open thread – November 8-9, 2019

by Alison Green on November 8, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Help!*

    Has anyone taken a step back from a “career”-type trajectory to something less demanding/more “job”-like, and if so, do you feel like you are shut off from ever returning to that higher-intensity career track in the future, or is it working out okay for you?

    I’m feeling really burned out and like I backed myself into a corner in the wrong profession, and I’m desperate for something totally different but I’m in my early thirties and I don’t want to regret any changes 10-15 years. down the road when my priorities might be different.

    2. Depressed and anon*

      I can’t help but I am with you too. I made a big-ish career change a couple of years ago and went back to grad school, and now I’m wondering if I made the right choice (of new career, not particularly interested in going back to my old career).

    3. Annie Porter*

      Oh wow! I just posted below about a kind of opposite situation.

      I had a demanding AF, upper-management position. I enjoyed it until I didn’t, and once I hit that wall, there was no turning back (it was a toxic environment with a terrible boss, which helped that wall come much sooner).

      Now I work for an awesome, progressive company, in a MUCH more relaxed environment (definitely still kind of career-trajectory, but more jobby than the last one, if that makes sense). My only problem is the salary difference.

      If it matters, I’m in my late thirties.

      I have ZERO regrets, I’m just feeling a bit of a financial pinch.

      1. Kiwiii*

        do you have a sense on if it’s your role or company that’s contributing the most to the difference? maybe in a year or three you can wiggle into something slightly higher paying.

        1. Annie Porter*

          That is what I’m hoping for. I was hired for a very specific role, but I can already see it expanding into unexpected areas. I expected the pay cut, but I’ve run into several unexpected expenses (such is life!) lately that are squeezing me a bit.

      2. Just Elle*

        Same. I was in a toxic, stressful, super demanding, terrible no good very bad “important” “career accelerating” job and I used to fantasize about qyuttubg a “job job”. My go to fantasy was a receptionist / ticket taker at a museum or something.
        But, student loans being what they were, it simply wasn’t an option.

        So instead I found a still-career-focused but not-make-it-or-break-it position with coworkers who seemed more interested in helping each other than stepping on each other to get to the top. Think, peak career will be a manager of a team, not director of a division. After 3 months of just plain sleeping through the night, I realize that my desperate sleep deprived situation was making me long for something I didn’t really want.

        I’m soooo much happier now and am so glad I didn’t go for the ‘easy job’ – I think I would have been bored out of my mind. I’m someone who really gets a lot of person value out of solving challenging work problems. I would have missed that in the job job. But it just also made it so I had a hard time with impossible problems like in my stressful job.

        Something that recently helped me put it all in perspective was a NYT article called “The opt out generation wants back in.” Its about high-power career women who quit to be stay at home moms, and how they felt 10 years later as they were easing back into entry level jobs. Not quite the same situation, but I found it highly relevant.

        1. Just Elle*

          But, just to play devil’s advocate… my husband quit his supervisor job at 28 to go back to school for welding and he LOVES it and is making tons of money. So its certainly never too late for a career change, if what you’re doing isn’t speaking to you… but I’d encourage you to figure out a path where you can still develop skills that relate to an increase in pay. PLC programmer is a great one, where you get fairly nice working conditions, with a relatively low ‘transition time’ because you can take community college classes at night.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I did. Quit a “career”-type job to be a receptionist for several years. Eventually got back on track with my “career”-type jobs, but I had a blast being a receptionist, and it was totally the right thing for me at the time. I don’t know that I’d recommend it, because you aren’t guaranteed to get back on your original path, but if you think the path back is doable, then go for it.

    5. baffledmouse*

      Also following because this is where I am at too. So burned out from nonprofit life and in my early 30s, not sure where I want to go from here. I’ve also realized what I thought I wanted to do for my career is not actually a good fit for me, but I have no idea what I want to do instead.

    6. Kiwiii*

      I think rather than assuming a more “job” role might be less demanding, it might do to figure out what you’d like to be doing? Like would you not your role if it did less of X or more of Y, would you be happier if you felt like you were making more of a difference, do you actually really like data entry and kind of miss it from an entry level role, would you rather be doing something similar to what you’re doing but more technical, or more personable, or from the user-side.

      Feeling backed into a corner doesn’t’ necessarily mean there aren’t any lateral moves that aren’t an option, and I feel like when humans are frustrated, they stop considering all the options.

      1. Help!*

        Thanks for your response, and everyone else’s in the thread so far! I guess that’s the rub…I don’t really know what I want to be doing. I have some idea that *maybe* I’d like a lateral/small step-down into something where the content of the work is slightly more interesting, but I’m the main household breadwinner and I don’t know if a lateral trade-off for slight salary reduction salary would actually make me happier…*sigh*.

        I *have* done a tremendous job socking away retirement savings the past few years while on this good salary…so on the one hand, I probably could afford a pay cut, but on the other hand, I keep having this (probably toxic) fantasy of super-early retirement if I can just suck it up and hang on for…some undetermined period of time…maybe I could just quit and stop working altogether when I’m like 45.

        1. Kiwiii*

          When my best friend turned 30 she had a Massive quarter life crisis and quit her nonprofit management job that she hated and started doing freelance work basically doing a couple creative aspects of the previous job for much more per hour than she’d been making before for like 20 hrs/week and walking dogs for like $10/hr for like 10 hrs a week and she’s leaps and bounds happier and only ended up with a small pay cut after taxes.

          I’m not saying you should do that, and i’m definitely not saying maybe you should quit your job to walk dogs, but maybe writing down a couple things you like about it and a couple things you wish you were doing might be a place to move forward from?

        2. Annie Porter*

          OMG, are you ME a year ago?

          I made myself a list of pros and cons of two options: retire early (between 50-55) and deal with this BS for 12-15 more years, or jump ship and possibly delay retirement.

          I realized that Option 1 was becoming less of an option at all as my patience was wearing thin much more quickly than I’d imagined it would. I feared I would snap and either quit on the spot or get fired when I couldn’t bite my tongue any longer, which would lead to an unpleasant third option. So if you’re THERE, then that may help make the choice for you!

          1. Help!*

            That’s very helpful to hear! Yes! I don’t want to end up a bitter, dead-wood kind of employee if that’s the alternative.

            1. Help!*

              Do you mean that it takes a toll to get to that early retirement age? Or that once they retire early, people fall into bad habits/don’t enjoy it as much as they thought?

              1. Annie Porter*

                I don’t think EVERY early retirement plan is a terrible idea. If you happen to be able to save enough to retire early, and you’re enjoying your work and not killing yourself to get there, it’s probably fine.

              2. RecoveringSWO*

                It seems like there’s a shared component of the FIRE/MMM people who can push through crummy jobs for early retirement. They convince their entire families to make a significant change in lifestyle to live frugally and all feel a large sense of accomplishment in their drive towards early retirement. They also don’t talk themselves into staying in a crummy job for that many years, just enough to live off that interest w/a little cushion.

                Everyone else I know who retired early just ended up with a 2nd career because they were too bored. These were lawyers, military officers, and i-bankers who ended up teaching or consulting. Since I don’t see myself in the FIRE/MMM camp, I would switch jobs instead of keeping the golden handcuffs on in a painful job.

            2. Mama Bear*

              And not to be morbid, but not everyone lives to retire, even early. IMO spend your time doing something you don’t hate with every fiber of your being. Life is too short and unpredictable.

              1. TM*

                THIS. Sadly, we are not promised. A terrible job will suck your life force and make you miserable. And people shouldn’t live like that even if they were guaranteed their retirement goal. And they are not.

        3. Arachnid Admin*

          Have you thought of taking the Myers Briggs test to find out how your interests line up with different careers? In my late 20s I was in a decent job with a clear trajectory ahead of me, but I wasn’t liking it as much as I should have been. I met with a career counselor three or four times and took the test, ended up leaving the job to attend grad school for an ancillary profession. I remember how tired and frustrated I was commuting to a job that bored me, even though I liked the people I worked with. Good luck to you.

          1. Help!*

            Sorry this is so late! I really like the idea of a career counselor — how did you find a good one?

        4. Pescadero*

          I have a similar problem…
          I know what I want to be doing… and that is nothing.

          Therefore – what I want to be doing is largely irrelevant, and jobs are “what is going to get me to retirement quickest with the least amount of effort and hassle on my part”.

          I’ve been working to retire since the first day I ever worked.

          1. TheMonkey*

            You are me. I am you.

            I have no goals to run a vineyard or repair airplanes or even take extended trips to see the castles of Europe, or whatever else it is that people want to do. I want to putter around the house doing nothing and not be beholden to anyone at any given time.

            I am hesitant to say this out loud IRL since everyone around me seems to have grand career aspirations to get to the top or some end-goal that they are working toward (see vineyard, etc. above).

            If hubs and I could just sort out the health insurance puzzle, we could just about manage it…

            1. emmelemm*

              It always comes back to the health insurance puzzle, doesn’t it?

              I have a friend who’s pretty ambitious and good at getting the jobs she wants, etc. She recently told me she’s trying very hard to retire at 55, so everything she’s doing is geared towards that. (She has a husband who works too, but she is the main breadwinner.) I have confidence in her that she could sock away enough money to retire early, but if you’re trying to buy your own health insurance AT 55, the cost is going to be sky-high, and even higher if and when the ACA breaks down.

            2. Minocho*

              I have a goal: To be totally free to play tabletop roleplaying games ALL THE TIME.

              Of course, I need other players for this work out. Hmm….

    7. Lena Clare*

      So, I had a break down in my early thirties to do with my career (which was vocational) at the time.
      I left for the sake of my health and, while it’s absolutely been the best decision I’ve ever made, it took me a long time to accept that it was the right thing for me to do.

      I felt that my qualifications, which I’d worked so very hard at!, were only useful for this job and now that I wasn’t doing this job what the hell was I good for doing?
      That was the problem really – my identity was so tied up in it that I found it excruciating to move on.

      Most people told me the jobs I were applying for were not suitable because I was either overqualified (true) or underqualified (also true).

      I got another job after volunteering for a while, in the company I was volunteering in.
      And I am now studying for a new degree and I couldn’t be happier. It’s taken a while. The prospects in my new job (which I’ve been in for years now!) are not great, neither is the pay, but the people are nice and the holidays and benefits are great, and – I wasn’t expecting this – it’s lead to other things in my personal and professional lives which I’d never have discovered if I hadn’t left.

      So break down, break through… whatever you want to call it.
      Good luck.

      1. Help!*

        Thank you so much for sharing your experience. It’s helpful to hear about others’ experiences striving toward some qualifications and then changing.

    8. londonedit*

      I did this. Early on in my career I worked my way diligently up the ladder, as I thought one was meant to do. Reached a certain point and ended up totally burnt out – hated the job, I wasn’t suited to it, it was all just awful. I realised that what I wanted to do was go back to the hands-on stuff that I actually enjoyed doing, and that I was actually reasonably good at. So now I have a mid-level role that involves just doing the hands-on stuff, and it’s great. The downside is that the pay is rubbish, but to me as long as I’m earning enough to pay the rent etc then I’d rather have less money in a job I actually enjoy doing.

      I probably have sabotaged myself to some extent, because in my industry there are quite clearly defined career tracks and if I suddenly wanted to get back on the higher-level train I probably would face quite a bit of resistance from employers who would want to know why I hopped off said train. Having said that, it’s also the sort of industry where plenty of people do have career trajectories that are outside the norm or that are less linear, and I could point to plenty of professional experience on my CV that gives me a really broad overview of the whole industry, so who knows, I might be OK. Not planning to test the theory out anytime soon, mind you!

    9. RecoveringSWO*

      If you want to eventually return to a higher-intensity career, does it need to be the same career? If not, do you think you would have the resources and desire to get a degree for a new higher-intensity career?

      I took a step back from my high-stress career with a “job” that was lower paying and lower stress. But I also applied for a professional degree. I think I would have been much more stressed about my future salary prospects if I didn’t know that I could leave for a higher paying career. When I did go back to school, I also went through the internship/job application process with an eye on finding a professional position that was less stressful than the original career I left. A degree is one option for a “backup path” towards another higher paying career.

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I didn’t take a BIG step down, I took a step back though for a couple of years.

      Is there any more junior roles you could slide into instead of actually removing yourself from the career itself?

      Case and point, I usually do business management/accounting management for small businesses. I stepped back from the manager role and did some EA work for awhile because I wanted less responsibility. Then I went for a very specific role in just accounting and shifted back into a more business management role, only in a more of a consultant role because again…I really just want that breathing room of remember what it’s like to be someone with a boss to answer to in some way instead of being left to wrangle 99 cats and 37 turkeys at once.

      But getting completely out of the running is difficult because the longer you are gone, the more struggle you’ll find getting into the saddle again. Lots of people want at least somewhat recent experience, so if it’s buried 5-10 years back you start getting that “I’m not patient enough to see if you can knock the rust off yourself or not…” kind of thing. [This is in the perspective of a hiring manager of course and so take that with a grain of salt because someone with experience getting back in may say that they haven’t struggled much at all but it’s what you’re up against in some eyes.]

    11. Quickbeam*

      I was in a high stress management function in my profession and I took a lower paying consultant role for 10 years. Then at 50, I got back into clinical practice again for the increased income. It was easier because I am a nurse but I didn’t regret those lower stress 10 years.

      1. Assistant Alpaca Attendant*

        I’m in a semi similar situation. I took a similar role in a smaller company with the same kind of work but with a dufferent audience. My title is similar, so it looks like a lateral move on paper. I don’t know if I want to try re-advancing later yet, so can’t speak to that yet. It’s been nice having more time for self care and being in a less stressful/toxic environment with awesome colleagues. I’m occasionally a little bored doing more “job” stuff. I was surprised that I have more to learn than just a new industry given that it’s a smaller place. I have more prestige and easier access to leadership on some of my projects, which feels like a mini advancement. It’s been a good balance overall so far, but took some adjustment and a grieving period for leaving old high powered job at more prestigious firm. Good luck!

    12. Sharkey*

      I did something like this recently, pulling back from more responsibility to less, though I stayed in the same industry. I did to to free up some bandwidth for creative projects and give myself some breathing space after a year with a lot of life-chaos. For me, it was definitely the right choice, but it depends a lot on what you want your job to do for you. In my case, I don’t care if my job brings me personal fulfillment, I really do just want to get a roof over my head & food on my table while doing something relatively satisfying. I really lucked out – I got a low-responsibility job at a startup whose mission I believe in, and it’s working really well for me.

      If you do decide to look for a lower-responsibility role, definitely pay attention to the culture/environment you’d be working in. A big part of what makes my role a great job is that I’m in a lovely environment with nice people, good perks, and the kind of office culture that I really jive with. The exact same role in a company without this stuff would be a LOT harder. What I’m saying is that if you want to downshift (and I don’t blame you one bit!), do what you can to ensure that the experience of ‘going to work’ will be a pleasant one – you won’t have ‘but I work on super important projects’ or ‘I shape the trajectory of the organization’ to keep you warm, so set yourself up to be as comfy as possible!

      1. Help!*

        Thank you for this. I do tend to over-invest my identity in my work. Objectively, I am in a friendly, low-stress environment, but I find the work boring and meaningless on an existential level, and I do tend to catastrophize about what people think of me, etc., so I dread personnel management duties. I’m going to give therapy another try to untangle all this too. It’s so hard to figure out whether my angst at work is “all in my head”, or if I’d actually be able to recover and regain my resiliency if I made a change — because any change, even good change, can be stressful, right? It’s so hard to judge when the right time is to make a change.

        1. Sharkey*

          Absolutely! I can relate to everything you’re saying here: it took me a lot of time & serious reflection on what I wanted out my work AND my life in order to land where I am now. Part of it was thinking about my life goals and weighing them against each other: if in 10 years I haven’t achieved Career Milestone X, do I care? Eh, livable. If in 10 years I haven’t done Creative Project Y, on the other hand, I’ll be really sad, so I guess Y really is my biggest priority.

          It was a hard call to make, definitely, and it was also a real adjustment, since I used to be a lot more ambitious and want ALL of the aspects of my life to be firing on all cylinders at all times. It helped me to look at work as one of the components of my life as a whole and really weigh them against each other, and then budget my energy & bandwidth as if they were dollars and cents to make sure that I had enough resources to pursue my biggest priorities.

          All of which is to say: I totally get how stressful that all is! Keep going to therapy – I did, & it really helped – and zoom out to get a look at the whole picture. Wishing you the best of luck – you got this!

          1. Perambulator*

            Thank you for this comment. I’m in the midst of trying to sort this out for myself. I’m facing a milestone birthday soon and somehow I just end up concluding, it’s too late, I’ll never be able to accomplish much of anything whichever way I go. Your reflection on the decisions you made is somehow really encouraging to me.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Picture yourself 20 years from now. What do you think 20 Year Older You would say to Current You.

              I read a short blurb one time that stayed with me. An elderly man was being interviewed in a nursing home. The interviewer asked, “What is your biggest regret?” The elderly man said, “That I did not take more chances.” He went on to explain that he was way too impressed with the risks involved and that limited his choices in life. If he had it to do again, he would have taken on more risks in order to have more opportunities and experiences.

              At some point it stops being about perfect execution and more about just being willing to try.

              1. Help!*

                I know! I’m so good at selling off my present for the future. The problem is that my skillful negative brain will say, “well, but what if that man had taken some exciting chances and ended up having to eat cat food to survive? He probably would have said he should have enjoyed staying with the sure thing” X-D

                1. Not So NewReader*

                  I hear ya.

                  Two points for your Negative Nancy/Ned:

                  1) A person can make cautious, practical choices all their lives and still end up in the latrine. Using my father’s life and my own life where both of us were wiped out by medical bills. We did the things a person is “supposed to do” and got wiped out anyway. Being cautious does not make one immune.
                  This leads me to my second point.

                  2)We can’t help what happens to us, we can only control our response to it. In the end there are things that are of more value than money when it comes to financial catastrophes.
                  These things are:
                  Creativity
                  Ability to think on the fly
                  Friends and/or family
                  Knowledge- our own
                  Knowledge- that of friends and/or family
                  Our ability to draw on past experiences to make good decisions in the present
                  Our ability to ask well chosen people for help
                  And last, commitment. Commitment to ourselves that we will bail ourselves out and get to a better place. This one is the toughest because it requires that we sustain that commitment, things get rough, don’t flinch and keep working at the problems.

                  Money cannot buy any of these things. These are thing we have to grow on our own.

                  See, it’s how we handle the smaller things that becomes building blocks for learning how to handle the larger life issues. If we don’t take reasonable, well chosen risks we never learn these tools and we do not have those coping mechanisms in place when we need them.

                  To be clear here I am not saying take up bungie jumping or hang gliding if these things are nothing you will ever have any success with. Put yourself in spots where you feel that you have at least a 50% chance of some success. Tricky part, keep doing this. Once you accomplish the challenges of Spot A, start looking for Spot B, carefully picking something that you think you can probably succeed at eventually. Inch yourself forward in this manner.
                  Until you see your own achievements it’s gonna be really hard to tell Negative Nancy/Ned to STFU. This can and will get easier.

        2. Just Elle*

          At first I found it so interesting that you are unhappy in your role because the work is boring and meaningless, but you think a “job job” (with presumably even less importance) will make you happier.

          But then I thought back to the job I enjoyed most in my life… it was a bra fitter while in college. I just got so much personal satisfaction out of helping women find bras that were comfortable and made them feel confident.
          So, maybe you could spend some time thinking about what it is you get satisfaction out of – helping people? Solving tough problems? Learning new skills? – and use that to figure out your next move. Maybe something as simple as moving to the same job in a company that provides a service you’re passionate about will help.

        3. Frankie*

          I have some similar tendencies to what you’re describing, and in my experience it follows me from job to job. BUT…there are jobs that push all those buttons much more, and I’ve started to move away from anything in those areas.

          The “dread” word stands out to me, because that’s what a teacher once told me about how to figure out whether you’re just anxious about something new, or whether you straight up shouldn’t do it. She said if you feel true dread, that’s the sign of a bad fit that you should probably not pursue, assuming you have options. So maybe you just need to be in a role that removes most personnel duties?

          The boring/existential stuff I can relate to, as well. Not in my current job, but definitely in most of my previous ones. I did have to take some risks and move out of one career to go into a totally different one. Some of it was luck, and some of it was taking the initiative and the risk, that got me into a job that’s a better fit. But it wasn’t a straightforward path, and I could never have predicted where I’d end up now. So you have to tolerate some ambiguity and accept that you really don’t know where you’ll end up. I had some structure to get me through that change, since I left my previous career to go back to school, and that’s where I got all my subsequent job experience and got my foot in the door where I work now. Not saying that’s a recommendation to go back to school, because that had its own issues, but it’s the mechanism that helped me through that inertia and indecision.

        4. Librarian1*

          Ooof, I’m struggling with this right now, too. My work is boring and feels meaningless to me and on top of it, I don’t get as much human interaction in my job as I’d like. I’m not in a highly-paid field, though, and it’s not a high-powered career. But being bored at work is rough.

      2. Chrysanthemum's The Word*

        “The exact same role in a company without this stuff would be a LOT harder. ”
        This is my exact predicament right now. I left a higher level job for a lower level at an organization whose mission I could stand behind. I wanted less responsibility to adjust to a non-toxic work environment while I was given the promise of advancement down the road.

        Four years in and I still love the mission and appreciate the work I do but the culture has not afforded me to make personal relationships with co-workers and in addition the advancement I was promised is not there. So, I’m lonely and unchallenged. I wish I had done a little more due diligence on the culture of my department before I landed here.

    13. The Ginger Ginger*

      I did this at 28. I had accidentally fallen into retail banking (through a part time college job) and was working as Branch Manager, and I was burned out and miserable. My health was suffering it was so bad. I went into a totally different field as an Account Manager (digital), and while it wasn’t entry level, it was definitely closer to that than to management. The respite that job gave me to recover was amazing. I no longer dreaded going to work, and I got my health back under control. I’ve been with that company for 7 years now, and I’ve parlayed that initial role into 4 internal moves and landed just recently as Product Director. Credibility at my other internal roles made the business willing to allow me to learn on the job and take on reach positions. It was the best decision I ever made. I still don’t dread going into work. And while my role right now is way faster paced than it’s been in the past, so far I feel okay about it. I’m also not afraid any more to try for a change, and I learned really early what my threshold for needing to make a change is. If you’re unhappy where you are, I absolutely encourage you to start looking for something else. You spend too much of your life at work to be unhappy with what you’re doing.

      1. ArtemisPrime*

        Very similar here- I was in my early 30’s working as a Branch Manager at a regional bank and was so unhappy and unhealthy that I took the first ‘job’ I could find that would allow me to pay my bills. It was in a completely different field and was considered entry level. Seven years later and the ‘job’ has turned into a career and I’m now filling the role of Compliance Officer at a growing software company. I am happier, healthier, better paid– not to mention the fact that I met my husband here as well (though I still advise folks against dating a coworker).

        2. Confused*

          I’m really sad to see that other people’s jobs are taking a serious health toll on them like mine is – I didn’t think I’d have this problem at 31.

    14. Sloan Kittering*

      Woof, I feel this. I moved to a big intense neurotic all-work city but I still have my small town sense of work-life balance, and I’m not sure how to back out!

    15. Policy Wonk*

      I did this when my kids were young and I needed a less demanding schedule. Took myself off the fast-track and moved into a job related to what I had been doing, but more process than policy oriented. However, I was still me, and continued to spot and raise issues that needed to be addressed, so my boss kept an eye on me. He tried to give me a couple of opportunities that I turned down because of the kids, and he stopped offering. Eventually, as the kids got older and more independent, I applied for – and got – a job that put me back on the fast track.

      If you think you are in the wrong profession, this model probably won’t work for you. But being in your thirties is still early in your career, so you have time to reinvent yourself. I work with a lot of people who are on second or third careers.

      1. Formerly Arlington*

        My experience as well…. and eventually I returned to more of a leadership role, when they were a bit older. No regrets, just maybe a few years’ delay I’m getting back to where I had been, career ladder and all…

    16. SQL Coder Cat*

      Oh, I did this!

      My childhood dream was to be a medical researcher. I got my master’s, got a spot in a lab, and spent the next two years stressed out of my mind. When we lost a grant, I got laid off- and my first reaction was relief, not panic. I decided that was a sign I needed to do something- anything- else. I found a similar paying job as a call center representative (medical research doesn’t pay that well). I spent twelve years between the two call centers I worked at, moving up to lower management positions both times. I also learned that I was great at business analytics and got my MBA during those years. Five years ago I moved into a business analyst career for the technical functions of a university, and I love it. It’s a career I’d never have considered had I followed my original plan. Call center work isn’t a lot of fun, but it does give you an opportunity to develop a lot of skills and gave me the time to explore what else I wanted to do with my life.

    17. Leela*

      I’m here right now and trying to decide how I feel about it! I was diagnosed with cancer and while it’s not bad enough to keep me from working, it is bad enough to keep me from some career-type positions.

      This is hard to say, and I’m going to guess it’s different for everyone, and I’m going to guess that I’d answer differently if you asked me now, 5 years from now, 10, 20, 30, onto my deathbed etc. But I’ll say that I’m trying to have my life be about more than work now. It wasn’t when I was younger, I grew up very poor and success was always held like a carrot in front of me that I could get if I just worked hard enough. Unfortunately I graduated university in 2008 and that’s seriously hurt a lot of people my age and younger for careers, as every field becomes as contract as possible, wages become lower across the board, and so on. Eventually I felt like I was just spinning my wheels and I jumped off for something that’s just a “job”, but I have so much free time. I’m making art again which I hadn’t done since high school, I’m picking up new skills, I spend a lot of time with friends/community and my life is way better. Now will I feel that way in 20 years when someone who stayed on my track might be making more? I’m not sure.

      I hope whatever you decide though, that it works out very well for you!

      1. Help!*

        Thank you so much for sharing your experience and shift in priorities. I hope your recovery goes quickly and smoothly.

        I also graduated college around the same time, and was also an overachiever who came out of a poor single-parent household, so I have probably been trying to reduce “risk” and add as much “safety” around me to distance myself from those financial difficulties. Perhaps that reflex isn’t serving me so well at this point.

      2. Earl of Lemongrab*

        This is where I’m at right now, looking at what Sarah Kenzior calls the “post-employment economy.” My big lucrative career-track contract role I’d been trapped in and hated for years got cut suddenly for corporate bullshit reasons, and I’m just… Over it? I keep looking at more career-track stuff where they want a thousand credentials for bad pay and not great benefits anyway, and I’m like, you know, if I wanna be compensated poorly, I’d rather be compensated poorly doing something I can stop thinking about when I get off work. Shit.

    18. Mama Bear*

      I think that your 30s is a fine time to realize the path you’re on is not what you want. I took time off from FT work when my kid was born and went back to FT work when she was in elementary school. It took a couple of years and a job hop but I feel like I’m back on track. If your main goals in life are things that can be achieved in different ways, then find the path that works vs staying in the path you already know is burning you out.

    19. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Don’t do it unless you are absolutely sure it is what you want to do. I did it but not by choice. I had a rewarding but high demand career which I loved. I got laid off during the great recession. Nine years later, I am making only 1/3 of what I was making before. I have a very unfulfilling job and I hate it.

    20. I'm Here For It*

      Unfortunately I have no advice to give. Just here to say, I’m in a similar boat and am experiencing similar anxieties. I hope you find your path!

    21. RecoveringSWO*

      Are you at a large company right now? If you’re at a smaller company, you might be able to lateral into a big company where expectations for an employee with your experience are lower and responsibilities are more defined. To me, that still shows growth on your resume. If that’s an option, you can take it and spend the next few years deciding whether you’d be happy there or want to restart climbing the ladder in your career or completely change fields.

      1. Help!*

        I am at a smaller but prestigious company, and I have actually been given the chance to move around to different positions/responsibilities. I guess I’m reaching the point where I’ve tried everything they can offer me in terms of chance — so maybe I have to look for a different company.

    22. Kenzi Wood*

      I took a different route entirely, where I quit my full-time job and became a self-employed writer. I started it as a side hustle and used the earnings to pay off my student loans, which made me financially independent enough to take a risk. I’ve been self-employed for a year and I would never go back to a traditional career. If you want it badly enough, there are GOOD alternatives to the “crash and burn” career path so many of us fall into.

    23. JobHunter*

      Yes, I am feeling professionally isolated. I have been trying to get back to my field but it has been a hard road.

      If you want to change fields, do it! It might be harder to convince a hiring manager to bring you in for an interview but if you show growth in the direction you want to go you can still get interviews. For example, I have been keeping busy with relevant volunteer activities and education/certifications. I have had a few interviews this past year, so my CV must not be conpletely off-putting.

    24. zora*

      Yep. I was super burned out in nonprofits and it had caused a lot of mental health issues I hadn’t had before.

      I went back to a temp agency and started looking for Admin jobs, because I can do those in my sleep. It’s been 5 years, and I guess here are my Pros/Cons:
      PROS
      1. I’m actually making more than I was in nonprofits. It’s sort of below average for my area, but it’s enough to live easily without having to worry about finances. But I do live pretty frugally (rent a small apt, buy second hand, cook a lot of meals)
      2. I ended up at a company where everyone is super nice and supportive of each other. My boss is really appreciative and easy to work with. It’s a very positive atmosphere, which has really helped my mental health.
      3. I’ve now gotten on meds, have regular talk therapy, and am making some real progress on my mental health which I don’t think I could have done while still in a high pressure job.
      4. I can mostly leave work at work, I am nonexempt, mostly am out the door at 5 on the dot.

      CONS:
      1. I have struggled a little bit with feeling pathetic and lame for being a ‘secretary’ in my 40s. It’s definitely not what I ever thought I would be doing at this point. Not that this is actually true, but jerkbrain says I’m an under-achiever, especially in the Bay Area where women younger than me are founding and running their own companies.
      2. I don’t want to get back into my previous career track, but it has been hard to figure out how to get back to “A” career track. Although, I’ve been doing some networking recently, and I’m thinking that’s mostly in my head, and it isn’t as big of a barrier to getting a higher-level job as I think it is.
      3. I’ve definitely put a dent in my earning power/retirement savings, if I had rethought my career sooner, I could be making a LOT more money in this area (like 50-75% more).

      On balance, I am ok with it, I think I did the right thing for me at the time. But this is with inherited depression and anxiety that showed itself in my mid-30s, so that might not be the case for everyone. But I also am really starting to learn that there’s always time to make a change. I think if your priorities change, you can adjust! Literally nothing is permanent, and it’s never too late. Remember, Julia Child published her first cookbook at 50! :)

      1. Perambulator*

        Zora,
        Thanks for sharing this. Reading others’ thoughtful eflections on their struggles and resolutions in this area is really helpful and encouraging. I’m not the one who posted the question, but I’m so appreciative they did and for all of you weighing with your thoughts and experiences.

    25. Quinalla*

      I haven’t stepped back, but I’ve certainly been clarifying what is and isn’t important to me in my career and have been seeking out more of the parts I like and delegating/not taking on as many of the things I don’t like. This isn’t a possibility for everyone to do, but I’m in a small regional office of a larger company, so we all wear a lot of hats and I wear more than anyone, but I’ve been trying to better focus myself on where I am my best and really enjoy work (and this includes things I want to grow and get better at) and/or on things that only I or a small few can do. Its better for me and my company, so win win!. But first, I had to really dig in and figure out what are the things that I really love about my job and what things I actively don’t want to do and what things I don’t care either way. Then I came up with a strategy with my boss for how to focus better.

      This is NOT to say I don’t do things I don’t like anymore, I do just like anyone, but it is much less.

      Not sure if something like that is possible for you? Or even if not, maybe just figuring out what you do and don’t like about your current job and what things you think you would like to be doing going forward so you can better figure out your next steps?

      I’m also in a position where I can be more flexible with my hours and I’ve been taking full advantage of that (with the blessing and encouragement of my boss as we are trying to shift our culture on this to be even more flexible) and that also has been very helpful in making the work/life push/pull much easier to manage.

    27. Asenath*

      I went through a major job change. It was incredibly rough, largely because I held on too long instead of moving on. I am now years into a steady, but lower-status and lower-paid job. I’ve long since realized that I was totally unsuited for the first job, should have left earlier, and am now absolutely grateful that I did finally make a move. Going back to that field was not an option – I burned a lot of bridges – but for a while I tried applied for other “better” jobs in my newer area, until I realized that I was really quite happy where I was, and not inclined to take a chance in something else new. Being around long enough to get good at what I do, if I do say so myself, and to hear why some of those other jobs I was applying for were open (I found out some places looking to hire had a reputation for being dysfunctional and having lots of turnover). helped a lot. I wasn’t so desperate for something – anything – better than Original Job that I needed to consider such places, since I was happy where I was.

      1. Help!*

        This is really encouraging and helpful to hear!! One part of my worry has been whether I could really accept and be happy with lower-status/lower-pay. I’m glad you found this was possible.

    28. The Meow*

      Not my story, but my cousin turned down an opportunity to become partner at a Bigly Important Firm; and instead quit her job altogether and taught yoga for a year.

      She said she tried to imagine what life would be like 5-10 years if she accepted the partnership offer. It would basically be lots of schmoozing and make sales pitches to rich white dudes and she saw no appeal in it. *Everyone* thought she was crazy to turn down such a lucrative and prestigious opportunity. Had she accepted she would be the first woman of colour and youngest person ever in her firm to be made partner.

      She wasn’t sure what she wanted to do but this wasn’t it. So she quit, travelled, did some yoga teaching as a side job, and read lots of books. She eventually went back to a similar role but in a non profit organisation. She has since stayed in this area and loves what she is doing.

      Recently she met up with a couple of guys who was offered partnership at the same time as her (who did accept). They were outrageously wealthy and well known in the industry but also overworked, stressed, and their health was also suffering.

      I don’t think she has ever regretted her decision.

    29. Meepmeep*

      I did this. After about 3 years in the wrong career, I switched to tutoring. It was not a “career”, but it paid well enough, I was debt-free and single so my financial requirements were minimal, and I had a very good time for a few years. Then I went back to school and got into another high-powered career track. I don’t feel like I lost out on anything, and the career change worked out really well for me.

    30. lobsterp0t*

      I have and I had to overcome several stages of changing my mindset.

      First I was dismissive of the “stopgap job” I thought I had taken.

      Then it kicked my ass.

      Then I found a way to make it meaningful and learn and grow from it.

      Recently I got told I was setting a high bar for my role group.

      And it’s really amazing to feel like I’m growing where I’m planted and there isn’t a track to follow and I’m just thriving?

      I don’t have to chase this or any other track. I can change tracks if I decide that I want to be ON a track at all. My mental health is great. I recently had an opportunity to get back into a field in a senior role at a small charity and… I chose to pass it up and stay where I am. I feel like I’ve given myself an opportunity to explore other things in life, still grow professionally, and also not literally dying from stress and misery.

      I no longer worry that I derailed my career. I think I probably saved it by stepping off the track I was on, because it was the wrong fit for me. it feels like a valuable meditation on identity because right now my job is the least interesting part of me? And it isn’t a defining adjective in my existence. And I remain equally ambitious and driven and hard working and motivated – it’s nice to know that those things are true even though I’m not in a senior role anymore.

  2. Even pluviophiles get fed up of the rain now and then*

    I’ve just applied for a job within my company and have been told by 2 people (one of whom is the shortlister) that they are worried that I am taking too much on because I’m studying also and this post is more hours, plus I’ve been off in the past with a health issue (which is now resolved)!

    I’m pretty cross about this. They seem to be going into the selection process with a bias that is unfair to me. I have made no mention of flexible working in my application (I don’t need it!), I’m healthy and well and in a good place, and feel more than capable of doing the job, but I feel like they are just putting their own assumptions onto it!

    How should I proceed if they bring it up in interview?

    1. pally*

      If they bring this up, ask them to explain what they perceive as the issue(s).

      Then address their concerns as they bring them up.

      If they don’t bring it up, you might ask them to express any concerns they might have regarding your ability to do the job. Ask them to put it on the table so you can have the opportunity to address and dispel their faulty assumptions.

    2. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      “if they bring it up”
      I wouldn’t wait for them to bring it up. I would deal with it head on. “I’ve been told there are specific concerns about my ability to this job and I would like to address them now.”
      This is actually helpful. It sucks that they think this, but better the devil you know.

      1. designbot*

        Agreed. I’d also address the health thing head on, like “A couple of people have brought up a previous, resolved, illness as a reason not to take on this role, and without getting deep into medical details there’s simply no indication that this would be an issue.”

    3. AnonyNurse*

      If you’re in the US, not considering you for a promotion based on perceived disability would be illegal. And the person responsible for the short list told that is happening. And I would use the words Allison always advises, “I don’t want the company to get in trouble …”. However, based on terms you used, I’m not sure if you’re in the US. If that’s the case, I hope wherever you are also has legal protections for workers. Good luck!

      1. Mobuy*

        Sure, but if they had a health issue in the past that made them less reliable or take a lot of time off, the company might not want to promote them to a higher-stress, increased-hours position. I think that’s perfectly fair. However, if the health issue is resolved, I think pluviophiles needs to address the issue. “I have heard that there is some concern about my ability to do the job due to Sickness. I’m happy to report that Sickness has been resolved, so it should not impact my ability to do Job in any way.”

        1. employment lawyer*

          “if they had a health issue in the past that made them less reliable or take a lot of time off, the company might not want to promote them to a higher-stress, increased-hours position. I think that’s perfectly fair”

          Still illegal in the U.S. The ADAAA expanded the definition of individual with disability to protect employees with a medical history of disability from discrimination based on either that history or a perception of disability. If someone is the most qualified person for a promotion, I don’t think it’s fair at all for an employer to penalize them because they *used to* have a health issue beyond their control.

        2. Even pluviophiles get fed up of the rain now and then*

          I’m in the UK, and like in the US, it’s illegal to discriminate against someone for actual or perceived disability, now or in the past.

      2. LilySparrow*

        Being a student is not a disability or a protected class. It’s a valid concern to question whether someone who also has another major committment can take on increased responsibility.

        OP didn’t say they had a disability. They had a prior health issue, which is resolved. If it seriously impacted their track record at work in some way (for example, if they were unable to participate in a project or training that would have given them necessary experience for the new role), that’s a valid consideration.

        Or if the way they handled the health problem caused issues for others – not asking for help when needed so things didn’t get done; not communicating appropriately about absences; overestimating their productivity and giving unrealistic timeframes they couldn’t meet…

        There are a lot of possible concerns here that may be completely relevant in considering someone for an expanded role.

        1. employment lawyer*

          The ADA’s definition of disability is extremely broad — previous medical conditions can count so long as they were not transitory AND minor. Assuming that OP’s condition was serious at the time, it may qualify them as an individual with a history of disability who is protected from discrimination under the ADA.

          1. Even pluviophiles get fed up of the rain now and then*

            This is the same as in the UK. In fact the Equality Act here covers the same defintion of disability discrimination as it does in the US, just with different wording.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      If you’re hearing it’s a question, I’d bring it up directly in the interview, don’t wait for them. Possible script:
      “I’m interested in a chance to dig in to a more challenging role, now that my health issues are resolved”
      “Once my health issues resolved, I started my course of study, which will be completed at X date. I know I’ll need to be at the top of my game in time management until then, but I’ve thought about how to prioritize the overall workload, and I think it’s workable.” (and do actually think about it, and have some concrete steps in case they dig in, like ‘spend more on home services (cleaning / grocery shopping)’ or ‘take a lower course load and extend my course of study by a semester’)

      1. Even pluviophiles get fed up of the rain now and then*

        Thanks, I really like this script. I’m going to think about how I can best adapt it to my situation.
        I agree that it’s best to proactively discuss it, as it’s part of the “why I think I’m a good fit for this post” answer.

    5. LGC*

      I think they’re coming from a good place, but…yeah, I totally understand why you’re cross about it.

      But also, I would seriously listen to this – especially since you have a history of health issues! It’s not totally fair, but I think that their thought process is, “Pluviophile has already had health issues and they’re doing a ton right now – is handing them more demanding work going to be the best decision?” That’s one of the downsides of internal promotions – they know your strengths, but they also know your weaknesses.

      I’d just address it head-on, as others have suggested. And I would consider how you’d balance your studies and your work. How many more hours is this new position? Would you need to reduce your courseload? These are all good things to consider before the interview. I know you’re confident that you can handle it, but I still think it’s a good idea to think about it – just as it would be for any position. You don’t need to give a detailed action plan, nor should you – but if you can drop down to part-time for a semester and then ramp back up (for example), that might help smooth the transition.

      1. Even pluviophiles get fed up of the rain now and then*

        Thanks, I appreciate your thoughtfulness and tact in your answer :)
        You’re quite right:
        I have thought very hard about this post, and I wouldn’t have applied for it if I didn’t think I could do it both in terms of what’s required and in fitting it in life; but of course they don’t know that, and so it’s up to me to show them why I can do the job and that includes showing them that my time management is frickin awesome and I’ve weighed the risks to my health and deemed them manageable.

    6. The Happy Intern*

      If they bring it up, the best thing you can do is provide examples of when you’ve mitigated situations of being overloaded! That way you can prove to them that you’re capable of handling a big work load with your tasks outside of work without just giving them blind (and useless) reassurance. If you can genuinely back up your claim of it not being an issue, then they’re going to be far more likely to believe you!

      And I wouldn’t be cross about it – it sounds like they’re legitimately looking out for you. If they knew you had a medical history that caused you to be away, that you’re taking classes outside of work, AND applying for a new job with a heavier workload, of course they’re going to want to make sure that you won’t burn out within a couple of months! It’s not just kind of them to consider your overall wellbeing (not necessarily medical but stress levels and whatnot), but it’s also smart of them to make sure that they’re not going to hire someone that may ultimately be unable to perform the job – everyone loses in that scenario.

      1. LilySparrow*

        Yes, I’d try to separate it in your mind and look at how the illness impacted you at work. If you had been in this new position when you got sick, would your approach to workload, communication and productivity have been excellent, or a problem?

        Were any relationships on your team or between teams damaged because of the way you dealt with your illness (asking for accommodations, calling out sick, managing deadlines)?

        Are there other internal candidates who just got more experience in the meantime, that you couldn’t get because you were dealing with health stuff?

        What did you learn from the experience of dealing with your illness that will make you even better in this new role?

        I’m not saying there’s no bias, or that you did anything wrong. I’m suggesting these things so you can approach the interview with constructive things to talk about.

        If you go in there angry and with a defensive mindset that starts at “this is unfair,” then you’re not going to give a good interview. You have to put your head in a different place so you can demonstrate the ability to handle more responsibility. Not just with words, but with your whole approach.

        Focus on the common goal of great outcomes in the work, and how you can help make that happen. If you’re focused on yourself and what you deserve or what you can/can’t handle, that doesn’t inspire confidence.

  3. Feeling Slighted?*

    I’m not sure if I should feel slighted, or if all of this was human error that seemed to effect me. I work PT for Company G and rarely work for them. Company G is a llama grooming company. We are allowed to select the shifts that we want to work and a manager will confirm if we are the one they selected to work the shift. We are paid hourly and sometimes get mileage, depending on the location. 

    – Nobody on our staff wanted to travel to Further Away location (~160 miles round trip for me). This shift was late evening (not a lot of traffic) and fit my schedule. I agreed to take it after negotiating for a higher hourly rate plus mileage after 30 miles, making it worth my time. This shift involves me needing to purchase products on a company issued credit card. When I went to purchase something, I found out that nobody checked to see if my company card was activated (I didn’t know that they get turned off for inactivity) and I had to go back and forth with them via text and finally get the card activated. 

    – Sometimes we need to go to the company storage unit (we are paid for this time) to get llama grooming supplies. The person in charge of the storage unit, Anna, texted me a few days before and said my llama grooming kit would be ready on Wednesday and you can pick it up anytime before having to groom your llama. Great! I texted her the info I had to get into the storage unit (the unit #, the combination to the lock, address etc.) to make sure that it was still the same. She then asked me what llama I was grooming and when. Turns out she forgot to make a kit for me and she was out of town now. She asked a different storage unit manager to make the kit. I ended up having to get my llama grooming kit the morning my llama needed to be groomed.

    – To groom llamas in my state, my company has to have a llama grooming permit. The llama groomers must carry this permit on them (it’s a piece of paper saying Company G is allowed to groom llamas in this state). The copy that I had expired a year ago so I asked for an updated llama grooming permit from the manager, Kate. It is a BIG DEAL if we don’t have this permit on us if State Employees were to stop in and ask to see the permit. It even says it in our State Laws Regarding Llamas Document that we must have this permit with us. 

    Kate responds saying she has never seen this piece of paper and has never been asked for it. She’s never had it herself and will need to ask her higher up for it. I even sent her the screenshot I had of the expired one to show her what I meant. I did all of this a few days prior to my llama grooming shift. The day of my shift, I asked her again for the permit. She sent me a screenshot of it opened on her phone and it’s small but readable. I asked her where I can get the actual PDF file of it (company shared drive, etc.) I told her that I would to ask my llama grooming client if I could borrow their printer to print the permit (The llama grooming client will definitely have a printer and they will be in trouble too if I didn’t have the permit so that wasn’t an issue) since technically we are supposed to have a printed copy. Her response was “IDK.” Luckily, no State Employees came to check up on the llama grooming.

    1. Colette*

      I don’t think you should feel slighted. If I were you, I’d be concerned about Kate’s lack of knowledge about a required permit. In general, this seems disorganized – is that the norm for this company? – but nothing seems deliberate or personal.

      1. Kiwiii*

        Yeah, if this falls into a larger pattern of disorganization it’s really weird, but the only actually concerning part is the lack of knowledge around the permit. Maybe check in with someone else to ensure your training materials are up to date/that you’re still required to carry the permit?

        1. Feeling Slighted?*

          We definitely still need this permit.

          Tara, a manager at another llama grooming company, always sends the permit out along with the week’s schedule with the phrase “must have permit with you.”

          1. Door Guy*

            I count myself lucky that no state agency ever dropped by on one of my jobs a few years ago. I didn’t even know it existed. When I left them to work for a competitor, I was given my permit after the training and told I had to keep it on me, not just in my truck but on person, at all times.

      3. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        I’m not at all surprised, I had a boss hide a display-required permit in her office for 60 days, and when I did an audit it turned out she was letting llama groomers work with expired certifications.

        Pretty much everywhere I worked, speaking up about this got you slammed as not a team player. Because closing when the permits aren’t in place is “bad customer service.”

        1. Princesa Zelda*

          At a place in food service I used to work at, I found out I was the only person who actually had a food handler’s permit. I brought it to management’s attention and the response was a big shrug. I stayed a while longer, because I needed the schedule, but I felt no qualms about leaving the place. It was a pit of dysfunction.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I wouldn’t take it seriously.

      But holy SH*T, this woman needs to be removed from her position immediately.

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      It’s not personal but, wow, Company G doesn’t have their act together at all. I wouldn’t work with them again if at all possible. I hope you’ve received your payment already, because this has the signs that your check will be a month late, short your mileage, and/or at the lower rate than you negotiated.

      1. Feeling Slighted?*

        Already been paid for both the hours and the mileage and correctly

        The payroll system is another labyrinth but the employee enters the hourly rate they are supposed to be getting but the managers have to approve it. So you know, eleventy bajillion dollars an hour wouldn’t fly.

        The mileage is an expense report that they process separately from payroll and you see the amount you are supposed to be getting. Believe me, I made sure it was correct.

    4. Mrs_helm*

      Seems like a lot of work to put in…before you actually work. Hopefully it is worth it for the $ or the ❤️.

      Agree with other that this seems ‘not personal” and more like disorganized or people just don’t care about professionalism?

    5. Not So NewReader*

      This isn’t personal. They do this “at” everyone, that is to say, this is poorly organized company.

      But I will say for some places it is also called “Tuesday”. Sometimes everything I touch at work just crumbles, the day is a wreck. My only hope is to get home safely and start over tomorrow. Usually the next day is better. Some times recurrences can be prevented by different planning, or added steps.

      For take-a-ways on your examples here I would:

      1) Start a new routine of making sure my card was activated when I received it, as opposed to waiting until I needed it.
      2) Keep a spare llama grooming kit on hand, so the one I ordered would be the replacement and I was free to go do the work. I could pick up the replacement later.
      3) Start a routine of checking my llama grooming permits on a set annual schedule, as opposed to waiting until I needed it to check it.

      This can feel like doing other people’s work for them. However, I am not willing to be caught doing something against regulations. So my concern about jail time tops my concern about doing others’ work for them. I will save my own butt first and foremost.
      I am also unwilling to work without proper supplies available, IF I have any control over that matter. So I will drag stuff in before I need it so I am ready. Sometimes it’s unavoidable and the stuff has to come last minute. Nothing we can do in that case.

      1. valentine*

        Be sure to include the hours you spent dealing with everyone and any related driving that wasn’t to go groom.

      2. Feeling Slighted?*

        I’m just seeing your comment!

        #1 – I hope this was a one-time deal. There were funds posted to my card so I assumed all was well. If I am inactive for awhile with Company G, I will definitely follow up to make sure my card is active.

        #2 – I have basic llama grooming supplies in my car but my company requires their specific supplies, which are to be picked up at their location, which they pay us to do.

        #3 – Definitely a good idea but again, I hadn’t worked for Company G in ages so I only worried about the permit when I got another llama grooming shift.

  4. extra anon today*

    The conversation around yesterday’s letter about tracking a coworker’s time off made me decide to share the absurd situation I’ve been in at work for the last 6 months.

    I have a coworker, A, who works in a separate location from the rest of the team. When I started a little over a year ago, I was informed that for medical reasons, A sometimes was away for a week or so, so I would be cross-trained in his job. This was fine – I went to his office, learned everything from him, and felt pretty prepared. Not long after, he had to be away, so I went to cover.

    And he didn’t come back.

    For the last 6 months, the rest of the team (at various times either 3 or 4 of us) have been covering this extra position. This involves a lot of trouble, back-and-forth, and whatnot. Throughout this period, A has called in sick every. Single. Day. Individually.

    I know from my boss (her oversharing and boundary issues are a whole different problem) that A has been uncooperative and often uncommunicative throughout this process. (He takes a long time to get doctor’s notes, etc.) Despite the absurdity of this situation, it’s only in the last month that the termination process has begun, although my boss is for some reason pretending it’s not happening.

    Did I mention that one time, A assured us that he would be back the next week, and then spent that week calling out each day for a plumbing issue that apparently popped up?! There have also been unapproved holidays during this period… and while covering for him, we haven’t been able to figure out what on earth he did all day when he WAS at work. There are things left undone, and the workload itself just isn’t that high.

    This is a result of lazy management above us, my own boss not taking appropriate action, and the bureaucratic nature of the job, but the whole thing is so frustrating I want to scream!

    Important note: I don’t doubt that my coworker is experiencing health issues. But the way he has handled this is completely inappropriate, and makes it tough for other people with chronic illnesses to be taken seriously.

    No advice needed, really, just a vent. But please tell me your weirdest job abandonment stories!

    1. Yorick*

      I worked in a daycare over the summers, and I didn’t have a regular class, I would cover so people could take their lunch breaks and then go in the biggest class in the afternoon.

      One day, I went in to the 3 year old room so she could go on her lunch break. She never came back. I was in the 3 year old room for the rest of the summer. And 3 year olds are the worst!

      Some time later (I think weeks), I dropped a clipboard with pieces of lined paper (that I almost never had any reason to use), and noticed one of the lower ones had writing on it. It was the 3 year old teacher’s handwritten resignation letter that she had buried in this clipboard.

      2. NovemberNovember*

        Same thing happened to me, only in the 4s room. Apparently it had happened before. Daycare is fun that way!

        1. Door Guy*

          My wife worked at one of those daycare places, she loves working with kids (she is a supervisor at the SACC program currently) but it was so disorganized and mismanaged she could only hold out for like 3 weeks even as a part time worker.

          We had both pushed it entirely out of our minds until we were cleaning up old tax documents a few weeks ago and found her W2.

      3. I Go OnAnonAnonAnon*

        Years ago, I was on the board at a parent-run preschool. In my role, I had regular meetings with my board co-chairs and the executive director. The exec director was new (~3 months into the role) and wasn’t popular with the staff, as she had to implement/enforce new policies that they didn’t like but which were necessary so that the school could continue/survive. The board was very supportive of her, though, and we did all we could to assist her.

        One Monday, my co-chair and I arrived for our regular meeting and waited for ED to show. And waited, And waited. After 45 minutes, we went into the office to see if her purse, etc., were still there and she’d perhaps stepped out.

        On her desk we found a note, hand-scrawled *in crayon*, that ended with the words, “And NEVER contact me again!”.

        2. Toads, Beetles, Bats*

          Very unprofessional, terrible thing to do to the school. Also: I kinda want to have dinner with this woman.

      5. Fact & Fiction*

        OMG! I had something similar happen but it was my son’s babysitter at the time. He was around a year old and his former amazing babysitter decided she and her husband were no longer up to caring for older children (they’d kept him since I went back to work when he was 9 weeks old). So the second babysitter cared for our son in her home and everything seemed to be fine, until she had a death in the family and said we’d need a backup babysitter for a few days.

        So we took our son to our backup babysitter and this went on for over a week where the original babysitter got really weird about saying she couldn’t yet care for our son and then she started ignoring our calls entirely. And then the backup babysitter showed us the resignation letter she found TUCKED INTO THE DIAPER BAG that had been there this entire time. And our original babysitter just never mentioned it, apparently waiting for us to find it rather than admitting she was resigning.

        SUCH a frustrating and WTF moment. Luckily the backup babysitter agreed to take our son on full-time and she was amazing. I just don’t understand how someone can secretly resign like that without even telling anyone…

    2. Jellyfish*

      A former boss was… well, I don’t have many nice words to describe her. She had a lot of technical skill and knowledge, but her soft skills were such that management really was not a good option for her. Yet she was a manager.

      Near the end of her time in this particular position, she started working from home more frequently. A couple times a week usually – no biggie, she could do that. Honestly, the office was a lot more peaceful when she was gone, and she told us the higher ups in corporate were fine with it. No one in our little local office had any reason to question that.

      Then she stopped coming in at all. She’d always been difficult to contact, so the corporate office 500 miles away didn’t initially notice anything amiss when she missed emails and didn’t answer her office phone. Then one day the VP showed up unexpectedly. She asked for my boss. Confused, we said, “Boss hasn’t been in the office for eight weeks. We thought you knew?”

      Apparently my boss had never been cleared to WFH at at, much less for two months. We had a new manager within the week.

    3. voyager1*

      That does sound wild.

      I would add though, letters like the one about the spreadsheet always generate a ton of responses. I think at some point locking the comments would be wise. How many “yikes” or “eye rolling” or whatever one up variations of that does the LW need? Sure it it is entertaining in the same way a train wreck is, but it really only adds to the toxicity of the internet as a whole.

      1. Zona the Great*

        What an interesting comment to make on a Friday open thread. We wait all week to be able to tell each other these tales. Don’t read if too negative, I’d say.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        I’m actually with you on ‘ugh, pile-on, please stop!’, but there is a bonding component to it too. We’re sounding off to remind our tribe we are still here. When the tribe’s not physically near each other, and we don’t have like / dislike / emojis, more comments happens.

        1. Filosofickle*

          I’d really like a like button! So many insightful, clever, funny things are written here that I’d like to acknowledge but don’t always warrant a new comment.

      4. Delphine*

        I don’t disagree. At some point, it stops being conducive to the reason for posting the letter. I don’t think I’d ever write a letter to AAM that would result in a pile-on, but the possibility doesn’t really encourage me to write in at all.

    4. Alianora*

      That’s strikingly similar to the way a fellow temp abandoned a summer job I had. Except he wasn’t using sick time, he just called in every day to say he wasn’t coming, for the remaining two month period. Eventually he asked our manager for a reference. I don’t think he got it.

      1. only acting normal*

        Well your manager could give an honest positive reference “Temp was extremely diligent about calling every day to say he wasn’t coming to work.”

    5. QCI*

      Had a new hire coworker at old job. One day he’s a no call no show. Boss calls the number he gave when hired, his roommate and/or girlfriend answered and said he got on a bus and headed to florida out of the blue. Boss goes “huh, so…can you bring us his work shirts?”. I don’t remember if we got them back or not. He had god awful breath so we were happy he left.

    6. Anonanon doo doo doo doo doo*

      At my old school, one of the 5th grade teachers never came back from lunch! She just abandoned her class of 10 year olds!

      1. Garland Not Andrews*

        My sister did that. She was teaching special ed, working with individual students at the time. She went to lunch with her husband, dropped him back at his work, pulled a stack of money from the bank and left. Took a couple of weeks to track her down. She has never gone back to teaching. Too bad, she was a great teacher.

      2. Door Guy*

        My school had a 6th grade teacher do that. One day he was just gone and no one knew anything (or at least admitted to knowing anything).

        No happy ending, though, as a few months later we all found out where he went when he showed up on the evening news when it reported about his conviction after he was arrested trying to meet what he thought was a 13 year old boy in the next state but was actually a police officer.

      1. ampersand*

        My interpretation was that he wasn’t on FMLA and therefore called in daily, and the higher ups didn’t want to deal with it so allowed it to happen.

    8. spock*

      My team was growing and needed a third coordinator as soon as possible. We spent months trying to find someone, finally one person accepted an offer and we were all relieved, especially the other coordinators this person would be helping. Because of the holiday season, they weren’t scheduled to start for another month or two from when they accepted but we decided it was worth it and stopped looking for anyone else.

      Come their first day and they just don’t show up! Eventually we learned that they’d accepted another job and just… didn’t let anyone at our company know. Best part is they were recommended by someone else at the company. So they were extremely rude to us AND didn;t seem to care about the friend who vouched for them.

      1. Joielle*

        Was it at a hospital? Your missing employee might have been my sister-in-law, haha.

        Once, my sister-in-law accepted a job, kept interviewing, accepted a second job, and then just… didn’t tell the first one. Three weeks went by. The weekend before she was supposed to start at the first job, she called me to ask if I could help her write them a letter to tell them she wasn’t coming in Monday, that would make them not be mad at her in case she wanted to work there in the future. I told her that I did not think there was a combination of words in the English language that could accomplish that.

        She never contacted the first job and just ignored their calls until they stopped calling. She’s now been through three jobs since this happened less than a year ago, so I kind of think the first job dodged a bullet!

    9. Mama Bear*

      Well, there’s been a few…

      There’s the one where my spouse had to fire someone who went AWOL and due to red tape and HR ineptitude it took a year…

      Or the one where the guy was at the office holiday party on a Friday, we had agreed to do work over the weekend so he took his laptop and we never heard from him again. Months later he showed up on FB and we think that rather than be killed in a snowdrift (bad weather that night) he was probably arrested and put in jail for a short time. He’d only worked with us for a few weeks and his emergency contact was a roommate who had no idea where he was. We never did get the laptop back.

      Or the one early in my career where the coworker didn’t have a home phone or cell and simply didn’t show up…eventually she was tracked to her home state halfway across the country. She just got fed up and moved and never told anyone. They fired her for abandoning her post and she still wanted to argue about having to mail back her badge and keys.

      Or most recently the school counselor who vanished while I was in the middle of getting her help with something and I had a heck of a time getting any resolution from the school. I didn’t care who did the thing, just that the thing got done! There was no backup and for weeks they didn’t realize no one was checking her email/following up with parents. Took them months to find an interim counselor for the last month or so of school and that person was replaced by the following fall. It was a huge mess.

      The one that stands out most is the coworker who went out on medical leave after a car accident. One day we were all called into a meeting and told by HR that they discovered she was actually serving jail time when she was on short term disability for a minor surgery (that she did have). What really happened was she was arrested for something related to the accident and was out on work release to a family friend’s company but didn’t tell our company any of it. I had to witness the inventory of her desk so we could prove we sent back anything that was personal.

      1. Door Guy*

        I’ve had to deal with a few job abandonment where they had company property since I worked at a place where your truck and company phone went home with you at night.

        The first one, the guy had called in a lot, and then one day just didn’t call in but didn’t answer the phone when we tried to contact him. The truck GPS showed it was still at his house (although if it’s disconnected, it just forever shows the last place it got signal). After waiting out the job abandonment duration, we went out and he answered the door and gave everything back, but he said “I wasn’t sure if you’d want this all back…” like the company was going to say “Oh, yeah, you get to keep your brand new truck (we got a new fleet that year), and all the ladders and equipment and meters and phone when you quit!”

        Next one, guy called up the day before he was supposed to go solo after training that he had gotten pulled over and discovered his license had been suspended due to an unpaid speeding ticket, and it couldn’t get reinstated until he could pay it but he was broke and had to wait until payday (2 weeks). 2 weeks later and we can’t get ahold of him, the only news we get is from his friend (who got hired at the same time). Find out that he got his license fixed like 2 days after he got pulled over and just didn’t tell us. We FINALLY get him on the phone, tell him we have to run his driving background again and that when it comes back clear he hits the field the next day. That was the last time anyone from the company actually spoke with him (aside from his buddy). We had to go out with spare keys and get his truck after they finally started the clock for job abandonment, which sucked as the guy lived 2 hours from the office (we covered a huge area, which is why they got to take their trucks home). No one is home, the truck is unlocked, but the battery is dead, and jumper cables weren’t working. Called our roadside assistance and they brought a new battery. We never got his company phone back (from what I understood they were involving the police but I never heard anything else) and apparently his buddy said that he was trying to become an MMA fighter now.

        The buddy from the last story is next. He broke down crying on me one day because he wasn’t making enough money to pay his bills, and they’d already had their heat turned off once and got it reconnected but it was going to be disconnected again, and how his girlfriend couldn’t find a job and more sob story. I wanted to feel bad but this guy called out more in the 3 months he worked with us than I had in my 5 years and downed a ton of work that others came and put in, and they worked off commission, job doesn’t go in, you don’t get paid. Then one day he drops off the map too. The only guy who can get ahold of him was the one who trained him, and even then not until after he’d been terminated for job abandonment. We came down to get the truck (again a 2 hour ride 1 way) and his truck is locked at least with all his company gear sitting in plain view through the windows. Unfortunately, our new warehouse manager had decided he didn’t like how our spare keys were set up and started redoing it, except that all he had done so far “collect all the keys” so we had a box FULL of keys with no labels. They all had fobs on them, so we were going through clicking them all. I found (and labelled) the spare key for my truck, but after going through the whole box twice still nothing. Start testing the physical keys and eventually find it, battery is dead. Thankfully this one started after a few minutes with jumper cables. I’m also fairly sure we never got the original key for the truck back (I put in my 2 week notice about a week after this).

    10. Anon for this*

      We had a crazy (almost) job abandonment thing last year. Our coworker had become a real missing stair. No one gave them any important projects because they weren’t only absent frequently for a week or two at a time, they weren’t really working when they were here. There was exactly one piece of their job that they would reliably complete and it was an annual task. And then last year, they just didn’t come back.

      They’d email and claim they would be back the next day but then not show without explanation. At one point the job was even posted and they were going to terminate for job abandonment. They were well over any amount of leave that FMLA would cover and wouldn’t provide any medical paperwork for the months they hadn’t been coming in.

      And then, we got word from the family that they’d forced coworker to go to the hospital and it turned out that they were hours away from death (called in the family for final goodbyes). However, they held on and they finally got diagnosed correctly and proper treatment. They’ve been back and strong for a while now. So we got a happy ending in that coworker is healthier than ever and actually a fully functioning member of the team again.

      1. Mr. Shark*

        Wow, that’s pretty amazing that the coworker just left everything, but then came back after they were healthy! That is a happy ending!

      2. wittyrepartee*

        Oh wow. That sounds absolutely terrible for everyone involved. I’m so glad their family got them to the hospital.

    11. twinmom2298*

      We had an employee who had worked for us about 3 months ask where the nearest Walmart was. At lunchtime she stood up and announced she was headed to Walmart. She never came back. two days later boss finally reached her at the number she’d given and she said “oh yeah I quit”
      We hired an intern once that just didn’t show up the first day. I thought maybe there’d been a miscommunication on start dates so tried to call him and left a voice mail. Finally 2 days later he says “oh yeah I got another internship to I’m not starting”
      We had another intern who asked if he could have Friday off because his sister was coming home on leave from the service and they were having a big family weekend thing. We gave him the day off and told him to enjoy his sister. He proceeded to not show up, not answer his phone and not return calls for 2 weeks. then suddenly after 2 weeks of no call/no show just showed up and expected he still had a job.

    12. ThursdaysGeek*

      I had a co-worker who sometimes was out unexpectedly, and I suspect he had some health issues. He had just started the process of training me to cover for him.

      He had some vacation time planned, and right after he was to return, I was taking off a couple of days, and then a week later he had some more time off planned. He went on his vacation. I needed his help, but figured I’d struggle to figure it out, and then he’d be back to give me direction. But he was gone the week between his two weeks off, so I kept working to figure things out. When his second week was over and he was supposed to return, he still hadn’t come back, although we did get an email from him saying how our company was a great place to work.

      I was scheduled to go to the main office a week later, and he still hadn’t returned. While I was there, I got an email from the company telling us he was no longer working for us.

      I’ve figured out how to cover for him.

    13. #sorrynotsorry*

      I’m not proud of this, but I ghosted on a part-time job at Barnes & Noble that I picked up several years back to bring in more money. I have never, ever, done something like that before but it was such a disaster. I came on in July and was never trained. Spent 1 day on training and then was just kind of forgotten about. Because I’ve done so much customer service and cash register work, I figured it out. But it was so weird. For the first 3 weeks, I basically worked alone at one of the entry registers and no-one realized I wasn’t trained, no one gave me breaks so I always had to find someone and get them to stay for me, etc.

      I had come on in August and by Thanksgiving, I ghosted. My hiring manager had known and 100% was on-board with my other jobs work schedule (Wed-Sat 7-4 + 2nd Mon each month). It worked out well because I was willing to work both weekend days. But November he started scheduling me only Wed-Sat during the day and I had to keep getting it fixed. Then he put me on for Black Friday and for Saturday and when I went to tell them this was again a problem (I was off Thanksgiving but back at my farm job on Fri/Sat), he said that I had never told them about my other schedule and that I’d have to switch shifts with someone. Riiiight. Obviously no would switch for Black Friday! I was so fed up by then I decided I would call in sick. But I forgot on Friday. Called on Saturday, no one answered so I left it on the shift line per instructions. Came in on Monday and when I went to apologize to my manager, he hadn’t even realized I wasn’t there! The next week when he goofed the schedule again and again told me I was SOL, I just never showed and never went back.

      1. lurker*

        tbh I think the one scenario where ghosting is appropriate is when the workplace is so disorganized they don’t even know you’re gone, so I’m on your side here.

    14. Leslie Knope*

      I worked for a company that did countertop installations. The installers would report to the warehouse early in the mornings, load up their trucks, then head out for the day to their jobsites. Each truck had a GPS tracker in it, but I’m not sure all the workers realized this…even though it was no secret. It was mostly meant to track mileage and time spent at each job (depending on the size of the installation, they might be able to complete multiple jobs a day, and it was helpful for me as the scheduler to know when they were on the move).

      One day we had client call and let us know no one had shown up at their house. We called the installer and got no answer, so I pulled up the GPS monitor to see where he was. The truck was parked at a shopping center that was near the client’s house, seemingly in front of a big box electronics store…but also close enough to a gas station to think maybe they had stopped there for some reason – ran out of gas? engine trouble? So we tried several more times calling the installer to check on him, but still no answer. We were getting very worried by this time.

      My boss drove to the shopping center to see what was going on, but when he got there the installer was missing from the vehicle. All the materials and tools were still loaded up from the morning untouched and the truck was locked and parked in front of the electronics store. My boss went into the store to see if anyone had seen anything going on that morning. The sales associate at the front said, “Oh! You’re going to love this!” and then he went to get the manager.

      Our installer had been caught SHOPLIFTING. We never heard what it was he tried to steal, but an employee had seen him and alerted their security. By the time the boss got there the police had already been by and arrested the guy. Unfortunately there was only one key to that vehicle and it was at the police station in the belongings of the installer. Honestly, I don’t even remember how we ended up getting the truck unlocked and back to our warehouse.

      My boss was so embarrassed. He called the client and apologized, but only told them that the installer had an emergency and had been detained. We rescheduled for the next day and used a remnant from their countertop material to make them a little cheese board as a gift. They left us a good review on Yelp!

        2. LavaLamp*

          Having been in the countertop industry and knowing how installers can be I’m not in the least surprised at all.

      3. Door Guy*

        I got a call on Thanksgiving from the mother of one of my employees saying he was very ill and wouldn’t be able to make it for a few days. Kinda weird, but okay. A few days later he calls and he had been arrested on some serious charges but was not being held in lock up while awaiting trial. Swore up and down it was a misunderstanding and he was allowed to go back to work. Only thing was he wasn’t allowed to leave the state, and he lived just on the other side of the state border from the office. Asked if he could just have work in his state. That was denied (not just for the court/arrest reasons, but also due to the logistics as he couldn’t come to the office for more gear, and our territory in his state was only the tiny county he lived in, the rest of that service region was in the main state).

    15. Mr. Shark*

      I pretty much love these job abandonment stories!!

      I’d never do it, but sometimes I feel like just walking away from work and not calling, not telling anyone, and just ghosting work.

    16. Turtlewings*

      This wasn’t “abandonment” but it was a bit of a mysterious disappearance for a bit… Two or three years ago, one of my co-workers just didn’t come back from Thanksgiving break (academic setting here). None of us thought much of it — it’s not unusual for people to take a few extra days for travel and whatnot. The nature of her work and office was kind of isolated and it took a few days for the boss (only one who knew she hadn’t taken time off) to realize she wasn’t back. She tried to contact Missing Co-Worker and was finally able to get hold of her husband. Turns out Missing Co-Worker had gotten deathly ill over Thanksgiving and had been in the ICU all that time. (She actually received last rites and everything.) Her husband had never once thought about notifying her workplace — he had other things to worry about! She did pull through, thank goodness, and is still working here!

    17. JanetM*

      I worked in the office of a janitorial firm, hiring said janitors. Turnover was insane, and mostly by no-show/no-call. Every new hire was told up front that three consecutive days of no-show/no-call meant they would be terminated.

      One day, we hired a new guy. He worked the first night, and did not return or call in. After a week, we sent him a letter that he had been terminated and included his final paycheck. About a week after that, we got a visit from (I think — it’s been 25 years since then) an EEOC investigator, claiming that our former employee had filed a discrimination complaint against us, in that we had fired him for no reason, but because he didn’t speak English it was discrimination! We were able to show the investigator the (written in Spanish) paper the new employee had signed, and the check-in/check-out records for the day he worked and the subsequent week.

      The investigator said, approximately, “Yeah, I thought so. Thank you; I’ll be closing out this complaint.”

    18. Tim*

      Someone at my last job called out every day for months running, and it was a whole legal mess to terminate her. I don’t understand why she refused to take a leave of absence, go on intermittent FMLA, or any of the other options she was offered, but she was…not all there. When she was finally let go she sent out a massive email to everyone detailing all of her problems with each of them, such as how someone’s eyebrows were too triangular.

      Same workplace, a woman went to the bathroom on her first day and just never came back. She left behind one shoe in the breakroom.

      2. Aiani*

        The shoe in the breakroom is really the best part. That’s going to be on my mind for a while. Maybe she was Cinderella and her car was about to turn back into a pumpkin.

      3. Windchime*

        Well yeah, I mean……..triangular eyebrows? How could she be expected to work under those conditions?!!

      4. Door Guy*

        We had a toxic coworker who took months to fire because it was being blocked by the regional manager. Not because they were friends, or anything like that, but because it would bring our total staffing levels too low. Never mind that he was causing a massive drain on morale and that even when he did show up to work he didn’t get anything done. We literally had to call and wake this guy up most mornings.

    19. Aiani*

      I used to have a boss who would start new hires off with a little speech from him, think an overview of the job and job expectations, and then he would send them to a more specialized trainer to begin their OJT. Well he gave his speech to this new hire and sent her to her next trainer but she never showed up for the next part of her training. The OJT trainer called to find out what was taking so long and they tried calling her but I think she never bothered to return any calls. We all teased him and asked what he had said to scare her off. He was a very personable guy so no one actually thought he said anything to scare her off.

      We had one person who left a note at his desk detailing why he was leaving. So when he was relieved from his shift the next shift found the note and turned it in, he was not seen again. It was full of how awful his shift supervisor was and how this supervisor was the worst person he had ever worked for. He wasn’t wrong, that supervisor was awful.

      This isn’t exactly job abandonment but I think it’s close enough with the WTFery to share. We had one woman who gave notice after working with us for only a few months and called out more than everyone else combined during those few months. The weirdest part is that she basically demanded that she should be given a going away party on her last day even though none of us knew her very well. Two very kind co-workers agreed to bring food for a little send off. Then at the last minute she said she would be leaving two days earlier than originally planned. Because of this the two co-workers didn’t have the food ready and she was really upset about it. I guess she thought they should have read her mind and brought food two days early? I really don’t know.

      1. !!*

        This is a different twist about work abandonment while still working full-time with all the benefits. A-hole coworker has had health issues from which he has been cured but still receives “treatment” and always schedules treatments on the days he covers the phones, which is only one day a week. Now he has scheduled the last 7 Mondays of the year as vacation days. And of course Mondays are the days he would train any new hires. While this may not sound all that bad, when he is working, he will go out of his way to be as unhelpful as possible so other employees avoid going to him for anything and so the rest of us have to pick up his slack. Of course nothing is being done about him so I’m at the BEC stage with him and his shenanigans.

      2. Mama Bear*

        I used to work in a small business incubator which had an office manager who was employed by the incubator. The OM gave notice and we all knew it, so the last day I planned to give them a farewell card. Turned out that a few days prior, when they came around with their dog, they’d decided that would actually be their last day and they weren’t going to show up for the last few days of their notice. Since the OM wasn’t our direct report I don’t know if there was any plans that were thwarted by this, but everyone thought it was very odd.

    20. Clever Name*

      I…..kind of wonder if this is how my ex-husband left his job. He told me at one point that he had had a nervous breakdown and would be taking a “leave of absence” from his job, and I quite honestly don’t know if he ever returned. I suspect he just stopped showing up.

    21. YarnOwl*

      The last company I worked for does a conference in Vegas every year, and one year it was a lot bigger than expected (a lot more attendees) and so a bunch of us that didn’t usually work events went to help out. I was supposed to room with a work friend, and then at the last minute the admin emailed me to ask if I’d room with someone else (a kind of difficult account manager for a huge client) because nobody else wanted to room with her. I figured we wouldn’t be in our rooms that much, and I always got along with her just fine, so I was like, whatever, go ahead.
      The first night we were there, we dropped all of our stuff in our rooms and then immediately had to go to work. After the day was over, some folks went out to get drinks but I was really tired, so I went back to the room and went to bed while my roomie was still out.
      The next morning I woke up and all of her stuff was gone except for her work laptop, which was in the middle of her bed, which had not been slept in. When I went down to the control room, immediately everyone pounced and was asking me if she was in our room and why wasn’t she answering her phone; she missed breakfast with her big client and they were not happy (apparently she had been not sticking to some stuff in the client’s contract and they were planning to confront her about it). I told them her stuff was gone and her laptop was left on her bed. I went back to the room and got it for her boss, and when her boss turned it on it had been completely wiped (we didn’t have an IT department and our computers were kind of a joke in terms of security and stuff like that, and we didn’t have an intranet, we just used Google Docs for everything). Her boss said they lost some pretty important stuff when she left (I don’t know if they were ever able to recover it or anything; I got a new job shortly after).
      We found out later she had gotten into an argument with her boss the night before (they had a pretty contentious relationship), and after I fell asleep she came and got all of her stuff and went to her friend’s house and went back home on a different flight. She never emailed a resignation or anything, just left and never showed back up at the office!
      We knew about her going to her friend’s house because she told a guy we worked with (who everyone thought she was having an affair with), but he wouldn’t tell us anything else. Now she works at a company in a totally different industry doing something else. It was wild!

  5. Fatima A*

    I am a developer with a small sized company that is owned by a larger parent company. Since I came to the US last year I have grown to love my new home, friends, and job. However, there have been some cultural norms that have been tough to get used to.

    Last year, our boss started encouraging everyone in the company to participate in Pride month. This included hanging rainbow flags in our cubicles, attending my city’s pride parade as a corporate partner, etc. That was fine when it was only encouragement, but after this past June he started making it clear that he expects everyone to participate in the celebration this coming year. To be clear, the CEO is part of the LGBT community.

    I believe people should be able to live how they want, but I am a Muslim and my religion teaches against this lifestyle. I do not want to deny others the ability to take part, as that is their right, but I personally cannot participate in these activities. How do I communicate this to my boss?

    Some background information: Seeing as I am a hijabi, it is obvious that I am a Muslim. I do not discuss my religion at work.

    This situation is complicated by my visa status. My employer is my sponsor, so unfortunately it is not easy for me to find another job. I also really do not want to go back to my home country as life is much better here.

    Does anyone have any advice?

    1. Andy*

      I think that re framing your objection might help? IDK about other people, but as a queer woman it feels super hurtful to have my very self described as a lifestyle …which implies choice. I am who I am. It would be vy slightly akin to objecting to haircolor for me. Silly and not actionable, but also feeding into a narrative that places my family in jeopardy.

    2. athiker10*

      So calling it a lifestyle is pretty offensive to a lot of people (including me as a queer person), so try to avoid using that phrase in any conversations you have. I would find polite excuses for not participating while leaving religion/beliefs out of it as much as possible.

    3. Anononoymous*

      Well, first thing is that it isn’t a ‘lifestyle’, it is a fundamental part of a persons existence. Your boss and company has made it clear that homophobia is not tolerated at your work place. You have to decide if this is the right cultural match for you, given that it is one of your companies values. If not, seek employment elsewhere.

      1. ThatGirl*

        First let me say I’m queer. I would love to work at a company that celebrates Pride. But I would not want to go to the parade – I’m just not that extroverted, and I think companies making “mandatory fun” is a bad idea. I think it’s fine if Fatima opts out of the parade, but it shouldn’t be about religious beliefs. Just say you have a conflict/can’t make it.

        And I’m trying to figure out a good way to say this, but as a hijabi and an immigrant, perhaps you could have a little more understanding about people facing discrimination?

      2. WellRed*

        It’s one thing to not tolerate homophobia. It’s quite another to make everyone attend a parade (which is probably not held during work hours.

        1. Yorick*

          It’s also a little much to make them display a rainbow flag. I’m totally in support of the LGBT community, but I probably wouldn’t want to be told to hang the flag in my cubicle. Not for any real reason, but I wouldn’t want to have a flag hanging there. I wouldn’t want an American flag or whatever else either. And I wouldn’t want to look at a million of the same flag all over the office, especially for a whole month.

          1. Gatomon*

            Yes – it’s one thing to ask that people be respectful in the workplace, or to even have a corporate display for Pride to acknowledge and show support for LGBTQIA employees and customers, but that’s a far cry from forcing employees to be individually, visibly supportive and attend Pride events that might conflict with their beliefs (religious, moral or otherwise). If they want to do a corporate envoy for Pride, they can ask for volunteers. (I personally have a big thing against corporations getting involved in Pride though, unless they have a service or product for the community like chest binders.)

            Also I’m not sure what a cis, heterosexual person is going to get out of Pride, other than the parade? I assume sessions like “Beers and Bears” aren’t going to appeal to them….

      3. Mobuy*

        Okay, but religion is also a fundamental part of a person’s existence. Fatima is not advocating for stoning gays, she’s saying that she does not want to hang a rainbow flag in her cubicle. How is this a problem? I think she should be able to not attend a pride parade and not cover her desk and email signature and whatever else in rainbows.

        Just keep pride month out of the workplace and in private life, where it belongs.

          1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

            This! Religion is a choice. I wish people didn’t kowtow to religion as much.

            1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

              Oh gods, not this again. Many things are technically a choice but how is insisting that someone else’s sincerely held beliefs are disposable and they should conform to your vision of what a secular society should be any better than a religious person trying to get you to act according to their faith?

              1. Just stoppin' by to chat*

                That’s a fair point. As a person of a minority faith (not a Muslim, nor a follower of Islam, but a different minority faith), I accept that if I were to immigrate to a country where mine was not the majority faith, than I have to accept living in a secular country. I abhor how much of a focus one single faith is in the US, but I also realize that I have my secular life at work, and my religion is part of my private life.

    4. PharmaCat*

      Can you frame this more as your off work time is fully committed? I am very supportive of lgbt issues, but would balk at mandatory attendance for an event during my off hours.

    5. Jamie*

      What is the difference between encouragement, which you say you’re okay with, and participation, which you are not? Are they making going to the parade mandatory?

      Also, I don’t understand what you mean when you said you believe people should live the way they want, but having objections to a celebration which is literally about people being free to live the way they want. To be able to be their authentic selves openly. I think that’s a really positive message personally.

      And to echo everyone else – it’s not a lifestyle.

      1. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

        I think she’s saying they used to be encouraged to participate, but now it’s going to be expected/mandatory.

      2. Tweidle*

        It seems to me that OP’s CEO is requiring his staff to attend Pride month activities, or at the very least use some of their social capital to opt out.
        It isn’t a life style, but it is bad management.

      3. Mrs_helm*

        RE: ” I don’t understand what you mean when you said you believe people should live the way they want, but having objections to a celebration which is literally about people being free to live the way they want.”

        It means I can have tolerance for other people’s beliefs/choices/laws which are different than mine, and treat those people with respect and dignity, and acknowledge their rights, and be kind to them individually. But I can’t *celebrate* the support of something which is different from my beliefs/laws. It would be disingenuous, at best…and in some religions could have consequences.

        1. Once more with feeling*

          This is perfectly stated.

          I will hard-core go to the mat for anyone for their right to live their lives as they see fit. But there is a HUGE difference between supporting someone’s rights and personally agreeing with their choices. As you said, you can be a decent human being who treats others with respect and dignity even when you don’t personally agree with them.

          This specific topic is a prime example for me. I will, and have, gone to the mat to ensure my LGBTQIA+ staff feel welcome in the workplace. I have spent hours and hours of labor and argument with my Board of Directors, insurance agents, accountants etc to change our health insurance and time off policies when a trans staff member couldn’t get the time off and medical help they needed through our policies for their transition. I started the trend at this office of voluntary pronoun identification in email signatures, I pushed back against a prominent funder who balked over this staff person identifying as trans in their profile on our website, and I am the one who wrote the grant and changed the policy so that now our entire Board of Directors and full-time staff will undergo training in cultural sensitivity, unconscious bias, and racism.

          And yet, I have many personal reservations when it comes to much of the LGBTQIA+ spectrum and I too would refuse to participate in a Pride event and have issues with this being required in the workplace.

          Contrary to what appears to be popular opinion nowadays, it is entirely possible to separate your personal beliefs and feelings from your professional and political stance. I would NEVER allow an employee to be disrespected or discriminated against based on their sexuality. I would NEVER vote for a political candidate who promoted laws and policies that enforce discrimination based on someone’s sexuality.

      4. OneWomansOpinion*

        I didn’t hear her say she’s objecting to the existence of Pride. She just doesn’t want to go herself. She’s not trying to stop the celebration from happening, she’s just going to stay home. I think Pride will be OK without her.

    6. Anonforthis*

      I think that without context, you don’t know what “mandatory participation” will mean — after all this, the next Pride month is over six months away, who knows what they have planned. I think that AAM has posted other things about getting out of extracurricular work events that would have some ideas, at least as far as the parade is concerned (and honestly, I’m an LGBT ally but any giant parade is my personal nightmare)

      1. Witchy Human*

        To add on to this: think about what you would be okay with. Would you be willing to proof or print out flyers if you’re asked to? Help load the van that’s going to the parade? My office is all-hands-on-deck when we have to stuff swag bags for an event, and someone just staying at their desk for a particular one would be noticed. If you have no problem assisting in the prep and just don’t want to attend, that’s going to look better than being unwilling to even touch anything to do with Pride.

      2. Yorick*

        Yes, my city’s Pride festival should be great fun, but it is way too crowded and everything. We have gone most of the last few years, but I can’t enjoy it much.

    7. Llama Wrangler*

      I agree with the suggestions above that you find polite excuses for not participating but leave religion out of it. I also want to raise that it sounds like you’re suggesting that your boss should know your political-religious beliefs because it is obvious that you are Muslim. But there are many Muslims who would not view participating in Pride celebrations as against their religion, not to mention plenty of LGBTQ Muslims. (This is not to say that your interpretation of your religious beliefs is wrong and theirs is correct, but to emphasize that it is would not be self-evident to your coworkers that just because you are Muslim that you would be opposed to participating in the activities.)

      1. Andy*

        this is a truly good point re obviousness of beliefs and I’m sorry to say that I do often assume that my Muslim friends, neighbors, and co-workers will be opting out of LGBTQIA events even if they’ve been meaningfully supportive in other ways of me personally and my community generally. I RESOLVE TO DO BETTER.

      4. iantrovert (they/them)*

        This. The best housemate I ever had was a woman who was Muslim. She was also vegan, transgender, and pansexual. Didn’t date her, just shared an apartment in college. She was awesome–she was also clean and she loved to cook. (Her cat was a jerk, though.) Her family was Pakistani and fully supported her as allies, too.
        Following Islam doesn’t imply everything Fatima suggests here.

    8. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

      Oof, I’m sorry. You should be protected legally, I think (I’m not a lawyer), but that doesn’t always make the conversation easier of course. My gut says it’s a safer bet to just quietly not put up a flag, happen to be busy on parade day, etc, and see if you can fly under the radar, but then if someone presses you, say that you can’t (not “don’t want to”) participate due to your religion. And the term “lifestyle” really gets people’s backs up so I would avoid that.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        +1 to this.

        It seems that you are not familiar enough with the issues and terms to have a good conversation about it with your boss, so the script you need may be, ‘I can’t [put up a flag / go to pride parade] because of my religion, but it’s so great to be working someplace that respects and supports all communities. ‘

        Intersectionality is hard. Because your office is openly supportive, and your boss is openly gay, you might choose to learn more about LGBTQx issues and terms – PFLAG and Human Rights Campaign both have some interesting resources for LGBTQx Muslims, you can find them by googling ‘LGBTQ issues for Muslims’. Seeing how people reconcile the two identities may help you avoid missteps at work.

    9. Box of Kittens*

      Hoping Alison weighs in on this one! Kind of surprised to see so many people in the replies here jumping on Fatima’s phrasing when she has a legitimate religious objection to participating in a Pride parade and a real interest in staying at her current company. I would assume your non-participation would be protected under EEOC, but I’m not an HR expert by far. I’m sorry I don’t have great advice for you but I wish you the best of luck. This kind of situation is always tricky.

      1. athiker10*

        I mean, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone jump on Fatima for it, just pointing out that the language they used won’t fly in an LGBT friendly workplace.

      2. Jamie*

        No one is saying she should be forced to participate, but giving her a heads up about phrasing which will be seen as offensive by a significant percentage of people should be helpful to her.

        1. Box of Kittens*

          Right, it is helpful. I didn’t know that about the term, tbh, and will refrain from using it going forward. I said that because when I wrote the comment it already felt a bit like a pile-on to me since so many people were making this same exact comment and not offering much advice, and that’s still going on apparently below.

      3. londonedit*

        The thing is, it’s hard to view someone’s religious objection as ‘legitimate’ when they’re literally objecting to the existence of some people. I am absolutely viewing this through my own totally non-religious lens, but I feel like ‘religious objections’ fall down when they mean you’re objecting to who someone is. People are objecting to Fatima’s wording because being LGBT isn’t a ‘lifestyle’, it’s who someone is, just as being a heterosexual woman is who I happen to be. If Fatima was saying she didn’t want to go to the company-sponsored hog roast party because her religion teaches that pork is forbidden, that’s fine. But saying in one breath ‘I believe people should be able to live how they want’ and in the next breath ‘I don’t want to take part in Pride activities because my religion teaches against this lifestyle’ is really problematic.

        For what it’s worth, I think Fatima can absolutely just say that she can’t go to the Pride events because she has other commitments outside of work, but I’d also hope that she might look into LGBT issues a little more, and perhaps try to be a little more understanding.

        1. ...*

          I’m kind of confused too but for a different reason. I would strongly object to going to a parade that promoted any religion (christianity, muslim, etc.). I would not promote these religions, post their flags, or encourage anything about them. Isn’t it kind of the reverse that she’s doing? She does not want to support for a religious reason. I also believe people should be able to live how they want and practice religion but I would NEVER support or promote it. I don’t see how that’s different that what she’s doing. I think religious people view it as “as they are naturally” too. That it isn’t a choice. If it were me I’d happily put the flag up bc whatever but I wouldn’t go to the parade bc its insanely hot, full of people absolutely wasted in the street and there is a lot of nudity which I don’t care to see. (Can only speak for chicago Pride, but it’s absolutely bonkers)

              1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

                If you mean they may be forcibly converted, that’s different. This person is in the USA most likely or at least in a country where PRIDE is celebrated.Nothing is forcing her to stay with any religion.

        2. Elena Vasquez*

          Is is possible that Fatima expects blowback from her own community if she publicly participates?

        3. The Meow*

          She’s not “objecting to the existence of some people”, though. She is objecting to compulsory attendance of a non work event. No matter what you feel about her views it is perfectly reasonable to not want to be involved in an event that has absolutely nothing to do with work.

          1. OneWomansOpinion*

            Which is a well-documented belief of everyone on this site! People here hate socializing with coworkers outside of work to an unusual degree.

        4. sfigato*

          I mean, most organized religions have issues with homosexuality. I know a few religious people that belong to less accepting sects, and they walk an awkward line in regards to homosexuality. People can do what they want to do, but their faith tells them that being gay is the wrong thing to do (as is being jewish, or muslim, or catholic…). That’s one of the fun challenges of a heterogeneous society – holding the tensions of allowing for a multitude of beliefs and faiths, even when some of them are in direct contradiction.

        5. Fikly*

          Here’s the thing. If we grant Fatima’s premise that being LGBT is a lifestyle, then how is being Muslim any different?

          1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

            Actually, since LGBT is inborn and religion is a choice, religion is absolutely a lifestyle.

            1. Avasarala*

              You’re chasing every possible comment to promote this idea that religion is a choice, and you need to stop. It’s not a choice (not in the “I think I’ll be Muslim today” sense) and it is a sincerely held belief by many people around the world. It’s disrespectful of beliefs and cultures to state this.

              If religion truly is a choice, then why don’t you choose to be Muslim and understand Fatima’s point?

      4. lemon*

        There is a long, long history relating to the word “lifestyle” and LGBTQIA people. It’s pretty offensive. I don’t think that people are “jumping” on Fatima, but pointing out that this is a hurtful word to use when talking about LGBTQIA folks, and folks should avoid using it.

      5. Mike C.*

        It’s not legitimate. You don’t get to use your religion to say that certain people aren’t deserving of respect and dignity like this.

        1. Jack*

          I don’t see where she said anything like that. She already said she tolerates LGBT (she said she think people should live how they want). She just doesn’t want to be forced to celebrate it as it would be against her religion.

          1. Mike C.*

            The whole point of PRIDE is to say that LGBTQ+ folks are deserving of respect and are welcome. Not just “tolerated”.

            1. Parenthetically*

              We’ve had about a million letters over the years from people who don’t want to participate in Mandatory Office Activity X and want to know a way to get out of it. “Everyone in the office has to hang a non-work-related _____ in their cubicle and go to the non-work-related _____ festival” is ridiculous regardless of what goes in that blank.

              1. Mike C.*

                Not when abstaining from hanging that sign in your cubicle sends an incredibly discriminatory message.

                1. Llellayena*

                  Would you say the same if the blanks were filled like this “Everyone in the office has to hang a non-work related pro-life poster in their cubicle and go to the non-work related March for Dimes”? (I could also flip it to “pro-choice” and “pro-choice rally”). Either view is seen as discriminatory (and often tied to religion) by the other side.

                  Everyone has the right to express their own beliefs, even if those beliefs are directly contrary to yours. What no one should have the right to do is jam their ideas in your face and try to force you to believe them as well. This is what is happening by making the LGBTQ Pride participation mandatory, the CEO is forcing people to express views that they may not personally believe in. Refusing to go along is NOT a discriminatory message, it is an appropriate expression of her own PERSONAL beliefs.

                2. Mr. Shark*

                  Not hanging a sign in your cubicle doesn’t send a discriminatory message.

                  I understand you’re reading into things because of what she’s said her beliefs are as a Muslim, but if you remove all of that personal information, and she just says “I don’t want to participate or hang signs in my cubicle” that should be the focus of this discussion.

                  No one should have to participate in something that is not directly business related if they choose not to.

                  You could go back to the charity issue that was talked about not too long ago. What if your boss wanted you to put a United Way poster in your cubicle and you didn’t want to? Same general issue if you leave out the politics/religion/discrimination.

      6. Mrs_helm*

        +1 for religious objection to participation being legally allowed
        +100 to AAM weighing in, because some people seem overly harsh in their response to OP

        1. Mike C.*

          It’s really difficult to take complaints about “people seem overly harsh” seriously when that’s nothing compared to the actual harm suffered at the hands of people who use their religion as an excuse to cause that harm.

          1. Yorick*

            But all Fatima A has done is not want to be forced to do these things. She is not responsible for any actual harm that we know of.

            1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

              SO it is ok when people do nothing to stop racism or sexism or to help someone being hurt if they aren’t the one directly hurting the person?

    10. Rachel*

      At some point, you’re going to need to have a talk, because just not doing it will force a confrontation. Sooner is probably better. I’d leave religion/disapproval out of it – just say you don’t want to participate. If he pushes, keep politely saying no. You can probably find a bunch of reasons to dislike Pride in and of itself – you can say that you heard Pride was originally a memorial for those who died of AIDS, and you’d rather not celebrate all those deaths, if you want. You can point to the (too many) incidents of violence at Pride celebrations. You can Google around for work-appropriate reasons to not participate.

      Your boss might make a bunch of assumptions about why, particularly since you are hijabi. If he’s a good supervisor, and you’re a good worker, it shouldn’t be too much of an issue.

      If he’s not reasonable, you might need to do some serious thinking on which you want more: the job, or to respect your religious teachings. It’s illegal to fire someone based on religion, but there are ways unscrupulous employers get around that, and “not participating in a mandatory diversity exercise” is one of them. Whether that would hold up in court is moot, because it still leaves you without a valid visa.

      Good luck.

        1. voyager1*

          Religion is the only card Fatima really has. Frankly I am not religious but being forced to participate in this would make me very uncomfortable.

        2. Mike C.*

          Nope, not like this.

          Unless you think it would be fine for Mirror Universe Mike C to join a white supremacist church and act accordingly.

          1. voyager1*

            That would be your right in USA, have you ever heard of Westborro Baptist in Kansas.

            Disgusting people, but they have their right to be disgusting… they just can’t discriminate.

            The manager can’f force the poster to participate. She has a religious objection. Forcing her to participate is discriminatory. Full stop.

              4. Observer*

                It doesn’t matter. Her employer CANNOT force her to participate in something that is counter to her sincerely held religious beliefs, regardless of what you (or the employer) thinks of those beliefs.

            2. Hiring Mgr*

              True that they can’t force her to participate, but this might (with good reason imo) seriously hurt her standing at this company, which will affect her visa (according to OP).

              Personally if a coworker told me anything like this I would think much less of them. OP, just go along with it if you want to stay in the US. Yes you can use your religion to discriminate, but don’t expect others to go along

              1. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

                For heaven’s sake, she’s not trying to discriminate against anyone. She wants to opt out of participating in an extraneous event that management is trying to foist on her in violation of her religious observance.

                2. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

                  Which is why she’s getting advice about how to protect herself from discrimination and retaliation.

                3. Hiring Mgr*

                  Yes, but I would argue the best way to do that is not to be honest in this case. Say you’re going to be out of town, or a medical thing, or something plausible like that. Saying you’re not participating becuase of religion, even if that’s legal, is going to come across as idiotic and intolerant.

                4. Yorick*

                  Pride is a whole month long. It probably won’t be logical to use an excuse like “other plans”

      2. Witchy Human*

        HARD disagree on coming up with “alternate” explanations to dislike Pride. Among other things, it wouldn’t be remotely believable.

        If someone who has only been in the country for a year brings up stuff like that it will be clear that they were researching with the express purpose of finding something about the celebration to object to. And that going to come across as disdainful and homophobic. Don’t ever, ever use AIDS as a smokescreen for anti-LGBTQ choices.

        I would try to be tolerant of someone’s religious objections. If they disingenuously tried to mask them, I would just find them hateful.

        1. Jamie*

          I agree. She has her reasons for not wanting to be involved she shouldn’t pretend she has more altruistic intent.

          If she can quietly opt out and be otherwise busy (you can be busy because you have plans to sit on your couch with a good book and a cat, to badly paraphrase Alison) that’s one thing, but an overt lie is something else.

        2. Hiring Mgr*

          But do you really think it’s going to come across better if she says she can’t attend because she’s a muslim and therefore disapproves? Hard to be tolerant of that.. Plus, I would start to question her intelligence to be honest.

          1. Witchy Human*

            Yes. “I’m from a very religious background and I’m not comfortable with going to Pride” is miles better than “I’m clearly from a religious background but I’m claiming that I don’t want to go because Pride has too much association with tragedy.”

            We are, in professional contexts, at least supposed to be tolerant of religious beliefs. Transparent lying, which may be a cover for religion but could just as easily be a cover for simple homophobic hatred…not so much.

            1. Hiring Mgr*

              I agree that the particular lie you mentioned is terrible, but I’d still advise claiming she’s going to be out of town or something like that. Plus, i’m not sure there’s a difference between religious homophobia and non-religious homophobia

        3. Tinker*

          Absolutely cosigning this. Particularly the bit about making up a story regarding AIDS — as an old Millennial from a conservative background, I remember the era where it was socially acceptable and relatively common to use HIV to justify treating queer folks with disgust; people older than me will have even worse memories of the matter. There’s a distinct danger of accidentally making a statement that would be… beyond unwise… to say to a LGBT person who is one’s boss.

    11. Elizabeth Proctor*

      Agree with other comments about not calling it a lifestyle.

      As far as the parade goes, I would say you are unable to commit to this event on your off hours. I think it’ll be harder for you to find a way to decline to hang some sort of rainbow thing in your cube if it’s given to you. If I shared your beliefs I would probably just take the thing and then never hang it up, and hope you don’t get asked about it. (Which is the opposite of Rachel’s advice).

    12. deesse877*

      I find it extremely unusual for a company to require participation in Pride. I also find it extremely unusual for a Muslim woman to write as though Islam were a cultural monolith.

      1. Iris Eyes*

        Islam is a cultural monolith in a lot of countries, and the OP is here on a visa so that may well be the framework she is approaching this from. Also, until like the last 10 years all Abrahamic religious traditions widely held the same view (and still do in most parts of the world.) While I wouldn’t say that any particular brand of religious belief has reached the status of monolith, Abrahmaic religious mores have been a powerful undercurrent.

        *Abrahamic being including but not limited to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam with their various branches and offshoots.

        1. Seacalliope*

          Respectfully, no. Abrahamic religions are not monolithic, neither among themselves, nor with each other and it is an outright falsehood to state that they are.

            1. OneWomansOpinion*

              You said they “ALL” widely held the “SAME” view so you can forgive people for thinking you did say that!

        2. Sam*

          This is a damn weird comment. In 2010, there were no LGBTQ+ affirming churches? Are you just… guessing at the state of the world?

          Regardless, I imagine pretty much anyone in a faith tradition with multiple branches really, really should be aware that there’s variation in beliefs – that’s how you get different sects to start with.

          1. Iris Eyes*

            95% of the time and 95% of the people isn’t enough to establish common belief on this matter?

            Just like heterosexual promiscuity. It is widely seen as “wrong” with varying degrees in how wrong and just what should be done to address it both the personal and societal level.

            A few exceptions doesn’t break the rule.

        3. SQL Coder Cat*

          The United Church of Christ has been ordaining openly gay folks since 1972. I was raised in this denomination and it was made clear that my Christian faith requires me to fight for the rights of LGBTQ+ folks as God does not make mistakes. Faith can lead people to very different places, and religious practices vary quite a bit as a result.

    13. Mimosa Jones*

      What if instead of a rainbow flag you were to find an ‘everyone is welcome here’ sign, maybe in rainbow colors, and display that instead? There’s lots of designs to choose from and it would be a broader message of inclusion and acceptance of people that would probably be interpreted as a Pride display. As far as the parade, it’s possible that time will fade your employer’s enthusiasm for full participation. And you’ve got over 6 months to find a good excuse for not being available. Or if that won’t work, you could find some sort of support task so you can view your role to be more like supporting your co-workers who are participating in a company event vs participating in the event yourself.

      1. Llellayena*

        There are some great “Hate has no home here” mini posters that you can download and print for free on the office printer. They do use an American flag decal so if that would be an issue since she’s here on a visa it might not work. But there are general acceptance statements that would read right during Pride that aren’t Pride specific.

    14. Iris Eyes*

      Sorry about all the people nitpicking language (as it is unhelpful to the conversation you are trying to have as they aren’t actually posing an alternative that would to them be more appropriate.)

      I can imagine that this is a pretty stressful spot to be in. Please know that following your religious beliefs has legal protection and choosing not to participate on religious reasons should not result in retaliation of any kind.

      A helpful framing for the conversation might be that you would like to continue the status quo. You aren’t proposing to change anything about your behavior, you are going to keep acting as you have always acted. If you frame it as “hey noticed this thing is changing, I’m just going to stay over here doing what I’m doing and wanted to let you know so you don’t RSVP for me. Thanks”

      1. lemon*

        Telling someone not to use a term that has a long history of being used in an oppressive way is not “nitpicking.” If I pointed out that someone was unintentionally using a racial slur, due to cultural difference, that wouldn’t be “nitpicking.”

        An alternative to use, according to the GLAAD media reference guide, instead of “lifestyle”: “LGBTQ people and their lives.”

        2. Iris Eyes*

          One person saying it was sufficient, a few other people may be warranted especially when speaking for themselves and their experience. at least 6 people pilling on prior to this comment?

          1. lemon*

            I don’t think commenters always have the time to read all of the comments made before them, so they may not have been aware they were piling on. In any case, I think it’s helpful to have multiple people point this out so that they are aware that a *lot* of LGBTQ people will have this reaction, and it’s not just one or two individuals being overly sensitive. This happens all the time in the comments– for the letter posted yesterday from the person who was tracking their co-workers sick time, most of the comments were different versions of “not cool, dude, mind your own business.”

            1. Door Guy*

              That and there is nothing on this site that tells you when other comments have been made. Depending on how long since their last refresh they could have started typing when there were NO comments about it. I caught a lucky refresh last week and found a story with only 2 comments, and by time I had mine typed out there were over 60.

              That said, I was today years old when I learned that ‘lifestyle’ was apparently a bad word, and I’m one of those who fall under the umbrella of LGBTQ (the B). Granted, I’m both a massive introvert and in a loving hetero marriage (since she was who I fell in love with) but I also just never did much with the community either in person or online groups. The others in my life who were LGBTQ, it either never came up, or the few I knew who were big on the pride events were not people I was close with (coworkers, friends of friends, neighbors, etc).

    15. PJ*

      Respectfully it is not a lifestyle. I can’t choose not be a lesbian. But you can choose to not be a bigot. Maybe think about why life is much better here than back home. Before anyone says anything, I emigrated from a country in the middle east. If you don’t believe in treating GLBTQ+ persons equally and with respect than maybe this isn’t the place for you. I would try having some empathy, as surely you understand what it is to face discrimination.

        1. Mike C.*

          This is an absolutely ridiculous statement to make. You might as well complain that we aren’t being tolerant of intolerance.

          1. Iris Eyes*

            Well if tolerance is the bellwether of morality then yes, I would complain about the hypocrisy of being intolerant of other’s beliefs when they don’t align with your beliefs.

            Ok, so some would say that their sexual identity is one of the most central aspects of their being, that living contrary to that identity would be harmful to them. They would say that if you aren’t ok with this part of me then you can’t be ok with any other part of me.

            For many religious adherents we subjugate our sexual self to our religious self. Our identity as a sexual being is less central to ourselves than our religious identity. Surely you can see that for those religions who allow for sexual expression only within the bounds of formal matrimony that it excludes a LOT of possible sexual expression, almost all sexual expression in fact. One sexual partner isn’t much more than zero when it comes down to it.

            When you tell someone who sees their religious self as most central (or more central) that they have to change to suit you. When you tell them they can’t live their identity in public spaces. When you tell them they aren’t welcome. You are marginalizing their identity at the same level. Your expressions of intolerance are hurting them just as much as any expressions of their intolerance hurts those who have an identity under the LGBT+.

            Mike C. your comments are saying “My sense of morality trumps your sense of morality.” Personally, I found the book “The Righteous Mind” by Johnathan Haidt to be really helpful in exploring why people who both see themselves as “good” can be at opposite sides of an issue. While I am still frustrated with those who don’t see “good” as I do, I’m a lot less hostile to them and I am more willing to hear them.

            1. lemon*

              But when it comes to LGBTQ rights, or the rights of any marginalized group, we’re not just talking about *beliefs*– we’re talking about people’s lives, their ability to walk around in the world safely without fear of being discriminated against, tortured, imprisoned, or murdered. By saying, “I don’t support beliefs that marginalize me or put me in harm’s way,” you’re not marginalizing that person on the basis of their beliefs, you’re protecting yourself and your right to live without fear.

            2. lemon*

              When you tell someone who sees their religious self as most central (or more central) that they have to change to suit you. When you tell them they can’t live their identity in public spaces. When you tell them they aren’t welcome. You are marginalizing their identity at the same level. Your expressions of intolerance are hurting them just as much as any expressions of their intolerance hurts those who have an identity under the LGBT+.

              Plenty of people with strongly-held religious beliefs are LGBTQ or support folks who are LGBTQ. They managed to find a way for their religious identity and their LGBTQ identity, or ally identity, to coexist. So, somehow, these people managed to change without losing who they are.

              And when someone who is LGBTQ or an ally states that they aren’t comfortable with a belief that supports their marginalization and threatens their being, they aren’t marginalizing that identity at the same level. 1. It’s not the religious identity they object to– they object to the part that harms LGBTQ people. 2. An individual person not liking you or supporting you isn’t what marginalization is. Marginalization is when a group is systematically blocked from the same rights and resources that dominant groups enjoy. Many religious groups in the US have been part of the dominant group for hundreds of years. Religion is a federally-protected category; being LGBTQ isn’t. You can’t legally be fired for your religion, but in some states, you can legally be fired for being LGBTQ. Outside of the US, there are countries where LGBTQ people can be legally imprisoned or sentenced to death. In the US, LGBTQ youth have some of the highest rates of homelessness and suicide, because they can be kicked out of their homes for coming out to their parents. Often, this happens because of the parent’s religious beliefs. Hurt feelings are not the same as not having access to the same legal rights and protections as others. Hurt feelings are not the same as being shunned from your family and your community.

              That’s also a pretty dangerous argument to make: that we should be tolerant of beliefs that are central to someone’s identity, no matter what, simply *because* they are central to that person’s identity. There are some people who see white supremacism as being central to their identity. Does that mean that I, as a person of color, should just tolerate them? No, because I don’t have to tolerate any group of people who think it’s okay to harm me out of some misplaced sense of morality that espouses that it’s more important that we all feel good than it is to protect people’s lives and legal rights.

        1. OneWomansOpinion*

          Yeah, someone hanging or not hanging a rainbow flag that they were *ordered to hang by their boss* does not in fact matter at all. Neither does someone marching in a parade that they were, again, ordered to march in by their boss. If someone wrote in that their boss was forcing them to participate in a street festival the commenters here would have a meltdown!

    16. theletter*

      I’m Catholic, and my religion also teaches heteronormativity. It’s a struggle, because like you, I don’t believe in discrimination, and since I sincerely wish my church would change, and welcome and truly celebrate everyone.

      That being said, everyone has their own level of comfort with parades in general. You should take a close look at the company mission and ask yourself if there’s a chance that the company has aligned itself with Pride Parade in such a way that they actually need all employees there, and if that’s the case then you can either dig into religious philosophy and find whatever you need to go and keep that job, or start looking for new work now.

      If you’re certain you’re not actually needed there, and you know parades just are not your thing, book something for that weekend. It can be a trip, a retreat, a workshop, anything that brings you joy. Prepare to act surprised when the date of Pride is announced. The company cannot force you to do to anything with your time off.

      This is clearly very important to your CEO, for good reasons. If it comes up at work, just listen to people with an open mind. This is their every-day-lived experience and it should not be discounted.

    17. CupcakeCounter*

      In defense of Fatima’s use of the word lifestyle, nearly all religions that preach against homosexuality refer to it as a lifestyle and I would guess that in her home country it is still referred to as that. I know in the church I attended growing up it was always called a lifestyle and my parents still refer to it as such (i.e. we don’t get together with Step-mother’s daughter because of her gay lifestyle).
      I obviously know better now, but keep in mind that Fatima probably used that term not to be dismissive but because that was all she was exposed to before coming to the US a short time ago.
      I am not a member of the LGBT community but I am a former member of a very conservative religion that actively disparaged LGBT everything so I understand that background and even when you disagree with the teachings of the church, sometimes you do not always have the correct words. A kind “hey – that term is inaccurate as it marginalizes our identity” was very helpful after I left the church.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        Clarification…
        I am not defending the use of that term or the church’s teachings, just pointing out it may be an education issue and not intended to be derogatory or marginalizing.

        1. LifesizeLawyer*

          You LITERALLY wrote “in defense” of her term. So, you actually are defending the use of that term. Other commenters have posted about how and why the term “lifestyle” harms the LGBTQ+ community. There is no acceptable defense of this. The OP should absolutely not refer to LGBT+ people as having a different “lifestyle” when she raises her absence from work-related pride events to her boss. It’s an offensive fucking term and doesn’t belong in the workplace.

        2. LifesizeLawyer*

          You LITERALLY wrote “in defense of Fatima’s use of the word lifestyle,” so, yeah you are defending the use of that term. Other commenters have already posted about how and why the term “lifestyle” is offensive and hurtful to the LGBTQ+ community. The OP should absolutely not use this term, which is very nearly a slur, when talking about her issue with her boss. Simple reason being it’s an offensive f***ing term!

          1. CupcakeCounter*

            My point was that Fatima might not have been aware up until today that the term lifestyle is offensive in this context not that her use of the term was appropriate – I was attempting to defend her potential ignorance due to her religious affiliation not the use of the term. I apologize if that is how it came across which is also why I posed my clarification.
            I was gently corrected, in private, by someone in the LGBT community when I was using some terms inappropriately and it was a very eye opening experience for me. It was a great conversation but up until that moment I honestly had no idea how hurtful some of the things I was saying were to this person (and I was not using bashing terms just wrong terms that had negative associations I was not aware of). Luckily they knew I was coming from a place of ignorance not malice as they were aware of my very strict, religious upbringing as well as that I had left that church.
            I absolutely agree with what you and the other posters wrote about not using that term and that she should be educated as to why it is offensive. There was simply a lot of vitriol directed her way for her use of that word and since what I understand of her background and religion reminded me of my background I simply wanted to point out that there is a chance she was unaware of how offensive it was.

      2. lemon*

        It’s history of usage by churches is part of why it’s an offensive term.

        I understand that the OP more than likely wasn’t aware of the problematic nature of this term and didn’t intend to use it in a hurtful way. But just because that wasn’t her intent doesn’t mean that folks shouldn’t be able to point out the word’s harmful impact. She didn’t know, now she does. What she chooses to do with that knowledge is up to her.

    18. Amtelope*

      So, okay, several things here.
      1) Please don’t use the word “lifestyle” to refer to being LGBT; it’s offensive.
      2) I think your best bet is to be clear and straightforward about your religious needs: “I can’t participate in the Pride celebration for religious reasons. I just wanted to let you know that I’ll need to skip decorating my cube and attending the parade.”
      3) I liked the suggestion one person made of posting a sign saying “Everyone is welcome here” or otherwise expressing that you are against discrimination, even against people who don’t share your religious beliefs. Everyone should be treated with dignity and courtesy at work. Hopefully that’s something we can agree about.

    19. LCS*

      Not to totally water down Pride – I believe it’s important (and a ton of fun!) – but given your beliefs, immigrant status, gender etc. can you walk the fine line of celebrating diversity & inclusion without making it totally LGBTQ-centric? A quick google search shows a ton of posters, material etc. with messages like “Everyone is Welcome Here” – some brightly coloured which has a Pride association but also featuring people of different nationalities, physical abilities etc. I’m thinking you could hang one of these in your office and people will see what they want to see from it without you feeling like you had to cross a personal line.

      And skip the parade – no matter your feelings on the topic, I’m not a huge fan of enforced “fun” and team building outside of work hours – but if for example some of your colleagues needed to be out one afternoon to help prepare a float or set up road barriers or whatever, you could cover their calls or something which would show you’re being a team player about things without needing to provide direct support.

    20. A tester, not a developer*

      Where do you draw the line? Are you OK with putting up a rainbow flag in your cubicle, but not attending the parade or other public events? If that’s the case then I think you can go with the ‘not available on the day of the parade’ approach others have mentioned. If you do not feel you can take part in ANYTHING that “condones” Pride, then unfortunately your company is a poor fit for you, and you may need to look at transferring to an area within the large parent company.

      2. The Meow*

        I disagree about this making Fatima a poor fit, unless she works for an organisation exists specifically to support the LGBTQ+ community.

        As a comparison, I strongly support environmentalism. As a manager I have provided reusable cups for everyone in my team; replaced plastic cutlery in the office with metal ones; arranged discounts for environmentally friendly products (if employees wish to buy them); and hung up a poster by the photocopier reminding people to print only when needed.

        But if I insisted that my entire team attend a protest against climate change or display Greenpeace flags by their desks, that would be inappropriate. That would put *me* in the wrong for demanding my employees to champion the same causes I believe which has absolutely nothing to do with our work. Fatima’s CEO can do whatever he wants to promote LGBTQ+ interests in his own life. He has no right to mandate everyone else to do the same.

    21. SQL Coder Cat*

      Fatima-

      This puts you in a difficult position with your visa status. I would recommend sitting down with your boss and having a conversation in which you express that you are committed to treating everyone fairly, but that for religious reasons you are unable to participate in pride celebrations. Emphasizing the commitment to fair treatment is important- you are legally protected in the US for your religious beliefs, but that does not extend to discriminatory ACTION within the workplace. Most companies with a commitment to diversity will be ok as long as your actions never cross the line into discriminatory action. The fact that you are on a company-sponsored visa makes things more difficult- I don’t know any of the ins and outs here, but I would definitely encourage you to research other options via visa types/jobs as a safety net. You may be more comfortable in a company that doesn’t make such a big deal about Pride, and that’s ok.

      I also encourage you to spend a little time researching the discrimination LGBTQ+ folks have faced and still face- in jobs, healthcare, and elsewhere. Understanding what they’re up against will not only help you understand but will help you stay on the right side of the line of not acting in a discriminatory manner. As you’ve seen, just using the term ‘gay lifestyle’ can create problems for you.

      Best of luck to you.

    22. Mid*

      I’m not sure how helpful this is, but—
      Some religions/sects of religions forbid/discourage flags (I’m thinking of Jehovahs Witnesses in particular but I know it isn’t exclusive to them).
      You could approach your employer with that framing. “My religion doesn’t allow me to hang flags and participate in certain activities because it’s seen as idol worship” or something similar to this.

      Don’t bring up your support (or lack therefore of) of LGBT+ community. Just say you can’t participate in the flag thing and related activities because of your religious beliefs.

      There are ways to frame this that don’t make people feel like you’re not anti-LGBT (but it’s a very thin line, and a lack of active, outward support can come across as being anti-LGBT+)

      Also, though it would be hard to fight, firing you because of your religious beliefs is illegal.

      1. Mid*

        Also, I have many friends who wear hijab and actively participate in Pride and are members of the LGBT+ community. So it might not be a safe assumption that people will read “hijabi“ as “not okay with participating in Pride.”

        I do love the suggestion by another commenter to hang a “all are welcome” or something similarly inclusive, but that could lead to more conversations about your lack of Pride Flags and participation in activities. I think remaining neutral might be the best approach here—meaning don’t show outward support for any causes.

        A further note, I’m in the LGBT+ community and would 100% not be okay with my workplace forcing me to participate in any activity for Pride. I don’t think that your employer should have a say in your personal time, even if it’s something I personally agree with.

        1. sfigato*

          I’m curious how you feel about the bigger corporate footprint at pride events. As I said in my comment below, I am so happy to see how far gay rights has come in my lifetime, but I am skeptical that having a ton of straight google or facebook employees at pride is adding a ton of value to gay rights. Maybe it is? Maybe any support is good support? but it just seems kinda forced and coopting. Am I being too cynical?

          1. RecoveringSWO*

            I was wondering if someone was going to bring this up. At the risk of sounding like the angry lesbian screaming “get off my lawn”…the more that pride has been filled with corporations treating it as a diversity training/mandatory fun event, the less fun it’s been for me! Obviously, I don’t represent the entire community and I don’t have all the answers on corporate involvement at Pride parades. But, I definitely don’t want people to feel obligated to attend Pride solely to prove that they’re tolerant.

            1. Elena Vasquez*

              My company has had 3 such events in one year. It is beginning to look suspicious, like they need to prove to the world how woke they are, because, like, it’s trendy.

          2. Olive Hornby*

            You’re not. Lots of people in the queer community have opted out of the main Pride celebrations in part because they feel too corporate–designed for companies to market to and in some cases exploit (as in the case of large alcohol brands) the queer community vs. creating a space that celebrates its most marginalized members. The massive police presence is a big part of this objection as well, and part of the reason New York had an alternative march this year. As a queer person, I hate huge Pride marches and would be super skeptical of any private company that required participation.

            Anyway, in the OP’s shoes, I would either decline to attend the march without giving a reason, or claim a schedule conflict. If there is any pressure put on you to attend or otherwise participate, I would tell them essentially what you wrote here–you are happy to work with LGBT colleagues, but participating in Pride goes against your religious beliefs and you will need to sit out the celebration.

          3. Mid*

            I’m not a fan. It’s a cheap shot to look woke while increasing profits and doing very little for actual LGBTQ+ communities. I prefer real, meaningful action over flag waving and virtue signaling (not an attack on anyone here. My personal views are my own.)

            1. OneWomansOpinion*

              Yup. It’s really telling to see people melting down at the thought of…what? People not participating in a completely meaningless (like, by definition, it has no meaning if you’re doing it regardless of your actual LGBT friendliness) show of “allyship.”

    23. sfigato*

      I’m just here to say that I totally support LGBTQ rights, am ecstatic that there is so much more support and visibility for that community, and I am deeply skeptical of corporations using it as a way to seem woke. SF Pride was like one big orgy of corporate self-congratulation and it was gross to me ( a straight person). Using a discriminated group’s identity as a way to promote your business seems tacky, and I’d be irritated if I was expected to, on my own time, signal boost the company by participating in an event like pride. and I’m not sure how much value add there is to have a bunch of straight employees draping themselves in rainbow flags and taking up space at queer events, but maybe that is just the introvert in me rationalizing.

      1. Oatmeal*

        Big Corporate Company is paying for my transition and has explicit LGBTQ-friendly policies so they can bring all the straight employees to Pride that they want. (Tongue in cheek because I do get your point, and corporate pinkwashing is a thing, and I love that pride is a place where I’m suddenly not in the minority anymore and I don’t want that overrun by straight people treating it as just a place to party.)

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          lol’d, thanks. My employer, also Big Corporate Company, includes transition support in their health care, recommends specific supporting actions anyone can do (like pronouns in your Slack name) and sends groups to pride that are mostly LGBTQx. Straights are welcome but are not the focus. I love it.

        2. Elena Vasquez*

          My friend’s company will pay for transitions but not for child daycare, a benefit requested by a large number of employees. The first is a benefit that very very few employees will actually use and the second is one that many will use.

          But the optics look good.

          1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

            Transition is medial. CHildren are an actual lifestyle choice parents make.

          2. Sam*

            This is a pretty gross comment to make! One thing is allowing someone to live without intense dysphoria, the other one is… paying for daycare.

    24. 867-5309*

      Fatima, I echo the other suggestions to consider a more general sign, such as “everyone welcome here.” Another option, if you have a relatively sparse workspace (e.g., not a bunch of personal items, photos, etc.), then perhaps You can just say you find too much decor distracting.

      Also, I think the responses to Fatima’s question have been mostly kind and considerate, considering I know it’s personal to many people and generally, the comments on AAM run pretty liberal. (I also winced at the “lifestyle” comment.) As a Muslim in America, I suspect Fatima has experienced her own marginalization and intolerance – or worse – so I’ve appreciated that everyone is being helpful and also thoughtful in their responses.

    25. Tinker*

      I’d suggest considering, possibly along with your boss, the distinction between acting on behalf of your company (e.g. running a booth or similar for a festival attended by a marginalized population that many companies are trying to reach as customers or employees) and attending Pride in a way that implies a more personally-held position in the matter.

      I think if your boss is pushing for something like the latter, it’s out of line and would be regardless of the particulars of your position — but that may well arise from not having thought through the thing, if he is a person whose social circle runs to the outspokenly queer and he is not used to unfamiliarity or discomfort regarding Pride. In the case of representing the company on company time, I am not sure if your objection extends to that; if it does, the only advice I care to have is to rethink that.

      You do have the problem here of representing your views in a way that minimizes the offense to a person who is of the group that you have the views about. The “lifestyle” thing is solidly covered so I won’t reiterate that; another point I would emphasize is not phrasing the description of your religious issue in a way that positions anti-queer positions as being inevitable if one is religious. There are people of faith who are queer, and there are people who feel compelled by their faith to, for instance, “resist evil, injustice, and oppression in whatever forms they present themselves” and consider that an obligation to oppose anti-queer bigotry. At least in theory, the convention in the US to give substantial deference to religious views also extends to such people.

      I would probably frame the thing largely as wanting separation between work and your personal life, should that be a reasonable representation of your views.

    26. Princesa Zelda*

      First, I’d like to echo that referring to being queer as a “lifestyle” or a “choice” is offensive; I can no more stop being queer than I can stop being 5’5. I can wear heels to pass as a heterosexual cisgender 5’7, but it’s not who I am — I’m still queer and 5’5. It’s a common way to refer to us, but it’s also deeply hurtful, and I recommend steering way clear of it.

      Second, I also hate going to Pride on behalf of my workplace. My objection comes from a place of semi-socialism and dislike and distrust of corporations, but how I usually justify it is “I have a conflict that day! Have fun for me!” My conflict is… going to Pride, but I don’t tell my boss that. It’s just “a conflict” that can’t be moved, have fun. If your boss is the type to press, you can schedule a doctors appointment or refer to a “family commitment” or something similar. (You are your own family. Your commitment can be quality time with yourself, on your couch.)

      I do encourage you to learn a bit about LGBTQ+ Muslims. I wouldn’t automatically assume a hijabi to be uncomfortable with Pride, since I personally know more Muslims cool with me than Christians cool with me. Even if you ultimately decide you can’t reconcile it for yourself, it might be useful to you to know how other people square that circle.

      Best wishes to you and I hope that you can do what you feel you can do.

    28. Scott*

      I’ve only skimmed the comments so far, so I apologize if these ideas have already been expressed. I could be wrong, but my feeling is that Pride month itself, as well as participation in Pride month activities, has nothing to do with any person’s religious or non-religious beliefs about the morality of the choices made by those in the LGBT community, or whose beliefs are correct with respect to those beliefs. Pride month, as well as participation in Pride moth activities, has everything to do with recognizing that we are all human beings who deserve to be treated with the respect that all human life deserves, with a specific focus on those in the LGBT community who have historically been marginalized, ostracized, attacked, injured, abandoned, etc. by those who have felt that being a member of the LGBT community somehow made them less human.

      In other words, as a religious person myself, I can understand why you would feel hesitant to participate in Pride month activities in the way your employer seems to want you to do so. However, you may find those reservations to be misplaced. Support of, and participation in , Pride month does not mean you “agree” with an idea or person, nor does it condone a behavior or choice you may believe is wrong. To me it simply means that you recognize the value of a human life.

      I don’t think your employer can base your employment status on whether or not you participate. I would say that if there is an event or activity you feel you are expected to attend with which you feel uncomfortable, be clear about that with your boss or your employer. This is especially true if there are ramifications or repercussions within your religion that would specifically prohibit you from participating. I wasn’t sure from your letter if you were referring to something like this, or if it was just more out of your own perception of the activities.

    29. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

      Since you’ve only been here for a year, can you phrase it in terms of being opposed to discrimination, but that it could be problematic if your family in your home country heard about you participating in a pro-LGBTQ event?

      From my viewpoint, part of what’s valuable about Pride is that it’s not just “discrimination is bad,” it is (or should be) a celebration of LGBTQ+ people and our lives, and a movement for our rights and for inclusion in society as a whole. I was at NYC Pride the year after the state started recognizing same-sex marriages, and that was absolutely noted and celebrated as part of the march. Yes, Pride these days is full of corporate floats, but that doesn’t mean it’s apolitical, or should be.

      (I definitely disagree with your views, in case the above doesn’t make it obvious, but I think you have the right to hold them.)

      2. OneWomansOpinion*

        I’m not sure if you’re assuming the family thing is true, or suggesting she make it up, but either way…that’s a pretty personal thing to discuss at work. Nobody have to tell some sob story about their backwards homeland to get out of an event they shouldn’t be required to attend in the first place.

        1. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

          I was guessing at motivation, but thinking less “backwards homeland” than starting from her having said that her discomfort with Pride is connected to her upbringing–the part about having had to get used to things since emigrating. All I know about her homeland is that she said life is better here (which could mean more reliable food, or more independence in ways that aren’t really part of this discussion).

    30. blackcat*

      I think you have an easy out. You are a Muslim woman immigrant. I’d say something like “I’m not in a position to be politically active right now.” or “Given the current climate, I’m just not comfortable attending events like that.”

      I have plenty of Muslim friends who are part of the LGBTQ+ community, so your boss is (correctly) not assuming that your religion means you feel a certain away about other people. But pushing you to attend political events (which pride rallies are) is not great. I would say the same about a Make America Great Again rally. But if I were you, I’d be legitimately concerned about participating in anything even vaguely political. I’ve had friends for whom it’s come up in their visa renewal interviews. One got grilled about participating in the Women’s March. It’s creepy AF and super alarming.

      Per the flag in your cubical–can you preempt a big flag by putting up a small one in a corner where you don’t have to look at it?

      As a longer term thing, I encourage you to think about things like pride as being less about “encouraging a lifestyle” and more about supporting people’s right to exist in the world. Being LGBTQ+ isn’t a lifestyle choice, and working well with and accepting LGBTQ+ individuals is a part of living in most US cities.

      1. lobsterp0t*

        Yes these are very practical points. I think it would be very smart of your employer to demonstrate they understand this.

        I think what frustrates me about corporate pride initiatives is they are focused on branding and not humans… like, there are some interesting and complex conversations here but also a lot of them are irrelevant to work?

      2. Very Anon*

        I think the first quote is a good one to use! My only suggestion would be to add on something like “I appreciate how inclusive and diverse the culture at this company is” during the conversation as a way of signalling that she’s on board with treating everyone with respect. Visa processes are complicated and different for everyone, I know plenty of people who chose to stay more under the radar until they felt more secure.

        If you are generally low-key about most issues and celebrations (both political and non-political), it will be less obvious that you aren’t participating. That way your coworkers are more likely to think “Fatima doesn’t do politics” rather than “Fatima doesn’t have a flag therefore has a problem with me”

        Fatima, is there other work that you can do at your company to support people planning/going to the event or free up some of their time? Like you take X work-related task so a coworker can make Pride decorations. Or if there is a Pride party at work, volunteer for the clean-up crew (which no-one want to do anyway). This way you are not directly supporting a cause you aren’t comfortable championing, but you are supporting your coworkers and company culture.

        When Pride month comes around, Watch, Listen, Learn. Get to know your LGBT+ coworkers. Having actual people that you know and understand in that community generally helps a lot of people resolve the “religion vs acceptance” issue

    31. Lady Heather*

      I think it is your manager’s right to insist on flags in cubicles – just as it would be his right to put them on walls, or paint the cubicle partitions in rainbow flag colours, or in a clashing pattern of purple, orange and neon green. I don’t think working in a cubicle decorated per your manager’s instructions is the same as participating in a Pride event – most would call that “working in a cubicle decorated as instructed by manager”.

      I’m marginally more understanding about not wanting to attend a Pride event.

      The difference to me seems to be that the cubicle decorating is “passive” – you’re doing your regular job amidst rainbow flags. I would interpret a refusal to do that as intolerant or even hostile, because you’re interfering with other people’s (your manager, CEO, company) show of support. They decided to decorate your cubicle, after all. And they get to do that because they pay you.
      Participating in a Pride parade is “active” – you’re doing activities unrelated to your job specifically to support people that you’d rather didn’t exist – and I think a refusal to do that is a bit less hostile because you’re “only” refusing to support them yourself.

    32. lobsterp0t*

      My advice would be to seek out the queer Muslims in your own community and try to listen to them. The two aren’t mutually exclusive and perhaps sharing a religious belief and background could be a way into understanding why Pride is important.

      If you reframe Pride away from a celebration or party and into a flamboyant and artistic protest for civil rights, perhaps that will also help.

      Just decline to go. But I also think this is an opportunity to try to understand other humans (who exist within your religious community, not just Outside of it).

    33. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

      Just popping in to recommend a newish book – “Unorthodox: LGBT+ Identity and Faith”, editor Sean Richardson.

    34. CatMom*

      Others have addressed the problematic nature of your question, so I won’t. I will, however, say that if you’re the only one not participating in Pride, people may put 2 and 2 together, given that you are a visibly religious person. And they’re likely to feel sour about it if they do, especially if they’re LGBTQ+, because, well, you have a negative bias against the queer community, and it is because of your religion.

      And to be clear, many people in this country are going to receive this particular belief negatively, just as they would if you were a religious Jew or Christian who didn’t believe in the LGBTQ “lifestyle” (which yes, is a pretty offensive thing to say to many LGBTQ people). And the people who won’t view it negatively aren’t often the kind of people you want to be around, because “not believing in the LGBTQ lifestyle” is generally regarded in large American cities as bigotry. You are more than welcome in this country and I hope that you get to stay as long as you like, but perhaps consider that open acceptance of the LGBTQ community is part of our culture here in a way it may not be in your home country/community, and that’s something you’ll need to account for as you adjust.

  6. Just Peachy*

    I’ve worked at my current company for 4 ½ years. I’ve always gotten excellent feedback, and am well-liked by my peers. My first two years, I was in customer service, and my manager was Pam. At that time, formal reviews were not done. I was then promoted to a sales support position, and Michael was my manager. End of the year performance reviews were instituted during my time in sales support. During the two performance reviews I had with Michael, he gave me glowing reviews – all 4’s and 5’s, with mostly 5’s. About a year and a half into my job in sales support, I realized I was truly not interested in sales, and requested to be transferred into a contract specialist position that had been newly created at the company, and was given that position. I also am the “backup” customer service person, and answer customer calls when our main customer service rep, Jim is tied up with something else. In the transition, I’m back to working under Pam.

    My first performance review with Pam will be next month, and I’m concerned about one specific thing. To preface, Pam has always acknowledged that I do good work, but can sometimes be irrational and petty (this is a well-known thing about Pam). Anyway, over the years, Pam has always made snarky comments in passing about “everyone rushing out the door right at 4:30”, which is when our office closes. Our office hours are 7:30-4:30. However, Pam is deeply bothered by people leaving on time. Not early, but on time. The thing is, Pam consistently shows up 30+ minutes late in the morning, so it makes sense that she would stay later than the rest of us. To be clear, I personally don’t care that she gets to the office late. However, it does bother me that she acts irritated that I (and others) leave right on time. If I was working on something time sensitive that needed to be finished ASAP, I would of COURSE stay late if need be. However, 99.9% of our work isn’t time sensitive, and I make a point of finishing everything up by 4:30; I’m not just running out the door when the clock strikes 4:30 if I’m busy with something.

    Here’s the dilemma – the main customer service rep, Jim, stays later than 4:30 most day. However, this in no way is something he has to do, nor does his “extra” time in the office indicate that he’s getting more done than me. He simply chooses to do non-time sensitive tasks right before closing time. I still think though that Pam will point out in my performance review that Jim stays late sometimes, and I don’t, and try to tie it back to me not working quite as hard as Jim (which isn’t true, at all – I’ve always been a high performer.) Bottom line – Pam is a “butt in chair” type of manager, and incorrectly ties “working late” to “working hard”.

    Of course this is all me assuming Pam will bring this up in reviews – but if she does, how do I react?

    I should also add that I’m a non exempt employee, so I would be collecting overtime pay by working late to appease Pam.

    1. Just Peachy*

      I should also add that my raise is based on these reviews (If you get above a certain score, you get a 5% raise, if you’re “midrange” you get a 3% range, and if you’re not so great, you get a 1% raise). I have received larger raises in past years when my responsibilities have increased greatly just just by asking, but don’t plan on asking for that this year since my job hasn’t changed much over the past 12 months.

      1. Just Peachy*

        Also important: (sorry for all the additions), but when I moved from customer service to sales support, Pam was visibly upset about it. A couple coworkers told me that Pam had told them, “I wish Just Peachy would have asked for my advice before jumping positions. I just thought she would have valued my opinion a little more”. The thing is, the previous manager before Jim (Charles, who is no longer with the company), was the one who had asked me if I wanted to move to sales support – I didn’t actively seek it out. He also told me not to personally tell Pam I was moving teams, and said that he wanted to me the one to tell her. Anyway, I think Pam felt some sort of betryal when I moved teams (again, she can be a bit moody and take things too personally). Now that I’m back on her team, I feel like she has a sort of “haha, I knew she’d come back” complex.

        Again, she does acknowledge my good work normally, but I feel like me switching positions, then moving back to her team shifted our relationship a bit.

    2. 1234*

      If she bring it up as a negative, I would say “Company policy states that our hours are 7:30 – 4:30. What is the reason that I’m being penalized for leaving on time at 4:30? I am following company policy.” and bring a copy of the company policy to the meeting.

      2. Yorick*

        More generally, I think this is a more confrontational tone than you should take on the first response, especially when you know your manager to be somewhat petty.

        1. 1234*

          Most places I’ve worked, it says somewhere (employee manual etc.) “our office hours are from X to Y” and these are all office jobs.

      3. That'll happen*

        I’d also look at your company’s overtime policy. I know at my company, overtime needs to be approved by management ahead of time so you can’t just stay late if you feel like it.

      4. Happy Lurker*

        I would consider going the OT route if she brings up leaving on time. Using Allison’s calm matter of fact tone. “I should leave at 4:30 to avoid charging the company OT. Please tell me if I should be doing something different, and of course, I will do so.” Hopefully, it isn’t stay 20 minutes late and don’t charge the company.
        Ugh. Pam. Come in late and wonder why people leave on time. I bet once a boss called at 4:45 and praised her commitment to the office. She hasn’t gotten over it yet. Whoops, sorry that was my boss 20 years ago.
        I wish you the best Peachy. Please let us know how you make out.

        1. Observer*

          I was thinking much the same.

          If she brings up working off the clock a shocked “But that would put the company a risk!” is the way to go.

    3. Bloopmaster*

      It seems to me that your non-exempt status makes this easy! If she questions you about the fact that you leave at 4:30 every day, just act very surprised and say something like “Oh–Since I arrive at 7:30, I regularly leave at 4:30 because otherwise Company has to pay me overtime. Considering that I can get all my work done during regular business hours, using overtime seems unnecessary, but is my schedule a concern for you?”

      Probably the idea of paying you more will shut her down, but if not, offer the following options:
      a) Offer to start later so that your end time is also later. Also point out that this means you won’t be in the office at 7:30, in case early morning coverage is an issue.
      b) Request documentation that you are authorized to perform X hours of overtime per week so that you can stay later regularly.

      If she brings up the fact that Jim regularly works past 4:30 (so why don’t you?), maybe say “I’m not familiar with the details of other employees contracts, so I assumed either that Jim was exempt/salaried or that he had arranged with you to work late or otherwise vary his schedule from our regular business hours. If he’s actually non-exempt and working unpaid overtime that could get us into huge trouble!”

      1. TimeTravlR*

        I like Bloopmaster’s comment: “.. I can get all my work done during regular business hours..” I used to work for a Pam who thought face time was work time. When we got a new boss I made it clear up front that I thought (barring something unusual or an emergency) if we weren’t getting the work done in the regular time allotted, the we weren’t doing it right. Fortunately, he agreed, and thereafter, we only stayed late in extreme circumstances.
        So yes, rely heavily on not wanting to cost the company OT and being able to accomplish your work in the time allowed.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        +1 to all of these scripts.

        Of *course* you don’t want to cost the company extra money if there’s no business requirement!

      3. LKW*

        Yes – use terms like “Stewardship” and “company resources” and “not remaining compliant with time tracking”
        to basically say “I’m not ghosting hours and working without getting paid and I’m not wasting company money on overtime”

    4. Penthesilea*

      If she brings it up, I would bring up that you would be clocking overtime regularly and clarify whether that’s what she intends. Does she really want to be paying overtime every week? My company really frowns on overtime for office employees minus an extenuating business need – if someone was working overtime on a weekly basis, that would be a problem. I think that would be a reasonable first step in a conversation with her.

    5. Mama Bear*

      Does your review process have a way for you to add a rebuttal to something you disagree with? Is there a formal grievance process when you think the review is way off?

    6. Mrs. C*

      Right at the outset of my career, I had a boss who started to rant to me that she was seeing a trend in employees [insert list of every female employee, current and past, who reported to her who wasn’t a mother – including me] not showing dedication to the job, because they weren’t working long enough hours.

      I was completely taken aback, and thankfully my surprise reaction wasn’t to curse at her for discriminating based on the status of my uterus. Instead, my surprise reaction was to genuinely ask “Is there any work that I’m not doing or that I need to be doing better?” She replied, “Well, no. But just be here longer!” I didn’t work longer hours, and she never bugged me about it again. Maybe something similar would help here?

    7. RebeccaSmiles*

      I don’t have any advice, but I’m glad to see a fellow fan of the greatest show on earth. I’m at the Dunder Mifflin Memphis branch. :)

  7. R.Z.*

    This morning one of the barristers at the firm I’m employed at was arrested. The police came to our building and constables arrested her as she was coming out of the lift. No one knows what is going on. A memo was sent out saying she will not be returning for the foreseeable future and listed who to send clients to if anyone asked for her. No one knows why she was arrested, it all happened so fast. I have never witnessed anyone being arrested before. She seemed like such a warm and genuine person and she is well-liked by everyone here. It was most definitely a shock and of course it’s all anyone is talking about now.

    1. Mop Head*

      Wow, that’s really shocking. You have my sympathy, I would be absolutely stunned if I witnessed such a thing.

    2. PolarVortex*

      Oh man, office drama like this is always crazy. (I now too want to know what happened.)

      But something to keep in mind: nice people can still do bad things, and professional faces aren’t always the same as personal faces. So it could be she’s a nice person who got in a bind and did something stupid like stealing money from the company because she’s struggling with a gambling addiction, or it could be she presents as a nice person and in reality is not.

      I would google her name for awhile, you’ll find out some of the answers there. But remember: Arrested is not convicted so, you don’t know until you know.

      1. Kesnit*

        “nice people can still do bad things,”

        As a criminal defense attorney, I see this every day. Most of my clients are good people who had the bad luck to get stopped by the police while they had cocaine in their pocket (or something along those lines).

        “So it could be she’s a nice person who got in a bind and did something stupid like stealing money from the company because she’s struggling with a gambling addiction”

        A few years ago, an attorney in another state was arrested on prostitution charges. She worked for a major law firm, which led to people asking why she did it. Turns out she needed the extra money to pay her student loans.

        1. Delta Delta*

          I am also a criminal defense attorney and want to echo that sometimes good people do dumb things. I am also very intrigued by the story, so hopefully the OP here will update as more facts get known.

    3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Crikey. That would be very unsettling.

      Criminal proceedings are usually public record in the UK – you could keep an eye out in the local paper for an initial hearing in the Magistrates Court along the lines of “Etheldreda Smith, 38, of Leafy Suburb pleaded not guilty to two charges of Excessive Perfume Wearing and was released on bail”.

    4. LKW*

      It is entirely possible that she is warm, genuine and a criminal all at once. People are complex! Still I’m really curious to know what she did.

      1. Elenia*

        we once had a coworker fired for stealing. She was stealing because she had a three year old autistic daughter and was not making enough to take care of her and her treatments, but she was stealing from not-for-profit events to benefit preemie babies….the company agreed not to press charges but she would have to leave her job immediately.
        She was the director of operations. :eek:

      2. Liane*

        A very polite, sweet young man, Kylo, who worked in electronics at my (In)famous Retailer store was charged with stealing over $3,000 in merchandise. I suspect at least some of it was via fraudulent returns, even though I never noticed anything questionable when he returned items & I was very good at both following procedures and spotting scammers. However, if that was Kylo’s MO, it’s quite possible he stayed honest when I was at the service desk and saved his crimes for when someone less diligent or perceptive was working.

      3. A Poster Has No Name*

        She can also be warm, genuine and not a criminal, since being arrested doesn’t automatically equate to guilty.

      1. Bagpuss*

        That’s not the case in the UK. For quite a lot of lower level stuff, unless there is concern that someone is a flight risk or would destroy or conceal evidence, they would be invited to go the police station for an interview at an agreed time, rather than being arrested. It’s also fairly unusual to arrest someone at work – we don’t tend to go in for the ‘perp walk’ much.
        But it could happen if she failed to appear in court or keep to bail conditions, without it necessarily being in connection with a serious offence. In which case she may also be in trouble with the Bar Council , as I am pretty sure that barristers are required to tell their regulator if they are charged with any serious offence

  8. Job hopper?*

    TL;DR: If I find a new job in early 2020, will it look bad if I relocate in early 2021 when my resume longevity is already a little spotty?

    I have a situation that is a little similar to the letter from a few weeks ago about the partner who has to move frequently, but it’s different enough that the advice provided doesn’t apply but makes me wonder.

    My husband has gone back to school to enter a new field. He graduates next December. The area where we live does have a good market for candidates in that field, but there are other parts of the country that are far better suited to his interests. Therefore we may be moving in the start of 2021.

    I have been in my current role for a little over a year and I’m not enjoying it. It’s a small company and I am spending a lot of time on admin work. I am a dept-of-one and feel very lonely at work. My pay is enough for us to live, but nothing else.

    I hope to find a higher paying role that is more specialized to my education and skills in a larger company. I will begin job searching after the new year.

    If I do move in early 2021, will it be bad for my resume to have that short-term role? I think the chance of moving outside of the area is fairly low. In contrast to the letter from a few weeks ago, my husband would consider staying locally if I asked him too. (This is dependent on him receiving multiple job offers of course.)

    My recent job history is mixed. My longest stint anywhere is 3.5 years. My previous role was only 1 year because of questionable management practices and that company is actually closed now. With my current role, my tenure will be around 2 years depending on how fast the job search goes.

    A remote role would be a dream come true, but I am not going to bank on it. I need to continue to make enough money to support us until he graduates and a lot of those roles would be a pay cut.

    Also, finding a role that would allow me to transfer to the new location might work, but my area has several headquarters for major companies that likely will not have the same roles in other cities.

    1. ThatGirl*

      I think moving for your spouse is a good enough reason to have a short-term stint on your resume, but I also think you should be open to staying if you love the job and your husband can find something locally — *he* could always get a couple years under his belt before you both change jobs.

    2. Me*

      I think your last two points are strong things to consider.

      As far as leaving your current job – I understand it’s not great…but is it so awful you can’t hang out until your husband graduates and you decide whether you are moving? I ask because you do risk coming across as a tad job hoppy. Short stint because of a relocation isn’t an issue but when you have multiple other shorter stints behind it it could be an issue.

      1. Job hopper?*

        It’s not awful like my last role where I feared the worst on a daily basis. But it is not serving me well for career goals. This means that I will be searching, but would only leave for something that will check all the boxes.

        1. Me*

          In that case, I would stay until a decision is made on moving. Being viewed as a job hopper really doesn’t serve you for career goals either. It stinks and isn’t ideal, but optics matter. All that said, it doesn’t make you unemployable, just more difficult to find something as well as perhaps making it difficult to find something that you want vs something to be employed and pay the bills.

          Alternately you maybe should discuss with your husband the idea if you get a new job staying for x amount of years meaning he would find a job locally at first. I’d also build in there that if you haven’t found a new job in x months (whatever makes sense) that you will just stick it out until you relocate or decide to not relocate.

          1. Job hopper?*

            Your second option is likely what will happen.

            The other issue is money. My conservative company is worried about what’s coming and will likely keep raises low which means I will have to find a way to manage my rising COL elsewhere. It’s harder adjusting to a single income than we thought!

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think it will be good for your résumé, because when potential employers are looking at short stints and worried that you may have a short stint with them as well, they ultimately don’t care if it’s for a “good” reason (spouse has to move constantly) or a “bad” reason (you’re just super restless and never satisfied where you are work-wise). They’re concerned about the short tenure, because hiring is a pain and training is involved, and they don’t like having to re-train someone. That said, I know plenty of people who have one-year stints who manage to keep getting jobs. It’s not like a scarlet letter that means the whole town shuns you. It just means your job search may be a little more difficult than it would otherwise.

      1. 1234*

        It really depends on the industry. Not sure what OP’s industry is but I know in advertising, it is common to hop around.

    4. Kiwiii*

      It sounds like your stints are long enough that it shouldn’t be a serious problem with perception, (3.5 yrs, then 1 yr, then 2 yrs, then 1 yr is not Awful awful) especially when the reason for the next change is going to be moving, which isn’t a red flag. As long as you stay at whatever job you get in 2021 (if/when you move) for a good 3 years, I don’t think the quick transitions will seriously affect you. That said, it might help to think a little bit about coworker’s histories if you know them at all, or how long people have stayed in the job you’re currently in — if it’s really unusual to be in roles for less than 2 years, that may be something to factor in, because various industries have wildly different expectations at longevity.

      1. Kiwiii*

        fwiw, my job history looks like 3.5 yrs, 11 months various temp gigs, 13 months, 7 months (contract position), 9 months, current job, and the only acknowledgement during the interview process of it being very job-hoppy was my interviewer saying something about my current company being a good place to grow roots.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        I dunno, (3.5, 1, 3) wouldn’t raise any flags, but (3.5, 1, 2, 1) looks pretty spotty, and if I were a potential employer in 2021, I’d be digging in to why JH changed jobs in 2020. If JH had a good story for that change (eg, the company closed), ok, but ‘I was a little underemployed and underpaid’ isn’t a good story.

        I don’t think it’s ‘super reg flag!’ territory, but it’s a hurdle. Look hard at the rest of your resume and at likely jobs in your target markets and see if your resume is strong enough to overcome all the barriers you’ll be facing. For example, if you’re going to need a job before you move, ]or if you’ll be competing against a local school that specializes in your area and is flooding the target market, then you really need the strongest possible resume and no red flags. But if you’re a nurse, it doesn’t matter, everyone needs nurses.

        1. Kiwiii*

          I suppose it would depend on if 2 years is a regular length to be in the role or if it seems quick to leave it. Industries vary a lot and if these aren’t management positions, it might be a very expected amount of time to move roles. With the moving excuse for the newest, as someone who regularly assists in pulling resumes, I’m not put off by it and don’t expect reasonable employers in similar industries to be either.

    5. Mazzy*

      When I screen resumes sometimes, this would bother me. You’d need a very strong tailored cover letter and need to be a perfect fit for me to consider someone job hopping all of the time. Also, keep in mind that many companies area already 3 quarters into negative growth and the economy is barely growing, and so we might be in a recession by then, so that may hinder prospects for either of you in 2021.

      1. Job hopper?*

        Something I hadn’t been considering! But that actually means I will try harder to find a new role. My current industry is one that will be hit hard by a recession.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Just make sure you’re avoiding industries where it’s last hired first fired. The extra two years of seniority can be a big buffer, as hot as the job market has been the last two years.

          I agree that there is a recession coming up, but it won’t be deep. Jobs will help cushion it. But after, we’re probably in for 4 – 6 years of slower growth, 1% or so (trade wars = manufacturing capacity offloading this year and next; either more of the same or big direction change (BDC), but BDC will take at least 3 years to make significant economic impact.

    6. drpuma*

      I don’t see anything about what’s normal for your industry, but that’s also something to consider.
      It may be worth it for you to look for a one-year contract or fill-in role for a medical/maternity leave – that way, a fixed end point is normalized and built-in.
      I also recommend you (and your husband) decide when your job search -ends-. You talk about starting in early 2020, but job hunting can be unpredictable – if you don’t have a new role by say March, do you stop applying until early 2021? What about June? September? When is he planning to start his job search? Setting your expectations may help you decide on next steps.

    7. Fibchopkin*

      Just wanted to chime in with Mazzy and say that the sort of job-hoppiness your resume implies would also give me pause, and really, your cover letter would need to address it satisfactorily for me to even consider putting you in the “maybe interview” pile and the resume itself would very likely exclude you entirely from my own “definitely interview pile.” Then, if you got the interview, you’d really, REALLY need to nail it. This will vary by industry, of course, but if I saw your resume come across my desk for one of my open positions and the history was 3.5, 1, 2, 1 – unless your cover letter said you are a military spouse or something similar, my concern would be that if I put you into one of my open positions, you’d jump ship for the next shiny opportunity before you even finished really training for and mastering the position. Hiring and training is the world’s biggest hassle, so I’m not keen to have anyone on my team who isn’t likely to be there for at least 3-5 years.

      Sorry :( I know that’s not what you were hoping to hear, but I wanted to make sure you got some honest advice from the perspective of an upper to mid-level manager in the project management field. Maybe this isn’t your field and it won’t apply, but if you are looking to do project or (non computer) program management, my advice would be to tough it out where you’re at for the last year if you can, or else come to an understanding with your husband and really firmly commit to staying at the new place for 3-5 years regardless of hubby’s prospects after graduation.

      1. Oh Snap*

        I hire people and I agree. I would advise you to stay in your current role. I would not consider you unless you were head and shoulders better than others with job hopping like that.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This strongly depends on your field, there are some that have no issue with job hoppers. There are others who don’t want to touch them with a ten foot pole. And then there are roles that it matters and others that it doesn’t matter.

      What you do is important. Are you doing things that take extensive training efforts on your employer side?

      If it’s something you come in and are able to hit the ground running in 4-6 weeks, if you leave in a year or two, meh. If you need 6 months or more to acclimate, that’s a huge investment with a limited return they’re getting!

      With my roles, I need to establish that I’ll be there for at least a few years because I don’t fully have the scope and company needs down for almost 12 months at times, since it’s an an accounting schedule. If I duck out after one term, they have to bring in someone else in and go through that whole phase over again, it’s a hassle and not great. My boss said he was excited to see my resume showed I stuck around for awhile in most places, one place I left at a year because they were the actual devil after all. So he didn’t flinch at it but if I had a string of them, I wouldn’t have gotten a call probably!

    9. JR*

      Would you consider job searching in the area that has the best prospects for your husband after graduation? That of course limits his options, but limits them to a better job market than your current area. Realistically, given the length of a job search, you aren’t likely to end up needing to leave for the new city more than 6-9 months before him.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      Moving is a good reason. However, it might be better to seek out contract jobs or temporary situations until you move. A lot of so-called contract-to-hire jobs never do become full time, so if you wanted something more exciting or an opportunity to work in a new field, that might be the way to go. Or, you could hang in at current job knowing it’s for a limited time.

      Yes, to remote-only roles. That would solve a lot of issues for you, but they seem quite difficult to find! I’ve been actively looking for one of those myself, and find them rather limited and/or much reduced salary from my current role. Probably depends on your field though.

  9. Sarah*

    An organization reached out to me to talk about collaborating with my organization because they are hiring a new role. The new role is something I’m very much interested in applying for. I told them that and offered to let them speak to someone else. They encouraged me to apply and were still interested in speaking with me representing my current position. My question is do I apply this weekend, or do I wait till after we speak next week, and then submit my application referencing our conversation?

      1. Amy Sly*

        Possibly not this “weekend” but 8:00ish on Monday so it doesn’t get lost in the weekend email dump. But yes, don’t wait until the conversation.

  10. 2FlushOrNot2Flush…*

    It’s weird poll time! For obvious reasons, I don’t feel comfortable asking this question around the office. Since AAM readers seem quite reasonable, I’d like to get your consensus:

    When the office toilet flushes such that the, ahem, important contents are gone, but some toilet paper remains, is it necessary to flush a 2nd time so that there’s only water left?

    The eco-friendly side of me absolutely hates flushing when there’s just residual toilet paper and nothing stinky. But I’m currently flushing twice out of fear of being That Person who is making the bathroom gross. So, 2nd flush, yay or nay?

    1. LizB*

      I say yes, unless it’s just like a tiny wisp of residual paper floating peacefully back out into the bowl.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I usually flush until the paper is gone, but I am also not super grossed out if there’s just a little paper floating around. As long as it’s clear someone before me flushed at least once.

    4. 1234*

      I personally flush until everything is gone. As the next person using the bathroom, I would want to see the toilet as “clean” as possible even if “important contents” are gone.

      And every time I see someone only leaving TP in there, I will still flush it before I use it (and then flush again after I’ve used it until everything is gone).

    5. littlelizard*

      Yay for 2nd flush! If your toilet is notoriously bad and there’s a tiny amount of very shredded paper left, you can maybe avoid it, but generally no one wants to see TP floating around when they walk in. Plus, when I see things in the toilet, I flush before using to see if it’s maybe clogged, so that flush will likely happen anyway.

      1. Eleanor Konik*

        This. I always avoid using a toilet with paper in it because I’m afraid it’s clogged, and that if I flush it again, it’ll overflow.

    7. Jamie*

      I too try to be environmentally conscious, but I can’t get past something being left behind and I would find it gross.

      That said I wouldn’t go on a witchhunt to find you! Just roll my eyes. Assuming there is no hygiene issue I’m not seeing I think you should forgo the flush and people like me need to get over their weirdness about it.

    8. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      If it’s only paper, I say leave it. It is not gonna kill anyone to do their business in a toilet that’s already got a little paper in the bowl, and just paper by itself won’t stink the place up.

      1. Chili*

        I agree when there’s just a small floating, but when there’s a clump of toilet paper stuck to the bowl, it tends to attract more paper until there is a gargantuan wad that someone has to push down. So if there’s just a floating piece, leave it, but if it’s stuck somewhere, I would try to move it so it doesn’t become an even bigger issue for someone else.

    9. fposte*

      Yes, flush. As a species we are the anti-dogs–we don’t want to do our business where somebody else did. A lot of people will flush your bit of toilet paper before using the toilet because of this, so it’s not saving water in many cases.

      1. CastIrony*

        Yeah, I would do this, too. Saving water is good and all, but when it comes to toilets, reasonable sanitation/cleanliness comes first for me.

    10. Liz*

      I’ll be honest, I flush until everything is gone; residual anything or even just a bit of TP. And if i go into a stall, and there’s anything left, i flush before I go. Its just a weird quirk i have.

      1. MoopySwarpet*

        If I go into a stall that has residual anything in it, I flush and then go use the next stall. (Not in super public restrooms . . . I just move on to the next stall in those cases.)

    11. Ama*

      I do if there’s enough left that people might think it is clogged and not use it — but then I’m also the person who goes and flushes if someone else leaves a mess. I like to say my superpower is being unphased by bathroom messes (side effect of being raised by parents who played a lot of softball in the height of a midwestern U.S. summer — if you can survive unairconditioned, poorly ventilated softball field bathrooms, no bathroom will phase you).

    12. Daisy-dog*

      …I don’t actually look. However, given the fact that surely other individuals in my office use it for the same thing and I never notice anything left behind from them or hear double flushes, I’m probably safe with one flush.

    13. Llama Wrangler*

      If there is nothing else in the bowl and one to two sheets of toilet paper, I don’t flush a second time. If there’s anything more than that, I do.

    14. DataGirl*

      Second flush. Usually in the ladies room* if a toilet has paper left in it no one will use it- you’ll see people start to go in the stall then stop and pick a different one. Leaving the paper in can essentially make that stall unusable until some brave soul goes in to take care of it.

      *no idea if men are like this.

      1. nekosan*

        I think of that as the “poison toilet”! If I see one, I flush it… but I usually do also go to another to do my business.

    16. PolarVortex*

      Flush it.

      I’m not against saving water, but if I see toilet paper I’m going to assume the water is equally unflushed and don’t want someone elses stuff accidentally splashing back on me.

    17. Celeste*

      I’m a reflusher. If I get in there and there’s paper, I’ll reflush for myself. I like a fresh bowl.

    18. Mazzy*

      Yes flush it. But I’m in an area without any sort of water shortage and lots of rain, so. Maybe it’s different in the Southwest?

    19. Seifer*

      In the office, yes.

      At my apartment, where they installed really terrible toilets that sometimes take three flushes to get all the toilet paper (but the… important contents are gone)… it’s my apartment and I’m the only one that uses that bathroom so I’m meh about it. I tell myself that that evens it out.

    20. TooTiredToThink*

      The eco-friendly side of me also hates flushing multiple times just because of toilet paper but there are some incredibly gross people in my office so I do it because I don’t want to be a) clumped in with them [pun intended] and b) a lot of people would be grossed out by it.

    21. matcha123*

      If it’s a small bit of tp, I’d leave it. Like…a pretty small bit. But any more and I’d flush again.
      I try to get a stall that I’m familiar with so I know what the flushing is like and can prepare.

    22. lemon*

      Second flush. If I see paper in the bowl before I use it, I flush anyway. I don’t know why. I know it’s irrational and bad for the environment, but it’s mentally icky.

    23. Nini*

      Yes. I’m surprised anyone is saying otherwise. This is an issue with the toilets in my new office and I hate walking in to find toilet paper in the bowl because the toilet looks dirty it means I have to flush the toilet before I can even use it.

    24. drpuma*

      Courtesy flush at the beginning of your business helps to decrease smells and also guarantees the second flush will still be….productive.

    25. Enough*

      If you have a handle you could try holding it down a little longer. This can help the paper go down farther and not come back up. This should use less water than a 2nd full flush.

    26. SomebodyElse*

      I’ve complained about our office toilet… I swear it’s as close to being a shelf toilet as could be found in the US. So it’s very common that TP gets stuck to the bowl… not wispies but the full wad. Gross! If it happens to me I use the toilet plunger to knock it in the water and reflush. If I go in there and see a wad, I do the same thing, then use the toilet.

      Really three reasons. 1-Gross and 2- I don’t want to run the chance of having multiple wads of TP getting flushed and stopping up the works and 3- I want to make sure the toilet will flush before I ahem add to it.

      1. 2FlushOrNot2Flush…*

        That stinks! Yeah, I feel like any clumps/wads of TP stuck to the bowl is absolutely no question, you flush to prevent plumbing issues. For me, it’s really a question of those wispies (great word choice there) in clear water where it’s obvious that the previous user flushed and it was otherwise effective. The consensus seems to be mixed enough that I’ll keep on with the secondary office flush!

    27. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I leave it, because we have so many people that do the dreaded courtesy flush anyway–it would be overkill.
      (Tangent: I’d rather someone hear my body noises than have my nether regions closely exposed to flushing, the idea of public toilet water-droplets inside my clothes makes me cringe.)

      1. Joielle*

        Same! I would NEVER courtesy flush while sitting, that’s repulsive. I also don’t do a second flush if it’s just little bits of paper left.

    28. Donkey Hotey*

      Well, if we’re going to (pardon the pun) go there….

      I vote for a single flush unless the content of the TP is more than just white.

      And in consolation, most commercial toilets are under 2 gallons / 8 liters per flush, which is the liquid equivalent of budget dust.

    30. Garland Not Andrews*

      Our toilets regurgitate bits of paper after the flush. Sometimes after you’ve left the stall. What can you do? I don’t worry about it. (I worry about breaking the stupid wall mounted toilets as I am a person of substance!)

    31. Not So NewReader*

      I vote for telling maintenance the toilet is not flushing properly.

      I can’t tell if this is happening often or if this is just happening in “extreme use” settings.
      However, if it is not fully flushing with ordinary use, then the toilet needs to be repaired.

      If you are on metered water, you can motivate TPTB to check this out by saying that people are often flushing twice and using more water than necessary.

  11. jenny jenny*

    I guess I just need to vent.

    I’m on maternity leave with a 2-week-old baby. I live in a country where parental leave is a year, and employers are generally obligated to return you to your job or a comparable job on return. I am an in-house lawyer that was making a good salary. I had a great rapport with my boss, with absolutely stellar reviews for the past several years. This week, I found out that the department has been COMPLETELY gutted. My boss, who worked at the company for more than 20 years and is a wonderful human, was unceremoniously walked out. (Nobody told me, but I learned because apparently they forgot that I still have e-mail and VPN access for a month to deal with things like adding my baby to my benefits, etc. and I saw a slate of alarming announcements coming out.)

    My colleagues have been scattered to different areas and apparently my role is different and now reporting to a non-lawyer, the company’s Chief Operating Officer. I deal with this person a lot and while he is cordial, he is also someone I feel has been promoted well beyond his competence. He is essentially the human embodiment of unearned bro confidence. He is also notoriously not a fan of parental leave; I had a male colleague who took a 10-week leave (as is VERY allowed per company policy) and the COO was critical of him.

    I did do a lot of managerial work in my role (including talent management, budget management and different operational function), as my own team was five people, but my five people have been either terminated or reassigned and now I have no idea what my job will be. My replacement (also a lawyer, on a contract for a year) is furious, as he thought he would be getting the chance to manage a team and actually do legal work. I have a suspicion that I’ll go back and be asked to be doing things like process improvement projects (which I am good at and have executed well on but I HATE). I have an even stronger suspicion that I’ll be let go once a couple months have passed and it’ll be considered more palatable to terminate me vs. doing so while I am on parental leave. Nobody has formally reached out to me to have a conversation about what is happening; this seems shortsighted to me as obviously colleagues would tell me even without the e-mail access still being in place.

    Given how early I am in my leave, I feel pretty stuck. It’s not like I can job hunt now, when I plan on having a year with my baby. I am definitely a person who likes to have next steps in place. The uncertainty is frustrating and scary; I am our family’s primary income earner and we won’t be able to sustain finances much beyond what I saved up for leave. I do believe it’ll be fine in the end – the last time I job searched I got a few offers – but my job was such a great fit. A real unicorn job, with good compensation and a boss who was super understanding about family obligations, etc. I’m also angry that this happened now, with no warning, when I’m deep in the throes of baby-related sleep deprivation. I’m determined to enjoy my baby time, but now I have a big irritating stressor hanging over my head.

    Not sure I need advice, just commiseration or experiences from others.

    1. Amy Sly*

      Congratulations on the baby! (Seriously, as a childless not by choice woman, I find people just seem to assume that having a child is normal, not miraculous.)

      I’ve seen my friends use their pregnancy leave for job searching, and it seemed to work out well for them. Mourn the unicorn job, because it’s definitely gone, and then about halfway into the leave, start looking for something new. If you still have to go back to work at dead-unicorn for a few months, fine, but you’re almost certainly right that they want to see the back of you. Might as well leave on your own terms.

      1. Krabby*

        If you’re in Canada (which the one year of leave makes me think is the case), there are rules about contacting people on LOAs that may have prevented them or given them pause before reaching out to let you know about something like this. So I would at least look past that part of it.

        That said, I 100% agree with Amy Sly. Wait a few months, then start setting up notifications with certain job sites. Apply to the ones your excited about and ignore everything else. Use this time to be picky and find yourself another unicorn.

    2. Four lights*

      Ugh. That stinks. As someone with a five month old, you are absolutely right that this is a terrible time for you to hear this news. If you have a year’s leave, and hopefully some months before you think they will fire you, that should be enough time to look for a job. Right now it is all baby, all the time, but it will get better and you will see that there will be some more time in the day that you could devote to job-hunting if you need to. Congratulations and good luck.

    3. Anon for this*

      Also a lawyer. After my daughter was born, I was told I would be happier at home with the baby and let go from my job. It was devastating at the time, but I found a position that was closer to home, paid more, and is family-friendly. It sounds like your unicorn job is gone, so I’d enjoy the time now and job hunt closer to the end of your leave. The sleep deprivation eventually gets better.

    4. Daisy-dog*

      I say – don’t think about right now. Given how quickly this situation developed – who knows what will happen in a year? It definitely sucks and will be a great time to start looking for a new job…in a couple months.

      Enjoy this time with your baby. “Unicorn” jobs are no where near as rare as the time that you’ll have this newborn!

    5. i_am_eating_cheetos*

      I’m sorry this is happening to you while on maternity leave! I have a one-year-old now; wrapping my head around any of this in those first few weeks would have been impossible, I think.

      I don’t really have advice except perhaps, since no one has contacted you, you can try to put it out of your head for a few months. My allowed leave was 16 weeks, half unpaid, half paid at 60%. I came back at 14 and felt ready to wrap my head around work. (Though a separate AAM post did make me feel better about still being a little woozy for the past year, since whoever said children sleep through the night after 3 months is sorely mistaken.). I feel confident you’ll be able to grapple with this much easier after the initial 3 months, if you can remind yourself that you have a lot of time and that you’re not going to think about it until then!

      Congratulations.

    6. DataGirl*

      I am sorry for this situation. Do you live in a country where your health insurance is covered by the State while you are on parental leave, or is it covered by the company? I ask because my babies were born in Germany (I live in the US now), and when I was on leave my benefits were covered by the State. During my second leave the company (based in the UK) dissolved their German branch, but they could not fire me because of the laws around parental leave. So I negotiated a generous severance package which allowed them to get rid of me and gave me some income when I was ready to return to the workforce and was looking for work. I’m wondering if you could negotiate something similar, assuming that it wouldn’t affect your insurance coverage?

      Congrats on baby! I hope you can find a way to not think about work and enjoy your time with them.

    7. Bloopmaster*

      Congrats! Good advice in the other comments. It’s awful that your amazing job won’t be there when you get back but the bright spot is you have most of a year before you need to face it or have another job lined up. That means a full year to adjust to this unfortunate news and to emotionally detach yourself from that job (with plenty to distract you at home!). Also A LOT can happen in a year: more reorganizations, more firings, the company’s complete collapse, a return to sanity, etc. You never know what else will have occurred by the time you are ready to return.

    8. The German Chick*

      What a bummer!
      Thein again, isn’t it kind of lucky that this happened while you’re on parental leave? Imagine you were still working there and had to job search while working. I would probably try to enjoy the parental leave as much as possible and initiate the job search in 7 to 8 months from now. Good luck and congrats on your baby!

    9. Policy Wonk*

      Congrats on the baby! I’m really sorry about your job issue. Just wanted to chip in my own experience with maternity leave. Some people love having the year off, and one friend never went back to work. For me, however, after about three months off I found I really missed the intellectual challenge of my job and wanted to return.
      Give yourself some time, as you are still in what I think of as the zombie phase of parenting, but don’t be surprised if you start missing work. If you do, use that as your signal to start your job hunt. Good luck!

    10. Dr. Glowcat Twinklepuff*

      That’s awful :( but I think you should enjoy your baby now, and try to detach from this mess. You can start looking around in a few months, but try to keep in touch with your old boss: she may be hiring from her new place.
      Congrats for the baby!

    12. JR*

      That sounds really stressful! I especially relate to the feeling of wanting to know exactly how things are going to unfold, when you’re in a time of so much change. It also sounds like the kind of thing that I would fixate on, given how anxiety-producing the early weeks of parenting often are. So this is easier said than done, but I’d really try to put all of this out of your head for six months – literally put a date on the calendar and tell yourself you’ll worry about it then. So much can change in that time, not only in terms of your readiness to job search, but also at work. Maybe the COO’s incompetence will reveal itself and he won’t even be there anymore! As hard as it is to deal with the not knowing, I think you’re actually in a great place. You’re insulated from all of the change, so you can let things play out and then make a choice that is right for you with way more information than your colleagues in the office have right now.

    13. Orange You Glad*

      I don’t do well without knowing my next steps so putting things on my calendar helps me feel like my next steps are organized.

      I’d count backwards 6 months from when you return from leave and schedule “update resume” “update LinkedIn” “Email contacts to network for new positions” “Have lunch with mentor” and other job searching tasks on your calendar. So you know action will be taken and you can focus on your baby until those scheduled tasks come up!

  12. Anon for this*

    Advise appreciated! I work for department A, but I do my job for department B. Meaning that I am officially part of department A, but spend more days at department B. Department B is not being led well resulting in many delays (and a lot of frustrations on my side). Manager B felt that a project wasn’t going fast enough (I agree) and felt that department A should hurry up. However, the delays were being caused by department B (which manager B knows!). I have discussed the issues with my manager (A), as well as with the manager of department B (also my manager when it comes to day to day tasks). I asked how department B could solve these (recurring) issues. Manager B then said that because I made a distinction between department A and B (and I guess “choosing the side” of department A) that she wished I felt more part of department B. I feel that I am part of A and feel very connected with department B. So I don’t share her point of view. Manager B seems to know that my concerns are valid, but does not take responsibility (that would mean she would actually have to manage her team(!)). I’m struggling how to handle this. It seems like something I can’t win: if I do my job well (noticing where things go wrong and looking for a solution), I basically get accused of not being a team player if the issue is caused by department B. I have tried multiple times to find a solution together, but it is no use. Since department A was accused of not working fast enough, I felt I had no option but to make the distinction between teams and point out the source of the problem. It makes me wonder if I (or anyone) could do well in this position with this manager. Does anyone have any experience and/or advise in how to handle this? I do have support from department A (which is wonderful). Thank you in advance!

    1. ChimericalOne*

      If Manager B is saying that Dept A isn’t working fast enough — and by that, she means YOU — then she’s the one making the distinction, not you. You might try going back to her and pointing that out (in a polite, “expressing confusion” kind of way rather than a confrontational kind of way). “I’ve been thinking about what you said the other day, that you didn’t feel that I felt myself to be a part of Dept B. I guess I was a little confused, because I don’t feel like that’s true — I feel very connected to my work with B. But I am ultimately a part of A, and when you say that Dept A isn’t working fast enough, you’re talking about me and the work I do. Is there specific work that you feel that I’m not doing quickly enough?” And then, if she mentions work that’s still waiting on Dept B’s input, you can follow that up with, “As we had discussed, that project is still waiting on X from Dept B. Is there something you want me to be doing while we wait for that? /// Or, “I’m not able to move forward at all with this project without X” if that’s the case.

      Basically, just be super polite but direct and lean on confusion to force her to either state clearly what she’s currently insinuating or be forced to admit that her insinuations are incorrect. You don’t want to say “You’re wrong.” You want to say, “I don’t understand” and lay out the contradictions while remaining “curious” and calm rather than confrontational.

  13. A. Ham*

    Are desktop or screen attached “Rear-view Mirrors” creepy? I’m not trying to spy on my office-mates, I’m just trying to see the door- because my desk is configured with my back to the door and it drives me a little bonkers. Before anyone asks, When I first started I did try having my desk rotated to the other direction, but because of the small-ish office I share, it ended up being more cumbersome to get in and out and also a little claustrophobic. For the most part my desk setup is perfectly comfortable now, but I don’t like my back to the door- particularly on the occasion when I am alone. For anyone that has co-workers that use mirrors- are you creeped out by it?

    1. ThinMint*

      I have had coworkers who use them because of the way their desks sit as well. I don’t find it creepy because if I was sitting like that, I would want to know as well.

    2. Jamie*

      No. I keep meaning to get one as I have a hyper startle reflex and sit with my back to the door atm. Nothing creepy about wanting to see if someone is coming up behind you.

    3. ThatGirl*

      I think it’s fine, I have had various co-workers over the years with little mirrors because they don’t want to be snuck up on. I currently have my back to the main corridor and am considering a mirror myself.

    4. Amy Sly*

      You could try to minimize the “spy” aspect by getting a convex butler-style mirror. You’ll be able to see that someone is there, but the image will be sufficiently distorted that reasonable people should realize that you can’t see much beyond shapes and movement.

    5. CatCat*

      I don’t think they’re creepy. I startle easily and would definitely have one if I had a desk positions so I could not see people coming up behind me.

    6. Facepalm*

      I’ve had multiple coworkers that used them and have never been creeped out by them. I was kind of glad of them b/c it meant less chance of startling someone

    8. Dispatch from a cubicle*

      It doesn’t creep me out, but they do make me laugh – I had a colleague with one who requested that I not walk past her cubicle anymore because she could see me walking by in the mirror and I just walked “so intently” that it made her uncomfortable. I was very caught off guard by the request and thankfully that colleague retired not long after so it wasn’t a big deal but now I associate cubicle mirrors with walk-policing. Don’t look too intent on your task!!

      2. Joielle*

        Haha! What does that even mean?? I think I would have laughed before realizing it was not a joke, probably making the situation much worse.

    10. texpat*

      We got one for one of our coworkers who is in a four-person office (with a fairly large conference table in the middle, so not a small room) with her back to the door. She uses soundproof headphones and often can really “get in the zone” even without them, and people kept startling her because the only way to get her attention naturally was to stand against the wall and slide into her peripheral vision. The mirror has been very helpful, and definitely nobody thinks of it as creepy. Probably helps that because of where her desk is positioned, nobody else’s screen is reflected in the mirror.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I had to deal with this at Exjob, where my cube was configured so my back was to the entrance. (For the record, I don’t like sitting with my back to the door anywhere.) Once, Coworker came up behind me when I was concentrating and said “Elizabeth,” and scared me so bad I almost fell out of my chair. I jerked around so fast I scared HER. After that, I put a little poster up outside my cube that said “please knock if I’m wearing headphones!”

    11. voyager1*

      Everyone I know who has used them were women who got them to do theirs make up but in the end used to just make sure management couldn’t sneak up on them because they goofed off on the Internet.

      When I see them now, I think slacker.

      1. Short Time Lurker Komo*

        That’s amusing to me – nearly everyone in my office that has them are male! Everyone here uses it because our work habits tend to mean we have headphones on, and without a mirror, it can be hard to realize the sound of someone knocking is for my cube as opposed to a neighbor’s cube.

    12. KayDeeAye (formerly Kathleen_A)*

      Oh, I hope they aren’t creepy because *my* desk is positioned this way, too, there’s not really a good way to change it, and this sounds like such a great idea!

    13. Llama Face!*

      No and I actually was thinking of getting one as a present for an easily startled coworker whose desk is unfortunately stuck in the middle of office traffic flow (not adjustable due to space limitations).

    14. Donkey Hotey*

      Don’t find the mirrors creepy. I -h-a-t-e- people walking up behind me (especially those who just stand there and don’t announce themselves, assuming I will “just notice” them.)

    15. Half-Caf Latte*

      Just tell people that you’re writing like you’re running out of time, and you get so focused on your work that it helps to have an alert signal!

    16. Akcipitrokulo*

      Co-worker in bank of desks next to me has one. I think I’m the onky one who’s noticed, and I think it’s cool :)

    17. Kiki*

      Not creepy! I think it makes sense and the way your desk is currently positioned would make it pretty obvious to coworkers why you have it.

    18. Scott M.*

      These are totally normal. I’ve never heard of anyone annoyed by them.
      Now, cameras pointed at coworkers are another matter ;)

    19. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Subtle version is to tack up CDs, shiny side towards you. They’re just enough to show motion, but not clear enough reflection to show you details of who”s passing in the hallway.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Sometimes dark posters under glass work the same way, if your lighting is right. And I just lost time thinking back to those motivational posters with black background wondering if anyone had them hung for that reason.

  14. rogelio*

    How can I deal with an ineffective manager who is also going through a personal crisis?

    I want to be kind and helpful as she’s dealing with two relatives having serious health crises. One has a long term issue, and the second recently has taken a turn for the worse. Our small team keeps abreast of her meetings and assignments and covers her as she’s often out unexpectedly. I’ve got no problem with that and want to be supportive.

    But she’s a difficult person. There have been major communication and workplace issues that remain uncorrected since she started a year ago. She’s a condescending bully, is months late on our annual reviews, and sends vague, large scale requests with unreasonable deadlines etc.

    We met with her as at team to discuss creating norms about communication styles, timelines, management’s long term goals to us help plan ahead. Nothing sticks. Her director hired her and isn’t particularly trustworthy, so I’m not sure how to bring this up to her more than we already have.

    I’m not sure what to do other than find a new job. Any advice for the short term? Thank you.

    1. TimeTravlR*

      Good luck with that, I have been dealing with something similar for almost 5 years. Grandboss always seems to have some kind of family emergency to deal with though, so at this point, even that is suspect. But communication is horrible.
      I actually am contemplating finding another job in another department because I just hate working for him. But I love everyone else!!

    2. LGC*

      I’m really sorry! I hope that everything works out for the best for her, first and foremost – even if she’s a jerk at work, that’s still awful to go through!

      I was originally going to suggest going to the director as a group anyway, but it seems like your deliverables might be fine – it’s just her behavior is an issue. And because she’s a”bully” and the director “isn’t particularly trustworthy,” I’d worry about blowback. I’d also really focus on the performance reviews for now, since that’s the place where she can take the most immediate and direct action. If she doesn’t get the performance reviews done in the next…month or so, I’d probably go to the director at that point. And it shouldn’t be about your manager being a jerk (although she is) – it should be framed as “our manager is going through a rough time and this important thing has fallen through the cracks, how can we resolve this?”

      This is kind of nuclear, I’ll admit, and fairly high risk. But your alternative is to just let her “forget” your annual review (and possibly “forget” to make you eligible for raises).

  15. Annie Porter*

    Hey all!

    So last February, I left a pretty toxic (but lucrative) job for a wonderfully progressive company. The only downside is I’ve taken a salary hit. After several major, unexpected expenses, I’m feeling the pinch. My question is, do any of you have side gigs/hustles that you enjoy? I’m looking to do something, but I’m not sure what. And, this may seem silly, but I feel like I’ve aged out of certain side hustles (bartending, etc.) Please know I think there is NOTHING wrong with bartending, I’m just too tired! :)

    Thanks for any ideas!

    1. Spreadsheets and Books*

      I freelance write. I’ve been doing it for almost a decade now, since I was in college.

      I sucks working after work, but I can do it lying on the couch watching TV, so it could be worse. I

        1. Spreadsheets and Books*

          By accident, kind of. I was a creating writing major in undergrad so when someone suggested it to me, I was all over it. If you google “content writing platforms” there are a lot of options out there. Content mills (somewhat of a derogatory term in the writing world due to the comparatively low pay and low quality implications) make up the majority of the writing-specific freelance marketplaces. They allow you to create an account and claim content orders from clients as a ghostwriter. Pay can range from 1-10 cpw. The alternative is to set up your own website and start cold contacting clients, trying to offer services. Working for yourself is generally more profitable because you can set your own rates, but building a client base is harder.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I had a part time job for 10 years. If you are thinking about retail, then this is a great time to do a seasonal job and test it out. I’d suggest doing something you are really interested in…the guitar store, Aveda shop, the new age bookstore…whatever you are interested in, they would be happy to have some extra help for the next 5 months.

      1. TimeTravlR*

        I did seasonal work when I was young. It was great. Gave me lots of cash and no time to spend it! LOL

    4. ChimericalOne*

      Depending on how you feel about driving, there’s always the gig economy — my husband drives for Instacart, for example, and that’s not too bad. (He gets an order, goes & picks out the requested groceries from the requested store, and delivers to the customer’s house/apt.) You’re incentivized to work more hours rather than less, but you can generally choose when to work & when not to.

        1. lemon*

          Last I checked, in some cities Instacart has a “shopper” option that doesn’t require you to drive. You just shop the order at the store, and hand it off to the driver. Might be worth looking into.

    5. Bearimy of the Month*

      My spouse hosts trivia games at bars. He does it twice a week for a company that has contracts with different bars in the area, and sometimes he hosts private games for them, too. He’s an independent contractor, so it wouldn’t work as his main gig, but the money is useful.

    6. DataGirl*

      Retail sucks and doesn’t pay well, but a lot of places are hiring right now for seasonal work. Maybe something related to a hobby/interest? I’m a crafter so I’ve done part-time at places like JoAnn’s or Michael’s, you still have the stress of retail but at least it’s a nice environment.

    7. Liz*

      I sell online, Poshmark, Mercari etc. Started with my own stuff, but now i seek out items (thrifting, rummage sales, etc.) to resell. I love to shop, and this helps with that plus its like a treasure hunt! In recent days I’ve sold a vintage wool sweater I paid $1 for, for $25, and expensive jeans, over $200 retail, that i also paid $1 for, for $50, and so on. I like it because i can do it when i choose. the only downside is its unpredictable.

      1. Caterpie*

        I’ve heard of this working out well for people! I’ve been curious about it as my workplace is near an extremely expensive university and I go to the nearby thrift store sometimes. It seems like a lot of the students will donate their (high end) wardrobe as opposed to bringing it all home for summer so May-June is a great time to shop.

    8. MissGirl*

      I’m a ski instructor but the resorts hire an army of part time workers in different roles. A lot of people do holidays and the occasional weekend to get extra money and passes. It actually pays well for a part time job.

      1. DataGirl*

        My 75 year old retired dad works as a lift operator at the local ski resort just for thew free ski pass and locker. Those things are expensive!

    9. zora*

      Also in the seasonal vein: catering companies! I have done catering on and off, and they will be looking for extra people for the holidays. Catering serving and bartending is simpler than restaurant work, and the hours are often better: lots of weekend day events and not necessarily having to work till 2am close.

    10. Turtlewings*

      My best friend does tarot readings, and even teaches tarot classes, as a side-hustle. She puts a lot into it, too — tarot involves a lot of memorization and interpretation, with a hefty dash of psychology and people skills. There’s definitely a market for it in certain circles!

    11. Database Developer Dude*

      I have two side hustles:
      1. I’m a Chief Warrant Officer in the Army Reserve.
      2. i’m a mobile notary public.

    12. RecoveringSWO*

      If you are into sports, being a referee is a side hustle that doesn’t really feel like work. Some venues also pay people to score games. It’s a nice way to be active if you have an office job.

    13. All Hail Queen Sally*

      I teach various needlework classes for my local university’s Continuing Education program on Saturday mornings. Only downfalls are having to schedule them six months in advance, and I don’t get paid for planning time. It’s not going to make me rich, but I love it and get to meet some really nice people.

    14. Meepmeep*

      Tutoring. I actually made it my full time job for a few years, and loved it. My parents make a living at it as their retirement occupation. It’s great fun and pays well.

    15. TM*

      Census is hiring! They are apparently worried about having enough folks while unemployment is so low, so they are aggressively recruiting. Short term, of course, and I don’t know what the opportunities look like (and they probably vary by area) but definitely worth looking in to!

  16. Shoobeedoo*

    Day dream scenario here:
    If you won the Power Ball – let’s say you were the sole winner of $100 mil – how would you quit your job?

    I would go on as normal until I had the first bit of money hit my bank account. I don’t think it would feel real for me up until that point! As soon as I saw the $$$ hit, I would walk into work the next day and quit on the spot. No 2 weeks, sorry folks, you’ll have to figure it out! And then I would move next door to Kim K.

    What would YOU do?!

    1. ThinMint*

      I would let my boss know soon that I won, but we have a very good relationship. I would advise that I will be quitting once the logistics and money are settled, but that I anticipate committing to another 6 months.

      I wouldn’t tell others in my office though, and when it was announced at a more reasonable timeframe that I am leaving, I wouldn’t tell them why.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        This is about where I am, tbh. Nobody’s irreplaceable, but it would be complicated to replace me and would certainly take time. I would offer to waive salary in the notice period because it’s a small company and that would make a big difference to the affordability of the hiring process. My boss and I have had “hit by the lottery bus” contingency planning meetings before!

        I also think that gently resigning, rather than quitting in fish or in song, would better mask your chief reason for doing so.

        It’s a >$100m equivalent jackpot tonight (and here lottery winnings are tax free) so fingers crossed…

      2. Picard*

        Like ThinMint, I would not want to abandon my post (so to speak) I like my boss and my staff and as I am a C-level, there would be A LOT of training for my replacement. I would also prefer that my win not be made public so I would be inclined to just give my notice with about 3 or so months…

        1. Iron Chef Boyardee*

          I would also prefer that my win not be made public

          In many states, I don’t think that’s an option.

    2. time for tea*

      It would depend for me on how to set up independent health care away from my job, which might take a while to set up, I have no idea. I’d like to say I’d quit, but there’s various benefits that come from being employed. So I’d have to transition, which could take a few months.

      But then I’m gone and off to get that vanity PhD that would be awesome but would never get me a job in any paying field. ;)

        1. TooTiredToThink*

          Oh; its quite easy to get insurance without a job; the premiums are much higher (of course) but if you’ve won 100 million; that tradeoff is worth not working anymore :)

      2. Just Another Manic Millie*

        That’s exactly what I was thinking. I’m retired, but if I had won $100 million when I was working, I wouldn’t have quit my job on the spot, because I would have wanted to get COBRA, and I wouldn’t have been sure if a company was allowed to deny COBRA to people who didn’t give two weeks notice. I also would have waited until the money hit my bank account, although I’m sure that everyone in my company would have known that I won before I had the chance to tell them, because they seem to broadcast the identity of lottery winners as soon as possible.

    3. Jamie*

      I would give 2 weeks (I haven’t been here long enough to warrant more) because I like my boss and co-workers and would want to give them a smooth handoff.

      I would say I was leaving for personal reasons, though. No way would I tell people I won the lottery. (totally hypothetical for me since I don’t play and rumor has it you can never win that way.)

      1. Aggretsuko*

        Depends on where you live, but lottery winners in most states don’t have the right to be anonymous about it.

        1. SarahTheEntwife*

          Sure, but your coworkers might or might not be looking for the names of lottery winners. If one of my coworkers won I would probably have no idea unless they told me.

          1. Wishing You Well*

            Oh, big news travels fast. Someone will tell you – unsolicited – who won a lottery if they even remotely know the person.
            I’d love to be in one of those states that lets you to stay anonymous. If I win, I’d get a lawyer to set up an anonymous trust and claim the prize through the trust. I hope that’ll work because being identified as a big jackpot winner can have its downside.

            1. Iron Chef Boyardee*

              That’s why if I won I’d take the installment payments, not the lump sum. You’ve got a guaranteed income for a couple of decades plus, so you can’t piss it all away in one shot, and if you have a good financial advisor you can parlay your winnings into a guaranteed income for life.

              1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

                In the UK we have a special draw each week called “set for life” where the prize is £10k a month for 30 years (tax free). It’s not particularly popular but I think it’s life changing in a very positive and sustainable way.

                The second prize is £10k/m for a year. What a year!

    4. PharmaCat*

      I might keep my job for 3 months, just to make sure that I was sure on the decision. I would not buy a large home immediately but would travel for a year. That, and get my family set up financially as well.

    5. ThatGirl*

      I’d go on as normal but start documenting anything I thought needed documentation, cleaning out folders, etc. and then give notice as soon as the money was real. (And then I’d spend lots of time with lawyers and financial advisers getting things straightened out.)

    6. pally*

      I wouldn’t say a word to anyone. No change to my life either. Then when the money shows up, I’d continue to lay low for a good long time.

      (meanwhile, I’d be carefully planning out all the details of my new life- where to live, my new name, etc.)

      Then one day, I’d just disappear. No notice. No forwarding address. No means to track me down. Might even run an obit in the local paper.

      People get very strange (meaning desperate) when they find out you have money. Don’t want any of that around me.

    7. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      I would probably wait until the money hit the respective bank accounts (on and offshore- LOL) and then do my best rendition of ‘so long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen’ as I’m driving my big ole RV out of the parking lot to our next destination. Husband and I have these conversations all the time!

      Since I’m in non-profit, I would also talk to the E.D. and Board President about an investment.

    8. Facepalm*

      I am lucky to live in a state where you don’t have to publicly come forward, so my main goal would be preserving my anonymity to everyone who knows me, including work and neighbors. I would quietly claim the money, set up all the trusts/investments/etc and keep working for at least 6 months or a year so no one would know it was me. Then I would say I lucked into a remote position and tender my resignation that way. Keep living in my house for awhile. No major visible purchases, new autos, etc. Then when the media speculation had died down. I’d quietly move away to the tropical island whose purchase I’d been finalizing.

      1. TooTiredToThink*

        Pretty much all this – although I have good excuses for resigning with notice that people around me would believe so I would only have to work until the money hit the bank.

    9. ChimericalOne*

      I don’t know that I would quit my job, actually! I like my job. (I would tell my husband that he could quit his & become a full-time homemaker, though!)

    10. CatCat*

      I’d tell my boss about the situation and work with him on making a transition/exit plan. I like my job so I’d see if they’d be interested in hiring me on a project-based contractor. That way I could work from wherever I wanted, which would be a necessity since I’ll be globetrotting. They don’t let employees have that kind of telework liberty.

    11. MsChaos*

      Being a teacher, I would feel obligated to finish out the year. It would throw my school and department (Special Education) into a cesspool of turmoil, not because I consider myself so great, but because I’m the only one holding the position I hold in our school. Or I would stay on pro bono so that they could hire someone right off, and I could work alongside them for a month or so to help the transition, since our school is rather unique in its community and culture, even as public schools go.

    12. Ama*

      At my current job, I think I would probably give them about a month or so of notice, but I would also be willing to work out a consulting arrangement to help train my replacement for the first year (our project cycle is basically about a year in length). But I’d be super firm about exactly how many hours I could manage and when I’d expect that arrangement to end. I would do this because I really like my coworkers, I know that my role is a tricky one that wouldn’t be easy to cover, and most importantly, I trust them to respect my boundaries (we have some people who have retired who occasionally pop in to advise new employees in their old roles and that has worked well).

      At my last job I absolutely would have quit on the spot and refused to answer any calls or emails, and in fact I may have fantasized about doing so regularly my last couple of years there.

    13. Nessun*

      I would continue working with my group, in my current job (they are awesome people, and it would be difficult to easily replace my role, given the lack of easy explanation of WTH I do). I’d also immediately ask my trusted coworkers for a financial advisor/personal banker reference…what can I say, I work with accountants!

      Seriously, I would work, at least for a few more years (I’m in my early 40s), and I would have the most EPIC vacations. I’d also put all my sisters’ kids through school…but I wouldn’t quit. I need structure, and I need outside validation, so I am best suited to working with a group where others can give me praise, comments, and feedback. Until I could find another way to source that, I’d not go anywhere.

    14. PolarVortex*

      Continue working, seriously consider what I want to do with my future and then job hunt accordingly and leisurely. Because I’d get bored not working, but at least with all the $ I can do a non-profit job that could make me happy, or find a job that I could do while traveling, or go back to school and become a lawyer for the ACLU and do a ton of pro bono work…

    15. Just Peachy*

      My spouse and I are debt free (just finished paying off his grad school loans!) but if we weren’t, I’d start there. We’re not saving for a down payment for our first home, so I’d definitely immediately put $ towards that. I’d also quit my job (with a 2 week notice, just because I like my coworkers) and then travel the world for several months.

    16. Llellayena*

      I wouldn’t quit, I love my job. I would negotiate for a few (unpaid) months off every few years so I could travel. I might also use some of my winnings to allow my company to do some pro-bono work, not sure how that would work though.

      1. Joielle*

        Same! Ideally, I’d want to go part time – maybe a job share or something – and take a few long vacations a year. Maybe work remotely. I like my job and I need structure.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Three day work week, four day weekend. And acreage with a barn so I can keep a couple of horses and trade stall space to someone with more energy & less cash in exchange for her shoveling my horse”s manure. And sharing feeding times for all of them so we can both have vacations.

    17. Celeste*

      I’d make sure the transaction went through before I gave notice, because of Murphy’s Law. But I’d be surreptitiously taking my belongings home a little every day. If anybody said anything, I’d say I watched the show on how to Kon Mari your life. I would do a polite but expedited quit. There’s not going to be any 2 week notice, and if I have to come back to sign forms for HR, then so be it.

      1. Operation Glowing Symphony*

        “But I’d be surreptitiously taking my belongings home a little every day.”
        – This is how I told my coworkers they’d know that I finally quit: my desktop lamps would be gone.

        1. MsChaos*

          The last time I totally deep-cleaned my desk and files of the mountains of unfiled papers, stuff that needed shredding, and projects in progress, someone asked me if I was going to another school, so that would be a clue in my case.

        2. Delta Delta*

          I shawshanked my way out of a terrible job like that. Took a little over a year but I got all my stuff out little by little. The lies were hilarious. I had to get a lamp re-wired. I was loaning my dictionary to my nephew. Last day – bam – walked out empty-handed. Delightful.

          2. Mr. Shark*

            I shawshanked my way out of a terrible job like that.

            Nice, I’ve never heard Shawshank used as a verb…I like it!

    18. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Since I wouldn’t be really worried about paying bills anymore, the peace of mind would immediately improve my life even without making any purchases or quitting; but, the first thing I’d buy is a new car because I’ve been stressed for about 2 years now that any day my 2006 POS will finally die. I enjoy my work (for the most part) and really like my boss and immediate coworkers. I can’t imagine just staying home and just…watching TV? Traveling is nice for short bits but I wouldn’t want to make a whole life out of it…so I think I’d keep working until it wasn’t enjoyable anymore. I know I’m probably in a very small minority on that. I’ve watched one grandfather, my parents, and many other comfortably retired people fall into depression because after they stop having a reason to get up and a purpose to their day, they just end up sitting in a chair watching TV for the most part.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Totally agree with you, I would keep working. Retirement is a moment, but life goes on and it’s important to have a plan of how to fill up time.

        I think I would continue to live modestly and play Santa. If I saw a story about a sick kid in the news, or someone badly injured in an accident, I sit down and write out a check on the spot. That would be my idea of a satisfying life.

    19. Marzipan*

      I would carry on as normal and not tell anyone; until the next time I got really, really pissed off by something, at which point I’d dramatically quit.

    20. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’d offer my boss six months notice (but less would be okay too if they found sufficient replacement beforehand) and allude to an unexpected windfall, but I wouldn’t tell her exactly why I was leaving.

      To be honest, I wouldn’t tell anybody except my husband and my best friend if I won, and if people started guessing, I wouldn’t confirm anything.

    21. Liz*

      I may be weird but i wouldn’t quit until I had ALL my ducks in a row, including the money! I need that sense of security as well as a plan in place. So while I’d certainly start doing that ASAP, i wouldn’t quit until all my bases were covered, i.e. health insurance, and so on.

      1. MarsJenkar*

        Agreed. I’d want to have a plan in place before actually spending anything, or leaving my current employer. Only once I got the ball rolling on that front would I do anything else. I’d also resign quietly, with proper notice. After that is when I’d look at buying a new house, treehouse with minifridge, green dress (but not a real green dress; that’s cruel), and so forth.

    22. DaniCalifornia*

      I would have my boss advise me on setting up a trust under the guise of me coming into some family money. They are a CPA so he’s outlined before about what needs to be done. Then use the trust to collect my money (I’m in a state where your name can become public.)
      Then when the money hits, I’d quit. Possibly without notice because my boss and supervisor and this company are terrible.

    23. Seifer*

      Oooh I like this one.

      So absolutely yes to waiting for the money to hit the account. Until then, I would continue on as normal while making plans and transfers during lunch breaks and after work. Stuff like setting up high yield long term accounts, padding my savings, paying off the house, taking care of my parents, getting a Tesla, changing my name to Regina Phalange. And once that’s all settled and the dust has cleared, I’d probably just come in and tell my boss. Closed door conversation. I don’t want to freak him out by just disappearing, especially since I’ve been pretty open about my mental health struggles with him, and we were friends before. I don’t know that I would offer to stay to help wrap things up though, because it’s gotten pretty terrible at the job. I would also ask my boss not to tell anyone at work, because I would 100% expect that someone would ask me to donate money back to the company. Oh, that got depressing. I suppose I can pay for better therapy with my lottery winnings though, ha!

    24. The Rain In Spain*

      I’m not so sure I would quit my job, not immediately at least (I am VERY fortunate to now have a job I love with a great team). I would perhaps negotiate for additional unpaid leave so I could travel more. Ultimately I would want to transition to non-profit work, so once I had everything set up in terms of finances/trusts/etc, I would probably offer a long notice period so they could find a good replacement and the rest of the team wasn’t slammed without my replacement.

      Now my last job? I would wait a few months (gleeful, knowing that I had an out, finally!) and then give them 2 weeks’ notice. They definitely didn’t deserve more than that.

    25. Penny*

      I would give notice, and agree to taper and stick around to help with my replacement. I like my employer and don’t want to leave them hanging, but would be more than happy to not work anymore. I have enough of a cushion that if for some reason there was a gap between when I stopped working and received the winnings, I’d be fine.

      #2 would be to hire a financial planner. I wouldn’t know where to start in figuring out the best way to manage all of that.

    26. MoopySwarpet*

      Hire a replacement and work part time (as needed) remotely from any city in the world. For our weekly meetings, I’ll send little clues so everyone can play “where in the world is MoopySwarpet” as an icebreaker. ;)

    27. Pescadero*

      I’d offer to donate $1 million to the university department where I work if they stripped our former department head of tenure and fired him.

      Then I’d bail, and never be seen again.

      1. Academic Tenure Track Librarian*

        I wish I had thought of this. Yes! This. Thank you. I am gleeful at the thought!

    28. pumpkin on da shelf*

      It seems I am the only one desirous of going through the office, Oprah-style, saying:

      And you get a FU, and you get a FU, everyone gets a FU!

      oh, and I see you over there hiding, FFFF UUUU TOOO!

      Once the money is confirmed, of course. Maybe I should start playing the lottery?

    29. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

      I’m super into my new job, and it is work I am passionate about, so I would definitely continue to the end of my 5 year contract. After that I would become a consultant and only ever work on projects that I find interesting. Would be so fun being able to ignore the salary and just do the, “Huh, that sounds cool” work

    30. Supervising Librarian*

      I wouldn’t quit my job.
      I would spend the money hiring someone to do the work I hate to do and I would only go to work 3 days a week to do the stuff I like.

    31. Shark Whisperer*

      I actually really like my job and I think I would go crazy with nothing to do, so I probably wouldn’t quit. I probably would buy a small house a bit farther out in the country and hire a personal driver to drive me to any work things. (I work from home but occasionally have meetings in the city)

    32. Delta Delta*

      I had this fantasy a lot when I was working in a very toxic place. I’d not tell anyone but just give notice, wrap things up, and leave. Then I’d be an anonymous benefactor to pay down my former colleagues’ student debt, but not the bully colleague’s debt. I also considered using the money to form an anonymous LLC to buy the buildings around the bad job’s building and do all sorts of annoying construction. I’m evil-cackling at myself right now.

    33. curly sue*

      I love everything about my job and my department — except for the constant stress of contract renewals and benefit-less precarious adjunct status + the side-hustles to keep the lights on because adjuncts are paid crap.

      So I would keep doing exactly what I’m doing, but without any money stress, and with the ability to take a sabbatical year for really interesting research trips every once in a while. It would be GLORIOUS.

    34. Elizabeth West*

      I would not quit until I had all the financials worked out with a certified adviser to cover the rest of my life. Then I’d give two weeks notice, but I wouldn’t tell anyone I won the lottery. I’d probably just say I decided to move.

      If I liked what I was doing, and/or was in a location I liked, I might just keep working for a while. But I’ve never had a job I would want to stay in if I suddenly didn’t have to work anymore.

    35. Cog in the Machine*

      I like my job, and I’d go stir-crazy if I didn’t have anything to do with my life, so I probably wouldn’t just quit. I’d get all of the paperwork and trust stuff done on the dl before I even claimed a big winning like that, and then the winnings would be in the name of the trust.
      I would have to have a chat with HR, though, because I would probably need to move in order to not get pestered by everybody else in town. (It’s a really small town.) If there wasn’t another location open that I wanted to live in and that I qualified for, I probably would quit and come back as a contract employee.

    36. LCH*

      i like my job, bosses, organization so i would give enough notice for them to hire someone and have me train them if they wanted.

    37. WantonSeedStitch*

      I work in prospect research in a university advancement office. One of the things we’re responsible for is rating alumni and donors for financial capacity when we have reason to believe they are able to make a significant gift. Staff members in our overall department are in our database along with donors and alumni so we can track our work, add tasks for which we’re responsible, etc. My coworkers and I have gone in on Powerball pools, and have joked that if we won, we’d come into the office, change all of our capacity ratings in the system to basically “super rich,” and go home!

      Realistically speaking, I love my job, and if I were to win the lottery, I’d wait until I got all my financial ducks in a row before quitting, and I’d give a good long notice period so I wouldn’t put the folks in my office through too much hardship. They’re great people, and I wouldn’t want to leave them in the lurch.

    38. Database Developer Dude*

      I wouldn’t quit. I would claim the prize anonymously, and then buy my mother a house. Then I would offer to pay for taekwondo lessons for this one guy at work….until he became a black belt. Why would I do this? For the sole purpose of meeting him someday in a tournament, and LEGALLY beating him up. Yeah, he’s that much of a condescending jerk.

    39. A Frayed Knot*

      I’ve thought about this. A Lot. Down to how much money each relative gets (one time only; don’t ask for any more); which friends get put on my payroll (because I have to have someone to hang out with and travel with so I’m not lonely); and which volunteer projects I will continue to do, now that I have time to do what I want. I just haven’t figured out how to get the name of Tiger Woods’ financial advisor – I want someone who is used to dealing with large sums of money.

    40. Scott M.*

      I always thought I would work for a while, just to see how it feels. Maybe I would like my job more when I know that I don’t need it. I could do more of the “better to ask forgiveness than ask permission” stuff.

    41. Gumby*

      Well, first I’d hire a lawyer to figure out how to keep my name out of the news. Apparently it is *very* important to do that before you claim any money. Then I’d take a longish (2 w? 1 mon?) vacation. There are a few tasks at work that no one else right now knows how to do because I have owned them since their inception so it is all my system but those only take maybe 15-20% of my time. I’d probably agree to keep doing those, remotely, for a generous transition period. I’d not be in a hurry to run away from my job because I do find it relatively enjoyable, but I would be out eventually. I’d need to free up my time to take classes (I like school) and run the charitable foundation that the lawyer would have also helped to set up. My job running the foundation would have generous time off for travel. (I have also agreed to run the foundation if my mother or either sister wins the lottery. It was a whole conversation at one point. The only time we ever play the lottery is the scratchers in our Christmas stockings so I’m not too worried about needing those job skills any time soon.)

      1. Gumby*

        Ack, turns out I can’t stay anonymous here. Guess I’m hiring security with some of that cash. Also moving, changing my phone number, etc.

    42. Mr. Shark*

      1. Make sure I have the money, that’s the first thing.
      2. Quit. I wouldn’t give two week’s notice, because honestly, I wouldn’t get anything done those two weeks. People would be bothering me, and I would be too giddy to focus on anything. They can survive without me if they needed to.
      3. Throw a big party for my friends and family, including some people from work. Maybe have it in Vegas, don’t know exactly. It depends on how big I decide it should be. Maybe spend $100 grand on it.
      4. Hire a financial adviser. Disappear with him/her to some small location away from everything and set up my accounts and plan everything so that I can live off of the money the rest of my life.
      5. I would have money set aside for each family member, probably some amount of friends, and of course, a new house (or two) and a new car (or two) for me.
      6. Travel a few times a year.
      7. Set up a business to work at when I’m interested in working. Otherwise hire good people to run it so that I have money coming in.
      8. Hire Alison to be a manager and run things part time (not sure how she’d do on business, but on the HR side and interpersonal relationships at work, she’d knock it out of the park). She could keep her AAM job, too.
      9. Travel to see sporting events and concerts, with the best tickets and VIP service.

    43. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

      Honestly… I wouldn’t.
      I would quietly be putting some away into savings, giving my family as much as I can without forking up their taxes, buying myself a modest home, and then giving the majority away to meaningful causes. I don’t need extreme wealth – I don’t think anybody does. I just want to have enough to comfortably live my life and have some extra to do nice things for other people.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        One of my fantasy lottery spends is to buy my friends’ houses so I can immediately reduce their rent to like £1pcm inc bills and fix all the niggles (replace old boilers, fit new kitchens, etc).

        There’s also a fantasy plan to build a resort like a commune so people can come and see us and spend a week or whatever reading and having massages and going for walks in the fresh air with plenty of safe adults to entertain and feed the children.

        The best thing you can do with money is get it moving. A $20 bill can do $1000 of work in a year if it keeps moving. Ideally you’d die with just enough money to cover your funeral, having made every other penny work to improve people’s lives.

    44. Alex*

      I’d like to echo all the totally rational “I’d wait until the money came in and then give a nice amount of notice and be all kinds of reasonable.”

      Except that’s not really what I’d do. I know I’d be running around with both middle fingers in the air yelling “I’m rich and I quit, motherf*&#$%s!” I may or may not moon my boss on my way out.

      Yes, it would be inconvenient for them for me to leave without notice, but no one would die.

    45. Don't get salty*

      Wow! I’m not so sure I would quit right away because my job is so awesome right now (after so many years!), I love what I do and I just got promoted. I would just taper my time at work and retire early. Maybe I would quit work within five to ten years (maybe not). Maybe the new money would be so enticing that I would be tempted to quit on the spot.

      If I’d seen this question two or so years ago (when things were really bad and my team shrank from over 12 to two), I would’ve said that I’d give everyone more than standard notice that I planned on leaving only because I believe strongly in the mission. But thinking about it now, as I write this, it might not be easy for me to leave in any case. My team is still very small, but growing, and one person leaving would have a huge effect on everyone else’s workload. I’m too conscientious to think about stuff like this; it’ll be on my mind all weekend.

      It’s so funny, my colleague and I were just talking about this. My colleague was asking me whether or not I planned to retire early like I had been saying over the years. After thinking about it for a while, I realized that I wouldn’t really have much to do if I retired and I would get very bored. I could always travel, but I really need to be occupied and doing something meaningful with my life in order to feel fulfilled.

      Forgive me for the stream-of-consciousness.

    46. Don't get salty*

      Wow! I’m not so sure I would quit right away because my job is so awesome right now (after so many years!), I love what I do and I just got promoted. I would just taper my time at work and retire early (or not). Maybe I would quit work within five to ten years (maybe not). Maybe the new money would be so enticing that I would be tempted to quit on the spot.

      If I’d seen this question two or so years ago (when things were really bad and my team shrank from over 12 to two), I would’ve said that I’d give everyone more than standard notice that I planned on leaving only because I believe strongly in the mission. But thinking about it now, as I write this, it might not be easy for me to leave in any case. My team is still very small, but growing, and one person leaving would have a huge effect on everyone else’s workload. I’m too conscientious to think about stuff like this; it’ll be on my mind all weekend.

      It’s so funny, my colleague was just asking me whether or not I planned to retire early like I had been saying over the years. After thinking about it for a while, I realized that I wouldn’t really have much to do if I retired and I would get very bored. I could always travel, but I really need to be occupied and doing something meaningful with my life in order to feel fulfilled.

      I already have a financial planner. I’m very good at saving and I have build up a sizable portfolio for myself, so I would just segue the additional money and let it be while I’m deciding what to do with my future. The one thing I definitely would not do is alert anyone (not friends, not family) until I am well-secured and out of touch (and even then, maybe not).

      Forgive me for the stream-of-consciousness.

    47. Bilateralrope*

      I’m already looking for a new job, in part because we are understaffed here. My employer is trying to recruit more staff, but they keep failing the clients background check. I’m already looking forward to the look on my managers face when I give him my notice in person.

      A lotto win wont have a new job setting a fixed timeline for my resignation. So a few things are going to come into play after I sort my finances and give notice:
      – In a few weeks the client is going to become harder to contact due to holidays.
      – I firmly believe in not burning bridges without good reason.
      – My manager is good at talking me into shifts I haven’t wanted to do, unless I have a reason that makes me push back.
      – One of my flatmates knows a supervisor at my employer. So I wont be able to hide my lack of a new job. Moving out before giving notice isnt practical because I work nights.

      So I can see me giving 2 weeks notice after sorting finances. Then getting talked into staying there for a bit longer than planed.

    48. SAHM*

      Pay off my house, pay off my moms house, buy my brothers & sisters each a house, buy each of my kids a house and rent each one out(until they go to college then they can sell it and use it to buy a house near their college or continue to rent it out and use the $ for dorm), set up trusts for my kids and nephews & nieces, take everyone on a giant family vacation to Hawaii and then use whatever is left to invest, donate to charity, and keep for yearly lavish vacations. Would probably go find a job (money for childcare!), hubs would not quit his job, but it would be a lot less worried about finances and more managing the finances.

    49. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      The way I see it, I’ve already “won the lottery” by having a job I love enough to want to stay anyway. (Yes, even if I also won the kind of lottery you’re talking about.)

      But I understand why many people would quit.

    50. Kat in VA*

      I honestly wouldn’t say anything until I got an estate lawyer, a personal lawyer, and a financial advisor on board first. I understand long-lost family comes out of the woodwork, along with every swing-on, sob story, and grifter in the area.

      Then once the first check hits, I’d quit politely and take the entire office out to lunch. :P

  17. Amy Sly*

    I hope there are a few legal industry folks who can offer some advice. I graduated law school almost ten years ago and haven’t established any kind of career since then. I sold shoes, took law school off my resume to get a quality control job with an appraisal management company, worked process auditing at a large bank, reviewed documents as a temp in a doc review firm, and am now doing contract administration work in industry. I’m discovering that I’m actually pretty miserable in my current role because I am an extrovert and not nearly as self-motivating as needed for a job that involves almost no personal interaction and has little in the way of extrinsic deadlines or structure.

    I’ve started trying to put into action the advice on motivating and organizing yourself at work, but I’m afraid that it’s going to be more like papering over a crack than solving the underlying problem. I’m halfway across the country from my family and friends, and I have practically nothing in common with my coworkers, so my needs for social interaction don’t really have an outlet. My goal at this point is to gut out at least a year in this job, both to avoid even more appearance of job hopping and to have some tangible results to put on my resume for the next one, but I’m not at all certain I want to continue in this field anyway.

    I’ve never really been in the position where I can reject a job for anything other than low pay or severe toxicity, between the scarlet JD and being desperate to move up into anything with a better salary to help with the student loans that have doubled after nearly a decade of income-based repayment. All the advice that “law school opens doors even if you don’t want to be a lawyer” seems to be pure ignorance, or at best, geared at someone leaving the field after having been successful. I’ve certainly been denied more jobs because of my education than offered ones, at any rate! On the other hand, any position geared for new lawyers would rather have someone whose education isn’t a decade old and wasn’t in the bottom of her class at a little-known law school both a thousand miles away and that didn’t subscribe to the rampant grade inflation of more prestigious schools. (i.e. “bottom of the class” means a C-, not a B+.) Thus, I’m simultaneously both too educated and too ignorant to get past the vast majority of HR gatekeepers, even if a manager might be willing to take a chance on me.

    Are there fields beyond contract admin where my education would help more than hurt, but that also don’t involve sitting at a desk by myself all day? And even possibly pay enough that I won’t be looking at a six figure tax bill for the imputed income of forgiven loans because I have no choice but to continue in income-based repayment?

    1. Eleanor Konik*

      I was in essentially your same boat, though out for less time, and more “middle of the class” (not that it matters), and I became a teacher. My JD is seen as an asset because it gives me a leg up for teaching classes like government or high-school level criminal justice classes, the students and structure provide a lot of extrinsic motivation. As an added bonus, the JD counted as a PHD for pay scales.

      Before I went back for my teaching certificate, I got a job in education that didn’t require the certification (in my area, you can teach for 2 years without one) to make sure I liked it before committing to going back to school for one.

      The toughest part was being able to afford to student teach for 6 months with no pay. I had to save up and live pretty stark for awhile.

      1. Amy Sly*

        I’ve certainly thought about teaching; I majored in it for a year, enjoyed teaching private test prep, and even applied for teaching positions back in $HomeCity during the shoe selling period of trying to find anything even remotely white collar. (And well, as someone who desperately wants kids and can’t have any, the prospect of getting to work with them does appeal.) Unfortunately, in that area at that time there were over 100 applicants for every job, so as someone with no certs I had no chance. Moreover, knowing a fair number of teachers, I know that any entry level job would be a good sized step down in pay from where I am now. We’re not hurting for money the way we were when the house was foreclosed on (with luck, we’ll actually be buying a new one in a couple months) but we can’t really afford any decrease either.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      As a friend of mine has put it, the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people that a $100,000 credential that doesn’t even cross state lines is “flexible.” Peers of mine who graduated 10 years ago (yay, Great Recession) are doing things like:

      – intermittent doc review (still! 10 years out!)
      – hanging their own shingle (this can be isolating in its own way, so it’s important to try things like subletting office space with another solo or small firm)
      – office coordinator/manager
      – media production
      – journalism
      – teaching
      – non-lawyering government employment
      – public relations

      1. Amy Sly*

        I never thought I’d say this, but there’s honestly a part of me that misses doc review. I love the PTO and benefits of the current job, but I enjoyed the coworkers and the project managers, the faster pace with new projects and reasonably clear goals and expectations, and even becoming a team lead who could mentor the new additions to the project.

        As for tricks the devil pulled, the notion that a job is personal fulfillment instead of a way to finance the things that provide personal fulfillment is definitely up there.

    3. CTT*

      Are you interested in political/social justice work? After a classmate of mine didn’t pass the bar, he started working for an immigration outreach organization. He said that it was a good match because knowing the law was an asset to working with the community the organization served, but he wasn’t practicing law. I know that’s not a 1:1 match with the contract work you’ve been doing, but if there’s something you’re passionate about that might make the switch easier.

      1. Fibchopkin*

        This- if you fancy moving to the DC metro area – most of the higher-paid, higher-titled nonprofit advocacy folks I’ve worked with have legal backgrounds. Lobbyists fall into this same boat, and even several for-profit orgs I know of have policy or advocacy slots for non-lawyer JD’s. Actually, come to think of it, the Senior Director of Advocacy and Policy at my last firm was a JD. Not sure if she was ever a practicing lawyer since I worked in a vastly different realm, but she certainly hadn’t been practicing for at least 10 years before she got that job, if she ever did. Also, if you live in a big metropolitan area, try consultant firms with legal clients – I have a number of peers in the Project and Program Management arena with JDs who specifically lead or otherwise facilitate or work with legal or political projects.

        1. Amy Sly*

          I actually did move to the DC area for six months — thankfully with free rent — but didn’t have any luck. There are seven law schools in DC alone, plus all the graduates from the prestigious law schools up the coast; that’s a lot of competition for all those JD-preferred jobs, and I wasn’t competitive, having graduated at the bottom of my class from a Midwestern third tier trash school. That’s not competitive in the “not even getting interviews” sense, not the “we just liked someone a hair better after two rounds of interviews” sense.

          As for project management, how does one break into that field? I honestly feel like Hester Prynne with my scarlet JD; from this end, it seems HR gatekeepers look at it and assume that I’m either not interested in the job and will quit as soon as possible or that I must be such a monumental screw-up to not get hired in my own field they don’t dare touch me with a 10′ pole.

    4. Hannah Banana*

      I work with a girl who went to law school and didn’t make a law career but instead went into compliance. We work at a huge med device company (fortune 100). She actually joined the company on our contracts team, drafting contracts and negotiating deals with sales people/hospitals and then moved into the compliance role.

      It is a desk job but you’re not alone and you’d be in a lot of meetings working with people. Large organizations like the one I work at pay well too :)

      1. Amy Sly*

        It’s certainly possible that I’d be happier at a larger company doing contract admin. I have a legal department I can consult for help, but they’re on the other side of the world; otherwise, it’s me, our procurement specialist who was hired the same day, and my boss who’s more like a grandboss in the scope of his responsibilities.

    5. LadyTesla*

      Are you informed in Patent law at all? I know a lot of technical companies that are always looking for advisors for when their R&D groups comes up with something new. You’re not necessarily doing any laywer-ing, but you’d be advising what the best next steps are and if you think it’s a viable option. And, it’s people facing.

      1. Amy Sly*

        Actually one of my bachelor degrees qualifies me to sit the Patent Bar, and my focus in law school was on intellectual property, with my law school thesis being on MMO virtual currency transactions. Unfortunately, I don’t have any experience in chemistry; patent prosecution positions I find want people with industry experience, while patent litigation positions would rather have someone better on the legal side on the theory that what little science they need to know can be taught more easily than the law. And again, anyone who wants legal information would rather get someone either more experienced or more recently graduated.

        1. Legally a Vacuum*

          If you sit for the patent exam and pass you’ll have a fresh new qualification. My background is biochemistry, but I’m in-house at a company where I mostly work with software patents. Maybe look to see if there is anything at a specialty site like goinhouse.com?

    6. AnonyNurse*

      Government at any level, especially state and local. Lots of JD preferred or required but you aren’t required to be barred. Procurement, contracts, regulation drafting and interpreting, FOIA requests … all those things benefit from someone with a JD. And the application structures tend to be so rigid that the timing of the education is irrelevant.

      Find a social cause you care about where you can do pro bono work that will make you feel good (GAL work, immigration applications, appeals of denials for any number of things) that will boost your self-image and possibly lead to a job.

      If you’re in the US, tax prep starting in the new year, in any sector.

      Good luck!

    7. IvyGirl*

      Development – Higher Education development – possibly at your alma mater? It could be for front facing/gift officer things or in backoffice stuff (the General Counsel office, planned giving, etc.).

      1. TM*

        Although it doesn’t seem like she thinks much of her alma mater… :)

        But this is a really good idea of a field where aspects of your education (ability to write, for example) would definitely come in handy.

    8. The Rain In Spain*

      What areas interest you? I was premed before I switched to law school and am VERY happily settled into contract negotiations for a health system. Our team is small (and we’re the only lawyers in the place), but we can consult outside counsel if we need to. I really enjoy it, the variety, and the industry is a great fit for me. I do spend a lot of time at my desk by myself, but our team is amazing, and I do meet with our end users in person quite often.

      HR/employee relations could be another option for you to consider. I really really enjoyed working with my local civil rights commission during law school- if that’s something that interests you, there’s a ton of community involvement/public speaking/etc, and the law background will only help you. If you work up to a director level role you can make a pretty good income. Compliance is another great area as others have mentioned, but you have to be interested in it. And from what I’ve seen, that’s a lot of time spent at your desk as well.

      I second what others have said re applying for jd-preferred roles you’re interested in. You can usually negotiate a salary bump too! Also, can you just leave your JD off your resume if there’s really no connection to the job? Or creatively address it in your cover letter? Networking might be a good way to help get your foot in the door – I accidentally networked my way into my current dream job!

      Good luck!

      1. Amy Sly*

        I’ve looked into both HR and compliance. The problem is that I don’t have the experience or certs that are required in the job applications I’ve seen. e.g. “HR generalist.” (Has Alison ever talked about how unqualified you have to be to not bother applying? My luck’s been so abysmal trying for both perfect matches and terrible matches that I have no idea what the rule might be.) Moreover, while I love learning to the point that I’m running out of courses to watch on Great Courses Plus, I’m pretty damn cynical about the idea that the perfect job is just one more degree/ training/ cert away.

        Maybe I’m just looking in the wrong places, but I’ve seen practically no “JD preferred” jobs in either my Midwestern $HomeCity or Southern $CurrentCity, aside from doc review. While I have left my degree off my resume before to get my first office job, now that I’ve worked doc review (and moreover moved seven hours to take a doc review job) I don’t think it would make any sense to take it off.

        As for networking, I believe Alison has pointed out that it requires actually being good at one’s job and staying in place long enough to build up contacts. Between my job hopping and moving halfway across the country, I don’t have that. Moreover, I have no clue as to how to build that network.

        1. The Rain In Spain*

          I definitely get where you’re coming from re networking. Frankly I find it awkward and uncomfortable because I’m very introverted. The way I accidentally networked was by meeting an attorney through a pro bono clinic and hitting it off. At dinner I met a friend of hers who happened to work in HR at my current place of employment and she mentioned they were looking for a contracts attorney, and it all just fell into place from there (the interview process still took months!). So if you’re interested in any pro bono work that could be a way to meet some local attorneys, which may end up helping connect you in the area. The only other networking I’ve availed myself of in the past is to reach out to alums in the area and ask for an informational interview to learn about the job market/employers in the area/etc.

          Re HR generalist roles- I would recommend you keep applying, honestly! While you may not have the certifications they want, a law degree does carry weight, and some companies will see that and want to interview you at least. I definitely struggled getting screened out of positions based on education and salary requirements- employers were worried I would leave for a more traditional role.

          sending good vibes and hoping your search goes quickly and you find something that’s a good fit!

    9. SarahTheEntwife*

      You’ll probably need further education, but does the idea of being a law librarian appeal at all? Having a JD is a huge boost in the field, and if you’re more on the research-assistance side of things it’s very extroverted work.

      1. TM*

        Also good advice – and if you end up in some sort of public sector place (like a courthouse maybe?) you could get public service loan forgiveness. I’d just wonder how many of those type of jobs are out there.

    10. drpuma*

      I have a JD and work in tech. The skill set is pretty transferable in terms of being organized, spotting issues, and being able to think/plan in terms of the internal logic of the system (not by what you think is right or wrong). I am definitely not a coder; there are a variety of project/program/product manager jobs, one of which could be a fit for you. You mention $HomeCity; if there are big corps you could probably get a contract job to get your foot in the door. My role involves a lot of communication and meetings, not bad for an extrovert.

    11. Cee Cee Dee*

      When you say contract administration, what type of industry? I am also an extrovert, Contract Admin (sans law degree) in the government contracts field working at government contractor. We work with people ALL DAY, customers, project managers, engineers, finance, security, etc. I do have to say that we sometimes get scared away from applicants with law degrees because typically they don’t do contract administration. A portion of the work is legal (document reviews), but we are basically account executives for contracts as well as lead negotiators.

      1. Amy Sly*

        Heavy industry. They brought me as contract admin and a coworker as a procurement specialist on at the same time to help get a department that had been poorly managed into shape. Basically, the operation is only a few years old, and had been more worried about getting the job done than following procedures or getting the paperwork in order. While my procurement specialist coworker is out meeting with vendors and folks on site, my job has been to try to find contracts, update the databases and contract templates, and try to turn million dollar purchase orders into master service contracts. Of course, the reason that million dollar purchase orders without contracts happen is because no one wants to talk to the paper pushers (e.g. me) and so even the part of the job that ought to involve talking to people ends up being nothing but ghosted emails.

    12. krysb*

      I work in legal tech, primarily e-discovery and all of the components surrounding the discovery process. We have project managers, review (discovery review) managers, and a number of other positions where having a law degree is attractive. A lot our PMs, RMs, and sales work remotely. We also have short-term contract attorneys (they work for us, but are contracted to work on specific litigation matters for other firms/organizations). So, yes, if you want to be in the legal or legal-adjacent field.

    13. Joielle*

      If you live near your state’s capital city, you might find that a legislative staff position would suit you. TONS of JDs and former lawyers, lots of interaction with the public, different stuff every day… you work long hours at times, but if it’s work you believe in, it feels worth it.

    14. june june hannah*

      +1 to looking at roles where having a JD is attractive. I work at a large firm and we have people in a lot of departments (business development, library/research, litigation services, project management, etc) who are non-practicing JDs and the attorneys really like working with them because of that background and their ability to speak the lingo/quickly understand what the attorney is trying to accomplish. You could also maybe look at being a paralegal?

      1. Amy Sly*

        I tried for paralegal and legal admin kind of positions when I first graduated. No dice. And let me tell you, it’s especially humiliating to be told (through ghosting) that not only are you not qualified to be a lawyer’s peer, but also you’re not even qualified to be their inferior.

        Maybe it could be different now, but after so many years of being out of the field, I feel like even applying to law firms is nothing more than a waste of time and an inconveniencing of electrons. Granted, I could just be listening to my depression, but frankly, my experience has been that for all managers say they want people willing to work hard without a bunch of ego, they’re more horrified than impressed by lawyers working outside the field for low wages or moving halfway across the country in search of something better.

  18. Kramerica Industries*

    Any tips on dealing with an entitled coworker? I think I’ve gotten pretty good at pushing back on comments like “I shouldn’t have to do this because it’s admin…can you do it for me? You’re better at it”. But what really grinds my gears is when Entitled Coworker tries to pull these stunts on lower level coworkers.

    We’re both Senior Llama Wranglers and there are 4 Junior Llama Wranglers. I’ve noticed that he tends to “joke” with them that they’re making him look good for helping him with admin tasks because Manager asked him to do the work. Or comments like “you guys look busy…glad I’m not you”. I’ve already addressed the issue where he essentially offloads his work onto the Junior team with Manager. But is there anything else I can do or say about his attitude? I think it’s gross that he’ll ask them for “help” and degrade their jobs in the same sentence. Many of the Juniors don’t push back – I suspect it’s because they’re early in their careers or feel like they should listen to a Senior. Or is this a MYOB/let it go situation?

    1. 1234*

      I would let it go since you aren’t the manager. Llama Wrangler Manager should be the one to address these issues since they are the manager.

      Someone else treated him this way when he was the junior and now that he’s the senior, he feels “compelled” to treat others how he was treated or he’s just an ass. Either way, his behavior isn’t yours to manage.

    2. Eleanor Konik*

      If your manager isn’t aware, it might be worth bringing it up gently to your manager in private.

    3. MissGirl*

      If you have a good relationship with any of the juniors, you could mention that they don’t have to do those things especially if you see them pressed on their own deadlines.

      1. Anon for this*

        A workplace truism – you cannot expect help/service from someone while simultaneously degrading them. Well, I guess you can, but it definitely shows your true form, and his form is an ass.

    4. ten-four*

      Is there any chance that he’s right to push admin work down to the junior people? He sounds incredibly annoying, but I think it’s worth reflecting on whether he’s appropriately delegating admin work so that he can focus on big projects/making an impact/etc. This is a conversation to have with your manager too, to validate your sense of where your focus should be and what you’d have to delegate to make that possible.

      If it turns out that he’s delegating appropriately, then you should start delegating too so that you can also make sure you have the time to excel! Bonus: you won’t be a jerk about it.

      1. Kramerica Industries*

        Nope. He hasn’t been excelling at the job here so he’s been tasked with admin duties to get a better baseline understanding of what we do.

        He’s kind of stuck in a loop. He’s not going to get more important projects because he can’t master the basics. But he’s not going to do the basics because he thinks he’s above them.

        1. Autumnheart*

          I have two colleagues like this. (Both women, as it happens.) They’re Schroedinger’s Seniors, where they feel that juniors and junior work are “beneath” them, but struggle at performing at a senior level because, surprise surprise, a lot of senior work is in fact the same kind of work that juniors do.

          Both of them are not only horrifically unpopular, they’re also the least productive people on the entire team by about half.

      2. LKW*

        There certainly could be situations like this but there could also be situations where he just doesn’t want to do it. I’ve seen mid-level managers insist that they have someone else make their travel plans while VPs log into the site, arrange their travel and go about their day.

    5. Thankful for AAM*

      In a similar situation at work, I suggested this wording for my junior coworkers.
      entitled coworker: Here is some work for you to do
      junior staff: great, I’ll look it over and talk to manager about my work load.

  19. HR Dolphin*

    On Monday morning first thing, my boss asked me to stick my head in their office but really wanted to have a closed door meeting with me. “So, I’ve been thinking of how I can help you here, helping you succeed. I bought this for you. You know with you showing up late and everything. And, you know, I really don’t want that to be the reason you don’t have a job, so, I got you this…”

    It was an alarm clock. My boss gave me an alarm clock. Because last week I overslept and was late for work. I’ve been here for several years and no, it’s not a pattern. So, that’s how my week started.

    3. Rayray*

      That’s incredibly rude.

      What is it with some people being “the boss” thinking they have to treat people like children?

    5. PMS*

      I really want to know if your boss paid for it from personal or business funds. Either way is terrible…

    6. College Career Counselor*

      Couple of questions: Is this boss new? Are there other concerns about your work?

      I’d ask the boss if she has concerns about your punctuality and if so, is one day out of X # of years cause for concern?

      Because otherwise, the New Yorker cartoon caption meme, “Christ. What an asshole.” would seem to apply here.

    7. CheeryO*

      That’s so obnoxious. My last boss once gave me a bottle of vitamin D because he was concerned that I had a deficiency (I definitely did, but it was still weird!).

    9. Mazzy*

      Wow. On a related note, one of my employees is lacking in communication skills and I wanted to get him a book on business communication, but it felt passive aggressive

    11. pally*

      I’d step right out and pick up a copy of “Management for Dummies”, wrap it up all nice and pretty with the bows and ribbon and all.
      Christmas is coming up, ya know.
      Who says you can’t “gift up” to the manager?

    14. Narvo Flieboppen*

      See, now, I’m a sarcastic fellow and I’d probably have a good laugh over this particular gift. I’m also assuming the manager’s line was intended to be comedic. I’ve also been known to enjoy complete deadpan delivery, so it might why this sits well with me as presented.

  20. ChimericalOne*

    How soon is too soon to CC my boss? My boss suggests that if I reach out to someone on another team & they don’t reply to me within a reasonable period of time (e.g., a few days to a week), the next email should have him CC’d on it. But I know that neither he nor I am very good at social niceties & office politics, so does that seem harsh to anyone else? Should I send at least 1 follow up email without roping him in? It just seems like somewhat of a blunt club for just Email #2.

    (For context, we’re in tech & most of the things I’m reaching out about aren’t emergencies, but I need folks to get back to me at *some* point to resolve these tickets, even if they’re not urgent.)

    1. time for tea*

      I think there’s a difference between cc-ing your boss and cc-ing someone else’s boss. I’d never put someone else’s boss on the CC line; that’d be for my boss or the other person to do. But cc’ing my boss is just an awareness thing and connected to what you already talked about.

      So, yeah, I’d cc him on the next email.

      1. ChimericalOne*

        Ah, that’s a great distinction! Okay, I don’t feel so bad about CC’ing him, then. Thanks!

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I’m sure there was a boss-cc question this week – if you didn’t see it, you might like to look back and have a look at the comments.

      I think it depends on a few factors, but for me copying your boss is a level two escalation, where marking it High Importance is level one and copying their boss is level three. It probably also depends on the general tone of the e-mail, so whether it’s “Hi Fergus, I just wanted to check that the TPS will be ready for [Boss]’s meeting on Thursday” or “Fergus, we are still waiting for the TPS. Kindly update soonest.”

      1. TechWorker*

        This does depend on the culture, tbh it’s totally normal in my org to cc my boss on any important communication, plus people quite often email us both… maybe it’s cos I’m a new manager and only ‘own’ half the project but it doesn’t ‘offend’ me in the slightest

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      My job has a job request system too and unless it’s a top priority item that absolutely must be done, I never CC’d my boss (or theirs). We make notes in the ticket request file so my boss can track our work, or he can answer questions if we’re out.

      How many follow up emails I send depends on how much work I’ve already put in on the request, if any. If they’ve never responded they get 1 follow up; but if I’ve been working with them and then they ghost, I give it a few more follow up attempts. Are you allowed to close tickets due to non-response? My final message is usually to the effect of: “I just wanted to follow up on your XYZ request. Did you still need X help from me on this, or should I go ahead and close the request? Please respond by XXX date and let me know, otherwise I will assume the job is (complete/not needed) and close the ticket. You can resubmit a request at any time.”

    4. LKW*

      My recommendation is to include the time you want the response in the first email and not assume everyone has the same definition of “reasonable time”.

      As in ‘could you please provide this information by end of day, Monday 11 November’ and then on the 12th send the reminder.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Third option–forward your manager a copy of what you sent and ask if this is a high enough priority for department that you should escalate by involving a manager.

  21. Sunday Morning Fever*

    I applied for an internal job posting back in August and was interviewed the following month. After 2 months of silence I assumed they weren’t that interested in me and carried on. But, last week I had a meeting with our HR person (about a project I’m working on) and she told me that I was still in contention and the hiring process can sometimes take awhile. I would normally take this at face value, but the job was posted in July and I’m starting to think they’re just trying to be nice to me because I’m an employee and that I’m not really in the running. What say you good people?

    1. ChimericalOne*

      Large organization with a lot of bureaucracy? Could be the truth. My current job took almost a year to hire me (budget issues held up the process).

      1. Ama*

        We’re not even that large and we’ve had some leadership positions stay vacant for a full year, due to a combination of being hard to find the right candidate and the people who need to do the interviews having extremely busy travel schedules.

        1. Sunday Morning Fever*

          All understandable. This isn’t a senior position though. I’m hoping for a career change, so it’s pretty low-level. It’s a job for semi-recent grad students with maybe a year or two of experience and I work in a city with plenty of those!

        2. ChimericalOne*

          In my case, I was told about the job in July, it was finally posted in October or November, I think I interviewed in December, and then I was hired near the end of March. Entry-level IT position suitable for new grads. You could always try asking if HR has details about the hold up — in my case, I knew it was because of some snafu around whose budget the position would come out of. They might be able to tell you something equally reassuring.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      Face value.
      This happened to me at OldJob and not only was it internal, I was already in the department AND had been doing a large number of the tasks since the other person left.
      It took 3 months to get hired in initially and then over 6 months for the internal promotion.

    3. Moana*

      OMG are you me?! We have have the same exact timeline. Applied in Aug, interviewed in Sept, but I was offered the job the next day. Mostly silence ever since, but word is it’s still happening.

      Good luck! Sounds like they are just taking their sweet time.

  22. Great Beyond*

    I’m in a male dominated department. The guys are really nice, but even the women are bawdy. I’m the youngest and feel out of sorts still, even though I’ve been here for 6 months. Should I be acting more like “one of the guys”? I have never been “one of the guys”. How do you fit in?

      1. Great Beyond*

        It’s “guy humor” type of environment, but the women seem used to it and joke around like the guys.

    2. Third or Nothing!*

      I personally don’t think you should try to become a Cool Girl just to fit in. In my experience it doesn’t work out well.

      As for how you fit in…IDK. I don’t fit in super great around here. I’ve got people I get along with well enough, but I swear if I have to listen to ONE MORE discussion of reality TV or celebrity gossip I might scream.

    3. WKRP*

      I’m sorry, but I couldn’t help notice the turn of phrase here: The guys are really nice, but EVEN the women are bawdy. Does that mean everyone is bawdy? And if so, I would be a little careful of having different expectations for the men and women in your office. If it’s everyone, it sounds like cultural thing and there might not be much you can do to change them (I say this with the assumption that it’s not offensive bawdiness, but rather bad language and the like). But I also don’t think you need to join in with the bawdy to be “one of the guys.” I think the key here is accepting the culture of the office (again, providing it’s not toxic, offensive, or dangerous).

      1. LilySparrow*

        The OP is uncomfortable with the amount of sexualized talk at work. She feels isolated and alienated. Jumping down her throat about phrasing really isn’t helpful.

        There is normally less use of sexualized humor in gender-diverse workplaces. Not because the “ladies” don’t want to hear it, but because there’s cultural awareness that sex jokes are often sexist and heteronormative, plus a lot of people don’t appreciate sex talk at work.

        I think what OP was trying to say is that nobody is overtly a jerk, but its a lot to deal with – and she doesn’t see anyone else who seems uncomfortable with it and might ally with her to push back.

        It is a natural assumption that people in the minority (in this case, women) would be the first place to look for support.

        1. Goldfinch*

          Nah, WKRP has a really valid point. The way OP put it, s/he seems to be assuming that the default is that men are bawdy, and women are not.

        2. WKRP*

          I don’t think I was jumping down anyone’s throat here. Just a caution not to apply different standards based on sex, which wouldn’t help her situation and could even make it worse. Questioning the phrasing of something doesn’t mean I’m criticizing Great Beyond, I’m trying to understand the situation and provide whatever support or information I can. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      2. Great Beyond*

        I’m sorry- English isn’t my first language. I’m just wondering how to fit in better. My social skills are not the best either.

    4. ChimericalOne*

      I think you should just be yourself & not try to be them (it’s wayyy too much energy to try to be someone else!) If they’re good people & you’re kind, they won’t care too much that you’re not like them. But you may get tired of not really fitting in at some point, so be prepared to dust off the resume.

    5. MeMeMe*

      Just be yourself. If you don’t feel like talking the way they talk, or whatever change you would have to make to yourself to be more like them, don’t do it. Forcing yourself to change yourself to conform to a group standard doesn’t lead to happiness, it leads to feeling inauthentic and uncomfortable.

      You don’t even have to think of this as a global policy to follow, but in moment-to-moment interactions. If at this moment, you feel like joining in, go right ahead. If at this moment you don’t, just don’t.

      You might find yourself naturally, authentically, becoming more comfortable acting like “one of the guys” — this is fine. It’s when you feel pressure to force yourself to be someone you’re not, and you do it reluctantly, that leads to unhappiness.

    6. littlelizard*

      I’d say just be yourself – if the culture is non-toxic and just very casual, it should be fine if you’re not joining in on the jokes as actively as everyone else. I’d also try to reframe it away from being a ‘guy humor’ culture when it’s not actually gender-specific in your office.

    7. A ninny mouse*

      Is there any part of their culture you think you can make an effort towards, in an attempt to feel like less of an outsider? A sport they follow, a podcast, a tv series.? Don’t do anything that makes you uncomfortable, but if it’s not a huge imposition on you, it may help you feel like less of the ‘odd one out’

      On the flipside, I think you should feel free to share stuff about yourself. Chances are, someone at the company thinks Nature Walks, Knitting, Fantasy Novels etc are cool.

      I don’t think trying to imitate their senses of humor would go well, so i’d avoid that.

    8. Nesprin*

      You do excellent work, and are professional, and quietly curse the patriarchy.
      -been there done that

    9. Lissajous*

      I work in a male-dominated field, and I almost never “fit in” – I don’t follow any sports, cars, or 99% of the usual topics; instead I play in an orchestra, I play DnD role-playing games, and even the one sport I do play (squash) is one of the rarer ones! I’m not going to change who I am, that’s silly. So I’ll never fit in as such – but I will get along with most people and build good work-friendships, it just takes longer. I started a new job about five months ago, and I’m starting to build the camaraderie,, but it’s still very much a work in progress.

      This is what has worked for me:
      – If there’s something like Friday pub lunches, or occasional post work drinks, go. Especially when you’re new. You don’t have to have an alcoholic drink if that’s not your thing, but just being there for the social non-work time goes a long way. And even if you’re just listening in for the first few times, you’ll get an idea of their lives outside of work.
      – The universal topic: how was your weekend? And listen to the answer, and try and remember so you can follow up next time. Like someone’s mother was sick, how are they going now? What’s the renovation project this weekend? How did the kids go with the camping trip? How’s the cricket team you play on going? Remembering what other people do goes a very long way. You’re not asking because you care about the topic, but because you care about the person.
      – Because I do have such unusual interests and I do mention them, it gives other people an opening to talk about more unusual things as well. Met a tradie who was in his mid 50s and had discovered opera about five years before. Loved it. And was hadn’t been to a live performance yet because he didn’t know what the rules were and what to wear and he wouldn’t fit in. So not only could I reassure him on that front (we’re a little more relaxed here, so clean dark jeans, button up shirt, and clean boots will be at the low end of the dressy scale, but they’ll be fine), it was also an interesting note that “not fitting in” concerns go both ways. Afterwards my manager commented that he’d known that guy for years, and they were decent friends, but he’d never had a clue.
      – I don’t know what your work is, but my role requires a mix of office work, but also checking on fabrication, being on site for construction etc. So for me a thing that helps is I do go down to the workshop and check how the tradies are going and talk with them. Have there been any problems, is there something that’s difficult that we could make easier next time with a design change, how did they do that nifty thing they just did, wow that is one fine-looking weld! On site I will go walking around the plant to check on everyone a couple of times a day, and join in the post work beers a couple of times a week.
      – And if there’s something you don’t know how to do, work or otherwise, ask! Like maybe changing a car battery, or advice how to re-seal wooden trim on the house, or maybe someone’s really into gardening and you have no idea why your mint keeps dying. People like to help, and you’ll probably know stuff you can help with – I know this is stereotypes, but it is frequently true: as the youngest person in the office, very likely computer stuff. (That said, do not discount the value of years of learning excel tricks, there are so many that are legacy from old versions and the shortcut still works but finding it by mouse is impossible.)

      You don’t need to be one of the guys. You don’t need to make bawdy jokes if it’s not your style (it’s certainly not mine, but also most places I’ve worked haven’t tended that way. Crass, for sure, bawdy, not so much), but making some jokes is helpful. Be a good worker, be kind, be a nice person. Be interested in what you’re interested in, and be interested in coworkers as people.

  23. voyager1*

    Good morning AAMs!

    I got a question for you all. I have some issues with my boss that takes a lot of emotional labor/work/compromises on my part to keep a harmonious relationship with her. However things have gotten a little better! Yay right? Well… We got some news that the company is merging with another. There will be lay offs (with good severances). Here is the thing:
    1. I would rather get laid if my manager is still my manager in the combined new company. I don’t want to work for her.
    2. I feel really guilty about this because probably 2500 folks are probably going to lose a job in 2020 over this merger.
    Has anyone else felt this way? My spouse and I are going to fine money wise, so the pressure of keeping a job isn’t there as much like others. I think that is what is really compounding my guilt. I know folks are really going to get hurt and I am kinda secretly hoping I get the pink slip.

    Any thoughts or comments ? Anyone else been through something similar?

    2. cmcinnyc*

      I have been through mergers/lay-offs and I’ve listened/commiserated as friend’s went through them, and while every situation is different here’s a constant: EVERYONE is making their personal calculations and drawing their bottom lines right now. You are not different or weird for thinking through your personal if/then scenarios. Some people will be really hurt by a layoff while other people will be relieved and other people in the middle are trying to job hunt and attempt to find out if they can transfer or otherwise adjust their situation. This is how it goes and it’s uncomfortable for everyone.

    3. Have to be Anon for this one*

      I get it. I’m in the same boat – I’m already job hunting, am very secure financially, and layoffs just came around. I flat out told a coworker (single mom) that if she gets the ax to let me know and I will hand in my two weeks – guarantee she will then retain her job because she is best positioned to take it on.

    4. LilySparrow*

      If people are going to get laid off, better you than someone it would hurt more. Why feel guilty?

      We had a situation once where the company asked for volunteers to take severance because they had to do a staff reduction. They did three rounds of voluntary severance with the offer getting less each time, and wound up having to do layoffs anyway.

      My husband and I had been talking for weeks about whether he should quit, when suddenly the announcement came over email. He called me, and put his name in for the severance package as soon as we hung up the phone. It was a godsend.

      Your feelings about your boss aren’t going to magically cause someone else to get laid off.

  24. Its5oclocksomewhere*

    I’m in a role where I need to talk and get information from vendors and other staff. Most are nice, however there are some that can be rude, snippy, short, etc. Is there any way to not take it so personally? Most days I brush it off, but sometimes it gets to me. Any advice?

    1. voyager1*

      Is this verbal communication or electronic? If verbal I kept a note on my desk that said: they are just voices on the phone.

      This was for a call center style job, and it helped.

    2. LGC*

      I think part of it is…well, acting. One of my friends works with disabled students, and she’s said that she often imagines herself as RPG characters in difficult situations. For me, I’ve pretended that the customer isn’t yelling at me, he’s yelling at the situation.

      It’s also okay to have it get to you sometimes! I think a few people here think that “being professional” means never being visibly hurt by anything that happens at work unless it’s like sexual harassment, and…that’s just not the case. If you’re able to take a break for a little while, do so. Otherwise, do something you enjoy, like a long walk on your break.

      Finally, I’ve found that there’s nothing as empowering as handling a bad situation well. That’s just me, though.

      1. Amy Sly*

        Yeah, I’ve had a few moments in dealing with some company’s stupid policy that had me biting out “I’m not mad at you, I know you can’t do anything, but this is super frustrating!” I hope they don’t take it personally.

        I’ve found there’s nothing as empowering as handling a bad situation well.

        Yep. And sometimes, there can be few things as funny as someone yelling at you and getting annoyed that you’re not yelling back.

        And when all else fails, there’s the concept of “spill words” from Terry Pratchett. That is, the words at the end of the sentence you don’t allow yourself to say. Like “I’m sorry” (that you’re a jerk).

    3. Kathenus*

      Realize that it’s about them, not you. Know that you can’t change their behavior, only how you react to it. And don’t give them any power over your happiness. So just regard it as their problem, take the information they give you to do your job, then forget about them and move on.

    4. Mockingjay*

      I would do a rough script for your requests, bottom line up front (BLUF). Let people know what you want from them at the start. “hi, I’m calling to get a price quote and delivery estimate on your llama grooming toolkit. Would you be able to supply 20 kits and deliver in 30 days?”

      You can add background info as the conversation progresses. “I work for Pet Groomers, Ltd.; here is the delivery address.”

      At the end, recap the conversation: “Great, so you can deliver 20 kits by the 15th of the month, to our local address. The shipment will include the billing invoice. We will provide payment upon receipt/within X days per your policy. Thank you!”

      Follow-up with an email recap as needed.

  25. Lucky cosmic jazz*

    I’m in the process of getting a new job and I don’t know if I’ve messed things up by telling my current boss too early.

    In my job and industry, contacts are the norm and they’re typically renewed annually for staff at my level. I dutifully reapplied for my job and felt confident I’d be rehired since I’m pretty good and we’re always short-staffed.

    While I was waiting to hear back about my application, I was approached by another department for an internal transfer. This team is very well regarded, difficult to get into (they usually promote from within) and had exactly the experience I need to process my career. I informally accepted the offer and I’m waiting to sign the contract next week.

    Now my current grandboss has also offered to renew the contract for my current job. I do like it but the direction of this department is changing so it’s likely to have fewer opportunities for career growth for me. So I blurted out the news about the internal transfer and that I’m thinking of accepting. I made it sound less certain than it actually is because the contract isn’t signed so Grandboss thinks I’m just considering options.

    Now she’s trying to get me to stay, including arranging secondment to a different area to get me more experience. I’m not keen on this at all because the boss in that area is notoriously bad manager.

    I feel bad that she’s going to ask this effort when I know I’m going to take the transfer. But I also don’t want to formally resign because the transfer isn’t official yet.

    Am I being unprofessional? How do I handle this situation?

    1. ChimericalOne*

      Would you have to resign on the spot if you told her that you wanted this other contract? If so, I would just tolerate whatever she’s sending your way. If not, I think you probably want to go back and be more direct with her: “I really appreciate that you want me to stay, and that you’re looking at ways to help me get more experience in my current role. However, after thinking it over, I feel more confident in saying that I’m committed to taking this transfer if it is offered to me. I really enjoy the work I do here, but this team would just be perfect for me. It’s exactly what I’m looking for for my career.”

      You’re not being unprofessional to look out for your own interests.

  26. DC*

    I quit yesterday!

    It went better than expected- but I did also have his boss on the phone at the same time.

    Now I can devote time to job hunting and figuring out what I want to do next.

    So if anyone in the DC area is hiring for communications roles, hit me up!

  27. But I'm not...*

    I’m a legal assistant. Not for the first time, one of the attorneys I support asked me to ‘play dumb’ yesterday while scheduling a mediation among several parties. We hadn’t gotten agreement from all the parties and he wanted me to act like I didn’t know the circumstances so that we could draw out the timing of confirmation and not miss the slot.

    I’m a woman in my 30’s, he’s a man and slightly older than I am. It felt icky being asked to play dumb when I’ve got a decade of career experience and I understand that my role is to know what’s going on before I approach a mediation firm for scheduling. The legal community in my region is small and I feel that this kind of thing reflects badly on me.

    I pushed back a bit, telling him I prefer not to do that and that really, we should have agreement among parties before requesting a mediation date. It’s just best practice, nothing new. I tried to strike a balance between ‘playing dumb’ and just appealing to the admin staff for a little extra time to get agreement. It turned out fine but I’m so bothered by being asked to play dumb by my colleague.

    What else could I have done? Or if/when it happens again?

    1. Case of the Mondays*

      I ask my assistant to “play dumb” all the time and I do it too, just not in an unethical way. The way you described sounds like it was pushing that ethical boundary. I have clients that want to talk for an hour every time I call. Sometimes I need a quick answer from them and due to my litigation schedule, can’t give them an hour that day. The easiest way to deal with this is to have my assistant make the call and if the client starts asking other questions she can “play dumb” and say that it’s really a question the attorney has to answer and the attorney isn’t available right now. I think “play dumb” is just a turn of phrase and doesn’t mean you should actually act dumb. It’s just a way of saying you don’t have all of the information.

      1. But I'm not...*

        I do what you describe often– I consider that part of the job, basically traffic control. It’s totally fair to say to a client, “Al is busy right now, may I relay your questions to him?” There’s nothing dishonest about that.

        In this case, it’s gumming up the process of a business, and one that we expect to use over and over again. It’s totally fair for them to only confirm spots when everyone has agreed on a date– otherwise what’s to stop us from cancelling a week before when they could have booked with any number of other groups? I want to maintain a good relationship with that admin, and booking spots without consent from the other party is a bad look. Acting like I don’t know what’s going on make me look stupid and incompetent.

        That said, I do think the phrase bothers me from the jump, because assistants are often undervalued and people forget what they bring to the table.

        1. Ama*

          My boss calls these kind of things “street theater” — i.e. when we’re having difficulty getting a response from an external person, we’ll sometimes stage an email exchange where it sounds like we’re both unclear on certain details and loop in the external person, even though we’re both aware that the hold up is the external person just refusing to engage. For some reason this works about 9 times out of 10 where direct reminders to the person that we need a response fail.

      2. Mazzy*

        Yeah. This boss should just withhold the information he doesn’t want people to know instead of telling everything and then relying on peoples’ acting skills

    2. Another JD*

      Tell the mediator that you’ll call opposing counsel to confirm the date/time after you’ve booked in and let them know if something changes. Ask for when they need cancellation by, then honor that.

  28. PMS*

    Just a designer vent.

    I need folks to follow our companies brand guidelines! They are easy to understand and folks can come to my office and have us do the work for them (in fact, this is what we prefer!) if they don’t know how to implement the standards. But if you do something on your own, you can’t just pick and choose what you like from our guidelines and make up the rest!

    I don’t care if you don’t like our color palette or fonts, you have to use them. Do you think folks at Coke get to use a different red on some materials just because they don’t like the official one? No! They just have to use the damn red and get on with their lives.

    1. 1234*

      Is what you’ve just posted also written in the brand guidelines? From personal experience, people who aren’t design-focused don’t notice these things. I’m not a designer but it’s also a pet peeve of mine.

      Without calling anyone out, are the most common errors also listed in the brand guidelines under “what not to do/not on brand?”

      1. PMS*

        Common errors and missuses are listed as “Don’t do this!” but…the guidelines do not specifically state that you can’t just make shit up if you don’t like it. I will ask my boss about adding text to that effect (in a much more professional way) to our guidelines and to the branding presentations I give, good idea!

        1. TimeTravlR*

          OUr branding guide gives the logos you can use and the Pantone color palette so there is no misunderstanding. We also spell out size depending on the way it’s used. You have to be really specific with some people. And for those of us (like me) who are not design experts, I appreciate the specificity.

          1. PMS*

            Yup, ours is exactly like that. I’ve worked with really complicated brand manuals before and I’ve made sure ours is written for non-designers.

            The issue is people feel it’s ok to change the stuff they don’t like. You don’t get to do that. The rules are there for a reason. I don’t care if you hate our brand colors, you have to use them.

            1. Jules the 3rd*

              Ditto, though my employer does have a few variations on the official logo that are allowed (a rainbow one is what I remember most…)

            2. DC*

              Oh goodness, this is my soon-to-be-ex boss. They just changed a major university logo, fonts, etc…. when they got in trouble for it they just shrugged and kept using it all.

              I came on board after and it has been grinding my gears forever.

              1. PMS*

                I feel your pain so much. We are rebranding and the I’m anticipating the next year and a half being hell.

                1. Bad font, no cookie*

                  One mistake my company made was to leave extended characters out of their new required font. But we sell in non-English regions so not having those characters means EU employees go back to Arial or whatever. And the engineers are doing that too because they are missing both characters for micro-Ohms.

    2. Ama*

      One thing you might check is that it is easy for people to access the tools they need to follow the guidelines . For example, at my work we use a font that is not standard on most computers, and when they initially put in our guidelines, it didn’t occur to them that they needed to tell people that they needed to install the font on each person’s computer who was working on branded material — so people would download our stationary or power point templates, but not realize that the fonts were being switched back to their computer’s default. Same goes for color swatches — if you use Adobe you can actually save swatches as a preset palate that anyone can download into their own program.

      Now if it is just a matter of people’s personal preferences, that’s a different problem, and maybe needs a staff meeting on why branding consistency is important. (We have one of these about every couple of years.)

      1. cmcinnyc*

        This.
        Issues at my company include:
        It can be a bear to download a logo. It should be very easy.
        I can’t get one of the fonts to display. It’s there when I print but not on my screen.
        And one of the templates has a glitch that makes the user sign in over and over and over again before it opens.

        Your This-Is-The-Red-We-Use-At-Coca-Cola example is great. Just make sure everyone has access to that red.

        1. PMS*

          Yup, we have alternate fonts that are available on every computer (worked with IT on this). Logos are available online in a wide variety of file formats along with explanations on what format to use when. Color palette lists colors in PMS, cmyk, rgb and hex code. No one has to login to access any of this.

      2. Not a cat*

        Yep.Yep.Yep.

        I’m in marketing and I didn’t have the very specific font for our brand on my LT, so every time I needed a change, I’d have to ask a designer to do it.

        I requested it about 20 times in 2 years…but no….

    3. NW Mossy*

      While not directly on point to your question, I have a positive design story for you! Recently, my team brought up a communication template that they use and asked about trying to make it better, because it’s a hassle to update each time we need to send one to a client. Y’all, what I know about design would fit in a thimble, but this thing was awful – outdated logo, wrong fonts, crazy margins, the works. So I looped in our service team (who actually sends it to clients) to get the right people on the case to fix it.

      Last week we got a draft of the refreshed version back from our communications team, and it is GLORIOUS. It is coherent, professional, on brand, and a soothing balm to the eye. What designers do is a gift. I don’t happen to have it myself, but I can certainly appreciate a good one when I see it.

      1. PMS*

        This actually makes me really happy! I love it when people reach out to for this kind of thing.

        There is def. a DIY culture at my job. Plus design is “fun!” And so it’s really hard to get folks to turn their materials over to us and we don’t have a directive from leadership enforcing any of this (and we’re a big enough company that it’s crazy and unprofessional that any of this is allowed.)

    4. Donkey Hotey*

      I feel your pain, friend.

      Earlier this year, I sent an email to the head of marketing at my company saying, in essence, “You want us to use (this particular shade of blue) but the RGB, CMYK, Hex and Pantone values you give generate four different colors. Which one should we use?”

      1. only acting normal*

        This is what our brand guide colours are like too.
        On the plus side we’re provided with corporate templates for documents, letters, posters, PowerPoint slides etc, all of which are pre-set with the brand colour palette and fonts.
        But… people will *still* override the (reasonably nice, well thought out) colours, fonts, layouts etc until they end up with something eye-bleedingly bad. And then they’ll blame the template.

        As with most things it boils down to people being people (stubborn/ wilfully stupid/ annoying/ oblivious/ silly/ over-confident/ etc), no matter how much you try to make it easy for them.

  29. Llama Wrangler*

    Curious if anyone else read this week’s Hola Papi — “should I fake my astrological sign to be more employable?” (link in reply). I felt like he did a pretty good job answering it given how many turns the letter took (being really about a deeply toxic workplace and not astrology at all), but it seems like his suggestion that it’s fine to lie about your sign would get complicated quickly if your employer has your actual birthdate on file.

    2. time for tea*

      Admittedly I have not read that column so I don’t know who was the person asking for the astrological sign. I agree that it would be pretty hard from keeping HR-in-general from knowing your birthdate. However, I could see your boss and your coworkers being successfully kept in the dark. My org doesn’t celebrate birthdays or anything like that. The only time the birthdate came up is when I had to give them my ID when I onboarded.

      Also the signs have shifted a little bit, by like a day or two: I’m apparently not in the same sign as I thought I was. So there’s also room to be Confused About Astrology.

      1. LGC*

        It shifts year to year – if you’re on a cusp (usually the 20th to 22nd), then it’s a bit ambiguous.

        As for hiding the birthday: It depends on the size of the org, though! Like, I don’t know my employee’s birthdays. I think I might be able to look them up through our payroll system, but I’m not sure. It sounds like a small business (she’s at a co-op), so they might be able to have more ready access to that info.

    3. Jan Levinson*

      I know it’s not really the question, but I’m stunned that there are employers who would take astological signs into consideration for hiring purposes. Birthdates do not determine personality traits.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Oh, yes, that is horrifying on its own. In the case of the letter, it’s clear that the people who are running this company are very bad managers and taking astrological signs into consideration is a sign of a very toxic culture.
        And I think Alison would say if they use that to influence their hiring purposes, probably it’s a sign they’re not going a great job hiring anyway.

    4. LGC*

      …oh my Dog. This letter didn’t so much escalate quickly as it blasted off into interstellar travel.

      I actually think it’s not terrible to lie about your sun sign, if only because that’s a pretty low-stakes thing to lie about. (Like, me being a Taurus is probably #5,289,671 on the list of reasons why you think I’m being a bit stubborn.) And I think that’s what he’s really saying – a place that asks that is bananapants enough that they don’t deserve an honest response. Like, if they’re going to fire you or revoke the offer for saying you’re a Libra when you’re really a Leo, then that’s a blessing.

      I’d probably be honest because Taureans are set in their ways their response will be telling. If they think I won’t fit in (or will fit in) because I was born mid-spring instead of – you know – asking me and others about myself, then they have major issues. And, I mean, I enjoy reading horoscopes, but it’s also meaningless IRL! (Case in point: I co-lead a team with a Scorpio (and her birthday is exactly six months from mine, to boot). We’re one of the best teams in the company.)

      Also, I’m even more concerned about the gyno, which I did not think was possible, but it happened. I know this is the work thread, but LL was way too casual about the fact that 1) her gyno prescribed her benzos because 2) she’s unmarried with children and 3) she’s okay with this because she needs the Klonopin to deal with her coworkers.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I have been known to answer that I prefer Chinese astrology because kids react to the generation before them….I’m year of the horse, what about you? It’s usually ended the conversation for the day, and once was enough that someone stopped sharing “interesting horoscopes” with me permanently.

  30. Depressed and anon*

    I’ve been treated for depression/anxiety for years now, and due to my main med not working well anymore/causing disruptive side effects, I’ve just switched to a new one (from generic lexapro to generic zoloft). I don’t know my manager very well, she took over my department when my previous manager left a few months ago. I’ve only met her once in person a couple of years ago. I am not sure if I should tell her that I’m beginning a new med just in case it causes problems and I need to go in to the doctor’s office or take time or whatever. She’s super hands-off which is generally fine, but that combined with my not having a great feel for how she thinks about things is making me question if I should give her a heads up now or just wait and see. I really don’t think she’d react badly even if I told her what it was, but if I do mention it I will be very general (“trying a new medication and not sure how it will affect me yet” etc). What do you all think?

    1. PolarVortex*

      Been here, I wouldn’t feel afraid to keep it super casual with your manager as far as knowledge:

      “I’ve been having some new issues with an ongoing medical problem, and I’m working with my doctor on finding the right medication to treat it. This may mean a few extra doctors visits, but I just wanted you to know.”

      You could add in that you hope once this is resolved, it will clear up some of the distractions that you’re sure have been seen affecting you at work, but always optional.

      I’ve never had an issue talking to my managers with the above thing. As long as you don’t mind them fussing, I usually just explain it’s a genetic thing and nothing serious to worry about.

      2. Blueberry Girl*

        This is basically the same language I used when I switched meds at work several times looking for one that worked. So, I would recommend it.

        Keep it vague and be okay with a little, “Oh, is everything okay? Do you need anything?” concerns, but if your manager is reasonable than she shouldn’t ask more and will understand your privacy.

    2. also depressed and anon*

      I’ve been in basically the same situation (switching brain meds), except I didn’t expect it to be an issue at all but I had horrible side effects that had me at home for 2 days. I called out sick, had to bring in a doctor’s note (so now my workplace knows I go to a psychiatrist)…which isn’t ideal, but it worked out fine. If your workplace has reasonable sick leave and you can just take it when you need it, I’d advise not going into specifics (even ‘new medication’ level specifics) and just say you’re not feeling well.

      1. Depressed and anon*

        Oh noooo I’m so sorry you had to deal with that, some of them do have some pretty unpleasant side effects :( I think it’s silly you you had to get a note for two days out!! Someone could be out with the flu or a migraine for that long. We have one bucket of PTO and I have a lot left for this point in the year…honestly I’m leaning towards your approach and just see what happens.

        1. also depressed and anon*

          Yeah, we have a policy where 1 day is fine but 2 days or more requires a note. I’m actually like 80% sure that I’m the reason we added that policy (it was new when this happened).

    3. Amy Sly*

      Kinda tangential, but out of curiosity, what problems were you having with the escitalopram? I’ve been on it for probably five years now, and I’ve started noticing a recurral of some of my depression symptoms. (Granted, I’ve also been adding stressors to my life, which may be the problem instead of the meds.) Was there something about the generic Zoloft that makes it better?

      1. Depressed and anon*

        It affects my short-term memory so I have a really hard time remembering things sometimes. It’s been getting worse, to the point where I have made a few mistakes the last couple of weeks that luckily didn’t cause big problems, but they caused rework for coworkers and being so close together was a little scary. I originally just wanted to go back to the name brand Lexapro because I had these same problems with I first switched the generic, but my insurance company decided they wouldn’t cover it unless I’d tried three generics first, even though I had an authorization from my provider *insert eyeroll here* My provider thought Zoloft was a good one to try next, and from what I have seen in doing some research is that it tends to have less side effects than some other SSRIs. She said it’s similar enough to escitalopram that I didn’t even need to do the tapering down/tapering up stuff you’d normally expect. It’s also used for more kinds of anxiety than escitalopram, which I am glad of because I suspect some social anxiety is going on along with the GAD.

        I was on it for about 15 years and a lot of times these kind of drugs just stop being effective after a while. It helped a lot for years and years, but over the last several months it hasn’t helped as much and the memory issues have been getting worse. You might be experiencing that as well, as you’ve been on it a while. It’s also worth noting that while escitalopram is sometimes used for depression, it’s mostly an anti-anxiety med and you might just need an antidepressant added on (I also take a low dose of bupropion along with it). If you’re only taking escitalopram, it might be worth asking about adding something else (unless you feel like it’s not helping at all, then just switching might be an option).

  31. pitney bowes*

    *Trigger warning for some topics that may be uncomfortable for some*

    Not really seeking any advice, just venting and seeing if anyone can commiserate. My current boss (“Lisa”) has been here for 4 months. She replaced our former boss, who retired. Lisa seems to think everyone she manages is her therapist. She tells us every detail of her personal life and overshares to point where it is uncomfortable. Her poor assistant (“Eric”) bears the worst of it but she does it with everyone in this department. Unfortunately since she is the director of this department (HR) there is no one we can really go to since she reports directly to the Vice-President, who works out of a different location and is very hands off and believes in the hierarchy immensely. I am job hunting because I can’t stand it anymore and so are my co-workers. Eric is thinking of quitting without another job lined up because he is so fed up. She calls us into her office just to talk about things like her parent’s divorce, how her fiance left her because she had an affair, how she was almost the victim of a teacher when she was kid who was caught being inappropriate with other students, or how she thinks she may have a problem with alcohol. No one wants to hear it or is equipped to deal with it. She has no sense of boundaries and won’t listen when we try to ignore her or say we need to get back to work or don’t want to hear it or whatever.

    1. Mazzy*

      No trigger warning needed. Maybe I’ve just always been this way, but can’t you just say “you shouldn’t be talking about your parents’ divorce with us. We don’t know what to say or how to respond and we have work.”?

    2. Wishing You Well*

      If Eric is thinking of quitting without another job in hand, he’s in the best position to push back with Lisa and/or tell the VP Lisa is impossible to work for. You can both contact the VP, but if you need another job lined up first, I understand your hesitancy. How did Lisa ever get this far in management?
      Sorry you’re going through this.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      “That sounds tough. It seems like you really need to talk to someone about this. Unfortunately, I’m not really qualified to do that sort of listening, and I have my own work to finish. I suggest finding a certified counselor through the company insurance — it really helped me in the past when I had some stressful issues to deal with. Good luck!”

    4. LDP*

      No advice, but I can commiserate! My former boss used to call me into her office to help her caption Instagram posts, to talk about cute guys she met while on vacation, to ask me if I’d ever thought about what my funeral would be like, to play “would you rather” games and make me choose between two coworkers who I’d rather make out with…
      Everyone reported to her went to HR after repeated attempts to bring the issue up to her supervisor went no where, and finally they let her go. Hopefully you can get away from her soon!

  32. Ted Mosby*

    Any tips for working with depression? I graduated with my master’s a year ago (went straight to grad school from undergrad), and have been working since, but I’m currently at my fifth firm in a year after the last four didn’t end up sticking (to be fair- one was an internship, one was a temp job, and one was just awful. The one I had for the longest I loved, but all four were supposed to have the opportunity for me to stay on full time). All except the internship and temp job were supposed to be contract-to-hire.

    I’ve come to the realization that the reasonings given by all the firms for not bringing me on full-time had to do with seeming like I wasn’t happy to be there, motivation to get work done, and little attention to detail. These weren’t criticisms I had ever received in my life, so my mom (who’s a doctor) suggested a trip to a therapist. I was quickly diagnosed with depression, and the medications I’m on have been helping a lot.

    What I’m asking is how to get through the day when the medications aren’t doing their jobs. I cannot lose a fifth job in a year because I didn’t seem motivated. I AM motivated- my brain just doesn’t want me to leave my apartment sometimes. I know part of it is that the transition from school to the working world has been particularly hard on me for some reason, but I need SOMETHING to give my brain a kick in the butt some days.

    1. MousePrincess*

      You sound exactly like me! I am a super high achiever, but I am motivated mostly by failure, not a drive to succeed. When the depression hit me, I was motivated by nothing and also felt like a failure – a bad combination. Once I got into therapy and on medication, I started doing much better at my job and even had the courage to apply to (and get) a new, better job! I say this just to let you know that there’s hope if you stick with a program that works for you!

      In the meantime, on my worst days, I called in sick to give myself time to recharge and “get my sh*t” together – maybe once every other month that was necessary. I also felt that something that helped get out of the depression hole was feeling accomplished, so I started keeping very detailed task lists in OneNote and checking off every little thing I did (even if it was just email so-and-so). Looking at your list and saying “wow, look at everything I was able to do today” can really help keep the failure thoughts at bay.

      Good luck – there’s hope and you are not alone.

    2. A few things are nice*

      Captain Awkward has an excellent post on this! I’d pull up a link for you, but I’m typing on my phone right now. Google “captain awkward depression” and it should come up.

    3. Rachel*

      Flip the script. Anxiety is a really bad motivator to do something, so instead of telling yourself, “If I don’t go to work I’ll be fired,” tell yourself, “If I get to work I’ll be able to do xyz, which I really like” or “I’ll get paid and can buy stuff.”

      If you don’t already have a therapist, please find one. They’re a lot more qualified to give you tools and scripts to get through the day.

    4. EH*

      Oh man, I’m sorry you’re dealing with this! It can be so frustrating to still have phases of depression even after getting on meds. I have depression and anxiety, so I feel you.

      When I’m struggling with depression, I lean heavily on my unofficial motto: you don’t have to want to do it, you just have to do it.

      I keep lists and records of what I’m working on and where each project is, and on my off days I use that to make a list of the next action for my top handful of projects (I go by due date and priority). Then I use the Pomodoro method to get through as much as I can. I do let myself take pretty long breaks, go for walks, etc. (I use the app Clockwork Tomato for this – 20 minutes of work, 10 minutes of break, repeat.)

      I also try to do a lot on days when I feel good – this helps pull up my averages so I’m still productive overall even though I have a few days a month when I’m semi-useless.

      Depression can be kind of like the weather, you know? Some days are just dark and stormy/rainy. I take the actions I can to get through, and wait for it to pass.

      1. Amy Sly*

        This. Couple of other things to look at:

        Make sure you’re getting sleep, nutrition, and exercise. The healthier your body, the easier it is on your mind.
        Make sure your getting in self-grooming and environment cleaning. It’s hard for anyone who hasn’t had depression to get both how hard it can be to drag yourself into the shower and how much better you can feel about life once you’ve done it. Same with having a vacuumed floor.
        Keep track of your bad days and note anything that might be triggering. Myself, I know that once a month or so I’m going to have at least one bad day when I find out I’m still not pregnant. If you can find a pattern, you can preemptively take vacation to avoid seeming to be checked out at work.

    5. Depressed and anon*

      I am by no means anyone who should be giving career advice, but one thing that strikes me here is the “seeming” and I wonder if you were not communicating enough/well with your managers? I’m pretty sure I have social anxiety so it I get it if it’s a desire/inclination to keep to yourself (or just being introverted) but that can look a lot like not engaged or unmotivated. Can you try to touch base or check in now and then, just something like “Hi boss, I should have that report done this afternoon!” or “The new project is going pretty well, how’s your afternoon?” so you seem more engaged, even if you’re not feeling “on” that day?

      1. Ted Mosby*

        You’ve kind of hit the nail on the head with that one- I’m also pretty introverted and like my quiet and alone time! And then the depression just amplifies that- instead of coming in, saying hi, asking if there’s anything to do and getting to it, I would walk in and sit at my computer for an hour, trying to will myself to talk to my supervisor or drum up the energy to continue what I was doing the day before. It’s something I’ve been actively working on, but dear lord does it get hard when I just want to hide from the world that day.

        1. Depressed and anon*

          I am so with you…I am the same way. I know it’s hard but keep working on it, I do think it will help how you’re perceived *introvert solidarity fistbump*

    6. ..Kat..*

      Antidepressants can take eight weeks or longer to work. And, you might need the dosage adjusted more than once before the medications are therapeutic for you.

      Hope this helps. Wishing you the best.

  33. anonnnymmmous*

    My role changed a couple months ago, and a new bonus structure was supposed to be created and laid out for me since I have different deliverables now. That hasn’t happened, and in the meantime I’ve realized that the new responsibilities are a Lot. A) How do I bring this up again when I have a few times and was basically told “things are busy, soon” several times, and B) Is there room to ask for more than just the new bonus information? I’m very aware it hasn’t been very long, but I was moved into these responsibilities despite wanting to move in a fairly different direction, there’s a lot of them both in terms of different tasks that need to be done and how many projects the tasks need to be done for, and I have generally received positive feedback on how the new tasks are going.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Warning: I’ve never negotiated or been in a job where a bonus is a thing. You also need to weigh what you know about the culture of your organization.

      On the bonus, I think you could *maybe* ask one more time, specifically requesting a timeline. Like, a month. Ultimately, you’re looking for them to say “This will be figured out by January 2020.” That being said, it’s quite likely that even with a hard date, they will just blow it off. My understanding is that bonuses can be very nebulous and change on a whim, so you may not want to expect them.

      The bonus conversation should be separate from your other question(s) about the role, but be very clear with yourself on what outcome you’re looking for. A timeline for how long you’ll be doing NewRole? Discussion about when/how you can move in the direction you want to go? Something else?

  34. Stressed at new job*

    I keep making mistakes at my new job because of tight deadlines and I don’t know what to do.

    I have been in my new job 2 months and I keep making mistakes because people ask for task to be completed with unrealistic deadlines. For example, yesterday I was asked to edit a 20 slide power point that aI didn’t make with new data, including complex formulas in less than an hour for a meeting with the CEO. I had to drop everything I was doing and scramble to get something done. Some numbers were wrong because I don’t get to QA anything and I didn’t even get to to update all the slides. It stresses me out because I feel like I’m being set up for failure.

    1. Bearimy of the Month*

      Do you ever debrief afterwards with the person who gave you these assignments? Sometimes they know what they’re asking for is unrealistic and are OK with whatever you can get done. Other times they might not understand the scope of what they were asking and how it was impossible to complete. I would start with a conversation and see where it gets you.

      1. consultinerd*

        Understanding expectations is key here. If they drop something in your lap last-minute, it might be a “do what you can and we’ll work with what we’ve got” situation, a “if you can finish it, great, if not, let me know and we’ll punt on this” situation, or a “we actually expect you to be able to deliver accurate products on this tight a timescale” situation. Distinguishing between the first two is important, since sometimes old numbers or no numbers are better than half-assed new numbers, and sometimes it’s more like “we need to show progress regardless of whether it’s perfect.”

        If they do expect good, completed work in these situations, though, you should talk to the boss about it feeling impossible under the circumstances. You might learn that you need to be more proactive about getting your materials reviewed early so you have adequate lead time to make revisions. You might need to get more familiar with common tools/methods (like the Excel formulas) that your team uses so you can feel more comfortable making changes efficiently, in which case some formal or informal training could make a big difference.

        If you have good relationships with more experienced coworkers, talk to them too. You might learn that certain people have a habit of asking for things with unrealistic deadlines, and the best ways to deal with those requests.

    2. Kathenus*

      Engage your boss in the solution. Tell them just what you said here, offer suggested solutions if you have any, and ask for advice on how to best handle this. If they know that you are making mistakes because of unrealistic deadlines as soon as possible, versus thinking/assuming you are making them due to lack of skills or attention, it can both help keep them from having a negative impression of you and help you find tools to improve the situation. Good luck.

  35. Bearimy of the Month*

    I recently got a promotion, and as part of it I’m overseeing the replacement in my old position. This new staff member transferred from another department because her job was being eliminated, and…it’s not going great. But it’s not a total failure, either. I technically have the ability to fire her if I want, but her work is just on the right side of acceptable and so I don’t know what to do other than let her spin her wheels until she makes a mistake that I can justify letting her go over. But that also seems really unethical. I don’t have the bandwidth to coach her in the way she needs (she can do the work from a technical standpoint, but her time management and people skills are lacking, and of course that’s a lot harder to coach). Is there a better way forward here?

    1. time for tea*

      Can someone else coach her? You don’t have time, but it’s not her technical work that needs help. Time management and people skills can be coached by others. Does your company have training opportunities she can take?

      1. Bearimy of the Month*

        We’re a pretty flat organization, so there’s not a lot of management (and they’re all similarly stretched thin). This is compounded by the fact that this employee isn’t new to the working world and a) shouldn’t need coaching on these things at this point in her career, and b) would probably be offended by efforts to coach her. It’s not a great situation and I didn’t have a lot of leeway in taking her on (and was reluctant to let her go quickly for the same office politics).

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Can you outsource the coaching in another way? ie, tell her in a 1 – 1 that time management is a problem, ask how she wants to fix it, and be prepared to offer a time management class?

          Though honestly, your post and response really seem like you’re just looking for an ethical path to firing her. Not sure how to put it, hope you understand, but, it’s like you’re trying to stay on the fence: not committing to the work of keeping her on but also not committing to the political struggle of managing her out. This will leave you with the worst of both worlds. You’ll be better off if you pick one or the other.

          I hate politics so I’d be working on giving her opportunities to improve, but ymmv.

          1. Employee of the Bearimy*

            (Changed my username because I just realized I screwed up the reference…*sigh*)

            Yes, in an ideal world I would probably already have let her go, and so I don’t think it’s worth my time investing much more work in coaching her. But for a few reasons it will probably reflect badly on me if I let her go without a clear reason, and I’m not willing to spend the political capital on making the case right now. So yes on the fence-sitting, which also feels gross and has its downsides. I suppose ultimately I have to do some more thinking about this.

            1. Jules the 3rd*

              The hardest thing in the world is figuring out what you want – and in that I include the cost assessment and how much you’re willing to pay for each possible outcome.

              I will also say that if strangers on the Internet see this fence-sitting, your employees all see it too, and are going to be assessing your decisions and actions, and whether your decision might be applied to them too. If you let her go, the case needs to be clear to anyone, but if you don’t, you need to find some way to help her improve.

      2. Ama*

        I had a direct report with some time management issues and although we talked about it a little bit, I ended up asking her to choose a time management course from the professional development options our HR provides, and it actually did help her a lot.

        I am always dubious about HR courses because my personal experience with them hasn’t been great– but she is new to the 9 to 5 world and I think the course she chose was perfectly geared to someone at her level.

    2. Kathenus*

      If there’s not someone else available to coach like time for tea suggestions, can you break down the time management and/or people skills into smaller actionable steps and have her focus on one on a time to build skills and improve in that area? Since both time management and people skills can be hard for people to wrap their heads around how to solve, picking out very specific aspects of them to focus on might help her begin improving and hopefully even learning how to keep progressing in other areas with less coaching over time. For example in time management, maybe she’s asked to create a project list with deadlines and prioritization for you to review weekly or whatever, to help her learn how to plan her time more effectively.

    3. AnonyNurse*

      Since it used to be your job, are you holding her to a standard of you at the end of your time in that role vs you at the beginning? Perhaps what seem to be time management problems are more learning to do the tasks properly — needing to double check things, not having figured out efficiencies that you developed over your tenure in that role, etc.

      Considering just waiting for her to mess up badly enough so that you can fire her seems to be really poor management — that’s not good for your company, let alone your employees. Perhaps identifying a mentor for yourself in people management would be valuable.

      1. Bearimy of the Month*

        No, I’m aware that she needs to be “coached up” to where I was when I got promoted, but I’ve given her a workload that’s comparable to what I was handling when I came in and she’s just barely making it.

        I’m aware that it’s not a good plan to just wait for her to mess up and fire her – that’s why I wrote this post. I actually have a lot of experience in people management; what I don’t have is time to invest in someone who might not ever live up to the standard we need (see above re: her previous work experience).

    4. Mazzy*

      It’s not unethical to “let” someone make a mistake. If she makes ones because you can’t watch her work 24/7 that’s not on you

    5. blaise zamboni*

      If I understand correctly, she is your direct report now, right? If that’s the case…yeah, it’s your job to manage her, which includes giving her concrete opportunities to improve before she is let go.

      I hear you on how frustrating it must be to take on a report that you didn’t really get to vet or select yourself. But if you’re a manager, you need to manage fairly, and allowing an employee to languish without feedback until they’re sufficiently bad at their job isn’t good management. (And I’ve seen that go wrong, where the employee languishes without feedback until they’re very bad at their job, and then suddenly it’s a really inconvenient time to replace them–so on they go, wreaking havoc and driving good employees out.)

      If you’re stretched too thin to manage your report, you need to bring that up with your own boss. It’s not okay to assume that your employee “shouldn’t need coaching” or that she “probably” won’t react well to your feedback. You’re her boss. If she doesn’t react well to coaching, that’s something you can document as evidence that she’s not a fit for your team. That may cause some political waves, but letting her go with documented attempts to help her looks waaayyyy better than refusing to engage and letting her go because she had no guidance in her new role.

  36. thebirdlady*

    Is it normal for your boss to just… not have any idea what you’re working on, not be able to remember what she’s already assigned to you, etc.?

    My boss asked me THREE TIMES last week to put together some content for a new page for our website. After the first request, I wrote up a draft and sent it to her to review… and she DID review it… and then TWICE MORE, sent me the same statistics that she’d already sent me once and asked me to write up some website content with them.

    Today she asked me to start promoting a certain thing we do on our social media, sending me a link to a Facebook post of ours from last December as an example. Uh… yes, I’ve already been promoting this on our social media channels on a weekly basis, ever since you first told me to start doing so, LAST YEAR, which is why that post from December exists??? There’s an almost identical post from this week!

    She’s just super scattered, and I’m super Type A, and it’s driving me bonkers. Help.

    1. NoName*

      Is there any way you can set up a shared progress/status document workspace with her? Like some sort of mindmapping or similar workspace so she can see what’s been done. what’s in progress, etc? If she’s too scattered, you could update it noting what she’s done as well.

      1. PolarVortex*

        This. Any kind of shared documentation can be a life changer – or email documentation.

        Then just kindly remind her that it’s on the document, or yes you did that last week and sent her an email when it was done! As long as it’s done nicely, eventually she’ll develop the kneejerk habit to check that documentation/her email before chatting you.

    2. Donkey Hotey*

      Ayup. My first annual review with (current boss) involved the phrase, “I’m not 100% sure what you’re working on right now, but everyone says you’re doing a great job.”

    3. Seifer*

      Ohhhhhh that happened to me once. But only once. Because after I completed the request and emailed back, and then he asked me to do the thing again (with the oh so loved, “please advise on the below”), I dragged my original email back into the reply all since he replied all to try and call me out. Then I just wrote, “Hey Boss, looks like we got our wires crossed! Please see attached from [10 days ago]. Thanks!”

      Internally I was like. Are you effing serious. But it’s never happened again.

    4. LilySparrow*

      Yes, my best client is like this. She’s actually great at her job, but not at my job – which is why she needs me and appreciates me.

      She’ll send me the same stuff 3 or 4 times, or more. Sometimes she’ll say, “Did I already give you this?” Sometimes not.

      I just reply with, “yep, got it!” or the scheduled due date, or whatever. It’s just reassurance.

      I like my work, and she thinks I’m some kind of magical wizard. If she were good at this stuff, I would be out of a job.

  37. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

    What do I do if I hear that faculty members are refusing to have closed-door meetings with female undergraduates, in the context of a relationship between an unnamed faculty member souring as a result of refusing a closed door meeting with an undergraduate when she was seeking advice on something personal to her?

    I heard about this yesterday via one of my bosses, and I want to do something about it. The way it was presented to me (I am but a lowly staff member) was that these male faculty members don’t want to have closed-door meetings with undergraduates at all because they are afraid of women making false accusations. This is an issue near and dear to me. I’m not sure if this no-closed-doors policy extends to male students as well, but it just feels wrong to me that male faculty members are discussing this among themselves (and casting all female undergraduates as potential false accusers?!?) and not considering at all how the undergraduates experience meetings and policies like this. Anyways, I think I should maybe start with a discussion with my boss, but I’m not sure if it is a smarter decision to first make a call to the Office of Diversity and Inclusion or maybe the Title IX office to get some hard facts to present to my boss. I would like to suggest development of a process whereby faculty and students craft a policy together so that everyone feels safe and protected. Is this a terrible idea? Thoughts for how to approach it?

    1. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      Also, maybe it is helpful to note, I only know the identity of my boss, not the other faculty member nor the student in this case. I’d like to learn more information without coming across as tattling on faculty members at all, because that isn’t my intention. I just want to make the university a safer place for young women.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        Refusing to have closed door meetings with women (but fine with men) is Not Cool.

        Refusing to have closed door meetings with any students or reports because of the obvious power differential and frankly terrible general academic history of abusing that – Defensible.

        What other options do students have for one-on-ones? I’m thinking about counsellors or advisors. When I was an undergrad your academic supervisor and your pastoral tutor weren’t the same person.

        On the other hand, are there meeting rooms with glass walls and doors? Noisy coffee shop where no single conversation can be overheard but it’s a public space?

        If the students lose all their ability to have private or confidential one-on-ones, that makes the policy unacceptable. If that only applies to women students then ugh ugh and yikes.

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          I’ve now read everyone else’s comments and agree wholeheartedly with taking it to the experts – though being prepared for unsatisfying advice. Not all colleges are doing well at this.

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          Try to confirm whether it’s only with female students. If professors would hold closed-door meetings with male students, Title IX coordinator, asap.

    2. Gidget*

      Hmm. This is tricky. I will say that as a grad student we were advised against having closed door meetings with any students– male or female. This was interpreted not as a door couldn’t be physically closed, but as a door could never be locked or we had to be in a space where we were visible or that traffic/outsiders could freely enter without restriction. This definitely diminished the privacy but provided some degree of protection from potentially untoward situations. I would definitely reach out to the offices on campus to ask for their thoughts.

    3. Pam*

      I would start with the Office of Diversity/Title IX/Ombuds. This sounds like an issue that needs leadership from above.

    4. Kathenus*

      I think it’s great that you want to help address this, so kudos on that. For me it would depend a lot on my boss. If you feel that you can start a conversation with them, and that they’d be open to the discussion (especially the suggestion of making sure that anything in this area is done equally for all students not just females), then starting with your boss as a first step makes sense. If you’re not confident of that, then I think the Title IX office might be the best step to make sure that some type of action results. Great on you for trying to tackle this.

    5. Yes Anastasia*

      I’m not in academia, but I’d personally be wary of allowing faculty and students to handle it internally. I worry about the power differentials and the lack of outside accountability. If possible, I think it would make sense for the offices you mentioned to take the lead.

      If you have a good relationship with your boss, I do think it makes sense to touch base with them before you contact an outside office. Possible script: “I’m concerned that the way some faculty are handling closed-door meetings may violate (Title IX / university policy / etc.). I’d like to contact (Office) and get some guidance on how we should be handling this issue, so that faculty doesn’t have to figure it out on their own.”

    6. Kramerica Industries*

      Thank you for wanting to take action on this – we need more of this.

      So what gets me is that coming up with a process is one thing, but it seems like there are some biases by the professors that need to be addressed. You’re right – painting all females as possible accusers is SUPER gross. And that’s why I think this is a job for the Office of Diversity & Inclusion and they can direct you or take on the issue themselves. I think that your boss can help create better processes if he/she is open to it, but there’s a larger issue here. And who knows, maybe you bringing this up will help other departments across the university!

      1. litprof*

        Thank you for looking for ways to address this! I second the advice to take this to the Title IX office, Diversity & Inclusion office, or other relevant resources at your campus. Perhaps the first thing to figure out, though, is whether these professors were saying they want to refuse closed-door meetings only with female students (which is gross and unfair), or will all students. The latter is actually reasonable – it’s what I was advised to do as a graduate student, and I continue to do it as a faculty member. It’s not just, or even primarily, about protecting yourself from false accusations; it’s also about protecting students from suffering at the hands of people who will exploit the power differential between professors and students.

        Another thing to consider is that (at least at my institution) faculty fall into the category of “mandatory reporters.” This means that if a student discloses anything to us about sexual violence or harassment, we are required by law to report it through the university’s official channels to the Title IX office. So, I often have it at the back of my mind that I want students to feel comfortable with me to the extent that they would come to me for resources, and feel welcome to tell me about their lives, but I don’t want them to feel TOO comfortable, as they could unknowingly disclose something that I am then legally obligated to report, even if they don’t want me to. I usually handle this by putting a statement about my responsibilities in my syllabus, and telling them this in person, but I think that not fully closing my door during office hours is another way to signal that this is not a 100% private space (although I will honor requests for privacy whenever it doesn’t violate my legal obligations).

      2. Chili*

        painting all females as possible accusers is SUPER gross

        This sort of behavior from men (to keep them “safe” from unwanted accusations) has always bothered me for this reason. Especially because the people they’re “scared of” are much more likely to be sexually harassed and/or harmed by men like them than these men are likely to be falsely accused.

    7. Boba Feta*

      Others have basically said this, but your instincts are spot on : talk to the Title IX office with a mindset of “Asking for advice on how/ whether to broach this topic with anyone/ put it on their radar.” Very likely they will tell you to do nothing directly but will thank you for raising it with them.

      This is an issue for all the reasons outlined by you and others: The mindset is icky as hell but the reality is that closed doors do create power imbalances, and a student’s need for privacy to discuss sensitive issues should not be denied because of a faculty’s misguided biases and assumptions.

      I just wish I could tell the UG to find a different person to ask for help, but alas.

    8. Shell*

      Female faculty member here: at every place I’ve ever worked, it has been made clear that closed-door meetings with individual undergraduates should never happen. It doesn’t matter at all what sex the professor is or what sex the student is. We can talk quietly about your grades or your rough draft, but the door stays open. One thing it is supposed to help prevent is faculty members abusing their power over students. Professorial abuse (sexual or otherwise) of students a) is a horrible thing to do, b) really used to happen a lot and presumably still happens sometimes, and c) opens the university to legal liability.

    9. What the What*

      Female here. I’m perfectly okay with open door meetings. If a male or female, supervisor or subordinate wants to have an open door meeting with me, then I can totally respect that. I don’t really care about their reasoning behind it and really don’t want an explanation. The open door doesn’t have to be all about me and my preferences. I feel it’s okay to put others first and respect their diverse backgrounds/cultures/religions/beliefs/preferences. I don’t feel disrespected or demeaned by the open door. To me it’s just not a hill worth dying on.

    10. Reliquary*

      At my university (which, fwiw, is thought of as quite progressive in terms of mission and values), professors are strongly discouraged from meeting behind closed doors with any student, regardless of gender. Are you sure that’s not the case at your university?

  38. Penthesilea*

    I’m currently exploring new job possibilities and had coffee with the founder of a start-up last week. He’s an experienced guy (this would be his third start-up) and the internet tells me that he has a lot of money raised for this venture. Our conversation seemed to go well and we left things that he was going to have his co-founder reach out to me and also send me a few documents to look over. However, he hasn’t done either – and after thinking it over, I don’t think the start-up scene is right for me, regardless. I hate to have this loose end dangling out there. Should I preemptively reach out and tell him that I’m not interested? If so, what to say without burning a bridge (I don’t want to lose a connection)? Or should I just let it go and see if he circles back?

    1. Kathenus*

      I would reach out, thank him for the meeting and telling you more about the venture. Then just say that you’ve taken some time to think things over and don’t think that it’s a good fit at this point in time (or whatever phrasing works for you). It shouldn’t be burning a bridge if done politely and professionally. Maybe he’s disappointed if he really wanted you, but it’s also a very normal part of business (just like not getting a job you want), so it would be a red flag on him if it did burn a bridge. But if you know now, I think it is more respectful to say so now than to wait until he comes back to you on the next steps in the process.

  39. Rayray*

    Just feeling bugged by the crappy pto Americans tend to get. I’m just not feeling well, and I’ll probably leave early anyway but I wish we got better time off, so we could stay home when needed and take time to travel. It’s especially crappy when you’re new to your job and barely have any accrued so you’re trying to save days for a short vacation and holidays.

    2. BeanCat*

      I’m feeling the same. I burned through all of my PTO for doctor’s appointments (not even full day, just split up!) and illness – let’s not even talk about my surgery. I think I had a total of three or four days out of the twelve I get that I took off for having a short vacation :(

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      Get ready to be outraged:

      My husband works for a large multinational company with corporate offices all over the world. The PTO schedule varies by country; in the US, they get something like 3.5 weeks of PTO to start; in the UK they get between 8 and 10 weeks. Fine — it plays out weirdly on multinational teams, but whatever, it is what it is.

      My husband is based in their US headquarters (and is an American citizen). His boss is based in London, and occasionally the idea of relocating him to the UK comes up. But when we first started exploring it we learned that when American employees are relocated to the UK they just get the statutory holiday entitlement (5.6 weeks) — much less than what the UK workers are getting.

      2. UKCoffeeLover*

        In the UK there is no set amount of sick leave. You get annual leave which you take as and when you want it (approved by your manager of course), but that is not linked in any way to time you might need if you are ill. That means you can take a week off if you have flu, and still have all your paid annual leave intact.
        Some companies have a policy that if you have X amount of days in a set period of time (maybe 3 months), then your manager may meet with you to check if the work environment is affecting your health.
        If you are off sick for more than 28 days in a row, your pay may be reduced, but that depends on the company you work for. And STILL your annual leave will be available for you to take as wanted.
        So, I don’t think your information is correct. It would be illegal in the UK to not give an employee sick leave, or discriminate between employees from different countries.
        (FYI most companies give far more annual leave than the statutory 5.6 weeks too. Where I currently work we get 28 days annual leave per year PLUS all public bank holidays which is an additional 10/11 days per year)

  40. Jessen*

    So my manager at my current job is very hands-off. Really no feedback or anything. And I’m trying to think about how to kind of put myself out there as a good employee when I’m not in a structure that necessarily has a lot of opportunity for that. Some thoughts:

    – As a government worker, my role tends to be pretty strictly defined. There’s not a lot of opportunities to take on new stuff or interact significantly with different people. I’m generally expected, if something isn’t within my defined role, to pass it off to someone else.

    – One thing I have been doing is trying to overhaul my role’s documentation. Our team suffers from a bad case of “just ask the guy who’s been there forever.” But I feel like this is very behind the scenes and doesn’t get noticed.

    – Related to that, I’ve been really trying to spot security hole in our procedures and close them up. Not that we have any control over the computer infrastructure, but things like spelling out identity verification for password resets. (Our team is small enough I can do this by consensus.)

    I’ve been in this job for a year, and I’m not looking to move up right now, but I am looking to build a track record so when I do want to move either up or out I have stuff to point to. Preferably stuff that’s written down or acknowledged somewhere. Frankly I’m kind of bored where I am. But I’m not sure how to do that when I have management that’s so very hands-off.

    1. CheeryO*

      Honestly, as a fellow government employee that gets very little feedback, you might just need to content yourself with doing a good job with your core duties! One year is not a lot – if your coworkers are anything like mine, you will develop a reputation for being a hard worker just by doing quality work in a reasonable amount of time. However, if there is any room to get trained on other duties, definitely take any opportunity that you can. Even if you don’t end up taking them on full-time, it’ll help you be seen as someone who is engaged and willing to learn new things, and it never hurts to be a jack-of-all-trades.

      Also, I’m not sure that taking on projects outside of your core duties will necessarily help you get promoted within your existing track. At least in my experience, promotions are based in the same overly rigid structure that regular hiring is based in, so longevity ends up counting more than anything less easily-definable. Maybe that’s not the case everywhere, I’m not sure. I’d just be careful about focusing too much effort on anything outside of your core duties, especially if you’re in a union environment where people get snippy about out-of-title work.

      1. Jessen*

        It’s not union. It’s more that everything has to go through a strict layer of approval. You just can’t be a jack of all trades because you don’t have access. And no one’s going to give you access because it’s not in your job duties.

        My core duties right now aren’t really the sorts of things that can show anything interesting, honestly. And I’m worried about dead-ending myself just because there’s nothing I can do that would show any reason why I might be good at doing something else. Most of my stuff is it’s either done correctly or it isn’t, there’s no room to do it better or more efficiently or anything. Or if there is you’re not authorized to do it. (I’ve spent a lot of time manually copying hundreds of access permissions because the team who’s authorized to handle those and the team who’s authorized to run the sort of script that would allow copying by machine aren’t the same team.)

        I feel like what I described up there is the most I can do. Cross-training isn’t really a thing. Most of my job just amounts to whether or not I followed a script correctly. I have large chunks of time where there’s simply no work to be done – and I can’t follow most of the suggestions for finding other things to do because I’m not authorized. I’m really worried that I’m getting myself just locked in to a role because there’s no opportunity to do anything else or demonstrate that I’m any good at anything other than following rules.

        1. CheeryO*

          I gotcha. That’s pretty different than my situation, so hopefully someone else can offer some good advice. I totally commiserate on the boxed-in feeling, though. I could easily get stuck doing the same thing I do now for the next 30 years, and that’s a terrifying thought.

        2. Cog in the Machine*

          Are you able to take online trainings on your agency’s version of a training website? It can be a good way of staying busy with work related items in your down time.
          I had a coworker in my former office that went through our system and took anything free that seemed interesting.

          1. Jessen*

            I mean, I can do find things to do with my time, but that’s kind of aside from what I’m concerned about. I’m more looking at the idea of having some sort of track record that I can demonstrate. And right now I feel like I don’t have anything I can do that would show value beyond that I basically did my job.

            It’s unlikely in my position that anyone who would be hiring for a position I’d be interested in in the future would have much of any awareness of my day to day work, or be familiar with my reputation with my team. And I’m not able to generate anything concrete beyond yes, I followed instructions. I don’t get the sense that anyone would care if I watched trainings (there’s not a lot for me from the company) or funny youtube videos in my spare time.

      2. Middle Manager*

        Don’t know if it’s true where you are, but I’m my government office there are pretty routine requests for staff to lead things that aren’t exactly our work, but need done- the holiday charity drive, putting the emergency plan in place/being the point of contact for fire drills, party planning. Those can get you some visibility as someone who is willing to step up in my world, they are usually done by lower level staff but higher management participates, so it creates some awareness of your work ethic/organizational skills, etc.

  41. no name for this post*

    Today is the one year anniversary of a colleague’s death. He was a loved son, brother, grandson, nephew, cousin and friend. His girlfriend and her secret boyfriend both took deals for life with no parole and they admitted to murdering him for financial gain. So there won’t be a trial and things won’t be prolonged for the family. He was one of the best people I know. He was a good person who did a lot for the people in his life and he was an ally and a friend and just wonderful to be around. It was so senseless. There is a memorial for him later tonight. I just miss him and so do all my other colleagues. Not much work is getting done today but the management is understanding and they miss him too.

    1. PolarVortex*

      I’m sorry, there’s no good words to say beyond that, but truly I am sorry. He sounds like a wonderful human who was lost because of a senseless act.

    3. StellaBella*

      I am so very sorry for your loss, for what happened to him, for your company, for his family. What a tragedy. At the memorial tonight, be sure to share good memories and care for each other.

  42. Leaving a toxic but prestigious job?*

    I have been in my role for a year now. This is my second job after college and the first job that has ever had any “prestige.” As in, I get to work in the political world and lead a state wide team initiative. However, it is sucking the emotional and mental health out of me.

    A job opportunity came up that I was recruited for, a community teaching position (if anyone is familiar, university Extension) that would be tenure track. It sounds nice, less stress and political tension, and much better work culture.

    I think I would really like this job. However, some friends and my parents are telling me that I should be worried that it’s “not as prestigious” and that if I’m early in my career, I should stick this one out so I can boost my resume. I would rather choke on a spoon than stay here any longer.

    Should I even care about prestige? I have a few classmates who are getting on those “Under 30” lists and I’m proud of them, but is that what’s really important? At times I feel like that’s the internal pressure, to do something really cool and great RIGHT NOW. I think I’m also afraid someone or my boss at my job will be like “You’re leaving this to….teach classes for Extension? Really?”

    I still think the Extension job will give me great experience and I am still not 100% sure what I want my career path to look like. Just that I want to feel satisfied with my work and like I positively contributed. And also to save enough money to travel, which this Extension job will still do. Any words of wisdom?

    1. Colette*

      You get to choose the career you want. You’re not competing with anyone. I’d say go for the Extension job.

    2. AnonyNurse*

      Those awards don’t usually mean anything beyond who you know — look at the nomination requirements for one some time. You have the chance to do a job you’d like that will pay you enough to allow travel, your goal. Do it!!

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      F-ck the “under 30” lists. Are you working for your university alumni magazine, or are you working for yourself? I would take tenure track (plus the benefits and deferred compensation) over prestigious but soul-sucking any day.

      1. ten-four*

        YES THIS good lord! But also seriously, prestige is a joke. You’re the one who has to go to your job every day, and you should find a working approach that fits you and the life you want to live, not some imaginary construct that may or may not one day make it onto a list somewhere. And frankly it’s a good rule of thumb to leave jobs you hate if you have better options.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          + a gazillion. prestige 1) pays no bills and 2) is so very subjective that your internal satisfaction should always outweigh it.

    5. Clisby*

      I wouldn’t call it wisdom, since I’m now retired and out of the workplace, but … I would have thought early in your career is the best time to try new things.

    6. Delta Delta*

      My experience with extension classes is that they are often offered in evenings and weekends so people other than traditional students can take them. in addition to being a neat tenure-track opportunity, you may end up meeting all sorts of interesting people in your classes.

    7. Joielle*

      I recently left a prestigious but high-stress job for a much less prestigious but WAY calmer one, and it was honestly the best decision I’ve ever made. I sleep so much better, I have dinner with my husband every night, I have time for friends and hobbies, I actually have a vacation planned… I know there are people who don’t understand, but I don’t care because I’m so happy leaving work at 4 pm every day (and not checking email again until the morning). It’s such an incredible relief to suddenly just… not have to care about the politics and drama anymore, and not have to worry about cancelling plans yet again because of some crisis. I did the last job for 6 years and by the end I was getting really jaded, and it was terrible for my mental health and overall mood. I say go for it!

    8. SigneL*

      Life is too short to spend time working at a job that is less attractive than choking on a spoon. Go for it and don’t look back!

    9. only acting normal*

      Do the people projecting their doubts on you 1) understand how big a deal tenure track is, (kinda sorta prestigious in its own way really) and 2) how batshit crazy the political world is??
      You have a year in a “prestigious” role under your belt. You don’t like the current job, and you have a good offer that appeals to you… go for it!

  43. Uialdis*

    I’m a few weeks into a new job and I’m starting to worry. I work with a handful of people and they all seemed super nice and easygoing in the interview and when I first started (in fact, I had two job offers and chose this one because my coworkers seemed so likeable) but now people seem a lot more unhappy than I thought and I feel like the mask is starting to slip. My boss will say things like “don’t be afraid to ask questions – constantly, if you need to”, then coming across really condescendingly when I do. The work itself is fine and similar to what I’ve done before. So far, I’m maintaining but past experiences with toxic coworkers has me pretty wary. I think the other people I work with are fine but there’s an overall weird vibe here that makes me worry I’ve made a terrible mistake.

    1. Camellia*

      It might be worth reaching out to see if the other opportunity is still available. If it is, how do you feel about that? Relief that perhaps you could take it and get away from where you are now? This is the perfect time to say the fit just wasn’t right so you made the change.

      And if it is NOT available, well, how do you feel about that? Sinking feeling in your stomach? Or do you feel okay?

      Just a couple of things to try to help you figure out how you feel and what you may want to do about it.

  44. NoName*

    More a vent than a question. My division within a larger department has one hourly worker (Pat) amongst the rest who are all salaried. This employee has been at our workplace forever, and has always been hourly to the best of my knowledge.

    Any time anything comes up that’s salaried-specific, Pat will near inevitably turn it into a complaint, denying it as a complaint, and rephrased as a “I’m just sayin'” sort of response. We had a discussion about who’d be working from where on a particular day, and our grand-boss said to just put in for either WFH, PTO, or on-site work. Sure enough, Pat chimes in about how those people (everyone else at the table) who are allowed to WFH can’t be using it as a Black Friday shopping day or anything but has to actually work. Boss and grand-boss both look up and say uh, hasn’t been a problem with our team and activity lists/trackers/etc are required. The “I’m just sayin'” response comes back. It’s happened other times too with scheduling, with a ‘well SOME of us can’t WFH’ interjection, when the rest of us need to work out a schedule.

    I can’t tell if it’s part jealousy or part a ‘seniority’ based (but not reality based) issue with suspecting we’re not working if we’re WFH. I actually do better WFH because it’s quiet and I can dive in without interruption. I’ve just started acknowledging these little comments with an “OK” and going back to the discussion. Pat may have a reason to be annoyed at not having this ability, but the other workers can’t do anything about that and we still have to work out the calendar on who’s going to be where so that we know. (It’s not a ‘coverage’ issue, just for awareness of who is where, when.)

    1. Mazzy*

      Well, it is kind of weird that they treat only one person differently. Is her role really that different? Her comments may be unnecessary, but both sides bear responsibility if they have her as the only one treated differently

      1. Mae*

        Agree. If 1 person is being treated differently than the rest of the staff, I can see why they would feel miffed.

        1. NoName*

          We have a mix of roles in the workgroup – doctoral degree holders down to high school diplomas, with equivalently-matching roles. So it’s a very small group with wildly-differing responsibilities. It’s pretty normal in the institution to have this setup – think like having doctors, nurses, an office manager, and office clerks in a medical practice.

      2. NoName*

        The role is different, yes; admin assistant/support staff. There is some overlap in duties but on the simpler stuff, and with hiring on more salaried people, more of the overlap will be taken away. Pat took a professional exam previously, possibly as an attempt to move up in role, but didn’t pass.

        Part of my irritation is around other “tone policing” from Pat, who is very prone to expressing opinions – including opinions of your opinions/feelings and how valid they are. An example is we were discussing start/stop times (*all* of us have flexibility in when we start the work day), and I was saying something about how I wouldn’t want to start later because of the commute duration changing at that time means I’d never see my partner due to their work shift.Pat jumped in, saying how complaining about commute times is senseless because that’s just about where you choose to live in relation to your job (Pat lives much closer to work than I do). But try to say anything back similarly and you get talked over and “I’m just saying”-d down.

        1. AcademiaNut*

          Why not respond with “just saying” when she tries to tone police you. :-)

          But seriously, it sounds very passive aggressive. I’d guess that she resents the fact that she’s in an hourly job and failed to move up to a salaried one, and can’t resist the urge to needle the salaried workers whenever she gets a chance. I might stop with the even okay, and just ignore her completely when she comes up with these little digs. If she keeps poking, maybe an “Oh, I didn’t realize you needed an answer.” to highlight that it’s pure complaining.

      3. zora*

        Um, no, this is a pretty common thing, basically dictated by law, and there is no need to act like Pat is.

        I am also the only non-exempt person in an entire office of exempt people, and there are certain things that I just have to do differently than the rest of them. But it has benefits to me, too. I don’t make a big deal about the ways it’s a little annoying for me, because it’s not any of my coworkers’ problem, and it’s no one’s fault! It’s how worker protection laws work in this country.

        Pat ESPECIALLY doesn’t need to worry about what her coworkers do, since she has a different setup. She should keep her eyes on her own damn paper.

  45. Cruciatus*

    I recently found out our employer (a large university) is going to require us to use a vacation day December 30. Since I’ve worked here (4 years) this has never come up, so I just assumed that time off between Christmas and New Year’s Day was a given. I don’t know if it’s because of how Christmas and New Year’s Day are falling or what that explains why they need vacation time this year, but since I found out, I don’t know why, but this has just cheesed me off!
    Is it worth trying to get them to reconsider (politely)? They said we can work, but “temperature conditions will be less than ideal”. Is that even OK? And that doesn’t mention whether parking lots will be plowed (snow belt), if the buildings will even be opened by campus police, etc. There will literally (besides essential personnel) be no. one. on. campus.
    I understand none of this is illegal, but I am just fired up enough that I need to say something, even if it’s unlikely to change anything! Everyone I have spoken to, as they realize we’ll have to use PTO, are now irritated as well. The university quietly shared the notice 4 days before classes started in their emailed newsletter (so everyone I know except 1 missed it). They expect the people who receive the fewest vacation days (staff) to use their own time off for a day the university is closed anyway (though as I wrote, we are technically allowed to come in, but to poor conditions). It seems unfair. Just give us the damn day off! Faculty don’t have to worry about this. Obviously not students. And to top it off, faculty and students will also get MLK Day off while staff has to report then too. Our time off starts December 23—why not make us work that day (or use a vacation day then) so we could have a full week off after Christmas? It just doesn’t make sense to me, seems unfair, and just feels like a penalization somehow for being staff. One person told me I was being ridiculous and “should be grateful” but, well, I’m somehow not!

    1. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      If you can’t get the university to change their policy (although pushing back as a group sounds like a great idea!), in your shoes I’d ask my boss if I could work from home that day, if that’s possible for your role. That way you at least get to skip the parking lots, the buildings maybe not being open, and you can work in your pajamas with warm food and tea all day.

      1. Cruciatus*

        Unfortunately I don’t have a WFH component. The director of our unit said we can come in and play solitaire if we want. I’m likely going to take the hit to my PTO, but I’m just irritated I have to do that. Nothing will be available to students–food services is even shut down. International students who don’t go home are found other places to stay. There is no one who wants to come to campus during this time!

    2. yala*

      I work for a university, and we’re required to do this as well. The winter break generally takes about 40 hours (sometimes more sometimes less) from our annual leave.

      In our case (don’t know about yours), it’s because our university is also a state institution, so we work for the state. The state isn’t closed on those (just Christmas/New Years Eve/Day) days, but the university is. So…out it comes.

      However, the university is very up front about it–they lay out the information in the job interview stage to make sure potential employees understand the arrangement. Springing it on y’all like this just seems pretty crummy.

      Also, don’t know how it is y’all don’t get MLK day off! That’s ridiculous. Even we get that off!

      1. yala*

        Also, if it’s a matter of “less than ideal” temperature conditions…that sounds like a weather thing. A university should absolutely not be taking staff’s leave if they’re closed for bad weather.

        1. Cruciatus*

          Well, it will be cold because it’ll be winter, but it’s because they turn the heat down to maybe 55° or so. So there could be bad weather (which we’re used to), but in this instance the “less than ideal” temps is actually because they turn the heat and electricity down or off.

          1. WellRed*

            If they want people to work they need to have the temperature set at a reasonable degree (I don’t know what that temp is, but I am sure it’s defined somewhere).

            1. Ama*

              Yeah they can’t have it both ways — either it is a required work day and facilities are at their normal temperatures or they can have the facilities turned down and give everyone either the day off or the option to work from home. That may be the point you could push back on.

      2. Academic Tenure Track Librarian*

        Yep, this is us. Very, very, very quiet. We make the best of it by ordering in pizza. Purging files. Last year we had a lunch and showed Desk Set over two days. State U.

    3. Blue Eagle*

      You are able to take off the week between Christmas and New Year’s. That’s great! At my job we are not able to take that week off (i.e. can’t use vacation or PTO that week).

    4. NoodleMara*

      My large university employer gives all staff a winter break paid (not using banked PTO) between Christmas and new years including contract employees who don’t work on campus like me. It’s worth seeing if a bunch of you can get together and ask for it. It is a state/land grant university so there are some out there doing it that you can use as an example.

  46. Boom*

    I only have 3 weeks left at my toxic, awful job! I have nothing lined up but I’m applying like crazy and I’m hopeful. Anything is better than this snake trap.

    3. Boom*

      Wow, just want to add that I just saw my job posting up. They are upping the years’ experience they want but lowering the salary. What a bunch of poops.

  47. Nancie*

    The company I work for chose not to renew the lease on the office building my team works out of, and it’ll be another two months (at least) before construction is completed on our space in the new combined offices. So as of next week, we’re all working from home for a while. WFH over at least half of our winter weather? Yes please!

    The only real weirdness — one (new) VP level person is demanding that we all have web cameras, so that we can join web conferences with video. Our company just doesn’t use video with web conferences — the visual side is always used for sharing desktops. I suspect she thinks we’re all going to be working from the mall or something.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Nothing wrong with that, if you’re actually spending 8 hrs working. I have a friend (US citizen) who works remotely, negotiated into her job. One year, she was 2mo in Ireland, 2mo in France, 1mo in Germany. She’s working westward this year, San Jose / Hawaii / Phillipines (to spend time with extended family), maybe New Zealand. She’s getting stellar reviews and bonuses, and her internal bosses are fighting over whose team she’s on.

        1. Flyleaf*

          How do they handle it from a tax situation? The employer would need to file taxes in every one of those countries and states. It can be a real mess.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            She wasn’t in any of these long enough to trigger tax implications, and she wasn’t working for any local businesses or customers. I spent 2mo in France working my US job, and checked with my company’s legal / tax dept. Tax issues kick in if you’re there to work for local customers OR if you’re there for more than 3mo (EU).

            1. Flyleaf*

              What about the time in California (San Jose)? My experience is that CA will claim income taxes even if the working visit is short (less than six weeks).

      2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        Spouse had to fire someone for this. Report turned out to have moved about 1500 miles from his declared place of work.

      3. Bilateralrope*

        If the VP thinks a webcam will catch that, just think of the fun you could have with a green screen behind you.

  48. Neosmom*

    My nephew has just gotten out of a toxic work situation in Baltimore and starts a new job Monday in Atlanta at double the salary! He thanked me at dinner last night for my suggestion earlier this year that he read AAM daily. So proud of him as he starts on this new adventure.

  49. Leela*

    Marvel at these terrible interview questions from an article I was sent on LinkedIn:

    Frohwein: One of the most important things we’ve done is design job interviews to figure out whether people are self-aware. We ask a bunch of really bizarre questions: What’s the one word you’d like on your tombstone? What’s your favorite curse word? People are like, “Why the heck are they asking those questions?” They’re intended to see if people know what they’re good at and know what they suck at. You also figure out whether they’re willing to lend a hand when somebody raises one and willing to raise their hand when they need help–whether they’re comfortable being vulnerable in the workplace and whether they’re respectful of others and caring.

    …..How does knowing offhand what one word you’d like on your tombstone tell people if you know what you’re good at and what you suck at?
    Article here: https://www.inc.com/magazine/201911/cameron-albert-deitch/kabbage-rob-frohwein-lyfe-marketing-keran-smith-sean-sherman-standberry-hiring-culture-growth.html

    1. Hemlock3630*

      We had a job interview like that. Last minute the Director adds in a question “If you could be an inanimate object what would you like to be and why?” The winning candidate answered ‘old shoe’ since it would mean she had been well used and useful, and hopes that she would have been brought along with to some fun and interesting experiences. Another candidate answered ‘a cloud, since then I’d be up on high and could watch what everyone else is doing’. The cloud answer was kinda creepy.

      1. Leela*

        the worst! It’s soooo open to interpretation, and because of the pressure candidates feel to answer quickly they’re just choosing a somewhat reasonable answer under a lot of extra pressure to answer “right”, not knowing that the director is really after. I bet the director feels they’re getting all kinds of neat insider info by asking such a crafty question but what they’re actually doing is imposing their interpretation on something someone had to pull out of their ass last minute that really doesn’t tell them what they need to know. Why not just ask what they’re asking?

      2. cmcinnyc*

        That’s the point where I stand up, smile, and say “It was nice meeting you all. Thank you for your time!” and sail on out of there. Because I’m self-aware to know I would hate all these people within a month.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Maybe the one word on your tombstone is supposed to be POWERPOINT or GUMPTION or SYNERGY.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I think the takeaway is, those job interviews show that the people involved in coming up with those questions are good at inventing ridiculous things to throw at candidates and they suck at hiring. So, mission accomplished?

    4. Vladislav*

      All I can think for the tombstone one is “VAMPYRE”

      Now I’m just giggling to myself at my desk

  50. De Minimis*

    Had an odd week. My boss was fired last week and there’s been such a positive change in the office since then. I’ve been working with the CFO to cover some of the things my boss had been doing, and I’d hoped that I might have an opportunity to eventually take over the position. Unfortunately, that isn’t going to happen–earlier this week they offered the position to a former employee who had held it in the past, but had left a few years ago.

    This rubs me the wrong way, I feel like they should have at least posted the position and given people a chance at it instead of just hiring someone, even they had prior history in the job. I know I haven’t been at this employer very long, but I was very well qualified for the position. My previous boss had been planning to leave in a couple of years and had talked about my possibly taking over, so now I feel the possibility of career growth here is limited. I started the week excited about working toward a possible promotion and finally getting a position that was more in line with what I can really do, but feel like the rug was pulled out from under me, and now I’m contemplating leaving sometime next year.

    The positive though is that it’s so much easier to come into work now that my horrible boss is gone, and I realize just how toxic the environment had been with her there. My one coworker who was around the last time the new/old manager was in the position says that they are good to work with, so at least there’s that. But I’m still a little upset that apparently promoting me was never considered. I feel like I’m doomed to eternally be stuck in positions where I’m overqualified and won’t ever live up to my potential.

    2. Leela*

      Have you had a chance to talk to whoever is above you (maybe the CFO you’ve been working with, although I don’t know if you’re officially “reporting” to them in your boss’ absence) about this, and say “I was hoping to discuss what growth for me might look like here, I’d been thinking I might move into my boss’ position but now that someone’s hired into that I feel like that’s not going to be an opportunity for the forseeable future. Are there other roles that make sense to transition me to, or other projects that I could be a part of?”

      At both healthy and toxic companies, this might have them considering you a flight risk. At a healthy company though, they’d look for ways to keep you if you’re a good employee, even if that was just career-building projects if not another role they could find. At a toxic one they might just stamp their feet and try to push you out for daring to not stay in that box forever because it’s convenient for them.

      It is also possible that they have something in mind for you! It’s possible that getting rid of that boss meant some other restructuring is happening and they might have some kind of move/extra responsibility/title (which in a good company would come with a pay increase) for you and that’s why they’re moving someone in to replace the boss. Of course I can’t say for sure but it is one possible explanation!

      1. De Minimis*

        I think they just wanted to fill the vacancy as soon as possible, and the person they’re hiring was a known element. If they had turned it down, promoting me might have become an option, or at least they might have posted the job. I think I’m probably just too new in my current position for them to have considered me. My position itself is new, and I think it’s still hard to say how I fit in the organization. We have a planned expansion and I’m supposed to be more involved with that, but it hasn’t happened yet. I’m unsure whether we really need my position and the manager position at the same time.

        We’re a mid-size nonprofit [medical clinic] but have a fairly small finance team. Our turnover is super high, and I think there are a lot of issues in all the departments.

        Another thing I find troubling is that we’re supposed to utilize preference hiring from a certain population [of which I’m a member] and it seems like that was circumvented here. I don’t believe the new manager coming in is a member of the preferred population, but I don’t think it would help me to make an issue of it.

        1. CupcakeCounter*

          I would bet it is a combination of known element and not knowing you all that well yet. Its also possible this person is coming in on a temporary basis (1-2 years) while they determine the next step for you and the expansion.
          Since you say there is a lot of turnover, this move might have been strategic to bring some security to the team.

  51. Birthday Girl*

    I just want to see if anyone else thinks this is weird or if I’m overreacting:

    My company was recently acquired by a larger U.S.-based company (we’re Canadian). I got an email the author day from someone claiming to be a coordinator in the CEO’s office, saying the CEO liked to send “personal birthday messages” to all employees, requesting my personal email address so he can deliver this message. Why do they need my personal email? It’s not exactly private information but I still don’t want the CEO emailing my personal email (I don’t really want the birthday message either, but that’s fairly innocuous).

    1. yala*

      That…is really weird. A little invasive.

      Probably not a hill worth dying over, tho I’d just give him a dummy address.

      1. valentine*

        Report it as spam because, obvs, your CEO would never use your PPI without a true business need. I hope this isn’t your office’s version of the ugly onesie.

    2. Laika*

      Ugh, no, I think that’s a bit weird too. But I think maybe you can get away with a cheerful “Oh, that’s a kind thought. My work email would be fine for a birthday message!”, or something similar. Then if they give any pushback, there might be more wiggle room to ask why they couldn’t send that to your work email/why they really want your personal email inside.

      2. Birthday Girl*

        I ignored the email, but if they follow up I’ll use one of the responses suggested here. I even looked up the person who sent the email on Linkedin because at first I thought it might be a phishing scam lol

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          You should have an internal directory where you can find this person’s phone #, and you really should call them. This *screams* phishing, and the real person needs to know if she’s being used for phishing attempts.

    4. Nessun*

      Oh ICK. Yeah, that’s a hard no – zero reason for needing a personal email address. If the CEO wanted to send me a “personal birthday message” (!), he could send it to my work email, where I can glance at it, roll my eyes, and then delete it and get on with my day.

      I’d respond and say “I prefer to keep my personal and business emails separate. Since this would be a message from the CEO, for me it falls in the latter category. Thanks for understanding.”

    5. Chili*

      Watch out: it might be a phishing scam or a test by your company to see who would respond to a phishing scam. I would ask your boss and IT person about it before you take any action.

      1. Ama*

        Yeah that was my first thought. We regularly get emails spoofing our CEO’s email asking for weird and random info that if we didn’t take a couple seconds to think about it we might actually think is legitimate (thankfully so far no one has fallen for it).

    6. time for tea*

      That one is weird to me. Personal birthday messages to my work e-mail? Uh, I guess…. Personal birthday e-mails to my personal e-mail? NOPE. My immediate question is “what is in these e-mails that can’t go to my work e-mail address”. That’s also all my questions after that.

    7. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I’d be suspicious that this is a phishing attempt. If it were me, I might look up the CEO’s office on the company intranet to verify the name of that coordinator and actually call them on the phone to confirm what’s up.

    8. Jules the 3rd*

      wait what? No way, that’s so weird that I’d check whether there’s a scam / it’s really from them (ie, find this person in your company directory and call to ask if they really sent that email).

      Messages from work go to work emails. That’s what they’re for.

    9. cmcinnyc*

      Forward it to your IT dept and say it looks like a phishing scam is using CEO’s info. It either *is* a phishing scam or IT will tell CEO to knock it off because it *looks* like a phishing scam.

  52. yala*

    I think I’ve got to accept that my Wellbutrin isn’t working anymore.

    I got an ADHD diagnosis this past summer and started on it. After just two weeks, it was *amazing.* Like there were always a dozen radios in my brain playing different stations, and someone went and turned them down.

    It was *so* much easier to just sit down and focus on work.

    But for the past month or so, it’s been…not that. And this past week, it’s like all the radios are just back at high volume.

    I’m just really bummed. I LOVED quiet-brain, and now that I’ve had that, I know what it’s “supposed” to be like, and the lack of it hits harder. I guess I’m going to have to change my medication, and I’m not looking forward to playing “hit or miss.” Also, Dr has no availability until January. … im so tired, but also I want to scream.

    1. Jamie*

      I’m in a similar boat. I’ve been off my ADHD meds since I lost my job a year and a half ago and haven’t gone back yet. I need to, but I keep putting it off because I just don’t want to deal with the doctor and insurance, etc.

      I have no advice, just sympathy. Have you made your appointment for January?

    2. Legally a Vacuum*

      It’s worth seeing if they can adjust your dosage or add another med that works well with Wellbutrin. I’ve been on Wellburtin+ Vyvanse for a few years now and it’s been a life-changer.

    3. AJK*

      I’m on a combination of Wellbutrin and Strattera, they did have to up my Wellbutrin this past summer but the doctor said she started me off a little low so she wasn’t surprised. I like Strattera because it’s not a stimulant or a controlled substance, but I know it doesn’t work for everyone. There are lots of options, most people I know have had to try more than once to find the exact right combination that works for them. It’s a pain of a process but once you get the dosages right – well, you know.
      One thing I did find with the Wellbutrin is that it’s effects start off strong and then taper somewhat as you get used to it. (Which is part of why my doctor upped the dosage, although it’s also supposed to give my anti-anxiety meds a boost, too) I know from experience that it can be a difficult process to find exactly what works for you, but it will be worth it in the end. Best of luck!

      1. Andytron*

        My spouse’s experience was the same: initially great, but then it trickled off and the dosage had to be increased and some other things added to the mix. Unfortunately, it’s not uncommon to take a while to get meds dialed in just right. Good luck!

    6. Autumnheart*

      I went off ADHD meds for that very reason. They worked for a while, then stopped being effective. My doctor and I increased the dose a couple times, but after a year, I looked at the amount of hassle and cost involved, and decided that the negatives of managing the medication outweighed the benefits of taking it.

      Right now I take a caffeine + L-theanine pill, and it works okay. It’s also a hell of a lot cheaper and easier to get.

    7. LGC*

      I’m so sorry!

      So – question: does your doctor have absolutely no availability until January? I feel like a lot of this is, “I can’t see you for routine stuff until January, but let me know if emergencies come up,” and I think that “my meds stopped working” is pretty darn urgent. (You’re not a danger to yourself, but this is still pretty important information.)

      Work-wise, is this going to affect your job?

      1. blaise zamboni*

        +1. Assuming this is a family/internal medicine doctor (not a psychiatrist), ask the office if any of his PA or NP staff have appointments available. They can also prescribe medication, and if they aren’t authorized they can get him to order the meds later in the day. If that doesn’t help, you can try sending a message through your electronic portal, or ask to leave a voicemail for him. It sounds like you need an adjustment to your dosage, which isn’t too time-consuming for your doc but is obviously pressing for you! Be polite, but feel free to push back on the office staff about your well-being and comfort.

  53. Adam*

    I accidentally found out two of my coworkers are seeing each other. Both of them are married to others who also work here (big, Fortune 500 company, they employ thousands, the majority of people in this city and area work here, so it’s not weird for spouses and families to all work here). Their spouses work in other divisions and no one is a manager or in charge of anyone else. My coworkers are adamant that no one can no because their marriages are not open and they don’t want their spouses to find out. I know I should think this is none of my business but I do also know their spouses even though they both work in other divisions and both couples have a toddler at home. This is eating away at me and and comments / advice / suggestions from the wise commentators here are helpful and appreciated.

    1. Jamie*

      Why can’t people keep their gross personal secrets to themselves? I get it, I wouldn’t want to know this either.

      If you know then others will and eventually it will get back to their spouses, I wouldn’t say or do anything, just remain completely uninvolved. I will never understand this kind of workplace drama.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Same. I don’t get it either. If you’re going to be gross and cheat, keep it out of my face.

        1. valentine*

          I can’t believe they keep escalating. You’ll want to distance yourself well before they implode both families.

          Who do you trust to do something about it? I’d be kicking this upstairs.

    2. DrTheLiz*

      Just stay the heck out of it. There’s no good ending for you, I think: say something and four co-workers are angry with you (nobody likes the messenger). Don’t say anything and two co-workers might get angry (if they find out, then find out that you knew and then blame you for not telling them). It’s ultimately not your business. That said, if either of the two involved people try to confide in you, you want to stay welllll out of the drama and a “that would be far too awkward, I occasionally have to look your spouse in the face and that’s hard enough already” should shut things down fast.

      Sorry you’re in this situation, it sucks.

    3. time for tea*

      I’d say let it go unless you know them socially out of work and know them both equally, in which case, they’re putting you in a position of having to be complicit in their secret against someone you actually know/interact with, and it’s making you take their side by default. In that case, I’d tell the spouse.

      Like, if my coworker just put me in a position of having to smile at someone in synagogue and pretend that the person next to her isn’t a cheater? I’d 100% tell her what’s going on. Because once the spouse finds out, and then finds out that I kept it from them? LOL no. Sometimes “not getting involved” isn’t an option because someone already involved you against your will. In which case, you’re involved. Best way to get uninvolved is come clean and then nope out from being further involved.

    4. Jedi Squirrel*

      If you don’t manage any of them, then it’s definitely a case of “not my circus, not my clowns.”

      Just have some popcorn ready in case things get interesting.

    5. Person from the Resume*

      I recommend you say nothing. Don’t lie for them. But don’t proactively bring it up to their spouses because that brings you much more into the center of their cheating. I’m sorry that your coworkers put you in the middle of it. If they try to drag you in further by sharing any more information, shut them down, walk away.

      I’m sorry. This sucks.

    6. thestik*

      …I feel like you’re talking about my workplace. Sometimes I like being a big company because the odds of finding a team I can work are better. This situation, though, reminds me of the downside (especially as someone who’s poly).

    7. Autumnheart*

      I’d take the approach of “This isn’t my problem, and I’m not going to make it my problem.” Don’t promise to keep it a secret, and tell them point-blank that you’re not going to lie and cover for them if anyone asks. If they don’t like that answer, they can stop having an affair.

      I’d probably also stop interacting with these coworkers except where strictly necessary. Eventually this is going to cause a ruckus in the office, and you don’t want to get caught in the crossfire.

    8. very grateful person*

      I don’t know what you should do, but your dilemma is covered at the Chumplady website.

  54. Laika*

    Awkward situation at work yesterday… I think? One of our two team leads (for our group of ~14 staff) has unexpectedly taken leave and they need someone to step up and fill the role in the meantime. I only found this out because one of the higher-ups in the organization was having this conversation with the remaining lead, in a very public space(!), when I suspect they thought they were alone. When they started talking about drawing up a list of suitable candidates, I kind of awkwardly interjected (I’m here! Haha!) and the higher-up seems pretty surprised to see that I was there – super weird, because I was sitting less than five feet away from him!

    This actually wasn’t public information, because as far as the team knew, the lead that’s now away was fine, had been in earlier this week, etc. Now I just feel a bit awkward, because I actually am interested in the role, but feel like I was prematurely sucked into the conversation about it!

    Thank goodness it’s Friday – I can set it aside for the weekend and hope that there’s more clarity around it on Monday.

  55. DrTheLiz*

    How the eff do I find a job? I’ve been looking for more than a year (moved to Germany, academia-adjacent). I am checking all the major job boards, I’ve had my CV and example cover letters checked by several people who say they’re fundamentally fine, what do I do? Cold-call people?? Suggestions appreciated.

    1. Legally a Vacuum*

      Are there any niche or specialty job boards you can use? I’ve had more luck with them than with major job boards.

      1. DrTheLiz*

        I’m mostly on organisation-specific ones (eg Springer Nature’s internal). I think I’m also on all the more niche boards people use (I see a moderate amount of repeats), but it’s hard to be sure.

  56. Fabulous*

    I had interview last week for a job I couldn’t pass up applying, despite the fact I’m happy in my current position of 3yrs with great benefits and supreme flexibility in relation to working from home and my daily working times. I was concerned about losing these benefits should I decide to leave and was wondering when was the best time to ask about their offerings. The company (a nonprofit) actually offered a handout of their benefits during the interview! And astoundingly their benefits matched up almost exactly with my current (for-profit) employer’s!

    On Monday when I finally sent my “thank you” email—we had immediately left town for a funeral after the interview so I didn’t get to reply as soon as I usually would, which turned out to be a good thing—I also decided to withdraw from the running. In addition to losing my WFH flexibility and future advancement potential, the new job had occasional evening and weekend hours that I hadn’t considered previously, which is kind of a no-go with my husband’s night shift.

    I still haven’t heard back an acknowledgement to my email, even though I sent it to all three interviewers (and the receptionist who scheduled the interview). As tempting as it was, I feel like I made the right decision. Plus, my boss is going to put me in for another raise before the year is out, which will hopefully add $10-15k to my income *fingers crossed!!*

  57. This Old House*

    What are the optics surrounding “mental health days”? I almost took one today – somewhere between “mental health day” and “sick day,” actually, because yesterday I was just so tired I could barely function. (I’m feeling better now and figured I’d not waste the day.) But I live and work in the same town – would I then be required to hole up inside all day, because if I go run errands or get a cup of coffee in town, I could be seen by someone from work and look like I’m “faking” it? (To be clear, I would not be walking right past the office or anything, but my job’s only 10 minutes away and someone going out for lunch or running to the post office could theoretically see me.) I do not actually think my mental health would be improved by 8 hours of Netflix as much as it would be by, I dunno, reading a book in a coffee shop or going for a hike, but are those off-limits unless you have a substantial commute that would render them invisible to coworkers?

    1. CheeryO*

      I would probably stay home in that situation, but I could see risking it. Not only would you have to run into someone, but it would also have to be someone who (1) noticed you, (2) knew that you were “sick,” and (3) cared enough to pass judgement either way.

    2. WellRed*

      For me, a mental health day means I am not at work, but not that I am stuck at home. I just needed a break from work, however I choose to spend that break.

    3. LGC*

      I wouldn’t hang out in town, but I actually think you might be able to get away with going for a hike (as long as you don’t do anything silly like post to social media). It really depends on the work culture, whether you work with the LW from yesterday (who…again, I almost feel bad for dunking on again), so on and so forth.

      My employees have been direct about needing mental health days, and I’m okay with it. As long as you’re not calling out a lot, it’s not a major problem. (Probably like once every couple of months or so. But that’s just my preference.) I don’t take mental health days myself, but that’s just me. (I prefer scheduling days off, since I get anxious if I can’t come into work unexpectedly.)

      1. consultinerd*

        Ding ding ding. If you need to get away from being cooped up at home, take a short day trip somewhere you wouldn’t have any reason to run into coworkers.

        That said, good employers seem to be getting more understanding of the mental health day, especially if you’re seen as responsible and competent in your role, and don’t abuse days out (e.g. calling in while your team is scrambling on a big deadline). Might be worth quietly asking around with trusted colleagues at your work if this is a done thing.

    5. Dancing Otter*

      If I’m genuinely ill, I might go out to see the doctor or PA. Having done so, I might well stop for coffee, especially if I have to wait for a prescription to be ready. If a coworker saw me and said anything derogatory, hey, it’s hard to be polite when you feel like death warmed over. Just saying….
      Seriously, it’s totally reasonable that you had to go out to the store for OTC medicine, or chicken soup and orange juice . (A theater or a clothing store might be a little harder to explain away.). I only *wish* I didn’t have to go out when I’m sick.

  58. Parcae*

    Am I being the office Grinch?

    For background, my office of ten people has a holiday dinner every year with a Yankee Swap-style book exchange. I’m not the biggest holiday party person, but I’ve always thought ours was pretty good– company pays for dinner and drinks, SOs are invited but not compulsory, books are relatively cheap gifts… it works great and I always have a decent time.

    This year, an additional, “100% optional” Secret Santa program was proposed. Each person will buy three gifts for their assigned recipient according to (as yet TBD) themes. The gifts are supposed to cost $5-10 each. This would not be a financial hardship for me, but I’d still rather… not. It just seems like a lot of work! So I politely RSVP’d yes for the dinner but opted out of the Secret Santa. Only problem? I’m apparently the ONLY person in the office who didn’t sign up for Secret Santa. Come to find out my boss is exchanging emails with all the higher ups in the office, trying to figure out how to best include me in the festivities– apparently they were planning on getting me gifts anyway!

    I talked to my boss and reiterated that I didn’t feel left out and was really happier not getting gifts (that frankly I’d probably just toss or donate), but… can I get away with this, or is it going to make my boss realize I’m job hunting?

    1. rayray*

      I don’t know that I’d be excited about that Secret Santa thing either. I get the reason behind a budget, but trying to find THREE $5-$10 things that aren’t just junk could be hard. Cheap junky gifts given out of obligation are the worst, and I just don’t care to have smelly lotions or teddy bears. I wouldn’t participate either.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      So I guess the Secret Santa was their plan for entertainment at the party? And they had all sorts of other festivities planned to go along with it? That was just bad planning on their part. They should have made it mandatory.
      At my last job, they had an optional rob your neighbor at the holiday party. About half the company participated and the booked a conference room for those who wanted to play. A few people came just to watch. That worked out well because it wasn’t part of a destination party and it was easy to opt in or out.
      I don’t understand why they already bought you gifts if the Secret Santas haven’t been assigned? Do they think you opted out because of religious reasons and you cannot be given a gift at all?

      1. Parcae*

        No, it seems that we’re to give one gift a day for three days leading up to the party/dinner. The entertainment there will be the rob your neighbor book exchange, which I’m fine with.

        They haven’t bought me gifts; they were merely proposing to, which I’ve declined. I don’t think religion is an issue here, as they know I’m a liberal, mainstream sort of Christian. I exchange gifts with relatives and very close friends, and I’ve always participated in the book exchange in prior years; this is just a bit much.

        1. ...*

          I would just do it since it’ll be less headache and explaining yourself. If its not a big deal financially I would just go along to get along haha

    3. Shoe Ruiner*

      I’m also the only one who doesn’t want to do Secret Santa. What do I is offer to be the facilitator – the keeper of the secret list, in case anyone draws their own name, or whatever. I basically do no work but still look like a team player, and avoid awkward gift giving/receiving entirely.

      1. Parcae*

        Oh my gosh that is BRILLIANT. I am going to offer that right now. Even if they don’t take me up on it, it’s a win!

    4. JustMyImagination*

      If I had a coworker or report opt out of a social event, I wouldn’t make the leap to job-hunting. I would just think it wasn’t an event they were interested in.

    5. Jay*

      Ugh I feel you, I hate secret santa in any capacity. Every time I have participated I have spend time/energy/money getting a thoughtful or personalized gift and have received terrible things in return. At my last job the 4 admins did a secret santa among themselves and since there were so few of us I felt obligated to participate. I got my coworker a variety of things that she liked, candle, lotion, chocolate, chapstick, etc. What did I get? A pair of mens socks from the local drugstore that cost $1.99 with patterns of my state . I will never participate in another secret santa again and I don’t think it would be a problem for you to not either!

    6. Employee of the Bearimy*

      Ugh, it SUCKS when something is billed as optional but really isn’t. I used to run the department Secret Snowflake (changed from Secret Santa to be more inclusive) and made it really 100% optional. Those of us who did it had fun and everyone else was happy to not be bothered by it.

      1. Parcae*

        Silver linings: our Secret Santa has a more inclusive name too, which I omitted in a vague gesture toward anonymity. :)

        I suspect my officemates really did mean optional at the beginning, but when they had 9 of 10 sign up, they panicked.

  59. Argh!*

    After years of feeling unappreciated and unfairly denigrated I have finally been demoted. I am happy to still have a job, but I am no longer a manager. I will now report to a colleague who has learned how to be a manager from my toxic boss. I’m not hopeful. Toxic boss will pressure my next boss to do all the same denigrating, insulting, and demoralizing things that she did to me herself, and the new boss is a total people pleaser. My problem supervisee will become someone else’s problem now, and the interference my boss imposed on my supervision will also be someone else’s problem. Everything I did to try to engage this supervisee was undercut by my boss. I want to see her go after this person again. You can only demoralize so many people before Grandboss realizes that Argh! was not the problem employee after all.

    So… at least I have a good “official” reason to be looking for a new job now — my role changed thanks to reorganization and I want to stay in management. vs. the previously true reason: my boss is the most inept supervisor I have ever had and working for her has been damaging to my health.

    I threw out a bunch of stuff yesterday and it felt so good…. especially since it was stuff my boss wanted me to keep for years despite it having no value (I suspect boss is a hoarder).

    It’s Friday and it’s lunch time and I’m going to celebrate by taking an extra 10 minutes to go to a better place than I usually go to. What’s she going to do about it? Demote me?

    Argh! is my handle for a reason!

  60. Disaster Recovery*

    I’m stressed about a situation and I don’t know if I need advice, sympathy, or both. I am single and own an older home. About a month ago, I had a major failure in my plumbing that flooded my basement bathroom. The plumbing company came and a mitigation company came, and we’ve been slowly putting things back together. However, it is taking a really long time and I’ve been missing a lot of work. Fixing the initial plumbing issue took time, there were delays with the homeowner’s insurance, and now they’ve found another thing that is hopefully getting fixed today. It could still be at least another week or so before everything is finally repaired.
    My manager is very sympathetic, but I feel ridiculous for missing this much time for a home-related issue. It’s not like an illness or something like that. I’m hourly, and because of the nature of my job I can’t work from home. I’ve been rapidly using up my vacation time, which adds to the stress of dealing with so many appointments and taking on a lot of new debt to pay for the repairs. I also have had a really erratic schedule based on when people can be in my home (not to mention wasted time when contractors are much later than they said they would be –ugh!)
    Anyway, this whole thing has been massively stressful and I feel bad for being such an unreliable employee for the last month. I’ve been in my current position for six years and feel like I had a great reputation for being dependable and on top of things. Now I’ve gotten behind on several projects, I’m never quite sure when I’m going to be in, and I just feel stressed by home situation and unable to really focus on work. Has anyone gone through something like this before? I know it will eventually get resolved, but I’m not feeling it today.

    1. Alice*

      You have a six-year long reputation for being dependable and on top of things. That hasn’t disappeared! I bet that, if people think of it at all, they think — “wow, I really rely on Disaster Recovery a lot! I will be happy when she’s back to her normal self. Such a pity she has to deal with this disaster for now.”

    2. OtterB*

      Sounds like you’re almost done (and I’m with Alice that this doesn’t torpedo your track record) and hopefully it won’t happen again, but for others who might be in a similar situation – if it doesn’t have to be you personally, just someone to let the workers in, you might be able to hire someone short term to be at your house.

    3. WellRed*

      I think fire and plumbing issues are two things that most people understand can be difficult, expensive and time consuming.

  61. EnfysNest*

    What’s the “preferred” email domain to use when job searching? I currently use a Yahoo account as my default, but I’ve seen that one disparaged a bit in comments here before and now I’m feeling a little worried about it. For the record, I’m 29, and I’ve only been using the Yahoo email for a few years – I just like the app interface for Yahoo well enough and started using that one as my default address when I moved and lost the email that was connected to my old internet provider. I do have a Gmail account as well, but that’s the one I use to sign up for all the online stuff that requires an email and creates lots of spam, so I mostly never check it and I don’t want to mess with trying to sort out two email addresses through the same app – I’d rather just have one address per provider.

    If my Yahoo account is going to make people look poorly on me for some reason, I’ll set up a new address just for job searching, but I don’t even know what would be considered the “best”. So, what email provider is viewed as the most “professional”? If it matters, I have an engineering degree and will be looking for jobs in design and/or project management type positions.

    1. Argh!*

      I use Yahoo too, and I have had responses, and I was using it when I applied to my current job.

      But if you set up a domain name, I can see how that could be cool. Your post made me think of possible domain names for myself: Argh@mostawesomeemployeeever.com perhaps?

    2. AndersonDarling*

      Yahoo is fine. If you were using an @aol then I may roll my eyes, but I’d still invite you in for an interview if you were qualified. With all the automated hiring software, many requiters don’t even see your email address.

    5. Me*

      It’s not the domain that makes people cringe.

      It’s the username. Ensure it completely professional like a version of your name. Nothing cutesy, nothing gross, nothing vulgar, nothing controversial.

    6. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I still use my Yahoo email predominantly, despite having a Gmail.

      The reason is, when I signed up for the Yahoo email, I was able to get JaneQDoe at yahoo dot com. Whereas when I signed up for Gmail, I got DoeJaneQ at Gmail.com. So the Yahoo address is easier to remember and type and pair with my name.

    7. ten-four*

      I’m in tech, we would notice. It wouldn’t knock you out of the running, but it would be noted as a :/

      My vote would be to set up a gmail account for jobs just so I’d never have to think about it again, but your industry may vary!

    8. Ella*

      If you do set up a new account, one option would be to have it forward to your yahoo account. So you still get the interface you prefer, but get a different outward facing email.
      I would probably think you were behind the times a tiny bit, but it wouldn’t affect whether or not you got the job. I think gmail reads younger/more current.

    10. Gumby*

      Gmail actually does a fairly good job of shunting spam to the spam folder and advertisements to the promotions tab so it might not be the nightmare you anticipate.

  62. DaniCalifornia*

    Giving my 3 weeks notice next week without another job lined up. It’s so terrible here that this has been in the works for awhile. Then I go on a beach vacation to detox from this nightmare, come back for the holidays and then my recruiter says I can temp for her agency in the new year. I’m glad to hopefully have that as going down to 1 income is anxiety inducing but we’ll be okay. We are practicing with No Spend November though so that’s useful!

    I am stressing over telling my boss, like how the actual conversation will take place. I’m so over everything that I’m telling them I’m leaving to focus more on school (which they know I’m in.) instead of how bad this place actually is. I think he’ll be shocked, and my supervisor will be too, plus passive aggressive angry. I’m taking this weekend to prepare for it. Saying the words out loud, anticipating him being upset but quiet. Anticipating coworkers not being able to hide their frustrations. Getting my files off my computer and being ready if he asks me to leave earlier. On one hand it’s “bad timing” because a coworker is out for surgery, and we are having a new hire (not to replace anyone) start next month and I’d be expected to train them. But on the other hand, they just finished the new hire process and had a lot of overqualified candidates that they could reach back out to if they decide to replace my position. It’s our extremely quiet time where we do housekeeping before a busy tax season, so they have 6+ weeks to find someone before Jan.

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      I’m sorry you’re stressing out about this, but you clearly have a plan and you know what to do. When all is said and done, and your last day rolls around, please check back in with us to let us know how you handled the announcement, and how your notice period went. And good luck going forward.

    2. Boom*

      I can relate. I just went through this and my boss took me leaving very personally. However, his behavior only solidified that I made the right choice. So, I would think about it that way. Go into it positive and well-prepped on what you want to say, but if he goes ballistic, just remain calm and take it as a sign that you’re making the right choice.

  63. Pertinent Information on Resume??*

    Hi All…I’m updating my resume to move on from current employer but I’m a bit at a loss if I should include a particular non-field related experience I have on my resume.

    Details: after hours when I’m not drawing up Teapot schematics, I run a martial arts dojo. As in I’m the instructor, the administrator, confidante, guidance counselor, leader, lesson planner, money handler, etc., and this is all done under our martial arts non-profit umbrella.

    I’m trying to move into a more senior level, but my current role doesn’t reflect this very well. When I get asked if I have experience, I have tried to bring up the fact that I run a dojo and have smacked into a couple of walls of weird logic. One interviewer flat out advised since it was an “extra curricular” that it didn’t bring weight to the role I was going for (one level higher than my current one) and the other recurring one is the interview saw me being a Sensei would pull away from my M-F life and wouldn’t be a good fit (no travel was required for this role I applied for).

    I was pretty much “nah’ed” into silence and now am questioning if I should try and include this on my resume somehow, or just keep this a secret on what I can bring to the table?

    1. Jamie*

      I think it absolutely belongs on your resume as it showcases very transferable skills, including soft skills which can be tough to illustrate. I would make sure the verbiage was all professional skills (no confidante, etc.) but I think it’s a valuable add in your circumstance.

    2. Hemlock3630*

      Most definitely it belongs on your resume!
      Word what you do as if it was work for a ‘professional’ job.
      Heck, during my job search for my first industry jobs, I mentioned my cashiering job at a grocery store (I had been there 9 years). Allowed me to mention ‘problem solving skill, staying calm under pressure, attention to detail, customer service and satisfaction, and conflict management’.

    3. LilySparrow*

      So you manage a nonprofit program? That sounds extremely resume-worthy. The content of the program is secondary.

    4. Darren*

      The key difference with this comes down to assessment of performance.

      When you work for a company you’ve got a manager that assesses your performance, gives feedback on what you need to improve on, etc.

      Likely you have none of this in your dojo role. You could have terrible management skills and still manage to squeak by running the place and they wouldn’t be able to tell.

      Now if you had a story of how you took a single martial arts dojo and built it into a franchise network of dojo’s across several cities/states/etc that is something they can see and assess.

      You are going to want to focus on measurable achievements that you can demonstrate from your experience running the dojo.

  64. AndersonDarling*

    On a happy note… I have a newer job that is in an industry adjacent to my old job. I have a good idea of the processes but the terminology has been throwing me for a loop. Almost every day I have to ask someone what something stands for, what a generic term exactly means, or how this relates to that, and other things that I’m embarrassed to ask because it is so basic to people who work here.
    But everyone has been so kind about it and not judgmental. I had to send an email today asking something along the lines of “What do you mean by PB?” And the sender stopped by to show me the PB info and what exactly it means.
    I hear so many stories about jerks in the workplace that I wanted to share and balance things out.

    1. ..Kat..*

      I’m glad your new coworkers are kind. Have you considered rewarding them by creating a document with this information for the next new person?

  65. glitterdome*

    Okay, I need y’all to help me off the wall on something. The department I work closely with (but am not in) has recently hired a couple new people who seem to be working out well enough, some adjusting is going on and I have heard whispers about some mild frustration with one of them. Well this particular person has a habit which grates on my last nerve. She has a habit of calling a sort of director and up in our organization “Mr./Mrs. First name”. This is not our culture. At All. I work the most senior people in the organization and we don’t even do this with them. It’s just strictly first names with everyone. It’s in emails, appointments, everything! It annoys me soo much. How do I get over this??!! Any suggestions?

    1. time for tea*

      Sometimes this is just cultural for the person. They might adjust their address in the future, they might not. You do, however, have standing if they’re addressing *you* in a way you don’t want. In which case, you can say “please don’t call me Mr/Mrs glitterdome”, it’s just “glitterdome”, and absolutely repeat that until it sticks.

      1. glitterdome*

        The weird thing is she doesn’t do it with everyone, only those that she sees as senior to her (which is a lot). I’ve just had a few of those people ask me about it as well.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      Sometimes a new person needs to be told what the office culture is; sometimes they learn on their own. Here’s hoping she’ll learn soon.

  66. Jan Levinson*

    We had an employee get let go a few months ago (she was a poor performer with a bad attitude). Anyway, this lady wore WAY too much perfume. I’m talking, so could smell it in the bathroom and breakroom HOURS after she’d been in there. When she left, I thought, great, no more excessive perfume. Nope. We got a new employee a couple of weeks ago who ALSO reeks of perfume (honestly, not quite as much quantity wise as the previous employee, but definitely more of a cheap smell). I don’t get how no one has told either of these women before that they REALLYYY need to tone donw on the perfume. Sigh. I don’t actually have a question, lol.

    1. DaniCalifornia*

      Yikes that can be so awful if you have any kind of allergies, a sensitive nose, or heck just a nose at all!

      Are you in any position to let them know it’s bothering you?

      1. Jan Levinson*

        I don’t know! She’s a peer, and neither of us manage the other one. She is in a position though where she’ll eventually be out of the office anywhere from 50-80% of the time once she’s fully trained (right now, she’s in the office all the time), so if I can just get through her training period, I won’t have to smell it nearly as often in the future!

        1. Wishing You Well*

          She’s probably nose-blind to her own perfume. You could practice your assertiveness by mentioning it’s bothering you and is there any chance she could reduce her usage. I hope you speak up, even if it’s in the gentlest possible way.

        2. ..Kat..*

          Alison has some excellent posts on asking a coworker not to wear perfume. I recommend “not wearing perfume “ as opposed to “wearing less.” Most people are bad at wearing less.

          Good luck.

  67. strudel*

    So, I was browsing job listings at a company, and one posting asks applicants to apply via regular snail mail, rather than through the online ATS. None of the other job posts ask applicants to do this. Would there be a reason that the company would want people to apply by mail for certain positions and not others? Or is it just a weird mistake?

    1. WellRed*

      Are the applications going to someone who might prefer snail mail or are they all sent to the same place?

      1. strudel*

        The mailing address is the HR dept at company headquarters, so I’m assuming they’re going to the same place as the online apps.

    2. cmcinnyc*

      In part of my job I apply for grants, and I recently had to send a self-addressed stamped envelope via snail mail to the funder requesting a specific application, which will be mailed back to me in said envelope. Yes, in 2019. On the FAQ page of their website they list about 20 questions related to why this process and the answer, over and over, is a variation on “Because.” As far as I can glean reading between the lines, they have a relatively small staff and making people jump through this hoop cuts down the applications dramatically. These are small grants, so I guess enough people figure, eh, for a few thou I’m not bothering. Don’t know if that’s the case with this job, but I imagine it works to limit the pool! I’m *not* sure limiting the pool is the win these people seem to think it is!

      1. strudel*

        Oh my gosh. What a way to leverage bureaucracy, lol.

        This is a hard to fill role, though, so I don’t think it’s to limit the applicant pool.

  68. Buggy Crispino*

    I’ve recently been reassigned to a new sub-department within my company. Nothing really changed other than the reporting structure, so it’s basically transparent to me. Except for the fact that my new “work family” (their words, not mine!) seems to do everything together. Lunches 2-3 times a week, after work gatherings, weekend meet ups, and with the holiday coming up lots of potlucks and Christmas activities including Secret Santa. None of this is my thing. I’ve tried participating in just a few things here and there but with the extreme frequency that they do things together even accepting 1 invite every week or every other week, I’m turning down probably 75% of the things they want to do. It’s already exhausting me. The manager is a big player in this so going to him isn’t going to change anything and going to any other manager with a complaint about my coworkers being too friendly would just be ridiculous. Any ideas on how to not be thought of as the grump that doesn’t ever want to do anything?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Maybe a combination of:

      1) Be warm and collegial when in the office and on outings you do join

      2) Talk about your other commitments/plans in small talk, to show that you aren’t shunning them just to shun them (even if you are). E.g.

      “Oh, my book club is reading this great book, which I like because [insert short tidbit]. Have you all read any good books lately?”

      “My swimming competition is coming up, so I’m training hard! How is [your hobby/sport/outside activity] going?”

      “My [friends/family/in-laws] are coming to visit. We have so much planned! Visitors are great, but exhausting, don’t you think?”

  69. Sharkie*

    I got thrown under the bus this week by my boss- even though I have all the paperwork in order. The Client is pissed and my boss called me an idiot. 6 more weeks until the restructure and he won’t be my boss. Any ideas to get through this?

    1. time for tea*

      Job hunt. Even if nothing happens, it’ll be a distraction from the count down until the boss goes away. Plus, having a restructure is a great excuse for looking for new opportunities elsewhere.

    2. DaniCalifornia*

      I feel you. That happened to me approximately 6 weeks ago and I am giving my notice next week. Supervisor did the same to our boss and it was the straw that broke the camel’s back after a year of terribleness. Repeat your mantras! It will soon be “not my circus, not my monkeys” Keep a countdown app on your phone for that day. Promise yourself you’ll take yourself out for a nice dinner or treat after it’s all over. You can do it. I’ve made it 5.5 weeks so you will too!

  70. Chronic Overthinker*

    So, uh, I have a weird situation. I wonder if I should have pushed back harder at my ExJob. I dealt with some pretty intense bullying from co-workers. But, here’s the thing, the way I found out they were gossiping about me is through the private chat channel they had on their computers. I happened to glance at it after hours and I was floored. There were comments on how sloppy they thought my handwriting was to some specifics about the job and everything in between. Also, they were using social media memes to make fun of me as well. I knew d*mn well they were targeting me as they tagged everyone in the team, minus me. I was let go due to poor performance, but the bullying definitely factored into it as any time I asked the team for help, I was made to feel stupid for not knowing things that I was barely trained on. So I often just tried doing things on my own and repeatedly made mistakes. It was a chaotic office and had an awful culture and was the main reason I had Imposter Syndrome at my current job as I just lost all confidence in my abilities.

    Thankfully I have gotten over the hump at new job and am doing well. I’m glad a took a step back and have a much more relaxed work schedule (in comparison to ExJob) and the staff/boss have a much better culture than ExJob. I know there’s not much I can do regarding ExJob, but I wonder if I should mention it to someone so that anyone new doesn’t fall into the same trap or situation. Or should I just chalk it up to lesson learned?

    1. Alice*

      Sadly I don’t think there’s any way to mention it to ExJob without it seeming like sour grapes.
      I’ll note that, with a culture like you describe, there seem to be a lot of management failures. They should be able to figure out that there is a problem here, even without the detail you could provide about this bullying. If they aren’t addressing this rotten culture based on what they definitely know, why do we think they’d address the bullying if you followed up with them about that?
      My take would be different if you still worked there. But then again, if you still worked there, my number one advice would be — try and move on to a different job! Which you have done, and it sounds like it’s a great environment. So, bravo! And don’t feel guilty about not being able to thrive in ExJob’s culture, and don’t feel guilty about not being able to fix ExJob’s culture.

      1. valentine*

        You can’t save the new people and no one there deserves your efforts. Truly let it go and focus on what you have. Make a list of good things to turn to whenever you start to get down about ExJob.

  71. padge*

    do i dare bring up bad glassdoor reviews in an interview? i was recommended a position at a company by a trusted friend and coworker who worked there for a while a couple years ago. the pay is literally double what i make now, better benefits, and just as close to my home as my current position, so i’d really enjoy this should i get it. however i saw handful of negative reviews that were pretty recent on the glassdoor. i understand it could be some disgruntled employees, but as someone who intends on leaving an honest (see: negative) review of my current company when i leave, is it worth bringing up at all? i don’t want to be duped into the same toxic work environment as i have been already. for what it’s worth, my friend said the job could be tough, but nothing out of the ordinary.

    1. Hemlock3630*

      I wouldn’t bring up the glassdoor reviews, especially in an interview. Ask leading questions based on some of the feedback from the negative reviews….like if reviewers leave feedback about lack of work life balance, don’t say “So, I see from some recent reviews of your company from former employees there’s a lack of work life balance at this company.” instead ask something like “What are company policies regarding flexible work schedules, comp time, taking time off?”

    2. Chili*

      I personally wouldn’t directly bring the reviews up in an interview because the interviewer probably won’t give you a real, satisfactory answer and it risks souring the tone of your interview. I would look at the reviews and see if there are any common themes and ask about those topics. For example, if the reviews say employees are overworked, ask what the expected hours and workload would be. I would also circle back to your coworker who recommended the job and ask for their feedback about why they left, what direction the company was taking, and if they know anyone who is still working there (or left recently) that would speak with you.

      It’s tempting to straight up ask what’s up with Glassdoor in the interview, but if the work environment is toxic, you’re probably not going to hear that from the interviewer.

    3. Legally a Vacuum*

      I directly asked about Glassdoor reviews during an interview- but it was clear they were trying to sell me on the company. I also was speaking to the peer interview, not the hiring manager. I think it really depends on your feel during the interview.

      Note- I’m glad I asked- the company has terrible glass door reviews, but the department I’m in is shielded from a lot of the reasons for the negative reviews.

  72. So anon today*

    The feedback and suicide letter was timely this week. I just have no place to tell this terrible story. Not seeking any advice, just have to get this off my mind anonymously.

    My husband works closely with a woman who has been going through an amicable divorce. She’s been dating a man going through a very nasty divorce. Neither divorce is final. He’s apparently been unfaithful to his wife in the past, but I do not know if he was unfaithful with the woman my husband works with. Both of them have children, his are young adults. One of his adult children (20) committed suicide last Tuesday. The son left a suicide note naming the divorce and his father’s infidelities as one of the main reasons for his suicide. The son’s mother is obviously in pain and has posted at length about the suicide, situation surrounding it, the letter, the affairs and the woman my husband works closely with. It’s ugly. We live in a small town and I won’t speak about this to anyone, sides are being taken and lines drawn. Friendships are being lost. So that’s why I’m posting here. I can’t imagine the pain any of them are in, and it seems like such a bad situation for all.

    1. Four lights*

      It is a had situation. Just wanted to let you know someone’s reading this and is offering sympathy.

    3. Anon Here*

      This is why I don’t date people who are legally married. Even if they’ve been separated for years and/or seeking a divorce, you don’t really know what’s going on there and how it’s affecting other people, especially their kids.

    4. Clever Name*

      Oh my god. That is so awful. What a tragedy for everyone involved, and I bet it’s hard to Just be on the sidelines

  73. BlueBeard*

    Can anyone help me find an earlier post about managing an employee who wants a promotion but a role isn’t available? From what I remember it was written by an HR manager and the employee was referred to as a ‘he’ if that helps jog any memories.

    I’ve found several about employees who thought their skills deserved promotions when they really didn’t, but this one focused on the conversation on no room or possibility for advancement. I thought it was published earlier this year but can’t find it in the archives. Hoping the regular readers can help point me in the right direction as I’m getting ready to have this conversation with an employee now.

    1. WellRed*

      Hmm, there was one about an … engineer rockstar who was underpaid and I think couldn’t get promoted? The OP had to be honest with him that he should move on from the company.

      1. Iron Chef Boyardee*

        I don’t know if that’s the post BlueBeard is thinking of, but are you referring to the one where the rockstar’s name is Tom?

    3. What was I doing SQUIRREL!*

      Are you thinking of the 4 September letter “I now manage the guy who hired me — and I’m afraid he might quit over it” ?

  74. Once and future librarian*

    Part rant, part question
    I hate the academic life cycle for hiring! It’s take almost half a year at one point for a university to get back to me about a job application; Some applications I’ve applied to still show as active years afterwards. I just want to work as a university librarian and I’ve been barely able to get my foot in the door since I’d graduated over 6 years ago.

    Question for those in academia: how long does your hiring cycle take for non-staff in public institutions? I know you have things you can’t say about where you are in the hiring process but why not let candidates know (especially if it takes months)? What do you wish your institution did better?

    1. Alice*

      No experience at public universities, but in academia in general — super super long. I can’t figure out why. I’ve seen one hiring process in academia that started in 2017 and still isn’t finished. Probably because we are all so worried about covering the responsibilities of the people who are missing that we don’t have time to do the hiring process at any reasonable speed, and so by the time we decide to offer a job to someone, that desirable candidate has already accepted a job somewhere else and we have to start from the beginning. Good luck!

    2. Blueberry Girl*

      Okay, so I’ve been on both sides of this. And here’s my stance: You notify people when something unusual happens in the hiring cycle- an unexpected delay or a closure of the position with no hire. In higher ed, the cycle takes 3 to 6 months. That’s normal. Why notify people that it is going to take that long, when that’s how long it takes? I agree that every candidate should be notified in the end, but the end might be 6 months off. Additionally, if a job still shows Open after 2 years, chances are there’s been more than one failed search and/or someone in HR forgot to change the online tracking system settings.

      When you have a committee of busy people who are reviewing sometimes hundreds of applications (one committee I was on we had 97 qualified applicants for one job), it takes time. I always try to get back to people, once we have hired, but most schools don’t “close the pool” and allow notification until after all of the interviews and hiring is completed. Additionally, even once you have hired someone, it is not official until the trustees approve the hire. UIUC got sued over this once. So, you have to wait until the next trustee meeting to formally hire your pick and only then, once they have signed the paperwork, can you notify the remaining folks. Trustees meet 4 to 6 times a year. So, if you hire in the off cycle of the trustee meetings, that adds a month or two.

      I don’t think higher education is any worse about notifying people than the private sector. It does take longer once you are in the process, but the notification rate I think is about the same.

    3. Present hiring comittee academic librarian*

      From both sides.
      My hiring over 8 years ago 8 months. That is not a typo. Application January. Radio silence. First contact and interview in May. Hiring Committee phone call interview June. On site two-day interview marathon including job talk, July. A written task, August, another phone interview a week later August. Job offer right before Labor Day.

      The other side.
      Coordinating 5 committee members schedules. Creating the position rubric. Plowing through piles of CVs. Scheduling interviews. We are on month 3 and haven’t spoken to a candidate yet. We aren’t permitted to notify anyone at this point except to contact the applicants who are definitely not in the running.

  75. Sobriquet: Schaatzi*

    Do you work from home AND does your partner also work from home?

    While I’m unemployed, I consider my professional education/volunteering as ‘work from home’ for the purpose of keeping in the mindset until I find a job. My husband, who normally works in an office, will start working from home next week. The last time he worked remote, he had to go to the library because of the t.v. and dogs which are a detriment to his focus. He says that he’ll probably spend more time at his sites in the local area rather than at home (let’s hope).

    Any thoughts on how to maintain separation and co-exist? We have a bedroom-turned-office that he’ll work in and I work in the kitchen.

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      When Mr. Glomarization and I are working together at home, one or both of us often wear headphones if we can’t or don’t want to work on different levels in the house. Additionally, we’re both allowed to say “sorry, can’t talk, in a groove” with no hard feelings any time during the day.

      Also we’ve negotiated — or, at least, we’ve fallen into — a schedule where the TV in the livingroom goes on at about 5:30 or 6:00 for news, and the onus to go upstairs (small, 2-story house) falls on whoever doesn’t want to be interrupted, but again no hard feelings.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Does the TV have to be on? I work from home full-time, and when my partner also works from home, I “watch” whatever I want on my phone with headphones. The background noise helps me concentrate but he hates it. I also make sure I close the door to the office. The separate spaces are the most important thing, I think. But we do go out for lunch together and walk the dog together when we’re both home.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I was in this situation for a few months (while unemployed myself) until my husband got a new job that required going to an office.

      The main thing that worked for us was having completely different work spaces, which it sounds like you do. He already had everything set up in the main home office because his then-job was fully remote and his kind of work requires extended concentration, so I worked in the kitchen or our bedroom, depending on what I was doing. We also used headphones for our audio stuff even if the other wasn’t within earshot so the house itself was quiet. But the main thing is just having separate spaces.

  76. Hemlock3630*

    Good morning!
    I’m a mid-level supervisor, and someone I hired recently got a position at my same level. Our job descriptions are essentially the same, just with different areas/programs we are responsible for. I use the title that was the job title during the hiring process (XX Supervisor)…..which is the same job title as the new Supervisor. He’s been billing himself as XX Program Manager. (If I went that route, I could be calling myself XX, XX and XX Program Manager)
    Now, I also have a subordinate that has taken on major responsibility for a particle program under my watch, he decided yesterday to have the website updated (fine, needed to update the contact information for that program from me to him since he’s in the day to day weeds with it) and has his title put up as ‘XX Program Manager’.
    I’m not usually angsty about this sort of stuff…..but here we have a person below me calling himself a Program Manager, and someone at my level calling himself a Program Manager (where as my direct boss is Section Manager)….while my title is just generic Supervisor (no reference to the programs I am responsible for).

    So question…..how do I start the conversation with my boss about titles and standardizing them?

    2. ten-four*

      Standardizing titles is a big deal, because they matter to people and are therefore a tool of management to acknowledge and reward growth and performance. Ask that your title be updated to reflect your role, and you propose X. And then once you’ve got your title wrangled, THEN suggest standardization.

    3. Mockingjay*

      Is there an org chart which defines the team hierarchy, accompanied by role descriptions? Also, is it the job title that’s important or the role each of you perform?

      I find charts more explanatory than job titles. In terms of job titles, I out rank my supervisor (I’m senior, she’s mid-level). Per the org chart, she holds a team lead role in the overall program, while I am assigned to a special project within it. The job title is what we were hired as; the role is what we actually do.

      Map out who does what as a starting point; then go over areas of confusion with the boss.

  77. Low Stakes PITA Q*

    I am having a ridiculous time with a decision that should be low-stakes and is itself rather ridiculous – like a “first world problem”, work edition.

    In January I’m travelling with my married bosses to Madrid, and they are staying in a 5 star hotel they chose. I’m not flying the same days as they are, though we’re all going mainly for the same meeting, and they have agreed I can have a day or two either side of the meeting, for time acclimation (and a little vacation-type activity). We have an office in the city, which is where the meeting will be held. I asked one boss if he cared where I stayed, and he LITERALLY said “it is up to you”. He seriously doesn’t care about the cost, or that I’m anywhere near them.

    SO – do I book the same hotel as they did, for ease of getting to/from this meeting? I feel weird booking something at the price point they are (there’s no policy against it, weirdly enough). I could reach out to the local office and ask for hotels near there. Or I could look for a hotel near the tourist type stuff I want to see. (Side note – cabs aren’t an issue in the city, I’m assuming. And I’m also assuming everywhere will take a corporate Amex, or I have other issues.)

    I am having a ridiculously hard time deciding what to do for the hotel!! It’s such a silly problem to have, really, but I can’t stop waffling. Anyone care to chime in with their opinion? Help me make up my mind!

    1. Hemlock3630*

      I usually go for close to what I want to do (like sight seeing and eateries) AND take price into consideration. If you’re being reimbursed by the company, it at least shows financial restraint. So pick something where you want to be, but within your comfortable price point.

      1. valentine*

        Book the same hotel so you’re in the same boat. You don’t want to be elsewhere and delayed if, say, a demonstration affects traffic.

    2. time for tea*

      If there’s really no policy at all about this, I’d book the expensive place. And maybe verify that the company will also pay those days, too. My job has a really strict policy on which hotels we can book for travel, and if we wanna stay extra days, we pay those days/some people switch to other hotels. If your employer is more lenient, I’d go with it and take the opportunity.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      I would ask the local office if you should stay at the same place as boss (if they are providing transportation this could make it easier for them), or if there is a hotel they usually use. Take your cue from them.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      The way it works at my company is, you are allowed and encouraged to stay with the group particularly for international travel, even if the hotel is out of the usual price bands approved by the company. So, since you didn’t get different guidance from your bosses, booking the expensive place makes sense for the days your bosses will also be there.

      However, our policy is if you add on personal time, you pay those costs. There may be some gray area around arriving the day before to give yourself some time to adjust, but extra days that are entirely non-work would be considered personal time. It’s unclear from your post whether they are okay with you just taking the extra days (e.g. you are approved for the vacation time) or also saying the company would cover your extra days. So, if you are responsible for paying for the extra nights at the hotel, definitely take that into consideration.

    5. Ron McDon*

      With regard to Amex, it’s not as widely accepted in Europe – I live in the UK and just this week I had to use an alternative card 4 times as shops/restaurants didn’t take Amex.

      My understanding is that Amex charge outlets a higher processing fee than, say, Visa, so it’s less widely accepted over here. Worth looking into, and ask your bosses about reimbursement if you have to use your own card at the hotel etc.

  78. rageismycaffeine*

    This week I will have to talk to one of my employees about referring to the all-female staff of my male boss as his “harem.”

    Sigh.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Ewwwww

      I don’t envy you having that talk, but I’m so glad you’re going to do it!

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        I don’t envy me either. We have a pretty loose, jocular department, and jokes and ribbing are not uncommon, but this one definitely crosses a line. My boss is kind of uncomfortable with it, and I definitely don’t like the sexist overtones.

      1. matcha123*

        I’ve been referred to as part of someone’s harem at work before and I literally did not care. While you obviously do not and don’t want the person to say that, I don’t think it’s ‘ew’ or ‘cringe’ or whatever. I am also female.

        1. rageismycaffeine*

          I guess my thinking in clarifying this was that it could be different kinds of gross if a male employee is referring to a “harem” than a female employee doing so (as a member of said “harem” herself).

          I think the most important thing here is that my boss – the man who is being said to have the “harem” – and me – a member of said “harem” – are both uncomfortable with it. If anyone doesn’t like it, that’s the end of the joke. But I appreciate that not everyone would feel that way – obviously the person making the joke is fine with it since she’s included in it. :)

        2. Fikly*

          One member of a minority or the discriminated group being ok with something does not actually make it ok.

        3. Mercy Buckets*

          You being OK with sexism doesn’t make sexism OK.

          You’re just not that important, sorry!

      2. Nessun*

        Oh dear… I’ve never had to wonder before, what the appropriate word is to illustrate a full body shudder. *eeeuuughaugh*

        1. rageismycaffeine*

          Yeah, sorry, it was not clear. My boss, Michael, is male. Everyone in his department – his direct reports, and their direct reports – is female. It is my female direct report, Pam, who is joking that all of the women in the department are Michael’s harem.

          Hope that clears it up.

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          It sounds like the person saying this is a staff member, not the boss.

          I used to work on a 15-person team. 14 women and 1 man, the boss. His “ladies” or his “harem” would NOT have flown, and no thank you, I am not interested in being referred to as anything that implies I was his property, or eye candy, or a sexual servant, or anything like that. So you have my sympathies. I have a pretty loose sense of humor and not a lot offends me, but that’s not a cool thing to say.

    3. LAX-LHR*

      Argh. My poor dad had that when he managed an all-women team, and had the hardest time trying to explain why it was Not Okay for the team to refer to themselves that way. My mum thought it was hilarious, though.

    4. ..Kat..*

      I think this is writeup inappropriate behavior, not talk to inappropriate behavior.

      Good luck either way.

      1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        Assuming the employee hasn’t already had behavior problems, I’d leave it at the talking to level. I can see how she might have felt it was just a joke — even some of the folks here seem to agree. This isn’t a molehill, but it’s not a mountain either.

  79. A ninny mouse*

    So I had a private talk with my colleague Archie. He shared his salary and (confidentially) the salary of Veronica (cause Archie and Veronica had swapped numbers in a previous conversation). Archie is one level below me (but due for a promotion), Veronica and I are at the same level. I am being paid significantly less than both of them. We all have similar levels of experience, and whatever differences are there do not explain a 20K gap,

    I’m due for my end of year performance review, and am wondering how best to bring this up. I am confident in the knowledge I am underpaid, but I don’t want to ‘rat out’ Archie for ‘snitching’ on salary (everyone knows Archie and I are friends – if I say I am being paid less than juniors in the same organization, people can easily guess how I know that). But I also don’t want to be gaslit when I say I am underpaid. Does anyone have any advice on how to tackle this?

    1. Daisy*

      Is there any way you can bring it up as if you’ve done general market research? That way you’re just saying, “I know I’m being paid less than market rate,” which they also k know is true because they’re paying two other people substantially more.

    2. I'm no Rod Tidwell*

      You can only make the case with valid market comparisons. You have to do an in-depth analysis of your work, requirements, duties and present the case that 1) you’re underpaid for the market and 2) underpaid for your responsibilities and 3) your work results in significant contributions to the company and warrants a salary increase.

      Using your co-workers as a baseline is not effective. “whatever differences are there do not explain a 20K gap” There are reasons: they may have negotiated for the salary; they were preferenced in some way; there was a different salary application at the time of their hire; HR did their own assessment and came up with those numbers; there’s bias.

      Talking about salary, with coworkers, has its pros and cons. Pros is that it can help you realize that you might be underpaid and need to reassess your value. Cons – you believe you should be paid the same or more as your coworkers but each hire/employee is different (unless you’re in government).

      1. TCO*

        But it’s not okay to say that someone is being seriously underpaid just because someone else “negotiated better.” A company has a responsibility to set pay rates and regularly affirm that all employees are being paid equitably, not just give more money to someone who asks.

        1. I'm no Rod Tidwell*

          It’s no ok? According to who? That’s the reality. I was hired at a $40k role, tried to negotiate for more based on experienced and was denied. The person who came after me negotiated for more and received it. Why considering we had equitable resumes and experiences? She was a better negotiator? Did someone like her more? She was prettier? Who knows but there it was.

          Every job, aside from the government, allows for negotiating but that doesn’t mean you’ll get it. Many companies opt for a flat rate in which they don’t budge and some operate with a band within which they’ll offer based on experience and from which the candidate can negotiate. Always negotiate because you’ll always be offered the lowest pay possible.

          Companies have a responsibility to do a lot of things but they don’t. Company’s generally don’t work in the favor of the employee which is why the employee must take it into their own hands to validate their existence.

          “And regularly affirm that employees are paid equitably” Panacea at best yet most unlikely. They usually realize they’re underpaying when hiring for the newest person so they bring the new person on with the higher rate but not ‘re-affirming’ the pay equity of current employees. A convenient way to keep everyone on payroll.

          1. AvonLady Barksdale*

            Wait… no. If she negotiated and got more because “she was prettier”, then that is a HUGE problem. I realize you’re using this as an example, but here’s the thing: you negotiated too. Why didn’t you get more money? Forget about why she did get more. If you and she do the same role and have the same amount of experience and similar resumes, the differences between your salaries should not be substantial.

    3. ..Kat..*

      In the USA, it is legal for employees to discuss pay. It is illegal for companies (or managers) to suppress these conversations. Keep the focus on pay, not how you know.

      Please consider looking for a new job now that you know what your skills are worth.

      Good luck.

  80. Third or Nothing!*

    Whelp after 7 years in the professional world I have my very first networking call on Monday. This is the first time anyone has ever reached out to me for anything other than trying to sell me something. This lady is a marketing person for a company that does the same thing we do, but in a completely different area of the country. So AAM: what kinds of things can I expect from this conversation? I’ve made it clear I have no decision making authority in my company, so it’s not like she’s going to try to convince me that our companies need to partner together for something. Or at least she shouldn’t if she has any sense.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Could you ask the person to send you specific questions/topics that they would like to chat about? I would request that for any meeting and I think it’s fairly reasonable to ask, so you both come in knowing what the purpose of the call is.

  81. Daisy*

    Is anyone else in a “flat structure”? What does that really mean? It feels to me like an excuse to give an employee management responsibilities without any real authority or pay increase.

    1. time for tea*

      My only time in a flat structure was when we had ~30 employees. Once we got more, they put in another layer (which was good, we needed it). I don’t know how a flat structure can work when you’ve got lots of people.

    2. Someone Else*

      For us, it means there are no Middle Management positions, however, as the company has grown, they have slowly started adding layers into management and staff due to the increasing number of employees.

    3. akaDaisy*

      Flat structure here, for the last 9 years. Well, more to the point: we have a standard hierarchy in our sales branch (90% of employees), and super flat in operations (10% of employees). I have program/project/financial management responsibilities and pretty significant impact to our profitability, but no direct reports. Only VPs have direct reports on our operations side… Basically I have a manager title and director responsibilities, which makes my resume look a bit like a dumpster fire.

  82. MissBookworm*

    I feel like I’m just going to up and walk out one of these days.

    Does anyone’s company have really strict check request and check processing requirements?

    Had a “disagreement” with a coworker this morning (she ambushed me the minute I walked in) who just can’t seem to understand our processes and procedures surrounding checks. In all the years that I’ve been with this company we’ve had a noon on Tuesday and Thursday cutoff for checks. We only process checks on those two days—ACH’s and Wires we can do any day. If you hand me a check register at 12:15 on Thursday, I can sneak it in, but anytime after 12:30 and it’s absolutely not being done until Tuesday.

    We have a really complicated process for handling checks, plus we need two signers on all checks and only three people in the entire office are designated signers. One signer doesn’t work on Fridays and another (my boss) is on an emergency medical leave which leaves only one signer in on Fridays.

    Well, yesterday afternoon around 3pm one coworker from another department (who has been here longer than me) dropped a priority check request on my desk with a note that it needed to be done ASAP because a major discount would be lost if it wasn’t received by Monday. I was in a staff meeting with my entire department and didn’t see the request until 4:15pm when I got out. The signer who doesn’t work Fridays had already left for the day (he and I work the same hours 7:30am-4pm) so there was only one signer in until Monday. There was no way that check was getting done. As a sidenote, the request was printed at 9:30am so she had plenty of time to get it to me before the deadline.

    I sent her an email letting her know it couldn’t be done until Monday, at the earliest, because we only had one signer and she had missed the deadline. I also included a copy of our procedure for her to reference. This morning she was beyond angry.

    There’s really nothing I could have done differently. Our procedures are in place for a reason and I can’t do anything if there aren’t signers!

    1. Moonlight*

      Sometimes it’s got to hurt before people learn!

      If you start fudging rules around money, that’s when you open the door to intentional or accidental money disappearances.

      1. MissBookworm*

        Exactly! There was fraud (before my time here) that resulted in these procedures. She was here during all of that, so she knows why these steps exist. Looking back at my emails this is like the third time this year I’ve had this conversation with her.

    2. CTT*

      Can I ask what the reason is for processing checks for such a short period (if I’m understanding correctly, it sounds like ~4 hours two days a week)? I trust you that there’s is a reason, but from my outside perspective that seems restrictive compared to where I’ve worked. It might be helpful to send a reminder to the office about the procedures with an explanation of why the check system works this way and why it’s different from wires and ACH.

      1. MissBookworm*

        Part of the reason is due to federal regulations on the number of transfers you can do out of or into a savings account during the month (6). The accounts we have checks for are zero balance accounts, the funds we transfer in must match the checks that are being written. Without the set days for check runs, we were constantly going over that limit and the bank kept threatening to change the type of account (which the higher ups didn’t like), so they decided that check runs could only happen on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

        They added in the noon cutoff when people kept handing us check requests at the end of those days and expected us to process them right then and there even though it was 3;30pm and will take at least an hour start to finish. We have other responsibilities and priorities beyond check runs. If I was given a check request at 3pm and I’m working on another priority I can’t always stop and process the checks, but if they had given it to me at noon I would have had time to do the checks and the other priority. Also, we don’t just do one check run on Tuesday and one on Thursday—if someone gave me a check register on Wednesday and there was one on my desk when I came in on Thursday then I’m going to start processing those and I’ll do another check run later that day if necessary. We don’t get a lot of check requests (most of our clients and vendors prefer ACH)—I only had six this week, two on Tuesday and four on Thursday. Last week I had one check request.

        This has worked for years; it’s just this one coworker that consistently makes it a problem. My boss being out doesn’t help either since he’s one of the three signers and the one we can usually rely on to be in the office for check signing.

        1. tangerineRose*

          Can your boss talk to your co-worker and tell her:
          – she shouldn’t be taking her anger out on you since it was her own fault
          – there was nothing you could have done differently

    3. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Ah, yes, the joys of accounts payable! I feel your pain. Some people just don’t learn. Ever. No matter how much you tell them. Because they don’t want to learn or because they think they’re special or because you’ve found ways to make it work before and they assume you will this time.

      Keep solid notes on what happened, when, & why! Document, document, document! Because you know the story will be ‘MissBookworm caused us to miss the discount’ and not ‘Yeah, I ignored the process and we missed the discount, my bad.’ Assume the worst and that you’ll have to prove it wasn’t you.

      Then, let the pain flow. Let it cause problems. I know that’s the antithesis of how we think it should be, but letting people (and the business) suffer for their errors is the only way things will change. Either by the person finally learning or an issue coming up which their management structure cannot ignore. Had she missed cutoff by like 5 minutes, sure, be flexible. But hours? Nope, sorry, can’t help you.

      We’d had an increase of these kinds of requests here, though the worst offenders are gone. As in fired, when payments were missed and a payment of $XXX,XXX was missed because I cannot make a check for that amount just materialize on demand. There was some major fallout, but I had multiple email threads, notes on dates/times/parties involved of phone calls (and followed them up with emails) with details about check run dates and and how much lead time was needed for that kind of cash to be available. The idiots just ignored all of it and expected me to drop massive checks with 30 minutes notice. Ingrid Michaelson has the perfect song for this situation: Hell no!

      1. MissBookworm*

        The story of my life!

        My entire department has mastered the art of documenting everything; it has saved us (and our company) more times then I can count.

  83. Coffee Librarian*

    Office coffee makers: Is it reasonable for an office to have a Keurig-type coffee machine but have employees who want to use it be responsible for bringing their own coffee? I’m trying to figure out a solution to our lack of coffee maker and this is where my head is. The office can’t pay for the coffee, and I don’t think that a “pay $x when you have a cup” method will work. On the other hand, besides the environmental impact, K-cups seem relatively expensive, as coffee goes (am I right about this? I’ve never actually bought them). I don’t want to opt for a basic drip machine because the layout of our office would likely mean that we would have a lot of burnt coffee. Thanks for your input!

    2. Hemlock3630*

      Our office went to a Keurig. We have been talking about this same issue, does the company buy the pods? Ask people to pitch in (then you get the problem of people who use them who never pay), or just bring their own? The company supplied the first box, now people bring in their own (I went to a reuseable pod and ground coffee), we’re still talking about the ‘by honor donation jar’.

    3. TCO*

      I worked in an office that had a BYO k-cup practice and it worked for us (we also had a stash for “sale” that you could purchase by putting 50 cents into the honor box or whatnot). There are little reusable filters that make it possible to use regular coffee grounds in a Keurig, so that could be suggested for folks concerned about cost or waste. They were popular in my office.

    4. Kaffee und kuchen, bitte*

      That’s how my last workplace operated: I was the only person who drank coffee and I wasn’t put out having to bring my own coffee. I was put out when they didn’t want to replace the coffee maker because c’mon.. it’s work. I was about to bring my own maker but the boss finally bought one (the same day I did and the same brand).

      How the office can’t pay for coffee is a big ‘What?!’. C’mon .. the basics are coffee and water. So figure out how to get a $50/month for big box of pods and when it runs out, it’s up to everyone else to bring their own. Big brands stores offer 40 pod boxes for $30 or bring in a nice ground coffee. Show employees love!

      I have a Hamilton Beach FlexBrew that uses pods and has a holder for grounds. The holder is really good and grounds don’t get all over the place EXCEPT it requires cleaning out and if the previous person doesn’t do it then things messy (and sometimes emptying it is messy). The grounds could be composted, too, for the gardeners in the office.

      2. CheeryO*

        Might be a government office? Free anything is a no-no. We just have a basic drip coffee maker, and one person is in charge of collecting money from the coffee drinkers and keeping up the supply of filters and grounds. It’s like $2/month, so nothing worth getting worked up over.

    5. Lyudie*

      A few groups in my company do this, it’s not an “official” company machine (i.e. not supported by facilities in any way, probably someone’s extra machine from home or bought by a manager) and people generally seem fine bringing in their own cups. Now and then someone will bring in a box for folks to use (something they didn’t like, probably). K cups are more expensive than regular coffee but now that any company can make their own cups, there are cheaper options out there.

      If someone has the time/inclination to go to UPS now and then, the Nespresso capsules can be mailed back to the company for recycling. A friend of mine has one of those machines and loves it, she takes a big bag to UPS every so often and mails them back.

    6. MissBookworm*

      My company has both a Keurig and a regular coffee maker. They buy the tub of coffee for the latter, but we have to bring our own k-cups for the Keurig. It works for us (and unsurprisingly most people use the regular coffee maker).

    7. E*

      I think this is pretty common. An alternative suggestion, a hot water kettle and one or two pour over brewers– everyone still provides their own coffee and filters or they can work out a share amongst themselves. Slightly less environmental impact.

      1. Books4Me*

        We have both a Keurig and a hot water kettle. Several employees love the loose leaf tea, some like the pre-mixed pod variety and everyone has different coffee strengths. The office provides the most common types and people bring in new varieties to try.

    8. ...*

      K cups are probably the most expensive, more wasteful, and worst tasting coffee you can get! Yuck! Who wants coffee filtered through plastic? There is a resuable option though that you put ground coffee in and it makes single cups. that would probably be a good option, except that you have to clean it after each usage and of course no one can ever handle that and people dont know how to use it and spill everywhere! If your employer won’t pay I’d just get a Yeti thermos and BYO. It’ll be way cheaper and you won’t have to try to regulate the cleaning of the machine, purchasing of the coffee etc.

  84. Qwerty*

    Does anyone else feel like they solve their own question when crafting a post for this thread? Or realize that the problem is not what they felt like the issue was?

    I just spent a while trying to craft a post that about a work issue and realized “Oh, the problem is not that Fergus is doing X and here’s why X is problematic, the problem is just Fergus. A reasonable person could just be asked to not do X.”

    This happens almost every time I intend to post here. Was curious if this was a common theme that other people run into.

    2. Moonlight*

      Yes, I’ve started letters. Realized I know the answer (even if I don’t like it).

      It also sometimes helps when I’m stuck on a work problem and I start writing a status with the intention of saying “I give up! It’s an impossible problem.” Frequently, by the time I get to the end of “here’s what I tried and the results”…I think of a new idea. Or realize that maybe I should recheck step 1. Or now my brain puts together some of the results and now I have some more clues.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      I’ve had this happen several times but verbally. Writing or talking are legitimate problem solving techniques.
      Glad you’re solving some problems!

    4. Mill Miker*

      Software development even has a name for this: Rubber Duck Debugging. Explain whatever problem you’re having to the rubber duck (or other desk toy/pet), and usually they’ll be just as helpful as talking to a teammate.

      1. Deb Morgan*

        I love this. And yes, to answer your question Qwerty, I often type out workplace questions in the open thread and then delete them because I was able to answer my own question (with the help of the tiny Alison that sits on my shoulder).

  85. Not great, Bob*

    My husband’s company is hiring for a management position, and my husband would be this person’s supervisor. An internal candidate was quite likely to get the position based on his performance in a non-management role and his interview; however, it turns out he “cheated” on his personality test. The personality tests are required by HR and are done via online assessment. Turns out this candidate sat with another staff member and asked her what to put for each question/item. I think this is no big deal – if you like the person and he’s performed well, why worry about this? My husband is concerned that the candidate couldn’t or wouldn’t fill out a personality test by himself and feels the candidate shouldn’t get the position. FWIW, the score indicated a mediocre match for management. What do you think?

    1. Me*

      I think that personality test are a ridiculous thing to use in a job interview. As such I woudlnt’ care if someone closed their eyes and hit random keys, picked all c’s or had their 5 year old do it. It’s not something that can be cheated on as there’s no “pass”. And it’s not like he had the other staff member do so, he consulted them.

      Besides unless there’s explicit directions on not having any assistance, it’s implementing rules after the fact. If there were explicit directions, then that’s another story because the issue then becomes not following direction which is a bad move.

      If it matters that much, just have him take it again after telling him he needs to complete it without input from others.

      2. Not great, Bob*

        Thanks for weighing in. I really can’t see the point of the personality test, but I agree they should just have the candidate take it again if it’s such a big deal. Who knows, maybe he’ll score “better” the second time? I’m glad my own job doesn’t implement these shenanigans.

    2. Someone Else*

      I can’t wait until these are completely phased out. We take them for fun now at my company, but as an actual basis for promoting someone, it seems like their work history and other verifiable data would be much more helpful than a quiz about their so-called personality traits.

    3. JustMyImagination*

      I get the concern. As a manager, you have to manage different personalities and get the best out of your employees. You also have to be able to tailor feedback and such to people differently. If he can’t do the self-reflection needed for an online personality test then are his soft-skills really at a management level?

    4. Wishing You Well*

      I’d worry about this guy’s honesty. It’s not about the test. It’s that he cheated.
      Secondly, even with cheating, he scored “mediocre”? I’d pass on this guy. I’d also really wonder about the staff member who helped him cheat.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This is where I am too. I think personality tests are a useless waste of time as a screening tool for something like this since I highly doubt they are being administered or interpreted by on-staff I/O psychologists with a deep background in the inherent biases, limitations, and confounds in these types of tests.

        However, if he thought it was equally as ridiculous as I do, the appropriate things to do include:
        a) politely push back, especially as an internal candidate who is a known quantity already
        b) do it anyway while eye-rolling to his heart’s content

        Using someone else’s answers for whatever reason is just bad judgment. That right there tells you more than any personality test could.

      2. tangerineRose*

        “this candidate sat with another staff member and asked her what to put for each question/item.” Yeah, that’s cheating, full scale cheating. Not OK. I wouldn’t want someone on my team who would do this.

      3. LilySparrow*

        How can it be cheating if there’s no right answers? It’s not an academic test that’s being graded.

        He may have asked for help because these tests are ridiculous. I usually see questions where I don’t agree with any of the answers.

        If the person he asked is a good manager, then the “mediocre” results obviously have nothing to do with the ability to do the job.

        And if she isn’t a good manager, the results still have nothing to do with the candidate’s ability.

    5. Lehigh*

      If these are the customer-service type tests that I’m familiar with, my impression is that any reasonable person has to lie to pass them. Nobody I know IRL honestly believes or achieves the absolutely all-the-time perfect smiley black-and-white thinking that they require. If this is that kind of test, I wouldn’t care if the candidate lied alone or got a staff member to help him pick out the best lies. It is my opinion that the test is worse than useless anyway.

      If it’s just a tool to determine personality types in order to use that information during management or interviewing or something, then I could see asking him to retake it, possibly in person so that the interviewer/proctor could address the reasons the candidate was uncomfortable taking it alone in the first place.

    6. Darren*

      My concern would also be about the integrity. The expectation is that you would perform the assessments for a role on your own without soliciting other people for help. Not doing that is in and of itself a serious concern that needs discussion (without considering the results).

      While such a test might seem stupid, I can think of personality like assessment tests that could be used to get information on areas that a person might be weak and need to work on for either assessment (i.e. how weak are they is that too weak to hire them) or training (oh they are a bit of a people pleaser, put them in the training for how that can get them into trouble when they are managing people, and give them the tools they need to give appropriate feedback).

      This in turn depending on the nature might offer other reasons why not having done the test themselves has complicated the situation (not having a good view on what training they need), but frankly the integrity issue is enough on it’s own.

    7. consultinerd*

      I think a reasonable person with otherwise good judgement could psych themselves out about a BS personality test and do something like this. But it might be a worthwhile yellow flag to think about whether this candidate has other issues around judgement or integrity.

      For what it’s worth, you happened to learn this about your internal candidate, but it’s entirely possible that the external candidates you’re considering also crowdsourced answers from their partner, mom, coworker, dog, or leaked answer key on the internet. Basically… ask silly questions, get silly answers.

  86. 1234*

    With the recent posts on AAM about red flags such as “happy employees” and “rockstars wanted,” I began to notice some of these phrases on company websites, at least in my industry. Some that I have seen include:

    “We are like family here”
    “We are a team that works hard and plays hard” with photos of their team bonding events also on their website
    “A dynamic team of rock stars” (or something to that effect)

    Just a hint to those job searching that you don’t even have to make it to the interview to see some of these red flags.

        1. rageismycaffeine*

          Oof. I mean, somehow it surprises me less that the website has cliches than a job posting? But yeah. if the only way you can describe yourself is the most trite language imaginable… lame.

  87. New tricks*

    Any interview advice specific for phone screen with HR? It’s been a while since I’ve interviewed, so I don’t remember what to expect. Should I prepare for behavioral questions? Or is the focus typically more on background and career goals?

    1. Witchy Human*

      Prepare for anything you would in a normal interview. Some companies use “screen” to truly mean screen, some use it to mean a real interview. It may function exactly the way an in-person interview would, and they’ll ask you to talk about past experiences (“tell me about a time when a manager made a decision you didn’t agree with”) or give you hypothetical situations (“a manager makes a decision you don’t agree with–how do you handle it?”)

      Or they may keep it super simple, and just ask about your background, salary requirements, etc.

      IME, phone screens are all over the map.

    2. Jellyfish*

      When prepping for phone interviews, I found it helpful to write some brief notes on several specific occurrences that could be used to answer a range of behavioral questions.

      I had the notes during the call. It wasn’t anything detailed enough to read from, but if they asked something unexpected, it was helpful to have a ready list of anecdotes to draw from.

      If I didn’t bring up any of those during the phone interview, then I had them in reserve for the in-person one.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I second both of the other comments about being prepared as though this was a regular interview. Do be prepared for the salary question. Prepare your own questions as well and even take a look at the interviewer’s LinkedIn profile.

      Also, are you sure this is an HR screen? I thought that going into an interview and it turned out I was talking to the hiring manager and their deputy. Oops.

    4. Darren*

      I would prepare for the behavioural questions, because even when being done as a screen they will potentially dig into a couple of areas that seem interesting that might be filters for candidates. For example we know we need someone in this role capable of handling multiple large concurrent projects, while we are validating their experience and checking on their goals lets make sure to tick that box as well.

  88. Alice*

    I’m thinking about microagressions and customer service and interested to know what the AAM community thinks.

    I was at a training recently where we talked about a customer being rude to a staffer and how the staffer, manager, and team might respond. The trainer used the word “trauma,” which I thought was overblown. In this particular vignette, the rude customer gave the staffer a dirty look and refused to shake hands.
    I would be pissed off for a little while, and I might grouse to my colleague about it, but I wouldn’t be traumatized! And I think that, yes, if you are still thinking about this hours or days later, then you are too sensitive for a customer-facing job.

    For context, I used to work in restaurants, and I think that some of my colleagues at this organization have only ever been employed in academia.

      1. tangerineRose*

        I’ve worked in fast food and tech support, and this isn’t anywhere close to trauma. I’d put it in as “annoying” at worst.

      1. Alice*

        As far as I know, it was a hypothetical situation. Not sure if it had any real life basis, or what the context might have been if it did.
        That said — something else they really leaned on in this training was that it’s about effect, not intent. So if Person A feels disrespected by Person B’s action, it doesn’t matter what Person B’s motivations were. Of course, if Person B then feels disrespected by Person A not observing his religion’s precepts, I don’t really know how it’s supposed to play out.

        1. tangerineRose*

          But that can get complicated. In some parts of the world, giving someone a thumbs up sign is the same as flipping the bird. So if you give someone a thumbs up while in a country that thinks of this as a positive thing, but the person you gave this to is from a country where this isn’t OK, then what?

    3. LGC*

      Ah…yeah, I agree that it might be a bit overblown! But I think that you’re onto something – the academic usage of terms tends to cover a much larger range than colloquial language.

      In this example, that situation isn’t “traumatic” in the sense that I think very few people would have long-term damage from it. (Some probably would, because there’s a huge range! But I don’t think that’s anywhere near the norm.) But I think that if you had to deal with it day in and day out…that would grind on you. It’s a bit like football in this sense – most concussions on their own aren’t horribly traumatic. (Some are, of course.) But if you get a lot of concussions over the course of many years…that leads to terrible things like CTE. You might have never needed to go to the trauma ward or even go to the hospital for a brain injury – but you’re still going to have serious injuries.

      So, I think “trauma” is an overly strong word to describe a one-off incident, but if you’re talking about in the aggregate…I think it’s appropriate.

    4. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

      Whaaat? Trauma for a rude look? Or not shaking hands? That is the dumbest thing. I’ve done customer service since I was 16 and I’m 55 – I wouldn’t even blink. I might mention it to a coworker, but I wouldn’t dwell on it. Harrassment I won’t tolerate, but rude looks? Whatever.

    6. Zap R.*

      I suppose it depends on the context but yeah, “trauma” seems excessive. If they were trying to explain how repeated microaggressions can compound trauma, they probably should have explained that better.

    7. Jellyfish*

      Working in food service many years ago, I witnessed something similar. However, it was much more overt from the customer and clearly 100% about my coworker’s race. My coworker didn’t act like it was a big deal, but I still remember the incident years later. That kind of interaction compounded over and over again across several years? Yeah, I could see calling that traumatic.

      We talk a lot here about how toxic environments reset people’s professional norms in negative ways. A manager being snappy on one bad day isn’t toxic. A coworker making a poorly thought out joke one time isn’t toxic. When there’s a work culture that enables those little things to happen constantly and build on each other though, that becomes a pervasive problem. A customer service job where management never has the employee’s back even when customers are in the wrong has a lot of potential to end badly.

      Maybe that’s what the trainer was getting at and just explained it poorly? Alternately, sometimes academia can get a bit sensitive – especially when it comes to being unnecessarily offended on behalf of other people. I say that as someone who works in academia. :)

    8. Wishing You Well*

      Some customer service incidents are traumatic. Some aren’t. “Trauma” could be overblown in this instance.

  89. CrookedLily*

    Following up on my post from last week about the faith-based EAP, I have an appointment with my PCP this coming Tuesday to discuss help for my depression. I’m also going to ask him to write a letter documenting my medical needs in black and white, to help me navigate formally requesting accommodations at work. This is something he has offered me before. My first few years in this job, I was able to simply tell my manager/lead what I needed, and it’s all pretty common sense stuff, so they were totally reasonable and understanding. But lately everyone wants to push back and resist unless they are forced by HR, and I can’t deal with any more of these thinly disguised passive-aggressive threats to my job.

    I have also gotten involved in a new local social group centered around the lifestyle I mentioned in last week’s post. They have social events almost weekly – last Friday there was a group dinner, tonight there’s a game night and a movie night tomorrow as well. I got to reconnect with a lot of friends I haven’t seen in a while. I’m going to try to attend as many of these events as I can, because I know that getting out and socializing is much better for me than sitting at home staring at the wall! And don’t worry, there is no danger of running into the ex-Dom.

    1. Alexandra Lynch*

      That’s great! I have a good local community and I miss them, but we have one car, and at this point I’d rather go with Boyfriend or Girlfriend, and both are having various mental health issues that lead them to either just want to hole up in their room (her paranoia) or cause them to just have enough energy to get through the work day and then collapse at home (his DID). Yeah, I could make it an order, but they really need me here more than I need to go to karaoke with everyone. (sigh)

  90. Sloan Kittering*

    Uhh, I guess I have been snapping at my coworkers without noticing it. Yikes. We’ve all been under a lot of stress this past month and I kind of thought I was just in the zeitgeist but it … might be specific to me. I’m feeling extra irritable RN due to a combination of factors. Mostly, I don’t like this job and I’m actively trying to get a new one, but these things take time. I keep thinking things like, “take a deep breath when you’re interrupted (I am constantly interrupted and this seems to be the source of the snapping), try to smile before you respond, etc” but because it’s so in the moment, it’s not clear to me that this will be enough. No excuses, other people are also busy and constantly interrupted and don’t get snippy like I do. Any tips out there?

    1. Lucy Preston*

      Following because I’m looking for the same tips, particularly when you ask a coworker to do something and they give a BS answer as to why something can’t be done. Plus I don’t really have a poker face, so everything I’m thinking tends to show.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yes! I feel like suddenly I can’t control my face at all, and snapping is like swearing in that it doesn’t matter what you resolve big-picture if you can’t control yourself in the instant that it happens.

    2. ten-four*

      Ugh, sympathy. One technique I’ve heard is to choose a “first thing to say when I’m interrupted” phrase, and train yourself into the habit of always responding with it. That way your insta-response is this phrase instead of whatever snap jumps to your mind. So things like: “Hi, what’s up?” or “Hi, just one moment. (finishes up whatever, look over and smile). What’s up?”

      The idea is to have a “thing to say” rather than “try to control my temper in the moment” because realistically you’re not going to be able to subdue your irritation in the moment with a breath or a smile! So setting the goal/habit of “say something polite” is a lot easier than “stop being stressed and annoyed.”

  91. Strawberry Fields*

    My coworkers are very cliquey and don’t talk to me, yet tell me that I’m quiet! I want to say, “Well, you’re not talking to me so who would I talk to?” but it probably isn’t professional to say that.

    What do you say or do in this situation?

    1. fposte*

      Are you just looking for a response, or are you trying to develop a friendship? If they’re saying “You’re so quiet” it sounds like they’re thinking of you as participating. “Mostly I just like to listen–conversation here moves so fast that I can’t jump in in time! How did you get the rhythm when you first started?”

      And there are a lot of places where it works better to speak rather than waiting to be spoken to–it may be that that’s your situation. If so, consider diving in–questions based on earlier information about somebody’s life are a good place to start.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      As AAM often asks, what outcome are you hoping for? Are you looking to engage more with your colleagues? Are you okay with not talking much and just want to keep things as they are? If the latter, maybe a reply could be, “Oh, yeah, I tend to get in the zone on when I’m doing [work task]” in a friendly tone.

      If you want to talk more with your colleagues:
      Are you new-ish to this organization? Maybe pick one or two folks who seem open to being friendly and ask if they’d like to grab a cup of coffee in the morning or afternoon, as a “get to know you” type of a thing.

      Also, if you’re in meetings a lot, use the few minutes before the meeting starts for some quick “How is [non-work hobby] going?” or “Goodness, we’ve been having some crazy weather lately, huh?” to start building a habit of small talk for you and your coworkers.

      For the record, I am also quiet and generally don’t like that sort of thing. Gritting my teeth and forcing myself to make the ask, framing it in my head as part of AAM’s perspective that part of any job is to be a warm, collegial coworker.

  92. State govt references/jobs issue*

    A friend contacted me with a dilemma and I offered to post it here.

    They’re applying to other agencies to get out of a bad situation. They’ve just heard they’re the top candidate for another state job – but that the agency *can’t* make an offer without a good reference from their current supervisor. (WHY places do this is a separate question.) Said supervisor is a big part of the problem, and my friend said “no” on the application materials requesting permission to contact her. There’s a slim chance the supervisor will give a good reference to get rid of my friend, but they can’t count on it, it’s more likely the supervisor will slam them. This would presumably cost my friend the the new job, and move their current job from iffy into being pushed out. Said supervisor is known for ethics violations, but is nonetheless fairly highly placed. It would be too bad to lose vesting (they’re so close!), on top of everything else. They made a lot of decisions based on the anticipated job security of state employment.

    What options might my friend have for negotiating any of this? They’re in a union job, and I have zero experience with unions or with government jobs. I do know that HR has an eye on this situation. Might they be able to help? My friend is going to consult with their union steward, but doesn’t think they can argue this type of thing. I don’t know anyone who works for that state to ask for inside expertise.

    Those of you who’ve worked for state governments, what would you recommend? How likely is it that the agency with the new job would hire someone if their current manager slammed them, if every other reference has raved about them? What else should they be asking, looking into, while negotiating this?

    Many thanks.

    1. CheeryO*

      I would absolutely talk to the union steward. I’m not sure if they will be able to do anything preemptively, but if your friend ends up being pushed out for trying to get a new job at a different agency, that seems like an absolute slam dunk for a grievance.

      I don’t know how much weight the reference will carry, but I sort of doubt that it would be an automatic disqualifier. “Good reference from current supervisor” is not clear or objective, which is something that government hiring always attempts to be, to a fault. It’s much more likely that it’s actually, “Obtained reference from current supervisor, who confirmed dates of employment,” or “Obtained positive reference from current supervisor,” with a specific list of questions that have to be answered affirmatively. I don’t see a situation where your friend’s boss can go off on a rant about your friend and have it matter, but I guess it’s possible.

      1. Darren*

        Hmm, I guess you’d be surprised how much damage even a reference with just a list of questions all answered in the affirmative can be.

        “Did X do Y job duty satisfactorily?”
        “Hmm Y, well Y wasn’t a huge part of her role, but when it came up I suppose she did it okay.”

        If Y is especially important to that new role, it’s not really going to be a stellar reference, and it’s neither a negative reference, nor technically a lie even if Y was around 20ish percent of her role.

        These are the kind of luke-warm references people that don’t like you can give. They basically torpedo the appearance of your effectiveness with faint praise, uncertainty, and reluctance. A good reference is a lot more than just all affirmatives to a bunch of questions.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Hm…I don’t have experience with state government, so this may be off-base.

      Since you say HR is monitoring (presumably HR at CurrentJob), could your friend say that the policy is not to give references, then ask HR to confirm employment? And/or does your friend have copies of performance reviews that could be shared?

    3. Middle Manager*

      Does your friend have a better relationship with their boss’s boss? If so, it might be worth asking that person to give the current supervisor reference if the hiring agency will accept that. We’ve done that in my corner of state government. No one who works in state government is unaware that there are many great employees and also pockets of people who would 100% be fired in the private sector but manage to stay due to union regs or civil service regs and management being unwilling to jump through all the hoops to fire them.

  93. VictoriaQ*

    So about two months ago now (time sure does fly!) I posted several times in the Friday thread about my boring job and the troubles I was having with it. Thankfully I got a new job soon after and I’ve been much happier! I’m certainly busy now, and the people I work with are the loveliest!

  94. Choose your words*

    Just having one of those weeks when you try your best, but it seems the best isn’t good enough.

    One of our client’s contracts reached its end date. The client had certain obligations as part of the contract, which included the return of certain items they were allowed to use along the way. When the items were not returned on time (several days past the contract end date), and it was evident they were still being used by the client, my boss instructed me to send an email saying we were charging them extra. The client replied with a hasty email accusing us of quibbling over a small detail. The boss, wrote an email, to be sent in my name, that would have started a mud-slinging word battle. Instead of just being factual, it would have accused the client of grandstanding for the sake of their boss and questioned the client’s management skills. I refused to send something like that with my name attached to it, so the boss relented and let me send the email my way.

    The client’s boss responded to my email with accusations of my company acting underhandedly. Now my boss is disappointed that I wouldn’t allow us to be the ones to start the belittling battle.

    In another instance, a vendor was asking for payment for goods that were never delivered to us. The boss said for me to talk to the vendor and explain that since we never received the goods, we wouldn’t pay for them. I did and was nice about it, but the vendor was insistent that the goods were delivered to us and refused to sell us anything else until we paid. Knowing that we need this vendor, I convinced them to double check their records. The vendor never contacted us again. I was stuck in a rut between a vendor who wanted money and a boss unwilling to pay and had no idea how to negotiate an agreement. The boss contacted the vendor and got the vendor to agree to deliver more goods, based on a carefully worded discussion that really promised nothing. In the call, the boss found out that the vendor is mad at me for the previous phone call. Now the boss is reconsidering my being the contact person for this vendor, which sucks because the vendor is a crucial cog to a project that is assigned to me.

    Just annoying because it feels like if I say what the boss wants, I’m wrong, and if I don’t, I’m still wrong.

    1. tangerineRose*

      “The boss, wrote an email, to be sent in my name, that would have started a mud-slinging word battle. Instead of just being factual, it would have accused the client of grandstanding for the sake of their boss and questioned the client’s management skills”

      I think the boss is a big part of the problem here.

  96. NovemberNovember*

    Any advice for going into a summer internship? It’s my first internship and will possibly be the only one I have before I graduate, so I want to make the most of it. I’ve talked to students who previously interned, and have gotten some good advice (ask questions, be proactive, etc). For those of you who have had interns before, what did they do that you thought was good? What mistakes did they make?
    For reference, I’m interning in a tech position with a very large company that has a well-established intern program, so I will have a lot of guidance! But I know you get out of an internship what you put into it.

    1. Colette*

      Know that you don’t know everything! You’re there to learn, and you won’t have the institutional knowledge to know what they’ve tried before, or why things are the way they are. Assume there are valid reasons, and don’t start off by assuming you know more than they do about how things should be done. (I have no reason to think you will! But that’s the kind of mistake that’s harder to recover from.)

    2. Kiwiii*

      Learn as much about the entry level positions and office norms as you can while you’re there. See if you can get anyone to look at your resume and make suggestions towards what they’d look for in a candidate (I had a contract position early on in my career where the receptionist decimated my resume, it was wonderful and I’ve gotten tons of interviews since). Try and learn as much as you can and if your mentor/manager seems really willing to answer questions definitely ask as many as it makes sense to.

      But also, if you can and if you like the position, impress them. We currently have two interns in our larger team and one of them we’ve recently offered a full time position to and the other one we won’t be. The one we won’t be does his work well, but doesn’t problem solve, think about the larger implications of the work he’s doing, retain information that’s not about his current tasks, or attend optional meetings. And he doesn’t have to, he’s not bad for an intern, but his behavior signals clearly to us that he doesn’t consider himself an employee, so we’re not going to either.

    3. Chili*

      Ask early on (within the first week) what sort of guidance and feedback you’ll be getting. If you’re not getting a one-on-one or some sort of feedback at least every other week, ask if you can have more. Summer internships are short, so every week matters a lot for your experience, but it’s easy for those you’re working with to forget that.

    4. MissGirl*

      Mine allowed us to set up informational interviews with people at differing levels. This gave us an idea of career paths, opportunities, and what different roles required.

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I agree with everyone else. I also want to balance that with, remember you are there to do the work they give you, so don’t be so caught up in learning that you don’t accomplish that work. And don’t get so caught up in the work that you don’t network and learn.

      Treat it like a job, because it is one!

  97. zora*

    JOB SEARCH ACCOUNTABILITY THREAD

    Post here what you did in your job search this week! Or use this to vent, we are here for moral support.

    Go get that NEW JOB!

    1. zora*

      I didn’t get anything done this week, I had a big event at my current job yesterday and today so I was focused on that.

      BUT, the event last night when so well, the hosts were gushing at me all night long, and again this morning, so that is a nice confidence boost. And I’m feeling ready to jump back in this weekend and make some progress.

    2. justkiya*

      I had an interview at TWO places last week (both on Thursday) and haven’t heard back from either. I know hiring takes time, but ARGH. I hope my interviews being on Halloween doesn’t mean I’m gonna get ghosted by both. :( And I felt really good about how I performed in both, too.

      *sigh* Going back to entry-level is no fun, at all.

    3. NeonDreams*

      A second federal application I applied for was referred to the department I applied to. Hoping I will get an interview like the first one.

    4. Mill Miker*

      I managed to sign up with flexjobs, as per a recommendation from a couple weeks ago. I’ve gone through and bookmarked some interesting jobs, but I’m still having a hard time convincing myself that there are companies in my industry that aren’t either already terrible to work for, or a quick and inevitable management decision away from becoming one.

  98. Moonlight*

    My coworker recently purchased a duplex (basically two houses that share a center wall). He lives in part and is going to rent out the other residence. That’s cool.

    But he’s been looking for a renter and has had to leave earlier than average a handful of times to go and meet with the renter. So we do have a flexible work place. While management prefers we’re in the office, working from home to wait for a package, meet the plumber, get over the dregs of a cold, bad weather, all cool.

    But somehow leaving to meet with a renter seems like advertising that you are actively working a second job? Which rubs me the wrong way. This is a full time, well paid position so having an actual second job is pretty unusual.

    He posts leaving in our shared chat so it’s not like it is hidden. If management thought it was dicey, they could speak to him. It seems like it would be better optics to just say, “Hey, switching to the home office.” But then, you could argue, why not be transparent (within reason) if it’s fine for our workplace.

    1. Catsaber*

      I don’t consider that a second job because it seems like a very occasional thing – like he’s not going to have a constant stream of renters to deal with. It sounds like he’s getting the first renter set up, and it could be at least several months to a year before he has another renter, possibly many years if the tenant stays a while. He will have to take care of various maintenance issues with the duplex of course…but I don’t see those as happening that often either.

      I would consider it more of a second job if he was managing several rental properties at once. This is more like, I have an extra room I’m not using and want to rent out.

    2. Colette*

      I think being a landlord is a different thing than having a second job, at least as far as the perception goes – it’s closer in my mind to owning a house yourself.

      But ultimately, if management doesn’t care, they don’t care.

    3. TCO*

      Huh, that’s an interesting way to look at it. I own a few rental properties and in some ways that definitely is a second job on top of my (FT, pretty well-paid) day job. My workplace also generally prefers us to be in the office but offers a lot of flexibility for work-life balance needs. Occasionally (including yesterday) I do need to flex my work schedule a bit to accommodate a need at a rental property and I don’t hide that.

      I’ve never had anyone, at all of the places I’ve worked while managing rental properties, raise any concern or question about occasionally flexing my time. If it’s not having any impact on my work, I don’t see how it’s really that different than flexing my time for a medical appointment, family need, etc. Unless the flexibility is harming someone’s work or is far in excess of what would usually be allowed, I don’t see a reason why anyone should care.

    4. Jedi Squirrel*

      Don’t let it bug you. This is typical with renting out a place. He may end up with a long term tenant and may not have to leave early as a result of this for years to come.

      And it’s not working a second job. He just made a good investment decision. This is in line with leaving to meet with his mutual funds manager and not outside employment.

    5. LilySparrow*

      He’s renting out part of his home.

      Would you think he was “moonlighting” if he was meeting a prospective roommate?

      More importantly, if you have flexible work, his leaving has zero impact on your ability to do your job, and you aren’t his manager, why does it matter?

    6. Darren*

      Think about it from the other side as a renter. When I’ve been looking for a new place I’ve had to duck out of work a few days here and there to look at places (and/or just work from home the entire day bar the times I’m out looking at the new places) and likely you’ve had to do the same right?

      You’ll also likely have to do this about the same amount of time he will have to duck out to deal with a renter. It’s not significantly different.

  99. anon for always*

    What book(s), aside from Alison’s spectacular work, did you find helpful and you would recommend to someone new to the working world?

    1. Middle Manager*

      For writing performance reviews, I’ve found the 2,600 Phrases for Effective Performance Reviews and 2,600 Phrases for Effective Goal Setting super helpful, especially my first few times doing performance reviews. I rarely used things from the book verbatim, I work really hard to tailor my reviews personally to every staff person, but they gave me a great starting point to work from.

      Also really like the Career and Manager Tools podcasts and they have two books out that are good. The Effective Hiring Manager by Mark Horstman is a good intro. The Effective Hiring Manager was a little less helpful to me because as a government employee I have almost no say over how we hire, but I did still get some good nuggets out of it.

  100. yams*

    Just venting. A jerk manager is demanding I create a new profile in the system and he is complaining to my boss I am delaying a project’s implementation with my stubbornness, but his team didn’t send any of the information I need and they didn’t actually send the request until yesterday at 5 PM while they have had the customer order since Monday. I am so annoyed at him right now.

    1. Wishing You Well*

      Keep your boss informed of the facts since this manager is involving your boss in this.

      1. tangerineRose*

        And do your best to put this in a “just the facts” way, especially if you keep your boss informed via e-mail. Remember, e-mail is easy to forward.

  101. writelhd*

    My boss is mostly great, but he’s also kind of mecurial, and has a habit of throwing me vague, increasingly large in scope projects that feel a bit off the cuff, and sometimes even contradictory to recent strategy or goal-setting. Lately he is throwing them to me much faster than I can hope to attend to even working extra hours, on top of my regular duties which are customer-facing and thus unpredictable as far as timing, as well as my own projects which I am asked to come up with and then implement. Our check-ins lately are mostly me saying “I’m sorry, I haven’t started Y that you asked me to do yet, even though it was months ago, I am still trying to finish X and Z projects whose scopes are quite large, remember, I proposed Z and you approved and here’s my progress on them, should I keep prioritizing this way or do you want me to shift priorities?”

    He never says I am wrong in how I am prioritizing or criticizes me for being behind, but I do not love feeling like a broken record about this. Some of his projects I would rather refuse until/unless the scope were a little clearer or I had cleared some other ones off my plate first, and some I already feel pretty strongly will not work, but I know that refusing work looks bad and I don’t want to be unwilling to try things, and I might be wrong that they won’t work. But I also think a lot of “I’m still not done with that, and no I haven’t even started that” is pretty bad too and I personally get really down on work when I don’t’ feel like I’m getting anything done, though I do circle back to what I *have* done and check in to make sure he’s ok with me doing that. Which is worse? Are there any better scripts out there for negotiating priorities with one’s boss?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Hm…it sounds like maybe you are projecting, since you don’t mention feedback from your boss saying there is a problem.

      Maybe the following would help:
      1) Setup a calendar/timeline of the different projects you’ve been assigned, including due dates and future start times for projects that you haven’t started yet. Maybe layer in the milestones for your open projects.
      2) At your next check-in, share this with your boss so he knows you’re tracking these things and he can let you know if timing seems off.
      3) When he gives you new projects, put the start and end dates into your timeline.

      Then, stop talking about the projects you haven’t started yet during your check-ins, because they aren’t supposed to be started yet.

      1. valentine*

        You can list the fantasy projects under “Pending” or the like. It is sometimes fine to say no to work, or to convince the other person to hold off. You can ask him to agree that a project have x, y, and z, before he assigns it to you. Send him the list before you meet, so he has a chance to read it, if he wants.

    2. ..Kat..*

      Alison has some excellent posts about how to tell your boss that you have too much work and how to push back.

  102. Binky*

    I’m working with a colleague who is slightly senior to me. We’re supposed to be working together as peers on this project (he has some subject matter expertise on one aspect of the project). But he regularly doesn’t fully read or comprehend my emails before responding. Which leads to him writing complete non sequiturs or really condescending “well, we’ll need to consider X” when I explicitly discuss X in my email. I know he does this to everyone, so it doesn’t appear to be a gendered issue, and people on my team (all cis men but me) complain about it often.

    Is there anyway to address this as a pattern given I’m definitely not his manager? It’s not too hard to respond in any given situation, but the whole thing just makes me hate working with him. I feel very ignored and/or condescended to way too often, and honestly it just makes for a terrible working relationship. Especially since I’ll delay responding to his emails because I’m weighing how blunt I need to be actually get the issues resolved, and how much softening I can stomach.

    1. Legally a Vacuum*

      Is it better if you speak in person with him? It might be worth stopping by his desk for questions/follow-up if you know your e-mails will be ignored.

      1. Binky*

        We’re not in the same office, so that’s out. And our phone conversations are not super productive.

    2. Cloudy with sunny breaks*

      Bullet points in your emails or multiple emails each pertaining to one topic. Annoying? Yes! But might help the problem?

  103. two cents*

    Up until this year my job was treated as an independent contractor position and I filed taxes as self-employed. They switched all of us the W2 employees this year (NYS changed the laws). I didn’t think too much about it except to be thrilled I didn’t have to do quarterly estimated payments. But now I’m realizing I don’t know if I can still file as self-employed? Cause I can really use the health insurance deduction since I pay for insurance myself. I work directly with clients on their schedules, submit time sheets to my employer, and the clients pay the company that cuts my checks. I don’t have an office, I either work in client homes or at my place.

    (I know I can check the IRS website, I just thought some folks here might experienced similar situations)

    1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      I would think that you can still deduct health insurance premiums as medical expenses, but I don’t think you can deduct it as a business expense anymore (and, even if you can, you’d need to deduct it against your self-employment income, which presumably is $0 if all your income is now W2). So, it might only be a thing if you itemize :/ and tbh I’m not at all sure what medical expenses are deductible at all (though I know there ARE some).

      I’m not an accountant, I’m not YOUR accountant, etc.

    2. Natalie*

      No, you cannot file a Schedule C if you are an employee and receive a W2.

      I’m assuming you purchase your insurance on the open market, in which case it is theoretically deductible. In practice, however, it rarely ends up being a deduction because you have to itemize, and you can only deduct health expenses (included insurance premiums) that exceed 10% of your Adjusted Gross income. You cannot deduct it “above the line”, before figuring your AGI.

      If you are purchasing insurance through your employer, it is almost certain coming out of your paycheck pre-tax, in which case it’s already been deducted and you obviously can’t deduct it again.

  104. Detest Toilet Talk*

    I think my boss just called me from the toilet. He called me about a project, and was talking along and I heard a flush. He’s working from home today, and is single, so its unlikely someone else. I’m a new employee reporting to him. I’m just … ew.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      WHY DO PEOPLE DO THIS????? It’s bad enough when you do it at home, but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been in a public restroom with somebody making a phone call in another stall.

      Even better, one time at an airport, someone I assumed was just on the phone emerged from a stall… and she was on Facetime. Someone could see her on the toilet. I will never get over that.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Maybe your boss had an out-of-town guest and that’s why he was working from home? Or a contractor/cable technician/etc.?

      Or maybe he lives somewhere with really thin walls and that was a neighbor.

      #LiesToHelpYouSleepAtNight

    3. LGC*

      I don’t know what’s more impressive: that you managed to get hired by Lyndon Baines Johnson 46 years after he died, or that Zombie LBJ has figured out how to operate a smartphone.

  105. Lindsay Gee*

    This is so low stakes but with leftover halloween candy in the office, I’ve somehow become the target of the candy police. There’s a candy bowl up for grabs for everyone, so we all grab a couple pieces a day, or a few pieces to take home. All week, every single day, and sometimes TWICE in one day, my co-worker has made comments to the effect of: Lindsay has been eating all the candy! Look at all the candy wrappers in the garbage, Lindsay sure has been eating a bunch of candy! Of course you have a sweet tooth, you’ve been eating like 5 pieces of candy a day!!
    It is driving me INSANE partly because a) it’s not true, I’m pretty sure we’re all eating the same amount. He might actually be eating more than anyone else. b) it’s so weird to have someone potentially watching my food consumption?! I have a good script in my head, but haven’t really had a good opportunity to say anything. The day he did it twice in one day, I GLARED at him with the most “WTF is your problem?” look and was going to say something, but he started talking to someone else. What’s complicating this is we have a new coworker sharing our office, and I KNOW if I talk to him about it, he’ll just say “Oh i was just joking, no need to be so serious!” so then i get gaslight and made to look like the office bitch for not tkaing a joke…GAHHH. I want to ban sweets from the office, but then this coworker randomely went to a bakery yesterday and brought more sweets, and really PUSHED us to take them. This is all too weird.

    1. Jedi Squirrel*

      “Wow, Greg, you seem to have a weird obsession with who is eating the Halloween candy.”

      And I would repeat this, word for word, every time he says something until he finally GETS THE MESSAGE.

      Because, yes, this is obsessive, and it’s also weird.

      1. valentine*

        Him: Oh, I was just joking. No need to be so serious!
        You: *brightly, smiling* Then you won’t mind stopping!

        this coworker randomely went to a bakery yesterday and brought more sweets, and really PUSHED us to take them.
        Missed opportunity to say, “No, thanks. I don’t want you getting upset, like you did when you thought I ate candy.” He’s projecting. I’d be tempting to look him in the eye while crunching carrots, but that’s too much energy wasted on him.

        Is there only one trash can? Five pieces is nothing.

    3. Zap R.*

      I say feign innocence. Next time he does it, very apologetically say “Oh, was the candy not for us? I’m sorry!” or “Oh, is there a limit on how much we’re supposed to be taking? I didn’t know!” Force him into a position where he has to *explain* why he’s being so weird about it and he’ll probably back off.

    4. That'll happen*

      Sounds like your coworker feels guilty about how much candy he’s eating and wants to blame it on somebody else. Food is such a fraught thing at work and I wish everybody could just mind their own business. I think Jedi Squirrel’s suggestion is great, and I’d add that this is only reflecting poorly on him, not you. I know I’d definitely think he was being totally weird.

    5. E*

      Ugh, that’s annoying. I agree with That’ll Happen, he is probably secretly eating the candy and is trying to create a decoy. Work food politics are such a pain.

      1. Lindsay Gee*

        YES! This is the part that makes me feel crazy. I know I haven’t eaten certain things, simply because I don’t eat those particular kinds of candy, yet he keeps attributing all this stuff to me. My fantasy is to take all the damn skittles wrappers and put them on his desk, like “ACTUALLY, you ate these, i don’t eat skittles”.

        1. tangerineRose*

          Can you just say “I don’t eat that kind of candy” or “You’re saying this a lot – why?” or “It’s weird how much you talk about it, especially since you keep exaggerating”

          And if he accuses you of having no sense of humor, maybe say “I’m just tired of hearing the same ‘joke’ over and over and over again”?

    6. Alice*

      Yuck. Try a quizzical and long-suffering look, as if you were saying, “why on earth are you making this comment?” And let the silence ring. It’s ok for him to feel uncomfortable. And FWIW I’m sure the new person is thinking, wow, this guy’s a jerk.

  106. Stuffy Corner Cubicle*

    I’m wondering if someone can help me with wording.

    I need to write a shout-out for someone in my department who discovered, somewhat by accident, that something was being done contrary to regulatory requirements. She’s covering a task for someone who’s out on sick leave and she discovered that we are doing X part of the task wrong. After doing some research into the regs and talking with people in the company, I came to the conclusion that she is right and we should have been doing it a different way. (For whatever reason, it has never come up in an audit–I have no why. I’m thinking maybe vagueness in a document that defines how we treat a particular part of this task.) So I’ve changed how we do this task and all is well.

    This issue I have is that the shout-out is made public within the company and the former manager still works here. I need to word it in such a way that makes it clear my employee did an awesome job finding this issue, but without pointing the finger at the former manager. From what I can tell, he misinterpreted regulatory requirements and it was just never noticed by anyone, including auditors. This task was done in the incorrect fashion for YEARS.

    1. Lyudie*

      How about something like “problem-solving” or “identifying solutions” that is sort of vague but still says “good job on the thing”?

      1. Jedi Squirrel*

        Yep, vague works. I would word this as “…as part of our continual improvement program, we are pivoting from x to y on Project Z…

    2. CheeryO*

      Oof, I would be extremely vague, if you absolutely must do it. The regulator in me is cringing that this is something that’s being spun in a positive way, to be honest.

      1. Stuffy Corner Cubicle*

        Trust me, I know. But it could have gone on for much longer, I guess. The fact that an auditor never questioned it is strange. But the rules do allow this task to be treated the old way IF the actual criteria were true. I think boils down to a vaguely worded document and new eyes–mine and the employee’s–looking at it differently.

        1. Stuffy Corner Cubicle*

          And yes, I’ve been told I need to do this “shout out” as part of our employee recognition program.

          1. valentine*

            “Clothilde identified a vital process change that makes us compliant, thus preserving precious resources (like five to ten and a $$$$$ fine).”

    3. Llellayena*

      “After a review of our process, we need to update task X to use Process Y to conform with the current regulations. Please start using Process Y as of today.” No mention that the “regulations” have been in place for years, it just sounds like they were updated. If the former person asks, you can explain “yeah, we have no idea how all of us missed that for so long, I’m glad we finally noticed it!” (“all of us” emphasizes that it’s not just the one person’s fault.)

  107. Frustrated Worker Bee*

    Hi all,
    Would love some advice on representing a job accurately:
    A co-worker and I were brought on board as entry level employees of llama farm that is run as a separate part of a larger llama lodge; both of which were set to open several months later. Shortly before the llama farm was to open, our director left and we picked up the slack and were the ones to open the llama farm. Another director was hired, proved to be a terrible fit, and left several months later. 
    Since Director #2 has left, we have picked up the pieces and are working every part of the llama farm. At first, a promotion and title change had been promised, however the Llamas That Be have decreed that all promotions and title changes at the llama lodge are frozen and thus, the llama farm, too. We are still expected to do director level work and everything in-between: from working at the front desk and customer service to managing events as well as financial, marketing, and long term strategy initiatives. We are burned out and have started job hunting but we are worried that despite working upper management level roles, the lack of title and relatively short time (still under 2 years as it’s a new llama brand) on our resumes won’t accurately reflect what we have accomplished. 
    How would you describe doing director level work on job application materials when the title (and salary) don’t reflect it? 

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Crazy Llama Farms
      Poorly Thought Out and Unfair Position Title; November 2019 to present
      -Covered Llama Director tasks and responsibilities across the llama farm in tandem with teammate
      -Accomplishment
      -Accomplishment
      -Accomplishment

      Alternative: Covered tasks and responsibilities of vacant Llama Director position in tandem with teammate

    2. The New Wanderer*

      You might put “Acting Director” or “Interim Director” or something in parentheses after your official title. Definitely put in all of the accomplishments that show director-level efforts, everything you spelled out in the post could be its own bullet point.

      Hope you get out soon!

  108. Not failed, pre-successful*

    I’ve been at a new job for a little over a month. Currently, I get to work from home 2 says a week. My manager asks for a write up of what I worked on each day I work from home. How long is this normal for? I feel like at some point, this becomes micro-managing. I’m in sales if that makes a difference. I also input any sales notes I have into our CRM program.

    1. Kathenus*

      I was the first person in a new (not WFH) role at a past organization, and the Deputy Director wanted me to send a weekly significant activities and achievements email to her. It went on for two years….

      I just made sure it was easy to do – keep a digital or hard copy note available to just jot down things throughout the day/week and drop them into an email template you create. While annoying, I understood that this was a brand new position and they wanted to know what I was doing and be able to justify the money being put into it, so I just found a way that was easy for me to complete and did it without worrying about any negative connotations (micro-managing, lack of trust, etc.) . My mindset helped a lot with my being neutral to the task, I think, because I totally understood why she wanted it (even if I couldn’t quite figure out why for so long). I think you could find an easy way to do this in a couple of minutes a day, tops.

    2. CKT*

      A lot of companies won’t allow you to WFH for the first 3-6 months of a new job, so the fact that you’re getting to twice a week and you’ve only been there a month is pretty lucky. I’d stick to the notes and keep doing what your manager is asking. You’re not really in a position to push back, and if they end up being a micro-manager, you will have to find a way to work around it.

      1. badger*

        It’s standard practice at my office that you can work from home if you announce it in a certain time frame and add what you will be working on. I don’t find this to be odd as long as you’re not being asked to provide minute details.

    3. Middle Manager*

      We’re currently looking at adding a WFH option and a daily work log is in the proposed policy the higher ups sent out for staff input. I wouldn’t see it as a big deal. The work we do can be a little ambiguous, we’re not producing a tangible measurable product a lot of time, so it could take a really long time for a supervisor to figure out that a staff person was wasting a ton of time at home. A simple log seems like reasonable accountability to me as long as it’s not demanding too much detail or minute by minute activity. The template they sent out was in 30 minute slots. I tested it in the office, just doing it throughout the day as I worked. It took less than a minute per hour to do it.

  109. Boogity*

    I work for a K-12 school district. I’m a secretary at one of the high schools and my son is in 4th grade at an elementary school that feeds into a different high school within our area. My district has a very strict “promote from within” policy – they open all jobs first to internal candidates and then later to external only if needed. That means it is incredibly difficult to get into the district at a mid or higher level position. I lucked out two years ago when I got my job here from another district.

    One of the accounting managers at the main district headquarters gave me a head’s up that the lead Secretary/office manager for my son’s school had notified the district she would be retiring at the end of the school year. I didn’t think much of it – I really like the high school I’m at, even if my job is a crazy busy, demanding, hectic ball of stress, it’s still fun. But our own lead secretary is now leaving to help open a brand new school in the district so things are going to start changing around here and frankly, I don’t see how it can get better. (Maybe that’s pessimistic of me, but I’ve had bad experiences with changes in leadership.) Now I’m wondering if I should pursue the lead position at my son’s school. Honestly, it would be so much less stressful than my current office, but I really hesitate to be on the same campus as my kid. I can totally see him trying to come to the office for a hug every time he needs to go pee or trying to sit in my office and participate in the adults’ conversations. But I wouldn’t have this crazy pressure I have now, it’s a slower pace, and the pay is better since it’s technically a promotion.

    Here’s another downside: my husband and I have said for years that we would like to leave our current state. Our ideal time to move would be in two years, when my son leaves elementary school and moves up to junior high. But we haven’t decided on an actual location to move to yet, so it’s still very much “one day when we leave State…”

    Argh… I just don’t know. The problem is that my district will actually be posting next academic year jobs soon, so I do have to decide. Because I would need to talk to the principal to see if it would even be an option or if he already has a person in mind (promote from within their own school and not consider other site personnel).

    For any of you who could help me think this through, I would appreciate it.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      If you were offered the job (based on what you know now) would you 100% turn it down?

      If the answer is no, I say explore the opportunity. You’re asking good questions when you’re at the offer stage or close to it. Nothing you’ve said suggests you would be burning political capital or hurting relationships by applying, so why not apply and learn more?

      1. valentine*

        If you can’t have a professional boundary with your kid (no visits/hugs), don’t do it. It sounds like the current situation is good for him. See what happens where you are or keep an eye out for a different school. Especially if considering this job is like running for the first door marked exit, get cracking on making real plans, even if you have to move before your kid’s between schools. Knowing that move is going to happen will energize you and give you a better perspective from which to make decisions.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      As a teacher’s kid, there comes a point where you don’t want to be known Mrs. Second Grade Teacher’s kid. So will he come hang out with you before/after school? Possibly. Will he steal away for a hug? Ehhh, I wouldn’t count on it. If you’re avoiding the elementary strictly for that reason, I wouldn’t. And you’re also fully able to set boundaries with him on what is and is not acceptable behavior when he is a student and you are working.

      1. Clisby*

        But this kid is in 4th grade, not 2nd. It could easily be different in other places, but where I live, 5th grade is typically the last year a child goes to an elementary school. Middle schools (grades 6-8) are the norm. There might not be a lot of overlap between taking the job and the kid moving on.

        1. LGC*

          Boogity does mention that actually – she’d rather take a new job when her son is entering middle school age in a couple of years.

          At any rate, her son’s going to be 10 this school year! She knows her son better than I do (she has this particular 9-year-old boy, I’ve just been a nine-year-old boy), but I would bet that he doesn’t want to constantly be seen with his mom. Certainly not by the time he’s entering sixth grade.

    3. Ron McDon*

      I work at the school my sons used to attend.

      My eldest was already in year 5 when I started and was a very independent child anyway, so there weren’t any issues.

      My youngest was much more clingy (he suffered with anxiety) so it was a bit of an issue that he wanted to come and see me all the time, and particularly when he was upset, but he grew out of that by about year 4; certainly it wasn’t an issue in year 5. YMMV as all children are different and you know yours best.

      At my school it was never an issue or frowned upon if my children came to see me at break/lunch/after school, we’d have a chat for a minute or two then I’d send them on their way as I had to get back to work. I feel like schools are more understanding around this than other workplaces would be.

  110. T.J.T.*

    Sort of a relationship question but it also related to work. The workers at my girlfriend’s company had wanted to institute a 4 day workweek [4 10 hours days instead of 5 8 hours ones] for a long time. The workers are unionized when the new collective agreement was negotiated the company agreed to the 4 day workweek.

    But there was nothing put in the agreement about what 4 days she and her colleagues would work. The workers assumed it would be Monday to Thursday or Tuesday to Friday. But the company has set them as Friday to Monday! The thing is, there is nothing in the agreement about which days are the working days and it says the company can decide as it sees fit. The agreement was agreed to 100% percent by those in charge at the company and ratified 100% by all the workers because of the 4 day workweek clause.

    The agreement is good for 4 years and it has only been one month. The company is totally punishing the workers for asking for a 4 day workweek and there is nothing the union or the workers can do until it is time for the next agreement. If workers leave the company will have no trouble replacing them due to the union wages and benefits offered and lots of people would jump at the chance to have those. The new work schedule won’t affect profits for the company in any way also.

    My question is how can I support my girlfriend now that she is working longer hours that she hates and has to work on weekends now? Unless she finds another job with similar wages and benefits leaving is out of the question and those kinds of jobs are few and far between around here. I have always only worked Monday-Friday 9-5 jobs so I have never had to work longer hours or weekends and I am at a loss as to what I can to do support her through this.

    Thank you!

    1. Third or Nothing!*

      OMG that suuuuuuuuuuuuuucks! I can offer a little bit of practical advice since my husband is a welder and works long weird hours. Here are some things I do to help him:

      1) Be flexible with hangout times. Given your GF’s schedule, she’ll realistically only be available on T-TH. Consider meeting her for breakfast before you go to work, for lunch, or do something together after you get off work. With 10 hour workdays, she probably won’t be up for weekend socializing except for special occasions.
      2) Meal prep! I don’t know how skilled you are in the kitchen, so take this or leave it, but honestly having all our meals already cooked and ready to go has been a huge lifesaver in our family. I’d bet she would benefit from it too, and it would be a very thoughtful gesture to make some dishes for her if you can.
      3) Be a compassionate listening ear. This is going to be a tough transition. Let her vent when she needs to and don’t offer advice unless she asks.
      4) If she likes love notes, write her several and give them to her on a regular basis. My husband keeps cards from me in his glove box and re-reads them when he’s having a hard night at work. He loves them.

    2. WellRed*

      I find it hard to believe the union can’t do something about this. Was the company always operational seven days a week?

    3. ...*

      Could they go on strike? Or protest in some way? Isn’t that part of what unions are for? It seems as though the company is acting purposefully obtuse about it. There needs to be a real conversation about why it is those days now.

    4. Former Union Member*

      I’m surprised they didn’t negotiate higher pay on Sundays – when I was in a union we got double pay for work on Sundays and holidays. They should check state laws and union deals on that issue.

    5. Gumby*

      Does she hate the 10 hour days or just that they fall on weekends? I ask only because you mentioned that she’s working longer hours – which is true on a daily basis but not true looked at weekly. It’s probably good to clarify exactly what she hates (well, all of the workers) because it informs you what is the better fight next renegotiation – go back to 8 hour days or work only on week days.

      Working weekends can be super annoying since many of the social things you want to do fall on weekends. But there are positives. For me one of the very few perks of my long stint of unemployment was grocery shopping without the weekend crowds. Also hiking/beach going. Will it still be the pits to work a F-M schedule? Sure. But if you can find a moment of goodness here and there it might make it more bearable.

      1. valentine*

        Does she hate the 10 hour days or just that they fall on weekends?
        I think it’s the latter. The workers wanted long weekends and instead of seeing the benefits of operating on fewer days, the company retaliated. The union really dropped the ball here, leaving something so vital up to the company.

        T.J.T.: If the union hasn’t tried to change this, that’s something to suggest. Maybe you can help GF think of benefits to being free on weekdays during business hours.

    6. bunniferous*

      I am wondering how on earth they can basically prevent the entire plant from being able to attend religious services. That pretty much would affect the three major religions and possibly others. Could that be a pushback point?

  111. Can I hear a Wahoo?*

    tl;dr: Non-profit folk: how do you navigate giving $$ back to your own organization?

    there’s been a lot of talk in my office lately about staff members who “really should be giving more” to our own annual campaign. The talk doesn’t leave the development office (I’m development adjacent,) but it makes me feel kind of awkward because my own gift is relatively small. But I donate to other organizations outside the one I work for, and participate in a family giving circle that takes up a good chunk of my giving budget. While I love my org’s mission, I feel like the amount I give (under $50) is right for me. I make about $55k.

    How have others dealt with this? I don’t want to have to justify my giving, nor do I want to negate the frustrations of my colleagues.

    1. Not Today Satan*

      I don’t think employees should give to their own organization, unless maybe they’re C-level. The work we provide at a reduced rate of what we’d get in the for-profit world is our gift to the organization. I raise small donations from my friends and family but don’t give directly.

      If I were you I just wouldn’t bring it up at all. They’re the ones stepping out of bounds by making assumptions about people’s budgets and financial priorities.

    2. Remember Neopets?*

      Yikes. You are under no obligation to give at all, so do not let anyone make you feel badly. Non-profits like to use employee giving as a way to show the board and outside organizations how committed their employees are. “Look at us! We do such great work that 100% of our employees gave for a total of $100,000. Everything is awesome! You should definitely give us more money!” Even though that logic is bananas. Regular businesses don’t ask their employees for money to buy lightbulbs. Non-profits shouldn’t do it either.
      But anyway, employee giving at the individual level should be kept anonymous from other employees, except for the people running the campaign and processing the gifts. If they say anything to you, act surprised that they know what you gave at all and just say “I don’t feel comfortable sharing my financial information with you.” And then let it go. A non-profit never died because you gave $50 instead of $100. They should be looking to engage donors not hassle employees.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        Love your username. I DO remember Neopets, thank you. I wonder if my critters have starved to death by now.

    3. rageismycaffeine*

      I’m in fundraising at a university. We have a big annual fundraising month (yes, month) and all faculty/staff are encouraged to contribute, to the point that we actually have a competition for what department has the highest % of donors. The fundraising department is required to contribute because it looks bad if we don’t have 100% participation. it doesn’t matter the size of the gift.

      The CFO has thrown up a big middle finger to the idea of a competition, by distributing $1 bills to all of the people in his department so they can contribute and get their % up. Our gift processor absolutely HATES it, and I get that, but I also think it’s an absolutely hilarious way to protest trying to get everyone to contribute to a campaign.

      Anyway. I think the gossipers in your office complaining about how much people give can take a long walk off a short pier. You have the right to donate your money to whatever causes you want, and have no cause to feel awkward. Maybe the next time you overhear this conversation you could point out to them that people have other charitable causes they might wish to donate to, without identifying yourself and your own preferences? Or you could mention it to your manager/HR. It’s a crappy kind of guilt-trip for people to be doing, and it IS gossipy.

      1. Remember Neopets?*

        HA! I have gift processing responsibilities at a non-profit and I would scream if people were making $1 gifts. Actually scream. Out loud. In the office.

        1. rageismycaffeine*

          I absolutely 100% understand that. I am very sympathetic to both sides. It’s so crappy (esp as this is one of the biggest departments on campus pulling this) but on the other hand it’s a clever protest on the CFO’s part, and the fact that we haven’t taken the hint and stopped pushing this so hard means the gift processor will keep having a hellish month every year.

    4. Lucette Kensack*

      15+ year nonprofit veteran here.

      I do not donate to my employer. It seems sort of absurd to me for them to process payroll to me, have both my employer and me pay taxes on my salary, then send a sliver of it back to them. Let’s just consider the much lower salary (relative to folks who do my work in the corporate sector) my $30k/year donation instead.

      I do know that development is a different animal. It’s standard practice in the fundraising world for major gift officers (and nonprofit executives who make their own asks) to make meaningful gifts to their employers, so they can speak with integrity about their own giving when meeting with potential donors.

    5. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      At the nonprofit I used to work at, employee giving expectations were in the performance evaluation rubrics or job description. Not just that they gave, but the amount of money each role was supposed to give.

      One of them had a spreadsheet with everyone’s year-over-year amounts, and it was pretty aggressively enforced. Give the wrong amount and your career was OVER.

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        HECK. NO.

        That’s terrible management (as I’m sure you know). Just…no. I think I threw up in my mouth a little reading about that.

    6. Lena Clare*

      Donate and use gift aid.
      Volunteer your time.
      Encourage family members and friends to donate and volunteer if possible and if they believe in the mission too.

    7. Note to self*

      I can’t really comment on your work issue, but I’m very interested in your family giving circle. If you have a minute, could you explain how that works?

  112. Dr. Glowcat Twinklepuff*

    I just want to thank people for the advice over the semicolon! I read all the comments, even if at some point I stopped replying, and saved them for future reference. I also ended up shortening a few of my sentences in the text, just for safety. I submitted on Tuesday, and of course the submission API broke down and it took me two days to complete it. Whatever. It’s gone now. Thanks a lot, everyone!
    Someone suggested to check the journal’s style guide: I found it, that was the obvious solution I did not think about. I will also buy Strunk & White as soon as I’m back home.
    Special thanks to Close Bracket and msgumby: I was not even hoping that two scientific editors would pass by.
    I really appreciated all the help, and I was very amused at the number of people ready to debate over a semicolon. Have a nice weekend, you all!

  113. savannnah*

    When should I follow up next with a long term job application? I’ve been in informational interviews and then a series of consultant meetings with a large academic institution for about 2 years now. At our last meeting at the end of August the director I’ve been consulting for finally let me know they got funding approved for a full time position. She asked me what my dream job would be with her center, we outlined a number of goals and functions and then she asked me to send my resume so they can match the job description to it and said they should post something by October. I’ve checked in with them once early- October and the post was still working it’s way through approval. When do I reach out again?

    1. Blueberry Girl*

      I would reach out again in early December (I would say end of Nov. but that’s Thanksgiving) if you haven’t seen anything by then. Until then, I would proceed as though it is not going to happen and apply elsewhere or do whatever else you plan to do if this doesn’t go through. You can’t wait on them indefinitely and if you do, you’ll get resentful of their process. Hiring is so often long, slow and weird in higher ed.

  114. DNDL*

    My work just announced that we will not have the 4th of July off in 2020. We will get Friday, July 3rd off in observance, but we will be expected to report into work on Saturday, July 4th.

    This is in addition to being told that our traditional Saturday-Monday closure for Labor Day will be shortened to just Monday.

    This is a public library. We haven’t received a COLA in over 6 years whereas all library systems around us have. And now we are being told to work more days on Labor Day because “That’s what the other library systems nearby do.” Well, the other library systems also get the 4th of July off (and the 3rd, since the 4th is a Saturday!). And the other library systems get Veteran’s Day off…

    I just feel so small and undervalued.

    1. Blueberry Girl*

      I’m sorry you feel that way. That’s an awful way to feel. If your work is regularly making you feel that way, have you considered looking for a different place to work? There’s no reason to stay if you’re not valued.

    2. WellRed*

      Are they *Allowed” to be open on a Federal holiday? Is this just one branch or your whole system?

      2. Clisby*

        Unless it’s a library operated by the federal government, I don’t see how they’d be required to follow federal holidays.

        1. DNDL*

          Never said they weren’t allowed to close on federal holidays. Just that its a shitty way to treat your employees who traditionally get those days off. Not to mention we are a department of a city government, and the rest of the city government gets those holidays.

  115. MLM Woes in the workplace*

    One of my coworkers (CW1) confided in me out of frustration that another coworker (CW2) wasn’t responding to her request to cancel a monthly subscription (for lack of a better word) to a MLM that CW2 got her to sign up for. The monthly cost is over $100, and what it means for CW1 is that she is having troubles making ends meet til next paycheck…to the extent of not having money for the essentials. CW2 seems to be intentionally ignoring CW1’s messages about this. While CW2 is following the company rules about MLMs (not advertising it in the office, not using company time to promote it), there are grey areas that make me nervous about the big picture in addition to this situation with CW1. On Facebook, I can see that CW2 has recruited some of our clients to the MLM, and I worry if she pulls the same stunts with clients who may try to get out of the monthly obligation that the fallout could be significant. CW1 didn’t ask me to do anything, she was just venting, but I wonder if I should bring it up to someone in management due to my other concerns. Should I butt out or say something? I worry my anger/frustration about what CW1 is going through is coloring my opinion of what to do.

    1. Legally a Vacuum*

      I’d advice CW1 to talk to her bank- and let CW2 know that she’s going to do that- there should be ways to cancel other than through CW2.

      1. Anon Here*

        Yes! I recently got my bank to cancel a fraudulent charge by a major company. It can be done.

        If it were me, I wouldn’t tell CW2 first. She’s had enough chances. I would just go straight to the bank, show them some documentation of what happened, and let them handle it.

      2. Colette*

        I’m not sure that’s the right path – CW1 has presumably agreed to the charge, so it’s not fraud. She should either track CW2 down or go directly to the company and notify them that she wants to stop it. (She should also read her contract to find out exactly what she needs to do.)

        1. ...*

          Its not fraud but you can still just cancel the card for being “lost” and anything that’s being re-curringly charged to it will end. No need to claim fraud here!

          1. Colette*

            Banks have been known to redirect approved charges from one account to another one owned by the same person. CW1 needs to deal with it at the source.

        2. Natalie*

          Ignoring requests to cancel is malfeasance and certainly something many banks could help you with. As long as the coworker is clear about the situation, there’s no harm in contacting her bank.

        3. Arts Akimbo*

          It’s fraud if CW1 has repeatedly asked CW2 to stop the order and CW2 is ignoring her! She should definitely take it up with her bank. They will be helpful.

          The person you should talk to, MLM Woes, is your boss. They need to know CW2 is doing this.

    2. Blueberry Girl*

      I think you can, as Legally a Vacuum suggests, advise CW1 to reach out to her bank to stop the charge on her account. Also, surely there is someone higher in the MLM scheme that CW1 can speak to. However, I would also stay out of this. It is not your battle to fight beyond some advice to Cw1. This is not your mess to clean up.

    3. LGC*

      Woof.

      I would not get directly involved with the situation between CW1 and CW2. But…does the MLM have a way to cancel that doesn’t involve going through the sales rep? I’d suggest that CW1 try that before doing a chargeback through the bank.

      I also find it concerning that CW2 is promoting this to clients, and I’m less sure that this is something you should stay out of here. Never mind that she’s following the letter of the rules – if anything should be mentioned to management, it should be that. I’d take some time to chill out, though, just so you don’t say anything too hasty.

      1. WellRed*

        I agree management should be given the heads up about the client aspect. I honestly don’t see how she recruited clients without it being on company time or using company resources.

        1. MLM Woes in the workplace*

          As far as I know, client and CW2 are friends on Facebook, but the way they became FB friends is through working together in a client/provider relationship.

      2. MLM Woes in the workplace*

        I wasn’t very clear in my post, but the client aspect is what I am most concerned about, and what my “should I say anything” question is really about. CW1 and CW2 can deal with their issue among themselves.

        1. valentine*

          I wonder if I should bring it up to someone in management due to my other concerns.
          Yes. Don’t name CW1, unless you have to, to avoid derailing. Emphasize that your concern is for your client(s) and company. You happen to know about the one client, but CW2 could have multiple streams of contact with others.

    4. ...*

      She should cancel the credit card or debit card used and get a replacement, just cut them off at the source. I think its ok to be frustrated for her MLM’s take advantage of people

  116. DKK*

    I’ve accepted a job offer at one company. I was scheduled for a second interview at another company next week. These are both jobs I was very interested in, but I think the one I accepted is a better option at the moment. I want to follow up with the one I won’t be taking, but make sure they understand that I was very interested in their job and really appreciate their time. (I realize now, that would probably have been easier to do when I had an offer, but hadn’t accepted it yet, but I didn’t think of that in time, so here I am.) Any thoughts on what to say?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      “I wanted to let you know that I’m withdrawing my candidacy for the Llama groomer position as I’ve accepted a role with another company. Thank you for taking the time to meet with me, I really enjoyed learning about the position and the work you do; I was especially intrigued by your alpaca perming techniques. Best of luck with filling the position and your future endeavors.

      Thank you,
      DKK”

      Something like that! Tweaked to fit the role and your voice, of course. And don’t feel bad about not withdrawing before you had accepted an offer, that’s just smart and looking out for yourself.

      Oh and congrats on the new role!

  117. NeonDreams*

    My self evaluation of my performance for 2019 is due by the end of the month. This year has been hell in a hand basket work wise. I want to be honest but not rant until the end of time. A lot of the decisions being made are out of my management’s hands, but I’m still a bit angry. There’s only so many times you can hear, this is how it is, we can’t change it and not be a little upset. Anyone have any ideas or advice? Thanks!

    (Yes I’m job hunting but it’s taking time.)

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Someone gave me good advice about writing a self-evaluation after a chaotic year – don’t write about what you didn’t do, write about what you did do.

      Instead of saying “oh I had plans to get this project done and I could have except management made decisions that negatively affected me so I was only able to start it”, you say “Outlined and began executions on a plan to reduce llama shedding waste”, completely leaving out the part where your plans got messed up.

      This review should not be a rant, but a positive spin on all the things you were able to do and did, despite a chaotic environment. “Took on extra work to balance out the workload with a reduced team count” “Coordinated multiple projects while balancing shifting team roles/priorities/etc” ” “Demonstrated flexibility when working with a changing work environment” , etc! I bet you have a ton of examples of all the great things you were able to do, even if they were just in the name of survival.

      Best of luck with the job hunt!

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I would say: Write out the rant (possibly not on a work computer) to get it out of your system and clear your brain space. Then pull pieces from that rant, using the framework/lens that A Simple Narwhal suggested. This way, you aren’t trying to edit yourself as you write.

      I call this the “clay pottery” method of writing: Brain dump the “clay”. Even cover the screen if you have to, so you aren’t able to edit for content or typos. Then shape and shave away the excess until you have “pottery.”

  118. Sherlock*

    I have been working at my company for just over a year. A couple of months ago our local team and our corporate team split offices and the corporate team moved. I was a corporate employee and the CEO decided that he didn’t want me to move and changed my title/job and kept me in Denver. (Everyone fought it, my boss, HR, Executive assistant, etc he just seemed to not like me because I didn’t kiss his ass and probably because of tattoos) In the time that they were deciding if they wanted to move me or not they did a slew of horrible things. ie posting my job on our website with my current job description, saying it was an accident but not doing anything to change it, etc.

    Basically I have been burned by this company and no longer feel welcome. My problem is all of this has become really triggering for my depression and it is now worse than it has been in years.

    I am working on getting help but this job is draining everything out of me. Everyday is miserable and everyone telling me they “miss me” and how amazing the new office is is really awful. All of the work friends I had made I don’t see and rarely speak to me. On top of that they “split” my position but gave the new person practically zero work, which means I am still doing a corporate job but not at the corporate office, so I am not really included in the local office either.

    I have been looking for jobs but fear that I am not in a place mentally do be successful but my current job is destroying my mental health. I have even looking into going on leave to get help so I can get away for a time but I honestly can’t afford it and I think they would let me go if I did that (Another office had someone go on maternity leave and they decided that they didn’t need her anymore and let her go)

    Any ideas on what my next steps should be?

    1. Anon Here*

      I would find something else ASAP even if it’s just a temporary thing to fill a gap. I would not recommend staying based on what you described. Get out.

      And give yourself some TLC. Focus on recovering from depression. Do whatever you can to improve your health. You deserve to feel good. And you deserve better than what you’re dealing with right now at this company.

    2. That'll happen*

      Well you’ve been at your job over a year and it sounds like it’s a company with more than 50 employees so you should qualify for FMLA. Do you have access to short-term disability insurance? I had to take a month off earlier this year because my work situation was affecting my mental health so badly. I live in a state that provides short-term disability so I was able to make ends meet while I was out.

      I’d see your doctor and get some leave. Use it to disconnect from work and apply for jobs. You obviously have to look at the whole picture, but this job is not worth sacrificing your health. Good luck!

  119. Have to be Anon for this one*

    Lots of layoffs at my company (and several other companies under our corporate umbrella) this week.
    My entire department was spared but (shockingly) we don’t feel safe.
    To add insult to injury, we just received a bunch of junk for employee appreciation week a few weeks back and today there is a “benefits fair” and “chili cook-off” that we have received a bunch of emails on. A whole 4 people participated and a couple higher-ups are grumbling about it.
    Morons.

  120. Sleepy*

    Small stakes question here…in an open office environment, is it acceptable to jump into conversations you’re not part of?

    I work in a small open office with a meeting/conference table in it. We have a space which is available for private meetings but it is in a basement so not the nicest environment. When I have meetings/conversations at the conference table, a coworker who sits nearby will sometimes jump in and comment on what I’m saying, with comments like, “Oh, I didn’t know that.” She doesn’t do this when it’s a meeting with external partners or clients, just internal meetings.

    I find it irritating, but I wonder if by choosing to meet in a shared space, I’m signaling that the content is not private.

    1. Artypical_Mind*

      I also work in a semi-open office environment. Here the convention is that it depends on the topic of conversation. If the conversation is work related, you don’t jump in unless you have something relevant that people in the conversation weren’t aware of themselves. (ie: If I was transitioned to a new project, but you’re discussing some work I did on the old one, but didn’t pull me in because you weren’t aware I was the one who did it, I would jump in.)

      If you’re chatting for a few minutes on the way back from the coffeemaker about some common topic (sportsball, the latest superhero movie, etc), other people are free to jump in.

      These are usually conversations around the workstations, as we still have separate conference rooms if not cubicles and offices.

      1. valentine*

        Tell them to butt out of meetings, as they presumably would if there were walls around the conference table.

  121. Anon Here*

    First east coast winter in quite a while. It is COLD. I’m working from home and then I need to get out and talk to people about work stuff. Fortunately, my landlord just came over, which was a welcome break from the, “Uh, I’ll just crawl under a blanket . . . ” mentality I had been battling. I’m working on an art project that involves drawings of knives. I had to quickly hide the “knives.” I don’t think he saw them.

    Anyway, I’m REALLY sensitive to cold weather. Strategizing to prevent that from holding me back. I’m going to invest in some new thermals to wear under my clothes so I can keep going even when it’s frigid.

    Also, I miss the sensationalized news about cold weather that we got in Texas and California (“Water could freeze! Stay home from work and don’t drive!”). This is just a regular 30 degree day in the Empire State. (It’s 40 right now, but the wind chill was below 30 this morning.) There will be colder days to come. I have to toughen up and pretend I don’t care.

    Tips for staying focused, organized and productive when working solo and managing your own time?

    1. Witchy Human*

      It’ll get easier! Thermals are great. Invest in really good gloves and try those little warming pads. It’s amazing what a difference just having your hands, feet and ears completely warm enough will make. Carry chapstick and a drink–being out in the cold can make you dehydrated.

      My favorite thing about winter in cold areas (I used to live in Minnesota) is that below a certain temperature all sense of fashion can go out the window. It’s the only upshot of super cold days: people stop caring what they look like as long as they can stay warm, and it’s kind of freeing. I have a ridiculous puffy coat two sizes too big for me that I only break out when it’s in the 20s.

    2. Lyudie*

      I bought microfleece socks last year and they are THE BEST. Toasty warm and comfy, highly recommend. I’m in the southern US (but it gets chilly in the winter, plus my husband likes a chilly bedroom at night) and I sleep in those a lot of nights during the winter.

      1. Clisby*

        My son loves the rabbit wool socks I bought him for Christmas last year. We’re in SC, but even here feet get cold!

    3. BuffaLove*

      Hey, I’m a lifelong upstate NYer, and I have been freezing my ass off for the last few days! It’s always tough at the beginning of winter, and it feels like it came upon us very suddenly this year. Definitely invest in whatever you need to be comfy. A really nice parka, good boots, warm mittens & hat, and thermals are essential!

      1. Anon Here*

        Upstate high five! I used to live in CNY. Now I’m down in NYC. I think we’re getting some of the lake effect?

    4. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I am a great fan of fingerless gloves/mittens. They cover my palms and pulse points on my wrists, but leave my fingers free for typing.

    5. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I’ve been looking at warm clothes for a friend facing her first winter in a cold workplace. There are heated body warmers, heated office chair pads, heated slippers, as well as the passive thermals. Don’t wear jeans. Fleece-lined tights/leggings/sweats are your friend.

      I WFH and use music to manage my motivation. Video game soundtracks are usually wordless (so non-distracting) but slightly driven, energizing, motivating.

    6. Anon Here*

      I appreciate all of these great suggestions! I just stocked up on thermals – three tops and three leggings. I also got a desk lamp. I’m working on making my apartment cozier and cleaner so I’ll feel more focused here.

    7. When working from home*

      Fingerless gloves, a Polartec layer, wool socks, flannel pants, wooly slippers, gas fireplace, heated throw, cup of tea, warm furry dog (may substitute a cat)

    8. Alexandra Lynch*

      Bombas makes lovely cuddly socks. So does Smartwool. In really bad weather (I have Raynaud’s phenomenon) I put on silk sock liners under my wool socks.

      I have ADHD and am spectrum, and it helps me on multiple levels to get routines established for my day and how I do things, and to have order around me. Clutter makes my head cluttered.

  122. LuckyClover*

    I’ve been in my job for almost 6 months and I want to quit. I have been experiencing extreme anxiety and unease in my role, and I am overwhelmed. How do I approach quitting my job after such a short time, knowing I will leave so many balls in the air.

    Here is a quick synopsis. I originally started with supervisor responsibilities, but when a new director was brought on board he moved my only staff member to a new department (leaving me to pick up parts of her role) as well as added two major new projects to my plate. My director is sporadic and hard to keep up with, he fired all of our student interns with no notice and replaced them with his older friends who don’t know how to use the web based tools that I rely on daily, and he is constantly contacting me after hours, and emailed me everything he thinks I have done wrong (IN ALL CAPS) on Friday nights. He brought me into his office for a “5 minute conversation” which was actually a really serious conversation about turning things around or losing my job. I have whiplash from the chaos. I am open to serious conversations, but when he does it theres no guidance on what I am doing wrong, or ways that I can fix it or get help. I don’t think there is room for me to have a reasonable conversation, nor will management provide me any assistance. They really want to see if I sink or swim here.

    I am currently taking night classes part time to do my masters degree. As I get progressively more unhappy here, I am starting to want to jump ship more and more. I could substitute teach for the rest of the year (night school is education).

    However, one concern I have is my work history. This job would be about 6 months, then subbing would be 6 months. Once I finish my degree, I would be looking for work related to that degree. Is that too many changes?

    Also, how do I tell my boss without getting entirely burnt.

    1. Blueberry Girl*

      First off, people quit. If your boss.work can’t handle the reality that people leave jobs, that is there problem. Additionally, the degree program is your prefect excuse. You can always say in interviews, “I chose to leave to sub, so that I could gain more classroom experience and have more focus on my graduate work.”

      As for your current boss, I would decide how you think he would react to 2 weeks notice, but be financially prepared to leave sooner if it is untenable.

    2. Kiwiii*

      Honestly, I don’t think it’ll matter because the work related to that degree will make it look as though the short subbing stint was obviously intentional and holding place until you graduated. People have all sorts of bizarre work histories because of school reasons.

  123. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I’m in the thick of trying to complete our holiday party plans. Shout out to all the event planners out there. You are saints and I could never do your job [you already know this but whatever, I am but a basic naughty horse and you are a classy golden horned unicorn]

    The curse of finally finding an activity that everyone wants to do…then feeding us unwashed heathens. We’re that group that’s too big for a walk in and too small for an entire rental of a venue.

    1. 1234*

      Can you do a partial rental? You don’t need to do a buy-out of a restaurant.

      For example, a team of 15 – 20 can easily fit in a restaurant’s private room with one long table but would be too big as a walk-in and too small to rent out the entire venue.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        We’re at 25 people.

        So we have to expand to a partial buyout of a larger space.

        Catch is we’re in an area with limited options. We wanted Mexican food but all places cap at 15-18. And don’t take reservations for the night we need.

        So I branched out into “nice place” who can accommodate.

        Only nonnegotiable is must have cocktails as well as beer.

        So few large spaces! So even a partial buyout is hard

        Last few years we did catering at our event. But we couldn’t get a suite for our sports event… and therefore no catering options. I could just tell everyone we’re eating concessions but in all seriousness we want a meal. Last year the meal was…not good (not my fault. Boss set that up.) But they’ve got long memories!!

        1. 1234*

          I wish I knew what area you were looking in otherwise I would totally help you out! I love stuff like this. I hope the food this year is a lot better :)

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            I found a good place nearby finally!

            The thing I hate most is just having to approach people knowing they may have to tell me no. Some people are very good at saying “I’m sorry we cannot accommodate.” which is fine…others are like “Uh. What? Uh. No. GTFO byeeeee.” which spikes my anxiety!

            1. HR Stoolie*

              Good to hear you found something. Don’t know if the International District would work for you but we’ve found locations that have worked well for us.
              Got to like the Sushi!

              1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

                These people would sacrifice me to the devil himself if I tried to feed them sushi!

                We’re a very blue collar crew. “RAW FISH” ‘It’s not all raw” “La la la la cannot hear you RAW FISH!”

                But man…I wish. I would drag these suckers to hot pot if I could get away with it but “what dis tho?”

                I got a pizza with pesto awhile ago and the eyeballs were popping out lol “what dis slime tho?” “It’s fine, we have vegetarians.” “Why’s it green tho?!”

  124. What would you do*

    So I’m actively looking – but my eyes are set on finding a job with the govt. I’ve been getting interviews and I feel that I just need to be patient and I’ll probably get my foot in the door, even if that means changing my career stream temporarily and work my way towards my original career.
    Then, I got invited to talk about a job opening and I feel almost obliged I should apply.
    But, even if I did get the job there and find something with govt, I’ll most likely leave.
    I don’t know what to do. I’m not sure if I’ll ever get something with govt, it might be years until I finally land a job there, but it might be also soon that I’ll disappoint my new employer.
    What would you do?

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      As someone for whom it took about 18 months to land a federal government job (and I knew someone who said it took her applying on-and-off for 10 years(!) before she got an offer), I think your instinct to go have this conversation is a smart one. Please don’t feel weird about accepting an opportunity to talk about a job opening, because a conversation is not a commitment. Since you have no idea how long it will take you to get a government job, carrying on your job search as usual is a smart strategy. If you find something that’s attractive, take it, but continue to apply to government openings. As you said, “it might be years.” You could even change your mind about wanting government employment after a while.

    2. New AAM fan*

      Do what’s best for you now. You never know what the future may bring. Government jobs can take many months from application to start date.

  125. Thany*

    A few weeks ago, I posted a question to the open thread about how to navigate my job over the loss of my pregnancy. I don’t know if anyone remembers. I wanted to follow up and thank everyone who responded. The responses were very compassionate and kind at a time when I was falling apart. So thank you.

    We did end up losing the baby. It’s been incredibly hard. I came back to work this week, and that’s been difficult to manage. But I referred back to everyone’s advice, and it was very helpful.

    Thank you again.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Thank you for this update. I’ve been thinking of you. I’m so sorry for your loss and hope that you and your partner are surrounded by the love and compassion you deserve in this time of mourning.

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I am so sorry for your loss. I hope you and spouse are being very kind to yourselves at this very raw time.

      “It doesn’t get better, but you get better at it.”

  126. Dee Dee*

    Is anyone familiar with a “center of excellence” operational model?

    I work in a large corporate environment on a digital design and development team. We’re undergoing a minor re-org—no change in head count, but some movement in terms of reporting. The team I lead is remaining more or less unchanged but we have been identified as a “center of excellence.” So far, nobody’s actually explained what that means in actual practice, and when I ask, I keep getting told it’s still getting sorted out. Any ideas?

    1. Allison*

      I have been and am currently part of a center of excellence. It means nearly nothing in with the two companies that have used it. Just another way of reorging without changing anything. Also might be slightly jaded about it :)

    2. user412*

      Normally, there are teams that deliver one product/ service but a lot of it.

      It’s good if you want to specialize, not so good if you want to have a bit bigger focus.

  127. Serious Pillowfight*

    I complained a while ago about being paid less than a male coworker. I’m happy to report we got a new department head (current employee who was promoted) and I took my case to him and he corrected the salary discrepancy! Thanks to everyone who offered advice and to Alison who armed me with the best way to conduct myself and knowledge of what information to present when asking for a raise.

    3. Anonymous Celebrity*

      This is wonderful to read! I’m very happy for you. And I hope this raised the issue with management so that such gender-based pay discrepancies don’t happen again in the future.

  128. Seattle lowfodmaps*

    Hello! I’ve found myself on the way to Seattle for a work-related trip. Any recommendations for low FODMAP (IBS) friendly restaurants? Any suggestions welcome! I can do sushi. Will likely be in the city and doing some touristy stuff near Pikes Place.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We have a million sushi places. Seriously throw a stone and hit one if you’re around Pike Place.

      I wish I could give you a real recommendation but I’m south and don’t get up there much.

    2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      I strongly recommend:

      * A Burger Place, right near the University of Washington campus at 4234 University Way NE.

      * If you’re willing to take the ferry to Bremerton (nice ride in and of itself, by the way), Boat Shed Restaurant has great fish (and other things) and wonderful seaside views — and outdoor seating available to boot. 101 Shore Drive.

      Have a great trip!

  129. Life as a Tech Person in a Low Tech Nonprofit*

    me: look guys, I made this report that automates something you used to take days to do!
    my coworkers, including management: never thank me in any way or ask questions, choose to continue doing things the manual way, my work exists simply out in the void
    me: cries and job hunts

    1. Kiwiii*

      oh nooooo. can you bring the new thing to one slightly saavy coworker or a specific manager and be like “here’s how this saves time?” maybe you just need to find the right early adopter.

      best of luck on that job hunt.

    2. Anon Here*

      I’ve been there. It was always, “But you’re younger so you were born with those skills,” while male co-workers younger than me were praised for their techie but easier contributions. It had a sexist bent to it. “You didn’t do that. It’s your generation or something they did to you in college.” I was born in the 70’s, and I learned most of my tech skills on my own.

      You just have to: a) educate people, and b) get out and find people who will appreciate you. The latter does exist.

      1. Life as a Tech Person in a Low Tech Nonprofit*

        I’m a woman too and I totally feel you there. At least here I work alone, but at my last job I had a male counterpart. Everything he did was indicative of his genius. If I did something, they assumed it wasn’t that hard, because I did it. It was so demoralizing.

        Here people just lack the understanding to know the work that goes into what I do.

    3. ten-four*

      Okay I ADORE my project manager that creates spreadsheets that automate things. You will find a place where you are celebrated and valued for this A+ amazing skill. It is seriously the best and your company is the worst.

      1. SigneL*

        well, of course, Life as a Tech Person – you’re taking away their jobs. “What will we doooo?” You think you made their jobs easier. They think they’ll be replaced by a spreadsheet.

        1. Life as a Tech Person in a Low Tech Nonprofit*

          Not really. Direct social services/counseling roles are some of the most secure jobs vis a vis automation.

  130. crumpet*

    I had been given a dozen tickets to a concert for a musician that’s played a lot on the radio. I wasn’t interested so I decided to just send an email out at work saying that if anyone wanted to go they can just let me know. A bunch of people emailed me almost immediately and they were all gone within 10 minutes. The day after I got a bunch of weird comments from coworkers guilt-tripping me.

    Here’s the most recent one:
    “Oh, I heard you’re giving a pair of tickets to Bob. Bob doesn’t even have any kids. It would mean the world to my daughter and her best friend if you gave them to her instead.”

    1. Colette*

      No good deed goes unpunished.

      You’ve done nothing wrong. I’d reply to comments like that with either a puzzled look, or just “The tickets are already spoken for.”

    2. WellRed*

      “Sorry, they are all gone,” with a big smile. If you’re feeling cranky, “I don’t understand, are you saying only people with kids should be allowed to listen to music?”

    4. Kathenus*

      I wouldn’t worry at all about the type of comment you quote. But one thing to consider for future opportunities that we’ve discussed (and intermittently implemented) where I work is to do it as more of a random drawing. We have an organization where many people are not at computers except for a few times a day, so these opportunities were ending up always going to office folks. So we’re trying to use the method more like “please let me know by Thursday if you’re interested, and on Friday we’ll do a random drawing from all those who responded”. This can be a more equitable way to offer things up when time allows.

      2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        Hear, hear!

        Also, some people — especially but not only people with family obligations — need to consult with spouses, significant others, etc, before committing to anything. If that also involves trying to get, say, child care, that consultation may need to be face to face and may involve waiting to hear back from somebody.

        So, “anyone who’s interested, let me know by X date and then we’ll choose/random draw” sounds much fairer.

    5. tangerineRose*

      “weird comments from coworkers guilt-tripping me.” Now you know who some of the passive aggressive jerks at work are. Sorry you had to deal with that.

  131. Legal assistant*

    Any advice for job hunting when the positions you are applying for may seem like a step down? I’m a legal assistant and I’m leaving my job because two of the partners I both support are in a relationship. One of them is married and her husband doesn’t know about the affair. Their relationship is causing all kinds of problems. I currently work for an Am Law 100 firm and the open positions I am finding are all at smaller and what are perceived at less prestigious firms. I would love to find another biglaw job or even stay here working elsewhere but right now it is not looking like an option and I wouldn’t care about taking too big of a pay cut and what would be perceived as a job that is a step down if it meant getting out of here. I can’t stay where I am now. My boss is a long time friend of one of the partners and she thinks I am ‘overreacting’ about the situation. I don’t think my reference will be a good one and so I am also worried about burning the bridge. For the sake of my mental health I need to get out of here. If I am asked about the step down in interviews how can I address it?

    1. Rust1783*

      I did something very similar. I “stepped down” from being a director at one organization to being an exec assistant at another organization. And I was essentially fleeing a bad situation at the first organization. In your case I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying that you wanted to move from a large and prestigious firm to a smaller one, with all the changes in structure and responsibility that come with such a change. I’m sure you could think of some positive differences – maybe even a lot of them – between your current job and what a new such job would look like. Focus on those things. There’s also nothing wrong with talking (respectfully, professionally) about the difficulty of interpersonal conflicts and personality issues at your larger, “fancier” current job.

      I don’t mean to question your judgment but I think there’s a degree to which you need to be reallllly certain for yourself that this kind of move will be a good one. Leaving one bad situation for a different kind of bad situation (e.g. a bad organizational fit) is a genuine risk, and the devil you know etc.

    2. Kiwiii*

      You just need to give a reason to interviewers that is true, it doesn’t have to be the Actual reason. “I think a smaller company is a better fit for me right now” “I’m looking for a role that includes X, which mine doesn’t right now.” “I just need to try somewhere new (this one’s only really fine if you’re in school or it’s been more than 3 years)” “I’m really interested in your company because of Y” are all fine and shouldn’t set off any alarm bells.

    3. SpellingBee*

      Honestly, I don’t think anyone is going to perceive going to a smaller firm as a “step down” for a legal assistant, and I’m saying this very kindly and as someone who was a legal assistant for 40 years. I’ve worked in big-law, small-law and in-between-law in major cities across the country, and not once did an interviewer ask anything other than the general why was I leaving my current position. Also, working for a smaller firm may not mean a pay cut; I found that sometimes the pay was better, and I discovered that I preferred working in small to mid-sized firms rather than the behemoth firms. In fact, the best job I ever had was the last one before I retired, at a firm with fewer than 40 attorneys (at the time, it’s slightly bigger now). They gave me a lot of opportunities for growth, which I took full advantage of and actually parlayed into remote contract work for the firm after I retired.

      I can certainly understand why you’re looking, and Rust1783 and Kiwi had excellent suggestions on how to address that in an interview. My advice is keep it simple.

  132. Rust1783*

    I am struggling in my new job. I used to work in an industry that is beloved by some people, and which I had tons of experience in, but which is basically dying – think, local newspapers or symphony orchestras. I was demoralized by the state of the industry, even though I was very successful at all my jobs.

    So I moved to a different state and took a job in a different industry that is distantly related to the first. (Like, if I had been at newspapers, now I am in the printing/binding industry.) I thought this would be an opportunity for learning and growth, but all that’s happened is that I feel disconnected from my own skills and expertise. My work isn’t hard exactly but I can’t get excited by it, and I feel overwhelmed by things that are truly new to me. (For example, there’s an extraordinary degree of sensitive “customer service” that does not come naturally or easily to me.)

    I am starting to feel alienated by the job itself, even though I have supportive coworkers and training opportunities and so on. It’s been almost a year, and I’m getting worried that I’ve made a terrible mistake. I have never felt so un-confident at work before and its nudging me into depression. I live in a great city, have hobbies I love, a wonderful partner, but this negativity is building up around my job and it’s making it even harder to do well than it already was.

    I guess I’m open to advice, but I’m really just venting. This all fits into an upsetting pattern for me of never being truly happy with a job. I have never – not once in my life – felt excited at the prospect of going to work in the morning. I have tried various forms of therapy but nothing has really helped; all I end up doing is switching jobs every 2-3 years when my frustration and anxiety get to be too much.

    1. Pam*

      Maybe the answer is to not be excited about your job, but to look on it as something necessary to fund your life- the great partner, interesting city, cool hobbies. It’s okay for a job to be just a job.

      1. Rust1783*

        This is good advice but it’s something I’ve always had difficulty with. Particularly in my previous industry, my work was very caught up in my identity – many people in this line of work are the same way – and it was very hard to disentangle them. Like, my job was closely related to my true deepest passions and it took a decade for me to accept that I would not be able to change anything in the industry and I needed to move on. It’s been hard to flip that switch off.

    2. Kiwiii*

      I’m sorry that the job is frustrating and alienating. My last job was supposed to be an “in” to an industry and all I really learned from it was that I hated it. I only lasted 9 months and don’t think I would have happily made it the 2 years I told myself I should stay in the role.

      It might be helpful to think about the things you’ve learned from the role — particularly that you don’t care for the sensitive customer service aspect. That’s something you know to try to avoid when looking for whatever’s next. Maybe you look for something in the first industry again, maybe you find a space in the middle or another step further on from new industry. Maybe you find a lateral or slightly up move that could be a viable possibility. You’re not out of options because this move wasn’t the right one, it’s just frustrating because it was the wrong one.

      Another thing to think about it that most people aren’t truly happy with the work that they’re doing. They find places that they’re fine with or good at or can make decent money at and then they find hobbies or interests or groups to spend time with outside of that that Are fulfilling to them. There’s a huge narrative of “you should do what you love” but it’s terribly grating and untrue for most people. There’s no perfect job for a lot of people, sometimes they’re just jobs and that’s completely okay.

  133. Chardonnay*

    I left a toxic job (and my country) and got a new job abroad (in the country where my boyfriend lives). This place is known for having companies with very open company cultures and flat structures.
    I’m very lucky to have landed a position in a company that champions healthy workplace cultures and takes its values very seriously. I love this but also struggle with how openly they communicate and how much company values (think being open, fair, a team etc.) and clearly set goals govern their every day actions. I come from a disorganized company with terrible management (assigning meaningless projects so people feel pressured, expecting to stay in the office until late otherwise you are not taking your job seriously, using horoscope and tarot cards in HR, bullying, etc.) and with the expectation to keep as much information as possible for your team only because who knows who will use it against you.
    Now the thing is, I need some time to adapt and stop thinking that we are all working against each other. How do I communicate this to my boss? I’ve only been here for a few weeks and I’d like to bring this up at our 1-month check-in. How can I proceed without badmouthing my previous employer? I’m thinking to bring up specific cases where I didn’t feel confident because of past experiences/different expectations previously. My boss has never pointed out anything that I should do differently but I’d like to let her know that this is something I need to pay extra attention to.

    1. WineNot*

      Well, if sounds like you are now in a WAY better company than you were before, so that’s great! “Being open and fair” probably also includes being understanding and also just plain nice. I think moving from any job to somewhere new takes a period of adjustment and I am sure they will understand that. You don’t have to look at it as bad-mouthing your past employer to get the point across. Look at it as sharing the work environment you came from and how competitive and negative it was, but how much you’re excited to be in a new, healthier, positive environment, and while it may take you some time to adjust, you must be excited about to learn and hear constructive feedback. Good luck in your new job and home!

    2. tape deck*

      I think you can just say this company has a different culture than your last one, without getting into the nitty gritty of how awful they were. So instead of, “We kept info to ourselves because it would be used against us,” you could say something more mild like, “There wasn’t an expectation that we would be sharing that kind of info on a regular basis,” or whatever. Also, given that you moved countries, your boss probably already figures you have some culture shock to adjust to.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Would you be able to focus on the positive side of the differences and how you’re feeling like you want to keep an eye on yourself to utilize them? For example,

      “It’s such a great change that NewCompany focuses on open communication and setting clear goals. I’m glad to be in this type of a culture and I feel like I slowly adapting to being more open and collaborative. Do you have any feedback on how I’m doing in those regards and what more I could do to align with the team on these areas?” Maybe a bit wordy, but that’s the general idea.

      So, instead of directly saying, “PreviousOrganization was terrible, all about back-stabbing and knowledge hoarding”, you’re saying, “CurrentOrganization is great for being open and communicative.”

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      If you are concerned, you could preemptively go to your boss and just let her know that you are in awe of the team-centric approach the company has and are very pleased with the culture but are having more difficulty that expected adjusting to it because of years of conditioning. You could frame it as being an industry thing or a country thing such as “my previous industry was more silo’d due to confidentiality concerns” or “in my home country roles were highly competitive as opposed to collaborative” if you feel an explanation was needed that didn’t pinpoint your previous employer. For example:
      Hey Boss – I wanted to let you know how much I am enjoying my new role and the culture here at Awesome Job. I am noticing that this team is a lot more collaborative that I am used to and I’m not adjusting as quickly as I’d expect since it was something I was absolutely looking for in an employer. Where I come from it was an “every person for themselves” situation and I hated it but apparently I’ve been conditioned to default to that stance. I really want to succeed here and am working hard to adapt to the culture and open up about my work but please let me know if there is anything I need to address more specifically.

      Your boss might not have noticed or think it is an issue but since it is worrying you, pointing out your elephant might help you adjust better since it will be one less thing you have to think about.

  135. Anxious about my timeline*

    I “verbally” accepted a federal job offer last week (via email) and am currently waiting on my finalized written offer to be sent to me. I’ve checked in with my HR contacts and they’re short staffed this week, so it very well could be next week when it comes through. (They said they would do their best to get it to me by the end of business today (Friday).

    We’ve agreed on a start date of December 9, but I’m relocating to DC from the west coast (not worried about that as I’m single with no kids and have friends in the area I can fall back on) and my preferred timeline would be to finish at my current job November 22 and then have some wiggle room to move and get settled before having to report to my new job on 12/9.

    I have two semi-related questions I’d love to hear some thoughts about: my office observes Veterans Day so we’ll be closed, so it’s a good chance that even if my offer comes through today I won’t be able to talk to my manager about giving notice until next Tuesday-Wednesday. Is it awful to give less than 2 weeks notice? It’s terrible timing because we’re closed two days out of Thanksgiving week and if I don’t have to I really don’t want to work 11/25-11/27. My other thought is, would it be appropriate to let my federal HR contact know the tighter timeline I’m on in hopes they might bump me higher on their task list? I’m hesitant to do that because I know my personal sense of urgency is probably at odds with their thinking that I’m a full month out from starting, and I also know – my mother is an HR professional at a public agency of a similar scale – how large their workload probably is and their priorities are different than mine. I don’t want to be a nuisance when they’ve already been incredibly responsive when I checked in on Tuesday.

    I’m trying not to worry about what I can’t control, but want to be wrapped up at my current job at least a few days before Thanksgiving and am a bit anxious about not being able to give two full weeks. I would appreciate anyone’s thoughts/guidance on this. Other note: I recently had my end of year review and got feedback that I’m doing all my current duties really well and they’re pleased with me, so I do feel I have a little bit of capital/good will built up and don’t think it’d be an automatic burned bridge to give a short notice period. It’s an awkward time of year to switch roles. Thank you!

    1. time for tea*

      Why not push off starting the new job until the following pay period? I think that since you’re doing a cross-country move in the winter, they’ll be understanding. That’ll give you more room to breathe.

      1. Anxious about my timeline*

        When they confirmed my offer (I accepted a conditional offer in the summertime, I’ve been in the process of getting this job since May, it involved being issued a clearance) they gave me 3 possible start dates to choose from and I choose the one that gave me the most breathing room (12/9). I’m also very done with my current role and have been eager to make the transition for a while now. I don’t particularly want to push my start date and end up getting tangled up in the winter holidays.

        1. time for tea*

          How much would you hate having to work pre-Thanksgiving days to have the 2 weeks? Because I don’t have any issue with “oh, some of the days on my two weeks are holidays so I won’t be here”, but you don’t know when the final offer letter will come. Sounds like you’ve been waiting a week for the offer letter, but since Monday’s a holiday, there might be people who are off. I don’t see anything wrong with sending a reminder to your HR contact that you still need to give 2 weeks notice and move across the country, couched as asking if there’s an updated timeline.

          But they’ve been waiting since May. They can wait another two weeks for you to onboard.

          1. Anxious about my timeline*

            Thanks for your reply…the more I think about it I’m ok with working until the Wednesday/day before Thanksgiving if necessary depending on the timing of the offer. I think I’ll also send a polite email over my lunch hour today informing them that I’m relocating and need to put in my two weeks here.

    2. Policy wonk*

      Keep an eye on Congress. We are operating under a continuing resolution, and if it isn’t extended weare facing a shut-down on 11/22.

  136. Mary*

    Four people in my chain of command have quit this year and not been replaced. We are one misplaced banana skin away from being managed directly by the CEO.

    1. lisette*

      Where I work we have no chain of command and everyone is managed directly by the CEO! And there are like 60 of us. No, it does not work well. :/

  137. Dr. Nobody*

    Hi everyone : I want to get your advice. I have a PhD in a social science, and while I like teaching and research I’m thinking about looking for a new challenge outside of academia. Im thinking specifically about jobs in the nonprofit and government sectors, but I’m struggling with what level of jobs to apply for. I think I have a strong set of transferable skills. I’m smart and have strong research and analytical skills, etc. But without a lot of work experience outside of academia do I pursue entry level stuff? Would I be considered for jobs with management responsibilities? Senior level gigs? Any advice is welcome!

    1. It's Me, Margaret*

      Government is actually extremely clear if you’re in the US: GS-11 with no work experience, GS-12 or above if your teaching and research can be connected directly as experience for a particular position.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Would you consider consulting gigs? My non-profit organization works with research consulting firms that hire social scientists on survey design type of stuff (e.g. Learning for Action). I think look at the job description and see what seems like a 50-75% fit. Years of experience are generally listed, along with degree requirements/preferences.

      It’s going to vary by the specific field you want to break into and how strong their candidate pool is. Some places won’t consider academic work real experience. Companies that have more former academics are more likely to count it.

      1. consultinerd*

        Agreed. In my corner of the consulting world, a relevant PhD seems to be approximately equivalent to 3ish years experience, such that while a BS/MS right out of school is a Llama Analyst 1, a new PhD would come in at an Llama Analyst 3 or Senior Llama Analyst title.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      If you’re not sure what kind of jobs you’d qualify for, I’d suggest searching the USAJOBS site (federal) and any state or county sites by job skills or abilities, rather than by a specific job title. I think searching this way will net you the widest possible array of jobs that will use your skills, and will probably turn up at least one or two types of jobs you would have never thought of. After you run these searches daily over the next month or so, you’ll get a better feel for what types and levels of skills agencies are asking for at each grade/step. Once you’ve isolated a range, say at the federal level GS-09 to GS-11, you can use the filtering functions on the site to screen out anything lower than that. Best of luck. Please let us know what you decided to do, and how it’s going.

  138. Rob*

    I’m in a pretty common situation that I thought I could get some input on. I’ll warn you it’s a novel but I provided full background for context:

    Background: I started a new job as a contractor about a month ago after leaving a permanent job I was at for about 4 years but had plateaued and was told by management that there was nowhere to go. I left for a 6 month+ contract gig for a great learning opportunity, much better pay and to get my foot in the door at a really nice company where their policy is to give you a trial run before they commit (I did plenty of investigating and spoke with a couple people who went through similar process here before I made the decision). The understanding when I made this decision was that it was an ongoing need and as long as we both liked each other, worse case scenario would be I would have contract extended (which I’m fine with) or be made an employee. I wasn’t naive and knew that it was a risk at the time but a calculated one.

    Anyway I found out earlier this week that the manager who brought me on has decided to transfer to another role and it has put our whole department in flux. I was initially angry because I found out he knew about this when he interviewed me. But I figured I wouldn’t draw any conclusions until I spoke with him about it. Fast forward to Friday and he pretty tiptoed around all of my questions, which leads me to believe he’s either being untruthful again or really doesn’t know much more.

    Anyway now I’m in a bind where I’m not sure if I should already start looking (Being a contractor I was prepared for possibility but not this soon) after only a month or to ride it out since I’m not sure if I will be getting a fair chance and have been kept in the dark? For the month I’ve been here, I’ve loved the actual work that I’m doing and have learned a lot and being a contractor is nice in that if you need to put in overtime you are well compensated. But my first impressions of my team dynamic already felt odd and with this wrinkle and how I was misled, not sure how to feel or what to do? I could go either direction at this point.

    If I were to start looking right now, would I sound flaky to another potential manager if I explained why I was looking to leave a contract a month in? I should say that I’m a little worried about this because before my 4 year stint at my past role, my past meaningful job roles were either short contract roles which I took to gain experience (paid off after was told that’s what I needed from past interviews when I tried to get roles in past) or a role where I left after a year due to not being comfortable with ethical things company was doing (department I was in got in major legal trouble and execs got dismantled a year after I left). All of these things isolated I feel are justifiable but together make me sound like a flaky job hopper and the only thing I want next is a stable job with growth and learning opportunities. I was really hoping this role would check these boxes and as I mentioned love what they’re having me do and learning a ton, but unsure of uncertainty in department and the thought of being lied to when I was being pitched the role leaves me apprehensive. Anyway thanks for reading and any input would be most appreciated

    -Rob

    1. Colette*

      Your manager is allowed to find a new job. Since you like the work and are otherwise happy, why not sit tight and find out how it plays out? I don’t see any indication that they are going to cut your contract short; why do it to yourself?

    2. Kathenus*

      I understand that you’re ending up in a spot that now has a lot of questions for the future. But I don’t feel that you were misled. Alison gets a lot of questions along the lines of – “I’m interviewing for another job and also bringing on a consultant/planning to attend a workshop/being trained on a new task, should I tell my employer so that I don’t bring on the consultant/go to the workshop/be trained on the new task since I may be leaving?” The answer is always to go forward as if you’ll be there because you don’t know what the future will bring.

      If you like the gig so far, from my perspective I don’t see why you’d need to be thinking about leaving preemptively. I get that you’re in a bit of limbo, but I’d suggest that you just ride with it until/unless the job itself changes to where you don’t like it and not focus on the manager leaving. Staying the course also helps with your concerns about being perceived as a job hopper. Leaving now just because your manager is leaving might be harder to describe than if you left because a new boss went in a different direction or changed the contract. Sounds like overall you’re in a good place so I’d keep my fingers crossed and keep on keeping on. Good luck.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      6 month contracts are pretty easy to explain and hiring can take a long time (see previous poster who is starting in December a job she started the process on in May).
      Maybe wait another month and start looking and simply mention that you have a 6-month contract that is looking like it won’t be renewed and possibly even cut short due to some org changes. A lot of places will be willing to have a start date a few months out.

  139. Skinny Shamed*

    Hello! I work in an office of about 40 people, many of whom are middle-aged, sedentary, and overweight with terrible eating habits that include lots of processed food. I am in my mid-20’s, work out and appear fit, and I eat really healthy and clean. My lunches always consist of a lot of vegetables and just good, healthy food that I cook myself. There is one woman in particular who always happens to be walking around my desk area around lunch time, and she always asks me what I’m eating or just sees it herself. Whenever she does, she always shakes her head almost disapprovingly and makes comments to others about not being able to believe whatever I am eating is good or fills me up or “how do you eat that??”. Literally 5 minutes ago, she saw me cutting an avocado in half while my lunch was in the microwave and ranted about me eating just an avocado for lunch to others for the 3 minutes my soup took to heat up.

    I know fat-shaming is a thing, but has anyone else been skinny-shamed? I usually just laugh it off and tell her “it’s really good, I swear!” She usually just responds by telling me all of the horrible food she ate the night before when she couldn’t sleep. A lot of my colleagues know of my love of cooking and I have brought in homemade lunches for others before. Should I offer to cook for this woman? Is that inappropriate or weird? Would love to hear people’s thoughts!

    1. Colette*

      “Please stop commenting on my food”

      Don’t start cooking for her; she is an adult and can feed herself. But do ask her to stop talking about your food, since she’s being a jerk about it.

    2. WellRed*

      DO NOT OFFER to cook for this woman. However, she’s very rude to comment on your food but sadly this is all too common. You might need a more strongly worded response to shut her down. Even just “You keep commenting on my food. Why do you care?”

    3. Mediamaven*

      As soon as I read middle aged, like that’s a bad thing, I stopped reading. You seem quite judgy yourself.

      1. annakarina1*

        I agree. Judging people for being fat, middle-aged, and having bad diets just makes it look like she’s judging everyone else like she’s the “clean” and “good” one.

    4. time for tea*

      I once had a coworker who was convinced I had an eating disorder because I was skinny and she never saw me eat.

      It’s not like we had a lunch room. I ate my at desk.

      So, yeah, it happens. It’s inappropriate. Just keep reiterating that you’re satisfied with your food and try to redirect the conversation.

    5. Jamie*

      Just tell her to stop commenting on your food.

      And frankly, unless all 40 of them are commenting on what you eat (which I doubt) their choices are no more your business than yours are theirs.

      Also – being middle aged has nothing to do with food, fitness, or nosiness so you might want to examine why you need to be so judgmental yourself.

    6. Parenthetically*

      “middle-aged, sedentary, and overweight with terrible eating habits that include lots of processed food”

      So, yeah, look. It’s not okay to judge people age, bodies, exercise habits, or food. That’s what you’re asking Karen to stop doing, so you need to stop doing it too, even mentally. She’s also not “skinny-shaming” you, she’s obsessing about your food in a weird way that almost certainly reflects her own insecurities/defensiveness about her eating habits and body more than it has anything to do with you in particular.

      That being said, her comments are ridiculous, and it’s perfectly fine for you to nip them in the bud: “Karen, I’m going to stop you right there. First off, I have a bowl of soup in the microwave. Second, even if I were just eating an avocado for lunch, it’s MY mouth and MY lunch!” I think you can also have a broader conversation: “Karen, I need to ask you to stop commenting on my food intake. It feels weird not to be able to just warm up my dang lunch without wondering what you’re going to say about it. I eat the way I want to eat. It’s not a judgment on anyone else, it’s just what I like, and I’d like to be able to eat the food I like in peace without it being subject to scrutiny. Moving forward, is that something we can agree to make off limits?”

      1. LizB*

        ^this. Also, it seems like Karen is trying (badly) to bond with you by chatting about food, since she also tells you about the food she’s eating. After the conversation Parenthetically suggests, you could deploy a subject change to something you really can bond about – sports team? crafts? tv? – if you want to have a more friendly relationship with her that doesn’t revolve around judgments of eating habits.

    7. Lisanthus*

      My thoughts?

      What you’ve written here comes off as openly ageist, judgmental, and holier-than-thou. Maybe this woman is trying to give you a less than subtle hint that the attitude reflected in what you’ve written has been noticed by your co-workers — and NOT in a good way — by making comments about your lunch.

      Should anyone be commenting on anyone else’s food choices? No. But that includes you.

    8. Skinny Shamed*

      Hi! Me again. I’m sorry that people took my descriptiveness the wrong way. I enjoy details so I’m sorry some do not! I am definitely not judging these people for anything, though I wish for their sake they would take it seriously because I care about them. I was just trying to paint the picture that I feel like I am an odd-ball here because I am younger and people feel the need to comment on what I am eating frequently. I would NEVER ever ever comment on what someone is eating ever, and I would never give them disapproving looks.

      Anyway random internet people, thank you for confirming that I shouldn’t offer to cook. Some of these conversations leave me feeling weird and then I become awkward so that probably would have been terrible to ask.

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        Yikes, no. Folks didn’t “take your descriptiveness the wrong way.” The words you chose revealed more about yourself than you intended to reveal (maybe even more than you knew yourself!). It doesn’t make you bad, but it does mean you have some internal work to do.

        “Wish for their sake they would take it seriously because I care about them” is also problematic, btw. You are not their doctor or their closest loved ones. You don’t know how healthy they are or are not. You don’t know why they make the food choices they do, or whether they are “good” or not. Leave them be.

        1. Skinny Shamed*

          But I do know what this woman eats because she seeks me out and tells me about it often. I just don’t get why she does that.

          Maybe I have some internal work to do. Maybe I will ask my therapist what she thinks. But this is an anonymous blog for a reason. It is a place for people to express what they’re feeling in their workplaces and job situations when they CAN’T necessarily say it out loud to their colleagues, obviously because this would be a completely inappropriate and weird thing to bring up. I am asking for advice on how to handle this, not asking for people to dissect every world I wrote and tell me that I’m a judgmental, ageist bitch because of the way I wrote a paragraph. But I guess that’s just the internet in 2019.

          1. Parenthetically*

            “I do know what this woman eats because she seeks me out and tells me about it often.”

            Sure, but that still doesn’t make you her doctor.

            And really, that’s all that’s being said. Flagging the language you’re using as problematic is in no way similar to calling you a “bitch.”

      2. Jedi Squirrel*

        FWIW, I didn’t feel that you were being weirdly judgmental—just trying to set up the contrast. Obviously, you are an outlier in this group, and that’s why you are selected for this behavior. I would find that frustrating, too.

    9. That'll happen*

      I wish people would just keep their opinions on bodies/weight/food to themselves at work, but that isn’t the case. Tell her to stop commenting on your food. If you get pushback, tell her that it makes you uncomfortable. I’ve started doing this when coworkers comment on my body. I simply ask them not to comment on my body and tell them that it makes me uncomfortable. I hate to include that caveat but it seems to smooth things over a bit.

      While you aren’t outwardly judging your coworkers’ eating habits, it’s clear you’re being judgmental of them in your mind, which may be impacting the way you treat them. If your eating habits are none of their business, theirs aren’t any of your business either.

    10. Lucette Kensack*

      First: Skinny-shaming doesn’t exist. I don’t mean to say that folks aren’t sometimes mocked for being slim, but it doesn’t belong in the same category as fat shaming (which is directly connected to institutional discrimination against fat people: things like lower pay, not being allowed to adopt, not being believed when they report medical symptoms to doctors, etc.)

      Moreover: It doesn’t sound like anyone has actually made any comments about your body. She’s rudely commenting on your food, but you’re the one drawing the connection between your “clean” food and your body shape.

      So it sounds like the main thing you need to do is work on your own internalized discomfort with fat people, and your judgmental reaction to what your colleagues are eating. Just as your food is your business, their food is theirs. You’re not telling them about your disgust with their bodies and what they eat, which is a good thing — the next step is to stop believing it at all.

      That being said, she is being rude. Obviously you don’t need to cook for her. What you’re doing now (breezily saying “Well, I like it!”) is good, but if you want to push back harder you could say something like “Wow, you seem really interested in my meals. What’s that about?” or, if it continues, “Please stop commenting on my food. I like it, and I don’t want to keep talking about it with you.”

      1. Skinny Shamed*

        I understand that. She has made comments on my body before, like “what, skinny girl don’t eat?!” and “no wonder you look like that”, and she calls my dad “skinny santa” which I think is hilarious. It’s hard to “stop believing it at all” when it’s what’s been ingrained in me my entire life.

        1. Lucette Kensack*

          I totally get that. We all live in a world that tells us some people are better than others, so it’s no surprise that we engage in unintentional bigotry.

          But it’s also on us — especially those of us in privileged positions, with bodies that look like what society calls “beautiful” or “healthy,” and white folks, and men, and etc. — to ferret it out in ourselves, so we don’t go around accidentally harming people when we’re just acting out the playbook we’ve been given.

          1. Skinny Shamed*

            You’re right. I have NO idea what she deals with health-wise, and I know she has lived with and taken care of her father for a long time and she works really hard at her job. There is a ton of stress right there. I am generally an empathetic person, but this avocado comment today just really bothered me today more than usual for some reason. If she knew the mental struggle I’ve always had with my weight (never eating disorders or anything) then I am sure she would look at her comments in a different light as well.

      2. Jedi Squirrel*

        Ummm…yes it does. Unlike the fallacy of “reverse racism”, there is a spectrum of weight levels, with some being considered too much and some being considered too little. I know a couple of skinny people who eat plenty and are constantly being told to eat more because they don’t eat enough. They are just naturally skinny. They are also really, really tired of the comments.

        So it sounds like the main thing you need to do is work on your own internalized discomfort with fat people

        Just as we shouldn’t fat-shame or skinny-shame someone, we also shouldn’t attribute feelings to them on the basis of a 150-word thread post. I don’t get this feeling from OP at all.

        1. Parenthetically*

          Skinny-shaming only exists within the broader social context of fatphobia, though. THE REASON skinny people are assumed to be anorexic or not eat enough is the same reason fat people are assumed to binge eat — because despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary, people still believe that food and exercise related choices and behaviors are the major contributing factor to body size, and that body size is the primary factor for overall health. People who are very skinny do indeed experience unwelcome commentary in our body-obsessed society (which is obviously wrong), but not the kind of medical or employment discrimination fat people experience.

          Saying that an overweight person commenting on your food choices is “skinny-shaming” is a non-sequitur outside the context of internalized discomfort with fat bodies, because OP’s food choices at work have nothing to do with the size of her body.

    11. CheeryO*

      Skinny shaming is definitely a thing – it comes in two types, the first being, “OMG, you’re eating [bad thing]? I thought you only ate rabbit food! I can’t believe it!”, and the second being, “OMG, is THAT all you’re eating? No wonder you’re so thin! Eat a cheeseburger once in a while!” You can’t win, regardless of what you eat.

      I don’t love the term “skinny shaming,” though, because being thin is still seen as the ideal, so the “shaming” isn’t really coming from the same hateful place that fat shaming comes from. It IS obnoxious, though, and you have a right to shut it down, especially when it’s coming from the same person over and over again. You have to use your words, though.

      1. Close Bracket*

        the “shaming” isn’t really coming from the same hateful place that fat shaming comes from

        It comes from a different hateful place, and believe me, the place it comes from *is* hateful.

  140. Handy Nickname*

    I live in an apartment building and am interested in offering cat-sitting services to my neighbors. I would offer once a day feeding & playtime for $x/day. Has anyone done this or hired someone for this and have any advice or things to be aware of? I would be doing it on my own (thinking poster on the community bulletin board) not as part of a company.

    1. Jamie*

      I don’t know what the process is, but I’d make sure you were bonded and insured before doing this for strangers.

    2. Lyudie*

      A friend of mine does pet sitting and dog training, and she got a background check done on herself and uses that as a sort of selling point. I don’t know exactly how you do that, but something to think about along with being insured etc.

    3. Anon Here*

      I’m currently looking to hire a dog sitter. My advice is to make your sign look as professional as possible and include a way for people to verify your credentials, whether it’s “References provided upon request,” or, “Licensed by Cat Sitters United,” or, “Interned at Local Vet Clinic.” Something, anything, to assure the pet owner that you know what you’re doing and you’re responsible. Maybe see if you can get some kind of background check (Live Scan?) just to show you have no criminal record and can be trusted in people’s apartments when they’re not home.

      Cat Sitter in the Building!

      * Five years’ experience in pet care
      * Verified references and background check
      * Trained in feline health and behavior
      * Vast assortment of toys to share with your furry friend
      * Mom to Tiger and Fluffy

      And include a fun picture. Give it some personality. And list a few contact options.

    4. CatCat*

      I hire a pet sitter and I pay by time. Visits are offered in 30, 45, and 60 minute increments. They scoop boxes, feed, change water, play, and (in the past when needed) administer medications.

      I had to sign an agreement that the pet sitter can take the pet to a vet in an emergency and I am responsible for all vet charges.

    5. Auntie Social*

      My pet sitter texts me once a day showing my monsters doing something. Dog walk or kitty massage or play. Very reassuring that she’s not just ignoring them and watching Dr. Phil.

  141. Bio grad student*

    Has anyone here pursued a career as a medical science liaison after completing a biology PhD? If so, do you have any advice on how to become a competitive applicant for a medical science liaison job? For context, I just started in a biology PhD program, so I’m still ~5-6 years away from graduation.

  142. Migraine Sufferer*

    I get migraines from strong smells. The thing is, I’m really not that sensitive. Very few smells on the planet give me migraines – basically, only bleach and coconut. And so, it has never come up before at work.

    We just got a new coworker who applies coconut scented lotion seemingly every half hour. My eyes water when we have to go in meetings together, and I can tell when she reapplies even 3 cubicles away. I’ve had an uptick in migraines.

    But I feel so weird about just addressing it.
    For one, I really don’t want to ask we go full ‘scent free work place’ when it would inconvenience everyone and its only this one particular scent.
    For another, she is a recent immigrant and she takes great pride in her cultural heritage. The lotion is from her homeland, and she seems to really like it. Plus, there’s a bit of a language barrier. I don’t want her to feel unwelcome! But I also want to be able to tolerate being in the same room with her.

    Any tips for language to use with her? I would feel even weirder going to my boss to have him intervene, since new coworker and I are the only females.

    1. Jamie*

      Please tell her. Wouldn’t you want to know if there was something you were doing that was inadvertently causing pain to someone else. I love the smell of coconut lotion more than almost anything and I’d never apply it around anyone if I knew it bothered them.

      1. Mama Bear*

        I think there’s no good way around it – find a neutral time to talk to her and simply say that the strong scent is triggering your migraines and you’re sorry to ask but could she stop using it in the office, please? If it’s really only those two scents, ask if she can swap to another scent.

    2. LizB*

      You can really just ask! Since it’s such a specific issue, you don’t need to ask for all scent free everything, and you’re not asking her to give up her cultural heritage, you’re asking her to switch lotions to a less-scented or differently-scented product.

      A script: “Hey, Coworker, can I ask you a favor? I have an allergy* to coconut, and I think the lotion you’ve been using is setting it off and making me ill. Would you be able to switch to a different lotion that doesn’t smell like coconut** when you’re at work? I would really appreciate it.” (And if she hopefully says “of course, I’m sorry!” you can follow up with “Thank you so much, I’m sorry to have to ask, I know you must love that lotion! I wish it didn’t set off my allergy.” or something similarly sympathetic)

      *I know it might be medically inaccurate to call this an allergy, but I feel like that’s a more widely understandable term.
      **or “doesn’t have any coconut in it” if just a coconut-oil-based product would be a problem too — I can’t tell from your post if the problem is an artificial scent or the natural ingredient.

      1. Migraine Sufferer*

        Thanks for all the replies everyone.
        I like this script. I just hate being a burden on people but the alternative sucks for me too!

        1. Quandong*

          By asking for accommodations to prevent migraines, you aren’t being a burden to your colleague. It’s a very reasonable request.

      2. Anono-me*

        Maybe call it a ‘reaction’ to coconut?
        (Otherwise, you might wind with people being overly concerned about bringing an almond joy to work.)

    3. Parenthetically*

      I think you say basically what you said here! “Anna, I’m so sorry to have to bring this up — I get migraines, but only from a very few smells, and one of them happens to be coconut! I find I’m getting more migraines because of the smell of your lotion. Would you be willing to stop using it at work?”

  143. ten-four*

    Is there any chance that he’s right to push admin work down to the junior people? He sounds incredibly annoying, but I think it’s worth reflecting on whether he’s appropriately delegating admin work so that he can focus on big projects/making an impact/etc. This is a conversation to have with your manager too, to validate your sense of where your focus should be and what you’d have to delegate to make that possible.

    If it turns out that he’s delegating appropriately, then you should start delegating too so that you can also make sure you have the time to excel! Bonus: you won’t be a jerk about it.

  144. Parenthetically*

    An uncomfortable encounter I witnessed today got me thinking: retail workers (current or not), how did you handle being hit on by, say, the creepy older guy who drops off the payroll checks, or the guy who refills the drink coolers in the checkout line, or a similar vendor-type person? And would you have appreciated a customer speaking up if they saw it?

    1. WellRed*

      I’ve once or twice spoken up as a regular customer at the bar of a national chain when other customers would creep on the female bartenders, such as saying they were attractive enough to work at the nearby strip club.

    2. Princesa Zelda*

      I’ve always handled it by pretending that they didn’t say [creepy thing] and blowing right past it. E.g., “You should smile more!” “May I suggest our cold cut combo? It has ham, turkey, and salami, and your choice of cheddar or Swiss cheese.” Or “Hi beautiful, I need to talk to the man who works in hardware.” “I am the hardware associate on duty, how can I help you?”

      A customer speaking up would have made my day most of the time, but if the man making the comments was scary in some way, it would have made it worse. One store I worked at had a regular who carried a gun with him, and I was always on edge when dealing with him. If a customer had corrected him on anything, I would have been terrified, even though I never saw any other indications from this dude that he was dangerous.

      1. Princesa Zelda*

        Oh, vendors! Sorry!

        When I was younger, I usually kind of awkwardly tried to pretend I hadn’t heard them, and would have loved it if someone had intervened. Now that I’m more confident in myself, I shut that down immediately. “What an odd thing to say to a professional contact.” No smile, arms crossed, from probably the bounciest and friendliest cheerleader-iest person on staff. It makes them very uncomfortable.

  145. user412*

    How to avoid being blamed but also sounding defensive?

    In my team, we are regularly asked to do task A by let’s say the last day of the month. It has never been communicated why this task is important. It’s a small thing. It’s not a formal thing either, the communication on that sounds more like “we would appreciate it if you do that by the last day of the month”.

    This time I was prevented from doing it by other people, which I can prove. I wasn’t able to do anything about it. So 2 days before the deadline I wrote the person who controls the task that I was only to be able to do it on the 1st.

    I got no reply. I worked extreme hours last weeks (14+ a day), so I really didn’t have time and energy to try to reach the person (we are both super busy)

    Now, there’s a huge drama and I have been very criticised by my great great boss that I didn’t do that on time.

    Is that normal? I’m honestly considering quitting on the weekend since it’s not the first time I feel I’m in an insane environment.

    1. Person from the Resume*

      Honestly it really depends on how important task A is. You don’t think it is, but if great, great boss is aware of it maybe it is a super important critical task. Or at least it is something the big bosses care about so it should have be prioritized. But I can easily imagine a different perspective to the story where you don’t look so great.

    2. Kathenus*

      Before quitting I’d evaluate my entire experience in the job and at the organization. You don’t want them judging you as harshly as they are for missing this one deadline (regardless of whether or not that was out of your control), so try using that same benefit of the doubt approach about their reaction to it occurring IF this is not indicative of the typical way that management reacts to things.

      And on your first paragraph, I will say there are lots of things that I do that I don’t always know the full ‘why’ for, but they’re part of my job so I do them. And I would caution against interpreting their phrasing (we would appreciate it if…) as meaning that it’s not important or required, it sounds like it is and that the phrasing is to be more polite versus dictatorial in approach in assigning the task.

    3. LilySparrow*

      The first step would be to ask your manager, “What should I have done differently in order to meet this goal? Is there a process to work around a situation like this, when I am waiting for input/approval from others?”

      See what they say. Maybe there is an alternate solution you didn’t know about, and this will also make them aware of the problem without sounding defensive.

      If the solution boils down to “have a time machine” or “do magic” or “work unpaid overtime,” then yeah – it’s an insane environment.

  146. Estrella*

    Regular reader, super-occasional commenter, de-lurking to share a story y’all might appreciate. No advice needed, just wanted to tell it.

    My department outing was a few days ago — everybody went to a nice dinner, socialized, etc. Of course, some of the VIPs got up and gave speeches, recognizing some of the highest-performers in the department. It was mostly pretty normal, and everyone who was recognized really deserved it.

    One VIP, though. Y’all. When talking about one of his employees who’s So Dedicated(tm) to the company, he shared this example: HardWorker is so dedicated, sometimes she comes into VIP’s office to say she’s hit her 40 hours for the week, so she’s clocking out, but she’s not leaving yet!! She can still help out if needed!!

    Later, I was talking to a coworker about this. Coworker knows HardWorker better than I do.
    Me: “Did I mishear (VIP) when he said (HardWorker) –”
    Coworker: “Nope.”
    Me: “…Really?”
    Coworker: “Really.”
    Me: “That’s… illegal…?”
    Coworker: “YEP.”

    Luckily, Coworker went on to say that a C-level exec, who happened to be sitting in the front row, ALSO called it out as illegal. (I was near the back, so I didn’t hear that part.) Thank goodness at least one person in leadership at this company has some sense. I don’t think HardWorker will be doing any more ~volunteering~.

      2. Estrella*

        Oh, no! I don’t think I portrayed her very well in this story. I don’t want to out myself entirely, so I left out a ton of details, but she’s actually really great. Definitely a people-pleaser — and clearly this VIP is not a great influence on her for what’s right. I suspect she’s been ~encouraged to stick around after her 40 hours; it was VIP who used all the exclamation points, not HW herself.

      3. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        I’d bet more like HardWorker feels coerced to work unpaid overtime.

        I’ve read of retail and food service people who, when they close up shop, clock out at a certain time — and if they’re not finished they then continue to work until they’re finished. They know their managers are cutting labor costs to the bone and they (the workers) even previously got called on the carpet for “taking too long” to close. They (again the workers) probably figure if they don’t clock out at a certain time, they’ll be replaced with workers who will — by managers who probably know what’s going on but want plausible deniability.

      1. Estrella*

        I hope so, too! His team has a lotttt of unhealthy work practices; I hope C-level and VIP had A Talk when they weren’t in front of the whole department anymore.

      1. Fikly*

        I saw a linkedin post today encouraging people to do free work when applying for jobs as a way to get the position. It made me cringe.

  147. NeedsARealityCheck*

    I got accepted into an unpaid 8 week internship. They report really high placement rates (>95%) after the 8 weeks. Program looks cool, do a project, learn from your peers type stuff, prep for interviews. Interviews for a month after the program, mostly showing off your project. Program matches you with companies, sets up interviews etc. They said they’ll work with you until you get a placement you like. But they mentioned that some people did leave/give up without getting a placement.

    Worries: 1. Unpaid, they suggested loans when I asked about trying to move to this city and afford rent. Program is free to me but housing/food etc is not included.
    2. Not everyone got a job after. Some people go back to prev labs/jobs after.
    3. I’m worried about getting locked in to where it won’t matter if the offer is a good one, I’ll prob just take it out of fear of continuing being unpaid and in debt in new city
    4. Everything riding on this project made in the 8 weeks, not clear on what project requires or how easy to make. It seems a little weird to me to interview based on fast project and not like my skills or past work efforts.
    5. This may be arrogance but part of me wonders what if I just applied to companies outside of this program, could I get hired on my own?
    6. Short (7 days) to accept or decline.

    Pros: I like new city but don’t have job network contacts there, this would be a huge boost. Pay rates at these companies look higher than average in current city, cost of living about the same, so basically skipping 1-2 rounds of salary increase at a job out here. This would be more streamlined interview process than me applying to my endless forms online.

    What do you guys think?

    1. time for tea*

      In your field, is 8 weeks long enough to do a real project/one that will impress people? (It is absolutely not in mine.) Why do some people leave the program before the time is up? Are you able to talk with an of the people who did get placements after the program?

      Most importantly: do you have savings to live on for 2 months + however much time it could take to get a job? Taking out a loan for this, idk. It seems risky to me but I’m not in your field. It could pay off! But I’d for sure try to talk to people who’ve done it before. Who told you about the program? Could you consult with them?

      1. NeedsARealityCheck*

        Thanks! Yeah that’s my concern too, that my best work isn’t going to be represented by this project. Glad to hear its not just me coming off a multiple year dissertation project overthinking time frame. It’s data science, so you could swing something together rapidly but it would be an intense effort. I don’t have the savings. I dislike loans. If it was housing included I think I wouldn’t have stopped to realize all these other concerns. My department told me about it, they’ve had students go on to get prestigious jobs as a result of the program. The advisor who mentioned it to me didn’t seem to know it was unpaid. I definitely could go talk to her again.

        1. time for tea*

          re: data science. I would absolutely not do this unless you were already very familiar with all the data sources and structures that would be involved. You wouldn’t have time to learn them.

        2. Darren*

          I can’t speak to these specific internships, but my work regularly has data sciencey projects for our interns and yeah they are always around 4 weeks (which is the time allotted for a single project). There is always something useful you can get out in that timeframe, it probably won’t be 100% complete (but that is what the position would usually entail if hired) just enough time to get the tools, set them up and demonstrate you can do the analysis.

    2. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      One thing you’re not really addressing here: do you think you would learn a lot? Do you suspect you’d really get new skills out of it, or is the main draw that you’re taking 8 weeks off to work on a specific project with a group of people (and then getting job search help afterward)?

      If you don’t think you would learn much, then the real thing you’re looking at is connections. But data science is in crazy high demand… you might not get a job at Google without connects, but if you know what you’re doing to any degree, you *should* be able to find a job (at least in major cities, which it sounds like this thing is in, and it sounds like you might already be in a different but still major city) without their help…

      That’s what went thru my mind, as I read your post. If you’ve got 7 days to accept or decline, I would spend today/tomorrow applying to a bunch of jobs that you think this program would make you competitive for. See how many immediate responses you get. If it’s none, that might tell you something useful about either your skill levels or how you’re marketing them. If you get a bunch of responses, then it looks like you’re probably fine without it! But given how in-demand data science is, I think a week is enough to at least see what your immediate market value is.

  148. The Other Alice*

    Just wanted to say I’m 1 week into my new job and the difference is day and night! I knew OldJob was bad but I’m still discovering just how big the iceberg of dysfunction was. My coworkers seem nice and the work much more interesting. I’ve a lot of training to get through since I changed industries to something totally different, and I need to adjust to my new commute, but overall it’s been the best work week in a long while. So grateful to AAM :)

  149. badger*

    I have a question about a new employee that might not work out.

    I am a manager and I’ve been training an employee for almost 3 months who has some issues.
    Compared to his colleagues he is quite slow to grasp the software we are working with. Time billed to our customers is important to us and with his speed he’s billing what a slower colleague was billing after two, not three months. I’m not sure that he’ll be able to reach and hold steady the billing expectations that we have.
    He seems to get frustrated by his tasks (which are still very much ramping up) and by being interrupted to answer the phone when the latter will always be a core function of this job.

    It’s time for him to pick up another project, but so far this has been going really slowly (to be fair this is also due to the people responsible for organizing it).

    I try to be very clear in my feedback where performance is needed, what my expectations are and not to expect more of him than his colleagues, just because I have my eye on him.

    My question is: how and when do you decide if somebody is working out. How did you do it in the past and how did it play it out? Were there people who had major trouble and turned out fine? Which signs did you see that made you decide to keep them on? When/how did you decide that others would not work out?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I had a somewhat similar situation. A student lab assistant I hired stopped showing up/canceled last minute a lot. After I think two months, I reduced their work to non-essential and non-pressing tasks (i.e. washing glassware, sterilizing waste). It’s been a few years, but I think they basically stopped signing up for shifts eventually. Not exactly my intent, but I can’t give you tasks if you don’t reliably show up to work.

      More recently, my organization hired an intern who I had supervised into a mid-level position. They were a poor match for the position from the start, partly due to the manager (not me) and partly due to the role. They worked here for a little over a year, I think, and ended up resigning to go to a different job. That was not a good year for anyone involved in that position, so if at all possible, don’t let it go that long.

      1. badger*

        Thanks for telling me about your experiences!

        I’m considering a “given these are the tasks and expectations for this role, do you think this job is for you” talk where the “yes” option is to improving significantly in a short time frame. I don’t want to drag it out either.

  150. VeryAnonThisTime*

    I need to just vent.

    I used to love my job. For 10 years I came in and was excited to start working almost every day. Then I got a new boss and after 2 years it’s clear that my job is being diminished due to their need for control. I’ve tried talking to them. I’ve tried talking to the grand boss. I’ve tried talking to HR. Things get better for a few months and then back to the same things. I used to have interesting work and projects that were part of my job description, now I spend all my time doing work that isn’t interesting and isn’t what I was hired to do. I think if there was an end in sight I’d be ok, I don’t mine doing uninteresting work for the good of the team, but 90% of it is stuff that I know won’t work and they don’t listen when I tell them that, so then it gets done and it’s been a waste of time as I predicted. The boss is also not very good at creating relationships. We’re in academia, and relationships are everything. I’ve spent 10 years building trust and capital to be able to effect major change, and have done it successfully until the new boss came on. Now everything has to go through them and it gets bottle necked there.

    I’ve never had such little success in creating a working relationship. I’ve had bosses change before, and always built trust quickly and established rapport quickly. People like me, I’m very good at what I do, the board commends me, I have the highest satisfaction ratings on my team, and my reviews are always top marks with several bonuses along the way. I’ve worked hard to get there, and I’ve done it by treating everyone with respect and being honest and responsive. This boss that doesn’t do any of that and it is slowly crushing me to work for someone that isn’t thoughtful or kind. I also know from experience that rather than replace me they’d freeze the position and that would drown my direct reports in things they’re not prepared to do 93 of their other direct reports have left and that’s what happened each time). I’d take my team with me if I could, it’s a dream team and I don’t want to do that to them, but working for someone who is miserable isn’t good for them either.

    So – that’s my vent. I know I’m working up to leaving, it’s just really hard to do when an amazing and fulfilling job that allowed em to grow professionally becomes really negative. Especially as if I want to stay in academia I’ll probably have to move towns and I have property here.

  151. Rebecca*

    I realized today that I’ve been doing this job for 17 years. I don’t even like it. I’ve been working to make money and have health insurance, and in the area I live in, I’m lucky to have an office job, as most even mediocre paying jobs are now warehouse 12 hour a day on your feet jobs on swing shift. I feel like I’m wasting my life putting up with the same stuff, day after day, week after week, month after month and year after year. And when I think I have 11 years to go to retire, honestly, I want to cry. I just sat here on another overwhelming day with too much to do and not enough time to do it and did just that. I’m tired of working at places that are staffed so leanly that if someone is out it turns into a fire drill. I’m tired of going on vacation, only to have an avalanche of crap in my email to wade through for days when I return. I’m just — tired.

    I made up my mind when my mother passes away (only child, she’s nearly 84 with health issues), I’m outta here. It may even be before that. I did get another job 3 years ago, and it was much worse than this! I did all the due diligence, no red flags, but man what a huge hornet’s nest that place was. I was actually fortunate to come back to the frying pan, after jumping from the frying pan into the fire for 12 weeks. I never thought I’d be happy to be back here.

    Thanks for letting me express this. It makes me feel better just to type this out.

    1. time for tea*

      I’m with you on doing a job I don’t like, and doing it for the money and the benefits. What helps me is to focus on hobbies and my life outside of work. Yeah, the best part of my job is what I can do when I’m not at work because of it. And it sucks a lot. But I focus on all the stuff I do that ISN’T work.

      And sometimes that “stuff”? It’s watching a tv show I like. I get to relax and watch that show. And sometimes at work, I just have to focus on that I’ll get out of here eventually and can go home and do what I want to do.

      It gets me through the day. Because I’m not wasting my life. I’m sacrificing some of it so I can do what I want in the rest of it.

      1. Rebecca*

        Thank you so much for that. I like that, sacrificing some of my life so I can do what I want the rest of the time.

        1. CupcakeCounter*

          I was going to write something similar to time for tea
          Not everyone gets to have a wonderful, fulfilling career. Some of us simply need a paycheck that allows us to be safe, fed, and able to afford the things we do love. I actually know more people who survive their job than love their job.

          The one thing you can do is refuse to do more than you can do. You will need to make management feel the pinch instead of you and your coworkers. Make a list of things and one by one…just don’t do it.
          “Sorry I am not able to get to that since I have X deliverable for C-suite person that takes precedence. Here is a process doc on how to do it if you need it done right away.”
          “I’m taking a Bonsai class so need to leave on time for the next few weeks – I won’t be able to get to dull task A, B, and C so you will need to decide if you want to do them or if they aren’t super necessary.”
          “CFO said no more overtime so we need to re-prioritize some of my duties since I can’t get everything done in the 40 approved hours”

          1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

            “Sorry I am not able to get to that since I have X deliverable for C-suite person that takes precedence. Here is a process doc on how to do it if you need it done right away.”

            “I’m taking a Bonsai class so need to leave on time for the next few weeks – I won’t be able to get to dull task A, B, and C so you will need to decide if you want to do them or if they aren’t super necessary.”

            Mmmm…from where I sit those sound great for peers, and could use an alternative version for management.

            For the first one, I would ask which one, the X deliverable or the new item your superior is now pushing, takes precedence. You may also need to consult with the C-suite person.

            For the second one, if you plan on phrasing it anything like that — as a statement, not a question — to management, ask yourself how much you’re risking your job and then whether you’re willing to take that risk.

            For the third one, I assume you’re non-exempt.

    2. My Brain Is Exploding*

      Agree with Time for Tea. Many people work to live, not live to work! Plus your work life sounds a lot like your life outside of work…so much to do (Mom, house, etc.) putting up with the same thing (Mom’s behavior) day after day, year after year. Plus I’ll bet the stress from your life outside of work is affecting the way you think about work! It is no wonder you are tired and feel like crying!! *Hugs*

  152. Environmental Compliance*

    TL,DR: Feeling stupid that I’m strongly considering job hunting because I don’t want job hop, but I also think that I’ve hit a situation where Management Sucks and Isn’t Going to Change.

    Have been at current company 2 years, company before 1, company before that 1, company before that 3, company before that 5 (some of those overlap from college positions). I left 5 yr company to move to a different city to complete my Master’s. I left 3 year company when I graduated with Masters. I left 1 year company for a position that was more in line with what I went to school for and wanted to do…. only to leave that position because the projects & duties I was promised never materialized (this is when I got the job to do environmental outreach in a county, ended up having to do unsafe housing inspections instead). Current company I am very, very, very frustrated with management for the following reasons:
    – No one wants to take responsibility for making any decisions. Therefore, we start 23o948348 projects and never finish any, but the background work still gets dumped on me to flail around like a drunk octopus trying to get something done that was given to me as Incredibly Important Should Have Been Done Three Weeks Ago… and then it turns out that no one else ever touches it.
    – I am being increasingly dumped on for work. For some reason, if it’s regulatory, it belongs to EC. Instead of environmental compliance, I am being asked to do Everything Maybe Compliance.
    – I am being asked to be the Bad Guy for nearly anything & everything, and it is exhausting. Management does not manage their people when they don’t follow an SOP, instead EC is tasked with doing it. I don’t manage anyone. No one is my direct report.
    – Snitty, crappy comments on how I’m always the Bad Guy. “Don’t do x, you’ll anger EC!” Dude, I’m not regulating *at you*, I have trained and trained and discussed and discussed of why we need to do XYZ and how it’s important for everyone to do. Don’t be shitty at me because you have to fill out a form.
    – Management does not believe in compliance because it’s the right thing to do. It’s instead a culture of “what can we use for technicalities to get out of this regulation?” and “how long can we go without getting in trouble?” and that bothers me. Compliance of course should be reasonable with business needs, but it’s alarming to me to be asked to circumvent regulatory requirements or how many times we can incur x violation without a fine.
    – Honestly, I’m just tired. I’m tired of hearing that if I need help with something, we’ll get consultants, but also, no, we’re not getting consultants, it costs too much money. I’m tired of having someone slap a used bandaid on a broken process, without considering fixing the problems, not the symptoms. I’m tired of fighting a battle that is so uphill it may as well be a cliff with little to no management support. I’m tired of the deeply entrenched negative attitude throughout the entire facility.

    I have brought up my concerns & requested help and it goes nowhere. But I wanted to be here at least 5 years. I went into this job with that hope & goal. I don’t want to be job-hopping. But I also want to not hate coming into work.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Unless it is specific to your industry, leaving a job after 2 years is not job hopping at all. Start job hunting and don’t feel bad about it for a second.

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        I’m probably mixing in some of that younger-person guilt of how people in my (very large) age bracket just aren’t loyal and hop around and lordy loo do we suck in general /s.

        Would be nice to have something to be loyal to, tbh.

    2. Kiwiii*

      It’s the two 1 year stints that look a little strange, yes, but have a 2 year stint after them will help. that’s a perfectly reasonable amount of time to be at a company. See if you can find a move that’s a little up either in pay, position, or responsibilities, plan to stay there 3+ years and call it fine.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I’ve put some feelers out for positions that are much more focused, more technical, and work from home. There’s been a couple that sound like they’d be great and wouldn’t be too horribly strange for me to want to jump to.

        The first 1 year company I started out in a position that I absolutely loved. I miss it a lot. If that gov’t agency ever allowed that position to work remotely (as I’m not moving back to that area), I’d be on that in a heartbeat.

    3. CheeryO*

      I would definitely put feelers out, especially since you have options and could go work for local or state government and deal with exactly none of that nonsense. That attitude among management seems common, in my experience, but it’s not pervasive. There are plenty of companies who support their environmental folks because they believe in doing the right thing (or at least, they believe in looking like they care about doing the right thing). No need to keep bashing your head against the wall if nothing is changing.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I applied to some consulting, work from home positions today. We have the space and I do well working from home. There’s plenty of joint working spaces in the area as well, so I’d have the flexibility there.

        I think part of the reason it feels so stupid to me is that I get the sense that a lot of companies operate in this manner…. but at the same time, I specifically chose this industry (green fuels) because it felt less likely to be in that vein. “Green” and “sustainability” is huge within this company’s mission statement, website, parent company’s mission statement/website. Lip service only though, and it seems to be getting worse the longer I stay here.

        1. CheeryO*

          WFH consulting sounds fantastic! I hope something pans out for you. You clearly care a lot about your job and deserve better.

    4. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Management does not believe in compliance because it’s the right thing to do. It’s instead a culture of “what can we use for technicalities to get out of this regulation?” and “how long can we go without getting in trouble?” and that bothers me. Compliance of course should be reasonable with business needs, but it’s alarming to me to be asked to circumvent regulatory requirements or how many times we can incur x violation without a fine.

      […]

      I have brought up my concerns & requested help and it goes nowhere.

      Get. Out.

      PS: Generally, two years isn’t job-hopping anyway. Even if it was, lack of management support for compliance is a good reason to leave quickly.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I think I need to find a way to work through my disappointment in not having that support, if that makes sense?

        I really, 100% went into this position having high hopes that I would be here at least 5 years, if not til an early retirement. I have some good support from our management company’s EHS staff, but they’ve got their hands tied with the parent company. Management company does not do remote work….and even if they did, I’d probably get saddled with Current Facility, which doesn’t help.

        I have a good salary. Too much, in my mind, because right now management likes to throw money at me in hopes it placates me. (Spoiler: does not. Actually irritates me more, because we also get told we can’t do bonus for operators because Financial Stress, but can give me money I have explicitly said I do not value? Hokay then.) Benefits are halfway decent. I like most of my coworkers. My office is nice and they tolerate my deep love of plants. I feel like there’s a lot to be happy about with this job, but it’s so clouded behind the constant negativity & lack of caring about anything but getting the facility running at 120%, breaking machinery & pollution be damned.

        1. badger*

          Well on the disappointment side of things you can decide to feel sad. You know, get it all out, really give room to the disappointment you feel with this company/its execs, the lost opportunity you thought you had.

          It might feel disloyal to the company at first, but you need to stay loyal to yourself, which includes giving your feelings about this gig room, not “shoulding” yourself into denying them.

          It sounds like you are committed to the environment and ethical work practice. That’s something to be truly proud of. Don’t let an unethical company sour that.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            That’s true. Thank you for saying it.

            I think I’ll do better in a place that either doesn’t *need* to have a lot of my heart put into it, or that fully allows me to put my heart into it. It’s difficult for me to separate out passion from work when it’s a topic I care about. Also why I decided very late in my college career to drop out of veterinary medicine – I had been working at a horse rescue and felt I would be upset a lot. And trying to rescue All The Animals.

            I think I’ll take a couple mental health days within the next few weeks and try to more mentally disentangle myself from my work. Plus that’ll give me more time to do things I enjoy that work is getting in the way of. I haven’t used over half of my sick time for the year, and it doesn’t roll over anyway.

            1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

              You’re working for nasty if not evil people. And as the compliance person, you’re the fall-person if when a violation comes to light.

              And then good luck getting any kind of desirable job after that. You know how fragile trust and reputation are, right?

              Have a nice mental health break and a good holiday season. Take some time to really think about your options.

              And. Get. Out.

  153. Profane Pencils*

    I have an employee who has taken over a very high-input, high-pressure position. She has the basic skills to accomplish it, along with some of the soft skills that give me confidence that she’ll make it work. She currently has an issue, however, with getting overwhelmed, either by an influx of information or upset clients. Her judgment gets impaired as a result, so things that are not the same priority level get scheduled as such when we can’t really make it work.
    This ends up trickling down to everyone affected by her position, as schedules get really crammed.
    She also is young, and very soft; it’s hard for her to also cope with clients who word things really strongly or are outright rude. She’s described interactions with clients to me as being combative, when the client just sounded exasperated. (thankfully, her professional voice or control doesn’t need any work.)

    Do you have advice for helping teach an employee to slow down (especially in an inherently fast-paced role) and cope with the emotional fallout from upset clients when she herself is upset? I’m going to put together some visuals for her–like a flow chart visualizing prioritizing processes–and we’re going to sit down together for two days next week and work together to reexamine her processes, but I would appreciate any extra advice, insight or anecdotes.
    I’m pretty confident she’ll figure this out eventually if left alone, but I’d like to shorten the waiting period and provide as much support as I can.

    1. Kiwiii*

      If you can give her context for why something she did is off or why something that bothered her happened, I think that will make all the difference. If she sees what’s happening as in line with what’s expected, it’s bound to help.

  154. Seeker of truth and light and grilled cheese*

    Are video interviews the new hot thing for IT employers? Recently started a new hunt, first in many years, and wow. Every other request from a recruiter or direct employer seems to be right to a video interview – not even a phone interview first. And this is for jobs in the same current city, not relocating. I could see one or two but 6 out of 10 requests this week were for video interviews. I guess I should be happy I am getting the requests! But wow, they take a LOT more time & effort & dedication to the cause, where in 5 minutes on the phone we could quickly & easily determine if we should move forward at all.

    1. Jamie*

      Wow! When I was interviewing this time last year (also IT) I wasn’t asked for any. It was mostly phone screen, phone interview, in person interview.

      If this is the wave of the future I’ll never be able to interview again. Video makes me so nervous I wouldn’t get a call back.

    2. NeedsARealityCheck*

      Video interviews are so much more stressful! I need like a background to quickly plop behind my desk. I keep moving furniture to get a “blank” corner of my apartment. Also hair+suit is so much more work than just phone. And then inevitably that’s the same outfit I end up wearing to in person. No knowledge, just massive sympathy!

    3. Darren*

      My IT company does a Skype screen but it’s basically the same as a phone screen (in fact if there are connection issues or preference on the other end I just leave the video off). I’m assuming you are meaning actually making a video of yourself type video screen? I’ve never had to do one of those and can’t see how they could be valuable in assessing an IT professional.

      1. Seeker of truth and light and grilled cheese*

        No, live video – skype or any of the many meeting software or webex etc. I have to prep clothes for it like an in-person interview, make an entire section of my house be video-worthy, do something with the sick needy cuddly cat and his sister for the time, and *be at home* during a work day! It is far too much to ask of someone for an initial screen, especially if you also refuse to divulge salary beforehand! Last one, the first informational sentence out of their mouth was the salary and i ended the call there (30k lower than expected and no wiggling it! No negotiating on vacation or work from home days can make up for that!). All that work for something that could have been taken care of three weeks earlier in email! Fury-inducing.

  155. Chronic Illness at Work - Thanks!*

    I wanted to update on my post a couple of weeks ago. First of all, thank you everyone for the excellent feedback and advice.

    I was out for a week and my rheumatologist made some med changes. I left my laptop at work, took my company phone, but turned it off once I was home and only checked it on Sunday night(!) I actually rested and relaxed for the whole week. I really needed the time to come to terms with my new normal and accept that yes, I have a disability, and it’s ok to take care of myself first. Fortunately, it was fairly quiet the week I was out, because it’s been nuts this week.

    I also got my position leveling compensation letter, and they did not rug rank me, which the parent company is known to do. So my official title reflects my experience and education and not my boss’ title.

  156. Things*

    I have a question about interviewing and networking when you don’t really seem to be ambitious, energetic, or driven from the outside. Long story short, I’m currently a graduate student, I need to work with professionals more, and I have some mental issues. I take medication for these issues, and it really does help me actually be happy and get things done, but there are some side effects. Namely, my emotional equilibrium is strongly centered towards mellow, and I’m always going to be operating on less stamina than I’d have without meds. That doesn’t mean I’m less productive, since I can actually focus on stuff with the meds, but no interviewer is going to perceive me as energetic. And with the way the meds manipulate my emotions, bright eyed and excited, or strongly driven, just isn’t how I’m going to come off. Not being on the meds isn’t a good option, because they do make my life better to live, but I am worried about job searching in particular. Job candidates need to be energetic and excited and driven, but if I’m in that emotional state, I’m also in the emotional state where I can tear myself to pieces mentally.

    1. Kiwiii*

      Not every position is going to be looking for ambitious/energetic, so I don’t think you’re going to need to come off that way. Just try and make it obvious that you know what you’re talking about and highlight your relevant experience, as relevant, insightful questions, maybe practice smiling and nodding in the mirror or with a friend if you need to. As long as you’re not coming across as bored, I wouldn’t worry about it too much.

    2. Mama Bear*

      It depends on the interviewer and the company. I personally don’t need an inyourface go getter. I’m looking for quality, steady people who can do the job and work with my team. I’d rather interview someone more mellow, as long as they didn’t seem to be so mellow as to not have a pulse. Try to get a feel for your audience, remember to smile and be friendly, and see how it goes.

    3. Jamie*

      There are plenty of job where that kind of calm and focused temperament is a huge asset.

      Excited and energetic isn’t ideal for every position.

    4. CheeryO*

      I think that’s going to be fine for most roles! I would practice good body language, though – even if you don’t feel super energetic, you can fake it with good eye contact, good posture (shoulders back, sitting toward the front of your chair and leaning in a bit, etc.), as well as the smiling and nodding that Kiwiii mentioned. I’m not naturally bubbly or energetic either, but I’ve still had success in interviewing – one interviewer actually wrote a note to the effect of “SO engaged!” during an interview, which made me weirdly happy.

  157. Pieska Boryska*

    Last week HR at a smallish company where I applied contacted me for a phone interview. I responded with my availability but didn’t hear anything back for a week. The rep said he’d been unexpectedly out of the office and wanted to reschedule some time in the next couple days. I gave my updated availability and heard nothing for two more days. At that point he apologized and asked to reschedule again. I chose one of the times he suggested and he confirmed the next day-a completely different day than the one in my email and a time he hadn’t listed in his availability. Now I’m wondering if this company’s HR is totally incompetent. Or worse, a reflection on how the company operates. Anyone have experience with this?

    1. Jamie*

      I have experience with almost every interview/hiring process I’ve ever gone through being a hot mess of stuff like this.

      The job I have now I interviewed for off and on for 5 months and in between large stretches where I kind of forgot about it entirely.

      Even the well run companies for whom I’ve worked have terrible hiring practices. They all need more AAM in their lives.

  158. Normally a Lurker*

    I need some script help.

    I am admin for a large company in a specialized admin role. (Think, I am an admin and do all the admin type stuff for a C-level, and also, I run the Llama Brushing program for our department – which is a cross team initiative started to make sure all teams were brushing the Llama’s correctly).

    We have some off-site employees who come in for check ins once a quarter or so.

    I’m having problems with one of them who keeps sending me a to do list marked “Urgent” weeks before their visit for things that are not actually Urgent.

    I always get to them, and I always get to them ahead of when they arrive.

    But honestly, I don’t know how to handle the “Urgent ” request and the daily follow up emails that they send to see if it’s been done.

    My feeling is that it’s coming from a place of not realizing that I regularly work 55-60 hours a week at *just* my job, and they’re asking me to do things on top of that.

    How do I tell them – holy crap, stop emailing. I will get this done before you get here, but it’s super not urgent whereas this to do list of things for meetings that are happening in the next two days are.

    1. Jamie*

      When you get the request email them letting them know the schedule on which you’ll complete the tasks. If they keep asking keep referring back to the email where you told them when it will be done.

    2. Kiwiii*

      I can’t tell if he actually expects the items urgently or just before his visit. Can you clarify a timeline with him when he assigns the tasks, like — “great, i’ll have these done by [friday before his visit]” and when he checks in just reconfirm the timeline “no, I thought we agreed on [frieday before his visit]?”

    3. Alianora*

      So, the first thing I would do when they send an “urgent” request is to reply and say, “Hi Employee, I got this request and I’ll get to it by Wednesday next week.” Then when they follow up, “Per my last email, Wednesday next week.” And tell them on Wednesday when you’ve completed the task.

      I’d let the marking things urgent go, but if the follow ups persist then talk to them in person during their visit. Ask them if there is a reason they keep asking after you’ve already given them an estimated timeline.

  159. Bunny Girl*

    I’m a little late to the party, but has anyone gone to therapy because they are struggling with work and really hate their job? I’ve been with my company for a little over two years and its a toxic shithole. I’m sure the best answer would be to quit, but in my situation, the benefits are just too good for me to look for something else. I’m a student so I’ll be able to leave after I graduate, but I’m really frustrated with my coworkers because they are truly awful people. I’ve thought about talking to someone about it in a constructive way instead of just me venting, but I’m wary that they’re just going to tell me to quit, which, as I said, I can’t right now.

    Any thoughts?

    1. Jamie*

      I’m no expert but I don’t think therapists are supposed to tell you what to do as much as listen and help you with tools to manage your stress and make your own decisions.

      Although when I talked to one about work she talked to me about my lack of husband being the source of my stress and then recommended I speak with her Pastor so…that was the last time I saw her.

      Anyway, fwiw I really wish I had seen one when I was burning out. I was in a bad place, anxiety through the roof, and I was so broken by the time the management restructure happened I didn’t have it in me to even advocate for myself. I would have had to leave that job eventually (because they sucked) but a good therapist may have helped me do it on my terms with less emotional damage.

      I’m sorry you’re going through that – I know how brutal it is.

    2. Me*

      GO! Therapists never ever tell you what to do. They help you figure out what the best solution is for you and can help suggest coping mechanisms and observations on yourself that might help you cope/figure shizz out.

      In fact if you see a therapist and they are telling you to do things (like quit a job, not liek suggesting you keep a journal), run immediately to the closest exit and find you a new one.

    3. Gimicky*

      any therapist worth their salt won’t tell you to quit. They might encourage you to look at other options, but their job isn’t to tell you how to live your life, it’s to help you find ways to do so that are as healthy and fulfilling as possible.
      I really encourage you to look into it. It will make a large difference to hear someone validate what you’re going through and help you see it from a less overwhelming angle.

    4. Four lights*

      I have, and if quitting is not an option a good therapist can help you find other ways to cope, and maybe uncover other things. At one job I found that it was mentally taking over even when I wasn’t at work, and my therapist was able to help reveal that and help.

    5. halfwolf*

      yes, i have! when i started with my current therapist i was in a low-paying job that i hated and was extremely physically taxing. my plan at the time was to get a new job (which i did, eventually) but just having someone to talk to who actively listened, validated my concerns, and gently pushed back when i was reinforcing my own negativity was extremely helpful. i hear you on the concern that they’re going to say you ought to quit – but a decent (heck, halfway decent) therapist will listen and move forward with you if you tell them that’s not in the cards right now. it’s taken me many years to internalize the idea that as the client, i do have agency to push back with my therapist if i think she’s going in a direction that i don’t feel is helpful. if you can find a therapist you can afford, you should definitely go for it. i’m rooting for you!

    6. ACDC*

      No advice on the therapy aspect, but I started using CBD oil to deal with my toxic workplace and it was very helpful. I empathize with also having a toxic situation with incredibly good benefits!

      1. Bunny Girl*

        It’s illegal where I live. :(

        I do use a stress relief herb blend that I’ve actually found really helpful. I also do acupuncture for my anxiety and I think that helps overall – until I tell my needle lady to just put it in my eyeball. I know I’m not the only person going through this, but sorry you’re in the same situation!

    7. Me*

      I don’t know where my response went, so sorry if this is a dup.

      Absolutely go! Thereapists 100% don’t tell you what to do. You will never and should never hear one tell you something like quit your job. I mean they might suggest you do something along the lines of keep a journal. Or they might ask you what you would do if your employer suddenly went out of business but they won’t tell you or recommend you to take a specific action.

      What they do is listen and provide feedback to help YOU figure out the answer. They teach coping mechanisms for what you need help with.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Thank you for that answer! I will look into it then. I think I just need some coping mechanisms that don’t include venting at my loved ones and having three glasses on wine.

        I work for a state University, so it won’t go out of business. It needs to for how poorly run it is.

    8. Seifer*

      Wait are you me. My last job was hella toxic, and by the time I quit I was having anxiety attacks at least twice a week and I would get really freaked out with people walking behind me because every time I got up from my desk, my boss would run out of his office to follow me to make sure I was gone for whatever amount of time he deemed appropriate and not a second more. I didn’t start therapy because of that job, but I ended up going BACK to therapy because of that job.

      Anyway. Like you, my benefits were too good to actually quit. I may be doxxing myself here, but I had no cost to me insurance, HSA that the company contributed 75% of the yearly deductible to and was backed by the PPO (so not only did they give me money, they also covered 90% of the cost of stuff so when I was in the hospital I paid $70 instead of $7K) and it was accepted by The Big Name of doctor’s offices and hospitals in my area so care was amazing. Like. That ALONE made it really hard to quit because mental health was covered under the same parameters, birth control, antidepressants, I (accidentally) got a kidney infection (again), and since it was HSA, I could buy my lady things at the pharmacy with my HSA card so free period pads for YEARS.

      But I would regularly fantasize about driving my car into a light pole on the way to work. Like. Daily, at one point. My boss was an ass and letting my jealous supervisor whisper in his ear because I was better at the job than she was (truly, I could crank out drawings at ten times the rate she could and they were all up to standards) and she was trying to get me punished. And yeah, my therapist told me that I didn’t have to stay at this job, but what helped me was that she helped me figure out what the steps to that would be. Like. Quitting is the endgame. But everyone always says it like it’s so simple! Just quit! You don’t have to take this! Okay great but like, girl’s gotta eat??? I have rent to pay??? My cat needs the expensive food because she is a picky princess and I love her so much???? If had to pay for all of that AND the hospital bill, that’s called “Seifer lives on the street with her cat and her anxiety”????

      So yeah, my therapist would encourage me to focus on stuff I could control, like wearing headphones, updating my resume, perusing job listings, and then if one jumped out at me, hey maybe just send that updated resume and since benefits are really important to me, get them to tell me about those. Maybe my current toxic job isn’t the only place with magical unicorn benefits. Okay, maybe it is. But maybe a new job could pay me enough money that I could afford to have slightly shittier benefits and still be okay. And I would do the steps one at a time, when I felt like it, not all at once, and not every single day. But it helped me get out of the “I’m stuck here and one day it’s going to be too much and I’m going to ask one of the guys to drop one of the machines on me so that it can just stop already” mindset. I didn’t quit for another year after that, but it gave me the light at the end of the tunnel that I needed.

      Ohhh this got long, I’m sorry! But I hope there’s something in there that will help!

    9. Kyrielle*

      During a previous job, I did. I got lots of “yeah, that’s stressful, that’s bad” from the therapist, but I was frank going in that I was dealing with stress and not looking to leave the job, but I needed better ways to deal with the stress.

      It helped just to be able to vent about some of it and having someone else acknowledge how bad it was – and it helped also that she commented when she thought I was over-reacting to something not that bad objectively. But she worked with me on a lot of coping-with-stress skills that served me well then, and continue to help me in unrelated stressful situations now.

      You probably will need to explain why quitting isn’t an option currently, and they may even question that and make you analyze it to be sure it’s not just an emotional reaction, but it sounds like you have good reasons and therapy should be able to help give you coping skills. Good coping skills can’t totally offset a bad environment, but even a partial offset is a lot better than struggling on your own.

      If you see a therapist and they’re not helpful, you can always stop seeing them (and I’d recommend trying another, in that case, but again you don’t have to).

    10. pally*

      Given you will explain to the therapist that quitting is not on the table, you can also explain that you’d like to find some coping mechanisms to better deal with work stresses/issues. They’ll understand that. And be able to work with you to do this. If they go right to “quit your job” then they don’t have the expertise you need.

      FYI:
      I contacted our EAP once-regarding a bullying co-worker. They did suggest that I work on an exit strategy. But they also talked with me – at length- on things I could do to mitigate the bullying (reduce exposure, self-care, don’t fall for the ‘bait’, etc.).

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Yeah honestly my problem isn’t even my job itself. It’s my coworkers. They are truly some of the worst people I’ve ever met in my life. And I used to work in criminal justice, so I was dealing with murderers and drug dealers, and most of them were still more polite than the people I see every day. I do see a light at the end of the tunnel with each passing semester of school under my belt, but I just need a little help holding on. LoL. Thank you!

        1. Pamela Adams*

          Perhaps you can start with a therapist through school- they generally are geared for short-term and understand stress.

    11. Daisy-dog*

      Yes, I have. It does vary on the therapist though. The first therapist I happened to find by chance and she was wonderful and really made me feel better about the job. She really helped me build an “accepting the things you cannot change” attitude.

      I went to 1 session with another therapist years later (referred by my EAP) and he didn’t know what to tell me and suggested I find a new job. I think he specialized more with children or family issues (he was an LCSW).

      So you may need to shop around, but definitely do it! If you can pre-screen them, find out if they work with people who have burnout or workplace stress.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Thank you! I have been told that I need to shop around. I’m not naturally a very open “people person” so I figured it might take me a shot or two before I find someone I click with.

  160. Public policy anon*

    I need to vent.

    My skills are not valued on the job market these days, at least not for entry-level positions. I graduated college about 2.5 years ago and have failed to find permanent, full-time employment. I haven’t been idle during that time; I have done multiple prestigious internships and a full-time temp gig at a fairly prestigious institution. I have followed Allison’s resume and cover letter advice religiously and–over the past 3 months alone, since that temp gig ended–have applied to something like 60-70 jobs in a variety of industries (far more over the past 2 years). The city I live in has one of the strongest job markets in the US. Yet I have only heard back from two employers, and neither of those offered me a job in the end (and neither seemed enthusiastic about my candidacy).

    I have what I think are valuable skills and qualities. I’m a strong writer, a critical thinker, and can quickly research and absorb information (even in subject areas that are new to me). I have a track record of learning and using a wide variety of professional software. I’m professional, resourceful, humble, always meet deadlines, and am happy to perform low-level mundane duties without complaint. I have been noted for these qualities by previous managers (and often mention this in my cover letters!).

    These traits are not enough, it seems. Not when most entry-level jobs (in a variety of industries) want 2 years of full-time experience, a long list of technical skills and experiences, and (for certain kinds of writing jobs) a lengthy portfolio of publicly available work. To be qualified for an entry-level professional job, it seems like I’d have to have been preparing to work in that particular position since my freshman year of college! (I apply to them anyway, but never hear back)

    This is making me seriously consider going back to school. It feels like employers won’t take me seriously unless I have some data analytics or programming training in my background, and no one provides on-the-job training anymore. I know the trendy advice to recent grads these days is generally anti-graduate school (unless it’s absolutely necessary as a credential, like in law or medicine) and emphasizes that experience trumps education. But frankly, I don’t see how I can get the experience I need without more education! At the same time, though, graduate school is a lot of money, and going back to school (if I do) is not something I’m going to take lightly. But I’m just not sure what else to do.

    1. WellRed*

      I’d take a hard look at your resume and cover letter since you aren’t getting called for interviews.

      1. Public policy anon*

        That’s the thing, I have and continue to do so. I’ve completely rewritten my resume multiple times. But, you know, as someone who has only had internships a temp job, there’s only so much one can do with your resume. I’ve never had the seniority or length of employment to have any impressive accomplishments. All my previous managers have loved me though, and I try to highlight the things they like about me as a worker.

        1. WellRed*

          Hmm. If going back to school makes sense for your industry, that’s one thing, but don’t go back simply to be more employable if it doesn’t. Like, I have an English degree and while a master’s would be nice to have, it wasn’t going to make me more employable as a writer and it certainly would have been difficult to pay off the loans. The skills you list are important, but probably hard to quantify on a resume? Have you looked at more temping jobs?

          1. Public policy anon*

            I have started going that way recently, but have had little luck so far. They mostly seem to be either dead end admin jobs or still want 2+ years of experience.

    2. Lydeea*

      You say that “I have what I think are valuable skills and qualities” but then you only list soft skills. Those are by no means unimportant, but you need to have a baseline set of hard skills. I don’t know what your internships were in, your degree was, or what you are applying for now but if you are ONLY selling your soft skills, you won’t get far. Think about what hard skills you gained from your experience and find a way to combine it with soft skills.

      1. Public policy anon*

        I don’t really have many hard skills, to be honest. I double majored in a humanities subject and pure math (i.e. all pen and paper proofs, no applicable skills). I’m applying to entry-level jobs in the following areas: state and local government administration, business consulting, university administration, technical writing, research and analysis (ones that are more heavy on “reading lots of stuff and summarizing it” and less on data analysis), and legal assistant-ing.

        I have above average knowledge of government and the law for a recent college grad, and I have intermediate Excel skills (VLOOKUP, SUMIF, pivot tables, etc.) and some limited experience with a variety of professional software from my internships (but nothing super in-depth). But that’s it. How is a liberal arts grad supposed to get a white collar job?

        1. Public policy anon*

          Part of the issue is that my work experience is super niche. Two of my internships were research and writing positions for state-level politicians, one was in local government administration, and one was a legislature-adjacent writing position in state government. I don’t live in DC and am not interested in campaigns, so there aren’t very many jobs in my niche. I’m trying to transition out of that niche into something else that I’d be good at, and I’m applying widely.

        2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          First off, my sympathies. I have applied to 70+ jobs over this past year, I have a technical job and experience. Interviews? Pretty much crickets :/

          Second, further education is *not* equivalent to experience from a hiring perspective. I’ve been part of committees who hired someone fresh out of graduate school and FreshGraduate did not know business norms and were not able to set priorities properly; they did not last long and we are pretty wary of hiring others fresh out of school now except at very low level positions. So I don’t think more school would make you more attractive as a candidate.

          Third, some thoughts/suggestions in descending priority:

          1) Have you reached out to former bosses and coworkers from your internships to ask them for referrals in their companies? Are you connected to them on LinkedIn, so you can see if you have any connections to the jobs you apply to? Have you asked them for feedback on your application materials on why you aren’t getting interviews?

          2) I second the suggestion that seeking more temp work may help, to gain experience and network. That might be considered more important than internships. Also, maybe look temporary leave coverage positions. The fields you’re applying for tend have more candidates than jobs, so that’s part of the problem. Consulting firms, for example, need their employees to bring in money and good consultants generally need experience in non-consulting roles first to be valuable to the firm/their clients.

          3) You say you don’t have hard skills, but what you describe in regards to Excel and professional software *are* hard skills, so it makes me wonder how you’re highlighting those in your resume. In your case, a “skills” section might make sense. Also, 70+ applications in three months seems like a lot. Are you customizing (i.e. lifting language from the job ad)? That may or may not help.

          4) And I think you may need to re-frame your experience in your head, if only to try to reduce your frustration. You say you have “a track record of learning and using a wide variety of professional software” which doesn’t quite jive with what sounds like limited work history. The limited work history is not your fault. Companies do create the catch-22 of choosing the more experienced candidates because that makes business sense, but then fewer candidates get a chance to build that experience.

          1. WellRed*

            This is great advice. And with the writing you have done are you framing it in terms of what it accomplished? “Researched and wrote position paper that formed the basis of legislation that ultimately passed in the house.”

          2. Entry Level Marcus*

            Thank you for the detailed suggestions, I appreciate it.

            I will try to keep all these in mind. I think as I’ve become more anxious about my job prospects I’ve been erring on the side of more applications and putting less effort into each (though I do tailor every application to some degree). I am surprised, though, that you say 60-70 applications is a lot. I’ve heard many people saying that I should be applying to that many jobs per month! I’ve always thought of myself as a slow at making applications.

            Perhaps I need to take a step back and reassess my approach. I do think I might need to do temp work, now that you say it. I moved out of state recently (following my partner) and so my network here is much smaller (only the temp job was in my current city, and that is a government agency full of people who have been there forever).

            Anyway, you’ve given me a lot to think over. Thanks again!

            1. Entry Level Marcus*

              Ah, this switched to my non-anon name (I’m on a different computer right now). Oh well lol.

            2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

              I should have added, 70 could be a lot or not too many, depending on the scope of the job search. In my field, I would have trouble finding 70 jobs to even apply for in that amount of time. I know there have been some conversations on this site, in other open threads and AAM’s posts, about how many job applications is reasonable.

  161. CMB*

    Okay, this is kind of a weird question but how am I supposed to react to seeing coworkers in the bathroom? I personally much prefer to just pretend they’re not there, or if they make eye contact to just smile and the go about my business, but some coworkers will say hi to me or even start to make conversation! Would love to hear from those that use men’s bathrooms specifically, since I’m a trans man (not 100% out at work) and generally never feel like I’m fully up on the Men’s Room etiquette.

    1. Alianora*

      (Not a man, hope you also get responses from them)

      I usually just nod or say hello. If they start a conversation I say, “Gotta go, but let’s talk later” and go into a stall, or finish washing my hands and leave. And then I talk to them later outside the bathroom.

      This is part of the reason I prefer to use the single stall unisex bathroom whenever it’s available. One of my coworkers loves to talk on the phone while she’s doing her business and it really grosses me out.

    3. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I am a man. Most men don’t talk extensively in the restroom unless they are rather close friends. However, there is the occasional talker. In general, if you know the man, just a nod and a “hi” are normally fine. If someone strikes up a conversation, there isn’t that much you can do except just be terse and hopefully they will get the hint. If someone is extra vocal and seems to be expecting responses, you can always say, “Sorry, I’ve got a shy bladder. I’ll swing by your office in minute.” Most men will know what that means but you still should swing by their office when you are done.

    4. T. Boone Pickens*

      *Slight head nod* followed by a quick one or two word greeting while you’re moving towards the sink/stall/urinal. *Sup* is perfectly acceptable.

  162. mike_b*

    I’ve entered the wonderful world of Malicious Compliance

    There are supposed to be 8 team leads in my department. There are 3 of us. We’ve been doing extra work for over a year to make up for all the missing people, and had a formal plan to do so in the last few months. All 3 of us have been working very hard to keep up with everyone’s work, while also holding meetings and helping individual people with their work problems.

    The team lead for the team leads is notoriously terrible. She’s critical, petty, and not particularly good at her job. People go out of their way to avoid her. She’s been like this forever, everyone knows, and she can’t be fired because of our union. I was fine with just avoiding her until last week, when we had our annual reviews.

    My co-team lead and I got 3’s in everything except productivity. I was told that I had to work on my relationship with the Problem Employee, despite the fact that she’s repeatedly insulted me to my face. Also the quality reviews she did on our work, which were previously ignored for being contradictory or flat-out incorrect, are now being used to justify giving us low scores. We don’t know what changed, obviously. Partly because my annual review was held 5 minutes before I left for the day. That’s because my co-Team Lead wasn’t very happy with his the day before.

    So no more small talk with my managers, because I can’t trust them. Professional stuff only. Also, i’m slowing down my work to focus on the quality of my cases. If it’s such a huge concern that we can’t meet Problem Employee’s petty nonsensical standards, I’m going to have to go over everything very carefully. I’ve been a lot more relaxed now that I’ve been given permission to do the bare minimum.

    1. Jamie*

      Can you get in on a new project where you can expand your skill set, do something interesting.

      Just this week I told my boss I had expanded my job to include X, with a laugh in case I had to play it off as a joke, and he was totally on board with it and I was like good, because I’ve already taken it over.

  164. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

    Do you ever find your working environment affects you in weird ways?

    The example that prompted this question:
    This morning, I was doing some analysis of some data that’s used in multiple parts of our system. We’ve got a couple of mutually exclusive ways of getting this data, and I was trying to find out which tables were the underlying source of truth for the data. I couldn’t figure it out while I was sitting down. As soon as I converted my desk into the standing position, I was able to get unstuck and start making progress.

    Anyone else ever have similar experiences?

    1. Jamie*

      Yeah – I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been stuck unable to get a particular bit of code to run fussing with it at my desk for hours…and the answer will come to me when I’m driving or in the shower.

      1. banzo_bean*

        Yup, this always happens to me. I used to go for walks around the block hoping this would unlock something. Now that’s not the safest option in my work neighborhood, but I still walk around the office when I need to having a coding breakthrough.

        Also, I always get mental breakthroughs on code right as I’m about to fall asleep, awesome feeling but not great for my circadian rhythms

    3. LilySparrow*

      Showers, brushing my teeth, doing dishes.

      Walkimg is good, but something about running water really makes things click for me.

    4. Anonamoose*

      Yes, that is very common for me. The most helpful thing I can do when I am really stuck is to sleep on it – go home, relax, etc. 50% of the time I’ll solve it/un-stick it within an hour being home, the other 50% will come to me by morning.

  165. Gimicky*

    I have a weird situation. I have a coworker whose job slightly overlaps with mine. Say, teapot tester and teapot salesperson.
    We now sit in the same side of the office, so when I’m on the phone with clients, she can hear me, and will often provide input. This is rarely inaccurate input or feedback, but it’s often redundant, and almost always aggravating.
    For instance, I just got off the phone with a client who needs to quickly purchase a new custom teaset. We’ll be providing a loaner set in the meantime. After I got off the phone, she said “remind them to recycle the old tea set. Also, we could probably get them the custom teaset sooner.” what she doesn’t know is that our teapot makers are slammed, so while we probably could get them the custom set sooner, I know it’d be easier on our employees to take it slow and steady.

    Or things like she’ll hear me on the phone or talking to a teapot repairperson and remind me that we treat clients who are in our teaparty club with higher priority.
    Which I know.
    Very, very well.

    I really don’t know how to say “hey, I appreciate your input, but also I know how to sell teapots, and most of the time I’m well aware of the thing you’re telling me, and it’s insanely stressful to have you tell me how to sell teapots, especially when I’m really busy.”
    Caveat: she’s WORSE at conveying these messages over slack, so saying “hey could you slack me these things instead” isn’t an improvement.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      But wouldn’t it be easier to ignore her on Slack? Less of an emotional cost to either ignore it or type “thx” than if she’s telling you these things verbally, right? I know you may have other reasons for dismissing that method, but it sounds like the best compromise between letting her disrupt your concentration on calls and being blunt enough to make it uncomfortable (which could be your next step if she won’t stick to Slack).

        1. valentine*

          It’s worth a “Please don’t comment on my phone calls. You often have incomplete or outdated information.”

  166. Princesa Zelda*

    I posted last week about my professor not letting me move my presentation. He saw the light! He said that he thought about it and since the presentation was for the last day of classes, we’d move it up and not have class the day I was meant to present, since the material wasn’t going to be on the final anyway. My final grade is saved AND I get to go to the professional development day! I am literally the ONLY person in my workplace excited about working on a Friday, haha.

  167. akaDaisy*

    I think I may have done something… Gumption-y. Ugh….

    A recruiter reached out to me this week about an amazing opportunity. She works for Company A which actually already has my resume; a friend works there, and she passed a copy to her VP. This is important because Company A marks every position as “bachelor’s required” and I’ve returned to school to complete mine while working full time. The VP with my resume is aware of this fact but 15 minutes into the phone screen with the recruiter it became clear she was not. Conversation came to a screeching halt and she encouraged me to reach out to them in a year once I graduate.

    And here’s where the gumption comes in…

    In my thank you, I apologized for the misunderstanding regarding my degree and briefly outlined how I thought my work history and tenure are evidence of many of the traits companies are actually looking for when they state “bachelor’s required” but not a specific degree (i.e. follow-through, commitment to learning, critical thinking, etc. as opposed to “specific skill X” you learn earning “degree X”). I emphasized my interest in the position, that I knew waiving the requirement was almost certainly outside her purview, and said that I would love to speak with someone further about the position if the requirements or policy changes.

    I stand by everything I wrote and I was facing exactly a 0% chance of my information moving further along in the process if I didn’t advocate for myself. On the other hand, part of me is worried that this may be seen as, well, “gumption-y” and not as self-advocacy or a reasoned argument for waiver of policy.

    1. Jamie*

      That was perfect! You weren’t gumption-y at all – you advocated for yourself in a professional way and they can do with that what they will. Seriously, this was great.

    2. Kiwiii*

      I think this is wonderful. A lot of positions marked “bachelor’s needed” will consider people for the position who have relevant experience instead. Arguing just that isn’t unheard of.

    4. akaDaisy*

      Thanks for the feedback, all =) Like I said, I stand by what I wrote, and I suppose if the company leadership/hiring team takes it the wrong way the company itself isn’t a good fit for me regardless. Which would be sad, since this is a really great opportunity…

  168. Getting Poached for the First Time*

    I had a recruiter contact me about a job that sounds like a good fit and would pay about 35k more than I’m making now. The catch (at least as far as I’m concerned; never been recruited, so not sure if this is standard) is that for the first 6 months, I would be employed through a contract with the recruitment agency and would have their health insurance/benefits, which aren’t nearly as good as what I have now or as good as the benefits at the target institution. Does that seem like a worthwhile temporary tradeoff, assuming they want to hire me? Should I be leery of the 6-month contract situation?

    1. pally*

      What guarantee will there be that you will be hired on by the target institution at the end of the 6 month contract?
      Or will they just keep extending the contract by 6 month intervals, leaving you without a permanent position?
      Who will pay the withholding taxes? Is that why the job pays 35K more?

      1. Getting Poached for the First Time*

        I guess there’s never a guarantee, but I was told the target institution “does not want to lose top talent” if the role is a fit. It does sound like it’s meant to be a permanent position, and it requires a fairly niche set of skills. I actually had a second recruiter contact me about it as well, and I’m not the kind of person who usually gets recruiters coming after them.

        If the target institution wanted to keep me on, I would get transitioned over from the recruitment agency and become a regular full-time employee.

        It’s a W2 contract position, so I assume they would withhold taxes.

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Since you’d be employed by the recruitment agency, I assume you’ll get a W-2 from them (and they’ll handle all the relevant employment taxes).

      I’d really want to know what percentage of contract employees convert to regular full time employees at or before the six-month mark. (Lower than 100% is normal, lower than 50% is bad – I’m not really sure what the tipping point would be here.)

      For the employees that don’t convert, I’d also want to know what happens to them – there are really three possibilities here.
      1 – the employee chooses to leave on their own (I’d want more information – why did the employee decide to leave?)
      2 – the target company chooses to let the employee go at or before the contract period expires (generally means the target company thought the employee was not a good fit for the role, for whatever reason. This can happen even without the contract-to-hire situation, so not a red flag)
      3 – the target company keeps extending the contract (I wouldn’t go for this sort of role, it sounds like they’ll keep moving the goalposts without ever hiring you directly)

      1. Getting Poached for the First Time*

        That’s really helpful. I just asked the recruiter about conversion rates; will report back.

        1. Getting Poached for the First Time*

          Okay, got some info back about conversion rates, but it’s sort of ambiguous. They said they mostly place tech people for this company, where the role is to go in and upgrade some piece of technology, and that’s it. Roughly 50% of the people they have placed are still active/in contract extensions/got converted.

          The role I’m being considered for is a creative role. They’ve placed four creatives in the past year. One got converted, two are still active, and one my recruiter was not sure about because she’s not the one who placed her.

          I’m thinking I’ll move forward and if I get an interview, ask the target company what they’re envisioning for this role in particular.

          1. Darren*

            It sounds like the contract serves a kind of probationary period purpose.

            This means that yeah not everyone is going to convert (not everyone passes probations), the contract extensions implies that these are quite tough probations as well (or that due to union/company policy it is difficult to fire people after they are made permanent).

            Definitely discuss the expectations of this contract period, what it takes to pass, etc.

    1. Jamie*

      The Dollop is my favorite, hands down. History discussed by two comedians (Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds.)

    2. Me*

      This Podcast Will Kill You

      It’s hosted by two lovely scientist women and it’s about disease. It goes over both the history and ecology of the diseases. It’s insanely fascinating and very enjoyable.

    3. Gidget*

      I have a long commute too. My go to podcast is Backstory: The American History Podcast. Lately I have also enjoyed Throughline, Heavyweight, Criminal, Sawbones, and More Perfect. I tend to like to learn stuff. There are also some good fictional podcasts out there. If you enjoy scaring yourself Season 1 of the Black Tapes was very good and creepy. I would also recommend checking your library for audiobooks–I definitely do more audiobooks than podcasts.

    4. Kiwiii*

      I Love story-telling podcasts like Rabbits or The Magnus Archives, or The Adventure Zone. Also like cool/funny/professional ladies podcasts like Just Between Us, Bitches Get Riches, or Bad with Money.

    7. Kelly*

      Really depends on what genre you like. My current library has: ID10T, Armchair Expert, Work in Progress, Small Town Dicks, Sinisterhood, Welcome to Night Vale, Lore.

      I also do Audible books. Current selections include books by: Brene Brown, Madeline Miller (Circe), Tina Fey (Bossypants), Neil Gaiman (several titles), Stephen King (The Institute), and other misc.

    8. Lizabeth*

      Wait wait don’t tell me (don’t drink coffee at the same time)
      Car Talk
      Freakeconomics
      Spooked
      Cabinet of Curosities
      How things are made

    11. LGC*

      Uh…what are your interests?

      I’m really in a hole with podcasts (just the running podcasts alone and then one of my friends added to it by STARTING HIS OWN), but Switched On Pop is fun!

      Other than that…general-interest that I feel like talking about? Evil Genius, Nat Geo Overheard, Safe For Work, Bad Batch, Reply All, Endless Thread…I could literally go on all day. I actually sat here for like an hour because I needed to edit it down a bit.

    12. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Possibly a bit niche, but I really enjoy Sewers of Paris. It’s an LGBTQ+ podcast where the host interviews various people about their experiences being LGBTQ+, a public persona, and often some sort of media role. The host is an excellent interviewer and the conversations feel authentic, without rambling.

    13. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      I try to dabble around but I’m a cake and ice cream girl; I don’t go much for vegetables, podcast-wise. I need to laugh; back when I actually had a commute, listening to a comedy podcast before work just put me in a much better place all day than listening to serious podcasts that tried to teach me things.

      So, my go to is My Brother, My Brother, and Me, but I also listen to most Chapo Trap House eps. Jordan Jesse GO! and Judge John Hodgman are also great. I’ve also been digging Penn’s Sunday School lately, though it’s a bit longer and thus harder for me to keep up with.

  170. The Dude*

    In my last position, we would regularly live stream major news events at our desk or reserve a conference room. We also had a half-joking/half-serious agreement that if the president were impeached, we would immediately leave for the day and go straight to a bar. When we told our boss and our boss’s boss about it, they half-joking/half-serious asked to be invited.

    I haven’t talked politics with my current coworkers, but I strongly suspect that they would somehow be even more enthusiastic about that same arrangement than my previous ones. (I’ve gone from a very liberal workplace to a very, very, very liberal workplace.) I would definitely get away with live streaming next week’s impeachment hearings at my desk, but I’m weighing suggesting that we stream it to the large monitor we have in our open office meeting space.

    Is this worth suggesting this to my coworkers, or should I keep my head down?

    1. Jamie*

      I’m team don’t bring up politics at work – if they stream it fine, but if not maybe there is a reason and just keep to your desk.

      Fwiw if that happens, co-workers or not, I don’t think any of us who would be happy about it will have a hard time finding someone with whom to drink.

    2. Daisy-dog*

      How long have you been in your position? If less than a year, I would not. Maybe after 6 months if you’re completely certain they’d be on board.

      Are you in a leadership role of any kind? If so, then I would not bring up anything political unless you see people above you doing so – and know the staff isn’t internally rolling their eyes.

      Since the hearings have just started, save it for when it’s closer.

  171. Julie*

    At a conference dinner, an attendee mentioned a book and my boss asked me to remember the titel since he wanted to read it.
    I have now seen this book in the book store and wanted to buy it for my boss.
    I am hesitant though. It’s not expensive, but still a gift to my boss. I don’t want him to think I am buttering him up, not that I am flirting with him.

    Can I give him the book without it being weird?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Are you interested in reading it? If you are, you could buy it for yourself and loan it to him. Just say Hey I remember you wanted to read this. I had a boss who mentioned that she loved viruses and I loaned her a book on rabies and it wasn’t weird. Well the interest was weird but the exchange wasn’t.

      Otherwise, you could just send him a quick email and say “Hey I saw X book at the this book store! You mentioned you wanted to read it.”

      I wouldn’t buy it for him personally. I don’t think gifts should flow up, even small ones.

    2. banzo_bean*

      Yeah, I wouldn’t buy it for him, but you could take a picture and text it to him saying “out shopping and I saw that book you asked me to remember” or something like that.

    3. LilySparrow*

      Yes. You can get it for him. There is no reason for that to come across flirty unless you are already being wierdly flirty, or he is a wierdo who often thinks people are flirting when they are not.

      Don’t make a presentation of it, just stick it in his inbox with a post-it, “Saw that book from the xyz presentation & picked it up.”

    4. Sara(h)*

      I think that if you have a warm, convivial relationship with your boss, buying him an inexpensive book (i.e. a paperback) that you know he wanted to read would be exempted from the gifting up rule. You are not getting him a gift for the sake of gift-giving; it’s more a thoughtful gesture than a capital-g Gift. But I wouldn’t get an expensive hardcover book — that would be overboard.
      I also like the idea of buying it for yourself if you’re interested in reading it, and then loaning it to him. Anyway, I’d say just go with your gut, but I do land clearly on the side of believing that this is objectively acceptable and not “gifting up” per se.

  172. Queer Earthling*

    I almost wasn’t sure whether to post here or on the Saturday thread, since my job is kind of a monetized hobby, but I’ve been excitedly babbling about this to everyone so I’m just gonna go ahead and post.

    I’m a self-employed adult blogger, having begun this career path in March after literal years of contemplation. Within the sex blogging community, there’s a yearly “Sex Blogger Superhero” list that a site puts out. I’m not only on the main Top 100 list, but I’m in the Top 10 New Bloggers and the Top 10 LGBTQ Bloggers lists!

    I’m really proud that my hard work has been recognized. Plus, my inclusion on those lists has meant a LOT more traffic, which is great! I’m unable to hold a traditional job due to mental illness, and until recently have been primarily a homemaker, and it feels really good to have something like this as well.

    (Also, reading AAM has been super useful. My jobs have almost all been retail, and I never learned a lot about professional emails and things of that nature, which are valuable in a job like this. I’m on the spectrum and my family was blue collar, so a lot of the corporate-type niceties and things don’t come naturally to me. So thanks so much for all of your help, both Alison and the many commenters.)

  173. Julia Lange*

    I am a program assistant for a non-profit program. We are operated under a larger non-profit who oversees 17 counties in my area. In my direct office, there are 3 direct service staff, my supervisor, and I.

    A couple months ago, one of the direct service staff got unnecessarily angry at me for not taking a paper off the printer for her. She sent me a ranting e-mail, which was borderline bullying. But for the sake of keeping the peace on the small team, I let it go and I am cordial around this particular staff member, but watch my back.

    But now her and my supervisor are all buddy-buddy. They talk on the phone and gossip constantly. It’s whatever, but what really gets to me is the direct service staff knows about upcoming policies and procedures from my boss before I know. Then I get phone calls from other non-program staff (intake, the agency’s admins, etc.) about the program and I’m not sure what is happening. I try to ask my boss questions and she seems annoyed at me for wanting to know like it’s not my business.

    I’m not sure how to solve this anymore. It makes me not want to come to work because it’s incredibly toxic. I already was on mental health leave this year because of some other issues with the agency I work under.

    1. WellRed*

      Leave your coworker out of your thinking for now. Name the problem for your boss ( I’m getting calls from x and y about z, but am not sure what to tell them, how would you like me to handle this until I’m given the new slate of programs).

  174. Silvertongue*

    Is it acceptable to wear sweatpants at work? I work in a back office environment that is pretty casual. I typically wear jeans. My dilemma is that winter is coming and I have to do some walking to get into the building and when I get off at the bus stop. I can use Uber for when the weather gets really harsh (snow or ice). Does anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks.

    1. Me*

      I would not. That’s just a layer of casual beyond what is generally ok in a workplace.

      Options:
      flannel lined jeans
      thermal underwear – thin and moisture wicking it’s great under most regular clothes
      Wear sweats but then change at work before starting.

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      According to my boss, Carhartt’s are work appropriate. (I’ve only taken him up on that once. Usually I stick to flannel lined jeans, with or without long underwear beneath.)

      1. Beancounter Eric*

        Time for me to break out my Carhartt’s……current workplace dress code is simple….you must.

        First place in 25 years where cargo pants are acceptable…..pockets to stash my HP, notepad, pens, etc.

    3. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

      When it gets really cold I wear sweatpants over my slacks and take them off when I get to the office, so basically like snowpants without the waterproofing.

    4. CheeryO*

      Fleece-lined leggings! If you wear them under jeans, I promise you’ll be warmer than you’d be in sweats.

      1. Kelly*

        Any recommendations for ones that dont slide off as you walk? I’m chubby so maybe its just me, but I find that they roll and slouch and I’m pulling them up ALL THE TIME.

        1. time for tea*

          What kind of bands do yours have? I get mine from Sierra trading club and the waist elastic is very strong.

          1. time for tea*

            The brand of my leggings is Kenyon Polartec. They’re warm enough to be worn under skirts at 20F.

    5. Normally a Lurker*

      I think this is workplace culture question.

      At my job, absolutely not. But also, we can’t even wear jeans.

      However, there are other offices where it is perfectly fine.

      Without knowing exactly how casual your work place is, I can’t say for sure. Can you ask a co-worker?

      Alternatively, you can do what I do on cold days – I wear my warm pants (wind proof fleece lined pants), and throw a pair of work slacks in my bag and change in the bathroom in both directions.

      Winter’s a thing, and very few people would question changing from warm out door gear and vice versa to nicer indoor gear in cold weather.

    6. Lizabeth*

      What I have been doing in really yucky weather is wearing a pair of ski pants over my jeans. This way I am not over dressed for a very hot office and I don’t freeze outside. I do ski but like my pants fairly loose with suspenders because of the layers involved.

    7. Donkey Hotey*

      In 30 years, across all the industries I’ve been in, I’ve only ever seen one person wear sweatpants to work, and it was because of a medical condition (nothing binding between the legs). Aside from that, personally speaking, there are plenty of other options spelled out here that I would choose before I’d even consider wearing sweats to work.

    8. Alex*

      I have to walk about 3/4 of a mile to get to work, no matter the weather, and I usually wear thermals or fleece-lined jeans. In really awful weather (like, snow past my knees) I wear ski pants over leggings and then change at work.

    9. Middle Manager*

      I think there are very few jobs where sweats are okay. I’m seconding all the suggestions above about leggings under jeans or changing when you get there.

    10. Arts Akimbo*

      Merino wool base layers! They changed my life. They are so soft it’s hard to believe they’re wool, and so very warm!

      I got cheapo ones from Mountain Warehouse .com, but there are far nicer ones at REI. They cost like 3x more, but they’re double-thick and well worth it. Also, Merino wool leggings and shirts don’t have to be washed as often as synthetics– you can flip ’em inside out and hang them up to air out overnight, and the natural antibacterial properties of wool will keep them odor-free and amazing through a few days of wear! (Caveat: I don’t sweat much, so if you do, you might have different results.)

  175. Me--Blargh!*

    I HAVE MOVED

    It’s taken me three days just to shake the brain fog. I think the stress from selling the house made it worse; if I’d been renting, it wouldn’t have been so crazy. But several months of having strangers traipse through my space, keeping things hidden/picked up/spotless all the time and then packing, cleaning, purging, etc. just wore me the hell out. I submitted no applications that last couple of weeks. I just could not even.

    Next week, I’ll probably see about temping — didn’t have any luck with it in OldCity, but who knows. I did submit two applications this week. But I don’t want to temp. I want my own job and my own space; I know what part of the city I want to live in if I stay here for a while; I know where I’d like to go if I don’t; now gimme. :P

    Worst part: Mum likes it cold. I think she’s actually a penguin.
    Best part: NO MORE BARKING

    2. Kelly*

      Not sure if this is allowed but, I just started as a temp/contract through iWorkGlobal. They do lots of long term contract positions.

  177. Shadow*

    I found a secret area at work on Monday! I was doing my rounds as normal when I heard lights and sound. At first I thought I must have accidentally gotten some of the good stuff if ya know what I mean, but I got closer, and guys, it was real, and it was crazy. There was a party or something going on – it was so loud, and bright as day, even though it was night! I got turned around and ended up running right through the middle of it. Everyone stopped and stared at me, and there was all this shouting, and some people ran at me, but I managed to find an exit! I never want to go there again. Anyone have any idea what it could have been? Did I go to another dimension??

      1. Shadow*

        Well, I did run around the new area quite a bit. But I don’t think I want to go back! It was scary!!

          1. Shadow*

            I don’t know about scoring, but they all cheered a L O T when I ran onto a different-colored part of the floor.

            1. AnonyNurse*

              That’s a lot of points you scored. Be glad they didn’t try to make you score the other way. It would not be pleasant for you.

              It’s too bad that some of the people who work in the same building think you are scary just because of the color of your fur.

              Hope you’ve had some peace and quiet and mice since last weekend!

              1. Me*

                A black cat ran on the field at a football game some days ago. Shadow is speaking from the cats perspective. It’s a joke.

                1. Shady Lately*

                  Aren’t jokes supposed to be funny? This is just.. odd. I didn’t laugh, I just wondered if ‘Shadow” was mentally unwell.

                2. Me*

                  Jokes and humor is highly dependent on audience. You may have not found it amusing but clearly other people did.

    4. Coffee Cup*

      Thirding the Room of Requirement! It also reminds me of the party of the Forest elves in the Hobbit. You know, the one that kept stopping when they walked into it!

  178. Stuck In A Crazy Job*

    I got an award at work! Should I put it in my linkedin? I’m looking for totally different roles( trying to go from llama driver/shaver/documenter to just llama documents)

    1. banzo_bean*

      Yeah! Awards speak to hard skills but also those intangibles like dedication, work ethic, relationship with management etc. So it’s always something to brag about even if it’s not in the niche you’re in.

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Absolutely you should. Even if it’s not directly relevant to your new direction, it shows more general dedication and excellence.

      Congratulations!

  179. Nacho*

    Any suggestions on how to prepare for an interview? I applied for a lateral promotion to an area I really want to move to (from customer service to quality control), but I’m freaking out just a little about the prospect of interviewing again. I’m not great under pressure, and I honestly can’t figure out how I ever got my current job, much less how I’ll get this new one.

    Thanks.

    1. banzo_bean*

      1 think of common interview questions and prep answers to them. Edit them to be concise! Then practice with a friend on repeat

      2 Develop a story toolbox. Write different situations and stories about your professional career or experiences that you can use to answer questions with. These can be helpful for questions you don’t see coming as you can easily adapt one of these to fit most questions. Just be careful not to sound scripted.

      3 Get your outfit together now, so you don’t have to panic

      4 Record yourself answering questions and look for common foibles like saying “ummmmm” or “kind of” or repeating yourself. Or failing to make eye contact, etc.

    2. Daisy-dog*

      People in QC can sometimes be super introverted, so this might actually be a circumstance in which the interviewer is just as nervous as you are! And even if they’re not – just remember that you’re speaking to a normal person.

      I was in customer service in the past and QC is a really great move. You know what it’s like to do the job that you’re monitoring and know all the ins-and-outs of the business. Just be yourself!

    3. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Just do a search on this site for how to prepare for an interview. Alison has some wonderful information.

  180. banzo_bean*

    Ok, I just need to vent for second.

    I’ve been interviewing with a company, several rounds of recruiter screenings and three rounds of interviews. Each recruiter screen was 30 minutes and each interview was >two hours It was a long process, and pretty rigorous too. so I had to spend hours prepping in between. After almost every question my interviewers would respond with “Wow, so you really don’t have any professional experience with X.” This shouldn’t have come as a shock to them, I’m graduating in December and I have one internship under my belt in my field but not in this specific domain. I understand discussing my lack of experience, but at some point it gets a little redundant to hear how little experience I have for 2 hours straight. Today they called to let me know that ultimately, they loved me BUT they really need someone with professional experience. I asked for feedback and the recruiter said this was the first time she didn’t have any- they’re heartbroken about not hiring me and they’ll keep me in mind as the team grows. I said, thanks, and all the normal stuff you’re supposed to say.

    I know Alison says that company’s bring people in with a lack of experience all the time for interview, but that they still might choose not to hire because of that lack of experience. I get that, I know this is totally normal and fair. I’m just annoyed. It took so.much.damn.time to interview with this company. And at the end of the day I can’t even get good feedback out of it? AHHH, again I know this is all fair and normal. I just need to scream into the void to vent my petty grievances!!!

    In the end, I don’t think this was the best position for me. It actually sounded a little below my skillset ironically (instead of using Python and R to do analytics I’d basically be using high level prebuilt analytic tools exclusively). I need to code to be happy- so it wouldn’t have lasted long term! Plus now I can focus on applying for jobs I like instead of just working on this job’s interviews.

    If you to have every felt the urge to scream into the void over totally normal interview/job hunting stuff, reply “GARRRRRGHHHHHHHHH!!!!”

    1. Jellyfish*

      Ugh, that sucks. Sorry you had that experience :(
      You did get some good feedback though – you interview well. You weren’t the right person for this job, but your approach is on target. It really is them and not you, and that’s a helpful thing to know.
      Best of luck in your job search!

      1. banzo_bean*

        Oh wow, thanks Jellyfish. I didn’t think of it from that perspective. Your comment makes really happy. :)

    2. voluptuousfire*

      That seems like a LOT of vetting on their end to determine you don’ t have enough professional experience. How many recruiters did you speak with? You should have spoken with ONE recruiter unless there was any extra questions.

      I think in the end you’re better off not getting that job. It doesn’t sound like they quite know what they wanted. Some companies do have a collaborative environment for hiring but this sounds a bit ridic.

      1. banzo_bean*

        spoke with 2 recruiters who asked the same questions in identical interviews multiple times. Salary, experience, why do I want the job, what do I bring that compensates for little to no experience. Overall I interviewed with 4 people. It was just a long process and it really did take up a good portion of my month. The whole process lasted from mid September to now!

    3. Darren*

      Yeah it definitely sounds like they were in the “If they had this experience with X they’d be a guaranteed hire” boat but also in the “Even without that they are a very interesting candidate, and we are seriously considering whether or not to hire them anyway” boat which is pretty much where you (as a soon to be grad) want employers to be. You only need one to decide to take you on anyway after all. Apparently it won’t be this place (at least at this stage) but maybe it’ll be a different one.

      Personally if it were me, I’d have done a practical test if I were that tempted, and basically had you walk me through analysing something to prove whether or not you could do the role.

  181. Pufferfish*

    Long underwear under your jeans; modern base layers are easy to wear. Fleece/flannel lined jeans exist. Knee high socks and a long coat. Or, you could wear a pair of sweatpants over your jeans for the commute and take them off once you get to the office.

    But if you want to wear them at work, I’d not do it unless you see other coworkers dressing so casually.

  182. Ann O.*

    Resume question:

    I haven’t worked in my main income-generating profession for a little over a year after my last contract ended. This was a mix of unintentional/intentional. I started soft job hunting this summer, and I simply left my resume with my last relevant job.

    But now that it’s been over a year, I feel like I need to update my resume to show that I have been (and am) working rather than being unemployed this whole time. But I don’t want my current work–which is dance/fitness related–to detract from my corporate experience.

    Is there any way around listing it first in a typical chronological resume? Assuming there isn’t, how can I minimize it to get people to pay attention to the relevant stuff instead? It doesn’t help that the specific form of dance/fitness is a bit unusual and people tend to focus a lot on it (out of curiosity/interest and not in a rude way, but still…)

    1. WellRed*

      Can you do the rest of the resume chronological and list this one separately under “other experience”

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      In the UK it’s not uncommon to split work experience into “relevant” and “other”. Otherwise chronological isn’t actually compulsory.

      If the most recent relevant is not the most recent, I think you would need to address it positively in your cover letter.

  183. Gidget*

    3:25, on a Friday, before a three-day weekend.I have zero work to do. I am literally the only person from my team still in the building. *sigh* How wrong would it be for me to leave?

    1. WellRed*

      Go for it! I have so much to do today (due to earlier in the week foot dragging) that I can’t even begin to begin so am leaving early for the three day weekend.

      1. Gidget*

        I mean, if someone from the AAM community is telling me it’s okay, then it must be okay. :-) Good luck with all your work. I hope you get to enjoy the weekend.

    2. Kelly*

      Depends on how bad it would be if someone called/emailed/looked for you and you weren’t there…

      1. Gidget*

        This is a good point. Wouldn’t be an issue today, but other days, absolutely. I am planning on sticking it out for another 30 minutes just because with my luck someone would inevitably come to find me. But man I wish I was bold enough t0 leave. :-)

  184. BasicWitch*

    Just popping in with a general call for advice. I’m trying to break into freelance copywriting (on the side of a solid day job, so I’m not going to starve) and I’m floundering a bit. It’s mostly imposter syndrome, I think. I created a website, wrote a few blog posts, did a few small-time projects for pennies, and then… nothing. No cold email pitches, no job hunting, just nothing. I guess I’m scared? Which frustrates me, because I really have nothing to lose by trying! But I keep telling myself, “who would hire me for more than a pittance? I have no degree, no one to vouch that I can do this even though I know I can.” And… maybe I *don’t* know if I can. I certainly don’t know how to sell myself, so I keep reading tips online or look at taking all these “become a RICH Freelancer in just 30 DAYS!!!” web courses that are all over the place.

    For those who built a freelance business, how did you get past the paralyzing fear of not being good enough? How did you actually start?

    1. WellRed*

      Can’t give you advice but want to say writing is a lot different than sales, which is essentially what you need to do. It’s a hard task if it’s not your normal type of task,

    2. LilySparrow*

      My path was so convoluted I can’t recommend it. But I would recommend the FAQ on the subreddit r/freelancewriters. There’s some very sound advice there on landing your first solid gigs and building a client base. Wish I’d had it.

  185. What would you do*

    So I’m actively looking – but my eyes are set on finding a job with the govt. I’ve been getting interviews and I feel that I just need to be patient and I’ll probably get my foot in the door, even if that means changing my career stream temporarily and work my way towards my original career.
    Then, I got invited to talk about a job opening and I feel almost obliged I should apply.
    But, even if I did get the job there and find something with govt, I’ll most likely leave.
    I don’t know what to do. I’m not sure if I’ll ever get something with govt, it might be years until I finally land a job there, but it might be also soon that I’ll disappoint my new employer.
    What would you do?

  186. whatsthematterwiththesescissors*

    Anyone else work with college interns and find it incredibly frustrating?

    At my nonprofit we work with 5 different local universities to provide internships to college students. These are either paid or unpaid, depending on the position and program, and often part of a requirement for their coursework. But all come with HUGE perks such as free food, tons of training (sometimes even certificates), ability to do work from home (depending on position, i.e. social media or grant editing etc), and other misc. things.

    One thing I’m noticing is that for every 1 good intern (not even great) there are 3 totally awful ones! And not just awful in that they are 18 years old and have no idea what it means to have a job. For example, this summer we had 1 GRADUATE student doing an internship with us as a required graduate course in our Youth Education department. She was great for the first month and a half and then suddenly started no-showing. She was a grad student AND a single mom, so I figured life happened and just reached out to see what was up and if there was anything we could do for her such as changing her schedule/work load etc. so she could still get her required hours in. She never responded. I emailed twice and even called and left a voicemail over 2 weeks. I wrote her off as gone.

    Then yesterday, 4 1/2 months later, she sent me a super cheerful email asking if I would write a letter of recommendation for her! uhhhhh…..no?

    Like I said, this is the norm. In the past 2 years working here I’ve had 9 interns pull stuff like this (just checked the intern tracking excel file out of curiosity) 6 of those reached out to me months later asking for references. SIX. We’ve had 1 or 2 stellar interns and a handful of interns you would expect (show up, do the work, but not much else). I wonder if this is just bad luck here or if this is what it looks like everywhere?

      1. whatsthematterwiththesescissors*

        Oh, of course! I responded to her very politely and explained why and she never responded to that email. Same with the last intern who asked me to fill out an AmeriCorps reference questionnaire after he no-showed the last month of his internship too.

    2. Public policy anon*

      As a recent grad myself, this sounds so odd to me. I wonder if there’s some miscommunication going on somewhere, if this is a consistent problem you have. Make sure you’re really clear about expectations, the length of the internship, attendance, etc. at the start, and make sure you/your company are on the same page with the interns’ colleges regarding those expectations.

      1. whatsthematterwiththesescissors*

        Yeah, after this happened to me with my very first intern here, I looked at all that and I just can’t find anything lacking in communication, training, etc. on our end! We are very thorough and our nonprofit is quite passionate about not taking advantage of interns (especially unpaid ones) so we have a solid intern program. We fully train and on-board our interns and are crystal clear on expectations…for them as well as for what to expect from us!

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Hm…maybe look at the hiring/selection process? Unless the goal of your non-profit’s intern is to specifically give these students the chance to screw up and hopefully learn. In any case, I think that this is part of the deal.

          Also, in your example, I wouldn’t put too much weight on the fact that she was a graduate student. Many of them use graduate school as a “I don’t now what else so do, so I’m going to extend my college years”, even if they did work between.

        2. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

          Maybe add a bit during training addressing this specifically? Like, “We’ve had several interns that stop showing up, do XYZ, etc etc, and then reach out to us 6 months later to ask for a recommendation! I’m sure that’s none of you, but it’s apparently many of your friends and classmates! So just we’re absolutely clear…” and then bullet points about attendance, etc.

          It sucks that apparently so many people don’t realize that what they’re doing is absolutely wild. Maybe encouraging them to laugh about how *absolutely wild* it is, in advance, will cause more of them to stop and think a moment before they do it themselves?

          Otherwise, idk what to tell you! It’s not like that anywhere I’ve worked. Maybe you could run some kind of survey of those kids to find out why exactly they ended up dropping out? It’s hard to get answers on that stuff but tbh I don’t know what else you can do!

        3. Anon Here*

          Could there be something else going on? Could a staff member be misinforming the interns? Could there be problems that you’re not aware of? Could the school(s) be giving them bad advice?

          I suggest this based on experience. Sometimes, people try to sabbotage their fellow workers. Much younger people, such as interns, are a common target. I’m assuming you’re asking people why they’re not showing up when it happens, but could you try reaching out again? My gut feeling about this is that there’s some missing info, maybe something that you don’t know about right now.

  187. Productive*

    How can I be a productive employee when in my workplace I sometimes have long lag times. I worked in the finance dept of my organization for a couple of months now. When there’ s lag times, I always tell my manager that I am open to help out with any new projects. Sometimes he does assign me something, and there are times when he’s busy and can’t assign me anything for a long while. He also suggests that I study financial reports and see if there’s need for improvement. So far I found none. I am just average at doing my job at my field, I do hope that I can improve my skills and be more productive. But I would need to find something to do.

    I would love to stay in my organization, since everyone is very nice here. I also wanted to be helpful.

    1. Sleepy*

      I make a list of “big picture” things I need to attend to so I have something to drop back on when things get slow–things that aren’t necessarily priority, but which I want to attend to if I have time. For example, I want complete an online course for Google Analytics and I plan to work on that when my job is slow. Talk with your manager now to figure out some tasks or projects ahead of time that you can work on even if he’s too busy to assign you work, such as an approved online course you could take to improve your skills.

  188. Moana*

    I rarely drink coffee/caffeine. I usually reserve it for “special occasions” like when I **really** crave it or feel like I actually need the caffeine boost.

    Today my gym had a free coffee bar, so I got a latte and was all excited to be extra peppy and productive at work today, which is what normally happens. Nope…I’ve been unable to focus and I’m so unmotivated. I still made all the phone calls I needed to and answered all emails, but I’m feeling so crappy about it all. This may also be related to the fact that it is Friday and I will be on vacation for the next two weeks, hehe.

    Anyone else not really drink coffee/caffeine?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I have to drink caffeine because the options are “don’t and be sluggish on some days” or “do it every day because if you start skipping days and going with your whims, you get nasty AF caffeine headaches, grrrrrr.” I wish I could limit myself, so jealous *sobs*

      My brother doesn’t drink coffee and only has the occasional soda with caffeine in it though. So I know your people…but I am not one of them =(

    2. P3*

      ME! I hate the taste of coffee and I gave up soda for health reasons. I drink a lot of tea, but most of it is herbal and uncaffeinated. I’m kind of the office leper because of it…it is amazing how quick people are to judge you for not drinking coffee!

      1. Moana*

        Seriously!!! I rarely drink either…some people are really bothered by this, LOL. We can all have fun with or without constant caffeine and/or alcohol :)

    3. ACDC*

      I don’t drink coffee/tea for religious reasons and I don’t drink soda for health preferences. The last time I had coffee was about 5-6 years ago, and there are definitely days when I miss it. However, it’s also nice to not feel dependent on caffeine to function.

    4. BC Lower Mainlander*

      No caffeine for health reasons. Tachycardia!!! I like not having the feeling that my heart is trying to fly out of my chest!

  189. Know-it-all Coworker*

    I work in a small office, made up of a Director, Senior Assistant Director, four Assistant Directors (of which I am one), and handful of interns. There are two ADs in my area of specialization, plus one each in the two other areas covered by our office. I’ve been in my role for 3 years, the other AD in my area recently started in August. I was instrumental in my office hiring her over another candidate, because I mistakenly thought we would get along well. She has been really challenging to work with – from day one, she has wanted to make a lot of big changes to the way we do things. Some of these ideas are good, or could be solid with some tweaks, but some of them just won’t work with our program or the culture of the office. That’s fine – she’s new and still learning the ropes. The problem is that she has clearly decided that she knows how to do this job better than me. Any time I try to politely make a suggestion or tell her that one of her ideas won’t work, she argues with me, refuses to listen, or goes above my head to our boss. We recently had to compromise on something and it was like pulling teeth to get her to agree to the compromise, and once we finally settled on something she spoke with an air of “well I guess I’ll humor you if it will shut you up”. This is her first job out of grad school and I understand wanting to prove herself, but her dismissive and know-it-all attitude are really getting on my nerves. I don’t want to sound like an old-timer waving my cane at the young whippersnapper, but I feel like she has no respect for me or my seniority here (we’re on the same level, but I have a lot more experience with the projects we do and with the company culture). Another time, she asked to take on a project that in the past I’ve always handled, and I showed her where all of the (extensive) documentation of the process was and told her to let me know if she had any questions or needed help. I also checked in with her a few more times to see if she needed anything and she said she was fine. On the day of delivery, she had left out some important elements and we had to scramble to finish the project, and although she didn’t outright say it, it was clear she blamed me for not explicitly telling her that this needed to be included (even though it was listed in the documentation that she had access to). My boss is pretty hands-off and in general has been in favor of her ideas – boss doesn’t have much day-to-day interaction with our projects, she just trusts us to meet our goals and provides support when we need it, and her attitude to trying new things is usually “try it and we’ll see what happens”. My concern with Co-worker is less about the ideas and more about the attitude. I feel like if I go to my boss and complain about Co-worker’s attitude, she’ll tell me to work it out with her on my own, but I don’t know how to do that when Co-worker dismisses pretty much everything I say. I think it’s pretty clear to both of us that we don’t like each other very much, but we still have to work together for the time being. I’ve been looking for something new since before Co-worker started, but it’s feeling much more urgent now! I appreciate any suggestions.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      First, ask yourself, what’s the outcome you want from this conversation?

      Then, if you haven’t already, have you had a big picture conversation with NewCoworker. In it lay out what you wrote here:
      -“I’ve noticed a pattern when I make suggestions on your ideas, you ignore me or go to the boss instead of talking through how my experiences would say this idea won’t work. I also noticed that on this big project, you didn’t follow the process and documentation I showed you, which led to a last minute scramble. What’s going on?”
      -Then wait and listen for the answer. Dig into them. Point out that you feel like the way she approaches compromise feels disrespectful. Ask her how she thinks your relationship could be improved.
      -Give it some time. If the issues continue, then go to your shared manager and let her know that you tried to work with coworker and now you need help.

      Also, why do organizations hire folks straight out of school to high level positions? My organization did this and I have learned from that experience…

  190. legobitar*

    How do I get people at work to stop calling be by a very common nickname?
    So, I have a name that has a super common nickname (think Lizzie being short for Elisabeth), but the problem is, I don’t like it. I don’t feel like a “Lizzie” at all. I never call myself that. My friends and family rarely do either; they have other nicknames for me (an even shorter nickname, or my name, or my SoMe handle) (it’s a thing in my circle).

    The nickname is in no way offensive or degrading or childish or anything. As I said, it’s super common. I still don’t like my coworkers using it – but how do I get them to stop? I feel like it will become an unreasonably big deal if I start telling people to “please don’t call me Lizzie, I prefer Elisabeth”. Whenever people ask me if they can call me Lizzie (which they rarely do, and mostly it’s clients who ask) I say I prefer they don’t, and it’s never an issue or anything. But coworkers don’t ask, and I don’t know how to bring it up when it’s already sort of a thing? I’ve been here 4-5 years, and it’s been a slow process for the nickname to spread.

    I’m not in the US, and my company (~120 people) doesn’t really do hierarchies in the day-to-day office life. I’m a supervisor and a project manager (different projects) and I do not feel weirder wanting to ask this of the people I supervise than asking the CEO. I feel awkward asking ANY of them.

    Should I just ask them? How? Or should I just let it be?

    2. Big name*

      Unless you work with some real weirdos with no social grace, you’re overthinking it! I have an uncommon name that’s also a luxury brand and deal with jokes every time I meet new people. A very simple “Ope, actually I prefer X, sorry for not specifying earlier” is enough, and most people will take it in stride. For what it’s worth from the other side of it, I’ve worked with an “Elizabeth” and even months after she started there was a brief departmental confusion and we asked her straight up, “Hey, do you prefer Lizzie or Elizabeth?” and went with what she told us. People probably don’t want to call you the wrong name! They’ll appreciate the clear up.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t worry about telling them to call you by your preferred name, it’s not rude, it’s not unreasonable and it’s not making a big deal out of it!

      Just ask them. Most are reasonable.

      I learned long ago to ask people before shortening their names. I had a coworker awhile back that I kneejerked when I called her by a shorter name than the one she introduces herself as and quickly apologized and asked her if it was okay to call her that. She doesn’t mind the nickname so that was good but yeah, seriously, I wish more people would stop and think before thinking it’s cute or easy or convenient or whatever their reason is for using nicknames.

      It’s been refreshing, lately I’ve had people ask me about using a nickname for me, which is actually my nickname outside of work, so I’m like “Yeah, I go by that too, you’re welcome to use it.”

    4. Princess Leia's Left Hand Bun*

      I’d been in post for a while when over the course of a couple of weeks *all* the more senior members of the department I was working in started misspelling my name in the same way. It was really weird! And despite my preferred name being in the sign off of every email I sent, it kept happening.

      What reversed it though was dropping each a short note in a non-crucial thread or response saying “This isn’t a big thing, but my name is spelt with only one (letter), and the version you’ve been using looks really odd to me”. They all understood that without any pushback.

      Well except one and that’s how I found out who started it (“but you always sounded like a (double letter) name person”). They then had their peers reminding them on my behalf which sorted that very quickly :D

      I’d go with “I’m Elizabeth rather than Lizzie, thanks” and if they insist, point out that they’re being odd about not respecting using your own chosen name.

    5. Blueberry Girl*

      Yeah, I think you might be over thinking this. It’s not a big ask. Will people forget? Probably, because they have been calling you “Lizzie” and you haven’t been correcting them. However, once you start doing so, it should clear up. Will it perfectly do so? Possibly not, but it is not an unreasonable request. I think Big name has nice language to use, especially because it sounds like you maybe haven’t been correcting people.

    6. LGC*

      “I prefer Liz, thanks.” And only if it comes up – which it might naturally! (That is, I’d wait for them to address you as Lizzie.)

      Definitely not, “WHO IS LIZZIE?” followed by 19 messages berating them for the mistake.

    7. Donkey Hotey*

      In a similar boat. My standard routine is:
      2-3 times “I prefer David.”
      2-3 times, calling that person by a diminutive of their name and see if they notice.
      Finally, “In my life, there have been two people who have called me Davey. They are both dead. If you want to continue the trend, go ahead.”

    8. LKW*

      Repeat your name as you want people to call you. Introduce your self with that name. Sign your emails with that name. Remind people of your preference. Eventually people will get it. I work with at Thomas. Not Tom, not Tommy. Thomas. We all call him Thomas because that’s his name. New people might try the nickname and everyone will just politely correct them.

  191. Rachel*

    I kinda hate my job. 90% od the time, I really enjoy it! It’s great! But the other 10% is time I spent being stabbed by pens, punched in the back of the head, etc. (I work psych, so it’s usually clients doing this), or else I’m training/managing new hires (which is only my job if it’s a new hire for my specific program…and most of them are for other programs). I’m NEVER supposed to be doing initial broad-level training, but that seems to be what I spend most of my days doing. That means my program, and the clients, suffer because I can’t focus my full attention on them.

    So now I’m kinda scatter-shotting my way through different credentials. I have my medication aide cert, I’m currently getting an RBT cert (entry-level ABA), and I’m enrolling in a medical assistant program in the spring. I’m struggling to figure out next steps and how to find a job that pays at least a living wage in the area. If my current company was paying minimum wage I’d be gone…but at $16/hr plus a shift differential, the calculus changes.

    I don’t know if I’m looking for validation or advice on what credentials to focus on or what, I’m just frustrated with work right now.

    1. tangerineRose*

      “stabbed by pens, punched in the back of the head, etc.” This is so not OK. I wish there were a safer way for you to deal with violent clients – or to not have to deal with them at all.

      1. Anono-me*

        I’m a little more concerned about your comment that it’s ‘usually’ your clients doing it. Who else is stabbing you with pens?

        I don’t know about the advantages and trade offs to a medical assistant program . But have you considered going for your LPN or your RN? I believe those pay quite well. Also some hospitals will subsidize college for their employees going for a Nursing degree. Additionally some states will offer loan repayment assistance to people who commit to being an RN in underserved areas.

        2. Rachel*

          LPN and RN take a while to get and would require me to commute about an hour to the nearest university that offers those programs. The MA course is one semester at the local community college, and once I have that, I can find a different job while working on my MSW. (Assuming I get into the MSW program I’m applying for. Which is also a commute, but with an MA and an RBT credential I could afford to live in that area.) If I don’t get into that program, I’ll probably apply to hospitals/treatment centers and work towards some kind of nursing degree, or else an undergrad in social work (my current bachelor’s is in forensic science) and then apply to an MSW again. A lot of places are hiring psych RNs specifically, so that’s an avenue I could take.

          It’s all confusing and stressful and I realllly don’t want to work tomorrow. But bills.

  192. bluephone*

    I know it’s late in the day but I have been feeling VERY demotivated at work and I think it’s showing up in my work. My boss keeps asking me what he can to help which just makes me more anxious that I’m about to be fired for being the worst employee ever, apparently :(

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Do you have any idea where the lack of motivation is coming from? Is it sudden onset kind of thing? Or gradual?

      Are you bored at work? Are you having personal stuff that’s just kicking your butt on the inside?

      I had some backsliding and demotivated issues earlier this year due to personal junk. If your boss is truly a good person who simply sees you’re struggling and wants to make things easier, then I wouldn’t focus on the idea that you’re going to lose your job! You’re not the worst employee, at best you’re probably just in the average employee level which is completely acceptable. Are you usually a high performer? I bet he’s just really worried you’re experiencing burnout which I can’t tell if that’s the case or if you’re hitting a rough patch personally?

      1. Bluephone*

        It’s both professional burnout (exacerbated by the low pay, unstable upper management, tedium of the actual work, etc) and personal stress (multiple funerals among family in 2019, a close family member is expecting a baby with a genetic disease that is incompatible with life, my own depression and anxiety, etc). And my IBS is flaring up!

        Basically, everything is falling apart and every time I think there might be a silver lining, it turns out to be an oil puddle.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I’m so sorry that this year has been so rough. It’s awful when the boulders keep piling up on our shoulders like that, one after another.

          I would suggest taking your boss up on his offer to help out if you have anything that you can push off on him, just to lighten that load a bit. I’d rally for a job change because EF low pay but in your situation, with all that other stuff, changing jobs even with that burnout is going to be an additional level of stress that’s just too much to tell anyone to do.

        2. LQ*

          Wow that sounds like a really rough year.
          Can you sort of…give yourself some grace and call 2019 a wash? It’s a weird thing to do, but sort of forgive yourself for all the shit that this year dumped on you and try to make some space for yourself and plan to come back at it in the new year.
          (Oddly this can be a good way to get you back into it sooner, but if you just go…2019 was the worst hellmouthiest year and anything that you can make good between now and the end is fine, but it’ll still be the worst. Don’t try to cram all of 2019 into the last month and a half essentially.
          I hope things start to stabilize for you soon.

          1. bluephone*

            Thank you. I’ve pretty much given up on 2019 (2018 was a bad year too for personal and professional reasons). But I already know that 2020 will also be a terrible year since the expecting family member is due in late winter (and it’s likely the baby won’t survive long after birth). So there’s absolutely no end in sight, as far as terrible things are concerned.

    2. Fikly*

      I’d actually take your boss asking what he can do to help as a sign he wants to keep you, rather than fire you.

  193. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I’m so angry about how you can only get certain supplemental insurances through an employer set up. Despite you paying them directly through payroll deductions. We went through the hoops to set up this option for our employees before I started, so I tried to reach out to the agents after I started asking them for details in how everything works, open enrollment and accessibility since I’d like to you know, be able to let people know the frigging basics on how to utilize the options. Along with personally wanting to use them.

    The local agent is garbage and non responsive at all. So I had to talk to the corporate people and they’re escalating it but it’s taking forever. Like how are you not thirsty for signing people onto your program? This is such a bizarre world since years ago the Aflac guy we had was almost obnoxious on the level of sales he was trying to work on a much smaller company scale…but it was also a smaller area too of course so a small company was still better. IDK if it’s being this tiny fish in a big pond or what…

    All I know is I want frigging short term disability and I’m enraged that if I want to get another agent/company, I’ll have to pull the CEO into this nonsense and I don’t know if we can have multiple carriers because I haven’t ventured down that road. ARGH I HATE INSURANCE, IT IS THE WORST KIND OF NECESSARY EVIL [end caps lock, leave me here to flail on the ground like a toddler who needs a nap.]

    1. LQ*

      The weirdest thing I’ve learned in the last few months is how different sales folks can be. Why won’t you make it easy for me to give you money! Weirdos.
      I hope they deign to let you have the info you need to buy stuff soon.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        It’s mind shattering.

        Joke’s on them though. I’m a tyrant and will bark up trees until I get someone fired or at least tire myself out. I won’t just go away, I will tell your district manager, I will tell your HQ.

        They’re lucky that I’m not actually unhinged and don’t internet stalk them tbh. Find their LinkedIn and contact their colleagues. But again, I do things correctly. I have no shame in letting their employers know they aren’t doing their jobs. Especially when hands are tied like this. Usually I’d just go to their competitor but this is so ugly and involves more than just saying “I’m going to the hardware store right next door to you instead, sucka!”

  194. New Job Soon*

    I am starting a new job soon, and I want to try to go by a different firstname than I have in the past. I’m looking for help with a script for asking my new manager about this before I start? I know it probably seems so simple but everything I’m coming up with either sounds like Too Big a Deal or just clunky and horrible. It’s also a little awkward because I’m sort of well-known in my industry…including by most people at my new company. So I feel like people are going to wonder why I never said “actually I prefer X” at any point in the past 10 years, but pretty much…I started working, it didn’t occur to me to ask to be called something else, then I got well-known-ish, then it felt like I couldn’t change it. But now that I’m switching companies it seems like a good time to make the switch.

    How do I bring this up and not sound weird?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      “I actually go by (new name) now.” Move on. Introduce yourself as the new name to new people, sign emails as new name, etc. Don’t make a big deal of it, just state it as fact. People will adapt.

    2. fposte*

      “Just letting you know I’m going by Stephanie instead of Elizabeth these days–let me know if I need to change any paperwork.”

      It wouldn’t hurt to have a bland answer to “Oh, really, why?” ready; “Always wanted to and only just got around to it!” or something similar is likely to be fine for most people.

  195. Anon for this*

    I don’t *dislike* my job but it comes with a bucket load of stress and hey maybe I will learn how to deal with this and have it not affect me but rn it’s affecting my health. I am well paid and *dont* work toooo crazy hours on the whole but do have work on my mind a lot of the time (just a lot to worry about haha).

    I cannot see myself staying in this job forever but most similar roles seem equally stressful, so I am half considering a career change. What I would loooove to do is to get into property development but I think I’d have to work my current job probably another 10 years to have the capital.. I am currently a software manager (eg I manage software engineers and do technical design, I have a maths degree) and am interested in any other suggestions for adjacent careers. I am prepared to take a pay cut for less stress… but don’t want to take a pay cut for the same stress!

  196. Triple Threat Diversity Hire*

    Feeling depressed over trying out for an internal job… Recently we had some shuffle in our department and my manager took on another team in the interim. Now they’re hiring for his job, and I would be a really strong candidate (and have been trying to break into people management as a career for years now)… but I know that my longest-tenured colleague is also going for it, and I am certain he’ll get the job. To be honest, if I was my choice I would pick him too, because he has nearly 5 years of tenure on me and got a lot of individualized mentorship from experienced team members who had already retired by the time I started. However, there is so little turnover in our department that this is only the second time that such a position has come open in the past decade or so, and the previous one went to my current manager. I don’t begrudge my colleague the job – he very much deserves it – but it’s really depressing to know that I’m just going to be filling an interview quota. I’m trying to look at it as good interviewing experience since I’m not going to be waiting around for the next position to come open 5+ years down the line, but to be honest that is pretty hard right now. It’s late in the day for the open thread but if anyone is still reading, any advice (on this situation or how to get that first people management job) or words of encouragement would be appreciated.

    1. Positive Thoughts For You!*

      You can do it! Highlight whatever people management experience you do have – in volunteer slots, at home, on cross-functional projects where you were the lead or acting lead, etc. Be positive and give yourself the same advice/pep talk that you’d give a good friend if they came to you with this dilemma.

      1. Triple Threat Diversity Hire*

        Thank you! I’m trying. I do have some volunteer experience that’s applicable (small nonprofit board member, then VP then board president with hiring/firing power over 2 contract staff) but because of our department’s extremely flat structure that’s pretty much it for any formal experience. I’ve been the acting lead for a few small project teams, but never the technical lead. That’s always gone to my co-worker because he has more experience… which of course means that the experience gap between him and the rest of us widens. It seems like this place only wants to fledge one chick at a time.

        1. Tabby Baltimore*

          Okay, yes, going through this exercise will provide you with some data points on how your agency interviews, and getting some interviewing experience is never a bad thing.

          HOWEVER, I believe you are a viable candidate for this job, in part b/c you know–after having read numerous AAM postings (which possibly your more experienced colleague has not!)–how to structure your resume to show ALL the accomplishments and impacts of those “small project teams.”

          I hope you will be able to take some time this weekend to sit down and really think through each of these projects (for this job, and for any prior jobs you’ve had), write down what the team accomplished, and what changed in your organization as a result of that accomplishment. If you stop to think about it deeply, you might realize that while the change (the thing the project team accomplished) might seem small from your end, the team might’ve actually affected a much wider group of people farther down the line. That’s the impact, and that’s what you can list in your resume’s accomplishments section for each of your projects or jobs.

          Even if you don’t get the job, one possible effect of seeing your resume framed this way should give the employees on the Hiring Committee a head-snap moment that you are actually performing at a much higher level than they’d previously thought. Which might lead to being given more sophisticated projects and more responsibility. Which, after a time, you can leverage for a job with more pay … somewhere else. :)

          I hope you will apply. Please let us know what you decided to do. And good luck.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is the double edged sword that comes with working somewhere that has such limited turnover, the advancements are so few and far between. Especially if you come in without all the necessary background like the people management part. I’m incredibly glad to hear that you’re not going to stick it out and just wait until that opening come up in another 5-10 years and then live to see the possibility of being passed over again for another good colleague who just edges you out by a bit.

      It’s good to look at this as a learning experience but it’s normal to be bummed out by the realities. I hope that it’s good experience in terms of the interview itself and you feel the itch to start looking outside those walls to your next adventure!

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        Yeah, in my field it’s pretty triangular: the person ahead of me for the big job is still waiting to move into that job nine years after I left. It’s pretty bleak. I moved for a slightly senior role, then moved again for the top level role. There’s only one rung higher on the ladder, being my job but at a bigger firm, and it comes up less than once a year *nationally*. I’m never going to be on that rung.

        No reason not to try though!

    3. LQ*

      Can you look elsewhere in your department? Not your boss’s job, but some adjacent job, something else. Not sure if it helps but my entry into people management is a job that was created for me. It didn’t exist before. I assumed to get promoted I’d need to do either my boss’s job (he’s still here and will be for a few more years) or eh. In part because I didn’t think I was qualified to do anything else. My boss’s boss moved me into a different role, which was REALLY difficult, and a huge challenge and very different from what I had been doing. But he supported and mentored me along the way. I wasn’t exactly sure what was going to come of it. But eventually, a manager role was created for me. And maybe if I’m lucky (and HR gets their shit together) a director role soon.

      I cannot emphasize enough that if someone offers you a “hey this is new and different are you willing to take on a challenge” say yes! I’m trying to convince my boss to give me someone from a different team. The problem is she’s hesitating because she’s not sure she’ll be great at it, her current job is kind of cushy and doesn’t expect a lot of out her and moving to my team wouldn’t be a promotion. All of those things were entirely true of when I moved into a role. I can’t promise her that she’ll get to be a manager in a year, but I know that if she works hard she’ll be able to excel and have a really cool project on her resume that will put her in contact with other people and open other doors if that’s what she wants. But it will be much harder work, I’ll expect way more out of her than my previous boss (her current boss) does, and there’s no promise of a promotion at all.

      I really recommend looking sideways and seeing what else is there. Look at other people at your boss’s level across the entire organization and how did they get there, are any of them willing to have coffee with you.

  197. OG Orange You Glad*

    Ugh. Today the wonderful people that run my company announced the holiday schedule for 2020. They are removing 4 holidays (including 4th of July) we previously received and replacing them with 3 floating holidays. Years ago we received very few holidays which was frustrating because we work in finance so there is little work for us to do when banks are closed. Recently we were acquired by a bank so we started observing all bank holidays – this year was great! Now for our subsidiary only, the CEO is messing around with a new holiday plan that I think screws us over and goes back to having us work on days when we can’t accomplish much without other financial institutions and businesses being open.
    At this point I don’t think there is much I can do to change it, but I needed to rant.

    1. WellRed*

      Sympathy. We were just acquired by a company that offers 2 fewer paid holidays and us also not as generous with random extras like if Xmas is on Wednesday we close Thursday and Friday too and get paid. They are honoring our calendar this year and then nope!

    2. Donkey Hotey*

      I can empathize.
      Current employer finally decided that 2020 will be the first year the company observes… New Year’s Day.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I hope y’all are looking to escape that cluster of a place. Unless there are truly crunched financial needs for this kind of change [and even then, no. just no.], they are doing this purposely to screw employees over in the end. They’re finding more money for their big-wig salaries and bonuses by prying it out of your benefits package in the end. Leave these dickwads in the dirt and fly free birdie!

    4. OyHiOh*

      The primary advantage to floating holidays is that people whose festival/holiday observance is not of the dominant religious tradition are no longer penalized for time off.

      In other words: three bank holiday are Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter. If I don’t observe those festivals, I “have to” take them off (the business is close) and I *have to* use PTO to observe Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and the first day of Passover off. If my company has floating holidays instead, I can come in on Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter, and use my floating holidays for Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and first day of Passover instead.

      Taking 4th of July away is weird. It’s odd to me that they took that off your calendar next year. But in general, offering floating holidays is a move away from diversity an closer to inclusion: That you don’t just want a variety of backgrounds and experiences among your workforce but that you do things that genuinely help people feel welcome in your company

      1. Jerusha*

        It depends on how they’re defining “floating holiday”, though. One way is how you’re understanding it, where each person gets a certain allotment of “holiday” days that they can arrange to suit the holidays they observe. However, the other definition I’ve seen is a holiday that is a holiday for everyone, but what day it is may change from year to year. My organization has had a holiday called “President’s Choice” on our calendar for years. Every year, the President decides on what day that holiday will fall that year. Often it’s tacked onto Christmas, but if July 4 is a Tuesday or Thursday, some years the President’s Choice will be the day that lets everyone have a 4-day weekend (e.g. Monday July 3 or Friday July 5). In the setting where the organization is otherwise generous with holidays/PTO/Personal Days, the floating holiday is a delightful surprise. However, if the organization is otherwise stingy, having the holidays be not only few but also unpredictable is just adding insult to injury.

  198. generic megacorp employee #5001*

    I gather employers can’t prohibit employees from discussing “terms and conditions of employment,” but is there a clear standard of what does and does not fall under this category? I don’t want to think I’m discussing conditions of employment and then find that the company policy I broke in doing so was totally legitimate and I’m in the wrong.

    Location is California, if that’s relevant.

  199. Anon Today*

    Our problem employee handed in their notice!
    There’s some paperwork to finalise but next week we should be able let the rest of the department know which will be a big morale boost, and it means that we do’t have to go through the slow process of dismissal.
    We had been anticipating that it could take 3-6 months . I feel like a huge weight has been lifted.

  200. Highlight Relevant Experience!*

    I sat on an interview panel where the candidate answered all behavioral questions with stories about jobs farther back on his resume that did NOT highlight his experience working in a similar job to what the position was for. Drove the interview panel crazy! Please make sure to mention your relevant experience in at least a couple of your answers!

    1. Bidoof*

      That’s kind of a weird demand, isn’t it? Your stories don’t become irrelevant just because they’re older or at different jobs. Your most relevant example for a behavioral question could be from any job at any time, couldn’t it?

      1. Kiwiii*

        The complaint is that perhaps the anecdotes he was sharing weren’t nearly as applicable in dynamics or topic as they should/could have been.

        1. Meta*

          Perhaps he was genuinely choosing those anecdotes he felt best fit the question. If you want examples from the most recent employment, you can just say so. Otherwise it’s pretty stupid to criticise someone for choosing the examples they feel best demonstrate the skills/qualities added for on the basis of a hidden criteria they couldn’t know about.

          Ask the question you actually want answered. Don’t post these stupid games.

          1. Bidoof*

            Agreed. The best answers to behavioral questions could easily come from any time in your history— the same things aren’t going to come up in every job or every workplace. If you want to hear about recent jobs ask about recent jobs, don’t ask for general examples.

      2. LQ*

        If you had nothing from your most recent job I’d be suspicious that you haven’t learned any new skills, that you stunk at your last job (or that it was a hellmouth job). Because yeah, skills do get stale over time if they aren’t exercised. So I’d be a little like, nothing at ALL from the last job…hmm something there.

        1. Mercy Buckets*

          Then you can ASK about the most recent job. If that’s what you want to know, just ask. Interviewees are not mind readers, they’re gonna answer the question you asked. Not the secret one you had in mind.

        2. Bidoof*

          These are behavioral questions, though, that doesn’t make any sense. If you don’t have anecdotes from your last company about how you manage difficult people or whatever, then you were bad at that job? That’s a wild stretch.

    2. Kiwiii*

      my team just had one of these. it’s a low-level job and her only relevant experience was an internship (which isn’t a big deal, we sometimes end up hiring for a degree) and she just would not! talk about the experience and instead focused on her retail manager experience. Like, yes, it’s fine to spread out what you’re referencing, but please talk up the relevant piece at least.

    3. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      Did you give them any prep time or opportunity to see the behavioral questions in advance? If not, the candidate might well not be coming up with the best possible example, but the one that comes to mind first? I’ve certainly thought of better anecdotes only after the interview was over… it’s a high pressure environment!

    4. time for tea*

      Well… sometimes those behavioral questions might not have happened at more recent jobs. Tell me about your greatest professional failure might have happened 10 years ago. Tell me about a time you worked with a problem employee. Maybe that was 5 years ago. Not all things happen at all jobs.

      1. WellRed*

        Plus 1. I haven’t worked with a problem employee in my current job, for example. I’ve been here 14 years. Don’t punish me because we hire well or it isn’t in my current job description.

  201. Banana naan*

    I was recently promoted from part-time to full-time. I had taken the part-time position because it had a steady schedule and paid well enough that I took the chance to work on my writing. The year I was part-time was incredibly fruitful and wonderful, but financially unsustainable. Being promoted came at the right time (I replaced my ten-year old laptop, yay!), and the habits I developed while I was part-time are helping me keep up the pace now that I’m full time.

    Today my boss asked me about stretch goals. She knew that I took the part-time job to work on my writing and knows I’ve been working on developing it into a business. I’m torn. I want to do well in my role, but my heart is with writing and working it into a sustainable business and I don’t see myself developing my day job into a life-long career. How do I approach my day job now that it’s changed?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Work isn’t a zero-sum game. Just because you want to develop your writing into a business doesn’t mean you can’t improve at this day job. And putting in stretch goals at your day job doesn’t have to harm your progress in growing your writing business.

      A stretch goal could be “do my job, but better.” So, look at your job and ask, “What could I do better that would be benefit the company (and ideally, my own candidacy for future jobs, including your writing business)?”

    2. LQ*

      This may sound a little silly, but you can think about work goals that also benefit in a sideways way a writing career. It may be you want to take on doing the company’s social media so you learn about how to do that and can develop skills to build your own writing network on your own time. Not all the skills will be a perfect match, but you might have some things you can build on top of each other that way. The other thing that may be useful would be learning to automate or simplify processes at work. (hang with me here…) Part of the reason to do this would be both to learn a valuable skill (there is absolutely space for this in writing, especially if you’re going to self publish), but also to think about could you maybe over the next few years whittle the job back down to part-time because you make the work itself take less time because of automation.

  202. Bidoof*

    Any advice for breaking into bartending? I haven’t worked in the service industry for like a decade but I’m thinking about going back. I just wanna show up and do my job and go home. I have friends who do high-end cocktail stuff and make ok money, I was also considering volume bar for strip clubs because I imagine that’s a decent tipping avenue and my capacity for dealing with difficult people is pretty high.

    Some of my friends that bartend in my city have said that me being a youngish cuteish woman is a huge bonus because you 1) tend to make more tips and 2) are more likely to be hired or promoted from bar backing faster because they like having pretty women as the faces behind the bar. I’m not sure how true that really is, though, and I’m not sure how to get started as someone with minimal and very old experience in food service anyway. I recently got laid off from Big Name Fortune 5 Company and that’s the kind of work I’ve done for a long time, so I imagine the couple of applications I’ve thrown out look… Weird. I’m also not sure how to characterize this without it sounding like I think bartending is easy, because I know it’s not, it’s just a totally different kind of stress than what I’m burned out on already.

    Any hot tips?

    1. cat socks*

      See if there is a United States Bartenders Guild in your city. There is a yearly membership fee, but there are a lot of networking opportunities. My husband is a craft cocktail nerd and joined as an “enthusiast” member because he doesn’t even work in a bar. He went to lots of events with brand reps and free tastings. He made friends with a lot of bartenders around our town and he’s not even interested in working at a bar, he just loves learning about the craft and making stuff at home. The site is usbg dot org. Also see if your local chapter has a Facebook group. Good luck!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Your friends are right. If you’re cute, you will go far in bartending and service, especially if you’re okay getting into the club scene. I would just be really careful and do your research on the clubs you go into. They are full of really sketchy things and your stuff will be stolen and you will be hazed, all that crap comes with the territory. You will be tried to get to dance as well at some point depending on the scuzzy management who wants to get their hand into your tips even further.

      They have bartending courses. First you have to go get your license anyways, so you should make sure you get that out of the way and then hit the pavement. It’s pretty much a networking sort of thing to get into really decent areas.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      My roommate was a professional bartender. She did pretty darn good on salary, but not so much on benefits. Plus, no vacation and such.

      She started at small beer/wine only places. But then she did go to an accredited Bartenders School and received some type of certification. This enabled her to move into better establishments such as restaurants and gastropubs.
      There is probably a charge for the bartender school, but it might be worth it if you’re serious. It can be a fun job, but it’s definitely hard work and late nights and people skills.

  203. Willow*

    What do you do when your boss only half communicates with you? For instance, she messaged me while I was in a meeting today with a question about what do about an issue. I was in the meeting and messaged back that I couldn’t deal with it at the moment. When I got out, though (about an hour later), I looked into the issue and responded to her. Then, nothing. I finally went into her office and she said that she’d dealt with the issue already.

    Why couldn’t she have told me that? Why did I have to ask in person? And this is just par for the course with her. She ignores half of my Slack messages and emails, and she only updates tracking systems half the time. I am constantly surprised by things (a problem since my job is essentially traffic cop for our group) and it’s driving me bonkers.

    I kind of know there’s no solution here. But I really needed to vent.

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      Sorry that is happening.
      Could you go to her and ask if there are other ways that she prefers to communicate?
      Give her a few specific examples of the times you got surprised and it hurt the work flow – ask how she would like you to manage it or give a solution if you have one?

      1. Willow*

        Thanks for the sympathy. I think she would prefer all communication be in person or over the phone. That’s not practical, though, due to the amount and types of information that she needs to share. And even that wouldn’t solve it all since she often forgets to tell me things or just thinks I don’t need to know. Her boss knows a little of this but hasn’t taken action to solve the problem—and I suspect won’t do anything until something huge breaks.

    2. ..Kat..*

      The next time this happens, when you get out of the meeting, message your boss to let her know that you are available to assist now. Then, tell her to let you know if she still needs help. Let her know that if you don’t hear from her, you will assume that she has already dealt with it.

      1. CM*

        Or, alternatively, if you’re intending to look into it when you ARE available, maybe spell that out more and say, “I can’t look into it right now, but will do as soon as the meeting’s over.” Then she knows you’re intending to follow up later, so, if that’s not necessary anymore, she might remember to tell you.

        1. valentine*

          Then call her after the meeting or go to her office, whichever’s easier for you, and say you’re now available.

  204. Thankful for AAM*

    Late to the party but I wanted to share that I had a job interview 4 weeks ago and I realize that I handled part of it really badly and it makes me both frustrated with myself and a bit embarrassed. I look back and can hear Alison in my head saying this is why they asked, show them this. But I did not, alas! I know better for next time.

    Also, they ghosted me.

    Both the way I handled it and the fact that they ghosted on me is a bit bad because it is a very small job community so I am cringing at what impression they now have of me. Sigh.

    I hope they think I had a bad day.

    Good luck to all the other job seekers out there!

    1. CM*

      If it makes you feel any better, people ghost after interviews A LOT. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they remember you in a super stigmatized way

  205. Earl of Lemongrab*

    My contract got cut two months ago and haven’t gotten a single interview even after heavily leveraging employee referrals through my network. I’m mid-career and I keep getting very thorough rejections from these, which all boil down to “you have all the skills and experience we want but you haven’t done literally this exact job with this exact title before so you’re not eligible to be considered for this job at all.” I’ve had several people say that skill-wise I’m extremely qualified and they know I could do the job well and yet, because I haven’t had a carbon copy of that same job before, I’m not actually qualified at all. I finally exhausted all my possible referrals this week and I don’t know what to do now. It’s so extremely goddamn infuriating that I don’t even know what to do with the anger anymore.

    I want to just slide back and work service jobs and say eff it, I don’t want to go back to the high stress anyway, but I need ongoing medical care that I cannot afford on that income. In fact, despite moving into a 320sqft studio in a cheap area, I couldn’t make rent alone on a normal hourly job in my city unless I worked ~80 hours a week. That’s before you get to utilities and student loans and food. I’m not eligible for unemployment or medicaid or any of that kind of thing. So I’m throwing out applications all over hoping to piece together enough part time jobs to slow down how fast I’m draining my savings and maybe something will work out before I run out of money entirely.

    I dunno. I’m just rage-reading The View from Flyover Country and thinking about how I live in a world with infinite possibilities where I don’t really seem to have any options at all.

    1. Anono-me*

      Do you need to stay in the city that you’re in?

      Have you looked at government positions? Many people find the benefits, including Medical to be significant value.

      You spoke of student loans, have you reached out to your alma mater Career Services people*?

      I wonder if it might also be helpful to shake things up a bit and have a trusted colleague review your resume and maybe do some practice interviews. You’re probably good at both, but right now you sound very frustrated (understandably so) and that might be making your approach a little stale.

      Good luck.

      * use with caution

      1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

        I’ve worked in various government roles and honestly, never has the insurance been great. It’s regular 80/20 insurance (usually PPO). Delta dental, VSP for vision. You’ll still pay the same co pays and deductibles.

  206. Diatryma*

    I work at a job where I am constantly anxious, there isn’t actually enough work for me to do, and I get almost no positive feedback, even during training. I’m also… not perfect at it, in the sense that I make errors, and sometimes they are serious.

    So when my boss comes to me to go through the forms summarizing mistakes (one trivial, one… you know, I’m not actually sure which one it was, as we went through several other cases where errors happened, but one of those was serious) and, at the end, asks me how I feel about the job, how I think I’m doing, how can I respond without thinking, “IT’S A TRAP!” There are lots of things I would like to change, including about my boss and two coworkers. But outright saying, “Look, I’ve been basically one stressor away from an anxiety attack for the past four days, and every time I see you I expect to be fired even though I know you can’t do that,” seems wrong.

    1. Marion Q*

      I’ve been there before, it sucks.

      Can you answer something along the lines of, “Some parts are challenging, but going through the mistakes makes me realise that going forward, I need to do x and y to avoid making those mistakes again.”?

      1. Diatryma*

        I’ve tried doing things along those lines– usually during the what-you-did-wrong portion of the conversation– and while sometimes the boss seems to understand, other times I get, “But why did you do X?” when the answer is, “I made a mistake.”

        I also realized last night that I’m being trained and managed with the same standard as our tracking system– anything less than 100% is a red X, and 100% is a green check mark. No wonder improvement isn’t noticed.

    2. Banana naan*

      Hello, are you me? I’m going through this now.

      I’m going to address your first sentence: anxiety, not enough to do, and lack of feedback. It seems like they’re all part of the same problem. If you don’t do much, you don’t get enough feedback (or enough chances to improve on your own). If you don’t get feedback or the chance to improve, you can’t improve. If you don’t feel like you’re improving, you feel anxious.

      Askamanager had a great podcast episode about not having enough to do at work. Here’s the transcript: https://www.askamanager.org/transcript-of-i-dont-have-enough-work-ask-a-manager-podcast-episode-26

      Here’s another article about getting your boss to give you useful feedback: https://www.askamanager.org/2013/08/how-to-get-your-manager-to-give-you-useful-feedback.html

      And my own advice: the best way to produce quality work is to learn how to self-correct. For example, I write a lot. It’s not enough for me to just catch spelling and grammar mistakes, but I need to catch issues in structure, order of information, tone, the style, etc. If you feel like you’re making the same mistakes over and over, learn to look for those mistakes systematically. When do you make mistakes? Where do you make them? Marion Q ‘s answer is good to say to your boss when you make mistakes.

      Good luck!

      1. Diatryma*

        Thank you! It’s just such an anxiety-inducing job, not least because… well, I don’t want to do nothing but rant here. I am looking for a way out. At this point, the mistakes aren’t systematic, generally (or if they are, I can’t find the pattern), but the usual one-in-a-thousand errors that everyone gets.

  207. The Meow*

    In our company everyone must undergo a specific health and safety training course. You watch a few clips online, click on some buttons at the end, if you click the wrong one it literally tells you what other button to click. The whole thing might take maybe an hour. You cannot work unsupervised until completing the course.

    A new employee “Bambi” has absolutely refused to do this course. We don’t have computers available on site so everyone does this at home usually before they start their first day. So far she has been reminded multiple times. Each time she apologises and swears she will do it. Deadlines have been set and ignored.

    One time she claimed she didn’t know it was mandatory (a day after sending an email saying “I’m sorry I didn’t do the compulsory course, I will definitely do it by tomorrow.”) Another time she said she couldn’t do it because she was tired for three weeks. Another excuse was that she couldn’t use the computer at home while her nail polish was drying.

    Her supervisor is at his wit’s end because under strict H&S regulations she’s not even allowed to walk to the bathroom unaccompanied until she completes the course. If we break this regulation it is a Big F*ing Deal and we will be fined heavily and possibly prosecuted.

    HR phoned her several times but she angrily responds “I SAID I will do it!” and hangs up. Even the CEO has made a point of driving to site just to tell her she has to do the course. She promised she would, then didn’t. We made arrangements for her to come to HR office so she can have assistance if she wasn’t sure how to do it. She didn’t turn up.

    We’re not in the US and our lawyer has already said we can’t fire her for this. We have never had so much resistance to such a basic job requirement and I am lost as to what to do.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Wait. You can’t fire someone for not doing something mandatory?!

      And this is why the US will never ever in our life time go towards more regulated employment structure. That’s absurd and exactly the thing you should be terminated for. Along with hanging up on HR. Honestly, I’d call her back with a “oh I think we got disconnected. And never speak to me like that again.” but my leash is long and my temper can be short.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I know you don’t have computers on site, but can the company bring a laptop and then have her sit down and do the training on-site? Possibly with someone in the room watching, so she can’t goof off?

      Also, rhetorical question: why the heck can’t you fire her for insubordination/failing to fulfill her job duties?

      1. MissElizaTudor*

        I’m wondering if being able to work unsupervised may not, for some reason, be defined as a core job duty? Because she can do the work. She just has to be supervised. Or maybe you can’t fire someone for refusing to do unpaid work offsite.

        It seems like a potential solution would be to just bring a laptop in and have her complete it during the work day.

      2. CM*

        +1 Taking for granted that it’s true that they can’t fire her in this case, it seems like the only way to make this happen is to bring a computer to work and sit beside her while she does it. She’ll probably resist that too, since it seems likely at this point that she isn’t ABLE to complete the course for some reason and doesn’t want to say so, but this is the best shot you’ll have.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Can you send her home if she doesn’t do it? Is that legal? Without pay of course…

      Firing may be too extreme, isn’t there progressive discipline?!

    4. Lena Clare*

      This is insane! You can’t fire her for refusing to do a mandatory part of the job?? I’d physically drive her to the office, ask her to sit in front of the laptop, and watch her complete the course. Maybe she is trying to cover up the fact that she’s computer illiterate, or just plain illiterate, but she can’t hide it forever. You’ll be doing her a favour to force the issue.

    5. time for tea*

      I am assuming at this point that she doesn’t have a computer or internet access at home and is ashamed to tell you. Can you bring a computer to her at the job site?

    6. CatCat*

      I’m so baffled at the “can’t fire her for this.” I mean, what if you did? Are the consequences of firing her more or less severe the the consequences of breaking the regulation?

      Is just sending her home an option?

    7. Beatrice*

      Is it possible that she doesn’t have a computer available at home and doesn’t actually have the means to do it?

      It’s weird that you have a mandatory online course but don’t have the means to complete the course at work.

    8. WellRed*

      She sounds ridiculous but so does your company. You need to provide a computer and pay for their time. Still, she needs to be fired (as does the company lawyer).

    9. LilySparrow*

      Well, if you can’t fire her for not doing it, then it’s not really mandatory at all, is it?

      The upshot is that she is collecting a paycheck and not doing any work since she’s legally barred from doing anything. Sweet gig, if that’s what you’re after.

      Bambi may be the smartest person there.

    10. !*

      So an employee cannot be fired for potentially setting up your company to be fined and prosecuted? Bambi sounds smarter than her name.

  208. Paralegal Part Deux*

    I applied for a job late last night at a Big Firm, and I just got a call about an interview. Naturally, I can’t call back right now since my boss is here, and I’m the only one here to answer the phones. *eye roll* They just posted the job, too, so I don’t know if them already calling for a job interview is a good or a bad thing. I mean, don’t they usually gather resumes for a while before making phone calls?

    2. Blueberry Girl*

      A lot of places do rolling interviews. We use them sometimes. It happens. I wouldn’t see it as a red flag. A yellow flag, but not a red one.

    3. November*

      I don’t think it is a red or yellow flag.
      I am hiring at the moment, and called applicants a few hours after receiving their resumes. I need to hire within the next two weeks. The applicants who I have booked for interviews have most of the qualifications I am looking for, and I don’t want to miss interviewing them because I was waiting to gather more resumes.
      I’d like to think they called you for an interview because your resume is great, and you fit the job!
      Good luck!

  209. Kate H*

    I work for a small manufacturing company (Bad Place) that was acquired a few years ago by an international company (Good Place). Most employees at the Bad Place only do work for them, but there are a few of us that work remotely for the Good Place (my team included). Previously, everyone who worked at the Bad Place followed their policies (set by our VP, Shaun).

    Yesterday, representatives from the Good Place talked to us about upcoming policy changes, including some that would reverse some of Shaun’s recent changes (we recently dropped from four unpaid sick days to three, but the Good Place is giving us five paid, for instance). It was clear that the Good Place has no idea what our Bad Place policies are, because when we tried to ask questions about how things are changing, there was a lot of confusion in the answers.

    While most of the policies are a vast improvement, Shaun is still in charge and my boss believes that he’s going to twist the new policies to suit him. For example, the Good Place told us that we’d be able to use those five sick days as personal days. My boss believes that Shaun is going to make it so we can only use them if they’re excused (in other words, if we bring in a doctor’s note on our return).

    If we have any issues, we’re supposed to reach out to our local HR. We don’t have one. Harassment issues go to Shaun (HA) and time-off/benefits issues go to accounting. If Shaun does try to go back on the Good Place’s word, is there recourse to push back? Is it fair for Shaun to allow the Good Place to lay all this out for us, just so he can take it all away?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Wait…they were acquired by another company and they’re just poo-poo’ing the new policies and yet are the ones who are supposed to enforce them…so they were set up to continue to be awful…

      I would reach out to Good Place and let them know what was going on because they’re on the hook, being the actual owners here for what the dillweed Shaun does. Seriously. They’ll pay the settlements if there’s ever a lawsuit regarding the policies that are written verses the policies that are enforced. So they need to knowthere’s a fox in their newly purchased hen house.

      You need to run. Seriously, what is this? Burn that place down on the way out! [don’t do that, I am kidding but not about the running part.]

      1. Kate H*

        That just about covers it. The Good Place has been hands-off with actual policy and management in the Bad Place. I don’t know if they’re like that with all their acquired companies or just us. In order to to sue over policies as written versus policies enforced, the policies would actually have to be *written.* We don’t have access to the Good Place handbook. The Bad Place has one…that’s about ten years old. We were promised a new one two years ago. The Good Place admitted that they’re working with Shaun to work out some policies for us so that we can FINALLY have a new handbook. With written policies. That we can consult.

        I would LOVE to run but I have a useless degree, an unusual position, and live in a city that does not have a lot of job opportunities.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I have zero degrees.

          You can say ef that box of sin and flee one day! Don’t let your degree hold you down like that.

          The Good Place sounds like they suck and I hate them. They snatch up Bad Places and give false hope to their suffering employees…they sound like a sack of dicks to me. Grrrr.

          Ah the unwritten policies. Yeah…that’s another joke that companies that gobble up the small companies and yet let them spiral into the mud some more does. I cannot even.

    2. CM*

      If you’re able to, reach out to the person from the Good Place who told you about the policy changes and ask who you can go to with questions if you don’t have HR. Hopefully that person isn’t Shaun. If it turns out to be someone at the Good Place, pepper that person with questions that also helpfully explain Shaun’s current practices, for context. Make sure that, if anybody read the email, all they’d see is you being confused and trying to clarify what you were told.

      That might a) get you answers to your actual questions about what the sick leave policy is (supposing that Shaun’s policy is different from what you were told by the Good Place) and b) let someone know that something’s wrong with what’s happening in the Bad Place without making it look like that was your main objective.

  210. Runnergrl*

    Suggestions as to how to point boss to not buying me a material gift for Christmas but instead donating funds to a charity? We are a small group in a larger corporation and boss gifts everyone on his team at holiday time, company also hosts weekend party, SO’s invited. So the organization is already very generous. Boss is very approachable, and I am just looking for wording and people’s input, etiquette-wise.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Etiquette wise, nope nope nope. You cannot instruct even gently what people do when it comes to gifts. If they ask, then you can of course say “Oh I’d love if you donated to Charity of Choice in my name!” but do not bring it up yourself, it’s tacky [despite you having the best intentions and I say that with love, I swear it].

      This is one of those things that you really have to just accept whatever they want to gift you graciously, unless you are asked specifically about what you’d like for the holidays.

    2. Parenthetically*

      Hmmm. Yeah, I agree with TMBL — I don’t think there’s a way to say, “We appreciate your generosity but please donate to a charity instead of giving us a gift” without it sounding… churlish? Unappreciative?

      It’s boss’s wallet, let boss manage it.

  211. Lysis*

    It has happened twice for me that I apply for an open position with a company, and they reach out and say “Hey, we loved your resume and plan to have an opening soon for a completely different job that we think you’d be a good fit for. What are your salary requirements?” This is without having a job description or anything. And when I ask what range they are thinking, they say “We dont know yet since the job isn’t officially open yet.”

    What do I say at this point?

    To be honest, I am far more interested in the job and the culture than I am about salary. The lowest I would accept is shockingly far below the market value for those positions, but I want to be in line with market value since that shows they value and respect my work. Also, since I’m on the spot, I have no idea what the market value is. So, do I say the lowest I would go is $X if that would be a complete low-ball? I’ve tried saying “I’m really open on salary. As long as your salary is in line with the market in our area, I’d be interested.” But they push back and want a $ amount. Do I just quote my last salary (which I would be willing to go below for the right fit)?

    1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      They sound like shady recruiters. I think the first job posting is a bait and switch, first off. There is no job opening. They probably aren’t going to have a unicorn job opening soon either. They do this to suss out desperate people willing to take any position, or draw people into paying fees for job seminars or phony certification programs. There is no way to give a reasonable salary expectation unless you know what the job is. I wouldn’t even bother to respond to these people.

      1. Lysis*

        It’s not recruiters, but actual employers. One is probably the most respected employer in my city and a Fortune 500 company.

        1. CM*

          Then they’re rich, so they shouldn’t be looking for the least expensive possible person. I’d say give them a range that skews toward the upper-middle of the market rate. If it’s possible that you’d do different types of jobs with different rates, mention that — like, “For a management position I’d be looking for X, but for a basic llama groomer position, something in the range of Y.”

          Alternatively, if you can creep them on glassdoor and get a sense for how their salaries normally stack up, then I’d just say something in that range.

    2. PX*

      Find out the job description of the new role and then use Glassdoor as a very rough guide (and caveat always that it depends on benefits!)

  212. Marketing Newb*

    I need help finding an entry-level job in marketing in the Los Angeles area (although I live in Riverside right now). I’m sort of flailing in the dark here; nobody I know works in marketing so I don’t have anyone to ask for help.

    I just graduated college less than a year ago with a B.A. in Sociology. In college, I had some work experience as a food service worker, volunteered as a crisis counselor at a suicide hotline, and volunteered as a research assistant in three different labs.

    After college, I worked as a clinical research coordinator. I resigned after 8 months because the development opportunities that were promised to me did not materialize. I also realized I wanted to work in marketing instead.

    I went the self-teach route to learn marketing. I started a blog on WordPress, learned some HTML & CSS, learned about SEO, got an Ahrefs subscription, and learned how to use it, got certified in Google Analytics, learned how to market on Instagram, did hashtag research on Iconosquare, and etc.

    I started applying for jobs in Riverside and got rejected. I feel totally gutted right now and really alone. Can someone in marketing please advise me on what I’m doing wrong?

    1. MissGirl*

      I would target more healthcare related firms to make your other experience more applicable. For instance I interned for the digital marketing arm of a large health system in L.A.

  213. riot grrrl*

    How do I get over having a very vivid sex dream about a coworker? I already have a crush on this person, we work closely together, and I have no intention of ever making a move. Every time I see them I remember the dream. Help!

    1. LGC*

      The good news is they will inevitably find a way to make themselves unsexy. (I speak from experience.)

      This sounds a lot like the pink elephant theory – you’re trying not to think about pink elephants (or, in this instance your coworker in a pink elephant thong), and then you end up thinking about nothing but pink elephants. So…the trick is to think about something else. Perhaps England. (Okay, maybe not England, that’s a really bad example.)

      Also, the one thing I’ve been trying to do this year is forgive myself for my flaws. And you should too – all you did was have impure thoughts (onoes!) about a coworker. I think part of the reason you’re thinking so much about it is because you feel bad about it…but unless they’re a mind reader, they’re not going to know that you had a very vivid sex dream about them unless you tell them. And if they are a mind reader, I can guarantee that the sex dream is the least of their concerns.

      The crush might be a bit more obvious, but that’s more “we will never speak of this again” territory. And I think that might be what you’re afraid of them finding out – that you’re attracted to them.

    2. Serious Pillowfight*

      Picture them doing decidedly unsexy things like engaging in gross bodily functions a la burping, farting, picking their nose, and using the toilet. Sounds ridiculous but it works!

    3. Parenthetically*

      Oh gosh. Yep, you just need time. I had an incredibly vivid sex dream about a classmate when I was in high school, and I remember being SO embarrassed for weeks every time I saw him. But over time, as the dream became less real in my memory, and as I continued to have to be in the same damn study group with him week after week, it became less awkward. Exposure therapy, kinda.

  214. banzo_bean*

    Sorry for the double post- I just got off the phone with a free advising session for tech job seekers. The recruiter looked over my resume and gave me tips. They were mostly good, with the exception that she told me to remove my bachelor of arts from my resume.

    I am graduating next month with a masters in data science. My undergraduate degree was women’s studies. Do you guys think I should hide this? Is this really going to detract from my masters? I feel so bummed right now, I did not expect that suggestion.

    1. LGC*

      So wait, how long ago were you in undergrad? I feel like she told you to remove it because it’s probably not going to be relevant to jobs you look for – and it might be something that Alison might suggest! I don’t think it’s in any way personal, but I can totally see why you feel hurt by it.

      I can see it in the reverse direction – if someone had a bachelor of science and then got a master’s in a humanities field, you might not list the BS because that’s not relevant. (In a perfect world. Unfortunately, in this world we value humanities less than STEM fields, so…)

      1. banzo_bean*

        No, it wasn’t about time in between or anything like that she just felt it raised questions. So I guess I’ll take it off.

    2. MissGirl*

      I got a bachelors in print journalism and then ten years later an MBA with an emphasis in data. Now on my resume I just use the generic communications for bachelors since that was the broader college. I wouldn’t put women’s studies just because it would bring up questions in their mind as to why the change, why the original degree. Keep them thinking about now.

      Remember, taking it off your resume doesn’t negate the experience.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes, this. Don’t take off the BA itself! That would be very odd; it belongs on your resume. But you don’t need to list your major if you have reasons not to.

      2. Beatrice*

        Yep! I have an English degree, which is completely unrelated to my current field. My resume and Linkedin say I have a BA degree, but I do not list the major. If someone asks about it, I have a great spiel about how literary analysis was an abstract way to develop the analytical problem solving skills I now use in my work, but I’d rather just keep the focus on what I do.

  215. Sarah-tonin*

    Hi!

    I’m currently job hunting. I have two part-time positions, and I’m looking for something full-time. I’m really hoping this process ends sooner rather than later, but I’m also anticipating this taking at least a few months (and I’ve been looking for about a month).

    The manager at one of my jobs, which I’ve had for almost two years, knows I’m looking and is supportive. They’re also one of my references. Zero issues there. Although they’re leaving for a new job next week, so I don’t know how I’d list them when the application asks for references. Do I list this new job’s info?

    My bigger question is my other job. I’ve had it for almost six months, and they do not know anything, although I’m sure they’d understand as full-time is generally the goal for people in my field (libraries, although I’d imagine this is true of most fields). Should I let our HR person know that I’m looking? I check “no” when an application asks if they can contact this library. The HR person isn’t my immediate supervisor, but they interviewed, hired, and did a majority of my training and I feel like we have a good rapport. I don’t feel like I’ve been at this job long enough for me to ask them to be a reference. We’re already short staffed as someone else recently left for a full-time job, so I’d imagine they wouldn’t be thrilled to know that I might also leave at some point soon, although, again, I’m sure ultimately they’d understand. I don’t think the HR person would tell my supervisor.

    1. Sarah-tonin*

      Also!!!! You were all so helpful when I asked about getting off Friday nights at this newer job a month or so ago! Thank you. :)

      Unfortunately I am stuck on this shift for the foreseeable future, and (according to my supervisor) apparently this is something I should have known about when I was hired, as the HR manager said something. The HR manager said nothing, and I honestly don’t think I would have accepted this job had I known I’d be working until 9pm every single Friday. So I’m not super happy and this honestly is what prompted me to seriously start my job hunt.

    2. WellRed*

      Ask the manager reference for her contact information now for after she leaves. Don’t put her new job info down. It’s not relevant to you. I wouldn’t tell HR at second job anything. What purpose would it serve?

      1. Sarah-tonin*

        Thank you! I’d only put the new job info down because they’d need a way to contact this manager, and obviously the library we work at would no longer be valid for them.

        Love your username!

  216. Maeve*

    If you told the big boss that you were interested in a position that was about to open up (my manager’s position, she is leaving) and he brought you a printed copy of the position description when it was ready and said “I believe there are some qualifications on here that you don’t meet but that doesn’t mean that’s the end of the discussion” what would you think that meant?

    For context, my boss was promoted from my current position and also didn’t have all the qualifications. (But she did have a bachelor’s in business, one of the qualifications, and my bachelor’s is in something unrelated.) But also they just updated the description so I’m kind of wondering if he just doesn’t want me in the position so made it not match my experience on purpose?

    1. MissGirl*

      I would think it meant it’s not the end of the discussion so I should just apply. Why are you preemptively rejecting yourself?

    2. LilySparrow*

      The big boss physically walked a copy of the job listing to your desk and told you not to be deterred by anything that may not be an exact match.

      That means he wants he wants you to apply and sees you as a possible fit for the job. He hasn’t promised you the job (rightly so), but he’s encouraging you. Strongly.

    4. Anono-me*

      In a relatively healthy work environment, it means figure out how you can address concerns about the qualifications that you don’t have.

      For example:
      Take a couple business courses to address the fact that you don’t have a business degree if that’s one of the requirements.

      Figure out how your fantastic llama grooming skils can transfer into teacup poodle grooming skills.

      If you’re really in a terribly dysfunctional work environment and they did rewrite the job skills to rule you out rather than talk to you about it; then this is a big red flag telling you to start looking for something else.

    5. The Other Dawn*

      It means he thinks you should apply and at least have a shot at it. And the description likely changed because they thought about what they want different this time around. Maybe they want someone to handle X and Y when your boss only handles X. I recently changed a job description when someone left. I decided that I wanted the position to go more in the direction of being universal rather than focused on just a few things.

    6. quirkypants*

      Agree with the above, you have a shot at it. You may have to convince them or show them how you plan to overcome or address any concerns they have.

      Depending on how big of a stretch it is they may still open the role to others or post it publicly but you have a real shot.

  217. Public Facing Librarian*

    I’m typically Monday through Friday with special events on weekends. The fall has been exceptionally busy with events and work travel over the weekends. Last Saturday was my first one off since the end of August and I slept through the weekend. Which was okay except, I am working in a public facing event from 7:30 am to 5:00 pm tomorrow, a lot of face time. Face time with some of the same people in my community who think I don’t do a very good job. (not an issue with my supervisor or friends board or most of my stakeholders) A tiny bit resentful. Last weekend event until 2020. Last public facing event until 2020. I can do anything for 10 hours that would appall me if I had to do it for a lifetime.

  218. Budgie*

    Christmas is fast approaching, and like last year I’m not looking forward to my coworkers asking everyone to contribute to the boss’s and grand boss’s gifts. I not only hate that I feel obligated to chip in, especially because I’m newer…I also hate that the only people allowed to sign the cards are the ones who coughed up the cash. People who don’t are gossiped about and accused of not being a “team player” (one of the most loathsome phrases along with “work family”). It is incredibly unfair all around, and I just don’t know how to avoid it without being ostracized myself.

    1. Lena Clare*

      Oh wow, this is not ok!
      Say “sorry it’s not in my budget this year!” and then maybe start looking for another job.
      You could, if you wanted, show your co workers a link to this site and the letters that talk about “gifting up” and what an imbalance of power it is.

      1. Beatrice*

        I’ve done that! It worked! For that year, anyway…

        I’m a manager now, and I don’t want a gift from my team, but I’m unable to talk them out of it. I had a confidential talk with one of my team members about it a few weeks ago, and asked her to shut it down if she could, but she said one particular person on my team is the driving force behind organizing it, and she won’t let go unless I talk to her directly, and it’s impossible to do that without deeply upsetting her, so I just let it go.

  219. Jaley*

    What are some things in the $150 to $200 price range that would make good holiday gifts for a White Elephant party? Just to be clear, these gifts are all purchased by the Employer and each employee ends up with one thing.

    1. Sunflower Sea Star*

      Noise canceling headphones
      Tickets to a touring Broadway show
      GC to a hotel/resort nearby
      Annual membership to a local museum/aquarium/zoo

      1. Banana Pancakes*

        These are all great @Sunflower Sea Star!

        I’d add:

        Gift card to local grocery chain/Walmart/Target
        Keurig Duo coffee maker
        Car wash/car detailing package

        1. The Other Dawn*

          Yes to a grocery store gift card. Food shopping around the holidays can get expensive, so this would be a nice offset to the higher grocery bill.

    2. Colette*

      Tablet
      Luggage
      Instapot
      Packages such as a gift card to a movie theatre and one to a restaurant
      Gift cards to a local theme park

  220. char*

    The letter from the person who was tracking sick time reminded me of this story: I once had a coworker who kept snidely commenting that “it must be so nice to take a vacation” in regards to a planned two-week absence of mine… even after I repeatedly told her that the reason I was taking time off was because I was going to be getting and then recovering from surgery. Yeah, spending two weeks feeling like death and manually draining fluids out of my own body sure was a great vacation…

    1. Fikly*

      My mother got a comment like that from her boss when she returned from a trip to visit her dying father.

  222. Sara(h)*

    I think that if you have a warm, convivial relationship with your boss, buying him an inexpensive book (i.e. a paperback) that you know he wanted to read would be exempted from the gifting up rule. You are not getting him a gift for the sake of gift-giving; it’s more a thoughtful gesture than a capital-g Gift. But I wouldn’t get an expensive hardcover book — that would be overboard.
    I also like the idea of buying it for yourself if you’re interested in reading it, and then loaning it to him. Anyway, I’d say just go with your gut, but I do land clearly on the side of believing that this is objectively acceptable and not “gifting up” per se.

  223. The Other Dawn*

    Just came here to say I made it through my first real budget ever! I’ve never had to do anything other than let previous bosses know how much money to put aside for training. Now that I’m a department manager, I’m The One. I have to say, it was very tedious and so hard to figure out the true “needs” versus the “wants.” But I made it though. :) Hopefully it gets approved.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Yay!
      I remember it being hard the fist time I made a budget too. But it gets easier each year once you’ve got it set up.

  224. Confused*

    Can someone tell me if this is normal, or if I’m right to think this is crazy? I’m desperately searching for a new job.

    I started a new job in June of this year. While I’ve worked in the same industry, I was working in a new office in a new role, and in my interview I asked a LOT of clarifying questions about my role and what I would be doing (this is relevant). Let’s use AAM lingo and say I’m a teapot designer, and teapot designers are each responsible for a single color. I asked in my interview a lot of questions about the role, if I’d just be assisting teapot designers or if I would actually be one, and so on and so forth. They confirmed I’d be a teapot designer and several other good things about the role that I assumed to be true.

    When I started, I was told I’d be working with the person who designs blue teapots, as that portfolio is also responsible for teal and navy teapots (which are a smaller part). I assumed I would get trained up and take over the teal or navy teapot portfolio, but every time I tried to ask clarifying questions about the role, I got vague answers from my coworker, who said he wanted to focus on the “high-level” stuff for all the teapots while I did the day to day. I didn’t get much clarification on what that even meant, but as I was new, I tried to be patient. It’s worth noting that my coworker was out my second two weeks and I had to manage the whole portfolio by myself at that time, and he’s since been out an additional five weeks since I’ve started, so gone nearly two of my first four months.

    As I wasn’t getting much clarity on my day-to-day responsibilities and the plans for the role, I went to the person that my job description says I report to, the Director of Teapots. I spoke with her and she was also a bit vague, but said she was happy with my work. She was moving out of the role in a few months (the previous director, who hired me, left the week I started), and a new director would be coming, and they were hiring more people, so we could have this conversation later. Okay. Still a non-answer, but whatever.

    A few weeks later, my coworker went on his second chunk of time out of the office, in which I had to take over his work. It’s mid-August now. This is when I made my first “mistake.” I notice that one of our higher-ups is irked about a document I’ve had to keep routing back and forth, the information that’s causing the delay has to come from one of our field offices (who keep getting it wrong) and I have no access to the correct information since the document predates my employment. I assume she is just upset with our field office, or about the situation. It is not mentioned that this is my “mistake” until the end of October – I hear nothing about it once she clears it. Life continues on as usual, and we get a new director. During this time, I tell my contracting manager (I’m a contractor who works on-site for all of this) about my frustrations. She agrees that it’s an issue but wants me to talk to the new office director.

    It’s now September and I talk to the new office director. She actually gives me a bit more clarity on what to focus on, but is still somewhat vague, and weirdly says that I’m an assistant teapot designer (which I correct). I meet with her and the former director one-on-one.

    A few weeks later, a bunch of stuff surrounding one event for VIP leadership blows up. Our higher up is irked about a document surrounding it, and it turns out my coworker provided me incorrect budget information and was out of the office while all this happened. He allegedly takes the blame for this, but the higher up blames me. Then I actually screw up. Something unexpected happened last-minute at the event, and I had to course-correct, and I did it completely the wrong way. This is on me and there’s no real excuse.

    After my screw up, this is where things get confusing. My coworker (who I assumed was training me) tells me he was upset I went to my director one-on-one, as he’s my “boss”. My JD does not say I report to him, nor would someone in my role report to…someone else in my role. That’s not a structure we have in our office. But my boss has co-signed on all of this…leading me to believe they deceived me about the role in the first place.

    I’m actively looking, but…am I crazy? Is it me? I can’t stand going to work. Everyone else at my job seems fine but I can’t deal with this.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I don’t think you’re crazy. The place sounds pretty dysfunctional. And that may be their normal.

      There are some places where perhaps you could have spoke up sooner (such as the document floating around) to get a resolution maybe, or asked for better clarification about company processes. As for someone giving you incorrect budget information, I’m not sure? Was there any approval process in place to double check this? As for screwing up something at a show, well sometimes unexpected things happen with shows. Either you forgot to ship something, forgot to arrange something, or something completely out of your hands happens. If you were able to correct it calmly on the fly, and find a solution to take care of it, that’s not the worst thing in the world. I don’t know what you did the ‘wrong way,’ but how would you know? Sometimes you just have to make a decision quickly-on the spot.

      I guess what you’re really asking is: are you a good worker? I don’t see that anything you’ve described means you’re a bad worker, especially given you are new to the job, and it sounds like you haven’t been given much guidance. However, the culture at some companies demands people hit the ground running and are unforgiving of any mistakes.

      It appears you’re in this situation where you’re not a good fit for this company’s culture. It also sounds like they’re going through turnover and indecision about structure. Perhaps this could change once settled with a good Director in place? But given you say this is a contract position, I think you’re right to be looking elsewhere in the meantime.

      1. Confused*

        I think I’m a bad fit. For the budget thing, our budget office actually checked the document – it just turns out my coworker had budget information buried in his email that he didn’t share with anyone. I like to think I’m a good worker, all feedback my contract manager got was glowing up until this mistake (which I don’t think they told her about) and now all of a sudden they’re acting like they’ve been unhappy the whole time when I’ve repeatedly ASKED what I can be doing/doing differently and getting “nothing” as a response.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          Well, I think you’ve probably answered you own question.
          In truth it sounds like it’s not so much you’re a bad fit, but maybe they’re just too disorganized or chaotic right now to really train someone properly. Unfortunately, for you, it can (in their eyes) make it seem you’re not catching on, but realistically, who could in that environment?

          I think AAM has some advice about surviving when you’re biding time in a bad work situation, doing your best, trying to learn what you can, and maybe finding at least one advocate you can use as a reference and/or one achievement you can point to being successful at while you’re there. You can try again to speak to your direct manager about what you need to be more successful in the role, and see if that helps any, but my guess here is that that ship may have sailed (but you can try).

          Otherwise, begin the job search. I think you have several good reasons why you’d leave early (being a contractor is a good one, you can say you wanted a permanent role, and honestly, most contract-to-hire roles never end up becoming full-time anyway). There is nothing wrong with wanting more structure and training when you’re onboarded–jobs with that exist. And it’s a pretty good explanation why you’re looking, and what to ask about when interviewing. Unfortunately, sometimes these things happen and unfortunately, it seems you got caught up in one.

    2. Anono-me*

      This sounds very odd to me as well and definitely sounds as if you’re being treated as an assistant to the teapot designer rather than a teapot designer. One thing you may want to check into pay. Are you being paid like a teapot designer or are you being paid like an assistant to a teapot designer?

      Good luck.

      1. Confused*

        I’m definitely being treated as an assistant, until he’s out of the office when I have to do everything, which is pretty often. I’m getting paid a teapot designer salary though.

    3. CM*

      Based on what you’re describing, it sounds like either someone lied to you, or so many people were bailing out of this department that they didn’t care enough to pay attention to the details when you were getting hired. That really sucks.

      I think, for your own peace of mind, it’s important to bring this out into the open and not let it fester as a weird, unspoken thing. I’ve never been a contractor, so I don’t know how that piece of it works, or where your contracting manager might come into it. But, I think you need to go back to the director, with or without your coworker, and explain as calmly as you can that, when you took the job, you specifically clarified that you were being hired as a full teapot designer and not an assistant, and you had assumed you were training to take over part of the blue portfolio, but now you’re very confused to learn that everyone believes you’re an assistant. And see what they say.

      More than likely, they’re going to say, “Well, sorry, but you ARE an assistant designer and it’s weird that you didn’t know that” (maybe using different words). So, before you go into that conversation, you need to decide a few things. 1) Are you willing to stay until you find a new job if it turns out you’re an assistant designer? 2) Are you willing to stay WITHOUT AN APOLOGY, if it turns out you’re an assistant designer? 3) If not, what would you accept as an apology?

      Even if you ARE willing to stay without an apology, it’s still worth saying out loud that this is what happened. I’ve had weird stuff like that happen to me, and I didn’t say anything because I thought I’d look petty or crazy or something, and it kept bothering me later, because I hated that I let them think they were right.

  225. MissDisplaced*

    Aw! Man, I missed the whole Open Thread yesterday. If anyone reads this far, I have a question about job search.

    I’ve recently had several interviews that got to the phone interview stage only. Then…nothing.
    I know this can be fairly normal, but it feels like more than usual compared to my past searches.

    I suspect it’s my salary (which may be high for similar roles) or it’s the because previous jobs were 3 years and I’ve been at current job 2 years. With both, the companies moved, which really changed the commute and dynamics of the office. I think those are reasonable reasons to want to make a switch, but it might not be coming over well.

    1. WellRed*

      I’d leave office dynamics out of the conversation ( if you’re indeed mentioning it). A big change in commute is reason enough to look but trying to explain a change in dynamics is gonna be hard and you risk it looking like you’re the problem.

    2. quirkypants*

      It probably varies due to industry but in wouldn’t take two jobs where you’ve started two years as a huge red flag. I work in an industry where people move around a lot, though.

      I will pass on people whose salaries expectations are out of whack either with the market OR what I can offer. I just don’t want to waste their time or my own.

      Questions to consider, is the salary you’re quoting reasonable for the role? You used the word similar roles but are they as similar as you think?

      if the salary is fair but at the high end, are you presenting your experience as someone who deserves to be at the high end of a range? I’ve sometimes hired less experienced people at the low end of my range who I would never give the high end to.

      Last, how badly do you need a job? I am not suggesting you take an unfair salary but there was one time in my career when I was paid far above average at a very demanding organization. When it came time to move on, I knew I wasn’t going to get the same salary so I took a cut and worked at a far less demanding place with work I really enjoyed. If I had kept looking I might have eventually matched the salary but it would have taken a lot longer and I didn’t want to wait.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Currently, I’m making say $69k. When I phone screen, I’ll say something like “I’m currently in the 60,s.” Granted, that may still have been high for a couple of the places that were fully remote jobs, but I think would’ve been fine for others.

      I’ve tried flipping the “why are you looking” script to say something like “My role has undergone a change and what attracted me to your role was A and B, which is what I’d like to do more of.”

  226. quirkypants*

    Might be too late to expect an answer but what responsibility do you think a manager had to facilitate or plan things like team lunches? Or try to bring people out of their shell?

    One of my new team members complained that the team is all pretty heads down and focused on work and not very social.

    For context, we have a social committee that plans things (our company is about 50 people) and they’ve planned about 3 things since this employee started. The events are well attended.

    When I’ve planned past lunches, I don’t get the sense the team really wanted to go. I think they came out of obligation because their manager asked.

    Thoughts?

    1. WellRed*

      I don’t think lunches are going to fix it for the new employee. Did they come from a place where people chatted more during the day? It can be hard to come into a new place where everyone is all serious and all “focus”

      1. quirkypants*

        That’s what I’m wondering actually.

        He compared us to another team that’s more chatty but the nature or their role (sales) means they’re all a bit more extroverted and the folks on my team are a bit more on the quiet side.

        I’m leaning towards suggesting he organize something if he wishes but the folks on our team might just be more quiet and we should respect that.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Oh God! I’m very much an introvert and absolutely hate hate hate trying to be brought out of my shell. My shell is fine, thanks. If I want to come out I will.

      It sounds like new employee has plenty of things to go to outside of the team.

    3. Asher*

      I’d be pretty pissed off if my manager started trying to “bring me out of my shell” and get me to be more social to appease a new colleague. I go to work to work. Sounds like he isn’t a good fit for that team. Maybe that should have been considered in the hiring process?

    4. The Other Dawn*

      This seems to me like he’s just not a good fit for the team. Being heads-down and focused on work isn’t a bad thing. It sounds like he’s looking for a team that’s more social during the day, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing either. It’s really dependent on the work your team does, which might require a quieter atmosphere that he’s just not cut out for.

    5. CM*

      If you haven’t already, ask the new team member what they’re picturing when they say they want the team to be more social. That way, you’re dealing with specific requests rather than the general idea that maybe people aren’t as social as newbie wants them to be. Depending what they are, the requests might be something you’re happy to support, don’t want to get involved in, or can encourage newbie to vocalize to the team themselves.

      1. Close Bracket*

        Yes, ask for specifics. You mention planning lunches, but that might not be what Newcomer has in mind. My first thought was that Newcomer should join the social committee, but again, that might not be what they had in mind.

        Don’t force anyone who is not social to be social, but do make introductions to people who *are* social. Newcomer’s needs for non-robot interactions are valid, but that doesn’t mean their team has to satisfy them. They can get their human interaction needs met from other people.

  227. Decima Dewey*

    On Thursday we had a Zoo program at my library branch (the zoo is a few blocks up the street). The guest of honor was Aurora, a North American porcupine. Aurora was named after Disney’s Sleeping Beauty, and her mother, Merriweather, lived at a Disney facility. I got to read the group a picture book about a porcupine who liked to give hugs, but didn’t want to hurt the other animals in her class (solution: a pillow case dress to keep her quills down).

    Two handlers coaxed Aurora out of her crate onto a table. The porcupine got fed fruit and vegetables when it did things it was trained to do: put both front paws on her stick, give her handler a high five, etc. The handlers told the kids about porcupines and answered questions. After Aurora got back into her crate, the handlers played a game with the kids to explain how animals are trained. One handler took a volunteer out of earshot, and the group decided what actions the volunteer would have to do to get applause. The volunteers eventually realized what they would be rewarded for. One kid was supposed to sit down, another was supposed to twirl around.

    In a couple of weeks, a red-tailed hawk will visit, then an African pygmy hedgehog, then a Screech owl.

    1. Clarissa*

      Wonderful! You are lucky. Do you watch the zoo programs on The Animal Channel on Saturday evenings? They’re very good.

  228. Lady Arwen*

    Help! Any new thoughts on hybrid functional-chronological resumes for people making major career pivots? I’ve worked as a reporter/editor for the last five years, but worked in the business side of TV/film media for the five years prior to that. I’m now moving back to the business side, but all recruiters and hiring managers see on my resume is “5 years, 4 jobs as a reporter. She’s a reporter” and they never, ever really synthesize all the great project management/people management/financial roles I’ve had in the first half of my career. I’ve had more than one recruiter suggest I write a functional resume instead, but this site has me convinced that’s the kiss of death.

    Any thoughts on if a hybrid version that clearly states my objective is to move back to business, still includes my chronology clearly marked, and then goes into functional skills is more okay nowadays / for someone doing a major pivot?

    1. Product Person*

      What I would testis listing the jobs in chronological order but with Relevant Experience followed by Other Experience with the reporter/editor jobs on the latter, mos recent to oldest jobs in both cases.

      Yes, the Relevant Experience will be 5 years old, but at least you’ll have the most attractive accomplishments on top, and after reading them if someone wonders what you were doing more recently, they’ll find it next. Lots of people find jobs in business 5 or 10 years after being a stay home parent, so why not someone who didn’t even stop working and only tried a different career for a while.

  229. Door Guy*

    Our President/CFO has started to really crack down on procedural errors. I fully support this and for the most part my team complies as it is part of their job to use and follow our procedures (obviously). Unfortunately, the one who needs this the most is also the one who is NOT doing it and the one who started the President/CFO on this crack down – my sales manager. He’s an older gentleman, a very well connected and solid salesman, but everything on the back end is a wreck – no documentation, incomplete file folders, poor or no communication, and always directs/pushes blame onto others, on top of being a total slob.

    That alone is an issue, but the greater issue comes from the fact that our VP who we work with directly (Pres is in a different office 2 hours away) has covered and helped to mitigate the mistakes that have been made out of the sales manager’s office. He does this in the belief that the good (he has gotten us big accounts at places we’ve never gotten into before) outweighs the bad AND that all the bad are things that can be addressed and fixed. He’s not wrong, but how long do you let it go?

    In about 2 months, said VP is retiring and I alone will be filling his managerial duties at our office. Sales manager and I have some issues between us, I will admit, but are not the point of this post beyond that I have no reason to want to cover for this guy once VP is gone as he’s done nothing to prove to me (his new boss) that he should be kept around and everything to antagonize and ignore me.

    2 days ago, I came back from lunch to find the VP in the middle of an angry/upset call with our foreman. We had a big job for a big client that went sideways. Not only that, but it was our FIRST job for this big client and we’d been trying to get their business for years. First, one of the 2 products we installed had a manufacturer/factory defect and exploded. (That is the actual term for what happened, but not in an actual explosion, which funnily enough we do have an explosion-proof operator for actual explosions). Luckily no one was hurt as it happened when the place was empty, and the manufacturer is supplying free replacement parts.

    The other one, though, was all on us. We were supposed to duplicate what they had already. We sent foreman and sales manager out to get specs and measurements. Foreman went up in the lift with the tape measure and sales manager wrote down the numbers he called out. Somehow, one of those numbers was supposed to be 272, and got written as 227. VP orders the product off the measure sheet and we go to install. Find out now that although the door itself works, because that measurement was so off, it now blocks part of the fire suppression system when open, which is a big NO. We got hold of the manufacturer to find out how much it would cost to rectify, and it’s over $4500. VP is very justifiably pissed, and has said that if we do have to by that track, one or both (foreman and sales manager) will lose their job as he won’t be able to cover that up. VP told me that he would talk to President about this.

    I have been feeling like I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place. Both are very much my boss, both are owners of the company, and President just the day before this went down informed me he wants an immediate report when we have any issues especially of this nature, and Vice President wants me to say nothing and let him deal with it, but with him leaving in 2 months, he won’t have to deal with President any longer and has the capital to ignore the President, I don’t and will have to work with President after he’s gone.

    Now yesterday, sales manager comes into my office to say that he doesn’t know why VP is blaming him, since it’s all VP’s fault as he ordered the door and should have known that the measurements didn’t seem right. I was too stunned for words, and sales manager went out to his truck and left to meet a client immediately after dropping that bomb. I haven’t seen him since (I had my own duties that took me out of the office shortly after that yesterday). I also haven’t said anything to the VP about it yet (he was out of the office when I tried to call him). VP knows that sales manager will blame anyone and everyone regardless (just that morning before everything blew up sales manager had blamed me for him getting reamed out by a customer and losing a sale, because he claimed I had told him a list of mistake/cancelled job doors for resale was accurate. It was accurate – 4 months ago – and all were informed that if you sell one off the list you need to cross it off. He sold one, didn’t cross it off, forgot about it, and tried to sell it again.)

    1. cmcinnyc*

      Penultimate paragraph has your answer: “…with [VP] leaving in 2 months, he won’t have to deal with President any longer and has the capital to ignore the President, I don’t and will have to work with President after he’s gone.” You’re on the bullshit-go-round with these two (VP and sales manager) but VP is getting off and you have no plans to continue covering for sales manager’s sloppy, expensive mistakes. You know exactly what to do; it’s just extremely uncomfortable doing it. And it may be uncomfortable for 2 months. It sounds like you could all be out of a job, however, if this mess goes on. So there really is no comfortable way through this one. If it’s going to suck it might as well suck on your terms.

      1. Door Guy*

        My job isn’t on the line for this one (at least not directly) as I was 100% not involved in this project at all. I haven’t told President yet, because on our staff meeting, VP mentioned that he had something to bring up for our next weeks meeting, that he was still working through before he reported it, so initial step has been done and ball is in VP’s court.

        Speaking with VP this morning, I did mention what the sales manager said about it being all his fault and he took it about how I expected.

        We MIGHT be able to get out of this without incurring any more costs (besides labor) as we were able to get the factory defect door running correctly, and VP sent the manufacturer a proposal that instead of new parts for their mistake, issue us a credit to pay for the other door that was our mistake as the prices were similar. Haven’t heard back yet.

    2. CM*

      If the question is, “Should I go around the VP and tell the President what happened or wait to see what the VP does?” I would wait to see what the VP does. He’s already said that he has to report this (can’t cover it up) and indicated to the sales manager that he thinks the sales manager is to blame. There’s no reason to think that he won’t tell the President.

      In two months, if you want to fire the sales manager, it sounds like you can. I don’t think there’s anything to gain by trying to force the issue now. I would just make sure the VP knows your position on it and wait to see what happens.

      1. Door Guy*

        Honestly, I don’t think I’ll have to fire the sales manager in 2 months, as our President has had him on his sh*t list since before I started, and I can see him dropping the hammer on him hard.

  230. Mimmy*

    Personal Statements for graduate school!

    I’m applying for a Masters degree and need to do a Personal Statement. I’ve done two of these already (for a previous Masters and a graduate certificate–yeah, I’m a little nuts lol), yet I’m at a loss on how to even get started. The instructions are vague – I think it just asks you to describe your motivation for pursuing this degree. Can anyone recommend some good resources for writing these?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Hm, I don’t know of any resources other than Google.
      But when I was applying for my master’s I just wrote from the heart. It was easy because I was a 40 year old graduate student who had spent something like 15 years getting my undergrad degree. So it was easy to speak about valuing lifelong learning and perseverance and how all of the jobs I’d had led me to this point.

      I think they really want to know why you want this, but depending on how competitive the major is there might be some other factors.

  231. SoManyQuestions*

    Hi all! First time poster here, but an avid AAM reader. Can I get some tips on how to deal when important people(TM) all have a different opinion on doing things.

    Background: I’m two months into my new job and will probably be getting my first project to manage this Monday (it’s for a new and potentially important client).

    All fine and dandy …

    I’m not sure whether my CEO, my mentor and my boss are on the same page as to who will be managing the project and what exactly the project should entail.

    Example 1: my mentor decided I was to lead this project and he would assist me as my right hand. Great! Yet a couple of days later he and the CEO got into a discussion on who is the project manager. The CEO was under the impression that my mentor will be doing the managing – not me. My mentor disagreed. A bit of ping-ponging ensued. And that was it. No resolution. No official decision.

    Example 2: the CEO wants us to focus on one particular task for this project. Think drawing llamas. My mentor, however, is advocating for llama research and says drawing llamas is unnecessary. While by drawing llamas we would be able to understand the client better, llama research should definitely take priority since we are operating on a limited budget and deadlines. If we only deliver the llama research and not llama drawings, there could be a) a pushback from our CEO, b) we might miss some data relevant to our llama research.

    So, uh, what did you do in similar situations? Any advice would be appreciated. Like really, really appreciated.

    Maybe relevant: this is my first FT job, junior position, though I have some relevant experience from my previous PT job, we are a small office (less than 50 people), casual atmosphere, my boss is nice, but can be absent(-minded). Was also conveniately on vacation, when the discussion between my mentor and our CEO took place, but will be back in the office on Monday.

    1. Beatrice*

      You’re in an impossible situation. It might help you to know that. It’s hard to be successful when the people who define your success don’t agree.

      If you’re leading this project – what do you think the right approach is? I get that you can see it from everyone’s viewpoint, but if you had to pick one, what would you choose? What’s the impact to you, if you choose one viewpoint over the other?

      I was in your shoes a couple of years ago. I was working on a huge project, and at multiple points, my boss, my mentor (whose good opinion carried huge weight for my career), and the boss whose budget my salary was coming from all disagreed on an approach. I got stuck in the middle of a screaming match at one point. They were all the same level – if there had been a ranking difference, I would have considered that. It’s hard to ignore the CEO. Talking to them about it and calling out the problem helped. I did a lot of tightrope walking. If I had a strong opinion, I advocated for it. There were times when I told them to talk among themselves and make a decision and leave me out of it. But when push came to shove, I often followed my boss’s approach, because he was the one who wrote my reviews.

    2. CM*

      Hm. Whose idea was it to do the project?

      I agree that it’s basically impossible to do the right thing here if you’ve got two people with completely different visions for the project, and, if you’re only two months in, it might also be hard to judge the dynamic between those people and decide which one you should side with when they disagree.

      I would take a cautious approach. Try to make sure you have a record of who asks you to do what — like, if your mentor comes back and says, “Great, start doing the llama research idea,” try to get that in an email. Just in case it turns out he’s in a fight with the CEO and somebody’s mad at you later for not doing the drawings.

      It’s also normal to feel kind of nervous and insecure about this, if those feelings come up. They’re placing you in a position where you’re waiting for the project to blow up at any minute, because you know there’s fundamental (and unresolved) disagreement about what it should be.

    3. PX*

      This is super common in my experience so the best thing to do (for me at least) is to explicitly call it out! You can have a meeting specifically on it, or do it via email – but for your own success (and peace of mind) – have it sorted before the project starts.

      I would send an email out as below and then proceed as desired. Or if your office is more meeting focused, have a short ‘ShinyNewProject: Prep’ meeting and start it with this:

      “Just to clarify and make sure we are all on the same page, for ShinyNewProject:
      – the goal is to ensure the llamas are well documented. we will do this by first researching the llamas for x weeks, and then if possible, drawing the llamas.
      – if time permits, the llama drawings will be used to iterate the research

      SoManyQuestions will be taking lead on this, supported by mentor when required.

      If you have any questions or changes you would like to make to what is proposed, please let me know and we can schedule a call/meeting.”

      But really, starting a project without a clear aim on deliverables is asking for failure right off the bat, so if you’re managers arent doing this, do it for them (and participate in the fine art of managing up!)

      1. Blue Horizon*

        Yeah, that’s how the experienced PMs I know would approach it.

        If they refuse to participate/agree and also refuse to take the necessary steps to reach agreement (it can happen if your workplace is dysfunctional, very political etc.) then put ‘lack of agreement on project deliverables’ in your risk register and start red-flagging it in your status reports.

  232. jelliedbeans*

    I recently left my job for a great new opportunity that I’m really excited about. I definitely didn’t have any room to grow in the old position, but I loved my coworkers and had a great manager. We were all extremely close–not in an inappropriate way, but closer than most coworkers are. I want to write a letter to my former manager (we exchanged addresses before my last day) to let her know how thankful I am for the time I spent working with her, because her mentorship and leadership style truly changed my life. As long as I don’t get too sappy, is this okay to do? I think she would appreciate it, but I don’t want to do anything awkward!

    1. Budgie*

      I don’t think it would be inappropriate at all, and she would probably enjoy receiving it and seeing how she made that positive impact on your life. You never know what the future holds. It’s good to keep those relationships and connections open.

    2. Jessa1*

      Yes please do, managers frequently second guess themselves and usually hear most frequently from squeaky wheels, and usually second hand.

  233. Mimmy*

    Just got an InMail from a LinkedIn recruiter with a job opportunity that doesn’t even remotely fit with my qualifications – clearly she did not read my profile. Is this a common practice? Should I reply back?

    1. fhqwhgads*

      Lots of bad recruiters just spam blast everyone. It is a common (but not good) practice and you’re under no obligation to reply back. If your inclination to reply back is to tell them they’re doing it wrong, I wouldn’t bother. If they’re taking a Throw Spaghetti at the Wall approach they know they’re reaching people that are not remotely applicable and don’t care.

      1. job hunter*

        The problem is that if you ignore too many of these obnoxious overly-broad messages, LinkedIn assumes you’re ignoring recruiters because you’re no longer job-hunting. Happened to me this week.
        It’s better to click the ‘not interested’ button and not say anything than to totally ignore it.

  234. Rexish*

    Oh fudge. I just got a rejection letter from an interesting job. No problem, it happens. Saw another opportunity so started to send my CV. Noticed that I had frogotten to delete one phraise from the profile where I express my desire to relocate. This was an old plan, current one is to stay here. Dammit.

    1. valentine*

      Reading backwards (plus expanding, then collapsing to reduce scrolling) would be confusing.

      Would you want moderated posts to go to the top instead of appearing with their time-posted cohort?

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