open thread – December 13-14, 2019

by Alison Green on December 13, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Jabs*

    I’d love to hear from other (highly distractible) people about how they’ve learned to focus better at work.

    Constant communication (my team uses Slack, Asana, and Google docs) means there may be some sort of ping at any time, and working in the browser means its oh-so-easy to check-my-email-real-quick (or, you know, Ask a Manager!) when my brain wanders from my current task.

    Because of the type of work I do I can’t work away from my desk. Combine that with a semi-open office (low cubicles) where coworkers can just wave their arms at me to get my attention and its a minefield.

    I won’t blame my coworkers for my own bad habits and brain, but any tips and tricks would be much appreciated. I hate feeling like I’m not living up to my potential as an employee because its so difficult for me to get started/get into any sort of flow state some days, unless a deadline is basically on top of me.

    1. CTT*

      If it’s possible for you, turning off all those notification sounds might help. They are so distracting to me (even when I’m in someone else’s office so it’s not like it’s my computer pinging). I still keep the visual notification up, but without the sound it’s less distracting; it’s just the one thing competing for my attention rather than two.

      1. Joie*

        I do this! and I set times to check things. Every hour or so I take a few minutes to run through my notifications and make sure I’m not missing anything priority. If it’s an actual fire someone will interrupt you in person not just wait and hope you see a message.

        Also headphones. I put one in and listen to background music and I find that helps drown out other people and signals that I’m busy so is this really important?

        1. Anita Brayke*

          Yes! I do the one-headphone trick! Sometimes two if my coworkers are particularly loud. I don’t get a lot of emails and we don’t have an IM program, so that isn’t an issue, but I do have a particularly loud, sing-songy, overdramatic coworker who makes a lot of noise in the general practice of doing basic things, and headphones are a godsend!

        2. MissDisplaced*

          Yes! Either set times to check things (8am, 12pm, 4pm) OR block off time on your calendar like it’s a meeting (9am-11am ABC Proposal) and then treat it just like a meeting. I personally prefer scheduling deep work like a meeting because others see it on your calendar and tend to think it IS a meeting LOL. Try starting with maybe just one thing per day and see if it helps your productivity.

      2. Bostonian*

        Cosigned. I’ve found that if I just turn off the pop-up email notification that gives you a preview of the email, I’m less inclined to be distracted by new messages. It’s a small tweak that makes a big difference.

        I also completely log out of our internal messaging system for the day if I’m working on an urgent deadline: that way I don’t get random messages from people asking non-urgent things, they just send an email instead.

      3. Gatomon*

        I’ve had to do this as well. No sounds or desktop notifications from email and turned Teams notifications down to just direct messages popping up onscreen. Otherwise it’s impossible to get anything done for all the noise flying past. If something is dire, call my desk phone or come swing by! I could spend all day just responding to the various distractions.

      4. The Beagle has Landed*

        This is a great suggestion! I do the same, and create a special rule in Outlook that I am alerted only to emails from my boss so that I can have a higher level of responsiveness to his needs (I am his Exec Assistant). Then I check emails 3-4 times a day and deal with them on my time.

      5. A Person*

        For me I also had to turn off the little red “new message” circle Slack would pop up. I still get an icon update for direct messages, but it was really bad when that happened every time there was a new message in a channel.

        Also I use Asana for a personal to do list so whenever I get distracted I have something I can go back to that and it tells me what I should be doing that day (or reminds me what I was already working on).

      6. Kuddel Daddeldu*

        I have recently started to schedule time to “go to the mailbox” when I need to do the less loved (but still important) parts of my job. I close Outlook and set myself as “busy” on IM. If someone needs something really urgently, they’ll call (how archaic!), come by my office, or IM me anyway.
        I will then take conscious breaks – move my desk to standing height, check mail and either reply or mark them for later, get a fresh cup of tea and get back into data analysis, report writing or whatever.
        Otherwise, I’d either procrastinate until the cows come home and/or have several things fall through the cracks.
        Most of my fun work is out of the office, traveling, but the office work is necessary as well. But today I had my annual performance evaluation – next year I’ll hire a junior consultant to be my assistant, yay!

    2. Less Bread More Taxes*

      Honestly, mute all that stuff. I was at a job with constant pings a few years ago. I couldn’t get anything done, so everything got muted. It wasn’t a toxic environment, so if I missed something in the chats, someone found a way to tell me. Some people are multitaskers and some aren’t, and good employers know that.

    3. Turtlewings*

      Having an hourly checklist/to-do list helps keep me on track. Not just daily, HOURLY. I have certain things I do every hour and then fill in whatever else needs to get done this hour. If I get distracted it’s easier to “find my place” again when I can just refer to the list, starting at the top and going to the bottom. Self-imposed structure.

      1. Hey Karma, Over Here*

        Came here to say this. I keep a written list of all my tasks. Jabs, you will notice an infinite improvement on your ability to slip back into your flow if you have a list that lets you know where you left off instead of having to look at your screen, your pile of papers, your whatever to figure out what the hell you were doing. It’s how I manage my distractability.

        1. Jabs*

          Thank you, this is great advice, I have recently switched to paper to handle my todo lists for this reason and I have found it helps a lot! A digital todo list has always felt like too much noise (not to mention all the extra features and color coding that just makes it harder to see at a glance what you need).

          Unfortunately I am a pretty aggressive doodler and a blank page can be hard to resist; I’m trying to come up with a not-too-distracting system where I reward myself with a little doodle instead of a check mark when I finish a task … I realize this makes it seem like I am half my age :\

          REPLY

          1. JJ*

            I’m a doodler, too, and I’ve found that using an interesting shape like a triangle or a pentagon as a bullet next to each item helps me. When I finish the task, I color the shape in with a different colored pen. It helps me stay on track and scratches the itch to doodle. I manage marketing communications, so I’ll write down a topic and then use different symbols to denote which outlets it needs to be communicated on (square for marketing email, circle for social media, etc.). Filling in all of the shapes for a topic is always extra satisfying.

          2. Hey Karma, Over Here*

            I’m pretty sure I’m twice your age. I have 24 packs of ink pens, sharpies, sharpie flairs and highlighters. I have RED highlighters. I color code each task if I have to, I’m worth it!

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I find headphones and music on repeat works well for me. It closes down my environment to a single focus (and literally tethers me to the computer).

      My son listens to video game soundtracks, which are specifically designed to aid focus, and don’t have lyrics etc to distract. I listen to ukulele music, because I love it and usually need a happiness infusion when there’s a need for a focus crunch.

      1. Jabs*

        You know it never really occurred to me that video game scores were designed to aid in focus (without being too distracting) but now that you say it that might actually work! I sometimes listen to cello music (when Im not doing work that involves listening to audio, which I sometimes am) but after a while it begins to put me to sleep, and most movie scores are a little too narrative. Ill try this! Thank you!

        1. Jabs*

          This is great advice, I have recently switched to paper to handle my todo lists for this reason and I have found it helps a lot! A digital todo list has always felt like too much noise (not to mention all the extra features and color coding that just makes it harder to see at a glance what you need).

          Unfortunately I am a pretty aggressive doodler and a blank page can be hard to resist; I’m trying to come up with a not-too-distracting system where I reward myself with a little doodle instead of a check mark when I finish a task … I realize this makes it seem like I am half my age :\

        2. Kiwiii*

          I do piano instrumentals most of the time, sometimes with some sort of rain filter through noisli over it, but if i’m on project that requires lots of writing, the Frostpunk soundtrack is infinitely helpful tbh

        3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          I took the video game tip a while ago and it’s astonishing how effective it is. Good luck!

        4. Marie*

          I listen to Sims 2 Build Mode music when I need to focus! My brain was trained in my youth to expect hours of focus in front a computer to that score…

        5. Kuddel Daddeldu*

          This! I’m not a gamer by any means, but the original soundtrack by Daniel Ran to “Beyond Skyrim: Bruma” is eerily beautiful and not distracting. Available on various streaming sites and even on Amazon. This is part of my go-to playlist for work or long flights. Together with good noise-cancelling headphones (I like Bose) this helps a lot to keep me focused.

      2. Jackalope*

        Seconding the music. I normally listen to instrumental only when at work (I can make exceptions for things with voices humming or singing Ahhhh and such as long as it isn’t talking in a language I know). It really helps with drowning out distractions.

        1. Jabs*

          I know what you meant by “singing Ahhhh” but I read it as screaming the first time and I choked on my coffee.

      3. bunniferous*

        I had never even thought about video game soundtracks!!!!!! I also fight distractions especially since I work mostly out of my home office when not out in the field or at the actual workplace -this one suggestion is going to make a huge difference -besides, I had no idea till I actually just investigated just how great the music was to start with!!!

      1. Jabs*

        Thank you, I have yes! The hardest part for me is keeping those 3-5 minute breaks down and getting back to work, but its definitely helpful, especially when I have really big stuff to tackle.

        1. Diana*

          I recommend buying the app Tadam. Yes, it tracks your 25 minute windows, but more importantly, it floods your screen with a big “take a break!” banner for five minutes. It literally blocks you from doing anything and forces you to get up and get a glass or water or do a lap around the office or something. Using those 5 minutes to check email does NOT count as a break for your brain and only drives you toward greater distraction and inability to focus. Also, if the idea of having your screen blocked out for five minutes makes you extremely nervous, that’s probably a sign that you need that feature most of all!

        2. Sloan Kittering*

          Yes, people often suggest pomodoro to me but for my specific issue, it doesn’t work. I don’t have trouble starting things – I have trouble persisting in things after they start to get tricky / I get interrupted constantly by my coworkers.

    6. Phillip*

      I need a low-level distraction to help me get going, and once I get going I can usually stay there for a pretty long time regardless of high-level distractions. So if I just sit down and try to dive right into work, I get distracted really easily. If I put something like a podcast on first, somehow that really trivial bit of multitasking scratches that itch instead and I can stay focused. Task-switching is brutal for productivity, its not a fault of your brain.

      1. Jabs*

        Thank you, this is really interesting! Kind of… distracting yourself into working? I may have to try something like this.

    7. Seifer*

      Seconding the recommendation for video game soundtracks. Same thing for movie scores. Strangely for me, listening to an old podcast that I’ve listened to about ten times over now really helps. I think my brain registers the people talking and doesn’t allow me to hear people around me talking. I used to also listen to ‘Let’s Play’s when I was in college and needed to focus.

      I also give myself deadlines. I’m not terribly distractable (ignore the fact that I’m on AAM during work hours hahahaha) but if I don’t have a clear, okay this needs to get done before lunch, I tend to procrastinate because like. I got time. I make a to-do list that I run by my boss once or twice a week and he’ll either be like yeah that works or actually can you shift this around, and then the knowledge that my boss knows is enough for me to be like. Oh shit there’s pressure.

      1. Jabs*

        Thanks for your ideas; I do the listen-to-the-same-thing to go to sleep with Jane Austen’s novels and I could probably recite them by now XD.

        I am a big procrastinator also, I think my procrastination and distractibility come from similar places.

        I go over deadlines and todos with my boss at least weekly; unfortunately my team is understaffed and so missing deadlines has basically become the norm – the pressure is constant which means it might as well not exist. Part of my desire to learn to drill down and focus better is to be able to tell the difference between “I missed this deadline even though I worked my hardest because we have too much work” and “I missed this deadline because I couldnt focus today” so I can plan accordingly. When my manager asks me how long something will take I am terrible at coming up with a realistic estimate, and so often end up having to stay late or get an adjusted timeline.

        1. Gatomon*

          Something that’s helped me is doing timeblocking in my calendar. I have some repeated blocks for things I need to do regularly (I have a daily one for just getting organized) and then I fill in time for my work around those and meetings. It’s helped me get a better idea of how long something will actually take, and shuffling stuff around forces me to prioritize and push myself to just get a task done. It also has shown me how much time is lost to firefighting daily.

        2. Glitsy Gus*

          I feel you on this one. I am SO BAD at estimating how long something will take. I really just can’t seem to wrap my brain around how to do it. At this point I take the number in my head and double it, because that way most of the time if it’s done sooner that’s bonus but if it ends up that I was way too optimistic (which I usually am) I have a bit of a time cushion.

      1. Bananatiel*

        I second this! I used to think I was a decent multi-tasker but after having read and implemented some of the ideas in both Deep Work and his newest, Digital Minimalism, I’ve realized that I’m actually terrible at it and it’s not a personality flaw, either.

        That having been said, I’ve still been struggling with the browser and it’s many distractions (lol, as you can tell, since I’m here). I decided it was worthwhile to pay for an app called Freedom which works across all my devices. I have exemptions set up for the apps I need to work, but *everything* else gets blocked for whatever amount of time I choose. It was another Cal recommendation but outside of some of the basics like time blocking that has been the biggest help for me.

        My biggest remaining struggle has been dealing with actual in-person distractions and our office layout is TERRIBLE for this. I’m in the process of moving and when I have my dedicated home office set up again I will be proposing regular work-from-home days because it’s an option for me and about the only thing that can fix the in-person distractions that I’ve found. Headphones mean nothing in our office culture and that’s been a point of frustration for me.

        1. Windchime*

          Yeah, I love working with my noise-cancelling headphones in combination with either white noise or a movie soundtrack playing. But in my office, putting on headphones is like raising a banner that says, “Come and talk to me!” People will stand and try to get my attention, I’ll finally remove my headphones and they’ll have some trivial, non-work thing to say. Super annoying.

      2. Jabs*

        Thank you! I’ve had this book downloaded for a while but havent gotten around to it because… well, distractible. This is a good push to try and look into it (maybe over the holiday, when I’ll have a little more room to breathe!)

    9. LilySparrow*

      For me, it’s not so much the momentary ping itself, as the lure of wandering off checking other sites and not returning to task.

      I’ve had good results with a combination of incentives and reminders.

      I’ll make a timesheet or even a simple spreadsheet divided in increments (6 minutes if you’re used to reporting time in tenths, maybe 15 minutes if not). Whenever I finish a set of tasks, or realize that I’ve wandered off, I record how long I was on task and how long I wasn’t.

      Then I get a little reward for accumulating a certain number of “stars,” like a kids behavior chart. Maybe I go make a cup of tea, or put on my favorite playlist.

      I mean, the whole point of those charts in school is to support kids learning to self-regulate. It works on grownups, too.

      I’ve also used an app (can’t recall the name right now) that sets off a chime at random time intervals, asking “are you on task?”

      If your problem is too many interruptions, that might not help you. But if your problem is getting derailed, then being interrupted from doing the *wrong* thing can be useful.

      2. Glitsy Gus*

        I do something similar, I downloaded a basic egg timer app and every 15 minutes it pops up a message that just says “What are you working on?” It’s helpful because if I drifted it kind of reminds me to get back to something productive, but it also helps me stop and think about what I am doing and how long I’ve been doing it, since I also have a tendency to get in a groove and spend way more time on one task in a day when I really needed to spend a little time on several things.

    10. Emmie*

      I started setting aside time to monotask. I began with 30 minutes most days of the week where I focus exclusively on one project. I worked at giving no attention to distractions like emails, IM, and coworkers. I even told my team that I will be in monotasking mode for 30 minutes. It’s something that has gradually caught on with other team members. I do my best to add monotasking times to my daily routine whenever possible. It’s hard because I manage people, and projects. I’ve learned that focusing is a muscle you build up over time. We’ve become so accustomed to giving attention to multiple things – checking our cell phones, answering a question to a coworker who walks in our office and emailing all while in a conference call. We need to practice changing that habit at least sometimes. Others have good suggestions too. I found that a defined monotasking period helps me limit the time I need to be super-disciplined, and was more practical for me to implement. Good luck!

    12. Zahra*

      Look at all the tips for people with ADHD! It’s something we live with everyday and such a common symptom that there are tons of tips online on how to manage distractibility and hyperfocus.

      1. epi*

        This is awesome advice. I do not have ADHD but went through a period with anxiety so bad, I honestly wondered if I did. (My sibling has it.)

        A lot of the concentration and organization tips for people with ADHD could really work for anyone, and there is a huge variety out there. I found their tip lists a lot more helpful than having to buy into a complete system.

    13. EJane*

      Muted notifications, headphones, and a sign for my desk that basically says “please email me any concerns or questions. I am on a deadline” help me.

    14. Lyudie*

      I struggle with this too. I’m currently using Todoist on my phone for making to-do lists, it’s nice because you can organize tasks into projects. I think it integrates with Outlook as well but I’ve never tried that. Grindstone is also a good app, it’s available for PC as well as mobile and is a time tracking application.

      1. The Pirate Bee*

        Todoist’s Outlook integration is great! My favorite feature is that you can create a task directly from an email, and then when you click on the task in the future, the email in question will pop right up. That plus the natural language scheduling (e.g., repeat every third Monday starting December 8th) is what’s kept me loyal to the program for so long.

    15. Anon-Today*

      I’ve tried a few things, with some success. First, I listen to airplane noise as white noise through my headphones. Having taken many long flights, I find it quite soothing, and if I turn it up it even seems to block the sound of people talking near me.

      Another is that I have two Chrome set-ups. One is strictly for work and one is just for personal stuff. The home page for the work one is our office’s page, and the bookmarks are all the places I could need to go in order to do my job. Any ads that show up will be work-related, vs. right now I’m being distracted by cute clothes on sale over there –>

      Like others, I have turned off notifications. My boss will send urgent emails (which I think is inappropriate) and if I don’t reply fast enough she’ll send her secretary over to tell me to check my email (which I think is also inappropriate – what about the phone?). But most of my other emails aren’t urgent, so it’s okay to work on them … and when I do, I make sure all other programs and apps are closed and my desk is clear. I have made mistakes in email because of my mind being full of random stuff distracting me even without ding dong notifications, so I try to answer my boss’s emails only when I feel I truly have my mind only on whatever she wants from me.

      Finally, I’m trying to reduce visual clutter. I have always had cluttered offices & desks, which ramps up the anxiety, but since I’m so messy by nature I have never felt totally comfortable without some clutter. My latest idea is to use a plain black background for my computer screen and have almost no shortcuts visible. I was really surprised how much difference that made first thing in the morning. I didn’t feel like “Oh lawdy, I can’t face this day…”

    16. epi*

      I recommend trying out lots of things until you develop a system that works for you. I can tell you a few things that have helped me lately that you might want to try or adapt for yourself.

      Forest: this is an app for your phone that you can use as a work/anti-distraction timer. Select an amount of time to be off your phone, and a little tree will grow while you do other things. The tree will die if you leave the app, or if you voluntarily give up. I’ve been really surprised how much more engaged I feel in a task I was avoiding or couldn’t concentrate on, just by promising myself I would focus on it for 10 minutes. I find it less tempting to cheat than with the Pomodoro method; I resent using my five minute break to just go to the bathroom.
      This month all the trees are holiday themed so even making a forest with just the starter tree is very rewarding. If you pay for the app, you can whitelist apps that are not true distractions or that you may need. This won’t keep you off your desktop browser unless you find it motivating. However, there are browser extensions you can try out like Leechblock.

      Read-only day: I stole this idea from my husband’s company, which doesn’t commit changes to their software on Friday afternoons. I do Monday mornings. For the first hour or two of the day, I don’t produce anything. I reorient myself to what I was working on, pull all my notes and to-do lists from the previous week into one clean master list in order of priority, and generally do anything I can to get myself set up for the week. Sometimes I also use this time to make a detailed plan of attack for a big task I’ve been avoiding, so I don’t feel like I’m going into it blind. Or I do any reading I need to do for the week.

      Research/work diary: This is what I’m filling out during read-only time. It’s a running Google Doc (but you could use anything) of notes, ideas, and what the *point* was of whatever I was doing. If I find myself really distracted from or blocked on a particular task, I turn to the work diary and just free write about why for a few minutes. Almost always works when I have the discipline to use it!

      Separate browsers: I open my work email and work internet in a regular Firefox window, personal stuff in a private one. The private one gets totally minimized while I’m growing a tree. Every few days, I willingly close the private window, blowing away all the non-work stuff I told myself I was going to read but never did.

    17. The Pirate Bee*

      As far as web browsing, one thing that helps me is a self-imposed rule on what browser I use for what task. My work tasks all take place in Chrome, but if I want to check my email or this blog or whatever, I make myself open up Firefox. The extra step is an opportunity for me to consider whether I really want to take a break or if it’s just boredom/reflex.

    18. Peep Ops*

      Our office is the same way and it can be so unproductive to switch constantly. Here’s some techniques I’ve used:

      I’m in HR so I set up office hours on Fridays on the company calendar with the understanding from people that I take non-emergency questions/meetings on those days
      I send a ping to my immediate team that I’ll be offline for X time if I really need to hunker down and then I turn off notifications for slack, turn off sound, and use a white noise machine in my space
      I chunk out time first thing in the am and again right after lunch to check emails and reply

    19. gut*

      Are those distractions part of your job? In that, is it part of your job to respond to immediate needs that those distractions are indicating?

      I ask this because I had to deal with a similar thing in my previous position and I was flatly told that the distractions *are* the job and other tasks are not a priority compared to handling the distractions.

      At my current position, the distractions are not work related but there are people constantly shouting and laughing very loudly in the office. Since they are not work related, I wear headphones all day and blast the white noise. I’m starting to lose my hearing, but I can’t really do anything else about it for now.

  2. Peaches*

    Had my company’s Christmas party at a “barcade” (bar/arcade) last night. My more-than-tipsy coworker saw a photo of my 30 lb poodle mix and proceeded to go on and on about how she was “the biggest poodle she has ever seen”, and how she “couldn’t get over how huge she was”. Then, she proceeded to show me a picture of her poodle, who I’d estimate was about 80 lbs. Alcohol does weird things, man. Lol.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      Bahaha. I showed a photo of my 85 lbs pit mix to my dept head, and I have never seen such a melty look in his eyes before. I’m weighing how useful it might be to tell said dept head that my dog is a therapy dog and maybe he could make the rounds during high stress days…aka spend all day in dept head’s office.

        1. MechanicalPencil*

          Technically if I brought my dog to work under the auspices of him working as a therapy dog, I would have to stay with him the whole time he was working to ensure he was treated well and was acting within the rules of therapy dogging. If I brought my dog in as a dog (which would be the only way he’d come to the office and chill with my dept head), it could be a free for all, so to speak. My dog knows the difference of his outings based on what he’s wearing and acts accordingly, so I just have to train the people.

          1. TooTiredToThink*

            “My dog knows the difference of his outings based on what he’s wearing and acts accordingly, so I just have to train the people.”

            That is AWESOME. And something I didn’t realize was part of training. I assumed they were always “on”.

            1. MechanicalPencil*

              Honestly, I didn’t actively try to train my dog to know the difference, but he gets more excited when his therapy dog harness comes out. I suppose he knows he gets to go get extra pets and attention rather than the usual walk and maaaybe some pets from neighbors when his regular walking harness comes out. They’re essentially the same harness, just different colors, and one has the velcro “therapy dog” tabs on it. Well. That’s not true. He has to get a bath before we go therapy dogging anywhere too. I didn’t think of that until just now. He hates the bath, loves the kids and seniors. He’s so gentle with them, which is super sweet to see, particularly since he’s sometimes a bull in a china closet at home.

              Tl;dr: It could be the pre-therapy dog bath; it could be the separate harness. The dog is smart, but maybe not THAT smart.

              1. EJane*

                I have a service dog, and he 100% knows what’s expected of him when he’s in vest and when he’s not. I have taken his vest off at work before and released him, and his body language COMPLETELY changes. Normally when he’s working, if someone talks to him, he looks to me. If someone is saying hi to him (with my permission) he waits until I release him before acknowledging them.

                When his vest is off, he’ll run around my office (small, informal company, and this only happens after hours) and greet people by shoving his head under their arm or leaning against them until they give him butt scratches.

                1. cold tea*

                  Yep. A friend has a service dog. When wearing the vest, he is working, he is well behaved, etc. The second that vest comes off, he’s got paws on stranger’s shoulders and is trying to lick them to death. Completely different personality with/without vest.

                2. MechanicalPencil*

                  Interesting. I’ve noticed when I take his working harness off he changes, but that’s been maybe a handful of instances, but I chalked that up to who he was around, and honestly, he almost instantly started napping (or “napping”). We’re fairly new to working as a therapy team, so we’re still learning a few things — or I am. I know my dog as the derp he is at home, not a quasi serious working dog. I should give him more respect.

                3. Marthooh*

                  Dear Alison:

                  I’m a mental health provider and I take my job seriously, maintaining a professional demeanor at all times at work. But I’m also outgoing and friendly, and when work is done, I will sometimes jump up and lick people’s faces or demand butt scratches from strangers. Some of my clients seem to think this behavior is problematic. Is it? Should I be sent to the doghouse?

                  — Waggin’ for the Weekend

  3. I Heart JavaScript*

    Hi everyone! I’ve been a regular reader and occasional commenter here since 2013 and I wanted to share some experiences I’ve had as a career changer who went through a programming bootcamp.

    This topic has come up a few times in this space with a lot of opinions about whether they work or are worth the time and expense, so I wanted to share my two cents, as someone who’s gone through one successfully.

    My background: before becoming a software engineer, I was an Executive Assistant in the Private Equity space. I worked my way up from the Reception desk all the way to supporting a Partner / Group Head. I had a stable, well-paying career and wasn’t the kind of person you typically hear going through these things. I wasn’t in my 20s nor was I underemployed. I was considered a rock star at my firm and had my pick of opportunities, up to and including learning associate-level, rather than admin, work.

    Why, then, did I go to a bootcamp? Well, I’ve always liked learning and loved puzzles. I like seeing tangled problems and finding elegant solutions; I like making order from chaos; I like learning new skills and tools. I got some of that in my work as an EA, but so much of my work felt more like babysitting grown men than actually solving tough problems.

    After spending months learning to code for fun, I actually started to pursue coding as a potential career. I quit my job, attended a well-regarded program in my city, and looked for a job. Altogether, I was out of work for 5.5 months: 3 months for my program, 1 month for vacation, 3 weeks for job searching, and 3 more weeks between accepting an offer and starting the job. I’ll be the first to admit that these results are not typical: I was the 2nd person in my group of 40 to find a full time position.

    I’ve now been working in the industry for 2 years and I’ve had a lot of success. I work at a nationally-known internet company and was offered a team leader position this summer, ahead of coworkers with literal decades more experience than I have.

    So, what are the things that have made me successful? They’re the things that made me an excellent EA. I’m detail-oriented and methodical. I’m good at figuring out the answer to things on my own without needing someone to hold my hand. I’m a clear communicator with both technical and non-technical staff. I can break a large, complex problem down into a step by step plan. I can prioritize tasks that align with product priorities.

    For those of you thinking about going through a coding bootcamp, consider these things:

    1. Not all bootcamps are created equal. Some are scams and many more are just terrible. Do your research, not just on outcomes, but on instruction quality and rigor.
    2. Not all job markets are created equal. Some places are much easier to get a job with no professional development experience than others. If you’re in a tough market, go in prepared.
    3. Raw technical ability matters less than interviewing skills and your network. There’s a minimum threshold, obviously, but the measurable differences in who gets jobs first aren’t usually who’s better at coding.
    4. Lots of different types of people do these programs. We had career changers, computer science grads, startup founders, and college students in my class. It’s easy to be intimidated by someone with a STEM background when you don’t have one, but they weren’t always (or even often) the best in the class or the first to get jobs.
    5. Knowing people in the industry (and in your job market) before you attend makes it much easier to get your first job. If you’re considering moving for a job search or a bootcamp, make sure you spend time to develop your network by going to conferences, meet ups, study groups. etc. because those are the people who’ll help you get your foot in the door.
    6. Do you even like it? A lot of people are attracted to coding because it’s a well-paid career with a lot of flexibility. It can be a real slog, though, if you don’t love it. Spending hours or days hunting down a bug because a coworker made a mistake is frustrating enough when you enjoy the rest of your job. If you’re just in it for a paycheck, you’ll make yourself miserable. If tracking it down sounds like fun, though, then you’re in the right place.

    1. irene adler*

      Thank you for this!
      I’ve been toying with the notion of programming. I took a number of community college courses (Python, HTML, PHP, etc. ) along with things pertaining to my work (Quality assurance topics). Every time I loved the programming courses the best (didn’t much care for the QA stuff-sigh!). Like you said, solving puzzles…there’s something soooo attractive in doing that.

      Good to see you are fairing quite well doing this.

      Would the cost of the bootcamp be an indicator of it’s “quality & rigor”? I’ve seen some that cost $10K.

      1. I Heart JavaScript*

        Most of the actual good ones cost closer to $20k than $10. Providing quality instruction costs a lot of money, as good instructors can make excellent money in the industry as programmers themselves. Also, there’s a lot of facilities and infrastructure costs.

        As far as evaluating quality and rigor, talking to successful bootcamp grads in your area is probably the best bet. What’s available from region to region varies widely, but we tend to be pretty plugged into our local areas. Also, after graduating, finding jobs, and spending time in the industry, we tend to know if the money was worth it or if others who went elsewhere had an easier/harder time.

        1. gut*

          $20K! For $25K, I got a master’s degree (at my state school – not an online degree).

          But to your point, I learned to code later in life too. I wish I’d done it earlier. I love it and I picked it up quickly for many of the same reasons you listed. The exception is that I’m profoundly NOT detail oriented, but I can hold logical systems in my head easily, which helps. Also, with modern IDEs and autocompletion, the detail orientation and detail memory is not as important because you have some form of assistance (as with many other aspects of programming and other types of work – you choose tools based on your strengths and weaknesses. many of my coworkers who are more detail oriented find the autocompletion annoying lol).

      2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

        I think the solving puzzles aspect gets overlooked a lot when people discuss if someone would be a good coder/would enjoy coding. It’s not a 1-1 match to point 6, but it can be a good proxy when you’re just starting out.

        (I will note that I like a clearly defined bug – if I know what’s wrong, that means I can fix it! But if all I know is that something isn’t right, that’s a much harder problem.)

      3. J.B.*

        I would consider looking at bootcamps offered by universities if there are any in your area. At least you can ask questions about alumni network. Not that campus career centers are great, but you may be able to participate in tech career fairs. People have also recommended Meetup groups.

        1. I Heart JavaScript*

          J.B. I would actually advise against this. The university bootcamps aren’t actually run by the universities, they’re run by a group called Trinity and they market under the university’s extension program. They’re legitimately terrible. A friend did U.C. Berkeley’s and it was so awful he’s given up on engineering jobs altogether after spending moneys and a lot of money on it.

          2. J.B.*

            Huh, that is not what I expected at all! It is good to know that. A bootcamp near us closed and the university’s is there, but if they are that ick then no way.

            1. I Heart JavaScript*

              I know! It’s completely predatory and I’m honestly angry at the universities for allowing their names to be used like that.

      4. I Heart JavaScript*

        Take a look at the Council on Integrity in Results Reporting — they’re the most ethical and rigorous measure of bootcamp outcomes on the internet. Not every bootcamp is on there (and if they’re not, run far, far away), but the ones who are have their outcomes data audited for accuracy and have to abide by strict standards for what certain statistics mean.

        Outcomes data isn’t the end all be all for determining quality, but it’s a good place to start.

        1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

          One other note on CIRR – for some results, you don’t want the bootcamp you’re looking at to have a 100% score. The one that immediately comes to mind is graduation rate – a bootcamp that’s got a 100% graduation rate is most likely either not rigorous enough in their coursework, or passing people who weren’t doing passing work.

          (Source: Discussions with the directors of a bootcamp we’ve hired developers from.)

          1. I Heart JavaScript*

            This 100%. Getting the stats is only the first step — knowing what to look for is something else. If you’re looking at CIRR stats, at least, you can (sort of) trust they haven’t been so horribly manipulated that you can’t recognize them. Like with anything of this magnitude and lack of regulation, go in skeptical.

    2. Sleepy*

      Thanks for this! I’ve been toying with this for a while so it’s great to hear this perspective.

      Do you have any thoughts on whether it makes a difference if it’s a man or a woman doing the bootcamp?

      1. I heart JavaScript*

        My class was about 25% women and the first 3 people to get jobs were all women, so take of that what you will!

        I found that we tended to be more highly motivated and more mature in our careers, which helped us in the job search. As women, we’re also socialized to jump into things only when we feel like we’re ready, so we tended to over-prepare, compared to some of the male students.

        That said, my program was very careful to shut down any sexist BS that might arise. One guy in my class got tossed for an inappropriate project and a few others got some serious discussions about professionalism to keep them on the straight and narrow.

      1. I Heart JavaScript*

        My first salary was $100k after the bootcamp, which was slightly below median for my class (I took the first offer I got because I was paranoid about getting anything and getting stuck in the job hunt for months). Total compensation (including things like bonuses and benefits) was actually lower than my final EA job, but the quality of life changes were definitely better.

        I’m in the SF Bay Area, for what it’s worth on salary info.

    4. Persephone Mulberry*

      Oh, man. If I had this info a year ago, my career might be on a completely different path (our backgrounds are quite similar, and my reasons for getting away from admin/EA work are the same!). As it is, I love my new job, but I’m definitely going to keep this in my back pocket. Or maybe steer my college-age kid toward it…

    5. Anon type of question*

      This is really helpful information for people. Thanks for sharing it. I think your soft skills and prior experience provide a leg up, for sure.

      I don’t want to be pushy about salary information, but if you don’t mind answering, was your first job a step back or a move up in salary? If the first, have you gotten to where you were before over the past couple years? This has been a jump I’ve considered in the past, but not so much that I’d want to go back to my salary from 15 years ago, which is what a bootcamp program admissions person had told me to expect for my region. However, I am in a slow growth phase of my career now, so it could be possible to catch up quickly.

      1. I Heart JavaScript*

        I’m still not income ROI positive. Nearly 6 months loss of salary as an EA, plus the cost of bootcamp, worked out to about $70k. My first job’s salary wasn’t bad, but was still slightly less than what I made as an EA, so I only started working myself out of that “hole” about a year ago. That said, I had the money and the quality of life benefits were pretty significant, so I’m overall very happy with my choice.

        The one thing I miss about being an EA in finance: the occasional $1000 gift cards to places like Saks Fifth Avenue. It wasn’t worth it, but every so often I remember the perks fondly.

          1. I Heart JavaScript*

            Oh, it’s definitely not worth it (at least for me). The money was good, but it was completely soul crushing.

            It’s a hard job without any recognition (you only get recognized as an EA if you screw up, if you’re doing your job right, you’re basically invisible), a lot of unreasonable requests, and outcomes you’re responsible for but have no control over. It can be so hard not to let it get to you or not to take it all personally. My executives loved me and were some of my biggest cheerleaders and best references during the switch, so I know they didn’t intend to make me miserable, but it was still really hard not to get bitter and jaded.

      2. Anon type of question*

        Thanks for sharing! That’s about what I expected. Your salary noted above is more like $50k in my midwest city, and that’s close to the projections I was told. I wanted to respond here to flag that to those reading this. You hear a lot of hype about people making six figures straight out of college (or bootcamp). That’s not in all regions. Be sure to know your area or areas you would move to before diving in.

        1. gut*

          Yeah I’m from the midwest as well and most people I know in tech (myself included) (and tech to mean anything from analytics to actual development or something in between) started at about 50K out of college and moved up to 100K with 3-6 years of experience (especially if they have an MS as well but not needed).

    7. The Ginger Ginger*

      How did you decide what language to go to bootcamp for? Did you look into the job market in your area? Find what interested you?

      1. I Heart JavaScript*

        I picked the bootcamp in my area with the best outcomes data, the most rigorous program, and the highest opinion from other grads. The language I learned was incidental (to me) compared to the quality of instruction.

        I was lucky that I was already plugged into that community, which made the research on which programs were best pretty easy.

      2. Eng*

        I didn’t attend a bootcamp but I am an engineer involved in hiring. Language doesn’t matter. Learning the basics of one language is is a tiny portion of what a software engineer needs to know. At the entry level, all the skills you need should be transferrable between any modern object oriented language

    8. matcha123*

      Thanks for the info. I’d love to do a bootcamp, but I have terrible math skills and I don’t have even $1k for a course, let alone $20k.
      I have been trying to do some self-study and use coursera and edx. I’d love to gt better and move on to a better job.

      1. I Heart JavaScript*

        The math stuff is actually a lot more overblown than most people think. If you can do basic algebra, you can do enough math for a front end development job.

        As for the money, most bootcamps offer something called Skills Fund, which is like and education loan for the bootcamp. It’s not a federally subsidized loan, but I have friends who used it and were pretty happy.

        Also, some bootcamps offer a pay-once-you-get-a-job model where you delay payment until graduation and your first job, then you pay them the first 20% of your salary the next year. Details obviously vary by program and read the fine print super carefully.

        There are usually options for people who want to make it happen, even if you can’t afford it to start. There’s also at least one part time program I know that’s highly reputable, for people who can’t afford to take 6 months off of work.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Scrolled down to see if anyone else had asked this question when I saw your post. It is out of the question for me, then. I can’t do algebra at all (severe dyscalculia).

          I can do HTML, which isn’t math-y (it’s just tags) but obviously this isn’t something I should waste time and money on. Thank you for sharing the info!

          1. I Heart JavaScript*

            If you’re good with HTML and CSS, look at Software Design jobs. Having a designer who knows how to style things in web languages (not just how to design them in Adobe) is worth their weight in gold.

            With purely HTML/CSS, you’ll occasionally need to look at calculating or messing with margins, but there are lots of built-in tools in browsers like Chrome and Firefox to do that stuff for you.

            1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

              I actually wouldn’t recommend this for someone with dyscalculia. While the HTML is, as Elizabeth West mentioned, just tags (if you’re doing it right), the CSS involves a lot of sizing and positioning. Whether you’re looking at absolute or relative values, it’s all math. (Honestly, most of the math I use as a developer is when they have me updating CSS.)

          2. we're basically gods*

            Honestly, I’ve found back-end stuff to be less math-y. I am terrible at math– they wouldn’t diagnose me with dyscalculia, because I scored too high on other stuff on the test, and instead of thinking I was compensating for poor number skills with other intelligence, they assumed I was just freaking myself out. I did a boot camp because I knew going in to college I wanted to be a developer, but after failing calculus *five times* I knew I had to go in a different direction.
            I do…nothing with math in my current job. Nothing at all. I would say that you may still be fine, even with the math issues! (I struggled in math my entire life. Always hated it. The first time someone told me I should look into programming was in high school, talking with a math genius in my class about how much I enjoyed writing proofs in geometry, which was something my classmates despised. He suggested that programming was very much like writing proofs, and I would be inclined to agree!)

            1. I Heart JavaScript*

              That’s a good point — if you can do basic math concepts and like logical proofs, but not the numbers, many developer jobs are totally on the table.

              Also, databases are basically all systems thinking and relationship mapping. So working with building reports and managing reporting pipelines has a lot less math to it than what I do every day.

                1. I Heart JavaScript*

                  Logical proofs are basically “if this, then that” statements. You start with basic assumptions, then build up to a conclusion with those set of logic statements. That’s it, really.

            2. gut*

              Yup same. I didn’t struggle with math, but I never enjoyed it either. The logic involved in programming is more akin to proofs IMO than actual math. I don’t use math at all and my official title is “data scientist”. LOL

          3. Windchime*

            I took a programming certification course around 20 years ago at a community college. The only math I had to do was a little algebra, and then some math in a data structures class that honestly most people didn’t attempt (and they still passed the course). My day to day job now is doing report development for the finance department of a hospital, so that does include math but I have coworkers who report on clinical data and I think that their math is zero.

            Most of my work is done in SQL and there is basically no math in that.

      2. I Heart JavaScript*

        Check out Free Code Camp online — they have some excellent courses on front end and general web development topics.

      3. Process Geek*

        Community colleges in my area have some pretty decent beginning coding classes. You can also find an open source project to get more real-world experience which you can cite in a job hunt.

        Check your public library, too. In Minnesota, everyone with a public library card has full free access to Lynda.com (now LinkedIn Learning) from any browser. You need to know how to log in to your library system’s website, but the librarians are very happy to help.

      4. ArtK*

        Unless you’re implementing numerical algorithms, heavy-duty math isn’t necessary. I think that’s a carry-over from the very early days. Most business applications only need arithmetic or possibly a touch of very basic algebra — stuff you likely do every day without realizing that it’s algebra. My BS is a cross between mathematics and computer science and I can promise you that I’ve barely touched anything on the math side in a very long career. For a lot of programming, the CS isn’t necessary either.

        2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

          The only time I needed calculus as a developer was when I was writing motion profile software for a mechanical engineer. I got that job because I have half an ME degree, and my boss needed someone who understood what the client was talking about. And even so, I ran all the math past the client before I implemented any of it.

    9. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Thank you for posting! I am very much a puzzle person, too, which is why my current position has evolved to encompass a lot of QA and Business Analyst activities. I’m pretty happy where I am and with my projected career glide path, but this sounds like something I might try, especially if I wind up (involuntarily) job-searching. It would probably be better both financially and as a fit for me than a PMP, which I was also considering. I should probably even look at evening or online alternatives that I can do while I keep my current job.

      1. I Heart JavaScript*

        For part time, online options, take a look at Hack Reactor. They have a well-regarded, online, part time program. I know several people who’ve gone through and successfully found jobs.

        Doing this thing part time and remote makes it harder — it’s easier to get distracted / not finish and it’s harder to gauge your local job market. Also a lot of the remote / part time options aren’t as rigorous as some of the in person ones, so definitely do your research before putting any money down.

    10. emmelemm*

      Thank you for sharing this! It’s both heartening and intimidating at the same time. :)

      I’ve considered doing a coding bootcamp. I am currently a software designer, actually, but I work in a pretty obsolete language and have been maintaining a code base for a long time, so my skills are seriously atrophied. Because I have basic coding knowledge, I’m pretty confident I could get a lot out of a coding bootcamp, technical wise.

      However, my primary issue to moving on is that I *don’t* have a network, I’ve been at the same place for a long time, I’m not going to have great references, etc. I was kind of hoping that a bootcamp would be a huge boost in those areas. Guess I’m going to have lean into “networking” a lot harder.

      1. I Heart JavaScript*

        Bootcamps can help a bit with the networking, but everyone in your program will be looking for jobs at the same time you are and most aren’t great at connecting alumni with recent grads.

        Where bootcamp networks are great is for jobs #2 and beyond. Your classmates (along with former coworkers) become your best source of referrals.

        For networking pre-bootcamp (or as a recent grad), I tend to recommend going to meetups, conferences, study sessions, and hackathons. Getting to know people in your industry in your local area makes it so much easier to get a referral or warm intro to a company as a new grad.

    11. These Old Wings*

      My husband also did a development boot camp and changed careers from Corporate Comms to web developer. He loves the perk of working entirely from home, although honestly he took a significant pay cut and while he has been given raises (including when he technically wasn’t eligible for one), he’s still making much less than he was in his previous career. Because it’s a well-paying career, he will probably eventually move back into his previous salary range, but still something to consider!

    12. Diahann Carroll*

      This was inspiring to read as another career changer (though not as a coder, but in a tech-adjacent industry). Congrats on your success!

      1. I Heart JavaScript*

        Thank you! I’ve wanted to post this for awhile, since people will ask about them in the comments from time to time. I just don’t typically get a chance to join on Fridays until it’s too late for anyone to see!

    13. ArtK*

      This looks like a very good list. I’m on the other side — I’ve been doing enterprise software development for 35+ years (and worked in IT or “data processing” for many years before that.) All of the items are good, but #6 is very important. Software is a field that requires a very unique mindset and it’s certainly not for everyone. Enjoying puzzles is a good marker for this. Wondering why and how things work is another one. During a recent job interview I was asked what the most important quality of a good software engineer was. My answer: curiosity.

      1. I Heart JavaScript*

        When I’m asked that, I usually give a short list:

        1. Curiosity
        2. Autonomy / self-motivation
        3. Pattern matching
        4. Thoroughness / attention to detail / methodical approach

    14. we're basically gods*

      Number 6 is SO important. There were a lot of people in my coding bootcamp who didn’t seem to enjoy it even a little bit.
      I’d also add– do you think like a programmer? Do you enjoy logic puzzles? Do you enjoy changing one little thing, seeing if it works, rinse and repeat? Is your approach to problem solving to type your problem into google and see what you can see?
      There’s no shame in not thinking that way, but don’t try to get into coding because it seems like it pays well if you hate it and find it unintuitive, you’ll just be miserable.

    15. Introvert Who Likes Puzzles :-)*

      Thank you so much for the post. I am intrigued and your suggestions are true gems! I wonder: Do you feel like the job is truly flexible? (Or will you be “bossed” around a lot, having to make many changes of directions, and having to work long hours when not planned all the time?) I like the puzzle-solving aspect you’ve described, but is majority of the work more repetitive and possibly boring stuff? Thanks!

      1. I Heart JavaScript*

        It really depends on your job, company, and interests!

        So, obviously, not all jobs or companies are flexible. The more valuable of an employee you are, the more flexibility you tend to have. Job markets where it’s tough to hire developers tend to allow for more flexibility. More senior developers tend to have more flexibility than junior ones. Personally, I have a lot of flexibility. I can decide when I want to work from home without any issues. I can decide when I want vacation and it gets approved. I had to fly to another continent earlier this year for a family emergency and I gave my manager 2 hours noticed — I got no pushback, only support. I work as little as 30 hours a week when things are slow and no more than 45 hours a week when things are busy. The same applies to job responsibilities — my manager wants to keep me happy, so he does his best to staff me on things that I’ll enjoy.

        As far as interesting, engaging work, that often lies in the eye of the beholder. I like dev ops / dev tools (basically infrastructure and solving problems for other developers) better than I like building a new front end page. HTML and CSS are not my jam. But there are plenty of others who like those parts of the job and are good at them! The key is having a mix at any company, so you can focus on the parts of the job you like best.

        Not all companies are created equal in terms of interesting projects either. Some companies are only maintaining legacy systems and aren’t building new things or investigating new technologies or tools. Those jobs tend to be more rote or repetitive. That said, being on the cutting edge has its drawbacks, also — technologies are less stable, there are fewer resources available to help you solve your problems.

        One of the best things about this business is how acceptable it is to jump around. People expect that software engineers will jump ship every 2-5 years because companies typically can’t keep changing their technology stacks that quickly, so it’s how we learn. This means that it’s harder to get a reputation as a job hopper, so each offer you take is less of a risk. Try something out and don’t like it? That’s ok, find something else and move on.

    16. Alex*

      Thanks! This is an idea I’ve toyed with myself. Do you have any idea about the experience of getting a regular degree or certificate in programming from a college vs. doing the bootcamp? Do employers prefer the bootcamp grads?

  4. Doug Judy*

    Anyone have any recommendations for an online SQL course? I know basics, and our corporate trainer resigned, so my company is looking to outsource the training instead of doing it in-house.

    1. DC*

      I completed one through General Assembly, and really liked it. It was very hands on and I felt made it easy to retain the material.

    3. Zahra*

      Depending on the people needing the training, you might not need a full-blown course. With people that are comfortable with Excel, you can translate a lot of functions to SQL pretty easily (string manipulation, date/time functions, lookups that are the equivalent of joins, etc.). For data extraction/analysis, you can do pretty powerful stuff with about 10-15 keywords (string functions and date/time functions count each as one).

    4. ArtK*

      If you have a major vendor for your database, as in Oracle, IBM, Microsoft, they will have training available. Whether it’s affordable is another question entirely. Some will be online and some will be in-person.

      The reason I mention the vendor is that although SQL is supposedly standardized, every vendor has their own take on it and getting training on the specific product you’re using may be more useful. Aside: I served on the committee that maintained the SQL standards for quite some time, so the multiple variations are somewhat frustrating.

      1. Zahra*

        Multiple variations can be frustrating, but that’s why I keep bookmarks for the SQL functions for each of the vendors I’ve used in the past. I’ve been working contract in a bunch of companies, so I’ve used MySQL, MS SQL, BigQuery, Amazon Athena, PostgreSQL, Oracle…

        While learning the specific product you’re using is definitely the best thing to do, the variations aren’t that bad when your work is just extracting data. Going from LEFT/RIGHT to LEFT/RIGHT/MID to SUBSTR is really a minor thing compared to learning how joins and subqueries work.

  5. MOAS*

    I was the bathroom talker this week.

    If I’m on the phone at work, it’s usually to make a Dr appt or personal business stuff. but I usually try to avoid being on the phone too much.

    So….I got a phone call that was personal in nature and I was scrambling to find privacy. I was flustered, running around like a hen.

    I landed in a bathroom stall. 

    I was on hold for the most part, because the person on teh line kept putting me on hold. so I wasn’t talking too much.

    Someone entered the stall next to me, and….flushed.. 4 times. FOUR TIMES in 1-2 minutes. so whenever I was taken off hold and I could speak, the toilet in the next stall would flush. 

    I finally just rushed out. Luckily I was done with my call. 

    This won’t happen again, so no action plan for “next time”, just wanted to , just wanted to share a slightly silly story from “the other side.” 

    1. cat socks*

      Ugh, that’s frustrating! I wish buildings had “phone booths” to take personal calls. Sometimes I’ll duck into a conference room but that’s not always an option.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        Agreed. I hate having to speak with the doctor at work and usually end up hiding in a bathroom stall as well because there aren’t any good spots (unfortunately, I had to have several phone calls with my OB this past summer after suffering multiple miscarriages – so, obviously a super sensitive subject). There are only three women in my office, so it’s usually a safe spot, but I’m always super anxious about someone walking in! One time someone did walk in, and in a panic I hung up mid conversation and had to call my doctor’s office back and tell them the call had dropped.

      2. pancakes*

        Some do, especially law firms. WeWork had phone booths, too, but reportedly built them with elevated levels of formaldehyde, such that people who went in to make calls would come out with headaches and runny eyes.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              It’s a shame, since the concept of shared workspaces is awesome. They just have no idea how to run a company.

      3. Nessun*

        We have phone booths! We also have conference rooms…and it’s a pet peeve of mine that people use the conference rooms when the booths are almost always free. I can’t have a meeting in a phone booth, but they take calls in a meeting room. Sheesh people, choose more wisely.

        2. Lyudie*

          We have two of those per floor in my building. I take one on ones and stuff like that in there so I can not annoy my coworkers/have a private conversation without taking up a whole room.

      4. I See Real People*

        Like the ones on the TV series Mad Men…they had three or four phone booths between the elevator and their office. Those would be helpful today!

      5. ThatGirl*

        We have 4 dedicated “phone rooms” on each floor, which are bookable if you have like, a conference call to be on by yourself. I wish more offices had them.

      6. OtterB*

        My office is renovating completely to a semi-open plan (low cubicles). I’m not wild about it but see the necessity (square footage is not going to change but staff is increasing). One of the things the new plan does right is have a couple of small phone rooms. It’s mainly because of the need for conference calls, but will also be useful for this kind of thing.

        1. WellRed*

          Why can’t they have normal height cubicles? That wouldn’t take more space and would give the illusion of some privacy.

          1. AnotherAlison*

            At our new place, the open floor plan “cubicles” are about half the size of the normal wall cubicles at our old office. Shoving someone in a space that small with no wall is probably worse than having no privacy. (Although I think my first cube at first-job was about 3×6, and I liked it.)

            Our new open office also has phone booths. Only they’re called something else.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          Yeah, we had those at Exjob too but you weren’t supposed to use them for personal calls. You had to book them if you wanted to have a conference call. They were pretty strict about it.

      7. Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.*

        Mine does – and breakout conference rooms, but every so often there is literally no room at the inn. It can be a real scramble to find a private space!

      8. The Beagle has Landed*

        I rush outside to take calls, or into the parking structure. Almost got run over today…

    2. stitchinthyme*

      My guess is that the flusher was annoyed by your use of the bathroom stall as a phone booth, and flushed on purpose. (I will confess to having that impulse myself when I hear someone on the phone in the bathroom, but I confine myself to the usual single flush when I’m done.)

      Sucks that some offices don’t have anyplace to make a private call, though, so I get it.

      1. Elizabeth*

        Yeah, I mean – isn’t it a violation of their privacy to have you in the next stall broadcasting the sounds of their bathroom activities to the person on the other end of your phone call? Unless you are calling 911, please don’t do that!

        And I do totally get stepping into the bathroom in a flustered rush when answering a private call, but maybe next time stand in the main area of the bathroom, and if someone comes in, then you can exit immediately, and let the person on the other end know you need to put them on hold for a minute while you find an alternate private space.

        1. MOAS*

          I did htat. and stood outside. and tried to find the stairwell but that was broken. like I said… chicken without its head. lol .

      2. MCL*

        Maybe! Or maybe they just needed to flush a lot. Not to get too graphic, but sometimes flushing has to happen a few times during a bathroom visit.

    3. 1234*

      I’m wondering if the person next to you purposely flushed 4 times or you have those automatic toilets that flush by themselves.

      1. MOAS*

        No, these are manual flushes. I’m not upset anymore, but it was a..uh… super highly emotional period and now that it’s over I can look back and chuckle.

    4. Reba*

      Oh man, one time I was on hold with an airline for over two hours…and this was like the third time I called so I didn’t want to give up. I really needed to go and finally broke down and ran to the bathroom.

      OF COURSE the moment I’m on the toilet is when the line picks up. People were flushing around me, I was so uncomfortable because I was literally peeing while speaking! I just said “sorry, this is an awkward moment” and got the call done. UGH.

      1. Jdc*

        If I’m going to be put on hold for hours i have zero shame in using the bathroom. They signed on for that when they under staffed causing such long hold times.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Oh no, lol.
      At Exjob, a lot of people would go into the stairwell. If I was doing stair climbs at the time, I tried to ignore them, but as the stairs weren’t exactly private in any case, they just had to deal with it. Most people who had intensely personal calls to make went to their cars, but that’s not always doable for everyone.

  6. Non-Plushed Duck*

    I’ve been with my organization for over 5 years. I’m well-known throughout the company and have always received positive reviews, etc. I applied for a position in another department about 3 months ago. The position would be a total career change, but I had the support of my current boss and was brought in for an interview. Over the past few months, I tried not to bother my colleagues and HR, as I didn’t want to take advantage / abuse the fact that I worked in the organization. About a month ago while working with HR on a project (unrelated to the potential job), I was told I was still in contention. I thanked the rep for the update, but given that we were discussing activities related to my current job, it felt inappropriate to discuss the other job, so I didn’t push for details. Fast forward to this week when I received an email, a form letter, notifying me that I wasn’t selected for the job. Please know, I am not upset I didn’t get the job. I knew there were skills that I would have to learn on the job and that they could very likely want someone with more direct experience. I am pretty irritated though that they sent me a form letter to my work email to tell me I didn’t get it. Is it too much to ask that they give me a quick call to let me know before sending the official word? 

    1. Colette*

      Some people prefer calls, others prefer email, so I don’t think the email is out of line. It would be a better practice to offer to have a conversation with you, or to give you a more personal explanation, though.

      1. Non-Plushed Duck*

        Sure, I would be fine with a personal email too. But, it was 100% a form letter automatically filled in/pushed out by the system. It recommended I visit the company’s website where they have FAQs on applying for jobs.

        I just feel, as an employee in good standing, that good HR practice would be to contact internal applicants directly, even if it’s just to say sorry you didn’t get it.

          1. Charlotte Collins*

            My last company used to do that. And it was super annoying when they’d claim you didn’t have the skills you needed for the job, when you demonstrably did. (By the time I left, what it really meant was: “You’ve been here 10 or more years, and we’re really tired of paying for long-term benefits packages. Please leave.”

            I keep running into former co-workers who are now former employees of the company. They all seem so much happier…

    2. londonedit*

      I agree that it’s a shame they couldn’t take the time to give you a more personal response – they should have done that, as you were an internal candidate.

      But speaking in broader terms, this is one of those things that people have differing opinions about – some people would say they’d never want to be called with bad news about a job application, because it puts them on the back foot and they have to do the whole awkward ‘Oh! Oh, right, well, thank you for letting me know…’ thing while trying their best not to sound too disappointed. It’s also true that many people’s hopes would soar when they heard ‘We’re calling about the job you applied for…’ and then be instantly crushed when they heard ‘…I’m sorry to say you’ve been unsuccessful’. Those people (I’m one of them!) much prefer to receive bad news like this by email, so they can digest it in their own time and come to terms with it and formulate a reasonable response if necessary.

      1. Non-Plushed Duck*

        Totally understand… I would be fine with an email, but a personal email. This was a standard email send to applicants and very clearly for those who don’t work for the company.

    3. Doug Judy*

      I was turned down in person for an internal position. It was super awkward and uncomfortable. I would have preferred an email so I could process first with the opportunity discuss (after a few days) what I would need to do in the future.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I had that experience as well, and it wasn’t great, especially since I knew the only reason I didn’t get the job was because my current manager tanked me with the new one prior to my interview (she smugly told me so after the interview).

    4. Non-Plushed Duck*

      Just adding a note. My issue is with the form letter. If they had sent me a personal email that would have been fine too. Phone call, email, smoke signals. All would have been fine, if such forms of communication actually acknowledged I am an employee.

    5. broken hearted internal candidate*

      I was turned down for an internal position by my boss. I had told him that if I didn’t get the position I wanted to know in person, as I knew I would be very frustrated by a form letter. My boss, who is great, set up the conversation so I was 99.9% sure our meeting that day would be the rejection. There are other aspects of the situation that are upsetting to me, but I keep holding on to the kindness and respect my boss showed me that day.

      The worst part is many people knew I had applied, and when they ask me how I’m doing, I either break into tears or almost break into tears.

    6. These Old Wings*

      I totally agree with you that a call, or at minimum a more personalized email, should have been the way you were told. I went to an interview over the summer for a company I had previously spent 5 years working for. I left on good terms (we moved for my husband’s job) and was still in touch with several former coworkers. I had been looking to get back into the workforce after taking a few years off with my kids, and when I saw that they were hiring for my exact previous position, I reached out to my previous supervisor, who encouraged me to send her my resume and brought me in. Long story short, not only did they not hire me back, but nobody could even be bothered to let me know at all that they went with another candidate. I still think that is so incredibly shitty and can’t fathom why companies do this. Everything worked out for me in the end and I have a great job with a very short commute, but I’m still bitter about my former agency!

  7. ch-ch-ch-Changes*

    Life and Work Change Questions

    I have some questions that I need to reflect on and wanted the advice of the smart people here.

    For background, I am a single woman, over 50 years old. I have decided that after working for others for my whole life, I am ready to make a big change next year – once I get thru the next 6 months of some work stuff and health stuff. I have had two main careers (software and non-profit, each career ten++ years long). With that:

    First, I am starting to erase (as best as one can haha) my social media presence: deleted twitter in October, deleting things each day off of facebook, and I will in May (once my job ends) delete my LinkedIn account, too. Trying to wrap up this phase of life so that I can move on to a less-connected-virtually and more-connected-reality-based life.

    I have a dream to buy a small cabin/place, make it eco friendly (solar, small windmill, mostly plastic free, maybe with chickens for eggs and a garden). I would like to open the place up, about a year after settling, into a BnB for single women travellers, women artists, etc and use it also as a place to teach in the community about environmental issues and integrate it as a social enterprise – using some profits to support causes like tree planting and conservation.

    My dream is very scary to me. Have any of you jumped off the corporate/business ship to start your own thing like this? Advice? Pitfalls? Things you wish you had known? If all else fails, I will have a place to use that is mine, and can survive and maybe just AirBnB it. But I want to make a calm oasis, and a safe place and have a slower life from here on out. Thoughts?

    1. I am gonna make it through this year*

      I have not done this myself, but I think your plan is gonna hit a road block if you really want to be “less-connected-virtually”. That kind of thing is gonna need an online presence and marketing, and if you’re starting off small, I assume you’ll be doing that yourself. The social media aspects would be different than your current, since it’s clearly a professional thing to sell a product, but you might have some lines blurring in targeting your audience specifically.

      2. ThatGirl*

        This is a great point – your scope would be extremely limited if you didn’t market and advertise online, and people generally expect some sort of online presence for small businesses these days.

      3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        I agree on the online presence thing.

        What you may want to do is rebuild your online presence (either with the same accounts, or new ones) that reflect your new persona. And, if you need to, set clear limits on when you interact … which would be part of your “brand.”

        1. ch-ch-ch-Changes*

          Thx – this is what I think I was trying to figure out, a new brand, presence. Not the old me. :)

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            Just set up a website for your business and possibly an Instagram account. You don’t have to post anything personal or even have your name in the handle/title, but you do need some kind of online presence when trying to launch a business (I wish it wasn’t true, but word-of-mouth marketing isn’t nearly as effective as I’d like it to be says the woman with a small, independent book publishing company).

            1. Filosofickle*

              Even when WOM works the online presence is still needed as a backstop. No one finds and hires me because of my site, but they do eventually check it out after they’re referred to me. Personally, I am wary if I’m referred to someone and they don’t have some basic online presence that says “I’m a real business”.

        2. LilySparrow*

          Oh, this point reminds me of another friend who bought and renovated a small apartment in a historical building overseas. She’s listed it as a rental property for when she’s not using it.

          She had the idea to blog about her process of renovation and life transition, in the hopes of creating a compelling story for potential visitors and getting people excited about the place.

          Unfortunately, she doesn’t have a good sense of where to draw the line on personal transparency vs marketing. So she posts about the drainage issues, the mold, the odors, the pests, and the frustration of opportunistic burglars stealing the tools and construction materials because she’s not there to oversee the work. She made it a struggle story, and her friends gave her lots of sympathy and encouragement.

          But now the “getaway” is finished and open, and she isn’t getting bookings. Because nobody wants to pay for an overseas vacation and stay in a damp, moldy, stinky, unsafe, rat-infested property.

          I mean, she’s solved those issues now, but her “marketing” is actively driving away customers.

          So as you build that online brand, be mindful and intentional about what people will see.

          2. ch-ch-ch-Changes*

            Aha, great story and good insight. Yeah – I don’t own a hammer at the moment, so anything I buy will not be a real serious fixer upper haha. But yes to marketing correctly. Good points.

            1. Anono-me*

              The comment about not having a hammer makes it sound like you’re not very handy. Please consider taking some classes maybe through Community Ed or even through some of the big home stores? Even if you find a turnkey property, you’re still going to have maintenance and upkeep issues. More people using the property means things are going to wear out and need fixing faster. And if something stops working, you’ll need to get it fixed quickly, since you have paying guests.

              Have you considered a tent camping retreat? If you had nice showers and a quiet pretty camping space; I would love to visit.

      4. Marny*

        This is a great point– you’ll definitely need an online presence for this type of business. And I think people tend to like to research places online before coming (especially single women) to make sure it’s legit and safe, so you may find that you’ll want a personal presence online as well as a business presence just so that people can learn about the person behind the property. However, starting your social media presence over from scratch with that idea in mind might be the best way to go moving forward.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          She doesn’t need the personal presence – in the About Us section on her business page, she can post a warm and inviting photo and write a couple fluffy paragraphs about herself.

          1. Marny*

            I can’t speak for other people, but even after seeing that About Us page, I’d absolutely google the person to see what else I could find out about her– especially if I were going to be staying on her property. There are too many instances of AirBnB fraud (where a property isn’t actually what it’s represented to be or owned by the person who advertises it) that I tend towards the more paranoid place when it comes to that stuff. Anyone can post a stock photo with fluffy info. I’d want more corroboration.

    2. Colette*

      That sounds lovely. I do have a few things for you to think about, though:
      – is it legal where you are to restrict a BnB to women? Or would you be open to everyone?
      – deleting LinkedIn may be a bad idea – if you’re starting what is essentially a business, you will want to let people know about it, so keeping your contacts is a good idea. You don’t have to go on it often, but I wouldn’t delete it.
      – $$ – have you done the math on your current level of savings, the amount it will cost to buy a place, the amount it will cost to upgrade it, and the amount it will cost to live after that?

      Good luck!

      1. ch-ch-ch-Changes*

        Ah, thanks. I think so, yes on. Creating a women’s retreat for rental to them, yes. Interesting point on LI, thx. And yes, am working on the finances now. :)

        1. Public Sector Manager*

          You should really talk to a lawyer about the restrictions on gender for your bed and breakfast. In California, public accommodations, including housing, have to be open to everyone. Put another way, there is a huge difference between catering to a certain clientele and excluding everyone but a certain clientele.

          But I really find the idea interesting! Best of luck to you!

          2. LilySparrow*

            When you narrow down your choice of property, check local/county ordinances as well.

            I just read this morning about a lawsuit in Florida where women are suing some “gentleman’s clubs” for restricting entry because the county has a human-rights ordinance that is more inclusive than the state nondiscrimination law. So the clubs’ “no unaccompanied women” policy is legal in the state, but illegal in the county, and the courts are hashing out which law prevails.

            1. ch-ch-ch-Changes*

              Good points. If I make it into a women’s art-retreat type place, with women’s circles and such, I will have to find out the legal aspects of this. Putting this on my check list now.

      2. Mockingjay*

        I would put together a comprehensive business plan,especially for the AirBnB. Look at everything: taxes, insurance (liability), infrastructure costs (guests expect hot water and high speed internet, even in the middle of the forest). Should you create an LLC for the business, which also separates and protects your personal assets? Check local zoning; short-term rentals are not permitted in many localities. Are you required to offer handicapped access? And so on.

        I hope you do attain your dream. Please research it first to see what’s viable for you. Examine the surrounding community where you plan to settle. Are there existing coops or environmental groups you can join or work for? That would provide income while giving you more privacy.

        Good luck.

        1. ch-ch-ch-Changes*

          More good items for the check list. On the handicapped access, I will definitely need to look into this. Where I live I am not sure exact requirements but do think new builds and renovations must include this in some manner. And yes on the internet and hot water.

          The more I think about it, I think a lot of what I want is a place that is not terribly connected and is more remote-ish but maybe I should save that for when I retire. :)

          I will look into the coops, too – good idea for networking. There are women’s entrepreneurial groups here, too, so that is helpful so far to me, too.

      3. Celeste*

        I know of a retreat center that is set up for rental to LGBTQ groups, so I think it would be okay. I’ve heard of others where alcohol is not allowed. I think the owner gets to decide what kind of business they want to have.

        That said, you have to factor in maintenance. You also need to look at liability insurance for anything that happens to people who stay there.

        There are innkeeper forums, and I think you would find a lot of information quickly in those. There are issues you would never think about, like controlling for bedbugs and incontinent adults, what limits to set for pet friendliness, how to be handicapped-accessible, tax reporting information, and so forth. I think you are very wise to do the legwork while you’re still employed. Best of luck to you!

        1. Celeste*

          Another reason you will want to have an online presence is so you can hook up with other locals in the hospitality sphere. You will want to let your guests know of local attractions, but you will also want the locals to recommend your venue to people, because word of mouth is powerful.

        2. ch-ch-ch-Changes*

          Thanks for this insight, too. Innkeeper forums are a good resource.

          Ack … bedbugs. Maybe this is not a good idea. :(

          Thanks for the luck wishes.

    3. Zephy*

      I don’t have any specific advice, but your plan sounds delightful! I wish you good luck with making it happen.

    4. A business librarian*

      If you are in the U.S., your local Small Business Center (SBC, or SB development center, or Small Business Technology and Development Center) will offer free or low-cost services and advisors. Also take a look at the Small Business Administration’s resources (sba.gov)!

      Search for SCORE (Service Corps of Retired Executives) mentors, Women’s Business Centers, and your local SBC: https://www.sba.gov/local-assistance. They’ll be able to provide guidance on legal stuff, planning, regulations, finances, and direct you to additional resources.

      Also consider checking with your local public library, or a public university library near you. A librarian can help you locate business information sources that you can use for planning. ReferenceUSA is a great one that many public libraries subscribe to (directory of businesses, essentially virtual yellow pages; locate competitors, potential customers, suppliers, etc), and there’s a lot more databases depending on what information you need. The Gale Virtual Reference Library has a Business Plans Handbook.

      Search the Directory of Associations to identify associations/organizations/chambers of commerce relevant to your industry & business: https://www.directoryofassociations.com/. There may be helpful industry information (trends, financial info, challenges the industry faces), other resources, and a member directory of businesses. (Look up the

      What I see with entrepreneurs is that their network matters. Who you are able to connect with could be super helpful! And the entrepreneurs I’ve talked with tend to want to help other entrepreneurs. There’s a whole wealth of folks and resources out there, and I hope you are able to take advantage of talking with them and learning!

      1. ch-ch-ch-Changes*

        Thanks for all the links this is great! There is a women’s entrepreneurial group that I have joined recently and am getting encouragement from them. I will take on the task of developing the biz plan over the next 6 months, too so your links are really helpful. Thanks so much!!!

    5. LilySparrow*

      It sounds lovely.

      I switched from 9-5 corporate work to freelancing in a different industry, and it took me about four years to find the right mix of business model, skills and client network to be able to reliably replace my income. It wasn’t zero, but it was a struggle. So I’d advise going into this with as little debt and as much cushion as you can.

      I have some friends who made a dream-job switch last year. She was in retail management and he was a program director in a youth-oriented nonprofit. They opened a coffee shop that also sells merchandise and books from local artists, and hosts BYOB live events in the evening (music, readings, poetry slams, etc).

      They have had an outpouring of support from the neighborhood, which was hungry for a space like this. They are active on social media, but also very deeply involved in the IRL community from their jobs and ordinary lives. They certainly appear to be thriving.

      So the takeaway for me would be to make sure you connect with the locals in your chosen area, and find a way to meet a felt need there, as well as serving distant travellers. This will both support your business long-term, as well as fulfill your desire to prioritize real-world connections over virtual ones.

      Also, if you intend to garden and don’t already, get a seed catalog and start this spring- even if it’s only containers. You want to make as many of your rookie mistakes as posdible on a small scale!

      Best of luck.

      1. ch-ch-ch-Changes*

        Thanks for your story and advice and the story of your friends, too. Connecting with a community is key – and that is part. of the scary side of this. In order to do this, I will have to move from my very high cost of living place to a more remote place that is cheaper. Which means establishing a new network etc. I guess this is part of why a fresh start off of social media was my thought – to start anew on all fronts.

        Good news on the seeds I do already have an indoor garden and hoard seeds. :) Been doing outdoor and indoor container gardening for years. And also on the debt – I have a little debt (less than $1,000) and do have the ability to support myself for a while. But your point is valid on replacement income taking time esp if needing to build a place up first, that will take a while to do.

      2. LilySparrow*

        Oh, one more thing – Im a fan of small-business “makeover” reality shows, and some of them might be helpful to you.

        “Stay Here” on Netflix is about people creating or making over Air BnB type properties, and I’m sure there are others that will get recommended as similar if you look it up.

        And on YouTube, there’s The Hotel Inspector, which covers everything from small BnBs with the owners living onsite, to pricier boutique hotels.

        One thing that’s often mentioned is cultivating connections with professional associations or package travel companies that are actively seeking venues to book for group sales. So that could be a useful element in your business model – providing a venue for existing retreats or conferences, rather than trying to plan / market the whole event.

        And that’s useful research you could do well in advance – identifying features that those groups want, which will help you choose a property and plan any needed renovations.

        And connecting with those communities/organizers to ask questions is a great way to start building relationships. When you approach someone with “I want to create a space for you – what would you like/need to have?” They are going to be predisposed to like you!

        1. ch-ch-ch-Changes*

          Ah, I did not know of these – this is good. Asking about the need in the community is key, for sure. A venue for retreats is a good angle to look into. Thanks!

    6. Al*

      Your dream sounds lovely. My parents retired a couple of years ago and bought a hobby farm, and they love it! The chickens lay enough eggs that they sell some to their neighbors, and their bee hives produced enough honey in the first harvest to sell some of it, as well. They also board a couple of horses. None of that is a full income, but they don’t need it to be (government pensions for one of them & 401k for the other).

      1. ch-ch-ch-Changes*

        Good luck to your folks, that sounds ideal. :) Though I don’t have enough for purchasing a ‘farm’ I would love to be able to have more animals.

    7. Bananatiel*

      Just recommended it upthread but it’s relevant here, too: check out Digital Minimalism by Cal Newport. I’ve heard him criticized before for taking an extreme approach to social media but it sounds like you might already be in a similar headspace as he is and would appreciate his advice. It’s true that you will probably have to be somewhat “connected” to run the BnB, but what I love about Cal’s approach is that it’s all about being intentional once you’ve done an initial social media pruning. Basically, it’s okay to use pre-screened internet tools to enhance your offline life!

      1. ch-ch-ch-Changes*

        Ooooh, very cool, I will look Cal Newport up. Thank you! digital pruning I love the sound of that.

    8. I Love Llamas*

      How exciting! Before you jump into the deep end of major changes, I would suggest you use this interim period for research, etc. I would highly recommend this book: https://designingyour.life/the-book/ I listened to the audio version and then bought the book. They provide an excellent structure for making big changes like you are contemplating. Good luck!

    10. Hillary*

      I love this idea, and I agree that it’s scary. You might think about a retreat center/retreat house model. They seem to have become more popular with crafting communities in recent years (or maybe I’m seeing the marketing now). Sewing doesn’t work well off the grid, but I can definitely see a retreat space being well used, especially if you’re a fairly short drive away from a major city. You can both run events to bring people together and let groups book the space. Good luck!

      1. Auto Generated Anon*

        Since you have a cushion, have you thought about a season working for somewhere similar to what you want to do? Maybe somewhere with a different focus or in a different part of the country?

        Side note – I’ve been reading too many cozy mysteries lately… when you leave your big city life behind and to live in a rural area and dead bodies show up on a regular basis, you were warned…. :)

    11. Windchime*

      I think your dream sounds amazing. I’m a similar demographic to you, and I’m starting to think about slowing down and making a change. I’m a very crafty person; I knit and quilt and recently just purchased a long-arm quilting machine. I’m literally having to rearrange my whole house just to fit the thing inside.

      My plan is to use the machine to practice on and get really good over the next couple of years, and then once I retire, I can either continue to quilt for fun or I could make a little side business out of it. I’m kind of playing it by ear right now, but it is starting to feel real now that I have bought the machine and it’s on its way to my house!

  8. Conflicted Job Seeker*

    I work in an industry that I don’t love (one that is much maligned on this site), at a business that has its share of dysfunction (but for the industry is actually a good player and is not nearly as dysfunctional as the rest), for a manager who leads an entire department, but appears to have zero sense of strategy and prefers surrounding herself with only “yes men.” All of this wears on me and I think I’ve just about hit my limit at this job. But I’m compensated very well, which allows me to visit friends and family and save well for plans I have in the future. I’ve recently started applying for other jobs and am coming to realize that if I want to change industries (which I really do), it’s going to require a pretty significant pay cut. I would still be fine for the area I live in, but losing 25% of my income would mean tens of thousands of dollars each year that I’m now not able to save or use to see friends and family or put aside as a down payment on a home. Growing up poor, being able to shove as much as possible into my savings account gives me a real peace of mind and the thought of not being able to do that is a level of uncertainty that I really struggle with. And I’m currently single, so I can’t count on a partner’s income to buffer the change. Has anyone else ever transitioned industries and had to deal with a significant pay cut to do it? How did it work out in the end? Was it worth it?

    1. SomebodyElse*

      I’ve not done this but maybe have some advice that might help. Start by banking 25% of your salary while you are still pondering this move on top of what your savings goals are… In other words put the 25% in an account that you can’t see don’t monitor. Give it 6 months and then decide if it’s doable for you. I have to be honest, I’ve had jobs I’ve loved and ones I’ve hated… even the ones I loved were a slog if I felt I was broke all the time.

      I’d also really be honest with yourself if it’s your job/industry or your current manager.

      1. Bananatiel*

        I love SomebodyElse’s ideas and want to echo that I’d make sure it isn’t your current manager that’s the main problem.

        If I might also suggest the humble pros/cons list– it’s the kind of thing that is much-maligned but can actually help you lay your feelings out on paper.

        I’m also a bit of a personal finance nerd but… in addition to saving that 25% to test the lower income– make budgets! Figure out in real terms what you’d be giving up. Maybe you have one budget scenario where you can still save up for a downpayment in X years but it would mean cutting out all trips. Or maybe in another scenario it means still taking trips for friends/family but it would take twice as long to save for the downpayment. Or there’s a middle scenario that’s most comfortable. If it’s all looking bad, then that’s something to consider, too! But often I’m pleasantly surprised when I run some “real” numbers.

    2. Yorkshire Rose*

      I can empathize… the pay is what is keeping me in my current job… having trouble finding something that pays as well as this one, so here I sit.

    3. evilsciencechick*

      “I work in an industry that I don’t love (one that is much maligned on this site), ”

      I can only imagine that you are a llama groomer or a teapot designer!

    4. new kid*

      This is such a real thing – it’s so hard to get stuck in a job that’s not right for you just because of the uncertainty around any alternatives, but I feel like that gets amped but by like 1000% if you know you won’t make as much $$ elsewhere.

      I did take a significant (over 40% in my case) pay cut to switch industries a few years ago. It was the right choice for me at the time, but I definitely underestimated how much of an impact the financial aspect would have on me. I obsessed about money for those years. But I also used that position to leverage myself into the one I have now which puts me back on track (and above) what I was making before the cut. So I think my advice having done it would be:

      1) be honest with yourself about what your life looks like at the lower salary and whether you’re okay with that
      2) do you research to determine if it’s likely to be a temporary vs. a forever cut, because that can really impact your mindset

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Not really a direct answer to what you asked, but have you considered staying in the same industry and moving company? Depends what you mean by ‘dysfunctional’ companies I suppose, as a department head with no strategy and only taking on yes-men sounds quite dysfunctional in itself — could you stick out a change to a different company for another couple of years and in the meantime save up as much as you can – maybe cut out the “see friends and family” a little if they are frequent or expensive trips (have you moved away from your ‘hometown’ area and friends/family are all back home?)

    6. UbiCaritas*

      I thought about it and chose not to. I was in a job that was ok but very stable. I was on track for a good (not great, but good) retirement and I had very good medical benefits (which I need and which continued into retirement). I have a hobby (choral singing) which was and is very fulfilling to me. But there’s a difference between being “okay” with your job and being unhappy – life is short, and your happiness is important. Maybe see a financial planner and ask some questions? What would happen to your retirement?

    7. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

      I stayed within my industry but switched from corporate to agency with a pay cut because i needed a break from reorg hell. It was a healthy break but I’m now looking for a more friendly corporate job. I mention this because nothing is permanent—the contacts you have now will still remember your skills if you make the change and decide later you want to go back to the industry you’re in. As long as you don’t wait forever. Taking a risk can be a good thing and help you understand what matters to you most!

    8. Lives in a Shoe*

      In 20o9 I took a nearly 50% pay it and changed industries entirely. It was hard at first and quite frankly terrifying with LOTS of imposter syndrome and a steep learning curve. 10 years later I can honestly say that I‘ve never been happier. (Wow! Can’t believe it’s been 10 years lol)

  9. August*

    Anyone have any advice for applying for another state government job 3 months into my first state government job? My current position is not at all what I anticipated (no manager, sporadic training, getting tons of comments from coworkers about what a dead end my department is) and an amazing position has come up in a different department. It’s a long shot, but I’ll be kicking myself if I don’t apply. Any risks? Should I leave my current position on my resume? I’ve heard already being a state employee gives you a leg up with transfers, but wanting to leave after 3 months definitely doesn’t look good.

    And maybe I’m getting ahead of myself, but how would I address leaving after 3 months in my interview? Both my current and this potential position are very research-heavy, so it’s not like my job duties aren’t what I want. My current position is just…bad. Too difficult in some aspects (bc there’s no documentation and the systems are needlessly complicated), too easy and boring in others, etc. My position was vacant for a year before I was hired, and my predecessor also left after 3 months.

    1. CheeryO*

      I’d apply and leave the current position on your resume/application. It will likely be easier for you to be hired since you’re already a state employee, so I wouldn’t try to hide that fact – it might really work in your favor depending on how quickly they want to get someone hired. Also, this depends on how your state civil service process works, but it sounds like you’re qualified for the job, so it’s super likely that you’ll at least get an interview and have the chance to explain the situation and assuage any concerns that you’ll be a short-timer in the new role.

      In my experience in state government, you need to jump on opportunities when they come up, and most people understand that that can mean short stays if it gets you to where you want/need to be. I’ve seen people job hop to get positions in the city that they want to work in, the division that they want to work in, the role that is better for career development, etc.

      1. August*

        That’s a huge relief, thank you. My coworkers talk a lot about how easy it is to transfer, but I can’t get over my knee-jerk “traitor!” reaction.

        1. CheeryO*

          I totally understand! You have to turn on your ruthless robot brain and just do what’s best for you. It can never hurt to apply, anyway.

    2. Jdc*

      I do not often you won’t be considered until you’ve put in a year. Per husband. Not sure if every branch works this way.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        At the state agency I work at, this is true for entirely new staff (the probation period is one year). However, you might be able to ask your HR exactly how the transfer process works. If it’s lateral within the same agency, the rules might be different. One real advantage of state employment is that you can usually get a ton of resources explaining the processes and rules. Or at least you can learn whether a similar opening is anticipated opening up when you would be ready.

        I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with showing that you have ambition and want to apply your skills in the way that best benefits you and the state.

        1. Public Sector Manager*

          I’m in California, and when it comes to civil service transfers, the department can have a lot of sway too. We had an employee leave before they were off probation with us but the receiving department made them repeat the entire 12-month probationary period. But when we picked up a really good attorney for another agency who was close to, but hadn’t finished, probation, we were able to use their time for the other agency to satisfy probation, so their probation with us technically was 6 weeks (but a year total to satisfy civil service).

          And getting back to the OP, in both situations, it wasn’t weird at all that people were looking to go to a different state agency before probation was up. It’s just what happens in civil service.

    3. Tmarie*

      I would make sure you are allowed to apply for a new position after only three months where you are.

      As I recall, from when I worked at a government agency, there were rules about when you were off probation, and when you could apply to different jobs.

      1. CheeryO*

        This is a good point. August, you might want to get in touch with your state civil service folks and/or HR at your agency and make sure you are eligible and understand the process for applying as an internal candidate.

        1. August*

          Does it make a difference if I’m not a civil service position? The department handbook doesn’t mention prohibiting internal transfers while on probation, but I’m a little leery about asking HR for more info (my office is very gossipy).

      2. August*

        Oh man, I hadn’t considered that. I’m still on union probation. Thanks for the tip, I’ll look into that!

      3. Kiwiii*

        When I was in a state position, I was advised that it would reset my probation period, but it wasn’t anything not allowed or even frowned upon

    4. Kiwiii*

      Because state positions aren’t great about raises or straight promotions, it doesn’t usually look strange to move teams/bureaus, especially immediately once you get into the work (when I was in my first state job, there was a position that nobody stayed in for over 14 months bc it was such a good step into other work) Also, there’s a 50/50 chance they know your job sucks or your team has terrible oversight. I had a coworker who was in a contract position for 5 months, an admin position for a month, an associate I position for not quite a year, and is now an associate II and everyone knows she’s a superstar and don’t really look at it like job-hopping because it’s all in the same Department, though different Bureaus.

  10. Haiku*

    I’m looking for a good out of office message – I’m resigning and going to a new job on Monday. Any suggestions for a script? Thank you!

    1. DCQ*

      Hello,

      I am no longer with XXXX. If you need assistance please reach out to [PERSON].

      Thank you,

      [NAME]

      (Keep it simple)

    2. CatCat*

      As of [Date], I am no longer with [Employer]. Please contact [Whoever] at [phone and/or email] for assistance.

    3. ThatGirl*

      Generally your company/IT department would handle this sort of thing – but the easiest route is the most straightforward: “Haiku is no longer with Company, Inc. Please direct all inquiries to so and so” and provide an email address and/or phone number

    4. kittymommy*

      Is the OOO message for your current job, the one you will be leaving? If so your company will probably handle that by either deactivating the email account (what we do) or setting up a standard message.

      1. pleaset AKA cheap rolls*

        The OP is part of the company, and if the account isn’t deactivated the IT team may be looking for the OP or her successor for the text. Certainly in the nonprofit space it’s often the case to not deactivate the account for a while but rather have a message about who the successor is. This is much more useful to people emailing the contact because it saves them from having to reach out to random other people in the organization.

        Then after a set period of time (a month or some number of months), it’s deactivated.

    5. A Simple Narwhal*

      Do you need an out of office message? I feel like anytime I’ve seen someone quit their manager just gets all of their emails forwarded to them and handles accordingly.

      Either way, I think you can keep it simple:

      “Thank you for your email! I know longer work at Teapots, Inc as of [last day]. Please contact [person] at [email] for all inquiries.

      Thank you,
      Haiku”

      Adjust for your voice of course, but I don’t think you need to do anything more complicated than that.

      Congrats and good luck with your new job!

    6. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      If your company is anything like mine, your email will be de-activated by midnight the day after your last day there so an out of office message won’t be a concern.

    8. Indy Dem*

      Hi, you’ve reached Haiku. Effective I have resigned my position as Teapot Manager at Teapots R’ Us. Please contact with any questions.

      Alternatively, depending on corporate culture and your reasons for leaving.

      Hi, you’ve reached Haiku. I’m f&$^ing out of here, so suck it, y’all.

      1. Indy Dem*

        It didn’t post some words in my initial reply like “date” and “name” so sorry if the first response sounds disjointed.

    9. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      I’ve used: “Thank you for your message. As of Friday 13th December [or whatever it is] I am no longer employed at XYZ. Please direct any queries about project A to Person 1 and any other enquiries to Person 2.”

    11. June First*

      THANK YOU for being conscientious about auto-replies.
      The majority of my work communications are via email. I’ve had multiple instances in the past few months where a business contact never responded to an email. In a couple cases, the person was typically slow to respond, so it wasn’t immediately obvious there was an issue. When I finally reached someone, they sounded surprised because the contact was no longer working there. An auto reply would have saved a lot of effort.

  11. ACDC*

    I’m a consultant and I’ve been onsite at the same client for over a year now. Last month they sent out invites to their holiday party and I received an invite. I was a little surprised since I wasn’t invited to their holiday party last year, but figured they decided to include contractors/consultants this year. I RSVP’d to attend pretty soon after the invite was sent out and was really looking forward to the party.

    Fast forward to yesterday when there was a rumor going around that we weren’t actually invited. I asked my coworker who is part of the party planning committee, and she confirmed that we were invited in error. They were “allowing” (her exact word choice) those contractors/consultants who RSVP’d to attend, but notified those who didn’t RSVP’d that they weren’t invited and they got the invitation by mistake.

    The person I report to at this client company is insisting I still attend because he knew nothing about it, but it still feels like shit. I feel like a kid in school that didn’t get invited to the party everyone else is going to until my mommy called their mommy to get me a pity invite. Maybe I’m being too sensitive, but it sucked. Just wanted to vent!

    1. Colette*

      I understand why it hurts, but this is very much not personal – this is about the company treating you as a consultant and not an employee, because there can be consequences to treating you as an employee.

      1. pancakes*

        Nah—guidelines around the legal differences between employees, consultants, and contractors are focused on supervision / independence of work, expertise, and taxes, nor holiday party attendance. The company is almost certainly retracting these invitations for tax deduction reasons instead. A party for employees and their spouses is 100% tax-deductible in the US, but if it’s for customers, contractors, vendors, etc., it’s considered Travel & Entertainment and only up to 50% deductible. I can understand wanting to save money and planning a party around that rule, but clawing back invitations that already went out is, by my standards, crass and miserly.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Agreed. When I was a temp at a law firm many moons ago, I was invited to all holiday parties even though I technically wasn’t their direct employee. And these people were cheap as hell!

    2. Turtlewings*

      Wow, that’s crappy. It’s pretty obviously hurtful to “uninvite” people at the best of times. While I’m glad they’re not forbidding the already-RSVP’d from coming, thus showing they do have some sense of delicacy and politeness, the only good thing to do here would have been suck it up and deal with the fact that the contractors/consultants are coming this year.

    3. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      I’d be weirded out that a company invited me to their company holiday party. As a cosultant or contractor, even with a long term relationship with a company, I would not expect to be invited or attend. For some companies, it verges on negating the consultant and contractor relationship which is seeing more blurred lines as companies are using temp/contractor/consultants for longer-term work periods.

      Some articles I’ve read suggest that contractor exclusion from holiday parties may happen because these companies are “extra cautious to take every opportunity to differentiate between employees and people working for contractors or staffing agencies.“

      Another says reasons for exclusion could be more strategic. “More than a legal fear is a fear of collective action,” she said. “They don’t want the contractors to feel like employees. They don’t want them to be motivated to feel like they could have the same benefits as the regular employees.”

      I can understand your feelings because it’s a mixed message. Yes or no – but don’t make me think about it.

      1. ACDC*

        Exactly! When I didn’t get invited last year it wasn’t surprise at all, but then the mixed message this year was like coooooooooooooolllllllll…

      2. pancakes*

        “For some companies, it verges on negating the consultant and contractor relationship which is seeing more blurred lines . . .”

        I’ve worked as a contact attorney off and on for around 15 years and this mindset doesn’t make any sense to me. Some firms have invited me to holiday parties and some haven’t. Neither option blurs lines in terms of who I report to, who I receive a W2 from, or what job security, if any, I have. If one party is somehow enough to blur lines for employee or employer, they don’t have a lucid understanding of the relationship.

        Strategically excluding contractors so as to thwart them organizing isn’t that simple. Google, for example, excludes its huge workforce of contractors from its all-hands meetings, not because they might organize while at the meetings but because it wants to send a message. Contractors who’ve written about this have mentioned how they’d be the only ones left in the office while FTEs are at all-hands meetings — a great time to organize, actually! The point and the practical effect are to send an exclusionary message.

    4. CorporateDroneLiz*

      *insert Stephanie Tanner HOW RUDE gif*

      How unkind to tell the contractors who didn’t RSVP “well you weren’t supposed to be invited anyway!” Ugh. I’m sorry this happened, but I hope you have fun anyway!

      1. londonedit*

        Yeah, I feel like if it was a mistake then there should have been a blanket ‘We’re very sorry, unfortunately there was an error with the party invitations and regrettably this event is for permanent staff only. We do appreciate all the hard work our contractors contribute and can only apologise for the error’ sort of message. Not ‘Oh crap well I guess we’d better let the ones who’ve already RSVPd come along, but we’ll have to tell the others that they shouldn’t have been invited’. It’s just not a very classy way of handling it, and I can see how it would totally make the ones who did RSVP feel like they’re only being allowed to come along out of pity!

    5. CatCat*

      It’s pretty crappy. You’re not too sensitive. You can go ahead and be “sick” that night rather than be stuck with a bunch of people who are merely tolerating your presence at the party. I get that mistakes happen, but the way the company is dealing with their mistake is not cool. The party planning committee is being pretty unwelcoming and they’re letting you know it.

      If there really is an issue like capacity or something, they should be apologizing profusely and doing something nice for those who received the erroneous message. And if they decide people can come despite the mistake since there really isn’t an issue, they should be warm and welcoming and not even point out that there was a mistake!

    6. Wishing You Well*

      Wow. Just wow.
      I’d make an appearance at the cool-kids’ party, but, geez, I wouldn’t stay long. This is really passive-aggressive stuff. It could have been handled so much better than this. I hope this job is otherwise acceptable to you.

      1. ACDC*

        Absolutely could have been handled so much better than this. I think if it had been handled differently I wouldn’t feel the way I do now.

      2. Free Meerkats*

        Show up, grab the most extravagant drink you can get from the (assuming free) bar, fill your plastic bag lined giant purse with all the shrimp and crab legs that will fit, and go have fun with friends.

        OK, don’t do that, but you can dream.

    7. Pampaloon*

      That’s terrible form. I have had to navigate this in the past as we had various different types of consultants, some worked in the work groups and were part of the team. We made sure they were invited because it seemed so horrible to exclude part of a day to day working team even if they were there on an assignment instead of an FTE basis. Once a mistake is made though, just own it and move forward gracefully.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah, don’t take this personal. My company also does this with contractors. Yes, it’s shitty, but I found out there are consequences because we do serve alcohol at our party and that is apparently a problem for the employment agency and liability issues.

  12. Greed is something we don't need*

    Thoughts on this idea for gifts for my team? I manage a team of 6, and I know gift cards are probably the best thing I can give them. However I got this idea from the yankee swap gift I received last year (at a family party, not work). I received a joke box with a ridiculous fake product advertised on it. Inside was the real gift, a gift card and assortment of chocolates.It was pretty funny and I thought it’d be more interesting to wrap a bunch of different prank product boxes with just gift cards inside. Good idea or no? I would obviously tell them all to look inside and hopefully nobody would be too disappointed after they see it’s not real, but should I stick to a standard boring card or is this alright for work? My hunch is that most of them will figure out it’s a fake product fairly quickly considering the box will feel empty, but I may have to tell them to open it.

    None of the prank products I would use are offensive/inappropriate, just absurd. (There’s a bunch on Amazon – a coffee machine for the shower, ear wax candle making kit, a machine to print photos onto cheese slices, etc) but I also know some people dislike all pranks in the workplace.

    1. DCQ*

      It really depends on your relationship with your team I think. If you typically joke around, I think its fine. But if this would be far out of the norm, don’t do it.

    2. Turtlewings*

      Mmmm, I can’t say I’m in favor. I’m imagining being handed an absurd and useless item by my boss that I then feel a panicked obligation to seem appreciative of… Even worse, what if someone was legitimately excited by their shower coffeepot or whatever (life is a rich tapestry) only to discover not are they not getting one, but the idea was considered so obviously stupid as to be a prank? Funny boxes is far from the worst thing you could do, I know. But a gift is not supposed to be an occasion for uncomplicated delight, and pranks (especially with any degree of power differential) can really throw a wrench in that.

      1. CheeryO*

        This times a million. I would definitely embarrass myself somehow, and it’s easier to laugh that off with friends or family than with your boss.

      2. Yorick*

        At one of those yankee swaps with prank gifts in high school, I got a set of false teeth. I was pretty excited about it but the girl took them back and said they were loaned by her parent (a dentist). I’m still kinda bitter about no gift.

    3. Veryanon*

      I probably wouldn’t, only because you don’t know how people would take it. It sounds more like something that you’d do with close friends or family.

    4. Wishing You Well*

      I wouldn’t prank my employees. This is a stressful time of year and I just wouldn’t add to it. Please make your gifts a positive experience to promote goodwill in the office.

    5. Hope*

      I wouldn’t, unless you and your team already do a lot of joking-type stuff (and even then, I’d avoid the ear wax candle thing because that just sounds gross, not funny).

    6. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I dislike all pranks in the workplace. I think that kind of box is only appropriate between very close friends/family, and then YMMV widely.

      From a colleague (and especially a boss) it looks a bit apologetic or something. Just spend the extra five bucks giving a bigger gift card or more candy with it, or whatever.

    7. Leslie Knope*

      This sounds like a funny idea, but I think the money you’ve budgeted for these gifts will be better spent on the gift itself and not the prank box. How much does each box cost? If each box cost $5 the employees will be better served to have an extra $5 on that Starbucks gift card or whatever you get them.

      My mother, who is the head of a county government office, had a funny idea one year. She got everyone socks (like festive trouser socks she got from J Crew that were $12 for 3 pairs). Everyone grumbles about getting socks for Christmas, right? The joke was that there was a Starbucks Gift card hidden in the socks.

      So if you’re going to spend a little extra to do something funny, at least make it something they can use. Happy gifting!

      1. Bananatiel*

        The sock idea is actually kind of cute! I think if the prank gift is somehow also practical or re-giftable then it’s not the worst thing.

        I got a handmade bar of soap from my boss last year with a very nice personalized card, no gift card or anything, and it was honestly the best holiday gift I’ve gotten from a boss because of… the card. The sincere words of appreciation and thanks were way better than any gift card or trinket I’ve gotten in recent years.

    9. Washi*

      I’m a person who enjoys pranks, but I just don’t think this is that funny! I think the contrast between the fake present and the real present would have to be higher. Like if my husband got me my favorite chocolate milk, but inside was actually tickets to Hamilton.

      If I opened a fake box to find a gift card, I would just be like…what….ok.

  13. DCQ*

    Has anyone made the jump from director to vice president? Any advice you can share? Particularly around letting directors have their autonomy to run departments but still being the overall leader? I am transitioning to that position in January and struggling just a bit with one set of directors I’m set to oversee who don’t want me involved.

    1. Havarti*

      I’m not a VP but I’ve seen VPs in action. You have two issues: 1. being VP and 2. being VP of staff that don’t want you involved. Hopefully you’re not a micromanager but the directors still need to report that projects are on track, on budget, properly staffed, etc. How do they not want you involved? Because people who insist they don’t need oversight are the first who go off the rails.

      1. DCQ*

        I’m being moved into this position in part because this particular division is floundering a bit. They don’t have a lot of direction and I’ve been told by our CEO that they want me to figure out how to get it on track. I’m trying to tread carefully though as obviously the directors are still in their roles and its still their division. There’s also the fact I’ve been at our org far less time than both of these directors and up to now have been their peer (overseeing a different, very successful division). The frame with which I’m being put in is to be their “support.” (The roll out of all of this has been a bit of a mess, as an aside). Anyway, I don’t know everything going on with the division and so want to as a first step talk to all the staff. When I mentioned this to the directors they basically flipped out and told me that that was getting “too involved.” Sigh. I just feel like I can’t do my job if I don’t step on their toes, but I also can’t do my job if they feel like I’m taking away their authority.

        1. IL JimP*

          I’m not a VP either but given what you wrote here there’s no way you’re not going to ruffle them. As long as you can communicate a good reason for what you’re doing I would say that would be the best route to take.

        2. Havarti*

          Try to frame it as you helping them succeed. But wait until you have a clear picture of the situation before proposing solutions. A general meeting with everyone is a good start. You’ll want to meet one-on-one with the directors. Meeting directly with the staff under them is tricky because it will be seen as you skipping a level of the hierarchy and the implication that the directors can’t be trusted. VPs where I’m at meet with their direct reports and sometimes other staff on the project will come as well to provide more details but unless there’s a problem, lower level staff don’t meet one-on-one with the VPs. So if you do that, I could see why the directors wouldn’t like that.

    2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      In my experience, the reason people wanted to keep their bosses out of their work was due to some sort of mismatch. Like for example, if my boss came up through the Teapots Department, but I’m the Llama Barn Director, in the past I’ve had a terrible time explaining that my work is heavily limited by animal welfare regulations. Or that my boss was abusive, and I needed to insulate my employees from him because he’d fire them for having the wrong socks under their riding boots, and then punish me when we got behind in our llama training goals.

      Is it possible any of these things are going on? You have a different skillset than they do, or their previous boss was a Problem and they’re used to having to hide to get their work done?

    3. Bizarro Me*

      I had a similar situation a few years ago. For the most part, I set expectations on roles and responsibilities and scheduled periodic check-in meetings. I explained that while I expected each director to continue to manage their team, there is a delineation between the director’s responsibility and authority level and mine. This approach worked with all but one director. Due to poor prior leadership and supervision, this person misunderstood their role and responsibility and expected to run their team as they saw fit with no feedback, guidance, or input from me. Sadly, they never “got it”.

  14. Hamster*

    Do you guys think this person is being entitled or am I being too harsh?

    Someone at my company started a few months ago. they are pretty young and this is their first job. I am a senior here but not their manager.

    Their role is that of admin/customer service, with possibility to get promoted to the technical side of things. Our company frequently promotes admins as long as they meet the certain criteria. The job description and interview make that clear.

    In their 4 months here-
    They’re on their phone all the time
    The company gave us 12/26 off and they wanted to push for the Monday and Friday to be closed.
    Said I was tattling on him when I pointed something out to his manager (it wasn’t a serious thing but he didnt take it well).
    They confided in me and their manager that they don’t like their position, are bored, and want to get promoted. Even though company policy is very clear—they can only get promoted if they meet certain criteria, which many others have met and were successful in getting promoted.

    It’ doesn’t affect me so I should probably MMOB I’m just wondering if I’m being unreasonable here.

    1. Jess*

      If I was the manager, I’d err on the side of caution and assume this is down to someone young with unreasonable expectations of general workplace culture. I’d might try to talk to them and encourage them to slow that horse down. You’re “senior” – do you have a good working relationship with their manager to chat about that? This entirely depends on your relationship with them.

      I have a feeling this person is just going to have to get an education through the school of hard knocks though. How do you improve someone who already thinks they’re so great? I don’t think they’ll last long, so it might not be worth the effort to get involved.

    3. Fikly*

      I mean, they are not acting as they should, but I’m not sure I’d call it entitlement? The closest thing seems to be that they want to be promoted, but there’s nothing entitled about wanting something. Entitlement is feeling you deserve something you clearly do not deserve.

      1. LilySparrow*

        Thinking it’s appropriate for a brand-new junior admin to “push” for the entire business to close so they can have extra days off sounds like they are radically overestimating their own political capital, at best.

        I mean you can split hairs over the definition of entitlement, but an inflated sense of one’s own importance is certainly an element of entitlement.

        1. Fikly*

          There is a vast difference between splitting hairs and defining a word correctly.

          People who are unhappy about a word not being used to mean what they want it to mean often default to “it’s just semantics” or “you’re splitting hairs” when there is a genuine important difference.

          1. LilySparrow*

            The junior admin believed they were entitled to ask the business to close. They were not.

            There is a vast difference between participating substantively to offer relevant insight, and picking silly arguments over word choice just to attempt a wierd and inaccurate flex on an internet stranger.

            People who are unhappy that words acquire more complex or contextual meanings through common usage often default to pointless insistence on “official” definitions.

            Even though nobody else was having any difficulty understanding the conversation.

            1. Fikly*

              Well, no. I 100% understand that the meanings of words change over time and gain more complexity. However, the changed meaning still has to be accepted by a large enough group to be common use. The meaning you are using hasn’t been accepted by that many people yet.

              Misjudgment is not entitlement. There is a difference between asking for something and thinking you deserve to have it happen. Should people never ask for anything?

  15. Stephen!*

    Have you ever had an interview with an “industry representative” present?

    I’m applying for a job that does inspections, and while it is not as contentious as say, coal mine safety inspections, I find it odd that they would have a business owner present. I’ve applied for this and other similar jobs before and never ran into a person outside the department being part of the interview.

    1. Notasecurityguard*

      Back when I WAS a security guard we had a consulting company come in to audit us and we had a group interview about what was/wasn’t working that our bosses were there for and individual interviews that were one-on-one. But the consultants were explicitly brought in by big-Boss and not like OSHA

    2. Charlotte Collins*

      Not exactly the same thing, but when I applied internally to be a trainer within a division of the company, one of the senior trainers from corporate was part of the interview. (I had to give a presentation, which is common for training positions.) It went well, because the hiring manager was friends with the other trainer and it was very comfortable.

      I later found out that due to a contract change that meant we had to hire a bunch of new staff, and when lowere level staff was applying for related promotions, they were combining two types of interviews into one: one was an assessment (to see if bargaining unit staff had what it takes to be exempt) and the other was the interview for the positions themselves. I was perfectly happy to only have to go through one interview instead of two.

    3. Kiwiii*

      I used to help set up interviews for coordinator-level state positions, it was basically their job to have optics on county-level leaders and make sure counties weren’t wildly out of lane regarding whichever human services they dealt with. these interviews Always had a county-representative in them, usually the County Services Director or Deputy Director. It stands to reason that they should be consulted when someone’s coming into work with and over them.

  16. ZSD*

    My mother has decided that my less-blonde-than-she-would-like hair with my non-recent highlights is holding me back in my job search.
    I’ve been job searching for over three years. I last had my hair highlighted ten months ago. I really don’t think that’s the problem.

    (Lest anyone be too concerned, I am currently employed. I just want a different job.)

    1. DCQ*

      Why does this remind me of the update that was just posted about the mom telling someone they were too fat to get a job? What is with mothers???

      (As a side note, I don’t look at how someone looks when making hiring decisions — its all about skills and fit).

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        To be fair to mothers: My dad has told me repeatedly I wasn’t going to get job offers if my glasses were dirty. Also, both my parents tell me my glasses are too dorky looking.

        I love my parents. They just sometimes say thoughtless things.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Ugh that’s annoying. Just like the person this morning (whose mom said they were too fat to get hired), it’s time to put your mom on an information diet.

      Unless you are applying for blonde entertainment positions, the color of your hair is irrelevant to your job search.

    3. Another JD*

      Unless you’re applying for positions where a polished appearance is important, I don’t think it matters.

    4. Veryanon*

      I wouldn’t be too concerned about your hair. You can always pull it back in a bun or pony tail if you’re looking to present a more polished image during an interview. What is it with moms this week?

      1. Kat in VA*

        This. I’m an executive assistant and looking polished *is* important, particular with customer meetings.

        My entire routing of my hair is wash it, let it air dry, and that’s it. No color, no styling, I get the dead stuff trimmed off once a year.

        I wear it almost exclusively in a low bun when I’m at the office and not once has anyone ever suggested that the color is too drab (dark brown with a fat streak of silver on one side), the style is too boring (because buns are kinda boring), or that I’m anything other than polished and professional.

        Your mom sounds like she’s being nitpicky. And if some place isn’t going to hire you because your hair is dishwater blonde instead of bright blonde with sparkly highlights, you really REALLY don’t want to work there anyway.

    5. Leslie Knope*

      The grown-out roots look isn’t going away anytime soon (I rock it myself! Easier upkeep!). I think your mom is just out of touch with the norms. As long as your hair doesn’t look neglected I think you’re fine.

      A couple of people have commented here that pulling it back could help you feel more polished. For me, when my hair gets about 4 months out from having been highlighted (I only go twice a year) I don’t like the way it looks pulled back a certain way. It makes my roots look all dark and then all of a sudden – boom – blonde pony tail. So I’ll opt for a bun instead of a low pony tail at that point. I take care to spread the hair in the bun in a way that it looks equally blonde/brown…because I’ve noticed fixing it a certain way makes it look like a swirly cinnamon roll on top of my head.

      I’m a particularly picky person when it comes to that sort of thing, though. As long as you feel comfortable with the way it looks then you should just tune out your mom’s advice. Good luck!

    6. ArtK*

      Like the previous LW whose mother thought that she was overweight and that was holding her back, your mother is projecting her personal issues with your appearance and trying to use your job search as a lever. In fairness, I doubt that either of them realize that they’re doing it, but it is a mom (and dad) thing. You may have to put her on an information diet relating to your search, just as Alison advised the previous LW.

      That said, looking neat and professional can help you in your search. A lot depends on the field. Big Law? Gotta look polished. IT? Not so much. Do you have some trusted friends in the field who can give you some less biased feedback about your appearance? It stinks that this is even an issue (especially for women), but it’s the reality and outside advice can be useful.

    7. Yes Anastasia*

      I don’t wear makeup, I used to cut my hair at home, and all of my interview clothes come from thrift stores – nevertheless, I have successful interviews.

      Best of luck with your job search!

  17. straws*

    We have a holiday tree that we put up every year, and I’d like to make it less “winter holiday” and more of a year round seasonal display. I’m not the super creative type, so I’m looking for some ideas for seasonal decorations? For example, I was thinking of putting birds and flowers on it for the start of spring. And, should I stick to the 4 seasons (we’re in an area in the US where all 4 do occur!), or add in other things (like maybe flags for Independence day)?

    1. Beancat*

      So my mother actually used to do this for holidays! We had a white little fake tree that she hung things on. We did do red/white/blue for independence day, little pumpkins for fall, etc. :)

      1. straws*

        I think I’ll definitely have to do more than just 4 seasons then, so I can do both red/white/blue and the flamingos mentioned below!

    2. SomebodyElse*

      One of my teams has a small one that is decorated year round.

      Winter- traditional christmas tree ornaments
      Spring- Eggs, shamrocks, flowers
      Summer- light up flamingos, flags, and other summer-y stuff
      Fall- bats and ghosts lights

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      For summer, do little pineapples, pool floaties/toys, volleyballs, etc. Fall could be turning leaves, pumpkins, ghosts, and so on. Spring could be birds, bunnies, flowers… Winter is snowflakes, cardinals, moose, sweaters, slippers…go for a generic winter tree instead of “oh hey Christmas”. I always feel sorry for people who don’t celebrate Christmas around this time of year.

      Maybe each employee who has a birthday could have a little birthday hat? Gets into some politics there, so maybe ignore that idea.

      I knew a lady who did a new tree each month. It was…intense.

    4. CircleBack*

      My old office had a Christmas tree that lingered because no one wanted to take it down and find a place to store it. I printed out photos of Martin Luther King Jr and hung them as ornaments to celebrate MLK Day, which got some smiles before the tree was finally stored away. I think it would be delightful to celebrate for holidays that come up!

    5. Homo neanderthalensis*

      If it’s a tree- it’s Christian. Putting other colored baubles on it doesn’t make it any less of a Christmas tree.0

      2. rinkydink*

        Even a maple? :P

        In seriousness though, one thing that might make this transition between seasons more fluidly is not having it be an evergreen Christmas-looking tree – that seems like it would stick out a bit in August with the flamingos, or whatever. Maybe look for something more like a sculpted shrub or maple tree? If you’re aiming fake, you can find these online or at Ikea/Target-type stores. I think a shrub/bush would work year-round particularly well since they’re green year-round in the “wild” (flowers in spring, etc). Just a thought!

      4. No Name*

        The Christmas tree started with the pagans, was taken over by the Christians and then evolved into a secular celebration of Santa Claus. You could almost call Santa Claus a religion though, given how angry people get when you tell them your toddlers don’t believe in Santa and then try to convince them Santa is real. Right in front of me. After I just said we don’t celebrate him. I digress though. I disagree that Christian’s have the sole claim to a decorated tree.

    6. Fikly*

      My family actually had bird ornaments (that were for Christmas) but they weren’t particularly Christmas themed, so one year we kept them on but took all the rest off and it was super fun in the spring!

      1. straws*

        I really like the idea of using birds for spring. I’ll have to see if there are any non-christmasy ones on sale after the holiday ends.

    7. Apt Nickname*

      A coworker does this with a mini tree. So far my favorite ornaments have been for Presidents/Valentine’s Day- pink paper hearts with pictures of various presidents on them.

    8. Charlotte Collins*

      Years ago, some local radio personalities in Chicago had a tree up in their house all year round. They did one theme a month. January was Elvis month, because he was born in January.

    9. pony tailed wonder*

      We have a duck that we change costumes for. It’s apparently a thing. Google duck costumes statue and you will see what I mean. Y

  18. I am gonna make it through this year*

    Question for those whose jobs takes them into other people’s houses: how do you feel about the person living there hovering?

    I ask this because this month, I’ve had lots of people doing maintenance in my apartment, and I’ve always stayed as much as possible by them, in case they needed anything or had any questions. And sometimes they do need stuff; I’ve provided paper towels and sponges and things like that.

    But as I was hovering around a plumber for about an hour this week, I got to wondering if I was being a rude client and if they just wanted me to go away and stop watching them do their jobs. And I know I personally hate it when someone is standing over me while I’m doing my job.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Be within calling distance. Let them know you’d be happy to answer questions. And offer a cup of coffee or something if they’ll be there for awhile.

      And for goodness sake, if they’re going to be there for more than a short while, specifically say out loud that they’re welcome to use your bathroom so they don’t have to ask.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I work from home, but when I have workers in my house doing things, I point them to where they need to be, the restroom is here, my home office is just past it, want a bottle of water, please let me know if you need anything else from me.

      If I’m going to be on a meeting or call for more than a couple minutes, I usually let them know that along the lines of, I need to be on a call for a bit, are you anticipating any noisy bits to the work in the next hour that I should be aware of? but I definitely don’t deliberately stay in the same area they’re working in.

    3. ThatGirl*

      Generally I try to stay nearby/within calling distance, as Aspiring Chicken Lady said, but not *right there* – I may wander off for a few minutes, etc. We had a guy replacing our front door a few weeks ago, and I mostly stayed in the living room where he could easily call for me, without being right there in the dust zone.

    4. fposte*

      It seems like you’re feeling you have to host here, and you really don’t have to. I stay within vague earshot (like, I’ll hear them yell) but otherwise I leave them to it, unless I want to see what they’re doing for my own edification (in which case I’ll say exactly that). I don’t know that it’s rude to hover but it’s certainly not necessary; they’ll ask you if they need something, and they do a lot of work in places where nobody’s home and they get their own wipes.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        ^^ This too. It’s not rude to NOT provide water or wipes. He carries all this, plus trash bags, a vacuum, etc. It’s not rude to offer, but it is not like when we weekend DIY’ers do stuff and are not prepared.

          2. AnotherAlison*

            Well, I hope it wasn’t the plumber. That should be a given supply need for them. I’ll walk it back a bit, and note my spouse is a 20+ year professional and master electrician. Would one of the 22 year old employees be as prepared? Perhaps not. The main thing is it is not your role to provide it and you don’t have to.

            1. I am gonna make it through this year*

              Yep, that was the plumber.

              To be fair, he went back to his car multiple times, the first two times to bring back things like pliers and a wrench. I was a little surprised, since my previous experiences with plumbers, they brought along backpacks with their tools.

      2. I am gonna make it through this year*

        It seems like you’re feeling you have to host here, and you really don’t have to.

        *hides under the bed from feeling so Seen*

        These are all very good points, thank you.

      3. Third or Nothing!*

        Yeah sometimes I’ll ask if I can stay and watch so I can learn. We rent, so it’s usually the same maintenance guy who comes to fix things. He’s really nice and willing to explain what he’s doing.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      I think they hate it! My husband is an electrician and does a lot of service work in people’s houses. It’s annoying if they are hovering, asking a bunch of second-guessing type questions, or just overly chatty while he’s doing his work, etc. He has to go in and out a lot, and just wants to move quickly without interruption. It is good to be nearby or tell them where you are going to be in the house, but he would prefer you not be there at all than all over him. He’s done 1000s of jobs and probably doesn’t have many questions for you about your house. He’s much nicer than me, though, and wouldn’t say. He just comes home and tells me about the guy that wouldn’t leave him alone, etc. (PS – electrical engineers are the worst customers.)

      1. Close Bracket*

        electrical engineers are the worst customers.

        That doesn’t surprise me at all. It’s juuust close enough to electrician work that you think you know how to do it, but really you don’t, and somebody who thinks they know your job but doesn’t strikes me as incredibly obnoxious. I bet a EE could understand everything an electrician does if the electrician told them what they were doing, but wiring a house and designing a control loop or a power amp are not really the same.

    6. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Honestly, it depends. If I think they’re sketchy for some reason, I’m keeping closer tabs. I will be having a plumber some to redo some work that they screwed up – and you bet that I will supervising every minute. Sometimes, I don’t care if I’m annoying.

      Most of the time, I try to be available and responsive, but not necessarily RIGHT THERE. Sometimes I’m interested in how they do what they’re doing, and I will specifically tell them that I’m curious and do they mind if I watch. Me being explicit on why I’m watching seems to make them more comfortable. Plus, I’ll then ask questions sometimes that show that I really am trying to understand/learn. Its a different kind of annoyance.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        I definitely don’t think anyone is obligated to leave a service person alone in their home. You’re the one paying. Your comfort is first.

      2. pancakes*

        Do you know enough about plumbing that you’ll be able to tell if the plumber screws up again or are you trying to send a message that you don’t trust them? If the latter, I think it would be better to hire a different plumber rather than bring this one back and try to irritate them.

    7. Niniel*

      I have to go to people’s yards for my job, and I absolutely hate it when they hover. Please, go inside. It’s creepy when you follow me everywhere, especially if you’re a man(I’m female). I don’t need to be monitored and I’ll ask you if I need any other questions answered.

      So introduce yourself, show them the problem areas, and then let them know where to find you/contact you. Then do other things!

    8. Do I need a hard hat for this?*

      As someone who works in the residential construction industry and deals with contractors – someone like that would be seen as unorganized and would not be rehired by our company. A contractor is expected to have everything they need to be able to do the job, even if that means having paper towels handy. They should expect that they’re not going to be able to use any of your personal supplies to do their job.

      Be friendly, but not overly accommodating. Don’t hover, but also don’t be so far removed that you have no idea what’s going on in there. It’s not rude to walk by every once in a while so you have an understanding of what’s happening, even if you have to ask questions. You want to feel informed – what was broken/not working properly, what parts they replaced, and if anything had to be disassembled and reassembled to be repaired. If they don’t want to answer any questions then that’s not someone you want in your home next time.

    9. Elizabeth West*

      My mum currently has contractors remodeling a bathroom. Both of us have avoided hovering, although I like to peek in and see the progress (the tile is really pretty). We actually had to gang up on the tile dude and insist he take a lunch break, however; he was working through to make up time from another, very demanding client and was making mistakes due to lack of sustenance.

      When I had people in my own house, I just stayed available but out of the way. The washer replacement was an exception. I had to hold the door open and move stuff out of their way when they switched out the machines.

    10. QCI*

      I use to do disaster cleanup (water, fire, general) and my wife still does it. We might be in your house for 8+ hours at a time. Be available if you’re going to be home, but we’d prefer you not hover, it’s a lot easier to work if I don’t have to work around you or try to hold a conversation. Ask questions if you have them, it’s your house and you’re paying for a service (or insurance is), but give them space.

    11. Auntie Social*

      Don’t hover. I offer a water, point to the loo, show them where the water shut-off is. I bring old towels and my kneeler because I don’t know what he’s doing, but hey, he might need these. Then I say “I’m around if you need me”, and go in a nearby room.

    12. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      I don’t go into other people’s houses as part of my job, but I think I have a fairly good grasp of the etiquette, as someone who has also had a lot of builders, plumbers etc in my place over the last few years. (I bought a place that was built in the 1950s and seems to have had only cosmetic work done so I have inherited a lot of problems that have now come to roost!)

      .. I do however work in a (desk based) role where I am often doing “things” for other people who have asked for a particular thing to be fixed, some numbers to be pulled out, or something like that.

      You already identified it when you said you personally hate it when someone is standing over you while you do your job. I do too (and I think most people do!) — and “hovering” is definitely standing over them, rather than being helpful (I know you are intending to be helpful). Comes off as micromanaging, lack of trust or even just they will feel self conscious about any mistakes, talking to themselves (“why the *** did the previous guy do it like that!?!” etc)

      The polite way is to let them know that you are around if they need anything and don’t hesitate to ask — “I’ll stay out of your way but please do pop in if you need anything” etc.

      If you are working from home and need to do anything time-sensitive like conference calls then communicate that, e.g. “just so you know I have to do a conference call at 11.00 until 12.00 but you can send me a message on Whats App if it’s urgent” (or whatever applies).

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

        And btw, most trades people will be too polite to ask you not to “hover” but I can tell you with some level of assurance that they will be thinking it or secretly hating you for it! (How do you feel when someone is ‘standing over you’ while you do your job?, and it won’t be too far from that.)

        I actually have a multi-day project going on in my place at the moment and I have given the person a key to come round after we’ve left for work, he is getting on with it “unsupervised” and doing a good job! — I’ve resisted the temptation to ask too many details about “so what are you going to do next? what have you completed today?” etc as I respect a fellow professional to plan their own work and know what they are going to do next without having to ‘report back’… but of course I did make it clear that if he needs anything I am just at the end of the phone.

        1. Venus*

          Most, but not all. I had someone visit to do repairs, and when I asked how it worked his face lit up and he told me in detail. With so many things in life, it depends.

  19. Beancat*

    So this week my coworkers banded together to throw me a surprise little wedding tea/snack hour and I almost ended up in tears. So many people came by and it made me feel really, really special.

      1. Beancat*

        The event itself was a lovely surprise! The coworker who organized it knows me well enough to know that I don’t always do well with a lot of attention and crowds and she gave me a discrete heads up that she was planning *something*, but I had NO idea of the extent she went to :)

  20. Rejected Again*

    I’ve been actively applying for a year. I’ve managed to get in interviews, but I always end up failing it. I’ve just gotten a rejection email couple of days ago, and I’m feeling so hopeless already. Like nobody wants to give me a chance.. I wanted to stay positive and confident, but it’s really hard.
    It’s the interviews- I probably can’t present myself well, even though I practice possible answers.
    I just want to get over with this job search.

    1. Sleepy*

      That really sucks. Can you temp your way into a job? My husband is terrible at interviewing and all his job offers came after he temped at places. They were willing to offer him permanent positions after they saw the quality of his work.

      1. Rejected Again*

        It’s hard coz I don’t want to leave a permanent, full time job to do that – very risky for those bills to pay lol…
        What upset me recently was I was applying to higher level ones and I failed those, so I understand I may really be unqualified, so I tried the entry level one – and I still failed!!
        I make high marks for the exams and then the interviews after are what keeps me from progressing.

        1. irene adler*

          Can you identify what it is in the interview that you feel is the issue?
          Do you find yourself answering questions you didn’t expect them to ask?
          Do you find you ramble with your responses?
          Do you “shut down” during the interview and perhaps come off as standoffish?
          Is a year long job search the norm for your field?
          Can you get some outside perspective on how you interview or how the job hunt process works in your field? Thinking that if there’s a professional organization in your field, they might have some suggestions that would benefit you.

        2. Working with professionals*

          I’m job hunting myself now and have, like you, made it to the final round for several places but not gotten hired. It is easy to get discouraged if you view it as not being chosen. I changed my mindset on that with remembering Allison’s advice. This is a two way street, you are interviewing them too. That helped me feel more equal in the situation which reduced the nervous responses I had. Maybe take a short break, reframe this as a relationship you are considering and realize you really don’t want just any job, but rather a great fitting job as part of your lifetime career. After I calmed down from the rejections and reflected on my interviews I realized there were things that hadn’t hit me right at the time but I skated over them because I was so focused on wanting to be accepted. Help yourself step back a bit and look objectively at those interviews. I’m pretty sure you were fine, unless you did one of those “out of the box” behaviors we’ve read about on here such as wearing a wet bathing suit, criticizing the interviewer or the spectacularly out there potted plant pooper. Hang in there!

        3. Diahann Carroll*

          It sounds like you should be targeting mid-level jobs if you can’t get higher-level jobs or the entry-level positions. Are there any of those positions available in your current market? If not, are you able to relocate at all?

    2. Fikly*

      It might help to reframe this. I’m seeing a lot of negative language – you’re “failing” the interviews, “nobody wants … me” “can’t present myself.”

      If there’s only one job opening, no matter how many qualified applicants there are, who all have the skills and do well at the interview, they can only offer the job to one person, assuming that person accepts. And the majority of job openings have more qualified applicants than just one.

    3. ArtK*

      Have you practiced with another person, or just rehearsed the answers? Working with someone in a simulated interview may help. You can get good feedback on how you’re presenting yourself.

      Remember, too, what Alison often repeats: Much of the time it’s less about you and more about what the candidate pool looks like. It’s also more about what the hiring team are actually looking for. You could be acing the interviews but still not getting a job due to things far beyond your control.

    4. Rejected Again*

      Thanks for all the advise. I guess I’m not accepting the rejections well that’s why I’m being negative already.
      I need to practice interviewing more. I write better but when I need to recite those notes to answer the question, maybe I mumble and get sidetracked.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Is there a career center near you? Sometimes you can practice there for free. It does really take the right mindset sometimes. I’ve often done better in interviews where I didn’t care whether or not if I was hired! Like anything, it’s a skill. You can get better at it!

        But even so, with all my practice and actual interviews, sometimes I still have flubs. Don’t beat yourself up over it.

        1. Kat in VA*

          I’ve often done better in interviews where I didn’t care whether or not if I was hired!

          This completely! I always do better in interviews where I’m like, “Eh, I don’t really care about this job but I’ll interview anyway, just to be sure” and THOSE ones, I always ace. It’s the ones that I REALLY want where I tend to flounder, flub, and not do well.

  21. Breakroom Quandry*

    We have 2 microwaves in our breakroom. There is a group of women (all hourly employees) who take a 30-minute lunch every day at 11:30. They usually slip away a few minutes early to stick their food in the microwave or toaster oven before clocking out, so the food is hot when they are on lunch. I am an exempt employee and can take a whole hour for lunch, but I like to use that time for errands or just getting out of the office. I eat at my desk while working. Yesterday, I got hungry earlier than normal and decided to go heat up my baked potato at 11:15ish. When I got there, one microwave was already in use. Another woman came in as I was in the middle of heating up my food. She didn’t say anything and just went back to work until I was done with the microwave. Should I have waited to finish heating up my lunch until after she was done with the microwave?

    1. Colette*

      No, I think you were fine. Everywhere I’ve worked, microwaves are first come-first serve. And I don’t think anyone is entitled to be able to warm up their lunch on the clock. (I don’t think it’s a problem that they do, but it’s a bonus, not a requirement).

    2. SomebodyElse*

      I think it’s ok that you used it, but I would make an effort to normally avoid their typical usage times since they have a bit of a timer over their lunch.

    3. CircleBack*

      Only if you spent more than a couple minutes heating up – it’s first come first serve with more than one available, and it sounds like you don’t do it every day. Rest easy.

    4. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I agree you were fine. She looked in to see if there was a microwave free, and there wasn’t. No big deal; come back later.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      I think it depends on potato size and time. Also – what do they normally do? I’d hesitate to spend another 7 minutes on my xl potato if they are typically nuking some minute rice, but if they tie up the microwave for the longest cook time ever Lean Cuisine, then I wouldn’t mind if they waited this one time.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        I think in the context of a busy office people should only be reheating food and not cooking it. I noticed that LW used phrasing like “heat my potato” so more like 3 minutes than 10.

        In winter spouse used to cook a big potato thoroughly at home, and take it to work on the rattly old train as a hand warmer, then refrigerating it at work once he got there and it was cold, and reheating it at lunchtime.

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      I think the use of the words “slip away […] early” to heat food up before lunch in respect of hourly people speaks volumes, personally.

    7. lasslisa*

      I don’t know that you did anything *wrong* per se but it would certainly be considerate to remember and give them priority on the kitchen if you think their management is strict about this. There are hourly employees with fixed specific hours who would have been told by management to only take a half hour lunch, and there are hourly employees who are simply paid per hour and who would be choosing to take a half hour lunch so they can leave a half-hour earlier than they normally would. If it’s management mandate I’d definitely try to help give them the best use of their short lunch break. If it’s just their system for optimizing their time, then it has about the same weight as your system for that (errands at lunch).

  22. Diahann Carroll*

    Update on my job title situation:

    My title was officially changed to the higher-level title my manager and I came up with on Monday! Still no confirmation from HR as to whether my pay band would also increase; however, with the new title, the average salary for my “new” role is $76k a year, which is only $6k more than my base salary (I get quarterly loss bonuses). The high end of the pay scale for people with my title in my city is $114k a year, and my old title was capped internally at $75k. I really hope that since my manager gave HR an updated job description that justified my title change they also understand why the pay band needs to also move – I’m doing way more work than what was originally conceived of for this role (and I don’t mind that – everything I’m doing was something I made moves to be involved in, so I basically shaped this role the way I wanted it to be).

    Anyway, my manager and I also talked today about expanding my role even more to be responsible for the oversight of our content’s graphics and how everything looks. I told him I was considering going to take classes in graphic design once I hit the year mark with our company and can participate in the tuition reimbursement program, and he said that’s an excellent idea. He said he thinks I have a natural ability to see how things work visually that my counterpart just doesn’t have, so he’s hopeful that we can make my role even more significant here. He also told me that he’s had many talks with senior leadership, and our team is not only one they plan to keep long-term due to the value they’ve seen in what we do so far (remember – my team is brand new and I was the first hired), but also because they think it can be expanded to include oversight of the entire company’s content. I was so excited by that possibility, and I really will need a raise if that’s the case, lol.

    Just wanted to share some good news since a lot of the stuff that’s posted here is not always uplifting, lol. Happy Friday, everybody!

  23. The Other Alice*

    Xmas party is tonight and I wish I could skip it and go out with my friends, but apparently this party is a Very Big Deal. Out of 200 employees I think almost everyone is going and I didn’t want to be the odd one out, given I’m new and everything. I spent entirely too long picking out a nice top yesterday, and I’m still worried that I’ll be woefully underdressed. I also can’t hold alcohol, at all; one glass of wine and I’m tipsy, two glasses of wine and I’m done for; so fingers crossed I won’t make a fool of myself. Hoping to show up, mingle a bit, and duck out early to join my friends.

    Tips for surviving a company party with 200 people where I know maybe 10 people?

    1. SomebodyElse*

      Well… it’s a good opportunity to meet new people :)

      Don’t have more than one glass of wine (or even that if you don’t want it), wander around and look for other people wandering around by themselves… wander near them and strike up a conversation. Own the awkward (there will be others there who don’t know who to talk to either).

      “Ughh… note to self… don’t start a new job right before the Xmas party! 1 week isn’t long enough to meet enough people”
      “Wow… this is a great turnout… are the parties always like this? I’ve only been with ACME for a couple of weeks so this is my first time attending”
      “Excuse me… where did you find food/bar/the person with the raffle tickets I keep seeing them but aren’t sure where they are coming from”

      1. SomebodyElse*

        One more bit of advice on the wine thing… if you like wine and want to drink it. Ask the bartender to make you a spritzer. White wine/Seltzer… tasty but less wine per glass and takes you longer to consume it.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          I was just about to say that. Or ask for a club soda or Sprite/Ginger Ale in a wine glass or champagne flute if they have it – those drinks will look festive.

        2. Ama*

          One of my colleagues doesn’t drink and asks the bartender to make her a Shirley Temple every year, and it always looks so tempting (they have a decent bar at the place we have our party) that multiple coworkers go and get their own.

    2. CircleBack*

      The bigger the party, the less anyone will notice if you have the same glass/cup in your hand the whole night. Look for your 10 people since they probably feel the same way you do.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      If you want to avoid drinking and also want to avoid questions, seltzer with a lime/almost any drink with a fruit in it looks like a cocktail.

      Smile a bunch, make small talk with anyone that comes up to you – if you don’t know a work specific thing to say (“great job with the dinosaur training”, “I heard you handled the noodles account very well”, “what did you think about the marimba project that was just announced”), asking someone about their holiday plans is a great fall back.

      It’s also fine to just hang out with the 10 people you know, these things don’t really need to be a major socializing event. But it can be a good way to put in a little facetime with some new people or a higher up if the opportunity presents itself.

      I say all of this as someone who hates forced socializing work events and was almost jumping for joy that I had a non-movable conflict and got to skip my company’s holiday party this year. So yea, go, make an appearance, sip on a soda while you make some small talk, and then feel free to go meet up with your friends.

      1. Shirley Keeldar*

        I very much want to go to the party with the noodle accountant, the marimba team, and the dinosaur trainers.

    4. CheeryO*

      I give you permission to mingle a bit and then duck out to hang out with your friends! Try to stay open-minded about chatting with people you don’t know – people tend to get super friendly when the drinks are flowing, and it’s easier than you think to get a conversation going – but don’t worry if that doesn’t really happen. Just making an appearance is half the battle, really.

    5. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Don’t get the wine if you can’t function well. Ask at the bar if they have anything nonalcholic. Unless your culture is weird, there will be people abstaining for a variety of reasons and you can just blend in.

      Be friendly, smile, say hi. Be a bit reserved. You want people to think, oh I saw The Other Alice, she was pleasant.

    6. Veryanon*

      Go for 30 minutes, make sure you’re seen, and then get out of there. Don’t drink if you don’t want to.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      Re the alcohol: you don’t have to drink anything at all if you don’t want to. If anyone says anything, all you have to do is say cheerfully, “No thanks, I’m driving!” I never get to drink because I always drive myself and nobody ever questions this.

    9. cold tea*

      1) don’t drink alcohol. Think of it as a work event, where you want to be at your best.
      2) introduce yourself to people and network -ask what they do, how they do it etc. think of it as a way to learn more about your company.

  24. Sleepy*

    The small nonprofit I work for is hiring a new Executive Director. Pay is below industry standards and the org isn’t doing well financially so we don’t exactly have a big range of candidates to choose from.

    The top two:
    Bob has been a supporter of our org for many years and knows it well. Most of his career was spent at another org with a very similar mission. He has experience with nonprofit leadership but not at the ED level. It would be a big step up for him. However, he’s known and trusted by staff.

    Barbara has extensive Executive Director experience from a long career in multiple nonprofits, including nonprofits that were struggling financially which she turned around. However, she worked in a very different sector (eg rural llama habitat conservation while we do urban young llama training). It’s not clear that she understands our mission as deeply as Bob or how she would adapt to the new environment and sector. However, she showed through the interview that she was able to assess multiple aspects of o our nonprofit quickly and accurately in a way that Bob wasn’t necessarily able to.

    Anyone have experience hiring EDs and want to share thoughts on choosing between two very different strengths when you can’t have it all?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      So, coming from my experience in the non-profit world, Barbara has a red flag. Anyone who is jumping from multiple non-profits would raise an alarm, especially at executive positions. I would really, really investigate how she personally turned the previous non-profits around or is it all just a bunch of talk and other people did the work and she took credit. Because people who are that involved in leadership at a non-profit usually settle in and reap the benefits of their hard work. But if they are just full of buzz words, then they need to jump ship before things tumble. And if she is willing to come to a org that is paying below market rates, that sounds like someone running. (I’ve seen this exact scenario multiple times.)
      On the other hand, Bob is exactly the kind of rising leader that would be happy to take a below market wage. You know he is personally invested in the org, even if he doesn’t have a lot of outside experience.
      I’d choose Bob because he is the known entity. Even if he won’t blow you out of the park with innovative ideas, you know he is dedicated and will do everything he can to support the organization.

      2. Natalie*

        I don’t think this is remotely a given. There is a category of executive, including NFP executives, that thrive at revitalizing or repositioning organizations but don’t much care for the steady-as-she-goes phase. In a foundering NFP, that might be just what you need.

        I would probably reach out to people at her former organizations (particularly ones that have operated without her for a few years or more) and see how things actually went after she left. Did the changes she made stick? Are the organizations thriving? Your executive team or higher level management hopefully have some close relationships with some people in similar positions that can give them an honest impression. And be prepared to replace her again in a few years.

        1. AndersonDarling*

          Absolutely! I din’t mean to imply that this was a given, just a flag. But I will admit that I’ve seen an influx of bad players circulating in the non-profit sector so I’m overly cautious.

        2. Fikly*

          I’d look into Barbara, because she totally could be someone who thrives on coming into a mess and fixing it, then is uninterested in it once everything is working smoothly, and wants to move on to the next challenge. People like that can be immensely valuable! But you’d want to be sure that Barbara is one of those, so a really thorough reference check would be a good idea, I would think.

      3. NW Mossy*

        I think this draws out an important question – why is Barbara interested in this job? On the surface, she appears to have the experience and track record to command at least an industry-standard pay rate.

        One possible answer is what AndersonDarling describes – she’s not what she’s appears on the surface, and she’s willing to accept lower pay because she’s got baggage you can’t see yet.

        Another option is that she’s a turnaround artist who thrives on fixing a sinking ship, but gets bored once it’s floating along smoothly. I’m in the for-profit world, and there are a lot of higher-level leaders who build careers out of moving companies and sectors every 2-3 years doing exactly this. There’s a real market for bringing in a new person to make radical change who will then move on once that’s complete.

        The only way you’ll know, though, is to ask. Ask Barbara, from several angles and in different ways. Ask her references. Listen carefully to what you hear, and not just the words – the tone, the manner, and what’s going unsaid.

      4. fhqwhgads*

        It’s also possible Barbara is a fixer. Brought in specifically because of the financial trouble to turn things around, fix processes top down, and then go because it doesn’t need fixing anymore. Sort of….Mary Poppins-ing up the place. But in those cases, it’s not a surprise to anyone involved in the hiring that this is a specialty.
        I’d still probably go with Bob – because if they’re hiring someone they want to see there for 7+ years a Bob is best for that, but if it’s realllllllllly bad – like cleaning up a major mess from a predecessor – it might be the right sitch for a more of a fixer type for 2-3 years, and then a Bob afterward.

    2. Ali G*

      IME ability to do the hard parts of the job are more important than intimate knowledge of the mission. If Bob has a long history with the org (or one like it) he may be less inclined to make the big changes needed for the org to succeed. You need someone that will be able to see where improvements and possibly cuts need to be made and not get too wrapped up in history and emotions to get it done.
      I’ve recently lived through this. Our new ED was the third in 3 years and he is the first to really position this org to have a chance to succeed. The previous 2 were long-time in our sector and were OK with same old, same old, resistant to change and put the org in bad financial straights.
      I would go with Barbara based on your brief descriptions.

      1. Sleepy*

        Yes, I feel that there is a lot of wisdom to this. We have a lot of emotional baggage around the way things are currently done. I was offered the ED position myself but said no. I know that as a longtime employee, I emotionally would not be prepared to make changes that probably need to be made.

        Honestly, we couldn’t even change our logo without people freaking out, so that gives you an idea of how people are holding onto the Way Things Were.

    3. Eleanor Konik*

      Clarification question: Does Bob have reasonable ideas or plans on how to turn things around, or is he just “willing to step in and help.”

      1. Sleepy*

        His ideas are quite frankly stuff that we’ve already tried but have not quite gotten off the ground. I think a concerted effort and/or better leadership could make these ideas work better than they have in the past. But it’s not radical change, it’s “Let’s make a better plan at this thing we’re already doing.”

    4. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      I would choose Barbara for another interview for a deeper assessment

      – Several non-profits are not worrisome. We don’t stay that long in many non-profits, especially those charged with fundraising. Her experience with a variety of non-profits can mean a broader view of how non-profits can/should work, even in another sector. Rarely do ED’s move within the same service area/sector.

      – Agree that you should ask Barbara explicitly how she turned around financially challenged non-profits

      – She doesn’t need to know depth when she has the breadth to learn on the job. I didn’t know much about the non-profit I was an ED for but learned quickly with the help of staff and volunteers. I had leadership skills, from the military, as well as the length of time in non-profit. Staff, Board, and volunteers helped me succeed.

      – I recently left a non-profit that passed over a long-time Board member (small business owner) for ED and chose an ED with a long tenure in non-profit, with department director experience but not ED experience. She had some challenges but her detachment allowed her to objectively see the problems to fix. Like another poster said, will Bob have that objectivity and really tackle the problems? Will the staff ‘trust’ allow them to show their cards and allow Bob to see/fix the underbelly?

      – An ED with extensive experience in a variety of non-profits knows how to mitigate limiting factors to get into the job and start working. “She was able to assess multiple aspects of our nonprofit quickly and accurately” which means she’s more likely to get in and get it done. How does that compare with Bob’s assessment?

      I’m assuming your hiring committee provided her the financials, the 990’s, the strategic plan and other planning documents for the candidates to interview from? So how did they do with regards to those items? Did they present a 90-day or 6-mos plan? Do you have a rating matrix to compare/contrast their interviews? If you’re not sure – sadly for the candidates – do a second interview with a specific issue or topic – perhaps the financial challenges?

      1. Sleepy*

        Yeah. Hrm. Well. The hiring committee really isn’t doing anything. I’m the Interim ED and I don’t feel like hiring the new ED is really my job as I’m a bit out of my depth as it is, but yeah, if it weren’t for me definitely no one would have even posted a job by now. So there’s no rating matrix or anything. These kind of experiences make me drawn to Barbara…the board needs a serious shakeup.

    5. Bex*

      First, it sounds like you actually have two strong, viable candidates! It’s true that neither has everything you’re looking for, but I’ve seen plenty of ED searches that failed to produce any real contenders (one that I volunteer for is in the middle of an ED search right now, the hiring committee just decided to consider their first search failed and start over from scratch.)

      In this situation, I would ask each of them probing questions into their areas of weakness. Does Bob have a clear vision of how to turn around the finances? Tactical next steps and an implementable plan? Does Barbara understand how your sector is different and know how to translate her skills?

      If the place was a well-oiled machine that just needed a capable hand guiding it, I might lean towards Bob. But in this case I think I’d worry about him making a huge step up AND taking on a challenging financial situation, so I might lean towards Barbara. Particularly if her references were strong and she left places better than she found them!

    6. Jenny*

      We had exactly this choice, hired Barbara, she’s done a great job. Tackled some issues that Bob might have let slide, pushed to try new approaches, been a bit more daring.

    7. AnotherLibrarian*

      In both these cases, I would do very very through reference checks. As AndersonDarling IDs Barbara might be a serious problem, if you don’t carefully vet her. I work at a place that had a bad Barbara come in and five years later, people are still struggling to fix the huge mess she left and we are in worse shape as a result. Be careful! But if she is someone who thrives on fixing problems, she might be great for you.

  25. December Girl*

    Has anyone ever worked two part-time jobs instead of one full-time job?

    After over a year of leaving my last full-time job without a new one lined up (I know, I know) and never being able to land a new full-time job for some reason, I finally got a part-time job (2 days a week). The hourly rate is higher than my former full-time job, but being 2 days a week, of course my monthly take-home is significantly smaller.

    Recently I saw an ad for a part-time job, doing something similar to what I’m currently doing and have extensive experience in, and I’m thinking of applying. I don’t know the details yet, like how many days I’m expected to work, etc. but I’m hoping it can be 3 days a week, so I’ll end up working 5 days a week like I used to. With both salaries combined, my monthly take-home will come up to roughly my former salary or even a little higher.

    My other motivation for this is also so I get a change of scenery every couple of days. I tend to get bored and easily frustrated with people if I see them too often. And in my line of work (office management/recruitment) I deal with people a lot. So theoretically changing offices/colleagues every couple of days will prevent this from happening.

    Is this a dumb plan? Will it be more trouble than it’s worth? Some facts:

    1. The industries are completely different and non-competing. But I do plan to be totally transparent to Job 1 about Job 2 and vice-versa. (I’ll include Job 1 on my CV.)
    2. Job 1 actually gives real benefits like private medical and dental (I’m non-US so my health insurance is not tied to work; public healthcare is heavily subsidised by the government), and even pays my mobile phone bill.
    3. Job 1 offers flexi office hours, I get to work from home one day a week, plus there is never any overtime expected.
    4. From what I’ve gathered from the job ad, Job 2 will also provide private medical and dental benefits, and has flexi office hours and a work from home policy. As long as Job 2 lets me work 3 full days a week instead of, say, 5 days a week but for shorter hours, it won’t clash with Job 1 at all.

    Thanks in advance for your input.

    2. Daisy-dog*

      Sounds like a plan! As long as your current job doesn’t mind, then it’s perfect. I have seriously considered this option for myself because I completely agree on the change-of-scenery bit. However, being in the US and needing healthcare makes it tricky. Good luck!

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      My main concern was health insurance and benefits, but it sounds like you’ve got it covered.

      Assuming Job 2 let’s you work those three days it sounds pretty good to me!

    4. Myrin*

      I’m doing this, only with fewer overall hours!

      I work at a local inn’s kitchen on Sundays and holidays and as a shelf stocker at a drugstore (twice a week normally, thrice a week from the last week of November until New Year’s). I honestly love it and would be doing it for the rest of my life if I could be doing it for more hours and consequently more money (I’m also not too fond of the absurd amounts of stress the kitchen work brings with it during the summer, and the owners will be retiring in a couple of years anyway).

      I’ve been doing the kitchen work for four and a half years now and the stocker work for two; I originally started it to support myself during university and then at the start of writing my dissertation, and then when it became clear that I wouldn’t be getting a stipend no matter what, I had to get the second job (and I love it; people always herald me as “an intellectual” but I could be happily doing shelf stocking full-time). I’ve meanwhile stopped my doctoral studies and come 2020, I’ll be starting to job search for only one job, but that’s really only because I want more money (and to a lesser degree because I’d enjoy doing something at least related to my field).

      But if I could do it like you do, like, say, keep my stocking job on Wednesdays and Saturdays and do something related to my field on three other days, I’d do it in a heartbeat, mostly because of its relative flexibility and getting to do different stuff (I’m a pretty physical person in that I enjoy manual labour a lot whereas my academic field skews sedentary and I think having both would be a nice balance).

    5. Turtlewings*

      I worked two part-time jobs for a period of 8-9 months, almost 4 years ago now. It was exhausting and terrible and I literally have nightmares about having to do it again, but one of the jobs was retail, which I am very poorly suited for. I would literally go weeks without a single day off — I averaged one day a month where I wasn’t at either job, frequently got home from one job after midnight and reported to the other at dawn, and it was very hard to get my retail job to respect my commitment to the other job. I hated it and my performance in both jobs suffered from my exhaustion and stress; however, it kept the lights on and food in the fridge. You’re in a slightly different boat; both of these jobs sound better than either of the ones I had. It might work out a lot better for you!

      My advice:
      (1) Know in your head which job is going to be your priority if you have to choose. Do not tell the other job this.
      (2) Make S U R E it’s a schedule you can live with, i.e. will you be able to sleep a full night? Are you getting at least one day off a week?
      (3) Keep close track of what you’re getting paid when, so your bills stay covered. In my case the retail paycheck was so variable, based on how many hours I was getting, that I had some nasty surprises with bill due dates that I couldn’t meet.

      Good luck!

    6. Sleepy*

      Several of my coworkers do this because we can’t provide them with full time positions, unfortunately.

      I know many of them do end up wanting full-time jobs, but one recently confided that she thrives on the variety and would now reject a full-time job if offered.

      Definitely give it a try! Sounds like it’s a good fit for your personality.

    7. WorkingGirl*

      I worked 2 part time jobs for about 7 months, one was M-F 9-1, the other M-F 2-6 with occasional evenings and weekends for events. It becomes tough when you want to take time off, but I loved having involvement in two different industries!

    8. only acting normal*

      I know someone who has done this for years. Two *extremely* different professional jobs, 1 in an office (consultant systems analyst), 2 very much not (airline pilot).
      It can work, but you probably need some autonomy over your schedule.

    9. Princesa Zelda*

      A bit lower-level, but I have had good luck working 2 part-time jobs with complimentary schedules. I worked both at LocalLibrary as a circ and NationalGrocery as a closer in fresh foods for 18ish months. I worked 40-50 hours a week, but I rarely had a full day off. I was senior in NationalGrocery and we were understaffed, so I had the ability to be much more firm in staying a closer with set availability, to work around my 8-5 library job. I basically broke even; the library and NationalGrocery paid almost exactly the same, and I occasionally had to Uber between them. It was also pretty stressful trying to flip back and forth, and to not take the one job with me to the other. It was worth it in the long run, because it let me break into the library industry without too much trouble, and let me choose which job to keep when I went back to school this August.

  26. AndersonDarling*

    The letter today about handwriting reminded me of one of my big workplace peeves…the misguided idea that all women have good handwriting.
    I can’t tell you how many times someone has said, “You can do this because you have good handwriting.” and I stare back blankly because they have just exposed themselves as a misogynistic jerk. There is no possible interpretation that my handwriting is good. My handwriting looks like a 6 year old’s that is still learning which letters go above and below the lines. When someone suggest my handwriting is good, they are really saying, “you’re a girl and girls do the writing.”
    If you don’t want to take notes, just say that you don’t want to take notes (or sign holiday cards or whatever). Ugh. (Thank you for reading my venting.)

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      OMG, I haaaate this. I was once asked at my retail job to write something on a sign. I protested, citing my horrible handwriting. The owner insisted. Then it had to be re-done because my handwriting is truly terrible (though I have been told it’s just small). Same with writing on flipboards for my full-time job– I flat-out told my boss that if there are more than two of us in the room, I don’t write down notes.

    2. anon24*

      Ah yes, sexism is in handwriting too. My handwriting sucks and I get told that I write “like a man”. (Just to clarify, I’m not)

      *sigh*

    4. Elizabeth West*

      I hate this. I also have terrible handwriting and it gets worse as I go thanks to a bit of dyspraxia. Taking minutes is tough for me; I’d rather just transcribe a recording.

      Some of the best handwriting I’ve ever seen was done by a man, btw.

  27. Jan Levinson*

    I wrote in a few weeks ago about a creepy customer at work (he had told me I was “purty”, and when I didn’t respond, turned to me and said, “I SAID you were purty! You must have not heard me!”, essentially demanding a thank you).

    Anyway, he came in yesterday and made me even MORE uncomfortable. He came to pick up and order, walked to the front counter, leaned WAY over it so that he was less than a foot away from my face, and just stared at me (as a reminder, I don’t work at the front desk, but my coworker who does was at lunch, so I was covering.) After a few seconds, I asked if I could help him. He said “you sure can, little miss.” He told me he had an order to pick up, so I paged our warehouse to bring his order up, told him it would be just a moment, and went back to my regular desk (out of his view). He began calling over to my desk, saying “you’re not going to keep me company up here? I miss seeing you up here.” I told him no, but reiterated that our warehouse personnel would bring his order up shortly. I thought that would be the last of him.

    Several minutes later, a warehouse employee comes up with his order. From my desk, I hear him say to the warehouse employee, “can you send that beautiful lady back over here? I need to talk to her.” So, I’m forced to come back to the front desk, where he tells me, “okay little miss, can you tell me how much this gold llama statue I ordered costs?” I tell him the price, and he says, “you know what, I think I’ll take another one of these, actually. (I know he’s just lingering at this point, because he has already ordered 100 gold llama statues, and won’t need another one for quite some time). I comply though, and tell him I’ll be right back to enter his order in our system (again, I go back to my own desk to do that, to be out of his viewpoint). While I’m entering his order, he again calls to me from the front office and says, “you know, you are so kind/beautiful/helpful/compassionate/purty and all of that good stuff, you know that don’t you?” I don’t respond, and again call back to our warehouse to have them pull his new order. When the warehouse guy comes back up front, he offers to help the creeper carry his llama statues to his car. The creeper says, “oh, I don’t suppose the beautiful lady could help me instead?” The warehouse guy (thankfully!) says “no, that’s my job” and leads him out the door.

    The BAD part about all this is, is that this customer comes in at least once a week. I usually don’t have to deal with him because our front desk guy is already there to help him. However, he has given his notice, and his last day will be next Thursday. Before we hire someone new, I will likely have to man the front desk. It could take months to hire someone new. I just don’t know what to do to detract this guy. His company buys a lot of product from us, so I feel like I don’t have a lot of standing.

    1. Jan Levinson*

      Also, FWIW, this guy has mentioned before than his wife has a full-time caretaker (he is an older man), so that gives you some insight as to who he is as a person (a man who has a handicapped wife, and acts completely inappropriate towards other women).

      1. Fikly*

        The first part, having a handicapped wife, has nothing to do with the second part. Plenty of people in relationships with handicapped people do not act inappropriately, and plenty of people in relationships with non-handicapped people act very inappropriately.

        1. Jan Levinson*

          I understand that…I simply meant his awful behavior seems even worst when taken into account that he has a wife at home (who I assume, since she has a full time caretaker,) has no idea the way he is acting towards women.

          1. Fikly*

            I’m not sure what whether or not his wife knows about or condones his harassment of women has to do with how awful his harassment of women is?

    2. Jimming*

      That’s so gross. I don’t know how to deal with that except maybe to get someone else to help him? Even if it’s not their job they could run interference for you.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        Unfortunately, our office is small and pretty bare at most times. Yesterday, for instance, when I was helping this guy, there was no one there who would now how to do the customer service functions needed to help him. My manager would probably be willing, though, when she is in the office (about 50% of the time).

    3. Ama*

      It sounds like warehouse guy picked up on the gross vibe — would he be willing to back you up if you go to your boss? I do think you should at least mention his behavior so they have record that you complained already if he escalates — you can use the fact that you’ll be covering the front desk regularly as an excuse to express your concerns about this guy. (I mean ideally they’d at least tell you you can call someone else up to help him, but I get that the real world doesn’t work like that.)

      1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        You can loop in coworkers. When I was in retail I had a customer that was not all that dissimilar from this guy. No matter what I said (“Can you please stop, I’m uncomfortable”) or expressions I made, it didn’t matter. I needed to “ligthen up” or “he was just joking” or “what’s the matter, didn’t I like compliments”. So I let my male coworkers know that when he came in, I wasn’t going to help him. Luckily they all get it and would help him so I could escape to the back until it was all clear.

    4. DC*

      You should talk to your manager/HR. Customer or not, they still have a responsibility to keep you safe from sexual harassment.

      1. LessNosy*

        I agree with this. When I worked in advertising sales, I had a client like this. Constant lecherous comments and asking me for my personal information, etc. I was very young and super uncomfortable. My instinct was to tell my manager, which I did, and he was VERY understanding. I got to switch that client for another one with one of my male coworkers. He even crafted an excuse (“Bob now handles all llama-related accounts, so you will contact him going forward!”) Never heard from the guy again.

        Good luck. I remember reading your first post and feeling so creeped out for you. But please remember, you do NOT have to grin and bear it on this!

      2. A. D. Kay*

        What DC said. I’m willing to be that the man’s employer would be horrified to find out that he was harrassing an employee of another company.

      3. NW Mossy*

        My company’s harassment policy explicitly states that it provides protection for employees from harassment by people who aren’t company employees, like customers and vendors. The annual training we do also covers scenarios very much like this one to drive home the point.

        Speak up, please. Your company can and should intervene to help you here.

        1. cmcinnyc*

          Mine has the same explicit policy. A lot of creeps count on “the customer is always right” to behave in ways they would never get away with otherwise. Document times/dates, and ask the warehouse guy if he said anything about you or asked anything about you. And let the warehouse know the guy has been harassing you and you are documenting it. They can help look out for you. A lot of guys who will bravely slime all over a woman are instantly silenced by a guy saying, “That’s a gross way to talk about my coworker. Cut it out!”

      4. Wishing You Well*

        Yes, tell your boss and HR about this guy. Your company is legally required to stop this harassment (in the U.S.). Also, start documenting the incidents in a journal and keep it updated. I hope you won’t need the journal as evidence, but it’s better to have it if you do.
        Harassers are quite strategic in who they pick as victims. He probably doesn’t do this stuff in businesses where he’s not a big customer. You can and should tell him directly to stop calling you anything but your first name (or appropriate title) and to stop doing whatever he’s doing in the moment.
        For your safety, NEVER take packages out to his vehicle. Call someone else to do it. If the harasser has to wait, that’s too bad. (In fact, never leave the building with him in the area.) It’s time to gather your allies and defenses.
        I am sorry you’re going through this.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I agree also. Tell him directly to stop. Document. Report it to your manager.

          A former workplace of mine whose field personnel wore uniforms contracted with a uniform company that employed a creep like this. He constantly flirted with me and one of the consultants, asked us out, and was just gross in general. Another guy came on the route one day and we asked him, “Where’s Fergus?” After some reluctance, he told us that another client had complained about his behavior and they fired Fergus.

          This guy is a liability for his company. If your company lets him get away with harassing you after you report it, it’s a liability for them too.

      6. Bend & Snap*

        Yep. My PR agency fired a client for sexually harassing me when I was a junior employee. You need to alert your boss because they have to resolve it.

    5. You can't fire me; I don't work in this van*

      Can you ask a coworker that you trust to call the reception desk when he lingers with a white lie about how you are needed in the back office right away?

    6. Zona the Great*

      Can you really not say, “don’t lean in so close to me” or make a horribly disgusted face while taking a huge step back? Or “don’t make comments about my appearance”? Is that really going to cost your company? I loathe him so so much. I’m so sorry you are dealing with this.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        It is realistic to be concerned that it would cost Jan / Jan’s company if Jan pushes back. Checking with Jan’s manager will help Jan understand how much risk their is, whether her company would support her, or retaliate.

    7. Llellayena*

      Tell the company. You should not have to deal with this. Which is more expensive to the company: losing one person’s business or losing an employee, a lawsuit (sexual harassment), and public opinion (for not dealing with it)?

      1. irene adler*

        Given this is your only ‘icky’ customer, can’t your boss assist him? Or can’t someone else be asked to assist him? It’s just one customer. They should be able to find someone to wait on him to get you away from him.

        You should report this to your boss. Then have a way to notify your boss when Mr. ‘icky’ shows up so you can be relieved.

    9. Jan Levinson*

      Guys! I have a great update already. I just spoke to the salesperson, Mike, who is assigned to this customer’s account (he’s a great coworker) since he happened to be in the office. I asked him if he was familiar with the man (his name is Jack, btw). He said that he was, as Jack had been present many of times when he had visited the business, but didn’t know much about him on a personal level. I proceeded to tell him the issues I’d had when Jack had visited the office, and he was horrified on my behalf. Mike happens to have a great, working relationship with the owner of the company, Ben, and assured me that he would give Ben a call and make sure the company sent someone else to pick up their orders from hereon out (apparently it’s a pretty big company, and there are plenty of people who can pick up their orders instead.) He assured me that Ben is great guy, who would also be horrified at his creepy employee’s behavior. This was an easier fix than I thought!

      Really hopeful that I’ve seen the last of Jack.

      1. Massive Dynamic*

        Fantastic!!!! Good job, OP; that must be such a relief. I’m sorry you had to go through that – I’ve been there twice: once as a teen and once as a young woman and both times it was horrible but also both times it was perfectly stamped out by my male bosses who were absolutely horrified to find out what I was dealing with (and the teenage job – the bosses were all teens/young 20s too). Now that you’ve gone on record, if Jack ever comes back in asking for you -EXCUSE YOURSELF and do not go back out to deal with him.

      2. Shirley Keeldar*

        Well done, OP, for speaking up and picking a good ally! Way to defend yourself. Loud applause.

  28. Bunny Girl*

    Our company Christmas party is today. Late last night I also found out that my puppy is tall enough to get up on the counter and sample the treats that his mom made for said party. Oops. :)

    Push your treats back on the counter if you have long legged dogs, folks.

    2. Bostonian*

      Oh man, I hear that. I got a kitten this year, and she’s now big enough to jump up on the kitchen counter. Time to keep everything hidden away!

      Have fun at the Christmas party! My company doesn’t have one, but I never really enjoyed the one at my last job, so maybe no loss there!

    3. Peaches*

      When my husband and I first got a dog four years ago, it was during the holiday season. My mom sent us back home after Christmas with about 10 oreo cakeballs, wrapped in foil. We thought we had the cakeballs in a safe spot on the counter when we left our dog alone (she was only about 20 pounds at the time, and we didn’t even own barstools that would have been against our countertop at the time that she could have climbed). But alas, we got home one day to find foil ALL over the living room and kitchen floor, with no cakeballs to be found. Also a very guilty looking puppy. We freaked out thinking she was going to die, but luckily the vet assured us that oreos didn’t contain much real chocolate. The cakeballs were also doused in white chocolate, which apparently is less lethal to dogs than say, dark or milk chocolate. She ended up being fine, but to this day we STILL cannot believe she was able to reach to cakeballs from the counter. She, too, is a long legged pup. :)

      1. ThatGirl*

        It’s a specific substance in chocolate that’s dangerous – called theobromine. Dogs digest it very slowly so it can raise to toxic levels quickly. It’s not really present in white chocolate all; the concentration is higher the darker the chocolate or higher the cacao content. So while white chocolate isn’t great for the dog, it also doesn’t have theobromine in it.

        Also, chocolate rarely *kills* dogs, but it can certainly make them sick.

        1. Peaches*

          Yes, theobromine – I recall now hearing before that’s what it is.

          Definitely true on your last sentence. My husband’s dog growing up was a 12 pound yorkie. He ate about 90% of one of those giant Hershey’s bars (like, the ones much bigger than a king size!) and lived through it, although he was very sick for a few days.

    5. A Simple Narwhal*

      I hope there’s still enough to take the party! Or that it wasn’t a single item treat like a cake where a doggie sample would very much be noticed.

      I am eternally grateful that my pup doesn’t take food off the counter/coffee table. She’ll beg by getting real close and stare at you with big eyes but she won’t actually take something not offered. I have no idea where these good manners came from but I am very thankful for them.

      I’ll post a link to this amazing relevant comic below

      2. Bunny Girl*

        Haha nope. The recipe I used didn’t make a lot anyway. No matter. I am not even going to the party really because I have to go home to let him out for lunch. He just started doing this, he’s only a couple months old. So he will be trained out eventually.

    6. londonedit*

      Our family dog (RIP) was *terrible* for doing this! He was massive and could easily put his paws up on your shoulders, and he could reach the back of the kitchen counters with no problem at all. Once when we were all on a family holiday, my parents’ friends came to house/pet-sit, and even though we warned them a million times not to turn your back for even a second if there was food out in the kitchen, we still got a message a few days into the holiday saying ‘We didn’t think you REALLY meant it! I had a shepherd’s pie on the counter and only left the room for a minute, and he ate half of it!!’ Yup.

    7. Lora*

      Or put them in the microwave or oven…

      I have always had big dogs that could easily just lean over and take a big slurp any time they wanted, but the worst offender was a 150lb Newfie who moved like a friggin ninja-bear. Emergency vet clinic trip after she devoured a double batch of dark chocolate cupcakes with only a quiet crinkle of the final cupcake wrapper to alert me to her misdeeds…an overnight in the vet hospital and a lot of peroxide-induced vomiting later, she was fine and lived to counter-surf many bagels, chicken dinners and rice bowls and lived to a very reasonable age for a Newf.

    8. Wishing You Well*

      I made a pan of brownies for a school bake sale. The family cat walked across the ENTIRE LENGTH of the pan while it was cooling, leaving paw prints in the chocolate frosting. Maybe the warm frosting felt good.
      Yuck! What a waste!

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Oh my gosh that is too funny. Luckily my cat doesn’t jump up on the kitchen counter for whatever reason. My boyfriend and I just enjoyed the treats at home. My dog licks my face enough that I just don’t really mind. LoL

    9. Fikly*

      There was a vendor at my local farmer’s market (I miss them dearly, they moved cross country) that sold amazing brownies. They also had two MASSIVE dogs. I forget the breed, but giant.

      They would have a platter on their table with samples of all the different brownie varieties. One day, as they were setting up (so their backs were turned) one of the dogs barely raised his head up and just snarfed down the entire lot of samples. Boy did he get in trouble! (He lived to tell the tale, 200 pound dog versus not that much chocolate.)

    10. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I came home one day to find a very guilty looking bloodhound laying on the living room floor, with the Tupperware container that had held a batch of chocolate chip cookie bars on one side of her, and its rather chomped looking tattered lid on the other side of her. She was absolutely and completely motionless, with her head on her paws … except for her tail, which was wagging so fast you couldn’t hardly see it.

      The last time she got caught truly counter-surfing, I had some meat thawing on the counter. I got home, and housemate was like “Did you have a sausage thawing on the counter?” I said “… I had FIVE sausages thawing on the counter…” he goes “Well, I managed to wrestle Angua for the last one, but I don’t think you want it anymore.” (We ordered pizza.)

      It’s been a few years with no problems, but she is now going on twelve and has started regressing to bad puppy manners again; the other day my husband set down a bowl of ice cream on the coffee table while he arranged his blanket on the couch and turned back to find her merrily nose-deep slurping it up.

    11. Bluebell*

      Or short-legged dogs with long bodies and tongues. My very stretchy basset hound once took a huge bite out of a beautiful loaf of bread that I had baked for a special occasion. I cut out the middle section and pushed the two edges together!

    12. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

      LOL! I have owned two irish wolfhounds. Counter surfing is a hazard!

  29. CreativeNameHere*

    I apologize if this is something that’s asked a ton. Regarding bosses and wedding etiquette, is it okay to invite one’s boss(es) to a wedding? I’ve worked for a small company for just over a year, and while I’ve never met my two bosses (we all telecommute), we all get along really well and they’ve been promoting me up through the ranks, they’re extremely encouraging and supportive, and they’re overall good bosses who also get along well with their employees. I wanted to invite them because I think it would be great to have them there and actually get to meet them (we’re all around the same age) and their partners, and I also think it would be smart to show them that I value being part of the company as it grows and enjoy my position there. Is this a faux pas?

    1. Mockingjay*

      Unless your wedding reception is very small, you will not have the time to schmooze with your bosses. Ceremony, photos, cake cutting, toasts, first dance, etc. Imagine trying to talk to your boss while keeping an eye on Uncle Earl who’s already had a few and is getting LOUD.

      Instead, suggest organizing a quiet lunch or dinner for the three of you. I wouldn’t bring the partners just yet. Get to know them on a professional basis first.

    2. anon for now*

      Don’t do it.

      Inviting them to your wedding will just look weird. They are not your friends, they are your bosses. Asking them to your wedding does not in any was demonstrate your attachment to the company. It looks like you’re fishing for a gift.

      If you want to get to know them irl, invite them to something low-stakes, like coffee/tea. Something where you will have an opportunity to actually talk to them. Something that can be wrapped up in half an hour in case you don’t get along as well outside of work as you do at work.

    3. Daisy-dog*

      Yes, that would be a faux pas. Don’t invite them with the intent to meet them at your wedding. Weddings are hectic enough with pictures and toasts and cake and family. It’ll also come across as a strange attempt to get a gift from them.

    4. hermit crab*

      I wouldn’t do it in your case, for the reasons others are mentioning. My then-bosses (my direct manager and a project manager I did a lot of work for) did actually come to my wedding — but I invited them because I adored them and we were quite close (still are, even though we don’t work together anymore) and I wanted to include them in my celebration.

      1. Hi there*

        That sounds like my staff member’s attitude when she got married. I was at a table with several of her previous bosses, which was pretty fun. I was pals with most of them since we all work at the same university.

    5. Marny*

      It sounds like it would be a very uncomfortable setting to meet your bosses for the first time. I wouldn’t do it, and I’m guessing they’d be very surprised to receive the invitation and would feel a bit weird about it (I would).

    6. WellRed*

      Nooo! If you must invite coworkers to a wedding (and really, why would you), they should be coworkers you are close to, and not your boss. You haven’t even met these two.

    7. cheese please*

      As someone who recently planned a wedding and got married I understand the desire to invite people like your bosses. But in this situation please don’t do it. While you may very well be comfortable having them at your wedding, be aware that you will (hopefully!) be surrounded by people you know and love. Your bosses will be coming to the wedding knowing nobody (maybe not even each other?) and seeing you in person for the first time on your wedding day! That just seems like A LOT for a boss to meet an employee, and all that employee’s family and friends, on potentially the most important day of that employee’s life.

      If you want to get to meet them in person, use the excuse of having a new air-fryer wedding gift and invite them over for dinner with your new spouse if the commute is reasonable.

      Best of luck with wedding planning!

    8. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      I don’t think you should use your wedding as an opportunistic “way in” with bosses. Outside of other people’s claims that they don’t have the same exposure etc — it just seems to be a gross mingling of your personal life with your professional one. Are you a better employee because you’re married? (I was married, for 12 years, but now I’m divorced so I don’t know where I sit in the hierarchy now! /s.)

  30. Amber Rose*

    My job is funny because I have no official power or status, but I write all our policies and procedures, create all our documentation, train the managers and supervisors on their roles, and keep us in line with the law.

    I wish I could change my title from admin to Shadow Ruler, that would be sweet.

    My bonus was very good though, so it’s not like my hard work isn’t being recognized or anything. Which I’m gonna hopefully translate into a big raise, because the [censored] government is cutting Husband’s wages by 7% next April. I can hardly sleep at night sometimes, I’m so angry at everyone around me for voting this government in. It makes me sick to my stomach. Worse, because I’m sure most of my coworkers probably did vote for them. -_-

    It’s so hard to work with people you don’t respect and who played a role in your misery sometimes.

  31. Golden*

    Anyone know how to get ahold of someone’s CV/resume anonymously, or is this not ok to do?

    I’m hoping to nominate someone at my work for an award but their resume is part of the application package. I’d like to keep my identity as the nominator anonymous, because I don’t want them to think I’m trying to kiss their butt (they’re senior to me and have some pull in my company). I’m nominating them because they truly embody the qualities of the award requirements.

    They don’t have a LinkedIn, but I was thinking that their admin assistant might have access to it? The company is the one offering the award so surely they have access to the resume, maybe I can just leave it off the application and explain to them why I’m not including it? Any thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      I did this, or tried; I was open with HR about what I wanted, but they didn’t have the most recent resume, so I just asked the person without saying why (we have a long working relationship so they were slightly puzzled but willing). I think an admin assistant is a good idea, and they’ll probably enjoy being in on a fun secret. I would guess that you can’t really do without the resume as part of the package, though, so I’d definitely try to get it.

    2. J.B.*

      I would explain the complication to the assistant and ask advice. I don’t think you should try to get the resume yourself but see if the company has a process for dealing with things like this.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      You could also have the selection committee ask for it. It will give a bit of a heads up, but it could be – You’ve been nominated for this award! To complete your package we need your resume. Everything else is done.

      May not be ideal, but it does keep you anonymous and gives them the choice to provide their resume or not. Plus, if the nominee list isn’t provided for some reason, it will let them know someone values them even if they don’t win.

  32. stitchinthyme*

    So I have a cleaning service come and clean my house once every two weeks. (Yes, I know I’m really privileged and fortunate to be able to do this.) Since I figure that the people who actually do the work are probably not making a huge amount of money, I tip generously every visit, and sometime in December I leave them several hundred dollars as a thanks for all their hard work throughout the year.

    The past two years I have received a letter from the company stating that while tips and cash gifts are not required, they realize that some customers like to give them, and their policy is to pool all such gifts and distribute them evenly among all employees; therefore, customers are requested not to leave cash but to use checks payable to the company.

    I really dislike this (and yes, I have let the company know). For one thing, since they assign the same crew each time (unless they’re unavailable for whatever reason), I prefer that the people who actually do my house are the ones who get my gift. For another, I am a bit suspicious about whether the company really does distribute that money to the employees or whether they pocket it — they certainly could, if the checks are made out to the company. So I ignore the “policy” and leave cash, hoping that the crew will just keep it without turning it in to management. (I never see them, as they come when we’re at work, or else I’d try to say that directly to them…although I’m also a little leery about advising them to do something against policy that might jeopardize their jobs.)

    So – what would you do in this situation? Is there some solution I haven’t thought of to make sure the crew gets the cash I’m trying to give them? (I’ve thought of dispensing with companies and trying to hire someone privately, but I don’t want to have to deal with insurance or employment taxes or any of the other headaches of hiring an individual.)

    1. I am gonna make it through this year*

      I would keep giving cash. Like you said, if you make the check out to a person who isn’t the person you see, you have no idea what that other person is doing it and if the intended recipient got any of it.

      Assuming good faith on the company (which, sure), maybe they’re concerned that some employees won’t get tips and so want to make sure that everyone gets a year-end bonus. Except if they wanted that, they could, y’know, give the employees a bonus themselves instead of taking your bonus to do it for them.

      Cash is better. You know it’s going to the person you give it to. And if they decide to do something else with it, like sharing it around, that’s their decision.

    2. fposte*

      Another vote for cash. I did use one very small local service where I wrote a bigger check and let the owner figure out the distribution, since I didn’t have the same crew every time, but it sounds like you do.

    3. PlatypusOo*

      “Tip pooling” is illegal in my state and many others. Either way I’d just give the workers cash and keep on ignoring the company policy.

    4. T. Boone Pickens*

      Completely agree with I am gonna. I’d keep “bonusing?” in cash as that ensures it’s going to the people you want it to.

    5. Daisy-dog*

      You may be able to find an employee-owned company. I worked in office administration and had to find a cleaning service. Our budget was too low for the bigger companies, but I did find one that was just 2 women who owned the business and did the cleaning. It took a ton of research though and was not as ideal a situation for our company needs, just our budget.

      Though for the question at hand – I agree with everyone else, leave the cash.

    6. mreasy*

      I think that you’re right on that the policy is bad and questionable and that you’re already doing the best you can, which is giving cash. (Because even if the cleaners are handing some of it over to the company per the “policy,” at least they’re able to take out their fair share first.)

    7. Wishing You Well*

      Ignore the company’s suggestion. It’s too weird.
      Continue to give cash directly to your cleaners. It’s up to them to declare the tip (or not) to their employer.
      Thank you for being so generous to hard workers!

    8. Leslie Knope*

      Ugh, this is such a horrible policy! Is the crew always the same number of people? If so then you could leave a gift card for each of them – Target, Walmart, Local Grocery Store. They may feel less pressure from their company to submit it to the tip pool if it’s not actual cash.

    9. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I’d say keep giving cash, but be mindful that the staff may not be comfortable pocketing it if it is going to be pooled. Because pocketing tips intended for pooling is stealing from the company, which is grounds for termination.

      1. valentine*

        I would stop giving cash, for the same reason. The letter might just be general, but it could be that one person on your crew feels obliged to hand it in and declaring it as income might be a problem. They may also not feel comfortable turning down the cash themselves and in person.

      2. Arts Akimbo*

        That’s so awful! Especially since tip pooling is such a shady practice already. Catch-22. Can the client call it a holiday gift rather than a tip?

        1. Kat in VA*

          I would do just this and leave them a note so it’s clear.

          “This is your annual holiday gift from me, personally, to each member of this crew. Please understand this is a gift to you and not a tip. *insert nice language about how valued they are and what a great job they do*. Happy Holidays!”

    10. Academia Escapee*

      If you’re making the check out to the company, who’s to say the company isn’t keeping the money and not passing on the tip? Cash ensures that it at least gets into the proper hands. And you get credit from the recipient for your generosity.

    11. Jaid*

      “In March of 2018, the Fair Labor Standards Act was amended to clarify this issue. Employers that do not take a tip credit and pay employees the full minimum wage may establish a tip pool that includes back-of-house employees. However, employers that do take a tip credit must limit the tip pool to employees who customarily and regularly receive tips”.

      Dunno if that makes you feel better…

  33. Only Tech Person in Company*

    Anyone else a tech/data person reporting to a non tech person? It’s doubly frustrating to me because first, my managers simply don’t have expertise or even generalized knowledge about what I do. So not having any sort of mentor is hard, and they just don’t have any understanding of what goes into my work. And second, it’s doubly hard because I’m a woman. Both my boss and grandboss are men. You can probably guess where this is going: they underestimate my skills and try to mansplain my own work to me when they don’t know what they’re talking about. Sometimes I do really advanced, complicated work, and I don’t get any recognition for it.

    Sometimes I think I’d take a pay cut to be a part of an actual tech department. I almost surely would to work for a woman in tech.

    1. I am gonna make it through this year*

      I feel you. I have been there a few times. In all cases, it really really matters on how much the boss listens to you. I translate things from tech-into-English to them, I will explain anything at whatever level they want… but if they don’t care, they don’t care, and if they don’t think what you do is valuable, there’s limits to changing their minds.

    2. Jamie*

      I have always reported to someone non-technical and it’s frustrating. I also long to be part of a technical team sometimes, but I’ve carved out a niche as being a solo IT which is hard to break away from.

      We all have different experiences, but I’ve dealt with some sexism in the workplace but never mansplaining over my technical skills…in fact because they weren’t technical they trusted my expertise to the point where if I wasn’t sure and wanted to brainstorm with someone in the field to suss out my plan I’d have to fight to do that.

      You need to work for someone who gives you professional respect, be that a woman or a man.

    3. Brownie*

      All the sympathy. It gets so frustrating to try and explain that a one sentence non-technical manager request actually translates into days of complicated technical work, especially when said manager then starts going on and on about how it’s such a simple request and why is it taking so long. I’ve started making technical outlines showing how much time each sub-task takes, who I have to go to in order to get sub-tasks done, etc. so that when they start talking about it I can shove the outline at them and say “This is what it takes to do what you asked.” Having that piece of paper in front of them usually makes them back off because to question it would expose their lack of knowledge and somehow indicate weakness (no, I don’t get it, but that seems to be the mindset of the type of managers I run into who do this).

      1. J.B.*

        Yes, visualizing and mocking up can really help too. Sort of the equivalent of paper prototypes before beginning coding. Do you prefer this way or that way?

      2. I am gonna make it through this year*

        Oh, and one thing that helped once with a coworker who kept piling on requests was getting on a call with her to have her walk through some of the tricky details with me. She watched me do my work in real time and saw how a “quick request” was not quick at all, and that was me as an expert. A couple months ago, another coworker asked me to help train someone else on how to maintain something. I happily agreed. Then we had the training calls. Both the coworker and the person from the other department had NO IDEA how long something took, and that was something that even expertise is not gonna make too much faster. The other person ended up not taking it on; she’d had time in her schedule for being able to handle tiny additional tasks, not something that takes 3 days to make “minor changes”.

    4. J.B.*

      I was in almost that same situation, except that my direct boss wasn’t one of the ‘splainers. You won’t make complete headway but you could try very detailed updates for a while, showing some draft tables and asking *what* they want changed. Sometimes you can nudge people farther away from this behavior by satisfying their underlying questions – why it is being done way x or way y. Another thing might be to acquire some sort of certification to hold up. Not that you should have to but sometimes it helps.

    5. NW Mossy*

      There are pros and cons to both technical and non-technical managers, and one isn’t necessarily superior to the other – they’re just different.

      I’m a technical-expert manager myself, and I am by no means the ideal manager – the very things that you might love about having someone like me lead you can actually hold you back in your own development. As an example, one of my vulnerabilities is taking up too much space with my ideas. Being too “oh, and you can do this! and this!” crowds out my directs’ ideas and robs them of the experiences they need to hone their own judgment and solve problems independently. I have to be very conscious of that and pull back a LOT to make sure that they’ve got room to grow.

      On the flip side, reporting to someone who’s a non-expert can give you insight into other ways to get better. As an example, one of my colleagues is a career leader (20+ years managing) who just took over a new team. It’s only been a month and she’s already spotting behavioral issues that are holding people back, and she’s really effective in coaching people on that stuff. Their past managers overlooked and excused those behaviors in favor of cultivating technical expertise, but now, they’ll have someone who can really help them change.

      In the short term, it might help to pan back a bit and think about what your bosses are really good at. Are there non-technical things you can learn from them, like relationship-building and strategy? Are there technical peers who can give you the technical mentorship you need? Rather than having your bosses be all the things, working with them on specific topics and filling gaps with other relationships can work really well. It’s also a good way to build a network that supports you as you grow.

    6. Out of Retail*

      Hi, hi- yes!! Can we start a club?

      I’m lucky that my boss-types seem to trust me and don’t try to explain my work to me, but also they don’t even really know what it is that they want me to do! And when I say “this is what you need for the results you want” I get long clueless looks…and then have to explain the difference between a browser, a search engine, and windows file explorer.

      There was a woman in the IT department at my last (unfortunately toxic) job who I miss with all my heart and soul in those moments.

      1. Only Tech Person in Company*

        “also they don’t even really know what it is that they want me to do!”

        Exactly. A lot of the comments about thought I meant I was getting too many requests (and thank you for all the replies and support) but if anything it’s the opposite problem. There’s no tech leadership, so I either make a recommendation that goes nowhere, or I do something complex and it either doesn’t get used, or it does get used but I didn’t get the appreciation that I think I deserve. Which might make me sound like a baby, but as a woman in tech I know the underestimating of my skills is not all in my head.

        1. J.B.*

          Actually the complex and don’t get used is a really common problem when it comes to anything technical (including scientific) and decisionmakers. The best way to handle that is to understand the job steps someone is doing – like go interview and observe them – and build something that integrates into it. Iterative design is also really helpful. That could get you a little more visibility as well.

  34. Mary Whitney*

    Any advice on applying for jobs across the country? I’m primarily asking on behalf of my SO – he’s in law enforcement and has a student loan forgiveness program that requires him to continue working in public service (government, some nonprofits, and any type of law enforcement). No employment gaps are possible because his loan payment would jump to an amount we can’t afford if he’s unemployed. We’re both young professionals, though he’s coming up on 5 years of experience (in probation) and has his masters in justice studies. He’s definitely open to other public service and isn’t committed to law enforcement forever.

    We’re looking to move but I’m wondering how interviews work. I know for higher level jobs employers will fly you out for an interview (happens at my workplace all the time, anyway), but I doubt that’s the case at our level. Can you insist on only doing video/phone interviews? My concern is that he’ll just be out of the running unless he drops money on plane tickets.

    1. Another JD*

      Check his particular program’s terms. If he’s unemployed, there’s usually a period of deferment.

    2. WellRed*

      I’d make darn sure he’s in a program that actually will forgive the loans. My understanding is most people find out after the fact that they don’t qualify, for a whole host of reasons.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      In my experience, some employers will fly you out for an interview at any level. It seems to depend more on how hard-to-fill the position is rather than the level (though higher-level jobs tend to be harder to fill).

  35. Great Beyond*

    I’m frustrated at work because they keep commenting on how quiet I am, yet when I talk no one listens. My boss pulled me into a meeting about it, but I wasn’t sure what to say. They talk down to me and I feel like a child. Any advice?

    1. AMD*

      As a fellow quiet person, are they saying you’re socially quiet, or that you’re not, like, giving enough input in meetings or communicating important info?

      1. Great Beyond*

        Just my personality. I’m a hard worker and contribute. I just feel like they’re dismissive of me. I’m the only younger female on the team.

        1. CheeryO*

          This is hard to give advice on without knowing the exact dynamic and what they want from you, but as someone who was pulled into a meeting and told to “rattle my chains more” because I wasn’t acting outgoing like I did in my interview, I totally sympathize. Something you could work on is just making yourself a teeny bit more visible around the office. Get to meetings a couple minutes early and talk to whoever gets there next, make some extra trips to the kitchen/coffee pot just to see what’s going on, go to someone’s desk instead of emailing/IMing them, etc. Just being seen and having a friendly smile/”how are ya?” for people should really be enough in most situations.

    2. fposte*

      Did your boss give you an idea about a specific concern? Was she worried you were unhappy (which it sounds like you are, so maybe she’s got a point) or seeking you to change something?

      1. Great Beyond*

        She didnt say. She just asked how I was. I have a sick kid and I was getting sick, so lack of sleep, illness, etc. I didnt think I was acting differently.

        1. fposte*

          It sounds like you’re having a tough time and that your boss has noticed that. That’s not automatically a bad thing, and sometimes it’s a good move to be candid (“Bettina’s got the gloops so we haven’t been sleeping at home; I appreciate the concern and I think everything will be back on track next week when she’s back in school”). But once you and the kid are better and you get enough sleep, do you still feel dismissed at the job? Because if so that might be worth talking to your manager about as a freestanding issue.

  36. The Only Reward for a Job Well Done Is More Work*

    My Manager promoted me this year (I’ve been with the company around 15 years). Along with a new title and new responsibilities, I was supposed to receive a bi-annual stipend (instead of a raise), totaling a fair chunk of change. Two days before people with this position/role (under 10 employees total in a large company) were supposed to receive this stipend, we received an email from our manager stating that the Company was reviewing the position/role as well as the stipend.

    What recourse do we have? I don’t think any of the six received paperwork from HR acknowledging the stipend. Do we have an obligation to do all the new work responsibilities if we have no guarantee of being compensated for the extra work?

    1. Havarti*

      Wow, that stinks. This is a tough position because if you don’t do the new work responsibilities, they’ll likely use it as an excuse to deny you the money. How long is this review supposed to take? I would ask for clarification on the timeline of this review process. Then apply the Sheelzebub Principle: if nothing changes with your situation (more work, no raise/stipend), how long are you willing to put up with it? Take a look at your finances – if you needed to quit, could you? Consider your mental/physical health – would you be in danger of burning out with the new workload? It’s one thing if we’re talking about a month and another if it’ll take a year to make their decision. You’ve been there 15 years so presumably it’s been a decent place. Has management changed recently? Any rumors about budget issues?

    2. lasslisa*

      Ask your manager how long the review will be and what the new timeline is for you starting the new role. They didn’t say the stipend only is under review, they said the whole role is, so to me that could be interpreted to say you don’t have the new role until it’s been reviewed.

    3. Flyleaf*

      Start looking for a new job. It seems that the company has either financial problems or trouble following through on its commitments. In either case it’s not a good sign. Best to look elsewhere for an employer that treats you well.

  37. The Other Dawn*

    I’d like to hear from managers that have managers as direct reports.

    I was talking with my boss in a on-on-one yesterday and we were talking about the performance review process. Previously we were using Word docs (I’m somewhat new still and haven’t seen these) and we’re now on a system that’s part of the payroll vendor we use. We haven’t seen the annual performance review factors yet, so we don’t know if what we talked about is actually part of that or not.

    As we talked about my goals for the next quarter, she said, “OK so we have some good goals, but how do we assess someone’s management performance? The soft stuff.” Since my direct report is a manager, and all of my boss’s direct reports are managers, we always look at things like their ability to share knowledge, be diplomatic, not shy away from confrontation or difficult/awkward conversations, be approachable, etc. We know what we generally look for when considering if someone is a good manager, but how do you translate that into the performance review? Do you do 360 reviews? Are there specific factors you use within the review? Or do you just kind of observe and summarize as part of the overall comments? Are there specific things you’re looking for?

    1. Process Geek*

      The leadership in my large department (those who report to the VP) jointly created a “leadership promise.” It lists some high level behaviors for the leadership. That “leadership promise” is a goal for every manager in our department. We are measured on that goal, receiving specific behavior feedback. We use a lot of 360 feedback, but that is challenging on small teams.

  38. Stephanie*

    How have people mentioned to higher ups that they need more people on their teams? We’re understaffed on my team and it’s starting to get a bit overwhelming (like to the point where I wince when a coworker takes vacation). I’m able to handle the work mostly, but I don’t know how sustainable it is (I often have conflicting meetings).

    1. Havarti*

      Is your boss a decent person? Do you have meetings where you go over the status of your stuff? That would be a great time to say you need another person because XYZ. Otherwise ask for a meeting. Be prepared to go over who is currently assigned to do what. Can the company/dept. afford to hire another person?

    2. Lora*

      Pretty much just like that. “I’m currently working on X, Y and Z. John is working on A, B and C. If you also want our group to handle D, E and F then we need another person, even if it’s contract to hire. We cannot take on any more given our current deadlines and what we’ve already committed to.” At LastJob I said, the only way this has been working at all is due to the heroic efforts of Tech1 and Tech2. Each has been here two years and now can get a better job offer somewhere else with their experience, you cannot rely on them to keep putting in heroic efforts when somewhere else will pay them the same or better for a normal workweek; in addition, long double shifts three days in a row is contributing to your error rate and that is A Problem.

      Sometimes they told me, no you have to Make It Happen anyway. Sometimes they just shuffled around priorities and projects. Sometimes we got more people. Most of the time they shuffled around priorities. The Make It Happen anyway responders typically didn’t last in the job…

    3. Process Geek*

      We’re in the process of trying to get me an additional team member. My organization is working our way out of a financial hole and there is a high level scrutiny on any additional spending. Here’s what we are doing:
      1. Not allowing me to work tons of overtime, as that isn’t sustainable. I have explicit instructions from my manager (and backing when it gets hard) to let people know that I don’t have capacity to complete their request until (time frame).
      2. Being very explicit about the constraints with everyone who asks for my time. I’m clear that I would love to add support for the teapot painters, but because of the demands on my time, I can’t do that for 6 months. My manager calls this “making them feel the pain.”
      3. When people complain or push back, I ask them to please put the complaint in writing. I explain that I am building a case to expand my team, so this will help me get what I need to do what they are asking.
      4. I document thoroughly every time I can’t meet a requested timeline.

      Good luck!

    4. Kathenus*

      I’ve created spreadsheets that document the staffing level we have, tasks/duties and how long they take and/or # people per/day needed for appropriate staffing and show if there is a deficit of staffing (remember to deduct things like holidays/vacation time from the staffing level to show a realistic assessment). Then I’ve shown the staffing that I’m requesting and how it would fill the deficit, and/or how it would allow us to take on additional projects or duties. I’ve done this twice in the past 5 years and to my great surprise gotten the staffing requested both times. Having the data that clearly shows that we can’t cover the work with existing staffing is a powerful argument.

  39. LessNosy*

    So I brought up my case for a raise this year to my boss (salary market research, responsibilities increasing by 30%, etc.). Things have been a little contentious with me and her for a couple of weeks because I am majorly burned out, back to working 11-12 hour days every day and working during the weekends, and I have no support or help from her or anyone else.

    I was told the only way I can get a raise is to go up a job band and we would have to review the job bands to see if I meet the requirements for the next one (worth noting that these job bands are NOT published anywhere publicly).

    But then she said, “And we all have increased workloads right now. The reason for increased workloads is for personal growth and development.” I had to stop myself from laughing. Exsqueeze me?! Basically, I should be thanking YOU for the growth opportunity…?? This company wants us to get blood from a stone every day, and doesn’t care if we work ourselves to death. I had to put my job search on hold to put in extra hours (that I don’t get paid for because I’m salaried exempt) but it was still on my radar. Now, it’s time to take it back up and really kick it up a notch. I have been screaming for help for months, drowning in work, and she knows it (I have posted about it before on the open threads). But don’t sit here and p*ss down my leg and tell me it’s raining. Increased workloads are for personal growth?! *insert Jlaw “ok + thumbs up” gif here*

    I am already fantasizing about giving my 2 weeks notice and saying that I took a new job for personal growth and development.

    1. Havarti*

      LOL! “It builds character!” I love it. Yes, please start job hunting seriously. This is a dumpster fire. Good luck!

      1. LessNosy*

        At least I got a good laugh!! I have been enduring the dumpster fire for five years. I got a nice Amazon gift card for my 5 year anniversary and bought an air fryer with it. I call it my “pain and suffering air fryer.” I might have to change it to my “character building air fryer” :)

        2. Kathenus*

          I have a magnet I got during a really bad career situation that says Uh Oh! Another Character Building Experience! It seriously was like a stress-relieving touchstone for a while, and I still pull it out from time to time when needed.

      1. Auntie Social*

        “The reason for increased workloads is that you’re too cheap to hire someone else. I’ve been working 70 hour weeks and you’re going to have to replace me with two people.”

        1. LessNosy*

          Exactly. As bad as it sounds, I can’t wait to see what happens when they realize that while looking for a replacement. I’ve been telling them we need more people in our department. Maybe then they’ll believe me :)

      2. LessNosy*

        100% this! When I told my best work friend (who is suffering just as much as I am), that was literally her comment.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Start applying elsewhere. I don’t think there is a long term potential to grow in this company.

    4. Observer*

      Is your manager taking her cues from Steph Korey (Google “away ceo verge”)

      From the article that broke the story

      The day before Valentine’s Day, Korey decided she was going to stop the team from taking any more time off. In a series of Slack messages that began at 3AM, she said, “I know this group is hungry for career development opportunities, and in an effort to support you in developing your skills, I am going to help you learn the career skill of accountability. To hold you accountable…no more [paid time off] or [work from home] requests will be considered from the 6 of you…I hope everyone in this group appreciates the thoughtfulness I’ve put into creating this career development opportunity and that you’re all excited to operate consistently with our core values.”

      (The bolding was in the original.)

  40. A. Ham*

    My husband is miserable at his job and has been for almost a year. He has made the decision to not renew after his current muli-year contract is up in the spring. This is absolutely the right decision and I 150% support it. Of course even though we both know this is the right decision, he still has a lot of anxiety about this. I’m a little more relaxed about it because a) even though I am well aware that this could affect us financially, I am way more concerned about his happiness and b) I have done the job search/unemployed thing way more often than he has and so can jump in that hole with him because I know the way out (hat tip West Wing).
    Which brings me to my next point: he has been with his current company, in various roles and locations for 15 years. He started as an intern his senior year of college. He has, frankly, never had to do a serious job search or even a non-internal interview. On top of that, he is interested in continuing to do the type of work he does, but get out of his specific industry. (Like moving from teapot design to coffee pot design- the skills are definitely transferable, but he has no experience with coffee). So, he is worried about finding the right job, he is worried about changing industries, he is worried about losing pay and benefits like vacation time (after being at the same place for so long, both are pretty good) when he switches to something new, and he is worried about the possibility of being unemployed if he doesn’t find something before his contract is up. So, suffice it to say, he has a LOT on his mind lately.
    I am looking for anyone out there that has gone through a job change like this and has advice or words of encouragement for him. And also if anyone has been the spouse of someone in a similar job search and has advice on how to best support him. I feel like my chill approach and “it will be ok” is not necessarily what he wants/needs to hear right now. (Although I have already been helping him update his resume and search for opportunities).

    Also- how do head hunters/recruiters work? Is that something that only goes one way, or can HE seek THEM out?

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      I do recruiting full time and yes, your husband can absolutely reach out to get the ball rolling. I would encourage him to research which recruiters focus on the industry he wishes to stay in and to make sure he asks them some industry specific questions to make sure they know what they’re talking about. This is an ideal time for him to reach out as he’s still employed but knows he’s ready for a change.

    3. Nicki Name*

      It varies from industry to industry. If his industry happens to be tech, then yes, recruiters definitely want to hear from him!

  41. Sarah*

    Networking question
    A job was recently posted, and through work, I have a connection to the person who previously filled that role. When she left, she offered her personal gmail address in a big email to her contacts. Can I email her from my personal email with questions about the job since I don’t want to email her via my work email? She’s not on LinkedIn.

  42. Holiday Basket*

    So our office have been receiving baskets of goodies. Most of them named toward the owners.
    A basket was addressed for staff, and one of the owners had the nerve to take it home. How greedy can you get? lol They own this business and have the biggest paycheques around here and still found it ok to take home the $50 gift that was supposedly for everybody.
    To the suppliers / contractors who have been sending this- I hope they also know that we, the ordinary employees here, is also an important part of the business.

    1. Havarti*

      Wow, that is terrible! It always seems it’s the people who make more money that are more willing to take anything not nailed down to the floor. I guess that’s why they have more money… Good people know who really makes the work happen in a company and it isn’t the thief.

    2. Leslie Knope*

      My boss used to do this – he would take the gift baskets and re-gift them to other people. They were addressed to the whole company, but what could you do if he just swooped and took them? The office manager started divvying up the gifts as soon as they would come in. She got sandwich bags and would portion out cookies, chocolates, and all the edibles. All the promotional mugs and things like that would immediately be washed and put away in the break room. She would leave your baggie with your goodies on your desk with a sticky note with who had sent them. The boss would swing by at the end of the day and see an empty gift basket and a ziplock bag with his name on it – the look on his face was priceless! He laughed about being out-maneuvered!

    3. Elizabeth West*

      A vendor at OldExjob would bring a cooler of little ice cream cups every year. The bosses always put it out in the break room for the shop personnel, since the office got so! much! stuff! at the holidays and they rarely had a crack at it. I thought that was fair, even though it usually meant I didn’t get one.

      We liked the dude who brought a giant ham best; everybody got sandwiches.

    4. Holiday Basket*

      I should not be surprised with the greediness though, a lot of people here are underpaid too. I’m here for almost a decade and I’ve gotten a raise twice, for a total of $3k. So from when I started, to now, my hard work was only worth 3k more.

  43. EvilQueenRegina*

    We have all had a reminder to sign up to bring something for a potluck next week. I have so far resisted the temptation to add “cheap ass rolls” to the list.

    (Although to my knowledge no one reads AAM here so the reference would be lost.)

    1. SomebodyElse*

      hahaha!

      If you hear someone guffawing you’ll know that you do have some closet AAM readers nearby.

      1. Kat in VA*

        Oddly enough, there’s a post right here in this open thread where the situation is specific enough that I could SWEAR it was written by someone who works at the husband’s office. (It’s a crummy situation so I’m not going to clarify.)

    3. mreasy*

      We had Kings Hawaiian at my in-laws’ Thanksgiving and I busted out laughing when I saw them and just…couldn’t begin to explain!

      1. cmcinnyc*

        At my supermarket the King Hawaiian rolls are in a display right near the entrance and I’ve been grinning on my way in ever since that letter! Bless you, easily offended nincompoop! You have made my shopping chore better!

      2. Free Meerkats*

        I was going to tell this story in last week’s Open Thread, but was out of the office.

        We had our work pot-luck last week and sign up for and I brought – Hawaiian sweet rolls.

        Sure enough, even though I was the only one who signed up for rolls, someone brought the cheap-ass rolls. I did excuse myself for a few minutes to wipe away the tears (of laughter), then returned and enjoyed the food and camaraderie.

    4. Wishing You Well*

      Please clue the rest of us in! Would love to read the original post!
      (Control F isn’t doing it for me.)

      3. Elenna*

        Letter #2 in the Nov 22nd post called “coworkers say we shouldn’t attend a work party, I feel insulted by my new job, and more”.

        I’ll try to add a link in my next reply.

  44. Quiltrrr*

    A job that I applied to and received an in-person interview for sent me an email saying that they were pursuing other applicants. This was in November.

    Now, I see the position was re-posted last week. Should I re-apply, or figure it’s a no-go for me?

    1. Cleopatra XV*

      Well I think that they would have contacted you if they thought that your profile was adequate for the job. Maybe they did not know how to tell you this, so they saifd that they will pursue with other applicants.

      In all cases, I think that there is nothing to lose if you re-apply !

    2. Diana*

      Nah. They rejected you for the job only a few weeks ago. Nothing has changed significantly in your experience or skill set in a few short weeks. Don’t re-apply. Good luck with the next interview process!

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      There is nothing to lose by re-applying, in case they changed their mind but were too proud to say so, but don’t hang your hopes on it.

      1. theguvnah*

        strong disagree. there is a lot to lose, like looking woefully out of touch, and putting you out of the running for any future positions that might arise as a result.
        Do not reapply. It sucks, but they don’t want to hire you.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      You actually had an interview? < Don’t reapply.

      No interview or phone screen? < You can try, but don’t get your hopes up.

  45. Cleopatra XV*

    Hi Guys,

    I would love to have your feedback on the following: I just received an offer today from a good company, which I would like to accept. They want me to start working for them mid-March (in the country where I live, there is the rule of 3 month notice, which is also in my current contract. And even this new company where I’ll be soon working, it has a mandatory 4 month notice policy…). My problem is that I was supposed to sign a mortgage loan before end of December. However, my bank is now saying that the sign off would probably take place mid January.

    I can definitely not resign before signing the mortgage loan, as not being in a notice period is one of the conditions for obtaining it.

    This means that I need to wait to mid January to resign, and if you add the 3 month notice, it will lead us to mid April…

    This new company are really keen on having me start mid March.

    Is it too unreasonable if I tell them that I cannot resign before mid-January?

    Thanks for any insight !!!!!

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Can you tell them that you’re about to sign a mortgage and can’t give notice until after then? They may want you to start in March but if you told them about your extenuating circumstances they may be more willing to wait.

      Also is there any way you can ask the bank to expedite the loan process? It seems nuts that they’re delaying things a month.

    3. Leslie Knope*

      I would push back on the bank first – is there someone out of town who the schedule relies on? Who else has authority to help the situation? Does it still count if you weren’t in the notice period during the original timeline that was promised (can it be documented and worked around)?

      If that fails, then go to the new company and let them know you did what you could to stick to the original schedule, but were unsuccessful with the bank. Let them know you wouldn’t ask if it was important (this is definitely important!). This is just a situation where the timing is particularly bad, but hopefully the new company is understanding. If they’re not, then it will tell you quite a bit about them.

    4. Venus*

      Can you talk to your current workplace to say that you intend to leave in March but won’t officially be resigning until mid-Jan? You want to give them three months’ notice, but only file the paperwork after a month.

      1. Cleopatra XV*

        This is what I think I will be doing! Will get back to them tomorrow.

        Thanks for all the comentators :)

  46. Madame Zeroni*

    So the owner of our company closed our offices early the day before Thanksgiving. We closed at 3 pm instead of our normal 5 pm close. We were told at 2:50 we would be closing early. Fast forward to this week when we had to review our timesheets and the owner used my PTO for those two hours. Other people did not get paid. I assume they did not have PTO to cover these hours. We are paid hourly employees so it’s not a matter of legality, more of a shitty thing my employer is doing. Any advice on how to approach this if we close early on Christmas Eve?

    1. Cleopatra XV*

      I think that you need to be honest with your employer and to tell him that it was not clear that closing 2 hours earlier would need to be covered by PTOs.

      However, my company for instance, they close the whole week between Christmas and New Year, and they cover it by PTOs (I live in a country where we have lots of PTOs, so this is not shocking). BUT, we are informed of this a year in advance.

      So unless he informed you about this policy way in advance, I think that you need to address this issue with him, saying that all employees were surprised (if this is true) by the PTO coverage/less pay thing, and to ask him if he is going to do the same thing for Christmas.

    2. Jamie*

      I would ask if you will be closing early and if so, could you make up the time in the rest of the pay period to avoid losing PTO. It’s a reasonable question.

  47. LawLizard*

    Hi all, I’m a daily reader and sometimes anonymous commenter here.
    I’m a third year law student getting ready to graduate in May and sit for the bar in July and I’m starting to realize that I…. don’t want to be a lawyer.

    I’ve loved my time in law school and love learning about the law but when it comes to practicing in clinics or working for attorneys, I just don’t know if I can handle the stress or pressure. I’m not sure if it’s my own insecurity or if I’ve made a huge mistake in going to law school but I’m scared for what comes next. My GPA is good, and I’m at a big state university with a good legal reputation, and I have great references, but I feel the imposter syndrome creeping in and telling me I may never actually be successful and/or happy in this field.

    I don’t really know what kind of advice I’m looking for here, I guess if anyone either practicing, or who has a JD and didn’t take the bar, or is barred and not practicing has any advice or reassurance, I would appreciate it.

    1. Put your talent in your work, your genius your life*

      What would you want to do as lawyer — there’s a wide range of jobs on the other side of the bar.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Not everyone with a law degree practices law. I have a good friend who went to law school for employment law, and while she did practice for a few years, her ultimate goal was to work in HR, which she’s now doing.

      That said – there are a huge number of law firms and types of law to practice out there, and they’re not all high-stress or high pressure. And you can do legal-related work in non-law offices, such as various types of compliance.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I know lawyers that worked for a few years in practices and then became General Counsels for companies. Maybe that would be something more to your interests?

    4. CTT*

      FWIW, I think a lot of people, myself included, feel very insecure at this stage of law school, because theoretically in a year you’ll be a lawyer and that’s a lot to think about . This time two years ago I was kind of a wreck and second-guessing myself because I felt pushed to the limit with schoolwork and law review, how could I deal with actual work where people are supposed to trust me as a lawyer??? And now I am a lawyer, and I definitely am stressed, but that’s a lot of life, and I can’t say that I would be any less stressed if I had gone into another field (or even stayed in my pre-lawyer role as a paralegal).

      If your thoughts are more specific than “what if I’m stressed/what if I’m bad at it,” then consider talking with a professor you have a good connection with about deferring taking the bar and some potential non-lawyering options. But from what you’ve written here, I think this is on the imposter syndrome side of things, for understandable reasons.

    5. CatCat*

      Certain areas are more stressful and more high pressure than others. What is it that you like with the law? What is it that you don’t like about the clinics?

      The legal field is a vast sea so I’d be surprised if you could not find a niche that might be suitable. It’s early in the game for you. I mean, if you hated the law or something, that would be one thing, but you love it. So I think there’s something out there for you.

    6. CheeryO*

      You could always get a government job! We have environmental attorneys at my state agency, and while their jobs can be a little stressful at times, I have to imagine that it’s nothing like private practice. They do a steady 40 hours/week and don’t take work home with them, and they rarely have to take matters past discovery and/or mediation. Plus great benefits – lots of vacation time, pension, etc.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I know a federal agent who went through law school & passed the bar and has found it very useful at his agency. His specific corner of the world enforces regulations…and because of his law background, when he delivers a case to prosecution they know all the ends are tied up neatly the first time.

    7. Anonymous Liz*

      Are you interested in contracts? There are a lot of jobs in higher education in contract negotiation that don’t require you to be an attorney. I’ve seen a lot of JDs work in these positions.

    8. automaticdoor*

      Hi! So, I have a JD from a fancy law school, but I am not barred and don’t plan to take the bar. I work in policy/lobbying in DC. I love it and know I would have been really unhappy as a lawyer (I interned for a county court and a firm and hated both). You are not trapped! Have you had any internships outside traditional law stuff? If you want to email me, I can be found at doorautomatica at gmail dot com.

    10. Lemon Squeezy*

      IANAL, but I work at absurdly large Arkansas based retailer, and we have hella lawyers. They’re necessary in large companies for compliance, for sure, so don’t feel like you’re tied to only one path. The law affects literally every business. Is there something you see yourself really enjoying doing, or a particular component that you really dug? That might be an arena to research into.

    11. pancakes*

      Have you done any clinic work in school? I was pretty big on it, and participated in a clinic during all of my 2nd year and returned as a research assistant to the prof. leading it in my 3rd year. It was stressful, but I loved the work, but ultimately decided I didn’t want to do that particular thing full-time after graduation. My work is in a different area of law. There can be a big, big difference in stress levels between various fields — having a client depending on you to get them out of prison or a terrible marriage, for example, can be rather more stressful than working on a credit default swap transaction as part of a team of 30 other lawyers. It can be stressful in an entirely different way, of course, to feel that one’s work is tedious, or pointless, or purely revenue-generating. So much depends on what your priorities are, and those may change over time. If you have the chance to participate in a clinic before you graduate, try it, even if it seems scary. Once you’re out of school it’s much more difficult to be experimental.

      I suppose my other advice is, if you think there’s even a small chance you will practice law after graduating, take the bar exam rather than putting it off. I can’t imagine prepping for it after being out of a school for a long while. Use those studying muscles while they’re still at peak capacity.

    12. RabbitRabbit*

      Not a lawyer, but there are plenty of lawyers working in the not-for-profit hospital that I work in. They work in departments like Legal (duh), Compliance, contracts, all kinds of places. I have a friend with a JD who is not barred, and he works for a Very Large Insurance Company. There’s plenty of opportunities for you out there.

    13. Indy Dem*

      I went to school with a divorce lawyer who actually became a marriage counselor/mediator because she was tired of lawyering.

    14. Elizabeth West*

      This happened to me, when I was in graduate school for education. I realized about three years in that I did NOT want to be a high school teacher, nor did I want to get a Ph.D to teach in college. Plus, the program director didn’t tell me I’d actually need the master’s in my subject according to state law, which the school did not offer. I ended up dropping out of the program, but I really wish I’d finished it. I could have used a master’s in education to get into corporate training.

      I highly recommend getting it. You have a lot of options.

    15. SMH RN*

      Not a lawyer but faced a similar problem when I finished my nursing degree, started working rural acute care/ER and realized I truly hated it. Fortunately nursing is a broad field and I found an a job working with seniors that I love. My understanding is that law might be able to work the same way…you might be able to find a niche you enjoy. And much as I hated ER it was great experience skills wise

    16. nym*

      I work in public health, and we have a bunch of lawyers at my organization who do not practice law. Instead they do legal research, which might be something you would enjoy if you love learning about the law?

      Things like “What laws are in place in these ten jurisdictions about food inspection? How safe is the food in each jurisdiction?” and “if my state/city/county wanted to pass laws about tattooing, what are some good examples?”

      We also have lawyers who are on the public health program/policy side, nothing to do with the law at all. We find that the analytical thinking skills they develop in law school can be applied easily to a broad range of topics.

  48. EnfysNest*

    So, at our department-wide holiday party this week, I was in conversation with two recently retired previous coworkers and we were joined by a guy we’ll call Buck, who is our main vehicle maintenance guy. I typically interact with Buck only briefly maybe once or twice a month, so I’m familiar with his personality, but we don’t work together regularly or anything.

    Anyway, a while later in the middle of the conversation, Buck started to say the F-word, then stopped and looked at me, because I’m one of only a few women in our department and also one of the youngest and this is the South and as much as I super don’t care about cuss words, a handful of the older men here, Buck included, always make a whole big fuss about how they can’t curse in front of me because I’m a “Lady”. I haaaate it and try to keep pushing back against it every time they do it, but it doesn’t ever make a difference.

    So he does this again and I internally roll my eyes like usual, ready to reiterate once again how I don’t care if he curses, when Buck suddenly reached over and PHYSICALLY COVERED MY EARS WITH HIS HANDS so that he could finish saying f***. And I just froze. I’m so so mad at myself for not shouting or jumping back or reacting in any way, but instead I just stood there staring at him. Uuuugggggghhhh. It was so awful and out of line and gross and I’m mad at him for it and I’m mad at myself for not making a big scene over it, but it just took me so off guard that I couldn’t even process what had happened until it was over. Just… OH MY GOSH WHO DOES THAT?!?!?!

    2. Fire for Effect, Over*

      “I’m mad at myself for not making a big scene over it” I understand your momentary regret but you can still gain recourse for this incident and violation. But there’s no statute of limitations or time that address this.
      Sounds like ‘Buck’ is an older guy who doesn’t have the modern sensibilities expected in this current workplace generation. I encourage you to talk to him afterward, in private (if you feel comfortable) or with a trusted coworker, about how you felt and maybe still feel. Take time to practice what you want to say that helps him understand the error of his ways, how it made you feel, and how you both can move forward. Buck isn’t malicious so much as he’s trying to be ‘funny’ in accommodating what he thinks is your preference yet violating you to accomplish that. He should be reminded that the party, even off-premise was a sanctioned department party and he still must abide by any workplace harassment policies.

      If you don’t have a way to process this, you might have a residual emotional and social response, and perhaps not even know that your feelings are from this moment.

      1. EnfysNest*

        It wasn’t even off station or after hours – it was around lunchtime and at our facility. He is definitely an older guy and he doesn’t take anything seriously and everyone seems to just think of him as that hilarious old uncle in the family / the class clown who is always doing ridiculous things – he’s often referred to as “Wild Buck”. Everyone else seems to find him really funny / charming all the time. If I tried to bring it up with any of our other coworkers, their reaction would just be “Aw, silly old Buck. Well, you know he means well!”

        If I told him directly or via HR that it had bothered me or actually said “Hey, in the future, please don’t touch me,” I’m pretty sure he would be very contrite in the moment and be sad for upsetting someone (he always acts like he genuinely wants everyone around him to be happy), but in practice, it would probably just become a joke to him of “Oops, can’t even shake Enfys’ hand now! Gotta stay 10 feet back from her!” every time he saw me from now on.

        1. Do I need a hard hat for this?*

          UGH. I’m the only woman at my company (currently, other woman have worked here in the past). I feeeeel your frustration! Although, I’m lucky that the guys here have gotten used to me cursing as much (or more) than they do. My boss still apologizes to me when he says “fuck,” even though I’ve told him several times I’m a worse offender than he is.

          I’ve been sitting here trying to think of some witty comeback to put Buck in his place…but I’m at a loss for words. If anything like that ever happens again I think you have every right to gut punch him and then calmly say, “What the fuck, man?”

          I had a friend who used to think it was funny to lean on me (he was like 9 inches taller than me). Haha so funny, the good ol’ leaning on your short friend gag! So I started elbowing him in the ribs when he would do that. It solved the problem pretty quickly.

      2. pancakes*

        It’s not always an age issue. There are gen z guys who, like Buck, ooze paternalism like leaky garbage bags, and boomers who don’t. But yes, it’s definitely not too late to say something to him about this. Maybe something along the lines of, “I was caught off-guard when you put your hands over my ears the other day. Please don’t touch me again, and please don’t go on and on about my gender – it makes me uncomfortable, and it’s not appropriate for work.”

    3. Seifer*

      I once kept flinching because the president of the company kept saying ‘fuck’ but it was mostly because he was standing behind me and being loud and I don’t like shouting. He patted me on the shoulder and apologized, and I was like, “hey man, it’s a really fucked up situation, I get it.” Cue a short pause followed by ugly laughing.

      For me, the bland delivery is what works. But… had my president done what Buck did, he would’ve gotten a, “for fuck’s sake, man, my fucking dad hasn’t even done that to me!” But I sympathize. It’s easy to think about what you’d do after the fact, but yeah, that guy is super weird.

    4. Free Meerkats*

      Sounds like you need to prime yourself in future parties when he’ll be there. Since the odds are pretty good he’ll do it again, be ready with a loud, “What the FUCK was that?” I imagine the look of shock on his face will make it all worth it.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        “Keep your effing hands off my head, it’s a lot more offensive than the 4-letter word you are afraid to say.”

    5. Fikly*

      WOW. The censoring himself in front of you thing is obnoxious, but touching you without your consent is so far over the line and not ok.

      1. LilySparrow*

        Or, since the moment is past, “Hey Buck, remember last week when you thought it would be hilarious to put your hands on my ears? It wasn’t.

        Keep your fucking hands to yourself.”

      1. EnfysNest*

        (Sorry for the double post here – I thought I’d accidentally deleted my first response, but I guess it submitted correctly and was just stuck in moderation.)

    9. KoiFeeder*

      Oh, that is beyond inappropriate.

      For what it’s worth, freezing is probably less dangerous to your job than my instinct would be, because I would’ve bitten him.

  49. oona*

    So I think everything will be OK here, but in the event I’m horribly wrong I thought I’d check here and see what I should do.

    Last night was my company’s holiday party and one thing led to another and I hooked up with a guy I work with. We are both in our late twenties and about the same level in the company. We both work from home 75% of the time, and our work never overlaps. We actually matched on Tinder a few months ago and did not know we work for the same company until we saw each other at a different work event. We had a brief conversation before hooking up where he asked if it would be weird, and I said I have no expectations, I can be cool if he can be cool, and that if he changed his mind and didn’t want to do it that was fine and I’d take him home. His response was basically “ok” and then we moved on. I’m very single and happy that way, and he seems to be in the same boat. I’m pretty sure we are on the same page about what that hook up was.

    I don’t plan on broadcasting this company-wide or anything, but there are people who know. We were at a bar with a group of co-workers, they definitely knew what was up. My company is mostly people in their twenties and thirties, and I strongly suspect me and him were not the only ones in the group who hooked up that night.

    Anyway, I guess my questions are 1) does it seem accurate that this will not be a big deal for my workplace and 2) if it does end up being a thing my work wants to address, how should we/I handle it? I’ve never even come close to hooking up with a co-worker before, this is very much uncharted territory for me

    1. Cleopatra XV*

      Well, there are quite some people who meet their significant other at work. Meeting significant others usually also means, sooner or later, hooking up. The point is that if two people in your company are in a serious relationship, and have kids together, would HR be angry? Would the company consider this to be a big deal? If no, then the same thing applies to casual hookups or one-night stands.

      1. Cleopatra XV*

        And to answer question #2, it really depends on your company. Are employees not supposed to engage in personal relationships? I would be quite shocked if HR comes and talks to you about this. I mean we all have a life to live. You will definitely be subject to gossip, but well, we all do at some point, either when we resign, when get divorced, when we hook up etc.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Many, many years ago, I hooked up with a co-worker. It developed into a kind of long-term FWB situation with a couple of random dates. We both worked for the same company, but I changed divisions, so while we didn’t work together directly we had a lot of connections. I don’t know if anyone knew– we certainly didn’t do anything in public– and if they did, I doubt they said anything other than, “Um… what?” (We were kind of an odd pairing.) Now that I think about it, we did go out for pizza once in my neighborhood and our shared IT guy came over and said hello… I have no idea what HE must have thought, but he and I had a great rapport and he never said anything at the office.

      Anyway. At this point, I wouldn’t sweat it, especially since you don’t go into the office that much. If someone says anything to you along the lines of, “What’s going on with you and Jooooooooonnnnn?” then say, “Oh, we’re friends, we hang out sometimes” if you’re comfortable, but that’s all you have to say. “Nothing, why do you ask?” works too.

      Honestly, when you’re young and single and (in my case) living in a big city, this sometimes happens. And it can be great! I had a good time with my former co-worker, we never went beyond what we had, it never came up at work. At my old company, this would just be fodder for a couple of giggles and nothing more, seriously.

    3. Diana*

      I don’t think you have anything to worry about, especially if you aren’t planning to pursue a relationship with that person. I wouldn’t say anything about it. Congrats on a nice evening!

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Just have something prepared to say so you’re not taken unaware. I’d replace the word “hookup” with “date” because it’s less info for the gossip mill. Or an innocuous ‘we went for drinks afterwards’. Also? Consider aligning your stories so he doesn’t say you went dancing.

  50. Do I really want to do this?*

    Any tips for how to get over not receiving a promotion? I recently learned that the promotion I was hoping to get was given to someone else. I am really struggling to focus on my job and am stuck in a really negative mental mindset. How do you get back on track after a big disappointment?

    1. Put your talent in your work, your genius your life*

      Take a few days off.
      Try being happy for the other person.
      Be excellent at what you’ve been assigned to do.

      1. Cleopatra XV*

        I agree with the above.

        You can also try to find out what achievements made the other person get the promotion.

        Also, if you have been in that job for quite some time, you can see what the job market can offer you. Sometimes changing companies can do us some good !

  51. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Does anyone have a favorite remember template for Google Docs or MSWord or OpenOffice equivalent? I’m not thrilled with the resume templates online for Google docs, but if I find one I like, I’m less likely to get sidetracked by layout minutia. (I know myself that well at least.)

    2. Diana*

      I recommend using the ATS friendly templates from JobScan. They’re boring but safe and help you focus on what matters.

  52. MechanicalPencil*

    I’m friends with a coworker, Fergus. I privately communicated my frustrations with work (I’m very underutilized now that I have a new supervisor and incredibly bored). I mentioned to Fergus that I might start job searching. Fast forward a few weeks, and I have my last review with my now former supervisor, Lucinda. In her review, she comments something to the effect that she hopes “if I’m still here” we’ll continue to work together blah blah. My now former team is incredibly tight-knit, so I’m not sure if Fergus has mentioned my likely job searching or if Lucinda is guessing. And I’m not sure…of a lot of things really. Do I just continue to act as if of course I’m continuing to work at ABC Company or…?

    1. EvilQueenRegina*

      I would continue to act as though you’re still planning to work there. There’s never any way of knowing how long a job search will take, it could take ages, so even if you job search from today it could be a while before you actually leave.

      Is it possible that Lucinda has somehow picked up herself that you are under utilised, without Fergus having said anything?

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I think it’s worth saying something to Lucinda and asking what she meant by it. Maybe it will be something positive – “you’re clearly underutilized here so I would understand if you wanted to/probably are looking elsewhere” and you can have an honest conversation and maybe get her assistance in the process, or maybe she knows you might get laid off because there’s nothing for you to do, or maybe Fergus blabbed a private conversation.

      Either way if someone says “…if you’re still working here” it’s perfectly reasonable to want an explanation.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Are there any other relevant changes in your workplace?
      From what you’ve written I don’t think Fergus said anything. More likely Lucinda knows what’s what with the new supervisor.

  53. Group projects man...*

    I’m now at the end of my grad school semester and had to do 4 different group projects. All the groups were basically randomly assigned. The groups where I worked with other strong, conscientious students were awesome, and that kind of experience makes me understand why teachers assign group work. I still don’t think it’s particularly similar to working on a team in a paid job, but it was still a good learning experience. The groups where I was mainly working with weaker and less organized students were….frustrating. As has often been my experience, there were a couple people who completed their tasks in a very shoddy way, leaving the rest of us the choice of either just leaving it, or devoting a lot of time to coaching the other students to correct it (or just doing it ourselves.)

    So when groups are assigned by the teacher, why are students often grouped heterogeneously by ability? Why not group weaker students together so that they have to step up and figure it out themselves, and group stronger students together so they can challenge each other?

    1. J.B.*

      I had three really good groups this semester. One we had to group ourselves and I quickly asked some people who seemed involved in class, and the others were assigned by the professor. The professors went with complementary *skills* and it went really well. The problem with school group stuff is that many professors want to set it and forget it. I have never had a group project at work where everyone was on the same level, there was always someone more senior. So by default the senior person had more authority (and while some were really bad you could go to a boss to “problem solve” some of the issues.)

    2. SomebodyElse*

      Hate to break it to you, but those same students that you are complaining about will be your coworkers in the near future.

      You may not have to work on projects with them, but you will be depending on them to get stuff done so you can do your part… current cast of characters at my current workplace:

      The Blocker- hates anything new and will do everything they can to stop any changes
      All Talk No Action Guy/Gal: Has ‘great’ ideas and can tell you 6 different ways you should do something but never does any work
      The Procrastinator: Something due at noon… yep, the email timestamp will be 11:59:59 am
      The Shadow: Allegedly they work with you, but you can never find them and you have no idea what they are supposed to be doing
      NotMyJob Guy: Always tell you that whatever you need done is not their job. (no kidding I once had the Teapot Manger tell me that her team (the Teapot Management team) wasn’t responsible for managing teapots)
      Good Intentions Guy: Signs up for everything and gets so overwhelmed nothing gets done

      Frame it this way… you will be working with similar people for the rest of your working life. Learn now how to manage them on your school projects.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Don’t forget the Martyr, who wants to control everything and then tells the boss that nobody would help her.

        We had this person, June, on a group project the last time I was in school. The three of us –me, June, and Belinda– were supposed to design a series of client information brochures. She decided to take over the project, even though a communication lapse that put us behind was due to her (she claimed she was in a car wreck*). June also lied and told me and the instructor that Belinda cut out of a meeting because she “hates me,” when Belinda had actually texted her that she had a family emergency. June was so recalcitrant that the instructor just advised us to finish our portions of the project and she’d grade us separately.

        *she may have been, but on further reflection, I kinda had to wonder

      2. tangerineRose*

        Group projects at school are usually more of a pain though, at least if you have good management at work. In a school group project, the teacher usually just says to deal with it. A good manager will hopefully take steps to deal with the slackers.

    3. Fikly*

      Because in life, and at work, you will not always be group with people of equal skills and abilities. You need to learn how to work in groups in less than ideal circumstances, because life is not always ideal.

    4. moql*

      Ugh, I hated this when I was a TA. My boss told me to mix things up, but that just means the slackers got to continue slacking. Yes, in the “real world” (such a condescending term) you will work with deadbeats, but you will also have a boss to go to and hold them responsible. That’s not possible in a 100 person lecture and it’s not a fair comparison.

      1. KoiFeeder*

        Also, in the “real world,” you can quit! When your teacher refuses to hold your classmates responsible and gives you the options of taking on the whole project yourself or getting a bad grade, you can’t just leave that class and attend a different one. There’s some more leeway in college, where you can at least ask policy on group projects if you see them in the syllabus and drop or swap a class if the teacher is unreasonable and external circumstances permit, but most of my group projects were not in college courses.

      2. Fikly*

        But bosses don’t always do that. And sometimes teachers/TAs do hold them responsible. I’ve had classes where we got surveyed as to who contributed what, and that would change their grade.

        Yes, you can quit your job, in theory, but again, unless you have another one lined up, you may not be able to afford that. Life is never ideal.

    5. My Brain Is Exploding*

      I wish I could remember where I read this (and am in a bit of a cookie coma so not gonna research), but I did read something by a professor who thought groups SHOULD be homogenous. Basically it gave the lesser performers a chance to step up, and in each group the work was more equally distributed. I always hated group projects (unless each member’s duties were clearly defined by the teacher/Prof and graded on their individual merits). I have been known to request doing a 4-5 person project with 2 people, got it ok’d, and got good marks!

  54. Keep the Bathroom for.. Bathroom Use*

    Twice in the past hour I’ve gone into the bathroom to try to, you know, relieve myself in the facilities that the room is meant for. The first time someone was standing at the sink talking on the phone. The second time two separate cworkers were having a whispered conversation. For the love of God, use the stairwells so I can go in peace!

    2. Ms Dingle*

      Never been a problem for me. I’ll go into a stall and proceed with my business no matter what’s happening in the restroom.

      When I gotta go. I go.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Go into the stall and do what ‘ya gotta do… Then start flushing… A lot! Like over and over. HaHaHa! They’ll get the hint.

  55. December Thirteenth Twenty Nineteen*

    Has anyone used The Second Shift (for women professionals) as a platform to secure remote consulting work?

    I was referred by a past coworker, filled out the application, my referrals endorsed me and I have an interview in January (sounds like it’s more about the platform and how things work.)

  56. Sarah*

    I was recently referred to a job by a family member (we’re not particularly close and would be in different departments). I spoke to the HR manager for the company three days ago and the talk went really well but he said something at the end that has been on my mind since then. He expressed that he disliked when people left the company after a 3-4 years, and instead wished that people would change job functions or locations within the company if they wanted a change.
    Is this normal? I get the sense that this is a company where many are lifetime employees but it felt a little odd to express it this way. I really like the company culture otherwise but it feels a little dated in 2019 to expect people to stay at a company their whole working lives (and really don’t want an uncomfortable situation if I do at some point decide to leave). That said, this would be my first job at a large company, so I’m not sure if I’m just inexperienced with this kind of thing.

    1. MissBookworm*

      That’s definitely outdated thinking. I could understand if he was talking about people who leave after a year, but 3-4 years is a decent length of employment with one company.

      1. Sarah*

        Hi Miss Bookworm!

        Thanks for your reply- this is not only my first job with a large corporation but also my first job in the US in about 10 years, so I’m kind of out of my depths here and really appreciate your response!

        Would you view this as a red flag or a sign that I might be incompatible with the company? If it were just a hiring manager I wouldn’t think too much of it but I believe he’s the head of HR and on the executive board of the company, so I think it might be indicative of the attitude in the company as a whole.

        1. MissBookworm*

          I don’t necessarily think it’s a red flag, but 3-4 years makes me wonder about the availability of promotions and whether they’re leaving for lack of opportunities or because they just found something better. So I think you should look into that.

    2. fposte*

      I’d like to think he was phrasing something reasonable in an unreasonable way, and what he meant was “We have so many growth opportunities within our company and we love to retain talented people, so we hate to see them go.” But I think it’s likelier he was just a little out of date on what durations are usual.

      1. Sarah*

        Hi fposte,

        I did think about that and think that that’s a very reasonable statement (also in line with everything else I’ve heard about the company as they really do invest quite a lot in their employees and there’s a lot of vertical and lateral movement).

        However, I’m reasonably sure he was saying it in a way where he was specifically concerned that I would leave in 3-4 years. At the time, it felt a little like if I wasn’t at least open to staying in a position for life then I wouldn’t be a good fit. I said something kind of non-committal about the right company often being more important than the job because I was a bit taken aback.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, I figured from the way you phrased it. This might be a situation where you can use your inside knowledge–does your family member know more about this? If you do leave after three years, will your family member get any blowback? I also think it’s fine to take a job there without planning to stay for life, even if they think you will; you just have to realize that there will be a notice period of Sad Disappointment when you move on.

          1. Sarah*

            Thank you for the great advice- also the ‘Sad Disappointment’ notice period gave me a good chuckle.

    3. Diana*

      Lol, he’s just outdated. We do not have an economy or a society that supports the old work-here-for-life model. Employers fire at will, conduct widespread layoffs without warning, offer limited promotions and insultingly small raises that barely cover inflation. The only opportunity that most people have for serious salary increases comes during job offer negotiations, so savvy people switch jobs every few years to get the market rate. The idea that he thinks people leave after 3-4 years because they want a “change of scenery” makes me laugh. People want MONEY. I don’t really think it’s a red flag for you, because it doesn’t affect you in any way. Just enjoy your new job, don’t expect any raises (since this guy doesn’t get why people are leaving, I doubt you will get any) and in about 2 years it’ll be time to search for a new job with an increase in pay.

    4. Fikly*

      It’s not uncommon, but it’s 100% unreasonable. If he wants people to stay, even in different positions, he needs to make it attractive for them to stay.

      1. Auntie Social*

        I think it’s wonderful that you can learn all kinds of things in different departments, I bet they cross train you and they really want you to succeed, and will help you do it. You couldn’t blast me out of a place like that.

  57. Eleanor Knope*

    Any advice on moving forward at work after a miscarriage? I’m lucky to have a very understanding boss, and since I found out during the workday at my 8-week appointment, I ended up just telling her what was going on and taking 3 sick days. It’s been a week but my body is still out of sorts, and emotionally I’m struggling to stay focused.

    I asked my boss to review a few items (I write internal articles and emails, so it’s not super high-stakes) and I’m realizing she isn’t reviewing them thoroughly, and more glancing over them to see if the messaging is right like she would when I’m working at my best (she missed a small typo in one and a link to a calendar invite with the wrong time on another, which are usually things I would catch before I send them to her).

    So, I guess, any advice for how to power through or what to say to my boss? I know it will get better with time, but I don’t want this to keep affecting my performance.

    1. Piccolo*

      My boss went through the same thing. She just told her boss what she needed and what she was going through and they worked together so that when she needed an extra day off, he knew what was going on. She would be in, and then take a day off, be back for a few days, take a day off, etc. Eventually she ended up telling us (her team) but it was understandable that it’s not just you take a few days off and then you’re 100% better.

    2. Jan Levinson*

      I am so sorry you are going through this. I suffered two back-to-back miscarriages this summer and struggled with this as well. Most bosses will understand. Take as much time as you need. I think it’s also okay to say, “I am aware this may have a short term affect my performance, and I appreciate you supporting me.” I think the more open you are (to the degree you feel comfortable) a good manager will understand you not being your best. My manager understood that, and has since made me comfortable about being transparent (we are people with emotions – not just working robots). I actually just told my manager this week that I’ll be attending counseling midday once every other week starting next week, and even included that I wanted to take control of my mental health after what my husband and I went through this summer. Best of luck moving forward, you have my sympathies.

    4. Fikly*

      I’m sorry for your loss.

      I went through/am going through something similar performance-wise in that I’m recovering from a concussion I got this summer. I was off work for two months, but then there’s been a long period of being back to work, but having enough cognitive problems that I need a lot of my work checked.

      My team and managers were supportive, but they weren’t sure how to support me at first. It made a big difference when I was able to clearly state what kind of help I needed. For example, can you proofread this list before I send it public, to check for typos?

      It’s going to affect your performance for a while. Rather than focus on not letting it affect your performance, I’d focus on not letting it affect the eventual final product. That’s something you can take action on, by explicitly telling your boss what kind of help you need.

    5. Fanny Wincham*

      I’m sorry for your loss. I’ve had a difficult journey with multiple miscarriages and my best advice is to be less focused on moving forward so much as taking care of yourself now. Grieving can take a long time and pop up in unexpected ways. Make sure you are taking care of yourself in basic ways (eating, sleeping, exercising when you are up to it).

      It sounds like nothing egregious has happened in your work and you are concerned about falling short of your own high standards. Being gentle with yourself may include understanding that you won’t be 100% at work for a bit. And that’s okay. If in six months your boss is talking to you about performance, that’s one thing, but for now, it’s okay if the calendar invite gets reissued.

    6. Blueberry*

      You have all my condolences. I too recommend that you go easy on yourself for the next while, give yourself a little more time for tasks, etc. I tried to power through after mine and that was… not the right idea.

      I hope you heal fully and well.

  58. MissBookworm*

    Not so good update to my post in last week’s open thread where I was complaining about having to plan a coworker’s retirement party at the same time that I’m prepping for our year-end audit. Well, I wasn’t able to get out of it. Apparently no one on the President’s team (the person retiring is his admin) can spare the time to plan it and he won’t assign anyone from the other departments to work on it because they’re just as busy. But apparently my department—Which is still horrendously short staffed because our temp that started last week has been told not to return (long story) and my boss is still out on medical leave—have all the time in the world. I literally told him that I was going to miss contractual deadlines because I was so busy and he just shrugged.

    The only saving grace is our new employee is picking things up much quicker now that we’e gotten through the initial frustrations—he’s started asking questions and admitted he should have been asking them all along. So training him has gone much smoother. We just can’t throw too much at him because he’s still learning and we want to keep the type of work consistent for a few more months before we hand him new tasks (that will require more training).

    I’ll be so glad when we finally get back on track—whenever that will be.

    1. Havarti*

      Wait, your boss shrugged about you missing deadlines?! And you have to plan a party? Does it have to be a fancy party? That’s awful.

      1. MissBookworm*

        You would think he’d care about missed deadlines, but I guess not.

        Yeah, the company President’s admin is retiring in January after almost 30 years with company. My boss usually plans these things with our operations accountant, but since my boss is on an extended medical leave our operations accountant is doing both of their jobs and has no time for party planning. So, it’s fall to me. I’m the one people go to with projects because I get them done correctly and on time… but not lately!

        It’s not going to be fancy—she wouldn’t enjoy that—but I do need to find a restaurant with a big enough space for us and figure out the menu and decorations or whatever we want to do. I’m also responsible for picking out her retirement gift. It’s too much pressure right now; my anxiety is already through the roof because of audit prep, training the new employee, and my regular duties so this party is just too much.

        1. Havarti*

          Oh man, finding a big enough restaurant is always a nightmare. Hate it. Just hate it. Could you enlist the help of family, friends, co-workers for ideas of a place? Let them do the looking. Or any way to delegate one small piece to different people? We do gift cards rather than a gift these days. Much easier.

          1. MissBookworm*

            Thanks! I’ll have to do that! Food-wise I’m good at picking good restaurants, but knowing how big of a space to get is going to be horrible.

            I think I can get one of my coworker’s to help with decorations—she loves doing that sort of thing so if she’s agreeable I’ll leave that with her.

            1. Havarti*

              If you’re looking at party/private dining spaces at restaurants, they will usually tell you what capacity it can handle. If website doesn’t say, a quick phone call can sort that out. So you really need to know about how many people are attending or will be invited. But yeah, off-load what you can.

              Seeing your response to Elenna below, would it be worth it to ask your grandboss to help prioritize what gets delivered first and what gets delayed? Good luck!

    2. Elenna*

      Ughhh. How do you think your boss would react if you sent out emails (cc’d to him) saying things like “hey I know our deadline is X but I need to move it to Y because I’ve been working on planning this party as per Boss’s request”?

      1. MissBookworm*

        I doubt my boss knows whats going on—he’s been on medical leave since the beginning of November so we’ve been reporting to his boss (grandboss being the company President). Grandboss is typically the type to be the first to back you up when you need help, but on this he’s being uncharacteristically weird. I might just send him an email reminding him of what I said and seeing how he wants me to alert our clients of late reports and see what happens there.

        1. valentine*

          The new guy can do the legwork and there should be another admin who has restaurant info to hand. The accountant should have stuff from other events. Ask your colleagues for help.

    3. Flyleaf*

      You should probably follow up with your message about missing contractual obligations with an email documenting the specific impacts. CC your boss. At this point your verbal warning to the President is not worth much, and will likely be forgotten then you are later criticized for missing the deadlines.

  59. Piccolo*

    How do you deal with sexism in interviews?

    It’s so rampant that… I mean at this point, I’ve learned to expect it and not take it personally. Sometimes though, it feels like AAGHGHHGHG GET OUT OF THERE and I can’t leave soon enough!

    2. pancakes*

      I’d like to know. I’m still straining my eye-rolling muscles at times when I think about things dudes said or did in interviews years ago.

  60. Corky's wife Bonnie*

    I want more holiday party stories!!! Alison, can we do another open thread? I bet a lot of people haven’t had theirs yet.

  61. Feeling Blue*

    I am so miserable at my current job and have never felt so stuck and hopeless at work as I do now.

    I’ve only been here since April and I can’t believe I already feel this way! I work for a nonprofit and our Board of Directors is a mess. They are the most negative, nitpicky, micromanaging group of people I have ever encountered. They dominate my time in a way I have never experienced. This is an incredibly toxic environment for me and I just need to get out.

    I have been applying to new positions since September and have only had one interview. I had another interview that was scheduled and then canceled before I even had the opportunity to participate in a phone call. I always thought I was a great candidate – I have received nothing but praise from former employers, my resume has received positive feedback, I’m confident I can write a great cover letter when needed. I guess there is just more competition than I realized.

    I feel depressed 99% of the time and getting out of bed in the morning has been a huge challenge. I don’t know why I am posting. I guess I’m hoping that someone will understand, or tell me it will get better.

    I have noticed decent job openings are few and far between in my area right now. Will it get better after the holidays? I really hope so.

    1. LessNosy*

      Hi there. I 100% understand. The problems getting out of bed in the morning is exactly me right now. I am so sorry that you feel this way. In my personal job hunting experience, I have seen more job openings pop up after the holidays. Budgets open up, new initiatives take hold, etc.

      One thing that has helped me is internalizing some advice a friend gave me. “Every day when you wake up, and you don’t want to get out of bed, tell yourself: ‘Today will be one less time I have to do this. The only way out is through.'” Instead of thinking “Great, I have to do this again,” thinking “Great! One less time I have to do this!” has truthfully really helped me.

      Hang in there, friend.

      1. Feeling Blue*

        Thank you so much, this is excellent advice. I’m sorry if you are going through something similar right now. It helps to know I am not alone. :)

    3. Natalie*

      I have been there, done that, up to and including suicidal ideation. Validation part: it really sucks, it’s a perfectly normal reason to be depressed so you are not being spoiled or something, and it will get better. Advice part: don’t neglect the non-job parts of your life. Friends/family, hobbies, pets (my dog was a literal lifeline), religious community if that’s your thing, exercise, volunteer role. If you don’t have a lot going on outside of work, pour a little bit of whatever energy you have into changing that. It really does help when you have something to look forward to day to day that isn’t Crap Job.

    4. Mrs. C*

      I’m right in the same boat with you – nonprofit, micromanaging board, trying to get out of a toxic environment, and confidence that I’m a strong candidate.

      A few tactics that are helping me stay sane (in no particular order):
      1. When it comes to job searching, reminding myself that the reason I’m applying to so few job openings is because I’m making sure I find myself a place I’m happy. I’m going to land somewhere good, even if it takes a while, because I’m dedicated to making that happen & not settling for somewhere else that’s awful.
      2. Realizing that the reason I’m not getting chosen by specific jobs is because the rest of the candidate pool is so strong. There’s nothing wrong with me – I’ve proven myself as an incredibly valuable employee, and as someone who can rock cover letters and interviews. I can’t fault myself for the fact that I’m probably being beaten out by people who are similarly awesome, but who have been in the field a few more years than I have.
      3. Doing whatever I can to keep the toxic environment from getting me down. In my case, the micromanaging has meant that I’m at a standstill on most of my projects. I’ve voiced that concern to my boss, and documented that I’ve flagged the issue. In the meantime, I’m finding websites I like to look at at work. I’m finding professional development and networking events during work hours that I can justifiably use to get away from my desk. Outside work hours, when I find work thoughts creeping in, I remind myself to stay in the moment and not to let my frustrating job win.

      Hopefully some of those tactics are helpful!

  62. Birch*

    Any advice for staying functional when you’re waiting to start a new job and officially have No More Fudge Brownies To Give? I have a long notice period and am beginning the process of leaving, but finding it hard to keep doing work when part of the reason I’m leaving is such extreme moving goalposts and lack of communication that in almost 2 years I’ve gotten next to nothing done. I’m not worried about leaving with a good impression because my boss has already eradicated any trust I had in her, so I don’t depend on her for recommendations or reputation, and I’ve come to terms with the fact that my projects keep getting given to other people so I’m not likely to be able to finish any of them before I leave. Honestly if I could have walked out a year ago, I would have, but I’ve just now got something new lined up. Anyone else been in this situation and what do you tell yourself to keep yourself showing up to work?

    1. Birch*

      Oh, I also just want to scream into the void that some louder voices on our team pressured the rest of us into buying our abusive supervisor a very expensive, very intimate gift, and then had the gall to complain that it was insulting if we didn’t also include her partner in the gift and basically say we didn’t give enough. Half the team is students and the other half are the second-worst paid in our sector, according to the AAM salary survey. Supervisor makes 5x the students’ stipend and 3x mine. So I’m still a bit ragey about that.

    2. Zephy*

      How much longer is your notice period? Can you afford to just…not come back on Monday? Like, can you cover the bills that will need paid between now and that first new-job paycheck with the money you currently have? If not, how much longer do you need to work this job before you can afford it? You already said you’re not depending on references or anything from your boss. What can they do to you now if you just bounce?

    3. Dancing Otter*

      Wall calendar with big red X through each date as you go. (Even if it’s just printing out the month view from Outlook.) Put the number of work days remaining in the corner of each day’s square.
      Since it can’t be a secret (can it?) that you’ve given notice, no need to put it where others won’t see it.
      Maybe make it your own personal advent calendar with a candy for each day.

  63. Triumphant Fox*

    This week has been such a struggle with executives making comments that I don’t feel like I can address in the moment (or don’t know how to), but that make me sad. One was my boss (who I like a lot!) who mentioned how this contest isn’t like the democrats – you can’t just hand things out to everyone. How is being a citizen like our contest? Another was my CEO going on a long discussion (rant?) that started with us talking about preferred pronouns and how I think it’s really important to respect someones desired pronouns, just like it’s important to try to pronounce someone’s name correctly. It ended with him talking about trans men in restrooms and “Would you trust your kids with them?” I just didn’t have the courage to really wade into either of these discussions with clarity. I get so emotional in the moment. In both instances, I ended the discussion as quickly as possible.

    1. Havarti*

      Ewwwwwww! On the plus side, you now know where your boss and CEO stand. I don’t know that you can change their minds.

    2. pancakes*

      Maybe it’s wishful thinking, but a quick and to-the-point “Women’s bathrooms have stalls, you know” might shut the conversation down without too much drama.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      It’s okay to do what you need to do to get through these moments. It’s a tricky thing to discuss heated topics with a boss or higher-ups. I think ending the discussion quickly is a very smart thing to do. Being a social justice warrior is a fine thing, but you are allowed to decide when and where to be one.
      Sending good thoughts for the future.

      1. Triumphant Fox*

        Thank you so much for the affirmation. This has made me more upset than I expected – these are moments that really color your view of people you respect and it’s disheartening. I appreciate hearing that it’s OK not to be a warrior in every instance.

  64. Kramerica Industries*

    I have a coworker who tends to send really blunt emails. The last few times, they’ve been more on the rude side (e.g. “Well if you understood properly, I shouldn’t have to explain it, but here’s X details”). I went to my manager with this one because there were enough instances that I was not happy with this attitude/I thought it could damage our relationships with partners. Manager said that she has noticed this but has boiled it down to a language barrier issue and doesn’t think you can coach on language issues.

    I don’t know whether I’m asking for advice or just ranting, but this bothers me. My coworker is an immigrant and has a bit of an accent, but has been in the country for at 15 years. He writes with proper grammar and everything, but seems to just put whatever is in his head on paper. My manager is Caucasian and I feel like she’s confusing language barriers with communication issues. And communications is definitely trainable! For the record, I’m also a visible minority and I don’t think that giving my coworker a pass is doing any favours in how people perceive visible minorities and articulation, but this is probably a societal thing I can’t change right now. It’s weird because on one hand, I guess it’s good that my manager is trying to be lenient with immigrants who may struggle with language, but it also doesn’t seem like the right approach.

    1. Birch*

      FWIW you’re definitely in the right. It’s great to be sensitive to communication styles and cultural differences. But that’s not an excuse for hurting people or hurting the business and can definitely be trained. In fact, it would be a benefit to that employee to better understand how to get their desired response from people!

    2. Fikly*

      Yeah, there’s a difference between blunt and insulting. And too many people use “I’m just blunt” as an excuse for being insulting.

    3. Triumphant Fox*

      My Spanish teacher in high school would always ask us to correct him on his English. “It’s cute when a 3-year old says the wrong thing. It’s not cute when I do it.” I think the same applies to general tone or communication style, no matter if it’s a language barrier or an emotional intelligence issue. You should be able to say, “In this email, you may just think you’re giving them information. What you’re actually doing is signaling that they are an idiot.”

      1. Kramerica Industries*

        Literally asked my boss if she’d be okay with me giving him communications tips and she said that it’s better not to and others would just have to get used to the fact that it’s his style.

        Also, hello sexism. At another job, I’d be coached into ending emails with “Let me know what you think” so they don’t sound too harsh and this guy (and other IT dudes) get a pass to be rude? So frustrating.

        1. tangerineRose*

          “others would just have to get used to the fact that it’s his style.” That’s ridiculous. This is going to cost him a lot in his career as well as being very irritating to everyone he deals with.

    4. Koala dreams*

      It’s quite possible to coach people on language issues and e-mail writing. I’m surprised your boss think it isn’t possible! There are even courses in business writing. It’s a shame your boss isn’t supportive.

    5. Arts Akimbo*

      You say your manager is Caucasian– implying that this coworker is not? I wonder how much she’s worried about treading on race issues when trying to correct his communication?

      I absolutely had to correct a communication style issue with a coworker who was technically one of my bosses, even though I wasn’t in her direct line of command. Mainly because I was going to murder her (exaggerating!) if she did not start saying please and thank you when she barked instructions at us. She was from Germany and had lived in the Southern US for 20 years, but in all that time no one had ever told her how irritating it was that she didn’t use the word please. She said in her culture it sounds like begging, rather than the polite social tic it is here. She was really happy I told her, and kind of annoyed no one had ever told her before.

      Maybe it was easier for me to work myself up to do this than for your boss because she and I were both the same race. Would I have thought twice if she were a visible minority? I don’t know. Maybe your guy would be happy if you suggested a list of some softer phrases to use in email! Or maybe he’s just an asshole. But I think your boss’s ignore-it strategy is wrong. That guy will become everyone’s BEC before too long.

  65. Anon for this*

    What to do on a lunch hour:
    Recently there was a question about an employee driving for Uber in his lunch hour.
    In the comments, someone said they preferred a half-hour lunch because they wouldn’t have enough to do with the extra time. It wasn’t phrased as preferring a half-hour lunch so they could leave earlier.
    I’ve heard colleagues make similar comments at various jobs. Have to admit I cannot understand how that would feel. I can always distract myself in my free time. Even before the Internet/social media, I would read a magazine or just daydream.
    Please be honest: Does this trait mean I might not be the best employee? If I were hiring, I would be a little puzzled personally by someone who didn’t know how they would cope with extra free time, but I might hire them over someone like myself.
    Thanks for any feedback. I may not get back here until much later in the day.

    1. Peaches*

      I don’t think that trait in any way means you’re not the best employee. In my opinion, preferring a half hour lunch because you get bored vs. preferring an hour lunch to daydream doesn’t indicate whatsoever what kind of employee you may be. I think there are probably individuals in both groups that excel/don’t excel at the same job.

    2. sunshyne84*

      As long as your work is getting done you’re fine. What you do on your break is your business. I daydream when I’m not on lunch and everybody loves me.

    3. Havarti*

      If you’re doing your job well and your boss is happy, why would being able to entertain yourself for a short period make you a poor employee? If you have coworkers who could use help and you’re twiddling your thumbs, yeah, that’s not a good look but people who can’t sit still for a few minutes and need to re-arrange the filing cabinets aren’t automatically better employees.

    4. Colette*

      I would probably say that I don’t have enough to do for an hour long lunch period, but I would only care about that because I’d rather leave earlier. It’s not that I wouldn’t be able to entertain myself for an hour, it’s that I’d rather have the time after work.

  66. Hellow Sweetie!*

    Referring a spouse to a company you work at?

    I always check on the open positions in my (large >1500 employees, four different sites) company and happened to come across a job that sounds like it would fit my husband really well. It’s in a department that overlaps mine minimally (like once a year they might ask someone from my group to help with an event). It’s even in a separate building, so we would hardly see each other unless we make an effort.

    He’s currently a part time stay at home dad – but his work experience would fit right in. I already set him an email about the job. But can I officially refer him? We have one of those referral programs, so if I did refer him and he got the job, I think I would get a small bonus. But since he’s my husband, would that be a problem?

    And if I do refer him, should I mention in the referral that he’s my husband? I’ve never referred anyone before, I’m not sure how much I’m expected to put in the comment box.

      2. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Hm, now I’m rethinking my earlier comment below. Hellow Sweetie, maybe you should ask first, as Reba’s response is a good reminder that my industry is rather insular and people tend to know each other and refer each other, even friends and family. It might look bad if that’s not done in your field.

      3. Hellow Sweetie!*

        Thanks for this gut reaction! The environment is a non-profit research institution, so we have some of that academic style of doing things. There are a lot of married and long term committed couples working here – sometimes in the same department!

        I sent the link to the position to my husband, but I think I’ll forgo referring him – but if he does apply, I’ll remind him to mention that I work here so the hiring manager knows upfront.

        1. Reba*

          Yeah, keep in mind that working together and referring are distinct issues!

          I have no feelings on spouses and relatives working in the same workplace. My reaction was that you can’t be a “neutral” source on your spouse’s candidacy. I know that referral programs aren’t necessarily like a reference, but you just gotta recuse yourself from the whole thing IMO.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I don’t see anything wrong with it, as long as you’re not supervising or being supervised by the position he’d apply for, and you’re not part of the hiring decision. You could always ask your HR department, but I would just refer him, and yes, most definitely mention that he is your spouse, otherwise IMO it looks a little like you’re trying to hide a conflict of interest.

    3. Alfonzo Mango*

      I have worked at large companies where it was totally acceptable for spouses to work and refer each other, because positions are hired on merit. You should certainly ask your boss and HR! And even if you can’t refer him, he should apply! Always try.

    4. Indy Dem*

      I was my wife’s referral (with referral bonus attached) and there wasn’t an issue (I’ve been here 5 years, she had worked for the company for about 7 when I was hired).

    5. Rexasaurus Tea*

      If you’re feeling iffy about it, is there someone else in the company who knows your husband professionally and would be willing to put in the referral? We did this when my husband applied at my company. A coworker of mine had worked with my husband elsewhere several years prior, so the coworker put in the referral and none of the three of us mentioned the marriage connection. I don’t think there would have been a problem if I’d been the referrer, but the coworker was in a better position to describe Husband’s technical capabilities anyway.

  67. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

    Brief brag, sorry: I am having a MONTH. In the last four weeks, I have been nominated for a departmental spotlight, appointed as an associate member of our culture and diversity council, my application for an executive leadership training program that my org runs was requested by my director and approved by the program, and I finished a bachelor degree today. (And my birthday is on Tuesday.)

    Less bragging part: One of my responsibilities for the leadership program, before my cohort starts, is to identify and ask a current member of leadership to partner with me in a mentor role. I have identified the person I’d like to ask, we get on like gangbusters and have been on project teams together in the past but she’s not in my direct line of reporting, which was encouraged. However, she’s out of office into the first part of January with no email or voicemail access.
    First q: suggestions on drafting the email to ask her (I thought email would be better than f2f so’s to avoid putting her on the spot?) would be appreciated – right now I’m treating it basically like a request for a recommendation letter.
    Second q: send it as soon as it’s done, or wait til she’s back so it doesn’t get lost in her mailbox after being out for a month?

    3. Llellayena*

      Can you talk to her manager and explain about the mentor and contact issue? They might have a way to reach her when she’s on leave, if it’s something time sensitive. Or they can advise you whether to send now or later (or both).

    4. Anono-me*

      Congratulations. It sounds wonderful.
      Are you a hundred percent certain that the person you’d like to be your mentor is not discreetly checking emails and voice messages? I know several people who will indicate that they are out of the office for two weeks. but every few days will check email to make sure that the building hasn’t burned down.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I believe she has actually gone back to visit her family in her home country in Africa, where she has not historically had reliable internet access. So I’m pretty sure that she legit won’t be checking in.

  68. GRA*

    For the first time in my career, I’m interviewing people. And wow – there are a LOT of bad cover “letters” out there (mostly poorly crafted paragraphs). Not a single decent one so far. And it’s for a communications role! I’ve never been so grateful for Alison and this community more.

    1. Havarti*

      I did a brief stint in an HR office back in the day and it was very interesting what people would put in their resumes and cover letters.

  69. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    Last week we had the saddest end of year party ever, thanks to one of the employment agencies that work with us.
    They had the worst timing and decided to fire one of my coworkers the very morning of the party. By Whatsapp. Whithout checking with management. The shock was such the project manager, the team leader, and the project manager’s manager had to apologise in person to us and our ex-coworker, who was cyring buckets in the break room. The project manager wanted to murder the agency representative because the plan was break the news after the party, so she could finish her work and to let her say goodbye properly. So at the party we were all sitting in a corner, sipping our beers and bashing HR and the agency.

  70. stitchinthyme*

    Just a vent, no advice needed…

    After years of hearing loss, I got a cochlear implant which was activated about 4 months ago; everything sounds much louder to me than it did when I had my natural hearing. (I have worked with my audiologist on this, but she’s walking a fine line between loud enough for me to understand people and overwhelmingly loud.)

    I am fortunate enough to have my own office, as is typical for my company; most of us do not close our doors unless we’re having a private meeting. But since my CI activation, I have noticed that if any of my coworkers are having a conversation anywhere near my office (including in the neighboring offices up to 2 or 3 doors away), it drives me batty…and it happens a lot, like several times a day for anywhere from a few minutes to a half-hour or more at a time. It’s not that they’re talking any louder than usual (I’ve been in this office 6 years and it never bothered me before); it’s that they SOUND louder to me. If they don’t go away after a few minutes, I’ll take off my CI processor and hearing aid so I can’t hear them. I hate having to do this, though, because it renders me about a half-step above deaf — I can hear something really loud like a fire alarm or someone shouting, but not normal sounds. I have also occasionally closed my door, but as I said, this is not the norm in my company and I already often feel isolated from everyone else, so I hate to do something that compounds that. And asking people to be quieter is not an option either — often these are normal work conversations, and one of the frequent talkers is my company’s president (it’s a small company), and it doesn’t really seem fair to ask people to shut up when the problem is really mine.

    Makes me wonder if there’s a quieter area I could request to move to…

    1. CheeryO*

      Can you pop on a pair of noise cancelling headphones for a few minutes, even if you don’t want to listen to music? You definitely shouldn’t have to turn your hearing aid/implant processor on and off throughout the day.

      1. CheeryO*

        Sorry, didn’t mean to give unsolicited advice! I definitely sympathize – I am hard of hearing in one ear, and this is the kind of thing that makes me nervous about going down the hearing aid path.

        1. stitchinthyme*

          It’s not a bad idea; I might bring in some headphones and see if that works.

          Overall, I am happy with my CI and hearing aid — my life would be much worse without them! But everything has its down sides; I weighed them against the problems caused by my hearing loss and concluded that having this technology, even with its issues, was far better than not being able to hear. (I had severe hearing loss in one ear but only mild loss in the other when I got my CI. And then I had another sudden drop in the “good” ear shortly after my surgery, so I ended up being really glad I’d gotten it.)

    2. Another JD*

      I keep earplugs and noise cancelling headphones at my desk for the stuff I can’t tune out. I’m not sure if they’re compatible with your CI, but they help.

    3. Fikly*

      My brother-in-law uses CIs, and I never knew how complicated it could be before I got to know him.

      I wonder if there’s a community of CI users (or more than one!) that would have more practical ideas because they’ve dealt with similar issues? Or at least you might feel less alone if it can’t be solved. I find being part of communities with people who have the same or similar health conditions as me very validating, because people outside just do not get it, and it’s nice to be able to complain/vent to people who do.

      I hope that wasn’t too much advice. It sucks to have something that was supposed to be all good turn out to have not great things come with it.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        Oh, I’m in a few of those communities. It’s a pretty common problem. There just aren’t really many good solutions, which is why I wanted to vent.

  71. HR Worrywart*

    Is anybody preparing to give bad news in advance of the holidays? Have you come up with any strategies you’d like to share (with regard to timing, delivery, etc.) to potentially mitigate some of the pain or frustration for employees impacted by the news?

    For context: I’m in an HR/operations role at a small nonprofit. We have one employee who has been struggling to meet position requirements for the better part of a year now. Both his direct supervisor and our ED have had conversations with him about better managing his workload and prioritizing more effectively. (Yes, I’ve been encouraging them to document these conversations—to little avail.) This employee has acknowledged that he struggles to balance his full-time workload with his full-time academic courseload but has refused a reduction in hours, presumably for financial reasons. We have seen no improvement in his work performance in the months that he’s been in dialogue with leadership about it; if anything, he only seems to be backsliding further.

    Our ED has taken some time to reflect and has decided that she is prepared to cut him to 80% of his current time and salary for at least the first quarter of the new year, and place him on a formal PIP. (He would retain his benefits and be considered full-time.) These are all things I have been pushing for over the last several months, so in a way I’m glad leadership is finally onboard. However, due to many of us working variable schedules in this hectic time of year, the only day we will all be in the office to notify him of this change is next Friday—our last workday of the year, which is also the day we hold our holiday party and gift exchange. Of course, as HR, our ED would like me to be part of this conversation. (And yeah, I’m his Secret Snowflake.)

    I probably don’t have much say over whether this conversation happens, but I would like it to be as compassionate as possible. I do understand the pressure that he is under as a full-time student and I want that to be clear in how we discuss this change with him. But I also recognize that at the end of the day, it’s hard to enjoy your catered holiday lunch or your ten-day break when you’re reeling from a salary reduction and performance warning. Any suggestions for cushioning this conversation even just a little bit (or how to put aside my frustration that our organizational leadership is only ready to act on this now)?

    1. CatCat*

      I know you don’t have say over whether this happens, but do you over when. The timing is just awful. How many people need to even be part of the this conversation? Why not just have less people and do this ASAP? Why not wait until January?

        1. HR Worrywart*

          I’m back and forth on suggesting whether it happens after the new year. If it were strictly performance-related and there weren’t a pay cut involved, I’d say that’s ideal. But I’m wondering if it’s fair to wait and tell him about a pay cut that will be effective immediately.

          My ED wants to be part of this conversation as well as this employee’s direct supervisor, and they’re both out of state for a conference through Wednesday. The employee in question has a planned PTO day on Thursday for an appointment. That leaves Friday if we want to do it this year (which, again, I don’t know if I do!).

          1. CatCat*

            Could you at least do it after the holiday lunch and not before it if it *must* be that day?

            Jamie makes a good point about Christmas gift spending, but that goes in favor of doing it very soon, not 5 days before Christmas when gifts that require shipping have already been shipped.

            I mean, I get that the ED wants to be there and the direct supervisor being there would be ideal, but it’s just such a bad day. Is there literally anyone else who could be there in person and the ED and supervisor Skype-in or call-in? That’s not ideal, but the timing is so much better.

            Like, what’s best for the employee here? Finding at now, or having the ED and direct supervisor being present in person at a later time?

            1. HR Worrywart*

              Doing it after the lunch is definitely something I can argue for, if we do have to do it on Friday.

              But yes, I’m definitely concerned enough about what’s best for this poor guy that I could also float having the conversation with him myself and letting the ED and supervisor conference in if they feel it necessary.

      2. Jamie*

        The problem with waiting until January is, if he celebrates Christmas, it’s past the time where he can dial back his gift giving knowing he has to tighten his belt.

        I’d rather know sooner than later if it were me.

        2. Zahra*

          By December 20th, it’ll be too late for a lot of people (most people?) too. Can it be done via video conference call today? That would give him the weekend to digest the news. But really, for a student, there are no good moment in December: it’s finals time, Christmas time, etc.

          Other suggestion: tell him in January, but pay cut takes effect on February 1st. Basically, push the timeline back by one month.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      I don’t know how to cushion your news.
      So here’s a side note: cutting someone’s pay could be considered “constructive firing” in the U.S. and trigger unemployment issues. Just an FYI.
      I hope it goes as well as can be expected.

      1. Flyleaf*

        One issue could be the he’s ineligible for unemployment since he’s a full time student. In my state you can’t get unemployment if you are a full time student.

  72. wingmaster*

    Tips for first time managers?

    Just started my new role this week as one! It’s a huge jump for me from my previous role. At least I won’t have direct reports…

  73. Simba*

    I’m looking for suggestions about how to explore career paths. I graduated a couple years ago with a bachelor’s degree, and I’m still trying to figure out what I want to do for the rest of my life. Some of the options I’ve considered would require further education, so before jumping into that I want to be sure that’s I want to do. So I’m just looking for ways to get an honest and realistic idea of what different jobs or careers would be like. Any advice?

    1. irene adler*

      Might contact some professional organizations in the industries you wish to work in. That could be a tall order if your interests are many. Those folks can give you insights on various careers (I.e. what you’d be “in for” if you worked in their field).

      Perhaps start with the college career center ?

    2. Colette*

      I’d recommend changing your mindset a bit – in other words, it’s not necessarily what you want to do for the rest of your life, it’s about what you want to do next.

      What are you good at? What do you like doing?

      And, once you’ve thought about that, what are you good at that you also like doing?

    3. Wandering_beagle*

      You mention figuring out what you want to do for the rest of your life…Just remember that whatever you choose doesn’t have to be what you do forever. So, you could think about what types of work you enjoy now and pursue that. In 5 years, you might be in a different place and you can evaluate then whether your career fits and supports your life goals. We all grow and change throughout our lives, and what we need in a career changes, too. Knowing that can help take the pressure off of finding the “perfect” career, too.

      That said, having had 3 careers so far, I’ve found it’s not so much the subject area of the job, but the environment you are going to be working in. Like, do you want to be around people or work by yourself? Are you ok sitting in an office or do you absolutely need to be outside? Those types of questions. You could do a top 10 of those needs, and then look at careers that have those qualities.

    5. Process Geek*

      Some time ago, I read an article (that I can’t find again!) about talking with children about “what they want to be when they grow up.” The suggestion was to re-frame the question – what problem(s) do you want to solve? I found this incredibly helpful in looking at my own career.

  74. k8*

    guess who has two thumbs and hooked up with her coworker at the office holiday party this week . . . *facepalm* you’d think i know better after all the horror stories i’ve read on this site, but apparently not!

    2. Anonysaurus*

      Hey. You could be me, who went to her holiday party tonight, said about ten words to the cute guy in marketing, accepted his compliment on my appearance, inexplicably failed to continue the conversation for reasons of incompetence and awkwardness, lost him in the crowd and ultimately went home alone. Whereas you have had more fun than that! I get that there’s a downside, just smh at my own ridiculousness really!

  75. CatCat*

    I recently heard a piece on NPR’s “Hidden Brain” that was fascinating. It’s called, The Psychology Behind When Emotions Turn Us Into Different People.” I’ll put a link in a reply.

    It talks about why we behave differently than we’d expect we’d behave when we’re experiencing emotions (e.g., freeze when we expect to be courageous). Part of the study involved job interviews where the interviewer made sexually harassing statements to the interviewees. In the first part of the study, women were asked what they would do in this scenario, the vast majority expected they would respond in an assertive or aggressive way. But in the second part of the study where the interviews occurred, that did not happen AT ALL. The women who imagined being sexually harassed and the women who experienced it had very different emotional reactions that impacted their behavior.

    I thought it was fascinating because I have definitely experienced this kind of thing and it explains why so many people freeze in a moment when they’re experiencing something shocking and that is so different than they would have thought they would behave if they just imagined experiencing it. I think we see that a lot of this in life and on this site! It’s one thing to be a commenter, quite another to be an OP!

    2. fposte*

      Oh, that’s really interesting. I really bemoan internet tough-guyism in general and this is a helpful reminder as to why it’s baseless.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I love Hidden Brain! I’ve been saving all my podcasts for the road trip I’m taking with my husband over Christmas, can’t wait to catch up on this one!

  76. Eillah*

    I have gotten myself into a stupid, low stakes work problem.

    I suck at giving gifts, so when I had to buy a cookbook for one of my boss’s direct reports, I sent him an email jokingly asking him what kind of food he likes, and for him to not read into the “random” question.

    My boss saw the email and is mildly annoyed that I let the cat out of the bag (reasonable).

    How do I apologize??

    1. Colette*

      “I’m sorry – I should have handled it without asking him.”

      If it helps, if someone asked me that, I’d be thinking restaurant not cook book.

      But also you might want to think about why you asked in the first place – this isn’t a circumstance where it has to be perfect. You could have bought a cookbook and given it with a gift receipt and he could have swapped it if he already had it/didn’t like it.

    2. Jessica*

      I don’t think you should! Or at max, a brief and breezy apology. If he doesn’t like the way you figured out this gift, he can either do it himself, or be more specific next time about not probing for hints.

    4. AngelicGamer, the visually impaired peep*

      …how…that is so not giving anything away! You could be asking to give a restaurant gift card, to bake something with their tastes in mind, or anything else that is not a cookbook. Just…urg. You didn’t let the cat out of the bag.

  77. $!$!*

    Y’all I’m pissed! I’m an lcsw at an outpatient hospital and this year has been a glut of patients with janky insurance plans at $500! Dollars! A month premiums! Yes I know our insurance situation in the US is jacked up but these policies aren’t catastrophic plans with outrageous deductibles it’s no insurance at all!

    employers are providing “health insurance benefits” that do not meet ACA requirements of “minimum essential coverage” so that when someone needs care they can only go to six! Doctors! Appointments! a year and will pay for nothing else. I wish I was kidding. So I called the ACA and they said that they can’t do anything bc the plans weren’t sold through the marketplace and told me to call OSHA. So I called OSHA compliance and left a message with someone and I know I’ll never get a call back. I also called my states insurance department and was told they only help with unpaid bills/claims with insurance, not the actual policy itself.

    TLDR: is there an advocacy group or a hotline to let my patients know if they want to file a complaint regarding health insurance policies being sold that does not meet minimum essential coverage. If not I’m quitting my job and selling health insurance and scamming people

    1. fposte*

      Wow, good for you on going to bat for your patients. It does sound like you might be encountering legal non-ACA plans, though, which is a nasty little category that’s been growing since federal permissions for expansion last year. I’ll add a link in followup about them.

        1. pancakes*

          FYI, Forbes contributors are often unpaid and unvetted writers trying to advance their personal interests and gain exposure, and this guy’s bio says he’s the head of a think-tank that appears to be closely associated with former Speaker of the House Paul Ryan. A quick search indicates Ryan’s tax plan was based on the work of two other “scholars” from the same organization. I would not rely on advice from any of them unless I was trying to promote far right interests.

          1. fposte*

            Fair point. I was posting that to outline examples of non-ACA plans, but it’s probably got some advocacy in there that I don’t agree with.

            1. $!$!*

              Thanks this is a good start and I’ll take the advice with a grain of salt. Fposte you’re a true gem

    2. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

      I’m confused — I don’t think there are any actual consequences for not having MEC anymore, and employer-sponsored plans are automatically MEC, regardless of how bad they are. Do you mean they don’t cover essential health benefits (and aren’t grandfathered)? I would suggest they see if their state attorney general can help (mine has a “Health Education and Advocacy Unit”) and/or their representative’s constituent services.

      2. $!$!*

        I think I mean that it doesn’t cover essential health benefits. So no surgery, chemo, physical therapy, nothing! Thanks I’ll look that up

    3. Fikly*

      Yes! Usually through the state you live in. Googling your state and health insurance regulation or something similar should help you figure out who it is.

      I had ACA marketplace insurance that was refusing to cover anesthesia at my in network hospital with my in network surgeon because the anesthesiologists (the only ones the hospital used) were out of network. That’s not legal. So I called the state, they called the insurance and told them they can’t do that, and my insurance called me, claimed it had been a big misunderstanding (ha!) and then they had to pay.

      FYI, when you called the ACA, you likely called the marketplace, which is why they couldn’t help you.

      1. $!$!*

        Hahaha!! You’re right I do need to follow up somehow with the ACA, not the marketplace phone number. D’oh! Thanks

    4. pancakes*

      I’ll think more about this, but my initial suggestion is to try:

      1. The state attorney general’s office. I filed a complaint with mine years ago about a terrible health insurance experience I was having and one of the now-out-of-business ins. co. execs called me late one night, ranting, and pleaded with me to drop the complaint, so I knew they took action on it.

      2. See whether local law schools have benefits-related clinics. In my experience those tend to focus on helping individuals get benefits, but I bet some of them take on broader issues.

      Good luck. This makes me so mad!

      2. Ama*

        Yes, state or local AG and/or if your local government has a Public Advocate or similar position (I don’t know if this is common in other states, but here in NYC the Public Advocate is an elected position that basically exists to bring the city government’s attention to problems like this that might be going unnoticed (or that the government is screwing up addressing).

      1. $!$!*

        That’s what the OSHA guy told me but I cited a fact sheet online from the OSHA website “filing whistleblower complaints under the affordable care act” which doesn’t quite cover what I’m looking for. And then he said oh yeah OSHA does cover a few of the statutes (??) and referred me to compliance line (??).

  78. Mazzy*

    Sudden big changes are hitting to our company that are beyond anyone’s control and now I’m freaking out. I feel like my day to day is valuable and great when we’re bringing in customers and fixing errors but if the company and industry have large changes, then it feels like it’s all for naught. I’m scared because I don’t even know what it would be like to start over somewhere in my early 40s. I have an emergency fund, but reality is setting in, and I’m realizing that there is never enough security, and an emergency fund may not be enough. And if it comes to layoffs, even if you have an emergency fund, you’re net worth is still going down. When does the adult part of life come when you don’t need to worry constantly and can just live and focus on life? This is reality motivating to up my FIRE stuff even more

    1. fposte*

      Sorry, Mazzy, that’s definitely a worrying situation. I do think there are people who are just comfortable with that kind of ambiguity and see changes like that as an opportunity to grow and upsell, but I’m afraid I’m not one of them myself; it may still be useful to realize that there’s a viewpoint component to this, though.

      Speaking as a fellow moneyhead, though, I’d say try not to overanchor on the net worth as a number; it’s always going to go up and down, and its purpose is to support you. For some of us, the worrying is inherent, so no net worth number will change that.

    2. Tris Prior*

      I could have written this! I’m trying to save like mad because I’m terrified of looking for a new job in my late 40s (I am a woman and I look older than I am).

      One thing I’ve done – which probably runs counter to FIRE but is making me feel more secure and is probably smarter given the instability of my job – is lower my 401k contribution to the company match and putting that money into my emergency fund instead. I’m actually going to probably move some of it into my Roth since you can withdraw contributions without penalty, so if I don’t need it then it ends up being retirement savings. If I do need it, then I can get at it without penalty. It feels a little safer to me.

      I don’t think there’s ever a time in life when we can stop worrying, at least not for those of us in the US who can get wiped out by a serious health diagnosis. God forbid if it’s dementia! (been there, with family members; they were big savers but their care still wiped everything out.) I know that’s a downer. :(

      1. Mazzy*

        Thanks for this, no you’re not being a downer, I’m and maybe we are, the type who knows they’re not going to be able to roll with the punches so we want to prepare beforehand! I’ve struggled with the 401K thing myself. This year, I am maxing, but you’re right, it’s not always the absolute best method. Most don’t have unlimited options and most have fees, and also, depending on how political type issues play out, it’s likely that taxes could be higher in the future, if not at the federal level, then at the state level, so the current tax savings might not be worth it at every salary level. Though I’ve heard a few times that 401Ks are not touchable in bankruptcy court, if it ever comes.

    3. Colette*

      I’ve been laid off 3 times, once in my early 40s, and it’s survivable. You have an emergency fund; you have marketable skills – if you lose your job, you will be OK. And there are many other ways this could play out, from keeping our current job as is to minor changes to being moved to another job inside the company.

      And while losing a job does hurt your net work in the short term, money is for spending, and emergency funds are for emergencies. That’s what they’re for.

  80. cmcinnyc*

    The holiday season at work is on my last nerve this year. I’m not religious, I’m not all into the holidays, but I’m usually fine with just gliding through it at work and doing the least acceptable amount. We have a new department head and while I respect that she’s trying to improve the culture in our group CHRISTMAS ISN’T IT. I’m not a Christian, a LOT of people in this dept are not Christians, and the new team keeps slipping up. They correct themselves but it’s enough that my holiday chill is pretty much gone. Especially as they now want to add, at this late date in December, an “opportunity” to make a charitable donation as a group. People, I’ve been shelling out since Giving Tuesday. I got an emergency appeal from an organization I care about this morning, and I will chip in (sadly, not an appropriate organization to suggest the group donate to). And it’s NYC: I have myriad cash tips to distribute to the people that make my life easier all year (like our building porter & team). I am now officially Scrooge and the Grinch rolled into one. I am NOT going to the department lunch, I am NOT going to participate in this swell opportunity to shed more cash unexpectedly, and I am NOT going to worry about it.

    TL;dr The earlier the Xmas season starts, the sooner I am emotionally done with it.

    1. Fikly*

      The more I hear stories like this, the more I appreciate that my team’s “end of year” celebration/gift exchange is in January. Completely divorced from any holidays.

      2. cmcinnyc*

        I am 100% over celebration and gift exchanges at work period. If we’re not celebrating an actual business win, and the gift is anything but MONEY or EXTRA PTO, I am done I am done I am done.

  81. EDinTX*

    This week I went to an ordinary meeting and discovered my company has sold its operations in my state. I got an offer and severance/bonus package from the new company that is ok pay and location-wise, but I’m slowly finding out that the benefits at the new place are terrible, including only 40 hours of PTO a year. It works out in total to be a small pay cut and probably a decrease in quality of life. But I moved across the country for this job only a year and a half ago! And it was the best job I ever had, with the best benefits and best boss! Six months ago I felt secure enough to buy a house and adopt a dog. So now I’m stuck. I’ve also had to announce this to people and lay off some people, and it’s a sad, sad week.

  82. SaffieGirl*

    I am a new manager, and a situation recently came up where another manager and myself are seeing the same issue very differently and I would like others perspectives: one of my staff members recently went on leave for a medical procedure. During an all department meeting someone asked if anyone had heard how my staff member was doing. “Pam” responded that she had been in contact and my staff person was doing well and things were going better than they expected it to. Pam’s manager (not me) believes that this was inappropriate, would have been upset if it had been her being talked about and brought up HIPAA laws. We are not subject to HIPAA (we are not healthcare affiliated in any way), and this was not a comment that seemed out of line to me, but do others read this as Pam crossing a line or saying something she shouldn’t have?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      How much detail did Pam go into? If Pam said said something like, “I’ve been in contact with Coworker. They are doing fine and things are going better than expected” that seems…really innocuous.

      If it was more like, “Coworker is doing really well with XYZ in physical therapy, but struggling to go to the bathroom on their own and has a nurse giving them sponge baths hourly (doesn’t that sound nice?!). Also, here are some photos of them getting a sponge bath!! I’ll post them on the company intranet!!!” then…yeah, that’s inappropriate.

      It’s fine to know that OtherManager wouldn’t want to be talked about; it’s odd that they think their level of privacy preference is a universal (unless it was closer to my latter, sarcastic version).

      1. SaffieGirl*

        While I don’t remember the exact language, the comment was pretty close to “x is doing well and going better than they expected to at this point”. Thanks for the perspective!

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Seems OK to me. If I told a coworker about my medical issue while I was on leave, I’d expect them to share that with our other coworkers unless I asked them not to. HIPAA definitely does not apply. The only concern I could think of is if Pam and your staff person were particularly good friends outside of work, and then only if Pam had shown poor judgment before and gave substantial or sensitive details. A general status update with a generality or two about their condition doesn’t seem at all inappropriate.

      Maybe point out that your staff member told Pam, a coworker, this information? She’s not a family member or (I assume) a childhood friend or anything. There’s no reason to believe she told Pam any more than she would tell any other coworker…although this would have been easier to accept if Pam had told you and your staff member’s direct coworkers individually, rather than a group, some of whom your staff member might not even know? How big is this department, and how well does Pam know everyone in it? If it’s 100 people and she doesn’t know most of them by name, the other manager’s reaction is more understandable.

    3. fposte*

      HIPAA doesn’t apply, and the fact that Pam’s manager thinks it does casts some doubt on her take. If your employee was out on FMLA, there could be a concern if she were being contacted for work reasons, but that doesn’t sound like why she had been contacted or what Pam’s manager was worrying about. I think PM just is somebody who’d like to be more private and is assuming that as a rule rather than a preference.

    4. Mediamaven*

      If it’s exactly what you said then I don’t see the problem. People love to throw out HIPPA when it doesn’t pertain at all. If everyone know that he was having a procedure and he’s doing good I don’t get the concern.

    5. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      There’s no problem with this because a) HIPAA doesn’t apply to non-medical personnel, and b) “Pam is doing fine, better than expected” is not medical information. You could say the same thing after any unpleasant life event, like a natural disaster or evacuation or death in the family.

    6. irene adler*

      All is fine-as others have said- unless the Other Manager has been asked by your staff member on leave not to have her medical status or situation discussed at work. In which case, Other Manager should have fielded the inquiry.

      Just cause I’m snarky, I’d ask Other Manager to cite the HIPAA code that pertains to this. I recognize HIPAA does not apply. It’s just that, when folks get all “know-it-all” I like to ask them to prove their assertions. This tends to irk them. It also shuts them up.

  83. Analytical Tree Hugger*

    Job search question: Do either of these seem like yellow flags?

    #1: The company sends a data analysis skills evaluation (i.e. a set of data, plus questions to answer). They say it should “only take about 4-6 hours.”

    When I mentioned that time to my friends, they all thought that seemed like a lot of time.

    #2: After I send my results back in, the company told me they were disappointed that I didn’t finish. They did push me through to the next phase, but told me to think about how I would answer the remaining questions.

    First, the instructions said that finishing wasn’t necessary. Second, I gave a high-level outline of what I would have done to answer the remaining questions. Third, the position is for someone with 1-3 years of experience; I have 6+ years of experience in data analytics in an allied field, looking to shift to this field. After ~6.5 hours, I wasn’t able to finish answering all of the questions, so I’m doubtful someone in the 1-3 year range would be able to finish in that amount of time.

    What are your thoughts?

    1. Krabby*

      Someone with 1-3 years of experience is more desperate for a job/inexperienced, so they will fudge the time and spend as long as they need to finish the assignment (actually, a lot of people will do that). It’s given the hiring team an unrealistic view of what’s possible in their time frame. I’d say that’s likely more indicative of bad hiring practices than their culture though. The fact that they still pushed you through to the next round makes me think that it’s even less of an issue.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Good point about how many applicants would sink more time into the effort. I…wasn’t willing to do so XD

        And thank you, it’s the culture I’m worrying about.

    2. J.B.*

      I would say that is at least an orange flag. I interviewed at a company that had really nervewracking hiring practices including a stupid test and group interview. They talked about work life balance but really seemed to want driven people who wouldn’t complain. Inside information confirmed this.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Ooooh, yeah, I am not one to keep mum about problems, so I shall have to investigate their culture on that part. Thank you for the perspective!

    3. CatCat*

      I think an exercise that takes more than an hour is a yellow flag. More than 2 is a red flag. 4-6 hours is a red flag parade.

      But I’m not in the data analysis field so I don’t know if that might be normal.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Yeah, I’m not sure either. For me, it takes 1-2 hours of exploratory analysis to wrap my head around the data structure and content, so I could see 4-6 being reasonable for an evaluation, though the amount and complexity of the questions seemed a bit much. But maybe I’m slow?

    4. irene adler*

      My thoughts: You should submit a bill for the work you did for them.
      If this was to evaluate your skills, there would be no reason to make the “disappointed that I didn’t finish” comments. Or to ask how you’d answer the remaining questions. They would see what you did, what you didn’t do and then make an evaluation of your ability to do the job. There’d be no reason to get back to you for additional work.
      Is there really a job or is this some ‘creative genius’ trying to get free labor?

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Haha, don’t tempt me!

        To be clear, the internal recruiter specifically said not to do additional work, just be prepared to answer questions in the next round interviews. And, I stopped partly because I felt like what I had finished was a good example of my technical/analytical skills.

    5. I am gonna make it through this year*

      I think 4-6 hours is too long. I’d wonder at what they were looking for in specific that would take that long that couldn’t be done in under an hour.

      The skills tests I’ve had at interviews are generally under a half hour and those make sense to me. Giving you take-home work that took you long than it should have and you have more experience? This wasn’t well-crafted.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Thanks! I agree, not super-well crafted.

        In their defense, they made a bad hire who didn’t have strong analytical skills, so they are hiring a replacement. I think the company realized they needed that skill after they hired, so now the company is probably trying to avoid that this time around.

    6. Fikly*

      Have you had any interviews? How many? Unless you’re one of the final candidates, asking you to spend 4-6 hours on anything is outrageous.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Sorry I should have said: This was sent after two phone interviews (HR, then the…hiring manager? Senior team member? I didn’t get clarity on that).

        I think I’m one of the finalists? At least, I don’t think they would take time to evaluate all of these files (they were kindof complicated) for more than a handful. Then again, pre-interview questionnaires are a thing (at other jobs I’ve applied for), so…

        1. Fikly*

          Unless you’re moving for this job, being a finalist after two interviews that are not in person would be a red flag for me.

    7. Zahra*

      Only 4-6 hours?!?

      I nth the statement that it’s a lot of time for a pre-interview skill assessment. Is the new field so different that you’d need to go after more junior positions? In the past 5 years, I’ve worked with incentive programs data, web traffic data, geographical data, call center/IT support data. Data is data to me. You just need to know the context of the data you’re analyzing. And that’s quickly learned.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Sorry, I should have said: The skills test is the third stage, after two phone interviews (HR, then…hiring manager or senior team member).

        Lower level jobs might be necessary for a few reasons:
        1) It’s a really niche and competitive field (corporate sustainability)
        2) Very few jobs are available in my area (I’m willing to move, but competitive field + out of state candidate = NOPE)
        3) I don’t have a traditional analytics background (i.e. no math/statistics degree) and folks in this particular field who don’t have that have MBAs.

        Otherwise, I agree that context can be picked up easily across fields.

        1. Zahra*

          Ah, I get you for the lower-level jobs. I don’t have a “traditional” background either. Just a lot of DIY and then a master’s degree in Business Intelligence. We did have stats classes, but it’s been almost 10 years at this point and I haven’t used stats since.

          Still, 4-6 hours will result in a skewed hiring pool, with more men making it than women. As much as I dislike it, women are still mostly responsible for the second shift (meals, kids, etc.) and have less time and energy to devote to skill tests. 4-6 hours is half a day or a full evening. Having a kid and being in charge of the whole evening means I couldn’t start a test before 9 PM. Whereas most men in IT can say “sorry honey, I have a skill test so I’ll be on the computer (in a separate room) all evening long” and start at 6 PM. That will give you, on average, very different results.

          1. A*

            Oh gosh, great point! I didn’t even consider the gender disparity (single, no children, just lots of plants). That’s just a whole ‘nother level of why this wasn’t a great assessment…

  84. Krabby*

    I’m looking to implement a survey for our employees to anonymously provide feedback about their managers on an annual basis. Right now our managers only receive top-down feedback and I don’t think it’s doing them any favours.

    Does anyone have any suggestions on good questions to ask?

    1. Piccolo*

      There are good resources online for this. Phrasing is more important than what you’re asking. Also, making it actually anonymous… if everyone has a unique link you can easily track it. I don’t feel that comfortable being honest with my boss when it could affect my job.

    2. irene adler*

      Take lots of pains to make this survey truly untraceable. Bosses sometimes take out their emotional reactions on their reports when presented with ‘survey results’ which they know consist of their reports comments.

      Is this survey to pinpoint bad management behaviors or to understand how the employees ‘feel’ about how they are treated by their direct boss and by the company itself?

      1. Krabby*

        It’s really both. I’m in tech and we have a lot of very new managers who think they’re doing much better than they are. They don’t meet with their employees often enough, they aren’t transparent about what their managers are telling them to focus on and many of them are way too soft or way too harsh in their feedback. I’m trying my best to coach them and show them how they can improve, but that’s hard to do when there’s nothing coming from their reports to reinforce that they need to change.

        My plan is to use a generic survey link for each manager and send it to all of their reports so even I don’t know where the comments are coming from, and then make it clear in the survey instructions, “This survey has been set up to allow you to anonymously provide feedback to your manager. Neither HR or your manager will be able to connect you to your feedback unless identifying details are included in your comments. Unless the feedback veers into direct and personal attacks, your words will be provided to your manager verbatim.” Or something along those lines.

        Based on the industry we’re in (everyone here could get another job somewhere else in the time it took me to fire them), I’m actually not too worried about the fear of retaliation silencing anyone. I just want to give our employees an avenue to provide feedback.

    4. Fikly*

      Start low stakes. No one is going to believe it’s anonymous, regardless of assurances, until you prove that someone can say something negative and not suffer consequences.

    5. Pippa*

      All of the above plus – don’t ask demographic questions. How many years experience? How many with the firm? Etc. All those surveys get essentially no opinion answers from me.

  85. Social Media Job Hunter*

    I’m a fairly new social media person (this was my first job, transformed from an internship to a full time entry level job) and after spending three years in entry level and one on the internship now I’m looking to move to my next job. (No further growth at current place.) I’m wondering where I might find the average metrics for a good social media manager? I’ve really grown our followers across all platforms (by 50% on twitter and 30% on Facebook— talking about several thousand not several hundred), but I’m a department of one who never was given funds for any professional development or conference attendance. Is this good? Will I be able to find a job ok?

    1. Havarti*

      Those percentages look good – make sure they’re on your resume. Have you just tried searching online for metrics? Sounds like you’re fairly young but yes, you’ll be able to find a job. Good luck!

  86. Globo Gym Purple Cobra*

    ** Salesforce in non-profits

    VetForce, a Salesforce created program for Veterans and spouses, provides free training and certification through their Trailhead learning platform. I’m considering the training/certification but not sure if it’s common in non-profit. I’ve been in non-profit for a long time but never with an org that used Salesforce although I’ve read it on job description skills lists. I’m very analytical and love to work in a database and data science-focused roles.

    What sized non-profit would typically use Salesforce and primarily for what functions?

    Is a Salesforce Admin certification a reasonable level of knowledge that a non-profit would be expecting someone to have? I’m reading the other levels and they seem very advanced.

    I welcome your questions to help determine if Salesforce is my right pursuit. You might know the qualities, interests, or skills someone would need to take this on.

    1. Diana*

      Salesforce isn’t used in non-profits as widely as it ought to be, but I do expect that to change in the next 5-10 years. Most of the time it’s used to manage donor databases, though I’ve personally worked at non-profits which used it for recruiting. It’s database software which is so widely used that it will plug into anything else in a tech stack. Perhaps the more important question is around your own career path – a Salesforce certification is very fungible, and would be useful if you started trying to transition into a for profit role.

      1. Globo Gym Purple Cobra*

        Thank you for your response. I see it on some job listings but I haven’t really paid attention or can’t recall the non-profit size/type. I will continue to do research. While it is a free program and certification, it takes a lot of time and mind investment and I want to make sure that it’s worth that.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I work in a non-profit (~30 staff). We do use Salesforce in a very limited way, on the programs/impact side (i.e. not development/fundraising). I agree with@Diana, it’s probably not common or expected for non-profits, since there has been slow uptake on the tool (I don’t use it, as I rarely work with external parties).

      1. Globo Gym Purple Cobra*

        Thank you for your response. I see it on some job listings but I haven’t really paid attention or can’t recall the non-profit size/type. I will continue to do research. Sounds like larger non-profits, who can afford the product and have the staff to use it, maybe where I’ll find Salesforce as a needed or desired skill.

        1. my work uses Salesforce*

          Salesforce has a foundation that will grant a certain number of free licenses to nonprofits and educational institutions. I don’t know if there are certain eligibility requirements or not, but it is possible for smaller institutions to be able to afford to use Salesforce.

  87. cactus lady*

    I was talking to my coworker about something that happened years ago, and I’d love some ideas of how it could have been handled better.

    I worked in a very old building and they turned the heat off over the weekends to save money. They would turn it back on sometime in the middle of the night on Sunday so the office would be a reasonable temperature on Monday morning. One Monday morning in winter, we arrived to find the windows had been left open all weekend with the heat off and it was FREEZING. Like, under 40 degrees (f) when we got there, and I think the warmest it got was around 45 degrees in the afternoon.

    Big Boss wouldn’t let us leave. He made us sit in the freezing office and “work”. No one had a laptop so we were all tied to our desks, shivering in our parkas and hats and gloves. In retrospect I wish I’d pushed back more instead of just sitting there and suffering, but did I really have any standing to do that? Are there OSHA laws about office temperature, or just guidelines?

    1. CheeryO*

      I believe that OSHA has temperature guidelines but can issue citations if the temperature is cold enough to create a hazard to employees (hypothermia, etc.). Whether or not <40 degrees F is "hazardous," I think it's completely ridiculous and you were entitled to push back without concrete legal backing. If you need a parka and a hat and gloves to be able to work indoors, that is not acceptable. Also, that's terrible for the plumbing! I can't believe they didn't have issues with the pipes freezing.

    2. TiffanyAching*

      No advice, just commiseration. A few years ago my office area was renovated, and it ended up that the HVAC system was both old and the wrong size/power for the space. It was an extra cold winter that year, and even though the thing was programmed kick on at 5am, my office was very frequently in the 50s when I arrived at 8am. It would warm up eventually, but also randomly spit out cold air. I spent most of that winter wearing 2 pairs of socks and leggings under my pants, with a blanket and clutching endless mugs of hot tea.

    3. irene adler*

      I get asthma attacks in weather that cold. Not life-threatening, but enough to make working difficult. So I’m not gonna stick around for that.

    4. CM*

      I agree with you that this was not a reasonable request.

      I think the easiest way to get out of it would have been to use PTO if you had it available. You shouldn’t have to, but it would have been a semi-nonconfrontational way to defect from the situation. Alternatively, you could have all tried to push back as a group and said, “Bill, we can’t work this way,” and refused to do anything until he came up with a better solution. Alternatively, you could have pushed back alone and said, “It’s really unfortunate that someone left the windows open, but that’s the situation we’re in, and I don’t think it’s reasonable to ask us to work in the cold like this.” You don’t need to cite a law in order to be correct that it’s unreasonable.

      However, the last option carries more risk because you’re going out on a limb by yourself.

  88. Kelly Kapur*

    Any advice on writing a letter for a disability?

    I have autism and easily get overstimulated. I need to have a desk where people can’t walk behind me. Not only is it distracting (as it is for most people), but it’s do disruptive, I literally will have a panic attack and have to leave work. Ideally, I have my own office where I can turn off the fluorescent lights and not have to listen to everyone’s music playing simultaneously, but at the very least, I need a desk in the corner or somewhere that I can at least see people when they’re coming up to me.

    I’m worried that even though it’s covered under ADA, people have really negative views of people with autism, and because I “seem normal,” it’s going to cause social problems at work with people thinking I coerced HR into giving me special treatment. I already feel the negativity coming towards me, how everyone wants their own office, and no one likes being interrupted. For me though, it feels like I’m being tased. For a neurotypical person, the feeling is the difference between someone tapping you on the shoulder, and someone stabbing you in the neck with a stick.

    At my last job, the company was big enough that no one really noticed if I didn’t sit at my desk, so I didn’t bring it up. I would just go work in an empty conference room or in the “lounge” area of the office where it was quieter. The job before that, I got lucky and had a desk that was in the corner where no one walked anyway.

    I was offered a new job and now I’m savvy to the ADA act (I was not before), I don’t know if I should mention it. I could get a doctor’s note, but I’m not sure if I have to write my own as well.

    Thoughts?

    1. J.B.*

      As I understand from Alison’s previous posts, ADA is a collaborative process. Ideally if you prepare and take your documentation to HR they will put what you need in place and make it clear that others can’t retaliate against you. Now reality doesn’t always correspond so you might need to think about what to say to your coworkers…but since it will cause major work problems I’d start with ADA and see what happens.

    2. fposte*

      Seconding what J.B. says on the interactive process. However, I’d also say, since this is a new job rather than a change to an existing job, it can be easier to start casual. “I have a sensory issue that makes desk positioning an issue for me. Could I just ask you to position my desk so that people don’t walk behind it, or is this something I should do through HR?” If it’s anything other then a “Oh, we can totally do that!” then I’d reach out to HR and ask about the accommodation process.

      1. fposte*

        BTW, if the letter is easier for you, then you can have it in your armory, but I’d save it for HR, and I’d say informally first “It’s actually easier for me to write out–I’ve written a letter that I’ll send you.” And for the letter, short and sweet with bullet points. It’s about getting them to take away the important points, not about you explaining yourself fully. So basically

        I have an ADA request
        Sensory issues mean I need a desk with little distraction, so in a private location or with nobody passing behind me
        What do you need from me to help make this happen?

    3. Fikly*

      Fellow autistic here!

      With the ADA, you do need to disclose a disability, generally, but you don’t have to disclose autism. There are lots of other ones that would cover the accommodation you want/the problem you’re having. Sensory processing disorder has much less stigma associated with it, and is super co-morbid with autism – I’d be surprised if you don’t have it, and having a severe reaction to sudden sensory stimulus falls under it.

      Also, if your employer wants proof, that comes from a doctor. But what they need from you is what accommodations you want. Then you have a discussion about whether they are reasonable (which is what they must accommodate) and how they will implement them. There are great resources online to come up with ideas about possible accommodations – figuring out ideas to try and what might help can be tricky for the people who need the accommodations, nevermind the people who don’t understand what it’s like to be you.

      1. CM*

        +1

        Don’t be standoffish about it, but less is more with this stuff, sometimes. From the question, I sense a strong desire to defend why this is necessary and explain that you’re not just being weird and asking for stuff for no reason — and a strong anticipatory feeling of not being believed. My advice would be to lean AWAY from that impulse and focus on what you legally need to communicate to make the accommodation process happen.

        Don’t frame it as if your employer has the right to judge whether your medical needs are real or as if you have to convince them.

  89. little e*

    I’m conflicted. I had an in-person interview this week that I think went well. My current company gave me an off-cycle raise of 10%, but this job would be an increase of 25-30%. I know they appreciate me and I’m valuable to them but I need my salary to be at market level. I didn’t attempt to negotiate because business has been BAD (no one else got increases this year, not even COL). If I got an offer I would feel obligated to let my current job counter if they could. The only thing that is motivating me to move on is the money. I’m fine having been at this job for 5 years (first “career” job so I’m still young) and I’m fine with the work that I do. I know that working at a different job would be a good thing for my career but it would be so much easier to stay where I am. I am deep in the pit of inertia. I guess I just need some positive thoughts and encouragement.

    1. Bostonian*

      If business has been bad, maybe that’s another good indicator that it’s time to move on. Especially since the likelihood of you getting another significant raise after the 10% is pretty slim. So don’t feel bad if you decide to leave for the money. You’ve been at your current place for 5 years, and you shouldn’t stay just for the sake of staying. (This is coming from someone who recently had a very enticing opportunity come up, but ultimately decided to stay put; you also don’t want to leave just for the sake of something different.)

      Do what’s best for you!

    2. Diana*

      First of all, understand that if you didn’t get cost of living “raises” then you actually got a cut in your pay – inflation ate away about 2% of the money you made, compared to last year.

      Inertia is hard, but remember that increases in salary in your early working years help set up the floor for the rest of your career. You aren’t just getting a raise now, you’re raising the minimum compensation you’ll accept by 30% as well.

      If you’re getting paid 30% below market rate, I think you should take the new job and not look back. Your company is shortchanging you dramatically and is still struggling to keep the lights on. I wouldn’t even bother with asking your company to counteroffer – there’s no guarantee that they won’t change their mind and dock your pay again when they’re in the next round of trouble, and by then you may not have another opportunity available to you.

      At the end of the day, inertia is a really, really bad reason to stay at a company. Stay there because it makes you happy, or because you love the company culture or the mission, or because you’re well compensated. Don’t miss out on finding work that makes you happy, motivated or wealthy because “well, I’m already here!”

    3. Fikly*

      It’s not wrong to look after yourself. Appreciation doesn’t pay the rent. You have satisfied your obligation to them as an employee by doing your job, in return for which they pay you.

      If they have done something above and beyond, then think about whether the other company would do that. But if not, go for the more money, unless it has hidden costs.

    4. Flyleaf*

      Don’t ask for a counter. If they offer a counter, it’s probably best to ignore it. It’s likely that the bulk of the issues that have caused you to look for a job will not go away if you force them to give you more money. Focus on growing on your career, which should include more money but also includes professional development and opportunities to expand your skills/experience.

  90. Cendol*

    I recently changed jobs, and I’m having a hard time settling in. My new coworkers are friendly enough, but reserved, and I’m struggling to find my niche. At Old Job, I was very much a star performer and go-to researcher for certain llama topics, but at New Job, I’m relatively unknown, and internal clients (of course) prefer to go to my older, more experienced colleagues. The skills that made me valuable at Old Job (speed, technological know-how, wide range of sources consulted, and Llama Research expertise) don’t seem to be as important at New Job. I’m doing what I can to produce consistently good, detailed work for anyone who comes to me, but building connections has been a struggle.

    The gender dynamics are also different—at Old Job, the entire department was staffed by AFAB researchers, while at New Job, the department is 30 percent cis male, and internal clients skew 90 percent male. Whether this is actually a factor remains to be seen, but I can’t help but *feel* that my work is no longer being judged purely on its merits. It grates when I’m talked over in meetings, when my research suggestions are initially ignored (and later adopted once the clients realize I do know what I’m talking about), or when I see the Big Boss repeatedly consulting my male coworker about tasks I could complete. I’m a good 10-20 years younger than my new coworkers, with only 5 years of industry experience, and I’m sure that’s part of it—but I never felt like my age was an issue at Old Job, where coworkers were also 10-20 years older than me. (FWIW, I’m nonbinary and thinking about transitioning to a more “male” presentation with hormone therapy, so I suspect I’m also just hypersensitive to gender dynamics to the point of having a chip on my shoulder about it. “No one would talk over me if my voice were deeper,” “Big Boss would strike up casual conversations with me and take my research suggestions seriously if I were a man,” etc.)

    I miss my old coworkers, and since we’re friends outside work, we keep in touch and meet up often. Every time I leave one of these gatherings, I’m overwhelmed with regret! The regret fades in a few hours as I remind myself over and over of all the other actual work-related reasons I left Old Job (burnout, lack of flexibility, and a toxic adjacent department), but that initial pang…it’s tough.

    It’s only been a few months, but how can I stop myself from feeling like I’ve made a horrible mistake? How do I turn a blind eye to these gender issues (which I fully admit may be partially or entirely in my head)?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Hm…on the gender issues, I’d ask myself, “What evidence am I seeing that is conflicting with my assumptions?” as a check. You said your department is 30% cis male, so I am extrapolating that it’s 70% cis female, female presenting, etc. Observe how the others in your role are treated versus the male-presenting staff. Ultimately, I’d go with my gut (I have decent instincts in professional settings) on this issue.

      Some of what you’re describing *could* be attributed to, as you said, being a new and relatively unknown factor. On the other hand, it *could* very well be (unconscious) gender-bias.

      Like, Big Boss consulting your senior coworker on work you could do: That seems normal, since Big Boss knows Coworker’s quality of work and has an established pattern/relationship with them. Plus, just because you’re *able* to do something, doesn’t mean you’re *entitled* to take that task on. Now, if Big Boss *only* ever consults with male-presenting coworkers…then that’s evidence there is a gender-based problem.

      Again, your gut is probably your best guide, since bias problems can be subtle.

    2. CM*

      So, I read this cool book called So You Want to Talk About Race, and it explained microaggressions to me in a way that I kind of understood and was able to apply to areas of my own life even though I’m white. The upshot is that, if you’ve spent your whole life being targeted by a pattern of discriminatory behaviour, new actions that seem to fit the pattern have the same hurtful impact on you whether or not they were intended that way. So, in this case, when people talk over you or whatever, it makes sense that that individual experience comes attached to a bunch of other baggage. That’s not you being crazy and making things up — that’s you interpreting the situation within a larger context of experience.

      TL;DR I don’t think you need to turn a blind eye to the gender issues and I don’t think you need to convince yourself that it’s about you being hypersensitive.

      That said, it sounds like your new team is not super welcoming, and that sucks. You can’t force them to change their general attitude toward you, but you can try to think about what behaviors (of theirs or yours) you would like to change, and then come up with strategies to make that happen. So, if people are talking over you, you could think about what you might say or do in the moment to make sure you get to finish talking. Or, if you’re getting passed over for assignments, you could have a discussion with your manager where you ask why that’s happening and express your desire for more of that work to come to you.

      In other words, I think the question to ask yourself isn’t, “How do I become okay with this?” but “How do I resist and try to change this in a way that’s productive for me?”

  91. Chili*

    Does anyone have any tips for the best way to accommodate dietary restrictions for a larger event with plus-ones (so non-employees)?

    I am helping my office plan our New Year’s Party (actually falls later in January to avoid holiday season madness) and I want to make sure we have food options that everyone can enjoy. We’re already planning on having nut-free, vegetarian, vegan, gluten-free, kosher, and halal options (these are the options requested by employees for other meetings and events) and clearly labeling everything with ingredient lists. I was thinking of also emailing all the employees the planned menu and asking if they or their plus ones needed more options. Does anyone have experience doing something like this? Did it get too much needless feedback? A friend of mine said their company tried this and got a lot of responses that were more preferential than about restrictions (think, “I prefer cheesecake to chocolate chip cookies.”).

    1. Piccolo*

      Usually you email people before you buy the food and say, please email me if you have any dietary restrictions. I wouldn’t include the menu because yeah, you get random people commenting on needless preferences.

      1. Chili*

        Yeah, that makes sense. I just know that it sucks to be a person with multiple dietary restrictions and come to an event and find that there is an option that works for you but you really, really don’t care for it. I wanted to find a way to ameliorate that sort of situation, but I suppose the best solution is to have a wide variety of foods that serve multiple dietary restrictions (which is possible, but I’m finding difficult to explain to other people planning the party).

        1. Piccolo*

          I think lots of people are used to not being able to eat most of the food if they have dietary restrictions. If someone says, I’m allergic to 80 things, you can send maybe that one person the menu and say here’s a $10 gift card to buy your own lunch.

        2. Fikly*

          I am that person. It sucks, but I 100% assume there will never be anything safe for me to eat, and always bring my own food. Occasionally I am pleasantly surprised, and can eat something, but at least my way I always eat.

          1. Wishing You Well*

            I’m that person, too. I eat before I go to an event. Once there, I am either thrilled to find something I can eat or I put something on a plate and pretend to eat it to avoid too many questions. I don’t burden people with my multiple food intolerances. They’re unlikely to get it right anyway and I want to save all of us discomfort: emotional and otherwise!

        3. Rusty Shackelford*

          Even if you *don’t* have dietary restrictions, there’s no guarantee you’ll actually like whatever is offered. I think you’re doing fine just to make sure everyone has something they can eat.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      Try to make sure there’s an option that’s not all carb but still filling. A friend of mine travels heavily for work and often can’t eat anything because it’s all rice/carb/pasta and he’s trying to eat healthy-ish, which for him is low/no carb. He’s happy to eat around things if he needs to, but if everything is sauced or a rice dish, etc. it becomes essentially impossible. Or it’s just a salad. And when you’re a 6’6 man, that’s a lot of salad to fill you up.

    3. Daisy-dog*

      You are likely fine if you’re providing a wide variety of foods and accommodating the dietary needs of all of your employees already. By wide variety, I mean more than the standard buffet of chicken/beef, 1 vegetable, 1 starch, iceberg lettuce salad, dessert. I would email out the menu, but *not* ask for feedback on it. This would give everyone a head’s up on what to expect and who should eat beforehand if they don’t like the choices. You may still get feedback, but you don’t necessarily have to act on it.

    4. Diana*

      I think you’ve done enough to ensure that everybody can eat. You can go ahead and email out the menu but it’s as a courtesy, not a topic for debate. Let people know and make their own plans if needed.

  93. Anon4ThisOne*

    I’m having a meeting with my boss on Monday that I’m really nervous about. A few weeks back he said some things to me that were very upsetting (leaving out specifics because I don’t want to get into it here). He decided to say these things as I was rushing out the door to go be with my kid at the hospital (broken bone in sports practice). He’s apologized for his timing, but not what he said. I’ve consulted with HR and talked through a strategy to discuss this directly with him- my choice to do so, my HR is awesome and offered to be a part of the conversation or to speak with him and his manager so I didn’t need to, but I wanted to talk with him directly first, in hopes that we can figure it out.

    For additional context: We’ve been working together for about 6 months, and this isn’t the first time he’s done something like this but this was really bad. I’ve been here for 10 years, received promotions, large bonuses, and above average raises, have never received any negative feedback or criticism like this, and have been praised by senior leadership and board members for implementing some major things in the organization. My boss is struggling to create relationships here and while I’ve offered to be a resource, he’s refused any help, so I think some of this may be related to his own uncertainty.

    I have a plan, and a list of what I want to address, but I could do with some bolstering from internet strangers. Tell me about how you’ve successfully turned a work relationship around when it seemed hopeless. Tell me how you’ve rebuilt trust after a big thing with your boss. I don’t want horror stories, I’m looking for inspiration and ideas as i prepare for this Monday meeting.

    Thank you.

    1. Jan Levinson*

      It’s a bit difficult to give suggestions without knowing the context of what he said to upset you. Depending on what the struggles are/have been in the past, it may or may not be a salvagable relationship. I do wish you the best of luck, though.

    2. Turtlewings*

      I don’t know that this is especially pertinent to your situation, but… When I was first hired at my current job, I was the assistant to a woman who clearly felt threatened by me (I was being pretty obviously groomed to replace her when she retired, which she didn’t actually want to do). It was not a good first day. But I went out of my way to be kind and helpful to my new boss, to listen to her feelings and anticipate her needs, as well as learning my new duties quickly and performing them well. Sometimes I wondered if I was being manipulative, but I genuinely did want to make her life easier and give her a sympathetic ear. (She could be very prickly and negative, but she’d had a HARD life, had grown very frail and deserved some help.) Before long, she was saying how glad she was that I’d been hired, and I was the unofficial Boss Handler. A year later, she retired (at age 91!) and said outright that she was choosing to finally go because she felt like she could trust her job in my hands.

      I don’t know if my methods are at all applicable to your situation, I suspect not. But it’s a story of building trust with a boss who initially did not want me around, so I hope it will be helpful for morale if nothing else? It can be done!

    3. Forrest Rhodes*

      I think the list is a great idea. (My Cambridge spiral-top 5 x 8-ish notebook is my constant companion. I keep the old ones, and they go back decades.)
      Regardless of the reason for the meeting—work-related, family medical visits, conversations with the blasted phone company—these lists allow you to ponder beforehand exactly what it is you want to tell/ask; they insure that every topic you want to raise will be raised; and long after the meeting, your list and notes will provide a reference.

    4. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      I would think about the outcome you want from the meeting and try to make all your questions and explanations point like arrows at that outcome. Do you want more information about his thinking, or do you want to say your piece and have it accepted? Acceptance isn’t something you can control, but gathering information about how your boss thinks and what he wants should be doable. That at least can help you figure out where you go from here. Good luck.

  94. Embarrassed regular poster*

    Weird office dress question. To preface, my [male dominated] office is business casual and most people range from wearing khaki cargo pants and hiking boots to slacks and button downs. Jeans are allowed on Fridays, but no sneakers.

    My boss/department SVP wears suits 4-5 days per week (not required). Three other guys have taken to wearing suits or sport coats. One is my level (20 yr, mid-mgr), and the other are like 5 year guys, but they’re up-and-comer types. I am probably at the low end of the slacks-and-button down dressers. I do step it up for senior exec meetings and client meetings. Heels haven’t been a part of my wardrobe for years for foot reasons. But, my boss is a little on the judgmental side, and I find myself battling between feeling self-conscious and wanting to dress to my own preference. (Literally had a convo with my boss this week in which he talked about a former employee who had poor hygiene and wore weird trendy clothes.) I was wearing my one-size too large sweater that day and kind of wanted to melt away. I don’t think my clothes are out of line, and my hygiene is as fine, but I’m not stylish or fancy. To compound the concern, our newer admin is extremely stylish and well dressed. I don’t have female department peers to measure against.

    Trying to stay on my career track with my boss is tricky enough. Should I just bite the bullet and go more MMLaFleur for 2020? I’m cheap (but well paid), hate to shop, and go to the gym 2x per day, so it seems like I’m always showering and changing. It’s very easy to wear a sweater, crop pants, and ankle boots. It’s cold here and my legs are old, so I am not a huge dress fan.

    1. J.B.*

      Personally I do find dresses with leggings beneath to be both easy and warm. I don’t know if you would still not prefer but that is a possibility. If you want to look a little nicer without being too drastic, getting a nicer pair or two of slacks and blazer in place of a sweater, and button downs and slacks can look clean and crisp. And if interested, scarves can make things look a little nicer.

      I’m not sure where this office falls on the is it really an issue vs overthinking but it does seem like a little update might help you feel more in line with how others dress.

    2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      You can make small changes that level up your look without sacrificing comfort. Instead of an oversized sweater, get one that is more fitted. Instead of leggings, you can wear black wool slacks. If you wear a hoodie, trade it out for a nice cardigan. That sort of thing. If you can add in a few nice accessories (scarves, jewelry, etc.) that also can make a big difference in how put together you look. They absolutely don’t have to be silk scarves and diamonds.

    3. CheeryO*

      My gut feeling is that you’re fine. If you’re feeling self conscious, I would just make sure that your hair is polished and that everything fits well (oversized sweaters tend to read pretty casual).

      1. Daisy-dog*

        My thought as well. It’s likely nothing to worry about, but there’s no harm in making some upgrades so you know you’re dressed fine.

    4. Ada Doom*

      I think that flats can look just as professional as heels, so save yourself some pain there. I know lots of people who wear Rothys or similar professionally–whatever works as a comfy shoe, but looks more workish than hiking boots. Maybe find a blazer that fits well (you only need one, and you said you’re well paid, so maybe push out the boat here), and keep it on a hangar at your office, so you can grab it and wear to meetings? Also, this falls into the category of “being a lady-type-person is a minefield”, but the female-presenting version of wearing a tie to meeting might be: make up? Like if you’re having a meeting/clients, make a point of putting on some mascara/powder/a reliable lipstick, and it says “I’m making a particular effort, dangit!” (This is my go-to technique for meetings)

    5. Diana*

      As someone who struggles with this too – I sympathize! – often times the difference between a normal outfit and a Polished outfit is simply accessories. Here are a few types of accessories or wardrobe changes that are relatively stress-free to shop for and won’t radically interfere with your routine:

      – Add a few pieces of jewelry. Start small, with one or two rings, and find some nice necklaces. Subtle jewelry is the kind of thing that doesn’t necessarily get attention in its own right, but gives an overall Polished affect to an outfit. It’s the crowning touch, which says an outfit is Done, if that makes sense. No need to spend lots of money or buy flashy pieces if you aren’t comfortable with that.
      – Invest in nicer handbags (not designer, but polished and professional looking). These don’t need to cost a lot of money, but if you’re savvy enough to name drop MMLaFleur, you’re savvy enough to recognize a powerful purse when you see one. ;)
      – Buy Nice Coats! This is my New Years resolution for 2020. Coats are much less stressful to buy than other items of clothing (less weight dependent, lots of shapes are considered stylish) and you can wear the same coat multiple times a week. Since you said you’re cold all the time – I am too – it puts less pressure on your daily outfit because you can just keep your coat on all day. (Sometimes people notice, but if I just say “Oh, I’m the type of person who always feels cold!” nobody thinks twice about it. There’s always one of us in every office.) Coats are worth investing in.

    6. Another JD*

      Oversized clothes don’t tend to read as polished. A well-fitting blazer in lieu of the sweater will go a long way, plus they’re warmer. Most thrift stores have oodles of jackets to try.

      I don’t wear heels either, but nice flats/leather boots are just fine. I’m wearing a super comfy pair of ballet flats that have rubber soles, but the tops are patent leather and look sufficiently office-wear.

    7. Wishing You Well*

      Standard advice is to dress for the position you want next. Higher-ups will have an easier time seeing you as promotion-worthy if you already look the part. Up your style if you want or have a career track.
      My spouse did not wear the grubby but comfy clothing the other engineers wore at his company. He wore black pants and shoes with white dress shirts. He wore a tie and suit when customers were visiting. He did very well in his career!
      I’ll bet you can find great things to wear that will work with your lifestyle!

    8. Rusty Shackelford*

      Once you find a work uniform you like, it’s easy to buy it in multiples. I don’t think dresses are necessary, nor heels, and you don’t have to be either stylish or fancy. Go for classic. Full-length trousers are usually dressier than cropped pants, so I’d find one you like, buy it in all the colors (or a few of one color, whatever works for you) and match with sweaters that fit you. Also, think “third piece” – jacket, cardigan, kimono, scarf, etc. A cardigan over a simple blouse is more polished than just a pullover sweater, but just as easy. And a print (leopard-print?) or vibrant cardigan turns black slacks and a solid-colored blouse into a fashion statement.

    9. Embarrassed regular poster*

      Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I’ll fight my urge to argue why the fundamental problem I have IS the 3rd piece or jewelry/accessories, and I will just weigh these suggestions and figure out how to be more polished that works for me. These ARE good suggestions.

      I understand the comments about overthinking. . .maybe I could agree, but also my boss is kind of . . .it is best left unsaid.

      I also wanted to clarify that I don’t always wear over-sized sweaters. Most of my clothes fit, although I do wear the over-sized sweater with the pants that I pin the waist in (so many sins!). I try not to wear it regularly, but I had traveled halfway across the country and back for work on Sunday/Monday and just wanted to be relaxed. That’s what gets me! Those days are inevitably the days my boss spends an impromptu hour in my office.

      I also already do wear makeup and try to keep my hair polished. I’m just the person who stops at good enough most of the time (at the gym, I can shower, dry my longish hair, fix my hair and do my makeup in <30 minutes). I can't do lipstick for medical peeling reasons, and I won't do nail polish because I swim.

      Here's to a little better look in 2020.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Ok then, well if this was the day after a return trip, I wouldn’t worry too much. But if you’re concerned, begin stepping up your look a bit more.

        Simple, tailored, clean and classic in neutral colors is what you go with. Sleek. The simpler the piece though, the more tailored it should be. This look actually doesn’t need much accessorizing either. Think Audrey Hepburn. I don’t think it matters if it’s pants or skirts, but they must fit well. Consider a tailor if you need to.

        It’s also a good idea to keep a go with anything blazer at work just in case you need to throw something on in a pinch. Like when the boss comes.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        No worries, I’m guessing your regular look is probably enough. I had the misfortune of attending a meeting on Friday (usually casual day) with a visiting team and wasn’t expecting that entire team to be wearing full suits. At least I was wearing a nice sweater and necklace with my jeans and sneakers. So I get that feeling of being underdressed when it didn’t seem like it would matter.

        It sounds like there are other issues with your boss that are making you feel more out of place than you otherwise would. I have to guess that you could dress up in a fitted blazer and nice slacks every day and interactions with your boss might still manage to make you feel less than. If it makes *you* feel more confident, then definitely make sure to wear the best fitting of your clothes.

    10. Anono-me*

      It does sound like appearances matter to your boss. It also sounds like your co-workers have figured this out and have already stepped up the appearance part of their game. Unfortunately this increased contrast is not probably a good thing for you.

      Here is my suggestion:

      Maybe go Nordstrom’s or anywhere that offers a good professional shopper. Show them what you like to wear. Ask them to help you find comfortable, yet professional versions, that fit and travel well. (You will probably have to pay more than you’ll like for this.) Include one or two blazers and a couple of scarves that can go with almost everything. (Keep the most versatile scarf at the office.)

      Also, it sounds like you have several pieces of clothing in your wardrobe that don’t fit you well, if you love them, maybe you should consider going to a tailor and having them altered to fit. LIf you don’t love the clothes, and they don’t fit you well, and they are hurting you career-wise, maybe it’s time for them to find a new home.)

  95. General von Klinkerhoffen*

    Spouse started a new job this year. His salary was raised (with everyone else’s) at annual review time, when they adjusted his levels and added COL etc. He has just won an additional promotion.

    I have worked part time since we started having children. This means both that I’ve been thoroughly “mom-tracked” and also that I’m earning only a pro rated fraction of my headline salary. My career advancement has stalled because I can’t practically leave my very flexible employer (spouse’s job requires frequent domestic travel, which is an improvement on frequent international travel, but means I have always had to be physically available for the children).

    Anyway, his raises this year are roughly equal to my earnings this year. Which makes me feel very unimportant and resentful. He points out that I keep almost all of mine whereas his raise will all be heavily taxed, so mine is still worth more to the family (and covers more than the mortgage).

    How do you get past feelings of uselessness when society links human value so closely to earnings?!

    1. Turtlewings*

      Well, I think one important thing to remember is that you’re offering a lot more to your family than just money! Think about all the stuff you do every day that you don’t get paid for, and what would happen if you didn’t do it. Your attention and physical presence, all the little thankless tasks and emotional moments, are at LEAST as important as the paycheck you bring in. You are not remotely useless.

    2. Listen very carefully: I shall say this only once*

      Oh, General.
      I don’t have answers, but I am on your wavelength. It’s not just the money, it’s the prestige, too. My husband got his job because of my connections–don’t get me wrong, he’s good at it, but I was in the field here first, and tbh, I am more knowledgeable. Because of the jobs we ended up in, I’m doing a ton of unglamorous day to day cleanup and maintenance, and he’s presenting at national conferences. We used to at least go to some together, but now with a toddler, that aint happening. I know travel can be shared, but if one person gets paid to go and the other doesn’t, then who do you think is going?

      Are there any professional associations that you can work with that are either local/in state OR that do their business through online meetings? I don’t get to travel far much any more, but I’m on the board of our state professional association, which doesn’t involve as much travel, and does most of its work virtually. I think some of the sections of our national association do their work mostly through virtual meetings, and 1 big conference a year that you might be able to swing, or might be able to cry off of. That way I get to feel like I have value (and, to be honest, respect), but it doesn’t involve days away when you don’t have them to take.

      Also, and I hope this doesn’t set off weird comments below, but acknowledge to yourself and the world that this cannot reflect *your* value because the whole system just isn’t fair. It’s not fair that women get paid less on the dollar, it’s not fair that the mommy track exists, it’s not fair that childcare is freakin impossible, it’s not fair that dudes get promoted faster and farther and that compounds with every percentage increase, it’s not fair that moving ahead professionally requires you to have someone else to absorb unacknowledged work. And it’s not your fault, and it’s not his fault, and it’s not even his work or your work, it’s that there is a whole f-ed up system that has expectations and values that are not realistic and do not recognize the many ways that value can be measured, that are stacked against you (and me, and so so many other people–in obviously a lot of ways, but for now I’m ranting on the lady/mommy tax).

      And finally, if you want to take it back to some form of net worth, then crunch some numbers in addition to taxes, and you can put some pretty high [your currency] amounts on what you provide to the home that is not just your salary. The things you make yourself available for cost real money that has to come from somewhere (as you know, which is why you stay with the flexible employer). Actually doing the math I think would give me a rage-out, but maybe it would help you?

      Hope my unexpectedly strong feelings on this have helped in some way!

    3. seahorsesarecute*

      Try this; make a list of all the things you do around the house and then find out how much per hour a service would charge for that – house cleaning, laundry, cooking, yard work, extra hours of child care, dog walking and on and on. If you’re working part time and able to do all these things other families pay for, you’re adding all that value to your household income.

      Also consider that your spouse is right and you don’t have to listen to what society thinks you should make because his opinion is the most important one.

    5. LilySparrow*

      You are raising members of society. Raise them to understand that a person’s true worth isn’t measured in money.

    6. Maya Elena*

      So I recently started staying at home with our kids. (Talk to me in five years though, right?) For me, I look at it this way: it’s our family against the world. This may sound a bit old-fashiones, buy that’s the beauty of being a family unit: being one, you don’t have anything to prove to each other, you don’t need to compete with each other. If he’s a man you admire, there’s honor and pride to be found in being the woman he chose, and the woman who makes it possible for him to have his successes.

      Of course, maybe you don’t admire him anymore because he lost your admiration; and maybe he doesn’t express the gratitude or accord you the proper honor due you…. But I’d bet that that is a greater source of resentment than the mere fact that he makes most of the money.

    7. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Thanks, everyone. Perspective is difficult sometimes, and society is unfair in many (often intersecting) ways.

      Chin up!

  96. Burden of Blessings*

    I feel like I’m losing my mind. My boss has changed my job (both title and description) three times in the past 12 months. Each time, it’s been a good move for me to go along with it (increased experience, new skills to learn, full support, better pay), but part of me is just … fried. I feel like I go in every day and have NO IDEA what I do now.

    Asking him wouldn’t help – from his perspective I do good work (he’s openly appreciative), and really, his opinion is that I do what he asks me to do. Which I DO…but he is increasingly asking me to do things I haven’t done before, and it’s beginning to wear on me. I’m fine if I can puzzle it out, but we’re getting busier and busier, and the people I delegate lower level tasks to are still learning. There’s less time to puzzle than I’d like.

    In the past I’ve tried to balance this by switching from ‘high stakes new work I don’t know’ to ‘lower stakes valuable work I’ve done before’, when I have the chance, so that I can enjoy that feeling of competency and rebuild myself to tackle another new thing. And I do like the learning! But now, almost all my lower stakes stuff has to be delegated because of the time crunch – so I spend an increasing amount of time fighting my own ennui and psyching myself up to Do The Harder Thing.

    I’m sure that when I get some experience behind me, things will level out. But right now, I’m absolutely drained. In the long run, it will be worth it – my resume is growing, my team is wonderful, and my boss is (like I said) very appreciative. But in the meantime, all I want is about 14 days of no work, no people, no nothing…and I’m ironically going to visit extended family in a place I’ve never been, for 9 days at Christmas. My poor, battered, introverted self is slowly crumbling. Part of my optimistic self is saying that I’m blessed to have the job I have, the perks I have, the life I have – but all my efforts at resilience are being tested to the utmost right now.

    1. Diana*

      As I was reading that, my main thought was that you need a vacation! What you’re experiencing is super normal, and growth feels exhausting – but that’s a good thing. However you need to make sure you’re giving yourself some care and pampering! Sounds like your holidays aren’t going to be particularly peaceful or solitary (ugh) so maybe schedule yourself some relaxation on your weekends – treat yourself to a spa day or something. As soon as it’s feasible for you to take another day or two off, I’d take a small vacation, just you, and have some really dedicated me time. Congrats on the new roles!

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I don’t think you need to ask your boss for help. I think you need to tell him, “I really appreciate all of the opportunities grow and learn. At the same time, I’m inching towards burn-out. I need ____ for ____ period of time. How can we work with that?”

      It sounds like you have good rapport with your boss, so from what you said, a frank discussion seems like it would be on the table. Go in with some “absolute must haves (or I will eventually have a meltdown)”, like a two week vacation without any contact for work and be willing to be flexible on things the company needs outside of those. Plus, point out that the folks your delegating to are also needing time to be trained/learn, so this is an investment in the team/company’s future.

      The purpose of setting a reasonable length of time for this pause and regroup is to indicate that you recognize the company is growing and you don’t *want* to go into a holding pattern, you just need a breather.

  97. MsChanandlerBong*

    Our busy season is finally over, and not a moment too soon. My sanity was hanging by a thread. I have definitely learned to let some things go, but it is hard not to get frustrated when you have to explain to someone that 12 p.m. means noon and 12 a.m. means midnight, or that if you have two assignments due, one at 8:00 and one at 10:00, that the 8:00 one is due before the 10:00 one!

  98. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

    I ruined the department not-a-christmas-party “employee appreciation” luncheon everyone. I opted out of the $25 as-seen-on-TV-themed yankee swap and the EA rage-cancelled the whole thing, lunch as all. My opting out may have also contributed to two of my coworkers also opting out for various reasons — mine was I don’t want the junk and it’ll just go in a landfill, one coworker is a Witness so she opted out because it was too close to a Christmas gift exchange, and the other just doesn’t want to spend the money — but there are 17 of us in the department so it wasn’t like there wouldn’t be plenty of people playing…if they so chose. I tell you, this woman has the mentality of a junior high school mean girl. I’m not in trouble or anything (that I know of). Anyone else have stories of ruining the office party?

      1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        Doesn’t it though? And I only have to pay $25…to be appreciated.

    3. TiffanyAching*

      Not the office party, but my mother “ruined” Christmas with her side of the family when I was a child. As there started to be more and more cousins, Mom suggested that instead of buying presents for every cousin (~10), we draw names around Thanksgiving. Each cousin gives 1 gift, each cousin gets 1 gift — she got the idea from my Dad’s side of the family, where I had, at the time, ~ 25 cousins.

      Well, Mom’s brothers and sisters thought it was the most outrageous thing they’ve ever heard, and ever since that side of the family doesn’t get together for Christmas.

    4. Wishing You Well*

      Wow! I am in awe of your power and shiny spine!
      Are you getting secret pats on the back at work? I would thank you so hard for getting this thing cancelled!

      1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        I didn’t want to get it cancelled. In all previous years, we’ve just had a nice catered lunch as a group. This is super petty of the EA. If we had just had a nice lunch it would have been fine — even my coworker who is a JW would have participated if it was just a luncheon with little association to a “Christmas party”. We have a pretty diverse group too so I know two people are Jewish but they are both pretty secular and will exchange Christmas presents, so I don’t even think the gift exchange should have been cancelled for those that want to participate.

    6. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I began working in 1973. No office holiday party.

      I started working at a new company in 1974. I was told that they discontinued having holiday parties several years ago.

      I started working at another company in 1985 and went to my first office holiday party.

      I started working at another company in 1986. No office holiday party in 1986 or 1987. In December of 1988, the owner prepared to go to another state to get married. He said, “Oh, we didn’t have a Christmas party, did we?” Well, no, we didn’t, but no one had been counting on one. He said that in January, after he returned from getting married and going on a honeymoon, we would have a belated Christmas party. The office manager told me that she was going to take up a collection to buy him a wedding present.

      In January, the party got postponed to February. In February, it got postponed to March. In March, it got postponed to April. In April, it got postponed to May. And then the owner completely forgot about it. Meanwhile, the office manager never took up a collection for the owner’s wedding present. To this day, I don’t know if she didn’t take up a collection because we didn’t have a holiday party, or if we didn’t have a holiday party because he never received a wedding gift from all of us.

      I started another job in 1990, and I was told that the company always had a holiday party. So I was looking forward to attending one, only for the owner to send out a memo stating that there would not be a holiday party that year, but the company would close one hour earlier on December 24, so that we could make our own party. (At our own expense, of course.) We all planned to go to a bar, and we were all getting excited, but right before we were supposed to leave on December 24, the owner announced that two employees had to stay behind and work with him. Those two were very upset. So were the rest of us, and we got into the elevator and rode down to the lobby and silently went our separate ways. No one was interested in having a party without those two employees.

      That company did have what they called a holiday party several years later. Since we were going to be allowed to leave one hour earlier on December 24, we had to show up one hour earlier on December 24. Breakfast was provided for us to eat while we worked. That was considered to be a party, but not all of us agreed that it was a party.

    1. Mockingjay*

      Wakeen was fired. Fergus was hired to replace him. Jane and Cecil are still managers. Jane is training Fergus and has increased department productivity 5000%. Cecil is marking time until retirement, which isn’t for six more years. Tangerina won employee of the month and promptly gave notice. (Tangerina works for Cecil.)

        1. LilySparrow*

          Nobody will talk about him. But he hasn’t been around since Wakeen left, and I think something funny is going on with those two.

  100. Kimmy Schmidt*

    I have my first interviews this afternoon as the interviewer rather than the interviewee.

    I am more nervous than I thought I would be! I want to be cheery and welcoming and ask the right questions and listen well to the answers, but it feels just a little overwhelming. Hiring is hard, and props to all of you that do it all the time.

  101. Nacho*

    I work in a fairly specialized customer service role in a multi-national company. Because there are only a few hundred of us, we don’t really have strict KPIs. We just know about what the averages are of our role, and we try to stay close to them within a pretty wide range. Recently though, our Spirit team came up with the idea of doing a team wide contest where, if we hit a certain quarterly goal, we get bagels. Hit a bigger goal, and we get a full catered lunch. The goals were set by the spirit team, and we’re probably not going to meet the first, much less the second.

    My TL agrees with me that the contest isn’t very motivating if nobody believes we can achieve the rewards, and that the goals we picked might not have been realistic. Unfortunately, he also thinks that the Spirit team should be 100% in charge of the contest, and our unofficial ST leader has made it very clear that she doesn’t want the goals to be lowered. She says we “need the push to be more competitive in the region.” since the KPI this contest measures is below the regional average. Technically she’s only 1/7th of the team and has no real power, but she’s the most outspoken and the others usually defer to her on things because she’s the one who takes the most interest in them.

    How do I convince the rest of the Spirit team that a contest we don’t win isn’t a good idea, and why are my co-workers actively working against their self-interest by trying to make the goals higher?

    1. MsChanandlerBong*

      I don’t have any advice, but I can sympathize. My boss set a totally unrealistic goal for us. To reach the goal, we’d have to literally do nothing but work for 60 minutes an hour. No blinking, no going to the bathroom, no sneezing. He doesn’t understand why morale is declining.

  102. Disgruntled Vegetarian*

    Our holiday lunch had almost nothing that didn’t contain meat. I had Sad Salad (ie, contains barely any actual vegetables; on the plus side, it at least was not entirely iceberg) and some rolls. There was absolutely nothing that was gluten-free, including the salad – which isn’t my issue but if anyone at my company is GF, they were screwed.

    Come on, people! Order ONE meatless dish and something that doesn’t contain gluten! It’s not hard! I know for a fact that the place they ordered from has multiple options for both restrictions!

    1. Chronic Overthinker*

      That stinks. If I were you, I would mention something to HR or the event planner. It is good to have multiple options for those who have dietary restrictions or for whatever reason. I can understand a potluck situation, where everyone pitches in, but as someone who helps with creating food orders/lunches for the office I know meatless/gluten-free options are much appreciated.

    2. Daisy-dog*

      Ugh. I’m sorry – that’s always such a bummer. In my company, the person that orders the food knows that I am a vegetarian and is actually a vegetarian herself! But she doesn’t know how to find good caterers that give vegetarian options. I’ve given a couple tips, but I think TPTB must not approve.

    3. Colette*

      I totally agree they should order vegetarian meals since a vegetarian was attending, but am not sure why they would go out of their way to order something gluten free if no one attending has that restriction?

      1. Disgruntled Vegetarian*

        I dunno, I guess it never hurts to be inclusive! Especially when the place that’s frequently ordered from has plentyh of GF choices so it’s not like they need to do a lot of shopping around to find something suitable. A lot of people are low carb these days, or maybe just wanting to eat more veg – and the GF options at this place are actually pretty good.

        1. Colette*

          Then they should also have halal, kosher, vegan, etc. options, right? What about people who have allergies but don’t work there, should they be accommodated?

          If someone asks for gluten free food, they should provide it. Otherwise, there is no need to do so (and it’s not as easy as finding something that does not obviously contain wheat, it can be very complex to figure out.)

    4. Ravenclaw Rantings*

      You’ve got to speak up. I’ve been on the party planning committees at various jobs for a decade. Because of that, I’m usually good with trying to have options for varying diets, but I know everyone thinks about that. You can even ask them if they would ask people to tell them about dietary restrictions, because you’re probably not the only person who was unhappy with the food. I have a life threatening fish allergy so I’m not shy about needing to know the menu ahead of time. Apparently there is a sushi bar at my holiday party tonight, but lucky it’s not the only option.

      1. Disgruntled Vegetarian*

        I’m going to! I’ve been at my company for a while and this has never happened before. There’s always been a variety. So I’m not sure what happened this time.

  103. Chronic Overthinker*

    First, a humble brag. Yesterday I knocked it out of the park. Had two events going simultaneously at work, managed coffee service for one and lunch for the other, while making sure everyone was happy. Both events went smoothly and I got praise from my direct report. I was on cloud nine yesterday!!

    There is one thing I need to work on though; how to manage down time. Boss is fine with me doing pretty much whatever I want, as long as I am not distracted from tasks. I play occasional games online, but nothing that takes up bandwidth or can’t be paused/exited at a moment’s notice. It’s not really hurting productivity, but I’m wondering if I could be doing something better with my time. Thoughts?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Professional training seminars could be more productive. Are there any skills you want to develop?

      Or podcasts: educational (depending on the content), not visually distracting (like reading a book or magazine), easy to stop and start as needed, etc.

  104. Anxious about anxiety*

    What are some ways to tell a new, young (anxious) employee that they do not *need* to tell details about why they are unable to work, and that future employers might be crappy about those details, but also be supportive of them sharing if that’s what they want?

    Slightly changed scenario: New student employee at University who misses a couple shifts in the first couple weeks. She let me know before-hand, and specifically said it’s to do with anxiety, medication change not working, school, etc. I told her that’s fine, to take care of herself, and also reminded her that she can go to campus counselling if she needs/wants. She has worked out well, and having anxiety and medication myself, I know it’s a medical condition. By being upfront about her current state, I’m able to adjust her tasks, and have even given her free time/space to call the counselling center “right now” because I recognized the need, so as a job it’s working out and hopefully working for her as well.

    I’m not really sure, I just know that as a first employer, you feel responsible to help out student employees in the ways of employment, and some way to pass on a word to the wise that “There is nothing wrong with you, but please guard yourself from potential future problems, but don’t feel like I’m shutting you down.”

    1. fposte*

      I think I’d change the mission a little. I think it’s okay to get confidences about employee health struggles now and then, but I’d unhook it from calling in entirely. Just talk to her about the call-in template: “FYI, Beth, all an employee call-in needs to cover is ‘I’m not well and I won’t be in today.’ Sometimes with managers and co-workers you have a rapport where you sometimes talk about your health and that can be okay, but for calling in you can’t go wrong with a basic ‘I’m not well and I won’t be in but hope to be back tomorrow.'”

  105. To Say Something Or Not*

    I feel weird asking this question because I’m in HR (albeit in Recruiting only), but when do you know if you should say something about an employee making you uncomfortable? At any point? Talk to someone I trust first?

    Here are the details:
    This employee is in the UK (I’m in North America) so we don’t work together in person. Last year he sent me a message via LinkedIn that said he liked my picture with a smilie face at the end of the sentence. This was an unprompted message that I still don’t know why he sent it. It felt weird, I didn’t respond and actually forgot about it.

    This week he’s been helping my team with some IT stuff. Once everything was fixed I emailed to say thanks for all your help. He then IM’d me a few times (nothing overtly weird) but there was no reason for him to IM me and helpdesk rarely IMs people. Then right after his last IM he sent me a message on LinkedIn again that said “Good morning to you :)”

    I have no idea what’s going on, I’ve never even met him but this makes me uncomfortable. I really have no idea if I should even mention this to anyone. Being in HR I feel like I should have an answer, but I don’t. Any insight/feedback would be appreciated

    1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I think the first step is to address it directly to the person — let him know that you don’t want him to send you IMs or contact you through LinkedIn. “Did you have a business question Fergus? Please don’t contact me through LinkedIn, that isn’t an appropriate communication channel for work.” If he pulls the whole, “Just being friendly” bullshit that guys like this do, go ahead and politely shut that down. “Please don’t contact me unless you have a business reason to do so.” If after that he still persists then you can go to your boss and show that he’s been clearly told to stop and has chosen not to so there is a problem. But I suspect he’ll rage-quit speaking to you at all because your “being a B*”. So that’ll solve the problem.

    2. Another JD*

      What did his IMs say? A random “good morning” message doesn’t seem creepy or worthy of escalation.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I would find a random good morning message from someone I don’t work with regularly a bit creepy (cis male, mid-thirties). Given the gender dynamics of Western society (possible broader, considering what I know of my own racial culture’s history), I wouldn’t discount instincts about creepy.

      2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        If it were just once it wouldn’t necessarily be worthy of escalation, but given that he first commented on her photo totally out of the blue (creepy all by itself), keeps messaging her when they don’t have any personal relationship, and none of these messages have prefaced a work-related reason to contact To Say Something Or Not, this is definitely creepy.

      3. Arts Akimbo*

        He is 100% creeping on her. Trust your instincts when they tell you someone is creeping on you. Don’t talk yourself out of it or “look for evidence,” because creepers love to hide behind the veil of plausible deniability. We women are too often talked out of trusting our instincts, usually to our own detriment.

  106. Non-Exempt Newcomer*

    I just got my first job out of undergrad (yay!) as an admin assistant/receptionist type position. I’m being switched to non-exempt because of the new threshold change. I’ve never been non exempt before so I’m just trying to figure things out.

    Can my supervisor require me to flex my schedule on weeks I would otherwise be working overtime so I will no longer be over 40 hours?

    I work Monday through Friday during business hours, but a couple times a year I will work weekends or evenings too (this was explained to me before taking the job). Our overtime has to be approved in advance, and I was told that if it looks like I could be working overtime I should first arrange with my supervisor to not come in for an equal amount of hours I’d be working OT earlier in the week, if possible. If I do end up with working overtime I’ll be paid time and a half as expected.

    I guess there’s something that just gives me pause? Like I said, I’ve never been non exempt so I would just chalk it up to me being unfamiliar with this kind of stuff, but I wanted to get a second opinion (or two!)

    2. Natalie*

      Yep, that’s totally normal. The only state with daily overtime that I’m aware of is California. Otherwise overtime is calculated based on the number of hours worked in one standard work week. The employer can set the workweek to anything they want, but they can’t routinely change it to avoid paying you overtime. They also cannot flex your time over a two week pay period, it has to be one week.

  107. PolicyWonk*

    I work in a very large office building that has a small snack store on the first floor. the guy who owns and runs the snack store is very friendly. BUT (and?) every time I see him, since I got back from maternity leave in November 2018, he asks when I am going to have another kid/tells me it’s time. This makes me so uncomfortable that I basically have stopped going to the store. Last time he said this to me, it was when he ran into me in the hall, and I said “I don’t want you asking me about my reproductive choices. That’s personal” And he said “OK, you don’t want to talk about it now.” And I said “I don’t want to talk about it ever.” and he said “OK, don’t answer now. I’ll ask you about it next time I see you.” So… assuming I see him again, do I just repeat this script? Point out again that it’s personal? Point out that these questions could be really painful?

    1. Turtlewings*

      Ugh, what a jerk. I think the only thing that might get to him is mindless repetition. “Stop asking me about that. It’s personal.” “Stop asking me about that. It’s personal.” “Stop asking me about that. It’s personal.” Repeat until he gives up. You might eventually progress to “You’re asking me personal questions when I’ve told you to stop. What’s up with that?” and watching him (hopefully) stammer as he realizes there’s no acceptable answer to that. If he had a boss I’d say complain to them, but if he’s the owner I don’t know if you have any options there.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Ew.

      “I told you I don’t want to talk about that. Why are you asking me again, after I specifically told you not to?”

    3. LilySparrow*

      Why do you keep talking to him at all if he keeps being obnoxious?

      “It’s none of your business, and your rudeness is the reason I don’t come into your shop anymore. Just leave me alone.”

    4. Tea and Sympathy*

      Since he owns a business it might be effective to say something like “Your constantly asking this personal question is what made me stop coming into your shop. I don’t want to have to start avoiding you altogether. Please stop.”

  108. Little Beans*

    Do people not wear suits to interviews anymore? I just conducted 2 searches, interviewing a total of 8 people, and only 2 wore suits to their interviews. I work at a public university so our normal everyday dress code is pretty casual but we still have standard expectations and conventions around interviews – I personally have always worn a suit to every interview in my career. 5 of the other candidates wore business appropriate attire, like maybe what you would wear on a normal work day when you had an important meeting. One person wore a sweatshirt and ugg boots – to be fair, it is an entry level position and she is still a student who is about to graduate from our university, but she’s had internships and things before so I don’t know how she thought this would be an appropriate outfit.

    1. Diana*

      I don’t think people need to wear suits for interviews. Sure the Ugg boots girl is a college kid who hasn’t figured it out, but the 5 people wearing business clothes seem perfectly appropriate to me? The fact that 5/8 people wore clothing like that would indicate that it’s the social norm, regardless of what it might have been in the past. The point is to demonstrate that you’re a reasonable person who understands professional environments (so, yeah, the Ugg boots candidate is out) but there’s nothing conveyed by wearing a suit that isn’t conveyed by wearing button down shirts and work pants.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        I rarely wear a suit to interviews anymore and I’m a mature woman. I find the matching pieces tend to make me appear older and dumpy now.

        I do still opt for better than ‘everyday business casual’ though, or something like a dressy cardigan that is suit-like without being a suit, low heels, etc. I’m also in a fairly creative field that’s generally not formal.

        I don’t think you should discount the people who dressed in appropriate office attire. Unless you were interviewing for a higher level role that does typically wear a suit.

    2. irene adler*

      “we still have standard expectations and conventions around interviews “- how is this expectation conveyed to the interviewee?

      The advice I’ve seen is to dress one level above what the dress code is for the employer.

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      If you’re interviewing entry level candidates, bear in mind that suits tend to be expensive. If someone’s wearing business separates, that shouldn’t be a reason to take them off the table. The sweatshirt and uggs, on the other hand….

    4. Ravenclaw Rantings*

      I don’t wear suits to interviews anymore. I do dress in professional attire, usually a dark work dress. This has been perfectly acceptable, even for managerial roles at professional services firms. (I just started a new job on Monday). I think if I really wanted candidates to wear a suit, I would probably mention it. Even in financial service firms or law firms, unless you are the actual accountant, auditor, or lawyer, we don’t expect candidates to wear suits.

      Slight aside, but kinda related. My little sister is 20 and her university gives these mandatory professional training classes. But she thinks the advice they give is optional. Yesterday, she FaceTimed me while wearing a jogging suit and sneakers to her job in an office at her university’s hospital and as an “elder millennial” I was appalled! I yelled at her and all she could say was, “really?!” She honestly couldn’t see why wearing sweats to an office job wasn’t acceptable. She’s a brilliant girl. Junior pre-med student with a 3.9 GPA. But absolutely no common sense. She’s in the same age cohort of the candidates you are interviewing if that tells you anything.

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      I still wear suits to interviews, but I don’t discount a person not wearing a suit IF they are suitably dressed. Work dress with jacket is fine. Business separates, also fine. Sweatshirt and ugg boots… troubling. For me, the outfit someone wears to an interview isn’t a make or break thing, but it can illuminate other things about the candidate. For example, if I was already concerned about someone’s maturity, wearing ugg boots and a sweatshirt would be a very worrying flag.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      I would never expect candidates to wear a suit to interview for an entry level job at a university. That seems pretty out of line for today’s business-casual attitudes in general, but definitely for jobs outside of industries known for their formality. I agree that the sweatshirt and Uggs were too casual, particularly if it’s not a student job. I mean, at least wear a nice button down shirt and slacks/skirt, maybe even with a blazer, but suits are a pretty darn expensive investment for college grads looking at entry level university salaries.

      FWIW I did buy a suit for my first post-college job interview in the mid-90s because I thought I needed to, and it was a pretty good chunk of change that I could barely afford my senior year. I wore it to that one interview and never again. I did get the job, but probably in spite of being woefully OVERdressed (both style and culture-wise).

    7. CM*

      Unless you work in a business school, I think a matching suit is an overly conservative thing to expect. “What you would wear on a normal work day when you had an important meeting” pretty much describes every outfit I’ve ever worn to an interview and most of the ones I’ve seen.

  109. Carlottamousse*

    Do you thank clients who send you a thank-you gift at the holidays, or is that one level too much of thank-you’s? (we’re talking a box of chocolates, nothing extravagant)

    1. CheeryO*

      I think that’s too much and would personally find it a bit strange. I don’t think anyone really expects a response to their holiday thank-yous.

    4. LPUK*

      I agree – a quick email thanking them for the gift. Because I have worked for companies who had very clear gift-acceptance rules, I feel that a written record that I received something of nominal value, within the guidelines from client X is a good CYA – it keeps things transparent and open.

  110. Dezzi*

    What do I say to coworkers who loudly comment on my weight gain or ask me if I’m pregnant?

    For context, I used to be pretty underweight due to health issues. I got those sorted and have gained 30 lbs, which I’m thrilled about (I’m 5’3″ and gaining that much weight brought me to a size 6, for some perspective on how bad things were). These people making these comments are all women, from a different ethnic group than myself, and definitely seem to think they’re complimenting me by pointing out my weight gain….but it seems kind of inappropriate to be commenting on someone’s body at work? Like, what if this *wasn’t* something I was happy about? How can I address this, given that there’s definitely a cultural difference in play? Or should I just let it go and say “thanks, I feel great now that I can actually eat food!” or “nope, not pregnant, just healthy!” or something, since they obviously mean well?

    1. PolicyWonk*

      UGH! I lost a lot of weight to the point where I was scared about it and people kept commenting on it. (It was post-baby, so people I guess are buying into the lose the baby weight thing. The last time it happened I said “yeah. It’s actually really scary. I had mono and ended up in the ER” (which is true). I haven’t run into that person again, but I suspect I won’t hear more comments from her. I wouild choose either of the responses you suggested here, but without the “thanks” part.

      1. PolicyWonk*

        And I don’t think either of those responses is letting it go. they both point out false assumptions. But I think you can also say “and I’d rather not talk about my body at work. I’m sure I’m not the only one.”

      2. I am gonna make it through this year*

        +1 on the “lost so much weight it was terrifying me, but people kept acting like it was a great thing”. I’m back up to my body’s ideal weight now, but those two years when I wasn’t was just full of me being terrified of what was going on while everyone congratulated me on losing weight.

        1. Teach*

          Ugh – this. I had a terrifying few months with visibly swollen lymph nodes in my neck, weird blood work, and pounds melting off in the double digits. It was apparently viral, but I was referred to specialists and was sincerely worried about getting a cancer diagnosis…and treated to public congrats at work in my weight loss.

    2. I am gonna make it through this year*

      Is there a ring leader you can pull to the side and ask politely for them to stop since you don’t want to talk about your weight?

      Unfortunately, weight-policing is so common and mainstream that you may have to push back on this multiple times and be rude about it, which could burn bridges. I’m prone to “if I’m pregnant, it’s the longest pregnancy in the history of the world” or “not pregnant, just fat”.

    3. Auntie Social*

      Well, there’s “thanks for noticing”, “thank you for your interest”, and “yeah, doing better, thanks”.

      1. fposte*

        Oh, I like “doing better”–it’s treating the comment as a celebration of health and not of weight per se.

        1. Quill*

          I like this one too because it works no matter what your overall body mass is doing (gaining weight, losing it, gaining muscle…)

    4. Mockingjay*

      “I’m fine, thanks. Why do you ask?” *raised eyebrow

      Don’t justify or explain, just put it right back on them.

  111. Anon Here*

    First order of business:

    During some of the more intense discussions yesterday, someone commented using a nearly identical handle and saying things I don’t agree with. That was not me!

    Second:

    I’ll follow up with more. I just wanted to get that one thing out of the way. Too busy to write longer posts right now.

    1. fposte*

      Alison used to advise people not to use a variant on Anon for just that reason–it’s really hard to differentiate the various flavors of Anon.

      1. Anon Here*

        Yeah. I have commented here under other, more interesting names. I decided to make my handle more incognito for privacy reasons. So I kind of blend in with all the other Anons and only the regulars will recognize me.

        1. LilySparrow*

          I would gently suggest that if you want to be recognized and known as an individual, calling yourself Anonymous is…the opposite of that.

        2. WellRed*

          I think it’s time to come up with a new name.

          I did find myself quite surprised to see comments that I didn’t remember making until I realized it was someone with almost an identical name so I feel ya on that.

          1. Anon Here*

            I know. It’s not AnonHere’s fault. It’s my fault. I’ll try to come up with something different.

    2. fhqwhgads*

      I always assume any name with “Anon” in it is whoever wanted to be anonymous that particular post and that any other posts that may have the same name are not necessarily the same human.

  112. LQ*

    I wrote in an open thread a few months ago about my new employee who is SUPER extroverted and really wanted to check in a few times a day. I thought part of it was about her previous supervisor being overly hands-off combined with her being an extrovert and so she both wanted the opportunity to talk through things and was really nervous. (Her work didn’t change at all just her supervisor.)

    Good news is the last month has been much MUCH better. I’ve started dropping by her cube once a day for a 2-5 minute chat or less, sometimes social, mostly work. And other than that she rarely stops by or puts extra hours on my calendar. She keeps most of her stuff to our weekly check-ins and she’s gotten a lot better at what is and is not urgent. She’s also not letting the old supervisor’s behavior bother her as much anymore and so she’s way less stressed overall.

    Thank you for those of you who offered some solutions. Especially the comment about taking time after, I moved her one one one so I have lunch after which helped. But having her moving into a much more productive, less dramatic place means the times where she drops by I don’t feel like I’m having all my energy leeched out of me either. She hasn’t had a crying about workday in well over a month and that’s a huge win!

  113. Hopeful*

    I have a couple questions about contract-to-hire positions.

    For some background, I have been searching for a new job since July. I had a full time job with decent pay and benefits, but it wasn’t in my field and I was completely miserable there. With my girlfriend’s help, I have been steadily applying to jobs since then. I followed all of the advice that I had found about job hunting, but I’ve only gotten one interview. It was about a month ago and I haven’t heard anything since.

    Unfortunately, at the end of October I was laid off from my job due to a restructuring of the program that I worked on. Since then, I’ve still been applying to jobs but haven’t heard anything back. I’m getting burnt out on job searching so I reached out to a staffing agency. They gave me an option of three positions that are all contract-to-hire. None of them are in my desired field, but two are in the field that I was working in previously. They all pay below what I was making in my previous job and they wouldn’t offer benefits until I was hired as a permanent employee. I narrowed it down to two out of the three positions, one that is in my previous field and one that isn’t. I’m not super thrilled about either of them, but earning money is better than not. According to the staffing agency, positions usually convert from contract to permanent employment within 4-6 months on average. One of the opportunities would be a guaranteed hire as a permanent employee, given that they like my work, I’m reliable, etc.

    If I continue to search for a new job that is a better fit for me (and offers benefits) and I leave the contract position, would that be something that other employers would understand, or would it make me seem flaky? I’ve had a solid work history for the past few years. This is the longest I have gone without working since 2014, with my shortest position being 6 months. I know contract to hire positions aren’t the greatest but it’s currently my only option.

    I have been received unemployment benefits since I was laid off and I was approved for health insurance through the state. I would need to check and see if I would still be eligible if I got the contract to hire position. I also checked with the staffing agency and they would be taking out income taxes, so I wouldn’t need to worry about setting aside money for that.

    1. Hopeful*

      The last paragraph should say “I have received unemployment benefits…” not “I have been received unemployment benefits…”

    2. Colette*

      I think you can leave a contract job for a permanent job, if you are offered one. If you leave after they hire you as an employee, that’s trickier.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I don’t have any experience in contract-to-hire, so take this with a grain of salt:

      The company gives you no guarantee they’ll convert you to a regular employee, so if a co-worker broke a contract for an actual regular employee position, I would say, “Good for you!” If they broke it for a different contract-to-hire position, I would be more confused.

      If they were a direct report, I would be slightly annoyed, but mostly at my company for not just hiring in the first place.

  114. Rosy*

    Advice needed! What’s the best way to tell a potential employer that I received a raise and promotion and am no longer interested in their job? I’ve been in the process of job hunting for the past month or so, and I’ve had two interviews with a potential employer, most recently this past Tuesday. They indicated they were still interviewing other candidates and I should hear back in the next week or two. In the meantime I had let my current job know that I was looking for a new job, because I have a great relationship with my supervisor and coworkers, and wanted them to be prepared for my eventual departure. The main reason I was looking is because I’m being underpaid and I haven’t received a raise or bonus in the 2+ years I’ve worked there, despite the fact that I’ve increased sales on our most profitable account by 125% in 1.5 years. To make it more complicated, it’s my family business–my parent is the president/CEO, and it’s in an industry that is struggling right now. I love the company culture, benefits and WFH flexibility, but based on conversations about the business financials with my parent (who owns the business), I (mistakenly) assumed that I was ineligible for a raise or bonuses because they simply couldn’t afford it. But I had a really productive heart-to-heart with my managers and parent yesterday and they offered me a promotion and a significant raise. Do I just tell the hiring manager the facts, or is there anything I should/shouldn’t leave out?

    1. fposte*

      “Thanks so much for the opportunity to interview with XYZ Co.; I really appreciate learning more about your company and it’s clearly a great workplace. However, the situation has changed and I’ll be sticking with my current employer, so I’m withdrawing my name from consideration for the Mangler position.”

      1. Rosy*

        Good language suggestion, thanks! Follow up–is there a good way to say that I’d like to be able to reach back out if I’m ever in a position to do so?

        1. fposte*

          I don’t know that there’s anything that needs to be explicitly added on that; that’s more something they volunteer than you get permission for. If they say “Oh, bummer, please let us know if that changes” you can say “Sure will! I thought you were aces” (only slightly more formally), but otherwise, you can just email them on spec in the future or apply cold and let the memory of you do its work.

          2. Rosy*

            Update: Just received this response back: “Thank you so much for reaching out and I’m very happy to hear things are going well with your current employer. Let’s plan to stay connected and if anything opens up that you’re interested in down the line, I’d be happy to discuss.” Woohoo!! Thanks again for the help!

    2. ThatGirl*

      I wouldn’t share any details – just let them know that things have changed and you’re withdrawing from consideration.

    3. Fikly*

      You’re already treating them much better than the vast majority of employers treat applicants by not ghosting them.

      Bare minimum, I’m writing to withdrawal my application, thank you for the opportunity.

      1. Rosy*

        I’m hoping to leave the door open to working for them in the future; my current job is in an industry I don’t love, but I have a ton of opportunity to learn and grow my skill set here. The potential job would be a great fit for me because it’s the industry I’ve worked in almost my entire adult life (besides the last few years I’ve been with my family biz).

  115. bookends*

    Ooh, I have a busy day but I’ve been waiting all week for this! My organization switched from Outlook 2007 to Gmail/GSuite this week. We moved our email and calendars over already, and will move documents over at some point. This is the first time I’ve had GSuite for work and I’m excited to use all the tricks and add-ons to make my life easier! Does any have any tips/tricks/secrets?

    1. Anonymato*

      I like
      1) “Templates” (in the bottom right, next to the trash can) – if you use some repetitive emails
      2) snoozing emails
      3) being able to delay/Schedule send
      4) and also being able to “undone” Sent (just couple seconds)
      5) easy way to create Groups (listserves or email alias)
      6) color coding labels

      Good luck getting used to the new system!

      1. Teach*

        Schedule Send for the win! Also the integration with Calendar – you can send meeting invite reminders with one click. Link the agenda within the Calendar invite box, too.

  116. Ravenclaw Rantings*

    Hello!

    Does anyone have any advice to get over my resentment and hatred for my former job? Do you think someone can really get PTSD from work? I work in marketing/business development for professional services. I left a firm that I worked for six years to go to an international competitor. It seemed like a dream job on paper, but I quickly realized it wasn’t. My boss was terribly incompetent. The other members of my team and I would often have to stop doing our work to complete basic tasks for her, like drafting an email. She would make small but embarrassing client-facing mistakes, which we’d have to quickly cover for. We’d all come from horrible places so we were happy to be at
    a horrible place with great pay and great benefits. The workload was impossible but overtime was frowned upon, so I would work up to an extra hour, then clock out and work off the clock, just to keep afloat. There was no respect for personal time or boundaries. Not answering emails and texts far outside of work hours was not an option. After a year of working there I was reaching a level of burnout that it took me six years to get to at my prior firm. I would sometimes just close my door and just cry at my desk for a few minutes before starting my day.

    One Friday afternoon, my boss and I had a meeting with an internal client. She was over-promising a lot of deliverables, which was extremely frustrating because I knew I would have to actually complete the tasks. After the meeting, she asked me to drop everything and work on the project. After a few hours, she asked me to send what I had over so she could review it. We used Skype for Business and I got a message from the HR Manager asking me to come to his office. This wasn’t terribly odd, as we were on firm planning team together. As soon as I walked in, I saw my boss and I knew was being fired. I was blindsided. My boss said I wasn’t going to be a good fit with the direction the firm’s marketing department was going in. But my work product was good enough for you 10 minutes ago?!

    That was over a year ago. Since then, I’ve worked for myself, which gave me no personal time. I became sort of a recluse because I was home alone all the time. I decided to give the traditional workforce another try. I just finished my first week at a firm that I really like so far. It’s a better title with a significant pay raise, which was a real boon considering that I wasn’t working in the same field while I was self-employed. The distribution of work is manageable and I saw a colleague say he was unable to get to a task at 5:30 pm and would work on it tomorrow. I was shocked! Several of us started at the same time and I can feel myself telling them over and over how much I hate my old firm. It’s not something I’ve ever done before (and I’ve hatred plenty of other jobs before lol). My BFF is convinced I have PTSD but I’d feel so silly for getting PTSD from something as trivial as work– especially since I learned my former boss was forced to resign.

    What can I do to get over this? I don’t want to be a Bitter Betty, but I feel like that’s what I’m turning into. It’s very much the opposite of my personality. Is this worth seeking professional help to get past?

    1. Alice*

      It’s never _not_ worth seeking help. But obviously you have the self-awareness to see what’s happening. Try and change your behavior now that you’ve noticed it. Perhaps it will help if you give yourself a positive task instead of a negative one — ie, if a negative goal is “don’t tell a story about my old firm today,” a positive one could be “learn something about a new colleague today.”

    2. I Love Llamas*

      Perhaps instead of telling your new colleagues, write it all down in a private journal. Sometimes we just need to “get it out there” in order to let it go. You do need to rein in the negative commentary — even if they are sympathetic, you aren’t doing yourself any favors.

      1. Ravenclaw Rantings*

        Thanks! I always kept a journal since I was a kid but I’ve fallen out of it in recent years. I need to get back to it. There are six new folks on the team and each of us has recounted our horror stories from former firms. It was kind of a bonding session. But talking about it made me want to keep talking about it. And I can feel that urge to talk about it creeping up more and more. Writing it out might be a good thing.

    3. Profane Pencils*

      Only a professional can say anything about whether it’s PTSD, but it’s worth remembering that stress-related mental injuries (which is a phrase i came up with and not an official thing as far as I know) can be caused by anything. I was fired without notice from a job I’d worked at for two weeks, literally a day after being praised for my work, and I wasn’t given a reason.
      I absolutely felt the effects of that for a long, long time, even though I’d just started getting invested in this new place. It’s jarring and painful, ESPECIALLY when you’re blindsided like that, and it becomes really hard to break the association between what happened to you and everything your new boss does that is vaguely reminiscent of your old boss.

      And Alice is right: It’s ALWAYS worth seeking help if you are not happy with something about yourself. There’s no such thing as a too-small problem, in therapy work; if it’s obstructing your ability to live a fulfilling or happy life, you deserve help.

      1. Fikly*

        Hard disagree here only the only a provider can say whether it’s PTSD.

        People can self-diagnose accurately. Plenty of providers can misdiagnose. People have been in pain for years and felt invalidated because of providers who refuse to believe them/diagnose them correctly.

      2. fposte*

        I really like that phrase of “stress-related mental injury”–it makes it clear that you absolutely can be hurt by a situation whether it’s technically PTSD or not. In addition to I Love Llamas point about journaling, therapy can be a useful place for you to tell your story and find a more workplace-useful version of the narrative.

      3. Ravenclaw Rantings*

        Thank you! I’m happy to hear I’m not alone in still feeling effects of being fired. Especially when you know in your heart, you did your best. I’m going to try writing it out but if that doesn’t work, I’ll certainly seek help because I want to this be a place where I work for a long time.

    4. Rosy*

      Great suggestions so far. I also recommend therapy if you can do it, but even just commiserating with friends and/or writing it out might help. I super relate… I was laid off from a previous, very stressful job because they were downsizing. The way my boss chose to do it was incredibly unprofessional and frankly traumatizing–she asked me not to tell any of the employees I managed that I had been laid off for fear of causing panic, and weeks later, when I was still getting daily calls and texts from unaware employees about work-related matters, and after several of my personal pleas to her to tell the staff about my departure so I would stop being contacted, I finally told several managers I worked with in a flat and professional way that I no longer worked there. One of the managers confronted her because they were upset they had been left in the dark and asking me for work-related solutions when I wasn’t even employed there, and my former boss called me while I was on vacation and accused me of betraying her trust and lying to her. It ended up with me crying on the phone for 20 minutes while refusing to take the blame until she finally relented and apologized. It took me a really long time, a lot of therapy, and some bitchfests with former coworkers (most of whom had also been screwed over by her) to get over it.

      1. Ravenclaw Rantings*

        I’m so sorry that happened to you! Ugh, I don’t understand why people are like this?! While my team knew about my departure, my boss apparently kept my email active and waited to tell the remainder of the firm until a few weeks later. This was a multi-national company with pretty strict departure rules, so IDK how she even pulled that off. I found out that other teams didn’t know when people in other departments reached out to me via LinkedIn to try to figure out what happened to me. At first, everyone thought I was on vacation and after two weeks when they saw the departure email, they assumed I quit.

        The more I think about it, the more I’m sure I need therapy. I skipped over the fact that my boss found out she had cancer within my first few weeks of work. I literally held this woman as she cried and comforted her for the first three months of my tenure. There are a lot of feels of betrayal. I’m certainly going to look into therapy.

    5. Wishing You Well*

      Yes, you can get PTSD from a bad workplace. Yes, good professional help is worth it. You can learn a lot and make your life easier by identifying your triggers and developing coping strategies.
      Best Wishes.

    6. irene adler*

      Can’t argue with the suggestion of seeking professional therapy.

      When there’s things that I just cannot get out of my head, there is journaling.
      And, there’s writing a scathing letter to those who have caused your emotional turmoil. I mean craft the meanest, ugliest invectives you can muster up. Make it a long missive where you can get out every bit of emotion you have. Hurt ’em good!

      Then burn (or erase) the letter.

      I know, it’s decidedly low-tech. But I find it productive.

      I also like to chew people out when I’m in the shower. No one’s around to hear me and boy, I can get very mean.

    7. Quill*

      My pre-existing PTSD was definitely triggered by working situations in the past, so it wouldn’t hurt to go seek counseling by someone who specializes in stress regardless of whether or not what you’ve currently got going on is “actually” PTSD.

      Also: a subtype of PTSD, C-PTSD (or complex PTSD), is usually developed by being in a situation of consistently being forced to give up your boundaries and by people with power over you constantly changing their expectations of you / gaslighting, overworking, or emotionally or verbally abusing you. Burnout makes it worse, as does other sources of stress. People can also get it from being isolated in a stressful environment, such as being long-term caregivers to ill relatives.

    8. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think if you asking “Is therapy worth it” than it is probably worth it. I do think toxic jobs can really mess you up and so I would seek out something healthy you can embrace.

    9. TRIGGER WARNING- DISCUSSION OF PTSD CAUSES BELOW*

      So- I was diagnosed with PTSD by a psychiatrist 10 years ago.

      When I was first diagnosed, I found that most people viewed PTSD as something that only happened to combat veterans- there was a lot of skepticism that first responders (especially paramedics/ER staff) or survivors of sexual abuse could have PTSD. Somewhere in the past 2-3 years, however, there’s been a huge shift in how people regard PTSD- people (even some family doctors) now seem to believe that any difficult experience that results in lingering negative feelings/stress/anxiety afterwards is PTSD.

      PTSD actually has a really, really narrow definition. You can only be diagnosed with PTSD if you’ve personally experienced a traumatic life event that results in actual or threatened severe physical harm to yourself, or if you directly witness the actual or threatened severe physical harm of someone else. Examples of this are car crashes, fires, bombings, rape/sexual assault, torture or seeing a family member, friend or other person harmed or killed. Being involved in a natural disaster, such as a hurricane, flood or earthquake, can also lead to PTSD. In other words, it has to be really, really, life-threateningly harmful to be PTSD (plus, of course, you need to be showing the symptoms of the disorder- not everyone who experiences such traumatic events goes on to develop PTSD). C-PTSD, which someone mentioned here, is not yet an accepted diagnosis (although I think it soon will be, and fully support this); however, it usually refers to sustained child abuse/neglect or domestic violence.

      So, unless one of these circumstances occurred, it’s highly unlikely that you have PTSD. That does not, however, mean that you aren’t having severe stress or anxiety issues from dealing with a toxic job! Your feelings are valid, and getting help to process what happened and deal with any ongoing issues might be a good idea. Be kind to yourself, and I wish you all the best.

  117. Lunch Meat*

    Any ideas for managing a major depressive spike during an extremely busy time at work where I can’t get a break from people and can’t really take time off because everyone is during the holidays?

    1. Lunch Meat*

      I forgot to mention I have an appointment with my doctor to try to get my treatment back on track but it’s not until January.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Take what little time off that you do have and really focus on self care. Only go to things you really want to go to, don’t agree to events/gatherings/things out of obligation. Journal. Meditate (I like the headspace app.) If you can afford it, spend money on things that make your life easier, such as food/grocery services or a place that lets you drop off your laundry and they’ll wash/dry/fold it for you. Splurge on a nice bath bomb/bubble bath and take many long luxurious baths (if that’s something you like). If it feels good, make a nest on the couch and watch lots of tv/movies and permit yourself to not feel guilty about it. Allow yourself a sick day or to go home sick on a day where you leaving won’t cause complete chaos or make you feel horrifically bad. If you can work from home and it’s going to make you feel better to sleep in instead of getting ready and commuting, do that. (Of course don’t do that if work is the only thing that forces you to get out of the bed and brush your teeth, but you’ll know yourself best for that.) Don’t be afraid to ask for help from your friends either. I bet if you told some people that you’re struggling during a really busy time at work they’d be willing to help out, whether that means bringing you a meal, helping you around the house, sitting with you for an evening, or just being available via text.

      Overall, really focus on yourself for the next few weeks to get over this bump. When you’re down or sick it’s really easy to want to just not take care of yourself, but it’s the time when you really need to double down on that.

      Definitely keep checking back in in the comments, the AAM community is really great and I know we’re all rooting for you!

    3. Quill*

      I’ve got a raging case of S.A.D this year and if you can flex your time to be less busy or have more time to wake up in the morning at all, I recommend it.

      Any travel / events / gatherings that you are dreading going to in equal or greater proportion to wanting to hang with the people or be in a festive atmosphere can be ducked out of, or given a time limit. See: I have to go to the holiday school sing, it will sound like a squeaky monstrosity, I WILL sneak out the back door right before the last song is over, so the principal won’t try to volunteer me to herd children back to their drop off points at the end. I will only attend great uncle Willy’s christmas bash until people start trying to bring their small children home for bedtime.

  118. Alice*

    Why do some people think we should all model good work-life balance by only emailing people when the recipients of the email are working (ie, recipients’ 9-5)?
    1. Don’t you know how to turn off notifications? Just don’t check it when you don’t want to see it.
    2. sometimes I email people in New York and Tokyo in the same email. They can’t both be at work at the same time.
    3. I don’t know everyone’s special work schedules.
    4. EMAIL IS ASYNCHRONOUS.
    Thank you for listening.

    1. Profane Pencils*

      I agree with you, but I also know that when you’re sending emails to people below you, they often feel pressured to respond.
      I received an email from my boss once, in all caps, asking me to do something ASAP. I pulled over to get gas and messaged him back that I would be home in 20 minutes. His response? “Oh, no, just early tomorrow morning is fine”.

      Obviously it’s different if the email doesn’t include a directive. But I’ve also heard young employees fret about whether not responding to an email makes them look checked-out or not invested.

      (That said, I worked with an international financial firm for a while, and it was nigh impossible to email anyone during their business hours when you were communicating with a list of people in almost every time zone. Thankfully you were not expected to reply to email outside your working hours in that context.)

      1. Alice*

        You’re 100% right — and the solution is for managers to explain their expectations. (Especially when they are using ASAP all caps to mean “early tomorrow morning.) Not to police when people send messages!

    2. Fikly*

      How is that modeling good work-life balance? If emailing them at an appropriate time for them requires you emailing at an inappropriate time for you, isn’t that the opposite of good work-life balance?

      1. Alice*

        Good question. Plus the extra work of setting up an appropriate delivery delay, or just saving the draft if you’re on your phone and the client doesn’t have a delay feature, and having to remember to come back to it. Can you tell it grinds my gears?

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      As a manager, it is my job to inconvenience myself in small ways, so I don’t stress my staff in big ways. One way I can do that is the simplicity of email delay. If I work on a Saturday, I set those emails to arrive at 8am on Monday. I do think that when you’re dealing with huge time differences, than you’re not expected to know when someone in Tokyo is working, but I don’t think your comment acknowledges the reality of power imbalances. If you are in the position of power, than you should go out of your way to make sure those below you don’t feel undo pressure. Email delay is such a simple easy way to do that.

      1. Alice*

        In fact I’m not a manager but an individual contributor. And I think that the way to approach power imbalances (which, as you say, do exist) is to *talk* about expectations around communication. If a manager isn’t explicit, and just models good work-life balance by delaying delivery, there’s still a lot of unnecessary stress, for example, about whether the manager wants to the employees to drop everything to respond when they do receive an email, or if batching works fine in their org.
        At my department, leaders are really pushing the “don’t send email after five or when a recipient is on vacation.” This is a department with hundreds of staff in different locations across the company. I’m an individual contributor and I work with many people outside my department; they email me at all hours of the day and night. Which is fine, because email is asynchronous, and because I’ve talked with my boss and colleagues in similar roles about reasonable expectations for timely but not instantaneous replies.
        The frustrating part is when the upper management trumpets their commitment to work-life balance as exemplified by this policy. How does time-shifting the work balance it? It’s still literally the same amount of work.

      2. Alice*

        I’m not a manager. And if I were I would talk with my team about expectations (as indeed I talk now with my collaborators) so that everyone knows when they need to be responsive, and what time frame counts as responsive, and when they can and should turn off notifications and not check email.

  119. fridak*

    Here’s a question I hope the AAM readers can help me with: I am an immigrant from Country A and have been living in Country B for a few years now with my husband (from Country B—we met while I was studying here). I have work authorisation through my marriage. I’m currently unhappy in my role and am searching for a new job. My accent usually tips off recruiters that I’m not from here and usually the work authorisation question comes up. I was on a different visa when I started at my current job so it didn’t come up then. We’re not in the US, but the laws here are similar in that it’s not illegal to ask personal questions in interviews but it is illegal to use that info in hiring decisions. I don’t want to talk about my marriage in interviews, but I am obligated to prove I can work here, and it can be hard to answer the question without the marriage coming up. The paperwork I have to show literally says “SPOUSE” on it so it’s hard to avoid. And I’m worried this will lead to more biases (i.e. “she’ll just get pregnant and leave” and other old-school notions about women and work that unfortunately still exist). I’ve only had phone interviews so far but I’m apprehensive about in-person interviews and have even considered taking off my wedding ring. Am I being paranoid? Any AAM readers who have been in this situation and can offer advice?

    1. Alice*

      Never been in the situation, and I realize it’s a lot easier to have this take than to actually deal with it — but I think I’d worry less about the anti-women biases. If that means you don’t end up working for a sexist boss — so be it.
      That said — surely the paperwork that says “SPOUSE” only comes up after you’re pretty far along in the process, when it would be awkward for them to revoke the offer. Can you just make a blanket statement early on, “I have work authorisation and can indeed work legally here” and try and pivot the conversation to a related topic? I mean, in the US context, it’s one thing to ask “do you have work authorization” and another to ask “so how did you qualify for this kind of visa/when did you become a citizen?”

    2. I am gonna make it through this year*

      Can you put the work authorization info on your resume? Not the spouse info, but what the work authorization name is?

    3. Antilles*

      Not in your situation, so feel free to take this with salt.
      Do you really need to get into detail during the interview portion? I feel like you might be able to get away with answering “are you legally allowed to work in Country B?” with “Yes, I am and I can provide supporting paperwork as needed” without getting into more details than that in the interview. At least in my (US) experience as both a candidate and an interviewer, the brief answer “yes” to the checkbox of being legally allowed to work here is more than sufficient until we’re right near the formal offer point and finding out “oh she’s married” probably wouldn’t make them reconsider an offer.

  120. LilacLily*

    So you guys might remember me as the person who’s been trying to relocate to the UK since May, hasn’t had a ton of interviews, and even had a reply from Alison back in october when I asked about how bad is it to only be able to have remote interviews when you’re applying to jobs in a city far away from where you are atm.

    Well… I’m happy to say that I had a one-hour interview today, followed by a case study activity, and just an hour and a half after sending the completed case study I was invited to a second interview!!!! It’s going to be on Tuesday!!! I’m so darn excited!!! The timeline is tight because I’m going to be replacing an employee who’s leaving on January 24th, so I kinda have the feeling that if I do get the job I’ll know for sure before Christmas, and then it’ll be just be a matter of relocating in January after New Years and get crackalackin’ asap.

    This next interview is going to be a bit more technical, so I’m going to study all weekend for it! I’m just worried because this is a dedicated premium support role and I’m a bit lost as to what a technical interview would entail in this case. I know they said that SQL knowledge was optional but useful, so I’m definitely studying that, but I’d appreciate any other tips you guys might have.

    Also, would it be ok to ask the employee I’ll be replacing – who is also the person who interviewed me today and invited me for this second interview – about what I should expect and the topics they’ll be focusing on? Or should I figure that out by myself?

    1. Profane Pencils*

      I wouldn’t ask them what they’ll be focusing on, but you could ask (and I don’t know if this is UK etiquette or not) if they’d like you to prepare any specific information. Framing it as “Can I do x for you” instead of “can you tell me y” makes it more… action-driven. It’s less you asking for help and more you asking how you can help them.

  121. WorkingGirl*

    Mostly a rant, but: my title is Director of Mktg & Comm, though I often take on administrative tasks too. That’s fine (I usually have the time), if not frustrating since my skill set means I’m capable of a lot more. It also feels somewhat gendered, as I’m the only fulltime employee that’s a woman (I’m the youngest fulltime employee, but I’m not the newest or most junior). We have two PT assistants, both younger than me, one male one female.

    Anyway, it’s fallen on me to get together the list of client addresses for our christmas cards. Definitely an intern/assistant type task if you ask me, but whatever, the one assistant who had been helping me is out this week (she’s in college, it’s finals time). NBD I have time and it fills my day. The other day my boss hands me a new list of names…. for his PERSONAL christmas cards. Like his friends and family that aren’t business contacts. It didn’t take much time so it didn’t feel worth it to push back but like… why am I doing your PERSONAL christmas cards, bro?

    FWIW, he does have the other employees help out with some personal tasks on occasion (having one of the guys lift something heavy), so it’s not that I’m singled out in THAT aspect… but none of us are personal assistants, and it just feels weird and wrong to be using work time for his personal social benefit.

    1. Gaia*

      Oh hell no. That feels super gendered. Company Christmas cards? Ehh it should be an assistant but okay… personal cards? No.

      1. WorkingGirl*

        Right? He just handed me the list of his family and friends as if it was the natural next step….

    2. Profane Pencils*

      You say you’re not being singled out in “that” (read: gendered?) aspect, but that’s exactly what’s happening from an outside perspective.
      I would honestly push back on all the administrative work. I understand the desire to not ruffle feathers and make sure it gets done–have been there–but by taking it on, you’re telling your boss that you accept it as part of your job responsibilities.
      That’s not right, ESPECIALLY for someone at a director level.

      1. WorkingGirl*

        I’m not singled out in doing personal work for him (he’s had the male assistant run errands for him, and he’s had all the male employees help with lifting heavy stuff), is what I meant. But the fact that it’s addressing christmas cards for his friends and family feels soooo gendered! I am naturally very organized and I’m good at detail-oriented tasks (spell checking dozens of addresses and all) but it’s just frustrating. Do you have any tips on how to frame the conversation to push back?

        1. Zahra*

          You’re a director and your time is valuable. You have other stuff that you can’t do because of these requests (even if the other stuff is in the “it would be nice if it could be implemented” category). That stuff is often what gets you raises and/or promotions. So you can say that it would be a better use of company resources to delegate this to someone else. If you have reports, that’s a job for them, not you.

          Otherwise, I notice that he does solicit people on very gendered lines: men for physical tasks (lift heavy stuff), you (as a woman) for administrative stuff. Also note that physical tasks are finite and quick, whereas administrative tasks take longer. The assistant running errands isn’t that surprising or gendered to me. It comes with the territory.

          What is the male assistant doing? Isn’t that a task for him?

          1. WorkingGirl*

            I would think it’d be a job for the male assistant, but he is pretty occupied with other projects. He’s always open to help when available, but he tends not to have much downtime.

            I’ve TRIED taking on new responsibilities and implementing new ideas and it’s just a constant pattern of… higher-ups (one VP, one Director who’s been there a lot longer than me) getting to do more cool, fun, exciting, things, and me mostly staying the same. I was “promoted” to Director around Thanksgiving last year (I had been Mktg/Comms Coordinator, and another Director left). TBH I feel like most of my responsibilities are closer to Coordinator level.

            IDK… I’m just getting closer and closer to my wit’s end. My frustrations with the company are way too much to write out, but I get paid okay (not…. great) and there aren’t a lot of companies in this area in this industry. I could move, but I’d need to have a job lined up somewhere. Sigh.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      Wow. You need to hand his list back to him and say, “Gee. Looks like you handed this to me by mistake. This isn’t a clients list.” If he doubles down, tell him he needs to assign one of the assistants to do it, preferably the male. Really, you ought to be too busy. Are you being frozen out of appropriate tasks for your title? Only you can decide if this highly gendered situation will improve. You might be better off job hunting, if this continues.
      Sorry you’re experiencing this.

      1. WorkingGirl*

        Honestly I am better off jobhunting ultimately- I feel like I’ve reached the ceiling for my potential here. Like- when I asked about becoming fulltime (started parttime), I suggested (among other things) more blogging to boost SEO. That idea was nixed after one blog…. a year and a half later my boss hires an outside consultant to help us create SEO-boosting-blogs (nothing i couldn’t have done on my own…). I have asked to go along to client/ networking meetings, asked what I could do with a vague “yeah maybe some time…” each time (sometimes I don’t find out about these till AFTER they happen).

        Anyway, yeah, I’d really like to find a new job in the new year; I’m just not sure exactly what that is, and I also do really like that my job now is such a short commute (<10 mins). I’d love to move, frankly I’m open to moving anywhere if there’s the right fit and it pays enough (like, I’m not picking up to move for a job making the same as I do now….).

    4. CM*

      Hm.

      For the stuff where he keeps handing admin work to you, I think the right move is to assign it to the admins, but, if they’re not available, and it’s a super small office where you essentially ARE the comms department, then probably you have to do a lot of that stuff yourself. The question in that case is more whether the other Directors have staff to help them and you’re the only one who doesn’t.

      For the personal Christmas cards, I think ideally you would have pretended to misunderstand — as though the possibility that he was asking you (or anyone at your company) to deal with his personal mail did not even cross your mind because it would be so weird and inappropriate. So like, “Okay, I’ll add them to the client list.” “Huh? I don’t understand why we’re adding these names to the client list if we’re not sending them company cards?” “I don’t get what you mean. We’re making a client list so we can send out the company cards. Are these people on the client list or not?” And then just fucking send them cards that say “Thank you valued client,” or whatever.

      1. WorkingGirl*

        Occasional admin work, I don’t mind, and of course, since it’s a small company that happens. But like today we had one assistant in, who was supposed to be helping me type up labels but had trouble getting them formatted correctly. I asked my boss if he had any idea what to do, he said “well, just do it” and I said “I’ve already spent so much time on this, I was hoping Assistant could take care of these” and he told me “no Assistant has plenty of other things to do.” I was in the middle of some other more important tasks and boss keeps coming over asking me to reformat the labels.

        I like your tip on how to handle him asking about personal cards, though! Thank you

  122. Wednesday Addams*

    What are your favorite work retreat activities?

    For context: I’m planning a one-day retreat for a small team (~10 employees) – we’ll be doing a full-day retreat (half the day for department planning, half the day for fun/teambuilding-ish stuff). Everyone is excited to attend/participate and we have a flexible, but not huge budget.

    I already brainstormed ideas with the group, but I’m hoping some of you have ideas for things we haven’t thought of!

    1. cmcinnyc*

      I think you need to be more specific about what kind of ideas. If it’s a strategic-planning type retreat, that’s one thing. If it’s a brainstorming/new ideas retreat, that’s completely different. And it it’s *shudders* pure team building that’s a whole other set of options.

  123. Gaia*

    I can’t get into too much detail here but I’m raging at a co-worker that seriously irked me and I need to vent.

    I’ve been in my job about six months and have made some great progress. This co-worker has been difficult since day 1. Yesterday in a team meeting, out of nowhere, she makes a comment about how she thought my job was Llama counting. My job is not llama counting. Llama counting is an important job but it is entry level. I set policies, ensure the quality of llama counting, guide decisions around the count of llamas. There is no way she actually thought my job was Llama counting.

    I know it is petty but aaargh it irritated me.

  124. Observer*

    I don’t know if anyone will see this. But am I the only one who saw the third letter here and was “Do these guys actually have a clue how REAL functional workplaces work?” (Don’t get me started on the level or educational malpractice going on here. That’s not why I’m posting, though.)

    1. fposte*

      Third letter where? The main post’s #3 doesn’t seem that dysfunctional–are you looking at one of the updates?

    3. Observer*

      Oops!

      The link got left out. This was a letter elsewhere. I just posted it, but that may take a few minutes to come through.

    4. tangerineRose*

      This one? “In the real world, bosses don’t like it if you come right to them with a problem. So if you have issues with certain people in your group, you can trade students with your ‘co-workers’ first.”

      Yeah, that’s not OK.

      I’m still reeling over the Santa article – I’m Christian, and my parents decided to tell us the truth about Santa Claus fairly early on. I’d have been upset with a teacher who said this too.

        1. tangerineRose*

          Yeah, that was weird of the teacher. Maybe the teacher has no clue about how normal functional workplaces work?

  125. EJane*

    I just found out that our dispatcher is quitting. I don’t blame her, but it means that I’m going to get moved out of my technical writing role and back into dispatch.
    I originated the role and am currently working on a comprehensive suite of documentation for it, so I’m not worried about being able to do the job. But man, it was stressful, and I’m so much better suited to writing.
    At least this means I get my own office again.

    Siiiiiiiiigh.

    1. valentine*

      Is it not worth resisting? Do you not have a career track you can talk to someone about? Why don’t they hire someone who wants the job?

      (Are you the one who needs an accommodation not to answer the phone?)

  126. Anon-Today*

    I’m moving from one office to another on Monday, so today is the end of my clean-up. My old office became quite cluttered compared to others’ offices, which has been embarrassing to me. In my new role, there will be fewer distractions and there’s a bit more space to hide things, but I promise myself all the time to be like *them* and not be cluttered. I suspect I may have ADD but I also grew up in a messy house, so though I have been fighting this my whole life, I haven’t made a lot of permanent changes to my ways. I don’t think it’s affected my effectiveness in my job, but I wonder if it could have an impact on my reputation.

    1. WellRed*

      I’m gonna be honest (and my office gets a bit cluttery), but one of our C suiters has an office that is an unmitigated disaster. To the point where we assume he has ADD (not just for this reason, though). Yeah, it hasn’t impacted his job as such, but it has impacted his rep.

    2. WellRed*

      Yes, it can have an impact on your reputation. We have a senior level who’s office is such a disaster it’s a company joke. Because of this and a few other things, we all secretly assume he has ADD (which, for the record, is not the joke for us, it’s the mess).

  127. SufjanFan*

    Hi all! I’m currently working for a toxic, soul-sucking job in City A. When my lease is up in the spring, I plan on moving to City B where I grew up. The problem is: my boss told me she’s pregnant and will be going on maternity May – July. She reports directly to the CEO, who I barely interact with. Who do I give my notice to? Also, how much is my boss going to hate me?

    1. Colette*

      Assuming your boss is reasonable, she won’t hate you. And someone will likely cover for her when she’s gone; give your resignation to that person.

  128. Wendy Darling*

    My work is having a “hackathon” to stress-test and find bugs in a new piece of software they’re developing. I was all gung-ho about it until I realized that they had scheduled it over a weekend. For which no one will be paid. In mid-December.

    Even if I wasn’t morally opposed to doing a full weekend of unpaid work for the benefit of my employer, I have family obligations.

    I really like my manager and my teammates but we all basically work in a bullshit factory and it’s fairly demoralizing sometimes. I’m starting to feel like I should start seriously looking for jobs in the new year. This job is okay — cool teammates, adequate salary, very flexible — but I’m paid under market rate and doing work 3 levels above my actual title, and the longer it goes on the crankier I am about it, and I feel like I need to explore alternatives before I get REALLY bitter.

    1. Baby Yoda*

      Is the Hack-a-thon required? It seems ridiculous to me that they would require people to come in on a weekend near the holidays (!!) when people are so busy and obviously have commitments outside of work. Are you exempt – this might be helpful in knowing if they have to pay you or not for being at a work function.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        It is fortunately not required and therefore basically no one I know is doing it (I only know one person who’s participating and I kind of want to tell him he shouldn’t do it… but I won’t). We’re all exempt and half the people I know are currently on vacation anyway but the few who are around aren’t keen on doing a full weekend of free work.

        I was hoping that the event would be a resounding flop and no one would participate but actually ~100 people signed up!! My only comfort is that only about 25% of the people participating are from the US offices of the company.

    2. I am gonna make it through this year*

      …why don’t they intend to pay you?

      I mean, sure, they don’t intend to pay you because they know they can get away with it, but I feel like you have a lot of room to push back here.

    3. Nicki Name*

      That’s not even a real hackathon! A hackathon is supposed to be where you get to try out new ideas and technologies and some of it may eventually turn into real products or internal tools or not.

      …Also, you’re supposed to get paid.

      I’ve been where you are, in a crummy company with great teammates, and I say go for the job search. You’ll feel some guilt about “abandoning” your coworkers, but probably some of them are already job-hunting too.

      Save yourself. You deserve get paid fairly for the work you do. You deserve to get paid, period! This is nuts.

  129. Rock Prof*

    This is a very basic question, but I’ve always been in academia, so bear with me. If I should be toying with the idea of leaving academia because I want to live in a particular part of the US, is it helpful at all to turn on the LinkedIn job options that let recruiters view my job interests? Or is that just a gimmick? I’m not really worried about my employer finding out because their LinkedIn presence is dismal, and there’s no way in hell that they’d be hiring any jobs where I’d fit the description.

    1. irene adler*

      It’s free so no harm there.

      Personally, I haven’t had much success with that. So don’t think the job hunt is done when you activate the LI recruiter notification. You still have to do your part to find the open positions.

      1. Rock Prof*

        Thanks! I think part of me wants to magical-thinking away the actual job search. I have a comfy job with tenure, but I really, strongly dislike the place I live.

  130. Ron McDon*

    I wanted to pick the brains of the knowledgeable people on here.

    I work in education; we have developed many policies over many years, all with different logos, layouts, fonts, line spacing… you get the idea!

    I want to unify the policies and give them all a consistent layout. Is there any easy way to do this in Microsoft Word? I know one can create templates etc, but am not too sure how they work.

    Ideally I’d like to copy existing text, paste it into a document, and have it all formatted in a consistent way.

    Any advice gratefully received!

    Thanks in advance.

    1. Colette*

      I am not a Word expert, but ….
      when you copy text into a Word document, you can choose to copy it and use the destination formatting. That is probably your first step, although you will by definition lose the existing formatting when you do that.

      1. Red 5*

        Yeah, this is a place to start. When you go to paste into the central document, right click instead of using keyboard shortcuts. The menu will include “paste with destination formatting” and that will help.

        You’ll still need to do spot checks and mess around with it some, Word has a mind of its own, but it should get you a lot closer.

    2. Another JD*

      Hit cntrl + A to select all your text. On the home tab, click on the down arrow in the lower right-hand corner of the styles box (the one with all the different examples of lettering). Click “clear formatting”. Then apply your new formatting to the whole document.

    3. wordy*

      I recently made a bunch of word templates for institutional documents! Here’s my two cents.

      Yes, a Word Template would be an easy way of doing this. Specifically you want to use “Styles”, which allow you to define how different types of content always looks; everything labeled with the “Heading One” style always looks the same way, everything labeled with the “Normal Text” style always looks the same way, etc. Once your template is ready, and all the styles are defined, you can copy and paste the content in. Now, how effortlessly it converts depends on if whoever created it also used styles; if they did, Word will say “Oh, we’ve got a Heading One here? I know what that’s supposed to look like.” and flip it right over for you. If they didn’t, and everything is formatted by hand, you’ll have to go through and convert them. This shouldn’t be too difficult, though; you just select the text, and click on the style you’d like to assign to it.

      Things I would Google to learn more about this processes are “Custom Word Template” and “Word Paragraph Styles”. You also may want to look into “Word Headers and Footers”, which will allow you to have a consistent, well, header and footer. (Apologies if any of this seems overly basic, not sure what skill level you’re coming from!)

    4. Ron McDon*

      Thanks everyone!

      I used to do this kind of work in my previous role so am not starting from basic level, but that was over 10 years ago, so I wondered if Word had moved on and there was some sort of magic button to automatically format the text in a certain way.

      I’ve not used Styles before, but it sounds like that would make the job a lot simpler – thanks again!

  131. DrTheLiz*

    Academic job interview in Berlin on Monday. What should I bring? CV, cover letter, notebook, self – anything else? (Or other advice, I’m not proud).

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Don’t be afraid to say, “That’s a great question! Let me think about it” to give yourself time to process the questions. Academics and their piercing questions XD

      Comfortable, but professional shoes, if you’re going to taken on a walking tour of the campus?

    3. Anono-me*

      Breath mints, antacid, two nice pens, cash, and a safety pin.

      Fo my regular interviews, I usually try to have a typed cheat sheet with me. I usually have a short list of my top 3-5 key strengths/skills, a couple of keywords for good narrative examples, and any questions I want to make sure to ask the interviewing team.

      Good luck.

  132. Laszlo Whitaker*

    I would love to hear from other non-drinkers about navigating discussions about alcohol in the workplace. I’ve been in recovery for alcoholism for almost two months now, and I’m realizing just how often the topic of drinking comes up in casual conversation. People at work don’t know about my situation and I’d prefer to keep it that way. So far I’ve been trying to just change the subject when it comes up, but I feel like it draws attention because I used to frequently participate in or instigate these conversations.

    1. Turtlewings*

      I don’t drink for religious reasons, and I’ve never received any pushback or weirdness about it (though I’ve heard horror stories). I think the more casual and matter-of-fact you are about it, the less likely anyone is to think much of it. Since this is a change in your behavior, I think you probably do need to say something just because people are noticing the change, but a breezy “Yeah, I’ve decided to stop drinking for health reasons” might be all you need. Good luck, by the way!!

      1. Antilles*

        The breezy tone is pretty important here: If you act like it’s a big deal, people will treat it like a big deal; if it’s quick and casual, it won’t really get much notice.
        At most, you might get a quick sympathetic noise like “oh yeah, I should probably cut back too, good for you”…but odds are you won’t even get that, just a nod and they keep right on talking.

      2. LilySparrow*

        I rarely drink, and TBH I’m not really sure what “conversations about drinking” would be like, beyond a pasding reference that doesn’t really require a response. Discussing the merits of different brands? Talking about drunken shenanigans? Comparing hangovers?

        I generally space out of the first kind, because I have nothing to contribute. And I peace out of the other kinds, because that’s just not my scene.

        If I’m stuck in a situation, I just keep my mouth shut. And if somebody puts me on the spot, I shrug and say something like “I don’t know” or “not my thing.”

        With the added context that you used to head up these topics, maybe something like “Yeah, I’m laying off that lately,” or “I’m not really into that anymore.”

    2. fposte*

      Another nondrinker agreeing with Turtlewings. It may also be that you’ve tended to gravitate toward people for whom this is a big conversational thing and that maybe changing up your circle a little would help shift that pattern a little (I hardly ever have conversations about drinking at work, beyond people reporting they cracked open the wine or went out to Bar last night).

    3. SomebodyElse*

      I know you said you were looking for non-drinkers perspective… but as a drinker I don’t think I ever notice if there’s a non-drinker in a conversation. I’m sure there are, but it’s probably less noticeable or noteworthy to others than you think.

      In other words, you navigate it the same way when a conversation veers towards a TV show that you don’t watch or a book you haven’t read. Follow along, laugh at the funny bits, and relate it to something you do have knowledge of.

    4. Youth*

      I just say neutral things like “Oh,” and “Mm-hmm,” if the conversation’s specifically directed at me. If it’s not, I tune out and return to working.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I think if you listen closely you will find that many times you don’t have to say anything about your own setting.

      Them: “SO and I are going to [Well Known Bar] tonight.
      You: That’s nice, have fun.

      Them: “Oh man, I over did last night.
      You: “That’s too bad. I hope you feel better soon.”

      Them: “I got three bottles of wine for the holidays. I don’t want it, do you want it?”
      You: “No thanks, maybe Sue would like it.”

      But I think what you are really concerned about is something much more direct:

      Them: “You used to seriously get into this stuff. Now you change the topic. What’s up?”
      You: “Well it’s not a very interesting story. I had to make some changes due to my health. I also use sun screen now. Tell me, do you have a sunscreen you prefer in the winter?” The key here is to sound bored, oh-well-gotta-do-what-I-gotta-do.

      I thought I drank too much. So I quit. My worry was the actual pot-shots. “Oh you party pooper!” After a bit, I just said,”Yep, that’s me, Party Pooper! You’re right!” The people who kept drinking and drinking excessively eventually fell out of my life and the pot-shots weren’t an issue.

      There are a surprising number of people who do not drink and have no problem including other people who do not drink. All it takes is one of you saying, “ugh. Not into it any more” and the other person concurs, “Yeah, I got a way from all that.” Bingo, you have found a friend/ally.
      I think younger me found the drinking crowd to be louder, not sure if that is the right word. The non-drinking crowd was quieter, more subtle?, they never announced to groups that they did not drink. They would only talk about it in conversations with one or a few other people. And they rarely mention it. My hunch is that you will find supportive people in low key one-on-one conversations.
      Meanwhile go one conversation at a time and think about how you really don’t have to say anything of any substance, a simple “that’s nice” or “that’s too bad” might be enough. I’d bet that at least 75% of the time no one even notices. It was a fairly short time after I quit that this stuff dialed back for me probably less than a six months. YMMV of course, but I am optimistic for you as you have gotten this far. Congrats.

      1. Auntie Social*

        When you go into the changes due to your health, go into other things, too–my knees ache or I just don’t bounce back the way I used to or my back goes out now and then and I swear I’m getting to be an OLD MAN!! Make a joke of it. Maybe someone else will have an ache to throw in, or maybe they want to take a nap on Saturdays, too. But kind of bundle it up into a bag of complaints. A lot of people just drink less as they get older.

    6. Alianora*

      I do drink occasionally, but not at work. But I never say “I don’t drink at work events,” I just say, “No thanks,” or “That cider looks really good,” and no one’s ever questioned me on it. You could try saying, “I’m not a big drinker” or “I quit for health reasons” if anyone does question you.

      I usually just stay quiet if the conversation turns to alcohol, because I really don’t have much to say there. But it also doesn’t come up that often at my workplace. Maybe yours is different?

  133. Profane Pencils*

    Brief entertaining story:
    I recently got into a goodnatured fight with our COO over some document phrasing. I’m a technical writer, and was editing something he’d done, which included the phrase “must report planned absences no earlier than two days before the noted date”.

    It took more than an hour of debate, multiple diagrams, and carefully explaining the relationship between subjects, descriptors and reference points, to make it clear that the phrase he wanted was “No later than two days before the noted date”. Our COO is a very, very smart man. He also sees things from a very specific perspective that 95% of the time is brilliant, and 5% of the time makes NO f-ing sense.

    Insofar as I can tell, he was using “earlier” and “later” as modifiers for “noted date”, instead of the date of notification. He thought “later” meant AFTER the noted date.

    This debate ended up roping in multiple other people, many of whom are not writers and did not help the situation at all, but it was actually really funny, due to the sheer absurdity.

    1. Turtlewings*

      Good gosh, I would pull my hair out. XD Good on you for having the patience to get through to him!

    2. Red 5*

      I once got into a heated argument with a boss over the difference between “can” and “may” when writing some procedures.

      There was shouting. I laugh about it now but at the time it was actually one of the reasons I ended up realizing I needed to quit.

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      It is absolutely amazing to me how sometimes very smart people can have the most amazingly hilarious brain farts.

    4. SomebodyElse*

      I’ve spent the last 3 years as a the business lead on our company website project. I’ve spent more time debating grammar, punctuation, and general word usage than I ever thought possible.

      It’s always on of those phrases or words that somebody puts in that you look at and think “Huh… that doesn’t sound right” cue big debate on what it should be.

      Isn’t it funny sometimes where your job takes you :)

    5. Antilles*

      I actually think the root cause of the confusion is the awkward phrase “days before noted date” where you have two very similar words (days/date) almost immediately adjacent. It might have been beyond your purview as an editor to completely change the sentence, but it might have been easier to explain if you’d just rewritten the entire sentence – something like “Employees must report planned absences at least two days before being out of office” seems a lot clearer to me.

    6. Hello*

      I was cleaning up the employee handbook and trying to simplify language and make everything clearer. They had made changes over the years by sending out new pages to add or replace but had not actually put together a clean copy. The partner who had to approve this insisted on keeping ‘legal sounding’ language for one area. Didn’t make it clearer and was definitely unnecessary. I should have just changed it and given to him to check and never asked about it first.

  134. Quill*

    Back from potluck, am going to end up eating my entire cranberry salad at home this week. because I forgot to set it out at 10:30 before the potluck started.

  135. Cookie Captain*

    If you’re applying for an entry level position from a non-entry level one, should you acknowledge that in your cover letter?

    If I’m a llama manager, should my application for an alpaca assistant job include something saying that I’m looking for an entry level position in the alpaca field to make it clear that I’m aware of what I’m applying for?

    1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      I would because a lot of employers are hesitant to hire people they view as overqualified with no explanation.

    2. irene adler*

      Yeah. I’m a Supervisor and I’m applying for Lab Tech positions. When I interview, they almost invariably ask me why I want to “take a step backwards”. They seem concerned that I will want to “boss” around my co-workers. For me, I’d rather ‘do’ than ‘supervise’. They seem convinced. Not sure though; I haven’t been offered any jobs so far.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      Yes, explain. One of the basic questions I have when I see someone over qualified is “Why do they want this?” and that should be addressed in your cover letter somehow.

  136. Red 5*

    I have a freelance side gig, and as part of that I have to send regular invoices to the client that I work for (generally only one client, though sometimes I’ll end up with another one for a short period of time).

    The invoicing software I’ve been using has been bought my a major tax prep company that I would prefer not to interact with because I disagree with some of the ethical choices they’ve made recently. I’d like to switch to something else but I can’t find anything that fits my needs.

    I’m paid through direct deposit, so I don’t need to be able to take payments through anything in particular. I only invoice one client (maybe three over the course of a year tops), but I switched to the system I use now because I was having trouble keeping track of what had and hadn’t been paid. Both client and I are better about that now, but it’s been helpful to still have that backup to make sure the numbers match.

    Do any of you other freelancers have any suggestions? Last time I asked some freelancing friends their suggestions were just to get tax prep software that includes invoicing, and the entire reason I’m switching is because I don’t want to give any money to the big tax prep companies. And I definitely don’t want to be using Paypal for anything more than I have to, and will never accept payment for a job through them anyway. I used to use Google docs and it was a disaster so I’m definitely not going back to that.

    Am I going to just have to design an Excel invoice and do it all manually? I don’t really want to sink a ton of money into software for something I only use for maybe 4 invoices a month.

    1. The Pirate Bee*

      I was about to leave a comment telling you which service I was using, then googled it and discovered that it was, in fact, acquired by one of the big tax prep companies a few months ago, so I suspect we’re talking about the same one. What an epic bummer. I’m no longer freelancing, but I hope you find something that works for you soon!

    2. Ron McDon*

      I use an excel spreadsheet to track invoices for my husband’s business – I enter the information on the spreadsheet as soon as the invoice is sent. If it’s not been paid yet the total is in bright pink; once it’s paid I change the font colour to black.

      Makes it easy to see at a glance which invoices are outstanding.

      That might be more labour intensive than you want, though?

    3. LilySparrow*

      I use an Excel workbook that I downloaded somewhere.

      It has one sheet to enter client info & assign numbers, one sheet to enter line items for time, one sheet that pulls in the info based on client number and entry number and creates a nice looking PDF, and one sheet that tracks paid/unpaid and aging.

      I use Toggl to track the actual hours and sum up hours on each category, then those category sums become my line items.

  137. YRH*

    What’s the best way to handle getting sick right after taking a 2 week vacation? I ended up working from home one day, going in one day, and taking 3 sick days. In hindsight I probably shouldn’t have gone in. I feel like I have enough trust that no one thinks I’m lying or anything but taking a bunch of sick leave right after vacation still isn’t a great look.

    1. fposte*

      There’s really nothing to do but shrug and say “Sucks getting sick; thanks for covering the unexpected days.” If this is guilt talking, let it go; stuff happens, and you don’t need to expiate.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      at one point I was on my way home from a four-days-off vacation and got food poisoning in the airport on my way home, so I woke up the next morning and managed to text my boss before I was otherwise, shall we say, unavailable. I ended up being out of commission for three days as well. My boss was understanding, and nobody else said anything. Though now, when I go on vacation to the same destination, she reminds me to avoid the fast food place in the airport on my way home. :P

  138. user532754868*

    So I quit my job after just several months, without having a new one lined up. They expected me to work 70h/ week and I started to feel sick and to lose my personal connections. I only worked. I had the feeling if I stayed a bit longer this would have serious consequences for my health.

  139. JustaTech*

    Question for HR-type folks:
    How do you deal with small complaints of inappropriate gender-based behavior at work that doesn’t, individually, rise to the level of full-on harassment but might be part of a pattern?

    My close coworker (a woman) sent an email about a vendor change to another coworker (who I don’t think works in the same state as us) and he replied with ‘I can see you’re a girl who really cares about copier toner’. This is obviously inappropriate, so my coworker (after discussion with our boss) forwarded it to HR, who’s first reaction was “how is this inappropriate?” and then said they only work on serious things or “when there is a pattern”.

    How do you know if there is a pattern of bad behavior if you don’t record it?
    Or does it only count as a “pattern” if it is many instances directed at a single person?

    1. fposte*

      Those are darn good questions for your HR department, but really the problem is less the opacity than the “How is this inappropriate?”

      I’d be reasonably okay with them saying “We don’t think that’s optimal and would keep an eye on future behavior, but we wouldn’t intervene unless a more demeaning term was involved.” But this is, as you suggest, some smoke and mirrors that make you unsure of what you should report and whether they’d do anything about any of it.

      1. JustaTech*

        Thanks for the reality check! It’s a bit extra upsetting/irritating for me because I generally like our HR rep (especially after years of having nothing but an e-mail account that was never answered). But sometimes the HR rep can be a bit … slow to see things I would think are obviously in HR’s area of expertise (like the whole “hams for the holidays” and the utterly blank look when I said that hams are against a lot of religions).

        It also makes me wonder if I should have reported the guy who called me “sweetie”. It would have been harder (it was verbally, but I did have a witness) and at another site. It doesn’t matter now, that guy was fired for saying way too many racist things, but I have to wonder if he’d said stuff like that to other women.

      2. Fikly*

        HR should know why that’s inappropriate. Your coworker is presumably an adult, not a child, and thus not a girl.

    2. Leopard*

      “How do you know if there is a pattern of bad behavior if you don’t record it?”

      Maybe you could record it on your own – date, time, witnesses, save the email? And then when there’s a pattern, bring it to HR?

      But I agree that how they answered you is disheartening. And I don’t work in HR, so I don’t know, but yeah – it kinda seems like keeping those records is, um, their job? :)

      1. JustaTech*

        That works, but it only works if it is a pattern directed at one specific person.
        If Bob says something sexist, but only once a month and not the the same person every time, how many sexist things will Bob say before any one person has enough instances to be a “pattern”? That’s what’s frustrating.

    3. Daisy-dog*

      HR will not be the same in every organization, so YMMV. In my company, performance management is handled by management. So making an comment like that should be sent to that individual’s manager – possibly by your coworker’s manager.

    4. WellRed*

      One thing I don’t see here is what you are doing about this? If someone calls you sweetie, and you don’t like it, ask them not to. Don’t just fire off a complaint. If they keep calling you sweetie, that’s a different story.

      To answer your other question, the pattern does not have to be directed at a single person.

  140. Bullet Dodged*

    About 8 years ago I was fired during probationary period from one of my first jobs, for supposed failure to meet probationary period requirements (said requirements were never communicated to me, nor were they standard duties for my profession). It was devastating at the time, but ultimately my career trajectory has been fine, despite some serious work PTSD. Yesterday it was announced that the facility is being investigated on the federal level for many charges, including *experimenting on their patients*. Like presumably not IRB-approved experimenting. Yikes. I knew there was some not great stuff happening there over the years, but never apparently knew how bad it actually was. In retrospect, being fired was probably a huge bullet dodged!

    1. JustaTech*

      Talk about blessings in disguise!

      Also, I hope the state/feds drop the book on them. Unethical scientists are *the worst*. (Speaking as a scientist.)

      1. irene adler*

        No IRB approval?
        Yikes!
        I’m surprised anyone was onboard for that. Soon the excuses will come: “I didn’t know!”, “Not my job!”

        Glad you are long gone from them. But sorry they were such jerks to you.

        1. Bullet Dodged*

          That’s my speculation, based on what the news reports say these experiments involved. There’s no way an IRB would have approved them. I don’t understand how people can be so terrible.

          1. irene adler*

            They are driven by greed- money, fame, etc. Or they think they are some kind of god-like entity.

      2. Bullet Dodged*

        To make it worse, the people served by the facility are a vulnerable population. Reading the allegations sounds like something you’d see in a textbook, about experiments done before there were ethical requirements for experiments. It makes me sick to my stomach. Unfortunately it’s a state facility, so the feds are the ones who will be doing all of the investigations, it sounds like.

  141. Kelly Kapur*

    What is the reason that you are excited to be at work?

    I don’t mean money, relationships, hitting targets — which are the RESULT of being at work. I mean literally, BEING at work.

    For my last job, it was having somewhere comfortable to sit! I worked from home and messed up my back sitting on the couch. I really wanted somewhere ergonomic to feel better.

    My current job — it’s the tea! I am a tea fiend and it gets me out of bed in the morning knowing I have tea waiting for me.

    1. fposte*

      Honestly, it’s my colleagues. Not even in an evolved appreciation kind of way, just in an “I gotta tell them [thing]!” kind of way.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      Also my coworkers.

      But…. I recently ordered a bucket to recycle batteries, and it’s this tiny little 0.6gal bucket, and that has made me giggle for probably way too long. So I guess for this week also Tiny Battery Bucket.

    3. Cat*

      I recently went 100% WFH, with a better workstation setup at home than my office, so there is very little to get excited about physically going into the office now. Maybe the free snacks.

    4. The Pirate Bee*

      As an extrovert in a new role after 2 years of at-home freelancing and online school, it’s being around people! I was going absolutely stir crazy at home. Just getting to eat lunch with someone or spend 5 minutes talking about our cats is heaven. Even being surrounded by the noise of a busy office and other people’s conversations again is a relief.

      1. JustaTech*

        Even as an introvert, I like being around my coworkers. If I worked from home regularly I’d go stir crazy and talk my poor husband to death. Getting to talk with people at lunch, even if it’s about nothing at all, is so nice.

        (And the free and easy-to-use coffee is nice too. I like my French press at home, but it’s a pain in the tuchas to clean.)

    5. Third or Nothing!*

      Super random, but I love having a 32 oz insulted tumbler of water right next to my hand for 8 hours a day. It makes it so much easier to hit my target of drinking a gallon of water a day. I struggle to do that on weekends because my HydroFlask isn’t RIGHT THERE at all times and I get busy doing stuff and forget.

    7. Catsaber*

      1. My coworkers
      2. getting out of the house

      I need lots of non-people time, but if I spend too much time at home, I get twitchy. Even when I was on maternity leave (for both kids), I was ready to get back to work at the 2 month mark.

      1. Books4Me*

        Amen to the pebble ice machine! And the Keurig that lets me make Iced Dark Hot Chocolate in the summer.

    10. Arts Akimbo*

      I freelance now, but at my last office job it was the cleanliness! My house is like unto Bag End, full of mathoms, all of which I have to dust myself.

  142. Mouse Ears*

    It’s very stressful to me to work at a job where I’m trying not to be outed.

    I keep conversations brief. It’s easier to give the perception I’m shy or have poor social skills than to build a relationship and slip up and say something I’m not supposed to. It happened at my last job and I was fired shortly after.

    I know it’s technically illegal to fire someone over… but that’s not the reason they give. I’m trying to save enough money to move somewhere more welcoming.

  143. Rudolph*

    I’m very jealous of y’all who had your unpaid overtime, ahem, holiday parties during the week.

    Ours is a weekend affair, 60-minute drive each way, we have to show up 1 hour before the guests (employee+client party) for a company photo which is two hours before dinner. So even if I want to dash out immediately after dinner, I’m still looking at a minimum 5-hour commitment. And I don’t drink so the whole “but it’s free booze!!!” argument is lost on me.

    1. WellRed*

      What on earth are you supposed to do in between photo and dinner? This is like those awful weddings that don’t take into account what to do with guests while photos are being taken.

      1. Rudolph*

        Cocktails are an hour before dinner, but that assumes the non-employee guests are not fashionably late. In between the photo and cocktails? Wander around aimlessly, read AAM on my phone, hit up the Indeed job boards?

        1. tangerineRose*

          Will they let you leave between these 2 events? If so, I’d try to find someplace nearby that might be interesting to visit.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      “Free booze”? Charge your phone before going. You’re gonna wanna video.
      Seriously, though, I’m sorry. I’d be so tempted to take off after the photo shoot and skip the dinner.
      Sympathies.

      1. Cat*

        Username checks out. :-)

        I will definitely be tempted but I don’t think the opportunity for a clean, and discreet, getaway will preset itself before dinner. Phone will be plugged in for the hour-long commute, FULLY charged.

  144. Shelly*

    Success story: my boss and I were invited to present at a national conference for a project we did together this year and I am so excited and I can’t wait! There are some unknowns because I will be back from maternity leave about one month when the conference happens, but my boss has already been so supportive and suggested some options to make this work and I am just so grateful.

    1. Catsaber*

      Congrats! On both your presentation and your baby!

      If the conference is out-of-town, and you’re going to be breastfeeding, just make sure you plan ahead regarding your pumping. I went to an out-of-state conference and pumped…and it sucked…but I managed. Having a manual hand-pump was a lifesaver, because you can’t always find a place to plug in (especially if you’re flying!). Nowadays they have the Willow pump, which is two little pumping “pods” that sit in your bra, which I SO WISH I had during my breastfeeding days. They look amazing.

      If you’re not doing that, then just ignore me. Good luck!

  145. Environmental Compliance*

    I think at this point over half of management is looking to leave at my facility, and all of us are pointing towards the person managing us as the source of frustration. That 50+% is also just the ones I know about. I would be willing to bet money on the rest also looking, just less aggressively.

    No one’s really sure what to do, because it’s not necessarily easy for all of us to sit down and talk about it. It has been thrown about informally to call in to HR as a group and discuss.

    It’ll be interesting to see where this goes.

  146. Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.*

    So I’ve read all of the articles here and elsewhere I can find about gifts and gifting at work at the holidays. I always, always, always buy the admins of the three big bosses gifts this time of year as an acknowledgement of their hard work/thank you for it. In the past I’ve gotten them hand cream with some nice candy, or last year’s big hit – a mug with their initial, some tea, and also hand cream (when you work in an office, dry skin is A Thing). So this year I’m wondering what I should do. I know that all three drink wine, so bottles would be acceptable, or another option is a fancy-ish tin of popcorn and yet another tube of hand cream/lip balm. Admins of the AAM-a-verse – which would you prefer? Any other ideas?

    1. Havarti*

      I prefer food and gift cards. I’ve gotten lotion and soaps which are ok but I’m picky about scents and depending on brand, my skin might not like certain ones.

        1. Daisy-dog*

          I’m known in the family as a wine drinker. I have 7 or 8 corkscrews, probably 30 wine glasses of various kinds, and a bunch of other wine accessories. Just a thought depending on what those admins might get the rest of the year.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      It’s too late for this year, but next year, since you know they all drink wine, Aldi has a wine advent calendar that’s supposed to be a big hit, and other companies do similar things as well.

    5. Aphrodite*

      I would prefer not to get chocolates or wine just because by this time of the year I am burned out on them. So, depending on your budget, I’d love a good recharageable lantern or flashlight (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PHQF4HY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) because I live in California, home of wildfires and now blackouts.

      Or if your budget is high enough the world’s best pepper grinder: https://www.amazon.com/COLE-MASON-Derwent-Pepper-Grinder/dp/B01GJJIR1Y/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=pepper%2Bgrinder%2Bcook%27s%2Billustrated&qid=1576287219&s=home-garden&sr=1-1&th=1

      Mesh Laundry Bags: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0188PM1VY/?creativeASIN=B0188PM1VY&linkCode=w61&imprToken=pyYztYPPzkkfTzxWzf5s4Q&slotNum=3&tag=apartmentth0a-20

      Palm cat brush: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=palm+cat+brush&i=pets&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

      Sea Fan: https://www.caseashells.com/sea-fans.html
      https://www.etsy.com/listing/154860285/black-sea-fan-7-10-gorgonia-ventalina?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=black+branches&ref=sc_gallery-2-12&plkey=b3242988cca1a1fdf152ada39ff5d4480abf2aad%3A154860285

      Jar Opener: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BKZUJK/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=sl1&tag=kk1h-20&linkId=74ce98e7d68e4599d403ff41652596dd&language=en_US

      Solar Outdoor Lights: https://www.amazon.com/MAGGIFT-Hanging-Lights-Outdoor-Lantern/dp/B073B5C1LH/ref=sr_1_21?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8o_kyN614wIVEMNkCh095wD5EAAYASAAEgLkCfD_BwE&hvadid=295253797159&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9031637&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=14666019789759612820&hvtargid=kwd-384943855810&hydadcr=16530_9850124&keywords=solar%2Bchristmas%2Blights%2Bfor%2Boutdoors&qid=1563153025&refinements=p_n_feature_eighteen_browse-bin%3A5699955011%2Cp_72%3A1248909011&rnid=1248907011&s=lamps-light&sr=1-21&th=1

      Gift Ideas for Gardeners: https://www.fromhousetohome.com/garden/gifts-for-gardeners/

  147. Third or Nothing!*

    My BFF’s company Christmas party is tonight. Whoever planned it decided that since it fell on Friday the 13th, the theme would be Nightmare Before Christmas. Some people will probably love it, but she doesn’t. I’m with her on that actually. We’re not huge fans of spooky.

    No advice needed, just thought y’all would get a kick out of a creative Christmas party theme.

  148. Emily*

    Just a quick note to say I’m wondering about the past poster, “I WORKED in a Hellmouth,” who had corresponded with lots of updates in the past. (She had originally written in about a very toxic work environment, and had left that job to get into a better but not permanent job, and more recently had said she’d gotten a great new position.)

    I imagine by now she is settling into her new job with the large state university. I really hope it’s going well! I also hope she’s doing better personally, and likes her coworkers (I understand she knew one person there previously).

    Anyway, Happy Holidays, folks! And have a great weekend.

    1. Arts Akimbo*

      Me too! I think of her and hope she is well and that her new workplace is free from bees and squirrels, both metaphorical and literal.

  149. J*

    My office has one single occupant bathroom and two multiple-occupant bathroom spaces on each floor. Because the single occupant bathroom is nearer to my office, I always try that one first. If not, it’s a few extra steps to get to the other.

    For some reason, the last single bathroom has been the site of the expected unpleasant odors pretty frequently over the last few weeks. (Nothing out of the ordinary. Just, more frequent than has been the case over the last several years.)

    This has led some generous soul to leave two different bottles of “poo pourri” in the bathroom as a public service, of sorts.

    Unfortunately, while I appreciate the thought–it’s a really nice gesture!–someone who is using the poo-pourri is going overboard with it. Several times, I’ve emerged from that bathroom with a terrible headache from the overwhelming chemical smell.

    I feel terrible because it’s a nice thought, but good grief, I cannot be the only one here with a scent-sensitivity who cannot handle it! I have no idea if it makes sense to say something about it. I conferred with a colleague who felt that really, the only option is to just use the other restroom. Which isn’t the end of the world, but I’ve never been so tempted to leave a “hey, y’all” note in the workplace before.

    1. Alice*

      I think the only situation where a hey y’all note is ok is for something like this. If someone were overdoing it on the perfume, you could speak with them one-on-one. But in this case, you have no idea who it is.
      I’d leave a note saying thanks to the poo pourri supplier, and please let’s use a gentler hand with it, because too much of it is giving me headaches.

    2. Arts Akimbo*

      Ohhhh, I wonder if someone is unclear on the concept of poo-pourri and instead of spraying it into the toilet they’re spraying it in the air like an air freshener!

  150. NeonDreams*

    Do any of you all have a conversation with a customer and go, this is not where this conversation needs to happen? Like it should be in a health professional’s office? I had one of these today and it’s weighing me down tremendously. I’m already exhausted from how busy everything is. Just another day in customer service (Sigh).

  151. Allthecats*

    I have a question on resume formatting as well as Linkedin

    I’m a government contractor, I started a new job in May but a few months later the company I work for lost the bid for the contract but the company that won it is keeping me on. Starting January I’ll officially be employed by Company 2.

    Basically the contracting company that pays me changed but it’s the same job, title, department, etc.

    How do I put it on my resume so it’s understood I’m not changing jobs after just 6 months? It’s not a big deal now obviously but I’ll probably be looking at new positions in a few years.

    1. JanetM*

      I am not an expert, but I’d probably do something like this on my resume:

      Government Department, May 2019-present
      (Through Contracting Agency A, May 2019-December 2019; through Contracting Agency B, December 2019-present)

      I don’t know if that would work on LinkedIn, though.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I like JanetM’s suggested formatting. You could put the topline in the job field, then include the parenthetical in the text box below it, right before describing your accomplishments or what have you.

  152. Anon for this*

    I need advice on navigating a sticky work environment. I accepted a part-time job a few months ago teaching a certain subject. I had some reservations about being a good culture fit, but accepted the job due to life circumstances. Unfortunately, my reservations were correct. My current plan has been to stick out the school year and then give notice. After I started the job, I learned through the local whisper network that the company had a history of firing suddenly for no reason (I believe this information to be trustworthy; please take my word here), and a history of sketchy practices–picture a cult of personality, cliquey, rumor mill, power game-filled atmosphere. Now I’m on the receiving end and I suspect I may not last out the year.

    I’m trying to summarize in a way that neither doxes me nor adds up to a novel, and it’s hard. In brief, I’ve gotten good feedback from my students and their families in class and out of class. I’ve taught enough that I know how to tell when students are and aren’t engaged in class (they’re kids, it’s not hard to tell!), and most of them are engaged most of the time, which considering they’re, you know, kids and most of them don’t want to be there in the first place (long story), I feel is a pretty good accomplishment. They’re not super serious about what I teach, so I’ve done a lot of changing in my teaching style and content to suit their needs, and I thought this was working. We get a lot of work done in class, but we also have a lot of fun and their enthusiasm is evident.

    Nevertheless, I keep getting *very* sideways, very vague negative feedback from my boss, things like “kids aren’t having fun in class.” That was the latest piece of feedback I got, and I only got that because I accidentally uncovered my boss lying to me. After several more requests on my end to PLEASE tell me some actual real details so I can change things if necessary, she’s finally agreed to talk on the phone. I see her only in passing about once a month so a phone call is as good as it’s going to get. I’m not actually convinced these vague complaints are real, either (like I said, it’s that kind of place), which would explain an awful lot.

    The only ultimate way to make this work is if I seriously suck up (remember, cult of personality) and substitute teaching the subject for purely entertaining the kids. I refuse to do that, as there are many kids in class who really do want to learn and it’s not fair to them to essentially set them up with a very expensive babysitting service instead of what they’re really paying for, which is lessons in my topic.

    I’ve been extremely responsive to every piece of vague, unhelpful feedback so far. I’ve changed how I teach. I’ve switched curricula. I’ve given up standards that are baseline for the field to keep my boss happy. I’ve done absolutely everything I know how to do, and now I find out that it’s STILL not enough. And nothing is going to be enough, and the environment is such that I wouldn’t stay even if I could find the magic bullet. I’m only trying to last out the year for the kids’ sakes. I’d submit my notice immediately if not for them.

    So in light of all of that, how on earth do I handle this phone call? I want to be responsive to feedback, but my integrity as a teacher is very important to me and I couldn’t live with myself if I gave up all my (very normal for the field) standards. So there’s a limit of how far I’m willing to go here.

    1. Teacher Wife*

      My husband actually went through a really similar situation. It did not turn out well.

      I suppose how you handle the phone call depends on what your desired result is. Do you just want to demonstrate that you’re trying? Or do you want to actually do something with feedback?

      1. Anon for this*

        Yeah, I suspect this isn’t going to turn out well either. My desired result is that I actually have management’s support for what I’m doing with the kids–I have, with great effort, wrangled a bunch of kids and parents onto my “side,” as it were. That’s not likely to happen. The rest will depend on what the feedback actually is. If it’s still weird and vague then I’ll just detail what I’m doing, keep doing it, and hope I don’t get fired. If it’s something that’s actually actionable and changeable then if it’s not something truly egregious I’ll fix it, like I would any other feedback.

        I think if it gets really bad I’ll probably tell my boss that it’s clear things aren’t working out and would she like us to part ways mid-year. That’s no hardship on my side but is likely to be a big hardship for her, so I do rather have the upper hand. But that’s obviously the nuclear option and I’d rather not use it unless I have to.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      Document what your boss asked you to do and what you’ve done to accommodate her. Write a letter to her after the phone call to make a record of what she said and what your response was. I hope you come out of this okay.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thank you, I appreciate that. And yes, one major advantage of never seeing my boss is that 90+% of our communication is written, so I have lots of documentation just in case.

    3. tangerineRose*

      Sorry you’re going through this. I think getting into a different job as soon as possible might be a good idea. I wouldn’t recommend waiting a year this time.

  153. Mammoth Springs*

    Advice for not being awkward in interviews over the phone?

    I’m super good at the chit-chat. I make the interviewer feel comfortable off the bat. Then they get into the questions and I feel like… they respond with, “Oh, interesting that’s great,” and I’m like “Mmhmm….” and it gets so awkward! Especially when I ask THEM questions and then I’m like, “Oh that’s super great.”

    Like I feel like the whole phone interview thing messes up my flow and my connection, and the feedback I got from the last recruiter is that the client felt like I didn’t make enough of a “connection” with them. How do you make a connection with someone once you get past the conversation and the interview arrows get shot at you?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Keep a pen and paper beside you. Jot down things you want to mention or go back to.
      In prep for the phone interview make a short list of things you want to cover. When there is a lull you can say, “Oh and I wanted to mention I actually built SILVER teapots for one job. ”

      It’s a two part problem- segues and new topics. In order to build a segue into another topic you have to know what topic that would be. Once you know where you are going it’s easier to make a segue into it.

      I have used the prep and note methods with doctors and lawyers dealing with those types of matters also. I write down things I want to go back to as we speak.

    2. LilySparrow*

      I agree that notes are really important. I also do part of my work by interviewing people by phone (research, not recruiting).

      I find it really helpful to casually talk through my thought process more than I would if we were face to face, because they can’t see my expression or what I’m doing. Like:

      “Bear with me a second, I just want to jot that down.”

      “I had a question about that, let me just find it here…”

      “Oh that’s so interesting! I’m really intrigued by the idea of…”

      So don’t feel like you have to fill every second, but it does help to comment on your own thoughts and reactions in a way that wouldn’t be natural in person, so they aren’t left hanging.

  154. Persephone Mulberry*

    Today’s unexpected holiday gift delivered to our office from one of our vendors: 25 Ohio State Buckeys Football t-shirts. Our industry is not sports or college related in the slightest, nor based in Ohio.

    2. Third or Nothing!*

      That is one of the most random vendor gifts I’ve ever heard of. I wonder if anyone can top it?

      The weirdest thing we’ve gotten is a ham. Not that a ham is weird, it’s just clearly not meant to be split among the 20 people in the office…unless we cook it here in a Crock Pot I guess.

    4. Anony Shark*

      Our vendor once sent boxes of expired toothpaste. That was two years ago and I still judge them for it.

  155. KeysToTheKingdom*

    After a few months of back and forth on Skype, I flew out this week to meet with a company that’s been courting me since October. It was my idea – I’d been feeling really uneasy, as it would involve a move to a new country, and I wanted to meet the team and get a bit of a feel for everything.

    I then got informed after planning that I’d be meeting the CEO of the company. Not a huge deal but man, oh man – they blew it for themselves.

    I get that CEOs are busy people. Seriously, I get it. But I was given fifteen minutes with this CEO, and it broke down like this (give or take, if you assume answers come when questions were asked);

    – they spent seven minutes talking AT me about the company
    – their assistant (who sat in the meeting) spent four minutes elaborating on their behalf
    – they then took a phone call mid-conversation for three minutes
    – and the remaining few minutes were taken up by my answers

    I’ve got zero interest in this position anymore, for a variety of reasons, but I’m still keen to hear their feedback and see if they’ll give me an offer. I don’t think I’ll take it anyways – they mentioned it would be less Than my most precious role, and that wasn’t a good figure to be on in an expensive city here in Europe.

    Had anyone else had an experience like this? I’ve been in a few situations with CEOs before, and this is by far the lowest standard ever.

    On the flip side, I’ve been freelancing for the past two months and my client wants to extend my contract until the end of March! They even spoke about more long term agreements going forward, which I am absolutely happy to speak to them. The new round will include KPIs, so they’re effectively going to treat me like a remote employee until my contract ends. I’m super thrilled – I’ll be starting 2020 on a good foot with clients that have told me how much they like my work and are super keen to keep me on board! They’re based in a different country to mine, but we’ve discussed me flying out to meet the team and it’s something I really want to try out, even if it’s out of my own pocket!

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Hey, at least now you know? I mean, that…does not sound like someone I would want to work for. And, huzzah for private clients!

  156. Anon for this...*

    Hope its not too late? I’m looking for sources of fully remote accounting/finance jobs in the US. I’ve Googled but who knows how legit some of these places are. I need to replace the income from a C suite job.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Not the best answer but I have seen people recommend going to the website of the actual employer. This would mean figuring out who in that arena employs people who wfh.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I usually just search Indeed or LinkedIn and instead of a location, insert “Remote” in the search. It returns Remote positions (mostly), and you can further refine.

      FlexJobs is another newish site for remote jobs.
      I haven’t had much luck there, and there is a modest fee, but it could be my field isn’t well represented. Worth checking out.

  157. Moxie Pepsi Coke*

    tl;dr – what sorts of jobs can I get if I’m fluent in Japanese but have few other hard skills?

    I’m teaching myself Japanese. I’m doing it because I like Japanese food and Japanese film and it’s easier to consume both if you speak Japanese. I’m doing it via free/very cheap sources at home. I’ll probably see if I can apply for Japanese courses at a local community college, but my dream would be to do something more immersive, like a study abroad program. If I’m going to spend thousands to learn a skill, I’d want it to be something I can use in a job.

    I’m 30 with a bachelor of fine arts. I’m working as an assistant at an arts nonprofit. My current goal is to stay at this job for at least two years so I can make up for my three year gap in employment and my two short stints after I got well (eight months as a CS rep, nine months doing various temp jobs). I consider myself decently skilled in Excel and I’ve got beginner level SQL knowledge, but I don’t have any desirable and or/hard skills.

    My impression of jobs where being bilingual helps is either A) translator jobs that are hard to get, B) jobs where you need some marketable skills (e.g Japanese language skills AND be a lawyer), or C) teaching jobs. If I put a bunch of effort and/or money into getting certified as fluent, could I reasonably expect to be able to use that accreditation to find work?

      1. Moxie Pepsi Coke*

        Thank you for all the resources! I’ll have to spend some time perusing these over the weekend. It’s nice to know there are other options out there once I’ve proven I’m able to stick with one job for an extended period of time.

    2. acmx*

      You could work as a flight attendant. Just be aware that training is typically not paid (and is probably 6 weeks).

    3. irene adler*

      My first post may be in moderation as I provided links.
      So, suggest googling for professional organizations for translators. Might even use “Japanese” as a qualifier. They will be able to give you some feedback and ideas.

    4. Torrance*

      What are your thoughts about teaching? Have you looked into TEFL? It’s a complicated process and fairly competitive these days but, since you like the culture & language and are looking for something truly immersive, you could work as a teacher while also learning yourself (both through immersion & JLPT prep courses in Japan). I know people who have done that and were able to find non-teaching jobs in Japan after their contracts ended.

      If that’s not what you’re looking for, jobs might not be as hard as you think to find, depending on how willing you are to move around. I live in a relatively rural part of the Midwest and we have several factories where Japanese language skills are a plus. And they’re not all translation work. Some are just administrative assistant or office manager kind of jobs.

      1. Moxie Pepsi Coke*

        Teaching sounds wonderful! I thought there was an age cutoff for those programs for some reason, so I’d waved them off. Definitely going to have to look into that.

        1. Torrance*

          You might be thinking of JET– it’s the program that tends to get the most recognition and definitely skews younger– but age tends not to be an issue unless you’re 40+. You’ve got plenty of time!

    5. Gatomon*

      I graduated with a minor in Japanese, and it has not helped me find work at all. I doubt it would’ve made a difference if I’d completed my double major as intended either. To really work with the language you have to get to fluency, and Japanese is a tough language to get there with. You would likely need a least a master’s and a high JLPT certification to work with it. Many undergrad programs will require a trip abroad before you can graduate. (I ended up with the minor because I just couldn’t foot the cost of a semester in Japan.)

      Translation or teaching are the two main areas. Translation would likely be combo’d with another, more employable skill like you said. You’d translate from Japanese to English.

      Teaching is easier to do if you decide to teach English in Japan. You can teach Japanese in the US (or wherever you’re located) but I think most positions are at the college level. My school district had a program growing up, but it appears it was cut at some point because it’s not even listed on their website today. I’d expect you’d need a master’s to make that path viable, PhD for college-level.

      It’s a great language and culture to learn about, but there’s isn’t the kind of demand for it that you find with Spanish. Japanese is also a very difficult language to learn, you’ll have to dedicate thousands of hours to this to even get near fluency. (I took Japanese from middle school through college and was not ever close to fluent.) The other sticking point is that English is commonly taught in Japan, so many Japanese people have some level of English proficiency.

    6. downunderer*

      I really don’t want to be negative but this was my experience (admittedly many years ago).
      After a university scholarship for a summer in Japan I fell in love with the country, taught English 6 months (loved the country, hated teaching English in a private school), did postgrad in Japanese in my home country for a couple of years. Even with that amount of study when I went back to Japan it took a long time to get decently proficient in the language. I did IT over there and found it hard to get work as a foreigner (that bit’s probably changed now)

      When I left Japan I thought I’d have a killer skillset with the IT and Japanese – not so. Very few jobs, mostly help desk stuff. I even looked to UK and worldwide – specialist agencies advertising roles for my IT skillset AND Japanese often paid less than the IT skillset alone. While I did end up using my Japanese at times it was not really recognised; I still get the odd recruiter email for completely ridiculous basic roles because having ‘Japanese’ in my resume obviously triggers their filters.

      As someone else noted, Japanese is a *hard* language to get fluent in – I’d have never been able to go for a translator role even after several years. This is quite a good recent post on teaching in Japan (the guy’s blog is well worth a read)
      https://japaneseruleof7.com/work-in-japan-japanese-rule-of-7/

    7. Arts Akimbo*

      I’m coming to this conversation really late, so I hope you see this! Japanese is a highly-in-demand language for tour guides. A multilingual friend of mine has had great success in this area primarily because Japanese is one of her languages. In fact, the company was so excited for her to hone her fluency that they paid for her to go to Japan for six weeks for an intensive language program!

  158. Me--Blargh!*

    Still no luck. I’ve tried applying to different staffing companies but they either ignore me or fail to submit me for anything. I just marked one off my list after sending a check-in email and getting radio silence. I had a phone interview this morning, but it was so perfunctory I doubt anything will come of it.

    I’m still applying directly, but with zero results. Before, I was stuck in my house; now I’m stuck in a space that isn’t mine, in a much smaller and incredibly boring town. Maybe I should have stayed in SmallerCity, gone back to fast food, and just resigned myself to dying alone with the sound of chainsaw barking echoing around me.

    1. Reba*

      re: the dog, at least that’s one step in the right direction. It reminded me of a time when I lived for several months near people who raised chickens, i.e. had roosters. I have never felt more murderous.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        I used to have chickens, but I had to get up really early for work anyway, so it didn’t make much difference. At night, they were in a coop kind of away from the house. You couldn’t really hear them until you went outside to let them out.

        I didn’t tell the new owner of my house about the dogs because I have no idea how long that situation will last. Neighbor was pretty sick of them chewing everything up so likely she will evict their owner soon anyway, especially since she wasn’t able to buy it herself and rent it to her.

  159. Insert Witty Name Here*

    When you’re interviewing for a job, can you request an interview with the people that you will be working with directly? Or to at least meet with them as well? My last couple of jobs, my coworker that I worked directly with was not in the interview. We got along for the most part, but it was awkward at times.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      You can probably ask. It’s a fairly reasonable request and, depending on how involved you would be with the team, the company may appreciate you thinking of that. On the other hand, if they say no, that might tell you a bit about the culture.

      Do you you think meeting your coworker in the interview process would have changed your decision or made it less awkward to work with them?

    2. Fikly*

      Maybe not during the interview process, but I think it would be ok after an offer is made, but before accepting it.

  160. Hush42*

    How do I professionally say “No, my team will not take on that responsibility?”

    A few days ago the manager of a different department came to see me to ask my team to change the way we handle something because the change would make his teams lives a lot easier. I want to be a team player and help out but the change he was asking for would require changing from taking 5 seconds to send a form e-mail (that my team has saved as a template) to taking about 10 minutes to create a “project” on his departments work board instead – the e-mail we send goes to a different board his team can see as a ticket instead of a project. I told him that I ‘d prefer not to because that would cause a lot of extra work or my team. He then went on to tell me how inefficient the whole current process was for his team. But from what I could tell his whole complaint boiled down to he wants this thing to happen but doesn’t want his team to have to do it. I did ask him if there was a way to take the ticket we generate and make it a project and he said that there was but it would require extra work for his team (exactly the same amount of extra work he wanted my team to do). Based on some of his statements I go the impression that he doesn’t fully understand the entire process and I told him that I would be happy to sit down with him and the other person who would be effected by this change to discuss what the process currently is. But I did continue to tell him that it would cause quite a bit of extra work (each of my team members send the e-mail multiple times per day). I offered to make small changes that would alleviate the bulk of what his complaints were but he said that he had to work out a new plan since I said no to his original plan and would get back to me.
    I told my boss what other manager had requested and his response was “well I want a Pony that doesn’t mean I can have it” and then told me he was proud of me for standing my ground.

    The problem is that this happens ALOT there is a weird thing in my company where most of the people who don’t work directly with my team think my teams jobs are really easy and that they don’t have a lot of work (completely untrue) so they should be able to take on excess work. I am just looking for a better script than “well that’s a lot of extra work” to shut these types of requests down without coming off as being rude or not a “team player”.

    1. Asenath*

      Things came in two types at my job – there were the things that someone at a higher level simply implemented without telling people at my level, and by some odd coincidence they always involved us doing work they used to do – that sort of thing I never did figure out how to stop. But if it came up in a meeting , I could and did say something like “Well, I do see your point, but that really won’t work for us because of (reasons).” Sometimes I could add on something like “When this was tried before, a lot of inconvenience (examples) was caused to (major stakeholders).” I got good at being polite but firm, and sometimes it worked.

      But if the person trying to dump work on you is enough higher in the food chain, there’s not much you can do about it. I still remember the time we got an extra position so we could hire someone to work on job X, and found out after the fact that since we now had so many staff, we would be taking over major tedious jobs A, B and C from another group. In what world does that help us with our workload?

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Yeah, “that’s a lot of extra work” is never a good response, because it sounds like you just don’t *want* to work harder. (Which is legit, because no one does, but you know what I mean.) I’d say something like “I wish I could help you, but it’s just not possible for my team to take on so much extra work.” And add “But I’d be happy to sit down with you and help you figure out how to do this on your own” when appropriate.

    3. Brownie*

      I use “Since that will affect my/our current workload I can’t make that decision, my manager will have to approve it.” Then I give my manager a heads-up that so-and-so will be talking to them about it and my estimate of how much time now and in the future it’ll take. Sometimes it’s a good idea, most of the time it’s exactly what you describe where the requestor doesn’t realize it’s hours of extra work on my end vs minutes on theirs on a repeating basis. By framing it as work my manager will have to approve I can still look helpful and it helps to get my manager looped in to who is trying to circumvent him by coming straight to us.

      1. tangerineRose*

        Yeah, I’ve done this too, and it tends to work really well. Some people don’t even bother asking the manager.

        Plus, based on the below, you have an excellent manager!
        “I told my boss what other manager had requested and his response was “well I want a Pony that doesn’t mean I can have it” and then told me he was proud of me for standing my ground.”

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Since this is happening often, I’d suggest you get together with your boss and talk about this. In the past when I have done this the boss’ reply was, “I did not realize this was happening so often. From here forward, all requests MUST come to me, not you.”
      Boy, did that end that quickly. And it put a dead halt on the stupid questions, “Here, NSNR, will your team do 3 hours worth of work so my team can avoid 5 minutes of extra work?” They KNEW not to ask the big boss that question.
      So I took with one hand and gave with the other hand. You asked about sounding professional and what I did was I came up with ideas that we could actually do. In offering an alternative suggestion, I sounded like I actually heard what the person said. That automatic NO can be very off putting, showing some thought can be helpful. It looks like you are already doing this, so keep doing it.

      And I did speak up more about what can be done. When I said yes to a request, I made sure to say,”Anytime you need that let me know.” This also made me sound professional/supportive. And it helped with the sting when I did have to say no. I had a bad habit of neglecting to say when I could help, I put more effort into expressing what I could do.

      If you need time to think about something be sure to say so. “Let me think about this, I have a meeting right now and I can get back to you at x time.” Sometimes with just thinking about something for a bit I was able to say no less often, because I developed a plan that made it easier for everyone. In time people will figure out it’s not a stall tactic on your part and that you actually indeed are thinking about it.

      Like you are saying, in one instance our department was seen as not doing that much. Indeed some of my peers were not the strongest workers, so that did not help. But we had a department head who was very understanding, okay, I think we scared him by what we were able to do. We were pretty damn productive. He became our microphone and got people to stop dumping work or asking us to do things so they could get out of doing work. I think you have a similar setting where you need to loop your boss in as to how much this happening and get some boundary lines drawn.

  161. Marguerite*

    I work at the type of job where you basically have to be bleeding from the eyeballs to take a day off. This isn’t right. My boss also thinks you’re going to leave when you are absent. Has anyone dealt with this before? What did you do?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I ended up pretty sick, so I did a life makeover. But it wasn’t because of the job itself, I wanted my health back. However, I learned that self-care is absolutely critical. I also did a lot with how I paced my time off, I marked holidays on the calendar and scheduled vacation time when there was a lull in holidays. This way I always had time off to look forward to.

      Try to figure out if this is your boss’ quirk or if this comes from upper management. If it’s just a quirk of your boss and TPTB are less worried, then it might dial back some of the pressure/anger to know that.

      But also start looking around for something better for yourself. It’s been my experience that places that micromanage attendance also have other problems going on.

      Understand that your boss privately knows they can’t manage people. People who don’t know how to manage do this type of stuff, they have no other skills in place to use. Now how embarrassing is that?! All the employees of this person can clearly see this person cannot do the boss-job.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      It’s not normal for a manager to be suspicious people are going to leave… because they have a cold or are out sick one day. I’d wonder what else is wrong with this manager or company if they’re that paranoid?

    3. tangerineRose*

      “My boss also thinks you’re going to leave when you are absent. ” Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophesy to me. I’d say “look for another job”. If the boss doesn’t let you take decent care of yourself (taking a sick day here and there as needed), the boss can deal with lots of turnover.

  162. Beth Jacobs*

    I didn’t get a position that was a bit of a reach, but where I got among the final two candidates anyways. The org really liked me and said they have a few other openings that are more junior and that I’d be very good for and that they’ll be in touch regarding interviews with different hiring managers but… I’m still a bit sad? I know I could have answered some questions better, prepared differently…
    Nevermind, I’m sure there’s a great position for me out there, plus I am currently employed so no rush – but can I just get some virtual hugs please :( ?

    1. LQ*

      You should be really proud that you got to the final 2 in a “reach” position and that shows that its not really that much of a reach at all. Final 2 is amazing. You can totally do this!

    2. Catsaber*

      I was a finalist for a “reach” position a few years ago…and the hiring manager asked if I was interested in one of the more junior positions. I interviewed and was offered the job, and accepted it – it was a lateral move for me, but more money, and I really wanted to get out of my old dept. It turned out great – loved the team, loved the work, and then I was promoted 6 months later to the “reach” position! So good things can come from that, if you choose to go down that path.

      Still sending virtual hugs! Good luck!

      1. Beth Jacobs*

        Thank you, and LQ, for these kind words. Your situation sounds really similar to mine :)
        I wasn’t at all invested in the position until I realised I had a real shot at it. I’m very strongly considering the more junior positions, which would be a move to more interesting work – and also towards a 15 min walk commute.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I’m so sorry. But you do know that trying counts. Sometimes just even trying is such a big deal. And you came pretty close, close enough for them to keep you in mind.

      I know of a setting here, where a person applied two years, yes, two years ago. She got a call last month. (She knows the job setting well, so she would understand why positions don’t come up often.) She was thrilled to be remembered. Sorry to be vague, but the point is we just don’t know what seeds we are sowing that will sprout in the future. Keep looking up and keep looking ahead. They thought enough of you to encourage you in the ways that they were able to encourage you and that is something to hold on to. Again, very sorry and virtual hugs.

      1. Beth Jacobs*

        You are so right. Sometimes we don’t see the result of our efforts right away, but I like to think it will all work out in the end :)

  163. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Borderline rage tears stage has kicked in. Nothing is going right.

    The holiday party is going sideways. I just want it to be over with. I know that people will complain until the stupid thing is over with and I’m just over it. People are casually dropping out and I’m like “Cool. Take me with you.” [Okay I don’t actually say that, I just say “We’ll miss you but totally understand!”

    Meanwhile I have hundreds of binders to unload and I don’t want to put them in the trash. The tiny hippie child inside of me is throwing a tantrum because local schools don’t want them because they’re used. Yes, they’re used…in the literal sense. But they were filled with records and shelved, they weren’t ever really leafed through, they were shelved and forgotten about. It was that “Just in case we have backup paperwork over here!” pile that never got purged [surprise, nothing has been purged since the beginning, so I’m processing all that. But nope, used is used and therefore it’s trash according to the local school districts. I’m reaching out to rural areas now because they tend to be pretty much unable to be picky. But man…I hate killing the environment. I hate that they used these things to begin with when they could have just put them in banker boxes for retention and storage purposes.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I really don’t like the fact Goodwill takes advantage of the develop mentally disabled [there are movements in action to remove their ability to pay those workers lower than minimum wage but as far as I’m aware it’s not nationwide]. So giving to their organization kills me inside so it’s the battle of “which is worse, someone profiting off the backs of the disabled while acting like they’re doing them some kind of favor” or “kill the Earth with your trash.”

        Sadly I looked and can’t find any other thrift shops to unload such a massive amount of stuff on.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            There are none in this state =( I’m glad you mentioned that though, I wasn’t aware of that foundation. They do have a branch here but no stores.

            We have a couple small time places but they really frown on this kind of mass load. Worse case though, I could take them in small batches! So thank you and other commenters, I hadn’t thought of breaking the stupid donation up *head desk*

        2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          It would be a lot more work, but could you offload small amounts at a time…? Like, setup a deal of, “We’ll drop off __ binders per quarter.”

          Also…what’s up with the schools not taking the binders?? So weird.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            I reached to my hometown to see if they want them, since they’re small and therefore I think they may be “less picky”. The line they gave me [the local ones, large metro area] says it’s for “consistency”

            But…you’re helping out the disadvantaged youth…but you care that everyone’s free binder is exactly the same? That’s more of a stigma to attach to someone, so all the kinds know “those binders are the free ones that the school hands out if your parents can’t buy you one of your own.” Consistency is a good way to actually just put a big target on a kid’s back is more like it. But it’s brand new… so I guess that’s better…

            If you were giving them to EVERYONE and nobody was bringing their own stuff, I totally get that you want absolute uniformity. But I had plenty of years when people would donate their gently used stuff to a family that needed it. I came from a really dirt poor area, so my first reaction was “I need to give these to kids who can use them.”

            I find it kind of funny that they’re constantly asking for donations so I thought it was a sure deal. Only then I was told “Nah not those though, cuz consistency y’all.” By donations, they want money, btw. Lots of links on their sites about how you can give them money, go figure.

            I will deliver them personally and told them I could do it in shifts if storage was an issue. Instead I’ll see if the hometown can use them and bus them personally the 400 miles or whatever it is, I visit enough and am happy to take a Monday off to drop them off one morning on my way home.

    2. Hush42*

      Worst case- I think Office Depot has a Binder recycling program where they’ll accept old binder and then take them apart and recycle the pieces. Although the last I heard about it was a few years ago so I’m not sure if it’s still going on. Also I think that there was a limit of like 6 binders at a time so, depending on how many you have, it might require separate trips.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m going to look into this…it would take about 50 trips if they do have a limit. But I’d honestly rather take them there six at a time until they’re gone then donate them to Goodwill.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This actually lead me down a research hole about donating them! There are a few options. Most of them involve shipping them and eating that cost or other costs…but we’re going to have to pay for waste disposal anyways.

        So this is certainly going to be my go-to if I cannot find someone who wants them. Thank you

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Nothing like holiday pressure to make the season so festive. /snark.
      I feel you.

      Parties are what they are, one whole department did not show up at ours. So it goes. It’s kind of snarky of me, but I believe we live in a day where if we are not part of the solution then that makes us part of the problem by default. Complainers will complain but they won’t offer fixes. I tell people I agree and if they have ideas for how to make improvements I am most willing to listen. It’s surprising who offers ideas and the ideas themselves are quite surprising sometimes, in good ways.

      Binders. I hope you chuckle. We take excess stuff and put it out by the curb with a free sign on it. Usually it disappears over night. At home here, one time I had too many of one type of plant. I bagged them up and put all 100 of them out by the curb. They were gone in 22 hours, I timed it. Maybe this won’t work in your area, but maybe you can leave some out for the employees to take? Maybe there aren’t a lot of employees, so perhaps the few employees could ask around and help find places that would take them?

      I hope you can take time this weekend to put something restorative in to you. It’s just a tough time of year and I know I need to take extra steps to recharge myself.

      1. irene adler*

        Yes! I’ve seen this work for the strangest items.
        A friend posted that she was demoing her wood deck. Free wood. And yep, someone took it all. Said they would use it as fire wood. They were happy to get it.

        I put an old sink+counter top out in my driveway for our local refuse company to collect (for a fee). Marked it with the refuse company name. Not 5 minutes later, an unmarked pick-up truck stopped, picked up the entire thing and tossed it into the truck bed. I’ve done this with a few other items over the years.

        Had to call the refuse company to cancel their pick up.

      2. Anonymato*

        My area also has something called FreeCycle – group that you can offer any stuff you don’t need any more for free. It’s awesome.

    6. LilySparrow*

      There are nonprofits and churches that do backpack supply drives separate from the official school program, and some around here that supply “resource rooms” in the local elementary schools with jackets, shoes, change of clothes, and some school supplies.

      The nice thing about the resource-room model is that it’s not restricted. Anybody can go get something during the day, like if a kid fell and ripped their pants, or forgot their jacket and the weather changed, or their binder rings went kablooie. So there’s no poverty stigma, it’s just for anyone who had a situation that day.

      Might be worth checking if anyone is doing that – they’d probably love to have sturdy, clean binders, used or not.

    7. WellRed*

      I unloaded a massive amount of used binders by posting them on FB marketplace. Several people (including a teacher!) wanted the whole lot of them.

    8. Anono-me*

      Are there any NPOs nearby that need binders for their offices?

      Are there any colleges nearby? I know when I was a broke college student I would have loved free binders.

  164. Justin*

    I was really dreading something I had to do at work today (after my usual Thursday that involves work and then a late night at school) and I think it actually went over really well. It’s a huge relief.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Am grinning, sometimes I feel like superwoman when I get Dreaded Thing done. Other things look so much easier comparatively. Make sure you give yourself a reward of some sort. Congrats.

    3. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      I’ve found that sometimes something I’ve been dreading goes a lot easier than I thought.

      Sometimes.

      Go you!

  165. LGC*

    Comment 1000, here goes!

    So, for background, I work in Jersey City with people who have varying disabilities. I’m sure most in the US are aware of the attack in Jersey City on Tuesday – thankfully our office is across town from where the attack was, but a few employees live in the area.

    Tuesday is the service for the detective that was killed in the line of duty, and it’s at a church less than a block from my office. I’ll be fine getting to work myself, but I’m a little worried that my team might panic. I’ve tried to let them know everything that’s happening but what else can I do? (I’m just excusing everyone for being late as well.)

    Further, I’ve heard there’s going to be a 21 gun salute, which…I’m hoping that no one in my department is affected too much (I think I actually have the worst noise sensitivity in my project, and I’ll be fine), but I know other people in other departments might panic a bit.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Can you check with the police and find out when the salute will be done? Just explain that you work with a diverse group of people some of whom might be distraught by the sound. Then say you can prepare something if you know ahead of time.
      I used to turn on a radio in thunderstorms for my dog. I have to say, it helped me also. I am trying to get a friend interested in doing this, she has a bad time with storms. I suggested a cordless radio for her setting because of the lightening. Perhaps you can bring in a radio and the music will blur the noise or maybe you can stream on your computer.

      Going the opposite way, perhaps you can offer that the department stand (sit) together for a moment of silence while the guns go off. Sometimes people just need to stop other things and be together.

      If you find out the time you can alert other department heads, “Hey I dunno if this is a concern for your department, but I thought I would do this in my department…..” Let them figure the rest out for their own departments.

    3. Antilles*

      The biggest thing would be to just let your team know that you know this service is happening on Tuesday, you’ve heard there might be a 21-gun salute as part of it, and that you’ll be understanding if people are late due to traffic or if someone gets stressed by the sounds of the memorial and wants to sneak off to the bathroom for a couple minutes.

  166. Jaid*

    For the first time in YEARS, my unit is doing potluck over the next week. My contribution is vegan kugel (think sweet baked noodles).

    There’s concerns at work about if the government gets shut down or not. There’s a tentative agreement, yo, but who the hell knows if it’ll get signed.

  167. Peep Ops*

    Late to the party but I got really great advice from the community two weeks ago about my startup role (50% of the time I’m miserable, it’s an amazing career trajectory but having a hard time/not feeling up the culture after 7 months, don’t agree with the company direction, etc). The need to leave was reinforced by our most recent company all-hands where our CEO was sharing again our goals and shared that “we want this place to be career defining; that you look back and think ‘man that was really really hard, and extremely challenging. But I grew more from this place than anywhere else'” and reinforcing AGAIN that it is going to continue to get harder and more stressful in the next years. (Amazon copycat I guess?)

    I have a feeling that some of the leadership team started to notice I was feeling burnt out as a few of them started chatting up with me more and being overall kinder this week, but think the stress of the job finally caught up with me. Have been in the midst of a multi-day nervous breakdown and last night found myself ugly crying behind a coat rack at the company holiday party (that I was supposed to be leading). Thankfully a few trusted work friends jumped in to take over MC/event coordination and my amazing husband was able to shuttle me out of the party relatively unseen. Working from home for now, but looks like it’s time for me to develop a serious exit strategy.

      1. Peep Ops*

        Thanks! I know it’s typically considered taboo to quit without another job lined up but job prospects in Denver (where I live) are honestly pretty good and am in the process now of interviewing for a company I have a ton of connections with. I think I may just take the whole on of January off and really take inventory of my life.

  168. Vertigo*

    How do you respond to your boss asking if you don’t think your positions is a good fit and want to leave? I mean, I do know I don’t want to work here anymore and the problems I have are not going to change (the main one being, my boss); the only reasons I haven’t left are that I need money and personal/mental issues have made it really hard to keep up with the job search. But obviously I can’t just SAY that, and even if I said a nicer version, what would the “next step” be? Besides “thanks for resigning, good luck in your future endeavors.”

    1. Kiwiii*

      there’s a possibility that he’ll work to find you a different place in the organization or help you with contacts or skills that you might need in your job search. That said, since you’ve stated that he’s the problem, that probably means he’s looking to either call it quits just then or looking to manage you quickly out.

    2. fposte*

      That’s a hard position; I’m sorry. What you do about that kind of conversation will depend on your resources and your relationship with your boss. There are good scenarios where you can say “You know, I really thought this would work for me but it seems like we’ve both noticed I’m struggling. I think I could keep things ticking over for eight weeks while you look for a replacement and I find something that fits me better.” There are also scenarios (and it sounds like this is one, given your comment about your boss) where all you can do is say “Everything’s fine” and hope for the best. As you’re probably aware, though, that means that they think you’re not thriving in this position and may be considering action about that, so it would make sense to prioritize your job-searching energies so that you have a place to land.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      You might need to negotiate when your last day will be. You need to focus hard on your job search. You also need to have an emergency plan in case you lose your job before you find another one.
      I don’t think there’s any harm in agreeing with your boss that your job isn’t working out for either one of you and you’re willing to work with them towards a solution. Are there any resources at your current job that can help you find another one? HR, resume help, etc?
      Best of Luck.

  169. Kiwiii*

    So I’ve been at my new (great!) job for about 4 months now. I like the work I’m doing a lot and even though there’s a lot of varied tasks to the job so the learning process is pretty slow, I’ve been told I’m doing a pretty good job.

    One of the people (Luke) training me, whose project I’m in the process of taking over, has moved to another team. It shouldn’t effect his availability or anything, and he’ll still work on the project, just doing more technical work while I do more client-facing. Luke’s been pretty nice, if a little flaky and a little micromanage-y. Tuesday, we talked about how I would probably take the lead in the client meeting on Wednesday, and planned out that I would mostly handle the first half, and he would be taking the back half and answering any technical questions that came up. Wednesday came and I saw him posting in a group chat for the other project we work on together, so I didn’t think to check in with him in any other way (and he’s been here for ages, so shouldn’t need reminders, and it’s not like we don’t use a calendar app that sends him reminders.)

    But then the meeting came and Luke just … didn’t show up. I messaged him through the company messaging program at a minute after, no response. My boss, Jess, is in the room and messages him through the company messaging program and texts him, no response. it’s 5 after, the clients are on the phone and slightly annoyed, I can’t share my screen because Luke didn’t add me to the meeting app properly. I start the meeting, flustered, nervous and annoyed and not sure where Luke is. It feels a little like he set me up to fail or was playing some weird, sink or swim power play. Despite everything, the meeting goes fine. Jess fills in the pieces he can for the client and after it, says I’ve done fine, the clients seem fine.

    Luke messages me about 2 hrs later saying that he completely forgot about the meeting (the standing, monthly client meeting; the one we’d talked about the day before) and had gone to work from home. I’m mad, but i’m also just surprised at how unprofessional he’s been. I ask him about items I didn’t know the technical pieces of, we move forward. Jess checks in with me later and asks what happened, let’s me rant about it a little and seems annoyed with Luke. But Jess isn’t Luke’s boss anymore and he’s pretty easy-going in general, so I don’t know that he said anything to Luke or Luke’s boss. Should I ask him to say something to Luke’s boss? Is it appropriate for me to say something to Luke’s boss? What would I even say? It seems like a serious lapse in judgement, if nothing else.

    1. Close Bracket*

      I recommend that you tell Jess you would like to talk over the no-show with Luke’s boss and take your direction from how Jess responds. It is appropriate to bring this to Luke’s boss’s attention, but whether it’s appropriate for you to do it directly or for Jess to do it is something that is specific to your company’s culture.

  170. Amethyst*

    This week I learned that my department of 5 people’s movements are closely & heavily observed by others in the building who have no reason to do so & running off to our boss & Grandboss with their reports on our movements. The building hosts 24 people, but we’re part of a very large company. Boss & GB haven’t told these busybodies to keep their noses in their own business, so this is going to continue, unfortunately, & I’m really highly annoyed over this. 2 of us sit apart from the other 3 due to a layout quirk so our movements are more noticeable than the other three’s are. We had a meeting to update us on company stuff & GB mentioned specifically that those people are telling him that we’re “chitchatting a lot, mostly in the mornings and when Boss isn’t here. I’m so very busy & working my butt off & I just see them talking all the time.”

    By nature of the business, my department has to wait for someone to give us work. When we don’t have this work & we’ve done all our other job duties, there’s literally nothing else to do until someone gives us work, & that only happens when they’re done with their side of things. Also, we might cluster if we have a question & are discussing potential work-related things. The people who are tracking this really don’t have an idea of what we’re doing.

    So I’m just really irritated that people are being ridiculous & my bosses aren’t telling them to quit tattling to them. & I’ve been asked to “look busy” at my desk even when I can’t do anything.

    1. CatCat*

      Ugh, this reminds me of my first job out of college. Had this exact same issue. This was a culture problem and one of many.

      I’d just keep doing what I am doing. If the bosses bring it up again, I think you can address it in a few ways:
      * Say what you said here about the nature of the work and that those complaining have no idea of the substance of your conversations. What should you do when you need to have a work-related conversation with your colleagues?
      * Explain that there is natural down time. Is there some other work that they want you to be doing in that time though?
      * If they ask you to look busy, ask for clarification on what “looking busy” looks like. What exactly is it that they’re asking you to do here?
      * Ask expressly something like, “Is there something you need me to improve on in quality or quantity of the work I am producing?” And if they say yes, take that to heart and see about improving. If they say no, act confused (because it’s confusing that they’re acting like there’s an issue with you when there isn’t an issue with you) and say something like, “If there’s not an issue with my work, I’m not clear on the problem. It sounds like someone is complaining about something that isn’t a problem. It sure seems like someone is trying to stir things up. I certainly don’t spend company time monitoring other employees as that would be inappropriate. I don’t know why other employees would think it’s appropriate to be monitoring me.” If the busybodies can complain about you, I don’t see why you can’t turn it around on them.

      1. Amethyst*

        I did ask the first two when Boss pulled me in for a chat before the meeting. I pointed out I’d done *literally* everything I could possibly do, including maintenance on a certain folder on our shared drive that never gets the time of day even though it’s used a billion times daily, hence why I was over with the others. Boss stated several times that she well understood the nature of my particular department & asked me to just look busy. I again asked how when I have NOTHING to do. She looked at Supervisor (she was in it, too) like she was fully stumped as to how to answer my question when, at that point, I’d be surfing the internet. They couldn’t come up with anything else.

        We were all told several times in the meeting with GB that we’re a fantastic team; we get everything done; we’re extremely efficient, & he has no problems with us or the quality of our work. When we get hit with a ton of work, we’re on it & we get it done well within the timeframe they need it to be done in. We were all shocked at the specificity of the complaints (mornings, when Boss isn’t here) & none of us had our tongues with us when they opened the floor to us. I’m definitely going to keep your script in my back pocket if it comes up again.

      1. Amethyst*

        LOL. I asked this exact question to Supervisor after I got home from work & had a chance to process. She didn’t have an answer for me as she was just as taken aback as I was by it. We all were saying the same thing the next day as well.

  171. Catherine*

    Late to the these but I hope I can get some advice.

    My boss has changed the rules about eating at work in a way that is triggering the ghost of my minor past eating disorder and prevents me from eating during the day.

    Previously, everyone could eat at their desks. Now we are forbidden hot food (hot coffee or tea is still ok) and any food with a discernable smell (including but not limited to chicken, deli meat, things which contain garlic or onion, egg salad sandwiches, some kinds of cheese). We’re at the point where I cannot bring myself to eat in the office because even if a food is “acceptable” (I hate that I am returning to a place of Acceptable and Unacceptable Foods) my boss is scrutinizing my food to make sure he is ok with it.

    Compounding this, most restaurants in our neighborhood close between lunch and dinner service to prep. I usually can’t get away from my desk until after the lunch service is over due to the volume of urgent work I handle. We do not have a break room (everyone is classified in such a way that “no break room”and “no entitlement to breaks” are legal in our jurisdiction). If I can get away from the office I wind up eating fast food because that’s what’s open or else huddling outside on the staircase (it’s winter) cramming a sandwich into my mouth.

    Yes, obviously I’m job hunting, but in the meantime I would like help with 1) bland, inoffensive recipes I can eat at my desk to get me through the day besides “plain rice” and 2) strategies to allow myself to eat despite being Watched.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. FoodIdeas*

      As someone else with a past eating disorder, that sounds SO tough. I don’t have any great ideas.

      Random Ideas for Foods
      What about veggies/crackers/chips and some sort of dip? Or fruit/creakers/bread and nut/seed butter?
      -Some sort of energy/granola bar? I really like Picky Bars, but there are lots of other brands as well.
      -Pasta salad with very mild dressing?

      Is there any way to push back on this or modify it somehow? A small office is turned into a break room? Or food allowed between certain hours? Is there a concern that lead to these changes?

      Best of luck in your job search, I hope you get out of here quickly.

      1. valentine*

        Does your boss have a brain tumor?

        What if you email him your weekly menu?

        Talk to him about the toll the constraints are taking. Maybe he would rather allow breaks than smell stuff. Would he let you expense lunch delivery if you agree to a selection of his approval?

        1. Catherine*

          He doesn’t much care about the toll it takes on us, and I don’t want to subject myself to further scrutiny–he comments on the “healthiness” of choices and sending him my menu would invite a lot of those comments.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I don’t have specific recipes to offer, just a (weird, but hopefully not inappropriate) suggestion: Flip through some cookbooks for patients going through chemotherapy. They tend to have many options that are bland.

      Also, your boss is terrible.

    3. CatCat*

      Your boss is ridiculous and I hope you can get out soon! Some ideas in the mean time:

      * Yogurt
      * Whole fruits, fruit cups, dried fruits, applesauce
      * Nuts
      * PB&J
      * Baby carrots, sugar snap peas, celery sticks, radishes
      * Hummus and other bean spreads
      * Avocado
      * Potato salad or even just chilled roasted potatoes
      * Broccoli slaw or coleslaw
      * Crackers

      1. Catherine*

        I’m eating yogurt when I can, but I hadn’t really thought about raw vegetables (since I try to avoid crunchy/noisy food). Maybe I should try some passive-aggressive crunching.

    4. JustaTech*

      Serious suggestion: Bars, those “meal replacement drinks”, PBJ sandwiches.

      Very not serious suggestion: liverwurst and onion sandwich. Normally my office doesn’t do lunch meetings, but we had an emergency come up, which is how I ended up in a small and stuffy conference room eating my liverwurst and onion sandwich sitting next to my boss. Who didn’t notice. Turns out really cold food doesn’t have much of a smell.

      1. Catherine*

        He gets twitchy and tantrummy in winter, and has never liked food smells or the smell of tobacco. (However, if people don’t smell soapy/perfumey enough he thinks they’re not “clean” and that can also invite disdain, so it’s not an overall problem with smells.)

    6. LGC*

      Oh my word. This post was so outrageous my browser tab couldn’t handle it and crashed.

      Anyway – so, I can’t imagine that you’re the only person that is unhappy with this state of affairs. (I mean, I have issues with food smells and noises and I find this outrageous.) But I think there are three (okay, two, and then one splits in two again) possible reasons for this: 1) someone was careless with food and your boss cracked down, 2a) someone told your boss they had issues and he handled it in a terrible way, or 2b) your boss himself has the issues with food smells.

      I think that if you get someone else on your side to help propose an alternative solution, that would go a long way. I feel like for 1 (probably the least likely), you might want to suggest a cleaning service or a dedicated food garbage disposal. For 2, you might be able to suggest that a section of the office be designated as food free in general – so you can still eat, it’s just not in that area. (You’ll probably have more luck with this for 2a than 2b.) And you should also mention that because of the nature of your work, your lunch choices are limited.

      I’m not inclined to give your boss the benefit of the doubt, but I’m assuming he’s more careless than hostile. He might have just done this without thinking about the consequences.

      1. LGC*

        And – okay, this didn’t suggest any meals, but I feel like meals that meet your boss’s approval still don’t address the issue of him inspecting your lunch (!!!) and you feeling uncomfortable because your boss is policing your meals (!!!).

      2. Catherine*

        My boss has issues with the smell, but it seems more related to his temper than to his health–he just finds it irritating. It’s not an intolerance for scent in general because he seems to prefer people who smell of aftershave/soap/perfume.

        Unfortunately, we already have a cleaning service and separate trash cans. Some other employees have attempted to get a section of the office declared ok to eat in, but management is not willing to compromise beyond buying us ice cream, which is suitably inoffensive (but also not enough to keep me fed).

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I am so sorry this is happening to you. It sounds to me like the boss is passing his own food issues on to other people.

      Being watched: Can you graze on and off all day, so that you eventually take in all the food you need but it’s not all in one period of time?

      You might want to think about a protein drink to help get some nourishment into you.

      Also I see these individual servings of drinkable soups. You don’t have to heat them up. I tried some, they are pretty good and they are filling. They are spendy so it might not be an answer for an every day meal but perhaps would be of random help here. The ones I found were in a health food store.

      Grocery stores now offer a selection of prepared foods, perhaps there is a grocery store near you where you could find lunch when the other places are closed. These stores around here have places to sit and eat. I bet if you placed an order in the morning they would have it ready for you at lunch time, too, if you wanted a certain thing.

      A thought and I do realize that it’s probably not that helpful- your boss sounds like he is incubating some really big problems. In the long run, you will be okay. You will find that new job and get on with life. Keep telling yourself this is temporary for you. Your boss, uh, probably not so much. Keep focusing on that day when you get to leave. I know I couldn’t do what you’re doing. I wish you much luck on your job search.

  172. 653-CXK*

    News and views:

    1. I had my first Christmas Party in two years today and it was a much more pleasant time than at ExJob.

    It started at 2pm (a little late) but the people were polite and considerate. People took as much food as they wanted without being entirely hoggish, there was no mad rush with clamshells to collect the leftovers, and there was no “I have to say good things because my boss is here” speeches. We got bonus checks in the morning (nothing wowzers, but a nice token of their esteem) and best wishes from our CEO.

    2. My boss and I had a talk about being more descriptive and handling the weekly financial report better (which is what I’ve been doing the better part of the week – emails got filed to their appropriate folders for review on Monday, and calls went to voicemail, which aren’t that many but I needed to concentrate). That said, I had a brain fart and in haste, I didn’t give the information I was supposed to, and one of our other departments scolded me for it (as in “what did I tell you about being specific?”) I gave them the correct information and they responded, “Thank you…just remember, be specific in what you’re asking.” (I was thisclose in telling them, “I’ll remind you of that when you forward me voicemails that I have nothing to do with.”) Today, I was very specific in what I was asking for, so there is no mistake in what I’m trying to tell them.

    3. I’m glad my boss is back. She can be a taskmaster and pop up at inopportune times (right before lunch or heading out), but she knows what she’s doing and she cares about people. While she was gone, just about everything fell in my lap (of the “calm the screaming baby” type), and I sincerely think people took advantage of that (“oh, 653-CXK knows/will do it”) Now that she’s back, a lot of that pressure has been dialed back, and I’ve been able to catch up on things I’ve been putting off.

    4. I’m beginning to learn the value of saying “no” to things…when I need to have something done, I need my full attention on it, and I can no longer feel guilty for demurring. There’s a big difference between being helpful and watching your own work suffer versus being diplomatic (“I can’t help you right now, I’m on deadline to do X, can you come back later?”). And if someone tries to con me into it (“It’ll only take a few seconds”) I’ve learned to say, “I’m sorry, I’m on a hard deadline and I need to concentrate on this.” I’m not going to let people steal time away from my job anymore – it just causes a lot of problems.

    1. 653-CXK*

      And if you’re wondering what my Gravatar is, it’s the Pogo Whammy from the 80’s game show Press Your Luck.

  173. thebirdlady*

    Super late to this but I need to vent: I am a full-time remote employee. My annual performance review was scheduled to start twenty minutes ago, via phone call. Called my boss and got her voicemail. Have yet to hear from her.

    She flakes on calls we have scheduled pretty regularly, but flaking on my *performance review* is a new low.

    I firmly believe that working remotely can be perfectly fine in many fields, including mine – but you need to have a manager just as committed to making it work as the employee is. Mine is… not.

    1. JustaTech*

      Oy. That’s when you want to start writing a review of your boss “Punctuality: Zero”.

      That sucks. Hopefully they were just unavoidably delayed by something serious but not bad? (I complained about a perpetually late coworker last week only to find that the time I finally complained he was in a minor fender-bender.)

      1. thebirdlady*

        No, I guarantee, I’ll hear from her on Monday, apologizing and explaining that she just got busy with other things.

        Our employee handbook says that punctuality and dependability are important. It also says to raise any concerns about your manager with the Executive Director. My manager *is* the Executive Director. Aaaaaarrrgh.

    2. CM*

      That’s frustrating. Commiseration: I had a shitty manager once who took away all of my job duties, refused to tell me what my job was, and then tried to weasel out of my performance review for a few months before ghosting HR whenever they asked her to do it. We hated each other, so I didn’t care what she thought of my performance, but the fact that she couldn’t even write “You suck” on a piece of paper and hand it to me on the one day she was supposed to acknowledge that I worked there was the final insult.

  174. JustaTech*

    Random delighfulness:
    My boss was just approving a day I took off this week when he saw how much vacation time I have. He comes bustling out of his office “JustaTech! Do you know how much vacation time you have?! You have to promise me you will take time off over the holiday! You need some time away from here!”
    It’s so sweet.

    (He also asked me about a month ago if I’d gone on a vacation this year and when I said no, he said I needed to be sure to get some breaks. He’s a good boss.)

  175. Rexish*

    I feel like my manager is trying to get rid of one of my colleagues and I don’t know how to take it. We are on friendly terms with this colleague and I can say that she might not be the best at her job, but she is definately good enough. I feel like one of the reasons she is not performing well is because she has not gotten the support she needed and has had to figure things out alone for the past 3 years.

    She was given a project and out grandboss gave her the info and plan on what to do. While doing it she realized that the info was wrong (not unusual for grandboss) and asked for support from senior colleagea and manager. Recieved minimal support and “you’ll need to figure it out” type comments.

    We have a new team member who started last week and for several weeks we have heared how awesome he is. He has no experience in the field but he is “awesome personality”. Manager decided to remove the colleague from the project and give it to the new person and one of the senior colleagues volunteered to be his personal tutor. Manager also said that colleague is being demoted cause he is still growing into the role whereas the new guy is already shining in the role. They basically said that my colleague is totally shit at her job and she should have known to do xyz eventhough it’s not part of the normal process and it’s her fault that she didn’t recheck everything grandboss instructed. Also this conversation was not with the manager but with manager and 3 same level colleagues.

    I have a strong feeling that my manager is trying to build a team that she wants That includes “awesome people”. I have a slight worry that I’m next. They have assigned roles for everyone else in the team except for me. Is feel like I’m forgotten quite often by the manager. I don’t want to play the asskissing game and therefore I’m not with the “in” crowed. I also say my opinion when asked (I’ve gotten praise from other colleagues about this) I’m trying to look for something else but the job market is not great.

    Any advice on how to survive while not feeling secure in the job? Lay low and keep my mouth shut? If I’m asked anything regarding our team situation should I be honest (I have a reason to believe that we will be approached with one on one discussion)?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      That sounds pretty awful for your colleague. Work can often be like high school unfortunately. Unfortunately, you probably also can’t save her.

      It depends on how much you like your job, but generally it’s easier to find another job while you have one. So, if you can bear with it a bit longer, just try and keep your head down and keep as quiet as possible whilst searching for an exit.

      1. Rexish*

        Thanks for responding. Like they say, high school never ends. It is so terrible for her. I’ve worked there a bit longer so I’m trying to be as available as possible for her so she can approach me for questions instead of the bullies.

        Job search has been started a while back. The market isn’t great at the moment but since I have a steady job, I’ve been a bit more selective on what to apply for. Maybe it’s time to widen my search a bit more.

        1. valentine*

          I’m trying to be as available as possible for her so she can approach me for questions instead of the bullies.
          This kind of solidarity doesn’t serve you, especially if you’re sacrificing your own work to do so, and because you’re guilty by association.

          Do what you can to play the game and meet the definition of awesome here unless you can leave. Think of it as an acting role and not a violation of your values. Not So NewReader has some great advice below.

          1. Rexish*

            Thank you for your input. I appreciate and understand what you are saying but I’m not gonna play the game in a way that it hurts others. I can occasionally fake laugh at a poo joke. I can also agree more enthusiastically with awesome people when they say something that I kinda agree with.

            I will support all my colleagues equally if they ask me a question or need support with something I can help with. I was never popular in high school and I don’t want to be awesome if it involves hurting others. I would never blame anyone for doing what is best for them but I don’t want to do that.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Seconding the initiation of your job search. Reach out to your network, as much as you have one.

      If you do start seeing signs of you being managed out, see if you can negotiate a neutral or positive reference for future jobs. Ask them to say something like, “Our policy is not to give references and we have to refer reference checks to HR”, to make it really clear you manager is saying “my hands are tied.” Not ideal, but better than not being able to have a reference for future job searches.

      1. Rexish*

        Thanks for the advice on reference. This was something I was wondering before. In my field when potential employee wants a reference they mean a personal reference. They already have gotten the dates from HR alternative way before getting to reference dates. My manager is a loose cannon with bad sense of humour. I’ve yet to she a conversation with her that doesn’t involve a joke with some sort of bodily fluid. I was thinking that I could maybe use my former manager who managed me in this job and grandboss. While my grandboss has faults, she is still professional and can be quite impressive to outsiders.

        Job search has been started but there are limited options at the moment. But have to keep my eyes open. I got a call from a recruiter last week. Unfortunately the pay was less and job has significantly less responsibility but I was so happy to see someone actually liked my CV. Need to take the little wins!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I am not sure how you define the term “ass-kissing game”. For me in order to work through this dilemma, I had to come up with a list of standards I would use with any boss. (If I use a standard with any boss then it definitely is not kissing up. It is just me being me.)

      Now in order to maintain a job anywhere, we have to be likable on some level. So I looked for ways to remain likable. This is going to sound stupid but it helped me with a couple bosses- I like dogs. And through that shared enjoyment of dogs, I was able to remain being seen as an actual person rather than just another gear in the mechanism. If you can find a shared interest with the boss, try to work it into an on-going conversation of some sort. Some would say this is kissing up, but reality is we do have to show some human interest as we go along. And those few minutes of talking about dogs or painting or books or whatever can offer a short break in the tension. I do know that at one job talking about dogs saved my butt for a while. At the other job talking about dogs helped to move my boss from away from their latest ax they had to grind.

      My point that I would not compromise on is that I would not give the boss false flattery. I did not give false compliments to help them feel good. And I’d be sure to give sincere compliments about other cohorts, “Bob did a nice job on the xyz report. We don’t usually get ABC information and he had it all organized. That was really cool.”

      One of the bosses that I used to talk about dogs with said that one thing they really appreciated about me was that I did not have a slew of complaints about my cohorts and it was really noticeable. I later learned this boss complained about ME all. the. time. sigh. I guess because they complained about me, people were less apt to think I was brown-nosing the boss. Who’d thunk.

      If asked about problems with your team, try to be proactive in what you say. Try to offer suggestions that lessen the problem or help in some manner. If you cannot think of any suggestions sometimes a well-framed question can make an employee look just as good. It’s a thinking person’s type question that shows thought and attention to what is actually happening. Here the overarching idea is not to get yourself fired but at the same time not compromise your principles/ethics. Let it show that you are bringing your brain to the table at all times.

      Worse case scenario you could say something like, “I think I see what you are talking about but I don’t have any ideas on what to do. If something comes to me as we go along, I can get back to you.”
      Sometimes the problem is that the boss did a poor job of describing the problem. “How do we get Jane to get along with Bob?” omg.
      So after some thought I would realize that Bob always gave his work to Jane too late in the day. This was happening because Bob had problems with x, y and z. Figure out how to fix these problems, then Bob’s work was on time and Jane’s annoyance went away. The question the boss asks is not always the question that needs to be answered. Being able to drill down through layers of problems saved my hide more than once.

      If you are able to carry a practical tone of voice most times, this will also help you. If you find you agree with someone who is usually a disagreeable, contrary person, then go ahead and agree. “I agree with Sue because of reasons 1, 2 and 3.” Get very practical in your approach to things. Know your reasons for saying what you are saying.

      1. Rexish*

        Thank you for the thoughtful respond there is definately something I will use!

        I dont really have social interaction with my manager. Only when i jeed help witb a project or team/office meeting. She has lunch and coffee breaks with the awesome people in private behind closed doors. Once we had conversation I learned a lot about how me not having kids effects some random skills (reason why I’m not great at braiding or why I dislike taking out the traah). Also I asked about her cats and I got two pussy licking jokes as a response. My colleague (and close friend) says that it got easier for her when she realise that she has no respect towards the manager.

        I will remain professional and give constructive feedback for the good of the team. I cannot be fired (or it is damn difficult). I do feel like I need to be more tactical in my approach but not lose my integrity.

        We have a occupational healthcare questionnaire result analysis on Monday so I need to think about my approach. Will pick some form this answer and the others I’ve received.

    4. Lets not name names*

      It sounds like it, and your description reminds me of something I went through just a year ago as well. Similarly, new “awesome” employee (and boss’ personal friend) came in, it was used to reflect poorly on an employee who was doing good work (had actually been awarded employee of the month just months before), but had made a couple human-error type mistakes (e.g., giving a guest the wrong address to an event). He was ultimately fired, and though the new employee was in a role that would traditionally take on his responsibilities, they managed to just delegate all his work out to more junior employees. I’m still not sure what the newer”awesome” employee does. Sadly, that “we want awesome” people type talk was then used to fire another departmental assistant who the pet employee seemed to resent having to manage (explaining company culture, asking to modify office dress type issues) after hiring them just 6 months prior. Needless to say, I’ve been job hunting since the first colleague was let go, and finally got an offer this week. I would put your head down, be a professional (which includes enough positivity and collaboration to keep things moving and being pleasant as you can muster) and accelerate your job search as much as you can. Put it out there that you are looking. It took me interviewing for about 5 positions, some I was really excited about and was quite disappointed to not get, before landing where I’m feeling really good about the focus of the work, culture, pay and benefits. Of course now that I put in my notice, higher ups are acting “shocked” that I’m leaving “so suddenly,” and treating me as if I am letting the whole company down, but I’m determined to do as thorough and organized a transition, and then look forward to rarely thinking about any of them again.

      1. Rexish*

        I’m so happy you found something for yourself! Good luck :)

        Thankfully we cannot really be fired fork our job so that’s why they bully employees instead. My manager and grandboss does the shocked thing aswell. Apparently they have put it down as how nowerdays people change jobs more often. Yeah, 6 month turnover is totally common.

  176. Stef*

    Hi, everyone. I came here to update everyone about how my goal to move away from retail to receptionist has been doing, and I need some advice.

    Unfortunately, I’m unable to temp anywhere because the two temp agencies I called can’t place me close to my hometown. Temp1 agency closed their branch office that was located in my county, so the only county they do is for Nassau county, Queen’s, and NYC. The woman who I spoke to on the phone said they don’t have any clients (people looking to temp) who come from my area but who are in those places listed above. In fact, temp1 even stated they don’t do typing tests, ask you to come in for an interview, or do anything from the last time someone commentated (I can’t remember who) on my situation. The second temp agency I called only does temping close to the end of my county, which is 45 miles away from me. There’s no other place around me, except for employment agencies within my county, and I know they won’t help me.

    Are there any ideas that I can do in order to get my foot in the door besides applying to receptionist/clerical jobs? Do doctor’s offices do intern for clerical or volunteer work, besides a hospital? After I obtain a full-time job, I plan to go to school for accounting part time, and I have some money saved. I don’t want to go to school for a business degree because I’m sure the market is saturated with that degree and I’ll still need experience in order to apply my schooling.

    For anyone who has or currently works at a call-center at a bank, I applied for that job position and was rejected due to lack of experience (for a $30,000 job) and they choose someone more qualified than me (unless that’s standard boiler-plate form rejection). What tips would you give to me if I ever interview for a call-center job at a bank. I stressed in the interview that I handled heavy phone traffic as well as phone sales (no cold calling, but customers ordering handbags over the phone). I asked in the interview what type of person, apart from the qualifications, were they looking for, and I got vague responses. Any tips are much appreciated.

    Thank you.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I don’t remember your previous posts (sorry).

      To start the transition to an office job, would a file clerk position in a law office be a possibility? It’s not that I think it’s an easy job (it’s not); I suggest it because it has high turnover, so maybe they’d be okay with hiring someone with less office experience. I used to share space with a law office and over about 3 years, the file clerk position was replaced something like 6 times. So, it’s a hard job, everyone treats you terribly (from what I’ve heard), and it’s underpaid for the amount of stress.

      A second suggestion, are there any non-profit organizations around you could volunteer for, in addition to your retail job, to gain office experience, to eventually get into the door at a paying position?

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Meant to add, it’s quite likely the email from the call center job was almost certainly standard boiler plate language.

    2. LilySparrow*

      Wow, that’s a tough situation. It sounds like you’re in a location where there just aren’t many jobs available, and that’s always going to be tricky. At some point it may get down to, change goals or move to where there are better prospects.

      For-profit businesses can’t use volunteer workers. Hospitals can, when they are nonprofits (most are). Ive never heard of an administrative intern in a medical office. I would think there might be issues with privacy if you had non-staff handling records.

      I guess if I were in that situation, I might look for something like smaller or different types of businesses that need front-desk/reception, rather than a purely office admin job.

      So maybe hair salons, places that give music or dance lessons, the YMCA or other gyms, hotels? – where they need someone to make appointments and check people in and out. Jobs like that usually get admin/clerical work added in, which could build your experience and might get you one step further away from retail.

      Maybe also look for small one or two person offices like insurance agents, houses of worship, contractors, solo lawyers, or people looking for a part-time PA. Sometimes smaller places see a lot of turnover so they are willing to train a candidate who is smart, reliable and trustworthy even without experience.

      I’m trying to think of the small/remote places Ive been in, and what type of businesses would have had admin or reception jobs. Funeral parlor? Mechanic? Or what about civil service – the courthouse? City or county offices? Social service offices?

      Sometimes in a really scarce job market, a personal connection makes all the difference. Are there any family members or contacts who could let you know about openings or put in a good word?

      I’m sorry you’re in such a tough spot, and hope things turn around for you soon.

    3. The Other Dawn*

      I work in a bank, though not the call center. From time to time I’ve talked to call center managers at my previous banks and often they weren’t looking for someone with experience, though it’s a definite plus. They tended to look for someone who can handle the various, often disgruntled, customers that call in, which means being able to maintain a pleasant demeanor even when someone is screaming at you, trying to solve the customer’s problem, knowing when to refer them to a manager or another department, and trying to get the information they need in order to help the customer. They also want someone who can refer the person to the right product if someone is calling to ask about our products. All of this can be learned, but if you’re up against other applicants who have experience, managers will usually go with the person who has experience. Unless they’re looking for people they can train from the ground up, or the person with experience is lacking the soft skills they’re looking for.

      1. Stef*

        Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, I probably stayed too long (4.5 years sales and 6 years stock experience) in retail because managers are giving me such a hard time that I want to transition out of retail. I’ve tried hotel, and I got turned down after my interview because I don’t have any knowledge how to charge customer’s credit cards. I tried a law office secretarial job, but I got rejected. I tried for a teller position at one bank, and I got turned down because I never had experience with a $10,000 drawer, only $500. I got an interview for a church secretary position, but I got turned down for a reason I don’t know.

        I got turned down from a financial service representative position probably because the current FSR holder, who is retiring, doesn’t like me and thinks I think the product knowledge is like my retail handbag knowledge (believe me, I don’t think the product knowledge would be at all the same as the handbag product knowledge guide). The FSR holder kept repeating 4 times, “this is different from retail.”
        In my town, all the jobs are out west from me, and my mom urges me not to travel because she did and she got tired of it. My mom says it’s not worth it because if you’re travelling to a job that’s paying you $14 an hour to be a receptionist (which they demand experience), you’ll be spending more money than what you’ll be earning.

        I ask my managers at my job if they think I’m a quick-learner, can handle difficult customers, and can handle a fast-paced environment, and they all say I can. They say I’m very disciplined, very calm and composed on the outside, and I’m very easy to work with on the job. However, when I do give out reference numbers to the managers at my interviews, they never contact them even when they ask for references. That doesn’t make any sense because why are you asking for references if you don’t contact them? If you contact my references, you’ll know how I am at my job.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          One thing that is coming across… it sounds like you’ve interviewed for a single hotel job, a single FSR job, a single call center job, etc. If that’s the case, then try not to take that single experience as the be-all end-all of that industry. Another hotel might have different requirements. Another bank might have a training program. That kind of thing. Along the same lines, every office is different, so requirements often change from job to job.

          Also, are you talking “travel” or commuting? You may have to drive 45 minutes to work, that happens often. Just because something didn’t work for your mother doesn’t automatically mean it won’t work for you.

        2. LilySparrow*

          Sorry, your mom is just wrong on the math.

          If she was married filing taxes jointly and paying for daycare, then yes a job like that might have wound up barely breaking even or being a net negative.

          But for a single person with no dependents, commuting 45 minutes each way is a pain in the neck, but doesn’t literally cost more than you will earn. Pack a lunch. You will still be better off.

          1. Stef*

            You still have include gas, car insurance, car maintenance, buying a car after a year (because I don’t have one. A bank isn’t going to lend out a car loan for me because I haven’t been at a full time job for at least a year), and the fact that I’ve never driven on a highway before with crazy drivers, so my mom isn’t confident that I can handle it. Also, my mom leases her cars because it’s less expensive than buying, so she can’t travel far.
            Also, the FSR position does do 2 weeks training at their headquarters, so I don’t understand why they wouldn’t see me fit that I can learn.

            2. AvonLady Barksdale*

              It sounds like your mom wants to keep you close and always at home– what do YOU want? Highway driving can be learned. Buying a used car does require money, but there are ways to do it if you have good credit. Just because she leases doesn’t mean you have to, and just because she thinks highway drivers are crazy doesn’t mean they are– or that you can’t manage. However, yes, if you don’t want to drive on a highway because YOU don’t want to, then your prospects are limited if you live in a small, semi-isolated community.

              That one FSR job, you didn’t get. For whatever reason. Maybe they found someone more qualified. Maybe your vibe didn’t mesh with theirs. It’s not usually a black-and-white thing. But that is not the only FSR job ever– put that one behind you and try for another one.

            3. LilySparrow*

              How are you getting to your job interviews?

              Not having reliable transportation of your own may in fact be a significant issue that employers aren’t mentioning. Even if the job doesn’t technically require use of a car, being dependent on rides (if there’s no public transport) may make them worry about absenteeism or punctuality. Or it could just add to a subjective impression of not being mature or experienced. And it sounds like you’re struggling against that sort of impression, despite having relevant skills.

              If you have any savings or can scrape up enough from part-time work, it might be worth it to buy a cheap used car off Craigslist or something, so you can at least do your job hunting more freely and avoid seeming dependent or flaky.

              And maybe get a buddy to coach you on highway driving, or just get out to network and meet people.

              1. Stef*

                My mom drives me to my interviews and jobs. She doesn’t have a job because she quit hers to raise me. My mom homeschooled me from grade 4 to 12, and when I graduated she started looking for jobs. However, no one was willing to hire her because her school and experience was too old (18 years out of work).

            4. Middle School Teacher*

              Have you actually done any of these calculations yourself? Your posts are full of “my mom says” and “my mom thinks”. What do YOU think? Do you really think transport costs $28000 a year? Have you calculated it? You need some objective advice, and you’re getting some good advice here. You should be listening to it.

              1. Stef*

                My mom has done it. She made less than $25,000 at switchboard for a hospital that was far away. She took the job because she got laid off and because knew a family friend who would plug her in. So, whenever I say to her that I can do it, she says gas, mileage, insurance, car repairs, ect . . . aren’t worth it and states that she has more life experience than me. My dad works as a technician for Ford, so he knows the pros and cons of buying a used car. In the end, they say it’s not worth it, and one will eventually get tired traveling far.

                1. AvonLady Barksdale*

                  What do your parents expect you to do for work? Do they expect to chauffeur you forever? Do they want you to get a job down the road from your home?

                  Your mom does have more life experience than you, because she’s been alive longer. That’s all. I urge you to figure out a way to job hunt on your own, without their input. You will make mistakes, but no one can gain life experience without making mistakes. Buy a used car. Be willing to drive 30 minutes or more to work. It will be worth it in the end.

                2. Arts Akimbo*

                  Your parents are giving you bad advice. A 45 minute commute is nothing. That used to be my commute to high school every day. People routinely do it for work. It’s not ideal, but it’s nowhere close to a deal-breaker.

        3. EventPlannerGal*

          I see where your mom is coming from regarding travel, but if you are in a financial position where you can do it for a little while and there are truly very few jobs in your area, I would suggest at least looking into some jobs that are further away. It’s not just a matter of what you will be paid for that job vs the time you spend commuting; it’s also about getting the experience that might then open up a wider range of jobs for you closer to home. I realise that this may not be possible for you, but if it is I really think it might be worth considering.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      My suggestion is to look for part time work and hope to be able to work two part time jobs.

      Just my observation, but people looking for part-timers are more willing to accept lack of experience. They realize that they cannot compete with larger places in terms of pay and benefits so they have to take some risks, such as hiring a newbie to the field.

      Let trusted folks around you know that you are looking for this type of work. Some of these jobs never get advertised because the hiring person just goes on private recommendations that they receive.

  177. Kumquat*

    Late to the game, so hopefully there is still someone reading? Evil coworker’s birthday is coming up and we’re having a party for him. He has been mean to me since I started the position and makes little insults/remarks to me. He also teams up with an older coworker and they trash talk me. I really just want to call out sick and not go. This probably won’t look good, plus they’ll give me crap for not going. Any advice?

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      Eat his cake and pretend to yourself you are eating his head. Smile beatifically at them all as if you were their benevolent ruler and their little noises meant nothing to you.

    2. LilySparrow*

      The flip side is, if they are going to give you crap no matter what you do, then you might as well do whatever you want.

      Realizing this is the first step to becoming immune to their nonsense.

  178. Lets not name names*

    This week I was finally able to give notice! This puts an end to a work situation I think I’m only partially able to see the awfulness of while I’m still on the inside. Denial has been somewhat of a coping mechanism. After a sequence of having my only administrative support laid off, coupled with a promotion (I was told my assistant was being fired, and that I was getting the promotion I’d long asked for, at the same meeting) without any raise. When I asked about compensation for my new title, they seemed shocked I would ask at such a time and I heard for weeks after from higher ups about what a bad impression that made. The promotion also seemed to trigger an automatic promotion for the owner’s personal friend (family friends, where they regularly take vacations, holidays, etc. together) brought into my department a year ago, who has considerably less experience, and nobody can seem to figure out exactly what she does, but who I was now to report to, with my new title and responsibility contingent on “getting along with her.” This put my job hunt into overdrive, and I was thrilled to get an offer in an org that feels like a decidedly better culture (from the outside a least, but I have had the opportunity to meet all the staff and some of the board), pays a little better, and puts me in a true leadership position for my role, with exciting additional focus in the area that I care about a lot. The fact that a small nonprofit was able to best my salary from a multi-million, multi-national business, without any back-and-forth, completes the picture of the culture at my former employer. I want to thank Alison for the resource she’s given us here. I used practically word-for-word her advice on negotiating salary when a range has been given, and it absolutely worked. “That seems reasonable” they said and that was that!

    Closing the chapter on this job has been so empowering and I just want to encourage anyone stuck in a bad job—don’t give up on yourself. Sadly, most higher ups have taken my 2 weeks notice as a personal betrayal, the owner left for a trip over the holidays with out a word to me or a handshake after nearly 5 years and arguably some of the best work in my department they have seen (not my own words.) At the holiday party I got the cold shoulder all night, and honestly it felt awful, trigging old adolescent insecurities. Ultimately, it’s consistent though, and makes me confident in my decision. Looking forward to 2020!

  179. Justme, the OG*

    At what point do you tell someone who’s taken over your job duties after you left that they need to figure things out themselves when they email you with questions?

    I work at a university. I left one college to work in another one. I’ve had daily emails asking me questions. And all of them could have been answered if the person taking over my duties had read the guide I made. If I weren’t insanely busy at my new job (which I love) I could take the time to answer the questions.

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      If they’re all in the manual I’d let them know Nicely that you have obligations to New College now and you really need them to check out the manual before they contact you going forward.

      1. Justme, the OG*

        I created the manual, so I know exactly where the information is. But for some reason they can never find the information or the needed file in what I transferred over.

    2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      The moment I clock out for the last time — and hence stop being paid — is the moment I stop taking questions.

      “Sorry, I left the company X date. Good luck with your question!”

        1. Arts Akimbo*

          Start replying with “It’s in the manual.” Every. Time. Let your boss know your old job is trying to take up so much of your time.

  180. Mimmy*

    This will probably get buried but I have a question about office White Elephant gift exchanges (also known as “Dirty Santa”).

    Actually, I have two of them this week – one for my internship and one for my regular job.

    For these parties, we tend to regift prior White Elephant / Dirty Santa gifts rather than buying new ones. We have one gift that we got a number of years ago during a relative’s Christmas celebration that is a mock-up of a political figure. He keeps suggesting I bring it to my office gift swaps, and I keep insisting that it is wildly inappropriate to do so.

    Please tell me I’m not overreacting!!

      1. Mimmy*

        That was my instincts as well. I can guarantee I would get in a world of trouble, especially at my job, which is a state-run facility.

    1. Just Another Manic Millie*

      Most of those incidents make me want to say OMG or WTF. I had a couple of incidents, too, but unfortunately, I’m unable to be as succinct as the posters on that webpage.

      I once worked at a company where the president was extremely nasty. One time, when I was working for him (when he was between secretaries), he kept giving me stuff to do and telling me that he needed it done right away. And as soon as I finished, he gave me more work. Finally it was after 3:00 PM, and people noticed that I hadn’t gone out for lunch. I said that I didn’t know what to do, because he kept telling me that he needed the stuff done right away. So I asked him if I could go out to lunch. To my surprise, his face got red in anger, he jabbed a finger at me, and shouted, “You went out to lunch already!” I shouted back at him, “No, I did not! You kept telling me that you needed the stuff done right away. Why do you think that I went out to lunch? Did you have to wait a long time for me to give you something because I was out to lunch? Did you see me go out for lunch? Did you ask anyone where I was, and that person said that I was out to lunch? No! Because it never happened!”

      He said that I could go out for lunch, but I was still angry, because instead of his thinking that I was a hard worker, he just thought that I was a sneak who was trying to cheat the company by taking two lunch hours. So, after that, whenever I had to work for him, I would ask him at noon if I could go out for lunch, and if I couldn’t just yet, I would ask him every ten minutes or so that he wouldn’t tell himself that I had gone out already.

      Lucinda, the receptionist, was a big slacker. One of her jobs was to let the secretary of the president know when we were running out of letterhead/envelopes/mailing labels/etc., so that she could order some more. Lucinda couldn’t be bothered to do that, but it was something that had to be done, so the office manager announced that it was now “Lucinda and Millie’s job” to do it. I wasn’t too surprised to find out that I was the only one who ever told the secretary when we were running low on letterhead. I asked her, and she confirmed to me that Lucinda never said a word to her.

      For a long time, the job of secretary to the president was a revolving door. The secretaries would quit after a day or two. One of them actually walked out the door two hours after she started. I wound up doing that job in addition to my own. Then it dawned on me that we were running low on letterhead, and I was certain that it hadn’t occurred to anyone else, or if it had, that person just thought, “It isn’t MY job to worry about it.”

      I ordered some new letterhead, and then I told the office manager what I did. She said, “Okay.” Then I told the president that I had ordered it. To my surprise, he got very angry and shouted at me, “Who told you to order it?” Well, no one, I just thought it might be a good idea. He kept screaming at me. Maybe I should have consulted him before I ordered it, but he never said anything like that. All he did was scream that I shouldn’t have done it because no one had told me to do it. I didn’t dare say, “I told the office manager about it, and she said it was okay,” because I just knew that the office manager would be furious at my dragging her into it, so I just apologized to him and promised to cancel the order. Then I told the office manager about it. “Well! I guess YOU made a mistake!” she said. I guess I did.

      A few months later, another employee told me that we were out of letterhead. “Why tell me? What do I have to do with it?” I asked myself. Aloud, I said, “Oh, are we? Well, a few months ago, I ordered some letterhead, but the president got angry at me and made me cancel the order. If you don’t believe me, you can ask him, or you can ask the office manager. She knows what happened.”

      A little while later, the office manager asked me to order some letterhead. I said okay. I managed not to smirk. To this day, I have no idea why the president insisted that I cancel the order.

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