open thread – January 24-25, 2020

by Alison Green on January 24, 2020

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Pam Beesly*

    I have an informal meeting today to learn about an open internal position in another department. I’m currently an admin assistant: I love the pay and flexibility of my current job but it’s very tedious and boring; I also have no opportunity for growth in my department (I’ve asked my boss). The open position is an admin-like role that has more responsibilities than being an assistant and is a track for further promotion in that department.

    I want to learn about the day-to-day responsibilities, schedule, and pay. Any suggestions for what else I should ask?

    2. I Question Things A Lot*

      I love asking questions so I’ll try not to bombard you with ideas, lol! At the very least, depending on what you already know about the role, I would ask what kind of person exceeds expectations in the position and what challenges the person in the position would face. I personally love those questions because it gives me an insight into what kind of person/traits the hiring manager is looking for and what I need to be prepared for.

      1. Rayray*

        I submitted some applications/resumes online last week. I haven’t heard back from any of the 4-5 I sent out. Should I call to follow up? I heard that advice all the time, but also hear that some hiring managers don’t like it. If I should follow up, what’s a good time frame for that?

    3. College Career Counselor*

      Find out about the longer term/bigger projects this person will work with (and by extension the people). Any particular growth/training/professional development courses or expectations in the role?

    4. Hazelthyme*

      -Tell me about a typical day or week in this position
      -What kind of skills/actions distinguish someone not just good at the job, but really great?

      I wouldn’t ask about schedule or pay at this stage, though you might be able to get a sense of the latter from your company’s HR/compensation website if that exists (e.g., level A = this range, level B = another range, etc.)

      1. nep*

        I always ask some variation of that second question–I like to know what traits/skills would make someone really shine in a given role?

        1. Ra94*

          Same! And I’ve seen interviewers faces light up after being asked that. In one case, one interviewer nudged the other and said, “Now that’s a great question!” I felt a bit undeserving of the credit, since I’d just read that it was a good question to ask online…but it still made an impact.

          1. Junger*

            That’s what you call “Taking initiative to train yourself for handling a difficult situation.”

            The results impressed the client, thus improving my reputation and raised my chance of creating a long term business relationship with the client.

    5. MustLikeDogs*

      Feeling manipulated by a coworker who gave me a different story about dealing with mental illness so she could justify working from home, but turns out she just wanted to get a dog.

      I was hesitant to even discuss WFH with her when she first approached me because she’s notoriously late, is inaccurate in her work, and basically does what she wants. I brainstormed with her and asked if maybe WFH part-time might work better. Well, she went to her manager with that suggestion and said it was my idea and that I recommended it!

      Since her manager thought I was vouching for her, he agreed, but let her WFH full time temporarily so the dog could get acclimated. Now she’s asking to stay WFH full-time, which I’m totally against for a few reasons.

      She’s become dismissive and argumentative (I’ve had a hard conversation with her about her behavior, but it hasn’t changed much). when her manager came to me wanting input about should he allow her to WFH full time, I let him know of my concerns and that her mistakes cause others to shoulder her work as well as make more work for me (I oversee her and other contractors work).

      She’s also 20 minutes from the office and there are other contractors who have 1.5 hour commutes each way who are more deserving of WFH, so I’m worried about the team being resentful.

      Not to mention I’m resentful that I feel like she used my good standing and reputation to get what she wanted.

      How do I let this go? I need to continue to work with her and need to have a better relationship, but right now I’m irrational.

      1. Ra94*

        I’m confused as to whether she’s your peer, or your subordinate. If she went to her manager and the manager approved it, surely that’s on him- and you’ve already let him know your concerns. She sounds like a frustrating coworker for sure, but if you’re not her manager, she’s not your responsibility.

        1. MustLikeDogs*

          She’s not my peer, but I don’t manage her. I’m a project manager, so I manage and take responsibility for the projects she works on. I’m also senior/lead on the team, but she reports to her manager.

          1. Ra94*

            In that case, I think I’d try focusing on “I’m not being paid to manage her, so I’m not being paid to worry about her work arrangements.” It’s annoying that she DOES affect your work because you manage her projects, but I’d focus on her actual work output and not her WFH. If she’s late, flag it to her manager. If she turns in shoddy work, flag it to her manager. Whether she’s doing poor work at home or in the office, make it his issue, since it doesn’t seem like he’s managing her much.

            1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

              Yes, this. Manager was OK with it–let it unfold. Either she improves or not.

    6. I Love Llamas*

      Since this is preliminary, I would suggest not asking about pay. Let them get a feel for who you are also, so perhaps have 1-2 success/accomplishments you can mention. I know it’s not an actual interview, but you only get one chance at this first impression. Good luck!!!

      1. Pam Beesly*

        Thank you! I understand why I shouldn’t ask about pay, but if it’s drastically different from what I’m paid now, I won’t apply for the position. I don’t want to apply without knowing what the pay is, as my current boss would need to be looped in for the formal application process, and I don’t want her to know I’m looking.

        1. Madame X*

          I agree. An informational interview is a good time to ask about the pay range and schedule. This is essentially a fact finding mission about a position that interests you before spending a considerable amount of time, effort and political capital. There is no point in wasting all of that if the pay or schedule is a deal-breaker for you.

        2. Engineer Woman*

          Is there a way to get this information without directly asking about pay. Since it’s an internal position, ask what level the position is at and you may be able to determine how senior this position is compared to your current one.

    7. Red5*

      Alison just recently re-posted a column where she shares the best interviewee-asked questions she’s heard. That would be a good place to look for ideas; there were some great questions in the post.

    8. Pam Beesly*

      Thank you, everyone, for your advice! I met with the hiring manager and the position doesn’t sound like a good fit for me. I’ll keep looking and will use your advice in the future.

    9. WantonSeedStitch*

      You could ask how the position came to be open, if you don’t already know. Is it a new role? Did the person who was in it get promoted (good sign)?

      You could ask, “what are the biggest challenges someone in this role is likely to face?” If it turns out you’re going to be chasing after people for information all day who are notoriously unresponsive, for example, you might decide it’s not for you.

  2. Animal House*

    I’m feeling frustrated at work. I have to work with “Wakeen”. Wakeen is manager of Teapot Inventory. He likes to socialize and joke around a lot, but when it comes to actual work, he sort of picks and choses what he wants to do or not do and whom he wants to help. He also likes to mess with me. He’ll give me the wrong information or send me to go speak with the wrong person, just for laughs.

    When he needs something, I always help him and turn my work in on time, but I don’t receive the same courtesy in return.

    I work in the type of place where joking is common, so I don’t know if I have high standards or am being too uptight, but it upsets me when it interferes with my work.

    He doesn’t act like this around the boss. It’s sort of a “kiss up, kick down” environment, which adds to the matter. The boss and him are friends, so boss won’t do anything about it.

    Is there a way to work with this type of personality? Is there something that I should be doing differently or some secret that I don’t know about? Is this normal in the workplace?

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Can you stop helping him? I mean, is helping him mandated by your bosses, or are you doing it to be nice? Because if it’s the latter . . . you don’t need to be that nice. You can be too busy to help. You’re not going to get the same in return from him because he’s a jerk, so unless you’ve been told to do this by your manager, don’t do his work for him. That won’t change his behavior but at least you won’t be wasting as much time on him, either.

    2. Threeve*

      No, that’s not normal. God, what an ass. How old is he?

      Can you try directly calling him on it, and laying on a little guilt? Next time y0u suspect he’s lying to you, straight up ask: “Are you actually being helpful? Or are you being ‘hilarious’ at my expense? Because…I’m having a really hard week.”

      You have my sympathy. Working with jerks sucks, but jerks who are friends with the boss are a special kind of misery.

      1. WellRed*

        I agree with asking him directly to stop, but I don’t think I’d say it’s because I’m having a hard week. Tell him, you don’t think it’s funny or ask him to “explain the joke.”

        1. Leisel*

          Exactly. Don’t put it in a way that seems like you need sympathy or empathy from him. He’s being an jerk at your expense, so you don’t owe him any fuel.

          Be blunt! “In the past you’ve sent me on wild errands or in the wrong direction. You seem to think that’s funny, but I don’t share that sense of humor. From now on, unless your manager agrees that you need help and I’m the best one to help you, I’m going to stay out of it.”

          You owe it to yourself to stand up for you. Good luck!

        3. HerGirlFriday*

          “…..Because I don’t think it’s very funny.”
          It’s not funny. Call it what it is.

      2. londonedit*

        Yeah, I’d say something in the moment like ‘Listen, I enjoy a joke as much as the next person, but that’s really not helpful if you actually want me to finish off the teapot reports like you asked me to. Can you give me the actual information?’

        And I’d definitely try to stop helping him if it’s not actually part of your job.

        1. Buttons*

          ^^ this
          That guy is an ass. I have no tolerance for people who behave like that. I usually make a face and say “that isn’t funny. Can you just give me what I need?”

          You could also say “because of the joking around and not giving me what I asked for, I am going to need an extra day to finish this.”

    3. Aquawoman*

      I think it is human nature to normalize this kid of stuff, but when you said he’d give you the wrong info or send you to the wrong person, my jaw literally dropped. I’m stunned. And I’m someone who will joke around at work. Interfering with your work is not a joke, it’s sabotage.

      1. Jennifer Juniper*

        I’m guessing Wakeem may be a white man and Animal House may a woman and/or POC. That sounds like deliberate sabotage to get Animal House in trouble.

    4. JustMyImagination*

      Can you passively make his jokes public by treating them like they are serious? For example, if he sends you to Susie for ABC and that’s wrong follow up with an email to Wakeen and CC boss saying “hey wakeen, I went to Susie for ABC like you suggested and she actually only covers XYZ. Joe is in charge of ABC and you should contact him if you need that information.”

      4. Observer*

        Yep. CC both your boss and his.

        His boss won’t do anything but you want to deny him plausible deniability. And your boss needs to know about this stuff. Because I don’t think he’s going to care about Wakeen being a jerk, but he MIGHT care about the fact that it’s keeping you from getting your job done. Also, see “plausible deniability”.

      5. Dust Bunny*

        Plus, this is mildly disruptive for him so it means that every time he does it to you, you bog him down just a little bit in unnecessary email.

      6. Librarian of SHIELD*

        And I’d also make sure I prefaced requests to other people with “Wakeen told me you were the person who can help me with this.” Make sure EVERY member of staff is aware than when you go to them with a question that’s not in their wheelhouse, it’s Wakeen’s fault. With any luck, you could end up weaponizing peer pressure in your favor by getting your coworkers to push back against Wakeen’s “jokes.”

      7. Seeking Second Childhood*

        And every time you go to someone, the FIRST words out of your mouth should be “Hi, Susan, Wakeen sent me to you for X. Did he get that right?”
        That way, people annoyed by an unnecessary interruption will know who triggered it.

        1. Jedi Squirrel*

          ^^Exactly. Because it’s entirely possible that Animal House isn’t the only person he’s doing that to.

      8. Parenthetically*

        This is exactly what I was thinking. Make a paper trail, and let his bosses know he’s deliberately giving you wrong information. What’s he going to do, reply-all and say, “It was just a joke for me to send you to Susie instead of Joe, lighten up” to his bosses?

    5. Dr. Glowcat Twinklepuff*

      Wow, giving you wrong information “just for fun” is a very big deal! It could create serious problems if you act on it! I would try to have everything in writing, so that if something goes wrong you can prove it was because of the wrong information he gave you.
      And, let’s say it clear: it’s not your fault, you’re not responsible for him and in a sane workplace this “personality type” would not be tolerated. But since your workplace doesn’t seem excessively sane, the best way to “work with this kind on personality” is probably just covering yourself.

      1. Animal House*

        I don’t know if he wanted someone else to get my position or if he hates me, but tough cookies- we have to work together.
        He likes to pit people against each other, so it isn’t personal. (Even though it feels like it.) I just don’t understand this type of behavior at work.

        1. Dr. Glowcat Twinklepuff*

          Your workplace sounds pretty toxic and I’m sorry you have to deal with this.
          I totally see why you don’t understand his behaviour, it’s not how adults are supposed to do! My point was that, unfortunately, I’m not sure you can fix him: he’s doing everything on purpose. I would focus on protecting yourself, especially if it’s really true that he doesn’t want you in your position. Take care!

          1. Animal House*

            I just envy people who seem to be able to work with anyone or those who are not affected by stuff like this.

            1. WellRed*

              Please understand, most of us don’t work in places where stuff like this happens. It’s just bizarre. Are you the same person who posted last week about being sent to the third floor (when there isn’t one)? If not, you’ve got company.

      2. Senor Montoya*

        Right. Send Wakeen an email: Hey, Wakeen, thanks so much for your help with Llama Teapot report! Here’s what we covered — could you check it over to make sure I haven’t left anything out?
        Appreciate it!
        OP

    6. CL Cox*

      Submit every request for information in writing, via email. Ask him to email you the answer, “since there seems to be some miscommunication lately.” If he continues to send you misinformation through email, call him on it. “I asked you for the December EOM figures, what you sent me was for September. Please send the correct information ASAP so I can finish my report.” Don’t ask why, simply point out his error. If he continues to give you wrong information, you can escalate to your boss and have a paper trail to show them.

      If he tries to answer you verbally rather than by return email, write it down and verify WITH HIM that you wrote what he said, then send an email when it’s incorrect, “I asked you who was the contact for gold teapot numbers and you said Jane. She says she’s not the correct person, James is. Please verify that it’s James I need to talk to.” When he comes back and denies that he told you Jane, you can point out that he verified it was Jane when you wrote it down.

      He’s either going to realize that he can’t sabotage you any more and stop with the deliberate misinformation, or you will have to escalate and will have a good amount of proof that will overcome any ass-kissing goodwill he’s obtained.

      1. Alexander Graham Yell*

        I kind of love this, if only for the paper trail of mistakes – he says they’re jokes, but written down factually it just looks like he has NO clue what he’s doing.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      And he’s friends with the boss *hard sigh*

      I would just never trust the guy and not ask him for help. Or preface everything with “Wakeen told me to come to talk to you about X” and then they can go “Uh no, it’s actually Nancy who does that.” or whatever. Just don’t expect him to change and write him off as someone who refuses to evolve.

    8. MonteCristo85*

      Ugh, being messed with. I hate it. I usually behave like it is dead serious, and respond in kind. Make it NOT FUN to mess with you, because you take everything deadly serious. If he sends you to the wrong person, go back to him and tell him its the wrong person, and you wanted to let him know so he didn’t ask them next time he needs information. Go back to him when you find out the information is wrong. Loop in bosses if you have too. It’s not funny, it’s not cute, and you don’t have the play the game. IMO, if you have made it perfectly clear you don’t like the messing with (and to be fair, some people actually like this kind of interaction) and if he continues to do it, he’s bullying, and it needs to stop.

      It’s normal in my work place (the messing, not providing wrong information, that seems like a real work issue that bosses need to deal with) but that doesn’t mean you have to participate.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Not professional for sure, but as far as normal, it’s not unusual to find workplace jerks of all stripes.

      Do you have an immediate boss or do you both answer to the same boss? If your direct boss is different then loop your own boss in regarding how many times you have to ask for information before you get the correct info. Be sure to tell your boss how much extra time you are spending doing this nonsense.

      Perhaps you work in a smaller place so you and Wakeen answer to the same boss.
      You could try, “Wakeen, I am going to start looping the boss in on our emails because often times I am getting answers that I cannot use, such as the wrong information or the wrong person. I am looping in Boss to see what can be done here to improve this situation so we can work efficiently. ”

      Going in a different direction you could just say to him, “Wakeen, this is the third time this week I have asked you a question and the answer you gave was not useful. Now, what is the correct answer for my current question?”
      Here the idea is to show that you are counting the number of times this is happening. Sometimes when I start counting people get nervous and stop their crap.

      BTW, I hope you are developing workarounds so that you can ask this guy less and less questions. For example, once you find out Sally handles all X’s, you could just go to Sally and skip Wakeen.

      Or, if it’s in keeping with your personality, you could just decide that his first answer is not the truth and you will not believe him. And you can state it out loud, “Wakeen, we all know that your first answer is a joke. So let’s hear your second answer to this question.”

      Last. You could try, “Wakeen, you are the only one here that I have to ask my questions a second time. Everyone else gives a straight answer on the first request. You are the only person here that does this.”
      Here the idea is to drag a behavior out into the light of day and LOOK at the behavior. Some people just stop the behavior once it’s identified like this. Remember he KNOWS this is wrong or else he would do it in front of the boss also. It’s pretty safe to assume the boss has no idea that he is doing this.

      I assume you are a woman because this sounds like stuff I went through with some men. If this is the case, you could ask him if he ever sends the men on wild goose chases for laughs. When he says no, ask him why.

      1. Llellayena*

        Oh this is a good angle. Who else does he do this joking with? Does the joking that involves misinformation and misdirection only get aimed at you or is it directed at the women in the office or another protected class? If so, you can bring it to HR as discrimination and get it dealt with without going to the manager-friend. Documentation is key for that though, so track the “jokes” with email and notes first.

    10. Spero*

      Can you ask him to send you an email with the information so that if it’s incorrect, you have a paper trail to reply “I asked Linda about this and she stated she is not the correct person and has never been. Is there a reason you sent me to her?” and he can’t deny he gave you wrong info? If he says ‘Oh I’ll just tell you don’t bother with email” you can say that in the past, information has sometimes been missed and you’d prefer to have things in writing from him for now on. He’s given you incorrect info verbally. Being requested to share it in another format is a natural consequence to his action. Being confronted over incorrect info is a natural consequence of giving it it. None of this is you being unreasonable. Right now he’s insulated from the natural consequences by his friendships and your helpfulness. You have no need to continue insulating him.
      He should be well aware of what he’s done and if having to give it in writing doesn’t make him straighten up then you forwarding his time-wasting ‘jokes’ on should.

    11. Hedgehug*

      You know the context better than me since you’re the one there, but he sounds like a bully who is trying to assert authority over you with his “jokes”. Especially since you also stated in the comments that he enjoy pitting people against each other??
      Have you ever pushed back and said “Why would you find that funny?” or, “you sending me to the wrong people makes me think you’re an idiot, are you sure you know what people do here?” (obviously you can’t say that, but…yeah). What do your other co-workers think of his behaviour? Is this one of those situations where you can all push as a group?
      And is he actually friends with the boss, or does HE think he’s friends with the boss?

    12. George*

      My oi agree about making it no fun. If something comes up in person, I’d go back to my desk and email right away, “Just confirming, you said the report is due on the 6th, right?” Or, “Did you say Beth was the person who can help with this?”. I would try to sound like I was confirming because I was unclear without actually saying that.

      I agree with comments about prefacing that Wakeen sent you, and about looping back with email every time he gets it wrong.

      I would keep a file on every incident for a month and then take it to my supervisor saying, “I thought I was imagining howuch this was impacting me, but it turns out it was a lot more than o thought.”. A few incidents would be easy to overlook, but not a stack of them.

    13. hamsterpants*

      I dealt with a co-worker like by dispensing with all niceties.
      With a normal colleague, you’d joke, be accommodating if something slips if it’s a one-off, let people handle issues offline rather than involving their boss.
      With someone like this, be 100% business all the time. Be a broken record about what you need. Give him a hard (but realistic) deadline, and when he misses it, don’t immediately “tattle” to your boss but also don’t cover for him — in other words, let your work that depends on him simply halt. Be very boring and to-the-point with your boss, when he asks, about why the work isn’t being done.

  3. Stephen!*

    I need some outside perspective on an interaction I had with my coworker yesterday.

    We had worked together that morning and were headed back to the office. I was driving my work truck and we went over some bumpy road and the truck made some squeaky noises. Coworker said “Is that what your bed sounds like?” I completely froze, but part of my mind was thinking, “Okay, eewwww, but we’re almost back to the office, maybe he doesn’t realize that sounded gross, just let it go.” And into the silence he says, “You know, bedsprings? Squeaky bedsprings?”

    In case you couldn’t guess, why yes, I am a woman.

    And after we got the office, where I let him out with the bare minimum of required conversation, I realized that the previous time we worked together, he drew my attention to the decor in a restaurant we were in (a giant plaster animal head, painted in bright colors) and said something to the effect of “I bet you have something like that hanging over your bed.” I said no, and then he asked what I did have over my bed.

    This is creepy, right? It’s not overtly sexual, but… yuck?

    I have to work with him again next week. I’m going to practice the phrase, “that is inappropriate” with the hopes that I don’t freeze again if (when) he says something gross, but should I mention this to my supervisor?

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      You’re right, super creepy. I would have frozen as well though simply because I wouldn’t have been expecting it. I fully support you saying firmly “that isn’t appropriate”, and please make sure you’re not in a car with him alone again if at all possible.

      1. Annony*

        You can even expand it “I’ve noticed you ask me about my bedroom a lot. Please stop. It is not appropriate.”

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        It *is* overtly sexual. Squeaky bedsprings is *totally* a reference to sex. He sexually harassed you. The comment in the restaurant was testing the boundary, the comment in the truck was harassment. Being in the truck makes it really creepy and dangerous – no witnesses.

        Tell his supervisor in writing (email), but keep practicing that phrase.

        You might even ask to meet with him in the office to say, “The comments you made last week about my bed are completely inappropriate. You need to stop making sexual comments to or about me.” Make sure it’s in the office, where there’s witnesses nearby. *Sometimes* harassers will stop when they realize they’ve been pegged. But this needs to be in addition to telling his supervisor, not instead of.

    2. cactus lady*

      Yes that’s creepy. If I were you, I would loop in my supervisor since it sounds like you and he go offsite together.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        THIS. No way in the world would I be going anywhere else alone with that man. Ew.

        The bed springs comment on its own could have been interpreted to mean he was asking because he thinks you’re heavy – but that would also be way over the line to insinuate to anyone. Adding in his comment asking you what you have over your bed? Yeah, he’s officially veered over into harassment territory.

        1. Just Another Manic Millie*

          Except that I don’t think he would have asked a heavy man if his bed springs were squeaky.

        2. Fuzzy Pickles*

          Could’ve been truck bed squeaking but that interpretation was lost when he said bedsprings and the other comment. Creepy jerk.

          1. Jihbeach*

            The first comment could have been interpreted as a bad attempt at a joke. But, he not only doubled down, but tripled down with his additional comments. He was making it very clear that he was talking about her having sex. Combined with his previous comments, he’s sexually harassing her.

            The first inappropriate comment was bad but I’m sure it caught her off guard. I would probably laugh nervously and say I had nothing over my bed instead of telling him it was none of his business.

            Her first response told him he could make her feel uncomfortable safely. It’s no coincidence that he waited until they were completely alone and she was vulnerable, to make his comments. He knew she wouldn’t say anything out of fear, so he wins by controlling her.

            She should start a log of every comment and go directly to her boss and HR. she’s should never have to travel with her again and he needs to keep his distance and communicate exclusively by email unless absolutely necessary. Then, always have someone with her if she needs to see him in person.

            If it continues without any consequences, she should contact a lawyer.

        3. Jules the 3rd*

          No, squeaky bedsprings is a sexual reference. See: “Marvin Gay and Chardonnay” by Big Sean and “Bad” by Wale.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            I don’t listen to that music, so I won’t be seeing that, and my comment was how I interpreted what was written when I first read the bedsprings section – I thought it was a fat joke until I got to the second part of the question where he asked what was over her bed. Regardless, I already said this is sexual harassment, no two ways about it, and she needs to let their manager know she won’t be traveling anywhere with this guy by herself going forward. This could turn dangerous quick.

      2. Librarian of SHIELD*

        Definitely. It’s absolutely worth telling your supervisor what he’s already said and what you plan to respond with if he brings the topic up again. I’d also say “If he responds badly or keeps making comments after I tell him I want him to stop, I’ll need to file an official report.”

    3. nep*

      Over the top creepy. Awful. He needs to stop.
      Good on you for getting comfortable with stating firmly that this is wholly inappropriate. Wish you didn’t have to be in that position at all.
      I definitely would mention to your supervisor. Or his? Someone. Perhaps ask your supervisor for guidance.

    4. DataGirl*

      Super, super creepy. He’s definitely being inappropriate. Do you work with many other women? Could you discreetly ask if he subjects others to similar comments? I think I might mention it to my supervisor, because of the travel you have to do.

      1. Observer*

        If others have had the same thing, there is power in numbers. But even if no one else has experienced that, please DO report this. It’s creepy and definitely getting into harassment territory. Two incidents are not “win a lawsuit” territory, but if you have to deal with this guy and he does this every time you have to interact with him without witnesses, that’s a huge deal.

    5. LessNosy*

      I REALLY like when Alison suggests questioning people as to why they’re asking inappropriate questions. “What a weird question! Why do you ask?” or “That’s an odd thing to say, why do you want to know?” Put the impetus on him to explain his creepy behavior… maybe it will make him see that it’s Not Okay. Of course, saying “that is inappropriate” is good as well!

      The one time I have had to deal with a creep at work, it was a client, and my supervisor was really helpful. He actually had me swap clients with another account manager and instructed the client that he was never to contact me again. Personally, if your supervisor is a helpful person, I would say, “If this happens again, I have plans on how to handle it in the moment and push back, but I just wanted to flag this for you in case it becomes a larger issue.”

      1. Threeve*

        I think making him acknowledge what he’s doing is a good idea. It makes it obvious that you find what he’s doing inappropriate, and you have something to go to the boss with no matter what.

        “Are you…talking about a coworker’s bed?”

        Because even if his defense is that he’s just genuinely interested (nothing sexual, OMG why would you think that) or that’s he’s Just Joking…you have something concrete to tell your boss.

        “Coworker has asked me a few times about the contents of my bedroom, and told me that it’s sincere interest, but it’s obviously making me uncomfortable” or “Coworker has been making comments about my bed, and has told me that he’s ‘joking,’ but obviously that is really inappropriate.”

      3. Parenthetically*

        Yeah, my first thought was to pull a grossed-out face and say, “What the hell, man, why are you asking my all these weird questions about my bed? Pretty sure you wouldn’t ask *insert name of largest/oldest male colleague* if his bedsprings squeaked or if he had a plant hanging over his bed. Knock it off, you’re being SUPER weird.”

      4. Jules the 3rd*

        For once, I don’t think this is the right approach. Stephen! was alone in the truck with Coworker; asking “Why would you say that” has at least a 50% chance of leading to a direct request for a sexual relationship. Getting to a safe place was the right response.

        Safe to use in the restaurant, but risky in the truck.

        1. Hummus*

          I agree, from a comfort perspective. I wouldn’t want to say that while in the truck, but mostly because I would be afraid that it would turn physical.

          But if Stephen! felt up to it and felt safe that no physical altercation would occur or safe that she could take him in a fight, it’s a fair avenue to take.

          I also think this should be brought to a supervisor or HR no matter what. This guy is creepy. He knows he’s creepy, and he thinks he’s being clever enough to skirt the line. But this isn’t the 80s, so I think he’s already crossed the line where any decent HR person wouldn’t respond with, “Well, did you tell him you didn’t like him mentioning your bed so much? Maybe he doesn’t know.” If he doesn’t know, your workplace isn’t doing their job.

          1. Marie*

            Yes. The question back. I make my voice really loud. “Did you just say__(repeat their words back)?” …. “Did you just ask me ____(repeat their words back)?”
            I advise this strategy for public places such as the restaurant. It is not safe to say in an enclosed vehicle or in a secluded place. In the instance of the truck it is still not too late: in the public space of the office you can still say out loud “When we were driving did you really say that you bet the squeaky sounds of my truck sounded like my bed?!” in a questioning neutrally incredulous voice.

    6. Jedi Squirrel*

      It’s creepy AND it’s overtly sexual. Unless you were talking about buying a new mattress, why on earth would somebody make comments about your bed?

      Loop your supervisor into this. ASAP. Every time this guy says something like this and gets away with it, he thinks he has more and more leeway to be even more creepy.

      1. Sue*

        Yes, I agree. Unless you were discussing home decor, there is no way this isn’t sexual. He may think it’s some kind of harmless flirty banter, but it’s really inappropriate in any work setting. In a vehicle with only the two of you, it’s ramped up NOT OK.

        1. MoopySwarpet*

          This. It may not be overtly malicious, but it is sexual and there is no way he doesn’t know that. He might think it’s banter or it might be predatory. Two comments don’t make me automatically think it’s predatory, but it seems potentially “groomy” to me.

      2. MistOrMister*

        I agree with all of this. My first thought to the “it’s not overtly sexual” was, say what, it’s not??? Because it definitely is! There is no way anyone could take either of his comments than that they were sexual inuendo. If it wasn’t sexual he wouldn”t have mentioned the bed in regards to the animal heads. That’s just weird!! If he said something about animal heads and your family/living room, trophy room, whatever, it might just be weird/creepy depending in how he says it. But the bedroom?? Definitely sexual. And the mattress thing…wow.

    7. Celeste*

      Definitely tell him it’s inappropriate, and document what is happening. This latest event made you remember something else, so write that down to the best of your ability for date, time, location, etc.

      You do have to give him a chance to adjust his behavior, but in case he keeps going, you will want to have documentation of him behaving like this. He’s creating a hostile workplace for you.

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        I agree that the documentation is extremely important. I do, however, disagree, that she owes him the opportunity to adjust his behavior. The company may be under obligation to do so, but she is under no such obligation to my mind. Her obligation is to herself and her own health and safety. OP, I don’t think you have to take it upon yourself to think about if you’ve given him enough “chances” or not. You just keep raising the alarm to the extent that it is safe for you. Let HR worry about his chances.

      2. Secret Identity*

        I dunno…I mean, do you really have to give him a chance to adjust his behavior? Because, to me, any grown ass, normal person should understand that that type of questioning is inappropriate.
        Way back in the day I worked in a warehouse for a company that manufactured and sold underwear. So my job was to pick the orders and pack the boxes of underwear for shipping. In my first week, there was a guy in the same row as me, also picking orders. I had just picked up a package containing some thongs and this guy sidles up to me and asks in what I assume he thought was a low, sexy voice, if that was the type of underwear I wore. I was so young and naive and, in the moment, I froze and didn’t know what to say, so I kind of laughed nervously and said no, then went back to my order picking. Looking back, I would say he didn’t deserve a chance to adjust his behavior – I should have stopped what I was doing right then and went straight to HR, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. That was so inappropriate he absolutely knew it was wrong.
        So, I don’t think this guy necessarily needs an opportunity to adjust his behavior. Just my 2 cents worth.

        1. Hummus*

          Yeah, it’s up to HR to give him the headsup that he can’t continue that behavior. If they talk to him and he stops, they won’t then fire him. But if they may have information that this dude has done this to every woman in the office, they’ve talked to him already, and now they need to take the next step.

        2. Kat in VA*

          No. It’s not on her to teach him how not to be a creep and how not to sexually harass.

          I promise you, he knows what he’s doing. The plant comment was weird enough, and when the reaction wasn’t an immediate WTF YOU ASKING ME ABOUT THAT FOR, he then doubled down the squeaky bed comment.

          This is putting the onus on the victim to correct the behavior of the offender and that’s why crap like this slides.

      4. roll-bringer*

        he doesn’t need a chance to adjust his behavior. a decent & reasonable person wouldn’t be making these comments and I hope he gets fired with negative references.

        1. Jedi Squirrel*

          Exactly this. Sexual harassment is zero-tolerance in a lot of places. You just don’t want those kinds of people around.

      5. Not So NewReader*

        Respectfully and firmly disagreeing.

        Go report this to your boss now, OP. This is bull. And request that you not have to be alone with him for any task. I don’t think he is going to hurt you, I think that you should request not to be alone with him so that he sees what he did was totally, totally UNACCEPTABLE. There is no how, no way, this is acceptable workplace behavior.

      6. Sunflower Sea Star*

        Joining in on the chorus of no, she does not “have to give him a chance to adjust his behavior”
        He’s being creepy and sexual with a coworker. She needs to keep herself safe. Predators – or even potential predators – do not get or deserve second chances.
        Giving creeps a chance just gives them an opening to escalate.
        Please stop telling women they have to be nice to creeps.

      7. WantonSeedStitch*

        Disagree. The COMPANY may decide it wants to give him a chance to adjust his behavior (or not), but Stephen! is under no obligation to try to resolve this with him one-on-one before appealing to a manager or HR for help if she does not feel safe or comfortable doing so.

      8. Fikly*

        No. This dude gets to face consequences for his behavior.

        Once he faces those consequences, he can have his chance to adjust he behavior, but he does not get to escape the consequences.

    8. Golden*

      Definitely creepy and not appropriate. I kind of like Captain Awkward’s “return awkwardness to sender” approach. Maybe next time coworker says something like that, you could reply with “what do you mean by that?” … “I don’t understand, what does that mean?”, “What are you referring to?” etc. until he either has to succumb to his own awkwardness and quit, or say what he really means out loud, at which case you will have a pretty good case to take to your supervisor/HR.

      Like others have commented, I would also let your supervisor know what’s been happening.

    9. HONK*

      Oh wow that is creepy. Even more so because he had to specify about the bedsprings when he realized that you were staring in dumbstruck silence instead of laughing. Like… that’s a dude who thinks their jokes are so hilarious that if someone doesn’t laugh, it has to be because they didn’t understand it.

      I personally love the “What a weird thing to say!” responses, but a good ol’ “That’s inappropriate” would definetely be warranted.

        3. Jules the 3rd*

          omg this took me a second, and I have a cutout Goose on the Loose in my house (we don’t do Elf on the Shelf). ROFLMAO.

    10. Camellia*

      “This is creepy, right? It’s not overtly sexual, but… yuck?”

      Creepy, right. But you are wrong on the second – it IS overtly sexual.

      First I would use the “What a weird question. Why would you ask me that?” Note that’s ‘…ask me that’ instead of just ‘…ask that.’ It points out how really personal the question is.

      After a round or two of that, if he still doesn’t get it or, more probably, will start insisting it’s a joke, that is the place for “That is inappropriate.” Sometimes I have even added “Don’t do that again.”

      And above all, do NOT soften your language with ‘please’ or ‘sorry’ or anything else like that.

      You got this. Practice like you are doing and then handle it.

    11. KR*

      You could also try, “That’s a really gross comment. Don’t talk to me like that again.”
      “You know that’s the third time you’ve mentioned my bed and it’s coming across really creepy. I know you wouldn’t want to make me feel uncomfortable at work so you need to cut it out.”
      I think you should tell your supervisor if you trust them to handle it well. Something like “Fergus has made these two comments to me (describe comments and situation). Next time he says something inappropriate I’m planning on saying X, but I wanted to make you aware that its a problem I’ve been dealing with and it’s making me feel really uncomfortable.”
      So sorry. This is sexual harassment. What a gross guy.

    12. Artemesia*

      Twice? Yeah. I’d tell your manager you would prefer not to go out on calls with Creepster because he constantly makes reference to your bedroom, squeaky bed springs and other sexually inappropriate comments. You are feeling sexually harassed by him. (and you are) Once is bad taste, twice is intentional.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. This.
        Neither remark is accidental.

        It happens sometimes that people accidentally say things with a double meaning, typically their faces turn red and/or they start stuttering, you will see some type of thing that indicates embarrassment and regret.
        No. This guy meant what he said.

        I worked with a male boss that had wording down to a science, I never once saw him say anything that was the LEAST bit ambiguous. This guy thought about every sentence he said before he said it. His effort in the regard showed and I told him I noticed and appreciated.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Oh yeah, this was not accidental. The comment in the restaurant was the first test, to see how Stephen! would react. The comment in the truck was escalation. This is a common pattern with harassers, he’s textbook.

          1. RVA Cat*

            Plus he used the awkward silence to *double down*.
            Never be alone with this guy again. The way he’s escalating, next step will be physical contact.

        2. Kat in VA*

          For people who are conscious of double entendres, the reaction is exactly as you described.

          I was covering the head execs for the other EA one day, and the GM said, “Hey, I’m going to head home for a few and let the dogs out.” (He lives local to the office.)

          Me: OK.

          I hear him walk away, the security door open and close…and then a few seconds later, the security door opened, and he popped around the corner.

          Him: I mean, I REALLY AM going home to let the dogs out, I didn’t mean like I was-, I mean-, I didn’t mean anything other than-, OK, I’m going to go now.

          Me /mystified/: OK?

          After I heard the door close again, I started laughing. THAT is what people do when they think they’ve said something that could be construed as “naughty” or inappropriate. Not make another, more pointed comment in the same vein.

          1. Kat in VA*

            The funny thing is, the ONLY thing I could think of was that song, “Who Let The Dogs Out?”

            I have no idea what he thought I was thinking.

    13. CupcakeCounter*

      Another optional replies:
      that is something that you will never know
      I’m not sure how that it any of your business
      or you can go nuclear and respond with
      Would you like to continue this conversation with boss and HR? Because if it isn’t something you feel comfortable asking about in front of them, its a sign you should keep the thought to yourself.

      I would also let your boss know that, if possible, you would like to not be put on assignment with this guy. If they ask why, you can just say he has asked some personal questions that make you very uncomfortable. Or flat out say that he’s asked inappropriate questions that seem to focus on your bedroom.

    14. Red5*

      Yup. Creepy and inappropriate, but not outright sexual so he can maintain plausible deniability. Rather than responding with “That’s inappropriate” (because he can argue that he didn’t mean it that way and it’s YOUR mind in the gutter), I’d suggest responding with a very bland, “Why do you ask?” Or, for things that are statements instead of questions, “Why do you say that?”

      “Is that what your bed sounds like?”
      “Why do you ask?”

      “What do you have hanging over your bed?”
      “Why do you ask?”

      “I bet you have something like that hanging over your bed.”
      “Why do you say that?”

      That way he either has to get more explicit, where you can then call him out for being inappropriate, or he can drop it. Either way, you win.

      1. Observer*

        He can argue anything he likes. But if he claims that it was not inappropriate because he “didn’t mean it THAT way” the response is “That doesn’t make it OK. This is inappropriate.”

        1. Forrest Rhodes*

          I like this response. Or maybe, “In what flamin” universe [or term of your choice] do you think I’d answer a question like that?” Could also end with “from you,” just to make it clear.
          I guess that’s a bit more polite than “What—have you lost your tiny mind, asking me something like that and actually thinking I’d ANSWER it??”

      3. kt*

        Nah. No “Why do you ask?” Because some of these guys will dig in. Just respond with, “Whoah, you are one creepy fuck.” Name it. Call it out.

      4. Doc in a Box*

        This is a good strategy, but it only works if there are other people around who have social or professional power over the creep. I would absolutely not use it solo, because there is a possibility that the creep would use that as an excuse to get even more sexual (and then use the fact that you “asked for it” as a twisted defense.)

    15. NJBi*

      Definitely creepy, definitely inappropriate, definitely sexual. This is not a normal thing that you just have to put up with! I would mention it to a supervisor. “The last two times I worked with Coworker offsite, he made sexually suggestive comments that made me very uncomfortable. The first time I wasn’t sure if it was just a fluke, but now that it’s happened twice, it’s becoming a pattern, and I wanted to let you know.” That way if it happens again next week, the supervisor is already aware of the issue–or maybe the supervisor will be able to have Coworker knock it off before that.

      Also, I wouldn’t say you need to correct his comments with a “That’s inappropriate,” etc. if you feel uncomfortable doing so! He knows it’s inappropriate, and it’s not your responsibility to tell him. Maybe it would make the comments stop, maybe it would start an argument (“I’m just joking around! Jeez, can’t you take a joke?”)–you know the situation better than me to predict how he might react, but in a burgeoning sexual harassment situation, I don’t think it’s your responsibility to give him a mini-HR training, and you definitely aren’t responsible for telling him to knock it off before going to your supervisor and asking that person for an intervention/backup.

    16. MonteCristo85*

      This goes beyond mere creepy in my opinion. This isn’t just vague sexual nature comments, these are direct at you specifically. I’d make one attempt to directly tell him to knock it off, and then report it. This is NOT COOL, and made worse by the fact you have to be alone with him offsite.

    17. Buttons*

      Trust your instincts. We are so conditioned to “be nice” that we often don’t trust our own instincts. This guy is a creep.

    18. Not So NewReader*

      OP, my vote is to shut this conversation down FAST. Report it to the boss, pronto. I base what I am saying on years of experience, do not put up with this crap. You don’t deserve this.

    19. Jean*

      Sounds like you have a habitual line-stepper on your hands here. If you have to go somewhere again where it will just be you and him, let your manager know about your concerns ahead of time, so it starts a “paper trail” so to speak. That way, when you tell him to stop, if he doesn’t, you have backup so formal disciplinary action can be taken. I bet this guy has been “just joking around” like this to women for a very long time and thinking he’s slick. Best of luck and I hope this gets solved asap.

    20. Senor Montoya*

      It is overtly sexual. It is creepy. It is COMPLETELY inappropriate. Right now, write down exactly what happened, when, where, the exact words as well as you can remember them, for the incidents that have already happened.

      Yes, you need to talk about it with your supervisor. Ask for a meeting. Bring a copy of the record you’ve made (not the original! Keep that at home!) Say to the supervisor, at the time, I was so shocked I didn’t know what to say. If it happens again, I will say, “Joe, that is inappropriate and potentially harassment. I need you to not say anything like that ever again.”

      If it happens again, say your script, make a record, go to your supervisor. Lather, rinse, repeat. If boss does not follow up and/or Joe continues, go to HR and/or your EEO officer, whoever is the correct person at your employer. Or both.

    21. Nesprin*

      You did the right thing, which was get out of a situation that was making you uncomfortable. Freezing when (in a car!) someone acts creepy is an easy thing to pick on, but very instinctive and hard to fight. Now that you’re not in that bad situation, go tell your boss about this interaction and figure out how not to be stuck alone with this guy again.

    22. Senor Montoya*

      Just to add — I would not respond to this behavior with jokes. I would not accept anything from Joe except, “Gee, I’m sorry” followed by it never happens again. I would document the hell out of this, and I would escalate to my boss (and beyond, if it doesn’t get solved) every time Joe does this. Every freakin time. Joe needs to stop. Joe needs to feel the consequences of this.

      It’s ok if you didn’t know what to say, and it’s ok to feel icky or worried or embarrassed about escalating it to your supervisor, but from my own experience and that of colleagues: Joe is not going to stop and Joe is possibly going to get worse. It takes real courage to speak up, and I hope you will, so that it will stop. I’m so sorry that you have to speak up, it sucks that the victim has to take that responsibility. Big hugs to you!

    23. PollyQ*

      Note that he’s doing this while you’re away from the office, where there are no handy witnesses and you can’t easily leave him. This is not a coincidence, and it is absolutely sexual harrassment. I vote bringing it to your boss.

    24. Lab Rat*

      Wow, so in the pause when he thought maybe you didn’t get it, he decided to clarify that his comment was intended as sexual harassment. Unbelievable. I would absolutely go to the supervisor and advocate for never having to be alone with this guy again.

    25. Leela*

      These are always the worst because it’s not like “hey I want to have sex with you” which is so overt no one could object to you bringing it up. Good managers will take this seriously though! Some won’t, but I’d definitely start documenting everything like this because when and if you come forward they’ll ask for it, and the more you have the stronger that case would be.

      I see Alison with a lot of advice like “Oh weird, why would you bring up X?” and I think that might be a good way to go here. “Why are you talking about my bed?”
      “It’s just a joke”
      “sorry what’s the joke?”
      Etc.

      1. Senor Montoya*

        No. This is not a case to use that script. Make it clear right from the start that it’s inappropriate and unwelcome (use those very words, they are on point), that it’s potentially harassment, and that it must stop immediately.

        Do not have a conversation about this with Joe. Statements, clear and seriously made.

        Do not engage further if he wants to converse, says it’s a joke, whatever. Only response is to repeat the same thing you said the first time, and then say, I am not discussing this further OR This is not up for further discussion. And then do not respond further.

    26. FormerFirstTimer*

      If you can’t bring yourself to actually say, “that’s inappropriate”, say something like, “It’s weird you keep asking me about my bedroom, is there a reason you’re doing it?”. That way you register the fact that you realize what he’s doing (implying its creepy as well perhaps) and force him to come up with an excuse on the spot, which will be fun to watch.

    27. purrpelle*

      “what do i have over my bed? the mummified corpse of the last man who spoke like that to me. Now, where are those TPS reports?”

    28. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Another suggestion: “Fergus, that’s one of those ‘appearance of impropriety ‘ things. I’m sure you’re trying to a joke, but jokes like get people into trouble.”

    29. Hedgehug*

      “It’s not overtly sexual”?? What? Um…YES IT IS.
      This is blatant sexual harassment and needs to go to HR immediately if you have one. This guy has now more than once harassed you and cornered you to know about your sex life. THIS IS NOT OK. At all. I am sitting at my desk scream squealing over this.

      1. Hedgehug*

        Also please never, ever get into a vehicle alone with him ever again. Ever. He has no boundaries and I can’t even imagine what he will do next that he thinks is acceptable behaviour. I’m so upset for you over this. Super triggered.

    30. Not All*

      If you’re hesitating about whether to document & report this (as others said, it IS sexual harassment & it IS overt)…think about the odds that you are the only woman he’s ever tried/will try this on. Even if you call him out directly on it but don’t report it, the odds are high he’ll try it on a different target. If that target happens to be someone who is in a tenuous enough position to not be able to stand up to him, who knows what he’ll escalate to. Since clearly he travels on work business, does your company want the liability of him sexually harassing clients? Service workers? Any other female he has contact with while representing the company?

      (Not that you have to say anything if you think your company culture means it will come back to bite you…I think every woman at some point has been in a situation where we knew we’d be the one getting punished, not the offender. *waves at previous NPS office*)

    32. Sleve McDichael*

      I haven’t read all the comments but a lot of people are saying to push back and say something along the lines of ‘Why would you say something like that?’ That’s fine in a workplace situation regarding a coworker commenting on your lunch, say, but if you’re being sexually harassed he may take that as “being coy” or alternatively get angry and dangerous. If you feel safer bringing it up to HR first, you should definitely do that. It’s not an overreaction. Also be on the lookout for Occam’s Big Paisley Tie when you bring it up if your HR dept are lazy and prone to looking for excuses to avoid work. Im sorry you’re dealing with this.

    33. RagingADHD*

      I’d be leery of trying to “return awkwardness to sender” with this guy by asking him what he means.

      He sounds like the type who would gladly tell you in detail exactly what he means.

      “Ewwww” is a perfectly appropriate response.

      So is, “Enough with the bedroom jokes, Kevin. I don’t want to hear that kind of crap from you, ever again. It’s gross and totally inappropriate. Knock it off.”

  4. Steve*

    How often do background checks usually take and if one is being conducted, should I expect a job offer? I interviewed with a company last Thursday and HR said they would be reaching out to my references. I took that as a good sign.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      When you say “background check,” you mean checking references and not a criminal background check, right?

      Honestly, it depends on a combination of how efficient HR is and how responsive your references are. Sometimes, HR will leave messages with people, and those references won’t get back to HR for days or even ever. Sometimes HR itself is slow to call references.

      I’ve had some employers finish contacting all my references in one day, though. It all depends.

      1. Steve*

        I am somewhat confused about the process because the application I signed never asked for an SS# to run a credit check but I did check a box saying they had a right to access public records and data bases and that I would be provided a copy should they do that. One of my references is going to be a bit tough to reach as he was at a trade show and headed off to another. Thanks for the reply!

    2. Eba*

      It’s a good sign, but not failsafe. We often check references for the final two or three people we’re considering.

      1. Steve*

        The interview went well but they mentioned they still had people to interview so maybe I got pushed to the back burner.

    3. KR*

      In the US it entirely depends on what states you have lived and worked in. I lived and worked in a state without a centralized background check system so when I had to get an initial background check for my current role it took over a month. When I had to get a second background check at the same company a year later, it took less than 2 weeks. Some states have centralized criminal records and can turn out background checks pretty quickly and some don’t. In my experience companies don’t want to pay for background checks if they aren’t seriously interested in you as a candidate, but your results may vary. Good luck!

      1. Steve*

        I did go through another background check that went fairly quickly as I’ve only lived in two states. The process has me confused as the application didn’t ask for my SS#. It did say they may search public records and data bases. I am starting to think I misunderstood this as I was a shoe in for the job and now it looks like I just made it to the second round.

        1. Steve*

          “I did go through another background check that went fairly quickly as I’ve only lived in two states.”

          I realize I didn’t answer this very clearly. That first sentence was for a previous job, not the one I am applying for now…

    4. Chaordic One*

      When I worked in H.R. the reference check was usually done by the department head that was hiring for the opening. It might take anywhere from 1 day or 2 to 3 to 4 weeks, depending on how easy it was to reach the reference. We did not actually run the criminal background check until after the applicant was offered the job (because the background check was kind of expensive). Usually the new employee wouldn’t start until the background check was completed, but sometimes the person might be on the job for a short while before it was.

      (There were questions on the applications about criminal convictions and I suspect that anyone who answered honestly and who had been convicted of a serious crime was probably weeded out early in the process.)

      We used an online service that checked for court and arrest records in the cities, counties and states (and in some cases the countries) where the job applicants previously lived. In most cases it took 2 to 3 days from the time I entered in the request, but sometimes it took a week or more if the applicant lived in more than 4 or 5 states and even up to 3 to 6 weeks if they lived in other countries (outside of the U.S. or Canada) and in some countries they really didn’t have any kind of centralized service so if there were records they were probably not found.

      Very rarely, like probably less than 1 or 2 percent of the time, something that the applicant didn’t report would pop up. It was usually an arrest for a petty crime along the lines of illegal drug possession, driving while intoxicated, or public drunkenness. There were a couple of male employees who were arrested for getting into brawls and a couple of cases where people had been arrested for shoplifting. Sometimes the people had petitioned courts to have their arrest records expunged, but they still showed up anyway.

      In every case the employee was called in to meet with a senior H.R. person and in most of the instances that I witnessed they were cleared to work. There were a couple of people who were let go because their specific job required them to drive and their drunk driving arrest meant that we couldn’t get them insured to drive company cars.

    5. Someone Stole My Sweetroll*

      I work doing background checks with a third-party company, including reference calls. It really depends on how responsive the reference is, but usually we can get ’em by 3 days. Hold up usually is when the reference has no idea they’ve been listed and to expect a call. They don’t know the number, don’t answer, or think we’re spam/sales and keep hanging up on us :( Voicemail usually takes care of that, but a bunch of the cell phone numbers we’re given will just ring and ring or their vm isn’t set up. Funniest is when they have a spam service that trolls us. I’ve only fallen for it twice >.>

      We don’t deal with the hiring decision, so I can’t help there. Sorry! I have browsed our client surveys, and courts seem to take the longest and get the most complaints for long turnarounds. I only do employments, educations, and reference calls. Soo I don’t feel so bad lol

  5. Unsolicited*

    I’m actively looking for PR/Marketing/Advertising jobs in a tight metro job market. Since becoming unemployed in December (agency had serious money issues), I have ramped up my job hunt strategy and now searching companies’ websites to see if they have either a career page or a contact us page (that includes job seekers) so that I can reach out.

    My first question is: Are there any special tips for creating a compelling cover letter for positions on the website that aren’t advertised on job boards or professional associations or may not be posted (company writes just contact us for job opportunities)?

    My second question is: To keep my resume fresh, should I include some of my ongoing professional development and volunteering on my resume? For example, I am currently studying to earn a Google Analytics Certificate as well as taking Lynda.com and other courses. Should these instead be added to the cover letter or addressed, as appropriate, during a job interview?

    My third question is: When the company’s career page asks for writing samples to be sent along with a cover letter and resume, how many and what variety should be included? Because I often do not have direct experience with the product, I’ve been trying for a variety such as a press release, advertorial and a news style piece. Should I be including more or being more focused?

    Thanks, AAM Community!

    1. Tiny Magnolia*

      I’d just honestly put an end date on your resume that says “December 2019.” That’s it! It’s only January and if anyone asks, be upfront. I think volunteer work with dates “December 2019 — Present” would look like you’re already looking to jump ship. I’d see the dates and company name before I’d catch on to the job title of “Llama Volunteer.”

      If you’re in PR (I am, too) I would send three writing samples from your agency work. I’d be sure to include something for digital as that’s a different writing style, and select different clients you worked with.

      1. Unsolicited*

        Umm. . .I am a bit confused by my reference to the end date of the position.

        I have included the end date as being in December since I updated my resume after Christmas. It was never a question, so I don’t understand what you’re getting at. I apologize if something in my post led you to believe that I still had it listed as present employment. Can you explain?

        Your comment about having volunteering listed as looking as though I’m jumping ship puzzles me. All of the PR/Marketing websites I’ve looked at have some ties to volunteering (cancer, kids, 5K races, hunger prevention, etc.). With this in mind, I would think that having ongoing volunteer engagements that represent my personal brand would be a good idea.

        Could you expound a bit on what you believe happens if a volunteer opportunity coincides with a job ending? Wouldn’t having something to fill your days and help your community be read as a good thing by interviewers, particularly those who tout their staffs’ volunteer activities?

        Lastly, I completely agree with having a variety of writing samples. The note of digital is a very good one that I admittedly overlooked. Thanks for reminding me!

        1. Mimi*

          I think Magnolia meant that someone might initially read the volunteering position as a new job that you had just taken, and think you were already looking for a new role.

          Personally, I don’t see that as as big of a risk, but I do agree that your last position ending in December and it’s only January now isn’t a big enough gap to worry about significantly. If you’re still looking come March, there’s probably more value in adding a volunteer position to your resume to show that you’ve been active in the interim (but even then I’d be thoughtful about what you’re moving to the next page/cutting entirely, and if the volunteer position is strong enough/applicable enough to your field to be worth it).

          1. Unsolicited*

            Ahh, that makes more sense!

            For more context, I have been volunteering with various nonprofits for a decade, so my volunteer listings go back for years.

            Although I haven’t been unemployed long, I want to be able to answer interviewers when they ask how I fill my time. I want to be able to state that I’m active in the community, involved with professional associations, doing professional development, etc.

    2. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      “To keep my resume fresh, should I include some of my ongoing professional development and volunteering on my resume?” Yes! I’m on a break and I have (4) projects on-going and they’re on my LinkedIn as well.

      If you’re not volunteering in your area of practice/profession check out CatchAFire or Taproot – many non-profits are looking for pro bono consultants for short-term projects in your field of knowledge. Easy to apply, find projects and get started. What’s nice is that the projects are also valued ($150/hour) so you can add that as a savings you’re providing to the non-profits.

      1. Unsolicited*

        Taproot is something I’ve seen online but haven’t yet engaged.

        The valuing of the knowledge and skills is a great addition. I will certainly check it out!

        Thanks!

    3. A*

      Hi – I’m in PR so I can speak to that industry. For the cover letters, I would see if any big client wins have been reported in the industry trades which should give you a sense of what they’re busy with as well as ask around. I find the industry to be very small and gossipy so someone will know if XYZ firm has been doing a lot of PE comms, shareholder activism, crisis, corporate, etc.

      For the writing samples – I would do internal, external, and strategy. I would choose a letter from a CEO from client X, press release from client Y, and a media/communications strategy from client Z.

      I would also recommend you talk to one of the many comms recruiters if you’re not already.

      Good luck!

      1. Unsolicited*

        Great idea about the comms recruiters! I have been in touch with a local creative placement agency but haven’t done anything with recruiters directly. Thanks for the suggestion!

        I like the idea of researching big clients to see what the company has been doing. I’ve mostly been skimming the company website, social media and the Google news section. I obviously need to use more specific PR resources for the client info. Much appreciation.

        As you’re in PR, please humor me with an additional question: Do a lot of PR firms use personality tests during their hiring process? Also, in your experience, is it concerning when a position lists skilled writing as a requirement, but none of the interviewers ask to see writing samples? This happened to me last week, and I’m still thrown by it.

        Thanks again for all your helpful suggestions!

        1. A*

          I’ve never been given a personality test as part of the interview process, but I’ve done them at my firm. We all had to do them to help our managers better manage us.

          I actually think it’s more common to not ask for writing samples in PR jobs even though it’s listed as a required skill. I’ve never had to submit one for any job in PR. At my firm and its peers, you are given a writing assignment after the first interview. They’re trying to avoid getting writing samples that have been worked on by a lot of people. Agency work is so collaborative so writing assignments are a better gauge of work than samples.

          1. Unsolicited*

            Wow, I hadn’t really considered that interviewers were looking for writing samples without collaboration.

            In my previous jobs, the completed sample (press release, social media post, etc.) was expected to be shown. The understanding is that editors and TPTB had their respective says, but the candidate edited while remaining true to themselves.

            Do you mind if I ask what you’ve seen as writing assignments?

            Thanks!

            1. A*

              Our writing assignments are strategy-focused so they’re testing your strategic/organizational/writing skills in one test. Our junior level writing assignments are research-based, while the mid- to senior-level ones are crisis/communications strategies for a company in the news. It’s been a while since I’ve done one, but my last one took about half a day but was very straightforward.

              1. Unsolicited*

                Thanks for sharing your experience!

                For the three PR interviews I’ve participated in, only one asked to see a portfolio, while another asked for a one-page summary of why I was qualified for the position and what I could bring to the role (handwritten on own paper in 10 minutes), while the third noted writing wasn’t an important part of the role.

                Would you consider the one-page writing assignment standard for a junior position? For more information, it was for a PR specialist role at a small family owned ad agency.

                Again, I appreciate your help!

                1. A*

                  Those interviews are outside the norm for the niche part of PR I’m in, but I’d be curious to see if others in the industry have different experiences.

                  What types of PR positions are you applying/interviewing for?

                2. Unsolicited*

                  I’m applying for a range of public relations specialist, marketing specialist, media specialist and account coordinator positions I find posted on PRSA, LinkedIn and occasionally on indeed.com and ziprecruiter.com.

                  For the position with the one-page writing sample, the interviewers were focused on personality and asked me only three questions out of four interviews (two phone, two in-person, plus a list of six email questions and the DISC assessment). The process took about two weeks and cost me about seven hours total (application, interview prep, interviews, interview follow-up, planning for in-person interview (research, printing docs, getting ready, driving over, etc.), and following up with two detailed thank-you notes.

                  The other PR positions for which I’ve interviewed followed the standard phone screening and in-person interview format. In fact, I have an in-person interview with a small fitness marketing company Monday morning.

          2. Diahann Carroll*

            Yeah, the writing intensive positions I’ve interviewed for didn’t ask for writing samples because, like you said, they give you their own writing assessment.

    4. You can call me flower, if you want to*

      Are you a member of your local PRSA chapter? Our local chapter has a pretty good job board and lots of learning and networking opportunities. I know I’ve offered the names other PRSA members when I’ve heard about open positions that might be a good fit. That community can be helpful depending on where you live.

      1. Unsolicited*

        Yes, I am an active member of the local PRSA and have used its job boards. That’s actually how I found the position that gave me the one-page writing assignment as well as a DISC personality test.

        Additionally, I am volunteering on two boards (communications and PRism Awards) and taking several live and on-demand webinars, along with completing other online trainings.

        Thanks for the suggestion! PRSA really is worth the investment.

        1. A*

          I can’t reply to your previous post, but since they’re not agency roles I feel like that’s not out of the norm. My only experience is with NYC agency life. Good luck to you!

    5. 867-5309*

      Professional development and volunteering should go in their own section. It’s always good to add these but they don’t wholly replace professional experience.

      Also, the Lydia.com courses in PR and marketing are just not that compelling to list. It’s not a certificate from a reputable university. Do list the Google Analytics Certificate BUT, and this is a significant caveat, people hiring SEO and Paid Search roles will look for a person who has consistently managed Google search programs. The certificate doesn’t mean much in an experienced marketing department because, as an example, last year Google made more than 3,000 changes to search. Only someone with daily experience almost exclusively focused on search will know what those are.

      I’ve offered this before in AAM open thread: I’d be happy to look over your resume and LinkedIn, if you’d like. I’ve worked in marketing for almost 20 years across global agencies, some of the largest companies in the world (think: General Motors) and startups. If that might be helpful, I can share my LinkedIn URL.

      Good luck!

      1. 867-5309*

        One comment about PRSA… How far into your career are you?

        I found the society invaluable for the first decade or so of my career but now it’s lost its relevancy. Most public relations folks aren’t in PRSA so over-reliance on that will limit your opportunities. The senior folks who I “grew up” with in the society, many of them with APRs, have since opted to network with other organizations as they’ve become executives. I spoke at the International Conference in San Diego (2019) and was dismayed at the quality of content. I’m not sure it’s setting young professionals up for success in the working world.

        Example: They just released a 2020 trends and talked about “personalization.” We’ve been talking about personalization, marketing in particular, for half a decade. The society is antiquated and continues to in-fight instead of lead the profession forward.

        **steps down from soapbox.**

        :)

        1. Unsolicited*

          Thanks for your in-depth comment!

          Given that I only have a year of PR agency experience, I find the webinars, Facebook group, and other learning tools from PRSA invaluable. I also want to network with members at different career levels to help determine the best path forward for me.

          With very limited working knowledge, I cannot judge if the PRSA content is outdated. I don’t know if you find the American Marketing Association more useful.

          Last thing, I have seen in three separate job postings a prefrence for Google Analytics certificate. These were PR specialist and account coordinator roles at very small agencies. It likely differs at larger employers where specialization is the norm.

          Thanks again!

          1. 867-5309*

            I think that’s the difference between “PR” and “Marketing” as it relates to search. It’s not that the Google certifications don’t have value, just that those alone don’t prepare someone properly for roles dedicated to search. It’s a benefit for PR roles, especially as you note when the agency is on the smaller side.

            I think AMA is okay. You’ll find a significant amount of value in PRSA the first few years out of school. It just loses its value the farther you are in your career. (And, only if you REALLY REALLY want it, the APR is generally meaningless except among PRSA die hards so don’t get sucked into that. It’s even just a small fraction of society membership that bothers. Repeatedly amendments are proposed to do away with it for leadership roles because so few people have it.)

  6. GG*

    I commented on yesterday’s post about references, but I didn’t see it until this morning, and belatedly realized most people have already moved on from that post. So I’ve decided to post again here to hopefully be able to get some dialogue going.

    I’m about to start a new job search, and I’m concerned about references. I can provide two. The first is current boss, who I’m pretty sure will give a great reference. The other is supervisor from 3 jobs ago, who I’m sure won’t have anything bad to say about me, but I’m not sure how much he’ll actually be able to speak to my qualifications as I don’t think he really ever understood what I do (I’m a bookkeeper).

    Putting aside not having the expected/required third reference, I’m worried about what will happen if a hiring manager decides to be proactive and contact my other two former jobs. Well, not so much one of them. I’m sure if anyone was even able to get in touch with that boss he’d give a horrible reference. But given that he’d probably yell at the hiring manager, and even the most cursory google search for the company makes it very clear why I left, I would hope the hiring manager would realize anything he says is completely unreliable.

    It’s the other job that has me worried. That company is still going strong, the boss is easily reachable, and I fear he would have not good things to say about me. I did make some mistakes in that job. But I’m not just rationalizing/self-justifying when I say that the mistakes were brought on by me being horribly overworked. That boss just seemed to expect me to have a time turner, as he kept giving me more to do than I had time for, wouldn’t authorize any overtime, and just expected me to somehow “get it done”. So it’s no wonder that in my rush to get it done, I sometimes got it done wrong.

    Anyway, I can’t figure how/when to work around this. When they ask for my references, should I proactively explain why I’m not giving them for the 2 middle jobs of the 4 on my resume? Should I wait for them to ask? Either way, how do I explain without falling into the trap of “badmouthing” former bosses?

    1. College Career Counselor*

      Can you find someone else besides the boss who worked with you at the 2 middle jobs? They might be able to speak to your skills/work ethic. That won’t stop an employer from proactively reaching out to someone NOT on your reference list, but you can’t help that in any case.

      1. GG*

        The only other employees at the yelling boss company are his children, and they’re just as bad. For time turner boss, I did scour through linked in to see if I could find any of the other employees who I thought might make okay references, and I can’t find any of them. (Doesn’t help that they left before I did, for similar unreasonable boss reasons.)

    2. irene adler*

      Can you ask a friend to do a reference check on you? Have friend pose as a recruiter interested in hiring you and then call the one you are iffy about and have them ask the usual questions. Maybe even call all of your former bosses to get a reading on what they will actually say or do. Better to know than to speculate on what they’d do.

      Just be sure to prep friend with a good understanding of what your skill set is about.

      ” If an opportunity came up would you hire GG again? ”

      (be sure to treat friend to a great meal -or other lovely treat- after they’ve done this for you!)

      1. GG*

        Oh, I like this idea. With any luck (crosses fingers), they’ll do the “we can only confirm dates of employment” thing, and then I can tell hiring managers that I’m aware that’s their policy and thus why I didn’t bother to list a reference.

        Of course, if they do give answers, and they’re bad…. Ugh. While good to know in advance, I’ll still have to figure out how to talk around it.

        1. WellRed*

          If the answers they give are objectively untruthful, it’s probably worth your while to have an attorney send them a cease and desist letter. Also, not all employers to be will check all your references, nor is three a magic number. I’d probably give them the two solid references and briefly explain the situation with the crazy one.

          1. GG*

            I don’t think they’d actually say anything untruthful. (Though of course, if I did discover they were doing so, I would totally pay a lawyer for an hour of their time to nip that in the bud. Thanks for the suggestion.) My fear is more that they’ll describe the mistakes I actually did make due to being overworked. But I’m really liking Oh No She Di’int’s idea of proactively using that as an example of a challenge or learning experience in the interview. And yeah, crossing fingers that they aren’t thorough about digging for more references than I give.

    3. Oh No She Di'int*

      Depending on the industry and the company, it’s not common to research references until a job offer is pretty close, i.e., it’s far along into the process in most cases. (My understanding is that academia is a major exception to this rule.) That means it won’t be incumbent upon you to address the issue at all until you’ve likely had at least a second interview somewhere. That means they’re already inclined to view you favorably.

      If it were me, I’d proactively address the situation in an interview. You’re likely to get some sort of question about previous “challenges” or some such. I would address the objective, observable challenges of the job (overwork, etc.) without laying blame on a person. For example, instead of saying that your boss was an idiot for not authorizing overtime, I would explain that X amount of work was required in X minus Y amount of time. Obviously that is not possible without overtime, which was generally not approved. Then emphasized what you learned from the situation and how you dealt with it.

      If they do find said boss, and if–big if–he blatantly gives a bad reference, they will already have heard your side of the story. That doesn’t mean they will disregard what he has to say, but they will at least have a fuller picture and can make up their own minds.

      I’ve done lots of hiring and have received the occasional lukewarm or bad reference. They go down much easier if they seem to correspond to something the applicant has already told me. Then I’m able to draw my own conclusions. The worst would be if I hear some completely surprising complaint that seems to come out of the blue. That would strike me as the applicant trying to hide something.

      Best of luck to you!

      1. GG*

        My experience so far has been that all the companies I’ve worked for haven’t done second interviews. I think second interviews are more common with larger companies that have a larger applicant pool, and I’ve always worked for small businesses, in small-ish towns. Or, it could just be bad/inexperienced hiring practices as you’d kinda expect at smaller businesses. Still, you have a very good point about them not checking references until they’re pretty sure they’re interested in me. And I love your idea of using this as an opportunity to use this as an answer to the “challenge” question. That even kills two birds with one stone for me because I always have trouble coming up with an answer to that one.

    4. ST*

      Could you provide a second reference from your current job? I’ve never thought it was important to include references from every job, but I could be wrong.

      2. RecoveringSWO*

        Agreed. I’d find it more helpful to hear about a recent project you worked on at your current job with another manager/senior colleague/etc. vs. a reference that’s years old. FWIW, I’m usually ready to hire after chatting with 2 of 3 references (barring any red flags) and I treat the 3rd reference as backup for scheduling issues. So providing 2 references from the same job wouldn’t bother me, but, that’s just me.

        1. GG*

          My work doesn’t ever include projects like what you’re thinking of. But it’s good to know your thoughts on the 2/3 references. Thanks.

    5. CupcakeCounter*

      Hopefully this helps:
      I just started a new job and couldn’t provide any previous managers as my most recent were still with the company and did not know I was looking and my manager at the job prior had retired and dropped off the face of the professional planet.
      I had 2 current coworkers (one a peer and one at a slightly lower level who I helped a lot) and a former coworker who was senior to me that I did some project work for. My new job also let me provide a recent performance review in lieu of a manager reference.
      So dig into your coworkers! Ideally it would be someone you work closely with who has a good idea what you actually do.

    6. T. Boone Pickens*

      From the job where you’re anticipating getting a not so good reference, how long did you work at said company and how long ago was it from present day? Also, was that job responsible for the bulk of your professional work history? If the job was for 1 year, 6 years ago, I wouldn’t worry too much about it. If however, it was say, 2 years ago and you were there for 5 years and it was the majority of your work experience? I’d want to get in front of that.

      Lastly, how similar was your job at potential not so good reference to the one you’re in the process of interviewing for? Do you have another job that could offset the potentially negative reference doing similar work?

      1. GG*

        I’m not interviewing yet, as I won’t be leaving current job for a few more months, and then there will be a move to a different state. But all my jobs are the same/similar and I expect anything I’ll be applying to will be the same – bookkeeping and basic HR (mostly just new hire/termination paperwork) at the small business level. And I like the way you’re thinking of giving the different references a sort of weighted impact. I’ve got good news there.
        Current Boss – 6 years – great reference
        Yelling Boss – 2 years – reference irrelevant due to unreliable source
        Time Turner Boss – 2 years – possibly bad reference
        Bookkeeping Unsavvy Boss – 13 years – okay reference

        And now that I think about it, having the two references I’ll provide being from the two longest term jobs kinda makes sense. So now I’m less nervous about it looking like I deliberately/suspiciously skipped the two middle jobs.

        1. T. Boone Pickens*

          Thanks for clarifying! I’d be much more relaxed about an ok reference in that case due to the 13 years you spent there. If I got a so so reference from an employer on a candidate that was them for 13 years I’d wonder, “Well shoot, you kept them on for 13 years so what does that say about you as a manager/owner?”

          In a similar vein, if the reference told me that you were great for 11 years but fell off in the last 2, I’d ask the reference what happened and see if it matched up with what you told me. As long as it’s relatively close and I can verify the dates, that would satisfy me as a reference-checker.

          Good luck with your job search and move!

    7. AnotherLibrarian*

      Do you have a colleague or someone else who could speak to your professional skills? I’ve used Colleagues in the past when I didn’t want to let my current boss know I was job hunting. That might help.

  7. Pineapple*

    Why am I SO BAD at this?

    I work for a company. I’ve been here for a little over 5 years. Twice I’ve referred people.

    First one–I was a seasonal rep at an office, and I had a friend who had just graduated college and needed a job. My company was in dire need of people at that time. I referred her for an admin/customer service position. For this job, admins are required to work the same extended hours as the staff (they get OT). This job is typically a stepping stone to move in to that field (alongside meeting other requirements) or a placeholder until you find something else. I had told her these things prior to her applying. She was hired right away, was smart and had a great personality and everyone loved her. She left after a year and for 2 years after that complained in our friend group about how awful the job was, it was a waste of time, didn’t learn anything etc.

    Second one–a friend of a former employee was looking for a job. The former employee was great, and I kept in touch with him. He vouched for this guy, and I passed his resume along and he was hired for the admin/cs position.. Again, work requirements and trajectory were made clear before applied. 3 months in to the job, he told me he didn’t feel like he was learning anything and wanted to move to my team. I’m in a different role, and there’s not as much room for movement as there would be in his current dept where he’d be exposed to a variety of things and there’s way more room for movement and learning opportunities.

    Amongst other things is that he barely does any work–people complain that he sits on his phone all day long promoting his business, came to work super sick and didn’t want to take a paid sick day because he wanted to save it for a vacation, and was petitioning to have the company close the entire week of Christmas instead of the 3 days we were given.

    I feel like for both of them, I made a really bad decision in referring them. After the first one, I decided to never refer anyone again. But then this one came along and I took a chance. My job/career isn’t in recruiting but I do hire for my team occasionally. I have hired 5 remote workers and they have worked out really well, but sometimes these 2 experiences make me doubt my self.

    2. Ptarmigan*

      It’s really hard. I referred someone for a job here whom I’ve known since the early 90s, a brilliant guy, and he ended up hating the job and being fired. I was later subjected to a 45-minute rant from my boss about how awful he was, while I almost literally begged him to stop talking to me about it. Ugh. I had no idea before then how stressful it could be to recommend someone for a job.

      1. Quickbeam*

        I stopped recommending anyone for jobs, even if it came with an internal finder bonus. It just never seems to work out and I’m the bad guy.

    3. Faith*

      Honestly, it sounds like the first one wasn’t bad–just maybe not a good fit for her, ultimately. That’s not something you could’ve known, and it’s kind of crappy of her to complain when she needed a job and you helped her. But as long as she did her job fine, that’s NOT a bad referral. The second one was for someone you hadn’t actually worked with, so it’s less of a surprise you didn’t realize this guy wasn’t going to be great at the job, and that’s the referral I would worry about, since it’s the one that reflects poorly on you.

      I think the lesson you should learn from these referrals is, stick to referring people you’ve actually worked with/actually know, and recognize that it’s also on them to decide if they’ll be happy working in the role you’re referring them for.

      1. Annony*

        I think it depends on whether she is complaining about the OP recommending her or just complaining about the job. You can hate the job while also being thankful someone helped you get the job when you needed it.

      2. LKW*

        This. You didn’t actually work with either of them. You gave them information about a job but either they didn’t listen or they assumed that what you do is common for all departments. Those are good questions to ask in an interview, not complain about a year later.

    4. Dragoning*

      I’m not sure what is so wrong with the first case. Yes, the trajectory of the job was made clear to her, and if she needed a job, and especially one right out of college, might not understand that, or necessarily put it up high on the list of priorities.

      She was great at her job, and everyone loved her. She didn’t derive personal satisfaction from it, but…a lot of jobs are like that, and she was complaining to her friends not her coworkers (complaining in the friend group, especially after she left, seems normal to me, and may not even have been to you directly).

      The new guy sounds like an issue.

      But I also think you’re worrying way too much about whether or not people like the job, and that doesn’t always matter so much.

      1. Pineapple*

        Hmmm, you’re right liking the job doesn’t matter so much as long as you do it well, and I didn’t think of it that way. I think maybe the first one is more personal because she just complained about it all the time–I didn’t say anything b/c as a friend I want to give someone the room to vent and be themselves….but it stung a little bit. Lots of time has passed so it doesn’t sting now.

    5. Annony*

      The first one didn’t do a bad job and it sounds like that job has high turnover anyway. I don’t really see anything wrong with that recommendation. The second time it was someone you didn’t actually know. I think a policy of not referring anyone you don’t know personally is very reasonable. If they really push, you can pass on the resume and give the caveat that you can’t vouch for their work since you don’t know them personally.

    6. Havarti*

      I just want to point out that referring people and hiring are kinda two different things even though both involve taking risks. For hiring, you’re looking at resumes and skills as objectively as possible to determine if the person will be a good fit. With referrals, there’s the added baggage of relationships that can blind you to their faults or lack of skills or make them treat the favor you are doing for them as some god-given right you owe them and then they complain about it anyway afterwards.

      An old friend recently reached out with an invite to dinner. Turned out he was looking for office work. I was like, “The jobs are posted on the company website. You can apply through there.” I like him well enough as a friend but no way am I vouching for him. He doesn’t have the skills and he has a massive chip on his shoulder. Best to stick to the “no referrals” policy.

    7. Artemesia*

      I would only refer people you had worked with and thus had a better idea of as employees. If it is a personal friend as in the first case, you could tell the friend about an opening if they ask but tell them that since you have never worked with them, you aren’t able to be a reference.

    8. Mockingjay*

      I stopped doing referrals when I realized that I had to do the same level of due diligence that I would for any other applicant. When it comes to a friend of a friend, or friend of former coworker, there’s social pressure to immediately forward their resume without much consideration (do they really fit the job?). But if said resume was submitted via regular application means, you’d evaluate it against formal criteria, the same as the other applicants.

      Nowadays I gently suggest: “Oh, the best way to apply is via our applicant system. I’m not involved in the hiring for this position. Good luck to your friend.”

    9. Anne Elliot*

      I think I would want more clarity as to what a “referral” looks like to your company. If you have the ability to refer while saying, essentially, “Hey, this guy is a friend of a friend, I don’t really know him but he looks good on paper, here you go,” I would be happy to continue referring so long as my company knew I was nothing more than a conduit or “pass along.” If instead, the referral implicitly included you vouching for the person, then I would not continue to refer people. You’re not a guarantor of anyone’s work performance, and if you think your company might see you in that role for people you refer, then stop referring anyone. For the examples you give, a younger Anne probably would have referred a personal friend and then similarly felt “burned” when he or she ended up to be a bit of dud. A younger Anne would not have referred a friend of an ex-employee, someone I did not personally know.

      The Anne who is writing this no longer refers anybody, because although they would deny it, my company does sort of act like if you referred someone, you must be vouching for them. I’m not interested in being involved in the politics or responsibility of someone else’s job performance, so I don’t do referrals.

      1. Pineapple*

        [I] If you have the ability to refer while saying, essentially, “Hey, this guy is a friend of a friend, I don’t really know him but he looks good on paper, here you go,” I would be happy to continue referring so long as my company knew I was nothing more than a conduit or “pass along.” [/I]

        That’s exactly how it is. A lot of people refer their friends & family for positions, esp internships or admin/cs positions. I guess I was just thinking about it a lot lately, there’s someone here who’s referred his sibling, in law, and friends and they all seem to be great hires.

        For the second one, even the guy’s manager doesn’t’ fault me for it, he understands that’s just how it is. I think I’m taking this way more seriously than it is.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      The common thread in your two examples is the particular position. My guess would be the particular job sucks. Hopefully TPTB will reconfigure the job so that people would be more likely to stay.

      I am not sure why getting two wrong makes you doubt yourself. It really shouldn’t. I think all that went wrong here is that it’s a mind-dulling job and you picked people who want to grow their careers. That’s not a mix that will work well, if ever. I think if you stop trying to find people for this job your batting average will go up again.

      1. Pineapple*

        ehhh, it’s administrative/CS…. I think the nature of the job is like that… it’s the easiest* to get but the hardest–long hours, angry clients.

        A lot of changes have taken place over hte last 5 years, and now the company tries their best with giving good benefits and a decent salary and majority of coworkers are fun and nice to talk to. For some it’s a stepping stone to something better or a good way to get experience. It’s turnover but they either move up or move out.

        Note I’m not saying it’s an easy job–but given that our company and from what I’ve seen in my job searching days, most companies do, the admin/cs is the lowest “rung” of the ladder. It’s typically the lowest paid but truly, it takes a very specific skillset and disposition to be successful and enjoy it IMO.

    11. Mrs_helm*

      What jumped out at me was:
      1) you described the job as “This job is typically a stepping stone to move in to that field”
      2) both complained they didn’t learn anything

      I would stop describing it that way. It sounds to me like they were hoping for a much more interesting job than they got. But on the flip side, 1-2 yrs isnot very long to go from an admin position to something else, so I also think they were a little unrealistic in their expectations.

      I think you are actually good at this, since 2 recs got hired.

      1. Pineapple*

        The first one didn’t want to go in our field, she just needed a job that wasn’t food service or retail and had just finished college. so I guess I can understand she didn’t like it.

        The second one–he does want to be in this field. Even his manager said “he’d learn something if he looked up from his phone.” Majority of people in the same position have been promoted after meeting requirements.

    12. Jean*

      So, this all sounds like stuff that wasn’t within your control. Shit happens, you could not have been expected to know or prevent any of this.

      But your never-refer-anyone policy is probably a good idea. I have the same policy. There’s just too much potential for things to go extremely wrong, and it can reflect back on you in a negative way. Not worth it. I also never ask anyone to refer me, for the same reason. Not because I would do a bad job, but I could just turn out to be a bad fit for whatever reason, and I don’t want that coming back on the person who referred me.

    13. Dave*

      I admit that I’ve become old and grouchy (perhaps even cantankerous). I’ve developed a policy, I don’t recommend anything or anyone to anybody at anytime. I’m tired of being the bad guy, even if t’s not my fault. Use the internet and research yourself. If you make a mistake, it’s your mistake, not mine.

    14. Senor Montoya*

      Oh yeah, we have people on staff now that I referred and some of them are objectively sucky people, although they are reasonably competent. I had worked with them on cross-department projects, which was the basis of my referral. I always tell the person asking why I’m recommending them. It’s up to the search committee and hiring manager to do their due diligence.

      Plus at least one of them has gotten bad over the years — couldn’t have predicted that.

      It’s not like you hired them, you just referred them. In future, I’d say to make sure you include why you are referring/recommending and make it clear the SCOPE of your knowledge about them.

      And even if you were the person hiring them, it’s never a guarantee that people will work out.

    15. Chaordic One*

      You do have to be kind of picky in whom you might refer for a job with your employer. I wouldn’t refer just anyone. I’d really want to limit myself to referring only people I had actually worked with and knew to do good quality work.

      That said, if you honestly felt the person would do a good job, and it turned out they didn’t, then forgive yourself and move on. (You might not have much credibility in making referrals going forward, but that’s a comparatively minor problem in the overall scheme of things.) If the referral ends up losing the job, so be it.

    16. LlamaGoose*

      To echo what DustBunny said (and to put this in perspective), I have recommended three people for jobs throughout my career. None of them ended up getting the job. Likewise, a friend from college did me a favor and referred me for a job in his company last year, but I didn’t make it past the second round of interviews.

      It’s up to the hiring manager to figure out which applicant will be the best fit for the job based on their interviews, resumes, and references.

      While I don’t know about your workplace specifically, IME hiring managers at most workplaces get recommendations from multiple employees every single time there’s an opening. Everybody has an out-of-work friend or a family member stuck in a job she hates. Everybody mostly wants to be decent and try to give someone they care about a leg up.

      You didn’t do anything wrong in either case. Probably the hiring manager blames himself for not vetting thoroughly enough, not you for recommending. If he does blame you, he’s being really unfair. Placing the blame that way seems unlikely in my experience, though.

    17. ArtK*

      You’re being far too hard on yourself. This is like blaming someone’s divorce on the person who introduced the couple.

      You introduced these people to an employer. They went through the whole process of resume/interview/acceptance. You didn’t force them to take the job. They chose to take the job of their own free will and all of the responsibility falls on their shoulders. If they developed buyer’s remorse, then they need to do a better job at searching.

      The same goes for the employer in the 2nd situation. If they simply took your referral as anything more than “here’s someone you might look at,” then they failed at their due diligence. The 2nd person doesn’t do their work? You have zero control over that and zero responsibility for them being in that situation.

  8. AnonToday*

    Reposting from last week, since I got there too late to get more than 1 response & still have the same issue:

    Any tips for getting over a distracting & inappropriate work crush, when you can’t avoid interacting with them or working late together?

    BG: I have a big crush on my team lead. The nature of our jobs requires frequent business travel, during which 12+ hour days are common. The whole team carpools together and stays in the same place, so there’s really no getting away outside your own hotel room. Sometimes just the 2 of us need to work late, and that’s especially challenging.

    This is 100% not going anywhere. Even if it were reciprocated and we weren’t both in committed LTRs, I wouldn’t be trolling for dates at work. Normally, I’d just keep it to myself, enjoy the little extra sparkle in my workday, and wait for it to pass. Here, though, I’m worried that it’s coloring my interactions with them — I try really hard to keep it under wraps, but questions and conversations with them seem much more charged than with other colleagues, and I don’t want to a) have anyone at work guess what’s going through my head, or b) get in the way of the professional goals I’m working towards.

    Thoughts?

    1. Dragoning*

      If you’re in a LTR, focus on that. Make sure that is as satisfying and fulfilling and possible. It sounds like you work and are away from home a lot which might be negatively impacting it. But fantasizing about alternatives tends to fade a lot when you’re fully satisfied with what you have.

      1. Havarti*

        I think it is worth examining how happy you are with your LTR and just make sure there’s nothing subconscious that’s bugging you there. Someone recently wrote in for help elsewhere who was like “I’m been happily married for years but I spent all last year traveling away from home while my wife stayed with our young kids which she said was very stressful. Now I find out she has a crush on some guy from the play date group!” Most people were like “Maybe you should ask your wife if she’s also been happily married all these years with her partner gone for months and wrangling the kids by herself.” But if everything is solid there, than that’s one less thing to worry about.

        Some people just have that extra bit of charisma that makes you fall for them. Had an old boss I loved but not in a sexual way. He was married with kids. But he had a big booming laugh and a sly sense of humor. I adored him. I was very young so I just blurted out one day “Hey, I just want you to know I’m not hitting on you or anything! I just really like talking to you.” He was very gracious about it thankfully.

    2. Moth*

      I don’t know if this is the best technique, but it’s worked for me when I’ve been in similar situations. Try to find something that could potentially annoy you about them. This could be as simple as the way they laugh or their handwriting or their crooked smile. Even better if they have a true personality trait that could be considered annoying. Then focus on how much you dislike that thing about them. Every time you’re with them, notice that thing and think about how annoying it is and thus how annoying they are. Over time, I’ve found that it can be helpful to insulate your mind from thoughts of how much you like that person and instead keeps your focus on a negative thing. Just be careful to notice when your attraction has started to ebb and make sure to lighten up in your head after that. You don’t want to push yourself all the way to actively disliking them, since you do have to work together!

      And yes, I realize how petty and terrible all of the things I pointed out to focus on are. I would never recommend doing this to someone, even in your mind, unless it was a situation like this where you are actively trying not to have a crush.

      1. BoredRecruiter*

        That’s what I do, be super petty and focus on everything negative about them. Flipped my opinion real quick.

      2. hamburke*

        This is what Carolyn Hax always recommends – find stuff that’s “normal” about them or slightly even annoying. It’s good advice!

    3. RabbitRabbit*

      Basically check out various mental tricks for extinguishing any other kind of crush. Imagine them at home having the worst kind of annoying habits that grate on your every last nerve. If your mind swerves to something sexy, throw in a mental image of them doing something annoying and/or gross. They’re interesting because you don’t know their day-to-day, behind closed doors, mundane and annoying stuff that they do when their guard is down.

      An in-close discussion isn’t going to feel nearly as intriguing if you’ve been imagining them as the type of person who leaves their shoes in the middle of the hall, dirty clothes all over the place, who belches loudly after each meal at home, etc.

      2. Muriel Heslop*

        My go-to for this is to envision your crush chomping and chewing their food with their mouth open. YMMV.

    4. ten-four*

      Been there! The main thing I’d suggest is to be ruthless in your efforts to continually de-charge conversations and “moments.” In my experience there are loads of little tiny choices around pursuing personal topics, loitering in the hallways on your way back to hotel rooms, choosing an impersonal and upbeat attitude of bland good cheer vs. a more open, confiding approach. If you can direct your energy to always choosing the de-escalating approach that’s the best thing you can do to keep your boundaries in place.

      Finding the continual motivation can be tricky. For me it was pride: I didn’t want to be obvious or come across as silly. For you it might be professional goals: you’re gonna get X out of this job come hell or high water, and you don’t want to derail that. Whatever it is, finding that engine will be helpful!

      I got pretty good at this, but I still remember some times I chose the more engaging option and am sort of embarrassed about it all these years later! Nothing ever happened and I don’t think I was obvious at any point (but real talk: I might have been).

      1. Senor Montoya*

        Excellent advice. We can’t help feeling attracted to people, but we have a choice as to how we interact with them.

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      I always recommend the hotel revolving door thought process. Basically any time a crush related thought spins through the door into your brain lobby, you spin it right back out. It doesn’t get to hang out in the bar, you don’t rent it a room. You don’t have to flagellate yourself for a thought popping up (that happens to us all), but don’t give it space in your head any more. If you spend any time at all feeding the crush with fantasies, or enjoying little “what if” day dreams, stop now. Those things are enjoyable parts of crushes when they’re “appropriate” or wanted, but in this situation, they’re very counter productive, and you need to stop entertaining them. Only allow brain space to thoughts related to this person that are 100% professional.

      1. Artemesia*

        Great advice coupled with one above about resolutely monitoring your behavior. No little chats after the meeting — ALL business. No excuses to seek him out — if you need something do it by email if possible. Allow no social dalliance but only interact in a cordial impersonal very professional way. Cut small talk to the minimum to be professional.

      2. Amy Sly*

        Part of the revolving door can also be a mental target replacement. “Oh, he has such beautiful lips; I’d love to kiss him!” pops up? Turn it into “Can’t wait to get home and kiss my hubby.” (Replace wonderful quality, pronouns, and terms of endearment as needed.)

    6. MistOrMister*

      Focusing on the fact that the crush is in one too could be helpful. Thinking about how you would react if they ever made a move on you might help squash things. I am always disgusted whenever someone who is in a monogamous relationship hits on me. My feeling is, if they’re willing to cheat on their SO with me, I have to assume they would do it to me if we were together. I find it hard to have a crush on someone I know I couldn’t trust at all. I have a tendency to check for wedding rings when I meet people and I find it helps keep my mind from being tempted to go the crush route if I see a ring. Granted that doesn’t help with the ones who don’t wear a ring or aren’t married, but it’s a first line of defense.

      Good luck finding something that works for you. Unwanted crushes are such a PITA.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      You’ve gotten some really impressive advice here, OP. I think it will help.

      My thought is to look at your life goals. Write them down, if need be. Write down the steps to achieving those goals. Then think about what are you going to do today to move toward one of those goals.

      The brain only has space for so much stuff. If you fill your brain up with life goals, you will have less space for Crush.
      I’d also suggest that you could make it a rule to never, ever make any relationship decisions while being tired. So with these long days, you gotta be beat tired. If your go-to rule is no relationship decisions while tired, that frees you up to just go back to your room for a hot soak, a cup of tea and a good night’s rest.

    8. Hazy days*

      A wise poster here told me that a crush is often actually a sign that something else in your life is lacking – not necessarily relationship wise, but perhaps in terms of not feeling valued, or feeling you’re stuck in a rut, or that you don’t get time to be yourself, etc.
      I wonder if some of that is true for you?

    9. AnonToday*

      OP here. Y’all are hilarious, and I’m sure to have several cases of the giggles next week as I think about Team Lead biting their toenails and belching really loudly at home!

  9. nep*

    Returned Peace Corps volunteers and/or hiring managers–Is it weird to put my PC volunteer experience in the ‘Education’ section of my resume? I don’t have a ‘Volunteer Experience’ section…and it certainly was an education more than anything else.
    I want to include this part of my background in this particular application I’m working on, as some of the high-up staff have been involved in Peace Corps, and it aligns with the organisation’s work. I tried to fit it into cover letter, but didn’t find a way to make that flow.
    Thoughts?
    Thanks

    1. Jedi Squirrel*

      Yeah, it’s weird. “Education” really should be about formal education/training. And to be honest, I would expect that every job or volunteer experience you’ve had would be a bit of an education. I would definitely include a “Volunteer Experience” section and add your PC experience there. This is more in line with how a hiring manager is going to look at your resume.

      Since this aligns so strongly with your prospective org’s mission and experience of the staff, I would list it second, just after your employment history.

    2. Kimmybear*

      Put it under work experience. My org hires lots of RPCV and it would seem odd to have it under education. If it’s a while ago and doesn’t fit well in your work experience section, I might create an “Other Experience” section.

      1. Teacher Lady*

        I agree with this. I know we’re called Peace Corps Volunteers, but I think it properly belongs under Work Experience, not Volunteer Experience. That’s how I have it on my resume.

    4. Liddy*

      I’m an RPCV. I keep my Peace Corps experience in the “Professional Experience” section of my resume along with my jobs and my internships. I’ve seem other RPCVs do the same thing. Even though Peace Corps is a volunteer program, its full time and long term which I think justifies treating it like a job on your resume. I would find it a little odd if I saw it in the education section of a resume since you don’t earn a degree or certificate from it.

      1. Mid*

        That was my thought as well. I know several RPCV and AmeriCorps people, and they all place it under Work Experience. You’re semi-paid for the position, and it’s definitely a full-time job. Also, you likely didn’t have another role during the ~2 years you were in PC, so you’d have a rather large hole in your resume otherwise.

        1. Eponymous*

          Plus, now the Peace Corps is really pushing the angle that they’re sending professionals out into the world for the benefit of the communities that they serve, and trying to minimize the soul-searching college student stereotype.

    6. Ms. Pessimistic*

      We get a lot of applicants with Americorps experience, so slightly different but they always include it in the work history which I think is appropriate.

    8. Aquawoman*

      It seems to me like Peace Corps would fit into the “job” category, assuming you’re talking about the you-spent-a-year-or-two-in-Ghana type of Peace Corps position. It was full time work, just unpaid.

      1. Eponymous*

        Peace Corps volunteers do receive a small monthly stipend; it’s enough to cover rent, some food, some travel (from your town to the regional or national capital), and other basic living expenses. It’s not a luxurious amount of money (as you’re meant to live at about the same level as your community), but you aren’t meant to be penniless, either.

        But full-time, definitely. Evenings, nights, and weekends, too!

    9. Eponymous*

      I wouldn’t list Peace Corps in an ‘Education’ section because it wasn’t an academic setting and it wasn’t meant to be an academic experience. I think you’d be fine listing it under an ‘Employment’ section if you don’t want to make a ‘Volunteer Experience’ section.

      I’m at work and presently don’t have my resume on-hand, but I can check to see where I put mine, although I may be in a different boat than you as I did a Peace Corps Masters International program with my university.

    10. Mimi*

      I’ve done two long-term programs like this (not Peace Corps, but similar) and list both in my work experience. Yes, I got an education, but it was also a lot of work. My volunteer experience tends to be much lighter touch — a few hours a week, at most.

      Interviewers always like them, too.

    11. NJBi*

      Echoing others, definitely list Peace Corps under “Experience” or “Work Experience.” In my mind, it’s much more similar to a two-year internship (which can be taken for educational credit, but would be listed as a work experience) than an education/classroom setting. I would say the same for AmeriCorps and similar programs.

    12. Artemesia*

      Peace corps work is work experience not ‘volunteer experience’ and belongs in the work column.

    13. LKW*

      Why can’t it go into your work experience? I mean, isn’t your assignment with PC full time? Or just create a extra activities section.

    14. A Poster Has No Name*

      I put it as part of my employment history. It was a long time ago now, so it’s not detailed at this point, but I definitely treated it as employment for the first part of my post-PCV career.

  10. Peaches*

    I’ve had THE busiest week at work (we’re an ice melt supplier and the demand has been crazy with this winter weather!)

    Anyway, I’m leaving for Hawaii for a week with my husband in 5 hours! I sure need this vacation, haha. Can’t wait to leave the office behind for a little while.

    3. Leisel*

      Take me with you! I was on vacation last week to go on a cruise with my family. Because of bad weather, the cruise was severely shortened and we didn’t get to port in Mexico. No beach for me :( And since weather was a factor, lounging on the deck wasn’t a great idea, either. I feel like I need a redo! Luckily with the holiday on Monday I didn’t have to take off much time.

      Anyway, enough of my complaining. Have a good time! I hope your vacation is relaxing and carefree!

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Oh they’ll see ice melt all right, but it’ll be in a glass in their hand!
        (Aaaand now I am not content with a 50° day…. maybe I’ll go reread “Hawaii Heat”.)

    5. Tris Prior*

      I’m going in a few weeks and am counting down the days! Can’t wait to escape the great frozen white north – I hate cold weather and this is the first time in my life that I’m traveling someplace warm during winter! Which island? Have a great time!

      1. OccassionallyEngineer*

        My fiancee and I just got back from Kaua’i about a week ago. It was GLORIOUS, just a wee bit wet and very muddy. Fantastic vacation, amazing coffee, superb food (Honestly best fish taco’s I have ever had in my life), and amazing hiking. Have an amazing time and just enjoy the islands and all the fresh papaya you can eat.

  11. Miss M*

    Thank you for those sending good vibes and thoughts for my interview that I was stupid nervous about!! Unfortunately, I don’t think it went super well. We both knew I didn’t have the exact experience for the job, and the position was the exact one I feared, so I don’t think it will work out. I did my best though!! And after talking to the boss, I don’t know if it would be a good fit for me working there. I gave the reason I was really passionate about the job (working with underrepresented women) and she didn’t really think that was important. The whole team had also turned over/been fired so it would be an interesting workplace. So, maybe in the end I dodged a little bullet! I’ll keep working hard on looking for other jobs.

    Hope the others who had commented with interviews coming up as well did amazing!

    1. LessNosy*

      Your outlook is spot-on. Good for you for getting in there, doing your best and representing yourself well. I always tell myself every interview, outcome positive or negative, is one step closer to where I want to be regardless if it’s with that company. :)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. It sounds like you’d be getting into way more than you bargained for here. You’ve got a great outlook and I am sure something will come up for you very soon.

    2. Sarah*

      Thanks for filling us in. I’ve been thinking about you.

      My interview went relatively well, but of course, I kept thinking up better answers on the drive home. Ugh! I likely won’t hear for two weeks though.

      I am SUPER thankful to AAM though because they asked for my current supervisor as a reference, and I had some language to use around that, plus they really like the question on what’s the difference between someone good and great (and it gave me some good info that I want to reference in my thank you letter).

      1. Sarah*

        I realized I just talked about myself only. I’m glad the interview was enlightening and hopefully saved you from a place you’d be miserable at.

      2. Miss M*

        That’s awesome! I’m glad it went well and I’m crossing my fingers for ya. Yes lots of thanks to AAM because the good vs great often impresses people (or stumps them lol.)

  12. DataGirl*

    Data Scientists and people with related jobs, tell me about it? What do you do, what do you like/hate, what’s the job market like? I’ve been a DBA in title for 10 years but I actually don’t do much of anything that a DBA does, and I’m thinking of going back to school to switch to Data Science. Is it worth it? Thanks!

      1. DataGirl*

        LOL! That’s what made me ask! Some of the comments made it sound like it’s not the best field to go into, anymore.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I’m a data analyst and got my masters in Data Science just because I needed a technical degree. Personally, I don’t like data science. It is really tedious and it is really more of an art than a science. The process of building predictive algorithms is straightforward on paper, but in reality you have to have a lot of experience to make something usable. At the same time, the market is starting to think that algorithms can solve all their problems. “We can just build an algorithm to tell our CSMs the words that will make customers buy our products,” …that kind on nonsense.
      It’s really still a budding concept. There were early adapters and a few places where this tech fits in, but even healthcare orgs are still struggling with finding the right place for it.
      So I’m happy with basic analytics, data modeling, and data visualization. But predictive analytics may be your cup of tea, and if that’s the case, I’d just recommend that you understand that it takes a lot of shadowing and real world experience to really be a master. And in the meantime, you will prob end up doing a lot of work that doesn’t get used until your org figures it out or you move to a company that is on the ball. Good luck!

      1. Grapey*

        +10000, and really, unless you have a product or business model that never changes, predictive analytics is super overhyped. Analytics/data modeling/warehousing is where it’s at to even get a business knowing where it is CURRENTLY, forget about the future.

        Someone commented on that other thread that data science is like a mix of business knowhow and computer engineering and I thought that was great.

        Being in comp sci alone isn’t enough to understand a business model and ask appropriate questions of your (often huge) data pool, and having an MBA alone doesn’t let you actually build that big data pool.

        A real life project example (for OP): I get a ticket with a request like “how many widgets get moved through our factory per day/month/user defined timescale?” I have to know the business logic of what a widget is and what it means to “move”. The line workers consider “movement” = widget on machine, widget off machine, but ops leads consider “movement” = work order placed to work order completed. I have to go have conversations with lots of people (another skill), at which point the result is usually “just show both definitions”. Okay.

        So then I have to figure out how to actually get timestamps of 1)when is the work order placed 2) when is the widget put on the machine 3) when is the widget taken off 4)when is the work order completed. 1 and 4 require knowledge of digging into our work order database which requires SQL knowledge. 2 and 3 require knowing computer science to parse machine logs/output, which in my industry is either CSV, XML or JSON, and then writing that into a database.

        Once I get my datapoints accessible, I then use my knowledge of building useful visualizations. Bar chart per product (since of course we run more than one flavor of widget) or line graph? etc. We could potentially use predictive modeling to answer certain questions, but we change products so often to the point our predictive models probably wouldn’t have much to work with.

        I’ve been at my job for 13+ years so I know all of the little systems and workarounds (some which I’ve built). Moving someplace every 1-2 years IMO makes one not as valuable since you lose a lot of domain knowledge.

    4. DBI*

      Not a data scientist exactly, more of a data developer, technically my title is Director of Business Intelligence and I LOVE my job. I have SQL databases and build things in various reporting platforms for others to use – so I don’t do the analyzing myself like a data scientist might. However, it does require getting really in-depth understanding of what you are reporting on and the people using your reports, so I get a good mix of technical, design, and personal/industry work.

      I don’t have a degree yet but I am going back to school part time right now because: I love it, and it can be hard to get the kind of job I do without a degree. I’m working on a computer science degree because I love the development side of what I do. I don’t think I want to be a developer per se, I just want to get even better at what I already do.

      I am actually a brand new director in a department created for me, hiring one analyst, and while I definitely don’t/won’t require a degree, it might sway a hiring decision, partly because I want to hire someone that knows things I don’t.

      I would recommend finding an intro to computer science course at a community college and taking that online/at night. It’s relatively cheap to do one class and it will give you a good sense of if you actually like the work.

      1. Hello It's Me*

        What kinds of projects would one have to complete in a portfolio to get a job as a data scientist?

    5. FellowDataGirl*

      I started off working as an analyst, then went back to school for my Masters (with a focus in behavioral economics, not data science, but there was a lot of overlap in tools). Then I started working in marketing analytics, specifically related to customer segmentation. Now I’m working as a data strategist, which involves thinking about how data can actually help a company achieve business goals. I love my job, I get to play with data and think about how its use fits into overall strategy.

      Honestly, if you have a strong background in statistics and econometric methods you can learn a lot of the tools fairly easily online (I have used R, now mostly use Python and SQL). It’s more important that you know what’s going on inside the black box, I’m fairly tool agnostic.

      But if you aren’t feeling confident in math then it may be worth going back to school. I’d also recommend building up some data science projects and adding them to your GitHub repository because some employers will look there–and if they don’t, you can direct them there to see examples of your work. I’d also recommend at least thinking about what industry you’d like to work in, so employers in that industry can see how your projects would benefit them (i.e., if you’re interested in finance, a bunch of projects on baseball statistics won’t help as much).

      1. Hello It's Me*

        What is the pay like for a data scientist, if I may ask? Is it as high as a web developer?

        1. Lygeia*

          You should take a look at Burtch Works Executive Recruiting. They have a free to download salary study focusing specifically on data science. Good place to get an idea about salary.

        2. FellowDataGirl*

          I’m at about $86,000, not including bonuses which range from about $5,000 to $10,000 a year. I’m pretty in line with the median for individual contributors with my level of experience (5 years), at least in my area. YMMV, depending on your market.

          1. FellowDataGirl*

            For context, the average web developer salary for people with 5 years experience in my area is about $55,000. So definitely below the national average. LCOL though!

        3. Product Person*

          I’m a real data scientist–in the meaning I do the work as defined by the companies that popularized the term, like Google.

          It’s way different than, say, a business intelligence analyst working with data from a warehouse, or a SQL analyst, or a Tableau expert.

          You are typically working with big data, unstructured data, possibly images or text, for batch or online inference. To give an example, in my last job I had to use Spark (a framework that makes it faster to aggregate Terabytes of data) to calculated statistics for data streaming from millions of mobile phones.

          A friend of mine, also data scientist, uses machine learning to optimize the order of search result in a job board, so that job seekers can see the best matches first. In my current job I use machine learning to predict which patients are at risk of being readmitted to the hospital due to avoidable side effects of their medications, so nurses can schedule care calls they can’t make to all patients but are able to place for those at higher risk to help them avoid the bad outcome.

          As you can see, the field of data science is vast, but it requires different skills than a traditional data analyst used to work with structured data that has a fixed data schema. For one thing it requires more creativity to deal with unruly data, sparse data, and categorical data that needs to be encoded before being fed into a machine learning model (just to list a some of the differences).

          As to salary, 130K was my starting salary when I had no experience and was changing careers. It’s significantly higher now that I have a track record of developing high performance models.

          The market is hot but it doesn’t mean most companies will hire anyone. In my last job, they interviewed for two years and rejected a large number of candidates (most with PhDs, some data analysts) before hiring me (I have a master’s degree).

  13. Jedi Squirrel*

    We’re a small organization and about 30% of our people have been out this week due to the flu. Anyone else going through this? Any strategies/tips for managing when such a big chunk of your work force is out?

      1. Remember Neopets?*

        Our office is also in the midst of sickness and I saw something on Instagram this morning that really helped me. It was meant to apply more to work-life balance, but I’m applying it in my office.
        Each task is another ball to juggle. Some balls are plastic and some are glass. Your challenge is knowing which balls you can drop where it won’t be the end of the world.
        So figure out which work tasks are plastic and which are glass and drop the plastic ones.

        Also, clorox wipes. Wipe down filing cabinets and doorknobs. And wash your hands as soon as you get home!

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          I saw a discussion of the glass/plastic ball analogy on Twitter today! I was really taken with the idea of juggling many many small balls labelled “take child to tennis”, “get hair cut” and “clear out llama enclosure” etc rather than the traditional analogy of “work” “family” “self-care” as a very few big beach balls. You can drop a plastic family ball in favour of a glass work ball without favouring work over family overall.

          It was like a lightbulb went on in my head!

          1. Jedi Squirrel*

            I like both of these outlooks! These are very helpful ways to frame it.

            Now to adapt them to a business context…

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Not to be flippant, but plan to hold an office flu shot clinic next year. If your organization is too small to call in a healthcare professional to administer shots, then perhaps go in with another office. Or see if there’s a professional organization in your field offering a clinic. Or talk to your office building’s management to see if they won’t hold something for their tenants. Maybe incentivize people with a coffee gift card or something. Otherwise, look into planning how to cover a good number of simultaneous absences again next year.

      Other thoughts that come to mind going forward: Are people cross-trained over a couple-few job positions, so that one empty desk won’t result in a complete loss of forward progress on that person’s work? Can you add a budget line for hiring some temps next year?

      1. Lily in NYC*

        We have free flu shots at work and we still have a ton of sick people. It’s just one of those years.

        1. Artemesia*

          The shot is not a good match for the flu this year alas; from what I have read it is really hammering kids. Although the elderly are always at risk apparently this one is not quite as vicious to them as to kids this time out; perhaps the strains are things many older people have been exposed to before.

          And yeah, free shots in the workplace are a great idea and many years will keep the flu at bay.

        2. PollyQ*

          There’s something nasty going around that isn’t the flu, too. My sister was down for a solid 10 days after New Year’s, but she didn’t test positive for flu.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            My state is reeling from a 2-3 week cold that made me almost wish I HAD tested positive for the flu so they’d have prescribed Tamiflu.
            But it’s nothing like what China is looking at with its “uncommon cold” that’s killed people.

          2. Gatomon*

            There definitely are some nasty cold strains this year! There are two different colds rampaging through my office so almost everyone is suffering from back-to-back illnesses. I rarely catch colds, but I fell victim to both this year.

    3. Mimi*

      The past three weeks have been brutal. Mostly it’s been a non-flu plague, but we’ve had similar staffing challenges recently.

      I just focus on the fact that there aren’t as many of us available (and the ones who are maybe aren’t at 100%), so we won’t be able to get as much work done, and then try to prioritize the work that would be the biggest problem if it got dropped.

    4. JustMyImagination*

      Triage what tasks must be done- payroll, government deadlines, major client deadlines- and just let the rest wait. It will still be there on Monday!

    5. Librarian of SHIELD*

      The year that H1N1 swept through, the management where I worked had a full day meeting where they worked out a whole system of contingency plans. They made lists upon lists of all our daily activities and how long we could function if there wasn’t anyone there to do them, and what staff could potentially be reassigned to other duties if everyone in one department was out sick. Then they decided that if we fell below a set minimum staffing level, the office would have to be closed. I feel like that’s a worthwhile conversation for organizational leadership to have, because there’s always the potential that someone could get sick and infect the rest of your staff, whether it’s a bad flu season or not.

      In the moment, though, I’d recommend making it clear to staff that you don’t expect them to martyr themselves in an effort to cover for their sick coworkers. Tell them you know that each person can only handle so much, and you don’t expect 10 people to manage the work that usually requires 15 people to get it done. And be really clear on which tasks are priority and which ones can wait until you’re back up to full staff.

    6. ES*

      We are in a similar spot, what’s worse is that we are a child care center so we have to maintain ratios regardless of illness. It makes it so hard!

    7. WantonSeedStitch*

      Take a look at your priorities, and see if there’s anything that can be put on the back burner until the workforce has recovered, and reassign people to work on the higher priorities who were working on those things. Also, if your workplace allows it and the work you do permits it, encourage more remote work: if people aren’t coming into the office, that’s one less place where they’re likely to contract or spread flu germs.

    8. Introvert girl*

      Idea for next year: our office got us free vaccines, a doctor and a nurse came to the office and if you wanted, you could get vaccinated during your workday. Haven’t been sick so far.

  14. MsApril*

    How do you get over a petty manager? I have the opportunity to do something that would make my job easier but my manager doesn’t want it because “she’s been her longer” and just got it herself but the business just changed it there is room for both of us to do this when before it wasn’t possible for anyone. There is no business reason to block it. I’m considering leaving because I‘be lost complete respect for her and the pettiness.

    For the record she’s been here a year longer than I have.

    1. Aquawoman*

      That’s completely ridiculous. Is she generally petty? Can you treat this as a freakish one-off for god knows what reason?

      1. MsApril*

        She’s only been the manager a couple of weeks but she was a bit before but not for work related things.

    2. Leisel*

      Maybe have a sit down with her and say something like, “I worry that we’re slowing down progress if we don’t allow ourselves to take advantage of new developments. Can you explain to me why we shouldn’t implement this new development? I’m having a hard time understanding.”

      If she can’t give you a logical answer and still blocks you for no good reason, is there a way to take it over her head? Seems like a manager above you would want to be aware that she’s hesitant to let you make your job easier (!!!). Good luck!

      1. Mid*

        I’d say also document everything you can while doing this. You might not need it, but also someone acting this petty might lash out later on.

      2. MsApril*

        I could go to the owner but I’m not sure I want to waste capital on this. I worry about looking like I’m the one being petty.

        1. Mimi*

          If you think it’s worth pushing back, I think asking for an explanation of why your idea won’t work could be good. But if that doesn’t go anywhere and you’re not sure it’s worth spending capital, I’d be very wary of going over my boss’s head about something she’s being weirdly resistant about that ultimately isn’t that important.

        2. RecoveringSWO*

          Yeah, it sounds like something I wouldn’t waste capital on either. I would document it and put together some sort of a canned summary of the situation that you can use in the future. If boss is petty over this, she’s likely got other deficiencies and if the owner ever has a skip meeting with you as a result of her performance, you could recall this as an example of her questionable judgment. Or, if you build up some more political capital at work and want to fight it, you could express this as an example of your initiative (despite being turned down) at a performance meeting if your owner attends those.

    3. Anne Elliot*

      If the thing is now available to more than one user, I would suggest respectfully renewing your request, in writing, with an explanation of how it will positively impact your job if you have it but negatively impact your job if you don’t. “Hi, Manager: I know we talked about allowing me to access the International Llama Registry, but you decided that with only one user license, it was best for you to have that access. I understand the ILR has offered additional user licenses at little to no cost. Under those circumstances, I wanted to renew my request for an ILR user license. An ILR user license would allow me to easily confirm that llamas we consider purchasing are registered. As you know, currently I have to call for registration data on each individual llama sale because I do not have access to the database. I estimate it would cut in half the time it takes me to handle llama registration confirmation in half, if I could streamline that task by using the ILR. With that extra time, I could direct more attention to the llama sales newsletter, which you and I had agreed it would be great to see expanded. Let me know your thoughts, and thanks!”

      Then if it doesn’t happen, you have documented that you asked. It will be up to your manager to justify why the answer was “no.”

    4. ThatMarketingChick*

      Agree with previous posters that suggest just asking for an explanation. There are some things your manager is privy to that you’re not – and asking her to explain things may sort that out. Just because you don’t see a business reason to block it, doesn’t mean there isn’t a reason.

      It seems as though you don’t particularly like or respect your manager. Which is fine, because some managers don’t do a very good job. I strongly discourage you from going over your manager’s head without first attempting to find out from her why this opportunity isn’t available. If I were your grandboss, and you came to me with this, I’d turn you back around and tell you to try and resolve it with your manager first. It’s not an easy conversation, but if you can keep your wits about you and discuss it calmly, you can at least confirm you handled things properly.

  15. Anon and on*

    Is gender discrimination female to female a thing? Having an issue with a person in our office who is female who insists admins (all female) should not wear jeans to work ever. However, the consultants (all male) can wear them every day ehether they are in the office or not. Also, her assistant (female, non admin) wears jeans to the office. Am I crazy to think we are being discriminated against?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Yes, it’s definitely a thing. Sometimes it’s internalized sexism. Sometimes it’s feeling that, because of sexism against women, only one or two token women can be at the top, so pushing other women down would supposedly give them an edge in what they perceive to be a zero-sum game.

      I’ve worked in many schools that enforce dress codes in a sexist way against female students, and it can often be the female teachers who are the worst about policing.

    2. Another Millenial*

      Absolutely. Many women suffer from internalized misogyny. However, if this rule applies to admins only, and the admins just happen to be all female, I’m not sure if a complaint would hold up. You might have to prove that if there were a male admin, would he be able to wear jeans? I’m curious as to why only females hold the admin role, but it could just be coincidence. Hard to tell.

      1. BoredRecruiter*

        I was going to say this. I have a friend who requires her direct report to dress more professionally than everyone else, but that’s because she’s customer facing, and the men in the back and warehouse don’t talk to customers in person directly (or are out on a job, where jeans and workbooks are appropriate).

    3. blackcat*

      As long as there’s not a difference in interacting with the public vs not in the job roles, I would just keep saying “Huh, I don’t see why these roles would have different dress codes.” and then wear what I want to wear.

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        I would respectfully disagree. Obviously different workplaces have different practices and cultures, but my sense is that in general being a lone obstructionist rarely leads to productive results. I’d for sure lobby for a change in policy if that’s your goal–backed up by whatever data or logic at your disposal. But I wouldn’t recommend simply going rogue; it tends to lower morale and produce negative results for all involved.

      2. Fikly*

        And then you would be fired? You disagreeing with a policy does not mean you do not have to follow it.

    4. Ruth (UK)*

      I think if she’s ok with her female non-admin assistant wearing jeans (so the acceptability of wearing jeans is related to position, not gender) then in this particular case, it doesn’t sound like gender-discrimination to me (even if all the admins happen to be women and the consultants happen to be male – if, presumably, the rule would apply to a male admin or a female consultant).

      However, I do think more broadly it is very possible for women to discriminate against other women based on gender and it does happen.

      ps. It might also be worth the company looking into why/how they’ve only hired female admins and only male consultants but I’m guessing that’s not something you’re in a position to be looking at yourself.

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        pps. I also don’t necessarily agree with a rule that says consultants can wear jeans but admins can’t – I just don’t think this particular case necessarily sounds like discrimination is based on gender from the little information I have (that could change with further info).

    5. Hazelthyme*

      Yes, it’s discrimination if your dress code treats men and women differently regardless of who’s making the call. I can see it getting muddy for items that the larger society still treats differently on men and women (skirts/dresses, long hair), but not for jeans. The only legit rules I’ve seen about jeans are that they need to be clean, no rips, no underwear visible, and so on.

      1. Hazelthyme*

        Amending to say I didn’t notice it was admins (who all happen to be female) vs. non-admins. You’re probably on better ground there if it’s a distinction between public/client-facing and not, but I still wonder …

    6. pieces_of_flair*

      Does this person actually have authority over you, i.e., do you have to pay attention to her wardrobe preferences? Is there a written company dress code?

      It sounds like she is saying “no jeans for anyone in an admin position” rather than “no jeans for women” (and, in fact, non-admin women can wear jeans), so that doesn’t sound like gender discrimination.

    7. Zona the Great*

      I’ve experienced gender discrimination from women more than I have from men, sadly. I believe it is a societal thing that we don’t realize we bought into. I have worked for a woman who’d write the women up for not wearing panty hose under slacks while men could wear appropriate socks. I’ve had female bank customers refuse to believe policies until a man told them it was policy. I’ve had women stop me to fax their shit, sign for packages, change the toner all while the male receptionist sat by idly. Women are the ones who stop at my office to ask me to join the party committee or help set up the conference room for a big meeting when I’m a big-dog myself. Women are the ones who give me side eye for not staying and cleaning up after lunch meetings.

      It’s very frustrating.

      1. Secret Identity*

        Out of curiosity, how would anyone know what anyone else was wearing underneath slacks? There are trouser socks that look similar to pantyhose on the foot, so how could they possibly know it was trouser socks vs. pantyhose?

        1. Zona the Great*

          She would make a point of checking. She would literally ask you to raise your pant leg. She would check your pants to see if there were rivets or outside pockets. She was wildly unreasonable.

      2. Lily in NYC*

        Ugh, it’s maddening! I generally get along well with everyone but I had one job at a law firm where the women were mostly middle-aged Mean Girls. One of them reported me to HR for wearing flip-flops and I got called in to be written up. I showed the HR director my shoes, which were NOT flip-flops, nor were they thong sandals – they were those black slides that everyone wore in the early 2000s. The HR director was wearing almost the same exact shoes. I was so done with that job at that point that I mouthed off and told the director to tell “Jenny” (I knew exactly who turned me in even though they didn’t tell me) to mind her own damn business and to make sure she’s actually correct the next time she tries to get me in trouble for no reason. A few weeks later “jenny” got a paper cut in her eye (freak accident and pretty horrifying) and I told her it was karma. I quit a week after that and left Jenny a nice pile of unfinished work to complete. Good times.

        1. Another Millenial*

          I think there’s some sort of ingrained competitiveness leftover from when very few women could be allowed to hold successful roles, so we still try to claw over each other on our way to the top.

    8. Coffee Cup*

      It for sure is! What you are describing is ridiculously sexist, whether it comes from a woman or a man.

    9. Nicki Name*

      In addition to what Anonymous Educator said, sometimes it’s anxiety that anything one woman does will make all the women including the discriminator look bad.

    10. Muriel Heslop*

      I am in education and I see internalized sexism all the time. Overall, it’s better than when I started 20+ years ago but it’s still evident. And don’t even get me started on how sexualized our dress codes can be!

      It sounds like this woman is applying her standards unevenly as well. How come her admin can wear jeans but no other admins? That’s very unfair unless there is something I missed?

      1. CatMintCat*

        I’m a primary school (K-6) teacher and sexism is rampant. Male teachers are thin on the ground but, when you find one, my lord, are they favourited. The ticket to a promotion is to have a penis, not to be a good teacher. Then they’re promoted above their ability to function, as they don’t have the classroom experience needed, and it’s the fault of the woman on the next step down. Always.

    11. Middle School Teacher*

      Definitely. I actually wrote a paper on female gate keeping against women for my masters. It’s real, pervasive, and really unfortunate.

    12. NJBi*

      Frankly, I’m concerned about the fact that all of the admins are female and all the consultants are male! I could see someone making the case that the admins need to be dressed more professionally if they’re in a more public-facing role, or if these are the only people for whom this coworker gets to set the dress code (like, she’s adamantly anti-jeans herself but knows she can’t outlaw them for her peers). But the fact that this dress-code division creates a gender division… that’s not a good look.

      And in answer to the question, a woman can definitely perpetuate sexism and gender discrimination in a workplace (e.g., a female exec says that she will only hire men to be managers because she believes they’re more qualified than women).

    13. Person from the Resume*

      Yes to your question that women can and do discriminate against other women, but your example of it does not demonstrate it since her female assistant wears jeans presumably without repercussions from her.

    14. MonteCristo85*

      To be honest, in my experience it is more of a thing than male to female discrimination.

      IDK if this lives up to a title of discrimination, but I think you would be well within your rights to go and ask why it is ok for the men to wear jeans and not the women. See what the answer is. Decide from there what should be your next step. It might be more of an issues with the consultants vs admins than the male/female thing, but then you are down the rabbit hole of why all the consultants are men and the admins are all female.

      1. MonteCristo85*

        Is it one boss over all? Because sometimes different bosses have different rules, and they don’t have to be the same from department to department.

    15. Not So NewReader*

      You folks have NO idea how HAPPY I am to see all the comments here.
      It’s long been my belief that women do as much if not MORE than men do to hold other women back.

      For some women it is so ingrained that they do not even realize how much society has changed and how others are aware of their poor choices/narrow thinking.

      I worked in a nursery in the 80s. I had a female customer tell me that because I am a woman it is biologically impossible for me to learn about plants. Just in case this was not clear enough for me, she expanded to say that as a woman I was missing parts of my brain that would allow me to understand plants.
      I said, “You’re right” and I walked away, knowing full well there were no male coworkers on the clock at the moment, all of us were women. I assumed she left without purchasing anything.
      When the male employees were around they were great. “Oh you’ll have to go ask NSNR [or other women] she knows more about it than I do.” It was fun to watch people’s faces.

      The customers were the most biased at that job, my coworkers were pretty good. And the number of biased female customers was at least the same if not greater than the male customers.

    16. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      Yes, I had a boss who routinely treated high-performing females like garbage and would hire and promote unqualified men over them. It was a huge dumpster fire.

  16. WearingManyHats*

    Long story short, after a prolonged action plan, several months ago we termed an individual contributor who was desperate for a promotion (there are 40 people in our company) but unable to handle the new hire training and other leadership tasks he requested and was awarded. The employee’s manager agreed to be a reference, but this employee is applying for, and getting interviews for manager or director level positions! He doesn’t not have experience managing others and we don’t know what he’s putting on his resume, but his ex-manager is telling the truth as politely as possible! We are a small town so mis-telling the truth will get around. I am slack-jawed at the gall (and obliviousness).

    1. DCAnalyst2020*

      Maybe the ex-manager can request a copy of the former employee’s resume. It’s not uncommon for me to send my resume to my references so they know which parts of my experience I’ve chosen to highlight with the potential employer, so I don’t think it an unreasonable request for a reference to make. That way he will know how the employee is presenting himself and can opt out of being involved if he feels he’s misrepresenting his work history.

    2. HM MM*

      I would recommend that the manage keep telling the truth (politely) about their experience with the employee, but do keep in mind there’s so much that goes into an individuals success at certain types of roles. This person might not have been able to handle the managerial/leadership responsibilities at your company, but within a different organization (with a different manager, different structures, different approaches) maybe he could. You just never know.

      An example from own experience: I had a manager who put me on a PIP for lacking critical thinking skills necessary for the job and wanted me to get remedial training in a certain area. I did not foresee myself completing that PIP successful so I went into job searching mode overdrive. Found an exact lateral role doing the exact same things. Within a month at new job my boss handed over the area that old boss wanted me to get remedial training on for me to manage completely autonomously and within a year I had been promoted to a level above old boss.

      I’m sure that old boss thought somewhat similarly – she’s clearly failing at this work how can she possibly think its appropriate to take a lateral role. She should be looking for a step down. The thing is – even though the actual responsibilities were the same the structure and cultures of the orgs (and not to mention management styles) were completely different. I was an extremely poor fit for the one and thrived within the other.

      Again, of course I recommend telling the truth about your (general) experience with the person, but beyond that I’d let it go. Maybe this person could be an effective manager within a different organization. Or maybe (hopefully) he’ll show his unsuitability within the interview processes. Worst case scenario he bluffs his way into a manager role and does poorly, but that’s really not your concern.

      1. WearingManyHats*

        The thought is this person is talented, but needs more structure than we can provide. We’re getting questions about how they managed others (they didn’t). One of our VPs actually had breakfast with them today to suggest some larger companies they could made introductions at. We really do wish them the best, but have had some awkward reference calls…

    4. CM*

      I think it’s good to tell the truth when people call for references, but you guys don’t need to judge whether or not this person is qualified for the jobs he’s interviewing for. That’s what the interviewers on the other side are doing — and they might decide that he’s a really a good fit for management roles at their company even if he wasn’t at yours.

      1. WearingManyHats*

        True true, but it gets awkward when they ask questions about how many people this person managed and their management style when they were an individual contributor.

        1. ArtK*

          The truth is the right thing here. “Fergus was an individual contributor and had no management responsibility, authority or experience.”

  17. Vanessa*

    Can anyone share tips on making the LinkedIn job feature useful? I am looking for new opportunities and it constantly shows me irrelevant things, either because they are the wrong experience level or the wrong industry/field. I don’t seem to have luck searching by keywords either because it provides partial word matches. I’ve adjusted my profile and career interests and said “this is not for me” for listings that miss the mark. Is there anything more I can do or is this just as good as it gets?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I have the same problems (e.g. nursing and custodian jobs frequently show up for my keyword search of “sustainability”) so it might just be as good as it gets.

      I’d be interested to hear if others have suggestions.

    2. HRforYou*

      LinkedIn Jobs honestly isn’t set-up to work nearly as smoothly as other job search sites. You’re always going to have to weed out the results more than you normally would and most of them are also posted on sites like Workable, Indeed, Zip Recruiter, etc.

      But assuming you’ve already adjusted all of the filters you can (without leaving too little for LIn to work with) focus on the words you’re giving it to search with and make them specific to the job you’re looking for but not too long. You can also use quotes to focus the search on a particular word just like in Google: e.g. [“accountant” accounts receivable] if you want general accounting jobs, or [accountant accounts “receivable”] if the kind of accounting job is more important.

      Those are the basics I always start with, perhaps someone knows something I don’t to help further.
      Good luck on the job search!

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      I agree with HRforYou, really focus on your keywords and to set your expectations low(-ish) in terms of how good of a job search engine it’s going to be.

      I’ve also found it helpful to think of LinkedIn as just one more search tool, as opposed to the be-all end-all to job hunting. Any job(/or company really) that looks interesting, don’t apply through LinkedIn, just go right to the website and apply there.

      That’s my quick $0.02, good luck with the hunt!

      1. 867-5309*

        Ditto A Simply Narwhal.

        However, our company runs our applications through LinkedIn so if there is an “Apply Now” button, they usually mean it. Just remember to include your resume. I’m floored at how many people don’t, even though we expressly mentioned it in the job ad. Almost as bad, people who uploaded a resume to LinkedIn two years ago and that’s the one that gets sent.

        1. 1st in Corporate*

          Exactly. Plus LinkedIn just launched an Applicant Tracking System so many more companies will be using LinkedIn as their only job site.

  18. Anon for this*

    A job has come up at the university in the field I decided not to pursue two years ago. I meet every person requirement, including every nice-to-have. The job itself looks interesting and doesn’t have several of the aspects that led me to get out, but I don’t think there would be anywhere I’d want to go in that field after that role. Still, part of me is tempted.

    Has anyone else been in a similar situation?

    1. Pam Beesly*

      Is it worth applying just to learn more about the role and whether you think it’d be a good fit?

      1. Anon for this*

        I think what I’m actually concerned about is if I will paint myself into a corner when I’m ready to move on. The role is in a very specific subsection of the arts and matches both my university degree and an organisation I currently volunteer for. Most of my former roles were specifically for arts organisations, and it took a long time to get my current role outside of the arts (and the paid sick leave is so worth it).

        1. Friyay*

          Why not apply and see what happens? To be blunt, it sounds like you’re getting ahead of yourself. Maybe you don’t get an interview, so it’s a moot point. Maybe you don’t get the offer, also a moot point. You can decide not to accept the offer. You might learn more during the process that influences you one way or another. No harm done by applying except taking some time to update your materials.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            This – Anon is putting the cart before the horse. Apply and see if you get invited to interview. If you get one, go and determine whether your concerns are valid.

  19. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    I find myself procrastinating and staring off into space instead of doing my job. I’m about to transition to a new role and need to tighten it up. What are your favorite tricks to get yourself going?

    1. LessNosy*

      I like to treat my tasks like a game – how many things on my to-do list can I get done in a day? I don’t keep a “high score” but maybe I should :)

    2. Ptarmigan*

      Write a list on paper of a few things you hope to accomplish today. If you’re having trouble, “write this list” can totally be the first one. Draw a small box next to each one so you can check it off once you’ve done it.

    3. HONK*

      Remind myself that procrastination is fueled by the illusion that a task will hurt less if you do it later, because right now it sounds soooo unpleasant

      But in reality it usually hurts more later. Yknow what, maybe I need to keep a journal of all the times I do procrastinate and it does end up hurting more, to help jog me into action when necessary.

        1. EJane*

          I can attest to this. I’ll put off making phone calls or answer the phone and then it’ll be 30-120 seconds of painless talking.

          Or I get stuck on the phone with a very nice but VERY chatty older client for 40 minutes at the end of the day, as happened yesterday. oh well.

    4. Nonprofit Nancy*

      My only advice is that I have a “go time” music selection and when I put my headphones in and queue it up, that is my signal to myself that I really mean it this time. They say a routine helps you transition to work mode.

    5. Phantom*

      When I first get into the office, I make my self a cup of tea and make myself a to do list for the day while I enjoy it. Then, I check stuff off throughout the day as I get it done.

      I also have a quick check in meeting every morning that I use a private conference room to attend remotely. After it wraps up, I hang out for 5-10 minutes doing some yoga, nothing strenuous, just some movement and stretching to get the blood flowing.

      I don’t think it matters too much what new routines you start, just that you replace the old patterns that got you started staring into space with something that gets you going instead. Find something simple that brings you enjoyment and use that as the first step.

    6. Mid*

      I have ADHD, so I am very often struggling to stay focused. VERY often.

      Timers help me (I can look at AAM for 10 minutes, my silent alarm goes off (I have a watch that can vibrate, so I don’t disturb anyone), and then I have to start the next task)

      Mini-breaks just to walk around and move my body (drop off mail in one trip, refill my water in another, so they’re productive but also not wholly necessary at the time I’m doing them),

      Routine (half my tasks are pretty fixed, half are always changing, so I put the fixed tasks at certain times in my day, every day, to help me feel like I’m accomplishing things, and to help keep me on schedule.) If you’re struggling because everything is boring or monotonous, you could try the opposite–change things up every day or few days so it’s more interesting.

      Also to-do lists always. Always. I spend 5 minutes at the end of each day filling out my list for the next day.

      If I see that I’ve put off a task for more than 2 days, I put it at the top of my list, and force myself to do it immediately in the morning.

      My to-do list is always in an order.
      1. Any tasks I’ve been avoiding (usually only one or two–if there’s more, that’s usually a sign I’m struggling to keep up and might need to ask for help)
      2. Recurring tasks (easy to check off!)
      3. Other tasks in priority of importance and deadlines

      I also try to break down into smaller chunks when possible (so instead of saying “do Document” I have “research Document, draft Document, format Document, proofread Document, distribute Document” which makes me feel more productive.)

      1. RecoveringSWO*

        +1 on breaking down tasks into smaller chunks! This also helps me with time management. When I need to work on other projects besides document x, checking off portions of that task (ex. research doc x) gives me a good stopping point to answer emails, get another priority done, etc. I still feel productive because I checked off one portion and I also have less to review when I start back up on doc x, because I stopped at an ideal point.

    7. Artemesia*

      I have always had this problem writing and when I do — like on a big task like a book, I will just jump in and do my favorite part or the easy parts while I dither about the rest. And pretty soon it is mostly done, just not in chronological order.

      For a ton of tasks. I list them and always include some really easy things. It is very reinforcing to cross off things done and lists like this also make it easier to identify tasks that can be done easily but need to be done. Often those little tasks if you procrastinate make the completion of everything else a misery. Lots of people include things on their to do list that are already done. Big project with 18 things — you have done 3 already. List them all and then cross off those 3 and start in on the next one you have bandwidth to tackle.

    8. BoredRecruiter*

      Thanks for posting. My job has reduced down to about 90% of my time being cold emails to potential candidates (I’m an internal recruiter in a niche field), so there are no to-do items to mark off a list. I’ll try seeing if I can break records, but I’m not motivated by that sort of thing (nor do I find it particularly helpful since I try to customize/individualize my emails as much as possible, and trying for a higher volume means less customization time).

      2. Iris Eyes*

        Could you track different types of customization and their success rates? When including X in subject line Y responded positively Z responded negatively K no response.

        Other results tracking or metric creation that might have some marginal value but still give you something to measure may be helpful. Also might help you determine if some of the customization is really just a way for you to draw out your process/keep from being as board when a more boiler plate option may actually be more effective.

    9. RecoveringSWO*

      1) Prioritizing tasks based on your most productive time of day. I’m most productive in the morning (I joke that my procrastinating tendencies don’t wake up until later) so I save tasks that are more important or require more concentration for first thing in the morning. For me that usually means I’m researching or doing template c/p style writing in the late afternoon (with some distraction) and writing actual product or preparing presentations in the mornings.

      2) I put my cell phone away and don’t let myself check e-mails until I’ve finished a task (or am at a good stopping point). For me, the Pomodoro method doesn’t work because the timer stops my productivity and then I’m not motivated to restart working on time. I recognize that my working style works better with periods of more intense focus then relaxed work, instead of consistent focus all day. So I let myself go down the “rabbit hole” on prioritized tasks and adjust accordingly. YMMV, I’m not often interrupted by phone calls and my boss doesn’t require instant email replies.

      3) I have one trick that’s worked for tasks I hate (particularly larger projects with far out due dates). Set a timer for 5-10min and convince yourself to work on that project with the only requirement being that you work until the timer goes off. It’s less of a hurdle to start the project, because I know I can do 5 minutes no matter how much I hate it. However, 8/10 times I don’t stop after 5-10min because I’ve built some momentum on the project. It’s also not as distracting to me as the Pomodoro timer, because the start of the project is fresh in my mind. A professor introduced me to this strategy and it was really helpful for essays and outlining.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        The making myself do 5 to 10 minutes might help on scheduling these visits which I haven’t done for months.

    10. Sheffy4*

      I totally feel you – I go through phases of this, and here are a few things that I try, and usually one or a combination of them work to get me going again:
      – Change of environment – I take my work into a meeting room, or even the break room for an hour or so. This works particularly well when I have to read and concentrate, because then I’m away from my computer and distracting emails/internet.

      – Pretending I am leaving early and have to get all my critical work done before lunch (sort of make it a game/race to get things done, another commenter suggested making it a game too)

      – Scheduling out all my daily tasks by the minute, so I know I only have to work on X until 9:30, and then I get to shift gears and work on Y until 10:15. I challenge myself to stick to the schedule and get things done within the allotted time – if it’s not done I move on anyway and make time to come back to it later (unless of course it’s truly critical)

      – Schedule 30 minutes before or after lunch to read motivating professional development books. Sort of refreshes me and gets me into the zone.

      – Going for short walks once or twice a day (outside!). It’s a nice break while transitioning between tasks, and prevents me from reflexively reaching for my phone as my “break”, which can often turn into extended scrolling / spacing out time.

      – Imagining some character that I feel would be more productive then me, and making a fun game of asking, “What would they do?” For instance, I’m a Parks and Rec fan, so sometimes I’ll think, “What would Leslie Knope get this done?” or “How would Chris Traeger handle this?” Or for a fun alternative, Dwayne Johnson, or the badass character Dalton from the movie Roadhouse.

      1. Collette*

        This is a really great insight. I figured this out recently myself. When that happens, I take some time to figure out what I need to know that I don’t already know and then I go looking for that information.

        When I am procrastinating because I feel unsure about a piece of work I will also break it down into all of its parts and determine what part will help me feel more comfortable about the project if I do it first.

    12. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      I just realized that a whole month has gone by and I’ve done next to nothing. I was going to quit so I put everything off. .

  20. Finally Finished*

    resume question: After a 15 year break, I finally went and finished my college education. As this should have an impact on applying for future positions, I’ve got a few questions on how to correctly add this to my resume.
    1. Dates: do I use the the first chunk of dates that I attended with a completed year separated. Example: attended 2000 – 2004; completed 2019
    2. During my break, the school that I attended changed from a college to a university. My diploma states Teapot University. Do I need to mention that when I started it was Teapot College now Teapot University?
    3. When I returned, my major was no longer available. I needed only about 11 credits to complete a degree, so my advisor suggested not declaring a new major. Do I just list my major as General Studies? My diploma just states Bachelor of Arts.

    1. Ptarmigan*

      I have a similar situation, except over several colleges, and I just put the one I graduated for and the year I graduated, e.g.,

      Spectral College of the Desert, B.S. Teapot Science, 2010

    2. Tiny Magnolia*

      I’d do this:

      :::EDUCATION:::
      Teapot University
      Bachelor of Arts, 2019

      You’re a grown person and you don’t need to list your major, just a degree.

      2. Middle Manager*

        For some jobs it might not matter, but there are jobs in my organization that require a particular major and you have to document that you took one of the required majors, so I wouldn’t universally take it off.

        1. irene adler*

          Won’t the job description indicate this?

          Or, will the HR folks inquire?

          Or would this be an automatic ‘no’ without listing the major?

          1. Middle Manager*

            The job description would note it. If it wasn’t on your resume/app, you wouldn’t make it past the initial HR screening for any hiring manager ever making it ask the question. It might be a niche situation. Just saying, I don’t think it’s universally true that you shouldn’t list your major on your resume.

            I’m in state government for reference. It’s all very rigid in the hiring process.

      3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Interesting. What’s the benefit of not listing your major?

        I can see the benefit of not listing the year, which isn’t really relevant and could be used in age discrimination.

        1. Sunflower Sea Star*

          You would list what your degree was in, but not necessarily other majors you may have had along the way.

        2. Fabulous*

          If you’re working in a field where it would draw more questions than strengthen your profile; e.g. if it’s irrelevant to whatever job industry you’re in. For example, if you were a drama major working in sales, or a philosophy major working in IT.

      4. Automated*

        Disagree. Leaving this off sounds like you are trying to hide your degree. Its not your major anymore – its your degree when you complete the requirements.

        B.S. Biology 2019 is the way to list.

    3. Ali G*

      Congratulations on the accomplishment!
      I’m no expert, but this is what i think:
      1. Just use the date you completed – that’s the only thing that matters in terms of verifying you have a degree
      2. Nope! You have a degree from Teapots University, doesn’t matter what it was 10 years ago
      3. Unless I am mistaken, General Studies sounds a lot like a non-specific Bachelor of Arts and since that is what is on your diploma, put that. You can add “Focus: General Studies” if you want. I do this because I have a Bachelor of Arts in Biology, but most of the classes I took were in environmental science, ecology and natural sciences. So I put “Focus: Environmental Science”

    4. periwinkle*

      I finished my bachelor’s after a 22-year break! The only date I list is the graduation year, and the field is Liberal Arts because I didn’t have a major.

      “Teapot University, BA in General Studies, 2019” is fine.

    5. irene adler*

      My take:
      #1 Depending on how old you are, there is a reality known as age discrimination. Employers are keen to figure out your age in any way they can. A useful figure is college graduation year. So stack the odds in your favor and simply list the date of graduation(2019). Let them figure out- later on- that you ain’t 22.

      So what if there’s been a gap between start and finish of your degree. Don’t muddy things up. As an employer, I want to know what skills you possess, or what you can do for me. The gap doesn’t help me there.
      During the interview, you can talk about your experience and educational journey – if they ask.

      #2- no. Why muddy things up-even more- by adding the College V. University thing? How does that help present you in your best light? Remember, the resume is “your best foot forward”. So stay with “University”-it’s on the diploma-yes?

      #3- might ask the university what to put- or why they didn’t indicate a major on your diploma.

      1. Glomarization, Esq.*

        I wholeheartedly agree with this comment. Mr. Glomarization finished his undergraduate degree after a multi-decade delay. The Education line on the resume says: “B.A., UniversityName.” Period, end of. The employers and other people looking at his credentials are looking for a completed degree, not so interested in the year or even the discipline.

      3. Anonymous for this, colleagues read here*

        The problem with leaving off the date is that sometimes we need to know it. For the search I am currently running, minimum requirement is 3 years past the master’s experience in central function of the job. If you don’t put a date, I can’t see how many years it’s been since you earned your degree = I can’t tell if your work experience is before, during, or after your graduate education = I cannot advance your application because I can’t tell if you meet the minimum requirement.

        I’d say to read the position description carefully. If it is clear we need to know in order to even consider you, include it.

        1. irene adler*

          How about if the resume indicates “6 years at position X” or “15+ years at current position” ?

    6. Not This Again*

      This is an interesting post to me personally, so following!

      I just put the year I graduated from university, not the years of attendance (going part-time while working full-time slowed me down, and I also took my time).

      I was able to do two minors, instead of a major, to graduate. I just list what my diploma says, something like Bachelor of General Studies or whatever.

      Also, I list what my diploma says for who awarded the diploma, which is the university, although when I started there, I entered through their college that had a part-time focus and they evolved over the decade I was there (yes, decade!).

      I don’t want to mislead anyone, but I did the work, graduated (with honors), and I’m happy to explain any further if it seems to matter. From my age and graduation date, it’s obvious I didn’t do the four-year-degree-right-out-of-high-school path.

      Interested to see what others think/do.

    7. Artemesia*

      You don’t want to list ‘general studies’ as at many places that is a degree for people who don’t meet some major requirements and it is low status. The fact of the degree is enough to include. There is a case for just listing graduation year or for doing it the way you suggested — think about how it plays out in your own history.

    8. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      Congratulations!
      I took a five-year hiatus myself between the time I started college and the time I graduated. On my resume, I just list it like others have mentioned: Major State University, BA, Teapot Painting. (It’s coming up on long enough ago that I stopped putting the year on my resume.)

      Where I DO have a problem is with online applications that require me to list the start and end dates of my college attendance. The accurate answer would be something like 1991-1995; 2001, but of course the applications don’t allow for that. So it looks like I went straight through for 10 years, which…doesn’t look impressive, and if the company verified the attendance dates with my school, they would quickly find out that I wasn’t there for all 10 of those years, so they’d think I was lying on the application. I actually have abandoned applications because of this – there’s really no way for me to be accurate.

    9. Symplicite*

      You don’t need to put your year on your resume for your education, regardless of the time lapse between start and finish.

      My resume has the following :

      Education and Professional Development:

      • Masters of TeaPot Studies – University of BigCity
      • Honours B.A. Teapot Construction – UniversityName University
      • Courses sponsored by TeaPot Manufacturing institution:
      o TeaPot Design and Management (spout methodology)

      If you have taken any courses in professional development that will assist you in your job search, put them on your resume.

  21. New Screen Name*

    I feel so self-conscious about posting this so high in the thread! It’s legit just a rant…

    I attended a professional industry-specific event last week. Overall, it was great.

    There were speakers/presenters, networking, booths, etc.

    One of the booths out of the many, many good ones, was for some seen-on-tv crap product. Literally, I didn’t know why there were there. My industry has NOTHING to do that. Like, AT ALL.

    So anyway I ask, “What does this have to do with teapots?” and they’re like, “Nothing, it’s a wart remover” (obviously paraphrasing).

    And then the other person in the booth freaking CAT-CALLS ME! AT A PROFESSIONAL EVENT! INSIDE! WHAT THE $*&$!?!?

    So I just give him a dirty look and walk away but it honestly really affected me! You go to those events and spend a bunch of money and expect a certain experience and then someone who is not just an attendee (all of whom were perfectly respectful) but a vendor goes and pulls that?!

    I ended up writing an anonymous email to the people who put on the event because I just felt like… they really shouldn’t have been there anyway. Maybe they felt like they could act however they wanted because it wasn’t their industry so they had no reputation to uphold. I don’t know.

    1. WellRed*

      At our big industry tradeshow they had a couple of “stretch” exhibitors (to fill space quota, I assume), but they’ve pulled back on that, I think due to attendee comments (no catcalling though).

    2. Notthemomma*

      I’ve been to events where everyone is focused on llama halters and then BAM! In the middle is a booth for say, furnace filters. They either didn’t know the type of event they signed up for or thought by being different it would generate sales. The fault, I believe lies with the organizers for allowing a ‘off-topic’ vendor in. I would say you are 1000% correct in sending an email.

      1. Ama*

        Yeah, if they’d been professional maybe you let it go (although if I knew someone with the organizing company I might politely ask “hey, why was [company] here, their product didn’t seem very relevant”) but being horrible to attendees is something that should always be reported.

        It’s also possible that they exaggerated their relevance to the event in order to get approved (we’ve had vendors try to do that for our events, but we’re such a niche area that it is easy to check), in which case flagging them to the organizers is a good idea.

      2. Amy Sly*

        At the comic and pop culture conventions I’ve attended, you can always tell the companies who just put up a booth at anything and everything without the least bit of thought. Seriously booth dude, I’m sorry your company is paying you to try to sell gutter protectors or newspaper subscriptions to stormtroopers and Klingons …

    3. Pam*

      I would send an actual email, not an anonymous one, and cc your boss or whoever sent you to the meeting. Even if the vendor wasn’t an issue, the behavior was.

    4. CM*

      If you remember what company was running the booth, I would actually contact them. It’s usually not free for them to exhibit, and they probably invested in this in hopes of connecting with people who hadn’t heard of them before. Tell them it was neat to see them there but unfortunately your first impression of the company was this guy cat-calling you.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      Honestly, every event I’ve attended has those booths – the ones selling jewelry or magic cream or whatever. I didn’t realize there were events that *didn’t* have them.

    6. pcake*

      Why just give him a dirty look? I would have said something coldly but courteously as well as asking his name and the name of his supervisor.

  22. I shall return anon*

    Up front: I’m a manager of a small department with an employer of fewer than 100 people in an at-will state in a non-unionized position. My employer recently sent out a new employee handbook filled with some significant changes like increasing the work week from 35 to 37.5 hours (meaning shorter lunches), reducing sick days, and so on.
    When a couple of us expressed concern about the policy changes, we were told not to worry about it, we’re taking the policy too literally. No one tracks our lunches, so go ahead and take an hour, don’t worry about sick days, just take a vacation day if you’re sick. Other departments make up their own rules, so your department should too.
    The staff in my department have interpreted this as “we should write our own handbook, superseding the organization’s handbook” with policies that are looser than the organization’s, such as creating an additional number of days that people can stay home.
    Two questions: 1) who’s involved in the setting of a departmental policy like this? Just managers? Staff and managers? 2) It’s one thing for a manager to off-the-cuff say, “Go ahead and work at home today” or “take another day off, no need to count it as a vacation day, your aunt just died” and another for a manager to set a policy that explicitly grants more time off. Couldn’t setting a departmental policy like this put me in a tricky situation?

    1. WellRed*

      The answer is, it’s dependent on your company. We have an official handbook, but are definitely managed by the managers on things like, “Let’s cut out early today, it’s Friday)” or whatever.
      I’d be a little more concerned about the change in hours. Will that send anyone below minimum wage or have any other repercussions? Have you asked what the reasoning is behind the new handbook?
      And no, your staff should not write their own handbook. That’s kind of a childish reaction.

      1. I shall return anon*

        Right, the in-the-moment decisions like cutting out early make sense within my authority. I’ve always done that and feel comfortable and making those decisions.

        No one is going to get a direct pay cut from this – we’re all exempt. It’s only a pay cut in the “in theory, my expected work week is now 37.5 hours instead of 35” sense, though the half-hour lunch is something I probably wasn’t going to enforce anyway. We all tailor our days to the tasks that need to be done: sometimes I eat at my desk with an ear open for questions, sometimes I take an actual lunch and leave the building, and my staff do the same.

        I’m feeling like my employer’s HR department has just passed the buck of being an HR manager down to me with the idea of writing a joint departmental handbook.

    2. Aquawoman*

      Yeah, wow, shut that down.

      Also, I’m a lawyer, so “taking the policy too literally” leaves a keyboard print in my forehead.

      1. Middle Manager*

        I work in a policy office. I also face plant at this.

        Don’t make a policy then. Maybe suggested guidance to managers would be more appropriate if they don’t intend people to follow it literally?

        1. I shall return anon*

          I’m also concerned that if anyone within the hierarchy from the head of the organization to the HR director to me were to leave, the next person could come in and say, “What’s this nonsense? We have a staff handbook. Those are the rules to follow.” If there’s something written down and, in theory, approved by HR, then they’d have something to point to. The whole thing is just nutty.

    3. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      My experience at work, is that those “We have a policy on the books, but generally don’t enforce it” is often the grounds they use to get rid of people for cause.

      Oh, Joe is 55 and costing our health insurance too much, so we’ll can him for taking more than 30 minutes for lunch which is theft-of-time. Or Suzie has small kids and used up all her sick days, we’re tired of her lack of availability and dependents on the insurance, let’s write her up and fire her next time she calls out sick.

      1. I shall return anon*

        Exactly, That Girl From Quinn’s House. I don’t think my employer is quite that bad yet, but the whole point of following the handbook is to protect both sides, I would think.

      2. CM*

        Yeah, to me it reads as a way for an executive to build a trap door to use in case of emergency. The policy isn’t really X — the policy is that Jerry can change his mind about what the policy is at any given moment, depending how he feels, and point to evidence that you were warned. This policy sounds like “Continue leaving at your usual time, but Jerry reserves the right to punish you for it if you fall out of favour.”

    4. Orange You Glad*

      As others have said, it depends on your organization.
      Generally company-wide policies are written loosely so individual department heads can set their own more strict guidelines (example: company policy is 15 days PTO; department has more rigid policy that you need to request off a week in advance or can’t take off more than x days in a row without manager approval, etc).
      I think it’s fair for you to give your team some extra perks (like longer lunches or an extra sick day off the books) but I don’t think they are telling you to write a new policy that supersedes company policy. If your staff is high performing, I would just continue as usual.

      1. I shall return anon*

        Right – the idea is that a department might have a more rigid policy, not a generally more lenient one. In some ways, if I set any kind of policy that “My department will get x more sick days a year and just not record them” then I’m pretty much cheating my employer out of time that is supposed to be worked. Now, when it’s a one-off or occasional thing, no biggie. But this feels much more dangerous to me.

    5. Pretty Fly for a WiFi*

      So here’s the problem… Once you start letting the rules slide for one, you’ll have to let them slide for all, or risk being accused of favoritism (not that bad) or discrimination (B-A-D). Therefore, yes, it’s tricky and incredibly risky to deviate from the policies that were implemented by (probably) HR, or an HR-like person. Another problem I see is that if one of your employees doesn’t like the way you’re being rigid with the policies, they can transfer to another less-rigid department, OR talk to your boss and “tell on you” for not being lenient, and then your boss goes and undermines your authority. All-in-all, not good. What I think must have happened (if not now, then at some point in the past) is that whoever wrote the policies told managers that they had *some* leeway in how to interpret or enforce *some* of the policies, so that if Jane’s mom had just died and she needed just one more bereavement day to put the affairs in order, then the manager would be able to grant a vacation day and Jane wouldn’t have to use a sick day (or whatever makes sense in your office). From the “managers can use their judgment on certain matters” talk, things went all loosey-goosey and you now have the mess that you’re describing.

    6. CM*

      It’s generally not fair to create a policy and then tap your nose to let people know it’s not real and they don’t have to follow it. You staff have the right idea in that they don’t seem to feel protected by a soft promise that this isn’t a real REAL policy change, and they want to see something written down.

      In a healthy, functional company, the higher-ups would make a policy that makes sense and that they believe in and expect everyone to follow. If you disagreed with the policy, you could have a discussion with them about it, in which they might be persuaded to change it. They would not say, “LOL ignore it if you want to; it only applies when I feel like it does!” And you wouldn’t make your own department policy that contradicts theirs. You would follow their policy, or try to persuade them to change it, and then maybe come up with some of your own rules just for your department that work within the existing policy.

      If I were you, I would be VERY VERY suspicious of the higher-ups right now. And, if you think this is a bad policy, I’d push back on it instead of trusting that it won’t really apply.

      1. I shall return anon*

        So the staff (and I) did push back for a real change to the policy. But the actual HR manager is saying, “eh, it doesn’t really apply, you guys are so uptight,” which has turned into the staff saying essentially, “well then, we’re free to make our own rules.”

        Obviously, I need to go back to HR and fix this. I just needed to be sure I wasn’t coming at this completely wrong.

  23. Lil*

    Has anyone had issues sleeping come with being unemployed?

    I just finished a program for web development and am now job searching. Since I became unemployed, I have had the hardest time falling asleep. I’ve even tried waking up early (5am) and working out for 30 minutes a day, but yet i still feel restless at night. I’m in a good position financially, so this unemployment is not weighing on me emotionally. I have close to no anxiety about it, so I know it can’t be that.

    The only thing I can think of that has changed, is that I’m no longer commuting or dealing with coworkers in an office all day (2 things that were definitely draining to me). In general, I’m much more sedentary. And I am still working on projects, so I’m still using mental energy, but of course not to the extent that I would be in a job.

    Has anyone else dealt with this? I’m at my wits’ end with only getting 5 hours of sleep a night, yet still not being tired enough to go to sleep at a reasonable time.

    1. Peacemaker*

      I find that a similar thing happens to me on days when I don’t work out in the morning, or when I’m on vacation and not keeping a normal rigorous schedule. I’ve come to believe that, on days like those, I’m just not as physically tired in the evening as I would normally be. Seems like my body thinks I still have some energy and shouldn’t be sleeping! Possibly something similar is happening with you? Maybe a solution is to get out and get some exercise, go for a long walk, or find opportunities to volunteer.

    2. Blueberry*

      I did both times I was unemployed, and it definitely had to do with being sedentary, and also anxiety because of no cashflow. I tried to make myself take a walk every day and to do more physical tasks around the house, but I have to admit it remained a struggle (not least since I was bad about the walks when the weather wasn’t good). I wish you luck and sweet dreams!

    3. HONK*

      It could totally be that you have too much energy to burn right now, and maybe getting out more (like, fake-commuting to a coffee shop, or a library, or a nice picnic) would help tire you out. Time will probably help out too, if you can stick to a routine while you job-hunt. Personally, I’m such a creature of habit that even the slightest change in my life can throw my sleeping patterns out of whack and cause issues sleeping until I adapt. A sudden lack of structure in my life would definitely do that!

      In the meantime, I do recommend lavender herbal tea. Your mileage may vary but it really helps me.

    4. Nicki Name*

      Get some daily physical exercise. It doesn’t have to be Real Exercise with a machine or anything, just walk to the local park and back if you want. 3-6 hours before bedtime is supposedly the ideal time to help you with your sleep cycle.

      And, as others have said, keeping to a routine is likely to help a lot.

    5. JustMyImagination*

      Are you tired in the morning? It’s possible with less activity your body just doesn’t need as much recovery time at night.

    6. RestlessSeeker*

      This is my story as well! I’m fortunate enough to not worry about paying for necessities while searching but I am feeling a general sort of anxiety at not being employed. After doing a lot of reading and ted talk watching, I think it’s due to how much of my self identity I get from my job. Also, if you’re in the States we are more job centric than some countries so maybe there is an underlying sense of missing that anchor thats weighing on your subconscious? My only advice is try creating a routine, and actually scheduling everything in a calendar so that it feels like a ‘productive’ day at the end of it. Sweet Dreams!!

    7. anony*

      Have you considered that you’re putting too much pressure on yourself to maintain a “regular” schedule and that might be leading to difficulty sleeping?

    8. SciProf*

      Not unemployment specific, but I definitely notice a difference in how much sleep I need depending on what I’m doing. If I’m doing lots of mentally intensive work, I need 30-60 more minutes of sleep a night than my normal. If I’m on vacation and not doing much mentally, I need less than my normal. I’d totally believe that kind of change could be just that you’re not doing as much draining tasks.

    9. lemon*

      I’ve noticed that any time I’m away from work (vacation, between jobs, or when I was a full-time student), my sleep schedule is impacted. It’s similar to what you describe– I get restless at night, and don’t fall asleep until 4 or 5 in the morning, and don’t really feel tired around normal bedtime (10-11pm-ish). I always thought that it was because I wasn’t being disciplined enough about my schedule, or just bad sleep habits.

      But apparently delayed sleep phase syndrome is a thing (that I just learned about). Basically, your circadian rhythms are off, so you don’t feel tired at socially-acceptable times. That could mean getting sleepy late at night, or earlier in the day. People tend to notice it when they don’t have to stick to a regular 9-5 schedule. Might be what’s going on?

      1. HamburgerHelper*

        You could also try light therapy. It definitely helps me feel more energized in the am and fall asleep in the evening.

  24. KitCat*

    How do I become perceived as more professional at work? I’m a recent college grad looking to move up soon into a higher paying and more public-facing position at a university. I feel I am perceived as young and a bit emotional

    1. Dust Bunny*

      I think we need more information here. What’s the context? Why do you think you’re perceived as young and a bit emotional?

      1. KitCat*

        I think some of the other commenters got to my concerns about maturity more than youth. I worry that if I like chilling in cubicle with my shoes off and feet curled up, that I don’t have a lot of money for a great wardrobe — it looks like I can’t take on more than my admin assistant role in the office.

        On the emotional side, I did struggle early on with feedback and definitely cried on a few occasions. I feel that I have done a lot to have a better hold on my emotions, but worry that my past behavior may lead the selection committee (who are my current coworkers) to doubt my ability to stay level headed in the next job with a lot of face to face with external partners.

        And part of the reason I had so much trouble with my initial transition into my current role is related to being autistic. I still struggle with emotional regulation and boundaries with coworkers, so anything I can learn about the dos/do nots of how to look professional help -a lot- because it’s not something that comes to me naturally.

        1. Sheffy4*

          In response to your comment about sitting with your feet curled up with shoes off, yeah I think that could be perceived as a lack of professionalism. I had a colleague who would wrap herself in a blanket at her desk, and decorated her desk with all these cozy things that you would have in your living room, and I found it to be a little unprofessional. You don’t really look engaged or ready to take on a project if it looks like you’re “too comfortable” if that makes sense.

          Wardrobe – as long as what you wear is clean and pressed, in good condition (no damage, holes, stains), and matches the general “uniform” of what others at your level are wearing, then it should not matter what brand or how much it was. I really recommend ironing or steaming all the wrinkles out of your professional clothes before each wear. So many people skip ironing and think the hot dryer does good enough at getting most of the wrinkles out, but in my experience I feel like my clothes look 100% better when I take the time to iron them. Also, check the care instructions on your clothes, because sometimes air dry is a lot better and will make your clothes last longer.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Re: blanket
            If your office temps drop to ridiculously cold (hello 64° in a corporate building in AUGUST), a blanket is a better solution than breaking the rule against space heaters.

            1. KitCat*

              Our office actually allows space heaters on the downlow haha. So that’s not a bit concern. But I do have to wrestle with the too comfy look — in my current job I do a lot of work with data so I like to be nice and cozy to try to enjoy, but I get that I’m also in a cubicle and am visible.

          2. Diahann Carroll*

            I really recommend ironing or steaming all the wrinkles out of your professional clothes before each wear.

            This. Visible wrinkles kill an entire look – they make the wearer look sloppy and careless. You don’t want people to have that perception of you in the workplace, especially as a fresh grad with little professional experience to fall back on.

        2. Aspie AF*

          From one autistic person to another, “professionalism” can be super vague, and it’s often super arbitrary. I find that the places I’ve worked that had the hardest time with me being “professional” were also the worse in terms of accommodation – stuck on the status quo, really bad at providing feedback, letting others get away with things I was chastized for, etc. I took a job that I was well-qualified for a couple of years ago, but they were inflexible to the point that they didn’t even understand that my request to wear headphones wasn’t something they could deny out of hand. I cried during many one-on-one meetings with my supervisor, and while you and I both know that’s not going to make us look good, the circumstances that lead to that were not my fault and not in my control. I’m much happier having left that company for one that offered me more flexibility.

          Sometimes there are things we can change – keep your shoes on and don’t put your feet up, for instance, but sometimes it’s the environment. I would suggest a couple of things, based on what you’ve told us…

          1. Look for ways to manage your anxiety and sensory needs. I find that the higher my baseline anxiety level is, the harder emotional regulation is. If you don’t already have a sensory diet, do some research on it to see what would help you.
          2. Look for accommodations. The Job Accommodation Network website is a great source for possible accommodations, even if you’re not American – I would suggest looking there for autism and any comorbidities (e.g. anxiety, ADHD, OCD, PTSD). Sometimes suggested things are available for everyone – like being able to work from home – but sometimes they’re not reasonable for your role (flexible start times might not be an option if you have public hours).

          I am in a Facebook group called Autistic Women and would recommend it for specific questions – it can be really hard for neurotypical people to understand our circumstances.

    2. ThatGirl*

      You are young; what you want to project is maturity. You can’t change your age.

      What do you mean by “a bit emotional”? If you feel you get flustered or angry easily, that’s something to work on – but you simply having emotions isn’t a problem. A lot of these skills come with time, but I would focus on knowing the right questions to ask, taking feedback graciously and improving communication skills.

    3. Leigh*

      I had this issue my first 1-1.5 years at work. One of the biggest pieces of advice I got, was to dress like I’m 30, not 22. I’m petite and look young so high heels are a non-negotiable. Between that, slowly building an adult work wardrobe and rent the runway unlimited – it worked. I even had someone comment in my performance review about how professional, polished, and client-ready I dress. I don’t know the specifics of your job or university roles, but if you want to be public facing, wardrobe and general presentation make a huge different.

      I still struggle at controlling my emotions sometimes, but it’s gotten better with age. Things that would have driven me to tears at 22 don’t phase me now that I’m closer to 30 than 20.

    4. HONK*

      Being perceived as young is totally ok, unless people are discriminating against you based on age alone. Like ThatGirl said, you can’t change that: I’m actually a couple years into my career and I’m still, by far, the youngest person in my department and one of the youngest in the whole org, and people know it. You can tell by my face!

      I do good work and am well-liked by my colleagues however, so it’s usually not negative. It can even be helpful – people take the time to explain me stuff about the history of the institution and office politics that I couldn’t possibly know yet.

      The emotional bit is what you can work on. Projecting professionalism is indeed a lot about keeping your display of emotion within a certain range (and wardrobe, but that you’ll pick up through observation). Yeah, it’s a little arbitrary, and it can be tiring, but it’s necessary because people are at work to work, and having to perform a lot of emotional labor around their coworkers distracts from that. There are many posts on this side on the subject, but basically it’s all about staying reasonably pleasant with your coworkers even when you’re annoyed or angry at them, not openly moping when you’re sad, and taking criticism gracefully.

      For me professionalism is all about focusing on the work itself . The work needs to be good; if what I do is subpar, I need to be told so that I can make it better.

    5. LKW*

      Things that will potentially make you seem less experienced and less professional:

      1. Look at the “uniform” of those around you – are you dressed a lot more fashion forward or trendy? I’m not saying you need to go to Brooks Brothers or Chicos but if most of your coworkers wear button downs and chinos – showing up in a metallic pleather mini skirt and a crop top will stand out.
      2. Do you uptalk? Or talk with vocal fry? If so – practice stopping that – at least in the office.
      3. Do you show a lot of emotion at work and is it appropriate for the circumstance? Do you roll your eyes when you hear something you don’t like? Or frown visibly when getting a critique (or cry or act defensively)?
      4. Have you ever used the term “It’s not fair” at work? Exception is when you’re bitching about something that everyone believes is not fair.
      5. Do you use a lot of vocal pauses like “You know” or “Right” or “Like” or even a very frequent “um”? This is not limited to young people – but it can be really distracting and make you look like you don’t know how to gather your thoughts or speak confidently about a topic.

      1. Amy Sly*

        Others to add in the list of possible unprofessional behaviors — how’s your posture? There’s a wonderful book called “How to Say It For Women” with a whole chapter on body language commonly used by women that makes them look weak and subordinate vs. less common “power body language.” These were things like sitting up straight and looking your conversation partner levelly in the eye (which says “I’m your peer”) instead of slouching and looking up (which says “I’m your inferior”). You belong at your job! Don’t let your body language say “I’m so not worthy to be here that I’m going to shrink myself down so you don’t even notice me.”
        How’s the fit of your clothes? Not only should your clothing be of a style and quality comparable to those around you, but it also needs to fit correctly. This is a royal pain in the butt and may require lots of “it’s just a number on a label” self-talk at times. Go to a real bra shop (hint: if the store doesn’t have bigger than DD, odds are good the salespeople won’t really know what they’re doing) and get properly fitted. (Prepare for a $60+ price tag) Waists shouldn’t cause you belly to muffin top over the sides. Shoulder seams should be at your shoulders. Buttons should never gape. Shoes should never hurt, whether from blisters or high heels.

      2. Respectful Counterpoint*

        I’d like to respectfully comment that, KitCat, if this list of suggestions rings true to you and you find it helpful, that’s great. But, I would also like to point out that, aside from adjustments re: youthful clothing or emotion regulation, older people do all those other things all the time. Bill Clinton talks almost exclusively in vocal fry, for instance. It’s totally fine to speak up if something isn’t fair — e.g., “I don’t think it would be fair to Jane to ask her to work that day,” etc. You don’t have to police your speech for filler works like ums, uhs, likes, etc. — if you have someone you trust at work who’s a little older than you, you could ask about speech habits if that’s a concern for you, but don’t feel like you have to censor your speech uncomfortably.

    6. Stornry*

      People will always have their preconceptions, the only thing you can do is challenge them. First, take the dress code and bump it up just a notch — not so much that you don’t fit in, but just enough that it says “work/professional” and not “student”. Next, keep the interactions business-like — it’s good to make friends and be friendly but keep those professional boundaries like Allison talks about. Third, be realistic about what you can do, what you do know, and what you still need to learn — too many “kids” think they know more than they actually do while “grown-ups” know they need to keep learning.

      The way to be seen as mature is to demonstrate it. If you find yourself getting emotional over something (it does happen to all of us) ask to be excused for a moment and endeavor to pull it back together. You can do it – have faith in yourself. Good Luck!

    7. Library Land*

      Being a recent grad working at a university you will often be confused for a student. Don’t worry too much about that – it will go away as you age. I would lightheartedly say, nope, I’m not a student any more! and give a little laugh. Sometimes I would just let it go completely because it didn’t make a difference if they knew I was staff, not a student.

      In public facing jobs in academia you will always have persons who think less of you because you are younger (or because you’re not a tenured professor or because your socks are blue), will give you a hard time, or think you don’t know anything. Try to let it roll off your back. Donors and professors bring a lot of money to a university and will almost always trump you (unless they’re harassing you – report that asap) no matter how wrong or off base they actually are. After it happens a couple of times it will become pretty funny.

      And ultimately remember that academia is just weird. There’s great advice on this blog that simply won’t work in academia. The larger the university the more so this applies. Good luck!

    8. Chaordic One*

      I hope you don’t interpret the remarks from LKW as being too personal, but she’s on target with her advice about behavior. The recommendations about wardrobe are generally on target, too. I work in a “business casual” environment which is kind of a slippery slope wardrobe-wise.

      If you wear jeans make sure they fit comfortably, but that they’re not too baggy either, and that they are not faded or worn-out. The ripped-jean look isn’t usually considered very professional so I would avoid it.

      Pay attention to footwear. I don’t think you need to necessarily wear “high heels.” Petite women wearing shoes with heels so high that they are difficult to walk in do not project a professional image and come off as being overly self-consci0us about their height. A dressy leather shoe or boot looks more professional than sneakers or sandals and there are plenty of nice low- and medium-heeled shoes to consider.

      Finally, I really do think that a nice blazer over top of anything adds a bit of professionalism and authority to one’s appearance.

  25. Diahann Carroll*

    Awkward moments at work this week:

    * Coworker and my only other direct colleague (it’s just me, her, and our boss on this little team inside of a longer team) told me yesterday that she’s saving her vacation time because she only gets 10 days accrued a year and she used up all of the prorated time off she received last year on personal matters (we both started a month apart in the middle of the year). I have 15 days a year, our unused time rolls over, so I’m sitting on a week of vacation. She’s been in this job field for 13 years – I can’t believe she didn’t negotiate for more time off. Well, okay, maybe I can a bit – I didn’t negotiate time off at my last company either and ended up with only 10 days and no rollover. I just totally blanked on that part as I was too busy negotiating my salary up out of the basement.

    * Great Boss confirmed sometime next year he’ll be leaving us to go work in another department. I’m bummed not only because he and I work wonderfully together, but also because my coworker mentioned above may be slotted into his role – I will not work for that woman. She’s hella negative all the time about everything, and I can’t deal with that, not even remotely (I work from home full-time). So now I have to tell boss that in the event he’s already doing succession planning with her in mind.

    1. ThatGirl*

      I hear you on the PTO, I had 18 at my last company so I negotiated 15 at this job (we also have separate sick time so it works out) and when I hear my coworkers complain about their 10 days I both feel a little guilty and wonder why nobody negotiated that.

      1. Sheffy4*

        I had no idea that negotiating for time off was a thing you could do. The places I’ve worked gave everyone the same based on the policy, and your allocated days would increase the more years you worked.

        1. Andytron*

          It depends. When I interviewed at Big Corp they were firm that they couldn’t adjust the vacation time offered. When I accepted a job at Startup Co I was able to get an extra week. In my case I had gotten so used to the amount of vacation I accumulated at Old Job that I was far more interested in negotiating PTO than salary.

        2. ThatGirl*

          I didn’t before I started reading AAM, but I actually barely did any negotiating. The HR rep asked how much I’d had before and said vacation time was one of the easiest things to increase.

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        I felt soooo guilty. I just sat there and nodded without offering any input because I couldn’t lie and say I agreed with her about the time off policy (she was saying how it was crap and that the company should switch to a combined PTO bucket because we have 10 separate sick days that she’ll never use – with a combines bucket, she’d have 20 days each year to do whatever she wanted with them) – I was able to take almost two weeks off around the Christmas and New Years holidays and I still have a week left as of this month. I don’t have an issue with anything benefit-wise at this company. (We also get two paid personal days in addition to our vacation and sick days.)

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      A lot of us don’t negotiate time off, because we’ve only worked at places where time off isn’t negotiable. They tell us the policy for sick, vacation, when you get more, whether it rolls over, and it’s part of a take it or leave it. So why would she know to negotiate?

      And that’s why it’s so unfair – people lose out because they don’t know what they don’t know, and compensation can be based on that. That, and when the ONLY time you use negotiation skills is when getting a new job, and you lose out because you’re not good at that non-practiced skill.

      So yeah, I can believe it easily, and it’s on your boss to make things more fair, not on the person coming in from the outside, who doesn’t know that the compensation plan actually isn’t written in stone.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        To your last point – I have to admit I was surprised grandboss hadn’t automatically given her 15 days since he so easily got HR to approve my vacation time increase (I started a month before her). She also said she took a massive pay cut to take this position, so I don’t know what the heck was happening here since I got a massive increase accepting my position (I was also hideously underpaid in prior roles for what I was doing).

    3. NACSACJACK*

      Last time I changed jobs, I went from 5 days vacation to 15 days PTO + 3 floating holidays + 10 days sick leave and $5K raise. I didnt want to negotiate. I was already getting more vacation and pay than I had ever seen before.

    4. CM*

      It’s an awkward situation bc your company’s ripping off your coworker, not bc your coworker did something wrong.

  26. De Minimis*

    Have a great opportunity next week that I’ve been working toward for years…an interview for a position at my previous federal organization in a city where I’ve always wanted to live. I’ve applied numerous times but this is the first time they’ve contacted me for an interview. I feel my chances are good, except for one thing.

    They want a presentation at the beginning about who I am, why I’m interested in the job and how my previous experiences have prepared me for it, what I look forward to about the position, what I see as the challenges of it, and how it fits with my professional goals. They don’t specify a format, only saying that I should use “whatever format you’re comfortable with.” This will be in addition to the regular interview questions which will follow the presentation, which is supposed to last 10-12 minutes. They specified that they don’t intend for this to be any kind of technical presentation.

    I was unsure how to proceed about this, my wife says I should create a PowerPoint and I will probably defer to her because I think she may be right [also she is very good at creating presentations so she will be able to help.] I was going to originally just use it as an extended version of “tell me about yourself” and just talk about that for 10-12 minutes but I think my instinct is wrong about what they want. They said if I could not join by Skype that I should e-mail them the presentation, which leads me to think they are expecting something and it would be weird to just have me talking for 10-12 minutes with no visuals.

    Making things more complicated, since the interview is over Skype I will have to figure out how to do a presentation on that platform. But there’s plenty of time to figure it out since the interview is later next week. I have what I feel is a good story to tell in the presentation, but I’m not sure how to translate it to a PowerPoint format.

    Anyone else ever have to deal with this? I did see some questions in the archives where it was mentioned. This is a job where I could probably stay very happily until retirement, and I’d be so excited about the interview if not for this weird presentation thing.

    1. WellRed*

      I agree with your wife about doing PP, if only because I feel like people use that for everything but esp in gvt or similar. Since they’ve given you a few specifics to address in the presentation that also tie into (what they could have just asked about) a typical job interview, I’d focus on those. For exampled, on how your previous experience would help in new role: If the new role includes increasing employee participation in the hoedown, and you increased the number of volunteers participating the annual pie throwing contest, maybe a data graph showing the percentage increase (complete with “fun” photo from the pie throwing contest).

    2. ten-four*

      Okay, so good news: there’s a screen share option on Skype, so all you have to do is share your screen and walk through your slides. Send’em over ahead of time too. That part is easy!

      I think your instinct is right to use this a structured “tell me about yourself” answer – it’s basically your pitch, and they gave you the exact points they want you to cover: who you are, why you’re interested, how your experiences have prepared you for it, etc.

      Think about this as your chance to demonstrate competence and preparedness. Write your outline first, and frame your answers by centering the information they need from this, rather than getting stuck on describing yourself perfectly.

      Think of this piece of it as your practicum – you know how some jobs have you do an exercise to show how you’d do the work? This is that. Keep it tight and crisp, and practice a few times.

      And seriously, don’t be like the person I interviewed a week or two ago who told me they wanted the Director position I was interviewing for because they are planning on starting their own company in 3-5 years and want to learn all aspects of the business :P

      1. Person from the Resume*

        Skype allows you to upload a file/presentation and display it as a presentation.

        It is so much better than sharing your screen because it only shows the slides. So many people share their screens or a PP window but they have the powerpoint in normal/edit mode and not presentation mode which is what you want for a presentation.

        You can get to it from the same place where you would share select the share your screen option. Look for one to share a powerpoint file instead.

    3. Librarian of SHIELD*

      You can still use it as an extended answer to “tell me about yourself,” while having a presentation with visuals. You’ve got the list of questions they want answered in this presentation, so make a slide for each question with two or three bullet points listed. If you’ve got pictures of some of the experiences you plan to mention, add them. If not, look for relevant stock photos to make the presentation more visually appealing.

      But don’t fall into the trap of “The PowerPoint is my script, and I will now read it aloud to the audience.” Your bullet points are the basics, but your spoken presentation will expand on that in some small way.

      Good luck!

      1. De Minimis*

        Thanks everyone!
        We worked on a presentation this weekend and I’ve put together notes that will help me expand upon [rather than read] the points on the slides. I haven’t had to use PowerPoint in a long time, but that method used to work pretty well for me.

        I’m not sure of all the capabilities of whatever version of Skype I have on my home PC, but will be testing it out tonight.

  27. Quill*

    I know I promised it last week (and immediately got a project dropped on me after) but Fish Fry Kidnapping story will go here before the end of the day!

    1. Three owls in a trench coat*

      The title alone has grabbed my attention. Who was kidnapped? A person? A fish? Both??? We need answers!

    4. Quill*

      INTRODUCTION

      The thing you have to understand about charter schools is that while public education is wild, a publically funded charter or magnet school is wilder. Some of them are probably functional, but the ones that aren’t? They’re like black holes of zero boundaries, administrators whose ignorance and malice have bled together into a slurry of despair, despondency, and weird loopholes.

      My friend’s charter school was one of those: a hellmouth of incompetence, insidious backstabbing, and squirrels in the ventilation ducts.

      DRAMATIS PERSONAE:

      Agatha: Principal of the hellmouth, professional destroyer of boundaries, has made a crossroads deal to treat this 200 student school as her personal kingdom for at least twenty years.

      Jenny: Intrepid custodian, defeater of duct squirrels, my friend, the protagonist of this tale.

      Matilda: Jenny’s adult daughter, who used to attend this school and has stared too long into its abyss.

      Duct squirrels: squirrels trapped within the building’s many ancient ducts, begging for the sweet release of death.

      PRESENTING: THE FISH FRY KIDNAPPING, A NONFICTION TALE, WITH APOLOGIES TO ROALD DAHL AND THE DUCT SQUIRRELS

      Jenny, the head custodian of Hellmouth School, finished a long day in April in [year redacted], the end of a very long week involving the boiler, duct squirrels, 1 hour all hands staff meetings called by Agatha, and the usual amount of child puke, only to discover that her car would not start.

      By this time there were no other cars in the parking lot to jump her, so she called a tow truck, then her daughter Matilda, to notify her that she’d need a ride home from the nearest mechanic, and settled in to wait.

      The tow truck arrived, with the tow truck driver, and all was going well until approximately five seconds before Jenny was about to climb into the passenger seat for a ride to the mechanic, when Agatha came clacking out from the school building, disguised as a concerned boss.

      “Jenny, just what do you think you’re doing!!??”

      Jenny tells me she entertained a brief fantasy of jumping directly into the cab and telling the tow truck driver to gun it, but she didn’t.

      “My car won’t start, Agatha, we’ll have it out of the lot in no time.”

      Agatha proceeded to pitch a fit. “Don’t you know it’s dangerous to get in cars with strange men? Here, I’ll drive you.”

      “I’m sure it will be fine.”

      “I absolutely insist, Jenny! I am your boss! I will not allow you to get in this vehicle!”

      The only thing worse than a ride from Agatha would have been arguing in the parking lot with Agatha forever, so Jenny, sending the tow truck driver some serious ‘save me’ eyebrows, agreed.

      She wedged herself into Agatha’s trunchbull-mobile and they headed off, only to stop at a local grocery store.

      “I won’t be more than ten minutes,” said Agatha, “I just need to pick up a few things and it’s on the way.”

      Jenny waited thirty minutes for Agatha to finish picking out a cantaloupe and debated walking out into the damp and windy night. Then fifteen more because Agatha just *had* to talk to the owner. Then ten more as Agatha dug out expired coupons and tried three different cards.

      “I’ll just call Matilda, I wouldn’t want to inconvenience you,” Jenny lied through her teeth.

      “Oh nonsense! I said I’d take you to the mechanic, I’m taking you to the mechanic. You make it so hard for your friends to help you, Jenny.”

      Agatha, Jenny, and an overripe cantaloupe got back into the car.

      “Well,” said Agatha as the child locks engaged, “You know what sounds good? A fish fry. Just like old times! Now wouldn’t that be fun?”

      Now, Jenny had worked for Agatha for at least ten years at this point, long past the point where she remembered her former friendship with Agatha with any fondness, and while she’d long since accepted that Agatha’s brain was fifty percent self important arrogance, and fifty percent duct squirrels, somehow the next turn managed to surprise her.

      “The mechanic is west of here, Agatha, I think you missed our turn -”

      “Don’t be silly, we’re going to the fish fry! If we don’t make it there by five it won’t be fresh anymore. It will be my treat.”

      Jenny technically could have hopped out into traffic. She says she considered it, but ultimately they were doing forty five in a thirty five zone and she, unfortunately, had to go in to work on monday, where her ability to pay the bills depended on Agatha not firing her, and getting hit by a rusty coupe on the way to a fish fry sounded slightly less awful than being technically kidnapped in Agatha’s quest to pretend that they were still friends.

      Agatha dragged Jenny along to cut in line at the fish fry and Jenny got to listen to her chatter on about how childish and ungrateful certain school employees were, how Jenny ought to do something about her hair, and how Agatha’s friend was going on a cruise in June and Agatha was hoping to be invited along with her.

      All the while, Maltilda was texting her with approximately the following conversation.

      “Oh, wasn’t that so good? I couldn’t eat another bite! You see, I told you this would be fun!”

      “Can we please,” said Jenny as the old church ladies Agatha had shoved to get through to second helpings glared at them, “Please, please, go get my car?”

      “Well of course! You’re so impatient, Jenny.”

      At the cash-only register, Agatha performed a second whole-purse excavation, only to find that she had spent the last of her cash on the cantaloupe waiting patiently in her backseat.

      “What do you mean you don’t take card? It’s the twenty first century!” Agatha huffed at the unimpressed old man behind the register. “You know I run a school and -”

      “It’s okay, Agatha,” said Jenny, visibly fuming but unwilling to listen to whatever squirrel crap was going to come out of Agatha’s mouth about the school, her students or anything unrelated to getting the duck out of this fish fry and figuring out what was wrong with her car, “You can pay me back later, the line’s getting backed up behind us.”

      They emerged into the sudden dusk.

      “I’ll just drop you at home,” said Agatha, rooting through her deconstructed purse for her keys, “That mechanic’s on the north side and that’s not safe after dark -”

      At this point, Matilda drove up to save the day.

      “Hi, Mrs. Trunchbull!” she chirped as Jenny nearly teleported into the passenger seat, “I’ve gotta get my mom home right away, minor emergency, thanks so much!”

      She peeled out with the seatbelt alarm still dinging.

      1. Teacher Lady*

        I would be zero percent surprised if this was the charter school up the street from my old house.

      2. Mockingbird*

        Wow. Just … wow. Thanks for sharing! (she says, counting her blessings that she’s never had a boss like that.)

      3. Leslie Knope*

        I came back today so I could read the story! How frustrating!

        Not to the same level, but a similar situation happened to me and a friend once. My friend’s coworker was invited along on an outing, which was perfectly fine. We met at one person’s house who was on the way to the event and planned to carpool from there. The resident of that house offered to drive from there, but the coworker insisted she drive all 4 of us in her car.

        The event ran long and by the time we were leaving she announced she needed to go pick up her son from paintball. So she drives us 20 minutes out of the way to go get her 15-year-old son, only to offer his friend a ride home as well. There were already 3 passengers in the car plus her, so these two teenage boys had to squeeze into the backseat of a smallish sedan with 2 women (me and my friend) they didn’t know. They were sweaty and stinky from being outside playing paintball in 90 degree heat…they smelled pretty ripe.

        It was another 10 minutes to the extra kid’s house, another 20 minutes back to her house where she wanted to drop off her son before taking us back to our cars. By the time we got back to our cars we had been in her car for almost an extra HOUR.

        It was the most uncomfortable situation and the three of us felt like we had been kidnapped. We were furious to be put in that situation – the sweaty close quarters, the illegal aspect of having too many people in the car, the extra time added to the trip – plus the coworker’s constant chatter like everything happening was just SO FUN! I wanted to scream!

      4. Michelle*

        Oh. My. Goodness. I would have pretended to have a medical episode and asked for an ambulance. That sounds just awful.

  28. 1234*

    A few weeks ago, I posted about PROJECT and not knowing that my supervisor was laid off without my/our team’s knowledge.

    PROJECT concluded earlier this week and went well overall. However:

    – I didn’t know that the report for PROJECT was assigned to me until the very last minute when I got an email from the task management portal.
    – While a group of us were assigned this PROJECT, nobody was assigned specific roles and we all luckily wanted different roles.
    – We were not given adequate breaks during a 6-hour day because we had just enough people and needed constant coverage. Usually, Jane (old manager) would come and relieve each individual when they took breaks but no manager was on site, only the client.

    1. Mid*

      I’m glad that things worked out semi-well, though I’m still concerned about the communication at your company–or the lack of it. Do you have someone you can talk to about this? Who is managing you now?

      1. 1234*

        We have NO idea. We were given some information about PROJECT from Anna but she wasn’t formally introduced as our manager, and she didn’t have an email signature to determine who she is in the company. For some reason, both times that she emailed us, Liza’s signature was at the bottom even though the email clearly came from Anna’s email address?

        It would not be grandboss Liza because this would be a step below her pay grade.

        What I left out in the update was that other team members that I worked with also hadn’t received much communication from anyone at our company. I sensed that they didn’t know Mary no longer worked at the company.

  29. HailRobonia*

    I’ve got a phone interview today! I am super excited, and I just want to thank Alison and the Ask a Manager community for all the helpful advice I’ve gleaned!

    4. HailRobonia*

      Update: Just finished the phone interview, it went great and they are going to have me come in for an in-person interview next week!

  30. Rayray*

    I submitted some applications/resumes online last week. I haven’t heard back from any of the 4-5 I sent out. Should I call to follow up? I heard that advice all the time, but also hear that some hiring managers don’t like it. If I should follow up, what’s a good time frame for that?

    1. Hello It's Me*

      That’s a very very very very low number of applications. You should expect to hear back from 1-10%. Apply to more jobs. They will call you if they’re interested.

      1. rayray*

        Oh, I know that. I’m just getting started. I have a full time job already, and I’m still polishing my resume. Just getting started on the job hunt. I intend to apply for more, but there’s also a low number of jobs I am qualified for and interested in. I’m being a little picky too.

    2. TheSockMonkey*

      No. A week is too soon and also, it’s bad advice generally. Search the archives. I think Alison wrote about that one.

    3. ElizabethJane*

      No. Assuming you sent it through the correct way (applying on the company’s website, for example) they got it. There’s nothing to follow up on. They either are early in the process or they decided not to go with you, but following up won’t change anything.

      And if you didn’t apply through their standard process just do that.

      The only time I follow up is if I’m further along in the process and I’m several days outside of the mentioned timeline. As in, I’ve been in for an in person interview and we’re 14 days out when the hiring manager suggested I’d hear something in 3-4 days. Otherwise I just wait.

    4. Bruce*

      No, don’t follow up. They have your information, they will contact you if they are interested. A week is a very short amount of time- very well may not hear anything for several weeks, or perhaps never, as many businesses don’t respond at all unless they want to move you forward. Just keep moving forward with your job search at other places and hope for the best.

    6. londonedit*

      I know other people have said the same thing, but don’t follow up. You’ve already expressed your interest in the job by applying, and it’s very common for companies not to follow up with people unless they’re inviting them for an interview (which sucks, but it seems to be the way of the world now – most job adverts in my industry actually have a line at the end saying ‘Due to the large number of applications we receive, we regret that we are only able to contact successful applicants’). I always work on the assumption that I won’t hear back from job applications, and keep applying to anything that piques my interest.

      1. rayray*

        thanks everybody! I just hear both ways so often, but in all honesty, I do think I hear the “Call and follow up” advice from an older generation, and things have changed. I just thought I’d ask since this site always has more realistic advice.

    8. Lily in NYC*

      Honestly, you should never follow up unless you’ve already been communicating with them (meaning, they said they’d call you next week to set up a 2nd round interview – I’d think it’s ok to follow up after a couple of weeks if you haven’t heard anything).

    9. Person from the Resume*

      Don’t follow up on an application that got no response. Do not call and annoy people. The online application process is there so HM don’t have to stop in the middle of their workday to take phone calls and walk-ins. You have demonstrated your interest by applying. If they are interested you, they will contact you.

      If you were to follow up to an application that got no response a week would be WAY too early. But don’t do it. I just mean that it’s probably sitting a queue that no one has looked at yet and even if it was looked at they haven’t made decisions about who to interview. Your timeline expectation is way too short. The best advice is to submit and forget about it unless they contact you.

    10. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Every company and manager handles things their own way, but in general I think it’s probably best to assume you’re not going to be contacted until after the closing date for applications. So if the job notice says applications close on 1/31, assume that the hiring manager and/or HR will be sorting through those applications AFTER 1/31 and not before. Not having heard back the week after you applied is super normal. Just keep on applying to stuff and you’ll start getting calls eventually.

  31. Hello It's Me*

    I took a couple of courses on the Python language, and I feel like I understand it pretty well. I haven’t built anything yet though. I already have an advanced math background so I know all about logic and algorithms, so I feel like have a leg up. The advice I was given previously was that you have to learn front-end web development to get a Python job because you have to have a functioning website to show you know how to use the back-end.

    I don’t know if this is true though…

    What specific kinds of projects do I need to do to get a job in Python?

    1. blackcat*

      Python can be used for all sorts of stuff. What do you want to do? If you don’t want to do web development, I don’t see a reason to build your own website. You can post code to GitHub to show that you do, in fact, know how to code in Python. I have a GitHub with my teaching widgets that I wrote in python that go along with problem sets I’ve written (generally they’re minimally functioning code that students have to edit/expand). But that’s obviously because I’m a teacher.

    2. OperaArt*

      I’ve been programming in Python for years, and have never once used it for website development. The language is used in many different ways. We use it as a front end and support structure for scientific modeling codes. We also use it for pre- and post-processing.
      What kind of job do you want to have? That may give you ideas on how to prove your skills. Can you do some collaborative work on an open source project on GitHub?

      1. Hello It's Me*

        I just really enjoy creating and building systems. I enjoyed the math classes I took that are related to a lot of computer programming. I don’t care about the end goal as much as the work, which I think is why I’m struggling to figure out what projects I will need to make. I don’t know what jobs to get in Python and when I ask people for advice I feel like… people just get annoyed at me for being so ignorant. I don’t know what job I want to have. I don’t know what I need to know to get that job! I just think I would enjoy working in it.

        Is there anywhere I can go that just lists “OK to get a job in python, make these things”?

        1. blackcat*

          The thing is, there’s no such real thing as “get a job in python.” That’s not the way CS jobs work.
          There’s “Get a job in data processing in X field”
          There’s “Get a job making user interfaces for Y”
          There’s “Get a job maintaining a database where the data comes in through a python interface.”

          My husband has a job where, broadly, he does data analysis. Sometimes he uses python, but often he uses Java (WHY?!), C++, and occasionally FORTRAN (DOUBLE WHY!?). The theme of his job isn’t the particular language, it’s the type of work. He learns additional languages as needed.

          I use Python, MatLab, and Mathematica to teach students about physical and biological systems. I use those because they are provided by my institution or free and I know enough about them to make programs that run. Which one I use has to do with my particular student populations (when I’m teaching engineers, I skew to MatLab, because they are almost all taking a course where they use MatLab concurrently. Otherwise, I use Mathematica UNLESS there’s actually a lot of computation, then I switch to Python or a blend (Mathematica can script for Python)). So I have a job where I use Python, but it’s a small part of what I do. I think that can happen in other fields too.

          I think that might be the frustration that you’re sensing from people. There’s just no such thing as “A job in Python.”

          1. Hello It's Me*

            OK so… what kind of jobs would I be developing systems that don’t involve front-end web development?

            And I KNOW I am ignorant which is why I am asking for help.

            Who can I even ask to find out what kind of job is what I’m looking for?

            1. OperaArt*

              To learn what types of jobs are available, try going to some job boards and enter “python” in the search field. You‘ll see jobs in education, finance, science, engineering, auditing, front ends, back ends, and so on. They’re with start ups, the federal government, science labs, giant corporations, small non-profits, local government, universities, two-person shops.
              See if any of those look interesting. We might be able to answer your question better then. Your question is too broad right now for us to give good answers. Python is simply a tool, just as math is.

        2. silverpie*

          This is not necessarily about getting a job, but Project Euler (google/bing/duck it) has some good Math problems to write Simple programs for.

    3. Mrs_helm*

      As a programmer (in several languages other than Python) I feel safe to say:
      If you haven’t actually built anything with it, you don’t know it that well. Most languages have little ins/outs, quirks, or standardized ways of doing things. You learn those by building something that doesn’t work, googling the error, and finding the real way of doing it.

      1. Hello It's Me*

        Precisely that is what I’m saying!!!!!!! I am asking for help on projects to get started!

        1. GreyNerdShark*

          Do you have a hobby? For example if you collect widgets then consider a widget data base. Use SQLite and write code to create the database, populate it, query it, remove things from it, update things.
          Design the code so it is modular and re-uses routines you put in a library.

          Then consider how a user will use it. How do you sanitise your input. What will you do if there is an error
          in the input? Are different errors managed differently and what are your reasons for that? What searching will they want to do and how do you manage that? What if they want another database field, how easy is it to expand your code to fit? Will your search work if your database is 30,000 objects rather than 30? What things do you have to think about for that?

          Who should be able to change the information? If you wanted some kind of authentication and authorization how will you do it? There are libraries which do you choose and why?

          Supposing someone wants to call your database programatically. What API do you have? These days “RESTful” is the buzzword, can you do that? How do you sanitise those inputs? What errors should it produce to make the other programmer’s life easier? How do you securely managed the authentication and authorization?

          Now you make the code that uses your own API to do something. Doesn’t have to be web based, can be local GUI based or even command line. But it should query and produce something. It should manage authorization, it should be able to update and display information. (eg use Jinja2 templates to create a document)
          Use clear variable and function names. Format your code cleanly. Use comment lines to divide sections. Comment code as to what your function expects and returns.

          Create a github account. Put your code there. Add documentation for end users “this is how you query the database, this is what my document writing code will give you when you run it” and for API users “these are my API calls, this is my error code format”. Also add cdocumentation talking about your choices. I used this authentication library because it did this, I thought about this one but decided against it for these reasons. I tried this method of writing my REST code but I had this problem so I change to this other way”

          basically this is your portfolio. It is marketing your skills because you have no ‘experience’. This is the only thing you can point to demonstrating your level of clue. It is especially important to people who hire coders that the coders think about their choices and don’t just cargo cult stuff. That they understand about input sanitising and error messages. That they think about edge cases. About scaling and performance (hard to do in this mickey mouse app but mention you thought about it in the doco), about security, about modularity and maintainability.

          What the market is for beginners is really location dependent. You are likely to have more success in a company that is doing things you already know about so that you have more than your thin portfolio.

          You might also find an open source project that needs help. most of them need documentation writers and someone who can write clear doco is gold! If you have been a fanfic or general fic writer or artist then consider dreamwidth.org who have a culture of nurturing developers on their codebase. Some work there is good on a resume and people might know of other projects. I think DW is perl but they are similar in feel (although hashes vis dict/tuple will trip you)

          Right now you have nothing. You need code on github in your name, and you need some kind of external experience to show you can work on and understand real world things.

    4. Junger*

      Apologies in advace for the ramble.

      TLDR: ask not what you can do with Python. Ask yourself what sort of work you actually want to [i]do[/i], and ask what things are made that involve doing work like that.
      If you don’t know, try some training projects for making different things and see what you like.
      Also try to learn stuff like Git and Docker and project management before you go professional. Just knowing the basics helps a lot

      As a recently graduated programmer, your predicament sounds a lot like what I went through at the start of my college career: I knew I liked doing this stuff, but how do you turn that into an actual job?

      First, I’d recommend shifting your focus a bit to what you actually care about. You’re asking about Python, but it sounds like you mostly want to design and build systems. You can do work like that with many tools, and Python is used for a lot of different work besides that.
      Maybe ask what kind of job would have the type of work you enjoy instead of what jobs use this language.

      Which brings me to my second point: you seem to have a disconnect with the people you asked about this, and I suspect it’s because they have a different perspective on this than you.
      For example, you say you care about the process of making a program in Python and not the result. And that you (reasonably) asked what jobs involved working with Python.
      In practice, this is putting the cart before the horse. Python is not important, and the end result is [i]everything[/i].

      Projects are started and paid for by people who want their computers to Do A Thing.
      Programmers are paid to write instruction manuals that tell the computer how to Do The Thing. They pick their tools and approach based on what let’s them tell the computer to Do The Thing.

      Both programming languages and programmer jobs are designed around the idea to make computers Do Things. The languages and tools they use to accomplish this is entirely secondary.

      So when you ask for projects or jobs that use Python, that’s going to throw people for a loop. You’re asking them to reverse-engineer the entire process.
      What sort of jobs use Python? Every job where someone will pay you to make A Thing, and where people decided to use Python to make that Thing. And you can use Python to make a lot of different Things.

      PS: if you want to become a programmer, I’d recommend learning to use code management applications somewhere along the line. Stuff like Version Control or Deployment Management is kinda boring and tangential, but is pretty much required for anything bigger than a student project.

  32. TheSockMonkey*

    Question: when writing a cover letter is it acceptable to include a sentence or two saying you are looking for a job because of layoffs? Haven’t been at my job that long (a bit longer than a year) and they just laid a bunch of people off.

    2. WellRed*

      I’d save that for during the interview when they ask why you are looking to leave your current job, but more diplomatically worded. “There have been some changes(restructuring/downsizing) at the company and i”m looking for a bit more stability. I’m excited about this opportunity at new company because X”

    3. RC Rascal*

      I would not include that in a cover letter to an employer for a job.

      I might include it in a cover letter to a headhunter in your industry, if you have a good track record and the layoff was either very public or is very hot gossip in the industry. (Company buyout, production relocated, etc).

      I would definitely include it if you are networking with former employees of your company. Companies that tend to lay off, lay off, and the ones who have been laid off before you and gone on with their lives are likely to be sympathetic to your search.

    4. TCO*

      I’ve been laid off twice and had another term-limited job end, so I’ve been in the position three times of job-searching when I had only been at my current/most recent job for 12-16 months. Each time, I mentioned the circumstances because I wanted to be clear about why I was looking for a new job so quickly.

      It’s not clear from your question whether you’re actually being laid off, or whether you just worry about that because others are being laid off. That might make a difference.

      I’ve included a sentence near the end of my letter (after talking about my qualifications, experience, and interest) with something like, “As much as I’ve enjoyed my current role, funding changes mean that my job will be ending in the near future. I’m excited about the possibility to bring my skills in X, Y, and Z, to an organization like A.”

      That’s not the exact wording, but the point is that I offer a very brief explanation of why I’m looking but then refocus my attention back to the role I’m applying for. I’ve always had great success in getting interviews and I’ve gotten compliments on my cover letter over the years, so I don’t think my language is causing problems for the majority of hiring managers. I work in nonprofits, so funding shifts are understood in my field (though I’ve had unusually bad luck to have been laid off twice in 5-6 years!).

    5. PollyQ*

      I think you’d do better by focusing on why you want, and think you’d be a good choice, for the particular job you’re applying for.

  33. Kuirky*

    How do I deal with a bossy co-worker? We both work the front desk at a govt agency. I just got back from a week off yesterday, and we had an all staff meeting yesterday morning. Because we’re at the front, only one of us can go to the meeting. Our manager told us to decide who went to the meeting, and my coworker told me that she would be going because I just got back from a week off and just walked off. For context, she had gone to the last meeting, and when she went to that one she told me she was going because I had gone to the last two (which I don’t even remember because the meetings are so infrequent). She’s also bossy in the sense that she asks me to do things that she could easily do, like go get faxes and get more forms. I’ve been here longer than her, and helped train her. I have been pushing back against those requests. But in her previous job she held some supervisor roles, so I think she’s just used to being in charge. I’m very much the type of person to not say anything if it makes things awkward, but I’m starting to get really irritated because she’s not my manager, she’s my colleague. Any suggestions?

    1. Threeve*

      Can you say “can we plan from now on to alternate meetings like that, so that we don’t need last-minute decisions?” Put that in place now, so you don’t need to deal with calling her calling dibs like that. And then do keep track.

      Definitely don’t fax or fetch for her. But even if its just her wanting to boss you around, treat her asking you to do menial tasks like she actually does need help. Give an absent sort of “oh, the forms are on the second shelf from the bottom if you’re not sure where to look.” Or “I’m working on this thing right now, but the fax instructions are in the binder if you need a refresher.”

      1. Kuirky*

        Good suggestions, thanks! I have now started to keep track of meetings; they’re so infrequent, I really don’t remember who went to the last one and I don’t want a scenario where she claims all the meetings and I can’t say anything because I haven’t been tracking it lol.

    2. Leslie Knope*

      I work for a small company where there is no hierarchy – except for the owner, everyone is on the same rung of the ladder. We’re all pretty helpful to each other and lend a hand when someone is swamped, even though most of our tasks are pretty independent. Sometimes, though, my coworkers get bossy.

      One particular coworker drove me up the wall until she retired. She was the office manager and sat at the front of the office where she could intercept deliveries, clients, solicitors, you name it. My job was 60-70% in the office and the rest off site, so I had much more flexibility than she did. If I was in the office and she was going out to lunch, I was happy to keep an eye on things out of courtesy until she got back. However, she got into the habit of marching into my office, announcing she was going to lunch and telling me to keep an eye on the front door. She also started getting very strict with what office supplies she would order for me, even though the boss had given me permission to get whatever I needed. She would question whether I REALLY needed something, even though she had no idea how my tools/supplies affected my productivity.

      I figured she was unhappy in her position and her lack of seniority over anyone. She had been a manager at a previous job, and I think she felt she was now the lowest on the totem pole, even though that wasn’t true. I seemed to be the one person she could have power over since I was the youngest employee. She had a very abrasive personality and I didn’t feel like I could discuss it with her without her getting riled up, so I went to the owner and told him. I didn’t like tattling, but she was making me miserable. He sat down to talk with her about it, and in the end she confessed she hated the job and just wanted to retire. She left the company soon after that.

      I wanted to let you know I feel your pain. If you feel like you can talk to your manager, it might be worth a conversation with them to get their advice. You might frame it as, “I want to approach coworker about these dynamics that are making my job less enjoyable, but I wanted to come to you first and let you know it’s an issue.”

      Good luck.

      1. Kuirky*

        Thanks, I like your suggestion for how to approach it with my manager. My coworker likes her job, I think it’s just her past supervisor roles, and the fact that she’s 20 years older than me that contributes to her bossing me around.

    3. WellRed*

      This is really simple: Alternate weeks, full stop. In this one case, it probably made sense for your coworker to attend since you’d been out. Your manager also sucks for abdicating management responsibilities.

      1. Kuirky*

        The thing that irks me is that it seemed that’s what my coworker wanted to do (i.e alternate weeks) when she mentioned me going to two meetings in a row. But with the meeting yesterday it meant that she had two meetings in a row as well, but somehow it’s ok. I don’t know, it just seemed hypocritical to me that she would make a big deal about the meetings I went to, and then turn around and do the same thing. And my manager is very nice, she just doesn’t like conflict.

      2. Kuirky*

        Also it just bothered me that she didn’t even give me the option of going, she just decided for me.

        1. valentine*

          she just decided for me.
          It only becomes her decision when you cede the ground. Don’t back down if she insists on going when you’re meant to go to a meeting. Be sure to say pleasantly, “Oh, you went last time. It’s on the calendar, remember?” in front of everyone. Keep that high ground. Look reasonable, but not malleable. You should probably go to meetings more often than she’d like just for the face time.

          It sounds like she considers any break from the desk a positive and she’s keeping score like a sibling in an unfair family:
          You: Meeting/no desk.
          You: Meeting/no desk.
          Her: No fair! Meeting/no desk.
          You: Out for two weeks/no desk.
          Her: No fair! Meeting/no desk.

          Sounds exhausting because deciding casually in the moment would be good for people who don’t grip this stuff like a life preserver. You can keep a color-coded meeting calendar at the desk, but I’m thinking she’s also a goalpost mover and a bottomless well of dissatisfaction, so, as soon as you start keeping track of going to meetings, she’ll decide that is somehow unfair or pick at something else.

  34. LP*

    I’m in a slightly toxic work situation (bad boss allowed to do whatever she wants) in a notoriously hard to break into field (museums). I’m looking for other jobs in the industry and have had a few interviews, no offers yet, despite my resume and cover letter overhaul based on Alison’s excellent advice. To that end, I’ve been shamelessly milking connections with every application to try and stand out. My dilemma: a few months ago I interviewed for a job I was overqualified for and wasn’t super excited about, at my dream institution in my dream city. I had a nice video interview with the actual manager, not an HR person, but didn’t get the job. Now my absolute dream job at this place has opened, and I’m wondering if it’s appropriate to try and network with that manager, given that she interviewed me. It’s not in her department at all but I’m positive she knows the dream job hiring manager. Do I shoot her an email, or will that blacklist me for being a pushy SOB? What would I even say??

    1. Bruce*

      No, do not contact her. Follow the procedures outlined for applying for the job. If the new department is interested, they will contact you. Just make sure your cover letter and resume stand out. You sort of answered your own question when you asked “what would I even say?” Exactly, there is nothing to say to someone who only knows you through an interview- plus, you have no idea what she might say, perhaps there was something that caused her not to hire you that you don’t want passed to the new person.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Agreed. This isn’t actually a networking thing. Other people interviewed, too, but you haven’t interacted with her at events outside of, well, an unsuccessful job interview. Apply according to the institution’s guidelines.

    2. fposte*

      I wouldn’t unless she specifically offered continued networking/contact. If she only knows you from assessing your application, she doesn’t have information beyond what the new hiring manager will receive, so she can’t really recommend you.

    3. voluptuousfire*

      What I would do in this situation is apply to the role as usual and reach out to the person you interviewed with. Let them know you’re really excited about the company and that you saw x role open up and that you applied and ask if they may be able to refer you. Many companies have referral programs and getting that referral bonus is always a good thing. I’ve seen people referred for much less. If your interactions weren’t pleasant with this HM, I wouldn’t recommend doing this.

      I don’t advocate for doing this with every role, but if it’s a job you’re excited about, go for it. Sometimes you have to take the shot and worst case you don’t hear anything or you get rejected. I’m thinking about doing the same for a job that looked like a really good fit but I haven’t heard anything from. You can have the platonic ideal of the perfect cover letter and resume for this role but if no one is seeing it, how good is it? Every once in awhile you need to shake the tree.

      2. Annony*

        Given that the HM didn’t reach out after the interview to indicate that they really liked the OP but this wasn’t a fit and encourage them to apply for other roles…I don’t think it would be a great idea to try to treat the failed interview as a networking opportunity. The worst that could happen is that the OP gets a reputation at that institution for being overly pushy and not respecting normal hiring procedures.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          +1

          Referrals should be from people who worked with you and know the quality of your work.

          Don’t reach out, it’s boundary pushing.

    4. Alice*

      I don’t think it would be a bad idea to write to her and say, “We met back in November when you were hiring for the curator job. I enjoyed learning about X in our conversation. I want to let you know that I’m applying for position Y at your institution. Perhaps we’ll meet again in this hiring process.”
      I don’t think there is anything you can realistically ask her to do. But I think you could share the information that you are applying again at her institution.

      There are some people whom I met during interview processes who weren’t hired, but if we had the chance to hire them for a different role, I’d tell the hiring manager that I thought they were great. (But that’s not everyone who’s ever interviewed of course!)

      1. Alice*

        Quick follow up — personally I wouldn’t even ask for the referral. Just tell her you’re applying. If she wants to refer you, she can.

    5. RC Rascal*

      I’ve done this successfully. It depends on how good of a connection you made with her when you were interviewing. If it as just an interview, you probably won’t have much luck. But if there were multiple interviews, or she engaged with you after you did your follow up (replied to email, etc). you might have some luck.

      Alice has good advice on this.

    6. Frankie*

      Ooo, I would definitely not do this personally. This is not really a connection. If she had reached out after the hiring process to talk about how strong you were, please stay in touch, that’d be different.

    7. LP*

      Thank you all so much for the good advice! Deep down I knew contacting this person was a bad idea- we had one interview with no feedback, just “we went with someone else”- but I needed to hear it. I mentioned this to a colleague and good friend, and she actually has a close connection in that department that she’ll put me in touch with! In the meantime I’ll do as Allison says and focus on other opportunities instead of obsessing over one. I’ll keep y’all posted!

  35. Lipton*

    Freelancer here. I have a client of over 8 years. I’ve known her for over 15. We have good professional boundaries, but we are friendly. She’s a bit on the older side, over 70. Lately, I’ve noticed that she is forgetful and asks me the same questions again, in just a few days. I seriously think she is demonstrating signs of dementia, or Alzheimer’s. Her son is a contact through her business, he handles some of her bookkeeping, so I’ve worked with him before. I’m wondering if I should say something to him, confidentially. I ‘m really worried about my client. I am seeing a big decline in her memory in just the last six months. I’m also afraid it could backfire. We have a good relationship, and I’ve never had a conflict with her even when I’ve made small mistakes. Stay out of it or not?

    1. Picard*

      No definitely do not stay out of it. If you have any connection with the son, thats where I would start. She obviously has a good (enough) relationship with him if he’s doing her bookkeeping. Please give him a call and talk to him. he may already be aware, but he may not (denial is not just a river)

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        Agree. It’s also possible that he’s semi-aware. That is, it’s possible he’s not sure if he’s really seeing what he thinks he might be seeing, in which case you bringing it up with him might give the confirmation he needs to do something more proactive about it.

    2. deesse877*

      Keep in mind also that, while many kinds of dementia are irreversible declines, some are not, including very common ones (medication interactions, bladder infections, etc). You are not necessarily saying “your mom is incompetent,” but rather “I have seen concerning behaviors X, Y, Z and really recommend that you get your mom checked out.”

      1. Elaine Benes*

        I do think since you know her son, you could gently mention you’ve noticed some changes lately and wanted to check in. Like everyone mentioned above it’s possible he may not be aware that her changes are real in a way he needs to take action on. However, just wanted to note that you don’t need to go crazy if the son is unreceptive or whatever- my father has Alzheimer’s and there is almost nothing they can do for it. There are medications that sort of slow it down but not in a significant way. She won’t be missing out on any game-changing treatments by not getting diagnosed early.

      2. SMH RN*

        Seniors mental health nurse here, just want to clarify. Dementia isn’t reversible, a delirium could be depending on cause and treatment but people still don’t always return to previous levels of functioning. I don’t mean to nitpick but I deal with a lot family members who hear dementia and have unrealistic expectations for recovery based on this misconception.

        I think that since her son is a business contact it would be reasonable to reach out to him and mention that you’ve noticed some changes that concern you.

  36. Definitely Anonymous Today*

    How much of a heads-up (if any) do you give new employees that the workplace they’re entering is a toxic one?

    I heard through the grapevine that my office might be getting a new employee soon. I feel bad for them because while they’re excited and eager to be starting a new job, they’ll quickly see for themselves just what our office is really like.

    Without going into too much detail, some of the issues plaguing my office are a lack of work/things to do, an unprofessional boss who is well aware of issues with their staff but refuses to address them, and an employee who complains loudly about everything and everything on an almost daily basis. Many of the employees clearly do not enjoy their jobs and are just hanging on until they can retire and get their pension.

    Of course these issues will become apparent to anyone with half a brain within the first few weeks of working here, but as someone who’s been trying to get out of this environment for the past several years the empathetic part of me wants to give the new employee a fair warning.

    1. Skeptical Squirrel*

      Why would they hire someone if there is not enough work to go around for the existing employees?

      1. Definitely Anonymous Today*

        I wish I had an answer to this question.

        I think the long-term plan is to get New Hire trained and comfortable with some different job duties so they can can take over one of the Hanging On For Pension’s work when one of them retires in the couple of years.

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        Because some employers are delusional about the workload. My last company didn’t have nearly enough work to go around in my department; however, they were still hiring people to be on our team in the hopes that they would get new work soon. I can’t imagine they did – they kept saying “soon” the entire 17 months I was there.

    2. Alan*

      I would argue that you should probably not say anything. If it’s that bad they will see for themselves and I can’t imagine that telling them will achieve an awful lot other than you getting a reputation as someone who bad mouths their job.

      I get the instinct to warn the new employee but I think it would be best just to keep quiet.

  37. frustrated*

    I got a promotion at work (yay) but then the job changed really dramatically. Like, as if I had been hired for a sales position and now I’m managing college interns that work on marketing events. I wasn’t asked, just given the job, and it’s not something I would never have chosen myself for. I realize I should have said something as soon as it happened, but I thought maybe it wouldn’t be that bad and I wanted to be a team player. It IS that bad, and it’s taken over my whole job to the point that my managers are taking away the things that I actually enjoy to make more room for the interns. Oh, and the “sales” part of my job that I was hired for has been totally removed.

    I’m not sure what to do or how to address it. I realize I’m probably stuck with it until the end of the college semester. But my managers are talking about how I can “make the program my own” – but all I want is the original job I applied for. What would you all do? I’m not sure how to bring it up at all. I’m also worried I’ll just get fired for expressing frustration. And I doubt I can get a different job in my small town with the same pay/benefits.

    1. Annony*

      If you are worried about getting fired and this isn’t something you would quit over, I think you can gently bring it up by asking for some of the other duties back. “I realize that managing the interns is important, but what I am really the most passionate about is sales. Is there any way that we can redistribute the work so that I can continue doing sales at least some of the time?”

    2. Junger*

      How reasonable are your managers?

      Assuming normal managers, I think you can just be politely honest about what happened:
      – you were promoted to sales (which you like doing)
      – management later told/asked you to take on radically different tasks. This wouldn’t have been your preferred choice, but you decided to try and make it work.
      – you found out you really don’t like the new tasks because of X, Y and Z. Meanwhile the new tasks are rapidly becoming your entire workload.
      – you decided these new tasks aren’t working out, and would to move back to your old job.

  38. Roscoe*

    This question is in regards to references.

    Basically, I was laid off from a job right before Christmas. I want to leave an honest review of the company on Glassdoor. There are some good things about it, but also some bad things, including how the CEO treats people at times. I would be very honest in giving the good and the bad, but I definitely wouldn’t have all glowing things to say.

    Based on the time I would’ve worked there and my department, it wouldn’t be hard to figure out it was me. At worst, you could narrow it down to me and maybe 2 others. Nothing I would say would be bad toward MY manager who I’d use for a reference, but it wouldn’t be great toward the company as a whole.

    Is this something that managers would let affect their references in the future?

    1. Mediamaven*

      It absolutely would. Think about it – you expect a positive reference but you leave a negative one? I really would not go there. It’s not a benefit to you and that is what you should be concerned with.

      2. Roscoe*

        I’d expect a positive reference about my performance from my manager, yes. I wouldn’t be giving a negative statement about my manager or even about my department. But, being realistic about things, IMO, shouldn’t be considered a negative. I feel like it would be petty of a manager to hold a true statement against me. I mean, the stuff I’d say in the review, my manager would probably agree that are problems.

        That said people ARE petty, so you are probably right that it isn’t worth it. I just don’t think my being honest should be held against me. If I would’ve gotten a positive reference before, a glassdoor review shouldn’t change it, unless I’m blatantly lying about things

    2. A Person*

      Personally I’d also want to leave a review, but would probably wait until I have my next job. Many managers don’t bother looking at Glassdoor, but I’d be worried about short term risk. Longer term (A) it will be more difficult to tell it’s you specifically and (B) that one reference won’t matter as much.

  39. Belle*

    My friend’s boss demanded that my friend drop everything and go run a mile as “punishment” for work errors made that day. His job was threatened unless he sent back a screenshot showing proof of the run. This happened after business hours while my friend was at home – the boss has his cell number. My friend complied simply out of pure shock, but realizes just how crazy and abusive the whole situation was. Obviously, he’s looking for another job now, but is “abusive” too strong a word here?

    If it’s relevant – the boss knows (and is not just assuming) my friend is physically capable of running a mile – and this is a “white-collar” professional position requiring a college education.

    4. Picard*

      I would have noped out of there so fast….

      thats just….

      wow.

      I got nothing but a jaw to pick up off the floor…

    5. Threeve*

      That’s outrageous. If he has an HR department, or a grandboss who is even remotely sane, they absolutely need to know that his has happened.

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        YES. If there is anybody higher than this boss in the organizational hierarchy, that person needs to be informed about this incident RIGHT THIS MINUTE.

    6. CatCat*

      Whhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhuuuuuuuut. Abusive is not to strong a word.

      It might it be a blessing to refuse the next “punishment,” get fired from this job (if that even happens), collect unemployment, and have the time to job search full time.

    7. Third or Nothing!*

      Abusive is very much the appropriate word.

      I mean, I love running. I’m a runner. I could pound out a mile in 15 minutes. But it would be ridiculously inappropriate for my boss to DEMAND I DO IT AS PUNISHMENT as if I’m a kid in a PE class. I’m pretty sure there are a whole lot of other issues with this boss cause that kind of nonsense doesn’t come out of nowhere.

    8. Kathenus*

      Report it, definitely. And if he’s hourly submit the work hours for OT along with an explanation of the activity – 30 minutes overtime for mandatory punishment run required by boss at 6:30 p.m. on xx date.

      1. Kathenus*

        And document, save the screenshot he was required to send in and if there are any texts/voicemails/emails about this.

    10. Belle (OP)*

      Edit to Add: Boss is sole owner of business – it has less than ten employees and no HR – so there is no one to report him to or serve as an advocate. Yes, there are other deeper issues with both boss’s behavior and how the company is run generally.

      1. Kathenus*

        In this case it sounds like a situation where ‘his boss sucks and isn’t going to change’ and he needs to decide how to proceed based on that. Best of luck.

    11. Mark Brendanaquitz*

      I worked at a chain bookstore in grad school. During a saturday rush, I allowed someone to pay with like 10 gift cards which was a warning that I had forgotten about. I told my manager when I realized what happened. They checked the card numbers & they were all legit. But instead of just reminding me that I should pay closer attention to warnings like that from the managers, she made me dust the ENTIRE store. Every. Single. Shelf. Bosses are crazy and its just a sign to begin earnestly searching elsewhere while trying to keep as low a profile as possible.

      2. CupcakeCounter*

        That one I can at least understand! A lot of my friends who worked in retail have similar stories about having to do extreme restocks and organizing as “punishment” so this doesn’t seem as out of scope as calling an employee after hours and making them run a mile. Dusting the shelves at least pertains to your job (and I’m assuming you got paid for your time).

        1. Amy Sly*

          Hell, there were plenty of days where I loved restocking and organizing and not going out on the sales floor to deal with PITA customers … Punish me again, boss!

    12. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Abusive is exactly the correct word for this behavior.

      Good bosses do not “punish” employees for making mistakes. A good boss may decide that a certain level or quantity of mistakes is cause to increase the level of oversight an employee receives, or to change procedures to make mistakes less likely to happen, but neither of those things is punishment. Mistakes do have consequences, but there is absolutely no situation in which an employee making a mistake in their work merits a physical punishment.

      Nothing about this is okay. It doesn’t matter that the boss knew your friend was physically capable of running a mile. What matters is that his boss called him at home outside of work hours and demanded he do something not related to his job duties to atone for something he had done incorrectly, under the threat of being fired. You and your friend are entirely justified in calling this abuse, because that’s what it is.

    14. Sleve McDichael*

      No way I could run a mile without strapping my ankles and wearing the right shoes without damaging myself but I would have been sorely tempted to walk out of there and just keep going and not come back.

    15. RagingADHD*

      This is why everybody’s first financial priority should be an “FU” fund. No job is worth that kind of nonsense, because you know it’s just the tip of the iceberg.

      I’d rather live on ramen and go back to scrubbing toilets than put up with a two-bit dictator like that. Ridiculous.

  40. nep*

    Dates on resume.
    For my employment, the format I’m using is month/year to month year: 08/04 to 12/07.

    For one of the items the dates are March 1997 to June 2000.
    03/97 to 06/2000?
    03/97 to 06/00?

    Or should I change format of these dates altogether?
    Thanks for any suggestions.

    2. nep*

      Now I am rethinking putting those dates, as it’s so long ago. It’s about including my Peace Corps volunteer experience on resume.
      What would be more ‘jarring’–to see these dates, or to see a listing in my Experience with no dates, while I’ve got dates for all the others?
      Overthinking? Why, yes.

    3. RabbitRabbit*

      I spell them out on my CV, as March 1997 – June 2000. If you want to do all numbers I’d go with 3/1997 – 6/2000 or 03/1997 – 06/2000.

    4. Nicki Name*

      If you’re in the US, I believe it’s more customary to spell out the month rather than use numbers. If you really want to use numbers, I think it would at least help to keep all the years the same length, so:

      03/97 to 06/00
      or
      03/1997 to 06/2000

      1. nep*

        Thank you.
        I’m now seeing that it’s more readable with the four-digit year, indeed. Otherwise can throw one off, looking like a month/day or something.
        Appreciate all feedback.

    5. PollyQ*

      Two thoughts:

      1) Unless you have a bunch of jobs that were less than a year, you could drop the months altogether, e.g., 1997-2000. In the example you gave, the difference between working 33 months and 39 months probably isn’t that relevant.

      2) Even if you have 1 or 2 jobs that were less than a year, I think you could still use the general form of just years, and make an exception for the short jobs without it making your resume look weird.

      1. Meep meep*

        I always feel like when people leave off months they are hiding something. If you list 2018 – 2019 it could be January 2018 – December 2019 (2 years) or December 2018 – January 2019 (1 month), or any length of time in between.

        I’d recommend spelling out the month and putting the 4 digit year.

  41. Amber Rose*

    I’m furious.

    Everything I did through all the end of December and the first two weeks of January had to be re-entered because of the system change. In addition, more work came flooding in and I was drowning last week and this week. So my invoice filing didn’t get done, because it was the least important item on my to-do list. There were four week projects due immediately I hadn’t processed yet and customers harassing us for paperwork. Filing was at the bottom of my list of priorities, and I told everyone that multiple times and that if anyone needed anything to ask because I had them sorted neatly, just not filed.

    On top of that, I didn’t have a desk or a computer for 3/4 of the day on Wednesday because they decided to disassemble the cubicles and rebuild them slightly different. I couldn’t do any work, the entire office was a disaster zone of busted bits of desk and cubicle wall and people hammering/drilling.

    So yesterday morning. I was doing work frantically and my coworker came looking for an invoice, saw the pile, got all upset and went straight to my boss to say that I was “hiding” invoices and I had been told I should just immediately give him everything so it didn’t disappear on my desk. Jerk. I actually caught up on my backlog a bit later and ended up taking back all the filing and doing it myself anyway, because I would have been DONE on WEDNESDAY if I’d had my effing DESK. So he threw me straight under the speeding bus for no reason because two hours later I’d plowed through the whole thing finally anyway, but now I look like an incompetent jerk to my boss.

    On top of THAT, I managed to sink an exacto blade straight into the pad of my thumb and it still hurts. A knife going straight into skin feels really unsettling.

    Basically, I hate everyone, I’m in pain, and I am half a hair away from just walking out of here with both my middle fingers in the air because eff all y’all, you ALL SUCK this is ALL BS.

    1. Alice*

      :( Sounds rough. I had a bad week too but not as bad as that! I hope you have a good weekend and your finger heals quickly.

    2. Spero*

      Can you say something along the lines of “wow, I’m surprised coworker came to you about that. He may have felt the amount of work on my desk was high, but I was able to tackle within 2 hours. I assume he is just unfamiliar with my work pace? I also wanted you to know that the main reason there was a bit of a backlog was Wednesday’s office construction. Can we make any accommodations/get any notice for similar in future? It kept me from working for about 6 hours. Even though I was able to catch up, it required some juggling that led to coworker’s misunderstanding of my workload.”

      1. Amber Rose*

        There’s no point. She never came and talked to me about it, I just know what coworkers said to her because I sit right next to her desk.

        Also the backlog lasted the last two weeks because the last month of work all had to be re-done. It’s just I would have been through it a day earlier except for my desk, which was a last minute decision on the part of management. They always do these things so impulsively. :/

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          “They always do these things so impulsively. :/”

          Red flag, red flag! As is the ‘lost 4 weeks of data’ – the IT team should have had a plan in place for putting info into the old system, taking snapshots to load into the new system for testing, and then transitioning the up-to-date data to the new system over a day or two, not a month.

          1. Amber Rose*

            We don’t have an IT team. The people who provide the new system said they couldn’t port the numbers over. We knew ahead of time that we’d have to re-enter it all, it just got really busy at the same time and some things were still broken so it was kind of a nightmare.

  42. Beancat*

    Thank you to everyone who gave me advice about figuring out my career! I’ve taken a lot of time this week to really think. I’m in a position where I can bide my time and really be sure what I want before jumping ship, so I appreciate all the thoughtful answers :)

    In cruddy news, my next paycheck will be greatly cut. I had to take days off for illness and because of how our PTO system works had none to take. Ughhhh. :(

  43. Lorraine #1*

    I have a small situation that’s marginally annoying and I want to see if there’s something I’m missing that can be done to help. Both the person I supervise and I have the same relatively unusual name (it’s lovely but most would consider it a bit old-fashioned — think like Lorraine or Beverly) and we have to deal with folks a lot through email. We’re the entirely of our department, and neither of us prefers any of the nicknames that might go with this name. Currently we have our email display names set up as “LastName, First” and have our full names and different titles in fairly large print in our signatures.

    Nonetheless, we are constantly mixed up and people are always directing information to me that should go to her, and vice versa. A lot of the time we get comments like “I didn’t know you changed your name, did you get married?” and the like, and many people seem to think we’re the same person. What else can we be doing to differentiate ourselves, or should we just continue to cheerfully and briskly correct folks?

    1. Mid*

      It’s small consolation, but at least you’re in the same department and already interact regularly, so there’s less risk of information being lost, or sensitive information being sent to the wrong department.

      IF you can do this, and it might not be possible, you could try responding to emails that aren’t for you with “I believe you emailed the wrong Lorraine. Please send this to her at realemail@company.org” so people have to go through the effort of sending it to the correct person. This largely depends on your level in the company, and the office culture and politics. But I’ve found that making people fix their mistake a few times usually decreases the number of times it happens.

    2. Bree*

      If neither of you wants to use a nickname, I’m not sure what else you could do! Ideally, if you keep correcting people they’ll catch on?

      If it’s mostly internal folks and depending on the culture, maybe there’s a way to include a quick, friendly reminder to double-check you’re sending things to the correct Lorraine in a staff newsletter, HR update, on the intranet, or even during an all-staff meeting?

      1. RabbitRabbit*

        This. I have the same in my department, with a division manager having the same first (and common) name as one of her direct reports. They just keep reinforcing their roles/duties to people.

    3. Marny*

      All I can think to suggest if nicknames aren’t an option is to use your first and last names together as much as possible– sign everything using full names, put nameplates at your desks, etc. After a while people will start using your full names to refer to each of you so that they’ll say, “You need to ask Beverly Smith, not Beverly Jones.”

    4. Meg Murry*

      Maybe this isn’t helpful, but have you considered lean into it instead of trying to fight it? One of our vendors apparently has a department that is 3 guys named Robert/Bob/Rob etc – and they actually have an email address that is “TheBobs @ company . com” in addition to each having their own email address – and anything that can be addressed by any of them is sent to and from that email address. Or if you don’t want to be so generic, create & encourage people to use “purchasing @ company .com ” instead ?

      Alternately, maybe this is one of the few places where a photo in the signature block might be a good idea?(assuming you don’t also both fall under the same description of women of X-age with brown hair, etc)

      1. SomebodyElse*

        Why didn’t I think of this… I was in the same situation with a coworker… worse was I backed her up for her leave and then we were both managers in the same group.

        We were finally referred to as “The Sara(h)s” as we had slightly different spellings.

        Honestly you just get used to it.

    5. Bird Person*

      I’m not usually a fan of them, but have you considered adding headshots to your email signatures? If it’s mostly internal, adding a headshot to your Microsoft profile may be a solution as well. Putting a face to the name, especially if these are people you only deal with over email, may be what they need.

    6. nm*

      Would you be comfortable being addressed mainly by your last name? Like, “Hi, I’m Lorraine Smith but I just go by Smith, and this is my coworker Lorraine Johnson.”

      1. Lorraine #1*

        I would LOVE this option but most people struggle to spell or pronounce my last name. Often this means I’m getting “Lorraine….confused mumble” and she’s “Lorraine Smith.” I tried to go with a breezy Ms N [as in, lastname-firstinitial] but it didn’t stick.

        The headshots idea is a decent one but we’re both middle-aged white ladies, and a lot of the struggle is coming externally, with people who only interact with us infrequently enough that I think we’d blur together. Also I don’t want to stare at my own face, haha.

        I like the idea of having a joint email that goes to our department generally, that might help quite a bit.

        Thanks all!

        1. valentine*

          I wouldn’t do a combo email because it just reinforces the Highlander rule.

          When you redirect people to her email, attach an intro note (with pictures, if you have different hair coloring or styling):

          While many people believe the Parallelogram Department consists of a single dynamo, we are two Lorraines.

          *pic*
          Lorraine N. is figuring out how much raw material is required to provide you the extra guac that puts the extra bounce in your space steps.

          *pic*
          Lorraine S. ensures your gear is ready for spacewalks.

      2. NW Mossy*

        I did a variation of this when I reported to someone with the same first name as me. My grandboss referred to me as First Initial-Last Name, which ended up sticking (and was OK with me).

        I have a super-common first name so I’ve run into this issue a lot. While I certainly prefer to be called by my first name, I’ve found over the years that being willing to concede a bit on what people call me has enough benefits for others that I’m willing to take the hit.

    8. CupcakeCounter*

      When I started at OldJob, there were 5 guys named Jeff in the department. No one ever used their first name in the office since there were so many and they all went by last names. Couldn’t do Jeff C or Jeff D because 3 of the Jeff’s had the same first letter of their last name.
      I have a very old fashioned name and often when I meet people face to face the first time after emailing for a while I get a “Oh! You are a lot younger than I thought!”

    9. EnfysNest*

      I don’t know if this would actually help at all, but since you do a lot of email communication, one thing that came to mind for me is maybe trying for one of you to change your email font to blue, and the other sticks with black. And then you could also have your name plates with blue vs black backgrounds and possibly even lanyards if you wear ID badges or something like that to add a bit of an added visual cue? That'[s probably too subtle to make much of a difference, though…

    10. Orange You Glad*

      In a similar situation I’ve seen a smaller font “*There are two Lorraine’s at X Company: myself & also Lorraine Smith, Finance Assistant.” as part of an email signature in smaller font with an asterisk like a “p.s.” without saying p.s.

      So it says at the bottom of your emails:

      Lorraine Owlschewki
      Finance Manager
      X Company

      *There are two Lorraine’s at X Company: myself & Lorraine Smith, Finance Assistant.

  44. Mid*

    I have a coworker who openly admits to taking pain pills that aren’t prescribed to her. She’s been too heavily medicated to work in the past, despite still coming it to work. It was clear to everyone who interacted with her that she was high. I just watched her take two pills in the kitchen (she told me what they were and that they were prescribed to her). In the past, this coworker hasn’t been the best judge of her own facilities (see: everyone in our office knew she was high), and my manager isn’t aware that she’s back on pills. This is a very small office (12 people total, three in my group including me, coworker, and our manager.) We work in the legal field, though we aren’t lawyers, but we file with the court and do other things that are semi-high stakes, where mistakes really matter.

    My question is: should I let my manager know what I saw? I don’t want to “tattle” but I also doubt my manager knows my coworker is taking pills again. I know it’s a legitimate medical issue my coworker is dealing with (she overshares A LOT, but that’s a tale for a different thread) but I’m still very uncomfortable with the situation, knowing her past lack of judgement.

    1. Mid*

      To clarify, I said my first sentence to explain partially why I’m uncomfortable with my coworker’s self-medicating, but also to highlight her lack of judgement in these situations.

      Also, if it’s revelant, my coworker is in her late 60s. This isn’t a “youthful” lack of judgement.

      1. Rainy*

        She’s…not self-medicating, though? It’s her prescribed medication which she’s presumably taking as directed.

    2. Rainy*

      Obviously it does to some extent depend on what they are, but if they are her, prescribed, legal pills I think you’re going to come off as tattling unless it’s something where she shouldn’t be operating machinery if she has to take these meds, and she’s about to operate machinery or something.

    3. fposte*

      Unless you skipped a word, what you saw is somebody taking pills that are prescribed to her. That in itself isn’t a reportable event. If her behavior is concerning–if she’s overmedicated at work again–then that would be reportable, and what you saw her taking may or may not be relevant. But having had problems with medication in the past doesn’t mean she’s never allowed to take her own prescribed pills at work again, unless that was more explicitly part of a deal with her.

      2. Annony*

        It depends on the job though. I can’t come into work on narcotics even if I have a prescription. It is too dangerous due to my job duties. Does your job have a policy about this?

    4. Wandering_beagle*

      I think that since this time, the pills are prescribed, you wouldn’t really have a basis for a complaint to your manager. You saw her taking medicine that was prescribed to her — nothing wrong there! I think a manager might view you more negatively for getting involved in someone’s personal health issues, and it would reflect poorly on you.

      That said, if she takes too many pills again (that you know aren’t hers) and is clearly high, then I think you can bring it up to your manager.

      1. Mid*

        I’m not too worried about my manager thinking poorly of me for this, because my coworker drags everyone into her health issues. Constantly. I know more about this woman’s health issues than anyone else’s, including my grandmother and my partner. I’ve been told about every pill, x-ray, exam, ache, and pain, along with her entire life history, her husbands, her previous marriages, the lineages of her various pets, etc. Serious oversharing and boundary issues.

        But, I’ll wait until there’s an actual issue, rather than a preemptive warning.

    5. E*

      Maybe report any unusual behavior but leave the mention of her meds out of it? Prescribed or not, if her behavior impairs her work then that is the issue.

  45. Shiny*

    I have a new role in which I interact with counterparts on projects all over the world. I was brought in as a technical expert, and I’m finding that I’m often in the position of realizing that errors were made years back that affect what we can do going forward. This is obviously pretty sensitive, as it’s hard for people to be questioned about things they did in good faith with the best information they had at the time–the organization is investing in a higher level of technical review, which was a large part of the reason for hiring me.

    I’m happy to answer any clarifying questions, but I’m really eager for any advice on how best to manage these relationships. I don’t have any supervisory authority and we’re all working to having the highest level of quality possible, but it’s inherently difficult, especially when you add in cross-cultural communication and different norms about admitting when you don’t know something or aren’t an expert.

    1. Mid*

      I’d embrace the “turd sandwich” method–praise, bad news, praise. Also, you can emphasize that nothing was wrong when they did their work, just there are new rules now, and so things have to change. You can also use a “higher authority”–e.g “I didn’t make the rules, you didn’t either, the Big Boss did, and us poor people on the bottom have to fix it” kind of thing. Those can all allow people to save face. Of course they were right with their original work, of course they know everything!

    2. Annony*

      I think part of it depends on I f they actually did something wrong or if what they did was fine at the time but not ideal now. If it is the later then you can start by saying that you are not critiquing their work but simply gathering information to create a cohesive plan and guidelines moving forward so that everything is done to the highest level of quality possible.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Be very factual and neutral. Maybe leave out pronouns like “you” or “the team” in how you frame things.

      Pronouns, kind of implies blame: “Ah, it looks like you set the Llama Grooming system to use the size 4 trimmers. The protocol is to use size 6, so unfortunately that means the team has to recalculate the blow dryer results.”

      Neutral: “Ah, it looks like the Llama Grooming system was programmed to use the size 4 trimmers. The protocol is to use size 6, so let’s recalculate the blow dryer results now.”

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        +1

        Also, clearly define and focus on the possible solutions for each problems. Make the conversation about “Which solution do we want going forward” or “The solution is X, here are some implementation options”, not about ‘this is the problem’. People will notice this, in a good way.

      2. Amy Sly*

        Yes, the passive voice is your friend here. “Based on what was known at the time, the decision was made to X. We now know Y, and this means Z.” Unless it really matters who made the wrong decision*, keep the focus on the results of the decision and the ensuing consequences. They know they have problems; they wouldn’t have you dig through the problems if they didn’t think they existed.

        *Probably not, but it may be worth keeping personal notes to see if someone still with the organization had such a bad track record it should be brought to someone’s attention to keep them from further decision making.

  46. Beanie Baby*

    My boss is passive-aggressive. She’ll be super friendly with me, joke around with me, make comments to get reactions from me for her entertainment, inquire about my family and unfortunately, has a talent for getting me to open up more about my personal life than I would to another boss. But she’ll never tell me directly how to improve my performance at the time in which I can correct it. She always waits until our annual performance review, where she reviews her notes she has secretly kept all year long to tell me where I need improvement and she doesn’t have specific examples to illustrate where exactly I need improvement.

    Lately, she’s just stopped doing a task that we shared and left it to me to do all of it, which I don’t mind, because I’m learning more, and I’m getting kudos for completing it timely, as half of the department waits on it to finish their work. My plan is to show I’m taking on more responsibility of tasks that require more judgment than the others, and ask for a promotion and a raise.

    This morning she dumped an unpleasant task on me, saying, “I’ll let you take care of this.” It is not a treat to do this. It’s tedious, confusing, unfamiliar to most of us, and I believe she’s dumping it on me because she doesn’t want to deal with it. I answered in a half-joke tone, “How about no?” She replied, “Not a good response,” so, crap, I may have just shot myself in the foot in asking for a promotion. DAMN IT. I can already envision her jotting this little incident down in her notebook for my annual review in June.

    Two other people (of which I know) have already worked to get away from her by redefining their jobs or flat taking other jobs in other departments. I’m wondering whether it is time for me to do the same. :|

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I don’t know if you’ve shot yourself in the foot completely, but I would definitely avoid that kind of response in the future. I mean, with a friendly, joking boss, you can sometimes say things like a sarcastic, “Oh, fun!”, but you can’t imply that you won’t do a task, especially one she doesn’t want to do. She’s your boss, she’s allowed to make that call– in fact, the more experienced you are, the more of that stuff she’ll feel comfortable giving to you.

      As far as the waiting for your performance review, have you approached her and asked her for more frequent check-ins?

      1. Beanie Baby*

        Yeah, you’re right. I’m going to make-over my attitude and tackle it cheerfully, and hope she forgets.

        But overall, I can foresee in my future that if she doesn’t move on to another company, I will try to move on to another role to get out from underneath her, because I love most everything else about my job and the company.

    2. Oh No She Di'int*

      This sounds like a messy relationship lacking appropriate professional boundaries.

      1. I recommend that you first get clear in your own mind that this is a professional relationship, not a personal one, which should be treated as such. Obviously she is allowed to ask you about your family, but you do not have to disclose more than is professionally appropriate. “They’re all doing just fine. Thanks for asking!” is usually plenty. Don’t joke around with her anymore. Don’t talk about your personal life. Be a professional employee and that’s all. When she notices your change in behavior and asks you if something’s wrong, tell her truthfully, “Nope. Everything’s fine. I’m very focused on being successful here at XYZ Corp and just want to make sure I stay on task. Thanks for asking!”

      2. A fallout effect of this is that she will be less likely to see you as a jokey pseudo-friend and more like what you actually are: a professional employee. She’ll be hurt over this. Let her be hurt. She’ll get over it.

      3. If you haven’t already done so, explicitly ask for more frequent feedback on your performance. Say, “I know my review is coming up in June. But it’s hard to integrate your feedback at that point because it’s so far removed from the precipitating events. I need to know closer to when problems actually arise that there is a problem.” She may be constitutionally unable to provide this feedback to you, but you won’t know unless you ask for it.

      Side note: I’m not aware of too many work places in which a subordinate can discriminate over what tasks they will and won’t take. Generally if your manager assigns you something, it’s yours to do, with the obvious caveat that it’s within your job area and not humiliating, dangerous, or illegal. Sometimes that includes tasks that are confusing and tedious. That you felt that this was negotiable strikes me as further evidence that there are some significant lack-of-boundary problems here.

      I think this is salvageable. Best of luck with your situation!

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Side note: I’m not aware of too many work places in which a subordinate can discriminate over what tasks they will and won’t take. Generally if your manager assigns you something, it’s yours to do, with the obvious caveat that it’s within your job area and not humiliating, dangerous, or illegal.

        Eh. If you’re senior enough or considered a “rockstar” employee, you can definitely (respectfully) push back on tasks you don’t have an interest in. I’ve done it several times throughout my career and haven’t had any major issue doing so.

      2. Beanie Baby*

        Admittedly, it was a knee jerk reaction to the assignment and a slip in judgment to say no out loud. Truthfully, everyone in the department gets to do the unpleasant task for their respective clients; I just happen to be assigned to do her one client too. Turns out that she’s doing the bulk of the work for all of us, and we just take her numbers to complete the reports for filing, so it’s not as unpleasant as I expected. I’m going to be as positive about the one extra report I was assigned and knock it out of the ballpark first thing when the numbers are ready.

        And yes, the boundaries in our working relationship have been blurred from the very beginning. I’m not the only one with whom she is pseudo-buddies; she does it to everyone she likes in the department, but doesn’t push it outside of work. The fact that she likes me has worked in my favor, because she gives me extra assignments that require good judgment. I also feel I’ve earned them, but there’s another rockstar to whom she could give the extras.

        The crux of it all is her passive-aggressiveness. I can dial back the sharing of personal information with her, but if her feelings are hurt, I don’t think she’ll get over it. I believe she’d take out her vengeance in my performance reviews, rake me over the coals for minor errors, and otherwise set me up to fail. Really, it falls to me to guard against her charm and not overshare.

        Thank you for nailing the overall problem on the head.

    3. Moop*

      So from a manager’s perspective, giving negative feedback can be emotionally draining. So sometimes it’s easier and less time consuming to note it down and address it in one lot. I get this isn’t helpful for you particularly when so much time has passed that she’s forgotten about specific examples to coach you. This is something you can absolutely bring up: “I appreciate you giving me feedback on areas of improvement, but it can be confusing to receive it once a year when the situation has passed long ago. I’d be keen to get some more regular coaching – if you spot something feel free to tell me straight away so I can work on it.” For a boss like this it’s for your own benefit to not react defensively when she does give you feedback; so giving you regular feedback doesn’t become a draining chore.

      As for leaving you with an unpleasant task…well, that’s kind of what bosses get to do: delegate tedious work to more junior staff so they can use their time doing something else that’s more significant. If it’s confusing and unfamiliar, it’s best to ask for specific directions rather than a blank “How about no?” Just as you want her to communicate openly to you, you need to communicate with her too. A joking “how about no” is also passive aggressive; it doesn’t provide your boss with any context as to why you can’t/won’t do the task.

      A promotion is based on a lot of factors. Saying one wrong thing shouldn’t – for a reasonable boss – shouldn’t take you off consideration unless what you said was especially egregious (which it wasn’t!)

      As for over sharing – you’re completely in charge of the information you share with her. It sounds like when she’s being friendly she can be charming and adept at eliciting information. You know this about her; so keep it in mind when discussing personal events. Unless she’s asking you inappropriate questions about your childhood or how you spend your money, she’s not doing anything wrong by engaging in personal chatter with you and making you feel so comfortable you talk to her about your relationship with your mother in law.

      Just as there’s no perfect employee, there is no such thing as a perfect boss. Every relationship needs fine tuning to understand each other and function well together. If you go to another boss it’s no guarantee they’ll be better – in fact, they could be much, much worse. See if you can invest some effort into working effectively with your boss before you decide to throw in the towel.

  47. merp*

    As a manager, would it seem ridiculous for an employee to take off a decent amount of time over the course of a couple months for an ongoing pet health problem?

    I’ve posted here and there before but my cat has needed a lot of at-home care for a few weeks, and continues to need more, and will need to go back to the vet again before all this is over (the vet being a specialty vet hospital 2 hours away) and I just feel like it seems absurd at this point to ask for more time off. For reference, I’ve probably taken 4 days off for this since mid-December. I’ve had to call in last minute once, thinking it really might be her last day. Thankfully, it wasn’t, but I am so worried about my manager deciding that all this cat drama has gone on long enough. I can at least ask off in advance for this next visit, but it might be 2 days depending on how this vet visit needs to work. And there’s no guarantee that there won’t be an emergency before then (although, oh my god, I hope there isn’t, we’ve been through so many.) And I’m the only person who can do all this for her.

    1. Faith*

      I think if you have the leave time available, it should be okay; 4 days over a a month isn’t that bad (especially given lots of people take off during December anyway). And when you’re not using leave, do the best you can to keep on top of your work so if there is an emergency, it’s not going to mess you up at work.

      I’m sorry about your cat.

    2. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      Talk to your manager and explain it all. The more you can draw them in, empathy wise, the better the communication you’ll have about this. Maybe your manager has had the same experience or at least has a pet they have to take care of as well? Considering that your pet is very much your family and solely relies on you, it’s important to share that part of your life – you’d do the same thing for a human family member right?

      When you know you’ll need to take time off, work with your manager on how you can do your work from home or beef up your work to compensate for when you might be gone.

      I have 2 dogs – I feel your concerns. Best of luck to your sweet cat.

      1. cat socks*

        Agree about talking to your manager and seeing if there is any way to work remotely.

        I understand what you’re going through! I had a couple of cats with health issues that required specialists at a vet hospital that was about an hour drive. It can definitely be tough to manage with work. Best wishes to your kitty and I hope she is okay.

        1. merp*

          Yeah, I wish remote work were possible but I work a reference desk, so that’s not really an option. I appreciate the advice and well wishes from both of you though!

    3. Picard*

      Are you taking vacation, sick or is it all one bucket?

      In any scenario, I think, if you need to take time and have it available to take, do so without going into details cause yeah, you might get some side eye/eye roll if you’re spending a lot of time on pet care.

      1. merp*

        I had some comp time and when I used that up, I’ve been using vacation. I didn’t know if it was right to use sick time for pet care and didn’t want to risk eye rolls if I asked. I do have lots of vacation stored up, so I guess you’re right – I doubt she would interrogate me about why I was using it assuming it was far enough in advance.

      1. merp*

        I mean, it just came up. I’m not interested in lying a bunch at work, but when the emergency first occurred, I called out in the morning with no notice to take her to the vet. And it’s been ongoing now for over a month, and coworkers have asked about how she’s doing and things like that. That doesn’t mean I have to tell them about the upcoming days off, I’m realizing now, but it was never a big secret.

        1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

          I’d simply take it as sick leave an tell them you have a doctor’s appointment. It’s true.

    5. Not All*

      I really think this is a “know your manager” thing. My last two offices no one would think anything of it. I have solid evidence of that since one of my dogs developed a serious health issue that meant I took a TON of time off…the only thing that happened was my grandboss encouraging me to take an extra day off when I did eventually end up having to put him down and a sweet card from the office. This office it seems like there’s been a run of people needing time off for pet issues but it isn’t viewed any differently than people having kid health issues. But 3 managers back…ugh…yeah…I’d have lied about why I was taking leave. He was a jerk in general and one of those “pets are disposable” people.

      I hope things improve for your kitty!

    6. S-Mart*

      Some managers may see this as ridiculous. I wouldn’t care. When my team takes time off, I only want to know enough of the reason to put the time in the right bucket. I do not care why they need time, as long as they have time available.

  48. Rainy*

    I started to write a huge book about a thing that’s pissing me off, but it turns out the details don’t matter, and the core of the thing is this: why is it so often the case that in an office where “volunteers” are requested for various things (presentations, in this case), there’s so much bait and switch, where they get you to say yes to a reasonable request and then trickle-truth you the unpalatable details?!

    This is not good for my morale! I volunteered for an evening presentation because no one else could do it, and only then did I find out it was off-site, someone in the office who isn’t even doing the presentation promised them something that is IMPOSSIBLE, and I had to clean up the mess, set boundaries, and make it clear that the request for extra crap was not going to happen.

    Luckily it doesn’t happen super often to me, but it happens to everyone sometimes, and it’s annoying. Just tell me what I’m agreeing to, dammit!

    1. Just Another Manic Millie*

      “why is it so often the case that in an office where “volunteers” are requested for various things (presentations, in this case), there’s so much bait and switch, where they get you to say yes to a reasonable request and then trickle-truth you the unpalatable details?!”

      Because they know that if they told you the truth about it, you wouldn’t agree to do it.

      1. Rainy*

        That’s the thing, though! Most of us still would, we’d just be *prepared* for the shittier bits when we took it on.

  49. Pancakes*

    A bit of an existential question today:
    Do all (or most?) workplaces turn out to be disappointing when you’ve been in them for a while?

    I’ve only worked in a few different workplaces. The first was objectively terrible, and I felt so great about my current workplace for about the first year. But I’m now in my third year here and I see things that are really disheartening. None of them are dealbreakers on their own, but they add up and give a general feeling that upper management does not care at all about morale or keeping workloads reasonable. There are also great things about working here – my direct manager and coworkers are all great and the day-to-day is pretty good, but when I think about the overall picture I’m disappointed and the morale of my wonderful colleagues is similarly low (so I imagine they’ll be leaving eventually).
    I’ve started looking for another job, but I’m worried that this will just happen everywhere once you go a little deeper than the surface.
    Thoughts? Advice?

    1. Ptarmigan*

      Normal, in my experience. All organizations have problems and dysfunction. When you start a job, it all seems great, and people don’t tell you which other people they hate or how the company is a mess. Eventually you learn all of the warts and get disillusioned. Welcome to humanity.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      Mine isn’t. I’ve been here 15 years. We’ve had ups and downs but the last executive director they hired has been terrific, after a bad one, who replaced a good but maybe not remarkable one. But my coworkers are generally great and we’re treated well.

      It sounds like your workplace is a not that hot, but you might revisit your expectations re: How happy is work supposed to make you? just in case. I love my job, seriously, but it’s still work and the reality of my particular job is that it’s often tedious, and pretty much anywhere you work is going to have things that have to be done even though nobody likes doing them.

      1. Pancakes*

        Thanks for your insight!

        I’m not asking about day-to-day work, tasks, etc., which I’m pretty happy with! I mostly mean the decisions of higher ups and workplace dynamics in general. Things like policy shifts that take away small perks, managements response when we try and push back on something as a group, the way work is shifted when someone leaves the organization, and the way people are treated in salary/raise negotiations. Not all of it (or even most of it) impacts me directly, but I hear about and see it, and it makes the whole vibe of this place feel bad (and also makes me think that is how I would be treated if I were in a similar position in the future)

        1. Dust Bunny*

          So it still sounds like maybe your place isn’t great about this stuff. Mine took away some perks a few years ago *but* it was made known that this was only done after it became clear that enough people were abusing them that the whole policy wasn’t workable (we’re relatively small, about 40 people, so a few bad apples can cause outsized problems). And we’re not generous with salary negotiations because right now there isn’t the money to spend on them, after our preceding bad ED, although things are improving. So . . . there can be Reasons. But sometimes the reasons are understandable and sometimes they’re just arbitrary BS and bad management.

          1. Pancakes*

            Yeah, I think that I would feel much better if I knew about reasons, even if I didn’t love decisions. We are an even smaller staff than you, so our upper management sees and talks to us every day, and the fact that they respond by taking offense when we explain our reasoning for pushing back on something feels disheartening.

    3. Frankie*

      Yeah, Year 2 & 3 I have personally found to be the years I start to see more of how the sausage is made and it’s disheartening, as you say. I try to focus on the things I really love, which are unique and hard to find, and I try to detach from the areas of dysfunction, to the extent I can. Fortunately I don’t have any big dreams to be in upper management, so as someone in the lower ranks it’s definitely possible to shut out some of the politics and weirdness and focus on “work.”

    4. anon attorney*

      No, I don’t think it is inevitable that a workplace will start to suck over time. I’ve worked in my firm for 12 years and on the whole it’s still a pretty good environment. The culture has evolved but the basic values haven’t changed.

      Another factor to bear in mind is that we change, too. If you’ve outgrown your role, for example, management decision making can become harder to swallow or more frustrating. But it’s not necessarily that the company is showing its true colors, or whatever – it’s that the fit has changed, because fit is about the interaction between individual and culture.

      I think if culture feels ok at the start you’re not doomed to disillusionment, but there’s no way to rule out change, either.

    5. Fikly*

      Late reply.

      I’ve been at my job for just about a year.

      It’s the best workplace I’ve ever been in. It’s better than I thought it would be. It’s better than I thought was possible. I say this not to brag, but to say it is possible, and they do exist! I’m sure they are rare, but not impossible to find.

  50. The Green Lawintern*

    Hi all. I was hoping to get some opinions on how to work with a supervisor you don’t respect. Objectively, a lot of the critique I get from my boss is nonsense, but some does have merit. The problem is that I can feel myself starting to automatically push back on all the feedback I get from her, rather than taking it piece by piece and evaluating each comment fairly. How do you keep a calm, non-BEC mindset in this situation?

    1. Middle Manager*

      That’s a tough one. I’ve been there and honestly, if that boss hadn’t moved on, I would have needed to. I can agree to disagree with a boss on some things here and there, but if I can’t fundamentally respect them as a professional, then I just can’t do it long term.

      One suggestion, is there anyone else at your job you could seek out feedback from to get a better opinion? A peer a little further along in their career, another manager, etc? Maybe that would help you sort out what is valid criticism and what is unfair?

      1. The Green Lawintern*

        Thanks for the feedback! I do go fairly often to a senior coworker for perspective, and our grandboss is fairly accessible as well, but they’re both slammed and it doesn’t feel fair to keep running to them every single time.

        I don’t want to move on from this job for a number of reasons, but yeah…I don’t know how sustainable this is long term for me.

    2. Blueberry*

      I wrote a sticky note with a quotation on it and put it on my work notebook. Unforutnately I forget what the quotation was, but it was there to remind me to consider what I was told as separately as I could from the person telling it to me, even though she was [insert rant here]. Every day I looked at it when taking out my notebook and I did my best to remember that necessary separation.

      Good luck! Remember, you’re there to do the best job you can for the business, for whomever you serve, for your own pride in yourself, despite obstacles such as this supervisor. Correcting the reasons they earned your disrespect isn’t part of your job, so you don’t have to engage with those. (Or so I kept telling myself. :)

      1. The Green Lawintern*

        Thank you for the suggestion! I do keep reminding myself that I owe it to myself and our clients to put out quality work regardless of the challenges I face.

    3. Kathenus*

      You could implement a new habit where you never respond to feedback in the moment, but instead reply with something like – thanks for the information, let me process it a bit and get back with you on my thoughts for addressing it. This way you can try to be more objective and parse out the merit from the nonsense, and figure out a constructive and professional way to respond versus trying to react in the moment.

      1. The Green Lawintern*

        Oh trust me, I already have a 24 waiting period between when I receive edits on a report and when I actually go in and change things. I just end up stewing over every comment I get!

  51. F*

    I supervise but do not formally manage two members of junior staff at my firm. We work in client services so the hours can be long and unpredictable. We tell people during the interview process and we compensate them with solid bonuses. One of the junior staffers lives in the suburbs and commutes, while the other lives in the city. We provide a car service to take you home if you’re working late but the staffer that lives in the suburbs is very unwilling to work late or come in early causing the staffer in the city to pick up the slack. I am starting to see signs of resentment from the staffer picking up the work. Any way I can address this? It’s a bit sensitive because I suspect the staffer in the burbs would like to move to the city but does not have the money. This staffer has mentioned student loans and I understand not everyone is in a financial position to move to the city at 22, but it’s causing an issue for the rest of the team. I also worry the suburban staffer won’t succeed in the long term because they don’t raise their hand for things that require them to stay late. Do I address this or leave it alone?

    1. Fed*

      Of course the staffer who always has to work late and come in early is getting resentful! I would to. You need to equally divide up the extra work time. Where a staffer chooses to live there own choice, it shouldn’t be a factor in how much someone contributes.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think you have to leave out the staffer’s personal financial and logistical factors and look at it as a job performance issue. Is it part of everyone’s job to take on some of this work? Was this expectation clearly laid out during the hiring process? If so, and the suburb staffer isn’t pulling his/her weight, then it becomes a performance issue that needs to be addressed as any other issue would.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        This. It’s unfortunate that the suburban employee lives far out from the office, but it’s completely unfair to dump all the extra work on the city employee. She needs to start pulling her own weight.

    3. merp*

      If the job requires sometimes staying late or coming in early, and they were told in advance… well, then it doesn’t sound like something that one of them can just refuse to do without consequences. Sounds to me like they just aren’t doing a part of their job they’re expected to. Absolutely worth addressing, and if I were the person picking up the slack, I’d be really frustrated that no one had already.

    4. Kathenus*

      Agreeing with all the other commenters, clearly re-iterate the conditions needed to succeed in the position – which includes early/late work – and let them succeed or not. If they can’t fulfill them, then they need to be moved out. Their personal situation can’t be a factor when their performance negatively affects others in the team and the completion of the work. You can be sympathetic, but need to be clear and hold them to the job requirements.

    5. Leslie Knope*

      Hopefully you have a way of showing appreciation to the staffer who does pick up the slack. My boss does that for me – I have a coworker who just isn’t the type to go above and beyond. Not that he’s doing anything “wrong.” Honestly I’m not even sure he’s aware of the better treatment I get because he’s probably not paying attention. I’ll stay late sometimes because I’m the one who will ask what else I can do to help. Then I’ll get to leave several hours early on Friday. Or my boss will ask if I’m going out for lunch, ask me to grab him something from wherever I like and put both our meals on the company card. Little things like that add up.

      I agree with others have said, though. It shouldn’t be at all about finances or anything outside of the company. Address what affects the company and productivity and leave everything else alone.

    6. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Hire another staffer to take on the excess work that can’t be covered by 2 people working reasonable full-time hours.

      Pay the longer-worker staffer more.

      Consider explaining the work culture of your industry to the suburban staffer, but also consider that maybe they’re also digging the work-life balance they have.

    7. RabbitRabbit*

      I’m someone with a daily commute of about 2.5 hours, due to living in the suburbs. I shifted my daily work schedule to coming in early in the morning, so if I do have to stay later I’m still generally getting home at a reasonable hour.

      Basically, it’s unfortunate that this suburbanite wants to but can’t afford to live closer to work, but they were warned strongly about this and are given bonuses to make up for that kind of schedule. It’s time for some gentle reminders that they signed on for this and need to help carry the workload.

      1. Samwise*

        I wouldn’t make those reminders gentle. I’d be clear with the slacker (yes, slacker — they’re not doing work that they were told was required, and that they get compensated for too with bonuses) that this is required work and let them know that starting right now, they are expected to stay late/come in early.

        And you provide transportation!

        Possibly you need more staff so that’s worth considering. In the meantime however, this person needs to get with the program.

    8. Notinstafamous*

      Are you set up for suburbanite to work from home? We have a similar hours / late night requirement at my firm but the folks with kids or who live far away often go home and the log back in. That seems pretty consistent from a big law/big 4 perspective. If she won’t work more than regular hours regardless than most of the time at the firms I’ve been at that results in a combination of no bonus followed by up-or-out being “out” in a year or two.

      1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

        That isn’t right–WFH should be available to all–not based on whether you have kids, live far away, etc. The person living next door should be able to do it too.

    9. PollyQ*

      Make it clear to the suburban worker that long, unpredictable hours are a required part of the job, and that she can’t just opt out of them, any more than she could any other unpleasant task.

      If needed, switch to a model where you’re assigning work evenly, rather than waiting for someone to volunteer to pick it up.

    10. Username required*

      Personally – I’d say the commute is irrelevant. The employee took the job knowing the requirements – for them to now decide they won’t work the hours required shouldn’t be allowed. The coworker who is having to work earlier/later because of slacker coworker didn’t sign up for this workload. I’m going through something similar with slacker coworker who went on vacation for the second time in 6 months leaving his work unfinished and I had to pick up the slack again because I did the job a couple of years ago.
      When I complained to my supervisor that this couldn’t keep happening I was told I didn’t understand because I’m single/childless and he has to take vacation at a certain time because of school holidays. After my head finished spinning I told my boss that was a red herring. The problem is not that he went on vacation or why – it is that he left without finishing his workload or telling anyone that time sensitive work wasn’t done. Needless to say I’m job searching as I feel completely unsupported.

  52. SpookySzn*

    I have a rather low stakes question that I hope you all can help me with! I’ve been at my current job for around 7 months. It’s my first job out of undergrad and is an entry level position. My employer is a consulting company. The office is business casual, but leans more towards the casual side of business casual. They have a clearly defined dress code which doesn’t specify anything about hair color. I’m thinking of dying my hair silver. Is dying my hair an unnatural color an ill-advised plan?

    1. wingmaster*

      I had a similar work place like yours. I had seen a few people dye their hair burgundy or red but not a color like silver or blue (which is what my hair is now). I asked my grand boss just to be safe, and it was fine! Silver is such a pretty color, and you could make it more “natural” looking going to balayage route.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      . . . is there somebody you trust that you could ask?

      This wouldn’t be a problem at my job, but it might at others if the general culture is more conservative. If yours is as casual as it sounds, it probably won’t be an issue, but if you work with clients they might have an opinion about it.

    3. Disco Janet*

      If you have good report with someone who has been there a long time, I would ask them. Otherwise, if you don’t deal face-to-face with clients… eh it’s probably fine.

    4. Bree*

      Yeah, I would ask someone you trust for their honest opinion about whether or not this would negatively affect how you are perceived. Ideally your supervisor. Personally, I say go for it, but every office is different.

    5. Threeve*

      I would say you just don’t want to be the only person with unnatural-colored hair, at least until you’ve built a solid work history. My office has a fully casual dress code–jeans and t-shirts–and we have a single entry-level staff person who always has wild colors. It’s not against our dress code, and quite possibly she cleared it with her boss. But while we have lots of entry-level staff around the same age, she’s the only one people really think of as “young,” and they tend to treat her accordingly.

    6. CupcakeCounter*

      What is your natural color? If you are already have lighter color hair, I don’t think it would be such a “shocking” change and not a problem. If your hair is pretty dark and this would be a drastic change, I would probably ask around and/or ease into the change (start out with some highlights and get a bit lighter each salon visit.
      Also if there are other people there with “unnatural” hair colors, proceed with the silvery tresses!

    7. LKW*

      I think it entirely depends on the client group you support. If you are working with Department of Defense or a global bank, they may take umbrage. If you are working with a consumer goods company like Revlon or retail like Sephora it would probably be well received.

  53. JustaTech*

    Business travel tips needed!
    I’ve got two (separate) business trips to Europe coming up in the next two months, to Germany and Italy. Is there anything I should know about business travel in Europe? (I’ve been to both countries about two years ago as a tourist, and don’t speak either language.)
    I know people in Europe tend to dress better than most Americans, is my business casual wardrobe going to be embarrassing? I’m going to be doing tours of manufacturing plants, so many hours on my feet, thus I’m not planning on wearing heels.
    Are there important business rituals I need to watch out for? Are business cards super important? Is it OK to write on the cards people give me?

    Also, any tips on traveling with my occasionally-grumpy-traveler boss?

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Faith*

      My best tip is this: stay awake the first day you’re there (until at least 6pm local time) so you can get over the jet lag quickly. It’ll be a pain in the ass to stay up that long, but it makes it so much easier going forward.

      Also, a lot of Europeans have a smaller personal space bubble than Americans, so don’t be weirded out by that. I can’t think of any weirdness with business cards.

    2. Coverage Associate*

      The one thing on clothes that I can say is that Italians and Germans tend to wear less bright colors. I like bright colors, but if I were trying to fit in in Germany and Italy, I would leave them at home.

      1. Maureen*

        Germans can be very formal and really like to shake hands with everyone at the start and end of meetings. Even if its a big group of people. If you receive a business card, say thanks and look at the card for a second or two. Don’t just stuff it in your pocket/ handbag.

        1. JustaTech*

          Good to know! Is it worth trying to learn a couple of polite phrases in German or Italian? Or would it be counterproductive to mangle basic greetings? (I’m not great at languages and for some reason I default to Russian for “yes”, which is weird given I’ve never even tried to learn Russian.)

          2. AL (the other one)*

            Taxi drivers may not speak English in either Germany or Italy, so print out the addresses you’ll need so that you can show them.

            If you try to learn one or two phrases it will go down well.

            I only know “yes, no, please, thank you, two beers please” in German but I get by :)

            In Italian, try “Mi dispiace, non parlo Italiano”. Italians will usually appreciate someone making the effort.

            Italian coffee rules.
            Cappuccinos only in the morning, up to 11am max – then only espresso or macchiato afterwards. The servings will be really small. That’s the norm, no need to stick to it but just FYI.
            Depending where in Italy you are, there will be different types of regional food. Spaghetti bolognese does not exist. Breakfast will be very light in most hotels.

            Germans are secretly more hierarchical (power distance hierarchy) than they might appear at first. I work for an American company with a ‘call everyone by their first name’ policy and the German team really struggled with this, and with finding a way to refer to senior managers formally and politely in German and still use the first name.

    3. Leisel*

      I would say make time away from your boss important. Not EVERY meal has to be together, etc. Have some time to decompress if he’s being a Grumpy McGrumperson.

      Also, I think you can find a balance between business casual and comfortable. Find some shoes that have memory foam insoles or something like that, but look nice. Luckily there are more options now that look stylish and comfortable, but aren’t sneakers. Check out Dr. Scholls! I think you can pair a button down shirt and blazer with comfortable shoes and still look very nice. Plus, it’s important to have closed-toe shoes if you’re around machinery.

      Have good trips!

    4. Nessun*

      Definitely agree with the jet-lag advice! If it’s possible to arrive earlier (as in, a day earlier) to get used to the time difference, I’d take advantage of that option. My last trip, I arrived early and worked from the hotel the first day, so I could work at my own pace (and in comfier clothing), and adjust to the time.

      I suggest checking websites for any info about cultural norms, just so you’re not completely startled by anything (recent example: my boss wanted a dinner for our group, and meeting in Madrid meant that dinner started at 9 pm instead of his suggested 6 pm…because no restaurant would be open for a 6 pm dinner in Spain!!).

      I’d err on the more business side of business casual when choosing your outfits, and I’d also suggest being careful about the materials and how you pack – not all hotels have the same equipment for cleaning/pressing clothes, and looking your best improves mood and confidence.

      Enjoy your international travels!

      1. JustaTech*

        I’m hoping we can get an extra day on both ends of the trip. For us both flights to Europe have to be red-eyes (shape of the planet, nothing to be done about it), with transfers, so it’s unlikely we could actually get to the sites same-day.

        I guess now’s a good time to order another pair of Betabrand pants (the yoga dress pants), since last time I went to Europe I wore those lovely zip off at the knee pants, and while they’re quite functional, the only place they’re work wear is if you’re hiking an Alp!

    5. LKW*

      Don’t worry too much about your clothing – Americans stick out like sore thumbs. We wear our clothes a lot looser than our EU counterparts. Italians love a pretty shoe, Germans like a sensible shoe. Many years ago when I worked in Belgium it was perfectly fine to wear the same outfit two days in a row. Don’t be surprised if this happens, pack just in case they stopped that.

      In Germany don’t cross the street against the light (you might be fine in Berlin). I don’t think anyone cares in Italy.

      If you’re travelling continually for two weeks bring a small medicine kit. Medicine isn’t sold in a CVS and if you need cough syrup on a Sunday, you may have to ask the concierge for directions to the only open pharmacy in the neighborhood (most close, one will stay open, they rotate). Tylenol, band aids, neosporin, cortisone cream are always in my bag, just in case.

      1. Belgian*

        Am Belgian, can confirm we still wear the same outfit 2 days in a row. I cannot imagine how much laundry you would have otherwise!

        For outfits I think you would be fine with wearing a dark wash jean, button down shirt and classy sneakers (check out the sneakers by Veja, they’re very popular right now).

    6. Existentialista*

      Me too! I’m leaving Sunday for a two-week trip to Germany and Sweden.

      Some specific things I noticed last time I was in Germany – you will encounter people who do not speak English, which you don’t in Sweden. Some taxis only take cash, so have some Euros on you. They have a proper hot meal at midday, not sandwiches or salads like Americans.

      +1 to take along cold medicine and other over-the-counter medications, just in case, because they are hard to get there.

      My favorite pro-tip regarding international flights, which I figured out myself – if you sit in an aisle seat (and you should always sit in an aisle seat), wear light-colored socks, so that when you’re sleeping, the flight attendants can see your feet and don’t run into them with the cart as they’re coming past.

    7. Ginger Sheep*

      Regarding shoes, no need to wear heels either in Italy or in Germany, but (unless things have changed in the last decade) sneakers would definitely stick out. Any type of « sensible » leather shoes would be fine if you are on your feet all day.

  54. Helena*

    For managers/employers: Do you know, or do you have an estimate, of how many of your employees/direct reports receive public benefits? Additionally, does your company actively collect this information from its employees?

    For the purpose of “public benefits,” this includes but is not limited to things like Medicaid, SNAP, public housing, child care subsidies, and help with utilities.

    I’m curious about this because I work in the public benefits space and we’re often surprised to learn that employers seem to have no idea (or claim to have no idea) that many of their employees subsidize their employment with public benefits. So wondering how people here think about this.

    DISCLAIMER: I am NOT asking this question to start a political discussion on the validity of public benefits, too many people on them, not enough people having access to them, whatever. Thus, I politely request contributions only from those who have an actual to my actual question being posed. I am curious only about KNOWLEDGE OF employee benefit use, NOT your opinion of that benefit use :) Thank you!

    1. Picard*

      Wow. I’ve never even thought about that. The lowest salary at our place is well above minimum wage though so I would hope that NONE of our employees need public benefits. How do you even ask that question?

      2. Angelinha*

        Income limits for some benefits, especially food stamps, are pretty high. I worked at a nonprofit where entry level staff made $38K in their first year, which I realize isn’t a ton, but many of them were on benefits, particularly those who had kids and/or didn’t have a second income in the home. Same with many of the managers ($55-60K).

        I knew that some of my staff/coworkers were on benefits because they would mention it in conversation – likely more common since we worked all day with helping people access benefits.

    2. fposte*

      I mean, on the one hand there’s the McDonald’s situation, so I get the inquiry. But from a management standpoint the notion that I’d be requiring employees to self-report on their public aid use fills me with horror and, IMHO, risks being discriminatory due to disparate impact. And if I were an employee asked about that, whether (ostensibly) anonymously or not, I’d be really skeeved out.

      Can you think of a way to get that information that circumvents those problems?

      1. Helena*

        I’m not asking from the perspective of, “I expect them to ask.” Nor that they should. Just curious about knowledge levels of it.

        Employees do sometimes bring it in conversation themselves.

        1. fposte*

          You asked if the employer actively collects that information, and I responded as to why I wouldn’t.

    3. Mojo021*

      I am in a human resources position (15+ years) and have never tracked or requested that information. The only time we would be aware of this would be if an employment/wage verification was requested.

    4. Mia 52*

      No I have no information on that, aside from one employee who shared openly that she applied for Medicaid between jobs once, but ultimately did not use it as she ended getting hired by us. So I don’t have much of an idea. We only hire full time workers and have good insurance in my opinion, so I think most people use that benefit. Also our lowest paying salary wouldn’t qualify you for anything unless you lived in NYC/SF and had several dependents. So I guess I just deduced that no one really uses them.

    5. Coverage Associate*

      I know I have never been formally asked. I know it has come up casually in very small pre-career businesses. The closest it has come in my professional career is a benefits representative suggesting I look into Obamacare for my dependent, because adding him to the employer’s plan was so expensive.

    6. When I Worked in H.R.*

      We never tracked this, but it was a thing. During the new employee orientation I made a point of mentioning the state’s “Children’s Health Insurance Plan,” (CHIP) to parents of children who worked for my employer because the earning limits were fairly high and for many people it was a better deal than the employer-subsidized insurance plan we offered.

    7. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

      I know the state and local government where I work require proof of marriage (marriage certificate copy) when hired as well as childrens’ birth certificates, etc. as well as proof of insurance if not taking the insurance offered–example: new hire declines insurance, must show proof they have insurance. That may be Medicaid, etc. and that will be placed in the employee file. In that way, the company nows.

  55. Emmie*

    What alternative phrases do you have for me?

    People at work ask me why my engagement ended many years ago. I share too much information. Can you give me some bland work appropriate responses?

    Thank you!

    2. Amber Rose*

      “It just didn’t work out, you know how it goes” + subject change is what I usually default to. People will fill in the blanks themselves.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      These ^^. My mother was dumped by her first fiance because she objected to his over-attachment to his mom and his family’s general contempt of her.

      But she’ll tell you it just didn’t work out. Which is true.

    5. MissGirl*

      How do they know your engagement from years ago ended? Are you bringing it up? If so, I would start there with oversharing. It’s not wrong to communicate that but it’s a personal detail that coworkers don’t need to know.

      1. NJBi*

        ^This, yeah. You can refer to this person as just “my ex” or “a former partner” when they come up in anecdotes. No need to get into the whole engagement thing. But if it does come up, I like the dispassionate “It ended up not working out.” If the coworker asks a follow-up, use one of the classic advice columnist stonewalls, like Carolyn Hax’s “Wow” or Captain Awkward’s return-awkwardness-to-sender blank, slightly confused expression; they’re being rude, and you do not need to share more.

      2. Emmie*

        You’re right. I am part of the problem. It’s because we (coworkers) talk about things we’ve previously done. So, should I just refer to him as my friend? My friend and I went to the Bahamas. My friends and I ate dinner there. Or just say I?

        4. Donkey Hotey*

          If it’s been multiple years, you can safely drop the person out of your vocabulary.
          “I did this.”

    6. Workerbee*

      “Why do you ask?” is what I’d be tempted to fire back, or “Oh, I don’t know; just lucky, I guess,” but neither of these may always be helpful. :)

    7. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I think the bland suggestions you’ve already been given are great, but I’m still boggling that people asked you that in the first place. One of my former coworkers would mention her ex husband from time to time, but it would never even occur to me to ask why they got divorced!

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        Yup. I worked closely with someone for 7 years and even made her gender reveal cake. No idea why she and her first husband divorced.

    8. Tuckerman*

      When I don’t want to get into details or speculate on the details of someone else’s life, I say, “You know, Life happens.”

    9. LKW*

      Or you can just be absurd “Oh, it’s the same old story: Boy meets girl. Boy & girl fall love. Boy turns out to be a alien from another planet. That old yarn”

      or

      “Well my grandmother always said ‘When you see a moose running through the corn field, you know the rabbits aren’t sleeping’.”

  56. Quiznakit*

    This is just to vent; I know the way to approach this issue is to use my words as necessary. No advice needed, but commiseration is welcome.

    Right, then. I’m on work travel this pay period with half of my office. We’re in a city a long way from home and of course there are lots of things to do and see! However, we’re also working long days in one another’s company and commuting back and forth from our hotel together and eating meals together at the hotel’s free meal buffets, etc. I’m very much an introvert and while I really like my coworkers (they’re my kind of people!) I also seriously need down time away from them all.

    You can see where this is going, I’m sure. A couple of my fellow travelers are very very interested in going to do and see all the things, and a couple of them are extremely not interested in being alone, and a couple of them are super invested in having a cards night. (There are five of us, btw, so this is a weird Venn diagram.) And of course the card games they want to play are the kind that require four players, and one of our group (not me) is on the other side of town because of hotel shenanigans.

    Ugh. I’ll suck it up at some point this weekend and learn how to play euchre in the spirit of collegiality, but I am super looking forward to spending most of the rest of it either at the local cat cafe or ensconced in my hotel room in glorious solitude.

    At least my coworker whose internal monologue is fully externalized isn’t on this trip. Heh.

    1. Third or Nothing!*

      OH GOSH I feel you so much. That happens to me once a year when we take our annual trip to visit a vendor. The vendor plans out a whole entire day full of activities (most of which are fun!) so I end up having to People for like 12-13 hours when you take into account the plane ride to get there and checking in to the hotel and all. Then the next morning we visit their office and have a meeting to discuss any issues, learn any new software, or whatever. The only downtime you get on these trips is if you sacrifice sleep. It’s exhausting.

    2. Cap. Marvel*

      You are much more accommodating than I would be. I would cheerfully say I’m done for the day and go lie down.
      Hang in there!

    3. MissGirl*

      I totally get you. I try to compromise when I travel out of town on the social part of it. Traveling tends to shut my social brain down because of SO MUCH CHANGE!! I plead off going out the first night as that’s the worst night mentally for me. It gives me time to check into my Air BNB, run to the grocery store, and do a workout. That helps me prep for the rest of the days. Then I make an effort to go out the second night and have dinner with my team. It’s important to me to build those relationships, and I don’t want to be the odd man out.

    5. Librarian of SHIELD*

      If they don’t see the need for alone time, it’s okay to tell them you don’t feel well. It’s not lying. When I get people’d out, I’m really not feeling like myself, in a way that’s not dissimilar to having a headache or an upset stomach.

    7. Samwise*

      They don’t have to play euchre. Canasta is a very fun three handed game. They can play poker. They can play other card games that do not require pairs or fours.

      Beg off. If you all like each other and know each other, just say, I’m really sorry, but I need my introvert recharging time! Or, You know I become a bear if I don’t get my alone time! Or, I’m completely exhausted, I need to just vegetate back in my room, see ya bright and early tomorrow.

    8. Cartographical*

      As a person who needs hours alone every day, literally, or I won’t sleep, I feel this in my soul. It’s hard bc I actually love being around people and hanging out — but not so much, I can’t do it, I get exhausted and I can’t sleep at the same time when I’m over-socialized.

      That said, I love euchre. It’s a traditional family-at-cottage game in my area, also commonly played at lunch by high school students. If your coworkers can shift their euchre game to lunch or right after work, maybe that could maximize your quiet time. Personally, I’d rather play over lunch hour every day than slog through a single card night. I also don’t drink AND I can’t eat out (food allergies) so I’m “no fun” in general and it sucks, honestly; if I could be fun, I would.

  57. Malory Archer*

    Oh man, I am so glad this is here today. I started a new job last month, and we are all headed to Vegas for a company offsite next week. Apparently my department head is planning to take us out to a nightclub one of the nights…

    What on earth does one wear to a “company Vegas nightclub outing”?? *facepalm*

    1. merp*

      Tbh I would have a convenient headache that night, but I’m not much a club-goer so maybe that’s just me.

    2. Blueberry*

      I would say something both fun and reasonably modest. I’d consider how the outfit feels physically, the sensations of the cloth, etc — if the outfit makes you feel fun it’ll help you have fun. But it’s still with coworkers so I’d rule out the mesh shirt for this trip.

    4. RC Rascal*

      I had to do this one time at a Florida nightclub. I was only a couple of years out of college. It was embarrassing watching my bosses get drunk.

      I recommend wearing shorts, cute but not too sexy. Also, plan to leave early. Some of these corporate types are real party animals outside of the office.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        It’s Vegas in January, night time temps in the 40s and 50s. Not shorts, for me.

        I like the ‘business casual with a little extra bling’. You could maybe even (gasp) show shoulders, once you leave your coat at the coat check. But not spaghetti straps.

    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Pajamas, if I can suddenly develop “indigestion” after the end of my job commitments for the day but before everybody leaves for the nightclub.

      If it’s a better idea to actually attend with the rest of the team, then I’d go with business (jeans allowed) casual. There will be tourists at the club wearing all kinds of super-casual gear or skimpy clubwear. However, you’ll still be with co-workers. I like my co-workers to see me only in office-appropriate attire.

    8. CupcakeCounter*

      This is the exact situation where a LBD saves the day. If you don’t already have one that you would feel comfortable wearing around your boss and coworkers, I recommend a boat neck, fit and flare style that hits right around the knee. The cut is almost universally flattering and can be dressed up for Vegas with some flashy costume jewelry and fun shoes (while also being appropriate for a wedding, job interview, or a funeral depending on styling).

      1. Malory Archer*

        Ooo, I like this idea a lot. I’ll be sure to pack one.

        An interesting update – it was my immediate supervisor who told us all over Slack that this outing was rumored, and when a couple of us brought it up in our team meeting our department head was like ??????

        …so, it might not be real. But I’ll be prepared anything, thanks to your excellent guidance, all!

    9. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      “Well it’s been fun but the loud music and flashing lights are giving me a killer headache, I’m going to go lie down now,” at the start of Hour 2 of the clubbing excursion.

    11. Diahann Carroll*

      Wear nice jeans and a cute top with sensible, but attractive shoes for walking and dancing. Bring a jacket (vegan, faux leather) to keep you warm for when you leave.

  58. Betty*

    I did a job as a job share with another independent contractor at the end of last year. It was a big deal and a bit of a stretch job for both of us, as well as being a pilot project for the client that they were doing partly as a learning experience to inform the direction of their future business. We messed up in some elements of the delivery. Not catastrophically, but I think we basically tried to stretch the budget too thin and ended up skimping out on materials that weren’t durable enough for the run of the project. Also, a third party we hired as a subcontractor (who has worked with my co-contractor before but not me, but I know a bit about and was happy to use) messed up a bit too. However, the overall customer feedback from the project has been hugely positive and I know the client got a lot out of working with us as external contractors who could bring a lot of expertise to help them be more ambitious with this kind of project than they otherwise would have done.

    We’re supposed to be meeting with the client for a feedback meeting/debrief next week now it’s all over. My attitude is that mistakes were made on all sides (the install was very difficult in part because of the client’s failure to communicate some really important site restrictions beforehand, and to provide all the in-house staff they said they were going to) and we should use it as a genuine opportunity to be professional and move forward together. (It helps that I’m about to go off on maternity leave for a year so won’t be available for the next round of this potentially annual project anyway, whereas my co-contractor will.) I still don’t understand why some things didn’t work out, or how the subcontractor’s bit didn’t work out as everything he said he was doing seemed perfectly sensible to me. But we can’t deny that stuff went wrong that we were responsible for, and I think we will look foolish and irresponsible if we do.

    My co-contractor’s attitude is that we need to go in with all guns blazing prepared to defend ourselves and our professional reputations. She wants to have a pre-meeting with me to “prepare”, which I am sure will turn into her trying to create a “party line” for us to stick to, involving having followed standard procedures and so on.

    I’m planning to say what I was going to say anyway, but I am concerned that she is going to both embarrass me and be upset with me for admitting any mistakes. To be honest, I don’t want to work with her again. Our professional priorities are too different. But I don’t want to sit there and openly contradict her or tell her off for being unprofessional in front of a big client that I know she wants to be “in” with. I don’t know if there’s anything helpful I can say in our pre-meeting to persuade her to just… be human. And that it’s better to admit obvious mistakes than to be weirdly defensive about them. Or scripts I can use in the actual feedback meeting to basically say, “Come on, pull yourself together, you know we messed that bit up.”

    1. Betty*

      Also, she can be a bit histrionic and over-emotional generally, so there’s a real risk she might do something awful like cry if she gets really stressed. She cried at one point during the install and just sat there crying (didn’t take herself off to have a moment or anything) and I was so embarrassed *I* left the room.

      AND everyone has kindly agreed to hold the meeting at my actual house because I’m so pregnant I can barely walk, so I can’t just leave if it gets awkward!

      1. Betty*

        Oh goodness, and the cherry on the top of the cake is that she used to date the subcontractor, “Fergus” (I knew this, I still thought he was professionally suitable for the role, still stand by our decision to use him based on what we knew of him and the project, the subcontractor himself is EXTREMELY professional and it was in no way awkward) and is REALLY emotionally invested in “defending” him. She suggested inviting Fergus to the meeting. The client declined as one of the things they want to discuss is “the suitability of third party contractors”.

        I don’t think they should use him next year as he is more experienced in X and it became clear they need someone who is more experienced in Y, even though both X and Y will be required. She has told me privately (in an emotional message) that if they won’t use Fergus next year then she doesn’t want to be involved with manufacture and install at all! *tosses hair flouncily* I think she’s being an idiot and will talk herself out of the job over it because the client clearly REALLY doesn’t want to use him again, and the whole thing is incredibly teenage. “If my friend can’t come to your party then I don’t want to come either!” “Er…OK, then neither of you come.” “Wait, WHAT?!” I’m sure Fergus will be fine with it because he’s a big boy with a decade’s professional experience and this stuff happens.

        Urgh, sorry, this is really tl;dr but it’s been a while since our delivery was finished and it’s just all coming flooding back as I type!

    2. Stornry*

      In the pre-meeting she wants, you could try this: “Look, we both know some things did not work as well as we’d planned. We’ll sound a lot more professional if we acknowledge them and decide on how we make sure similar issues don’t come up again.” And then work that out between you. Identify all the shortcomings and how to address them so that next time, you’re prepared. Vendor didn’t provide information? Figure out what you’ll need and ask for it before you need it; check site restrictions yourself, find out who’ll you’ll need to contact, etc. If she is not prepared to do that, have those answers ready yourself — if the client mentions it and you’re partner blazes, you can be the calm one and say, “Yes, I see what you mean. My/our thoughts on addressing that in future is to…”

    3. Aly_b*

      You’re the one in it so obviously I can’t judge, but it sounds like you might both be coming in more adversarially than needed. At least in my corner of the industry, a debrief is for lessons learned and usually has a tone more of figuring out how to work together in the future rather than allocating blame. I would try to use framing more like how you’ve described the issue with the subcontractor having more experience in x, and them really needing more y. That’s useful because they can take away that you get what they’re looking for and they can make that focus clearer next time. No one did something wrong by you not guessing that’s what they needed, but knowing what you know now, here’s where you’d see potential process improvements. No idea how to get your partner on board with that approach though. Worst case scenario all you can really do is be very calm and collected and be as collaborative as you can manage. You’ll look good doing that even if she doesn’t get on board, particularly if you’re not that worried about souring that relationship.

    4. Dr. Anonymous*

      Have some tea or something available in the kitchens I you can invite her to go get Herself some if she loses it during the meeting. That way she has someplace to go and be unglued and a reason to leave the room besides the obvious fact that she’s crying.

  59. Jaid*

    Any weird things you do at work?

    I fist bump my cubicle fitting when I exit, because I build up static electricity like, whoa. You can actually hear the discharge…

    2. Third or Nothing!*

      I bring my own soap to the bathroom because I’m allergic to sulfates and all the bathroom soap has SLS. So I have this tiny travel bottle of Dr Bronner’s living on my desk.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        I started doing that since regular soap dries out my hands during the winter and I get cracked cuticles. I’m a Dr. Bronners fangirl at this point.

        1. Third or Nothing!*

          It’s good stuff, right? I use it as body wash and dish soap too. And I grate up the bars to make my own laundry soap.

          Side note: avoiding SLS is annoying as all get out.

    3. Cap. Marvel*

      I talk to the printer or other electronics when they don’t work.
      Printer jam? “Buddy, you and I are going to have words if you don’t have my agendas ready in time for this meeting.”
      Computer freeze? “There’s no reason to be so cold, you punk.”
      Phone ringing too loudly? “Quiet, no one wants to hear you.”

      2. Stornry*

        I do that too! When our new copier was installed, I joked that the perfect Halloween costume for it was to add a plunger off to one side and a skirt with large circles and it could go as a Dalek. I think it heard me and has been a bit cranky for just me ever since.

        1. Cap. Marvel*

          I’m glad I’m not the only one! Although one of my SVPs caught me talking to the printer yesterday; I’ve learned to talk to it more quietly.
          Maybe feed the copier some paper and it will stop being cranky.

      3. Sunflower Sea Star*

        Same! Boss once overheard me talking to the copier:
        “Oh, come on! We’ve talked about this before! You know you can’t keep doing this to me whenever I’m on a time crunch!”
        Could have been very embarrassing but he just said “You’re nicer than me. I just kick the *&*&% thing!”

    4. magnusarchivist*

      When I worked in a library that had a large portrait of the founder hanging just inside the front door, I’d say goodnight to him when I shut the place down every evening.

      1. Chaordic One*

        In a similar vein, about one-third of the office building where I work is a repurposed and remodeled furniture warehouse turned into office space and rumored to be haunted. (The remaining two-thirds is a new building built in the last ten years.) There are employees on the swing shift who are afraid to go to the basement offices in the old part of the building. Anyway, I talk to the ghosts and say things like, “Goodnight, boys,” when I’m leaving.

    5. we're basically gods*

      We’re supposed to lock our computers when we leave, which is good practice, but I constantly forget, so every time I get up to use the bathroom, I get to the door, then have to turn around and lock my computer.

    6. Square Root of Minus One*

      I do that too! For the same reason I don’t use my hands to open the doors. In winter and summer, when heating or AC is on, it accumulates static like crazy. It hurts less when I use my forearm than my hand.
      In another office (I’m the record holder of moving around at my job, at 6 different desks in 18 months), I had cut up a rubber glove and put a finger on the handle of my door. It drew a LOT of “shrewd” comments.

    7. NoLongerStuckInRetailHell*

      I had kind of a similar situation at work. I worked for a large retail store and we got in a new kind of cart that caused me to build up a large amount of static electricity. Seriously, by the time I wheeled it all the way across the store from the backroom to my department, the next object or person I touched would result in a flash of light and a painful shock! So I had to touch an endcap every few feet to dissipate the static electricity with much milder shocks.

    8. Retail not Retail*

      It’s not too weird because sometimes your hands are full, but I take any excuse to kick a gate open.

      And in the same vein as talking to electronics, I’ll talk to animals that definitely don’t listen. This week I asked a duck, “You know you can fly, right?” bc he was struggling to follow everyone else through fence slats.

  60. Smedley*

    I’ve worked in my current position for 8 years, and always had excellent feedback on my work. The last three years have been extremely stressful, due to a new department head who, we all agree, seems to have some sort of cognitive disability and a really bad temper. I’ve struggled with depression and anxiety all my life, but I was able to control the symptoms for most of my adulthood – until I started working under this person. Last year I had a couple of instances when I cried and had to leave work early in reaction to verbal abuse and I received a warning for being “disruptive” (I don’t think the person who was abusing me was punished at all). Three months ago I ended up getting a note from my doctor that stated I needed accommodation for my mental health and HR agreed that for a three-month test period, I could reduce my hours from 40 to 30 per week and work from home two days a week. My direct supervisor has only had good things to say about this arrangement and is constantly telling me how responsive and productive I’ve been; just last week she encouraged me to get another note to extend the arrangement. Yesterday we met with HR, and suddenly the tone changed. I was told that I could have another three months, but that “you or someone else” would need to work 40 hours a week in this position. At the same time, they produced a revised job description that eliminated a portion of my job that had previously been estimated as taking 40% of my time, and which no one else in our office would be able or qualified to do! My therapist wonders if this is a ploy so that they can argue in court that accommodating me at 30 hours a week is an unreasonable accommodation and that by reducing my hours by 25% I can’t do 40% of my job. I know the ADA isn’t necessarily clear on what constitutes an unreasonable accommodation, but can they argue that it is unreasonable after they have granted it for 6 months and have told me that I am doing my job well? I am really frightened that I due to my condition and the conditions of my job, I am not going to be able to act in a way that they don’t consider “disruptive” if I have to be there and suffer abuse 40 hours a week.

    1. Mockingjay*

      I think you need a real expert and should consult an employment lawyer. Do the usual: make sure you have copies (electronic and print) of emails, performance reviews, etc., at home and not on your work machine. Make a timeline of events. Gather any other information to give the lawyer a clear picture of what’s going on.

      You note that you didn’t have problems at work until the new department head came in. Is it possible to transfer to a different department? That could be a workable solution. See what the lawyer says.

    2. Warm Wishes*

      I’m sorry this is happening to you! With all the warmth and empathy possible over the internet, I’d encourage you to separate your suspicion that your department head my have a disability from your concerns with their work and their temper. People with disabilities of all kinds (physical, cognitive, mental health conditions… so many!) can be great at their jobs, just like people with and without disabilities of all kinds can be bad at their jobs. Disability or not, it’s not okay for your department head to treat you the way that they are, and I’m so sorry you’re going through this.

      I don’t imagine you meant it this way, but “This person has a cognitive disability, and so is a bad manager” can just as easily be rephrased as “this person has a mental health condition, and so is a bad employee” and I’d hate for that kind of abelist thinking to happen to either you or your manager. And, like I said, I hope that’s not what you meant! I’d encourage you (and your department head, if I could) to be thoughtful about the connections you make between disability and job performance.

      If you haven’t already, I’d suggest that you check out the Ask Jan website. It’s a great resource for job-related accommodation questions. Wishing you all the best!

  61. mssparks*

    Advice for job hunting while trying for a baby? I just finished my master’s and will start looking for my first job in the field soon (analytics, if it makes a difference). My current job is extremely unchallenging and unrelated to what I want to be doing, but it’s a well-run, family friendly workplace. Due to age, my husband and I don’t want to wait more than a few months to start a family, but I suspect it’ll be harder to find a job the longer I wait after graduation. Any suggestions?

    1. Intel Analyst Shell*

      I may be missing the mark on what you’re asking but I’d start job hunting and trying to conceive at the same time. Worst case both could take years to happen and from experience you shouldn’t put your life on hold for a possible job or possible baby. (It took me three years to get pregnant and I waited to do so much stuff ‘just in case’ I got pregnant.) Good luck on both!

      1. mssparks*

        Thanks! Yes, I guess that’s what I’m really asking, if my plan is a bad idea for reasons that didn’t occur to me.

      2. Frankie*

        ^what Shell said. It’s so annoying but you have to do it all in parallel, because you truly don’t know how long things will take.

        FWIW, if/when you do conceive, you honestly even have to continue for a while making plans as if you are NOT pregnant, because pregnancies can be so easy to lose in early stages (doctors don’t even want to see you until you’re 2-3 months along already in my experience).

    2. DinoGirl*

      This is an unknown I advise people not to make plans around. As of now, you’re trying. Some people try for weeks, some try for years…you don’t know what path life will take you down. Do what you need to do re: job searching and if you become pregnant during or after, you’ll figure it out. Knowing that’s your goal sooner or later, just review benefits and look to size of company with a mind towards how family-friendly they seem. You will want to know your state paid leave benefit, if any. FMLA requires you to work 1 year the company to be eligible for that leave (and only for companies with over 50 employees). Things like that.
      There’s a lot to be said for having the security of a known, family friendly employer when you embark in parenthood, but again, there’s so many unknowns here, it sounds like you’re ready to just move on and find something in your industry.

      1. Anonny*

        Another vote for parallel. Never know how long either will take. On the job hunting end, it has taken me as much as 1.5 years of active hunting and interviewing in the past to land a new one. On the baby end, it took me 3+ years of very seriously trying to conceive (after already a few years of “seeing if it happens”), and just the accomplishments/ jobs in those last years set me up better in my career experience- and pay-wise that I’ll reap the benefits much longer. Cheryl Sandberg’s advice is problematic, but “leave when you leave” worked for me. Not that I’d wish it on anybody, but when I finally did have a successful pregnancy, it was both emotionally and medically complicated so I avoided telling anyone at work for a long time. By the time I would have felt comfortable, it was clear the company was really struggling, and I was able to negotiate a better severance during the layoffs without them even being aware of my pregnancy.

  62. Can I get a Wahoo?*

    Bathroom Rant incoming…

    My office has ten people in a small space. There is one bathroom in the physical office, a single staff. I turn on the fan every time I use the bathroom because 1) sound muffling 2) smell muffling. No one else does. Why?? It’s so much better for everyone! It’s an awkward set up so it’s better for EVERYONE if they use the fan. Use the fan people!!!

        1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

          Turn the fan on, and put packing tape taut over the switch so no one can turn it off. Chances are, people will assume management or maintenance did it, and leave it alone.

    2. Filosofickle*

      For me, I’ve felt self-conscious turning on a fan because in my mind the fan = pooping and I don’t want to announce that. In a way you’re saying I’M NOT POOPING if you don’t turn on the fan. However I totally agree if everyone used the fan all the time, it would no longer have that implication and be better for everyone.

      1. Can I get a Wahoo?*

        I get that…but when I’m the next person in the bathroom and someone didn’t use the fan, I can clearly tell that they poo’d. Everybody does it, I’d just prefer not to smell it!

        1. Filosofickle*

          Well, I don’t poop at the office so it wasn’t me! (I only recently learned, due to the lengthy conversations on this site, that people do and it’s normal. Not sure where I picked up the belief that one can’t do that.)

    3. Mockingjay*

      Actually, wiring the fan and the light together would be an easy fix. Can you request that? The switch is available for about $20/25 at any big box hardware store.

    4. Massive Dynamic*

      A few jobs ago, I had a cube right next to the one bathroom in the middle of the office – I kept that fan running all day long when it was unoccupied (kept turning it back on as I passed by it open). I had no time nor patience to be polluted out of being able to work at my desk and our receptionist had an extreme sensitivity to all scents, so sprays were out of the question.

    5. PollyQ*

      I’m not arguing against people using the fan, but I will say that the sound of noisy, rattling fans is one of my pet peeves, so I might avoid using them just for that reason.

  63. Purple Rain*

    Is my partner in a hostile working environment?

    -Boss’ assistant has recently been positioned outside his door and another co-worker’s door so she can “watch them”. She used this exact wording when talking to another employee. Never mind they are all adults?
    -Boss yells, gets visibly frustrated, holds herself to a much different standard than her employees, tries to poach prospects, leaves work early for personal reasons, told my partner he could no longer work 7:30-4:30 and his hours had to be 8-5 so upper management would see her team there until 5 p.m.
    -Boss has told him if he wants to bring in a mediator to talk about the situation, she won’t go.
    -Another employee threatened to go to HR and she backed off.
    -Boss questions him constantly about his salary after two and a half years of working for her (he transferred from another team, took a slight cut in responsibilities but not in pay.
    -Boss is making disparaging comments to her peer level colleagues regarding partner.
    -Boss makes comments to my partner regarding his demographic such as how anxious she feels when walking past a room full of middle-age white men.

    Partner has been in this job for a few years and he’s starting to normalize boss’ behavior, so I just wanted to ask for a gut check. Thanks!

    2. RC Rascal*

      legally, a hostile work environment only applies if someone has already make a formal discrimination complaint.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Legally, probably not, except for the last bullet.

      Non-legally, yes.

      Also, you *CANNOT* force your partner to get out (though I would suggest that your partner gets out).

    4. Sunflower Sea Star*

      Same things and similar things are happening at the work place of my adult child. Their first job in their profession after college graduation. Furniture rearranged so they can see everyone’s screens, micromanaging, mandatory complete silence unless manager has given permission, the butts in seats at all times mentality, talking sh*t about employees behind each others backs trying to play them off each other and manipulate people, timing bathroom breaks, yelling and throwing things at employees, etc. It’s so hard to see them thinking it’s normal! No matter how many times I’ve explained this isn’t normal, they just say “every workplace has its jerks. This is how it is!”
      No, no it is not.

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        I was in a similar situation re: dysfunctional work environments. Hourly staff asked to work off the clock, screaming/verbal abuse, bullying, discrimination, harassment, OSHA violations, wage violations, labor law violations, health code violations, retaliation for going to HR, etc.

        My mom worked in a field where if you encountered these things, you could go to HR and get it dealt with, with few repercussions. And she was constantly telling me this was unacceptable, and that I should report things to HR, or refuse to break rules, or stand up for myself.

        She was right: it was toxic and wrong. But the only ways to deal with it were a) stay, accept that the rules in this field are dysfunctional, and learn to navigate them or b) leave, and switch to another field entirely, which is very difficult with no relevant experience. It was completely unhelpful to have her telling me that I shouldn’t be doing certain things at work, when I was the person who was there 40 hours a week and was developing pretty solid survival and self-preservation skills.

        1. Sunflower Sea Star*

          But this isn’t normal in her field and she sincerely thinks all workplaces are like this. She’s in a role that could be done in ANY industry (like accounting, or IT, etc.) so even if this was “the rules of the field” she could switch fields.
          (And if it WAS the way a field worked, that’s still wrong and NO ONE should be expected to put up with abuse at work. Period. There are more than the two options you listed. Please don’t ever tell anyone that they have to be abused because that’s “the rules of the field”)

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      From what you say, it would not rise to the level of Hostile work environment, it’s just a case of a toxic boss.

      Hostile work environment is a legal term that refers to discrimination based on a legally protected attribute, such as race, gender, religion. If Boss only does 1, 2, or 5 to white men in her department, while letting women or PoC have an earlier schedule, not be watched, etc, then yes, there’s a case for hostile work environment, but you don’t mention anything like that.
      #7 comes closer, but wouldn’t be enough on its own.

      Overall, this is not normal, it is not ok, it is toxic, but it is not a legally actionable Hostile work environment.

  64. little e*

    It’s been a tough week for me.

    I have a really hard time with being grumpy at work. I find it impossible to cheerfully say “Good morning, Sue!” and engage in small talk when I’m not feeling like it’s a good morning at all. And I’m very task-focused, so much so that when I’m in the break room getting more water, I can’t come out of “work mode” to chat about weekend plans with any kind of social grace. Not to mention that I’m awful at small talk at the best of times. At my company full of cheerful and TALKATIVE extroverts, I definitely stand out and I know it. I try to make up for it by being friendly and accomodating when anyone talks to me about something work-related, and my manager has said that people like working with me, but I know I’d get farther and be better-liked if I was able to small talk with these people.

    Anyway, this week. I was grumpy on Monday morning, and made a snarky comment in my team meeting (something that could have come across as a joke if it was said in a different tone), and it came across as rude, which made my manager snap at me. I apologized to everyone in the meeting later in the day and they were gracious about it, but it was a little bit of a wake-up call.

    I know this habit of mine is bad. I know being here for 7 years, working with people that irritate me, dealing with a dysfunctional company culture and a team culture that is a little too negative, and being too comfortable being grumpy all contribute. It makes me wonder if I’m just naturally an unpleasant person.

    All that to say, I’m trying drinking caffeinated tea in the morning now, to try to give me a little boost of energy and make me a little more pleasant to be around. It seems to be working.

    I don’t really want advice on how to chat. But if anyone can give me jedi hugs or their own personal stories of overcoming grumpiness, I’d like to hear those.

    1. Crazy Broke Asian*

      Jedi hug from me.

      When I was at uni, I was very moody, and occasionally I woke up in a really horrible mood and ended up slamming the doors when I came into class. Thankfully I was always early, so only one or two people saw me stomping around and grumbling.

      1. little e*

        Thank you. I’m usually one of the earliest arrivals at work but maybe that’s my problem – I sink into work mode and can’t do the “arriving and settling in” chatter.

      2. tangerineRose*

        I’m not a morning person, I’m terrible at small talk, and honestly I’m kinda shy, so my tendency is to smile, say hi, and go about my business. Sometimes the smile and friendly hi are just an act.

    2. fposte*

      Maybe it’s time to look for something new; 7 years is plenty long enough and you don’t want to stagnate at a place that’s dysfunctional and negative.

    3. Former Non Profit*

      I’ve tried to build up a human speak ‘n’ spell of, like, 6 phrases to cover surface-level interactions. I have a reputation for being friendly and upbeat (…internally, I am a teen goth who sighs all the time), but it’s all super shallow. Weather! It’s a cliché for a reason, but it works so well! Add in something about how the weather impacts you as a person (“It’s a good day to lay around and read.” “My apartment gets nice light on days like this.”)

    4. Former Non Profit*

      Also, as someone who once used the phrase, “Let me spin my chair around and tell you about the failure of capitalism” in a corporate departmental meeting, I’m trying to incorporate the WAIT (Why Am I Talking) method into more of my meeting chatter.

      1. Guenhwyvar*

        I could ABSOLUTELY see myself saying this at work, hahaha. Thankfully I don’t know of many librarians known for being staunch hardline capitalists, so it’s not worst case scenario.

    5. Wandering_beagle*

      Your comment about “it makes me wonder if I’m just naturally an unpleasant person” struck a chord with me.

      I often feel this way, especially at work, and it’s like I’m watching myself have a bad attitude or feel negative and I can’t stop it. For me, it’s because I have mild depression. I’m currently in therapy, and likely will try meds at some point.

      So, I don’t know what your situation is, but depression can often manifest itself as irritation or grumpiness. Yes, sometimes it’s just our personalities or maybe you have just been at that job too long and you’re ready to move on. But sometimes, that edge we are feeling can be something else. And if you’ve been depressed long enough without being diagnosed, it can feel like it’s your personality.

      1. little e*

        I’ve often thought about that. I’m functional and present enough to know that I’m not seriously depressed but when I get these irritable swings it makes me wonder if that’s “the real me.” I know exactly how you feel when you say you’re watching it happen and you can’t stop it. Internally I’m just going “why? why?? why??? stop it!”

        1. valentine*

          I think the lede is buried in the negative culture and dysfunction. If you’re grumpy at a restaurant or a movie theater, aren’t you pleasant to the server or ticket taker? There’s something about these people that kill your desire to make an effort. That said, you’ve got to boost your reputation, as you don’t know how vital it is to them and how close they may be to the last straw from you.

    6. Granger*

      Hey little e, I’m a late reply, but on the off-chance that you’ll see this, I have struggled with this same exact thing and I found something that has REALLY helped me! I have never met a more night owl / NOT A MORNING PERSON than myself (that I know of obviously), and I detest small talk, so I really struggled with this issue. I can’t remember how I came to have this realization, but I overcame it by focusing on my innate desire to have good manners. Seems silly, right? My re-interpreting the frustrating extroverted, morning person expectations into wanting to present myself through having good manners changed how it all *felt* (still not a morning person obviously!!). idk. sending you good thoughts (at midnight LOL).

  65. Phryne Fisher*

    One year ago, I had a great phone interview with a recruiter. He gave me the impression that I was a shoo-in, but a week later he told me the manager was going in a different direction. (Womp womp.) He was very apologetic and told me to reach out to him if any roles piqued my interest.

    The company has now opened a req that I’m interested in. What do I say when I reach out to him?

    “We spoke a year ago about the analyst role. I submitted my resume for the analyst role that just opened up. Please keep me in mind.”

    Do I need to provide all the details about how he thought I was a great fit and TOLD ME to reach out to him on the future? Should I reach out to him at all? (This is a serious question.. I’ve erred in my early career by overstepping bounds.)

    1. londonedit*

      I don’t think there would be any overstepping if you modified your text slightly to read ‘We spoke a year ago about the analyst role, and at the time you suggested that I should get in touch if any other roles piqued my interest in the future. I noticed that you’re advertising another analyst role, and I would like to submit an application’. I don’t think you need to go into detail about how they said you were a great fit, or to contact them in advance of sending in an application for the job – I’d just use the text I’ve suggested there as the accompanying message to go along with your application. Like, hey there, we spoke before, you said to apply if anything came up, so here I am!

    2. DinoGirl*

      No, they likely have all this noted in their applicant system or file, no need to go into the details. But you could frame it as, “You might remember speaking to me last year about the Tea Pot Creator position, which I felt was a very positive discussion. I see an interesting opportunity for a Lead of Chocolate Tea Pots and I’d love the opportunity to catch up since our last conversation about this new opportunity!” It’s a gentler reminder you previously had a positive conversation.

  66. Analytical*

    I work in a huge organization and our employer offers us access to a popular, nationally recognized weight management program. It’s optional and anonymous and only mentioned once or twice a year when it’s time to enroll. A coworker of mine is insisting that offering this program is anti body positivity and stirring up a lot of conversation about how inappropriate it is that this is offered to us. I disagree, we’re not ‘encouraged’ to participate in it any more than the other smattering of programs offered, it’s just presented to us. And while I’m not interested in participating others might be and they may benefit from it.

    What are your thoughts?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I think your coworker is extraordinarily sensitive. Assuming that the 2x a year notice is “We offer access to X program, if you’re interested more information is here”, that’s perfectly ok. It’s a benefit. Benefits are going to be advertised.

    2. DinoGirl*

      Leading our employee wellness program, I would occasionally get this type of complaint. It’s a struggle. These programs are sometimes required to be made available by the insurer to try and help with group rates.
      Maybe I’m biased because of my role, but I never viewed it as intended to be shaming, especially since it was not targeted or required…in my experience, many employees request those opportunities! I think those not interested should simply disregard it and that’s it’s nice it’s being made easily available for the contingent that IS interested.

    3. Disco Janet*

      Do they also offer free enrollment into other wellness programs that aren’t weight-based? That would be the decider for me.

    4. Threeve*

      It’s understandable when that kind of thing hits a nerve, but she’s not being reasonable. Your company isn’t pushing it aggressively or taking note of who is participating. Maybe someone could say “I would agree if it was thrown in our faces, but people’s personal decisions about their weight and diet are personal, and offering a particular option isn’t the same as making a judgment call.”

      Also, honestly, if she complained to me specifically, I would probably think “does she think I should have strong feelings about body positivity because I’m chubby?”

    5. CatCat*

      Your coworker needs to calm down. My spouse’s ex-Job offered such a benefit to employees and spouses and we were thrilled to be able to use the benefit. I’d be pissed at someone trying to take the benefit away from everyone just because that person has some sort of bug up their ass about it.

    6. Red or ange*

      I think those programs are a crock. What is the rationale for offering this from the company? I’ve only ever seen this under the auspices of a health/wellbeing program, and that’s troubling as these programs are not actually about health/wellness, and conflating weight loss with health/wellness is hugely damaging.

      I also think that offering this to someone who has significant issues with weight loss, eating disorders etc. could be problematic.

      1. Jedi Squirrel*

        “Those programs” is so generic that your comment is not helpful. There are a wide-range of weight-loss programs, with varying degrees of research behind them. Not all of them are a crock, and one size definitely doesn’t fit all.

        I also think that offering this to someone who has significant issues with weight loss, eating disorders etc. could be problematic.

        Nobody is pointing fingers here. If the company we’re sending this only to fat employees, then yes, this would be an issue. But it’s being offered to everyone. Not everyone is is interested in weight management because of obesity issues. Some people might just want to shed some holiday weight or use to help manage other health issues, like diabetes.

    7. Mia 52*

      This is a benefit that a lot of people may want, and if they don’t push it, then it’s fine. Offering adoption services counseling doesn’t mean the office is “telling everyone that they MUST have a child.”. She needs to chill.

    8. Mediamaven*

      It’s a benefit. They should disregard it if they don’t want it but never try to prohibit others from taking advantage. That’s an incredibly selfish person who likes to be victimized instead of appreciating a really cool perk!

    9. LKW*

      Offering opportunities to improve one’s health is not anti-body positivity. That’s like saying employee assistance programs are reminding people about their mental or emotional issues.

      You can be fat and body positive AND eat a healthy diet.

    10. Automated*

      Im kind of with your coworker on this. Specifically because it is advertised by itself twice a year. That to me makes it feel body shamey.

      Now if it were advertised along with other fringe benefits like EAP, corporate discounts, etc in a wellness package of sorts I would not feel that it was a problem. But advertised alone it carries that tone and makes it feel like your company is a bit over focused on weight.

      ***One thing to keep in mind is that some companies took wellness initiatives way too far in the last 5 years. A lot of those programs started out simple like “this is a free program if you want it” then transitioned to “this is mandatory if you dont want a significant premium hike” to “this is mandatory and we want your blood 2× a year to prove compliance” so your coworker could have come from a company like that and figures fighting it early is best. ***

      1. Fikly*

        It’s not actually specified that it’s being advertised by itself. The original comment just says that it’s only advertised once or twice a year, but not if it’s advertised with anything else at the same time.

        And even if it is, if any other benefits are advertised on their own, how is it any different?

    11. RagingADHD*

      Body positivity doesn’t mean nobody can ever discuss or attempt to manage their weight.

      It means that everybody gets to decide for themselves how to care for their own body.

      Your coworker is projecting her own issues onto everyone else, and actively trying to limit the options available to your coworkers, because she personally doesn’t want to use it.

      Nobody is trying to make her use it. If she’s body-positive, she needs to stop trying to dictate how other adults are allowed to care for their own bodies.

      1. Avasarala*

        This this this. Recently people are treating body positivity like feminism: “It means you hate men!” “It means you think women are better!” “It means you should be X type of woman!” No. It means love yourself and do what you want with your body! It’s perfectly possible to include a weight loss program as part of body positivity.

  67. Clueless sister*

    My brother (16 yo) draws as a hobby. His drawings are good enough, I guess, and his friends often pay him to make fanarts and such. He’s thinking to start accepting commissions online. He’s got a DeviantArt account and an Instagram for his drawings, and is looking to create a profile on fiverr.

    I guess my question is: what things do we need to consider? This is really not my field, so I don’t know what are the important things to figure out, especially on the business side.

    Any help is appreciated!

    1. Betty*

      Protecting his work against intellectual property/copyright theft should be #1 on his list. Ensuring he isn’t violating someone else’s copyright should be second.

      And that it’s easy to reduce your prices, hard to increase them. Aim for high-value, high-quality art and charge accordingly.

    2. Blueberry*

      I have only participated in art commissions from the patron’s side. These are some observations of mine:

      1) DO NOT DO IT FOR THE EXPOSURE. There is a term, “F**k you, pay me.” People are always trying to get free art out of artists. Don’t let them.

      2) Half up front, half on delivery is a good payment rule

      3) Sending an update (such as line art) halfway through is a good idea. I’ve really appreciated artists willing to do this.

      4) Be willing to devote up to 1/2 hour doing a little research for a subject one doesn’t know much about. I’ve returned to artists willing to do this for me.

      I also looked up some guidelines written by artists who accept commissions. I’ll put those in my next comment.

      1. Silver Radicand*

        On number two, I actually would say payment should be entirely up front. I have several artist friends and those that have been successful all state payment is up front.

    3. Bananatiel*

      So… this is not legal advice, ha, but I’ve got a BFA and work as a designer, I have friends that are working artists. My working artist friends started getting paid to do work around the same time as your brother. My best advice is doing as much as he can under the table for the next couple of years. Of course it’s not legal, but if he’s hoping to save money for college it’ll help him save more generally. A friend of mine kept most of her business under the table until after she graduated college– it’s a huge part of the reason she was able to graduate without debt.

      As a minor, I’m not sure how much he can do legally to set up a business plus it varies by state to some degree– I have my own Etsy shop I run on the side in the state of Michigan and have a business checking account (with no fees), a DBA (sole proprietorship), a state sales tax license, and a FEIN. Pretty sure the FEIN is overkill. But the pros to having a business account is that it’s easier to track income and expenses for tax purposes.

      There are lots of resources out there online and it’s how I figured out what I needed to do, so a good google deep dive with search inquiries that include your state and the fact that he’s a minor should be helpful.

      I will say, I’ve heard not-great things about fiverr from fellow artists. Granted we’re all much older than your brother and more established. But it doesn’t sound like a place that truly values the work of artists and tends to drive prices down which might not make it worth his time. But to each his own! Could work very well for him starting out.

      1. Ein EIN Steuerexperte*

        Don’t ask me how I know, but when you apply for and get a FEIN (Federal Employer Identification Number) also known as an EIN (Employer Identification Number) or a TIN (Taxpayer Identification Number), write down the information you used to apply for it. This is important because the IRS only wants to issue a single EIN for an individual sole proprietor and the number will follow that person throughout his life (like a social security number). You can change the DBA name anytime you like, and you can have multiple DBA names at the same time.

        If you apply for it online at the IRS.gov website, make sure that you are connected to a printer. When the number is assigned, a confirmation letter will appear on your computer screen but you only have about 5 minutes to print it out and then it disappears. The website won’t let you save a copy of it on your computer, smartphone or on the cloud. You might need a confirmation letter with your EIN on it in order to set up a bank account for the business or to present to an employer or to another business that you contract to do work with.

        It might be worth it to download and print out the SS-4 application form and write down the information you used to apply for the EIN, even if you don’t use the SS-4 application form because you applied for the number online.

        If you lose the number and don’t remember it, or if you need a confirmation letter, you have to call the I.R.S. and if you can’t remember the information you gave when you applied for the EIN years they will say that they are unable to verify your information and they won’t tell you what your number is. Then you’ll have to either write in to find out the number or you can apply for a new one. If you apply for a new one online, you’ll probably get an error message (because you already have an EIN) and the next step is to apply for one by fax or by mail. Applying by fax takes about 5 days, by mail takes about 30. They’ll usually tell you that you already have an EIN and they’ll tell you what it is, but they might go ahead and give you a new one.

        There’s a lot of good information available about EINs on the IRS.gov website, but most people who apply for one never read it beforehand (or even afterwards). They just apply for one and blunder through, often providing a lot of incorrect information when they apply for one in the first place.

    5. Mockingjay*

      I have friends who run side photography businesses. Each website uses a name/trademark banner across any sample pictures posted. These are incorporated into the image so someone can’t download it and use it for free. Recommend your brother do something similar.

    6. Fikly*

      The second he accepts money for fanart, by which I mean art that is based on someone else’s IP, he is looking at potential legal trouble.

      1. Maineah*

        THIS. Fikly is right.

        Fan art is a fun hobby. Fan art is not a legal business unless you get a license from the copyright holder allowing you to make money from their character. (Assuming this is the US or, I believe, Canada or England.)

    1. Brunost*

      (For work, that is).

      Norwegians are oddly concerned with age. It’s expected on CVs, and newspapers usually point out the age of the person being discussed.

      1. 867-5309*

        Brunost! I served “brown cheese” at a party earlier this week. :) (Back in the states after living in Norway.)

        I help with hiring in Norway still and people from other countries will list that they are in Norway with a Norwegian spouse and child… One employer expressed concerns about the validity of my degree because there were no dates.

        Also, health insurance is non-issue when thinking about a job…

    2. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      The toilet! My husband had been stationed in Germany earlier in his career and warned me about the ‘plate’ toilet in our 1950’s duplex on a British military post. And paying to use a public restroom which we knew wasn’t required but you did it because if you didn’t you felt bad and our German friends would laugh at us for complying.

      Traveling was so much easier as was getting around town due to everything being closer and good public transportation. I would rather take the train than Amtrak – way more glamourous even in Eastern Europe. We traveled so much for soooo cheap.

      Outdoor markets that are so sumptuous and delightful that I never wanted to leave and they went on forever!

      Small cars, even smaller than our Mazda6. This was the time of the Smart car puttering around the parkplatz of Europe.

      Meat was expensive!

      Of course the depth of history

      Saying hello when you enter a store. No matter where the store person was, there was a hello and you responded back. I do that now and many people seem delighted by it.

      Grocery shopping – Europeans do it more frequently during the week while I, the American, shopped weekly which meant a lot of groceries. The locals would gawk at the amount I was buying (which wasn’t nearly as much as I would have bought if I were shopping in one store, but we went to the commissary and stocked up on staples) and I had to quickly position myself at the end to catch/self-bag all my groceries while the cashier was already done and barking for payment. I earned a Ritter sport after each expedition…

      EGGS! Eggs in Germany are not refrigerated. They’re on a regular shelf, fresh as a daisy with dirt and feathers. I spent a lot of time scouring the cold case and finding no eier! Until I fumbled through ‘wo sind die eier?” and she looked at me like I was crazy wrong and walked me to the shelves.

      I miss Europe. The short 29-mos we were there we visited 26 countries and 12 of 16 German states.

      1. All Hail Queen Sally*

        Ages ago, when I was quite young and first stationed at the American Embassy in the Netherlands, I went to a grocery store and asked at the cheese counter for “500 kilograms of cheese.” The woman asked “500 grams?” And I replied, “Yes, 500 kilograms.” She then looked at me strangely and said, very slowly, “NO, 500 GRAMS.” At that point, I realized I had been asking for over a thousand pounds of cheese. I got better with the metric system real fast!

    3. Construction Safety*

      Saying “No, thanks, I’m stuffed”. has an entirely different meaning in British speaking countries.

      1. Betty*

        What is the other meaning? I’m English and to me that means “No thanks, I’ve had so much to eat already that I’m completely full”.

          1. Hello, I'd like to report my boss*

            English here, never heard that means “pregnant”.

            Either it’s regional or someone is pulling your leg!

    4. Automated*

      Im going to say Australia counts as Europe for this one. Aussies don’t hate me please ha!

      How chill everyone is with alcohol at work and with their undergrad students.

      How relaxed work was. Yes we got stuff done but being “busy” was not an accomplishment and friday after 3 no one was on campus.

      How your job was not a talking point. Seriously. If i asked “what do you do” people were put off.

      That “wa**er” is actually a super rude term! But c**t is not.

      Being called a yank or yankee when I am from the southern US.

      Being treated by a 26 yo MD (they go straight to med school from high school in Oz).

      Serving sizes. I was starving the first 2 weeks but then lost weight and felt amazing without trying.

      1. Donkey Hotey*

        Ask anyone in the world and a Yankee is someone from the US.
        Ask anyone in the US and a Yankee is someone from New England.
        Ask anyone in New England and a Yankee is someone from New Hampshire.
        Ask anyone in New Hampshire and a Yankee is someone whose idea of a good time is to give tourists the wrong directions.

  69. LGC*

    I just need to confess my own stupidity.

    So, yesterday one of my employee (who sits right next to my desk) was having a trainee work with her. Trainee asks her for ibuprofen (this is about 11) and she has no idea what he’s talking about and they go on in circles for five minutes.

    I pop out an earbud and tell them, “I think he means Tylenol.” That seemed to settle it.

    I go home later (around 6) and get ready to work out…and it is then and only then that I realize that I should have said Advil. Oops! It’s kind of the same thing except not at all.

      1. LGC*

        They wouldn’t be able to Google – policy is for phones to be away and most computers don’t have internet access. (It’s not needed for the job.)

        1. Threeve*

          They can still look at the pill bottle. Tylenol is clearly labeled as acetaminophen, not ibuprofen. And people tend to default to whatever they use most frequently when they’re talking about it, but that doesn’t mean they really care or have a sensitivity to any other kind of OTC pain reliever. Dontcha worry.

  70. Sollux*

    Are there any reputable, fully-online coding bootcamps out there?

    I’ve been searching and finding a lot of bootcamps run by Trinity, which is not well-regarded and doesn’t have a very thorough curriculum. (And I want thoroughness; I have some programming experience but need the structure of school/bootcamp to figure out what to learn next.) The reputable bootcamps seem to not offer online options. So I’m hoping the AAM hivemind can help! My specific needs:

    – online/remote
    – part-time (able to work around a job)
    – preferably full stack development, but I’m curious to see anything that’s out there

    Any ideas?

    1. I Heart JavaScript*

      Not sure if you’re still reading / checking, but take a look at Hack Reactor Remote. They have both a part time and full time option and are probably the best in the space.

  71. Job Carousel*

    A bit of a weird question – in y’all’s experience, how common is it for higher ups in certain fields to keep changing jobs/companies/organizations every few years in their career?

    These are a few examples of people I’ve known/known of:

    – “Cindy” was hired as an academic dean of my graduate school when I was attending, but despite being a very popular hire, she ended up getting in everyone’s bad graces through unilateral decision making and was fired after less than 18 months. I saw her LinkedIn page recently and saw that in the last 20 years she’s worked as an academic dean at 8 different institutions all across the country, each stay lasting between 1-4 years.

    – “Priscilla” was hired as a top executive at a company I used to work for. Prior to this she had been working her way up the ranks at other companies for about twenty years, staying about 5 years at each organization.
    Immediately after being hired she began making a lot of changes, some popular, some not so popular. Ultimately she chose a political battle she couldn’t win, and she was axed after about two years. She now holds a very high, publicly-visible position at a tech giant.

    – “Annie” is very successful and holds a very prominent position at her current company, but over the course of her ~25-year career she has worked at about half a dozen different companies in her industry, many requiring cross-country moves (since there are two major hubs in this industry, one East Coast and one West Coast). I don’t know Annie personally, but studying her career trajectory it seems like every move comes with a vertical move up the organizational hierarchy, which makes me wonder if changing companies is the best/only way to move up in her industry.

    Are cases like these the norm, or is it possible these days to stay long-term (10+ years) at one company/organization and hope for vertical growth with them?

    2. RC Rascal*

      Lots of advice says it’s easier to move up if you switch companies.

      Also, once you are in management you never have to live with the consequences of your decisions if you keep moving. This is really important. Sometimes you get hired to do dirty work, sometimes it’s some muckety’s idea of a good decision. Frequently it’s a bad idea on the ground. Keep moving so you aren’t around when the proverbially s*#t hits the fan.

    5. NW Mossy*

      Frequent moves in upper leadership are quite common, and many executives build their own brand around being the person to swoop in, make change, and move on. It’s pretty normal, I’d say.

      And if you think about, it makes sense as a numbers game for the candidates. Each organization/business line/etc. has a limited number of top leadership positions, so inside candidates have a limited number of options they can go for. External candidates broaden their net to multiple organizations, so the odds that they’ll land something at their preferred level is much higher.

    6. Donkey Hotey*

      Around here, it’s called “diagonal growth” – moving over and up.
      I worked the same job for 14 years until the company closed. Never paid attention to the job market. I learned the hard way that 2 years is average at my (large west coast tech city). Much beyond that and they start to wonder why you aren’t moving/growing/changing.
      Yes, loyalty to a company is dead, but the reverse (company loyalty to an employee) has been dead for decades.

    7. Marion*

      Just speaking for higher education: 20 years as a dean at 8 different universities is a terrible track record. If you’re staying at dean level for 20 years, that ought to be at the same institution, or maybe one move for a significant increase in the prestige of the university. 8 moves should have gotten Cindy from dean up to at least provost. Cindy did not win friends and influence people over the course of her career.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Yep, Cindy’s track record stood out from the other two as not growth related, but having to move often due to, let’s say, bad fit. If I had to guess, at this point the places she’s working now are progressively less selective about that role.

    8. andy*

      It is called failing up. You change companies (or teams), cause problems in every one of them and then get better position elsewhere once damage is done.

      Partly it is because unless you know people in old team or positions personally enough, they wont tell you about problems that happened in previous place. Especially if those problems were political/social.

    9. Job Carousel*

      Thank you all, these answers are very insightful! To those of you who commented about Cindy’s flat trajectory, I tend to agree; my guess is that the same behavioral tendencies that got her fired from my grad school pretty quickly have cropped up in at least some of her other positions as well. I think it makes a lot of sense that, like andy pointed out, maybe her reputation isn’t proceeding her enough to preclude her hiring, though like The New Wanderer pointed out, I think she’s trending toward being hired at less prestigious places (she went from being hired at schools with name recognition to a bunch I don’t recognize). I also really appreciate RC Rascal’s comment about managers being hired to do dirty work and then leaving with their reputations intact as soon as/slightly before things start going south. Overall I’m not sure if these insights are encouraging or discouraging — probably a bit of both! I agree with Donkey Hotey (love the username, btw!) that employer-employee loyalty is long dead, but one thing I really crave at work and seldom receive is feeling like my employer values me enough to want to to invest in my professional development and retain me. I work at an organization that promotes from within like 90% of the time and has many employees that stay 20+ years — but at the same time the organizational politics are off the charts and the culture isn’t great. I’m contemplating my next moves but have always felt like bouncing between a bunch of jobs every few years would mark me as a failure…but I really appreciate the insight that it’s quite common and actually expected in certain industries (including the one I hope to transition into).

  72. Soup2Nuts*

    Any advice on how to decide whether a job is worth relocating for? My partner and I have been on the West Coast in a large city for 10+ years, but one of us might have the opportunity to move to the East Coast for a cool opportunity — but I’m concerned about potential loss of community, whether the pay increase would actually be worthwhile, etc. When is it a good time to go on an “adventure” vs. staying with the stable status quo?

    1. mreasy*

      Think about the weather before you get stuck out here dealing with winters! Signed, a Californian whose career & marriage keeps her in NY.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Research local property taxes as well as state and local income taxes. Also check vehicle insurance rates. A lot of things like these will cost you more than they might on the West Coast. I’m also reminded that when I moved from Seattle to Philadelphia 20 years ago, I was sad to see that some fresh produce was more expensive than I’d gotten used to. (One striking trade-off: you can’t get a good tomato in Seattle, but you can’t get a good avocado in Philadelphia.)

      It’s always trickier to find friends as you get older. You’ll have to up your socializing game and actively explore opportunities in your new home. For a number of people that trouble is not worth the boost in salary; for others, it’s an opportunity to invite new circles of friends into their lives.

    3. Frankie*

      Would you be okay if the move started to turn into a worst-case scenario? Or are you only going hoping that every element of your life would improve?

      If you could handle a worst-case scenario, I think it’s a signal it might be time to move. It gets really hard to move without some kind of momentum or thing pushing you, so a job opportunity is a good excuse.

      If you would only go if most things would be an improvement, that might be an indication you should stay where you are. There’s not a thing wrong with staying where you already have some roots.

      Another question that might help is whether you would regret not living anywhere else in 10 years.

  73. AnonToday*

    I am struggling a bit with a “co-director” set up. We’re reporting to a very hands-off high-level manager over several areas. Looking for any advice of how to successfully navigate a “co-” set up.
    I don’t think they necessarily mean to be operating this way, so maybe this should be a conversation with the “co” first about how the set up seems to be working, but I’m struggling with the best way to approach that, too.

    I’d prefer to just have some strategies for division of work/oversight to propose to allow for us both to have a certain level of autonomy/decision-making power rather than the “first come” or “last heard” system that seems to be in play right now. I feel out-senior-ed (?) in that my counter-part has been here longer and is operating like a de-facto manager as a result, and the seniority with the organization seems to give them more weight in decisions or think they can/should direct my work more than I’d like to happen. The bulk of my work is strategic and takes longer to plan and implement, theirs is less so, I also get frustrated sometimes perceiving they feel the need to oversee my work in some way.

    In our industry, it would be hard to make clear delineations like XYZ duties go to Danarys, and ABC duties go to Sansa,” although coming in I had hoped we could do that to some degree.

    Given the close relationship my counterpart has with our managers, I’m not sure if or how to best approach the issue with our manager in a way that doesn’t sound like I simply can’t find a way to work together, or that I’m tattling on the other employee. I also find I’m moving into a more passive kind of role than I want to be, maybe because I’m feeling steamrolled and insecure now about why this happening, so that’s disappointing for me and I’m trying to get myself back on track.

    And, the other employee does a great job! Generally we all get along well, so it’s not a personality conflict per se, or that I don’t think they do good work….but I do feel like I’m not truly able to manage any part of the job in the way I had envisioned when I was hired. I was excited to make this my own, and it’s just not happening.

    Thanks for any advice. Hoping to hear from those of you who may have had similar experience with setting some parameters in a “co” set up!

    1. Kathenus*

      I think you hit upon it in your first paragraph that this should be a conversation with your other co-director. I get that it’s awkward, but imo it’s more awkward to go to a manager about it and have the manager go to co-director who then wonders why you didn’t simply approach them. And you mention in a later paragraph that you’re moving into a more ‘passive’ role than you’d like, so the best way to demonstrate that you can and should be in more active roles as well is to be active versus passive in dealing with this.

      Maybe ask the co-director to meet to discuss division of oversight/work for better efficiency and to reduce wasted effort where you are overlapping and both doing the same thing. Given your mentioning that they are senior to you in time there, if it were me I’d have some notes on a suggested breakdown, but I wouldn’t present them initially. I’d ask if they had any thoughts on it, but if they ask you for your thoughts you have it ready to go as well. One exception might be if there’s an area you have a very strong interest in it might be worth noting that, something like ‘I’d be very interested in being point on xx given my past experience with this, but am open to whatever division of work we decide upon’.

      Right now you’re potentially having awkwardness every day trying to navigate this situation, having a meeting to discuss it head on may be awkward as well but at least it has a finite amount of it and hopefully things will be better once it’s discussed in the open. Best of luck.

    2. Frankie*

      I’ve definitely been in this kind of situation with shared work and unclear roles, but not at a leadership level. You really have to check in with your co-director on how things are going. If it’s not possible to divide tasks, you can ask about where you’d like to be more involved and/or have more autonomy (not sure exactly what the desired end result for you would be).

      If they’ve been there longer, they probably have a lot of institutional knowledge that you don’t and can probably operate at greater speed that way. Or maybe they feel a greater need to do particular things because they’re not new and feel the expectations are higher.

      OTOH, of course it’s possible they just have a very take-charge kind of approach, or they’re uncomfortable with a new hire sharing their load.

      But when roles are unclear, you have to start communicating or you’ll just work yourself more into this weird space.

  74. epi*

    Any random tips and tricks that delight you and that you’d like to share? I have two software suggestions that I think might be overlooked by groups of people who could really use them.

    – Notepad++: This is a plain text editor that, as the name implies, is way better than Notepad. If you do any type of programming you will definitely have heard of it: it’s recommended by tons of people because it supports multiple programming languages and will help you format and check your code. What you might not know is that it’s great for taking other kinds of notes and keeping organized. I really recommend a plain text editor for any kind of writing if you tend to get distracted– I will fight with Word formatting for an hour rather than work if I don’t watch myself. You can open multiple text files in tabs. Most excellently for note taking, Notepad++ will recover any unsaved notes that were open in tabs when the application was closed– even after restarting your computer. Use it for a to-do list or keeping track of your thoughts while reading something else, keep it exactly as long as you need it, then blow it away without having to keep a weird confusing archive of old to-do lists. I now use it for this more than for programming.

    – Standard Notes: This is another plain text editor, but a privacy-focused one. The free editor will sync your notes between devices using end to end encryption, allows you to save encrypted or unencrypted notes in the cloud service of your choice, supports tagging your notes, and is all around awesome. I’d recommend it for writers in particular, or anyone who has downtime at work where it is acceptable to update a personal project. Paying to support the project gets you access to more editors with formatting and themes, and a ton of neat privacy focused extensions. I use it as a journal.

    I hope someone gets use out of these and enjoys them. I like them both so much, I sometimes open them and get distracted for a second thinking about how much I love them.

    1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Notepad++ has a really good plugin for comparing files, too. I much prefer it to just about any other file comparison tool. Works on pretty much any file type you can open in N++.

    2. halfwolf*

      this is minor, but it really helped me and has been a great tip for every admin coworker i’ve had: i discovered you can save a draft of an outlook email to your desktop and keep opening it, over and over, sending it to different recipients. i have regular requests i need to make over email, usually to 5-10 different counterparts, and being able to just open up the draft with the correct subject line, send it off to a new person, and then go again, has saved me a lot of time.

    4. Kathenus*

      The snip tool! Maybe it’s an overreaction to say it’s changed my life but it certainly has come in handy and made it easier since I found out that it existed and was already on my computer! Being able to grab a specific section of what’s on my screen in one step versus the print screen, paste to Word, crop to the portion I wanted, etc. has been a huge efficiency-boost.

    5. Windchime*

      I’m a big fan of Notepad++. I have to write formulas in Webi (don’t ask; it sucks) and the editor has absolutely no ability to format. So if I’m having trouble with a formula, I paste it into Notepad ++ and then I can at least tell if I’ve got my parentheses matched up. I also have to write files out to text, and Notepad++ can handle opening a big file.

  75. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

    So yesterday one of my bosses notified me that she’d be transferring a ~quarter of my duties to another person in the office.

    She cited (small) issues that she has never brought up to me, and the fact that the undergraduates we have doing some data entry are not doing such a great job. This is wild because I was specifically told not to monitor their work several months ago because I was totally slammed. Not to mention, the file she was using to assess the small issues (which are basically be on the same level as spelling errors on an internal document) was one that, according to our file sharing system, I have never even touched.

    Anyways, I can’t believe this is happening. We had our weekly check in meeting several hours after I got the email notifying me of this and in response to me pointing out that I did as I was told to do and am not even at fault for the errors of other people, she says “Something has to change” and she is staying the course with giving a significant chunk of my job to someone else, who has no qualifications to even be doing this work in the first place (not even a similar job title!). I’m heavily applying to jobs already starting several weeks ago, but I am beyond frustrated right now that my manager is refusing to manage, and implicitly trusts undergraduates who are working for free over a staff member. My job should not be up for grabs by other people without at least several conversations notifying me that my boss had issues with my work. ugh

    1. Silver Radicand*

      Are you still slammed? Is it possible that she is trying to shift duties as a good supervisor would in such circumstances?
      I’m not sure from your comment why exactly you are upset. Is it possible that she is wanting to free you up so the interns can be managed (by you)?

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Probably a rhetorical question: Why didn’t the manager transfer the responsibility of monitoring the undergrads to someone else instead of telling you not to worry about it and then holding you responsible for not doing it, and then deciding to take something else away instead?

      It’s possible the manager still thinks you are swamped, and/or conveniently forgot that you were told not to monitor the undergrads’ work, but this seems like a poor and abrupt way to communicate if this is supposed to be a supportive action rather than a punitive one. Hope you have good luck on the job search!

  76. US Census work*

    PSA: the US Census is way behind in recruiting. Where I am, we’re at 45 % staffing, so pay rates have gone up 5% & will go up again if needed to get to full staffing. I know some of us here are looking for primary or supplemental work.

    Recruiters have been advertising that:
    – schedules can be extremely flexible (can change weekly as you need)
    – Census income does not count against benefits like SNAP, disability, Medicaid
    – paid training
    – weekly direct deposit
    Apply online, the system will then match you with available roles. There are a few additional questions at the end if you want to be considered for supervisory roles. They call you when your name matches an opening; if you don’t answer they go on to the next person. You can accept one position & move as things change. US citizens only, ages 18 & up. You have to pass a background check (no felonies, list any misdemeanors).

    Jobs are temporary, likely ending late summer or early fall. People leave as full time offers, etc, come to them so you aren’t locked in.

    Hope this is helpful to someone.

    2. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

      Apparently I started, but did not finish, the process. It won’t let me do a new sign in, because I already input my email. And I can’t get a new password because I do not remember my ID (I tried my first name and my full name). Any suggestions?

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Sign up for a new Google email (free); use the new account for this. Have the new account forward everything to your old.

    3. Close Bracket*

      Are all census jobs walking jobs? Are there any jobs that are primarily seated such that a mobility impaired person could do them?

      1. US Census work*

        Password question – I’d try Jules’ suggestion.

        Mobility question – the short answer is yes, they do have office jobs, I’m told they’re mostly clerical, & the pay scales is a bit lower. For what it’s worth the recruiter we spoke with encouraged the wheel chair user in our group to apply, and not to take herself out of consideration because of her disability.

  77. Ra94*

    Last day at my super toxic job! This last week was marred but also made thrilling by my boss getting held in jail for contempt of court after she talked back to a judge. (And refused to stop talking when he warned her. And refused to pay $100 instead of going to jail. And refused to get booked so that she could bail herself out for jail for a full day.) Spent an entire day making surreal phone calls to other attorneys she knows, starting with, “Hi, I work for X- she’s actually in jail and needs you as her attorney…”

    Am I right in thinking I should bite my tongue and hold back on sharing this story with my new coworkers until I know them better, lest I sound like I’m badmouthing the old job? The story is purely factual, and by far the wildest work experience I’ve had, but I’m not sure if it reads “whoa you must be crazy too” to outsiders, or “well done you for escaping a clearly toxic environment.”

    1. Muriel Heslop*

      That’s certainly a wild story! I would wait to share…if ever. They may draw the conclusion that you are indiscreet or gossipy, which would be unfortunate. I recommend limiting your sharing to trusted friends and family, if anyone.

      Good luck with the new job! So glad you are leaving the super toxic one!

      1. Ra94*

        Agreed, I think I’ll go with my gut on this one. If people ask more detailed stories about the job, I can go with the nature of the work (oh, working with private clients was so different to our corporate clients here!) rather than the office itself, which yielded non-stop crazy.

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        This. If a new hire to my team started and immediately began telling stories about how crazy her last job and manager was, I’d steer clear of her myself – wouldn’t want to eventually end up as one of her amusing anecdotes once she exhausted those stories.

    2. fposte*

      Sadly, I agree with Muriel that you need to wait to tell the story. Don’t even tease it with “Oh, the stories I could tell,” because it’s just too hard to keep something this amazing from bubbling up.

    3. RC Rascal*

      The crazier the story, the more years you wait to tell it. If it’s super crazy, you can never tell it.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I’d guess the conversation would go like this:

      New Co-worker: “So, who were you working for before here?”

      Ra94: “LawyerName.”

      NC: “OMG! That’s the lawyer who got jailed for contempt the other day!”

      That is, they may know the incident already, so you won’t have to bring it up yourself. If they ask you about your experience working for her, then you can say something along the lines of “never a dull day” and then pivot to something current so that you don’t come across as badmouthing her.

      1. Ra94*

        Unfortunately/fortunately, the new job is in a different country and totally different area of law, so they’re certain to have never heard of her. It means I’m insulated from her crazy reputation and any chance of interacting/networking with her, but it does mean there’s no context for any stories. If I were working for anyone who’d met her, I wouldn’t be worried, because she has a reputation for being absolutely insane and I’ve had lawyers wish me luck when they hear she’s my boss, unprompted. But I like “never a dull moment”, because it’s true but ambiguous!

    5. Donkey Hotey*

      Good luck with the new job and yeah, I’d let that one age a bit before sharing.
      Save it for a commiserating session, preferably after hours. “You think your ex boss was bad?”

    6. andy*

      I would wait to see what kind of stories other people in your new team talk and matched my to environment. Unlike others in this discussion, I would be willing to talk about things like that, but when it is relevant to discussion going on not just out of blue. I would also wait to know co-workers a bit more before saying pretty much anything about anything – you dont know whether people in new place are not toxic in their own ways when you are new.

      Off-topic: I learned the hard way that the places where people cant say anything negative about past experiences tend to be very vulnerable to first bad actor that goes around. It makes you all collectively incapable to compare notes and figure out what the correct action is. If you are conditioned to feel bad about saying negative things, it is super hard to suddenly say “he seem to want me to defraud customer” or “she is lying to you to harm you” or “she is manipulating you “. Dont be us, dont condition yourself like that.

      Hence, I came to conclusion that expectation to keep other peoples secrets serves only bad actors.

  78. Intel Analyst Shell*

    After 7 years with a government agency I’ve begun job hunting. I’ve applied with some local corporations and I’m curious what sort of experiences people have had going from government agency to private corporation or vice versa? Any tips to handle the transition?

    I’m a little bit nervous at the possible “culture shock”. I currently get no annual review, we haven’t received a cost of living raise in nearly a decade, my last merit raise was two years ago amd I’m underpaid by about $7k.

    1. DinoGirl*

      It is a big jump, did it this year. I’m still adjusting. The pace is faster. The culture is, maybe, more polite/deferential/formal. The budget is more closely watched. This is just my personal experience. But yes, it’s a bit of a culture shock.
      Also consider benefits, even where unpaid, which tend to be richer in government…I still have semi-regrets about this aspect.

    2. Chaordic One*

      In my experience, private business is much less bureaucratic and for this reason you can respond to situations much more quickly and appropriately. OTOH, there’s a lot more turnover and usually they don’t do a very good job of keeping records of what was done in the past. They are always reinventing the wheel.

      Depending on the business and how successful it is, you should be able to advance more quickly and increase your earnings when you can show that you’ve helped the bottom line (or you might feel stuck and trapped if it isn’t successful). You do kind of have to always worry if might get let go because the business might go under, or get bought-out by or merged with a different company.

      When I worked for the government I was a union member and it was more of a help than a hindrance. We received decent raises and good (not great) benefits. (OTOH, the union set things up so that you had to have been there forever before you could qualify to take any time off around holidays.) The union helped people when they needed time off for FMLA and in a small number of cases of blatant discrimination against certain employees (age, sex, LGBT) where a private business might have been more able to get away with it.

      Government jobs do tend to be a bit more secure and people tend to stay in them longer.

  79. Project of Doom*

    I volunteered to take on Project X that was in a field I know nothing about, but was told it would mostly be run by consultants, and it would just need my help with brainstorming, editing, and coordinating scheduling. Not a big deal. Well Project X ended up needing full, hands-on directions from me, in a lot of areas I was not familiar with. I have stressed time and again that this is not my area of expertise and there is a lot I don’t know. My boss apologized that it ended up being a bigger project for me, but has made clear it is still my ultimate responsibility. And it’s not going great. There’s been some mistakes on my part, which I have been open about and sought to remedy, and just some “acts of God” no one could have known, and the consultants have been difficult to work with. 

    When I asked my boss if I could be doing anything differently she just gave a vague answer but keeps saying I’m “awesome” and she appreciates me. Meanwhile, I am so stressed I can’t sleep at night. I started crying the other day because of this dang project that has been going on for months and ruined my holidays even. 
    Questions:
    1. When I started to realize the project was bigger (which took awhile), should I have asked to be taken off it?
    2. I’m coming up on my annual review. I’ve been told my work is excellent and I wanted to ask for a raise. Should I not do that now that this project has been crazy? 
    3. How do I deal with this stress?!?!?! 

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      1) I think you could maybe have asked the boss for an additional resource, in the form of paying for an expert who knows the things you don’t. Asking to be taken off would really depend on too many factors for me to assess here, like what else is not getting done, what’s your job environment (length of time there / relationship with boss), whether the boss could have come up with anyone who could do it better.
      2) ASK FOR THE RAISE. Cite the growth / learning you’ve done in support of this project.
      3) Some possible ideas:
      – Put together a ‘countdown’ style list for the project, where you can see it getting shorter as you get closer to the end
      – Take a day off work, tell your boss / everyone your phone will be off, and do something that you really like, a real break. Massage & spa day, Knitathon, or All Pokemon, All Day. Getting outside for a bit is usually helpful, if the weather / etc cooperate. Turn off the phone ringer, do not look at texts. If the project is one day later, big whup!
      – Write up all the new things you’ve learned, add them to your resume and work profile, in support of the raise request, but also in support of yourself.
      – Start writing up your after-project report. Of course you have to mention what went wrong, but focus on how the problems were solved, and what went right.
      – Purchase a light therapy box. Even if you don’t have SAD, it’s dark and gloomy, light may help. There’s recent studies showing that green-tinted light is especially helpful.

      Remind yourself: projects are never perfect. You can not control everything. You can guide, encourage, ask for help, smooth the way, but you can not control other people.

      Good luck.

  80. Career change CV wisdom?*

    Does anyone have any advice on a career change CV? Please help me AAM hive mind!!
    My partner has worked all his adult life backstage in theatre (over 15 years) but has wanted to leave to do something more 9-5 for a while. He took the plunge a few months ago when the production he was working on closed, and had an opportunity to work at small start-up in marketing/admin through a friend.
    He enjoys the marketing aspect and would like to pursue that but it’s not the right role for many reasons, foremost the intensely toxic atmosphere that has severely impacted his wellbeing. He’s keen to find a new role so I’m giving him feedback on a CV/cover letter. How does he tell the story about his career change and sell those transferable skills?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I don’t know that it’s something that one covers in the CV. That sounds more like something one would discuss in the cover letter and in an interview (i.e. “I’m interested in marketing because…”, “Some aspects of this particular job that draw me are…”).

      In terms of the accomplishments, frame them in ways that would resonate with the accomplishments that one would need for a marketing job. I’m not in either marketing or backstage work, so this is probably all wrong in details:

      Head Stagehand, Stagehand Company, DATE – DATE
      *Trained and managed five stage hands to do ____
      *Identified key barriers and solutions to ____

      1. Career change CV wisdom?*

        Thanks for your thoughts! This is reassuring because it chimes with what I was thinking. Fingers crossed he’s successful.

  81. Just a Dreamer*

    Wondering if anyone else was rubbed the wrong way by the Ask the Readers thread OP saying “Dream jobs don’t exist.” Isn’t Alison’s advice more like…you can’t know something is your dream job from the outside?

    Because I feel like I have my dream job right now. And sure there’s a lot about it that isn’t ideal but I still feel like I’m “living my dream” (which is awesome and I feel very lucky to be able to do that).

    Other thoughts? Do dream jobs exist?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      For some people, I think dream=perfect, and I don’t believe any job is perfect. But for others, dream=best possible way to make money and do something you enjoy. Those definitely exist.

      But agreed, no way to no from the outside. I don’t think anything can be a dream job until you’ve been there several years and have seen it through any ups or downs.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Mine is pretty much a dream job. If it paid twice as much it would be as close to perfect as anything needs to be.

      2. Frankie*

        Yeah, it depends on what “dream job” means, and the issue is that it can mean anything from “oh the content of my work is usually interesting” to “I never have to do anything at work I don’t like or want to do.”

        Part of the issue is that those concepts float around in college before most have any real idea what many jobs and industries are actually like. So although you know subject areas of interest, you may not know very clearly what you would like to be occupied with on a day-to-day basis that people will pay money for.

        So it can lead people to turn down perfectly good opportunities because they don’t align with the “dream job” in someone’s head that may not even really be all that suitable.

        And for those who are unrealistic about finishing school or changing industries, I’ve seen some misguided, “I don’t want just any entry-level job because of my degree” thinking cause people to bypass getting their foot in the door somewhere in the hopes they’d land a plum gig right away.

        Personally, I’m in a “dream job” right now as I would define it in terms of content of work…but the organizational drama and dysfunction is chipping away at my morale so I may eventually get to the point where I would take more “boring” work to have a little more positive environment. So even dream jobs aren’t always the right job for the moment.

    2. DinoGirl*

      I’d like to think so, but I’m in the camp of feeling like, they don’t always exist, and sometimes telling especially new grads not to settle leads them down a path of frustration. Sometimes you just need a job and it might not be a dream job, or your first job might not be your dream job, but it’ll be a step on the path…

    3. anon24*

      I mean, I’m doing a job I always dreamed of doing. Some days I can’t believe I’m actually doing this job and I feel like I’m finally where I belong.

      But other days I hate my job. And, (I knew this going into it) the pay absolutely sucks, the hours are long, and this field comes with a host of mental health issues. It’s a dream, but it’s also a nightmare. At this point in my life however, there’s literally nothing else I’d rather be doing for money. I wouldn’t change fields for anything right now, although I am working on bettering myself for future prospects because I know eventually the negatives of this job will overcome the “OMG it’s my dream!”

    4. Nessun*

      I feel like the wording is problematic because it’s used so often – there’s this weird assumption that out there somewhere is the Best. Job. Evar. for you, for your friend, for your fellow students or colleagues. If people could be realistic about how to interpret the phrase, such as Kimmy Schmidt’s excellent definition above, then yes, you can say there are dream jobs. But so many people think that a Dream Job is that magical unicorn position that you’ll hear about, nail the interview, start right away and love every minute…dude, that’s no job ever. Most jobs have pros and cons, and you’ll enjoy the majority of your work if you have confidence in it, value your contributions, are valued for your contributions, and have opportunity to learn (or not) as best suits your personality. But there’s almost always pieces you’d rather not do – and acknowledging those is vital. Saying it’s a dream job is not the same as saying it’s perfect, but people conflate the two.

      And we also neglect to consider that one person’s dream is another’s nightmare. What works so well for someone that they’ll call it a dream job, might be hell on earth to someone else – context is everything.

      Worst of all is when we sell students or new workers on the idea of a dream, when really they need to be considering security and stability. Don’t settle for being treated poorly, certainly, but don’t assume it should all be sunshine and roses…or you’ll spend all your time looking for something that doesn’t exist.

  82. Bob*

    I sent my.manager an email resigning from my job. She hasn’t replied. I have received several emails from her sent out to the group. Do o assume she received it and isn’t responding or try contact her again? I’m scheduled for training next week, I asked her what she wants to do about this in my email.

    3. DinoGirl*

      Depends how long. She might be discussing whether to counter, for example, and holding on a reply until she has a plan.

        1. ACDC*

          Oh then I would definitely follow up before you leave today. Maybe just swing by boss’s office for a few minutes?

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      In general, unless you have reason to fear for your safety and/or this isn’t feasible for some reason, resign over the phone or in person. In my opinion, an emailed resignation is meant to be a “here’s written confirmation for our records.”

  83. MissMaple*

    Quick question: got an email last week saying “You’ve been selected for an interview, details for scheduling will follow in the next week with interviews over the following four weeks,” and haven’t heard anything else; do I just assume things are moving slowly and wait a bit longer or follow up the email since it’s now been 10 days?

    1. fposte*

      Well, it’s still next week, so they’re not even late yet :-). I’d wait until Thursday or Friday of next week, and then I’d just ask if there’s a new timeframe.

      1. MissMaple*

        Haha, that’s a good point. I interpreted it as within a week from when the email popped in (which was last Tuesday), but there’s definitely a reading that goes the way you’re saying :)

    1. Threeve*

      I’m going to need you to elaborate on that. By typing words on your keyboard. With your fingers. All ten of them. If you don’t use your pinkies when you type, then we should probably talk about that, and I can watch you type and see where you’re going wrong. And of course I’ll need to take a look at your comment before you post it.

  85. Nancy Drew*

    I work for a small family-owned company. The owners are 2 brothers. My boss is one of the brothers focusing on sales; the other focuses on essentially everything else. My boss has become increasingly harder to work with. He asks the same questions every couple days. I can’t tell if it’s because he’s unsatisfied with the answer I previously provided or if he forgets that he asked and I answered already. This has started spreading to clients, where he won’t “hear” what they’re saying (ie he asks if they want product A, they say no we want product B, and he continues to talk about plans to move forward with product A). In addition, he’s been sending unintelligible emails while he travels and is out of the office. A coworker and I are struggling to parse through his emails to figure out what he’s asking. A few other issues: He’s rude and condescending to some employees (we’re a team under 10), has stopped copying me on emails where I need the information to do my job, and creates an us vs them environment between sales and operations that I do not subscribe to (I’m the only other person directly working in sales). I think the biggest problem is that his brother is pretending like nothing is wrong and there’s nothing to do about it, despite how frustrating this is. I’ve brought it up a couple times with him and the only other higher up in the company and it’s clear nothing will change. Any advice for dealing? I know I have to leave and I have plans to, but I need to make it through in the meantime without completely losing it.

    1. Project of Doom*

      Hmm, this is hard and I agree leaving is the best option. In the meantime, document everything! If he asks you a question, answer and then also send the answer via email. If you have a conversation with a client, send an email follow up with a summary. Then if anything bad happens and they are trying to pin it on you, you can say “Yes, I emailed about that on x date after our conversation.”

    2. Jean*

      I’m sorry, this sounds so frustrating. I know you are planning on leaving, but in the meantime, try to focus on enforcing an emotional separation from the situation. It’s not caused by you and has nothing to do with you personally. Whether it’s some sort of pathology (e.g. dementia), or some other issue causing your boss to behave this way, there’s nothing you can do to fix it. Show up, do your work, and leave it there at the end of the day. Continue to keep written records of what you have done and what questions you have answered through email. Continue to support your clients, but keep in mind that this is just work. It’s not your problem to fix and it won’t be your problem at all for much longer. Best of luck in your search.

  86. MeMeMe*

    A few days ago, there was a letter about dealing with coworkers who insult you and then claim they were just joking… Any advice for dealing with this when it’s your assistant director who’s doing this to the staff who report to her?

    She’s never done it to me, but twice I’ve witnessed her doing it to one particular person and I didn’t know how to respond and just froze. Both times were in meetings —

    1) At a brainstorming session, John volunteers an idea, and she says, “Wow, I didn’t think you were smart enough to come up with that. [*awkward silence from the group*] Haha, it’s a JOKE!”

    2) At another meeting, she says to the group, “I’ve found that if you want to learn the fastest way to do something, you assign it to the laziest person on the team. So [ *looks directly at John* ]…” John says gently, “Uh, haha, are you trying to tell me something?” She says, with a big fake grin, “Oh, I’m KIDDING! …But still, that’s your job now.”

    These are just two examples I’ve witnessed, but my coworkers have told me about all kinds of incidents like this. She clearly targets the people who are very mild-mannered and would never push back. I’m kicking myself now for freezing in the moment and not saying something to defend or show solidarity with John, or at the very least say, “Well, that’s an odd thing to say!”

    I’m also a coward and afraid to make myself one of her targets. My brain always shuts down when someone mistreats me, and I either can’t talk at all or I trip all over my words and babble whatever it takes to appease them so they stop paying attention to me. I can imagine saying, “That’s an odd thing to say!” to my assistant director, but I have no idea how I’d respond to whatever she’d say in reply. But I also feel like I can’t let this shit slide anymore, you know? It’s just not right!

    Any suggestions or stories of commiseration?

    2. Mischief Managed*

      Oh man. It would be so hard for me to bite my tongue from saying something even worse.
      1) “Well smarter than you at least, since I thought of it first.”
      2) “So…that means you’re going to do it?”
      That would be extremely counterproductive. Someone did do that to me and yes, sadly I was snarky right back. I may have implied (or directly stated) they didn’t have the mental capacity to make a clever joke so perhaps they should stop trying to be funny. It was in school and directed at a group project member who thought they were hilarious, so I didn’t get in trouble but I did feel bad.
      My advice? Just look bewildered. If she tries to defend it, maybe ask her to explain the joke. “Oh? I don’t understand why that’s funny. Can you explain?”

    3. DinoGirl*

      This might be a situation where you can say, “Please explain the joke, I’m missing it.” Or as you said, “I’m uncomfortable” or something like that. Better yet, report it to someone higher up, with a list of examples.

      1. Reliquary*

        I’d use DinoGirls’ strategy, with a pointed compliment/comment about the mocked worker tacked on at the end.
        “What do you mean? John is incredibly intelligent.”
        “What do you mean? John is extremely hardworking.”

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I am an old and IDGAF, so I would say:

      – To “It was a JOKE”: “Wow, that didn’t sound like a joke.”

      – To “I was just KIDDING”: “Huh, it didn’t sound like you were kidding.”

      In your mind, practice taking the word she uses (“joking” or “kidding”) and use the same word back at her. Not loudly or accusingly, but as if you really did not hear what she said as a joke or as kidding — and because truly you didn’t, you’re saying something truthful back to her.

  87. Wing Leader*

    This doesn’t rise to the level of writing in to Alison, but it’s starting to drive me nuts.

    I have a coworker who will walk down to my office every single morning and say, “Merry Monday/Merry Tuesday/Merry Wednesday, etc.”. It’s like Merry Christmas, but for every day. She’s one of those people who believes “every day is ggrrreaat!” I also have to say it back to her. Like, no choice. If I just say “thanks”or something, she will stand there and stare at me until I parrot it back to her. She has done with, without fail, every day for five years. Sometimes she even texts me on the weekends and says, “Merry Saturday!”

    And, after five straight years of this, I’m REALLY over hearing it. I have no problem talking to her in the morning! I’d just rather it be a more general hey/how are you/how was your weekend sort of thing.

    This seems like an easy thing to just talk to her about, but this particular coworker, despite her usual cheeriness, has a tendency to get VERY upset if she thinks people aren’t being nice enough to her. I’ve seen her have an absolute meltdown at another coworker because supposedly that coworker was being rude (I don’t know exactly what was said).

    I don’t want to spiral her into a meltdown at me. I just don’t need to be told the same thing every day for the rest of my life, and it’s gotten reeeallly old by now.

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think you can change what she says to you, but you can certainly change what you say to her. Maybe start with “I’m not feeling merry today, Jane, but I hope you have a good week.” Then Tuesday can be a cheery “Good morning!”

      And if she stands and stares at you, let her. Just go back to work. It’s unlikely that she’s going to Bartleby there for the rest of her life, and if she does, that’s an awesome workplace story.

        1. valentine*

          Stop parroting and block her on weekends. (Demerits to her for not going to your house and staring until you text it back.) (Please say you haven’t been texting it back.) When she stares, ask her to stop and to move away. Let her have a meltdown. I’d be interested to see how long she can keep it up and whether she can do it daily for the next five years.

          You have a management problem, because no one should be jumping through hoops to meet her definition of niceness, and she’s immature, or she’d be able to self-soothe and not be dragged with the tide of everyone else’s mood.

      2. RagingADHD*

        Yes, ultimately yoh just have to be willing to leave her hanging.

        She is not the one “making” you do this. You do have a choice.

        You have chosen to participate in this ritual for five years. You can choose to stop.

    2. Zona the Great*

      Yeah I’m dealing with someone at work who I wrote into the Friday thread about. “Ted” doesn’t even work with me in any respect yet makes a huge production about making sure he says Hi in public, loudly, and in a way that forces you to continue interacting with him. He . Won’t. Leave my office. Most people here said to just tell him I’m busy and not talkative. But I’m not busy and I am talkative. I just don’t want to deal with him anymore.

      Wing Leader, I have recently given myself permission to lay down boundaries with him much more rigidly than I would anyone else. I don’t know why I thought I could only defend my boundaries so much (by telling him little lies and letting him continue doing this shit) but that further defending my own boundaries was not okay.

      So…I decided I’m going to tell him and him alone that I don’t want him to stop at my office anymore. Further, I’m going to tell him that I’m happy to say hello as I pass him in the hall but I won’t be willing to engage in further small-talk with him. He is a boundary stomper and is socially unaware. If I wave my hair, he’ll ask if I went though a car wash with my moon roof open (?!?!?) among other bizarre and inappropriate comments. I know the end result will be that he will make a show of ignoring me but I don’t care anymore.

    4. Threeve*

      “Good morning! We’ve been ‘merry’ for a while now. How would you feel about switching things up?”

      Also, I would 100% risk a meltdown to get it to stop, personally. Because eventually? That conversation would be:
      “Merry Wednesday!”
      “One more ‘merry’ and I will stab you.”

    5. Jedi Squirrel*

      I would be snarky and reply with something different that rhymes with “merry” every day.

      Coworker: “Merry Monday!”

      Me: “Larry Monday!”

      Coworker: “Merry Tuesday!”

      Me: “Very Tuesday!”

      Coworker: “Merry Wednesday!”

      Me: “Hairy Wednesday!”

      Coworker: “Merry Thursday!”

      Me: “Sherry Thursday!”

      Coworker: “Merry Friday!”

      Me: “Scary Friday!”

      Coworker, texting me on a Saturday: “Merry Saturday!”

      Me: blocks coworker.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        I actually love this. Gentle push back, and she looks completely idiotic if she complains, or even if she gets upset. If she asks, ‘what, not Merry?’, you just say, ‘I got bored and want to switch it up!’

        1. Jedi Squirrel*

          My other thought was to come up with my own inane phrase.

          Coworker: “Merry Monday!”

          Me: “Llama, llama!”

    6. Samwise*

      Respond with thanks or good morning or whatever feels comfortable to you. She can’t MAKE you say it back. She wants to stand around waiting for you To say it back? Thats her problem, not yours. She gets obnoxious about it, and tells you she’s waiting for you to say it back? Say, Karen, I said thanks/good morning/you too. If she insists, cock your head at her, look puzzled, and say, really? That’s odd! Then ignore her. Or, laugh and say, You crack me up, what a kidder! Then ignore her. Or respond to the initial Merry Monday! with something equally ridiculous— Happy birthday! Or, it’s not just Monday, Karen, it’s also national cheese toast day! Or, HO HO HO Rudolph! Or, Jingle bells to you, Karen. Or, I’m just waiting for Festivus.

      But you probably can’t make her stop saying it herself.

  88. Fishsticks*

    Hey all!

    I’m looking for advice on getting sponsorships/grants. Basically I’m working for a small business in a unique field that also has competitions. However, the business is not the top of the field and has had to take a break from competing this year. So I’m struggling on how to make it sound like a company should partner with us. We have a sponsorship program with what a company gets back in return but I’m still not sure how to phrase it. Especially since everything on the internet is for one off events but we are more looking at long-term sponsorships from companies.

    Anyone have any suggestions for getting better at asking for money/writing these things out better? I’m basically starting from zero experience but my googling is struggling.

  89. Aurion*

    This is a week where I keep ruminating about my own awkwardness.

    I’ll skip the non-work foot-in-mouth moments, but for work just now…I work in procurement and utilize the live-chat option with one of my vendors regularly. There’s a rota of regular CSRs who answer whose names I all recognize, and I have a login identifier so they know who I am (in that I’m not just an anonymous “guest” all the time). Whilst we don’t get into extended chats on off-topic stuff like we might do on email, a few of them are more chatty/friendly than others who are the “question A, answer A” types.

    Earlier this week or late last week, in the “morning, how are you” exchange, one CSR mentioned he was very excited because he was going to a house-viewing later that day. So today, after the work questions were out of the way, I asked him how the house viewing went.

    Long silence. Then a short reply about thanks for asking, place was nice but it didn’t work out.

    Oops. Should I not have mentioned it and just left it as the filler from last conversation? I dunno, I figured just a friendly question like I would in email was nice, to show I remember them and they’re not just…fungible anonymous CSRs who are just there to answer me.

    Now I’m gonna be thinking about this all day…

    1. fposte*

      I’m not clear why you’re assuming that a bit of silence was emotionally related rather than just being a sign that they were on their phone or sipping their coffee or handling somebody else on another screen, though. Is that something you tend to do? Especially with the note that you expect to be thinking about this all day, it sounds like you may let your nervousness mislead you about the significance of your actions. Most of the time people aren’t even paying that much attention to us :-).

      1. Aurion*

        When it comes to social situations, I definitely ruminate about my own awkwardness a lot. I may still be wincing inwardly about a legit foot-in-mouth moment I had at a party in early December… (That one was an unmistakable one–I got a bunch of silent blank stares from like three different people when my mouth said something entirely different from what my brain wanted.)

        I concede that my nervousness at legit foot-in-mouth moments might be giving me false positives elsewhere. :D;;

        1. tangerineRose*

          What you said sounded OK to me . The other person was probably just busy and didn’t get back to you right away.

  90. The Blue Marble*

    Does anyone else count stairs when using them? I especially do this at work when I travel between various floors.

  91. Middle Manager*

    Any thoughts on project management certification (such as PMP through PMI)? Are they worth it? Does it make a difference when I’m in government. State government that I don’t tend to see any specific postings for a certification, but wonder if it might help anyway?

  92. Hello It's Me*

    Coworker: I know you’re celiac, but do you want a cookie? It’s made with regular flour.

    Me: adsfjoasidjfoisdfjoaidfjosidjf

    2. pcake*

      Yes, I am celiac, and your cookie would send me to the hospital or possibly kill me. Thanks for offering, though.

    3. Fikly*

      No, but you eat it, and tell me every detail about how it tastes and what the texture is like.

      …what?

  93. Lucy P*

    I’m the senior most person on a team of admins for a small business. A few years ago, one the team members got mad a me because I didn’t pat them on the back for a specific task they had done. It was something mundane that was part of their assigned duties.

    I’ve been good about complimenting people when they accomplish something big, when they do something they’ve never done before, thanking them when they’ve taken on extra work for whatever reason, but I’ve never thought about praising them for the day-to-day things they do, until recently.

    Fast forward to now, due to layoffs, the team is 2 people fewer so the duties of the two are now spread out to the rest of us. On top of that, for the past couple of months, the other members of the team have been either dealing with illness or personal issues that keep them out of the office more often. At certain points this has made me the only admin in the office, taking on everyone else’s “must do” items on top of my own, and putting off the stuff that could wait.

    None of the extra work had put me in a serious bind, so I really can’t complain except. There were a few days when I didn’t feel well (nothing contagious), and would have rather been home resting, but felt I had to “be there” because no one else was.

    One evening I had to stay late to get something out the door (something that would normally fall to one of the other admins). As the boss passed by my door they asked why I wasn’t leaving. I mentioned that I had to send out something for Manager X. Their reply, “Oh. That’s right. Everything’s on you right now.” Then they left. No thanks for the extra effort, no other comments.

    It’s my job to take on these other tasks. I’ve done this many times before. But just then I felt like the other admin, wanting to be thanked for something that was part of my job description.

    1. Jaid*

      I think you’re entitled to feel some kind of way about it. You may not be overwhelmed at work, but you’re clearly doing more than your fair share of things and that should be noticed.

      1. Lucy P*

        It is what it is, but I’m trying to learn but knowing what I should do and not following what the higher-ups do.

        Basic question, do people need to be thanked on a regular basis for doing their jobs?

        1. Mill Miker*

          I think it depends on the tasks, and which bits of their jobs people like. Some things are more routine than others, and sometime even the routine things require exceptional effort.

          A lot of jobs never require people to step outside of their assigned duties, and if those are off-limits for extra praise, then the job literally becomes thankless. Showing up every day and doing a good job is plenty of effort, even if you have a piece of paper that describes it as the bare minimum.

    2. Althea*

      I think it’s a perfectly justified feeling! I’ve realized more over the years how powerful it is to be acknowledged in this way. It’s not costly, either – just takes a bit of notice and the formulation of the words by someone else.

      Consider your SO. If they said “I love you” once at the beginning of the relationship and then never again, would it feel good? You might know they love you, but the statement is a powerful affirmation of the relationship and ongoing feelings.

      With work, thank-yous and other acknowledgements are also great ways to affirm people. If no one ever told you that you were doing a good job, would you continue to feel that you were for years? Even if you are just getting done what you were supposed to, a good coworker or manager should be cognizant that they can rely on you to do it well/right/on time consistently. And it feels great to hear that people rely on you and consider what you do important.

      So – yes. That manager was a bit of a dope to say that and not follow it up with some kind of acknowledgement. It’s not a must-do, but anyone would appreciate getting it.

      1. Lucy P*

        Thank you. I’m not really looking for justification, just an idea on how to treat my team going forward.

        Like I said, I’ve tried to show appreciation for the bigger things. I’ve also tried with the day-to-day stuff by bringing people coffee, breakfast, treats, whatever. I have no say over salary or incentives, so I have nothing to offer there.

        1. Althea*

          In that case I would say not to limit yourself to the bigger things. You’ve seen a couple of cases where saying something appreciative would have helped; conversely, could you possibly do any harm by saying more thank-yous? Try to notice some smaller things to acknowledge for each person you work with.

    3. tangerineRose*

      “team members got mad a me because I didn’t pat them on the back for a specific task they had done. It was something mundane that was part of their assigned duties.” This team member seems high maintenance to me.

      I do think it’s a good thing to praise people who are going above and beyond.

  94. Laney Boggs*

    Interviewing question: What questions do you ask to make sure a job won’t bore you? How would you answer “why are you leaving” if it’s because you’re bored? Or should I stick with it’s not my field/I want to relocate (both true)?

    For context: I have an English degree, but I’m okay not using it for teaching/writing/editing. My job is mindnumbingly dull. Its billed as “Retail Customer Service” but really it’s data entry? You receive Purchase Orders, enter them if they’re manual. Check for price issues (ctrl+f8). Check for stock issues(ctrl+f4) Check for credit issue (you need to use the mouse for this!) Email relevant party if there is an issue. Check for stock issues every day until order ships. Oh, and I get usually 5 new orders per day (I did check this, bc there isnt anything else to do)

    I’ve read hundreds of pages of AAM. I’ve gone through 6 full seasons of the NoSleep podcast. I’ve asked for more accounts. I have to get out before my brain turns to mush.

    1. Former Non Profit*

      You can screen jobs with questions and follow-up comments like, “What’s the workload like on an average day? I prefer to be too busy than not have enough to do!” or “I enjoy being able to expand the tasks I handle on a regular basis. I love the challenge of learning new things.”

  95. A. Ham*

    I’m feeling a little… uneasy in my job. I’m about 7 months in and I think doing pretty well. The work is interesting and I like my co-workers and the company. It’s not the actual job itself. The thing is, before the hiring process began my manager convinced the higher ups that there was more than enough work to replace the person that left with two people. So, I was hired at the same time as another person, and now am part of a team of 6 that was originally 5.
    We started during a traditionally slow time (and I’ve been in the business for a while, so I knew it was going to be slower) and that was actually pretty nice for training purposes. But now that we are in the bulk of the year I get nervous about the amount of work available. I mean, sure there have definitely been super busy times where we are all working hard and have plenty to do, but then there are times that are slow and i’ll go a week (or more!) with only a few projects and quite a bit of down time (when, often, I do have an unfinished project but I’m waiting for something from another department for a piece of the puzzle before I can finish, and I literally have NOTHING to do in the meantime.) I do believe that the work is being distributed evenly between the two of us- its not like he’s getting everything and I have nothing, but I wonder more and more if they REALLY needed to hire two of us and what that means for my job in the long run.
    I want to just trust my boss- shes been doing this a long time and knows what she needs. my worries are probably silly… but the more often that I feel like there is nothing to do, the more anxious I get.

    1. Insurance Mom*

      See above… flu season or personal issues. Perhaps ask about cross training opportunities?

  96. Bob Ghengis Khan*

    This is more a vent-sesh than anything else, but I’m just irritated as heck about it. I manage a team of 10 in a cube farm situation. One of my fellow managers, Regina George, has one of those plug-in essential oils diffusers going right now. So do 3 other people on her team, all with different essential oils and all with competing scents. It’s triggering a migraine for me. I had to be THAT GUY and go to my director about it. His response was, “Let me check with HR to see what our policy is on those.” Meanwhile, Regina George’s cube looks like a mad scientist’s lab from all the scented steam.

    Some humans just have no consideration for anyone else.

    1. MissGirl*

      No advice, sorry, just commiseration. My city holds essential oil conferences. The second the train stops and the doors open, I know it’s that time of year. I can’t imagine smelling that weird mix every single day.

      1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

        They probably don’t manage their peer (fellow co manager). Besides, it’s far more polite to simply ask (I am sorry but the scents do make me ill. Can you please not use them/use one only/use lemon as it doesn’t make me ill, etc.)

    3. Bagpuss*

      Can you speak to them directly?
      If you make it a “I’m sorry to have to ask, but it’s making me ill” conversation they may be willing to give them up.

    4. Windchime*

      Ugh, I hate those things. I don’t think they would be allowed where I work; at least, I’ve not seen one here. Strong scents will either give me a migraine or an asthma attack; I can tell when a certain person has been in the elevator because she bathes in perfume and I can smell it long after she’s gone.

  97. Anongineer*

    Does anyone have advice for living/working in Japan? I might be moving to Okinawa soon and want to see what other people have thought about it.

    1. Kinami*

      Be on time for everything! Though Okinawa is a bit more relaxed than the mainland, in general, if you’re not at least 5-10 minutes early for a meeting or gathering, you’re late.

      Dress well – appearance is very important in Japan, and your coworkers will likely be wearing more formal clothes than at the equivalent position in the States, if that’s where you are now.

      Don’t expect to hear “no” – it’s not polite in Japanese culture to clearly refuse an idea or request. “That’s difficult” is, functionally, a no. “I’m not sure that’s a good idea” means “You really shouldn’t do that.”

      That said, as a non-Japanese person, you will probably be excused many things that would not be accepted from a Japanese person. Don’t stress too much, carefully observe how your coworkers behave, and you will do fine! Japan is a wonderful place to live and work, I spent several years there and I miss it.

    2. Working in J-Land*

      I haven’t been to Okinawa yet, but I have worked in pretty disparate parts of the country (rural vs. Tokyo).

      Culture is pretty different across the country, more so for Okinawa I’ve heard. The stereotype is, basically, Okinawa is more laid back. Dialects are more different from “standard” Japanese the further away from Tokyo you get, so you’ll get to learn some cool vocab.

      Okinawa is also where a big US base is, so there’s a bunch of US influence locally. It’ll probably be easier to find groceries you’re used to and communities to join. The only A&W in Japan is in Okinawa, lol.

      Other than that, a lot of your experience will hinge on if you’re working for a Japanese company or not, if you’re going to need a car (more chance of this in Okinawa), if you’re moving with family, if you know any of the language, etc. You’re probably best off finding expat groups on the internet and asking around for specific advice.

      Personally I’ve had a pretty easy time adjusting/living here, which I attribute to my path here and my language abilities, but those aren’t the only factors that make the experience of living here good.

  98. Cat Meow*

    Is there an Academia equivalent blog to Ask A Manager? Reading AAM regularly has been life changing for me. I noticed Allison sometimes puts in a disclaimer about not knowing the ins and outs of academia, a field I will be transitioning into in the next year. I would be interested in hearing your favorite Academia blog (looking for similar advice to Allison’s, about culture, norms, dilemmas, etc). Thank you!

    1. Entry-Level Marcus*

      I’ve heard good things about The Professor is In (haven’t read her much myself, but I know a number of people in graduate school), though I think she focuses more on preparing for the job market and job hunting than on workplace politics and such.

      1. Combinatorialist*

        Seconding the Professor Is In. She does have a lot of prep for the job market and job hunting, but it isn’t all that. It is also about culture, norms, dilemmas and what you need to succeed at different levels. However, that part is very much geared towards the tenure track (including graduate school leading up to it).

      2. Samwise*

        The Professor Is In is great if you are faculty or Academic admin (dean type of jobs). I’m in academic adjacent (used to be on the faculty side) and I find it not at all pertinent to the issues I face in this part of academia.

    2. A few things are nice*

      The forums on the Chronicle of Higher Ed used to be pretty good. Not an advice column but peer info. There were subfora for folks who work in academe but are not faculty, too. Haven’t checked them out in a long time though so can’t say what they’re like now.

      1. Reliquary*

        The CHE Fora are no longer in operation. There is an independent (not CHE-affiliated) reboot at thefora dot org.

  99. caramelo*

    I was in the zone working on a project when my coworker interrupted me to tell me “When are you going to get your hair done? I noticed your roots are super grown out.” I just blurted out that I didn’t know when and she changed the subject to talk about something else. I really wish I could’ve told her right there at the moment that it was extremely inappropriate to come to me unprompted and comment on my appearance. Big sigh.

    1. Lisa M*

      When someone goes low – you go high and you did.

      Your co-worker sounds like she has no social skills.

    2. Windchime*

      I was trying to be in the zone the other day; I have some hard deadlines coming up and Chatty Sue was in rare form. I put on my noise cancelling headphones and just got started concentrating, when Chatty Sue came into my cube and waited for me to take off my headphones so she could ask me if I wanted any water. What? If I want water, I’ll get water. I snapped, “No, I just want to work.” I know it was rude but sheesh.
      And yeah, commenting on your roots was super weird. MYOB.

  100. anonnonnon*

    Question!

    I manage a remote team. We had a meeting in person two weeks ago and one of the women on my team seems visibly pregnant. (I’d guess 5 mos, but it’s always hard to tell.) But she didn’t explicitly tell anyone yet. And I’m at a loss as to how to handle it.

    We’re in sales, so her role is one for which we’d need to figure out coverage while she is out for her benefit as well as ours.

    thx!

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      You can’t say anything to her. She very well may not be pregnant at all. If she needs leave, I’m sure she’ll bring it up, but don’t go there first.

    2. Havarti*

      I recommend not saying anything. Hopefully she’ll say something at the meeting or right before. But start thinking about how to handle coverage so you have a plan of some sort to work with (divide work, bring in another person, etc.). What’s been usually done in the past?

    3. IT But I Can't Fix Your Printer*

      Definitely can’t say or do anything specific about it. But there’s no harm in generally being prepared for coverage (because you never know when someone who looks completely healthy could be out suddenly for months with a serious injury, for example). Does your team have solid documentation of all processes that this woman does? Can you do more cross-training? Can you put a 1 hr/week meeting on everyone’s calendar for the next few months to block out time for them to work on these goals?

      1. Ama*

        Seconding this. You can’t take any actual action until she tells you, but prepping for general long-term coverage is a good idea.

    4. Introvert girl*

      Trust me, don’t say anything. I once congratulated my hairdresser (thought she was 5-6 months pregnant), she wasn’t.

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Agreeing with all of the other commenters:

      1) You don’t do anything.
      2) You don’t actually know they’re pregnant.
      3) Always have a back-up plan in case ANYONE is out for an extended period for any reason.

    6. Fikly*

      Agreed, do not say anything.

      I am on a medication that makes me look about that pregnant. I am not pregnant. Everyone asks me when I am due. It’s getting old.

  101. Triumphant Fox*

    How does it work for you if you’re exempt and go home early because you’re sick? Are you required to take PTO for the hours you haven’t worked?

    1. ThatGirl*

      I suspect this depends on the company and how early you’re talking. We have separate sick time, but if it’s just an hour or two probably my manager would tell me not to worry about it. Half a day or more and I’d use that.

    2. fposte*

      Most employers have policy on partial-day PTO–does yours anywhere? For mine it’s either half day or full day, so if I just left an hour or two early I wouldn’t use PTO but I would if it was more than that.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Totally, it’s up to company policy – mine is 1/2 day increments for vacation time but only full day for sick days. So even if I work an hour and then go home, I don’t claim it as sick time.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      In general or personal experience? My personal experience is a mix depending on the day/circumstance. I can only take 4 hr blocks of PTO and I normally work more than 40 hrs. If I have 40 hrs to put on my time sheet already and am only leaving an hour or two early, I don’t take PTO, but if I needed 4 hrs off and hadn’t worked extra, yes, I have to take PTO.

      Some companies are more flexible. . .probably ones who don’t have to do auditable timesheets.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We use sick leave for those days or comp time because exempt employees have that bank as well. If they’re out of both, they’re still paid of course, we take them into the negatives and draw on future time. It’s not ideal but it’s to keep hourly and exempt folks to the same standards is what the big bosses say.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Also you can use PTO in hour increments, we changed that because they 4hr blocks was unfair and draining people of PTO too quickly when they seriously only needed an hour here or an hour there. I protect people’s PTO like it’s my own gold pile, needless to say.

    5. LunaMei*

      It depends on your company. I work for a state university, and we are considered a “state entity”, so we have to follow pretty strict rules about PTO and leave, because we receive funding from state dollars, so all that has to be accounted for in some fashion. If I go home early, I have to use sick time, or any comp time I’ve accrued. Additionally, I can’t just leave early and not work a full 40 hours that week if my work is done…I have to put in 40 hours somehow. Though my boss and dept are pretty flexible with how I organize those 40 hours.

    6. Jen Mahrtini*

      Your employer may require you to use available PTO for the hours not at work, but cannot dock your pay for a partial-day absence (unless intermittent FMLA applies).

    7. Triumphant Fox*

      Thanks everyone! It’s not super clear where I am- we can use PTO in hour long increments, so that’s what I do, and we don’t have sick leave or comp time, so it’s all one pot. I wasn’t sure what general practice was with exempt employees.

  102. ursula*

    I have a question about COL increases that I’d love this group’s input on. My nonprofit (~12-14 ppl, core funding) gives us annual COL bumps based on federal guidelines, so usually about 1.5-2%. Great! But we are based in one of the fastest gentrifying cities in North America, where average rent for a 1-BR apartment just hit $2300/month. When I started with my employer 6 years ago, you could find very modest 1-BRs or studios for under $1000/month. Today, the literal cheapest, dumpiest apartment listing I could find in a search was $1600, and boy you wouldn’t want to live there. $1800-2000 is more realistic for a person who lives very simply. For reference, in that 6 years I have been promoted twice and my salary has gone up by more than 50%, and STILL if I wasn’t sharing a 1-br with my partner, I would be spending a higher portion of my take-home salary today on rent than I would have when I was fresh out of school. Many, many, many of us are trying to figure out if we can afford to stay in this city.

    My question is: my Executive Director has owned her house (a detached in a cool neighbourhood that is a 20-min walk from work) for 10 years. Likewise the other most senior staff person besides me. They both got in before the insanity. I’m sure they see articles about the rising cost of living here and there, but I don’t think they’re feeling it the way the rest of staff (renters, down to a person) are. My ED is great, principled and caring, and we have a history of working through difficult challenges facing the organization together. We have a lot of trust and respect. So: should I raise this with her as an issue? I know for a fact that it’s a problem for staff, and it will continue to be, and I just wonder if she’s not truly understanding the situation because of her personal situation.

    Or does this just sound like self-interested fishing for money? Is this something a nonprofit couldn’t possible be expected to address? Help, I need perspective.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You can approach it as a retention issue, have you had any turnover because people cannot afford to work there?!

      For us, we had to raise our payscale considerably because well you can’t find really great people who will stick around for very long if you cannot pay them enough to even pay their rent comfortably.

      1. ursula*

        Yeah, we have had some turnover, but given that we employ mostly people in their 20s-30s, their reasons tend to be things where cost is probably a factor but not determinative (eg. going back to school, moving for partner’s new job in new city, etc). So we haven’t really, directly had it as a turnover problem yet, though I think it’s in the mix.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Oh but it plays into their reason, they’re rarely ever going to say “I’m leaving because you’re not paying me enough.”

          It’s also something to keep in mind that these wages are keeping you from filling the positions with people who are more likely to not leave the area as quickly because it brings in the people who say “oh I can retire there” when you have proper wages. Which is what we aim for in the end, we can take forever to even fill the openings and then we are faced with only people interested are of the transient nature because they’re okay with that few dollars for now until they move on to their next adventure.

    2. KR*

      I think it’s totally fair to raise it with her! Maybe something like, “Jane, I wanted to talk to you about something. I’m sure you have seen the articles about the rental market in our city. While I appreciate our COL raises, I’m finding that I don’t have as much buying power as I did years ago. It’s impossible to find a studio/ 1 bed apartment for under $1,600 a month. If I didn’t split my rent with my partner, I would have to spend X percent of my pay on rent alone. while I am fortunate enough to be able to afford it I feel for our more junior employees. Is there a way we could re-evaluate our pay rates?”

      A job where I was being significantly underpaid, though not due to inflation like in your case. What helped for the leadership at that job was me and my supervisor doing a study of similarly sized organizations in our area and how they were paying people who did my job. From there we were able to justify a pay increase of over $10 an hour to our very fiscally conservative leadership.

      1. ursula*

        Thanks for weighing in on whether this is reasonable/fair – your script is totally an approach I could see myself taking.
        One of my challenges here is that because our org is law-adjacent, we are already paid better than comparator orgs (though nowhere near what we could make for government or the private sector). But that doesn’t change how much rent costs, you know? Like, it just means that the market is chewing up those other people even worse. So it’s tough – I’m sure those other organizations are either bleeding talent, stuck with old staff who got into the housing market before the boom, or living off millennials/GenZ who have accepted that they’re going to have 3-5 roommates for the rest of their lives but its better than driving for Uber. It’s honestly gotten really grim around here.
        Side note: huge respect & congrats on your success advocating for yourself and your coworkers, that truly rules.

        1. Wow. Just wow.*

          “I’m sure those other organizations are either bleeding talent, stuck with old staff who got into the housing market before the boom…”

          …
          …

          I hope you didn’t mean that to come off as ageist, rude, and dismissive of older workers’ talents as it sounds.

          1. Princesa Zelda*

            The way I read it was that the staff was old as in “from before,” not old as in “over the age of 65” or whatever. A 30-year-old would be old in this context if they’d been hired and bought a house before the gentrification started.

          2. ursula*

            My mistake, you’re right and I didn’t. I meant to depict this group as merely a smaller talent pool, but I see now how it came out. Sorry and thanks for pointing this out to me.

    3. Ali G*

      One thing you might want to do is ask how the COLA is being calculated. Our non-profit uses the Consumer Price Index – if your COLA is not keeping up with inflation, it’s not a COLA!
      I think our was closer to 2.5% this year (2019)? I’d do some digging on that. It seems you are being shorted on even the basic increases.

    4. Policy wonk*

      Since they use the government COL guidelines, you might want to check if the government provides locality pay in your area, and if that has increased as well. Locality pay can be a significant bump to established pay scales.

      1. Policy wonk*

        And use the locality pay adjustment as the basis for the raise you request. And give them the federal tables to back it up. (Sorry – posted before I finished my thought!)

  103. WorkingGirl*

    Rant time?

    So, our website has been… having issues. Our office wifi is completely blocked from even viewing company.com. I can view the website when I’m on my home wifi / not in the office; but to log in to wordpress I can’t even use my actual account, I have to use the admin account. But I can only do that, if i’m not in the office – and i only work remotely one day a week.

    So, clearly we’re all stressed. Boss has the intern working on a blog post, for which… she needs to look at our website for past client info. So he tells her to pull it up on her phone.

    I mention that hey we really need to get the website fixed… historically my boss has an issue of, NOT ACTUALLY GETTING THINGS FIXED and just using whatever “solution” he comes up with even if it isn’t actually a workable solution or does anything to address the issue at hand. So then he snaps, all condescending and rudely – “YOU THINK???”

    Ok – maybe I didn’t need to say “we really need to get the website fixed” – but also, I felt the need to say that because soooo many times I’ve asked to get something “fixed” and instead am given a shoddy workaround that feels disorganized and/or unprofessional. Honestly I really hate anytime someone snaps at me, and like… my boss has said NOT A WORD to me about the website so I had no idea if he even had a word on fixing it.

    1. KR*

      Your boss was being a jerk. He needed to get this fixed yesterday. Do you outsource your IT or is it a major company (so corporate IT) or maybe an in-house person? I wonder if your boss might be open to you taking over communications with IT so you can be the one to bug them to fix it and get it done right.

      1. WorkingGirl*

        We outsource, and the company we outsource to sucks at getting anything done in a timely manner.

        This has been going on since TUESDAY

        1. Queenie*

          As a web-developer/IT I am so sorry about this… It sounds like for whatever reason your work IP address has been blocked by the hosting/server company. If you have access to the company or contact details, I suggest sending them an email demanding help and asking them to unblock your IP address asap. Hope this helps!!

  104. windsofwinter*

    Someone lit incense in my (open plan) office yesterday. Incense. IN AN OFFICE. People will never cease to amaze me.

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I’ll see your lit incense and raise you two separate people either burning candles or using wax melts. With different scents. In a 15 person office.

        1. valentine*

          “While we’ve never seen the need to specifically ban mass in the office… Also, the shipment of kneelers will be returned to sender if not removed from the loading dock by EOB today.”

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would have quipped “It smells like the 70’s in here, mom is that you?!”

      I’m so confused that incense is still a thing.

      Also yeah, I’d go snuff it out and call it a safety violation but we literally don’t allow anything lit inside, that’s not a thing here.

      1. windsofwinter*

        She “only lit it for 5 seconds” but there was such an uproar that I don’t think we will be subject to it anymore in the future.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I’m double the cantankerous this week so I just did a grinch smile at my desk. I’m glad the rest of your team wasn’t having any of it either. Bless her heart.

    4. Llama Face!*

      Oh that is terrible! Here we just have essential oil diffuser users multiplying like tribbles (in what is supposed to be a scent-free office btw). I am trying to work up courage to be the fun ruiner who talks to the boss about it because it is not great for headaches. “Natural” scents are still scents, people! Sigh.

      1. WellRed*

        We had one of those plug in things that you melt scented wax (?) in in the ladies room for awhile. Not sure what happened to it but it smelled like hot plastic apples.

    6. Chaordic One*

      This would never fly in my office. Possible fire hazard and you’d have the building safety people on your case in minutes.

  105. Dream Jobbed*

    Has anyone just found a pertinent AAM question and answer for a situation similar to something they are going through, and just put it up on a bulletin board?

    I just read the question about the person who has the mastectomy and had a coworker who was questioning her possible medial diagnosis and procedures for month, in spite of the LW trying to keep her private medical business private. When LW finally went to the boss for help, boss escalated to HR and now people are upset with LW. (WTF?) Allison’s response was great, and would have been perfect to show horribly her co-workers were treating her. (Okay, not perfect because we know her private medical stuff now, which she doesn’t want her co-workers to know. But pretend it was a case like that without the medical stuff. Just Allison saying their being jerks which I think they need to hear.)

    If you’ve ever done it, did it help?

    1. fposte*

      I think I wouldn’t; it’s too close to leaving it on somebody’s chair as a Pointed Passive-Aggressive Message.

    2. Amity*

      I haven’t done that but I’ve saved screen shots and printed some conversations. Mostly just for me though.

  106. Sprinkles*

    Does anyone know how gardening leave works in the uk?
    Say your contract says you have a 4 week notice period and 3 months gardening leave, does that mean you serve your 4 week notice at work then the remaining 2 months at home? Or work the 4 week notice, then start the 3 months gardening leave? Or something else?
    All I can find online is explanations of what gardening leave actually is and why it’s a thing.

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Usually if you get gardening leave it is because you know sensitive materials or information. For example, in my office folks are put on gardening leave immediately when they let people know they are leaving. They work out their notice period (1-3 months usually, sometimes up to 6) from home. Gardening leave replaces your notice period – you get paid for being at home!

      I have known of people on gardening leave who then start their new job before the end of the first leave period,but I don’t know about the legalities of that. In that instance you pull down two paychecks for the time period.

      1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        Edit – they don’t do work at home when they ‘work out their notice’. They just get to leave, but cannot start work at another company necessarily. We issue gardening leavers with a unique email address in case someone has a question on a project, but it is more or less understood that they are no contact.

    3. Bagpuss*

      I haven’t come across a situation where gardening leave is written into the contract (not saying that it couldn’t be)

      Normally it would be something the employer would decide when an employee gives notice. The gardening leave is part of the notice period so if your notice period is 3 months, the employer might decide you have to come to work to finish any projects/ manage a handover, taking (say) a month , then put you on gardening leave for the remaining time.

      (& starting a new job while on leave isn’t appropriate and would normally be a breach of contract with your first employer, since even on gardening leave you are technically still employed and should be available. )

  107. MustLikeDogs*

    Feeling manipulated by a coworker who gave me a different story about dealing with mental illness so she could justify working from home, but turns out she just wanted to get a dog.

    I was hesitant to even discuss WFH with her when she first approached me because she’s notoriously late, is inaccurate in her work, and basically does what she wants. I brainstormed with her and asked if maybe WFH part-time might work better. Well, she went to her manager with that suggestion and said it was my idea and that I recommended it!

    Since her manager thought I was vouching for her, he agreed, but let her WFH full time temporarily so the dog could get acclimated. Now she’s asking to stay WFH full-time, which I’m totally against for a few reasons.

    I’m a project manager who assigns work to her, but she doesn’t report to me. When I call her out on quality issues, she becomes dismissive and argumentative (I’ve had a hard conversation with her about her behavior, but it hasn’t changed much). when her manager came to me wanting input about should he allow her to WFH full time, I let him know of my concerns and that her mistakes cause others to shoulder her work as well as make more work for me (I oversee her and other contractors work).

    She’s also 20 minutes from the office and there are other contractors who have 1.5 hour commutes each way who are more deserving of WFH, so I’m worried about the team being resentful.

    Not to mention I’m resentful that I feel like she used my good standing and reputation to get what she wanted.

    How do I let this go? I need to continue to work with her and need to have a better relationship, but right now I’m irrational.

    1. WellRed*

      If they allow her to WFH despite your (proven) concerns, that’s a bigger concern then letting this go.

    2. Bananatiel*

      The thing that really sticks out to me here is that you have long-standing major issues that remain unsolved and I can totally see why it’s driving the resentment about WFH now. If I put my Alison hat on I think she’d recommend approaching her manager about the quality issues first and foremost especially since your previous conversation with her went nowhere. And if it really is getting a to a level where her work is unacceptable I’d be using exactly that language and not sugarcoating it. See if the two of you can arrive at an agreeable plan to monitor and correct her.

      In a reasonable workplace (and I’ve worked in many unreasonable so I know how it is), I’d imagine her WFH privileges will naturally be taken away as part of a broader plan of action. But I do fear that if you bring up her WFH by itself you might make your resentment known to her manager and they’d be less likely to act in a way that would help you actually work with her.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yes, I think your issues with her performance are coloring your feelings about her WFH situation. Others have addressed the fact that commute shouldn’t be a factor in WFH agreements- the type and quality of work should be. I would keep this about the quality of her work and not about WFH. You need to address the root problem.

    3. ACDC*

      I don’t think it would be unreasonable to go back to the manager and explain the misunderstanding as well as your concerns with this person being full-time WFH. The manager could tell you to pound sand because the decision was already made, but I think it’s worth bringing up. You never know, there could be a good outcome!

      1. valentine*

        go back to the manager and explain the misunderstanding as well as your concerns with this person being full-time WFH.
        Yes. Ideally, you would have done this as soon as you found out about the dog. Tell your manager and him that she told you a different story (don’t say she lied) and you would never secondhand vouch for someone or overstep because WFH is his to decide. And say she doesn’t take feedback well. It sounds like you’re doing too much managing without authority to impose consequences.

        And, in future, refer anyone who discloses mental illness to their managers. Your (even if just perceived) position of power affects the dynamic. You’re not just someone who can help brainstorm. Even your alleged word carries weight. (Weird that he didn’t say he wanted to hear from you directly before allowing WFH even that first time.)

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      I would make sure you and her manager talked to get aligned on how this whole thing went down, and discuss what that means for the future and her outstanding request. Because this employee misrepresented (or flat out lied) to her manager IN YOUR NAME to get this set up when you already had concerns about her work. You need to not let her act as the communication go between for you and her manager. You and the manager need to talk and come to an agreement/understanding.

    5. Kathenus*

      Just wanted to make a quick comment on another part of your post, about people with longer commutes being more deserving of WFH. Personally I don’t think that someone’s choice of living location should be a factor in making decisions on who does/doesn’t get offered this, otherwise people who live closer are essentially being punished with lack of flexibility. WFH should be allowed if it meets the needs of the job and organization, people’s personal situations (family or not, close or far, etc.) shouldn’t be deciding factors, in my opinion.

      1. Easily Amused*

        I read that as they were more deserving of WFH because their work quality and/or output is much better than this employee’s. Though the thing that stands out to me is that OP even broached any WFH even on a part time basis given this person’s work issues. Gave her an inch and she took a mile which she couldn’t have done if the door to WFH had not been opened at all. That doesn’t absolve employee from lying but she should have been told, in no uncertain terms, that WFH can’t be considered until her work improves.

  108. TiredofThis*

    So, long story short my coworkers are cliquey bullies. I’m young, 24, and we work in technology entertainment in the customer facing side of things. As is classic with customer service tangential roles, professional norms are way skewed and the personal often comes into work. My boss is aware of my coworkers behavior and has spoken to them, but they just bring it mostly underground until one of them accidentally mentions something they said about me to each other. I’m exhausted, tired of having to be so defensive and guarded. My job is otherwise exciting and challenging and I know the company sees and values me/my work. My question is: how do you not let it get to you? How do you not let the cliques and comments take up so much space in your head? I’m tired of being sad and tired of having anxiety attacks thinking about work. I’m not looking to change jobs, just looking for coping strategies.

    1. MustLikeDogs*

      This is the worst! Gossipy cliques are the worst. Do you have enough experience to be able to find a new job that would be a better fit culturally? If you need to stay in your current role for experience, find your own crew :) there are lots of people out there who just want to be better professionally and will raise you up.

      1. TiredofThis*

        I’m one of three people on my level, the other two are the bullies. The only other people is my boss above me, some tech folks who are neutral, and then my staff. I’m alone in this. Everything else is a cultural fit, I refuse to quit just because two people are the worst yaknow?

        1. Ra94*

          I would gently challenge this, because staying out of principle doesn’t really benefit you! It’s more than just two people being the worst: it’s being in an environment where people are allowed to be bullies and no one deals with the issue.

    2. Bananatiel*

      Well, my first piece of advice is going to be to consider changing jobs even though it’s not what you want right now. Mostly because it sounds like this is an environment that will not change and you shouldn’t suffer for it.

      As a second piece of advice if you want to stick it out, I humbly suggest therapy– it’s a great resource if you can afford it and have access to it. That should go a long way toward helping you cope with that environment and developing strategies to combat it.

      You also might want to consider directly confronting those that you know are gossiping about you– if you confront any of these people and they STILL have the gall to gossip about you I’d take that as a huge red flag about the working environment as a whole.

      I’ve dealt with some really nasty cultures in previous jobs and let me just tell you– there ARE good working environments in every industry and they take some effort to find but I promise it’s worth it to seek them out.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      1) Therapy
      2) Switch to a mindset of “This is just a job”
      3) Focus on drawing on other areas of your life to build your sense of meaning/worth/community (e.g. friends, family, volunteer work, hobbies)
      4) Adopt objective detachment of these alien organisms who apparently find nourishment from negativity and are too stupid to keep it to themselves
      5) Imagine them all in their underwear, wearing tiny hats and monocles (I dunno, that seems like it would make things funnier)

  109. QuittingTomorrow*

    I need some advice/insights into a tricky and complicated situation with a potential employer. I’ll try to be as brief as possible.
    The background: I’m currently an expat who moved for job opportunity and to be with my partner (also an expat, not legally married). The organization I worked for handled my visa. I quit (another story!) in September and was told it was fine to stay here until my visa expires in March and after that I can get a different visa independently. We’re staying until my partner finishes his contract later this year and we’ll relocate to wherever we can find a job.
    A couple weeks before I left my job I applied for an advertisement for an international home-based position – which I assumed sounded perfect for me given our future plans. I completed the written test and an interview and the employer contacted my three references.
    During the interview I said I was no longer at the previous organization and they asked if I still planned on staying here. This is when everything starts. Following the interview, the HR manager asked me what kind of visa I was on and if I was allowed to work here – I said yes (because at this point I was thinking of the “international home-based” nature of the position). Then they requested a copy of my passport, my visa and a document that proved I could work here. I sent the first two and said I’d try to get the other.
    Then, the HR manager called me to say that although an international position was advertised, they would have to hire me as local because I was “being locally recruited, no travel is involved and it is a home-based position”. Was I still interested? I responded saying that I could consider a local offer “contingent on the terms and compensation package”. I still needed the document stating I could work here. I wrote to try to get information on my type of visa and even personally went to two offices that handle visa and immigration here and couldn’t get clarification. My previous employer clarified that my visa does not grant me a local work permit so I cannot work locally. And now basically the employer is telling me they will only make me an offer if the local authorities confirm that I’m able to work here.
    Mind you, in no point during this process I was officially offered the job and salary was not mentioned at any point. I know I should have been more transparent in regards to my visa status and avoided this whole situation, which has been going on for OVER TWO MONTHS– but I didn’t want to mention I left my previous job before my contract was up – and I felt I was in the less powerful position not knowing how home-based positions hires work and the fact that I was unemployed. But I feel like I fell into a trap – a local contract pays a lot less than an international one, so it’d work out great for them. They asked if I agreed to a change without offering any terms. In part, I also fed the situation because I wanted to know the terms of the offer. Now, I’d just like to know if I should just graciously say “Thanks, but this is not gonna work out after all” or if I can, you know, nicely say “This has not been cool” and “I don’t want to work for you anymore, anyway”.
    Thoughts?

    2. Killer Queen*

      I don’t think any of this is on you! The power imbalance until you have a written job offer means you don’t lay all your cards on the table – you try to get the info to make your decision and only tell them what is necessary. Imagine if your situation were about pregnancy, not about visas and where you live. Say you’re trying to get pregnant at the time of the interviews. You ask, when they offer you the job, what their family leave policy is. They ask if you’re pregnant – you say no, because you aren’t yet as far as you know, but it’s a possibility any day now, and you’re hopeful that you will be very soon. In their mind, it’s a great option because you aren’t about to take family leave. But you’re weighing factors you don’t want to tell them yet. That’s all it is to me! Can you say, you’d prefer to stick to the arrangement that was originally offered – the one that made you APPLY in the first place? Until you actually have a written offer with terms to consider, I wouldn’t get any more deep than that. They are trying to exploit a potential loophole without knowing that it isn’t the right option for their top choice candidate! But it seems greedy of them. For all they know, you have dreams of traveling the world – you don’t need to explain why, but you can tell them that international home-based IS the job you’re looking for and that detail is VERY important to you.

  110. Bananatiel*

    This is a relatively simple request but I could use some gentle scripts to “close” a project at work.

    Long story short I’ve been working on this for about ~6 months. The first phase was quick and straightforward, I’m a designer and was tasked with creating a background for some labels. Got that done and approved quickly. The second phase should not have been my responsibility from the get-go IMO. The admin who needed the labels now needs to run a mail merge in Word to generate large groups of labels for various projects throughout the year. Apparently, the previous designer who made the first label background helped the admin with this task. Well– it’s been about five months of back-and-forth assisting her on this and… I’m done. Mostly because I have much bigger fish to fry.

    Part of the issue is that the Word document wasn’t centering the data on the labels and I really, truly believe I have gotten the template as close as possible to perfect with changes I made this week. I even ran a test. If she has issues with it I honestly don’t even know what modifications I’d make at this point because I’m not a specialist in Word. At one point when we were having trouble I just made an InDesign document to run a data merge with her excel sheets because that was easier than trying to figure out Word lol.

    If she needs more assistance my thought is to frame it as “I’ve done as much as I possibly can and can no longer help” which feels weird because I work on things way more complicated than this (HTML coding, etc). But at the same time it’s her job as the admin to be the Word/Microsoft Office specialist and not me!

    1. Automated*

      Ohhhhh I feel you!

      First, loop in your boss and see how much she wants you helping/spending time on this. Maybe they want you to keep helping.

      Then come up with a strategy from your boss to extract from this one.

      Then on future projects never volunteer to help people with this stuff. Seriously as ts folks we get 0 props for this and usually nothing but grief so Just. Dont. Do. It. Same goes for printer jams. Never help with those ever unless you want to be the printer ts person the rest of your life.

      1. valentine*

        Five months is way too much. Is there even an issue with the background? It sounds like she doesn’t know how to mail merge. She should’ve asked her team for help.

        1. Bananatiel*

          Thank you both! I’m sure neither of you will see this at this point but I appreciate it. I’ll let my boss know it’s ongoing in our next 1:1 because she definitely isn’t aware I’m still providing assistance on it.

          I do have a suspicion the admin isn’t comfortable with/doesn’t actually know how to do the merges. The labels are pre-printed with the background so it’s just a matter of putting them in the printer and then printing the merged document. But she’s been a little weird about asking me to work with a specific word document even though she could connect the excel to any of the files I’ve provided… anyway, I’m guessing my boss will be shocked I’m still working on this and we’ll get it figured out so I don’t have to worry about it anymore!

  111. Epsilon Delta*

    (content warning: miscarriage)

    Well, I am on sick day #2 due to my miscarriage. I probably could have (and in hindsight, should have) gone to work yesterday, as I felt fine physically and about 80% fine emotionally, but I just didn’t feel like being around other people. Last night, I was up until 4 AM, so obviously I’m useless today and had to take a second sick day. Plus it’s just easier to deal with the physical side effects in private. Emotionally I’m fine, other than being anxious about when the physical stuff will subside (this was not 100% planned; we tried for awhile, no luck, and were getting ready to call it quits since we already have a kid — so, it’s sad but not devastating).

    It sucks that all our PTO is lumped into one bucket and it accrues throughout the year, so now I’m going to end up being a day negative after I go on my planned vacation in February. My boss is totally fine with it, but I don’t like not having a buffer in case I get sick in the next few months. I am really glad tomorrow is Saturday. I am also really glad that I work for a decent company, even if their PTO setup is not ideal.

    If you’ve had a miscarriage, how much time did you take off work? Or, tell me about something else that happened where you had to take off work longer than you expected.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I went to work the day I had a miscarriage because it happened in the middle of the night and I didn’t know what to do (emotionally speaking). Once the dr. office opened, I went in there, so that was a day off, and I had a D&C the next day, and was off then. This was about 18 years ago, so I don’t remember if it was the weekend or what, but I don’t recall having a 3rd day off. I don’t think anyone would bat an eye if you had to take a whole week off. My situation wasn’t that hard for me emotionally or physically–I was young, I had one kid, it was early–but if someone else had to have more time, I’d respect that as a manager.

    2. NJBi*

      No advice, but just wanted to say that I’m so sorry about your miscarriage. I think taking yesterday and today is completely reasonable to give yourself time to rest and process. When you made the call to stay home Thursday, you probably didn’t know that you would feel physically and mainly emotionally okay, and maybe you wouldn’t have had you gone in to work.

    3. WellRed*

      If you’d gone to work yesterday, you probably would have realized you weren’t as OK to work as you may have thought, so its good you took it off. I’m sorry for your loss.

    4. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      My doctor gave me misoprostol and told me I’d “definitely want to be at home for the duration” so I took the time off. I felt crampy but not out of control, so in hindsight I was annoyed because I definitely could have gone to work and saved that PTO. The kicker was that the misoprostol didn’t work… so I did a second round of misoprostol (still didn’t work), then an in-office D&C (STILL didn’t work) and finally a surgical D&C. All told I took almost a week off for everything, and it was a giant pain in the ass. If I’d gone straight to the surgical D&C I’d have only needed to take one day– but of course it would have been impossible to know ahead of time. :-/

      1. Lemon Ginger Tea*

        Also, I’m sorry about your miscarriage. I had similar circumstances – we already have one kid and were surprisingly ok when it happened, emotionally speaking. I get where you’re coming from.

    5. Automated*

      Miscarriage qualifies for FMLA so if you havent definitely get that paperwork started.

      I had a second trimester miscarriage and was out for a week. Do you have esl you can use?

      Personally i waited until i was done hemoraging but emotionally i could have used more time.

    6. It’s All Good*

      I found on Friday at a dr visit. Has the D/C on Monday and took the whole week off. Hugs to you. If it ends up being too much emotionally please seek therapy. It helps.

  112. NeonDreams*

    Anyone had any success moving from customer service to another department internally? I’ve put out a few applications but have gotten rejected every time. Each one has an updated resume and cover letter. The internal positions are pretty competitive since my company is a large corporation. I’ve been in the company 5 years and feel like I have a decent knowledge that can translate into other skills. I badly want to get off the phones all day every day. Dealing with the public daily is so exhausting.

    Feeling discouraged with the process. Leaving would be disastrous because I’d lose income and health insurance. The rest of the jobs in my town are retail, hard labor, and healthcare. None of which i particular want to do and pay cut would be significant.

    1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      I have. And then they keep making me fill in when the customer service staff are out, because I’m good at it, even though the whole point was to get away from it to begin with.

    2. tangerineRose*

      I’ve done it, but it helped that my college degree was useful in the department I transferred to.

    3. Alan*

      I’ve recently made the move from customer service to another area in a large company so definitely understand how you feel.

      My best advice is to try to look at areas of the business you would want to transition to and let the manager in that area you would be interested in applying if anything came up. If you do apply for anything always make sure you position yourself as someone who is excited and interested in the new job rather than someone who just wants to get away from taking calls.

      And finally Good Luck!

  113. Very anon*

    This is going to be very vague but I’ve been struggling at work for the past two years. This week I had it. I went outside our department and whistleblew about something really serious. I’ve felt really bullied to follow the chain of command, which I’ve been doing. I’ve been doing everything I can to try to fix any non compliance before this. I was taken very seriously and I’m hoping this helps. I’m proud of myself.

    1. Buttons*

      Good for you. It is really hard to do what you are describing. I hope it was taken seriously and changes happen.

  114. TheItalianBunny*

    I love Open Thread time and omg time fly fast! 5 months out of 6 of my contract have gone by, i asked my manager when we could talk about my future and she said she’ll schedule a meeting in the next couple weeks. Finger crossed they’ll turn me on permanent.

    1. TheItalianBunny*

      Btw, i’m curious if it is just my country or if it is normal to have this little notice between contract end and an answer to ‘will you keep me working here?’

      1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        I worked contract in the UK and usually had the ‘what’s my future’ talk a few weeks before the end. Usually that meant they were extending the contract. A good line manager gave me a heads up when it was unlikely they were going to extend, so I had enough time to start looking.

        1. ItalianBunny*

          :) That’s cool! seems like it’s on par then. Yeah, usually good manager let you know a little earlier, but it’s not a given. Here is more common that they don’t tell you even when they plan to not extending, meh. I had people telling me the day before contract end in the past.

  115. Elenia*

    I have to talk to one of my staff about gossip. I’m really irritated that this conversation has to happen because I have been clear since I started I despise gossip*, won’t have it, and never gossip myself. The kind of gossip she is spreading is based out of fear, since she is telling a person she has heard that that person is going to lose their job, (Like, while talking to Jane: Budget cuts? Well, Jane,I heard you might be the first to go!) because she is terrified of losing her job. So I am somewhat sympathetic. But she has been here two years now and should know better.
    Other managers I have polled informally said they would fire her immediately. I feel like that’s a bit drastic…I want to at least give her a chance. Plus while I have had many conversations about gossip I haven’t come out and said, “You CANNOT gossip in this particular manner” – a lot of this has come out in the last few weeks because someone said something and I started digging.
    So I am going to have a Very Serious Conversation with her on Monday.
    Or am I thinking wrong? Should I go straight to working on transitioning her out? Am I not taking this seriously enough?
    * I don’t count valid work-related talk as gossip!

    1. IT But I Can't Fix Your Printer*

      It’s possible there is some kind of miscommunication here – not sure what, but at least you should ask her: “I heard that you explicitly told Jane that you knew she was going to be the first to go if there were budget cuts [plus XYZ other examples if you have them]. This is completely untrue. Can you tell me what information you heard that made you believe this?” and when she presumably is like ‘I completely made it up’ then you say ‘Lying to coworkers [because this is not ‘gossiping’ – this is saying things that are completely untrue] is unacceptable here. I have serious concerns about my ability to trust you” and decide where to go from there.

      Good luck!

      1. valentine*

        It’s not gossip. It’s a straight-up lie plus projecting. And you just don’t do this to colleagues, especially to the extreme of claiming their job is in jeopardy. Is she otherwise great?

    2. beanie gee*

      This sounds much more serious than what most people would describe as gossip. While I probably wouldn’t fire her outright, I would have a very serious conversation with her about how inappropriate it is to tell a coworker they are going to lose their job. I would ask her directly where she got that information and why she thought it was ok to spread that type of information to anyone, let alone Jane. Don’t frame it as gossip. Frame it as lying in the workplace, not treating coworkers with respect, and acting unprofessionally.

      1. Elenia*

        Thank you all, that helps a lot. I will use some of these scripts when I talk to her today. And she is otherwise great, kind warm, hard working, which is why I would like to retain her if possible!

  116. Jellicle Lovecraftian Horror Cat*

    Urghhhh has anyone seen that screenshot of the email going around from someone’s company saying they were concerned about an employees old, beat up car meant they were not financially stable and could commit fraud and not handle their job (because they know what they make, thus they believe they can afford a better car??) I am……appalled if it’s real. It seems real. Is that something a company can actually fire you for? I’m linking the email in my comment below.

    4. KR*

      I don’t know about firing when you are already an employee, but I have heard of companies doing credit checks for finance positions.

    5. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      I saw that! Infuriating. I drive a crap car because it’s fully paid off and drives just fine, no reason to replace it yet. How an employee spends their money is not up for discussion.

    7. RC Rascal*

      I have some personal experience with this. I was a senior manager with a 20 year old car. I took a lot of hazing for driving it. 20 year old car was a respected luxury brand, in good shape. I liked the car; it gave me no reasons to get rid of it, so I drove it. Plus, it was paid for. :)

      I had the oldest ride on the management team. It was one of the oldest ones in the company parking lot. For some reason, it bugged the hell out of a lot of people. Strangest thing ever.

      1. Ama*

        My pet theory is that people who criticize people who have older cars (or cell phones or TVs or whatever) feel insecure about their own spending habits and don’t really like being faced with evidence that what they chose to spend their money on was truly their choice and not something they *had* to have.

    8. anon24*

      Wut?

      When I was a teenager I worked for a car wash that had a small detailing service attached to it. One day a customer asked to have someone meet him there, drive him to work in his car, and then drive his car back to be detailed. Our detailer was unable to do it so they asked 17 or 18 year old me to come in early before my shift and do so.

      This guy had a car that was over 10 years old and over 180,000 miles on it. I also had an old car with about the same amount of miles on it and during the drive to his job at corporate of an insurance agency we cheerfully chatted about our cars and he told me how he could afford a new car but this one was paid off and new cars were such a waste of money.

      I dropped him off, drove his car back to work, and my boss asked me if I knew who he was. No.

      “That’s the CFO.”

    10. Close Bracket*

      In at will states, companies can fire you for wearing an ugly shirt. But yes, financial insecurity is a risk factor for fraud. It’s one of the things that can get a security clearance denied, in fact, if it is bad enough. Now, whether driving an old beater is an indicator of financial insecurity is another question. There are way better indicators.

      I used to drive a ’93, and I got some shit for it now and then. People don’t really understand why someone with a comfortable salary wouldn’t want to signal that.

    11. Jellicle Lovecraftian Horror Cat*

      Well, looks like the link is stuck in moderation. But I’m glad I wasn’t the only one who saw that and went “…wut.”

    12. AnotherAlison*

      Y’all work with some jerks. I have an ’08, but I think in engineering, an ancient vehicle is a source of pride. Cheapness is a good thing. We actually have 6 cars, though (older kids). My teenager rolled his last car after having a car for 2 months, and now my insurance is $540/mo. I could afford to buy a newer car outright, but I can’t afford to own a newer car!

      On the fraud issue, debt is a big risk for fraudulent behavior too, and many people with new cars have loans on them.

    13. The Doctor is In*

      Hubs drives a Lexus that is 12 years old with 130,000 miles on it. He thinks the new ones are ugly so has stuck with this. It is in impeccable condition so you can’t tell easily that it is that old. However, it’s like a 95 year old person who seems healthy…until they are not. We are hesitant to take it on long trips, so we take my 7 year old Lexus with 35,000 miles on it instead. We could have bought newer cars but why? No car payments for years and years.

    14. Mockingjay*

      I saw it. I figured it was made up, then I recalled the letters we see here…

      At any rate, that old Toyota will run for freaking forever. Unlike the current crop of overpriced vehicles, those older models don’t have the frequently failing electronic modules needing replacement and software which requires expensive updates. My husband swears by Toyota; he won’t buy anything else. The kids used to drive an old Corolla and no matter what they did to it (and they did a LOT), it still ran.

      I’d tell the company that my paid-off, well-maintained car is a sign of someone who is fiscally responsible and a far better risk than employees who buy the latest shiny model with no money down (“cause I got a DEAL”) at an exorbitant interest rate.

    15. PollyQ*

      If anything, it seems backwards. Many white-collar criminals start off because they’re trying to live beyond their means, e.g., driving a flashy new car.

      My car is a 19-yo Honda Civic that looks like it has the blight, but has relatively low milage and is utterly reliable. If I choose not to spend money getting something shiny & new, why should it be any sign of possible criminal activity?

    16. emmelemm*

      Timely, as I just replaced a 21 year old car with a new one. Driving that old thing (which ran beautifully and served me well) contributed *significantly* to my financial stability, because I didn’t have car payments.

      Maddening!!

    17. Chaordic One*

      At one place where I used to work, the management was kind of similar and they became worried that the employees’ “hoopties” parked in front of the building made the business look bad. The managing partners of the business drove a BMW 7-series (traded for a Mercedes-Benz S-Class), another BMW 7-series, a Jaguar XJ, a Cadillac Seville, and a Mercedes-Benz E-Class.

      Most of the employees would have liked nicer cars, but really couldn’t afford them and it sure wasn’t like the business paid us well enough to buy nice cars. TBH, it wasn’t just that the cars were old, but they also had some issues. There were a couple that had dented fenders and doors, the Camry dimples in the bumpers, the paint flaking off and the metal underneath starting to rust. There was a car of many colors that had body parts assembled from several different cars. It ended up that several employees were “ordered” to park their hoopties in back of the building where they would be less visible, instead of in front.

    18. Three owls in a trench coat*

      What in the ducking duck.

      I mean, I’ve seen this sort of thing first hand. Knew someone who earned a good paycheck but still insisted on driving a lemon. At least the outside looked okay even if it was unreliable.

      On the other hand, I’d love to know how this company would react to the time a bad hail storm tore through my area and I had to drive around with a car that looked like it was used for golf potshot practice for a few weeks until I could get it in the shop.

    19. Rebecca*

      I have a 20 year old Saturn, a retired fleet car from a phone company, and it has 74K miles on it now. Roll up windows, cassette tape, but it gets me back and forth to work with 34 mpg, costs less than $400 a year to insure, and no car payments. I make repairs as needed, and might put in what would equal 1-2 months of a basic car payment a year to drive it. It looks terrible, but I’m not going to buy a car, go into debt, and have payments so my coworkers or company can see me drive up in a new car. What matters is my job performance, and that I get there. That’s it.

  117. another scientist*

    question on CVs: typically, an academic CV lists everything (while a resume lists things relevant to the application). I like that my list of publications is nicely rounded with peer-reviewed articles, book chapters, a patent application and blog posts. The problem is that I was writing guest posts for a blog run by somebody else. That somebody else has moved on to other projects and it looks like the blog is no longer up.
    I can find the posts on archive.org but I wonder if I should not list them at all anymore. Thoughts?

    1. Oh No She Di'int*

      List them. Everyone knows how the internet works. Everyone is aware that sometimes content disappears. The work is still relevant even if it’s no longer accessible. If you painted a portrait and it tragically burned in a fire, you still painted the portrait.

      1. Ama*

        Yes, definitely list them — you can note that the blog is no longer active but that posts can be found on archive.org.

        However, if there are some posts you’d really like to save, see if you can save them in your own files as pdfs of the screenshots, that way if the archive.org posts ever disappear you can say that they are no longer live on the internet but you can provide copies if they’d like to see samples of your work.

  118. IT But I Can't Fix Your Printer*

    My partner’s very small employer is about to be acquired by a much bigger company. Partner has worked for a (different) big organization previously (and I work for a big organization) but has been with Tiny Family-Run Company for over 10 years. Overall this seems good – same pay, better benefits, WFH flexibility, plus the consistency and structure that come with a large company. Partner will get a new boss (old boss will phase into retirement), and New Boss seems nice upon brief interactions so far. Big Company is expanding into new geographic area with this acquisition so no indication that there will be layoffs. TFRC has generally been a great place to work and Partner likes his coworkers, commute, and job responsibilities, which are not expected to change significantly. So no major concerns, but if anyone has been through this before and has tips for how to adjust or anything to look out for, please share!

    1. WellRed*

      We were acquired by a much larger company about eight months ago. Same pay, mostly better benefits (they took away a couple paid holidays). We are all grandfathered in at our current levels and vacation accruals etc. The difference may be that they are located in another state and we operate almost as independently as before and as a separate unit. We definitely have a few more formal systems in place, like those for time tracking and for expense reports. Overall it’s been positive, but we’ll see what happens in another year or so.

    2. tangerineRose*

      It really varies. I’ve been through this kind of thing before. Once most of us were basically laid off, but the other times weren’t bad. Sometimes vacation/PTO stuff changed (rarely for the better), sometimes we had to take additional training classes, but a lot of times there weren’t many differences. I’d say pay attention, roll with the flow, but Partner might think about making sure his work reviews and anything else he really needs are stored at home and get the resume updated and make sure to link in with people on LinkedIn, just in case.

  119. Ruby314*

    How do you thank an interviewer you’ve been connected to via a staffing agency? I just had a second interview with the person who would be the grandboss for a temp-to-perm role. Normally I’d send a thank you email, but I never formally received their contact info, just a calendar invite of where/when to show up from the staffing agency account person. Obviously I know their name and could probably find their email online, but would that be overstepping or weird?

    1. Collette*

      You might try sending the thank you note to the staffing agency and asking them to forward it on. I’ve done that before.

  120. Entry-Level Marcus*

    Some good news, followed by a question.

    After 5 and a half months of unemployment, I’ve finally landed a job! It’s full-time, permanent (my first permanent position), has great benefits, pays 25% more than my last position, the work looks interesting, and I believe in the organization’s mission! After 2 and half years of internships, temp jobs, and unemployment, it’s such a relief. Alison’s advice on resumes, cover letters, and interviewing has been invaluable, and following it significantly improved my resume and cover letters.

    Now, on to my question. I’m wondering if people have general tips or advice on socializing with new coworkers and socially integrating into a new office. I’m very introverted and also a bit on the autism spectrum, so this is something I’ve struggled with in the past. In previous positions, I’ve generally kept my head down, did my work, and mostly only interacted with my manager and people I was directly working with on a project. I think this worked out okay because I was an intern or temp, but I’m planning on being in my next position for 2-3 years at least, and so I want to be better about talking to people and getting to know people in the office beyond my immediate supervisor.

    I don’t expect to buddies with coworkers, necessarily, but I do want people in the office to view me as friendly and approachable. In previous positions, I feel like I missed out on opportunities because I mostly just hunkered down in my cube all day. Also, it just made for more socially awkward moments at work than I’d have liked.

    1. IT But I Can't Fix Your Printer*

      Something I (fellow introvert) found really helpful from Susan Cain’s book ‘Quiet’ was the idea of making a deal with yourself about socialization beforehand. Like “today I will say hi to 2 people in the kitchen and then I don’t have to say hi to anyone for the rest of the day” or “today I will learn 2 facts about Jane who sits in the next row and I don’t have to talk to Bob until tomorrow” or “I will go to one networking/professional development event per month for my first 6 months here”. It find it much more manageable when I can break things down into steps to check off, and one you’ve sort of build up a baseline then you can (hopefully) be more natural in time.

    2. WellRed*

      Start with a smile and a hello (I realize this may be easier said then done for you). Don’t be the person who walks by, doesn’t make eye contact and doesn’t say hello or good morning. If people ask how your weekend was, keep it short and friendly: great, I went to the movies. How was yours?

    3. Nicki Name*

      Congratulations on the new job!

      If there are any food or drink-related regular gatherings during work hours, see if you can be there for them. For instance, at one of my past jobs, a bunch of my co-workers would have a synchronized coffee break around 9:30 in the morning with some chatting. At another, most of my team would go get lunch somewhere cheap every Friday (not reimbursed by the company).

      If there’s something like the coffee gathering, you can just show up; if there’s something like a regular lunch trip, you should ask first if they mind you joining them. Either way, it can help build social connections even if you’re just present and don’t interact much.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      Geeky geek here, and I mostly just say hi, chat about a few neutral topics, and leave a 4′ tall Minion costume in my seat over Halloween. If anyone wants to talk to me after that, cool! But mostly I socialize outside of work.

    5. Auntie Social*

      Bring a picture of your dog for your desk. Ask if someone had a good weekend. Bring brownies. Have a candy jar at your desk—people will stop and say hi while they root around the dish looking for the Snickers.

  121. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Suggestions for getting a ‘gatekeeper’ department to inform us promptly when they get their external signoff? All too often we lose a week or more because no one told us we could start wrapping up our portion.

    1. Jaid*

      Who’s paying for that time? Can you charge time against their budget? That might make the folks in charge say something.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Budgeting & billing is invisible to my group, so that wouldn’t work. (Now you know IANAL.)
        They do care about time to market, though, so I used that in the email. I included the people who forget to tell us, and the people whose bonuses depend on getting product released…and I used our staffing issue as reason for us needing their help. (Instead of their lack of help being a contributory factor to why people have left….ahem.) I
        consciously used some project manager jargon I haven’t had reason to use since my previous job and strong verbs: we NEED clear immediate notification of approvals, adjusted deadlines, changes in project scope, etc. , so we don’t lose time on task. And I thought of Alison’s “get buy-in” tip, and asked them to spread the word to other teams. Buttering them up a bit? Yup, and totally worth it to try and smooth out my group’s workflow.

    2. Samwise*

      I’d just call them every day or two and ask. That’s easier and more reliable than trying to get them to change.

  122. Grumble Grumble*

    I was supposed to have a phone interview this morning, but a couple hours before I got an email from the interviewer informing me that the pay range is $20k lower than what I was asking for. UGHHH come on people just post the damn salary range! Save us all some hassle.
    Also, the reason given is that I would be “entry level” when I have ten years of relevant experience. FFS.

    1. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

      The same thing happened to me recently. After I got the job offer, they told me it was entry level and offered me the bottom of the posted salary range since I’d be coming on as entry level–even though I have seven years of experience, all the qualifications listed in the job posting, and the job posting said the successful candidate could be hired as an entry-level book jockey or as an associate book jockey, and also had the salary range for associate book jockey posted.

      Like, if you aren’t willing to give someone with seven years of experience and all the skills you’re looking for the title and salary of associate book jockey, why even post it in the ad?!

      1. Grumble Grumble*

        This was through a linkedin posting and they had an “estimated salary range” that was wider than the base salary. It really twists me up… ten years ago when I had my first job out of college, I started out earning only $5k less than what this was going to pay. These companies apparently dgaf how people will pay their bills.

  123. Joie*

    So we had a massive restructuring on Monday. We let go 12 of 17 people. I was one of 5 and the only non director to keep my job.

    Firstly, this entire situation is an emotional dumpster fire.

    Second – I was in the process of restructuring my salary as I am not doing the job I was hired for but am doing work at a much higher level for the same entry level salary. I’m not sure how or if to follow up on that. Do I leave it, do I push to have some structure around the future on it? I’ve also worked for many a person that does the “work hard for me now and we will reward you later” to get either burned or insulted by them so I’m really hesitant to go around this merry-go-round again. I felt before this happened I was significantly underpaid and now I just feel like they are taking advantage.

    For context- the salary was I was hired basically as a general database admin but due to my work history I had been and am now currently doing high level operations and accounting. So obviously there’s a huge disconnect between the salary for those two roles.

    1. Rebecca*

      I think it’s time to brush off your resume and start looking. 12 of 17 people is not insignificant, and I’m so sorry. I was part of a company who was purchase by another company and they gutted over 80% of the workforce, and was one of the “lucky” ones left…and it didn’t feel like that then. I may be wrong, but asking for a raise now may be met with “you’re lucky to have a job” and with 12 people gone, the workload will be unmanageable. Yikes, dumpster fire indeed.

      I’d ask about the restructuring, job classification, etc. and if they push back, offer excuses, dangle that carrot, my gut would tell me to start looking elsewhere.

      1. Joie*

        You are probably right on that. And bang on with that feeling, it’s rough being the ‘left over’.

        They’re very open about a lot but I’m finding they’re surprisingly unconcerned on the actual restructuring of roles and job classifications. After my lunch time meeting I’m also wondering if they even accounted for raises or anything for the massive workloads the rest of us are stuck with. I did redo my resume on Monday when the lay offs happened and have been checking and applying for right fit jobs as the weeks gone on because if it turns out my office is full of bees I don’t want to be in a panic.

    2. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      Definitely brush up the resume and work on your exit strategy. There’s a solid chance they only kept you on because they were significantly underpaying you to begin with, and as the only non-Director not to get the ax, I can only imagine how much grunt work is about to come your way. See what you can do about increasing your salary while you’re still there, but in the meantime, work on getting out.

    3. StellaBella*

      Bruch up your resume, start looking, use your holiday time, do not work 12hr days to save the place. In 2015 a team of 15 I was on was reduced to 5 in a non profit. In 2016 we could not make payroll for one month. I. took on 2 other jobs in end of ’15 and burned out in 2017. Don’t do this.

    4. Kathenus*

      I’d push on restructuring the salary now. You have some leverage, I’d think, as a remaining person. And if it’s done professionally you have very little to lose by trying to get a fair salary now. To get more money while you look for another job, or if you end up happy in the reorganization and decide to stay. I’ve been on both sides in layoffs, and I think sometimes those who stay can be in a worse place than those who don’t (this refers to situations where those who are laid off find other jobs in a relatively reasonable timeframe, I understand that that doesn’t always happen).

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      At the very least get your title increased with paperwork for a raise in X months so you can put the promotion on your resume. And maybe extra PTO to prevent burnout.
      On a survival level, get someone to determine now what projects were axed along with staff, because you physically cannot do the work of 12.

    6. andy*

      “work hard for me now and we will reward you later” never works. The later reward never happens.

      It is possible that you are the one who stayed, because you are paid below market and thus good bargain. Insist at least on aligning title with actual responsibilities. So that you can use it in CV for another job. Lastly, brace yourself for a lot of ugly political infighting over power, competences and literally everything among remaining people.

      1. Joie*

        oh that’s already begun. I’ve consciously made a decision to let them fight it out over power struggles. Not my circus, not my monkeys.
        I have no interest in being the biggest fish in this tiny pond, I’ll save my capital for when things are coming to me that shouldn’t be coming to me.

  124. WineNot*

    My boss has been out all week, and it’s the most fun, busy, relaxing week I’ve had at work in a while. Whenever she is out for an extended period of time, it is always shocking how LITTLE she actually does on a daily basis, yet somehow she fills her time (probably by typing at a snail’s pace and flirting with everyone) and sometimes even comes in on weekends. Like what could she possibly still have to finish?!? It’s weeks like these that make me wish I had both of our workloads to handle all the time. That’s all, just appreciating my job right now, loving the quiet when my boss is out, and looking forward to the weekend!

  125. DapperDev*

    Does anyone who struggles with social anxiety and depression have tips on bouncing back and being friendly after a stint of silence? I’ve been in my new role for 8 months , and spent the first 6 extremely depressed because of my previous toxic job. As a result I was totally silent unless talking about work. I even struggled to maintain hygiene, embarrassed to say. Now things are on the up and up at my job and I’ve gotten better at moving forward from the previous job. It’s just hard because I’m now known, likely, as a Very Quiet Person. How do I challenge myself to chat more with my office neighbors, who kind of intimidate me? They are more experienced than I am and we don’t have alot in common, sadly

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      A someone with both social anxiety and depression, here’s what has helped me. I set a goal to speak with one colleague about one non-work related thing once a day. I try to stick with harmless things, like plans for the weekend or how did the evening go. Things like that.

      Here’s the questions I use (and yes, I did write these down in my planner as a reference sheet when I was feeling especially nervous): Have any fun plans for the weekend? Did you have a good evening? Have you seen any movies lately? When did you start doing X?

      If you notice someone knitting on their breaks or reading, ask about it. It’s hard (God, I know its hard), but you can do this. Just little steps. And if there’s a coworker who is regularly been friendly, saying Good Morning, asking how you are, than start with them.

      1. tangerineRose*

        I’ve found that people like talking about their pets, if you need a subject to try to talk about.

        1. valentine*

          Yes to pets. Especially dog people. Anyone who fosters will have new material.

          Start by saying hello and smiling a little when you’re up and add a line when you’re in a common space like the kitchen.

  126. AnotherLibrarian*

    What are some of the successful techniques you’ve found to try to find a compromise with a colleague who is overly protective of their work products? I have a colleague who is deeply protective of her work and won’t give anyone else access to the servers where it is stored. This is causing real issues, but I don’t manage her. I want to tread softly, so any advice would be gratefully appreciated.

    I have documented the issues, but when I bring them up with her, she insists that they are “minor annoyances” and insists no one else has never had a problem with going through her to access anything.

    1. Faith the Twilight Slayer*

      Do you need to see her information in order to get your tasks completed? Problem solved! Speak with your manager. Explain that you need access to DO YOUR JOB and that currently you can’t get that. At that point, they have 2 options: Either give you access, or they tell you to go through co-worker. If you have to go through co-worker, every single time you need access, send an email saying “I need xxx info and cannot access it. Please make this available so that I can accomplish task yyy”. Copy your supervisor so that they know you are doing what they asked. If there’s a delay getting the info you need, be sure to forward the original email to the co-worker, include your supervisor, and say “I am still waiting for the info, I need it by xxx day in order to finish this task”. This gives you a chance to have everything on record that YOU are not the holdup, and lets your supervisor know how much (or not) this is impacting your work, by how many emails they see asking for information, and how many times you have to follow up. Good luck!

        1. valentine*

          She never takes time off? People needlessly wait? What if she leaves one day and doesn’t return?

  127. egomylego*

    I am supposed to go on a work trip to China March 9-29th. Traveling throughout China (about 8 different cities). With the outbreak of the coronavirus, this is a bit stressful…The trip is already paid for, I am not going along, there are about 15 other folks from different organizations going too. Neither of my bosses have said anything about the virus (not surprised), but I have received many questions from shocked friends and family along the lines of, “are they still making you go??” which has been stressing me out. It is not really up to me whether I go or not, the trip has already been paid for (roughly $13,000 ish).

    Not sure what to do here, if anything? The trip is managed by a travel agency (with insurance and medical support of course) and they sent us an update regarding the virus ( that they are monitoring it, along with world health organization updates etc). They are a fantastic travel agency and I have complete faith in them (traveled with them previously internationally and they were able to last-minute move our travel details so we avoided flying into Hong Kong the day a tsunami was supposed to hit). Different than a viral outbreak, but still. I think I will just mention it to my bosses and keep watching the news and touch base with my bosses if the outbreak gets better / worse as it gets closer to the trip…? Commenters – What would you do if this was you?

    1. WellRed*

      I’d find out if people are even allowed to travel to China, at least to those cities that are under quarantine. If you are, will you be allowed to travel out again?

    2. eshrai*

      What cities are you traveling to? There is a travel ban in place around where the virus originated. I would reach out to your bosses directly with concern about the virus and possible quarantine issues with returning to the US. Maybe the trip can be postponed until the virus has run its course? The news indicated they expect it to last months. It really depends on what part of China you are traveling to though.

    3. WineNot*

      You definitely SHOULD be able to make the decision whether you go or not. It’s not like you’re skeptical because you just don’t WANT to. It’s a world health crisis in the early stages. So many places are literally in shut-down mode and doing everything they can to prevent people from not coming to or leaving. Of course, hopefully, it will be a little more under control and less scary in another month and a half. But if it were today or a month from now, there’s no way I’m getting on that plane. No matter how much you trust the travel agency, they can’t prevent you from getting the virus…

    4. StellaBella*

      Please don’t bother with news, but do check the WHO guidelines in about 3 weeks, and the CDC guidelines too on their two websites and also check the USA State Dept travel advisory site for travel to China. I would also check in with the travel agency too. This outbreak is likely to get bigger, and affect more cities.

    6. KoiFeeder*

      If I recall correctly, the Wuhan Coronavirus is a fascinating combination of bat and rabbit coronaviruses (or potentially a ferret coronavirus rather than a rabbit one) which went zoonotic. Neither the bat nor the rabbit virus had known treatments prior to the species jump. However, it’s a respiratory virus, so wearing a medical mask, not eating in public, and washing your hands often and especially before touching your face/mouth are all steps you can take to minimize risk.

      Of course, you really should be allowed to not go, and I can’t believe you’re being asked to travel to a quarantined area. That’s absurd.

    7. Kathenus*

      Agree with everyone else to really research this, keep up on changes, check the CDC website and State Department ones for travel updates and don’t solely go by the travel agency updates. If you go, bring face masks. You can either get the ear loop face mask/dust mask style or consider an N95 style (but without a fit test you can’t be guaranteed that these will fully protect you, so see if you can find someone to do a fit test to make sure you get the right product) – wear these all the time you are in public. Bring latex gloves to use in public areas as needed and definitely hand sanitizer and use it liberally.

    8. Anono-me*

      I would suggest you look into getting medical grade, durable, reusable, fitted face mask.

      You might also want to bring along a lot of latex gloves and disposable medical grade face masks. I’m hearing that there shortages in some areas.

      Please be sure to get medical grade face masks that will protect against viruses, and not cheap dust masks from the hardware store. ( Hardware store desk masks are good if you’re sanding or doing some other dusty project, but they are not intended for nor will they work as medical equipment.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If your agency is that good, you have travel insurance so the company could reschedule.
      So I would mention it, as a question about what prep you should do given that the CDC has already recommended avoiding nonessential travel to the province, and doctors are worried it will spread rapidly.

  128. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

    I touched on this in my comment on the job hunting mortification post from yesterday, but I want to frame it as a question. Let’s say you applied for a job at a company, and you did have contact with the company about that job, but you didn’t get the job. (Contact = email with someone, phone screen, video or in-person interview.) Some time later, another job that might be a fit for you opens up at the company. Should you/do you apply? (Assume that your experience and qualifications have not significantly changed.)
    I would be very hesitant to do it unless someone at the company specifically reached out to me about the position. Otherwise, I feel like I had my one shot, it didn’t work out, and that’s that – the door is closed.

    This stems from an experience I had where an agency sent me to interview at a company for one position, which I didn’t get but the interviewer had good feedback about me. Some months later, they sent me back to interview for a different position, and the second person I was to talk to that day turned out to be my interviewer from the first position, who came in, seemed very annoyed to see me, and said “Oh, if I realized it was you, I would have told the agency not to bother sending you back here.” Interview over.
    Am I being stupid and overthinking/overreacting to this one experience, or is this the norm?

    1. merp*

      That was a really rude response of them! And honestly, they should probably have half an idea of who they’re interviewing. If they were going to have that strong of a reaction, warranted or not, you’d think they could have bothered to remember your name.

      To the larger question – I’ve definitely applied to different positions at the same places if I felt like the interview went reasonably well. You never know who else is in the pool, and just because someone else was stronger for the previous position, that means nothing for the new position.

    2. WellRed*

      The interviewer was very rude. however, in the future, if the agency does this again, I’d ask first: “I actually already interviewed there for X role, back in June. Is this for a different position?” Or something like that.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        If there’s a new posting you’re qualified for, go for it. But make a judgement call–if it’s the same job reposted for the same small company (or same department in large company), I would wait months.
        But dang, I hope Alison spots this post because now I want to be prepared with something to say if I get something that vile.

    3. Angelique*

      You’re overthinking it. One bad experience doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do this ever. If you are qualified and interested, apply! They don’t have to interview unless they think you’d be a good fit, and if they liked you enough to interview you previously you might well be just what they’re looking for.

    4. PollyQ*

      The fact that you weren’t hired for the first job doesn’t necessarily mean you were unqualified, or that they’d never hire you for anything. It just means they hired someone they liked better. I say apply for the new one, and try to push that awful rude interviewer out of your mind.

    5. Samwise*

      Nah, keep applying. Our current grand boss applied five times for our entry level positions before being hired. And now she’s a big deal!

  129. Free Meercats*

    The Neverending Project rolls on. Between now and February 21, I have 2 days off. Admittedly, the weekends and holiday are only 3 hours, but there’s still the commute. BUT, once the lab data from this round comes back, the next round of sampling should have us finding the source of the pollutant discharge. If not exactly whom, we’ll at least have it down to a couple of blocks.

    Then later this year, we’ll probably start the whole effort over again for a different, much harder to sample for, pollutant.

    1. Brownie*

      Oh man, flashbacks to my stint in environmental work where a very large city decided that the best way to do sediment contaminate sampling to narrow down where a pollutant was coming from was to send their vactor trucks out to suck up sediments from the storm drains. No, the trucks weren’t sanitized/properly cleaned before each sample and they weren’t given a sampling plan (even something simple like “go upstream” wasn’t used), so it ended up being a right mess of data. I left several months later and at that point they still weren’t able to figure out where the pollutant was coming from because the data was worthless and no one would authorize a proper sampling project. Discharge pollutants are HARD at the best of times, good luck on yours!

      1. Free Meercats*

        This is my project and I’ve been very systematic in my approach. I burned a bit of capital to be allowed to use this approach instead of scattershot sampling, but the folks on Mahogany Row have seen the light in how we’re doing it. That’s because we’ve been able to show results and keep the cost reasonable. I’d like it to move faster, but we’re at the saturation point for our instrument for measuring metals, not to mention the analyst.

        The area it’s coming from is where the majority of our industrial users are, both regulated and unregulated. We know it’s not any of the regulated discharges, we’ve been analyzing for this metal for decades; but it could be in the unregulated flow from one of our regulated users. I know who I’m hoping it is, because I know their environmental staff will take care of it after one phone call.

        Your situation sounds like it was a nightmare run by Cletus in maintenance, not someone who knew what he was doing.

        1. Brownie*

          I learned so many lessons about How Not To Do Things at that place. Which was sad since I loved the actual job idea, figuring out what’s coming from who and in what quantities is like a giant fantastic puzzle for me. Bonus points if it’s making it into the aquifer, that’s 3D chemistry, geology, physics, and who-dunnit all rolled into one!

          Why would your company think scattershot sampling would produce better results than systematic sampling? The latter is the right way to (quickly) track a specific discharge. Scattershot only works when trying to get a general overall picture of an area, it’s not meant for actually tracking. Sure, might be able to use that data to find the source, but it’ll take far more time and money than your way. Very glad to hear you were able to convince them to do things right and that it’s paying off!

  130. eshrai*

    I started a new job this week – same agency, new location and position. I’m moving from technical training to soft skills training. I’m trying to be excited about the move but I really loved my old job. I really really love technical training and building my technical skills. I mostly took this job for the commute (newly single mom, so daycare issues) and to get away from an extremely toxic co-worker who was ruining the whole group environment and ruining our teams professional reputation. And honestly, I was getting bored teaching the same intro level courses after 3 1/2 years.

    I have also started taking programming classes to maybe transition into a new career in a couple years. Anyone here who has made that type of career transition, how did it work out for you? Do you have any tips for staying on track while working full time/raising kids? I’m super nervous about my time management skills and my energy for staying on track with classes.

    1. Windchime*

      I made this transition about 20 years ago. I won’t lie; it was kind of rough. I was divorced, raising two school-aged kids and working full time. I would often leave for work at 6 AM and get home after 5. Sometimes I had evening classes. I was lucky to live in the same town as my parents and my ex, so they could help with getting the kids off to school. I also had a super-flexible boss who let me punch in and out all during the day so I could run up the road to the community college (luckily it was about 5 minutes away from the office).

      I had a couple of years where I felt like I never slept and it was kind of stressful, but I managed to finish and then got a job as an entry-level programmer. I’m really glad I did it; my income now is a lot higher than it would have been if I’d stuck with my hourly office job. Good luck!

  131. Jessen*

    So I mentioned like 2 weeks back in a weekend thread that my apartment had burnt down.

    My coworkers got me a $350 target gift card to help out. And I’ve basically been either off or working remote for the last 2 weeks. Management pretty much just told me to do what I needed to and they’d figure out how to make sure the job got done.

    I know the latter bit’s kind of basic decency, but also most of my previous jobs (customer service) would have given me maybe a day or two and that’s it.

    1. WellRed*

      I’m sure you know this, but make sure you thank them and, as comfortable as you feel, give them a short update when you have one.

      1. Jessen*

        I’m considering thank you cookies.

        I’ll update everyone monday and send a good thank you email definitely. Probably mention how useful the card was for all those little expenses. It’s amazing how things add up when you need them all at once – trash cans and tank tops and olive oil and whatever else.

  132. Killer Queen*

    I posted two Fridays ago about getting a second round interview… this week has been amazing. Yesterday I got an email inviting me to a first round interview for a position I applied to recently; my boss brought up the possibility of a promotion that she keeps having no news on (for almost a year now)… and this morning, I was offered the promotion AND the people from the second-round interview asked to talk later today. I have never had options like this before. I already know where my gut is, luckily. Hopefully I can share my good vibes with the other job seekers! Anyone else contemplating multiple options right now?

  133. Argye*

    I have verbally accepted an offer for a new job. There are details to be worked out, and I have a call with the new boss this afternoon to discuss them (i.e., start date, relocation expenses, etc.). I don’t anticipate discovering anything new that would prevent me from taking this job. They seem to really want me, which is a nice feeling!

    The problem is that I have been invited for another interview mid-February. I just got an email with a detailed agenda. However, I haven’t done a thing about flights, hotel, car, etc. because I know about my current offer. It is typical in academia for me to make the arrangements and then get reimbursed. At what point should I tell them to take me off their list?

    Likewise, I just got a request for my teaching preferences in the fall where I am now. At what point should I tell them that I’m not going to be here, and they need to find other coverage for those classes?

    I originally decided to wait until I had a signed contract, but the process is taking longer than I thought, for no reason other than that the Dean is extremely busy. Should I go ahead and tell everyone now? Wait for the conversation this afternoon? Wait for a signed contract?

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        This! You don’t have an offer until it’s written and signed (and even then…)

  134. The Duke of Nothington*

    Yesterday’s question about job searching when you could be moving in the near future made me think of a question students often ask me. Frequently students will want to look for a FT job for after graduation but plan on going to grad school after a year or so of work. Obviously if they’ve already been accepted to start grad school in the fall I tell them that they need to be up front about that. However, if a student has plans to go to grad school but hasn’t started applying yet, should they mention that in job interviews? A lot could change – they could not get in to grad school, love their job and decide not to continue their schooling, etc., so it’s not a given that they would be leaving, just like it’s not a given that I’ll be in my job a year from now.

    1. Veronica Mars*

      I think they’re ok not to share. New grads often don’t stay in their new jobs a long time because they don’t really know what they want. And part of not knowing what they want, is “maybe I want to go back to grad school.” A lot of students get their first job and never want to go back. Others get paid by their company to go back to grad school part time, a win-win. And some leave for other jobs, or more education.

      The exception to this would be if the company emphasizes that they are looking for a long-term commitment. I mean, I know you’re not REQUIRED to stay or anything. But I knew I was looking to relocate soon after graduation, and one (small startup) company said they were looking to groom someone to be a lifelong team member, and I just didn’t feel right misleading them or taking the place of someone who truly wanted that opportunity.

    2. Friyay*

      I do some career advising w/ students (in addition to many other student service-y things) and recently we had an employer panel with maybe 6 companies represented and asked them all this very question. It was mostly HR reps from various biotech-type places, and it comes up a lot in the program I work for because many students are interested in health profession schools but take a gap year or two. The general consensus was that if they aren’t already accepted somewhere, they don’t need to bring it up, because as you noted, things change. They may not get in, they may really like it! One HR rep said she had many students think they’d go to grad school/med school/whatever and then ended up working for their company for years, so it’s really hard to predict.

      Some of my students are very anxious about this “omission” so we also talk about applying to opportunities that are short term by design – Americorps, Teach for America, NIH research post-baccs, etc.

  135. Hello It's Me*

    I’m 31 years old. I’m in an admin role and I’ve been doing this work for a couple of years now.

    It’s really really hard to… “pretend” to only be an admin. And of course it can be really good work and some people love it for their careers.

    But I started off my career as a financial analyst and then I was an operations manager.

    I know the question is: why don’t you do that now? And the answer is — because of a lot of **** that went down that was out of my control. I had to move almost every other month for FREAK reasons. I’ve just been knocked down and knocked down and knocked down that getting an admin job was the fastest way to start working and making SOME money.

    Except I have to repress myself so so so much. It’s warped my vision of what a normal workplace environment is because of what I’ve had to put up with. I just try to stay as quiet as possible and not speak up. I apologize for everything, even if it’s not my fault. It’s like, I have to have this entire demeanor of someone who’s “just an admin” because when I first started and was Proactive and Smart and Outspoken… it raised red flags. My bosses seemed to feel threatened by me.

    1. adminning*

      If it makes you feel any better, I’m in a similar position… Like, do you really want to hear how my life went down the tubes really fast, and just getting out of a bad situation was a huge accomplishment?

      Sometimes it’s easier to just keep your mouth shut in the interest of self-preservation. So, ultimately, think about what’s best for you and maybe find your own path through or around it?

      1. valentine*

        when I first started and was Proactive and Smart and Outspoken… it raised red flags.
        This is a bizarre and sexist attitude that’s warping yours. You’ve no need to play the game? Why not look for other work and see what’s out there?

        Admins are the brain and beating heart of a good business.

    2. Nessun*

      There’s no “just an admin”. There’s just – admin. Please don’t devalue the work of admins. If it’s not what you want to do, then consider your options – interview where possible, put your hand up for other opportunities, and keep doing good work to show value to your employer. If you have to stay there, then learn to find value in what you do, and don’t think of yourself as “just an admin”. You’re a person, who is doing admin work, and who has other skills that you’re not currently utilizing. Your reasons for that are your own – there’s nothing wrong with choosing work that doesn’t use them all.

      And I’m sorry your boss is threatened by you. People should want to be surrounded by other smart people! Hopefully you can find an opportunity to shine with the skills you have and enjoy.

      1. Hello It's Me*

        Well that’s what I mean. It’s not the work itself that’s… I mean the work itself is fine!

        I feel like from a personality standpoint I have to put myself down all the time to “fit the role”. That’s what I’m talking about really. Other people have a view of what an admin is like and I have to be like that to not raise red flags. Submissive, subservient, quiet, naive.

        1. WellRed*

          Look I get what you’re saying. But this: “Submissive, subservient, quiet, naive”

          Is this really your view of admins? It’s not true, nor should it be true. Are you a friendly, outgoing person? A problem solver? Super organized? You can still be those things. You do have to “read the room” or at least the office environment, as it were. Are you landing at the wrong companies, culture wise? I mean, yeah, you may be low on the totem (that’s a hard place to be when you were higher up), but that doesn’t mean you are a nobody. Also, you say it’s been a few years. Are you able to start safely aiming a little higher?

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            I think Hello is saying that this is the view she hears from the people she works with, and that when she tries to be a problem solver / aim higher, she gets negative feedback.

            1. Hello It's Me*

              Yes. I got fired for basically *this* and have gotten a lot more mileage out of “reading the room” and realizing I needed to shrink myself…

              I’ve been taking a lot of temp jobs so I’ve had like 5 jobs in the past couple years and it’s been like this everywhere.

              1. Nessun*

                That’s very unfortunate. The best admins I know are the ones who are collaborating with their team, true colleagues who provide a specific perspective and values skills. If you can, I’d look for ways to show that value, help your coworkers to realize that an admin perspective is a valuable one, and there are ways an admin can improve the workflow and efficiency of an office that others don’t even realize. It’s a slow process, proving you’re doing something of value…sometimes people only realize how valuable you are when things don’t get done!

                But try to feel value in your own work, and look for small opportunities to show you’re helping (“I’m so glad I could do X for you, I know it saved Y manhours to have an admin process in place”, “could you imagine if you all had to book Z yourselves? Happy to know I could take that task on, to give you time to focus on ABC”). It’s a long slow fight sometimes, but don’t give up. You’re in a negative headspace, and your coworkers dismissive attitude is adding fuel to the fire. Don’t allow yourself to think “just an admin” – they don’t define your value. You do.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I was in your position a few years ago. I went from essentially ops management/financial controller hybrid after stepping in for ownership who did the ops side of things, to being an executive assistant to give myself some breathing room and it was easier to pin down because honestly, there’s more openings a lot of times for an assistant spot.

      But the thing is, that EA spot grew and grew because of the setup that I joined and my boss wasn’t weird, so he was happy to throw more and more power my way, I was #3 from the beginning but became much stronger in that role by the end of my time there. You can still get out of that specific place if possible to go somewhere that has more room to grow.

      Right now you should focus on brushing yourself off and then looking for your next step. You aren’t stuck there. You aren’t going to be in that lower position forever. That’s just a cool down spot.

      Also find somewhere that doesn’t treat their admins like that. Find one of the places that treats the assistants like royalty. Even when I was an accounting clerk, the owner adored me and was gushing about my work. So I don’t understand these places that tell you to “know your role” and “just an admin.” they’ve clearly never had an admin that won’t take their garbage and leave them in the dust where they belong. You’re only as replaceable as your bosses want to view you as and there’s a heck of a lot of bosses out there that will kiss your feet and throw money at you.

      1. Joie*

        Just want to second the treatment thing. Seriously, admins are usually the glue of the organization. Don’t stay at employer who thinks admins are not valuable to the company because most of the time, the machine won’t run without them.

        Maybe your boss thinks this is the 1950’s with secretaries, but they underestimated the value then too and apparently haven’t stopped.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Even in the 1950s, often times secretaries were the ones with a lot of power.

          Don’t sh*t where you sleep comes to mind. Your admin staff tends to get around, they tend to see a lot of things. They tend to hear a lot of things.Along with doing a lot of work that others simply cannot handle for various reasons, despite their higher standing positions. I’ve dealt with a lot of people who seriously crumble at the sight of just a form, lol.

          This isn’t the time of indentured servitude and where you can just go buy someone’s fare to the new world and then run them into the ground and degrade, etc.

        2. snoopythedog*

          I really wish more people felt this way/saw the admin job this way. They keep the place running and are so undervalued. And when they are toxic, they can taint the whole workplace, in part because they do have a lot of power and influence.

  137. Not an Exhibit at the Petting Zoo*

    Is it okay to ask to be nominated for one of your department’s awards? If so, how do you do it?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Not an award, but when a leadership training program was announced at my org that required a nomination from one’s boss and approval from their boss, I just told my boss, “I’d be really interested in the teapot leadership program, if that’s something that you and Clementine would be willing to consider nominating me for.” For an award, I’d be prepared to explain what I’d done recently to justify my nomination as well; in my case my boss has been shoving all manner of leadership opportunities at me for two years so I didn’t bother buttering it up too much :)

  138. Anon4This*

    I got what feels kind of like gender-based feedback at my annual performance evaluation yesterday, and I’m trying to decide if I should be annoyed by it or not. For context, my supervisor (55-ish, male) has two female direct reports, me (30) included, and ~10 male reports. I routinely get great feedback on my work, and I’m getting a promotion and possibly my own direct report before long. We work in state government, where no one is ever fired or disciplined or even given clear negative feedback, really.

    After we talked about my actual job duties, he gave me a whole speech about how I don’t talk to him enough – not about work stuff, but about “regular stuff,” which I’m assuming means small talk. Here’s the thing, though – I’m really not out-of-step with the rest of his direct reports! They might be slightly more apt to go talk to him in-person about a work issue, but he’s made it clear that he prefers email (and if you ask him a question in-person, he tends to give half-answers that he will sometimes contradict later, so I prefer email too!). They might be slightly more gregarious if they see him in the hallway or kitchen (a lot of the men in my office do this annoying thing where they yell HOWWWYOUUUDOOIN at each other), but I’m always friendly and I’ll ask how he is, etc. I go to most of our after-work events and have a nice circle of work friends both within and outside of my department, so it’s not like I’m some kind of sociopath.

    I’m also annoyed because it’s not like he makes any effort. He generally avoids eye contact when walking by my desk. We literally never have 1-on-1s, where it would make sense to start with a bit of chitchat. We will chat a bit at work events, but he doesn’t have great social skills, so he’ll monologue or do things like ask what it’s like to turn 30 ~as a woman~ or tell me to tell my boyfriend to try a particular kind of beer (because obviously only men drink beer).

    His other female direct report is a huge people-pleaser and also has more in common with him, so they definitely have a warmer relationship, but I still can’t help but feel like I wouldn’t be getting that kind of feedback if I were a guy. Some of them get away with doing NO work whatsoever, so it feels a little rich to get my hand slapped for not making enough small talk.

    I’m sure I’m overthinking this, but it just made me feel bad. There are some other issues with mild sexism at our agency and in my field in general, so it just feels like one more attack – be great at your job, but also make sure the men feel warm and fuzzy, even though they don’t care how you feel! (I mean, my supervisor’s work BFF was telling him dick jokes in front of me this week at a work event, so like, I’m just not super jazzed about trying to be buddies.)

    1. Dee*

      Not here to give advice but just to validate you and let you know I don’t think you’re overthinking this! It feels gendered in a possibly unintentional on his part but still harmful way.

      1. valentine*

        You’re not overthinking it and it’s intentional because he told you you’re not paying enough attention to him, which would necessitate you chasing him down just to talk about personal stuff or to hear his sexist comments. Gross all round. I’d be tempted to start yelling “How you doin’?” and, if asked, act surprised that’s not what he meant.

    2. IT But I Can't Fix Your Printer*

      Ugh, that’s gross. I wonder if you can ask him (under the guise of ‘of course I want to take your valuable feedback’) to suggest a few colleagues who he thinks would be great role models in this regard – this probably won’t accomplish anything (and you shouldn’t have to change) but maybe if the only person he can come up with is your people-pleasing female coworker, he’ll get a clue that he’s being unreasonable??

  139. Veronica Mars*

    Thoughts on changing jobs after only 5 months, if it turns out to be not what you signed up for? The catch: It would be for an internal move.

    In August, I took a job in the Old Spell Archival division. What I was actually interested in, and what the job was sold as, was Revamping Old Spells. Well, in October, a new division titled Revamping Old Spells was founded. And all of a sudden, all of the fun spell improvement work moved to them. So now, I’m stuck doing Old Spell Archival, and I loathe it. It is in no way tied to my interests or natural abilities. Why did your division not merge with the new Revamping Old Spells division, you ask? Because the head of the new division does not like the head of my division, at all. And actually, I tend to side with my division. The Revamping Old Spells division does a lot of things that we find hugely questionable, and we have major philosophical differences on our preferred method of Spell Revamping.

    This month, a job opened up in my old department, Spell Testing. A job that I would love, and would do much more to further my career than Old Spell Documentation (although not as much as Revamping Old Spells). My old boss said the job was mine if I wanted it. But to do that, I’d have to seriously burn a bridge in my new department. They basically just finally finished training me, and now they’d have to backfill me right away. I’m sure I could wait it out another 7 months here, and then go back to my old department, but it just feels like such a waste of my time…

    1. WellRed*

      Eh, you don’t owe the new department anything, the scope of your work changed. To me, it almost seems less egregious because it would be your old department you are moving back to, not a bright shiny new one.

      1. Veronica Mars*

        The problem is that they’re not really reasonable enough to see that my scope changed. When they took away my last remaining fun project last week and exchanged it for a terrible one, I said I was feeling frustrated that my job no longer resembled what I was promised. And they gave me a blank stare and said “Well, it IS the Old Spell Archival department, after all.”

        So, regardless of how ‘fair’ it is, they still likely will think a lot less of me.

        1. Annony*

          Is that ok with you? You don’t want to work in Old Spell Archival department ever again, so can they do anything to your career considering your old boss seems to like you?

          1. Veronica Mars*

            That’s hard to assess. On the one hand, it doesn’t get much more irrelevant than Old Spell Archival. When I told my old boss where I was going he was astonished that we even had such a department. Also, there’s things afoot in our company that make being in an irrelevant weird department not the safest place to be, layoff wise.
            On the other hand, because Old Spell Archival is such a niche group, they get a lot of face time directly with the COO. Who is the grand-grand-grand-grand-grand boss of my old boss. I doubt my new boss would take the time to personally trash my career to the most senior of management, but its a risk.

            1. Annony*

              It sounds like it might be worth the risk. Even if your old boss tries to trash talk you, how seriously is the COO going to take a complaint about an internal transfer?

    2. introverted af*

      I would do it, but I have seen friends feel stuck in a job that was not really what they were sold, and want out but not have the chance, even internally, and be miserable for years. One of them was eventually let go because her performance dropped with her motivation and she had a terrible time finding another job because her experience/portfolio of work wasn’t strong enough after her time because of the lack of opportunity and old-fashioned ways of doing things. Get out while the getting is good, imo.

      1. Veronica Mars*

        This is definitely a fear of mine! I know in the grand scheme of things, waiting the traditional year isn’t very long. But its so frustrating sitting here doing work I hate and getting nothing to add to my resume, when I could be building great experience.

        I have to admit, I’ve been openly frustrated about it this week and my boss/colleagues aren’t reacting the best. They’re, well, older men, and their reaction seems to have been “look at this hysterical demanding girl” instead of “I can see why you’re feeling frustrated about having a high profile and interesting job turned into bookkeeping an intern could do.” In retrospect, I should have been more professional. But also, that can be so very hard to do.

        1. WellRed*

          Stop making it openly clear that you are frustrated. You have the chance to move, move. You will do far more damage to your reputation staying there then if you were to move to the other department.

  140. Stuck*

    I’ve been working in law firms for 8 years as a legal assistant/paralegal. It’s not horrible day-to-day but there’s no room for growth and it absolutely kills my motivation. I want out but I can’t figure out how to do it– every place I consider applying to, I’m starting at entry level with a significant pay cut that I simply can’t swing with a kid and a mortgage.

    Anyone have similar experiences or tips? I go through waves of energy, applying to lots of things and see what I get, and inevitably I get a bunch of rejections and start feeling really dejected and like there’s no way to change industries without totally starting over salary-wise (which doesn’t seem feasible).

    1. Veronica Mars*

      The sad fact is, sometimes it really impossible to change jobs without a pay cut. I’m trying to help my little brother with this now. He hates his industry, but is addicted to the cash (its one of those jobs where the amount he makes now is the amount he’ll make for the rest of his life, so good for a beginner but terrible long term). I keep trying to tell him to take the pay cut now, before he has kids and a mortgage…

      That being said, it’s never too late to start over. You just need a plan that fits your parameters. So first, identify what your target condition is. Not your immediate next job, but your pinnacle-of-career job. Do you want to stay in your current are? What kind of work and home life do you want – hours, stress level, etc? What are your strengths and weaknesses? Figure out the long term vision of what you’re trying to achieve.

      Then, figure out a plan to get there. Hopefully, there’s a job out there you’d enjoy long term that you can leverage your current experience for, so its not a complete restart salary-wise. But maybe it looks more like taking a part time job to get experience, or going back to school part time, or saving up money for one more year in your current job before you make the switch.

      Having that long term vision will help you because 1) it will help narrow your focus to only jobs that progress you to where you want to be beyond the next year or two 2) it will give you motivation to keep going and finding solutions even when things get tough. Its no longer a choice between one crappy job and one maybe-less-crappy job, its a choice that is working toward future you.

    2. The Rain in Spain*

      I think it depends on what industries and roles you’re looking to move into. I think it’s easier to maintain/increase your salary if you’re looking at something that takes advantage of your experience and skill set. Some ideas could be: contracts administration, compliance, mediation, legal staff recruiting, legal marketing. Do you know any other paralegals who have changed their track that you could talk to?

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      One thought–have you looked at corporate legal departments? A large corporation has a team of lawyers with the necessary non-lawyer staff….and you can learn the company from within, take advantage of a big company’s employee training program to polish yourself for an in-house transfer to something with overlapping skills.

  141. Zillow jack*

    What do you say when someone asks you what you want to do when…you don’t have goals? This kinda sounds terrible but I’m not a particularly ambitious person in my career. I choose jobs based on if I like the culture, it id be reasonably good at it, and the pay. I try to do good work and I take pride in it but I never really find passion in labor. I find fulfillment from my personal life – friends, travel, reading and learning on my own time
    That being said, I have a wonderful boss who wants to help me develop professionally. She’s always asking what I want to be doing soon, how I want to develop professionally, and I just don’t have answers. I know saying “I don’t care, I just would like to continue on a trajectory where I make inscreasingly more money” would not come across well. How can I respond?

    1. Burnt Out*

      The good thing about career goals is that they’re not as nebulous as life goals. I would look around at what other people in your profession have done or are doing. Are there conferences you could attend, or additional educational and learning opportunities? Is there a particular task that you could do more of? I would just pick a couple of those things that seem feasible and not too time consuming.

    2. The Rain in Spain*

      I’ve couched in in terms of growing my expertise/honing skills in areas xyz and expanding knowledge in abc (new area/new tech/relevant new thing i’m interested in).

    3. Lyudie*

      Can you identify specific skills you want to gain or improve, or areas of your job or the business you want to learn more about? You can frame it as improving your skill set and growing in your current role.

    4. Veronica Mars*

      I’m an engineer, and a lot of engineers get pushed to become managers when really they just want to be technical experts. I don’t know where this myth that everyone wants to keep taking on more responsibility came from. But in interviews, I’ve heard some people use this question to talk about what they want their work life to look like, and I like it.

      “I became an engineer because I love solving problems, and that’s really what I need for job fulfillment – to solve problems every day.”
      “I really like the aspect of my job where I process unusual TPS reports. I would like to make that my niche, becoming a subject matter expert on unusual TPS report resolution.”
      “I really enjoy when a customer comes to me needing something, and I’m able to deliver. Its important to me to keep that as part of my job.”

      So if you want to keep making more money, you’re going to have to develop some kind of skill. You can’t just keep doing the same thing and expect to be worth more. As someone once said to me “Do you have 10 years of experience, or 1 year 10 times?”
      So pick something about your job you like, and think about how you could get even better. Maybe a technical writing class. Maybe just more projects focused on it. You don’t need to tell her you want to be just like her when you grow up. Give her something little she can help you achieve. Something with a difficulty level matched to the rate of progression you want.

      1. Speedwell*

        Veronica Mars – That’s totally my position too. Management and sales are where you get more money, but it’s not what I want to do. So I’m focusing on ways I can increase my value by developing relationships with clients and niche expertise that I will enjoy. I won’t ever make as much as the managers and sales team but I will be able to continue expanding my skills, worth and pay.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      Not developing and making more money isn’t really a viable option. I think you have to consider for yourself if you do want to make more money, and if so, what do you need to do in your career to get there. Even if you stay in the same role and do continue to get annual raises, eventually that you’ll top out or you won’t have the skills to keep up with business. As an example, there were a handful of more senior admin assistants who didn’t keep up with the software who don’t work here anymore. It was a steady progression until they were obsolete. First, they could not be project assistants because that job used the most computer skills. Then they couldn’t be department assistants, and then even the EA jobs required too much tech. I’d be okay with someone wanting to focus on their current role, but if they didn’t want to learn within their role, that would be a problem.

      1. Kathenus*

        This is what I was thinking when I read this, but AnotherAlison phrased it perfectly in her response. It sounds like making more money is a goal, so that’s what the development could be geared towards.

    6. introverted af*

      I am in the same boat, and have been looking at it as – how can I get good enough and enough experience in the things I really like about my job to be able to do more of those things and paid more money to do them? Part of my struggle has been that I really like more admin/clerical work and have a liberal arts education, and to a lot of people that doesn’t sound great, but that’s what I really like doing for work. Also, I’m relatively early on in my career so I’ve been thinking about long term viability and how can I develop skills that keep me working stable jobs.

      I recently moved to a job doing more admin work, which I love, so check that box. I’ve only been here a couple months, but my interest in database management continues to grow so I’m looking at ways I can use that skill here and education I can get on that. My work has also always been pretty project based, so I’m always keeping an eye out for things that add value to the company while maybe being a bit more than or not quite exactly in my day-to-day expectations from my boss that other people don’t have time for to take on. Hopefully this helps!

    7. Not So NewReader*

      If you want more money then you actually do have a goal. More money is a goal.
      It sounds like you like where you work now? Ask your boss what you can do to make yourself of more value to the company.
      Since you have no major push in any direction, pick new responsibilities that are more or less fit in with your natural abilities. The idea here is to have a good shot at success. Since it does not matter what you are doing, then pick stuff you are naturally good at.

      Conversely, ask your boss what she would suggest for a person such as yourself.

  142. Bookslinger In My Free Time*

    Changes that may not go as intended- how do you raise a flag without seeming like a naysayer? My company is switching to a vendor that will take over the most time consuming part of my job (shipping/logistics). I am not opposed to having more time to do the 6,785,334 things I have to do during our busy season. BUT the outside people I have been working with to make sure all our teacups go where they should go are expressing concern, and are having trouble getting answers from the contact at Big Teacup Logistics Provider. My training with BTLP does not take place until three weeks before our shipping season kicks off (I get stress induced heartburn, I have been feeling the burn). I have passed issues along as they are brought to my attention, and I they are not something that I can answer, but I don’t want to come across as unenthusiastic.

    I’ve been told I should speak up and express concerns or questions, or compliments, etc, as I am leaning toward a long term with this company (love the company just not getting a lot of info) and wouldn’t refuse the opportunity to move into management. My approach to everything in life is “what can go wrong and how can I help it go right?”, and that’s what I want coming across, not “this is a terrible idea and I never want to change from How Things Have Always Been Done”. Any tips?

    1. Mill Miker*

      Something I’ve heard a few times, and have had some success with myself, is “There’s a few risks I’d like to flag to make sure they get handled properly”, or something along those lines. Avoid “raising” “concerns” or “problems”, as that can sound like opposition and roadblocks, but “flagging” a few “risks” is helpful and collaborative, especially if you have info others don’t.

      1. Mill Miker*

        I just realized this is pretty close to the phrasing you opened your question with, sorry about that. The main point being to focus on matter-of-fact-ness and solution finding.

      2. Bookslinger In My Free Time*

        Thanks- I tend to be matter of fact to a fault (surprised professors getting my BSBA when I admitted to lack of soft skills as I am unequivocally female) and I know the way I tend to say things can come across negative when there isn’t body language to provide context. We have multiple plants, and aside from my plant manager, everyone I report to is easy coast US, and I am Midwest US. Our other plants have more access to reliable brokers than we do, whereas we rely more on local carriers for teacup transportation. So on everything else, I am the only one able to identify these potential road bumps. My plant manager listens to my concerns at least, and doesn’t seem to take them as overly negative or uncooperative. I could be overthinking this whole thing- interpersonal communication is probably my weakest point.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Sounds to me like you have the makings of a good project manager–and the need for the PM jargon. That ‘dialect’ is easily understood by MBAs.
          If haven’t had any formal project management training, find some reading material and give yourself an intro. Also learn to use the phrases popular in the material for your company’s big initiative of the month, whether it’s Six Sigma, Lean/agile, Kanban, or something baked up in-house.

          1. Bookslinger In My Free Time*

            Company jargon is a mishmash of several things, and changes as regularly as the Mad Hatter changes tea cups :D

            I have had a few project management style tasks from corporate, that are not communicated that way to the plant management team, so it got weird. I have marginal experience in PM, aside from the courses I took for my BSBA- but it wasn’t a good experience (two years working on an Army flooring bid, simultaneously updating with each new request AND fixing what the previous person seriously screwed up- the place I was working with at the time lost money on it between the changes and the corrections. It was unpleasant lol) Time to dust off my old notes ^_^

  143. Burnt Out*

    I’m a junior attorney (3.5 years) who has been dealing with a toxic work environment for some time, and with a colleague who has it in for me. I live and work in a big city, but I went straight into an in-house role so I’m not making big bucks, and I have student loans. I’m from a very small town in the country and I’ve been considering moving back home to decompress and save money, because I feel like the city and this job are eating me alive.

    I want to apply to assistant manager-level retail jobs (or even sales associate level) in my home state while studying for the MPRE and the bar again (no license reciprocity between these states). I was happiest when I was working retail, and could go into work every day and leave work at work. But I’m also concerned about the optics around that sort of move. What would I say? How would I frame it? If I leave out my J.D. and B.S. when applying, that’s a huge chunk of unaccounted-for time that would (I assume) be a red flag for a hiring manager. Does anyone have any advice for me?

    1. The Rain in Spain*

      Are you wanting to get away from in-house work altogether? A different industry might be a better fit for you, something to keep in mind (speaking from experience).

      I would recommend doing some pro bono work if you can while you study- it’ll help with local connections when you’re ready to job search.

      1. Burnt Out*

        I like the in-house environment because there’s less pressure to work long hours. I work 50-55 hours per week right now, and my friends at firms do 60-85. I’d be interested in federal, state, or local government work though, and I’m not married to the in-house life.

        Pro bono isn’t an option because of lack of funds. Even if I move back home my parents will be charging me rent, and I don’t have the capacity to work full time, study, and do pro bono.

        1. The Rain in Spain*

          Agreed, the hours are *much* better. Finance wasn’t a good fit for me but healthcare has been wonderful, so I hope you’re able to find something you enjoy (in a non-toxic environment!). Totally understand re lack of pro bono time. Maybe you can volunteer for shorter stints (post bar pre-results and/or in the earlier stages of studying)- eg our local bar has weekly volunteer opportunities for intake at the court house. It’s a few hours, you don’t actually dispense any legal advice, and you meet other local lawyers.

          Also, I deeply understand the horror that is studying while working full time. Boring, but definitely doable. I actually used an online-only prep course and loved it for the self-pacing. Thought I’d share!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Consider clerking for a local judge? In the process of applying for the job you would be able to explain everything you said here. The judge might be happy to have a lawyer working for her.

      Not the question you asked, sorry, but it is a work around for having to explain a chunk of time.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Two thoughts from a non-lawyer :
      Can’t you study for & take the bar in your home state from where you are? I know lawyers who are certified in more than one state.
      And because you’re in a toxic job, why not look for a different job in the state where you are now? 3.5 years is plenty long to show stability, and you have local connections there already. Ideally a company that does legal work in your state AND your home state?

      1. Burnt Out*

        I could study here, but you have to go physically in-state to take the state’s bar. In terms of connections, I really don’t have any (I’m not good/haven’t made the time to network), and I don’t care enough about the state that I’m currently in to stay. I don’t think I made a mistake in coming here but I think that I affixed a lot more of my hopes and dreams on this place than was practicable or realistic, the way many young people do.

        Companies don’t operate in the way that you’re describing. The company may have business in multiple states, but the lawyer would be based in one, usually at corporate headquarters, and would only fly out to other places for investigations and emergencies. Law firm attorneys certainly fly in and out of multiple states, but I wouldn’t be in a position to demand that I work from my home state and whatever state they were based in, and it circles back to the issue of my not having the capacity for the grueling work hours.

        At this point I have a rough idea of what I want to do (work at a non-legal or lower-stress job to study) and am more seeking reassurance and assistance with how to explain the situation and my departure so that it doesn’t look shady-I’m not being disciplined by the state bar or under investigation at work, but I’m concerned it may look like that on paper.

  144. FeelingCrazy*

    An organization recently reached out and began recruiting me. They’re very similar to my current employer (where I am happy). Normally I say thanks but no thanks, but this individual asked if we could connect even just to network for down the road. No harm right? I’m not intrested in leaving my organization but this would offer a approx. $15k pay increase. I’ve never been focused on money (as long as I can pay my bills) more on the company, the people, and my mental health. I love my current organization, I don’t want to leave, but $15k would go a long way in my current financial situation. I’ve decided to move forward with a formal phone interview.

    How can I approach this with my organization…I’d like to talk about staying and receiving a raise before I have an offer…because realistically I don’t really want to take the offer…but I feel like that pay increase would be stupid to pass up where a $2k increase I would eagerly ignore.

    Can I bring this up before even having an offer in hand? I want them to know that I don’t want to leave…but money talks. I feel extremely valued at my organization but I don’t know if financially that big of a pay bump is even realistic, and in reality everyone is replaceable. I don’t think I’d ever really be comfortable taking a counter offer…because I feel like that would tarnish my loyalty, but it seems smarter to wait until an actual offer is in hand. But I also don’t even want to get to that point.

    I feel crazy.

    1. The Rain in Spain*

      I think you need to have the other offer in hand before you can try to negotiate a retention offer.

      1. Close Bracket*

        Nope! If you are thinking of leaving bc you need more money, some companies will try to keep you from looking by offering more. Such people are known as flight risks, and many companies will focus on retaining flight risks. It’s all a “know your company” thing, though.

    2. Burnt Out*

      Get the offer, and go in with a salary bump in mind that your current employer can realistically meet. “I have an offer from X Company for a $15k increase in salary. I’d like to stay here, but I would need Y in order to do so.”

    3. Close Bracket*

      You are the point where you can talk to them about retaining them. You don’t have an offer in hand, and you might not get one, so you don’t really have enough ammo to ask for a specific raise. If you were to talk to your management, and I can’t advise you on whether that’s a good approach, the conversation you want to have is what level of raise would make you resist outside recruitment offers, and is that level of raise reasonable to ask for at your company? Do some research at other organizations to see what they are paying and go in armed with that knowledge. Say $15k more is typical–make a case for $15k more. Say $15k more is wildly optimistic and $5k more is more typical–ask for $5k more. Usually, you want to tie your compensation to your performance not to your personal circumstances. Since your personal circumstances are what make you susceptible to recruitment, you can bring it up in passing. Keep the bulk of your argument on your performance and on similar positions, though.

      1. Close Bracket*

        *retaining you, not retaining them. It’s a little different from being at the counter offer stage.

        1. FeelingCrazy*

          I’ve been planning on having a conversation about pay increase for a bit but the timing has felt off. I do feel that my performance and the value I add to the organization, warrant an increase. It has just seemed to be the wrong time to approach the discussion every time I think about doing it. I guess I just have to bite the bullet. If they say no, then they have to understand I may look elsewhere. It just stinks because I don’t want to…but as much as of never made money a priority, life comes with expenses.

      2. Annony*

        I agree. If you feel you are worth more, figure out what number you would need in order to stay and make your case for why you are worth that much without bringing this other company into it at all.

    4. Mockingjay*

      Rather than ask for a counteroffer, why don’t you make a case for a salary increase based on your performance, right now? You have a job you are really happy with and an increase would only make it better. Do your research; pick a number that would make you happy, and write up the justification showing why you deserve it. Maybe tie it to cost of living; there was a letter on today’s thread regarding salaries that weren’t keeping pace with the area’s rising home and rental costs. You mentioned $15K at the potential job; could $10K at your current org work for you? And so on.

      Counteroffers can be tricky; I don’t think you’re ever viewed quite the same way after you accept one.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I completely agree with this. Don’t use a counteroffer, just have a conversation about salary/a raise. AAM has a section of advice about how to approach the conversation.

    5. mreasy*

      I disagree with everyone who says you have to have an offer in hand. I think you can say, “I’m happy here, I’m not looking to move on, but a company is trying to recruit me for a comparable role with a X% higher salary. This has led me to do a bit of research” (and actually do the research here), “and I’ve realized that given my [X and Y performance indicators and extremely positive performance evaluations], as well as the market average at the role, I would like to be making more like $X. Is this something that you think is possible within the next year for me?” Then they know you’re not actively looking, but you’ve been prompted by an external circumstance to seek information about the salary range for your role. If you’re a high performer, this is a reasonable conversation to have. If they say “absolutely not,” you know where you stand with them and can go from there.

      2. T. Boone Pickens*

        That’s all well and good except FeelinCrazy doesn’t indicate that they’re underpaid in the role, just that another company is willing to pay $15k more.

        There’s lots of factors to consider here FeelinCrazy. When was your last review? How is your current comp calculated? What were your last couple raises like? I have about a hundred other questions but for the sake of the forum, I’ll save them!

        Now, if you haven’t had a formal salary review in a year+ then yes, I think you can ask about an increase. What you can’t do is go to your current company and ask for a raise on the off chance that you might get recruited without having a complete picture of what the compensation looks like at the other company that reached out to you. For all we know the $15k increase will be swallowed up by huge insurance premiums and unlimited PTO versus traditional time off.

        The great thing about your situation is you seem pretty happy in your current role so I’d go through with the phone interview and see what the other company at least has to say. You won’t get an offer based on a phone interview so to me there is no harm, no foul. If you end up getting to the in person interview stage you’ll be able to get a copy of the benefits guide and all that other good stuff.

  145. halfwolf*

    can someone help me find a post? or, if you have a great memory, just the advice therein would be helpful! i feel sure alison has addressed this kind of situation before, but my searches have not turned anything up yet.

    a couple years ago, my partner got to the finalist stage for a great job where positions don’t open up very often. ultimately, they didn’t get it, but their contacts at the job were very encouraging that my partner was a great applicant (despite being very early in their career and having the least experience of the finalists) and told them to apply again the next time one of these positions opened up. well, one just did! their contact from the last process is still at the company; i believe alison has advised in these situations to apply through the regular channel, and then to reach out to the contact letting them know that you’ve applied. what i’m trying to remember is a) whether you should attach resume and cover letter to that additional email and b) what a good example of what to say in that email is. also, if i’m totally off base in my memory and this isn’t the right thing to do, i certainly want to hear that! thanks in advance.

    1. Symplicite*

      I would definitely reach out and apply with an updated resume and cover letter through the normal means.

      If your partner has the contact information from the last time (hr, etc), you should definitely reach out without attaching the resume and cover letter and say something like,

      My name is Symplicite Simple, and I am applying to the Teapot Maker position. Back in >>year<>Teapot designer<< position, and despite not being a finalist then, you indicated that I should apply again if another position comes available.

      I have submitted my cover letter and resume online for the Teapot Maker position that I see has recently been posted. Would you like me to send them to you in a separate email?

      If you could let me know, I would appreciate it.

      Sincerely,
      Symplicite

  146. Meg*

    I haven’t had a boss/department head in almost a year, after my former boss left and the organization decided to not replace her. It’s been an incredibly challenging year, and we’re finally making moves to hire a replacement. I’ve been able to interview (as part of a panel) the top 4 candidates, and while I am far from the deciding vote, I will be asked for my opinion.

    I’m having such a hard time thinking through which candidate I like the best, and who would be the right fit. How do you figure that out when you’re interviewing? I imagine I would have an even harder time if I were actually the decision maker.

    1. RecruitToday*

      When faced with candidates that are all great I often find myself ranking them. This is the same thing you would do if you were say, judging a competition. Take the ones you like, and start by comparing two. Which one is better (lets say they are both equally qualified, which one felt like they would fit in more with your team), then when you have your favorite of the 2 compare them to the next one and so on and so forth. Essentially you’ll narrow it down to the one you like best…

      But realistically someone should outshine the others with a combination of qualifications and personality.

    2. Kathenus*

      I take notes during the interviews, and for my feedback I do a bullet point list for each candidate of things that stood out to me (positive and negative). Then I write a quick summary with how I’d rank the candidates and why.

      Usually going through my notes to write this helps me to figure out things in my head about which I think might be the best fit and why. But then also realizing that you may only see a portion of the candidates’ materials and/or interviews so may only have a piece of the puzzle, so while your feedback is valuable there may be a lot of other factors that weigh into the decision that you aren’t aware of.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Talk to others who are on the panel. Sometimes other people’s opinions can help us realize our own thoughts.

      Keep in mind what you liked or did not like about your old boss this might help in some manner also.

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Create a rubric: What are skills, management styles, work styles, etc. that are important to a successful manager-employee relationship for you? Then, score each candidate across the rubric, so you have a standard set of criteria you are working with across all of the candidates.

  147. HRforYou*

    I posted a few weeks back but definitely didn’t pay attention and posted way too late. But I have two questions I’d love input on. Apologies in advance for length.

    1- Our top greandboss wants to know about everything, all the time, and most everyone in the office spends considerable time waiting for their “stamp of approval” to complete their work. For me, that means everything from projects to simple all staff emails (e.g. holiday early office closures, promotions, terminations, general updates, etc.) can take weeks and even months to go out and it makes me and my boss look very unprofessional, dismissive of staff, and unorganized which really bothers me.
    What’s a better way to view this so I get less frustrated? Or is there a way to learn how to get these tasks done without seeming insubordinate? So much of my time is spent waiting and I want to be more of an asset for my company than seems currently possible with this structure.

    2- My boss (who is amazing and I hope never leaves) is a contractor so only works a few days a week. Which means we spend a lot of time after hours just trying to catch-up on our own work after meetings all day. And since our checklist is always the last thing we do before heading home (anywhere between 7-8pm when we close at 4:45), I never feel I have time to ask about my goals or professional development with my boss. I have ideas for both, which is good!
    What’s the best way to ask those questions when it’s too late to sit for another hour to discuss that kind of thing? Or is there a better way I can manage things?

    Excited to hear thoughts for either or both, and I hope everyone has relaxing weekends!

    1. The Rain in Spain*

      1. can you ask for ‘negative consent’? grandboss, since this announcement is time sensitive, i will send it out on (day) at (time) unless i hear from you by (day). thank you.

      2. set a meeting to discuss with your boss! it’s important to carve out time for that.

    2. LunaMei*

      1. Is it possible to implement a weekly/biweekly/daily check in with the top boss to get those things approved? Like a quick 30 min “here’s what’s on the list, yes/no”, and if she has other feedback, you can schedule another session or take care of it quickly. That way Top Boss still has “approval” but you’re not waiting for ages to get things approved. (Side note: that boss sounds like a micromanager and there may not be a good way around this, I have worked for people that like.)
      2. Schedule a meeting with your boss to talk just about your professional development.

    3. Daisy-dog*

      1. Do you know for sure that he actually wants to approve or is it just the way it’s been done? The Rain in Spain has a good option, but I would just test the waters by not asking for approval on the simple stuff. If you know that the announcement’s content is already approved, then just send it out and see what happens. For projects, provide information, but don’t wait for approval until there’s a big decision. “I’ve narrowed down some HRIS options and will start meeting with sales representatives over the next few weeks. Please let me know if you have specific suggestions or opinions on features and I will involve you in the process. Otherwise, I’ll let you know what I like and how much it will cost.”

      2. I struggle with this myself, but I would say to get time on the calendar dedicated to it!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      1- You know you are on a sinking ship, right? You have your life vest handy, right?

      2- Line up your topics and questions then set an appointment to talk to your boss just about this stuff. Consider emailing the questions so he has time to prep.

  148. Olivia*

    Does anyone know how to move on after you’ve left a toxic workplace? I had a supervisor who was bad at people management and then on top of that, she made multiple racist remarks and jokes in my presence and in one case, at me. I know that I shouldn’t be beating myself about how I reacted at the time (constant crying, shrinking away and eventually telling upper management about what happened) but I’m still kinda stuck in that headspace. Any suggestions?

    1. StellaBella*

      Look here on this website for advice – using the search function, loads of advice on this, and also get some counseling if you can. It helped me a lot after a toxic job from hell. Mindfulness training too, may help. Good luck, and I am sorry, Olivia.

    2. Spero*

      Honestly, therapy!! If you have someone you’ve worked with in the past go in and do a real bitch session. You CAN do with a friend but I find myself backtracking or feeling bad I’m so bothered by it in those situations. With therapist I can say, I know this is not a mental health problem but I think that I’m so bothered/struggling to move on could become one – can I talk this through with you? The provider can decline if that’s not what they are interested in providing. Or, they can validate – yes you are right. This is how people feel in abnormal/abusive work environments.

      1. Windchime*

        Therapy was really helpful for me when I was in a toxic work situation. I told the therapist my story and she was like, “Yeah, that’s toxic. No wonder you’re so anxious.” Basically she validated that I was not, in fact, making things up in my head and she gave me the support to make me feel like I could find a new job.

        I was also really careful about my next job. I turned down a couple of lowball offers (I was lucky to be in a position where I could do that), and when I found what I thought was the right job, I just tried to be really honest about how I was trying to find the right fit. They turned out to be awesome and I’ve been there 3 years.

    3. Daisy-dog*

      Time will be what helps the most. Therapy would also help.

      Also, you should not feel guilt for how you reacted to the situation. It’s a situation that you shouldn’t have been in – there isn’t an “appropriate” reaction.

  149. Spero*

    If you have a role with multiple people in the same role, but one has slightly more seniority and reporting duties–how would you title? I was thinking “Llama coordinator I” and “Llama coordinator II” but then was unsure of which would be I and which would be II? The more senior would be I?

    1. merp*

      In my brief experience with state government, which may or may not apply to your situation, I is always lowest level and goes up in seniority/responsibility/pay from there.

    2. Lyudie*

      I think generally the higher the level, the higher the number, so in your example Llama coordinator I would be a lower level than Llama coordinator II.

    3. Annony*

      Where I work the more senior is the higher number. You start and 1 and work your way up. But if you only have two, you can go with Junior Llama Coordinator and Senior Llama Coordinator. Or even just Llama Coordinator and Senior Llama Coordinator.

      2. Brownie*

        Now all I can picture is my work as a giant DnD game. “Oh yeah, Bob, he’s a 4th level sysadmin, he’s got a whole book of spell-scripts that none of the lower level sysadmins get. When he gets to 5th level he’ll get root access too!”

    1. AnonPi*

      That is messed up, particularly coming from an HR person. Other people not so much. I was chastised by a former manager because I requested that he let me know as soon as possible if they decided to lay me off so I can try to find another position (knowing that the previously gave a coworker 2 weeks notice but knew for 3 months they were going to lay him off). He said I must not manage my money well if I can’t afford to be without work for several months. Course he also yelled at a worker about her “lack of dedication to her career” when she gave notice that she would be leaving her position in the next few months to relocate to be with her husband (who was in another state) since they wanted to start a family. He has since been promoted of course.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I went looking. So far the company is still anonymous so the letter recipient’s job is safe from accusations of leaking.
        Popular Mechanics did a great breakdown of the monthly cost of running a new Camry vs. The 2005 Camry. https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a30647780/viral-email-hr-employee-used-car-math/
        And EvilHrLady says policy is legal, albeit stupid.
        https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/its-perfectly-legal-for-your-boss-to-tell-you-to-drive-a-nicer-car.html

  151. StellaBella*

    So … just a note, semi rant (?) no advice needed but … I work in a country with defined and undefined work contracts. I have a defined contract. Normally 3 months before contract ends, one gets a chat with HR and management to discuss renewal or not. Since Dec I have asked in writing about status, etc… no replies from HR or management after 3 emails over 8 weeks. This week I sent the 3rd email on Monday asking again if they had an update, and also, this week, I am on leave….then out of the blue, I got a text msg from a colleague saying she was surprised the director told her I was not coming back at the end of my contract (in a couple of months). So I guess that is cleared up. Gossip…or, known as ‘how not to manage.’ Ugh.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Ouch. That sucks. I am sorry this happened this way. Like you said, professionalism: optional.

  152. Anonymously Anonymous*

    Aside from therapy, etc. what is helpful for getting over a difficult boss?

    The boss at my last job seemed fine for the first 3 years I worked there, but a few months before I left did a complete 180. This resulted in him not telling me anything he expected of me and YELLING at me/making uncalled for comments about me (unrelated to the job/task) when I didn’t DO what he wanted me to do according to his expectations. I was able to get the hell out and get a new job. Thinking about this incident makes me sick to my stomach every once in awhile. He gave a half-hearted apology and went on to pretend that everything was normal. It doesn’t help that my actual coworkers had about 400 excuses for why he did what he did. The fact that he was apparently under stress is the big excuse they give for his behavior. Well, okay… but his job is to deal with those situations. Does that give him the right to scream at me? I guess to some people, it does. (He was so furious, I thought he was going to have a stroke or a heart attack!!) Why couldn’t he tell me his expectations like a grown-up?

    Everyone I’ve talked to about this who ISN’T from my previous job is like “wow, that’s fucked up, he shouldn’t have done that,” but everyone at my old job thinks he was completely in the right. It’s kind of soured me against my former coworkers, who I was sort of hoping to remain friends with… but I don’t think that’s happening. Gah, I just feel really conflicted about this whole incident… still. (Don’t even get me started that I think he framed my leaving as him FIRING ME DUE TO THE BUDGET to some employees in a different department… I literally had someone approach me on my last day and say “I can’t believe that they’re doing this to you!” because she was somehow told that I was being let-go… when, no, I found a new job myself!!!!!!)

    I really appreciate my new job, despite the fact that it’s temporary, because my manager actually corrects my mistakes… kindly. He also acknowledges his role in some of the mistakes I’ve made, which haven’t been major, but he seems to take responsibility.

    Anyway, will I ever get over that????

    1. Princess Scrivener*

      Yes. A non-dysfunctional work environment and the passing of time helps. It’s been just over four years since I moved out of a jacked-up work / boss situation, and I just realized this week I’m finally feeling confident and part of a team again.

    2. 30 Years in the Biz*

      You’ll get over it, but it will take time. Please remember it was Them and not you that was the problem. It sounds like a toxic workplace where people kept their heads down, made excuses, and bowed to the whims of your controlling boss. Feel sorry for your former colleagues. They are caught in the dysfunction and have normalized it. Now that you’re back out in the real world, at a more sane place, you’ll begin to slowly adjust. Something similar happened to me after transfer to a new manager and I had seen it happen to two other people at our company in his department before me (isolation, bullying, retaliation, gas-lighting), so I was somewhat ready. Still, it did not prevent the humiliation, nausea, insomnia, anxiety, depression resulting from my “layoff” which I still deal with. I see a therapist and take medication now. I hope to be off everything in a year. I now have a very good new job where I’m valued and respected. Starting a new job also puts a bit of pressure on you. It will get better – you’ve got this! It’s also great to have Ask a Manager for support :)

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Yes, you will. But you will always remember.

      Try to think of it this way. You had TWO betrayals, not one. The screaming boss and the cohorts who thought that the screaming was okay. No, screaming is not okay. And this means you have to learn to trust again on two levels, the boss level and the cohort level. This is going to take a bit, but here is something to know- it tapers off. It doesn’t end in one day, but it does not remain intense like it is now.

      It’s good to hang on to the fact that a screaming person is screaming because privately they believe they have lost control and they cannot do the job.
      In all likelihood, you are correct he is headed for a heart event if he continues to carry that level of upset.

      I do have an exercise you might want to try. It sounds too simple to work, the trick is to keep doing it. Every time you think of that “person” or that whole situation, say to yourself, “That is over. I am safe now.”
      If you forget, no biggie, just tell yourself, “Whoops. I meant to say that is over and I am safe now.”

      Another good thing to do is vow to get yourself out of a situation like that sooner. Yeah, it’s important to promise ourselves to take care of our own selves. “Self, I learned something here and we are never, ever going to stay in a situation like that again. I promise me.”

    4. tangerineRose*

      I think your former co-workers had their minds warped by being in this unhealthy environment and assuming it was OK. Sort of like Stockholm Syndrome.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Now that you’re in a sane job, as you develop trust in your manager, consider telling her what makes you flinch because of past history.
      My example–new job after an interstate move. I realized that I was getting extremely anxious every time my manager emailed me to say come on in, and it was never a big deal. I went out on a limb and told him, that in a couple of old jobs, that was code for bad news or a disproportionate reaction to a minor mistake. I asked him to give me time to get over it, that it was a fully subconscious reaction, not anything he had done. He blinked a couple of times and asked if if I’d be more comfortable with a request for XYZ status update.
      No one is a perfect manager, but he was willing to change his working style to help me. And yes, it worked.

  153. Question for Remote Workers*

    I saw a lot of remote workers chime in regarding today’s question about videoconferencing and I wanted to pick your brains a bit. A bit of backstory, I’ve been out of work for 6 months and was trying to land a remote position for most of that time. I have done some remote work in the past ( meaning 2 days remote, 3 days in office) and I was applying for positions at or a little below my former job title and…nothing. I got a few initial interviews, but no 2nd round callbacks out of 50+ applications. What I want to know is how did you land your remote job? Is remote work common for your job title/field or is it company specific? What gives you an edge in the remote market?

    I’m re-targeting my energy now on Major Tech City where my brother lives so I can use his address and appear to be a local candidate, this has been more fruitful and I’m finally getting to 2nd round interviews and more phone screens but I’d still love feedback on remote work so I can use the tips later because I am certain I want to work remotely. Thank you!!

    1. Jenn*

      I stumbled into my current remote job. My field is insurance, particularly group life/leave/disability insurance. The majority of national carriers have gone nearly virtual for non operational positions. I’m an Account Manager, so my job is 100% virtual whereas someone who is in the call center and processes claims is in one of our offices. I love working remotely and after a really bad open office environment at my last job, I am happy to have the minimization of distractions.

      1. Question for Remote Workers*

        Good to know! Your title is similar to the jobs I applied for , but I’m in the tech sector. Insurance sounds interesting too, would it be something I can transition to with little difficulty in the future? Thanks for replying, I love hearing that its made you happier after the open office–I’m similar and get distracted easily listening to others in that environment.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          If by tech you mean software, software & database management are a big deal in insurance companies.

    2. Ann Furthermore*

      For me, it was just a right-place-right-time kind of thing. My last job was eliminated last year after the company was acquired, so I was back on the market. I got a LinkedIn message from a recruiter for a position that was pretty much a perfect match for my skill set. I’m a software consultant, so much of my work can be done remotely, and then I travel a little to client sites. There are quite a few of us who work remotely. The company wants people with the right skills more than they want butts in seats at the office.

      1. Question for Remote Workers*

        Thats great! Traveling to clients is something I would love to do, I have a sentence in my cover letter explaining that I’ve worked remotely in the past, and am comfortable traveling to clients as the job requires but IDK if that was redundant. What disheartened me a bit was one job I applied to and their rejection email mentioned getting 2000+ applications! If thats common for these jobs then IDK how i’d stand out…I’m sure they chose someone great but I would have loved to know how they determined THIS person out of 2000 was the one ya know?

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      The fact that my job is remote was incidental, I didn’t know when I applied that it would be. But almost everyone from the manager level down in my department (barring a couple folks in specific roles) works remotely. People are only onsite if they specifically ask to be or as a disciplinary measure; we don’t have enough office space for more than a couple of people onsite. Plus my team is spread over a 200 mile range, and a couple other teams have employees in other states. I’m a team lead for a group of medical coders for a large hospital system.

  154. Aggretsuko*

    I now have to share an office again. Sigh.
    One of my coworkers died and nobody told us for over a week and then gave 3 hours notice that the funeral was that day.
    I really wish people would stop bugging me to help with their workload while I am still working on my own and don’t have extra for them.
    That is all.

  155. Preferred Gender Pronoun*

    We are in the process of hiring interns. All of the area colleges now require students and facility to list their preferred pronoun on their email signatures, online bios, and resumes. I don’t have issue with the first two, but am I the only one that think its a little much to include that on resume? Or am I out of touch? Personally don’t think anything about your gender should be on your resume.

    3. Mediamaven*

      I would tend to agree with you. Feels like that could create issues that could lead to discrimination.

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Agree, that’s problematic.

      Are you in a position to push back to your company’s contacts at the schools, pointing out (as others commenters said) that this is opening the door to (maybe unconscious, maybe conscious) bias? Either you directly or whomever is your company’s point of contact.

  156. Smedley Farquahr*

    I’ve worked in my current position for 8 years, and always had excellent feedback on my work. The last three years have been extremely stressful, due to a new department head who, we all agree, seems to have some sort of cognitive disability and a really bad temper. I’ve struggled with depression and anxiety all my life, but I was able to control the symptoms for most of my adulthood – until I started working under this person. Last year I had a couple of instances when I cried and had to leave work early in reaction to verbal abuse and I received a warning for being “disruptive” (I don’t think the person who was abusing me was punished at all). Three months ago I ended up getting a note from my doctor that stated I needed accommodation for my mental health and HR agreed that for a three-month test period, I could reduce my hours from 40 to 30 per week and work from home two days a week. My direct supervisor has only had good things to say about this arrangement and is constantly telling me how responsive and productive I’ve been; just last week she encouraged me to get another note to extend the arrangement. Yesterday we met with HR, and suddenly the tone changed. I was told that I could have another three months, but that “you or someone else” would need to work 40 hours a week in this position. At the same time, they produced a revised job description that eliminated a portion of my job that had previously been estimated as taking 40% of my time, and which no one else in our office would be able or qualified to do! My therapist wonders if this is a ploy so that they can argue in court that accommodating me at 30 hours a week is not a reasonable accommodation and that by reducing my hours by 25% I can’t do 40% of my job. I know the ADA isn’t necessarily clear on what constitutes an unreasonable accommodation, but can they argue that it is unreasonable after they have granted it for 6 months and have told me that I am doing my job well? I am really frightened that I due to my condition and the conditions of my job, I am not going to be able to act in a way that they don’t consider “disruptive” if I have to be there and suffer abuse 40 hours a week.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Have you been job hunting? Is quitting on the table for you?

      Is the nature of the verbal abuse against a protected class?

      What does your supervisor think of any of this? Where is she when the verbal abuse is going on?

      I am a conservative person. For my own protection, if it were me I would assume that they are prepared to argue in court. I always say make a plan for worst case scenario and then hope that something less happens.

      Overall when there is rot at the top, the whole company is precarious. The fact that this guy has been allowed to behave this way for three years indicates to me that there is more than one problem going on here. There’s a bunch of rot at the top.

      Has anyone reported this guy to HR?

  157. amalam*

    I left an abusive relationship late last year, and left my job at the same time, since I couldn’t cope with work while personal life was exploding. I’m now looking for jobs again, but what do I say to the question of ‘why did you leave your last job?’ without going into thorny personal information?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I had some personal things to deal with, so the ability to take a few months away from work was very helpful. Now that things have been resolved, I’m excited to get back to work.

    3. Can I get a Wahoo?*

      I took some time off to care for a family member (you are that family member, but they don’t need to know that)

    4. Nervous Nellie*

      Congrats to you for coming out the other end of such huge changes!

      I would say that I took time off to attend to a personal matter, and now that the matter has been resolved, I am eager to contribute as a (insert job title here) at this great company. That gently steers them from prying, and lets you redirect the subject to your interest, skills and ambitions for the job.

      Good luck!!! Go gettem! :)

  158. LogicalOne*

    I am not sure what to do and need advice because what happened to staff was unfair and I also don’t want to be afraid of losing my job if I report this to anyone.

    Many of us where I work have suspicion to believe that the manager at the undisclosed company I work for ended up stealing the very generous (a few hundred dollars worth) gift certificate that our Corporate office issued us because we made the most sales out of anyone in the district. It was a little competition we had back in November with the other branches and as a reward, the gift certificate was to throw a massive pizza party for the entire branch. While I have no concrete evidence that the manager blatantly stole it, some staff have theories as to why we believe so. First, we knew the certificate arrived because several of us saw the gift card on our managers desk when we’ve gone to his office to talk to him. Someone mentioned they even asked about the gift card when they saw it on his desk and the office manager confirmed that it was the gift from Corporate for winning the district sales challenge.
    Anyway, one person mentioned that whenever they ask about the gift card and ask when are we going to have the party, the manager either attempts to change the subject or flat out says, “I don’t know” and not in a jokingly manner, more like in a serious tone. The manager won’t say anything else and remains eerily quiet after that. Another hint that he may have stolen it is because he has mentioned how he’s always broke and needs to pay child support and he pays for this and that and he doesn’t have much money saved, etc. He joked about it a few months ago but we all know he was serious, just trying to find humor in his situation. We’ve even asked some of the other managers about this and they too give the same “I don’t know” or unsure response. They don’t seem eager to want to have the party and have yet to ask when everyone is free so we can go out and celebrate our very hard work. A part of me feels that the managers themselves split the gift card.
    I am disgusted and feel betrayed that such a thing like this could happen. The gift card was issued to us in early December so we could have a holiday pizza party so I would think that they would have by now at least proposed the question as to when we would like to celebrate, a month and a half later well into January. This was supposed to be a holiday pizza party and it’s January 24th so where’s the party? A part of me also feels that if the manager was truly hurting for money as in his life depended on it, then I could understand him taking the money but just don’t keep the rest of us in the dark. Maybe one day soon, he will repay us and we will have he party when he can afford it. I doubt it but I am trying to remain hopeful.

    Thoughts? Are we to feel right in that our reward for hard work was stolen? Should one of us report this to Corporate? Should we as a branch confront our manager about this situation? No one wants to lose their job over this but we do strongly feel entitled to this. I feel this is going to burn bridges with the manager and the rest of the staff so there’s that.
    Thank you to anyone that comments/replies.

    1. Annony*

      I don’t think this is something to report to Corporate or at least not “my manager stole the gift certificate.” Is there someone who was in charge of organizing the competition? Maybe someone could ask them when the pizza party is going to be as a hint that it hasn’t happened.

      1. Bree*

        Yeah, I would just innocently follow up with whoever was in charge of running the contest saying it was fun and that you’re looking forward to having the pizza party…

      2. Just Another Manic Millie*

        Since Corporate was the entity that sent over the gift certificate, I believe that someone at Corporate was the person in charge of organizing the competition. So saying that it’s not something to report to Corporate – report it to the person in charge doesn’t make sense to me. And I bet that if someone asked the organizer, “Hey, when are we going to have our pizza party?” the response would be, “I have nothing to do with that. As your office manager.”

          1. valentine*

            Was this like a gift credit card and not a coupon for a pizza place worth x pizzas? Is there any way to track the spending? (Not necessarily you, but is this something corporate can do?) What if you tell your manager you’d like to have the party yz day and ask if it’s okay to book the pizza place or order in?

            Can you ask the second-most senior person for help? It seems like corporate would leave you in a loop by telling you to ask your manager. Tell corporate everyone’s been looking forward to it and ask if you got your wires crossed as to how to get the certificate and party and if they’d like a picture of the event. But does it help you if they say they sent it to your manager? You’re not going to confront him.

            Why would the other staff be upset that you did something about this?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I wouldn’t approach it as “this was a theft” because you have no proof.

      BUT you can always mention it to corporate that you haven’t had your party yet and see if they start investigating. If there is a coverup going up, then they can fish it out themselves. But don’t say “I think they stole it.” just say “I heard we won and have been eagerly awaiting the party and there hasn’t been anything…”

      It could be that they just suck and the certificate is rotting somewhere. Some people just suck at party planning and don’t want to deal with getting it done.

  159. The Ace Tomato Company*

    Work clothes question. I am a woman and work in a business casual workplace. Any suggestions for “jeans” that could pass for business casual? Like all black or other dark colors that don’t have any different color thread seams? Looking for something that is more low waisted and comfortable. Thanks!

    1. Not All*

      I’m heavier (just worked my way down to a size 14 from 18 a year ago) and short (5’3″ with 30″ inseam). Of all weird places to find business casual jean-like pants, I actually really like the Time Tru boot cut jeans at Walmart. For some reason they never seem to show on the website but every store location in 3 states I’ve looked at has had them. They come in tan or blue denim. The tan pass as khakis/chinos/whatever-you-call-them-in-your-region but fit & feel like jeans. Bonus, they are cheap if your sizes fluctuate a lot like mine right now.

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      The brand NYDJ has dark jeans with dark seams that would be appropriate for business casual (specifically the “Marilyn”) They are available at Nordstrom (and sometimes Nordstrom Rack), and probably other department stores. Talbots also usually has dark wash/dark seam jeans, as well as black jeans and other colors. I like their slim ankle jeans in black and gray; not too skinny, and with a bit of stretch, and looks nice with flats.

    3. Llellayena*

      Walmart has Riders by Lee in black. I also like their dark blue. If your budget can handle a bit higher, Talbots has (had?) a grey color and some other colors that are more even tones (instead of faded/washed). I always look for low waisted because otherwise pants sit at my ribs, so both those brands are probably good options for what you’re seeking.

    4. Sleepless*

      Macy’s has a store brand called Style & Co that has colored jeans that I love. I wear the Curvy Cut skinny jeans, but they have several different fits. They come in several different colors that can absolutely pass for business casual. I have to look professional but I also have to move around a lot and get a bit dirty.

    5. Anono-me*

      I often get my jeans at Maurice’s. They tend to have both tall and short, as well as, plus sizes. They come in multiple colors, not just blue.

  160. Jonah*

    Any advice on getting sales reps to lay off when you’re going to buy their product but there’s a long, slow approval process? I’m looking at getting my company on a software program, and I reached out to a contact at the company who put me in touch with a rep. I was clear that I didn’t need the whole pitch, just pricing and any updates on functionality since I’d used it last. The rep will not leave me alone now. It’s not a huge sale–less than 15k on a product that’s often in the 30s+, and it’s getting to be a lot. I’m honestly really turned off to the company by his behavior. He’s contacting me multiple times a day via email, phone, and LinkedIn for “updates” even though I’ve been clear that nothing has changed and nothing is going to change in the next week. I’m so annoyed that I’m mere seconds from telling him to mark us as a lost sale and leave me alone. I’ve worked with vendors for years, and I’ve never had one who acted like this. He’d be an excellent bill collector.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Do you have contact info for someone above him? Complain, and tell them that the harassment is about to get the company blacklisted.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      I’ve had luck with flat out telling them that if they continue to harass me like this, I will be moving on to another vendor. This is the process, this is the timeline, please feel free to check in with me in (time period), but there will not be daily updates, nor will calling me this much speed the process up.

      If it continues, or hell even now – I’d reach back out to that contact and let them know what’s up, ask if that’s normal for that company.

      I’ve had a couple contractors that *used* to be at my company that tried this and learned very quickly that I do not appreciate it, nor will they get any business that way. (Shout out to the one who managed to get my boss to agree to a meeting and then thought I – the only female manager in the room – was the admin and thought I was going to get them coffee. There was a lot of panicky backing up when it was discovered that I was the primary decision maker on that project.)

      1. Annony*

        Reaching back out to the original contact seems like a good idea. I would ask if I could work with a different rep.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You say it’s a long process but you are going to buy, have you given him an actual time frame or just “IDK later tho.”?

      I have found it helps to say “It takes time for this, check back in at the end of next month if you haven’t heard from me.” [Or whatever time table you have.]

      That gives them a guideline to go by.

      If he doesn’t take “Call me in February” or whatever, then you step it up to being firm and telling him to leave you alone, that he’s giving you a bad impression of the company by his overzealous behavior and that you will speak with someone about getting a new rep if you’re forced to. But give him a chance to fix himself. He’s probably over eager and possibly being pestered by his bosses to seal that deal for real.

      You are the customer. Do not let him have this power in the end.

      If you weren’t interested, you’d say “Don’t call here again” or something like that or just hang up or delete the spam. But since you are interested, you want to keep a cordial relationship but you have to tell him to stop stepping all over your feet like he is. It’s okay to say “Stop stepping on my feet, move yourself.”

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’ve been there too. My former manager evaluated a new vendor whose quote was much higher than the old vendor we have been using. She told them, but they kept contacting her. When she left, they went to her manager who sent them to me. I told them it would be at least a month before I could look at this, and 30 days later the phone calls & emails (plural) started again. She didn’t get it when I clearly told her I was covering for 2 people and this was now low priority. I had to be extremely blunt and use my annoyed voice to tell her I I have no idea when I’ll get back to this, we’re understaffed and not doing low priority projects for the forseeable future.
      I bumped into my old manager socially, and apparently they’d started contacting HER on her personal cell phone (which was apparently once buried in an email thread–not sent to them. Their work was good, but the sales team was so aggressive I refuse to reward it.

  161. Maureen*

    Secondments advice
    I posted this question last weekend, but I think I posted it a little late to get any comments.

    Does anyone have any experience with or thoughts on secondments into a different dept with their employer? There may be a possibility of one and I was thinking about expressing my interest. What were the positives and negatives? Any advice you would give? What would you do differently?

  162. Here we go yet again*

    I went to the bathroom and when I came back, my coworker asked me if her music was too loud. (She thought that I left to go complain to someone that her music was bothering me.) No, I said. I told her that I just had to use the washroom. I feel like I’m walking on eggshells around her because she can be very sensitive and need reassurance. She is a strong person, but she has these bouts of insecurity.

    Any advice on dealing with these types? My last coworkers weren’t like this.

    1. Annony*

      That does seem odd. Have you tried telling her that if you ever have a problem you will tell her directly? It might be best if you time it right after she asks. you if she is bothering you.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My response would have been “If it’s too loud, I’ll let you know, I’m not going to go to the boss over that kind of thing unless we find ourselves in a disagreement about something.”

      Then she can have that assurance that lasts more than just that time. Or at least should…but that kind of person not always the case of course.

  163. One Day At a Time*

    Any advice for when depression just zaps you of your ability to get things done?

    I have what is usually high-functioning depression and anxiety, both of which are being treated with a combination of medicine and therapy. But due a combination of Things, the past month or so have been very difficult for me. I had trouble focusing on my work and I noticed I wasn’t as productive as I usually am.

    Overall things are now a lot better and my work performance has improved, but I’m still having trouble getting completely out of this slump. I was placed in charge of Project, to be completed in February. I’m almost done with project, so I’m not at all worried about missing the deadline, but some co-workers who depend on me finishing Project seem to be a little unhappy that things weren’t done sooner. I’ve since caught up, but I feel guilty for not being as on top of things as usual because of a period of strong depression.

    1. Bree*

      I also have an anxiety disorder, and this winter have also been experiencing depression. I’m sorry; it’s hard!

      First, I’d try to cut yourself some slack about your co-workers seeming annoyed. At least for me, I tend to be oversensitive to that stuff and sometimes even project my guilt onto other people who it turns out aren’t mad at me at all. It’s the anxiety brain! Besides, even if they were annoyed, you’re well under the deadline so you haven’t done anything wrong. Considering the extra obstacles you’re facing, you’ve done great, actually!

      Second, to get through this period of depression-exhaustion, I’ve been extra focused on making lists, tracking my progress, and trying to do good self-care habits. Like, I have a habit tracker I fill out every day. Exercising even for 15 mins every day also seems to be helping me, and I’ve booked therapy appointments a little more frequently. Hang in there! It sounds like you’re pretty much out of the slump already.

    2. sadbutnotbad*

      I’m so there with you. I’m changing medication right now and it’s been really hard. The best thing you can do is be gentle with yourself. Don’t focus on what you didn’t get done–focus on what you did. And make those reasonable bites of the apple. Accept your new reality (slightly decreased productivity) and plan from there, rather than continuing to plan for a level of focus you aren’t ready for right now.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      How’s your intake of sunlight doing? I just drag myself around some days during this time of year. You might benefit from some vitamin D, a happy lamp, or as my doc suggested 20 minutes a day outside in the sun with no hat. He said the sunlight had to hit the top of my head.
      I upped my vit. D, got a happy lamp and I try to get some sun but I don’t do it every day. I do feel less draggy.

      1. One Day at a Time*

        Not that great. I see the sun in the morning on the way to work and then I’m inside for 8 hours away from a window and then when I leave work the sun is starting to set. And lately our sunny days have also been too cold to stay outside for long.

        I’m glad you asked though, I do have a happy lamp and I’m usually good about using it 30-60 minutes or more every day. But with everything else going on I kind of just forgot about it. Thanks for the reminder!

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      About the co-workers—could you suggest a wrapup meeting for after project ends? You’re looking to collect the lessons learned, what worked well, what you’d try differently.
      That gives you a chance to ask whether the team that follows you was allotted enough time between your deadline and their own. Sounds like management set the timrline, but it’s fair to acknowledge and share with them for future ptojects.

  164. Third or Nothing!*

    I am working on a report today that is somehow both complicated and mind-numbingly boring. I noticed I was starting to lollygag so I just started listening to my favorite podcast, Myths and Legends, to help me concentrate.

    Who else listens to stuff at work to help concentrate? What do you listen to? For me it’s a mix of either a storytelling podcast or a Spotify playlist of happy upbeat music.

    1. Book Pony*

      I listen to so many podcasts.

      My brother, my brother, and me
      Bombarded
      Godsfall and the spinoff Rise of the Demigods
      Mission to Zyxx
      Welcome to Night Vale
      Orbiting Human Circus of the Air
      The Adventure Zone

      Mostly DnD podcasts lol

    2. Jonah*

      Constantly! I love listening to horror podcasts that I can’t stand to listen to at home by myself. There are enough people around that I’m not jumpy or freaked out, and I delight in knowing how horrified they’d all be to hear what I’m actually listening to while I design posters and update our website. I also love a good audiobook. I use my Audible credits for really long (read: expensive) audiobooks. I’m currently working on The Stand–47 hours long! It should get me through a couple weeks.

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        I love audiobooks too! My Libby app was a lifesaver while training for my half. Those long runs get B-O-R-I-N-G once they start going over 2 hours. Favorite audiobook so far: Furiously Happy by Jenny Lawson.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I put my Hulu account on and listen to “Deadly Woman” episodes when I’m reconciling large accounts. I’ve lived my entire life where I don’t like much on tv that requires me to “watch” it, I prefer something I can listen to, follow along and maybe look up sometimes for a visual or two. I blame 20/20 and other investigative journalism, you rarely need to actually see a darn thing they’re talking about, they’re narrating the whole story after all!

      I also listen to childrens books because I’m stunted LOL. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and I have been bffs forever. I still listen to it in the car on long road trips when I’m tired of music.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Hah, I just mainlined all 9 collections of Forensic Files on Netflix because I love bad crime tv. It’s excellent background noise.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Ususlly it’s wordless music for me, or in a language I don’t know. Once in a while I go endless repeat with songs that I’ve heard so much they become background.
      And ambient sounds are my go-to to cover conversations in nearby cubicles (like noisli.com , or mynoise.net) .

  165. No Longer Assistant*

    I was recently offered a new job within the office I’ve been working in the last few years. It’s government and I’ve been working as an assistant through a contractor. My new job will be for the actual government office as one of the positions I’ve been assisting, and I’ll likely work for a team with one of my former colleagues acting as our assistant. Does anyone have any good advice for navigating this new role and the dynamic with the assistant, who will no longer be on the same level as me? The group of assistants have been very friendly and socialize outside the office, so some of us are pretty close.

    I’ll be taking a week off between jobs and trying to put together a slightly more professional wardrobe, but I’m not sure how else to prepare for such a big move within the same office and the same coworkers I’ve had for several years. I’m also afraid I might keep a tendency to stay quiet and not share my thoughts when I need to shine, or that I’ll perform “assistant” level tasks myself, since I know them so well and not give myself time to do the higher-level work.

    1. DinoGirl*

      This is a tough transition, both going from peer to manager, and also going from assistant and the expectation to just be a “yes person” to a more autonomous role…been there.
      I found part my growth was that I needed to realize I wouldn’t be doing my job (at least for my work/role) if I always said yes. My role was to provide counsel, so if I had a recommendation, I had to at least offer it, even if it might differ. There are polite and professional ways to do this. But don’t choke back things because you feel like this was your boss and you have to defer to them, because presumably you no longer do. I also realized I couldn’t always say “yes” to tasks or my workload became unmanageable. So while I always was good at prioritizing, I also had to learn that sometimes the answer to those I didn’t report had to just be no, I don’t have the ability to take this one right now. To those I reported to, sometimes as Allison has suggested on this blog, I have to say “Ok, would prefer I prioritize this over project B?” or “To be clear, this will mean project A gets pushed back probably by 3 weeks or so, just want to make sure that’s alright, otherwise we’ll need to consider how to delegate this project or project A to stay on track with both with the deadlines we’re discussing.” Things like that. Also don’t fall into being the defacto assistant just because you used to do that – if there is assistant work, you need to give that work to the assistant. It’s their job, and it’s not yours anymore. And don’t take it on from others, either…”Actually I no longer do ABC, but Amy will be happy to work with you on that!”

  166. Book Pony*

    Anyone have tips on getting through a long second stage interview (2+ hours)?

    It’s questions, then review of samples I submitted, then I have to give a presentation.

    Super nervous but also really excited! Nervicited!

    1. merp*

      It sounds like you already have, but try to get the schedule in advance! And then it’s just one thing at a time, each of those meetings. If they offer a break at some point (which I hope they do – water, bathroom, snack, etc), take it, even if you don’t need any of those specific things, just to go sit somewhere and not be “on” for a few minutes. Good luck!

    2. 867-5309*

      I’ve had 6- to 8-hour second interviews. Brutal.

      Merp offers excellent advice below: Take the breaks they give you. Also, bring your own water in a bottle so you have, maybe put a granola bar in your bag in case you feel your stomach rumble, and bring whatever you need to “refresh” on a bathroom break – for me it’s a small spray bottle of toner, travel toothbrush and my favorite lipbalm.

  167. Anon for job searching*

    I’m looking for a new job. Last late spring or so, I talked to a former colleague at XYZ org for other reasons and asked offhand if they might be hiring (though I say former colleague, I did not previously work for and leave XYZ). The answer was probably soon, but not now, maybe an update later in the summer. September came without hearing anything, so I emailed and got no response, but soon thereafter saw the position officially posted. I contacted the listed person and found out that my disappearing person was out on leave for personal reasons. They would be happy to have an initial phone call and accept an application. Application in, radio silence resumed. Two months later, they invited me for an interview which was set up another two months down the road and is coming up. The semi-academic nature and a warning at the beginning both mean I’m not completely surprised things are going so slowly.

    The plot thickened recently, though, when ABC corp called to recruit me to a very similar position. This one sounds promising too.

    I’m struggling with what, if anything, I owe in extra consideration to XYZ, since I initially approached them and if the extended timeline changes that at all. (Assume the cities involved are both equally desirable to me in any advice.)

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Alison says you don’t have a job until you actually have an offer in hand.

      There’s also an expression “you snooze, you lose”. If XYZ wants to take a nap right now, that’s on them not on you. Go check out ABC.

    2. tape deck*

      I don’t think you owe XYZ anything. Losing candidates to other opportunities is a risk you take when your hiring process takes so long; it would be unreasonable for them to expect you to wait for them. I don’t see how you asking about a position you had heard about turns into any obligation on your end.

  168. sadbutnotbad*

    Anyone come out as nonbinary at work? How’d that go? Contemplating if I want to take that leap or accept my professional identity will just be different from my private/personal life identity.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I haven’t because I’m not.

      But I have had a friend who has and it’s gone pretty good for them. However they didn’t come out at work…they just made it clear when they started a new job. But our previous job was full of dysfunctional awful crap so they kept it to private for self preservation given that the energy was being spent in so many other ways.

      Have you thought to come out to anyone you’re particularly close with? My friend came out to me personally before making it known to everyone else. I’ve always been a vocal ally so they just knew it was not even a thing. When they came out to me as nonbinary, it was literally the only time I ever “came out” to anyone as demi/bi myself. So you could possibly look for a safe space first to get your feelers out there.

      1. Also wondering*

        A few friends know, but I live in one of the states that’s working on anti-trans health care laws, so I doubt I’m moving on from just contemplating any time soon. I’m trying to move for that and several other reasons, so maybe will eventually be able to do what your friend did.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I’m a bit of a toad, I don’t come out to anyone in particular. So I often just speak vocally about things and flush out the bigots that way. They have no idea I’m not just “one of them”. So I’m not sure if that’s also a way you can approach it either…like just casually trying to engage in conversation about how they react towards even the subject.

          I hate how it’s still this huge divide, even within the community about everyone’s individuality. There’s a lot of transphobia among people who are fighting against homophobia. So it’s not like you can even feel safe if you have others within the LGBTQ+ world, since for years even the L & the Gs are awful to each other *Face desk*

    3. Book Pony*

      I did!

      And it’s one of the reasons I’m looking for a new job.

      I think it would’ve gone over better at my old job than my current one, but I will say there is one person who’s cool with it, so I guess it depends on your sense of the person you’re going to tell.

  169. Student Affairs Sally*

    I recently re-applied for a job that I turned down 2 years ago. At the time, I really wanted to take the job (it’s more in line with my long-term career goals than my current role, and it’s also on the coast, which has been a lifelong dream); I only turned it down because my financial situation at the time would have made relocating extremely challenging, especially for a bit of a pay cut. I’m now in a situation where moving across the country is much more doable, so I was extremely excited when I saw the same position posted again. In my cover letter, I addressed the fact that I was offered the position previously and only turned it down because it wasn’t the right time to move, but that my situation has changed while my interest in this role has not. They also presumably have a record of my previous candidacy.

    Yesterday, I was contacted to schedule a phone interview, and I’m very excited that they’re still interested in me after I turned them down before. However, I have no idea what to expect from an interview in this situation. If it matters, the HR person that emailed me yesterday is not the person I interacted with 2 years ago. Last time, the overall process was a phone interview with HR followed by them flying me out for an on-campus interview with the hiring manager and rest of the office staff. Should I expect the same type of process now? Will the questions likely be similar, or very different? Are there specific types of questions I should ask at this point? I was planning to ask if the role has changed significantly in the last 2 years, but I’m not sure what else to ask because I already feel like I know so much about the position! Also, is it okay to ask about salary on a phone interview when it’s not (technically) my first interview? Last time, it would have been a slight pay cut, which I’m fine with now – but I’m also making $4G more than I was making back then, so the pay cut may be more significant than it was back then.

    1. DinoGirl*

      Generally if everything was handled professionally, a solid candidate wouldn’t be at a deficit for having “turned them down” before. It’s great you got a phone interview, congratulations!
      In higher ed, processes are not very nimble, so while it’s not impossible the process will have changed, it may still be similar. But I would take it one step at a time. The questions will likely have changed, with new committee members being involved in the search.
      I would not ask if the role has change significantly in 2 years. If you note certain differences that are striking to you, you can ask about rationale for those changes.
      I think it’s fair to ask their proposed salary range, but they won’t be prepared to negotiate salaries with you in detail at this juncture.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      OMG! I cannot imagine the stress of waiting for that kind of news. Sending good energy that way. I’m the weirdo vibes girl, feel free to deflect them if they aren’t your thing, I won’t be offended ;)

      Good luck!!!!

      1. Academic Promotion is the 8th circle of Hell*

        Thank you The Man, Becky Lynch. I have been on AAM and interested in all permutations of hr and management.
        The academic world is foreign to me. I jumped to an R1. Went up early for tenure and associate, then went up early for full.
        I would have asked for vibes if I had thought of it.
        Thank you for understanding. Hugging the energy.
        Could hear in the next two weeks.

    3. Plus Ultra*

      Good luck. I was denied full professor this year by .07 of a point, thanks to a new promotion system. And that was after my department chair really pushed for me to go up when I wasn’t 100% ready. Turns out, she wanted to go up for full professor as well and didn’t want it to look weird since I have one year seniority on her. Academia is the 8th circle of hell.

      1. Academic Promotion is the 8th circle of Hell*

        Points! There are points? What a year. We only have to publish, give local and national service. Have an international reputation. Oh, and a significant impact on the field. 6 to 7 letters of recommendation for promotion from peer institutions or above. oh and teach and mentor.
        There are very few fulls in my specialty here and I did go up early. My chair was discouraging but turned around when I completed my dossier. I know that denial is not the end of the world and I can go up again but as you know the whole process is exhausting and mentally draining. Thanks for the good luck. There are lots of blogs and articles on going up for tenure but I haven’t found much on going up for full.

  171. Not So NewReader*

    Someone asked me a grant writing question and I have no idea how this is handled with ethics in mind.

    This is an example of the question:

    An NPO has a small construction project that could run between $5k and $6k, the cost could fluctuate because of unforeseens. The grantor has NO problem funding full projects, whatever that cost maybe. (This is not a matching grant.) However, they want to know the cost upfront. The NPO cannot know the actual cost until walls are torn apart or floors are torn up, etc., because they have no idea what problems will be encountered as they go down through the layers.

    The grant requires several bids.

    The NPO needs full funding or it cannot do the project. Any costs overruns would cause a hardship for the little NPO.

    How does the NPO get the contractors to make an attempt to factor in reasonable unforeseens to prevent cost overruns?

    This seems to me like something that can get unethical quickly, although the intent is coming from a good place to support this little NPO and keep it afloat.

    How do people handle this?

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      This is not my area at all, but is it possible to request the higher amount with a budget line item marked for “issues” or “unforeseen incidentals” or whatever else, then state elsewhere – in the event money left over after the construction, overages will be used for X?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Unused overages would be a good thing for the NPO to ask about. Suppose the job is finished at $5,500. How does the grantor want us to handle the leftover $500, if the grant was $6k.

        Part of the problem is that other NPOs in the same arena just cover the unforeseens out of pocket. Which this little NPO would do, too, if it was possible. So there is that added awkwardness that no one else seems to have a similar concern.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      I haven’t done construction, but there’s a project management concept of management reserve in projects to cover those unexpected things. I don’t what would be considered standard for a construction project of this type, but it could be something like an extra 10% over the expected price – usually described as a percentage of cost. I would look into what’s normal management reserve for a construction project of this type and add it to the bid.

      Not so much the construction company who might be giving you a low price bid, but % over that in case you need fund something additional.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Okay this is helpful.
        The problem is the contractor has to put it on the bid themselves, I think.

        They drag their heels at doing this because this may throw them off from having low bid and getting the job.

        The NPO could check with the grantor to see if they can have a line for reserves to handle unforeseens. That would be good.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Since my job deals with engineering and construction contracts, I know what to do here, but not so much at this scale.

          The way that makes the most sense to me is that the grantor carries a management reserve. The bidder may have some contingency in their number, but that’s their contingency. Then, build something into the project that they refresh their number once they open up the floors and walls. If it’s within the contingency, move forward. If it’s not, then reduce the scope of the project to keep it under the budget. You can also manage the job by having them submit labor hours and expenses weekly and check it against their budget. (Will a contractor this size do that. . .I don’t know.) The idea would be that they said the flooring budget was $1,000 and they spent $1,200. You’ll find out on day 5 instead of letting them finish the job and submit a final invoice. You would take that out of management reserve or have to adjust the budget for something else, but it won’t be too late.

          The main problems I see here are that you’ll be lucky to get someone to show up to do the work who understands project management and budgeting, and that the risk is all on the NPO. Another thing you may be able to agree upon with the grantor is to allow the management reserve to be a bonus to the GC if they don’t use it. They can manage their costs better and make more margin, but still meet what your grantor expects to spend. Otherwise, there is no incentive for them because they will need to get paid cost plus even if they go over budget–it’s not a fixed price contract.

          The NPO also has to manage changes. People can’t be walking around saying, “Oh, add an outlet here, and could we have another light over there.” That’s money. You do not want to give the contractor a chance to write a change order.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Thank you and thanks everyone for all your inputs.

            Fortunately, the NPO uses a point of contact person, everyone goes to that person THEN the point of contact person goes to the contractor. Because, yeah, too many bosses. So the NPO is good about using a funnel system for communicating. Unfortunately that point person can get very stressed out. But they manage.

            Understanding project management and budgeting- yeah. I see this point also. And they also have to understand to PICK UP THE PHONE. grr. If there is a problem don’t keep working without checking in. crimmers. The NPO does face a problem getting contractors because they don’t want the small jobs. That is when the NPO learned that $20k is SMALL. sigh.

            So what script would you use if you wanted a bidder to add a contingency to their bid for unforeseens? Is there any specific thing one should be concerned about when asking this? The NPO does not want to say/do anything shady, but they have a rock/hard place going on. I was thinking they could say, “We are asking all bidders to show a percentage for contingencies as the building is over 200 years old and could have unforeseen problems once walls or floors are opened up.”
            What do you suggest?

            And… is it poor form to ask the grantor how overruns are handled? I am thinking “yes” merely because I had to ask the question.

            1. Ranon*

              If you want the bids to be equally comparable, you can just have all the bidders add a flat dollar allowance called “contingency” to their bids. Say 1k. Then the money is in the contract and can be spent as needed and everyone’s still bidding the same thing.
              I agree that it makes more sense for you all to carry the contingency than the contractor- is there no way to say “project hard costs are “x”, contingency is “y”?” All the grant funded projects I’ve ever worked on as an architect have required contingencies because there’s always something and the grantors want the projects finished too.

    3. Kathenus*

      I agree with other comments about having a base price and % contingency for unexpected expenses or cost overruns. More specifically on your question about how to both make sure to have enough to cover the actual project but what happens if money is leftover, almost every project I’ve been involved with has ‘extras’ that can be added if money is leftover. So if you’re asking for $6000 and the project ends up costing $5500, could there be a line item in the grant budget that states something like ‘any remaining funds will be used for extra windows, desk furnishings, towards a sprinkler system, towards installation of utilities, or whatever makes sense.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Am chuckling. From the sounds of it they will have no problem finding extras, EVER. ha!

        Thank you!

        If you can think of any thing else they should be considering, please let me know. I will be checking back a couple times over the weekend.

  172. J*

    I’ve been offered a promotion. I would be switching from non-exempt to exempt, adding in additional travel (probably 1-4 days a month), and it’s an administrator role, though non-managerial at this point. I’m at the top of my current salary classification thanks to generous raises in the past and this new role is 3 steps above my current role but in a slightly different team so I feel like they are somewhat discounting my current salary. I’m having a hard time judging what I think would be an appropriate base salary for me. Right now they’re offering a $10k increase (15% bump) which is very tempting but I don’t know if I’m fully counting all of the variables at play here. How would you try to calculate both an appropriate promotion offer and an appropriate amount to compensate for a change in exempt status?

    1. 867-5309*

      A 15% bump is substantial, especially moving from one role to another inside the same organization. Is the increase base against base or base+ overtime against base? Will your hours, except for the travel, generally stay the same?

      1. J*

        Good questions! I will lose probably a $750/year from overtime so it’s not a ton. I will be expected to do more evening dinners/happy hours/events and check email at night but there’s rarely an after hours crisis so I feel better laying it out that way. I actually just went to read the handbook for official policies and it looks like I’m encouraged to only schedule my travel during business hours. I work with lawyers so their expectations is what I was basing mine off of and it seems I likely should abide by the manual. I think proactively I’ll confirm that with my boss and decide from there if I need to counter. I think maybe this is a place where they pay isn’t the issue so much as expectations. My current job involved a lot of changes without recognition and now I’m getting the recognition and I’m trying to use pay as the buffer on expectations rather than just set appropriate rules at the beginning. I often struggle to get to take my full PTO and I think seeking confirmation now that I can bundle it with some of these trips could be what I need to feel like I can do this. Lots of word vomit here but I think your very fact-based comment helped me to map out where my nervous energy was coming from.

    2. Kathenus*

      I’d ask if there’s a salary band or salary range for the position and where the starting salary fits into that range/band.

  173. Moop*

    If an employee appears dissatisfied with their job, at what point is it your business as a manager to bring it up?

    I get the sense that Mary, my direct report and 2IC, is deeply unhappy with work. Her productivity has slipped dramatically but she doesn’t acknowledge that when I raised it. Nowadays it’s only just meeting minimally acceptable. Which is odd because Mary has consistently been a top performer.

    Mary has to start and finish work one hour earlier due to operational reasons. In the recent weeks she began complaining vociferously about this, even pestering another employee to swap shifts with her to the extent the other person came to me in tears. (Mary apologised later).

    Mary also asked me not to put her down for overtime during a busy period. Our team works paid overtime only occasionally (like once every few months). It isn’t outrageous to request not doing overtime but again it seems so unlike Mary to complain when she knew how busy the team was.

    I would ideally like to address Mary’s concerns and try to keep her; but when I attempt to talk to her she says things are fine.

    Am I unreasonable to see these issues as problematic for a 2IC?

    1. IT But I Can't Fix Your Printer*

      She may be deeply upset about something completely unrelated to her job, and it’s affecting her work – maybe a family or medical situation that requires more time at home right now. I would focus on the impacts that you’re seeing, rather than the possible causes. If it’s fine for her work to be “minimally acceptable” and you don’t see any further problems like her complaining about her shift, then maybe you can just let it go – not everyone has to be a superstar all the time, and if she asks for perks that you would have given her back when she was doing better you can say ‘I would need to see more consistency in XYZ for that’. As a consistent top performer in the past, I would hope she has earned some time to be ‘just okay’ while she deal with whatever personal stuff she needs to.

      1. Moop*

        She’s been like this for several months now though. I didn’t add all the other details but she definitely seems unhappy about work specifically. If I had to guess I think she’s been working here a long while, is feeling bored and ready to move on, but due to various external factors she would find it difficult to move elsewhere.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      It sounds like Mary is dealing with something that’s very difficult for her. That could be family, health, whatever. Doesn’t have to be work. Just because she’s traditionally been 150% doesn’t make 100% bad – so be careful not to think that way.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      She’s your Second In Command?

      This is a substantial problem- big drop in productivity, complaining, reducing a cohort to tears, refusing OT when she used to do it, yet there is no problem? Yeah, right. This needed to be brought up a while ago.

      I think Alison would say that you gave her a chance to talk things over with you. Now it’s gloves off and go point by point informing her of what you need her to do. If there is no problem then she can meet goals, be pleasant and do her share of the OT, this is fairly straightforward. You can restate, “You are telling me there is no problem here, so I expect you to carry on as you always have. Now, if I am misunderstanding something here, I am very open to talking about any concern.”

      You may find it helpful to review her job description and review some of her previous evaluations to get things squared away in your mind what you want to say and how you want to say it.

        1. andy*

          Question: does her being top performer in the past means that she had more overtimes then others? Was there specific reason why she had to be the one who starts and ends an hour sooner or was it “reward” because she was top performer? Her complains about shifts – is she asking for special extras others dont have or rather to have the same things as others have?

          I am asking, because I have seen top performers burn out and get resentful multiple times already. Which may or may not be her case. They stay long, put really everything into work, but then they are tired and there is price in their personal lives. And when they are tired and want to ease the load and more fair split of duties, they are treated as having attitude problem.

    4. DinoGirl*

      No, it’s perfectly reasonable to note what you’re observing. I would focus on observable things – your productivity has slipped, based on a,b,c, you’re vocalizing a lot of complaints about shifts and making demands about swaps that make people uncomfortable, and have refused overtime, which isn’t her norm. “How are you? I’m concerned.” See what they say.
      If you just continue to be stonewalled, I would change this to “I’m observing XYZ, and you haven’t really provided me any explanation for this. I consider X and Y to be performance issues, so I’ll have to handle these formally through the performance processes moving forward.”

    5. Kathenus*

      As someone who has been a top performer, I think the approach should cover both observable performance issues such as the dramatic productivity decline balanced with (genuine and sincere) concern. I agree with the other commenters that it sure sounds like Mary is dealing with something in her personal life that’s affecting her significantly. She may not want to talk about it with you, or at work in general. But you can let her know 1) you care about her and are concerned, 2) she’s been a top performer and a valuable employee, 3) what performance goals need to be met, and 4) to please let you know if there’s any support you can offer to help her meet them.

      I think someone who has been high performing has earned the benefit of the doubt. That doesn’t mean dismiss poor performance, although if you can reduce expectations short-term that might be a kindness. It’s kinder to be clear what performance is needed and how she needs to improve to meet these standards, but to also show compassion and openness to trying to help her succeed (within reason) and that you are available if she needs support (whether that be talking about what’s happening – only if she wants to, or in some kind of temporary accommodations or changes to help her deal with whatever’s going on)

    6. WellRed*

      I’m unclear on the hours. Did her hours change or has she always been on an hour earlier schedule? If it’s a change, is that at the heart of all this strife and angst?

      1. Moop*

        She has always been on the same hours from the start of her employment. She still works the same 8 hours as everyone else, but needs to come earlier. This was explained during recruitment even before she was hired. It’s not going to change.

        I think the unhappiness about the hours is related to her overall unhappiness at work. She definitely has issues; I just don’t know what exactly.

    7. Moop*

      Thanks for the suggestions above. It’s helpful to have my concerns validated along with the practical suggestions.

      When I initially spoke to her about her drop in performance she made excuses (which made no sense) and then denied there was any problem. Despite me having the numbers right in front of her. Then she became upset, saying she put in a lot of effort and why was that not enough. I ended up being the bad guy explaining that when you are the lowest performer in the team by a long mile, unfortunately we can’t assess you on effort alone.

      I sat down with Mary to come up with some goals. These were realistic and totally achievable; but the fact that I set up these targets for her made her upset. “Why do I have set targets and no one else?” Er…because you’re the only person in the team who isn’t performing?

      Even if there was a valid context behind her changes (personal stress, work issues, etc) the difficult thing is I still need her to improve her attitude and her work. I’m finding it hard to get through to her when she’s flatly denying there is a problem. If I can’t get her to acknowledge that her productivity is low with actual figures and data – how can I get her to acknowledge the less tangible things, like her poor attitude? I feel like I’m hitting my head against a brick wall.

      1. Auntie Social*

        It sounds to me, esp from her insistence on no OT, that she has a second job that is getting most of her attention.

      2. WellRed*

        You don’t actually have to get her to agree! You’ve got some objective tangibles she’s not hitting and some softer intangibles you’ve observed. Once you’ve made this clear, treat it like anything else where they aren’t doing the job, however that looks. pIP? Transition plan to move them out? She doesn’t get to argue with you that she disagrees. Loop in your manager and HR.

        1. WellRed*

          I mean if we could all argue our boss us wrong, none of us need be held accountable and we could name our salary.

      3. Tabby Baltimore*

        I think a regular commenter, NWMossy, who posted some comments to a March 2019 letter, has some solid observations that I hope you will consider internalizing and implementing the next time you raise Mary’s workplace behaviors with her, and get a defensive reaction (The boldfacing and italics are all mine. I’ll put the URL for NWM’s post in a follow-on reply):

        I’ve learned that when you have directs who don’t take negative feedback well, you really have two problems: whatever caused the negative feedback in the first place, and their response. In the end, the latter ends up being far more important than the former, because it throws up huge roadblocks to growth and improvement in almost every area.

        This is the time for blunt, unwavering, consistent expectation-setting. A brief explanation of the issue, what you expect to be done, and adherence checks to make sure it’s getting done. You are not inviting debate, but informing of a decision. …

        Once you’ve delivered your statement of what the standards are, ask for her agreement to meet those standards going forward. This is ultimately what you want to take out of the conversation – a commitment from her to change. When she attempts to deflect the conversation into anything other than delivering a yes or no answer to your request for commitment, steer her back. Be prepared to repeat yourself gently but firmly: “Nevertheless, can you commit to changing this?” It’s also completely OK to just not talk very much – it will give her less to grasp and argue, which can help her run out of steam sooner.

        Assuming you get a yes (because most people will say yes out of optimism about themselves if nothing else), then you start to lay out specifics – Alison’s answer has lots of good phrasing for that. I’ll also add that you can ask her to develop plans for what she’ll do differently and present them to you first, which can be super-effective in understanding how well your message is getting through. If she gives back a detailed, measurable plan that shows good insight and self-reflection, great! If she gives back a weak-tea list of vague generalities and no measures, you can rightly mark that down as not demonstrating progress towards the necessary changes.

  174. Lola is sad*

    I think my boss lied to me…

    there were no raises this year, but I asked my boss to put in to review my salary grade and salary level for external equity as I’ve been taking on a lot. During that conversation, my boss compared my salary based on the position that reports to me, and I’ve been getting that kind of subtext off her for a while – that she considers me a senior analyst rather than manager of analysis and reporting (which is my title) and I have a sen. analyst that reports to me, as well as an analyst and research assoc. – research assoc. has a data coordinator that reports to him. I have had a direct conversation about this ‘subtext’ where I assert my understanding of my title and position, and she declines to tell me I’m not.

    So – I don’t know my salary grade – and I’m concerned it is for sen. analyst rather than manager but I don’t know. So asked for review. Boss told me that she brought it up with *big boss* and he said no to the review.
    But big boss said in departmental meeting that although there were no raise, pay equity issues were investigated and some had their salary adjusted.

    I think boss lied to me and I’m wondering if I should ask big boss about this. I feel like that might be extreme, but with all the other things going on – I don’t know if I can stay in this position without knowing what is going on here – if boss really lied about this. Also – noticing on pay stub, my title is just analyst. (inwardly, I’m WTF is going on….) I’m worried about how to look for another manager job is that is what will come up on employment verification. My offer letter said manager, but now I’m not sure. If they just did routine equity – I was compared to analyst, not even sen. analyst.

    where did I start untangling this mess?

    1. Annony*

      Do you have HR? I would clarify with them what your title is and if it is not what is in your offer letter, ask them why. You can also bring up that your salary was compared to analyst in the routine equity and ask them to redo it with the proper title.

      2. Lola is sad*

        so – hopefully – can get the title clarified via HR.

        Any suggestions on if I should talk with big boss to find out what is going on? I specifically asked my boss to advocate for me, and she said she did and big boss said no, but then big boss said that it was done for everyone….

        I feel like if this was really a lie there is a lot going on under the surface and that I really need to leave.

        Are there any other opinions about this?

        1. WellRed*

          I agree to go to HR first for clarification on your title and salary grade. If there’s an error, that should take care of it if your company is halfway decent.

          1. valentine*

            It’s weird that they’re secretive about it. Why bother offering if they’re going to lie?

            Your boss sounds like she finds you threatening and wants to keep you down.

            You can email grand boss (and possibly cc your boss; bonus if she put any of this in writing and you can forward it) saying you’d like him to reconsider a review for you. He may talk to your boss first, to ask what on Earth you’re on about. Maybe an in-person meeting (assuming he wouldn’t secretly invite your boss or you could advocate for yourself if she gaslights you during same, saying you never said anything to her and she never said he said no) is better?

    2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      Oh I feel you on this one. I worked somewhere where we had to use different paycodes/payrates for specific tasks. So if I was cleaning the llama barn, I’d get one pay rate, and if I was training llamas I’d get another pay rate, and if I was working with a private llama training client I’d get a third pay rate.

      What this resulted in, was a ton of people being told, “OK, you’re now Barn Director, that pays the same as if you were doing a private llama training so just use that paycode on your timesheet going forward.”

      I have no idea how this is going to come back on a reference check, if someone calls HR instead of my former supervisor (who would be able to clarify that this was the case.)

  175. Em from CT*

    Nitty-gritty first-time-manager question.

    I have a staff who just returned from a long leave of absence who I’ve never worked with before. In order to get a sense of his capabilities, I gave him what I thought was a good assignment: a research and analysis project (since he’s in a research and analysis position) that required writing (his main self-professed interest). I outlined the assignment in a long phone call, and then immediately outlined my expectations in an email: the research question I wanted him to investigate, several resources he could turn to as a starting point, the way his research would fit into the larger picture of what our dept. works on, and–crucially–a series of precisely-described deliverables, with a deadline.

    What I got back was… disappointing. I’d asked for a “clear and concise set of bullet point recommendations” and got instead five pages of research notes with a one-page introductory text. In order to make sure I’d been clear in my expectations, I forwarded my original email to a colleague, and asked for her feedback: was I clear enough? Did I give him enough information? What would she have expected from a staffer in his role if she’d make a request like this? And my colleague confirmed that she thought the fault was not in my expectations.

    So–tl;dr–what do I do now? It feels very strange to go back to him and say, clearly: “Wakeen, you didn’t give me what I was looking for. I’d like to see a one-page document that contains X, Y, and Z, and instead you delivered A, B, C; please revise and get this back to me by Date.”

    But is that really what a good manager would do? (I should note, I’ve never really had a great manager, myself–most managers I’ve had have never been good at articulating their expectations, and have been fairly hands-off.) It’s just a very strange feeling to be that clear with someone, especially since I’m a woman in my 30s and he’s a man in his 60s.

    But I suspect, from reading this blog, that my job is to get him to deliver what I need so that I can do my job for my company, right? And so strange as it feels, this is the job. Right? Wrong? Anything I’m missing?

    1. Annony*

      I think you are right. A good manager gives honest and direct feedback. He did not give you what you asked for. He may think that he went above and beyond. You asked for one page and he gave you five! He needs to hear that no you actually need a maximum of one page.

    2. IT But I Can't Fix Your Printer*

      Yep, that’s your job. And it’s possible that in the past he hasn’t had great managers either – maybe ones who asked for bullet points but actually wanted a narrative, or whatever – so I think you should just matter-of-factly ask him to revise and see what happens. Maybe he’ll come back with exactly what you asked for from now on, and maybe he’ll get defensive or still not follow your directions the second time or who knows what. Either way, you’ll get helpful information on what to do next.

    3. DinoGirl*

      Determine if it’s a matter of whether he could not deliver or would not deliver what you needed (e.g. is this a coaching or a counseling discussion?).
      I don’t think asking a colleague if they found a communication clear helps ascertain whether the employee you assigned it to felt it was clear, either. If you assigned him a writing task, because he likes writing, and he wrote more than you wanted, there might be a communication issue there.
      Also make sure you’re not subconsciously holding his “long leave of absence” against him…it’s hard not to sometimes, but you really do also need to give him a fresh start.
      Start with a conversation to seek to understand where the wires may have been crossed and go from there.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      He might be used to passing in some random notes, maybe the previous boss was fine with that.

      He’s back from leave, a long leave. So there is probably a reset period after being away so long.

      Pass it back to him, give your instructions again and ask him to fix it.
      It might sound lame but I made it my habit to avoid the use of the word “you” as often as possible. This seemed to help keep things from escalating. I guess the lack of the word “you” makes things more “hear-able”?

      Perhaps you can go with something like: “Hi, Wakeen, What we need here is a one page document with bullet points. Please shorten this to one page with A, B and C, and use bullet points. I need it back by X date. Thanks.”

      You may want to consider that the long phone call was a huge information dump to him OR reiteration of what he already knew OR something else. If you did most of the talking you probably were not able to glean too much about him. If you can, read his resume and perhaps some of his previous evaluations maybe you can get an idea of where things are at for him. This would help you get oriented to his work results.

    5. Jedi Squirrel*

      Your response is good. You already told him what you expected (clearly, and both verbally and in an email), so I would just reiterate that to him: “Wakeen, you didn’t give me what I was looking for. I’d like to see a one-page document that contains X, Y, and Z, and instead you delivered A, B, C; please revise and get this back to me by Date.”

      But I might change “you didn’t give me what I was looking for” to “this is not what was outlined during our phone conversation and in my follow-up email”. He is likely to be less defensive this way.

    6. Buttons*

      “Wakeen, you didn’t give me what I was looking for. I’d like to see a one-page document that contains X, Y, and Z, and instead you delivered A, B, C; please revise and get this back to me by Date.”

      This is exactly what you do. And going forward I wouldn’t wait until the end to get everything. I would do weekly check-ins so you can catch things before they get off track.

    7. Kathenus*

      This has been alluded to, but since he’s coming back from a long absence and you two haven’t worked together before, I’d take this as a data point to start a conversation on syncing communication styles with him. Sit down and have a conversation using this assignment as an example. Here’s what you needed and the instructions, here’s how the finished product differed from what you expected, is there a disconnect between you, what’s the best way to be on the same page next time, etc. If this continues, then a more hard line approach, but I’d not come down hard this time without the benefit of trying to work through why it occurred to improve it for the future as the first step.

  176. Out of ideas*

    I need some advice about how to deal with my boss. I work at a small company -as in, it is just us two in the office. The other remote coworker is very close with the boss so I don’t trust asking them for advice often. My boss and I can go days where we only say a few things to each other all day. I’ve been here a few years now and honestly I am sure my boss does not like me. Our personalities do not match. They can be cold, petty, and patronizing. I don’t know how to tell them how I feel without it coming across as an attack to them, when I don’t feel like I can even defend myself. I know it’s a small place so it’s a bit of a more casual relationship than if we were at a bigger company, but I don’t think being completely honest will be very professional (plus I am likely to cry). We’ve had some talks before and things will be okay for a while but then it goes back to tension eventually. They get tense, then I get tense, and it goes in circles. I don’t need to be their friend, I just want them to realize how their actions influence me, and to maybe realize I’m not so bad. I am proud of my work and like what I do but am spending too much time being anxious and distracted by this, and am feeling like the only option at this point is to leave. So, how do you imply/say things like ‘you make me feel stupid,’ ‘I can tell you don’t like me,’ ‘I am trying my best,’ ‘I can’t stand up for myself without you getting defensive’ etc in a better way?

    1. fposte*

      I’m sorry; that sounds really stressful. I’m not sure any of those are useful messages for a boss, though–these are more personal relationship things–and I’m not sure you can make them improve their opinion of you by asking them to. It also sounds like your boss pretty consistently behaves in this way and reverts to it even after a discussion about it. I’m usually a fan of working things out, but I think what you’re hoping for is a fundamental change in your boss and maybe your boss’s view of you, and that’s not usually something you can make happen on your own, so I think looking elsewhere really is likely to be the best thing for you.

      1. Thanks*

        Thank you. Yeah, there’s nothing I can do about it if it is just purely they don’t like me. I feel like I work hard and mind my own business. Looking for something else is really scary but I agree, it does seem like it’s time.

    2. Buttons*

      You have to say specifically what they are doing. It can’t just be a feeling. “you make me feel stupid” is not helpful. What is helpful is “when you respond like that to a simple mistake it comes more harshly then I think you intend.”
      “Boss, I would like us to strengthen our working relationship (or learn more about X), would you be open to having a standing 1:1 coaching session every couple of weeks? ”
      “I am really proud of X, do you have any feedback” (this is instead of “I am trying my best”)
      Defensive- “I feel like when I explain the situation is being perceived as an attack (or me disagreeing with you) and that causes you to get defensive. What is a better way for us to communicate about X”

      It likely isn’t personal, but instead, a difference in communication preferences.
      You may even suggest going online and taking the free Tracom Communication Style test to better understand your communication styles and help you see that each of you is likely coming from a positive place, but are perceiving it differently because of your communication styles.

  177. trash panda*

    I’m in the running for a couple of positions. This past Monday, I received a verbal offer from one company and reach out to the other to let them know (especially as they are my first choice). My recruiter from the second company responded very quickly and let me know she’d look into the I’ve yet to receive a written offer from the first company or an update on the job status of the second company.

    Should I reach out to the recruiter at the second company again? Or wait until Monday?

    1. 867-5309*

      I’d wait until you have the written offer to follow-up. You can ask for a week to look it over, which gives company 2 a chance to light a fire under their process, if it’s something they want to do.

  178. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I hate the combination of government and technology. It’s always so frigging rinkydink and cobbled together because they’re cheap AF [which you’d say “yay don’t waste our tax dollars” only no, the tax dollars being poured into fixing their crappy glitchy systems are probably just as painful as if they paid for decent stuff up front].

    I’ve been trying to submit our quarterly city taxes this entire week and they’ve had a notice up all “sorry we’re experiencing issues, we’re trying to fix them…call your local office for how to file if we can’t get this up and running in time, blah.” and now they’re down for good at least, so people aren’t logging in trying to check in every so often. JFC it should never be this hard to give the city their GD chunk of money they want for us to simply exist in these city limits…

    I’ve also had a heckuva time with another state’s DOR to report sales tax, so this is compounding and I’m EXTRA on a Friday. It’s Friday…I shouldn’t be this pissy!!!!!! *rawr*

    1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      As a government employee who is still handwriting receipts for public fees in the year 2020, I feel you!

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I told my brother to “write them a check” when he was trying to figure out how to get cash together randomly for a DMV visit. He was like “What, they don’t take checks, nobody takes checks.”

        “Bro. It’s the DMV, they take checks. They only started taking cards like 3 years ago, I’m not shitting you!”

        1. whistle*

          Yep! And at my DMV you have to pay extra to use a card but not to pay with a check! Going to the DMV is the one time my checkbook leaves the house.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            They charge 2.5% extra to pay your taxes with a debit card.

            The city wanted to charge that extra fee for a 10k permit as well ahhahahahah HERES A CHECK. [But it’s a business, so we clearly write checks a little more than an average citizen.]

            I use my checkbook out of spite more than I use it for anything else. My car loan is through a crappy credit union who won’t let me set up auto pay without a lot of BS. So I was like “Fine, here’s a check.”

          2. Not So NewReader*

            NYS has decided to pass the cost of processing credit cards on to the card holder. The state won’t absorb that cost anymore. So you pay your fine/tax/whatever and then you pay the CC processing fee.

            BUT heaven forbid, a retail establishment should pass the CC fee on to the customer, noooo that is illegal. So they deduct for paying in cash.

            Consistently is not a strong suit here. And in many cases, it’s missing entirely.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              It’s not illegal anymore to pass along the fee on a retail purchases…I’m not sure where that idea comes from. They just often make it a “cheaper fee” to reduce the cash price because most people get rip roaring angry when they see an extra 3% tacked on for the card useage.

              There’s also never been anything illegal about it, it’s just the credit card company’s policy.

              Just about all states have had this going on over here for years. I paid a ticket with my credit card like 5 years ago and it had a giant extra processing fee.

              I have to pay our city taxes using their stupid jerkass system and it’s $5 for the privilege of not getting a bigger fee by not doing it electronically.

              1. just an office worker*

                Its actually illegal in multiple states. Don’t know where you got your info but its wrong.

            2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Note* Also landlords do this additional processing fee transferred to the user as well!

    2. Em from CT*

      As someone who works in government tech… I hear you. It’s hard. In my experience, govt. isn’t very good at tech–not that individual people aren’t very excellent, or that the departments aren’t doing their best–but rather that technology procurement is really, really hard. We can’t just go out and buy whatever product is on the market: because we’re government, we do competitive bids, which means we have to write up really long RFPs outlining what we need, and how, and why–and after having done that a couple of times, I can say it’s really hard.

      So… I hear ya! Not that it helps, much, but we’re just as frustrated as you on the other side of the coin.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Oh for real, I don’t blame the actual techies at all. I know they’re doing what they can with the scraps they’re given. It’s just the most painful thing to see, I know you’re basically given some rocks and sticks and told to make them into a user friendly platform and don’t’ you dare ask for any glue.

        Just like I don’t blame the lovely folks at the DMV for the wait time. I know you’re all doing your best and have to do a million things the long way.

        Reason 23 why my life motto is “I don’t go anywhere in a hurry.” If I need to work with someone for anything, a registration or otherwise, I’m on their time, not mine. I plan accordingly. I only make the rules for me and anyone who gives me money to make the rules for them!

    3. Not Today Satan*

      Government agencies and their GIGANTIC (file size-wise) locked spreadsheets are the bane of my existence. I want to know wtf they have in there to even make them so big.

    4. emmelemm*

      It’s crazy. I have to deal adjacently with government tech and it just leaves you shaking your head.

    5. LunaMei*

      I work at a state university in the IT dept, and it’s a similar situation. Random shit patched together, no one documents anything, the only people who can fix stuff have been here for 20+ years and DGAF, and complain anytime someone tries to document it.

      The thing that really irks me is how higher-ups are just constantly purchasing tools but not taking the time to truly evaluate their business processes to see if it’s a good idea, or if they have the necessary resources or skill sets to implement. Then they just toss it to the nearest team and expect us to all be experts in implementing random software/hardware that we’re not trained in. My former dept (IT-adjacent) was horrible about this, and one of the reasons I left.

      I’m now in IT proper, and with our current CIO, they are making strides in improving things, so we don’t have so much waste and frustration. It’s a slog, though.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Ah state universities. I don’t have to deal with your IT thank GOD but I have to deal with your ramshackle “finance” departments when departments buy our stuff. If your IT is anything like your accounting squads *sobs uncontrollably*

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I had a glance at one system, sorry have to be vague. And I said, that looks like old DOS. It was. And I had been told this was sooo much better… omg.

      Why isn’t there freeware for governments? Especially small local governments. The systems are the modern equivalent to Barbie Dolls, you have to keep buying and buying and buying accessories/upgrades/etc. Taxpayers can’t and shouldn’t have to keep paying.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m just remembering how when all the states were trying to build their own Health Insurance marketplaces and so many failed so miserably they went to the Feds. And the Fed site also crashed into a horrible spiral for the longest time.

        And insurance companies websites were even starting to crash. I’m still angry about that. I once got triple charged on my card I paid the insurance with. I told them to just allocate it to my account as a prepayment. They told me “Can’t do that. You have to file a chargeback with your card and get refunded that way, we don’t have any actual way to put that on your account in advance.”

        It looks like some states use the same kinds of things. I use multiple DORs and thankfully they’re similar enough to make me think they are coming out with plug and play adjustable platforms. I don’t know the real wording for that but seriously, they do share in some capacities.

        One platform does multiple cities in the county.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I get insurance through my late husband’s former employer. So the set up is strange to begin with. I asked if I could pay for the full year in January. NOPE, can’t do that. But if I am a minute late in paying they can CANCEL. Screw it. It’s on autopay. grr.

          There’s that expression about…. our hearts and minds will follow….. angry hearts and minds that is.

          I see there are websites working on the nationwide level for paying government stuff. But the amount of steps, omg.

  179. FormerFirstTimer*

    I’ve decided to start a low key job search, since coming back to the office after the holidays, it’s been a total nightmare of a sh*tshow. I haven’t even been able to do the work I wasn’t able to complete before the break. I mentioned a while ago that we had to do a 360 review of our CEO and I was worried there would be repercussions. I decided to do it and be as honest as possible, come what may, because this place is on a slow train to complete disaster. Our HR person (who works from the Netherlands while we’re in the Midwest US) went over the results with us during a staff meeting this week and I was furious. Not a negative word was said. This place is utter chaos solely because the CEO is not good at managing or following through on anything, but is aan expert gaslighter. On top of the meeting I had with the CEO last week where I finally figured out he not only doesn’t know what I do on a daily basis, he has no idea how the program I’ve been effectively running for the past three years even works on a basic level. Seriously, if he had ever been to our website he would know the basics. All this to say, I’m done. I love my job but I can’t handle working with the CEO anymore. Sorry for the rant.

    1. Allie*

      That sucks. It’s true that people often don’t leave jobs, they leave bad management. I hope this gives you all the more motivation you need to crank up that job hunt. And I hope you find that new job and leave this sh*tshow soon.

  180. Origamist*

    I have an ethics/ conflict of interest question. I am in a position at work with lots of idle time, so I often do origami, with my boss’s permission. I’m well know for this and often give pieces away. Recently, one of my supervisors approached me and asked whether I do origami commissions. To me this wording suggests that he’d be willing to pay for the models. Would it be ok to accept payment in this situation? My current plan is to only ask for the cost of materials.

    1. 867-5309*

      I think it’s absolutely okay to accept payment AND you can be paid for your time, in addition to materials.

      I was hoping for something far more dramatic when you said “ethics / conflict of interest.” :)

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      There’s a difference between doing something for a hobby and sharing it with someone when it’s done, then when someone wants specific things. When someone puts in a request, it’s completely acceptable to ask for reimbursement for your materials and even your time. Unless you plan on doing it on company time, then I would say you shouldn’t ask for time to be paid, that’s what most would see as double dipping and unacceptable.

      You could ask them to provide you with materials and tell them you can send them an Amazon link or whatever to show the materials you’d like. Then there’s no money at all changing hands! Kind of like if you were knitting and someone said “I want you to do this specific color.” and you say “Okay bring me that yarn and sure I’ll do it that color.”

      1. Kimmy Schmidt*

        I think the issue is that Origamist DOES create origami on company time, because it’s what they do in their idle moments at work. I don’t know if they would want to take the origami outside of work hours and then have to find something else to fill the down time.

        But it still may be ok if there’s so much idle work time that it doesn’t matter. I would talk to your boss or someone higher up whose opinion you trust.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Well they could do their standard give-away origami during their downtime and then do the commission work at home, if that’s something they’d enjoy or be capable of [since it’s time consuming].

          I’m envisioning the the down time stuff is done on whims and the commission work as something specific “I want swans out of this specific materiel for my daughter’s wedding” kind of thing. Verses “I use scrap paper to make whatever works out of this size scrap.”

      2. Jedi Squirrel*

        ^^ This.

        It’s okay to be paid if it’s not on company time. If you do it on your time, you need to be paid for your labor. (See responses to Clueless Sister above.)

        But if you’re doing it on company time, and boss provides the materials or compensates you for it, then you shouldn’t ask for money, as well.

    3. Origamist*

      Thanks for the input everyone! Very helpful. I probably will be doing the folding at work, as it’s a very specific request but not a particularly difficult or time consuming one. So I will stick with asking for materials cost only.

      1. valentine*

        First, see the knitting letter where HR, I think, wanted pillows for their office on a short turnaround.

        I’d say no, thanks; no requests.

  181. DK*

    I wanted to ask all of you who are hiring managers what you think of MOOCs. There’s a series of MOOCs on EdX related to my field that I’m interested in taking, and I’ll probably take them in any case just because I’m interested, but would having something like on my resume be of any significance when looking for a job? Also, EdX has the option of auditing courses for free, in which case you get access to the course materials but not to the graded assessments, and you get no certificate or anything confirming you took the course, or for a fee you can get access to graded assessments and you get a certificate at the end. Would a hiring manager really care about the assessments and the certificate enough to make it worth paying for? The fee is not exorbitant, but money’s tight and I don’t want to pay for a certificate that won’t have any practical value for me.

    2. LunaMei*

      Don’t pay for the courses. When I am hiring, it’s somewhat interesting to me that you might have taken MOOCs or other professional development courses, but it’s not going to be a major factor in my hiring decision. I don’t think a lot of hiring managers care about the certificates, unless it’s some industry standard thing like a PMP for project managers. If it’s just for your edification, then save your money.

  182. windsofwinter*

    Had a good year end review last week. One of my goals that I am very excited about is taking an out of town class to educate myself further in my field of work. I actually asked to attend sometime last year and so they are finally letting me go! I’m very eager in case you couldn’t tell. I’ve already looked up when the course is being offered next. Would it be too pushy to tell my boss I’ve looked into it and would like to attend the first available offering? There is a cost associated, and it’s something I’m supposed to accomplish by Q2. I have the opportunity to take it this quarter though, and I really want to go.

    1. LunaMei*

      I don’t think that’s pushy at all, especially if you discussed this during your review. Your boss will probably appreciate not having to do all the research on it herself, especially if there is an early-bird price or something like that.

  183. Allie*

    I started my current job almost a year ago as a staff person after leaving a very similar company as supervisor with about 5 years’ experience. I took the new job as a staff person, it’s a larger company, the salary is about the same with less benefits but it’s a 10 minute commute which is really nice especially since I have a small child now. I came in thinking that I would prove myself and would quickly be bumped to Senior Staff with a salary increase. The person who was the senior in my department left the company a few months ago. She was always complaining about her workload but since she left, I took over many of her tasks. There was one particular tasks that the manager and supervisor were saying would be extremely difficult for them to do while being short staffed. But I took some time while to figure out their system and figured out how to complete this task on my own. So when my 6 month review came around, I was pretty annoyed by them saying “meets expectations”. When I asked what could I do to get “exceed expectations”, I was told it would be if I did something on a special project. I asked if I could be considered for the Senior position, they said they were having trouble finding a good candidate and that they would discuss with the director. I have no idea if they discussed it but in the end, they found someone they liked well enough and hired her at the Senior role. She seems like she can do the job but I don’t believe she is stronger than I am at the role. I’ve gotten along very well with her and have been helping her get up to speed but she seems to be a little slow and there are a lot of things she does not have any experience with so it’s a steeper learning curve for her. She said I’m a good teacher and asked me why I hadn’t applied for the Senior position when the last person left. I told her that I did ask and they apparently made a different decision without much of an explanation. My supervisor approached me recently and said that she would like to see me to move up eventually but I need to improve on my speed which I found very strange. While we were short-staffed, I delivered all deliverables as requested and completed additional tasks and implemented new processes at the same time. She also said something about being more open to people. I am not very outgoing I believe I interact with people professionally and make small talk occasionally. I think they are full of it and I’m really annoyed about it even though I’m doing my best to not show it. I would like to approach my supervisor and the manager about my compensation. My review was a few months ago but my one year anniversary is coming up. What is a good way to bring it up? Were it not for my family situation and the convenience of this job at the moment, I would probably be job hunting. Complicating things is I recently revealed that I was expecting and would be going on maternity leave in about 6 months. Is there a way to bring this up now?

    1. DinoGirl*

      It’s pretty standard for someone who has been in a job 6 months to be rated “meets expectations.” This is a common reaction from employees regarding their rating, and for that reason, ratings can be bothersome. But, generally speaking, most employees are and should be rated “meets expectations.” Only truly exceptional work should be noted as such, and it’s really hard to achieve that in under a year, it takes a year usually to acclimate to a new job.
      That said, as an introvert, I detest feedback generally that touches on sociability and an outgoing nature in the workplace. I received feedback like that once in one of my earliest jobs indirectly and it was very frustrating.
      But I can’t tell from what you wrote above exactly what they might mean from being open with people – you seem to take that as being friendly, but if you aren’t positive what they meant based on examples, I think it would be reasonable to ask for clarity on that.
      Compensation depends on your organization. If they only give raises during the review cycle, it’s unlikely they will consider it outside of that cycle.
      Generally, I would caution you to be more open to the feedback, but certainly you should ask for clarity about the feedback you received so you understand concerns and specifically what concerns they would want to see addressed to promote you.

  184. Mouserat*

    This isnt necessarily work related, but I have been searching for a past letter. The LWs spouse worked for the family’s dysfunctional business and wasnt being paid on time. The LW was pregnant and worried about spouse not being paid. Was this posted here, or another advice column? Or was this all a fever dream?

  185. Environmental Compliance*

    We passed our EHS audit with flying colors (at least on the environmental side). 80% reduction in action items, and all items are more recommendations than anything…. like hey, we would recommend tamper rings rather than tamper seals. I’m calling this a huge success.

    Plus, I have 2 phone interviews next week, and my boss told me today they cannot afford to lose me.

    This week has gone much better than expected.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I’m making cookies to bring in as celebration. The teams did all the work – I just corralled & herded cats in the background.

  186. Anon for this*

    I am late today, but hopefully I can get some advice.

    How do people deal with grief when important things like year reviews are at the same time? I got a phone call yesterday and I am really distraught about it (they are so far just really ill, but it is going to be bad and fast at best), to the point I had to take today off since between the migraine and crying I was a wreck.

    It is not a direct family member, but it is someone who has influenced my life a lot, and it is a surprise to everyone. The person who called is a friend and almost started crying on the phone to me as well when telling me.

    I dumbly picked up my phone when my manager called today as he forgot I was off sick, and I think I freaked him out as I sounded terrible, but he wants to do the meeting next week. I don’t want to reschedule too far out, but I anticipate that the crying will hit randomly still at that point.

    1. DefCon 10*

      Do you have a good relationship with your manager? Is he reasonably compassionate? If so, I recommend being honest with him. Tell him you received some terrible personal news about someone close to you, and you aren’t quite yourself. Then ask him if it would be possible to move the meeting by a week or two so you have some time to adjust and participate to the best of your ability.

  187. Jessica Fletcher*

    So. I’m getting promoted. And I have to decide if I want the promotion to become effective now or in April after my annual review. If I do it before the review, I won’t get an increase at review time. (Because I will have had a raise within 6 mo that was higher than my annual increase.)

    If I get the promotion now, I lose about $2k compared to if it effective in April. And I want that $2k.

    But, I’m going to be applying for jobs, both internal (when some get listed) and external. If I get an offer, maybe I won’t be here in April, and I could have had that raise and title bump earlier.

    What do you think? Also, would it look weird to be job searching right after I got a promotion?

    When I accept the promotion also impacts my internal search. After I accept the promotion, I can’t leave for an internal position for 6 months.

    I’m looking because, as some may recall, my coworker is horrible and my boss shows no signs of changing the situation. She’s been here 6 months, and just yesterday came in on time, for the first time EVER. That’s just the tip of the iceberg.

    I’m feeling particularly shitty about this today because I just found out that my boss intends to bring my coworker to a conference. So not only is he not firing her, but he’s rewarding her with this trip. I feel bad every single day, and I think I’m becoming depressed again.

    1. WellRed*

      I don’t understand your math. Is the raise less for the promotion then it is for the annual increase? Or is there some weird formula that impacts all this? It’s pretty common not to give two raises in two months. If you take the promotion now, you get a raise now, no? Will the promotion solve your work problem? I sense your company has issues.

  188. Anonymessed*

    This feels like it should be supervision 101, but I’m struggling and could use some advice. I have an employee who I believe is falsifying her timesheet. She is non-exempt but not required to clock in/out – she just enters her hours each day along with any PTO she takes. She comes in late, leaves early, and disappears at various times during the day. What makes this hard to track is 1) her job requires her to be away from her desk regularly, so the fact that she’s not at her desk isn’t a clear sign that she’s not working, and 2) she brings few personal belongings with her and works in an open area (no office door to close/lights to turn out), so I can’t tell from glancing at her work area whether she’s gone for the day or not. I have verified through building security records that she is entering late, leaving early, and leaving the building multiple times per day–but since our building has a public door, she could be using that, and HR says we must give her the benefit of the doubt (note: I have never seen her use that door). Meanwhile, as her supervisor, I have to certify each week that her time sheet is correct, when I’m all but certain it isn’t.

    So… any tips for how to handle this, short of spending my day watching her desk (which is not in my line of sight, and it would be really obvious if I were hanging out in her work area)? I’ve spoken with her about how much she’s away from her desk, and she says she’s working elsewhere in the building. She insists that she works her specified schedule and makes up any time she misses due to appointments. I want to be fair to her and assume the best, but all the evidence suggests she is lying. Yet I can’t prove it. I also have to be careful how I approach this, since there’s a good chance HR won’t allow any disciplinary action without absolute proof (government job), so if I blow up my working relationship with her, that could make a bad situation worse and not solve the problem.

    I feel like the most incompetent manager ever just typing this out. Someone please set me straight.

    1. Allie*

      Personally, I would just assume whatever she puts on her timesheet is correct unless you have difinitive evidence showing otherwise. Also, since it’s a government job, my guess is that you will just drive yourself nuts about this from hunting around to see which door she is coming in from or going out of. The biggest issue I think is, are you seeing results? Is she available when you need her to be? Does she produce good work? If you are not comfortable with her having this much leeway, then perhaps the job structure should change. Or maybe you should check in with her more often. You could ask her to check in with you if she will be gone for more than say 15 minutes at a time. Or she should put her time on the calendar showing where she is and what she is doing. You could ask her to submit a weekly calendar showing what she did so that you can feel comfortable certifying her timesheet is accurate. But honestly, if her work is good and satisfactory, I would just assume that she is working when you don’t see her at her desk or that she will make up the time.

      1. Ra94*

        Agreed! It doesn’t sound like OP has any performance concerns (or if they do, they’ve buried the lede.) If the employee is doing all of her work, has valid reason to be frequently out of the office, and OP has never caught her in any proven timesheet inconsistency, I don’t see cause for alarm. I’m not even sure why OP was suspicious in the first place, since the employee’s offered explanation (that she was working elsewhere in the building) DOES match the reality of her job duties.

      2. Jedi Squirrel*

        I have verified through building security records that she is entering late, leaving early, and leaving the building multiple times per day

        Unless her job requires her to work outside of the building, there is all the definitive evidence you need.

        But I agree with Allie—the real issuehere is whether or not she is getting all her work done. If she is, then the problem may be that she doesn’t have enough to do.

        If she’s not getting all her work done, then that is the angle to approach this from. “The TPS reports are incomplete/late for a third week. Why is that?” It may be that she has a legitimate reason for being away from her desk so much. The coming in late/leaving early thing is another matter. Can you obtain a physical copy of those security records? If so, that is the angle you would probably want to go to HR with.

    2. Buttons*

      Would IT be able to pull up when she is logged into the network?
      My staff is all remote, and I had suspensions that one of my employees, who is in a different time zone, was working another job. I called IT and was able to get a report on when he logged in and out of the VPN.

    3. Stornry*

      This is a tough one. You’re right – as Gov’t we have to have something verifying the absences, especially if her quantity and quality of work is still acceptable. If this were a public service desk, it would be easier at least for that portion of the job.

      There are a number of ways you can require staff to account for their time — email check-in when they arrive, an in/out board, a task log — but, to make sure it doesn’t look like you’re singling her out, you’ll have to require the same of everybody. Do it under the guise of “as supervisor, I need to get a handle on [x] so I need everyone to do this for the foreseeable future.” You’ll get grumblings, but it might work. You could also do more “management by walking around” if you can spare the time. Do random walk-abouts, check in with people in person regarding project status rather than via email, etc. I had a supervisor once who started at 7:30 and every morning at around 8:00, almost daily, he’d happen to print something to the communal printer and have to come out of his office to get it (I couldn’t help but think he was making sure everyone was at work on time).

      1. Tabby Baltimore*

        She insists that she works her specified schedule and makes up any time she misses due to appointments.
        I really liked Stornry’s suggestions above, but you might want to also legitimately review her “specified” schedule yourself, to see if it still works for you and the unit. If not, you’ll need to justify the change, sure, but she’ll have to adhere to it if she wants to keep the job.

        Since you also noted that she leaves the building, sometimes multiple times per day (only you know whether that’s truly necessary vs. making a simple phone call or using some other communications medium), it might be a good idea to start asking *all* of your employees to get in the habit of notifying you, somehow, when they need to leave the building for work purposes, and when they return. After all, as their government supervisor, you would be expected to know where they are at all times, especially in case of an emergency (a personal one, or a national one). Good luck, and let us know what you decided to do.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      For the moment, just focus on productivity. Is she getting the level of results you need per day or week? That is your starting point.

      You say she uses time sheets. Make sure there is a statement on the time sheet about what happens if hours are falsely stated. A signature line right underneath that statement is a good idea.

      And as gently as possible, the more concerned you get over the possibility of her lying then it is more likely that your feelings of being an incompetent manager will increase also. Understand that these two things exasperate each other. This is not a good road to start down and it will unravel you way quicker than it will unravel her. This because you care about your job and she does not.

      So deep breath. Lies ALWAYS bubble to the surface. Always. What to do is expect an honest day’s work from her and act accordingly. “Do you have the Smith file?” When she finally finds the file, and you note that she has not done anything on it in three weeks ask her about that. “This looks like it has not been worked on in three weeks, can you tell me why?” And just keep doing this, carry the expectation that she is on top of her job AT ALL TIMES.

      At some point she will either wise up and focus on her work OR you will find out what is actually going on. Focus on her work outputs, focus on keeping to deadlines and so on.

  189. MXY*

    Long time reader but first time commenter with two questions. Eek!

    1. This situation has already passed for the most part since I no longer work with this coworker as much (I was covering for another open position under her at the time), but I’d like some advice on how to deal with something similar in the future.

    My coworker had a habit of blaming mistakes in her data on me. The worst part was that she would CC our boss /every single time/ she emailed me about it. I was fine if it was actually my fault because there were times it was, but when it was her fault, I still got the blame. I never knew how to respond without looking like I was an immature millennial deflecting criticism. Most of my coworkers are around my parents’ ages and someone had actually said they were glad I didn’t have a “millennial attitude” before, so I know it’s something to watch out for in the office. This coworker is much older than I am, very senior to me in terms of how long she’s worked here, and has a higher, much more niche, difficult-to-fill position than I do as an admin assistant. We are also both East Asian so cultural expectations of hierarchy and respect play into our dynamic.

    The most frustrating part isn’t necessarily being blamed for mistakes not my own, but that I seemed more incompetent to my boss despite having glowing performance reviews prior. My boss even brought it up in my most recent evaluation and casually asked me to be more careful before setting the issue aside. This is my first permanent job and I really need a good letter of rec for grad school. I think this coworker is a great person and does a lot of great work, but this really soured how I personally felt about our working relationship because I felt like I was being treated unfairly. How should I have approached it? Or am I overreacting?

    2. This is going to seem ridiculous and naive, but… How do you network? And how do you network as an introvert who doesn’t have good conversational skills in-person and is hard-of-hearing? I have a difficult time following conversations at networking events because I can’t hear very well with all the noise, so I end up not speaking that much and letting other people talk.

    1. Buttons*

      #1 you are not overreacting, if your boss thinks those are your mistakes then it needs (or needed) to be addressed.
      I would respond with: “Good catch! I was not responsible for inputting that data, but I am happy to correct it.” It shows that you have a “can do” *gag* attitude and willing to chip in, but you are not making mistakes.
      Don’t let people’s bad attitudes and misconceptions around millennials keep you from standing up for yourself. Boomers are going to die and retire soon and millennials are going to leap frog over Gen Xers and be the big bosses in the next 5 years, so start acting like a boss now :)
      2. I just had a coaching session with one of my employees who asked me a similar question. My advice to her was to attend industry-specific lunch and learns or that kind of event, the actually talking and socializing part is less intense, and the focus is on the specific thing you are there to learn. It also helps you to have something to talk about- “I found topic very interesting, have you implemented something like this at your company?”

      1. valentine*

        You’ve got to both correct the record and start telling your boss when it’s not your mistake. Mention the coworker doesn’t specify when it’s not your mistake.

        Most of my coworkers are around my parents’ ages
        Set this aside and treat them as they should treat you. (Kindly and with dignity. No more slagging off millennials. Tell them stereotypes are inappropriate.)

        We are also both East Asian so cultural expectations of hierarchy and respect play into our dynamic.
        Set this aside, unless everyone is East Asian and it’s part of the work culture. See the letters here about colleagues insisting on being called or calling others M(r)s/ma’am/sir. Your boss probably doesn’t expect you to show this much deference to this person.

    2. Jedi Squirrel*

      #2: What a coincidence! Pocket just posted a story from TED about networking. I’ll post a link in a follow-up comment.

    3. Buttons*

      I posted but it disappeared! Ugg.
      1. You are not overreacting, your boss thinks you are making mistakes you are not making, and it will affect your performance review and advancement! If this were to happen again you need to reply with “Good catch! But I wasn’t responsible for inputting that data, but I am happy to correct it!” This shows you didn’t make the mistake be have a “can do” (ugg) attitude.
      Don’t let people’s misconceptions of millennials stop you from standing up for yourself. Boomers will retire or die soon, and millennials will leap frog over Gen Xers to be the big bosses in the next 5 years. So start acting like a boss now :)
      2. I would suggest attending a lunch and learn style event instead of a standard networking event. These kinds of events spend less time with chit-chat, and it will also give you an opener. “That was really interesting about x. Do you have experience with it?” Or if you want to do more talking you can say “That was really great information about Y, I am currently working on a strategy to implement that at my company.”

      1. MXY*

        It suddenly reappeared, Buttons!

        Thank you, this is really helpful as I honestly have very little idea of workplace professionalism sometimes. I’ll definitely use this script as needed. :) Luckily, it wasn’t a big deal during my review–it turned out that me not expressing my thoughts or views was more important to my boss for me to fix. This is definitely part of it. Time to work on that…

        I try not to let it bother me too much! My coworkers (at least in my department) are great overall, but it definitely is something I keep in mind. I just have a lot of anxiety surrounding being at-will employed and all that jazz.

        A lunch and learn event sounds really fun, especially since I’ve never been to one. I’ll look more into it. Thanks for the suggestion!

        1. Buttons*

          At my company I started a new grad and early career professionals (the name came from a suggestion here!) program. Part of what we talk about are corporate professional “norms”, those things aren’t taught in school, and they are also very specific to where you work. What is ok in one place wouldn’t be ok in another. I call those “hidden rules” :)
          Speak your mind, you have an opinion and a perspective that needs to be heard. You were hired for a reason. Good luck!

        1. Buttons*

          I am Gen X. My comment about leapfrogging isn’t criticizing GenX, it is actually a critical look at the work generations and how Boomers worked longer than any other generation, not allowing GenXers to advance to the levels of Boomers. This isn’t my opinion, this is a well-researched fact.

  190. Elle*

    Am I being unreasonable?

    I am relatively new to line management, and one of my staff has just quit. Fair enough – my department is all entry level roles, with little room for advancement. What is annoying me is *how* she quit. I left at lunchtime today to go and see my sick grandmother. My staff know this. I will be back in on Monday morning as normal. At 2pm, while I was driving, she texted to say, “heads up, I got the job”. Five minutes later, she sent a text to the team whatsapp (15 people, including my boss and grand boss) letting everyone know she is leaving. So when I arrived at the hospital, the first thing I saw was a dozen messages congratulating her on the new job. Am I unreasonable to feel that that message could have waited till Monday? Or at least until I had acknowledged her message?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My head kind of exploded for you.

      I get why you’re annoyed AF.

      But this is standard practice for that kind of role/setup. We have had people quit in some glorious ways because they don’t care, they’re moving on and never looking back. So they’re not thinking about what this may do to taint what you think of her moving forward, so they don’t care. The level of professionalism is very skewed in a lot of those roles. Which is why I love this form because everyone thinks so professionally whereas I come from the dirt farm level of professionalism aka there’s no professionalism to speak of.

      1. Elle*

        Oh, rereading I see I missed an important point – she’s waving us for another role with the university we work for…

        1. valentine*

          She’s got to live her life and it’s an internal transfer. There’s no guarantee anything would be better had she waited. She could wait and you might receive bad news or any number of scenarios could mount to a sitcom-level of “Well, I can’t tell Elle now…”

      2. Elle*

        Yeah, I feel like I probably ought to be remembering that she’s the only person in her family in a professional job, and this is her first non-retail role.

        Also, I’m frankly at bitch eating crackers stage with her anyway, so that’s probably playing a part in my reaction, as is the fact that my gran is so ill – if I’d been going on holiday, I suspect I’d be feeling waaaay more chill about it!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Shit, it’s a university setting. I read this and was imagining something closer to a place like manufacturing or transportation, some days I think we’re just steps away from retail and food service for the level of professionalism that is shown on any given day. But knowing that she comes from retail, it does make a ton of sense in that aspect…she doesn’t know she’s not in retail anymore *sigh*

          Don’t give her a pass because she’s the first person in her family to do something. My family is a bunch of laborers and they’d murder me where I stand if I ever gave notice like that, lol. People are just generally selfish and not thinking ahead of what they are doing in any given moment. So they’re not like “How will this effect me in another year or two, how will I preserve this relationship because it can be good in the future for networking, etc.”

    2. Buttons*

      Wow. That was unprofessional and weird. She should let you, her manager know first, hand in a formal resignation and then ask you if it is ok she tells people.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        And it would be a service to her if you said or emailed this, OP.
        That is … if you feeeel like it. If you don’t, oh well.

      2. andy*

        Is there seriously an expectation for keeping someone leaving secret? At least in tech workplaces I was in it was not so.

        Realistically, typically employees in same team knew before management. Management were last to know, because they can harm you while you are looking for job. But with friends or people on the same level, they probably knew before job interview that you are going there. The have heard pieces of decision process and job search. But, the expectation was to let direct team leader the moment you have other job lined up – so that they can start to work on replacement asap.

        So while the way text was phrased is not formal enough, the idea that someone finding a new job and leaving should be treated as a secret is odd.

        1. Elle*

          I’m not bothered that she told the others at her level – I’m deeply bothered that she told my boss and grand boss, without at least checking with me. But, to be fair, I did ask if I was being unreasonable! I mentioned above that I’ve already had it up to here with her behaviour (generally very immature and unprofessional), and I’m concerned that’s going to colour my reaction to this.

          1. Just Another Manic Millie*

            I guess I’m cold-hearted, but whenever I gave two weeks notice, it never occurred to me to find out if my supervisor had any family problems that would make me consider putting off my giving notice for another day. At one job, I found out that I was about to be fired, and I managed to quit AND find a new job before they hired my replacement. At another job, I was fired because a manager praised me, and an admin overheard, and she got jealous and told the branch manager that if he didn’t fire me, she would quit, so he fired me (and he told me that this was why he fired me). At another job, they kept pushing me out the door until I managed to find another job. I gave them two weeks notice, but I said that I had told my new company how horribly I was treated, and the new company wanted me to start immediately if it was okay with my present company. But no, my present company wanted me to stay put for those two weeks. And my present company was angry that I had quit (with two weeks notice) because I wound up staying there for four and a half months, and since I was there for at least three months, they owed the employment agency the full fee.

            What I am saying is that NONE of those companies gave a duck as to whether or not I had family problems when they decided to get rid of me.

            Whenever I gave notice, I never cared about getting permission from my supervisor to tell my coworkers or grand-boss that I was leaving. Neither did any other employees at any company where I ever worked. If anyone had suggested that I should, I would have laughed. And so would everyone else.

            1. Elle*

              If I’d been in the office, it would have been fine (or if she’d emailed me) – it was more the fact that she texted me while I was off.

              But yeah, I think what I’m hearing here is that I need to just chill!

              1. Just Another Manic Millie*

                “it was more the fact that she texted me while I was off.”

                What’s funny is that at another job, I learned that my predecessor had gotten a new job. A co-worker told her to email the owner immediately to give notice, since the owner would be out of the office for a few days. But my predecessor decided to wait until the owner returned to the office. The owner wound up being furious at my predecessor for having waited to give notice and threw her out and said that if anyone ever called her for a reference for my predecessor, she would say that my predecessor was fired.

                Sometimes you just can’t win.

  191. CatMintCat*

    I go back to work on Tuesday after not working full time for over six months (cancer diagnosis and treatment and summer holidays; I’m fine now). I’m not sure I even remember what I do there! I’ve never been this nervous about the start of a school year.

    2. WellRed*

      Give yourself permission to ease in, and maybe leave early if needed. I’ve not been in your exact situation, but have felt a tad fragile or whatever in re entering the real world after brief period of new diagnosis and also, death of parent. Gentle steps.

  192. Anonymous for this, colleagues read here*

    This week’s advice about applying to and interviewing for jobs. (= I need to express a bit of exasperation and you may benefit from it haha)

    I am running a search for a position at a large university, academic adjacent area. We are looking for someone at least one level past entry-level (the more experienced the better). Pay range is good compared to similar positions at this institution, mid range for the region.

    Previously my advice/exasperation was about applications and resumes (main theme: don’t lie). Today it is about interviews.

    1. Please learn something about our program. We have a fairly informative website. You will be able to ask more intelligent and interesting questions if you’ve taken a look at it. It will also help inform your presentation. (Bonus points if you find a way to incorporate information directly from our website into your presentation as long as it is pertinent.)

    2. Have questions to ask and work to make them good ones. I can’t stress this enough. Yes/no questions, questions that ask for information right there on our website, questions with very limited scope –these make you look like you are limited in your ability to think, lack creativity or curiosity, and don’t really know enough about the field to ask good questions. If you are entry level, you get some slack on this, but since we are not looking for entry level employees, it will be a mark against you. Of course you may have one or two such questions, but your other questions need to be good ones. Which brings us to…

    3. Have more than two or three questions prepared. You may have a lot of time for asking questions (in the search committee interview, our aim is to give you at least fifteen minutes). It’s always better to have too many questions prepared than not enough. If you are newer to interviewing: know that you can ask different people/groups the same questions — you can get interesting insights by doing that.

    4. When we ask you to prepare a particular activity or presentation, AND TELL YOU EXPLICITLY WHAT SKILLS WE ARE LOOKING TO EVALUATE, follow directions. For instance, if we ask you to demonstrate Llama Dancing, do not prepare a powerpoint presentation and lecture at us. If we say it needs to be 20 minutes or less, do not go over time. Practice. And please. Please. Proofread everything.

    5. If you are bringing materials for your presentation, ask ahead of time how many copies you need to bring. This is not a big thing that will count against you if you are short on materials, but checking ahead of time will be noted and we will be pleased that you are on top of it and organized.

    6. Be ready for questions asked by the people attending your presentation. Make up practice questions. Get Team You to help you with this ahead of time. We don’t expect you to know all the answers and you can get a weird question or two, but most of the questions are predictable. Predict them.

    7. Please follow directions as to when and where to check in. If the agenda we send you says check in at reception desk, do not go straight to the meeting room listed for the presentation. It is not good when we’re wasting time trying to find you (and thinking that you have blown us off).

    8. When asked to describe a time when you made errors in your work and how you handled it, do not answer that you never make errors in your work because you are very-detail oriented and double and triple check. Unless you make that a little joke, and then go on to answer the question. If the committee chair chuckles and says, that’s a good practice but seriously, could you tell us about a time when it DID happen, do not double down on your answer. Everybody makes mistakes. Everybody.

    9. Send a thank-you email. So far only half our candidates have sent one and we’ve been interviewing over several weeks. It is standard practice in our field. Again, not going to keep you from getting an offer by itself, but it’s one piece of information about you (= doesn’t know standard professional etiquette for the field).

  193. Chronic Overthinker*

    Had to laugh today. In my organization I am the lowest rung of the ladder so to speak, therefore everyone above me is technically my superior. I made a relatively minor error due to a conflict of procedure and had five of my colleagues repeat how to fix said error in the future, even after I created an SOP to ensure the error doesn’t happen again. It made me think of Office Space and the TPS reports cover page issue. After the fifth colleague stopped by my office to remind me of how to avoid said error, I waited for them to leave and then giggled. I may actually have to watch that movie tonight. I really do love my job, but continually dragging out my mistakes can be a bit draining on my morale.

    1. WellRed*

      This would be solved by a clearer chain of command. What a bunch of fools, but laughter is the best medicine,

    2. Nervous Nellie*

      Uhhh, riiiiight. Did you get the memo? If you could just go ahead and put the new cover sheets on the SOP reports, that would be greaaaaaaat. Oh, and I’m going to have you go ahead and come in on Saturday. Riiiiiight…..

    3. Retail not Retail*

      It might mitigate the aggravation if you had the type of relationship to acknowledge it and make light of it.

      While struggling with something, someone else points out the more logical and easier method. I say, nope I want to do this the hard way! I have my reasons!

      Or the fifth correction cut them off and say yup, shut the gate.

  194. Rob*

    I’m interviewing for a role I applied last year. Long story short, I made it to the final found but took another job because they needed to hire a manager that would oversee the position, first. (The process ended up taking 6+ weeks and I told them after the first interview that I had another offer in the bag; we ended things amicably and they understood that I couldn’t force my current employer to extend an offer for several weeks)

    Fast forward to December, they reached out again. Interview was short and had to complete another assessment test (my second one for them; each takes about 12+ hours and there’s a fairly strict deadline, so it’s not a light lift on top of my current workload). It’s been 2.5 weeks and I reached out to find that they are in the initial stage with other candidates, which means it’ll take at least another week or so before I find out the next steps. Still, I can’t help but feel a little like I’m being strung along by them during all this time? Part of my frustration is having completed such an exhaustive assessment test (twice) and not having received an acknowledgment of receipt when I forwarded it over. It’s unpaid work, after all, and I would’ve really appreciated a quick “Thanks for sending this” in email-form. I’m trying to figure out if I’m entitled to feel this way or maybe being overly emotional about it? Thanks for your thoughts, everyone.

  195. KoiFeeder*

    Just a soft vent.

    My graduate advisor has been sending out emails mentioning “Koifeeter” which is… weird, and not my name, but didn’t seem like a big deal, especially since I’ve been abusing the reply all feature specifically so that I can sign off with “Koifeeder” instead of actively correcting my advisor. But now the teacher for the class I TA just sent out an email to everyone with “Coyfeeter” instead of my name. Which means I’m going to have to actively send a correction email or something. Which I don’t want to do. Sob.

    My name is right there, by the way. The official address is koifeeder[birthmonth][birthday]@[schoolname].edu, and it has my correct name if you mouse over the address on the email app. Sob.

    1. Mayor of Llamatown*

      During my masters degree (online) I had a professor who consistently called me a similar-but-not-the-same name. Imagine if my name was Jon, and she called me Ron. I corrected her once, and she never acknowledged it, so I let it go and decided to include it in the end-of-course evaluation, but at the very end she was like, “Oh, Jon! I’ve been calling you Ron! Silly me!”

      The craziest thing was, it was an online class, so my name was RIGHT THERE. In my email,. in the course system, on every paper and presentation I submitted. She would reply to the correct email address and start with “Hi Ron”. And…everything was under my longer name. So it’s like my name was Jonathan and she was calling me Ron.

      So I have all the feels for you, it’s so irksome to be called by the wrong name, especially when the right name is right. there.

    2. Maya Elena*

      You can privately email each of the people individually who spelled it wrong and correct them; no need to draw attention to their mistake publicly; if it’s a big list, many people possibly didn’t notice.

      Something like, “Hey, got your message! Also, I think you meant KoiFeeder, not CoyFeeter! :D”

      1. KoiFeeder*

        Oh, yeah, it would be a private correction email, I just hate correcting people because I worry that they’ll hate me for it. I, uh, do not have very constructive thought patterns.

        1. Stornry*

          When it comes to your name, you must correct them. If they are nice, normal people, they’ll be grateful (and a bit embarrassed for having got it wrong when it was right there). If they are not nice or normal, then they won’t get it anyway; and if they “hate” you for it, well, screw ’em – they don’t deserve to know who you really are anyway.

          1. Alice*

            That said, it gets more awkward the longer you wait, even with the nice normal people. So do it the next time, or even send a proactive note about it, and then you’ll be free of worrying about it!

    3. Jedi Squirrel*

      Well now I’m just imagining koi fish with big giant human feet and I can’t get that image out of my head. I’m sorry it doesn’t help you (I hate it when people don’t bother to get other people’s names right; I mean, c’mon!), but I needed that laugh after this week. Thank you.

    4. Rainy*

      I get this a lot and always have with my first name (lots of people assume it must be Lainy, like I’m wrong about my own name!), but since I got married, I’m experiencing a whole new world of people getting my name wrong. Y’see, Mr Rainy and I *both* hyphenated, and since his last name was earlier in the alphabet than mine, I was like “this is a great chance to finally be first!” So now I’m Rainy Bow-Storm, and, in a twist I didn’t expect, people who make assumptions about names like that assume *I’m* the Bow and *he’s* the Storm, so people will ask me “oh hey, is Sandra Bow related to you?” and call Mr Rainy “Mr Storm”.

      1. KoiFeeder*

        Bwuh. I’m lucky enough that no two people spell “koi” the same (koi, koee, koy, coy, coee, coi), so most people at least know better than to assume, because I would not have the patience for that.

    5. Anono-me*

      Please just send a quick and simple email saying “By the way my name is spelled “Koifeeder”. It looks like autocorrect got creative.”

      And you don’t actually even need the second line, but if you’re worried that people might think you are angry about the mistake; the second line creates the impression that you’re blaming it on technology and not them.

      Also please do this as soon as possible to each person who gets your name wrong. Nice people want to know. And they want to know as soon as possible. I try very hard to be sure to get people’s names right, especially in emails where I have the name right in front of me. If you corrected my misuse of your name, I would feel bad. If I checked my emails and found I had been mistaking your name for more than a few days, I would feel absolutely horrible.

  196. Event Planner Wannabe*

    I’ve had event planning responsibilities as an executive assistant — planning out big corporate events, booking travel, creating an itinerary, ordering food, etc etc…

    I really enjoy that aspect of the job and want to do that as a bigger part of what I do.

    However, when I look at “Event Planner” or even “Even Manager” jobs, it’s like these hotel jobs where you’re selling the banquet hall, or it’s working for a marketing firm where you’re expected to work nights almost everyday.

    Corporate event planner HAS to be a job, right? Am I searching for the wrong keywords? Or are they just few and far between?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If you’re only going to be dealing with event planning, you’ll have to get used to the weird non-traditional schedule/late nights. Even if you work for a place who has someone on staff for just that [those seem very rare because they either do lowkey stuff that an EA can put together easy enough or they source an outside planner from one of those marketing firms], the nights are a given in most instances.

      You’re dealing with vendors that are often non-traditional office hours is really why that is. You get to meet with a caterer when they can fit you in, they often don’t even start working until after noon at times, if they’re also working for an established restaurant as well and not just a strictly catering event. Then you have to work around their events/calendar, which span all times of the day.

    2. WellRed*

      Have you tried trade show or event planning companies themselves rather then look for a corporate gig? Or tried conference or show planner as keyWord? I work for a c that does two small outside (0ffsite) events. We had a show manager ( negotiatiared hotel rates and room blocks, ordered food, arranged for networking reception) but we eventually outsourced it to someone who yeah, also sold booth space). The programming was always done by us, though. I think lots of that work also falls on admin staff.

    3. Fellow Traveler*

      Where I work (non-profit performing arts), the people who organize the galas and fundraisers are often called “Special Events Coordinators” and they often work in the Development department. Often, if the Development department is small, the events part is just one facet of what one might do and so one is often called a Development Associate or something like that.

    4. Ranon*

      Maybe also look at universities- they have a lot of venues and a lot of internal and external clients for events, and more daytime events than other types of places so while there’s still plenty of non traditional hours for events it’s at least somewhat more day job shaped

  197. Alyssa Jones*

    A couple weeks ago I had a job interview that went really well. So well in fact that I was offered the job at the end. Naturally, I accepted. They had me do all the preemployment paperwork, a mini-physical and a drug test (which I passed). I was walked around the entire building and introduced as the new receptionist. Before I left, I was told I would get a call between 2 and 3 the next day to nail down things like training and my start date. I didn’t do anything the next day but waited excitedly for the phone call. Three o’clock comes and goes with no call. I figured it had gotten busy so called them myself the next morning. I was told the woman I needed to talk to was in a meeting, but would call me back later. She didn’t. So I called the next day and was told the same thing. I called the next day and was told the woman I needed to talk to had been out all week with a family emergency (clearly a lie as I had an interview with her earlier that week). I called on Friday and was told she was out but would call me back on Monday. She didn’t. On Tuesday, I demanded to talk to her. I was finally transferred to her. After 15 minutes on hold, she told me the position had been filled. I asked then why I had been walked around introduced as the new receptionist. She said, “I don’t know why someone would do that. There must have been some sort of misunderstanding with the person who showed you around.” I said, “The person who showed me around was you…” She hung up on me.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I get this sinking feeling these idiots hired two people for the job and the other person showed up, so they were trying to ghost you and hope you would just stop trying. What a bunch of…

      I’m glad you were able to be all “Gurl it was you” at the end but WTF RUDE at hanging up and also the fact they just kept giving you the run around. Just own it and say “We’re sorry, there was a mixup.”

      I’m glad it doesn’t sound like you had given notice at another job or anything crazy like that because what if you had?! What would they have done then?! Still treated you like this…yuck. Just yuck.

      I know you were excited to work there but at the end of the day, it’s a blessing because they sound like a real frigging trainwreck. You’d be lying all day long about why this idiot isn’t able to call people back.

    4. WellRed*

      Aside from the rest of it, who requires a physical at the interview? Who requires a physical for a receptionist?!

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        There are certain places that do make even the receptionist do physicals. If you’re accepting packages and supposed to deliver them, along with perhaps having to be the one who restocks things in the lobby, you know?

        It’s not just a constant desk job in all setups!

        It’s post interview usually, along with you peeing in a cup for the drug test. I nope out of anywhere that makes office staff pee in a cup though, so that would have had me all “Gurl, byeeeee.” And no, I’m not on drugs, I just hate UAs lol.

        1. Just Another Manic Millie*

          When I was hired to work for a stockbroker, orientation was held every Monday morning at headquarters for all the brand new employees, both at headquarters and at all of their branch offices in the city. All of us were given a physical, including peeing in a cup.

          I had no problem with the peeing thing. In fact, I much preferred it to another company, where I was offered the job on the spot, subject to my passing a lie detector test. I was told that the lie detector test was to rule out people taking drugs. No thanks, I don’t want to take a lie detector test. If you want to know if I take drugs, you can test my urine, or my blood, or my hair, but don’t ask me to take a lie detector test. That was not the only reason I turned the job down.

      2. Alyssa Jones*

        I was expected to lift packages occasionally. It was at a retirement home, so delivery meant wouldn’t be let in any farther than the front desk.

    6. nep*

      Holy moly. I reckon you dodged a bullet, because…what?! At the same time, though, sorry you had to go through that.

    7. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      My guess is they found out (whether correctly or not) something about you at literally the last minute, changed their minds about hiring you and came down with acute intestinal fortitude deficiency.

  198. Buttons*

    This is exactly what you do. And going forward I wouldn’t wait until the end to get everything. I would do weekly check-ins so you can catch things before they get off track.

  199. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I’m starting to feel like an uptight high maintenance jackhole because I have had a recent string of bad experiences with vendors who have “very nice” people doing our projects but they’re…very bad at their jobs.

    We’re refurnishing offices so we’re working with essentially a place that contracts with furniture manufacturers to sell their furniture and design offices. Great, we love that idea, it makes it easier than my first option which was piecing everything together off stuff I find at a second hand office store [and they thought my boss was the cheapskate, hahaha. no.] So yay, brand new stuff!

    But it’s been painful AF this entire time. It’s like 5 offices a cubical setup for the support team, breakroom and meeting room. We should be pretty easy.

    The proposals are 20 pages long. The desks and their doohickies are all about 10 line items long. Cool…story. But I’m in the business of items broken down into pieces, so fine, fine.

    We sent back the first one with a bunch of deductions and no additions except for literally a folding table added to one room. That reduced the costs drastically as we figured it would. But when you break it down by each office, some of the offices have magically increased. *blank stare* Increased. When nothing has been added. I found one line item without even a description in it.

    So now I’m compiling a list of “what does this even mean? we didn’t add anything here, why has this changed?”

    And am really put out by the whole process. The good news is it’s giving me great practice in patience. The steaming rants I’ve had at my colleagues and then that much smoother “I’m not happy with this and need you to fix this or have a great reasoning behind it.” conversation with the vendor representative who clearly is over his head somewhere. And the designer isn’t any better. I was like “I want very basic stuff, I just need like a table here.” and he tried to give me a frigging outrageous entertainment center like thing in my conference room. I just need a frigging table for some coffee and cookie tray, dude. I said “Basic table”. I guess basic isn’t the same in everyone’s vocabulary.

    I just want to go pull some fold out card tables and go this way. I’ll this design “Start-up chic”

    I’m going to go back to this stupid thing and keep going. It’s taking forever, the new proposal inst’ even in the same frigging order as the second one. I had to print it all out and put it side by side to pull it apart. Imagine me as a slightly better tempered Scrooge McDuck pawing through this nonsense quacking loudly at the differences. These aren’t pennies I’m playing with, these are literally thousands of dollars worth of things that I never even imagined wanting in the first place.

    1. Auntie Social*

      Is there not a catalog of lines that they carry? Or can you show them a catalog or 2 examples of side table, 36″ high, wood/wood grain, price range $700 to $900? Some places are shameless. I HAD to have a conf table that seats 12—that doesn’t mean I’m buying $12,000 desks for each office.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        They don’t show us pricing…it’s a weird setup that I hate.

        We went to the showroom and they’re like “This is our stuff!” and we’re like “What’s the price tho?” “Oh we’ll have to get some prices for you.” And then they put together this junky ass proposal that breaks it down into literal pieces.

        Like we have a table. It shows “base = $100” and then “table top – $100”

        Like imagine breaking down a locking cabinet into “this is how much the LOCK costs, this is how much the screws cost, this is how much the sides cost.” it’s BIZARRE and I’m in manufacturing *_*

        I looked at like Costco’s website and was like “This kind of desk here, that’s like this.” and again, like each panel is broken out, with item numbers that are mumbo jumbo to anyone who isn’t manufacturing them.

    2. Stornry*

      Hm, sounds like they’re used to contracting for the government. We are nothing without our paperwork — and don’t get me started on the FORMS….

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        If it was just a bunch of line items, I’d be okay if you know, both proposals have them listed the same way. But this person is putting them all jumbled up AND now there’s a whole lot of random ones that weren’t there the first time. So I’m just extra ‘Explain yo’self!”

        It does remind me of some of the POs that I get from some of our government folks. They are insanely detailed when our invoices are just “This is your file number, we produced it, byeeeeeeeeeeee.” They never give us shit though, their paperwork is their own. They do get mad and fussy when their buyers don’t input the GD numbers right though and so our prices don’t match [often in their favor but no, they can’t pay us because they don’t match…I cannot charge you more…so I have to sit and spin while the buyer finally fixes the GD paperwork on their modifying end.]

    3. Llellayena*

      Seriously, just rent a u-haul for a day and go to Ikea. Their business furniture is actually pretty nice. I might also plan to hire their assembly guys though…

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        We currently have IKEA and our owner is like “Upgrade that, it looks as cheap as it was.” LMAO

        We are hiring assembly crew though, that’s for sure. Even the nice stuff is obnoxiously complicated. Cubicals are freaking insanely complicated I’ve only recently learned.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Cordless screw guns are an absolute necessity.
          I have personally done too many chairs. Who knew that we needed a 100,000 pieces for just ONE chair. Apparently, we do. I did a few at work then 8 more arrived at Volunteer Place. Eight more. I filled my car with the leftover packaging to go to the dump.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            I keep telling my boss that I’ve done enough furniture assembly in my life, lol. I’m not above it by any means but I’m mostly just bad at making them perfectly set. So I have wobbly ass stuff all the time.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Uh. It’s not you. It’s the cheap a$$ furniture. Even a desk costing 5k can be garbage. I just happen to know this first hand.

  200. rubble*

    Anyone have advice for handling car ownership questions with my boss?

    Context: I have a learner’s permit, not a driver’s licence – I can only drive with a supervising driver. I’m 23, most people here have their licence by 20yo. I’ll be getting mine very soon. My manager & boss have never directly asked me if I have my licence, so I’m pretty sure they assume I have it already.

    They know I share cars with my parents and don’t drive to work much. They’ve seen my parents come to get me at 11pm once or twice. Now they’re asking me when I’m going to buy my own car. I’ve given vague answers like “it’s in the works” or “eventually” but the thing is… I don’t want a car. I would use it once a week, *maybe*. I take the bus 99% of the time, the rest of the time my parents take me to/from work. I don’t like driving, there’s not enough space at home, and car + upkeep would wipe out half my savings in a year. my parents are fine with this arrangement! they would rather come get me than have another car to worry about.

    how do I shut down this line of questioning without making it a big deal? I work in fast food and am being trained for management, so I think they are trying to gauge how reliable I am. having a car would shave maybe 10 minutes off my commute, so it’s not a huge advantage.

    because it’s not a professional/office job, it’s hard to draw a “no personal questions” boundary. I am already the oldest non-manager employee and will be living at home for at least 2 more years (disability and studying). I’m starting to worry this is making me look immature.

    I really want to say “why do you care?!” next time, but that’s no good. help! what do I say/do?

    1. whistle*

      “No current plans for a car. [subject change]”

      If you think more is needed: “No current plans for a car. I’m really glad to have other reliable options. [subject change]”

      If you think you can joke a bit: “No plans yet, unless you’re hinting you want to get me one for my birthday.”

      If you really think that they are trying to gauge reliability for a promotion, it might make sense for you to find a good time (when things are slow etc.) to say to one of them “Hey, I know you’ve been asking about a car, and I just wanted to say that I don’t have any specific plans, but I am very careful about ensuring I’m able to get to work on time. I plan to keep up that record going forward whether I drive my own car or use other transportation options.”

    2. Close Bracket*

      This sounds like it’s a similar situation to the comment above about having an old car and what it says about someone! People assume that individual car ownership of a nice car is a desireable goal for all people. I’m betting this is part of what the motivation behind all the asking is. I don’t think you can or even need to shut it down. If you don’t want to make it a big deal, just don’t make it a big deal. Keep saying eventually, and follow it up with, “why do you ask?” If they say they they expect managers to have their own car, respond by saying you have access to a reliable vehicle to get you to/from work at any time necessary.

      This is really not a personal question. I think your biggest objection to it is that you feel judged (“I’m starting to worry this is making me look immature.”) Let it just be a question. Address any concerns about your ability to get to work, if there even are any, by addressing the actual concern.

      1. rubble*

        I think I will have to ask why they’re wondering next time it comes up. I’ve been so scared to say the wrong thing, but then I’m going to be on-edge constantly worrying about it, so that’s no good either.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think you just need to be more pointed about “It’s not in my plans” because then it’s less likely to come up again. Right now it sounds like you’re thinking about it, so they keep thinking it’s a lot shorter term than you are talking about.

      My response is “when my current one dies on me.” because everyone likes to talk to me like my car isn’t good enough, rme. Well prior to the new one because I crashed my beater last year. I get a decent car when I need it. I don’t need to upgrade. I don’t even upgrade my GD cell phone until it dies!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      With management positions come trade offs.
      They probably expect you to work all kinds of odd hours and are concerned about bus schedules and other arrangements.
      Honestly, if you want to go into management “shutting things down” is not a tactic you want to use much. I hope I can convince you to move away from this line of thinking…

      I think your best bet is to ask them why they keep asking. Be prepared to hear that managers are required to have their own cars in order to go to off-site training and fill in at other stores on a moment’s notice. If you can figure out a way to work with that, have your answer as to how you will handle that prepared and ready to go.

      Additionally, be prepared to hear that since you are using the car for work you will need to disclose that to your insurance company. Your employer may ask you for proof that you have disclosed. Yeah, insurance rates will go up.

      Stuff like this is fairly normal for retail/fast food. This is why they go through people like water. Take your time here and figure out what you really want. From what I see the people that last in these places are people who stay under the radar. These are the people who work part time, don’t say too much and do everything that is asked.
      Wishing you good luck for a good outcome.

      1. rubble*

        I don’t think driving to work counts as something you need to tell insurance companies, I wouldn’t be doing it mid-shift or anything. I’ve also been clear with them that I can’t work overnight, and having a car wouldn’t change that. They know I’m a student and won’t be available 24/7, and are fine with promoting me in these circumstances.

        Can you elaborate on what you mean by “Honestly, if you want to go into management “shutting things down” is not a tactic you want to use much. I hope I can convince you to move away from this line of thinking…”? I don’t see why not wanting to talk about personal things is a bad thing for management, you’re supposed to maintain profession boundaries, surely?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Okay so this is a number of questions running at that same time.

          Where I am going with this is if the job description shows that owning a car is required, then it is within reason to expect management will pull their offer to you.

          You have the right to say something is not doable and not give a reason. However, that right does not mean the employer will be able to flex on this point. So if you say, “Car is not doable” they could say, “Sorry, we have to pull the offer.”

          Sometimes local management can be more flexible than required by their upper management. So maybe this won’t be a problem. However, if an employee tells a boss they want to shut down a line of conversation or carries that tone in conversation then that conversation probably won’t go well. I’d suggest finding out if having a car is mandatory for the job first. If yes, then ask if they are able to work with your setting. “I don’t have a car and for immediate purposes I will not be getting one soon. Is this going to be a problem?”

          What I am saying this on years of experience and years of listening to what has happened to friends. They are asking about a car repeatedly for a reason. It would be good to find out what that reason is.

          1. rubble*

            nothing in any of the job description material mentions driving or personal transportation. I will have to try to get them to be more direct in conversation.

            1. valentine*

              Do managers have to work nights or randomly cover shifts?

              They’re right to worry that your availability depends on your parents (and the bus). Do you also live with your parents? What happens if neither of them is available and the bus isn’t running?

        2. Close Bracket*

          OK, but car ownership is not a personal question. Sure, getting on your case about living a particular lifestyle (ie, the car-owning lifestyle) can cross into “you really need to get over this and stop asking” territory, but car ownership is not the kind of personal subject where any discussion at all is a crossing of boundaries.

          You might notice that Alison frequently includes a “Can you tell me what’s going on with this?” type question in her scripts for addressing issues. When asked with genuine curiosity, this is how you find out what is behind a particular behavior. “I’ve asked you not to leave ferrets in the copy room, and I found two ferrets behind the paper stacks this morning. Can you tell me why you left ferrets in the copy room today?” Whether and how you shut something down depends on the answer to the question. “Oh, I see, these particular ferrets were left by mistake when the paper was delivered and will be picked up at 2:00 pm. Ok, but if this happens again, please let me know bc our policy very specifically prohibits ferrets in the copy room, and we will have to make arrangements in case of more accidental ferrets.” vs. “Oh, I see, you were hoping I wouldn’t find out. Go pick up the ferrets and don’t let it happen again.”

          This is the approach you need to take regarding the car. Ask, nicely, why they keep bringing it up. If they mention a work need, talk about how you will fulfill the work need. If they say grown ups should own cars, lightly brush it aside and say something lighthearted like, “Oh, I’m good with the way I get around now. Say, about that thing that everybody is talking about in the news…”

  201. Peridot*

    I just got a call for a phone screen! I’m excited but weirdly… I have never done a phone screen. They said it would be 15 minutes and I could ask a few questions about the position. But is there where I ask those questions I would ask in an in person interview like “What’s the workplace culture?” And “What’s a typical day like?” Or is that saved for later stage ? Is the phone screen where they ask you your salary range?

    1. Buttons*

      Your phone screen will likely be with a recruiter or HR who only has some basic knowledge of the overall position. They will ask you some basic questions about your resume and work history, and they will likely tell you a bit about the team and usually, they tell the salary range then, if not you can ask.

    3. Nicki Name*

      You can ask some basic stuff about the company, too. For instance, a few months ago, I had a phone screen with a company that had just been acquired by a company based in the UK. I asked if Brexit was likely to have any impact on the parent company. (The HR person, based in California, did not know what Brexit was.)

      They can typically answer general questions about benefits, too.

  202. Jdc*

    Well I was asked to share the crazy job postings I find in rural area I live in currently. Last week was bomb detonator.

    This week. Hog washer. Actually wash the love hogs.

    I knew finding a job here would be different but i truly didn’t expect this level of different.

      1. nep*

        One of my first questions would be, do the hogs like it? Because this would matter.
        Thanks for this. Interesting. (Bomb detonator!)

        1. Jdc*

          Good question. Now I kind i want to apply. Could I wash hogs and watch them wiggle their cute tails? Babies? So many questions I could be in for part of it.

          1. RagingADHD*

            From what I have seen of hogs, they are NOT cute. Pigs, yes. Hogs, no.

            A full-grown hog could eat you alive.

  203. KristinaL*

    Can you have one small business (just me working at it) that does 2 very different things, like doing software development and writing fiction books? Are there pros and cons to having them together or separate?

    2. WellRed*

      Probably not. In fact, can you have a business doing either? You’d need clients paying for your service or products, no? Software development, I know nothing about so maybe? But, unless you are a published author with a contract to produce more books, no. That’s not a business model, it’s a passion project.

      2. KristinaL*

        Even a passion project might earn a little money that might merit having taxes paid. I was thinking it would be easier to have 1 business that deals with any taxes for both.

      3. RagingADHD*

        There are plenty of indie authors with no publishing contracts who earn money and pay taxes on it.

        But it’s true that you have to you sell something to somebody before you worry about taxes.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Yes. You would be self-employed and report your income that way. My spouse and I produce and release/publish different types of digital and written media. We file taxes on that income as a “qualified joint venture.” If you are solo, it’s just normal self-employment. (In the US).

      Check with a local tax professional about requirements for creating a business entity vs. just doing business in your own name, or using a DBA informally. In my location, we can list a business name for promotional purposes, but we get paid under our personal names/social security numbers.

      In other areas, you may be required to register as a licensed business to operate at all. It all depends on local laws.

    4. HBJ*

      I know a lot of people who do this. They have an s-corp of some sort (LLC or inc.) and then have two or more DBAs. Some of them are extremely disparate. Think farming, photography and electrician. Or aquaculture and aircraft maintenance.

    5. Mimosa Jones*

      I believe the irs prefers you to have a separate schedule c for dramatically different services. I’m a programmer and teach llama yoga on the side and I do a schedule C for each. Both are just doing business under my name and no incorporation required. Since I file electronically, it’s not much more work to complete the extra form. I have a Manila envelope for each to collect 1099s and receipts.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’ll need separate books to support each one.

      You can operate under one parent company with assorted DBAs and consolidate into one tax file in the end. But records wise, you’ll need them separate for auditing purposes.

      I would suggest you see a local advisor because you don’t want to risk yourself as a sole practitioner if you don’t have to. At least with an LLC you’ll protect yourself if you need to expand or fold one day.

  204. nep*

    What’s the most unconventional thing you’ve ever submitted as a writing sample as part of a job application? And what was the outcome? (Granted it would depend on the type of job and the culture.)

  205. Chaordic One*

    Feeling guilty for calling in sick today and yesterday. I really do have a cold, sore throat, bronchitis, coughing, my voice sounds unusually low, mild fever and chills. I feel great when the cold meds kick in, not so great when they wear out. Maybe could have gotten some work done, but I’m not at my best.

    Slept all morning, and spent the afternoon eating chicken soup, drinking tea and looking at the internet and AAM. At least I’m not spreading the germs around and infecting everyone else. Hope I feel better by Monday and I’m back to work by then.

    1. nep*

      You poor thing. Hope you’ll get some good rest and feel better soon. Please don’t burden your mind and body with feeling guilty for calling in sick. You are listening to your body, and avoiding passing on your illness to colleagues.
      Peace

    2. WellRed*

      Don’t feel
      Guilty. Your coworkers thank you. Also, getting paid to work at half mast? Nah, take the day.

  206. Not Mindy*

    My friend Oscar was let go from his job last February. He had been there for 14 years and was successful for the first 13. Then he developed an attitude problem that led to a verbal warning, then a written warning, and culminated with his boss asking what would make him happy. His reply was ‘a package.’ Sure enough the following Monday he was presented with a package including 6 months severance. Since Oscar hasn’t applied for unemployment it’s unclear if he was technically fired or laid off.
    Oscar is now ready to get back into the working world. He wants to completely change his career. He worked in IT for a mid-sized company and is looking to get into something hands on like electrician or plumber. I know that he could be very good at it.
    My question is this: can he ask his former boss for a recommendation? I’m thinking about something that would acknowledge the bad ending and thank him for his support. Then go on to say that he’s going in a different direction and would appreciate a recommendation.

    1. What?*

      Uh, no. He had a bad attitude, did poor work (for a YEAR, if I’m reading you right?), and when his boss tried to address it he was a complete ass about it. He doesn’t get a good reference out of that! What’s to recommend about someone who does that!?

      Regardless of whether he was laid off or fired, he ended things really badly. It would look clueless and naive (at best!) to approach the boss now asking for a favour. Oscar screwed this up badly and now he needs to accept the consequences.

      If I was the boss, any such request from Oscar would come across extremely poorly.

      1. Not Mindy*

        That’s what I was afraid of. I was hoping that there would be a way to word it with an apology that would work.

      1. Not Mindy*

        He got 6 months severance pay and they covered his health insurance for 6 months. Which is why I was thinking it might qualify as not bring fired.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah, it sounds like Oscar burned that bridge.

      I mean, unless there is some weird circumstance where Oscar could claim he was going through some tremendous personal issues or strain that caused him to act erratic for a year, it’s unlikely that employer would ever give him a good reference.

      But some employers do not elaborate on the circumstances of the discharge and only give dates of employment.

  207. Utoh!*

    Coworker told me one of the employees she was helping with an issue found inappropriate photos on his company phone. She handed it back to him telling him to remove them. She came over to me visibly (and understandingly) upset and asked me should she tell her manager. I told her yes, she should. What the hell is wrong with people that they think it’s okay to have (she did not tell me specifically what was in the photos) that saved on a work phone? This guy shows up unannounced because he’s always complaining about his phone and wanting a new one. To me, being given a company phone, that you can pretty much use as you want, is a huge perk. I guess some people just take it for granted.

    1. pcake*

      I’ve had friends and even relatives that don’t seem to grasp the concept of “work phone”. They use their company phones for all sorts of stuff that couldn’t be considered work – they use them to play games, shoe shopping, hanging out on dating sites, sending and receiving personal texts and even sending personal emails, and for all I know some of them use their work phones to surf porn.

      They’re always amazed when/if the company finds out – some feel their privacy has been breached, some feel the company finding out was the result of magic, and some were shocked that it wasn’t okay to use their work phones for personal stuff – even though they had a perfect working personal phone with them all the time.

    2. andy*

      Work phone is not perk if the employee have to carry two phones with him as a result. It is annoyance. Pockets fits only one phone, so it automatically imply you have to carry a bag. Which is why the companies add the “can pretty much use as you want” – to make it less annoying.

      1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        To each one’s own.

        I have a separate company phone and wouldn’t have it any other way. My work phone is for work stuff ONLY.

        Among other things, if a phone that has any work stuff on it gets lost or stolen your employer may need to remote wipe it. I’d rather it not be my personal phone.

        I have a belt holster for my personal phone, and carry my work phone in my pocket.

  208. Retail not Retail*

    I had a crazy day today that started with getting the golf cart unstuck from the mud – no cliche spray on myself and i didn’t fall. The bulk of it was leaf removal in a very very muddy enclosure. My supervisor misjudged how many leaves and how muddy but we had fun! The way out stank and was scary, so we threw most of the bags up and over a moat and fence; throwing things is always fun.

    Anyway a couple weeks ago at our mandatory diversity/workplace respect talk, i said our work crew does not get any respect and they work really really hard. I had my bad coworker in mind (and everyone could tell), but I meant it in general as well! The next day, other employees thanked the guys and said they appreciated them which is so nice! And then the guys started thanking me. So this week has been muddy, literally poopy, wet, and sweet.

    The gist of my comments was this respect among employees is all well and good, but we’re not the only ones who work here and the crew should be here too.

  209. I'm just here for the comments*

    So I may be overthinking this, but I’m looking to go back to work after being a Stay-home parent for the last 3.5 years. All the interview advice I read says not to talk about kids and it’s not appropriate for the interviewer to ask about them. But, to explain the work gap do I still say “I stayed home to take care of family”? Or “I took time off for personal reasons “? Or a combination of “I was facing burnout and decided with my spouse it was the right time to stay home and take care of family and now I’m ready to re-enter the workforce”? Is there another spin to this that I’m not considering? FWIW, I’m looking at jobs that I can maintain a better work- life balance and not be in the exact same position as when I left but still be a part of my field.

    2. Anono-me*

      I think it’s fine to say you took a few years off to stay home with your kids while they were little. But then you want to Pivot to talk about how you stayed kept your skill-set current and stayed fresh professionally. What you want to avoid is talking about your children for the entire interview.

      Good luck on the job hunting.

  210. Teapot Translator*

    Mature students who also work or not thread!
    Sorry for being so late this week, but work was crazy today. Ugh.

    1. Teapot Translator*

      I forgot to say, I may not be able to reply to everyone who writes on the thread, but I read all replies!
      I had a discouragement moment this week. My dad has cancer and anyone who’s live through a family member’s illness knows how heavy it weighs on your mind. So, I did wonder this week, why I was taking so much on (work, university, exercise), what was the point. But I also think that if I stopped university, I would run the risk of never going back to it. So, for the moment, I’m continuing the class and all my activities, and I’m trying to study at my dad’s so I can spend some time with him.

  211. Hollypolloy*

    What do I owe to a company who doesn’t support the personal growth of its employees? I work for a small business, and there’s lots of opportunities for individual personal growth, like further classes and certifications and things like that, but the owner and head staff is really resistant to supporting their employees and agreeing to the paperwork! I admit the taking the time to focus on just one aspect of the job would mean that other people might need to step up to the rest of it, but if it helps the business in the long run, why wouldn’t they let it go for a year or something? I’m really frustrated by this and I’m wondering if I should just give up. Give up on further advancements since they don’t care? Or give up and find a new job?

    1. Filosofickle*

      Give up the job, don’t give up on your own growth! Frankly, you don’t owe your company anything other than doing a good job with a good attitude. You are free to leave when you need more (or something different) than they can offer. They should invest in people for the sake of both the business and retention, you’re absolutely right.

      One of my fav business memes:
      CFO: What if we invest in developing our people and then they leave us?
      CEO: What if we don’t, and they stay?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      It could be that they privately hold a goal of not growing in the ways you are asking about. They may want to go in a different direction. Odd stuff comes up. Around here small businesses do not advertise because word of mouth is already too much work for the company to handle.

      Not every business subscribes to the continuous growth model, either.

      It is a small biz and small businesses are famous for stagnation. So there is that also.

      You can find some really odd stuff going on inside small businesses.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Addressing your first sentence there: You really don’t owe anything to the company other than the work you do in exchange for your paycheck … and they really don’t owe you anything more than a paycheck in exchange for the work you do for them.

      If this job isn’t fulfilling you, then look for another job where part of your compensation package includes some of the time or funding for education that you feel you’re missing in this job.

  212. Retail not Retail*

    I went to the cattle call seasonal interview and I think it went really well but the whole thing was amusing!

    I drove downtown after the sun came up, found parking, walked to the site, and got starbucks afterwards. I was cosplaying office woman! Nice pants, nice shirt, least muddy boots… and rainbow sunglasses I thankfully remembered before going inside.

    All this to apply for a job with a description that included the phrase “getting your hands dirty”! It would have been funny to go to their last hiring event this week directly from work. “Hi, I’m interested in the outdoor job. Oh that smell? Well…”

  213. LS*

    I was contacted to interview for a position, but I already had vacation planned on the dates they suggested so I asked to reschedule and we decided on a date when I returned. The day I got back from vacation, I got sick and was still sick the day before the interview (I was waiting to see if I would get well enough to go). I emailed the interviewer explaining I was sick and asked to reschedule for the following week. She said they had some other interviews, but if they did not find their ideal candidate then she’d be open to meet with me. Turns out they didn’t, but I was still sick and I was too embarrassed to ask to reschedule the interview yet again, so I emailed withdrawing my candidacy. She thanked me for the email told me to get better. I now wish I had just had the courage to ask to reschedule again because I am really interested in the job. The position is still posted, so can I asked to be reconsidered after withdrawing? I withdrew about 3 weeks ago if that makes any difference.

  214. Misty*

    Any advice on picking a major in college?

    I’m currently majoring in social work but I find the classes low key depressing and don’t know if I can deal with that for the next two years. As for work, I’ve been a manager at a drug store for the past four years.

    I was considering changing my major to psychology but I am concerned about making a good choice since I want to eventually leave my job at the drug store after college. Any advice?

    1. Kraziekat*

      Pick something you can stand, and something you love. Like computer science for a major, and a creative writing minor. Something fun and easy, to give your brain a break. Is what I would recommend.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Social work is hard. There’s lots of despair and hopelessness.

      As far as picking something, I aimed for something that I was naturally good at and had options. For example, becoming a parakeet doctor would severely restrict my options. And I am not good with physically ill beings.

      Think about the course work you have done well with, this will tend to show you where you naturally gravitate. I did not do that great in science, it was a lot of work for me. I was a bit stronger in math. I did well in history and English classes. I tend to stay away from jobs that demand a high scientific ability.

      Additionally, you have managed a drug store for years, so this is very helpful insight as to what you know you can do well with. You can look for tangent ideas.

      1. Misty*

        The reason I am majoring in social work currently is because I felt like it can lead to jobs. The reason I feel like it leads to jobs is because my mom is a social worker, therefore I know a lot of social workers. I know people who went on to get their masters degree and then got their highest licensing and either work in an agency or private practice. I also know some people who just have their bachelors in sw and work in a group home or the mental hospital in our state. I also know a lady who does social work in the hospital and I could see myself doing her job (I shadowed her for a week once).

        I also like the idea of private practice or working in an agency. I think the reason I can picture myself as a social worker is because I’ve met a lot of them, heard a lot about their jobs, and have shadowed a few of them. I think it’s kinda like how a lot of my friends went into teaching or nursing – they could picture the job. I honestly have a hard time picturing any other job besides social work.

        I love working with the customers at the drug store but I do not like the managing aspect. I don’t like checking in vendors, sucking up to corporate, making schedules, counting money, or trying to meet money based goals set by corporate. Really the only thing I love is talking to the customers and helping them find things or listening to them.

        I do well in my english classes, psychology classes (I’ve already taken five) and any class that has a strong thinking/writing element such as I took intro to criminal justice, intro to sociology, a philosophy class, and a few history classes. I did all of these in order to complete my gen eds. The only classes I struggle in are math based and science based. I took biology and a bio lab and it was very hard for me. I had to get a tutor and study a lot more than any of my other classes I’ve took.

      1. Misty*

        I’ve already taken five psychology courses and found them very interesting and got good grades in them.

        I really like my psych classes and my writing classes. I am wary of majoring in psych because I’m not sure how it directly leads to jobs where as I know what I would try to do if I kept on with social work. I would get an internship junior (next year) and senior year, then try to go directly on for my masters. Then I would try to get my highest licensing and get my continuing education credits every year (20 every two year) like my mom and her friends do.

  215. Kraziekat*

    I feel like I dodged a bullet.

    Not even three weeks ago, I joined a company. For privacy sake, it’s Outside Teapots. A door-to-door poasition. I don’t sell The outdoor tea pots, I try to set appointments for thesales rep to come out and show what we have to go with Outdoor decore. It can be a profitable job. But right now, no one wants outdoor teapots, so it’s tough to get appointments.

    My schedule thus far was 1 week training, one week shadowing, and thiswas myfirst week soloing. I hadn’t made any appointments (see above) and neither had 3/4ths of the office. And despite not even finishing the week, I got let go.

    I feel angry at ‘Outdoor Teapots’ but also relieved. I already have another interview lined up (got blessed there) and I’m job searching again. But….

    Am I wrong to think, ‘at least give me a week before holding me to the same standards of experienced employees, geesh!‘

    1. Mimosa Jones*

      Wow, I’m sorry. I’d think you were let go because of finances and not due to your performance. Maybe sales for this period last year were higher and they realized they were better off reducing staff and hire again once sales pick up.

      2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        Often it’s both: When a company lets people go because of finances, they may pick which ones had the worst performance.

        Or possibly they got a bad impression of you in some way. They may or may not have let go everyone who had made no appointments. For example, they may have felt you weren’t personable enough so you weren’t likely to improve, whereas others they assumed just had a steeper learning curve.

  216. Emily*

    My manager went on maternity leave this week so I have a new manager for the next… I don’t know… 6 months? Perhaps longer as this could be a permanent reshuffle? In my team, we work on lots of different projects and have different managers which sometimes reflect the projects we are working on, but sometimes doesn’t, but the leaders do tend to give work more to the people they manage. My new manager is someone else in the team that I haven’t worked super closely with previously (I worked exclusively with my old manager but that has begun to change). I have a meeting with my new manager on Monday, presumably to talk about goals and things I want? I really am craving more direct mentoring than I previously got and want to indicate that, but I’m otherwise at a loss as to how to prepare. I feel like I should prepare as I would for a review? Any tips on how to get the relationship off to a great start?

    1. Sara(h)*

      I would let her take the lead, which will give you a sense of what she has in mind for the purpose of the meeting. If she hasn’t been specific about that, she probably just wants to get to know you a bit and check in.
      Whenever I’m meeting with a new manager for the first time, I find it helpful to ask a few questions about management style, preferences, etc. Do they prefer emails for quick questions, or instant messaging, or that you just pop into their office? Do they prefer if you save all your non-urgent questions for your regular periodic check-ins, or should you ask as the questions come up?
      Given the opportunity, you can also let them know areas where you are seeking to grow or improve, what some of your goals are, etc. But I wouldn’t think of this as in-depth as an annual review. Probably more high-level stuff without getting into a lot of detail, unless she asks you questions that lead you down that path.

  217. Shy Boo*

    So the company I work for is one of those that reaches out for internal hires first before posting publicly, but this is the first time I’m applying for one such position in my entire time here (over a year, which is rather long as I’m in a typically high turnover job right now). They’re opening a whole new department so they’re going to be hiring a lot of people into various positions for it and it focuses on say, teapot design, which is what I’d really love to do, as opposed to teapot sales (which I’m in and currently trying to get out of).

    I’m mostly worried that it may be too out of my reach though. Even though I technically meet the experience requirements for years in my current role (if they count my experience at other places with it) it sounds like it would be a mid-management role and I’ve only been an entry level person (at most I’ve divvied out tasks as an assistant to a manager in past jobs) and honestly, while the job description is detailed, it still leaves me confused on what the person will actually do (and there’s no way to compare as this is the first time the company has had this position). That said, if it is a huge focus teapot design, it’s right up my alley in what I already do as a freelancer and I’d obviously love to switch over to that.

    That said, if they do determine I’m too under-skilled/don’t have enough management experience for it, is there a good way to say “hey, even if you pass on me for management position, can you keep me in mind for other lower position?” They haven’t posted the other positions yet but we know they’re coming and I really want to move over into that department when it happens.

  218. Jailbreak to a city: how-to?*

    This might sound a bit rambly and whiny. I’m a bit desperate for advice; apologies in advance.

    I’m getting pretty fed up with my current work/life situation, and I don’t think I can function without changing living area.

    I ended up having to make a rather drastic living change owing to a sudden family death that nuked a lot of money overnight. I had been getting a Master’s in a West Coast city, but had to move near family in the rural Northeast because rent was no longer tenable, and I was in a shitty end-of-lease situation that may have made me homeless had I stayed in the city I loved. I’ve been staying here ever since, and I’ve only recently been able to work because it took me *that long* to get through the grief of losing my father overnight (had lost my mom a couple years before).

    Here’s my problem:
    Right now I’m working again, but it’s part-time in foodservice/waitstaff. I like this place a lot, and my bosses are among the best I’ve ever had. The problem is… I know I can do better, because I finished a four-year STEM degree before working on my Master’s. And if I were to do things again, I probably would have gone for a math PhD route, or an architecture/digital art route (Architecture was my minor in undergrad). Instead, I got my ass kicked by bad luck and my own shitty mental health. And I feel my resume getting more stable by the day.

    I feel like I’m at the end of my rope, because I keep seeing people coming up here from NYC complaining about how it’s “too busy” down there, and I want to scream at them because they don’t know how good they have it. I’d kill to be able to use public transportation again (don’t drive); I’d kill to be near actual museums and theaters again and not just live out in a bloody desert.

    I think I need to make a professional transition that lets me do what I’d like to do with my life, which is somebody kind of software work, with time out of work to do art stuff – or hell, maybe go back into digital art or architecture. And then get to a city. A friend invited me to her place in a urban area, and I feel more alive than I have in years. I know now that I really have to go back someplace like this, and I can’t accept my family’s excuses of “iT’s ExPeNsIvE tO mOvE” or “fLoWeR wHeRe YoU’rE pUt” anymore. I’m sick and tired of looking myself in the mirror and beating myself up because I’m not using my full potential.

    Is there anyone who’s managed a transition like this successfully? What has it taken to achieve it? What specific steps would you recommend I take, and what kind of timeline should I plan on?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I hope you get some answers, because I think there are people here who can have valuable inputs. If you don’t get many answers try to post earlier next week.

    2. I'm just here for the comments*

      Ok, so I’ve been reading your post, and my caveat is that I haven’t been in the exact same situation as you, but maybe I can offer some ideas to think about? I apologize if you’re further along in your career and looking for different advice but this is based on the impression I get from your posting.
      I think there’s two parts to your question that while intertwined, you may have to consider individually.
      The first is your career- what kind of job do you want, what field do you want it in, what are you good at and what are you passionate about and do you need to combine those two things or keep them separate? You mentioned several different things (STEM, math, architecture, art), so one search would be to look at job postings that are directly related or contain elements of your interests and strengths. You mentioned NYC, but would you also consider the surrounding areas or cities? Would you consider a larger town or smaller city if it had the job you wanted? You didn’t mention a work history or how far along in your career you are, so you may be looking at entry level jobs, but also check out higher level jobs that you could work your way into. Does the company offer training, tuition reimbursement? Does it seem like they’re investing in their employees? Glassdoor, Indeed.com, and (maybe) Linkdin are your friends to start your search. Can you find a job that uses your STEM degree (play to your strengths here) and develop your art skills on the side? This is all stuff to think about and play with, and just because you apply doesn’t mean you have to accept the offer if you realize it won’t work for you. I would also advise that you don’t get caught up looking for “perfect” but just something that works well-enough that you can use it to advance yourself.
      The second part of your question is examining where you want to live and quality of life. City living is (typically) expensive (as you already know), so could you look for living situations that are outside a city but along a commuter rail? Are you opposed to roommates or renting a room in someone’s house? Are you good with commuting into a city for your social needs but living where rent is cheaper? Many smaller cities/larger towns also have the social scenes you want, but on a smaller scale. For moving- can all your stuff fit into a U-haul (or similar company) rental moving truck? Would your future employer help with relocation expenses?
      There was a post and update on AAM a little while ago about a lady who was trying to relocate to London (the topic line was about video interviews), and she successfully found a job she loved in the career she wanted by applying to a smaller city outside London (competition wasn’t as fierce and the London market was saturated), and she was loving where she was.
      Instead of timelines, I would set goals for myself, such as “apply to X jobs/week” and “save X amount of money/per month”. So much of your timeline is going to depend upon how fast the companies move with interviews and hiring, but if you have something in the works then you’ll always have a chance. I’ve seen advice on here about mentioning your willingness to relocate (in the cover letter, I think) but definitely read through the archives here.
      I hope this helps get you started and good luck with your career.
      I’m sorry about your parents

    3. LabTechNoMore*

      So, my situation wasn’t as bad as yours, but I did transition from rural college town to major coastal city across the country within a few years (Going on 3 years now. Though it’s been a gradual process with major milestones along the way.). My route involved a rocky career transition, including half a year of unemployment, and a string of bad entry-level jobs in the new career, but at least I’m here! I (kinda-sorta) made it! Frankly, I’m still not finished getting settled in to my new career, and still need to find a good job in my this field, but overall I’m glad I made it to where I am now.

      I’ve never been the type of person that can network well, or crash with friends in the new area while job searching, so I job searched from across the country as an experienced professional in my previous career in the several major metropolitan areas that I could see myself moving to. At this point I had no intention of switching careers entirely, just getting into a a more lucrative specialty within the industry.

      After many an application, I finally got an interview. The job didn’t seem too great, but from across the country I knew I had to take what I could get. I didn’t have the funds for a cross-country move, so I took out a personal loan. (Some employers will also be willing to help, either through a relocation bonus or pay advance.) I was in the suburbs for a year before deciding that I wanted to live in the city proper.

      Having also realized my old career would never pay enough for me to live in the city and pay for luxuries such as heat and student loan debt, I decided to make the switch. I took on new technical skills, reformatted my resume to match the target industry, and highlighted past projects in my previous career that matched the target industry’s work. (The work was actually quite similar, but anyone without expertise in both fields wouldn’t have realized that.) After another long, arduous job search, I took the first job I was offered and regretted taking the job almost as soon as I started.

      The thing about switching careers is you have to go through the whole no-experience, no-job cycle all over again, which substantially limits your job prospects. In terms of work history, my resume is Swiss cheese, but I’m at least glad to live in the city that I’ve been dreaming of living in for quite some time now.

      More practical tips: If you want to get a Software Engineering job, learn more programming languages, specific to the niche you think you have the best shot at. You can get a better sense of this by looking at which programming languages are listed in job postings. It would also help to understand the distinction between the tried-and-true programming languages and the trendy languages. (The latter help with startup jobs, and make your application more desirable, but have a shorter shelf life.)

      Some terribly annoying things about getting tech jobs: 1) They’re listed as all senior level. Every single one. And the few that aren’t will be terribly under-compensated and treat you poorly. 2) The interview process is very time-consuming and brutal. Lots of phone interviews, followed by a tech challenge and video conference, followed by a full-day onsite interview (which may or may not include more technical challenges). 3) The technical challenges are completely ridiculous. If your degree isn’t specifically in CS, study up on algorithms and data structures, and spend time on brain-teaser type coding challenges. (The website hackerrank is a good resource for this.) 4) Lots more sexism, racism, ageism, ableism, homophobia, and doesn’t-fit-into-our-narrow-set-of-very-privileged-life-circumstances-isms, both during hiring and on the job. Your life circumstances or geographic location may occasionally be a hard sell for the interview team.

      The nice thing is that if you can ace the technical interview (I’m a terrible test-taker, so my own bias might be showing through there.), and charm the dozen or so interviewers, you’re in! Having a STEM degree definitely helps, and knowing the right combination of tech acronyms also helps substantially. There are also many remote positions on the market, but competition for those will be fierce. However, there are also lots of positions available and many tech companies that pay for relocation, so those may be your best avenues to move, provided you’re set on the software-related career route.

      In any case, good luck with your relocation! I recognize the draw of the citylife, and hope you manage to find your way over here too!

  219. Fikly*

    I have come to realize I have a problem taking vacation days, but I think it’s not the typical one many people have.

    I do not go on “vacations,” by which I mean trips that involve travel. That is mostly because I cannot afford to. But because I have no formal plans, and I am a kind of person whose life is very grounded in routine, I just kind of forget to take a random day of vacation here or there.

    At the end of last year, my manager talked with me and basically said, you need to take more time off (weird problem to have, right?) and I ended up taking one day PTO a week for the last 6 weeks of the year.

    This week at our 1-on-1, she brought it up again, and I agreed with her that when I did take the occasional day, it was nice to have the break, but I just tend to forget about it.

    However! I just finished working 7 days in a row. This was mostly an accident, from swapping shifts, and because apparently I cannot count (I honestly thought it was 6 days until day 3). On day 7, I realized just how tired I was, and said to my manager, you know how we just talked about taking the occasional day off? Could I do one next week? And she said yes, and she thought it was a wonderful idea, and I am patting myself on the back for both thinking of it and speaking up.

    Ideas for how I can sort of work this into my routine so as to occasionally do a day off, but not take a whole big chunk at once? For what it’s worth, I get unlimited PTO, but the general guideline is to aim for 20 days a year.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      At one point I had close to 4 weeks of vacation time. It was ridiculous given my salary, I would not be taking nice trips.
      Where I landed was the first of each year, I mapped out my time off. Sometimes it was basic math- I have 20 vacation days divided by 12 months in the year. I plotted out days so that I was always looking forward to a day off.

      Other times friends/family would plan a long trip so I would put my vacation time down for when the company was coming.

      Twice I hired contractors and took the week off to be home while the contractors where here.

      And there were things such as I knew I needed to see the dentist in June. Eh, take the day off, why not.

      Even if you just plot out half your vacation days in this manner that is still a big step forward.

      1. Fikly*

        That is a really good idea, thank you! I hadn’t thought about it this way.

        I have been anxious about doing this in the past, because I have so many chronic unpredictable health issues, but I also have unlimited sick time, so it’s safe for me to plan actual vacation days. (This is worth more to me than being able to take expensive vacations!)

        Planning to take one day off each month, and then leaving the rest as sort of flex depending on need sounds pretty awesome. And I effectively get extra ones too, because I have a position with coverage needs, so I end up with floating holidays.

        Thank you!

    2. MissDisplaced*

      If you don’t like taking whole weeks off, start planning extended weekends by taking off a Friday and Monday every month or so.

      Also, pad in an extra day or so around holidays.

    3. Rexish*

      My issue is that I wasnt to use my PTO when I do something but since there is a limited time I want to make sure it is worth it. I’m scared to use them cause then they are gone. What if I get a fun offer to go on holiday somewhere and I no longer have PTO? I’d like to use a few weeks just to chill at home wihtout any pressure, but is it worth it if it means I cannot use it later to do something more fun?

  220. PhD Panic*

    I just finished my first interview for a PhD program and I’m starting to feel super nervous about it. The PI of the lab I was applying to didn’t ask me any questions, and while I asked many to him, I feel like I didn’t really get to explain how I could be a good fit with the program. Is this a normal experience?

  221. Amethyst*

    I submitted an internal application for a full-time job that was a dead ringer for my last position (part-time, but was basically working full-time hours) at one of our companies & got rejected because I haven’t been at my current position for a year. This was a major blow for me. *sigh* I LOVED my last position & would’ve still been doing it if they hadn’t laid me off & given my job to someone else who’d been there longer.

    I was told a couple days ago that I needed to slow down on my work cuz at the rate I’m going “there won’t be any work left for anyone else to do.” This department I’m in now relies on work given to us by other people &, while there’s no real deadline to get stuff done, we have to get everything in for the month by 11 AM of the first working day of the new month for closing purposes. All of us were hired for our efficiency & high accuracy rate. We’re still worried about layoffs although we’ve been assured that there aren’t any looming on the horizon by our VP. Being told to slow down with work I can do in my sleep is…really disheartening.

    On top of that, I’m still told every now & then that my current department wishes I was still in my old position because they just loved how I did things: “They made SENSE. Everything was in ORDER, nothing was missing, & if there was, you pre-empted our questions by highlighting the missing one & notating why it was missing on the cover sheet. & you were on top of things, chasing things down within the week & having the hard copy ready for us. We didn’t have to nag you like we do with Fergusina, who just ignores us until we complain to Boss about it.” While it’s wonderful to hear how much I’m missed in my old position, it’s super awkward.

    I’m not sure where I’m going with this. I just miss my old job & want to return to it. I love my current workplace, but I know they underpay us all for the work we do, & purposefully classify certain positions as part-time when they should be full-time. I’ve been looking elsewhere but haven’t found anything yet.

  222. Joanne Pan*

    For those who applied for federal positions that are open to the general public, how did you make yourself competitive with other hiring authorities? I applied for a position with the Federal Register, doing the same thing I’m doing now but on the federal side – and was told that although I was qualified, I wasn’t able to get the job because I was competing with veterans and displaced federal employees.

  223. Hopeful*

    I had an interview this week and there were so many red flags. I was sent the position through a staffing agency, so I didn’t apply directly to the position or speak with the employer beforehand.

    #1: I was interviewing for two different positions at the same time, but I wasn’t told it beforehand. The staffing agency sent my resume over for Position A, but the agency said they wanted to interview me for Position B. I prepared for the interview for Position B, but when I got there, I ended up interviewing for both positions.

    #2: When I asked about the company culture, the interviewers described it as a “dysfunctional family.” I know Alison has said that companies that describe their workplace as a family is a red flag and describing it as a dysfunctional family made me incredibly wary.

    #3: In the conversation about describing the workplace culture, one of the interviewers started describing how he flipped off his predecessor when she left. According to him, he’s been texting middle finger emojis to her and was in the process of getting her address to mail them to her. I don’t know if that was a running joke between them, but it felt incredibly inappropriate to do in the first place, let alone tell a potential job candidate about it.

    I credit AskAManager for helping me recognize the potential red flags in an interview and for the confidence to tell the staffing agency about the interview and that I wanted to withdraw myself from consideration for the position. I was laid off from an incredibly dysfunctional workplace and I didn’t want to go through that again.

  224. Kinami*

    It may be too late to get a reply, but I’m hoping someone will see this because I could really use some advice!

    I started working part-time for a non-profit since September last year. I flubbed the salary requirement question in my interview (was unprepared and couldn’t give a good answer). I still got the job and, while the salary was a little lower than I’d hoped, it seemed reasonable for a non-profit.

    A few months later they offered me an additional position (basically, two part time positions that would equate to me working full time and getting benefits). The hourly salary would remain the same, and the way they told me that felt like there wasn’t room to negotiate then, either.

    Now, the person who was supposed to be the coordinator for my second position has resigned. It turns out that she hadn’t been doing much coordinating, and I’d unwittingly been doing several things that should have been her responsibility. The boss noted this, said I’d been doing a great job, and asked if I was inserted in taking over part of the coordinator position. (I’d take over the duties for my office, while the rest would be given to someone else in another office location.) I told her I was interested and we had a couple discussions about what the position would entail and how to make it work with my other responsibilities. We had to cut the second discussion short, though, and I didn’t get a chance to bring up a salary increase.

    After that, it seems she told a few people that I would be taking over the coordinator role. While I’m flattered and excited about the opportunity, I haven’t officially accepted the new role, and I would definitely want an increase in salary before I accept. I’m worried that my initial flubbed answer about salary requirements is making it seem like I’m a pushover (and tbh I’m also worried that I am a bit of a pushover).

    How do I backtrack to the salary negotiation part of the hiring process when my boss has already told people I’ve got the job?

    1. valentine*

      Say that, as the discussion was cut short, you want to be sure to continue it. Get clarity on how the 2.5 roles mesh. Are they only separate on paper or is there a grant that limits your hours? Do you have to keep track of hours spent on the current two roles and how would the salary increase play out? Would it even out across roles? Does the coordinator bit become part of role 2 and which role’s tasks are you meant to prioritize?

      I like what bleh says below, but make it a discussion, not a Q&A because if you say, “I need to know xyz,” versus “How are we prioritizing?” you’ll be stuck yet again feeling like she gave you a final answer. Practice lobbing the ball back. If she says, “The hourly would be the same,” you say you were looking for qrs because of the increased tasks/level of both role 2 and the coordinating.

    2. Bananatiel*

      You’ve gotten good advice already but I just recently met someone who had a very solid, professional arrangement with a 2-in-1 FT role that is made up of what were formerly two PT roles. Things are very clearly laid out in terms of responsibilities and hours worked for each of the two roles. It’s so clearly delineated that she actually has a dedicated day of the week for the secondary role that got added on so that she’s able to tell people “Sorry, I can’t get to this until Wednesday”. Just thought I’d throw that out there that it’s not an acceptable excuse for there to be muddy/unclear guidelines. It’s a warning sign that they may just continue to add to your role without paying you more or offloading work.

  225. bleh*

    I would just ask for a meeting and say something like: I’ve heard others assuming I will take on coordinator role, and it seems like we should talk more about what these changes would look like before the rumors get worse. (Even if you know she told them, you can pretend they just assumed.) While I’m interested in the coordinator role, I need to know what tasks will come to my plate, what tasks will leave my plate and what type of salary increase comes with the position before I commit. As Alison always says, just talk as if -of course there would be a salary bump because of course there should be. You could also ask for a job description and salary range if you would do better asking for documentation than a conversation. Just act as if this is a normal procedure. Pleasant and warm. Good luck

  226. Kinami*

    Yeah, the lack of guidelines/undefined increase in workload is exactly what I’m worried about. My first two roles were clearly defined, with x hours per day for Job A and x hours for Job B. This one is kinda Job B+, without enough explanation of what that looks like and how to prioritize.

    Thank you all for the advice and for helping me put that into words. I’ve emailed my boss and will let you know how it goes!

  227. LobstaMobsta*

    Late to the party and probably petty of me, but I found out today that my old, toxic workplace still hasn’t found a replacement for me and I am riding the righteous wave of karma right now. My role was WAY overloaded and I can only imagine how much they’re hurting right now without any of the components I brought to the team.

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