why do companies lead candidates on about salary?

by Alison Green on March 29, 2021

A reader writes:

I recently had a bizarre interview experience. I applied for a job that’s the same title as the one I currently hold, at another company that’s similar in many ways to my current one. I had a phone interview with the person who would be my boss at the new company that went very well. We later set up a meeting to have an in-person interview. After this interview, he emailed me about salary expectations and said, “It’s helpful for us to know, so we can avoid leading on any candidates and then realizing we’re low-balling them in the offer stage.” I told him what my current salary was and explained I’d be interested in a 15% increase at a new role.

He said great, and the process moved forward. I completed an exercise which he said the team was impressed with. He asked me to come back to the office and meet with six other team members for interviews. I took the day off from work and went. All of the interviews went well, and I felt great about my chances. The team even implemented a bunch of my ideas after speaking with me. This whole process took about 50 days.

I was offered the job. But remember when he asked about salary in order to avoid leading candidates on and low-ball them in the offer stage? That’s exactly what happened. They offered me nearly $10,000 below my current salary. I, of course, told them I could not take a pay cut. He responded by saying that he spoke with the executive team and they can’t get close to what I’m making now, but hopes we can work together in the future when our “budgets better align.”

What gives? Why would they have me invest so much time and effort into this process and offer me the role only to tell me that they can’t afford me? Why would he ask about salary to refrain from leading me on or low-balling and then do exactly that? I’m genuinely so confused and extremely frustrated.

I answer this question over at Inc. today, where I’m revisiting letters that have been buried in the archives here from years ago (and sometimes updating/expanding my answers to them). You can read it here.

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{ 160 comments }

{ 160 comments… read them below }

  1. New Mom*

    I’m so annoyed on your behalf. That is so obnoxious. But I think you did dodge a bullet. It’s very frustrating how compensation is so smoke and mirrors in the hiring process when it’s one of the top deciding factors for both applicant and the company. I once applied for a job that asked for salary expectations, which I answered. Then the hiring manager told me that there was a set hourly wage for the role for all student workers, so… why ask?

    1. MusicWithRocksIn*

      Once I went to a interview in a hotel attached to an airport – so it was super hard to get to. Had to pay for airport parking and walk probably about a mile from my car to the interview place. Just a big pain. When I sat down they told me “The salary is (very low amount) and we know that won’t work for most people so we wanted to ask you now if you are still interested.” This was after I did a phone interview and an online test, you couldn’t of asked then??

      I did need a job though and my weak spot was interviewing, so I lied to their face and told them I was still interested, and went through with the interview as a practice thing so I could improve my skill. It actually helped a ton because it took all the pressure off, and the answers came a lot easier, which was able to help me be more relaxed in future interviews because I knew I could do it well. But how many people made that long trip out to the airport hotel and then just had to turn around and go home once the people admitted they would be paying peanuts? What is the point of that?

      1. FrivYeti*

        That sounds specifically like they’re trying to sort for employees who will put up with anything, to be honest. Deliberately set up an annoying situation, offer bad news right at the start of it, and then don’t hire anyone who pushes back.

    2. AL*

      “It’s very frustrating how compensation is so smoke and mirrors in the hiring process when it’s one of the top deciding factors for both applicant and the company.”

      Yes, for sure! I don’t understand why employers are so coy about salary ranges when it’s also in their best interest not to be. If a company is evasive and a candidate gets all the way to the end of the hiring process only to turn down the job because it’s below their desired range, that’s a big waste of time both for the candidate and the company. Fortunately, lately I’ve been seeing more companies list their ranges up front in the posting and/or tell me their ranges on the first interview (either unprompted or when I ask them).

  2. boop the first*

    Whoa 50 days and they asked you for ideas they could immediately use? Was this an interview or a (now) free consultation? Grr

    1. starsaphire*

      “Free consulting work” was my thought too tbh.

      The cynical part of me wonders if there even was really a position, considering how low the lowball salary was.

    2. KHB*

      Yeah, I remember this letter when it first appeared, and I remember thinking that these people never intended to hire anyone. They got a bunch of work out of you for free, and then they gave you an offer they knew you wouldn’t accept.

        1. Elenna*

          Yeah, that was my thought too – advertise a fake job, get a bunch of free ideas, and then don’t accept anyone. Ew.

          1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

            Or worse yet – “they were no damn good” and they continue the “interview cycle”.

      2. Hamish*

        Interesting, is that term related to the brewery?

        I always thought they were a bit shady with their “equity for punks” thing, fundraising from individuals and trying to seem like indie startup outsiders when both of the founders are sons of very successful whisky industry guys.

        1. Yellow Warbler*

          Yes, from them ripping off multiple marketing/advertising applicants. It was all over Twitter several times; easily searched if you’re so inclined.

    4. 1234*

      THIS. I think they did this to the OP on purpose. Use their ideas and offer them the “job” but make sure to come in with an offer they won’t take.

    5. irene adler*

      I think it brings a whole new definition to the term “consultation”. It is now a “con”sultation.

    6. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      And sometimes companies will set up interviews for the hiring manager’s amusement. During the time I was out of work in 1990, I was subject to two of those.

  3. irene adler*

    Bill them for the work/ideas you did provide.

    Yeah, I know, that won’t go far. It might make someone think a bit-maybe about what they did to the LW, or how to better disguise their methods of procuring free work from future job candidates.

    1. Bostonian*

      This part made me so mad. Using the candidate’s “test” in real work was easily the most outrageous thing about this whole scenario.

    2. Cat Tree*

      No, as obnoxious as this employer’s behavior is, you can’t retroactively bill for something when there was no agreed payment in the first place. It will come off as petty and out-of-touch. Many of the people who work at this place will move around to various places within the industry and they’ll bring their perceptions of OP with them if she sends a bill, even if she never expects to get paid.

      The better way to deal with this kind of thing in the future is to politely bow out of the interview process when these ridiculous demands start to arise, and/or leave an honest review on Glassdoor.

      OP could write the invoice but then never send it, as a therapeutic exercise. But actually sending it won’t “send a message” to the company and will only hurt OP. The company knows exactly what they’re doing and won’t change because of an angry letter.

      1. TardyTardis*

        How would it hurt OP? Surely people in the industry know how this company works already. Burning a bridge with those thieves? Hand me the matches.

  4. Xavier Desmond*

    Imo employers shouldn’t advertise jobs without at least a salary range. Imagine when you’re buying a house, having to view the property, get a survey done and arrange a mortgage before the seller would name the price.

      1. The Original K.*

        If I do apply for a job without a range listed and the company reaches out to me, I ask about salary up front if they don’t bring it up in that initial conversation. I went through a similar experience as the OP (gave them a salary range in the application, went through three rounds of interviews and a short exercise over about six weeks, and the offer was $10K below the bottom of the range I’d selected), and once bitten, twice shy.

          1. The Original K.*

            They either tell me or they ask what salary I’m looking for. If I’ve applied to a role that doesn’t list a salary range, it means I’ve done some research on what the salary should be based on the title, industry, and employer and made an educated guess that the salary is in line with my expectations and wishes. If my research tells me that the salary is half the market value for my skills and experience or half what their competitors are offering for the same role, I just don’t apply. If it turns out I’m wrong, I’d rather know that as close to the beginning of the process as possible.

        2. Justme, The OG*

          I applied to a company that not only didn’t list any salary in the job posting, the first question in the phone interview was my salary expectations for the position. They didn’t like me asking what the range they had in mind was.

          1. allathian*

            Yeah, that sort of thing is a red flag. They just want to hire people as cheaply as they can get them.

        3. NJ Anon*

          I do the same. Not going to waste my time or theirs. If the don’t want to play, I move on.

      2. Elenna*

        Eh, I get what you’re going for, but I think it really depends on location and the type of jobs you’re searching for – if I’d refused to apply to jobs without a listed range for my last job search, I would have applied for exactly zero jobs.

        1. BigBodyBill*

          I agree. Most jobs I see don’t have a salary or range listed. It used to be that internal jobs at my company would at least post a pay range, but they stopped doing that several years ago. Like The Original K., that is something I discuss in my first interview so no one wastes their time. I interviewed for a job in my same field at a different company about 5 years ago, and we were VERY far apart. I was shocked to be honest. They said if they hired me at that salary, they would have to adjust every one of their employees’ salaries. My response was that they should probably look into doing that because they were way below market (by like $50k!). I said this very professionally, of course, and they appreciated the honesty. The interview was informal because I actually knew them. I would not have said that in any other situation.

      3. JM in England*

        I’m very suspicious whenever a job ad lists the salary as “Negotiable”, “Competitive” etc. Just give a number already!

        1. Sammie*

          So I’m an agency recruiter. When I first get a job, I’ll ask the client for their budget. They’ll give a number. On average, maybe 40% of my placements have ended up being within 5k of that number. It’s almost impossible at the start of a process to put anything other than a decently wide range because you don’t want to risk missing out on someone great just because of salary. Qi

          Here’s the problem when you put a Wide range. A lot of candidates are great, they’ll do their research, know their value and calculate where they sit in that range. A lot of candidates, also seriously overestimate their value. They’ll apply for a role at the junior end of the experience level, and then complain if they don’t receive the maximum budget because they think a company should pay the absolute max they can afford for every position.

          I was actually taught during training to essentially lie. Tell the client the candidate wants more than they really do and then tell the candidate the client will offer less than they actually will. Ethically I don’t agree with it, but at least then everyone walks away feeling like a winner.

          1. TardyTardis*

            Except for the people who really are worth that kind of money–they’ll walk. What you’ll have *left* are the people who actually are overestimating themselves, thus perpetuation the cycle.

            Let’s be real, you also have a bunch of cheap companies, but we know the applicants have to be blamed for it.

    2. Snailing*

      At best, it shows a lack of due diligence in being able to justify why specific candidates fall where they do within their budgeted salary band, and at worst it shows they’re trying to get people as cheaply as possible. Neither is a good sign in an employer.

    3. violet04*

      When my husband was laid off last fall he applied to a lot of jobs where the salary ranges were not listed. He applied to an HVAC position that required 1-2 years of experience (he has 20 years experience) and some refrigeration experience. He got to the interview process and found out they were only paying $14/hr. If they had put that info in the job description then he wouldn’t have even applied to spent time at the interview.

    4. Texan In Exile*

      Or get a haircut.

      I just tried to get prices for a hair cut and color. The site says prices “start at X.”

      When I asked what they “finish at,” they wouldn’t give me an answer. It varies by stylist, they told me.

      Too. Much. Work.

      Just give me the number and then I will decide.

      1. Miniature House*

        I called an optometrist office to ask how much a contact lens exam was. The receptionist refused to tell me and would only say the doctor would decide if I “qualified” to wear contacts after a decade of having them and absolutely refused to budge. I told her I needed a price to budget for it and it was a no go. I went to Costco where the price is on the damn wall. I do work in a field with somewhat opaque pricing, but if someone asks we will give a full estimate without question.

        1. anon for this*

          Gyms are like that too. Many won’t tell you the price unless you come in and take a tour. And then I heard that they give better pricing to the young, fit, and attractive folks to use them as bait for others.

          1. TardyTardis*

            Well, except for the ones in some towns where the gym would collapse without the Silver Sneakers program…

          2. allathian*

            I guess I’m glad these things don’t happen where I am. Gym membership prices, etc. are always posted openly. I’m not sure if it’s actually illegal to offer more attractive people a membership for less money here. Actual sponsorship deals with, say, social media influencers, are another matter entirely.

            It used to be common here for hairdressers who cut both women’s and men’s hair to post different prices by gender, but this is considered unethical and discriminatory now. Sure, most male hairstyles take less effort and require fewer products than female hairstyles, but if a woman wants a buzz cut, it’s discriminatory to charge the same amount as for a woman who wants a restyling to a new layered cut, simply based on gender. Similarly, a guy who wants a more complicated cut pays for it like female clients do.

      2. Liz*

        it’s like when you look at hotel prices or airfare. You’ll SEE a price, then go to their website, and find its the book now, non refundable option, no cancellations allowed, and the rates that allow some flexiblity, are always higher. drives me crazy even though now I know the price you initially see isn’t going to be what you actually pay

        1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

          Well, that is the case – airline flights from $49 but they’re from Akron to Milwaukee on a Tuesday night.

          But I don’t have a problem with “Starting from”…. if you want to take your kids to Disney on school vacation week, the flights cost more.

    5. Miniature House*

      I’m trying to convince my employer to put salary information in our job ad, but I’m not getting anywhere. It’s a very uncommon and niche position that sounds lower paid, but I made 6 figures for 40 hours of comparatively easy work last year. It’s a hard position to fill and being upfront about pay would make a world of difference! We’ve had zero full time applications.

      2. Happy*

        If it pays that well (on the order of $5 million per year) and no one is applying, then definitely post the salary information! It’s hard to imagine that you don’t have applicants for something like that, even if it is a niche position.

        1. Jess*

          I do not think they are saying the salary is $5 million a year. 6 figures for 40 hours I think was meant as shorthand for 40 hours per week, you were supposed to assume the job lasted the whole year rather than 1 week.

      3. Yellow Warbler*

        Maybe post on the Friday thread for ideas? Lots of niche workers on AAM, maybe someone knows specialty places to post.

      4. vlookup*

        Ran into this at a previous job – our salaries were actually quite competitive for our industry, but management was really resistant to putting a salary range in job postings.

        The explanation I’ve usually heard is that if you give candidates a salary range, they’ll never accept anything less than the top of the range. Seems like BS to me if you have some logical explanation for how you determine where in the band someone falls.

        At my old employer, I honestly think it was that there were some weird pay inequities that would have been revealed if they posted salary ranges. Nothing as blatant as discrimination based on race/gender, but things like people with the same titles/roles being paid differently based on their salary at their last job – not illegal, but no good explanation for it if people ever found out about the disparities.

        1. Sammie*

          I just commented this somewhere else but it’s relevant for you. Your employer’s justification may be BS but it might not be. So many candidates just don’t have a good idea of their value in the market – and a lot really overestimate their value and just can’t wrap their head around the point of a salary range. Knowing your value in the market is so important and it will only help you in the long run by avoiding low ball offers as well.

        2. TardyTardis*

          Yes, whenever they say ‘nothing as blatant as discrimination…’ We all know what that is code for. We all know who the people are who have had lower pay throughout their careers, and why. The company is just perpetuating it in their culture.

        3. Minnie Mouse*

          We don’t even have a range! Everyone on that level gets paid exactly the same! There are opportunities to make more if you want to do more work, but it’s optional. It’s a small business and they’re extremely stubborn about certain ideas. I’ve tried to talk about some other stuff that might put candidates off that could be easily changed (and a reason an employee quit, though they don’t understand why) and it’s a brick wall.
          Small business weirdness I guess.

          1. Mia in Canada*

            I don’t know if it’s weirdness or not. To me it seems fair, that everyone doing the same job is paid the same.

            Now, you said, “Everyone on that level gets paid exactly the same!” I’m not clear on how close to “that level” is to “the same job”. But at least — presumably — whoever decided which jobs fit into the same level decided that those jobs where of equivalent value.

            Do you have a sense of why some people doing the same job should be paid differently? One reason could be seniority, but that’s not necessarily relevant to all kinds of jobs. Another — bad — reason could be what people were paid in a previous job; I say it’s bad (and I suspect, from reading other AAM articles, that Alison would agree) because then someone who was underpaid once will potentially be underpaid for the rest of their lives.

            1. Mia in Canada*

              Oh, and I forgot to add: another reason for paying people doing the same job different rates might be that some are simply better at it than others. In that case, it might make sense to give them different raises, but not to make their initial pay rates different — because it’s impossible to really know how good someone would be at the job until they’ve done it for awhile.

      5. fhqwhgads*

        My company instituted a policy of always posting the range, specifically for DEAI reasons. If you haven’t tried that angle, it might be worth it.

    6. Thursdaysgeek*

      That’s how I feel about buying a car. Tell me the price and I’ll let you know if I’m interested. Don’t tell me the price? I’m not interested.

    7. JRR*

      My employer always lists a salary range, but it tends to be an outrageously low one (e.g. Lama Stylist, 10+ years experience, $11-$12/hour). Then they wonder why they don’t get any qualified applicants.

      I wish they would just a few times advertise a job without the salary and ask qualified applicants what they require. That would give them some idea of what the going rate is.

    8. Sc@rlettNZ*

      Ha, you jest but something similar happened when we approached the owners of the house next door to ours to see if they would consider selling. We were dealing with the owner’s daughter as they live offshore and she said that we had to submit an offer and if her parents found it acceptable then we would be allowed to view the property.

      I laughed and said no way (and amazingly we actually did end up buying it and the rest of the transaction went incredibly smoothly, once she realised that the whole offering-a-price-without-viewing-inside-the-property thing was completely ridiculous).

      1. TardyTardis*

        I saw someone who did buy a house without an interior inspection (one of those fixit shows), and oh Dear God did that turn out to be a mistake (I don’t see how they actually made a profit on it unless they found someone really stupid with lots of money to buy the refurbished version).

    10. Selina Luna*

      This is one nice thing about being a teacher-even if a salary range isn’t posted on the job advertisement, the salary schedule is nearly always posted on the school or district website, and there is no real negotiation-you just get placed based on education and experience, period.

  5. Database Developer Dude*

    This is why you don’t tell prospective employers what your salary is -now-. You tell them “I’m looking for $X to $Y, plus or minus Z% depending on the total package. Is that something you can work with?”

    1. PollyQ*

      Agree that current salary should be left out of the discussion altogether, but I suspect this particular crew would’ve pulled exactly the same stunt even if OP had just given a range.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      That wouldn’t have changed any of this. The LW said what they wanted, and the company proceeded as if that were a possibility.

    3. MK*

      They gave her an offer that was less than her current salary, so I don’t think it would make any difference if she hadn’t revealed what she made. Companies who want to know your current salary to lowball you will usually offer a little more than what you already make.

    4. MassMatt*

      But the OP DID say what they were looking for, whether the figure was an additional % from their current salary or just a desired salary is irrelevant. They named a figure after being asked by the employer in order to “save everyone’s time” and avoid lowballing them at the offer stage–and then proceeded to do just that!

      A similar thing happened to me years ago. I went through a phone screen where I was asked about salary expectations, and was scheduled for an interview. Getting there was a hassle, and early on the hiring manager asked what salary I was looking for. I repeated my original figure. She didn’t even say anything, just started shaking her head no. I emphasized flexibility for the right position, opportunity for advancement, etc. and she just kept shaking her head no. Why’d you bring me out here after I’d already named a figure to the HR rep if that figure was wildly out of your range?

      In retrospect I’d dodged a bullet, the office was a dimly-lit cube farm with the lowest ceilings I’d ever seen (seriously, I could reach up and touch the ceiling, and I am no Wilt Chamberlain) with boxes of documents piled up in every aisle. Ugh, half a day wasted for what turned out to be maybe a 15 minute “interview”. Oh, and a “perk” she mentioned was that in the summer, she “tries to let everyone leave by five”–???

      In this case there was clearly no communication between the HR person doing the initial screen and the hiring manager. And neither seemed to have any awareness of how their job/worplace really compared to others.

      1. Smithy*

        I was recently headhunted for a role where I had the interview and said that while the position sounded interested, my feeling was that we’d be too far away in salary and likely shouldn’t continue the process. The HR rep shared the salary, I said it was below what I was currently making and again expressed that I should likely withdraw from future interviews as I would not be leaving unless it was a step forward.

        HR rep returned to me, very excited that she had negotiated for a higher title and we’d work on the salary. I now know I should have pushed then to hear the salary because after a number of interviews later when I was offered the job – the salary was just a match to my salary at the time.

        From what I know about this organization, it really is a wonderful place to work, so it really was a moment of kicking myself. For all the time and excitement I had about the role, to end up with an offer that was a nonstarter was a real bummer.

        1. Yellow Warbler*

          Why would they be excited to offer you the same money to change jobs and do more work? They don’t sound very logical. (“We’ll work on it” means “this is it, and we’re going to string you along”.)

          1. College Career Counselor*

            Because they think that if they hit the number that the candidate is currently working for, they know the minimum they have to offer. Now all that matters is that they reel the person in with the promise of working for their massively awesome organization.

            And that might do it, if the candidate didn’t like their current job/colleagues, was bored, looking for a change, wanted a shorter commute, etc. But anyone who is head-hunted is unlikely to leave a job they’re content with for THE SAME MONEY and having to deal with the learning curve of a new organization.

            1. Koalafied*

              Yeah, that move would have to come with one hell of a benefits package. Like pay my phone, internet, car lease, dog sitter, and 100% of my insurance premiums on a Cadillac plan. That and a week more vacation and I’d accept a lateral salary move.

      3. TardyTardis*

        I worked there once, I swear! And at least one fixture blinked like a fiend while I was there (they took turns).

    5. Not A Girl Boss*

      I’ve done this with the same results as LW. I say “I’m looking for $X base,” (stressing base) and they ALWAYS come back with “$Y base + $Z bonus / stock options = $X” and be completely baffled at why I don’t consider ‘base’ to include a very unlikely giant bonus and/or stock options one day in the unlikely future? They go on long spiels at me about how they’re equal. Its like, ok, if they’re so equal, don’t give me the bonus and give me the cash?

      1. Bostonian*

        Yes! Even though, yes, the entire compensation package is important, being way off on salary isn’t going to be made up with stock *options* (eye roll).

        Oh, and I totally read your username as Good Janet would.

      2. Can Can Cannot*

        I usually state my desired total comp number (salary + bonus + stock), and let them figure out how to get there. I have learned that if I only specify salary, they sometimes get stingy with the rest.

        1. Not A Girl Boss*

          See, I’m the opposite. Good! Be stingy with the rest! Give me the dolla dolla billz yo. Maybe this is just baggage from working for far too many companies that worked far too hard to screw you out of bonuses, but, if it isn’t money I can take to the bank every other Friday, it doesn’t count.

          1. Can Can Cannot*

            For me, when I got to a certain level, the other stuff (bonus + stock) was a larger portion of my total compensation than the salary. In my last job they were about double my salary, and they expect senior people to have some skin in the game. On the down side is that you are putting some comp at risk if the earnings and stock price don’t do well. But if they do well, it can be lucrative.

    7. Kate R*

      I think sometimes people do this because they think most people will understand not wanting to take a pay cut, and they additionally know you aren’t just shooting too high, but I agree that currently salary shouldn’t matter. Before the job is even posted, the company should have an idea of the salary range they are willing to pay, which is why I personally always think it’s garbage when they ask you to throw out a number first. They acted in bad faith all around, both in leading OP on about the salary and implementing their ideas from the interview. They basically got free consulting.

  6. anonymouse*

    “The team even implemented a bunch of my ideas after speaking with me.”
    100% bad faith.
    They lied. They used you. They didn’t even try to argue with you, much less apologize. You got played by some dirty people.

    1. MichLaw*

      I strongly agree with anonymouse. The OP wrote that she works with a similar company as the one she applied to. I suspect that the company deliberately set her up to learn from her and perhaps get a leg up on their competition.

      Alison, if someone uses your work like this in an interview “test”, is there any way to get compensated?

      1. anonymouse*

        I’m so irate about this. I’d like to review their job postings for the last five years and see if it coincides with innovations to their company!

  7. Exhausted Trope*

    GRR!!! Situations like this make me hate corporations all the more.
    OP, it’s awful that this happened but I think you dodged a major bullet here. And I’d send them a hefty bill for your time, too.

  8. Sara without an H*

    “These people are not impressive.”

    Oh, but they are, they are! They are impressive bull shitters. I am impressed with their gall.

  9. Amber Rose*

    I suspect the “why” has at least partly something to do with how terrible companies prey on desperate job hunters. They’re only looking for the kind of employee who needs work so badly they’d accept this kind of BS right from the start, and probably worse once the job actually starts.

    1. Snailing*

      Yep, and when you try to push back, they try to neg you even more – though I find that helpful because it shows me I don’t want to work for you anyway!

    2. Cat Tree*

      I worked at a place like that in 2011. It’s amazing how fast that place emptied out as soon as the economy picked up.

  10. PizzaDog*

    I hate this so much for you. I hate being asked what my expectations are and having to accept lower because it’s “not in the budget.” Why don’t you stop wasting everyone’s time and give YOUR proposed salary, and I’ll decide whether it’s worth my time to interview?

    1. Professor Plum*

      Yes. And even better is to put the salary range into the job description so I can decide if it’s worth my time to apply.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        I am impressed by companies that do this, although it is sadly lacking in private higher education. With a public institution, you can at least look up what the person formerly in the role used to make (or get some idea), but it’s a black box with private universities. So, I was really impressed with one HR person who called me up to do an initial phone screen and started off by saying “before we get too far down the road, this position pays X. Does it make sense to continue?”

        Reader, X was 20% less than I was making at the time. It did not make sense to continue the conversation. Both of us got on with our day much more rapidly than had we continued the song and dance. The only thing they could have done better, as other people have mentioned, is list the damn salary range in the position ad.

      2. Overeducated*

        This is becoming increasingly common practice in my field, and I have to say it’s saved me a lot of time not applying for what sound like “dream jobs” that pay 1/2 or 2/3 of my current salary. There are wide, wide variations for pay in my field depending on type and size of employer, and I’m just not at a place in life where I’d take a huge pay cut for a higher title at a smaller org or work that sounds exciting. (Maybe after my kids go to college…?)

    2. Cat Tree*

      Frankly, if they don’t have the budget to pay me a competitive salary at the start, I have zero confidence in the company’s long-term future. There’s no reason I should I attach myself to a failing business. Even if they’re stable with a tight budget, that doesn’t bode well for my future raises and bonuses. Why do they think that admitting they are terrible at budgeting will make them more attractive to candidates?

    3. MissBaudelaire*

      +1.

      Tell me what you’re willing to pay, and I’ll decide if it’s worth my time. Don’t try and drape it all in the promise of maybe bonuses, if the stars align. Don’t tell me there’s ‘lots of opportunity!’ if I happen to be willing to sell my unborn child. Tell me what you pay. That’s all.

      I’ll take a lower salary in some other situations, but those situations are so personal to me as an individual. I might take a lower salary if the hours are better, if it’s closer to my home, if the work is better suited to me.

  11. Snailing*

    Just went through something similar myself – I managed to avoid saying what I currently make, but alluded to the range I’m currently in. This was for a brand new position so more aligned with Alison’s example of they just didn’t do their research for a salary band and it was clear they picked a random number, which was already frustrating because we had an initial meeting, parted by saying we’d do independent research and figure out a good salary band. When I pointed out their offer was way below market, they just used the numbers I came up with, still no indication of their own research, and still gave me the lowest number. Luckily it’s not any job I was hurting for or put a lot of stake in, but the whole thing ended up being an annoyance!

  12. Marzipan Shepherdess*

    That jumped out at me, too! They took the LW’s ideas, used them (without compensation) and then offered a salary $10,000 BELOW what the LW had been earning? LW, you really did dodge a bullet! If they do this to interviewees, they wouldn’t treat their employees any better. I’m sorry that you wasted all that time with them, but you’re better off NOT working for that company!

  13. fhqwhgads*

    If the company were genuinely, in good faith, trying to “avoid leading on any candidates and then realizing we’re low-balling them in the offer stage”, they’d post the damn range in the job listing and/or just tell the applicant from the first contact and allow them to agree that’ll work for them or bow out immediately.

    1. KHB*

      In a way, though, what they said was true. They didn’t want to “realize at the offer stage” that they were low-balling the candidate – they wanted to be sure they were low-balling the candidate.

  14. CW*

    This is a sign of a cheap employer. Like what other said, you dodged a bullet.

    I am a little biased in this regard because something similar happened to me 4.5 years ago, but unlike you, I took the job. I will save you the story, but all I can say was that it was a big mistake.

  15. Bookworm*

    I hate that this happened to you OP. That sucks. This is why I personally refuse to wait until it’s later in the process (hell, let’s at least meet face to face!) before discussing salary. Yes, I know it’s a risk and yes it has ended badly for me (as in, they drop my application like a hot potato or worse, I never hear back or a “thanks, we’re moving forward with other applications, etc.).

    If organizations really mean they want to hire the best and a diverse, etc. workforce, etc. they should just post the salary range upfront. You’ll screen a lot more candidates out that way.

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I find a salary ballpark to be very useful in judging what level the job is. There can be a huge range of what companies consider to be “experienced”, or what “senior” means, or what the difference is between “team lead” and “supervisor”, but I get an instant clue if it’s listed at $30k rather than $50k (for example).

      Government (etc) jobs in my country state what salary band the position is, so you get weird numbers like maybe it says Band 2C £24533-£30201. Most medium and large companies have similar structures that they could publish if they cared to.

      I’ve learned to read “competitive” or other number-avoiding language as meaning “not enough, as little as we can get away with, you’ll need to steal fruit from reception to get by”. Why else wouldn’t you state even a range? It’s incredibly rare to be hiring for a particular role with absolutely no idea of budget.

      1. MissBaudelaire*

        I snorted at stealing fruit from reception.

        “Competitive” in my area typically means “We found one company forty five minutes who paid less, so it could be worse!”

  16. Cat*

    I really wish you’d have shared more about what he should have done when realizing they’d used his work.

  17. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

    The company wants to get you invested mentally and emotionally in the job, then use that investment against you.

    1. Just another person*

      Yeah that’s how I interpreted it too – they were trying to flatter the LW by saying they implemented her ideas and dragged out the hiring process to keep LW emotionally invested and therefore willing to take the low salary. Good for LW, for getting away!

  18. disconnect*

    This is the sort of information that is very helpful for job seekers to read about on sites such as glassdoor dot com.

  19. learnedthehardway*

    I’m annoyed on your behalf. BUT – consider their offer as a starting point. My guess is that they want you (after all, they could have simply said that they had other/better candidates, if they just wanted to scam you out of a few hours of work and some creative ideas). I think they know they can’t offer you what you are aiming for, but that they feel like they can get you for lateral to your current compensation. They’ve lowballed the offer, hoping that you’ll get caught up in the negotiations and will accept a final amount that isn’t really too much higher than where you’re at.

    They know you’re looking for X, which is 15% higher than your current salary, Y. They’ve offered Y-$10K, knowing that your negotiating starting point is going to be X, since you told them that was what you were looking for.

    Personally, I’d be tempted to up your ask to a point where the difference between their offer and what you are looking for is X, the figure you actually want. I mean, two can play that game, right?

    1. Dan*

      I sort of get where you’re coming from, but using your numbers, offering *somebody with a job* less than their current salary (Y) is going to signal that the employer isn’t serious and the candidate is probably wasting their time. And most people are only interested in a close-to-lateral transfer (pay wise anyway) if they are totally miserable and want to get out at any cost, or the prospective role is a foot-in-the-door to much larger opportunities. If I get offered something below my current salary Y, I just assume there is no way I’m getting to my desired number, and any further conversation will be a waste of time. So there won’t be any further conversation. Now, if I get offer X plus a little, that at least tells me you’re serious about negotiating and I’ll play a little ball.

      All that said, employers need to be careful about how they interact and what they ask from people who are currently employed. Awhile back, I kept getting emails from the recruiting department at a Fortune 500 company inviting me to a day-long career fair. They were vague about available positions but proclaimed that “hiring managers were available for onsite interviews!” I’m like, “and why do you think *someone with a job* is willing to take a day of PTO to put on a suit and dust off a resume when I don’t even know what you’re hiring for?”

      I did email the recruiters and told them I could be interested in talking about a real job if they had something that aligned with my skillset, and I’d happily set up a phone screen with the HM. But I was not interested in burning a day of PTO without knowing anything about the available positions.

      1. Cat Tree*

        Yeah, I don’t get why employers are surprised when candidates turn down a lateral move. Years ago I got an offer that was slightly more than my current salary at the time, but less than I would be making in a few months with the standard 3% raise. This was through a third party recruiter who had the audacity to tell me that negotiation is viewed as *unprofessional*, so I turned it down. The employers then called me directly. I thought they were calling to negotiate, but instead they were calling me to try to convince me to take that offer. They would not budge a penny. I politely explained to them that I would be worse off in a few months so I would not accept that offer, and they were sincerely surprised that I turned it down. I’m not running a charity with my labor. They relied heavily on *fair* pay for the position, but since I was already employed I cared more about *competitive* pay.

        Also as I mentioned upthread, if they’re this stingy with the starting salary, I have no confidence that future raises and bonuses would be any better.

        1. MissBaudelaire*

          Not running a charity is something to remember when applying for jobs. I’m not working just because I’m a really nice person and I want to make your life much nicer. I’m working because I have bills to pay, and there’s a minimum amount I need so I’m not eating ice cube sandwiches on bread butts.

        2. Dan*

          Elsewhere on this thread, I talk about a place that lowballed me on the initial offer and didn’t want to meaningfully budge on it after I told them I was going to accept another offer. What I didn’t say was that:

          1. This was happening the Friday before xmas. While Company A would put up with the inconvenience of reworking an offer over the holidays, Company B would have way less incentive (and I reallllllyyyyy wanted to work at Company B, I could take or leave Company A. No way was I going to risk the offer with B. Plus, B made me a fair offer that didn’t need to be negotiated.)

          2. Company A’s HR manager tried to guilt me into taking the role. She wasn’t coming up with more money, but she was laying it on thick… as in, I’ve never seen that before.

          3. They even had the CEO call me. TBH, even though he just left a “call me” message with no detail other than his contact info, it really put me off. This role was for an IC position, the CEO wasn’t part of the interview process, and I would not report to the CEO. Heck I might pass him in the hall, but he had no business calling little old me. (At the very least, tell me you’re willing to do what it takes to close the deal… give me a reason to believe that calling you back isn’t waste of time, and will result in something more than a guilt trip.)

          I took company B’s offer and am glad I did. Company B doesn’t play games with salary. They’re more candid about salary expectations, both starting and once we’re there. Pay is rather formulaic, and really is pretty decent once you get into the mid level and senior roles. I’m making way more at Company B than I ever would at Company A. (And Company B is well known within my industry, and that’s what irritated me the most with Company A. If you’re going to compete with B on both the initial offer and the career path, guilt trips are not a compelling recruiting tactic.)

    2. KHB*

      In a different situation, maybe this would make sense, but with the numbers given here, I don’t think it does.

      Say OP’s current salary is $80K. They asked for 15% more, or $92K, and the employer offered $10K less, or $70K. $70K to $92K is an enormous difference, and if they’re willing to let people “negotiate” increases anywhere close to that, it probably means they’ve got some pretty big internal pay inequities (since women are less aggressive in negotiating than men are).

      It also probably means that they’re going to play games with you in other ways, too. If you tell them clearly that you want $92K and they offer you $70K with the expectation that you’ll negotiate them back up, that sounds like they think that you don’t really mean what you say until you’ve said it three times, and you can expect to be ignored the first time when you ask for other things too.

      These people sound exhausting to deal with. Given that OP is already employed (and so presumably not desperate), I’d say they’re right to give this one a miss.

    4. armchairexpert*

      “I make $100K, so I’d want at least $115K”
      “Ok, you’re a great candidate so we can offer a maximume of $90K”
      “Well now I want $140K”

      That is going to make you look ridiculous, and in no way will result in them going “let’s split the difference, have $115K”.

  20. Dan*

    I had an offer from a place who lowballed me. What really drove me nuts was that they were trying to pitch a role that didn’t exist yet (“if this project really takes off, we want you to be in charge of a team…”) Fine, but when you’re really hiring for an individual contributor role, I need to be clear on what you’re hiring for *right now* and consequently, what you’re willing to pay.

    When it came time for salary discussions, they said “we’re interested in your thoughts on this.” I gave the interview a slight grin and said, “I’m thinking I’d like to hear your thoughts first”. They said they hadn’t thought that hard yet. (Uh huh). So I just said I was getting mixed messages, they spent a lot of time talking about a leadership role, which would justify $X. But it was also obvious that the leadership role wasn’t in place yet, and they were really hiring for an IC role. In which case, knock off $10k.”

    What I wasn’t going to do was name a lower number than that, and then get screwed when the leadership role came along because they wanted to play games with “well… we can’t give internal promotions beyond X%.”

    Well, they came in with a number even lower than what I named as the bottom end. I then asked, “is that the best you can do?” They came up a tad, but it was small. There was some discussion about what I was making at my most recent job (from which I had been laid off), and how their offer was better than that. And I was like, “well that’s all fine and good, but I’m actively interviewing and I’d like to see how those pan out [because that’s your *real* competition, not my previous job that I don’t work at anymore]. Can I get back to you in a week?”

    I was able to secure the offer I wanted, and TBH the only way Company A could have secured my acceptance would be to offer me something above market, which is not a place I want to be because that makes you first choice for downsizing the next time it happens. So I called them back up and politely declined the offer. They tried to talk me out of it, but I’m sitting here thinking to myself, “Why are you wasting your time and mine? You know you made me a lowball offer, and I know you made me a lowball offer, so what is that you think you can say that will make me change my mind when I have a better offer on the table?”

    I swear, lots of people on the employer side are not used to getting their offers rejected. It feels *so good* to be able to reject a bad offer.

  21. swephaci*

    Ugh, I had something very similar happen a few years back. I was contacted by an internal recruiter & our very first conversation was about salary. I brought it up since I wanted to avoid wasting either of our time if we weren’t in the same range. She assured me we were, so we proceeded: self review of skills, phone interview with the team, assigned a technical task, in-person interview with the director, manager, & team, & finally lunch with the team.

    Before I got home, the recruiter was calling with an offer. If I remember correctly, $10K less than what I was currently making. I asked what happened & got some mumble about if I had skill X, then they could have offered more (can’t remember if it was equal to or still less than I was currently making). The thing is, I was completely honest about not having skill X in my self review & in the initial phone interview with the team.

    1. Dan*

      The Skill X thing drives me nuts.

      I had a company fly me out for an interview (standard practice in my industry), and one interviewer kept grilling me about things that weren’t on my resume. “I don’t see Skill X on your resume.” That’s correct, it’s not there. “Why not?” I don’t possess Skill X, I can’t list it. “Why don’t you possess Skill X?” Really dude? Because I don’t.

      The whole time I’m thinking, “if Skill X is so damn important, you could have told the phone screeners to ask about it. That’s what those screens are for.” But hey, if you want to waste $1k on travel expenses, that’s between you and your boss.

      The other thing is, some of these guys forget that interviewing is a two way street. That particular company is well known in my industry, but is located in a town where they’re the “only game in town.” There is no local competition. (Whereas where I currently live, there’s any number of employers who will snap up my skillset. Moving for a job that I’m not 100% sold on is not a smart idea, because I will more than likely have to move again if things don’t work out.) Meanwhile, as this dude is doing his thing, I’m thinking, “Part of your job as an interviewer is selling me on the company and the role, and convincing me that moving a few hundred miles is something you really want to do. You’re totally failing in that role.”

    2. Mia in Canada*

      The recruiter said, “some mumble about if I had skill X, then they could have offered more” — that sounds to me like the recruiter said that as an attempt at saving face (and they probably forgot entirely about you saying early on that you didn’t have skill X).

  22. Anon this time*

    OP, I know this is an old post but I’d like to have a drink with you and commiserate. A few months ago I was interviewing for a job that seemed promising; I gave my salary requirements up front and the (in-house) recruiter’s immediate response was “Oh, you want $X? At that job title we could even look at $X + 10K!”

    I go through several hours of interviews. Everyone seems really into me. I am seriously considering the job. I don’t hear from the recruiter for a while, so I ask her what’s up…

    …and her response is “Your salary is going to be a problem. That job title would never pay more than $X – 40!” She acted all indignant, as if I were the one who had led THEM on!

    This was a video call and I wish I’d screenshotted my “wow, your ish is not together” face when she said that.

    1. Dan*

      I had an interview like that. Company posted the internal pay band code for the role on the public job req. I don’t know if they expected non-company people to figure it out, but I was able to google around and find the number. The high end of the range was competitive as a starting salary for someone with my skillset. The low end was really low, and the only way it could possibly work was because the job was in an area where the cost of living was super low… and it was one of my first interviews out of grad school for something I really wanted, so it was worth seeing it through.

      So when it came time to the actual discussion, they asked me what I was expecting. I said, “well the role was posted as a Company Band Z role, which I understand equates to a range of X to Y. Y is in line with what other companies are willing to pay for these skills, and given your location of Cheap City, that will work for me.

      HM: “I’m not sure we’re willing to pay the top end of the range.” Me, thinking to myself: “You want to pay someone with an MS in a technical field a salary that is kind of low even for someone with just a BS? Good luck with that. But it’s my first interview for a job I’m exceptionally qualified for, and I would be an idiot to close the door now.” What I actually said was, “well, I really am interested in this role, and it aligns with my skillset in ways that few jobs do, so let’s see where things are at after we’ve got a chance to explore things further.”

    2. Former Employee*

      If they were going to gaslight you at that stage, imagine what would have gone on in the work place had you been hired!

    3. Sun Tzu*

      This is called a bait and switch, it’s a common con technique.

      Happened to me once, too, when interviewing at an IT consulting firm (not in the US).

      In-person interview at the company’s premises. I ask for $120K (a very reasonable salary, which many would consider the bare minimum). Hiring manager says that they can offer $140K since they want their employers to be happy and stay with them. He schedules a second in-person interview with the boss for the day after.

      Second interview, the boss offers me $100K. He proposes to make it up for an additional $20-30K via false travel reimbursements, to skip taxes (illegally).

      Needless to say, I refused and I put the company on my blacklist.

  23. AndersonDarling*

    There are also times when the recruiter is acting in good faith but then the final offer needs to be signed off by the CEO/COO/President and that’s where the games begin. The top dog, who doesn’t know anything about the role, wants to pay less because the candidate is a woman/minority, or they never heard of the school the candidate went to, or they don’t think 10 years experience is good enough… And the recruiter doesn’t have any power in the situation.

  24. PeachCube*

    This just happened to me as well, twice. Low-balled by two different companies, both by $10k, when they initially told me they didn’t want to waste my time and the salary requirement was within their budget. It’s incredibly frustrating.

  25. Monty*

    It sounds like they may have gotten what they actually wanted: free labour.

    This has been happening more and more frequently within my circle of friends and contacts. I know of a case where a few friends interviewed for a communications position and each was asked to write a press-release for a *different* “hypothetical” upcoming launch. All three friends were told that the firm had decided to go in a different direction, but were thanked for their time. All three press-releases ran.

    I think this has been increasing due to the pandemic: with an unstable job market, talented people are willing to put in way more work in the interview phase; with slashed budgets in many industries, some places might be more willing to overlook basic ethics.

    1. Former Employee*

      Perhaps they can leave reviews online saying that they unknowingly worked for the company but were never paid because it was part of the “interview process”.

  26. Guin*

    One of my first questions as an interviewee is: What is the salary of the position right now? If they won’t answer that, then I politely reply I am not going to pursue the position.

    2. learnedthehardway*

      That may or may not be relevant, however. I mean, the range is relevant, but how much the person in the role is paid is not. They may have qualifications that are different from yours, they may have outperformed the expectations of the role and been given merit increases, etc. etc.

  27. irene adler*

    An independent recruiter I know told me about some of her clients and their instructions regarding salary level for people she brings in to fill their positions (she recruits for high level or hard-to-find-skilled positions). ‘

    Some insist upon a hiring salary range that is well below market. They justify it with saying that they want someone returning to the job market or new to the area. Idea being they will offer such a person work when no one else might.

    She scoffs at these tactics. And explains to them how they only serve to drive someone away in short order. Do they really want to be back in the market for the replacement 6 months from now?

    Some take her advice and up the salary to market level. Some learn to heed her advice when they do find themselves right back in the market to fill the same position just a few months later. And there are a few who insist upon standing pat with the low salary range despite the consequences.

    1. MissBaudelaire*

      I bet those are the same companies that just don’t understand why turn over is so high.

      1. irene adler*

        Betting you are correct.
        AND, they blame the frequent turnover on things other than salary, etc. (“couldn’t possibly be anything WE’RE doing!”)

        1. MissBaudelaire*

          “Why are all our employees so disloyal to the company!”

          They aren’t. They just treat it like a business transaction and found a better one!

  28. Paige*

    “These people are not impressive.”

    I will be using that copiously in the future, thank you!

  29. Alexis Rose*

    On the opposite end, I always put the salary range in my job postings. We recently had a candidate for thought the entire process and then ask for more when we offered her the top of our stated range.

    We ended up agreeing to an additional increase because she had so much more experience than we asked for (25 years vs 2). I guess only time will tell if it was a good decision.

  30. Unfettered scientist*

    I wish more jobs put the range in the ad. For scientists, I think I’ve only ever seen a handful that do post a range. :(

    1. irene adler*

      Fellow scientist here: yep! Very few job ads include salary. But they do list a whole lot of requirements. Guess they ran out of room for salary.

      1. Unfettered scientist*

        I know! Get to the bottom of 15 bullet points on all the assays I need to be able to do and how I need to be a “lab leader” and “thrive in a fast-paced work environment” (aka you will work a good deal of extra hours for no extra pay) and at the bottom “Salary and benefits are competitive” :0

  31. Noncompliance Officer*

    I work in the public sector and our salary ranges are set in stone. TWe often get people who think they are going to negotiate. We begin all of our interviews by reminding them of the position they are interviewing for and the that the starting salary will be in the that range. We once had a candidate say, “Ok, I understand,” and then wink at us. They were offered the job and declined it after failing to negotiate a higher salary and were upset we had wasted their time.

  32. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

    I can tell you why they do that. They are playing a game. And, they feel they might “win”. If you are applying to a job and

    a) you’re out of work or
    b) they suspect you might be in trouble in your current job

    They play these games and pull these stunts. And they try to get away with low-balling. Problems with that tactic are multi-fold but

    A) they might get turned down – but they have the option to come back with a counter offer. The problem is you might not accept it because you don”t like being jerked around, and regardless – it sets up a “yellow caution flag” — when it’s time for your next notch up the ladder, you might have to play hardball. Been there, done that.

    B) if you are out of work, or applying for the job out of desperation , and accept it, fine – you’ll have work and a paycheck. But what the dum-horselike mammals don’t realize – you’re just establishing a base to continue your job search from. Six months to a year – you’re either going to move on, or face negotiation-through-resignation.

    That’s what happens in outfits like that.

    1. irene adler*

      True. Seems to me that some places just don’t think about consequences. Or, they DO believe in fairy tales.

      1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

        Many companies aren’t thinking long-term. It’s “I gotta get someone in here now and we’ll do whatever it takes, and we won’t take ‘no’ for an answer. After all, this is Cat’s Rear End Computing, who in their right minds would turn us down?”

        Someone who can’t afford to?

    2. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      Reference the movie = The Company Men.

      Shows how companies display utter disrespect for the unemployed. Low-ball offers, standing applicants up who’ve traveled on their own dollar for interviews, ghosting solid applicants, leading people that they’ve got a job and pulling the rug, etc. etc. etc., and managers interviewing and toying with people for their own amusement (not in the movie but it happens).

      Been there, experienced that.

  33. Anonymooose*

    There are actually two things going on here.
    Regarding the headline, “Why do companies lead candidates on about salary?” very few recruiters, hiring managers or anyone else involved in a hire are comfortable saying they hired someone and paid to dollar for them. Unless you are an incredible talent acquisition and upper management is sure to be thrilled that you have been brought over, bar none, it’s hard to say “we hired someone at vast expense”. Many people still feel that the achievement is that they hired an absolute ace person at a bargain salary. It’s /facepalm level of dysfunction but many businesses still take the defensive position that salaries are an expense. Some businesses do think salaries are a revenue generator so they are happy to pay a salary if it means acquiring taken that will produce….exponentially higher profits. Having worked with and managed people who perform far below their salary, it’s a constant struggle to be optimistic about hiring altogether and putting out the salary offer I WISH they could perform at.

    Now as to this company of yours 9or not yours actually)….this is your run of the mill bullshit line to get you to tell them your salary, plain and simple. They know that many people now more than every, swiftly rebut a request for salary with (1) a “why don’t you start with your salary budget for the position and I’ll tell you if it’s something I can work with” line or (2) they will tell you their preferred range, period.

    Seriously, they connect you into showing your hand and you fell for it. This is not a criticism of you. It is easy to con a honest, decent person and that’s exactly what happened. That company is garbage and don’t deserve honest employees.

  34. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

    OP, I would re-visit the ideas you shared. If the interviewer asked you, “Oh, we have XX problem, how do you handle that currently?”, and you shared current processes you implement, that could be considered proprietary information if you have a contract/NDA with your current company. It just crossed my mind because you noted that there was a very large number of ideas they used. This came across to me as them wanting the basics of how your position functions, unless you just came up with a ton of new ideas off the top of your head (and some people do!). If it ever got out that they got this from you, you could be liable. Just a heads up!

  35. Theory of Eeveelution*

    I’m going to start incorporating “these people are not impressive” into my everyday parlance.

    1. Grizabella the Glamour Cat*

      That is a great line, all right.

      These people are definitely not impressive. These people are gross.

  36. More Pizza*

    What BS. I think you dodged a bullet. My company agreed to a number and then after I accepted they lowered that number saying they couldnt do what they agreed to before. Now I know for sure they most certainly could have. It still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, was a bad way to start a relationship, and was definitely a red flag worth heeding. Keep moving and dont look back.

Comments are closed.