my employee gave me an “it’s her or me” ultimatum

by Alison Green on August 25, 2021

A reader writes:

I own and run a small store. Some of it is online and I have a remote employee to handle administration, IT, and our books, and I recently hired three people for our warehouse when I used to just use a shipping company.

“Miranda” has been my remote employee on the other side of the state, about three hours away. She’s been with me forever (almost four years) and I’ve never noticed how bad a job she does until my new employee came on board. “Laura” is my warehouse manager and she says that every day she has to fix Miranda’s mistakes and that if Miranda cared about the company she’d move to be closer to the warehouse and office. I’ve had such a difficult year with Covid personally and Laura has been a life-saving employee and friend, even helping me out with errands and lending me a vehicle when my husband’s car broke down. I couldn’t have made it through this year without Laura. She recommended the other two hires for the warehouse and they’re a great team since they all know each other and get along.

Miranda and Laura don’t see eye to eye on a lot of things, and Miranda seems to be really negative compared to Laura. She doesn’t want to try new things and is creating limits that I don’t think we need and saying no to new procedures and processes. I’m ashamed to admit I don’t know if Miranda is right or not and I don’t know what is a mistake and what isn’t or about our software and the business and limitations. I haven’t used our software in years and I don’t know that much about our product sourcing and things that Laura wants to change. I feel like they keep putting me in the middle and that’s really unprofessional. The other staff don’t need to talk to Miranda a lot, but they also say she’s difficult and hard to work with. It’s been a really tense few months at work and nobody’s getting along with Miranda. It feels like every day Miranda’s done something new that upsets the in-house team and she’s not even there. Laura had a good point the other day that you’d have to be abysmal at your job to cause problems when you’re not there in person.

A few months ago, I promoted Laura and gave her Miranda’s executive title, which was a demotion for Miranda. Afterwards, Miranda stopped working on certain projects and stopped helping Laura with certain aspects of the business Laura doesn’t know much about. Miranda also stopped responding to my calls and questions, and sometimes I’m waiting all evening for a response that I don’t get until the next morning. She didn’t respond to one of my questions and made me wait the whole weekend for an answer. Miranda asked me for a review of her job description and I feel like she should know what she has to do, I don’t have an updated job description for her. She and I spoke about her coming into the office three times a week for morale and she says she doesn’t want the commute and that nothing she does needs to be in the office.

I told her Miranda that the change in her title wasn’t personal, that Laura did such a great job helping me manage my life in the last year that it just seemed natural for her to be in charge. Miranda said that she felt my relationship with Laura was favoritism, which it isn’t. When I discussed this with Laura, she was so visibly upset. It was hard to see. When she calmed down, she said I need to fire Miranda because she doesn’t feel safe working with her.

I’m so confused I don’t know what to think. I left a lot of toxic jobs because I wanted my own business and camaraderie. The energy is so bad now. I just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly. Should I fire this employee?

I wrote back and asked why Laura says she feels unsafe working with Miranda and also whether Miranda is supposed to work nights and weekends, given the mention of waiting for answers from her during that time:

Laura said she felt unsafe because Miranda was so limiting and negative and that if she was going to accuse me of favoritism, that she’s obviously deflecting us away from her poor performance. She said Miranda won’t show her how to do anything in the software and I don’t know how to use it, and she feels like Miranda is trying to sabotage her and the company.

Miranda’s role was always more 9-5 for things like bookkeeping, bill paying, banking, and admin, which are normal admin hours but she was always reachable before no matter what.

So … it sounds like your perspective is really skewed against Miranda and toward Laura.

Laura may have legitimate complaints about Miranda for all I know, but none of them are in this letter.

What is in this letter are a number of ways that you and Laura are off-base and being unfair to Miranda. In no particular order:

1. Laura’s claim that if Miranda cared about the company, she’d move to be closer to the office is laughable. Miranda worked remotely for years — apparently to your satisfaction — and loads of people work remotely without it having any bearing on their commitment to their jobs. Moreover, how much Miranda “cares” about the company isn’t relevant; what’s relevant is her work and whether it’s good or bad. Lots of people do a great job without caring much about their companies at a personal level, and that’s fine. Laura seems like she’s trying to stir up trouble with this one.

2. You wrote that Laura has been a “life-saving employee and friend” to you during a difficult year and helped you out in your personal life. That has nothing to do with the work she does for your company, and factoring it into your assessment of her performance is wrong and unfair. You’re setting up a situation where other employees will feel that their willingness to do you personal favors will affect how you assess and reward them.

3. Miranda might be wrong in saying no to new procedures and processes — but you acknowledge that you don’t know if she’s right or what your software’s limitations are. You can’t hold this against her until you figure that out. Right now you could be wrongly penalizing her for accurately reporting on what your software can and cannot do.

4. It’s not unprofessional for Laura and Miranda to put you in the middle when they can’t resolve conflicts. You’re their boss; if they can’t resolve something between the two of them, they have to bring it to you.

In fact, you need to more actively manage your staff. With a staff this small, you need to be involved enough that you can tell who’s right and who’s wrong; right now you’re guessing based on who you like more, and that isn’t an okay way to do it. Similarly, if Miranda really was doing a bad job this whole time, you should have been involved enough to pick up on that — it shouldn’t only have come to light when Laura came on board. Frankly, I think it’s very likely that Miranda hasn’t been doing a bad job, but either way that’s something you need to know! You can’t be so hands-off that you’re stuck relying on other people to tell you.

5. Laura did not have a good point when she said that an employee would have to be abysmal at their job to cause problems when they’re not there in person. Anyone, regardless of location, can cause problems at their job. This sounds like Laura is just stirring the pot and looking for ways to criticize Miranda — and she’s getting traction with you even though she’s wrong.

6. In light of all of the above, look at these two statements next to each other and see if you see anything suspicious:
• “Laura recommended the other two hires for the warehouse … they all know each other and get along.”
• “The other staff don’t need to talk to Miranda a lot, but they also say she’s difficult and hard to work with.”

It’s very likely that the other staff are criticizing Miranda because they’re friends with Laura and she’s campaigning to push Miranda out.

7. Since Miranda’s job is 9-5, she’s not doing something wrong by “making you wait” for an answer in the evening or over a weekend. It’s very normal to have to wait until the next business day to get a reply from an employee, even if they were more responsive in their off-hours in the past. And given that you demoted Miranda, I’d assume she’s deliberately and rightly choosing to set some boundaries on her time because of that.

8. Let’s talk about that demotion. Here’s how that looks from Miranda’s perspective: She’s been with you forever, understood that she was doing a good job up until now, and then Laura showed up, got in your good graces by doing you personal favors outside of work, started trash-talking Miranda, and suddenly you’ve demoted Miranda and given her job to Laura. Miranda responded very reasonably by asking to talk about her job description since her title was taken away and given to Laura … and you don’t feel you need to bother because she should “just know.”

No wonder Miranda is declining to help Laura with things Laura doesn’t know much about! She probably feels that if Laura deserves her title, those are things she should be able to do without Miranda’s help.

9. You told Miranda that she was demoted because “Laura did such a great job helping me manage my life in the last year” — !!! You are explicitly saying that you demoted Miranda because someone else did personal favors for you. That’s pretty terrible. It’s the literal definition of unfair favoritism and she’s right to call it that.

10. Then there’s Laura’s claim that she feels “unsafe” working with Miranda, a claim that she doesn’t seem to have backed up by anything real. Miranda isn’t making anyone unsafe by anything you’ve described here. In fact, it’s the opposite — Laura is making Miranda unsafe, by actively campaigning for her to lose her job.

This is a mess, and you’re seeing it all through a very dirty lens.

I will tell you this with certainty: Laura is not trustworthy. The staff she brought with her may or may not be poisoned by her, but she definitely is poison.

I can’t unravel the whole thing in the space I have here, but you said you want someone to tell you what to do, so here goes: if Laura has given you an “it’s me or Miranda” ultimatum, take her up on it — and pick Miranda.

(I’m pretty sure you won’t want to do that because Laura has been a friend to you. That’s a sign that your personal feelings are blinding you and you’re not positioned to manage any of these people effectively, unfortunately.)

Read an update to this letter here.

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{ 1,177 comments }

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  1. MechE*

    “I own and run a small store.”
    “I feel like they keep putting me in the middle and that’s really unprofessional”

    You are the owner and operator. You are supposed to be in the middle.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Yes. You’re also supposed to understand your business functions and have an objective view of the contributions your employees are making. You have no idea what Miranda does? If her positions are correct? Where you source your products? Miranda has been singlehandedly running your business for years and you are doing a pretty awful job recognizing that. Laura snuck in and took over, and you let her. You didn’t know if Miranad was doing a good job so I’m pretty sure you also don’t know if Laura is doing a good job – you just like her. And she’s taking you for a ride.

        1. R*

          Well, you know, owners are really hardworking which is why they get paid much more than employees usually.

        2. Emilia Bedelia*

          I would guess that OP does a lot of the day to day customer service/front end work for the store. This is extrapolating, but if OP was previously in retail I can definitely see them getting frustrated with that environment and thinking “how hard can it be to run a store?”…. and just not understanding the scale of the back end stuff.

        3. So they all rolled over and one fell out*

          I assume OP is “working” 4 hour work weeks. Maybe less. This is irrespective of the amount of time OP is spending in the office vibing and whatever. At the rate they’re going, they’ll be back to working 40 hours for someone else soon enough.

        4. Your local password resetter*

          She’s presumably running the actual store. Miranda does the online stuff and a lot of the admin, and Laura and co do the warehouse, but OP didnt mention anyone to actually run the front end.
          So we can probably assume thats what she does all day.

          1. Eldritch Office Worker*

            So…the position that’s easiest to hire for and requires the least internal business knowledge.

            1. Rose*

              As someone who has worked in supply chain and front end retail roles, this is ridiculous. Without knowing more about the business there’s no way to know if this is true. Running the actual store is a lot more than a minimum wage cashier role.

              1. Eldritch Office Worker*

                I have run stores, you’re right, I’m not saying it’s an unskilled job. But this is the Letter Writer’s business and *running a business* is a whole lot more than the front end sales/merchandising. You worked in supply chain so you knew where your stuff got sourced, right? OP doesn’t know that. OP runs sales but doesn’t know the software that tracks how the business is doing. The OP is avoiding actually running the business by doing the part they think is fun.

              2. Worldwalker*

                I think what’s telling is that the OP doesn’t actually know what their essential software does, nor how to use it. Nor, apparently, much else about what goes on in the back end (suppliers?!?!?) but the software part is the key.

                The OP was the person who paid for the software. Even if Miranda advised it, the OP still wrote the check. (or clicked the “buy now”) How do you own something that essential for your business and *n0t know how to use it*? What was the OP planning to do if Miranda got run over by a bus? Or quit to go work for a less toxic boss?

                The OP doesn’t have to be an expert with whatver it is, but they should darn well know enough about it to fill in if Miranda isn’t there to do it. This is not Walmart — this is a place with a grand total of four employees, plus the owner. And used to get by with one. It’s incumbent upon the owner to know every bit of that business, inside and out, because they *can’t* just transfer someone from the Peoria store; the only emergency backup system they have is *them*.

                1. Redd*

                  I’m curious whether Miranda has been able to take vacations in the past, given that she seems to be the only one with answers and it’s apparently a big deal if she isn’t reachable on nights and weekends.

                2. Ryan*

                  Certainly what strikes me is that OP doesn’t seem to have the capacity to independently evaluate performance. Like if Laura is picking out serious and substantive issues (which are what?) then how come these weren’t noticed before when there was no one to double check? Was the business idea so overwhelmingly successful at idiot proofed that it was able to grow enough to quadruple the employee count?

      2. Guin*

        The OP is “managing” her company into the ground. How can she not know what her employee is doing? This whole situation is mind-boggling. I hope Miranda leaves and gets a good job with a company that is managed by professionals.

        1. Quickbeam*

          I’m a knitter and have seen soooo many in the knitting world open a store because they could be around yarn all day. They tend to last aout 3 years until the seed money runs out. It’s amazing how many people go into business without a plan.

          1. R*

            “You mean I have to sell the yarn?? And the buy more yarn and sell THAT yarn??!! And I have to do that EVERY DAY??!! For as long as the business is open??!!??”

            1. Lexie*

              “And I have to pay taxes? And I have to collect and remit sales tax to the state? I need worker’s comp insurance for my employees?”

              1. MissBaudelaire*

                “I have to pay my employees?? And minimum wage employees often leave for greener pastures, leaving me with high turnover!?!? But they get to be around yarn all day! Isn’t that payment enough??”

            2. Katrinka*

              And good yarn, even at wholesale prices, is THAT expensive? But animal farming isn’t really WORK, All the farmers have to do is feed and play with the sheep (or alpacas or rabbits or whatever)!

            3. Marzipan Shepherdess*

              Not to mention keeping up with current trends and having a good idea of what will sell in the future. Plus, the best yarn stores I’ve seen have offered classes in a variety of yarn-related crafts (knitting, crocheting, weaving, sometimes even hand-spinning) and have a space where yarn-crafters can come in with their projects, sit and chat, get advice and help and connect with other crafters. That means running classes yourself and/or hiring teachers to do it (which means ensuring that their IRS and SS paperwork is in order), providing that space for the crafters to gather, etc. Enjoying a hobby is NOT the same as running a business!

              1. Nic*

                From what I’ve seen of yarn shops, it’s often running classes and clubs that makes the difference as to whether it’s a workable business or not.

          2. original bob*

            Yep. I’ve seen the same thing happen with archery, gun and bike stores. People who like the hobby get wind of how much cash goes the store per month and think ” I HAVE TO GET IN ON THAT!!” not realizing how much of that cash flow goes to distributors.

            1. Mongrel*

              I remember an interview with a person who worked with the UK Lottery company, specifically a counselor for the “You’re a Multi-Millionaire, now what?” winners.
              Their first piece of advice was always “Never buy a Pub or Restaurant, even if you know what you’re doing they’re money pits”. Most people seem to think that it’s just having a pint and socializing or because they had a successful dinner party for 8 that it “can’t be that hard”

              1. Jasper*

                You could be a silent partner with someone who knows what they’re doing, as long as you’re aware that most likely you will never see that money again. But that might be worth it to be having that pint and socializing to you!

          3. Woah*

            you have the knitting shops in my area down to a T. One pops up once or twice a decade, lasts 1-3 years, then closes with much gnashing of teeth. Pre pandemic, one had an intense and overly complicated scheduling system for their “knitting area” because they didnt want it to “get too crowded.” I never saw anyone in it…just complete lack of business sense.

            1. Ermintrude*

              All of this is why I don’t run stalls at open markets and fêtes, or anything online already, let alone a retail store. I’ve found out I do not have resources or finances enough, enthusiasm will not make that materialise.

        2. Old Med Tech*

          That is what I hope for Miranda also. Leave this sinking ship of a business and find a better job. Team Miranda.

      3. Yvette*

        “”And she’s taking you for a ride.” Laura is literally taking her for a ride “…lending me a vehicle when my husband’s car broke down.”

        I see someone who is blatantly currying favor.

        1. Archaeopteryx*

          Yes OP you should not have *let* Laura do you any favors aside from maybe giving you one ride when you’re really in a jam. It’s super inappropriate and even though Laura is using it to get favoritism, the dynamics for her are still bad if she ever did want to scale back or say no to something. You and she need some professional boundaries.

        2. wittyrepartee*

          Lol, and one always end up wondering- how did she end up around there at such a perfect time? Sugar in the engine perhaps? #crazyconspiracytheories #donttakemeseriously

        3. Salymander*

          Yep. I think Captain Awkward calls it Favor Sharking. The Favor Sharker will offer to do a favor for someone who has something the Shark wants. Then, the Shark leverages the target’s gratitude so that the target feels like they need to give the Shark what they want. Very manipulative. A lot of abusers and other assorted predatory creeps do this with disastrous results for the people they target. I think this is also an example of Forced Teaming. It is hard to turn someone down after they create a bond with you by doing you favors.

          This situation seems like it will end badly for the OP in the long run. Laura is being all charming and helpful as a *manipulation tactic*.

      4. Happy Pirate*

        I also start to wonder if the OP needed three warehouse staff or did Laura just convince her to hire her friends?

        2. Jasper*

          I have serious doubts whether OP needed even one warehouse staff. I wonder if one of the things Miranda was warning about was that the new private warehouse was costing her double what the old services company used to charge.

      5. HD*

        Absolutely. You cannot be this passive and run a business. It’s going to get taken over from under you. You’ll drive away good employees and be left with snakes.

        1. MissBaudelaire*

          I was shocked at “It’s so unprofessional for them to ask me to solve their differences.”

          …N-no it isn’t. That’s literally what a manager does? These are professional/workplace differences. This isn’t “Miranda likes decaf and Laura likes regular, so how do I resolve it?” or “Sometimes Miranda leaves a dirty mug in the sink and only washes it at the end of the day and Laura likes them done right away.”

      6. Laura*

        It’s so strange to me that neither LW or Laura know how to use the software that Miranda is using, but they have both decided she is lying/being resistant to change when she tells them it has limitations.

        I don’t think Miranda is being negative, I think she’s trying to tell the truth and LW and Laura just don’t want to hear it.

      7. Amaranth*

        Yeah, I was just gesturing speechlessly at the screen when I read the owner doesn’t know where their own business sources anything. Miranda has apparently been keeping the business running all this time, so the real question is, does it make money? Because that’s in large part due to Miranda. Laura feels like doing favors means she should be in charge. That kind of entitlement – and some past warehouse experiences – does make me wonder if that entitlement also leads Laura and her pals helping themselves to product when they are having their mean girls gossip sessions at the warehouse.

        1. MissBaudelaire*

          Mmm, helping themselves to product. Spending a lot of time gossiping instead of getting the work done. I remember a Queen Bees group at ex job. That sort of thing happened a lot.

          On top of that, if OP lets Laura think she’s in charge and can bully someone out/whisper in the boss’s ear to get someone out, that sets a reeeeeaaally ugly precedence.

          Laura tells her friends “Be nice to me, or I can get you fired with a click of my fingers!” because she can. That’s probably not a road they want to go down.

      8. TardyTardis*

        I was almost a Miranda, till Bigger Boss stepped in and smacked Laura around, much to the consternation of the OP at my ExJob. My Laura thought she was my new supervisor, even though I had to take over much of her work because she wasn’t up to speed yet. But my OP thought the sun rose and set of her Laura; she was so nice and organized birthday parties and was so very sociable! Again, I had to take over some of Laura’s work because she was so busy pointing out my mistakes and everyone else’s (but her errors somehow didn’t matter).

        My Laura didn’t stay there all that long once Bigger Boss stepped in. It was after that when my Op ended with fewer and fewer people to supervise, till she had only one.

    2. fish*

      This really jumped out to me: “I wanted my own business and camaraderie. The energy is so bad now.” These aren’t bad things to want, but it seems like the LW is mainly there for fun and good vibes, and is treating this like something that should mainly fulfill their emotional and social needs, not a business.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        This sounds so much like “I love food so I opened a restaurant! I got a space, hired a chef and a GM and that’s all I need to do!”
        If it was that easy to run a business, we would all quit our jobs and do it.

                1. Katrinka*

                  I have heard stories of worse, but none of them had the sheer cojones to appear on TV behaving like that and thinking somehow that they were great business people and managers.

          2. Worldwalker*

            Yeah, because so many of the would-be restaurateurs in Kitchen Nightmares said and did *exactly* that. And crashed and burned. (or fed Gordon Ramsay a bad shrimp)

        3. NerdyKris*

          There’s so many Bar Rescue episodes that start off with “I wanted a place to drink with my friends so I bought a bar!” and now they aren’t making money because all the drinks are comped and no actual customers are coming in.

          1. GreenDoor*

            NerdyKris, you forgot the part about how “I hired my best friend to be the manager even though he has no management experience and he brought on his fiance to be the head bartender even though she can’t tell a mimosa from a Manhattan.” Same thing here. OP let the new employee pick the other new employees.

          2. quill*

            Kitchen nightmares / bar rescue / any similar show drinking game.

            Owner has no prior experience hiring, managing, working in some essential aspect of the job.
            Owner doesn’t have any idea what is going on with their budget and / or product flow because they don’t do back of house stuff.
            Owner relies on employees to be available whenever, and also hires via their personal connections.
            Drama ensues because the position of “owner’s best bud” and “most competent professional” are treated equally when advising the owner on business decisions.

            Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m awash in tea from playing along with this letter, let me know if they fail health inspection. :)

            1. Katrinka*

              Also see: Tabitha Takes Over (or whatever the exact title is). She is pretty much the Gordon Ramsey of the salon world.

              2. Former Employee*

                I can’t believe I forgot that show, which I haven’t seen in ages. I loved it!

                The first time I saw Tabitha, I thought that the show was aptly named.

        4. Clisby*

          +100.

          I love books, so obviously I should open a bookstore. I know nothing at all about running any retail establishment.

          1. Selina Luna*

            I know a hell of a lot about running a retail establishment, which is why my “I should quit teaching and just open a bookstore/coffeeshop for all my weirdos” idea is going to stay an idea, and I’m never going to actually do it.

            1. Shenandoah*

              Absolutely same. There are some many ideas that I’ve had that have all come back to “oh, that’s actually retail and I hated every second of retail.”

              1. bluephone*

                LOL, same. I love fountain pens and stationery items and used to hear, regularly, that I should open my own stationery store.
                1) the ship for sustainable brick-and-mortar fountain pen/stationery stores sailed a long time ago, sank, and will likely never be brought up to the surface
                2) There is so much more to retail than just liking to write with pretty pens, I have no desire to attend business school (or a head for it if I did) or all the other things that go into a successful retail operation.
                3) sometimes the fastest/best way to kill your love for a hobby is to try and make a career out of it

                1. Mel2*

                  I enjoy making lots of crafts to give out as gifts to friends and family. Every so often someone will suggest I sell what I make, which I respond with a hearty “Definitely not!” I get enjoyment making things for others, but if I had to put a pricetag on my time I’d have to charging a tiny amount for my labor in order for the items to be priced to sell. Plus I do not want the pressure and expectations that come with selling crafts.

                2. FrenchCusser*

                  Ditto. I knit very well – but people have no idea how much time it takes to, say, knit a sweater.

                  Someone once offered me $50 for a double knitted scarf that I spent about 160 hours working on.

                  You do the math.

                  Now, if I could DESIGN knitwear, that might be a doable income stream.

                3. Crafter*

                  Sometimes people see something I’m making and ask if they can buy one. If I have the time to do it, I’ll tell them I just want them to make a donation to a local org I work with and they can decide what’s fair.

                4. Splendid Colors*

                  +1000

                  I could probably pay off my credit cards if I had a dollar for every time someone told me to “open my own store” to sell the gift items I make. They have NO IDEA how expensive it is to rent retail space anywhere that could get foot traffic–I have no illusions about being able to generate enough in sales when I’m not part of a craft fair funneling my target market to my doorstep to pay for rent, let alone other costs.

                  And retail is extremely exhausting for me–masking is so much effort that I can’t spare enough bandwidth to, say, watch for a “friend” of the buyer stuffing merch into their pockets. (This has happened at multiple events.)

                  “You can work while you watch the store!” Sure, for all the assembly and back-office stuff… but it’s literally illegal in my city to have a laser cutter in a retail shop (zoning issues) so I’d have to either run the laser all night somewhere else or pay someone to run the shop.

                5. Aerin*

                  I have an Etsy shop primarily so I can keep my crafting output from piling up and taking over my house, and because I occasionally get interesting custom requests. It’s not much of a side hustle, considering I stopped getting funds disbursed for 18 months (the credit card I had on file to pay my fees expired so they were being paid out of the balance) and I didn’t even *notice* until I started poking randomly in my shop settings.

                6. KHRose*

                  I love baking and I had a knack for making pretty cakes, to the point where I was offered a decorating job in a bakery (which I turned down because that’s a massive amount of time on my feet and my back doesn’t like it). For a few years baking cakes was my side hustle, but dealing with some Instagram moms and one absolute bridezilla made me so upset that I sat down, figured out how much I was making per hour for my side hustle, and realized immediately that the stress wasn’t fucking worth it.

                  I didn’t bake for six months after and didn’t make a cake for nearly a year because having the side hustle left such a bad taste in my mouth. I can’t imagine how shitty it would be to be that burnt out on a hobby but have to keep doing it because that’s not just your source of income, that’s your business and you’re going to lose a lot of money if you just walk away.

                7. Not So NewReader*

                  If business school is anything like the undergrad biz courses, don’t bother with it. It will not show you anything you can use in running a small business. Think: Back yard garden vs. corporate farm. It’s two very different things.

                8. Reluctant Manager*

                  Knitting for someone is like sleeping with someone. If you feel like it, you’ll do it for free. If you don’t feel like it, they can’t afford it.

                9. Sopranohannah*

                  My usual “can I buy a sweater from you?” Conversation goes something like this:

                  “Sure, I can make you one for $3500.”
                  “Why so high?”
                  “Because that’s what I’d make at my real job for the same amount of time.”

                  You can tell a lot of people have never considered how much effort goes into hand made items.

                10. MissBaudelaire*

                  Reminds me of all the Youtubers I see who are Youtubing as a hobby, take off, it’s a job and suddenly “Oh wow, this is a job. And to stay relevant and make my money, I have to do this every single day. And it takes all day. And there’s editing and everything else.” and they burn out.

                  All that stuff is fun to do, do it for fun! I once heard “The best way to be happy is to find what you love to do and trick someone into paying you to do it.” and that’s just not going to work for most people.

            2. knitcrazybooknut*

              People used to look at my book collection and say I should open a bookstore. The reason I have these books is because I like owning them. I also know that as soon as you turn an interest into a business, it becomes transactional and you learn about the business side of your interest. Your interest doesn’t get deeper and more indulged; it gets sidelined.

              1. Robin Ellacott*

                You’d be like Aziraphale in Good Omens, who has a bookstore and actively discourages anyone from buying any books because he wants to hoard them all.

                I find the idea quite relatable.

              2. Not So NewReader*

                Adding your interest gets diluted and then it finally vanishes.

                One problem with taking an interest into business is that you find out what that arena REALLY is about.

            3. Worldwalker*

              Yep. I love books. I have also run a store. I know if I were to open a bookstore, within a year I would never want to look at a book again. I would hate books, and ate my life.

            4. pandop*

              This is why Mum and I love ‘The Hotel Inspector’ – my parents ran a Guest House while I was growing up, and there’s a reason why I have a nice normal, salaried job …

              1. wittyrepartee*

                I have a friend whose parents own a restaurant. She won’t even date anyone in the restaurant business.

          3. mulberry*

            I was a student library worker in college and the number of people we lost every year who wanted to work in a library because “I like reading” was truly astounding. Like, the job is not sitting around reading for a 4-hour shift.

            2. becca*

              I run the circulation desk at an academic library and don’t hire people if their answer to “Why do you want to work in a library?” is “I love books! And libraries are so quiet!” You can say those things, but unless you follow it up with something about “And I would like to help people find the books that they’re looking for” (or anything about customer service), I’m not going to hire you because I’m pretty sure you don’t know what the job is.

        6. Medusa*

          Yeah, I’m guessing that Miranda is the one who has kept the business successful (I’m assuming, otherwise they would’ve shut down) for the past four years and now she’s being punished for it because the owner wanted a new best friend.

          1. Marzipan Shepherdess*

            I found it especially concerning that the OP doesn’t even seem to know what Miranda does; if she doesn’t have a good handle on that, how can she evaluate her work? How can she tell if Miranda is or is not doing a good job if she has such a poor grasp of what her job actually entails?

        7. Lauren*

          Miranda should just open her own business, since OPs will quickly die without her there. Let’s see how that friend is when she realizes the business isn’t profitable anymore and they are all out of a job or OP needs to delay payroll. I legit want Miranda to quit and let this dumpster fire be consumed ASAP.

      2. Lynca*

        I’m very concerned that OP’s sole reason to trust Laura is that she “managed my life for me so it seems natural she should be in charge.” That seems like a cry for help to me. OP are you okay because you should not be letting an employee (any employee) run your life.

        I get that life is hard. I’ve had things go on in my life that absolutely had me curled up on the floor crying and wishing for someone to fix everything. But this is not a normal employer/employee relationship. You state you left a lot of toxic jobs and you wanted this to be better. What is going on is toxic to this business and needs to be addressed.

        1. Mallory Janis Ian*

          I mean, running a business is not for people who want other people to tell them what to do and how to run their lives? It’s for people who want to be the ones running things and telling other people what their role is in contributing to that. At some point, when your business has scaled up enough, then you can have people who tell you what to do about certain things — but in the initial, early days of your business, you have to know enough yourself that you can shape what your employees do. Unless you’re just the capital-provider, I guess; but then if your accountant knows everything and you know nothing, that seems like it’s setting yourself up to get taken advantage of if they so choose.

          2. Properlike*

            THIS. I was scrolling through simply to get to this point.

            Not everyone is take-charge or cut out for telling others what to do, or for strategizing, or for delegating. (“Delegating” as in having the macro view of your company and being able to empower other competent people to do their part of the tasks of keeping said company up and running.) That’s okay! She needs a Life Coach on the outside, not in her warehouse telling the owner how to run her own business.

            Such a complete mess all around.

        2. Salsa Verde*

          Yes, are you OK is a good question for the OP to think about. This letter really does sound like a cry for help, in fact, OP says: I just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly.

          Perhaps owning your own business is not a good fit for you? Not in a derogatory way, I don’t think it’s for me either – I do not want that much responsibility and it sounds like you don’t either. Maybe you should think about getting out of business for yourself? Or selling the business to someone else and just working as an employee in the part you do like? Or appoint someone manager and just be a silent owner?

          1. Empress Matilda*

            Oh, same. I loved working in independent specialty bookstores when they were a thing (RIP, alas!). But there is not enough money in this world or the next, for me to take over running the entire business. No way, nope, never in a million years. Some people are just not cut out for entrepreneurship, and I am definitely one of them.

            1. KHRose*

              I think this is why a lot of people get pulled into MLMs. They give the illusion of being a “business owner” (or bossbabe or whatever you want to call it) but they have already established the brand and the supply line so a lot of the guess work is gone. You “own a business” AND have someone telling you what to do to run it and a supply line in place.

              Too bad they’re scams, but I can see the appeal of having the title without the actual responsibility.

              1. anonymous 5*

                I must admit, I wondered for a moment when reading the letter whether this is actually just an MLM.

            2. SwiftSunrise*

              HARD SAME. I currently work in an indie bookstore, and I enjoy it, but uh … running it? NOPE. Which is a problem, because my boss is in his 80s, and there’s not really anyone to take over after him.

        3. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

          Got to admit this is where my mind first went too. I mean, there are people who literally kept me alive last year but I don’t work with them and if I did I certainly wouldn’t give them payrises/promotions because of it.

          It’s human to want to thank someone for going above and beyond for you in a crisis. It’s good adulting to know what kind of appreciation is acceptable, and it’s also good professionalism to know where the limits are at work.

          It can be a long slog to learn those limits and even longer to put them into practice- took me decades and I’m still working on it! – but OP: take a step back, separate the personal from the professional.

        4. Archaeopteryx*

          Yes and OP you left a toxic situation only to create one. You have the power in this situation, so the toxicity is coming from you and you are responsible to stop it.

          1. Effective Immediately*

            Definitely made me pause and wonder what–and who–exactly was toxic about those past jobs, and what that actually means.

        5. FYI*

          It’s like a Lifetime movie. “I invited this person into my world, and they managed everything, and now I feel groggy all the time and can’t find my husband.”

        6. Littorally*

          Yeah, the more I think about it, the more it bothers me. I know we’re all dumping on the OP here for bad management, but I wonder if there’s some level of love-bombing or similar going on from Laura here.

          1. ElephantNoises*

            I also wonder how much of a problrm is Laura vs the OP. Many people feel absolutely indebted to their jobs and bosses. The business doesnt seem like it has good boundaries. Is it equally possiblr that OP may have put non work related problrms to her new employee who then felt obligated to step up and do what her boss needed?

            It doesnt make the treatment of Miranda any better, but these all sound like problrms that stemmed from initial poor boundaries and work expectations. Laura could have been just trying to survive and play with the rules OP has inadvertently set.

            1. ElephantNoises*

              Laura sounds pretty awful for sure. But all we have is OP’s view, and I don’t trust that she is a reliable narrator. Laura is likely a part of the problem, but OP has caused numerous problems by her lack of management.

        7. Not So NewReader*

          Laura reminds me of an invasive weed. She takes over everything. Then she brings in her friends knowing she will have more control (pull/cred/power) than you do, OP.

          Have you had your books audited by an outside professional? If no, then it might be time.

      3. onco fonco*

        That jumped out at me, too. LW, you don’t seem to me like you want to run a business. You don’t know what’s going on in your business, and when people bring you problems you don’t want to deal with it. It seems like your idea was to be your own boss because it would be more fun, and… that’s the extent of your plan? If anything in adult life actually works like that, please point me at it because I definitely haven’t encountered it so far.

        Can you put yourself in Miranda’s shoes just for a minute? How would you feel if a former boss of yours did to you what you and Laura are doing to Miranda?

        1. FrenchCusser*

          Especially since it seems that Miranda’s the one who’s kept the place afloat for the past 4 years.

          I’d be literally jumping up and down and protesting (and looking for another job) is I were Miranda.

          1. Worldwalker*

            If Miranda is smart, she’s reading this right now, during a break from reading all of Alison’s advice on how to get a new — and better — job.

            1. Good Vibes Steve*

              I highly suspect Miranda has been dusting her CV for a while now and has a foot out of the door. This situation will solve itself for OP, and then they’ll find out the hard way just how much Miranda was doing.

          2. Splendid Colors*

            I identify so much with Miranda. I can easily see myself as the person who Got Stuff Done and wasn’t afraid to point out what our software couldn’t do–but didn’t have the political savvy to keep from getting pushed out by a brown-nosing weasel who ganged up on me with her clique. I’m glad Alison sees that Laura is the problem.

            3. onco fonco*

              It worries me so much that LW is so focused on ‘camaraderie’ and that’s the whole reason she likes Laura and her little gang – because they get on well together (of course they do, they were all friends before) and so when they’re at work, it LOOKS like what LW pictured when she first thought of owning her own business. And Miranda keeps saying unfun things like no we can’t do that, and no that’s not how this works, and what do you mean you’re demoting me, and OK so what’s my new job supposed to look like – and she cannot win, because LW has no comprehension of what performance looks like in any of these roles. They just like it when people make them feel good. To the extent that they thought it would be reasonable for Miranda to drive 18 hours every week to spend 3 days in the office purely for ‘morale’. Whose morale? Not Miranda’s, that’s for sure. It’s to stop the loudest complaints from the most popular kids, so that LW can get back to feeling nice and comfortable.

              1. MissBaudelaire*

                You’re right. It is a bit like LW is saying “Miranda is really harshing my vibe, so it’s cool to make her do all the work in the background with none of the credit, right?”

              2. Effective Immediately*

                These are the kinds of bosses I find it most difficult to work for. I’ve been in the position of having a boss whose assessment of my work was solely predicated on how good I made him feel about himself, and it’s just grotesque to me. No matter how objectively successful I was at my job, it didn’t matter because the currency at the organization was baseless flattery.

                I think OP needs to re-read the story about the Emperor and his Clothes, when reflecting on their own behavior and Laura’s.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          My friend runs his own business. He’s been doing it for decades. He’s the sole owner and he hires occasional (goes with the seasons) employees/contractors to do specialized work for him. There is very little in his business that he cannot do.

      4. Marzipan Shepherdess*

        Many people want their own business and almost everyone wants a group of friends. The trouble is that the OP has conflated the two; they want their employees to be their friends. That’s a recipe for infighting, backbiting and sabotage – which is exactly what’s happening. OP, you cannot be your employees’ BFF; you can and should be their BOSS! Right now it sounds as if you’re letting your company devolve into middle-school mean-kid behavior.
        Oh, and it also looks as if Laura is leading you around by the nose; she may or may not be plotting a takeover of your business, but she’s already convinced you that Miranda (about whose job you know so little that you can’t evaluate her work -WTH?!) is poison and has installed her friends in your company. Please, OP – wake up and smell the coffee (as Ann Landers used to write) before your company is down the drain and your “friend” Laura has departed for greener pastures!

        1. Clisby*

          Yes, this jumped out at me: “I’m ashamed to admit I don’t know if Miranda is right or not and I don’t know what is a mistake and what isn’t or about our software and the business and limitations. I haven’t used our software in years and I don’t know that much about our product sourcing and things that Laura wants to change.”

          This is a GIANT problem, and I don’t understand how you think you can run a business without getting a grip on it.

          1. quill*

            Yeah. OP doesn’t need to know everything about their employees jobs but they NEED to know enough about it to make decisions! Before taking any action on anything Laura says you should know more than enough to know your own mind.

      5. BRR*

        The next sentence heavily ties into this as well. “I just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly.” That strongly doesn’t align with being a business owner.

        1. Coder von Frankenstein*

          Exactly this. Owning a business comes with a *ton* of responsibility and stress (as OP has learned). I have friends who are business owners, and I admire them greatly, but I do not want to do what they do! The only reason to take on that burden is if you really, really care about being in charge of your own work.

          If you are okay with letting others tell you what to do, you are much better off working for someone else. If your past jobs have been toxic, the solution is to learn how to spot toxic work environments before you take the job–this very website is full of good guidance on how to do that.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            And you still are not truly in charge of your own work.
            The government has a bunch of rules.
            The tax folks have a bunch of rules.
            Paying customers have their say but sometimes the customers who walk out and never buy anything can have even MORE say.
            Vendors have rules.
            Services such as electricians, plumber and trash removers all come with rules.

            In the end the business owner can actually feel like they are working for all these people. It’s easy to feel like there are a million bosses running your own business.

          2. MM*

            Or, I mean….I don’t want to be mean here. But if OP has found that all her past workplaces are toxic, and now this is happening–that is, a toxic situation has emerged in her business–then maybe the problem is OP, and was never the jobs or the bosses. I would like to advise OP to really consider that possibility in reevaluating why they wanted to own a business, how they’re going about it, and how they got here, but it seems like probably too much to ask right now.

      6. Escapee from Corporate Management*

        This, to me, is the worst of all of this mess. OP, if you think there is a lack of camaraderie, consider your actions:
        • You demoted an employee, not for poor performance, but to reward someone else. They were punished and did nothing wrong. That’s a nasty thing to do.
        • When the employee asks for guidance on her job, you refuse to answer and tell her she should know. That’s callous.
        • You pay the demoted employee to work 9-5 and then complain that she is not working nights and weekend. That’s manipulative.
        • You reward one employee for doing personal favors for you. That’s favoritism.

        OP, how can you expect camaraderie if you are doing so much to prevent it?

        1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

          And I forgot the suggestion that Miranda come in to the store three days a week FOR NO GOOD REASON. Which requires a six-hour commute each day. That’s just cruel.

          Sorry to pile on, OP, but as a small business owner myself, I look at what you are doing and shake my head. If I acted like this, my partners would team up and fire me in a millisecond.

        2. Archaeopteryx*

          And why should Miranda “just know” the exact job description of her newly-demoted position, when you don’t even know the details of what she does?

          Do not expect a 9 – 5 employee to respond to you at all outside of those exact hours. You have no right to any work, including an answered question, from her outside of 9 – 5 M – F.

          1. Splendid Colors*

            If Miranda had written in “Dear Alison, I was just demoted so the owner could reward a newer employee who does her personal favors. Yet they still expect me to be on-call evenings and weekends via email, show up in person when my position has always been remote and I live 6 hours away…”

            Alison would’ve told her to set boundaries to respond only 9-5 AND LOOK FOR A NEW JOB.

            1. BeckyinDuluth*

              I’m personally wondering if Miranda DID write the letter. And is going to show it to their manager.

          2. Archaeopteryx*

            (Oh and if she is hourly? You owe her pay for any time she did respond to you outside her normal hours.)

        3. Marzipan Shepherdess*

          And if Miranda actually DOES work on weekends but isn’t paid for her work, wouldn’t that be illegal? Or would it matter if she were exempt vs. non-exempt?

        4. Knope Knope Knope*

          Yeah! I mean every single thing in this letter is terrible but for some reason the “she should know her job description” really jumped out at me. Like you’re her boss. You changed her jd. You don’t even know what it is. And somehow Miranda not just knowing either is a bad sign for HER? WTF, she thought she knew her JD for 4 years and just got her demoted. I can’t wait to see this letter on the worst boss nominations this year. (You means OP, btw).

        5. MissBaudelaire*

          Yeah, I’m really disgusting at “Miranda is making me wait for an answer!” Um, you demoted her. Why shouldn’t she put up boundaries? Obviously being available to OP all the time wasn’t benefitting her. So she stopped doing it.

          Miranda isn’t going to light herself on fire to keep OP warm, and she shouldn’t be asked to.

      7. Not Your Sweetheart*

        And ended the letter with “I just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly.” You shouldn’t run your own business if you don’t want to make decisions on your own. The fact that she has no understanding of the current software, or those recommend by Laura is concerning.

      8. Amaranth*

        Thats even more interesting considering she had one employee on the other side of the state for four years.

      9. Ellie*

        That line jumped out at me too, and begs the question – if the energy is so bad now, who is making it bad? It’s not Miranda, who’s not even in the office. It must be Laura – is she trash talking Miranda? Is she pushing OP to fire her? If that’s the case then firing Miranda is not going to solve anything, and will probably just bring its own set of problems when there’s no-one around who can answer these kinds of questions.

        OP – if you want to save your business, you need to meet with Miranda one-on-one and apologize to her for taking her job title away. If you don’t have a job description for her, you should craft one (possibly with her sitting next to you, if you really don’t know everything that she does) and show her that you appreciate what she does. Then you should sit down with Laura and have a conversation about being able to work with different personalities, and how working remotely should not interfere with getting the job done. Then see how she reacts. If she seems to be making a concerted effort, then it might all be good. If she doubles down, then you’ll probably have to let her go, and then watch her friends to see if they’re more loyal to her, or to you.

        Either way, its your business OP, and if its a small one, then you likely have the power to reshape it as you chose. Have a think about who you really need working there, and whether things were better before Laura came on board.

        1. Liz T*

          I’m guessing Laura’s staff find her “difficult” because she wants them to actually do their jobs?

        2. Chidi-Janet & The Tarantula Squids*

          Not only holding it together, but for years she has been instrumental in growing the business enough support upsvaling operations and bringing on more staff.
          I wouldn’t be surprised if Miranda is actively job searching so she can get out before she’s pushed or the business falls apart.

          1. Chidi-Janet & The Tarantula Squids*

            *growing the business enough to support upscaling operations

            Forking phone keyboard.

          2. No Longer Looking*

            Indeed. It sounds like rather than demoting Miranda, OP should have been looking into making her a partner.

            2. Splendid Colors*

              If I had the cash flow, I’d hire Miranda to be my Chief Operating Officer. Because that’s what her job title should be, based on OP’s description of her role.

              1. qvaken*

                I think it has to be a publicly-listed company with a Board of Directors for there to be Chief Officers of any sort – is that right? She would just become a business partner or a joint director in the company (after negotiations with OP), I would have thought.

                Though to be honest, I don’t think OP is savvy enough, nor Miranda silly enough, to entertain this idea.

    4. AnonEMoose*

      I agree with this. This is your company. It is your responsibility to know what is happening, especially at the current size of things. How can you possibly make good business decisions without knowing any of this information? Maybe you don’t need to know all the details, but you should be way more aware than you apparently are.

      Do you even keep track of the finances? Maybe I’m paranoid, and I am admittedly speculating here, but if you got rid of Miranda and Laura started managing the finances…would you know if something was wrong? It just seems like you’re really vulnerable to someone taking advantage of you, and this whole situation makes me really uneasy.

      1. Collarbone High*

        “Laura recommended all the warehouse staff” also raised my eyebrows. It’s possible that’s totally legit, but “all the people with access to inventory are friends” plus “owner has no insight into day-to-day operations” is a recipe for theft.

        1. Purlesque*

          Yes. And Laura wants to know even more of how Miranda runs things. If things go south with Laura, then she and her friends are in a good position to start up their own business competing with LW. I’m not saying that this is her conscious plan, but it could be or ot could just shake out that way.

          Also, all those personal favors sound suspiciously like “love bombing”, and combined with Laura’s behavior toward Miranda, things are likely to go badly between Laura and LW eventually. I have known some ‘Laura’s in the past.

          1. So they all rolled over and one fell out*

            A competing business is the least of OP’s worries. A competing business with initial stock stolen from OP’s warehouse, maybe.

            1. IndustriousLabRat*

              This jumped out at me too- I wondered if the “mistakes” that Laura is accusing Miranda of making are simply Laura trying to gaslight LW into not seeing/not digging into irregularities that Miranda has flagged.

              1. quill*

                I did wonder if the “mistakes” that suddenly arose since laura got there were Laura covering up for not doing part of her job (checking in packages?) Laura blaming covid shipping difficulties on Miranda (possible) or you know, blatant theft.

          2. Night Vale Seems Good By Comparison*

            Yes! It might be a stretch, but this situation reminds me of the parasites who prey on senior citizens, especially those with cognitive issues. They pretend to befriend them, convince them their families can’t be trusted, and then abscond with all their assets. While OP is (probably) not such a senior citizen, her complete ignorance about her own business leaves her very vulnerable to being exploited in the same way. She doesn’t even know enough to judge who is telling the truth!!

            I have friends who own small businesses, and unless OP is wealthy enough to regularly infuse cash in the business, there is NO WAY it would have survived for FOUR years, let alone grown, if Miranda were as incompetent as Laura is stating.

        2. Sparkles McFadden*

          Yes…and Laura is trying to push out the finance person who would most likely catch that.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            THIS.

            I’ve seen this before, a new person working to remove the one other person who could read numbers. The new person succeeded, and two years later was arrested for embezzlement. About two years of it…

            1. Windchime*

              Yep I have a friend (who reads this blog) and that happened to her. She was the new employee and was confused about some weird financial things, and finally the accountant in charge insisted on my friend being fired for not being able to catch on to their convoluted financial system. Fast forward a couple of years and the accountant is arrested for embezzlement.

            2. Knope Knope Knope*

              Yeah. OP should be on high alert for this. They’ve made it so clear in this letter they don’t really know the inner workings of their own business I’m sure a potential con artist or thief would pick up on it in a second. Dangerous situation for OP.

        3. JB*

          Honestly, I was thinking the same.

          What kind of ‘mistakes’ is Laura correcting on the daily? ‘Mistakes’ in inventory count, or perhaps Laura finds that Miranda is ‘underestimating’ how much is due to various vendors?

          Laura is going after Miranda because she recognized without Miranda there to watch the numbers, she can rob LW blind.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            OP, you (and your people) should be doing a physical inventory of stock on a set interval. They even have companies now that will come in and help do your inventory for you.

        4. HarvestKaleSlaw*

          Oh for real. I knew the second I read that – whatever LW’s selling, a lot of it has been falling off the truck lately.

      2. Goat Herder*

        “Do you even keep track of the finances? Maybe I’m paranoid, and I am admittedly speculating here, but if you got rid of Miranda and Laura started managing the finances…would you know if something was wrong? It just seems like you’re really vulnerable to someone taking advantage of you, and this whole situation makes me really uneasy.”

        This x1,000!!! Miranda and Laura’s issues aside, I think we’re all advocating that you take a much more active role in overseeing your business. If you own a small business but do not know what your employees do or want to get involved in disputes, you’re effectively handing over the reins to whoever is the loudest. Being a manager isn’t always fun but it is necessary. It’s very easy when you only have a small team to slip into that “we’re all friends/family here” dynamic and to allow personal relationships your ability to manage effectively.

        It’s also very common to want to start your own business to enjoy the creative aspects of your job, but to shy away from the more technical elements required. In the four years Miranda worked for you, how did you handle the admin and IT accountabilities when she went on vacation or got sick? Did those things just get put on the backburner until she came back? In the event that Miranda decides to leave, would you be able to handle her role until you hire someone new (especially since Laura is already struggling with key parts of her new job)?

        1. L.H. Puttgrass*

          Very much this. For all we know, Miranda has been doing the job poorly and it’s taken Laura’s hard look at everything to realize it. But OP has no way to know, either! Whatever OP does with Laura and Miranda is less critical of an issue than whether OP can get enough of a handle on their own business to know whether their employees are doing their jobs.

          1. Raida*

            Absolutely. OP needs a business analyst/auditor to give her a real, unbiased layout of the business and set up KPI reporting so she has a friggin’ baseline to know when there’s issues.
            Right now…? Maybe both Miranda and Laura are incompetent in different and interesting ways. Maybe Miranda’s bad with numbers. Maybe Laura is stealing.
            Who knows? not OP!

          2. Knope Knope Knope*

            Agreed but all the reasons Laura give in this letter are so obviously shady and manipulative she cannot be trusted either.

        2. emmelemm*

          Right! As AAM is fond of pointing out, what if Miranda gets hit by a bus? And you know nothing about what she does, how to use your business’ software, who your suppliers are and what your agreements are with them? This is a recipe for disaster.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            It’s SOP for a business owner to have a plan on how to replace each person if something comes up. Additionally, some people get insurance on their key people- to protect against loss if a key person quits.

      3. Poopsie*

        I had the same thought. Obviously there’s no real reason to suspect this would have been the outcome, but as I was reading this I really felt if the OP hadn’t written in about this they might have in a year or so with a letter about how they have had an employee oust them from their own business.

        Sorry to be harsh but the OP needs to get their head out of their bottom and be more hands on. They don’t know what Miranda does? What if she was hit by a bus one day and you would be stuffed. Have everyone’s roles defined, know roughly what each person does and have access to info about who your services are run through. Learn the system if you have to, to a level where you have a rough idea of what is happening in your own company so you can make an informed decision about everything, and can retain control in an emergency. But do it in a way that Miranda knows you aren’t punishing her further or going to replace her, so that you do know how it works. Maybe apologise to Miranda and say you are working to try and fix everything but to do that you need to know about her processes. That way you can make an informed decision about just who is the good or bad employee here.

        1. JustaTech*

          Very much this. I’ve seen this happen in small businesses (usually longer-standing than 4 years) where there’s one employee who just sort of starts being the only person who knows how to do things, and the owner is so relieved to stop doing those things that the owner doesn’t realize that they don’t actually know how to run their own business anymore.

          So, apologize to Miranda and learn your ding-dang software! If you have successfully run a business for 4 years you can learn at least the basics of your software. It will not bite you.
          I see so many people hamstring themselves by deciding that all software is impossible. And let’s be real, a lot of software is poorly designed and hard to use. But you can take notes and make cheat sheet for yourself and understand the basics. You’ve learned to manage customers and inventory and taxes and all the rest of that, you can learn your software well enough to know what’s going on.

          1. Butterfly Counter*

            This is where I come down too! It’s so frustrating to read, “Laura says Miranda is doing X but I don’t know if it’s true. Miranda says this software is better, but I don’t know.” OMG! FIND OUT!!! These aren’t deep mysteries of the universe! These are things you can look into with your own eyes and experiences and make your own judgment call! And then you’ll know who is being truthful and trustworthy and who isn’t aside from whoever you like better, and make an actual business decision.

            If these are things you have trouble with, have someone teach you so you get at least a basic understanding. I just can’t conceive of tying your whole professional life in a small business and then not have at least a basic working knowledge of the things needed to keep it going.

            1. Green Beans*

              Or you can do what my boss did and have people walk you through what something is, what benefits it provides, what are the downsides/alternatives, and why you need it.

              It doesn’t take much to say, Hey, I don’t actually understand our software. Can you walk me through it on a high-level, including major benefits and limitations?

              The devil’s in the details. If there’s any major lies going on, they’ll start being really obvious once they have to start presenting their issues in logical, formal ways with the OP knowing the big picture (and the OP can always google, can X Software do Y?)

            2. Poopsie*

              Agreed. Maybe Laura is right. Maybe Miranda’s been bad at her job all these years, maybe criminally – for all OP knows she might have gone to her family and said ‘har har the owner doesn’t know what’s going on and I have control of the finances. Set up a business in Great Aunt Wakeen’s name, buy Splorts in at 1c a Splort and I’ll place orders with you for 20c a Splort because I place the orders and authorise the payments, and we will split the loot between us’. Maybe she’s good at her job, maybe she knows that other software looks good but isn’t practical to use, and Laura doesn’t know her rear from her elbow. The point is OP admits she doesn’t know so shouldn’t take one side over the other without solid info.

              But the onus is on her to decide what she wants to do with the business – if she doesn’t want to be involved to the degree needed, sell it or hire someone to run it. But if she does, she needs to understand the business and that includes an overview of the functions/parts of the business she finds boring and is the reason she hired someone to deal with it. If you don’t at least have a basic understanding then you are open to anything. Who knows if there’s a bill to come from the IRS because taxes haven’t been paid, or a fraud investigation that OP will ultimately be on the hook for.

              OP needs to say to all her employees, not pointing blame, that she realises she’s become a bit too hands off and will be meeting with everyone individually (or however works best) to go through their roles, to understand what they do and how the jobs mesh together and to reorient herself with the basics of the business – who knows, maybe Laura’s friends aren’t both actually needed as their jobs overlap and there’s not enough work for both, that’s entirely possible as well. Think of it like a company audit and maybe as part of that ask what companies they work with for what service, then you can look at if it’s the best option for your needs. If nothing else you will also be able to look at what your staff do and know if you are paying them appropriately.

              Don’t take what Laura says at face value just because she’s your friend. Yes you trust her, but ultimately the one who is responsible for all this is you OP. I think OP will get it from all the replies here so I really don’t want to harp on but one more example – you said Laura says ‘that if Miranda cared about the company she’d move to be closer to the warehouse and office’…Alison has adequately addressed that but to expand, if I got a job at your business and moved in next door and offered to drive your pet stick insect to the vets that means I’m now more committed than Laura who lives a bit further away? That way lies preferential treatment, cliques and toxic workplaces. People prove their commitment by performing their job in a timely and competent manner, not by who’s better friends with the boss.

              1. CurrentlyBill*

                And if Laura volunteers to introduce you to a friend who is a professional auditor/consultant who can do this analysis for you, well…

                How do you think that will go?

            3. Worldwalker*

              And besides being things you *can* do, they’re things that literally millions of other business owners *do* do. “It’s too hard” doesn’t cut it; the buck stops with you.

          2. Mallory Janis Ian*

            If you have successfully run a business for 4 years . . .

            It seems like *Miranda* has successfully run a business for 4 years.

            1. SomebodyElse*

              This is absolutely the truth here.

              Miranda, are you out there? Leave this sinking ship and find a place that will treat you as you deserve to be treated. This is a sinking ship!

          3. Chinookwind*

            This! My mother opened her own business with a silent partner (whom she later bought out) who taught her how to run it. When she didn’t understand new tech, whether it was a POS upgrade or Facebook advertising, she found someone she trusted to explain it to her (usually me or my sister – we know how to translate techno babble to mom-friendly words) and she took step by step notes and asked detailed questions. She realized that, if she wanted to be successful, she had to check her ego and ask people she trusted implicitly to help (and it does require an ego check to ask your 20 year old daughter for help)

        2. FrenchCusser*

          I also recommend a regular audit. If you don’t understand accounting or bookkeeping, hire someone who does to keep an eye on that.

            1. Amaranth*

              I tend to assume that if Miranda had been accused of embezzlement then OP would have said that, rather than ‘bad at her job’ but a lot of the letter is about *feelings* rather than business details.

              1. FrenchCusser*

                I actually mentioned an audit to keep an eye on Laura, not Miranda, because I doubt Laura is trustworthy.

      4. Artemesia*

        I once consulted with an operation where the data management was central and the director didn’t understand the software; it was a disaster because she was over a barrel with the person who did manage the data. In this case, she needed to learn her ax and he needed to go. In the case of Miranda, she MAY in fact be on top of the software and data management but you have no way of judging so you have allowed Laura to poison your view of her.

        The second thing that jumped out is how vulnerable you are to embezzlement — The owner needs to be on top of the financials and that means being able to understand the data she has. Laura seems like a potential thief as does Miranda — not because they are either of them dishonest — but how would you know. This appears to be a business without normal business controls understood by the owner. I have known a small business owner and a non-profit where trusted employees embezzled. One was a close friend of the owner and in the non-profit it was the business manager who had been trusted for 25 years to run that side of the business with no real oversight.

        You are good with Miranda, Laura sweeps in and suddenly Miranda is ‘doing a terrible job’ and Laura takes the reins. The business is in big trouble and needs active management with an understanding of how things work and who can understand the data products even if not using them.

        1. NerdyKris*

          There’s a letter on this site from someone who ended up with something like $200,000 in personal expenses on the company credit card. It started off as just putting a few expenses on there in a pinch, and then the pinch didn’t stop, and it just spiraled over a few years. Embezzlement is sometimes done by people with bad intentions, and almost equally as often it’s by someone who’s in a pinch and figures what you won’t know won’t hurt you.

        2. HarvestKaleSlaw*

          I used to work at an accounting firm where the clients were all these micro businesses: bodegas, guys who rent out bounce houses for parties, mechanic shops, small retail… You want to think that embezzlement is a rare thing, but I no longer do.

          Admittedly, the sample was skewed. A lot of places called in an accounting firm only when they started to get nasty letters about unpaid taxes or when they couldn’t figure out why they had so much trouble meeting payroll… but even so. It was a downer, in terms of human nature.

        3. Iris Eyes*

          Who knows it may really be a battle between the “smart” embezzler who is skimming the cream and the parasitic embezzler who will drain you dry.

          1. Aerin*

            Okay but I want to see a movie with that plot now. ::eyes my pile of pending writing projects::

        4. Djuna*

          I worked for a retail chain with the weirdest, most time consuming, cash reconciliation process imaginable. Think details like #of coins, weight of coins, value of coins for every coin and the same deal for banknotes. You were basically triple-checking and triple-entering everything in slightly different ways, and then doing a final quadruple check at the end. Double-entry on steroids.

          Once, when the owner visited and was in the office while I was doing the cash, we got to chatting. I asked him why it was set up that way. I’d worked in a cash office before and never seen something so complex.
          Turns out they had had an embezzlement problem where an entire floor (with 5 floats) of their flagship store collaborated to skim a substantial amount over a couple of years. So they built this system with a bunch of tripwires in it to help them catch anyone trying to fudge the numbers. Made perfect sense.

          You can bet he knew his designed-just-for-them software inside out, but that was after he’d taken a hit to his pocket, his pride, and his trust in his employees. LW should be extremely wary and get right to understanding that software, and evaluate things without Laura-tinted glasses on.

          When I left that job, they spent 18 months trying to get me to come back, and I was a mere cog in the machine. I can’t imagine where LW would be if Miranda upped and left (and if I was Miranda, I’d be actively job-hunting already).

      5. Archaeopteryx*

        Yes, having worked at a small business that was a toxic cesspit of dysfunction, one thing that happened when management wanted to be as hands-off as they could (e.g. chillin in their office most of the day and giving me the poisonous combination of responsibility for managing staff but no hiring/firing power and oh we don’t like to fire people here) was that the accountant embezzled thousands of dollars out of the place and it wasn’t noticed for months.

    6. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      OP, I don’t want to sound harsh, but while you own the store, you aren’t running it. You need to reframe your role. Are you an non-operating owner or a real hands-on manager? You can be one or the other. Not both.

      1. SheLooksFamiliar*

        Even in large companies, I’ve known Area Presidents, SVPs, etc., who trained with their team any time a new software package or process launched. They understood how a raw material order process was supposed to work, even if they weren’t placing the orders themselves, and needed to know these things to really have ‘the big picture.’ If executive-level leaders can be conversant on topics like this, then small business owners don’t get a pass.

        OP, this is your privately owned business, and you should know how it runs better than anyone else. You need the big picture too, but at this stage you also need to know the details of running your business.

      2. AB*

        Right!
        “She’s been with me forever (almost four years) and I’ve never noticed how bad a job she does until my new employee came on board.”
        Like, how have you not noticed? Either she’s not doing a bad job, or you know nothing about your own business.

    7. Putting the Fun in Dysfunctional*

      I agree completely. As the owner and operator not understanding how things run leaves her vulnerable to be embezzlement and theft from staff. Laura is manipulative and knows the lay of the land and who is competent and who is not. She has systematically targeted Miranda from day one. Miranda is the only one that knows how things actually runs and Laura is pushing to get her out. In a few months the update from the letter writer will be Miranda left and the business tanked and I don’t know what went wrong or where all the money went. OP you really need to get back to understanding your business, in minute detail, because a catastrophe is waiting to happen.

      1. AnonEMoose*

        I’m glad I’m not the only one whose brain “went there” with the embezzlement vulnerability. I really hope the OP can head that off.

        1. RunShaker*

          My brain did as well. It is a huge flashing bill board screaming come embezzle from me. Also, I said further down in comments, Laura isn’t OP’s friend either. Laura is manipulative & taking advantage of OP.

      2. Yet Another Analyst*

        This this this.

        OP, I sincerely hope this is garden variety mean girls nonsense and Laura just loves to make trouble, but please, *please* consider that Laura may be actively stealing from you. Laura gets a new job as warehouse manager and immediately starts “fixing” mistakes your bookkeeper’s making? Suggesting changes to sourcing processes that your bookeeper objects to? Trying to actively replace your bookeeper, despite evidently not having any qualifications in that department? And now she’s moved on to ultimatums and absurd exaggeration about feeling “unsafe” working with the bookkeeper, who lives three hours away and never comes into the office??

        Lock everything down. Fire Laura, and then do a thorough audit. Be prepared to fire Laura’s friends as a result of what you find.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Either or both of them could be skimming –and OPEN wouldn’t know.
          Lock everything down, do an audit yes — but it could be either of them. So audit a year before Laura was hired as well as this year. Be prepared to fire someone and hope you don’t have enough loss to file charges.

          1. Empress Matilda*

            So audit a year before Laura was hired as well as this year.

            Yes. Because you need to know what Laura and her friends are doing, but you also need to know what has changed – what’s different now, from when it was just you and Miranda?

            Also, don’t let the phrase “do an audit” scare you. It doesn’t mean you need to do it yourself! And in fact, please don’t do it yourself. You admit you don’t know a lot about how the business runs, and others have pointed out that the business is vulnerable to exploitation, so this is definitely a situation that calls for an independent review.

            Start by googling “small business audit services” and your location. And I hate to be paranoid, but I would do this at home or on an incognito browser. You do not want your employees to get any hints about what you’re up to here – if one of them is out to sabotage you, they might just grab the money and run if they think there’s going to be an audit.

            Wishing you good luck, and tons of strength and perseverance to get through all this.

          2. Empress Matilda*

            (I think my original response has vanished into cyberspace – sorry if this is a duplicate!)

            I just wanted to point out that “do an audit” doesn’t mean you have to do it yourself. And in fact, given that you don’t know a lot about the business, you probably shouldn’t do it yourself! This is a service that you can buy, and you’ll probably get a lot of benefit beyond just the immediate situation with Laura and Miranda.

            Start by googling “small business audit services” and your location. And I hate to be paranoid, but you should do this from home or from an incognito browser. If one of your employees is out to sabotage the business, you definitely don’t want them finding out that you’re thinking of doing an audit.

            Good luck!

        2. alienor*

          That “unsafe” comment from Laura really bugged me. Not only is it very difficult for Laura to be unsafe working with someone who isn’t there (unless Miranda is a witch and can put the whammy on her from 200 miles away) but it sounds like Laura is co-opting language that’s meant to be used for flagging specific types of aggression. There’s something really manipulative and off-putting about casting “I don’t like this person because I think they have a negative attitude about our work” in the same light as “I’m not safe working i the same office with this person because they are openly homophobic and I am gay.”

          1. Splendid Colors*

            The only way that Miranda is “unsafe” to Laura is that Miranda is in a position to expose any embezzlement or other shenanigans by Laura and her clique.

          2. Worldwalker*

            Yeah. “Unsafe” means “may come to actual harm” not “they’re harshing my vibe”.

          3. quill*

            Also if she felt unsafe why should she be advocating for someone to drive six hours to come to the location three days a wek?

          4. Not So NewReader*

            Miranda is three hours away from Laura. Miranda has zero interest in working in person.
            I doubt she is going to drive to work to rig Laura’s car or something.

            Specifically what does Laura expect to happen that makes her feel “unsafe”. I think she chose that particular word to get OP riled up/ upset/ turn OP against Miranda.

            1. Airy*

              I remember once when I was trying to make a complaint about an instructor on a course I was taking being harshly critical and nuking my confidence as a learner, being encouraged to say she “made me feel unsafe” or nothing would happen (at least, that’s how it sounded to me, bearing in mind I was very anxious and depressed at the time), and I was like “I don’t think she’s going to DO anything to me, she’s just really mean and demoralising and I can’t learn from her” and ended up dropping it because while I hated and feared her as a teacher I wasn’t going to lie about her. Particularly as I used to be a teacher myself, which is why I had a problem with her approach. The use of “unsafe” can get really weird and a bit shady.

      3. Knope Knope Knope*

        I don’t know enough about embezzlement and theft (thankfully) to know how this could play out in a business owned by OP, but I do know as a boss pleading ignorance is never an excuse for things that go wrong. I assume OP is not only opening herself up to theft, but to taking the fall legally if her business is stealing.

    8. Hills to Die on*

      Laura is not the primary problem.
      Miranda is not the primary problem.
      There is a huge opportunity for you to understand your business better and be a better boss. Your business and your employees and YOU will all be in an improved, happier position for it.

    9. Never mine straight down*

      LW, you seem strangely oblivious to the workings of your own small business. It’s just, it used to be just Miranda and you, the boss. If Miranda truly did a shit job for 4! years how on earth did you not know??? I’m also firmly in the camp of thinking Laura is the shit stirrer here and obviously wants to get rid of Miranda. And btw what mistakes was Miranda supposed to be making according to Laura. Did you really check if it was true?
      I would probably recommend outsourcing your warehouse/shipping again to a company. Because gently, I dont think you are able to effectively manage employees. I mean for example like PP s have said of course they put you in the middle you are the boss.
      I hope for you you havn’t totally burned the bridge with Miranda. Because if I was her I would walk.

      1. onco fonco*

        Yes! If the business stayed afloat when it was just LW and Miranda, and LW has no idea what Miranda does or how the business works, then – Miranda was running the business, and apparently doing well enough to keep them in profit. What *exactly* does Laura think Miranda has been screwing up? Can she point to concrete things?

        Also, why oh why would you demote Miranda, put Laura in her role, and then expect Miranda to just keep handling the parts of her old role that Laura doesn’t know how to do? That’s not how roles work!

        1. Batgirl*

          Miranda has been screwing up by not doing personal favours, “caring enough” to relocate, not responding to emails at night and not being the OP’s friend+saviour. Those aren’t job duties, but who cares, when Laura seems too good to be true! (Or is actually too good to be true).

          1. Mallory Janis Ian*

            +1

            Miranda has been successfully running the business for 4 years, but in retrospect, she should have been providing personal favors and validation and being a BFF, so now she’s shite.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              In work places like this the favor-doers are called suck-ups or “the In Group”. Miranda is out of the group and she knows it.

        2. TootsNYC*

          I could see promoting Laura, but to demote Miranda? I guess you can only have one person in charge of purchasing, but…

      2. Teapot Repair Technician*

        I would probably recommend outsourcing your warehouse/shipping again to a company.

        This is one of the few useful bits of advice I’ve noticed in this comment section. I hope OP sees it and seriously considers it.

        If your company went from using a “shipping company” to operating a warehouse with a staff of three, that’s a huge transition, one that entirely changes the nature of your business. And it sounds like the transition went badly. I would think about transitioning back.

        (There’s probably a reason why many online retailers are drop-shippers who never actually touch the products they sell, and you many have discovered it.)

    10. Person from the Resume*

      You are the manager, boss, and owner. You need to manage your employees and your business. I’ve rarely seen a letter where the answer is so obviously the LW is the problem.

      I’m ashamed to admit I don’t know if Miranda is right or not and I don’t know what is a mistake and what isn’t or about our software and the business and limitations. I haven’t used our software in years and I don’t know that much about our product sourcing and things that Laura wants to change.

      You also need to know enough to understand your software and the business and limitations well enough to software to make managerial decisions. You also should understand enough about product sourcing to make business decisions. If you don’t know everything, you need to have trusted employees you can rely on for their recommendation.

      Unfortunately your new best friend Laura is not a trustworthy employee. She’s said some crazy outright lies* in an effort to get in your good graces and push Miranda out and take Miranda’s job title. I can’t tell if Miranda is a good, trusted employee or not, but if she did good work for you and you relied and trusted her before Laura poisoned you against her, then she’s probably okay and your trust of Laura is the problem.

      Laura’s outright lies = if Miranda cared about the company she’d move to be closer to the warehouse and office and you’d have to be abysmal at your job to cause problems when you’re not there in person and Miranda was making things unsafe for Laura.

      But you want your small business to be a place where you can pay people for camaraderie and friendship and to do you personal favors to help you manage your life by all means keep Laura and kindly let Miranda go with lots of warning and a nice severance. I predict your business will fall apart, though, and you’ll likely find out that Laura isn’t the kind of friend who sticks around after you stop paying her.

      1. Aerin*

        The bit about product sourcing made my jaw drop. OP, you may own this store, but you’re sure as hell not the one running it.

          1. Fred*

            I scrolled back to the top TWICE to verify OP was the business owner. All I could do was shake my head as I read.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Yeah. Really.

          Procuring product is a whole huge topic. OP, you should be having regular meetings on what is being bought and from whom. This involves writing budgets and having a strategy/overall plan. This plan can be divided into seasons or quarters which ever works best for your operations.
          Contact information should be readily available and accessible.
          You should be checking sales against inventory and against outstanding orders.
          Your employees should be giving you regular reports.
          This is a major expense that can make or break your business.

          1. Amaranth*

            Especially now when so many supply chains have stalled. Some prices rose, some items are scarce or have quality issues, and some companies might be cutting prices to stay in business and gain a new customer.
            Its easy to cast Laura as the main chaos agent here, but even if Miranda is terrible or stealing money, LW wouldn’t have a clue and can’t take Laura’s word for it.

      2. Joielle*

        “you’ll likely find out that Laura isn’t the kind of friend who sticks around after you stop paying her.”

        YEP, this is such a good point. Right now, Laura is sucking up to her boss. She may or may not be an actual friend to you if you fire Miranda and things go south, but do you really want to find out?? If you get to that point and she’s not an actual friend, you will have a BIG problem on your hands.

        1. Worldwalker*

          It’s highly unlikely that she’d remain any sort of friend. The fact that she started doing this indicates she’s a “friend” because there’s something in it for her. As soon as there isn’t, the friendship will end.

          1. Raida*

            Or, she’s a good friend but also a selfish person with a high opinion of herself, that likes to have people she gets along with at work.
            In the context of becoming an employee for her friend, this is making her into a sh*tty friend where once, or in specific circumstances still, she is quite a good friend.

            Either way, shouldn’t be employed by OP

      3. Archaeopteryx*

        Another good point – if you don’t know the limitations of your software, etc, you don’t know if Miranda is right to say no to these things. I did some theatrical lighting work in college, and had a(n already pretty loopy) director get mad at me for essentially saying, “Well, we can’t do X because our circuits can’t handle it, but we could try something like Y to achieve the same effect.” She tried to report me for… backsassing? naysaying? trying to prevent an electrical fire? I don’t even know.

        Saying no to a proposal can be the best business decision someone can make.

    11. Dragon_dreamer*

      I had to re-read multiple times because I kept think Laura was the remote employee being a problem!

    12. President Porpoise*

      Look OP, if you want someone to tell you what to do and you don’t want to be making these decisions, you need to hire a manager and get the heck out of your business’s day to day operations. That or sell your business.

    13. TiredMama*

      Yes, this line, “I feel like they keep putting me in the middle and that’s really unprofessional,” leapt off the screen and slapped me in the face.

      1. Splendid Colors*

        I always wished I could be in a sorority, but I sure as heck didn’t try to turn my small business into one.

    17. Effective Immediately*

      This one *really* got me, and I think speaks to the fundamental root issue here:

      “I left a lot of toxic jobs because I wanted my own business and camaraderie. The energy is so bad now. I just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly.”

      1) You don’t start businesses for camaraderie, that’s what like, book clubs are for. And you certainly don’t start a business in order to outsource responsibility for your personal life, what in the???
      2) OP seems to not have a good sense of their own business, and that very much feels relevant in light of the above sentence.
      3) ‘I just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly’ might as well be a giant, flashing neon sign that says, ‘I am not equipped to be in charge of things’

      OP *is* the person who needs to be deciding what to do, and delegating work to others! There is a very distinct sense of, ‘I don’t want to run my business, I just want to have my name on it while I hang out with my friends’. That is…not good, and I think OP could really benefit from some management coaching and leadership development in general.

      Not to mention, OP’s desire to follow not lead opens them up to bad actors (like Laura) who are perfectly willing to exploit their naivete and desire to farm out responsibility for their lives. Weak leaders are a feeding frenzy for grifters, flatterers and the cravenly ambitious and this letter is exhibit A.

      Honestly, this might be one of the most frustrating and obtuse letters I’ve ever read here. It is completely wild to me that someone could write all this out and not think, ‘huh, maybe I’m wrong here’. Not to be petty, but I think OP deserves Miranda’s ire and more than deserves her resignation.

    1. Fran Fine*

      Same. Laura is a nightmare shitstirrer from everything OP’s written here, she hired her shitstirring mini-mes as backup in the warehouse to further her agenda, and OP doesn’t see that she’s being played. Miranda would be better off going to work in a less toxic environment and let these people destroy each other (because they will eventually – people like this inevitably turn on one another).

      1. Wry*

        No kidding. It’s so blatantly obvious even from the LW’s hugely biased pro-Laura perspective that Laura is the problem here….imagine how much more obvious it would be if we heard Miranda’s side of the story.

          3. allathian*

            Yeah. This is one of those posts where the LW is so completely in the wrong that it’s not even funny.

            LW, if you want to save your business, take Laura up on her ultimatum and tell her to go. Let this be a lesson to you, don’t mix friends and business. If you fire Laura, you’re going to lose her friendship and that’s going to be tough, given the way she supported you when you had a difficult year. But unless you fire Laura and her cronies and give Miranda her old job back, she’s very probably going to leave within a short time and then your business will be down the tubes. I bet she’s the one who kept it afloat during your difficult year, even if she’s a bit conservative when it comes to implementing new systems. Miranda deserves a lot better than you’re giving her.

        2. Tiny Soprano*

          Laura has reeeeeeeeally manipulated the OP. The fact that OP is in so deep and it’s so clear from the outside is a sign of how successful Laura’s manipulation has been. I don’t think this is at a point where it’s reparable with Miranda, but please OP get rid of Laura. Block her everywhere. She’s a danger to your business and she is not your friend.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Seriously. Woman, run like your heels are on fire and your hem is catching.

      2. Amaranth*

        I love your user name. So many dramatic scenes (in life and literature) would be totally avoided if there were more adulting by adults.

    3. Eldritch Office Worker*

      That was my thought the whole time. Yeah, fire Miranda, let her collect unemployment and set her free from this mess.

      But don’t do that, Miranda deserves her job and you botched this whole situation.

    4. Clorinda*

      If Miranda leaves, the business will be bankrupt within six months, and in six months and one day, Laura will ghost OP.

      1. Ali G*

        Yeah, Laura will run that place into the ground and OP will write in wondering how it all went wrong…

        1. TiredMama*

          And as she does, Laura will keep putting it back on Miranda. One day the OP will realize Miranda hasn’t been there for a year and will ask, how is it still Miranda’s fault? And Laura will pull the trigger on her exit plan.

          1. usually anon*

            Had this happen to me after I left a toxic job (after screaming into the owners face that she should be deported back to Canada for tax evasion, fraud and all manner of illegalities, business and private).
            The business mess was somehow my mess, to any employees who stayed on as the owner unraveled.
            The fun part was that I was still able to claim unemployment because she physically threatened me, and I was able to put her out of business by telling her extremely high end customers (think red carpet evening wear designers) how much she cheated them over the years.

      3. Ilovemess*

        Yep. Tbh, Laura has gotten so much out of this it wouldn’t surprise if she ghosted sooner than that.

        Or Laura could use the fact that she did personal favors for the OP against them one day. OP crossed some important employer/employee boundaries, and I’m sure Laura is keenly aware of that.

      4. LTR/FTP*

        I was once the Miranda at a job. And the Laura successfully convinced the boss to get rid of me — it was literally an “it’s her or me” ultimatum (the boss admitted this in my exit interview) and he chose Laura.

        Well, the joke’s on him, because a year later Laura left to start her own company, taking a number of valuable employees and clients with her.

      3. Yep, me again*

        I kinda want Laura to write in and go into ‘repair mode’ and demand a retraction from AAM. Said letter would probably include a litany of offenses that had nothing to do with the job performance of Miranda but a lot of adjectives like ‘useless, worthless, awful…” with nothing of substance.

        That’s a time to break out the popcorn and get a soda….it’s showtime!

        (Oh, and I want Miranda to resign like yesterday! OP doesn’t deserve good employees when they’ve been under her nose this whole time and she can’t even pick them out from the toxic one. )

    6. Guin*

      I’d hire Miranda in a heartbeat. She has single-handedly run the OP’s business for four years with no management oversight or direction.

      1. CLC*

        Literally what I was thinking- can’t imagine Miranda’s been paid fairly over the past 4 years either….

    7. Merci Dee*

      I’m surprised that Miranda hasn’t already left, with her boss shitting all over her the way this OP has. I would have had very little patience for the back-biting and back-stabbing that Laura seemed to be doing, even less patience with the boss telling me that I’m unprofessional for asking her to sort out problems with the team mate that’s responsible for all the back-biting and back-stabbing, and then would’ve been right out the door as soon as I was demoted so that the back-biting/back-stabbing team mate could step into my job . . . and then have to ask me what to do because she has no idea about what my work entails even though she’s apparently been gunning for my job the whole time. Yep. I’d walk straight out the door and let the whole dumpster catch fire behind me.

      2. MsClaw*

        I would be surprised as well if Miranda isn’t already making other plans. I would. She’s basically been single-handedly running OP’s business for years. Then someone comes along, becomes best buds with the boss, is a total nightmare to work with, and says they ‘don’t feel safe’ when you point out that your boss is showing an *insane amount of favoritism????

        OP, when I see things like this: ‘ I’m ashamed to admit I don’t know if Miranda is right or not and I don’t know what is a mistake and what isn’t or about our software and the business and limitations.’ I wonder how you think you are running anything. You need to figure this stuff out because once Miranda leaves, Laura is going to be incompetent to take over for her and so are you, nor can you explain to anyone else you might hire what Miranda was doing. You’ve put yourself in the situation of having a single point of failure. And now you are inexplicably pushing on that single point in the hope it collapses. I don’t know what you think you’re going to do with Miranda leaves and takes all her institutional knowledge with her.

        1. Artemesia*

          ‘I don’t feel safe’ is one of those buzz phrases that grinds thing to a halt when usually the person saying it is a manipulator. (now there are people who are potentially violent who make others unsafe and this can be a legitimate thing to charge but not for someone who is working remotely and has no personal interaction with the person saying it. It is designed to be PC and a legal trigger and it is a favorite of terrible employees who want to hobble management or of sociopaths.

          2. MsClaw*

            +1

            I actually had an employee try to pull something similar with me once. I talked with both parties separately and went back to the complainant and basically said ‘disagreeing with you is not attacking you.’ The only thing they were in danger of was not getting their way; there was no chance of physical or economic harm.

          3. Luke G*

            Yup. “Safe” is a big-deal trigger word you can’t ignore, but “feel” is a squishy word that you can’t ever disprove.

          4. ampersand*

            Yep, giant red flag. My ex used to say this to abruptly end conversations he didn’t want to have, or when things weren’t going his way. Now when I hear it in a context like this where there’s no actual danger, alarm bells go off in my head.

          5. Archaeopteryx*

            Yeah as someone who has used that phrasing regarding someone who was actually threatening me (and was not taken seriously), I’m pretty offended that Laura would use it to mean “Miranda is complaining about me.” What an ass.

        2. Health Insurance Nerd*

          The thing that jumped out at me was that the LW TOLD Laura what Miranda said about the favoritism! This is a HUGE breach of confidence, and I don’t blame Miranda one little bit for how she feels. To be treated this way after basically running this person’s business for four years is such a kick in the pants.

          Run, Miranda, run!!!

        3. MsM*

          I’m certainly wondering how OP plans to hire a replacement for Miranda with no job description.

    8. Heidi*

      I was wondering if asking for an updated job description had something to do with that. Polishing up a resume and such. Or it could just be trying to define boundaries between what she absolutely has to do and what she doesn’t have to do as Laura increasingly takes over operations. Weird that the OP’s response was that Miranda should know what her job is. The owner should be the one who decides what everyone’s job is.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Super weird. You just demoted her, that’s a change! You expect her to just guess at which details have changed?

        1. generic_username*

          Right?1 Sounds like she just gave her title away and didn’t think anything of it…? I’d be wanting to know what changed in my role with my new (demoted) title too! At the very least, I’d be wondering how Laura’s new role intersects with mine so I could stop stepping on her toes

        2. Luke G*

          I don’t think OP expects Miranda to kjnow “which details have changed” because I don’t think OP expects Miranda to change anything- just keep doing all the work she’s been doing at a lower title and (presumably) lower pay. It’s right in the letter- “Laura did such a great job helping me manage my life in the last year that it just seemed natural for her to be in charge.”

          OP isn’t giving any work-related reason to promote Laura, just the general friendship and favors and “life management” she did. OP is still expecting Miranda to be responsive at all hours and train Laura- just like she was doing when she still held the higher title.

          1. Working Hypothesis*

            Mostly what I see here is that OP is stark staring TERRIFIED of having to do anything for themself. They can’t run their bookstore because they’re too afraid of it to learn how to do anything, so they hire Miranda and dump the whole load on her without even knowing what Miranda is doing or how to evaluate it. But that’s not enough… not only can’t OP run their own business, they can’t run their own life, either. So they hire Laura as “warehouse manager” by official title, but more accurately as “OP’s life manager,” whose job it is to run OP’s life for them. Completely.

            Anyone who can’t run their own life is not a recognizable adult. They shouldn’t be allowed to function without a formal guardian — the legal kind, for which “a random employee whom I begged until they took over my whole life for me” doesn’t qualify.

            1. TyphoidMary*

              I know we’re all very frustrated with OP’s lack of agency, but I’m not sure jumping straight to conservatorship is an appropriate response (I certainly know it sent a chill down my spine).

          2. Koalafied*

            Another wack thing about this (boy, there’s so many) is that Laura and Miranda seemed to have completely different spheres of responsibility, but somehow Laura’s promotion involved being given Miranda’s title and being put “in charge.” Was Laura promoted out of the warehouse to something like Chief of Staff, and if so, was her warehouse manager role backfilled? Or is Laura still primarily the warehouse manager, but with an executive title and somehow now having management authority over Miranda, who was doing a completely different kind of work than Laura?

          3. MissBaudelaire*

            This was what I thought. She wanted to reward Laura for all the favors and so she snatched Miranda’s title, handed it over, but wasn’t going to hand over any of the actual yucky work. And she wasn’t going to define Miranda’s new job, because that’s also yucky work OP doesn’t like doing.

            So Miranda lost her title, but had all her old duties, and possibly some new ones here? Associated with the new title? So it was more work for no title and maybe less pay? And she had to hand hold Laura because she didn’t actually know what to do? And OP expected her to be available all the time?

            Miranda, darling, if you can read this, RUN don’t walk to a new job.

        3. MyAlterEgoIsTaller*

          Yeah this jumped out at me as the most super weird part of this letter. The OP demoted Miranda, but then thinks she’s just supposed to know what her job duties are? No wonder she’s drawings some new lines about answering emails nights and weekends.

          Sheesh. The OP’s ideas are so skewed and unreasonable that it makes me wonder if the letter is written by the real boss, or if maybe it’s written by Miranda, posing as her boss, in order to get the kind of feedback this is getting. If it’s for real: fire Laura and all of her friends immediately.

          1. L*

            Yeah expects her to “just know” then gets mad when it doesn’t align to what’s in OP’s mind

        4. Florp*

          Unless OP took her title away but expects her to keep doing what she’s always done while giving Laura the credit, which is a special kind of crappy.

      2. TiredMama*

        I don’t think it is weird, I think it is straight up laziness. Miranda was smart to ask for a job description.

    9. Puggles*

      It sounds like Laura is pushing Miranda out so she can get another friend of hers in the position.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        By the time Laura is done, the business will be hers and the OP will be pushed out.

        2. Tiny Soprano*

          EXACTLY. As soon as she’s pushed Miranda out she’s likely to turn around and start doing the same to OP.

    10. Kat Malfoy*

      I would not be surprised if Miranda is already looking for a way out after that nonsense demotion. There is literally nothing about this situation that would demand her loyalty or continued devotion to this job. OP honestly has no business being a manager.

      1. Green Beans*

        Employees who stop responding to after-hours emails are usually in the process of emotionally detaching from the job, which is usually followed pretty quickly by a new job.

        And it’s a good time for an experienced remote employer in the retail business to be looking, I imagine.

        1. Nanani*

          That or the demotion was a wake-up call to stop giving free hours to OPs business that are not being compensated.

        2. LTL*

          Tbf sometimes people just start setting healthy boundaries because it increases their quality of life and not because they’re looking for an out. Sometimes setting boundaries is navigating what works best in a (work) relationship so that you can stay.

          This isn’t to say that Miranda’s not likely to be job hunting, but I don’t feel that creating some boundaries around your work life should be a flag that someone is looking to leave. It’ll make it even harder for employees to honor their boundaries.

          1. Amaranth*

            I’d be looking if I were Miranda because if the owner is taking Laura’s word for everything and Laura wants my job, the writing is pretty much on the wall. I’d frankly be worried that Laura might next accuse me of fiscal impropriety in an effort to push me out the door.

    11. Run mad; don't faint*

      Yep. My jaw kept dropping lower and lower as I read this. I wonder how long this business will be able to stay afloat if this is how it’s being managed.

  3. Murphy*

    I’m really amazed that OP has no opinion on who is right or what’s really going on. It sounds like they’re really hands off and not very knowledgeable about the day to day of the business.

    1. Mary Richards*

      Right? How can you effectively run a small business and be so hands-off on everything? I’m not saying you have to know all the nitty-gritty technical details of, say, the website code, but some of this seems like pretty basic stuff.

      1. Anon for this*

        Very much this! LW,you should be at least familiar enough with what your employees are doing to be able to confirm that they’re actually making mistakes.

        Now, one caveat: it’s POSSIBLE, though not probable, that when Laura says “mistake” what she means is that, since your systems have been in place for years, industry best practices have evolved to the point that the way your business (and by extension, Miranda) handles some part of the process is causing unneeded work for Laura, and that Laura is aware of this, and Miranda is resisting changing the processes for… reasons. You might want to at least give this possibility a cursory glance, in the name of ruling out that this is not the case (also because as the business manager, this is something you should be aware of anyway, it helps you have the knowledge needed to prevent this exact situation from happening).

        But it’s much, much more likely that Laura is leaning on her personal connection with you to make Miranda look bad and try to drive Miranda out for her own personal gain. Your ignorance is forcing you to take one employee’s word for it, and since you like Laura because she’s done you favors, you’re taking Laura’s word over Miranda’s. Employees shouldn’t be obligated to work outside of their contract, or do material favors outside of work for their boss, to get promoted or avoid demotion.

        1. Luke G*

          Let’s go full benefit-of-the-doubt here and say that Miranda has been doing a technical role that OP truly doesn’t need to know all the details of. Laura comes in and says Miranda is doing things the wrong/old way, Miranda says that the exciting new things Laura wants to do wouldn’t work well for the business. OP isn’t familiar enough with the technical details to be sure.

          That’s a quandary a pretty reasonable boss could find themselves in- but a functional boss sorts it out by digging in, figuring out the details, and establishing where the balance falls between Miranda needing to modernize and Laura needing to work within the limitations of the existing system. Not just… wash their hands of figuring out the right answer and assuming that the person who does them the most personal favors is right.

          1. Amaranth*

            Laura does shipping and inventory control, which is apparently a new in-house function. I used to manage a software company and learned that most shipping programs are terrible and interface poorly with IC, but that just meant more data entry rather than changing my entire MRP program. I can’t imagine how IC was being done previously — by OP? But then they’d know their vendors, right?

    2. ThatGirl*

      I know there are well-run small businesses out there, because my FIL owns one, and he knows everything that happens. I am baffled by the idea that it’s **your** business and yet you’re somehow very hands-off about both day to day operations and the big picture. If you don’t know what’s right or wrong, how can anyone else?

      1. Ace in the Hole*

        At a large business, it’s critical to have redundancy… no one should be the only person who knows how to do X, in case they suddenly quit/die/retire/etc. So you always have at least two of basically every position, or at least have overlap between multiple positions so all duties are done by at least two people.

        At a small business, the owner IS the redundancy. They need to be prepared to (at least temporarily) take over any position in the company. You can’t afford to have two warehouse managers… so the owner needs to know how to step in to fill that role. You can’t afford multiple software specialists… so the owner needs to know what the job involves. You can’t afford more than one accountant… so the owner needs to at least know enough to be able to hire a temporary contractor/consultant to tide the business over until a new one can be hired.

        Even assuming everyone in this story has good, honest intentions… What will happen to LW’s business if Laura has an accident and can’t work anymore? Or Miranda? LW, do you even feel like you know enough at this point to tell if a replacement is qualified when you go to hire for the job or what services you’ll need to contract out short-term? If not, that’s a disaster waiting to happen!

        1. kiwidg*

          Yes, this! You have to know what’s going on, especially in a small business, because – as Alison has said many times – employees come and go on a regular basis. You have to be prepared for that.

          Like Ace in the Hole, I took the tack that both Laura and Miranda have/had good intentions vs. the nefarious, malicious jousting for power positions.

          It seems like a small thing, at the time, to accept the use of an employee’s car to run an errand when yours isn’t working. It solves a problem quickly and lets life get back to normal. But it’s not an employee’s job to make an employer’s personal life easier – it’s their job to make the business run smoothly (thus easier). Mixing the two the way OP has crossed the boundaries Alison preaches about.

          And the flag on that one was ” sometimes I’m waiting all evening for a response that I don’t get until the next morning.” My first thought was you should never be expecting an employee to respond after normal business hours, unless this is an emergency.

          I was very interested in Alison’s response on this one and I think she pretty much nailed it. There might have been some room for Laura not being intentionally manipulative just because I’ve seen the same sort of interactions between the new kid on the block who has all these great ideas but has no idea how things are done yet versus the established employee who has been around this block a few times and knows where the pot holes are. One won’t slow down enough to learn what the other has to give. And yes, sometimes the established employee can be resistant to change and the new employee doesn’t have the change management skills to bring them along.

          But that’s where the manager has work to do. And OP has definitely blurred those lines.

        2. Anja*

          I went to the dentist yesterday. I think when I got there it was only the receptionist, the hygienist, and the dentist left in the office. I was the last appointment of the day, and the receptionist had to go home early. So after the dentist was done with my check-up he took me up to the front, processed my insurance claim, took my credit card payment for uncovered items, and stapled my receipt to my printed out statement thing for me.

          Because it’s his practice and he’s the redundancy.

          1. Luke G*

            “He’s the redundancy” is such a quotable quote! Every truly good boss I’ve ever had has been willing and able to step in for basically any role beneath them, and at least keep the ship afloat in an emergency.

                1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

                  “my employees are coming to me with their workplace issues it’s just not professional.”
                  OP, That wird doesn’t mean what you think it means. Honestly, it’s pretty much the opposite of every action you’ve stated in this letter.

          2. Liz*

            Yeah, my physio had to let some of his admin staff go due to Covid, so now he’s his own receptionist. And he absolutely understands how to do that side of the job.

    3. Pony Puff*

      Clearly it has been Miranda running the business this whole time…good luck to OP when she leaves!

      1. Murphy*

        I know! Even before all this happened it would have been bad for OP to be so far out of the loop.

    4. all good*

      Yeah, I get the impression that OP wants the freedom and flexibility that comes with owning a small business, but doesn’t want the responsibility of owning a small business. You can’t have one without the other.

    6. Dark Macadamia*

      LW’s *ONLY* employee for four years was Miranda and they apparently had no idea what she was doing or whether she was doing it well! How??

      1. Splendid Colors*

        OP doesn’t sound like the kind of business owner who has a business plan or tracks business financials to make sure everything’s actually OK.

  4. Zach*

    It’s always nice when I have a visceral reaction to the question and then feel better when Ashley feels the same way I did reading it

    Thanks as always !

    1. North Wind*

      My head snapped back when I read that she thought it was unprofessional for her employees to “put her in the middle”, aka be a basic manager.

      One of the many reasons I love to do multiple, short-term projects as a freelancer is it feels easier to extricate myself from messed up situations and find a new one. (And one of the things that has surprised me as a freelancer is how very much the majority of people are pretty great to work with).

      2. Lacey*

        Seriously! It was all pretty bad, but that’s SUCH a wild thing to say when you’re the OWNER.

      3. RosyGlasses*

        Yeah that was one of my first lines to read (and similar reaction). I literally re-read the letter several times to see if I was missing something because the answer seemed so obvious.

    3. Firecat*

      Same here!

      OP some questions for you:

      1. How is the business doing? Are profits up or down post Laura? Be sure to get these numbers yourself. Have Miranda show you how to use the software and evaluate it independently.

      1. Badger*

        Those are really good questions. I’m also wondering if Laura has impacted relationships with long-standing customers or vendors in any way. It might be something to look into.

      1. Effective Immediately*

        Wait, what? I would not read that as pot-stirring at all. Saying you like someone personally, and think they’re a value-add but struggle with certain things is just…assessing someone’s work.

        What Laura is doing is on a whole other level, but I really don’t see anything wrong with the sentence you gave as evidence of pot-stirring.

      1. LisaNeedsBraces*

        As much as Laura being a shitstirrer is a problem, everyone saying the bad energy started with Laura is wrong.

        The bad energy started when OP started a business without wanting the responsibility of running the business. The fact that OP can’t tell who’s right or wrong, doesn’t know basic facts of her business, lets personal favors and relationships dictate promotions/demotions, and has expectations that people respond to her 24/7 is the source of the bad energy. She’s obviously struggling with something, hence the wanting someone to tell her how to run her life, but she needs to either step up or step down. Everything she’s doing is unfair to Miranda and even Laura (imagine knowing your job is dependent on whether your boss thinks you’ve been a good enough friend).

        Op, I hope this has been a wake up call for you. Maybe, you don’t want to be a business owner. Maybe you do, but you need more experience. Maybe you need to get your personal life in order. Maybe you just needed this kick in the pants to take responsibility. In any case, the bad energy starts with you and can be stopped by you.

    2. Firecat*

      And the energy is bad since Laura showed up.

      This is by design. Laura is a poster child pot stirrer who is manipulative and insidious.

      1. She makes broad claims with no evidence. “I feel unsafe around Miranda” When pressed she offered 0 safety concerns.

      2. She makes straw man arguments. If Miranda truly cares about your business, she would blah. Blah can be anything. The point is Blah was never a problem for you. Laura is trying to manipulate you into seeing blah as a problem.

      3. She created a clique of supporters. In this case literally hiring her friends. She then rallied that clique to say the same complaints. I bet dollars to donuts if you talk to one of Laura’s friends one on one and ask for a specific example, they wouldn’t be able to provide one.

      4. She made herself feel indispensable. She took advantage of the fact that you are hands off with your software to make you scared of losing her.

      5. She brown nosed you. She saw you were struggling and then acted like your friend. This was 100% for her own gain.

      6. She leveraged that shad talk, personal friendship I to perks at work. In this case a promotion.

      7. And once she had that power what did she do? This is the biggest indicator Laura is the problem. When good leaders are given power they don’t immediately try and squash the only dissenting opinion in the room. The only reason to do that is because you know they are right or a threat to you.

      Miranda is a threat to Laura, but not from a safety perspective. As someone with knowledge and experience she can easily show you when Laura is wrong. Hence the danger to Laura leeching off your business. I would not be surprised to find out Laura is either underperforming, pocketing profits, or some other combination of problems for your business.

      2. Green Beans*

        The “I feel unsafe” thing – oof, I’ve heard that a lot and when it’s unspecific and being used to ‘force’ others to behave a specific way or do a certain thing, it usually means, “this person can’t be emotionally manipulated.”

        (there are times where it’s legitimate, but in those cases, the person can provide specific details, and when they use it, it’s to explain their own behavior, not to change others, ie, “Honestly, I feel a little unsafe around Mary. She kind of gives me the creeps – maybe it’s the way she’s so overly interested in everything I say. Anyways, that’s why I’m not going to the party. But you guys have fun!)

        1. Here we go again*

          There are two times I’ve used unsafe at work:
          1. Was at a gas station where I was working alone past what I was scheduled. I quit because my life and safety is worth way more that $5.50/hr (this was 2005)
          2. I feel unsafe climbing the top rung of a ladder and standing on my top toes to change light bulbs. I won’t be doing that.
          Not because of someone who works off site was curt with me.

      3. Archaeopteryx*

        Yes to all of this. Laura has detected that you seem very easily led and don’t seem to have a strong sense of self/boundaries/plans and is going to town with that vulnerability.

      4. Paulina*

        The “I feel unsafe around Miranda” argument is even vaguer when combined with the complaint that Miranda, as a remote employee, isn’t actually around. If there was remote harassment then Laura would have been able to provide specifics. The main thing Laura likely feels isn’t safe due to Miranda is Laura’s powerplay and what else she’s up to.

  6. LDN Layabout*

    Own might be correct, but run is definitely not something OP’s been doing if they have so little idea of what’s going on and can’t tell whether ideas and actions are good or not.

    1. Canadian Valkyrie*

      This! Ok, I’m my defence, my field is potentially a lot different than OPs (they mention having a warehouse, which indicates to me that they sell products). But I work in a field where my boss could literally face fines if I was doing something wrong and claiming ignorance would not get her out of losing her license to practice and facing the same charges as me if I was ever accused of negligence or something because I’m not fully licensed yet so therefore she’s responsible for me. Like, it’s why being a boss is hard because it’s a lot of work and you can’t just do your own job and be done with it, you also have to know what others are doing.

      1. Canadian Valkyrie*

        It would be in OPs best interests to learn because of things like that. If there are compliance issues that she doesn’t know about, then regardless of what happens with staff, it’ll help her. Like what if she fires Laura or if Miranda quits, OP will have to onboard a new staff member with no idea what that person needs to be doing. So just practically speaking, it would be good to get clear on how the software works, how the supply chain works, etc and have everything (processes, etc) documented.

        1. Splendid Colors*

          I am 100% sure that OP has no idea what OSHA regulations apply to her warehouse. I would be utterly unsurprised if she didn’t even know whether or not her local public health department had COVID safety protocols, or whether or not the employee labor laws/rights posters required by law are posted onsite.

  7. Zephy*

    LW, what do you actually DO all day, since you apparently don’t know anything about your business and how it runs?

    1. Fran Fine*

      Right. I’m so confused about this and totally agree with you that Alison’s take is spot-on accurate.

    3. AVP*

      I’m actually wondering if OP has a different ft job and this is a side business that took off unexpectedly?

      1. Liz T*

        Thank you!

        We so very, very do not want this wonderful comment section becoming like that subreddit…

    5. Anomalous*

      Please be kind to the letter writer. She came here for advice, and we commenters should not be mean.

      1. Tiny Soprano*

        Agreed.
        It’s not as if the OP is the first small business owner to not be a great business owner. Plenty of small businesses are run less than ideally. This was just a vulnerability that Laura saw and seized on to manipulate her, and this manipulation sounds like it’s built up slowly over a long period of time. It’s very easy for us to see from the outside at the end that Laura has OP wound around her finger and her business practices left her more open to it, but it probably wasn’t that easy to spot on the ground at the time.

        It’s going to be a rough lesson that better business practices are the best way to avoid future Lauras. It’s going to feel really bad to find out that Miranda’s actually been treated abysmally and that she’s responsible for some of that. And that’s on top of the fact that someone she thought was a friend has been manipulating her all along! How do we think jumping down her throat is going to help her? I’ve been very disappointed with this comment section today.

    6. Middle School Teacher*

      “I want to run my business but I just want someone to tell me what to do.”

      There is no overlap in this scenario.

      1. Splendid Colors*

        If you give OP a very charitable reading of this, that she feels like she doesn’t know enough to make good decisions by herself, she could get a business mentor who is NOT an employee and NOT in a position to benefit from the advice they’re giving. There are plenty of organizations funded by the Small Business Administration that do business mentoring, and various “women in business” organizations. OP could get free mentoring and support to learn the software, etc. Right now it’s easy to get remote courses for free so you aren’t limited to whatever’s within a reasonable drive, too.

    8. Sasha*

      I can see a scenario where there is a bricks and mortar shop that OP runs, and an online offshoot that she recognises is way outside her competency, so she hired Miranda to manage it for her. And maybe Miranda’s role has grown over the years.

      I can’t quite see where three warehouse staff would fit into that business model, or why OP now had no idea who her suppliers are.

      But recognising you can’t do something essential to the business yourself, and therefore hiring somebody to do it for you, is not necessarily a bad business decision. Lots of people outsource HR, payroll, graphic design etc, just as examples. Most small business owners aren’t going to be able to appraise the results like people in the field could.

  8. I'm A Little Teapot*

    OP, you can’t run a successful business by popularity contest. Nor can you run a successful business by having employees manage your personal life.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I have watched this play out in a small business. The owner had the business as a hobby and handed the reins to a friend. The friend said they needed a six figure salary, and all their family should be hired. Done! Two low-paid employees that manage to keep the basics running. The business has never turned a profit, so the owner dumps more money into it every year.
      So there really isn’t a business. It’s just the owner handing outrageous salaries to another family. The owner is literally giving money to people to put on a show so he can say he owns a business.

      1. kgb*

        I think that’s fairly common, actually, especially when the business owner has either family money or a spouse with enough income that the “business expenses” don’t actually affect their household finances.

        1. AndersonDarling*

          Haha! You hit it! In this case it is the spouse that is making all the big money, and then she gives it to her husband to funnel it into his business so he has something to do.

          1. Rebecca1*

            Depending on how much space she wants from her husband, this could be a very reasonable expenditure for her.

            1. Splendid Colors*

              I suspect this is why my grandmother started a furniture store while my mom was growing up. However, when her husband died young, I think she managed to be profitable (as well as inheriting money from his business–he had owned the local gravel quarry).

              1. Talia*

                There’s a reason that “rich man’s young trophy wife opens a dress shop” is a known cliché.

                1. Sasha*

                  Ha! It is drug dealers’ girlfriends around here, and their hair salons also provide a handy front for money laundering.

  9. Not Petty, Just Tom*

    Oh honey no. You are wrong as the day is long here. You might as well sell the business to Laura at this rate because your judgment is so cloudy.

      1. Anon for this*

        It’s driving me mad because at my work, we do have a similar situation, but with one crucial difference, and that is that there is actually evidence that our Miranda is wrong. We’ve documented everything, and presented clear, concrete reasons why our Miranda is wrong, and in the face of a mountain of evidence that our Miranda is wrong, including several choice emails where our Miranda called our grandboss several interesting things… our Miranda is still here. And seeing this situation, where there is actually NO evidence that any of the things said about Miranda are actually true, and yet LW is taking Laura’s side? Noooooo. Do not just take one employee’s words. Demand EVIDENCE. Did LW even give Miranda a chance to refute what Laura is saying?

        1. Fran Fine*

          Exactly. If there was an actual, verifiable problem with Miranda and her work, trust and believe someone like Laura would have had the receipts to back up her claims. The fact that OP hasn’t been presented with anything of the sort to our knowledge (it wasn’t mentioned in the letter) leads me to believe Laura is a highly unreliable narrator here and wants to push Miranda out for personal reasons that have nothing to do with the latter’s actual work product.

          1. Myrin*

            The problem is that even if Laura actually procured evidence for her claims (which is possible; OP’s “I don’t know what is a mistake and what isn’t” kinda read to me like she’d looked at actual examples, but maybe she just spoke generally), OP isn’t in any position to evaluate those because she literally can’t tell what’s good and what’s bad. Basically, I don’t see any moving on from this in any direction unless OP hasn’t familiarised herself intimately with every and all processes pertaining to her business.

            1. Fran Fine*

              Yeah, OP needs an independent auditor who does understand the business to come in and sort this all out.

          2. JustaTech*

            Right! They work with physical objects, if there really is something wrong with inventory then there should either be too many books (obvious) or not enough books (also pretty obvious). It’s not like Laura could just shove inventory in her pocket and claim Miranda didn’t order enough.

    2. kgb*

      Why? Laura already runs the business, but with none of the risk involved in owning it. Perfect situation for her.

  10. The Original Stellaaaaa*

    I’d love to see the LW pick Laura; Miranda is the only one who knows the systems! How on earth would that work out?

    2. Sambal*

      If OP is really serious about getting her business in shape, they’d be working day in and day on learning the tools THEMSELF while they have Miranda around. Because Miranda is about to walk about at any second regardless of who OP “chooses” and the business is going to implode on itself.

    3. Elbe*

      I’m assuming that Miranda isn’t replying to the LW’s email because she’s busy applying for new jobs. If she’s competent enough to run this business smoothly for this long, she likely has other options.

      1. Anonymous Mouse*

        I would not be surprised if she’s even doing it on the clock. If Miranda feels like she’s being mistreated and threatened and wants out, why would she care? Either she’d be out of a sinking ship or out of an environment she wasn’t wanted in

    4. Jessica Fletcher*

      Miranda is the only one who knows the systems, *but the ones who don’t keep insisting she’s wrong about the system’s capabilities!!* Wild. Miranda is right. If Laura knows so much about the system, she shouldn’t need Miranda to teach her.

  12. awesome3*

    It’s very reasonable for an employee who got a demotion to want to know their new job description. Alison has given you some great advice here, I hope you are able to use it, best of luck.

    2. Yipsie*

      Yea, like OP… you changed her job. She wants to know what you changed it to. Why does that seem off base to you?

      1. Code Monkey, the SQL*

        That struck me too.

        If my boss says “your job changed”, absolutely my next question would be: “to what?”

        It’s a perfectly reasonable question and the answer should not be that Miranda ought to “just know”. Healthy work relationships are not maintained via telepathy.

        1. KHRose*

          This. LW gave Miranda a new job when she have Miranda’s job to Laura. LW needs to explicitly lay out what she wants Miranda to do in her new position.

          “She should know” sounds suspiciously like “she should just keep doing all the things she was doing” which would beg the question as to why sure was demoted if she’s got all the same responsibilities.

      2. Elbe*

        The LW seems very unclear on what running a business actually entails. As an owner, hiring the employees who report to you is one of the biggest roles. In order to do that well, you need to a) know what the job is that you’re hiring for and b) know how to tell if they’re doing it well.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I can’t get past that! How can the OP tell Miranda that she has a new job, and not tell her what the new job is!
      I’m getting the idea that the OP demoted Miranda in title, but still expected Miranda to do the exact same job. It’s like the motivation was to spite Miranda, but the OP doesn’t want to consequences of that.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Probably, yeah. OP wanted to take authority away from Miranda but not any actual duties. Sorry OP, she can’t read your mind. (Also wondering, did the demotion come with a pay cut? If so…you can’t expect pay her less for the same exact work.)

          1. MassMatt*

            For what, exactly? In most states, employment is at-will, someone can be fired or demoted at any time. The only protections are that the reason cannot be race, age, gender, etc.

            I agree that OP’s demotion of Miranda doesn’t seem to be justified (OP basically admits they don’t know enough about the business to know who is right or wrong) but I don’t see how a complaint to the state could arise.

            1. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

              If LW is expecting unpaid overtime, which includes “she should be answering emails after hours and on weekends,” Miranda might want to know whether the business can legally classify her as exempt from overtime rules.

            2. My Boss is Dumber than Yours*

              The only possibility I could see is if the reduction in duties made her no long net qualify for exempt status. In which case, she is really doing OP a service by not working extra hours until that is resolved. Because if she’s not exempt but not being paid overtime, that’s gonna be a problem.

            3. Sasha*

              Do you guys have constructive dismissal in at-will states?

              If she can demonstrate she has essentially bee forced to resign because it’s untenable to remain, presumably she’d be entitled to unemployment at the very least?

      2. Not So NewReader*

        OP, writing and updating job descriptions is pretty normal stuff. It’s not an outlandish request at all.

        So Miranda is pretty upset at this point. She doesn’t know what you expect of her and when she asked you basically blew her off and probably sounded like you thought that was a stupid question. It’s not a stupid question, honest.

        It’s up to the boss to assign work. That’d be you, OP.

        Now she has been demoted, does she report to Laura? Even if she doesn’t, Laura’s complaints about her will now escalate. Worse yet, some of the complaints may be legit- but you may not be able to tell the legit complaints from the pot-stirring complaints.

    4. Ama*

      Yeah, honestly even if Laura was as great as an employee as OP seems to think she is (and I agree with Alison that OP is letting Laura’s personal relationship with OP cloud her judgment of her professional acumen), OP should not recognize Laura’s achievements by taking a title away from a current employee unless Miranda did something explicitly wrong and not just “Laura doesn’t think Miranda’s very good at her job.” You don’t recognize a good employee by punishing someone else.

      1. Guacamole Bob*

        Yeah, this struck me as really weird. It’s a small business – give people whatever titles you want! I understand in my bureaucratic government agency there are complicated rules about changing job titles and promotions and how many people can be at different grades, but why did promoting Laura mean demoting Miranda?

        1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

          Exactly. It would have probably curtailed a lot of this toxic mess by giving Laura a different title and responsibilities that don’t overlap or demote Miranda. But it also stood out to me that “forever” to this OP means 4 years…lol. It could be that both Miranda and Laura should be fired…it’s not good that the OP doesn’t know her own operations for this business especially after only 4 years. It might be time for an external audit on inventory, IT infrastructure and bookkeeping.

          OP should really get her personal life in order on her own though. Don’t borrow employee’s cars or have them run your personal life. I want to have sympathy, but she is the agent of her own destruction on this mess and it sounds like it’s about to get A LOT worse before it gets any better — COVID notwithstanding.

          1. Anonymous Mouse*

            this is the thing – Miranda could indeed be rubbish at her job, but the only side of the story on display is the one presented, which is inadvertently demonstrating more how Laura is the problem

            1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

              Well, the OP did say, “She doesn’t want to try new things and is creating limits that I don’t think we need and saying no to new procedures and processes. I’m ashamed to admit I don’t know if Miranda is right or not and I don’t know what is a mistake and what isn’t or about our software and the business and limitations.” So Miranda doesn’t really sound like a peach here either… saying no to the owner of the business on new procedures and processes. With a growing business, and addition of new employees there SHOULD be new processes and procedures.

              1. Fran Fine*

                And you would be correct if Miranda was saying no to suggestions being given to her by a manager who knows all about the business, understands what Miranda does, and has a clear idea of where she wants her company to go. The OP admitted she knows nothing about what Miranda does, which is IT, administration, and bookkeeping work. If she’s saying no to the suggestions the ignorant OP is making (and I’m not using ignorant as a pejorative here – OP genuinely is ignorant about this aspect of the business by her own account), there’s probably a good reason for that that may be due to regulatory reasons given her areas of operation.

              2. RW*

                I had a different reaction when I read that. If Miranda is managing finances, technology, and business processes — which it sounds like she is — a lot of her job could consist of saying no to stuff for either legal or practical reasons. It’s weird that the owner would not understand enough about any of those things to know if Miranda SHOULD be saying no, and then get sad because she’s being a dream killer.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        “You don’t recognize a good employee by punishing someone else.”

        Unless, of course, you define “good employee” as one who bad mouths others with real or imagined accusations.

        OP, you just put Laura in charge of personnel. No, not formally. Everyone there knows they have to kiss-up to Laura because she can and will make or break their jobs for them.
        In extreme situations this can mean that if Laura tells them to load your product into her car, then that is what they will do. Because they don’t want Laura crying to you about their poor work.

    5. Bostonian*

      It’s bc OP wants her to still do the higher level work, PLUS be available nights and weekends, with that lower title (and possibly lower pay?)

    6. Marketing*

      I wish my toxic ex boss wrote in to Allison to complain about me. I feel seen by this billeted list!

  13. MissGirl*

    I appreciated the bulleted list Alison put together. All I could think through that jumble of a letter was that, “I don’t know who’s right–Miranda or Laura–but I know who’s wrong, the OP.”

    1. WellRed*

      Even if Laura has valid points, making statements such as “Miranda should move closer if she cared” are such howling red flags I can’t take her at face value on ANYTHING.

      1. Lizzy May*

        This. Laura is saying things that are so manipulative that her opinions can’t be trusted across the board. It’s very possible that Miranda is not good at the job (though she’s kept the business going for four years) but Laura is not someone who can assess that objectively.

        1. Anon for this*

          This, and it’s so annoying because there are just enough concrete reasons why someone in charge of ordering might, possibly, need to be on site to give the whole thing a veneer of legitimacy. Are any of the reasons applicable to this situation? Who knows, and the fact that LW just bought it without asking for proof is maddening. This would be a whole different kettle of fish if, at any time, Laura had shown LW a mountain of incorrect product.”She says she’s ordering widgets but look the supplier is clearly sending us gizmos and charging us for widgets and she has no idea because she isn’t here” would set the tone so differently than what we’ve been presented with and what the LW is acting upon.

          1. Luke G*

            Could Laura actually be correct about some things? Maybe, but (according to OP’s description) she’s presenting those concerns in such a twisted way that they’re not distinguishable from general malicious pot-stirring. We’ve seen other letters here that get responses like “It doesn’t matter whether John has an undiagnosed mental issue or is just a jerk, you just can’t do what he did in the workplace.” I think the same applies here- it doesn’t matter whether there’s an actual reason to consider shifting Miranda to more on-site work, you just can’t approach it in such a wheedling and manipulative manner.

            1. Akcipitrokulo*

              Possibly. But… lets say Miranda has a couple of things that could be done better. She has still kept her part of business going for years when owner of business does not have sufficient knowledge to do so.

              Could new person see legitimate places for improvement? Probably!

              Has Miranda been the disaster Laura us making out? No. Based on LW’s account.

              1. Luke G*

                100% agree! I was just comparing how this situation might look in a functional company compared to how it looks here…

            2. Anonymous Mouse*

              you can be as right as the day is long, but if you’re an asshole about it, you are automatically wrong

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          Yep, cue all the AAM advice about “you can not trust Laura’s judgement because x. Examine her other behavior knowing that.”

          OP, Laura’s playing you. She is not your friend.

      3. MissGirl*

        True, but I was too distracted by the OP to even consider the others. The whole I borrowed my employee’s car and had her run personal errands had me blinded to much else. Especially the fact she was mad it took the weekend to respond when the employee doesn’t work weekends.

        1. Kate R*

          Yes. There was so much yikes in this letter that I really appreciated Alison’s bulleted list addressing basically each part where my jaw dropped, but this part, about not responding on nights and weekends when she doesn’t work on nights and weekends. Miranda was going above and beyond by doing that. I get that it can be off-putting when an employee stops being as responsive or engaged as they have been in the past, but answering work questions in your off hours, unless specifically part of your job duties, is going above and beyond. And then OP demoted her. Why would she continue to be so accommodating when the result was a demotion?

      4. Wry*

        That and “you’d have to be abysmal at your job to cause problems when you aren’t there in person”….! I’m so glad Alison addressed this specifically because woah the LW is so out of touch with reality/so fully on the Laura train to think this is a “good point.” It’s not a good point! It doesn’t make any sense! A job is a job. If you’re bad at it, you’ll be bad at it remotely or in person. Being remote doesn’t make it “harder” to mess something up…! Why would it??

        1. YetAnotherAnalyst*

          It’s particularly wild when combined with the whole “if Miranda cared she’d move closer” thing. Like, which is it? Does not being in the office make it harder to cause trouble, or should she come the office just “for morale” multiple times a week?

          I would guess Miranda not coming into the office does make it harder for Laura to set her up, though.

          1. hbc*

            Yeah, my number one sign for not trusting someone’s reporting is those shifting, conflicting reports. “She didn’t ask me if she could use this piece of equipment!” “OMG, she’s always interrupting to ask if she can use equipment.” “She’s not getting work done fast enough and she says it’s because she doesn’t get access to the equipment, but she never asked and it was right there!”

            We probably *do* have an issue with [remote employee communication/equipment availability/whatever], but I can’t get to the bottom of it if you’re just looking to score points today rather than be a partner in a solution.

        2. Batgirl*

          “So fully on the Laura train”… Didn’t a famous con man say “If you don’t want to get conned, be aware of the things you want more than anything.” OP wants friends, and someone else to run her business for her. Not only does that make her a very wide mark to hit, but here’s someone who fits the bill perfectly and does all these little favours for her, gratis, out of the goodness of her heart… as long as you fire Miranda.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          “you’d have to be abysmal at your job to cause problems when you aren’t there in person”

          Laura is there in person and look at all the problems that have come up since Laura joined the company.

          Laura’s got her hand in your wallet, OP. And she is willing to step on anyone to get to your wallet.

          1. Sasha*

            I mean, the other way to look at this is that Laura must be able to start a fight in an empty room if she has all of these problems with somebody who isn’t even on site. But I bet it doesn’t work the other way around, does it?

      5. NotJane*

        Speaking of Miranda not being close to the warehouse, what about this gem:

        “She and I spoke about her coming into the office three times a week for morale…”

        OP seriously had a conversation with Miranda about her making a 6 hour round trip (!), 3 times a week (!!!), FOR MORALE?!??!!?

        I can’t even.

        2. Elbe*

          It’s even worse when the “morale” they’re trying to change is actually just Laura and Laura’s friends.

          It’s like “Please drive all this way multiple times per week, in a desperate attempt to make the people who are trying to get you fired like you more.”

          1. NotJane*

            Oh, but if Laura “doesn’t feel safe” around Miranda – when the latter is working remotely, 3 hours away – I doubt it would help Laura’s morale, either!

            /s

        3. Splendid Colors*

          Exactly! If Laura had a specific problem such as “Miranda orders stock but she has no idea whether or not the suppliers are shipping product that meets the specifications because she never sees it” that would make sense. “Our morale is suffering because we can’t hang out with our purchasing agent” doesn’t.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Evidently, there are no phones, computers, faxes or tin cans with strings in OP’s area.

            Take a pic of the problem and email it to Miranda, for pete’s sake. jeepers.
            If Laura is so helpful then why was she not able to figure out how to do that?

    2. Xenia*

      Alison did a wonderful job of clarifying the growing unease I was feeling all throughout that letter that Laura was trouble.

    3. SomehowIManage*

      OP has unseated the person who wrote fiction about a colleague as “the most wrong LW ever”— and even that person was genuinely regretful of her actions.

        1. Gerry Keay*

          Idk, the “leave a work request at a gravestone” boss still sticks out in my mind as the all time worst boss in the history of ever

          1. Working Hypothesis*

            That one wasn’t an LW, were they? The LW left it, but only because they were being forced on pain of firing. It was the boss that forced them to do it who was that awful.

  14. HLK_HLK45*

    Alison I doff my hat at you. PERFECT response!! The whole time I was reading the letter I kept thinking that Miranda has been unfairly targeted and maligned because the OP made the mistake of treating her subordinate as a pseudo family member and best friend. If OP fires Miranda, it’s just going to get worse since I don’t think Laura knows what she’s supposed to be doing (and is talking out of her nether regions).

    2. londonedit*

      Absolutely. I got more and more annoyed on Miranda’s behalf as I was reading the letter, but I was thinking I was probably wrong and Alison was going to give a much more measured response. But no, my instincts were correct!

      Looking at this from Miranda’s point of view, it’s just awful. Imagine having a job you’ve done remotely for several years, where you’re responsible for looking after a load of important business processes and procedures that your boss has absolutely no clue how to do. As far as you know, you’ve been doing a decent job, and even though your official hours are 9-5, you’re always available in case your boss needs you. Then what happens? Your boss hires some in-house staff, and all of a sudden your name is muck and you can’t do anything right. To the extent that your boss decides to demote you and install this new person, who wants everything done on her terms and in her way despite your protests that the software doesn’t work like that/that’s not how things have been done for the last three years/she doesn’t know the ins and outs of what she’s talking about. If I was in Miranda’s shoes, I’d absolutely stop being available for my boss outside of my official working hours – if the boss is going to demote me and start taking someone else’s word as gospel, then yeah, you can bet I won’t be responding to any emails at the weekend. Go and ask Laura if it’s that important, she seems to know everything.

      I also don’t know how Laura can possibly describe Miranda as ‘unsafe to work with’ when Miranda is three hours away. Laura sounds like a massive drama queen who will throw a tantrum every time she’s told no.

      1. Ama*

        Yeah if the OP is accurately representing Laura’s word choices with both the “unsafe” and the “should move closer if she cared” those are huge red flags that Laura’s concept of professionalism is either way off or she is being intentionally manipulative and choosing arguments/phrases she know will make the OP think poorly of Miranda.

        1. Robin Ellacott*

          And frankly if those are the best complaints she can come up with, Miranda is probably fine, because both of those are ridiculous.

          A reasonable person with concerns about their colleague has actual examples of their mistakes, explains the impact of the mistakes, tells you what they did to try to solve it, and does all this in an “I wanted to solve this but I couldn’t. Over to you, Boss!” way.

        2. alienor*

          Plus if Laura actually felt unsafe, why on earth would she want Miranda to move and start physically coming into the office/warehouse/store where she works? To me this says she’s just throwing stuff up against the wall to see what will get OP to fire Miranda, for whatever her personal reasons for wanting Miranda gone may be.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        “She said Miranda won’t show her how to do anything in the software and I don’t know how to use it, and she feels like Miranda is trying to sabotage her and the company.”

        It might be too late now, but the thing to do here is to check with Miranda to see if Laura even asked to be shown the software. I’d bet my last chocolate donut that she did not ask.
        OR the answer could have been that the software license only allowed the program on one computer, Laura’s computer was not covered under the license.

        So Laura leveraged that answer by skipping the details and creating a scenario where she looks like the victim. But she may actually be the agressor.

        1. Raida*

          Or hey, crazy idea, as the (in theory) manager of this whole show, OP could have arrange training sessions for the new staff to be onboarded.
          And then she’d know that time was specifically set aside for training in the software.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      Oh, I think Laura knows exactly what she is doing. She found a sucker that she can manipulate into handing over a fat salary for herself and her friends.

      1. NotJane*

        I’d wager a large sum of money that OP isn’t the first sucker Laura has manipulated and used for her own benefit.

    4. Mole-keter*

      Spot on! The minute I read the part about Laura helping to run errands and lending a car, etc, my first thought was she seemed to be love-bombing. And lo and behold, OP fell for it!

    5. ecnaseener*

      I would love a category label for these types of posts, the “I don’t think this is the answer you were expecting…” posts. Alison has such a great balance of gentle and firm.

    6. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      Yesssss. This is definitely one of the top 10 most satisfying responses on this site. I love that she addressed every single thing wrong with this, including the underlying assumptions that are clearly being made by OP. And the abdication of her responsibility as a business owner to actually manage her employees!!!

  15. Wendy City*

    Oh wow, this reminds me of why I don’t ever want to work for a small business. So, so many of my friends have been the Miranda in this situation, and the only way to resolve it was to leave. This dynamic (hands-off owner who refuses to manage, problems arise when an employee inevitably takes control–and advantage–of the situation) is frighteningly common in small businesses.

    Props to Alison for spelling out exactly why LW has mismanaged the conflict with Laura.

    1. Tangerina Warbleworth*

      Totally off-topic, but I’m curious: if your handle is from the book I think it is, could I express sympathy for your loss of Freddy Lounds?

    2. Raida*

      God yes, how many people, instead of getting a remote assistant like Miranda, instead opt for a family member or friend?
      And this person has no experience, is forceful with their ideas, want to make changes, ignores important tasks, don’t want to do the uninteresting stuff, aren’t organised enough to do filing, make up their own ways of doing things, don’t document, etc etc etc…
      I have spent hours at a mates’ small businesses physically rearranging their store rooms and adding big, bold, Arial labels to everything with a clear instruction and agreement “Nobody discusses where things are stored, everything is alphabetical.” Because the husband and wife “just don’t think the same way” and put things where it makes sense to them. O_o
      It is truly satisfying to visit and see all those big labels still in place, everything that little bit more functional, reports of less wasted time

  16. Charlotte Lucas*

    Laura sounds horrible & manipulative. I bet she already has a friend who she wants to do (what’s left of) Miranda’s job.

    Also, I worked for someone like Laura. It’s just a matter of time before she somehow goes after the OP.

    1. Jesshereforthecomments*

      This was my thought too… it’s only a matter of time before Laura tries to push OP out of their own business. Which may work since OP doesn’t even know what their business is or does anymore.

      And Miranda, if you somehow stumble upon this, get out! We’re all rooting for you.

      1. My Boss is Dumber than Yours*

        Oh, I bet Laura has no interest in pushing OP completely out of her business. I think she’s sure she has OP exactly where she wants her: clueless about her actual business operations and wholly beholden to Laura. Right now, OP has all the risks of owning a business and Laura has all the power. She’ll keep happily drawing her salary until there is no money left. No reason to ruin something like that by becoming a partner and fiduciary for the business.

    2. RW*

      Even before we got to the meat of the letter, when we were just at the point where Laura brought her own people into the warehouse, I was like “Ruh-roh.” Now she’s on a sustained campaign to get rid of the only person pushing back on her suggestions.

      Right now, the OP is facilitating Laura getting what she wants, so of course Laura is sucking up and playing into this idea that they’re best friends — the change will come when the OP becomes an obstacle to something Laura wants.

  17. idwtpaun*

    Wow. OP, this is going to be hard for you, but I hope you can really listen to Alison’s response. I was thinking all the same things she said as I was reading your letter. It was a stream of red flags, not from Miranda, but from you.

    “I wanted my own business”
    “I just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly.”

    OP, these two things are not compatible. Either you want to be the boss or you don’t. From your letter, you want the freedom of creating your own work environment, but you don’t actually want any of the responsibilities that you need to take on in order to make that happen, as a result, you’re now being manipulated by someone who got you to hire their friends and demote a long-standing employee. I’m sure everything can go smoothly if you just give Laura everything she wants. It’s not likely to be any good for you, your business or for any employees Laura takes a dislike to, but she’ll be happy I’m sure.

    And now I can’t get the image of Laura as Grima Wormtongue and the OP as Theoden from Lord of the Rings out of my head.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Yes, this. And I’m going to come down on the side of “you don’t” because you have not been running this business. I would suggest strongly rethinking your career decisions.

    2. Language Lover*

      I agree. The LW also said:I left a lot of toxic jobs because I wanted my own business and camaraderie.

      Unfortunately, the business they created is now toxic due to the inability to process job performance through a lens of skills and competence but rather through the lens of who the LW likes more.

      LW, I think Alison’s advice is great but owning a business is hard. And for a small business, you need to be more aware how it works. This is not only important for evaluating employees but it’s important to not be taken advantage of in other ways. How closely do you pay attention to inventory? The financial aspects?…etc.

        1. StressedButOkay*

          This. You’re not running a business to make friends, you’re running a business to make money and deliver a product.

      3. Gel Pen Destroyer*

        Also… when every job you’ve ever had is “toxic,” well, the common denominator there … is the OP. (I realize it is totally possible for people to have a string of bad luck with work environments, but when the shoe fits…)

        3. Butterfly Counter*

          Or, more likely, because the OP hasn’t seen a business functioning properly, she has nothing to model her own business after. She knows X doesn’t work, so she’s trying Y, but in reality, B is what she needs to do.

          People are most comfortable in situations they’re familiar with, so they tend to reproduce them even when they’re toxic because they aren’t aware or are too scared of the unknown correct way to do something.

          1. Ori*

            This. Also some industries are simply more dysfunctional than others, and I think a lot of us build our network in our first few jobs. If those are dysfunctional, our opportunities might be too.

        4. Starbuck*

          That didn’t really stand out to me on the first read, because I was assuming they’d only done retail so far and that can be a minefield of toxicity and bad management even if you’re a totally emotionally stable and mature person. But it doesn’t bode well either way for OP having learned good professional norms and management skills (clearly!)

        5. Avi*

          Yeah. I don’t want to be too hard on the LW, but part of me is honestly wondering if her definition of ‘toxic’ amounts to ‘didn’t want to be friends with me and expected me to actually do the parts of my job that I didn’t like’, given how the opposite of that seems to be what she expected to get out of running her own business.

      4. HarvestKaleSlaw*

        “I left a lot of toxic jobs” was where my eyebrows – which were already up there past my hairline – actually levitated clean off my head.

        Yeah, I’ll bet.

        1. Effective Immediately*

          Right?! The popcorn-loving Internet user in me is *dying* for OP to respond to Alison/comments in this thread.

    3. Ermintrude*

      Grima Wormtongue: PERFECT analogy.
      I’ve met/had housemates like this. They’re friendly and helpful until they’re not. They expect to push one around and take their crap, and then screw you over emotionally and/or financially, and the best way out is to be rid of them.
      Laura and co. will probably attempt to pull crap on you and the business, so be wary and ready for that.
      You survived with just Miranda before, you’ll make do again, hopefully.

    4. Liane*

      “And now I can’t get the image of Laura as Grima Wormtongue and the OP as Theoden from Lord of the Rings out of my head.”
      And Alison in full wizard regalia to speak some sense. Will OP be as fortunate as Theoden King and be able to shake off the spell with AAM’s aid and do the Right But Very Hard Things they need to do?
      Not sure…

        1. Heidi*

          The business would be Rohan or the Riddermark, wouldn’t it? And Miranda is Eowyn – who was played by….Miranda Otto!

      2. quill*

        Someone needs to make art of that scene but with Allison as gandalf. Just smacking the keyboard with a staff

    5. The Prettiest Curse*

      Work environments that are positive, efficient and free of toxicity and drama don’t just magically happen – they require work, and the tone has to come from the top. Unfortunately, OP just doesn’t want to take the responsibility or put in the work to make this kind of environment a reality.

      1. Batgirl*

        I’m scratching my head at why she took Miranda’s complaints of favourtism to Laura. What manager airs her employee’s complaints of her competency? What did she expect Laura to do about it? Book her a seminar on managerial skills? Agree to stop sucking up and confusing the OP? Of course Laura was going to manipulate it all away.

        1. Elbe*

          It’s especially perplexing because Miranda is spot on. The LW stated flat-out that she was demoting Miranda because Laura had “helped” her personally. Alison is right that that’s the definition of favoritism.

        2. Queen of the File*

          “Let me just prove that I’m impartial by immediately telling the person you think I’m too close to all about your complaint.”

      1. Luke G*

        But does she recommend submitting your resume via e-mail or Shadowfax?

        … I’ll see myself to the door now.

    7. Name Required*

      OP, I agree with this so strongly. I’ve worked for a few small business owners as hands off as you, and you really can’t eat your cake and eat it too if you want the business to be successful.

      If you are looking to run a lifestyle business to earn you an income you are comfortable with, you will need to be more hands-on in all aspects of the business, and remove your personal life from the mix. I think you would benefit from connecting with other business owners or participating in a mastermind for business owners who do the same work as you do, so that you have a place to connect personally and other folks to bounce issues off of when you feel stuck.

          1. Name Required*

            Yeah, and it sounds like she’ll be able to embezzle OP out of all of her revenue pretty soon, at this rate

      2. Batgirl*

        This is such practical advice. I’ve been waiting for someone to say something more actionable.. I honestly don’t know where I’d start if I’d drifted out as far away from the core of the business as OP has.

      3. Splendid Colors*

        There are good business owner meetups and bad ones. I went to a webinar last week by a survivor of bad ones that focused on “greed is good” and “look at the Lambo I bought by underpaying my staff and overcharging my customers”. Apparently that is the culture for Entrepreneur Twitter or LinkedIn or whatever.

        I have been fortunate to be in peer groups of other art/craft/makers and the local SBDC, PTAC, and other agencies that support small businesses. Some of these are targeted at disadvantaged entrepreneurs, and OP may not fit their criteria. But the SBA pays a LOT of groups to help small business owners and there should be something out there. With so much virtual stuff these days, you’re not always limited to “what’s within reasonable driving distance.”

    8. StressedButOkay*

      I was coming here to comment on those lines, as they really jumped out at me! You are the owner and manager of your own business – that means there isn’t someone who tells you what to do. Even before Laura was hired, it sounds like you were far too hands off. There’s a line between doing All the Things as Owner and Doing None of the Things that you have to find.

      Also, “help me run my life smoothly” – I’m sorry, I really am. But that is not the point of your employees. They are there to help you run your business smoothly but your life is a different matter. Even if it’s a personally run business, they aren’t generally your personal assistants.

      3. Ori*

        Eowyn. Doing all the work, not getting any recognition, likely to GTFO the second a better opportunity comes along.

    11. Aerin*

      There’s nothing wrong with being the kind of person who needs an outside perspective to tell them what to do and keep things running smoothly. I’m that kind of person! And because of that, I’ve worked best in jobs with *more* structure, not less. I’ve given some thought to freelancing, especially since I want to be able to travel more while I work, but I know I would be terrible at the business side of it, so I resist the temptation.

      “Has clear expectations and will keep you on task” is not necessarily the same as “toxic and overbearing,” though you might have to look a little harder for that kind of position. However, a “tell me what to do” job, even a healthy and supportive one, is never gonna be a “just let me vibe with my friends” job. The latter are pretty much limited to the independently wealthy (or grifters and leeches who can talk themselves into such a position).

      1. Splendid Colors*

        If you want to freelance with some support for the business side, I just went to a webinar by an artist/freelancer cooperative called Guilded earlier this week. Members get support with standardized contracts, actual advocacy by experienced people, and guaranteed payment via Guilded. They front the funds and go after the client to claim payment if a client doesn’t pay on time. It isn’t a great fit for my business, because I sell primarily finished goods, but they’re a cooperative for freelancers who bill for services on a 1099. They also provide accounting support and limited health benefits.

    12. NotJane*

      “It’s not likely to be any good for you, your business or for any employees Laura takes a dislike to, but she’ll be happy I’m sure.”

      Until she either gets bored or runs OP’s business into the ground (or both) and runs off to find a new mark to con.

    13. Carlie*

      The only descriptive word that kept coming into my head while reading the letter for Laura was “viper” oh, and I don’t know that I’ve ever used that term to refer to a person before. Even from the OP’s description, Laura seems to be really bad news. I would urge her to tread very, very carefully regarding taking any advice from Laura.

    15. Not So NewReader*

      It’s true, OP, you do have some odd pairings going on here.

      I have worked in groups with a strong sense of camaraderie. That sense came from working together well and successfully. It wasn’t because we were all friends.

      I can remember one woman I worked with early on. Let’s just say we were polar opposites. It was to the point that we could not take break together because we had ZERO in common to talk about. But, boy, this woman could work, wow. The boss said he could have the two of us or he would have to put on four people. We clicked so well as a team. Our camaraderie was solely based on our mutural respect for the other’s work ethic. Take the work away and there was nothing.
      Please reconsider what you call camaraderie.

    16. Knope Knope Knope*

      Yes it really struck me that someone can want to run their own business yet seemingly want to shirk all the responsibilities of decision making. This OP chose to make herself responsible for the livelihoods of her employees and is acting as if she owes them nothing and they owe her personal favors and friendships.

  18. SlimeKnight*

    Miranda may very well be bad at her job. Laura may be right. How can LW know when it sounds like she wants to wash her hands of the whole thing? LW is the owner of this business. As a manager I don’t know each of my direct reports’ jobs down to a technical level, but I do have the knowledge needed to judge performance and manage process flows. I

    1. Janie*

      Miranda’s good enough at her job that, without any oversight, competence, or management from the OP, the business grew enough to more than double their staff and open a warehouse.

      1. Elle*

        That was my exact thought! In three years with Miranda it seems to have gone quite well and expanded. It doesn’t seem possible that she’s bad if this is the end result.

        And if I got demoted, I for sure would want my responsibilities clarified in writing. I wish Miranda the best – perhaps she should start her own business!

        1. quill*

          The fact that the business still exists after four years says Miranda is at least functionally competent.

      2. Raida*

        Actually, I wonder about that – *did* the business grow enough that it made sense to hire three new staff and in-house warehousing?
        Or did Laura tell OP that she could do wonders with the warehousing, save OP money, and OP wouldn’t need to do a thing…?

        After all, OP doesn’t know how the processes work or the warehouse tasks or Miranda’s tasks – how’d she come to make this business decision?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Ultimatums are one of my boundaries. A subordinate issues an ultimatum like that and they just lost the argument, even if they were right.

      I do not deal with ultimatums because that is not how to manage people.

      Now that Laura has opened this tactic you will probably see it again any time you do not do what she wants.

      I hear this stuff and I instantly picture a 5 year old child whining that they want an ice cream when there is no ice cream in sight. I’d tell Laura that anything framed as an ultimatum is an automatic NO. Then I’d ask her, “Knowing this, would you like to reframe your question or let it stand as stated?”

  19. Renee Remains the Same*

    I won’t pile on. Clearly, the OP didn’t realize the toxic environment they were supporting. But, it seems moreso that they were ignorant rather than malicious. The great news about being unaware is that one can learn to become aware. And in the spirit of that, I hope everyone in this situation recovers. But, I also hope Miranda leaves. I’m not sure anyone’s self-esteem can take the battering she’s gotten and I hope she finds a soft, awesome place to land.

    1. North Wind*

      Love this comment. This letter got me so riled up but this is the right and helpful response.

    3. L.H. Puttgrass*

      Excellent points. But I don’t hope Miranda leaves—I hope OP takes Alison’s advice to heart, answers Laura’s ultimatum with “Best of luck in your future endeavors,” and gives Miranda a promotion, a raise, and a heartfelt apology.

      1. L.H. Puttgrass*

        (My dream scenario is that OP realizes they want to own the business but not really run it and offers to step and and give Miranda the position of General Manager with a fat salary and an equity stake, since it sounds like she’s been running the business anyway.)

      2. Renee Remains the Same*

        That would be awesome. But as someone who was put through the ringer in a similar fashion, I would rather Miranda go somewhere else where she’s appreciated, respected,, and able to work on restoring her wellness without the fog of past drama surrounding her.

    4. The Prettiest Curse*

      When the OP mentioned that they had been in toxic work environments before starting their own business, I did wonder if they were unconsciously replicating the dynamics of their past workplaces in their business. Sometimes people replicate negative behaviours (intentionally or not) purely because it’s familiar to them.

      1. onco fonco*

        I wondered this. Where would OP have learnt to run a business well if they had mostly worked in a bunch of dysfunctional ones?

      2. ecnaseener*

        Very true. Stuff like “it’s unprofessional to go to your boss with conflicts” could’ve easily been learned in a toxic environment.

    5. Bostonian*

      I would bet a fat five dollar that Miranda gets fired, more of Laura’s friends get hired, and we get an update from OP detailing how wrong we were about the whole situation.

        1. Jennifer Strange*

          Even that LW later realized they were in the wrong (after being fired…) and made strives to improve. I’m hopeful the OP will be the same.

            1. Forrest*

              There’s a later one where she says she left that job, did lots of therapy, has realised she’s not suited to being a manager and is so humiliated and horrified by her former self. Massive self-growth!

            2. Lance*

              Yeah, there was a second update sometime later after some therapy (if I’m remembering right) and admitting no desire to return to a management role after realizing just how much they didn’t do it well.

        2. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

          I’d strongly suggest OP read the original letter of that and the updates and take it as a warning because they’re, unintentionally or not, creating a very similar problem. When ‘friends’ get the cushy benefits there’s always someone outside the clique getting shat on.

    6. Cinderella Sparklepants*

      I agree with you there. OP seems more clueless than actively malicious. I hope they read the comments and realize they HAVE to take a more active role in the day-to-day of the business. They don’t know what do to here because they don’t know enough about the inventory/billing/whatever to know if Laura is making stuff up (seems likely), Miranda is making a ton of mistakes (possible, but less likely), or how the systems even work.
      I can see the OP in a front-of-house/customer service role who thought they’d just hire people to deal with the other parts. You can’t let someone else do all of the “business” parts of your business. I hope this is a wake-up call for them.

      1. L*

        I think Laura is RELYING on the fact OP has no idea how the business runs. She’s an opportunist and sees a ripe mark

      2. The Bimmer Guy*

        Right. I want to be generous to this letter writer, but they have all the obliviousness and perceived helplessness of the Duck Sex Club manager. And that’s not a flattering comparison.

    7. LegalSec*

      If I were anyone in Miranda’s life, I would be pointing her to AAM so she can brush up her resume, interviewing and salary negotiation skills and get the best possible outcome, and also to give LW exactly as much notice of her resignation and taking a new job as LW gave her when she decided to demote her. This reminds me of the “my boss decreased my salary and demoted me at 3pm on a Friday” letter about burning bridges with style

    8. Aerin*

      It’s been mentioned upthread that the “I should just start my own business, it will be so fun!” is SUCH a common thing. OP shouldn’t feel bad for falling into that trap. But now they need to correct it. That might mean making more of an effort to learn the ins and outs of the business and get themselves some management training, or it might mean selling and looking for a job more suited to their temperament. Not everyone has the specific skillset to be a boss, nothing wrong with that as long as you recognize it.

    9. Batgirl*

      If you’re smack bang in the middle of Covid hell and your wonderful new employee is just too “blitz spirit” to avoid helping you… I can see it feeling like the answer to a prayer. At least OP got the jitters enough to write in once Laura started screwing the thumbtacks. OPs instincts are screaming out in there somewhere. It was probably much easier to believe in her during the love bombing stage.

    10. Brooks Brothers Stan*

      > But, it seems moreso that they were ignorant rather than malicious.

      I call this “malicious ignorance.” At a certain point, it becomes necessary to acknowledge that a sufficient level of ignorance leads to a(n often unintentionally) malicious outcome. Being ignorant isn’t always a sufficient excuse.

      1. Raida*

        I call it “dangerous negligence” because maliciousness requires intent, but just not-giving-a-fck doesn’t.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      To me the OP sounds tired and sounds like they have given up caring about it all. Probably overwhelmed by so many moving parts.

      There are volunteers who will mentor small business owners, OP. SCORE is a nationwide network of people who offer this mentoring help. (score dot org)

    12. Jack Straw*

      Love this response and this line especially: “The great news about being unaware is that one can learn to become aware.”

  20. CatCat*

    OP is probably not going to need to fire Miranda because Miranda is probably going to quit as soon as she can find something else. Problem solved. For Miranda.

    1. Fran Fine*

      I would. Can you imagine working somewhere for years and then being demoted out of the blue because your manager decided to promote the person who acted as her personal assistant, even though that has nothing to do with the job?! The whole thing is gross.

      1. WellRed*

        I don’t even get how that works, even on paper. Did Laura start doing all Miranda’s tasks? We can’t ask Miranda because OP is keeping Miranda in the dark about her job description. Staff?

        1. onco fonco*

          Oh, not all of them. OP complains that Miranda stopped doing the bits that Laura doesn’t know how to do. When OP took Miranda’s job away from her and gave it to Laura.

      2. Bagpuss*

        Yes – I also don’t understand why a promotion for Laura had to result in a demotion for Miranda. Surely you could have given Laura a pay rise and/or different title without demoting Miranda.

        1. Ally McBeal*

          I feel like it’s so rare to see a perfect textbook case of a zero-sum conflict. I feel awful for Miranda.

      3. LizM*

        Yeah, this really stood out to me. Like, how did that conversation go? How did OP not think Miranda would take it personally. You’re talking about someone’s livelihood. Messing with that *is* personal.

    2. R*

      Yeah if Miranda is savvy enough to back away from being available after hours, shes savvy enough to update her resume and at the very least glance at the relevant job boards. If she hasn’t begun to actively job search, she’s just waiting for Laura or the OP to give her a reason why.

    3. Mental Lentil*

      Honestly, I am amazed that Miranda has stuck with it this long. I would have left long ago.

    4. RVA Cat*

      Hopefully Miranda is on her way out already. You know that whole guilt trip of “if you leave, the business will fail?” Well, it deserves to.

  21. Delta Delta*

    Ooh, OP doesn’t know their own business or processes or where their products are even sourced and hasn’t used the company’s software in years. Nothing about this is good and the problem pretty clearly isn’t Miranda.

    1. Delta Delta*

      And another thing – I don’t fully understand Laura’s alleged statement she feels unsafe. From my reading of this, Miranda works on the other side of the state from Laura (right?). What even is happening here?

      2. Lin*

        It could be that she picked up “unsafe” as a buzzword to lend power to her position. At least that’s my gut reaction.

        1. Pants*

          It was mine too. “Hostile work environment.” “Toxic.” “Bully.” “Unsafe.” These have all become buzzwords or trigger words. I think it does a disservice to those who are really affected by situations that are described with the phrases. From reading OP’s take, it sounds like Miranda has a far better case for any/all of these descriptions than Laura does.

      4. LTL*

        Yeah, I didn’t pick up on a lot of what Alison and the other commentators seemed to pick up on when first reading the letter. But when Laura said she was feeling “unsafe” something about that struck me. Given that nothing in the letter described Miranda doing something so extreme, it just felt like a manipulative move.

      5. Ilovemess*

        Laura is playing the OP, and saying she feels unsafe was meant to be the final, big issue manipulation to get Miranda out completely. It’s hard for an employer to ignore that, let alone one who’s also a friend.

        Hopefully OP wakes up in time to realize what’s going on and fix it.

      6. Gerry Keay*

        Feels a lot like DARVO — a wildly effective manipulation tactic. Stands for “Defend, argue, reverse victim and offender.” Laura is making this an unsafe environment for Miranda and is trying to flip the script so she’s seen as the victim (with success!)

        1. honoria*

          I always heard it as “Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender”, but your version works, too–variations on the same dysfunctional theme!

    3. Kramerica Industries*

      I would also bet that Miranda “being negative and not wanting to try new things” is actually her understanding the intricacies of the processes and why some things won’t work. New people can suggest all the fancy shiny ideas they want, but if they won’t work, then what’s the point? Did OP even bother to learn from Miranda on why things are done the way they are or is she just taking Laura’s word that “new” must mean “better”?

      1. Guacamole Bob*

        Or that “not wanting to try new things” is actually “not wanting to violate industry regulations, federal labor laws, insurance requirements, IRS rules, generally accepted accounting practices, software capabilities, and/or the laws of space and time.”

        Sure, it’s possible that Miranda is just inflexible, but it doesn’t strike me as the most likely answer given the rest of the letter.

      2. Elbe*

        I think it’s fairly common for new hires to come in and suggest a lot of changes to process that have actually already been ruled out for various reasons. They can come in and say “We should do XYZ!” without realizing that XYZ was tried two years ago and failed miserably, or XYZ isn’t possible on their systems, or XYZ is outside of regulations, etc.

        We can’t know for sure, but – based on the rest of the letter – I would guess that Laura’s suggestions aren’t actually good. People who are good at their jobs tend to not have to buddy up to their bosses outside of work, hire their friends, and try to get their rivals fired for BS reasons like “won’t relocate for a job”.

    4. MistOrMister*

      This is such an odd situation. I don’t understand how OP can flat out admit to basically having no idea how Miranda’s job is done, how to tell if she’s aorling accurately, etc but then also says how she’s such a problem employee. I guess it is slightly possi le that Miranda IS a huge problem and having Laura and the others has brought that to light but it seems highly unlikely. It really sounds like Miranda has been single handedly running the business for four years. But suddenly she is the cause of every problem in the entire world. Alrighty then! I hope Miranda leaves. Not to punish OP or leave the business in the lurch, but because as long as Laura is around she is likely going to be treated like crap. No one deserves that.

      1. Raida*

        Yeah, saying “i don’t know how to tell” and then accepting Miranda’s crappy without any evidence is just… pathetic.

  22. Starchy*

    Phew, what a hot mess. My best guess is Laura has someone in mind for Miranda’s position. It’s kind of ironic that the OP left toxic jobs only to end up creating one in their own business.

    1. Dark Macadamia*

      LW saying they started a business to avoid toxic jobs is like how the person who constantly says “I hate drama” is always the one causing it

      1. KN*

        Yes? OP started a business with the intent of escaping toxic environments, but inadvertently created their own toxic environment. Action with effect opposite of what was intended = situational irony.

        But is it *unexpected*, from an outside perspective, that someone who saw toxicity everywhere then found themselves creating it? Well… maybe not.

    1. Pants*

      I thought the same thing. “Does this company only manufacture red flags?” (Thank you, Maria Bamford!)

    3. Campfire Raccoon*

      Maybe, but the owner is so hands off she really doesn’t know what they’re producing.

    6. Storm in a teacup*

      Lol all I can hear in my head now is Simone from RPDR S13 saying ‘flag factory’

  24. Eldritch Office Worker*

    This feels like a sitcom, with a leader who’s such a caricature of a bad business owner that it’s satirical, and a slippery ambitious antagonist who comes in and charms their way into power and pushes Emily Deschanel’s character out. This is horrifying to see in real life.

    1. Fran Fine*

      I was thinking this was like an episode of original recipe Gossip Girl with Laura as the Blair Waldorf character. Toxic and manipulative as all get out, smh.

        1. Fran Fine*

          Ha! Probably not. But for Miranda’s sake, I hope Laura’s little scheme ends up just like most of Blair’s did – blowing up in her face.

    2. Lizzy May*

      This happened on the Office where Andy managed to suck up to Michael and push Dwight out. And that makes the OP the Michael Scott of their company. That is a very bad place to be.

      1. it's me*

        And then Michael realized his mistake, rejected Andy for being annoying, and went to hire Dwight back….

      3. Collarbone High*

        That episode was just on Comedy Central last night! That’s EXACTLY what this feels like.

  25. Nasyra*

    Ooof – this is a lot, what a mess. I think this answer is on point!

    One more thing not mentioned in the response… I absolutely do not blame Miranda one bit for not wanting to come into the store three days a week (when she had been performing her job remotely to your satisfaction for years) (AND after a demotion) considering that she lives *THREE HOURS AWAY*. No wonder she “doesn’t want the commute!” Does LW actually expect Miranda to spend 18 hours a week just driving because Laura says she “should?”

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Or god forbid she should *move closer* – my ears were a tea kettle after reading that one.

      I really hope Miranda gets out.

      1. Splendid Colors*

        Right, because this is an ideal time to move with the frenzied housing market and all.

    2. StoneColdJaneAusten*

      Nah, LW just isn’t thinking through that Laura wants LW to demand that knowing that Miranda will be forced to quit.

    3. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

      I don’t know why this was the most horrifying thing for me. She wants her to commute 6 hours per day, three times a week????? Does she expect an 8 hour workday on top of the commute for a 14 hour day for Miranda, again THREE TIMES PER WEEK? Holy crap, talk about a deal breaker.

  26. GigglyPuff*

    I hate to be this blunt OP, but this isn’t a Laura or Miranda problem, this is a you problem. Employees aren’t supposed to help manage your life. I mean did you even tell Laura you were demoting her? Have a conversation about the entire thing?

    Alison put it all much better than I could. But it sounds like you want to own your own business but not be the operator, and (I assume) just run the day to day stuff at the physical location. If you only want to be a manager/independent employee, you need to explicitly hire a management operator (not Laura!), but even then you need to be more involved than you probably are now.

  27. Esmeralda*

    Wow, Laura — I immediately thought, that’s Eve Harrington!

    Fasten your seatbelt, OP, it’s going to be a bumpy ride.

    1. Fran Fine*

      Yes!! And if OP’s not careful, OP’s next letter to Alison will be, “Help! My employee is trying to push me out of my own company!”

  28. Roscoe*

    I think I read this slightly differently

    I don’t know that Laura is “poison” in fact, I feel like she is likely making some good and valid points. However, I can also see how given the info we have, its not really easy to see. As far as the “unsafe” thing, well I think a lot of people throw words around like that these days that are baseless, so while I agree this situation doesn’t rise to that level, Laura wouldn’t be the first person I’ve seen use that term (as well as “hostile”, “bullying” and a number of others), when it doesn’t really seem applicable.

    But OP, you have managed this situation horribly. You put yourself in a situation where you don’t know what really needs to be done to run your company. You don’t want to manage these 2. You demoted someone, but won’t tell them what their new job description is, and you have unreaslistic expectations.

    This could be a number of things. It could be a simple personality conflict. It could be that Laura IS better at the job than Miranda was, and Miranda isn’t willing to help. It could be that Laura is better and pushing out Miranda. It could be that Laura is worse, but because she has face time and more people there on her side, that she just seems better because of optics.

    But OP, you really need to get your house in order

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Not necessarily–if they have different jobs, one may feed information to the other.

        My supervisor often needs my help with things, not because she’s not good at what we do but because our duties don’t completely overlap, and I often have information on hand that she would have to track down.

      2. Roscoe*

        I don’t necessarily think that is true. Depending on the systems used and what the job is, you can definitely be better at handling things, and still need the help of people who have used a system for a long time. My company uses a lot of software systems. Just because someone may come in good at a job function, doesn’t mean they won’t need help on certain processes.

        As an example, you can be great at Sales, and still need help learning the companies CRM system.

    2. Simply the best*

      Can I ask what good points you think Laura made? When I read the letter I hear her say the nonsense about Miranda needing to live closer and the nonsense about how abysmal you have to be at your job to mess something up remotely. She says she has to fix Miranda’s mistakes, but op doesn’t actually give us an example of any mistakes. And considering how Laura is trying to get Miranda fired, I wouldn’t take that as truth unless we had concrete examples. So… I don’t see the good points you think Laura is making.

    3. Save the Hellbender*

      I think you’re right that we can’t know the nature of the actual work dispute, and the bulk of the blame here is the OP’s, but we can know that Laura is poison because Laura is, as someone pointed out, mimicking Grima Wormtounge and saying truly bizarre things! She is clearly unprofessional and even if she’s 100% right about Miranda’s work, Laura is a bad employee.

    4. Emilia Bedelia*

      I agree to some extent – Laura probably is legitimately good at some of her job, and she may have some good comments on ways that things could be improved in the warehouse. There IS likely some disconnect between what she sees in person and what Miranda sees as a remote worker, and so changes that make sense to one party don’t make sense to the other.

      The problem is, OP should have been the one mediating and helping to make the right decision all along… and since OP has been out of the picture, Miranda/Laura have to fight it out on their own. If OP were more hands on and made decisions that’s best for the business, based on the employee’s input, the relationship might have been salvaged. But OP deliberately abdicated responsibility and has shown their employees that they don’t have the knowledge to make these business decisions.
      Laura is savvy enough to understand that OP doesn’t want to get involved, and that’s what makes her dangerous – I don’t know that this situation is salvageable, because OP doesn’t have the information or ability to determine whether Laura is acting in her own self interest or whether she does have good points.

      1. Cinderella Sparklepants*

        +1. I tried to make a similar comment up top somewhere, but you said it better. Maybe Laura is 100% right, or maybe she’s stealing from OP (or, more likely, any of 1000 possibilities in the middle), but it doesn’t even matter at this point because OP is clueless. OP has to get their house in order before they’ll actually know what needs to be done.

        1. Andy*

          There is no way for Laura to be 100% right. There are several points that are quite wrong and one of them clearly manipulative – the one about omg screwing something while not being there you must be abysmal.

          That comment is about emotional us vs them feeling and making OP agree due to being funny. But it is nonsense, of course remote worker can make mistake without being abysmal.

    6. Me*

      Employees who aren’t poison don’t claim another employee makes them feel unsafe when there is exactly zero threat to their safety. That’s a horribly nasty thing to claim about someone.

      1. Expelliarmus*

        Not do they try to turn otherwise benign things about another employee into ammunition against said employee to their boss.

        1. Me*

          Exactly. I’m really not understanding the handful of people who are like “oh Laura may not be exactly what she’s acting like, we just don’t know!”

          1. Amaranth*

            I think its because the OP comes across as an unreliable narrator. We just get their feelings about Laura and how *trying* it is to have to pick sides when they don’t know anything. We don’t really know what Laura thinks needs improvement or why Miranda is shooting it down because OP hasn’t a clue. The one thing that is clear is that OP needs to learn how the company runs.

    7. Batgirl*

      Saying “Oh, can I hire all my friends?” and getting the go ahead to do so is the most efficient way to brew poison that I can think of. While I am suspicious that Laura is deliberately targeting OP as a sucker and making trouble, it doesn’t matter as far as toxicity goes. Accidental toxicity based on lazy favourtism is as common as daisies.

    8. DefinitiveAnn*

      Re using words like this a lot…OMG yes. If “toxic” was a shot word at AAM, I’d never make it back from lunch.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I am not a fan of the “personality conflict” explanation. In part because it seems to be used mostly when women are involved.

      If it was a personality conflict then the answer is to sit both people down and remind them that they are being compensated for their willingness to get along with others. They both need to find a path through their differences and get the job done.

      I don’t think personality conflict fits here because this seems to be mostly about Laura’s unending list of complaints about Miranda. OTOH, Miranda does not seem to have any where near the amount of complaints that Laura has.

      1. Ori*

        Yeah, I like the phrase ‘conflict is not abuse’, but the flip side to that is that abuse (or bullying in this case) isn’t conflict either. One employee undermining and picking at another isn’t a ‘conflict’.

  30. EmKay*

    Oh yikes, what a mess. OP you have to nip your own behaviour (showing favouritism to Laura and her friends) in the bud right now or you are going to lose Miranda and/or your business is going to take a serious dive.

  31. LTL*

    OP, I say this with kindness and the hopes that your business flourishes. You need to work on your professionalism. You need to acknowledge that you are in a position of power, controlling these people’s livelihoods, as their boss. The arrangement you have with them is a business deal. Being a manager means that you have to actively manage your business, your employees, and be capable of measuring their success objectively. A boss that can’t judge their employees’ work isn’t a good boss.

    Judging your employees’ work entails
    – doing so impartially (only considering things that are a part of their work in your evaluation of them as an employee- and not as a friend)
    – understanding their work (having enough familiarity with the things they do that if errors are happening often, you can spot them)
    – setting expectations around what bad, good, and great work looks like (you shouldn’t expect Miranda to figure out what her job is, you should have updated job descriptions for all your employees, don’t rely on unspoken expectations about being available outside of work hours and then ding employees for not following a secret rule). Alison’s famous interview question (“what distinguishes someone mediocre from someone who would excel in this position?) isn’t just meant to impress. It tells candidates a lot about how well-thought out a position is. Great managers are able to answer it well.

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      Yes, this! Owning and operating a business is primarily a managerial job, OP. If you can afford it, some managerial training and/or management consulting for your business might benefit you.

  32. I should really pick a name*

    ” I don’t have an updated job description for her”

    Then what was the point of the demotion? Changing her job title should mean changing her job description.

    2. ples*

      No kidding. If I got demoted, I’m sure not going to be working on the same projects and things for lesser pay and lesser title.

    3. AB*

      Even if she wasn’t demoted, it’s totally reasonable to expect to have access to your job description. I imagine “she should just know” made every HR professional audibly gasp.

      1. RW*

        I used to work for someone like the OP. I had a job description, but I was not allowed to do a lot of the things in it. After some frustrating encounters, I asked my boss if she could tell me what she saw my job as being, because we clearly didn’t see it the same way. She refused and told me she didn’t understand why we had to “define everything.”

    5. Chris*

      Totally agree. It is absolutely normal to review job descriptions every few years to make sure they are still relevant. In this case, I would ask for clarity since Miranda seems to be told at every turn that she is doing something wrong, when that wasn’t the case for many years.

    6. Gel Pen Destroyer*

      Right? I’m still trying to figure out what it is that OP does all day. She doesn’t manage the company’s finances, software, product sourcing, distribution, or warehouse, and she’s not managing the HR functions, like updating job descriptions, either. And she has an employee doing personal favors and errands for her. Which leaves her to do what, exactly?

        1. Blue*

          Not even that! They source product, and OP doesn’t know how or where from, it sounds like.
          OP, genuinely, I have to believe you do *something* all day, but based on what you’ve described, it’s hard to imagine what’s left for you to do. Making the window displays pretty? I mean, that’s a job, but it’s not the manager’s job.
          You do not run this business. Miranda does. It sounds like she’s been running it very successfully with minimal input or supervision from you for several years. This is your proof that she is doing a good job; your company, which consisted for years of only you and Miranda, was doing well without you knowing anything about how it runs! That only leaves Miranda to be responsible for your success, there’s no one else it could be!

          1. Fran Fine*

            THIS. OP needs to do some serious self reflection because there was a surprising lack of self-awareness present in this letter.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      If there is no updated job description then OP needs to create one.

      OP, you seem to have stalled out here. It is up to you, actually, to make that job description. You should know what you are paying Miranda to do.

      1. Decima Dewey*

        It sounds like OP thinks Miranda’s actual job description is “everything Laura can’t or won’t do.”

  33. Jean*

    OP you need to get control of your business. First of all, you’re doing yourself no favors at all by not knowing how your own system works. That needs to be remedied immediately, otherwise you’re going to remain at the mercy of your staff. You also need to be looking at every situation from a business perspective, not a personal perspective, and thinking way more critically about the things your staff are telling you. Even if Laura isn’t taking advantage of you, eventually you’re going to have someone in there who tries to, and they will be able to easily if you don’t smarten up and get some better habits and boundaries in place.

  34. PPaula*

    Laura sounds toxic. OP sounds clueless. I’ve been Miranda. It sucked.
    I’m betting that Laura has a third friend that she wants to recommend for Miranda’s job. Be careful, OP, you’re next!

    1. The Prettiest Curse*

      Maybe all hee suggested employees are related and it’s a warehouse version of Parasite…

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Same. I was Miranda (except in office). New employee was successful in getting me to leave. Two years later, new employee is arrested for embezzlement, which was pretty much what I predicted in my resignation letter. I hope my letter helped them notice.

    3. Ori*

      I was bullied relentlessly by a new manager, which made no sense because I had otherwise good relationships and was bringing in the bulk of the department’s revenue. I eventually gave up and quit. Lo and behold, her daughter got my job.

      (She couldn’t hack it and the role was re-advertised a couple weeks later but that’s a different story).

  35. AceyAceyAcey*

    When Allison talks about how places that “feel like family” have poor boundaries, this is the sort of place she was talking about.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      “We’re like a family”
      “Yeah but this shit is why I don’t talk to my actual family”

      2. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        I didn’t talk to my sister for 2 years after she hassled me about my weight. I think if she’d demoted me in favour of her new best friend we’d still not be on speaking terms.

        Family, friends, romantic relationships etc. still have the ‘opt out’ function – which a lot of these ‘we’re like a family’ companies don’t understand.

    2. Campfire Raccoon*

      She didn’t pull any punches, and thank goodness for that. These types of letters help me check my own small-business biases. List this under: How I don’t want to be when I grow up.

  36. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Blue Forevermore*

    Personally I am not usually in favor of changing things, as Miranda was accused. From my experience, it’s typically just different and not often better. Many times it’s worse. It takes time and effort and causes confusion just so someone can try an experiment that too often fails.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      And will probably be a major headache for Miranda since the OP doesn’t know how her business is run as it is. Laura putting her own systems in place sounds like a power grab.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      There’s no way to know this without a lot more information. Every decent place I’ve ever worked has made changes that turned out to be for the better, usually for the much better.

      1. Simply the best*

        Sure, but OP doesn’t know anything about her own business so there’s no way to know if Miranda is just being obstinate or if she has reasons for not wanting to make change. And we don’t know what these changes actually are.

        I just had a meeting with a whole bunch of people who want to make changes at my work and had to put my foot down and say absolutely not are we making these changes because the amount of work that I will end up having to do doesn’t make sense for what little benefit this change will give us. Not all change is good.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          That was kind of my point: There is no way to know here which it is. Simply wanting to make changes is not inherently good or bad–in your case, it meant more work for you; in mine, it meant less, and vastly better service for our clients. But neither of our situations has anything to do with this situation so unless and until we know a whole lot more about what’s going on here, there is no way to tell whether making changes is better or not.

          Maybe Miranda doesn’t want to make changes because it would mean more work for her, but maybe she just doesn’t want to learn anything new even if it would benefit the business. The LW admits she hasn’t worked with the software in years, so there’s at least some chance it’s completely out of date and a newer version might be an improvement.

        2. qvaken*

          Sometimes requesting changes is about people wanting to have input into the work they do every day and the systems and processes they use. If you think the “cons” of a worker’s suggestion outweigh the “pros”, I think it can be a good idea to show that you listened and that you valued their perspective and their input, even if you also have to tell them that you can’t implement the change they suggested.

    3. MassMatt*

      We don’t really have enough info about what changes are being proposed, and it’s natural to be wary of change, but IMO this kind of conservative mindset is increasingly at odds with business. Technological, social, and legislative changes are accelerating, and it’s not going to stop or slow down, it’s only going to accelerate more.

      Yes, sometimes the new software/management reorganization is a PITA, but overall change is here to stay and the better we adjust, the better off we will be.

    4. Emilia Bedelia*

      I think the key here is that OP’s business model has changed. I think it’s very likely that the system Miranda has set up worked well for the previous setup using a contracted warehouse/shipping company, but the shift to hiring in-house warehouse staff means that the system needs to work differently. In a functional business, both Miranda and Laura would be able to bring up their concerns and a decision would be made considering both sides.

      It seems like OP fundamentally does not understand that running a business means that compromises and decisions need to be made. The desire for “camaraderie” sounds like OP is expecting a group that is all aligned in mindset, with no disagreements or conflicts, so all the business decisions would be easy because everyone agrees.

    5. SnappinTerrapin*

      “Change for the sake of change” and “doing it the way we always have” are two sides of the same coin.

      Both are apparently easy answers for someone unwilling to do the work of figuring out what the alternatives really are, and what the likely costs and benefits are of those alternatives.

      1. qvaken*

        I agree. I think it’s more about accepting feedback and doing a cost-benefit analysis to decide the best way forward. Change isn’t always the right way, and change isn’t always the wrong way, either.

  37. Dust Bunny*

    ” I don’t know what is a mistake and what isn’t or about our software and the business and limitations. I haven’t used our software in years and I don’t know that much about our product sourcing and things that Laura wants to change.”

    OP, you need to get back on the horse and run your business. Right now it sounds like you just want to be there for fun but don’t want to bother with any of the stuff that is actually involved in running a business. Like, by a lot. You can’t succeed at this while also avoiding all the hard and/or boring nuts-and-bolts stuff. You seem to be hoping that your employees will magically make this work out for you without your participation.

    I can’t tell here who or what the problem is–it sort of sounds like you have two strong, pushy personalities duking it out in your living room–but the first step is for you to take back the reins and be the leader you’re supposed to be here, whether it’s fun and good-vibey or not.

    1. JustSomeone*

      Is Miranda actually a strong and pushy personality, though? We only seem to have Laura’s word on that, filtered through the letter writer. It’s not pushy to want a job description or decline to work 24/7 or not want to commute 6 hours a day.

    2. pieforbreakfast*

      I feel like this is the perfect set-up for embezzlement, from Miranda or Laura, or… The owner is so unaware of their company and how it works, and recent changes in adding a warehouse crew instead of using a contractor just add to this.

  38. Salyan*

    OP, I’m not sure where you’re located, and what the confidentiality rules are there, but in future, DO NOT discuss one employee with another as you did. It was completely inappropriate and a breach of confidentiality to tell Laura what Miranda had said to you. (And I think you’ll find it creates significantly less employee drama.)

      1. Fran Fine*

        To cause problems. I suspect Laura and OP share some similarities, which is why OP thinks they’re besties and can’t see what a problem Laura truly is.

  39. Eldritch Office Worker*

    OP I wouldn’t be surprised if you avoid this comment section – I probably would – but even if you don’t comment or read I hope you really take Alison’s advice to heart and rethink how you’re running things.

    And if you do delve in, we’d love some clarification on what’s going on here. What is your role? What are you actually doing for the business? How are you making decisions?

  40. Annony*

    I’ve been Miranda except luckily my boss valued me and tended to take my opinions seriously. A new person came in and wanted to change everything. Most of the changes they wanted to make would have negative effects or not achieve what they thought it would. My boss did understand the issues enough to listen to both arguments and make reasonable choices, most of the time siding with me and occasionally siding with the new coworker. I feel like the OP is upset in part because they realize that they have a huge knowledge gap about their own business and they are wrongly blaming Miranda for having that flaw exposed. The solution wasn’t to demote Miranda. It should be to actually learn the business enough that they don’t have to rely on their employees to tell them what is feasible and what isn’t.

    1. Double A*

      Yes, it seems like the OP is most upset when their unreasonable expectations and lack of knowledge are exposed. I had some hope early in the letter when they said they were ashamed to admit they don’t really know the processes, because it showed some self awareness, but then every action thereafter had been one of deflection and blame. The op is being unprofessional for refusing to manage, but they deflect and call their employees unprofessional for putting op in the middle. Yikes.

      Honestly this sort of reaction is so deeply engrained and dysfunctional that the only way to deal with it is a commitment to change and probably a lot of therapy. It takes a long time. Longer than the op is going to have Miranda on staff, because Miranda is job hunting right now.

  41. Prague*

    “I just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly.”

    But isn’t OP literally the person to tell everyone at his or her company what to do? Am I missing something?

    1. fantomina*

      yeah, “someone to tell me what to do” is a boss, and “help me run my life smoothly” is a personal assistant. Neither responsibility belongs to your employee.

      2. Gel Pen Destroyer*

        Yep. OP needs a small business owner mentor, and perhaps also a life coach-type person, but neither of those can or should be her employees.

      3. Anti anti-tattoo Carol*

        THIS. OP, please separate “my business” from “my life” because it seems like you’re using the two interchangeably which is not healthy. While your business might *feel* like your life, it’s not, and shouldn’t be, Miranda’s or Laura’s. Consider writing down a list of your very specific needs. Color code that shit with one color as “personal” and the other as “work.” If your list is mostly personal affairs, you need a personal assistant. If you list contains your business’ day-to-day, you need an office manager. Those aren’t the same thing. And ideally neither role would go to your close friend, since that is creating a conflict of interest for you.

  42. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

    My gut reaction is that ultimata are bad and unprofessional, so I was ready to dismiss it out of hand. As I read the whole letter, though… forget bees; there be dragons here.

    Let’s start with Laura fixing Miranda’s mistakes. LW, did you just accept that assertion absent evidence? What kind of mistakes; a missing period at the end of a sentence, or the books are off by a random $1M ($1,000) each month in random directions? Is Laura even qualified to determine if those were truly mistakes or just things she didn’t have full context for? Do her fixes actually improve the situation at hand?

    If Miranda’s your books-and-accounting person, how often do the warehouse rank and file need to interact with her? Is there any documentation of her difficulty to work with?

    Laura might be alright, but you really need to divorce her off-hours friendship from the business’ needs. She’s not your butler or handler. You’ve already made your own job harder by muddying the waters.

    I couldn’t even see all the dragons Alison was able to shed light on. Frankly, I think you’re in over your head, and your winning move may be to screen for and hire an experienced professional Manager to run your shop for you and free you up for the portion of the business you are handling well.

  43. Ms. Ann Thropy*

    OP needs to learn her own business well enough so that she is able to know when an employee is doing a good job or a bad one. Business 101.

    1. KWu*

      This is the part that gets me the most. I don’t understand how OP has been going along all the time and not know whether her single employee is doing a good job or not?

      1. Ally McBeal*

        And… like… why would you write in to Alison when you are fully aware that there’s a gaping hole in YOUR knowledge of your business, possibly one that (once remedied) could solve the entire issue?

        “I don’t know how my business works, so I’m not sure if Laura is right” >> “I learned how my business works and was independently able to determine who was right”

        1. msjwhittz*

          Because, as the OP stated, they want someone else to tell them what to do! And for that thing to not be “learn your own business and start to act with professionalism and boundaries,” but unfortunately that’s really the only way forward here.

        2. JB*

          TBH I can see how LW could be feeling overwhelmed now that she’s in this position. Because the main two people she has available to teach her about her own business are…Miranda and Laura.

          The best answer for how to learn involves talking to each of them separately, along with a lot of independent research on how businesses in this industry are generally supposed to work. That’s going to take a lot of time and be very daunting. Given how LW describes herself leaning heavily on Laura to manage her personal life recently, it sounds like she has a lot going on on top of that.

          But that’s really what she’s going to have to do. She has no way of determining who’s right or wrong until she does. And it’s fully possible for two people to strongly disagree like this and BOTH be right (although that seems unlikely in this case because a lot of the direct quotes LW has provided from Laura are out of touch with reality, re: how Miranda would move closer if she ‘really cared about the company’ for example) in which case it’s even more important for LW to understand what’s going on and be able to make a decision.

          1. Batgirl*

            I’d be overwhelmed too, and there is a lot to do. I do however think OP could start with Laura’s overstepping and tell her that she isn’t the person who gets to call the shots on Miranda. Probably something like: “I might have accidentally led you to believe you have more input than you do, but it’s not appropriate to discuss Miranda’s employment with me in a high handed way. If you have any evidence of mistakes or something concerning, I want to see that evidence but I’m not really after opinions”. Just getting her back into her lane would probably help a lot.

  44. animaniactoo*

    LW, here’s what I can tell you about what’s happening:

    Right now, you are poised to lose Miranda even if you tell Laura that she’s free to go, but that you will not fire Miranda.

    Because, you have quite honestly treated your dedicated and loyal employee like crap based on ONE person’s say-so in an arena that you admit yourself you don’t know enough about to accurately assess it.

    I mean… you COULD start by asking Miranda why she so strongly feels that X and Y would be a problem. You could dig into that and then be the one who makes a decision… as the owner of this business and the one who SHOULD be the most invested in it. Which right now, it does not sound like you are. But you don’t seem willing to do even that and I wonder why.

    So… Miranda… the employee upon whom so much of how your business runs and operates rests right now… will go find a place that doesn’t denigrate her work on one person’s say-so, without the opportunity to explain, and which doesn’t demote her because somebody else did personal favors for the boss.

    You will lose the underpinning of a business that nobody else knows how to do, because listen – why SHOULD she help someone who has proven that she’s out for her/her job? Why SHOULD she help them succeed with that?

    And fwiw – if you demoted her? No. She should not “just know” what her current job responsibilities are. She is asking you for the dividing line of what now belongs to Laura, and what stays with her or is added for her. Because that is what will enable to her to stay within her boundary lines. And you won’t even give her that much.

    Yes. You are going to lose Miranda if you keep going in this vein. And I hope that it has become clear why that is.

    1. The Rural Juror*

      Very good points! I would also add that Miranda has not been with the business “forever.” Four years is a blip on the timeline of a typical person’s career life. If I were Miranda, and I had only been with the company four years and this started going on, I wouldn’t hesitate to start packing up and looking elsewhere.

      That’s not to say that anyone can’t leave a job at anytime, but when the OP wrote that line I thought they were going to say that Miranda has been there like 20 years or something.

      1. Littorally*

        Right, same. And it’s very weird to me that the OP worded it that way. Is the business only 4 years old, and Miranda has been there since the start? Or is their turnover normally so blazingly fast that 4 years seems like an eternity?

        1. JB*

          Based on other information in the letter, I think the business is only 4 years old and Miranda has been involved since the founding.

          High turnover seems like an impossibility since there’s only been one employee up until this point (Miranda) and LW doesn’t seem to know enough about what that position does to have hired and trained new people into it.

        2. Just Another Zebra*

          My impression was that the business is only about 4 or 5 years old, or had a small growth spurt that long ago (like if OP was selling something on Etsy, and did very well and needed someone to handle the accounting, etc).

        3. Bamcakes*

          I was wondering whether OP bought an established business and Miranda was already in post, which would also explain how come the business is successful without OP seeming to understand how it works.

      2. Pyjamas*

        And compared to 4 years ago, now there are more employers willing to hire remote workers. I wish Miranda the best success in her job hunting!

    2. Sparkles McFadden*

      Also, the reason Miranda seems “negative” to the OP is because she has probably been trying to be the voice of reason and logic for four years. She probably has to keep saying “You shouldn’t make that change because…” It’s pretty difficult to explain things to a boss who does not want to know a lot about her own business.

  45. rl09*

    “I don’t know if Miranda is right or not and I don’t know what is a mistake and what isn’t or about our software and the business and limitations. I haven’t used our software in years and I don’t know that much about our product sourcing and things that Laura wants to change. I feel like they keep putting me in the middle and that’s really unprofessional.”

    This sounds like prior to Laura’s arrival, Miranda was at least performing well enough that OP didn’t actually have to do any management at all. That’s probably a good sign that Miranda is competent at her job.

    5. Alpacas Are Not Dairy Animals*

      Not necessarily, depending on how much money the OP’s been pumping into the business without any idea of where it’s going. At no point does the OP characterize the business as ‘successful’ or ‘profitable’.

  46. Parenthesis Dude*

    I think the LW needs to have a chat with Miranda and see whether she’s torched that relationship, or whether groveling can salvage it. Could be that Miranda is going to leave anyway.

    1. Other Duties as Assigned*

      I agree that Miranda will likely leave.

      However OP, if you do jettison Laura (and her pals) and ARE interested in groveling to keep Miranda, here’s a pro tip: YOU make the six-hour round-trip to do so, DON’T make Miranda do it.

  47. jane's nemesis*

    This letter is bananas. This person writing the letter seems to have no idea how very wrong they are? Even as they are writing down things that make it clear they are very, very wrong?

    1. Tangerina Warbleworth*

      I think it may come from her perspective: the inaccurate idea that she should be able to own a business and make money from it without having to actually do anything. It reminds me of Bar Rescue: so many people want to open a bar so they can just sit around all day drinking while other people do all the work that brings in money. Not how it works.

    2. MadisonB*

      The total lack of self-reflection and insight (such as demoting someone then being indignant about being asked for an updated job description and outraged for not receiving responses to emails 24/7/365) and ridiculous statements (such as “I just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly”) had me questioning if this is a real situation or possibly a letter that someone made up for fun or as a parody. There are so many “WTF?!” moments in this letter that I’m baffled by it.

      1. Bamcakes*

        Yeah, me too. It’s hard to imagine anyone writing that sentence in full seriousness and not having any kind of self-insight that maybe running a business is not for them!

  48. fantomina*

    OP should hire Laura to be her personal assistant, promote Miranda to manager (because clearly she’s running the business!), take some trainings on the software, start reading the financial statements and any other documentation Miranda produces, and learn how the business they own actually operates.

      1. Feral campsite raccoon*

        All this except she should hire someone ELSE to be her assistant, because Laura is clearly toxic.

  49. generic_username*

    I left a lot of toxic jobs because I wanted my own business and camaraderie. The energy is so bad now. I just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly

    Go get some leadership training…. people like to act like those classes are a waste of time and money, but you have no idea how to operate a functional workplace right now. And that last sentence is literally the benefit of not owning and managing your own business – you gave that up when you decided to be your own (and others’) boss.

    Also, unless you know exactly how to do every part of Miranda’s job, I’d be careful about letting some new person push her out. With that work load, Miranda can earn quite a bit of money being office manager elsewhere and likely is already working toward that (at least I would be in that situation!)

    1. rl09*

      Agreed! If you “just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly” … entrepreneurship is not a good career path for you.

  50. Detective Amy Santiago*

    Woooooow

    This is why I will never work for a small business again.

    LW, please take Alison’s response seriously. You are putting your business in serious danger.

    My last job was for a small business. When I got hired, it was basically just me, the owner, and one other person. It was a temp to perm position and it was going well enough, so when we got to the end of temp period, the owner wanted to hire me permanently and I was on board. At that point, owner disclosed to me that other employee was their partner. I’d had no idea, so clearly they had done well behaving professionally.

    Around this time, owner hired two more employees, one for in the office and one to focus on bringing in new clients. This is when the issues started to appear and I realized that owner’s partner wasn’t very good at the job. It got to the point where both new employees ended up leaving and I’m fairly certain it was in large part because of partner’s incompetence.

    Owner hired another new person for in the office. Things were going mostly well for a while, but again, owner’s partner’s incompetence was causing problems. New person and I both talked to the owner about our concerns. (This is about the time when I discovered AAM.) Eventually they decided that partner shouldn’t work there anymore and things improved. A few months later, I ended up moving on to my current position (with owner’s support) and owner hired a couple new folks. I stayed in contact with the coworker who had shared my concerns about owner’s partner and, for a while, things were steadily improving. Business was increasing, There were no issues. Then, for some reason, owner’s partner ended up coming back. And things immediately went downhill again. My coworker ended up leaving and now I have no idea what’s going on with the business.

    That’s a long story, but the tl;dr is that owner was tanking their own business because they allowed a personal relationship to supersede the business needs. It sounds like this is exactly what you’re doing.

    1. The Rural Juror*

      Your story is eerily similar to my experience at my first job out of college. I was hired as the only employee to a husband and wife who co-owned a business (but I did know they were married from the get-go). We were became busier and busier as the economy in our area was on the uptick in the 2010s and needed to hire more people. The more people we hired, the worse it got! I guess it was easy enough with just me (wearing alllllll the hats), but they could NOT manage a group of employees and things eventually imploded. Turns out a lot of their problems stemmed from their marital issues (and somehow they both felt it was ok to tell me about things). I left right before the rubble came crashing down and I’m so glad I got out when I did.

      Personal relationships should not cross the threshold into business dealings. Period.

    2. A Feast of Fools*

      If this was a dog-walking / dog-sitting business I’d say I know who you’re talking about.

      A family member of mine worked for a small dog-sitting business that was owned and managed by a woman and her partner. Literally the same scenario you described: When the partner was involved, it was a sh*t-show. When the employees complained loudly enough, the partner bowed out. For a time. Then she got bored (?) and decided to get involved again.

      My family member quit after just a couple of weeks of the partner’s re-entry. The business folded within a year.

    3. feral fairy*

      My first job out of college was for a nonprofit where the ED was married to the VP. It was a total nightmare. The ED was also the founder of the organization and had been there for several decades. She was extremely controlling and verbally abusive to employees. The place had such high turnover and there were constantly job openings. The dynamic was interesting in a screwed-up way because her husband was for the most part not a total nightmare. Yet without fail, he always took his wife’s side, was her fiercest defender, and added fuel to her delusion that the problems in the organization were a result of her staff. There was no accountability whatsoever.

      Never in my life will I work for an organization or business run by a couple. This letter also demonstrates why close friendships can be problematic when there are no boundaries or oversight.

      1. CommanderBanana*

        Yeah, I worked mostly for small businesses before finishing grad school, and the ones where faaaaaaaaaaamily were involved always sucked. I worked for a fairly successful interior design and furnishing store – until the owner let his son run two of the stores because the son needed a job, and he promptly ran it into the ground. They’ve closed two of their three locations and the last one is kind of just hanging on. They don’t even have a functioning website anymore.

    4. Anomalous*

      When my wife started her business ten years ago, we had to do the initial training in our house, because the construction in the rental space wasn’t quite finished. My wife received a round of applause from her new employees when she announced that I was NOT going to be involved in the business.

      A decade later, her business is thriving, and I am still not involved, beyond being an occasional handyman and going to Costco to pick up paper towels and snacks.

    1. HR Ninja*

      Same! I’m guessing the OP wasn’t expecting the response from Alison and the readers he/she has gotten. If I were to wager I’d be he/she was looking for validation on mishandling this whole situation.

      1. JB*

        This seems like an uncharitable assumption. Based on the letter, it does sound like LW is genuinely looking for advice, she’s just so deep in the hole she doesn’t know that she’s trying to climb the wrong rope to freedom.

        1. Batgirl*

          I kind of got that vibe, like the OP is fine when one person is telling her what to do, but she has no idea what to do with conflicting narratives.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      In a year or so, so that we can know the middle-term impact to the overall business.

      Did it continue to grow, as it did with OP and Miranda alone? Did it tank?

  52. High Score!*

    *munches on popcorn*
    Please send an update! Please!
    Even better would be an update from Miranda!

  53. Daniel Cañueto*

    I’m totally for Allison’s answer. However, firing Laura might mean losing also her friends and causing disaster. Also, keeping Laura might be even the best option for OP, as she fits better with what she seems to value the most. Different folks different strokes.

    I only hope that Miranda reads this post and leaves for a better job.

    1. Mental Lentil*

      Nah. She can pivot back to the shipping company temporarily until she finds replacements, most likely. It will probably be costly, but that’s the price of experience.

    2. Sparkles McFadden*

      OP would be better off going back to the shipping company rather than be dependent on a group of friends working together with no oversight.

  54. The Original K.*

    I … wow. As someone said, this isn’t a Miranda problem, it’s a you problem. It’s also a Laura problem, but it’s a Laura problem because you allow it. You don’t seem to want to do the work required to run a business – not just the people-managing, but the actual operations. I cannot imagine owning a business and not using your own software “in years.” You don’t know where your product is sourced?! You don’t know what a mistake looks like, which likely means you don’t know how to fix it? You need to know these things, not least because if and when Miranda leaves (as she should), you’ll be screwed. I’m shocked that this hasn’t been a problem before now.

    1. Raida*

      I’m betting Laura’s going to sit comfortably on the highest salary she can manage, make her job sound difficult and that she’s doing OP a favour, and simply hire enough staff to do everything that’s not interesting or fun.

  56. animaniactoo*

    I would also like to say the movie Parasite? Was supposed to be thought-provoking. Not played out in real-time.

    3. The Prettiest Curse*

      Ha, I mentioned that in a comment above. Yes, I did get Parasite vibes from this letter and now I’m wondering what’s lurking in the secret cellar…

    4. Gerry Keay*

      Yup — especially since the person with the most power and privilege is doing the least amount of work and has completely stuck their head in the sand :)

  58. Hi Again*

    LW…I am not sure I agree with Alison’s conclusion that Laura is not trustworthy based on this info alone, but if she was, I doubt you’d be able to tell. You shouldn’t have borrowed her car and she should not be so involved in your personal life. And the fact that you can’t recognize promoting someone because they helped you in your personal life as favoritism is alarming. Also, you had absolutely no business telling Laura what Miranda said!

    Now onto your question. Given that Laura needs Miranda’s help…can you even run the business without Miranda? Tell Laura to get over it, if she leaves, she leaves.

    But also, Miranda doesn’t get to tell you “no” if you decide the business if going to start using certain procedures. Similarly, if she leave, she leaves.

    I really think you may need to hire a middle manager to be in between you and the other staff because (and I mean this with kindness) you’re not managing your team well and your letting personal feelings impact your business.

    Bottom line, get a backbone or hire one!

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      “… but if she was, I doubt you’d be able to tell. ”

      I think that’s the crux. I can see the point of view that Alison isn’t be fair to Laura, though my gut aligns with Alison’s on this, but I think the basic point that Laura has said some unreasonable things and OP can’t see past the halo she’s projecting onto Laura’s head is one the OP needs to hear in stark language. Because OP has lost complete control of this situation. If she ever had it.

    2. Liz T*

      I’d definitely say Laura’s APPRAISALS are not trustworthy. Not that she’s necessarily a dishonest person–but OP needs to stop taking everything she says as an objectively good judgment.

  59. Ermintrude*

    OP, this sounds like a shitty housemate situation, not an employee situation. It’s like you’re being played against Miranda so Laura can get rid of her and then claim the main bedroom with the ensuite attached.

  61. Public Sector Manager*

    OP, I guarantee that if you keep going down this path, Miranda will leave. And then Laura will pipe up that she actually knows someone who does what Miranda did for you–and it will be Laura’s spouse, friend, etc.. And Laura probably will be lying about it and will be just trying to hire her friends or family for yet another job.

    Laura hired her friends. Do you know anything about their qualifications? Were they the best for their respective roles? Did you even advertise for the role? Do you even know how much you’re paying them?

    What you need to do is keep Miranda, fire everyone else, go to a management class or some other training on how to properly run your own business, and then rehire people. You’re the CEO of your own brand, yet you’re acting like you have no authority to do anything about it and don’t know the basics of your company. Sorry to be so blunt, but you really need to reassess everything about your business.

    1. Raida*

      Here’s an extra though on the Laura-getting-friends-jobs train – *how* did OP decide to switch to in-house from an external company?
      Laura didn’t take over from someone else, she stepped into a newly-created role.
      And added two friends – does this warehousing actually even need three people?

      Did Laura just tell OP that she’d be so-much-better-off with this new setup?

  62. Dinoweeds*

    YIKES.

    OP I hope that you read the helpful responses here and work hard to do right by your employees.

    This whole thing is bonkers.

  63. Colette*

    Yeah, Miranda may be a good employee, or she may be totally incompetent, but Laura is poison. Maybe she’s a great friend, but she’s not a good employee. And the OP is not handling any of this well – she’s making business decisions based on friendship, trusting her new employee over her apparently good existing employee based on friendship, and being annoyed when asked to do her job.

  64. Never mine straight down*

    LW, you seem strangely oblivious to the workings of your own small business. It’s just, it used to be just Miranda and you, the boss. If Miranda truly did a shit job for 4! years how on earth did you not know??? I’m also firmly in the camp of thinking Laura is the shit stirrer here and obviously wants to get rid of Miranda. And btw what mistakes was Miranda supposed to be making according to Laura. Did you really check if it was true?
    I would probably recommend outsourcing your warehouse/shipping again to a company. Because gently, I dont think you are able to effectively manage employees. I mean for example like PP s have said of course they put you in the middle you are the boss.
    I hope for you you havn’t totally burned the bridge with Miranda. Because if I was her I would walk.

    1. Florp*

      Outsourcing warehouse operations might be a great idea if she is shipping more than a few orders a day, and if they need three people in the warehouse I suspect they’d meet that. There are quite a few warehouses now that will take customers with rather low volume.

      One big caveat–you still have to understand how inventory management works, because now you will have to stay on top of a remote warehouse to identify/prevent/correct mistakes. And you have to know how your software works, because guess how you get the orders to the warehouse?

      2. Amaranth*

        I wish we had more information because if OP was the only person putting together shipments for the shipping company to pick up, it might have been too much work for one person, but its quite a jump to add three. Either OP left out that temps came in to pack up orders, they were consistently behind, or maybe the yearning for a clubhouse atmosphere led to letting Laura hire as many people as she wanted.

  66. Two Chairs, One to Go*

    I got a headache reading that. So many red flags. How do you run a business and not know what your software can/can’t do? How do you not provide your employee with a job description?

    1. londonedit*

      Yeah. ‘She should know what she has to do’ – well, maybe she did, but then she was summarily demoted and her job title was given to someone else, so maybe now she has no idea what she’s actually meant to be doing?

    2. rl09*

      It sounds like LW demoted her, but still expected her to keep doing the same job and the same amount of work.

    3. Bagpuss*

      Yes – I mean, I can see that you might not necessarily know all the details of what the software can do, if you don’t use it regularly (I am a business owner, I wouldn’t claim to know everything our accounting software does, but I know the basics, and how to find out more if need be – (and my first port of call would to to ask the people who work with it day in and day out)
      And I know, for instance, that the package we have doesn’t include some optional add ones, which are available for this system, so you could have a situation where a new employee who’d used the same system elsewhere, but had used an expanded version with the add-ons, might assume it can do X, whereas it can’t in our case because, we don’t have that extra.

      As a business owner (especially with such a small business) LW should know the basics. And should certainly talk to the person who does know, before assuming that they are wrong / incompetent. Not to mention, they should ensure that they have back up plans and cross training. What would they do if Miranda were sick or (as seems fairly likely) left with no / short notice?

      When Laura started suggesting that Miranda was making mistakes the first thing OP should have done was to ask for details a from Laura, and then speak with Miranda in order to understand whether there was a mistake, or a miscommunication, or Miranda being awkward, or Laura expecting Miranda to do things which were not her responsibility / that she hadn’t been trained to do / that the software can’t do.

      1. Littorally*

        Great point about the software add-ons. When I changed jobs about five years ago, I transitioned between two different versions of the same software for certain activity tracking. And the thing was, it was really different! Both companies had the program tweaked to more specifically do what they needed it to. While my learning curve was certainly faster than if I’d been a total neophyte to it, there was still a learning curve and it surprised me what differences I found.

        1. Splendid Colors*

          Adobe Illustrator is the core of my business–yet I failed the LinkedIn skills quiz because I do vector artwork for CNC and the quiz is primarily about graphics for web design. Many of the features in the questions probably don’t even exist in CS4 (the version I trained on and use primarily). I haven’t even considered making “interactive web graphics” because I’m not a web designer and AFAIK my own website doesn’t need that level of bells-and-whistles.

      2. Crazy Book Lady*

        One other thing to consider is that Miranda has been the bookkeeper for four years and has a fiduciary responsibility to the company. When she says no to certain changes, it could be because the change would break Generally Accepted Accounting Principles. I don’t know if Miranda files the taxes, but she could be legally liable if she knowingly signs off on things that run afoul of GAAP standards.

      3. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        Agreed. I mean, I run IT and even I don’t know the detailed operation of every bit of software here. Just as well, I’m responsible for over 200 different applications..

        But I know enough to spot when one isn’t working.

      4. Luke G*

        That’s exactly what I was thinking- it could be entirely possible for a new hire to honestly believe there were changes to be made, and the existing worker to honestly believe they shouldn’t be made, and either of them could be right or wrong or somewhere in between. But figuring out the best way to handle that conflict would take a lot of work that OP doesn’t seem willing to put in- since the answer isn’t obvious, OP is defaulting to believing the one they like better.

    4. Gumby*

      Yeah. In my job we use some software that is *horrible*. It is fully acknowledged that they are awful, terrible, no good, very bad pieces of software (but are cheap and replacing them is expensive and it is on the list for replacement next year). You know who I would consider a power user of at least one of them? The CEO. And using this software is incidental to his job, not a core requirement, but he absolutely mastered it anyway. Which, frankly, is kind of contributing because when we say “the software can’t do X which is really a common feature of this type of software and would be crazy useful” he can always say “oh, but it does, you just have to have two users simultaneously type in the secret code with their left hands while one of them is doing a handstand; granted, it’s not ideal but it’s totally possible.”

  67. Former Young Lady*

    I feel like it’s really inappropriate for an employee to lend her boss a car. There is simply way too much financial and personal risk tied up in it. Even if the employee offers it, the power imbalance is too great — it’s an inherent conflict of interest. The professional and ethical thing for any boss to do would be to decline such an offer. Failing to decline was extremely poor judgment.

    This is exactly how small businesses owners get that toxic reputation of wanting power without demonstrating the equivalent level of competence or responsibility. Good business acumen includes fostering healthy workplace boundaries. Expecting employees to be on-call outside work hours, exploiting them for personal favors, and pitting them against each other like this are all symptoms of mismanagement.

    1. SwampWitch*

      “This is exactly how small businesses owners get that toxic reputation of wanting power without demonstrating the equivalent level of competence or responsibility”.

      Yes 100x. I stopped working for small business owners because they seemed to not have taken the time to drink their manager juice.

  68. Andrea Prigot*

    OP could get inexpensive or free assistance from the SBA or a local business organization to learn how to run the business and manage people.

    1. Mona-Lisa Saperstein*

      Was coming here to say this! Please, OP, invest some time and energy into learning management…or close your business.

    2. learnedthehardway*

      The OP might also be able to get some small business consulting support as well – it seems to me that while Laura is clearly manipulative and trying to run Miranda out of the company, that there may be some valid concerns (among her very unprofessional actions).

      The OP needs to re-learn her business from the ground up, and would really benefit from some outside perspective on her operations – the business may be at the size/stage of bringing in a few advisors as an informal board of directors who can provide advice and perspective. That might be more involved than the OP wants, but at the very least, she should be getting some advice from experienced business people. Contacting AAM was a good idea. Having a business mentor on an ongoing basis would be a good idea as well.

    3. irene adler*

      SCORE: Service Corps of Retired Executives.
      They too, can offer up business advice. It’s a volunteer organization so I bet the ‘price’ is very reasonable (free).

  69. Amy*

    Wow OP, get Laura out of your life ASAP! this woman sounds like she is about to take over your store lol. Please fire Laura and her friends, apologize profusely to Miranda along with a massive raise, and anything else she wants IF she will stay, and pay her extra to train YOU on the things you need to know about your business. Poor, poor Miranda.

  70. Amethyst*

    OP, everyone else has covered everything I was thinking several times over so I’m just gonna leave this here: By burying your head in the sand and failing to learn all aspects of your business inside out, and taking a recent employee’s word as gospel over your longest employee, you have turned your business into the toxic stew you ran away from. This is no one’s fault but your own.

  71. Florp*

    I run an online store with 5 employees, and we have a second business that is a factory that produces much of our product. This letter is giving me chest pains.

    Alison is spot on on the management issues here–you need to draw a sharp, clear line between your personal and professional life. I have worked for decades in a small industry that tends towards “network hiring”. Right now I have four sisters (!) working on my factory floor, plus some of their friends. It is a daily conscious effort to make sure that people don’t gang up on each other, sibling rivalries don’t spill over at work, & etc. They are excellent skilled employees, so it’s worth it.

    My company feels a sense of noblesse oblige towards our employees (old fashioned and paternalistic, I know, but also, just decent behavior towards other humans). We do everything we can to help them when they have a life crisis, including finding people rides to work and even caring for pets when they have a medical issue, for example. We do not expect our employees to help us in the same way–it’s an extension of the rule that employees shouldn’t gift up.

    But mostly, if you get nothing else from any of these comments and Alison’s excellent come to Jesus list, **you have to know more about your own business than anyone else**. Write clear job descriptions for not just Miranda, but also Laura and her cronies. Apologize to Miranda, create a fancy new title for her so that she is not demoted, and ask her to show you how it all works and what the limitations are. You need to relearn your software yesterday. I’m guessing you sell clothing or some other consumer good, and that you spend your days marketing or running the brick and mortar shop. That does not absolve you of knowing how the entire backend of your business works. At your size, I’m alarmed that someone else is handling your sourcing without oversight from you. Whether it is Miranda or Laura, they are spending your money! You are small, and therefore probably using off-the-shelf software (Woo Commerce? Shopify? QuickBooks?) There are thousands of YouTube tutorials on lots of software, and plenty more free online tutorials on general business procedures like inventory management. I am not an accountant, but I learned enough accounting from reading Accounting for Dummies to know if my accountant is doing a good job or not. Google and the library are your friend.

    Laura has identified that you don’t have full control over your business and she sees an opportunity to walk all over you. She may or may not be more competent than anyone else involved, but she is using her powers for evil, and she’s got henchmen.

    1. usually anon*

      One thing I tell myself when work minutiae has me stressed out is that I can’t care more about someone’s business than they do. Like, ‘why am I risking a stroke over some minor delay when TPTB can’t be bothered to fully staff my department’ kind of thing.

    3. Name Required*

      Absolute GOLD comment here. This is YOUR money. Your FREEDOM. You don’t need to know how to do everyone else’s job, but you need to know enough to make sure they are doing a good job. If you don’t know how to do that, you need to hit up the library, hire a consultant, join a mastermind, network at the local chamber of commerce, whatever it takes to get access to someone who is in your shoes that also doesn’t work for your business. Let those people be your friends. You need a Florp, not a Laura, in your corner.

      1. Florp*

        Aww, thanks! I have to admit this letter has me worried and I keep coming back to read and re-read the comments! I know OP must feel like we’re piling on, but she’s got a business to save!

  72. JustaClarifier*

    The only person who’s bad at their job here is OP. I cannot fathom such terrible management that has allowed this situation to develop. Brilliant advice from Alison. Quite frankly, I hope Miranda bails for her own sake.

  73. Blackcat girl*

    The OP hasn’t got a clue about her business details. Every auditor reading this letter is betting the company will end up toast after a ‘trusted employee and friend’ embezzles the funds.

      2. Florp*

        Saw this happen with a client once. They had two separate companies, and they would transfer cash between them as needed. They gave the book keeper authority to sign checks for both businesses. For two years, she wrote checks to herself and her boyfriend, but recorded them as cash transferred to the other company. She finally made a mistake and caused a bunch of checks to bounce, prompting a call from the bank to the owner of the company. Owner hired an accountant to audit the books, and on the day he started she threw whatever paper copies she had in her trash can, set it literally on fire, and ran away when the building evacuated. She was hoping the sprinkler would fry the computers, but there were backups.

        Worse, because she had check writing privileges, her defense attorney simply argued that the business owner couldn’t prove that he told her not to write those checks to herself, the prosecutor dropped the charges, and she kept the money. They couldn’t even prove she set the fire.

        1. Bagpuss*

          Yikes.
          (Also, yes! I am a a business owner. We have two excellent bookkeepers/accounts staff. I trust them both, they routinely deal with large sum of money and they are highly valued members of staff.
          And every single cheque or bank transfer out of our accounts has to be signed / authorised by me or one of my business partners. (we don’t use cash much except for things like buying milk or teabags, but if you draw petty cash you sign for it and you provide receipts afterwards)
          It’s our money, so it’s our responsibility.

        2. Bagpuss*

          Yikes.
          Also, yes! I am a a business owner. We have two excellent bookkeepers/accounts staff. I trust them both, they routinely deal with large sum of money and they are highly valued members of staff.
          And every single cheque or bank transfer out of our accounts has to be signed / authorised by me or one of my business partners. (we don’t use cash much except for things like buying milk or teabags, but if you draw petty cash you sign for it and you provide receipts afterwards)
          It’s our money, so it’s our responsibility.

        3. Littorally*

          I am in awe. Was the prosecutor friends with the defendant, perhaps? Sounds like they were totally phoning it in. That’s such a BS answer.

          1. Gracely*

            More likely it just wasn’t going to be worth the time/effort it would take to prosecute a non-violent (ish? given the attempted arson…) offender. Especially when the business owner granted so much power to the embezzler that it would be a harder case to make.

            Doesn’t make it right, but it does make sense that a swamped prosecutor would pass on this sort of case.

            1. Florp*

              Yep, exactly. No one saw her start the fire, and she was a smoker so she claimed it was an accident. There wasn’t much damage from the fire (they threw out a desk and the sprinkler only went off in her office), no one got hurt, the boyfriend was a web developer and claimed the checks were in payment for work done, and she mumbled something about expense reimbursements. The company’s procedures were just lax enough that they couldn’t prove any of it conclusively. This happened in an under-resourced small town and the prosecutor couldn’t manage complete audits for two businesses, an employee and her boyfriend. I think the company ended up suing her and the boyfriend, and the boyfriend paid them a few thousand to withdraw the suit so it wouldn’t show up in background checks (he was a contract worker and got checked frequently).

              Unsatisfying all around.

        4. COHikerGirl*

          I’m an accountant and have never once had signing authority at any company I have worked for (mostly small businesses). Any check or ACH needed confirmation/a signature. It was annoying at times (having to keep prodding the boss to sign things or approve), but having those approvals meant no funny business.

      3. Rainy*

        Absolutely my first thought.

        Some years back I did payroll for a small office and the finance person had been resisting a change from paper timesheets to an automated timesheet system for YEARS. None of my predecessors had been able to stand up for themselves against her because she was mean and nasty. In fact, a lot of them left a year or two into the role, so there wasn’t a lot of continuity.

        When I came on I was like “literally why are we using paper timesheets, this is absurd” and with leadership’s support, immediately began preparing the office to switch over to an automated time system. Within three months of hiring, I knew why the finance person was working so hard to prevent it–she’d been fudging her time sheet in ways that were only possible with a paper time sheet, because the values were entered by hand into the payroll system every month rather than being automatically uploaded from every electronic time sheet. It wasn’t a lot, but she was scoring between 4 and 8 hours of fraudulent overtime every week that contained a statutory holiday. She’d been with the office for over a decade, so…do the math.

        Now, do I think that she was intentionally making the payroll clerks miserable enough to quit so that no one would figure it out? I mean…maybe. She was super, SUPER unpleasant, so maybe it was just a coincidence. But when someone targets a bookkeeper, or a payroll clerk, or some other function that works as a check…just keep your eyes open.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Oh yeah I’m running an audit in my head about all the loss prevention vulnerabilities and I want to smack someone.

    3. A Feast of Fools*

      I posted below before reading this.

      I am an auditor.

      I am getting heart palpitations reading this letter.

      It’s like sitting in a dark movie theater watching the lead character onscreen walk down the steps to the basement even though the lights don’t work. They flick the switch several times, shrug, and head downstairs. Everyone in the audience is internally screaming, “NOOOOooooooo!! Don’t go down there!! Turn around and run out of the house!!”

    4. Campfire Raccoon*

      My exact thought was, “Laura is stealing or getting ready to. Her warehouse people are probably selling stock on the side.

      This whole letter is a palace K-drama.

  74. Ilovemess*

    I don’t have anything to add to Alison’s amazing response, but is anyone else getting Parasite vibes from this letter?

  75. cubone*

    “Miranda made me wait all weekend for an answer” and my eyebrows went up to my hairline.

    “I demoted Miranda and now she’s asking for a new job description, which I don’t get why she needs” and they’re at the ceiling.

    If the LW reads this, I really really hope you can take this with grace and reflect on what’s really going on here and why, for the good of your business and yourself.

    1. Ally McBeal*

      If someone demoted me and had the unmitigated gall to be upset that I didn’t come running on the weekend when my normal hours were 9-5 M-F anyway, I’d spend the entire next weekend sending out resumes. Possibly plotting a huge number of tiny, petty revenge pranks too.

      1. Just Another Zebra*

        Miranda doesn’t even need to plan or plot lol. Since OP doesn’t want to give her a new job description, all Miranda has to do is *not* do XYZ tasks. “Those tasks belong to the Executive, so this is Laura’s job now.” And when OP asks Miranda to train Laura? “Sorry, training isn’t part of my job description!”

        1. cubone*

          yeah, that’s the part I really can’t wrap my head around and is an incredible example of cognitive dissonance. “I changed her job, now she’s confused about what her job is, why is this happening to me??”… uhhhhh……….

    2. Underrated Pear*

      Right, and you left out “I think it’s really unprofessional of them to ask me, THEIR BOSS, to mitigate the situation,” and the fact that LW thought it was completely reasonable to ask an employee who lives 3 HOURS AWAY and has always (successfully!!) worked remotely to start commuting 3 times a week. I was literally grabbing my head and shaking it back and forth going “no, no, oh my god, no.”

  76. Danikm151*

    YES ALISON!

    You have said it straight. Poor Miranda, she is being pushed out and she knows it.
    Laura seems like the typical teenage bully- nice to higher ups then a twisted person.

  77. gmg22*

    Strikes me that the LW has a major contradiction staring them in the face: 1)They don’t really want to do any of the hands-on work of running a business, but 2)despite that, they are conflating the business with their “life” (while there is obviously going to be overlap there, it isn’t and shouldn’t be 100%) and think it’s the employees’ job to “help me run my life smoothly,” as opposed to making sure the store is running smoothly.

    1. cubone*

      this is a great observation. The part about Laura being a great/important employee because of personal favours she’s done (!!!) was like… whoaaaaa. What? Those two things are not related. It’s not really needed for responding to the main question, but I would love to know more about the LW and Laura’s relationship. Is LW asking for these favours, or does Laura just offer? What was the chain of events from “friend who helps me” to “employee” to “most important priority” to “her word is god” ?

      Some people have referenced Parasite, but there’s something really off here about the LW’s expectations and approach to their business.

  78. ohMy*

    Pick Laura, fire Miranda, find out that Laura can’t even do the job, Miranda doesn’t want to come back, business suffers because Miranda was a linchpin, Laura jumps ship, you put a sign on your front door saying no one wants a job anymore.

  79. Me*

    Yikes on several bikes. OP, because Alison didn’t explicitly say it, I will. You are a TERRIBLE manager.

    Employees are not there to be your friend. You are admitting to being very out of touch with the running of your business. And the utter irony of calling your employees unprofessional…..dude look in the mirror. Find some boundaries ASAP.

    Frankly you are lucky Miranda hasn’t quit.

    Laura is a sh*t stirrer. Those are not good employees no matter how many times the let you borrow their car (which double YIKES…..boundaries).

  80. AndersonDarling*

    Dear OP, round up your extra funds and hire a firm to locate an COO to run your business. Then pay the COO a lot of money to run your business.
    Then sit back and enjoy not having to deal with this. If your business is growing, then you probably have a good product and there is potential. But this is growing faster than you can handle. People don’t inherently know how to handle payroll, hiring, people management, finances, dispute resolution, product growth and all the other 100 things that you need detailed knowledge and experience to handle. You got this going, now it sounds like it’s time to hand the operational decisions over.
    If you want someone to tell you what to do, you actually can hire someone to do that.

    1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      I think OP had a COO. Her name is Miranda. How did that turn out in the end?

  81. Save the Hellbender*

    There was a Laura at my last job, and until this moment I hadn’t seen all the ways she and my boss were wrong listed out so matter-of-fact. I feel very affirmed! Thanks, Alison.

  82. Badger*

    OP, right now there are two big things that you need to do: take an emotional step back from from your employees so you can be more objective and get informed about the nuts and bolts of your business.

    Right now you are depending on other people to tell you whether things are right. Sit down with the software and go through instructional documents or YouTube videos and learn about it. Maybe there’s a customer service rep you can call to discuss the software’s capabilities.

    Figure out your processes. Maybe create a flowchart so you can see how Miranda and Laura’s current responsibilities are working. If Laura and her team say they are having issues with Miranda try to get specific and get them to quantify those issues. What specifically did Miranda do to cause issues with their workflow? Did they discuss this with her? Could they forward you the emails?

    If you take charge I think you can work towards a healthier workplace. But you have to take responsibility as the manager.

  83. Teapot Repair Technician*

    Miranda is bad at her job, but she’s also the only person working at this online retailer who knows how to use Shopify, QuickBooks, or whatever this mysterious “software” is?

    As someone qualified to handle “administration, IT, and books” (as evidenced by the fact that she grew the company large enough to have its own warehouse), I suspect Miranda could get a better job elsewhere.

  84. Amy*

    OP, you should hire Laura to be your personal assistant. You like all the things she does to “manage your life” so let her do that full time.

    Miranda can go back to managing your company for you- with a BETTER title & a raise- and all of the negative energy within the business will be gone.

    But maybe also hire an actual office manager bc you are absolutely not one.

    1. Me*

      Oh noooooooooo. Laura is a manipulator through and through. OP is already letting her overly influence the shots. Giving her more power and influence to do so is not a good idea. The only thing op should do with Laura is fire her and her cronies.

  85. Anonymath*

    Oh my goodness! This is my workplace except this is example is a small business and I’m at a university. Same issues, long-standing hardworking employees are sidelined by new hire who cozies up to the folks in charge. Lots of kissing up and kicking down. Finds a few like minded individuals to clique up with. Complains she feels unsafe for no valid reason. The Laura at my work has so far pushed out at least three faculty and is working on me. It’s a lot harder to move jobs with tenure, but everyone she’s supervising has either left, is on the market, or is stuck due to family complications (and even the stuck folks are looking, just closer to home). Her supervisor won’t deal with her or hear any complaints because “Laura” does favors for her outside of work and she wants everyone to just get along.

  86. RunShaker*

    OP you said Laura was there for you the past year & helped you manage your life which sounds like you see Laura as a friend. She is not your friend. My take is Laura has been manipulating you from the beginning or at least once she realized the lack of leadership/management you did in your business. I’ve seen people like this before & they leave havoc in their wake. Hell, I & few others had been manipulated by fellow employee. After the fact, the one thing that stood out was she moved around (internal positions) every 2 years & it wasn’t movement up in her career but lateral moves. Alison is spot on in her advice & I’m glad you wrote in.

  87. NW Mossy*

    This letter is a fine example of how the strengths that lead a person to start a business are not the same strengths that are needed to run it successfully.

    Many small businesses run aground on this particular rocky shore – they’re trying to expand by hiring staff, but the owner is underprepared for the new responsibilities and obligations that come with having a bigger team. If you’re someone who’s used to be extremely hands-off, it’s a huge shock to realize that with more people, you actually have do more work in setting clear direction for who’s doing what when. Without that guidance, conflicts and confusion among staff are inevitable.

    More broadly, the OP needs to do some heavy thinking and decide what critical functions they are and aren’t willing to perform for this business. The “will not perform” list is the foundation to define roles that cover those functions, which can include those cited in the letter (administration, IT, bookkeeping, shipping, etc.) and things that aren’t (people management, etc.). Once the roles are defined, you can move to determine if existing staff can fill them or if you need to hire for them (with an understanding of the market rate for that).

    A small business can work without the owner’s deep involvement in the day-to-day IF the owner’s a thoughtful one that understands what has to get done, is willing and able to delegate the responsibilities and authority necessary for others to do that work on their behalf, and establishes a clear oversight system that lets them easily see if the company’s on track (or not). Unsurprisingly, setting that up is a fair bit of work and keeping it going requires ongoing attention.

    There’s no free lunch in having your own business – you have to work for it, and often harder than you would if you were working for someone else because you get called upon to do so many things that may not be natural strengths.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      It sounds like OP wanted their own business to avoid corporate drama…wrong move, small businesses have 10x the drama. I’m also having a REALLY hard time reconciling “I’m a business owner” with “I just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly”. OP clearly had no idea what they were getting into and at this point I’d really recommend selling the business because the OP clearly does NOT want to be a CEO.

    2. Mental Lentil*

      As I’ve always said, it’s one thing to win the war. It’s another thing to keep the peace.

    3. SomebodyElse*

      I was going to post something similar. The OP has made some good decisions along the way.

      1. Identified a business idea that had potential
      2. Started that business and presumably got it running well enough to be able to afford to hire an employee
      3. Hired an employee who was not only competent but able to scale up the business
      4. Increased business to a point that enabled 3 more hires

      Now here’s where things went off the rails
      1. Delegated too much to Miranda and became too hands off
      2. Have not kept up on basic functions of the business (vendors, software) and I would suspect other very important things
      3. Conflated personal with private life.
      4. Conflated employees with friends.
      5. Made some shockingly unprofessional decisions with regard to Miranda and how you are treating her

      OP, you are going to have do some real soul searching to understand if you are cut out for running a business. You have been successful to this point, and that is probably down to luck, size (it’s still small and manageable), and I suspect a lot of hard work by Miranda.

      You can still turn this around, but you really have to be willing to do a 180 on almost everything you’ve done to get you this point. This includes; separating friends from employees, knowing on a daily basis how you are measuring to key performance indicators, (daily sales, profit, costs, risks, and opportunities), learning how your business actually operates from top to bottom (If you don’t know key things like how software works, who your vendors are, what are your critical operating dates (license, tax payments due, etc.), and how to manage people, you need to start learning now).

      You are really not in a position to make sweeping changes to your business right now (extra staff, demoting existing employees, expanding, etc.) until you have your arms around the rest of that stuff.

    4. emmelemm*

      This is a good point – the more a business grows and the more employees you have, the *more* responsibilities you have, not less!

  88. Out & About*

    This feels like one of those posts where you would expect to be reading it from Miranda’s perspective asking for help!

    1. MassMatt*

      This IS a fascinating flip-side to the letters we usually get. Generally it’s someone like Miranda writing in about her boss demoting her and feeling as though she’s being pushed out by boss’s new friend.

      It reminds me of the letter from the boss who admitted in her own letter that she bullied an excellent employee ostensibly because she “didn’t fit in” with the drinking culture (!) of her team, but really because of jealousy. The remarkable thing is that she posted responses in the comments which were initially combative, but then posted updates saying she’d been fired due to her own poor behavior, was getting help for her problems, and becoming a better person.

      I hope the OP here can read the advice and comments and learn from them, it will be hard, but here is a great opportunity to wake up and change how you are running your business.

      1. Batgirl*

        I’m hoping it’s unusual in a good way; like here we have a boss doing a typical mistake, but atypically they feel the need to check their instincts and get advice.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      And the response would be “your boss sucks and isn’t going to change so it’s time to start sending out resumes”

    3. Observer*

      It also reminds me of the one where the boss lost his best employee. That was bad, but in some ways this one is worse, because there the OP at least knew that they had lost a good employee. They just did not understand what they had done wrong.

      Here the OP does not even have that level of self awareness.

  89. SwampWitch*

    So you demoted the employee who knows how everything runs, gave the job to the person giving you gifts (loaning of expensive personal equipment like a car is a gift, running errands for you) and you admit you don’t know who does what in the company while one employee cries wolf?

    Gotta tell ya, I think Miranda’s going to quit and then Laura’s going to get bored and either start more trouble or quit. I just don’t understand these business owners who have no idea how things get done. Also, I recommend some growing-up classes if you don’t want to be put in the middle? What did you think was going to happen when you demote someone?

  90. LizB*

    I just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly. It sounds like what you really want is a life coach or personal assistant, and what you’ve got is an employee who’s manipulating the heck out of you and running your business into the ground. The past year has been unbelievably difficult for myriad reasons, so I can sympathize with gravitating towards someone who seems to be confident in their path and who helps you out of whatever jams you run into, but I fully agree with Alison that Laura is poison. If you want someone to help you and tell you what to do, find a therapist, find a business coach, hire a consultant — but for god’s sake, get rid of Laura before she gets you to push out the only person in your organization who appears to actually know anything about how to run it.

    1. cubone*

      I think there’s two options – either OP wants a PA, like you said, or frankly, I think it’s possible OP just wants an absence of conflict or difficulty. Even a PA/life coach who “tells you what to do” and “runs your life smoothly” won’t be able to get rid of the need for you to actively manage, engage, and set boundaries in your personal and work relationships.

  91. Mindy Mindy*

    This is one of those posts where I desperately hope the OP interacts with the comments.

    I’m so curious as to what OP does in this company? She doesn’t oversee the warehousing, IT, or admin things, and is unwilling to resolve employee conflicts. She also doesn’t seem to know Miranda and Laura’s roles well enough to provide clear-cut job responsibilities to Miranda, and wants for someone else to give her the answers to this dilemma. I mean this very kindly, but OP’s involvement really seems on-par with someone who owns shares in a company and has financial investment in it, but doesn’t actually work there.

    1. MassMatt*

      Perhaps OP does sales and interacts with customers? This seems a likely way for someone to start a business, with bookkeeping, dealing with vendors, etc as an afterthought.

      It’s fine for a business owner to outsource stuff they are not good at, just about every successful owner does as the business grows. But they still need to know who does what and whether they are doing a good job.

    2. Observer*

      This is one of those posts where I desperately hope the OP interacts with the comments.

      Not going to happen. I’m sure the OP wasn’t expecting the pile on they are getting. I sympathize, but they DO have it coming. Because I don’t know about the competence or lack thereof of Laura or Miranda, but the OP is just a nightmare boss at this point.

    3. Guin*

      Someone suggested maybe it was an Etsy craft-type thing. I think the OP makes hand-painted teapot candles, had a large volume of Etsy sales, and decided to “start a business.” Miranda probably buys the special teapot wax, the molds, the wicks, etc., and manages the payments/accounting side. Laura and her minions are in an ideal position to clean out the warehouse of all the teapot-candle supplies that Miranda buys and tracks.

  92. Apprentice*

    “I will tell you this with certainty: Laura is not trustworthy.”

    All I could think reading this question is that Laura seems to be positioning herself to take advantage of the OP.

    1. RC Rascal*

      This. I am concerned Laura is setting up to embezzle from the business and Miranda is the obstacle. Miranda handles the financials and presumably serves as accounting control? I uncomfortable with the campaign against Miranda and think Laura has N ulterior motive, especially in combination with how she is buttering up the OP.

      I did see this dynamic before at a previous business. I fired a salesman for poor performance; he had also started a campaign against the Accounting person who was. Long term employee. He was new and had similar complaints with accounting as Laura does with Miranda.

      Later he got caught embezzling from his next employer. He was trying to steal from us and Accounting was in his way.

  93. A Feast of Fools*

    Oof. As an auditor, my Spidey Sense went on high alert at hearing that Laura hired two friends to work with her in the warehouse (where, apparently, OP is pretty hands-off). Then Laura starts trashing the one person who actually does know the ins and outs of the business*.

    OP, have you checked your business bank accounts and inventory levels lately?

    *Holy cow, I’m almost breaking out in hives at the idea that the *owner of a tiny company* doesn’t know how to use the software that the company runs on. I understand that the CEO of my full-time job likely doesn’t know how to process things in SAP, but he knows how to read financial statements and hire enough people that there is a huge segregation of duties, leaving little room for fraud.

    I co-own a tiny business that has four employees and you can bet your britches that I know how to use all of our software programs.

    2. blackcatlady*

      Yea my spouse was an auditor in big firm for over 40 years. He has plenty of horror stories. Most begin with the owner saying I don’t know what I would do without trusty so-and-so. They know everything and run the place. It NEVER ends well.

    3. Florp*

      Me too. This letter has given me anxiety! My to do list for today is out the window, and I’m going through all of my operations right now, making sure I haven’t let something slide.

    4. Eldritch Office Worker*

      This combined with “I just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly” makes me wonder what the OP was under the impression running a business would entail.

      1. El l*

        Yeah. LOL.

        OP signed away, “I want someone to tell me what to do” the moment she took that bank loan.

    5. Urbanchic*

      Coming here to say this. You need a financial and inventory audit ASAP to make sure everything is accounted for. Why is Laura allowed to correct Miranda’s work (is it book keeping work?). Who is signing off on that correction, what documentation is there to justify that correction? As a business owner, protect your assets. Best case scenario Laura is just a pot-stirrer with a manipulative attitude. Worst case scenario there is diversion. Both scenarios likely result in a future without Laura. Even if Miranda quits too, you’re better off without Laura.

        1. Urbanchic*

          Thank you for adding this. I thought it was obvious, but I shouldn’t have! Yes, an external, third party with credentials to do such an audit is necessary.

    6. SwampWitch*

      This falls in line with a philosophy I gained right out of graduate school when one of my managers didn’t know how to lookup an order in our software. I found that out five days after our department was told we were being laid off. The manager in question was such a stickler and error-punisher that I was gobsmacked that she didn’t know how to use two of the most basic functions but was so rigid with errors in a software she didn’t even know how to work. My philosophy ever since has been I will NOT work for or under someone who doesn’t know how to do the basic functions of my job.

  94. A Pinch of Salt*

    Anyone else getting “Andy Bernard trying to suck up to Michael Scott and push Dwight Shrute out” vibes here?

  95. El l*

    I have no idea if Alison is right about Laura being a pot-stirrer, and Miranda being competent. I’m not there yet. But:

    OP sounds like the cliched owner on “Kitchen Nightmares,” who complains that they’re not accountable for what goes on in the kitchen of a restaurant.

    Here, they also have a really small shop, with a team who depend on each other to do their jobs. OP absolutely has to understand each person’s job in deep detail – enough to fix it if/when they screw up. Are Laura and/or Miranda good at their jobs? Are they costing OP business? She can’t say. Not knowing those questions is such a huge problem, even bigger than two quarreling employees.

    If OP can’t figure out for herself right now whether it’s Laura or it’s Miranda who’s costing her more money…I question whether the business can survive.

    1. RW*

      It reminds me of Kitchen Nightmares, too — especially the people who want to “own a restaurant” but they don’t want to do any of the work of managing a business; they just want to, like, have a piece of paper that proves they OWN a restaurant, so they can tell people about it, or give their friends a bottle of wine on the house.

      My thought with those people was always just, “Fine, then hire someone to run the restaurant and come in every other week to get drunk with your friends,” but reading this page has reminded me that the owners have money on the line, as well as legal liability, and they really ought to try to understand how the business operates.

  97. usually anon*

    Yet another example of why not to work for a nano-business. Owners are usually either all up in employees’ business to the detriment of getting work done, or absent for any of the hard stuff. There is always a favorite, until it’s time to ostracize the favorite for a new one.

  98. Queenie*

    Holy this post gave me flashbacks. OP for a second there I thought you were my old boss, this story is scarily familiar. I feel for Miranda, heck I was Miranda years ago. Op I am going to give it to you straight. You are a terrible boss and you are going to lose Miranda very quickly if you don’t smarten up. Unless you can provide concrete proof of why Miranda is actually a bad employee, you have alienated a longtime employee for absolutely nothing. Miranda not answering you after hours or on weekends but she did before? YOU DEMOTED HER FOR NO REASON. By the way, I hope you paid her for those after-hours calls she used to do. Being a remote employee does NOT mean she doesn’t care about the business, how dare Laura insinuates that. Let me be perfectly clear, you have fallen for a manipulative, conniving schemer. That’s exactly what Laura is, a schemer. She made herself invaluable to you on a personal level because she knew she couldn’t do it at a business level, then used that influence to worm her way deeper into the business. And you fell for it, hook line and sinker. I am so angry on Miranda’s behalf, you are a horrible manager, a horrible business owner, and a horrible person. I hope Miranda leaves and finds something better.

    1. Fran Fine*

      Let me be perfectly clear, you have fallen for a manipulative, conniving schemer. That’s exactly what Laura is, a schemer. She made herself invaluable to you on a personal level because she knew she couldn’t do it at a business level, then used that influence to worm her way deeper into the business.

      This is the exact conclusion I came to while reading the letter. Laura is a master schemer who didn’t do all of those seemingly nice, personal things for the OP out of the goodness of her heart, lol. She saw that the OP was completely checked out of the business end of her business (and that’s a whole other can of WTF) and saw an opportunity to ingratiate herself in the OP’s life under the guise of being helpful, probably with the end-game of snatching that company out from under the OP or at the very least, stealing from it. And OP’s just obliviously walking around thinking she’s got a new friend and personal assistant, lol.

      Nope. OP better keep her eye on that one.

    2. Batgirl*

      “She made herself invaluable to you on a personal level, because she knew she couldn’t do it at a business level”
      *Applause*

  99. Sal*

    I really like the ones where the problem is within the letter writer. You know? Just reading the letter and spotting the problematic assumptions, red flags, etc.–it feels like a word search or a hidden picture puzzle.

    LW, while it’s not technically impossible that Miranda is being a stick-in-the-mud pain and Laura is substantively right on some of the particulars, Laura’s behavior has been incredibly unprofessional and what you HAVE told us of what she’s said is so wrongheaded; that’s why the commentariat (without more substantive information on the earliest underlying disputes/conflicts) is almost uniformly siding with Miranda.

  100. I edit everything*

    If OP is serious about saving her business and figuring out what’s going on, she needs to be willing to do the work. That means having a long, in-depth conversation with Miranda. “I’ve realized that I’ve let this go on too long, and that I need to become more involved with my own business, learn how everyone works, and the best way to divide responsibilities.”
    Then ask Miranda for a review of the tasks she’s been doing for the last four years. What does she enjoy about her job? What would she like changed? Would she be willing to create documentation about sourcing and software? What’s her side of Laura’s story about mistakes?
    OP should find a class or tutorial on the software they use, so she at least has a passing understanding of it.
    She should shut down Laura’s pissing on Miranda as a person and ban that kind of trash talk.
    She should review what Miranda’s working on now, what “mistakes” she might be making, and talk to her about the changes Laura seems to want to impose. It’s likely she has a good reason for resisting them. It’s also possible she’s change averse and pushing back against Laura’s power plays.
    She should stop leaning on Laura in her personal life.
    She should respect everyone’s work hours and boundaries and create some for herself.
    In other words, she should start managing, controlling the conversations, and think about what’s best for her business, not her social life.

  101. LCH*

    So Miranda handled “handle administration, IT, and our books” and Laura and her friends physically work in the warehouse? I really wonder if the limits M was trying to place were limiting how much stealing or whatever L and friends were trying to get away with. Damn, get a hold on your own business and find out what’s actually going on there.

    1. HA2*

      Ohhh yeah. Definitely a possibility, that Miranda was running a tight enough ship that Laura couldn’t get away with something, so Laura just wanted to change that.

    2. Just Another Zebra*

      I had this thought, too. Miranda may have put some strict inventory measures in place to monitor the shipping company they previously used, and Laura couldn’t steal around them. So she’s pushing Miranda out.

  102. kgb*

    Good rule of thumb: If someone gives you a “she goes or I go” ultimatum, the person giving the ultimatum is the one who goes. The mere fact of giving an ultimatum proves that they’re controlling and manipulative. There might be edge cases where this is wrong, but it should be the foundation of any decision-making in situations like this.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I don’t actually agree with that! There are situations where it would be entirely reasonable to say, for example, “if you continue to employer a racist/harasser/tyrannical manager, I want to be up-front with you that I will leave.” Or even, “We’ve had many discussions about how Jane is making my job impossible to do, and I want to be transparent that I’m now at the point where I’m likely to leave over it if it’s not resolved fairly quickly.” That’s not manipulative or controlling; it’s just “here’s the info about where I’m at.”

      This just isn’t one of those.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        (Although I agree with you in garden variety interoffice squabbles where neither person is clearly right or where letting someone go over the thing the other person is upset about would be a wild overreaction.)

      2. kevin*

        Perhaps I’m being too optimistic, but I would expect most of those counterexamples to be resolved before it gets to the point of ultimatum. In a lot of cases, I think the reasonable employee would just leave without giving the ultimatum.

        1. Liz T*

          Yeah, because if the ultimatum is reasonable, than it shouldn’t have required an ultimatum–meaning the boss has shown themselves to be unreasonable.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I think you’re more likely to see it where the person explaining they’re ready to leave is a long-time, valued employee who doesn’t want to leave, and where the heads-up really might have an impact or is at least worth giving.

          1. Turanga Leela*

            I came close to giving an ultimatum in exactly this situation. I love my job, I’m a high performer, and my boss at the time wanted to interview an applicant who had sexually harassed my friend and former coworker. The boss knew the history but apparently thought it was no big deal.

            However, the boss valued me and my work. I let him know that I would not be comfortable working with this person, because he had a history of sexual harassment and I would be worried for myself and the other young women in the office. I didn’t say “it’s him or me” because I didn’t have to, but that was the strong implication.

        3. AnonForThis*

          My coworker physically attacked me. I immediately reported it to my boss, who said she was going to HR. We went on summer break (no work). Two weeks later, my boss wanted me and the coworker to sit down and talk about it. I said “no way; he hit me!” and forced it to HR. I told my boss “me or him.” I was not about to automatically leave my job because a male coworker hit me and my boss didn’t know how to manage. Nope.

          1. SimplytheBest*

            Similarly, I used to work for an organization where we had two coworkers who got into a physical altercation. One was let go, the other wasn’t. A year or so later, the one who wasn’t let go got fired (not related to the physical incident at all). A month or so later, the first coworker who did get fired applied for their old job which had just reopened. Due to promotions and other natural turnover, I was the only person still working in the office who had been there during the physical altercation besides the program director. When it was brought to my attention that they were thinking of bringing this coworker back, I immediately went to my boss and said if he was rehired, I would be leaving.

            He was not rehired.

    2. MassMatt*

      I disagree, it could be that they are controlling and manipulative, or it could be that they feel that they have been pushed to the brink by an intolerable situation. I agree that giving ultimatums is probably not the right way to go in that case, but I think we’ve certainly seen lots of letters here where people feel like they are at that point.

  103. twocents*

    I feel for OP because she sounds very overwhelmed but… Are you SURE you have a business? You don’t seem very aware of what your employees are supposed to do, what your procedures are, or how your systems work.

    You’ve handed over a LOT of control of your business to people that may not have your best interest in their mind. Even aside from this drama, you have got to figure out how your business works. You are extremely vulnerable to fraud right now.

  104. So they all rolled over and one fell out*

    There’s a typo in bullet 8: “her title was taken away and given to Miranda” should say “given to Laura”

  105. Liz T*

    “Miranda said that she felt my relationship with Laura was favoritism, which it isn’t. When I discussed this with Laura, she was so visibly upset.”

    Why on earth did you discuss this with Laura? What was the goal of that conversation?

    1. AKchic*

      Right? Why is LW discussing personnel discussions with *another* employee? That is completely unprofessional. It only strengthens the argument of favoritism (and personal bias).
      LW needs to rein it in. You cannot be besties with the people who depend on you to sign their paychecks. Laura has already figured out how to get perks from being the LW’s friend (hey, a cushy new promotion, that probably came with a raise, and she’s been there a year? Plus hiring a couple of her actual friends).

      1. Fran Fine*

        All of this. OP absolutely is showing favoritism and had no business discussing what Miranda said, presumably in confidence, to Laura. By doing so, the OP is contributing to that same toxic environment she claimed to be trying to get away from.

  106. TiredMama*

    This is such a weird line knowing that you are a small business owner…”I just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly.”

    1. cubone*

      I wrote this above but this line to me means that OP just doesn’t want to have to deal with ANY conflict or difficulty. Even a PA/life coach who “tells you what to do” and “runs your life smoothly” won’t be able to get rid of the need for you to actively manage, engage, and set boundaries in your personal and work relationships.

    2. Actual Vampire*

      Honestly it’s a weird line coming from any adult. I mean, it’s a relatable desire, but you have to know life doesn’t work that way! And anyone who tells you it does is selling something (or, you know, just taking stuff out of the warehouse when you aren’t looking).

  107. PolarVortex*

    OP, my comments come from a place of working in an environment very close to the one you have set up here.

    I worked for a small business that needed to hire some more employees. The owner was a bit scatterbrained about her business and relied on certain workers who were loud and extra friendly to her to make it run. And some of those employees forced out other employees who had been around for a long time. And it ultimately ruined things. (Business shut down a few years after I left.)

    The place was toxic even though the owner never realized it. The people the owner relied upon could do no evil because she depending on them. And they were family. And those of us who came in and put in our hours and worked hard were systematically screwed over again and again by the owner because of the words/needs of those Most Important Coworkers. To the point I was unsafe in the business much like Miranda and took the first excuse I could find to leave.

    I have such mixed feelings about that job, even years and years later now. I wanted that business to be successful, I liked the owner, but the people she deferred to made it impossible to work there.

    I’ve never told anyone about this story but your situation here tells me you need to hear about where that blindness led her: She made tiny female-presenting-at-that-time 16 year old PolarVortex drive home a strange adult man because that dude was a friend of one of those Most Important To Her Coworkers. And hey, we’re all family so it’s fine, he just really needs a ride and shouldn’t bike home at 9:30 at night! You may not be putting a 16 year old in a situation where they could’ve ended up dead in a ditch somewhere like my boss did, but I see you heading down that same path at an alarming rate.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Now see there’s a situation where you can say you feel unsafe. (I’m glad you’re okay!)

    2. Bagpuss*

      I feel so much for 16 year old you!
      (And am grateful for the boss I had when I first qualified, who explicitly said to me “You will get clients who tell you that [Boss] drives them home. And it’s it rue – often I do. That doesn’t mean that you have to. I don’t expect you to, you don’t have to have anyone in your car you’re not comfortable with and if that means every single person you meet has to walk home that’s fine by me. And if anyone decides to sack us because of that, I am 100% fine with that, too.” And he meant it, and did in fact sack a client who tried to complain about it.

      (This was when I was a brand new lawyer and doing a stint in the Criminal defense department, so it was pretty common that you were meeting someone at the police station and that they, shall we say, had not arrived with their own transport.
      I was very grateful that my boss explicitly set out that what he (Big, burly bloke with 20 years experience and in many cases, encyclopedic knowledge of the individuals past records) chose to do and what he expected me (Young, female, minimal experience) to do were two very different things., and that he was clear that it was about what I felt comfortable with, not about objective risk, which was probably very low. )

      1. PolarVortex*

        Your boss sounds like he really knew how to ensure his people felt safe, and could put himself in their shoes. I’m glad you had him at your back, even if it was low risk. I’ve been in enough crappy retail/food service situations with stalking/sexual harassment written off by management and coworkers that I can extra appreciate there are good people out there too.

  108. L*

    I’m confused. So you demoted someone but then didn’t change the job description? You demoted them and expect them to just keep doing the exact same job and keep going above and beyond by being available during time they’re not being paid? One it sounds like you don’t know your own business and rely on others to do it. And you are very susceptible to the office manipulators. The only reason you “know” she is doing a bad job is because someone tells you? After she apparently did just fine for years. Aside from the interpersonal stuff OP really needs to know the end to end operation of her small business. She sounds like she doesn’t have a clue what anyone does. One employee shouldn’t be able to cripple the business because they have all of the system knowledge

  109. MMMMMmmmmMMM*

    a TEN point rebuttal! Holy cow!

    Not to dogpile on the OP, but how are you running this business if you don’t know whose right or wrong even a little bit? What if Miranda was hit by a city bus? How would your company survive?

  110. John Smith*

    Well…. That response was a bollocking if I ever saw one! Remind me not to piss Alison off!! :)

  111. Chris*

    Ack! This one was hard to read. I don’t want to pile on the OP, but the lack of leadership management is the real problem here.

  112. glitter writer*

    I am absolutely imagining the letter Miranda would write, in this case.

    “Hi, Alison. I’ve been at my job for X years and received only positive feedback. However, my boss last year hired a new employee, they’ve become joined at the hip, my boss is hiring all this new employee’s friends, then I got demoted and I think I’m being pushed out even though I’m good at my job and none of it was a problem until this new employee was hired, what should I do?”

  113. Badasslady*

    I agree with all the comments – mostly it seems like OP doesn’t want to manage their own business and is putting their personal feelings over professionalism at work. I would also like to point out that regardless of the drama – demoting an employee just so you could promote another employee is wrong. You should only demote people based on their own job performance, not based on incentives you want to give someone else,

  114. Siege*

    To my mind, borrowing A CAR from your EMPLOYEE skates the line of ethical actions. I would say it crosses it, personally, but maybe I’m wrong. But … OP, you manage your personal life so poorly in terms of resources and planning and boundaries that when confronted with an unexpected crisis, you took the easy out of borrowing a car, which was loaned to you by someone who is otherwise demonstrating incredibly manipulative behavior. Now you’re doing exactly what she wants by using that as a metric to judge her performance, and Miranda’s, when it should be totally outside of any consideration of either employee’s work performance. That’s incredibly unfair.

    Personally, I would say you need to listen to the advice to manage your own business better (personally and professionally) and get Laura out of there as a separate action. It seems highly unlikely Miranda is the problem, since she ran your business for years without you knowing enough about it to know whether she was doing a bad, good, or stellar job, but even if she’s sourcing your products from Central Asian arms markets and they’re all made out of radioactive uranium, Laura is functioning as a highly effective gatekeeper and you don’t know what kind of job Miranda is doing, nor will you while Laura is there.

    Step up and manage. The next thing that’s going to happen is either that Miranda quits or that Laura starts actually interfering with Miranda’s job – now that she has Miranda’s title and permissions – and you don’t know enough about your own business to judge EITHER of your employees fairly.

    1. Batgirl*

      I mean, even if you felt it was an okay thing to do at the time, why would you list it in Laura’s favour here?

  115. Observer*

    OP, you have gotten a huge pile on here. Please take it seriously.

    Laura aside, you really, really need to rethink your attitude here. And I know I’m repeating a lot, but if you want your business to survive, you REALLY need to realize a couple of core things:

    1. While you want staff to basically get along with each other and to try to work out low level things on their own, the idea that it’s “unprofessional” for them to bring MAJOR issues and POLICY issues to you is what is “unprofessional”. It’s also destructive to your business. You are “in the middle” because this is YOUR BUSINESS.

    2. This is YOUR BUSINESS – *not* Miranda’s. So unless you want to pay her (or whoever replaces her) to be on call after hours, you don’t get to expect answer over the weekend or in the evenings. Of COURSE she “made you wait” the ~~gasp~~ “whole weekend” for an answer! She’s not working!

    3. You can’t have it both ways – either it’s personal or it’s not. You CANNOT realistically expect to make decisions which have a negative effect on someone because “it’s not personal” and then have the act as though the operation of the business “is personal”.

    4. Making someone who can work remotely come in to the office “just because” is going to cost you. Right now, Miranda is taking care of her work space. If you make someone come in to the office, you now have to provide a workable space for her (or her replacement). There IS a cost to that. What exactly are expecting to gain from that other than “Pleasing Laura”?

    5. If you want to own a business you have 2 choices. Either you hand it over to someone and walk away, and just take the profits when they show up. You hope that the person you hired is competent and honest, and you get your auditor in twice a year or so. That’s generally not a viable path, but it’s the only alternative to choice number 2.

    Choice #2 is to ACTUALLY RUN your business. That, at your size, includes knowing the basics of your core software; knowing the legal issues and having a lawyer and accountant on tap that talk TO YOU; understanding best practices and procedures; making policy decisions; and adjudicating between staff on occasion.

    1. Just Another Zebra*

      All of this, but particularly #2.

      OP has been so hands off that Miranda is basically running the business. OP, I’m not trying to be harsh when I ask this – how can you run a business without understanding of bookkeeping, sourcing, your own software? It truly sounds like Miranda has been making all the decisions and handling everything. Honest question – what do you do for your business?

  117. Sean*

    Spot on, as always. But man, I love it when Alison tees up on a letter writer and gives it a good whack. It reminds me of when Roger Ebert reaaaaaally HATED a movie. Just … *chef’s kiss.*

    1. cubone*

      “I am required to award stars to movies I review. This time, I refuse to do it. The star rating system is unsuited to this film. Is the movie good? Is it bad? Does it matter? It is what it is and occupies a world where the stars don’t shine.”
      -Roger Ebert on The Human Centipede

      1. cubone*

        “I am required to help letter writers with their problems. This time, I refuse to do it. Management advice is unsuited to this workplace. Is this employee bad? Is she good? Does it matter? It is what it is and occupies a world where a manager isn’t managing.”
        -Allison, on this letter, basically (i tried my best)

        1. LTL*

          Alison DID help the LW.

          I understand y’all are joking, but Alison and most of the commentators are coming from a place of good faith and wanting the LW to be successful. It’s tough love, not a roasting.

          1. cubone*

            yeah it was mostly just a joke about Roger Ebert’s reviews, but .. okay. I know she helped. I was thinking about the part where she said “I can’t unravel the whole thing in the space I have here, but you said you want someone to tell you what to do”, since what the letter writer actually asked was “should I fire Miranda” and the response (quite rightfully) doesn’t approach it in such a cut and dry way (except for that one line).

            I also didn’t feel that the first comment was gleefully celebrating a roasting. More like appreciating when an AAM response is perfectly on the nose and able to capture quite a few issues in concise terms. I certainly agree with you on the intent of most commenters and Alison (and.. myself?), so I don’t think it’s really fair to assess this as cruelty towards the LW?? Or delighting in someone getting a roasting? Neither of our comments “roast” the LW, just celebrate (and yes, joke about) the succinctness of Alison’s response in the grand scheme of all the letters that get posted here. I guess if any joke = roast, but I was just sharing something silly related to the comment and tied it back to the letter.

  118. Bookworm*

    With respect, OP, I think the last part of Alison’s response is it. You are not in a position to manage either one of these employees or at all. Your feelings are in the way. I do hope you find a way out of this but I would gently urge you to step back from the managing part (ie, hire an operations person, a chief of staff, etc. to distance yourself). Good luck.

  119. Yoyoyo*

    I so appreciate the answer to this one. I also want to add that “unsafe” seems to be becoming one of those words that has lost all meaning due to over/incorrect usage (similar to “narcissist” and “gaslighting”). If one of my employees tells me that another makes them feel unsafe they had better have a clear reason for that. I’m so sick of people throwing words around and diluting their meaning. Someone disagreeing with you isn’t gaslighting you, and someone (rightly) calling you out on something isn’t unsafe.

    1. Robin Ellacott*

      I thought that too! We had a horribly toxic staffer who used to call all kinds of things ‘bullying’ or ‘harassment’.

    4. Mona-Lisa Saperstein*

      Ugh, YES. “Gaslighting” has definitely lost all meaning, and the use of the term “unsafe” here is just absurd and manipulative.

    5. HereKittyKitty*

      Yeeeep. As a victim of domestic violence, it gets real insulting when people co-opt language that describes how we’re victimized to mean “that person is mean.”

      1. Yoyoyo*

        YES. I was gaslit for years and years by a parent and it has taken me over a decade of no contact and therapy to heal from it. I have almost never heard someone use it to describe the actual abuse technique, just someone communicating in a way they dislike, upsetting them, or disagreeing with them. It is insulting.

  120. Master Bean Counter*

    I’d bet good money that Laura is setting up to steal from the company and Miranda is getting in her way.
    OP if Miranda ends up leaving do not let Laura or any of her hires take over any accounting functions. Keep the separation of duties in place. It’s just good practice.

    1. rl09*

      I don’t know that we have enough info to know that…but if ANY of her employees were stealing from the company, the LW doesn’t know enough to even notice or prevent it from happening.

      1. Crazy Book Lady*

        OP, I hope you realize you’ve become a contender for Worst Boss of 2021. I really hope you can take the feedback and use it to spur reflection and professional growth.

    2. Liz T*

      I’m guessing Laura is more boisterous/incompetent/naive than outright evil mastermind…but theft is going to happen SOMEWHERE, if it’s not already happening.

    3. Florp*

      +1. Red flags that warehouse staff is stealing: You ordered 100 widgets, the packing slip says 100 widgets, but warehouse staff swears there were only 95 in the box, or that 5 were damaged, or whatever. The vendor invoices you for 100 and swears that’s what they sent. If this happens once, sure, things randomly go wrong. Happens repeatedly? And it’s the same person unpacking the boxes all the time? That’s a pattern that indicates theft.

      I hate to accuse someone I don’t know of theft, but I suspect that Laura has set herself up with a great opportunity to obfuscate her own misdeeds. She can unpack 100 widgets, put 5 in her pocket, blame Miranda for receiving 100 into the software when she should have only received 95, and then pick up LW’s dry cleaning. It’s like yelling “look over there” while you steal all the french fries.

      LW–are you tracking down these “mistakes?” Are you asking to see the packing slips, the boxes, the goods on the shelf, who counted, did they count every box? If a mistake really happened, where exactly did it occur? Did Laura accurately tell Miranda what was received or shipped out so that Miranda is working from good information? Do you do random physical inventory counts to see if what you have on the shelf matches your stock keeping records?

      We have straightforward procedures that involve different people counting and signing off on goods received before that info goes to data entry to be entered in our software. The more people involved, the less likely someone can cheat. When we have an unusual number of mistakes and more than half of them are not in our favor, I go live in the warehouse. I may say “gee, we’ve had a lot of mis-shipments, I guess I need to keep an eye on our vendors,” but really I’m there to make sure my own staff isn’t stealing. I ask a lot of questions, do the counting myself, whatever is necessary. Most of the time it IS genuine errors and disorganization rather than theft, but either way, it’s funny how receiving discrepancies go away when the boss is around.

    1. no phone calls, please*

      THIS.

      The worst part is that it isn’t based on outrageous circumstances like the airport ride and other horrible boss behavior! This is how the business is being run every single day. OMG. It’s so much worse than an extremely terrible one-off scenario!

  122. Mugsy*

    Oh. My. God. I am literally shedding tears of joy over this one. I was Miranda at an EXTREMELY toxic job! (So bad, that when my husband was asked how I like the new job I got after this one, he said, ‘well, she’s not crying every night, so that’s good!’). I wish someone had broken it down to my (no ex) boss like this.

    Long story short: My assistant decided she wanted my job and everything went downhill so fast my head spun. Almost all of this happened to me!!

    Ex: Assistant and her husband helped my boss and her family move. Later that week assistant got employee of the month while I had worked 7 weeks of six days a week. I went from a star employee to not being able to do anything right. And when the assistant did mess something up…it was because I didn’t train her correctly (long story, I did). Also got a call on a Sunday (when I was 9-5ish m-f) from the screaming boss. When I started to push back on hours and boundaries, I was told I wasn’t taking the job as seriously.

    That job was so devastating. I lost so much confidence in myself. It took over a year to love what I do again, thanks to a new job and a new boss who knew I had PTSD from the toxic place.

    OP: I couldn’t agree with Alison more! But if you do keep Miranda, you’re going to have a lot of work ahead of you regaining her trust. Also, learn the system to your own business!

    AAM crew: thank you for letting me vent. This post brought back so many terrible memories I thought I’d pushed down. Ugh.

  123. TotesMaGoats*

    OP-When Miranda leaves (and I do expect that to happen) you had better be prepared to offer her an unbiased and (if appropriate) glowing recommendation for her future job search. If I could put the meme in I would but in the words of Key and Peele

    You done messed up A-A-ron.

    You owe it to Miranda to support her when/if she leaves and to make sure that she knows you will support her. She’s been a great employee up to the point.

  124. 2cents*

    “I just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly.”

    LW, seems like you need a personal assistant – and one who’s not involved in running your company.

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      They want a personal assistant and a boss. How can someone who owns a company want someone to tell them how to run that company?

  125. I'm just here for the cats!*

    Holy cow batman! I just reread the letter and I can’t believe I missed this before:

    “Miranda” has been my remote employee on the other side of the state, about three hours away. ”
    “She and I spoke about her coming into the office three times a week for morale and she says she doesn’t want the commute and that nothing she does needs to be in the office.”

    OP you want Miranda to commute for 6 HOURS (3 hours one way) 3 days a week “For Morale” Are you fricken kidding???? If you want that you better pay her for gas and wear and tear on her car, and pay for road side assistance for her in case her car breaks down during her commute. Also, put her up in a hotel so she can do those 3 hours back to back within the same week so she doesn’t have to drive 6 hours each day.

    Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? How mean and unreasonable you are. If I were you, I would be begging Miranda to forgive you, give her the biggest raise you can think of, and hope that she doesn’t turn around and leave you.

    1. SJ*

      I started mentally replying to this letter and then got to this exact line and was like………. oh. yeah, no, this person cannot be reasoned with, there’s no point. 3 days a week! from 3 hours away! for MORALE!

      moral for whom?????? aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

      2. I'm just here for the cats!*

        I mean, I could maybe see an argument for like once a quarter or something, but not every week. And I still would put Miranda up in a hotel for the night and pay for her gas.

  126. Florp*

    Read Traction by Gino Wickman and The E Myth by Michael Gerber. Both have good practical advice (without a lot of business gibberish) for deciding what you want your business to be, figuring out how to run it, and putting the right people in the right places. You are not too small to be reading business books.

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      I don’t remember why I have a copy of The E-Myth but I do (I think it’s from my Realtor days? or I got it free for attending some seminar or other), and it’s one of the few business books I keep around no matter how many times I purge my bookshelves. I pull it out and re-read it to talk myself down whenever I start getting a wild hair about being my own boss.

    2. Name Required*

      “Traction” can be a helpful book, but Laura is absolutely NOT the right person in the right seat. Don’t look to the people you have now. It doesn’t matter whether Laura or Miranda were the right people at some time, this situation as ruined both of their potential and it’s because they are trying to fill in your leadership gap with their own priorities. You need to get clear on your vision, make connections with people outside of your business, and then rehire with a clear plan of action.

      1. Florp*

        Oh, spot on! That section of Traction helped me see that I had some wrong people in the right seat! I’m not convinced that LW knows what the seats should be, and they’ve got to get that figured out.

  127. Kate*

    OOoof. This one is rough. OP, I really hope you take Allison’s feedback to heart. Please do some soul-searching and come back with an update. People love a good redemption story! It’s not too late to salvage some of this (although you may already have lost Miranda). Good luck.

  128. Eileen*

    Man oh man do I want an update from this one. Holy blorp.

    Miranda may have been coasting for a while, and Laura’s presence showed some glaring holes in Miranda’s skillset. Having those gaps brought to sunlight may be making Miranda really upset.

    But this OP has basically taken a hands off approach to the issues Miranda and Laura are dealing with, and when it is your name on the door you just don’t have that luxury. If Miranda and/or Laura were hit by a bus tomorrow, how would the OP run her shop? How would she know how to pay her vendors?

    The OP needs to step up a lot here.

    1. CoveredInBees*

      If OP has been this hands off for years, Miranda might not have even known she was making mistakes. This is assuming that Laura’s report is true.

      1. Observer*

        The problem is that to some extent it does not even matter if Miranda has been making mistakes. Because the OP is STILL handling it all wrong. They are still refusing to manage, expecting all sorts of extras from Miranda, refusing to figure out what ACTUALLY needs to happen, and taking Laura at her word when she’s shown that she really doesn’t have anything to back herself up with.

        1. TrackingCookieMonster*

          This. Since OP does not appear to fully understand how her business functions, she can’t fully determine how many mistakes Miranda was/is actually making. So she can’t actually know how honest Laura is being in her assessment of Miranda. Even if you didn’t have the promotion/demotion and the ultimatum, that’s a bad situation.

  130. wolfmama*

    OP – please, please, talk with a small business lawyer who can assess the situation, help you develop appropriate policies, internal controls, and job descriptions, review your operating documents, and make sure everything is getting squared away appropriately. You need someone who is not Laura to take a close look at the situation on behalf of the actual business before things spiral further out of control. Look for flat-fee pricing and don’t ask Laura for recommendations!!!

  131. AKchic*

    I can guarantee that Miranda has been looking for a job very hard ever since the demotion. She was polishing up that resume and passively looking prior to that, but the demotion, oh, that was the final straw for her.
    Miranda has kept your business running smoothly for four years. She was a great employee. Then you hired Laura and yeah… other people have hit the highlights. Favoritism, the set-up for embezzlement, the way you’re not really running your business but letting others run it for you (and essentially checking out and not even verifying things). The Laura/Miranda situation is being brushed off as petty girl drama in your mind, which is misogynistic. Here Miranda is, trying to protect you and your business as she’s always done, and you demote her and listen to someone who has been love-bombing you.

    You can’t be true friends with someone you pay. I am really trying not to sound mean here, but right now, it is hard when you are actively working against yourself and so badly need a wake-up call.

    1. TrackingCookieMonster*

      Yeah, if I were Miranda, I might not have even waited until the call was over before opening up job sites in a browser window.

    2. Lacey*

      Yes, I hope Miranda is able to put in her notice tomorrow and work somewhere that appreciates her.

  132. Condoms From a Satchel*

    Can I just say that I love the fact the first “you may also like” is the boss who wouldn’t give his employee time off for her own graduation!
    Both that LW and this one are so far off of normal is amazing to wonder at how they arrived at the place.

  133. WellRed*

    OP, if you’ve managed to get through reading these comments, I think this is fixable if you are willing to take a hard look at the advice, the business, and whether you have what it takes to run a business (it’s not for everyone!) I’m going to go ahead and say we’d all love an update on this!

    1. banoffee pie*

      it will be hard work for OP reading all these comments :( maybe best if she doesn’t…
      Laura’s machiavellian tactics have been very effective on the OP so far, and might have already pushed Miranda out, so OP might have to hire some new ppl. I feel for Miranda, she must feel awful. It’s like in school when somebody “stole” your best friend

    2. TrackingCookieMonster*

      Yep. When you say you’ve “left a lot of toxic jobs” that means you either have horribly bad luck or you were a bigger contributor to the toxicity than you believe.

      1. TyphoidMary*

        Really? I mean I’m not saying it’s a red flag, but at least with the U.S.’s poor labor protections, is it really hard to imagine that a large percentage of workplaces or abusive or toxic? Especially if you are a member of a marginalized community?

        It’s not that I think you’re wrong, necessarily, but maybe you’ve hit a nerve for me, since I’ve had to leave quite a number of transphobic organizations.

    3. The Prettiest Curse*

      Yup. The more I think about this letter, the more I think that the OP’s idea of workplace norms was seriously and permanently messed up by their previous toxic workplaces. And if that’s the case, they shouldn’t be running a business, both for their own sake and the sake of their employees.

  135. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk-ox*

    Yikes.

    I’m tempted to leave it at that, but I have other thoughts as well. OP, I’ll be honest, I was a little skeptical when you said that you’d never noticed an issue with Miranda’s work prior to Laura arriving. Did Laura explain what the issues were specifically? Do you know if they’re actually issues or a matter of “this is how I did it at my last company”? Because I’ve worked with someone before who was overbearing about “how they did it at Company X” and I often wanted to say, “Well, we’re not Company X and that won’t work here!”

    It’s one thing if the issues are bucking industry standards or if she’s providing you with inaccurate data, but I do wonder what Laura’s interpretation of Miranda doing bad work actually means.

    Also, I’ve been a Miranda (in some regards) and, let me tell you, being treated the way it sounds like she’s being treated will absolutely kill any drive she has to do anything other than a passable job. I went from being my manager’s rockstar to her pitting my newly hired coworkers against me before she blissfully retired (this was after she stopped giving me projects for no stated reason and treated me less than fairly — and I assure you this wasn’t deserved. It all related to her need to never be corrected in any way, even on projects she didn’t know much about, and her sudden flip to micromanaging in a way that was utterly demoralizing and had nothing to do with performance. It’s taken me nearly two years to completely bounce back from that and get confidence in my work back), and since there was one person in the group who would stir stuff up for no reason, I ended up being shunned by all but one person on my team. Had we not had a new manager come on and shift some stuff around, I would have been out of there SO fast once I realized what was going on.

    I know you’re not sitting your employees down and talking crap about Miranda, but it sounds like you don’t seem to mind that it’s going on. And showing favoritism toward Laura only encourages this sort of thing. She’s essentially being rewarded for turning you against an employee in part by doing you favors. It’s incredibly dysfunctional.

    And Alison is right: Laura sounds like a snake. It’s one thing to be frustrated when someone else doesn’t get their work done, but it sounds like Laura knows she has your ear and is trying to poison you against Miranda as a person on top of everything else. Not to be harsh, but everything you’ve written makes me wonder if you’re in a place where you can properly manage people. It doesn’t sound like it’s something you should be doing, at least not right now.

    1. Sparkles McFadden*

      It sounds to me as if Laura is saying “Miranda made another seventeen mistakes today, but don’t worry. I fixed them all.” Since the OP knows nothing about the software (and the business), she would just take Laura’s word for that.

  136. Llama face!*

    OP, I literally read two sentences in and said out loud, “Oh no! Laura is toxic!” and everything you wrote after that just confirmed my initial impression. Laura sounds incredibly manuipulative and seems to be (successfully) trying to destroy Miranda in her bid for control of your workplace.

    I admit I may be seeing this through a personal experience filter because I ran into people who were like Laura in my own life many years ago. They would pick someone to favour, isolate them by convincing them they were the only ones who could be relied in- which included destroying any existing friendships that person had (I was the existing friendship, aka the Miranda, in the situation), and then, once that person was fully dependent on them and under their control, they’d start looking for a new victim and dump the old one. Your toxic employee may not go that far- she may just want to rule your warehouse- but the dynamic seems equally harmful to everyone around her.

  137. Caz*

    When OP says she asked Miranda to come in to the office 3 x per week “for morale”, I wonder whose morale she is thinking of. Miranda lives 3 hours away – presumably thats 3 hours one way – so does she think being in a car for 6 hours plus the office for 8 is going to help her morale? Or perhaps renting a room nearby having recently been demoted? More power to Miranda for having the self-belief to work to rule rather than giving and giving when it has gained her nothing, to ask for a clear description of what her job is after the job title was changed, and generally for being willing to speak up against what she sees is wrong – whether or not she expects that to effect changes in the workplace.
    OP, there is an old adage – when someone gives you a “them or me” ultimatum, choose the person who is *not* giving you an ultimatum. I feel like it applies here.

    1. L*

      Yeah demoted and now expected to spend 18 probably unpaid hours in her car. Definitely not Miranda’s morale she’s concerned with

  138. HR Exec Popping In*

    I didn’t even need to read the letter to know that an employee who makes a threat of “it is her or me” is in the wrong. That is trying to manipulate and bully your boss. As a generally rule, those are not traits of a good employee – ever! And I will accept that offer every single day of the week. A team member doesn’t get to tell you who they work for or with.

    1. Brownie*

      Apart from everything else in the letter that’s what instantly made me go “Whoa, time to do a complete and full evaluation of staff/management/relationships.” That’s manipulation tactics and the biggest of red flags that the employee and relationships surrounding them need fast and thorough investigating. That kind of threat doesn’t happen unless the employee thinks they already have enough power to force their boss to do things, either under the threat of ruining the business (what would happen if Laura quit and took her friends with her?) or by withdrawing support from their non-business relationship.

      OP, I’d be locking down Laura’s access to anything critical related to the business ASAP and making backups of all accounting/financial data, contracts, and everything else. Make sure you have insurance on your warehouse that covers acts of employees/ex-employees too. If she’s making the “me or her” threat then be prepared for her to try and wreck the business when she leaves because that’s what manipulators and bullies do.

  139. Slipping The Leash*

    OP, I hate to pile on here….actually that’s a lie. I’m totally happy to pile on because you really need to hear it. You are a very good candidate for Alison’s 2021 Worst Boss list. To my knowledge, all previous nominees were the subjects of letters, not the writers. So…congrats?

      1. CoveredInBees*

        Correct and I agree with her reasoning for that policy (it would discourage people from writing in). But if there was a category for, “Yes, there’s a problem and that problem is you.” I’d nominate them.

    2. T minus now*

      I thought the boss that wouldn’t let their best worker go to their own college graduation and the boss who wouldn’t let their worker have a day off for their birthday because it was on a leap year were nominated.

  140. OMFG*

    Unsafe- how many hours drive away? This is ridiculous. I am a small business owner and have hired toxic employees set on stealing from me. I fired them within weeks. You need to clean house, apologize to Miranda, and perhaps sell the business as you are too clueless or lacking in motivation to own it.

    1. So they all rolled over and one fell out*

      “I feel unsafe” and “she should move closer and come into the office like the rest of us” simply do not fit together in any rational way.

      1. Fran Fine*

        Not at all, which is exactly why OP should be side-eyeing Laura right now. The stuff she says doesn’t make any sense.

      2. Observer*

        Unless what she means “I feel unsafe in my job as long as I can’t bully her into submission.”

        Note that Laura complains that she feels “unsafe” because ” Miranda was so limiting and negative”. It’s very easy to see this “I feel unsafe because Miranda doesn’t like the garbage I’m pulling on her. I’ll feel MICH safer when she’s exhausted and I can bully her into submission or into quitting.”

      1. Lacey*

        Yes. I hate it, because of course some people are legitimately in unsafe situations and need to be able to say so, but almost any time I’ve heard someone describe a relationship as unsafe it has been someone manipulating the people around them so they can have the upper hand in some way.

      2. Robin Ellacott*

        Same. And Laura clearly (well, explicitly) wants Miranda gone, so if Miranda had done anything actually threatening there is no chance Laura wouldn’t be telling that specific story with full voice and gestures.

        But here we have someone stating their feelings as data, which always makes me suspicious.

    3. Batgirl*

      People can be unsafe at a distance, like you can be verbally harassed or subject to racial or sexual abuse. I can’t believe OP fell for “Being rightly called out on my brown-nosing” as an example of being unsafe though. That’s bananas.

      1. Observer*

        Sure, someone can be unsafe at a distance. But the solution to that is NOT to ask them to come into the office where they can from eg making racist comments to screaming them in your face…

        Which is all the more reason why your last line is soooo on point!

  141. Daisy-dog*

    On this point: “Laura had a good point the other day that you’d have to be abysmal at your job to cause problems when you’re not there in person.”

    Alison did touch on this already, but I wanted to point out something else. I would say the causal relationship is reversed. Because she is not there in person and not involved in this conversation, there is a problem. Does she know what is happening? She’s probably just working like normal and you should just call her and work out the issue together. It’s the lack of communication that is the cause.

    1. Meep*

      I work with a Laura. My very first conversation with her ever she made it clear that once a person crossed her, they were dead to her. It was such a odd power move to play on an intern who had been there all of two weeks, looking back at it.

      Laura also had nothing nice to say about anyone when talking privately. She would speak favorably about me in front of people, but I knew she was trash-talking me behind my back. She also decided she didn’t like this guy name “Karl” and wanted him out. She would always tell me how he looked down on me and thought of me as this meek little thing he could control. (Projection, I now know.) She was managing him, but the way she did it was to make me the bad guy and give her orders through me – which he didn’t like because sexism… I had no power or authority over him, though. I couldn’t direct Karl and everything I did was seen as “suggestion but not really.” When she finally was able to fire him she framed it as a “me or him” situation where he needed to be fired or I would quit. I honestly just wanted him managed and he wanted that too.

      She tried the same thing later with me! She tried to get me fired to free up a raise for herself! It didn’t work and my new manager saved me. So when that didn’t work, she tried to tell me how the new guy “Andrew” wanted to be my manager and I didn’t “really” want that. I just said, actually I would and moved on this time. lol.

      Point is, I know Laura and I agree. Miranda isn’t there to defend herself so Laura can make up whatever story she wants and sells it like mine did with me, Karl, and Andrew, and will do with others after.

  142. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk-ox*

    Also, not to pile on, but it’s not unprofessional to ask the person who manages you what your job description is when there’s been this much change. You’re hired several new people and demoted Miranda — it sounds like without real reason, so she may not even know what you weren’t happy with her doing. Wanting to know if responsibilities have changed makes sense.

    Heck, I probably talk to my boss once a quarter to reprioritize projects and find out if I should actually be working on certain things. That is in part because my position at my org is somewhat unique, but I just figure I’d much rather know what he wants me to work on rather than spin my wheels focusing on something else.

    Did you give Miranda a clear outline of her new duties when she was demoted? Did you leave that to Laura? Because I also would loop my boss in if someone who I knew was sabotaging me was telling me what my tasks were supposed to be, just so everyone was on the same page.

    1. Lacey*

      It’s weird how many bosses think people should just know what their job description is after it’s been changed. A former coworker kept getting moved around in the department and each time she moved she would ask for a job description, but the department head would refuse and say it was obvious!

      1. pamela voorhees*

        I feel like “you should just know what your job description is” often translates to “I have a vague idea of what I want you to do, but can’t clearly define it, and therefore when you ask and make me uncomfortable about this, I will turn it back on you.”

        1. onco fonco*

          Spot on. LW doesn’t want to have to tell Miranda exactly what her role is because LW doesn’t *know*. She’s used to Miranda just making stuff happen because Miranda carried the business for four years until Laura decided things would be otherwise. Unfortunately Laura cannot and will not do what Miranda has been doing, and Miranda is quite rightly not sinking every minute of her life into a business that doesn’t value her.

  143. MuseumChick*

    OP, I think you need to do two things to start unraveling this mess: 1) Remove personal feelings from all of this. Ityou refer to Laura as a friend. It is virtually impossible to objectively manage and evaluate a friend when you are their manager. You are the BOSS, which means when two employees don’t see eye to eye you have to make the call that is in the best interest of the company. You don’t get to be not in the middle. 2) Get your head back into your business. You need to know the processes, the software, everything. That is the only way you will be able to fairly evaluate these suggestions.

    Your company sounds like it as an almost clique-y, sorority-type culture. Your other employees can’t get along with Mirandia unless she drives three+ hours multiple times a week? You hired her as a remote worker and unless YOU (not your employees) think her role needs to be on site that is very unfair to her. Being the boss means making choice and decisions that are can be unpopular and letting your staff know they must still behave professionally.

  144. Robin Ellacott*

    Oh dear. I agree that Laura is playing power games, either with some kind of a plot or just instinctively, and Miranda is probably just trying to do her job without much direction.

    LW is in over her head and I have some sympathy for how overwhelming the current situation is and how that may have happened gradually. But I feel terribly, terribly sorry for Miranda, who even if she HAD been making errors, seems to have had little oversight or guidance.

    At this point I’d suggest the LW brings in some kind of consultant to investigate the processes, policies, and job descriptions in the company, follow their recommendations, and then learn it all thoroughly themself. It’s so tangled up with the PEOPLE and their interpersonal relationships that the business stuff is obscured. If anything it should be the opposite, and probably needs fresh eyes to untangle it all and build better systems.

    I doubt Laura would survive this process as an employee, which is hard, but that’s business.

    1. Just Another Zebra*

      I think this is the best actionable advice I’ve seen. OP, you are too invested in the wrong parts of this – you’re choosing the people over the business. Bring in someone from outside the company who can offer a fair assessment of what is going on. Use that info to make an educated decision. And then really consider if owning a business is right for you.

      One tip, though – don’t get your consultant recommendation from Laura.

      1. Anomalous*

        There are companies which specialize in Human Resources, outsourced from small companies. My wife used one such firm in her business and it worked out great. Her company wasn’t/isn’t big enough to just even one HR person, but she still gets professional HR help. This sort of company might at least be able to advise where an appropriate consultant can be found.

  145. CoveredInBees*

    “I just want someone to tell me what to do and help me run my life smoothly.” As much as I (and many people) often feel like this, that someone cannot be your staff. They can be a therapist, life coach, *personal assistant*, or something along those lines but you need to extricate your personal life from work, especially when you’re the boss.

  146. Daphne Moon, Seattle*

    OP: you don’t mention anything at all about salary, and how Miranda’s and Laura’s have changed since Laura was hired. I have a feeling there’s a story there.
    Laura has played you like a violin. She ingratiated herself to you through personal favors, made herself seem indispensable and devoted to your interests, and then used the trust you have in her to push out Miranda. She is using you.

  147. Jennifer Strange*

    When I read the headline and the first few sentences, I definitely thought Miranda was going to be the one making the ultimatum. The fact that it was Laura is a bit shocking considering how long each of them has been there. Not that a person who has been at an org for four years has more of a right to push for something than someone who has been there for one year, but after one year I definitely don’t think you’re going to have the capital to make that sort of ultimatum barring an extreme situation (i.e. sexism, racism, homophobia, etc.)

    OP, I’ll be honest: I don’t think you’re cut out to run your own business. To be clear lots of folks aren’t (myself included), but right now you’re not really shaping this business for the better. Without knowing the ins and outs of running a small business, I suggest you find someone who can take over as the manager (it doesn’t have to be Miranda or Laura, it could be someone completely new!) and take a step back and just serve as a shareholder of sorts. Because right now this business needs a manager.

  148. Meep*

    LW lost me when she demoted Miranda and expected her to work on the weekends. Yeah, no. She is not going to go above and beyond because you have proven that you are willing to base jobs/salary on who let you borrow their car. Not by how capable they are. And the fact Laura cannot do parts of this new job proves she is not qualified. Miranda tried telling this but you were too stubborn to listen and now she is proving it to you but only doing her job. Also, the BS about not updating her job description is horrible. She is asking because you limited the scope of her job and DEMOTED her. You are seriously expecting her to do as much as her old job entailed, why?

    LW sounds like a nightmare of a boss, tbh.

    1. ShakenNotStirred*

      I wonder if OP realizes how screwed she’d be if Miranda just up and left. I doubt she’s going to be worried about burning this particular bridge.

  149. Ozzie*

    Oh boy, this gave me so much anxiety reading it. If I were Miranda, I would have jumped ship at the demotion, if not before that. OP is lucky to still have Miranda around at all and to have not lost all that institutional knowledge.

    This smells only of an employee trying to push someone out – made easier by the fact that the manager hired her friends, and doesn’t see how or why that would do more to curry favor for Laura and hate for Miranda….

    Good on Miranda for drawing boundaries after getting demoted, not answering work emails after hours, etc. She at least deserves that. (but honestly, she deserves a sterling recommendation on her next job application, which I hope she is already working on sending out)

    OP, you gotta sort this out. You can’t just tell your employees to figure it out amongst themselves, know what to do, and just take one person at their word that things are right/wrong. Your job is to know your business, know your employees, and know what you’re doing – and what they’re doing. You’ve surrendered all responsibility for your own business here.

  150. TrackingCookieMonster*

    Wow. What a complete mess. LW has basically failed every single aspect of managing employees as a business owner.
    They definitely let themselves get played by Laura. If I was Miranda, I’d be angry, too.
    Allison’s right, LW needs to, at minimum, call Laura on her ultimatum. Somehow I bet she wouldn’t actually do it. In truth, they should probably fire Laura, because someone issuing ultimatums over interpersonal conflict is going to be a drama black hole in the long term (and honestly is already). LW should would prepare to lose Miranda over this, even if those things are done. I know if I were in Miranda’s shoes, I would have started job searching the moment I left the meeting.
    And LW needs to learn how to actually run a business. Bring in a consultant. Or see if their area has a small business development center or small business management program they can take classes at. Because what they’re doing right now is not sustainable.

  151. RJ*

    LW, have you ever seen All About Eve? Laura is your Eve. She is not your friend. She is a working parasite. Please take a few steps, read Alison and the commenter’s excellent advise and reconfigure your thoughts to see everything from the perspective of a boss.

  152. The Crowening*

    Regardless of what happens with OP and Laura, I hope Miranda finds a good gig with an employer who is able to see, understand AND VALUE her contributions. She does not have to continue working in this workplace, which apparently is run via popularity contest.

    OP, it is not Laura’s job to run your life and be a supportive buddy, therefore it is ludicrous to penalize Miranda for NOT running your life or not being a supportive buddy.

    And you need to know how your software works.

  153. NotSoPerfectAdmin*

    Allison did a great job at breaking down things. But I just want to add something I noticed:

    Early in the letter it said that Miranda lives across state, 3 hours away. And then later on LW mentions that she asked her to come in office 3 days a week to boost morale.

    To me this just ultimately shows how unreasonable this whole situation is.

    OP, I hope you take a careful look at your business.

    2. WellRed*

      Who’s morale did she think it would boost? Certainly not Miranda’s and since the Gang of 3 seems determined to dislike her, I don’t see them feeling boosted either.

  154. Lacey*

    This letter reminds me SO much of a previous employer. It was a small business when I started and it worked fine. But, the owner had NO idea how to manage things and felt very strongly that as we were all adults we should just be able to figure it out.

    That worked for a while – but part of what made it work was that the owner knew how every part of the company worked. As soon as it got big enough that he couldn’t have expertise in every part of it – things started to crumble.

    And he was just amazingly BLIND to who the actual trouble makers were. If he liked them, he took their word for it. When it hit a breaking point, about a third of the company left in under a year.

    1. ShakenNotStirred*

      I’d be surprised if Miranda isn’t already on her way out of her own accord. Being treated like that after essentially running a business for 4 years is beyond the pall. I hope she doesn’t leave any documentation on how to do her job either.

  156. Anonymous Koala*

    OP, I realize you don’t know much about core parts of running your business (which is whole other thing, as other commenters have said) but is your business actually profitable? Have you looked at the numbers, and especially, looked at the numbers before and after Laura and her gang were hired? Laura’s actions here reek of opportunism and I’m a little worried for your financial well-being, especially since you seem to have such a hard time drawing reasonable boundaries with Laura. Please get an independent auditor in to take a look at your business. And if you can manage it, management training might do you a world of good.

    1. WellRed*

      I wondered about whether she needed to hire because she’d already decided to bring that piece in house or whether that came from Laura.

      1. Siege*

        The cold reality is that Laura is gunning for the entire business. She’s halfway to her first step, getting Miranda out of the way. After that, LW, she’s coming for your job. Laura is making changes for reasons you haven’t specified, but you’re going along with them. You REALLY need to know your own business’s numbers before and after Laura, and you need them now.

  157. feral fairy*

    Good grief.
    This strikes me as a letter where the LW hasn’t read this blog before and found it through a google search. It reminds me of the disastrous letter from the manager who got fired for creating an exclusive (and literally hostile) work environment because she decided that a direct report didn’t fit in and felt threatened by her. If I recall correctly, I think the LW of that one said at some point that they thought that because the blog was called Ask a Manager that Allison would take the manager’s side.

    This whole situation is a mess but the part of this letter where my jaw dropped was when Miranda got demoted and had the audacity to…ask for an updated job description- a completely reasonable request, especially considering that Laura will be taking over some of her duties. But the fact that LW got flustered and defensive about being asked for an updated job description gives more evidence of the LW’s obliviousness to how their very small business operates. Based on the other details in this letter, it’s clear the LW doesn’t really know what Miranda does on a day-to-day basis at all. Like others have pointed out, if Miranda left or something happened to her, this company would be completely screwed.

    The LW talks about how grateful she is for Laura’s help in her personal life and admits to favoring her over Miranda as a result. Beyond being unethical and bad management, it doesn’t make sense to me why she doesn’t extend that level of appreciation to Miranda who has ostensibly allowed this company to function for 4 years. The issue of loyalty comes up a lot on this website in letters and comments because bosses and managers often expect their employees to be loyal to them when they barely reciprocate. This letter is a perfect example of an employee whose 4 years of loyalty and dedication mean very little to her employer.

    1. feral fairy*

      I forgot to add this to my comment but if the LW is intent on running this business and becoming a competent manager, I’d implore her to hire a reputable coach to help her develop better habits and a sense of responsibility.
      There are also other types of jobs the LW can explore where they can “be their own boss” without having to manage other staff.

    3. Observer*

      Yes. The thing with that letter writer is that she did get fired. And it was a big enough shock to her that she actually started listening to what Alison and the commenters were saying. Enough that she actually stated doing some serious thinking and went into therapy.

      This OP probably doesn’t need therapy, but a good business coach might be useful to figure out IF they even should be running a business, and if so HOW to do so in a reasonable fashion.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        The lament about needing someone to run their life tells me that this letter writer absolutely needs therapy.

  158. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    Doubt OP will read down this far but –

    – there’s a thing called the sunk cost fallacy. You’ve (I’m assuming) spent a lot of your own resources to set this business up originally and it may feel like you *can’t* admit when you’re failing because that would negate all the time/money you put it into it.

    But, it’s beneficial to have that skill of being able to know when something just isn’t working. In this case it’s your desires to have a friendly workplace that you don’t need to worry about running.

    ‘I was wrong. I need to do better’ is something I nearly got tattooed on me because gods I have some absolute effed up stuff in my past. As someone put it earlier – you can’t be the boss AND want no responsibility. One of those has to give.

    2. Nanani*

      Actually since OP doesn’t mention financials at all, but DOES mention wanting camaraderie, I suspect this whole business is a vanity project for a bored wealthy person.
      Maybe OP has a trust fund or that husband with the car that broke down once has a very high income or they found a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow – but I am pretty sure they are not raking in cash from this business.

      OP, if this is accurate, should fold the business, provide GLOWING references for Miranda for the rest of time, and go join a country club or something instead of pretending to be a business owner.

  159. LL*

    Wow. Wow wow wow. OP, if you want to run it own business you actually have to, you know, RUN THE BUSINESS. You’re shirking or responsibility as the owner and manager and being extremely unprofessional. If I were her, I would be looking to leave.

  160. Red red rose*

    I think this story could be a cautionary tale for being a remote employee when others are onsite. I think Miranda is at a serious disadvantage to Laura, despite having much longer tenure, because she’s not there to defend herself in person. While the OP comes across as unusually naive and easily manipulated in this letter, many managers / bosses could be influenced to a degree by somebody who seems very confident, kind and charismatic in person (Laura) but might actually be quite toxic.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      This is a good point. This LW is so unreasonable I hate to offer it up as how a functional office might operate, but it definitely lives on the *extreme* end of the spectrum as an example of the capital you may lose if you stay remote.

  161. Not That Kind of Lawyer*

    My uncle owned a small fast-food chicken shop – not a chain. He hired a cook and hired family to work the front and handle accounting. He then proceeded to peace out and only show up at the end of the day to count our tills and take some cash to get him through the next day. I always wondered how the shop never went under, but later learned the recipe was developed by him and my grandfather. He also knew our daily inventory and the expected profits based on what was sold. He was pretty much absent, but he knew every part of his business and was actually keeping tabs. He would probably still be in business today if Katrina had not destroyed his shop (and if all us nieces and nephews hadn’t grown out of working for him)

    1. Not That Kind of Lawyer*

      Edit to add
      My uncle would have known if something were off, even though he spent most days doing who knows what who knows where. OP I suggest you hire an auditor or consultant to give you an independent evaluation and help you become more familiar with your company.

      1. Observer*

        OP I suggest you hire an auditor or consultant to give you an independent evaluation and help you become more familiar with your company.

        I agree with this. At this point, there is a mess, and the only way you’re going to find out the whole story is an auditor.

  162. Empress Matilda*

    Ouch, OP – what a mess this all is. I expect some of the comments here will be difficult to read, and whatever you do next will likely be difficult as well.

    Once this is all settled, I hope you can find a way to take a good long vacation – really step back from the store as much as you can, and try to get a fresh perspective. It’s a cliché, but self-care really is the most important thing – you can’t run a business when you’re stressed out and second-guessing yourself all the time.

    Good luck with everything, and I’d love an update at some point!

  163. CommanderBanana*

    It’s pretty rare for someone to nominate themselves for Worst Boss of the Year, but here we are.

  165. ChemistryChick*

    Something that really stuck out to me, OP, is that you never actually discussed any of these issues with Miranda before demoting her. You just…gave her title to Laura without any explanation. If that happened to me, I would be doing the same thing Miranda did; she’s rightfully pulling back from the things that fell under her previous title. She’s also probably feeling hurt and resentful about that, and that’s a perfectly reasonable reaction to the way you’ve treated a long time employee with no previous record of wrong doing.

    Please take Alison’s advice to heart. It’s spot on.

  166. MMB*

    OP, One of the first things that you need to do is familiarize yourself with every aspect of your business and that includes software and procurement. I’m not even going to touch all of the inter-personal drama. bare minimum, t’s your business, you need to know how it operates.

  167. ShakenNotStirred*

    This letter oozes the toxicity of a poorly run small business. I hope Miranda is looking for a new job, no one deserves to be treated like this at work.

  168. Mental Lentil*

    I just reread Alison’s response and it’s so true—OP is not in any position to manage anybody here effectively. If you want to be in this position in the future, you should:

    1) Fire the new employees. Immediately. (In the US, you’re likely in an at-will state, so this should not be an issue. Laura has caused enough chaos already that firing her won’t be an issue.)

    2) Go back to the shipping company for now.

    3) Apologize to Miranda, give her back her title, give here a very generous pay raise and bonus, and hope she sticks around. (Be prepared to close if she doesn’t or if you can’t find someone—not Laura, nor Laura’s friends—to do it for you.)

    4) Take some basic management classes. Community colleges can be a help here. (Someone mentioned a couple of books above, as well.)

    5) Read the rest of Alison’s blog from beginning to end. (And take notes!

    6) Get some therapy to help you deal with your feelings of loneliness and isolation so that when you are in a position to hire new employees, you can ensure you are hiring employees and not companions.

    7) Create some SOPs and stick to them. (BTW, new employees can’t and shouldn’t recommend changes to your SOPs until they understand how—and more importantly, why—they are structured as they are.)

    8) Learn how your business software works.

    9) Institute an anti-nepotism policy.

  169. HarvestKaleSlaw*

    Before I even got to Allison’s response, I was thinking, “I cannot *believe* it took this long for the LW to fall victim to a con artist.”

    Let’s see:
    +Owns a business with a fair number of employees – so, has something to steal.
    +Has zero clue how the business runs – so you can embezzle or steal inventory, and they’ll never ever know.
    +Let the most obvious, toxic con artist I’ve ever seen dictate their reality in exchange for… what? Driving them home from the dentist once or twice? – so, ideal target for a confidence man/woman.

    I could not write a better victim if I tried. And given the way they’ve treated the woman who ran their business for them for years – I honestly don’t care. Good. I hope Laura cleans them out.

    And she will. Con victims double down, always, when someone points out the scam. No sucker wants to acknowledge that they are a sucker. It’s why people send more and more and more money to the Nigerian prince until there’s no more money to send, and then don’t even report it. Allison’s words are going to roll off the LW unheard, and she’s going to barrel down this same road. I haven’t read all the comments, but if the LW is in there, I’ll bet money she’s defending Laura right now.

    I do care about Miranda. It sounds to me like Miranda built the LW’s wealth, and Laura is going to walk off with it after blowing up her job. But if Miranda has to see the business cleaned out by someone – well, at least Laura had the cunning, malice, and work ethic to run a scam.

    1. Empress Matilda*

      Ouch, this is really harsh. OP knows she’s in a mess – that’s why she wrote in for advice. And she’s probably already blaming herself just fine, without anyone saying she deserves to be cleaned out by a con artist.

      1. HarvestKaleSlaw*

        You are right – and I’m sorry, that was too harsh.

        But I really don’t think she is blaming herself. See, the thing about con artists is this: everyone thinks they hone in on stupidity, but what they really hone in on is greed. And in the OP, I see someone who wants to get rich and be the CEO of an amazing growing company without bothering to even monitor it or know the basics of how it works. I see someone who wants “friends” who are who spend all day working to make you rich and all evening driving you around, doing you favors, making life fun, and hanging on your every word…

        Thinking you can get everything for nothing is what the con artist goes after. We are all vulnerable to that message. Nobody wants to hear “no,” or “yes, but it will take sacrifice and time.” But if someone is telling me you can get rich fast without working or that you can have a loyal, worshipful friend without reciprocity or equality… yeah. That’s what’s going on.

      2. Observer*

        Too harsh. But it doesn’t sound like the OP is blaming herself. The only reason I think she MIGHT listen to Alison is because they are a LITTLE annoyed with Laura because they both were “unprofessional” by “putting her in the middle.”

        1. Empress Matilda*

          That’s a good point as well – you’re right, I don’t think the OP is blaming herself. Not that that should be the goal of course, but OTOH a little self-reflection couldn’t hurt!

    3. CommanderBanana*

      Yeah, had a similar-ish situation at a small business where I worked, but fortunately the owner twigged to it early and caught the embezzlement.

      Later worked for a sizeable nonprofit where someone made off with almost $200K. Kind of similar thing but on a bigger scale.

  170. Elbereth Gilthoniel*

    OP,
    There have been so many comments already!
    I’m sure that the answers you are reading may be hard to hear/read. When that happens, it may feel easiest to become defensive or turn away from the advice. Especially if you are already feeling ashamed at some aspects (like not knowing the software). It’s hard for us to face things we are ashamed of! Or to admit that we were wrong in how we were viewing things.
    But if you can take Alison’s advice and the advice of the group, I think you will be much better off for it. So I would just encourage you to listen to the comments with an open mind. Don’t let feelings of shame or discouragement keep you in a bad place. You can move forward in a new direction and change things around!
    I wish you the best, and I hope you write in with an update.

    1. El l*

      Agree. It must be hard for OP – she had a vision of what her job as boss was, and the vision was formed out of her own experience.

      It must be incredibly hard to hear that it’s clearly not good enough.

      There but for the grace of god go I…

    1. Littorally*

      Definitely hoping for it, because I’m burning to know how it all shakes out. But given the trouncing OP is getting in the comments, I’m not gonna expect it.

      1. Paris Geller*

        Every once in awhile a LW who is clearly in the wrong gives an update! I remember the Leap Year birthday letter writer sent in an update (and doubled down on it, which was something else). On a more positive note, I remember a LW who wrote it defending the fact that they asked job candidates for their current salary before making an offer, got some pretty intense comments, and took the advice to heart and wrote in about how their perspective had changed.

        1. generic_username*

          Ohhhh my goodness, I had never read that one but wow, how could that person not grasp that the Leap Day birthday employee was missing out on something others got….?

          1. Anonymous Mouse*

            It’s a shame it was the manager who wrote to Allison on that one. I SO would have liked to have seen a letter from a lawyer telling them that they were being taken to court for breach of child labour laws – at the end of the day, if I were to treat an employee of mine poorly because I THOUGHT they were hispanic, I’m still guilty of racial discrimination. Surely the same principle should apply here – the manager THINKS the employee is a child, therefore…

  172. MistOrMister*

    2 bonkers things in this letter…1) OP says they never knew how bad a job Miranda was doing until Laura started, but later admits they have no idea what, if any mistakes are being made. And the personal complaints don’t seem to have any merit. 2) OP says Miranda is rejecting things that they want to start doing. And then admits they have no idea if they can implement these ideas or not.
    Honestly, the whole letter was something else, but OP seems to want to be presenting this is Miranda is a horrible employee and deserves to get fired, yet OP is apparently not in any position to actually judge Miranda’s work. When you have no idea if someone is actually doing their job properly or not and only want to fire them because your new BFF hates them, you have a problem. And to tell Laura what Miranda said about favoritism and then to go on about how horrible it was to see how upset Laura got….does OP think Miranda is not feeling attacked right now? My goodness! I am confused as to how OP has managed to convince theirself that Miranda is the problem here.

  173. phira*

    One thing that struck me here (besides … everything) is this:

    “Miranda asked me for a review of her job description and I feel like she should know what she has to do, I don’t have an updated job description for her.”

    I’ve seen this pointed out in a few comments, but I feel like it needs to be really explicitly pointed out what the issues here are:

    – “I feel like she should know what she has to do” is not an appropriate response to someone asking you what their job description is. What’s the point of refusing to answer her–punishing her? It doesn’t help you or Miranda or your business. I hate to toss this word around, given that we’ve been discussing how terms like “toxic” have been weaponized, but feels abusive to me. As in, my emotionally abusive parent used to do this to me (I’d ask a question, and be told that I should already know the answer, and then I’d be punished for screwing something up because of it).

    – I’m not going to hypothesize about Miranda asking for this info so she can apply for jobs, because it’s still important even if she’s not. You *changed her job* and she is asking what her new job entails! This is not just a reasonable request, it’s a necessary request. I don’t know why you think she should already know what her new job entails. And if it’s a similar job to her previous one, then she still needs to know what responsibilities now belong to Laura and which are still hers.

    – I think this all goes hand in hand with the other issues, which is that you don’t seem to know what’s going on with your business. You don’t know where your product is coming from, you don’t know how any of the backend software works, and you don’t even know what Miranda’s job entails. It strikes me as entitled–you are stressed and upset right because for four years you didn’t have to deal with any of these details, and now that there are problems, solving them requires that knowledge and you don’t have it. And yet instead of seeing that lack of knowledge as the problem, you see Miranda as the problem.

    I don’t honestly know if Miranda is a good employee. Laura certainly isn’t. But you need to be a better manager and business owner.

  174. Dawbs*

    In a sincere desire not to pile on…

    OP, have you considered a scoring rubric you can use to better evaluate employees? (I often dislike these rubrics but the problem you’ve created is why they exist. It’s also why bringing in expensive outside consultants exists- so there aren’t preconceived ideas and friendships affecting the scoring)

    Because you really REALLY want to know what makes an employee good at their job. (Which also means you have to know what that job- and job description- is). The “magic” interview question is one that people hiring should know the answer to.
    What makes someone good at Miranda’s job? What skills would they show? How does Miranda show proficiency at this skills- measurable things (like “able to complete 7 Tps reports a week” or “completed monthly inventory on time) ?
    What weight of importance do you give those different aspects at the job?

    Laura’s job is probably decidedly different than Miranda’s (or should be, since there’s a change in title and one is a promotion above the other) – what skills are required that aren’t required in Miranda’s position (And offering you a ride shouldn’t be part of it)? What measurable ways does Laura show those skills?
    Why is Laura considered to have those and Miranda’s isn’t?
    (Has the position changed and did you give Miranda permission and encouragement to grow into it before demotion? )

    to be honest, I’m not sure you can be clear eyes in making a rubrics (or completing a pre- made rubric) right now, but it might give you a starting point

  175. Dee Dee*

    It seems to me that there are some things you need to do ASAP. Learn your software is priority one. Do whatever it takes to learn it thoroughly so you can know exactly what is going on in all aspects of your business. You owe it to yourself to do this. Next, get someone to audit your books–an accountant, bookkeeper, or whatever makes sense for you, but get a professional who knows what they are doing. Although you didn’t say, I would venture to guess that you really don’t know how you’re doing financially. And then stay on top of this aspect of your business. Have whoever does your audit show you in detail what to monitor going forward. As for Miranda and Laura, there’s enough advice here so I’m not even going to add anything. I think you should have the picture by now, but suffice it to say that this situation is a dumpster fire and it’s not going to put itself out so you need to step us and take charge because it’s your responsibility.
    Some of these things are probably hard to read because a lot of people are being pretty hard on you but if you really want to solve this (huge) problem, you need to take a good hard listen to what they are saying and I think you’ll see that it’s all true. Good luck to you and I hope we’ll see an update on this.

  176. L*

    I am speechless. This is one of the most egregious, shitty management scenarios I have ever seen. And your stunning lack of self awareness…

    My housate and I were discussing recently that maybe not just anyone should be allowed to start a business. You’re a good example of that.

    1. Bookartist*

      I think it might be both more accurate and kinder to point out that in the US, where capitalism is the national religion, does a pathetic job of training small business owners.

      2. Littorally*

        This.

        I work with a lot of small business owners. While the OP is certainly giving us a case study in bad small business management, this is really not all that out of the ordinary. I have seen so much nonsense over the years. Small business ownership is lionized here all out of proportion, and there’s no minimum level of business or financial fluency (or common sense for that matter) required to start something up.

    1. The Crowening*

      YES. When OP mentioned what a supportive friend Laura has been… MAYDAY! MAYDAY! There are no boundaries in sight here! OP can’t tell the difference between an employee and a friend, and has quickly allowed herself into this codependency thing with Laura.

      It is tremendously disappointing that after Miranda’s four years of service, OP never hesitated to think poorly of her because a new “friend” (ahem… EMPLOYEE) showed up and began trashing her.

  178. nope*

    Something about this letter seemed fake to me, but I am actually wondering if OP is OK. Is this a cry of help?

    1. cubone*

      it seemed SO out of touch at least 30% of me thinks it could be a troll. But the part about the OP’s stress and wanting someone to run their life for them felt …. odd and specific. It’s not the question being asked at all, but I feel like there’s definitely something here about how OP feels about their business and what it requires of them that I hope they are able to take some time and space to think about (it would also explain why a “friend” like Laura is so able to sink into so many aspects of their life and work, if OP is really not feeling in control or capable right now)

    2. Batgirl*

      I was wondering the same thing; they said “life” not business and they seem to need a lot of help and personal support. I hope she is ok.

  179. Essess*

    Something that isn’t explained in this letter… Is Miranda hourly or salary? If she is hourly, demoting her for not working outside of standard work hours (so unpaid time??) is going to come back to bite you. If she is salary, she is still entitled to a work-life balance and to have her evenings/weekends free unless there was an emergency or predefined shift that she is required to cover.
    I immediately cringed and stopped trusting Laura as soon as she announced that another employee MUST move closer to work. Another employee has NO business dictating where someone else lives. That was an immediate red flag that Laura is not reliable to recognize basic professional norms. The only thing that you should be looking at is actual work performance and results, which you acknowledge you don’t know how to check. You need to stop playing favorites and go in and work with them for a while in the warehouse to see what these actual “mistakes” are and then sit down and have an honest conversation with Miranda to find out if this was truly an issue or just a different way of doing things. The system and how to use it must be documented so that you are completely aware how to use it in case you ever need to train someone new. You need to set actual measurable performance metrics for everyone that works for you.
    Go be an objective boss and stop having employees do personal favors for you. Work and personal should be extremely separated!

    1. Observer*

      Laura as soon as she announced that another employee MUST move closer to work

      That and the language about how she doesn’t “care for the business”

  180. Bex*

    LW – I would encourage you to reframe this in your mind. If this were a large business, and you were a department manager watching someone else do this, how would you react? Would you be concerned?

    Even if Miranda has not been doing a good job (which I find a bit hard to believe considering it was good for four years), you need to know how and where she is not meeting goals. This means that:
    1) you need a full understanding of her roles and duties
    2) said roles and duties should be clearly delineated/listed
    3) the above information should be clearly conveyed to Miranda
    4) you should be having regular check-ins to discuss expectations, projects, roadblocks, etc

    But. I think you really need to step back and reassess.

  181. An Ominous Moose*

    “I left a lot of toxic jobs because I wanted my own business and camaraderie.”

    Unfortunately, you became the very thing you swore to destroy…

  182. Strong Independent Acid Snake*

    OP I know a lot of these comments will have been difficult to read- no one likes to hear that they have made mistakes and in the wrong- but I hope you do take the comments and advice given here seriously.

    Laura is not good for your business at all and if you “pick” her I think you will regret it.

    From your letter you do not sound very confident in the role of Business Owner- have you considered taking courses or workshops to grow your knowledge and confidence? Perhaps if you understood more of the nuts and bolts of managing your business you wouldn’t have to rely so much on others, and would feel more able to make decisions about the software etc.

  183. Oh Behave*

    There are so many red flags in this letter. This is YOUR business. You need to know your own processes. What would have happened if Miranda had to take a leave? How would you know that things are being done correctly? Embezzlement happens when you lose control.
    Laura needs to go. I’m glad you had great support during the pandemic. Did Miranda have support from you or was Laura busy filling your head with lies? You allowed her to hire her friends. They are trying to push Miranda out. If you’re not careful, Miranda will be gone very soon. I feel sorry for her.
    Please update when you have fixed this problem.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Came down to post exactly this. Laura is a pot-stirrer and she is manipulating the OP. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out Miranda is already job hunting.

  184. KK*

    I think OP needs to hire a Forensic Accountant to get a grasp on what is going on in the operations of her own company.

  186. LilPinkSock*

    LW, when you say you want Miranda to drive six hours a day, three days a week, whose morale are you trying to improve here?

    I don’t know what Laura’s deal is, but if I were Miranda, I wouldn’t feel comfortable working with her—not the other way around.

    1. KHRose*

      And let’s face it, even if Miranda did make the commutethat would solve zero problems.

      Laura is afraid of Miranda but thinks she could come in? That seems a but contradictory.

  187. Mr Weinerslav*

    I do wonder if there’s a kernel of truth to what Laura’s saying about Miranda. I’m going to take a wild guess that Miranda is not really trained on a lot of her responsibilities (if any) and had to teach herself how to do it (I’m also going to guess that she’s relatively new to the workforce).

    That means things got “done” but in this non-standard, funhouse mirror sort of way. That’s what happened in my last role, where I worked for a startup doing a little bit of everything and probably making plenty of mistakes along the way.

    All of this means it’s even more unfair to Miranda that OP isn’t even really trying to figure out what is or isn’t going wrong, or what Miranda actually needs to do her job well.

    Also even if Laura is right that Miranda is doing things wrong she still sounds like an absolute nightmare who could use a serious reality check.

    1. Person from the Resume*

      I disagree. The business ran so well for 3 years with just LW and Miranda, that the LW expanded the business to hire 3 warehouse employees instead of using a shipping company!!! The LW actually writes that she’s clueless about the business so all facts point to Miranda doing an amazing of running the business that’s earning profit before Laura showed up.

      2. M*

        See, I’ve been the version of a Miranda that Mr Weinerslav describes, and for the exact same “in a start-up, someone has to do it” reasons. You can be that person and still be *super* competent, it just often means you’re cobbling processes and tools together in whatever way you can work out, rather than in the way someone actually expert would be.

        While I’m very much in agreement with the bulk of commenters that the problems in this company are likely, in order, OP, then Laura, then the people Laura hired, that doesn’t mean it’s not possible that there are also issues with how Miranda is doing her job that someone more expert would address. The thing is, the person you hired to run your distribution centre is not the person you should be asking to be that expert!

        To detail it here: it sounds an awful lot like Miranda was hired right as OP started her company. *Was* she hired to be accountant, purchaser, IT person *and* company-wide admin? Or was she hired to (for example) keep the books, and ended up picking up the rest of it because someone had to and OP wasn’t going to do it? If it’s the latter, Miranda can absolutely be – and probably *is* – a very talented, motivated, problem solver. But also, when your accountant is doing your web design, even if they’re very smart and clever and competent, it’s not going to be done the way an actual web designer would.

        As the company I had that role in grew, I spent a *lot* of time hiring people who were actual experts at the things I’d been cobbling together. Onboarding them involved a lot of very careful work to make it clear that I *knew* the things they were taking over were held together with wishful thinking and stubbornness, and that I wasn’t going to have an ego if they told me I’d done a good job making sure things didn’t fall over, but they were going to build it all properly now. What it *didn’t* involve, however, was the person we’d hired to run the warehouse trying to take over the bookkeeping.

  188. RosyGlasses*

    As usual, Alison is spot on. I was shaking my head half-way through with WTF vibes, and Alison is able to put the issues so succinctly and accurately – one of the many reasons I love learning from this site!

  189. Green great dragon*

    OP needs a business partner. Someone to run the back office and the sourcing and manage the staff, while OP (I’m guessing) makes the sales and finds the customers.

  190. Sleeping Late Every Day*

    I started moaning “No, no, no…” early in the letter and couldn’t stop. But it went from moan to shriek by the end, with every vocalization in between.

  191. Orange You Glad*

    One thing that stuck out to me was that OP demoted Miranda in order to promote Laura. I’m confused why this was necessary as their job roles sound pretty different based on this letter. Miranda is doing administration/IT/accounting and Laura is the warehouse manager. Their roles may need to collaborate sometimes, but it doesn’t sound like an either/or situation. Both can be working at the same “executive” (whatever that means) level, reporting to the owner.

    I agree with Alison that this whole situation sounds like a game of playing favorites instead of managing a professional business.

    1. Anonymous Mouse*

      Personally, I think this is really bad practice. it’s one thing that a person gets demoted, and then a colleague gets a promotion based on that, but this sounds like Laura got a promotion, and Miranda got a demotion to accommodate that.

      What’s worrying in this letter to me is that Miranda could indeed be absolute garbage at her job as Laura insists, but she’s STILL the victim just because of how OP has played their hand

      1. Ozzie*

        Yeah this is really the key. I have absolutely no idea is Miranda is good or bad at her job. I have absolutely no idea if Laura’s complaints about Miranda’s work are valid. But the way this has gone, it doesn’t matter, as far as Miranda’s experience/perspective go. It’s been handled so poorly, she is a victim, regardless of any of that.

        But, considering the OP has no idea, we’ll never actually know if the complaints are justified or not. Which is troubling all by itself…

        1. KHRose*

          “I have absolutely no idea if Miranda is good or bad at her job.”

          Odds are OP doesn’t know that, either.

          If Laura says something about Miranda messing up a good business owner and boss would look into it for themselves. OP would be able to give specific examples of what Miranda is doing so terribly that she was able to hide it for years but so blatantly bad it was immediately obvious to Laura. All I’m hearing from the letter is “Laura says Miranda is bad so she’s bad.”

          OP seems to take Laura’s word for it because Laura helped her out personally.

        2. Anonymous mouse*

          Only way we’ll find out is if we get an update in future which tells us how the business does in Miranda’s almost certainly imminent absence.

          Then again, even if Miranda doesn’t leave for whatever reason, she’s going to care so little that her performance will deteriorate

  192. Magda*

    Laura is stealing and Miranda is the only person who can expose that.

    Really curious to know what happens next.

    1. KHRose*

      It wouldn’t shock me in the slightest if this was exactly what’s happening.

      OP you might want to invest in an outside consultant and an outside forensic audit of your business. Let some neutral eyes look at the situation and tell you what’s really going on with your business since you don’t seem to have the ability to step back and look at the situation without emotion and with only the health of your business in mind.

  193. Ellena*

    “I told her Miranda that the change in her title wasn’t personal, that Laura did such a great job helping me manage my life in the last year that it just seemed natural for her to be in charge.”

    That sounds so so tone-deaf that one almost has to wonder if the story is real or not in fact written by “Miranda”.

    1. Tiger Snake*

      Especially since Miranda no longer answering her emails/phone at all hours of the day came after this conversation.
      Seems like there’s a pretty clear ‘message received’ coming from Miranda here. She was doing a lot last year as well, but it wasn’t what the LW wanted/appreciated and she’s no longer a manager so she won’t. ‘Nothing personal’.

    2. fhqwhgads*

      “It’s not personal, it’s just that this other person did something personal – not at all work related – that I had to change your work because of it. Also this is not favoritism.”
      Insert “that word does not mean what you think it means” gif here.

  194. Already ate lunch*

    OP –
    As I read your letter, I really feel for you. I can feel your stress, despair and confusion. I had the same kind of things happen when I was a mgr, and totally understand how things can get too far.

    I hope you can come back to this answer and to these comments. You have a real opportunity for learning and repairing your business. It won’t be easy, but neither was writing this letter asking for help. I am rooting for you.

  195. Anonymous Mouse*

    Laura feels unsafe? How, exactly? Miranda lives hours away…

    Meanwhile Laura is rapidly freezing her out

  197. Kate*

    Oh my word, all I could think the entire time I was reading this was “this person has no business being a manager” flabbergasted is an understatement.

  198. KHRose*

    Op, you say that it was just you and Miranda for about 4 years. Is there ANY indication that in those 4 years Mirandawas doing anything wrong? Because it seems like you were successful enough without doing much of the back end work that you could expand and hire more people. Presumably if Miranda was failing at her duties so spectacularly something would have been more obvious prior to Laura’s hire.

    Then you hire Laura who immediately says Miranda is making mistakes AND YOU IMPLICITLY TRUST HER on this DESPITE the fact that when you gave Miranda’s responsibility to Laura she didn’t know how to do all of them.

    Then you demoted Miranda and promoted Laura based on Laura’s word and personal favors. You should know your business well enough to know if this was a good move to make for the company, but you did it because you felt it was good for you. It’s hurting your company.

    I cannot get over the fact that you changed Miranda’s job and then WOULDN’T TELL HER what the expectations of her new position were. If she’s expected to do all the same things she was doing before what was the point in demoting her? If you give someone ANY new position, either promotion, demotion, or otherwise it is on YOU to know the duties and expectations of their new position and to communicate it effectively. I have a feeling you expect Miranda to do the same work she’s been doing with a lesser title, but if Laura truly earned that position SHE’S the one who should be doing the work, not Miranda.

    And you have a set of brass ones to demote someone and then get upset they’re not doing the extra work they had been doing before (the nights and weekends stuff). Miranda probably had your back before because she expected you to have hers if the need arose, instead you hand her position to someone else and I bet you can’t even produce and actual evidence against Miranda that isn’t Laura’s word.

  199. QuinleyThorne*

    I’ve got nothing to add, Allison and the commentariat pretty much have it covered (and then some), but like…
    Ngl, between the overwhelming positivity about Laura, and the framing of crossed professional boundaries as Totally Normal and not the veritable Soviet Military Parade of red flags that it actually is, for a split-second I was convinced that Laura was the one who wrote this letter or something. What a plot twist that would be.

  201. Tboz*

    Curious, if Miranda is a POC who has been doing great work and Laura is not. This is classic colonizer confusion and inappropriate management.

    My other thought, be careful Laura is not up to no good and plans to push you out of your own business with a soft takeover or steal from you. By firing Miranda you may be setting yourself up for an epic fail

  202. Katherine*

    Hm. I don’t entirely agree with this response. I think the main takeaway here is that the manager is completely incompetent. But given that fact, I’m not sure we can call Laura toxic or disregard her concerns.
    Laura is definitely at the very least a huge drama queen (saying someone makes you feel unsafe when the truth is that you dislike them). But I think the jury’s out on Miranda. Refusing to help a coworker learn processes isn’t OK, even if you’re unhappy they got your job, and I’m sure Alison has answered many letters to that effect in the past. You can do your job as required, or you can quit. Of course, with so little guidance from her boss, it’s possible this hasn’t been explicitly addressed, but does anyone with four years of job experience really think it’s ok to refuse to teach a coworker a necessary procedure?

    As far as “I don’t know the software enough so I don’t know if Miranda’s right”- I don’t think concluding that Laura’s in the wrong is the solution here. LEARNING YOUR DAMN SOFTWARE is the solution, so you can make an educated conclusion.

    I guess if it comes down to an ultimatum, I’d also choose Miranda, since she isn’t the one forcing the letter writer’s hand. But I think we need a LOT more information that the LW herself doesn’t have to really make a conclusion here.

    I think the most telling line in this whole letter is “they’re putting me in the middle.” Clearly this person has absolutely no idea what the role of a manager is. What exactly were here two employees supposed to do, if they couldn’t agree?

    Yes, the letter is skewed toward Laura, but I think the response is skewed against her, without enough information to do so.

    1. Littorally*

      It seems weirdly credulous to me to say “Well, Laura’s got all these manipulation red flags and no sense of boundaries, but maybe she has a point about Miranda being incompetent actually!”

      What in the letter makes you think that Laura might be reporting accurate concerns?

      1. Katherine*

        I don’t think it’s weirdly credulous to say that. A broken clock is correct twice a day. She could be manipulative and Miranda could be a bad employee. No reason it can’t be both.

        My first read was that Alison was going too far in the other direction, from “Laura’s a saint” to “Laura’s toxic,” but I’ve been rereading it more and mentally backing off my original stance. I guess my point was- the main problem in this letter, by a factor of 1000, is the incompetence of the manager, so I don’t think we can really draw a conclusion about Miranda’s job performance. But yes, we do know for sure that Laura’s a troublemaker.

        As far as “what in the letter would make me think…” well, again, refusing to help a coworker, plus always being the one to shoot down ideas (are they unrealistic or isn’t it POSSIBLE that Miranda is lazy?) And again, if the manager knows nothing about the business, correct, she doesn’t know if Miranda is right, but *nor does she know if Laura is right*.

        The more I think about it, Laura does suck and maybe I’d even call her toxic, but neither we nor the OP know enough about the situation to get all the way to the bottom of the problem.

        1. Ellie*

          Well, the manager is incompetent is one fact available in the letter, but there are a couple of others there as well. Laura doesn’t like Miranda. Laura got the manager to hire her friends. The business used to be just the manager and Miranda, and a shipping company. Miranda wants a position description.

          On the surface of it, Laura looks a lot more replaceable than Miranda is. Why not sit down with them both and get Laura to go through these mistakes she sees. Maybe Miranda can explain them?

        2. M*

          I mean, we know the company’s grown a lot, in a period of time where it had two staff members, OP and Miranda. And OP doesn’t know the supply chains well enough to know whether Laura’s suggestions of changes to product sourcing are good ideas. And doesn’t know how to use the software that the company seems to be reasonably reliant on.

          Miranda may or may not be *perfect*, but there’s enough here to be fairly certain that she’s probably decently competent and motivated.

    2. SimplytheBest*

      Miranda hasn’t been given an updated job description. If one of my coworkers just randomly started telling me I needed to train them on parts of my job, I probably would brush them off and say no thanks, I don’t have time for that ish. If OP wants Miranda to train Laura, she needs to be explicit over what Miranda’s actual job is and what Laura needs to be trained on. Leaving them to just duke it out is not going to work.

    3. Observer*

      Yes, the letter is skewed toward Laura, but I think the response is skewed against her, without enough information to do so

      We actually DO have enough information to know that Laura is a major problem. She claims to “feel unsafe” with Miranda because Miranda is “too negative and limiting”. What kind of nonsense is that? And if she really had a reason to feel unsafe, why would she complain that Miranda wouldn’t move closer to the office.

      She claims that doesn’t “care about the company” which is nonsense to start with. Her rationale is even sillier. Why would someone who was hired to work remotely in the first place move to be closer to the job?

      Laura claimed the Miranda was making mistakes – but Laura does NOT KNOW THE SOFTWARE or THE PROCESSES that Miranda uses. How could she know that Miranda made mistakes, much less fix them?

      She presented the OP with a ridiculous ultimatum.

      But I think the jury’s out on Miranda. Refusing to help a coworker learn processes isn’t OK, even if you’re unhappy they got your job, and I’m sure Alison has answered many letters to that effect in the past. You can do your job as required, or you can quit. Of course, with so little guidance from her boss, it’s possible this hasn’t been explicitly addressed, but does anyone with four years of job experience really think it’s ok to refuse to teach a coworker a necessary procedure?

      Under these particular circumstances, actually, yes Miranda is doing the right thing. The issue is not that Laura took her job. The issue is that Laura is making accusations against her while she doesn’t know the process or software. On top of which, you can’t complain when someone decides to not do a certain thing when their boss refuses to actually give them an updated job description.

      The OP basically told Miranda that Laura is the best thing since sliced bread and therefore she’s going to take over, but they are not going to tell Miranda what her actual new duties are. At that point, why would any reasonable person take any extra step to help someone who is trying to harm them? Laura has been claiming that Miranda is doing these tasks wrong. If Laura knows enough to make these accusations, then she knows enough to do the work without dumping more on Miranda. If she doesn’t know, then she needs to stew in her own toxic juices.

      1. Katherine*

        You’re right. I was wrong. I was initially reading Laura as a young person not used to the workforce. Ridiculous ultimatums, and not knowing what is and isn’t harassment are things that I’ve experienced when managing people in their first jobs. The comment about not caring enough about the job to work in person seems like the kind of dumb thing I’ve heard from, again, young people, or possibly said myself back in the day. But she probably is more malicious than I was originally reading her.

        Again, the main thing I got from the first letter is the failure of the manager. She seems like exactly the type of person who could employ a bad employee for 4 years and not know it (and, of course, the type of person who could be taken in by a manipulator like Laura). I said the jury was out on Miranda, and I’m not sure it still isn’t. But yes, the jury is back on Laura with a unanimous verdict. I retract my original comment, but whatever happens with these two, the manager is still by far the biggest problem here.

      2. Fran Fine*

        Laura has been claiming that Miranda is doing these tasks wrong. If Laura knows enough to make these accusations, then she knows enough to do the work without dumping more on Miranda.

        Exactly this. If Miranda’s doing everything wrong according to Laura, then she should NOT be the one training Laura on anything. So Miranda’s failure to train in this context is not at all a mark against Miranda – that’s actually sensible.

  203. ElephantNoises*

    You are not a very good manager. You can fix that, but it will take a lot of work. It will take self reflection and taking ownership of the staffing problems at your store. You have largely caused them yourself and are making it out like your employees have made problems, when in fact you checked out of management and created the situation.

    This is literally a nightmare description of why many people avoid working for small businesses.

  204. MadisonB*

    I think OP is an easy mark who has been highly manipulated by Laura and likely isn’t thinking clearly; OP is stuck in the manipulation and friendship phase of being played by someone with not one altruistic intention. Laura is running the show as a “trusted confidante.” Miranda being 100% remote makes it easier to stop seeing her as a valued employee and, in turn, more of an enemy who isn’t as helpful, caring, compassionate, competent, dedicated, etc as Laura, who’s likely in OP’s office 50% of the day to gossip and solve OP’s personal problems. I’m actually surprised that Laura may be pushing for Miranda to come on site, unless Laura knows there’s a 99.9999% chance that will never happen, because it’s much easier to cold shoulder/manipulate someone out when they’re not in the same room as you. (I also wonder how much Miranda has caught onto. It’s hard to have a good grasp of this kind of abuse when you’re remote and only hearing bits and pieces.)

    OP, stop listening to Laura and, most importantly, stop feeding drama about Miranda to Laura; it reads as if Laura is intentionally working you up and twisting facts around to serve her interests. (I’m imagining the “Miranda didn’t answer my email the entire weekend!” complaint was met with “OMG, she’s terrible; any dedicated employee wouldn’t hang you out to dry like that… I’m so sorry; you deserve so much better…who DOES that?!” from Laura, when a reasonable/neutral employee would probably say, “It was the weekend; also, leave me out of it”). Try the greyrock technique with Laura and see what she does when you’re not feeding the drama. Recognize that Laura likely manipulated you into demoting/nuking Miranda, which 100% served no one but Laura. I second the person upthread who said it’s time to start over with your staff, except I’d give Miranda a hefty severance, an apology, and a glowing reference. I’d also add that you mentioned having a long history of toxic work environments…and now you’ve created this one as a manager…at some point, we all have to look at ourselves and recognize that sometimes our behavior (including our responses to others’ behavior) is the common denominator. Take a hard look at that. I’ve had to do it. Good luck.

    1. MadisonB*

      I’d add that I think it’s also possible that OP is the problem who has manipulated Laura into seeing Miranda as a problem, and Laura is the easy mark who has gullibly gone along with it over time (along with tons of personal favors and emotional labor for OP’s personal problems). I had a boss like that once who was very good about playing people against each other and then shifting blame everywhere else. The target was always a person who had pushed back, disagreed with, or criticized the boss, and the boss would then essentially turn the missiles toward the dissenter and recruit/groom the mark as an ally to help launch the missiles. Not trying to pile on OP but I do wonder from the lack of insight and toxic expectations expressed in the letter if Laura isn’t the one getting piled on.

    2. Fran Fine*

      I’d also add that you mentioned having a long history of toxic work environments…and now you’ve created this one as a manager…at some point, we all have to look at ourselves and recognize that sometimes our behavior (including our responses to others’ behavior) is the common denominator. Take a hard look at that.

      Quoting for emphasis. This is good advice.

    3. animaniactoo*

      Considering that Miranda lives 3 hours away, I think Laura did feel perfectly safe in expecting that it would never happen.

    4. Already ate lunch*

      I read this the same way, with a lot of feeling for OP. I was a person who was pretty gullible and easily manipulated, so I can understand how this situation has gotten so far in the muck. And if the owner only knew toxic work environments, it is easy to see where she would not have the background or experience to stop this on her own. I think Allison was spot on. I imagine the answer, and the comments, will feel pretty harsh. I hope the OP is able to learn from this and reset her business.

  205. Evelina Anville*

    First: This past year has been garbage and a struggle for so many. I’m sorry it’s been rough. I’m glad you’ve made it through it.

    “A few months ago, I promoted Laura and gave her Miranda’s executive title, which was a demotion for Miranda.”

    What was this conversation like with Miranda? How many conversations did you have leading up to it? Did you clearly explain whatever problems you had with her work/behavior and that they would lead to demotion if they continued? Did she understand? Did y’all agree on clear metrics she’d have to meet within a certain time frame to prevent the demotion?

    I ask because, as a manager, I’m a big believer that demotions/other penalties should not be a surprise to employees. Being demoted is a Big Deal. It can affect your paycheck, your responsibilities, your next role. For a lot of people, self-image is tied to our work and our job titles. For some people, part of the appeal of startups/small companies is the ability to have a higher title that would be harder to get at a larger company. Miranda lost an executive title. What level is her new one? Was it a large jump?

    1. RosyGlasses*

      “I ask because, as a manager, I’m a big believer that demotions/other penalties should not be a surprise to employees. Being demoted is a Big Deal.”

      Absolutely – it’s my rule of thumb that (a) any firing, progressive discipline, etc should not come as a surprise and (b) if you are going to demote someone, you may as well fire them. In only very rare circumstances does it work well to retain an employee that has been demoted.

  206. Tiger Snake*

    This feels like a letter where the LW should have written it, changed the names, and then deliberately left it for two weeks (so she could forget it) before trying to re-read it again with a fresh pair of eyes as though it had come from someone that’s not her. And then sent it to Alison after doing all that first.

    There’s a lot of things here that, from an outsider, are immediate flags or “well duh, you just said…” things. Which just generally tells me that the LW is very emotionally invested and its making hard for her to see the big picture (both about what’s unreasonable, and about how one event was caused or impacted by a previous event). Writing down the timeline of events and then taking a breather before doing a critical scan to identify the correlation helps with that sometimes.

    As it happens, this one makes me really suspicious of Laura, but I want to give it the benefit of a doubt and think that perhaps its just genuinely Laura and Miranda just have a personality clash that could have been managed if the LW had been thinking more big-picture instead of in-the-moment.

  207. Mr. Shark*

    There are a lot of red flags here on Laura’s part, no doubt, but I wonder if maybe she might have a point or two regarding Miranda?
    What if all this time the warehouse and shipping were outsourced, there were some real issues that the outsource supplier was compensating for, and once it was brought in house, Laura has legitimate complaints about issue that were previously covered up by Miranda (or she didn’t know it was being covered up).
    It sounds like everyone is jumping on Miranda’s side, because Laura seems to have her cronies lined up on her side against Miranda, and that may be true. Or maybe since LW is just so blind to how things are run, she had no idea there were issues with Miranda this whole time.

    2. Mr. Shark*

      Oh, and I’ll reply to myself. Demoting Miranda and then not going over her job responsibilities is pretty awful. I don’t know why she would be demoted without a discussion of what she was doing wrong in the first place and why she would be demoted, and why she wouldn’t be given a chance to fix any issues (if there were any). And secondly, it’s absolutely the LW’s responsibility to define Miranda’s new role.
      Additionally, has Miranda actually had a chance to defend her self on any of this? It sounds like the communication is severely lacking between LW and Miranda, and that may not be all Miranda’s fault.

    3. M*

      An outsourced shipping company is much more likely to “return problem to sender” than an internal warehouse. If Miranda had been failing to keep the shipping company in stock, messing up order paperwork, not paying invoices on time, etc – OP would absolutely have run into that headlong years ago. Outside contractors or providers are much more inclined to just email their client and say “we’ve got 50 orders for alpaca headphones, but we’re out of stock. what’s up?” or “you’ve just shipped us another batch of the llama slippers, and we’ve had a full consignment sitting in storage for months already. here’s your invoice for stock storage.”

      1. Gumby*

        An outsourced shipping company is much more likely to “return problem to sender”

        Absolutely this. It once took us 4 extra days to get something shipped because one field on a required form was not filled out. The info was duplicated elsewhere on the form, just not also in the specific field. No thinking human would be confused about what should be there but no, no, it had to be filled out and must be filled out by someone from our company, no you can’t authorize someone from the shipping company to do it, it must be filled out in person but we partially shipped your stuff already so you can’t go to a *local* airport / warehouse to make the change because we sent it 500 miles away before we noticed…

  208. Raida*

    Laura wants to run your business, take her advice and complaints with a grain of salt.
    You cannot take advice from an unqualified business consultant who’s been *such* a good friend that she got her two mates jobs.
    As you have never hired someone to *run* the business, I suggest that you spend a month getting back up to speed on the actual running of the business because right now you admit you don’t actually know how stuff works or the software used.

    You need to get an idea of all the workflows, evidence of any claims that Miranda has screwed up, anything Laura wants changed needs to be defined fully including the benefits, the problem it solves, the issues it could create, the cost, etc. It is very *very* easy to suggest changes. It is a lot less fun and satisfying to document processes, calculate man-hours, do risk assessments to present a business case to argue for an improvement – which is why people are far more likely to say “we could just xxx” instead of doing the work required to make a balanced decision. Laura ever suggest things that contradict her own previous suggestions? Probably not – which indicates she isn’t testing the ideas out enough.

    My biggest advice is to hire a business analyst. Get them to check your data workflows, efficiencies, error rates.
    Take *their* advice.
    They are the one with industry experience, they are the one with proof their advice has been beneficial to other businesses, they have probably run small/medium businesses, managed finances, built analytics, defined issues and prototyped solutions.

    YOU need to know your business better. Yes, hiring people to do tasks is important, but it does not mean you abdicate responsibility and knowledge. The business analyst should be able to provide you with reporting/suggestions on reporting to help keep you abreast of anything that is indicative of needing you to drill into it.

    1. Raida*

      And all of this is me avoiding the HOLY SH*T HONEY section where you changed job titles, refused to define the new role, blamed the person demoted for not knowing what’s going on, denied that a personal relationship skewed your perception of business value, didn’t investigate issues, accept one person’s opinions as somehow objective despite them always being in her own favour… and ignore that all the ‘issues’ started at the same time your new staff did.

  209. X-Man*

    “Miranda’s demotion wasn’t personal, it was just because I like Laura much more than her.”

    ???How is that not personal???

  210. Old Med Tech*

    OP I would not do well running a business. It takes a specific skill set. I think many people would not do well starting a business. Please listen to Alison and take her advice. I wish the best for you, but at the end of the day owning a business may not be the right fit for you.

    If it matters I think Miranda is the employee you want to listen to and promote, not Laura.

  211. TG*

    First off, you need management training. Secondly, you should call Miranda and give her her title back and really listen to what she has to say – rework her job description and make sure you two are aligned on it. Ask her to show you why processes and procedures would not work. Thoroughly understand the issues and also listen to her about what she thinks is going on. Schedule a weekly touch point with just you and her.
    Next tell Laura that while you value her work and those she also helped to bring on board, you need professionalism to rule the day and the complaining about Miranda has to stop. Schedule the same touch point with Laura.
    Next you need to evaluate work by work and clear goals snd metrics and not likability.
    You better hope Miranda does not leave or sue you because I think she could, for allowing Laura to create a hostile work environment.

  213. Not So NewReader*

    I could not even read all the comments. OP if you are still reading, I am actually in awe of you. I am not sure if I would be still reading.

    Sadly, OP, we learned a lot about how you run your business or don’t.

    1) Employees need current job descriptions describing their duties and the metrics they will be evaluated on.

    2) Employees need regular evaluations.

    3) Employees need to know what raises are given for and how often to expect a raise.

    4) Employees need to know what the business plan for the year is- so they can purchase items, supplies and allot payroll hours, etc, accordingly.

    5) Financials should be audited by an outsider periodic. Inventory should be counted at set intervals and compared to what has been ordered and what has been sold.

    6) Employees should have periodic meetings to talk through problems that come up and figure out how to solve the problems.

    7) Employees should be crossed trained so no one’s departure sinks the ship. Materials for cross training should be organized and keep in a common space that is accessible to everyone as needed.

    8) Employees should have their own copy of the company’s rules and expectations. This includes a section on doing favors outside of work for bosses/supervisors in expectation of receiving preferential treatment.

    9) If you are not doing annual trainings regarding harassment and discrimination you need to start, pronto. What you have here is a little greenhouse for starting all kinds of activity not allowed by law. Granted your business may be too small to be required to have such training but your business is spinning out of control and you should cover every base to make it stop.
    If you want a bully-free workplace then you need to lead the group. Bullies exist in a vacuum. If no one is watching, then the bullies do their thing.

    11) You can read up on workplace culture and create a different environment. People who are well supported, understand their job and understand what is expected out of them behave much differently than this group.

    This is what jumps out at me right now. I am sure you will find more as you go along. Running a business is a commitment to life long learning. There will always be something new that you need to learn about.

  214. RAM*

    I know it sounds like OP is being unfair to Miranda, but I think what people are missing is that it’s very important that you understand and work well with your employees – and it sounds like OP doesn’t work well with Miranda.

    I’ve had a Miranda, who was very negative and refused to try new things, sometimes for cause… but it just irritated me of how quickly she’d shut new ideas down. I got a Laura who although more junior and inexperienced, was more willing to go with my ideas and try new things. The work quality of our team didn’t change – Laura was super eager, tried her best and sometimes fell flat.. whereas Miranda would have just said no from the start… but working with Laura was so refreshing FOR ME that I’d choose Laura over Miranda any day. It’s not always about who is right or wrong, it’s about who OP can work with.

    1. Tuesday*

      I get what you’re saying, but the OP seemed fine working with Miranda for four years. It’s only been since Laura showed up that there have been problems. And the OP admits she doesn’t know if Miranda is right to reject the new ideas. To me, Laura sounds eager but that includes being eager to get Miranda out of the picture. “You’d have to be abysmal at your job to cause problems when you’re not there in person” doesn’t sound like something a positive person would say. That sounds unnecessarily nasty.

      1. Fran Fine*

        This. Nothing about what Laura’s saying or doing per the OP’s letter sounds like that of an eager, happy, helpful person. She’s melodramatic and shit talks a coworker on a regular basis behind her back and I guarantee Miranda sees her for exactly who she is, which is why Laura wants her gone.

    2. Ori*

      “The work quality of our team didn’t change” – you sure about that? Because I had a boss who would have said that too, because she liked her Laura on a personal level. While I had every single department complaining to me about our decreased output and profits.

  215. RB*

    So I read this several hours ago and didn’t comment because everything had already been said, but I am still angry. I’m angry that you didn’t create a better working environment for your staff. It’s your job as owner/manager to create and foster a fair and equitable workplace, and to be a coach and mentor to your staff. It is your job to communicate any deficiencies in their performance to them and give them a chance to correct those. You need to be able to understand the business well enough to articulate these things to them and to spot it when things are going off the rails. Did you do any of those things?

  216. Sleeve McQueen*

    Whenever we tell stories about ourselves, we naturally cast ourselves in the best light, so I am always fascinated by letter writers who do that and still come through as majorly wanting.
    LW, these comments and Alison’s advice will be hard reading. But you should read them because you need to make some hard decisions, and they are your decisions to make.
    At a bare minimum, you need to get more involved in the business and actually manage your team. But beyond that, you need to ask yourself if owning a bookshop is what you want to do. I ran my own business long enough to know that owning my own business is not for me (at least, not right now). I’m glad I did it and was able to use what learned in other roles. But you need to be comfortable that so many decisions rest with you and it seems that you are not.

  217. Emily*

    Yep, Laura is full of contradictions. She “doesn’t feel safe” working with Miranda, yet she wants Miranda to stop working remotely and come into the office. She says Miranda is making a ton of mistakes, yet she wants Miranda to train her on the software (I wouldn’t want someone so supposedly mistake prone training me). I really hope OP seeks some help, both for her business and for herself.

    1. Ellie*

      I thought the suggestion to come into the warehouse was the OP’s idea, and probably not what Laura wanted. The OP probably thinks that if they spent more time together, they’d all get along. I expect that Laura just wanted to feel superior to Miranda, and about remote workers in general, and doesn’t really want her in the office.

      That ‘doesn’t feel safe’ comment is weird though, she’s not even physically there, and she has her friends with her. She probably just brought it up to bolster her ultimatum, because there was no other way to justify it.

      1. MadisonB*

        I’m not defending Laura but I’ve used “unsafe” when talking about concerns a supervisor was intentionally setting me up to fail, sabotaging my work, and falsifying records that affected my career progression. I never felt physically unsafe but I felt professionally unsafe. Relational aggression is aggression. That’s how I interpreted Laura’s statement. (I don’t agree with it.)

        1. Emily*

          MadisonB: “Relational aggression” is not the same thing as “physical aggression”. If someone says they feel “unsafe” with someone, a reasonable person is going to assume they mean physically unsafe. If you specifically said you felt “professionally unsafe” I think that’s a different thing and doesn’t imply fear of violence. No doubt Miranda is probably feeling “professionally unsafe” right now given the way OP and Laura are treating her. It’s clear that Laura is manipulating OP, and Laura saying she doesn’t “feel safe” with Miranda is just another way to try to garner OP’s sympathy and turn OP against Miranda. Even if Miranda is really being “negative and limiting” like Laura is trying to claim, that doesn’t affect Laura’s physical safety in any way.

      2. Emily*

        Ellie: In OP’s letter OP specifically said that Laura said that if Miranda cared about the business she’d move closer to the office, so it’s not just coming from OP. I wouldn’t want someone I “don’t feel safe” with moving closer. Laura is clearly a manipulator.

  218. Feral Campsite Raccoon*

    I feel a need to tell the cautionary tale of Creepy Ron.
    CW: possible child abuse.
    There is no exact Miranda analogue in this story, but there most certainly is a Laura. My Laura was male; we’ll call him “Ron.”
    One spring about 16 years ago I got a job at a nature education center, in a large western state, in a famously wealthy area. We were about to start running summer camps for rich people, which would more or less pay for the school programs we ran for everybody else the rest of the year round.
    This was my second job after college and my first in the field. I was only an intern. I was SO EXCITED to be a real naturalist.
    I had a boss, let’s call her “Denise,” who seemed fairly competent at first. She had years of service as both naturalist and director. She kind of let me do whatever I wanted in terms of planning curriculum, didn’t check up on me much, and since I was enthusiastic, naturally conscientious, and decent at teaching for a youngster, things worked out okay for a while.
    Then she hired Creepy Ron.
    Ron was to be a senior naturalist/teacher for the summer camp, and I was the junior naturalist/intern working with him. Ron was supposed to plan lessons and activities and I was supposed to support.
    Ron was about 40 years old at the time, I think. He had beautiful, liquid, sad, puppy-dog eyes, the kind that made you stop and do a double take when you met him. That should have been my first clue. It has since been my experience that no normal grown adult has eyes that look like that.
    As soon as Ron was hired, things started to go downhill. Some people are just toxic. Laura is one of them; Ron was another.
    For some reason, Denise was mighty fond of Ron. They hung out together all the time; we all joked that she had a thing for him.
    No one else liked him. Some of the things Ron did that summer:
    -Disappeared when it was time to plan curriculum and told me to “just do whatever I wanted” and that I could be in charge. I was super psyched that I was getting the opportunity to operate as the lead naturalist. Dang, I was young and naive then.
    -Got out of coming into work one day by claiming that his truck had mysteriously been “stolen.” Called in all day with regular updates about how he and his brother and mom were looking for it. At end of day, claimed to have found the truck right around the corner from where he had parked it. Though I can’t prove it, the rest of us were pretty sure the whole thing was made up to get out of work.
    -When another naturalist, “Dave,” had a kid in his camp who got in trouble for dismembering and hurting a live crab in the nature park, Ron threw him under the bus by talking smack about Dave’s teaching skills with the mom of jerkface kid, and finished up by inviting the kid to transfer to Ron’s (obviously superior) day camp section because “he [Ron] would understand [jerkface kid] better.”
    Now, these facts about Ron all sucked, but they are also just garden variety asshole behavior, maybe even entertaining in retrospect.
    However, there’s a reason I call him Creepy Ron.
    It was the firm rule of our camp that no child and adult were EVER to be in a room alone together with the door shut. This meant that ALL bathroom trips had to involve at least one adult and two kids, or two adults and one kid. If a kid had to go to the bathroom while we were on trail, it was sort of a pain in the rear, but we had some teenage interns who could go along as chaperons. Plus, it was no big deal to have the kid pick a buddy. This is really standard for outdoor education, for obvious reasons, and is meant to protect both the kid and the adult. We trained on it and talked about it extensively right before camp started.
    As soon as the camp session began, Creepy Ron started taking kids to the bathroom all by himself.
    After a day or two I started noticing that Creepy Ron- the ostensible senior naturalist and the one who was supposed to be leading activities- was volunteering for bathroom duty EVERY time, especially when it was a single kid who had to go, and was consistently failing to take anyone else with him. Additionally, he did not always come back in a timely manner, but would “meet us back at the classroom” when our hike was finished.
    I reminded him to take another kid; he blew me off.
    I told him I would do it and he should stay and lead; he blew me off.
    I got off trail that day and went straight to Denise.
    I had already talked to Denise about some of the issues with Ron- I don’t remember which ones at this distance- and her response had been, “Don’t complain to your boss unless you have a solution to the problem.” (Note: this is often good advice, just not in this situation.)
    This time, she told me it was no big deal, and not to worry about it.
    What?!
    So there I was, stuck, not knowing what to do next. The only thing I could do (I thought at the time, being extremely young) was make sure I sent a couple of teenage helpers to follow Ron every time he took a kid to the bathroom, and follow him around myself as much as possible.
    I had no idea if he was actually engaging in inappropriate or predatorial behavior. That was exactly the problem: NO one did, because no one had eyes on this guy. Obviously, his judgement couldn’t be trusted either.
    Fortunately for me, a couple of days later our regional director showed up. The first thing I did was ask her if we could take a walk. I spilled the whole story and she was PISSED.
    That was the last week of employment for both Creepy Ron and Denise.
    Draw your own conclusions, but the story seems applicable here.

    1. RB*

      So glad you reported them to regional director. Very courageous. I also wanted to add, about the thing your manager liked to say regarding, “Don’t complain to your boss unless you have a solution to the problem,” I don’t think this is very good advice. Maybe sometimes it’s applicable, but I think that is something bosses say to pass the buck or take the easy way out. Anyway, thanks for the story.

    2. Batgirl*

      That’s some stellar safeguarding right there and you were a teenager! I’d guess Denise was groomed too; people forget that adults are groomed first.

  220. Rika*

    I feel like somewhere in the future of this website there is going to be a revenge story sent in by a former employee of a small business, who, after years of good work and dedication, got pushed out unfairly, but then got the satisfaction of seeing the place fall apart without her…

  222. Qaoileann*

    Occasionally there are letters like this on all problem pages that just amaze me. The OP goes to all the trouble of thinking “I’ve got this problem, I need a total stranger to publicly solve it for me”, WRITES IT ALLL OUT, sends it in, *responds to questions about it* and not once during this process actually realises what’s really happening i.e.: THEY are the problem.

  223. Tara*

    You left a “lot of toxic jobs” and have created one for Miranda, your employee that’s been with you for years, because someone who lives closer lent you a car. It’s not often a contender for worst boss of the year is a LW.

  224. Onetime Poster*

    Wow! Over 1100 comments already so I am sure most anything I felt reading that trainwreck of a letter has been addressed. I’d like to applaud Alison on tackling it so well, point by point, honestly and carefully.

    This is absolutely a mess from start to finish. Be a manager, take charge, and figure your you-know-what out. And stop looking at your personal perks. Gah!

  225. Not a Blossom*

    If Miranda had written in, I would have told her to work on getting out ASAP. If I were you, I’d be looking to replace everyone but Miranda and looking inward to see how this went off the rails and how to get it back on track. I suggest not hiring friends in the future, reviewing all processes and software so you are up to date, and writing specific job descriptions.

  226. RB*

    I’ve had this really loud alarm bell going off in my head since the moment I read this that says that Laura is either stealing from the business or laying the groundwork for that. It has all the signs, e.g. hiring her friends, pushing those out who aren’t on her side.

    1. Tuesday*

      I couldn’t decide if I was being paranoid, but I thought the same thing. Laura is engaged in a relentless campaign to get rid of the only person who will know if she starts stealing from the company. It sounds like the OP trusts her completely and is willing to let her be completely in charge.

  227. APM*

    OOF…. I don’t want to make OP feel bad, but she needs to step up and be a boss. Owning a company -especially when it is so small- should include knowing the basics of what your employees do and how, and an understanding of any operating systems/software used. It seems like the company was doing well (or at least not spiraling towards closure) before Laura came into the picture, so with Allison’s well-written observations, I would agree in siding with Miranda. It seems like Miranda is being targeted here.

  228. no phone calls, please*

    Is it too much to hope that the letter is fake or at least exaggerated? It’s so disheartening to believe that Miranda exists and is dealing with this nightmare.

  229. Lily*

    OP, you have one employee who handles administration, IT and your books.

    Your other employee needed to hire 3 helpers in her first year, in order to handle the warehouse – a job you were going by yourself before you hired her. It sounds pretty obvious which one is more integral to your business.

  230. Kimberly*

    Yikes yikes yikes. I hope OP reads this response and all of these comments because this is giving me vibes about my first real job out of school, and I HATED it. And yes, the business closed after I left.

  231. Steve Birmingham*

    So you don’t know how to source the products your business runs on, or how to run the software, or just what someone has been doing or not doing or if they’ve gotten it right for four years?

    But you also expect quick responses, let alone any response off hours both nights and weekends?

    How the heck do you keep any employees? Or manage to stay in business for four years?

  232. Yessica Haircut*

    I’m late to this thread, but, OP, if you’re not going to invest a of time in getting your operational and management skills up to par, please consider hiring an experienced manager to run the day to day operations of your business. It doesn’t sound like you’re equipped right now to provide a stable, well organized workplace for your employees, and a good manager can help with that.

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