open thread – May 6-7, 2022

by Alison Green on May 6, 2022

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. BigSigh*

    Corporate announced that my home office was one of two dozen they’re permanently closing.

    On one hand, I’m grateful I work for a company that took our feedback about returning to the office to heart. I didn’t want to go in more than once a blue moon, if necessary, and I’d heard the overwhelming feedback was along the same lines. Corporate is going to use we-work or something for those few who do want an office.

    On the other hand, I’m surprisingly sad. My location had a tight knit, wonderful office culture. My personal commute was a scenic walk through paved greenery, and the campus itself was fully decked out with shopping on one side and a riverside lawn on the other.

    On the third, mutant hand, I recognize that nothing corporate did would have made me happy because everything is weird now and change is hard.

    1. Wine Not Whine*

      Those are all valid feelings. We spend so much of our lives at work – whether that’s in a specific location, or virtually – that any imposed change, even for the better, has uncomfortable resonances.

      A thought: can you stop by your previous location and get some nice photos of your walk? Mementos can help get you past the feeling of dislocation.

    2. Love to WFH*

      Same! I absolutely do not want to commute or work in an office again — and I miss chatting with my neighbors at the bus stop in the morning, potlucks in the office, and the like.

    3. BlueWolf*

      I can understand the mixed feelings. My office is not closing, but my department doesn’t have to go back in person. I definitely don’t miss the commute or the cubicle in a windowless room, but I used to be able to go for walks on the National Mall at lunchtime, which was pretty cool.

      1. SixTigers*

        That would be enormously cool!

        And I’d want to work half-days on a regular basis so I could go to the museums and see all the new exhibits.

    4. Malarkey01*

      I think this too- sort of the grieving that takes place with big change. Overall it’s great, but I’ll miss the small things. I tried to find other things that could substitute for the things I’ll miss-I’m taking 3 short walks a day through a park that’s close to my house and my team set up a monthly team happy hour for anyone that wants to join as CoVid numbers went down here and it warmed up for outdoor drinks (it’s zero pressure, the leadership isn’t local and happy hours were already low key standard before). I’m also using it as an opportunity to think about maybe spending summers in a different site and getting ready to maybe move when the kids are out of school. That possibility is sort of blowing my mind right now since I also equated moving with retirement.

    5. Hannah Lee*

      Agree that all the of the things you are feeling are valid, and not really contradictory!

      A lovely work environment is something special, even if it is still work.

      My current job is in a generic industrial park, right off the highway with a 25-30 minute commute on a heavily traveled stretch of I-95 that hosts a chaotic combination of through-traffic of tractor-trailers, tankers, logs, vehicle transport. vacation travelers, aggressive, erratic speeding drivers, and people who I swear last drove on a multilane highway during the Carter administration.

      A couple of years ago, the owners were looking at moving to a building in the small city where I live, located next to a river, walking distance to restaurants and coffee shops, a < 10 minute drive to other stuff, all ~ 1 mile from my home. I was SO psyched … that location change would have been lifechanging for me, in a good way. A short commute if I drove, or a pleasant 20 minute walk otherwise. For 2 weeks I was walking on air imagining what it would be like … but it didn't work out for a variety of reasons, and we never moved.

      I was so disappointed, but consoled myself with the knowledge that I have a pretty good job, and come home every day to a place I really enjoy living. So, I'm happy, but there was a mini-grieving period for the workplace that wasn't.

      Also, we were a combination of shut down/WFH remote for all of 6 weeks during the pandemic so far, so I didn't never really experienced the stressful but also nice in many ways extended WFH time that lots of other people did. I think I would have really loved that and a am bit wistful about what might have been. Then again, I'm also glad I'm still alive and healthy, so there's that.

    6. Frideag Dachaigh*

      I get this- my office is optionally open again but my department has elected as of now we’re not mandating any sort of return. I’m high risk so glad to not be forced to risk my health, but I really, really miss the office sometimes. Both the culture and the people, but also just… the office itself. My work is sort of the equivalent of payroll at a museum- none of my work has anything to do with the actual building and goings on of the place, but a big part of why I took the job was because of it. It’s an organization I dearly love to be a part of, and working from home has me feeling very disconnected from the overall mission of our organization.

    7. I-Away 8*

      One of the highlights of my day is my lunchtime walk in the green spaces around my workplace.

      I don’t get that when I work from home. I love my urban neighborhood, but it’s not as well suited for relaxed strolling.

    8. Invisible today*

      Yes. Change is hard, even when it is welcome. It is normal to mourn the losses that come with it, even as new good things come up.

    9. anonymous73*

      I get it. 2 jobs ago I worked in a large office of abut 1000 people in an awesome department of around 100. I had a lot of close friends and fun colleagues. But after a few years they brought in new management and all the fun people were either laid off, forced out or quit. When I finally left after sticking it out for 4 more years, I went to an office of 4 with the other part of my team scattered around the US. That dwindled to 2, and then when they ended our contract, I got put on another project and was full time WFH. I now have a different job and am still full time WFH. I do miss being around people, but the pros of being at home far outweigh the cons (at least for me). I wouldn’t be opposed to a job that was back in an office, but it’s definitely a huge change to only have my cats as co-workers now.

    10. Lizzo*

      Change is indeed hard. I have been remote for a while but do miss in-office interactions.
      It’s taken a while (because pandemic), but I’ve found other ways to create daily routines that offer colleague interaction, but also interaction with the people in my local community. It’s not the same, but it does manage to scratch the itch for socialization.

  2. Confusion*

    Three times in the last month, some interaction I’ve had with colleagues has circled back to me, but not directly, and I see that I was misquoted. Some of these interactions are in email and purely false statements, some are in-person interactions summarized in email. What I struggle with is that there is no space for me to clear the air or resolve it. I’m forwarded an email and told people will discuss it and what can I share ahead of time. But I don’t get the option to be there and clarify, and in some cases, clear my name. My supervisor supports me, and I’m thankful for that. But I never get resolution on what happened. Any advice?

    1. BigSigh*

      It’s always different people? It’s tough because it sounds as though you’re already doing everything you can. Documenting is key and you’re already doing what you can. Unfortunate though, and I’m glad your manager is on your side.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Can you get out ahead of it? If you normally talk to Susan and then Susan summarizes that conversation in email to others can you start sending Susan a quick email “hey just wanted to make sure we’re on the same page, per our meeting today you’ve got the midterm numbers on ABC and I’ll be sending you DEFG numbers in a week”. Then if it isn’t malicious (ie if Susan just misremembers the conversation) she has a convenient & accurate version she can refer to and if it was malicious you’ve got a paper trail.

      I also make a point to always end my meetings summarizing actions items, like “I am going to do XYZ and once you send me the numbers I will also do ABC”. It gives you one more shot to make sure everyone’s on same page with priorities and what they need.

      1. Confusion*

        It’s always different people, as BigSigh says. And it’s such a large game of telephone. So in your example, someone 3 levels above Susan is upset, goes poking around and someone asks Susan, who says something and then bigboss quotes or misquotes what Susan said about our conversation.

        It’s a mess of telephone but once there is a mess, it’s like Susan and I aren’t included in getting to clarify. Seems inefficient.

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      When you’re asked to “share ahead of time” or you are CC’d on an email that misquoted you, are you able to use that space to clear your name or clarify. It would seem to be the ideal time/place, but office politics might make that tricky — you’re calling someone out for misrepresenting you or getting the info wrong. You probably won’t hear a resolution if it’s a serious breach of conduct, but you should get an apology if it was an honest mistake. If there is a particular person or department that does it, be sure to follow up a conversation in an email.

      1. Confusion*

        It’s always my supervisor just sending it to me as an FYI. I’m not on the larger email to respond to.

        1. River Otter*

          Have you asked your supervisor whether there is any way to pass on corrected information?

        2. Roscoe da Cat*

          I would respond to your manager saying that what is in the body of the message is not familiar to you “but Susan and I did discuss X”
          That way, you are hopefully clarifying what you said and not throwing anyone under the bus. Then it is up to your manager to clear it up in a meeting.

          1. Hannah Lee*

            There’s a saying in the birding world, when someone says they see bird A, but someone with them sees something that’s clearly bird B, and knows that there are things about bird species B that makes it easy to mistake it for bird species A. Instead of calling out the misidentification, which might be rude or awkward, you say “Oh, I think we must have been on different birds” That allows for the *possibility* that they saw what they saw, but makes it clear that’s not what *you* saw. ( I have been on both sides of that conversation … unless someone is in an established teaching, mentoring role, or close friends/peers, where talking directly about the likely misidentifications is clearly on the table and expected, it usually is the most gracious way to handle it … and sometimes it’s completely true … one of the birds moves and suddenly both come into view for both people)

            You might be able to use a variation of this “That’s not what we talked about when we met last week … I said XYZ (receipts for this if you’ve got them … even if it’s your own meeting notes). Maybe they’re referring to some other conversation they had?” So you’re not completely/directly saying they are lying or wrong, you’re just clarifying the conversation you CAN confirm. (and the “maybe some other conversation” part can turn out to be true if they took something you said out of context, or it was something said at one time, before additional info came up, and they’re just referencing the old information)

    4. cubone*

      if it’s happening this often with this many people, is it possible that the workplace overall has not so great communication practices? It sounds sort of like your words are being discussed frequently when you’re not present, which could be normal or could be a sign of a silo’d, hierarchical culture that creates conditions for these things to happen.

      1. Confusion*

        “could be a sign of a silo’d, hierarchical culture”

        Yes, I work in higher education. :)

        1. cubone*

          Hahahaha, yeaaaaaaah this is making more sense to me. I’m obviously bringing all my own experiences/assumptions (a brief stint in higher ed and a close friend with a lifelong career as a faculty admin) and tbh I would sort of chalk it up to that culture.

          I think a lot of the other commenters advice of how to step in and correct when possible, asking your supervisor how to handle it, etc. is probably the extent of what you can do. I kind of think a culture with communication channels and silos like that is ALWAYS going to be ripe for misinterpretation and I don’t know how much you can do (unless this is like a completely new problem when you’ve worked with the same people for years??). You probably are communicating just fine, but in the vein of accepting and not stressing about it too much, you could also just try to be extra conscientious about being clear and direct and to not raise an idea or challenge without making it clear you’re not asking for XYZ to be done immediately, you know? (I’m imagining those “I wish X database was a bit more user friendly” comments to become “they said they want to get a new database!” as an example)

          Also, I do really feel for you! I worked with a very unpleasant colleague years ago who also would claim people said things that were absolutely false and invented, and it feels really awful to be misrepresented and lied about like that.

  3. I don't know what to do*

    I work for a tech company that is great in giving everyone experience in a variety of areas. We’re small enough to know everyone, but big enough earn promotions.

    To explain the hierarchy there is an upper management team each appointed to oversee a number of departments, each department has 3-6 people. As each department goes through projects, the department switches positions. For simplicity and anonymity lets say each department has their own version of a president/ project organizer (this is the “highest” position on the team even albeit it’s temporary for everyone), web designer, bookkeeping, troubleshooting, etc. There are certain internal guidelines to how you serve each position with upper management’s approval to make sure everyone is cross trained. The structure sounds weird typing it out, but it actually works very well, especially when looking to get a promotion in other areas in the company.

    I just came off a 1.5 year project where I was President. Our department has 4 people and we will be figuring out the new positions. We have two newer teammates (the 1.5 year project was their first project) looking to go for the Presidency, Rachel and Kate. Given other non relevant concerns, myself and the remaining team member (Meg) are quite all right with this. Both Rachel and Kate are terrific.

    The thing is I think Kate would make an amazing President. She hits a lot of check marks, networked, easy to work with, met every goal, took improvement suggestions to heart, etc.

    Rachel is fantastic as well. I’d say merit wise a half step below if not equal to Kate. The thing is Rachel can be very…. intense and micro managing to a point of suffocation. I actually had to go to upper management at some point because I was out of my league on how to work with Rachel’s personality. To give you a simple example a department teammate was responsible to design a website gave everyone a preview. The client wanted “bold colors”. Even though Rachel was not incharge of this aspect she felt we needed to discuss the direction and colors, take a vote, conference in the client and have an alternative website made. She took it upon herself to reach out the the client. Multiply that situation by numerous times per month. To answer your question, yes the situation was dealt with.

    Rachel was so upset when Kate mentioned wanting to try for President as well. Seniority wise Rachel has maybe 3 more months experience than Kate. Rachel claims she is the only one who worked hard and contributed anything with substance… not true! We all contributed equally and are a great team. My job was to keep records of everyone’s contribution! Rachel is devouring the company handbook to find a loophole. Meg has even come to me privately to say she’s transferring if Rachel becomes President at this point in time. Meg said we work long hours and she refuses to be micro managed to Rachel’s style of leadership. Until Rachel can “reel it in” Meg would rather be friends who work in different departments.

    We’ve all become friends (technically we are all the same level), so I am trying to keep the personal feelings out of this situation. I’m also trying not to have the department appear to be “ganging up” on Rachel. My opinion Rachel will make a great President… one day. However she could use a little more of a realistic outlook since by company standards our projects are a team effort, round table work style, designed to give us an overview as an employee. As required with any new project, we’ve all had private discussions for upper management on our thoughts for all positions. I know Rachel is going to be ticked off, upset and take this personally if she is not chosen as President. How do I navigate this as current President?

    1. College Career Counselor*

      It sounds to me that it’s not necessarily your job to select Rachel as the next Project President (correct me if I’m wrong). That said, I think these sentences:

      “Rachel is fantastic as well. I’d say merit wise a half step below if not equal to Kate.”
      are not strictly accurate. Rachel may well be an effective and knowledgeable SME or individual contributor as part of a team, but the behaviors you describe (micromanaging, credit-hogging, revisionist-history-ing her sole importance, attempting to rules-lawyer exceptions to benefit her at the expense of others) would indicate otherwise. Coupled with people saying they’ll transfer if Rachel is chosen AND your having to go to upper management to figure out how to address Rachel’s behavior while you were Project President does not exactly bode well for a smooth stint at project leadership under Rachel’s rule.

      I would say that you don’t actually have anything to manage as current Project President if Rachel is not chosen. It’s on upper management to say what they want to see from Rachel in the future if she’s going to be put in that role. And it’s on Rachel to learn to accept setbacks gracefully and work hard to implement the changes needed by the organization for people in that role.

    2. Artemesia*

      Since you don’t choose the president you don’t have to justify anything do you? If no one is giving Rachel feedback about things she is doing that undermine the work, maybe they should — like whoever is in charge of overseeing this team. A bland ‘well leadership tends to get around to everyone eventually’ might be all you need to say — but SOMEONE in CHARGE should be giving Rachel feedback.

      1. I don't know what to do*

        Hi! I don’t choose president, but upper management takes into account my opinion and that of the team

    3. ferrina*

      You don’t say how the President is chosen. Is it a vote or appointed? If it’s a vote, is it a secret vote?
      From there, depends on how much capital you’re willing to spend and who will back you.

      Option 1: Stay out of it. Speak on the merits and room for improvement on both Kate and Rachel and don’t pick one over the other (unless explicitly asked by your boss, then yes, give the full feedback). Just say that you see strengths in both of them. If President is chosen by vote, then only show your decision when it’s voting time. Be prepared for blowback from Rachel, and I’d even loop in your boss/leadership if you’re concerned.

      Option 2: Share your concerns. Don’t make a public show or anything, but go to your boss and share your concerns with Rachel’s working style. Be clear that you think that the team and the work would suffer due to XYZ. Don’t mention that Meg would leave, but say that you don’t think that working under Rachel (given her current performance) would be tenable for the length of the project, but that you hope that these are skills that she can work on for the future.

      Really though, someone should be managing Rachel in this. Collaborating with coworkers is part of her job, and it sounds like she’s not doing this.

      1. I don't know what to do*

        Our department meets with upper management individually to discuss how the project, how it went, our thoughts, and what we position we would like to do going forward. At that point we give an unofficial vote to how we would like the next project’s positions. Upper management relies on this, but has final say

        1. Observer*

          Well, you should NOT get into what other people say to management. If it gets back to her and she’s upset, there is nothing you can or should do. Each person saying the same thing to management is NOT “ganging up” on her. And if management is wise, they will recognize the issues.

          In this case, your loyalty has to be to the company. Especially since Kate is as deserving of the position as Rachel is and it’s not reasonable to favor someone merely because they will pitch a fit. To the contrary – that is NOT who you want in a leadership position.

          I hope that your leadership is sensible enough to not divulge who said exactly what. But you really should lay out your concerns clearly and factually. Yes, she’s a really good SME (subject matter expert) and is clearly willing to work hard and get things done. But she did these things that are extremely problematic.

          1. Hannah Lee*

            and it’s not reasonable to favor someone merely because they will pitch a fit

            I have worked places where that was the approach to decision making. It was … not good. It is clearly rewarding bad behavior, which, unsurprisingly, leads to more bad behavior sometimes from people who were previously professional and reasonable. And it is also a clear indicator of weak leadership, because “I went with this option so that I didn’t have to deal with a toddler tantrum from LoudMouth” while ignoring the impact on everyone else and the ability of the work group to effectively do their jobs well is not leadership, it’s avoidance.

        2. ferrina*

          Say exactly what your experience has been! “Kate has been great to work with because XYZ. Rachel has been great at X, but it’s been a struggle at points because she reached out to a client on an aspect that was not her role and without consulting with the person in charge of that, which was confusing and undermined the other person. She’s also been saying that she’s the only one that worked hard, which is certainly not true and I’m not sure why she’s saying that. Overall, I’d love to see Kate as President and I think she’d do a great job.”

          Do not sugarcoat anything. The boss needs to hear the events exactly as they occurred.

          1. Hannah Lee*

            Yeah, in the work environment OP describes, where roles and responsibilities are fixed for a project, but fluid over time AND a collaborative culture, someone repeatedly hijacking other people’s areas of responsibilities is guaranteed to create chaos and resentment, while likely also confusing the client, wasting time and negatively impacting the final project quality (IME talented, passionate contributed will sometimes downshift or go on autopilot when faced with a micromanager/overstepper … why should they give it their all if a Rachel is just going to come in next week and redo it herself anyway?) Right now Rachel is coming across as a strong individual contributor who doesn’t work well with others.

            Rachel is failing in an area of core competency to *work* in this environment. Without some changes, she would not be a good candidate to lead in this environment. And since you’ve got another candidate without those drawbacks, why wouldn’t you reward THAT person? (if the only answer is “Rachel will pitch a fit and rules-lawyer us into oblivion” the door leading to managing Rachel OUT should be a lot closer on your path than the door to managing her UP)

            1. I don't know what to do*

              Hi ! Thanks for your comment. I can assure you no one is doing anything because of Rachel’s behavior (ie favoring her). Apparently upper management asked my opinion due to others on the team mentioning different scenarios. I kept to the facts, not my opinion.

              1. Observer*

                Keeping to the facts is the right way to go. I’m assuming that you included all of the facts you included here.

    4. BigSigh*

      You need to lay that all out for Rachel. Transparency is key. “You’re going to be a great President … one day. At this time, based on xyz behaviors and work style, there is still needed room for growth. I can offer assistance on this and this. Take some time to think things over and let me know if there are any other mentoring opportunities you’d be interested in to assist in your goal of President.”

      2. I don't know what to do*

        I hate to sound like avoiding this conversation, but lucky for me upper management announces who will have what position. While my opinion will be heavily counted on confidentially, the final decision is upper management.

    5. Miel*

      It sounds clear that Kate should be the next president. Can upper management be the one to make the final decision and deliver the message? Seems like it shouldn’t be your job, unless I’m misunderstanding something.

      1. I don't know what to do*

        I replied above. Yes upper managment has final decision, but they meet with us individually and rely heavily on our recommendations

    6. Person from the Resume*

      Here’s the thing: you don’t actually think that Rachel would make a good President. You’ve actually listed a bunch of reasons why she would not.

      I’m not sure how long you have to navigate this as current President after Rachel finds out she’s not chosen (if she’s not chosen). I think what you perhaps could do now is to provide feedback and mentor her so understands she has room for improvement. But not being her actual manager places you in an odd spot. Perhaps her actual manager/supervisor should be telling her where she needs to improve before she is selected as President.

      OTOH you can push back now on anytime Rachel claims she is the only one who worked hard and contributed anything with substance. Keep telling her you disagree and that’s not true.

    7. I don't know what to do*

      Hey all, since it keeps coming up in comments

      Our department meets with upper management individually to discuss the project, how it went, our thoughts, and what we position we would like to do going forward. At that point we give an unofficial vote to how we would like the next project’s positions. Upper management relies on this heavily, but has final say

    8. Observer*

      This “Rachel is fantastic as well. I’d say merit wise a half step below if not equal to Kate.

      And

      This “Rachel can be very…. intense and micro managing to a point of suffocation”

      Are mutually exclusive, when talking about leadership and management roles. When you add in all of the other stuff?

      What are you looking to accomplish? If it’s to keep Rachel happy, you probably can’t but you can keep her from dumping on you by not sharing your thoughts with leadership and not doing anything regarding choosing the next President. If your goal is to help get the best President and to help create the best environment for the group, you need to share your thoughts clearly and unambiguously with leadership. And to the extent that you have a role in picking the next President, throw your weight behind Kate.

      To be honest, I don’t think that it’s necessarily the case that Rachel will ever become a good leader. Because her problem is not just a matter of a “a little more of a realistic outlook”. You mention multiple problems, although you only name one. And none of them are about being realistic. She micromanages, oversteps her authority, takes credit for other people’s work and will rules lawyer her way into whatever she can grab. And she’s managed to alienate a good coworker to the point that that coworker will transfer away rather than be managed by her. That’s a TERRIBLE sign.

      1. Mannequin*

        I agree. And while none of what she does is ok, I found “Rachel is devouring the company handbook to find a loophole” alarming.

        Whatever “loophole” it is that she thinks would benefit her here (I can’t even imagine), it shows that rather than get the position on her own merit, she’d rather find a way to manipulate herself into it. People like that make LOUSY leaders.

        1. I don't know what to do*

          Hi Observer and Mannequin! thank you for replying. At this point in setting up our new project, I am just looking to make sure that I personally am treating everyone fairly. Upper management has been a great mentor to me in dealing with Rachel’s personality.

          1. Observer*

            I think that you have real leadership potential. Treating people fairly is always a good way to operate. The main thing to keep in mind here is that sticking to the facts, as long as you included everything, *is* fair. Even if someone is not going to be happy about it.

            I’m glad your management is going to keep things confidential, though.

    9. Bagpuss*

      Like others, I’m not sure that this issue of the next president is yours to manage, but it sounds as though in your role as *current* president there may be some room for you to feed back to Rachel about how some of her behaviors are counter-productive – you mention the example of the bold colors and of her claiming to have played a bigger role than she did, is there scope for you to offer feedback and let her know that those things are negatives ? Maybe explain that as president it’s part of your role to track contributions and that her perception that she was the only one working hard or making substantive contributions was not accurate . If you can, maybe give her specific example of things she did which were strong contributions, maybe some things others did which were equally valuable, and possible an example of something she spent time on which was not actually her remit and wasn’t helpful – especially if you or other team members had to do extra work to fix it!

      I think if the president is appointed by upper management then it would be helpful for you to seek to your manager (especially if you have confidence in their discretion) to say that you have personally found her micro-managing difficult to deal with, that you are aware that it is rubbing others up the wrong way, and that you feel that she would struggle to give others space to carry out their parts of the task and that she has a tendency to over-estimate her own contributions.

      You can also give details of this things she is doing well and what her strengths are – make clear that she is terrific at x, y and z .

      If you can o do without outing Meg I would be inclined to mention that at last one other team member has said that they would look to switch teams rather than have to work with her as president as things stand

    10. Niblet*

      “Rachel is fantastic as well …”

      Definitely not. And ditto to the management — they are a big part of the problem. The management needs to up their game and handle tough decisions and feedback. That is not happening, and problems like Rachel are ignored to the point where others are looking to leave the team if she is given additional responsibility.

      BTW, if providing feedback is part of your job as current president, I’d encourage you to step up and do your job. Part of management is having difficult conversations about performance and potential.

      1. I don't know what to do*

        I have spoken to upper management about all of my team as part of a rquired review. I truly think as a team we work great together. I have spoken (as is required) about the strengths and areas of improvement (including my own) for each department mate.

        1. Bethie*

          I am not sure if this is helpful, but I kind of have a Rachel in my office who may be taking over supversion of positions forthcoming in the new fiscal year. I have said to my boss that several of my staff would not consider moving to the new team due to My Rache;’s leadership style. I kind of felt it had to be put out there, ya know? Like you may lose staff if you do this bc of X feedback. But like you, I am not over any decsion making in the end.

          1. I don't know what to do*

            I can totally relate! Thank you for sharing your story. It’s nice to know I am not the only one.

        2. Niblet*

          I’m going to disagree with you again about “we work great together.” That is not true. One member of the team is willing to quit if Rachel is given more authority. That’s not great. Not even close. Please take a closer and more honest look at the team dynamics, maybe looping in a mentor that can provide you with needed feedback.

          Part of leadership is being honest about the people you are leading. It’s not wrong to believe that some employers are “not great,” or should not be given additional responsibilities.

    11. DEJ*

      I find your example really interesting. I work in a creative field and have a number of examples where people have said something like ‘bold colors’ or ‘modern looking’ or something else vague and then you put together something that you think fits those guidelines, show it to the client, and they hate it or realize that’s not really what they’re looking for so you’re back at square one. I agree that if it wasn’t her responsibility on the last project she absolutely overstepped in that specific instance, but if it had been her role, I admit I don’t disagree with how she approached the task. Her looking for a loophole in the company handbook is showing a pretty big red flag though. For your question though, I don’t think you have to navigate anything if the company at large makes the decisions.

    12. Banana*

      You said Rachel’s “situation was dealt with”, but it sounds like there’s a pattern of behavior here that has not been dealt with at all. Rachel is not a team player, she’s downplaying the contribution of other team members, she’s hugely overreacting to unsurprising news about someone else being interested in a promotion. I would transfer if I had to work under her leadership as well. If it’s your role to give her feedback, you should do that, and if it is not, you should be making sure your upper leadership is aware. She is not ready to lead people.

      The best way to avoid the appearance of teaming up on Rachel is to give concise, unemotional, factual feedback to your upper leadership.

  4. Yaz*

    Friends… what a week. I had to fire someone from my project. Not my company. Just my project. My mentor said I was too curt about it. Noted. Then an executive asked me to schedule a call between him and a separate executive, so I did. And then the separate executive got mad at me for not checking in with him first. Politics! This week has been political. Does it get easier? I feel like I can’t do anything right

    1. Oof*

      Gosh have I been there. Some weeks are rough and the feelings about it dull after a weekend off.

      What reasoning did the executive give for needing to check with him first?

    2. Hotdog not dog*

      It’s that kind of week. I had one manager tell me I was being too soft on someone and a second manager saying I was being too hard…regarding the exact same issue! I suppose if nobody’s happy, then I probably got it just about right.

    3. Yoga Sloth*

      I feel this. I’m about 9 months into my first management position, and lately it feels like nothing I’m doing is good enough. I misunderstand the instructions, I misunderstand the context, I misunderstand the request…etc etc etc. And I’ve had so many people not understand the directions I was giving to them, even when I felt like I was being really clear.

      Some weeks are better than others. This month is not going to be one of those. But it should get better this summer. I hope the same for you!

      1. MigraineMonth*

        I feel this too.

        I’m not in management (thank heavens!) but I’m on a really difficult project right now. Rather, the project is easy, the project team is driving me bonkers. I don’t know how, but we seem to be failing to communicate at every level. I’m also not invited to the meetings that I requested, so we end up playing the world’s stupidest game of telephone, and I have reached BEC stage with the project lead.

        This one project takes up 5% of my time and generates 95% of my stress.

    4. Mockingjay*

      Sympathies; agree it has been quite a week. There’s a new person on our multiagency program and she completely gummed up the work I normally handle by demanding that I drop everything and work on this Late Thing. (She is not anywhere near my reporting chain.) I have spent the entire week trying to explain to her How Things Are Done (we have SOPs all must follow to validate data before submitting), correct the impression of my incompetence she fostered with the senior engineer (who I’ve worked with directly before and we got many things done, well and on time), and got behind in my other work because I had to respond (diplomatically) to her endless emails demanding changes and statuses. (Yesterday she was sending them at 10-minute intervals. I kid you not.)

      As a result, I have a meeting next week in which I will have to soothe ruffled feathers of leadership, yet somehow get this new person out of my way.

      Fortunately this isn’t my main project; this is a small side effort that I work on occasionally. I’ve posted about the problems in main project; Main Leader has started holding everyone accountable (maybe he reads AAM now? lol) and things are running extremely smoothly on that one. So there’s hope.

    5. Katie*

      In the the sense that you learn the ‘needs’ of others? Yes. I’m that people have needs (realistic or unrealistic)? No. I have also gotten better at decifering real criticism that I should take to heart and some that I roll my eyes at internally.

      I say that then there are days like last month where an unrealistic criticism had me bawling my eyes out.

    6. JelloStapler*

      Ugh I hate weeks like that. Sometimes people cannot play well in the sandbox and you’re the one that gets the sand in your eye.

    7. Quinalla*

      Ugh, sometimes you can’t win, I feel you!

      My “favorite” recently was getting feedback from a leader in a coaching session that I needed to be more confident and aggressive and then when I was attempting to be more confident getting a sarcastic, “Well, that was aggressive!” comment said in that tone of comtempt. Ooof, was not happy about that one Just one of the many double binds as a woman I get to deal with :/

  5. Person with a hidden disability*

    Summary: I need some “script” advice for a job-interview as a person with a (hidden) disability.

    I am a person with a hidden disability, 38yo and haven’t worked a day in my life except volunteering jobs. I do have a disability income, but sadly it is just above the poverty line (and my family helps tremendously so that I can live alone independently but close to parents, siblings and other family members).

    My volunteering job (and reading this blog for the past couple of years) has given me more confidence to see if I can contribute more to society while earning money at the same time. I have applied for a (half-time) job that should be doable for me without causing more harm to my health. I even have a job-interview planned next week (working for a city/government communication department).

    Obviously I lack work-experience (except from an internship 10y ago to get my bachelor communications degree) and my volunteering job (2 half days a week as a front desk member at a medical house (GP/house doctor). At the same time, besides my volunteer job, I have done extra- educational courses for Photography, followed Digital courses (Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Premiere Pro…) and I participate in the local music school.

    Every site I visit on getting a job (in my country, that is) advises to mention in the interview that I have a hidden disability (while also stressing to not mention it in a motivational letter and CV – advise I think is pretty solid: you should be selected on your merits, not your health status). But you should mention it in such a way that it isn’t a big deal, having the disability. The job I’m going for is obviously something that should be physical possible for me.

    So the best way to refer the lack of work-experience, is to refer to my disability without making it a big deal at the same time.

    I have been thinking about scripts for this, the past couple of days. However, my creativity is lacking probably because of the mental pressure I’m putting myself under to give the best interview I can in the hopes to get this – (definitely) for me – perfect job!

    How do you tell someone I have a hidden disability without revealing too many medical information, convincing them that I can do the job, but at the same time balancing information that I sometimes might need more medical leave?
    (EU-country here: so medical leave, healthcare and the likes are all things that I don’t really have to worry about).

    1. hmmm*

      I don’t want to give the incorrect advice, but I do want to say “Way to Go!” on working towards your dreams.

    2. Artemesia*

      I have no expertise here so take it for what it is worth but I think it is a real mistake to mention a ‘hidden disability’ until you have a job offer. It is virtually impossible to prove discrimination but discrimination is common and likely. Find a way to talk about your lack of work that doesn’t reference your disability. e.g. Family responsibilities — which left me time for volunteer work but not for a full time commitment.

    3. whalewhalewhale*

      As someone who recently developed a disability while employed and is very nervous about when I have to go job hunting next… I wouldn’t overthink it. If you’re worried about it, it will come out as you talk about it. I would just offhandedly mention that you’ve got a disability that you’ve got pretty well managed and are excited about the prospect of employment. Emphasizing the work experience from your volunteer position should show that you understand your limits and how to function in a professional capacity, and you don’t need to go into any details about your condition if it isn’t something that you need accommodation for (to use USA ADA jargon).

    4. Miel*

      I think I’ve heard that with a gap in your resume, it can be helpful to frame it as a positive (I had the opportunity to do X, and I also learned Y).

      So you could frame it as caring for family, or as dealing with a health issue that is now resolved [they don’t need to know details – you’d be able to do the job and that’s what matters]. And then say that you’ve spent the last years learning and volunteering, and now you’re ready to jump into paid work.

      Best of luck!

    5. Bexy Bexerson*

      I have a mostly hidden disability. I say “mostly” because I occasionally use a cane. When I’m not using my cane, nobody has a clue that I am disabled.

      As someone in the US, I’m a bit hesitant to give advice to someone in an EU country; I know things are different there. But anyway…here’s what I think I would say in your position.

      “I have an invisible physical disability, and in the past, the best choice for me was to stick to volunteer work. Now, I am excited to enter the workforce. I don’t expect my condition to hinder my ability to perform the duties of the job. However, I may occasionally need a bit more more medical leave than the average employee.”

      Basically, just tell them what you told us!

    6. Chapeau*

      One thing to keep in mind may be if hiring you as a disabled person will result in tax breaks for your potential employer. In the US, small businesses that hire people who are on disability or have a referral from a vocational rehabilitation counselor are eligible for some tax credits. I have seen questions on some job applications or onboarding paperwork that allude to this. These credits encourage employers to take a chance on someone who might not have a great (or any) work history due to their disability. But if you have a hidden disability and the employer doesn’t ask, they won’t know and might not be willing to take a chance on someone who could turn out to be a great employee.
      Of course, this is for U.S. small businesses, but it might be worth looking into.

    7. Minimal Pear*

      I’m in the US and invisibly disabled, with a somewhat iffy work history because of it. I would strongly recommend not disclosing until after you have the job offer. It’s much too likely that they will discriminate, and if you only disclose after the job offer, you have a better chance of proving that it was discrimination.

  6. Friday 4PM Meetings*

    It may be just that I’ve mostly checked out from my job, but does anyone else get really angry about 4pm Friday meetings? That aren’t a last-minute emergency?
    WHY do people do this? Give people a break after a long week of work.

    1. Lorelai*

      Part of my job is to schedule a lot of client meetings and depositions with super busy professionals. Do you know when their free time is? Friday afternoons. It makes me nuts, and I’m not even the one taking the meetings. Thank goodness my bosses are good sports about that stuff.

    2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      It annoys me since I hate wasting time. Worse if they make it in person and they give me covid before I enjoy my weekend lol

    3. cat socks*

      I live in an EST time zone, but work with people in MST. Unfortunately I end up having some 4PM meetings because it is only 2 PM for them. The MST people oftentimes have to show up for 7AM meetings. However if I’m scheduling a meeting for all people in EST I try to avoid 4PM meetings on Fridays. I know we are all checked out by the end of the week.

    4. Hiring Mgr*

      If it’s an internal meeting, I agree.. If it’s a client/customer meeting, sometimes you’ve got to just do those whenever they’re avail

    5. londonedit*

      I think meetings on Fridays should be outlawed, full stop! Especially Friday afternoons. That’s just cruel. Where I work there are no internal meetings on Fridays as a matter of policy, but with external meetings (I have a fair amount of meetings/calls with authors at various stages of their book’s creation) sometimes a Friday is the only time they’re available, and it does really annoy me! I feel like Fridays should be sacrosanct.

      1. Ashkela*

        I average about 1.5 meetings a day (since my morning check in with my supervisor is technically a meeting, but almost always is only 10-15 minutes, I call it a half) and somehow today I have 6. Given that I’m fully remote (I live in a different state than my entire team), I actually don’t mind having an afternoon one on a Friday, but six is killing me.

        Thankfully the last one ends at 3 and knowing my supervisor, he’ll let me drop off immediately following that one.

      2. Hannah Lee*

        Agree!

        The things that always baffles me is that sales people, or those servicing accounts often call or worse pop by without an appointment (during a pandemic? really?) on Fridays, especially Friday afternoons.

        On Friday, I’m working to finish out everything that needed to get done this week, and ideally organize and prep stuff so reentry on Monday goes smoothly. Maybe if I can get everything wrapped, I might be able to duck out a few minutes early and avoid the traffic.

        I don’t need a random person parachuting in to chat, touch base, catch up, get a feel for how our business runs so they can figure out how to shoehorn their product/service into it, just because THEY’ve got an opening in their calendar or they keep Fridays open for prospecting. I always calmly just say “I’m in the middle of something and don’t have time to talk” and go about my day. But it baffles me that people do it in the first place. Do they drum up a lot of new clients like this? Are there somewhere a bunch of people at work on Friday with their feet up just hoping a document handling equipment or HR/financial management software salesperson pops up so they can shoot the breeze about hypothetical process improvements?

      3. -ing!*

        I’ll take Friday afternoon meetings if I can trade them for the 8am Monday morning meetings my ex-boss liked to schedule. Let me read my emails before you ask me about them!

    7. DisneyChannelThis*

      This drives me nuts too! And then usually I have to spend 20-30min after the meeting setting up notes and some stuff from it for my Monday so I’m not left trying to remember what on Earth we agreed on Friday. I have a little bit of distracted focus issues at work tho, I always need to spend my last 30min of the day writing up status of projects and making to do lists for the next day, then checking my emails one last time.

    8. CheesePlease*

      I mean it’s annoying but have you ever tried scheduling meeting between multiple high-level managers? it’s sometimes “Next Friday at 4pm” or “6 weeks from now on Tuesday morning”. At least that’s the case in my role.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I think that high-level managers know that they’re expected to have meetings at inconvenient (read: crappy) times. And they often either can leave right away after a meeting or were probably going to be in the office another hour or more

        For the rest of us, though, it’s a terrible time. Many people (if they even work past 4:30, a common end time for many offices) use their late Friday afternoon time to get any end-of-week tasks done & plan for the next week. If I had a 4-5 meeting on a Friday, I would end up working at least another 30 minutes after the meeting was over.

    9. CTT*

      I never schedule them, but I actually don’t really mind them. I’m a lawyer and some Friday afternoons it’s nice to be like “there’s one easy billable hour” instead of forcing myself to turn to a hard project before I leave.

      1. Lei*

        Not a lawyer but same – Friday afternoon can be a nice time for a “don’t really need to contribute the whole time” meeting when I’m already tired from the week.

      2. Generic Name*

        I’m in consulting, and I agree. Sometimes meetings are the easiest part of my job (depending on the meeting, of course). Funny you mention you’re a lawyer, as my lawyer just asked me if I’m free for a call at 4 today, wheeee…..

    10. Environmental Compliance*

      Someone a couple levels above me once scheduled a 5PM Friday meeting, and that office was an hour ahead of me – so 6PM for them.

      Oddly enough it got cancelled because “too many people were busy”.

      I don’t know if “angry” is the word I’d use, but I do get irritated. If it was a legit meeting, then I would be less so, but it does seem that every time (at least for me) whatever the meeting is for is not important. It could be scheduled for the next Monday, where, if you go check, there is availability. Or it’s some last minute crap that *should* have been scheduled 2 months ago and now we’re panicking because *whoops it’s due*.

    11. Lilith*

      I had a 4pm meeting today, with my next meeting being 9am on Monday.

      The worst thing is that I’m the organiser of both, as those were the only times that worked!

    13. NeonFireworks*

      I had to do this for a weekly meeting over a full six months. It was an awful time-slot and I was apologetic, but it was the only slot that worked for everyone on the team.

    14. Meow*

      My husband’s boss used to set up meetings with him almost every Friday afternoon to ask him for help on minor things that could clearly wait till Monday. They would always run an hour or more late, and it was infuriating for me trying to make plans for a Friday night or even just plan dinner.

      I kind of suspect his boss was looking for excuses not to go home.

    15. Storm in a teacup*

      I think it depends. Currently we have a no Friday afternoon zoom rule at work but if you work with global colleagues this tends to get broken / vent some weeks, especially when the only free time for a lot of people at short notice js Friday afternoon!
      In my old hospital role the best time for me to have meetings was Friday afternoon as we didn’t have clinics then so our patient facing workload was quiet and much more preferable than having to schlep in for an 8am earlier in the week

    16. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Agree, because I like to take the last portion of Friday to do a final pass through email/to-do and prep for Monday so that I can come in with a clear picture of the priorities for the new week and to make sure any fires are put out before the weekend

    17. theletter*

      My department has set up some rotating training/ happy hour meetings to acknowledge that Friday afternoons are pretty much churn out/burn out/recharge time. I think it helps to prevent any agenda-style meetings showing on the calendar.

    18. Katie*

      I am meets 75% of the day. Friday meetings in general don’t bother me, but I have people who feel it is no issue over scheduling at lunch hours (to the point I have blocked that time but that doesn’t stop them) or double/triple booking me when I am one of the key participants in the meeting! People don’t look and just book when it’s convenient for them.

    19. Ness*

      I’m a project manager and regularly have to schedule meetings that include multiple managers. I try to avoid Friday afternoons when possible, but sometimes the choices are Friday at 4 or wait two more weeks (which might not be an option).

      What really frustrates me though is when I schedule a meeting at an inconvenient time to accommodate someone’s schedule and then they don’t show up. I know that my project can’t always be everyone’s top priority, but still.

    20. StellaBella*

      I had a meeting from 5pm to 7pm, today and also two others same time last week on 2 days. These were not scheduled but have to work in the boss’s free time. Yes I am annoyed.

    21. Rex Libris*

      Yep. 4:00 pm Friday is for wrapping up the various loose ends that need to be handled before the weekend, so I don’t get phone calls on Saturday or Sunday

    22. anonymous73*

      I hate all meetings anytime after noon on Friday, but I work with a lot people who are in meetings all day every day, so I suck it up and deal because I know they don’t have a lot of wiggle room.

    24. Unkempt Flatware*

      I had a colleague do this because she was resentful that people coast on Fridays then got upset that she didn’t get any interaction from us during these meetings. We’re humans, not robots. Brain fry is real.

    25. Anon for this*

      Haha I never schedule these because I know other people hate them. I actually love Friday afternoon meetings though. Meetings are the easiest part of my job. The rest of my job requires extreme attention to detail and is really hard to do at the end of the week when I’m exhausted, plus I never get to end off early anyway (coverage issues). I work until 6:30 or 7 pm even on Fridays. And, since I work remote, the social interaction can be energizing as long as I’m not in meetings all day.

    26. the cat's ass*

      Seriously, I HATE this. I negotiated an end time of 12 noon of fridays so of course clinic-wide meetings are ALWAYS after lunch on Fridays. And they don’t even provide lunch! None since COVID but i fear they will be resuming soon.

    27. Coffee Bean*

      I admit to blocking time on my calendar frequently to prevent a late in the day Friday meeting.

  7. Oolong Way Down*

    When is the appropriate time to remove myself from consideration from a job, assuming that I’d like to keep the door open for future?

    I’m in the later stage of interviews and increasingly feeling like the job is a “maybe in the future, but not right now”. The interview process has been very useful to help me figure that out. Does it make any difference to the hiring manager if I withdraw before or after the offer is made?

    This is a job at a university but not faculty, so some but not all of the various weirdnesses of academia exist.

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      Unless you think there will be something compelling in the offer that might make you change your mind, withdraw now. Saying “I appreciate the time you’ve taken to speak with me, and I’ve come to realize this isn’t the right move for me right now” shouldn’t burn any bridges and it allows them to move forward with a candidate that they might otherwise miss out on.

    2. BigSigh*

      University rules always seem to be different. It it was non-university, I’d say you could say something right now and it may be better than waiting until an offer is made.

    3. Purple Cat*

      I would ask yourself, WHY do you think it’s a “future job” and not a “right now” job? Make sure you’re not short-changing yourself and your skills/ability to do this job. Otherwise, I think you should withdraw when you think that’s the right decision and not hold on to it longer. It takes time to put together an offer and you don’t want to waste their time if you’re really sure.

      1. Oolong Way Down*

        Thanks for being aware of the “shortchanging yourself” element, I know I could do the job well. There are personal reasons why making the switch isn’t so good for me right now.

        I think the consensus is not to wait until the offer, so I won’t.

    4. Former academic*

      Withdrawing before an offer avoids making the hiring manager go through all the university bureaucratic hoop jumping around making offers, and maybe means that if they have a fixed number of “finalist” slots one goes to someone else who really would be enthusiastic about it. I don’t see any harm in withdrawing warmly and cordially now. [I was a faculty member and involved in hiring a couple non-faculty VP-level hires as a faculty member, but not in other staff hiring.]

      1. Oolong Way Down*

        Ah good point, and I certainly know roles (faculty and staff) that have ended up failed searches because the first choice said no and then the second choice had already accepted something else, etc. Thanks!

    5. RagingADHD*

      Generally, if you have done several interviews and have a good rapport with the hiring manager, it’s a courtesy to let them know as soon as you are sure. That way they aren’t counting on you and can proceed with another candidate. If the offer wouldn’t change anything, as Persephone said, then there is no point waiting for it.

      If you’d only had 1 round, might as well leave it alone because they might not move you forward anyway. But if you seem to be a finalist, let them know.

      One caveat would be, if you are concerned that the position is too much of a stretch, you could just make that a point of discussion with the hiring manager the next time they get in touch. They might be willing to modify the position or train you into it. Of course, if you think it’s “not now” for personal reasons like location or career trajectory, that isn’t relevant.

      1. Oolong Way Down*

        There are personal reasons for the position to be a “not now”, I know I could do the job well. Before the offer seems like the consensus. Thanks!

    6. Lizzo*

      If you are 100% certain that it’s not the right move right now, please help out the hiring manager by withdrawing promptly so that they can move forward with other candidates.
      Also, I would be transparent about the reasons you’re not moving forward (not all the specific details, but the “right job, wrong timing” part). If you’re a strong candidate, they may come back to you in the future if the position–or another one that you might be suited for–opens up!

  8. cat socks*

    I have a question about applying to internal job postings.

    I currently work as a system analyst for the Chocolate Teapots department and saw a posting for the same role in the Coffee Maker department. I know someone in the other group who I worked with for a bit in Teapots. Would it be okay to contact her to see if she has any information about the other department?

    I want to leave Teapots because things have become very disorganized. The executives have dreamed up this automated system that is going to save the company lots of money, but the requirements for the system seem to change daily and the whole thing is very disorganized. I’ve been assigned to this project that I know very little about and have been given little to no guidance. I want to avoid that type of situation in the new role.

    I also have to notify my manager before I apply to this role. He’s another reason I want to move. He is incredibly hands off. As per HR we’re supposed to meet with our managers to define our goals for the year and then quarterly to review them. He never set up those meetings and just sent email reminders for us to update our goals in the system.

    I don’t mind working independently, but this is a bit of an extreme. I really miss my old manager. He provided a great balance of letting us work, but at the same time had our back if we needed help with something.

    My worry about notifying my current manager is that I feel like it could be awkward if I don’t get the other role. But I guess that’s just one of the risks of trying for an internal position.

    1. windsofwinter*

      I just applied for an internal position, and I did exactly this. I asked someone I know on the other team what it might be like. It was good insight. If you have a good relationship with them, go for it.

      I also told my current manager, and he took it well. While he is lobbying hard for me to stay, I know he won’t hold me back if I decide to take it.

    2. Hanani*

      Casual conversation with the person you know in Coffee Makers is a great idea, assuming you know them to be reasonably professional (unlike Mr. Reply-All from the earlier letter this week). I’d probably have that convo in person rather than by email. It’s not a full-blown interview-style conversation, just “I saw you had an opening and I’m intrigued, would love to hear more about the work in Coffee Makers”

    3. P*

      Where I work, it’s absolutely expected to have informal ‘chats’ with people in your network, people in their network, and even the hiring manager before officially ‘applying’ and notifying your current manager. Because of this, they ended up changing the process so the notification came a bit later, but that was in place for many years.

      It depends a lot on your workplace culture, but I’d set up a ‘catch up’ either in person or on zoom with my ex-colleague, keeping all talk of moving teams out of written form. When talking to them, I’d note I’m still just researching and not ready to apply right now but hoped they could tell me more about… (the culture in the team, what the differences are in what they do, etc.)

    4. TeaGirl*

      I am a manager and I have signed a fair number of those manager notification forms in my time. Generally, I sign it, wish people luck and that’s it. They may or may not get the job and that’s fine. No awkwardness, maybe a little sympathy and resetting some goals around making themselves a stronger candidate next time, if that’s what they want to do.

      Based on how you describe this manager, they may not even remember signing a form for you. It’s one more piece of paper.

    5. Aww, coffee, no*

      Absolutely contact your ex-coworker in Coffee Makers. I was recently considering an internal move and I spoke to everyone I knew that might have insight on the new role and team. This is pretty much the definition of using your network, just it’s internal.

    6. Meow*

      I was in this exact position like a year ago. About telling your manager – it sucks that you have to inform him (our organization keeps interviews for internal positions as confidential as possible for this reason), but you don’t have to give any indication that it’s because you don’t like his management style. When I was interviewed by the other department, my story was that I was relatively happy with the position I was in (ha), but was really excited about some of the projects the Coffee Maker department was working on, and felt like I had a good working relationship with the team that I wanted to be a bigger part of. You can always spin that story to your current boss if he presses you for a reason or asks if you’re looking at other positions too.

      …Of course I didn’t get the job, so take my advice a grain of salt, but I didn’t seem to set off any “she has her foot halfway out the door” alarms with management either.

  9. Sunflower*

    I started a new job this week and still don’t really understand what my job is or my duties/roles and responsibilities. My boss has given me a list of projects I’ll be working on but I still don’t know what exactly I’m responsible for/doing in those projects. There aren’t really documents outlining things like this for projects (this company is established but still functions a bit like a start up) and I’m getting vague answers when I ask like ‘you manage the client experience, you manage the thought leaders’ but no description of what that looks like or actual tasks. My boss has been so nice and amazing but I’m terrified to tell her I still don’t really understand what my role is or what I’m supposed to be doing!

    Any ways to approach this? My boss has been very slowly easing me into things so it’s not as if I’m running around clueless. I accepted this job without knowing exactly what the role comprised of because of a lot of other great things and don’t want my boss to think I didn’t think it through- but maybe this is normal and I’m overthinking!

    1. Candle Knight*

      Oof, been there!! Startups can be so bad about this.

      This sounds like a perfect situation to apply the whole “Hey, I just want to make sure we’re on the same page!” technique. Since you’re worried about not looking like you understand things (totally understandable and been there), you could approach your boss with something along the lines of “Hey, now that I’ve been doing this for a week, I have a couple questions I’ve been collecting! In your mind, what does it actually look like to ‘manage the client experience’? What sorts of tasks should I be doing routinely, is there anything so far that I’m missing?” etc etc, tweak as needed. This framing makes it much more about you wanting to do a good job and much less “hey I don’t get it.” From there, you have a stronger base to press for specifics.

      You could also try chatting with your coworkers to see if they have a sense of what you’re supposed to be doing—that saved me at my last startup job where my role was super nebulously-defined.

    2. LK*

      The longer you go without getting clear instructions, the worse it will be for you. You’re going to have to approach your boss right away with your concerns, even if you fear it’ll make you look bad. You’re early enough in the job where asking specific questions is normal. Good luck!

    3. Wine Not Whine*

      It’s totally normal to be clueless at first! A week is no time at all at a new job. When I took my current position, it was months before I felt as if I was pulling my full weight on the department’s workload.

      Ask your manager for a weekly check in. Then keep a list of the questions you come across, and use your meeting to go over them. Your list should slowly start to get shorter each week – and if it doesn’t, you should be able to spot specific areas where you need help. (“I get a lot of teapot-item-code tasks, but I don’t know where the code lists are kept or which design lines keep their own lists. Is there a central source? Should I be reaching out and introducing myself to the lead designers?”)

      Best of luck!

      1. CTT*

        Seconding this! I feel like I would give it another few weeks before I started to worry.

      2. TechWorker*

        Also agree with this – I think if you knew totally what you were doing and responsible for one week in that would be an anomaly (or indicate a very structured set of job responsibilities – which is the case sometimes but definitely not ubiquitous across all industries!). Honestly I think that’s overall a positive – workplaces that have some fluidity in responsibilities (Eg – good people in role x take on more naturally over time than ineffective people in role x) can offer more development. Yes it’s stressful in the short term, but one week is nowhere near enough to concluded either way! Hang on in there.

    4. Minimal Pear*

      …………..Sunflower I find myself genuinely wondering if you are my new coworker who started this week because this is what my company is like sometimes, and I had this problem when I started. Anyway I agree that being clueless the first week is pretty normal. I definitely recommend being upfront, because as long as your workplace has a semi-functional culture they’re gonna know that you’re not coming in knowing everything, and they’re gonna be willing to explain.

    5. Doctors Whom*

      If I may – try thinking about this in terms of goals & desired outcomes rather than tasks.

      What does success look like? Get an understanding of that, and you can build the tasks. If you are managing “client experience” then think about what it means to have happy clients in their interactions with your business. You are going to need to understand what makes clients happy, and how you can measure/monitor/observe their happiness. Then you can figure out what the tasks are that you think you need to accomplish, and can pull that together in a plan or set of plans to validated with the boss. Designing the “how” of getting there should be up to you.

      So instead of “what things do I need to do?” the questions are something like “what are our goals for this? and “How will we know when it is successful?”

      1. Product Person*

        I came here to say exactly rhat.

        My job could be well done in a variety of ways. It’s my job to structure my tasks the way I see fit — my manager doesn’t care as long as the desired outcomes are achieved!

    6. anonymous73*

      Be more clear and precise with your questions. If you’re given an answer that is vague and open to interpretation, speak up. If they want you to figure out the how they need to tell you that but at least give you some direction.

    7. Kayem*

      Oooh, I’ve been there. This is fairly normal in my experience. Usually it’s how I prefer doing it because I’m better at hands on training, but sometimes it can be excessive.

      For example, when I started my current position earlier this year. I was called in to replace another person who left and because it was the middle of the project, I missed the kick-off meeting on top of it being my first time in this role. Since it’s all remote, it just made things more disconnected. My first day, everyone was so busy they didn’t have time to manage me, so I spent the day going through optional training material, none of which helped. It was a mix of high concept work quality and ethics training with a smattering of “here’s a thousand videos on how to use MS Teams.” Even the handbook for my role is filled with vague info. Nowhere is a description of what the job looks like day-to-day, just overviews of project phases.

      The only way I learned what I was supposed to do was asking my coworkers in the same role on related projects and saving the bigger questions for my supervisor. But the problem was, I’ve never done this level before, so I had a hard time even finding the questions to ask. It’s a case of if you don’t know there’s a question to ask, how will you know to ask the question? I made a lot of mistakes that I had to correct, but given I had two weeks to do what everyone else had two months to do, I did pretty ok. I got more confident as it went on, but even on the final day of the project, I was still asking them if there was something else I was supposed to be doing for cleanup because the handbook was a bit vague on that part.

      We’re starting a new project next week and again, I’m left not knowing what I’m supposed to do since I missed the first half of my first project. I know it involves meeting with clients and conferences and some vague description of consulting, but that’s about it. I’m hoping I’ll learn this in the kick-off meeting, but it’s only half an hour, so I’m expecting I’ll have to bug my coworkers again.

  10. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    I’m on vacation this week! But I still have work problems. My mental health is terrible and nothing fixes it. My Dr is thinking of trying something new but it would require time off from work and I’m quite sure work would not go for that. Another issue is my physical health is already declining too mysteriously.

    What would yall do job wise if both your mental and physical health crapped out? ( I live in the US so if I don’t have a full time job I don’t have health insurance!)

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Two thoughts:

      1) Can you take FMLA while you work on the new treatment with your doctor?

      I know FMLA is unpaid, so this only works if you can afford it, but work would be required to give you the time off.

      2) This is just based on your username, so it might not apply but: can you look for a less crazy job (or industry if your entire industry is crazy)?

      Sometimes health things just happen and there’s no stopping them. But I have heard from a lot of people (including on AAM), that they had physical symptoms that vanished when they switched to a less stressful job.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        The whole industry is crazy. I do have a lot of job search trauma so I’m loath to do something so depressing when my health is so bad.

        1. ThatGirl*

          The problem, of course, is that your health may not easily improve without a new/better/less stressful job.

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            Yes it’s true that under our economic system I won’t survive, but I was hoping to make it into my 50s at least

    2. lobsterbot*

      ugh, that sucks. but if you think your choice is between quitting your job or getting so sick you have to leave, you might as well ask work about taking a leave of absence. If they say no, you’re back where you started, but they might (and should) say yes. Read up on the FMLA and related leaves you might be eligible for.

    3. whalewhalewhale*

      That happened to me last year. I had a very sympathetic boss and has been communicating about my deteriorating physical health for some time, so I had that on my side. I worked out to use FMLA to work part-time for a couple weeks, then work my way back to full time over the next couple weeks. My health would probably have been more negatively effected by a being cut off work for a bit and then having to just jump back in, but taking a big step back allowed me to get some breathing room to take more care of myself, and rolling back in slowly let me see warning signs early and have the wiggle room to figure out how to address things as they came up.
      It was a much easier sell on my boss as a “I don’t want to take a lot of time off work, but this is unsustainable and we both want to get the best work we can.”

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        That would be a good solution. With the treatment I’d probably just need 2 or 3 hours off daily but of course the expectations would not be reduced so I’m a lil worried

        1. Librarian of SHIELD*

          I really do recommend pursuing the FMLA route. Your doctor can be really specific about what your work restrictions are (one day off per week, six hour days for x number of weeks, etc) and it’s a violation of federal law for your employer to penalize you for not completing duties because of your FMLA restrictions.

          Last year I had a sudden injury and had to be away from work for several weeks to recover, which happened to overlap with a project my PMG goals required me to complete. But because my leave was covered by FMLA, my bosses weren’t allowed to give me a “not met” on that project goal. They removed it and replaced it with something else instead. At another job, I had a coworker who was on FMLA while she was in treatment for cancer, and she had to work shorter days than normal which meant she wasn’t completing as many tasks per week. But because of FMLA there was no penalty for her reduced workload.

          Talk to your doctor. They’ll know how to file the paperwork to get you what you need.

        2. Loredena*

          That would make you a candidate for intermittent FMLA. It would reduce your income but make everything more manageable inasmuch as if your company is covered they can’t refuse

    4. Purple Cat*

      As long as your company is large enough to require FMLA, they’re not allowed to “not go” for you taking the time off. It’s legally required.

    5. Sunflower*

      I would strongly suggest asking to a take a leave of absence or FMLA if you have to. I believe both of those options allow you to stay on benefits. What about short-term disability? I haven’t looking into any of these things but people on Fishbowl often talk about utilizing these options. In the case you do need to quit, you would be able to utilize cobra or the Marketplace but of course you’d be paying more than you’re probably paying now. Unfortunately it’s going to be extremely difficult to do this and get paid a full time wage so as long as you can manage with a smaller amount of income coming in then there are definitely options that will protect you from losing your job! Good luck and I’ve been in your shoes. You may have to consider changing industries in the long-term though if you think work is contributing to your declining health

    6. Hedgehog*

      Obviously, a lot depends on your work/HR/boss/etc., but I had a good experience about 6 months ago when I had to take time off to deal with mental health issues (that did have some physical side effects as well). I got a doctor’s note that explained when my treatment would be (basically I needed to go from full time to working half days three days/week) and did some research into possible accommodations in the meantime. My boss was willing to work with me to move my time-sensitive/pressing duties to another coworker and give me longer-term projects with more flexible deadlines until I finished treatment. I went down to 30 hrs/wk (so I could keep my health insurance) and supplemented any missed hours with sick/vacation time. It worked out well for me and I just started back at full time on May 1! I also will add that the initial conversations were really hard and uncomfortably vulnerable, but my boss was fantastic and consistently reiterated that my wellbeing should be my priority and they were willing to work with me. My wish would definitely be that everyone be met with the same level of grace and understanding as I was.

    7. Pool Lounger*

      Not sure what treatment your doc wants to try, but I once had a doc recommend a mental health treatment he said would take a few hours after each session to recover. Turned out that for me it actually took over 24 hours to recover and even then I wasn’t fit to work. If you think this might be the case with your treatment I’d try for fmla or a leave of absence.

    8. By Golly*

      I’m a manager and I just helped an employee take FMLA for mental health treatment. It is totally doable, and did not require her to disclose anything about her health to anyone (theoretically, she wouldn’t have had to disclose to me, either, but I was the one who suggested the FMLA for her after a lot of conversation about mental health). She did have to get a doctor’s certification, but again, it just says that she needs X time off. It can be hard to see it in the thick of organizational disfunction, and a culture of overwork, but still, generally, people really do want to help in these situations. Don’t let yourself believe that there is no way out.

  11. Jane ‘I can speak for myself…’*

    I have a colleague who is relatively new. I’ll call him Fergus. He has been with the company around 6 months. I’ve been here for nearly 3 years and have been successful in my job. I have more than 20 years of experience. He has slightly more experience but we are peers. We have similar roles in sales. We both report to the same person. Fergus seems like a nice enough guy, but lately he has developed a habit of speaking for me. I politely asked him not to do that, and while he got kind of defensive (e.g. ‘well I just didn’t want to sound like my opinion was the only one that mattered…’ etc.), he stopped for a couple of weeks. However, on a call with our senior leadership this week, he did it again. Our head of marketing mentioned that this year there won’t be much emphasis on conferences due to the continued pandemic and the fact that they won’t be consistently well-attended. It wouldn’t be the best investment of the company’s time and money at this time. I was happy to hear that because I am not yet comfortable traveling or attending large events like conferences since most people end up disregarding COVID safety measures at these things. But then Fergus chimed in ‘but we can still go, Jane and I.’ Fergus knows that I’m not comfortable traveling or attending large events right now. I have been successful this whole time without the need for conferences anyway. Our boss and senior leadership respect my stance on that. Yet Fergus keeps bringing up conferences and in-person meetings that would require travel. I didn’t say anything on this latest call because I didn’t want to make it ‘A Thing’ in front of everyone. But I’m not sure what to do about Fergus. I’ve already asked Fergus to not speak for me. He backed off but then started again. He seems to panic when he feels like he isn’t making enough sales and then tries to do extra things to make himself look good, like attending a conference (even though he has said he isn’t entirely comfortable going) or volunteering for something. That would be fine if he didn’t drag my name into it whenever he did this. I really wish he would stay in his own lane and respect my boundaries. Has anyone else dealt with a colleague like this? What did you do?

    1. kbeers0su*

      I wouldn’t be too concerned about “making it a thing” because it’s actually Fergus who is making it a thing. You’ve told him to stop, he heard you and did, and now he’s doing it again. The next time it happens, I would just speak up in the moment- “How weird for you to speak for me Fergus. You and I have discussed that I’m not comfortable going to conferences yet. Did I say something recently that made you think I changed my mind?” Maybe calling him out in front of people (politely, acting somewhat concerned/confused when doing so) will get the point across to him.

      1. TangerineRose*

        Or maybe “Actually, Fergus, I’m not comfortable going to conferences yet.”

        1. TangerineRose*

          But yeah, if he speaks for you, and he’s not accurate, correct it. In front of everyone there if needed.

      2. Yikes*

        That response is harsh. Think about the person on the receiving end of your words. Making someone look like a fool in front of their coworkers isn’t just cruel, it also makes you look like a fool as well. No one is going to end that call and say “Wow, look at Jane, she really stood up for herself there. How cool of her!” They going to say “Wow, Jane really embarrassed Fergus in front of everyone for no reason. How unprofessional and uncalled for.”

    2. Artemesia*

      That comment was time to say ‘speak for yourself Fergus, I am not comfortable with traveling to meetings at this point in the pandemic yet and so I support (big boss’s) policy here.’ You asked him privately; he ignored you; so the next time he does this publicly make it a little thing right then.

    3. Josephine*

      I’d suggest asking him, very clearly, one more time not to speak for you, and point out the recent examples where he did. Then, if he does it again, go ahead and make it “a thing” in front of everyone. His behaviour is what’s making things awkward, not yours. You have a right to speak for yourself and to stand up for yourself, especially after you’ve given him two opportunities to stop.

      1. Annie Moose*

        This is my advice. Talk to him again, maybe a little more sternly than last time, citing specific examples like the comment about in-person conferences. He shouldn’t be doing this at all, obviously, but sometimes folks who overstep boundaries will test them to see if you’re serious about them or not. A second blunt conversation may be enough.

        But whether or not you talk to him again directly, I would definitely start correcting the record in meetings and on calls and such. You don’t need to make it this big argument where you start screaming at Fergus or something of course :P but just going “actually, I won’t be able to X” or “actually, I haven’t decided about Y yet” or whatever else fits the situation can be a good way to correct the record and set a boundary with him. If he reacts badly in the moment and tries to argue in the middle of a meeting, well, that’s going to reflect much worse on him than on you!

    4. Observer*

      <i.I didn’t say anything on this latest call because I didn’t want to make it ‘A Thing’ in front of everyone. But I’m not sure what to do about Fergus.

      Start calling it out in the moment. For instance “Jane and I can go” gets “Actually, I don’t think I can.” If necessary, depending on the circumstances you might also explicitly add “Please don’t make assumptions about what I can / will do, or speak for me without checking first.”

      That’s not making your stance on travel, for example, “a thing”. Nor is it making the fact that he’s talking for you “a thing”. But it’s making what he’s doing clear. Keep in mind that if you don’t call it out you could easily get boxed in to stuff that you didn’t agree to. Which may be his intention. But, even if it’s not, there is no reason to allow that to happen and it could easily happen.

    5. Midwestern Scientist*

      Enforcing your boundaries isn’t “making it A Thing”. You’ve spoken to him privately, which imo is more than courteous on your end. Speak up in the moment! It may still feel rude/awkward but that’s on him not you

    6. Bagpuss*

      I think that all you can do is speak up in the moment.

      The first time you can, if you wish, frame it as a misunderstanding / him being forgetful (e.g. “Oh, I think Fergus has misunderstood -he and I spoke and I made clear that I am not yet comfortable with attending that kind of large event and I share [manager]’s view that due to the numbers likely to have similar reservations, so I’m not convinced that it would be a good use of our resources to attend ”

      However, you don’t have to soften it, and it would be fine to say “I just need to jump in – Fergus, please don’t speak for me. As you know, because we spoke about it, that’s not my view, and I’ve asked you before not to put words into my mouth”

      I don’t know how you worded it when you spoke to him before but you could, if you anted, have another, and very blunt, conversation with them. “Fergus, I’ve spoken to you before about not speaking for me or putting words into my mouth. You did it again when you suggested that you and I go to [event] ,even though I had discussed that with you and you know that I am not conformable with , or willing to, travel or attend large events. This time I chose not to embarrass you by calling you out in front of Management, but you need to stop misleading people by suggesting that you are speaking for me, or implying that I agree with your position when you know that’s not the case, or where e haven’t discussed it and you don’t know my position.. I am quite capable to putting forward my views myself. I spoke to you before nd told you to stop, I don’t understand why you are ignoring that request” .

      If he pushes back and says ‘I just didn’t want to sound like my opinion was the only one that matters’ maybe call that out – “Fergus, how is you putting words into my mouth and implying that I share your views, when I made clear to you that I don’t, NOT making it all about your views? “

    7. Everything Bagel*

      You’re not making it a thing by calmly saying that you actually disagree and are glad conferences are being put off, or whatever the subject of discussion is. Maybe if you speak up for yourself in the more often your boundaries will be more clear to him. And if he keeps doing it, just keep contradicting him.

    8. Scott*

      “Hey, Fergus! Remember when I asked you not to speak for me? Yeah, you’re doing it again. Please stop.”

    9. ArtK*

      Fergus is depending on you being afraid of making it “A Thing.” He will continue to walk over you as long as you let him. I agree that he’s the one making the “Thing” here. I agree, too, with the advice to call him out, publicly, every time he does this.

    10. Librarian of SHIELD*

      You don’t actually have to “make it a thing” if you don’t want to. You can be calm and friendly and polite but still hold your ground. The next time he tries to speak for you in front of other people, try something like this:

      Fergus: Jane and I (insert thing he thinks here).
      Jane: Oh, actually, I was thinking something more along the lines of (insert thing you actually think).

      When you do this, you’re not talking to Fergus, you’re talking to the other people in the meeting. You’re not confronting him or calling him out, you’re just clarifying your position on the topic. Unless Fergus is a completely oblivious jerk, he’ll eventually realize that speaking on your behalf only makes him look silly and if he keeps pushing, he’s going to be the one with a reputation for making a scene in meetings, not you.

    11. MdmeAlbertine*

      Alison’s wording comes to mind: “Fergus, we’ve talked about you not speaking for me before, and in this latest meeting, you volunteered me for a conference. This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about, what is up with you doing it again?”

    12. Storm in a teacup*

      I think by rebutting him in the moment and jumping in with your view, you’re not making it a thing but continuing the conversation. For example ‘actually I’m not comfortable travelling to a conference and agree with XX about their lower value in the current climate’
      But by leaving it to address separately later and getting irritated, it does become a thing.
      I would make a point of reinforcing your view in the moment. It probably feels a bigger deal to you because it is! But remember another person’s perception will be different because they won’t have been privy to the internal monologue you’ve got going on about this. Also the more you do this, the easier it is to do again the next time

    13. Dark Macadamia*

      Speaking up in the moment wouldn’t make it A Thing unless you decided to have the whole conversation with him right there. Just “oh, I’m actually not comfortable traveling right now” is a completely reasonable thing to say (and beneficial, let’s please normalize the idea that the pandemic isn’t over and some precautions are still a good idea!) and doesn’t require an additional “Fergus we talked about this” confrontation. Depending on how he reacted in the moment, you could then follow up with the big picture but it’s really not needed in this example.

    14. MaryLoo*

      Speak up in the moment as others have suggested- “actually I disagree, I would rather do blabla because of xyz”.

      Then, also, afterwards, approach Fergus privately and be extremely blunt: “Fergus, we had this discussion before about you speaking for me. It is very inappropriate for you to be telling people what MY thoughts or ideas are. You agreed you wouldn’t do so, but in today’s meeting you did exactly that. What’s going on?”

      If he gives you his usual line, tell him “Fergus, this is completely unacceptable. The next time we’re in a meeting and you speak for me or you tell people what I think, I’m going to call you out on it on the spot, in front of everybody. Do you understand?”

    15. noface*

      I would totally call it out then and there:
      Fergus chimed in ‘but we can still go, Jane and I.’
      you: Fergus, don’t speak for me. I’d prefer not to go, if that’s possible.
      That’s not making a thing about it, it’s correcting misinformation then and there. No different than if Fergus said: “we sold 50 red llamas”, and you immediately corrected with “No, we sold 25 red llamas and 25 red alpacas”. There’s no emotional weight, just correcting facts.

    16. Dinwar*

      You’re a lot more polite about this than I would be. I loath people speaking for me, unless they have a right to do so (like my boss saying “Dinwar can do X next week”–it’s his job to tell me what to do, after all).

      Something I read once that bears on this: Every time you walk by a mistake you set a new, lower standard. In this context, every time you allow your coworker to speak for you you are telling him that it’s okay. Call him out, publicly, every time. Doesn’t have to be aggressive, at least not at first–a quick “As I’ve made clear before, I’m not comfortable with in-person meetings yet.” Professional, make it about you, but make it clear that this isn’t open for discussion. If he still doesn’t get it, be more aggressive. Off the meeting tell him that he is NOT to speak for you without consulting you before the meeting.

      You should also send him an email, copying your supervisor, stating that he is not to speak for you unless you have previously agreed to it. Put it in writing, and make sure the boss is aware of it. And every time he does it send the email again.

    17. Workerbee*

      It’s worth it to remember that the jackholes and wilfully obtuse among us have made it their mission to stay that way, which is where we get the “But I don’t want to make it into A Thing” feeling when in fact we should very much be speaking up for ourselves, and just as much if not more than those types who are invested in doing it for you!

      You’ve tried all the societally-approved (and fostered by the above) methods of politeness, speaking privately, etc. It is now time to be your own best advocate, not theirs.

    18. Esprit de l'escalier*

      Another in-the-moment reply that is blunt, but that’s what is needed now: “If anyone is taking minutes of this meeting, please correct what Fergus just said. He said ‘Jane and I are willing to go.’ That is not true. The correct wording would be ‘Fergus is willing to go to conferences, but Jane is not. She agrees with X that this isn’t a good use of our resources….’ “

  12. Anonymous for this*

    Hi!
    I applied to a job in early April – honestly forgot about it in the interim before getting an email from the recruiter wanted to set up a call with the hiring manager. I got the email Monday and replied Monday night.

    The dates and times listed for me to choose from are this Monday and Tuesday of next week. I haven’t heard back – do I email the recruiter? Hold tight?

    It wouldn’t be that big of a deal except for needing to make sure I’ve got childcare for a time I typically don’t need it. Thanks!

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I don’t think it would be out of line to email the recruiter today, since it’s possible they have you scheduled for Monday. Good luck!

    2. Purple Cat*

      Definitely email the recruiter! Call if you have their number since it’s closing in on the deadline.

    3. MacGillicuddy*

      That’s a long time to not get a confirmation. I’d email again, state the times you chose, and add something like “I haven’t heard back from you. Please confirm which of these times the call will take place, so I can make sure everything is cleared on my end, as my schedule tends to fill up fast”

    4. anonymous73*

      If you have the recruiter’s number call them. If not, email them back and explain that you need confirmation of the interview to setup childcare and if you don’t receive it by X time, you won’t be able to make the time you confirmed on your end.

  13. Edges of burnout*

    All: What mental health resources have your workplace implemented that WORK? We are looking for regular grief counselors, meditation, PTO, any helpful ways to relieve burnout. We work in a nonprofit space that unfortunately deals with gun violence and many of our staff deal with traumatic stress. We have set PTO that includes sick/vacation/holidays and a pretty old-school environment, so I want to make suggestions that could actually be implemented — plus a few radical thoughts as well. Help!

    1. Elle*

      Have you asked the staff what they need to feel better supported? In the non profit I’m at we just had a company wide survey that asked some of those questions. A month later management followed up with results and next steps. Increased salary and more management training so staff feel supported came up a lot.

      1. Elle*

        I should add that we also work in a field where staff experience trauma. The survey showed staff feels the supervisors are not equipped to help their teams process the trauma, which is leading to high turnover and burnout.

      2. OP here*

        Thank you! I have less hope for a survey because we are pretty small, and we have a top-down issue where even surveys of this kind are overseen by leadership. (Ex, leadership thinks that the best way to reward people is through in-person meals or gifts, even when a day off has been requested, and the surveys turn into “We want to thank you for your hard work! Would you rather have a lunch at X or Y location?”)

        HOWEVER, your suggestion makes me think that we could do a more informal survey of thoughts and suggestions and then propose that to leadership to try to pry open the door.

        1. Elle*

          It took a change in leadership and a lot of turnover for the survey to come about. In exit interviews staff have been vocal about what is causing burnout. I’m not sure what your insurance situation is but our leadership send a lot of reminders about the mental health resources offered by our insurance. They also schedule optional workshops to review these benefits.

    2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      This will never be implemented but I’d look at workload as well. Any ” wellness day” bandaid may reduce morale as it is an insult.

    3. Miel*

      Take it with a grain of salt, but I’ve heard of making mental health days available, and also some sort of in-the-moment/ onsite space/ time/ resource to decompress after a tough interaction.

        1. Nesprin*

          Weird suggestion but there was a planet money podcast about how a company (spot heros maybe) reduced their call center burnout and turnover- they had a decompression room+ permission to use it, time off+ enough coverage that people could actually take time off, and built a culture of celebrating their burnout prone positions.

    4. Good Luck*

      Have not used this for staff, but for myself — EMDR. I have PTSD and have experienced trauma, and it worked for me where other things had not. The Veterans’ Administration uses EMDR for PTSD and considers it effective (they have a sub-site about it). Psychology Today’s website has a list of practitioners though you may find one by asking around. And many thanks to you and your organization for doing important work.

      1. Good Luck*

        p.s. Since you are a nonprofit you may find someone who is willing to help for free.

        1. OP here*

          That’s a good thought. I’ve done EMDR myself and it has been excellent. I will definitely consider local practitioners.

          1. Peachtree*

            This is overreach for a workplace (IMO) as someone who has also done EMDR … it’s an intense process and it may be several weeks/ couple of months.

    5. DisneyChannelThis*

      Do you have a calm down room? A place where people can go meditate and just relax during the day? Our building has one and its bookable in the calendar by 15min intervals. It has a projector with a nature landscape and a comfy couch and dim lights. It’s really helpful, and I think it just helps knowing there’s a place to retreat to if you need it.

    6. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Do you already have an EEP company that you contract with? Whatever your org offers as far as counselors or programs, really should be administered through a separate company IMO because people don’t want their employer to be involved (or even the possibility of being involved) in their mental or physical health. I think that’s why a lot of in-house wellness programs fail.

      2. Sloanicota*

        Yeah, a good EAP and also I’ve never worked for a company that had good insurance coverage for mental health. It’s always super hard to find counselors who take your insurance that have any availability and it’s difficult to find someone you click with. If there was any kind of rider you could buy or FSA type program that would let folks access therapy easier, that would be great!

    7. Midwestern Scientist*

      Make sure you are staffed well enough that people can take their PTO without feeling guilty. If your culture (as is common in these spaces) lays down a guilt trip for people taking time off, work top-down to change that

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        This is my suggestion as well. If you really want people to take the time they need to recover from stressful situations, make sure they know there are enough people on staff to cover the workload and they’re not leaving anyone in the lurch by taking time off.

    8. Sleepy cat*

      Ditch the meditation which is NOT suitable for trauma. Get external trauma experts in to do regular supervision.

  14. Moving Up*

    I am currently a teacher and I have been interviewing to move up to administration.
    My question is, how do you know when you are ready to become a manager? I have done formal mentoring and had student teachers, but I have never truly done any of the admin stuff (people or paperwork) and I don’t know how to know if I am ready or have the skills to be successful.

    1. Rara+Avis*

      Your mileage may vary, but I am a teacher and did a minor admin job (at a summer camp) and HATED it. All of the headaches (discipline, angry parents, bus problems, etc.) and none of the joys of teaching. On the other hand, I have a colleague who loved teaching but always knew she wanted to do the admin end, and moved up 3 or 4 years ago and loves it.

    2. Irish Teacher*

      Have you ever “acted up”? I don’t know if you would use that term? It basically means covering for a principal or deputy principal. We’ve had a LOT of people do it over the last year as our principal was out sick and then decided to retire and there was a bit of a break between the time she left and our new principal took over. The deputy acted as principal and a number of people took turns acting as deputy principal for a couple of weeks.

      I know I would HATE to be a principal or deputy principal. Not my thing at all. I feel like Rara + Avis, that is seems like all the worst parts of teaching without any of those I love. But other people feel differently. A friend and colleague of mine left because she got a job as a deputy principal and she loves it.

      1. Moving Up*

        I have loved the mentoring and planning portion. I haven’t had much of the other experience, things like budgeting and fundraising…that scares me more than parents and discipline!

    3. Current Admin*

      I’m an admin (Vice Principal), and I’ve run a leadership series for folks looking to move from teaching to admin for the past few years. In the first session, I always recommend folks deeply explore the types of admin roles out there and the key functions of the job (coaching, assessment administration, school operations, supervision, etc.) and then reflect on when they’ve demonstrated those skills in their current position. It helps if you have familiarity with the school or district structure; for example, my school has an operations manager so I spend most of my time in classrooms and on instruction/culture–I don’t touch budget, facilities, breakfast/lunch, etc.

      If you have mentoring and student teaching experience you can probably speak to coaching and instructional leadership, and you might want to think about how you’d sell (or develop) your skills in organization, delivering feedback, and strategic decision making.

      This is my (somewhat) abbreviated answer–hope it helps!

  15. Marketing Unicorn Ninja*

    I struck a blow for wage transparency this week, and I’m super-proud of it!

    I work in an education-adjacent field, where our salaries are stepped based on education and years of experience. We’re hiring for a bunch of positions in one field, and the department head asked me (I head up our graphic design and marketing team) to design a job advert. She didn’t initially include the salary, and was resistant because ‘it depends on experience and education.’

    That did not fly with me.

    I pushed back and said, ‘What’s our absolute bare-minimum salary?’ I got that number, and it’s in the job ad on our website and the graphic we’re posting to advertise the position elsewhere.

    I report to the Assistant Executive Director, so I filled him in on this, and his response was, ‘Good for you! That has to be mandatory going forward. If you get pushback from department heads or HR, tell them the ED and I require it, and if they want to further discuss it, they can call us.’

    It’s one job advert in one industry, but I oversee advertising for my whole organization (600+ employees), so I feel better knowing that going forward, we will only be posting jobs with salaries and benefits clearly outlined.

    3. College Career Counselor*

      Well done! I’m seeing some salary transparency in listing salary ranges, especially from Colorado these days which just made it mandatory in the job listing. And for remote jobs, I’m seeing what they would pay someone who lived in Colorado. So, every little bit helps for salary transparency!

      1. Purple Cat*

        And Fist Rage at the companies who say the job specifically excludes people from CO so they don’t have to include the salary.

  16. Goose*

    Any advise for writing your own performance review when you haven’t been at the job 6 months? All of the HR instructions were encouraging problem-action-result based review, but for 90% of my work I’m still on the action step. I haven’t completed any projects because my projects are all long term. I also didn’t get any goals when I started because my manager started a month after I did.

    1. Hanani*

      Perhaps problem-action-anticipated result? Emphasize what you’re doing and where it’s likely leading, with something (best practices, previous experience, etc) to back up the idea that your actions would lead there?

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Use the results section to highlight what you have completed so far. Example:

      Problem: need a new assembly line to make 100 widgets/week
      Action: identify machines and operators needed, get design approved by TPTB, order machines, hire operators, source widget materials, etc.
      Results: identified we need X, Y, and Z machines, and 5 operators. Design has been approved by TPTB. X machine has been installed, Y machine has been ordered. Drafted the job description for one of the operator positions.

      It doesn’t feel as good as being able to say “the new widget assembly line is up and running, producing 100 widgets every week” for Results, but it does show that you are making progress. You can also add “expected completion date [Month Year]” to the Results section.

    3. Yup*

      Do you have to do a full one? Most (bigger corporate) new positions that I’ve had where there’s no flexibility to not submit something, if you’ve been in the role fewer than six months, the language is something like “Not enough time in role to assess, progressing towards X targets/goals”. Reiterates your newness, but also highlights what you’re working towards.

    4. PeanutButter*

      When I’ve had to do that for things that are too early to have actual results, I’ve put what metrics I will measure results by, and what measurements will indicate success, etc in that section.

  17. Admin/Student*

    I need some help/advice on how to handle a potentially awkward situation at work. I work in higher ed in the US as a departmental admin. My duties include scheduling classes and rooms, which means I work will all our faculty. I also provide an admin support needed for difficult situations with graduate students. One of the benefits of my job is that I can take classes and earn a degree for free. I started a master’s degree in my current department in Advanced Llama Grooming when I was working in another department on campus. After I had been in my master’s program for a couple of years, I took a job in the department that offers my program. Overall, it’s been very smooth and no issues, until yesterday.
    I’m in Llama Grooming Analysis and the class has been very rough, to say the least. It got so bad that our Advance Llama Grooming director and the department head had to have an emergency teaching intervention, assign a new teaching mentor to the faculty member, and hire tutors on the department’s dime for the class. I have never seen anything like this happen in academia. Well, we had our final list night and long story short, I believe the faculty member retaliated against us for complaining. I feel like I’m stuck between a rock and hard place. If I fail this course, I want to file a grade appeal because I truly believe he used the final to retaliate. However, I know that by doing that, I’m afraid I’ll be inviting professional repercussions because I will still have to work with the faculty member.
    Has anyone been in a similar situation? How should I handle this? I won’t know my final grade for about a week and half. I will, of course, be professional with this faculty member at all times, regardless of how everything goes.

    2. kbeers0su*

      Interesting. You actually have dual protections here, because you’re both a student and a staff member. So as a student you university likely has a formal complaint process for academic issues like this. It’s important you look into it ASAP because it’s usually a short time window to file the complaint after it occurs, and they usually have to be resolved within a certain number of days of the end of a semester so grades can be final. You also have the other students in the class to help support this, so it doesn’t have to be you front and center on the complaint. You could email your fellow students something like “I heard others discussing this concern, and I want you to know there’s a process to file a formal complaint- here’s how you do it. It’s best if multiple/all students go in together on the complaint.” See if you can get someone else to take lead, which will deflect some attention from you. But you also have protections, obviously, as an employee. You may even want to proactively raise the possibility of professional retaliation by this faculty member to someone (supervisor, HR, ombuds) so that it’s document that you have the concern BEFORE anything can happen.

      1. Eeyore's Missing Tail*

        I didn’t think about protecting as both a staff member and a student. The way our rules are laid out, we can only appeal final, end of course grades. So we have to wait until grades are in before we can start the process. I shared the info on how to do the appeals with my classmates last night. I used to work with this appeal in my other job. Grade appeals are an ugly business.

        I did take your advice and spoke with my supervisor, the Advanced Llama Grooming Director, a just a little bit ago. I feel so much better after doing that.

    3. Hanani*

      How’s your relationship with the dept chair, Dean, or other senior faculty members? They’re your most likely allies, particularly since HR’s ability to actually enforce any on faculty members is often lacking. After that level of intervention needed by the dept, they shouldn’t be surprised that things didn’t go well and should be more receptive to the idea that maybe the faculty member can’t be trusted to be the kickass professional you are.

      1. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

        Yeah, I would start by bringing your concerns of retaliation to the program director and department head.

        1. Eeyore's Missing Tail*

          Thanks! I reported my concerns to my supervisor, the program director.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      Well, you have a couple of factors in your favor. First, administration already knows there are problems with this faculty member. The fact that they’ve intervened is pretty big. Second, you’re not the only one affected, so it wouldn’t be just you filing an appeal, it would likely be several of your fellow classmates.

      1. Aggresuko*

        Does your campus have an ombuds department? That’s someone you could try asking for consequence-free confidential advice before you proceed.

    5. Notfunny.*

      Does your institution have an ombuds office? I would talk with them about your options.

      I would also suggest working with your peers in the class to take action together.

      1. MdmeAlbertine*

        This is exactly a situation your ombuds office is well-equipped to handle. Seconding this suggestion.

        1. Eeyore's Missing Tail*

          Unfortunately, our ombuds’ office is completely useless. I have never heard anything positive come out of that office. I did speak with our program director. He’s now aware of the situation and is monitoring. That’s all we can do until end of course grades are posted.

      2. Camelid coordinator*

        This was my idea also. I’d talk with your department chair as well if you have a collegial relationship, framing it as being concerned for all of the students in the course, not just yourself.

  18. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

    Asking any supervisors out there…

    What do you do with an employee just can’t do the job the way you want it done? Assume perfect results, 100% reliable, 100% efficient, 100% accurate, but it’s just not the preferred method?

    1. Oof*

      I don’t say anything if their work is meeting the needs and just not how I would do it. That seems a quick way to nitpick and demoralize an employee.

      1. Decidedly Me*

        Same! If the end result is all the same and nothing bad is happening by doing it differently, then I don’t see a reason to bring it up.

        Actually, I would probably ask why they do it way B rather than way A – I may learn something :)

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Give them a raise/promotion for finding a new way to get better results?

        I’m using older techniques, not new ones. I suspect this is going to arise on my performance review and I’m trying to get out in front of it, at least mentally.

        I’m having a really hard time finding analogies that work without delving into programming minutiae…
        The best I have so far are:
        An employee that can’t wrap their mind around contractions and so does not use them.
        A volleyball player (volleyballer?) who can score aces serving underhanded but doesn’t overhand serve effectively.
        An employee who mangles the Quadratic Formula but completes the square trivially.

        1. Hiring Mgr*

          I guess my question is why is it a problem in the first place, in a way that would come up negatively on a performance review?

          I can’t think of an example from my own work where using a different method but producing equal or better results would be frowned upon.

          1. LDN Layabout*

            If it’s programming, you need to be producing work with an eye to it being worked on by multiple people down the line.

            This is essential for a variety of different reasons and if something works but isn’t done the way it should be? It can cause massive issues down the road.

            1. sapphires and snark*

              I thought of this, too, but OP phrased it such that it was their preference, not that failing to follow procedures could lead to Big Problems.

              1. LDN Layabout*

                OP’s clarification and P’s comment below pretty much lay out the issue and it is one that can’t just be brushed off. If the boss wants the code in a particular format/style and wants to keep coding consistent, they’re allowed to ask for that.

                1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                  Yea.

                  I know option #1 is for the supervisor to value the good over the discretionary bad, but that’s out of my hands and suggesting it will end poorly.
                  I know option #2 is for the supervisor to just relegate the employee to unimportant work–it should be to manage the employee out, but I think he’ll get overruled if he tries that (and I’d even argue he should be able to manage me out).

                  I was hoping in asking that there’s a 3rd option I’m not seeing to suggest.

                  It’s not about legibility of code. Yes, I have that reputation from the 8086/80286 days when I wrote for the processor, but I’ve long learned my lesson that processor cycles are cheaper than straight jackets and padded walls. Until joining this team, legibility of my code was the one thing my peers would uniformly praise.

                2. LDN Layabout*

                  I think this is one of those things that will differ from manager to manager in terms of how important they find it but I can’t argue that either view is wrong, if that makes sense? Which really does suck for you and I appreciate that, but some people really are sticklers for consistency and it’s difficult to argue against it.

                  I think option 3 might be to take some (more, because I’m sure you already have) time to look at where you’re hitting the wall with lambdas. It can be harder, especially if you’re very good at something, to force your brain into working another way especially if your subconscious is going ‘but x way would be quicker and I know how’

                3. Willis*

                  Seems like the obvious Option #3 is doing it using the preferred method. I can’t really tell if you’re not doing that because you can’t, or cause you don’t want to, or cause it takes longer. If it’s the first scenario, maybe there’s some opportunity for training if it’s the first scenario. If it’s the second or third, you may just need to comply if you don’t want to be managed out.

        2. P*

          I think unfortunately the exact minutiae may be relevant.
          E.g. if it’s that they want you to use Lambdas, then their issue is that your code would be less readable / not match the style of the rest of the codebase written by your colleagues. They could argue it’s harder to upgrade and debug for example.
          If they’d rather you did TDD but you write tests after, then as long as all test cases are covered by the time you submit your code drop (i.e. 100% same result as doing TDD) there shouldn’t be a problem.

          1. LDN Layabout*

            +1

            The end product working is never the be all and end of programming/coding, not following the process could be minor or it could be a major pain in the ass for people working with you.

            1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

              If my peers have a problem with my modus operandi, they’re doing a National-Security grade job of hiding it. All I get is praise in our code reviews and joint sessions, and they’re not shy about criticizing each other’s code.

              1. pancakes*

                Your question was about a supervisor rather than peers, though, yes? If your supervisor wants a certain process, I don’t think it’s going to be helpful to point to other, less senior people who don’t mind not seeing that process.

                1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                  True, but the concern claimed is how it impacts my peers, who it’s not negatively impacting.

                2. pancakes*

                  Do you plan to tell your supervisor that he’s misunderstood your peers’ needs? That seems like a risky approach to a performance review to me, but you’re going to know your own workplace better than people here.

                3. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                  If there’s no evidence of it, and there is to the contrary, why would I assume it’s true?

                  Again, my peers aren’t shy about picking code apart; if I were composing hard to read code, I’d be hearing about it already.

          2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            E.g. if it’s that they want you to use Lambdas,

            Holy Underwear; how in the world did you make that connection? I mean, you’re 125% right that I can’t wrap my head around composing Lambdas and that’s the cross I expect to be nailed to, but how did you get there from what I’ve written?!

            Yea. Anything they’re doing with a Lambda, I can do with ~6 lines of 6th grade code (and I can even throw a useful exception when the data fails to live up to expectations, which the Lambdas aren’t/can’t). I can read them well enough to get the gist of it. But composing one is like trying to compose in Greek and my supervisor is enamored with them because they result in shorter code.

            1. Observer*

              my supervisor is enamored with them because they result in shorter code.

              And why does that matter? I’m not being snarky here. Is this just his preference, or does it actually matter? There are still situations where the compactness of code really matters, so in that case I would side with the director. But if that’s not the case and you’re code is readable and properly formatted and commented, I’d leave it alone.

              1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                I can’t speak to why. Truth be told, part of my journey as a programmer has been to accept that code length and legibility are usually at odds with each other, and to embrace that my code can be easier to read when I use simpler statements in sequence.

                But he’s entitled to his opinion, and he’s been in his role for 8+ years. He’s earned some benefit of the doubt on this.

                1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                  code length and legibility are usually at odds with each other

                  That’s kind of ambiguous. I’ve come to accept that shorter, denser code is often harder to read and understand.

                  E.g.
                  String Output = Input;
                  if (!Output.Length.isEven) {
                  Output = Output & ” “;
                  }
                  return Output;

                  is easier to read than

                  return (Input & ” “).left(Roundup(Input.Length/2),0));

                  And trust the optimizer & compiler to take care of the resulting assembly code.

            2. grey anatomy*

              I spent a large part of my early career working at a company with very old coding standards, and lambdas were a complete shock to me when I moved jobs too. So I can fully sympathize. But ultimately I think you need to take the time to learn how they work properly in this case. It’s our job as software engineers to keep up with the skills required of us, taking time to learn if need be.

              Your supervisor is likely concerned that if you can’t write them, you also can’t properly read them. If I were in their shoes I would be worried about an employee who couldn’t grasp the current codebase, and had to refactor every time they made a change so the code conforms to their outdated “style”. Displaying unwillingness to learn is also not a great look.

              I promise they are actually somewhat easier than they seem on the surface though! It took me a while to get my mind to work with a slightly shifted paradigm, but once they click they will be as natural as any other programming you do.

        3. A Frayed Knot*

          If I understand this comment, you are a programmer using different (older) languages or tools and are concerned about your supervisors including this as a negative comment on your performance eval. I listen to my spouse talk about different programming styles all the time. It is a little more difficult than “It works, so let it go.” A variety of people may need to be able to read/understand/interpret what the code is doing in case others get involved in fixing bugs, making changes, etc. He takes great pride in “commenting” his code to ensure that others know what the code does (or at least, is supposed to do). Would that type of documentation help? Being able to demonstrate that you can read/understand/interpret code written by others should be helpful; it shows that you are being intentional in choosing your methods, not just taking the easy way out. So maybe serve overhand at the next volleyball game? It keeps people guessing, at least.

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            If I understand this comment, you are a programmer using different (older) languages or tools and are concerned about your supervisors including this as a negative comment on your performance eval.

            That’s more or less the situation at hand. It’s more that I write C-like code in C# than it is that I eschew the C# CLR for a real C executable.

            He takes great pride in “commenting” his code to ensure that others know what the code does (or at least, is supposed to do). Would that type of documentation help?

            I’ve adopted that modus operandi over the years–as much as it’s nice to help others, I find mine is the tuchus it pulls from the fire.

            Being able to demonstrate that you can read/understand/interpret code written by others should be helpful; it shows that you are being intentional in choosing your methods, not just taking the easy way out.

            We’ll see if being able to read and replace them passes the muster.

            So maybe serve overhand at the next volleyball game? It keeps people guessing, at least.

            I have tried updated existing Lambdas and porting them from one project to another. I invariably abandon them because I can’t troubleshoot them as efficiently or specifically as I can the alternatives (e.g. with a Lambda, I can tell you that “Phil” is not a number, but with a traditional while/for loop(s), I can tell you it’s field 1463 on line 18,762 that’s incorrect.

            The whole experience has actually convinced me that Lambdas are a fad, the Atkins Diet of Programming if you will, but that opinion is pure trivia; it does’t change anyone else’s mind or my evaluation.

            1. Lynn Whitehat*

              I’m sorry, but if you were on my team, replacing perfectly good working lambdas with for loops because you just don’t like working with lambdas actually would not be good enough. Every change takes some time and introduces some risk. While I appreciate the value of code clean-up, we’re not spending time and introducing risk to make style-compliant code non-compliant because one dev doesn’t like the aesthetics and doesn’t totally understand the code as written. That is the opposite of code clean-up.

              1. Techie*

                I agree with this. If the only way you can complete your tickets is to alter otherwise working code (that would not need to be touched if you used the preferred approach), that’s a problem. And chiming in from the QA perspective, this likely increases the scope of their work – as Lynn said, every change is a risk. They need to test that. It is distinctly possible that along with making the code itself less maintainable, all this is adding to QA’s workload.

                1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                  No, I only replace a Lambda when it’s no longer filling the need it was designed for. If it still works, why replace it–or any other line of code?

        4. linger*

          What are the strengths and weaknesses of your method vs the recommended method?
          It may well be possible to show that your method is optimal under the most commonly-occurring conditions, even if the recommended method works better under other conditions.

          A real-life example:
          Suppose you want to predict the likely learning outcome from a course when your students are already most of the way through it — you have their first 5 test scores and want to predict the last one.
          One proposed new general-purpose prediction algorithm uses a neural network model, which makes minimal assumptions about the typical learning trajectory, so, though somewhat complicated to set up initially, it’s fairly robust over a range of different timeframes.
          But over the short timeframe of a single course (which is the practical problem you want to solve), it turns out that the much simpler algorithm of linear regression, performed in Excel, makes slightly more accurate predictions.

    3. Internist*

      Unless you have specific compliance standards you have to meet in how things are done, I’d let it go.

      1. kbeers0su*

        Agreed. If the work is done, and done well, and they like how they’re doing it, why should I care?

    4. sapphires and snark*

      Let him or her keep doing their thing. I’m wondering why it’s important for you to impose your preferences when your employee is producing perfect work.

    5. rosyglasses*

      This is generally when I take a step back to identify why I want it done a certain way. If it’s just because of preference, or maybe it flows a little better between tasks, or the spreadsheet/document doesn’t look *quite* the way I would like it — then I try to back off. Everyone needs a certain level of autonomy in their work to feel truly engaged at work – so finding those spaces where they can take their own design of their work is ideal.

      However, if there are legitimate reasons that things need to be completed a certain way (e.g. other teams have notification requirements along the ways, in order to get all the work done that needs to be done you have to be extremely process oriented) then it makes sense to address.

      I think overall – we all think and process information in different ways. Things that make sense to you and are *obvious* are not always obvious to others, nor does it feel like the right flow to them. I’ve had to let quite a few of things go in order to delegate appropriately and not have all that on my plate.

    6. Hotdog not dog*

      Honestly, unless the process is more important than the result, I’d let it go.

    7. AnonAnon*

      Depends: Were you able to find out what was the employee’s rationale for not using the preferred method? Can you say what is the impact of the employee not using the preferred method? i.e. does it affect the workflow, does it affect other employee’s work, does it affect morale, incur additional financial costs, etc?

    8. Lana Kane*

      I learned to question whether preferred method actually means “this is the method, period”, or if it’s truly in the spirit of “preferred” (This is the best way but not the only way). And then, if my first thought is “this is the only way”, questioning if that’s actually true or just the way things have always been done.

      It’s possible that the method it really is The Way, because it’s proven to reduce errors and other methods have a higher risk (evcen if small). If this is The Way, then I’d be having that conversation for sure. Acknowledging the good results so far but discussing how the other method leaves them open for X errors. Or their way varies significantly that others wouldn’t be able to cover their work if needed. I’d also ask for their perspective on why they prefer to do this another way – there could be something to learn from that.

      Ultimately, if The Way is the only option, that has to be communicated. 100% results so far is awesome, but if the person is having trouble following the standard process and can’t/won’t budge, that can point towards a lack of adaptability. You’d need to be prepared though, to go down the discipline path with someone who seems to be a good staff member. How important is it to you that they do things in a specific way?

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        It was shown to me when I joined this team as “this is good” code, with (admittedly extremely poorly designed) examples of older syntax being contrasted as “this is bad.” Roughly on par with saying a well-maintained 10 year old Toyota being good and a run down 10 year old Honda being bad, completely glossing over what a well-maintained Honda and a run-down Toyota would look like.

        Other differences in my style and the code base (e.g. KNF or Allman, hungarianCamelCase or Snake_Case, etc) were presenting to me as “thou shalt conform or thou shalt fail,” but this one hasn’t yet–and those adjustments I been able to enact.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          To me, this bit differences in my style and the code base (e.g. KNF or Allman, hungarianCamelCase or Snake_Case, etc) were presenting to me as “thou shalt conform or thou shalt fail,” is reasonable on their part.
          Not sure I have enough info to have an opinion on the rest.

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            I didn’t even object; my supervisor just really doesn’t like Linux code and isn’t shy about it.

    9. Observer*

      hat do you do with an employee just can’t do the job the way you want it done? Assume perfect results, 100% reliable, 100% efficient, 100% accurate, but it’s just not the preferred method?

      I don’t get the issue here. If it’s right, why does it matter that you would do it differently?

    10. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Depends on why they “can’t” — personal preference? disability that needs to be accommodated? they revert back to their established habits because they are in a time crunch? they don’t have the skills necessary for one or all of the steps or keep forgetting? I’m assuming you have already given them ample training and documentation to follow and there’s no disability…in that case you could either let it go as not important, or put them on a formal PIP.

    11. Dust Bunny*

      If the issue is that their methods will create problems down the road as the (code?) evolves, then the results aren’t 100% efficient, or maybe aren’t 100% accurate, right? Would this mean they’re creating a coding dead-end, or at least a lot more work for the next round of people who work on it.

      I don’t know enough about this to suggest a solution, but if it genuinely is a problem then maybe reframing it as *not* a 100% workable outcome will make it easier to address.

    12. radio radio*

      How important is the method? Like, if there’s regulatory reasons for the method, then the regulation wins out of course. But if it’s just Not The Way It’s Normally Done, then I don’t see a problem.

    13. Bagpuss*

      I think it depends on why it’s not the preferred method – both why you mind, and why they are not doing it that way .
      f it’s purely a precedence on your part and the result are fine, then I’d be inclined to leave them to do it their way.
      It it needs to be done a different way, for instance for consistency in something that has to be worked on by multiple people, or where it creates problems further down the line, the I think you need to talk to them, explain why you need them to do it the different way and ask for their reasoning for using their own method – it may be that there i a workable compromise, or that it is worth looking at changing the preferred method, or that they need to do it differently due to a disability – equally, it may be that they just have a preference and were not aware that it was causing problems.

      but I think you need to be clear about whether it is actually causing problems

    14. River Otter*

      In this scenario, it sounds like you are the employee?
      In spite of all the reasons that your supervisor should not care, they do care. It really sounds like your option is to learn lambdas, suck at them for a while, and eventually get better.
      What about the other people on your team? Are they people who you can collaborate with? if they are, what forms of collaboration would they be willing to do? Are they willing to give you a hand with lambdas to help you get better at them? Are they willing to tell your supervisor that they are being unreasonable?
      I have no idea what a lambda is. I have my own ideas about what makes good code, and I tend to rewrite other peoples code to make it more efficient according to my standards for good code. I also tend to take too long creating good code when mediocre code would get the job done just as well. So, I have a little bit of sympathy for your supervisor. OTOH, sometimes if the code works, I just say eff it and move along even if it’s not good code. So, I also think your supervisor needs to learn when to unclench. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to deliver that message to your supervisor.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        I am the employee. I expect I’d get plenty of support from peers that getting the right result trumps the style points, but what would help more is understanding the (generalized) supervisor’s PoV better.

        I have no idea what a lambda is.

        It kind of looks like someone tried to graft SQL queries into C# IMWO.

        1. Annie Moose*

          Have you asked your supervisor to explain it? If you’re at the point where you believe your supervisor genuinely may give you a poor review due to not conforming to your team’s programming standards, then you’ve got to do something, not just hope your supervisor will do something! Talk to your supervisor, openly acknowledge that you’re struggling with lambdas, ask about their importance. (keeping in mind that in programming, “so all of the code uses the same approach” is a totally valid reason to insist on a particular format)

          And then practice it. Lambdas sure are weird, I agree with you on that, but they’re not totally incomprehensible. My advice would be to look through examples of where they’re used in the code and really try to grok what they’re doing as opposed to just letting your eyes skim over them. Then, when you need to write one yourself, go back to those examples and find something similar that you can use as a sample. You can learn to use them! Don’t give up on yourself!

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            Have you asked your supervisor to explain it? If you’re at the point where you believe your supervisor genuinely may give you a poor review due to not conforming to your team’s programming standards, then you’ve got to do something, not just hope your supervisor will do something! Talk to your supervisor, openly acknowledge that you’re struggling with lambdas, ask about their importance. (keeping in mind that in programming, “so all of the code uses the same approach” is a totally valid reason to insist on a particular format)

            I’m still trying to bounce back from a different instance of using an older solution to a problem. I can reliably get a thumbs up or thumbs down for a given block of code, but when I try to dig into the why’s, the reaction I get is akin to it being taken personally.

            I don’t think the rules are hard, fast, or objective. I’m pretty sure there’s some gut reaction involved.

            And then practice it. Lambdas sure are weird, I agree with you on that, but they’re not totally incomprehensible. My advice would be to look through examples of where they’re used in the code and really try to grok what they’re doing as opposed to just letting your eyes skim over them. Then, when you need to write one yourself, go back to those examples and find something similar that you can use as a sample. You can learn to use them! Don’t give up on yourself!

            As time allows, I have tried studying and tinkering with the examples in our code base. They’re temperamental, easy to break, and since I’m usually under SLA, I generally need a solution that works reliably now, even if I find myself in hot water when answering for it later.

            1. Techie*

              I think you’ve hit on it by referencing the SLA. Using non-confirming code to get the job done usually works out that one time. The problem is that it’s harder to maintain moving forward. The next person who has to touch that code will need to spend more time figuring it out. And that challenge gets bigger and bigger each time, until somebody bites the bullet and re-writes the whole thing to bring it back in line. Which may well also require more intensive testing. It’s ok if you didn’t initially know this particular approach is not negotiable, but now you do. It won’t help to dig your heels in on this.

            2. IT manager (no devs)*

              I think one option is to be more upfront with your supervisor (this may depend on your relationship). You could say something along the lines of “I understand I need to use lambdas and I am doing X, Y, and Z to make that my default but it will take time for me to adjust. However, when I’m under SLA constraints, I can’t do that yet in the time allotted. Right now, I’ve been using my current method in order to fix the issue; would you like me to keep what I’ve been doing OR should I break SLA?” And then offer to revisit how far you’ve progressed in a month or so?

        2. Lynn Whitehat*

          The style matters because people need to be able to read it later for debugging and improvements.

    15. Generic Name*

      Whyyyy does this matter? Unless they need to use your PREFERRED method because of safety or a regulatory requirement (in that if your PREFERRED method isn’t used, your company would be breaking the law), I don’t see why your preference should take precedence over their superior results.

      1. Lynn Whitehat*

        You’re writing things that other people will need to read later. Imagine you’re contributing to a cookbook. Everyone else’s recipes have the ingredients at the top. Yours put them in bold in the middle of the instructions, like “mix in ONE CUP OF MILK”.

        The recipe will work, and it’s not an objectively wrong style. Joy of Cooking does it this way. But it’s confusing for readers if you put things in a fundamentally different order than they’re used to.

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          That’s actually backwards from the situation at hand, but in the land of the mad, the sane fill the asylums.

    16. anonymous73*

      Why does the method matter? I can see some instances where it may, but if the method is irrelevant (outside of you wanting it done your way) then you need to let it go. My mom was the type that she didn’t care how something was done, as long as it got done. I think you need to adopt that mantra and focus on the results, which according to you are “perfect, reliable, efficient and accurate.”

    17. Princess Xena*

      I’m going to assume for the sake of this response that there is a good reason for the preference. If that is true, then I would reframe your thinking. He’s not doing 100%, because the formatting/style/method is part of that 100%, and it is a job expectation he is failing at. You need to frame it to him that way rather than “you’re doing great but maybe tweak this one tiny thing”.

    18. Rex Libris*

      I try not to get hung up on process wherever possible. The result’s the thing.

    19. Marvin the paranoid iphone*

      Take a step backwards: what are the jobs to be done?

      On the one hand, I’m with you. Lambdas don’t actually introduce any new functionality that can’t be done other ways. Who cares how many lines the code takes up in a compiled language? It might make a difference in an interpreted language like Python but nobody uses Python for anything seriously low latency anyway.

      On another hand, I’m still with you. There’s an argument that code that’s easier to maintain is one of our most important jobs since 80% of all coding work is maintaining existing code rather than writing new code.

      But on a third hand, I’m with your supervisor. This sounds like it’s part of an in-house style manual. I know you said up-thread that some things have been presented to you as style manual and this was not quite… but pick your battles. This is in many ways exactly like a boss who hates email and prefers phone calls – why antagonise them by making it an issue? They can legitimately ask you to work to their preference.

      And on the fourth hand, I’m still with your supervisor. If you can’t use them, you can’t debug them or maintain them, and if everyone else on the team is using them, then the 80% of your work that is rework starts to be impaired. This is a lesser version of them telling you the team’s preferred stack – you gotta work with what’s there. It takes serious political and social capital to try to change the stack and is best done with a business case that it’s in the organisation’s interests… how is it in their interests to have a person on the team who isn’t using their full tech stack?

      Sorry, I feel for you, I don’t like lambdas either, they feel to me like a way for cool kids to show off, but then I’m one for godawful sed and awk command lines so who am I to talk? This isn’t the answer I want to say or you want to hear but I think this is a time to invest your weekends in lambda videos and workshops.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        I think you get me, though I can demonstrably, reliably read them.

        I am acutely aware of my options. If my supervisor is willing to make a stand over them, my choices are too figure them out as if my life depended on it or send up the white flag and resign.

        I probably have enough cache and political capital to just state “sum qui sum” (I am who I am, and I’d sure as rain use the Latin), call his bluff and ignore it, and there would probably be enough backslash from any consequences imposed that he’d end up backing down. But that’s not the relationship I want with my supervisor, and I’ll sure as sin learn nothing new from him going forward in that scenario.

        I’m really going to have to chew on your answer because there is a lot there to consider.

        I’m also pretty sure the third option I was hoping I was just missing isn’t there. Someone would have pointed it out already.

        1. Marvin the paranoid iphone*

          If you have zero issues debugging or rewriting lambdas from others then issue #4 doesn’t apply and the balance tips back to you in terms of the merits.

          Unfortunately we can be in the right but still have to conform to a managerial preference. Does it help to view it like that transposed to something you aren’t invested in, say, time of day for meetings?

        2. pancakes*

          It sounds like you have built this up to be a conflict between your identity and your supervisor’s “willingness to make a stand,” and that seems like overly personal and melodramatic framing. Quoting Latin during a grand showdown might make sense if someone is making a very stylized movie about your employer’s performance review process, but that’s not happening, correct? You are framing this as if not using the process your supervisor wants you to use is central to your sense of identity, and it seems extremely unlikely to me that your supervisor is framing it the same way in terms of their expectations.

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            It’s not quite an identity issue. The last time I just didn’t get a feature like this–albeit on a different platform–it took close to a decade for things to click and finally compose in it. That timeline isn’t there on a team where “long” SLA are 48 clock hours.

            I “quote” Latin all the time. It’s only a dead language if you treat it that way.

            It’s possible he could just shrug and say “If prefer a lambda here, but that works well enough” and move on. I don’t need advice for *that* scenario.

            1. pancakes*

              If your supervisor doesn’t also speak in Latin aphorisms it’s going to come off as a bit pompous, which I would think would be one of the last characteristics you’d want to give even a slight appearance of during a performance review, let alone what seems to be a fairly high-stakes performance review. If you are going to be in a position where you need to ask for more time to get comfortable with this, it will likely not be helpful to simultaneously frame this as an occasion where you will “call [supervisor’s] bluff.” It seems like a more accurate description of the power balance to think of it as him calling yours, if you must think of it that way. Your employer seems to want you to do something, and you don’t seem to want to do it. Your last sentence suggests a degree of uncertainty about whether this will be a requirement or a request, and from your other comments it sounded more certain that this is indeed something your supervisor wants.

    20. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I’m in a situation like this with one of my current staff. They’ve been in this field for decades and learning new ways of doing old tasks takes a lot of time and work. They don’t understand why they should have to when the way they’ve been doing it all this time is fine. They would say, as you have here, that their work is 100% reliable, efficient, and accurate.

      But it’s not.

      Every week, we come up against at least one scenario where this employee’s commitment to doing things the old way ends up making things a lot more time consuming and frustrating for this person’s coworkers and customers. We’re doing a sort of one step forward, one step back dance about it, and they’re doing just enough right now to stay off a PIP. But at some point, either they’re going to have to commit to learning the new techniques or we’re going to have to let them go.

      Sometimes it can be easy to convince yourself that your way is fine without realizing the impact it has on the people you work with. But managing that impact is a supervisor’s job, and when an employee’s refusal to update their methods makes it harder on their teammates, supervisors really do have to act.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        I think your employee is clouding your view here. You can take me at face value.

        Ownership is citing my productivity and lack of repeat tickets in calling out the new hires on the team. My grandboss (who is ecstatic to have me in the role) is having to run interference to buy them time to grow. Iny six-plus months on this team, not a single commit has been rolled back or refactored because my logic was wrong–just once for style. Our internal customers love me because I understand the rest of the business and the consequences of half-assery in this codebase and their urgencies.

        I’m not just being tolerated; I’m moving the needle noticably, and it’s insulting you’d insinuate that on no grounds.

        1. Lilli*

          I don’t think you need to be so defensive. Librarian presented a valid perspective from a supervisor exactly as you asked and it’s worth considering even if you decide it doesn’t apply to you.

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            Well, if everyone is wrong and I’ve actually been doing a shoddy job the whole time, this whole conversation is moot and I’ll get on to my life’s work sooner than later.

            2. Annie Moose*

              I’m confused. If your work is so good that you’ve only had to change your code one time, then what’s your concern? Your earlier comments make it sound like this is something that has come up multiple times, more seriously, where you’ve been told you need to use lambdas but you find them difficult so you don’t want to/are not able to use them. Your response to Librarian paints the situation in an entirely different light.

              1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                This hasn’t come up yet, but I do expect it to at some point. I’m on eggshells when I have to refactor a lambda away because I need something more functional in the meantime.

                I’m still getting the hang of having automated garbage collection. The one change was from concatenating a string in a while loop–apparently I was taxing the garbage collector. The code worked; it could just objectively work better.

                95% has been a failing grade for me before; I won’t know if it is again until that review happens. I won’t be judged by my internal customers or peers.

            3. pancakes*

              You don’t think it’s more likely that the truth is somewhere in between “moving the needle” for the whole workplace and “doing a shoddy job this whole time”? It sounds like your work is generally very good but there’s a point of contention between you and your supervisor. Framing that as a battle between triumph and failure seems like a misunderstanding of what the stakes are.

              1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                I’m sure an objective observation would fall somewhere in the middle. If I were Librarian’s employee, I’d already be gone–in fact, Is never have been invited to join this team. When the competitor made me an offer, our leadership team would have fallen over each other to provide glowing references for me instead of countering.

                1. Lilli*

                  I’m finding your responses very confusing – the basic issue is that your supervisor wants you to use a method you aren’t comfortable using, correct? No one here can tell you whether they will accept your alternative. You need to talk to your supervisor or wait until a performance review to figure it out.

                  All this other Latin and fancy wordage about options a b and c, about how great your performance is, and how much everyone else loves you is beside the point.

                2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                  All this other Latin and fancy wordage about options a b and c, about how great your performance is, and how much everyone else loves you is beside the point.

                  It was beside the point, until Librarian wanted to take the angle that I’m Dunning Kruger and actually a poor employee. Everything else, including the premise of the question that Alison asks us to respect, is that I’m a mostly-good employee who’s just can’t wrap their head effectively around one preference.

                  I’m finding your responses very confusing – the basic issue is that your supervisor wants you to use a method you aren’t comfortable using, correct? No one here can tell you whether they will accept your alternative. You need to talk to your supervisor or wait until a performance review to figure it out.

                  In the scenario where this preference is near and dear to my supervisor’s heart, to the point where they’re willing to forsake otherwise good work for it, I would like to have an option to suggest that doesn’t take us down the road of escalating ultimata, leverage, and eventually confrontations and impasse.

                  I’m convinced at this point there is no other option to suggest if that’s how it plays out, and I’m content to just enjoy the ride as long as it lasts.

                3. linus bk*

                  I agree with Lilli — no one here can tell you what your supervisor wants. Librarian gave you exactly the input you asked for. If how you’re responding to her is how you respond to your supervisor, then you need to rethink your approach, because you are escalating this in a way that isn’t going to work to your advantage.

                4. Regular Lurker*

                  @Sola – I’m not trying to be rude and I truly hope you find a good resolution here, but the way you’re reacting to Librarian’s suggestion that your self-perception could be inaccurate is really something I think you should reflect on. I don’t think Librarian was suggesting that your performance is *as* poor as her employee, just providing an illustrative example from a supervisory POV of someone who would say their work is 100% fine when it’s not. If your goal is to avoid escalation, I think it would help to rein in the impulse to react to suggestions that you may not be aware of the full impact of your way of working with this level of defensiveness.

                5. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                  the way you’re reacting to Librarian’s suggestion that your self-perception could be inaccurate is really something I think you should reflect on. I don’t think Librarian was suggesting that your performance is *as* poor as her employee, just providing an illustrative example from a supervisory POV of someone who would say their work is 100% fine when it’s not. If your goal is to avoid escalation, I think it would help to rein in the impulse to react to suggestions that you may not be aware of the full impact of your way of working with this level of defensiveness.

                  Agreed. That definitely hit a nerve, and I do think it’s well worth the time for me to reflect on it.

                  I phrased it as I did because I really wanted to exclude the “you’re not as accurate/productive/reliable as you think you are” angle. I already know how to process those.

        2. Regular Lurker*

          It’s not insulting, it’s a realistic alternative perspective, something that you presumably came here to seek out.

          You described your way of doing things as “Assume perfect results, 100% reliable, 100% efficient, 100% accurate”. That’s a very big assumption. I would never describe my own work or anyone else’s work as 100% perfect, and I think that doing so is itself a bit of a warning sign in terms of the speaker’s ability to accurately self-evaluate. I think that someone who describes their work in such terms is probably more in need of an alternate perspective than someone who just said their method was good and got the right results.

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            Because the method is. As Marvin the Paranoid iPhone notes, the preferred feature adds no functionality that didn’t exist beforehand, and both the preferred and older methods can be performed or misperformed, accurately or inaccurately, precisely or imprecisely, etc.

            It’s not an assumption; the older method is demonstrably more proven than the flavor of the month is. I didn’t invent it.

      2. The Other Dawn*

        I agree, Librarian of Shield.

        I’m in a highly regulated industry. I file regulatory reports and also supervise those who do the same. We might be reliable, efficient, and accurate; however, there’s absolutely a right way to do these reports and create the supporting documentation for them, the support probably being more important that the report itself. We can’t just decide we want to do it a different way. So, someone on my team insisting on doing these reports and creating the support their own way is a problem and would eventually land them on a PIP.

    21. Middle School Teacher*

      Based on the additional context you provided, I think you need to follow your supervisor’s directions.

    22. SunsetBlvd*

      If there’s a reason your supervisor wasn’t something done a certain way, often it means that your method isn’t “perfect results, 100% reliable, 100% efficient, 100% accurate” otherwise it would be the preferred method. Or your supervisor is a complete micromanager. It could be both, but it can’t be neither.

  19. Puzzled!*

    I supervise a small team and am having issues with a new hire. They’ve been in this field for just a couple years and have a fair amount to learn, which is totally expected. They’re learning at a good pace and making the expected amount of errors for someone new. This issue I’m having is with their communication.

    Every second or third time we talk, their communication style comes across as bordering on or actually oppositional, judgmental, or almost belittling to me. I welcome their asking questions, our work is complicated. But when they disagree with something I’m saying, they respond with a more argumentative or brusque air than I think is appropriate, to the point where I feel wary of giving them responsibilities that would involve communication with external partners. They haven’t totally refused to complete any tasks so far, but have questioned or negated my (much more experienced) perspective in ways that have felt jarring and unpleasant/disrespectful. If I witnessed them communicate in this way with sometime on their same level in the team I would intervene. I think the way they communicate would probably result in a negative impression at most workplaces in our industry (though I doubt they would believe me if I told them that, they expressed once when I brought up a specific instance that they thought they were being direct and clear, not rude). So far I think they’re only acting this way with me. I don’t want to do them a disservice by letting them think this is acceptable behavior in a professional setting. Plus I find it unpleasant and stressful, and am not looking forward to potentially years of this behavior. I’ve brought up later or reacted in real-time to a few specific instances with varying results (in about equal measures: acceptance; defensiveness followed by acceptance; or it just going totally over their head and having to move on because we were mid-meeting with others).

    Now I plan to have a more general, big picture conversation with them about it. But I’m struggling to find language that will get through to them, given that they seem unaware of how they’re coming across, and may think that it’s only me who would perceive them this way and I’m being overly sensitive or enforcing a culture of toxic positivity or unnecessary deferentialness (I _really_ don’t think that is true).

    Does anyone have ideas for how I might approach this, or for where I can look for advice on similar situations? Thank you so much, I appreciate any insight.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Alison answered a letter a few years ago that may have some helpful advice for you (I’ll put the link in a reply comment): “I yelled at our intern” from January 23, 2017.

      The most relevant part of the reply (for your situation) is:

      simply call the email out as unacceptable and hold him accountable for it. As in: “Your email this morning was rude and sarcastic, and out of sync with the way I expect people here to speak with each other. What’s going on?” … followed by, at some point in the conversation, “I want to be clear that while you’re working here, you need to be respectful of all of your colleagues. Emails like the one you sent this morning will hurt your reputation, make people less inclined to work with you, impact the kind of reference I’m able to give you, and jeopardize your job with us.”

      This letter also has some good scripts:
      “my intern has a terrible attitude” from October 17, 2017

    2. Marie*

      Have you witnessed/received feedback about this person having communication issues with others? The conversation you have would need to be tweaked depending on if this is just happening with you vs happening with others.

      Additionally, have you sat down and really thought about your reactions to the way this person is communicating? You said they speak “in ways that have felt jarring and unpleasant/disrespectful.” Do they just FEEL that way to you, or are they objectively disrespectful? Could this just be a personality clash between you both, where you think that communication should be done one way, and this person thinks it’s fine to do it a different way? I am asking this because I was tone policed so hard in my earlier career and it took a long time to realize that some managers were just trying to knock my rough edges off and others were on a total power trip.

      That being said, you are this person’s manager and you can and should have a conversation with them about improving their communication. Ultimately, communicating with someone else is half about crafting the communication and half about making sure that the communication is landing with the intent that you want. So for your direct report, you could start with a conversation about how their communication isn’t landing with the intention that they meant it to- even if they don’t MEAN to come across like XYZ, the fact is that they ARE coming across like that and that’s a problem. That’s how I’d start the conversation with them- pointing out that when they say ABC at the meeting this morning it came across like they were defensive/whatever/whatever, and ask if that was their intent when they spoke up. Then you can guide the convo from there- let’s say they were skeptical of something that was said, and wanted to speak up in the moment. You can then guide them through how they might have crafted their message differently to land the way they wanted. Keep the focus on the intent of their communication. I think this might deescalate any hard feelings on their part about how they’re coming across, and it will be a much more objective conversation about concrete ways they can improve.

    3. Fabulous*

      Speaking as someone who once was on the receiving end of this difficult conversation, that’s just what it needs to be – a direct conversation with the employee about their tone. They may not realize how their tone comes across (as I didn’t) so bringing it to their attention would be the first step.

      It was essentially framed to me like this, “I’ve had a couple of your coworkers come to me with the same thing about the way you communicate, and I’ve seen it as well, so I wanted to bring it to your attention. When you say things, sometimes it can come across in a condescending or oppositional tone. I’m sure you don’t mean it like that, but others are starting to find it difficult to work with you because of it. When we provide consultations, we need to be aware of how we sound. You need to build trust and credibility amongst your coworkers before you can effectively consult, and you do it by presenting ideas in such a way that you don’t undercut the other person’s opinion or expertise.” My manager also referred me to training documents on emotional intelligence, effective communications, building trust, and other similar professional development courses.

    4. Purple Cat*

      Have any of your peers see your interactions that could validate what you’re seeing?
      I don’t want to discount though that as this person’s manager, your feelings and viewpoints really are enough. (I’m a woman and I know how much society tells us our feelings don’t matter, but don’t want to assume anything about you).

      Otherwise, you just need to be clear and straightforward with examples and impact. And emphasize that this is a “serious concern” of yours.

    5. anonymous73*

      Just be direct. Note examples of their communication style and how it’s coming across and why it’s problematic, and that because of this you’re hesitant to have them communicate with external partners. Their reaction will determine how you proceed because it doesn’t matter how good their work product is if they can’t communicate professionally without being a jerk.

  20. LookingKindaUnFeminist*

    Here’s a sticky situation I’m facing –
    I’m pregnant and expecting, and my doctor says that one of the best options I have to help manage a chronic condition I have is that I should exclusively breastfeed up to when baby starts eating solid foods. (No pumping allowed, no bottles, just breastfed) How on earth is one supposed to manage that and a career? Is it even possible? I work as a software developer, so work from home is an option, though my workplace really likes getting in a lot of face time.

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I think you’re lucky that you’re a developer; you should be able to work longer days (maybe 12 hours instead of 8) with breaks on (baby’s) demand. If you start early, the rest of the company/group/team would be catching up to you as you take those breaks. Especially if you’re in a position that’s more individual effort than group-work.

      I have no idea how to make that case persuasively to a supervisor that doesn’t begin in a sympathetic mindset, though.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Of course, I probably should have articulated outright that this is all in the context of working remotely from home…

    2. croissant*

      wow. I’m fascinated. Would you mind sharing what your condition is? and why would exclusively breastfeeding help your health specifically (vs. the baby’s)? I’m expecting too and have barely learned anything about breastfeeding, but I have multiple friends with kids and I’ve never heard of this recommendation before.

    3. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      I’m curious why your doctor feels pumping isn’t an option. Sure, actually breastfeeding may be the best way, but would pumping be an acceptable option B? Because no, I have no idea how a working parent could exclusively breastfeed long term.

      Some really push the idea that you shouldn’t pump until breastfed is established, and some women don’t do well with a pump. But some do, every person is different.

      1. Massive Dynamic*

        +1 here IF this is your first kid and you/your doctor therefore have no solid data yet on how your body will respond to the pump. I also have no idea how you’d make exclusive feeding vs. feeding+pumping work with a FT job. Any chance you can get a 2nd doc’s opinion on your potential medical needs, to at least expand your data points now as you make a decision on what to do?

        With both my kids I worked FT and pumped, and pumping can be planned into jobs since it should be a set, daily schedule. When I was at home with my kids, it was a nursing free-for-all, baby-led, especially before solid foods took hold.

      2. Malarkey01*

        Feel free not to answer but when they say up until baby starts solids what do they mean? Babies start to play around with solids at different times but it’s just “for fun” as the pediatricians say for a year while they continue to get their nutrition almost exclusively from milk/formula. Are they expecting that you’ll never be separated from baby for that whole first year (or in very short increments?)

        This could be very hard to manage and work. Remote gives you a lot of flexibility but without being able to supplement with a bottle if a meeting runs long or you’re stuck on a call is going to be hard especially the younger they are or if you have a slowwwww eating which one of my was (it’s also going to be really hard personally since supplementing with a pumped bottle is a lifesaving for going out for dinner, running to the store alone, all those little things you do after you get some sleep and life is semi-normal). You may want to speak with another doctor and/or lactation support services at your local hospitals or community since I’ve found a really really wide range of how doctors handle breastfeeding issues.
        Good luck and congratulations on your little one!!

    4. Artemesia*

      Work from home and hire a nanny to care for the baby during work hours except when you are nursing and then try to get the baby on a schedule which is generally possible by 6 weeks or so. BUT I am wondering exactly why the doctor thinks nursing but not pumping is somehow different in terms of managing your condition. What difference can it make if you are regularly emptying the breast one way or the other. I’d push back a little on that. Maybe there is a reason but it seems dubious.

      1. Alexis Rosay*

        This. I think it would be worth getting a second medical opinion. There is a long history of people greatly exaggerating the benefits of breastfeeding while not taking into account any possible toll on the person doing it. I mean, all power to those who enjoy breastfeeding and want to do it, but it is not the only approach.

    5. Ari*

      I think you’ll need to negotiate remote work and be able to show that you have childcare for the parts of the day where the baby is not actively nursing. I work with someone right now exactly in this situation – she has a small baby and works from home and sometimes has her camera off in meetings to feed the baby. It’s not a big deal, but our industry is pretty family-focused and I know she has in home childcare.

    6. Doctor is In*

      Biologically there should not be a difference between pumping and breast feeding. I would ask your doctor to explain.

      1. Observer*

        As someone who nursed and pumped – with little problem, fortunately, I’m going to say that this is just not the case. Pumping IS different for a lot of women.

        Sure, it’s a good idea to get a second opinion, and definitely make sure you understand the rationale, but I’m really taken aback by everyone who is SO sure that the doctor must be wrong because they’ve never heard of this.

      2. RagingADHD*

        Yeah, that’s a head scratcher. Maybe it’s the statistical impact that folks who pump at work might not maintain it as long, while demand-feeding tends to be easier to maintain long term? The doctor wants you to BF as long as possible and the “don’t pump” is practical advice to try to keep it up?

        I mean, lots of people are able to pump at work, maintain supply, and keep the baby exclusively on breastmilk for 6 months. But there are obstacles, and there is a steeper drop-off in EBF rates accordingly.

        That’s the only thing I can think of.

      3. HBJ*

        Yup. I’ve exclusively breastfed two, exclusively pumped for one. I never had supply issues with the breastfed ones. My supply dropped twice with the pump, and only once was I able to get it back up (and that was with a LOT of hard work. Pumping literally every hour). It’s not the same, at all.

        Also, I can absolutely see at least one scenario where a doctor might recommend this. Look up lactational amenorrhea method. It only works with exclusively breastfed babies. I could see a doctor recommending this for someone who is not able to use most other forms of contraceptive or to keep bad periods/ovulation at bay “naturally” for longer.

        1. RagingADHD*

          yikes, if they are hoping to rely on LAM for anything that is really a shot in the dark.

          Particularly since you can’t actually know when you are NOT in amenorrhea until 2 weeks after you already ovulated…unless you’re already pregnant, in which case you might not figure it out for quite a while.

          I bf’ed around the clock and got my period back early anyway.

          Best of luck, op! Hope everything works out well for you all

    7. The Ginger Ginger*

      This is going to sound facetious, but I mean this seriously. Does your breast know the difference between a pump and an infant? I mean, I’m just not clear on how pumping is a problem if done on a similar schedule to actually feeding the baby. What’s the actual difference to your body?

      1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

        There’s some very lose data to suggest that your body responds better to actual breastfeeding since your baby is there and biology and all that and that pimps can’t exactly replicate the sucking. Which while true, and some people do better breastfeeding than pumping in terms of production, this is not a hard and fast rule. And some providers can be a bit overzealous as others mention on pushing exclusively breastfeeding. As a lot of things that happen with being a working parent, the “best way” isn’t always practical and the next best thing works perfectly fine.

        I only ever pumped, for a variety of reasons breastfeeding was not for me, and I could have fed triplets, I donated a ton of milk. I really can’t fathom if pumping is working what medical condition would care it was from a pump vs breastfeeding.

      2. RagingADHD*

        Sometimes people have trouble with the letdown reflex on a pump, because it’s related to the sympathetic nervous system. It’s not that “the breast” can tell the difference, but your whole mind and body are in a different state of tension/relaxation when you’re with your baby or not. Some moms keep a picture of the baby with their pump to help with letdown.

        Other people just don’t produce as much on the pump. Or they get into various situations where they wind up needing to supplement the baby with formula for logistical reasons, (fridge failure, spillage, late getting home because of traffic, you name it) and it gradually starts becoming harder and harder to maintain the pumping/feeding routine overall.

        Either way, as Keeley says, if it’s working it shouldn’t matter biologically for mom’s health. So more clarification is in order.

      3. EllieMay*

        Yes, pumping is different. A baby is much more efficient at not only getting milk out of the breast, but “emptying” the breast, which is critical for keeping up your supply.

        This is especially true for women who took a bit longer for nursing to be well-established.

      4. Macaroni Penguin*

        Yes, a breast can know the difference between a pump and a baby. Essentially, babies are a lot better at removing milk than a pump is. Some bodies just don’t respond particularly well to pumping.*

        This is all a bit perplexing for the OP. In their place, I’d get a second medical opinion. It would be very hard to exclusively breast feed and work full time simultaneously. I’m guessing they don’t work in a country with a year long parental leave.

        * Based on my personal experiences

    8. Purple Cat*

      I think you need to get a second opinion. I’m not asking you to divulge your medical condition, but I can’t imagine anything where fed at breast is going to have such a dramatic difference vs. pumping. That approach is just not sustainable with a full-time job. You’d have to WFH exclusively with an in-home nanny/babysitter. Not impossible, but pretty expensive.

    9. River Otter*

      Regarding pumping versus nursing and asking for more details about why it matters, if there is something about the act of holding the baby during nursing that is beneficial to your condition, could you get the same benefit from holding the baby while you are not nursing? What I am thinking is that nursing involves both releasing milk and baby time, and perhaps you could get more flexibility in arranging your work schedule by getting the milk release from pumping and getting the baby time from wearing the infant while they sleep or what have you.
      I really do think you should get a second opinion on this.

    10. Cedrus Libani*

      Second opinion time? Biology is a weird and wonderful place, but I’ve never heard of a condition that’s improved via breastfeeding that also knows the difference between an actual baby and a fake one [a pump].

      Sometimes you will find a doctor with a pet theory. Be aware of this, particularly if there’s something about you that people have a tendency to be weird about. “Broken arm? You should lose weight / stop being trans / quit your job and stay home with your baby / etc.” If you’re not comfortable fact-checking a medical opinion yourself, find someone who can. (As a medical-adjacent PhD, I’m the one my family calls…most of the time I back the doctor up, but not always, and I’m pretty sure I saved one relative’s life in the process.)

    11. Observer*

      There is nothing unfeminist about your question. A couple of additional thoughts.

      When you talk to your boss about this, don’t be overly apologetic and don’t explain too much. What Sola outlines, along with in home care sounds like a viable plan, so if you have someone who is reasonable about this stuff, you should be able to present this.

      Do make sure you solidly understand your doctor’s rationale, and it’s a good idea to get a second opinion. There are two reasons. One is that it is true that what your doctor is saying is unusual enough that it’s reasonable to make sure that it does actually make sense rather than being their pet “hobbyhorse.” And secondly, it’s a fair bet that your boss and possibly HR are going to have a lot of questions and “suggestions”. It shouldn’t happen, but it’s still likely. Having gotten a second opinion is going to make it much easier to say something like “I know that this is unusual, but I’m confident in my medical advice, and I’ve gotten a second opinion as well.”

      1. Claire*

        I second the suggestion not to overexplain/apologize! Baby feeding is something people can have a lot of opinions about and be convinced that you could make it work the way they think it should work if only you followed their advice. I’m in a similar situation, though for baby’s health rather than my own, and I’ve found that erring on the side of less information keeps some of that “help” at bay.

    12. Bagpuss*

      I’m not in the US so am not sure whether this would work, but if this is something which your doctor is recommending as best for a chronic condition *you* have , would it be possible to request that you WFH as a medical accommodation?

      You might then be able to take breaks to nurse and start early / finish later so you are covering the right number of hours over all, although I guess you would need to have child care at home, rather than being able to use a nursery.

      I would however also ask your doctor for clarification – I am sure that there are differences between pumping and breastfeeding but equally it may be worth having the conversation about what the likely problems are if you don’t or can’t exclusively nurse, and how significant the difference would be if you were to pump for the times you can’t nurse.

      Also, while of course I hope that you will be able to do what you decide is right for you and your baby, bear in mind that not everyone is able to breastfeed or to exclusively breast feed, and if you do if up having to pump, supplement with formula, or even use formula primarily, keep in mind that ultimately, fed is best for your baby, and for you, too.

    13. No Name Yet*

      I’m with the others that I think getting a second opinion makes sense, before trying to figure out the work logistics. But actually, I’d consider trying to get two second opinions – one from a physician/provider who specializes in the chronic condition that you have, and another from a lactation consultant. My thought about talking to an LC is that they have so much experience in helping people figure out breastfeeding, that they may also have experience in people with your specific condition breastfeeding.

    14. Justin*

      My wife exclusively breastfed until solids. The answer was “she worked from home and we juggled things until he went to daycare.” But that was when almost all offices were closed in 2020.

    15. Claire*

      Two ways I could see this being manageable are 1) a WFH arrangement with a nanny who can bring you the baby when it’s time to nurse or 2) a daycare spot that’s in your workplace if you happen to have one of those.
      Do you have any maternity leave? Babies usually start solids around 6 months so if you have leave that would shorten the time you needed to WFH. It could also depend on whether doc means breastfeed until starting solids and then adding in bottles along with solids or continuing to exclusively breastfeed alongside solids until weaning. Since this is your medical condition and not baby’s ADA protections may also come into play if they’d offer an employee a WFH accommodation for other types of medical conditions.
      Best of luck!

      1. JustaTech*

        Agreeing with the on-site daycare. When my friend worked at a day care that was across the street from the hospital it supported there were (a few) mothers who would come over once or twice a day to breastfeed (but the rest of the time their babies got bottles).

    16. LookingKindaUnFeminist*

      I appreciate all of you requesting I get a second opinion, but I have had various opinions on my condition before and have been Very Disappointed (well having a baby should just cure it! and if it doesn’t your only option is to get an oophorectomy which also doesn’t always work! or maybe we can just try every birth control under the sun and see what happens! oh no, you’re allergic to them! maybe we should just to remove your thyroid! after that it was almost refreshing when I found a doctor that said there was simply nothing to be done and I’d have to buck up and deal with it. almost, but I still looked around and found my current doctor). As such, I’ve got a complicated medical history and a poorly understood condition. This does mean you get a lot of pet theories (refer to previous bad advice I’ve gotten), but that’s just because there isn’t any available data to guide treatment. The recommendation is based off my responses to previous hormone treatments and surgeries. As for the “exclusively breastfeeding” part, it was perhaps hyperbole on my part, but not by much. If you look up the chemical reactions involved in LAM birth control, you’ll get an idea of what we’re hoping to achieve.

      So it sounds like my only option is to get my work to let me work from home FT while taking many feeding breaks and get FT in-home childcare while I’m working… Or just give up if that turns out not to be an option. I’m tired just thinking about it…

      1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

        I’m sorry about that. But yeah, unfortunately if exclusively breastfeeding is the only way this can be achieved, you’ll need WFH with child care or on-site childcare you can regular access whenever you need is about the only way. Mastitis is no joke, I never felt sicker, so not going too long between feedings is so critical.

      2. honey cowl*

        I haven’t breastfed yet (currently 38 weeks pregnant) but this sounds like a whole-ass scam to me. Maybe it’s worth it to you to give it a shot, but completely taking formula and pumping off the table seems like it has a real chance to compromise your mental health. (I know it works for some people, but many people need sleep and their job in order to continue functioning as an adult human.)

        1. ThatGirl*

          With the caveat that I am not a mom myself, but I know a lot of them … there’s also the factor of what if OP can’t breastfeed? Or can’t breastfeed enough? Not every birthing parent can, no matter how good their intentions or plans.

          1. honey cowl*

            Totally agree! I’m clearly not thrilled by the breast is best propaganda as an about-to-be-new mom, so I’m probably going to have a different opinion on this than some, but this just seems like impossible pressure solely on this parent’s shoulders. I don’t know anyone who has been able to exclusively breastfeed, even people who really wanted to and absolutely killed themselves trying everything.

          2. Observer*

            If the OP can’t nurse, then that’s going to be that. But it’s just ridiculous to claim that the idea is inherently problematic because it MIGHT not be possible.

            Keep in mind that this is not a situation where someone has ridiculous ideas of what Mother is supposed to do for her baby. It’s an attempt to ameliorate a condition that Mom has that has not responded well to other forms of treatment.

            And while it is definitely unusual, it is actually grounded in what we know about nursing. Will it work? Who knows. But it’s worth seeing if she can make it happen.

            1. FeelingKindaUnFeminist*

              Thanks for the support. I really have been feeling like I’m completely off my rocker (because it is a pretty unusual medical treatment) and that I’m going to need to sacrifice either my health or my career. As it stands, I still think that the most problematic medical advice I ever received was that having a baby could cure my condition, so just about anything else seems pretty reasonable after that.

              1. Observer*

                As it stands, I still think that the most problematic medical advice I ever received was that having a baby could cure my condition

                GAG! I can’t believe that any doctor was still saying that in the last decade! Because even when that does happen (and yes, having a baby can have some interesting effects) that is an INSANE reason to have a child!

              2. Claire*

                It is unusual but you are not off your rocker (or unfeminist)! I am doing it now. It is hard but not impossible and it has helped me to remind myself that its a comparatively short period of time in the grand scheme of things.
                (I did have to reduce my hours but that was actually due to pandemic-related daycare unreliability for my older child, not the baby)

            2. ThatGirl*

              Of course! I’m just saying, I’ve heard of so many birthing people beat themselves up over not being able to breastfeed. I hope it works out for OP.

        2. Pumped Up Bits*

          This exactly. The early newborn time is so much and there is a lot of pressure to do the right thing, but breastfeeding is difficult and can be impossible. I found out I had the wrong shaped breasts with wrong nipples. Latch just wasn’t happening. I cried so much and gave my baby formula, then my partner bought me a pump and I was able to give my baby my milk, which I was happy about. But I was on the verge of depression regarding the situation, it was some of the hardest moments of my life.

          I hope OP can have the wonderful breastfeeding journey that helps with her condition but I worry for the bumps on that road that can happen.

        3. Observer*

          I haven’t breastfed yet (currently 38 weeks pregnant) but this sounds like a whole-ass scam to me.

          Nope. Now that she’s explained, yes it actually makes sense. Whether it’s going to work is an open question, but that’s a different issue.

          1. LookingKindaUnFeminist*

            Thanks for your validating comment. I definitely know that this whole thing may be a moot point if it turns out I have a lot of difficulty nursing, but I’m at that “try anything” stage of mysterious chronic illness but am trying to be conscious of the many scams that prey on folks like me that fall through the cracks of modern medicine.

      3. HBJ*

        Yea, I guessed it was something like this.

        Fwiw, I’ve heard of babies refusing bottles and adapting to nursing tons during the evenings and night and morning and not much during the day. I wouldn’t push this on a baby, but I’ve heard of it happening. But, I don’t think that would work for you anyway. The thing with LAM is that you’re supposed to nurse on demand, not on a schedule. So I think you really will need in home care and a work from home job to get the effects.

      4. Purple Cat*

        So a quick look at LAM only emphasizes that the “baby gets no other liquid or food, not even water” and not necessarily that it has to come directly from the breast.
        I hope you find a system that works for you. Much support because it feels like you are putting an incredible amount of pressure on yourself. I exclusively fed breastmilk (partially pumping) and that’s what I encourage, but, please give yourself and baby some grace. *best laid plans* and all that.

      5. Massive Dynamic*

        I’m sorry; it really sounds like you have been through a lot! FT WFH with childcare seems like a reasonable solution. I’d also encourage you to get a really good pump and see how that works as well, once your baby starts sleeping for longer stretches. Which could be a few months in anyway, and at that point you’ll already know for yourself if the exclusive breastfeeding has been managing your condition and can then see if feeding + pumping maintains that at a level you need.

        Best of luck to you!

        1. FeelingKindaUnFeminist*

          Thanks for the kind and validating suggestion. :) Now that you mention it, that’s often a good way to get started with other lifestyle-based health stuff – start out following it more strictly and see if it works and then if it does you test how much leeway you have before the effects aren’t where you want. And while I would prefer to have an actual maternity leave (my work just provides short-term disability), I’ll still have some time to figure out what works for me before I have to get back to the grind.

      6. Quidge*

        Coming very late to this, but here’s some anecdata that might help:

        1) In the UK, and my understanding was always that “exclusively breastfeeding” meant that baby was drinking only breast milk/was not supplemented by formula at all. Whether that milk was nursed or pumped out, you still have to produce a baby’s worth, and the associated hormones are still produced. (You just have to make sure you really are pumping about as much as baby would be drinking to maintain supply.)

        2) Everyone’s different, obviously, and LAM is never, ever even CLOSE to a conception-prevention method, but my cycle was lighter, more regular and less painful until I dropped to less than 2 nursing sessions a day (that’s after completely dropping pumping and not nursing during office or sleeping hours for a year with no menstrual cycle changes). You might find you see a benefit from EBF or whilst pumping at work anyway, i.e. you don’t know what your therapeutic dose of lactation hormones is until you try it.

    17. New Mom*

      Can your doctor write you a note so that you can work remotely until your baby is eating solids?

    18. Georgiana*

      It is possible to work full time and exclusively breastfeed – you just have to have the right kind of job where you can WFH with flexible breaks or join meetings with the camera off. It’s easiest if you have a nanny who provides care at home, but I’m sure you could also work it out with a nearby daycare. My child is almost 2 and has never had a bottle because they were born early in the pandemic and nursing was way less stress than pumping (for me). Everyone has different experiences with BF and newborns in general – but it’s not an impossible task if you’re in the right job. I’m a lawyer fwiw.

    19. CupcakeCounter*

      My child couldn’t latch – we spent weeks and tried every trick under the sun and it was a no go – and another friend couldn’t produce an adequate supply. Breastfeeding is ideal but not always possible.
      I second everyone telling you to get a second opinion as well as ask your Dr about the What if’s regarding supply and latch.
      As for the work aspect…figure that out when you figure out the feeding situation.

    20. Koala dreams*

      Sometimes doctors suggest things that aren’t possible in your specific situation.

      As for work, I read an article about this situation a few years ago. In the article, the baby’s father took the baby to the mother’s work a couple of times a day for feeding. It seemed quite a hassle to me, but I guess they had their reasons. Perhaps it would be easier if you worked from home.

    21. By Golly*

      I wasn’t planning to do this, but essentially did end up exclusively breastfeeding and not pumping with my first child while working. I had reasonable leave, so for the first three months I was off. Then we tried to get her to take a bottle of pumped milk for a couple of weeks and it was a total failure. So she was in day care and it was about 10/15 minutes from my office. I would feed her just before leaving for work at 7:30, then head in. My partner took baby to day care so I didn’t have to sacrifice work minutes for that, and around 11 am I’d go over for a feed. with driving and all, it was usually just under an hour. Then, go back to office and work like a maniac until my boobs were going to explode around 3. Most days at that point I’d pick her up from daycare and head home to WFH for the afternoon hours while she slept on my lap or nursed alternately. If I had a meeting that required me to be there, she could be at daycare while I went back, but 2 rounds of driving back and forth were plenty and she took a reliable afternoon nap when we got home, so that worked for me. I know I was lucky to have a very supportive supervisor, but I do think it’s possible. The part that is so far out I hardly believe it myself: I also traveled a lot for work in that year, and she came with me everywhere. I believe that I did a whole round of interviews with a baby on my lap, and a lot of stuff with a baby in a carrier. Every baby and parent are different, but I honestly found it easier to just discreetly nurse my baby while a meeting continued than to need to step away to pump. She was rarely a distraction, except to those who wanted to be distracted by a baby and were happy to see her.

    22. fhqwhgads*

      This doctor sounds very optimistic, before you even get to the part about your career. Exclusive bf was our plan, no pumping til later, no bottles, but the baby wouldn’t do it. They wouldn’t let us leave the hospital without giving her a bottle, regardless of what we wanted. So 3 days in, pumping happened and bottles happened. I know everyone is different, but given how common we found out this was…that’s a bucketful of ifs already.
      How much leave will you be taking? Assuming your baby takes to nursing right away, and you can WFH, and you start on solids as early as possible (I’ve seen some doctors say as starting the transition early as 4 mo is fine, even if the target is really 6mo), and assuming you’re taking 12 weeks of leave…you could probably make this work for a month. If you’re in the US they’d have to let you take pumping breaks if you were in office and pumping, so the nursing breaks you’d take instead are probably equivalent. Although, again, depends on the kid.

      1. Accountant*

        The majority of an infant’s nutrition should come from breast milk or formula until age one, even if you start introducing solids early.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          Sure but I thought we were addressing the question of “how do you deal with career+ must nurse and only nurse no pumping allowed until baby starts solids“.
          That said I’m also confused if the scenario in question is something like “if you pump even once, you’ve not done the thing the doc was recommending so it doesn’t matter anyway” – in which case the plan the OP described probably has a 50/50 chance of happening regardless of when the kid starts solids or what. In the question it seemed to be framed as an all or nothing thing.

  21. Anon456*

    Unfortunately, we recently had layoffs in my company as part of a M&A. While our team did not lose many people, those remaining are spooked. I don’t anticipate further layoffs anytime soon, but of course I can’t promise anything (I am not executive level). However, the people who were laid off had documented performance issues. I would like to be able to reassure people that the names of the people laid off were not drawn out of a hat, without making the people who are gone look bad. Would it be appropriate to say, “We need to respect the privacy of those who are no longer on this team, but I can assure you that the layoffs were not random.” Is that too vague to be helpful (there are criticisms that leadership is not transparent enough) or does it still paint the people who are gone in a bad light? I would hate to say the wrong thing either way, as things are a bit fragile right now. I’m leaning towards not addressing it (the choice of people laid off, not the fact that there was a layoff).

    1. Miel*

      The words you suggested sound unhelpful, to me.

      In my department, there were a couple of layoffs, supposedly due to COVID, but we all knew that those were the people who were struggling with performance. I don’t think anyone said it out loud, but we all knew it.

      1. Anon456*

        I agree… I’ve been thinking about it, and if anyone asked me directly, which I don’t think they will, I can let them know that there were a variety of factors considered by HR and we don’t have all of the information.

    2. Bagpuss*

      If you are asked or if you fell people are waiting for the other show to drop, I think you could say something like “I wasn’t involved with the final decisions but I am aware that HR looked at a range of factors such as performance, length of service, skills, disciplinary records, etc. in making the choice”

      (I live in a country where it’s normal to have a consultation process before making lay-offs, and to have fairly open information about what factors are being considered, so I don’ see talking about it as odd or invading people’s privacy, unless you say “Well of course Bob already have a written warning and the lowest performance scores in his appraisal” – where it isn’t usual to be open then it may land differently)

    3. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Is it possible for your company to lay out the process it undertakes when layoffs are necessary?

      At my recession era job, leadership held meetings to discuss what would happen if we eventually needed to lay people off (which did end up happening). We were given all the steps that HR and management would follow, how performance would be taken into account, when and if seniority would come into play, all of it. It really did help to assuage a lot of people’s fears.

    4. anonymous73*

      TBH there’s nothing you can say to your team to alleviate their panic. A few jobs ago they brought in new management and he “cleaned house”. They laid off and forced out most of the managers while others quit. They also laid off other groups of people in stages. It got to the point where every time someone saw the HR lady walking down the hall we were thinking “oh shit, who’s next.” I had already been through 2 layoffs in my career and I was a nervous wreck for a good period of time. I eventually found a new job (and then got laid off again). People are laid off for a number of reasons and it isn’t always due to their performance. And while you say you don’t expect anymore layoffs, nothing is ever guaranteed. If they come to you and ask you can be honest and say that you aren’t aware of any further layoffs, but fully reassuring them is basically impossible.

    5. Foley*

      Some friends and I were just talking about this. COVID provided many managers a great opportunity to *finally* get rid of underperformers under the guise (or truth) about cost savings.

      I feel like most knew that in addition to cost-saving measures, that underperformers were let go first or exclusively. But I feel like there’s really no way to address that. I would say, though, that probably more folks than not can put that together. The rest who can’t…I don’t know.

  22. admin for now*

    Any ideas of where to go next in my career from an office admin role? I am not looking to move on from my position as an admin assistant/office manager at a nonprofit anytime soon, but eventually it would be great to have a more senior title and make more money. I like being able to do things in a lot of different areas in my current position (working here and there with our programs, some HR functions, facilitating meetings, managing the office space, a little IT stuff, etc.). My work/life balance is also important to me. I’m just not sure what kind of career path would make the most sense from here. Also, how would I cross over into a different/more senior role?

      1. admin for now*

        Yes, I think that kind of thing would make a lot of sense for me, thanks! Do you know anything about how to break into that field?

    2. Notfunny.*

      It’s so hard to say without more information about what you like and dislike about your role, what kind of non profit you work for, and what your interests are. Are there tasks or projects that you enjoy and want to do more of? Is there a cause or issue that you feel passionately about? What kinds of things do you want to think about all the time?I would explore some of those things, and than either look for roles that have those kinds of tasks or projects, or look at organizations that work on issues that you care about and look at coordinator roles or roles a bit beyond entry level.

      1. Notfunny.*

        Or, if you like your current organization, take the opportunity to talk with your manager about what kinds of growth opportunities may be available. This is a great time to explore within your organization if there are opportunities for advancement. It’s also a good time to think about gaining some additional skills that might be helpful in the next phase of your career, whatever that ends up looking like.

        1. admin for now*

          Thanks for your reply! I have mentioned in performance reviews that I’d be interested in growth opportunities within my organization, but the ED didn’t seem to have any ideas about how that would happen. I’m working in an environmental nonprofit with mostly scientists and educators, but I have a degree in English. I like the variety that comes with an admin role, and I’m good at staying organized, paying attention to details, and not letting things get dropped. So I’m great at what I do, but I don’t have a lot of specialized knowledge/education and am still trying to figure out what kinds of skills to look at training in.

            1. admin for now*

              I’ve often thought I’d be good at that, though our PMs tend to have extensive science experience. Do you know if there are certifications or other training that would be helpful in trying to break into a project management role? I guess you already have to be a project manager to get a PMP, but it’s unclear to me what entry-level training would make me a more marketable candidate.

              1. Generic Name*

                You could get LEED or ENVISION certified. They are ways to track sustainable development (LEED is buildings ENVISION is horizontal development). They don’t require a science background per se, but are useful in environmental-adjacent stuff. My environmental consulting firm has folks certified in this stuff.

              2. OtterB*

                If you’re coming from a science organization, then perhaps something like a lab administrator? I’m not sure it would be different enough from what you’re currently doing, but often research groups can really use an admin who keeps everything running while they do the research part.

  23. Susan Saranwrap*

    I’ve been at my job for a little over two years and have recently found myself overworked with outreach activities. I’m the go-to person for these activities in our very small team and it’s taken its toll on me. It’s not a part of my job description (just yet..more on that later) and when I brought up that we need to more consideately distribute the events, I was met with defense from my team members (including a newbie who has only done two events in the past month and a half)! The whole conversation left me feeling crazy, underappreciated and insulted.

    Anyway, my supervisor —who has been on FMLA—mentioned she would like to update my job title and job description when she’s back. I’m now worried this will negatively impact me as she could update it to include more outreach activities as part of my duties. If that happens, I may have to look for another job because I’m already so overwhelmed with weekly outreach—and that’s ignoring the fact that I’ll be starting grad school in August!

    What should I do? Also, any tips on holding down a full time job and going to grad school (in-person!) full time? I can’t opt out of the grad school because going full time is a part of my scholarship and I’m currently the only income provider.

    1. ferrina*

      For the job- does your boss know how overworked you are? If you haven’t explicitly told her, she probably doesn’t know. Since she’s looking at your job description anyways, prep a document that has all of your (official and unofficial) responsibilities written down and how much time they take in a given week (or month if more applicable to your work). Then go through this with your supervisor- share which of your tasks you enjoy the most and which you’d like to offload. The supervisor may not go with what you recommend, but it’s really useful information for a manager to have (again, if you don’t tell them what you want to do, they won’t know).

      Then take your job back down to 40 hours and hold to it. Practice saying “I’d love to help with that, but I can’t due to bandwidth.” Or “Okay, if you want me to do that, I won’t be able to finish Y until [new deadline].” These will help you protect your time (since overtime will quickly cut into your grad school time)

    2. Artemesia*

      Have you indicated to your boss that you are not happy being saddled with most of the outreach? (or is there leave blocking all that?). If not, I would get in there right away when she returns with your need to back off on outreach — make sure the new job description does not dump this on you by being proactive.

      And perhaps start being unavailable for more than X number of outreaches and push the rest back on the team. People get taken advantage of because the cooperate with it. Your co-workers have learned how to exploit your good nature.

      1. MacGillicuddy*

        Don’t phrase it as “not being happy” . Phrase it as how much time it takes and how that affects your other duties. Alison has scripts for this.

  24. Wendy*

    I have a problem at work that has been bothering me, and I would appreciate some advice.

    I currently work at a fuel center for a *major grocery store chain*.

    The fuel center I work at has a total of 4 employees.

    Our employer lets you determine you availability.

    3 of us get 2 weeks of vacation.

    The 4th one gets 3 weeks because she has been with our employer for the longest.

    Last year when I took my first week of vacation, I was asked to work 2 days because two employees were not available to cover for me while on vacation. I chose to work the Saturday before I returned to work, which was the following Sunday. Yeah, it was a mistake.

    I mentioned that to the lead fuel center clerk after returning to work, and he asked me why I chose to do that since I earned my vacation time. For my second vacation, I wrote down on the schedule that I would be away for my entire vacation. That was the only way I could think of to not have to work on my vacation.

    Currently there is only 1 employee who chose to have limited availability. He works another job Monday through Friday. He chose to work the closing shift Monday through Friday, and the opening or mid shift on Saturday’s. He does not want to work on Sunday’s.

    I am currently on vacation. I go back to work on Sunday.

    Last Friday, the employee who chose to have limited availability told me the following “I was asked to close on the Saturday you are on vacation. I did not want to do that, but I guess I have to since you are on vacation that week.”

    Yesterday, I received 2 phone calls from work. I did not answer either call.

    From talking to everyone else who works at the fuel center, I am the only one who is asked to work on their vacation.

    What is the best way to approach this with store management and the fuel center employees, especially this particular employee?

    1. ferrina*

      It sounds like you’re doing the right thing. You’re taking your vacation and not working. It may help if you announce that you will be “unavailable” for the duration of your vacation (you don’t have to say why you’re unavailable, just that you won’t be able to work).

      If someone asks why you didn’t work while you were on vacation, just say “I was on vacation and unavailable to work.” If they push it, you can add “Sorry I missed your call.” Hopefully this won’t be a big deal- maybe they forgot you were on vacation.

      For the passive-aggressive employee who sent you the snarky text, no reason to address it. Hopefully they got it out of their system. If they try to bring it up, don’t explain or justify. Just “I was unavailable during my vacation.” If applicable, tell them to take their coverage concerns to the manager (assuming you aren’t in charge of scheduling or coverage)

    2. Artemesia*

      You don’t have to explain — ‘yeah, vacations mean everyone else picks up the slack, just as we do when you are on vacation.’ You are doing great. Take the time, don’t answer the phone — put it out of your mind.

    3. Tex*

      First of all, if you have good relations with all your other co workers, you could get the group together to discuss flexibility at vacations and (if) you ever cover extra shifts for people on vacations or are otherwise accommodating schedule fluctuations. If you trust everyone can have a civil conversation that will be productive, this is the way to go.

      If you don’t think that would work, you could bring up to your supervisor that the fuel center might need another person cross trained as a floater for the very occasional times no one is available. Maybe that person gets a guaranteed shift or two a month just to keep current on the operations.

      1. Wendy*

        Considering the employee who chose to have limited availability also mentions “I have more seniority that you as well as the fuel center lead I helped train” whenever I am asked to mention to him anything work related for him to do by the lead or by store management I would rather suggest a floater instead.

        1. Librarian of SHIELD*

          Okay, that guy sounds insufferable and you have my blessing to completely ignore him when he decides to hassle you during your vacation.

    4. Observer*

      What is the best way to approach this with store management and the fuel center employees, especially this particular employee?

      Maybe don’t. You’re giving your company and your team sufficient lead time, and it’s on management to deal with scheduling issues. You shouldn’t have to give up your vacations. What if you wanted to take a vacation elsewhere? You shouldn’t have to give up that possibility because your company didn’t staff correctly.

      Sure, you can suggest to your manager that there be a floater. And be willing to cover when it’s not your vacation. But you can safely ignore snarky texts, and it’s not your problem to manage coverage.

      1. Bagpuss*

        I would agree that this isn’t really on you to solve.
        You’re doing the right thing by not responding while you are on vacation,

        for comments like the “I was asked to close on the Saturday you are on vacation. I did not want to do that, but I guess I have to since you are on vacation that week” maybe a response like
        “Yeah, I know when you or [other co-worker] are on vacation I get scheduled for shifts I’d rather not do, too. I guess that’s just part of the job – But neither of us is in charge of the scheduling. Maybe you should suggest to [name of manager] that we could do with an extra staff member to help with holiday cover”

        in other words, you aren’t sounding unsympathetic, but you are flagging up that their holidays impact you just as much (or more) and that it’s not your responsibility.

        Or just carry on ignoring it – if they have an issue they can speak to whoever is responsible for scheduling

        1. Wendy*

          Bagpuss…

          Do you live in Australia?

          Because my husband has an on-line buddy who lives in Australia who refers to vacation time as holidy.

          I like your idea of what to tell my co-worker if needed.

          2. Bagpuss*

            No, I’m in the UK, but I think English and Australian English probably have more in common with each other than with American English!

    5. RagingADHD*

      I don’t think you need to approach it at all. Leave it alone. The other employee is allowed to have feelings about being asked to work. Those feelings are not your problem and you don’t need to address them.

      If they say something to you again, just reply “I’m not the one who asked you to come in. I was on vacation. If you want to discuss your schedule, that’s between you and the manager.”

      It’s the manager’s job to determine coverage and figure out that they probably need to hire more people. Sit tight and let them do their job.

      1. Wendy*

        What I mean by what is the best way to approach the issue is the following…

        What should I do or say if the fuel center employee, who complained about closing on Saturday, continues to complain to me?

        I am also looking for advice regarding what to tell management if they ask me why I did not answer my phone.

        I do not intend to approach that employee myself and tell him something.

        Nor do I intend to approach management.

        1. Office Gumby*

          What to say to that employee who continues to complain to you about covering while you’re gone? “Why are you complaining to me? I don’t set the schedule.”

          Sounds like he’s taking his frustration out on you as a manipulation tactic. Sounds like he’s trying to guilt you into covering for those times he doesn’t feel like working. Clearly he can’t get the scheduling management to change, so he’s trying to make you change.”

          What to say to management when they ask why you didn’t answer the phone: “I was on vacation. Why would I come in to work when I’m on vacation?” You say it in a way that sounds like it’s obvious that normal people don’t ask vacationers to come to work.

          Out of curiosity, has management in the past questioned why you didn’t answer your phone on vacation? Or are you trying to pre-empt a possible question from a potentially toxic workplace? Unless the situation happens, don’t spend time or energy worrying about it. Management should already understand that people on vacation are naturally unavailable.

    6. Lunch Ghost*

      Can you discuss with the fuel lead that people keep calling you to come in while you’re on vacation? It sounds like he was supportive around you getting to take your vacation last time. I’m torn on whether to say you should mention the coworker also- it was inappropriate of him to complain to you but he does have a right to be annoyed (again, not with you but with management) about being called in to work during his “unavailable” hours. Unless there’s actually a policy that vacation supercedes regular availability.

  25. korangeen*

    I could use some advice on how to handle a minor workplace annoyance. I’m usually of the mind of “you do your job and I’ll do mine,” but for the past few months I’ve been working on a small team that’s much more collaborative. There’s one co-worker who on occasion changes something I did without asking, sometimes introducing factual errors while doing so that I don’t discover until later. Personally I would only change someone else’s work without asking if it were an unusual emergency situation, and otherwise I would make a suggested edit or comment, or perhaps ask someone why they did something a certain way. I find her changing my work without asking frustrating. In particular for an instance where it’s not an error, just different personal preferences in doing things, what’s a good way to react without coming across as passive aggressive? Or is there no good way really, and since it’s a relatively minor thing, the best thing for me to do is take a deep breath and let it go?

    1. Jay*

      How about being direct? “I noticed you changed ABC to XYZ. I’m curious why” in a very calm and inquisitive tone of voice – not challenging, You genuinely want to know. Listen to answer. “I appreciate how thoughtful you are about the work. I’m not comfortable having my reports changed without my input, though. In the future, I’d appreciate it if you’d check with me first.” If that doesn’t solve the problem and she continues to introduce errors, you may need to take it up the food chain. I don’t tolerate having my writing edited without the opportunity to review, so I would go to the mat about this. It might not be worth it for you *except* for the errors. That’s not OK.

    2. Lana Kane*

      It’s not a minor thing to edit someone else’s work without their permission, period – and even worse when the edits are wrong. It’s also not passive aggressive to talk about it with that person. “Hey, I’ve noticed you have made edits on my work – how come?” Unless the reason is, “Boss told me to”, then it’s ok to ask them not to do that anymore and to come to you if they feel something should be edited so you can make that call.

    3. DarthVelma*

      I think you have to address it head on if their changes introduce factual errors. And if they don’t stop, turn on track changes on your documents and use Lock Tracking so they can’t turn track changes off without a password that you just don’t give them.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      Hey, Jane, the last time you changed my TPS report, you actually added a mistake. In the future, please don’t change anything without talking to me first.

    5. Bagpuss*

      I think address it directly – mention that they’ve made changes which have introduced errors, and ask that in future, the don’t make changes to your work without speaking to you first. You can say that you’re always happy to hear suggestions, and that you’re also happy to explain why you have done things in a certain way, but that you’d prefer that they not actually change things without speaking to you first.

    6. korangeen*

      Thanks for the suggestions. In this small group, everything is so collaborative that I don’t feel like I can say/imply “that’s mine, back off.” And yes, when she introduces an error, that seems more obvious to address, but when it’s just different personal preferences, I’m not really sure how to approach that. And most of this is remote through slack and google docs, so tone of voice is harder to control (though to be honest, I’m probably not great at coming off cheerful and pleasant in person either, ha.)

      1. retired4*

        Doesn’t collaborative mean you respect each other? If this matters to you, that should be a thing others respect. I don’t think collaborative means you can’t be appropriately assertive about your needs (or even your preferences).

    7. Free Meerkats*

      Assuming they are computer documents, I’d just turn on “Track Changes” and “Lock Tracking” password protect my final document. They can then change it all they want, but they can’t hide that they were the one who did the change.

  26. matcha123*

    First part is that I’ve found a new job. My contract was not renewed at my old job. My former boss was surprised. My supervisor was surprised. I was surprised and panicked. I did look through some of the sample cover letters on this site and used some to help create cover letters that spoke to my abilities. Speaking with other coworkers helped me to focus on positives about myself that I’d never noticed before.
    Very happy to have secured employment.

    A portion of this new job may involve data analytics. Which is great because it is something I’m interested in becoming more proficient in. After I learned that I wouldn’t have a job from April, I spent my days studying Google Analytics and now have their individual qualification certificate. It’s only a small step.

    My big worry is about math. I have studied Python and now I’m trying to learn more about JavaScript and R. But vids I’ve seen on YouTube say that a good math foundation is necessary for programming and data analysis.
    What do you all recommend? I have math anxiety. I spent elementary through college crying through math classes. When I see formulas, I think “why does this matter? How did they come up with this? Isn’t there an easier way?” and “Why am I so dumb?”

    Are there any sites you’d recommend to check out? or should I focus on JavaScript and things I feel more comfortable with first?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      I really like Khan Academy. They have some nice higher level math courses, as well as programming and computer science ones.

      1. DisneyChannelThis*

        Seconding this! They draw on the whiteboard while narrating and it makes things click somehow.

        Think of math formulas like cheat codes in a video game. Someone else did all the nitty gritty, you just have to use it, doesn’t matter how it works. You know the formula for statistical significance just use it, don’t worry about the denominator being able to be reduced more. Reframe it from “I need to learn math” to “I need to lookup the best cheats and shortcuts for this video game then implement them”. Most people go from learning math formulas to learning coding formulas – you’re just doing the reverse. It will still work.

        1. matcha123*

          Thank you both! I just opened up two Khan Academy math classes in my tabs.

          I’ve found the writing part of programming, especially for Python, to be fine. But when I’ve done problems that needed some kind of math formula, however simple, everything breaks down. The same when a presenter for a Python or CS online course says something like, “Just a simple algebraic function that you used in school.”
          I really like the idea of programming, but whenever math comes up, I nope out. Now, I have to push myself to understand the concepts better ><

        2. Marvin the paranoid iphone*

          +1 Khan Academy

          A dear friend used this in almost exactly your circumstances. They had not taken math very far in high school and wanted to break into data science. Enrolled in a BSc Data Science but was hurting for lack of maths and stats.

          They had said later high school maths never made sense to them because something hadn’t clicked earlier than that. Math is very foundational, each layer does need to be fully grasped for the best chance of fully grasping what comes later.

          I recommended they do the entire Khan Academy high school curriculum, even for materials they were sure they already knew, because that was the best way to have solid foundations. Also if it became slightly boring I couldn’t think of any better way to defuse math anxiety – I don’t think we can be anxious about anything we find boring! (I use the same principle for rehearsing major presentations: do it until it’s boring to do it again, and then do it a couple more times anyway.)

          They did exactly as I suggested, they took Khan Academy through all high school and a lot of college math, graduated top of their class, got their dream data science job which sponsored an international move. I was so inspired in turn that I also started Khan Academy in a complete reset – and I have a degree in Pure Maths. :)

      2. Observer*

        That’s what I was coming to say.

        Also, now that you are actually doing data analytics, you’ll have more answers to the “why does this matter?” question.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I don’t have a lot of experience with programming, but I have written and edited a few small programs (in Excel VBA and Matlab). A friend broke programming down into two parts for me: (1) logic and (2) syntax.

      (1) Logic: what do you want the program to do? It helps me to start with drawing flow diagrams on a piece of paper. If you think of it as logic, and not as math, that may help your anxiety. “I have this number, where does it need to go? To the +3 box or to the ‘divide by 4’ box?”

      (2) Syntax: This step is translating your diagram from paper into the language of whatever program you are using. For me, this is a lot of googling: “how to use if statement excel,” “how to use if statement matlab,” etc. So if there is something you know you can do in Python that you think you should be able to do in JavaScript or R, you can search “[Python term] JavaScript equivalent.”

      1. matcha123*

        Drawing things out will probably help me a lot.
        And wow, I did not know Excel could be used to write programs!

        1. Hlao-roo*

          I didn’t either until my boss asked me to do it! He had a giant spreadsheet with a LOT of formulas and he wanted me to put the data processing in VBA to speed it up. All of the logic was already there, so most of my time was spent googling “[Excel formula] in VBA” and then typing that into the VBA window.

      2. -ing!*

        I’d second this! Especially because one thing I’d note about maths at work is that you don’t need to memorise anything, and googling the right formula is appropriate and professional – there’s no value in reinventing other people’s wheels.
        A foundation in maths is useful for knowing what’s possible, but at least in the analytics I’ve done, being able to approach problems logically is central.

    3. Alex*

      Honestly I didn’t really understand math until I studied programming, so the first thing I’d do is relax. You have a programming foundation! You’ll be fine.

      That said, I found the courses available on edx to be good (and free!). I did college algebra, precalculus, and calculus there.

    4. anonymath*

      Professional mathematician here!

      1) “why does this matter? How did they come up with this? Isn’t there an easier way?” GREAT QUESTIONS! in fact the questions that true mathematicians ask! For real! The first question I always ask is “why do I care?” Not in a snarky way, but for real. Why? What is important to me here? In a business context, that’s really important. Do we just need a directionally correct answer? Do we need this many decimals? In a data analytics context, do we care about outliers? do we care about averages? are we answering the wrong question with this data?

      2) Formulas: honestly when I read math papers (which you will almost certainly not need to do for your work) I skip the formulas at first. Instead I try to ask why we care first (why *I* care). Then when I know what I care about, I go to the formulas and see what they can tell me.

      3) Baby cases/toy problems. Almost always, try a simple example first. “Ok, my boss said she wants an understanding of the average number of days to process this type of order. I can just slap on an average, but I could also look at the median. Let’s look at a histogram of number of days…”

      1. anonymath*

        Had to leave to do stuff, so back. I think for data analytics the things you’d want to know would be your means/medians/variance/standard deviation/percent error/etc. If you are a person for whom context (that “why”) makes a big difference, try to find some stats or math books/tutorials/videos that work starting from the applications and ending with the formulas.

        The other way to get over some of your math feels and build your coding skills at the same time is to take classes like the Coursera courses “An Introduction to Interactive Programming in Python”, as you build some video games and have to do a little math along the way.

        1. matcha123*

          It’s reassuring to hear from someone in your position! It sounds like I need to re-frame my tendency to think of questions as “ignorance” and think of them as “gaining insight”.
          I’ve written down everyone’s suggestions and will make myself a schedule for this month.

    5. Software Dev (she/her)*

      For data analytics you don’t really need to be good at math imo, you need to be good at logical reasoning. The code should do the math! Computers are a million times better at math than you. Also to be honest and maybe a bit controversial you don’t need to understand the math behind the formulas, many people have already verified they work, you just need to know when to use each formula and what the gotchas are. No one should be doing logistic regressions by hand or whatever.

      I have a backgrounds in stats and now do full time web dev and I am terrible at math, a combination of just finding it confusing conceptual space and dycalculia.

    6. Cedrus Libani*

      I’m a professional data wrangler, and honestly I think math is overrated. The one thing you really do need to know is basic statistics. Consider finding a “stats for pre-meds” or similar course / book. I earned my ramen back in grad school as a TA for the pharmacy school’s stats class; there’s a lot of educational material geared towards that population. They’re not math people, they’re not in a math class of their own free will, but if you’re going to do evidence-based medicine then you need at least a hand-wavy understanding of how that evidence works.

      1. matcha123*

        I have seen statistics come up in a number of videos as being necessary for data analytics. I never took a course in it, so I am nervous. Your recommendation is a very helpful starting place.

    7. Cat*

      Honestly from my perspective as a developer who uses Python+occasional R, you don’t need to know much math at all. I think statistics would be a better investment of time and even then I would focus on when you would use each test/type of analysis+ how to run them in a script rather than the math behind how it works. I don’t have any specific recommendations there but I’m sure there are some “stats for data analysts” courses out there. You may also want to check and see if your local community college has any stats offerings. All the college level stats classes I took just used R as part of the course so that could be a good way to brush up on both at the same time and a lot of times ccs have online classes you can take by themselves.

      On the topic of languages themselves I would recommend learning about the numpy+ pandas packages for python as you will probably be using them a lot if you are doing data analysis. Python is great because it’s super flexible and can do a lot of different things. However if you specifically want to take a dataframe/csv, do some statistical analysis, and then make a visualization, I’d probably recommend just using R because it is pretty well tuned for that. For R I’d recommend learning about ggplot and also Rmarkdown if you want to produce some impressive reports. I also highly recommend just googling “python/r *whatever issue you are having/test you want to run/etc” at any point.

      1. matcha123*

        Someone I know has been in love with R since forever and they keep trying to get me to learn it! I does sound like it can do a lot. Thank you for your recommendations!
        It looks like my next step is to find some courses on statistics and start getting up to speed there!

        1. linger*

          Back in the late 80s/early 90s, there was a program called SYSTAT, which was originally developed as a stats package for teaching purposes (a free student version called MYSTAT had equivalent functionality but limits on size of dataset). SYSTAT 5.2.2 (1990) ran on MacOS6 – OS9. It shipped with a set of toy datasets, the whole package fitting onto two floppy disks, and Leland Wilkinson’s manual for the program was, in effect, a teach-yourself statistics coursebook with worked examples that you could then try out and play around with. Much of what I learned about statistics and data presentation came from that manual, and even today I’d recommend it for someone approaching stats from a programming background.
          Alas, SYSTAT was purchased by SPSS (which stopped developing it for Mac), and redesigned first as a science package, and then for business analytics, and sold on to Crane. Recent versions bear no relationship to the original.

  27. KayDeeAye*

    I am hoping to retire in a couple of years, but for both financial and keeping-myself-active reasons, I would like to get a part-time job, one that is either really close so the commute is minimal or almost entirely remote.

    I’ve thought about tutoring in English/writing (I am a writer) and I’ve thought about freelancing (ditto), but I’ve also thought about finding some sort of part-time position with the state historical society or with a local historic park.

    I realize this is a really open-ended question, but…any ideas or suggestions? Regarding tutoring, are there any red flags I need to look for when considering tutoring companies? I don’t know much about them, but I suspect some are much, much better than others.

    For either of the historical ones, should I try volunteering first and seeing if I could work my way into something? Or once I’m a volunteer, will I be considered volunteer-only material for ever?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      The city I live in (~250,000 people, decent immigrant population) has a volunteer writer tutor program at the library. I think it is geared toward helping English language-learners improve their English writing. If a similar program exists in your area, it may be a good way to try out tutoring on a very part-time basis and give you an idea of what to look for when you apply to tutoring companies.

    2. Wordnerd*

      I don’t know a lot about tutoring companies, but if you have any community colleges in your area, they may be able to hire you in their writing center, depending on your qualifications. (4-year universities may be able to hire you, but many have peer tutors.)
      As Hlao-roo said (omg best user name ever, hey Pipkin), volunteering with a tutoring program would definitely help you get a feel for if you enjoy the work.

    3. Camelid coordinator*

      I’d use the next couple of years to try out different organizations and activities and see what you like. I suggest having informational interviews and conversations fairly early on with people in those organizations. You could highlight your skills and what you’d like to do next so that people consider what you’d add as an employee. You’d learn what might be possible down the road.

      1. Camelid coordinator*

        Also, in case it helps, this is what I did. I was aware of a new organization being set up to do things I really believed in. It seemed to me that if it was successful it was going to need staff with my skills and that our timelines might align, which they (mostly ) did.

    4. CubeFarmInmate#644*

      I tutored for a year as a volunteer, then professionally for another three. Most use a model where your hours are limited to less than 20/week and some have clauses where you can’t work for a competitor concurrently. Some assign you to specific students on a regular schedule, others use a floating pool based on sho is available. Almost all operate as franchises, so the scheduling, pay, and duties depend on the franchise owner. Freelancing is a better beg for more regular pay, volunteering on your own for flexible hours. Most tutoring focuses on evening (afterschool) and weekend hours. Places like C2 Education focus more on standardized test prep (older crowd) and structured curricula (doing things Their Way). Huntington Learning and its academics focused competitors like Kumon focus on skill building (teach how to infer things from a reading, vocab building, etc.). Some, like Varsity tutoring, charge a large hourly rate which you receive a portion of, and you travel to the student’s home to work, with parents present. Others do block rates ($X for 500 hrs for Y students in a household), like C2 and Huntington, with a fixed rate for employees (you get $W/hr regardless). Online tutoring tends more to the % model, so read the fine print. You also have to worry about business drying up from bad reviews (ex. student wanted answers without doing the work, you refused, bad review leads to less interest from those not in the know) and not having colleagues to help (steel sharpens steel).

      Good luck and enjoy it

    5. Hen in a Windstorm*

      My MIL retired from an accounting job and tried several different paid and volunteer PT jobs until she found one she really liked. Try them all! It’s totally low stakes. You’ll have all the power to walk away if they don’t work for you for whatever reason.

      She did a Christmas season ice park thing 2 years where most of the others were high school kids, she volunteered at a museum transferring handwritten index cards to a database, she was a docent at an open air museum/historic house. She ended up liking the docent thing the most and dropped the others. She works Tues, Thurs and every 3rd weekend and she’s been there like 3 years now.

  28. Teacher to Nonprofits*

    I am a very jinx-averse person, but I’m going to ask anyway. I’ve been job-hunting for months, with a full-time exhausting job. After a lot of resume reworking, I’m finally seeing positive results. Currently I’m interviewing with about 6 different places, but in the final top 3 candidates for two jobs.

    Here comes the jinx issue: Company A is prepared to make a decision next week. My final interview went really well and I think I might get it. However, I am much more interested in Company B. My final interview with them is in 10 days (there’s a reasonable and paid project to complete before). I want this job SO BAD. I love everything about their vibe, work, and the job itself. It pays much better and is in the city I want to move to. It would be more of a transition so I’m not as confident I’ll get hired, but I have made it to top 3 so that’s something.

    What should I do if offered Job A? What are the ethical implications of accepting, knowing I’d still do my final interview with Company B? Can I accept and then say “never mind” after a week? How honest should I be with both?

    1. Hiring Mgr*

      I had this exact situation around ten years ago.. I accepted job with a start date a few weeks out, then of course in the interim B came in with the offer.

      I felt awful but rescinded my acceptance with A since B was the one I really wanted. In the end that was the right decision for me, but it was certainly a burned bridge with A (which of course I knew would be the case and was ok with)

    2. 404_FoxNotFound*

      I’ve seen folks try to stretch the period during which they consider job offer A in order to be able to receive (or not) a job offer B.
      That said, based on what you said I’d probably recommend you reach back out to Company B to let them know once you’ve received an actual offer from Company A to get a sense for what their timeline is, letting them know you’ve loved interviewing etc. with them and are curious if they’re able to shift it. Who knows, the timing could end up very convenient for you!

      I believe AAM has covered situations like this one in the past if you’re curious for actual scripts.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This is exactly what I did. While waiting to hear from Exjob, another company offered me a job, but it was temporary, covering for someone else’s mat leave. I asked them if I could let them know by the end of the week and then emailed ExBoss.

        I said something like, “Hey, just checking in. I’ve received an offer and I was wondering about your timeline for a decision. Based on our conversations, I would really like to work with your team, so if you could let me know, I’d appreciate it.” I did NOT tell her the offered job was temporary.

        She emailed me back well before the deadline with an offer. Thanks to my editing test, I was the top contender, and the possibility of losing me lit a fire under their butts. If you get an offer from Company A, it’s worth a try. Good luck!

    3. T. Boone Pickens*

      I agree with 404, if/when you receive the offer from Company A, I’d reach out to Company B to get their input and then I’d go back to Company A and ask for 5-7 days to think it over. Most reasonable companies will give you a pretty wide timeframe to decide on whether you’d like to accept the job (and if they push you for a decision it’s a red flag) so in all honesty, I think you’ll be ok with Company A and waiting it out.

      If push comes to shove you can accept the role with Company A and ditch them for Company B but it’s a pretty unethical thing to do in my opinion, especially since you know you’re accepting the offer in potentially bad faith.

      To me, your scenario is different from one where say, you interviewed at Company B first, didn’t hear anything for a month or so, interviewed with A, accepted an offer and then all of a sudden B came back out of nowhere with an offer that you couldn’t turn down. In your situation, your interviewing with both places simultaneously and using Company A as a stalking horse.

      Here’s hoping Company B comes a calling and everything works out!

  29. Hopeful Ex-Librarian*

    Hi! On this episode of Anxiety is Fun: Job Hunting Edition….

    At some point, I applied for a quality assurance position and last night (around 5pm) got a call wanting to talk to me about my experience and about the job, after getting my resume from Indeed.

    Which is great! Problem is, the person calling didn’t give a company name, and the job (“quality assurance” was all I got) could be several options. I have a Trello board full of job descriptions and my application materials, but without knowing the specifics of the job, I feel like I wasn’t able to prepare as well (like if they ask me for specifics of why I applied). I took basic notes that could fit for a few of the different jobs I applied for, and I’m hoping that’s fine. I know a quick “find out about the job” won’t be anything super in-depth, but I like to be as prepared as I can. I tried googling the number and name and no luck.

    Anyway, I called this person back first thing this morning (once I had food and a little coffee, trying to put my best foot forward), but got her voicemail. I left a message, but I’m wondering if this constant phone tag will be a detriment to me as a candidate. I’m commuting to work later today, and I take public transit so talking on the phone during my commute is not an option. I don’t know what this person has going on today, if they’re even in the office…. But I’m worried this phone tag won’t make me look good.

    Also if it’s not said by the person, is there a nice way to ask what company the job is for?

    On my applications (or even resume and cover letters), I have that email is preferred, and now I have that on my voicemail as well. Emails are generally easier for me to respond to (I work two jobs but can sometimes check email throughout the day), and usually people just email. Plus, partially due to my anxiety, I like a paper trail. I’m also wondering, if I had answered last night, would I have been expected to talk right there and then?

    And a shoutout to a letter earlier this week about whitelisting calls – I have unknown numbers go straight to voicemail, but I added this person as a contact.

    Thanks for reading this. I’m happy I even got called for an interview, that makes me hopeful cause job hunting suuuuuucks.

    1. ferrina*

      I love that you have a Trello board for job hunting! That’s brilliant!

      It sounds like they’ve called you and you’ve called back, which isn’t quite phone tag yet. If you can pick up, I would (even if you’re on the bus). You can say “I’m actually on the bus right now- when would be a good time for me to call you back?” That way you can quickly schedule a good time that both of you can talk.

      For the mystery job- yes, I’ve been in that boat! Usually I can fake it until they mention what the company is (and sometime you can even prompt it by saying “I’d love to know a little more about the company”), but it’s also okay to say “I’m so sorry, but where are you calling from again?” A reasonable recruiter won’t be annoyed by this (and an unreasonable one would have found some reason to get annoyed anyways).

      Good luck!

      1. Hopeful Ex-Librarian*

        Thank you! Using Trello is way easier than a spreadsheet for me, because I can copy/paste the job description and any application materials to a card. I have lists for possible job options, jobs I’ve applied to, jobs I’ve heard back from. Each card has a different colored label, like what type of job it is, if I’ve gotten an interview, etc. I love it.

        Anyway, if I get a call back, I’ll answer if I can. Bur I’ve been on the other end of calls where the person I’m talking to is clearly driving or not in a good location, and it’s hard to hear them. My hearing also isn’t the greatest even normally, and adding in Transit and Street Sounds makes it worse. I’m really hoping if I can’t answer, they’ll email me but IDK.

        And good to know about asking which company they’re from! I don’t want to sound like I’m an idiot or not prepared, but you’re right that a reasonable person won’t hold that against me.

        Thanks for this response! :D

        1. Ashkela*

          I use Trello for work and fell in love with it lol.

          You can always go with the old adage of ‘Help me spell it correctly?’ to help get the name maybe?

          1. Hopeful Ex-Librarian*

            Right? It’s so nice to use! I mostly just use it for job hunting right now, but in a previous job I used it to keep track of projects and stuff I needed to do and it was fantastic.

            Ooo I like this question, thank you!

    2. RagingADHD*

      The phone tag isn’t on you, there’s no reason it would make you look bad.

      For finding out the company, just ask. “Sorry, I didn’t catch the company name, and I have a couple of applications out. Who are you with?”

    3. Free Meerkats*

      You could try a reverse search on the phone number. May or may not return useful information, but it can be free.

  30. Kesnit*

    This happened yesterday and I wanted some outside take on this…

    My wife and I are both pagan. My employer knows this and it has never been an issue. We both have FB accounts. I do not post anything that is not behind a friend filter, and anything pagan-related uses an even more limited filter than standard posts. My wife mostly filters her posts, but a review of her publicly-accessible posts does show a few about tarot cards and crystals and a few shared pictures with pentacles.

    Unbeknownst to me, a client looked me up on FB, then went to my wife’s FB. (My FB info says I am married to her. Clicking on that links to her FB.) My client apparently freaked out and sent a letter to my boss, asking for me to be replaced because I “lied to her” by telling her I “don’t believe in black magic.” (She brought up issue of magic as part of our professional discussions. I do not recall ever telling her anything about my own beliefs or practices.)

    My boss is fully supportive of me and agrees neither my wife nor I did anything wrong. (He went so far as to joke about dressing a female colleague in a black dress and black hat, painting her face green, and sending her to meet with the client by saying “I’m here to work with you, my pretty.”)

    I live and work in a conservative area, so obviously do not want my personal religious beliefs and practices to become common knowledge. Does anyone know of anything I can do that I haven’t already done to keep something like this from happening again? (Although I don’t like the idea, I know I will probably have to remove reference to my marriage from the About Me part of FB.)

    1. ferrina*

      Is it normal in your industry for clients to look at your FB page? That would be really odd in my industry, and reflect a lot more on the client than on me.

      I’d encourage you not to change a thing. What you are doing is really reasonable, you aren’t foisting religion on anyone, and you shouldn’t have to pretend that your religion doesn’t exist just because someone’s uncomfortable (see also: yesterday’s update on the LW who’s coworker listed all the things wrong with her religion). Your boss has your back and this is clearly an issue with the client, not with you.
      That said, if you want to lock down your FB more or share less information, you can do that. But you definitely don’t have to.

      1. A Difficult Woman*

        I agree. This all feels weird. Who does that? Don’t change anything. You’re not the weird one here.

      2. Kesnit*

        In 5 years, this is the first time I’ve had a client tell me they looked me up on FB. Of course, the only reason I know this one did is because she complained about it. For all I know, all of my clients have FB-ed me and not said anything.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          It’s much more likely the complainer is weird and intrusive and either the only one who bothered looking for you on FB or the only one who bothered to do so looking for something to complain about.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      This sounds like an edge case to me. It seems unlikely that another client is going to:

      1. Look at your FB account
      2. Follow it to your wife’s account
      3. See something they don’t like
      4. Bring it up to your boss

      I think if clients are doing any of this, they stop after #1. I wouldn’t change anything.

    3. Miel*

      Your client sounds out of line, but I’m a big fan of keeping my public fb profile extremely locked down anyway.

    4. RagingADHD*

      This person is a stalkery weirdo who makes things up to complain about. The only way to prevent stalker weirdos from being stalkery is to go on a total digital lockdown. There is no reason for you to do that, particularly since your boss has your back.

      There is no way to avoid people making things up to complain about. The less they find the more they will make up, anyway.

    5. Observer*

      I’ve always been a fan of not posting anything on FB that I don’t want my mother, my boss, the NYT and the local new paper to know.

      The bottom line is that you need to decide if keeping this really underground is important to you or not. It’s totally up to you – you are allowed to decide that you don’t want to give anything for even the most unreasonable client to complain about or that you don’t really care if unreasonable people get on their high horse if they go looking and find something they don’t like.

      If it’s the latter, you’re fine. If it’s the former, you need to lock things down more, including being careful about who you allow to post on your wall and who tags you.

    6. Irish Teacher*

      How easy is it to find your facebook account? Do you have a photo of yourself up? What is accessible publicly? I know you said your posts aren’t, but I mean, what of your userinfo and so on is. What else is in the About Me that could make you recognisable? Location? Job? As a teacher, I do not use a photo of me or any people on my facebook account.I think I currently have a waterfall and my name is common enough that it would be VERY difficult, if not impossible, to know which of the numerous facebook accounts with my name was mine. Other colleagues use the Irish-language version of their name, for example a David might go under Daithí or a John use Seán.

    7. Llellayena*

      Don’t change a thing. If someone else is offended because they snooped, found something they don’t understand and misinterpreted it, that’s not on you. This is your religion and therefore a protected class, so she doesn’t have a leg to stand on here. It’s sad that you even have to hide it at much as you do. My take is that if they’re going to be offended by you living your life then you don’t want them as a client anyway (though obviously that’s not entirely your call).

      1. Despachito*

        This.

        Moreover (and not that it matters even if it were you), the snooper found YOUR WIFE’s page and infers things about YOU from that? What if you were of a different religion than your wife? Also, does being pagan mean that you automatically believe in black magic?

        Even if all the above was true it would still not be that person’s business, but this is just to point out the several layers of stupid this person was demonstrating. That’s on them, not on you. Don’t change anything.

    8. allathian*

      Ouch, I’m sorry that happened to you. Your boss has your back, so you’re lucky in that regard. He clearly understands that the client’s an outlier.

    9. Foley*

      I had something similar happen to me last year. I had a similar impulse as you and the first thing I did was take my accounts private. But it was pointed out by almost everyone that it said way more about the person ‘investigating’ me than it did about me. So after a hiatus (because I really did feel violated), I made them public again and kept on living.

  31. Middle Manager*

    Folks who work in a different time zone than you live in, any advice or tip+tricks to adjusting the flow of your day?

    I live on the east coast in ET, but recently started working for a west coast org in PT hours — which means their 8-5 is my 11-8. I’m enjoying the slower mornings, but having a harder time planning my meals and post-work activities. Yesterday, I was in meetings from 12-4:30 straight and had a very belated lunch, which then also meant a late dinner (9).

    I try to eat at my desk during ET lunch hours and take my full break later in my work day to break it up, but it’s been a tougher adjustment than I thought.

    I’d love to hear any pro tips or obvious tricks I might be overlooking from other people who’ve lived this life! :)

    1. ferrina*

      Eat lunch at your regular time, just turn the camera off in meetings. You can also block off half an hour for lunch on your calendar if that makes things easier.

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I work on the East Coast, my manger and teammates are on the West, and other colleagues are in APAC or Europe, so my schedule can be challenging. I have started doing meal prep and other errands/light housework in the morning before I get started. I might do some at lunch too, or get out and take walk before eating lunch at my desk (I don’t mind). I don’t have a lot of last minute meetings, so I can often block off time on my calendar for dinner when I notice that a day is getting particularly busy and I otherwise wouldn’t eat until late. It helps to have understanding colleagues and leadership, which I do, and we all try to accommodate each other’s schedules when we can. I don’t regularly schedule meetings for 8am there time, and they don’t schedule them at for 6pm for me. Sure it happens some times, but rarely more than once or twice a week, which I basically just live with.

    3. Princess Xena*

      Is there any way you could flex your schedule by an hour? Start at pdt 8, end at pdt 4?

    4. Marvin the paranoid iphone*

      I had a year where I kept UK hours from Australia, which depending on the season is 12 or 14 hours’ difference.

      There’s not really a lot to be done with that level of difference. I accepted that my work day was 6pm – 4am. It was during COVID lockdowns so I wasn’t leaving the home anyway, and there are no children. I slept maybe 6am – 2pm so I overlapped about 2pm – 10pm with my partner.

      For same-continent time zone differences I echo all the advice you’ve already been given: flex your work schedule slightly if permitted; flex your home schedule only slightly (eat when it’s local eating time); block out calendar time for meals.

      The hardest part for me of stopping work at 4am was that I can’t go straight from work mode to sleep. I need time to decompress, especially as with any normal schedule we usually have at least a few and usually several hours between end of work and start of sleep. Some time planning to ensure I had no queued tasks for that period helped, likewise moving away from my screen and work table for a mental separation.

  32. Amber Rose*

    Let’s talk dress codes please!

    We work in a low-risk manufacturing warehouse. The most severe injury we’ve had in the 7 years I’ve been here was poor Wakeen who dropped something heavy on his finger. That said, we have the usual range of dangerous things like grinders, cutters, forklifts and newly a plasma cutter than I keep a tight leash on.

    The dress code which has existed since the dawn of time says legs must be covered. I’m getting push back on that now because of the few women who wear dresses/skirts. The guys get hot in summer and wanna wear shorts. I personally have no issue with it from a professionalism standpoint. We’re 100% casual wear anyway. What I can’t figure out, and Google is not helping, is if I should have an issue with it from a safety standpoint. Is it really any more risky to have your legs bare than your arms?

    I want to have my response well thought out before I approach management, especially because now that I’m looking at it, our dress code sucks and would benefit from a complete rewrite.

    1. Person from the Resume*

      I think you hit the nail on the head with your question: Is it really any more risky to have your legs bare than your arms?

      Unless there’s some tool / situation in particular that might target the legs, I don’t think this is a safety issue.

      OTOH, ye gads, I think shorts introduce a policing issue of what’s too short / unprofessional. Do you want to open that can of worms?

      1. Amber Rose*

        My plan is to say knee length is a guidelines and then say managers get final decision. Then it’s not my can of worms. xD

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      There is a concern with dropped items that there isn’t as much a concern for arms, especially ricocheting metal off the floor. Also it’s a hell of a lot easier to rinse your arms off than it is your legs at work. Can you introduce more fans or other cooling options in summer rather than reduce the pants?

      1. Amber Rose*

        There’s not much to rinse off, fortunately. We use exactly two chemicals, and one of them is vinegar. The other is barely more harmful than that. The ricochet is a slight concern, but I can’t imagine what we have that would hit the ground at speeds high enough to be a risk.

        I feel like fans would be a higher risk, since they’d be blowing debris around.

    3. Hiring Mgr*

      Would the skirts/dresses be more likely to get caught in some piece of equipment? Other than that I don’t know what the safety issues might be

      1. Mannequin*

        It sounds like women are already wearing skirts/dresses, and men want the option to have bare legs too.

    4. Miel*

      At my manufacturing workplace (which is decidedly higher risk than yours!) – people can wear shorts for most jobs. Shorts need to be close to knee length.

      Steel toe shoes and other PPE is required, as needed by position.

      If you’re rewriting your dress code, I’d also encourage you to make it a gender-neutral dress code! (Don’t spell out what men can wear and what women can wear; instead, spell out acceptable and unacceptable clothing.)

      1. Amber Rose*

        Thank you for your response!

        The gender neutrality thing is part of why I want to re-write it. I’ve already completely revamped our parental leave policy to be gender neutral earlier this year. Sneaky-like, I’m slowly making our company documentation extremely inclusive. :)

    5. Becky*

      I don’t know if maybe OSHA has any particular safety guidelines for your industry, but maybe check there?

      If there *is* an issue with bare legs from a safety standpoint, then it does need to be enforced equally–so those women wearing skirts and dresses will need to be informed of the proper dress code.

    6. Anonymous healthcare person*

      I would assume that there is a state/provincial set of rules for safety in work environments like yours. As far as I know, those rules HAVE to be followed or there are legal/liability issues. It should be easy to find online and that will tell you if the clothing options you are looking at are allowed or not. I would assume it is not up to you or to your company as to whether shorts/dresses etc are allowed. HR should know this stuff, and if the company has a legal department, so should they. I would be surprised if dresses are allowed, for example, because of the possibility of tangling in equipment, but this will completely depend on the rules in your jurisdiction.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Believe it or not, no. The Code merely states that if clothing is liable to get caught in machinery, I must require my workers to wear close-fitting clothing, and if there’s a flash fire hazard, I must require them to wear flame-resistant fabrics. Aside from that and specific PPE requirements, it’s left to individual company decision as to what “safe clothing” is.

        We don’t have HR or legal, we are a small company. But the OH&S Code, Act and Regulation sits on my desk and I am well-versed in it.

    7. Purple Cat*

      The dress code should definitely be gender-neutral. If legs must be covered, they must be covered for everybody.
      We’re not allowed bare legs in the plant, and arms are covered by lab coats. Chemical spills are the concern here. So think about what is used for cleanup in your plant. Flowiness is also an issue. What can get caught in machinery? And then think about roles. Is it really gender that’s driving the difference in apparel, or that people are doing different things and it happens to be split across gender lines.

      1. Amber Rose*

        People are just doing different things because our dress code is so poorly written, it’s way too ambiguous about what’s allowed. The dress code itself isn’t split across genders exactly, although the way it’s written allows for that to happen, which is why I want a re-write.

    8. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Is there any guidance from OSHA (assuming US) on proper or required clothing? I would think dresses/skirts/shorts are a no go for anyone WORKING on a shop floor with machinery, but OK for office staff who are only on the floor for a short time. Is there a reason the dress code can’t be specific on when/where certain clothing is required or banned? i.e. If they are operating the grinder or plasma cutter, they have to wear a coverall or leather apron…if they are driving the forklift, shorts are allowed.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Canada, and the answer is sort of. The Code requires that I ensure employees who are at risk of catching in something wear close-fitting clothing. But aside from a variety of rules on PPE, it doesn’t specify how much skin has to be covered by clothes. That’s left up to employer discretion.

        I want to add a section into the dress code which says: “Employees who work in safety sensitive positions are required to dress appropriately for their role, taking into consideration of the following:”

        And then add stuff like if you work with the plasma cutter or grinder, wear pants.

        1. Eff Walsingham*

          Ah, Canada! Yes, until recently I was working in a warehouse with a metal roof. And can confirm that, at least in one province, you can legally be practically nekkid at work if you’re wearing PPE. When I arrived, my employer was grappling (not literally) with men who were working with no shirts on, just a harness of reflective straps. Having established a policy that shirts must be worn, we then had to get into how-short-is-too-short regarding (women’s) shorts. There were at least two young women – good workers – whose shorts did not show below their safety vests. I left before the matter was fully adjudicated. But, having spent a year on the Joint Occupational Health and Safety Committee, I can confirm that the law may not necessarily help you.

          I’m not a prude, I swear! But personally I wouldn’t feel secure doing physical work in such insubstantial clothes.

          1. OtterB*

            “When I arrived, my employer was grappling (not literally) with men who were working with no shirts on”

            Just wanted to thank you for the needed laugh from this

          2. Dragon*

            OT, but watch the episode “K-Town” from the CBS TV series S.W.A.T. (S1 E11).

            In the opening sequence, women workers in an illegal drug operation pack dangerous illegal drugs while wearing transparent full PPE over bikinis.

            1. Eff Walsingham*

              That reminds me of the time I had occasion to change in the back room of a dry cleaner’s (longish story). I passed through the area where the big presses were. It was roughly 40 degrees (the hot way) and the men who ran the presses were wearing only underwear.

    9. Lady_Lessa*

      Is there any chance of flying sparks or metal pieces? If so, then please keep the legs covered, because the cloth might prevent skin damage.

      For chemical safety, I frankly think that bare skin is safer because there is no cloth to hold the acid (for example) on the skin during the rinse/washing process.

      As far as lengths, I feel that knee level is reasonable, and for women, moderately wide skirts (not pencil because I think that they make moving harder.

      I would also stress no jewelry that can get caught in moving equipment.

      FYI, my background is chemistry and I frequently work around machinery.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Thank you for your input! We really only have two chemicals here, vinegar and isopropyl. So I’m not too concerned about spills. Sparks and metal pieces sort of (the plasma cutter sprays sparks like a firework) but they’re more of a hazard to arms than legs I think. The leather aprons are quite long.

        We do have rules about jewellery and hoodie strings and other dangling bits already, though I plan to make them clearer along with the rules for footwear.

    10. Redhaired runner*

      OSHA provides some guidance for this if you are US based. I will post a link to an article discussing this below.

    11. Observer*

      It strikes me that the bigger question is whether you should require sleeves rather than allow shorts.

      But I think that ultimately, I think that your idea about being less prescriptive, except for the safety related stuff is a good approach. So some positions are going to need long pants and sleeves, and others can go with shorts / skirts and short sleeves.

    12. Hotdog not dog*

      When my dad ran a warehouse, their dress code went by the tasks. Welders needed to have arms and legs covered, anyone working around machinery with moving parts needed to wear fitted clothing, no loose hair or jewelry; and people who didn’t interact with machinery (office, shipping, inventory, etc) could dress for their day. Undergarments, areas that would ordinarily be covered by undergarments, and offensive tattoos could not be exposed. Shop coveralls were available in case anyone needed or wanted them, but weren’t required. Closed toe shoes at all times for everyone. (The only way to access the office or restroom was from the shop floor, so even office people had to have safe shoes.) Same dress code applied to all genders.

    13. Tex*

      What about heavy knee or ankle length protective aprons, requiring pants/overalls if they are working on/or in the vicinity of X and Y machine? That way they are not 100% in pants during the summer. I am assuming that the place is not air conditioned, so the push back by all.

    14. Siege*

      What are the skirts like? If they’re knee-length skirts, you probably can’t argue against shorts, but if they’re full-length skirts (the only people I ever saw wear skirts/dresses at my warehouse job were the East African women on the cleaning crew and their skirts are full length and may have been over pants) shorts aren’t really the same thing. But we had the close-fitting requirement because of the machinery.

  33. Internist*

    I’m an intern in a technical field. I have a mentor who is supposed to be my go-to for all questions. However, he has only a year of experience and I’m realizing there are some issues he actually doesn’t know much more than me about. He makes a monumental effort to help me, but this week his ‘solutions’ have just lead me in circles and I’ve fallen behind on my deliverables.

    He is my main advocate at the company, so I’m very afraid of doing anything to alienate him, but I’m also very frustrated. Is there a way to ask to for someone else more senior to work with me at times? I don’t want to get him in trouble because he is putting in a ton of hours trying to help and I do appreciate his efforts.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Is your mentor honest about what he doesn’t know? In other words, is more like “Geez. I don’t know. I think this solution may work,” or is it more like “This is definitely the solution”?

      If your mentor is honest about the fact he doesn’t know that much more than you, you two can work together to isolate what you can actually gain from working with him and what you might want to gain from a more senior person.

      If you’re worried, however, about your mentor having a fragile ego, you may have to frame the looking for a second mentor in a more delicate way.

      1. Internist*

        Yeah, I think he has a bit of a fragile ego around this. We come from similar backgrounds and are alums of the same school, so I think he identifies closely with me and really prides himself on his work as my mentor. It makes it hard to push back against anything.

        His knowledge level has been totally fine for introducing me to the basics of our work, but as I move beyond the basics and encounter trickier problems, he doesn’t seem to realize he’s pushing up against the limits of his knowledge.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Maybe you can reach out to someone else with questions your official mentor can’t answer, but not necessarily look for a second “mentor” relationship? Hopefully, you’re allowed to talk to other people, too. It just doesn’t have to be an ongoing relationship.

    2. Hotdog not dog*

      Could you frame it as wanting a second opinion or a different perspective? As in, “I’m really interested in learning more about teapot glaze, and I’d love to get some extra background on that…who else can I speak with so I don’t monopolize your time?”

      1. A Feast of Fools*

        Yep, I was going to suggest this. And you can frame it as wanting to network, get to know more people in the company, and/or putting the things you’re learning from him into a bigger context so you gain a better understanding of how the company operates.

  35. Obviously Not the Favorite*

    This feels really stupid and petty to care about but it’s really bothering me. I’m a manager and have an assistant manager that is part of the leadership team with me and my boss (the director). Lately I’ve been feeling like my boss is playing favorites with my assistant manager in a really personal way – normally I don’t take things personally at work, but this is really bothering me.

    My assistant manager has been here about a year longer than I have, and directly reported to my boss for 2 months before I was hired (they have directly reported to me since I came onboard). They have been here 4 years, and I have been here 3 years, and our work anniversaries are relatively close together (theirs is right before mine). On my assistant manager’s work anniversary, my director sent her a not insubstantial gift card from both of us as an anniversary gift. Mine came and went a few weeks later, and all I got was a “thank you for the hard work you do” message on slack.

    Fast forward to the recent past. One of my parents has a progressive illness and recently took a turn for the worse. I had to take some time off to help care for them, and while I am not their primary caregiver, I spend a fair amount of my off time caring for this parent and helping my family. My boss knew all about this, was supportive of me taking time off, and I felt really supported by them at the time. A week later, my assistant manager had a family member hospitalized and is staying with assistant manager while they recuperate. I told them to please take all the time they need and just keep me informed of when they would be available and not available as best they could (trying to emulate how my boss treated me, which I thought was very fair and kind). Then I get a message from my boss that they have sent my assistant manager flowers because they are “having such a hard time right now” and boss has been making a big deal out of it at all our leadership meetings. They have not asked about my parent at all.

    All of the feedback I have received from my boss has been really positive and I’m not sure where this inequity of treatment is coming from. I don’t actually need gift cards or flowers or to talk about my ill parent at work, but it bothers me that my boss goes above and beyond for one of us and not the other – and the one she does it for does not directly report to her. I also don’t feel like I can say anything to my boss without coming off as petulant. But should I address it somehow? Is there a tactful way to do that?

      1. pancakes*

        I agree, and will think about it. In the meantime I don’t think it’s stupid or petty to have noticed any of this or to care about it.

    2. Former Retail Manager*

      How old is your boss and what are the genders involved? If you are male and the assistant manager is female, I could see the boss potentially behaving in a more concerned way about the ill family member of the female as compared to a male. Fair? Not really, but I can totally see that. Or perhaps the manager is assuming that you don’t want to talk about your ill parent or want to be celebrated with much fanfare if you’re male. It seems to be a viewpoint that a lot of older folks have, at least in my part of the US. Women are fawned over in certain instances much more than men. Sorry about this….it sucks to feel less appreciated and have someone not show a serious situation much empathy or concern.

      1. Obviously Not the Favorite*

        We’re all female, I’m in my late 30s, my boss is in her 40s, and my assistant manager is in her 50s.

      2. Carmen*

        I’m not sure what part of the U.S. that you are in but women are most certainly not fawned over than men when it comes to caregiving. It’s pretty well documented that if anything men are fawned over when they perform the most basic caregiving tasks that women are expected to perform. Your experience or region must be some sort of outlier.

    3. MsM*

      If this genuinely seems out of character for your boss, I think it’d be fine to note what you’ve observed about the differences in how these situations are being handled, and then say something along the lines of, “I’ve been hesitant to raise this because I doubt there’s any bad intent here, but it’s precisely because I’ve always found you to be a caring and conscientious supervisor that I thought we should talk about it before something else comes up.” It’s possible she simply thinks you as a more senior and experienced employee don’t need quite the same level of emotional support and affirmation, and wasn’t considering that it might look like favoritism.

    4. Invisible today*

      Performance review time – I’m worried… I have only been in my job a year and my previous job didn’t have self-reviews… My new boss (who will be doing my review) has only been in his position a few months. Doesn’t help that my job description doesn’t match anything I do, and my boss has neither experience nor knowledge with what I actually do (how can he differentiate between mediocrity and excellence ?).

    5. Be kind, rewind*

      Any chance your boss is doing these things for your direct report because she thinks you should be doing it but aren’t? For example, the gift card she addressed from the both of you- maybe she’s trying to make you look like a supportive manager?

      The reason I thought of this is I once had a boss who would really go out of her way to make sure I was supporting my direct reports for things like these (family emergencies, etc.), and I got the impression it was her way of trying to coach me on this.

      That being said, my boss also did these things for her own direct reports (including me), so it’s not quite the same and doesn’t fully explain why your boss doesn’t do the same for you.

      In any case, I don’t blame you for feeling slighted- I would feel the same way! And I don’t need gift card or flowers, either, but that difference would be hard to ignore.

      1. Obviously Not the Favorite*

        I’m not sure, but my boss is usually pretty direct about stuff like this. To my knowledge, we’ve never sent anyone a gift card on their work anniversary, we didn’t do it for any of the others that I’ve been here for for any of my staff. Again, if that’s what we do now – great! But in that case I don’t know why I’m being excluded. I do have another direct report whose work anniversary is coming up so I thought about asking her to clarify the new protocol of sending gift cards for work anniversaries so I can make sure that my other employee gets one. With that said, what bothers me more is that it feels directly exclusionary to me, and I’m not sure why.

    6. OtterB*

      This does seem “off” on the face of it. Since your boss was kind and helpful when you were off with your parent, and the feedback you’re getting is good, it doesn’t seem like a case of wanting to make you feel unwelcome.

      I had an employee once who really cared a lot about being made a fuss over on special occasions. She didn’t sulk if she didn’t get the attention, but she was obviously delighted when she did. I don’t remember at this point but it wouldn’t surprise me if I’d gotten a card for her for some occasion when I didn’t do it for everyone. I wonder if this is something your boss knows about the assistant manager and therefore provides, but thinks you don’t feel the same way or maybe even thinks you actively dislike fuss?

    7. Strict Extension*

      Could your boss think the assistant manager isn’t as fairly compensated in general and is trying to make up for that as a retention measure? This sounds very similar to how I’ve been treated by employers who acknowledge that I’m undercompensated but for whatever reason can’t raise my pay.

      1. Obviously Not the Favorite*

        No that’s definitely not it. She is very well compensated for her work, both in terms of her role in our company and her position across the field.

  36. Massage therapy and other career options*

    Hello! I’m considering changing careers and becoming a massage therapist. Does anyone know how to judge whether a trade school (for massage therapy or anything else) is worth the investment of time and money, and will actually help you be employable in a new career? The one I’m looking at would be $12,000 and a six-month commitment, plus I’d have to leave my current job and pay out of pocket for health insurance.

    I’d also like to hear if anyone has any ideas on how to choose and transition to a new career in general- I’m a little overwhelmed, lost, and burnt out, and I’ve already tried to leave my current field a few times with things that didn’t pan out. I’d really like more money, more room to grow, and less burnout than my current role, but I feel trapped.

    1. Anonymous healthcare person*

      Massage therapy is typically a regulated health profession, so you can look at the organization that regulates in your area (where I am, it is a College of Massage Therapists, and in Washington State it is under the health department, I think, so you will need to do some googling). That site should tell you what educational requirements are needed to be registered – for example, the course/program is accredited by X regulatory body, you need x months/years of supervised experience, etc.

      Also, ask for information interviews with at least three local registered massage therapists – which local schools are good, what is the job like, salary, pros and cons etc. I have to say, I know that where I am, the good massage therapy programs are 2 years so this seems like a short program to me – but who knows, where you are this might be totally fine. I do know that there are post-secondary schools where I am that are misleading in their advertising – do our program and become a counsellor! – when their program absolutely will not qualify someone for that job. Sigh. The regulatory organization will give you the info you need to screen for this.

      And consider career counseling too – may be offered by local colleges/universities, and/or work finding agencies, as well as privately. Healthcare tends to be associated with burnout, so if this is your problem, maybe a health related profession is not the answer? Or maybe for you it would be great? A therapist could maybe help with that piece, if you have access to this. Good luck!

    2. Former Retail Manager*

      Before you make any investment, you need to figure out what opportunities will exist after you graduate and what will be the return on investment. How much can you realistically expect to make upon graduation and how long will it take you to pay back the money you borrowed to attend school. If you’re not borrowing, great, but that you’ll still “lose” that $12k that you can’t get back.

      Anecdotally, I can say that I’ve known 2 people who attended massage therapist school at a similar cost to what you’ve mentioned. Neither is currently working as a massage therapist because the market in our large metropolitan area is oversaturated and they could not generate enough income to pay their bills consistently. One now only does it “on the side” and the other stopped altogether.

      I would also ask the school for information on graduation rates and how quickly graduates become employed after graduating and their average salaries, but beware that many of these for profit trade type schools have been notorious in the past for lying about their stats to encourage students to enroll. I’d also ask to be put in touch with recent grads from the program within the last year, but this may or may not happen.

    3. Duckles*

      I’d try to talk to as many people working in the field as you can. I only have one acquaintance who was a massage therapist but he left it some years ago because the money just wasn’t good enough.

  37. Other Alice*

    Weird advice from family and friends: someone just told me that taking Thursday off and then calling in sick on Friday looks bad. They say that since I work from home it would have been better to not say anything and pretend I was working. I think it’s bananas but I’d like a sanity check because my fever-addled brain is starting to get confused.

    For context, I took Thursday off to deal with a stressful personal thing. This was scheduled weeks in advance and my team knows why I was away (something along the lines of “I hope you enjoy your time off” / “I’m actually doing this annoying but necessary thing” / “oh good luck with that”). I already felt poorly on Thursday but couldn’t postpone The Thing so I got it done, but then on Friday morning I woke up feeling like utter crap. I immediately called my manager to let him know I was taking sick leave and I’d be back on Monday. My manager is great so he just wished me well and told me to take whatever time I need. This, I think, is how things should go in normal offices.

    However I mentioned to someone outside of work that I’ve taken a sick day and they think the optics of this are terrible. They think my colleagues will think I wanted to take a two day vacation and I’ve cheated by using one vacation day and one sick day. I understand that this could happen but as I said my workplace is good in that regard. Also, even if I worked at a dysfunctional place, I wouldn’t want to cheat and pretend like I was working while I was trying to sleep off an illness. People would notice I’m not online on slack and not answering emails, or they’d call me to ask why regular tasks aren’t getting done. I think the optics of *that* would be much worse. I think it’s a case of someone trying to give advice without knowing the realities of working remotely…

    1. KayDeeAye*

      Assuming a non-toxic workplace and assuming you’re generally reliable and haven’t demonstrated a pattern of calling in sick around a day off or other signs of flakiness, this should be a non-problem. If you’re too sick to work, call in sick. I think pretending that you’re working when you’re not is much more likely to be an issue.

      The people who say “This doesn’t look good!” have probably had toxic workplaces or toxic bosses. But if you don’t have either of those things, I honestly wouldn’t worry about it.

      1. londonedit*

        This is what I was going to say. I definitely think it would be far worse to let everyone assume you were working on the Friday and then just not be available – in my job people would definitely see that I wasn’t on Teams and I wasn’t responding to messages/emails, and that would be much more of a problem than legitimately calling in sick. In dysfunctional jobs where any absence is viewed with suspicion I can imagine a culture arising where people would just pretend to be working rather than ‘admitting’ to being ill after a day off, but assuming you have a half-decent reputation and you’re not somehow renowned for slacking off (and that there isn’t a general culture of people being renowned for slacking off/abusing time off) then I think people will be sympathetic and won’t think anything of the fact that you’re ill. Your manager is fine about it, I think it would be odd if anyone else had a problem!

    2. Littorally*

      If it was part of a pattern, it wouldn’t look great, but as a one-time thing when you’re otherwise a reliable worker, it’s almost certainly fine.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      “[Thanks for your concern, but] My manager is fine with the situation and I’m not worried about it. How about that random sportsball team?”

      (You do not have to include the “thanks for your concern” part of course, YMMV.)

    4. Fiona*

      How long have you been with your current company? If you just started a few months ago, then maybe they don’t know you and they don’t know if this is a pattern, so I understand why someone would think it’s iffy, optics-wise. If you’ve been there for a 6 months or longer, I wouldn’t spend one more moment thinking about this. It’s totally normal and I’m sure you’ve proven yourself to be trustworthy. You’re a human being, you’re allowed to take time off for illness or any other reason.

    5. Purple Cat*

      You nailed it with This is how things should go in normal offices .
      Yes, in a weird place that is restrictive with your time off, this might land differently. But their proposal of taking the day off and lying about it is much, much worse.

    6. Bagpuss*

      I think that it can look bad if it is a regular pattern or if it’s in conjunction with other behaviors – for instance, if you originally asked for both days off, were refused the Friday and then called in sick – but even then, in a normal workplace, only if it were a pattern or there were other reasons to think that you were not genuinely unwell.

    7. Cruciatus*

      The person who thinks that is very, very strange and probably has other bizarre workplace issues they need to work out as well. I’m not even sure it has anything to do with you working remotely. Even in person you could have Annoying Thing on Thursday and then need to call off on Friday as well. I’m in person and when my coworkers are sick I note the absence and never think of it again. I don’t think most people are thinking too hard about their coworkers’ sick days. As people already covered, if it’s a pattern, sure, maybe then! But if it’s just a normal human pattern then don’t worry about it.

      1. Other Alice*

        Thanks (to you & the other commenters) for the reassurance, I feel much better now and I was definitely overthinking things. Lingering stress from Thursday made me worry about a non-issue.

        I mentioned remote working because this person has a job that has to be done in person and I get the impression they think there is no way at all to check if a remote worker is slacking off. Ultimately it’s not something I care to argue with them about, though, so I’ll just refrain from taking workplace advice from them.

    8. A Feast of Fools*

      Agree with the other commenters: Your friend/family member is projecting from a place of toxic work dynamics.

      In my sane, normal company, not only would the managers not have a problem with it but neither would any of the staff.

      And we wouldn’t have a problem with it *even if* you used a sick day to take a 4-day weekend vacation, assuming anyone actually gave it any thought.

      Our conversations when someone is still out after planned PTO (even if it’s just a day of PTO) look like this:

      Coworker1: “Other Alice is offline. I had a question I wanted to run by her and I thought she’d be back today. Do you know if she’ll be in/online later?”

      Coworker2: “She’s out sick today.”

      Coworker1: “Aw, man, I hate being sick. Hope she’s OK.”

    9. Dinwar*

      I’m from one of those “toxic” work places where this would be really questionable optics. The reason is that it is a trend–laborers, driller’s assistants, and basically all the workers low on the hierarchy have a tendency to party pretty hard (it’s often why they can’t get a better job in the first place), and it’s not infrequent to have someone call in sick when they’re either 1) massively hung over, or 2) just not interested in coming in, and it’s an excuse. After you see it a few times you pick up on the pattern. Facebook has made this easier to spot, since most of these people aren’t bright enough to not post pictures of themselves doing things that sick people shouldn’t be doing, like being on jet skis on a lake, or doing keg stands, or the like.

      That said, the world ended two years ago, and a major cause of illness and death for the past two years has been “I went somewhere and caught the plague.” The rules are a little different now. As a manager I don’t want you coming in sick, even if it’s suspect timing. And you really do need to look at the situation on a case-by-case basis. The driller’s assistant who comes in every Monday with bloodshot eyes, pounding energy drinks and spending half an hour passed out behind a stockpile? I’m probably not going to believe that he’s sick. A person with a history of working extra hours and doing stellar work? Not even going to question it. Take care of yourself, get fluids, and I’ll check in on you (for reference, this is protocol started after two people nearly died because they stayed in the hotel sick, no one thought to check on them, and an organ burst).

    10. fhqwhgads*

      The only scenario where I’d agree with your family and friends’ take is if:
      A) you’ve taken at least 3 Thursdays off
      B) took a sick day on all the applicable Fridays

      Or other similar pattern. A one off? No. Unless you’re flakey or have a track record of work avoidance in general, then yeah, it looks bad.

  38. JAL*

    Looking for thoughts from the other AAM lawyers or people who also deal with volunteer professional organizations on this!

    I’ve been on the board of a local org for female lawyers for the past three years and will be transitioning into president later this year. We primarily put on CLEs, but also host happy hours, events in honor of influential local lawyers, etc. It’s entirely volunteer and there’s no staff; the board organizes everything. Some board members rarely attend the monthly meetings (and before anyone asks, we moved to virtual meetings spring 2020). The impact has been that a lot of the work falls on the same few people who do always show up at meetings. Theoretically, any programming chair could take over organizing a CLE once it is in motion, but a lot of our ideas come from our own connections – like, “there is an intellectual property lawyer at my firm who could do a CLE on NFTs” – and so naturally those few people who are there to bring up ideas are the ones who ultimately see it through to the end. Also, I literally have not laid eyes – virtually or in-person – on our treasurer since 2019. I mentioned this to someone recently and their first reaction was “are you sure she’s not embezzling the dues?” Which I am fairly certain she is not, but it is weird to have the person who controls the money be so absent.

    I think part of this is down to our current president, who is lovely but not the best at delegating, but I also think there are board members who like having the role on their bio but don’t consider the responsibilities that come with it and I’m trying to figure out how to address this. We’re all lawyers and I understand that conflicts come up that have to be prioritized over a volunteer meeting. But I also feel like if people aren’t going to participate ever, they need to roll off the board and be replaced with new people, and I’m wondering the best way to get that across.

    SO, all of that is to say, would you be offended by (or feel that’s unbearably eye-roll-y) an attendance goal for board members? Like, we have 12 meetings a year, the expectation is that you should attend at least 6 (with the understanding that work conflicts take priority)? On the one hand, it feels pre-school-y and like I’ve got an attendance chart with stickers. But I also like setting an expectation that there’s an understanding that no can be at every single meeting, but that you do have to stay involved. Or would it just be better to keep an eye on who’s not attending and check in with them after a few months to see if they still want to be on the board?

    1. Jay*

      I have served on a number of non-profit boards (synagogue, community choral group, national professi0nal organizations). Every single one has had an attendance requirement for board meetings. I know for sure that two of the orgs had that built into the bylaws – can’t remember about the others. None required that all members show up for all meetings – the percentage varied depending on the number of meetings and duties of the Board – but each one was at least 50%.

      Sounds like it might be time for a general review of process and procedure and maybe of bylaws as well. For one thing, if your treasurer is the only one handling the money, you might want to look at that. For our very very small synagogue, our part-time employee and treasurer do this together. For the chorale, it’s the treasurer and the president.

      1. Glomarization, Esq.*

        +1 The treasurer should absolutely not be the sole person who has access to the books and bank account(s).

        There are a million very good resources online for non-profit fiscal best practices. Or you can hire a consultant or a lawyer who focuses their practice on non-profits to assist. I’d really recommend that you bring someone in who is an expert in non-profit governance to have a look at what you’re doing.

      2. pancakes*

        Yes, I think it is common for attendance requirements to be incorporated in the by-laws, and I don’t see a good reason not to. It’s important.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Rather than set an attendance goal, you can check or modify your by-laws for an attendance requirement. This would be along the lines of, say, you have to attend n number or percentage of meetings per year in order to stand for re-appointment to the board. You can tie that in, as well, with a limit on the number of consecutive terms that a board member is permitted to serve (preferably staggered, so that the entire board isn’t disqualified from re-appointment at the same time).

      And, yes, checking in with members who haven’t attended recently is a good idea, too. See if you can ask them why they haven’t been attending, if they feel that they haven’t been cultivated enough, or if they’re just too busy and felt embarrassed to say they don’t have the capacity to participate, etc.

      1. Nonprofit Peaches*

        Agree with this – a goal is fine in the interim but it really needs to be codified. And moving forward, any board candidates need to be made aware of the goal/requirement before they move forward in the nomination process.

    3. MsM*

      What’s the current process for board recruitment? Are there conversations with prospective members that lay out what the role will entail, including time commitment? An orientation process reaffirming all of those expectations? Provisions in the bylaws for removing people who really aren’t pulling their weight? Defined and enforced term limits?

      If you’re not doing any or all of these things, you coming on board is a perfect opportunity to make professionalizing the board/board governance one of your commitments as president and do a bit of public education about what that entails. It might require a bigger conversation (especially with the board members you can actually trust to show up at meetings and vote on implementing things), and putting it all into action properly will take time. But the more you can do to establish all these things up front and have clear expectations you can point to if things aren’t going well, the more likely you are to end up with a board that understands and supports following best practices.

    4. OtterB*

      There are a couple of volunteer committees associated with my work. Members are mostly professors. I’m not aware of attendance requirements but they don’t meet as a whole committee very often. But they do emphasize that it is a “working committee.” Everyone is supposed to be affiliated with one of the committee projects and be working on them outside of the full meetings. Some of the activities are really time-consuming and are only taken on as passion projects. Sometimes people assist or shadow for a couple of years before taking on a big project. I don’t know if this would work for you but maybe some of your board members are organizing CLE events and others are organizing other kind of events or working on other projects, and if your work demands don’t let you do that, sorry, maybe later, but we need people on the board who can move us forward.

    5. M.*

      I serve on a board for a nonprofit, and–barring an extreme emergency or circumstance–our rule is that if you miss more than two monthly meetings in the calendar year, you forfeit your position.

    6. Bethie*

      Just wanted to say – not a lwayer – but I serve on a federal board and there is an attendance requirement. Its one meeting a month, so not difficult. But yeah that’s what I agreed to when I was elected to the board. And if I want to continue to be eligible I have to meet those attendance goals as one part of the process.

    7. Foley*

      Nope, not at all. I’m a lawyer but have not served on professional organization type things. However, in all my other volunteer orgs, being on the board requires a certain percentage of attendance. Whenever I’m asked to volunteer, this is the reason I cite for not being able to do it. (I travel extensively).

      I think you impose the rule. Have you also considered term limits? Most orgs I volunteer for have these – for a number of reasons.

  39. pollyrocket*

    I’m having a lot of anxiety over a situation that happened at work yesterday. To make it short: There is a woman who works on a project that I’ve been on for the past six months and she is extremely abrasive, condescending, is always complaining and immediately shuts down new ideas to improve any processes that affect her work. People on the team seem to think she’s a “hard-hitter”/sharp but honestly I think she’s just flat out mean. She sent me an email yesterday that was in an extremely rude tone (as if she were a parent lecturing me) because she didn’t like the way I had done something (I did make one small mistake, but the other thing she didn’t like that I had done was something she specifically asked me to do!). In her email she kept writing the phrase “that’s not how x works” (X is a process I know very well and have worked in during many other projects)

    I’ve been so frustrated for months and sent back a very terse email saying that I do know how X works, it was a misreading of an email of one of our sister governmental partners that I’m close with (and therefore have gotten too casual at reading communications from). And then at the end of the email I wrote a few sentences about how this sister government organization serves very vulnerable people and we need to do our best to help them.

    I immediately regretted my tone in the email and not too long after called my supervisor (who I have a great relationship with) to let him know. Then my supervisor’s supervisor (who was CC’d on the whole email chain between me and the other woman) called me. I think the other woman had called him after my reply to say that I still don’t understand and the main focus of his call was trying to make me understand, but then he realized I do understand and that it’s a personality conflict. He said if I’m having issues with someone next time I should bring it to him and he will speak to them because “I don’t get paid enough to be doing it myself” lol. I wasn’t asked to, but I did end up sending an email apologizing for my tone and said going forward I will always run everything by her. The woman last night sent me back an email accepting my apology and talked about how she gets super stressed Thursday’s/Fridays.

    I don’t think either my supervisor or his supervisor seemed upset with me. They both agree she can be rude and inflexible, but say it’s because she’s under a lot of stress. and I showed the email I sent to my mom and a few friends and they all said my email was really not that rude, especially in comparison to the one the woman sent me. And reading it back I agree, my tone was just short and I was a bit defensive but not something that most outside people would think was horrible.

    I’m so embarrassed over the whole thing. We both sort of apologized to each other (she at least said she is stressed and recognizes she can be curt) but I’m just dreading any meetings or future communications with this woman. Even though my supervisors don’t seem upset, I’m also super embarrassed and dreading interactions. Do any of you have tips on how to interact with a coworker after a spat? Just pretend it didn’t happen and act normal? Im definitely planning to be as pleasant as I can to her but just have such a negative view of our relationship now.

    1. pollyrocket*

      Also I wanted to add that this is the first incident I’ve had like this in my three years of work here. I work with quite a few aggressive personalities but am always able to keep pleasant and act as a peace keeper even when other staff lose tempera with them, which I think is why I’m so embarrassed. She’s a new contractor brought on in the past year who lives across the country so I’ve never met her in person.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      Act normal. There have been semi-apologies, so take those at face value unless/until she reoffends, and if she does decide how you’re going to handle this long-term. (I’m not above pushing back a bit on unreasonable people like this but it’s up to you.)

    3. Lana Kane*

      If you have both apologized to each other then I’d consider that particular situation closed and move forward as usual. Be professional and pleasant, but perhaps for your own peace of mind rehearse a few reponses to have in your back pocket next time she goes too far. Ones you feel strike the right tone that you want to convey, but still help you feel like you’re not being steamrolled by her.

    4. River Otter*

      Don’t pretend that it didn’t happen. Act as though it has been resolved, which it has. Do you see the difference?
      Don’t carry forward a negative view of your relationship. Remember that you were also under stress when you responded, and you probably appreciate that you were extended grace for your response. Promote an atmosphere of extending grace by extending your own grace, which specifically means not allowing this interaction to color your entire relationship.
      You have learned that her tone when she is under stress will come across as rude and mean to you. You can only control your own response to her tone, so work on that. If you need help on keeping your own stress reaction out of your responses, ask your supervisor for advice on wording a response. If there is a repeated pattern, you can point out the repeated pattern to your supervisor and lay out the impact that her tone has on you and say that you would like to see a change in how she communicates with you. Be as specific as possible when you ask for changes from her. “Rude“ and “mean“ are subjective and “be less rude and mean“ is not an actionable change that you can ask for.

      1. RagingADHD*

        This is an excellent insight. Moving forward after a resolution is not the same as erasing the incident. Learn the lesson and carry it forward.

    5. Globetrotter*

      Calling this a personality conflict is a cop out on your boss’s part. The woman is rude and abrasive.

      Can you call this out next time? This only works if you’re talking face to face with Ms Abrasive. Give her a look and say Excuse Me in sniffed tone. Or you could say to her that she’s not helpful.

    6. Bethie*

      Personally, when people are terse with me in email (it happened just this morning! A guy applying for our funding was super rude to one of our staff and the mistake was his fault!) I do not feel bad about sending a similarly professional, but terse, email response. You have to set your boundary. And I have found people recognize they cannot treat you that way and back off. So I doubt you did anything wrong at all. And you probably werent rude, either. But I bet she is more careful in how talks with you now – as your boss is now aware you do know your stuff and she is being rude. Even if he didnt come out and say that! Just continue to do your work like normal.

  40. Nathalie*

    *Content Warning: Mental Health/Suicide*

    Apparently multiple employees at my company have recently died by suicide (it’s a big company with lots of locations so most employees don’t know about this). The powers that be decided to send out an email to everybody mentioning that it’s Mental Health Awareness Month and with some info about our EAP. Good idea, right? Well the email they wrote up basically says “Stress can get to the best of us, if you’re stuck in a bad mental place, try taking care of your body, taking time to relax, and connecting with others” and then the phone number for the EAP at the bottom. Because when you’re feeling suicidally depressed, those are all super easy things to do and will solve your problems! /s

    I sent some feedback saying hey, it might help to actually say what specific mental health assistance the EAP offers instead of vague and unhelpful advice, but I don’t really expect anything to come of it.

    1. Miel*

      I agree with you. Good luck. Sometimes companies put out this kind of weird, unhelpful communications. :/

    2. Aggresuko*

      I wouldn’t expect that a company would actually be helpful with regards to suicidal situations.

      1. pancakes*

        Probably not, but there’s nothing to be gained by being coy or vague about precisely which resources are available through the EAP. This email is the perfect place to summarize those in a list or outline.

    3. AdequateArchaeologist*

      Our company either finally got an EAP or just swapped companies and our boss has flat out told us at least three times in person and email that our EAP covers up to 5 therapy sessions and our health insurance also covers therapy. I was thankful for that information because I assumed the mental health assistance available was going to be ultra basic “eat healthy, take a walk” that isn’t really helpful advice.

      Also, a little concerned that this is a pattern within your company.

  41. Does part time mean all the time?*

    I’d appreciate some advice of work schedule and in-office availability when you are one of the few part-time (20 hours) employees.

    I’m about to start a new job that is also a new position at the organization. I’ve had several conversations with my future manager about in-office vs remote work and schedule flexibility, but so far the answers have been vague. I’ve been told that I have the flexibility to decide when I work and the amount of in-office work, but I’m also sensing that they’d like me to be there in person most of the time and available most days.

    Due to the nature of the work, my preference is to work fewer, longer days in person with about 1/4 of the total time remote (like 2 days in-person, 1 half-day remote), but I don’t want to give the impression that I’m never working because I’m not available every day or because all of my work hours aren’t in-person. Thoughts or experiences?

    1. ferrina*

      Work out a schedule with your boss, then be consistent with it. Put your schedule in your out-of-office email when you aren’t working (so your other coworkers can reference that and get familiar with your availability).
      Congrats on the new job!

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      List your work schedule in your email signature, possibly in red font. I’m full-time so mine just says “Work hours: M-F 7a-3:30p” but you could put “Work hours: M & W 8a-4p onsite, F 8a-12p remote” or whatever.

    3. Bagpuss*

      I would aim to be consistent, and clear.
      We have a lot of part time staff and for internal use everyone’s hours are shown in their profile along with their email, dd number etc.
      For external use it’s in everyone’s e-mail signature – something like “My normal working hours are 9-3, Tuesday to Friday”

      If you will have more flexibility then something like “My core hours are 10-3, working hours outside those time will vary”
      In both cases, if you deal with things which are very time-sensitive it makes sense to also include details of who to contact if you are not available, and you may wish to add something about expected response times – e.g. “My working hours may be different to standard office hours but I will always aim to respond to e-mails / messages within x hours “

    4. Minimal Pear*

      My current job is similar–I just try to make it really clear what my hours are to everyone. I probably sound a little awkward bringing it up as often as I do, but people tend to forget! I also have my working hours blocked out on my calendar.

  42. Rusty Shackelford*

    No matter what stupid thing you did this week, you can console yourself by remembering it wasn’t as public as that Ulta email about Kate Spade…

    4. London Calling*

      Oh my days. I had to google that to find out what they said and FGS. I wasn’t aware how Kate Spade committed suicide, just that she had, but as Ulta are in the same industry I’d assume that they were aware of the details. It’s one of those – errors doesn’t seem to really cover it – that has the rest of the world screaming ‘DOESN’T ANYONE CHECK THIS STUFF BEFORE IT GOES OUT, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD???’

      The memory of that will be bringing the perp out in a cold sweat YEARS from now…

      1. Observer*

        What I *REALLY* want to know is who wrote that idiotic apology. Because calling it “insensitive” just makes it worse.

    6. Everything Bagel*

      Oh my word, I just Googled this and wow. How did they let that go out? Stupid and insensitive all the way around.

    7. The Prettiest Curse*

      As someone responsible for sending out promotional emails (to a much smaller list, in a different context), this is absolutely the stuff of nightmares. We once sent out a newsletter that had been reviewed multiple times by my entire team and still contained a paragraph of extraneous text. Sometimes when you’re in a rush you just don’t notice things that you really should notice.

    8. cubone*

      It was absolutely terrible but I did see a LinkedIn post I found kind of interesting. Basically that Ulta stocks something like 100+ brands and how common this kind of language is in marketing. Which is absolutely not to say it wasn’t a big deal or wasn’t horribly offensive, but that in all likelihood it’s some extremely low level marketing coordinator who was writing copy for half the 100 brands and this line would’ve worked for you know, 99 of those 100. And this is the one exception. I know some people will say “how could you not know Kate Spade died?!” But a 20 year old entry level staff member would’ve been 15 when that happened and truly could’ve had no idea/been under pressure to produce so much content and copy there was no bandwidth for thinking. It’s one of those emails/content that is so generally basic and formulaic that it’s not that surprising it went out without thorough review.

      Obviously it goes to show the checks and balances needed, but I heard a lot of criticism that seemed to suggest this was some big campaign that would’ve had so many eyes on it and how could this happen/what an insensitive idiotic thing to do. But while incredibly shitty (and Ulta needs to take responsibility for), I sort of see exactly how it happened and i wonder if it’s one of those things where all the holes in the Swiss cheese unfortunately lined up at the same time.

      (For the record I adore nothing more than mocking bad or thoughtless marketing copy, but I just thought this was an interesting perspective to consider)

      1. ThatGirl*

        I’m a copywriter, and I very much doubt it was intentional — but it was definitely insensitive, and unfortunate, and there should be someone reviewing these things before they go out who caught it.

      2. Siege*

        Anyone remember the American Apparel “clouds” photo a number of years back? A young intern posted the pic not realizing it was the trail of the challenger as it blew up. Having also seen an early-pandemic photo of a COVID virus labeled “Christmas ornament” it’s a little hard to get worked up about an unintentionally insensitive comment. It’d be easier to catch the written subject line rather than a misidentified photo, but there’s also a sort of “gotcha” quality to not realizing it was a terrible mistake and moving on.

  43. Rainbow Care Bear*

    Interviewing for jobs – I know in the past, it wasn’t advised to directly ask about work/life balance, as in “how do you feel about the work/life balance here?” so I’ve always tiptoed around it by asking things like “do you feel like you can fully disconnect during weekends and vacations?”

    Do you feel this norm has changed because of… everything? For context, I’m interviewing for jobs but I’m not in a huge rush to find something, so I have the opportunity to ask questions I might not ask if I NEEDED the job.

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      I usually ask things like –
      What does a typical week looks like for someone in the role?
      Can the requirements of the role normally be fulfilled in 40 hours a week?
      Are there busy periods that require longer hours and how often does that typically happen?
      Are there expectations that employees be reachable on weekends and vacations, and if so how often do they need to be contacted?

      None of these are subtle, and that’s fine. If my potential job is somewhere that discounts me because they need me to imbalance my life for them, I’m glad to be crossed off their list. I typically lead in with something like – “I know the unexpected can happen and lead to occasional long hours or off hours work, and I’m fine with that, but……..”

    2. Ashley*

      Since this was a factor in why I was changing job, to me it is a must establish. Asking about hours and overtime / non core hour tasks seemed to help. Also, how do they handle time off for things like dentist appointments. I like using dentists because it is a regular occurring thing that doesn’t signal health issues, and also they may tip their hat at benefits a little sooner.

    3. Justin*

      During my job search, I didn’t ask so much as drop hints that if they didn’t like it they wouldn’t have moved me on.

      Stuff about how I have set times I need to drop off my son, etc etc.

    4. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I was pretty clear in my interview that I am interested in this job because my field has no work/life balance. I didn’t fear being up front about it because it was a deal breaker for me if that was a turn-off. It sounds like you are in a similar situation, you dont NEED to jump, so you can ask the tough questions and if that disqualifies you then you probably didn’t want it anyway.

      If I was working in my field I would probably make more than double what I make now and I was fully expecting the question why would you consider this job.

    5. Annie Moose*

      Honestly I think a question about the disconnecting on weekends/vacations is more direct than “how is work/life balance”! Asking generically about work/life balance is a bit vague and could get you vague answers–a more specific question like the weekends/vacations one might get you better answers.

  44. DisneyChannelThis*

    Any doctors in the house?

    My friend needs therapy for anxiety and probably some depression. She’s a family physician in the US. If she sees a therapist she’s required to report it to the medical license group. She is too afraid to ask her former mentors about it as they might have to report it. Any medical doctors been through this circus before?

    1. Jay*

      I’m a doc who has been licensed in three US states and have never had the requirement. When I renew my license, I have to answer a question that says “do you have any mental or physical illnesses that interfere with your ability to do your job?” I have both mental and physical illnesses and the answer to that question is always “no” because they are well-managed. It took me way too long to get effective treatment for my depression because of the stigma for docs and I hope she can find some help soon.

      I wonder if she’s misunderstood the rules – but it’s also possible there’s a state in the US that has this ridiculous rule. I shouldn’t be surprised. If I were her, I’d check with the AAFP (the national organization for family docs). I’d also check to see if there’s an anonymous help line from the medical licensing bureau – my state has one for substance abuse. Other resources – if she has kids, there’s a huge group on FB called PMG (Physicians Mom Group) where people post anonymously. There’s almost always someone who can help. It’s a secret group so you have to know someone to get invited. My Email is linked to my name and you’re welcome to share it with her.

    2. No Name Yet*

      I’m a non-physician licensed mental health professional, and I’ve had the same experience as Jay – basically word-for-word, licensing boards asking if I have a mental/physical illness that *interferes* with my ability to do my job. I also have to sign off (and have a physician sign off) on the same thing for re-credentialing at my hospital every 2 years. So I would definitely encourage her to look again and see if it distinguishes getting any care vs. symptoms negatively impacting her work (and maybe have someone else look at the rule as well, since anxiety and depression can tweak how we read things).

  45. Future Medical Coder*

    Just graduated with my medical coding degree, and I’m waiting on my licensing exam results! I’ve been checking out job listings, and of course they all list 2+ years coding experience. To those of you in the field, how accurate do you think that is? Any tips for applying? I haven’t seen a single listing that doesn’t officially require previous coding experience. For reference I’ve been working in a medical clinic for the last few years in insurance authorizations, so I’m not totally new to working with codes.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Not accurate. Always apply if you have like 1/4 the qualifications, just be honest about what you do have and not have.

      There’s a cool/depressing study that shows this leads to gender differences in the field too, as women more likely to only apply if 90% the qualifications match what they have but for men it was much much lower like I want to say 60%?

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Facility coding manager for a large academic healthcare system here. I’m not sure what the requirements are for our physician coders off the top of my head, but on the facility side –
      Our inpatient team (ICD-10-CM and ICD-10-PCS coding) requires 2+ years of inpatient coding experience.
      Our outpatient surgery/observation team (ICD-10-CM and CPT coding) requires either 1 year of outpatient surgery coding experience OR 2-3 years of coding for ancillary hospital services.
      Our ancillary team (ICD-10-CM coding only) requires a certification and some sort of medical-adjacent background (like your clinic work with ins auths), but not specifically coding experience.

      Did your program involve an externship? Was there a coordinator at that facility you could reach out to, do a little networking? Is there anyone at your current clinic you could talk to about ways to get coding experience? It’s possible that smaller practices may be looser in their requirements than big hospital systems – we have such a wide case mix in terms of what we see that we have to be pretty stringent about it. The time and resource distinction between training someone to be a brand new coder from scratch (because ok, generic-you have a degree and a certification, but the real world is not like the classroom :) ) and training someone who has coding experience as a background to pick up the nuances specific to our organization is literally 12 months of training vs 3-4 months of training, and we just don’t have the resource capacity for it — we’ve tried.

      1. Future Medical Coder*

        Unfortunately no externship! I completely get that there’s a difference between being brand new (which I am!) and being someone with practical experience that can jump right in. I know enough to know that hospital coding is probably a bit more than I’m ready for at this point, I’m hoping to start with physician coding since that’s a bit more straightforward and something I have a lot more experience with. I’m trying to suss out the jobs that seem to be more entry-level (while still requiring 2+ years experience) from the ones that are more advanced with the same requirements.

  46. Anonymoose*

    Has anyone participated in a Diversity / Equity / Inclusion training they would recommend? My workplace set up a DEI staff advisory group and we are looking to organize an in-person workshop/training for ourselves to get us started and help generate ideas for meaningful activities we can organize or initiatives we can look into. I get the sense the commitment to the group’s work from management is genuine, and other similar advisory groups have been able to make meaningful changes.

    I’d also love suggestions of workplace DEI initiatives you’ve seen that were meaningful or well run.

    1. No Tribble At All*

      I really appreciated when our company did a full review of salary by experience level, country, & gender. At comparable levels, men & women made within 5% of each other in the USA…. but there were no women with > 10 years experience, and the non-technical staff were overwhelmingly women, so the average woman’s pay was much much lower than the average man’s. :(

      They also revamped (re: incerased) our parental leave policy which was nice.

      1. Justin*

        My new company does this evert 3 years and then matches anyone who is below market rate or peers. This is the best form of equity, paying people. And I say this as an anti-racism researcher in my spare time.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Unconscious bias is always pretty interesting to discuss. Especially in terms of hiring
      Invisible disabilities
      Inclusive language
      Interfaith diversity and inclusion (especially around times like Ramadan)

    3. Scotlibrarian*

      I train online on ‘How to be an autism inclusive employer’ for a charity providing employment support for disabled people. We’ve trained orgs from large aerospace companies, to tiny charities and have consistently great feedback. All 3 of us trainers are autistic, which is really uncommon, but very important with such a negatively stereotyped disability

    4. RosyGlasses*

      I was very impressed with the certificate program from USF Muma School of Business. It was six or seven weeks, and I took it when it was free as their inaugural offering, but the speakers and panels were fantastic and I walked away with a book of notes.

    5. Anon for this*

      I’ve done a ton of DEI related trainings over the decades and generally they are fine but not great. But my company hired the Adaway group a few years ago (pre-covid and pre-George Floyd) and I was incredibly impressed by them. I know they are in high demand these days, but I would recommend them with zero hesitation.

  47. Bexy Bexerson*

    I have a meeting this afternoon, and I’m not happy about it. It also doesn’t help that the person who scheduled it is an absolutely incompetent mess all around…so he’s already on my shit list.

  48. Innie*

    What is the commentariat’s take on a corporate job (Fortune 50) that hints toward a possible layoff nearly every quarter?

    I have been here a decade in a customer facing role. Either layoffs end up happening but on a very small scale, or they don’t happen at all. With one recent exception where 3k were laid off including my manager but not me.

    I live with low level anxiety about it even though in some ways it would be a relief. My husband pointed out that it happens nearly every quarter and wondered what they are trying to accomplish by doing this. My thoughts are maybe pushing folks to leave, or a way to make people feel grateful to be employed to discourage complaining about pay/benefits or asking for more.

    1. Colette*

      They’re trying to make the numbers look good for their quarterly reports, I suspect. It’s nothing about the employees at all.

        1. Colette*

          They want less of their budget allocated to salaries. I don’t think it’s about the overall expenses.

          1. pancakes*

            Yes, agreed.

            If your company is publicly traded it might be interesting to see what, if anything, financial analysts have said about this. Search your company’s name + “quarterly earnings call” or “investor relations” and you may be able to find some analysis to look at.

          2. Filosofickle*

            Yes. On balance sheets, it’s about moving around assets (what they have) vs. liabilities (what they owe). Salaries and benefits are liabilities. By reducing those, the ratio of what they have to what they owe gets better and investors like to see that. (It really sucks that our accounting model counts people as liabilities instead of assets.)

    2. ferrina*

      That sounds awful and would really mess with my head. But some people would be able to roll with it. Depends on how you feel.
      I have no idea why they would do that, but now I’m tempted to search the Dilbert archives to find the Pointy-Haired Boss’ perspective.

    3. pancakes*

      I want to point you toward a Washington Post article about corporate profits last year. To my knowledge this trend has continued. I’ll link separately.

      “With few exceptions, big businesses are having a very different year from most of the country. Between April and September, one of the most tumultuous economic stretches in modern history, 45 of the 50 most valuable publicly traded U.S. companies turned a profit, a Washington Post analysis found.

      Despite their success, at least 27 of the 50 largest firms held layoffs this year, collectively cutting more than 100,000 workers, The Post found.

      The data reveals a split screen inside many big companies this year. On one side, corporate leaders are touting their success and casting themselves as leaders on the road to economic recovery. On the other, many of their firms have put Americans out of work and used their profits to increase the wealth of shareholders.”

    4. Lalala*

      I worked for a company (now acquired by a bigger company) that had that reputation. I did not know it when I took the job. I found out only after the layoff

      Salaries and benefits are in one bucket, and severance packages are in a different bucket. So corporate plays games with accounting, and the had layoffs every quarter to make the numbers look good. Interestingly, their severance packages were very good, so it wasn’t as bad as it could have been. I don’t know how it was sustainable in the long run.

      Then there was another company who was rumored to put manufactured equipment into tractor-trailer containers in the parking lot and claim they shipped product. I guess because it had left the building.

  49. FMLA blues*

    Am I going to look out of touch if I ask for a raise and small title bump (analyst to senior analyst) a month after being out on medical leave? I’m a strong performer when I’m not sick and have made several documented above-and-beyond contributions in my role. But I’ve been struggling with my chronic illness over the last year, nearly running out of FMLA last year and I was out for 3 weeks this spring. I’ve been in my current role for 2 years and was in a similar role in a different department for 3 years before that. Do I just need to accept that I’ll need to wait until I’ve been stable for a while, or would it be reasonable to have a talk with my boss?

    1. MsM*

      I think you probably know your boss and the company culture best, but if the work you’ve been doing in the month you’ve been back supports your argument, and you’re confident you could handle whatever increased responsibilities come with the promotion even if your health takes a turn again, I don’t think you need to wait some arbitrary amount of time to make your pitch.

    2. Camelid coordinator*

      I worry it is a little soon. Do you have the kind of relationship with your boss where you could ask for advice on the optimal timing, since really it is your boss who will have to make the case?

      1. FMLA blues*

        We haven’t discussed it before, but he’s recently encouraged everyone on the team to complete their employee profiles with career goals and accomplishments and has said to set up a meeting if we want to discuss our performance reviews and/or career development. So he should at least be open to a “what does it take to get there” conversation. Maybe I need to start there. I’ve been trying to tiptoe around the elephant in the room all this time.

        1. Camelid coordinator*

          Sounds like starting there will work! You’ll feel better having taken that step, too. Good luck!

  50. Ghosted*

    What is the deal with companies making contact THEN ghosting?

    I’m used to applying for jobs and never hearing back at all, but this is new for me. I applied for a position about a month ago, didn’t hear anything, and moved on with my life. On Tuesday, I received an email from a department supervisor at the company apologizing for the delay and inviting me to interview with him. The email was detailed and personalized to my circumstances. He asked for my availability for the rest of the week, including the weekend. I responded within an hour of receiving the email. I haven’t heard back yet, and I plan on following up today.

    Others I’ve spoken to have shared similar experiences in their recent job searches. My question is twofold. Is this a normal thing now, and how do I deal with it?

    1. ferrina*

      In my experience it’s always been a normal thing. They start the hiring process, then a big work project explodes and they put it on hold. Or an indecisive manager delays a decision. Or the budget that you were assured was earmarked for the position suddenly evaporates and you’re told to indefinitely freeze the hiring process (but don’t tell the candidates that, in case we want to talk to them later). I’ve been on the hiring side where all of these things have happened (all for different jobs).

    2. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      Yeah normal. I had an interview Tuesday for a job I did the initial HR screen over a month ago and hadn’t heard a word about it until they set the interview up.
      I also have another one where I know the hiring manager wants to interview me but the recruiter hasn’t done that yet, and it’s been a week. She warned me that they were slow. But it is frustrating on our side for sure. Especially since I had 3 final round interviews a few weeks ago and am officially 0 for 3 on all of them. Just reiterated job searching is one of the worst things ever.

    3. ecnaseener*

      It’s only been 3 days since you last heard from him? That’s not ghosting, that’s just swamped or disorganized.

  51. Can't Sit Still*

    Suggestions to lure people back in to the office?

    So, we’ve officially been “back in the office” for a month and my team…isn’t. My manager has asked me for suggestions to lure people into the office, but honestly, I can’t think of anything. The “suggestions” she’s received from other managers will only lead to even more people quitting, e.g. taking attendance and various threats. I think we are out of luck until the company’s management gets their act together.

    There have been market adjustments to salaries, bonuses were all at the top of the scale this year, they’ve added a couple of extra personal days to our time off policy, we have a permanent hybrid schedule for employees who can WFH, so they haven’t been completely tone deaf.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      1. What can they get in the office that they can’t at home?
      2. What is more appealing about being home, can any of that be implemented in the office? (on site childcare, doggy daycare onsite, relaxed dress code, more flexible PTO)

      Can you do company provides lunch once a week ?

      Are there aspects of meetings that would be easier in person? my office discovered drawing on a real whiteboard together pales to drawing on zoom slides virtually for some reason.

      But at the end of the day – why do they really need to be in the office?

      1. Everything Bagel*

        That’s the thing of it, isn’t it? Why do they have to be in the office? If you can’t say, look, everyone needs to be in the office because work’s not getting done or other actual issues, then maybe you need to accept that you don’t need everyone to be in the office. If you can’t make an actual case for the need to be there and you have to lure people in, you really need to take another look at what the company’s needs really are.

    2. ferrina*

      My office has had the best results with free lunches and happy hours. (We also have vaccine manadates for anyone coming into the office and are very supportive of each other’s Covid risk tolerance).
      But also accept that some people just won’t be coming in much. I’ve got two young kids, and I love being able to actually spend time with them between work and bedtime, something that my hour-long commute won’t let me do.

    3. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      Please have plans for outbreaks! The thing that makes me most nervous about in the office is that they have no plan for the team being knocked out for a week or two. What if a worker is permanently out for the count? What will you do?

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      Why does your manager want people back in the office? Maybe if there’s a compelling real reason (not just “butts in seats”), that might help people understand better why they should be there.

    5. Person from the Resume*

      So people have been told they need to be in the office 5 days a week and they’re just not showing up.

      Sounds like basic, enforce the rules situation. And if people aren’t following the rules there needs to be consequences up to firing.

      Now your company/management needs to decide if this is a hill they are willing to lose employees over, but this is very unfair to people in lower positions with less capital who feel like they must follow the rules while others are ignoring them. Your management needs to get its shit together.

      1. Mannequin*

        “The “suggestions” she’s received from other managers will only lead to even more people quitting, e.g. taking attendance and various threats. I think we are out of luck until the company’s management gets their act together.”

        Yep, their management needs to get it’s shit together, but not in the way you are suggesting.

        1. Person from the Resume*

          In your opinion in what way does the management need to get its shit together that’s different than what I meant?

    6. Charlotte Lucas*

      Has anyone tried asking the employees what would make the office more appealing?

      I agree with everyone who says you need to have a good reason to want people back, have a contingency plan in place, & make any new policies appealing, not punitive.

    7. Art3mis*

      Servers bringing me drink refills, mozzarella sticks, and fries. Maybe some TVs. I’m not even kidding. Also, I’m not going back to even business casual. Tshirts and lounge pants is what you’re getting.

    8. OtterB*

      Are they expecting everyone back 5 days a week? That would be a tall order in my workplace.

      We’re struggling with this a little. We were always flexible about WFH even before the pandemic. Now there’s no way everyone would come back. Plus we now have a substantial remote contingent, probably 20% of us. I agree with food – our in-person staff meetings have always included lunch, and we’re gradually getting back to holding those. The last time we had one, everyone who was local came in for it. And it *was* nice to see each other and chat about projects and non-work stuff.

      1. Can't Sit Still*

        No, we’ve finally gone to a hybrid schedule at least. But as more people come back to the office, there are more and more cases. And our local executive really, really wants butts in seats. For no reason, really, just “collaboration.” Unfortunately, our office is not set up to allow my team to collaborate in person, and it’s much easier to collaborate via Teams. Plus, it’s really difficult to come up with a good reason that people who have been exceeding their targets for the past 2 years need to come back to the noisy, tiny, cramped office, where people want to “collaborate” with them.

        I’m going to go with a food plan – lunch, bagel breakfasts and the occasional happy hour, which should cover all of the bases. We won’t get everyone, all the time, but we should cover most preferences. (Happy hour always ends around 4:30 pm or so, is paid time, and is generally more like an early dinner than cocktail hour.) I am planning some team building activities that they have been asking for, which will not necessarily get them into the office, but will get them some face time.

        1. Anonny NonErson*

          This really sounds more like a “I want you to WANT to do the dishes” thing.

          You can’t make them want to be there. You can ask them how to make it the more palatable choice, and you can even invoke consequences if they do not come into the office – but you can’t make them WANT to come into the office.

          We are hybrid, but I make absolutely sure any day I require my team to be on site has an agenda (so they know WHY we are on site that day), food (because everyone loves food) and that we are productive.

          We aren’t there just to be there – we have a list/agenda, and we work that list.

          I also make sure to get feedback before scheduling the specific day – if Tuesday are always gonna be a bad day for Employee A, I don’t even consider it an option to schedule something for that day.

        2. allathian*

          Sounds like your local executive is completely out of touch with the current reality.

          No matter what you do, you can’t make your employees WANT to come to the office. They might come if they’re forced, but they’re just as likely to leave, and they’ll certainly be less happy and less productive.

          The only way that it might work is if your employer would be willing to renovate the office to make collaboration easier and more productive, but even that’s uncertain.

          But in your place, I’d be assuming that most of your productive, effective employees are going to leave once it dawns on them that they need to come to the office because the executive wants them there, even if there’s no actual work-related need for that.

        3. Irish Teacher*

          OK, then it sounds to me like the problem isn’t really how to get people back, but rather how to convince management that getting people back is a bad idea. It sounds like collaboration would be easier working from home and there would be less risk of covid and that there is really no benefit to bringing people back. I really think any way you try to “lure people back into an office where covid cases are rising and there is no practical reason for bringing them back” is going to make people feel (rightly, it seems) like the company cares more about the rules than the safety of its workers and that may increase people wanting to leave.

          From what you have said, it sounds like working from home is the better idea all ’round and you are unlikely to be able to convince people otherwise.

    9. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Assuming that the job is going to require back in the office, no matter what, and that isn’t negotiable…

      Transportation or parking subsidy or reimbursement. One of the sucky things about being back in the office is that people have to go back to some big time and money expenses…commuting and paying for parking.

      I’m actually one who hates office food — I like to choose my own meals and have the time AWAY from the office — so that wouldn’t be an incentive for me. Don’t think a donut is going to fix it.

      Flex start and end times so that people can plan around family schedules or traffic…or sleeping in an extra 30 minutes.

      Make the office environment more appealing if possible — eliminate open offices, or hot-desking, or make cubicles just a better place to be (nicer chairs, shelves, lighting, IDK). There were a lot of office “efficiencies” that were tolerated pre-pandemic that aren’t going to cut it anymore. I want a comfortable space free of distractions with the technology I need to do my job. If video meetings are going to stick around, provide top of the line headphones and connectivity in the office.

    10. Observer*

      This jumped out at me: the suggestion of “taking attendance “. This is not grade school.

      Maybe one of the problems is that people don’t want to come into the office because then they will have to deal with people who operate like they are in an unruly elementary school.

    11. Princess Xena*

      I would start small, but coordinated. In the next two weeks, pick a day that works for everyone and have that be the ‘in-office’ day. Then see what happens.

      But it depends on how much your team needs to be in person. Do you have a lot of collaboration? Just a little bit? Do y’all tend to long Slack discussions, emails, or meetings that could have been a 5 minute question? Or do you all work mostly solo and are good with a 15-minute check in at the end of the day? Because that’s really what’s going to drive how often people are willing to come in.

    12. Quandong*

      Perhaps this is the wrong question, given all the background.

      The Bosses want in-person office attendance purely for their pre-pandemic traditional approach. The employees know they can be successful and effective and safer working from home and that it’s easier to find work now than in the past.

      What if the question is actually, how can we attract new employees to the positions that will soon become vacant due to the company’s retrograde insistence on employees attending the office?

      Do you personally believe the employees currently WFH can be lured to the office with food & drinks etc at this point in time?

    13. Dragon*

      I think it’s less a matter of luring people back into the office, and more a matter of distinguishing between when one can WFH vs. when one should come into the office.

      Anyone WFH has to be a lot better at communicating by email or text, and answer a question promptly, correctly and completely. If something is or gets too complicated, either get on the phone or screen share. But then, the latter requires the other person to be near their computer.

      If getting a project done depends on another person being in the office to do it, you should be there too. Questions and unexpected snags are best dealt with face-to-face, without the lag time between or competition with email/text/phone tag.

      And that’s assuming the in-office person is equipped to handle your project. Not just someone who happens to be physically there, so you’re just pulling in whoever’s available.

  52. jennyjenny*

    I manage a team with 3 direct reports and have been in role for almost a year, having from a managerial role at a comparable company. I am a 40 year old woman with a lot of experience in my industry. My direct reports are all women in their 50s. Two are great; one seems hell-bent on disliking me.

    To be honest, her work is decent – not awful, not amazing – but her soft skills are really lacking. When I first started, several people, including her prior manager, approached me to basically say, “Oh, ho, let me tell you about HER,” I asked them not to and let me make my own judgment calls. But, in my almost full year, I’ve gotten probably 4-5 incidents of people having interpersonal conflicts with her. For the first few, I perhaps naively tried to be direct with her about her soft skills and coach her to listen to the point of the view of the person with whom she is having a conflict, but she views this as me criticizing her and gets very upset about it. She has difficulty accepting that she may not be 100% in the right and perceives me explaining this to her as me not being supportive of her. She is very good at making herself the sole victim I any conflict. I have been told by own superiors not to bother trying to coach her and “that’s just how she is.” Even things like cheerfully suggesting she look at some internal soft skills resources gets her back up (I even offered to get her to a cool leadership conference for a couple of days!). She has become very condescending to me, often making subtle digs at my age and expertise. It’s clear to me that her prior managers never “bothered” and, at this point, I don’t know if I can repair the relationship. My higher ups have told me that this has been a long-standing issue, and would be supportive of a path to termination, but that path is going to be the long drag of a PIP (which is always hard, especially when it’s about someone’s behaviour rather than their actual work).

    I don’t know if my mental health can take the next few months of having her on a PIP. I am very, very close to an offer elsewhere, and I feel like I should just take it and leave this mess. But I feel bad about it, since I know some next manager will be left with it.

    Thoughts? Experiences?

    1. ferrina*

      You get to do what’s best for you.

      If that’s leaving the company, take the offer and go. You’ve done your part to try to manage this person, but the company hasn’t given you a lot of support. That’s on them.

      If you want to get through the PIP, do it. It’s a not fun few months, but it is well worth it in the long run (though if you think management might allow her to fail the PIP and then won’t terminate her, leave)

      If you want to silo her to somewhere where she can do the least damage, that’s an option too. Her reward for being mediocre but hard to work with is that she doesn’t get to work with anyone (if she’s left off of projects, that’s a foreseeable outcome of her actions) and that she gets raises based on her work (again, foreseeable outcome). Just so long as she isn’t getting the same praise/merit increase as the rockstar easy-to-work-with coworkers, and is actually getting things in line with her value to the company (which is less due to her attitude).

    2. Ashley*

      As hard as this is, imagine if any of her former managers had taken the time to do what needed to be done to avoid this situation now. If at all possible take the opening and do the work for the PIP. If her soft skills are that bad she may not make it through the PIP and just torpedo herself. Plus what if the other offer isn’t everything you want in final negations and you just dragged out her tenure that much longer for yourself. Don’t do anything that will cause major mental health damage, but if at all possible do what you can to stop the madness.

    3. Jackie*

      Obviously, prioritize your own mental health first.
      I think it’s fair to ask yourself if the difficult person dragging down the other two? If so, if you can handle it I think the best thing to do is start building up a case for a PIP even if you do leave (so the next manager has something to build on).
      I have worked with this type of difficult person and they don’t usually change. You have tried coaching and she is not receptive. It’s possible that nobody has told her before that her behavior could result in termination, so putting that on the table with a PIP may make a difference.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      I want to reframe this a little while you think about this. It sounds like she’s crossed the line into insubordinate – being rude and condescending to your manager is a HUGE red flag. She’s not coachable, she’s resistant to feedback, and she won’t engage with you in any way that’s constructive. Plus she’s difficult to work with across the board. These are a HUGE part of anyone’s job, and it sounds like everyone in a leadership position with her both before you and above you has abdicated all responsibility for managing her. When you came on board to your role, people wanted to tell you about her in a way that sounds gossipy, and it’s probably good you didn’t engage with that format, but FORMAL information, like a PIP would have been incredibly helpful (plus an appropriate manager hand off discussion). I really think you should consider leaving that kind of documentation for her future manager as the least you can do in this instance.

      I totally get not wanting to deal with that as someone who struggles with mental health myself, but seriously a big part of your role is managing this person, even though they’re unpleasant. And you have the authority to tell her to knock it off. Allison has tons of scripts about things like this, but ultimately it boils down to – Being collegial with coworkers and willing to engage in constructive conflict resolution conversation is part of everyone’s job there. So is being open and responsive to performance feedback from their manager. Going forward, she needs to listen to feedback you provide without being rude or condescending. You’re not trying to argue with or demean her, but help her be more successful in her role. These are requirements for continued employment there. Can she commit to the things laid out in this PIP or would she prefer to have a conversation about setting an end date?

      You can also include the softskills training as a requirement of the PIP. I’m sure people are avoiding working with this person and making her less effective at her job.

      Basically, you have the power in this situation. If this person can’t perform this key part of the role, at least set future managers up for being able to replace her if you don’t want to go that far yourself.

    5. NaoNao*

      The only thing I can think of is maybe completely flipping it around:

      –Ask her about her development goals, career path and career goals. Is she where she wants to be? If not, what does *she* think the issue is?

      –What would help her interact with others more smoothly? What is standing in the way of her having pleasant interactions?

      –What is the best way to give feedback, coaching, suggestions, and the like? What is her preferred style and what works? Do the Alison “Given that I’m going to need to give you feedback and suggestions, what’s the best way to do that?”

      –Proactively ask her for help in keeping morale and culture friendly and upbeat and personal. Ask her to “brainstorm” ideas with you about how the team can work together successfully and comfortably.

      –Is there anything she needs at work? What blockers, issues, problems, and long-standing gripes does she have? Is there a core “root cause” issue that’s making her miserable?

      1. ferrina*

        This works when the issue is caught early, but at this point she might see this as you surrendering. When someone has been allowed to continue bad behavior indefinitely and they are actively belligerent to everyone, this isn’t about helping pave the way for her success- it’s about her meeting a low bar of bare minimum professionalism.
        When I worked with this person, she pointed the finger at everyone but herself, and when she did acknowledge her bad behavior, she justified it and said the rest of us should learn to live with it.

    6. anon for this today*

      I’m going to ask some diametrically opposed questions. I am very demographically similar to you (age/gender).

      * Why does putting her on a PIP involve your mental health? Can you dig in and get concrete here? Is it that your mental health will suffer if she is mean to you? Is it that your mental health will suffer as she’s mean to other people and you feel it’s your fault? What aspects of your mental health are at risk? Are you afraid of depression, of anxiety, of discomfort with social discord? What are the consequences of these effects for your mental health? The consequences of falling into deep depression are different than the consequences of being uncomfortable in a social situation, for instance.

      * To what extent do you put pressure on yourself to be liked? What does being liked get you? Conversely, what does being disliked get you?

      * What do you actually want, in your career and in this job? Will you be able to get what you want if you are not able to manage difficult employees?

      As with all feedback, this feedback tells you more about me than about you :) (That’s from Tara Mohr, Playing Big.) But as I’ve been on my leadership/management journey, I’ve actually had to work through this a lot and am working on it literally today. What decisions or actions am I avoiding because I am afraid someone will be mad at me or be mean to me? What is more important, to manage my work with integrity or avoid having an asshole who everyone knows is an asshole yell at me? He’s a jerk to me even when I’m nice, so what do I lose or gain by managing work as it should be managed rather than trying to avoid him “being mad” at me? This has been personally quite challenging as I was raised to be “nice” above all — but that does not serve my company or me. And yeah, as I’ve dug into some conflicts at work and stopped avoiding them, little by little I’ve discovered how much I can do, how surprisingly my managers have my back, and how much less blowback I get than I expected.

      I did not work through all of this alone; I have actually worked with a coach for some of this, which for me has been very helpful, especially I was not raised with close family in corporate/managerial roles.

      1. jennyjenny*

        This is great food for thought, thank you. I have done a lot of personal thinking about this, too, and I agree it’s deeply rooted in the (female) desire to be nice, the result of long-held societal pressures. In the past, when I have had to coach people, even those with difficult behaviours, it’s resulted in at least some success. With this particular employee, whether I decide to be direct or indirect, it results in her, essentially, going on the warpath. For example, she will send long e-mails all about how hurt she is, how hard she works, and how dare anyone question her. She will take any attempt at constructive guidance as an insult, even when I very much sugarcoat it. I am, in general, an empathetic person, and I don’t want her to feel bad. That is on me, and I need to get over it. At the very core, I believe her behaviour is because she cares so much about her job – to an unhealthy extent, honestly – that she perceives any challenge to her as something deeply, deeply personal. Because of this, I spent a lot of time considering how best to approach her – as though finding just the right words will unlock some heretofore unknown door – and I know that this isn’t a healthy or productive behaviour. I myself am frustrated that my managerial toolbox hasn’t worked, and that manifests in anxiety and repeated second-guessing of what I say. I used to be a lecturer, and I would always have trouble sleeping as my brain decided to rehearse my lectures to get them just so, and now my brain is doing the same thing when it comes to giving feedback to her, and that is seriously messing with my sleep. Regarding the PIP, I know it will absolutely cause an explosion, but avoiding it isn’t the answer, even though many of my predecessors have chosen avoidance, and I totally understand why they did that.

        I too wasn’t raised with any family in the education or corporate life. It was rural farm folk, conservative Christian, women are good, good helpers growing-up life for me, and thank you for the reminder to consider that lens on it.

    7. Observer*

      I am very, very close to an offer elsewhere, and I feel like I should just take it and leave this mess. But I feel bad about it, since I know some next manager will be left with it.

      If the other job is a better fit, then take it and don’t worry about the next manager. If it’s just about this person, though, and this job is actually mostly better, then you should probably bite the bullet and start working on the PIP, and termination if it comes to that.

      Your mental health will almost certainly improve, because just taking bad behavior is MUCH harder on one’s psyche than doing something about it, even if that something is a long and annoying slog.

  53. Beebee*

    I have a meeting with my boss today to go over a new role I am (hopefully) moving into. Right now I do Teapot Admin but this role would be more like Teapot Product Design. It’s not a stretch role as it’s work I’ve already been doing for a year and have proven I am good at. Past jobs have also told me they want me to move into Teapot Product Design, but every job I’ve had ended up dragging their feet and keeping me as an admin and having me do both jobs under the admin title which makes it hard to break out of those roles in the future. It’s why I’ve left 2 of my 3 past jobs. I was very clear “admin” could not be in the new job title because it is not reflective of the new work I will be doing.

    And…. The contract I was sent yesterday was for Teapot Product Design Admin. I brought up how this isn’t the role we discussed or what I’ll actually be doing (the new role has no admin work) and was basically told they want to demo the role and see how I do before giving me the actual title. While still having me do all the design work. Which I’ve been doing for a year….

    There’s no clear milestones from their end about what I’d need to do to move out of the demo role nor a timeline they could put on it. During our call today I am going to push for the correct title or basically threaten to walk away… it’s nerve wracking but I will leave over it.

    Wish me luck!

    1. Beebee*

      Oh yeah, I should also note admins have a very low pay ceiling compared to other roles (like $20k-$30k…) and I think part of why they won’t move me out is they know id want to be paid more. Ironically I’d actually be okay with a lower salary but not with the title….. we’ll see how it all goes

      1. MsM*

        If you think that’s the sticking point and you’ve got nothing to lose anyway, you can always tell them the salary is negotiable; the no admin title or responsibilities is not. (Although personally, at this point, I’d be so skeptical of their ability to deal with me honestly, I’d be leaning toward walking away regardless of what they came back with.) But yeah, you got this!

        1. Beebee*

          Hehe that’s the plan! I should also say it is not a $30k salary — the salary is decent it’s just $30k below the ceiling of what other roles can make.

          I plan to make it sound like oh, well I REALLY wanted more…. but I GUESS I can give up the salary if they can give me the title…. and see how it goes.

          I’m definitely tempted to walk away regardless however due to some personal issues in real life, it is a lot easier for me to stay if they give the title I want. But I’m not against leaving if it’s what I need to do to get what I need!

          1. Niblet*

            Don’t give up any salary. They need to pay you what you are worth and what comparable jobs pay. Don’t sell yourself short.

    2. Niblet*

      Let your boss know that you are declining the role since it isn’t the one you had discussed. If they do adjust the title, make sure they adjust the job description and salary. Also, start looking for new jobs. Your current employer likes to play games.

  54. Seeking Second Childhood, CTA*

    Bafflegab thread. What affront to your language have you encountered recently? Any language, since we are an international community.
    I’ll start: “role model” as a verb. (Model works as a verb, but ‘role’ makes a poor adverb.)

    1. No Tribble At All*

      Ew, role model as a verb!

      The one that always gets my goat is “grow” as a transitive verb (“Grow your business with this one weird trick!”). I think I’ve lost that battle years ago though.

      1. Mannequin*

        YOU ARE MY PEOPLE!

        I have hated this usage of “grow” since the first time I heard it and it still makes me grit my teeth!

    2. Nathalie*

      “Ask” as a noun (e.g., “Our ask for this quarter is 20% increase in headcount”). Is it that much harder to say “request”?? It’s only two syllables!

    3. Dust Bunny*

      I will never accept “guesstimate”. We have “guess” and “estimate” (which is based on guessing, anyway!)–we do not need “guesstimate”.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I am currently revising a manuscript with someone who uses the ellipsis in favor of all other punctuation marks. Anywhere one might put a comma, an em dash, an exclamation point, a parenthesis or a period — she’s gotta throw in an ellipsis. At no point in this non-fiction book is an ellipsis appropriate, ever, at all. None.

      I worried at first, because I thought it meant she had more that she wanted to add to the sentence and we needed to discuss it. Nope. She just thinks it looks artsy and sophisticated, or pithy, or something. She isn’t suffering from dementia, but it makes it sound like she is, because every paragraph looks like it trailed off and started up again midstream.

      Yesterday we were on a call and I took three — THREE — ellipses out of the SAME DAMN SENTENCE. I mentioned jokingly “Man, you sure do like those ellipses!”

      “What’s that?” she asked. And when I told her, she said (I kid you not) “Oh…do I use those a lot?”

      Yes, ma’am. You do.

      1. Minimal Pear*

        There’s a really interesting bit in “Because Internet” by Gretchen McCulloch about how older generations tend to overuse ellipses and how it seems ominous for younger people.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I’ve seen that, and this is beyond an older/younger thing. Strunk and White are rolling in their blessed graves.

    6. The Prettiest Curse*

      This is used almost exclusively in British contexts, but saying “bespoke” as a posher-sounding version of “custom” absolutely drives me up the wall. (It’s a term taken from the fashion industry – so a made-to-measure suit would be called a bespoke suit.) It’s so incredibly pretentious and, in most cases, inaccurate too. Begone, bespoke!

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        And “bespoke” has an even more specific meaning than that. Traditionally, it referred to clothing made with material the tailor kept on hand only for that one client. It was the special order of all special orders.

        1. The Prettiest Curse*

          I did not know that fact, and it makes use of the word in a business context even more pretentious and annoying!

    7. Person from the Resume*

      “Panini” in place of pandemic. Nope, that’s not what that means.

      1. ThatGirl*

        That’s a joke – I’ve also seen panorama, panda express, pandemonium … I mean, you’re allowed to be irritated by it, but nobody seriously thinks panini *means* pandemic.

        2. Raboot*

          Not the person you’re responding to but – of course it’s a joke, but I still think that it the worst. Nothing is this thread is “wrong” just things we find annoying personally.

        3. allathian*

          Yeah, and I suspect that it started as an autocorrupt, a word I find both useful and amusing to describe a failed autocorrect.

      2. Princess Xena*

        Ugh, yes. Although most of the time I see it in response to overly sensitive content filters in places that don’t want to moderate Covid rants. But still. Annoying.

    8. Purple Cat*

      Other people might consider this an afffront, but I LOVE the word “voluntold”.
      As in I was “voluntold to do this”.

      1. Minimal Pear*

        Haha yes it’s a VERY useful term for something that happens all too often!

      3. allathian*

        I really like it too!

        I dislike most business jargon, TBH, and any fad of the moment gets annoying when it’s used often enough.

    9. WellRed*

      Ever since we went remote and started using slack, several coworkers have turned PTO into a verb. As in “I will be PTOing on Thursday.”

    10. Hotdog not dog*

      Nouns are Nouns. Verbs are verbs. You may ask me to behave like an adult. Under no circumstances is adulting a reasonable ask.

      1. Kivrin*

        And adjectives are adjectives. A concept sadly unknown to the person I saw (not round here) use “thorough” as a verb. Meaning, to clean something thoroughly.

    11. Apostrophe Catastrophes*

      Apostrophes where they don’t belong, especially when used as a plural instead of a possessive: “We serve Salad’s.” Salad’s what? I used to belong to a group called Apostrophe Catastrophes, but it became a bit too mean-spirited.

    12. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      Not recent, but a business owner (as part of her pitch) once earnestly, emphatically told me that people really “want to homeownership.” I have been cringing ever since. Her PR handler was right there! I almost went crosseyed.

    13. Unum Hoc Scio*

      I’m still loathing the use of “I” as first person object instead of “me”. It’s been making me shudder for over a decade. When someone says “They gave Joe and I …” would they also say “They gave we …”?

      1. Imtheone*

        Actually, instead of “my” they say “I’s”!!!

        John and I’s daughter (as part of a more complex sentence).

        1. linger*

          But what would be your recommended form in the full sentence, if the intended referent is the daughter of both John and the speaker? The clitic possessive ‘s technically attaches to the entire preceding noun phrase, in this case the conjoined pair “[John and I]’s”, so “I’s” doesn’t have an independent existence. The inflected pronoun form does not distribute across conjoined heads in the same way, so “John and my daughter” would be incorrect for the intended meaning. Marking both heads (“John’s and my daughter”, or “my and John’s daughter”) is grammatically correct, and unambiguous, but clunky.

      2. Irish Teacher*

        I think that’s just overcorrection. People often say “me and Joe went…” and then teachers tell children, “it’s not ‘me and Joe;’ it’s ‘Joe and I.'” I suspect in a lot of those cases, the person thinks “they gave Joe and me…oh no, my teacher said not to say ‘Joe and me’ thirty five years ago,” so they automatically correct it.

    14. Irish Teacher*

      Not really an affront to my language, but just something I personally find irritating for some reason. “It impacted…” rather than “had an impact on…” like “the pandemic really impacted work culture” rather than “the pandemic had a big impact on work culture” or “that teacher really impacted my life” rather than “that teacher really had an impact on my life.”

      1. linger*

        Actually a standard meaning, though usually reserved for negative effects, cf. use of the derived adjective, as in “impacted wisdom tooth”.

  55. Exiled in TX*

    For Government people – how do you set performance standards for a manager that clearly isn’t right for the role (think https://www.askamanager.org/2019/10/im-afraid-im-going-to-get-fired-and-ive-had-this-same-bad-feedback-before.html) and needs too much handholding but isn’t egregiously terrible? This individual was hired a year before I arrived; and while they do what I tell them and has no conduct problems, there doesn’t seem to be application of what we speak about (ie, identifying actions/problems 2-3 steps ahead and potential remedies) in other products and interactions. Basically they are not ‘picking up’ on what needs to be done to be successful – which is frustrating because the area is highly process-driven and therefore fairly predictable. I can’t see initiating a PIP for being a poor fit. How do I set performance standards to say “You consistently need to do this on your own, before we meet and have the answers ready to go”?

    1. Anonymous healthcare person*

      This actually doesn’t sound like a poor fit. The last comment you made there is a measurable performance goal that is reasonable for experienced and/or higher level staff. “I need you to consistently do x job task correctly without assistance unless something unusual happens”. It may not warrant a PIP at this time but it can be coached and expected. Maybe you’ve already done that? I can’t tell from your letter. But this is not a “fit” issue as far as I can tell. Good luck!

      1. Exiled in TX*

        Thank you so much – in an ironic twist, I’m also in HC. Appreciate your input!

    2. Scott*

      “The last comment you made there is a measurable performance goal that is reasonable for experienced and/or higher level staff.” This is really perceptive and I whole-heartedly agree. Definitely something you can address on a PIP. I also suggest doing so sooner rather than later as government employment (federal in my case) requires lots of documentation of performance issues before taking more substantial action.

      1. Exiled in TX*

        Yeah, I’m not new to government but I’ve never had someone this high up need so much handholding. This is probably going to take me the rest of the time I am in this role.

        To put it another way: if I asked them to make a fruit salad, they wouldn’t hesitate including tomato. And then I tell them not to include tomato. They don’t include tomato again, but they may include eggplant.

  56. Now With Extra Macaroni*

    I don’t really have a question today; all I can say is I think I have reached maximum burnout. I show up late for work. I don’t want to be at work at all. I haven’t seen the bottom of my inbox for months. Errors are being blamed on my department out of spite whether they were caused by us or not. I go home every day exhausted, unable to bring myself to even apply anywhere else. This has to get better but I’m not taking any steps to make it better.

    Thanks for reading.

    1. ferrina*

      So many hugs!! That sucks so much.

      One thing that helped me apply when I just….couldn’t: I bought a lottery ticket every time I turned in an application. I figured one way or another, I’d eventually get lucky.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      First off, I am so sorry you’re going through this. Secondly, could you consider a short vacation? I did that when I was struggling at a former job. I took a week off. The first few days I did nothing, but after that I made myself apply for jobs. Just knowing I had three or four applications out the door made me feel so much better. I was doing something to get out! It sounds like you really need a break.

    3. cleo*

      That sounds so hard. Internet hugs if you want them.

      (If you’re open to suggestions – is there *one* thing that you could change that would make an improvement in your mood / quality of life right away?

      My therapist asked me this once, when I was really burned out. My answer was “get enough sleep” and honestly making that change helped me a lot – both because I felt better once I got more sleep and because doing something helped me feel less hopeless).

    4. Purple Cat*

      I’m trying to figure out how I posted this with a different user name.
      You are not alone.

  57. Duckles*

    I work for a very global company and have a horrible time focusing when the presenter has an accent, which is most of the time… my brain just will not process anything well, regardless of content, and when I do focus for a bit I get mentally exhausted so much faster. Everyone is fluent in English so actually understanding the speaker isn’t an issue, but I do find it more challenging to pay attention the stronger the accent is. Has anyone found ways to improve their focus in these circumstances? (I’m not intending to criticize the speakers at all, and I appreciate that presenting in your second-plus language is probably a whole lot more mentally taxing than listening to one, so I appreciate constructive suggestions only).

    1. ferrina*

      Watch shows and movies that feature an array of accents. I found that my American ears got much better when I started watching The Great British Bake-Off and British panel shows

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I second this! And turn on subtitles. Not only does it help you understand, but then you can start nitpicking the typos. Which helps with focus.

      2. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I agree, understanding accents is like any other skill, you’ll get better and more comfortable with practice.

        In addition to TV, try looking for some audiobooks where the narrator is using a non-american accent. Most library audiobook apps give you the option of changing the playback speed, so if you need to slow it down to help you understand better in the beginning that might help.

    2. Littorally*

      Is it a whole lot of different presenters with dramatically different accents, or are there a few accents that are widely represented? If only a few, I would imagine seeking out more audio content from people with those accents would help you adjust and get more accustomed to understanding them.

      1. Duckles*

        it’s a real mix— in one day I might be on calls with/ watching presentations from people in England, Brazil, Pakistan, Ireland, and Spain for example. England is easy enough but even Irish English is different enough I have to really affirmatively work to follow along sometimes.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      Can you take short breaks before and after meetings where you know you’re going to be listening to these presenters? Before, do something that will improve your focus (some jumping jacks, eating a snack, whatever works for you). After, do something to decompress a bit before you move on to your next work task. It might be easier to put the effort into focusing during the meeting if you know you’ve blocked off 10 minutes to stare at the wall immediately afterwards.

      1. Duckles*

        That’s a good idea, just acknowledging it’s more mentally taxing and taking more frequent breaks.

    4. Quandong*

      This is something you can improve by treating it like learning and practicing any new skill, but it takes time and will be mentally taxing until you reach a certain level of proficiency. Maybe think of it as learning a new language, and do lots of short bursts listening to and watching podcasts or short videos in English from all around the world.

      You might consider trying things like using a fidget toy or doodling if they help you focus more intently when listening.

      1. Quandong*

        In addition – you probably aren’t alone in this, and lots of people find it hard to maintain focus listening to people speaking in meetings, for various reasons. It would be hugely beneficial if your company could increase accessibility by getting written summaries or transcripts in advance whenever possible. I would guess that it’s unlikely the company organises sign language interpreters but do they have any measures in place for Deaf employees?

    5. allathian*

      All the ideas you’ve had so far are very good, but I wonder, are the presentations live or virtual? Many virtual platforms like Zoom and Teams have live closed captioning, so even if the system gets some words wrong, it’ll get most of it right. There’s no harm in trying, at any rate.

  58. Chaotic Neutral Diversity & Inclusion*

    (Alison, feel free to remove if too political)

    So my company has a #WomenAtCompany slack channel. It’s underused, mostly for the occasional “happy women’s history month!” post in March. Someone’s started posting celebratory facts in it ~ once a week for a D&I initiative, and it’s mostly things like “female movie start demands equal pay with male co-star!” sort of fluff.

    How bad would it be if I did a post about the recent leaked supreme court thing with links to mutual aid funds? That’d be like… inappropriate right?

    1. ferrina*

      Probably, but I also kinda love it. It’s a bad idea and I’m still cheering for it. (Warning: that might push your alignment into Chaotic Good)

      1. Justin*

        Frankly, there isn’t a real neutral on such issues anyway. Chaotic Good is where it’s at.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think this is a matter of knowing your work place and the type of place you work. Are you prepared for the person who pushes back as someone who is favor of the decision and posts with pro-life links? Can you keep your cool if that happens? I’d not do it, but that’s because I 100% couldn’t keep my cool and have a strict “at work, I have no political opinions” policy.

      1. pancakes*

        I like this answer. I’d maybe do it, but that’s me, and I don’t know your workplace. I maybe wouldn’t mention the leak at all because I don’t want to focus on that aspect, but the links sound good.

    3. Emma2*

      Do you need to reference the recent draft decision? I understand that is probably what has inspired you to think of this post, but what you are actually posting is a list of resources for women who may need assistance accessing medical care.
      I still think it is risky (also, I am not American and have never lived in a country where abortion was illegal or under serious debate, so do not fully understand the context you live in). I think, however, that you can de-politicise your post by saying “for any women struggling to access care, here are some useful resources”. You could add information about other accessible sources of other forms of healthcare for women (contraception, mammograms, Pap smears, etc).
      If someone responds to that with a political post against abortion, they will be escalating into a political debate.

    4. Carmen*

      I think the “is this too political ship has already sailed”. A women’s mere existence is already political. With that being said, go for it. At least it will be in a safe space that doesn’t have any men so it should be fine and has the potential to help link women up with resources.

  59. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    I’m in a quandary. I’m 6 months into a leadership role at a small org as a first time manager. I’ve written in previous threads about how challenging my staff are – they are outright hostile, have yelled at me, refuse to give me information I ask for, and basically are making themselves as unmanageable as possible. My boss is aware and supportive, but he’s also new and has also never experienced anything like this so he also doesn’t know how to manage them effectively.

    I’ve decided that this is not the role for me and I want to get out as soon as possible. I’ve had two strong interviews for great roles and there is a strong chance (based on the job market for my area of expertise) that I’ll get at least one offer, probably sometime in early June. I have no qualms about leaving, I am certain this is the right move for me.

    My dilemma, though, is whether I should just throw in the towel now or wait until I have an offer in hand. The situation on my team is deteriorating to the point where if I were to stay, I’d need to start the disciplinary process for at least one of my employees (and it would almost certainly have to end with their termination, which is a whole can of worms I really don’t want to open). We also are on the cusp of starting the annual planning process for next fiscal year, and I’m DREADING having to lead an offsite retreat with a group of people who actively hate me and do everything they can to undermine me at every turn.

    I’m starting to feel like I need to be honest with my boss and tell him I’ve decided to leave, but I can stay through the end of the school year (about 6 more weeks). I’m not worried about him walking me out the door immediately, and truth be told, I would rather shelve boxes at the grocery store and supplement with savings until I get another career-track job, even if these two jobs don’t work out. I know the right answer is probably to keep my mouth shut until I have an offer, but I’m just waiting for him to ask me what the hell I’m planning to do about them (answer: leave), or that my lack of management is going to begin reflecting poorly on me. Right now he considers me to be a great new hire who’s doing the best I can in a challenging environment, but sooner or later I have to start making this team work.

    What should I do? Hold tight and muddle through as best I can, or start the process of disentangling myself now? I think in my boss’s shoes I’d want to know sooner so that I could make plans and start the search process, but I’m also the breadwinner for my family and I have to protect myself above all else.

    1. Colette*

      Do you want to be a manager in the future? If so, I’d say you should start the disciplinary process for one (probably more) people. I’d also strongly suggest that you start making sure there are consequences to what they’re doing, even if the consequence is a serious conversation.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        That’s a complicated question. I do eventually want to be a manager again, but this role made me realize I am a bit over my head. I think I would have been better off finding a mid-level manager role in a larger organization rather than a senior management role in a small organization. The jobs I’m targeting now are IC but with the possibility to grow into a management/leadership role over time, which I think would be a better fit for me right now. (They also pay significantly more than my current role!) My confidence is honestly pretty shot after this experience.

        As far as starting the disciplinary process, my assessment is that I don’t have the cultural capital, management experience, or HR support to go through with what will be an incredibly painful, messy process. This culture has deep-rooted issues and for a number of reasons, this employee will be incredibly, incredibly difficult to remove or put boundaries on. Frankly, I also don’t care enough to put myself through that!

    2. ferrina*

      There’s what you should do, and there’s what you must do to preserve your mental health. Are they the same thing?

      What you technically should do: Proceed as though you are staying until you have an offer in hand.
      But you could also: Just turn in your notice because you are done.

      Take a look at your savings and figure out what’s feasible for you. If you didn’t get an offer now, would you still be willing to walk away?

      Side note: If you did want to stay, it sounds like you should be talking with your manager about serious next steps. Your team needs to see that actions have consequences. Some people will shape up once they’re on a PIP- some won’t. It’s not a fun process, but a necessary one. It’s twice as tough as a new manager and a really crappy position to walk into, but you’re still a manager and no one else is able to do this for you. Sometimes the manager’s job is to open the can of worms and figure out how to turn that into a vermiculture that bears fruit (sorry for the weird analogy, I’ve been spending a lot of time in the garden recently)
      But it is absolutely fair to say that this isn’t for you, it’s not what you thought you signed on for, and you’re going elsewhere.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        1000 upvotes for the vermiculture analogy. I also heard a great one yesterday – “don’t cut your own bangs in the heat of the moment”

        If I were to stay, I would have to fire my worst employee. She is completely toxic (and was turned down for my job because of her history of poor behavior). My boss would support me, but my assessment is that I don’t have the cultural capital, management experience, or HR expertise (our HR is…unhelpful) to go through with what will be an incredibly painful, messy process. This culture has deep-rooted issues and for a number of reasons, this employee will be incredibly, incredibly difficult to remove or put boundaries on. I did already put my other employee on a PIP and she did improve, but the kinds of things Terrible Employee are doing would be hard to quantify for a PIP and I know she would fight us tooth and nail on every word in the documentation. Frankly, I also don’t care enough to put myself through that! I did not sign up for this (which my professional leadership coach called a “Level 10 Management Challenge”) and it’s literally giving me symptoms of depression and affecting my home life and personal relationships.

        I know that I have in-demand skills and the jobs I’m in the running for would potentially pay 25%+ more than this job, for way less headache and more room for potential growth. I think I’ll try to stay the course for now but if things get bad I might have to call it.

    3. MsM*

      It sounds like you don’t need to worry about being out of work too long, so I’d lean toward “six more weeks, and I’m out, with or without a firm offer.” But regardless of how you handle the announcement, if you’re practically out the door anyway, are you able to push back on certain expectations you might not otherwise challenge? Like, do you have to have an offsite retreat just because that’s the way things have always been done?

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Huh, that’s a good question. At this point we’re two weeks away from the scheduled offsite so it’s not too late to change the plan…. I’ll have to think about that. Thanks for the suggestion!

      2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Ok, I just changed our plans! Thanks for that suggestion.

        I’m really leaning toward “6 weeks and I’m out” because once we get past this hump of the end of the school year and into the summer, I’m going to need to kick into gear on a lot of long-term projects. It would be incredibly detrimental to the organization if I start those and then leave, so ethically I feel the right thing to do is to let them know they need to find someone else to take those over. It’s just scary to think about launching myself (and my family) into the void with no guaranteed safety net.

    4. Niblet*

      Can you not invite the difficult employees to the planning offsite? Part of being a manager is making decisions about who will make useful contributions to a process, and who will not. Leave out the ones that will cause problems.

    5. MaryLoo*

      You can have rude, insubordinate direct reports whether you’re a low level manager or a high level manager. So going for a less-senior manager job won’t solve what might be a larger issue of how to manage a problem employee.

      Look at the reply that Anon For This Today wrote where she said “ I’m going to ask some diametrically opposed questions.” Those are really good things to ask yourself.

      Put the person on a PIP.

      1. Manchmal*

        I agree. What if you were able to mentally detach a bit. You know you’re leaving, so why not put this person on a PIP to see how you can do? Do it as practice! You’re out, so the outcome doesn’t matter in a way. Treat it like chess. Be super dispassionate. If you make mistakes…who cares! You’re leaving. I bet you learn something from the process.

  60. Maybe Relevant*

    Several of us were raving about the fit of the women’s shirts that Omaze used for the Samantha Bee/Planned Parenthood fundraiser. I reached out to Omaze about the source since there was no brand in the shirt and got the info below.

    Women’s v-neck shirts size S – XL: printed on tees from a company called, “Next Level”. The item code was NEXT LEVEL 1540L
    Women’s v-neck shirts size XXL – 4XL: printed on tees from a company called, “District”. The item code was DM1170L
    Unisex crewneck shirts: printed on tees from a company called, “Next Level”. The item code was NEXT LEVEL 3600

    I found a place that didn’t require me to screen print them first and ordered about 10 in several colors including multiple white ones!

  61. Sleepy cat*

    I met a colleague – let’s call her Jane – at a work event. Jane works in a different department and would like to move into my profession (there are only about four of us in this profession in my organisation). Jane is a more senior grade than me.

    When we met, I offered to have a chat with her about career options and what it takes to get into this profession. I thought I was offering to have a one-off chat. She said I’d been helpful which, great. And then she said: “We should do this again!” Which felt super awkward because I don’t want to and I don’t have time.

    I offered as a one-off favour. I’m really busy, it’s a big deal to find half an hour in my schedule, I don’t have anything more to offer beyond the advice I’ve already given and I feel if anyone is going to suggest meeting again it should be me. I was happy to help but only as a one-off.

    I said nothing in the moment when she said this, so I haven’t committed to anything. It has just really stressed me out.

    1. ferrina*

      Ugh, I’m sorry! No good deed goes unpunished, I guess.

      You should say exactly what you said here- “I’m really busy and I don’t have anything more to offer beyond the advice I’ve already”. Just “Sorry, I’m not able to do that.” Rinse and repeat as necessary. You’ve got this!

    2. Annie Moose*

      That’s a pretty common thing to say when you meet with someone, tbh. I don’t know that Jane necessarily actually meant that she was intending to plan anything, so much as she was saying she enjoyed the conversation and had a nice time talking to you!

      1. Aggresuko*

        Yeah, a lot of people are flaky on this sort of thing. Don’t worry about it unless she formally asks.

      2. Pocket Mouse*

        Yeah, if it comes up again and you feel like you need to respond in kind without committing to anything, try something like “It was great talking to you! I hope our paths cross in the future. Best of luck with your llama dyeing endeavors!”

  62. Re'lar Fela*

    I shared last Friday about my struggles with my (now former) grad school program and just want to give a bit of an update/ask another question.

    Reader’s Digest for those who didn’t see my previous post: I was in an MSW program, had a rough semester in Fall 2021, and was dismissed from the program via an academic hearing (despite having a 4.0 prior to that semester). I’ve applied for retroactive medical withdrawal from my courses that semester, which will revert my GPA back to a 4.0

    Now I have to decide what I want to do next (the case manager I’m working with seems pretty positive that the retroactive withdrawal will be approved easily). Do I appeal to the dean for re-admission or do I seek a transfer? I’m meeting with several other programs in the next couple of weeks, but the appeal of my (now former) program was the accelerated speed. I have less than a year of coursework left through that program if I am to successfully appeal. Transferring to another program will mean 3-4 more years of work. However, I’m not sure I can stomach a future with a program that is not at all trauma informed or communicative (they still haven’t notified my field placement of the academic dismissal/end of my practicum; luckily for them, I have–otherwise it would be a nightmare with insane legal and ethical implications for the program, my field supervisor, and my host agency).

    Anyway, I’m not necessarily asking what I should do. I know that’s my decision. But what things should I consider? I recognize that I am still deep in the emotions and I don’t want to make any rash decisions. But how do I balance my mental/emotional well-being against the time and money required to transfer? What questions should I ask the other programs I’m meeting with (for what it’s worth, I’ve asked about transfer credits and the most any program I’ve found will accept is six–I have 29)?

    1. Ashley*

      At some point money has to be a factor. So how much would it financially cost to stay vs transfer. And if you did transfer can you imagine spending that long in school still?
      Also I am not sure how wide of a net you have cast in looking to transfer but I would check a wider net and maybe consider online programs which can sometimes be more flexible with accepting transfer credits.

    2. MoMac*

      I’m writing this on the fly so it will be disorganized. I didn’t want to leave you hanging though. I think it really depends on your level of tolerance. They sound terrible, and the opposite of what the field of social work is about. Why are your credits not transferrable? I get that the programs are all fairly insular, mine was especially so. But your credits should be transferrable to a school in your state system at a minimum. Unless your program is poorly regarded by other schools. Can you ask the other schools which credits are transferrable, I’m guessing policy classes, and why the others are not? When you’re meeting with these other schools, bring the syllabus for the classes in question with you so that they can point out exactly what their issue is with your credits.

      Your focus should be on your field placements. That is where the bulk of your learning will take place. It is essential that you are given clinical placements, unless you are in a macro program. Do not settle for an internship that is an actual job that BSWs are hired to do. You are going to need to learn how to write a full assessment and diagnose people. If you aren’t given that opportunity and are doing case management instead then you are wasting both your time and your money. There is no reason to pay for an MSW where you are not getting the proper training because you will not have the skills to be successful in your first job. I really cannot stress this enough.

      One of my old supervises said that she learned more at her BSW program than she did at her MSW program. And I just heard from another colleague that they do not take interns or new hires from that MSW program because they are not prepared. So think about the quality of your education and the preparation to enter the field in any place that you attend. You are also going to need to pass your licensing tests and need the knowledge to do that.

      Your situation is terrible and I’m so sorry that you are going through this. I wish you all the best.

      1. Re'lar Fela*

        Thanks so much for your thoughtful response! I’m two semesters in two a job-based placement (my job is intake coordinator and case management; the practicum was on the clinical team doing counseling). My employer has assured me that they will allow me to continue my placement once I’m either back in my former program or in a new one.

        In terms of transfer credits, the programs I’ve looked at all have a maximum number of credits they will accept from incoming transfer students. I’ve circled back to a couple that have been especially communicative to seek clarification, but have not heard back yet. The program I’m in (or was in) is an online program through a university in another state. The program is pretty highly regarded, but the policies at the other programs are blanket transfer policies and not specific to my program or situation.

        I have a decade of experience in anti-trafficking, DV services, and youth services, which has taught me more than the 16 months of the MSW program I’ve completed so far. Unfortunately, to be a therapist I need the LCSW, so here we are.

        At any rate, I greatly appreciate your kind and thoughtful response. You’ve certainly provided plenty of food for thought!

    3. Niblet*

      Because of the medical issues, would it be possible to bring up ADA accommodations? Have you ever talked with disability lawyer about what the school needs to do to accommodate your medical issues, and whether the dismissal was due to a lack of accommodations?

  63. Aggresuko*

    I hit a big workaversary and while I got my office rewards from my boss (so NBD there), it wasn’t announced in the huge overall staff meeting. I feel snitty about it, but at the same time don’t want to come off as whiny and complainy to upper management for leaving me out either. Or to make them be all “Oops, we left out Aggretsuko!” in public either. I feel like the OP who was bummed out about not getting the house signs, or whatever it was.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      How often is the huge overall staff meeting? If it’s frequent enough, can you ask your manager to mention your anniversary in the next one? If it isn’t frequent enough, can you ask your boss to announce it in the next team meeting (or any smaller level staff meeting that would make sense)?

      You have every right to feel a little snitty about it and I don’t think there’s any harm in asking the above questions as long as you don’t have an outright whiny tone.

      1. Aggresuko*

        Around every 3ish months, but it’s not my manager’s to run–it’s people levels up above her. I don’t know where they get the list of who’s hit a workaversary, even, but it seems like it should have shown up by now?

  64. D. B.*

    Question about “flexible” scheduling: my current job is so chaotic, I could be working an early morning shift one day and a late night shift the next, typically with one to five days’ advance notice. (Recently it’s been mostly one day’s notice.) It’s impossible to plan my life and I hate it, plus the pay is bad. So I’m looking at other job listings.

    When the job description says “flexible schedule”, does that usually mean something like what I am currently dealing with? I don’t necessarily need to have a regular 9 to 5, but I would like to be able to know roughly when I will be working next week.

    1. Nathalie*

      When I did service jobs I’d have that “closing on Saturday, opening on Sunday” thing sprung on me a lot and it was the worst, so I very much sympathize with your situation. I don’t think companies use “flexible schedule” to describe that unless they are trying to be sneaky or are just really inept. When I see “flexible schedule” on a job listing I assume it means that the employee has some control over their hours (like adjusting to come in early/stay late for an appointment) rather than rigidly coming in at X o’clock and leaving a Y o’clock every day no matter what.

    2. ferrina*

      No, usually that doesn’t mean what you’re currently dealing with.

      “Flexible schedule” for office jobs may mean “expect a few odd hours” and/or “we’re comfortable with you working 8-4 or 10-6 or something like that; we don’t monitor what time you arrive/clock out as long as your work is getting done”. At my job it means “no one tracks when you come in/leave as long as you’re working 40 hours; also you may be asked to do the occasional 8am or 6pm meeting (since we’ve got people in an array of timezones)”

    3. Dust Bunny*

      A flexible schedule is supposed to be implemented on YOUR terms, not your employer’s.

    5. Minimal Pear*

      In my experience, a flexible schedule means the EMPLOYEE can choose some flexibility in their schedule. (For example, I come in early one day a week and leave early another! I just make it up throughout the week.)

    6. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Different companies might mean different things with that phrase. My best advice is just apply for the jobs that seem interesting to you, and when you get to the interview stage you can say “The job description mentioned flexible scheduling, how is that usually implemented in this office?” And then you can decide whether or not their answer works for what you’re looking for.

  65. JustaTech*

    Is it weird to offer to introduce a coworker to a former coworker who is now at another company where we have/are applying for jobs?
    I have a great new-ish coworker who is miserable in her position (because senior management is doing a terrible job with the whole project and yanking her chain all over the place), and I know she’d be amazing at another company, where another former coworker is now in a pretty senior position.
    The things that make it slightly weird are 1) when I applied for a position at Other Company last year the former coworker was initially helpful and then just totally ghosted on me, 2) in theory current coworker and I would be applying for the same jobs, and 3) if current coworker leaves I could get stuck with her whole job on top of mine (except that I’ve got enough seniority to say “no” and mostly make it stick).

    I still feel like introducing them is the right thing to do, and it’s a form of networking, and it probably won’t change whether or not current coworker leaves. Is there something I’m missing?
    (I’d be doing this through LinkedIn.)

    1. Purple Cat*

      I think you’ve identified the only really “bad” thing – she might get a job that you want. That’s really not a bad thing, because there’s no guarantee it would be a “you vs. her” situation. I’d go ahead and introduce them. It’s a good karma thing that will come back to you at some point.

  66. Former GM*

    I’ve been job hunting for four months now after being let go during the holidays. While I was energetic and focused initially, I am just exhausted at this point. And yes, while a pay check would be great right now – my brain is just very “meh” about it all at this point. Anyone have any tips / tricks / suggestions for a prolonged job hunt? And ways to get your brain reinvigorated?

    1. ferrina*

      What else are you doing? Any long term projects that you’re excited about?

      What is the minimum applications that you’d be comfortable sending out per week? The true minimum? Maybe 1 per day for Mon-Fri? Set a minimum that you can do given where your brain is at now (you can always do more if you get excited, and you can always adjust the minimum if your brain is up for more). Apply to the positions that you are most excited about- don’t waste your precious energy on meh jobs. Have you application time where you do what you need to do, then after application time is over, give your brain a break and do something else.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      Can you afford to take a little break from searching? Just like people need vacations from work, the same applies to prolonged job hunts in my opinion!

    3. Hen in a Windstorm*

      Are you doing the “search like it’s your job” thing? Because there’s not enough jobs to occupy you for 40 hours a week. My SO decided he is mentally in a better space for job hunting after lunch and does exercise and hobby stuff in the morning. He “logs off” at 4:30 and does chores/other stuff. So he only spends 2.5-3 hrs on job searching a day. And only applies to jobs he’s really interested in.

  67. Nacho*

    I was recently offered a promotion at work. After checking with some of the people who are already hold the position, it turns out it would be a lot of extra work on top of what I already do now, much of it off the clock and after hours. When I asked my boss about a possible raise to go along with extra responsibilities, she told me that there was none, but “the extra work would be taken into account during my yearly performance review” after I “proved myself” for about 6 months.

    I’m honestly shocked they managed to find five other people who are willing to take this job. Especially after how one of them talked to me about it.

    1. LDN Layabout*

      The only way I’d find this acceptable from a personal POV would be to use the promotion as a springboard in doing the same job elsewhere. Otherwise…why?

    2. Eff Walsingham*

      This was the situation at one of my OldJobs. I was friends with a couple of supervisors there, and when I was up for promotion they outlined the extra responsibilities and told me that the (small) bump in wages they did get did not feel like enough to assume the burden it turned out to be. For that reason, and others, I declined the promotion (gracefully, I hope!) but that means that when I moved on I was still an entry level employee. I could have taken the promotion, stayed a year, and tried to leave for a better job, but the industry is not known for fairness in those respects. So I might have moved on and found myself in a similar crappy situation that looked good on paper.

  68. CTT*

    Wearing zit patches at work (the clear ones, not ones with a design) – yea or nay?

    (A zit has made itself known today and was kicking myself for not having any of those patches at my desk and then had no idea if that would be ~professional~ or not)

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Would be A-OK where I am. I cannot imagine it wouldn’t be fine at all but the most formal offices–it’s not functionally different from a band-aid.

      1. Maggie*

        I can’t imagine it would be considered ok at most offices, not “all but the most formal”. I don’t think it’s a huge deal but its generally something you’d remove while “getting ready” so it should probably stay at home.

      2. Hedera*

        Band-aids don’t typically go on one’s face, though, and if they do you’d often get people asking what happened out of friendly curiosity. I don’t think a zit patch would be acceptable at my current job and it’s definitely not a formal workspace.

    2. Chidi has a stomach ache*

      I do this every so often! but also I’m still masking so most of the time the patches are under my mask. But I don’t worry about the time when my mask is off (eg, lunch).

      1. Aggresuko*

        Over Zoom, it may or may not be noticed. Nobody sees it if you have a mask on. That’s been my experience. I dunno about running around with one on free faced and in person, though. I’m sure someone would say something then.

    3. Eff Walsingham*

      I could see myself being the tacky coworker who said, “Oh! What did you do to your– no, I’m an idiot. Never mind.”

      People shouldn’t comment, but they might. In both cases, because it’s your face.

    4. Jen MaHRtini*

      I’ve done it, usually on my cheek or along the jawline where it’s somewhat obscured by my hair though. I think they’re actually less noticeable than a blemish especially if you’re prone to picking.

    5. Everything Bagel*

      I’m so glad to see this asked. I have never heard of these zit patches before. Just this week I had to go to work with a giant beaming red cystic thing on my face that I tried to cover with concealer. I’m going to check these out for general use. If they seem pretty low-key, I would wear it to work if it’s less noticeable than the giant red thing on my face. Thanks for the tip!

    6. Minimal Pear*

      I’ve done it, but my workplace is very chill so I don’t know how useful my input is here.

  69. Anon for this*

    I’m going to get slammed for this. But please no personal attacks. Just think about it.

    A post and comments a few days ago dealt with potential abuse of sick leave. Most of the comments indicated that no questions should ever be asked and no verification of need should ever be required. When I took a slightly opposite view, I was roundly chastised.
    During my many years of working, most in non-management positions, I took the view that sick leave was a type of insurance that my employer paid for my benefit- to be used for the purpose of moving the risk of being sick and losing income from me to the company. I don’t think I ever took a sick day if I was physically able to come to work and do my job. Absent an actual emergency, I do not believe I used sick time for medical or dental appointments. Routine appointments were treated as something I should do on my personal time, not on my employer’s time.
    The original post referred to an employee needing off because a relative was ill and needed help. I accept the idea that caring for an ill dependent is often a valid use of the employee’s sick time- but I think there should be reasonable limits. Unless an adult requires constant care and is not in a care facility, I do not understand why the employer should bear the burden. If the adult is in a care facility, unless there are extenuating circumstances, I do not see why employee sick time is appropriate to use for visiting purposes. When my spouse was hospitalized and then in a rehab center for 9 days, other than the actual surgical day, I was at work each day.
    There seems to be a growing belief that sick leave is an entitlement to miss work for reasons other than illness. When an employee is on sick leave, often others must pick up the slack. The employer is required to overstaff itself to account for this. This overstaffing affects all other employees in that it means staffing budgets must be allocated among more employees. Therefore, all salaries must take this into account.
    Sick leave has been called part of one’s compensation. Health insurance to the extent that an employer pays part of the premium, is part of compensation. However, most would chose not to have to use the health insurance unless necessary. I think sick leave should not be used unless it is necessary. And yes, I understand that in many cases it is not possible or practical to schedule routine items outside of standard working hours.
    Privacy concerns have been raised as well. I understand those. However, I think there are very few people who are not aware that sick leave is, in fact, often abused.

    1. Jay*

      I think you have a broad definition of “abused” that comes from your narrow understanding of the appropriate uses of sick time. Each place I’ve worked has had at least a guideline – if not a policy – about this. In every case, medical and dental appointments were cited as an appropriate use for sick time. Many – not all – also expressly allowed us to use sick time to care for ill family members.

      When my father had surgery and was hospitalized for 8 days, I made the three-hour round trip to see him every day and kept my usual work schedule. I was ineffective at work and nearly fell asleep behind the wheel one night coming home from the hospital. That was my wake-up call (literally) and I started taking time off when my kid or others in my family needed me.

      Even if it weren’t the right thing to do, it’s good business to invest in the well-being of your employees, and that means supporting them through difficult times. You’re making a purely economic argument with a tinge of moral judgment attached. That’s certainly your right; I think it’s short-sighted.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        Also my understanding is some states codify that sick time is for all of these purposes: medical and dental appointments, to care for ill family members.
        So it’s especially, to me, out of touch to consider those not reasonable uses.
        That said, my opinion is that good employers do not make exempt employees use sick time for an appointment here or there. My current employer is like this. Unless you need to be gone the whole day, you don’t need to take sick time. Go to the dentist, come back. It’s fine. Reasonable employers treating people reasonably.

    2. Also going anon*

      If the adult is in a care facility, unless there are extenuating circumstances, I do not see why employee sick time is appropriate to use for visiting purposes.

      Apparently I missed this discussion. I agree with you here. Using sick leave for family members should be limited to times when they *need* you there. A sick child, an adult who needs a ride or has to be watched due to anesthesia or other risks. Not to visit someone in the hospital.

      1. ferrina*

        It can depend- studies have shown that having a friend/family member on-site being a patient advocate leads to better health outcomes. If a family member is in the hospital having surgery, it can really benefit that person to have someone at the hospital waiting for them (even if they aren’t “needed” at the moment).

        Not saying you should use sick time to casually visit when other times are available, just that individual circumstances widely vary.

    3. ferrina*

      It depends on the workplace, and even sometimes on the employee.

      When I worked somewhere that had state-mandate staffing policies, sick time was a really big deal. It affected not just you and your department, but the whole business. We could only absorb a certain number of staff being out before it started to adversely affect the business. It made sense to try to reduce sick time as much as possible.

      But I’ve also had jobs where flexibility had little or no impact on the business. I was hard working, my projects got done with great results, so if I needed/wanted time for any reason, it wasn’t a hard thing for the company to give me. In that case having a strict sick time policy would have been just plain punitive.
      But this can also flex based on the employee’s performance. If a low-performing employee is frequently out due to sick time, it make sense to monitor them more closely and have some serious discussions about attendance.

    4. OyHiOh*

      My late spouse spent a rather large chunk of his professional career working for the US federal government. In his particular branch and agency, the sick leave policy allowed use of sick leave (rather than any of the, like, six other categories of leave) for actual illnesses, the employee’s medical appointments, medical appointments for dependents under age 18, and picking up an ill child from school/staying home with that child. Both employee illnesses and dependent child illnesses lasting longer than 3 days needed a doctor’s note – to clarify the anticipated length of stay at home – but otherwise were allowed, assuming you had the sick leave accrued to do so.

      Sick leave was not used/authorized for routine “care” of someone who requires constant care, although assisting such an adult with medical appointments probably would have been authorized but that wasn’t a part of our direct experience with sick leave so I won’t attempt to speak to that element.

    5. OneTwoThree*

      My original viewpoint of sick time was very similar to yours – use only when you are sick and sparingly. However, my view is changing over time. Mostly because of how my current and previous employers have outlined appropriate use for sick leave in employee handbooks. To my current employer, sick leave includes taking care of direct family members who are sick, medical appointment, etc.

    6. Doctor is In*

      As a small business owner, I agree with you. It costs the employer every time someone is out for any reason. A certain amount of people being off for reasons is inevitable, but I have to have enough people here, and just can’t afford to have too many people off too often. Hence the limit on paid time off.

      1. pancakes*

        The people who disagree with you don’t think it is cost-free for employers to be generous with sick leave. They think it is a good investment.

        What a particular employer can and cannot afford is not something anyone can effectively discuss in this format.

        1. Colette*

          I agree – but I also think sometimes it is effectively cost-free to give people sick leave. If someone is really sick, it’s better to have them go home and sleep for a couple of days than it is to have them at 50% for 2 weeks. If someone can take a day off and not have anyone do their work while they’re gone, sick time is essentially free for the employer. A sick day or 10 isn’t going to make a noticable difference in the bottom line.

          Obviously, in some jobs you’d have to hire someone else to cover, but in many jobs you don’t.

          1. pancakes*

            Yes, I think that’s true in many situations. Some of the restaurateurs interviewed in the article I linked to in another thread talked about that.

    7. Colette*

      I agree with part of what you’ve said, and disagree with other parts. Doctor and dentist appointments are a valid use of sick time, IMO. And if you’re sick but could still make it in to work, you should stay home if there’s any chance you would be contagious, or if you would recover faster at home.

      If a family member is sick but can care for themselves, that’s not a valid use – but something like “my spouse is having surgery” would also be a valid use of leave.

      If someone is in the hospital for a short-term issue, it might be necessary to be there. (E.g. you can’t leave your child in the ER until their arm is x-rayed and casted; if your spouse has a heart attack, you need to be there while they figure out what’s going on.)

      If someone is in a care facility for months/years, I agree that visiting them is not sick time.

    8. JustaTech*

      I’m going to focus specifically on this statement ” I don’t think I ever took a sick day if I was physically able to come to work and do my job. ”

      I understand why people do this: a strong work ethic is deeply ingrained into many people from childhood, that if you possibly can work, you must work.
      But may I offer a different perspective?
      If I go into the office while I have, say, a bad cold, yes I might get my work done, but if I infect two of my coworkers and they become too sick to work, then my *not* taking a sick day has cost the company 2 sick days from other people getting sick.

      In my city, a few years ago, sick time became required for all employers (maybe down to 5 employees), even for part-time workers, and this was *specifically* because employees at food service establishments were coming in to work sick (in violation of the health code) because they did not have sick time, meaning that there was a real risk to the public of being exposed to food-borne illnesses because the people making the food felt that they had no choice but to work. And while some people complained that this would destroy small businesses, it didn’t. I don’t know how much it cut down on outbreaks of food-borne illnesses (I don’t have access to that data), but I think we can all agree that it is better for everyone for Julie the sandwich gal to not be making your hogie when she’s been throwing up all night.

      Here’s another way where someone coming into the office sick was detrimental to the productivity of the office. My coworker got desperately ill over the winter holiday (like, hospitalized sick), and even when he came back he sounded horrible, with a wet, racking cough that went on all day long. It was *incredibly* distracting, and several immunocompromised coworkers spent a lot of time avoiding him or cleaning up the surfaces he’d touched for fear that he was still contagious. Now, no one ended up losing a whole day to his coughing, but over the course of the week it took for him to finish recovering I would say that everyone on the floor lost at least half an hour a day to being distracted by the noise. That right there would have been worth him staying home (or better, working from home) for another day or two.

      Staying home while sick both allows you to recover faster and prevents you from infecting your coworkers, preventing lost productivity.

      1. pancakes*

        I don’t think of that as a “strong work ethic” because people who are ill, in my line of work at least, typically don’t do great work. They’re unfocused and their thoughts are hazy. I think of it as deep-seated faith in presenteeism. I also think it’s incredibly self-regarding to expose other people at work to a contagious illness in order to maintain a self-cherishing idea of one’s own work ethic or morals or whatever it is that encourages people to think about illness this way.

      2. Dinwar*

        To give another example: I came in to work sick. At the time my work was fairly physically demanding (hand augering through hard compacted clay in a forest). I stopped when I realized that I was going to get hurt–not “could”, but WOULD. My boss at the time kicked me off the site and refused to allow me on for 36 hours. I was allowed on after that on the grounds that under no circumstances was I to do physical labor–I had a meeting I couldn’t put off, then I was to go back to the hotel.

        If I had gotten hurt–strained muscle (common injury with hand augering), car accident, poked in the eye by a tree branch (I know a guy who lost an eye that way–got infected and they had to remove it), anything–it’s an OSHA recordable. It happened on the job, so it’s work-related, so it counts against our metrics. That could cost us future work, or even the ability to bid on certain contracts.

        Yes, ideally humanitarian reasons would convince any boss to let sick workers stay home–especially if they can still be productive, meaning the only loss is presence in the office. But financial arguments tend to be more convincing.

        1. pancakes*

          I don’t think those reasons (in your last paragraph) are necessarily all that far apart. I mean, it isn’t anti-humanitarian to say that sickness and injury are expensive. They are expensive for workers and for employers. Lost productivity is a cost, and so is being miserably sick at work, or trying to power through an injury without enough recuperation so that you can keep earning income. It isn’t anti-humanitarian to talk about how this system works.

    9. Hiring Mgr*

      IMO the main problem is there’s so little time off of any kind available (at least in most US companies) that it seems petty to begrudge someone just trying to deal with life a few days where they my not be “sick” according to whatever definition.

      These things happen far less frequently in companies that offer generous PTO

    10. Decidedly Me*

      I’ve always thought of sick leave as for use when I’m personally sick. I think part of why it’s been used for so many different things is due to limited vacation days that many companies give, though. Why use a vacation day when there are sick days available and your need for the day off can by some measure be related to the term sick leave?

      However, I think the way I’ve thought about sick leave personally is wrong. My state has rules for how paid sick leave can be used. In brief:
      1. mental/physical illness, including getting a diagnosis for or preventative care
      2. family members that need care for the same as #1
      3. workplace/child’s school/child’s day care closing due to a health order
      4. leave related to domestic violence

      1. pancakes*

        Yes, to my knowledge all states have rules on this, and of course we have the FMLA as well. They’re not suddenly up for grabs because of Roe being overturned. There are also generally no prizes given out for people who could take time off to care for a dependent choosing to work full-time instead.

    11. Mannequin*

      Is it ‘abusing’ sick leave when my husband takes time off to drive me to Dr. appointments? I’m disabled, have chronic illness, and don’t currently drive, and it’s not possible for me to make appointments outside of his work hours.

      (His work thinks it’s fine, just wondering what YOU think)

      1. Anon for this*

        No- I would not think that is abuse. That is actual care that is needed for someone who cannot provide it themselves.

    12. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      “I do not understand why the employer should bear the burden”

      Because employers employ humans and they sometimes have needs outside of work. It’s that simple.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Nod. It’s a human need to connect with your dying relative, to have that weird burning pain checked out, to not cough on Susie whose daughter has lupus..

    13. Alice*

      I’m going to push back a little about the idea that a set “staffing budget” has to be allocated among employees. I would think that employers set wages based on market rates for the number of employees they need in the roles they need. In your post, it sounds like an employer is saying “I’m going to spend *X amount of money* on staffing” — maybe an absolute figure, or a percentage of profits or a percentage of revenue, but in any case an amount that’s determined by something other than market rates. Does that work in the long term?

      1. Anon for this*

        It works both ways– sometimes there is a budget for line item- staff. Sometimes wages are set based on market rates- but the number of staff can be limited by the effect on the total budget of the company. Sometimes a company cannot afford to hire additional staff even if needed- maybe because they are overstaffed to cover employee’s being out.

        1. Alice*

          I get that the staffing budget is limited by the total budget of the company. But if the company is paying under market rates to enough people, or is getting by with insufficient staff who are paid under market — it sounds like it’s a business model that doesn’t work. Either way the employees are going to want to leave (to get paid market rates or to work in a fully-staffed environment), and it’s the best employees who will find it the easiest to get new jobs. Then you’re left with the worst staff and productivity-per-worker goes down.

          1. pancakes*

            Yes. A business that can’t afford to operate in a way that is not shambolic or exploitative isn’t necessarily one that should endure. The simple fact that there is still a market for its goods or services doesn’t mean the company is well-positioned to serve it. This is why businesses make business plans, and why the projections in those plans should be realistic. If they don’t have the know-how to do that planning, they need to hire someone who does.

            Maybe that seems too simple, but in my life that has worked. In my mid-twenties, two coworkers and I were able to get funding to purchase the company we worked at when our boss, the sole proprietor, died unexpectedly. The business was started in the mid-1970s and is still in operation, though I sold my share years ago. We maybe wouldn’t be able to get funding in this environment, since it’s not the 90s dot com boom, but we all had livable salaries and fully paid health insurance, and so did the rest of our employees, before and after we took over. We weren’t particularly smart 20-somethings, but we were realistic about that and hired people with the experience we needed.

    14. -ing!*

      You are absolutely entitled to your opinion and I don’t even disagree with you on all issues, but one of the things I’m really hoping will come out of the pandemic is a change to the attitude that ‘because you can physically go into work, you should’. Even if you’re coughing your (generic you) cold virus like a fountain, you’re still capable of getting to your desk, so that’s where you’ll be! Everyone else will of course catch your cold, further reducing capacity, but at least you didn’t miss that weekly meeting!

      If your company includes medical appointments as an appropriate use of sick leave, then it’s a reasonable use of the policy. I’d also not consider it over staffing to account for staff absences – just basic logic stemming from the employment of imperfect humans. Lean staffing is popular because it’s cheap, but if those savings actually land in staff pockets, I will be very surprised.

    15. Temperance*

      Your comment is giving me similar vibes to the letter writer from a while back who used to refuse to eat pizza at work lunches and would lug heavy equipment on the bus rather than expense a cab.

    16. Alex*

      My employer specifically states that sick time is for the employee’s illness and medical appointments, even routine ones, as well as caring for sick family members or needing to take them to appointments.

    17. Manchmal*

      My response to this post is less about the specifics of sick leave, but more about the general perspective. As a entry-level, non-management worker, it’s really not in your best interest to be looking out for the company at the expense of yourself. Because that company, 100%, is not thinking about you in the same way. Generally speaking, they simply seek to extract productive labor out of you as cheaply as they can. If they don’t need you anymore they will lay you off. If they need less of your labor they will cut your hours. If they can shift the cost of your benefits to you, they will try. Your employer is not your family nor your friend. You don’t need to look out for their interests, they do it for themselves just fine!

  70. Eff Walsingham*

    Here’s a new one for me. I’d love some feedback on whether this is a new norm I should think about adapting to, or just rude.

    Last week I scheduled an appointment with a vendor for “Thursday at noon”. We are seeking a quote, but he suggested the time. So I planned my day accordingly.

    At 11:25 I receive the following text:
    “Hello,
    Just wanted to give you a heads up. I will be at the site around 1pm. Will that work for you? Please advise accordingly.
    (namesig)”

    Now, if I had set up an appointment time and needed to reschedule, I’d go with “Hi, I’m sorry but I am running later than planned. I can reschedule for 1pm, unless you’re unavailable?” sort of thing. An apology, and something with the word ‘reschedule’. To show that I’m aware that the other person’s time is of value. Am I just old fashioned?

    I’m inclined to think he may be an outlier, because he texted at 12:40 to say he’d arrived but I shouldn’t rush(!) Which I wasn’t thinking of doing. I called him to say that I was eating lunch (I wasn’t, but it’s none of his business, and a thing someone might be doing if you reschedule a midday meeting) but I’d meet him at 1pm. He said “no problem, take your time” and then rang back at 12:55. I didn’t pick up.

    But seriously, is this a thing? Rescheduling without saying “rescheduling”? As if I’ll feel less jerked around if he doesn’t apologize for the inconvenience?

    1. Dust Bunny*

      I would 100% have apologized–profusely–for this, especially on such short notice. If the site was remote for both of you you could have been well on your way there by the time he sent the message and he would have wasted an hour of your time.

      1. ferrina*

        Agree. And you’d be well within reason to say “Sorry, 1pm doesn’t work for me. We’ll need to reschedule.”

        1. Eff Walsingham*

          I considered it, but I didn’t want to risk playing this game two days in a row. I imagine he probably gets accommodated a lot by people figuring, Let’s just get it over with.

      2. Eff Walsingham*

        I work from home, and he knows that. I think that some people still don’t get that working from home is work, that there are meetings and due dates and so on. I’m also the president of my strata council, so by now I’m pretty much hiding from the other owners because they act like I’m on an endless holiday and completely free to help them whatever, whenever. I’ve only been doing this since January, so I’m still struggling to set realistic boundaries and expectations.

        1. Dinwar*

          A coworker of mine had that issue when she went full-time WFH. Her solution was to schedule time when she was 100% unavailable–her laptop wasn’t connected to a network, her work phone was off, her door was locked. By “scheduled” I mean that she worked with our manager to put this together, and let everyone she routinely works with know that for whatever length of time (usually 2-3 days) she was unreachable. It really helped, and drove home the fact that the W in WFH is valid.

    2. Dinwar*

      Depends on the industry. The nature of some industries is such that you have to be loose with your schedule. Construction is like that–access issues, equipment breakdowns, random client “I need you to drop everything and do this” demands, and the like play merry havoc with strict, structured plans. And when you have a dozen (or more) contractors in a single jobsite, things get complicated. Plus the attitude is very….I don’t want to say “opportunistic”, but seize the moment. I’ve done a lot of site walks where two of the people stayed behind after the site walk because the two companies had another job in another state, and this was the first chance they’d had to sit down and discuss it.

      I think it’s a difference in how we conceptualize scheduling. I schedule in days and weeks, not hours; for finer-scale stuff I have priorities, but generally not a lot of rigid scheduling. My wife is the opposite–she has every day scheduled down to 10 minute increments. I’ve heard it termed the Maker Schedule vs Manager Schedule.

      1. Eff Walsingham*

        Interesting. Maybe we just experienced an industry clash. He is a man who visits sites, and I am performing a desk job AT a site. I mean, I can completely see that he’s at the mercy of traffic, which we have lots of around here, although it wasn’t rush hour. I just… no, he’s probably on tradesman time.

    3. RagingADHD*

      What makes you think it is a “new norm?” Has it happened multiple times with multiple people that you didn’t mention?

      1. Eff Walsingham*

        I’ve recently transitioned back to a role I’d last held years ago, so a certain amount of adjustment of expectations has been required. That and… um, a lot of things have changed in the last couple of years!

    4. the cat's ass*

      Nope, that’s annoying. They need to reschedule and then show up at the scheduled time.

    1. pancakes*

      Oh my. I cannot at all relate to wanting to have something like that done on a conference room table at work!

      1. D. B.*

        At first I also assumed it was done on the regular conference table, but the article actually says they had two tables in the room, a massage table and a conference table.

        If anything, that’s even weirder. Do they keep a massage table in the conference room just for this purpose?

        People can be extremely strange.

        1. pancakes*

          Idk, but this arrangement seems like the opposite of relaxing. At least she wasn’t making everyone listen to plink-plonky spa music, I suppose.

    2. Elle*

      I wonder what else she’s done at work. She clearly has terrible judgement and a weird relationship with her staff.

  72. matcha123*

    I posted one question, but want to keep this one separate.
    How do other racial minorities deal with colleagues or supervisors who try to downplay your abilities? Or who try to paint you as a troublemaker/incompetent?

    I can recognize the patterns, but I find it difficult to implement strategies to counter the toxic statements.
    It’s especially hard when they come immediately after starting a new job and from people who have been there longer and thus more established.
    I don’t work in a country with strong anti-discrimination or harassment laws. But, I have experienced the same in the US, along with friends and family who are racial minorities.

    Quitting every time someone does something shady isn’t a viable option, either…

  73. Snark*

    My boss is moving to Ohio and I’ve been tapped to take his spot. This is kind of complicated for me, because I really quite like my job as it stands and my three environmental programs are a great fit for my background. I like conservation, I don’t love compliance, and I’d be doing more of the latter and less of the former.

    But. $9-11k raise? Well, yes please. And I’m a pretty good boss.

    There’s a also a little trepidation. I have ADHD. I am basically a walking list of coping strategies, so I’m pretty functional and successful. But I also sometimes don’t trust myself not to fuck it all up, and I’d be doing a lot more boring admin stuff, compliance work, and the like. Or is that just impostor syndrome? My boss tapped me for a reason, right?

    Fun times in my brain.

    1. ferrina*

      I’m right there with you! I’m extremely high functioning ADHD. My functioning is….fascinating. I’m extremely good at complex work other people find overwhelming (as other people are tapping out, I’m just getting warmed up), but I’m also prone to walking out of my house without my shoes. I’ve also found that what I sometimes see as “barely coping” is actually “really incredible.” I think of myself as terribly disorganized, yet repeatedly have had coworkers ask me to share what my secret is and how I stay so organized (I usually say, “I can show you what I do, but this is deeply unique to me and I tend to switch systems every 3-6 months. That’s just how my brain works. This definitely isn’t the right way for everyone, but it’s the right way for me”)

      Trust what you’ve done so far. Look at your successes and your struggles. Expect that to continue. Figure out what you can delegate (I delegated some repetitive detailed documentation to a staff member who loved it- it worked out much better for both of us). You’ve got this!

    2. Time's Thief*

      Right there with you with being a semi-mobile collection of ADHD coping strategies!

      Would you like the extra money more than you would dislike the changes in your job? Would you enjoy getting to manage others or would you come to hate that they get to do the fun stuff while you’re doing paperwork? Do you think you’ll be able to automate and streamline some of the admin and other paperwork enough to not make your brain rebel or will that be your life? Is there another direction you can take that includes a raise but not trading active programs for paperwork?

      Congrats, by the way, on rocking your job so that you’re in a position to ask these questions!

  74. G*

    Ideas for easy bachelor degree programs in the US?

    I’m a mid 50’s director level in F500 company. I’ve been able to advance my career on the basis of my work/reputation but I’m finding jobs I’m interested in require a bachelors degree. I have a college diploma from community college in Canada related to my industry (3 year program). I’m interested in doing the absolute minimum as a box checking exercise.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I needed a specific bachelor degree (in HIM) to sit a specific certification exam (because a different bachelor degree, two masters and 15 years work experience in the field didn’t cut it), so I went with WGU. (My husband also got a bachelor degree in business administration from them, as a box-checking exercise, and his experience paralleled mine.)

      Pros: it’s designed for four classes per six-month term, but it’s self-paced and flat-fee tuition, so if you can slam out five, six, eight, whatever, you can finish faster. I did 8 classes a term and finished in 3 terms instead of the six they expected.

      Cons: They don’t actually “teach” you pretty much anything, because it’s all self paced. You teach yourself and if you have questions, you reach out to the “instructor” who may or may not have the foggiest idea what you’re talking about because they didn’t design the class, pick the textbooks, write the test/assignments, or do the grading. I got through my HIM degree based almost entirely on my 15 years of HIM experience, not the teaching materials, and I mostly taught my husband his coursework (one of my masters is an MBA) so pick a degree in an area you’re reasonably familiar with, because the actual academic support will be lacking.

      WGU is definitely, in general, a box-checking program, and while it’s a far sight better than University of Phoenix or whatnot, it’s also absolutely not a rigorous academic exercise. So if literally all you want is to say I have a bachelor degree in blah, here’s your go, but if you’re going to be in a position where anyone is judging you on the quality of your academic credentials, maybe not so much.

      1. Dragon*

        During my part-time evening paralegal certificate program, I had a classmate who was going for the school’s paralegal bachelor’s degree.

        She was already a seasoned paralegal who’d advanced as far as she could without a college degree. Even now, a degree is often an arbitrary answer to the question “what is a paralegal?”

        My classmate acknowledged she was doing only the minimum to pass, since she only wanted the piece of paper. I always wondered, what if someone asked to see her transcript.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I think easy is going to be what’s easy for you specifically. Is there something you enjoy that you’ve always wanted to study more? This could be the opportunity for that. If you want to get something at least related to your job, then I’m sure you know the kind of programs that you could spin in an interview.

      I’m also curious if that requirement is always hard and fast in the roles you’re applying for. You have a diploma, and even without it, enough experience to be equal to a bachelors at this point. If your resume crossed my desk and I saw those things, you’d meet that requirement for me. I could see things like certifications being needed at this point in your career to meet requirements. But a bachelor’s at this point? You’re qualified. So if you’re just not applying when you see that, I really encourage you to go for it. If you’re applying and know for sure that’s why you’re being excluded….that’s messed up.

    3. Lady_Lessa*

      I would suggest some of the softer sciences, such as psychology (instead of chemistry or physics) or an education degree.

    4. LDN Layabout*

      In your position, would an MBA make more sense? They’re shorter and often designed to be done by people who are working. The degree jobs are requiring doesn’t need to be a bachelors degree and your experience will certainly qualify you for an MBA.

    5. Person from the Resume*

      Find an online program that requires a minimum of effort. Perhaps they advertise for professional students.

      Check to see if there’s any kind of final graduation project, capstone and skip those that have an arduous one. Look for what is expected of you.

      Example … I found my program a bit of a disappoint … we purchased text books, had reading requirements, but the professor never taught. No video classes. Maybe they posted a text summary or something. We were required to post something about the reading in a text group and respond to at least 2 classmates posts per week. Nearly all classes required several reports instead of tests (I assume because it would have been very hard to ensure students didn’t cheat). The group projects, though, were something of a nightmare.

      This was over 10 years ago so technology has improved and I bet the program is at least somewhat transformed.

      Look up how the programs describe their teaching and find the one that sounds easiest for you.

      1. pancakes*

        Looking for a specifically low-effort program is bound to result in precisely that disappointment, no? You and G are talking about education programs designed to appeal to people who don’t find the idea of education interesting. Of course the professors aren’t going to be particularly engaging, and the fellow students aren’t going to be enthusiastic about group projects, because they’re just there for a box-ticking exercise as well.

        The fact that your employer isn’t discerning about where your higher education comes from doesn’t oblige you to get a higher education you’re indifferent about. I know people differ on this, but I have a hard time seeming the appeal. For me it feels a lot more tedious to get through a task I’m not interested in or engaged with at all vs. one I am interested in, even if the latter requires more effort.

    6. alt ac*

      You might look into either a bachelor of applied arts and sciences or a general studies degree. These will give you a lot of flexibility in terms of fields of study, and some BAAS degrees also offer credit for work experience.

  75. Pregnant New employee*

    Hi hive mind! I am a month into a fixed term role which may or may not be able to get extended into next year (it finishes up at the end of the academic year in mid December – higher ed).
    However I am now in my second trimester of pregnancy and would like to tell my boss I’m pregnant. How do you go about having this convo? Should it be with HR instead? What do you say?

    Any advice welcomed!

    1. ferrina*

      If your boss is any good, then talk to your boss first. Schedule a meeting, then just tell them! Schedule a second meeting with HR (to take place after you talk to your boss) to talk about what benefits you can access and how to go about that.

      Red flags to look out for- your boss telling you not to tell anyone; your boss taking work away from you long before you’re due.

      Congrats!

  76. GelieCoi*

    I have an employee that has strong opinions on everything. What phrases do people use to say I hear you without committing?

    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      “What an interesting take on that.”
      “Well you’ve clearly thought about that”
      “Hmmm”

    5. RagingADHD*

      Duly noted.

      Interesting.

      That’s one way of looking at it.

      Huh, you think?

      It seems like you have strong feelings about that.

      You seem to have thought about that a lot.

      I hadn’t heard it put that way before (or Hm, I have heard some people feel that way about it).

      I’ll take that under advisement.

    6. Prospect Gone Bad*

      You got some good answers already, but can I ask, why not actually discuss some of these? Such as “we don’t want to use JPM Morgan, we’re using Goldman, because of these reasons from the last time we had a similar contact to find a supplier for,” instead of using a short phrase they will quickly see through

      1. GelieFish*

        For big things yes, but sometimes it is small, like how someone titled something on the website that only loosely is tied to her job.

    7. Alexis Rosay*

      Agreed with the above suggestions for meetings where you need to move on quickly.

      In a 1:1, you could say, “Thanks for sharing that. I’ve heard that you believe X. I have to take many factors into account when making my decision, but it’s good to know where you stand.” I that kind of framing makes people feel heard without committing to anything.

  77. Why are immigration / passport offices in the whole world short-staffed?*

    Hi, does anybody work in immigration / passport offices around the world, and can tell me what on earth is going on with extreme short staffing? Between my friends and I, we are finding every immigration / passport office (US, UK, several other European and Asian countries) are backlogged like never before – offices have reduced hours to half previous times, they have stopped responding to correspondence, or wait-times have gone through the roof. To give an example, the current greencard renewal time is almost 12 months, but you can’t apply for renewal more than 6 months before your card expires. Yes, I get covid / pandemic, but we are in the third year. What’s going on? Was this “industry” affected by the mass resignation? I thought government jobs like these were more immune, am I wrong?

    1. Kiwiapple*

      Well in some countries (NZ/Aus for eg) the borders were closed and so I think many people thought what was the point in renewing a passport when you can’t use it? And now the borders are pretty much open, people want to renew it and so ..backlog.

      Could also be that during the quieter time some staff left and weren’t replaced (because not enough work) or have been moved to other depts in govt that needed help eg health.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      It is looney tunes. Wait times with IRCC (Canada) are months, if not years, beyond what they should be. And they announced just this week that they are backlogged with 2 million applications of all kinds (link in reply). My Canadian immigration clients can’t plan their jobs or lives, never mind for their children.

      I think the government sent the employees home at the beginning of the pandemic shutdowns and never implemented a policy for the officers and functionaries to move the paperwork along. I mean, offices everywhere else have issued computers and phones and other equipment so that people would work remote or hybrid. But with IRCC in particular it seems to have been one gigantic shrug. It’s shameful, it really is.

    3. matcha123*

      I don’t work in such an office, but my guess is that a lot of countries (like Japan where I work) have created very specific and complicated guidelines to deal with Covid.
      Government offices also employ a lot of non-permanent staff.

      In some cases, visa applications that were started had to be stopped due to nth waves, and are now being re-processed. People that hadn’t renewed their passports due to covid, now want to travel, etc.

    4. LDN Layabout*

      A lot of the work in these offices was/is paper-based, you’re also talking about government vs. public sector funding, so the equipment people are using probably wasn’t always suitable for use at home (e.g. desktops vs. laptops). In some of those offices, people will have been seconded to more important tasks during the pandemic.

      Add in people not renewing who are now renewing and a slew of other issues, of course they’re struggling.

      1. Colette*

        And it’s possible the gateways (to connect to the internal network from home) weren’t set up with the expectation that everyone would be trying to connect at once.

    5. GelieFish*

      In the US, covid restrictions shut them down for a significant time and even when they started back some offices couldn’t maintain the distance requirements, so that limited them. Their backlog was/is huge. And like all government agencies the work load under normal circumstances usually is more than staffing.

      1. the cat's ass*

        My kid’s passport expired during the pandemic. We went to our local Giant University that has a linked renewal service and asked for the app to be expedited (4-6 weeks) and it arrived at just under 3 weeks.

  78. drtheliz*

    How much do I owe my former employer in terms of being professional/not bad-mouthing them?

    I had a two year contract, good reviews, a few hiccups but they’re treated as isolated incidents, one year in I fall pregnant, mat leave is treated as an enormous inconvenience by my boss, I take about 1/4 of what I could including working a month longer than I otherwise would have to attend a major meeting, two and a bit months after I give birth I am told my contract won’t be renewed (giving me the legal minimum notice) and given BS non-reasons for it, mostly lack of funds.

    This month I’ve seen my old job advertised, making it look more than ever like either a. my ex-boss had serious problems with me she never raised or b. this was a case of barely-legal maternity discrimination (or c. both).

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Are candidates coming to you asking about what the workplace is like?

      1. drtheliz*

        No, and they’re not likely to, but I work in a fairly interconnected field and I’m being asked “so why did you leave your last job?” when I apply for things, and “well my old boss was an ass” reflects better on me than “bs non-reasons, contract not renewed”… unless, of course, saying so makes me “unprofessional”. Can’t win…

    2. ferrina*

      You owe nothing to them, but you owe everything to you.

      Share information as you please. Share on Glassdoor if you feel comfortable doing so, but expect to burn your reference at that company. Get emotional with your friends, but not in an interview or with coworkers- this is something that you deserve to get angry about, but that anger will reflect poorly on you in a professional setting. I had a coworker that sued her former employer for pregnancy discrimination- she’d casually recite the facts when it was relevant, but wouldn’t bring it up otherwise. I deeply respected her professionalism around it. I can’t say everyone took it well- some folks saw this as her being “mean to the company”, but they were generally unreasonable people in other regards.

      Can you talk to a lawyer? I’m not sure that this case falls on the right side of legal, and recommend a legal opinion.

      1. drtheliz*

        I’m sure it was legal, I have a friend whose job is representing employee interests at another org and she’d have said different things if I was likely to have a case – as far as I know, in Germany you don’t need a reason to not renew a fixed term contract, and “we like employee turnover” is definitely kosher so

    3. RagingADHD*

      Who would you be badmouthing them to?

      Not badmouthing your ex-employer in an interview, for example, has nothing to do with what you “owe” them. It is to avoid the way it makes YOU look. You should avoid saying anything unsubstantiated that makes you look like a malcontent, a liability, or someone who can’t take feedback.

      If you want to give them a bad review, that’s what review sites are for.

      1. drtheliz*

        Interviews, and a not-insubstantial (albeit petty) desire to “drop her in it” with people she still has to work with at other orgs. I’m going to have several opportunities to network with them in the coming months (follow-up on a project I had there).

        1. RagingADHD*

          Don’t bring it up out of the blue with contacts, because in an interconnected industry that is likely to blow back on you as having an axe to grind.

          In interviews, you can say “Well, to be frank I’m not entirely sure. I was blindsided with the news that my contract was not going to be renewed, even though I had not been informed of any issues with my performance. I’d hate to think my pregnancy and maternity leave had anything to do with it, especially since I cut my leave short to make sure I was present when needed. But, well…”

          And leave it there. Just make sure you don’t sound angry or bitter. You’re going for an “I’m not mad, I’m just so very disappointed in them” vibe.

          1. RagingADHD*

            And if a contact asks you about the situation/why you left/what you think of the employer, you can respond the same way. Just don’t go around announcing it, because that’s going to make you look disgruntled and unreliable.

  79. Profe*

    One of my high school students was just telling me about her new food service job where she’s 3 shifts in and already being harassed/hazed by the coworker in charge of training her. He has flirted with her (he’s much older), thrown food at her or spilled food on her more than once and takes a “trainers cut” of her tips. She doesn’t want to bring any of it up with her manager because she “doesn’t want to cause drama” and he has apparently worked there several years and “is just like that” and “has gotten other girls fired for causing drama”. I tried to explain that in a workplace it’s not “drama”, it’s inappropriate behavior and harassment and that she shouldn’t tolerate it and that leaving the job is an option if management won’t act. She’s a fairly quiet, timid girl. I hate the situation for her. I know there’s nothing I can do to intervene directly and normally it’s not good for parents to get involved in there childrens jobs but would this be a situation where I should encourage her to ask her mom to intervene or something? Any ideas?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Offer to the student to talk to the student’s mom with her or for her as a starting point. Gently encourage the student to talk to her manager and to her parents. Point out that everything food is hiring right now, she could easily get another job.

      Can you go to the store while she’s working and witness and report any of the behavior to the manager and franchise?

    2. Here we go again*

      Please speak up, tell her to call a corporate whistleblower line if available, he’s stealing and harassing her. She’s so young that even if she walks out (especially for harassment) that it won’t effect her long term employment prospects. Since she’s a minor and he gets physical she may be even able to press criminal charges. This is serious, so many teenage girls are taken advantage of in the workplace.
      There are so many food service jobs out there that she doesn’t have to take that crap from that loser. She could have another job with in 15 minutes now.

    3. Time's Thief*

      Just a thought – we spend so much time telling kids not to quit that it can be really hard for young adults to realize they CAN walk away from a job. If there’s any way you can let her know that it’s totally fine for her to just (as the teens may or may not say) nope out and move on then that could help her feel like she has options. She probably feels powerless and trapped and anything you can do to help her realize how much power she does have could help. That, along with removing the shame from “quitting.”

      And thanks for being there for her. I bet a lot of us have similar first job experiences (though not this awful) and having an adult in the background in a support role can be the difference between getting trapped in a terrible job and getting out.

      1. Here we go again*

        +100 sometimes the stress and anxiety a job can cause isn’t worth the paycheck. A lot of young people are used to school and the compulsory aspect to it. Work is an arrangement that you can walk away from, if you’re not being treated fairly.

    4. Temperance*

      She should talk to her manager. Encourage her to do so, and that it’s not “drama”, she’s being perved on by an adult man.

    5. Aggresuko*

      It sounds like this guy HAS been brought up at the job and those who complain get fired.

      This is probably a situation where it’s better to quit than to try to fix the missing stair that nobody wants to fix. I hate to say that, but…

      1. Hen in a Windstorm*

        Unreliable narrator. The perv is the one telling her “not to tell anyone”, they won’t believe you, you’ll get in trouble. Typical abuser.

  80. Justin*

    A good issue to have, but: how do you exorcise demons from bad past jobs and bosses? I’ve really enjoyed my new job these past two weeks (I should write in to Friday Good News), and though it’s definitely a lot of work, they are really invested in treating us well, and on top of all that, as a Black employee with a disability, they are very affirming (I told them during the interviews, though I didn’t specify what it was), which is probably not unrelated to the leadership being mostly Black, which is a first for me.

    I had a meeting with my boss and I still went in expecting the excoriation I sometimes got from my previous bosses for no reason. They’re not micromanaging my time (it’s busy, but if I plop a “do not disturb” on my calendar to get something done, they won’t bother me without specifically asking first). And the office requirements are zero even though I go in twice a week because I like to get out of the house.

    But how do I get the bad vibes to leave me? How long does it take, for those who have moved into better positions? I am hoping it’s just going to slowly fade. But if there’s anything I can do to fight off the anxiety of the phantom bad boss, would appreciate any responses.

  81. van wilder*

    This happened at my previous job (I very recently started a new one, which deserves to be submitted to Friday Good News!), and I’m curious how y’all would have handled this situation. My last job required, among other classes, CPR certification. This was done on-site during my working hours, but by a third party brought in specifically to lead this training. The CPR instructor almost seemed to be going out of his way to make some folks in the class uncomfortable. A class that was allotted one hour took almost three, mostly due to the fact that the instructor spend the majority of it sharing way too many details about his recent divorce, his jealousy that his father was dating a much younger woman, arguments he has with his daughter, his opinions on gun laws, and firearm recommendations to those of us in the class with what he deemed “small hands”. He also singled out me and one other participant, as we were much younger than everyone else in the room, and made several very gendered comments about our bodies and the possibility for pregnancy (the other participant was a mid-20s woman, I am late 20s and genderfluid, but AFAB and most folks on first meeting assume I’m a woman). It was rough. What do you do in a situation like this? How do you handle being made uncomfortable at work by someone who isn’t technically a co-worker?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      “I’m sorry I don’t see how that’s relevant”
      “I have another meeting after this can we skip the gun recs until after”

      “Please don’t comment on my body”
      “I can’t imagine how pregnancy is relevant to this training”

      I would have taken a bathroom break and walked into HR personally probably around the 3rd comment. And I would make sure to leave reviews with the CPR company about his misconduct.

    2. Panda (she/her)*

      If you feel comfortable, I would be inclined to either speak up about it in the training (“Please don’t make comments like that”) and/or get up and leave. In a functional company, HR and your manager should both have your back in doing this, regardless of how junior you are (I certainly would for any of my team who did this). If you don’t feel comfortable addressing it in the moment, you can also speak with HR or your manager after the fact, and again – any functional workplace would be horrified to hear that a contracted trainer is speaking with their staff this way. If you want to plan for potential future instances, you can also talk to some of the more senior people on your team and ask them to speak up if it happens again.

      It is NOT okay for them to do this, an treating anyone like that is horrible.

    3. Lady_Lessa*

      I would also make sure that the company for whom the trainer is working for knows about the problems. Preferable HR, but even an internet review would help.

    4. Sloanicota*

      You just brought back a powerful flashback from CPR training at 16 (I was a lifeguard) and the instructor kept calling on me to demo all this stuff, in theory because I was smaller and easier to carry or whatever but I was super uncomfortable being touched and like leaned over and stuff – it was horrible.

    5. OtterB*

      I’m not sure I would manage to speak up at the time for a one-off class, especially if I needed to pass the certification for the job. But absolutely let your manager or someone in HR know that the instructor was behaving like this and that your company should tell the vendor that this instructor is not welcome to return or find a different vendor.

    6. PollyQ*

      Legally, your employer has an obligation to prevent its employees from being sexually harassed, not just by its own employees, but by customers, vendors, contractors, etc., so this is definitely something your company should want to hear about. In the moment, any of DisneyChannelThis’s scripts would have been perfectly appropriate IF you had felt like using them, but I completely understand any reluctance you might have had.

      I strongly urge you to report this behavior to HR and/or whoever is in charge of this training internally. This is totally unacceptable behavior, and your company should be shutting it right down.

    7. pancakes*

      I like to think I would’ve left that class and gone straight to whoever set it up to tell them it needs to be shut down and rescheduled, but I know many people in their 20s and beyond would be hesitant to do that. I certainly would’ve left at the scheduled time, because it isn’t a thing in places I’ve worked for people to run way, way over schedule, or for me to have nowhere else I need to be, let alone for someone to try to turn a class like that into a sort of amateur comedy special, or a hostage situation, or anything as messy as what this guy did. He wasn’t brought in to free-associate, he was brought in to teach a class, and he failed in just about every way he could’ve. He went beyond failing as an instructor and subjected the students to gendered harassment. Can a few of you who were there go as a group to talk to the organizers and/or HR about what happened? I think that would be best. Have a short meeting amongst yourselves beforehand to coordinate your talking points (here’s what happened and here’s why it made many people uncomfortable, as you explained in your comment).

  82. Making a pivot. maybe.*

    I have an interview next week for a job that I am… not sure about. I haven’t gone into an interview feeling that way in a while (usually I’m really excited about it). Obviously I’m interested or I wouldn’t have applied in the first place – I just feel like I will be going in with a lot of questions- particularly about culture. Honestly the job itself sounds great – right up my alley actually – its the company I am not sure about. Glassdoor has overall very positive reviews, which is a good sign – I think this is more of a “me” thing. It’s a much bigger company than I have ever worked for, It’s a somewhat new industry for me (think going from tennis to football: both sports but very different), and it’s for profit (I have only ever worked at non-profits). I think I may be a fish out of water there.
    I want to be sure that I am going in with the right mindset and the right questions so that I can determine if I want to continue in the process (if they want me to, of course). Anyone been in this kind of situation? advice for good questions to ask/etc?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      It sounds like you’ve identified the three broad categories you’re concerned about:
      (1) working at a bigger company
      (2) new industry
      (3) moving to the for-profit world

      What within those categories are you concerned about/looking for? Brainstorm a whole bunch of questions and then put them in order of what is most important to you so you can ask those first (and then maybe ask some of the less important ones if you have enough time).

      For (1), are the roles at the bigger company more specialized? How is the company culture different at a bigger place vs a smaller place? Is there good communication between teams/departments? Is there more room for advancement?

      For (2), will most/enough of your skills transfer? Are there any new skills you will need? Has the company hired people from your current industry before and if so, have they seen any notable strengths/weaknesses/differences? Are their skills perspectives you will bring that could benefit the company’s industry?

      For (3), I’ve only ever worked for-profit, so I have no idea how it is different than non-profit or what good questions to ask are. Maybe ask about average tenure at the company/on the team to get a sense of what the turnover is like?

    2. Be kind, rewind*

      Yes! I once interviewed for a position I wasn’t sure about, and I made the mistake of asking too many questions during the interview/not talking about what I can offer to the position enough. So don’t fall into that trap!

      Figure out what your deal breakers are and focus your questions on getting to the bottom of those. Also, break down where the concerns are coming from: What is it about it being big company that concerns you- worried about too many processes? being siloed? That will help come up with more specific/useful questions to ask.

  83. Chidi has a stomach ache*

    Looking for a combo of resume/LinkedIn advice! I’m trying to break into an area that is different from my academic background. Let’s say I did my degree in llama grooming, but my research methods are commonly used by teapot designers, which is what I’m trying to break into. I have a masters and a PhD in this area — it’s a discipline where you still have to get a masters before you can even enter a PhD, so I was in grad school for a total of 8 years. My masters has a name that is very specific to my discipline: think, “Master of Llama Grooming” instead of a “Master of Arts in Llama Grooming.”

    1) Does it look suspicious if I leave my subject area for my PhD off my resume?
    2) Given the name of my masters degree, should I leave that off entirely, or is that being dishonest? Will that make me look like I just took way too long working on the PhD (note: I worked part time the entire way through grad school, but the titles were always “graduate assistant for….” so I have a work history but it’s clear it’s graduate school-related)?
    3) The advice I’m reading online for Linked In is that if you want to change fields, you should include that in your LinkedIn headline to something like “Seeking Job in Teapot Design | Current Job In Llama Grooming.” But that will definitely tip off people at my (pretty small) workplace that I’m looking for an exit ramp. I don’t want them to know I’m looking, but I also worry that my current title/sector makes me look like an unserious candidate for the new area.

    Any thoughts/advice appreciated!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think this is an area where the cover letter is crucial. I would list everything accurately on both LinkedIn and my resume, but utilize my cover letter to explain why I’m interested in moving into teapot design and exactly how my llama grooming techniques are relevant and helpful.

      2. Chidi has a stomach ache*

        Yeah, I’m definitely working on that for places where I can submit a cover letter. There are just a lot of jobs in the new field that only want resumes (and don’t even have a place to submit a cover letter), so I think I’m getting knocked out of consideration for them based on degree alone. My “llama grooming” discipline is one that people can have a lot of misunderstandings and biases about.

  84. Time's Thief*

    How do I explain a gap in employment? I lost three jobs due to the pandemic (places closing/downsizing) by May of last year. When the third job closed I decided to take some time off to deal with ongoing health issues I’d gotten after what was either the flu or (less likely) a very early case of Covid. By last winter I got a clean bill of health (yay!) but couldn’t quite face the job hunt. My background is customer service/retail and I live in a small Texan town that forwent masking even at the height of the pandemic. After the scare I had with my health, I wasn’t keen on testing just how well my vaccines protected me while in a cesspool. I tried for other jobs but even office jobs around here required in-person with masks discouraged. Several of these places forbid WFH even in 2020, for an idea of what I’m dealing with.

    We’re doing fine financially (not saving much, but covering bills) so we agreed it would be better to wait rather than tempt another health scare. I opened an online shop selling craft supplies for one of my interests (not making a lot but it covers occasional treats), took a database class, fostered some cats, and started a garden. It’s actually been really wonderful.

    However I really am itching to get back to full-time employment and also it would be nice to have more income. My concern is that huge gap in my resume. Do I just say health issues and move on? How do I couch that so it doesn’t sound like I’m going to be out sick regularly? Also, my most recent employment was also my least illustrious. For a decade I worked at a chain craft store a couple shifts a week because I loved the environment and the discounts (and I have a whole room stuffed with the proof of that). I never moved beyond cashier because I didn’t want to – my main job paid better and was less stressful. However that means now that the one job I had in 2021 was a cashier at a chain store. I’m not ashamed but that’s not where I want to start now. I have that job listed farther down the list on my resume with my more relevant jobs higher up but the two interviews I got last year, before deciding to take the time off, lead by asking why I didn’t lead with my most recent experience. Is there a way I should address that?

    1. Hedera*

      Could you not say you were self-employed running the online shop during that time? You ran it, put work into it – it counts!

      1. Time's Thief*

        Should I? It’s not very lucrative (it’s just a few hours a week) and is just an Etsy storefront so I’m concerned it’ll come across as less professional. I might be overthinking this.

    2. Prospect Gone Bad*

      I am not sure you need a big explanation, and I don’t even think this is the correct question. If I was hiring, I’d be more concerned about the “lost three jobs” so would just want assurance it was a series of bad luck or lockdown related and not a firing. I don’t see the need for a big explanation for barely two years off in this time period, if you have other work history.

      1. Time's Thief*

        Thank you, I hadn’t thought of that (probably because I lived it). Two stores closed down entirely and one non-profit brought me on for a 6-month trial for a program that got shut down due to the pandemic. So lots of bad luck but all pandemic related and (I would hope) not my fault at all. I’ll see if I can slip that into my cover letter.

        1. Prospect Gone Bad*

          Oh you’re going to get a lot of sympathy and ooh and ahs telling these stories then! Nothing to worry about at all!

          The only time people care about LT unemployment is when someone has a spotty history and the employment market is really tight.

          In this market, everyone knows about covid and realizes there is a huge gap between the “great resignation” and the actual job market. Loads of jobs are still getting 200-500 resumes.

        2. Sea Anemone*

          Is there a particular reason you want to put all three of those jobs on your resume? I would just put the first one on.

        3. WellRed*

          I feel you could maybe put that in the resume:
          fancy store
          Assistant manager, May 2020 to December 2020(store closed permanently).

    3. OtterB*

      You can say “dealing with health issues that are now resolved”

      You could also maybe separate your work experience into “relevant experience” that focused on your past main jobs that relate to what you’re trying to do now and “other experience” that includes the cashier gig.

      And I agree that a good cover letter will be very helpful.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Don’t bring up the health issues because they are no longer relevant.

      I’d go with the idea that the pandemic gave you an opportunity to open your own online business. Now that it’s pretty well established and runs fine as an evening/weekend thing, you are looking for FT work to have more structure and predictability.

      You put the store experience last because it isn’t applicable to the jobs you’re looking for.

      Most of the time, people who ask these types of questions aren’t going to press very hard unless you sound like you’re making stuff up or are just being flaky. As long as you have a reasonably plausible answer and are confident in it, they will accept it.

  85. Need to process working for incompetent boss for years*

    Hello! So, for background, I’ve known my former boss was not a good BOSS for years. They always seemed like one of those people who was a brilliant employee so they thought that would translate well into being a good LEADER, and this assessment was not correct, but I never actually doubted their actual qualifications in regards to knowing how to do the job, and I was happy to learn from them while thinking “at least I’m getting skills I can use to go elsewhere”. Now, boss has left, and immediately after boss left, a new employee was hired, and I just…

    New employee is clearly competent, in a way that makes it clearer and clearer every week that goes by that former boss was… one of those fools who talks themselves up and convinces everyone else they know what they’re talking about. I’m obviously trying to learn everything I can from the new hire, because I’m horrified by how terrible the skills I thought I had are in comparison to what they can do, but I just… how do I deal with this mentally? Everything I thought I knew is wrong!

    1. Cookies for Breakfast*

      I’ve been in a similar situation! The main difference is the competent person I’m now hoping to learn from is the manager at my new job.

      I had to find my way to reframe while job hunting. I felt so inadequate trying to talk up my “experience”, and it was clear that many hiring managers were seeing through it: the amount of practice I had in certain areas was so out of sync with what’s usually expected after a few years in my role. What I realised, and started telling myself, was along the lines of “hey, you’ve got experience. You have LOTS of experience of how not to do things, because you’ve seen OldBoss fail repeatedly, and every time you’ve tried to put your thoughts forward, your wings have been clipped. So you have a sense of what you might try differently next time, and what you want to learn to avoid repeating old mistakes. Learning from adversity is still valued, right?”

      I was able to use a version of that in job interviews, when asked about weaknesses, or areas I’m looking to develop into next. It was received much more positively than I’d expected, which was good, because I struggle to be anything but transparent about my skills and knowledge (or lack thereof). In conversation with my now manager, it opened up opportunities to learn how their department had been on a similar journey of recognising gaps and moving on. Better still, it helped me see that there might be a role I could fit into working with someone who saw my journey thus far as perfectly valid, which at that point I’d all but stopped believing.

      Which brings me to my second piece of advice: if there is someone you’d like to learn from, and you feel safe doing so, tell them. Some people may feel uncertain about passing on knowledge and teaching skills, because they’ve never done it before or are battling their own flavour of impostor syndrome. But I’m ready to bet most people will be pleased that you see and value what they do, and as long as you can be specific about what you’re hoping to get from them, will want to find out how they could help. Don’t let the new employee’s competence intimidate you (easier said than done, I know) – someone with different or more knowledge can bring great learning opportunities, and even if you don’t see it just yet, it’s just as likely that there are approaches and perspectives they can also learn from working with you.

      I hope this is at least a little bit useful, and wish you all the best in untangling yourself from the incompetent boss baggage!

  86. sara.bellum*

    Partner works for local government in the livestock department and is also a lifelong llama groomer. He has done a lot to grow the local llama grooming community long before his government job and works closely on many city llama projects. The role of city llama groomer recently became vacant but the job is not posted yet (pretty normal for government roles) – there are some indications he’s the presumptive candidate, but who knows. Members of the civilian llama grooming community have reached out to partner saying they want him to be the city llama groomer. Which is nice and all – but is highly irrelevant the hiring process.

    Until now – a senior member of the llama community wants to write a letter to “city officials” (unclear if this means elected officials or staff leadership) advocating for partner’s hiring, and have other llama groomers sign it. This person has asked partner to create a draft letter so the final letter will reflect everything partner has contributed to the community. This feels like a terrible idea, right?

    Any other compromise ideas (like “here is a list of project highlights”)? Or just say “thanks, but no thanks” or “thanks, but I can’t help with the writing”?

    1. MsM*

      Yeah, I’d treat this like a letter of recommendation: “Here’s my resume, and I’m happy to talk about anything you might need more details on, but I don’t feel it would be appropriate for me to write this.” Assuming this will actually help. If it’s not a thing that’s done in the field and/or there’s evidence out there that it would be seen as pushy and presumptive, partner should say, “I appreciate it, but what would actually be more helpful is X,” where X is something like a one-on-one conversation with someone influential who respects the senior member and would appreciate their advice.

  87. Hawk*

    I need to know if my brain is anxious over nothing (I have an anxiety disorder), or if I have a real problem (and if there are better solutions).

    In the last month, I realized that our flyers have been really outdated. In my work, I hand out a lot of flyers in my work (outreach that is treated almost solely as marketing by our management). I work in a level team of 4, with a temporary manager. All of us are working in different locations. I put out a call for flyer updates on our Teams page at the beginning of April, as the need for accurate flyers is increasing. I mentioned it to my boss as well. No response. At the team meeting a week later (virtual), I reminded folks that I had posted it. A week later, another verbal reminder at another meeting (which I will also mention). A week later, I used the tagging function to tag everyone, set a due date, and… I had one response. I then sent in the flyers to be updated (our graphic designer has to make the actual updates) and discovered that two of the flyers couldn’t be updated because they also needed to be sent to the manager of the program we are promoting for updates.

    Start to finish, it was a full month of no response. We also have no schedule for updating flyers, so many of them haven’t been updated since September or earlier.

    Why do I ask for updates instead of just sending them in? Well, we have a lot of flyers, I’m one person, and there is no way for me to spot everything on my own. If someone had even read my post, then I wouldn’t have sent in a flyer that didn’t need to be updated to be updated!

    Where is my boss in all of this? I don’t know.

    I also brought flyers up to our marketing team committee lead, because technically new requests for flyers go through her. I also brought up some other issues related to flyers. This was about a week and a half before our most recent committee meeting, and there was and has been no response. She is very busy (she’s the director’s executive assistant), so no response is a little less surprising.

    But… am I wrong to feel anxious over all of this? The graphic designer went out of town the day I sent in the flyers so I won’t have any updated for my next few events. Should I have waited as long as I did or even waited at all? Just sent them in? Asked my boss, who saw all of this happen? She approves of how I’ve been doing the flyers and even mentioned it as a positive in my last review. Am I right to be annoyed over all of this?

    1. Water Everywhere*

      Is it specifically part of your job to keep an eye on the flyer content and start the process to get them updated? I ask this because this line “I put out a call for flyer updates on our Teams page” sounds like you were only pointing out the need for updates and not that you are responsible for starting the process. If I’m wrong, my apologies and yes, you are right to be annoyed at the lack of response.

      If it’s not your job to request flyer updates then it’s still annoying that they’re not getting done but I think you need to drop it. All the posts & reminders & tags may come across as you ignoring the standard process (inefficient as it may be) and criticizing those whose job it is, which rarely effects positive change.

      1. Hawk*

        You’re completely right. There is no official process. None whatsoever. There’s no instructions if something is out of date, just that the information has to be corrected… at some point? Maybe? I have no structure or instructions in my job whatsoever. My goal was to make things easier instead of sending things piecemeal with even less lead time for the graphic designer. This is the policy in the rest of the organization too, so a LOT of flyers tend to be out of date.

    2. Hen in a Windstorm*

      Ah, memories. I think the problem is you don’t have the standing you need to get your colleagues to do the work they need to do. (Maybe also Bob thinks Jim will do it, but Jim thinks Alila will do it, but nobody actually says anything so nobody does it?)

      I used to be responsible for updating a “team manual” semi-regularly with all of our job duties (a reference if someone was out or a process only got done occasionally). I almost never got anyone to actually give me their updates. It wasn’t a priority for anyone else. I had no authority to push, just nag. I had to get my boss to weigh in if I needed an update.

      So if I were you, I’d talk to your boss about this. What priority level is it? If you don’t get replies, what’s your next move? Is it costing you money, lost clients, something tangible to the business? That kind of thing.

  88. AMinion*

    I recently found out my coworkers and I are severely underpaid for our roles and location – a good 50%+ (salary sites say 80%). The article earlier this week was very timely. I’d like to approach my manager about a raise and have been reading articles on AAM towards that end.

    The main challenge I’ve found is we work in a very niche role so it has been difficult to find proof of what current market pays. There are definitely not professional organizations for what we do. I read on AAM that the salary calculator sites cannot be completely accurate because they miss the nuance of different roles etc. For example: estimator covers everything from building construction to small product production.

    Additionally, the company was purchased last year and there are rumors our counterparts at Big Company get paid significantly more. I would like to simply ask to be paid the same for the same job (our COL is a bit higher). But it seems like there is not a way to confirm the rumors. There is also a hiring freeze in place so maybe none of this matters anyway.

    Otherwise, I very much enjoy where I work and can see myself here for years.

    Do I approach this with management when I suspect they cannot or will not be able to make significant changes? According to a coworker who has been with the company for decades, there is a long history if being underpaid with this company.

    1. AMinion*

      The act of writing this out has made me think the company will not be able to fix this, certainly not for the entire dept. And the only way to get a higher salary is to leave…

    2. Prospect Gone Bad*

      How do you know you are grossly underpaid but simultaneously can’t find data to back it up? It sounds like a gotcha and I don’t mean it that way, but if someone came to me as a manager saying they are underpaid by 50% but went on to say they couldn’t prove it since their role is niche, I would have no clue how to handle the situation. I think the onus is on you to prove the case

        1. Prospect Gone Bad*

          Find generic titles for your job and glassdoor it. TBH many jobs that get called “niche” here aren’t that niche. The person is usually doing common work in a niche field. I am hopeful you can find comparable roles to use as comps!

  89. Alice*

    My employer went mask-optional recently “because CDC says that’s safe.”
    Now our county is in the CDC “high community level,” and CDC guidance says “wear a mask indoors in public regardless of vax status,” but company is staying mask-optional.

    1. Time's Thief*

      I’m sorry. It’s frustrating, especially when it’s such a simple step to take to reduce the risk. I wish I had advice but, living in a part of the country that never really believed in the threat to start with, all I have is sympathy and the standard platitudes about wearing your own high-protection mask and trusting your vaccination and we both know those steps, while helpful, only go so far when others insist on being plague spreaders.

      Can you get a small air purifier for your desk/office? Again, not a complete solution but it would give you that much more protection at least. Plus it’s great for allergies so even post-pandemic you’ll get a lot of value out of it.

      1. Alice*

        I guess I should count my blessings…. Thanks and good luck to you too :)
        And no, my employer says air filters have to be approved by facilities. If I had my own office I’d just go for it anyway but I’m in a big open office that various people walk through.

    2. Prospect Gone Bad*

      Are you sure your understanding of the guidance is a correct? I can’t find any update in guidance except for a few localities. Of course you might be in one of those, but the articles I am finding just came out today. So that’s another thing. Most of the changes in behavior in both direction take weeks becuase most people don’t follow the CDC website! It took people here a few weeks to even hear about mask mandates ending. You’d be surprised how few people follow the news!

      1. Alice*

        It’s not that they updated the guidance itself, but that my county has achieved (“achieved”) the “high community level” status. So now the high guidance applies instead of the medium guidance. I’ll put some CDC links below in case anyone wants to check out their local situation.

          1. Prospect Gone Bad*

            This is a neat website, thank you! I have to say, you’re ahead of 99% of people knowing where to find this. I had been watching CDC updates and found that word never gets down to “street level” in 2-3 weeks on both ends, both when stuff gets implemented and when it gets taken away. I know it can be frustrating when health issues are involved, but no one is constantly refreshing CDC websites hoping for an update!

    3. RagingADHD*

      If masks are optional, take the option.

      We’re at the point (long past the point) that most places are “everyone for themselves.” You can wear yourself out butting your head into the wall, or you can just do what you can do to protect yourself and know that when risk can’t be eliminated, risk mitigation is the best there is.

  90. Ivka*

    I need outside opinions about body hair and professional dress codes as partial return-to-office looms. I stopped removing body hair during the pandemic, and am starting to feel self-conscious about picking summer office clothes for my job, which is on a small team and non-client facing but in a pretty traditional industry (think law). I’m a young woman and I like to dress fashionably, which in the winter includes skirts and tights. I’ve erred on the side of avoiding sleeveless blouses (my thought is that men don’t get to show their armpit hair at the office, either), but my pre-pandemic summer work clothes are mostly dresses and skirts (knee-length, but I have visible hair). Am I overthinking this and it’s fine – or am I right in thinking that this would be far enough outside current professional norms that I would get looks? I know the answer is that it *shouldn’t* matter, but be honest: if there was a woman with openly hairy legs at work, would she get significantly side-eyed? If so, I’ll just invest in some tea length skirts and lightweight pants (I would rather die than wear pantyhose). Thanks for your thoughts.

    1. Yoga Sloth*

      I can’t speak to law, but I work in higher ed IT, and I have often donned hairy ankles at work, and as far as I can tell, no one notices. And my ankle hair is really dark and I have fair skin, so if you happened to look at my shoes, you’d notice the hair. However my workplace is pretty casual. I mostly wear jeans and nice-ish tops, but almost always sneakers, Doc Marten boots, or sandals. I don’t ever have a need to wear dress shoes or suits or anything. I myself would not care if a person showed up in a skirt with hairy legs. There are several guys here who have worn kilts and shorts, and no one cared about their VERY HAIRY legs.

      I think only one person at my work has ever really noticed my hairy legs, and she’s the kind of person that makes little snide comments about all kinds of things, so I ignore her anyway. Now if I was meeting with our university president? I would probably wear something more formal which would include trousers, but I don’t think a bit of hairy ankle would matter.

    2. Ashkela*

      As someone who had many years of not being able to shave her legs for medical reasons, which once alleviated continued to not bother most of the time, I’d say that your legs are just fine, don’t worry about it. Anyone who would comment on it is not someone who is a lot of bad words I try to not say during the work day.

      I agree about the armpit hair thing – I don’t want to see it on any gender coworker in the office, so steering clear of sleeveless shirts is probably your best bet. (Though in everyday life, folx can suck it. It’s only been a thing for the last 100 years to shave them anyway)

    3. Never Nicky*

      If people are close enough to see your leg hair, they are too close in these times.

    4. Ann Perkins Knope*

      I can’t answer this, exactly, but I also stopped removing my hair (about 3 years ago maybe? Pre-pandemic, was on a work softball team for one year of full leg hair), and recently saw another coworker with some leg hair (she was wearing pants but maybe just shortish ankle-length?) and I just was pretty happy about that!

      But I personally don’t wear shorts or skirts or dresses in summer, partly because of the nature of my job often calls for pants and partially because I don’t like shorts or skirts at work, I just, I’m still probably a bit wary of side eye, outside of work or at sports, I happily wear shorts and don’t care what people think, but at work, in general, I want more clothes, an armor made of soft, in summer breezy or light, but solid clothes.

    5. RagingADHD*

      In any law firm I have worked at, this would be very far outside norms and would get a large amount of side-eye unless you were in a niche job with very little contact with other employees and no contact with clients (mailroom, law library, archives, maybe AP/AR).

  91. Help*

    So I work for a small 501c6 non-profit organization. We have 8 employees, an annual operating budget of about a million dollars. And this week, our financial person almost wire transferred $200,000 to someone claiming to be our “boss.” She had all of the paperwork filled out and ready to go at the bank. She had texted our boss about something else and mentioned she was at the bank and finally put it together that it was a scam. We were literally moments away from losing 20% of our operating budget for the entire year. I even saw the emails back and forth between her and “boss” and literally every part of it seemed like a scam, I don’t understand how she didn’t realize it. Another coworker fell victim to a scam this week as well and bought $250 of Amazon giftcards.

    I guess I am just wondering if anyone has any training videos or other helpful resources they have put together on detecting spam emails?

    1. OyHiOh*

      I’m in a similarly tiny non profit and used to have a colleague who would routinely respond to gift card phishing scams “just for fun” and “to see what they’ll say.” That colleague is no longer with us, for unrelated reasons, but heavens, it was a stupid game to play!

      If you don’t have in house IT (we don’t!), you might consider contracting with a freelance IT person in your area to conduct low-key assessment/test/training of your employees on internet security.

      On a completely unrelated note, I needed to purchase a significant dollar amount in gift cards recently, for a participation drawing we were conducting at work. I am very thankful to the big box store cashier who looked at my stack of gift cards and quietly asked “now, do you know where these are going? Are you sure the recipient can be trusted?” I told her they were for a participation drawing and the cashier looked like a weight had been lifted off their shoulders.

      1. saf*

        I work for a church. We regularly buy grocery gifts cards to give to folks who need groceries. Every time, the cashier checks like that.

    2. Lady_Lessa*

      Our overall owners, RPM, uses Mimecast for their video training. I have found them good, not too long (Less than 10 minutes each) and sometimes helpful. Like I didn’t know that plugging in a smart phone for recharging could transfer bad things.

      I tend to be wary, so some of the recommendations I already do.

    3. just another bureaucrat*

      One of the important things about this is to not talk about it like you don’t understand how people fall for them. Talk about them that anyone can fall for it. That scammers are good at what they do. Anyone can be caught in a phishing trap. Anyone can fall for a scam. Everyone should assume, including you and I, that they could be caught in one. Talking about them as if only stupid people fall for them is a really bad idea. And it’s something I’ve pushed back on really hard in my organization which has helped a lot.

      We are a giant government, but most of my immediate coworkers send anything slightly suspicious to me and I’ll do a quick second set of eyes check and if I’m still not sure I’ll send it to the help desk. But the idea that everyone including senior people, including experienced and high level people do this has helped to make everyone more aware.

      I’ve shown them some of the best scams out there, the ones where the websites are exact replicas of the site they are phishing. Emails and steps that look perfectly legit. These things help people understand to be a lot more aware.

    4. Sloanicota*

      O.M.G. I admit, in the finance world I would mistrust someone who didn’t think to get more verification for a wire transfer, which is a super risky thing (I know when I bought my house the bank warned me like sixty times that these were irreversible and that scammers might try to get me to change the numbers last-minute). I have known interns and non-finance people who fell for the fake email scam and bought apple cards or whatever, but someone in finance needs to have a procedure for this that involves live phone verification and two signatures or whatever.

    5. Purple Cat*

      Oh man, my company just had us do a training on this, and it was really good, but it’s on an in-house platform and I don’t see any reference to an outside group that may have developed it.

      The gov ftc sight has some good content.
      consumer.ftc.gov/articles/how-recognize-and-avoid-phishing-scams

  92. talos*

    Strange job interview story…

    Last week I had a phone screen. It went fine, I got to the next round of interviews, I’m not sure I want the job but I might. The weird part is that for half an hour, every question the recruiter asked was followed with the phrase “would love to know more”.

    “Tell me about yourself. Would love to know more.”

    “Tell me about the Teapots project you worked on. Would love to know more.”

    “Tell me about your strongest [skill in a particular category of professional skills]. Would love to know more.”

    “Are you willing to relocate for this position? Would love to know more.”

    “Tell me why you’re interested in this position. Would love to know more.”

    This isn’t a problem, and it’s not really inaccurate. It just felt somewhat strange and I wanted to share.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Ha! This sounds like it could be a case of an undercover alien who took a bad “how to blend in with Earthlings” training on their home planet.

      “Remember, on Earth you must say ‘would love to know more’ after every question or the humans won’t answer you.”

    2. Irish Teacher*

      Sounds just like a verbal tic kind of thing. Like some people say “you know what I mean?” after every sentence. Or else just a way of “softening” their language. Like they don’t want to sound like they are interrogating you, so they are trying to phrase it less like “defend your experience in this area!” and more like “wow, you have so much experience. I would love to hear about it. Tell me more.”

      1. talos*

        That would be my guess, I just found it strange that the recruiter asked it the exact same way every time. By the end of the interview I was chuckling quietly every time she said it, and very glad I was not on video.

    3. Art3mis*

      I had an interviewer start every question with “So, let me ask you a question…” and I mean every question started with that. He ended up being my boss and I think he was just socially awkward. Twenty years later though and I haven’t forgotten that.

    4. Eff Walsingham*

      Robot! Run!

      No, someone is just reading from a stupid script. I’d have been hard pressed not to laugh.

    5. GoryDetails*

      I’d be tempted to echo it in my own questions. “So I hear the salary range is x-to-y. Would love to know more!”

  93. Aimzzz*

    I want some opinions on something. I am turning in my notice today (yay!!) and last night I was reading up on what day/time of day you should turn in your notice. Half the advice was to do it on a Friday afternoon so there’s a cooling-off period for everyone involved. The other half said it was “rude” to quit on a Friday because you’ll be “ruining your boss’s weekend”… does that really matter? It’s not my job to coddle my boss’s feelings, right? I think it’s so odd that they would give that reasoning.

    1. bluebonnets88*

      I always think about when I want to start my new job and count back from there. Usually, I like to start a new job on a Thursday, so my notice usually goes in on a Wednesday or Thursday. I really don’t think it matters what day you give notice on, although, if I were a manager, I might prefer *not* a Friday, so that I could start planning / putting into motion what needs to happen right away. I think if someone quitting “ruins the boss’s weekend”, the boss should probably stop being a boss.

    2. Yoga Sloth*

      I don’t think it matters. This is similar to the “when should you send out rejections” letters. No matter when you do it, someone might have an issue with it, so you just have to do it when it’s best for you. I think most *reasonable* people like to know as soon as possible so they can start figuring out next steps.

    3. Alexis Rosay*

      Hmmm, it’s about doing what’s best for you, first and foremost, and when that’s been considered, give your boss as much notice as possible can so they can plan for the transition. “As much as possible” differs greatly depending on how reasonable your boss is, though, and if your boss is not reasonable, it might actually translate to “as little as possible”. I don’t think the day of the week matters.

      1. Aimzzz*

        Honestly, no amount of notice is really going to help in this situation. I’m giving two weeks, but that’s not really going to do much. I’m part of a two person department and my boss quit last month. Now I’m leaving, and they’re really gonna be in a tight spot. I wish I could say I was a good enough person to feel bad about it…..but I’m not. They don’t even deserve two weeks.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      I gave my notice during the weekly one-on-one meeting I had with my boss (middle of the day on a Wednesday, for what it’s worth) because that made the most sense logistically. I gave slightly more than two weeks, because my last day was on a Friday.

      My boss was surprised and a little sad to see me go, and they were also very professional about the whole thing so I never felt the need to coddle their feelings.

      1. Aimzzz*

        I think the reason I am so dead set on a Friday is that they are going to absolutely hit the roof when I tell them. I have no idea what to expect, but I’ve already packed up and brought home most of my things in case they lose their shit and I need to leave permanently today.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          With that context, I think you should absolutely give your notice on Friday afternoon. You are not ruining their weekend, they (and their bad management it sounds like) is ruining their weekend. And much better that than giving notice during the week and having them be grumpy (or worse) at you for a few days.

    5. fhqwhgads*

      It does not matter. Unless, like, your boss literally just told you a second ago they just learned of some family emergency and need to leave, and you’d be making them stay 2 extra minutes while you give them notice. In that case, let them go and tell them next time, or email, or tell the next up in the chain. But other than a facet of that particular moment being clearly a bad time, or if you’re concerned you’ll be walked out on the spot, you don’t need to factor in time of day or when is “best”. Just tell them when you tell them.

  94. Hedera*

    Hoping the combined powers of the commentariat can help me out. I’m currently in the middle of a six-month contract with a well-respected employer I thought I had absolutely zero chance with when I initially applied. My boss, who is great, was very clear even during the hiring process that while it’s not impossible they’ll offer me a more permanent position after my six months are up, I shouldn’t expect it. My problem now is that I’m not sure when I should seriously start looking for my next position. I really enjoy my work, my team, and the company is a major boost to my resume so I really want to finish out the entirety of the contract to avoid burning or even singeing any bridges. But I also don’t want to get caught in job application hell for too long if at all possible. But then again I also don’t feel comfortable putting out applications now if the earliest I could start is realistically the beginning of October.

    What are everyone’s thoughts? My dad thinks I should be applying to things now, but my mom is more on my side and thinks I should wait a few more months. If it helps, the industry I’m currently in generally tends to hire fairly quickly, but my specific role also exists outside the industry and I’d be looking at those jobs too.

    1. MsM*

      I’d say if you see a listing for another dream job now, go ahead and go for it. For anything that’s not worth potentially burning your bridges over, wait until you’re a month or two out (depending on what “fairly quickly” looks like in your field and how flexible employers tend to be on start dates), and start searching in earnest while trying to get a sense from your boss whether there’s any chance your tenure might be extended or not.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      It sounds like now is a good time to update your resume, and maybe to start applying to jobs outside your current industry because they typically have a longer hiring process. You can also start slowly, only sending out one application per week (or whatever feels right for you). In a month or two, you can start applying for jobs within your current industry.

      If a company that you apply to soon-ish does have a fast hiring cycle and they do extend an offer, you can always ask if you can start in October. The closer it gets to October, the more likely they are to wait for you. And if they can’t, you can always decline their offer in order to finish out your current contract position.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      Apply. Apply now. Apply often. If you leave earlier than your six months for a permeant position, no one at your current job should be surprised or upset. They knew it was a six month position. There’s always a risk you lose someone early. Most job hiring takes a month or more and you can tell people that you would not be able you to start until October. Applying for a job isn’t taking a job, it is giving yourself an additional option. So, clearly, I’m on the side of apply, because you don’t want to be jobless come November.

    4. Alex*

      I think it depends on how bad for you it would be to be unemployed for a little bit. These things sometimes take time and sometimes happen quickly–you never know! I’d start keeping an eye out and apply for jobs you’d regret not applying to if it came to the end of your contract and you didn’t have something great lined up.
      And four months will go by faster than you think.

  95. ArmouringUp*

    Does anyone have any advice on fashion choices for interviewing over Zoom? I’ve an interview next Friday with a local university, and am not sure of the current zeitgeist, especially since my last interview was a rather informal internal affair.

    2. sdog*

      So I’m curious for everyone’s take on this. I recently started a new job a few months ago, and while I like it, I’m not in love with it. It’s not so much the work itself (which I really like), but more just the vibe, I guess. I like everyone I’ve met here, but haven’t met very many folks because most of us are still working from home. Also, it’s not as collaborative an environment as I’d hoped, as everyone works on their own projects, and I don’t really hear much about what others are working on (an aspect of my old job that I really enjoyed and had specifically asked about during my interviews with the current place). And my manager seems extremely hands off. Would it be crazy for me to look for something else? It doesn’t help that I keep seeing postings for similar positions that pay more than what I’m making so the 15% bump I got when applying for this position suddenly seems less exciting than I’d previously thought.

      Of course, there’s no guarantee that I’ll get any of these positions, but I’m hesitant to start if such a quick turnaround would be a huge no-no. How would I even explain why I’m looking again so quickly???? It’s already been a few months, so I don’t think I can just leave the gap in my resume. Also, I’m aware that I’d probably burn this bridge, and that gives me a lot of pause, especially since there are no huge red flags per se. On the other hand, I keep thinking, is this a place that I see myself staying at for 2-4 years, and I just don’t know.

      What would you all do? Mostly, I’m just looking for some opinions and thoughts to get some clarity in my own head. For what it’s worth, I was at my old job for over a decade, so I feel like I do have some capital in that department (i.e., I haven’t been a job hopper before now, and really just feel like I want another place I can settle into for a while).

      1. sdog*

        oops, not sure why this popped up as a reply rather than a new question. sorry about that! i specifically went up to the top to add a new comment, so not sure what i did wrong. don’t know how to change it now.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’d dress formally. I usually wear suit jacket and blouse when I interview over Zoom and make sure I have a professional background. Here’s the thing- unless you’re interviewing with field biologists (which I did once in a suit and shockingly, didn’t get the job), generally being over dressed is better than underdressed.

    4. Haha Lala*

      I’d go with a suit and a nice shirt- you’d rather be over dressed than under dressed. And make sure you have on the matching suit bottoms (or at least professional slacks) just in case you need to stand up or go get something.
      I go with solid color blouses/suits, so there’s no worry about the patterns looking odd on camera- you can always do a test run to see how your outfit comes across.
      I think more importantly for a video interview, you want there to be no visual distractions for your interviewer- whether that be in your background or your outfit. Let them focus on you and what you have to say.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Wear whatever you’d wear to an in-person interview pre-pandemic. There’s no downside, and a potential upside if the interviewer cares about that sort of thing.

  96. The Spaghetti Is Not Sticking to the Wall*

    I’m off-site today. Not WFH, not in the office. In a weird transitory space because that’s part of my job to go where trouble might be. Fortunately, it’s unlikely trouble will visit today. But, I’m troubled. And rather than write in my journal and share my existential crisis with no one but me, I thought – maybe sharing my thoughts with anonymous others, might soothe my troubled mind.

    I am officially burnt out. For almost decades, I’ve milked my career for all its worth. I’ve transitioned into different industries, I’ve worked on different projects, I’ve even picked up new skills. The results are the same. I’m fine for a time or two and then I’m not. I do not like the very nature of my career. I have to assess and analyze what everyone else wants in order to do my job well. But, I have completely lost sight of what I want. I’m anxious by nature. My job is subjective. Having to address the politics of an organization or even society and then make a decision that will appease the right group of people?… The lack of objectivity sets my brain on fire. I literally have dreams about moving to a cabin in the woods of Vermont. And on particularly rough days, wishing I could break my leg and land in the hospital for two weeks.

    Sure, I could use a vacation. And sure, a two week vacation or even three weeks, might screw my head back on. But, it won’t solve the issue that I have spent nearly two decades on a career and living in a city that I want to abandon. And it makes me feel ridiculous and childish. I don’t regret the decisions I’ve made. But, I do feel like I’ve wasted my time. Because I am not happy. And for the life of me, I wish I knew what would make me happy right now.

    1. Dragonfly7*

      Commiserating, and I think your screen name describes that feeling perfectly.

    2. Pete the Cat*

      Also commiserating. Please take that vacation – and then take a staycation. Take some time to unwind, and although you’re right that it fixes things only temporarily, sometimes that’s enough to get a second wind. Or to get a new perspective.
      Please know that you’re neither ridiculous nor childish. Our values and attitudes change constantly throughout our lives, and FFS, the past few years have sent that natural process into psychotic overdrive! You may have had an undercurrent of dissatisfaction for the past 20ish years, but now you’ve finally hit your ‘enough is enough’ wall.
      So: can you look into a new gig, something related so you don’t feel you’ve wasted decades in what you’ve been doing, but taking it from a different angle or responsibility, and in a new town or state? We usually stick with things because we feel we have no options. Are you in a position to take a sabbatical and look into new adventures?
      Great good luck to you.

    3. Hen in a Windstorm*

      You’ve never wasted any time. You said yourself you’ve learned things and that’s never a waste. It sounds like it’s time to move on though, because dreaming of being badly injured and hospitalized means you’re in a dark place.

      I would ask yourself why you are calling yourself names like “childish” and “ridiculous”. You sound like you’re trying to suppress yourself and that you think negative labels will… what? make these feelings go away? Behave themselves? Instead, I would suggest validating your feelings. They’re real. They are your adult real feelings. They’re also pretty common! I moved out of the smallish town I went to for college when I realized I literally couldn’t get lost there. Arguably more childish than your reasons, but I didn’t beat myself up over it, I went with it.

      It’s okay to want different things at different stages of life. If you hate your career, you definitely need to do something else – that’s no way to go through life. Also, maybe check out the FIRE (Financial Independence/Retire Early) community. Good luck.

  97. Ashkela*

    I’m all for farewell parties for team members leaving, but when someone has only been in their position for under 6 months, do they really rate an hour long ‘we’re going to miss you so much!’ fanfare mandatory meeting, especially when they’re leaving the team in the lurch?

    2. Employed Minion*

      No they do not. Before 2020, we had a college grad leave after 4? months. I do not begrudge her getting an interim job before finding something she preferred! However, getting a catered farewell lunch felt out of touch and out of scale.

    3. PollyQ*

      Maybe they don’t “rate” it, but on the other hand, it’s just one hour out of your life. And “leaving the team in the lurch” shouldn’t even be considered. Presumably most employees are leaving a hole when they take a new position. That’s just business as usual.

  98. ughhhh*

    earlier this week i applied to an internal job posting and let my current manager know. she was really supportive but said there would be a giant hole left in my absence. me and her used to report to the same person, but she was always senior to me. about 6 months ago she got promoted and became my boss. so we were friendly before. now she just asked me if i have 30 min later to talk… i’m so nervous because i think she’s going to ask me why i applied for that role and what can she do to keep me… i am sooo bad at these conversations. i get too emotional. and i don’t know how much of the truth to say. it’s her first time being a manager and i know she wants to do her best but i feel really uncomfortable giving her feedback.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      If it’s true (or just true enough), I would say something along the lines of “I’m excited for [new role] because I want to [learn new skills/gain experience in that area]. I’ve enjoyed working you, especially [one positive thing she’s done as a manager], I just feel [now is a good time for me to move on/I can’t pass up this new opportunity].” Try to keep the conversation as positive, professional, and general as you can. Good luck!

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      If you are uncomfortable sharing feedback, then just go with wanting to learn something new and see it as a good career move. That your current job (and even she) has prepared you to try something new. If you have some “light” feedback, try to provide it. Nothing like “you are a jerk of a boss”. If she asks if there anything she can do to keep you and if there really isn’t, just let her know that this isn’t about wanting to leave her or your current job but the new opportunity sounds interesting so you wanted to explore it. You don’t want to burn a bridge here as you don’t know if you will get the new job or not. You want her to understand this isn’t about escaping, but growing.

  99. Middle Name Jane*

    I recently was offered a new job with a 20% raise and better benefits (yay!), but I was surprised that nobody asked for any references. I’ve had jobs before where they requested references and then didn’t call all of them, but this company never asked me for any references.

    Should I be worried?

    1. Llama face!*

      Fwiw, I have also been running into this while job searching. I’ve had more than one job offer without any references requested. And, like you mentioned, it seems that often when references are requested they are still never contacted. I’m not sure why this is the case but it doesn’t seem like an uncommon thing these days.

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I wouldn’t be. It could well be that they have better and more reliable ways to screen prospective employees.

      Are there any other red, orange, or yellow flags that concern you?

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve heard some people say that references are useless because the references are always glowing (not true). Some people actually believe that even though, by that same logic, interviews would also be useless, since the candidate will always try to paint themselves in the best light.

    4. HR Exec Popping In*

      Many very big companies don’t ask for references. Generally provided references are only going to say good things about you. But they do extensive background checks to make sure you are who you say you are. I don’t think this is a red flag or anything to be concerned about.

    5. Middle Name Jane*

      I appreciate the replies. Looks like the consensus is that it’s not terribly unusual or alarming for a company to not ask for references. I was surprised, but I also know employers increasingly have policies prohibiting staff from giving references for former employees (other than verifying dates of employment), so that may be a factor too. I know my current company won’t do anything except verify employment dates.

    6. Internist*

      No, I don’t think so. I’ve skipped reference checks when they would be unlikely to make a difference to my hiring decision. For example, if one person is really outstanding and there is no good second choice, or if I am in a hurry to hire someone for a time-sensitive project. Irresponsible? Maybe, but sometimes you just have to triage your time.

    7. alt ac*

      I literally panicked about this when I was offered a job last week. I’ve accepted the position, and they still haven’t asked, but they’re also doing a background check which I guess is more important to them? I checked around, and a lot of people said companies aren’t always checking references. Here’s to us!

    8. Be kind, rewind*

      I was also really surprised when my current company didn’t ask for references. I figured it was because they give candidates a skills test. (A reasonable and relevant test in a role that’s easy to test for.) But I found it odd, too.

  100. Here we go again*

    Has anyone ever attended a work banquet black tie affair? I’m going to be invited to this banquet in august for hitting an achievement milestone. Which is awesome because it comes with a bonus whether I attend or not. But I don’t have anything that fancy, I’m casual outside of work so is my husband. I’m way more comfortable in my broken in Levi’s and my Metallica shirt. I’ve never been to a wedding that formal and people wore jeans to my high school prom. I will not spend my entire bonus check on a dress I’m going to wear once. Then there’s an open bar, my boss told me a ton of people got sloppy drunk last year. I’d rather avoid seeing my coworkers like that. And then I’d have to hire a babysitter for my night off, honestly I know I will enjoy spending time at home with my son way more than I would with my coworkers. But a part of me wants to go, because I earned a fancy steak dinner. But I don’t think it’s worth the hassle. I know first world problems. Should I go or not?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I would go. Its a chance to network a little. If it’s terrible then you have a better frame of view for deciding not to go next time you win a big fancy award. (Congrats!). You can always make a fake emergency and leave early if you’re hating it (oh no my poor son is puking babysitter just texted bye everyone). There’s plenty of cheaper fancy dresses, thrift stores are great, or even like a JCPenny can get you <$100. Also, free food!

    2. hobbette*

      Congrats on your milestone (and bonus!) As someone who has attended one too many boring work functions, I vote for getting a sitter so you and your husband can celebrate at a good restaurant. Or just order in and enjoy a relaxing night at home. Fancy dinners are nice but in the context of a black tie work banquet, way overrated.

    3. Yoga Sloth*

      As some who loves free fancy dinners but not work social events, I would probably go for just a bit and then leave early. It would be kind of nice to be recognized for the achievement. I am also quite uncomfortable in dressy clothes. So there’s a few options for that, should you go: ThredUp, Poshmark, local thrift stores, or Rent the Runway. I checked Rent the Runway and even just renting something on there was way too expensive for me, so I typically turn to the other thrift places. But if the dress code is actually black tie, then that might be your best bet. I would check with other people who have attended in the past to see what people actually wear to these things, because my experience has been that the dress code on the invite is more of “hope” and people will typically just wear cocktail stuff.

      For actual clothing – I like jumpsuits, and fancy slacks with fancy tops and platform shoes. I hate wearing dresses. Fortunately non-skirted options are everywhere and if you start looking early, you could probably find something through thrifting. Also, ASOS has many inexpensive options – I got a great jumpsuit for my sister’s wedding (where I was maid of honor) for about $30. They also have separates.

      All that being said – a night in with the family and bonus money sounds awesome! Congrats!

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Can you ask folks what the formality level is? People who’ve been before, ideally? Because when I went to a formal event at my work there was everything from folks in tuxedos to people like me in pencil skirt and sequined blouse to folks in a nice blouse and dark jeans. When in doubt, find someone you an grill. Personally, I’d go for both the networking and you earned steak!

    5. HR Exec Popping In*

      A simple black dress is always appropriate and you can find one fairly inexpensive, especially if you are willing to look at thrift or consignment options. The real question is if you want to go or not. It sounds like you don’t. If you don’t, then don’t go. If you aren’t sure, then I default to yes as it is a new experience and you earned the recognition. But if you believe you will not enjoy it at all then feel free to skip it. Recognition shouldn’t feel like punishment.

    6. Em from CT*

      Congrats! Good for you.

      The only advice I have, if you choose to go, is rent the runway. It’s been a couple years since I’ve looked into prices, but you basically get to rent a fancy dress or suit and then return it.

      1. Angstrom*

        My goddaughter uses Rent the Runway for formal work-related functions. It’s a way for her to dress up and try different looks that she’d never dream of buying.

    7. Purple Cat*

      Well, I think a black-tie work affair is kinda ridiculous, for all the reasons you stated.
      So I would definitely suss out how formal it REALLY is. But even then, I just scored a dress for <$100 for a black-tie optional wedding, and I'm plus size, so it was no small feat. There are definitely deals that can be found.
      Are there any people attending that you would like to socialize with? It sounds like this event would be way out of the norm for your typical life, and it's nice to "see how the other half lives" when given the opportunity.

    8. RagingADHD*

      Go! Rent a dress, get your hair blown out, and make an evening of it.

      Don’t we all need some new and different experiences right about now? Maybe it will be fun, maybe it will be not-so-fun, but it’s a reason to get out of the house and do something different for one evening. If nothing else, you’ll get some stories out of your coworkers acting the fool.

      1. Workerbee*

        I commend OP for knowing their own comfort level and wanting to stick to it.

        1. RagingADHD*

          The OP’s final sentence was – direct quote –

          “Should I go or not?”

          In ordinary English usage, that would be a request for opinions. I offered mine, as explicitly requested.

    9. MaryMarie*

      Does the event specifically say Black Tie ? Black Tie Optional? Or Formal?

      Formal doesn’t mean Black Tie.
      Black Tie means men wear a tux.
      Black Tie Optional means a Tux is not overdressed, but suits are ok.

      These days, Formal means suit & tie for men and dressy for women.

      It’s obnoxiously inconsiderate for a work function to REQUIRE black tie.

      Go to your local thrift store. Silky trousers and a fancy blouse is fine. Stay at the event long enough to be seen, then leave.

  101. CubeFarmInmate#644*

    Is it a constructive quit if I’m leaving because of undiagnosed mental health issues? I’ve been really unhappy for the past year and struggle daily with motivation to get work things done. I’ve been moved through 4 projects in the past three years, the latest I was told last minute there’s been a budget cut so we’re transferring you 100% to this other project and firing the contractors to make room. The new project is a disorganized mess that was behind schedule with serious technical issues before I joined and now my boss, normally 100% hands off (hate that), is 100% micromanaging (even worse) because he’s under pressure, and we’re further behind schedule because me and new guy are ramping up which takes time. Add to that three years of Big Business joke raises that don’t cover inflation (phone it in? 2%; work 60+ hrs/wk? 3%) , a pay dispute last year (Big Boss holds grudges for years), multiple transfer requests shot down or ignored, and spending the last 18 months on Old Project that had just as bad issues (massively understaffed, defective tools, project scope creeping out of control, mgmt giving the budget office and upper mgmt the rose-tinted glasses treatment; cut came when they finally wised up) and I’m wondering if I’m depressed. Some company recognition was dolled out for working Old Project last year, however everyone but me received something (manager, product designer, worker bees in other functional areas, worker bee in the same area with same title as me who was a colleague, all recognized with awards), so I felt totally left out, burnt out, and used. I’ve needed to quit, change careers or jobs, do something for over a year but I work in a fairly niche area and ever other employer seems to want a fuzzy purple unicorn with a rainbow tail who farts glitter at the chance to be there and I’m not that (if you don’t match 100% you don’t get the job).

    If I did just quit, give my two weeks and walk without a plan, I don’t know how I would explain it to hiring managers without looking foolish, but I feel like I need a clean break to have time and un-burnout before making my next move. Any other career I’d have to go back to school, which is crazy expensive, and if that career becomes a dud then I’m stuck back where I started just with more debt. I’ve been trying to land something somewhere else in the same career-job combo I have experience with just to escape where I am but can’t get enthusiastic when interviewing as I’m not sure I want to stay in this field, having left it and come back out of desperation repeatedly the past decade (gotta pay bills). The grass wasn’t greener just a different shade of poop brown. Here, and every other work advice site, have said the same things when it comes to good reasons to quit, I usually check about 90+% of the boxes in the article. I just don’t know what to do next and don’t have time most weeks to focus on figuring it out, so I feel trapped. Debating therapy or a career counselor but not sure that would help me land a job in a different field that’s a better fit, preferably a career where transferable skills count so I can avoid needing a lot more training ($$$). What would help is being able to try a bunch of different roles for a few weeks each, see what working in other industries and roles is actually like day-to-day not reading dusty theory in textbooks, but I’m not a 20-something college kid anymore. Doing another bachelors and working back through entry level would mean I’d be mid 40s before getting to the same level I am now.

    Sorry if this is more of a vent. Any advice on escaping the prison that is my job? Has anyone done the career counselor or job coach ‘find your dream career’ thing and had it work (or are they all charlatans)? I tried a career change once before but it was a misfire that consumed years and a lot of money, want to get it right this time. Got enough saved I can go a year before worrying but I’d rather put the money toward a change than basic survival.

    TLDR, feeling trapped in a toxic environment with no easy escape and no clear exit plan yet, should I run for it then figure out the rest? Advice on figuring out the rest, for a mid 30s person?

    1. Sunshine*

      I don’t think any hiring manager would think twice about it. Gaps are more common than ever right now, and if pressed, you can say “I took some time off to deal with a health issue that’s since been resolved” (which is true!) or something along those lines. You have the savings – I would quit, take a few weeks off to rest, and then jump back into finding what you really want to do. A gap of a few months will not seem like a big deal. You can even just say that you had the savings and wanted to take some time off between jobs!

    2. ferrina*

      First, this place sounds like a nightmare. The money alone is demoralizing- add the hours and the stress and the rest….nope nope nope, with a side of nopesauce.

      Is this what your whole industry is like? If not, then I don’t think you need a career coach. When you look again, look for a company that treats its workers with respect. Be picky. Often its about finding a setting that jives with you rather than finding the dream profession.

      Usually I’d say hold on until you have a job offer in hand, but you also get to calculate the mental toll of staying here. If you quit, you don’t need to give a reason. Just “Here’s my notice; my last day will be X. Let’s talk about a transition plan.” If they ask where you’re going, you can say “I’ve got a few opportunities that I’m excited about” (i.e., anything that isn’t working here) or “I’d rather not say at this point; don’t worry, I’m not going to a competitor! [laugh] So how about that transition plan?” or “It’s not set in stone so I can’t give many details, but it’s an exciting opportunity that I can’t pass up” (i.e., the opportunity to get the heck out of here)

      Take a month or two, then when you get back into applying, you can say you needed time off to take care of a health condition that is now under control/resolved. Or to certain interviewers you can even say that you were suffering from pandemic burnout, so you decided to make a change (plenty of people are doing that, and more interviewers are receptive to that than were previously. But not to be used with all interviewers)

      You may feel the urge to explain or justify. Don’t. “No.” is a full sentence. “I’m resigning” is a full sentence.
      Good luck!

  102. Yellowjacket #3*

    I got into the grad program I applied to!!! Wooo!! It’s only a one semester program, but I will be moving to a different state while I do it, and leaving my current job, in about 3-4 months. Any advice on breaking the news to my manager, or helping to hire my replacement? I have a lower level admin/operations job that and I have a feeling they will want me to help find someone to fill it, which I am happy to do.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I would be matter of fact, give then generous notice, and move on from there.

  103. Prospect Gone Bad*

    Employees that are not overwhelmed keep “showing up” on days off for an hour or two. I keep saying not to do it. They’ve pressured me to give them credit for days like this in the past. I’m done with it, from now on, if someone shows up after taking off or calling in sick, I am keeping it PTO. I don’t get why people are doing this, especially since most have many banked days off. It’s making my department look bad! “Why are you making Sally show up on her day off?” “I am not, in fact James did all of the essential parts of her job already.”

    1. ferrina*

      If they are non-exempt, send them home! They may cause a legal liability (INAL, obviously consult with HR/Legal)

      And yeah, don’t give them credit for this. If they are sick, kindly but firmly send them home- “I want you to rest up. It’s not just personal, but business as well- rest well now, get back to 100% quicker, and the company benefits more from your work.” In fact, you can do this with vacation, too! “Studies show that workers that are able to unplug fully are more productive long-term. I love your current productivity, and I want to see what you’re capable of when you’re able to fully unplug!” (Tailor as needed for your personality- it sounds pretty weird the way I wrote it here)

      If there’s repeat offenders, remind them before they go on PTO- “Hey, I don’t want to see you back until Xday. I want you to fully unplug and relax.”

    2. Choggy*

      Make sure you formalize it as a policy of some sort so they are all aware if they take the day off they should TAKE THE DAY OFF. Pressuring you to give them credit for showing up an hour or two, hell nah.

      1. Prospect Gone Bad*

        I might need to do this. I feel like we’re almost too flexible, a good way. And some people are misinterpreting it to mean a pseudo flex time environment, which we aren’t going for. So I might notice someone take a really long lunch and then work remotely for an hour on their day off. I’d rather they just finished stuff on work days. It’s actually embarrassed me when they show up and send emails after they missed an important meeting or I told everyone they were out.

    3. OtterB*

      Also maybe make sure they aren’t getting texts or calls from coworkers asking them questions about a work project.

  104. Llama face!*

    Advice or tips on getting back into the groove of being a student after decades in the workforce?

    Context:
    After a long time in the workforce I’m starting a government-sponsored diploma program through a local career college. The format of the college is more like distance learning (everything done on the computer at my own pace and not in traditional classes with professors) although there is a physical campus to attend. I can do class work either at campus or from home. I do have a computer and home office so I plan to do a mix of both. Right now there is a huge amount of COVID in the community so I may do more work from home. The school does not have any mask requirements but has offered to set up an extra distanced workstation if I prefer. I would obviously remain masked at campus when I attend. I’ll also be attending school full time and not working for the duration so I’m on a fairly tight fixed income.

    Do you have any recommendations, advice, or tips on how to make my new student life successful? Any advice appreciated! The last time I was in school was in the pre-smartphones era so I’m pretty rusty.

    1. CubeFarmInmate#644*

      Think about all the mistakes and missed opportunities from your first time as a student and try to improve your experience this time. When I changed careers (before changing back 3 years ago), I went to office hours, tried to socialize before and after class with classmates (wound up tutoring a couple by semester’s end), and went out of my way to interact with people who have actually done the jobs on the career track I was interested in. I volunteered part-time when the opportunity came about to get more experience and check-in that I was on the right path. My first degree, I never did any of that, and so I spent two years doing BS jobs in retail that were totally unrelated to my degree and generally being miserable before a networking connection landed me a far better job in a totally different field.

      Take plenty of notes, mentally and physically, and build a support system if you can (friends and family to help out, teachers who have a hand in industry still who can send leads or help you network with pros, classmates looking for similar roles). I didn’t do that and got burned by it, second career I did and the leads my profs had led to interviews and fairs, though my first full time gig was elsewhere those experiences honed what I was looking for in a workplace and boss for that career. Treat it like work but in a fun way, every data point helps.

      1. CubeFarmInmate#644*

        Sorry just realized this us distance and virtual learning. However, you can still do a fair amount virtually through calls, video chats, forums, and finding local groups that focus on the field you’re moving to. Some, like those in the tech sector, use Meetup and rent-a-workplace locations to network. Your mileage will vary. The advice on checking in with yourself and trying to meet folks who do what you’re pursing still stands though.

      2. Llama face!*

        Thanks, CubeFarmInmate#644
        I have been thinking about my approach to schooling from my earlier education vs now and some things you’ve said are right in line with my thoughts: taking good notes (future work reference/resource!), treating this as enjoyable work, honing what I’m looking for in my future career path. On that last point, I am not pivoting to a new career (it’s still the same type of work) but this training will help me advance to a higher level of work and there will be opportunity to focus on a particular specialty at that point.
        I’m not sure how much, if any, relationship there is between fellow students/faculty/etc with this type of school but the networking aspect is definitely something to keep in mind as opportunity arises.

    2. Alice*

      Congrats!
      I don’t know exactly what a career college might offer in terms of resources like office hours/libraries/writing center/career office/advisors/affinity groups/chaplains/all the various support services that some colleges have. But whatever they have, check it out early in your time there. Maybe some will be not-great (we’ve all read Alison’s take on out-of-touch campus career centers), but the only way to find out is to explore.
      My other advice: if you are not clear on expectations, ask. That includes what other people (profs) expect of you AND what you can expect from them.

      1. Llama face!*

        Thanks Alice
        Your last point is especially helpful! I do have a tendency to try and figure things out on my own over asking the questions so I need to remind myself of this.

    3. Marvin the paranoid iphone*

      I was an indifferent and frankly lazy student in my undergrad, and my grades were hit and miss. When I went to grad school 16 years later I spent a lot of time thinking about how to do things differently.

      I made a lot of little changes that probably were more to suit my own quirks and not generally relevant. The two big changes that I’d recommend to everyone:

      1) Do all the reading, without exception.
      2) Don’t ever fall behind in schedule.

      It’s so easy with anything self-paced to say “oh this is a hard week, I’ll catch up next week”. But next week will be busy too! Each week has a week’s worth of study load; each week is designed to need a week of time. By telling myself to never ever get behind I saved myself so much grief and stress.

      Definitely second talking to the student centre or whatever office helps with study skills – they will be overjoyed to find a student with your attitudes! They can also help you with some academic-specific tech (for me it was Endnote which was a life saver for Masters level research citations) – they will know what tools are used in your college and program.

  105. ferrina*

    Why would a DEIJ consultancy suggest having an “apprenticeship” program for marginalized communities/first-in-family-to-go-to-college and a separate “internship” program for more privileged* applicants?

    My thought would be to improve the existing internship program to include more explicit instruction around unspoken expectations/provide contextual knowledge that white-collar families take for granted rather than create a separate program. What am I missing?

    *I’m not sure if “privileged” is the right word to use- most of the applicants are from white collar families and have been able to access strong corporate internship programs (very few have minimum wage job experience). Please educate me if there’s a better word?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think there’s a few reasons potentially to split the programs, in no order…

      * People from less privileged backgrounds might not have as strong of applications as those from privileged backgrounds, because they don’t know how to frame their experiences. So, they are at a disadvantage in a general pool. Even if you put in explicate instructions, it’s almost impossible to account for all the tiny unspoken things that get passed around in a dominant cultural group.
      * Having a program aimed specifically at these groups, means they are more likely to apply to that program. It’s more likely to be a smaller pool, so if you want to get someone from those backgrounds, then you will. So, if you really want someone from those groups, making a program specific to them guarantees you’ll get one. (Unless no one applies, but that’s a whole different issue.)
      * In general, people tend to hire those who come from the same background as them. This is unconscious bias at play. So, in a general pool, people from different backgrounds are going to disadvantaged in the general pool, even if their materials are as strong as other people’s. There’s a bunch of studies showing this.

      Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

      1. Generic Name*

        I agree with all this. You can have a specific program (I would call it an internship rather than an apprenticeship) available only to marginalized groups. And you can still have a traditional internship for everyone else (ie white dudes).

      2. ferrina*

        Thanks for these thoughts! Would two hiring streams that feed into the same program have the same affect?

        (Really good point about the resumes- I’ll have to keep that in mind as we go forward with the program. That might be a good point of interest for all the internship/apprenticeship/whatever we have programs)

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          I’d think so, but then you’d also need to reserve slots- so like 2 people will come from stream A and 2 people will come from stream B. I don’t know if there’s specific training for any group which would be helpful in your context that another group wouldn’t need. For example, our Uni has a program for all first-gen college students, but those from extremely rural areas have separate training on how to navigate grocery stores and buses, as they often come from isolated villages that likely wouldn’t have a bus system or a grocery store. We don’t think our students from urban places will struggle with that issue.

    2. Generic Name*

      Why can’t they both be internships? I had an internship with a program for students of color and female students to get experience in an industry that is historically white and male.

      1. ferrina*

        That was my reaction. It seemed….weird to call one program “internship” and one “apprenticeship” when they were both supposed to have the same outcomes (I’m clarifying that the two programs would have the same desired outcomes). And frankly, I think the more we call out differences in experience and the ways that that is an advantage/disadvantage, the better off everyone is.

        I think it will take a skilled hand to point this out, but we do have a trainer who has experience bridging those gaps.

    3. Internist*

      My guess would be that calling them something different would bring more clarity to the programs, if they want to attract different applicant pools. As others have said, if they want to attract more marginalized participants, it will be very helpful to have separate applicant pools.

      I am actually in an internship program right now that has people from a range of backgrounds, from very marginalized to somewhat privileged. While I would still count as a minority in the industry we are entering, I’m from a more privileged background than some of my fellow interns. I can definitely see an argument for separate internship programs as long as it’s a way to give significantly more support to people from the most marginalized groups. Putting everyone in the same group is not necessarily fair. For example, I have more of a safety net because my family is in a position to help me out financially. That means I’m able to focus on my internship more compared to those who are in financially unstable positions and have to hustle on the side. There could be a separate internship program where people get access to more cost-of-living grants and an option to live in company-provided housing or something.

      1. ferrina*

        Thanks! What other ways have you seen the needs differ? What has been good ways (or not so good ways) for meeting differing needs?

        I def want to make sure that we’re providing everyone the support that they need to succeed (knowing that that support is going to look different for different people), but our company also has accidentally tracked people before based on the program that they are in. I want to make sure that two programs are the best option for everyone, and not a new way to track people while high-fiving ourselves for “diversity”

        1. anonynonynon*

          Apologies for the long post! But this sounds sort of like a year-long program I did with a nonprofit after graduating college (going anon because this organization is likely identifiable by folks who are familiar with this program) – it was mostly tutoring work in underresourced schools. They had a general program, who would hire anyone, as well as a more specific “fellowship” program, specifically for male graduates of the urban school district we worked in (which in practical terms meant low-income Black and Latinx people — I know focusing on men sounds backwards from most DEI initiatives, but it’s because men and especially minoritized men are very underrepresented in elementary education, and there’s some research to show that young boys of color benefit from having role models/teachers who share those identities).

          This ‘split’ system was because part of the program’s mission was to increase the representation of men of color in the education sector, so running the program enabled them to make sure they were fulfilling that part of the mission: some number of positions were effectively guaranteed to be filled by men of color. In practical terms, I think they received some extra mentoring/professional development/networking programming related to being a man of color in the education field, hence the fellowship.

          I think the key here is that the general program wasn’t *only* for “privileged” people; anyone could apply, including those who were also eligible for the fellowship. This makes it feel less like separate tracks and more like a DEI initiative: if the “service year” program was predominated by women and white men (as is common in education-related jobs), they were able to specifically recruit men of color through the fellowship program. Alternatively, if someone happened to be, say, a Black man who had graduated from the local public schools, but was not interested in the extra PD work, he could apply for the regular service year position.

          So I think the question for your organization is what purpose is being fulfilled by having separate tracks? Is there a DEI need that is being filled by having some positions reserved for folks with marginalized identities, or are you sending applicants towards these separate tracks by default? What is the difference between the “internship” and “apprenticeship” in terms of the training/work/etc. being done? Do folks in the “apprenticeship” program receive some kind of extra mentoring relevant to the backgrounds that make them eligible for the apprenticeship in the first place?

          And if by “our company also has accidentally tracked people before based on the program that they are in” means that you are rewarding “interns” more for doing the same work as “apprentices,” the only difference being their backgrounds… then, BIG YIKES.

    4. Bob Howard*

      A big problem with a lot of internships is that they are unpaid or have very low pay. That is fine if someone else (e.g. parents) will support you and any dependants you have. In practice therefore it is only available to more “privileged” applicants.

      An apprenticeship program should at least pay enough to support you.

    5. PollyQ*

      It’s possible they have different end goals. Some internships are specifically meant to be short-term and not necessarily to funnel the participants into permanent employment, whereas an apprenticeship might carry more of an implication that it’s an on-ramp. There may also be a belief that the two groups might need different types of training.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yes, apprenticeships carry with them an assumption that they will lead to some sort of job. Internships don’t.

        1. ferrina*

          I actually asked about this and am waiting for an answer. Our internship is a feeder program for our entry level jobs, so I’m not sure how the apprenticeship would be different (unless it wasn’t feeding into the jobs? which would defeat the point of a DEIJ initiative?)

    6. Observer*

      A few thoughts, overlapping what the others have said.

      Apprenticeship implies a more job training and job placement like approach. For many people in lower income demographics, that’s going to be attractive. Even if the programs are exactly the same, you re definitely going to have more parents in the lower economic group who are going to “hear” apprenticeship and be more open because they see it as a more direct route to gainful employment.

      Given the implications of the two terms, I’m wondering if the DEI consultant is actually looking at a different structure for the programs and different intended outcomes. Pay, different mix of hands on work vs theoretical framework, more / different mentoring are things that come to mind. Also, what are the expectations at the end of the program?

      1. ferrina*

        Thanks! One of my first questions was “What outcomes are we looking for from the apprenticeship (compared to our internship program)?” and HR couldn’t answer. Our internship program is currently a feeder program into our entry level jobs.

        It would make sense if they were looking at a different program structure- maybe more financial support and a different training/mentoring set-up. I do wonder if “apprenticeship” would sound more attractive to recruits. But the flip side of that would be as they continue their career- “apprenticeship” is not a term that’s used in our industry, while “internships” are extremely common and can open doors.

  106. Dark Macadamia*

    Fellow teachers, can you recommend online PD sessions that have been really helpful? My area is middle school ELAR but I’m mainly looking for classroom management and social/emotional topics

    1. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

      I have been learning about SEL because of how it intertwines with access to higher education, and recently listened to a great podcast called The Dash. It is obviously not PD, but I find listening to experts talk about a thing they are passionate about gives me, like, development professionally, you know? PD-lite. Anyways, I recommend it.

      Additionally, Urban Assembly is one of my favorite organizations doing this work, and they often offer actual PD courses. There is only one available right now, but I am sure more will be added: https://www.urbanassembly.org/what-we-do/professional-development-courses

  107. Em from CT*

    I just posted this over at Carolyn Hax’s chat, but thought folks here might have advice too.

    I’m miserable at work. Two-plus years into a pandemic, I suppose it’s no wonder; we’ve been overworked and
    understaffed for a long time, and I’m doing the workload of multiple people. My boss has been very supportive, and is offloading some of my tasks; what’s more, she’s suggesting I take some regular half-days off to care for my health so I don’t burn out. Great, right?

    Except I’m just so *tired.* Nothing I do holds my interest; everything feels like a slog. (So not only am I overworked, I’m overworked doing tasks I don’t enjoy that don’t hold my attention.) I’d quit in a heartbeat if I had savings, but I don’t. So instead I’m looking for work and applying like mad… but see above re: being exhausted and burnt out; it’s hard to muster the energy for that, either.

    How do you know when quitting without a safety net is a good decision? And how do you get motivation back when you’re drained but need to keep doing at least the bare minimum?

    1. Colette*

      Have you taken any of those half days off? Can you make a point of doing something for yourself during that time (go for a walk, read a book – ideally, I’d say your best options would be both pointless (i.e. there is no task that needs to be accomplished) and outside, in a place you don’t often go)?

      Is a longer vacation an option?

      Personally, I’d want to be sure I had money for many months before quitting without something lined up.

    2. Chauncy Gardener*

      I agree with Colette and would also like to add (as someone who is also fried out of my mind) to try to reduce everything you’re doing to the absolute minimum. Stop or minimize household chores, unless they make you feel better. Only do the things that you enjoy and replenish you. Make sure you’re getting enough sleep. Take naps on the weekends. And please take time off and use it to BE off.
      I need to work as well, so I’m just trying to slowly replenish my well.
      Good luck and I hope this passes soon!

    3. Time's Thief*

      First take those half-days your boss is giving you. We’ve been through a pandemic, the world’s been nuts, and you were overworked before all this extra mental labor got added. Of course you’re exhausted and depressed. You’re human.

      Can you take a good, solid couple of weeks off? Your brain and body both need time to rest and will get it one way or another. Right now they’re getting what they can with their inability to focus on and overall exhaustion.

      Once you’ve rested then reevaluate where you are and what options you have. You might find you have renewed interest in your work or you might find that you’re beyond ready for something else. Either way, you’ll be in a far healthier place.

      For what it’s worth, my husband was exactly where you are and was able to negotiate a solid month’s sabbatical. It helped so much and he’s back to his job with new passion. I managed to avoid burnout by having several jobs go under and so didn’t get the chance to get burned out at any of them … but I wouldn’t recommend that path if avoidable.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      Look up Captain Awkward #450: How to tighten up your game at work when you’re depressed. Not all of the advice will apply because burnout is different from depression, but some of the advice might be useful to you. If you don’t want to read the whole thing, jump down to the “Self-care” section of the reply.

      You might also want to look at Captain Awkward #202: My job is making me miserable, but I don’t know how to quit. Again, not everything will apply but Captain Awkward does lay out a good action plan.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Both those are amazing Captain Awkward posts and were super helpful when I was in a similar situation.

  108. Time's Thief*

    People who’ve moved on from retail – how do you describe your retail experience on your resume? I managed a boutique and the good/bad is that I did everything so to list my experience would be a half page of various tasks. I created marketing materials, wrote budgets, organized special events with local non-profits, created training material, led children’s crafting parties, kept a very cranky database from imploding, and was HR, IT, and accounting while also providing customer service 8 hours a day. I wouldn’t pretend that I did any of those at a high level but I did my best, learned all I could, and am proud what I was able to accomplish before shutdowns hit our area.

    I’ve struggled to format that on my resume, struggling between listing too little and it sounds underwhelming and putting too much which comes across as trying too hard.

    Frustratingly, I can’t list accomplishments in the framework of “increased sales by X amount” because the boutique was in a city experiencing economic issues and just keeping sales even from year to year was a major accomplishment. I did that but I’m not sure “kept boutique from going bankrupt for another year” is quite what one should say on a resume.

    1. ferrina*

      I keep a master copy of my resume that has every bullet for every job. This first bullet is a overview of the main responsibilities, then the rest are accomplishments. This version is about 5 pages long.

      I then edit down the jobs & bullets based on the job I’m applying to- if it’s a Sales oriented job with no management component, then my Sales bullets go on and my management experience goes off. (I also save a copy of the resume version that I submit to each job- I have a folder for each job I apply to that has the job description that was posted, the resume that I sent them and the cover letter that I sent them. That way I know which info I gave to who)

      1. Time's Thief*

        Thank you, that helps me feel like my overwhelming resume isn’t actually overwhelming – it’s just the master copy!

      2. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

        Yes, this is what I do! If the job I am applying for is more artsy/creative, I will keep all the points about merchandising, window displays, marketing, social media, trend forecasting, etc. If it is more people-focused, I will include the hiring and coaching, the customer service aspects, and the community collaboration points. If it is admin focused, I will include the reporting, payroll budgeting, and cash reconciliation.

        Good luck! I worked for YEARS in retail and now, in higher ed, I am constantly told how unflappable I am. That’s retail, baby!! A parent can yell at me all they want about Little Johnny’s failing grade, and I am not bothered because I have worked Black Friday and Christmas Eve at a giant rich-person mall dozens and dozens of times! I have cleaned up human waste in dressing rooms! I have had to tell an employee that their jeans were *too* ripped and I could see their actual butt crack! Ain’t nothin’ gonna bother me about someone’s failing grade. Haha.

        1. Time's Thief*

          Thanks! I did a decade at a toy store in a rich person mall and OH MY GOODNESS there is nothing that another job can throw at me like a grandmother meltdown a week before Christmas because we don’t have Hot Princess Toy in stock and thus have basically murdered Santa in front of her grandchildren. I struggle with properly wording that level of unflappability in interviews without sounding cocky but seriously, retail gives you a master class training in staying calm and in charge no matter what chaos is ensuing.

          1. AnotherLibrarian*

            Worst day at a job I ever had- Toy Store Christmas Eve. I still recall getting yelled at over and over again. It was like a warzone.

      3. Yet Another Unemployed Librarian*

        I do the same with the master resume! I was essentially a solo librarian for a while, so I did all the things too. Maybe see if you can summarize that in one bullet point at the top that emphasizes how you were in charge of the whole thing? I can’t remember what wording I used right now.

  109. Anon job seeker*

    Finishing my master’s and on the job hunt. The amount of positions open is truly exciting. I have experienced ableism and sexism in my professional and academic life, and obviously want to avoid that going forward. While networking (and later interviewing), what are some good questions to ask that screen for implicit bias in the work culture?

    1. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

      I feel like the first thing to look for is “is this company speaking to inequity of any kind, in any way?” And if they are not, if there is nothing about equity or acceptance or whatever in their mission statement or their hiring materials, they probably don’t care about it and would likely only care about legally protected, overt, explicit bias in the work place (which doesn’t bode well for avoiding implicit bias).
      With that being said, I like asking about their DEI policy and seeing if that is reflected in their company or organization’s mission statement. If it isn’t even in the mission statement in some way, I assume that they haven’t fully internalized the DEI policies.
      If they have a dedicated DEI center or office, I check the salaries of those who work there if they are public (you can also google job positions that are filled to see if there are archived posts with the offered salary). It feels common that these positions end up being paid like they are a low-level non-profit, which again, is incongruous to the mission of DEI.
      And lastly: Ask what sort of changes they have made to be more equitable in the last 10 years. Most companies should be able to name *something* that has changed: the delegation of an ombuds, pay transparency, easier process for requesting different desks or chairs, conducting a DEI audit (and what was changed after the audit).

      All of that being said, there are definitely companies who say they are about ~*diversity and inclusion*~ but have never considered, like, “do our office chairs support people who weigh over a certain amount”. The difference is that a company who cares about inclusion, who wants to avoid all implicit or overt bias, would be receptive and responsive when offered criticism or questioning.

  110. Popcorn Sorter*

    For wfh/remote/hybrid working policies I’m curious as to what yours do (or don’t) say about childcare for those who are working parents. I’m tasked with developing one for my smallish employer and one of the hot zones is childcare requirements when working from home. We’re not in the US but I have seen examples where it’s stipulated that children must be in daycare/school/another alternative while working from home, or that wfh will only be considered for parents with children over an age where they’re reasonably self-sufficient if at home. We do have a couple of employees who have made no secret to other employees that they’re saving a fortune on daycare by having their toddler(s) at home with them whenever they do work from home…when many of these colleagues are paying to put their children in daycare. It’s becoming a divisive issue and I suppose our position is that remote working isn’t a substitute for school or daycare due to the nature of the work we do. I’m interested to see if other policies actually mention it or we’re monsters. (I should say of course there’ll be times when a child is sick or daycare is closed but I’m talking about the rest of the time)

    1. ferrina*

      I’m U.S. based and I’ve worked hybrid for two employers. Both had the policy that you must have appropriate childcare in place while you are working (so daycare for smaller kids). Small interruptions are fine, like if you need to take a break from 3:15-3:45 to pick up your kid from school, but then your kid would need to entertain themselves until you finished work for the day. (Or stepping away for a minute to help your kid start the next remote schooling program is fine; stepping away for 45 minutes to walk through the lesson with them is not okay).

    2. I'm Just Here For The Cats!*

      So I myself haven’t worked in a position where we were remote (except for covid when all normal rules went out the window) but this is what past employers and some friends of mine have had to do.

      You could not have any children under certain age in the house, or have any distractions including pets.
      If there was a child in the house there had to be a different adult that was not the employee in the house with them.

      I do think it really depends on the work. If someone wants to work from home and its not something that is going to impact others or is tied to a specific time (like answering or calling back calls) and someone wants to flex their work so they get more done in the moring when their kids are sleeping and then are more productive in the later afternoon because their partner is home and can help with the kids that should be up to the employee.

      I also think that if an employee knows that their kid doesn’t need constant supervision they shouldn’t have to pay to have daycare. For example my friend’s son has all year round school which means there are some weeks where he has no school. The day camp she enrolled him was going to be closed half a day. he was 9 but per policy she “wasn’t allowed to have her child home without another adult”. so since I lived next door to her I was the “other adult” and she gave my name saying that the kid was being watched by me (Yes she had to give the name and relation to who was watching her kid!). She knew that if she had him settled with a snack and watching a movie/ playing games he would be fine for the remaining few hours of her shift. So he was dropped off. she met him at the door while she was on break. got him settled and continued to do her work. She did data entry type of stuff so there was really no reason why she couldn’t have her well behaved son sitting in the room next to hers

    3. Dinwar*

      As a manager, I’d shut the divisiveness down as hard and fast as I could. It’s none of my business how you deal with childcare, any more than it’s my business how you feed your children or dress them (obviously abuse such as neglect is an exception and should be reported to the police). It’s nasty and will destroy your culture, and definitely isn’t saying great things about your employees. People make different lifestyle choices, with different costs and benefits, and none of us knows all the factors that go into someone else’s decisions to do or not do something.

      Second, whatever you go with, be prepared to lose people over it. You’re going to disrupt lives and make people angry, and some people simply won’t have the resources necessary to comply with your demands. Maybe that’s for the best–and I mean that honestly, sometimes it is! But it’s something you need to be prepared for. You need to have a plan to deal with losing people, you need to have budget to hire and train new people, and you need to have the moral certainty that what you’re doing is the right thing.

      1. Observer*

        It’s none of my business how you deal with childcare, any more than it’s my business how you feed your children or dress them

        Unless it affects their work – and it almost inevitably does.

        You need to have a plan to deal with losing people, you need to have budget to hire and train new people, and you need to have the moral certainty that what you’re doing is the right thing.

        That is true of any policy, and not just ones related to childcare.

    4. Observer*

      I think you need a policy that keeps parents from caretaking while supposedly working from home. So, if they have a 10yo who is developmentally on track, you don’t need to have in home child care, even if the kid is home. But if you have a 2 year old? You had better have someone to watch that child because you simply CANNOT leave a child that age on their own for any length of time, not even for “playdates”.

    5. fhqwhgads*

      Ours says “Employees may not be the primary caregiver for children under 13 years of age during work hours.” However, the pandemic rule is “look we know this is an impossible situation, do what you gotta do”. They’ve not yet revoked pandemic rules either.

  111. Not a proof reading goddess*

    So I’ve been applying to jobs … and… I just realized my phone number is incorrect. On ALL of the resumes I’ve submitted. I don’t know how many times I proofread to make sure email address/website were correct. Also phone but not as obsessively. I had 3 people proof my resume but…none of them caught the phone number. So now I’m beating myself up majorly. How do I move on? Practically speaking – with the resumes I’ve submitted. But also moving on from just beating myself up so very very much!

    1. M.*

      In my experience, most hiring managers are reaching out via email before phone. The phone call comes after you’ve established contact through email to schedule an interview, go through a phone screen, etc. Don’t beat yourself up! It’s an easy thing to overlook.

    2. Sunshine*

      Can you set up a Google Voice number that’s very different from the number on the resumes, then follow up and say “I just want to mention that I’m using a new number – please call this one instead of what’s on my resume.” And use that for any phone interviews?

      Then just give the real number when you get hired! I doubt anyone will compare it to your resume by then. Shady? Yes, but at least you don’t look like you made a mistake.

      2. Alice*

        I like this one. :) Maybe also call the number on the resume, see if it actually goes through to someone, and if it does tell the person, look, I’m sorry about this — if anyone does call you, can you pass the info on to me?

        1. Not a proof reading goddess*

          @Sunshine – not shady and absolutely clever! I’m deploying this tactic! And @Alice – why didn’t I think to call the number to see if it even works. They’ve already gotten at least one text that was supposed to go to me. (Someone who used a referral for me for a job used the # on my resume to reach out. That’s how I discovered it was wrong to begin with!)

    3. Hlao-roo*

      Set aside 5 or 10 minutes specifically to feel angry/disappointed/annoyed/sad/whatever you need to feel about this one last time. Maybe print out a copy of the incorrect resume and burn it to symbolize you moving on from this mistake.

      After your “feel bad about my mistake” time, if the thought bubbles up in your mind, tell yourself “I caught the mistake and all of my resumes going forward will have the correct phone number.” Say it out loud if you need to.

      And, anecdotally, all of the companies reached out to me by email first when I was job searching. So all hope is not lost, and if any of the companies that received the incorrect version of the resume do email you, make sure you send them your actual number.

      1. I'm Just Here For The Cats!*

        I like the idea of burning the mistake resume! Also, in my experience if they are using phone to call and they either get the wrong phone number or it doesn’t go through they usually send an email.

        OP, were there any applications or anything that made you manually put in your phone number? If so they probably wont even look at the contact info on the resume.

        What about your cover letter. Did you put your number correctly on there? I don’t know if this is good practice or not but whenever I’ve written a cover letter I have ended it with “I look forward to hearing back from you about X role. The best way to contact me is via phone at XXXX.”

        1. Not a proof reading goddess*

          You know – I did have to enter my number into their systems and I forgot about that. Just knowing that makes me feel sooooo much better! I don’t have my number on my cover letter – just resume, but I like how you end with your number in your cover letter too! Thanks!

      2. Not a proof reading goddess*

        I do like the setting aside the time, feeling the feels, fixing it and moving on! So far my coping strategy has been feeling horrible, being in denial and not actually looking at my resume to confirm. You’re tactics are much more healthy. Thank you! My Saturday morning plans are now: get up, have some tea, feel bad one more time, fix it!!!!! :-)

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      I once put the wrong phone number on a resume. No one ever noticed. I didn’t notice until I got an interview and saw I’d made the typo. In my experience, it won’t matter a whit. For all my phone interviews, I used Google Voice, because my phone reception in my apartment was bad. No one cared or I think even noticed. They’d always ask what the best number was and I told them. Please please let this one go.

  112. Samwise (or maybe not)*

    This might sound odd, but is anyone at the point of burnout where they are seeing some benefits to it? Perhaps I’m just trying to find a silver lining here, but I got burned out at work and while I changed to a new (and wonderful) job, I know I’m still feeling a bit flattened out.
    But some of the silver lining I’m finding is that I’m just not rattled by much anymore. Cranky person in front of me? Much easier to channel the Grey Rock approach. Need to address a behavior issue with someone? No problem, and my blood pressure barely rises. Maybe this is just deciding not to sweat the small stuff? Anyone else having this happen?
    If you’re wondering about the kind of job I have, I work in a public library. But this recent article is pretty close on a lot of things: https://bit.ly/3FoT0WX

    1. Sangamo Girl*

      Yes, because my depression has kicked into high gear. (I have a great healthcare team and we are working on it.) But even it is because of the wrong reason, it is good feeling like I don’t have to sweat the small stuff.

      So OP-take care of yourself! Practice self-care, work with your healthcare team, do whatever you need so that you don’t sink too deep.

    2. RagingADHD*

      For me, it’s not a burnout thing as much as a life-stage thing, but there is a huge benefit to having no more F’s to give. Best part of turning 40 was that I ran slap out of them.

      It’s very freeing.

      2. allathian*

        Yup, definitely a life stage thing. Maybe I’m just comfortable and secure enough in my life that I don’t really care what others think of me anymore. Sure, I’m professional at work and strive to do my best work, even when that often means that I need to prioritize, but that’s because doing so fits my self-image, so it comes from within and it’s not based on other people’s expectations.

        Liking yourself enough that you don’t need to seek external approval to feel good about yourself is very freeing.

    3. Frankie Bergstein*

      I wonder, Samwise, if it’s growth you experienced as a result of your burnout? The behaviors you describe in your post – e.g., grey rock-ing someone who is cranky – are really wise, adaptive behaviors.

  113. t-vex*

    I’m filling out my employee’s annual performance review and I’m not sure how to respond to the issue of being accessible. The fact is, she answers calls and emails at all hours, far more than I do myself or would every expect her to (with rare exceptions, most of our work can wait a day or two). I’ve told her that, and she tells me she feels better knowing the thing has been dealt with rather than knowing it still needs to be addressed. I know she suffers from anxiety so I’m sure this is true.

    So do I give her a high rating because she really is accessible at all times (i.e. exceeds expectations)? I don’t really want to imply that it’s a good thing, but I also don’t want to punish her with a lower rating for her strategies for managing her own mental health. What do I do??

    1. t-vex*

      (And to put a finer point on it, I manage my own mental health by NOT responding outside of work hours so I’m having a hard time removing my personal bias around this.)

    2. Time's Thief*

      Is she answering her calls/emails in a way that puts pressure on others to work in their off-hours or is it clear that she’s managing her time in a way that works best for her and encourages others to do the same? When she answers things is it in a way that’s helpful or does she miss things in rushing to get them done?

      If she’s not pressuring others to work while off and if she’s communicating well then I’d personally go with a high score but also make it clear that you’d also give her that score if she waited until the next day to do her tasks. That is, you’re grading on whether she’s answering her emails within, say, 24 hours. She does so you scored her appropriately. Another version of her that unplugged at 5pm and dealt with the emails/calls the next morning would also get Exceeds Expectations because it would be within 24 hours (or, again, whatever metric is applicable).

    3. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

      This might be a situation where you’d need to ask about the effects of this behavior. Is it creating a culture where clients or other employees are expecting this sort of communication timeline as well? Is it appearing unprofessional to clients who are getting emails from her at weird hours? And, are those weird hours 2 am on a Saturday or just 7pm on a Wednesday (because one definitely appears different than the other)?

      You may also want to talk with her about this again before completing the review, and ask specifically, “when you are responding to messages outside of business hours, is it coming from a place of anxiety? You’re a great employee and I trust your judgement completely, I just want to make sure that you’re making choices because you want to, not because you are afraid of what will happen if you don’t respond right away.” You can also emphasize that clear working and non-working hours will allow for her to have a more sustainable career, which is what you want – her long term success.

      Either way, I would give her a top review, and also try to come up with a clear framework of what success looks like for this particular area, in her position, going forward.

      1. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

        (With that being said, I respond to emails *immediately* during work hours if the email is about a thing I can do, or will do, or know the answer to. It isn’t an anxiety response, even though I am a person with anxiety, it is just because *I can* reply right away, so why not?)

    4. MsM*

      Give her the good rating, and suggest she incorporate self-care into her improvement goals for the coming year?

      1. Dinwar*

        I’d say this, along with some coaching on handling incoming obligations–not from a “You’re bad and need to improve” perspective, but more from a “You’re great, here’s an opportunity to be better” perspective. We all have areas where we can improve, after all, and discussing that is part of the point of these meetings.

        My suggestion, for what it’s worth: Have her take half an hour in the morning to go through the emails from the night before and figure out what her priorities are for the day. Have her write it down–I keep a notebook for that purpose, but you can have a form or something as well. This does two things. First, it trains her to work only during work hours. Second, it will help the anxiety demons keep quiet. Knowing you have a block of time specifically set aside on your schedule to deal with it helps you put it out of your mind. I’ve done this when my wife and I were having problems–I set aside time after work to deal with it, so at work I could tell myself “Nope, not thinking about this, that’s scheduled for 7 pm.” It lets you know you’re not ignoring something or just not doing it, you’re proactively managing your schedule and it’s just not time to deal with it right now.

    5. ecnaseener*

      Sounds like this is more a problem with the rating system not aligning with your opinion – it’s set up so that More Accessible = More Better, and you don’t really believe that. But presumably she is clearing whatever bar you would set for any other employee to score high, right? I don’t think you can penalize her for it, but you can definitely talk about it.

      1. Alice*

        I agree, you definitely can’t penalize her for it if so far all you’ve been saying is “you don’t have to do that.”

    6. I'm Just Here For The Cats!*

      Is there anything between meets expectations and exceed expectations? if not I would do exceeds expectations but if there is a way to make comments put something about not needing to be so responsive or something.

      does your email system allow you to set up a time to send emails? This might be something she could do to help manage her anxiety and/or if the odd times work better for her to send these messages. I would suggest having her write the message and then schedule it to send the next business day.

      If this really is a problem and you don’t want to mark her as exceeds expectations, have you had a clear conversation with her? Is she answering these emails because of stress and anxiety, and she feels better answering right away knowing the problem is fixed? If so you might want to tell her that because the other person is not available after hours the problem is not fixed and it would be better to have you disconnect at night and not respond until the next day.

      I also hope that this person is not hourly, because if she is she should be getting paid for that time.

    7. MacGillicuddy*

      How is “accessible “ defined? Does it mean any hour of the day? Evenings? Weekends? When on vacation? If you’re giving an employee a high rating because they’re available 24/7/365, what does that say about an employee em who says they aren’t reachable on vacation? Or one who waits to answer a non-urgent question until the next working day?

      If I were someone who sets appropriate limits on my accessibility, I would be really miffed to get a lower rating than the I-have-no-boundaries employee.

      I would not give this person a high rating for accessibility. What she’s doing is not really managing her mental health issue, she’s acting in these ways BECAUSE of her mental health issue.

      And if she’s non-exempt, she’s causing problems with how she’s paid, etc.

    8. WellRed*

      I think if your performance evaluations include accessibility, then I’m surprised you don’t have this problem with more employees. That seems so odd to me.

  114. Somewhere in Texas*

    I have a job interview scheduled for a few weeks from now. I am excited about this opportunity, but also terrified.

    In the meantime, I will be taking copious notes on my current position because I am the only one who does my job and I want to leave it in a good place.

    1. alt ac*

      Are we the same person? :) Same, except I just got the job and am terrified! Sending good thoughts your way..

  115. NewbieSPC*

    This is a pretty specific ask but I’ll throw it out there anyway. I’m struggling to find market value data on salary for a role I’m moving into. I just got my SAFe Program Consultant (SPC) Certification and plan to move into a role I’ve seen described as Enterprise Agile Coach (I’m shifting responsibilities in my current org rather than job seeking). Having trouble finding a good source of salary data for this specific role. Anyone have any ranges or a good source or title to search for someone doing work in line with this certification???

    1. ferrina*

      Sometimes professional organizations will have salary data out there.
      I’d also look at job postings for similar jobs. Take into account the location and experience of the posting, but find 4-5 of these and it will give you a rough range of what to look for.
      Normally I’d recommend sites like the BLS Occupational Outlook Handbook and Glassdoor and Salary.com, but this may be too specific for those.

  116. Jean*

    I’ve just been invited to a third (of four) interview at what seems like an amazing company for a really interesting job, which would nearly double my salary and offer incredible benefits (especially compared to the abysmal “benefits” I get now – five days pto total, which includes vacation and sick leave, and no paid holidays even though we are closed for holidays). I’m so incredibly excited, and trying hard not to count my chickens wish me luck!!!!

  117. Perpetual Job Seeker*

    At a final interview they tell you there will be a decision in 2 weeks. 2 weeks passes and crickets. In my experience this is a long time with no update and doesn’t look likely to get an offer. What do you all think?

    (Yes, I will follow up anyway!)

    1. I'm Just Here For The Cats!*

      I think wait another week and then follow up. Something might have come up that delayed them. The interviewer is sick, or they had more candidates to look at.

      I think alison’s advice is interview and don’t think about it much and make it a happy surprise when they call you back.

      Good luck!

      1. ferrina*

        I think you can do a gentle check in now (it’s been 2 weeks since the last interview). I’d usually go between 3 days and 2 weeks after the date that they told you you’d hear back.

        Agree with I’m Just Here For The Cats- try to not think about it too much (if it helps, assume you didn’t get the position and just have fun interviewing- that helped me, but I also like interviewing for fun).
        Good luck!

    2. fhqwhgads*

      That is not a long time in my experience. Whatever they tell you, assume they’ll take twice as long. Also, there is no need to follow up. If they want to hire you, they’re not going to forget to tell you. So unless your goal is to get a concrete “no” faster, following up serves no purpose.

  118. ecnaseener*

    Anyone have a good mantra for accepting the ugly slide decks you cannot change? I’m halfway through reviewing the absolute most hideous beige slides….need to stay strong and focus on the actual content…

    1. ferrina*

      I think of Rembrandt and overlay the subtle lighting shifts that he would have put into the deck. (I’m a Dutch Masters fan)

  119. Lady Dedlock*

    Thoughts on taking a position that offers more money for less interesting/sophisticated work?

    I’ve been working in higher ed for the past decade doing communications work for a research center. My current job calls on a lot of different skills (web design, writing, editing, communication strategy), is intellectually challenging, and contributes to an important mission. The pay is unfortunately just okay, and I’ve run out of room for advancement.

    I was recently contacted by a recruiter for a digital content management role in the finance sector. The pay range she quoted is roughly 20% more than what I’m making, with the possibility for bonuses, so I took the interview. From what I gather, the job is much more narrow than what I’m doing now, and somewhat less creative and strategically oriented. I haven’t gotten an offer yet, but I think I’m more than qualified to do the work.

    So I’m asking myself, is it worth it to take a step back in responsibilities for higher pay? I’m not sure I really want this job, but it’ll be very hard to turn down that kind of salary bump if I get an offer. If others have been in this situation, I’d appreciate hearing about how you thought through it and what you decided.

    1. SameBruh*

      I’m actually in a really similar situation myself.

      I’m in communications and do it all, as it were, when it comes to digital, web, video, event, and print publications, but most positions I’m finding open are either a step down and/or are really narrow in scope. These combined have me feeling like I’d be throwing away half a decade of hard-won skills and expertise if I accepted a more narrow position. I’m worried I’ll be pigeon-holing myself in something with no way back to more advanced work.

      However, I think the best piece to consider, outside of how helpful and rare a salary bump is in our field, is whether or not the new company is receptive to advancement. Do they encourage growth and have opportunities for you to take on new responsibilities in the role? In the end, if you can’t grow, you’re not going anywhere. If there’s room and encouragement at the new place, there’s hope to use your other skills in the future and continue to branch out.

      That’s all I got, I’m afraid. I’m going to have to make this decision too in the next two weeks and am pretty nervous. I think I’ll end up taking the new opening and hope that the cut in scope equals out to more opportunities with a bigger team and bigger name brand. Fingers crossed for us both!

      1. Lady Dedlock*

        Thanks for sharing. You bring up an important point about advancement opportunities at the new company. The person I interviewed with didn’t have much concrete to say about what success in the role looks like apart from getting the work done and didn’t talk much about opportunities for learning apart from absorbing a lot of new information during the onboarding process. Of course, there are plenty of people who are not great interviewers, so maybe there is a lot of growth potential! It’s certainly a bigger organization than the one I’m at now. But I didn’t really feel sold on the role as a great learning opportunity, so that might be part of what I’m responding to with my gut feeling of “I’m not sure I really want this job.”

    2. Pocket Mouse*

      Consider that if you take the job, when you’re ready to move on you can cite scope of work as a reason you’re excited about a job opening, and also cite successes from your current role to show you’d thrive. If the additional money would meaningfully improve your life, I’d consider it. No job has to be forever.

  120. ApplyApplyAppley*

    What’s the consensus on applying for a job at a company you’re already interviewing with?

    I went through all the rounds for a role in the for-profit side of a big name company, and am waiting to hear back if I’ll get the offer or not. However, another great role in the non-profit arm came up that I am equally fit for that is more inline with my pay expectations and title (the role I’m waiting to hear back on is a step down in both title and salary). Should I apply or is it generally bad form to apply for another job while waiting to hear back?

    My gut says do not apply, but I got advice from a former employee to go ahead, which just feels wrong. I don’t know if I’m over thinking this or not. This has been my only interview in two years of searching and I’m really worried about either not getting it or messing it up. I’m not ashamed to admit that while highly educated and qualified, I’m becoming desperate.

    Advice?

    1. MsM*

      Do the non-profit and for-profit arms share hiring/HR? If so, maybe you can reach out to your contact there and say you’re still interested in current role, but you saw this opening and would love to talk to them about that.

      1. ApplyApplyAppley*

        I don’t believe they do! They work in the same building and interact, but given that they use entirely different hiring softwares, I’m guessing they’re different. The contacts I have there are only people I’ve met in the interview process. My other contact is a person I know professionally who is the one who told me to just apply.

        1. MsM*

          I’d say go ahead and apply, then. You don’t have the offer yet, so it’s entirely possible you need to still be looking. And I’d think it’d show you really want to work there in some capacity.

    2. PollyQ*

      I’d go ahead & apply, and I’d guess that for legal reasons, the for-profit and non-profit arms share very little infrastructure. Even if it were two different jobs within a for-profit, I’d still say it’d be OK to apply for both. Only a very unreasonable employer would hold it against you.

      1. ApplyApplyAppley*

        The for-profit and non-profit arms have different HR as far as I am aware, though the teams do work in the same building and interact occasionally. I just worry about those teams talking and it seeming like I’m not invested or interested in the original opening.

        I’ll admit I overthink and worry about perceptions as I often mess up in complex social navigations like these.

        1. PollyQ*

          Thing is, you shouldn’t be that invested in any one job application. Anyone who’s hiring should realize that pretty much everyone who’s looking for a job is applying multiple places. They’re certainly not only looking at one applicant.

  121. Empress Matilda*

    I’m doing a thought experiment, in response to a thread on a workplace advice page I follow on FB. (Which is not nearly as good as THIS workplace advice page, needless to say!)

    The question was what to do about creepers contacting women on LinkedIn to ask for dates, say they’re beautiful, etc. Most of the responses were “block and report,” which seems the most obvious to me as well. But there are a handful of people saying to report the creepers to their employers if possible. So I’m wondering why. Who would you report it to, and what would you expect the employer to do about it?

    I’m imagining how this would play out in my workplace. Likely you’d send a message to the general info@workplace email, and you may or may not get a generic response saying “thanks for letting us know, we’ll look into it.” Then the message may or may not make it through to the person’s manager…and then what? At most, the manager would sit down with them and say “don’t be a creep on the internet.” And the person would promise not to, and that would be the end of it.

    If the person is being outright abusive, that’s a different story – but in that case I would suggest it be reported to the police rather than the person’s employer. So that brings it back to the question of what would you expect the employer to do, if the person is “just” being creepy?

    As I said, this is entirely hypothetical for me, and I’m certainly not going to wade in against the consensus on a Facebook thread. But I’m curious. Does this “report it to their employer” idea have any weight, or is it just something people say because it feels like Doing Something?

    1. I'm Just Here For The Cats!*

      Yeah, I don’t think that someone should report to the employer unless its something super bad. Like sending unsolicited nudes and the person is a principle or something. The thing is, the person might not even work at that employer. It could be an old account or it could be someone catfishing, pretending to be someone else.

      I say report to LinkedIn and block the creep.

    2. Sunshine*

      I think it would depend on how creepy the message was. It’s not a crime to misuse a social media network, although if it’s against the site’s TOS then of course they should be reported to LinkedIn (and blocked no matter what). But if the person was very persistent, crass, or abusive in some way, I think reporting it to their employer has some merit. On LinkedIn, each person is essentially a company representative to some extent, and can gain access to a wider “network” thanks to a company’s own connections. I would want to know if someone was using those connections to badger women.

      It’s similar to those “how’s my driving?” phone numbers on the back of a company truck. If someone is behaving badly with the company name in their profile, the company might not be happy.

    3. PollyQ*

      As a practical matter, I wouldn’t expect much to come of it in almost all cases. The exceptions might be if an employee already had a number of “strikes” on their record, or if a company as a whole was dealing with a perception that they were a bunch of creepers and decided that the last thing they needed was someone else doing it semi-publicly.

    4. Colette*

      I wouldn’t contact their employer unless they were in a position of power (i.e. contacting people when he’s hiring for a job) or emphasizing his employer in the messages.

    5. ecnaseener*

      Lots of employers have pretty strict social media policies – “if you identify yourself as a Company employee, you can’t post XYZ.” Who knows how often they’re really enforced, but it wouldn’t surprise me to hear that this caused a Serious Talk about how you absolutely cannot represent our company this way.

    6. pancakes*

      I’m inclined to say I’d only report it to their employer if their messaging was trading on their role somehow – offering favors in connection with their work, like an interview or something. If they seemed to be making a point of holding themself out as a representative of the company rather than just someone ineptly trawling LinkedIn for dates. If it’s the latter it doesn’t seem like a work problem so much as a personality problem.

      I’m also inclined to say, as a general rule, anyone wanting to report someone in these circumstances should be clear in their mind about what they’re looking for. Wanting someone disciplined and discouraged from repeating behavior like that by experiencing proportionate consequences is a worthy goal. Wanting to humiliate someone to the fullest extent possible, probably not. That’s not always going to be a tidy distinction, but the purpose should be clear.

    7. Ginger Pet Lady*

      I do not have time for that. I get 5-10 creepers a week when I’m active on LI and I cannot track down all their employers. Block, report and move on with your life.
      Also, if you’re looking for a date, DO NOT DO THIS. If you’re legitimately looking to connect *professionally* don’t just add me, send me a message telling me who you are and why you want to connect. If you’re looking to connect *personally* and you’re not someone I went to high school or college with and want to reconnect, scram.
      Because I do not add randos with unrelated careers. Especially men.
      (and dudes, save it with your “not all men” comments. Enough men do that we have to be careful.)

  122. I'm Just Here For The Cats!*

    Anyone who works at Univeristy. How was it like when your chair or director left? I’m in a smaller non-academic department and our director is leaving. They are great, but I am apprehensive. The hiring committee will be doing the first round of interviews soon, and then there will be on-campus interviews where the candidates will be able to meet the rest of the department.
    Are there things that I should communicate or things I should look for that might signal that the candidate is not going to be a fit for our office. I’m not on the committee but I’ve been told by my direct supervisor (the person under the director) that our feedback matters. I just don’t know what to do.

    1. Camelid coordinator*

      When I have interviewed people who would be supervising my unit, among others, I wanted to make sure they had a sense of our work. So you could ask their experience with supporting llama wranglers or how they approach their work with staff. Be sure to ask for examples of a problem they helped their team with. Without specific examples you may get something like “I just let people do their jobs” from someone who turns out to be a micromanager. Sorry I couldn’t answer this over the weekend, the site wasn’t loading well on my ipad.

  123. LilyP*

    I’ve worked from home full-time since 2018, and I recently bought myself a new fancy keyboard with intentionally clicky keys (google “cherry MX blue” and the manufacturer site has an audio clip of what they sound like). I’m going to be working from the office a lot this summer and I’m thinking of maybe bringing it in to my desk there, but I don’t want to be annoying. Obviously I’d ask the people sitting around me if it’s ok beforehand and I’d take it home immediately if anyone said it bothered them at any point, but I’m not sure if people would feel comfortable speaking up, especially since I’m relatively senior. Is there any way to make sure I’m really truly not bothering anyone, or do I need to preemptively nix the whole idea in the name of courtesy?

    1. Yoga Sloth*

      I’d bring it, see how loud it is for a week or so, and then ask someone you generally get along with if it’s too loud. It probably won’t be, unless you are typing very aggressively. :) I have a loud clicky keyboard and a pretty open office and it hasn’t been an issue, people have told me they really don’t notice it.

      1. Observer*

        I’d bring it, see how loud it is for a week or so, and then ask someone you generally get along with if it’s too loud.

        The reality is that most people are not going to say it’s too loud. Especially if the person is not as senior as LilyP.

        1. pancakes*

          Yeah. Particularly if it’s clear the idea is, “I know this thing is noisy but I’m hoping you’re all improbably not going to mind if the office is noisier now.” Asking beforehand whether something bothersome is going to bother people makes that pretty clear, I think.

    2. ferrina*

      Oh, please don’t. I wouldn’t feel comfortable speaking up- I’d either assume that you can’t control what keyboard IT gave you or that you need a special keyboard for health reasons. I wouldn’t assume that you just like the clicky sounds and would happily switch back if only I asked. Letting folks know can help, but if some folks like it and others don’t, then that one person would be the buzz kill.

      Maybe mention it in casual conversation, then see if anyone is interested in you bringing it in one day to see how they feel? Start with a one-day trial after talking to your coworkers- it’s much lower stakes (and if someone looks uncomfortable but doesn’t say anything, you can decide not to bring it in again without singling them out)

      1. LilyP*

        Thanks for sharing! The medical accommodation angle is something I hadn’t thought about. I’ll wait and see who’s sitting around me and how often they’re in and what the background noise level is but I’m leaning towards not even bringing it up.

    3. LDN Layabout*

      Mechnical keyboards aren’t suitable for open offices. You’re using something that deliberately creates an out of the ordinary noise in a shared space.

      1. Annie Moose*

        Yeah, I used to sit next to a coworker with a mechanical keyboard in an open office, and while it didn’t bother me personally, it was very audible, even from a distance. Blue switches are one of the noisier types, too. If you really want to use a mechanical keyboard in an open office, I would strongly recommend using a quieter type of switch. (Cherry MX does make some “silent” switches, although they’re a different style than the blues)

        1. LilyP*

          Yeah I low-key wish I had gotten the silent switches instead….I was just thinking about using it alone in my house, it didn’t occur to me at the time that I might want to bring it into the office. Although if it makes a difference, the standard keyboards our office provides are also mechanical, just without the extra “click”. But I think LDN Layabout is right, intentionally louder than standard = no-go

    4. WellRed*

      Please leave it at home. I sit at the opposite end, around a corner with the heating cooling system nearby and my coworker’s keyboard still drives not only me batty but my boss when she goes in.

    5. Dark Macadamia*

      I think bringing something specifically designed to make extra, unnecessary noise into a public space would be really obnoxious (and I like the clicky keyboard sound!)

    6. MaxKitty*

      Please don’t bring it to the office. It’s almost certain to annoy someone who won’t feel comfortable speaking up.

    7. Observer*

      Is there any way to make sure I’m really truly not bothering anyone, or do I need to preemptively nix the whole idea in the name of courtesy?

      If you are in a shared space, the answer is probably yes. If the others need to do things like phone calls and audio meetings a lot, then the answer is definitely yes.

      You don’t have to get a totally silent keyboard, but what you are describing is one of the worse ones – and it’s a lot worse in person than on the site.

    8. Marvin the paranoid iphone*

      I recently decided against the new CherryMX keyboard option available on some of the Alienware laptops precisely because of this reason. It’s a truly amazing keyboard for a laptop – but I think entirely unsuitable to bring into a class or seminar, many workspaces, and out of the question for a library.

      I do feel your pain because a proper mechanical travel is a joy to use as a fast typist. Just… not so much for others nearby. (I played videos of the Alienware standard keyboard vs. the CherryMX to my partner and they – after some prompting – agreed it would quickly get on their nerves at home, too.

    9. SunsetBlvd*

      Definitely leave it at home. What might not seem loud or disruptive to you may be totally disruptive to others. I have ADHD and something like that would distract me ENDLESSLY. It would also cause a lot of frustration because I wouldn’t feel like I couldn’t actually speak up about it. Partially for what other people have said, but also because complaining about the loudness of a keyboard just feels like nitpicking – especially if I didn’t know you had a special loud keyboard. It would make me feel frustrated that I was even getting frustrated over something so insignificant.

  124. The Jobless Wonder*

    I was thinking about a job that I lost once. One of the contributing factors to my dismissal was that I was a bad fit. The cultural expectation there tended toward being extremely (in my opinion) open about our personal lives. I’m just not that open. I do what I can to foster friendly relationships at work, but my coworkers aren’t generally friends.

    I’m going to pick through the archives to see what Alison might have written about this in the past, but does anyone have any “magic questions” that tend to give good insight to an employer’s culture during the interview process?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I did a quick search in the archives, and these posts might be a good place for you to start:

      “how to spot a bad boss — before you take the job” posted April 23, 2014

      “these are the best questions to ask your job interviewer” posted January 15, 2020

    2. Alexis Rosay*

      I would ask them to describe their work culture–do they talk about coworkers as friends or family?

      1. ferrina*

        This. Ask about culture and see what they say. If they focus on the social aspects, it might not be a good fit. If they talk about being project oriented and collaborative to meet business goals, that might be a better fit.
        Agree with Alexis Rosay that “we’re friends!” or “we’re like family!” are red flags.

    3. The Jobless Wonder*

      Thanks to those of you who’ve replied, and to those of you who might still.

      At the time, this employer wasn’t using “we’re like a family” language but I may have seen something like that in a later job posting. I don’t remember now if I asked about culture explicitly (something I’m a little afraid to do, for whatever reason). Either way, I didn’t pick up on it then. It wasn’t until I’d been there several weeks that I began seeing a lot of red flags.

      For the record, the job was a mismatch too. What they thought they needed (and what I could do) wasn’t what they actually needed (and I couldn’t give them that). Neither party understood that during the hiring process. It was a tough experience all around.

      The place I’m working now is amicable, but there are boundaries. There are reasons why I’ll leave eventually, but the culture is good.

  125. mreasy*

    I am SVP of brand & comms at my company, and we have recently brought on a new marketing leader. She is also an SVP but I am technically peers w/ her boss because I lead a dept and so does he. She seems clearly to be trying to take over my department, which provides some of the design & other content her team uses (whether directly asking for it like other depts to or because they repurpose it for their campaigns). She is trying to dictate workflows to use for requests, projects, and even telling me things my reports need coaching on, without knowing their background and why something may be slowgoing for them. I’m definitely not the only person/team the trying to dictate things is happening to, but because our two teams work closely & my reports create assets on her team’s request, she is really trying to tell me what my team should be working on, with this attitude that she clearly knows better because of all her marketing experience. Meanwhile, I have a lot of marketing experience in our specific industry, as well as a ton of management & project management experience, and I’m quite good at my job – at least, I was, until this person started making me hate it. I have mentioned to her boss but I believe her boss thinks I’m just an overly sensitive complainer. Maybe I am, but I don’t think so. I have lost any energy I once had to push back against her so I am just deferring to her ideas I don’t agree with because it’s not worth a fight. I hate to complain about a dynamic and go-getting woman leader as I have been tone-policed massively in my career and even lost opportunities because people (men) didn’t like my “attitude.” I’m at the point where I’m looking for another job and the toll this is taking on me must be showing in meetings and other interactions. I’m just so tired and this is making me not do a good job at my job. I just don’t know what to do.

    1. Purple Cat*

      This sounds really frustrating, what does YOUR boss say about the situtation? You only mentioned talking to her boss.
      Otherwise, it sounds like you have to have a clear managing expectations conversation with her and her boss. Outline what you think the roles and responsibiltiies are, and where her’s end. It’s probably just an issue of a new person trying to “make a big impact” and will likely fizzle out, but you don’t want to give her too much power and give up the ownership of your group.

    2. WellRed*

      I’d approach it as she must not be clear on who leads what and have a friendly but firm conversation with her. Doesn’t matter if she’s the Supreme Marketing Mistress of the World, it’s your department and she should keep her eyes on her own paper.

  126. Striped Sandwiches*

    Microsoft Teams – anyone part of a vibrant community there?

    I’m responsible for making a new Microsoft Teams channel for a group at work and my boss wants it to be a vibrant community of sharing info, problem solving, networking etc. The idea is that it becomes self sustaining rather that me do everything. But all of the Teams I’ve been part of seem to fizzle out after a few weeks.

    Anyone got any hints? I expect in the first few months I’ll be driving discussions but how do I keep that momentum going on a light touch way?

    1. Choggy*

      I’m very interested in the responses to this question as we are currently migrating my company to O365 and will be using Teams instead of GoToMeeting and Lync for meetings, chats, and collaboration. This is a whole new world for the majority of our users with a few who are new to the company chomping at the bit to use the technology to its fullest. Can you enlist some super users to be part of the process, especially if they are from different areas of the business, to get others on board? We are planning on doing this in my organization since they have the most knowledge around what would be of interest to keep the users engaged.

    2. Sunshine*

      No advice, just that I started cry laughing at the thought of anything Teams-related being described as “vibrant.”

      1. Striped Sandwiches*

        I agree. When covid started we got into Teams and shared info but it soon just turned into a place to post funny photos and then fizzled out altogether.

        I want to give it a try for a few months then if it doesn’t self sustain, suggest to my boss it’s a dud and we can the idea. But want to give it a proper try before throwing in the towel.

      2. Amber Rose*

        Me too. We have exactly one Teams channel that sees any use, and it’s the one for letting everyone know which projects are finished. And only like three people actually post in it.

      3. WellRed*

        Right?! Microsoft anything and vibrant don’t belong in the same sentence. We use slack for funny shares, etc., as well as work communication.

    3. LilyP*

      I think (a) you should identify the real practical/business need for this kind of collaboration (if one exists) — what are the actual problems that people will be helping each other with here and why do the existing channels of communication not meet that need? That makes it easier to make a case when you (b) recruit 2-3 people that are well-liked and influential to help you out by posting content or answering questions and encouraging others to use the forum for the first few weeks. And (c) you and/or your influencers should “advertise” lightly in existing related spaces, like team meetings or lunch and learns – people won’t be notified or checking it by default so you need some other channel to drive them that way in the first place.

      And if it’s fizzling after a month or so, don’t try to force it, if it was useful people would be using it!

      1. Alexis Rosay*

        Yes, this. It’s not really the platform, it’s the need. If people have a true need to communicate about something, they will do so in any usable channel. I’ve been part of enough failed Slack and Discord communities to know that the platform is typically not the main problem.

        With that said–is your workplace using a 100% Microsoft environment? If you are, Teams can be a great tool. If not, it can be a hassle. Teams isn’t meant to be used as a standalone tool–it’s meant to be used in conjunction with Outlook, Sharepoint, Office365, a Microsoft for business account, etc. I use Microsoft Teams at work, and there are plenty of very active channels with a lot of users, which no one has to be urged to post in because the content itself is valuable. But we’re in a 100% Microsoft environment so things tend to integrate really seamlessly.

        1. Striped Sandwiches*

          That’s a good point. There is def an element of forcing this on the group as my boss wants “networking” so this is part of my attempt to help them do this. Idk if the group even really wants networking. It’s one of those groups where your boss volunteers you to join so I’m unsure of everyone’s commitment level.

          1. allathian*

            If they aren’t committed to networking, they won’t use the channel and it’ll fizzle out eventually. It also depends a lot on the average workload of your employees. If getting through the to-do list takes all their time, they won’t have the energy or the motivation to do networking, no matter how beneficial it might be in the long run. They’re just trying to get through the day.

  127. Kayem*

    No question, just want to whine that I hate writing employee evaluations. It’s hard enough when it’s needs improvement or unsatisfactory, but even harder when they’ve met or exceeded expectations. I just want to say “Fergus did the things he was supposed to do and sometimes did them most excellently 10/10 would hire again.”

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      My boss literally just copies and pastes last year’s evaluation into this year’s and calls it a day. I would love to get a one-line review like what you propose!

    2. The OG Sleepless*

      Ugh, I know it’s a drag but please try to say something good about a person who deserves it. I quit a job a few years ago, and the last straw was a “meh, she’s fine, she’s always fine” review from my supervisor who reserved most of her mental energy for the flashier people.

      1. Kayem*

        I finally finished the review. So many of the categories were unnecessarily redundant because a lot of the duties cross over. But I did make sure to mention his achievements with special projects and everything he did beyond his normal job duties. Though I couldn’t recommend him for a higher role just yet as he needed to gain some more skills in managing, I did recommend him for other projects.

  128. Platypi*

    I recently accepted my first internship, and it’s an incredible opportunity that will position me really well for where I’d like to end up in my career… but it’s across the country!

    I’ve already been having a very difficult time trying to build a professional wardrobe as many stores have closed and it seems like the remainders haven’t shifted back from the WFH casual/comfy focus, so I haven’t been able to find good staple pieces and just have a few specific outfits that I can put on when needed. Now I have just a couple of weeks to build a full business casual wardrobe that I can pack into a suitcase! My parents haven’t worked in structured professional settings like this in a while, so they’re a bit lost too. I’m an East Coaster through and through and 70 degrees is the ceiling of my comfortable temps so I’m also worried about keeping a professional look while making sure that I don’t overheat in the Cali sun.

    Does anyone have any ideas for a good place to start? Places to shop, pieces to focus on, and even general packing tips would be fully appreciated!

    1. Sariel*

      Not sure about your budget, but LL Bean has some quality types of clothing that can be mixed/matched and they have specific wrinkle-resistant fabrics. I usually do better with flat folding of clothes (and then rolling/stuffing socks and underwear in shoes and along the sides of a suitcase).

      Not sure how you identify, but also, J. Jill has plenty of nice quality pieces (tops/pants/jackets) that are easy to make into different outfits. The fabric packs well (fold or roll) and I’ve used a lot of J. Jill outfits for work and interviewing.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      My first professional wardrobe I focused on having enough clothing for one week. Everything in Cali is going to be air conditioned, so don’t worry to much about heat. What I bought, I think, was three pairs of pants (you can wear pants twice) and five tops. If I were to do it again, I would get a few light weight cardigans to go over my tops. Places I shopped then and I still stop- Ann Taylor, Loft (sometimes… there stuff is hit and miss), Talbots, LL Bean, Macy’s, and QVC. There’s a line on QVC called Susan Graver and she makes a fabric called Liquid Knit. I have no idea why, but that fabric does not wrinkle. I have several twin sets in this fabric that I pack when I travel, because it doesn’t wrinkle. One patterned set and one solid, and you have four combos you can wear. Also, don’t underestimate the power of scarves and necklaces to change the look of an outfit. I would also not buy too much until you see what other folks are wearing. Cali is more casual than the East Coast. Good luck!

      1. voluptuousfire*

        ^^Also with QVC they have flex pay which can make the Susan Graver stuff a little more reasonable. Her stuff can be a little pricey but the 4 payments make it less of a dent in your budget.

    3. voluptuousfire*

      I recommend Old Navy’s luxe tshirts, the crew or v-neck kind. They come in basic colors and are very light and soft and would probably be good for a business casual office with a pair of dress pants and a cardigan. If you hit the clearance section, you can get them for pretty cheap. They can wrinkle but if its a dark color it’s hard to see. :)

    4. Haha Lala*

      Not clothing exactly, but get a hand held steamer! They make travel specific one that would probably be good enough for a full summer. Freshly steamed and unwrinkled clothes can instantly make an outfit look more professional.

      Also, can you travel with less clothing and plan on buying some when you get there, once you see what everyone else wears? That might let you make the most of your suitcase and give you time to decide what you need.

      Have you asked the company specifically about dress code? I’d hope they’d give you some clear definitions and and examples. “Business casual” can vary from office to office, let alone across the country.
      Maybe ask if there’s an entry level/younger employee you can run some questions by? You can ask questions about what weather to expect, what people in the office typically where, and what else you might need that would be hard to find once you get there. I’d just recommend asking clear, easy to answer, not overly personal questions. The whole point of an internship is to learn more, so just consider this the first experience point!

    5. MaryLoo*

      If you find something appropriate that you like and that fits well, buy multiples in different colors.

      Especially for trousers. But also blouses/shirts.

      Are you female presenting? Tank tops are handy for under lightweight sweaters and shirts, because you can wear the sweater or shirt unbuttoned if the office gets hot.

    6. Yet Another Unemployed Librarian*

      They can be expensive, but I have a few things from outdoorsy stores that actually make good business casual and travel super well. I got a dress from REI that is totally work appropriate and is impossible to wrinkle. Title Nine (I think they only have what they label women’s clothes) is another one I like although I wish they had longer skirts.

    7. PollyQ*

      A note about the weather: Where in CA will you be? If it’s near the coast (as opposed to inland), the weather will almost certainly be cooler and less humid in the summer than anywhere on the East Coast. In fact, if you’re going to be in or near San Francisco, it’ll be downright chilly, so take that into account.

  129. Please Mark This Confidential and Leave It Lying Around*

    It’s late, but this has been cascading all day and it’s getting so annoying. I know the “Happy Mothers Day all you moms and mom-figures!” is meant well. I do not want to be a scrooge. But being a mom in the workplace is actually a huge liability, we should all know this after the two year pandemic/childcare emergency we have been in and continue to be in, and just give it a rest people.

    1. WellRed*

      My week ended with a small flurry of this on slack. Sigh. It will not happen on Father’s Day weekend.

  130. chairperson of the bored*

    From another post: I’m on a volunteer board for a software user group. (Incorporated in CA, USA, if that’s relevant.) Currently there are almost no structure or rules about who should or could be on the board. There is a term limit for President but not for any other position.

    It’s all unpaid and they are always desperate for volunteers, so while the articles of incorporation set out how to hold elections, in practice no position is ever contested and many are left vacant.

    Else-post people suggested things like term limits for all positions; DEI principles; rules for situations that could give rise to conflicts of interest.

    In practice the group doesn’t have much money, doesn’t charge much money, and a community of practice around enterprise software doesn’t have much of a mission. Do you think any more rules or structure would be helpful?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      ” community of practice around enterprise software doesn’t have much of a mission.”

      I have a stupid question. What does this mean?

      I’ll start. Do you have a mission statement? Does everyone understand what they are doing and why?

      My thought here is you can write all the rules you want. but if people do not see the importance of the effort then all is lost.

      Next. The service you provide, is it meaningful to people or is it hit and miss? Again a variation on the above, if you are not providing a service for people that is meaningful there is not point to making more rules.

      Last thought. Can you find similar dedicated npos doing similar thing successfully and adopt some of their better ideas as your own?

      1. chairperson of the bored*

        The group has a mission statement; apologies for poor wording. I meant the mission itself is limited in scope: it is exists for the benefit of people who use a certain software in their workplaces. The mission is about advocating for users with the vendor and offering the vendor a channel to reach their champions and supporters who would typically be ignored by their account managers.

        The services provided have declined over the years and the group is a sad remnant of its former self. The board has been shrinking and so seizes on anyone showing interest in joining. Many board members are there in good faith and regularly donating their time; others seem there mostly for resume-building or business cards.

        In asking this question and thinking about this answer I’m realising that if I weren’t on the board I doubt I’d be paying dues as a member these days as the value provided is small. Not zero – but for a paid membership I’d want resources not otherwise available, and for example all the member webinars are now open to general viewing.

        Hmm, thank you for unlocking the realisation that I have some soul-searching to do about my involvement. (For full context I’m the OP of the question this week about an acquaintance blabbing in email.)

  131. Is it my turn yet?*

    Long story short:

    I work more than my two coworkers because they miss a lot of work and also just work fewer hours than I do (but still log full-time hours on their timesheets (we’re paid hourly). One works 8:45 to 4:00, and the other works 10:00 to 3:30. I work 9:00 to 5:00. I usually cover for them when they miss work. However, I got a puppy, and I want to start working like they do…. I’ve worked it out where I can work from home in the afternoons, but there still has to be coverage in the office. How do I push back on the expectations that I fill in when it’s what I’ve been doing all along?

    Long story long:

    I am by far the most reliable employee in my office. I rarely miss a day or even a few hours, unless I have a pre-scheduled doctors’ appointment. I rarely get sick, although I did have to miss work in December when I got Covid.

    I and the two other people in my department are scheduled meetings with clients daily. My coworkers miss a lot of work. One is a single mom, and I know that’s why she misses. The other, I’m not really sure why… She just misses a lot of work. It’s rarely scheduled, so they are booked with meetings, which I or my boss then have to do, in addition to my own meetings. We contract with a governmental agency, so we aren’t allowed to reschedule these appointments. I find this frustrating, but we get bonuses based on how much revenue we generate, and I generate the most, so I’m fairly compensated.

    We get paid hourly and are expected to work 40 hours a week, so I work 9 to 5 (and I get an hour for lunch). My single mom coworker works 8:45 to 4:00 plus an hour for lunch so she can pick up her kid but still logs full-time hours. My other coworker works 10:00 to 3:30/4:00 and still logs full-time hours.

    Okay, whatever, I’m a little resentful… but now I got a puppy. I absolutely have to take my lunch at the exact same time every day to go take my puppy for a walk. I also have to leave at the exact same time every day… so my flexibility in doing others’ appointments is going to have to come to an end.

    I also worked it out where I can have all of my appointments in the morning, then time to work on paperwork for three hours in the afternoon. I am also planning on working from home to do this paperwork. My boss initially cleared this, with the caveat that someone has to be in the office for appointments. He can usually do the extra appointments when my coworkers are gone, but he works at our other office once a week. If he’s out of the office and someone who has a 1:00 appointment doesn’t come… I won’t be able to just take on that appointment anymore.

    I’m a bit of a people pleaser, and I’m used to being the person my boss relied upon. However, my circumstances has changed because I have a puppy. I know a puppy isn’t the same thing as a child, but I feel like the accommodations my other coworkers have been getting for being single mothers/whatever reason my other coworker has for not working as much should also go to me. I still won’t miss near as much work as they do, but I might have to duck out for a few hours for a vet appointment, or leave a bit early to pick up my dog from doggie daycare.

    What do I do? How do I manage the expectations that I’m always here to do their work when they call out last minute?

    1. LilyP*

      My first thought is do nothing. Your boss cleared you to work from home, so if you’re working from home as agreed and he’s in the other office and one of your coworkers fails to show up for their meeting…why is it your problem? They’re the one who failed to show up.

      But you might want to go back and ask exactly what exactly he meant by “the caveat that someone has to be in the office for appointments”. Do you coworkers have agreed upon work from home times that you need to schedule around? Is he somehow assuming that you’ll be able to drop everything and rush into the office if (when) your coworkers flake?

      I also wanna note that not showing up for scheduled, not-reschedulable appointments with outside clients is extremely unreasonable behavior and I’m pretty surprised that your coworkers aren’t in big trouble over this already. I think you should be raising it as a Serious Problem to your boss every single time one of your coworkers doesn’t show and you have to cover.

    2. WellRed*

      Stop covering for your coworkers and do what you need to do for YOUR job, yourself and the pup!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      They are not working yet getting paid. How is this not payroll fraud?

      What I would do is simply say, that “I want my slice of the pie”, everyone else has this and that. I want the same consideration, period.

      I did this slice of the pie thing at one job where I was the only person working every. single. weekend. I proposed a rotation between us three senior people. I would have every third weekend off in exchange for being totally available the other two weekends. In that situation, I had two bosses, one really good boss and one so-so boss. Even the so-so boss saw the logic on this and agreed.

  132. Ed123*

    I’m going to a wedding abroad and I’ll be staying with a friend and thought it would be nice to stay for the whole week. Friend will be wfh. I have been working remotely since March 2020. I was thinking that I’d preferer to work for some of the week instead of using my pto(or unpaid leave). I couldn’t find anything about this in my remote work contract. I can do all my work and be available my normal hours etc. So that’s not a problem.

    I’m wondering if I should ask for forgiveness or ask for permission. My manager won’t likely know the answer or feel comfortable making the call so it will be escalated and I’m worried about it turning into a “thing “. I’m also worried that opening this can of worms will lead to stricter policies regarding domestic wfh. But then again it could be very awkward if I was to get busted. I dunno if I should just ask, if I should just do it or if I should just take the time off?

    1. Annie Moose*

      Is there any possibility of a legal complication? E.g. I work a job that sometimes involves government data, and I’m not supposed to be accessing it outside of the country. If that’s likely, then unfortunately I do think you would have to get clarification before doing it. (but in this case you would probably already know about it/it would be mentioned in your contract)

      Otherwise… I dunno. If you aren’t obvious about being out of the country (i.e. don’t tell all your coworkers you’re going to be working from France or wherever, don’t post about it on social media in a way that makes it obvious you’re working from another country!), the odds anyone will notice is pretty low.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Faced with this, I’d have a couple problems here. I am not good at covering, at some point I’d probably out myself.
      Additionally, I can be a “rip the bandaid off ” type of person. Better to confront and know for a fact where the shortcomings are then to try to guess. I hate the being in limbo thing. Hearing the answer I don’t want to hear is preferable than being in limbo and not knowing and then trying to cover it up.

      I think some of this boils down to how much of a risk taker are you?

      1. Ed123*

        That’s the question. I was looking at the flights and while doing it I was really confident with just doing it. Cause fuck it. Then I chickened out and thought that maybe I should ask. But the thought of discussing something like this with my manager and the ‘thing’ it would turn unto is a massive turn off. If I asked and she said no, I’d be totally fine but I’m worried it won’t be so straight forward. While in the other country I would be nervous that something about my computer would alarm the IT ( people from other departments do travel for work so I doubt this is really a thing) The odds of getting busted are very slim but I have no idea what the consequences would be. But it’s so tempting!

        Iwas also counting I would be able to take few days from my extratime and few days unpaid and then few days from PTO so then I wouldn’t run out of PTO too quickly.

        I know you lovely people of aam can’t tell me what to do but can’t ask collages so was wondering what would others do.

    3. DistantAudacity*

      Also, you can very likely run into visa issues and tax issues. Do you have or need a work or business visa for where you are going?

      Many tourist visas/business visas/visa exemptions may only allow participation in busniess meetings or trainings at most, not performing actual work (outside of checking your emails). Also there may be taxations issues, due to where the work is performed.

      1. Ed123*

        None of those. No need for visas and could legally work there for 6 months without any tax issues. Also, it would be 2-3 days so the odds of being busted are very slim anyway.

    4. Marvin the paranoid iphone*

      I face this issue: contract in the UK within the banking industry. They absolutely forbid anyone working outside their country of contract unless sent on approved business travel – no exceptions otherwise.

      I tried the reasonable approach:

      – immigration/visa? I am a dual citizen of the target country
      – taxation? Both countries are subject to a Double Taxation Agreement, I am tax resident in both countries, I report my income from each country as foreign income on my personal income tax returns in the other
      – regulation? My work in a bank is already subject to the regulation of every country the bank operates in; this does not depend on my own location
      – disruption? My manager has no issue with it as I’ve shown I can meet deadlines and be reachable even in wildly different time zones
      – IT geolocation law? My work is done by remotely logging in to a bank’s system so there’s an argument that my work is performed in the UK virtual machine regardless of where I’m connecting from

      Useless. There is zero interest in even reviewing my circumstances.

      What I recommend to you is what I’ve done:

      – total lockdown of all social media in a way that work colleagues cannot see anything
      – invest in and learn how to use a VPN solution so your connections look like they continue to come from your usual country
      – lie a lot as required

      You’ve stated that there are no immigration/tax/regulatory concerns and it’s only for a week. It’s easy to cover your traces technically. Everything will come down to can you lie convincingly and keep all evidence from being found by work?

      I’m assuming in all this that you will actually get work done. Is that realistic when it’s a short term destination wedding being extended for social connection? Is the stress and hassle worth it to save a few days of leave? If you can genuinely commit to zero disruption and as much engagement as you’d do when normally WFH then I don’t see there’s any genuine work reason not to. But you say you don’t think you could maintain the lie? Maybe best not to try.

      1. Ed123*

        I post a #tbt pic into my Instagram maybe twice a year so that’s not really a problem. I looked into getting a VPN last week but I can’t download it to my work laptop. I can use my personal laptop for work and sign in using my work id card to get access to work stuff. I don’t really have to lie about anything cause I rarely speak on the phone, we don’t have cameras on during our teams meetings etc. And my work is quite individual so can warily go by a qeek without talking to colleagues. It would be more like just not telling. The only thing I’m “nervous” about is if technology somehow rats me out. That’s the only thing that I can think of.

        I can be equally productive as I would be at home. And I could easily have shorter days that week (flexi time). I’ll be staying with a friend who will be working. I could take the days off and explore by myself, not a problem. But then that means less days to use later :D a lot to think about.

  133. CW*

    If your office were going to a four-day workweek, would you rather have Monday or Friday off and why?

    I will start. For me, it doesn’t really matter which day. I would be happy for a four-day workweek either way.

    What about you?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      Overall, doesn’t matter, it’s a 3 day weekend either way. Though Friday off sounds better for some reason. Maybe something about the weekend starting earlier vs going longer.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Friday. I hate Mondays off, because Sunday still feels like Sunday and then Monday also feels like Sunday and I get like no rest.

    3. Pocket Mouse*

      Mondays are paid holidays more often than Fridays. If it’s a Tuesday-Friday week, would those holidays be observed on Tuesdays, since they occur over the ‘weekend’?

      1. Gatomon*

        I worked at an office that did this; the people who normally had the day off did not get additional days off. They worked 8 hour days that week instead of 10 and received 8 hours of holiday pay. For those weeks, the 4-10 folks would come in at either 7:30, 8 or 9 according to a schedule management devised to ensure coverage. Our normal hours were 7:30 a.m. – 6 p.m.

    4. Annie Moose*

      Personally I’d rather have Friday off! My Sundays are generally “booked” (church + I almost always visit my parents on Sundays), so for me, Friday off would mean two straight days that I could use for, say, going away overnight on a more regular basis. If I had Monday off, my weekend would be broken up by Sunday and I wouldn’t have the benefit of two free days in a row.

      But of course this is very specific to my circumstances!

    5. De Minimis*

      Fridays off are always the best, as someone mentioned, they are like a bonus Saturday. Mondays off are like a bonus Sunday, so less desirable. I’ve never been able to view Sunday as anything but Sunday, even when I didn’t have to go to work the next day.

    6. Dinwar*

      After a year we’d reach a new mental equilibrium anyway, so outside of folks who have obligations on Sundays, it’s more or less irrelevant long-term. If this happens we’ll simply switch to hating Tuesdays, or TGIThursday or the like.

      I think the best solution is to give people the option. That way some people work Mondays, some people work Fridays, and people can still get things done. A big issue in my line of work (10+ hour days and travel Monday through Friday are the norm) is that people never have time to deal with issues during the week. We have to take PTO if we want to do any banking, or deal with insurance, or deal with routine medical checkups, or the like, because they’re only open on days where we’re not available. If we switch to a four-day week with everyone taking the same days off, we’ll have that same situation only with more days where we can’t do important things.

      Even better would be letting people take the days off they want. Normalize taking your “weekend” when you need to. This would allow people to adjust their work-life balance while allowing employers to remain responsive throughout the week. Don’t get me wrong, a lot of people will still take Saturday and Sunday off–inertia mixed with the dominant religious groups is a powerful force–but there are plenty of people who would take the opportunity to work those days and be off mid-week.

    7. The OG Sleepless*

      These days as an empty nester, I prefer Fridays. I had Mondays off for a long time when my kids were younger, and at that time it was really nice. You can kind of put the house back together and get a bunch of things done that piled up over the weekend. There are a lot of Monday school holidays and it was nice not to have to need child care on those days.

    8. ND and awkward*

      I’d actually want Wednesdays off. I had a timetable at university one year with nothing on a Wednesday and it made for a great “admin day” for housework or errands and allowed the weekend to be more actual downtime.

      1. allathian*

        Yes, same. I’d much rather work two two-day “weeks” with a day off in between than a four-day week. If that’s not possible, I’d rather have Friday off.

      2. Kate in Scotland*

        I work this schedule and it is amazing. I never want to go back to 5 days, and I’d be very reluctant to work 4 consecutive days. This is largely for medical reasons (both my bad eyes and my bad back benefit enormously from a day away from the desk) but I also find my work really benefits from the pattern in that I write a lot of complex documents that can improve by being put in a drawer for 24 hours.
        I started this work pattern during the pandemic so I’m only just starting to reap the benefits of scheduling medical appointments, shopping trips, and meet-ups with friends/ family who work a non standard schedule.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Friday. Lots of places are closed on Mondays such as the place I get hair cuts, some restaurants and some stores.
      This also allows me to gather the stuff I need for weekend activities.

    10. 653-CXK*

      I used to do a four and a half day workweek at ExJob – getting out at noon on Friday was terrific as I could start my weekends early. The tradeoff: that extra hour of work exhausted me, especially if I did overtime on top of it.

      I don’t think CurrentJob would allow four days as there are certain things that are due, but they may let me do the four and a half day workweek (either getting out early or starting later).

  134. De Minimis*

    May be a bit late for people to see, but I was wondering if anyone had advice about managing a team when you’re not super familiar with the nuts and bolts of what they do, to where you can’t really offer much in the way of advice when they run into problems. I’ve found myself in that position after my supervisor retired and a few other people left for other departments to where I was the only one left to supervise the team. I’m from a different technical background and have never really worked in anything resembling their roles, so I’m not sure how to advise them when they run into issues. We are short staffed in general so there aren’t really any other resources here for them either. They generally know their jobs but tend to throw up their hands when things don’t go exactly as they should [which has been happening a lot.] My former supervisor used to do the same job so he was well familiar with everything, but I don’t have that experience.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Oh that’s a tough one.

      What does your own boss say about this?

      It makes sense that if things are routinely going wrong that there is an overwhelming sense of hopelessness, hence throwing up their hands.

      Not much consolation, but I ended up supervising a group of people who, through no fault of their own, faced chronic problems in their daily efforts. I was familiar with their work and it was STILL a struggle. I hope that this tidbit helps to free you from the idea that you need to be thoroughly familiar with their tasks and somehow things would be better. This is probably not true. I’m sorry to say this.

      Where I started was I targeted the recurring problems and worked out some standard operating procedures for the recurring things. Encourage them to talk to each other or to discuss things with you. I needed my people to tell me what was happening just before the problem occurred. I could try to narrow some situations down that way. Some times we think we have to have answers but reality is that asking good questions will work.

      Some stuff was way out beyond my purview/ my watch, such as electrical problems that were interfering with daily operations. I had to get maintenance involved. Here my general tip is be on the look out for things that are NOT even your responsibility, such as poor internet or other similar problems. Pull in maintenance/tech people where appropriate.

      Another general tip I found was to make sure their tools (whatever they use regularly) are fairly up-to-date and reasonable for their purposes. I have a really stupid example. I had a boss who would buy crappy staplers. We had constant problems with staplers jamming- it was a waste of time and drove up frustration levels, as we used our staplers a lot. This sounds like “yeah, so what?”, but the problem with the cheap staplers worked into a recurring issue for some one in the group every few days. For some recurring issues, equipment upgrades are the answer.

      It’s okay not to know all the answers. It’s okay to ask them if they have any ideas on what is wrong or even if they have any ideas on how the problem started. I worked on creating a collaborative environment- which meant a number of things. I made sure people did not feel put down by anything that I said or others said. So there were no “dumb ideas”, I encouraged them to try things, especially when it was easy to undo the attempt if it played out to be not a good idea. Empower them to be more in charge of their own setting. This means I listened to their ideas and we would use their ideas as often as possible. Once they saw their ideas being used, they came up with MORE ideas. In the end they were collectively fn brilliant. But it took a bit to draw that out of them.

      This isn’t just about all the problems. This is about what happens to people psychologically when they feel every day is a battle. You have two parts here to repair- the feelings of defeat, plus the actual problems. This can take time. I did not see differences in my group until about 9 months after I started. But by the one year mark they were definitely in a better space. Some of the problems died back, but I also worked on changing their expectations that their day be problem free. I did this by acknowledging that we had on-going challenges and giving kudos when people faced a challenge and won.

      Honestly, from my perspective I found it very draining as well as rewarding. I had to ramp up my self-care and I had to make sure I went to bed on time, because there was that much going on each day. Make sure you are taking care of yourself, this will help you stay on top of things during your work day.

  135. Lucky*

    Help! I have a terrible boss. My team is 100% remote. We have a big boss and several smaller bosses who directly supervise a handful of employees. We restructured a few months ago and I am now stuck with the worst smaller boss. She does not respond to emails. She does not answer calls. She is not doing the things new big boss has implemented. I have to send her the same thing requests 2-3 times. Often I have to send to a another small boss to correct. I enjoy the work and my coworkers but she is impacting my attitude. The others on our team have the same issue. What do I do?

    1. Hen in a Windstorm*

      Can you approach her boss? Maybe you and your coworkers together? I would likely start with “not doing the things new big boss has implemented”, because I assume her boss would care about that.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I label my emails in the subject line, “second request”. That usually gets people moving.

      You could try asking her what you could do differently to contact her. Sometimes I put the deadline in the subject line, “Need to know before Tuesday”.

      The part that is worrisome to me is that it sounds like when she does answer the answer is not correct. I am not sure if this is what you are saying and if yes, how often it is happening.

      It does seem unfair that this other boss should have to do your boss’ work for her. Maybe in the end, this other boss will report your boss to the big boss. I am not there, so I truly don’t know but it may be possible that this other boss has some advice for you on what to do. Think about this option carefully before proceeding.

      If you try things and those things do not work, you may want to schedule a meeting with the big boss and ask them how they want you to handle the problems. This is a nuclear action, so you want to make sure you have tried as much as humanly possible before you do this. As Alison often says, you’d be best to go as a group or at least have several members of your immediate work group go together to the big boss.

  136. Fly by night*

    I have an upcoming international travel trip for work, and I’m wondering what people think of traveling a day or two beforehand. There is no firm policy on what to do; and my boss won’t have an opinion. I’d rather fly in a few days before, so I can acclimate to the 9 hour time difference, and it would be helpful to know the area a little before and check out the local office where we’ll be working. But that would mean flying on a weekend, so I’d lose a Saturday – I’d rather fly on Friday afternoon (on “company time”). The meetings are on Tuesday/Wednesday, so I’d have Monday to meet my local contact after getting used to the time difference over the weekend. Would others fly Friday? Or suck it up and lose the weekend? (Boss seriously will have no problem with the hotel cost either way, and the flight price isn’t much different for different days, considering it’s already so far.)

    1. Decidedly Me*

      How many work hours would you lose on the Friday? I’m doing something similar, though leaving Saturday, arriving Monday (time changes!), but first day of meetings is Thursday. I totally would have done Friday (it would have had me leaving work an hour or two early), but Saturday made more sense for a variety of reasons. I don’t think leaving Friday is a bad thing, but how early I’m leaving work is usually my consideration.

      From what you’ve said, I’d go with the Friday.

      1. Moo Boo*

        Another vote for travelling on the Friday!
        1) It’s a work trip, you should be allowed to travel during work hours.
        2) A 9hr time difference is no joke – give yourself the best chance to get over it before the meetings.
        3) Your boss doesn’t seem to mind.
        4) If you are really worried about missing something at work you can always check your emails on the Sat.

    2. WellRed*

      I don’t see it as losing a weekend if it’s a place you’d like to explore a bit. I frequently fly in a day or two early to explore the region and be well rested when it’s time to hit the work ground running.

  137. Moo Boo*

    Looking for a script!

    When I Google my name, the first thing that comes up is a webpage from the place where I did my PhD. This page includes an effing awful photo of me and some lame text about life as a student. I absolutely hate it because I found the PhD experience brutal and again the photo is terrible and even comes up in Google images. I also now work in a research adjacent field and don’t think this a great thing to pop up if any senior researchers look me up.

    I need to email them to take it down but I find it weirdly painful and can’t think of how to rationally explain myself. I know this isn’t the biggest problem but would appreciate some help.

    1. RagingADHD*

      Well, there’s the part where you introduce yourself, of course. Then something like:

      I wonder if you could do something that would be helpful to me in my current career? I find that this article and photo (link) are the top search result for my name, instead of my more recent accomplishments.

      While I’m naturally proud to be a (school) alumnus, I think it may give the wrong impression by highlighting my student experience instead of my professional experience. Would it be possible to take the article down?

      Then courtesy, thank yous, etc.

  138. Steve Austin*

    I am starting a new position later this month after a years in a truly miserable workplace. I am afraid that my past experiences will harm my future success. Can anyone recommend books or online resources to help transition the mindset when starting a new job?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      These posts may be helpful:

      “are you haunted by your last bad job?” from November 3, 2014

      “I don’t know how to get past my toxic job” from August 6, 2020

  139. beentheredonethat*

    My boss called a planning meeting via email and asked each person attending to bring 1 thing on a paper. It would take about 5 minutes or less to do so. Two of us did so. My boss was quiet for a minute and then rescheduled the meeting for Monday morning and stated, read the email and do what he asked. He came by later and thanked me for doing as asked. I have a previous commitment and won’t be at the next meeting. I spoke to him a few hours later and gave a suggestion for the plan. He thanked me and made a negative comment about my co-workers.
    Odd thing about this… after that I regretted not telling one of my co-workers my suggestion so they could look better.
    What do you think?

    1. PollyQ*

      Your colleagues are, presumably, grown-ass adults who are responsible for their own jobs & careers. Don’t worry about burnishing their reputations for them.

    2. RagingADHD*

      They could make themselves look better on their own with a ridiculously small effort. Why should you care more about their standing than they do?

      Passing them ideas behind the boss’s back doesn’t actually help them do a better job. It’s window dressing.

  140. cheeselightning*

    Where do you go if you need to figure out if your job is actually breaking labour standards or not? An employment lawyer? Are there labour standards consultants who can comment and advise you on specific situations?

    For context, the clerks I supervise were all hired a few weeks after my contract as an assistant manager began. They make more than I do per hour. I worked there for several years as a clerk prior to my promotion. According to my province’s labour laws, it looks like employers cannot pay someone less if they perform the same tasks (which I do) simply due to 1) time they were hired or 2) employment type (full-time, part-time, etc.). I think this may be what is happening in my case.

    I tried asking the labour board, and they said “while we cannot comment on specific situations, we can refer you to Article X of the Labour Standards Act…”. I get why they can’t, but I need to know if what is happening is just shitty or if it breaks the labour standards–and if I can get back pay. I don’t want to file a complaint if I don’t have to/don’t have sufficient reason to.

    1. pancakes*

      Who would be better positioned to advise you on whether your complaint would have merit than an employment lawyer? Where I live, that would be my next step, but labor with a u suggests you’re not in the US, so I’m not sure what other resources may be available to you. Do you have a union representative you can ask about this?

      1. cheeselightning*

        Great point. I’m in Canada, but our workplace is not unionized. The more I think of it, the more an employment lawyer just makes sense.
        I hope I don’t have to pay out the wazoo, but this has also been stressing me out for months. Maybe the peace of mind would be worth it, especially if it’s just, like, a 1-hour consultation.

  141. grammarian*

    similar: “Yourself” and “myself” used incorrectly, as in “Joe and myself drove all night” or “It’s a benefit for yourself and your family.” Misuse makes my teeth hurt.

Comments are closed.