I got fired for attending a conference that I wasn’t invited to

by Alison Green on September 25, 2024

I’m off today, so here’s an older post from the archives. This was originally published in 2017.

A reader writes:

I started working at my job eight months ago, not long after I completed college (thanks in part to your write-ups about cover letters, resumes, interview questions and job searching). A few months ago in the elevator, my manager’s manager and someone from upper management in another department were talking about an upcoming conference. The idea of the conference sounded interesting and at our next departmental meeting I asked my manager’s manager about being able to attend the conference. She said the company couldn’t send me to this conference.

I really wanted to go. This was for several reasons: (1) what I heard about the conference in the elevator sounded interesting, (2) I was trying to show initiative, and (3) It would be good for my career to attend something like that. I was bummed out about the company not being able to send me.

But a week later I was asked to assist someone from a different department. He had a broken foot and needed help carrying paperwork and laptops up to one of the meeting rooms on another floor. He told me he was swamped with trying to get everything ready for the meeting on top of signing up people for the conference and making all the arrangements. I offered to do all the conference so he could get the meeting set up.

I signed myself up for the conference along with everyone else. But I only signed up as an attendee from my company. I paid for the conference fee, the airline tickets, and the hotel room out of my own pocket. I didn’t charge anything to the company for myself, even though all of the other attendees had everything paid for using a company credit card. I also booked vacation time so I could go.

I was excited to go to the conference. But when my manager’s manager saw me there the first day, she was upset at seeing me there, even after I explained I had paid the sign-up fee and everything else out of my own pocket and had used my own vacation time. I admit now that I made a mistake because I didn’t know the conference was for directors and executive management in my industry, not for entry-level people with less than a year like me. My manager’s manager had to get special permission from the company to go because she isn’t a director yet but is next in line for a promotion when someone retires. After the conference organizers found out from my company that I am not in upper management, they asked me to leave and said my fee would be refunded.

I already paid for the hotel room and return flight, so I ended up staying there even though I couldn’t go to the conference. My first day back at work was my last one ever because I got fired. My manager’s manager was furious and so were her bosses. I know I messed up, but when I asked about going to the conference she didn’t say I couldn’t go; she only said the company couldn’t send me. I also had no idea it was a conference for upper management only. If I had known, I obviously would not have signed up, but she didn’t tell me and it wasn’t clear at registration.

I know I made a mistake and it was a huge embarrassment for the company when word of what I did got around the conference, but I never had any write-ups or trouble and I was a model employee. I don’t think it was a fireable offense and I was shocked they fired me. Did I mess up that badly or were they wrong? I want to know if there is anything I can do to fix this.

Well, you definitely overstepped. I can understand your logic in thinking that if you paid for yourself and made all your own arrangements, it would be fine for you to attend … but this was a business event that your company only invited select people to. It’s sort of like if your company was sending all the senior directors to Vegas for a retreat, and you booked your way out there and showed up too and figured it was okay because you paid your own expenses.

That said, you’re new to the work world and clearly didn’t understand how this worked, and firing you over it is a pretty extreme reaction.

That makes me wonder if anything else had happened previously to make them worry about your judgment. If this was one in a string of concerns, then their decision would be more understandable. Complicating matters, you wouldn’t necessarily know if that were the case; sometimes managers notice iffy things about someone’s judgment but decide that it doesn’t quite rise to the level of needing to address it, especially if the person is entry-level. So it’s possible that something like that was at play here.

I don’t think there’s anything you can do to fix this situation now, unfortunately. But there might be things you can learn from it. If you had pretty good rapport with your manager, one option would be to reach out to her now and say something like this: “I want to apologize again for my error in judgment in attending the conference without anyone’s okay. I genuinely didn’t understand that it would be a problem, but I do realize now that I erred. The experience has made me wonder if my judgment may have been off in other areas too since this was my first post-college job, and if so, I’d be so grateful for any feedback you can give me. I’m at the start of my career and I want to make sure that I learn from this, so if you noticed any other areas for improvement while I was working for you, I’d love your feedback.” That might not produce anything useful — but it also might, and it’s definitely worth a shot.

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{ 393 comments }

{ 393 comments… read them below or add one }

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          Initiative isn’t bad. Gumption in this context is overenthusiastic and often counterproductive initiative.

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          2. Orv*

            I always interpret “gumption” in the way it’s used in “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance,” which is pretty similar to how we use “spoons” now — that mental reserve that lets us take on difficult tasks, and that can be depleted by setbacks or replenished by relaxation.

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            1. tommy*

              to clarify the term “spoons” — it’s specifically for disabled people (including self-ID / self-dx), and it refers to the ability to exert yourself in any way — mental, physical, emotional — depending on what your disability is.

              if i’m talking about a type of exertion affected by my disability, i use the term spoons. if i’m talking about exerting myself in a way that’s not hindered by my specific disability, i don’t use that term.

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        2. AngryOctopus*

          Gumption is bad because it involves a knee jerk reaction scenario like this (the “but the conference sounds INTERESTING so I should be able to go” part). Initiative is good because someone who takes initiative would have looked up the conference and seen it wasn’t for their level.

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          1. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

            Dear Alison, Grant me the initiative to find and seize opportunity,
            The patience to avoid gumption,
            And the wisdom to know the difference

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    2. Foreign Octopus*

      I think about this one at least once a week. That and the boss who refused to let his best worker go to her graduation ceremony and she quit.

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      2. WeirdChemist*

        The one about the boss who refused to give birthday perks to an employee with a leap day birthday is the letter that I can personally never forget!

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        2. My oh my*

          Do you think that one was real? I don’t usually question that with this column, but that was one where I did a little. Such an odd policy!

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          1. Default*

            I can see someone on power trip doing this.

            The HR manager at my job is so stingy with benefits, you’d think the money is coming out of his own pocket!

            He tried to convince a colleague to not to take her unemployment benefits!

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            1. Don't Comment Much*

              I had a boss really push hard on not taking unemployment because of something somethign insurance that really cost the company a lot more money than I would be getting? Needless to say, I was not convinced.

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            1. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

              I honestly think the boss was just a stickler for the rules to a pathological degree.

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          3. Irish Teacher.*

            Bizarre though it was, I think it was real because I find it nearly harder to imagine somebody making it up than somebody actually doing it. If one was going to troll, I think somebody would probably come up with something that made some kind of sense.

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        3. Irish Teacher.*

          That one is the one that makes probably the least sense to me. Like I can at least vaguely understand why the boss might not give somebody time off even for a graduation. It’s cruel and short-sighted, but it sort of makes some kind of sense that she felt a young woman who grew up in foster care wouldn’t know how to advocate for herself and could be taken advantage of.

          But I can’t even get my head around the logic of the leap year boss. If it weren’t for the fact that people who have birthdays on the weekend get to take the Monday off, I’d still think it was ridiculous, but I could at least imagine a very rigid person thinking “the birthday or nothing” but as it stands, I just…can’t figure her logic at all. And the follow-up where she said something along the lines of “she didn’t miss out on anything because it’s not like it’s made a big fuss of when people take a day off.” Like…what? She still missed out on a day off.

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          1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

            You know, I’ve thought a lot about that letter and couldn’t come up with any kind of ‘logical’ (even if incorrect) reason either, but it’s just occurred to me that because Feb 29th doesn’t “exist” in 3 out of 4 years, there’s nothing (in her mind) to take a day off for, as the day just isn’t there. For other birthdays where they fall on a weekend or whatever it can be taken on the closest work day, because that day still existed. I actually do hear people moaning about leap years that they have to work an extra day in the year for the same salary, it’s sort of the inverse of that.

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            1. Justice*

              I always take a vacation day on Leap Day and try to do an adventure, something in town that I wouldn’t normally do. (This year I went to Chicago’s Ice Cream Museum.)
              It’s fun to treat an “extra” day as special. But the idea that one doesn’t have a birthday 3 years out of 4 because they were born on February 29th is truly bizarre. That LW was a piece of work.

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              1. COHikerGirl*

                Oh, what a fun tradition! Also, TIL there is an ice cream museum and that is going on my “must go” list for sure. Not on a Leap Day since I’m far from Chicago but some time!

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          2. Alisaurus*

            The thing with that letter was also that they GOT A GIFT CARD and I could never figure out if it was just the birthday PTO she missed out on or also that perk.

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      3. Worldwalker*

        And the cheap-ass rolls.

        Y’know, Alison should compile a “Best of AAM” book, with the wildest stories and selected reader comments. I’d buy it!

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      4. Cyndi*

        The one I think about a lot is the person who was going through all their coworkers’ garbage, sorting out the recyclables, and leaving them out in piles, and when Alison and the comments said “hey, it sounds like your workplace is legitimately terrible for other reasons and you’re fixating on this to cope, you really need to back off on it and then find another job for your own well-being,” the LW was furious and accused everyone of siding against them and not caring about the environment. I think they sent in an update that a HR person had tried to make friendly small talk with them and therefore HR was obviously conspiring against them.

        It was peak “this is an incredible trainwreck but also the LW is clearly in a really bad place,” and I hope they’re doing better now.

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    1. Observer*

      Yeah, I was wondering about that.

      I really hope they learned something useful and are in a good place now.

      I suspect that they may have had to change industries, though. Because word gets around in any case. And in this case word spread among a fairly large group of high level people. Oops.

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      2. Jen in Oregon*

        Same. I always wondered if she took Alison’s advice to ask for feedback from her (former) manager, and if so, what came of that. LW, if you happen to be reading this, I hope you are doing well!

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      1. alice*

        right but it would be interesting to hear if she ever contacted her manager and got feedback from them and what next steps she took in her career considering a lot of people from her industry who make hiring decisions were at that conference and probably knew about her misstep

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      2. Insert Clever Name Here*

        You know how sometimes Alison does an Ask The Readers about various topics, like “what was something you did early in your career that makes you cringe” and people comment about the absolutely ridiculous mistakes they made, and frequently end with something like “so law was definitely not for me, but now I’m using my degree as a museum curator and it’s awesome”? That’s the type of update.

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      3. Dust Bunny*

        Sometimes we hear back from people who go, “OMG what was younger me thinking??” and it’s nice to know they learned from the experience.

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        1. Hlao-roo*

          I was very happy we got an update from the “I fell asleep on the job — on my first day” letter-writer! The original letter was from 2013 and the LW wrote back in 2023 (10 years later) to say they have been professionally successful in a different field than the fell-asleep-on-day-one job. It’s a good example of a short I-learned-from-this-experience update.

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  3. High Score!*

    While an overstep, it’s not that awful IMHO. when I want to go to a conference, I first ask my manager. If they say that it’s not in budget or they can’t send me, the next thing I ask is if I pay my own way, can I get the day off instead of using PTO. That way, they know I’m going and can let me know if there’s an issue and I usually get the day off to go without using up my PTO.

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    1. Joana*

      What made it bad in this case is that the conference was specifically for higher-level professionals in the field. So OP wasn’t actually supposed to be there at all, paying their own way or no.

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      1. Joana*

        Not to mention that she took advantage of helping the coworker taking care of conference sign-ups to add herself to the list without permission. So while the focus seems to be on just going to the conference, there were a lot of ‘you shouldn’t have done that’s’ there.

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        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          That’s the piece for me that crosses the line. It completely circumvents the approval process, which is different than just being an attendee at say a general interest industry conference.

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          1. Joana*

            Right? Even if it was just a general conference that would be appropriate for OP to attend, the better thing to do when told they can’t send her is to actually ASK if signing up independently and paying her own way would be acceptable. By putting her name on the list, she told the conference staff that she was repping the company when she didn’t have the okay to do so.

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            1. Orora*

              I disagree about the general conference. I’m taking PTO and paying my own way to further my knowledge. If I don’t understand a word that is said, it’s my money and time to waste. However, I wouldn’t list my company on my registration since I’m attending for myself and not as a representative of my employer.

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          2. Everything Bagel*

            I’m questioning if OP did it this way on purpose. Slipping their name on the attendee list and paying their own way, and I’m assuming taking PTO for the time off without mentioning to their manager that they are also going to attend the conference on their own is suspicious to me. It seems they were planning to ask forgiveness rather than permission and it backfired.

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            1. ecnaseener*

              Yeah. Maybe it really was a well-meaning mistake, but taking the whole situation together — just so happening to volunteer to help that coworker with the one task that got LW access — it’s reasonable to wonder whether there was deliberate dishonesty involved, which explains the firing.

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              1. Seashell*

                Yes, I would think if LW thought this was legitimately appropriate behavior, they would have told their manager that Joe from Accounts needs helps with the conference, so they’re going to go to help him or asking if it was OK to take vacation time for that.

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            2. Lilac*

              I was thinking that too. If they genuinely thought that they were showing initiative by attending (and had misinterpreted “we can’t send you” as” we can’t pay to send you”), wouldn’t they *want* their manager to know about it? The fact that they didn’t tell their manager in advance suggests to me that they knew she’d say no.

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              1. NotSlimbutSometimesShady*

                Right? Who wouldn’t just have a follow-up ask to their manager of “hey, if I pay my own way, can company invite me?” That’s what crosses the line into fireable offense for me: it seems like letter writer looked it up, found out that the conference was by company invitation only, and then volunteered to help with the sign ups with an ulterior motive. Overall, super shady and who would want to work with them in the future if they edit company documents to benefit themself on the sly?

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            3. Ellis Bell*

              I think it simply didn’t occur to them that it would be a big enough deal for anyone to get upset about. Remember, they had no idea that you needed seniority to get in, they just thought it was a public space event, a bit like a ComicCon for people in the industry. However I do think it *looks* suspicious and think the company interpreted it as underhanded.

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                1. Nessun*

                  It also surprises me that the conference organizers didn’t know that this person wasn’t high enough level – usually I see title as a field for conferences, and it’s printed on badges, for ease of identification and networking. For a conference aimed at a specific level or higher, I’d expect it to be required, so they can show alignment with their goal. Not that it excuses the OP, but I’d have thought the conference team would monitor who was signed up.

                2. lemon*

                  It’s not that far outside the realm of possibility. At my first professional job, my manager signed the both of us up for an industry-related conference. When we got there, it was clear that everyone that management/leadership were the intended audience. I ended up being seated at a table full of directors and C-level folks, and am pretty sure I was the only junior at the whole conference (and funnily enough discovered afterwards that I’d put my pants on backwards that morning). So, even my pretty experienced manager didn’t pick up on the context clues of that event. Not everyone is great at marketing their event to the right audiences.

                3. Eldritch Office Worker*

                  Sometimes the way high level leadership is referenced isn’t immediately obvious to someone new to the working world, but you’re probably right.

              2. Observer*

                I think it simply didn’t occur to them that it would be a big enough deal for anyone to get upset about. Remember, they had no idea that you needed seniority to get in, they just thought it was a public space event

                Except that they *did* know that it was *not* a “public space event”. Because they knew that they needed company credentials to register. That doesn’t happen at comic con, or anything like that.

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                1. Meep*

                  The biggest conferences in my field literally allowed randos on the streets to sign up day of. I know OP was fresh out of college, but they definitely should’ve known better assuming they have been to a conference as many students do.

              3. Irish Teacher.*

                That’s my thinking too, especially if the person was very young. I can imagine as a recent college grad…well, not the part about signing up while helping out, but if sign-ups were publically available, I can imagine thinking, “I can’t say ‘could I go if I paid my own way’ because they’d think I was ‘sucking up’ or else angling for them to say ‘oh, maybe we would be able to pay for you after all,’ but if I just go and they see me there, they’ll really think I’m committed.”

                Now, in my 40s, I can see that as pretty flawed logic, but I’m not sure it would have registered to me as such in my early 20s.

                I think I would, however, have known not to sign myself up while helping out the person who was supposed to do the sign ups but I might well have asked him rather than the boss.

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                1. Kevin Sours*

                  I think if sign ups were publicly available this is an entirely different conversation. I would look askance at a company firing somebody for attending a public conference in their personal capacity on their own time. What puts this over the line is that even though they paid for it themselves they did not attend in their personal capacity (and, it turns out, they could not have).

                  And that makes it a pretty glaring error in judgement even if they didn’t realize it was for high level leadership.

            4. Dust Bunny*

              I’ve always assumed s/he did since s/he took pretty clear steps to stay under the radar. I just don’t think s/he thought it would be as big an overstep as it was.

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              1. Dust Bunny*

                This has big Comedy About Plucky Young Working Woman vibes. Women (usually; not always) characters in comedies get away with stuff that they definitely should not do in real life because it’s funny and everyone likes to see an underdog jump a few rungs up the ladder while they’re still young, cute, and hip. But that’s not generally how it works.

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            5. Ama*

              Yes, when the original letter ran I was a little more sympathetic to the OP (probably because I was at the time managing a just out of college report who would make some strange leaps of logic), but since then I have encountered a few people who seem to constantly have “innocent misunderstandings” that just so happen to give them an unfair advantage in a grant application or (very similar to the original letter) access to an invite only event that they were not on the list for, and I find myself a lot more cynical about how hard the OP had to work to “accidentally” sign up for a senior management conference.

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          3. RPOhno*

            It’s tantamount to falsification of documents. Depending on the industry, that can absolutely be a zero tolerance offense, especially if you’re new with no track record.

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            1. Productivity Pigeon*

              Yeah, that would not be okay at my former big4 consulting job.
              It would be an independence issue (im using that as shorthand for ANYthing that can give the appearance of impropriety.)

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              1. Productivity Pigeon*

                I was working with a client on something very important once and we were in a real time crunch. This was a military client so I for various reasons hadn’t gotten my client-approved laptop yet.

                The client needed to go to a meeting but gave me his login details and told me to log in and keep working on his computer.

                I was pretty junior back then so I actually ended up calling the partner responsible for that project and asked what I should do.

                She told me I could NOT do that. In this case, I would be violation not only our stringent independence and ethics rules, it would be a crime and it could cost us ALL projects with that client. And I would have zero plausible deniability. Using someone else’s information to (potentially) access national security information? EVERYONE knows that’s not okay.

                But I was still sitting there needing to do the work.
                I ended up being incredibly lucky, and the client came back early.

                The partner had some sort of discreet conversation with the client that I wasn’t privy too but I got a client computer soon after that.

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        2. Spero*

          Also that she added herself without their permission and then NEVER TOLD THEM SHE DID THAT. If she’d said in her next supervision meeting, hey I know you said company couldn’t send me but I looked at my finances and I can send myself so I signed up’ the company could have told her why it was inappropriate and cancelled before the conference, and she might have kept her job. What did she say she was doing on her leave request? What did she say about her plans for her own professional development plans during all the supervision meetings/check ins between signing up and the conference itself? Why didn’t it come out when they mentioned ‘oh x and y will be out this week for fancy conference’ and she never once said ‘oh I’ll be there too!’ She actively hid that she’d done this until she was there.

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          1. Joana*

            Others have pointed out that many workplaces don’t ask why you’re on leave unless it’s relevant later (like you’re having a surgery that will then require restrictions). But yeah if OP actually thought what she did was above-board, one would think she’d be mentioning it rather than sneaking around and showing up without warning.

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            2. Dust Bunny*

              My workplace doesn’t ask. Ever. They’ve straight-up told us we can leave that field blank.

              But this person had already been told that they weren’t meant to go.

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          2. Trash Panda*

            I mean to be fair, I rarely disclose what my leave request is for when I request time off. “I need off these dates” is usually all I say.

            My question for OP is she hid it…but what did she think was going to happen when her supervisors saw her there?

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            1. Happy*

              Sounds like OP thought they would think she was super dedicated and be impressed that she was willing to spend money and vacation time to go on her own dime.

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        3. AngryOctopus*

          Yes this. Maybe a stern talking to if you spend your own money and time (assuming the conference is indeed not intended for you). But using the company’s list to make it seem like they were approved is past the line.

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        4. Blue Pen*

          Yeah, that’s for sure the clincher here. I can totally see a scenario where the OP randomly overheard about a conference, decided they wanted to go and paid their way, but didn’t realize it was for upper-level management until they got there.

          But taking over this conference sign-ups piece feels manipulative, especially coupled with the OP being told the company would not send them. I’m sorry, but that statement is not so far off from “you can’t go” as the OP would like to believe.

          Is this a fireable offense? On its own, in a vacuum, no, I don’t think so. But if I were the OP’s manager, they would be on extremely thin ice with me and for a good long while.

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        5. Productivity Pigeon*

          I agree.

          Had OP signed up “privately” and everything else was the same, it would be kinda cringy but possible to understand when dealing with a very junior employee.

          But signing up fraudulently (I know it isn’t real fraud but I can’t come up with a better word.) … I would be upset about that as OP’s manager.

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        6. Jon*

          Adding yourself to the list is where the issue is, IMO. The rest can kind of all be forgiven, but you used access you wouldn’t have otherwise had to circumvent the normal channels. The appearance of that can easily be construed that you intentionally positioned yourself to “help” in an effort to gain access to this conference to create relationships with higher ups multiple rungs above yourself in the ladder in your company and the industry.

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      2. MistOrMister*

        Not only that, they did not ask anyone at their company if they could go. And took advantage of someone else needing help to sneakily sign themselves up. Those two things are what makes it a really egregious overstep and takes it from an honest mistake to, not quite nefarious, but not an innocent mishap in my mind.

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    2. but on the other hand*

      I think if the LW had asked their manager if they could go, they might have gotten a reasonable explanation. But they not only just decided to go on their own initiative, they took advantage of being charged with helping a temporarily impaired coworker and did it behind the coworker’s back. I can see how that would raise the issue to a firing offense.

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      1. Joana*

        They did ask, but not in a very productive way; they asked their grandboss in the middle of a meeting that wasn’t in any way about the conference. Lots of people on the original letter were like “Well if he’d just explained” but the only context in which OP asked wasn’t really a time to explain.

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        1. MsM*

          And also, did OP not even bother to read any of the information about the conference while they were busy signing themselves up? Because if I saw a bunch of panels geared toward high-level executives, I’d at least take a moment to pause and think, “Hm, maybe this isn’t for me after all.” (Or if there wasn’t any information available publicly, that should’ve been a sign that adding yourself to the invite list would be a bad idea.)

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          1. Joana*

            Yeah I’m not sure there even was information for her to find? She heard about it from some coworkers in the elevator and probably wouldn’t have even known about it otherwise. I get the feeling OP thought it was more like a convention than a conference, a place where there’d be some panels and a room full of people from her industry with tables set up.

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            1. Insert Clever Name Here*

              Surely there was a conference website that could have been googled. They were able to find out where to fly and where to book their hotel.

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              1. Joana*

                True, though it’s also possible that the info on where and when to go was with the sign-up document or however they did it. Either way, OP would have saved a lot of misery if she actually talked about it with someone. She’d either be told she didn’t qualify or it would be reiterated if there was material she had access to.

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          2. Observer*

            Exactly. To me this is one of the reasons why the whole thing blew up on the LW so strongly.

            Like, how did you NOT realize that something is up here, and you don’t belong there?

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          3. HonorBox*

            THIS RIGHT HERE!!

            The original letter was published in 2017 which is not far enough ago for conference information to be sent out in a pamphlet. I have to believe that somewhere in the information that was online there would have been enough to point them toward the fact that this was for senior staff…

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          4. Michigander*

            Yes, that’s what I was thinking too. She says she was really interested in this conference, but didn’t look into it enough to realise that it was aimed at upper management? That makes it sound like she didn’t do any research at all and just based her decision off of what she overheard in the elevator.

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          5. Pottery Yarn*

            The other piece that gets me is that OP knew who else from the company was going because they signed everyone else up, and it would’ve been pretty obvious to see that Junior Llama Assistant looks wildly out of place next to Vice President of Llama Relations, President of Llama Transportation, Executive Director of Llama Grooming, and even Senior Manager of Llama Communications.

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        2. KateM*

          Whcih means they didn’t ask their manager (but their manager’s manager). Wouldn’t these kind of things be in general better to be asked from your direct supervisor instead of going over their head, basically?

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      3. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        Using the coworker’s injury and workload that way makes me suspect that she knew she *couldn’t* just go to the website individually and sign up—because if she wanted to go badly enough to do all this, wouldn’t she have tried that first? And if she believed this was above board, why did she never even mention that her vacation time was for this and she’d see them there?

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        1. Everything Bagel*

          I made a similar comment above. The only reason not to ask their manager if they could go if they pay their own way is because they were afraid they’d still be shot down and they wanted to go anyway. they went through this entire event surreptitiously, possibly having to request PTO for the time and still not mentioning they’re going to the conference. That’s shady.

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    3. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      The overstep part was the double shot of OP specifically being told no and applying/registering as part of the company.
      One would be more excusable: I didn’t think to ask. When I saw the paperwork I signed up.
      OR
      I saw the event and registered as an individual, not affiliated with the company.
      But both happening just looked really immature and sneaky.

      Reply ↓
        1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          Agreed. That’s what I was trying to say with the applied/registered. I meant applied to the event, not to her company to be selected. The whole thing showed awful judgement. It was not a secret meeting of the Illuminati being hidden from mortals, it was a high concept executive event. Not worth blowing up one’s reputation.
          I felt it was like stealing a bottle of liquor from your parents’ cabinet and discovering it was simple syrup.

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    4. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I am interested in how the PTO process for this went. I’m not necessarily pro-needing to give a reason to use vacation time, but given the context it seems odd that the employee didn’t mention why they were taking time off. That conversation could’ve saved everyone a lot of grief.

      Reply ↓
      1. Bast*

        I’m not sure how LW company works, but at 2 companies I have worked at, it was all via an HR/payroll website to request time off. There was no section to list “reason” it was just that you were submitting a PTO request for “DATE to DATE” and you’d click the button to submit it and that was that. Unless you volunteered what you were doing with the time, no one knew.

        And frankly, I don’t think it’s a good idea to start having to volunteer why you want to use your vacation time. In some companies, this wouldn’t be an issue, but in others you’d get push back because “well, since you aren’t going anywhere, have nothing booked, etc., it really isn’t that important and is a waste of your days.” I put in for a staycation once and was excited to have some time to just relax and do nothing — only to get called in by my manager because one person got sick and another decided to cut out early for a hair appointment, of all things (that she had NOT requested off in advance). She thought because I “didn’t really go anywhere” it would be okay for me to just give up my day off and come in anyway. I declined.

        Reply ↓
        1. londonedit*

          Yeah, we don’t have to give a reason when we book leave through the online system we have. You just request the relevant dates and your manager approves them. I work on a small team, so generally my manager already knows that I’m planning to book a week off in November to go to Iceland, or whatever, but I wouldn’t have to give a specific reason if I didn’t want to. My boss usually asks if I’m doing anything nice, but I could easily just say ‘No, just wanted some time off at home’.

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          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            yeah — some of my team members tell me why they’re taking PTO, especially for longer stints, but it’s certainly not expected of them under any circumstances I can think of.

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            1. Irish Teacher.*

              My deputy principal actually cut me off and told me he didn’t need to know once when I was telling him why I needed to take a day off. (The reason I was telling him wasn’t because I thought I needed to justify it but because I was going for a medical test and wanted to give him a hint that I might need further time off if I got bad news, but I suspect he thought I felt I had to justify myself.)

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        2. Eldritch Office Worker*

          I definitely agree with you. I guess if they thought they were showing initiative it’s odd to me they didn’t make a point to volunteer it. Not to justify the ask, but to…show the initiative.

          Reply ↓
          1. londonedit*

            I expect, deep down, the OP knew she shouldn’t really have signed up on her own initiative. She probably thought it would be an ‘ask forgiveness, not permission’ situation and that when people saw her at the conference, they’d be at best impressed with her for taking initiative, and at worst they’d say ‘well, you’re here now, don’t do it again but you might as well stay’. Instead it turned out it was a conference for senior leadership, she was asked to leave, and the whole thing was extremely embarrassing – probably more so for her company and her bosses.

            Reply ↓
            1. Observer*

              he probably thought it would be an ‘ask forgiveness, not permission’ situation and that when people saw her at the conference, they’d be at best impressed with her for taking initiative, and at worst they’d say ‘well, you’re here now, don’t do it again but you might as well stay’.

              I agree with you. I really think that they had to know that they really did not belong there. But “what are they going to do once I’m there, anyway? And they will SO impressed by my initiative!”

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            2. The Rafters*

              She also remained at the hotel after being told to leave the conference b/c she’d already paid for that. Other attendees had to have seen her there. I’ll bet it was hugely embarrassing to her company and remaining at the hotel just added to that.

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        3. Everything Bagel*

          Yeah but don’t you communicate with your manager about the time you’re taking off even if it’s technically done through an electronic system? Even if you don’t share your plans, don’t you typically have a conversation where you say I’m going to be out on these days and I have coverage lined up for this, or something like that? In this instance, it’s hard to understand how this conversation was had at all without bothering to mention that you are attending the conference that you already asked about, unless you are actively avoiding them knowing in advance so they can’t stop you from going. how the time off is documented on your time card is not the point here, it’s the fact that no conversation was had at all about OP attending this conference after they were told the company would not send them.

          Reply ↓
          1. Jojo*

            Even though I have a good relationship with my boss, and often do mention what I’m going to be doing, I don’t always. It’s not really any of his business, and I’m pretty sure that’s how he views it. His main concern is coverage. (He’s a really good boss to work for.)

            Reply ↓
            1. Everything Bagel*

              In this case though it is completely sketchy because OP already asked about going to this conference, and should have assumed that she would see co-workers or upper management there! I just don’t think the typical way any of us handles discussions about vacation applies here considering the discussion OP already had with their manager.

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              1. Joana*

                I have some self-published books and most of the time when I request more than one day off at a time, it’s to go sell them at an anime or comic convention. I don’t have to put that reason and don’t, but often do talk about it with my coworkers because many of them have similar interests and might even be going to the con. In my case I don’t have to and am not expected to tell them, it just naturally comes up. I’d think, though, that if they were sponsoring some people to go to an industry-relevant conference or convention and I was going to pay my own way, I’d mention it to the ones going with the company. The fact OP didn’t definitely is one of the sketchier parts of this that makes it seem like she knew she wasn’t supposed to do it.

                Reply ↓
        4. Observer*

          And frankly, I don’t think it’s a good idea to start having to volunteer why you want to use your vacation time.

          Agreed. People do often share why they are taking off. But our requests do NOT require it, and I know of at least one manager who was told not stop asking, because there are a lot of reasons people might want to take off that they really, REALLY don’t want to discuss. And by asking, they were putting staff on the spot to have to explicitly not discuss it. (And this was after they were told that they can’t based decisions on time off based on reason for request, outside of exception circumstances.)

          Reply ↓
        5. Rara Avis*

          My online requests have to distinguish between sick leave, PTO, and conference time. They are paid out of different buckets.

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      2. Sneaky Squirrel*

        Even if LW didn’t need to put a reason to take PTO in the request screen, LW knew who was on the sign up sheet because they “helped out” with that task. You would think LW would want to at least say to their manager that they will see them there at the conference.

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        1. Hush42*

          But they wouldn’t see their manager there. It sounds like their managers manager was barely high enough in the company to qualify so I am sure their manager didn’t qualify. It says the grand boss needed special permission to even get to go. I would guess that the rest of the attendees from the company were their great-grand-bosses and higher. It doesn’t sound like she involved her direct manager at all, which is wild to me. If I were in that position and I really wanted to go to a conference I would have, privately, asked my direct manager. It would never occur to me to ask his boss if I could do something like that without first at least discussing it with my manager.

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        1. Everything Bagel*

          Exactly, I think that’s what people here are missing who are saying that they don’t divulge their PTO plans either. In this case, OP already had a conversation with their manager about going and decided not to share that they are really interested in this professional development and are planning to pay their own way to go. It was deceptive from the beginning is how I would look at it if I were their manager.

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    5. Tio*

      The main problem here was that they used an underhanded method to get into the registration. They were told no, then sneakily offered to handle the registration for someone and signed up under the company’s name *after being told no* without asking again or confirming. That is underhanded and a good reason not to trust someone with less than a year’s experience under their belt!

      If the signups had been open to the public – which from this letter and past experience it sounds like it wasn’t, there are plenty of member only things like this – then it was definitely a massive overstep. I probably would have fired them too honestly.

      Reply ↓
      1. Falling Diphthong*

        One of many points where this went awry was not drawing the correct conclusion from “Hmm, there is no way for the general public to sign up for this.”

        Reply ↓
      2. Juicebox Hero*

        That’s the worst part of it for me: she took advantage of her coworker with the broken foot by currying favor then abusing his trust by signing herself up on the sly. She was originally told no by her grandboss, and when that happens you say okay, not CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.

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      3. Irish Teacher.*

        And it makes it look like the LW knew the company wouldn’t have been OK with them going and that they intended to be insubordinate. I don’t think that was the case, but that’s because I read the LW’s account and have an insight into their thinking that their bosses probably don’t have. If I was their boss and just knew they’d been told the company couldn’t send them and they then added themself to the list when assisting a coworker, my interpretation would probably have been that they knew full-well they weren’t supposed to go and deliberately offered to help with the intent of getting access to the sign-ups so that they could sign themself up behind their boss’s back.

        And with that interpretation, I think firing makes more sense. I do have sympathy for the LW because it sounds like that was not their intent and it was more a case of a chance to sign up falling into their lap when they were asked to help their colleague, but their bosses probably thought it went more like “LW asks to attend a conference, is told no, finds out who is responsible for booking the conference and offers to help him out so they can go behind their boss’s back and sign up secretly.”

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      5. mango chiffon*

        And I wonder if that coworker got into trouble for letting OP “help out” this way. He had no idea she would have done something like this.

        Reply ↓
        1. Hobbit*

          I have the feeling that he never delegates anything anymore and when asked why he doesn’t he goes “let me tell you a story….”

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    6. WellRed*

      OP didn’t do any of that, though. They were kinda sneaky about the whole thing and I think on some level that was intentional.

      Reply ↓
    7. ThatGirl*

      It would have been kind for their manager to explain more beyond “the company can’t send you” to “this is for high-level people”, but I also wonder why OP didn’t notice any cues to that effect when they signed up for the conference.

      Reply ↓
      1. Tio*

        Probably the conference was not open for general public registration, so the bosses didn’t feel the need to explain further because OP had no avenue to enter this conference… unless they were doing the registration, which would have almost certainly be at a form fill stage, and attendance details would have been given before that. I don’t think OP bothered to look at the conference page or what it took to get there because “Hey, I can just sign myself up!” Yet another glaring error in judgement.

        Reply ↓
        1. ThatGirl*

          Sure. They weren’t expecting OP to sneak their way in. But it also seems like they should have realized that because there wasn’t a general public option, it wasn’t for them. (Of course at that point, given the sneaking, I guess that’s a purposeful blind spot.)

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          1. NotSlimbutSometimesShady*

            It’s also possible that letter writer was an employee whose poor judgement was shining through in other areas, so instead of responding afterwards with “it’s great you’re interested in opportunities like x, this is for senior management but y would be great for you when it comes around next I’ll recommend you for it” they were not interested in mentoring letter writer as an employee.

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      2. Miss Muffet*

        Agree – there was a lot of sneaky stuff that was definitely a problem, but it would have been good for the manager to say, that conference is just for folks at X level and above, so it’s something you can – and should – look forward to, but you’re not eligible for it at this point in your career.
        If they really only said “we can’t send you” and didn’t explain why, that’s a bit of a failing on their part. You can’t assume a first-job kid is going to read between the lines on something like that.

        Reply ↓
        1. I should really pick a name*

          What is there to read between the lines?

          It would be nice to know why the couldn’t send the LW, but it is absolutely reasonable to expect someone on their first job to understand what “No” means.

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          1. metadata minion*

            “it is absolutely reasonable to expect someone on their first job to understand what “No” means.”

            But this is something that actually isn’t always going to mean “no” in the way it turned out here. If there’s a library conference that I’m interested in and it isn’t in the budget for my workplace to pay for me to go, it would be completely normal for me to pay my own way if I *really* wanted to attend.

            Registering via the company behind their supervisor’s back was not ok, but “you can’t go to conferences unless your manager oks it” isn’t true in plenty of fields.

            Reply ↓
            1. Observer*

              If there’s a library conference that I’m interested in and it isn’t in the budget for my workplace to pay for me to go, it would be completely normal for me to pay my own way if I *really* wanted to attend.

              Not if registration is not open to the public!

              That’s the key issue here. The problem is not just that they didn’t realize that the no was a no. But that they DID realize and found a way to circumvent it.

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              1. Seal*

                As a librarian, I’ve covered some or all of the cost to attend conferences for most of my career. While all of institutions I’ve worked for have provided some funding for professional development activities, the amount varied widely and was often based on whether or not you were presenting or chairing a committee. While it did provide some incentive to be activity in professional organizations, the reality was that it was very common to have to pay at least something yourself (why that is the case and how detrimental that is to librarians and the profession is a conversation/rant for another time).

                HOWEVER, there are library conferences and meetings that only allow a certain number of people in very specific roles from member institutions to attend as representatives; even if I wanted to pay my own way to attend couldn’t. If anyone else from the organization managed to add their name to the list of attendees without permission and showed up unannounced at such a conference, there would be immediate and serious consequences, and not just for the perpetrator. When all the dust finally settled from the fallout of their actions – which would at the very least include written warnings and rewritten policies and procedures – the entire incident would become part of library lore and discussed privately in hushed tones throughout the library for years to come.

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            3. Yorick*

              Since the manager’s manager said “the company can’t send you,” it would have made sense for OP to ask if they could go but pay their own way. But they did it sneakily so no one had a chance to explain WHY they couldn’t go.

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          2. Ellis Bell*

            Depends if you’re coming at it from an employee or manager’s perspective. If you’re the employee, yeah, just learn to take no for an answer and don’t try to logic ways to get what you want. If you’re the manager, it’s really good mentoring to give some context when you say no, especially when someone is barking up a particularly inappropriate tree: “Oh, wow, no… that’s only for very senior people – my own boss only just got clearance to attend.”

            Reply ↓
            1. Lizzianna*

              I have to wonder how the conversation went – LW said she brought it up at a Division meeting.

              Because I definitely have employees who I’m the 2nd or 3rd line supervisor for who will stop me in the hallway or after a meeting and ask me a question with zero context when my brain is somewhere else entirely. Ideally, my answer in those situations would be more complete, but if I’m late to something or running to the bathroom or whatever, it might just be “no” with the assumption that they’ll follow up with their direct supervisor if they have questions.

              Reply ↓
              1. Ellis Bell*

                Sure, that’s fair; I think that’s why it’s on employees that it’s their responsibility to hear the word no, and the difference between initiative and overstepping. But if you can, where you can, I think it’s a kindness to give some context, especially if you’re walking away thinking WHAT did she just ask me? How on earth does she think that’s appropriate?!

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        2. Tio*

          You also wouldn’t assume a first job kid is going to go behind your back and register for the conference without approval and not tell anyone. Management said no, and that gets to be a complete sentence. A director-level grandboss doesn’t necessarily need to explain to every entry level person the exact details of conferences they’re not invited to!

          Reply ↓
          1. Seal*

            The fact that an entry-level person didn’t ask around to see who else was going and didn’t notice that those that were registering were much higher on the org chart than they were was a huge red flag for me. I’ve worked with far too many overly-confident entry-level people who insist they know more than everyone else and constantly complain or push back when their manager corrects their work or tells them no. Setting and reinforcing boundaries for entry-level employees is in many ways the best thing a manger can do to help that person’s career, even if it means firing them for something this egregious. Hopefully the LW knows this by now.

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        3. Worldwalker*

          No, but you can assume they’re not going to sneak around. If there was a legitimate way for them to sign up, they wouldn’t have had to get into the company sign-up process.

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        4. Observer*

          You can’t assume a first-job kid is going to read between the lines on something like that.

          There are no lines to “read between” here, though. The LW knew that the registration was not open to the public. They actually *sneaked* their way into the registration page. How does a functional adult not recognize that if you need to sneak your way in, you probably don’t belong there?

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      3. Observer*

        It would have been kind for their manager to explain more beyond “the company can’t send you” to “this is for high-level people”

        Maybe, although the context of the request makes it less likely for the manager to do that. And while “the company can’t send you” is not cuddly or warm and fuzzy, it’s direct without being rude or demeaning.

        but I also wonder why OP didn’t notice any cues to that effect when they signed up for the conference.

        That’s a good question. And I suspect that their bosses thought that the question did not apply. That is, they probably thought that the LW *did* see the clues and signed up anyway. Because just the fact of needing a company log in should have been all the clue they needed.

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      4. Sneaky Squirrel*

        It seems obvious to me that LW didn’t know what type of conference it was if they were asking permission to go to a conference intended for directors and executives. However, it’s also seems reasonable to me that the manager would have assumed that LW knew that because LW brought it up. I wouldn’t inherently jump to “my employee has no idea what this conference is” especially if it was brought up as a learning opportunity.

        Reply ↓
    8. Huttj*

      So, to me the part that made me gasp was

      ” I offered to do all the conference so he could get the meeting set up.

      I signed myself up for the conference along with everyone else. But I only signed up as an attendee from my company.”

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    9. londonedit*

      Yeah, the point is that she didn’t ask. Well, she asked once, was told no, and then took it upon herself to add herself to the list of company attendees. And she did that by underhand means, too – she inveigled her way into ‘helping’ a colleague and then used that to her own advantage, and to do something her boss had said the company wasn’t prepared to do.

      OK, yes, the boss could have made it much more clear and said ‘We’re not able to send you to that conference, because it’s for senior management and directors only’. But in reality, when your boss says no to something, you accept that. You don’t a) try to find a way around it, and b) essentially hack your way into the sign-up spreadsheet to get your name on there. That doesn’t show ‘initiative’, it shows extremely poor judgement.

      I do think it was harsh to fire the OP if it really was the first and only time they’d done something like that – but I can imagine the bosses were firstly really embarrassed, seeing as it rose to the level where the OP was asked to leave the event, and secondly unimpressed with the OP’s excuse that she’d paid her own way. That’s not the point – the point is directly going against something your boss has said, and using underhand methods to do it. So I can also see why the bosses, especially in the US, might have thought it was such an egregious misjudgement that it warranted firing the OP.

      Reply ↓
      1. Tio*

        Honestly I think the fact that she asked, was told no, and then did it anyway might actually be worse than if she hadn’t asked! It’s SO underhanded I don’t think I could trust this person again.
        Bad judgement dominos:
        1. Was told no, and did it anyway
        2. Did it by sneaking around and taking advantage of a sick coworker to gain access
        3. Didn’t double check conference details to figure out they weren’t the audience
        4. Didn’t inform anyone of what they had done until they showed up
        5. Embarrassed the company at a professional event

        Reply ↓
        2. Anonym*

          Agree with all of this. I do have some sympathy with the OP for not knowing the normal practices around conferences. Being new to the work world, I can understand assuming that conference are just open to whoever wants to go, but that’s not always the case, and company representation can be important and sometimes political. Of course, ignorance of that does nothing to excuse the sneakiness.

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        3. Ellis Bell*

          The thing is, she would always have known that she would be visible to people from her company who were also there. That strikes me as more clueless than underhanded. Though I think it was functionally underhanded… if that makes sense? OP did something in such a way that her bosses couldn’t prevent it, and they embarrassed the company with their poor judgement by not seeking the proper permission. I can see their manager thinking “What will you do next without giving me a heads up?”.

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    10. Liz*

      I think the issue was that it was embarrassing for the company to have an entry level person show up for a senior level conference, and I highly doubt the letter writer really researched the opportunity if she didn’t know that was the case.

      Reply ↓
      1. NotSlimbutSometimesShady*

        I think that the conference was likely industry invitation only, so it looked like the company had invited an entry-level employee.

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    11. Medusa*

      OP didn’t ask, though. It’s perfectly normal in my opinion to ask if you can pay your own way to a work event if it’s not possible for work to send you. But OP apparently didn’t do much research, because if they did, they would’ve realized it was only for high-level people.

      Reply ↓
      1. I Have RBF*

        When I hear “The company can’t send you”, it means “it’s not in the budget”. My immediate follow up would be “Can I just pay my own way?” That follow up question should have gotten the response “No, the conference is for senior managers only, by invitation.” My response to that would have been, “Oh, that wasn’t obvious from the conference description.”

        Then again, I would have looked up the conference website beforehand so I would have everything I needed to justify my going, and would have discovered it was an invitation event for senior management. LW did not do their due diligence, IMO.

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    12. Observer*

      If they say that it’s not in budget or they can’t send me, the next thing I ask is if I pay my own way, can I get the day off instead of using PTO.

      Well, yes. But the LW did *not* ask. And they had to know that there was a tie to the company choosing who should go, because they couldn’t get to the registration from a public web site. So they used *someone else’s credentials* to essentially sneak their registration in.

      As I said then, it’s hard to read this moderate cluelessness. Because either they knew that they were not allowed to be there but tried anyway, thinking that once they were there no one would make them leave. Or they just spent a really significant amount of money on something they had absolutely no understanding of. Now, I don’t care what people do with their money. But when someone does something like that you have to wonder about their judgement and decision-making process. Combine it with the devious behavior (offering additional help in order to get into a private system that they should have no access to), and I can see why their boss and the whole hierarchy was reacting so strongly.

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    13. Person from the Resume*

      What “High Score!” mentions is fine.

      What LW did wrong is not research to find out the “conference was for directors and executive management in my industry.” If she had tried to sign up on the publicly available website (and not through her company list) she would have found that out. Instead she deviously “helped” someone in order to place her name on a select list, and throughout the whole process never noticed that the list of people from her company were Directors only.

      Also LW probably should have mentioned she was taking PTO for this to her own boss. Not truly necessary, but it reads like LW was being secretive in order to surprise people with her initiative.

      Honestly the LW lacked critical thinking skills on this all around. Didn’t think it through or do any research.

      When you add the element the conference organizers asked her to leave because she was not a director which no doubt left her company embarrassed and having to explain why they failed to follow the strict attendance policy, and they had to admit a junior employee lied and schemed to get there, she needed to be fired.

      Reply ↓
      1. Observer*

        Honestly the LW lacked critical thinking skills on this all around. Didn’t think it through or do any research.

        Yes. This really stood out to me. Their behavior was devious and untrustworthy, which is bad. But it was also incredibly stupid. They really don’t seem to have to their most basic due diligence, nor spent any time at all thinking about what they already knew.

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      2. Guacamole Bob*

        I agree that the fact that OP was registering the attendees from her company and didn’t notice that they were all fairly senior and second-guess her plan based on that is fairly odd. That should have been a flag that it wasn’t a case of “we can only send three teapot analysts based on budget and this year isn’t your turn”, but instead a situation where OP would be out of step with how the company was representing itself and at the very least needed to ask more questions.

        I can understand that OP was new enough to the work world that it wasn’t clear, but if you’re going to have the company name on your badge, you need to have the backing from the company to attend even if you pay for it. We have cases where people pay to go to a conference or other industry event on their own (usually a cheap local one open to the public) and we always give our comms team and other relevant folks a heads up that they will be there, and be sure that attendees know if/when they can speak on behalf of our agency.

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  4. Stella70*

    I remember this letter. I still want to give OP a hug. What she lacked in experience and ability to “read the room”, she made up for with enthusiasm and earnestness. I hope she landed at a company that made good use of both.

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    1. Melissa*

      This was my response too. I feel so bad for her. Who among us, when new to the work world, wasn’t missing some major judgement on how jobs work? Most of us don’t end up fired for it. But I hope the OP is happily settled in a good career now.

      Reply ↓
      2. Jiminy Cricket*

        100%. I hope all of us remember how weird and confusing the world of work was when we were brand-new to it.

        This kind of thing may seem unthinkable to Mid-Career You. But try to remember First-Job You, who might as well have just landed in Oz.

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      3. BurnOutCandidate*

        Same.

        I have been on the list to attend conferences at my present job, and then cut from the list by the great-grandboss later in the process. (Grandboss wants me to go, Great-Grandboss is like, “Not in the budget.”) So, I get where the OP is coming from in wanting to go and finding a way to make it happen.

        Yet, I also understand the blowback, though I’m not sure it needed to escalate to termination. Being someplace unexpected as a junior or even lower mid-level doesn’t always go well. Before COVID, a department director asked me to sit in on a meeting with one of our clients. I didn’t think I’d have a role there — it was a type of meeting I’d never been involved in before — but I was able to talk extensively about what my department could do for this client, what our time frames looked like, who specifically in my department they needed to talk to to make certain things happen, and I mapped out a marketing strategy for them with deadlines and some free opportunities that we offered but weren’t often taken advantage of. My grandboss, my department director, was furious after that I was in this meeting (he was not), even though I had been invited and contributed because it was a type of meeting that generally involved higher level people like him. The client, on the other hand, actually said of my contributions, “No one had ever told us this before. We didn’t know how this fit together.” They implemented several of the ideas I went over with them, and I was looking forward to how they did going forward, but unfortunately they didn’t make it through COVID. :(

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      4. The Leanansidhe*

        I remember getting some spectacularly bad “gumptiony” advice from family when I was new to the work world. I can absolutely imagine my grandfather telling me to do something like this. The initiative! The networking! My first thought after reading this letter was “oh no, who’s been giving you job tips?”

        Reply ↓
    2. My oh my*

      I kinda doubt she went on to success. She would have had to change industries at least. She basically made a name for herself to all the industry execs as the sneaky first year who snuck into the conference. I’m sure they all talked about her at the conference and I bet her bosses were not working well of her.

      Reply ↓
      1. Nebula*

        I think it’s a lot to assume that someone hasn’t gone on to be successful based on a misjudgement – even a major one – that early in their career. I highly doubt everyone was talking about her at the conference, presumably at this C-suite conference they had more important things to discuss.

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      2. Anonym*

        Eh, that wouldn’t be true in large industries. I work in communications in finance, and it would take a LOT for someone to become that notorious. I think they’d have to already be in a leadership position with some name recognition before publicly screwing up. Or they’d have to break the law, or go viral somehow.

        Reply ↓
    3. Smurfette*

      I also feel sorry for the LW. With 8 months of work experience, you are bound to make mistakes. I know I did. In fact I got fired for a poor judgement call when I already had 7 years of work experience (what can I say… I’m a slow learner).

      And I actually feel that the LW was not *entirely* to blame here.

      Firstly, “the company can’t send you” is vague to the point of misleading. Why not “the conference is for C-level attendees”?

      Seondly, if a conference is for very senior people only, the organisers have some obligation to screen for this. You don’t just take people’s money and hope for the best.

      Would love an update though. I hope all is well ♥︎

      Reply ↓
      1. Tio*

        Firstly, “the company can’t send you” is vague to the point of misleading. Why not “the conference is for C-level attendees”?

        Because the conference probably wasn’t open to the public, and so the OP shouldn’t have had any need for explanation since they couldn’t go anyway… unless they went behind someone’s back and hid it. And you don’t always get an explanation for every upper level decision; if she really felt this compelled to go, she should have asked more about it.

        Reply ↓
        1. londonedit*

          I also think the bosses probably just didn’t even consider for one minute that they’d need to explain it any further. You’d think, and hope, that a junior employee would take ‘No, sorry, the company can’t send you to that conference’ as the end of the matter.

          Reply ↓
        2. Olive*

          She asked her manager’s manager during a departmental meeting. It’s very understandable that they didn’t want to interrupt the meeting with an explanation that they didn’t already have prepared, or think to give her a longer explanation later.

          But I want to disagree that “the company can’t send you” is in any way vague or misleading. It’s very clear.

          Reply ↓
      2. Spero*

        But when you find an answer vague and misleading like ‘company can’t send you’ the obvious solution is to ASK for clarification. Ex: ‘why can’t they send me?’ ‘Because you’re not an executive’
        Choosing not to ask clarifying questions and proceeding on gumption alone is the highest risk option in a situation with vague info.

        Reply ↓
      3. Observer*

        Firstly, “the company can’t send you” is vague to the point of misleading. Why not “the conference is for C-level attendees”?

        I don’t really understand. The answer was no. Keep in mind that the registration was not open to the public, so saying “we can’t send you” means that “you can’t go.” Nothing vague or misleading at all.

        Seondly, if a conference is for very senior people only, the organisers have some obligation to screen for this.

        Which they *were*! They had a website that required company credentials to enter, and only someone with those credentials is allowed to register people. Which is why the company was embarrassed – the LW made it look like the company was not doing *their* part of the screening process!

        Reply ↓
      4. Person from the Resume*

        Seondly, if a conference is for very senior people only, the organisers have some obligation to screen for this. You don’t just take people’s money and hope for the best.

        The process did exist!!! The organization did not have to screen attendees because companies submitted names of only people who were eligible to attend. When the LW added her name to the list without asking the guy who she was assisting she circumvented the company’s process. The only name she added was her own and in addition to those she was told to put on the list. She circumvented the process by offering to “help.”

        I do think the opportunity fell into her lap. I do not think she would have volunteered to help him except she saw a chance to add her name without anyone else in her company knowing.

        Reply ↓
      5. Irish Teacher.*

        I think it would be vague to the point of misleading if there was a way for the general public to sign themselves up but it sounds like attendees had to be signed up by the company and as far as the person replying knew, she had no access to the signing up, so I guess they didn’t think the reasoning mattered.

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    4. Lyssa*

      I’m kind of torn on that. On one hand, yes, I feel kind of sorry for her having that great a level of enthusiasm and it going badly. But on the other hand, she paid for not only the conference, but also a plane ride and hotel, and took vacation time, just because. That’s just A LOT. It’s sort of like if you’re on your second date with a guy, and he shows up with a huge bouquet, jewelry, and a limo to take you to a Michelin-starred restaurant. Something’s just really off there.

      I would still be inclined to give her a second chance, but I’d be really hesitant to trust her to exercise any sort of judgment.

      Reply ↓
      2. Lyssa*

        ETA, I know paying you’re own way for a conference can sometimes make sense, but not when you’re fairly low level, have already been told no, and (most importantly) don’t actually really know anything about the conference other than having overheard a discussion.

        Reply ↓
      5. Lizzianna*

        That’s a good analogy, and where I’m at too.

        I think what would depend for me is what kind of access to sensitive info she had. Because this all started with a conversation she overheard in an elevator, she used access to the attendee list to add her own name without permission, she hid her plans (either actively or at least by omission)…this situation would really have me questioning her judgment about whether she’s willing to use access to info for her own personal gain, and in some industries, that’s just not a risk you can take once someone has shown that kind of lapse in judgment.

        Reply ↓
    6. MK*

      Eh, no, I don’t think earnestness and enthusiasm makes up for misrepresenting yourself as a representative of your company to gain access to an event. OP didn’t just lack experience and the ability to read the room, they also lacked good sense and the ability to take no for an answer, or at least ask why before ignoring a refusal. And, frankly, earnestness and enthusiasm aren’t that hard to find in young professionals. Firing might have been going too far, but my hope is they learned their lesson, not found a company to validate their behaviour.

      Reply ↓
    7. Fiona-a-a-a*

      I agree with this. OP reads to me as someone who didn’t have access to a lot of direct, good advice from mentors on how work functions.

      Like, sure, they knew AAM existed, but the thought “you need to go to conferences to get ahead in your field” was suggested to them at some point by someone who didn’t fill in the rest of that picture. This sort of thing (even if not at this level) happens often with young workers from blue collar backgrounds, young workers who didn’t have involved parents, young workers on the autism spectrum, and others with similar obstacles.

      As a fellow worker who made a lot of mistakes because I didn’t know where to get good information starting out, I feel for them.

      Reply ↓
    8. Observer*

      What she lacked in experience and ability to “read the room”, she made up for with enthusiasm and earnestness

      Sorry, enthusiasm does not make up for lack of other utterly critical skills. The two most relevant here being integrity – the LW got in through a very underhanded stunt which places their integrity in question. The other being critical thinking and inference skills – they spent a fair amount of money on a conference that they *did* have clues was well above their grade, and say they did not realize how high up everyone there would be. Oh, and also they also don’t seem to have the ability to understand the fallout of their actions and, worse, to take responsibility for their actions. “No one told me” is not a really good response in this context, and they don’t seem to understand that causing a “huge embarrassment” to your company is always something that could put your job at risk, even if you did everything perfectly. And they did NOT do anything “perfectly”.

      Not only does “enthusiasm” not make up for those lacks, it makes them *worse*. Because an enthusiastic person with bad judgement and poor ability to follow rules is more likely to wind up blowing something up than someone who just does their job and doesn’t try to do too much.

      Reply ↓
  6. Having a Scrummy Week*

    I have to respect the balls on this employee. It was kind of a faux pas but I don’t think it’s a fireable offense in my book. More of a “slap on the hand” – I’d both be laughing at their audacity and thinking about what an enthusiastic underling I have.

    Reply ↓
    2. Tio*

      Given that she lied, embarrassed the company, and disregarded a direct answer (no, we can’t send you to the conference) I can absolutely see why they fired her.

      Reply ↓
      1. Having a Scrummy Week*

        I don’t know, is it really that serious? Why is it even embarassing to the company? They could have laughed it off and embraced her confidence.

        Reply ↓
        1. Cyndi*

          People in these comments have pointed out a number of reasons it’s serious–she socially engineered a coworker, she deliberately acted behind management’s back to do something major she’d been explicitly told not to do, she accessed company information she shouldn’t have had access to. None of that indicates “confidence” or can be easily laughed off.

          Reply ↓
        3. blue rose*

          The conference organizers (outsiders, not part of LW’s company) know what happened. Yes, the company really was embarrassed, and now they look bad to the conference organizers, whose interactions with the company in the future will now be colored by this incident. Presumably, the company will want/need to send employees to the conference again.

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        4. Eldia*

          …interesting that you worded it that way. Given the underhanded way LW gained access to the conference, I think “confidence” as in “confidence man” is pretty apt. I’m almost 100% certain that LW didn’t see it that way, and I’m also not at all surprised that the company did.

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        1. Tio*

          That… is something nefarious. She embarrassed the company in front of the conference presenters, basically put a big sign on them saying “We have data security issues due to untrustworthy employees.” The conference people then had to refund her fee. There was potentially extra space taken up in their hotel block that could have gone to someone else (this assumes OP booked through the registration and just used their own card, which is usually how it goes.)

          And maybe that doesn’t seem that bad to you, but if someone who shouldn’t have access to something does something bad with it, that is a serious issue, because they COULD have done something worse. It shows the list is being accessed by people who are not trustworthy.

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        2. Observer*

          Well, they did something that was a problem for the company.

          And when someone shows me that they are capable of being dishonest to suit their convenience, I *have* to take that seriously. When they show *abysmal* judgement, I have to take that seriously, too. When they show *both*?!

          No, this was not a salvageable situation. No one would ever be able to trust them again.

          Reply ↓
        3. NotSlimbutSometimesShady*

          That’s changing company paperwork for her own benefit! After having explicitly been denied! If someone went in and removed a flag from their own HR file, it would be very clear that they needed to be fired for that. While that feels inherently more “fireable” it’s kind of the same principle…

          Reply ↓
        4. Snow Globe*

          That’s the nefarious part. The list of company attendees is made up of people selected by the company. She knew that didn’t include her.

          Reply ↓
        5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

          > she didn’t do anything nefarious with the list

          Deliberately misusing access, which this is (especially so since she didn’t even have legitimate access in the first place) is always an integrity issue and in this case is nefarious in that it’s undermining the process the company has put in place (admittedly it doesn’t seem a very robust process and I bet the validation of attendees has changed for future years of this conference – ever come across an oddly specific rule and wonder why that’s there? Situations like this are why!). OP has shown that she can’t be trusted, and in fact even with the benefit of reading the entire thought process (which the company didn’t, of course) I don’t see any real recognition that she’s abused access and to me that is even more of an issue than embarrassing the company (which most reasonable people will understand as “an employee went rogue”).

          Reply ↓
        6. Oryx*

          She volunteered to help a more-senior employee in order to gain access to a list she wouldn’t normally have had access to through the course of her job and put herself on said list without telling anyone.

          That’s not NOT nefarious.

          Reply ↓
        1. Tio*

          I mean, work is serious? It’s a site about work issues, work is a big part of our time in most cases, and doing bad work can have really bad repercussions.

          And while she may get a point for enthusiasm, I’m pretty sure that I wouldn’t pick someone for further encouragement who has shown that they don’t listen (she was told no) are manipulative (using coworker to get access to something they shouldn’t have access to) doesn’t use good judgement (not looking at the conference itself to see it wasn’t open invite or available to lower levels but just signing up because they felt like it) is deceitful (misused access to gain entry, didn’t inform anyone she would be there until she arrived) and embarrassed us to a partner organization (conference org who has to then refund her ticket and deal with the headache)

          Reply ↓
          1. Bossy*

            Completely agree – and I can say I don’t take work that seriously, lol. Like I’d never ever want to be a vp or some crap. They had to force my 2 direct reports on me! But what I do take seriously is honestly and directness so if someone is being this underhanded and shady, no to mention taking advantage of and disrespecting colleagues – under the guise of helping someone, no less – oh hell no. How could you ever trust this person?
            Frankly one of my direct reports keeps making dumb decisions to the point that I’ve said if I give you a directive you can’t complete please ask what to do next, she’s a total headache.

            Reply ↓
        2. edda ed*

          Work, the thing that provides the means to acquire food and shelter? The thing whose loss often means people likewise lose their homes and/or starve? Really, people take that seriously?

          Reply ↓
          1. Irish Teacher.*

            And which often also has importance for others too. I sure as heck want my doctor to take his work seriously. I want builders and engineers and mechanics to at least take their job seriously when mistakes could lead to accidents or safety hazards. I want pilots and bus and train drivers to take their work seriously. I want judges to take their jobs seriously as you know doing otherwise could lead to innocent people being jailed.

            Reply ↓
        3. Cyndi*

          Actually, I think LW was taking work too seriously and could have saved herself from this whole situation if she’d had, like, an ounce more sense of proportion and used all that go-getter energy and PTO to plan a nice weekend away for herself instead.

          Reply ↓
  7. Drago Cucina*

    There are conferences and then there are conferences. There are some that even if I paid my own way I wouldn’t be let in the room. Why? Need to know is a entry requirement. This applies to public and private entities.

    A case of “gumption” being a big overstep.

    Reply ↓
    1. Leave me be*

      I don’t understand how someone can hear about a really interesting conference and then fail to do enough follow-up research to find out that it’s only for upper management.

      Reply ↓
      1. bamcheeks*

        Ohh, I absolutely can at the junior level. You overhear, “Yes, there were some fantastic papers last time. Did you go to Don Draper’s talk about how they developed the Llametrix tool? Really useful and practical stuff!” Then you go and look at the website, and it’s all shiny glitzy advertising copy like “We invite you to LlamaCon, the most important annual event in the camelid calendar” It almost certainly uses broadly welcoming language and uses words like “thought leaders” and “strategic” which clearly signal “senior leadership” to someone someone with a few years experience but could easily be missed or misunderstood by something with only a few months’ experience in a professional workplace. You don’t know what to look for if you don’t know!

        Reply ↓
      3. Snow Globe*

        This is my question. What, exactly, made the LW think that this conference sounded like something she was so excited to attend? I would think that before spending her own money, she’d look online to see I what kind of topics would be discussed, at which point it would probably have become obvious that it was geared for very senior people. She probably also would have realized that it was by invitation only. So, she must have gone to such great lengths just based on an overheard conversation in an elevator?

        Reply ↓
  8. Hiring Mgr*

    I think the biggest misstep was “helping” the guy who was in charge of the conference booking – OP basically had access to the whole thing and registered herself although she probably knew she shouldn’t.

    I can understand the firing, but I’ve also seen much much worse happen with no repercussions

    Reply ↓
    2. CityMouse*

      Yes. Had she used a publicly available website to sign up, different letter. She volunteered to take over a task for an employee so she could add her own name.

      I would have fired her too, TBH. You can’t trust someone who does something like that.

      Reply ↓
      1. doreen*

        Exactly – there were loads of conferences I could have attended that my employer wouldn’t pay for. And I did attend some, paying the expenses myself. But I didn’t have to register through my employer and some were open to literally anyone.

        Reply ↓
    3. learnedthehardway*

      I don’t read this as necessarily deliberately sneaky / underhanded, but it could certainly be interpreted that way (and probably was). It was certainly poor decision making / judgment on the OP’s part to add their name to the company attendee list without clearing it with their manager.

      The rest could have been considered a junior mistake, and perhaps a learning experience for the manager (be clear on explanations), the conference (be clear on who is and is not your audience), etc.

      I think whether this warranted firing really depends on whether it was the OP’s first mistake or whether it was part of a pattern, though.

      Reply ↓
      1. Snow Globe*

        I’m assuming she did it that way because she wasn’t able to sign up as a general attendee. Which seems sneaky to me, if she knew she couldn’t go any other way.

        Reply ↓
        1. Bast*

          I can see it being sneaky, but sort of in an “eager to prove myself and how dedicated I am” type of way that so many of us are told is good early career. “Going the extra mile” and all that. I give a lot of leeway to the LW because of how early career they are that I would not give to someone more senior. This is something that may seem “obvious” to someone who is more experienced, but is one of those things that may be not so obvious to an intern or entry level individual.

          Reply ↓
  9. Don't Comment Much*

    I remember this one. I am still mortified! This is one of those things that would somehow eventually be rewarded in a rom-com but not in real life.

    Reply ↓
    1. Smurfette*

      Right? In a romcom they would have caught the eye of an attractive (and sympathetic) exec as they fled the conference centre.

      Reply ↓
      1. Somewhat crazy*

        And he’d follow her, but in her mortification she lashes out at him.

        Then she calls her bff to cry and talk about the cute exec

        Reply ↓
  10. Blue Spoon*

    If nothing else, now this LW has a really good answer to “tell me about a time you made a mistake” questions during interviews.

    Reply ↓
    2. EngGirl*

      So so true! And they get bonus points for being so early in their career at the time, so they can actually show growth and understanding lol

      Reply ↓
    4. TQB*

      Sure, it’s great and memorable, but i don’t know how you tell the story without admitting you disobeyed a very clear direction from your manager. Major red flag to me, and it would be hard for me to be convinced that they’d learned the error of their ways if they’re still trotting the story out as an anecdote. Seems like they still can’t read the room.

      I’d definitely put the interview in my top 10 Hiring Hall of Shame, right up there with the guy this summer who started into his cover letter without any sort of greeting, just launched into his schtick.

      Reply ↓
      1. crookedglasses*

        If you ask the question “tell me about about a time you made a mistake” and then are put off when someone does exactly that, it seems like you’ve got a real risk of screening out honest and self-reflective candidates.

        I will allow that there needs to be a meaningful lesson learned – if it’s just “I did this and it was a mistake because I got fired” then yeah, that’s not great. But if it’s “I did this, and I see now that it was a mistake because I didn’t take the time to understand the full context of the answer I’d gotten. Even worse, I did a runaround on approvals for it when the opportunity arose. Now I take the time to x, y, and z.” then that seems like a pretty solid response!

        Reply ↓
        1. Dawn*

          Right, don’t ask the question if you don’t want to hear an honest answer. You’ll just be screening out honest candidates if you do that and favouring people like the “I don’t make mistakes” dude.

          Reply ↓
          1. Green great dragon*

            There’s space in the middle. I’m sure LW can tell it as a story that works (maybe leave out the bit where they added themselves to the list of people the company had approved to attend). But there are definitely mistakes that are going to be a mark against you, however much you say you’ve grown.

            Reply ↓
            1. Eldritch Office Worker*

              Yes. Mistakes can be big and revelatory. This person experienced the consequences, they don’t need to spend the rest of their lives self flagellating over it. It was a judgement of error from someone new to the workforce and I think if they can frame it as a moment of learning then it’s a great story for this kind of question.

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          2. Irish Teacher.*

            They could probably leave that part out and simply say “I was told my company couldn’t send me to a conference which I took to mean they were unable to invest in sending me so I went on my own dime and it turned out to be a very high level conference and the higher-ups were quite embarrassed at my faux pas” and then explain how they learnt about researching events properly and listening to their manager and so on.

            Reply ↓
            1. KateM*

              And then the hiring manager finds out that OP was sneakily hiding their sneaky dishonesty part and conclude that they haven’t actually changed at all.

              Reply ↓
              1. Eldritch Office Worker*

                How on earth would they find that out? And everyone is dishonest in job interviews. You can frame it as “presenting yourself in your best light” or “only sticking to relevant facts”, but no one is expecting you to go into a job interview and highlight all the things that truly suck about you.

                Reply ↓
                1. KateM*

                  Yeah, OP can always hope they will not find out. My point is that I can’t see how OP can use this as an interview answer without having questionable judgement.

        3. Engineery*

          I think the elements of “attended a closed meeting I was explicitly forbidden from attending,” plus “accomplished this by falsifying a document to produce fake credentials,” plus “accomplished THAT by pretending to help a (temporarily) disabled coworker, using their limited mobility as a means to gain access to the document I falsified,” just exposes OP’s character in such a egregiously negative way that OP couldn’t possibly turn it into a learning experience. I would not recommend OP share this story in a job interview.

          When I ask “Tell me about a time when you made a mistake,” I expect an actual mistake, where you had good intentions (or at least, not evil ones), and the result was something you should have expected but didn’t. Telling me that you took advantage of a disabled coworker and it blew up in your face is kind of a non-starter. I’m not going to ask for any follow-up questions on how you might have managed a better outcome. I’m just going to ask you to leave.

          Reply ↓
      2. MsM*

        I think if part of the narrative is that you learned why you should take your manager seriously when they try and discourage you from doing something, I’d take that as evidence of growth unless there were other red flags.

        Reply ↓
      3. HonorBox*

        If you ask about a time you made a mistake and are judging the mistake more than the outcome, that’s a big mistake. If you’re looking for “I messed up and had the formula adding B3 and C3 instead of B2 and B3, and now I make sure to double check my formulas before handing off my Excels to my boss” then you’re going to get examples that don’t really show much.

        What if this LW told the story, shared that they got fired, and then tell you the six things they reflected on during the time they were unemployed and how they’ve changed how they operate in three concrete ways, and how they’ve seen value in those changes. Isn’t that better than “I screwed up a formula and my boss was mad?”

        Reply ↓
        1. Fiona-a-a-a*

          I always think the important thing about the answer to the mistake question is either “and here’s what I learned” or “and here’s how I fixed it” or “and here’s what I do differently now” and “here’s what I’d do differently if I got a do-over.”

          Because of that, there’s a certain level of mistake that doesn’t work. Like, if someone literally died, that’s not usually a good mistake example. But I think this one’s really doable – the things to change to not end up in the same situation are things like clarifying questions, and the things lost were not life but money and having to experience some tough conversations (for the people other than LW, who also suffered job loss).

          Reply ↓
  11. I should really pick a name*

    It’s telling that instead of asking if they pay their own way, the LW decided to do this without telling anyone.

    Yes, it might be a misguided attempt to “show initiative”, but offering to take some work off someone’s hands to register themselves seems way more complicated than just offering to pay.

    Firing does seem a bit extreme, but I also question the LW’s judgement that they were a model employee based on the fact that this seemed like a good approach to them.

    Reply ↓
    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      “I also question the LW’s judgement that they were a model employee based on the fact that this seemed like a good approach to them.”

      Yeah and that’s why I like Alison’s advice about getting feedback if they can. If they weren’t able to read this situation, there might have been more like it that could lead to very different takeaways regarding their overall performance.

      Reply ↓
    2. Observer*

      Yes, I really suspect the the LW’s self assessment is not quite accurate. “No write ups” is not a really high bar…

      Reply ↓
          1. Bast*

            I don’t know. In most of the cases where we had a true problem employee, the problems seemed to manifest pretty quickly after the probationary period ended.

            Reply ↓
  13. mango chiffon*

    Honestly the biggest problem here is taking advantage of the coworker and signing up herself without anyone knowing. Did that coworker get into trouble because they let someone else do the work they were assigned? Coworker had no idea OP would sign herself up and why would that coworker think that?

    Reply ↓
    1. Ginger Cat Lady*

      I agree. The issue here is the sneakiness, not the attendance alone. We also need to remember that OP is probably putting themselves in the best light, so there may have been factors not included that played into it. Did they argue about it publicly at the conference? Talk bitterly about it with colleagues while waiting for the return flight?

      Reply ↓
  14. NotAnotherManager!*

    What I couldn’t figure out is how they couldn’t tell the conference was for upper management. Usually, a conference will describe itself or its target audience in a way that’s fairly clear and post an agenda of speakers/sessions. If *none* of those sessions are applicable to your level/job, it’s probably not for you.

    Also, your boss telling you “no” is generally not an invitation to find a way around the “no”. I’m sure there are exceptions for bad bosses, but LW could have saved themselves a lot of trouble by directly confirming it was a “no” and not a “we can’t pay for it” rather than coming in sideways via another avenue.

    Reply ↓
    1. RAC*

      It sounded like she never did any research after hearing about it. There may have been more info making the audience clear in its promotional materials.

      Reply ↓
      1. londonedit*

        That’s the impression I got, too – she heard people talking about it, asked her boss, boss said no, then she got herself on to the spreadsheet and added her name in. I can’t see anything to say she did any actual research about the conference, just ‘I want to go, Boss says no, I know, I’ll add my name and then I’ll book my own travel’.

        Reply ↓
    2. Strive to Excel*

      If you’re not used to the Business Neutral dialect used by most of these conference organizers to describe what is going on, it can be very misleading. I’d guess it was OP being an intern and just being unfamiliar with the norms that led to the confusion.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        Yeah, I was thinking along these lines. The session titles could have easily been something along the lines of “[Industry] Road Map for 2030.” For people who know Business Neutral dialect, that’s obviously very high-level strategy for high-level people only. But I could see someone who’s enthusiastic and unfamiliar with Business Neutral reading that session title and thinking “oh wow, I want to know how [industry] will change from now to 2030! And I could share this information with my coworkers when I get back. It’ll be super useful for me to go to this session.”

        Reply ↓
      2. Jiminy Cricket*

        This is exactly right. Anybody who thinks that conference organizers write nice, clear sentences like, “This conference is intended for director-level professionals with a decade or more experience in the field and is not intended for entry-level employees” hasn’t read a conference site in a long time.

        Reply ↓
    3. Fiona-a-a-a*

      I think that learning to read descriptions of things like conferences for “is this directed at me” is a skill that has to be developed in most people.

      Reply ↓
      1. Guacamole Bob*

        +1

        In my field, I have had to learn to differentiate “will be practical and useful” sessions at conferences from “way too theoretical from someone who has no practical experience and is applying fancy math to an issue that sounds relevant.” It’s not always easy.

        Reply ↓
    5. TKC*

      The thing that gets me is that there are SO many awful/useless conferences out there. You cannot possibly know if one is worth attending just based on a conversation about (presumably) the focus/topic, much less spending your own money on.

      It’s not that someone early in their career would know that, but there’s something slightly odd about going to such lengths to attend a conference with absolute confidence it would be helpful to one’s career based on an overheard conversation.

      EVEN IF the underhandedness hadn’t happened, and there were no issues at all with attending, nobody found out, etc. it’s super odd to put so much effort and money into something without understanding it a little more.

      Reply ↓
  15. Commenter 505*

    OP didn’t ask their direct manager or let anyone know they planned to attend because they knew the response would be no.

    Slicing & dicing the language of “The company can’t send you” into “The company *would* send you if it was in the budget, and therefore you are welcome to attend if you pay your own way” is sneaky and OP knows it. They would’ve told their co-workers and supervisors about how excited they were to be attending the conference, instead of concealing their plans. Consciousness of guilt.

    Reply ↓
  16. Zoeeeeee*

    This story always makes me cringe because it is ABSOLUTLEY the sort of thing I would do – interpreting “the company can’t send you” to mean literally that, and that it’s fine if I send myself.

    Why yes, I am autistic – what gave it away?!

    Reply ↓
    1. Productivity Pigeon*

      But would you have added yourself to the list without permission or checking with anyone?

      If OP had somehow registered themselves outside of work and then paid the fee, the hotel, asked for PTO etc… That I feel is definitively a mistake many people (on and off the spectrum) could make.
      It’s your money and time after all.

      But for me it comes down to that OP registered themselves through the company, they added themselves to a list they didn’t even have access to originally.

      I can’t tell from the letter if OP offered to take over the conference work in order to sign themselves up or if they realized they could do it while they were working on the lists/registration.

      I HOPE OP didn’t offer to help out because they knew they could register themselves. But I don’t think so, OP sounds more clueless than malicious.

      Reply ↓
    1. Stella70*

      Personally, to me, in my opinion….conferences = ugh.
      I would rather be demoted if it meant I was no longer qualified to attend a conference. After 30+ years in the work-world, I can’t name one that couldn’t have just been an email. ;)

      Reply ↓
  18. Fluffy Fish*

    I did disagree with Alison that it wasn’t fireable for one specific reason.

    It was the manipulation and sneaking they did to sign themselves up. That was the fireable part for me. If they had just gone to a conference website and signed up directly that would have been one thing.

    Reply ↓
    1. Just Thinkin' Here*

      Agreed. This entire episode shows someone willing to take advantage of co-workers in need of help, refusal to follow orders, failure to follow policies and procedures, and using internal systems for personal gain. This employee lacks judgement on so many levels.

      Reply ↓
  19. Feminonominon*

    The LW never says their gender. A few of the comments refer to them as she/her. Interesting, that’s not the impression I get at all.

    Reply ↓
    1. Nebula*

      It’s general practice on this site to refer to LWs as she/her when no pronouns or other indications of gender have been given. I personally default to they, being a they myself, but it’s sort of a cultural thing round here.

      Reply ↓
      1. Dawn*

        Exactly, I default to “they,” having had my own uncomfortable experiences being misgendered and finding “they” the least offensive option, but “she” is very common here.

        I have defaulted to “he/him” on occasion but only when I was very convinced.

        Reply ↓
        1. Irish Teacher.*

          I vary between she/her and they/them here for…really no particular reason as to why I use either one. It’s not usually related to how I imagine the LW. If anything, it might be influenced by whether I’m replying to somebody who has used a particular version or what has been used all along.

          Or actually, it’s often which I think will be easier to understand. Like if the LW was writing about a boss being unreasonable and refers to the boss as “she,” I might use they for the LW rather than writing stuff like “well, in the LW’s letter, she said that she was a horrible boss” whereas if the LW is talking about their entire department being annoyed at something, I might use “she” to make it clear when I am refering to the LW specifically as opposed to the group at large.

          Reply ↓
    2. Czech Mate*

      I got the impression it was a male LW based on the writing style (men generally tend to write shorter, more direct sentences) but it also sounded like something that a male fresh out of college kid would do.

      On the other hand, I’m a cis/het woman and I did something similar-but-less-egregious in my first year out of college, too.

      Reply ↓
    3. Somewhat crazy*

      I’m a she, and I can totally imagine myself doing this!
      But you’re right, I don’t think the person stated any pronouns.

      Reply ↓
    7. Apex Mountain*

      I assumed the LW was female, mainly because for some reason I always assumed the majority of LWs and commenters are female. Not sure why I think that though

      Reply ↓
  20. Jo-El*

    Where I work what you did MIGHT get you a light slap on the wrist, but then again, we actively try to promote and make employees better. As a manager I would have a conversation on appropriateness but that would be the end of it. that was a gross overreaction by their company. Just know that their reaction isn’t normal.

    Reply ↓
    1. CityMouse*

      I don’t think this is an overreaction at all because LW took advantage of an employee situation to add their own name to an official employer list after being told no. LW thus put their company in a situation where the company appeared to okay this and LW showed that they would manipulate employer situations for their own benefit.

      The actions here were egregious.

      Reply ↓
    2. Nebula*

      As others have pointed out, it’s not just the attending in and of itself, though that was inappropriate on its own, it’s the fact the LW took advantage of helping their colleague to sign themself up without letting anyone else know. That sticks out as the most egregious part imo, and I can see why the company took it seriously. I certainly wouldn’t take the firing as evidence that the company *doesn’t* actively try to promote their employees and make them better (which is what your comment seems to imply). After all, the LW’s grandboss was there despite not being C-level, and had got permission to go. That looks like they are interested in developing employees and giving them exposure to discussions at a higher level, just within certain boundaries that make sense.

      Reply ↓
    3. HonorBox*

      I think you can have a workplace in which you try to promote and make people better and react in a way that meets the infraction. The LW was told they couldn’t go. Instead of asking for additional information (or seeking additional information on their own) they put themself on a list. And didn’t tell anyone that they were planning to attend.

      If the LW had attended an after-hours function for managers across town, not knowing it was for managers only, then maybe that’s slap on the wrist territory. But this is a major error in judgement and shows that the LW was insubordinate, not able / willing to find information about the conference, and putting the business in a very awkward position with the planners of the event.

      Reply ↓
  21. Boggle*

    I wonder if OP was fired for insubordination. This is not the same as attending an onsite meeting hoping their *moxy* would be noticed. OP had to fly, make accommodations for, and take off time from work to attend. That they covered it themselves has no bearing. This was more than an overstep but a blatant disregard to being told they could not attend. Regardless of why, managers don’t always go into full details, obviously there was a valid reason . As for the target audience attendees of the conference being higher management, all the details of the conferences I’ve attended have included that information. I’m not buying what OP is trying to sell. They wanted to get ahead and when it didn’t turn out that way, they looked for blame elsewhere.

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  22. Dood*

    I still feel so bad for this LW. I’ve seen a lot of unwarranted firings in my time and unless there is a significant piece of context missing here, this should have been treated as a learning opportunity, not a fireable offence.

    For example, the manager could have learned how to communicate clearly and explain that only the most senior people in the company can go to this conference for whatever reason. (I’m hoping the reason is that state secret level information is being discussed and a security clearance is required, not because a group of people are full of themselves and want to be exclusive just because they can. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.)

    I hope LW learned what they could from this, and have gone on to have a successful career. It’s certainly the type of mistake I’ve seen a lot of people far older and more experienced than LW make, because they wanted to show initiative and communication wasn’t clear as to why they shouldn’t.

    Reply ↓
    1. Archi-detect*

      the thing is that firstly they only asked in a staff meeting, when you need to get through a lot of topics quickly and did not follow up later in private for more information/to make a case and secondly the deception of signing up under false pretenses. Both of those are big reasons to look more poorly on the situation

      Reply ↓
    2. Sunflower*

      I don’t know. Even without management explaining the details, they shouldn’t add themselves on the official company name and invitation list if they want to attended. If there isn’t a general public access website that anyone off the streets can sign up, there’s a reason.

      I simply can’t believe the OP didn’t know they were doing something wrong. Especially without one word to manager that they were so interested they signed up with their own money and time so “I’ll see you there next week.”

      Reply ↓
    3. MistOrMister*

      While I feel bad for OP for getting fired, I don’t think it is necessary that this should have been treated as a learning experience. It is possible that the higher ups were so furious that they fired OP without stopping to really consider that situation. However, OP did demonstrate blatant dishonesty in the situation. (Offering to help a coworker specifically so they could put their own name down to attend a conference they had been denied is flagrantly dishonest. Not telling anyone at their office that they registered and planned to attend was also, to my mind, a form of dishonesty.) I can understand an employer in that situation saying no, this is too much we are noy keeping this person. There are certainly places/bosses that would feel as OP was early in their career that discussing with them what they did wrong would be enough, but I can see where someone might not want to do that. The dishonesty and secrecy are just a lot. I find it hard to believe OP really felt they were in the right because beyond signing themselves up when they were “helping” their coworker, they did not tell anyone that they were attending. If they really believed it was ok to go as long as they paid their own way, why did they not mention it? And why not ask if they could attend if they paid their own way rather than doing so in an underhanded manner?

      In what way did the manager fail to communicate? A junior employee asked to go to a meeting and they were told the company wasn’t able to send them. That was all the information they needed. If they had questions about if they could go if they paid their own way, it was their reaponsibility to ask.

      There are plenty of conferences that ate not appropriate for junior employees that are not about super confidential state secrets and are not higher ups wanting to feel important and lording it over the peons. That’s a weird take on things to me. I assumed it was a conference about managing and someone at OP’s level wouldn’t have needed that information and likely would not have been able to keep up due to her lack of experience.

      Reply ↓
    4. blue rose*

      I definitely understand why you’re inclined to leniency, but the LW’s deceptive methods weigh very heavily with me here—I cannot see how the bosses could use this as a “learning opportunity.” Like how a PIP is not a useful tool for handling dishonesty.

      Reply ↓
    5. DE*

      Yeah, maybe it’s because I’ve always worked union jobs, but the attitude in these comment sections around terminations are always confusing to me. Firing employees should be rare and pretty much never should it be the result of one incident. Something like this would never get me fired.

      Reply ↓
      1. Dood*

        I agree. I find anyone who jumps straight to firing, or even straight to a PIP, genuinely alarming. There are obviously exceptions to this, but I don’t actually see how this situation warrants it based on the information we have.

        Reply ↓
  23. nee: email settings*

    Can someone give me an example of a conference that’s targeted towards directors and executives like this? I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around the concept. (I’m not from a field that has such things, at least as far as I know.)

    Reply ↓
    1. CityMouse*

      It’s not exactly equivalent because there’s very significant security and controls, but there are conferences that involve classified material and everyone attends has to hold a particular security clearance.

      Reply ↓
        1. Strive to Excel*

          I don’t think there’s enough italics or bolding in the world to get across the horror I would feel if I had to attend a conference in a SCIF. I’d rather eat my shoes without salt.

          Reply ↓
    2. HonorBox*

      In my industry, we have a couple of examples. At our major industry conference, there’s a meeting room and specific agenda for executives. I can’t even get into the room because my name badge doesn’t say executive.

      The planner of that conference also does executive meetings a couple of times each year. Again, I can’t attend. They also have other meetings for those in other functional areas of our industry and your job title or function have to match up with what the meeting is geared toward.

      Reply ↓
    3. Lady Lessa*

      This is similar. I know a little bit about shipping hazardous materials, because I’ve helped our shipper with classification. BUT, a conference about liability of shipping things wrong, would be extremely over my head, not to mention completely inappropriate.

      A conference that would be the opposite would be how to formulate materials to minimize the shipping hazards would be my cup of tea and she would avoid

      Reply ↓
    4. i am a human*

      I worked for a federal-state program with an institute in all 50 US states and four territories that hosted a director meeting each year in February. It was a day and a half of director-level program updates and partnership building, and half a day of lobbying on The Hill. It’s one of those things that you wouldn’t know it was happening unless you were on the invite list, but technically the registration was on a public website, so if you came across it, you might think to register if you thought the topics sounded interesting. They denied registration a few times when it was someone outside the program trying to get access to all these directors.

      Ironically, I started attending that meeting as an entry level employee because my boss thought the information was better for me (the person doing the work) than for him. They let me stay and eventually some of the other institutes brought their equivalent (program manager/associate director type person).

      Reply ↓
    5. Hiring Mgr*

      These are not uncommon at all. Plenty of conferences want to be able to sell sponsorships/booths by featuring executive or C-Level attendees

      Reply ↓
    6. Ginger Baker*

      If you go Google Cambridge Forums (or put that, no space, dot com) you will see one example! My understanding is these are all invite-only so that the material is relevant to everyone in the room and each attendee also has something to offer.

      Reply ↓
      1. nee: email settings*

        Thank you for providing a specific example! It was very helpful to be able to search and see what one of them looked like.

        Reply ↓
    7. doreen*

      I once attended a conference that was directed specifically at female managers in law enforcement/corrections so not just directors and executives – but also not everyone who works in a law enforcement/corrections agency.

      Reply ↓
    8. Ginger Cat Lady*

      They’re not always publicly advertised, and are usually invite-only. You wouldn’t be getting promotional emails about them.

      Reply ↓
    9. DE*

      This isn’t directly analogous, but there are lots of school administrator conferences that I as a teacher would never attend. It just wouldn’t be relevant to me.

      Reply ↓
      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I was going to mention some of the conferencess our principal and deputy principal attend about school management. I guess some of them might be relevant to somebody applying for a principalship, but they seem to be pretty much principals only.

        Reply ↓
  24. Inkognyto*

    This right here is why “I signed myself up for the conference along with everyone else. But I only signed up as an attendee from my company”

    1) They were told no.
    2) They were asked to assist someone with the company that was handling it.
    3) they offered to do the registrations
    4) they used the privilege to sign themselves up

    It looks like they exploited a way to get to the conference, even if the person themself wasn’t trying to be devious it was still a way to get in.

    If someone else had to register them they would have been denied.

    Reply ↓
  25. HonorBox*

    I can get on board with the idea that someone making a mistake… even a very serious mistake… doesn’t have to be fired. There are lessons to be learned and it isn’t always in the best interest of the business to have to start from scratch. I think there could have been lessons in this situation for sure. The major one being the embarrassment. Then the money and PTO that were used. BUT this seems like more than a mistake. There were so many calculations that had to go into this. They slid their name onto the list. They booked travel. They didn’t mention anything to anyone about their attendance. And oh yeah… they were told they couldn’t go initially… when they asked in a meeting that wasn’t about this topic.

    No one owed the LW additional information about ‘why’ they couldn’t attend. But they sure could have asked their own manager about it if they wanted or needed more. And yet they didn’t.

    This wasn’t a big mistake to learn from, but more a calculated act that they planned while actively subverting all the normal rules of engagement for work.

    Reply ↓
    1. Archi-detect*

      yeah I am not sure anything short of a suspension without pay and a serious chewing out would be an option here. I guess you could offer a firing without a negative reference, conformation of dates only but yeah it would be fair to mention to a reference what went wrong.

      Reply ↓
  26. Poison I.V. drip*

    I always picture this conference as a vampire convention that junior employees aren’t allowed to see until they’re deeper into the vampire subculture. OP was lucky she never got to witness any secret rituals or they might not have let her leave!

    Reply ↓
  27. CityMouse*

    I’m also going to point out there are also timesheet issues here. I occasionally attend conferences for work. When I do I’m specifically reporting time based on my activities at the conference. There are some we are allowed to attend on our own time but my employer makes very clear when those are and we are in a different role there.

    Reply ↓
  28. Ms. Norbury*

    I’ve always felt this letter has FOMO written all over it: the LW wanted so badly not to be left out that they never even stopped to really consider if their presence would be welcomed, or even make sense. And like Alison, I suspect this was probably not the first time they overstepped at that job.

    Reply ↓
  29. WorkerDrone*

    Everyone is saying OP’s biggest mistake was taking advantage of the injured co-worker and signing herself up secretly, which – yes, huge mistake. Not OP’s biggest mistake, in my opinion though.

    OP’s biggest mistake was also the most unforgivable – not doing sufficient research on the conference. OP was SO SURE it would be important for her career she lied/went behind everyone’s back to sign up… but didn’t even bother doing basic research about the conference?? OP says over and over again had she known it wasn’t for entry level employees, she wouldn’t have attended, but how did she NOT know? I’ll tell you how: she based every single bad decision off a conversation she overheard and wasn’t even part of and did zero follow-up on the conference.

    THAT is why I see this as a fire-able offense. OP’s judgement was bad, sure, but OP’s judgement was so bad because OP didn’t bother to do even the tiniest bit of due diligence before she went ahead and did some sneaky dealing to get to the conference.

    OP made so many bad decisions that could have all been prevented by spending ten minutes on the conference website, or asking literally any follow-up questions about the conference. I’d fire OP for that, too. Even as a junior employee, if OP can’t do this most basic level of problem-solving and information-gathering before taking a risk, that’s not someone I’d trust as an employee.

    Reply ↓
      1. Curious*

        I don’t agree. Failing to do appropriate research (due diligence) is a typical — and forgivable — error from an entry level employee. You can train them out of making those types of errors.

        Sneaking themself onto the attendence list showed a lack of integrity. That is fatal to their continued employment.

        Reply ↓
  30. Dawn*

    I think what the answer missed is that OP basically social-engineered his way into someone’s computer just so that they could sign themselves up. They said, “Sure, I’ll help you with your work!,” because they now it would give them the opportunity to put themselves on the company’s invite list. That is the reason for the firing; not that they showed up, but because they got themselves in in a pretty shady way in the first place obviously knowing they weren’t supposed to do that (or they’d have asked if they could add themselves to the list.)

    Reply ↓
    1. CityMouse*

      That’s a good point. This could basically be a hypo in one of those cheesy training videos they have us watch every year on computer systems security.

      Reply ↓
  31. Sunflower*

    I can’t decide if firing was extreme or not. She thought her actions were fine but she put her company in a bad light within the entire(?) industry. And she did it by using information she may not have access to if she wasn’t asked to help a guy with medical issue and used it for herself. What if she has access to much more sensitive information in the future? How can they trust that she won’t use to to her advantage?

    If your manager says no, then at least ask if you it’s ok to sign yourself up on your own dime. Don’t simply surprise them by popping up in the same business conference even if it’s your own vacation time. Was the sign up page even general public access, or was it it sent to select businesses by invitation only?

    I know she meant no harm so live and learn.

    Reply ↓
  32. Bananapants*

    Wowza, I get that the manager could have been more clear about *why* they couldn’t send OP, but also… OP made a few really bad decisions here and I get why this was a Big Deal, though maybe firing immediately was a bit much. First, it sounds like they heard about the conference and then impulsively registered for it (and paid for the hotel and flights!) based only on information they overheard + whatever details were given during the registration process. Second, they abused their access to the registration process/platform (however that worked) for their personal advantage. It’s sneaky and gross even if they thought it was ok to go. I don’t have the full details but based on the letter, it sounds like this wasn’t a situation where they were just using a publicly accessible registration form to sign up. Not a good look.

    Reply ↓
  33. ThisIsNotADuplicateComment*

    I’m still shocked Alison never addressed HOW the LW got into the conference in her response. As many others have pointed out I think that’s the worst offence in the letter, and probably what tipped the company into “fire LW right now” territory. Offering to help a co-worker with something and then using that new access to benefit you reads like something from a training video on how hackers use social engineering to get into company systems, or a heist movie!

    Reply ↓
  34. RCB*

    Honestly, I’m not surprised that this person was fired and I do think it was probably reasonable: Reading the letter it was pretty clear that this person was just so wildly clueless about workplace norms that I absolutely cannot believe that this was a first offense. As Alison said the employee may not have known they had previously overstepped because it was a series of little things that weren’t worth correcting but did add up, and this was a massive straw (in fact an entire bale!) that broke the camel’s back. I think there was definitely a pattern of overstepping that this employee did and this conference thing was just so horrendously out of line that it all added up to fireable, especially for someone they hadn’t invested much into yet since they were so new, so time to cut their losses and move on.

    Reply ↓
  35. Jiminy Cricket*

    OMG there but for the grace of gd go all of us. This person, brand-new to the workforce, had no idea how conferences work. Neither did I at that age! And, it’s not all surprising that the vague conference-y jargon on their website didn’t make it clear who the intended audience is. Thirty years on I still have trouble wading through all the “innovator”-speak.

    This isn’t even the dreaded “gumption.” They didn’t try to tell an experienced coworker how to do their job. They didn’t mess with company systems or files. They, understandably, figured they could do what they want with their time and money to advance their career.

    Yes, they were wrong, but this should have resulted in a clear explanation, better mentorship, and, when the dust settled, a good laugh.

    Reply ↓
    1. edda ed*

      Tbh the LW’s actions look very gumption-y to me. Not taking the boss’s boss’s “no,” then secretly adding their name to the list of attendees that the company sends to the conference registration under the guise of “helping” a coworker is exactly the kind of overly pushy, boundary-crossing drive that AAM has bemoaned for years

      Reply ↓
    2. Fiona-a-a-a*

      Yes! Who here hasn’t done something extremely silly when they thought they had access to something mythical! I definitely thought conferences and trade shows and especially work travel was going to be legendary and incredible until I experienced it.

      I used to work at a hospital, and another one I saw all the time was how magical people tended to think doctors were. You know, the same people I was helping operate the copier and trying to convince to remember a single password, please.

      Reply ↓
      1. Irish Teacher.*

        You’ve reminded me of how I spoke of “going to a conference in Athlone” when I first started correcting at…the age of 26? I was sort of joking rather than boasting, but I did love how cool it sounded.

        Reply ↓
    3. Dawn*

      They kind of explicitly did mess with company systems, though.

      When they found out that the person responsible for registering conference attendees was injured, they said, “Hey, I’ll be happy to do that for you!” and used that person’s systems access to also register themselves.

      That’s… as far as I’m concerned that’s immediate firing behaviour. They knowingly took advantage of a senior coworker to put themselves on a list without permission that they had no business being on. That’s highly unethical behaviour.

      The rest might be salvageable but you can’t keep someone around who’s going to betray the company’s trust like that.

      Reply ↓
      1. Jiminy Cricket*

        I don’t see clear evidence of premeditated social engineering here. It’s possible, yes. But most likely the “company system” they circumvented was a login to register everyone else for the event. They think, “Oh. This is the login for the event. Now I will pay for myself, just like ComicCon.”

        Again: They still did something wrong. But extreme cluelessness is the most likely explanation I see, not nefariousness.

        Reply ↓
        1. edda ed*

          You’re the person who added “premeditated,” a word that doesn’t matter in this case and doesn’t preclude social engineering. LW offered help to a coworker in need in order to access and alter things they shouldn’t. Social engineering.

          I definitely think LW did this out of extreme inexperience and the cluelessness that comes from inexperience, but their first clueless, inexperienced mistake was a pretty damn huge mistake. Being that new, they should have got the lay of the land before even thinking about making big moves.

          Reply ↓
      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yep. If you could go to conference-r-us dot com, and click a publicly available link to register, that’s one thing. Still a little weird, but not super shady. But if the only way you can do a registration is to wait for someone to injure themselves, offer to help them, and sneak your name onto the list without telling anybody, then you are Shady McShaderson and you need to stop living life like you’re in an episode of Leverage.

        Reply ↓
    4. Worldwalker*

      No. It’s not a thing most of us would do. It’s not just “gumption” — it’s flat-out dishonesty.

      I choose to be honest. I have all my life. Honesty is one of my immutable core values.

      The LW chose to be dishonest. They chose to be dishonest, moreover, for no greater stakes than attending a conference. This is not an honest person.

      Reply ↓
      1. Jiminy Cricket*

        I’m going to drop it now, but it’s entirely likely they didn’t know they were being dishonest! They didn’t understand the barrier to entry and therefore didn’t know they were circumventing it.

        I have no trouble imagining an entry-level employee without enough to do offering to help with the conference because conferences sound cool, not because they are trying to get around a system.

        Y’all are going to think I’m the LW and start demanding that update. ;)

        Reply ↓
        1. edda ed*

          They were dishonest to the employee they duped to gain access to the registration list. They were dishonest and misrepresented themselves to the conference itself—they signed up as an attendee from the company, which the company sure didn’t authorize. They asked manager’s manager, got a “no,” and pushed past that “no” on the down low.

          I think your arguments ignore the fact that lying by omission isn’t some logical loophole, it’s deceptive. It’s dishonesty.

          Reply ↓
        2. Jennifer Strange*

          If they didn’t know they were circumventing it they wouldn’t have sneakily gotten their name on the list. They would have gone to their boss (or boss’s boss) and said “I’d really like to attend that conference and would be happy to cover my own expenses if the company can’t afford to send me.” Then they would have found out why it was they couldn’t go. But they didn’t do that, they added their name when no one was looking.

          I have no trouble imagining an entry-level employee without enough to do offering to help with the conference because conferences sound cool, not because they are trying to get around a system.

          Sure, but that doesn’t explain why they then added their name to the list without telling anyone.

          Reply ↓
    5. Jennifer Strange*

      Even when I was a young employee, if someone said “The company can’t send you to this conference” I wouldn’t then try to worm my way onto the company’s list of attendees, which is what the LW did. They saw they weren’t able to sign up on their own, so they took advantage of another employee to get their name on there. That’s not a small oopsie.

      They didn’t mess with company systems or files.

      Actually, they did just that by messing with the company’s sign-up sheet for the conference.

      Reply ↓
  36. Elizabeth Proctor*

    Those who think this is egregious, would you have a different opinion if OP hadn’t signed themselves up under the coworker’s responsibility but instead had gone home, found the website, and signed themselves up that way?

    Reply ↓
    1. Ginger Cat Lady*

      I’m guessing that it wasn’t open to the public for registration like that, which is why they were sneaky and wormed their way into getting access through an injured coworker instead. And that sneakiness is why they were fired.

      Reply ↓
    2. Elle*

      Yes. Had they done that, they would have realized that they could not sign up that way, and probably realized they were not an appropriate attendee.

      Reply ↓
    3. Green great dragon*

      Yes, I’d have a different opinion because it’s a different situation. If there’s an option for public sign-up, OP could have used it and presumably wouldn’t have been thrown out the conference. Here there wasn’t an option for public sign-up, because it wasn’t open to the public.

      The egregious bit is adding themself to the list of company-approved attendees when they were not a company-approved attendee.

      Reply ↓
    4. Juicebox Hero*

      Yes, but still not a good opinion. After the grandboss said no, OP’s reaction was basically “but I wanna so I’m gonna and you can’t stop me!!!” That’s… really not an attitude you can throw around at work without repercussions.

      Reply ↓
    5. Dawn*

      If that had been the case, I’d have said that the firing was unnecessary.

      But as things stand, that’s not what happened. They knowingly took advantage of a senior coworker, to access a system they weren’t supposed to have access to, to put themselves on a list without permission that they had no business being on.

      Reply ↓
    6. Sneaky Squirrel*

      Yes, I would argue then that firing would be excessive. If there was a website that opened up conference registration to the public and signed up that way, then LW can make a case that the conference was open to everyone and the company cannot tell LW how to use their spare time.

      I suspect that LW discovered there was no public registration option or else they would have learned what the conference was about to make a more informed decision about whether to attend.

      Reply ↓
    7. Worldwalker*

      I suspect that was not possible, hence the sneaking around. I’m guessing it was an invitation-only conference.

      And if that had been an option, and thry’d done it, that would have merited a stern lecture, not immediate firing. The dishonesty and deliberate deception is the huge issue.

      Reply ↓
    9. Person from the Resume*

      Not nearly as much. That is the truly egregious part. And presumably he gave her a company approved list and asked her to enter it into a website or type it up and submit it on behalf of the company AND SHE ADDED HER NAME. Her doing the task fine; her not doing the task as instructed was the problem. She says she didn’t know but her actions still resulted in an unapproved person submitted in the company’s name.

      But it sounds like the LW would not be able to go sign up on the public website.

      Reply ↓
  37. Tony Howard*

    So a recent graduate, barely 8 months on the job wanted to go to a work conference, asked permission to go, the boss said “no”, and still they went anyway – using the justification that “I paid my own way, so my attendance will be welcome here nonetheless” ???! Wow. As the Brits would say, “what cheek!”

    You “dissed” your employer in at least three ways : Disrespect for their wishes, disobedience of their instructions and dishonesty in the conference registration process and vacation request.

    The only way this would NOT result in immediate termination would have been if your work was otherwise impeccable, unimpeachable; your potential and future development bright , and a manager who was willing to give you “one more chance”.

    Now you have a life lesson learned. And like all the best lessons – you learned it the hard way.

    Reply ↓
  38. Mango Freak*

    The part I could never get past (and that almost makes me think this was fake) is where LW was supposed to help the coworker with a *physical task* because of a broken foot–but instead said “you do all the physical stuff, and I’ll go do the part you didn’t need help with.”

    Also, registering staff for conferences is part of my own job, and I really don’t understand the logistics of this. If coworker was “swamped” because of this conference, handing it over to LW wouldn’t be simple. Giving LW his login and the list of names would be more effort than doing it himself–or else the registration process was more complicated than that, in which case he wouldn’t have handed it over to LW. And how did LW pay for everyone *else’s* registrations? I’m skeptical that she had purchasing power.

    Plus, while conference registration can be a little time-sensitive, it makes no sense to treat it like an IMMEDIATE task that would conflict with meeting set-up. I can only think that Coworker mentioned the conference in a LIST of things he was behind on, and LW took on the task without actual permission to do so.

    Reply ↓
    1. WorkerDrone*

      Yeah, this is a great point. On a re-read, none of this really makes sense. Carrying some laptops and documents to another floor was so time-intensive that it was preventing the co-worker from completing other work that day? Or the registration process for everyone was so urgent it had to be done exactly at the same time that the meeting set-up was taking place?

      And this co-worker, with the broken foot, totally signed on to OP doing the seated work while doing the carrying work themselves?

      Or, alternatively, OP did the carrying work and the co-worker still turned all the conference work over to OP to complete despite the fact that the supposed conflict was now eliminated?

      Moreover, how would OP easily take over the entire process of registering co-workers and making their arrangements? Is OP’s job even close to this kind of work, or is this completely outside of OP’s job description? How does the co-worker explain to HIS boss why he just handed a big chunk of his work over to someone else without checking in on that?

      If OP took over all the arrangements, does that mean OP was on the conference website and still didn’t bother to read about the conference literally at all and missed that it was executive level?

      If OP took over all the arrangements, does that mean OP didn’t realize they were only registering executive level employees?

      “I already paid for the hotel room and return flight, so I ended up staying there even though I couldn’t go to the conference.” – what did OP do during that time period? Just sitting alone in a hotel room hiding? Sightseeing and having a blast? That would be incredibly awkward considering she’s sharing a hotel WITH THE CONFERENCE ATTENDEES AND HER BOSS’S BOSS.

      Now that you’ve mentioned it, there are a lot of things in this that don’t add up.

      Reply ↓
    2. Saturday*

      I interpreted it as she did help him with the physical task of getting the laptops and papers into the meeting room, but that there was more to getting the meeting set up than that. I wasn’t assuming that it was a “meeting starts in 20 minutes” kind of thing. Maybe food needs to be ordered, people who came in from out of town need travel and parking arrangements.
      I mean, I have no idea of course, just a thought.

      Reply ↓
  39. Sneaky Squirrel*

    Where I keep getting hung up on is what LW thought was going to happen when they ran into their bosses at the conference. LW dishonestly added their name to the conference attendees list after they were told they cannot attend so LW surely knew that there was a good chance they would see their boss at the conference. Given that LW didn’t bring it up before hand, I suspect LW knew that they would get a bad reaction and kept it quiet from bosses hoping that their boss would offer forgiveness afterwards.

    Reply ↓
    1. Sneaky Squirrel*

      I mis-read that it was the manager’s manager who flagged it, so it seems less likely that LW would have shared it with their manager. Still underhanded the way LW approached it, but more understandable why it didn’t come up.

      Reply ↓
  40. coin_operated*

    Says in a snobby British accent: “You’re NOT in upper management? What you say? Entree level? Gross, a commoner, get out!.” Maybe this is why I work in anti-capitalist activism, and not for a corporation because this kind of meritocratic bull just pisses me off.

    Reply ↓
    1. CityMouse*

      This is a very strange take. It’s very normal to limit certain meetings to specific levels so you don’t have to spend time explaining basic concepts and so the industry can trust someone’s discretion based on experience and reputation.

      Reply ↓
      1. coin_operated*

        This wasn’t a meeting, it was a conference. Unless the LW is leaving out a disruption their behavior at the conference caused, I don’t see how their general inclusion would be that disruptive, outside of senior management not wanting to interact with an entry-level worker at this conference.. You probably think it’s a weird take because I’m someone who works to dismantle corporate meritocracy, so whatever entry-level workers do in the game to try to move up in what is an exploitative system, I’m generally down for it.

        Reply ↓
    2. Saturday*

      Seems a strange take to me too. Conferences are about sharing ideas. I think it’s reasonable to organize some conferences (not all) for people who have been in the field a while and have more experiences and knowledge to share. Academic conferences do this too sometimes.

      If you’re an author, the conversation is going to be different when you’re hanging out with other authors than when you’re with someone who is working on their first story. Each can be valuable experiences, but it’s okay to want both at different times.

      Reply ↓
  41. Junior Assistant Peon*

    I’m wondering how the hell this conference / top-secret meeting of industry insiders isn’t running afoul of laws about collusion.

    Reply ↓
      1. Junior Assistant Peon*

        By their reaction to an outsider showing up. The idea of a bunch of upper-level people getting together and talking to competitors in a secret, closed meeting seems illegal to me. I’ve been involved in conference planning in my industry, and we’re petrified of anything that could give the appearance of collusion.

        Reply ↓
        1. CityMouse*

          I think it depends really heavily on the industry. I don’t think it really changes anything for the LW’s situation, though.

          Reply ↓
        2. Coconutty*

          This is a bizarrely bad faith reading of a completely innocuous situation. There is nothing anywhere in the letter to suggest anything remotely illegal took place. It is completely normal and appropriate for people at very high levels and many years of experience/institutional memory in an industry to have opportunities to speak only with people of similar status. It’s also normal and appropriate to react to someone who isn’t supposed to be there by asking them to leave.

          Reply ↓
    2. Irish Teacher.*

      I don’t see any indication it was top-secret. If, for example, a student teacher were to show up at a principals’ conference, it wouldn’t be that it was secret. It would just be…really odd and show bad judgement on the part of the student teacher.

      I doubt there was anything top-secret. It’s more likely the reaction was to the fact that it seems like people were signed up by their companies and not themselves, so the assumption by everybody else there would have been that the higher-ups at the LW’s company chose to send her which makes it look like they don’t understand industry norms or what the conference was about.

      I don’t think there are any laws against being embarrassed that “now everybody in our industry thinks we are so badly organised that we sent a junior llama groomer to represent us at a conference about regulated the international llama trade.”

      It’s not necessarily that anything there is secret or hidden from the LW, just that she had nothing to contribute and everybody else there would assume her company thought she had which makes them look a bit out of touch.

      (Though there are conferences which are top-secret for a good reason. Our marking conferences are, as actual students’ work is referenced. It is all anonymous, but no way could one risk an outsider coming in and say photographing an example of a student’s work.)

      Reply ↓
  42. Captain Hastings*

    “I already paid for the hotel room and return flight, so I ended up staying there even though I couldn’t go to the conference.” – to me this is the most intriguing part of the letter.

    Did OP unleash any additional bursts of misguided initiative by trying to network/socialize with invited attendees?

    Did OPs ongoing presence (even in the background, in public parts of the hotel) read to the team from her company as continued insubordination, even if that was not the intent?

    Reply ↓
    1. WorkerDrone*

      I had the same question! What did OP actually DO during that time? How weird and awkward was it to stay in the hotel with the attendees after being refused entry to the conference?

      Reply ↓
    2. Sneaky Squirrel*

      I interpreted it as that LW didn’t continue to go to the conference afterwards but chose to stay in the area and “vacation”. However, valid argument that additional sightings in the public parts of the hotel could have added fuel to the fire.

      Reply ↓
  43. Sincerely Raymond Holt*

    Given the fact that the employee only realized she was way over the line when she was fired, it makes me wonder if Alison’s right and there were other incidents that led to the termination. How many other times in her short tenure did she overstep, continue to push something, or not clearly understand directions? I’m guessing this wasn’t a first-time offense.

    Even if it was, I do believe this is a justifiable termination. I’m in HR, so I deal with managers wanting to make decisions like this a lot, and I would 100% support that, even if this was a singular incident. She 1) asked to go and was told no, then she 2) offered to “help” her co-worker who she knew had access to the sign-up list to benefit herself, and then 3) showed up uninvited to this conference. I can only imagine the senior leadership’s reactions. They don’t have time for that nonsense and want her gone.

    I hope she learned from this.

    Reply ↓
  44. jane's nemesis*

    I feel so badly for this person. Obviously they shouldn’t have sneakily added themselves to the conference registration list, but it seems so clear to me that they were just trying to Show Initiative! Be a Go-Getter! Make A Good Impression! And they just failed so hard. I really hope they were able to come back from this and would love an update.

    Reply ↓
  45. Debby*

    While I feel for the LW, there are just so many questions that I have. And I hope she saw/sees them for herself.
    1. The fact that it was her “manager’s manager and “someone from upper management” that were discussing it should have given her pause for thought.
    2. While I can understand that “the company can’t send you” doesn’t sound like a definite no, it still should have given her some pause for thought.
    3. If she really didn’t know that the conference was only for Directors and Executive Management, then how did she know “it would be good for my career?” (her third reason for wanting to attend).
    4. When she signed up “along with everyone else”, how did she not notice that those who signed up were management? How did she not notice that there wasn’t a single co-worker at her level? That should have given her pause for thought. I mean, did she really think she was the only one at her level that wanted to go?
    5. And why keep it a secret? I’m not saying she needed to state her reason for asking for PTO, but I am asking why she never mentioned to anyone that she was going? I mean, she knew who was attending, and that they were going to see her at the conference, was she afraid they would tell her she couldn’t go if they knew ahead of time?
    And if she was keeping it a secret from her co-workers, why? She knew none of them were signed up to go, and never asked herself why not?
    The fact she kept it a secret tells me that she knew it wasn’t really something she should be doing.
    Just a few thoughts, and I hope that once some time passed that she understood why she was fired.

    Reply ↓
    1. Kevin Sours*

      “When she signed up “’along with everyone else’, how did she not notice that those who signed up were management? How did she not notice that there wasn’t a single co-worker at her level? That should have given her pause for thought. I mean, did she really think she was the only one at her level that wanted to go?”

      I feel a great deal like this is the wrong set of questions. Signing yourself up as part of the official company list without authorization and after having been told the company wasn’t going to send you is a serious breach of trust.

      Reply ↓
  46. Not A Manager*

    Every time I read this one, I think the OP is a very unreliable narrator. They are leaning into “oh I had no idea…”

    … that I really wasn’t invited
    … that I shouldn’t sign myself up via the company’s online access
    … that maybe I should *mention* to someone that I’m planning to attend

    And yes, they were able to quietly book PTO, make travel arrangements, etc.

    This sounds less like naivete gone awry and more like a serious case of Gumption, to me.

    Reply ↓
    1. Buffalo*

      Not to hassle the LW, but, agreed. I’m the kind of person who, if I wanted to go to a work event and the only barrier were that work wouldn’t send me, I’d pay out of pocket – even that piece is kind of weird, and I understand that I’m weird. But this involves communication. This involves saying to your boss, “Okay, I’ll pay my own way.” It involves saying, “I’m using PTO for my time out of the office for the conference I’m going to.” It takes serious effort to keep it under wraps that you’re going to a big work conference you’re not supposed to go to, and I find it hard to believe someone would put in that much effort to cover up that they were going unless they knew, on some level, they shouldn’t go.

      Reply ↓
  47. an infinite number of monkeys*

    We’ve had employees ask to take personal leave and pay their own way to attend educational conferences. We can’t allow that, because attending a conference where the content is relevant to your job, and where you network with other industry professionals on behalf of your employer, is *work.*

    Maybe we’re more stringent because we’re a government entity, but we would consider this to be accepting volunteer/unpaid labor from an employee.

    Reply ↓
    1. Kevin Sours*

      That feels a great deal like overreach. Attending professional conferences and networking on their own behalf can be of substantial benefit to an employee. Denying them the ability to do that while telling them it’s for their own good … doesn’t really sit right.

      Asking them to make it clear that they are not attending on behalf of the organization (for instance by not listing the organization in their sign up information) is a different story. And if the signing up without the endorsement of the organization isn’t possible then that’s also different.

      Reply ↓
  48. Rebekah*

    I’ve always felt that knowing LW industry might be very illuminating to understanding why this was such a big deal, and I’d bet my lunch money on security/confidentiality being a major issue as to why she was not just not invited but actively kicked out of the conference. Sure her sneakiness was bad but why does it seem all the conference attendees/organizers were horrified at her presence? I doubt it was mere snobbery. I have a sneaking suspicion this was probably something like “conference for senior VPs of national banks” or hedge funds. Or possibly government/military adjacent. Something where everyone present had a very, very high level of (official or unofficial) security clearance and having randos around could cause major issues.

    Reply ↓

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