open thread – July 28-29, 2023

by Alison Green on July 28, 2023

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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{ 1,177 comments }

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  1. my cat is prettier than me*

    My boss just told me that raises aren’t in the budget this year. We won’t even get a cost of living raise. We’re a start up, so I suppose it is to be expected, but I’m still disappointed.

    1. Hannah Lee*

      That’s frustrating and disappointing.
      Especially in a time when inflation is going on, so the same pay is not going as far.

          1. my cat is prettier than me*

            Ah. I’m not really sure. We’re currently working out a deal with a big customer, so hopefully that will keep us afloat for a while.

          2. pally*

            Precisely! Thank you!

            I’ve worked at a start-up and there were multiple years when no raises happened. We were fortunate to get through the tight times. Some places don’t.

            My Cat is Prettier Than Me- be mindful of the runway as best you can. Don’t be caught by surprise should things not work out.

    3. Cruciatus*

      I’d be disappointed too. I work for a “We Are” university and we don’t know if we’re getting our GSI this year, partially because of the state budget not being settled either. And they revamped all our job titles but then told us there was no money for salary increases through that either. So…just been very disappointing here all around as well.

    4. Qwerty*

      Been at a few startups and common items like annual COL didn’t become standard until the company had consistent revenue and was less dependent on invester funding.

      Instead, it was more tied to securing rounds of funding. A big influx of cash might trigger salary adjustments to get people closer to market rate across the board. Smaller rounds of funding resulted a one-time cash bonus.

      1. L. Ron Jeremy*

        I’ve also worked at a few startups and my last gave out 5% increases every year for the five years I worked there, all the time on investor cash.

    5. aubrey*

      Working at a startup I have had several years of 0% and several years of 25+% raises. For me it’s just part of the startup roller coaster. If they don’t reward people when things are going well though, that’d be a concern.

    6. Anon for This*

      Cynical enough to suggest you keep an eye on the boss’ social media, make sure the money isn’t going to maintain a certain lifestyle…

      1. juneybug*

        Obviously “Anon for This” and I have been readers for a long time as we both thought the same thing – we have read horror stories of bosses saying there is no money for raises and then buys a new car/vacation home.

  2. Earthworms*

    Has anyone successfully taken FMLA to manage mental health and burnout?
    Over the past year, my job has gone from an engaging challenge to completely overwhelming. I’ve discussed the issues with my manager and while she’s very understanding, the solutions we’re able to implement are either short-term band-aids (Harold can help out this afternoon) or much longer-term strategies (we can request new hires with anticipated start dates in mid-2024, but if X happens we’ll have to push that out to 2025…).
    I’ve been incredibly stressed and could feel myself getting burned out, so I took a 2 week vacation. Fully unplugged from work. Even so, halfway through the trip I became extremely upset about returning to work. The day I returned I cried on my way to the office. Since then, I haven’t been able to accomplish anything; I’ve just been sitting at my desk trying to look busy. I have a good reputation to fall back on, but people are starting to notice things falling through the cracks.
    I’ve tried to job search, but I feel so exhausted and unconfident in my skills that I can’t get through an application.
    For financial reasons, I can’t quit my job without something else lined up.
    I’ve been previously diagnosed with depression and anxiety, which I typically manage reasonably well. However, it’s clear that my work situation is exacerbating these conditions. Does anyone have experience using FMLA to handle something like this? And if I end up job searching while on FMLA, do you think I’d be burning a reference from my current job? Also open to any other advice or commiseration you might have!

    1. Knope Knope Knope*

      First off, I am so sorry you’re experiencing this. It definitely sounds like you need to leave this job one way or another soon. I didn’t take FMLA for burnout, but I did take leave while my spouse dealt with a mental health crisis. Here’s what I would suggest: If you have HR, ask about your company EAP and using whatever literature is available to you, see what supports your company offers. Mine offered a lot more than I realized. You don’t need to disclose that the reason you are looking into any of this is burnout or work related at all. Second, you mentioned being diagnosed with anxiety and depression. Do you have a current care team? Therapist/psychiatrist? If not, making getting that support system back in place a top priority. I know I personally became paralyzed by the whole situation, and was only able to start navigating my next steps once I had my support system in pace–and that started with a great therapist. Third, baby steps. You don’t need to jump to references yet. If you’re getting by looking busy and coasting on your reputation, why not just do that for a while, and use that time to start focusing on making a plan for yourself? Don’t do it alone!

      Good luck!

    3. Abby*

      I have always had a slight issue with anxiety, but after working for a toxic boss for two years, my anxiety was through the roof and I was having a lot of depression symptoms too. I was physically unwell and exhausted all the time. Couldn’t even relax at night or on the weekends, because I knew I had to go back to work. I ended up using FMLA to do a reduced work schedule. I had already been job hunting for a long time and continued to job hunt, and today is my last day for my two weeks notice.

      I was only getting paid for the time I worked, no medical leave, so that made things less complicated I think. My boss was toxic to begin with, so I wasn’t really worried about the reference aspect of it.

    4. Somehow_I_Manage*

      Your individual benefits will vary a lot. If I were your supervisor, I’d recommend checking to see if you have an employee assistance program, and contacting that provider. They’re there to support you in this situation and can help you find the right help and evaluate benefits.

      I recently had a staff member of mine go through something similar, and I learned a little bit more about the options:
      – FMLA protects your job under certain conditions. You’ll need to read the conditions- for example, one of them can be that you are under the continuing care of a health care provider.
      – FMLA does not provide pay, or guarantee pay. It guarantees you won’t lose your job.
      – Short term disability is another option if you have it (provided certain terms are met). And it does provide partial pay.

      I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. Things can get better!

      1. Sun in an Empty Room*

        Oh, I’ve always struggled a bit with the “It gets better” phrasing and really like the rewording of “Things can get better!” Thank you for sharing the phrase along with your advice above.

        1. TeaCoziesRUs*

          I also love the phrase, “May you have the best day available to you.” It’s courtesy of Beth Silvers of Pantsuit Politics. :)

    5. ferrina*

      I haven’t, but we had someone at my work who recently did. He took the full 12 weeks to deal with his health issues (I’m not sure if it was just burnout or if there was more compounded). He opted not to come back after 12 weeks.

      At my company, it would not have jeopardized the reference. Especially if you explained that you needed to make the change for health reasons– “I really loved working here and I’m so grateful for everything I’ve learned. Unfortunately, at this time I have ongoing health needs, and Other Place is the best option for accommodating those needs.”
      If your manager is already really understanding, this might be her perspective.

      Honestly, if you can do this, it sounds like you really should. It sounds like you really, really need a change, and this is best option right now.

    6. HE Admin*

      I haven’t personally done this but know someone who did so it is definitely possible! The tricky part can be getting the actual paperwork filled out; if you think your medical providers will do it, go for it. As for job searching during leave, it’s actually VERY common for someone to come back from leave and put in a notice to leave. Make sure you wouldn’t be on the hook for paying anything back if that is the case. But do make sure you get the time you need between too; if you find something new, I would try to negotiate a start after your leave runs out rather than cutting it short, if possible, so you can get that time to recuperate. I hope this works out for you!

    7. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      I know a former coworker of mine did, but she did a few days off inpatient treatment, followed by a few weeks of outpatient, then she had intermittent leave for the rest of the time.

      You didn’t mention (unless I missed it) that you’re currently in therapy. Either way you likely need to have a conversation with a therapy to get FMLA leave approved.

      I manage my depression pretty well on a day to day and can go serval months without needing my therapist, but every now and then I need to go back. Hang in there!

    8. I'm Just Here For The Cats!!*

      I am so sorry you are going through this. A family member went through something similar and I know how difficult it can be. It does sound like your manager is understanding. But it is hard to know if you take FMLA time off and you find a new job if that will affect your reference.

      Have you been able to ask your boss for more than short-term solutions besides the possibility of hiring new people in the distant future? Like could certain tasks be moved to other people permanently? Are there things that would be easier for you, like maybe working from home, or working reduced hours? Do you have a therapist or doctor that could help you brainstorm some ideas to give to your boss. Can you push back on any new projects or tasks? Is there a different position with less stress/ projects that you could move to? Like instead of being a senior teacup client representative could you move to a junior roll? That might affect finances but would it be something that would work for you?

      Not to give you anything else to worry about but you might also want to check with HR on what happens if you don’t come back from FMLA, just to make sure there wouldn’t be anything like health insurance premiums that you would have to pay back. It’s rare but I’ve heard of companies trying to do this with new parents.

      A good company will realize that what they are doing is not sustainable for you and wouldn’t fault you for getting a less stressful job. But we know that that is not always the case.

      Best of luck to you OP.

    9. not a hippo*

      My coworker did 2 ish years ago and it worked well for him. However he’s related to upper management by either blood or marriage so YMMV.

      But I say if you can afford it, do it. There’s only one of you in the world, there are plenty of jobs.

    10. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      Dude! I have so been there. I had to get out of there. Take care of yourself FIRST. If the environment was making you sick from breathing in dust or mouse poop, breaks would be great but insufficient. This may be that kind of environment. Or it may not, and you will be better equipped to know and to make a plan if you’re healthy and away from that place while you do it.

      If you tell your boss you can’t come back for health reasons would they support you in getting a new job?

      Captain Awkward has an excellent post about staying on your game at work (or at least looking like it) while depressed. Let me pull it up and I’ll post in a follow up comment.

    12. DivergentStitches*

      I think your first thing to do would go through your company’s EAP (If they have one) and find a therapist to help you recognize the sources of your burnout, then you’ll have backup to give to your company. You’ll need a diagnosis for FMLA I believe (someone please correct me if I’m wrong!)

    13. Maotseduck*

      I did (mental health, not burn out specifically) and I got fired for it. Had to fight to come back, came back on a Monday, that Friday I was gone.

      But my employer had a history of mistreating women (fire department). I hired an employment lawyer and she knew my boss by name.

      If your employer isn’t as bad, I’d say it would be worth it as a last resort to quitting. Look into EAPs and short term disability. At that job my EAP covered only a couple of sessions with a therapist, but I ended up going to a partial hospitalization program that put me in touch with the the therapy office I still go to now, over ten years later.

    14. Friendly Office Bisexual*

      Yes. I just returned from FMLA because I was experiencing severe anxiety and panic due to burnout and overwork. I’m very glad I did it, and I took the time to attend a mental health program.

      However, now that I’m back at work, I’m reminded of something my clinician told me at the program – “Burnout usually isn’t solved by time off.” In order to resolve burnout, you need a working environment that doesn’t contribute to burnout in the first place. I’ve tried to advocate with my manager for expanding our staff and taking projects off my plate, but so far I’ve seen very little change. In my case and maybe in yours, depending on how receptive your manager is, it might be time to look for a new job — because with burnout, the problem is often environmental and not personal.

      1. Friendly Office Bisexual*

        Also, I just want to add that I relate to SO much of your story and echo what others have been saying — it is not worth jeopardizing your physical or mental health for a job. Your first priority is your own health and well-being, and then you can start worrying about references once you’ve taken a step back to care for yourself.

      2. Aggretsuko*

        I have been considering FMLA myself. Unfortunately taking time off really doesn’t make me feel any better even when I’ve been out for two weeks, so it seems like a lot of drama and hassle to be gone only to well, not get better and the issue is that I can’t leave my job or get another one. I truly don’t think I’m ever going to “get better” at this point, to be honest, unless I won the lottery. And I’ve never played the lottery and probably never will :P

      3. Pajamas on Bananas*

        “Burnout usually isn’t solved by time off.” In order to resolve burnout, you need a working environment that doesn’t contribute to burnout in the first place.

        +1 to this

        My sibling took mental health FMLA last fall. They ended up leaving this month for related reasons.

    15. Past Lurker*

      I could have written this letter! Commiseration. My job said I need a doctor to examine me to determine if I’m eligible for FMLA for mental health issues, so you may need to get an appointment if it’s required by your employer.

    16. HR Exec Popping In*

      I’ve had an employee on my team take FMLA/medical leave for mental health and burnout related issues. In this specific case, he got the treatment he needed and developed new skills which resulted in him returning to work and he is doing well.

      A few things:
      – Taking FMLA should not be stigmatized regardless of the reason. Taking time for mental health needs is the same and taking time for back treatment.
      – you shouldn’t need to tell your manager why you need the time off, but HR will require medical documentation from a caregiver that indicates you are currently unable to perform the functions of your job.
      – If you need to find a mental health provider, check out your company’s EAP if they have one.
      – Not returning from a leave is not particularly unusual. It doesn’t mater if it is for mental health, physical health or parental bonding. Some people choose to not return from their leave for a variety of reasons and I’ve never seen it “burn a bridge”. Leave is a benefit that employers expect employees to take when they need it.

      Good luck and I hope you find treatment that helps you through this difficult time.

    17. Arglebargle*

      As a primary care provider I fill out FMLA forms all the time for patients with burnout/anxiety/depression related to their jobs. I do require them to at least go to counseling and have one visit with a psychiatry professional especially if I am not prescribing anti anxiety or antidepressant medications for them. But mental health is health! If you can afford it, do it.

      1. Tessellated Daisy*

        Primary care providers will actually do that? When I asked for that, years ago while going through so much anxiety stress that I couldn’t eat, the only thing the health professional would do is ask if I were pregnant, and prescribe more protein and Xanax. (Spoiler: neither helped, and I wasn’t pregnant.)

        1. *kalypso*

          Yes, non-terrible PCPs will. Some just don’t like forms or think things should be managed a particular way, but doing the paperwork for FMLA, ADA, workers comp, accommodations, for leave etc. is part of their job and they are meant to do it.

          But some will warn you off the system, and some just really hate paperwork. Depending on how and who they bill, some won’t do it because it’s not the most profitable use of their time, while others will jump straight to writing a certificate and ask about forms because then they can bill insurance at a higher rate for the appointment.

          Others will just do the sexist ‘you must be pregnant’ thing and that’s entirely them being terrible, not that it’s not their job or somehow your fault.

      2. Mrs C*

        [personal experience at the top, bottom line at the, well, bottom]

        I work in healthcare for a university medical center, in a specialty clinic. I am one of the people the FMLA paperwork often goes through between the provider and patient.

        My experience is that some PCPs are comfortable filling this out, and others really want you to have a specialist do it (regardless of whether it’s mental health or podiatry or whatever). It’s generally because the PCP feels underqualified to write things adequately.

        Also, often even the specialty providers are just as lost as the patient as to what to write that will get you what you want with your HR! HR will almost always try to interpret what’s written to the benefit of the company, with as little time away and as few changes as possible. (Worse with intermittent leave than blanket time off, but still….)

        My spousal-type and I recently needed to file for intermittent leave for the offspring-type’s ongoing needs, some of which have a mental health component. The specialist asked me to send the request through the portal, and spell out exactly what we were asking for, so she could write the paperwork as close to that as was reasonable. We did, she did, and we got good results from HR.

        BOTTOM LINE(S):

        Get the paperwork to the right provider, and don’t take it personally if that’s not the PCP. Be clear with the provider exactly what you’re asking for: vague requests get vague results.

        And finally, allow at least a week to get the papers back! Many practitioners only sign paperwork when they’re in the clinic where you were seen. They may have more than one clinic, or have research, hospital, or teaching duties–myriad reasons to only be in clinic 1-2 days/week!

    18. Mandie*

      Muster up all the strength and confidence you can and find a new job now. Seriously. I just changed jobs in February, and I was so stressed and burnt out that I had panic attacks and an IBS flare the first few months of the new job, but I was able to manage it without anyone really noticing. I’m now 6 months into the new job, with a very manageable workload, no drama, and a hybrid remote schedule. My health is recovering and I care about work again. I can tell I made the best decision for myself, even though the transition was painful.

      Let me add this disclaimer: it totally, totally sucks that our strategy for dealing with a toxic, soul-sucking job has to be forcing ourselves through a very stressful process to find a new job. It’s unacceptable that work can harm us this much and the only hope we have is to use what’s left of our health and sanity to try to find new work. I am by no means dismissing your feelings, because I’ve been exactly where you are. But for me, the short-term pain was worth getting out once and for all.

    19. M2*

      I’m so sorry! My sibling took FMlA for mental health. Although her work let her bank 6 months of sick time so she used 12 weeks of that to pay out her FMLA. That being said in her handbook if she didn’t come and do another 30 days then she would forfeit her vacation days. So read your office policies.

      She said she’d look for work during that time, but didn’t and also NO ONE covered her work for her so when she got back she had 3 months of work and a big event 2 weeks later. basically if she didn’t get it done well there goes the promotion and youre that much closer to a PIP.

      So just read your handbook, talk to HR and reply job search when you’re away in case you come back and no one has covered you at all. Because that seemed to cause her even more stress.

    20. Anon for this*

      I did – I took about ten weeks off with a combination of short-term and long-term disability with FMLA protection. It started off for insomnia, then once I could sleep it switched to anxiety for the official reason. After I could think straight I was able to really figure things out with my partner. I ended up returning for one week under very controlled conditions to do some knowledge transfer and resigning. I had a couple colleagues who also took leave for similar reasons, most of whom went back for longer than I did. None of us took career hits or lost references, although everyone’s at other companies now. There were some serious structural issues going on. Everyone who did it successfully had great, supportive managers and leaders. It wouldn’t have worked in some other teams.

      If you’re in therapy, your provider can write the letters needed. Be prepared to do all the paperwork twice – if they outsource this the FMLA and disability processes are completely firewall from each other and don’t share information. They’re not trying to make it harder. When I got frustrated or didn’t understand what was going on the folks who answered the phone were super kind and helpful.

      I completely crashed once all my access was turned off. All the stress I’d been carrying made itself known and I basically did nothing for two weeks. Processing all the emotions absolutely sucked both physically and mentally. But after I got through that things started to get better.

    21. 30-50 Feral Hogs*

      Haven’t taken FMLA but what you wrote in could have been me like 9-10 months ago. I thought a vacation would help, but I had been so stressed that when I finally got to the vacation I ended up spending about half of it very sick. This ended up happening on two separate vacations, one of which was after I switched jobs!

      Anyways, someone above said that time off won’t solve burnout, and they are correct. You have to remove the source of stress. I ended up finding a new job that was technically a lateral move, but as I discussed with a family member, doing less work for same pay is a raise. I am approaching 6 months in and while I still struggle with motivation sometimes, I am improving all the time and finding ways to make space for myself both on vacation days and in my regular life so that I can rest, recover, and slowly let the burnout heal. It’s been harder than I expected tbh but it’s so much better than staying in my crazytown job for longer, which was affecting my mental and physical health.

      1. Pringle*

        I did this in the past. I took the FMLA paperwork to my PCP who asked what I needed time off wise and I told her. she put “severe situational stress and anxiety” as the reason but could have changed the wording.
        I submitted it right to HR. due to confidentiality rules my boss and colleagues were not given the details or reason, only that I was on health leave. I did not share with them anything beyond the need to take leave due to a health issue, which was entirely true.

        I looked for another job while on leave, and put in my resignation while on leave, standing to return for a week after my leave ended to button things up before my resignation.

        good luck to you. I hope a break will bring clarity and the pause will help you consider next steps. you deserve a reasonable and manageable job that doesn’t make you cry!

    22. Dragonfly7*

      Commiseration from me. I wrote in about something similar a few weeks ago, decided with my medical provider to try just adjusting medication, and ended up breaking down crying and unable to stop two days in a row at work this week. I started the application process for either short-term disability or, if not approved, a month of unpaid personal leave, yesterday. Although the ultimate solution is probably different work, this gives me time to work with an EAP therapist who specializes in career and workplace issues to figure out either how to cope where I am or what a long-term sustainable job should look like.

    23. Lobsterman*

      My spouse used FMLA for burnout in 2020. It worked exactly like all other FMLA – HR gets documentation, and the gears turn.

    24. ER*

      You can absolutely use FMLA. I had to take a month off earlier this year for the exact same reason. You don’t have to disclose your medical condition to your boss, nor can they ask you about it. Talk to your psychiatrist about it along with your HR. Temporary disability is a bit more challenging since certain standards have to be met. That’s also a conversation you need to have with your psychiatrist.
      Go ahead and job search if you need to. Your employer doesn’t need to know you’re looking. You can’t fully heal until you get out of there, but taking a “time out”, getting extra mental health care and taking care of yourself will help immensely.

  3. Question for public employees*

    Is it normal for public employees to have to pay for their own parties?
    Years ago, I worked as a state employee at a public university. Since we couldn’t use taxpayer funds to pay for parties, every year for our holiday party, the dean paid out of her own pocket (about $3,000) to give our office a wonderful meal out.
    Now I’m a federal employee, and there are similar legal restrictions prohibiting us from using taxpayer funds on food. However, when I joined this team last year, I was taken aback when I was told that anyone who wanted to attend the holiday party would have to pay $20! Instead of leadership splitting the cost of the event, we have to pay for our own party. I’ve always thought of these as employee appreciation events, but apparently they don’t appreciate us enough to spend any money on us.
    Planning is currently underway for this year’s holiday party, and as it stands, we’ll again be asked to pay our own way.
    Public employees: is this normal? Are you used to paying for your own parties? I’m trying to decide how much to rock the boat on this.
    Thanks!

    1. Immortal for a limited time*

      Yes, this is normal. I’m a state employee. If you want to work somewhere that spends money on things that are not directly in service to your constituents/customers/members, you’ll need to get a job in the private sector.

    2. Peachtree*

      Curious: why do you think your boss should pay $3,000 every year out of their own pocket? It seems like you had a great boss who volunteered to do this, but surely that’s not reasonable …?

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Right? I’d be so horrified that I’d rather we forgo the party all together than to have my boss spend several thousand on this.

      2. another manager*

        Agreed, oof! Glad they could manage it but I’m a public sector boss who’s a sole earner in the household, getting donuts once in a blue moon for my staff is a splurge. I appreciate them, don’t get me wrong, but I’ve also got bills!

      3. Observer*

        Curious: why do you think your boss should pay $3,000 every year out of their own pocket?

        Good question.

        OP, your boss’ salary is public information. Unless they are very high up in the hierarchy, $3k (and it would be more now) is almost certainly a LOT to expect them to pull out of their pocket each year. And if they are that high up that they are making enough money that it wouldn’t be a difference? It wouldn’t be that little because that would mean that they have far more people to pay for.

      4. A nonny mouse*

        See, this is the kind of thing that’s expected of an academic institution because we’re encouraged to create a welcoming, you’re-important-to-us image so that the public gets the impression that we’re taking care of students and their education is a priority (and so that faculty and staff want to stay). In return, admins and faculty (and staff, to a lesser extent) are encouraged to answer emails at 11pm and buy things out of their own pocket when the budget can’t pay for things, like parties. The Dean was very generous, and not every Dean would do this, but some would consider it money well-spent to project that welcoming image.

        At a federal institution where the job is just a job, there’s generally no expectation to create such an image, so there’s no unwritten expectation to use your own money to pay for things like parties.

        I know people who left academia for a federal job because of this difference in expectations and work-life balance creep.

        1. anomnom*

          State university employee over here, just wallowing in these hard truths. Your comment should be pinned at the top as a warning to others.

          Don’t forget the repercussions that come with refusing to be a team player by spending your “free” time and own money on a dish for the Appreciation Potluck.

          1. A nonny mouse*

            To be fair, I generally like my job, and I hopefully am considered a welcoming person and mentor to students and juniors. I have stayed in my job for a reason.

            That doesn’t mean I am not annoyed when I have to spend my own money on hand soap for my lab because I can’t spend federal grant money on lab housekeeping supplies. Or I have to pay for cake to celebrate a student lab worker’s graduation out of my own pocket.

      5. Meep*

        I’ve bought morale boosters out of my own pocket and pay for an annual BBQ for staff, former staff, and their families (roughly ~20-25 people), and even I am horrified by this being an expectation. People can do with their money as they please. No one else is entitled to it!

    3. PABJ*

      Typical for government jobs in the U.S. Lots of laws about how money can be spent and employee parties typically aren’t allowed expenses to spend taxpayer money on.

      1. CanadianJessie*

        Typical for Government jobs in Canada too, for what it’s worth.
        (I really miss my amazing private sector parties sometimes! But not enough to go back!)

    4. ruthling*

      yep, this is very typical. it’s an unfortunate side effect of the news riling up the masses every time staties get anything.

    5. H.Regalis*

      Yeah, totally standard. When I worked for city government, we had to pay for our end-of-the-year party. It sucks, but it’s normal.

    6. Colette*

      That seems normal to me.

      (I spent most of my career in high tech, and we also paid for a portion of our parties – which I understand, because if people don’t pay, they don’t feel the need to commit or cancel.)

      1. There You Are*

        Yeah, I’ve only ever been a private sector employee and the only role where I didn’t have to pay at least a portion of my party / holiday meal was when I was in outside sales. But when I was an IT person, we always had to pay something for a ticket to the party.

    7. PunkArseLibrarian*

      We’re a City org here and we handle parties by just doing potlucks – usually by department as that’s more manageable, though we have done org-wide retirement parties the same way.

      I would feel REALLY weird if admin paid for a part out of their pocket, even if they could do it w/out financial stress. I’m not entirely sure WHY I would feel so weird, but I would!

      1. Sleepy in the stacks*

        Librarian as well, we also potluck. Never even considered the city paying for it. Any where I’ve ever worked has always been potluck or pizza funded by employees. For retirements and the like, we have to option to pitch in, but aren’t expected to.

      2. AnonAcademicLibrarian*

        We potluck and have a small “sunshine fund” that is all donations with a dash of petty cash.

    8. Andy*

      I’m not actually sure what a boat rock would achieve. No complaining will convince me personally to pay for a party for a whole department, and I for sure wouldn’t suggest that my boss pay out of HER pocket. What purpose could it possibly serve is my question? I suppose if it really makes you uncomfortable, which I could abs. see, and you don’t want ppl to feel pressured to pay anything, you could advocate for an afternoon off instead of a party.

      1. Samwise*

        May not be able to give an afternoon off like that either.

        State employee here. We cannot be given extra PTO or time off; salaried exempt so we can’t earn / use comp time. The office is supposed to be open during regular business hours, M-F, 8-5.

        When our boss wants to give us an afternoon off, we’re assigned to work on “professional development” or “long term goals” and told to do it outside the office “so we can really reflect and concentrate.” Then our boss stays at the office so TPTB aren’t in a snit that the doors are closed.

    9. Former Retail Manager*

      Federal employee here, and yes, this is very normal. How would feel knowing your tax dollars went to pay several thousand dollars, or more, for a holiday party for employees? It’s all about perception. Do not rock the boat on this at all. You will appear very out of touch with public employee norms. If you are ever fortunate enough to have a govt manager that pays out of pocket for anything for their employees, consider yourself fortunate. Those managers are very rare.

      Maybe another way of looking at it though. At my office, we will either all go out to a holiday lunch and we each pay for our own meal, or we do a potluck type thing and everyone brings something. The manager will usually spend a bit more than others, but we all pay out of pocket to make whatever dish we bring. Depending on what you choose to make, you could easily spend $20 on ingredients (not to mention your time) to make enough for even a moderate sized group. A $20 lunch in my area is also not uncommon. Sooo…is $20 really that bad assuming that the food provided is good?

    10. UKDancer*

      I know a number of UK public sector employees (including an ex) all of whom paid for their own parties. So if you want to have a Christmas lunch you pay for it. My friend works for a Government agency which has a large Christmas party and you have to buy a ticket if you want to attend. It’s the way things are in the public sector as a rule.

    11. Pretty as a Princess*

      Yup, this is the norm.

      When I was working for one specific federal organization, we had a little local honor system snack bar in the office. (Fridge stocked with sodas, a counter of chips and candies and whatnot.) There was a rotating duty roster for the junior people in the org to rotate who was in charge of the little cantina (stocking, counting the cash, putting it in the safe), and the proceeds above cost went to help defray the cost of things like parties and going away gifts.

    12. Jaid*

      Federal employee here. Ain’t no slush fund to keep employees happy and while it’s generous if management wants to pony up for pizza or even donuts, that’s money out of their pocket.
      Thank you to all the concerned citizens who want their taxpayer dollars to go to funding the org’s mission and not towards glazed and a cup of joe.

    13. Annony*

      Don’t rock the boat on this. You can’t force other people to treat you. You already know that they would have to pay out of their own pocket. You don’t know their financial situation and it is not their financial responsibility to make employees feel appreciated by hosting a party. It is their responsibility to provide verbal encouragement and appreciation, to advocate for you and to make sure you have full access to development opportunities and department resources. They should not have to personally pay for anything for you.

    14. Governmint Condition*

      It’s normal. However, sometimes the public employees’ union will be willing to provide funding to pay for some portion of the party. This happens where I work, so tickets are more reasonably priced. This will vary from union to union, and can get complicated where different employees are represented by different unions. (Which can result in different ticket prices based on which union you’re in.)

    15. Irish Teacher*

      I’m a teacher in Ireland and it is very much the norm for staff parties to be self-funded and for everybody to pay their portion.

      I’ve never really thought of them as employee appreciation events, just as a group of colleagues getting together to socialise outside work.

    16. Artemesia*

      Why would you expect the manager to pay out of pocket for an expensive party? their salaries are not exactly ginormous either. This is annoying but totally standard. Govt jobs can’t even provide coffee.

      1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

        My husband, a government employee, had one supervisor who did an employee appreciation dinner for all his good-sized staff AND their significant others. The food was bought by, cooked by, and served by him and his family. He was truly one of a kind.

    17. KLV*

      Yep, just echoing that it’s super normal and that not only will rocking to boat not achieve anything, you’ll be taking an unnecessary hit to your reputation/capital.

      For all that this site likes to poke at potlucks, government workers thrive on them (well, in my experience, haha), so to be fair, for me, a potluck would be more normal versus paying $20 to go out somewhere. A lot of places might have a sunshine club where everyone donates money throughout the year and then that pot is used for holiday parties or cards/flower for the employees.

      Also just in my experience (which is definitely dependent on my field/sector/agency), but I have not worked at a unit where the director is comfortable enough to drop $3,000 every year! Financially and culturally! Like if one of my previous directors did that, everyone would’ve be super weirded out.

      1. Me...Just Me*

        In my state, you can look up what state employees make. And while some directors have a pretty nice paycheck … it’s not like they’re making anywhere near what they’d be making in the private sector. $3k or more is a lot. If the OP isn’t even willing to pay $20 for their own dinner, I find it really weird that they’d be upset & expect someone else to pay 150x that amount. Their boss’s boss isn’t making a salary 150x their own.

        1. AnonRN*

          Yes, my manager and I are both state employees and I (hourly employee) make more annually than she does. I do a lot of OT and she is exempt. I would never expect her to pay out of pocket like this. I think it’s nice that she gives each staff member (about 80) a small holiday gift including a handwritten card.

    18. Sparkle Llama*

      I work in local government and we historically had a rotating committee in charge of fundraising for and planning the holiday party. They would plan hot dog cookouts, silent auctions, jeans days, vacation raffles (vacation time donated by staff) to raise funds for it. The party was in the evening off site and included a dinner and drink tickets for staff, plus ones had to pay a small amount. Our new head thought this was crazy since so much time was spent on fundraising and it didn’t really appreciate the staff. So now we have a breakfast hosted by senior management where they cook pancakes, eggs, etc for staff. I am not sure if the money is coming from senior staff contributions or government money. I think government money is a possibility since it is on site and there is no alcohol.

      I have also worked in a local government small enough where we could do a potluck party at someone’s house (25-30 people). Most people chipped in $5 or so to get a thank you gift for the host.

      1. All Het Up About It*

        Yeah – I think the all the people chiming in that it’s “normal not to have state/federal funds pay for this” – aren’t actually reading the OP’s question. They aren’t questioning that. Sounds like they are more used to your second experience than the first.

        OP – I’ve seen it both ways. Same in the Non-profit world, which doesn’t have the same regulations for spending on staff as government budgets, but there is a perception from donors that you have to be cognizant of. So I’ve seen potluck, chip in parties, and I’ve seen SeniorStaff/Board members chip in and pay set up. It very much depends agency from agency.

        1. Jojo*

          The OP explicitly asked if it was normal and if she should rock the boat to somehow make her boss pay for parties out of pocket.

    19. I'm Just Here For The Cats!!*

      For state employees it is normal. I work at a state university and we were talking about our annual holiday party. It’s not much, we aren’t closed but there are no students on campus so we just have a big potluck, play games etc. My coworker has worked at lots of different universities in his many years and he said in a previous place they all contributed to a fund and that was used for any events. I knew that many of my coworkers wouldn’t feel comfortable with that. Many were trying to talk with admin to get more pay. I was in charge of the planning for that year and so I nixed that idea.

      It’s one thing to contribute if you feel like it, like buying something little for everyone or bringing in treats. But there is something that rubs me the wrong way when we have to contribute or it is not mandatory but you feel guilty not contributing.

    20. theletter*

      Maybe this is just because I live in a high col, but $20 sounds like a good deal for a party to me, assuming there’s food and drink.

      1. Question for public employees*

        There’s food and non-alcoholic beverages. If you want to order alcohol, you have to pay for that separately.

        1. Irish Teacher*

          Honestly, any staff party I’ve been to, we’ve paid more than that just for the meal. The norm here is to book a restaurant. Generally, the cost is €20-€50 per person for the meal and then people buy alcohol, etc themselves. Sometimes the school will put money “behind the bar” for one drink per person. (either alcoholic or non-alcoholic depending on each person’s preference). $20 for food and non-alcoholic beverages would seem like a pretty good deal to me.

          I mean, that’s just my experience and this seems like an area on which norms massively differ, but that’s been true in pretty much every school I’ve worked in.

      2. HahaLala*

        That was my thought too! $20 for a nice dinner out is a steal. Most ballrooms or event spaces start closer to $40-$50 per person, plus room rental fees, entertainment fees, etc.

        I wonder if the higher ups are partially funding it to keep the per person cost low & accessible to all their employees.

    21. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      Super normal. Expected, honestly. Your dean paying $3k out of pocket to give you a meal out was INSANELY generous.

      We pretty much always just do a potluck party. And $20 is a pretty reasonable price if you’re not doing a potluck–it’s hard to get a nice meal out for much less than that these days. Remember, your leadership (not sure how many rungs up from you they are) might not make a significant amount more than you do.

    22. Question for public employees*

      Thanks, everyone. This is all helpful information. Follow-up Q for anyone still reading this thread: in cases where you pay for your own parties, are your interns and entry-level employees expected to pay their own way as well, or does your leadership pay for them?

      1. Stevie Budd*

        In our federal office, the contribution is lower for lower level employees but they do still pay something.

      2. Elle*

        That’s crappy thing about this situation. I worked in a non profit that did this and charged a lot more than $20. I really tried to impress on my staff that it was an optional party but some who were on a tight budget felt obligated to go. I never went due to the cost and was vocal about it. Management never did anything to deter the party or its cost.

      3. Governmint Condition*

        Where I work, there are sometimes different prices based on salary grade. Also, some supervisors are known to have bought tickets for their lower-paid employees. (Be careful about this – if one boss does it and another doesn’t, there can be a union grievance for unequal benefits for employees at the same salary grade. We’ve had some employees who have gone through the trouble to do this.)

      4. Irish Teacher*

        When I was a student teacher, we were asked to pay half what the rest of the staff were. I think our school asks student teachers to pay the same as the rest of us, but not sure.

        New staff definitely pay the same as everybody else. I do think it’s fair to give a reduced rate to interns/work experience students. I wouldn’t expect a principal or manager to pay for them though.

      5. KLV*

        Entry-level, yes. Intern, dependent on manager. I think it’s like, entry-level is still like an actual employee so, would be expected to pay their way. With interns, I’ve seen it both ways, but it’s always been from the direct supervisor and not from like the upper level management/director.

        And it seems like your place does not have a sunshine club, so this isn’t really useful to you, but it’s usually generally acknowledged that more senior people will contribute more to the fund, but as in like, putting in a $10 or $20 bill instead of some $1’s or a $5.

      6. Former federal intern*

        When I was a federal intern, our office paid the cost for parties for interns and interns did not have to chip in for water (our office had to pay for our water cooler, in an office that did not have any other option for drinking water, because for some reason GSA wouldn’t pay for that). When I managed interns at the municipal level, I paid for them. I tend to think interns should not have to pay for these things.

        As a lower level employee, I paid, which I think is fine as long as costs are reasonable/attendance is optional.

      7. carcinization*

        My profession has paid internships, so yes, when I was on internship, I definitely paid my own way at the Christmas party and the end-of-work-year party. This was around 15 years ago so it may have been a bit less than $20, but more than $10.

      8. Slightly Less Evil Bunny*

        Fed gov contractor here. Where I am, every govie and member of the military pays the same regardless of rank or grade.

        As a contractor, if I want to attend any work site parties, I have to use PTO in addition to paying the party fee. Totally understandable, but it means we don’t typically attend.

      9. Person from the Resume*

        In the military, the higher ranks usually had a higher ticket price. Not familiar with having interns.

        I think the entry level employees are tricky, though. You’ll usually have more of them than the higher levels so them getting in free would throw the budgeting off.

      10. Fed*

        The rest of us always chipped in more so the interns and lower paid folks would not have to pay anything. And once in a while if someone knew through the grapevine that someone else was struggling, they would quietly pay for that person too, although on paper the person who was being paid for might on paper make more money than the people we would typically “treat.”

    23. GloryB*

      Yes, this is absolutely normal. What’s weird here is expecting a manager or managers in the public sector to spend thousands of dollars of their own money on a party for you! Complaining about this anywhere I’ve ever worked would get you, at best, looked at very oddly.

      This is perfectly normal and common. Your expectations are out of whack. Time to recalibrate before you damage your rep.

    24. Observer*

      Public employees: is this normal? Are you used to paying for your own parties? I’m trying to decide how much to rock the boat on this.

      This is completely normal. And the amount to rock the boat is exactly *zero*.

      Think about what you want to demand – that an individual pull a significant amount of cash from *their personal funds* to pay for a party for you. I can’t imagine any workplace where that would go over well.

      I’ve always thought of these as employee appreciation events, but apparently they don’t appreciate us enough to spend any money on us.

      That sounds about right – and exactly as it should be. Individuals, even well compensated ones, should not be expected to shoulder business expenses. And that is exactly what an “employee appreciation” even is. This is not about how leadership *personally* feels – nor should it be! It’s unfortunate that it’s forbidden for tax money to be spent on employee appreciation, but that’s what you are dealing with when you are a government employee. It’s not the top of the list, but it’s part of why some people don’t want to work in government.

      1. Governmint Condition*

        In the private sector, the company shows its appreciation by paying for the party (not the managers/supervisors themselves). So a question I often hear is “what is the point of such a party if you’re paying for it yourself?” I don’t have a great answer to that because, when you think about it, you’re just spending time with the same people you’re with every day, except you get to eat rubber chicken with music playing in the background. When you think about it that way, it’s harder to justify the cost.

    25. EllenD*

      I was in UK civil service and it was accepted that you paid for parties/Xmas meals that you attended. If you were lucky the management team would pay for drinks (including alcohol) up to a certain limit. Some places what was paid for the meal was on a sliding scale with a nominal amount from the most junior admins on lowest wages and the senior management paying significantly more. However, with public sector pay freezes and London prices, senior management, in later years, were less able to pay a large share of the costs – child care, mortgages, etc. Pot lucks worked well for team days.

    26. Happy Friday!*

      Totally normal. And in my experience it’s actually standard practice. I’ve worked at the city, county, state and now federal levels and always had to pay or contribute for parties. Usually somewhere between $10 and $50 depending on the type of event. When we do a potluck those that didn’t want to bring a dish could still donate cash for someone to pool it and purchase items. I’ve definitely had supervisors pitch in and contribute beyond what the employees did but never had one person or even just managers cover the entire thing.

    27. Policy Wonk*

      Yes, this is standard. If this is an internal party, we usually have a graduated system where those at higher grades pay more than those at lower grades. If it is external – meaning you are able to invite key contacts from other agencies, the amount contributed includes a certain number of guests (usually five for us). If you want to invite more than that there is an additional charge per head. As others have noted, its not appropriate to use taxpayer funds for this.

    28. ONFM*

      I work for a municipality, and our holiday parties are always potluck because the city cannot spend money on us. Usually the top-level managers will split the cost of something large (a few pans of chicken or barbecue), and everyone else brings a homemade side or dessert. That’s a lot less than $20 a head, though.

    29. Person from the Resume*

      Absolutely yes.

      I was in the military. I’m pretty sure all the parties had tickets. In squadrons, there was often a club who did fundraising to help defray the cost of the party.

      It would wild to me to expect the boss to cover the cost of the party. Many of my boss’s were Lt Col or Colonels married with kids. They made more than me but were not throw a thousand dollar Christmas party wealthy.

    30. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      None of my private employers over 35+ years have ever paid for a party, whether holiday or retirement or any other party type. Never had free coffee or snacks either.
      This was in several European countries, R&D engineering. Interesting that US work culture has widespread food freebies, quite a contrast to European bennies.

      No job had pot lucks, thank the goddess!
      For a team party, we’d each pay for ourselves (no bill splitting) and the manager would normally pay for 1 round of drinks.
      For a department (115 people) the last holiday party I attended before retiring was €25 per head including 1 glass of wine and multiple water refills. We rarely had interns and they were paid enough that €25 was easily affordable.

      Parties at all jobs were optional, very informal dress (as in the workplaces), employees only, no guests.

    31. Throwaway Account*

      I’m more shocked that the boss paid than I am that you have to pay your own way!

      You can check salaries at public institutions. You might find that boss had a pay high enough to expect them to host a party like that.

      At old job, we had a great friends of the library org that paid for food for us!

    32. Fed*

      Totally normal. In my 30 years as a fed employee, I think maybe twice management paid out of their own pocket for a party. Not because they were stingy! But they have their own families etc. They did, however, on the down-low often pay for lower-paid folks who couldn’t afford to come to parties — as many of us did, to make sure those folks could attend too.

    33. Longtime Lurker*

      Federal employee, and yeah, totally normal. In our office, we have a sliding scale so that the secretarial staff pays 15-20, and the SES pays 100 or more. Informally, the managers tend to hang out by the (cash) bar not just to hang out by the bar but to treat people off-the-books.

    34. Pajamas on Bananas*

      I think it might depend on region and type of government. I’ve only worked in municipal government in Chicagoland (never Chicago itself) and Northwest Indiana. In small offices the elected would pay for one-two staff meals per year from their own pocket at the normal lunchtime. At my last job in a large office the elected, the deputy, and the managers split the cost as a reward when we received confirmation from the state that our annual deadlines were met. Sometimes this was an after work event. My current job I think has a better balance for the boss. We do birthday lunches, and the boss covers the birthday person’s meal. I would definitely be disappointed if this went away, but the other benefits are so good that I can’t imagine this being the thing I’d get caught up on, unless they were also a 401k org rather than a pension org. Definitely good to know this isn’t normal anywhere else.

    35. TeaCoziesRUs*

      DoD here. Not only is the ticket cost for the holiday expected, we would NEVER expect our senior leaders at the squadron level to pay for it themselves. In the line of “Many hand make light work,” the more people who pay, the nicer a party we can have. We do subsidize the tickets for our lower-ranked enlisted, and the unit Booster Club fundraises throughout the year to provide some fun prizes.

      Yes, it is employee appreciation, but it’s more in the light of we appreciate some social time with each other. :)

  4. Captain Vegetable ( Crunch Crunch Crunch)*

    Amusing, quirky, incidental occupational hazards?

    In my job, every once in a while molasses becomes a topic of consideration. And inevitably, I get “Potatoes and Molasses” from Over the Garden Wall stuck in my head for the rest of the day.

    1. nope*

      People reading outloud from a text or written format, especially when they haven’t given us the text beforehand. Get ready to break your hands, or give up and only do the broad strokes because it’s impossible otherwise.

    2. LB33*

      Since it comes up as a topic, if you’re looking for a molasses related anecdote, you should look into the Great Molasses Flood that happened in Boston in 1919. If you’re not familiar, a molasses tank exploded and because it turns out molasses isn’t so slow, it killed 21 people!

      1. ScruffyInternHerder*

        Recommend “Not Past It” podcast, 1/12/22 “The Sweet, but Deadly, Disaster” as it addresses this!

        1. Shiba Dad*

          “Tasting History with Max Miller” on YouTube did an episode on the Great Molasses Flood as well.

          1. vombatus ursinus*

            For a very quirky take, you might also like the Puppet History episode on the Great Molasses Flood on YouTube!

            1. TeaCoziesRUs*

              The I Survived kids’ book series also has an excellent book about the great molasses flood, as well as other insane historical tidbits – Grizzly and shark attacks, Mt St Helen’s and hurricane, lots of different battles and wars, etc.

        1. Observer*

          Well, *in January* it might be, if it’s outdoors in a colder climate. Because *cold* molasses (like *cold* honey*) tends to sort of congeal and not run.

          Of course, in the case of the Great Molasses Flood, that didn’t matter because when you’ve got that much pressure, the physics are totally different.

          1. AceInPlainSight*

            The physics aren’t totally different, it’s just that the viscosity of a liquid depends on both temperature and shear (aka how fast it’s getting stirred/ how much pressure is being put on it). Molasses is basically sugar water with added polymers, so if you put it under enough pressure, eventually it’ll run just like water!

            This has been your pedantic moment from a grad student who spends Way Too Much Time measuring the viscosity of liquids as a function of temperature and stir speed.

    3. Juicebox Hero*

      I spend my day shuffling papers around, and I’m clumsy, and so I have gotten epic paper cuts. Manila folders and plastic binder dividersin particular can turn into Ginsu knives without warning.

      1. Arglebargle*

        YES! When I worked in publishing I handled piles of paper regularly and learned early to moisturize the heck out of my hands to prevent paper cuts.

        1. Irish Teacher*

          Additional bonus to our correcting being online this year is no paper cuts. The old answer books had rather sharp edges to their covers and you could guarantee a number of paper cuts each year. And probably a broken nail or two packing up the bags.

    4. ferrina*

      I do a lot of research on random industries and topics. It inevitably leads to the weirdest ads.

    5. PunkArseLibrarian*

      (no comment – I just wanted to say I love your username and will now have that song stuck in my head all day! :) )

    6. Warrior Princess Xena*

      Most of the year, no. But in December we go out to clients to observe inventory counts, and then you can have a LOT of variety. Every year someone ends up in Alaska taking 2 planes and a bumpy seaplane to go out and count fish. I ended up in the deep middle of nowhere counting hay bales in a blizzard. Those are the REALLY wild trips.

    7. Pretty as a Princess*

      Our field of specialty makes up words that don’t really exist in English and I am greatly disappointed every time I try to play one in the NYT Spelling Bee puzzle.

      1. ferrina*

        Lol! Or the acronym roulette- I’ll see a bunch of random letters and my brain will immediately associate them with an acronym.

    8. Environmental Compliance*

      Somehow I have become the site’s informal Animal Control. Geese are angry critters as is, they get even angstier when you’re trying to catch the one that’s dragging around fishing line.

      1. Warrior Princess Xena*

        I just snarfled my tea at this mental image. Please tell me you have more stories.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          At this particular worksite, I have caught four (4) geese, one (1) warbler, one (1) very clingy pigeon, and two (2) raccoons.

          One raccoon had managed to sneak in through an empty dock door and hid under a piece of scrap equipment about to be sent out. I got a panicky phone call from Security and meandered over to find two big burly security guards nervously looking at the equipment, which was now surrounded by chunks of pizza. They thought throwing pizza at the raccoon would spook it out for some reason. So then I got to crawl through chunks of pizza to grab the very pregnant raccoon, which was so fat there was no way she could turn around and bite me, and then calmly walk it outside. I let it go and she *waddled* off into the woods.

          This is why my work nickname is Redneck Disney Princess.

            2. goddessoftransitory*

              Yes! With pictures of preggers trash pandas! (And good thing you did get her out of there, OP, since she may have been looking for a nice spot to give birth!)

          2. goddessoftransitory*

            We have pigeons outside our call center (big windows look out onto a flat roof) that have become bolder and bolder these past weeks because a co-worker started giving them birdseed. I actually had one hop up to the open window! Luckily she didn’t come inside but they are really without fear.

            “Mother. We require the seeds, mother. Mother. THE SEEDS.”

      2. Hannah Lee*

        Angry Geese always makes me think of the BBC Radio show Cabin Pressure.

        There was a hysterical episode that involved some unruly geese.
        There are also ones with very funny bits about “lots and lots of bees” and “I don’t care how hypothetical it is, I am NOT flying with an otter on the flying deck”

        Bonus Benedict Cumberbatch, Roger Allam, Stephanie Cole and the comedic genius of John Finnemore.

      3. Csethiro Ceredin*

        Gosh, I thought I had something to complain about as the only willing bug and spider catcher.

        But stop the calls, we have a winner.

    9. Emotional support capybara (he/him)*

      Accidental Midas touch. No, seriously.

      We occasionally use Rub-n-Buff (oily stuff you rub on wood, etc. to give it a gold leaf effect). Anyone who has ever referred to glitter as “craft herpes” has never used Rub-n-Buff. If you get any amount on your hands and miss it while washing up, you’ll know soon enough.

    10. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      All those body parts you’re not supposed to talk about at work? Not only do I frequently have to talk about them, but my doctors like to put pictures of them (but only if they’re injured or diseased) on my screen without warning :P

    11. Lady_Lessa*

      In my first job, dental materials research, I’ve had to help catch a squirrel that got inside. We used a very large beaker and a board. And also starling that came in the open window as well. (The bird was easy, just throw a towel over it.)

      The clinician who had the open window stopped doing that. (He was also the culprit at feeding the squirrels)

      1. MissCoco*

        When I was at college, a new chemistry building was opened during my 2nd year and a squirrel got into the organic chemistry lab on unveiling day. My advisor was the one who captured and released it. I remember there was a lot of stress the first week or so because it wasn’t clear how the squirrel had gotten in and if there was some kind of secret route squirrels could be using to get into the building, but since it never happened again, I assume someone just left a window open.

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        If there’s one thing you learn fast in an urban environment, it’s that the local wildlife already does not fear you, and if they see you as a food source, they will actively start a mob to demand constant refurbishment of snackage.

    12. WantonSeedStitch*

      This reminds me of the occupational hazard of parenting: getting songs like “Baby Beluga” and the theme to Daniel Tiger’s Neighborhood stuck in your head…and finding yourself whistling or singing them under your breath in public.

      1. TeaCoziesRUs*

        Man… Tiger. I’ll STILL sing the pick up, clean up or potty or thank you song FAR too often. >.<

    14. Hotdog not dog*

      I work for a bank and occasionally have to review employees bank/credit card statements. It can be surprising to see what some people spend money on. Pro tip, if you really want to keep your unconventional proclivities secret, use cash or at least put it on an account that’s not held by the company you work for.
      I absolutely maintain complete privacy, but I am sure there are some things my coworkers would prefer I didn’t see.

    15. Data Slicentist*

      I frequently misspell and misread “bowl” as “bowel” because the latter comes up way more often in the data I work with.

    16. OMG, Bees!*

      I have a funny story involving bees at a client office.

      First off, I am highly allergic to bees, to the point that when stung as a kid, I had to go to the ER due to swelling. I treat bees with a healthy fear.

      Client office has a bee hive on their roof, opens the windows when it is hot, and of course the windows do not have a screen. Client also likes a summary email of what I did during the day in addition to tickets.

      So, end of day, I have my stuff packed up and am for some reason logged into one of their desktops typing up my email. I am about 70% done with the email when, as foretold, a bee landed on the desk between me and the keyboard. I knew I had to get out ASAP but also send that email, so I do the only logical thing I could think at the time. Mid sentence, mid thought I type OMG BEES! I GOT TO GO! send, log off, and quickly but carefully leave.

      This email went to my boss, the contact at client, and at least 4 other managers. I am a little disappointed no one mentioned the email later.

    17. Anonymous park ranger*

      As a ranger, I took reports from visitors who had wildlife encounters. Once a very upset visitor reporting a Bigfoot sighting next to a trail that he wanted to report. I dutifully wrote down details of an unknown animal sighting along with his report of a weird sound (which turned out to be a common bird when I walked to the area afterward). I shared it with our resource manager who was an expert tracker so he could go up to the trail the next day to look around.

      The visitor then went public and it was our busy summer season. For the next couple weeks, reporters from national news outlets all wanted to interview me while I was slammed with doing ranger talks. NI didn’t want to be forever recorded in print or on video in my ranger uniform talking about Bigfoot. My wonderful colleagues covered for me and directed people to the superintendent. When the visitor himself came up looking for me with his entourage of reporters, my co-workers gave me a heads-up so I could hide in a building that wasn’t open to the public until they were gone.

      Only once did a major news outlet with a camera find me. I made sure to be so boring in my responses to their questions that they never aired the footage.

    18. Notmyjobreally*

      We had a small snake in the building. Boss thought it was a great idea to capture and release it in the field next door. I on the other hand, thought small snake has family and friends and KNOWS how to get in the building.

    19. Not A Ranger*

      Possibly unknown escaped critters – one day there was a bucket with some sticks and leaves inside it sitting on a conference room table and somehow nobody knew who brought it in or if the sticks and leaves were meant to be a flora specimen or habitat for an escaped fauna specimen.

      Asbestos. Not the building kind, but our intern went and pulled a chunk of it out of a vein in some rock and started demonstrating to us how you could tell it was asbestos because of the fibers when you broke it apart… he had a toddler’s ability to get into the worst possible thing faster than we could identify what he had in his hands NOW.

    20. Pajamas on Bananas*

      22” x 34” books. Unwieldy to say the least, and it’s very easy to injure yourself with them.

  5. purring in my lap cause it loves me*

    I just found out that there was a huge scandal at my old job, and a handful of VPs got fired for cause–including the VP who stonewalled my promotion and thus caused me to quit. I am dying to know what went down, but my source did not have the closed-door details, only the aftermath. I’m not planning to re-apply, I just want the details so I can sip them like a warm Cabernet.

    2. Cookies for Breakfast*

      Earlier this year, I found out something similar about a senior manager who I sensed was trying to push me out of an old role (I resigned first). I don’t think they lasted a full year at the organisation. They had come from a very short stint at a huge company I’ve always heard described as a great employer, and in hindsight, it makes so much sense.

      I didn’t press for gossip, but my source shared enough to make me wonder how many relationships got shattered along the way. Among other things, the manager was a close friend of a colleague with a stellar reputation, who referred them for the job – and if what I heard is true, there’s both professional-bridge-burning and friendship-ending stuff in it.

      Today, I saw the manager’s new job announcement on LinkedIn. Yet another senior title at yet another household name. I just indulged in a strictly enforced couple of minutes of checking who from OldJob left glowing comments vs. who didn’t, and wondering how long the role is going to last.

      1. introverted af*

        Yessssss. Like, the fact that I worked REALLY hard to be good at my last job, and improve what I did for the team, and increase what the role is worth…and since I’ve left they’ve had prettttttty high turnover. Dang, almost like the role really is worth more than what they want to pay for it and nobody sticks around once they hear about it

    4. Generic Name*

      Ha ha, I’d be dying to know too. I had a coworker who complained about me, and it negatively impacted me at my company, even though I didn’t know what I did wrong. Turns out I did nothing wrong and the ceo ended up apologizing to me later and the coworker eventually got put on a PIP and left the company. Now he runs his own company, and that company is blacklisted with my current company.

    5. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      I am still waiting for the comeuppance for the new manager who pushed me out. She’s horrible and not liked at my former company, but for some reason I’m the one who was cut because of her. I have a feeling she won’t last a year.

      1. Seal*

        Same here. There’s been a mass exodus since I was forced out because my former manager is so terrible at their job no one wants to stay. So far all of this has happened under the radar but once it becomes obvious that nothing’s getting done – which will happen soon – the ensuing scandal will be breathtaking.

    7. reject187*

      Same! I just got out of an awful job and one of my friends knows all the tea, so every few weeks I get a text saying “this entire department quit” or “so and so resigned effective immediately” and I can’t tell you how much joy it gives me that the place is falling apart for all the stress it put me through.

    9. NotBatman*

      My friend calls those “lobster knife fights” from an old meme. A lobster knife fight is any time you know SOMETHING went down, but the something is so far above your paygrade and/or confidential that you know you’ll never get all the details.

      1. They Don’t Make Sunday*

        For a minute I was picturing lobsters with knives and thought it was meant to be some kind of contradiction or comment about impotence (lobsters can’t pince knives or be very threatened by another lobster with a knife because they have exoskeletons). And then I realized it’s meant to invoke fancy dinners where people duel with lobster knives. But I also like the first idea. :)

    10. Kat*

      While I don’t know you or your company, I absolutely need to know what happened! Please give us any updates! lol

      I was pushed out by a horrid boss who lied and was vastly underqualified. The company was taken over by C-level people who have no idea what they are doing. The company didn’t do well last year, and I’m betting this year will be awful too. I’m hoping I’ll hear they were bought out or something next year. I’ve also looked at job openings, they didn’t realize me, or others who were also laid off or quit. This tells me they still don’t know what they are doing and don’t know what they need. I’m also keeping my eye out for Glassdoor review

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        Mmmmm, like that bookstore that fired me and then whoopsie! the whole chain collapsed, darn it all! Not saying I reveled quite a bit in that news–but also not NOT saying that.

    11. Texan In Exile*

      Two of my best work-related days have been learning that the CEO everyone hated and the VP who eliminated my position were fired. I’m still coasting on that, along with the happiness that comes with knowing that my friends who still worked there were equally delighted and all of whom had messaged me immediately to let me know.

  6. Night Tiger*

    I work in a client-based industry. Recently, I worked with a nightmare of a client who (even though we met all the goals for the client and did really good work for them) treated us terribly. They wouldn’t answer emails, they didn’t seem to understand the job they were doing, and as soon as the bill would come they would argue with us about it. Even now, this client has not paid us what they owe us.

    The people who were our original contacts at this place were terminated and apparently on their way out, apparently tried to blame us for everything they were being fired for. Now, one of those people keeps trying to reach out to me. It seems that they started their own consulting firm. I’m not sure if they want to talk to me to try to get me in on it or what, but I really am not interested in talking to them. First, they did not seem to have a good understanding of the industry we’re in or what is required when I worked with them. Second, looking at the website, they seem to be way over-extending themselves for what seems to be a one-person operation. Third, I do not want to work for a startup (and deal with all the associated work/pressure/risks). I’m not sure why else they would be contacting me, but I’m just… really not interested in talking to them.

    Is there anything wrong with me ignoring these requests to connect?

    This person also keeps trying to connect with me on LinkedIn, but the request keeps coming to an email that is NOT associated with my LinkedIn account. That’s weird right? Do they just not know how to use LinkedIn properly?

    1. Tio*

      Real linked in requests should be sent through linked in, are they not sending them through linked in or are the linked in requests somehow going off to the wrong email? Either way, you can ignore them though.

    2. Indolent Libertine*

      I think LinkedIn harvests every email address in the requester’s contacts and sends out a bulk emailing, whether or not those emails are connected to a LinkedIn account. If they were coming to your individual profile and making a specific connection request, that would go to the address associated with your account.

    3. Hannah Lee*

      I think you’re perfectly fine just ignoring it.

      If you want, you could reply to one of their outreach attempts through whatever means works best for you, blandly declining or even just an “oh, so busy! hope all is going well with you.” if you’re not sure what they are reaching out for.

      But what would be the downside if you just … didn’t? They’d badmouth you? They’ve proven they are happy to do that – unfairly – when you’re responsive and doing your best, what you agreed to

      You’re under no obligation to engage with ex-clients were difficult, unreasonable and willing to toss you under the bus. You could just ignore their requests, and then set whatever means they used to contact you to filter their communications into a folder or whatever so you could review it if you want to, but it doesn’t pop up in your normal feed “Oh, THEM again Ugh!” And then play dumb if you ever see them in person… “Hmm, I don’t remember seeing anything, but then I’ve been swamped / been having some issues with messaging/email apps, you know how it goes. Take care!”

    4. RagingADHD*

      If it is them reaching out directly (rather than Linkedin doing an automated thing), they probably want to build connections and recommendations for their profile. Or they want to “pick your brain” so you can teach them how to do their job.

      Ignore away! Nothing wrong with it at all.

    5. fhqwhgads*

      I suspect it’s actually that LinkedIn is automatically spamming that person’s contacts on their behalf, specifically because it’s not going to the email associated with your account. I’d thought LI cleaned this up in recent years, but maybe not. But I do not have a LI account. I will never have a LI account. Any time I get a LI request to connect from someone who does have an account, it’s because some automated thing did it, not the person actually intending to request anything from me. I’d ignore it for that reason.

    6. somehow*

      If you don’t want to connect, don’t. I’m not sure what would be wrong with that within the context of your post. Could you maybe go into a bit more detail about what’s making you hesitate?

  7. Invisible fish*

    Recommendations for plus size work pants specifically from companies that pay fair wages and have sustainable practices?

    1. Former Retail Manager*

      I’ll leave the ethics to you, but Eloquii makes some high quality plus size work pants. Thick fabric, washes well, doesn’t fade over time, and they have different variations depending on how your weight is proportioned. Wide variety of colors and styles as well.

    2. ursula*

      Following with great interest. I’m trying to transition to a more ethical wardrobe (which is one part focused on buying higher quality and less trendy things that will last and result in me ultimately buying less, and one part focused on environmental/labour concerns) and my God is it ever hard as a plus sized person.

      Lakyn Carlton (on insta under their name) works as a sustainable stylist and has a master Excel doc of brands that do ethical plus sized stuff. ‘Sustainable’ is a bit loosely defined IMO, but it’s a starting place at least, and much better than nothing.

    3. debbietrash*

      Look local. I’m not sure where you’re located, but start with your town/city/neighbouring area. In my experience it’s the small, local businesses that support both sustainability by being local, and paying their staff a fair/equitable wage. They’re also getting better at offering plus sized clothes, though a lot of places max out around a size 18 or 20.

    4. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      Able clothing came on my radar recently — I can’t personally recommend but some people I know do.

      1. Unkempt Flatware*

        I love Able. I love Quince as well but I think their sizing is limited. Aday is another. Amour Vert. Basically, go to Good On You to see how brands rank in sustainability and responsibility.

    5. JMR*

      No idea about ethics, but as someone who is borderline plus-size and has (apparently) fairly unusual proportions, I’ve been getting my stuff custom-made from Eshakti. Everything has been great quality and reasonably priced. I do find that I still sometime require minor alterations to tweak the fit to make it perfect, but it’s waaaaaaay better than starting from standard-sized stuff.

      1. Not Your Trauma Bucket*

        Seconding this! And my understanding is that they’re very ethical all the way around.

      1. Ainsley Hayes*

        I cannot recommend Universal Standard enough! They are size-inclusive (every style! every color! every size costs the same!), their clothes are machine washable, and I have found them to be very good quality. They offer virtual stylists (free, I think) to help you find what you need. 10/10 stars, would recommend (as I am wearing a dress and jacket from them as I type this…). Expensive-ish, but worth it!

        1. clown.pdf*

          thirding US! I’ve only bought their jeans and t-shirts but they’re some of the best quality clothes I’ve owned.

    9. Picard*

      I’m a huge fan of Alison at Wardobe Oxygen (link in comments)

      She regularly has posts about ethical companies and she wont promote/work with/ whatever companies that dont offer extended sizing.

  8. TeenieBopper*

    So, I started a new job about three months ago. For context, I’ve always struggled a bit with imposter syndrome, but I also kind of like just being Some Guy ™ who’s merely competent and isn’t a rock star, but also doesn’t really screw anything up; it makes it easier to have firm boundaries between work and life. Anyways, I’ve been in a couple virtual meetings/email conversations with the CEO of the company (who I’ve literally never met before) and he’s made multiple references to me as a data scientist. That is not my job title – which is a significantly less impressive senior data analyst – and I’m not a fan of the expectations that title implies. But also, objectively speaking, I do have a lot of the same skills and experience. I don’t know that I have a question. I don’t want to correct him because he’s the CEO and I really am just some guy, plus it makes me look important. But I also don’t want higher expectations: underpromise and over deliver and all that.

    1. ferrina*

      “Oh, that’s kind of you, but my role isn’t as prestigious as a data scientist- I’m just a lowly analyst!”

      A little self-deprecating humor could help. You could let it go under the radar (particularly if you normally won’t interact with the CEO much after that), and if you were looking for a career boost, having the CEO lump your skills into a higher category than your role is a good thing. But if you want to slow or stop that, a gentle correction is just fine (unless your CEO is out of control and can’t handle a non-confrontational fact-check)

      1. Armchair Analyst*

        this is a bit much to me, could definitely come out wrong if a person says it wrong or has the wrong tone or voice (or is female).

        try, “oh I just wanted to say- you do keep referring to me as a “data scientist,” but please know my current title is “senior data analyst” – a lot of overlap in the job description, but since we data folks love to get technical, I just wanted to make sure we’re clear on that.” or something like that.

    2. star*

      As someone who went from data analyst to analytical developer to data scientist in the same org and without really changing the nature of their work, is it worth exploring? Are there data scientists in your organisation with whom it might be worth comparing notes and building connections?

      I’m not sure what additional expectations there are for data scientists vs data analysts in your org, but it might be worth thinking about? No worries if not, and I think ferrina’s response is pretty good if you just want to correct and leave it at that.

      1. TeenieBopper*

        Nah, I’m the first person hired in my department. My experience lies a lot with SQL query writing, report creation/automation, building dashboards, and a lot of interacting with people not as data literate and figuring out what questions they (actually) want answered and figuring out how to answer those questions. I feel like I’m competent in a lot of different areas, but I don’t excel in any of them. Like, I can write some pretty gnarly queries in SQL Server (but not Oracle or PostGRES or whatever), but any sort of DBA tasks or things with database structure and I’m clueless. And so, when I think of data scientists, I think people who have PhDs in math or stats (I’m so far removed from my math and stats courses and those skills have atrophied a lot over the years) or computer science. And I’m just some dude who does his job and when there’s a problem that needs solving, just hacks together a solution as best he can.

    3. NeedRain47*

      Pretty much anyone who works with data in any way could be broadly called a “data scientist”. Could he be using it that way instead of as Data Scientist as a title? It’s more likely that he just doesn’t know exactly what you do, than that he has any specific expectations tied to it.

    4. EMP*

      The CEO probably has no idea that there’s a difference or what your actual title is. Unless the talks are showing that they are expecting things of you outside your job title, then yeah, bring it up. But my instinct is the CEO mentally categorizes everyone in your department as a “data scientist” and is using that more generically.

      1. NotBatman*

        That would be my guess as well. CEOs get hired for strategic expertise, not data analysis — it’s very likely he thinks “data scientist” is a valid umbrella term.

    5. AnonAcademicLibrarian*

      Is it possible this is just short hand for your actual job title? Like technically a job title might be User Services Weasel Roper, but for ease, people just say, “Weasel Wrangler” and move on? Because that happens a lot in my field and I think you might be reading too much into this. However, if you do want to defuse it, I think ferrina’s self-deprecating humor suggestion is a good one.

    6. Data Slicentist*

      How big is the company? Is it large enough that other folks in these conversations don’t expect the CEO to have everybody’s titles right?

      Also, as a data scientist, the skills and expectations tied to that title do vary a lot by organization. I’m no DBA and while I do have math-related degrees, no phd. I write SQL, clean data, and build pipelines, and train models. I also help people with their excel spreadsheets if that’s what needs doing.

  9. UnReward*

    Latest corporate BS. Weekly HR newsletter contains a headline about new Company Name rewards program. I click through. What they have done is created a statement with pie chart that breaks out salaries/benefits/bonuses/Retirement and then totaled it up and called that your rewards for the year. The absolute minimum a company must do is pay people: it’s not a reward!

    2. Girasol*

      Isn’t it fairly common these days to call the combination of salary and benefits a “Total Rewards Package?”

      1. Somehow_I_Manage*

        Yes- although I think that may be a specific payroll/benefit provider branding. The generic term is “Total compensation.”

        The spirit it’s intended is to help you more accurately compare your compensation across employers. It’s valuable information as companies contribute differing amounts to retirement, health insurance, etc.

        I like it, and have considered in carefully when switching jobs.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      Oof. I’ve seen these statements before, but they were called “total compensation” or something along those lines. I find them moderately interesting. Calling your standard salaries/benefits/etc. “rewards” absolutely rankles.

    4. ThatGirl*

      Oh yes the “total rewards” statement. Which to me has always felt like a guilt trip of “see, we can’t pay you more because we’re spending all this money on you already”.

    5. Colette*

      True, but benefits, bonuses, and retirement plans vary. It’s prett common to see all of those rolled up and referred to as a rewards plan. (To give you some examples, in my first job I had a defined benefit pension, in a later job they had RRSP matching and a fitness subsidy and volunteer incentive plan, in another job there was nothing but salary and health benefits – the value of those were different both financially and to me.)

    6. Hannah Lee*

      Calling it “rewards” is kind of obnoxious.

      But the idea of providing employees with a “Total compensation summary” that includes things beyond standard pay rates … ie bonuses, paid time off, cost of company paid insurance premiums, employer retirement contributions, employer FSA/HSA/HRA contributions, EAP or gym or transit passes or other employer paid perks/benefits isn’t a bad one on its own.
      If all employers did that it would help people get a better sense of whether their total compensation package is fair and how it compares to others if they are job hunting.

      We did it occasionally from time to time at a previous company, following year end; it was partially to give people a snapshot of their total package outside of just what they’d see on their W2.

      But it also served as a reminder to people that there were benefits available they may not have used yet, but were useful to be aware of – like employer paid LTD, that did have an annual cost even if they didn’t use it, or things like tuition, tool purchase reimbursement, or fitness and equipment discounts, language programs, international insurance coverage (including traveler assistance and medical evacuation) that only had a cost when someone used them or were bundled in with something else the employer had in place already.

      All that stuff was mentioned during their hiring process, and may have been mentioned somewhere else along the way, but the thought was it was good to give people a refreshed list all in one place every year.

      1. Pajamas on Bananas*

        I honestly don’t even like the “compensation package” language. If the employee has to pay for it, it’s not compensation; it’s a benefit. At my last job most people only funded their benefits every other year, because our compensation wasn’t high enough to afford to fund them every year. I couldn’t afford the full benefit package until my 5th year working full time.

    7. Roland*

      Eh, if they presented it as some brand new cool rewards program I’d be annoyed too, but otherwise it feels like totally standard HR language that’s always been a click away in workday or similar systems in jobs I’ve had.

      1. UnReward*

        That’s how they presented it. I like the compensation breakdown but don’t make it sound like a special treat or opportunity.

    8. HR Exec Popping In*

      I can see why you thought it was something different, however I doubt it was intently misleading. The term “Total Rewards” is standard terminology used in corporate America as well as in the HR profession. It is what we use to encompass the total investment in employees – direct base salary, incentive programs, equity programs, long-term comp, as well as the value of all direct and fringe benefits and perks.

    9. There You Are*

      I got fooled by that, too, when I first started at the company I’m at now. “You’re 2019 Total Rewards statement is available now. Click here to access your Total Rewards!”

      ::click::

      Oh. OK. It’s just my compensation package.

      Which might be meaningful if I were looking to switch to hourly consulting and had to pay for my own health insurance and match my own retirement benefits.

    10. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I’d consider that a swizz.
      FinalJob (Germany) has a good Rewards Program of vouchers for 10-40% off a wide variety of big name shops/brands.
      They send out a monthly newletter with new vouchers to emplyees and retirees. I like that I still get these rewards now I’m retired.

      1. LJ*

        That might be a cross cultural terminology thing though – in the U.S. the kind of discount program you’re describing is often called “perks”, or maybe formally “employee discount program” – distinctly not “benefits” or “rewards”

  10. I do beach*

    My mom passed away about a month ago. She was sick for a very long time, and I had been caring for her for the past few years, and took FMLA to care for her full time for the last few months of her life. I also took 3 weeks off after she passed and went to Hawaii to relax for part of that. However since I have been back at work, I have been the most unmotivated I have ever been. It’s hard to even get up the motivation to do basic stuff like find a file in a folder. I don’t know what is going on with me. I miss my mom a lot – we were really close – but I knew it was coming, we prepared as best we could, and I’ve been in counseling. I’m not really sure what else to do. I spend my days reading the news and planning a vacation I am taking later this year, or else walking around the office and talking to people. I’m a manager so most of my job is making sure my direct reports have what they need to do their jobs well, and they seem to be doing ok, but I hate being this checked out. Does anyone who has also lost a parent have any advice?

    1. ruthling*

      Sounds like pretty typical grief. It sucks and I’m sorry you are dealing with it. It should get better with time, but don’t feel afraid to seek professional help if you think you might need it. Especially if you are having trouble with basic stuff like eating, sleeping, taking care of yourself.

    2. Night Tiger*

      I’m sorry about your mom. I lost my dad when I was 12, and the pain of that never really goes away, but it becomes more like a dull throb that comes up every once in a while, rather than a sharp, raw pain that you experience every day. We weren’t super close but it was still a terrible time. I didn’t go to therapy at the time, but looking back (and having gone to therapy since) I think it’s useful to try to process the trauma and grief of losing a parent. After a long illness, especially, you may have some really conflicting emotions coming up that it might be helpful to process with someone who has seen it all before.

      Creating something may also be a good outlet for some of your grief — could be art, journaling, baking, cooking, gardening, house projects — none of it has to be good, it just has to keep you busy. The goal being not to ignore the grief but to help process it.

      You’ll get through this. Sending you lots of love.

    3. Annie Edison*

      I lost my mom to Alzheimer’s about a year and a half ago. I really wish I had some useful advice but honestly, I was just kind of … off for about a year after she passed. I’m self employed and my clients were very understanding about me needing to take some time, and then I very much coasted on doing the bare minimum I needed to do for a while after that. I’m just now getting back to my normal baseline of energy and motivation now
      For me- even though she’d been sick for so long, and I’d done much of my grieving in advance as she slowly faded away, I was still just so exhausted from caring for her, and being intimately close to someone as they pass was a lot to process
      Be as soft and gentle with yourself as you can, and give yourself permission to do less than you normally would. Sleep more, move slowly, spend time outside- whatever feels gentle for you. And if you can, maybe look for a grief support group as well. I found it really comforting to talk with a friend who’d also lost his mom and helped me realize it’s ok to not feel ok for a while
      Sending you lots of love from an Internet stranger

      1. Panicked*

        *For me- even though she’d been sick for so long, and I’d done much of my grieving in advance as she slowly faded away, I was still just so exhausted from caring for her, and being intimately close to someone as they pass was a lot to process*

        This. SO much this. Caregiving is exhausting; mentally, physically, emotionally, etc.. It’s going to take more than just a few weeks to recuperate from that. Caregiving also gives a sense of purpose, as tiring as it is. Knowing that you’re the one helping and assisting in someone’s time of need can be fulfilling. I helped cared for my grandmother with dementia for a year before she could no longer live at home. Once that care was shifted to the professionals, I felt like I wasn’t doing anything anymore. You feel almost directionless and yes, unmotivated. I’m not comparing your situation to mine at all, but I know how you are feeling.

        That being sad, please allow yourself some time and grace here. It’s a lot to process and work through. Therapy, especially with one who deals with grief and loss, may be really helpful to you.

    4. Colette*

      When my dad died, I spent all of my free time playing video games and basically limped through work. What you’re doing is normal.

      If it continues for more than a couple of months, it could become a problem, but right now you’re OK. You had time off after she died, but you’re just now back in a more regular routine.

    5. Juicebox Hero*

      My mother died in August 2018, right in the middle of my busy season at work. This is my story. Her last year was a long and ugly thing at the end of decades of control, codependency, and emotional abuse. I got stuck being her caretaker and advocate even after she had to go into a nursing home, and basically didn’t have a second for myself. Once I was rid of her I had no desire to anything but savor the peace and quiet. On top of that, I got hit with a sinus infection, laryngitis, and pinkeye at once because my resistance was at an all-time low.

      Caretaker burnout is a real and insidious thing. Once a stressor is removed, it becomes hard to recalibrate yourself to normal routines. You’ve expended so much effort that I think it kind of depletes your reserves for a while.

      People grieve in different ways, too. You’re not crying and wailing, but you’ve had a major loss and your mind hasn’t fully wrapped itself around it yet.

      The best I can say is talk to your counselor/therapist about your lack of motivation and see what they suggest. Cognitive behavioral therapy helped me immensely in that it allowed me to acknowledge and address my emotional crapulence, while giving me the mental tools to set them aside when I really needed to focus on stuff.

      I’m very sorry for your loss, and good luck.

    6. Jo*

      I lost both my parents earlier this year (72 days apart! Zero stars, do not recommend!) and I experienced a profound lack of motivation. I just didn’t see the point of compiling reports and attending meetings and making goals. Everything just seemed so pointless–life is short, we’re all gonna die someday, and you want me to redo this spreadsheet? Something a friend said to me helped get me over the hump–“yes, this is all dumb in the grand scheme of things, but you gotta do your job to make money. Your parents wouldn’t want you to be homeless.”

      I’m still struggling with motivation at this point, but it’s more “am I doing what I should be doing with my life” instead of “this is all dumb, what’s the point of anything,” which I’m taking as an improvement.

      It gets better.

    7. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      That’s grief, and you have to just live through it. I lost my mom last year and slogged through for months, doing the minimum needed to keep the wheels turning and overall having a very hard time GAF. It’s hard to care about a job when you’re processing this kind of loss and facing existential stuff.

      You may also not be realizing the toll that all that caretaking took on you. Burnout caught up now that the crisis is over. Go easy on yourself.

    8. Irish Teacher*

      I had a fairly similar response after my dad died. I didn’t feel like I was grieving in most ways, but everything just seemed to take longer and I felt like I was less competent at work. In my case, it lasted maybe a month or two (probably helped that he died just over a month before Christmas, so I then had two weeks off to relax and regroup).

      I’m sure your direct reports understand

    9. Potatoes gonna potate*

      My dad died suddenly a little over 5 years ago. It was right before the start of our busy season. It helped having a lot of work to do and at the time I had a friend at work. But man oh man that first year is the hardest.

    10. Ainsley Hayes*

      When my dad died last year, I did the most I could – some days it was everything on my to-do list, and some days it wasn’t. But my list was a physical list, which helped. I relied on my team. I closed my office door and cried if I had to. I went home early and/or worked weird hours. No one is judging – you get a free pass for a while.

      I’m sorry about your mom. Sending you and your people good thoughts.

    11. Rainy*

      I haven’t lost a parent but my first husband died about fifteen years ago after a long decline. What you’re feeling is a very normal manifestation of grief and caretaker fatigue. It will take a while, I’m afraid. Getting through the first year is the hardest grief-wise, in my experience, and the lack of motivation really is a symptom of grief. The long period of expecting it doesn’t make it any easier. I don’t know if this will resonate for you, but I knew that my husband’s condition was never going to improve and I expected his death and thought I was prepared, but I wasn’t, and there was also for me the feeling before he died that it wouldn’t be as bad because I was expecting it. There’s often a sense that the anticipation of it was “paying into” the eventual grief and recovery process, like knowing it’s going to happen and being sad about it ahead of time is going to shorten things when it actually does, and that just isn’t how it works.

      It’s good that you are in counseling, it’s good that you are being kind to yourself, don’t stop any of that, but also know that it’s going to take as long as it takes and you can’t hurry it up just by wishing you were done already (even though you will probably reach the point where you frequently wish you could just *stop being sad*). And a lot of the people around you are going to start feeling that you should hurry up and get over it already, and that really doesn’t help. (It hit around the tw0-month mark for me–some people around me got irritated that I was “still sad”, and I would say that I wasn’t really myself again for over a year.)

      Keep doing the stuff you are doing that helps. Know that grief is like a physical injury to your brain, and it takes time for the brain to heal. Being active really helped me–his death was the start of my gym rat phase (I went to the gym 6 days a week)–and I also got a new pet of a totally different kind than I’d ever had that required a lot of attention and research, and that helped too.

      I’m so sorry for your loss. I wish you all the best, and I believe in your victory.

    12. Hannah Lee*

      So sorry for your loss I do beach.

      All of what you describe sounds completely normal! I went through something similar after my mom died. My siblings and I had all spent the 1-2 years before juggling assisting her and then full on care-giving as her health shifted, while most of us also had other responsibilities – partners, children, full time jobs, etc.

      When the urgent immediate need to be caring for her or planning care or worrying about whatever was suddenly gone, all the exhaustion, stress, tension and grief hit me hard. I found I was even *less* capable at day to day things than I had been during the time before when I was running on fumes. It was like the really meaningful emergency was over, and my body and mind just noped out of doing much of anything.

      Add to that awareness of how fundamental, profound, meaningful it is to be called to and be able to provide care to a loved one who is struggling, maybe dying … so many things that are usually “important” in day to day life are rightfully pushed aside because, frankly, in the big picture, they don’t matter as much – now or in the long term – as being there with your loved one, doing a little kindness for her even if she’s no longer able to respond to you, treating her with respect and dignity. For me, sometimes the MOST important thing I needed to do was right there, in the moment, for example, spending 45 minutes at 1 am, sitting next to my mother’s bed, brushing her hair and singing softly so she could relax, feel safe and loved, and fall back asleep after waking up with a leg cramp.

      Having to shift from that to the harsh light of day to day work life was awful. I was struck by how trivial and unimportant so many parts of my job were. What did it really matter whether I’d put pieces of paper neatly in files or just stacked them in piles on my desk? What did I care if the co-worker I’d always known was a jerk thought I wasn’t jumping fast enough on his non-urgent requests? It didn’t.

      I had to completely scale back my expectations, prioritize the literal “must dos” at work and in life and let everything else go. Things like processing payroll, paying suppliers, completing filings required by law? Those things got done … but often took 3 x as long as I struggled to keep focus, had to get up and go for a walk to clear my head, be in nature and breathe for a couple of minutes, or go sit in my car and cry when my grief got too bad. And reasonable things my co-workers needed done, I’d find a way to do them too, but not as quickly as I used to.

      But a bunch of stuff didn’t get done. And … it didn’t matter. A lot of internal systems that I used to keep my workflow organized or others updated got set aside. A year and a half later, I am JUST starting to look at them. Some will likely never be touched again.

      Our current capitalist societies place put SO much value and urgency “work” and “productivity” and “professionalism” I’ve always lived in New England in the US, so there was also an unhealthy dose of Puritan idle hands are the devil’s plaything in the culture that surrounded me, in my outlook and other’s expectations. But after being in the midst of something SO important, having the privilege of being there for my mom during such a difficult time for her, and for my siblings as we went through it together, I realize a lot of that doesn’t matter.

      Treating people around me with care and respect including treating myself that way, that’s what matters. And it’s okay and understandable that I often lack the motivation and focus “to do basic stuff” and that I still get wistful or teary sometimes missing my mom … the # of times a week I go to call her, or take a picture of something to share with her later, still!

      Sorry that was long, but the tldr version is:
      What you’re going through is completely normal, it’s completely okay.
      You’re doing all the right things.
      Advice?
      – Keep prioritizing so you hit the things that matter to you – including doing the basics of touching base with your team, getting them what you need. The files and the TPS reports or whatever can wait. At work, focus on the “have to dos” and block off time every week to ID what they are for this week, next week, next month – so you can chip away at them when you can focus. Everything else can wait.
      – Keep making time for down time, keep making time for being in nature, keep daydreaming, planning about the future – those are the self-care things that are helping you heal, regain balance, body mind and soul.
      – This is a long process, and you’re just in the very beginning, maybe still in shock and raw. Give yourself permission to grieve, to be imperfect, to be human.

    13. Anna Badger*

      I haven’t lost a parent but I’ve twice been the direct report to someone while they grieved a direct relative, so sharing in case that side of things is useful to hear:

      my bosses did what they were able to do, and what they weren’t able to do we worked around. if there was slack that needed to be picked up we were genuinely happy to do it – one thing about being on the outside of grief is that there is often so little you can do to help, particularly in a work setting where everyone’s trying to sense where the boundaries are now that someone’s life has been flipped right over. being able to say “yes, I can absolutely pick up this or that task” was a release on our end.

      and yeah, my bosses both absolutely had days where opening a file was an achievement. but the teams I was in got it, and we managed, and over time those days decreased in frequency.

      I wish you long life, and I’m sorry about your mum.

    14. RagingADHD*

      I’m sorry about your mom.

      You are grieving. That’s what’s going on. It’s a normal response to a terrible situation. The fact that you knew it was coming doesn’t change that. Sometimes when there is a long illness, loved ones might have some complex feelings (like relief at not having the pressure of caregiving responsibilities, or relief that she isn’t suffering anymore, or guilt about this or that you might have done differently).

      There’s a lot to process, and it takes up a lot of bandwidth. Be patient with yourself, make sure you are talking everything over with the counselor, and take good care of yourself physically.

      One thing you might consider: what are you doing with the downtime? Maybe nothing right now, and that’s fine. But maybe in a little while you might want to add something back into your schedule. Something you didn’t have time or energy for while you were caregiving. Something that makes you happy.

    15. VGS*

      I feel this so much.

      I lost my mom 4 months ago after a years-long illness. I wasn’t her primary caregiver – that was Dad – but I would say I was her secondary caregiver. In the months since, I’ve received a life changing promotion that is everything I wanted for a career next step, and my reaction has been… meh. I have been doing the bare minimum, and I know I’ve dropped several things (and also that my manager has noticed).

      I have good days, when I’m feeling extremely motivated, and am able to work on big projects. And I have a lot more days when I’m able to keep on top of my emails and must dos and that’s pretty much it. So I take advantage of the good days and accept the bad days.

      If you have vacation time available, I recommend taking a break. I took a few days in June, which I felt a little bad about, because I’d taken so much time at the end of my Mom’s life and after she passed. But end of life care and bereavement is not a break, and I desperately needed a break. So I limited it to a few days, found that wasn’t enough, and now I have another week planned for August. And if that week turns out not to be enough, I’ll plan to take another break in the fall.

    16. Just here for the scripts*

      What you’re going through is totally normal—I remember feeling like an untethered boat in a storm after my dad’s death (which followed my mom’s a year earlier). I could do anything, but wanted to do nothing.

      I think it’s why they say that—if you can—don’t make any big changes for a year following such a loss. You’ll need a year to regroup and re ground yourself—or at least I did.

      I can remember that year that the biggest thing I committed to doing was setting aside afternoons to watch the sappiest hallmark movies just so I had “permission” to cry.

      Be kind to yourself—no matter what age you are when you lose a parent, you will feel like an orphan. And that’s okay.

    17. Heather*

      This is absolutely typical for a grieving person. Even if you feel “fine” and that you aren’t overtly upset. My advice would just be to give yourself grace. Allow yourself to phone it in at work and do the minimum. Eventually you will start feeling more like yourself, but it may take longer than you expect.

    18. Dancing Otter*

      My condolences on your loss.
      Let yourself grieve. We had known for years that my father was on borrowed time, but it was still a shock when he died.
      Some people deal with grief by immersing themselves in anything they can to distract from it; others just go numb. Neither is “normal” compared to the other, and the same person may go back and forth between the two.
      Also, sounds as though you’re doing pretty well on the “walk around, be seen” approach to management.

    19. Jay (no, the other one)*

      My dad died suddenly and I was not right for a very long time. I was able to cut back at work and still felt well below my usual level of competence. A dear friend said “You’re getting a B. You’re used to getting As and that’s what you expect. For right now you’re getting a B, and that’s fine.” My mother died years later after a long decline with dementia and I didn’t expect to have the same struggle – and of course I did. It’s been a month. It’s a terrible loss and a hole in your life – even the caregiving was a kind of connection to your mom and something around which you organized your time.

      Lots of people find grief counseling helpful. Hospices often have services available to everyone in the community and there are also online resources. Be gentle with yourself. Be kind to yourself. For some reason I have been able to ask for help and support in times of grief when I am usually incapable of it – I hope you can, too.

      And I’m sorry for your loss.

    20. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      Seconding everyone who has said this is totally normal. My mom who I was also close to passed suddenly a few years ago and I also found myself really phoning it in at work. Nothing really seems to be all that meaningful in the grand scheme of things when you are processing that loss.

      I was pretty useless for probably 2-3 months. Fortunately I’d been in my job for a decade and my boss knew I was not generally an underperformer (it was a very hands-on job and for some aspects, my flat affect/difficulty with enthusiasm/motivation was obvious).

      I don’t have any advice other than to be kind to yourself. I don’t think there’s anything you can do (counseling is a great idea) other than just go through it. Big hug for you! I still miss my mom but life has colors again now.

    21. I do beach*

      Thank you everyone. In the spirit of my post I cannot find the energy to reply to everyone’s comments, but they all resonate with me and I appreciate knowing that this is normal and I’m not the only one. I’m definitely phoning it in right now, which I don’t like, but I think I will try focusing only on the stuff that HAS TO get done, rather than what’s nice to do as an extra.

      1. Chini*

        I feel you so much. I’m going through something similar now, but for my dog. He died three weeks ago, and I’ve been an emotional wreck and absolutely useless at work since then. I’ve cried more over him than I did when my mother passed. I don’t care even a little bit about my job duties, and yes people are noticing. It sucks because pet loss is a disenfranchised grief — people will give you a day to be sad and then expect you to get over it.

        After my mother’s death, boss and colleagues bent over backwards to be helpful. And I didn’t need it…honestly, mostly I felt relief after her long illness and decline, and work was a welcome diversion. There were no conflicting emotions, no guilt…just closure. Whereas with my dog, I was totally unprepared for how hard it would hit. The crushing sadness and GUILT. From my late 20s to early 40s, he was the one constant in my life of victories and defeats, bad relationships, and life-changing moves. I was solely responsible for keeping him safe and healthy, and at the end….I didn’t.

        I’ve never felt so alone. I look forward to going into the office because my house is too quiet and empty now. But once I log on, I just stare at the screen. Maybe take care of easy busy-work tasks but completely fail to tackle the important stuff. I have no advice, just commiseration, and I’m grateful for all the suggestions people have provided above.

        1. allathian*

          I’m so sorry for your loss.

          I hear you on the pet loss thing. I mourned the loss of my parents’ two cats that I never lived with but occasionally cat-sat when they traveled more deeply than I mourned the deaths of any of my grandparents. I was a child or a young adult when they died and not a caregiver for any of them. I was sad, yes, but not for long, and I certainly didn’t need to take time off school, work, or college to deal with the grief. I suspect that because I wasn’t a caregiver for them it was easier for me to come to terms with their impending deaths, particularly my paternal grandmother whom I mourned before her death as dementia took everything that made her the person she was and left an empty shell.

          But my parents and in-laws are getting older and more frail, and I expect it’s only a matter of time before I experience the loss of a parent myself, and I’m dreading the prospect.

    22. Yikes Stripes*

      I lost my father unexpectedly to double pneumonia in 2019 and my grandmother (who was a second parent to me growing up) passed in 2021 after several years of fading health. I’d been Gran’s full time caregiver for nearly ten years when she died, and the last six weeks of her life were my mother and I doing *all* the hospice work for her. I’ve never been as tired and close to fully breaking as I was at the end of that, and I was fortunate enough to have enough financial support to take a couple of months off – which was extremely lucky because I was a total zombie for six weeks. I still have days where I see something that reminds me of one of them and I have to go hide and cry for a little while.

      I’m going to echo what others have said here, and tell you that caregiving is exhausting on a level that most people don’t understand, and even more so when it’s someone you love. I’m a professional in home care provider now, and when I was hired by the company I work for they were thrilled with the experience I had with family, because, and I’m quoting here “Everything is ten times harder when it’s your family.”

      Since October of 2021 I’ve gone through hospice with three clients and am currently starting that process with a fourth, so I’ll tell you exactly what I’ve told all of their families: everyone grieves the loss of a parent. Even if they don’t think they will, even if all they’re grieving is the could have beens, they’re going to grieve, and that pain is unique and terrible. You loved your mother very much, you spent years helping her live and months helping her die, and there’s going to be a lot of emotional weight on your shoulders from that. It’s nothing to be ashamed of, and I bet that if one of your direct reports had gone through what you’ve gone through you’d extend them a lot of grace and as much leeway as you could. Please try to extend that same grace and kindness to yourself.

      I’m glad you’re working with a counselor, because that will help time and distance do their work.

      I’m so sorry about your loss. May your mother’s memory be a blessing.

    23. *kalypso*

      This is grief and it’s normal. You’re already doing counseling, but are you also doing anything with the will, your mom’s house/possessions etc? Because prolonging all that can make this part of grief (you will feel it for the rest of your life, it just won’t be this present all the time) last longer or feel more acute more often, as you’re constantly reminded/stuck around a bunch of reminders/dragging out the immediate loss. If you’re not and you have it hanging over your head as something to do, then make a start on it. Use it as a scheduled time to feel and process and transition from your mom being the main thing in your life (you took FMLA to care for her, this is a massive life change for you) and then when the feelings pop up elsewhere you can put them in a diary or push them aside until your packing/paperwork/affairs time.

      You might or might not also find help in picking out a small memorial/memento to put in your workspace – externalising the grief that way may clear it out so you can focus instead of holding it in and there being no room for the executive function in your job.

      But also, a big trip in your leave may not have been enough – a lot of travel is your brain on travel, not always leaving enough processing time for feelings and changes. Vacation and travel are good, but can you take some time to just sit around at home? Meet friends, go out for tea, read a good book, just be present with yourself and not you+caring for your mum?

    24. Mrs C*

      I slid into a depressive funk after my mom passed. It snuck up on me. Thought it wouldn’t be that bad because I had lost a child, and that’s “worse.” But this pain was nearly as deep, just…different.

      It sounds like your grief is sneaking up on you, too: you thought you were ready, but it’s still surprising you. Grief counselling or some depression help is probably called for. For your situation, a local hospice might offer a grief group or grief counselling services.

      Also, people find they’ve grown and changed after what you’ve gone through. A death can feel like a good time to re-evaluate other parts of your life. It could be your brain has subconsciously started re-evaluating this job, and whether it’s still what you need.

  11. Abby*

    How horrible would it be to wear business casual to a casual dress work environment?

    I start a new job on Monday, and just found out they have a casual dress work environment. Unfortunately, I own no jeans, I just have sweatpants and baggy cargo pants, which seem too casual.

    My old job switched from business casual to casual dress last year, so I spent a few weekends going to different stores and trying on jeans from different brands. I even ordered a few pairs online. None of them fit me well and none were comfortable. Since my coworkers were rarely in the office, I kept wearing business casual and it didn’t seem like a big deal.

    I’m going to try to get jeans again this weekend, but am not optimistic. If my options are to wear jeans that are uncomfortable or wear my comfortable business casual clothes, is it okay to wear the latter until I figure something else out?

    2. londonedit*

      I don’t think jeans are the only option for casual. I’m assuming from your name that you’re female-presenting, and I often wear quite smart-looking midi/maxi dresses with trainers (sneakers) or other casual shoes to dress them down. You could wear a dress with a sweatshirt over the top, or smarter trousers with a colourful t-shirt and trainers to dress them down. I don’t think it’s terrible at all to wear something more on the business side of casual – the terms are so open to interpretation anyway. I wouldn’t feel like you have to wear jeans. People are usually a bit smarter in their first few weeks of a new job anyway, so I’d just wear something you’re comfortable with, maybe try to casual it up a bit, and get a feel for what everyone else wears.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        This is a good point. Shoes can quickly take an outfit from dressy to casual. Wear your comfiest sneakers (the best part of casual dress IMO) and no matter what else you are wearing you will look more casual.

      2. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Seconding any kind of jersey knit dress. They’re the true “secret pyjamas” of the workplace, and if you feel *too* casual, you can always add some statement jewelry.

      3. Sparkle Llama*

        I am allowed to wear jeans (and often do). When I wear dress pants I will typically pair them with a solid colored decent looking t shirt and maybe a cardigan rather than a nicer business casual shirt. But I also have several coworkers that never wear jeans and nothing feels off about it

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      No one will give it a thought if you aren’t wearing jeans. Tan or black colored pants are still completely normal in a casual work environment. Just don’t show up in a business suit and you’ll be fine.

    4. TeenieBopper*

      I work in a casual/business casual office. I almost exclusively wear shirts and ties (Fridays being exceptions, where I wear a polo). The first couple of days I had people tell me I didn’t need to dress up but 1) my outfits were literally business casual but with a tie and 2) I like wearing ties and having pops of color and pattern. No one’s really said anything since.

    5. ecnaseener*

      Far from horrible. You almost certainly won’t be the only one. If it registers at all, it’ll be as an uninteresting thing about your personal style preferences.

      1. londonedit*

        Yes – occasionally people will comment on how I’m always wearing such nice dresses or I’m always so smart, and I just say ‘Yes, during lockdown I bought so many lovely dresses out of boredom and I never see the point in wearing them when I’m WFH, so I make the effort to wear them when I come to the office!’

    6. ThatGirl*

      My office is casual, but that still runs the gamut of pants, skirts and dresses. Just because you CAN wear jeans, that doesn’t mean you have to. I’ve seen leggings with tunics, khakis, “editor pants”, and plenty of more casual dresses and skirts.

      1. CR*

        My office is casual too and my colleagues wear everything from formal shift dresses with heels to shorts and t-shorts.

    7. I'm A Little Teapot*

      You’re overthinking this. Just wear what you have for now, it’ll be fine. And gradually acquire additional items that make sense. If that means you never wear jeans to work, then you never wear jeans to work. There are people who just don’t like jeans, or can’t find well fitting ones that are comfortable. There’s other clothing options out there.

    8. Alex*

      I always took “casual” to mean “wear whatever you want.”

      You will find that plenty of people feel most comfortable in “business casual” just because it is their style. I work in a casual office and people wear the whole spectrum of things.

    9. The Prettiest Curse*

      I used to wear business casual (sometimes a bit smarter) all the time in a very casual environment where the dress code was basically “please wear clothes” and nobody ever said a thing to me about it. Also, they’re definitely not going to bat an eye at your dressing smarter during your first week, since people often do that at new jobs anyway. Good luck on your new job!

    10. NeedRain47*

      Dress codes are a minimum, not a maximum, you know? You’re allowed to dress nicer than called for. Wear the clothes that you have and you like. Unless your coworkers are real jerks they’re just going to think that’s your style.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        This. You aren’t violating dress code by being more dressed up. If anything, folks at your new job are likely to assume “Abby must be trying to make a good first impression in her new job.”

    11. Dust Bunny*

      I’ve owned the same pair of jeans since 2001 specifically because I wear them so infrequently that they haven’t worn out (although they’re getting close now). I find pants in general really physically uncomfortable and almost always wear skirts or dresses, although some of those are pretty casual.

      I’m not sure I would even notice if you wore business casual. I definitely would not care enough to wonder about it.

    12. LemonToast*

      It’s totally fine to wear your existing clothes! I work in higher ed IT, which can be pretty casual, and we have a spectrum. Some people like shift dresses and button-downs, some people (like me) wear university t-shirts and athletic pants. No one bats an eye either way. Also, I am a manager, and have never been talked to about my clothing choices. Some days I dress up a little bit more and some days I’m in the yoga pants.

      I don’t wear jeans the majority of the time – because they are super uncomfortable, especially when it’s hot. I have one pair that I like, and even then I don’t wear them that often. Please don’t stress about needing jeans to work in a casual dress environment. There’s so many other options!

      I’m a big fan of Athleta pants but I try to buy them second-hand, as they are expensive but there is also a plethora of second-hand options out there, and no need to buy them full price. Also they look great with all my school spirit shirts. :D

    13. I'm Just Here For The Cats!!*

      I think you will be fine with business casual. For some places, their casual is more allined to business casual than actual casual. And typically for the first few days at a new job people dress a bit more businessy than normal, because you are feeling out the norms of your new place. No one is going to come at you on the first day because you are wearing dress pants and not jeans. And as a new person you have the perfect opportunity to make this what you prefer. If anyone says “oh you know jeans are ok” you can say that you know that but this is your preferred style.

      good luck on the first day!

    14. mreasy*

      You can dress slightly more formally than the dress code – just not less so. Biz casual vs regular casual isn’t such a huge leap that you will stick out, or if you do, it will be for looking nice.

    15. Unkempt Flatware*

      Nope, you’re good. Wear what makes you feel good. I also dress a step above everyone else– even my grandboss. No one cares.

    16. Hotdog not dog*

      I do it all the time. So far, if anyone has even noticed, nobody has ever said anything. Similar issue, I just don’t have the kind of body shape that jeans will fit. So I wear what I’m comfortable in.

    17. AnonAcademicLibrarian*

      I think you’re fine. Basically, dress the best you can and then keep an eye on what other people are wearing. I love wearing jeans to the office, but that’s because I love wearing jeans to the office. Some folks wear them. Some folks wear dresses. Some folks wear khaki pants. I would err on the side of formality if you’re unsure at first, but just see what other folks have on and adjust as needed to the dress of your colleagues.

    18. HR Exec Popping In*

      Do not worry about this. Wear whatever makes you comfortable. As a new person just don’t show up multiple steps more dressed up (ie., full business attire). Otherwise, normal business casual is fine for a casual environment.

    19. metadata minion*

      Totally fine! It would look a bit off if you were coming in in a suit and tie/very nice interview dress, but wearing dress slacks and blouses or button-downs will in most offices just mark you as a snappy dresser or someone who enjoys fashion. Unless there’s some practical reason you need to wear casual clothing, like if you’re a field ecologist or something, dressing slightly more formally than you “have” to is completely normal.

    20. Mandie*

      Absolutely you can dress up a notch from everyone else. In my office, jeans are acceptable, but there’s a huge range in how people dress – from jeans with sneakers and T-shirts, to dresses, to khakis and blazers. I mostly wear stretchy dress pants because they’re much more comfortable for me to sit in all day than jeans.

    21. RagingADHD*

      You aren’t required to wear jeans. If something else like chinos or a casual dress is more comfortable, wear that! I am living in knit dresses, and it’s awesome. Somebody told me the other day we’re allowed to wear jeans, and my response was, “Do I have to?”

      Driving and walking from the parking lot when the heat index is 105F, and then sitting all day in jeans, is not my idea of a good time.

    22. Meghan*

      If you are a person who shops at Kohl’s, the Lauren Conrad Ponte Point pants are insanely comfortable to the point where they sometimes replace my leggings on the weekends, but I can wear them at my luxury hotel property as long as I pair them with a blazer. I love them so much, I have 4 pair!

    23. I Have RBF*

      Just stick with business casual if that’s what’s comfortable. There should not be a penalty for not wearing jeans. Jeans and a t-shirt is basic casual, but you can dress up from there, you don’t have to be at the “floor” level of attire, it just gives you and others permission to dress down.

    24. ccsquared*

      Especially on your first day/week, I’d wear what you have that fits you well and you feel great in and not worry so much about what everyone else is doing. People pay less attention to us than we think, and they’re far more likely to notice your discomfort if you’re in clothes you don’t like than if you perfectly blend in. Also, casual environments tend to be less uniform – you might be imagining everyone is going to be in jeans and hoodies, but more likely someone will be wearing that, someone else will be in khakis and a polo, someone will be in a cute blouse and blazer, etc.

      Once you get the lay of the land, if you feel like you want to make wardrobe tweaks that balance your own preferences with the office culture, by all means do so, but you’re more likely to feel that money is well spent if you have a better sense of what you’re aiming for. I made the mistake of buying clothes for a job I assumed would be business casual bordering on full business dress, only to find it was more of a hip smart casual, so not only did I fumble around in heels and stiff pants for the first week or so, I felt guilty spending ahead of my first paycheck on clothes I realized I’d be unlikely to wear again.

    25. Nancy*

      Casual doesn’t mean jeans only, it means wear whatever you want. I never wear jeans to work.

  12. Your Local Password Resetter*

    I’d like some advice on recruitment etiquette, and when you’re still allowed to politely bow out of a job offer.

    I have currently accepted a verbal offer from a recruitment company “R”. I will be working for the hiring company “H” as a contractor employed by the recruitment company.
    This work will start in about 5 weeks. As of now I only have the verbal assurance of the recruiters.

    The issue is that I still plan on applying for other jobs in the meantime, but I’m not sure at which stage I would be proffesionally obligated to decline other offers in favor of the offer from R. Is it once I accepted verbally? Once hiring company H starts processing the hiring paperwork? Once I sign the contract?

    For extra context: contracts are a standard part of employment here, and working based on verbal offers alone is almost unheard of. The contract is usually signed a few days before the start date.
    In addition, I’ve had previous hirings through other recruitment companies where the start date was pushed back by weeks, or the whole contract was cancelled at the last minute. As such, I don’t consider myself properly employed by hiring company H yet.

    What would be the appropriate course of action here?

    1. Knope Knope Knope*

      Never. Do what’s right for you.

      Source: left accepted jobs and have had new hires bail on me. Everyone moves on.

      1. There You Are*

        Agreed.

        When I graduated with my Master’s, I accepted four job offers. The first two paid about the same, so I kept interviewing. The 3rd paid better than the first two, so I had to call the first two and rescind my acceptance. They weren’t pleased but they understood.

        Then the fourth company showed up out of nowhere with an offer that was waaaaaay above Company #3, so I called #3 and rescinded *their* offer.

        All’s good with my contacts at the first three companies. They would have loved to have gotten me for less than I’m being paid now, but they all also acknowledged that they would have done the same thing in my shoes.

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I’d wait until I signed a contract with Company H, because up until then anything and everything can happen and you may still need those other job leads. Something could still happen *after* you sign the contract, but at that point it will have made sense to have turned down those other jobs.

      If it’s standard that contracts aren’t signed until a few days before, then the other companies will probably know that too.

    3. ferrina*

      I think it would be once you have a signed contract, though they might get frustrated if you back out when they have a verbal agreement.

      That said, if they are comfortable changing things on their end that impacts your pay (like a start date), turn-about is fair play. Sometimes polite isn’t as important as self-advocacy.

    4. Warrior Princess Xena*

      Assume you haven’t gotten the job with H until you’ve signed the contract. A lot can happen in 5 weeks, as you’ve found out yourself! I’d keep looking.

    5. Jayne*

      My advice would be to proceed with your job search until the contract is signed, preferably in blood.

      You have experienced the chaos of a withdrawn offer, so you are a free agent until the company commits to you

    6. Samwise*

      You have no contract. You owe them nothing. If they really wanted to ensure you were starting on Day One, they would offer you a contract now with Day One start date.

    7. HR Exec Popping In*

      The company you verbally accepted the offer would obviously want you to let them know ASAP if you accepted another position and won’t take theirs. However, you really can’t expect it to final until it is final. For me, I would wait until after background check and you have physically accepted the offer in writing.

    9. Pita Chips*

      Keep looking, applying, and interviewing until your first day. Making you wait 5 weeks is a bit much.

    10. Dancing Otter*

      This sounds like a temp contract rather than permanent employment. Is it?

      Assuming so, they should expect people to continue looking for permanent employment. Not just before the start date, but even after. That’s just the nature of using contract/temporary help instead of actually hiring someone.

      And even if company R claims they’re hiring you on a permanent basis, it’s only permanent until company H decides to use a different out-sourcing company. We see this a lot with government contracting companies.

    11. I Have RBF*

      When I have worked contract and a permanent job came up, they never really had a thing to say about it, because regular employee with benefits beats contractor “rent a body” type work. This is US, so YMMV elsewhere.

  13. Amber Rose*

    I took a week off and there was a meltdown. Despite my best efforts, I’m a choke point for a lot of occasionally time sensitive things, and a bunch of other efforts. I got an absolute slew of emails during my week off asking me to do things urgently (none of which I answered because I don’t check my emails when I’m away).

    I’ve asked for back up so many times but we’re experiencing our busiest year in the company’s history, basically double sales from last year, and nobody has time or inclination to take on any additional tasks. I’ve been trying to argue for hiring another person but I’m a little worried I don’t have enough for them to do.

    How do you look at everything you do, figure out what can be delegated, and then determine if that actually needs a whole extra person?

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      I would say that this is your manager’s to figure out, not yours. They know what needs the whole team has (not just you) and whether adding someone makes sense. All you need to do is point out that you need back up (with this week as Exhibit A) and let them figure it out. Don’t be in the position of caring more about making sure the work gets done than your boss is.

      1. Tio*

        If you wanted, you could take the slew of emails and whatnot to your manager and be like, “Here are the things that didn’t get covered while I was out. Do you have any suggestions as for where to direct them next time I’m out so they get covered?” If the manager just sort of shrugs it off, then oh well, they won’t get covered and things will fall behind. That might be what they need to change

      2. Hannah Lee*

        “Don’t be in the position of caring more about making sure the work gets done than your boss is.”

        ^ THIS!

        It is SO hard to do, when you’re someone who is competent and conscientious.
        But it is the best thing to do. You can raise the issue to your manager, but if they choose to not act on it, it’s on them.

        Not just in a “hey boss, look! If it isn’t the consequences of your (in)actions!” way, but also because it’s important to manage your boundaries, your role and responsibilities. If they don’t give you authority to address xyz, do not move heaven and earth, suck up your time and energy and time off to try to head the problem off at the pass, or worry about it.

        Staffing issues, coverage issues, failure to manage deliverable/response time expectations … that’s on them.
        They have the power to address it … and have CHOSEN not to.

      3. Amber Rose*

        I am the whole team. I’m literally the only person who does the work I do. My manager is basically just the person who signs off on my expenses, he has no other real input in my work.

        1. Hannah Lee*

          Even that, you being “the whole team” is the manager’s choice. They could choose to have cross-training, back-up and/or procedures in place if you’re not available, as well as a plan they would put in place if for example you won the lottery tonight and gave your notice effective immediately.

          A while back, a poster mentioned the way their manager handled critical staff planning to be out of the office was by announcing in advance “The widget department will be closed from the 1st to the 15th. No orders will be responded to during that time. Requests will be handled in the order received when the department reopens on the 16th”
          It was on the other departments to plan ahead, schedule accordingly. And the staff would come back on the 16th to a backlog they would simply work through. No coming in on vacation required.

          That might be an option.

          But basically it’s still on the manager – if the work is critical, time sensitive, and pops up at a moment’s notice, their choice is to staff so that there is always someone available to do it – ie with cross training or multiple people in the role, outsource during any absences, manage the inbound requests so that no one is expecting and output that week

          But closing their eyes and saying la la la and doing nothing about coverage means stuff won’t get done that week, because that’s what the manager decided by only having one person do that task and zero back up coverage. That’s on them and within their control to solve and deal with.

    2. Rick Tq*

      Sounds like your manager isn’t doing her job and got to pay the consequences while you are out.

      Those are classic tasks for management, not you.

    3. Dust Bunny*

      Thirding that this is your manager’s problem, not yours. There is no reason that your going away for an entirely reasonable amount of time should have resulted in things falling apart.

    4. ferrina*

      Figure out:
      1) What tasks you are responsible and how much time each of these take. Include admin things, like answering emails or filling out timesheets. Anything that takes time.
      2) How that is projected to increase
      3) At which point the work surpasses the hours you are contracted to work (on a regular basis- not a one time) and how this will impact the business (for example, how much will it push timelines?)
      4) Options to fix this. Try to come up with 2-3 feasible options. This could be cross-training so others take on part of the work, bringing in a temp, dropping certain programs, hiring someone.
      One of my favorite tricks is calculating the FTE (full-time employee, aka 35-38 hours per week depending on how much admin overhead you have), breaking down the FTE load of each of the core responsibilities (Program B= .3 FTE or 11 hours/wk) then showing how many FTE the current tasks are taking. If it’s more than 1.2 FTE, there’s clearly an issue. I once got up to the point where I was expected to do 2.3 FTE of work.

      Once you’ve got everything written out, take it to your manager. Yes, it should be your manager’s job to do this, but IME most managers have no idea how to handle situations like this. Most managers have been delighted to have everything documented, and it makes it easier for them to understand their options and make their case the Powers That Be.
      Just make sure that when you talk to your manager, it’s about information sharing. You want to be clear that how they handle it is their decision (and there’s likely options that you won’t know about), you just want to make sure that they have all the information that they need to make their decision and advocate for resources.
      From there, it’s on them. If they can’t get additional resources, it’s not on you to never take a vacation or work countless hours. At that point they are making a decision on how to handle it (deciding not to handle it is still a decision).

      Good luck!

      1. Ashley*

        Something else to consider when presenting does it make sense to have an entire second person, what is on the one day I hope to get to X list? Are there ways the role can expand but you have just never quite gotten there.
        Maybe management is open to finding someone that wants more part time work but would be willing to step up their hours if you were out as a compromise.

      2. Csethiro Ceredin*

        I agree with everyone that this SHOULD be the manager doing this, and I see the argument to just stop doing extra work. But I’ve been in this position and sometimes it’s worth doing at least coming up with a suggested solution as Ferrina laid out, and laying it all out to the manager.

        Because no matter how hard you try to maintain boundaries you’re the one dealing with everything coming at you, and before you start dropping balls you want to have made the situation very clear to your boss about the inevitability of this happening and what appears to be needed. This might be to share all possible info, or it might be more to make sure they can’t say “I didn’t know it was this bad, why didn’t you tell me?”

        One other thing to add to your discussion with your manager is coverage – the need for this is really obvious after your recent experience and you’re going to have sick days, time off, etc. and can’t add a backlog of work to your already full plate each time you return to work.

    5. Hlao-roo*

      Agreed that you and your manager will need to solve this together. I think it will help if you take some time to list out all your tasks and perhaps add rough time estimates (ex. Task A – 5 hrs/week, Task B – 2 hrs/month) so you both can see what you can accomplish in a 40 hour work week. Then you and your manager can work on priority tasks for you to focus on, and tasks to hand off to other employees/hire a new person to handle.

    6. Synaptically Unique*

      I’ve had a few new positions approved over the years. Justification has generally been a combination of overall workload (e.g., we had ~100 widget requests annually 2018-2021, 2022 had ~150 requests and 2023 is on track to hit ~200 requests with no change in staffing OR we’re now supporting 3 departments instead of 2) and a change in scope or potential change in scope (e.g., we’ve seen widget quality issues traced back to supply chain changes and could get the quality of shipped widgets back up to standard if only we had staffing to do QC checks). I always throw in one duty that includes backup responsibilities for another role for exactly the reasons you’re describing. As far as writing the duties for a whole extra position, start with the tasks you (or other staff if you’re bringing them into the conversation) hate or struggle with the most. If you want to add new duties that aren’t being done but should be, you can decide if you want to take those duties on and offload some of your less favorite tasks or if you want someone else to do them. A lot of our tasks overlap on paper, but individual duties cover different parts of the process. Also aim for 75-80% (for you and a new person) actual workload because you need some breathing space. If everyone is working at 95-100%+ all the time, you can’t absorb anything to cover for someone on leave or deal with an emergency without everything falling apart.

    7. Not teenage but still ninja turtle*

      You have to let things fail. It’s so hard to do, but right now, because you are handling it, it’s not a problem to your supervisors–the work is getting done so who cares if it burns you out to do it?

      If you keep juggling all this, then it is a problem for you. Work a reasonable about and drop the rest. Make it a problem for your manager. Show your company that it isn’t sustainable.

    8. BubbleTea*

      Maybe it doesn’t need a whole person – but something else might need the other half of a person, or someone might want part time hours. I know part time is less common in the US and I assume that’s because of the health insurance aspect, but it’s often the ideal option for many people.

    1. Girasol*

      I’ve seen this in the private sector where a manager will ask for long hours and foregoing vacation days to complete a time sensitive effort on schedule. IMHO it becomes a problem when the manager gets in the habit of lining up one crisis project after another so that it isn’t a “just this once” thing, but people are consistently overworked and forbidden to use their vacation days.

    2. TeenieBopper*

      Non unionized school district post capitalist hellscape Texas gonna non unionized post capitalist hellscape Texas, I suppose.

    3. Pretty as a Princess*

      They are so busy laying off librarians that they are telling the HR folks to hunker down? Yikes.

        1. DistantAudacity*

          Meankng: Chaotic, flailing, too much in all directions

          «Det var helt Texas» = « It was completely Texas»; usage: «I went into the store with a massive sales on – it was completely Texas!»

          :)

          3. TeaCoziesRUs*

            I AM a Texan (not a proud one right now, though), and this just tickles me! Hello, Norway! :D

    5. Cellbell*

      I’ve worked in HR at a school district, and the summer months (especially August) tended to be the busiest since there’s always a lot of hiring, separations, transfers etc. As an overtime exempt staff member, I worked a lot more than 40 hours each week during the busy season, but I’m still taking issue with the overall tone of the email and the specifics around the expectations. Checking in to see if there’s more work every day at 5? That’ll be a nope from me.

  15. ThatGirl*

    Things not to do in interviews, part 6,432:

    My husband’s team is hiring, and his boss is really interested in teachability – understanding that not everyone will have direct experience, but if you’re willing to learn, she’s on board.

    They had an applicant who looked good on paper, was doing OK in the interview, and then got asked about a moment where a previous supervisor corrected them and what did they do.

    This person’s answer was to share a time when their boss said they were doing something wrong, but “my boss was wrong so I just kept doing what I was doing.”

    Better yet, husband’s boss had someone else ask the same question, just in case the applicant regretted that answer or wanted to give additional context but … nope, same answer, doubled down on it.

    1. ecnaseener*

      It’s so nice when people tell you what they’re like and save you the trouble of finding out later!

    2. Elle Woods*

      Yikes. At least they found that out before the applicant was hired. I gotta hand it to the applicant though; it’s nice that they gave a consistent answer.

    3. Tio*

      I interviewed someone and we asked them about a career accomplishment they were proud of… and they told us about how they convinced a current company client to switch to their new company when they left. So, basically a direct violation of pretty much any non-compete. Please don’t make non-compete violations your “best accomplishment”.

      1. Elsewise*

        I once interviewed someone and asked them about an accomplishment and she straight-up said she didn’t have any! This wasn’t a fresh out of school first job person, either. I said it could be something small, it didn’t have to be a big award or anything, just something you were proud of or your boss said you did a good job on, and nada. I followed it up with a question about taking feedback and she sighed and said “my boss is a real b-, so I get a lot of feedback, all negative. I just ignore most of it. I figure if it’s serious they’ll just fire me.”

        I did not hire this person.

        1. NotBatman*

          WHAT. I trust you that this wasn’t a 17-year-old who’d never had a job before, but by gum does she sound like a 17-year-old who’d never had a job before.

        2. Csethiro Ceredin*

          I also had someone tell me they dealt with negative feedback by just trying to ignore it.

          Then proceeded to complain about several people in their personal life at length.

    4. FrogPenRibbets*

      Had a similar interview. At one point I asked the guy what his ‘hot button’ issue was in managing (I was hiring for a warehouse that a had a lot of personalities and needed to know that this person would be able to effectively manage a very eclectic group of people). He went on a 10 minute rant about tardiness that was just over the top. Think words like “Disrespectful” “won’t tolerate” “No Excuse”

      I moved on knowing he was done… but later in the interview I asked why he left his last position. His answer “I was fired for being late too often”

      Insert every meme that comes to mind about confusion here… I was able to thank him for his time and shoo him out the door. Go figure he started to pester me about the job shortly after that interview.

      2. Irish Teacher*

        Hmm, I wonder if he had a manager who ranted at him like that when they fired him so he assumed it was the attitude bosses were supposed to have about late employees and assumed you’d want him to show that reaction.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Thank you, I am latching onto this rational explanation, as I feel overwhelmed by cognitive dissonance in the world’s humans.

    5. Roland*

      I love it. For even the mildest behavior question, there might not be a right answer but there’s lots of wrong ones…

      I once had a candidate say that if they had to do a project with someone who wanted weekly meetings, while they the candidate preferred to always stick to emails they’d…. just do the whole project alone. Ok!

    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I was hiring for a medical coder.

      “What is your favorite type of service to code?”
      “I’m actually looking to get away from coding at all, I’d rather move into IT.”

      … Then why on god’s green earth are you HERE applying for my surgery coder position.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        I trained a new CSR once; on the last day of a week of training, she quit. The reason? “I didn’t realize I’d be talking on the phone so much.”

        I take pizza orders. Over the phone. She spent a week training on the phone. I have no idea what magical job she thought would begin after a week spent training ON THE PHONE.

    7. Samwise*

      Reminds me of the time we had a great (we thought) candidate.

      “Tell us about a time when you made a mistake at work. What happened, and how did you handle it?”

      “I can’t answer that because I never make mistakes”

      Chuckles all around. “So ok, but could you tell us etc”

      “No really, I don’t ever make mistakes at work”

      Committee members glance around at each other, I say “Oh, everyone is human, we all make mistakes! All of here on the committee could give you examples! It doesn’t have to be a big mistake.”

      “I just can’t truthfully answer that because I don’t make mistakes at work”

      In our post-interview discussion, one of my colleagues remarked, “But they do make mistakes at interviews!”

      1. SnappinTerrapin*

        I wonder if she “filed a complaint” with corporate about being pressed for an answer in the interview?

  16. is it me?*

    About a year ago I got a major promotion at work, which included moving departments to one I had worked in previously, but not for several years. A few weeks ago I initiated a conversation with my boss after I noticed she had been very short/grumpy with me. I asked her if there was something that was frustrating her about me and my work. She admitted that she was disappointed in my job performance. However, when I asked her to give me specific examples, she could not give me any. She did say she needed to be “more of a leader.” I gave some examples of times I had shown leadership, which she agreed with, but again could not give me specific examples of times she wished I had stepped up to show more leadership. She also said that I had been hired to “help her” and that I was taking up more of her time to manage than she had anticipated. So what I am wondering here is, does my boss suck, or is it possible I’m just kind of bad at my job? I am fairly high up in my organization now so I am wondering if I am just sort of missing something about being a more senior manager.

    Additional context: My position was newly created, so there was no specific list of job duties to be handed over to me. My thought is if there were specific things my boss wanted me to take over, she should have just communicated that to me, but my impression is she wants me to step up and take things on without being told. Also, we did our annual reviews a few months ago but she never went over mine with me. I asked her to send it to me so I could see it, but she said she wanted to review it with me in person, which hasn’t happened.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      A boss who gets grumpy instead of talking to you when they think you’re not performing well is a them problem, not a you problem. Maybe you’re not performing as well as you could be, who knows, but how are you supposed to know that if she refuses to tell you and won’t meet with you to discuss your performance?

      I’d also ask her what she means by “help her”. Does she think you’re her assistant? Did she want to unload some work responsibilities onto you and just didn’t?

    2. Pretty as a Princess*

      Sorry you are experiencing this. It is directly rooted in the lack of clearly defined responsibilities/expectations for the position, which is a failure on your boss’s part.

      My recommendation would be to think about your boss’s role & responsibilities and what YOU see as the priorities & responsibilities most appropriate to your position. I would draft those up, and ask the boss for a convo and say something along the lines of “I think that we need to get clearer about where you want me to prioritize – this is a first draft and I’d welcome your feedback about your expectations so I can get us on the same page.”

    3. Lily Rowan*

      It sounds like she is not a great manager, but also you could be more proactive/aggressive about taking things on, and it might help.

    4. Try This*

      Rather than trying to assess if she is wrong or if you are wrong, try approaching this from another angle. Since this position was newly created, ask her what her ideal version of the person performing this role would be like. Try to get her to give you as much detail as possible. One of the problems here might be that your boss is reluctant to criticize you personally, and she is hesitant to give you any feedback. If you can de-personalize the interaction by talking about an imaginary 3rd person performing the role, you might have better luck.

      1. is it me?*

        She keeps asking ME what my vision for the role is. (I feel like she’s giving me a test and I keep failing.) I also asked her to please give me more feedback as I take corrective feedback very well, which she agreed is the case on the occasions she has given it to me.

        1. Generic Name*

          Your manager is ineffective. It’s a management job to come up with job descriptions for their subordinates. I take it this is a small company. You have 2 paths to sanity: 1) write your own job description and get her to approve it. Don’t include anything you hate doing or are bad at; or 2) get a new job.

          If you wait for her to do her job, things will get worse. The leadership she wants to see in you is you doing her job for her (but for less pay, natch).

        2. Lily Rowan*

          I have to say, this is why I don’t apply for jobs that have “entrepreneurial” in the posting — I am good at doing my job, but not great at making it up.

        3. goddessoftransitory*

          It sounds like she thinks any guidance on her part is “more work” and her only real image for your role is “you taking stuff off my plate without me having to do or say anything.”

          That vague version of “leadership” also points in this direction–take the lead! Without any input! You’re just supposed to kinda know what to do!

    5. Ashley*

      Is there another manager or division you could ask for feedback since you manager isn’t helping? Something low key with someone you have a friendly relationship with?
      Food for thought, are there things that she does that you could be doing? What could you take off her plate on a regular basis?
      Also, has your department gotten extra busy in the past year where two people might have been able to handle the load a year ago, but things keep growing and maybe you are a 2.3 people now.

      1. is it me?*

        Right after I started most of the people who were supposed to be my direct reports quit (complicated situation, having to do with two departments merging and someone in a different leadership role behaving badly) so I have been doing their jobs as well as my own.

    6. WantonSeedStitch*

      Your manager sucks at coaching and giving feedback. Now, does that mean that she’s wrong about you having areas where you need to improve? Not necessarily. It does sound like what she wants is for you to be more proactive about shaping your own position. I think what might help is if you say to her, “it sounds like you want me to be more proactive about shaping my position and taking on new work. Is that right?” If she says yes, then the next step is for the two of you to sit down and talk about what the priorities should be for you. I would go into that conversation with a list of things that you think are the biggest pain points for your team that are within your power (or might be within your power) to improve: “Need to streamline X process,” “need to ensure all members of the team are trained on Y so we don’t have to rely on Wakeen to do it all.” That sort of thing. It can help to ask other teams that work with yours, “what could our team do to work better with yours?” That can highlight some challenges or areas for improvement. When you have your conversation with your boss, ask her if she agrees with you that those are priorities, and if not, listen to what she says would be higher priorities for her. Then start coming up with some plans to make change. Check in with her as you formulate your plans to make sure you’re on the same page, and continue to keep her in the loop as things progress.

    7. Synaptically Unique*

      I’ve hired people into higher-level roles where they are expected to be independent and I can agree that when that’s the expectation, it’s exhausting to have someone who wants/needs direct instruction/supervision. It’s also tricky to be in a new role with ill-defined duties and expectations. I agree with the suggestion to look around and come up with suggestions and recommendations for addressing pain points or improving workflows. Make sure you focus on substantive instead of petty changes. Write it all up, take it her as a rough draft and see where things stand. I wouldn’t go back to her and ask if this is what she wants. She’s already told you she wants you to be a self-starter, and at least she’ll have a baseline for direction if your ideas aren’t exactly what she had in mind. I find that when I’m overwhelmed, I get much further if my staff brings me a rough draft. Even if they took something in the complete opposite direction, I have a clear place to start pulling my thoughts together.

    8. gyrfalcon17*

      “My position was newly created, so there was no specific list of job duties to be handed over to me.”

      Was there a job description for the position? If so, can you use that as a basis for starting a conversation with her? (It’s possible the job description was inaccurate though if TPTB couldn’t/didn’t correctly envision what your boss would want.). If there isn’t a job description, start with getting one created. (Does your boss want you to create the currently non-existent job description from scratch yourself? That seems unreasonable.)

    9. somehow*

      Your boss sucks. She doesn’t know what she wants and is blaming you for it. I’d go elsewhere if possible.

  17. Former Retail Lifer*

    I have a medical condition which can occasionally but suddenly affect my vision, so I made the decision years ago not to drive. I live in the city and close to public transportation, so, while my job options have been limited to the areas served by public transit, I’ve always been able to get to and from work without issues. I’m looking at changing jobs and maybe industries, but I literally can’t find anything that doesn’t require, at minimum, at least local travel between sites. Using public transportation would take too long and impact the job too much to use it several times a day (as opposed to just to and from). My background is in retail management (not looking to ever go back), property management, and sales. Any suggestions for industries or positions that are solely at ONE location? My current position has made a reasonable accommodation for me to attend meetings in other cities via Teams if there is no one to carpool with, but it seems like everything I’m seeing would require too much driving to make this reasonable.

    1. Warrior Princess Xena*

      Oh ouch. That’s really challenging. One thing you might try, depending on your area: in the region I’m in the city is focusing on building affordable housing near major public transit lines, which I would presume would lead to property management positions. Is it possible the region you’re in has anything similar? Sometimes the not-for-profit and government sectors are better at accommodating challenges like this.

      1. Former Retail Lifer*

        The majority of the new builds out here are deep into the suburbs where there’s no transportation, and, sadly, our city has zero interest in making more affordable housing. There are always property management job openings here, but the competition is extraordinarily fierce for them and I haven’t been able to get many interviews.

    2. Shirley Keeldar*

      Would it be possible to request cab fare as an ADA accommodation after accepting a job? If you can’t drive for medical reasons, but only need an employer to subsidize occasional travel, that might work? Good luck!

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      To be honest, I feel like there are a large range of office-based roles that are in one location, which makes it hard to have suggestions of roles/industries.

      For some reason, academia came to mind. Roles in fundraising (your sales background could be relevant), student affairs, or campus housing.

      1. Andi*

        Working as a professional fundraiser actually usually involves frequent travel, and at least sometimes to places where public transportation is either unavailable or impractical to use for your prospect visits.

        1. GythaOgden*

          Yup. I worked in a regional two-person office as a fundraiser with responsibility for contact databases. I went to two places in my year there — one London peace and reconciliation conference and one trip to the site that the charity ran as a retreat/respite holiday centre (for families of chronically ill/disabled children who struggle with the logistics and expense of going on ordinary holidays but still need time away from home)/religious reconciliation centre (Northern Ireland, so focusing on bringing two tribes with distinct Christian sectarian identities together, so yeah, the charity had an overt religious focus but on the highly inclusive end of the spectrum).

          I don’t drive, but I’m in the UK where transport links are easy to use — but even then I still had to catch a lift with another person from the Belfast office by car to the north coast to get to the centre in question after I got off the plane from southern England.

          I was just the office dogsbody but my brief certainly involved those retreats and engagement with the core mission. I just sent out letters and emails asking people for money but it was definitely in the job description that I got to travel, and it was a lovely perk that I enjoyed simply because I enjoy traveling and our public transportation system is functional. For someone without that mobility, it would be very tough.

    4. Kez*

      If there’s a college or university nearby, those campuses are often designed to be walking and transit friendly, and in cases where some small amount of driving is necessary, I think discussing it as a disability accommodation would likely yield the sort of assistance you’d need. Heck, I work at a college and you can get a bonus/stipend if you commit to not driving or to carpooling to save on parking spots and help the planet. A background in property management and retail management (assuming that in retail you would sometimes be managing young people) will also give you some potential ins at a campus with students living in residences there.

      Similar to the above, hospitals and any other sort of facility that has a “campus” are often actively looking for fewer people to commute by car, because arranging adequate parking for staff and visitors is difficult. These are often also the kinds of locations prioritized by public transit, since transit authorities know it’s important for someone who can’t drive to be able to get to medical appointments.

      Honestly management experience in general is a pretty valuable skill, so I echo the commenters that say there should be a variety of office gigs that meet this criteria. Anyplace that has things like “occasionally attend conferences offsite” or the like should be able to accommodate non-drivers with taxi and bus fare to get from your house to a bus to whatever destination. That’s pretty much the definition of a reasonable accommodation.

      Wishing you luck in your job search!

    5. Armchair Analyst*

      technology b2b sales are almost all remote these days.
      unfortunately a lot of technology firms with A+ sales teams have laid off a lot of their sales people since January. so it’s a tough market.

      if you are good at training/teaching, that might be ” all at one location ” I’m not sure

    6. The traskmaster*

      I suggest you move to New York City (ideally Manhattan) or Chicago, or perhaps central Miami, Boston, or DC. If you can get a work permit, perhaps go abroad — if in North America, maybe to Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver or Mexico City.

      The bottom line is you need to be in a highly urbanized area where it’s normal to forego automobile ownership. Those are really the cities in the US where lack of car ownership is compatible with a high-powered career.

  18. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    Do you think your job is entirely trainable or do workers need certain things you can’t train? How do prospective workers figure out if they have what it takes?

    unrelated – how long do you think my great grand boss will remember that I ran out of the building during a fire drill? I had the worst week, disaster after disaster and I realized I also have to help plan the Christmas party and I think the fire drill was just too much on top.

    1. Lady Ann*

      I work in community mental health and there are definitely skills that are not trainable, or at least not trainable within the amount of time and effort that a workplace is able to put in. If someone just doesn’t know how to connect with people, I’m sure that’s something they could fix with a few years of their own therapy, but that’s not something we have the resources to teach them. Same thing with organizational skills. We have definitely had employees that just can’t figure out a way to organize their workloads even with coaching and support by managers. I think those folks just need a more structured work environment.

    2. Alex*

      I work in a tech related job, and it is mostly trainable, although certain innate strengths are helpful. Some people are good at attention to detail, and some are not–that is hard to train on. But you can learn programming languages that you didn’t know before easily.

      Unrelated–aren’t you supposed to run out of the building during a fire drill? What did your boss want you to do, practice fighting the fire?

      2. I Have RBF*

        IMO, in tech there is one thing that is not trainable (I’ve tried): The ability to learn, especially on your own. Things like research, google fu, knowing how to use an index in a book, all of these basic, basic things to fill in details are just… essential. This is stuff you should have learned in grade school, but some folks just… can’t. But there is enough ambiguity that it really is essential.

        Sure, when I started I wasn’t very good at it, because my manager didn’t realize I didn’t yet have the fundamentals down. Once I got to somewhere that they gave me a bit of a framework, I was off and running.

        1. Not Totally Subclinical*

          Yes. I’m not formally trained in tech beyond one college intro-to-programming course (the only time I have ever used Scheme), but I have no problem teaching myself what I need.

    3. Colette*

      I think portions of my job are not (reasonably) trainable – things like being assertive at the right time and having the right level of attention to detail are only trainable if you start out close to where you need to go.

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      My job is half technical and half strategic, I guess? I got trained on the technical parts, but I was hired because I had the strategic experience necessary for it. The strategic parts are about being able to get a broader sense of how we work, seeing big picture stuff, making decisions that benefit most people, not just people on specific teams, and it’s not my experience that lots of people are good at that. I don’t want to say that people can’t be trained to be broader thinkers than just their piece of their puzzle — they can — but it definitely feels like one of those things where people who think about things in a certain way are more suited for this role than people who think about things in other ways.

    5. not a hippo*

      Most of my job is teachable but what isn’t teachable is critical/forward thinking. You have to be two steps ahead to succeed here and while that isn’t difficult (to me), it’s difficult to get people to think about the future.

      Say I work for a teapot making factory and we go through an average of 3000 lbs of clay a month. If we’re down to our last 1500, it’s time to order more. But getting people to think about that ahead of time is a struggle.

      1. I Have RBF*

        Ummm, how can they not realize that… nevermind.

        I do that type of planning and buying for my household of five adults. One of my roomies doesn’t get it, so she’ll not bother to tell me when we are low, or even out, of essentials until she needs some more. Then it’s a three ring circus to get it, with her blaming me for not magically knowing we were running out, when she’s the one who used everything and didn’t tell me! (Our consumption rate of some things isn’t constant, unfortunately.)

    6. Irish Teacher*

      I think there are things teachers need that you can’t train. Less than you would think, but I think people need to have empathy – this is one of the main problems I’ve seen with teachers who struggle. They can’t put themselves in their students’ shoes and get annoyed by “how come such a student can’t understand Maths? I’ve explained it to him dozens of times. He’s just not trying! Is it because he doesn’t respect me” when the student has a disability in the area or is going through trauma outside school or has other issues going on that have an impact on his ability to learn.

      I also think you need a passion for your subject. Looking back at my own school days (and college days too), you could tell the teachers who really cared about what they were teaching and/or cared about their students doing well versus those that were just going through the motions. If you aren’t interested, it’s going to be very hard for those you are teaching to be.

      I do think you can train more of it than people sometimes think. Good discipline is definitely something you can train. It’s not just about being “scary”. But I do think that if a person doesn’t care about their students or the subject they teach or finds it difficult to see things from another point of view, they are unlikely to be successful. Perhaps those things could be taught, but I don’t think it’s very easy.

    7. ecnaseener*

      The main soft skills for my job are reaaaally good communication skills. Both comprehension and explanation of very complex information. We can give lots of training and support on the key requirements to look for, and that’ll get you to passable, but we can’t really train you to have good enough comprehension to notice things not found on the checklist. To do the job really well, you need a “years of education” level of reading comprehension and possibly an “if you missed out on good early childhood education and/or are missing a certain innate talent you might never get there” level. It’s similar with the flip side of explaining the information, though that’s a little more coachable.

      How candidates figure out if they’re suited for it – I think just through reading the job description & the interview. It’s not such a glamorous job that I’ve ever had people asking me how to break into it or anything.

    8. Choggy*

      This is an interesting question because I work in technology and can say, without a doubt, there are people who are just built for this work and those who aren’t. Critical thinking, being open to learning something new every day, being proactive in problem solving, taking ownership of my responsibilities are a huge part of what I do, and are part of my makeup, no one taught me how to be that way. I have a coworker who should never have gone into this field, who has to ask their teammates the same questions, never explores or figures things out on their own, by trial and error, and can’t perform the most basic of tasks without a lot of hand holding. They take no ownership or responsibility, and resorts to weaponized incompetence at every turn.

    9. Potatoes gonna potate*

      I’m in accounting.

      These are things I learned at each job – how to properly do a tax return. What things to look for in a return, how to communicate with clients (surprisingly it’s differed at each job). How to manage workloads. How to read financial statements.

      “untrainable” to me means something that can’t be trained for at work; an individual can certainly try on their own time with therapy or other tools/practice, but most workplaces wouldn’t have those kind of resources available. So to me that would be….attention to detail? How to figure out how to use the software if it’s not working right away. How to find information both external and internal.

    10. WantonSeedStitch*

      The “unteachables” I tend to look for in my job (prospect research) are a general sense of curiosity, proactiveness (especially regarding communicating with people), and a knack for analysis. We can teach some of the analysis we do, but some people have minds that are just more apt to find connections between things that others might overlook. If I don’t see those in a candidate, I don’t want to hire them.

    11. Samwise*

      Not entirely trainable.

      Requires an ability to establish rapport quickly, empathy, ability to read others emotions; critical thinking (especially on-the-spot problem-solving); ability to independently plan and execute one’s own work.

      Requires integrity. Requires genuine respect for others.

    12. Mill Miker*

      My Job is a bit of a general troubleshooting, long-term planning, finding short-term wins and kind of vaguely defined for what is a very technical role.

      The thing I’ve found nearly impossible to teach to others is the reliable intuition needed to look at a complete mess and determine which (metaphorical) levers are even worth trying, let alone which ones will help. I’m not trying to say I’m at all perfect at this myself, but when there’s too many possibilities to just brute force a solution, you need to be able to make really good, informed guesses.

      On a related note: Being able to look at all the options/tools/information etc. you have available, and spot what’s missing. It’s really heard to make a checklist for figuring out what’s missing from your checklists.

      These things can definitely be learned, but trying to train someone else in a workplace is like trying to teach someone how to solve riddles.

      For figuring out if you have what it takes, I’d be asking yourself how comfortable you are with the idea that no one will be able to provide you a process to follow or really any actionable instructions, even if they can give you a lot more information about whatever problem your solving.

      1. Cedrus Libani*

        My job sounds a lot like your job. We’re the folks in the home office. The “support of last resort” when the field team is stumped. The people who give the final answer to questions like “can your technology do XYZ”, particularly when the answer is “we don’t know, but if you’re willing to supply X and Y we’ll give you a free box of Z and we’ll figure it out together”. It’s perfect for me, but definitely not for everyone.

        I didn’t know the technology coming in – it’s fairly niche, so unless we poach one of the nerdier members of our field team (and we do!), we don’t expect new hires to know anything about it. But that’s easy to teach. What’s hard to teach, as you say, is the intuition needed to look at an unholy mess and come up with a reasonable to-do list. You can improve your skills and confidence as you get more experience, but at some level…either your brain works this way, or it doesn’t.

    13. DrSalty*

      I work in medical writing at an agency. Writing skills are generally trainable, but soft skills that are really critical for success (time management, flexibility, professionalism in dealing with difficult clients, etc) are much harder to train on the job. You can definitely learn those things, but if I’m choosing between two candidates where one is a fab writer but with awful time management and the other is an ok writer with GREAT time management and experience working with difficult personalities, I would pick the latter candidate to hire 10/10 times.

    14. Sparkle Llama*

      I would say anyone can be trained to be adequate at my job but the difference between adequate and good is largely untrainable. You can get better at the softer parts, but if you don’t have a natural inclination towards helping people you are going to really struggle.

      Also – were you not supposed to leave the building during the fire drill? Seems to defeat the point of the drill.

      1. Irish Teacher*

        I assume the point is that you are supposed to leave in an orderly fashion in order to ensure people don’t just all start running, which could lead to somebody being knocked over or something.

        Teaching is a particular case, but we are supposed to tell the students to leave the room, then close the windows and the door and then lead the students to a designated assembly point. Of course, in most jobs, you don’t have people dependent on you but I presume there would still be a procedure.

        1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

          yes. but the administrative assistants did note that they would have told me it was a fake one if they knew I was so easily frightened..At work I try to cosplay as a mentally well person so of course no one would know in advance that I would have had such a strong reaction. I’ve been on emergency calls and been calm the whole time, etc.

          1. Irish Teacher*

            Sounds like they are feeling more guilty for stressing you out, rather than judging you for rushing.

    15. Jello Stapler*

      Our roles need strong people skills that we can usually see through a person’s experience (if they have had the type of jobs that require the skills) and also in their interview. They also need organization skills and if they just need help on how to apply that to the role its fine- but if they are very scattered and disorganized it won’t work.

    16. Notmyjobreally*

      I always say, there jobs I wouldn’t hire me to do. On the other hand, my boss kinda just throws me at a problem, and I can analyze and find what causes it and where it went wrong. unrelated I think running out of the building during a fire drill is a reasonable response. I might possibly smirk and suggest I was merely leading the group.

    17. Irish Teacher*

      I don’t think running out of the building during a fire drill is a huge deal. The point of drills is so that the confusion happens during them and then, ideally, you are more organised if there is a real fire.

    18. There You Are*

      My job is not entirely trainable. There are a lot of situations where you have to make a judgement call, or tie a whole bunch of seemingly unrelated things together to make a decision or to create a solution to a brand new problem that no one has ever encountered before.

      We have people in my department who have been here several years longer than I have who can’t seem to make all the “unrelated” things fit together. They’re great when you give them a huge stack of Tab A’s and tell them to insert all of those A’s into their respective Slot B’s, but they don’t know what the A’s and B’s are, let alone why they need to be paired up permanently.

      Which means they’ll never know how A & B, or A-inserted-into-B, could possibly facilitate C.

      I was grumbling about one of them to a friend of mine and she said, “So it’s like they can’t tell Tuesday from Wednesday?” And I said, “No, it’s like they have no concept whatsoever of ‘days’ and how those ‘days’ make up these things called ‘weeks’; and I need them to be thinking in terms of ‘months’ and ‘years’, which they can’t do because they don’t even know what ‘days’ are.”

      So the ability to take in a ton of information — by reading, hearing, seeing, and doing; and then connecting a million tiny dots — isn’t something we can train. You either have that capability or you don’t.

    19. goddessoftransitory*

      Wait, are you…not supposed to exit the building during a fire drill?? I think I may have been doing life wrong!

      1. GythaOgden*

        Exit the building, yes (unless you’re trained otherwise, as some of us have other duties in a fire situation such as seek and rescue or, as were trained in the health service, to also make sure patients are safe and can be moved safely). Run — no. Walk briskly so you remain situationally aware and aren’t in danger of tripping and falling, as falling down might end up with you injured and requiring resources taken away from those who are in need of help, but also create obstacles that other people need to get round.

        It’s risk management — the safer you are, the more the fire and rescue services can focus on those who are genuinely lass mobile. Training and drills are there to ensure you know what to do in an emergency and not start panicking — because when people panic, they’re not making safe decisions and can just create more unsafe situations than there already are. It’s easier to navigate these situations if you’re calm and able to ensure that you don’t compromise the safety of others. It’s counterintuitive and there’s a lot of crappy YouTube videos from teens rebelling against what they see as absurdity — but if you fall and break your ankle, you just make more work for the emergency services where it could have been avoided, present more of a risk to those behind you and prevent the more vulnerable staff from being able to get out.

        Please get out of the building ASAP! (As someone who has a job to do in an emergency situation, we don’t want you loitering in the building for longer than necessary debating what’s going on. Save that for when you’re at the assembly point.) But don’t do it in a way that might end up making the situation a lot worse.

    20. goddessoftransitory*

      In reply to your first question: I think the ability to deal with repetition and detail. Because I’m in food service, lots of people assume “a monkey could do that job,” but it’s really much more like a very cutting edge but narrowly focused jazz club–one theme with endless little variations that all have to be correct.

      Now most people can get better at code memorization and such–that’s where repetition comes in handy; you will remember the code for No Tomatoes until the day you die–but coordinating typing, talking, and making sure orders are correct all at once is something some people just cannot achieve.

      (And of course there’s also the soft skillset of handling all sorts of customers on the phone–most totally normal but some drunk, some high, some deciding you are their counselor or potential new girlfriend…)

      1. Not Totally Subclinical*

        My first job was a summer working at a fast food restaurant. Yes, I learned that it wasn’t something I wanted to do with my life, but I also learned that food prep is a skill, and I really hope that the manager who could chop eight heads of lettuce in the time it took me to do one eventually got a job at a higher-end place.

    21. Yikes Stripes*

      I’m an in home caregiver for elderly people and ahahahahahaha oh man. You’d think that my job would be extremely trainable, but it turns out that you can’t train common sense or being able to stay calm in an emergency situation much less figuring out how to stay the right kind of casually cheerful while helping someone use the bathroom or bathe.

      I’m very very very good at what I do, but the industry as a whole is underpaid and doesn’t exactly attract the cream of the crop.

      1. allathian*

        Kudos, you’re doing a job I could never contemplate doing. I have a kid, so changing diapers and potty training and all the accidents that can happen were all in a day’s work when he was a baby and toddler. But I’m not sure I’d be capable of helping my parents with such an intimate task, and if I’m honest, I hope I never have to find out if I can do it or not. The idea grosses me out, TBH.

    22. Not Totally Subclinical*

      The individual tasks I currently do are all trainable.

      The ability to realize these tasks need to be done, to come up with procedures that work, and to keep on top of them while also responding to one-off situations? That I don’t know how to train.

    23. GythaOgden*

      Definitely trainable here. Even an Olympic-level introvert like me (I mustn’t get a purely remote job otherwise I’d just never leave home at all!) can learn to be on reception!

      More broadly, you learn on the job. Unless you really refuse to use the phone (and I actually prefer it because you can speak to someone in real time and get an immediate answer), you can learn the ropes. After ten years I’ve developed a thick skin — in healthcare, I have a healthy level of empathy for callers because of my own health situations in the past (I was treated by one of the clinical psychologists who works for our trust, albeit in another building, and it’s really pleasing to see him when he comes in to get his IT kit replaced) so I can be a listening ear while toeing the party line and not just giving in because they yelled at me. Some things have become more traumatic — I have difficulty navigating calls from hospice procurement and the hospital where my husband received most of his specialist treatment, but I can steel myself since I’m only ever deciding who to put a caller through to rather than having to, e.g. source syringe drivers or talk directly with the oncologists themselves.

      I’m also in Facilities, so a lot of my job is maintenance requests and keeping an eye on jobs so they actually get done. I’m interested in that kind of area as I move into a more administrative-focused role, but it’s something you can pick up on the job.

      The best conversation I ever had about hiring practices was with the guy who runs the IT helpdesk (let’s call him Gordon because he raised geckos at one point). Gordon was very enthusiastic about people who could learn on the job — he was a techie himself, and had come up from that direction, but he said he looked for people to staff the helpdesk who were natural problem-solvers and could talk people through a complicated fix. He also valued his staff immensely — one of his immediate juniors went on maternity leave and he brought in a replacement, Taz, because of a year’s leave being standard here. Gordon got along with her replacement so well, that when she returned to her old job, he found a new niche for the replacement guy so he could keep hold of his skills. Taz has been here about 9 years in total now; the lady who went on leave joined the 2020 WFH exodus but Taz has come back mostly in office.

      So, while some fields are going to require specialist knowledge, many just need someone who is adept at learning the specifics as they go. And those of us like me and Taz who work well temp to perm are more used to jumping into a new role and acquiring specialist knowledge as we go.

      —-

      Fire drill — as a first responder myself, we’d really appreciate it if you go careful. Running can cause people to trip and fall, and that’s a major cause of serious congestion if you end up being an obstacle to other people getting out of the building. Many horrific incidents — both fires and stampedes — have been made worse because someone stumbled and fell and sent others flying as well. Locked doors are one major concern in fire situations, but the responsibility of employers to provide safe environments does not mean employees are off the hook to conduct themselves calmly in a dangerous situation.

      It’s counterintuitive but Do. Not. Run. I doubt we’d be lecturing you over it after the event, but panicking in a situation just makes it worse — you need the practice drills to ensure you know how to evacuate a building safely. Next time, walk briskly and efficiently but remember — more haste, less speed.

  19. Justin*

    At a conference for work, and this is the second conference I’ve done with this job, but now that I know a lot more about the business and industry and have some concrete successes under our belts, it’s a pretty cool feeling to be confident in approaching people (and yeah, the Dr. on my nametag does help).

    I say this a lot but it is almost boring how simple the fact that I am well paid and treated like an adult at my job has greatly increased my success at the work. I know it’s not possible in every job to immediately trust your new people, but the risk/reward is so low (ie the reward is much higher than the risk) when you put faith in people that it’s really a silly thing when companies don’t do it. My last job was so extremely petty over absolute nonsense and this job trusted me with huge projects fairly quickly.

    1. Reba*

      Congrats and have fun!

      re: treated like an adult — my spouse is currently in a job where the immediate team respects his expertise, but the company as a whole is a real “low trust environment” and it’s amazing to witness how the head honchos burn through goodwill over just pointless stuff.

      1. I Have RBF*

        Sounds like where I work. The company grew like topsy, so each little sub-company is in its own little silo, and they are obsessive about restricting access to Every. Little. Thing. It’s worse than the federal government. They have a lot of turnover… I wonder why…

    2. NotBatman*

      I feel this. I’m constantly amazed at how much better I am at my job — and how much easier it is to do well — now that I’m no longer working for the company that had me doing 1.5x as much work for 0.75x the pay.

    3. HR Exec Popping In*

      Posts like this make me wish AAM has a “like button”.

      I totally agree that it is amazing when leaders take the chance to trust their team members and that the benefit almost always outweighs the risk. I’m glad you found somewhere that values you and treats you like a professional adult!

  20. cabbagepants*

    I let social awkwardness work for me yesterday and I wanted to share.

    My boss asked me about whether I wanted to extend am the contract of an intern that he hired without my input. This intern has no relevant experience and training him to help me with my work would take a minimum of eight months. I don’t see it as worth it and have already told my boss this on two other occasions. The intern has a small project that I gave him that should naturally wrap up by the end of his original contract.

    My boss, though, had a palpable but unspoken desire for me to find this intern significantly useful to me and helpful with my own work. I think my boss is under some pressure to reduce my team’s workload and so it would really help my boss if I played along that this intern was helping me, rather than costing me time and effort in training.

    Rather than caving to my boss’s hints and leading questions, though, I kept my answers really simple and literal, and turned the biggest questions back to him, such as having him define his expectations for interns, so I could then tell my boss that the actual experience was different from that. It got really, really awkward but at the end he agreed that it didn’t make sense to extend the internship.

    Sad for the innocent intern who should not have been hired in the first place, but hey, now he has this internship under his belt and he can use the line in his resume to find a position that suits him better.

    2. Tio*

      Ohhhh, this is the “truck tires” intern, yes? that has been a fun saga to watch from the peanut gallery

      1. cabbagepants*

        yeah hahaha I left out the metaphor this time since it seemed like it confused people! I’m glad that someone is enjoying watching it lol.

    3. goddessoftransitory*

      The thing is, having this particular intern around? Would be the opposite of what he needed! No matter how he might be able to temporarily spin it!

  21. Audiophile*

    I’ve had this happen a few times now, and I find it hilarious and weird all at the same time.

    I interviewed with a company recently, then a few days later, emailed the recruiter to withdraw from the position.

    This week the recruiter followed up to say the team was going in a different direction. Um, ok.

    I’m not sure if recruiters feel like it’s a way of wrapping up the process, but it’s incredibly strange as a candidate to receive an email like this. As far as I’m concerned, once I’ve told you I want to withdraw, what you do after doesn’t matter to me.

    I’d think the more professional option would be to simply thank the candidate for their time and wish them luck. Leave it at that.

    1. Hiring Mgr*

      It could just be an automated email that goes out to all the candidates who weren’t selected

    2. ecnaseener*

      I’m guessing they just weren’t terribly organized and didn’t take you off the list.

      1. NotBatman*

        Yes. I’ve gotten a job offer from a company I’d already turned down, so clearly it happens.

    3. Jello Stapler*

      I’ve gotten the same from a position where I withdrew my candidacy. I think it’s just an automatic thing as they close the loop in their HR systems.

  22. Princess Buttercup*

    Biggest work pet-peeves – go!

    I’ll start:
    -Requests for calls with no context as to what the call would be about/IM messages that just say “hi” and nothing else.
    -Pushing back meetings right before (or after!) they’re to start.
    -The phrase “please advise”.

    1. Our Lady of Shining Eels*

      A yell to help out a colleague on the info desk (hello libraries), colleague then abandoning you with the patron, with no context of what you’re in for.

      1. Sleepy in the stacks*

        Even worse when it is a problem patron. I’ve been called over to assist and then abandoned with one of our biggest creeps so many times.

        1. Our Lady of Shining Eels*

          Happily, my coworkers and I will invent emergencies that require the trapped coworker to come to the back RIGHT NOW

    2. londonedit*

      YES to your first point! I absolutely hate it when an author emails me and just says ‘Please give me a call’. I immediately think something must have gone terribly wrong, or they must want to have a go at me about something, and I hate feeling immediately on the back foot because I’m having to ring them without having a clue what I’m going to get when I do. They could at least say ‘I’d like to talk through my text corrections in person, would you mind giving me a ring?’, in which case I can make sure I have the relevant proofs open and ready, or ‘I’m not sure about how the design is looking – can you call me to discuss?’ – just give me SOME clue as to what you want to talk to me about! Don’t make me ring you totally unprepared!

      I also hate pushy authors who act like their book is the only thing I’m working on.

      1. Princess Buttercup*

        Yes!! Also, when they just say “please call me” and you do… it’s almost never urgent or it could have been an email. UGH.

        1. londonedit*

          Yep. It’s usually one extreme or the other in my job – either it’s a two-second question that I could easily have answered in an email, or it’s ‘I just wanted to make sure I’m doing these corrections right…can I run through them with you? OK, so page 34, paragraph 3, line 2, can we change “definitely” to “probably”…then page 46, last paragraph from the bottom, line 4…’ ARGH.

      2. ecnaseener*

        Yes, and it’s also such an inane thing to do……if you want to talk with me on the phone, call me. If I’m available, I’ll pick up. This is quicker than waiting for me to see the email and call you. If I’m not available, you can leave a voicemail (TELLING ME what you want to talk about) and I’ll listen to the voicemail at the same time I would be seeing your email (if not earlier). In no scenario do you get to talk to me sooner by emailing to ask for a call with no context.

        1. A Girl Named Fred*

          This one just set off my hatred for voicemails that say, “Hi Fred, it’s John. Can you call me back at (number)? Thanks.” If you’re leaving a message anyway, please TELL ME WHAT YOU NEED.

          1. Csethiro Ceredin*

            I hate that so much. or worse, something like “at your earliest convenience.”

            The vast majority of the stuff people call me for would necessitate reading through a file first to be able to give them the answer/decision they want, so this just wastes both our time and messes with my prioritizing.

        2. Mimmy*

          My supervisor sometimes does this. If I’m home, she’ll text me asking me to call her with little context. I may not always have my phone handy, so it may be a few minutes before I see her text. It’s usually not urgent, but if you want to talk to me, just call me yourself!

    3. Colette*

      “Gentle reminder” – I haven’t seen that one much lately but it really annoys me.

      1. YMMV*

        The alternative is “why the FUCK did you forget about this” so I’m gonna keep using gentle reminder.

      2. anomnom*

        Thank you!! So patronizing. I’m a pleaser who constantly works on not softening communications but this annoys the absolute hell out of me.

      3. somehow*

        The bane of my existence. What – am I too fragile for just, ya know, “A reminder…”?

        Good call, Colette.

    5. anomnom*

      I have made it a core tenet of my being that I will never respond to a “hi” IM unless it’s from a work pal.

      -“Circle back”: No. I’ll follow up, thanks.
      -“Appreciation events”: I don’t need gross, cheap pizza that 100+ people have breathed on, served on my lunch break so that I don’t even get a break at all that day. I need growth opportunities, respect, transparency, and leadership who don’t consider one-to-two remote days per week extremely generous (this is strictly enforced)
      -Expectation that because our job is philanthropy, we should all be donating to the entity (higher ed; I could understand a bit more if we were saving baby seals or our planet)

      1. Coffee and Plants*

        The “hi” IMs kill me! I always get “how are you today?” Just get to the point! lol

        1. Ashley*

          I have learned this is person dependent. I have been told I am to abrupt I to soften my tone so unless I am working with another hyper focused person I do that … but it does mean I put off some interactions until I can allocate additional time.

          1. ecnaseener*

            It’s totally fine to start your message with “Hi, how are you?” Just keep typing your whole message before hitting send please!

            1. I Have RBF*

              This.

              I will start with “Hi Bob. Do you have any background on ticket PS-12345? It just landed in my queue and Joe said you had worked on something similar previously.”

              IOTW, it will have the pleasantries, but it gets to the point quickly.

        2. anomnom*

          Haha, the “how are you” leaves me thinking, “well, I was fine but are you about to change that?”…I’m paranoid {shrug}

    6. Coffee and Plants*

      – Asking for everything to be treated as an urgent request
      – Requesting a call late on a work day, especially calls that aren’t a big deal (often after I would have already logged off for the day)

      1. Princess Buttercup*

        There’s a special place in hell for people who suddenly need to call you at like 4pm on a Friday. Wtf. Wait until Monday, Steve.

        1. Irish Teacher*

          Oh, related to that, the person who asks a complicated question that requires a long answer just as the staff meeting is finishing up. Especially if it’s about something that doesn’t even matter anyway.

          1. Jello Stapler*

            Or they need clarification on something that was already explained 5 times in the meeting.

        2. Mockingjay*

          The best part about getting old (lol) is that I finally have the seniority to ignore Steve. I have the vast experience to know with certainty (in my industry), it REALLY can wait until Monday. Waiting until Tuesday is entirely reasonable as well.

    7. LemonToast*

      There’s this person at my job who will join meetings 10-15 minutes late and then after a few minutes of listening to the discussion, he will interrupt and rehash everything he THOUGHT we said and say it like it’s the first time anyone ever talked about it. Then awkward silence ensues and someone says, “Yes, we were just talking about that.”

      I’m all for repeating things back to make sure you understand, but he takes it to a new level that shows a complete lack of understanding of any part of his job, or anyone else’s job. And the part that annoys me the most about him is – he makes way more money than me but has less responsibility. :/

    8. ecnaseener*

      Totally agree on your first one. But IMO even worse than the “hi” chat message is the image with no text attached — like if someone sends a screenshot with no context and only then starts typing their question about said screenshot.

      It feels like if you walked over to my desk and wordlessly held out a picture for me to look at lol. And on a more practical level, it feels like you want me to look at the picture and start trying to guess what your question is while you’re typing. (I’m sure that’s not what the intent is, I acknowledge it’s a very petty peeve.)

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Arrrgh, it’s like when Husband just looks at me and then starts getting impatient that I haven’t responded to–what? What, dude? Use your words!

    9. Shiba Dad*

      Multiple projects being “top priority”. This would happen in meetings where we discussed all of our projects. In one meeting I had a “Top Priority Count” on my notepad and we had six in that meeting.

      When we would talk amongst ourselves about a project, one of us would ask something like “Is this top priority A or D?”

    10. Past Lurker*

      Everyone seems to think that we all have a private office in which we can take zoom calls. I’m in a cubicle farm, so don’t “zoom” me for something that needs privacy!

      1. fine tipped pen aficionado*

        It’s hard to find a professional way to say “what the hell do I do with this?” and someone will be annoyed by whatever phrase you use. That’s why it’s a pet peeve. It’s just a peeve, not a real problem, and it’s a me thing not a you thing. :)

        1. Princess Buttercup*

          Yep – I usually go with “are you able to help or direct me to someone who can?” or something like that. The thing I don’t like about “please advise” is that (and this is all the ‘pet peeve’ not a real problem stuff) usually comes after a paragraph of telling me about an issue and it’s always said with a period at the end which feels like a demand. Tone is hard over email/IM, but the times I’ve seen it used it has come across as “I have a problem and you need to tell me how to fix it.” That may not be how it is intended, it’s just how I read it.

          It doesn’t help that I’ve had some real life bitchy people put that in their emails, which has probably soured it for me.

      2. Josame*

        I use ‘please advise’, too. I use it when I have conflicting information. I use it to mean “well, which is it?”.

        2. Pocket Mouse*

          Genuine question: do you want the snarky/nonplussed tone to come through? If yes, sure. If not, maybe ‘Please let me know whether you’d like to go with X or Y’ or similar phrasing would grease the social wheels. I had someone aim a ‘please advise’ at me during my hiring process and I never quite trusted her to care about obstacles I faced after that.

      3. RagingADHD*

        I use it in context of, “Here is all the information I have gathered, and here is my recommendation. However, nobody but you can make this decision, so make it already.”

    12. Ann. On a mouse.*

      I’ve been guilty of rescheduling a meeting right before it started. But, to be fair, it was a meeting to teach a process for when a vendor confirms planned maintenance (or not) for one of our systems, and the vendor was late providing the info, so we didn’t know if we’d actually have to do the process or not.

      1. Princess Buttercup*

        Oh I’ve had to do it too! Me adding it in there is more a reflection of having a boss who does it to me CONSTANTLY. Like 7/10 meetings I have with him.

    13. Chauncy Gardener*

      When my company’s sales people send me contracts to review and don’t put the customer’s name in the subject line. They KNOW how many contracts I look at in a week. Help me find the original email! Sheesh. I’ve only asked them numerous times…

      Plus when people Slack me with “hello” or “good morning” and nothing else. Just please tell me what you want and be done with it.

        1. tangerineRose*

          Yeah. I’ll be busy working and am interrupted by a Slack message. No biggie, someone might need help. But the message just says “Hi” or “How are you?” or something. I know the person has something they really want to say but haven’t said it yet.

          So I answer with “Hi” or “OK” or something, and then I get to either wait the long minute or 2 while they type, or I can try to work on something else, knowing that at any second, I’m going to be interrupted again.

      2. ccsquared*

        I also work in a sales adjacent role, and I wish we made 1+ year in a project management or project support capacity a requirement for account executives. Good sales people know you control what you can control and make it easy for people to help if you want the process to go fast, but there’s also a lot of chaos monkeys and shoot-from-the-hip types out their surviving on grit and gumption.

    14. fine tipped pen aficionado*

      – When people just start talking to me without making eye contact or saying my name. I am focused on my work; how am I supposed to know you’re talking to me?!
      – Constant rescheduling!!! Stuff comes up but if this is the fourth time you’ve rescheduled this particular meeting maybe it just isn’t important!!!
      – Constantly being asked the same questions about basic functions of our dept by ppl who should know better than I do (this may rise above the pet peeve level)
      – Cell phones with the ringer on and watching videos/holding virtual meetings in shared spaces without headphones
      – Too many signs. We all know they don’t work and if there’s 12 signs saying not to do stuff in the kitchen it’s just bad vibes. IDK can’t explain.

    15. Anonymask*

      Oh, the meeting thing gets under my skin! It feels like they don’t respect my time when they do this (constantly, as they do over here).

      When someone sends a message over the company IM system with a request for assistance, and it just says “Hi” as it’s own line to… get my attention? The requester clearly wants something, why not just tell me what it is so I can better assist instead of pinging me multiple times via IM with “Hi” then “How are you” and “Are you free?”. Just send one message (or an email!) and tell me what’s needed. All three of those (separate) messages could be the first line of the request if they feel so strongly about it.

    16. WantonSeedStitch*

      Mystery meetings. Meetings with no agenda and no clear purpose stated in their title that appear on my calendar.

      Managers who don’t advocate for their teams. I had one grandboss once who was great about saying she was going to champion the team and push back against unreasonable requests that served no strategic purpose, but when she actually met with the requesters, she caved every single time. Sweet person, but maybe TOO sweet.

      1. ccsquared*

        100% to both of these, and the worst people are the ones who send mystery meetings and then react as if you’ve insulted their grandmother if you dare to ask for context in advance. 9 times out of 10 that’s a sign that they’re about to ask you to do something you’re not going to want to do, or they have no plan for doing something they need to do and think shooting the breeze about that is going to help them sort it out.

    17. Lizy*

      I LOVE “please advise” lol. I use it when we’ve tried to get an answer and they refuse, or give conflicting answers… look, we did our part, now you do yours. mmkthanks.

      But yes, requests for calls is pretty high up there. Especially when it’s “as soon as possible”. Like, com’on. If you have a phone, and it’s that stupid urgent, YOU call ME.

      Anything Google-drive/Google-docs related. My current boss, while very nice and good in many ways, loves Google-related stuff and I REALLY DON’T LIKE IT lol.

      1. DrSalty*

        Same, I love please advise for that. Tell me what you want, I’m not a mind reader.

      2. Mimmy*

        I’ve never been able to grasp anything Google-related (I have Gmail, but I use Outlook to read those). I don’t use Google at work currently, but I did at an internship last year, and I just was not getting it.

    18. Irish Teacher*

      This isn’t related to the work itself but colleagues gathering right in front of the fridge, microwave and kettle (the microwave and kettle are on a worktop over the fridges) at breaktime. We have 10 minutes for break and pretty much everybody is going to be making a cup of tea or coffee or getting something to eat or drink out of the fridge so…standing and having your conversation right in front of them when everybody is coming in for break…why?

      1. JustaTech*

        There’s a senior guy in my department who had a terrible habit of standing *directly* in front of the door to the women’s bathroom to continue a conversation after a meeting.
        Like, it made sense with the hallway layout, but also, dude! I shouldn’t have to ask a senior manager to scoot over so I can get into the bathroom!

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        Yes! Please move AWAY from the water faucet and have your conversation; I have to fill my water bottle and get back on the damn phone!

    19. nekosan*

      This is how I deal with the “hi” IMs: I wait 5 minutes. If they haven’t gone forward by then, I just reply “?”. This seems to get the point across well enough. (Then again, I have huge social capital built up, so I can get away with the “rudeness.”)

    20. Jello Stapler*

      Calling repeatedly but never leaving a message. I may not be at my desk! And if I am and was not able to get to it but you keep calling, now I pointedly will NOT answer.

    21. Pita Chips*

      You’ve nailed a few of mine. An email with nothing but, “Please call me.” Context!

      I’ve used, “please advise,” usually as a substitute for something like, “WTF is going on.”

      People not showing up for meetings on time. I once had a higher-up tell me to go walk around and round people up (I was the one running the meeting). I refused, telling them I wasn’t a border collie.

      I totally get that emergency demands happen sometimes, but if you’re an adult, you should be able to be there on time or within the first five minutes.

      1. tangerineRose*

        When people say “Call me”, sometimes they have an easy question, sometimes it’s something that I have to look up and spend time on and then get back to them. So yeah, it would be good to know what they want to know about.

    22. Lurker*

      -Using “hey [Name]” as a salutation.
      -Repeatedly missing deadlines. Especially deadlines that are recurring – like X report is due every Friday.
      – Scheduling a meeting first thing on a Monday morning or last thing on a Friday afternoon.

    23. There You Are*

      If a peer or lower pings me with a request for a call, I say, “Depends; what’s it about?”

      If a peer or lower pings me with “Hi”, I ignore them entirely until they type whatever it is they want to say to me.

      If either of those things comes from someone higher up the chain, I panic about the first, and immediately respond with “Good morning/afternoon! How can I help?’ to the 2nd.

    24. goddessoftransitory*

      Guys (and it is guys 99% of the time) who think they are comedians and I am their audience during a call.
      My dude, I truly, truly do not care how funny and clever your mother insists that you are. I am not here to enjoy overpriced cocktails and encourage your self image–my goal is to take your order and get you out of my life.

    25. Not Totally Subclinical*

      The person who never cc’s me on emails that I need to be in the loop on.

    26. NPTraveler*

      I hate a long email ending with “Your thoughts?” I don’t want to be asked to write a treatise. If you want my thoughts set up a meeting or call me and I’m happy to share them!

    27. Not My Money*

      getting a phone call, hearing the person’s entire backstory, getting to and through the issue, and having to ask “who is this?”

  23. Rubies*

    How can I graciously turn off my camera during 1:1 online meetings when colleagues won’t turn theirs on?

    I tend to join meetings camera-on, unless it’s a larger group and I’m not presenting. However, sometimes I join a 1:1 and the other person doesn’t have their camera on. I usually query this in case it’s accidental, making it clear that it’s fine for them to keep it off. Usually the response is “oh my camera is on my laptop and my workstation set up doesn’t allow this”, or “I’m not feeling great today” or similar. I then want to turn my camera off because I hate it when they can see me and I can’t see them. Can I literally just say “oh, I’ll turn mine off too then”?

    I don’t want to start joining camera off just in case. I don’t especially enjoy being on screen, but I try to do so as much as possible because I need to be visible in my role, as I work across different sites and with many remote colleagues.

    I also acknowledge that I feel some annoyance at people being “camera off” in situations like this, and I don’t want my annoyance to show, so I need some gracious wording to use. I know some people have strongly held reasons that mean they don’t want to have their camera on and I’m not going to start forcing them. But I hate feeling like I’m in a police interrogation room with a one way mirror, and it feels rude/awkward to turn my camera off, like I’m suddenly hiding behind a sofa mid-conversation. I’m overthinking this, right?

    1. Princess Buttercup*

      Yeah, this happens to me all the time. I usually don’t ask why they have theirs off because I’ve made clear (I hope) before that I don’t expect it. Honestly, a lot of times I just leave mine on because I figure we’re here now, but I think there wouldn’t be an issue with saying nothing and just turning it off.

      I have lately just started coming into meetings camera off and if they have theirs on, I switch it on. That seems to be working well.

      Also, yes, you’re overthinking it, but as a chronic overthinker myself, I feel you.

    2. ThatGirl*

      You are overthinking it. Just turn it off. I do this all the time when I realize the other person doesn’t have theirs on.

    3. MsM*

      Yes, you can literally just say “oh, I’ll turn mine off, too.” Or “I assume you won’t mind if I turn mine off, then” if you think there’s some reason they might object, but it’s highly unlikely.

      Honestly, I’m not sure what the issue is with joining with your camera off, either. You can always turn it on the second you connect if everyone else has it on, or ask what people would prefer before getting started if you’re leading the meeting. You can even express that your own preference is to be able to talk face to face as best you can, but you want to be respectful of what works for others.

      1. Rubies*

        Thanks all – I’ll just be a bit more direct. I think this got to me because the most recent cases were a series of meetings I had with my downstream reports – I’m their grandboss. The meetings were about their salaries. These felt like important meetings, where I wanted to prioritise rapport and connection, so I was a bit taken aback.

        1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

          If I have a 1:1 with my grandboss I always make sure I’m camera ready, especially if it’s pre-scheduled. It about the only time I make sure I have a nice shirt on and my hair done, lol. I do get why that threw you a bit. I usually follow the lead of the higher up person, unless I’m having a really bad day.

          Now regular 1:1 with my boss, sometimes we have them on and sometimes not, but if one of us has it off, the other will turn theirs off too, because it is weird being the only one on camera.

        2. Colette*

          In that case, you could just ask. “Would you prefer cameras on or off for this call?”

        3. saskia*

          You’re the grandboss and they’re doing cameras off for a salary-related meeting? yeesh, that’s so casual of them. I’m sure people would be giving you different advice if you had said “my reports” instead of “colleagues” in the original post.

          If you’re meeting with these reports regularly, at the end of your next meeting, you can try saying something like, It’s fine that you were camera-off for this meeting, but in general, I strongly prefer cameras on unless [there’s a legitimate reason to be off/whatever sounds natural to you].

          Basically, just set the expectation of whatever you want. You can also mention it to their manager. I’d be mortified if one of my reports did camera-off when meeting 1:1 with my boss. But my job is pretty much always cameras-on unless we’re in a big meeting where someone’s presenting.

        4. River Park*

          It sounds like for you, cameras on signals rapport and connection. For a lot of people it does! But not for everyone. Just speaking for myself, video calls feel really creepy in a way that is hard for me to articulate. Having to overcome that feeling of creepiness so I can accommodate another person’s preference destroys connection for me. That’s just an example of one alternative view on the cameras on thing—I’m sure other people could give you other reasons.
          Turn your camera and your assumptions both off. If the other person has their camera on, turn yours on. If the other person has their camera off, keep yours off and don’t read anything into it.

        5. Extra anony*

          It sounds like you want them to use their cameras for these meetings – very reasonable for a salary conversation. As their grandboss, you can definitely put in the invitation “Please have your camera on for this meeting.” I’d just let them know in advance if it isn’t a given at your org.

    5. Former Retail Lifer*

      I start every meeting with my camera off. If someone has theirs on, I say, “Oops. I forgot to turn my camera on.” My company’s big on encouraging people to have their cameras on but it’s so rare that anyone actually does that I start with it off.

      1. Mill Miker*

        I used to do this just because my workplace had a culture of most people being a couple minutes late to the meeting. So I always joined muted and camera-off so that I didn’t have to just sit there quietly looking presentable for who knows how long, and then try not to startle when the next person joined.

        There was a strong culture of camera-on though, so I didn’t run the risk of the other person thinking I didn’t want the camera. There were a few times I’d turn it on, and then off 30 seconds later when it was clear no one else was going to use theirs. I said nothing about it, and neither did they.

        I tend to assume when the other person has their camera off, they probably don’t have my video front-and-centre on their screen either, so I doubt they even noticed.

      2. I Have RBF*

        Yeah, my company has a “camera off” culture for most meetings. Everyone has custom avatars that are as much their personality as their face. Considering we’re mostly remote on a VPN, it saves bandwidth.

    7. Jujyfruits*

      Yup you’re overthinking. Just turn yours off. Sometimes I’ve said things like “I don’t need to look at myself” before turning mine off. But you can also just turn it off without a comment.

    8. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I literally just turn it off with a cheerful “Oh, we’re not doing cameras today, okay!” and it’s fine.

    9. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      ever thought about going to screen sharing mode, as a graceful way to sidestep? I assume there’s some kind of document, spreadsheet, web page, what not that you’re calling about.

    10. Head sheep counter*

      This evolution of video calls basically back into phone calls is so fascinating to me. Why bother with a video call if one is literally not using the video capability? I’m phone-phobic and still think that a phone call would “feel” better than a no video video call.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        For my team, it’s because using Teams or Zoom for a video-off call is just easier to do than a phone call. You’re already looking at a screen, so clicking a button on the screen for a virtual meeting is a lot faster than searching for a colleague’s phone number and dialing it.

          1. Observer*

            This is it for us. For a lot of things we’ll still use the phone. But if anyone thinks that we may need to share links, documents or screen? Video conference is the way to go.

      2. Generic Name*

        Phone calls don’t allow for screen sharing. I look at maps, plans, aerial imagery every day for my job, and it’s super helpful for both to be looking at the same thing.

      3. Head sheep counter*

        Sharing content is great. But this sounded like a one-on-one with no use of the video capabilities… which… is a phone call.

        For Teams or Zoom – I have to put on a headset… and then click a button. I suppose if I were able to use my setup without a headset it would be easier. With a headset… seems like its equal for a phonecall.

        FWIW when I woke up this morning I never imagined advocating for a phonecall. :)

        1. Mighty midget*

          All our work calls are via Teams, even if we’re phoning a landline or mobile number with no video or sharing capabilities.

          All internal calls are therefore Teams calls, with video sharing capability, whether you like it or not! We literally don’t have any other work phones.

      4. I Have RBF*

        Simple: Screen sharing is the purpose to have video calls instead of phone calls. You don’t need to see their faces, but you sure do need to see that list of non-compliant systems that need to be remediated and how, or whatever else the important thing is.

    11. Generic Name*

      I just turn my camera off if it’s obvious I’m the only one with it on. I might say, “I feel weird just looking at myself, so I’m turning my camera off, ha ha.”

    12. WantonSeedStitch*

      If you’re in a 1:1 and the other person has their camera off, don’t query it. Just say “I’m going to go no-camera too” right away, and do it.

  24. Our Lady of Shining Eels*

    Literally just had a coworker try to take my cane away from me, because I’m “too young” and “don’t need it to walk.” I am in my late 30s, and periodically have to use a cane.

    Readers, we are in an extreme heatwave, I have a heart condition, and I’m barely upright because of those two things. He would only give it back to me because I said I needed it to get a seat on public transit. I already have a phone call scheduled with HR on Monday to talk about accommodations, and seriously wondering if I burn this bridge with this coworker by mentioning this little incident.

    1. MsM*

      That’s…yikes. I’d be asking HR if you can connect today if I were you. But yes, definitely mention it.

    2. ScruffyInternHerder*

      ::record scratch::

      HE TOOK A PIECE OF YOUR PROPERTY THAT HAPPENS TO BE DME? OH HAYLE NO.

      I’ve got kerosene and matches for your discussion with HR. What kind of bargain basement audacity purchased in bulk from Sams Club does this coworker think he HAS? Its not his. It doesn’t sound like he has any authority to, you know what? No. Stop at “its not his property and its not in his job description to question medical needs and diagnoses.”

      2. NotBatman*

        Also: HE TOOK AWAY YOUR ABILITY TO WALK SAFELY?!?!?!??! BASED ON YOUR APPEARANCE!?!?!?!?!?

    3. Juicebox Hero*

      Burn, baby, burn. He lost any right to your respect by swiping your property (a medical aid, no less), being a know-it-all jackass, and not giving it back until you gave an explanation that satisfied HIM. I’m only glad you didn’t fall or faint and hurt yourself.

      People have to learn that disabilities, inlcuding invisible ones, can happen to anyone of any age whether or not they “believe” in it.

    4. Warrior Princess Xena*

      He took your cane, a needed piece of medical equipment, because he didn’t think you needed it. I’d say the bridge has been burned, and not by you. Tell HR asap!

      1. BigMove*

        Seconding the tell HR ASAP. At the very least email them ASAP to document that it happened. His actions were completely acceptable!

        1. Tio*

          Man I would have been on the phone with HR the minute he said no the second time First time, maybe a bad joke. Second no? HR is now on speakerphone.

      2. ferrina*

        +1000
        HR needs to know this. At my company, HR would be upset if you didn’t tell them.

    5. Rick Tq*

      Burn it unless you really need to stay on good terms with this jerk.

      Fergus had absolutely no business policing HIS rules about who should use a cane, and I will bet this isn’t the first time Fergus Rules have been inflicted on the undeserving.

      This should get him a documented stern warning.

      1. Our Lady of Shining Eels*

        YEP! That’s the thing. We’re both union (the joke at our job is you only get fired for one of three things: embezzlement, assault, or timekeeping), and he is the one who fixes all the things for several locations – and since his office is in the basement, he always makes our location high priority.

        I wound up talking to him and explained, AGAIN, that because of heat/medical condition, I need the cane … to which he replied I need more electrolytes. *face palm* I have documented this in an email to myself, wrote down who witnessed the interactions, and am saving it if he continues to be an idiot.

        1. Rick Tq*

          The next time he touches your cane report him for assault, battery, and theft. Threatening to take your cane is assault. Touching you to take it is legally battery, and taking it a way even for a moment is theft.

          This guy needs to go, he can be replaced by someone who isn’t an abusive jerk.

        2. Observer*

          Well, he’s coming pretty close…

          Document this, talk to HR, make sure your union knows about this, and don’t worry about your relationship.

          If your union is halfway decent they are not going to go to bat for him too hard if he keeps this up and you keep documenting it. But regardless of his firing or not, you have no reason to try to keep up a relationship with him. He’s bad news all around. Nut just an “idiot”.

        3. goddessoftransitory*

          This has to be a violation of the Americans With Disabilities Act. I don’t care what union you’re in, these outrageous actions open up your company to a lawsuit.

          I’ve got his damn electrolytes right here.

            1. I Have RBF*

              Me too. He doesn’t get to tell you that “you don’t need a cane, you’re too young” or “you just need more electrolytes”.

              It’s not his place, his job, or his right.

              Shut that down ASAP.

        4. I Have RBF*

          We’re both union (the joke at our job is you only get fired for one of three things: embezzlement, assault, or timekeeping)…

          Taking your cane is ASSAULT.

          He does not have the right to give you fucking medical “advice” (fuck his electrolytes BS).

          He is waaaaaaay out of line.

          He needs to be reported to HR now, with details, or he’ll do this shit to someone else who can’t stand up for themselves. Not “if he continues to be an idiot”, but now, after this instance. He doubled down on his trying to diagnose and treat you, FFS.

    6. Meg*

      I *would* absolutely talk to HR about this. What he did was incredibly inappropriate! Its like someone taking the glasses off your face because you’re “too young” to need glasses. wtf!!

    8. Pretty as a Princess*

      Burn it to the ground. You absolutely need to talk about this with HR.

      (Think about it this way – why are you worried about burning a bridge with someone who clearly already decided to nuke the bridge by stealing your medical equipment and playing keepaway like a 5th grader?)

    9. Elle Woods*

      I’d be burning up the phone lines with HR immediately about this. Don’t wait until Monday.

      And torch that bridge with this coworker.

    10. LadyByTheLake*

      HOLY MOLY!!! A coworker essentially assaulted you, took your private property, disregarded your disability in a highly problematic way, and you are worried about HIS feelings and calling this a “little incident”??? This is an outrageous incident — I can’t even imagine waiting until Monday to report this to HR — call them now! If he does this to you, imagine what he may be doing to others. If he doesn’t get fired (which he should), he should be groveling at your feet begging your forgiveness for being such a bigoted, overbearing ass.

    12. Jujyfruits*

      My jaw dropped. He took your cane? No. That’s a huge no.

      Up to you if you have the energy to deal with reporting him. I’m so sorry that happened.

    14. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      Holy shit. That’s an absolutely horrible thing to do. Imagine pushing someone out of their wheelchair or stealing their guide dog because they didn’t fit their idea of what a person who needs a chair or a dog looks like.

      I am so sorry.

      And then he wouldn’t give it back to you till you gave him a good enough reason?

      PLEASE burn this bridge all the way down. If you can’t muster up the outrage for yourself, imagine what he might be doing to others, current or future (or past! And maybe HR WANTS to fire him!). He needs to be reined in immediately.

      Wow, I am just so sorry he did this to you.

    15. Sara without an H*

      This is not a little incident. This is a major violation and yes, you do need to report it to HR.

      Do you and Grabby Coworker report to the same manager? If so, I really recommend telling them about it ASAP. If one of my reports did this, I’d want to know about it.

      Yesterday.

    16. ThursdaysGeek*

      Wow. It’s so nice they know so much more about your body than you do. Yes, you should mention it to HR.

    17. anywhere but here*

      Piling on to join the bridge burning encouragement because wtf that is so very messed up.

    18. SereneScientist*

      Holy shit. No, you will not be the one burning the bridge, your coworker already did by this insane overstep.

    20. not a hippo*

      Please speak up! What he did was not ok. Chances are he’s a prick in other ways and HR should know about this.

      He needs to know there are consequences for his asshole behavior.

    21. Head sheep counter*

      My dear… if he took your computer… you’d report him. Right? Because its theft or appropriation of property not his own. I can not imagine a situation in which I would touch someone’s personal property like this let alone take it from them. This is very very far from ok. If your cane was simply there because you felt fancy today and planned to do a tap dance routine… it still wouldn’t be ok to take it. As a medical device its HORRIFYING.

    22. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      WTactualF.

      Set that bridge on fire. Your coworker should get major, serious consequences for doing that to you. What’s he going to do next, tell people with glasses they just need to put their faces closer to the computer screen? Take a diabetic coworker’s candy they might need to regulate their low blood sugar because it’s not real food/unhealthy? Etc. etc.

      I really hope you also bring this up to his boss, and to your boss (if they’re not the same person). He is way, way out of line.

    23. Canadien*

      What the hell goes through some people’s minds? That is so utterly bizarre and I’m sorry you have to deal with it.

    24. Stoppin' by to chat*

      OMG please don’t downplay that incident. I would absolutely mention it! What is wrong with that person!

    25. My Brain is Exploding*

      Your coworker already burned the bridge. Also, PLEASE let us know what happens with HR!! And sorry you are feeling so awful.

    26. different seudonym*

      THIS IS SO NOT OK! I know you know that, but I want to make sure you feel justified in your protest.

      People def do shit like this all the time. They are terrified at the thought of disability (which to them = their own mortality; endless narcissism at play here) and they lash out with harassment and often physical bullying. It can be **really dangerous,** especially because they often escalate when challenged. I think you must report, right away, and if I were you I’d BOTH define what this…person…did as assault and harassment, AND remind them that the company (not he) is who gets sued if you are denied a workplace accommodation or injured through his behavior.

    27. HR Exec Popping In*

      PLEASE tell this to your HR person. For goodness sake. As someone with a disability I find that type of ablest behavior disgusting. Your company needs to do some work on inclusion.

    29. WantonSeedStitch*

      Tell HR NOW, not Monday. “I know we’re meeting Monday, but I wanted to tell you this right away. Fergus Pinkerton just attempted to take my cane away from me, citing my age and claiming I don’t need it to walk. Between my medical condition and the heat, I’m barely upright at the moment, and absolutely DO need it to walk. If he had refused to return it to me when I insisted, I would have been immobilized. I need you to make sure this does not happen again.”

    30. Anonymask*

      I think everyone already covered all the bases, but just to really bring the point home:

      He burned the bridge on his own. Report him to HR (and move up the meeting to today if you can). If you feel especially petty and don’t need a decent bridge this guy, there may be non-work related places you could report him as well. Don’t feel bad for “getting him in trouble” because, again, he got himself in trouble with his bad behavior. Why give him any more mental space? Get HR involved for accommodations and probably some company training about how to act appropriately.

    31. Bananapants Circus with Dysfunctional Monkeys*

      Set that bridge on fire. That’s unspeakably unacceptable. I’m so sorry

      – fellow cane user who has unfortunately encountered this herself.

    32. RagingADHD*

      You are a lot nicer than me if you are worried about burning a bridge with this piece of work. I’m glad you didn’t fall over and hurt yourself.

    34. Observer*

      I already have a phone call scheduled with HR on Monday to talk about accommodations, and seriously wondering if I burn this bridge with this coworker by mentioning this little incident.

      Two thoughts here.

      1. This has nothing to do with “accommodations.” This has everything to do with people acting like basic decent human beings rather than like a bratty toddler. At a fundamental level it doesn’t even matter whether you actually NEED this cane or not. It’s beyond none of coworker’s business. And it’s beyond outrageous that he took something of yours and then only gave it back when you begged and gave him a reason that he considered “good enough.” Of course the fact that you have this meeting scheduled means that this is a perfect time to bring it up, but this is something that needs to be dealt with even if your company can’t give you any accommodations.

      2. Why do you care about burning the bridge? I would have thought that this bridge was already dust and ashes – why would you have anything but the coldest professional relationship with someone so disrespectful?

    35. Tiffany Aching*

      I am in HR and if your HR is at *all* competent, they will want to know about this ASAP so they can shut it down. This coworker just opened up the company to multiple flavors of discrimination and/or harassment lawsuits. Please call them today and then follow up with an email documenting it.

    36. Captain Vegetable ( Crunch Crunch Crunch)*

      Your coworker just pooped on the bridge- burning it is the only way to sanitize it. Sweet, cleansing fire.

    37. Roy G. Biv*

      Burn that bridge. He’s a jerk. “He would only give it back to me because I said I needed it to get a seat on public transit.”

      The fact he put his hands on it in the first place? Jerk! And only gave it back when you gave a reason that he found satisfactory? MASSIVE jerk!

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        And that he found “I use it to lie and take seats away from the actually disabled” AN OKAY REASON???? That the OP had to pretend to be as disgusting as he is to get back her necessary medical equipment???

        There are no words. No. Words.

    38. Girasol*

      Aside from the fact that this is wrong, what was his motivation? Why would an employee with a million things to do take time out of his day to steal someone’s cane? He wanted to bully or harass her? He was trying a schoolboy’s trick for getting attention from someone he liked? Either way, he’s already burned the bridge with you.

    40. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I’d make an immediate complaint to HR with the demand they officially order him to NEVER again do anything like this to you or any other disabled person.

      Sod being polite when subject to such dangerous disableism.
      I have visual & hearing disabilities and if someone had tried to take my (thick & ugly) specs I’d have lost my shite and shouted loudly at him (because I would be in danger of bumping into things & falling over, which has caused me injury in the past)

    41. goddessoftransitory*

      Burn the bridge?? That entire infrastructure should be aflame! I am literally sputtering with disbelief at this person’s audacity and ignorance.

    42. Nightengale*

      That is harassment

      I have had people take my cane at work and didn’t say or do much about it besides ask for it back, but the motives and circumstances were different. I work in health care and don’t need my cane for shorter distances so I don’t take it into patient rooms. (Better for infection control also.) So I would leave it outside a patient room and people would take it. Sometimes to tease me. (not funny.) More often because they thought it belong to a patient and never thought it could belong to the young student doctor. I always got it back right away. If someone had actually said they took it because I was too young to need it or made me negotiate the return, I would have ADAed that one all the way up the chain.

    43. Not Totally Subclinical*

      Your coworker already burned the bridge with you by trying to take your necessary assistive equipment from you. You don’t need to worry about burning the bridge. Tell HR.

    44. GythaOgden*

      It’s only been said to me once, but I replied with details of the incident that made me have to use it and they shut up.

      My mother is allowed to say it to me because, yeah, truly, I don’t like using it either and I am looking for physiotherapy/exercises that might help ease the pain and reduce my reliance on it. She’s involved in my health decisions because she helps me out to pay for private attention (because obviously the free NHS care is decided on the basis of medical need, and I think a private physio can give me more time and attention than an NHS one can. My personal budget stretches to mental therapy but not physio, and I have to keep her away from being blinded by quacks, but it’s worth it to keep her and her pursestrings onside). I know my mum is saying it because she cares for me and doesn’t like seeing me in pain — I’m not a parent myself but it’s an entirely understandable motivation — it’s depressing not having mobility when I should be in my prime.

      But I don’t know the motivation behind others so it’s one of the few times I will play the grumpy card to get them to understand. The funny thing is, they probably wouldn’t say that to me if I was in a wheelchair — but because I don’t ever want to be that way (there are people who find one liberating, but when your health and mobility are suddenly taken away from you that’s not generally the case) and am keeping as mobile as I can, they make silly comments like that.

    45. WorkingRachel*

      I am so angry on your behalf. That is very Not Okay. Please feel free to burn all the bridges with this person.

    46. A Frayed Knot*

      I know I’m late, but I have to applaud your patience. If someone did that to me, I would call the police and demand to press charges for theft. Plain and simple. Don’t even give the union a chance to defend him. Have him taken to the police station and see if he changes his attitude.

  25. Introverted Cat Lady*

    I work with a lot of extremely extroverted people. Think a group of people who all have main character syndrome. I work in a hybrid setting and the days I am in the office are utterly exhausting from dealing with their need to constantly treat every single thing like a major performance, talking over other people, stealing projects to get credit, talking behind people’s back (especially the introverted person), etc. It’s terrible. I come home exhausted, defeated, and feeling worthless because I am quieter. (And have the capability to listen to others unlike this lot.)

    I am working on finding another job, but that takes time as I work in Higher Education and everything moves slowly. How do my fellow introverts who deal with extreme extroverts who are like theatre kids who treat every single aspect of their life like they are preforming on a Broadway stage? (side note: I do not work in the drama department or anything remotely near the arts.) Any tips on how to survive the day?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      On the home front: are there any rejuvenating alone-time routines/activities you can plan for on your in-office days? Whatever that looks like for you: taking a long bath, playing your favorite video game, anything that you can look forward to during the workday and helps combat the feelings of exhaustion, defeat, and worthlessness.

      On the work front: are the exhausting behaviors (talking over people, stealing credit, etc.) happening sort of ambiently around you (like in a cube farm) or during interactions you’re part of (like in a meeting where you need to pay attention, give input, respond, etc.). If it’s the first, can you tune it out? Wear headphones, listen to music/a podcast/etc. If it’s more in meetings, that’s trickier. I recommend reading the book Quiet by Susan Cain. If I recall correctly, she shares some workplace strategies that worked well for her; they played to her strengths as an introvert and allowed her to weigh in on important decisions. Some of them might work for you too.

    2. Juicebox Hero*

      I don’t think extroversion/introversion has anything to do with it; I’ve had to endure drama llamas who are introverts as well.

      I pretend they really are characters in a show that’s on in the background that I can’t shut off (like at a doctor’s office or something) and therefore give myself permission to riff, critique, and mock (inside the privacy of my own head, of course).

      If they try to drag me in I try to just smile pleasantly and respond with non-answers.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        +1 on the advice

        +1 on pointing out that this isn’t about introversion or extroversion.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Inner David Attenborough voice as a way to gain distance. “Here we see an assistant provost in her natural environment; let’s watch and find out how she’s misinterpreted the latest tenure guidelines.”

    4. WhaleToDo*

      If I were in that situation, I would try and harness one or more of the extroverts who wants to think of themselves as a compassionate hero. (I imagine you’ll have at least one in this sort of group.) Get them to adopt you as their cat who gets stressed by loud noises and interpersonal conflict. What that actually means in a professional context is that they can echo your ideas or redirect attention to/from you during meetings, they’ll stop gossiping to you, they can try and manage the group to tone it down instead of you having to do all the work. You stop putting in so much social energy at work and show people how draining they are (e.g. if you’re going to grin and bear it, make it a strained grin, or just start completely ignoring their drama and being cold/aloof when people are being annoying), putting in effort around those who are trying to be considerate of your different personality and work style. Make sure you’re good at your job and don’t bother socializing at all outside of that. That can lead to negative professional consequences in some realms, in others it can gain you a reputation for good judgement and work ethic, so take this advice with a grain of salt.

    5. Samwise*

      They’re not like this because they’re extroverts. They’re like this because they’re assholes.

      People can have BIG and DRAMATIC personalities, they can be extroverts, without being assholes.

      Doesn’t solve your problem! But I think your solution (finding another job) is the way to go.

    6. MaryB*

      The extrovert-hate on the website based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the terms extrovert/introvert is getting extremely tiring.

      You work with people that have strong personalities. It sounds like that’s not a good culture fit for you.

      1. MaryB*

        Sorry, I submitted the comment instead of a paragraph break.

        While you’re looking for a new job, are headphones an option? In the hybrid workplaces that I’ve been at, most of them have some flex seating or empty desks are pins. Can you move somewhere else for a few hours? I do that sometimes when I need quiet – I find an empty desk near the finance or legal departments. If coworkers ask where I’m going/where I’ve been, I just say I needed a change of scenery.

        Overall, I think a change in mindset will be most helpful. They’re not bad for being loud, they’re just different. People have different personalities. With those personalities come different strengths and weaknesses. If you can focus on what your colleagues do bring to the table, you may be able to appreciate them a little bit. I find annoyance goes way down when I can see the positive things about someone instead of only their annoying traits.

    7. DrSalty*

      Noise cancelling headphones helped me so much when I worked in an open office with very annoying people. Just tune it out.

    8. cncx*

      I have a front facing job that drains me as well. I find I rest the best at home without technology or visits. I schedule one day a weekend where I just…don’t have People Noise.

      I also found I just don’t have the bandwidth if people in my private life are Main Characters so I’ve had to reorganize some priorities, meet them less, or, in the case of some family members, dip when they want to ruminate, relitigate, recycle or otherwise use me to Talk Things Out more than once a week.

  26. Coffee and Plants*

    Those that have completely changed your career path in your thirties (being faced with potentially starting in an entry level job all over again even though you had a mortgage and other thirties-related bills), I’d love to hear your stories.

    I’m facing burnout in my current job, where I’m in a senior position, and I want to do something (ANYTHING) else, but my pay is good so it’s tough.

    1. Cruciatus*

      I’m sincerely asking this–are entry level or senior position you hate the only options? While your pay is so good, can you take classes? Get certified in something? Is it the position that’s tough or your workplace? Is there anything that would make your current position better (admin assistant or something like that)?

      1. Coffee and Plants*

        I’ve kind of painted myself into a very niche role. I don’t like the work itself very much and frankly, I don’t feel like I’m very good at it. I’m completely stuck as to how I can apply the skills I have to any other job except maybe proofreading, but I kind of need to maintain my salary to a point, too. I’m intentionally being a little vague but I’ve been considering taking copyediting classes. Not sure how much of a boost it would give me!

        Can you tell I’m a little discouraged at this point? haha

        1. Cruciatus*

          I think you should try the class! If that’s the area you’re trying to get into then it’s a good idea to see if you even like it! Assuming it doesn’t cost a billion dollars, what do you have to lose? And maybe you’ll realize you hate it but that’s valuable too. You can try to pinpoint what you don’t like about it and apply that to other jobs so you can rule them out too. But if you love it, maybe there are a lot of different areas you could apply it regarding jobs, and maybe your current skills too might give you an edge. Not knowing anything about any of the jobs you mentioned, I have a friend who makes bank writing technical manuals (I think for Amazon. Maybe Google? A big name). So that’s about all the knowledge I have in that arena, but I bet the right kind of thing is out there–just a matter of finding it. I wish you luck!

    2. Jujyfruits*

      Start by figuring out what you want to do next. It can be tough if you just want to get away from something. Can you take some time off to reflect? Figure out what skills will transfer to other fields. Do research. Figure out what you might like (or not).

      Career changes do not mean starting over in an entry-level job. Salaries may vary but your skills are your skills.

    3. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      I was able to switch from senior to mid-level in my pivot, because it was a different role but in a related field and context, so some of my experience transferred. It was hard going from being super-competent to newbie mode, but I didn’t literally have to start at the bottom.

    4. Head sheep counter*

      Have you considered a career coach? Chances are you’ve obtained valuable skills that can be applied in a variety of ways. Talking this through and working with someone might help you from starting at the bottom.

    5. Miss Thymia*

      No stories to share, but I’m also very interested in hearing from others who’ve done this!

      I’m sort of half in this boat. I’m not walking away from an established career (random floundering for much of my 20s and then SAHM in my 30s) but I am looking to start a career for the first time now that my kids are older. I’ve had to stop thinking about what I thought my life would look like and focus on what do I have now, where do I want to go, and how can I use what I have to get there.

      It’s weird feeling so far behind, but I guess there is an advantage in not forcing myself to leave something that’s more comfortable.

  27. NotBatman*

    Is there a polite way to tell a grand-boss “I’d like to be looped in on decisions that affect my work”?

    Some backstory: part of my job involves planning trainings and social events. My dotted-line manager “Hal” is very committed to the Tradition of our org. My grand-boss (different department from Hal) “Ira” is much more committed to move fast and break things, and has been pushing major culture changes since she started 2 years ago. There have been a few occasions where Hal has asked me to plan trainings, and Ira has announced a decision that makes it impossible for my event to occur as planned. The most recent one involved Hal asking me to plan a week-long orientation for a new team — only to have Ira announce that she’s having a mandatory all-hands in the middle of that week, one nearly impossible to plan around, even though she knew about the orientation that week. The time before that, Ira eliminated the soft all-company lunch break — after Hal and I had already planned programming for that break time and invited in two speakers. I feel like I’m the rope in their ideological tug-of-war.

    So: I’d very much like to ask Ira to make me aware when she’s about to make these massive schedule changes, and/or to be one of the people who gets asked for an opinion before these changes occur. At minimum, I’d like to find a way to politely say “you making these sweeping instantly-implemented schedule changes is fucking up my ability to do my job” so that at least I know she’s aware. Anyone have any recommendations?

    1. MsM*

      Honestly, this seems like more of a Hal problem. Either he needs to be advocating for you to get looped in on these decisions, or recognize that Ira is probably going to break stuff and send a message or schedule a call to discuss what you’re thinking and get sign off before you get too far into planning. And even then, if Ira’s the kind of person where the only thing you can count on is that they’re going to change their mind, you may just need to be prepared for that. (If there’s some other senior member of staff who’s capable of saying “Ira, no,” and having that listened to, maybe make friends with that person.)

      1. NotBatman*

        You’re probably right. Ideologically, I kinda agree with Ira — our sales numbers are way down, so we *have to* change if we’re going to survive — but she’s very unpopular in the office because of her tendency to make sweeping changes that affect current workflow without communicating those changes in advance. Hal is beloved and has been here 20+ years, so all the soft power is with him, but it might be worth at least floating to Hal that the traditional week-long welcome for onboarding isn’t feasible right now.

    2. KitCaliKat*

      Have you talked to Hal about this? I’d be interested to hear what they have to say and if they are aware that Ira’s actions are creating issues for you.

    3. RagingADHD*

      “What’s the best way for me to stay on top of your ideas about upcoming events or changes to the schedule? We could eliminate a lot of needless effort or duplicated work if I know what you have in mind before we commit to large events.

      How about I book a standing meeting with you every week (or every other week) so we can plan ahead?”

    4. saskia*

      Why isn’t Hal telling you these things if, presumably, Hal knows about them before they’re implemented?
      If Ira’s telling Hal but Hal is keeping this info from you, Ira’s not “fucking up your ability to do your job;” Hal is.

      1. NotBatman*

        Hal doesn’t know, is the thing. Ira’s senior to Hal, and Ira has tended to implement these changes with an all-company email to the effect of “starting today, all llamas will be groomed from back to front and I’ve already thrown away all the front-to-back combs.” Hal’s often getting hamstrung right along with me by the changes, and in more severe ways.

    5. Hillary*

      I’m sorry if this sounds harsh. That’s not my intention and I’m trying to say this as kindly as possible. You sound pretty frustrated. It’s completely understandable but they’re not doing this at you. Events might be getting caught in a power play, but it isn’t personal.

      If it’s making it impossible to complete other work or if there are real costs to the changes (nonrefundable plane tickets, catering deposits, etc) it’s worth bringing that impact up with Hal and talking about ways to mitigate them. Even then the money may not be relevant, at my last company international travel might be cancelled the day before if needs changed.

      If there isn’t quantifiable cost or if it’s only the effort of replanning, there isn’t a good way for you to express your frustration without looking bad. It’ll come across as emotional and out of touch, part of event planning is replanning as situations change. For Ira this is just Tuesday.

  28. anomnom*

    A hiring manager for a fundraising job I applied for reached out, we chatted online a bit, and then they stated that I was in a final group of five candidates. Instead of traditional interviews, they ask each candidate to fully run, on their own, a fundraising campaign for 30 days and whoever raises the most, wins the position.

    They provide a prospect list; it was ambiguous as to whether any staff assistance was provided. I could not get a clear answer and I’m known in my unit for being able to pin people down in a polite manner. This was for a Director of Philanthropy role listed on LinkedIn and Indeed. No red flags in the job listing.

    This sounds bananacrackers to me and I declined. If I had time to create and run campaigns on the side, I would be doing that for extra cash and to build an eventual consultancy.

    Or am I way off base? Is this a new thing?

    3. MsM*

      This is a multi-course banana tasting menu. Setting aside the obvious issues with not paying for what is clearly a consulting project, they’re comfortable with letting people who they haven’t fully finished vetting yet represent and solicit money on behalf of the organization?
      And the winner is based purely on dollar amounts, not strategic planning or relationship building or any of the skills you’d want to see to know whether someone can grow a program long-term? I’m curious what kind of candidates they’re getting that would say “yes” to this.

      1. anomnom*

        Hahaha, thank you for that description. It was so “off”. Granted, we had chatted but nowhere near enough to where they could’ve known I wouldn’t run their reputation into the ground and/or alienate prospects. They did not check references.

        I honestly wondered if this is something they do constantly just to have a steady supply of monthlong campaigns going and they actually care nothing for donor experience. I asked about retention goals and other metrics, but they said it was dollars raised. 15+ years in philanthropy and I’ve never seen hiring (or measuring although I’ve seen some questionable things) work like this.

        1. Elsewise*

          This is one of those things where my conspiracy theory brain goes into full gear. Like, is it possible that someone making decisions is actively trying to destroy the organization? Because that’s the only way it makes sense.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            Or they’re running a flat-out scam and contracting out to hiring hopefuls to do the actual scamming (unknownst to them!)

      1. anomnom*

        It seemed to be, from googling it. No industry awards or similar that I could find, and their LinkedIn is pretty bare but I’m in the US and this company isn’t, so I chalked it up to different spaces at first.

    6. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      How can you run a fundraising campaign for an organization if you don’t represent that organization? AND for 30 days no less! Sounds like a scam job to me.

    7. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’m a fundraiser. This is completely unacceptable and contrary to the AFP Code of Ethics and Donor Bill of Rights. No professional fundraiser would ever go along with this and you shouldn’t touch it with a 10 foot pole.

    8. Hotdog not dog*

      Seems like they did you a favor by letting you know they’re a bunch of bananas before you had committed to anything.

    9. WantonSeedStitch*

      This is an entire banana suit complete with matching banana tie and handkerchief. I’m in the fundraising sector, and I cannot IMAGINE my organization pulling shenanigans like this.

    10. Jello Stapler*

      So would the people donating money for this “campaign” know its a sham? I won’t not be happy if I donated to something and found out somehow it was part of some cockamamie interviewing thing.

    11. It's too darned hot.*

      I’m glad you declined. This trend of demanding uncompensated work from job candidates needs to go.

    12. RagingADHD*

      Do the people who don’t get hired get to keep the money they raised? Since they don’t work there.

    13. Zzzzzz*

      Bwahahahaha! yeah, no. Run. Or really, just turn and saunter away. No need to waste any time debating this one.

  29. is this a bad idea?*

    On a scale of 1 to 10, how bad of an idea is it to disclose to my boss that I’m planning on getting pregnant soon in order to get more help?

    As a bit of background, I’ve been with my company for over a decade, starting at a low, general rank and working my way up to a specialized and higher rank. I’m still responsible for a lot of the tasks I had at a lower level – tasks that are not specialized, “easy” but time consuming. I’m taking on a lot of tasks that are specialized but things are falling through the cracks because I’m just responsible for too much.

    I want to talk to my boss about hiring someone at a lower rank to take on a lot of my early responsibilities so I can focus on the more challenging stuff. This is a conversation I want to have regardless – while I think he may be receptive, I also think he’ll drag his feet.

    My husband and I are planning on trying for a family soon. To be perfectly honest, I think me leaving on maternity leave would result in a poop show that I would absolutely dread coming back to. I’m already tentatively looking for other opportunities, but if I can get the extra help, I don’t really *want* to leave my current job.

    Would it be a bad idea to mention to my boss that hey – I might be out on leave for a while so let’s get someone in here sooner so I can train them?

    (I’m really not concerned about getting fired or being treated negatively at my place for getting pregnant – I think my company has a pretty good history treating pregnant people well.)

    1. Colette*

      I wouldn’t mention it just because you don’t know what will happen – some people find it hard to get and stay pregnant, and you don’t want to have your boss making decisions based on something that hasn’t happened.

    2. NotRealAnonForThis*

      My own experience shows me that this is on the negative number side of the scale. At one point I was doing approximately three separate job descriptions in bids and pieces. My boss only hired a temp for my maternity leave after our office manager told him that she would not be covering my duties (I am not in administration in any capacity, for the record, I do fairly technical things) and she’d be quitting with no notice if he tried that. And even then – the temp started a whopping 5 business days prior to be going on leave. And I worked until my due date.

      Why do you think that he’s going to drag his feet?
      Why do you think its going to be a fecal matter festival while you’re out?
      Why has he not removed the original responsibilities from your workload while you’ve progressed and have more challenging tasks?

    3. Princess Buttercup*

      So, there tends to be a similar question to this asked in the open forum each week, and the answer (no matter the situation) remains the same: do not disclose that you are planning to get pregnant. A lot of things can happen on that road and you are not guaranteed a viable pregnancy when you plan it (or at all), unfortunately. Another thing about pregnancy is that it’s a 9 month endeavor that you can plan for when it’s an actual thing.

      Pregnancy or no, it’s a good idea to have a succession plan in place – you might leave the position for another, or get hit by a bus tomorrow. Other people need to know how to do your job.

    4. EMP*

      I would avoid bringing up pregnancy for the same reason it wouldn’t be appropriate to bring up as a reason you need a raise – there’s already a business reason for this (free you up for higher level work, provide more coverage for general leaves of absence/vacation) that should be more compelling. And TBH if your boss is going to drag his feet over hiring in general, I don’t think imminent maternity leave would help anyway, because he might see that as a definitely temporary thing that they can just muddle through for 3 months while work piles up for your return.

    5. DisneyChannelThis*

      Don’t bring up being pregnant or soon to be pregnant.
      Bring up “what is George gets hit by a bus” (or wins the lottery and quits if your workplace tone death is avoided). It’s a legitimate concern. Workplace should be actively trying to have redundancies in place.

    6. Loreli*

      Never say the sentence “I’m planning to get pregnant.” What is the person you’re saying this to supposed to think about after hearing that?

      Besides, you have absolutely no idea how long it will take to get pregnant. And if you make that announcement and then it takes some time, you’ll have to endure endless “advice”.

    7. DrSalty*

      Bad. You don’t know how long it will take to get pregnant. It could be years. Once you’re pregnant, then you can start planning for maternity leave.

      Or just push needing back up without an external reason because it’s a sensible business decision (which it is). What happens when you go on vacation?

    9. TeaCoziesRUs*

      Pass the awkward up instead of bringing up family planning. You’re letting specialized tasks fall because so much of your focus is on the mundane. Write that out for your boss specifically – and ask the better if you have numbers or other impact that this drop caused. (BTW, this fall is NOT on you or a reflection of YOU. It’s a reflection of miserable staffing levels and poor oversight.) Something like:
      In the last (week/ month/ quarter), I have had to turn my attention from specialized task #1, 2, 3 in order to get mundane task accomplished. That led to impact X, y, and z for our department / department we are supporting. This is not sustainable in the long term, and if it continues I can see X, y, z fallout. We need to hire a mundane generalist to focus on a, b, c so that I can accurately and efficiently complete specialized tasks d, e, and f.
      Don’t mention pregnancy. If boss questions a sense of urgency, just lay out a worst-case scenario thinking. If there’s a time in your business cycle where this makes sense (like getting books or processes together before an audit / inspection), that would be a great time to bring it up.

      Regardless, whether you have a baby or not, you need the support of a generalist. Figure out the business reasons. why and focus on those. And many blessings and good karma for your path to potential parenthood!

  30. Cherrytree*

    My company just went through a surprise layoff round. My team isn’t affected much – some adjacent teams were laid off but not in our direct area. They aren’t feeling too bad, I don’t think, but I’d love some advice from people here on how to support them over the next few weeks, now the crisis week of shock and updated processes is over. This is the first round of corporate layoffs I’ve ever experienced, let alone as a manager, so I’m a little bit at sea. My own manager has been on holiday for the past two weeks and I have to admit to feeling a tiny bit shaky myself. His manager is helpful but not particularly approachable or much of a people person.

  31. SirBluebird*

    I’m in the final interview stages for an entry-level job with extremely good benefits and training that would allow me to get the licensing I need for a huge career boost that should lead to me doubling my income in the next 3 years. I’ll also be able to work from home 50% of the time during training and then 75% of the time once I’m out of training.

    However, in the short term it’s going to be rough. It’ll be a 15% effective pay cut and when I do need to go into the office, my commute is going to increase from a 20 – 30 minute drive to a 70 – 90 minute drive. My husband and I will be relocating in about a year so that will be way less of an issue, and we will be able to live on what I’m making after the pay cut, but it will definitely give us a lot less spending money! Do any of you have experience with this kind of short term sacrifice for long term career growth? Or with a commute that long? How did you get through it?

    1. long commuter*

      I had a job for 10 years where the commute was 60-90 minutes. It was long. If at all possible shift your hours, reducing that by a bit helps. For me, the friday evening home commute was horrible, so I’d do food shopping and let the traffic die down, it was better at 7 pm than at 5. Otherwise, I listened to a news/talking based radio station (like the american npr, or bbc but for my country). I preferred that to a podcast, because the soundscape was more variable. Plus the usual : look for carpooling/public transit/active transit options. (it took me about as long to bike to my work as it did to drive, so I did that when I could)

      and 15% pay cut for a huge income boost sounds smart!

      1. long commuter*

        The other thing I’d add is : try and be active in the day. Walk at lunch, maybe walk after work to let traffic die down, walk before work if the commute is shorter at 7, but your work hours don’t start till 9. Also: if you are in a place where “large dinner” is standard, consider having half of it, or a large snack before you leave work. Having your lunch at 12 and dinner at 7 is a long break, even with a snack. My life improved immensely once I had protein and veg before leaving work. Also, I did batch cooking on the weekend, to ensure that I didn’t have to cook weeknights. That also helps with the budget.

    2. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      Oh goodness. Yes I’ve done that and it was really draining. The other commenter had good advice. I’d add that you will need to proactively manage your energy – when you get home you’ll be more tired and want to do less, so make sure you’re moving your body enough, drinking enough water, setting conditions for good sleep, eating food that energized you rather than makes you sluggish, offloading all non-essential commitments (essential being things you have to or really want to do, because this is about doing things that you must do (like feed your kids) and that genuinely recharge you (whether that’s binging on Netflix or hiking all weekend).

      I had much less margin to put up with the impacts of a glass of wine which I love but gives me headaches, or the way I’d feel so sore if I didn’t force myself to exercise. I just had so much less room to deal with stuff, so I had to change my mentality from “well I’ll just treat myself to these donuts because they’re yummy and I had a stressful day” to “if I eat these I’ll feel sick tomorrow and I’m already exhausted so I have no room to do that”. Kind of like spoon theory.

    3. DannyG*

      Two areas to consider: outflow & income. Look hard at subscriptions. Are you 5 books behind on audible? Terminate. Do you have 3-4 streaming services? Edit to 1-2. And so on. Can you or your spouse pick up some extra work? Run a register at the local supermarket once a week? Work a couple hours every evening with a friend’s lawn mowing service? Working both ends together helps and keep in mind that this is temporary, on the way to a goal.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      Commuting advice: I have had a 60-90 min commute before (60 min to work, 90 min to home). Mine was public transit, not driving, so not all of my advice is applicable. I read a book on the way in, so radio, podcasts, and audiobooks are all good driving alternatives. Like long commuter, I looked for ways to make my commute better. When the weather was nice, I would walk for part of the way instead on piling on to a crowded train in the afternoon. The driving equivalent may be looking at alternate routes that have less traffic, or easier left turns, etc. One thing I’ve noticed about myself is that driving 20-30 mph on a crowded highway feels much more frustrating than driving 20-30 mph on city streets because I feel like I should be driving faster when I’m on the highway.

      Another thing: if possible, run errands on your way home from work. It will break up the drive a little bit and potentially give traffic some time to clear up. For me, when my days were 8 hours of working plus 2.5 hours of commuting, I had no desire to leave my house after work. It was much easier to run into a store while I was on my commute because I was already up and about.

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I did the “long commute but with a known end date.” Some things that I did:

      1) Audio books from the library. Borrow more than one at a time, in case you don’t like the narrator.
      2) At lunch, go for walks to explore the area. I was lucky and worked near a park. That assumes the job is at a walkable area that’s worth exploring. Being outside in fresh air helps.

      I didn’t do this, but a paper calendar to mark off with planned celebrations during the countdown could be nice. Like, Week 1 complete, beach trip. Week 2 complete, ice cream subdae night. Week 3 complete, all day weekend hike. Breaks up the stretch of extra commute to smaller milestones.

  32. Alexis Carrington Colby*

    Does anyone do “stand ups” at their jobs with their teams?

    I’ve been at a new role for a 1 month, and we do stand-ups every morning. It’s with my boss and my immediate coworker (who also reports to my boss), then a handful of people who don’t report to my boss but are in the same part of the org (not quite department), so about 8-9 people total. I’m starting to find it annoying lol. I feel like everyday is overkill, I think it would be better maybe 1x or 2x a week. I don’t even listen when other people speak, and I doubt they listen for me. I’m pretty much just prepping for my turn to speak, and it’s all on video call and we’re all on a grid. I’ve also noticed when someone has an appointment, they’ll say they have a doctor/dentist/hair appointment, and they’ll talk about which other meetings they have for that day. I don’t want to share with everyone when I go to the doctor lol

    I get that it helps with team bonding and accountability. But about half of them on the call work out of the main office, and me, and a few others are fully remote, it just feels like a lot to do everyday. And our immediate team has a task management system so we’re all tracking what we’re working on, and every Monday my boss, immediate coworker and I talk through what we’re working on this week.

    And during the stand-ups, usually every Friday, everyone goes around and talks about what they are doing (what you doing Alexis? how about you Dominique, what do you have on tap for this weekend?), and then the same process every Monday on what we did that weekend. And then everytime I have a separate meeting with my boss, he’ll always ask what I did the prior night or what I have planned for this night. It’s a lot and I don’t want to talk about my personal life with coworkers.

    I don’t think it’s micromanaging or lack of trust, but was curious if others deal with something similar

    1. Nicki Name*

      A daily standup is part of agile programming. Every development team should have a quick daily meeting where everyone says:

      * What major thing(s) they did yesterday
      * What they’re working on today
      * What’s in the way of their current task, if anything

      If your company or team isn’t doing software development, then I won’t try to guess why it decided to borrow the practice.

      1. Alexis Carrington Colby*

        Not software, more marketing and design/creative. Besides my boss and immediate coworker, I don’t work with the rest at all.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          It sounds like they’re doing standups wrong, not solely because not software, but they’re basically having a daily check-in and talking about whatever and calling it a standup.
          Like for example, some people on my team in a stand up might mention they have an appointment, but they don’t go into detail, and the point of bringing it up is “and thus I will have fewer hours in the day today to work on ThingI’mWorkingOn. It’s not just a share fest. It has purpose. And unless y’all work on the weekend, what you did on the weekend is superfluous. Like, if it were chitchat while waiting for folks to come in…like small talkers gonna small talk, but if this is a standard part of the meeting going round to EVERYONE about weekend plans, that’s just weird.

    2. Burned Out*

      Some time ago I was in a team where we also made the daily standup ritual. If people stick to “what have I done”, “what I’m doing today” and “do I need help/am I stuck” then it can be useful to find out as soon as possible where the problems are. It is a good moment to ask for help (but not getting help. Do it later!).

      Hovewer, in my experience it’s only useful if people are concise. If people derail or go too much into detail, then you have a situation like you have described.

      1. Alexis Carrington Colby*

        Yeah, several years ago I was on a team where we did stand-ups 2x/week and they were helpful because people would talk about the main priorities (instead of every little thing) and any roadblocks or questions. This is more like this is exactly what my day is: working on X, meeting with Blake, then working on Y, meeting with Fallon, dentist

    3. No Tribble At All*

      Ugh, we have one as well, and we’re a superteam composed of three different sub-teams, so for 2/3 of the tag-up, it’s people talking about things I literally don’t know what they are. The whole meeting goes on for 15-20 minutes every damn morning at 9am. It’s so unnecessary!

      Also, a tagup should not include chitchatting about the weekend. It’s originally called a stand-up because it’s supposed to be so short you can just stand around for 5 minutes. My sympathies!!

    4. Friday Me*

      We were able to convince a former boss to move from daily to *only* three times a week.

      As for the weekend stuff, I’m a big fan of – boring life, just playing with my cat and reading. Soon they won’t bother asking :)

    5. Colette*

      In my last job, I ran standups. It sounds like yours aren’t well run – they shouldn’t be generally used for social time. But having them every day is crucial, because they should be used to find out quickly when something is falling behind or hitting roadblocks.

    6. Anonymask*

      This is one of my biggest complaints about my job. One hour. Every day. Such a waste.

      1. Certified Scrum Master*

        an hour? A daily standup is supposed to take fifteen minutes or less. The point of standing up to do it is to help keep it short.

        1. Anonymask*

          They’re scheduled to be 30 minutes. But the manager is… Not good at keeping things on time. So 95% of the time, we go over (I was being uncharitable by saying *every day*, since the days the manager is out we don’t have them).

          We also meet over Zoom since we have one remote team member, and the manager has stated that the hourly people driving in need to be on the call as well (despite the meeting happening an hour before their stated start time). So I’m sure that doesn’t help the situation…

          1. Alexis Carrington Colby*

            Oof, that’s rough. I’m sorry.

            Our’s are scheduled for 15 minutes. Some people don’t sign on until a few minutes into the meeting, which bypasses the small talk. I’m still new, but I might starting signing in a minute late or so

    7. I Have RBF*

      Daily standups are part of “Scum™”, an “Agile” framework that’s supposed to make everything go smoothly, make engineers empower, and help unicorns pump glitter out of their butts. They seldom are worth the time involved.

      I’ve been working with agile scrum crap off an on for over ten years. Unless it’s a greenfield software project, it is like pasting a smiley face mask over a assault victim and calling him cured. It is a waste of time, and usually devolves into waterfall style mini-deathmarches every two weeks.

      No, I don’t like Scrum. It’s a horrible way to run anything but a narrow niche of software development. It certainly is not a way to run anything that is interrupt driven or operations style work. It is often cargo-culted by clueless management to make their process seem modern, or because some consultant told them that all the cool companies were doing it.

      It actually lends itself very easily to micromanagement, but calls itself “developer empowerment”, and it is not empowering at all, IMO.

      And the personal stuff? I would shut that down hard, either by going TMI, just saying nothing, or saying “my life outside work is not the subject of this meeting.”

      Also, start looking for a new job. This intrusive garbage is a buzzing hornet’s nest.

    8. Been There Done That*

      I had a job once where we did 15 minute stand ups every afternoon, just for the C Suite level. Sometimes it ended up being longer than 15 minutes, but we each brought to the table something we were working on/accomplished, an issue we faced and our focus for the next few days. As the newest person in the company, I found it immensely helpful learning about the different departments and how they conducted their business. It also gave them insight as to how I, as a new department head, structured my department and conducted my area. We did this only until COVD struck and we all went remote, then we had to change our meeting schedule.

  33. Indisch blau*

    Dealing with inappropriate questions and the like: Does anyone have a strategy for learning to give non-answer or answer a question with another question and in general to think on one’s feet?
    When I’m asked an inappropriate question or a question I don’t want to answer, I tend to answer it anyway. Witty comebacks don’t occur to me until days later. Unfortunately, I also don’t think of answering with question (Why do you want to know? and the like).
    Has anyone learned or trained themself to actually skip a beat and deliver the polite non-answer?
    Thanks!

    1. Nicki Name*

      What sort of inappropriate are they? Inappropriate for work, or something the questioner should have known you wouldn’t have the answer for?

      1. Indisch blau*

        This happens to me both in work contexts and private. At work I was once asked by a client why another vendor had the policy it did. I didn’t know, of course. But instead of just repeating, “I’m sorry, I don’t know,” I speculated.
        A non-work context is that a friend of my parents’ asked me where my spouse and I go to church. I told her we went to different churches (and which ones, although that information didn’t tell her anything). And she asked how that worked for us. I don’t mind answering the question which church(es) we go to. The follow up deserved a “Why do you ask?”. I need to learn how to take the second before plunging in with an answer in order to deliver the deflection.

        1. Double A*

          These questions don’t sound inappropriate. In the first case, it’s one you don’t know the answer to. In the second case, it’s small talk you’re not interested in engaging with.

          It sounds like maybe you need to get more comfortable with saying “I don’t know.” Or in the latter case, have some phrases ready to disengage. “Fine” is a small talk response that works well. “How does that work?” “Just fine!”

          You can also practice pivoting to a question to change the subject.

    2. Princess Buttercup*

      You could always go with Geena Davis’s response “Whoops! That was inappropriate!” in a cheery voice.

    3. Burned Out*

      What worked somewhat for me before is to choose a few general of sentences that can be used for this kind of situations, like “I don’t want to answer that”, and practice to say it calmly at home until you can say it fluently.

      It will feel odd at the beginning, but it helps you get better.

    4. Rick Tq*

      Anyone who has worked with sensitive information has been trained to give non-answers to those kinds of questions in a way that makes it clear the topic is something you will not and can not discuss.

      The boilerplate I learned starts “I can neither confirm nor deny the presence or absence of X”.

      A more polite version might be “I’m surprised you asked that, I really can’t discuss X” leaving the details why to the listener.

    5. anywhere but here*

      Why do you ask?
      (As a response. Not a question for you haha)

      Gives you a bit of time to think and sometimes can help redirect if you can address the reason they’re asking without answering the question.

    6. NaoNao*

      “Why do you ask?” in a Barbara Walters almost-concerned voice. or a brisk “Oh, pass!” with a big smile and a topic change. You can also do the “no thank you!” or “no thanks!” as if you’re declining a delicious looking but too-high-calorie treat or something similar. It creates just enough confusion for a disappear in a cloud of smoke effect.

      1. Indisch blau*

        My question is more: How can I learn to take the time to ask, “Why do you ask?” I jump in with an earnest and honest answer before I realize I don’t really want to answer. (People pleaser? Honesty is the best policy?)

        1. Hlao-roo*

          Can you get into the habit of responding with “good question” before jumping into answer? Either for all questions, or for questions asked by people you know are frequent offenders of asking inappropriate questions. The “good question” (and perhaps a small pause or “hmm”) will become automatic, so you can use those few seconds to internally check “do I want to answer this question?” If you do, you can transition from “good question”/pause/”hmm” to the answer, and if you don’t, you can instead go into “why do you ask?” or “no thanks!” or any of the other suggestions above.

        2. NotBatman*

          I’ll paraphrase back any question I’m not sure I heard, or just hope that I misheard.

          Rude customer: How old are you?
          Me: To clarify, you want to know how old I am?
          Rude customer: Yes.
          Me: Sorry, that’s private, but can I get you anything else while you’re here?

          Often it gives me time to remember that no, I do not have to tell people personal information. I’m also a fast talker, so I’ll often launch into an entire paragraph about an unrelated subject as a way of getting the conversation away from whatever I was just asked.

        3. Tio*

          Honestly, I have actually practiced responses. In the shower, with a partner, with a friend. Sometimes you can build that sort of “muscle memory” in this way.

        4. TeaCoziesRUs*

          Silly answer – breathe.

          When someone asks you something, focus on your breath. Is your breath going in or out? That will give you a small pause to encourage your TMI self to stop and think. I had a teacher who said, “Come back to yourself,” which has stuck with me. I bring my attention back in for a quick gut check, which helps me answer in a more authentic way. The authentic way can be “reason x,y,z” or “myob” or any variation in between, but that breath allows me to pause and not spew.

    7. Not the Answer Man anymore*

      I have the same impulse but after getting embarrassed enough times by inappropriate answers I’ve learned “I don’t know” is the best answer when that is true.

      I’ve moved from needing to prove my value by ALWAYS having the answers to the confidence to say I don’t know.

      1. Anon for This*

        You prove your value more by admitting that you don’t know than by giving out wrong information. If appropriate (like if your boss asks for needed info) you can say you’ll find out.

    8. ferrina*

      “Hey look, a distraction!”

      Try the vague….”huh”.
      Or the time buying…”oh shoot, I just thought of something. I need to send an email. Excuse me.”

      Pick a response that feels the most comfortable (dont’ worry about witty) and practice it until it’s part of your muscle memory. Picture someone asking you an inappropriate question and give your response. Practice your response on your morning commute or other places. Practice until you get sick of it.
      Same thing as athletes do- you practice the move until you do it in your sleep, so you can do it in the clutch moment under pressure.

    9. Jessi*

      I legit started a business to help people with this! Somethings are just harder for some people to say! Practice can really help as well as having your reply ‘fixed’ in your head. I’ll include a link below in case you feel like it could be useful for you

  34. Cruciatus*

    Man, even when you like where you work, the two weeks’ notice period before you leave for a new job is the worst. I’m really glad people like me, and I really like them too, but it’s like I’m dying and not just working 7 miles away. My supervisor is also trying to out-plan me leaving. She’s trying to cover for scenarios that I never encountered in all of my time here and it’s just A. Lot. And I still have 4 days in next week!

    All that said, I’m still in sort of denial because not much has changed yet, besides people finding out I’m leaving, but my day-to-day otherwise is the same. But everyone gets why I’m going (we aren’t paid enough, and they don’t make it easy to get more money whether through annual review/GSI, job title/duty switches, etc.)

    So weird to love a place but have to leave it for more opportunities!

    1. I'm that box at Mar-a-Lago*

      “but it’s like I’m dying and not just working 7 miles away. My supervisor is also trying to out-plan me leaving. She’s trying to cover for scenarios that I never encountered in all of my time here.”

      As someone who lost 3.5 team members in March and May leaving only 2 of us behind to pick up all the work (going into a $5m fundraising season with no boss or two other staff members), it was a team I really adored and worked well with, it’s like a death. We’re all saying, “We’re so happy you’re going to a great place’ while inside (no apologies) we’re pissed and trying to hold on to a semblance of sanity to cover for all your tasks before you’re backfilled or better yet, they change the structure, and we have to adapt to a new system and new staff member.

      I’m glad your boss is trying to out-plan because did you plan for your departure? Is there a transition plan of all your work, tasks, contacts, follow-ups, and future work?

      “it’s just A. Lot. And I still have 4 days in next week!” I can’t empathize with you, and I can’t support your feelings. We’re all trying to figure out how to do your work, cover your responsibilities. Turn your sympathy to them instead. How can you make it better for them?

      1. Cruciatus*

        Yeesh! I work in a library, nothing is life or death. We have staff who are trained in the basics of my duties so everything will keep moving until they can hire someone new. Everything is going to be fine, but…thanks, I guess.

        1. What's in the Booooox*

          From another librarian, I’ll send some empathy and support your way! I’ve left several librarian jobs for other opportunities in my career, and every time I turn in the notice and then kinda…. sit. I find a lot of of library tasks are either immediate (like, literally finish this hours) or verrrry long term (like, predate your career and will go many years more) so the 2 weeks are a weird combination of literally nothing changing in the immediate tasks and just not being involved in longer conversations because they’re going to continue without you. There’s not much to “wrap up.” It is a surreal feeling!

      2. Never Knew I Was a Dancer*

        I’m That Box At Mar-a-Lago, it sounds like you’re having a rough time at work…but Cruciatus isn’t leaving their job at you.

        1. Parakeet*

          Not to mention an astonishingly nonsensical one. How many posts have there been on this site over the years where Alison emphasizes, correctly, that employees leaving is a normal part of work life?

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I left a job that I liked for a different opportunity, and it was a little weird! I knew leaving was the right thing for me, but I was also really sad to leave my coworkers. We worked together well and I learned a lot from them. I was sadder than I thought I was going to be during my notice period, and that was a bit surprising to me. I will say, once I left I was so busy with my new job that the feelings of sadness and weirdness evaporated, so there’s light at the end of this tunnel!

      1. Cruciatus*

        That is exactly what I’m hoping for! That’s what I was telling some people–they’d ask “are you excited, are you excited?” and I was like…I think I will be but right now I’m still in my current position and nothing has changed (except preparing for me to leave) so I’m still too close to this job to be excited yet. I’m not excited to be the new person again! But I was the new person here too once and ended up loving it so I’m trying to remember that as well–the newness will eventually fade.

    3. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      I think part of it is because in most workplaces, the odds are that you probably won’t see that person again. Or at least not often–I have loved several of the places where I worked, but have only returned to one of them for anything, and it was 6 years after I’d left, for a couple of hours (my spouse attended a conference in the same building, so I came a bit early to pick him up so I could have a little nostalgia walk-through). Even if you drive or walk by it semi-regularly, there’s just rarely a reason to return to most places.

      And you may very well have people who are genuinely happy for you, but also a bit jealous that you’re moving on to something better. I got a lot of that when I left my second-to-last job.

  35. Nicki Name*

    Anyone else watching Zom 100 and feeling resonance with the protagonist when he realizes the zombie apocalypse is better than having to keep going to his horrible, toxic job?

    I’ve got a much better job these days, but there have been a couple of horrible, toxic jobs in my past where I stuck around way too long, and… boy did I feel that moment.

    (For those who have no idea what I’m talking about: the full title is Zom 100: Bucket List of the Dead, it’s about a guy trying to live his dreams after the zombie apocalypse frees him from that job, and it’s on Hulu and Netflix.)

    1. anomnom*

      I haven’t seen it but will be watching it this weekend. I desperately need this type of escapism while I figure out whether/when to leave. Love my team, job and work but pay is subpar, benefits keep getting eroded and remote work is a constant battle.

    2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      I wouldn’t be that hyped but it would be much cooler to live in the apocalypse where you don’t have to go to work than today where it’s the end of days but you also have to do your job

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      Is it a comedy? I love me a good zomedy. In my horribly toxic old job years ago, I used to fantasize about the subway crashing or aliens attacking downtown while I was on the way to work. I remember one time I got a call on the way to work saying that there had been a flood and none of the computers were working, and my heart started to leap with joy, but then the person calling told me that “it’s going to be all hands on deck cleaning up for a couple days” and it sank again.

  36. lurkyloo*

    More a little whine about my situation than anything.
    I’ve recently returned to a role that I loved very much after being away for a year. While I was away, they went from portfolio based to team based work. Think of it as: When I left, I took care of 5 llamas and backed up someone and their 5 llamas if they were away. On my return, I find out they’ve gone to a team based approach where the team of 3 cares for 20 llamas, but really, we have 6-7 llamas each and keep each other in the loop if we need to. Or that’s MY team.
    Other teams are actively discussing the whole herd of llamas daily, travel together to visit their llamas and generally operate as a whole.
    I have a chat with the manager who praises the other teams and suggests that I should get my team to be more like that. I talk to my team about ‘hey, can we at least meet weekly’? Only to find out that management left it to each team to determine the right approach and I’m on the team where everyone does their own thing (like it was when I left). But apparently, we’re the team that management says isn’t doing it ‘as I envisioned’.
    Sooooo….direct us to do so? I’m good either way, but feel a bit tossed under the bus by the manager not wanting to step up and tell the team how to do it, but asking me to instead.
    Sigh.

    1. Warrior Princess Xena*

      Yeah, you’re right, this should be your manager’s problem rather than yours. They can’t leave it to each team to determine the right approach and then be surprised when the team does something that isn’t exactly what they envisioned. If they’re supposed to be working more collaboratively, then your manager needs to manage. You’re the newest person on the team, even if you are a returning employee, and you don’t have lead or supervisory roles. I wouldn’t want to burn my capital on doing something that my manager should be doing anyways either.

    2. Qwerty*

      Clarify with your boss on what authority you have.

      If you are a team lead or a similar type or role, then you should have the authority to just go ahead and schedule a weekly meeting.

      If you are just a regular team member and not seen as a form of defacto leader, then talk to your boss about you don’t feel you have the authority to implement the changes she is asking for. Does she want you to act as more a lead? Do you have the option of borrowing your boss’s authority to say “Jane asked me to run a weekly team meeting” ?

      It’s possible you and your boss may not be one the same page about what your role is. Or your boss could have failed at getting the team to do the new approach and is hoping they’ll listen to you instead. I can’t tell from the post whether there is a 1:1 ratio of manager to team or if your manager sits over multiple teams. If its the former she needs to step up. If its the latter, then it is normal to deputize someone to handle the day to day stuff.

  37. phrasing, after lay-off*

    I got laid off in the spring. When I was employed, I used to write in my cover letter: “in my current job, I am the person most called upon to shave zebras”.
    How should I word this: “in my last job I was the person most called upon to shave zebras”? That feels weird to me.

    For context, the job I got laid off from I’d had for 15 years, and before then was a series of 2-year appointments. (post-docs)

    1. Meg*

      I think its fine wording. You could phrase it more like “in previous positions I have been the most called upon…” as well.

    3. Cookies for Breakfast*

      I’d go for something like “In my [Job Title] role at [Company Name], I was the person most called upon to shave zebras”. Then on to more details of what you enjoyed / learned / achieved / were great at.

      Or, if your length of service is likely to be an impressive factor, something like “Throughout my 15 years at [Company Name], I was the person most called upon to shave zebras”.

      That also has the advantage of giving the reader context if they see your cover letter before your CV. Perhaps the company name is one they recognise, or they get a sense for what industry you worked in, or they can see that the job title is a close match to what they’re advertising for. I’ve used similar wording even while employed, for this reason.

      All the best on your job search!

    4. Hlao-roo*

      Instead of “in my last job,” I would probably go with “at [company name], I was the person most called upon to shave zebras” or “as a [job title] at [company name], I was…”

  38. Burned Out*

    Some time ago I was in an IT project, alone, where I had only about 1/3 of the information about what was needed to do.

    While I did my best to keep going and to bring the project forwards while wearing more hats than I can handle, I ended burning out. A manager in my company, who has no relationship to the project, has seen me at my worst, and assumed that I must be immature for my years in the industry. Unfortunately he has been telling people, and he is belived despite me having had only good reviews prior to that project. It got to the point where each time someone would ask me something, my answer would be ignored because “you don’t know anything anyway”.

    I plan to get out as soon as possble from this company (also because of other things). I am on sick leave right now, but I wonder how can I best survive the time between getting back to work and leaving?

    1. NotBatman*

      A suggestion someone made for a different commenter trying to get through a notice period: pretend you’re an actor playing a role of IT Project Manager in Bullshit Job. Sure, you’re moving through this bizarre situation where your boss is a jerk and nobody recognizes your work, but it’s not really happening to you. It can help with playing along with shitty norms, without internalizing those norms too much.

  39. JMR*

    I have placed several online orders in the past few weeks that have had to be returned. To save me a trip to the UPS store, I’ve been taking the packages to work to return them. I bring the item (all packed up and with the pre-paid shipping label) to the person on our Facilities team who handles package deliveries and shipments, and ask them to hand it off to the UPS driver. I was wondering what might be an appropriate gift for the Facilities team member that has been handling these packages for me? I don’t know him well and would have no idea what would be appropriate. Or is a hearty “thanks” all that is required? The driver stops by every day and there are almost always outgoing packages, so he just adds it to the pile, but I’m still grateful because it’s a personal favor. I should also mention that lots of people send packages from work because it’s so convenient (or have packages shipped to work, so that it won’t sit on their doorstep all day and possibly get stolen), but I’ve been doing it a lot lately. I’d like to thank him without being weird about it!

    1. Somehow_I_Manage*

      The right move here, and you’ll have a friend in your corner for life! This situation calls for delicious baked goods.

    3. Samwise*

      Gift card to an appropriate food place or shop selling things you know they will like.

  40. Cookies for Breakfast*

    A question for UK readers about workplace pensions.

    I worked at my previous employer several years, and my pension got paid into Provider A. My current employer pays into Provider B, and I’ve been there just over a year.

    The money from OldJob’s pension is still with Provider A, and I found out from the statements they send me that they take out an annual service charge. So I’m essentially losing money, since that sum is never going to grow (unless, I assume a future employer also uses provider A). I’ve been wondering whether transferring that money to Provider B would make more sense. But then again, who knows how long I’ll be staying here and what provider my future employer(s) will use – I’m very far from pension age!

    If you’ve transferred pension providers yourself, what was the process like, and what are the trade-offs?

    Is there anything to the third-party apps I’ve seen advertised that allow merging pensions in one place (I’m thinking PensionBee, Nutmeg, and similar)?

    Or, is there a free source of financial advice you’d recommend that could help with this topic?

    1. Ivana Tinkle*

      I’m in the UK and work in financial planning. A good place to start would be http://www.moneyhelper.org.uk which is a free government backed advice service. It’s often the case that old employer pensions charge you when you’ve left the scheme. Most UK personal pension providers don’t charge you for transferring your pension. In your situation, if you’re happy with the pension scheme you’re in with your current employer, and can see yourself staying with your company for a while, I’d see if you can transfer your other pension into this one so it’s all in one place. Otherwise, somewhere like Pension Bee would be a good shout – they’ve got a reputation for being lower cost & easy to transfer to & their charges & investment choices etc are supposed to be easy to understand. Think it also depends on the value of your pensions – if they’re worth a lot or have any guarantees attached, it’s worth paying for a financial adviser to take a look.

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Is that annual charge a percentage of the amount in the pension rather than a flat fee? (typically it is) – in which case the principle is that the investment will (should) grow at a rate that exceeds the fee. Of course that is dependent on what funds/approach it’s invested in and stock market etc performance year to year. Generally if a future employer used Provider A you would have 2 pots with A, rather than them continuing with the original one.

      I have transferred pensions and it was fairly easy. Generally the process is that you choose the new provider (could be your current employer scheme or another one), give the details of the pension you want to transfer into it and the approximate value. The old provider will then send some paperwork out for you to return confirming you agree to the transfer. The whole process took a few weeks as I recall.

      Some good sources of information are the Money Saving Expert website and the UK Personal Finance community on reddit.

    3. OxfordBlue*

      Seconding MoneySavingExpert both the website and the forum which has boards devoted to this subject. It’s definitely worth your becoming au fait with this subject because unless you stay where you are until retirement the same thing will happen again.

  41. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

    A few months ago, I asked for advice on getting my underpaid star performer a big raise. I was asked to come back and give an update on how that went.

    Well, there’s good news and bad news.

    Background: my star performer could go on the market and almost double their salary. They started entry-level and have worked their way up to senior (this is tech). Even making 50% more than when they started thanks to annual raises and a promotions hasn’t brought them close to market value.

    Since I knew our budget wasn’t going to allow a 90-100% raise, I was planning to try to negotiate a 50% raise for them.

    Bad news: Right as annual comp review was supposed to happen a couple weeks ago, we got an announcement from our company that raises were being delayed 6 months. So nobody’s getting a raise.

    My boss and I agreed to keep raising our star performer as an exceptional case who deserved an out-of-cycle raise before they get poached by someone willing to pay them what they’re worth. (They have niche, recession-proof tech skills and would be difficult to replace at any salary, and impossible to replace at their junior-level salary.)

    We got very pessimistic messages from upper managment that nothing was going to happen for at least a month or two, as the company was busy trying to come up with money just to make up for this year’s shortfall, never mind extra salary money, and if this person left, that would be seen as one less person we’d have to lay off, not someone we’d replace.

    Good news: After underpromising, our C-level overdelivered and surprised us with a 25% raise for this person earlier this week.

    Now, normally, I would push for the 50%, which would itself still be below market value…but considering the circumstances, I’m going to take 25% as a win for now (and it took most of my boss’s political capital to get that much). Hopefully we’ve bought ourselves some time until the next merit cycle in 6 months, at which point I’m going to try to bring the number up to the original 50% I was going to aim for.

    1. Somehow_I_Manage*

      You’re an awesome boss!

      Any chance the C-level would be more receptive to promoting your star? That’s always been the way around off-cycle raises- if we can move them to a completely new title/position, we can re-set the pay scale and employment description to match.

      1. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

        I’ve definitely been keeping the promotion idea in my back pocket. The problem with pushing for it now is that I genuinely believe we will not pay a senior-level salary for a senior-level position (and would not backfill a senior position at a senior salary either). Since it is in fact easier to get a big raise with a promotion, I’ve been trying to hold off on the senior title until we can give them senior pay to go with it. Otherwise, they have a senior title and mid-level pay, and then…trying to convince the company to get them up to senior pay without a title change is probably going to be harder than trying to get them to a senior pay with a change to a senior title.

        For now, they have a mid-level title and I’m trying to get them mid-level pay (right now–or at least in a month, after the 25% raise takes effect–they have low mid-level pay), and I’m going to push to get them high mid-level pay as a high-performing mid-level employee, as long as I think there’s no chance they’re getting senior level pay.

        Once I think they can get senior-level pay, then I’m planning on going for the promotion angle: “This person is doing senior level work, this is what a senior role pays, we should give them the pay that goes with the title.”

        The other good news is that the more money we can get them now, the more of an effect a smaller % raise has for them (10% of a higher number is more money than 10% of a lower raise), and the smaller the % I have to ask for. If I say, “This person is senior and needs a 90% raise,” I’m going to get laughed at. If I instead get two 20-25% raises in their current role, and then after a year can say, “This person was mid-level and is being paid mid-level, but is now senior and needs a 20% raise to be paid senior,” then I might be able to get that.

        If I thought I could get a senior salary with a promotion, I would absolutely have gone for it by now, and as soon as I think I’ve got a shot, I will. I just don’t want to set a precedent for paying a senior person a mid-level salary.

        I’ve also made sure this person is aware of how much they could make on the open market (I had them gather market value data), what my negotiation strategies and their salary prospects are here, and that we would of course be sad to lose them and they would be difficult to replace, but that they are not responsible for our difficulties after they leave. I’ve said that if they did leave, I would not hold it against them if they gave notice without letting me know they’d been looking, nor would I hold it against them if I knew they were looking and they asked for a reference from me (which I’ve said would be stellar). We’ve also talked about the benefits of working here, and they’ve said their morale is good and they’re willing to pay a certain sanity tax for the good bosses, coworkers, and work-life balance here. So my hope is that we can keep them on a low mid-level salary for 6 months and then get them a high mid-level salary (senior is a stretch goal), and then it won’t be absolutely absurd for them to stay at this company when they could make 25% more elsewhere (but with unknown bosses, coworkers, and workloads), as opposed to it being absurd to walk away from 90% more salary because the grass *might* not be greener on the other side.

        The thing I’m trying to avoid doing is coming across as trying to sell them on “You should stay here and be underpaid because the company culture is so great!” but instead present it as, “There are benefits to a nearly results-only work environment. I can’t tell you how much to value them vis-a-vis money, but is true that another company might insist on a more consistent 8-hour day, 40-hour week than we do (either because they have a more butts-in-seats mentality or because they have a much higher workload), and you seem to really take advantage of the flexibility here. I am trying to get you paid within the ballpark of what you could make elsewhere, but I may not be able to, and I will support whatever you decide. You’re the only one who can make that decision for yourself.”

        1. Random Academic Cog*

          Thank you for the updates! I was just thinking about that conversation recently and wondering how the quest to get your employee more money went!

    2. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

      In other news, an update on advice I asked for training my manager to, you know, manage. He was promoted for being the best engineer without training, and so was his boss, and neither of them had the foggiest clue that management is more than “attend meetings” and “tell people what to do.”

      I took over a project that had been stalled for 1.5 years and got it unblocked and moving along by managing the engineer who was supposed to work it. The engineer is doing a great job (because he has engineering skills, just not management skills), and that bought me a lot of credibility for my claim that “If a manager manages, they can get work out of reports who can’t self-manage, which is a lot cheaper than replacing them and then hoping their replacements don’t also need management.”

      With that credibility, I was able to move to a setup where I’m doing all the 1:1s and project management for my team, and I’m coaching my boss on how to manage. My boss is enthusiastic about the new organized approach to project management (“It’s working so much better than what I was doing before! The projects are moving faster *and* I’m in the loop about what’s going on!”) and the engineers are like “This status doc is so helpful!” and “Working on this project and seeing the results is like eating one piece of candy after another!”

      My boss’s and my hope is that after a few months to a year of this, one, we’ll have knocked out so much more work that the results will be visible to upper management, like at the quarterly business review. And two, he’ll have learned more about how to manage (he’s actually said this, this isn’t just my pie-in-the-sky dream).

      He’s coming along! Just six weeks ago, he was telling me, “Well, if people can’t self-manage, they’re not going to be able to work with me, so this team might not be right for them,” as he was thinking of firing an engineer who can’t self-manage. (That’s when I had to take over managing.) Last week, his boss was like, “Well, if you say your engineers don’t ask enough questions and just wait for you to tell them what to do [this is a high-paid job that requires a lot of autonomy], should they be working here? Can’t we just fire them?” and my boss hard no-ed that and said, “We’re managers, we have to learn to manage.”

      Look, he’s learning!

      He also went from “No, that would be silly” in response to an engineer’s question about whether we could change something to “This is my first thought, but I want to hear your input: I think we should do X, then Y, but what do you think?” from Monday to Thursday of last week, after I had a chat with him about not using language that shuts down your employees’ ideas and then complaining that they’re not autonomous enough.

      If you’re wondering if my boss is doing anything at all now that I’m doing the 1:1s and project management and leading all the meetings for our team: he’s meeting with the managers in other departments, the VP of another department, the director of our department, the SVP and C-level who run our department, 3rd party vendors, and basically everything that isn’t our team. I’m effectively a line manager meeting and managing our reports, and he’s a middle manager meeting with everyone else. And these are all things I very very much don’t want to do and am happy for him to get paid to do and to technically outrank me to do (esp. meeting with the director of our department; he’s the worst boss I’ve ever had, and if I have to meet with him, I will start searching immediately).

      My boss is very receptive to new ideas, like “what a manager’s job is” and “managers need training”, in a way that most people aren’t, and even if this is obviously not an ideal situation, I’m happy to continue doing it and watching him grow. And taking over more responsibilities is a huge growth opportunity for me as well–there’s a lot of stuff I’ve never done that I’m having to figure out and make up as I go along, and it’s very challenging and rewarding.

      1. Tio*

        Sounds like you’re effectively acting as a supervisor while he’s a manager – which is not unusual! But perhaps you could get a raise/promotion out of it, at some point (though it sounds like a bit of a mess right now, based on the raise item you advised)

        1. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

          I was planning to ask for a bonus for working crazy hours and doing work above my pay grade, and then wait a year and see if I want to do this long term and if I do, ask for a promotion and raise next time… but then, yeah, the news broke that we’re not even getting COL raises until 2024. So yeah. We’ll see what the future brings. I’m highly paid already, so I’d rather spend my capital on my underpaid star performer for now.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      If they are niche and difficult to replace, you need to be looking at contingency and succession plans. What if rather than being “poached” by another employer they were in an accident etc, what would you do? Now start applying that. Your argument that they are irreplaceable etc is likely to be met by management with “why have you allowed a single point of failure to develop” and management would be right.

      1. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

        If they were hit by a bus, we have adequate contingency plans that would tide us over through a hiring period/FMLA/whatever. However, if we wanted the same results as we’ve been getting from this person *long-term*, we would have to hire a replacement at a much higher salary than we’re currently paying them.

  42. Lunch Meat*

    I quit my job in June and I’m so happy at my new place. It feels tailor made for me. I made the mistake of agreeing to work remotely for a few hours a week at the old job until they found someone else and my boss thought that would work long-term and decided not to try to hire a replacement. I finally convinced her I won’t be available past Monday because of my new job but she’s not planning to tell staff what’s happening, just that I won’t be available for questions on the things I was helping with because I’m working on something else or something? I don’t know. I want to tell at least one of my coworkers but I don’t know if that’s because it will help her do her job easier or I just want to feel better about leaving. I don’t want to cause conflict as I’m going.

    1. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      I honestly don’t think it’s a big deal! It’s fine to tell your coworker. Don’t make it weird like “I don’t think boss is telling you but…”. Just say “Hey it’s been great working with you! I won’t be at Company X after Monday but wishing you all the best / stay in touch / here’s where you can find resources etc.

    2. ecnaseener*

      I mean, it’s fine to do even if it is “just” to feel better about leaving. You don’t need to cause conflict with it, just matter-of-fairly mention Monday’s your last day.

  43. The Prettiest Curse*

    A recent comment made me wonder what people’s with good, bad and mediocre work environments is like. As commenters sometimes mention, reading the letters on this site can make you over-estimate the percentage of truly toxic and awful work environments out there – though of course they very much exist.

    My work environment history, with jobs that lasted more than a year (I’ve had many that lasted less than that):
    Job 1 – Fine
    Job 2 – Fine/Good
    Job 3 – Pretty good for the first seven years I was there, went downhill and became less-than-great for the last two years I was there.
    Job 4 – Mildly dysfunctional, but not intolerably so. (They moved me off the team where I was being bullied as soon as I told them about it, which made my last year there much better than the first three.)
    Job 5 (current job) – Best work environment I’ve been in, helped by having a terrific boss and team.

    So what’s your work environment history?

    1. anne.l*

      Job 1: fine. Basic retail. Management was surprisingly supportive.

      Job 2: the most toxic, abusive place on earth. I’m still trying to unfuck my brain from that shithole.

      Job 3: literally an escape from Job 2. Was actually really great until the owners sold the business

      Job 3.5: (aka after Job 3 was sold to new management) not as bad as job 2 but pretty close. Working through pneumonia level bad.

      Job 4: fine. I miss some of the people I used to work with actually. Management got stupid towards the end which is why I left.

      Job 5: fine. Loved it here for a while but feeling over it. Pay is almost high enough to not be living hand to mouth. Boss is relatively flexible about stuff.

      But honestly my benchmark for a good job is “oh you’re not actively trying to murder me or force me to cover up a crime? Ok we good”

    2. anne mouse*

      Job 1: fine. Basic retail. Management was surprisingly supportive.

      Job 2: the most toxic, abusive place on earth. I’m still trying to unfuck my brain from that shithole.

      Job 3: literally an escape from Job 2. Was actually really great until the owners sold the business

      Job 3.5: (aka after Job 3 was sold to new management) not as bad as job 2 but pretty close. Working through pneumonia level bad.

      Job 4: fine. I miss some of the people I used to work with actually. Management got stupid towards the end which is why I left.

      Job 5: fine. Loved it here for a while but feeling over it. Pay is almost high enough to not be living hand to mouth. Boss is relatively flexible about stuff.

      But honestly my benchmark for a good job is “oh you’re not actively trying to murder me or force me to cover up a crime? Ok we good”

    3. Cookies for Breakfast*

      Job 1 – The place that taught me everything a workplace should NOT be (all I will say is “family-run startup”, and Glassdoor tells me they haven’t changed one bit)

      Job 2 – Good, sometimes great, for most of my years there; then on a downward spiral. The organisation as a whole mostly tries to do right by employees, the team I spent most of my time in was a dream to work with, and the work was interesting until I started feeling the need to leave my comfort zone. I then moved departments, and uncovered a well of dysfunction and blame games that wasn’t at all visible from where I previously stood. Burnout ensued.

      Job 3 – So far, so good. I could never have dreamed of a workplace this flexible, and everyone is lovely. But my great boss is about to leave, and the work is so technically complex, I fear my impostor syndrome will have a field day with that. We shall see how I feel about it in a few months’ time!

    4. Cruciatus*

      This has been on my mind because I’ve resigned–and I shed embarrassing tears when I did! I’m mainly resigning because of money and lack of professional development. My coworkers are great, and, except for the money, my employer is pretty good. So…going with full-time employment it’s:
      Job 1 – coworkers good, but everyone sucks up to management. Miss the coworkers, not the administration.
      Job 2 – Same place but new supervisor is a less of a suck up. Different set of regular coworkers but they are still pretty great. Admin still sucks.
      Job 3 – New employer. People were great, my office/supervisor sucked. Thank god for my 1 coworker I could be honest with and have sanity checks with. This was all down to our supervisor. She sucked in many ways, but one way was she’d write you helpful letters about all the ways you were sucking and how to improve. Coworker and I both left within a month of each other (and during the pandemic the supervisor moved to Florida and never came back, though I had already left that office years earlier).
      Job 4 – Same place as 3 but new department. Everyone told me “you’ll love working there”. They never said this about Job 3… Nor did they ask why I left. And this is where I’m at now! I do love it here! There are annoyances and while I have to be on site full time, I can do my duties how/when I want to and my coworkers are wonderful, helpful, supportive (both work-wise and not).
      Job 5 – TBD! I start there August 7th and am just hope, hope, hoping I don’t hate it! No reason to think I will, but it’s a new employer, and I don’t know anything else yet so fear of the unknown and all that!

    5. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      I don’t have a list of everywhere I worked every but here are my last 10 or so years job 1- horrible, the second worst job I ever had. job 2- meduim terrible, no money, just horrible, job 3 ( this job – pretty bad, but good money, good benefits, good children, wouldn’t mind doing a structured version of this

    6. Skippy*

      Just doing my professional gigs here:
      Job 1: great first professional job!
      Job 2: seemed terrible at the time, but in retrospect it was okay
      Job 3: boring but fine
      Job 4: completely dysfunctional mess
      Job 5: amazing! stayed for 10 years and probably should have never left
      Job 6: fine until there was a leadership change, then absolutely terrible
      Job 7 (current): has its ups and downs but ultimately it’s a bad fit

    7. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      Job 1: Nightmare startup with crazy owner. Zero trust. They ran out of money.

      Job 2: Was great, great manager, office and autonomy for first two year. Company was divested and went public, manager left, and it became a nightmare scene.

      Job 3: Was great for 4/5 years until we got a new CMO who brought in their own people from former company, and I was moved to report under a new manager who was a micromanaging B who didn’t like me from the start (along with several other long time people). Was laid off with a nice severance package.

    8. fine tipped pen aficionado*

      Job 1 – Chaotic and wildly unprofessional but it was childcare and I was in college so the good outweighed the bad back then. (It would not today.)
      Job 2 – Same old retail BS, but I really enjoyed the work itself and only quit when we got a toxic new store manager.
      Job 3 – Pretty good. Org was dysfunctional but my team was great, the work was good for me at the time, and my supervisor was invested in my development.
      Job 4 – Promotion from Job 3. Better than Job 3 but similar wins/challenges.
      Job 5 – The worst. The absolute worst. Promotion from Job 4 (still same org) but I learned how important it was to be on a team with people who don’t hate each other and a manager who is competent, engaged, and supported.
      Job 6 – A dream. Promotion from Job 5 in a different dept at same org and I’m in heaven. The only thing that could be better is winning the lottery and not needing to work at all.

    9. Justin*

      Job 1 – Fun, but really sort of a unique situation because I was teaching overseas.
      Jobs 2-3 – Part-time, underpaid, exploitative while I was in my MA program.
      Job 4 – I liked the people (mostly) and the work, still underpaid, no room for advancement.
      Job 5 – Started off great, management changed, then it was bad. The work was fine but the team was not. Really affected me negatively.
      Job 6 (now) – Absolutely great. Well-paid, flexible, accepting of me because of how I am (ND and Black) not in spite of it, and I really like my coworkers.

      So, I liked parts of all my jobs, only fully bad was the part-time ones but that was sort of expected, and then bad management at the last one, which really came down to two bad individuals and a few other miserable colleagues. But I also have a lot a lot of degrees so certain things are open to me that aren’t to everyone so I’m obviously in a specific situation.

    10. A Girl Named Fred*

      If we’re just talking work environment/culture, I’d say…
      Job 1 – Fine, but some “small business” issues
      Job 2 – Pretty good, though I didn’t appreciate it at the time
      Job 3 – Toxic AF (from leadership)
      Job 4 – Somehow even more Toxic AF (from leadership)
      Job 5 (current) – Great

      I sometimes look back at Jobs 1 and 2 and the reasons I didn’t like the environment and think, “Sweet summer child had no idea what a dysfunctional workplace actually looked like, but (Jobs 3 and 4) cleared that RIGHT up….”

    11. A Penguin!*

      1 – Toxic, but only obvious in retrospect. Would have classed it as ‘fine’ at the time.
      2- Disorganized mess, but surprisingly ok despite that.
      3- Good to excellent
      4- Fine
      5- Fine within my team; toxic outside it
      6- Bad, but not exactly toxic
      7- Amazing++
      8- Fine (current)

    12. Wordybird*

      Job 1 (temp): project-based with no benefits or ability to be FT but not bad, met lots of interesting people as I was moved from project to project

      Job 2: pretty toxic culture, decent manager (who I knew personally before taking the job), did receive raises (25-50 cents) every quarter, had to work overlapping shifts & some Saturdays

      Job 3 (seasonal): state agency, toxic culture, hours were dependent on the time of year e.g. sometimes 8-4:30 am & sometimes 8 am – 10 pm with 5+ hours of waiting around, spoke to my grandboss in the same office twice in the 18 months I worked there

      Job 4: start-up environment, boss was a decent person but terrible manager, quota-based with 3-4 hours per day of sitting at the computer “looking busy”, never received a raise, received best review in the department only to be laid off 6 weeks later because someone else had 8 weeks more “seniority” with the company than I did

      Job 5: very small non-profit, toxic managers who were in a LTR with one another, required to be in-office to man the desk but often no work to do and no one else in the office, hours capped at 30-32 so couldn’t receive benefits, decent co-workers, was given a lot of opportunity to learn things on the job and change processes as long as they weren’t “too techy”

      Job 6: first completely remote role, boss was a decent person but terrible manager, two other coworkers were favored and ran the show, good pay & good benefits although never received the title or raise I asked for, lots of last-minute project changes & deadlines to meet

      Job 7 (current): remote with better pay but worse benefits than the last job, boss is a decent person and better manager, lots of last-minute project changes & deadlines to meet but with 5x more people to get the changes signed off by, HR is trying to cultivate a good culture but most people have not bought in and/or think lots of the culture programs are cheesy or taking time away from real work

    13. Irish Teacher*

      I did a lot of subbing and most of those jobs varied from a day to two months, so hard to judge environment for those.

      For the jobs I’ve spent a year or more in:
      Work experience during college: Very hard to explain. Pretty dysfunctional, but not entirely in a way that made it unpleasant to work there. Basically, there were only two full-time members of staff (in our workplace; it was part of a larger organisation), along with some part-timers, volunteers and work experience students and the boss was…a very nice person but probably had some mental health issue in a era when such things were less well-understood and by that, I am talking things like pathological lying and having days when she was completely hyperactive (that’s not even the right word but I have no idea how to describe it) to the point that you couldn’t get anything done if she was even in the room as she’d start responding to stuff with nonsense and other days when she was in a bad mood and would criticise everybody and everything (each of these were maybe one day a month, but still). It was a weird environment and the small staff combined with the nature of the work meant the personal and the professional got more intertwined than was necessary. One of the part-timers was a bit of a Del Boy and if you mentioned you needed anything, would offer to get it for you, cheap. (OK, this is sounding pretty dysfunctional and more so than I realised at 19/20).

      Retail job: A company that was noted for its poor treatment of staff, but our manager and deputy manager were pretty decent and very supportive. There were issues due to not enough staff and stuff.

      Current job: Brilliant. Most of us genuinely get on well, without it being a “we must all be best friends!” sort of place and when I told my bosses I needed time off for surgery, the response was “well, the job comes a long way down the line after your health.”

      Correcting: This is a job I do for a month each summer and have since 2007. We work from home and it is very flexible and well-run. It has to be, given the profile of the state exams here.

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        Ha, it must have been pretty entertaining to work with a Del Boy type, even though the rest of that work environment sounds difficult.

    14. WantonSeedStitch*

      Mine is surprisingly short for my age because I haven’t moved around much.

      Job 1: long-term temp job after grad school. Less than a year. Fine.
      Job 2: first permanent job. Horrific. I quit without anything lined up because I was on the verge of a breakdown.
      Job 3: found after some temp work. Been here over 16 years. Most aspects of it have been amazing all that time. There were a couple years when some stuff got rough, but they’ve been followed by the best time yet.

    15. Mill Miker*

      Sticking to jobs in my field:

      Job 1: Nice people, no business sense, hard not to take on that stress
      Job 2: Decent business sense, morally questionable management. Tried to make up for bad management with gifts.
      Job 3: Toxic, bad, awful. Still talking about it in therapy.
      Job 4: Started great, got worse and worse as the workload outstripped the team’s capacity. Also comes up in therapy a lot.
      Job 5: CEO was pretty great. Department started not great, got really good, and then started down the same road as Job 4 when the workload picked up (although I don’t think it would have gotten as bad).
      Job 6: Bad fit. Short-lived job. They already had some of the problems Job 4/5 developed, but hid it well in the interviews.
      Job 7: Pretty good, although the workload is starting to outstrip the team’s capacity, and I’m getting nervous. They’re responsive to feedback though, so here’s hoping.

    16. NotBatman*

      Job 1 — Fine, great managers but terrible customers

      Job 2 — Fine/good, great managers and inoffensive customers

      Job 3 — Boring environment, but with great coworkers

      Job 4 — Good environment. Underpaid, and there was some drama among other departments, but the work itself was fulfilling and I’m still friends with most of that team.

      Job 5 — Atrocious. Dysfunctional power structure, overworked staff, bad pay, tolerance for homophobia, the most dishonest CEO I’ve ever experienced, and constant demands for us to (badly) do things that weren’t our jobs and we didn’t have the training to do well.

      Job 6 (current job) — Wonderful. Pay’s still meh, but I’m doing work that I love and there’s a ton of flexibility and support at the same time.

    17. Miss Thymia*

      My job history is extremely fragmented, but here goes:

      Job 1 – fine for me, but in retrospect I wonder how problematic it might have been for others (I was a teenager and working with my mom and two other extended family members, one of whom was the owner, and about 15 additional employees)
      Job 2 – terrible work with little to no support, but not toxic
      Job 3 – first really great office environment (small team, everyone was respected and valued, and the overall boss was a little peculiar/eccentric but not unreasonable once I got to know her work style)
      Job 4 – not an environment as much as a solo endeavor, but a truly amazing opportunity and experience (overlapped with Jobs 3 & 5)
      Job 5 – great mix of work plus people
      Job 6 – first post-college and only full-time job, and SUUUUPER toxic; this was a similar environment to Job 1 and was what made me curious what the family dynamics might have looked like from the outside (though this one was a husband and wife on a team of 5, and husband/boss had other issues as well)
      Job 7 – mediocre work with good people
      Job 8 – current job, great work, great people

      Very interesting to look back on, especially as I’m considering pivoting into something new and more sustained.

    18. RagingADHD*

      In a job history stretching back to the late 1990’s (which is all I claim on my resume), I have had zero job environments that were toxic. I have one stint on there that was pretty disorganized and not on great financial footing (the partners eventually split up), but the people were nice. I have had a few annoying people in my periphery, and a few clients who were higher-maintenance than they were worth.

      I had a few banana-cracker-eating places when I was a student or new grad. That was as much about not knowing how to screen as anything else.

    19. Tio*

      Job 1: Fine, liked the people, just couldn’t get better pay.
      Job 2: Felt fine, but was low key dysfunctional, and then imploded spectacularly causing me to leave
      Job 3: Good, probably would have stayed if I hadn’t found a better job
      Job 4: Actually doing great so far

      I feel like part of the reason that we think the percentage is off, is because so many people have at least one bad job in their career, that we forget that is only a portion of their career. Everyone’s got that one story, you know?

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        I definitely agree with your comment about perception issues. I think it’s partly because really negative or outlandish stuff just tends to live longer and more vividly in our memories than the normal, boring stuff. I’ve been on the receiving end of workplace bullying twice, but those two situations make up a tiny percentage of my overall work history, time-wise.

    20. Sigh it's OK I guess*

      I have only had 2 jobs since graduation college, and have now spent almost the same amount of time at each. It’s a niche field so I don’t have much in the way of choices in the first place.

      Job 1: Toxic, family-owned business that made me cry at work more that I would like to admit. I was young and came from a verbally abusive family and thought that it was MY fault that it sucked to work there. Leaving that job was the best thing I ever did.

      Job 2: Still family-owned, but not toxic and is pretty good as far as jobs in my field go. Still has some glaring flaws that grate on me, but I don’t think that I could get the additional hybrid work that I would like at a different job without losing some of the benefits I have at my current job.

    21. fhqwhgads*

      Job 1: fine
      Job 2: disorganized and dysfunctional, but no abusive just frustrating as hell
      Job 3: first 3 years – great; last 3 years – ridiculous, with a handful of completely breaking certain states’ labor laws despite having had employees there for 10+ years and claimed ignorance and didn’t seem remotely concerned enough when it was brought to their attention
      Job 4: mostly fine, save a couple higher ups who are terrible at leadership and that’s their whole job – they make things inefficient but are not unkind or offensive

    22. J*

      Job 1 – Fine, basic retail

      Job 2 – Really nice, college office job with lovely teams

      Job 3 – Okay internship, helped me realize I didn’t want to go into that line of work. Got cancer in the middle of it so that was kind of my bad too.

      Job 4 – Okay. Didn’t remember what they hired me for. But decided to pivot my career a bit. Turns out the work I did here made me great for jobs 8-10.

      Job 5 – Liked it, helped me realize I didn’t want to go into that line of work but it was good for being back in school.

      Job 6 – Dysfunctional but good enough. This is where we go downhill. Good in the sense of being capable and I loved the work, adored most colleagues. Bad in the sense that the boss was sued by half the staff the week I joined (for discrimination, sexual harassment, retaliation and refusing to accommodate a disability) and I was a witness to an assault by the head off the office on a candidate and a fellow employee smeared poop on the walls but couldn’t be fired because he was a nepo baby. I stand by my description but that might be a trauma response.

      Job 7 – Dysfunctional but launched my career. I finally got a job in my industry but criminally underpaid. The boss was a mess, exposed himself to a colleague, stalked an ex, later had an arrest and had to resign his job very publicly. Lifelong friendships though. Again, probably the trauma bonding of it all.

      Job 8 – Great until it wasn’t. I had a great job but didn’t realize the abusive nature of the workplace until far too late, like a lobster boiling in a pot. Stayed here for years and was crying in the car daily by the end. I gained so many skills here and became an expert in a super niche industry that was no longer a good fit for the employer.

      Job 9 – Dysfunctional at best. My boss and I left the same week. We left behind the worst colleagues ever. Criminally underpaid.

      Job 10 – Dysfunctional but into overpaying me and it’s remote so I tolerate it. I’ve clearly seen worse. I’m getting even more niche skills that are in short supply so I’m hoping I’ll have options when I’m ready to leave. This will either end in the company shutting down because of cashflow issues or white collar crime charges for the C-suite, though I’m timing my exit to watch from a distance.

      I had a conversation with my husband about how he’s never had a dysfunctional job. He’s survived two mergers, we actually worked together at 2 employers (1 and 4) and somehow he just has a nice boring career. I clearly can’t imagine a life like that and I think it’s because my two niches (law and startups, but also previously government serving elected officials) put me with crazy male bosses with ego issues.

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        It’s so interesting that certain career areas tend to have dysfunctional work environments, whereas others you can just spend your entire working life in fine, normal, boring organisations! I think the ego issues you mentioned are definitely a factor, as well as careers that are highly competitive, because there’s always a new supply of employees/victims.

    23. WorkingRachel*

      Ooh, this is fun!

      Job 1: Started out chaotic with my boss quitting with no notice, but generally fine.
      Job 2: Toxic AF. Got out in less than a year when it started to affect my mental health.
      Job 3: Dull with mild dysfunction, though not on my team. Got a great boss in year 5 so it went from meh to stellar.
      Job 4: Started out crappy and gradually traded up my coworkers until by the end I was working with an amazing and very functional team.
      Job 5: Only been there a month. Fine so far?

  44. Warrior Princess Xena*

    Looking for some short Zoom/Team game suggestions!

    For context: my workplace has a once a month department meeting which has traditionally ended with “Game Time” – a five minutes fun little activity that can be done online. I ended up taking over the role after my coworker burned out. And before people can get worried, I can assure you that A) most people enjoy it and B) it’s always at the end and strictly optional, so no one’s being penalized by leaving!

    So far I’ve relied pretty heavily on Sporcle quizzes, but we’ve got a workplace with enough range in background, interest, and English speaking skill that finding things that will be equally accessible for everyone can be a challenge. Most of my research in Teams/Zoom games has pointed me to things that would take too long or are WAY too personal (I refuse to enter myself into Mortification Week with “I started a game of Two Truths and a Lie in the office”). If anyone has suggestions for something that can be done in 5-10 minutes, is mostly virtual, and is accessible to the vast majority of people I’d be grateful!

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Maybe a quick round of Pictionary? Teams has a whiteboard function. I haven’t used it much, but I think anyone in the meeting can “draw” on the whiteboard. Or the person drawing can just share their screen and draw in Paint or a similar program.

    2. lurkyloo*

      Have people show their favourite thing on their desk (depending on team size)? Mine would be the collection of Koodo guys that my son bought me for my workspace years ago! El Tabador if you want to look it up. :) Canadian cell company

    3. SereneScientist*

      A few of my favorite virtual Zoom games:
      – Drawosaurus: https://www.drawasaurus.org/ basically Pictionary but online browser-based so easy to use for teams spread across offices
      – Scattergories: specifically: https://swellgarfo.com/scattergories/ – just a nice interface, feel free to make up your own rules for scoring/# of rounds etc
      – Spyfall: https://www.spyfall.app/ a nice browser-based version of Mafia
      – Gartic Phone: https://garticphone.com/ a variant of Telephone with drawings, a bit more complicated to set-up and learn but very fun

    4. Shannon*

      We’ve played an office space scavenger hunt kind of thing a few times, and it can be fun. The leader has 5 items in a list, the person with the most of those items wins. Entries have included
      – the largest book (someone had a medical tome that was easily 1000 pages)
      – oldest technology (someone had and still used a paper rolodex)
      – fluffiest animal
      – largest cup/mug/glass (did you know they made 100oz water bottles?)
      – most sharpies

    5. Sparkle Llama*

      I enjoy several of the games from Jackbox. You do need the ability to share audio which not all platforms support. Some have family friendly modes which would be helpful for work. Drawful would probably be the best one for work.

    6. Rick Tq*

      Use Kahoot to do little fun quizzes at the end? My experience is they only take a few minutes and you can make the questions fun or to be a review of something to take away from the meeting. It is a paid app but not hugely expensive.

    7. zucchiniplayer*

      Can’t link right now, but you should check out codenames! It does require 2 ‘teams’, and is usually played in the span of maybe 15 mins, but I think you could set time limits to speed round it.

    8. trilusion*

      great browser game for work colleagues imo:
      – geotastic (try different modes, the “country battle” is the most popular where I work)
      – seconding garticphone (also try different modes, the “knockoff mode” has proven to be hilarious)
      – skribbl.io

  45. Jess R.*

    What are your work joys this week?

    We had two big meetings in our office for folks who work elsewhere around the state, so even though I wasn’t involved in the meetings/trainings themselves, I got to meet in person some people I had only ever emailed, which was neat! Also the big meetings mean they ordered lots of food and had plenty of leftovers :D

    1. I gave Barbie the color pink*

      Our interim Dev/Comm Director and our interim Comm Coordinator successfully launched our Quarterly Report. They’ve only been on deck for a month since our last Comm Mgr left. It’s been hecka for them. We’re already getting donations from it.

      I had lunch with recently departed Comm Mgr and she loves her job, and it was great to catch up with her.

    2. Irish Teacher*

      State Examinations are corrected and without any hassle despite it being our first time to do it online (instead of correcting the physical papers, they were scanned so we could correct them online).

    3. Potatoes gonna potate*

      Is this/will this be a regular weekly post? If not, it should! Sadly I have nothing to report this week. I’m caught up in this anxiety loop so things are meh.

      1. Jess R.*

        It could be! I’ve been having a deeply crappy week at work (not work’s fault, just timing + workload + been sleeping like garbage due to medication fuck-up) so I was like, hmm, what’s good about my work week? I’m sure I can find one thing. And apparently the answer was Olive Garden and Panda Express.

        Well, and meeting some coworkers :D

    4. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      I got glowing reviews on my first deliverable in my new role. This role is such a bad fit for me, it means a lot for something to go right!

    5. Justin*

      Some of my major projects are coming to fruition and everyone is impressed. It’s really a nice feeling. I’m not a workaholic but I do like my work to be appreciated and it is, now.

    6. Hotdog not dog*

      I had my midyear performance review, and it went surprisingly well! I wasn’t expecting it to, since we’ve had a ton of turnover including management. My new (interim) manager had asked the previous manager (who got promoted to another role) for feedback so she wouldn’t be reviewing someone she had only managed for 3 weeks. I didn’t feel I was at the top of my game so far this year due to all the changes, so it was really encouraging to hear that Interim Manager recognized the challenges.

    7. WorkNowPaintLater*

      I ran a training session for a small group. And got complimented.

      Considering I haven’t trained anyone somewhat formally in a couple of decades I’ll take that as a win.

    8. BigMove*

      I rarely meet clients in person, or visit colleagues in other offices. It is always interesting to get to meet them!
      This week was personally hectic and my boss was kind enough to let me work from home a couple of extra days at the last minute. Also my team was great in handling incoming projects and following up on a few things for me. That’s not unusual but I really appreciated it this week.

    9. The Prettiest Curse*

      I was on holiday this week, so didn’t have to think about work at all! (Except for the brief replies I wrote in the conferences thread on Thursday.)

    10. Two jobs*

      I am currently juggling two part-time jobs, both of which have varying schedules. My supervisor for job #1 is being very accommodating to job #2, this making this whole balancing act possible.

  46. Pink Shoe Laces*

    I’m newish at my job. I’ve created some documentation/reporting stuff to make my job and my boss’s job easier, to improve workflow and communication. With what I’ve done, he’s given me positive feedback and said how this is awesome. However, I notice he never looks at them, and he’ll ask me do tasks or questions that my document contains, or I’ve flagged down for him separately. I’m thinking about giving it another month then asking if he’s using them. If not I’ll probably stop doing them if it’s not of actual value. Any advice?

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Did your boss ask you to do this or did you do it on your own in the hopes it would keep your boss from asking so many questions?

      If your boss didn’t ask you to do them, I don’t think I’d get too hopeful that he’s going to use them of his own volition.

      Also, I don’t know this for sure without knowing more of the specifics, but this seems like something you’d bring to your boss at a one-on-one and then, if he were on board, he would implement since he’s the guy in charge.

      1. Pink Shoe Laces*

        I did them to help improve the workflow, however before I built them out I chatted about them with my boss, explaining the how and why and asked him if he would find them valuable, he said they would be helpful for us and other departments. My grand-boss told me they partly hired me because I had so much experience and they want me to implement new best practices, etc.

    2. HugeTractsofLand*

      This is a little tricky because you’re still new and likely still figuring out your role/your boss. In my experience, bosses are always going to feel more entitled to ask for something instead of searching for it. Depending on your role, it may even be part of your job to pull that stuff for them as many times as they want! The documentation is smart because it makes *your* life easier. Boss could ask for the same thing 10 times in a week, and documentation makes it faster for you to pull. If you find that Boss is asking for the same thing frequently, it makes sense to link him to your doc or even mention it in passing like “I’ve noticed you ask for X often. Do you want me to keep linking you to the documentation, or is that the kind of thing you’d prefer I do for you?” Overall, though, I wouldn’t give up on the documentation as long as it’s helpful to you, or helpful for if/when you’re out sick, leave the job, etc.. As someone who’s made a billion how-to guides, I also suggest not taking it personally if what you created doesn’t get used.

    3. Cookies for Breakfast*

      Could he be giving you positive feedback because the documentation gave him insight on some of your qualities? For example, that you take initiative, and think about workflow and communication in a way that he appreciates.

      Something similar happened to me when I was new at my current job. My manager asked for my thoughts on a process she wanted to update, I offered to take a look at her draft and add my own suggestions, and my workflow got glowing feedback, but never got used (neither did her first version). However, I noticed my manager started to call out some of my strengths very early in our working together, and the way I documented and explained that process must have been the reason. I was very new and had lots to learn, so I couldn’t have made any meaningful contribution to ongoing projects in that time. That example of how I think and communicate may well have served as reassurance I had the transferable skills she’d hoped for.

    4. Lady_Lessa*

      I would continue to do them, if not for your boss, but for the next person.

      I’ve bounced around the US both geographically and industries. One very common thing is the amount of tribal knowledge that isn’t documented. I try to do what I can to correct that.

  47. HugeTractsofLand*

    Does anyone have a recommendation for breathable women’s flats for the office? For some reason when I’m active at work, all the sweat goes right to my feet! I’ve had a lot of success with Allbirds, but I wear them to death within a year. Any durable, breathable shoe recs would be appreciated.

      1. HugeTractsofLand*

        Ooh, thank you! These remind me of a pair of shoes I had (and loved) years ago, I’ve never really seen that laced style since.

      1. HugeTractsofLand*

        Thanks for the rec, they look cute and the washable part is very handy! Did you run into any issues with sizing? I’m seeing that they run small, and unfortunately there aren’t any stores around me where I can try it out.

        1. Bluebonnet*

          I own a pair of Rothy’s and can confirm they run small. I generally wear (US) size 8.5 flats and size 9.5 running shoes. However, I ended up being most comfortable in size 10 Rothy’s. They easily let me exchange the shoes until I found a size that fit (two exchanges in my case).

      2. Paris Geller*

        I love my Rothy’s, but I don’t find them breathable–they tend to make my feet sweat more than ever!

    5. Unfettered scientist*

      I recommend ballet type socks that don’t show in flats. It’s the only way to make sure that your feet won’t stink and it opens you up to wearing more different kinds of flats

  48. Joyce to the World*

    Over 10 years ago I was forced by my company to 100% working from home. I haven’t stepped foot into the office in at least 7 years. The company sold the building and set up in another building further away in a much more congested area. Just recently found out that I have to start going to the office once a week. My whole life is built around working from home. I am in shock. Also, apparently now the thought of driving 25 miles in rush hour traffic, trying to find something appropriate to wear and leaving my dogs and home has become a source of major anxiety. I am sure once I go a couple of times I will be OK, but my question is, has anyone else found that returning to the office after so long has created anxiety for you?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I would be in that boat as well, I’ve worked remotely for nine years (exactly – today is my 9 year anniversary). My dogs have never known me to not work from home, barring the occasional one-day event. I don’t have a work wardrobe, and my car just told me it needs an oil change for the first time in three years. (I asked the dealership if I should bring it in yearly just in case and they said no, trust the system, so I do.)

      1. Joyce to the World*

        Another source of anxiety is that my boss said all I have to do is swipe in and I don’t have to stay all day. Well, I would want to at least stay long enough to make it some what worthwhile for the 50 mile round trip commute. I feel like it is a waste of time and my resources. There will be no collaboration since all of my teammates are at least 200 miles away.

        1. Weaponized Pumpkin*

          Consider letting yourself off the hook for staying to make it “worthwhile”. The requirement is simply to badge in. Whether you stay or not doesn’t change the number of miles you drive or resources you use or gas it takes – it’s the same either way. It’s a waste either way! I used to come in for a couple hours for show and if no one was there and no one needed me I went home. I’d literally roll in at 11 and be out by 2 to avoid all rush hour.

    2. Lady_Lessa*

      I can sympathize. Once when I was on unemployment, and my job had been in a different state than my residence. Of course the unemployment was in the job’s state. Once I had to go to their office (on the far side of the city) just to sign in on their computer in the lobby. Not even talking to a person about my job hunting.

      Good luck with having to go in.

  49. Anxiety Temors*

    Augh. I’m sick with anxiety over this, and it’s a long story, but just not sure how to proceed.

    My spouse had a very bad conversation with her boss last week regarding the boss’s habit of yelling at her. Built-up work stress had been exacerbating my spouse’s chronic illness, but this pushed her over the edge and she collapsed. She was incapacitated (unable to speak clearly, form sentences, move her hands.)

    She wasn’t able to make the call she was out of the office, so I did. She didn’t improve over the weekend, so I called on Monday. Then Tuesday I sent in medical documentation that spouse isn’t able to work and may be able to talk next week. No answer from her boss or anyone in the company yet.

    Obviously the most important thing is spouse recover, but the anxiety of this situation is looming over her. Should she expect an immediate firing? Will she have to give detailed explanations and defend what happened? Should she go in assuming she’ll be fired, or with a plan to return to work? (She had already started looking for a new job before the collapse, but that will be delayed, of course.)

    Is there any way to come back from the embarrassment of a sudden, “convenient” illness? I’m sure it looks suspicious that she had the conversation and immediately couldn’t work, but this is a sincere and medically supported problem.

    It’s a mess and horrible.

    1. Princess Buttercup*

      This workplace sounds extremely toxic if this is what your spouse is dealing with and is worried about. I know you said she’s job hunting, but she needs to get out of there ASAP for her own health.

      Does she qualify for job-protected FMLA (or similar) leave? Not sure what country you’re in or what they have available. If you’re able to afford it, I’d say she needs to take some extended time off to recover from this and not go back to this job, if possible.

      1. Anxiety Temors*

        Unfortunately the company is just under the number of employees to qualify for FMLA. We’re definitely lucky (i.e. she is responsible enough) to be able to have six or so comfortable months without work. Definitely needs time to recover – not just physically but mentally after this.

    2. Parenthesis Guy*

      This is probably time to talk to a lawyer. If a hostile environment is doing this much damage to your spouse, then that’s bad.

      They shouldn’t fire your spouse over a medically documented illness. They should feel embarrassed to talk to you. I don’t think there’s anything to come back from on your spouse’s end. But who knows what they’ll say?

      1. Anxiety Temors*

        That’s part of the issue – the boss and associated leadership are extremely unpredictable and tend towards the unprofessional. They can’t be shamed – there’s been incidents previously where what they did was likely legally actionable, but people (not just my spouse) have been trying to hang on.

        Lawyers will be consulted. It sucks to have to do that.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Is there a contact in HR to discuss short-term disability or FMLA? I don’t know what her PTO situation is like, but it might be time to ask those questions. It would at least give you someone to speak to there, and would ensure she’s trying to do the right steps.

      1. Anxiety Temors*

        Supposedly, there is unlimited PTO…which in practice has meant no PTO. Getting time off with approval has been very difficult. And, unfortunately, there is no HR. The COO is filling in for it, but when approached previously, the COO was less than helpful.

        It’s really frustrating. At this point, spouse isn’t planning on going back and just trying to make a graceful exit if possible. Although, it’s going to be hard as she hasn’t spoken to her boss or anyone from the organization since she called out. Might be able to talk to them this week, if her speech returns to normal.

    4. MacGillicuddy*

      Why would she be fired for being ill? (aside from the jackass boss firing her on a whim). I’d think she would have grounds to sue.
      You have the medical documentation, therefore she’s out because of illness. Does the job have sick days or short term disability?

      1. Anxiety Temors*

        I think it would be less for being ill and more for being so unprofessional as to disappear for a week without approval. Also, there were issues before her medical collapse with the boss being disrespectful and setting spouse up to take the fall for other employee’s actions. But, of course, with documentation that could be ground to sue.

        No sick days or disability – in theory, they have unlimited PTO to be used for anything they want, but it’s not really accepted in practice.

  50. MoreCatsPlease*

    Hello. I’ve been a software engineer for over 8 years. I’ve been job searching for almost a year to escape a toxic job. No success. At this point, I would like out of my field. I don’t enjoy the competitive nature at all. I would greatly appreciate any suggestions for adjacent careers I can move into considering my technical background. I’m not interested in consulting. I don’t have a big enough ego for that. Thanks in advance.

    1. mreasy*

      In-house at a non tech company would be less competitive. Otherwise, technical writing or even IT?

      1. Lyudie*

        Some of the best technical writers I’ve known started as programmers. Seconding that suggestion, if it’s something that appeals, or instructional design. I create training for software and having more technical knowledge is always good.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I work in IT, and I’ve found my job to not be that stressful at all (I do some backend stuff, not tech support), and it always seems as if the software engineers at my company are way more stressed than I am. Definitely look into possibly exploring IT.

    3. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I have no advice to offer you, but great commiseration and condolences. I could have composed your post.

    4. fhqwhgads*

      I moved from software engineer to qa engineer and went from 10/10 stress to 2/10 stress. It helped that I moved to a company with more reasonable expectations all around, but mostly, being the person whose job is to find the problem is way less stressful than being the person who has to figure out how to fix the problem.

  51. Truckling stream*

    I had an interview today (third and final interview for the job) and I’m afraid I may have messed it up a bit. I followed Alison’s advice and I was very prepared, and I said basically everything I had planned to say, and my answers were – I’d say – good. But…the chemistry wasn’t there! These were the things that went wrong for me: 1. I was tired. Not my fault – there’s a lot going on – but I wish I had planned things so that I could have a nap before the actual interview. 2. I dressed less formally than usual, because I noticed in my first 2 interviews that the interviewers were dressed much less formally than me. And since there’s a lot going on in my personal life right now, I was quite looking forward to being able to present as MYSELF in something that I know suits me, rather than feel a bit stressed wearing an uncharacteristic blouse or something. But I dunno…wearing casual clothes to an interview just made me feel less polished, and it distracted me! 3. The big one: I believe I prepared TOO much. I had my answers practically learnt off. It made me stilted and uncertain, because rather than thinking genuinely about the question, I was trying to *remember what I’d planned to say*. Next time, I want to do it differently somehow.

    SIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH !!

    1. Friendly Office Bisexual*

      Well, I wasn’t at the interview so I can’t say for sure — but it does sound like you’re being hard on yourself. It’s possible you did fine or even well. For the answers that you did give, even if they were memorized, do you think they painted an accurate picture of your skills and experience?

      1. Truckling stream*

        Thank you. In fairness, yes I think they did.
        But do you know that feeling when you come out of an interview where you feel, “I liked meeting them, and they liked meeting me”? I had a different feeling this time – “We wanted to like each other but the chemistry just wasn’t there, it felt awkward.” Which is disappointing when I put so much prep in, and would love the job.
        I’ll have to wait and see…

        1. Mike B*

          Honestly, it sucks but these interviews have been good (painful but good) learning opportunities for me. Like, now you know to prioritize sleep, dress up not down, and stop practicing your answers before you get to where you were this time. Yes it would be great if it had gone well (though it sounds like it didn’t go badly—I’ve had interviews where I thought there was chemistry and not gotten the job, it’s hard to tell based on that!) but hiring isn’t personal and a lot comes down to stuff outside your control. I’d acknowledge the disappointment for yourself and just roll with whatever happens.

  52. DivergentStitches*

    We have an unlimited PTO policy at my company.

    My team’s management had a team meeting where they said if people continue to take time off, the powers that be might decide remote work isn’t allowed any more.

    Feels very weird to have our remote work held against us for using PTO as it’s given.

    1. Princess Buttercup*

      Classic. Unlimited PTO that isn’t really unlimited at all.

      Have they been taking a ton of time off instead or a normal amount?

      1. DivergentStitches*

        There’s 2 teams under the umbrella and I am on the smaller one; it doesn’t seem like people on my team have been taking an inordinate amount of time, although one lady is from Peru and she went back home for a visit and was gone 2 weeks.

        I can’t say whether the larger team has a lot of PTO taken or not.

        1. I'm Just Here For The Cats!!*

          2 weeks is not a lot of time for international trip. coworker took 3 weeks off a few months ago to visit family in Asia. Its fine. I could see if people were taking every Friday off or a week ever other month.

          Is there any push back you or others could do? Like when they bring that it up could you ask what they belive a reasonable amount is?

    2. EMP*

      That’s bullshit. I understand putting reasonable limits on PTO (where I work changed the name of the policy from “unlimited” to “flexible” to reflect the reality of our policy) but using remote work as a threat is childish. They should have a clear PTO policy and hold people to that and not bring remote work into it.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Yikes! Have they considered retitling “unlimited PTO” to be “severely limited PTO, but we accrue or pay you for any unused vacation time”?

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      Also, if they threaten this, they should 100% be prepared to lose good employees, who will immediately start job searching.

    5. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Could someone in the other team have taken the piss e.g. 3 months, in 1-2 chunks or 1 day per week forever?

      Anyway, difficult to see the connection of too much PTO with remote work. They are turning the wrong dial.
      Instead, why don’t they just change the “unlimited” PTO to whatever limit they had in mind, 4 / 5 /6 weeks.

  53. Trixiebelle*

    So I have my mid-year review coming up and while I have a good idea of what I what my boss’ feedback will be, after having a discussion with my friend about my development and career goals she was surprised by my title and said that I should ask for a bump. My title is currently something that sounds more entry level (think HR Coordinator/Administrator/etc); I was previously HR Assistant.

    I would say my title is not “wrong” in that I technically coordinate/administer/etc. – my duties are processing payroll, coordinating global mobility, benefits administration, new hire orientation, as well as more typical things like invoice submission and processing our mail. But my friend says my current title doesn’t show the level of work I do and would harm me in my next job search.

    – Do I actually need a change or is this a fair or fair enough representation of my duties?
    – Is 3 years in a role enough time to suggest a title change? I’ve received annual raises, 2 market adjustments, and an internal level change so I’m getting rewarded for my work and my boss mentioned the amount of my last raise is partially due to me taking on more. Is a title change ridiculous or an over-ask?
    – If I should ask, any suggested language to use and, to my HR people especially, what sort of title to suggest as a starting point? I’ve looked at job postings and titles like Generalist/Associate/Specialist feel slightly nebulous to me. There seems to be some overlap with my current duties but not a perfect fit, so any suggesting would be appreciated!

    1. EMP*

      I’m guessing based on your question that there aren’t other people in your department with the next title up?
      You could just bring to your manager that you’d like to discuss a title change/promotion given you’ve taken on X and Y tasks and excellent performance the past 3 years, and see what they come up with.

    2. Random Academic Cog*

      This kind of thing tends to be company-specific. In my field we’ve got coordinators, administrators, specialists (various levels), managers, directors – with little correlation from company to company. I do more as a manager than most of the directors I know in my field. Some of the specialists are also director-equivalent in pay and responsibilities. If your company doesn’t have another level in your area/job family, take a look at equivalencies in another job family that include your current coordinator/administrator appellation as a mid-level option and use their next level as a title model. Good luck!

  54. Medical Librarian*

    I know there are a lot of librarians who read this blog. Do any of you have a PhD? Any thoughts on best schools and/or areas inside or outside of librarianship for obtaining a PhD?

    1. AnonAcademicLibrarian*

      I do not have a PhD in librarianship, though I have considered getting one outside the field and done some research. I think it depends on what you want a PhD in and why you want the PhD. If your goal is to teach librarianship at a library school, I think a PhD in librarianship is smart and I’ve heard that UIUC is really good. I did my grad work there and there were quite a few people on PhD tracks. My thing with PhD’s is always- why do you want one? And what is your goal? Because I think that’s really critical to sorting out the best path forward. It’s a big commitment.

    2. NotBatman*

      Simmons University is widely considered excellent for a Ph.D. in library science, and I have several friends who graduated from there and loved it.

  55. Box of Kittens - raise request*

    Very long story short: I asked for a raise about a month or so ago, and my direct supervisor is handling that request with our HR executives. However, our department has gone through some weird reorganization in the last year and has been a little bit overlooked. What I thought was a simple raise request (full disclosure: my supervisor wanted to recommend me for a promotion rather than just a market rate/COL adjustment) has turned into a weeks-long discussion between her and the HR execs about the future of the department and what it needs to look like.

    I am invested in that discussion, but also, I need a raise. I’m underpaid for my job title and a high performer. And this was now 6-8 weeks ago that I asked, and I have been given no time frame for when I might get an answer. There was a meeting this week between my supervisor and the higher-ups that I thought was going to be a “yes, here’s a raise/no, we can’t do that” meeting and it was yet more information gathering, of which we’ve given plenty over the last 6 months. I don’t want to leave this company yet, but I’m not sure my supervisor is being aggressive or even direct enough on behalf in communicating to the higher-ups that I asked for a raise, rather than a general “future of our department” conversation.

    I think I need to have some sort of conversation myself with the HR exec, but I’m not sure what that needs to look like and could use some help. (I’m happy to provide more details in the replies if needed – there’s a lot of weird context missing in this comment but I’m trying to keep it succinct.)

  56. Tony*

    My fellow team lead colleague who leads another team keeps messaging my team asking them to do things and involving them in meetings excluding me. His own Senior Management are not interested and when I tackle him there is always a good reason as to why this has happened. I tend not to know he has contacted my team until after it has happened. Other than making it clear to my team that they answer to me and talking to him directly is there anything else I should do?

    1. Rick Tq*

      Can you take this up to your Senior Management so they can take the issue to your common Grandboss? It sounds like you need (with your manager’s support) need to require your staff to clear ANY work or meetings requested by Fergus to be approved by you or them.

      Do you do any kind of project-related billing? If so, before you approve any work require Fergus provide accounting codes so you team’s work is properly billed against his project(s).

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I had a peer who would routinely enlist my direct report for her help. I had to train her to respond to all requests with:

      – “Let me loop in Giraffe so she’s aware of the request.”
      – “Happy to help but let me speak with Giraffe first.”
      – “Would you mind sending this request directly to Giraffe, please? She manages my workflow.”

      Eventually, the person who kept coming to my direct report for assistance learn he’d have to come to me first, and that all attempts to bypass me would just reroute to me anyway. It also helped empower my direct report to give an indirect no (eventually she had enough courage to give a direct no, too!).

    3. Loreli*

      Your team may know that they answer to you directly, but have you also told your team that when the lead of the other team asks them to do things, they should say “you’ll need to run this by Tony” or “ you need to ask Tony about that”

    4. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      “asking them to do things and involving them in meetings excluding me”

      You should tell your team to say – every time – that he must first contact you directly to request any task, including attending meetings.
      He’ll eventually stop doing this if they never do any of his requests, but in the meantime talk to him again, say no exceptions to contacting you first and that you have instructed your team accordingly.

      If any of your team are too anxious to be firm about pushing back like this, then go directly to your own boss, not his – who isn’t interested because the current situation is working fine for him.

  57. Betty*

    For those who has been laid off, do you feel the effects mentally later on?

    I was laid off at the beginning of May. I think I was secretly relieved because the company was acquired and it had been hell the past year and I had been trying to find a job for more than 6 months. I got extremely lucky and ended up getting an offer for another job by the end of May. I can’t believe how lucky and fortunate – I found it through a someone who worked with a former coworker, and it was a slightly less salary than my former job. However I’m very glad I found it because I like it, and that other job just got so horrible and was affecting me mentally.

    I’m wondering the sadness, anger or stress will manifest later on

    1. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      It sounds like the layoff was a great thing! Do you have any anger or sadness or stress about it or do you just expect you will because you think you should?

      People react differently to different situations. You’re allowed to just feel relieved and move on to greener pastures, which it sounds like you are doing!

    2. JMR*

      Our company underwent a round of layoffs this year. I was not one of the employees affected, but kept in touch with many who were. And all of them, every single one, told me that they felt a sense of great relief afterward. The rumors of the possible layoffs had been circulating for months, and everyone was under a great deal of stress. The anxiety of not knowing really took a toll on people, but once they knew it was happening, they immediately went into “GOTTA FIX THIS NOW LET’S GO” mode. And now that we’re a few months out from the layoffs, pretty much everyone I’m in touch with is employed again, and many of them were able to receive a title/pay bump or were able to take the opportunity to pivot to a slightly different role within the industry. So I don’t think it’s unusual or weird to not go through a period of sadness or stress!

    3. Lady_Lessa*

      I’ve been laid off multiple times, but most of the time not much residual effects. Job changes, location changes were more.

      I suspect that personality may be a factor. I am more of a go with the flow type. I tend to answer the question “What is your favorite place to live?” “wherever I am now.”

      I admit that I chose not to move closer to work the last time because I didn’t want to start over socially.

    4. allathian*

      I’ve been laid off twice. I’m in Finland, and when they lay people off, they have to let you work your notice period (usually a month at least) or pay severance.

      The first time I got laid off, it was because the chain retailer I worked for was closing my store. I got sent to another of their stores to work out my notice period, and the store manager liked me so much that she contacted corporate to cancel my layoff. I got a bit upset when I got the notice of layoff, and had started looking for another retail job.

      The second layoff was a company doing customer surveys by phone, so that meant cold calling people. The company was bought out by a larger company and all employees were laid off, although invited to apply to the new company. I was ready to move on from call center jobs so I didn’t. But I found my first professional job during the notice period from that company, so the shock was very short-lived.

      I don’t think you need to worry about sadness, anger or stress later, it sounds like the layoff was a great thing for you. Maybe you just need to internalize that you’ve moved on from the old job, and although your salary’s a bit lower, you seem to be in a better place mentally now that you’re in a healthier environment.

  58. Dino*

    I work in a mission-adjacent role (think compliance in a hospital or similar) and I have a problem that’s growing over time I need help with. Put simply, colleagues don’t listen to me or follow instructions I give. This had been an occasional occurrence and then we got a new operations manager who doesn’t follow the party line on things and actually continually undermines me and my directions. They’re sort of a ‘live your life do whatever’ type so even though I’m clear about what needs to be done or what policies need to be followed, they go against that or, if staff ask for clarity, they just say do whatever. I’ve raised the undermining issue wort grand boss who acknowledged it is a problem but wants to live a quiet life. Except this is driving me crazy and I feel like a child being annoyed no-one listens to me. Is there anything to do to improve engagement, in spite of the operations manager and how they are behaving?

    1. AnonRN*

      I work in a hospital and our compliance is reported to our accreditation agency. If we don’t get re-accredited, we lose Medicare/Medicaid funding etc… So, what are the stakes in your organization? What will you lose if you are not compliant? What will the impact of that loss be? Who are the stakeholders for that loss? That’s probably where you need to start: “Dan, if we fail our financial audit due to Beth’s idiosyncratic accounting methods, your project will lose funding. Beth, the audit board needs your accounting to conform to ABC standard or they will fail us and Dan’s project will lose its funding. We’ll have to fire you and 3 other people if that happens. Don’t let this happen.”

      Can you bring in your oversight agency to prove that these aren’t empty threats?

  59. a.p.*

    Best advice on dealing with the martyr-type coworkers? I love my organization and we have a great, professional, respectful culture. But there are a few staffers who complain constantly about their workloads, and then brush off or refuse offers for assistance. For example, just the other day, one of the admins (Gina) was complaining to everyone about a box she had to pick up from the post office. Another staff member volunteered to do it, and Gina said “…Oh, I’ll let you know later.” Gina then went and picked up the box herself, and continued complaining the next day about how often she has to go pick things up.
    It’s not a big issue, but it gets on my nerves when I have to work with these staffers and hear about how overwhelmed they are, when I know firsthand that they’re being offered a lot of support. Any ideas on how to curb the complaining without being rude or making it more of an issue?

    1. not a hippo*

      Greyrock greyrock greyrock. Don’t indulge her. Ignore or redirect.

      Hopefully eventually she’ll get the message that you won’t entertain her need for attention.

    2. Not a fan fan*

      I have a colleague like this, and I’m sorry to say there is literally no way to stop this person complaining. I mentally tune out a little and I say a few banal, nice things to them, like “oh yeah I hate getting stuck in traffic there too!”
      If they get aggressive-martyr, I do quietly assert myself. Eg. “I didn’t ask you to [do X]. I wouldn’t have asked you because I know you don’t have time.” and calmly move the subject on.
      With people who will never change, where I can’t change the situation, I play a private game to make it more bearable: Mentally count the amount of times they do [annoying thing] a day/week. It sounds pathetic but when you’ve no options, it can at least give you grim amusement and reassure you that you’re not imagining things.

    3. Mill Miker*

      Some people just like to complain, but it’s also worth checking if all the support being offered is like the example you gave: A quick one-time fix for the exact moment.

      If she’s actually upset that picking up packages in general is taking time away from other parts of her job, then someone offering to go pick up this one package doesn’t actually help her at all, as she’s still responsible for making sure the package got picked up right, and may even feel that she owes the helper a favour now.

      The fact that she’s complaining about how often she has to do it, even when there’s no longer a specific box to retrieve, makes me think she’s hoping for “support” in the form of an official change to responsibilities, not one-off favours.

  60. Sara without an H*

    Within the last two weeks, we’ve heard from a volunteer at an animal-related organization that was melting down in drama and rage-quitting, and from someone at a charity being held hostage by a volunteer who was the only one who could manage the jury-rigged database (that said volunteer had built). Since reading these, I’ve been thinking — how does one go about finding a volunteer gig in a healthy organization?

    It seems to me that seeking a volunteer position needs to be treated almost as seriously as looking for a paying job. Does anyone have suggestions to pass on about vetting volunteer opportunities for cultural fit and/or organizational health? I’m a recent retiree and, while I’m open to volunteering, I also don’t want to work anywhere that’s run by loons, no matter how noble their cause.

    1. Elle*

      One thing to keep in mind is that you can always stop volunteering if it’s not a good fit. Volunteering should be something you enjoy and has a benefit to you. You can look for places that have specific volunteer roles and a regular schedule. Ideally they have a volunteer manager who coordinates things and can answer questions ahead of time.

    2. different seudonym*

      It helps if it’s a public-facing place that you can interact with normally before you broach the question of volunteering. Like, just go, watch, and see if they seem like weirdos. Obviously, this only works in situations where it’s normal and unremarkable for randoms to be around.

      But also: most volunteers quit after a few weeks no matter what. Like 75%+; I’m basing that number both on personal experience and on [vague memories of] large-dataset studies. Maybe they don’t mesh with the culture; maybe something happens in their life (health issues loom large for many retirees); a lot of the time, they don’t really understand the impact of the time commitment on everything else until the cat has gone unfed three weeks in a row. ***No one resents this*** (except aforementioned weirdos). It is just how it goes when you’re aksing people to work for free.

      So I would encourage you to think of it less like looking for a career, and more like…online dating? Check out a place, see if it works for you; if not, keep it moving. I would also recommend going for the most low-level and general volunteer assignments first–stuff envelopes before you build databases. It’s all good.

    3. Roland*

      I don’t think you really need to treat it as seriously as you’d treat a job – you don’t need to worry about resume gaps/job-hopping/your next paycheck if it turns out to be a dumpster fire. Of course you want to know what you’re getting into if possible, and it’s good to filter out the worse places for your own peace of mind, but embrace your newfound total freedom to walk away whenever you want!

      Beyond that, I’d just look at Alison’s tips for how to do due diligence for paid jobs and adapt as necessary, I don’t think it would be a super different process.

    4. RagingADHD*

      The nice thing about volunteering is that you can stop anytime you want with no penalties. Of course, you should ask around about a place’s reputation, but you will soon see if there are problems.

      Of course, that is one of the reasons nonprofits so often get dominated by terrible people – the sensible people leave.

      Nonprofits are often started by idealistic people who have no experience running a business or large organization, and who don’t want it to be like a for-profit organization because it is mission driven. Then the founders / leaders are unprepared to deal with the challenges of managing people, or unable to pay for expertise. So they wind up dependent on the most able or most willing volunteers — who may not be the most well-adjusted or most altruistic.

      Then the sensible people leave because the terrible people have taken over, and the idealistic leader is stuck with an org full of terrible people. (Or sometimes the leader is terrible themselves).

    5. Never Knew I Was a Dancer*

      Like the others said, trying it out as a volunteer there is usually the only way to get an actual feel for the org. You can try things like reading Google reviews and finding Facebook or Next Door groups where people might chat about the org, but IME you don’t get a good idea at how functional or dysfunctional an org might be until you’re a volunteer.

      —That said, I would be *really* careful about handing over more than only a little bit of money to an org I’d just started volunteering with, and wait til I had a sense of whether I’d want to stay on as a volunteer before giving them any amount of money that was significant to me.

    6. Anon Vampire Meals on Wheels*

      I have a volunteer gig with our local blood bank, picking up coolers of blood from a satellite location or offsite blood drive and bringing them back to the central location. It’s a couple of hours a week (if I didn’t have a day job, I’d do more), and I really enjoy it. I show up, get the vehicle, drive out to the location, load the coolers, drive back, unload the coolers, turn in the keys, and go home.

      What I like about it is that it’s a really simple task that I find enjoyable and yet is clearly contributing to society. I can’t donate blood as often as I used to, so I’m glad to have this as a backup. And it’s largely drama-free; if there’s stuff going on in the organization itself, it’s not trickling out to us. The fabulous volunteer coordinator helps.

      I didn’t do a lot of vetting when I initially signed up; I figured that I was already familiar with the place from regular blood donation, it was only two hours a week, and if it turned out to be a bad situation, I could always quit. If I were considering a more time-consuming volunteer position or one where I’d be breaking a mentoring relationship if I left, then I might want to investigate more.

      If the group you’re considering has one-off volunteer needs, I’d recommend doing one of those and seeing how it’s handled. I’ve been to volunteer events that were so disorganized that I spent an hour standing around trying to figure out what they wanted me to do and who to ask; I didn’t volunteer with those organizations again.

  61. AnonAcademicLibrarian*

    I need some advice on how to manage my feelings when my staff complain about pay. For example, we got a 3% across the board raise at the Uni where I work, but also the increase in Insurance costs means some people actually saw slightly less take home pay. I get it. This sucks. I am advocating for my people as much as possible behind the scenes, but these decisions are made way over my head and sometimes even way over the head of the University. I know they aren’t really asking for any action from me, but I find myself getting defensive and I know that isn’t helpful. I’m just wondering if people have any way they’ve managed to reframe this in their heads so they feel a little less defensive when they hear these sorts of things. I don’t really say anything when I hear this stuff and I just sort of shrug it off, but it does really bug me and I wish I had a better way to manage that.

    1. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      It sounds like you genuinely have a lot of empathy for them and are advocating for them, but maybe you are reacting as if they know that and are complaining “at” you.

      Can you instead reconnect to your empathy for their situation, say you’re doing what you can? “I know, it sucks to have a pay increase that results in an effective pay cut. I’m very frustrated by the situation and by the way our hands are often tied to even do anything about it. I’ve been advocating a lot for you behind the scenes and I really appreciate all the work you do and value you as an employee. I loved the way you ___recently and I hope we can get resolution on this.” with an optional “and I support you doing whatever you need to support your family, I’ll always be a good reference for you. Obviously I don’t want you to leave but recognize the situation we’ve put you in”.

    2. mcm*

      Maybe if it’s possible to view this as commiserating with you rather than complaining to you? If I were in this position and complaining to a good boss about this issue, it would be with a tone of “i know this sucks for all of us, including you, who keeps having to argue about it.”

      or hear it as them giving you information about what’s impacting their satisfaction with the role. For instance, if people eventually were to end up leaving over it, it’s not about you, it’s about a decision made above you that you knew was a bad one. They’re giving you information about what’s impacting their job satisfaction that you can pass on (even if it ultimately doesn’t make a difference)

      1. AnonAcademicLibrarian*

        I think reframing it as commiserating rather than complaining is a really good way to think about it. I’m going to work on trying that. If they move on over this, I 100% get it and support that decision. They need to do whatever is best for them and their families. It’s just I think I feel more guilty/responsible about this than is rational.

    3. Random Academic Cog*

      Have you had blunt conversations about career development? Are there certifications that would rate a pay bump? Promotions that they’d qualify for if they took on extra duties? Other ways to get a raise beyond the pittance of a COLA? I’ve worked for crappy, mediocre, and great bosses and also nice but ineffective bosses. The great bosses are willing to spend political capital to make sure their people are taken care of with resources, raises, and promotions.

  62. yelling into the void*

    What do you do when you’re apathetic about your job? I’m not burnt out, but management made some decisions (way too much to get into here) that’s left me feeling “well fuck my drag” and disinclined to put forth any effort anymore.

    Obviously this will only hurt me in the end, so how do you get over a snub and get back to work?

    1. fine tipped pen aficionado*

      I mean… you don’t have to. If it won’t make you miserable to disengage and just do the minimum, then do it. You may already know this but sometimes it helps me to hear things from sources other than me. :) If you need it, this your permission to stop investing emotionally in work and refocus your passion and energy toward hobbies and relationships!

      If that doesn’t work for you… there are other fish in the sea?

    2. Never Knew I Was a Dancer*

      It’s hard. The things that have helped me were time, and also fostering more connections with my coworkers. I work remotely, so having that extra interaction with people who I enjoy interacting with can be a good infusion of energy/take my mind off of crap.

  63. Liane*

    For US commenters thinking about starting retirement Social Security, set it up well ahead of when you want to begin drawing it. As in more than 6 months.

    My husband went on the website last February to apply. Website said his payments would start on June 1, the month after his qualifying birthday.

    No June payment, but he figured there might be a backlog. When there was no July payment, he re-checked his account on the website. This time it said he was Pending Approval.

    Husband called up the local office of one of our US Senators for help since it was now 6 months since his application. It took a couple weeks to get it sorted, most of which was getting & signing the form giving the Senator’s staffers and Social Security people permission to talk about his account. Wednesday Husband got a call that Social Security had cut his check and it should arrive in 4-5 days.

    1. Decidedly Me*

      That’s annoying!

      I’ve long since assumed social security won’t be a thing when I retire…

  64. Watry*

    I walked in this morning and my workspace had been moved from my office to an open area. No one bothered to tell me, it’s sheer luck I didn’t come from the other direction where I would have been incredibly confused.

    I am currently pretending to be busy as the big bosses are in this area today and six months in I still have no job duties or training. Which reminds me that my six month post-transfer evaluation is next week and I have zero idea what it’s going to say, since my boss and grandboss are aware that this whole transfer has been a clusterf.

    1. juneybug*

      Are you sure you want to stay there? It sounds like job progression, training, raises, etc., will be a mess (like your training and desk arrangement is already).

      1. Watry*

        Working on it! I’m very close to vesting so I don’t want to leave altogether, and can’t afford a pay cut, so it’s going to take some time.

  65. Ready for a change*

    So after literally decades of employment at the same organization, I finally got tired of feeling taken for granted and have been job searching. I have an interview Monday that feels really promising but I haven’t interviewed for a new place since starting here and while I’ve changed titles multiple times, I only had to internally interview once, about 15 years ago. I’m meeting with a friend this weekend who works at the potential new employer to prep and I also plan to look back at AAM’s archives on interviews, but I would LOVE any advice that anyone might have to offer. Thank you in advance!

    1. AnonAcademicLibrarian*

      Practice. Get a friend who has interviewed people to help you. Give them a list of questions, but don’t have them tell you which ones they’ll ask and then have them ask you questions and practice answering them. The one I think is super important (and almost always get asked) is some version of- What do you want this job? And/or what interests you about this job? I think if you have a really solid answer to that one, than you’re already a huge leg up. I interview a lot of people and a lot seem to really struggle with that question, but as an interviewer, I really want to know you understand the job and are genuinely interested in the job I have, not the job you think I have (which tends to happen a lot in my field, people apply without really thinking about the actual duties, because the field sounds sexy or exciting to them).

    2. fine tipped pen aficionado*

      I don’t know how useful this advice may be since you already seem pretty invested, but my best interview performances have always been for roles that I wasn’t convinced I wanted/needed. The less emotionally invested I was, the better I presented myself and the easier it was to present myself well.

      This may not be true for you but if it is, you might try carving out time to look at and apply for other jobs so you don’t feel like as much is riding on this?

    3. Watry*

      I know you said you’re planning on looking through the AAM archives, but make sure you download her interview guide as well. Very handy for prepping answers.

    4. pally*

      How do you plan to address the ‘why are you leaving [current company] given your long tenure there?’ question?

  66. Lemon drop*

    Folks at organisations that encourage internal mobility: I’d love to hear how you went about it. At the firms I’ve worked at, we have to inform our line managers before the second round of interviews with the hiring manager for the new role. I don’t know how open to be about my career goals and I’ve hesitated to take up the option of mobility because I worry that it’ll impact me negatively if I don’t end up moving (e.g. if my manager stops giving me key projects or decides not to promote me since I’ve signalled I want to leave).

    What have your experiences been like?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I don’t have personal experience, but I have seen it done many times. I have worked a few companies where many people have worked in different departments/on different teams in their time at the company. I don’t know the nitty gritty details, but a few commonalities that are good signs in general:

      – the company is clear that it would prefer to retain a good worker with the company even if it means that employee moving to a different team/department

      – your team/department has had people transfer in/out

      If people have transferred internally into or out of a team run by your manager, then they know the process and won’t be surprised by bringing up “I want to try assembling teapots” when you talk about career goals. You can also ask people who have transferred internally at your company what their experience was like to get a better idea of your company’s specific process.

  67. fine tipped pen aficionado*

    I am stressing about something that isn’t even a problem yet, but I was recently hired into a new role with the expectation that I would be hiring an admin assistant for the department and managing them. One of my work friends interviewed for the role I got (there is zero bad feeling and I would have been happy to see her get the role instead) so she knows about the position as well. She is unhappy in her current department, but told me she wouldn’t make a lateral move over it.

    I just found out the position is actually an admin role one step above assistant, which would be the step up she’s been looking for and would come with all the growth opportunities she feels she’s been denied where she is (male dominated dept). She would be a great fit for our needs and the role would be a great fit for hers…

    Except if I was her manager then I couldn’t be her friend. :( I don’t want that to factor into her thinking cause income opportunities are so much more important than our friendship. And she may not apply for some other reasons. The problem hasn’t even happened yet! But I am just sad about the potential.

    I am equally perturbed by the idea that she might apply but there’s a better candidate and I have to tell her she didn’t get the job…

    (This will be my first time supervising anyone outside of retail.)

    Could use a “there, there” or stories about how y’all got through this kind of thing if ya got em!

    1. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      Aw man I’m sorry to hear that. I had to stop being friends with someone for a similar reason and it just broke my heart. It’s hard, it sucks, it’s a loss that I hope you allow yourself to acknowledge and grieve and process.

      (we knew ours was temporary because we get moved around every few years but it was still really hard, because each day you miss your friend).

  68. Anonymous Educator*

    How do you all handle people who just Slack-DM you at work with like a “How are you?” or “Good morning” and don’t follow up with any kind of “I want to talk to you about…” or just go ahead and ask the question?

    Do you ignore it?

    Pretend they’re just making small talk and make small talk back?

    1. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      I hate this. Just get to the point already like this.

      Hi Anonymous, Do you have the July TPS report? Please send to me. Thx! -Cat

      Please do not do this:

      Hi
      Anonymous: Hi Wakeen
      How are you?
      Anonymous: Good, what I can help you with?
      Can I ask you for something?
      Anonymous: good, what I can help you with?
      Do you happen to know where the July TPS report is?
      Anonymous: Yes, it’s in the S-Folder
      On the X server?
      Anonymous: Yes
      Ok
      Anonymous: Let me know if you need anything else
      Ok, thank you

      It’s just so pointless.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        And it’s totally okay to have a pleasantry but also get to the point.

        “Good morning! I wanted to ask whether you have the July TPS report. Is that something you can send over?”

        Much better, in my opinion, than just:

        “Good morning!”

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      I usually cut to the point. Long term I’ve had some luck with retraining people too after enough of this:

      Hi Disney
      Hi Pluto, what can I help you with today?

      Or,
      How are you Disney?
      I’m good Pluto, what can I help you with today?

      Now I get from Pluto, “Hi Disney hope you are doing well do you have the TPS reports for last week?”

    3. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      I think people like this are trying to have an IM convo the same way they have in person convos.

      I like the redirect ideas you’ve gotten. You might be able to train them out of it or you could have a more direct discussion like “I’m not always in front of Slack so if you need something from me it’s much easier for me to get it to you if you put your whole request in at once, instead of waiting for me to say hi back”

    5. long commuter*

      My boss used to do this as a soft entry to see if I was around. so
      Him: “good morning”
      me: : ” good morning. What’s up?”
      Him:

  69. Potatoes gonna potate*

    I hope this is OK to ask here in the work thread?

    Anyone else with ADHD/ADD/Executive dysfunction issues….how does your workplace accommodate you? How do they view this? Finally, what tools, supplies etc help you stay on track at work? 

    I’m managing mine with therapy and medicine but I thought this might be a helpful topic for most people. I’m not exactly keeping mine a secret, I’ve mentioned it here and there, but IME it’s one of those things that people tend to be flippant or casual about it.

    1. RayRay and the Beast*

      hi!
      accommodations: none but I haven’t asked.
      how do I cope: late diagnosed so had been working on workarounds and coping methods all my life anyway.
      – i build in extra deadlines
      – I put ALL the reminders on my calendar
      but most importantly:
      – found a new job that will give me ALL of the flexibility (yay!)
      – accepted/learned to recognise that a bad brain day is just a bad brain day and usually there’s no point in trying to force it. I know I make up for those in work quality, level of performance, and on hyperfocus days.

      1. RayRay and the Beast*

        I should also add: I used to manage by some very unhealthy selftalk and shame and anxiety but I am unlearning that.

    2. constant_craving*

      I don’t have (haven’t requested) any accommodations. The best thing I’ve found is keeping a very up-to-date to-do list. If I’m talking with someone and they mention something that needs to be done, I will ask them to pause while I add the thing to my to-do list. I set aside time at the beginning of every week to make sure each day has a to-do list with a manageable amount of stuff and I continue to update and move stuff during the week as needed. I have been having a lot of success with this since starting to use the (free version of) Todoist. I use it for everything- home life, etc.- and find that also helps me stay focused on work because I’m not trying to mentally track other things.

      Depending on what I need to work on, sometimes that’s enough. Sometimes I have to use the Pomodoro method to make sure I’m working on what I should when I should. I will also give myself blanket bans from things that are distracting so I don’t have to try to moderate my use.

    3. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      They don’t, they probably think it’s weird I’m bad at work, headphones, a revolving list of organization apps, a work journal

      1. MaryB*

        I second using Todoist for my to-do list. I have it on my work computer and phone and my personal computer and phone. That way, no matter where I am when I think of something, there’s minimal friction to getting it written down. I have separate projects for work and home so that I’m not distracted by one when I’m trying to focus on the other, but if I remember that I need to pick up my laundry while I’m at work, I can still add it to my Home list.

        I also use a paper planner. I think it makes me *look* more organized and that’s a good start. That way, when I inevitably forget something, my boss can tell that I’m trying. It’s also good for keeping track of my original intentions for the day vs. what actually gets done. If I planned 6 tasks from Todoist and then I don’t get any of them done because other things came up, it can feel defeating. Writing down the 10 other things I did and checking them off makes me feel better about having to reschedule my planned work.

        I’ve been using the Full Focus planner lately. It’s a bit pricey (maybe work would pay as an accommodation?) but the one page per day really helps me. I get so overwhelmed looking at a week’s worth of tasks. Especially if I plan out the week and then have to redistribute tasks due to other things coming up. Then it gets messy and more overwhelming, so I just keep it closed, which of course makes it useless. This lets me take things one day at a time. I only pre-write in hard due dates. Everything else I plan the evening before or morning of.

        These two tools have been working really well for me in tandem for now, but I also think it’s key to accept that certain things can stop working randomly, and you’ll need to regularly readjust your coping methods and/or accommodations.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I have never disclosed. I have read all kinds of potential accommodations and can’t envision how any of them would help me in my role, or how anyone but me could implement them for me.

      Fortunately, I have always been in roles where the emphasis was on results rather than micromanaging the process, so I can use whatever processes suit me most of the time.

      The supports that actually help (like heavy reliance on outlook reminders, using a GTD-style inbox setup, task batching to suit my diurnal rhythm, etc) are all things I do for myself.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        Right now my role is similar – results based so I can do whatever it takes to make sure things get done.

        Whats GTD inbox? Todoist sounds like something I can look into

        1. RagingADHD*

          GTD = Getting Things Done, a rather old-school process for triaging your inbox so you can separate out next actions from things that need follow up, project – based tasks, reference material, etc.

    5. Turingtested*

      I’m a manager who’s developed accommodations with a direct report. We have a standing meeting an hour before start time to help them get to work on time. Adjusted their start time. Fine to take more breaks and work longer hours. Grace with start times. Daily chat about work and priorities. High level tracking of all projects with clear timelines, easy to fill out.

  70. AnonForThis*

    In my job I work directly with the public (lets say I grant permits for llama groomers and make sure they have the right kind of insurance and facilityto groom llamas) and like many we’ve had a rise in harassment, threats, and improper behavior. Our workplace recently announced they’re giving us a seminar on deescalation and methods of dealing with harassment.

    Honestly as someone who has been on the receiving end of these threats, this just makes me frustrated. It implies there was some way I could have stopped the worst situations and that it’s my own fault for being upset when someone wrote me an email threatening not only me, but my family. I kept reporting these issues and asking for help and nothing was done for months. I have a whole record of me initially sending very polite, patient emails explaining she needed to show she had the right kind of llama insurance and how to get the insurance. I stopped responding after she made threats.

    So without policies to actually stop harassment and protect employees the idea that we are responsible for deescalating unreasonable people or need to take deep breaths or whatever just makes me even more frustrated. It’s like the onus is just on us. They STILL haven’t banned this person from filing llama permitting requests (each one getting rejected because she still hasn’t met the requirements), despite having the explicit power to do so and even though she used the filing system to harass people, putting expletive ridden rants in her description of her llama business.

    I don’t know if I’m really asking for advice or just venting.

    1. Warrior Princess Xena*

      We just had a disability awareness meeting/training and it left me with kinda the same bad vibe. The topic of the meeting was that we should be comfortable sharing when we are disabled because then it gives other people space to open up about their own disabilities, leading to a better environment. OK. Except that the things people were describing as ‘bad work environments’ were things that were objectively terrible behavior – yelling at people, being impatient with someone who wasn’t moving quickly enough, things like that. Full disclosure, I’m not physically disabled (unless you count my glasses), but it gave me bad vibes. I feel like the onus should be on people to not be complete jerks, rather than having the first step in a workplace be the vulnerable person admitting their vulnerability.

      I’m sorry, I have no good advice to you, except that I think you’re right in that we should make sure our workplaces are already doing something before making all of the most vulnerable people do the brunt of the labor.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Maybe it’s context or experience with the phrase, but my association with “deescalation” is that it is a safety measure to get you *out* of a bad situation, rather than blaming you for there being a bad situation in the first place.

      But a lot will depend on how this seminar actually goes. Hoping for the best.

    3. goddessoftransitory*

      I’m with you, 100%. I get the reasoning behind de-escalation and all, but as you say, it puts all the responsibility on us (worker wise) and none on the customer/client, and all it does is signal to them that they can be as rude, threatening, or unreasonable as they like because we’re in charge of calming them down.

      And don’t tell me most of these types don’t know EXACTLY what they’re doing. They know perfectly well behavior that used to get someone banned or even spoken to by the cops is now tolerated far, far too often.

    4. juneybug*

      What a terrible work situation! Wonder if your state has protection in place and your agency is not enforcing it?
      A good article about what you and can’t do as a state employee/employer -https://canons.sog.unc.edu/2022/07/dealing-with-harassment-and-threats-towards-local-government-officials-and-employees/
      Good luck and stay safe!!

  71. xx*

    We just had our DEI/harassment training and it went pretty smoothly – except for the part where the trainer told us that “religion should always be avoided at work.” I work in a church! Avoiding religion would be pretty difficult.

    Now I wonder if the company that provided the training just didn’t tell the trainer who we were, or if they had a set script they weren’t allowed to deviate from.

    1. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      Wow that’s super unhelpful. I’d think that good harassment training for a church should address how to be (and meet the mission of) a religious organization while also being appropriate and inclusive! That actually feels like an interesting needle to thread.

    3. Head sheep counter*

      Does working in a church necessarily mean you have to belong to that church? I don’t know what roles would be available in a church that aren’t related to the church but if it were say a secondary function such as a school… then I think it might actually be appropriate to train not proselytizing? If the job is all ministry all the time… then yes someone failed to inform the training company.

      1. I'm Just Here For The Cats!!*

        It’s one thing not to proselyte but saying “religion should always be avoided at work.” is above board. you can say that you are observing a holiday or whatever. In the example you gave of the school, those schools have religious studies and religion plays a factor into many different classes. So to say to a church to not talk about religion is tone deaf. Either the speaker didnt know who they were talking too, which is problematic, or they have a boiler plate training and slipped up.

      2. Mill Miker*

        Who said anything about proselytizing? Even if you’re doing admin or maintenance or something at a church, the holidays, practices, beliefs etc. are going to form part of the work environment.

    4. I'm Just Here For The Cats!!*

      Did no one say anything? I’m thinking 2 things could be going on here. Either this trainer had no idea who they were talking to, or they are used to working with corporations and such said the last part automatically, not thinking they were talking to a church.

      1. xx*

        No one said anything in the moment, but I also don’t know if anyone else brought it up to them (the trainer or the company) afterwards. I think everyone just thought it was kind of funny.

  72. Toxic work place*

    Partner knows he doesn’t fit in with his employer, but is trying to determine how much is the employer and how much is him?

    My partner has been at the same employer for almost 15 years. I would say it’s a very toxic place to be, but my husband has gotten so used to it and people who act a certain way, and he seriously doesn’t know what’s acceptable and what isn’t anymore. For example, the CEO asked my partner what our older son was doing (he’s 20) and my partner answered that he is going to community college to figure out what he wants to do. He then asked, “is your other son at least motivated?” (um, what?). For context, his son went to undergrad at Georgetown and is going for an advanced degree at another Ivy. We were at a company event last night and the CEO was walking around, saw us sitting by ourselves (another couple had just left and we hadn’t gotten up yet to move around and socialize more) and said, “oh, it’s Ma and Pa Kettle”. I had to look it up-apparently it was a tv show and they were country bumpkins. It just makes my partner really second guess himself even though we know the CEO is an ass.

    Another thing about this company is that if you don’t look fit, you will never get hired or promoted. If you do get hired, you are most definitely not in a public facing role. There were a couple of men in the organization who were promoted to VP roles once they lost weight. It was not a coincidence because a comment was made about an external applicant who was overweight about his appearance and that he wouldn’t have any fire in him for the job. My partner was in the fit category when he got hired, but due to COVID and work stress with various bosses, he is now significantly overweight. His current boss is great, but his previous bosses either no longer work there or were given promotions so they don’t directly supervise anyone because of how horrible they were to their direct employees. The CEO apologized to one employee who had the same boss and had her and her husband over to his house for dinner to apologize and make amends, but my partner received no such apology or acknowledgment.

    It’s really starting to mess with my partner’s sense of reality about the work environment. Upper management does nothing and takes no action against poor behavior as long as metrics are being met. I’m not sure if he’s being gaslighted so he leaves and they don’t have to fire him. He has exceeded his metrics every year, so they can’t/won’t fire him but they can sure make him feel like he’s an awful human being which they do. Our youngest will be a senior in high school, and we don’t really want to leave the area, but we will likely be looking to move once he graduates.

    I totally understand company culture and some people fit and some don’t, but this is like the mean girls club in middle school with very hands-off management that I think at the end of the day my partner still wants to be liked by. I don’t know how to help them stay sane with a dose of reality until he can leave the company. I also feel like if he applies for a job elsewhere, management there would call management at my partner’s job and he would get tanked. (It’s a small industry.)

    Any advice out there for how to get partner through until he can get out? And for me? Partner will tell me things and I think he’s got to be exaggerating and then I’ll see and hear things first hand and realize he’s right.

    1. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      “how much is the employer and how much is him?”

      It’s 100% the employer and 0% him.

      Those comments are so wildly off base that it’s easy to try to see if YOU are the one who messed up somehow, because why would someone treat you that way if you didn’t deserve it somehow?

      But nope. Being fit isn’t a job requirement. Those comments about community college – what??? That’s a smart decision to keep total 4-year college costs down or learn a trade and any number of other reasons.

      The company is so wildly off base.

      I hope your partner applies for other jobs and runs and never looks back.

    2. Warrior Princess Xena*

      I audibly gasped. This is ABSOLUTELY 100% on your partner’s company. Is there any way he can interact with other people from the industry to know if the whole industry is full of bees or just your company? Conferences, seminar, something like that? I feel like it’s possible that all the other companies hear about this one and go “Oh, THEM” and any call from your partner’s management would be completely ignored. But it’s also possible that he may have to move to a different industry.

      But yeah. Bees. All the bees wearing marching-band banana suits and twirling red flag batons.

    3. goddessoftransitory*

      The sooner your partner leaves this snake pit party in a dumpster the better.

      This kind of toxic garbage feeds on itself, and they need people like your husband to victimize while his actual work is what holds the place together. They won’t get better, there is nothing he can do to make them “like” him.

  73. Things*

    Is it concerning if I’m an intern in my field, transportation, working at a city Department of Transportation, and realizing that people like me do not work in this field, or for this city?

    There’s three issues. First is I can’t drive, and I’m noticing even the public transit people here typically drive to work, and even though we manage city owned bus lines, we do not use them. Transportation Planners here have to have a driver’s license, actually, which I cannot ever obtain, so I have to leave after my internship no matter what. Actually it is disturbing how many public transit agencies require planners working out of city halls to have driver’s licenses, and I feel like my advisors and mentors were irresponsible in how they kept telling me this wouldn’t be a problem for getting a job. Turns out it is, massively so.

    But another concern is, people here are a higher social class than I am, and I didn’t realize how massively uncomfortable it would make everyone. I just am not a culture fit at all, and it feels wrong to be in this environment that’s just so wealthy. I don’t like the feeling, and I feel like I’m seen as inappropriately low class and unrefined, because of things like wearing cheap slacks and a cheap polo instead of designer clothes, being obese, and having a lower class accent.

    Finally, because I’m Autistic, I’m socially awkward, and I’m trying my best to just shut my mouth and be invisible, but if I am engaged in conversation at, say, a lunch, I’m clearly just too socially awkward to be an appropriate culture fit for the office, and it is very obvious the team would enjoy their lunch much more if I were not present. Which I totally understand, nobody wants to work around Autistic people, we kind of suck, but I still need to have a career and make money to support myself.

    I’m a graduate student in Urban Planning, I’ve dumped a lot of myself into this degree, and I feel like I’ve been slapped across the face with the fact that I have no place in this field, and I need to go elsewhere. I haven’t even started my actual career, and I’m already in a dead end, burnt out, and demotivated. So now what?

    1. Former Transit Intern*

      This may be a long-shot, but can you apply to intern at the Volpe Center next summer? Volpe is part of the U. S. Department of Transportation. I interned there one summer a few years ago. That internship was my only experience with Urban Planning/Transportation Planning. Half or more than half of Volpe employees commute on public transit or by bicycle. I don’t think anyone there wore designer clothes.

      I don’t know where you are, but my guess is that outside of NYC, Boston, Washington D. C., Chicago and maybe a few other cities, employees of most other DOTs drive to work. Demoralizing by not surprising to me that that’s the case where you are.

    2. Reba*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with these issues! It sounds demoralizing.

      Are you open / able to move to other places after your degree? I’m wondering if this is a culture problem across the field of planning (I know nothing about it) or more of a problem with this particular agency and group of people being non-inclusive. Obviously, from your post I don’t know the whole scope of your experiences but I think you may be overdoing it to go from “not meshing with one bunch of jerks” to “no place in entire field.”

      (Listen, I work in a quasi-government workplace and there is no such thing as *too* socially awkward to work here, it’s almost a requirement)

    3. Irish Teacher*

      While you shouldn’t feel you have to if it’s making you feel unwelcome, you sound like the sort of person Urban Planning could really do with. It definitely needs people who actually use public transport involved. If people don’t use it, they are very likely to underestimate the need for it and likely to forget to plan for it.

      And it is also important to consider people from “lower” socio-economic backgrounds who are more likely to have a good understanding of things like why you shouldn’t build large social housing estates at the edge of a city with little to no amenities within them or build huge towers when many of the people likely to be living in them are elderly or disabled.

      People who use public transport, those with disabilities and those from poorer backgrounds are definitely needed in Urban Planning.

      Again, this is not to say you should feel an obligation to continue with it if it is making you unhappy, but rather to say the problem is with them and they should value your input.

      I’m also going to push back gently on the idea that autistic people “kind of suck” and that nobody wants to work around them. I may or may not be autistic (certainly have traits) and there is an autism class in the school I teach in. Virtually, all the staff are in agreement that it is great to have the autism class as those students tend to be the politest, the best behaved and often the highest achieving in the school. And I know the colleagues I work most closely with find my obsessiveness and detail-orientation useful. I joke that they “keep me around for obsessing purposes,” by which I basically mean to research stuff.

    4. Somehow_I_Manage*

      I think you may just be in the wrong city. You might be happier in a large metro area. I have consulted for several transit and planning organizations in large cities that share your values, and make explicit efforts to hire staff that reflect the communities they serve.

      Also, you may be more excited to work for a “transit” or light rail agency as opposed to a DOT that encompasses all the transportation modes. My fingers are crossed that you’re just in the wrong spot, not the wrong career.

    5. EMP*

      This sounds like a bad fit for you, but it also sounds like most of it is a product of this specific department and I don’t think it applies to urban planning as a whole. I know a couple people working in the private sector in urban planning and it sounds like a totally different vibe. There’s also non profits, other government agencies, and different cities that will have different attitudes and cultures compared to where you are now.

      If you have access to mental health services, I would also suggest talking to someone about feeling so demotivated and burned out by a single internship. It does sound like a rough time, but it also sounds like you’re taking it as a lot more predictive of the rest of your life than it really is.

    6. OtterB*

      I agree with the other commenters that the field really needs people with backgrounds other than higher social class and designer dressed. And that people with autism do not suck. (Well, some percent do. But some percent of everyone does.) It does sound like you might do better to find a different role in the field, not because you don’t have the ability to do what you’re interning in, but because you are clearly very unhappy with it.

      Here are a couple of ways you might get more information. These are possibilities, not requirements, so if they don’t seem relevant, disregard them.

      First, you mentioned advisors/mentors who had told you that not driving was not a problem. If you are still in touch with any of them, I’d suggest going back or emailing and telling them that you’re finding it a problem, and was there a different role they were thinking of? I mean, they could be out of touch, but they also could be aware of things you aren’t.

      Second, is there a professional group for people in your field? If so, join if you can (student memberships are often inexpensive) and look for email lists or discussion boards. Then ask there about other kinds of jobs that people with your training might take. You might also look at jobs posted on boards like Idealist, which is mostly for nonprofit work, and see if there’s anything there that seems interesting. Your goal in this is to broaden your sense of opportunities beyond “Transportation planners in a city department.”

      Third, do you have a secondary interest or a hobby that might mesh with the urban planning in some way? I’m thinking of a friend of my husband’s who was an undergraduate forestry major, got a master’s in urban planning, and did work in park planning. Maybe there’s some combination of things that would make a good fit for you.

      Good luck with it.

    7. Billiards15*

      I work in this field so I’ll provide my perspective.

      One of the reasons why I need to drive is that I have to visit sites. GIS and Google Streetview have been game changers, but there are many times where seeing it in the field is critical. This may not be necessary for every role, but it is for the majority that I’ve seen. People are actually encouraged to see it in the field and not make decisions just from their desk.

      Most Planning related positions have a heavy public interaction component since the decisions being made impact the public. While most of my communication is via email, they’re still phone calls, public meetings, etc that are an essential part of the position. I don’t know if you feel this will be a challenge. I’m basing this off your socially awkward comment, but it may be more of an issue with the work environment and not an issue dealing with the public, developers, consultants, etc.

      Your concern with your socioeconomic background could be beneficial. The big thing in the industry is transportation equity. It’s about focussing transportation resources on under serviced areas or under serviced facilities.

      You may want to focus on larger urban centres as the departments will be larger and the positions more specialized. They could have positions that don’t require field work and minimal public interaction. A good example is transportation modelling, where it’s mostly working with numbers and software.

      I’m in a smaller City, so my duties are more broad.

    8. Nightengale*

      I’m actually really sadly surprised that transportation planning isn’t full up with autistic people considering how many of us are into transit. Also considering how many of us don’t drive. Transportation planning desperately needs the perspective of people who don’t drive, autistic/disabled people and people of all incomes.

      I’m autistic, I work all day with autistic children and most of my friends are autistic. So I definitely don’t think autistic people suck or that it sucks to work with us. There is a lot of evidence that autistic people socialize and communicate differently and the problem is the interaction between autistic and non-autistic people. Unfortunately when interactions do not go well, the autistic person is usually blamed. There is a lot of research on this called the Double Empathy problem (first described by autistic researcher Damian Milton.

      I really hope you land somewhere you are valued as part of the team and what you can bring – whether that is in this field or a related one or somewhere else entirely.

  74. handfulofbees*

    looking for resources for dealing with online hate speech directed at an organization I’m part of. used to dealing with it myself (queer and Jewish), but dealing with it on an organizational level is new to me. any tips on developing a policy and how to help people internally cope (this is new to many folks there). cheers!

    1. pally*

      Wow- I’m sorry this is something, you (or anyone else) has experience with.

      Not sure if this is helpful, but if I worked at said organization, and encountered the hate speech, I’d want guidelines on what to do and not do about it. Such as:

      Never engage.
      Or
      Do not respond. Delete the missive ASAP.
      Or
      Do not engage. Immediately forward the entire missive to xx department along with a narrative on where you came across the missive (i.e. posted on our website, at xx blog, etc.).
      Or
      Reach out and direct the person to xxx email for a response.

      (that last one is probably not a good idea. Just trying to list things the organization might issue as a guideline.)

      And, do you have someone folks can reach out to for support should they encounter hate speech? Maybe make contact info readily available for this resource? I would want to talk with someone just to get the emotions out and feel acknowledged and heard.

    2. Educator*

      There is a lot more of this being aimed at educational institutions these days, and our policy defines hate speech and makes it clear that the moment something crosses that line, we stop responding and engaging. If it is live, we say something like “That’s not language we use to discuss other people at [organization] so we need to end this now.” And hang up/walk away/call the next speaker. It’s actually really empowering to just not engage on those terms. Anything online gets ignored.

      And anything with a direct threat (specific action to specific individual or place) gets a police report. Good to have a paper trail even if you hope you never need it.

  75. Lyudie*

    I’m an instructional designer and I’m looking at new positions. This is a second career, I was a technical writer for many years then switched to this about five years ago. A lot of positions I’m seeing are asking about portfolios. I have a couple of things I could show from grad school (not great examples, really) but the training I’ve been creating for the last five years is only available to customers that pay for it (so I don’t think I can use it, though I don’t know that for sure…and I’m not sure I want to ask about it because I am not ready to let it be known that I am looking to leave). How have others gotten around this?

    1. csweb*

      I think it’s fine to show work you’ve done for paying customers! As far as I know, this is extremely common – Unless I’m wildly offbase about instructional dessign, I don’t think it’ll be different from showing a portfolio of writing samples (speaking as someone who collaborates with UX designers at work).

      If it helps, maybe remove any company’s identifiers from the visuals?

      1. ferrina*

        Definitely remove identifiers and any sort of data that uses competitive intelligence. I’ve used reports that had logos removed and data changed (but presentation kept the same). You can also create mock-ups that are similar to what you’ve created for clients.

      2. Lyudie*

        Since the bulk of the training is simulations of the actual software, removing identifiers isn’t really possible…although possibly exporting the training into Word documents and altering some things there could work.

  76. DisneyChannelThis*

    TW: ED, Diets

    Has anyone had good success at dodging meals at work? The department is very food motivated. People leaving, people joining, birthdays, all the holidays, etc. During the height of covid it was really nice to just be able to claim fear of shared food as a reason to skip (and they offered more grab and go style rather than catered sit downs). I need a new go to excuse to not be eating. (I am aware of the loss of networking by skipping, working on trying to have other opportunities for that).

    1. MissBliss*

      I think you could still use COVID as an explanation – “You know, ever since COVID, I’ve just lost my appetite for eating around a bunch of people. Thanks though!”

    2. ferrina*

      Have an errand you urgently need to run, or just so happen to step out to lunch 10 minutes before the event starts. Urgent projects or meetings that just-so-happen to be scheduled over the events can also work

    3. Alex*

      I think “I have some complicated dietary needs, but I’m happy to enjoy this [tea] [water] [presentation] without a snack!” works. Don’t go too much into detail and pivot away from the conversation as soon as you can.

      I’ve been on a diet myself and I’ve just been honest, “Oh, I’m trying to avoid treats right now for medical reasons, but thank you!” and people don’t really care much as long as I just say it breezily.

        1. Gathering Moss*

          If it helps, my boss has refused treats/cake/etc for the ten plus years she’s been with our company, and no one blinks. She’ll sit with us for the social aspects, or do her own thing, and it’s fine.
          I’m also insulin-dependent diabetic, and no-one’s given me any side eye for the things I do or don’t eat. Alex is right that tone makes a difference, I’ve found.

      2. I'm Just Here For The Cats!!*

        I agree with this. I’d add you might not even need an excuse. a polite no thank you or thanks not interested is going to be fine. you are probably overthinking this. Unless you know that someone will push food on you it will be ok to say no.

    4. Educator*

      For the sake of the professional connections, I would go, but have a drink in my hand. Preferably something that takes two hands, like a cup of tea with a spoon, or a water bottle with a screw-on lid. Then, if anyone comments on what you are not eating, gesture with your full hands and say “oh, I’m all set. Now tell me about…” It might help to frame these as “social times where some people eat” rather than “food events” to yourself.

  77. RMNPgirl*

    How do you negotiate salary for an internal promotion?

    I interviewed for a promotion at work and if I get an offer, I’m curious how to negotiate the salary. Most of the advice I’ve seen, including on here, is negotiating an external offer. I feel like the politics of negotiating internally are different.

    2. Educator*

      I’ve done this! It really is not that different from a normal negotiation, except you have stronger relationships and insight going in. When you get an offer, say how excited you are and what a good match you think it is for your skills. Then say, “Is there any flexibility with the salary? I was hoping for x.” Make sure x is just a little more than what other people at the same level are getting paid. Go a little lower or higher depending on what you know about the company’s financial situation. Then see how they respond. My company at the time came back with a number higher than the original offer and just a little lower than I asked for, so we both felt like we won.

    3. Random Academic Cog*

      Our internal promotions are capped at 15% except in special circumstances. I’ve managed to get more for some internal hires and promotions (personally and for my staff), but it’s a lot of work and sometimes the answer is still no.

  78. sam_i_am*

    I need to have a conversation with my boss about bigger-picture stuff, like room for growth in my role and professional development in general. Right now I just feel like I don’t have any forward momentum, and I’m not sure if there is any further I can go in my current position. He was pretty upfront that there’s a limit to position grade level on my current team, but I don’t know if I’ve reached it.

    Does anyone have advice for how to approach a topic like that without just being like “I need to grow or I’m leaving?” or otherwise venting frustration? Because I’m frustrated right now and would like to not have that frustration lead the conversation.

    I’m also curious how much goal-setting help I can expect from a boss now that I’ve reached a pretty senior level on my team. I feel thrown to the wolves on professional development, but is that expected?

    1. ferrina*

      First, if you are a senior level, expect to set your own goals. It’s pretty normal to expect senior level staff to look around and find areas of improvement and set tangible goals. I’ve set all my own goals for at least the last 5 years- I write my goals based on what I expect my role to accomplish in the next year, then bring it to my boss to gut-check the priorities and targets. Sometimes your goals will build off of team targets- in that case, you will need team targets first, but you can make a note of how that will impact your goals (“Goal here about revenue targets based on team goal”)

      For growth, this is a normal conversation to have with your boss. Come into it collaboratively. “Hi boss, I was thinking about where I could grow my skills from here, and I wanted to pick your brain. Where do you see this position growing? Are there additional responsibilities it might make sense for me to absorb?”
      If you have some ideas of where you can grow, that might help. I’ve had several bosses that had no idea how to grow the department, but when I was able to say “I’m kind of interested in seeing if I can develop an X program. Is that something that might be useful?”

      The goal is to treat this like a collaborative information session. You aren’t expecting your boss to have all the ideas, but you also defer to your boss as the decision maker. If your boss shuts down the conversation, you have your answer- there is no growth. If your gut says there is no growth, it’s okay to not demand verbal confirmation- sometimes the verbal confirmation signals to your boss that you’ll leave if you don’t get opportunities. If there doesn’t seem to be growth, quietly start looking. Run your job search at your own speed, and be picky. You can always stop your job search if things change at your current work.

      1. sam_i_am*

        Thanks! I think my issue with goal-setting right now is that my position has always been very reactive. I work on grant-funded research, so I’ve always grown new skills based on project needs, and, well, the projects we have just don’t have many interesting needs right now. So maybe the goal-setting conversation is partly about seeing if I can get some input on our grant applications. Our “team goals” are largely “get research done, papers written, and online dissemination tools done,” so I think lack of more nuanced team goals might be a problem.

        That framing for a growth conversation sounds great. I don’t even know if I would leave if there’s no room for growth; I just feel like I need to know whether there is or not so I can set my expectations accordingly. Regardless, though, it might be time to talk with some recruiters soon, although I want to give it a bit more time since my most recent promotion (part of all this thinking comes from the fact that it feels like my recent promotion might be the last one I can expect).

        1. Random Academic Cog*

          Don’t discount a lateral reclassification as an opportunity for additional growth where you are. I was able to identify a position in a related job family that could be justified for a current employee who was maxed. It was technically a lateral move, but the average pay under the new title was higher so it helped justify a solid raise. You can probably look up your job descriptions on the HR website to see if there are related titles that would help guide your next steps. And you might need to do the legwork and take it all to your PI with a pretty bow on top. They don’t often think about that stuff or know how to navigate it.

          1. sam_i_am*

            I need to poke around more on the HR website, but they don’t seem to provide info on different positions, especially when it comes to research positions. HR here is really, REALLY opaque, which sucks! The whole HR system is part of what irks me about my job, especially the HR within my school (not the university-wide HR).

            This did prompt me to look at what little information I can access about job classifications, and it looks like I’m “IT Engineer 3” and the positions go up to “IT Engineer 4”, so we’ll see if I/my PI can get more information from HR about what would qualify me for that position, and whether or not that’s a classification they would give me working on an individual research team as opposed to a center.

            1. Random Academic Cog*

              Good place to start. But if it requires stepping up your game a bit, see if there are any department-level projects/grants you might be able to participate in at 5 or 10% effort. Check into school or university-level roles. Maybe serving as an IACUC or IBC member can be spun into a new job duty (not super specific – something like “serves as subject matter expert at institutional level in support of research misson” to include any sort of committee work). There are lots of creative ways to explain things in a way that will meet HR expectations. Good luck!

  79. babylawyer*

    If I volunteer to come in on the weekend to help a senior partner out with a big upcoming deadline (doing this is beyond my pay grade, as I am just a summer associate, but I end up learning a lot and I like the partner I’m helping, so I’m happy to do it), do I still have to dress professionally? The office is on the casual side of business casual ordinarily, but I don’t know if the same standards apply on the weekend when it’ll just be the two of us in the office in crunch time.

    1. babylawyer*

      **Adding the caveat of it being a bajillion degrees out and I am running out of clean office dresses that work for the weather being what it is**

    2. ferrina*

      INAL, but depends on the partner and the firm. I’d air on the side of either dressing the same as on during the week or one step down. Since your office is usually casual business casual, I’d stick with that.

      1. Another Lawyer*

        +1 to this. I’ve seen most partners dressed casually on the weekends, even if they’re not casual during the week, but if you have a particularly formal partner this may not be true. A step down (something like jeans and a shirt) is probably fine, but the absolute safest is to keep your normal dress code.

    3. Rick Tq*

      My experience is no..

      Back in the 80’s I started work at an aerospace company and was told during the interview I was expected to wear at least a sport coat and tie, so that’s what everyone normally wore. The whole program had to work over a weekend to get a MAJOR proposal completed and there wasn’t a coat, tie, or pair of wingtips to be seen anywhere from the VP/Program Manager down to new guys like. We did see jeans and western boots galore. The next week the Associate VP observed how much work we got done even dressed down and the dress code was eventually relaxed down to business casual.

      I wouldn’t wear sweats or gym clothes but a step down from your normal attire would be fine.

    4. I'm Just Here For The Cats!!*

      Just ask the senior partner, especially if they don’t tell you. It would be different if you were working the weekend and seeing clients or something. But just ask.

      1. Angstrom*

        Senior partner may want to take you out for a meal as a thank-you, so you might not want to dress down too far.

  80. csweb*

    Need help on how to ask a tough/sensitive question during a job interview.

    I have a job interview early next week, for a role in the PR/communications team with a bad reputation. Like… Makes the news kind of bad. They get dinged on various things, whether it’s sustainability issues, being sued for copyright infringement, and other things. However, the role is interesting and I’m really tired of my current job.

    So my question is, how do I ask about their reputation and what they are doing about it? This goes beyond personal values – as it is in the PR team, I assume crisis comms will be somewhere in the job description.

    Any ideas would be very helpful!

    1. ferrina*

      “I would be remiss if I didn’t ask about some of the events that were recently in the news. Can you tell me a little bit about how you’ve taken steps to remediate this?”

      If they get defensive or tell you that it’s rude to ask, run. That means they aren’t remorseful and like to shift blame. Any half-intelligent hiring manager knows that’s a question that’s likely to be asked and should have a response ready (especially if you are interviewing with the PR team!)

    2. Princess Buttercup*

      I mean, if it’s Twitter (or… X, I guess now?), don’t do it.

      Otherwise, I agree with ferrina.

    3. Somehow_I_Manage*

      “how do I ask about their reputation and what they are doing about it?”

      Based on what you’ve shared, I’d be surprised if they didn’t directly bring it up, and ask for your feedback on how you could help :)

    4. linger*

      The two main possibilities here are:
      (i) current PR team is effective but needs expanding –> the truth is worse than the media reported, and you shouldn’t expect they can discuss specifics in an interview. Or
      (ii) PR team was set up for less intensive messaging/advertising work, so needs to replace staff lost as a result of recent media coverage –> you’re going to be thrown in the deep end, and they won’t discuss specifics in an interview.
      So I don’t think you can ask them about specifics of how crises are handled, because they’re most likely going to be asking for your responses to similar situations.
      But you could, and should, ask about the practical impact on the position workload: how predictable are the hours; is there time available to recover after intense bursts; how much time is spent on-call.

  81. BigMove*

    Has anyone taken leave while their spouse was out of the country for an extended period? I’m in the US and my husband will be deployed for much of next year. We have young children and not much of a social safety net where we are. Curious to hear others’ experiences in a similar situation. How did you approach your employer and was it a good idea in the long run?

    1. Panicked*

      Mil spouse of 15 years here. I’ve spent A LOT of time with my spouse gone. I have not taken extended leave, because I found that keeping a familiar routine worked best for me and my family. I didn’t want to move my child, her school, my job, all of our stuff, etc… for just 6-12 months.

      That being said, I know many milspo’s that have gone back home during deployment and it’s helped them feel secure and not as lonely. I think it’s much easier when your kids are young and aren’t established in your current area.

      If you decide to leave, talk to your employer. You may be able to take some time off with FMLA, depending on how long you’ve been there and how large the company is. Could you do your work remotely? If so, that’s an easy approach.

  82. Flames on the Side of My Face*

    Layoffs, layoffs, layoffs!! So many people I know in so many different fields have lost their jobs in the past few months. Three friends lost their jobs in major layoffs just today alone. Experts keep saying this isn’t a recession but it sure as hell feels like one is underway. Is it just me?

    1. JMR*

      For what it’s worth, I had a check-in with my financial planner earlier this week, and he is convinced a recession is coming and doing financial… stuff… accordingly.

      1. Prospect Gone Bad*

        Something weird is definitely going on that feels pre-recessiony. I follow earnings calls and the media and banks are going into absolute overdrive cherry picking any positive news, ignoring negative news, and applauding mediocre earnings. It reeks of them being desperate. I am getting paranoid because it’s a constant stream of “why housing isn’t a bubble” and random predictions about how earnings are going to go up based on something that may not happen. If the economy was truly strong, I feel like they could all be more based in reality and not constantly trying to tell us how everything is great.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      A recession is typically defined as a decline in GDP for two consecutive quarters. A recession can’t be defined until we are in one. The Bureau of Economic Analysis says that GDP grew 2.4% in Q2 of 2023, so we likely aren’t in a recession right now.

      The company I worked for in 2018 laid off ~10 people in my department and on my commute home that day the radio was talking about how the economy had just added a bunch of jobs and GDP growth was strong. It was a weird dissonance between the lay-offs and the macro level economic indicators. Which is to say, even when the overall economy is strong there are pocket of lay offs (depending on how certain industries and companies are doing).

      I’m not an economist and I don’t claim to know whether a recession is imminent or not.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        A recession is typically defined as a decline in GDP for two consecutive quarters.

        Point of information: This is incorrect.

        In the U.S., economists at the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) define when we are in (or were in) a recession. I assume other countries have similar groups of experts defining a recession.

        1. linger*

          If it makes you happier: two successive quarterly declines in (corrected) GDP is one of the more common metrics used by such groups to define a recession.

    3. Roland*

      I got laid off but the company is still hiring (and has made me a job offer… waste of their own severance money, what do I care). Idk about all fields but in tech it feels like companies are just making bad choices for vague “AI”-related reasons. But then I’m hardly an expert.

    4. Prospect Gone Bad*

      Not just you. I’m seeing weird activity in the housing market (I guess that’s for a Saturday thread?) that is reminiscent of late-stage FOMO/pre-recession desperateness on the part of “sellers.”

      Not many layoffs in my circles (but half of my family and friends are blue collar and were unaffected by 2008) BUT no one is able to job hop or even get interviews anymore.

    5. saskia*

      GDP went up in the U.S. recently, no? And unemployment is very low, lowest it’s been since 1969. Layoffs haven’t been connected to company profits for decades at this point. Companies are constantly re-strategizing and looking for growth, not just profitability. If they’re not growing, in many wealthy investors’ minds, the company is dead. This may be one reason for the recent layoffs.

      1. Roland*

        Or sometimes, they’re still growing but not fast enough… Feels very unsustainable and unhealthy.

    6. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I think of it a bit like the popular saying about statistics, which is something like, statistics are meaningless to an individual.

      So, what the broader economy is doing matters less to me (and you) than what is happening in my personal orbit.

      No explanations, just sympathy :/

  83. thisiska*

    I could use some job-changing advice. I recently left my job of 3.5 years after completing a large project (I am a construction project manager). I left because after a meeting to discuss my future (prospects for promotion, projects to follow the big project that was almost finished) with our department director, I left knowing that he didn’t have any intention of promoting me or putting me on worthwhile projects. Essentially, he didn’t value me at the level I thought he should, so I left for a different position. Now, 2 months into the new job I am unhappy. I haven’t job-hopped before, but this just isn’t the right fit. It’s looking likely that I may have 2 job offers coming soon. The first is to move to a large general contractor in a design management role (guiding large design-build teams through the design part of the project and staying involved through construction to ensure design intent is followed), which is a role I would excel in. The second is returning to my old company, but going to the IT department to manage the team that handles low voltage and IT implementation for construction projects. I’m not terribly interested in the IT side of things, but it’s a management position, and I’ve long wanted to get into management. Plus, I liked a lot of things about the old company, I just left because of my department’s leadership.

    So what would you do? The more fun job that you have more experience in but is an individual contributor role, or the management position in an area of less interest and comfort? Pay will likely be similar, but the IT management role could pay more.

    1. Somehow_I_Manage*

      I’d be more interested in the GC role- it would allow you to make a lot of connections, learn a lot, and likely offers high growth potential. The connections alone will make your resume really powerful in the future. It also seems more like the job you were hoping to have when you first left your construction PM job.

      I’d suspect it’s also more stressful and will have more bad days. But I think it puts you on a path with lots of different and exciting opportunities if you outgrow it.

    2. long commuter*

      Given the IT role is your old company, and it seems your frustration with the old company has to do with the particular manager you were under – is there a way to probe the IT manager (or person above you) to explicitly look for career progression type things. “If I spend 3 years as IT manager, what is next steps? What do I have to achieve to be considered for next steps? What if the person currently there doesn’t move?”. Specifically ask a lot of questions about growth. I’d do that for the indiv contrib role as well. “If I spend 3 years as an IC, what does moving to management look like? What accomplishments are you looking for to show someone is ready for next steps?”

    3. Not the Answer Man anymore*

      I’d go for the Design Management role and stay away from the IT-adjacent role at your old company.

      The way you describe that position the IT department manages low voltage and networking/telecom wiring installations just because they do that for the company’s buildings. That makes IT job neither fish nor fowl. You wouldn’t be managing IT operational things (that you aren’t interested in) which means you aren’t on a track for promotions in that department, you would be a sub-project manager without any recognition from that function in the company.

    4. Sherm*

      If you are in high demand, possibly neither? As great as Job #1 sounds, if you’re really looking to get into management, then it doesn’t sound like the right fit. Job #2 is sounding a bit blah. Do you feel confident that you could keep looking and find a better management job?

  84. Feline*

    I’m failing out of a PIP. I’ve never been a substandard employee, and this is hard to handle. But it’s the fallout of some health issues a while back that have lingering effects (likelong covid, but it happens to be something different)

    After giving it a lot of thought, it’s a major wake-up call that I need to change careers. Not what I had been planning, but my chosen career path isn’t viable for me now if I can’t be a good performer. How do I spin this? I’m basically thinking of returning to my career roots from 25 years ago. Do I extend my resume back that far to show I’ve got experience?

    1. ferrina*

      Sending you lots of hugs, if you want them. I’ve been there, and it’s the worst.

      First, know that this is a reflection of the disease, not you. That can be hard to internalize. On some level we know it’s true, but some treacherous part of our brain keeps claiming we could have tried harder. No. This is how diseases work- they significantly impact our lives. This is not a reflection of you.

      If you haven’t yet communicated with your employer, let them know about the disease. If it makes sense in your situation, you can use it for damage control. “I know that with the symptoms of X, it’s impacted how I perform this role. It seems like this isn’t working well on your end either- would it make sense to talk about next steps?” See if you can get them to agree to a lay-off and have some kind of agreement on what they tell future reference checkers.

      Yes, you can put 25-year-old experience on your resume, but be aware that it won’t weigh as much as more recent experience. I know someone who was in their 30s and got a job based on volunteer experience they did in high school. I’d cast a wide net in the job search and look at maybe non-profits– since they tend to pay below market rates, they can also be more flexible in the kind of experience they look at.

      Also, re-evaluate this:
      I can’t be a good performer. How do I spin this?
      That’s not what’s happening here. There’s nothing to spin. What’s happening is that you got stuck with a health condition that changed how you are able to function. You are doing your best with your new body, but it’s really different from what you were able to do with your old body. If you were a singer that was struck mute, that doesn’t mean you can’t perform. It means that you can’t perform in the same way as you used to. You might need to give up your goal of going to the International Yodeling Championship, but that doesn’t mean you could never dance or being a judge on a talent show. And you wouldn’t spin the situation- you’d just say it outright. “My body isn’t doing what I want. I’m doing all I can to get it to where I want, but this is what I’m currently working with. Here is what I can succeed at and what will bring me joy with my current situation.”

      Good luck with your job search!

      1. ABC123*

        If the root cause of this is the ongoing illness, shouldn’t that be covered by the ADA or some similar legislation? Does your company know your performance issues are caused by the illness, are they willing to give any kind of accommodations for that?

        1. Feline*

          I tried to approach them about this. I got back from my supervisor, “Well, as I got older, my memory got bad, too. I have to try harder.”

          It’s a smallish company that prides itself on never having had a RIF, but they’re quite willing to fire at the drop of an at-will employment state hat. I can try to negotiate a graceful exit, but it’s not going to include a layoff.

          Thanks to both of you for your good wishes, and ferrina, your words of wisdom meant enough that I need to fetch a new box of kleenex for my desk. Thanks.

  85. Scriber*

    I got an interview for what would’ve been my dream job, topic area-wise, pay great….but. They do not offer PTO, it’s hourly, but it’s a leadership position with a famous agency that pays six figures. They do offer medical, dental, 401k after 6mos on the job. It might be my only foot in the door in this industry though. Thoughts? Current job offers amazing benefits and 401k and I have a toddler. But there’s zero chance of doing said niche work at current job ever, and even my boss asked around! What would you do?

    1. Alex*

      I’ve never heard of a full time leadership position that offers absolutely no vacation time! That’s ridiculous.

      Are you more worried about this fact meaning that means you can never be away from the job? That would be something I’d ask about. If no PTO, do they allow you to take time away without pay? If the pay is much greater, it might not be much of a concern, unless they truly mean you are never allowed a day off ever.

    2. Somehow_I_Manage*

      Based on the way you described it, I think it’s more a question of whether you’re in a place finance-wise, insurance-wise, and family wise to make it work. There’s no doubt it seems like where you’d like to be if you can make it happen.

    3. ferrina*

      An hourly leadership position? That does not compute. Every leadership position I’ve seen has deliberately been an exempt role, because those are the folks that will need to put everything into the company if things start going wrong. The whole point is you stay until the job is done and the strategy is sound, whether that’s after 6 hours or after 60. You don’t limit your leader’s hours.

      1. I'm Just Here For The Cats!!*

        That can actually very depending on the company. for example, someplace i worked the supervisors were made hourly because of some state change about overtime.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      Are you allowed to take unpaid time off at this company? And is the hourly rate good enough for you to afford two weeks or so of unpaid time off? If so, maybe take the offer. I personally wouldn’t, because I would much rather work an OK job with 3 weeks of (paid) vacation than work a stellar job with no paid time off.

      Also, don’t forget to factor in any unpaid time off you’ll need to take for sickness (your own and maybe also your toddler’s).

      1. WellRed*

        This is where I land. I’d worry there are some other dysfunctions at this place because no PTO is far from the norm.

    5. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Hourly paid, no PTO, no health insurance or pension contribution for the 1st 6 months ….
      doesn’t sound like a leadership or senior position anywhere, more like entry level in a sweatshop.

  86. Just a Minion*

    I’m applying for a nonprofit position that aligns with my degree. Its an exciting position that will enable me to grow in a different way. However, I’ve worked for medium and large companies my entire career. I’m used to writing corporate cover letters. A friend who works at this organization said I need to show my personality and what inspires me about the position. I’m finding this to be a difficult mental shift.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Alison has tons of cover letter advice. Go through it. Your “corporate cover letter” was probably one of the bad cover letters that Alison references (sorry, but likely true), so you don’t need to show your personality and what inspires you, you need to write a good cover letter. Which will get you to the same place.

    2. anywhere but here*

      One mindset shift that can be helpful is to think of how you would explain to a friend 1) why you want the job and 2) why you think you would be good at it. You can do a fairly decent cover letter that way, and then tweak it a bit at the end so you sound less casual (but still human).

  87. Whyamihere*

    My company just fire two valued employees in our department. An incident happened and of course we are not allowed the detail but it has killed morale. The other person involved is the favorite so now the entire team is scared, especially because the one person involved is the the most inclusive manager we had. The favorite also tried to get me fired and I am being put on a project with her and she tries to act like my manager. Management have still not address it at all, and I mean who do we report to now as the only manager we have left is always busy so issues are being put to the side.
    If they make the favorite a manager there will be a mass exodus because she is only the favorite of management. She is fine but not manager material. And rumors are running rampant .
    I have already been brushing up on my resume but more I am looking for the right interview answer for why I am leaving. I literally can not lie so I want to find the right corporate appropriate truth.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Assuming you’ve been there for a while, “it’s time for a change of pace/advancement/different focus/etc”. It’s not a lie, its just a different truth.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      “There aren’t opportunities for growth at [current company]” and then pivot to something positive that caught your eye in the job ad for the position you are applying to. This is not a lie–there are no opportunities for you at a company where the favorite employee tried to get you fired.

      If you have been there for five or more years (or whatever a typical stay in your field is), a bland “ready for new challenges” is also an answer that will raise exactly zero eyebrows. Again, this is true. Your current challenges include trying not to get fired, and you don’t want that kind of challenge in your next job.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Agreeing with the suggestions above. If you haven’t been there long enough for it to be plausible, then swap in, “There has been some turnover which has me concerned about the future stability of the team. And I’m really excited that this role would give me the opportunity to…”

      And, when you get to ask questions, ask about the future direction of the team, company, role, etc.

      1. Whyamihere*

        I think this will be my answer. I have been there less the 2 years so this will be the most logical.

  88. Pharmgirl2012*

    A couple weeks back I asked for advice regarding a new employee John who reported me to HR for screaming at him (for the record I didn’t). We had previously discussed him not scheduling breaks during crunch time for business, he agreed, but then continued to take his breaks during this time. When I questioned him he argued with me, then reported me to HR. Several commenters brought up firing him, and Alison even jumped into the comments and suggested the same.

    Neither my boss or HR believe that I screamed at him but decided to keep him on, mainly because there was some miscommunication about the role and my boss felt that it was his fault in potentially misrepresenting the role. My boss has basically taken over all check ins and communication with John, and he has also moved him into a hybrid role.

    The other team he is working with had trouble training him (he questioned the trainer multiple time and then complained he wasn’t trained properly). Trainer has done this for years and hasn’t received any complaints previously.

    Now my boss is on extended leave, it’s my day off, and I heard from another team member that John got into a argument with another employee who was showing him an update to the system today. She was trying to explain how a certain function sometimes needed supervisor override, and supposedly he took offense to that. My coworker had to break up the argument.

    I’m at my wit’s end. My boss had my back but he’s on leave and I don’t really feel much support from HR. Any advice?

      1. Pharmgirl2012*

        She’s on vacation for another week, but I will talk to her when she’s back. Thanks!

    2. Rick Tq*

      How long is Boss on leave, and is GrandBoss aware of the drama around John? Can you get her support in firing John after this last outburst?

      Regardless I’d take more documentation on this new outburst to HR and see if they will support acting

      1. Pharmgirl2012*

        Unfortunately it’s 12 weeks starting this week – but will talk to grand boss when she is back from vacation.

    3. ferrina*

      Stay out of it. Your boss and HR need to solve this.

      It sounds like your boss deliberately removed you from working with John. Now it sounds like the organization is passing him around because no one likes working with him. Let him have his issues with everyone, redirect people who complain to talk to your boss (who it sounds like is John’s manager?) and grab some popcorn to watch the drama ensue.

      1. Pharmgirl2012*

        Unfortunately my boss is on fmla for 12 weeks, and officially I am still john’s supervisor (the other person he got in an argument with is also on the team I oversee).

        1. ferrina*

          Oh, that changes things!

          Loop in your grandboss and CC HR. Does Grandboss know about the situation? If not, inform them. It’s particularly tricky since John has already made an HR complaint against you. You want to CYA (cover your patootie) in a big way. Document everything.

          Have a meeting with your Grandboss to figure out a plan of action with John. Obviously John needs to be talked to, but are you the right person to do this? What does Grandboss want you to do if the situation escalates? Obviously everyone hopes it doesn’t, but plan for the worst hope for the best. You can also position it as “I’m not a manager and obviously don’t want to get anyone into a tough spot, so I want to make sure I’m crystal clear on this.” After your convo, make sure you document what you and Grandboss talked about. Partially as a CYA, partially as reference for later, and partially so you can share this with your boss when he gets back.

          I see that you commented that Grandboss is out for another week, but you can interrupt that if you need to. This is a rare instance where that is understandable.

    4. Somehow_I_Manage*

      Pharmgirl2021- what a huge pain. John is a prick.

      Document. Tell your boss immediately when they return. And tell your boss that either John is fired, or he needs to be formally removed from your team, because you cannot continue to be his official supervisor (in which you still receive complaints about him) if you have no tools to deal with his poor behavior.

  89. Diocletian Blobb*

    At what point do you listen to the voice that says you should be doing something more meaningful with your time? I’ve always been a proponent of “do what you’re good at, not necessarily what you love,” which led me to a reasonably successful career in marketing.

    However, as I get higher up and the clients get more demanding, I’m having trouble justifying to myself the amount of work that it takes to do something I consider basically useless to society. It gives me a real feeling of “wtf am I doing” when I spend multiple days tweaking somebody’s website to get it just right when there was nothing really wrong with it in the first place, or the product is something totally useless. I used to laugh this off with a blanket of cynical irony, but cynical irony is poor fuel for something you have to spend 8+ hours a day on. Sure, my hobbies and relationships and art give my life meaning, but I spend more time on work than all of those combined.

    Anyone else dealt with something like this, and what did you end up doing?

    1. I'm Just Here For The Cats!!*

      Could you look at different agencies that you might feel better about. Sounds like your in marketing for corporate companies. What if you did marketing for something you were loved? Like an animal rescue, or children’s hospital, or some other product that you don’t think is a waste.

      I think its one of those things where you either have to reason with yourself that this is what you do even though you don’t like it or find something else.

    2. Alex*

      I definitely can relate to this.

      I skilled up in something that interested me more, found a way to incorporate it a little into the job I already had, and then used those new skills and accompanying work accomplishment to pivot to a different kind of job that I enjoy a lot more and to me feels more meaningful.

      I won’t say it wasn’t hard-fought, and luckily for me there are a lot of transferrable skills from my old job to my new one (it was just a matter of presenting them the right way). But it can be done. The hardest part is figuring out what would feel meaningful to you.

    3. ThatGirl*

      Use your skills for good. There are plenty of companies out there trying to make the world a little better.

    4. Never Knew I Was a Dancer*

      I’ve been in similar places before. It helped a lot once I found roles that used those skills for a cause or organization I *did* believe in. Marketing (communications, PR, etc.) is a tool that can be used for positive and pro-social things too, though it might take some time to find an organization/project/cause that you can be enthusiastic enough about to use those skills for it in the long term.

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I’m in a similar situation. My 15+ career so far has been in a “do good” field, but in a “I’m good at this role” rather than a meaningful role.

      Honestly, it worked for the first 10 or so years. But I’m definitely looking to change directions and I’m using my current job to identify the overlap between what I’m good at, where I derive meaning, and the life I want to build.

      There are a couple of tools or frameworks that might be helpful:

      Designing Your Life or Designing Your Work Life by David J. Evans, Bill Burnett, Dave Evan

      The Zig Zag podcast’s last season

      How to Find Joy in Climate Action by Ayana Elizabeth Johnson (TED talk) (can be applied to other work, in my opinion)

  90. Not teenage but still ninja turtle*

    Does anyone have any tips on using your network to help someone else get a job?

    Our intern has been with us for almost a year, and has now graduated. He is looking for a full-time role, but we don’t have the budget. We’ve kept him on working hourly (yet still working close to 40-hour weeks) but still essentially as a temp with no benefits. His work is excellent, and he’s been getting lots of interviews, sometimes even making it through 6 or 7 rounds, but no actual offers.

    LinkedIn is great at telling me roles for me, but is there any way I can look for jobs or people in my network who may be hiring at his level? (I do realize that this is partially on him, but I’d like to help and see if there’s anything or anyone in my network that might benefit him.)

    1. ferrina*

      “Hey friends! Any change you are looking for an entry level person? My organization has a fantastic intern who is amazing at X, Y and Z. He’s just graduated and is looking for a full-time role. He’s interested in working in A. We’d love to offer him a full-time role, but unfortunately don’t have it in the budget. I’ve attached his resume for your review.

      I’m happy to put him in touch with you if you’re interested!
      Thanks,
      Not teenage but still ninja turtle”

      That’s it. Email to former coworkers or friends you know in roles that may be interested. Let him know that you are doing this (and make sure you have his approval), but also let him know that you can’t guarantee any success.

  91. Gatomon*

    Neurodivergent folks, what are you using to help you stay organized and on track with work?

    I just got formally diagnosed with ADHD and slow processing (wow I feel understood, y’all). One of the things I struggle with is staying organized and feeling like I know what I need to be doing, despite feeling like I dedicate an excessive amount of time to trying. I have a lot of projects that I juggle where I may not touch them for weeks or months between steps, and sometimes management changes priorities/details/plans in the meantime. If I don’t save that info somewhere, I probably won’t remember it. And yet there are also little things that must be done that I can easily forget and that WILL bite me spectacularly later, so I need to know I did them.

    I think I have two needs, and maybe they’re going to require different solutions:

    1) Something that is like a very simple to-do list for what I need to work on today – I have Todoist, but the more granular I get with it, the more it turns to “mush” when I look at it and I have no idea what I should actually be doing when. And it doesn’t seem good for extensive notes, only tasks. So I think I need to simplify here and pull it back to maybe something I just add tasks to each morning or whatever?

    2) Something that can be a “brain” that tracks what projects I have, what orders are associated with those projects and hold notes for them like, “the parts for Project X are in the lab,” or “the parts for Project Y are expected to ship 8/2 so I should confirm that date with the vendor,” or “I gave the parts to Jim for install in June, but I don’t know when he’ll have it done.” I really struggle with people reaching out on projects out of the blue and figuring out what they’re talking about and then what the status of that project was, and digging up all the disparate info in various systems or folders is a struggle for me. So something I can just open up and find all that data at a glance in would bring happy tears to my eyes.

    We have no project management resources and management is very hands off, so no help there, and I don’t know what software to ask them to buy to help me. Our projects are generally solo affairs, in the sense that I am the main person in my department who is working on Project X. I’m the de facto project manager. Project A is handled by Jim and I don’t know much about it other than: it’s happening. I don’t need any of the minutia from Project A in my life, and Jim doesn’t give a damn about whether I’ve done subtask Q for Project X yet, you know? This is strictly for me.

    The only other internal resources we have are the standard O365 suite with Sharepoint and Teams. I have tried and failed using OneNote (am I using it wrong?? I just can’t make it work for me beyond a messy data-dump) and MS To-Do (deleted my tasks once and I won’t trust it again) and MS Planner (mush effect) already. I tried making private Teams for myself, but that didn’t actually help, and I am BEC with that program anyway for other reasons, so I hated that. I am ready to throw $$$ ($$$$?) at the problem, honestly.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      How do you feel about color coding? Bullet journals were originally a ADHD helper before like cottage core adopted them and took over. Might be worth a try. I do like having 4 pens and keeping my to do list of each project in each color.

      I really like Kanban boards as a way of tracking (Hold, To Do, Doing, Done). They work better on paper or posterboard for me (movable post it note tasks!) than in Trello or excel etc. Ive seen giant whiteboard ones done with magnets. In a similar vein, I find easier to track stuff written down rather than another page inside a screen, if its a physical post it note, list, summary etc I can remember to do it better, plus the satisfaction of tossing the reminder post it notes.

      I also really like the 4 quadrant plot, y axis is urgent vs non-urgent, x axis is inprotant vs not important, sort your to do list, triage the urgent and important quadrant first, then important not urgent etc. Helps see what you should be focused on first.

      Pomodoro also works, don’t try to force focus for 3hrs when brain can’t. Break your projects into little 15-20min chunks then aim to do a chunk, then 10min to be distracted then when timer goes off back to next chunk.

      1. Gatomon*

        I love colors! But a piece of paper won’t contain things – I have >10 projects on my plate. Some of them are on hold so I guess I wouldn’t contain everything continuously, but if I’m not writing it down regularly, it’s definitely going to vanish.

        I like the idea of Kanban, but I’m not sure how to make them work. Do all projects go on one board, or is there a board per project? Unfortunately it would need to be virtual. I could turn a wall of my home office into a Kanban board, but I can’t take that with me, and I need some way to reference it when I’m in the office or in our lab.

        4-quadrant plot sounds helpful, I will give that a try for getting my priorities right. Importance and urgency are often conflated at my job.

        Breaking into chunks that small is hard for me, but I can give it another shot. Stopping often means mistakes are going to happen, even if I’m intentionally taking a break.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      OneNote sounds like it should be working for your #2 — Projects in tabs across the top, orders in each project in pages within the tab, and notes for each order on its page – but if it’s not working for you, it’s not. (I only say that because I bounced off OneNote a half dozen times before I figured out a way to make it work for me, and it’s still not quite as useful for me as it is for other folks but better than it was. For me the trick was to think of it as a 3-ring binder.)

      For #1, if you want to look at what you need to get done TODAY, you might look on Amazon or Etsy – my search term was “day organizer notepad” as a start – it’s a one-page form that you can put your today stuff all in one place, they have different sections, like a to-do list section, today’s calendar, today’s priorities, notes for tomorrow, whatever whatever. That’s your guide for the day, and then the last thing before you leave for the day is to move the “notes for tomorrow” to the next page on the notepad. (You could prepare more of tomorrow’s list the night before if you wanted to, or it could be a good way to get yourself in work mode in the morning.)

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Example link coming when approved. It’s a little busier than I personally would go for – I don’t need the gratitude or mood sections – but I was looking for one with more sections as an example rather than a very simple one :)

      3. Gatomon*

        I think I might’ve tried something like that with OneNote once? I have made, and abandoned, many a OneNote notebook over the years lol. I’ll mull it over; I think it was back in my customer teapot days when I had tried something like that and I haven’t returned to it since moving to internal teapot design (the teapot analogy falls flat…).

        I’m honestly skeptical of paper working, but maybe if it’s just the things I need to do today. I would like to change the gratitude section to a grumpiness section :P

    3. Mill Miker*

      For 1, I’d totally stick with pad of paper or a whiteboard: something you can keep handy on your desk or on the wall nearby, and that very much doesn’t allow you to give into the temptation to add more detail. Also: It’s intentionally ephemeral. No history of past day’s lists, etc. If something is going to hang out on the list for weeks, it’s because you’ve manually copied it every day. That’s annoying, but it helps avoid an ever-growing list of “things to do today”.

      For 2: It sounds like you’re trying to find a tool to give you everything at a glance, but avoid the “mush” effect. I don’t think that’s realistic, as in my experience, the “mush” effect is information overload. I’d be looking for some software that can present summaries of each thing, and let you drill down. Something that lets you actually structure and filter the data, not just free-form text. And then spend some time thinking about what kinds of information you need “at a glance” in which contexts, and make multiple displays of the same data with any extra things hidden.

      Maybe something like Obsidian? I’ve never used it, but it looks like it has plugins and stuff for creating more structured data (so project X can actually have a list of “parts” with information like “cost” and “location”, and you can make a display that’s just the location of each part, without the other information)

      1. Gatomon*

        But copying things down endlessly until I accept that I’ll just never do them and give up is me to a T! :( Seems like the consensus is paper though, so maybe I need to just shut up and try it.

        Yes, something that can do an overview and then let me drill down would be perfect. Something that puts Project X in flaming red because it’s about to go down in a ball of fire and then lets me click on it to see why it’s exploding. And something that can shunt Project Y off to a dark corner to lurk while its on ice. (Maybe it doesn’t exist.) I’ll take a look at Obsidian, I’ve never heard of it before either but it looks intriguing.

        1. Mill Miker*

          The third way out of copying something everyday (other than “do it” and “give up/realize it doesn’t need doing”) is deciding the timing is wrong, and moving it to whatever you’re using to track longer-term work.

    4. OtterB*

      Not neurodivergent, but there’s an app called Clickup that I got the free version of when it was mentioned here a few weeks ago. The up side is that it offers multiple ways of viewing the same task list – a list, a Kanban board, a calendar, or other templates. The down side is that there’s a learning curve. I still haven’t figured out how to apply it to my work but it has enough potential that I’m still slogging away at it.

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Please note I’m an internet stranger, so I may be completely off base:

      Like many people, you’re trying to solve a process problem by throwing technology at it. And that has yet to work, in my 15+ years of experience. This isn’t about finding the right technology (e.g., OneNote, ToDoist). And I say that because I don’t think it will be helpful to spend time or money on a new software at this time.

      If your employer is willing to spend money, find a good consultant who specializes in helping set up processes/systems. Or have them send you to seminars on project management for labs/scientists (or allow you to spend work time on free courses).

      Your end goal is pretty much what I do for a living. And, while it can be trained/taught, it’s not about the technology. Different employers have had me use different tech. The difference wasn’t in the tech so much as it was how the employer did things.

    6. MommaCat*

      Welcome to diagnosed ADHD land! It’s actually pretty cool over here.
      Ok, so I work in theater, so my scheduling tasks ends up being a bit different, but feel free to adapt to make it work for you. For each segment (scenic elements in my case) I get really granular on what needs to be done, in what order, and how much time I think it will take. I know you said granular is rough for you, but bear with me. This usually goes on either a google sheet or excel sheet; each show gets its own saved document, and each scenic element gets its own tab. I don’t usually print it out, but I use it to help me populate my daily to-do list that I hand write. When I’m perusing my master to-do lists, I’ll do a quick look over and check off any mini-tasks that are done or what next steps are/what we’re waiting on. I also use the heck out of my calendar, though I use both my phone and a physical calendar; my phone gets everything that needs an alarm attached, so it gets overwhelming for me really quickly. My physical calendar helps me keep an overview going, though it can be annoying to make sure my phone and physical calendar are synced. Someday I’ll find the perfect app for all that, but this works for me for now.

  92. byfridays*

    How do you reach out to/inform references they may be contacted as part of an ongoing job search?

    I’m completing a fellowship and looking for my first post-grad job. I’m applying to a variety of types of positions (think research, coordination, etc. type roles) and I’ve started to reach out to references – I have 1-2 close ones that are happy for me to list them anytime, anywhere, but how do I broach the subject with other references, as some of the jobs I’m applying to ask for references with the initial application?

    TLDR: Should I be informing my references of every job app I submit that includes their names/information?

    bonus: job search tips for someone who is a cover letter/resume perfectionist and has missed app deadlines due to this?

    1. Colette*

      Contact the people you expect to ask before your job search, something like:
      “Hi X, I’m starting a job search and I am hoping you’d be willing to be a reference for me.” (you can add details about “because you had a good chance to see my work when we worked together at CompanyR”.

      But then I wouldn’t let them know they might get a call until you’re farther along in the procerss and are confident they might be called.

      (And remind yourself that if you apply, you might get it wrong and not get the job … but if you don’t apply, you’re definitely not getting the job.)

    2. Somehow_I_Manage*

      TLDR: Should I be informing my references of every job app I submit that includes their names/information?

      Keep your circle of references small and close. Keep them in the loop. They should all know that you’re listing them as references. No exceptions. If they’re forcing you to list them on the application, stick to your 1-2 close ones.

      Don’t make the mistake of thinking you have to list a reference from someone you don’t trust. E.g., some people list former bosses that they didn’t get along with because they think it’s required. It’s not. List the best possible person for you.

      If they’re asking for a number for employment verification at a previous employer, best practice is to list the number for your HR rep. They’re used to it and will confirm you worked there without commentary. Especially if you’re not sure your former boss or coworker would handle that call professionally.

      Good luck! Hopefully the phones ring soon! You got this!

    3. Educator*

      Calling references is time-consuming and tedious. No rational company will be contacting them until you have had at least one interview, probably many more. If you have their general approval to list them, I would not inform your references of every application–tell them when you are further in the process and there is mutual interest. Added benefit–you can tell them what they might want to emphasize about your work if they do get a call!

      As a hiring manager, I spend less than five minutes looking at your initial application. (And at too many companies, a computer would do that for me.) I am not at all obsessed with the perfect turn of phrase or the most ideal formatting–I just want to know if you are a good fit for the job and why. And if I get a great pool of applicants well ahead of the deadline, I might not even look at the applications that come in later on. Done is way more important than perfect.

  93. Pay issues unresolved*

    I work for a large organization, am a union member, and am currently on leave. Due to a miscommunication earlier this year about the timeline and structure of my leave, I experienced anomalous pay of two kinds:
    -For a handful of days, I didn’t receive pay (and rightly so, given the leave structure). However, in the next paycheck, my typical day’s pay was subtracted for those days, as if they had paid me and later realized they shouldn’t have paid me… except I was never paid for those days in the first place.
    -I worked/used paid leave for a couple days while the system showed me as on leave. It makes sense I didn’t get paid in the paycheck where the system thought I wasn’t working, but I’ve never gotten paid for those days since.

    I’ve submitted the issue to the payroll department, where such things appear to be handled by a single person. This person told me to look at my pay stub for the first pay date, and marked it resolved. (I had sent them pay stubs and timesheets for the dates in question, along with a very basic, clear summary and a detailed, specific summary. I suspect the person just didn’t look closely at what I submitted.) I reopened the issue with a request to look for the specific dates in the materials I had attached. The payroll person told me to look closer, and again marked it resolved. I quadruple-checked, and yeah, I’m certain there’s an issue with those dates. So I reopened the issue again and emailed the person directly, attaching screenshots and what I hope is a clearer explanation of my understanding.

    I don’t know of internal recourse if this person marks it resolved again without at least saying “here’s what you missed” – which I am open to hearing! So my questions are:
    -What are my next steps if there’s still no resolution, and do they involve the union? If not, when do I contact the union?
    -What are the parameters around ‘late pay’ laws? For most of the dates, it’s not that I should have gotten paid for work I did, it’s that my pay was ultimately negative (rather than net zero) for days I didn’t work. For the other dates, I did use leave, so wasn’t *working* working but should still have gotten paid/compensated. To what extent would late pay laws be applicable for these situations?

    1. Colette*

      I’d probably ask your manager (or their manager) to intervene, but if that’s not possible, yes, I’d go to the union.

    2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I think if payroll bounces it back to you again, it’s a good time to loop in your union rep since you’ve given it a solid effort at working through channels already. Personally, I would have done so after the second trip through payroll didn’t pan out, but I’m on good terms with my union rep and the union higher-ups, so sending them a “just a heads-up, but here’s where I’m at in dealing with [issue]” is something I’m comfortable doing in general, and might even have done by forwarding them the email I send to payroll the second time as an FYI so they’d be looped in if needed in the future.

      1. Wearing my UnionRep hat*

        I agree— at least make your union rep aware of what has been happening. They can help to advise with any next steps in trying to get your issue resolved or to get an explanation (whether they be formal or informal steps). In addition, it is always beneficial for the union to be aware of mistakes/problems people experience with payroll or benefits. You might not be the first or last person to whom this has happened.

  94. Tired wife*

    I would be interested to hear from anybody that works for a School District, how do you enforce personal boundary issues before and after traditionally work hours? My husband works in support services for our local district, and is job requires that he is pretty much on call 24/7 for those he supervises. That would be fine, but it’s other employees that could wait to ask a question during work hours, and don’t, that are leading to me burning out…and I don’t work there!

    Example: An administrator of one of the schools called, because his wife (another employee) couldn’t remember what time she had scheduled something. Yes, this phone call woke both of us up.
    A text message from a former admin complaining that one of the guys my husband supervised at the time was refusing to do something the admin wanted. This happened on a Holiday weekend, where no one should have been working, let alone trying to argue with someone they didn’t supervise. When my husband politely pointed out that he should submit a request for the work the next week and he would see what could be done, the guy came unhinged and sent four or five whiny rants through text, elevating my husbands blood pressure, and ruining what was left of our family outing.
    Text messages ( five or six) from an employee and his wife, because they wanted a certain situation handled differently , were disappointed they were being told no, and kept complaining. Late Friday night through Saturday Evening. He had to keep his phone on in case someone he supervises actually needed him. So we both got jolted awake with every complaint.
    Messages from teachers on weekends wanting to borrow equipment, that they could have put in a request for during the work week. This often leads to my husband having to return to work on a day he has off to prep what ever they need.
    As he’s on Salary, none of this is compensated.
    So I guess my question is…is this normal in an educational field, or are we dealing with high rate of dysfunction?

      1. Tired wife*

        Sometimes he doesn’t. But they still send text messages/or calls, and that’s what wakes us up. In the case of the former Admin who pitched the hissy fit, he thought a courteous answer would cool it down. ( he was wrong) And truthfully, with his job he does need to communicate with these people. Just not necessarily at ten in the evening when he needs to be at work at 5:30 am.

        1. Colette*

          I don’t know what the expectations are for his job – but people are doing it because it works. So ignoring the call (setting the phone to do not disturb except for the numbers that should be contacting him) would help. So would not helping if he answers – i.e. point them to the correct process. And he can set expectations in advance – but all of this assumes his management is on board with it.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Possible technical solution: do the people he supervises always call from the same phone numbers? If so, depending on how many people he supervises, he can set his phone to “do not disturb” mode and program the supervisees’ phone numbers in as exceptions. That way, when one of his employees calls in the middle of the night the call will go through, wake him up, and he can deal with the situation. If it’s anyone else, the phone will stay silent, the caller will be directed to voicemail, and you will get to sleep peacefully.

      (Not in education, so can’t speak to normalcy/dysfunction of the situation.)

    3. Heather*

      You can mute individuals on your phone. It won’t solve 100% of his problem— but he needs to set his phone for the times he’s unavailable, and he can set an exception for the people he needs to be available for. And for heaven’s sake, don’t answer a text that comes while sleeping! Ignore it entirely, and then during business hours, explain that you aren’t available after Xpm.

    4. saskia*

      This is wild. He doesn’t “have to” do a lot of these things. Your husband is setting the expectation that he’s available at all hours. Once he stops being so permissive, people will learn they better get their requests in during school hours.

      Non-urgent request? Ignore, or send a stock reply: “All non-urgent requests, such as this one, will be responded to during the school week.” He could even add, “Weekend hours are reserved for urgent requests from my direct supervisees. Thanks for understanding.”

      Honestly, your husband needs to solve these problems, not you. I would be livid if my husband spent precious family time responding to some jerk. And nighttime phone calls? Seriously, what?! He needs to look up how to add contacts to a Do Not Disturb “exceptions” list, add his reports and close family/friends, and turn his phone to DND at night. Contact settings on phones nowadays thankfully allow a lot of customization.
      And you need to stop putting up with these endless disruptions!

    5. DisneyChannelThis*

      Husband needs to establish better boundaries with work. This sounds more like a husband problem than a job problem.

      Don’t check work messages during family outings. Get a google voice number (free) and either use it just for work or just for family. Then you can leave the work phone number muted while not working.

      Send out messaging proactively about what should be a text (server farm on fire) vs what should be emailed and will be answered on next business day. People are texting him in off hours because he’s responding, which is training them that’s the best way to get his attention. Get your boss to back you up if needed.

      Mute the fricking phone at night! You can setup exceptions like elderly parents numbers that are able to bypass Do Not Disturb. On android phones you can also setup so if the same number calls 3+ times in the same 5 min it will ring through. My android automatically silences itself at 11PM everyday and turns sound notifications back on 6AM, I think iphone has that too now.

      Turn on do not disturb when at family time too. The world will not end if upset admin has to wait an hour for husband to tell admin to wait until monday anyway. Treat family time like going into a movie theater, silence that phone!

    6. Flower necklace*

      As a high school teacher, I find this very strange. I have my AP’s phone number and will occasionally receive texts/phone calls from her during work hours. However, even then, we mostly communicate via email or in person. Text or phone calls are more for emergency situations that require an immediate response.

      I can’t imagine texting other APs or the principal ever. Even if I could dig up their phone numbers, I wouldn’t dare to. The chain of command is pretty clear: department chair (which I was up, until this past June), assistant principal, principal. Even as department chair, I would communicate with the principal through my supervising AP. Maybe other areas are different, but that’s the way it works at my school.

    7. Educator*

      As a former district administrator–this is a training issue. Sometimes there are true emergencies, so muting people is not an option. If the building is actually on fire, he wants to get that call. (Based on a true story.)

      But he needs to spell out with his staff what constitutes an emergency (child in immediate danger, very expensive problem that will get worse without immediate action) and what does not (pretty much everything else). He needs to say it to them, out loud, and then in writing too. Include a timeline for things like equipment requests. Then, when someone calls or texts with a non-emergency, he needs to remind them of that policy and tell them he looks forward to talking further during business hours. If they are rude, he needs to manage it like any other discipline issue.

      In education, far too often, we have to set our own boundaries. No one will do it for us.

      1. Tired wife*

        I agree he needs to firm up his boundaries. The people he actually supervises are not the issue.(They are such an awesome team!) It’s staff in other departments who need to use the service he is in charge of. So, he can’t do anything disciplinary wise when people are rude.

        But we will be having a little pep talk this year about enforcing boundaries with other staff members after 6 pm.

        1. Rick Tq*

          Start enforcing the boundary that his phone is on Silent when you are on family time and at night.

          The first time a teacher doesn’t get equipment on a weekend because they didn’t reserve it will solve that problem, and unless your husband is a member of the fire brigade he doesn’t need to know about a building fire either outside of work hours.

    8. Rara Avis*

      It sounds like the need a ticketing system for routine requests, and he should have a work number that is only available to limited people for real emergencies. My school holds a very firm line that requests for maintenance, equipment, or tech help will only be addressed through the ticketing system. If there’s an emergency (solar panels on roof catch on fire level), we call the office and they get hold of the relevant people.

  95. The Reconciler*

    My direct boss, the director of my department, recently left for a new job. My team was pretty devastated to lose her. Our grandboss is now managing us and making things more chaotic and stressful than they need to be. We are overwhelmed and frustrated.

    I decided to apply for the vacant department director job because I have felt stagnant in my career and the role would be a perfect fit for where I want to be and what I want to be doing. My coworkers as well as the senior folks I spoke to (for advice/reference purposes) were very encouraging about my application.

    I just heard a rumor from a reliable source that the Dean (I work in higher ed) has someone in mind for the position already. This Dean started a year ago and has been slowly replacing the college’s leadership with people from her prior institution. So it would seem I have no chance of advancing here.

    I’m so sad. I’ve been working here 15 years and I’ve been promoted to progressively more senior roles. I was hoping to continue on this path, but now I just feel stuck. I can’t leave because I wouldn’t be able to get the same pay and benefits elsewhere. (I have looked; I am in a niche field within higher ed and there are just no positions available at the appropriate level in my area.) And as the sole provider for a family of four, I can’t afford to take a pay cut. So I am going to have to suck it up and deal while some buddy of the Dean’s who is probably less qualified* tells me how to do my job.

    *I base that speculation on the fact that the job ad did not include a very important certification in our field as one of the requirements for the position. I was confused about this when I applied and now I assume this was left off the qualifications list because the Dean’s friend doesn’t have it.

    I don’t have any particular question, but commiseration and advice are welcome.

    1. Not Totally Subclinical*

      I have no advice but lots of commiseration, as someone who’s also in a niche job that wouldn’t transfer to something similarly or better compensated without a move.

  96. Hybrid Employee (Part Human, Part Wolf)*

    I got a rejection email yesterday for a job I applied to in June of 2022.

    2. The Prettiest Curse*

      Wow, that’s an impressively bad glitch in their applicant tracking system!

    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      That’s slightly hilarious. I kinda want to track longest replies to applications then name and shame now….

      1. Hybrid Employee (Part Human, Part Wolf)*

        It was Milk makeup! I’d try to protect them but it’ll take them 13 months to find this comment.

        I am happy employed elsewhere now, and have not been waiting by the phone for their call for a year, thank goodness.

    5. Mrs C*

      This made me laugh out loud! What a great way for them to say, “here’s one more red flag about our place!”

      If they were under new management and reaching out with a “we’re better now, please apply again,” I would understand. But–good grief!

  97. Anon this time*

    I need help determining whether thing that’s happening at my new job is okay or not (I know, at the point you have to ask if something is okay…this might be totally kosher; I just can’t tell.)

    I’m a full-time employee at a state agency with a 35 hour workweek. I fill out a time sheet. I think I’m salaried? The issue is that no matter how many hours I work over 35, I can’t report the time. No comp time, no over time…but this job can’t be done in 35 hours a week so I’m expected to work more than that, and it seems like everyone else works quite a bit more. Is this legal? It’s the part where I complete a time sheet and have to say I’m working 7 hours a day (regardless of my actual hours worked) that’s throwing me off. By contrast, my husband is salaried, doesn’t fill out a time sheet for his job or track his hours, and works about 40 hours a week. It’s not weird that he’s not earning comp time but I feel like I should be.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      a lot of it is weird, but if you’re exempt, it’s legal. (The question isn’t salaried vs hourly, it’s exempt vs non-exempt. I’ve been salaried non-exempt before, which was actually really nice.)

    2. Somehow_I_Manage*

      Good question. You need to determine if you’re exempt or not. If you’re not, it’s definitely not okay.

      If you are, it’s potentially ok, but raises questions about the expectations for your position and whether your compensation is appropriate.

      Comp time depends on your agency. The concept is pretty rare in the private sector, but common in some government agencies.

    3. Educator*

      If you are in the US, you need to figure out your employment classification—are you exempt or non-exempt? If you are non-exempt, they have to pay you for all hours worked and overtime if above 40 per week. This should be in your job description or offer letter, or it might be apparent from the kind of work that you do (search FLSA non-exempt to read about the strict criteria that distinguish the two categories—it’s defined by the government, not your employer). If you are filling out a time sheet you are very likely non-exempt.

      From there, I think it is a collaborative conversation with your boss about how you want to make sure you are recording your time accurately and following the law. I’m not sure I would ask for comp time—it has to be taken in the same week if you are non-exempt. But you should for sure have your hours or workload adjusted.

      1. Dancing Otter*

        Yes, recording your time accurately is an absolute baseline. Deliberately falsifying a timesheet is timesheet fraud no matter whether it’s in your favor or the company’s. Do NOT work off the clock.

        If you are forbidden to *record* more than 35 hours, you are in effect forbidden to *work* more than 35 hours. ESPECIALLY if you are non-exempt, in which case the company is guilty of wage theft if they refuse to pay for all the hours worked. (Between 35 and 40 hours is a grey area; they could claim your normal salary covers that. Over 40 is clear-cut, though.)

        A non-exempt employee can be censured for working unauthorized overtime, but they have to be paid.

    4. Rick Tq*

      If you aren’t paid and your department refuses to track any hours over 35 then don’t work them at all.

      If the job can’t be done by one person in your normal work week it isn’t a one person job, but at least two and should be staffed that way.

    5. Anon this time*

      I’m exempt, but in my last position (also exempt) I earned comp time for additional hours worked. That I have to basically pretend I’m not working more than my standard workweek now is rubbing me the wrong way.

      Ive already had this conversation with my manager (what to do about hours worked over 35) and got a non-answer. The whole thing is feeling very weird—in addition to some other issues that have come up. This job wasn’t accurately portrayed, and I’m not sure it’s a good long-term fit. It would have been if what I was told about it was accurate…the obvious answer regarding hours seems to be not to work more than 35 a week, but I’ll fall behind and probably look like I’m not a team player if I do that. Ugh.

      Thank you all for your comments. I have a lot to think about.

      1. Rick Tq*

        Sometimes management doesn’t see the problems caused by not fully documenting your time. I worked as a summer hire at an aerospace company and we had an All Hands meeting where the VP told us to only document 40 hours a week on our time cards regardless of the hours, the company had gone far over budget on a different project and needed to cut costs.

        One of the PhD engineers got up and asked “If we don’t record our time accurately for THIS project how will we ever be able to correctly estimate the time for the NEXT one?”

        Your manager will never have the documentation to justify a new employee in your group if she can’t show the workload isn’t being met with the staff she has.

      2. constant_craving*

        I would definitely object to being forced to fill in a time card incorrectly. I believe that’s considered time card fraud, even if it’s benefiting the company. If you’re exempt then they don’t have to use a time card to track your hours, but it’s really problematic not to give you a way to be honest. I’d skip filling it out until they can offer you a solution.

      3. EMP*

        Usually I’ve seen exempt with a time card in jobs where billable hours are tracked, so even if you only ever get paid for 35 hours/week, you need to track all of your hours. If they aren’t tracking all your hours for some other reason, but forcing you to only track 35, that feels weird to me.

        If you really want to, you could contact someone with more expertise (employment lawyer? state labor board?) to see if you are misclassified as exempt and should be hourly (and thus eligible for overtime), but if it’s not a good fit then I don’t know if you want to throw your energy into that.

    6. CatCat*

      Can you ask why you’re supposed to fill out your time in this manner?

      Do you have a union?

      1. Anon this time*

        We do have a union. I’ll ask our rep about this because it seems wrong to me. I know this is what the union is for and also I’m a little afraid of how this might go.

        1. Rick Tq*

          If timecard fraud charging for work not done is a termination offense then requiring a subordinate to under-report and under-charge IMO should be handled the same way.

  98. Quincy413*

    Anyone have advice about disclosing a chronic illness at work? What language have you seen work/used? Does it make sense to focus on accommodations for specific symptoms rather than disclose everything?

    (I looked through old posts and the prevailing wisdom is to avoid disclosure at all costs or try to wait months/years before disclosing. I’m looking for a middle road between total secret and total overshare.)

    The accommodations I would hypothetically need are occasional flexibility for medical appointments and to be excused from any office activities involving food. Thoughts?

    1. ferrina*

      I’d first like to caution with the usual caveats about disclosing health conditions at work- retaliation is illegal but still happens. People may start treating you differently. You may have annoying healthcare opinions or “advice” thrust at you. Regardless of how much or little you share, or how illegal it may be, that’s always the risk.

      The accommodations you ask for may be just fine without you officially asking for accommodations. Depending on your office, these are things that could easily fly under the radar. (see also DisneyChannelThis’s thread on avoiding office events with food).

      That said- the appointments are easy enough. “I have a health condition that I need to take care of. Nothing to worry about, I just have to go to regular appointments with my healthcare provider.” There will probably be some noise making sure you’re okay. “Yep, I’m fine! Just something I need to take care of so it doesn’t flare up. Honestly, I don’t like talking about it that much. Don’t worry, I’ll let you know if it could impact my work.”

      Asking for avoiding food events will be harder. That one will pretty much signal that it’s an ED. If your work is proven to be supportive, you could make the request and let it lie. Or if food doesn’t come into the office much, you could just-so-happen to be sick or have an urgent project or something to avoid it.
      Good luck!

      1. Quincy413*

        Hey ferrina, wanted to thank you for the detailed reply and referring me to that other thread. Love this language for the appointments especially!

  99. owlet*

    What’s the best way to handle colleagues freezing you out?

    I’m quite socially awkward and have a very hard time reading social cues. People tend to baffle me with their behaviours. I’m also older, experienced, and usually get along quite well with my coworkers.

    Yesterday we were on a coffee break, all sitting together. I had something to say, and started saying it. But everyone was glued to their phones, ignoring me, so I stumbled to a stop. I said something to the person sitting next to me, and they glanced at me with a very slight sneer, shrugged, and went back to their phone.

    It was the sneer and shrug that broke me.

    I felt really awful – humiliated, embarrassed, even more awkward, hurt, and angry. I just got up and left without a word.

    Have any of you encountered that, and how did you handle it effectively? I want to find a way to call it out, without making things worse, especially with all the current attention on so-called “Diversity and Inclusion,” which I find to be lip service and not followed through on.

    Thoughts? I mean, right now I’m just not saying anything in groups that’s not immediately work-related, but as a long-term strategy that seems limiting. Thank you in advance, commentariat, I find this site so useful and your comments are frequently so informative!

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      Oh my gosh! I’m so sorry this happened to you!
      I actually don’t think I have much to say that will help you, but if you’ve generally gotten along well with co-workers during your career, do you think it’s just this crew? Are they immature? Do they have a “mean girl” vibe?
      Did anything happen after this situation? Maybe really watch everyone and see how they respond/react to everyone else. Be a scientific observer for a while. Watch their expressions and body language. Maybe they treat everyone like this? Maybe this was a one off?
      This isn’t about you, owlet. This is most certainly about them.
      Good luck!!

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      I’m sorry your hurting. Social cues can be really tough.

      I know here there are days when everyone is super chatty on their breaks and then sometimes there are days when everyone just wants to be left alone to read a book on their phone or answer their texts. I know I personally pull out my phone sometimes on my lunch just to signal that I am not in the mood for talking the whole break, I’d rather some quiet time. Kinda like it used to be carrying a physical book into the breakroom, just now its the kindle app on my phone.

      If you’re not sure if people want to talk, try leading with it like “hey got a moment?” or “hey want to hear something cool I did yesterday?”. Gives them the option to say “maybe in 5minutes I want to finish checking my emails” or “I’m so worn out by clients talking today I really need this break to chill out, can we catch up tomorrow?” . Social skill upgrade level 2, leading with a question like “Anyone read anything interesting lately?” can let you gauge the mood, if everyone else is giving one or two word answers (“Not really”) they’re not in the mood for conversation and they’re signalling that. If it sparks a discussion people are up for chatting.

      If it’s just a one off incident I’d be charitable to them and assume the sneer wasn’t mean for you maybe they were frowning at the devastating news article they just read or something and didn’t clear their face before making eye contact.

    3. Colette*

      I actually think just sticking to work-related conversation is probably the way to go. It’s not great, but it might be your best bet. (I assume you’ve thought back to make sure there weren’t cues you’d missed, such as someone saying “oh the big email on project X just came in” or “hey check out the video I just sent you”. I also assume that, in general, conversation was happening, it wasn’t just people sitting in the same area staring at their phones.)

      I also think you can try limiting your conversation to one person at once – making sure that you’re listening as much as talking, and ending the conversation a little sooner than you’d like.

      But sometimes people just dislike you for no reason. I had one coworker who instantly hated me, and I just avoided her. (She ended up leaving, and if she hadn’t I probably would have, because she made the environment very unpleasant.)

      1. owlet*

        I think you may be right. Maybe I was being gloomy and no one wanted to hear it. Sticking to work related topics or asking them about themselves is probably a good default option. Thanks!

    4. constant_craving*

      Is there anything going on besides the coffee break? You mention that you’re bad at reading social cues, so I’m wondering if there’s just a misinterpretation here. In the absence of other things happening, this just sounds like people were zoning out on their phones during a break. If this is the only thing, I wouldn’t read anything personal into it at all.

    5. Unkempt Flatware*

      Can you tell us a little more about this interaction? Were these folks silently looking at their phones before you started speaking? Did you address anyone in particular before you started speaking or just spoke out to the group? What was said before you noticed a slight sneer?

      I can tell you that I have been the rude one in a similar situation. I was once microwaving my lunch in the break room and standing there watching my food to make sure it didn’t boil over. A man stopped at the doorway, looked in at all the goodies left out on the table from a cookie exchange that had just happened, and said, “Wow!!!”. I turned, looked at him, looked at the cookies, smiled, and turned back to my lunch. He did the exact same thing again so this time I ignored it and kept watching my food. “Is something wrong?” he asked.
      Uh, no….?
      “Oh well I just tried to speak to you and you ignored me”.

      Except he didn’t speak to me. He said words out into the ether, not to me. Words that couldn’t really be made into a conversation by another person. And he made it up to me to carry a conversation I didn’t start.

      Honestly, this all sounds like folks were just trying to take a break, were surfing the web, and everyone expected someone else to respond to you. Sort of like a crowd dynamic where all think someone else is going to take care of it.

  100. RedinSC*

    Oh, there’s over 900 comments here, I hope people see this one.

    I work for a county government office. We’re starting to interview for a support position, and the forms we have are not at all suited for things like reference checks for people who are returning to the workforce after having been out raising families, etc.

    What types of reference questions would you ask someone who’s a family friend, not a colleague?

    1. EMP*

      Are they reliable? Do you have any concerns about their ability to [do whatever is essential for your job – track hours? keep track of paperwork?] or have they seen the candidate show those skills?

    2. Educator*

      Honestly, I would give zero credit to a reference who is a family friend and has never seen the prospective employee in a professional context. Not worth the time to call. They are biased and don’t have the information you want anyway.

      Instead, I would first ask for a professional-adjacent reference, like a supervisor at a volunteer gig, the teacher of a class they took–anyone who has seen them in a more professional light. If no such person exists, I would do a skills assessment of some sort instead (something that takes about an hour and is near the end of your process) to get more data.

      1. RedinSC*

        I like that adjacent idea. She said she took a class at the local community college, I can see if her instructor would be willing to talk with me.

    3. Government Drone*

      I wouldn’t. Those aren’t references, they’re testimonials from unreliable sources. If they can’t provide appropriate work-related references, I wouldn’t waste my time talking to their friends – that’s not going to get me any useful info.

  101. Cat on a Keyboard*

    I’m hourly non-exempt in a professional role where we have to fill out detailed timesheets every 2 weeks. I also have ADHD which I am managing with medication, therapy (not sure how much it helps with that), and a rotating mix of time management tips and hacks from the internet. What’s made the biggest difference, though, is that I’ve managed to get myself into a role where I work fairly independently and have flexibility in when and how I work. I don’t have a lot of direct supervision and am generally trusted to handle my ish. However, scraping up 40 hours to put on my timesheet is a constant struggle. I do some combination of generous “rounding,” working on weekends, and just logging slightly less than 40 hours to try and make it work. (The ethics of these decisions are unclear and make me feel anxious.)

    The problem is over the past month, my motivation/focus has cratered, coinciding with a lull in my workload. There are back burner tasks I could be doing, but I lose entire days to doing I-don’t-know-what and cant seem to follow through on my work plans. I don’t know why, maybe it’s because there’s less deadline pressure, or maybe it’s summer and my brain is in vacation mode. On the last timesheet, I logged about 47 out of 80 hours for 10 business days, mentally cringing and rehearsing what I would say if someone brought it up to me. On the current timesheet period I’m looking at even fewer hours.

    I’m not clear who reviews my timesheets or what they are looking for, I’m not sure how much less than full time is a problem. The issue of timesheets <40 hrs/week came up last year, when I was still working on my diagnosis/medications and struggling to hit full time hours. My manager at that time was willing to let it slide but warned that at some point the business office would take issue with my receiving full-time status and not working full-time hours. She left the company and the person who is my official supervisor now is on medical leave for the next month.

    I'm not looking for advice on boosting my hours – I just have to keep fighting that battle on various fronts – what I want to know is how I'm supposed to handle this with my employer. Do I need to request special accommodations for ADHD? Do I need permission to work less when I have less work to do, if I'm hourly? Do I need to care about this if nobody complains? To be honest I'm exhausted, and can afford to have a few weeks low paycheck, but time off is not restful when I'm stressing about my timesheets and whether I'm going to get in trouble later.

    1. WellRed*

      Nobody works a solid 40 hours a week without some downtime. I know this has been discussed here before. Build it in to other tasks?

    2. Irish Teacher*

      I don’t know how your ADHD manifests, but is it possible you are being a bit too precise. I have a tendency to literalism (may or may not be autistic) and my temptation would be to time things to the minute or at least to within 5 minutes (I spent 40 minutes on X task) and add things up precisely, but as WellRed says, in the office, nobody’s 9-5 consists of being on task 24/7 so if you are “pausing the clock,” so to speak, every time you go get a sandwich, make a coffee, etc, you may be being a bit too literal.

      I suspect your “rounding” is what is expected. I know my inclination would be to be very exact, but if you had “direct supervision,” they would be rounding, I mean, they would be including the time you chatted casually about your weekend as part of your meeting with them, that sort of thing.

      I don’t think this is about you needing to work less due to ADHD, but I’ve read recently, that people with ADHD can have some issues with social cues and taking things literally, similar to those on the autistic spectrum and that seems true of some people I’ve known too, so I am just raising it as a possibility. It doesn’t sound like you are doing less than others.

  102. FridayFunDay*

    When a job posting has a laundry list of responsibilities and they want to know how many years of experience you have for the whole list how does one go about answering that if you have experience for most of the responsibilities but not all?

    1. Ez*

      I wouldn’t assume they’re asking you to answer that for each bullet point. Most job listings are saying what the dream/ideal candidate would have, but realistically no candidate will have all those things. If they’re asking for a year, I’d average it out or do it based on what you’ve done the longest out of the most important points.

  103. Miss Chanandler Bong*

    So I’m having a bad year. I was laid off back in May. Then, I took a job, probably too quickly without evaluating it thoroughly enough, and it turned out to be a very bad fit, and they finally let me go this week.

    I’m not sure I want any advice, but if anyone has any similar experiences and came out on top, I could use that right now.

    1. RedinSC*

      I’m sorry you’re having a bad year. I started off my year as a bad year and managed to turn it around. Not only was the job front really shaky, but my parents aren’t well, I got COVID, you know, bad year stuff.

      I was able to turn it around, and I think your knowing that the job wasn’t a good fit is just a reminder for you to evaluate the position a bit more deeply next time. I got lucky, I got 2 job offers at the same time, one that would have been a job, but not what I wanted, and the one I took. SO, I’m sending you the vibes you need to get a new job, and be able to move forward!

      You got this!

    2. misscaliforniagirl*

      I am so sorry to hear about your no good very bad year. I am sending virtual support. Someone is out here cheering for you as you work through All of the Things. A family member was laid off many years ago and then had a brief stint with a manager that would rival any on here for craziest ever, and she bounced back. She was offered a position with a significant raise last year after having been fired from her most recent job. She was honest with the interviewers, and they appreciated her candor. You have the gift of a little more clarity now around what might be a good fit, which is a good thing. Wishing you all of the success and good luck! You can do it!

      1. feline outerwear catalog*

        I was in a similar situation. I lost 2 jobs in one year, too. I was fired first, then laid off from a new job that was a bad fit. I’m now back at a previous employer which has made significant improvements since I left. It’s nice to be back, it’s a good place but the things that made me leave were out of my department’s control.

        Hang in there, it’s hard. Take a break if you can, I took advantage of free/discount museum and attraction days just to get out of the house for a bit when I was unemployed.

        If you’re spending lots of time on LinkedIn, take breaks. The constant posts saying you’re unemployable unless you’re an influencer were really grating after a while!

  104. There You Are*

    Why is that when companies hire a manager, and that manager turns out to be problematic, the company will literally kill a department (and perhaps the whole company) before firing the Problem Manager? They don’t seem to have any problems getting rid of not-managers who treat people horribly, ghost their co-workers, and bad-mouth anyone who they aren’t immediately speaking to.

    We have a Problem Manager in our department and, despite tons of complaints to the other managers — which have been floated up to my grandboss — nothing is ever said to Problem Manager.

    Problem Manager has made people cry, is rude to the other departments and divisions we work with, ghosts the projects she is supposed to be leading (showing up every now and then to tell the non-management Lead that everything they’re doing is wrong because they aren’t doing it the way she would have), and just has an overall attitude of “Good god, why do I have to work with you idiots??” [The ‘idiots’ being us and anyone who isn’t our grandboss; she is nothing but respectful to the point of obsequiousness with him.]

    This isn’t my first Problem Manager. I’m in my mid-50’s and have worked at over a dozen companies. Managers always, ALWAYS get infinite chances / infinite excuses from those above them.

    Is it so hard to hire managers that companies are fine with terrible ones? Or is that the people above them don’t like the idea of “one of us” being let go, so they circle the wagons to protect their own?

    I’ve always wondered about this but my current Problem Manager is making my work life hell right now, so it’s front and center at the moment.

    1. Glazed Donut*

      I’ve been the boss of a manager like the one you describe. Sometimes there IS something said to the manager, it’s just a matter of time (and documentation) before the next step happens to move to a PIP or a more Serious Discussion.
      Sometimes there’s a lot of red tape from higher ups who want to slow down any changes (If Suzie moves to a different role, explain who will do her job? How do you know the replacement will succeed? etc).
      And sometimes the complaints from the direct reports are more of personality clashes than problematic behaviors (like the email ‘closing the loop’ earlier this week where someone wanted a ‘you’re welcome’ from a thank you). It’s irritating and unnecessary but a small nod to the culture the manager wants to set or build. I will say that with one problematic manager, the direct reports were SHARED as one thing – so the reaction was to look into the one thing – and there was a very different problem at hand. I think there may be problems if DRs collaborate on the problem & don’t allow enough outside individuality to share for the big boss to actually be able to pinpoint the issue. Maybe you are confused by a meeting agenda and that’s what’s addressed but in reality boss has no idea why the meeting is happening and therefore fixing the agenda is a wild goose chase.

    2. Polly Hedron*

      Yes, upper management often does protect one of their own.

      But a worse case is when the grandboss is the real villain of the piece: i.e. grandboss secretly suspects your department are idiots but is too chicken or too lazy to investigate further. Grandboss thinks your previous department head (whom you all loved) was too soft, so he hires a “tougher” manager to do his dirty work. Grandboss takes reports of rudeness and crying as evidence that his plan is working.

  105. I'dliketoliveinalittleaptoverabookstoreonacobblestonest*

    I’ve started searching for a fully remote position in budgeting, invoice processing, vendor and contract management, etc. I am monitoring openings on LinkedIn and through Glassdoor, and I have found some promising opportunities through a local medical system and university. I am wondering how challenging finding a fully remote job will be right now. I am thinking I may have waited too long to begin my search and missed my chance. I see hybrid positions, but for various reasons, hybrid would not be a good fit for my family right now. Does anyone have a gut feeling or any insight into what remote opportunities look like in different industries now and what they may look like over the next 6 – 12 months? Thank you!

    1. There You Are*

      Our CEO just announced a couple of weeks ago that everyone will be in the office Mon-Thu, no exceptions (unless emergencies), INCLUDING the people who were hired to be remote.

      So I think you have to look closely at the CEO / senior management, and discern if they’re old-fashioned, butts-in-seats dinosaurs, or if they understand that there are a ton of jobs that can be done really, really well without sitting in a cube.

      1. I'dliketoliveinalittleaptoverabookstoreonacobblestonest*

        It sounds as though the same thing is happening in so many workplaces right now. I wonder if there will be any backpeddling in a few months around some of these choices now that Covid is ramping back up in the July wave and the winter may be brutal again. I really appreciate the input. Super grateful and great point.

  106. QuiteQuiet*

    What are the biggest country-to-country culture differences you’ve encountered in the job application process?
    In a previous field, I remember a mentor advising me not to list a particular guy as a reference when applying for jobs because he was Dutch and wouldn’t be effusive enough about my work even when he liked it, simply because he was trained in a system where you didn’t gush too much when giving references.
    On the other hand, some US recommendations on what to write in cover letters feel far too emotional for me as a repressed Brit – though perhaps I need to learn to get over that!

    1. Irish Teacher*

      Looking from Ireland, applications for jobs in the UK (at least in teaching) seem to require way more detail than they do here and the interview process seems to require a lot more. I have friends teaching in England and they talk about getting a tour of the school, having to teach a demonstration class, etc, whereas here, it’s usually 1 15-30 minute interview.

      Also, the hiring in the UK seems to take place so early, like April of the previous school year. Here, some is done in late May-June, but a lot takes place in August.

      On AAM, one of the things that seems different is the assumption that applicants are currently working. While, of course, there are always people who want to change jobs, my assumption would usually be that if somebody was job seeking, they were likely to be unemployed. Not sure it this s a country difference, a field difference or dependent on the role one is applying for. In teaching, it’s a risk to give up a “contract of indefinite duration”.

  107. Why won't boomers retired*

    I work for a not for profit. Are there any rules on jobs that volunteers can/cannot do? I was hoping to get a promotion, and I know I was not perfect, but now they are saying that a volunteer can function as controller. She is more experienced, etc, but I am disappointed.

  108. no one reads this far*

    This is so low stakes that I don’t expect an answer but spaghetti, wall, etc.

    So when I first started my job there were 4 of us in my department. Sean, Evie, and Deacon. We all become casual work friends because we were all around the same age and had similar interests. I got moved to a different department and Sean moved onto a job but in the interim, Sean & I became very close friends. He’s literally become my best friend. He’s my homeboy, my rotten soldier, my sweet cheese, my good-time boy, etc etc. We’ve traveled together and

    Deacon did his own thing and we stopped interacting once I got moved to the other department.

    Then there’s Evie. She’s remained in the friend group and she’s very sweet and generous but she’s well…she’s kind of an emotional vampire. Everything is always going catastrophically wrong in her life and at work. Being around her is always a downer. it’s hard enough working with her but Sean is always inviting her out to things and I don’t know how to extricate myself from this without missing out on things that I would genuinely want to do.

    1. Rick Tq*

      If Sean doesn’t work with Evie anymore are they an item and have you talked directly to Sean on how Evie’s personality and behavior affects you?

      If they aren’t coworkers and not in a relationship I don’t quite get why Evie is still being invited to your outings.

      1. constant_craving*

        OP said they’re friends though. Non-dating friends hang out together too.

    2. constant_craving*

      It sounds like Sean still sees Evie as a friend. If you don’t want to spend time with her, then you probably are going to have to skip some things that Sean does. You can talk with Sean about not adding other people to plans you’ve already made if that’s happening, but otherwise I think you’ll just have to accept he’s friends with someone you don’t want to hang out with. Make other plans when he’s hanging out with her or accept that being there means hanging with her too.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      If you and Sean are close enough that you can call him both your good time boy and your sweet cheese, you can also say “Dude, you are the best thing in the world and I love hanging out with you but please for the love of god can we have a little less Evie? She takes a lot of energy during the day at work, and by the time I get to the not-work part of my life I need a break, because she’s sweet and kind but so much. SO MUCH.”

    4. There You Are*

      There’s an Evie in one my friend groups. She is utterly exhausting and a thousand times worse with any amount of booze in her system.

      The main hub gof that group of friends has been friends with Our Evie for decades and won’t cut her loose. So I have just had to perfect my skill of ignoring her and not engaging, even when she’s crying. (“Yup, that sucks that your sister didn’t invite you to her kid’s recital, but you can’t pick your family. [pause] Speaking of family, my across-the-street neighbor’s brother is staying with them for the summer while his house is being remodeled and let me just say that he is easy on the eyes!”

  109. IndecisiveGal*

    I really hate my indecisiveness so here’s hoping I get some senses drilled into me.

    I’ve been job hunting and, with the helpful advices from this blog, I was offered a nice sounding position. Except I’m now having second thoughts about accepting the offer. The pay will be better and the team that I will be working with looks nice. I will have a lot more newer responsibilities.

    This is more of a me problem. I’m having second thoughts because my current job is relatively low stress. Honestly, I think it has spoiled me. The thought of having to do more work than I currently do is just…dreadful. In my current job, I don’t have to do overtime, whereas I am expected to do in the new job (this was discussed in the interview). Now, I get to leave work exactly at 5:00pm. I turn off my work phone and don’t have to think about it until the next day. My boss never calls me after hours. In my new job, well, I’m not sure if it will be the same.

    So why look for a job in the first place? While my current job is almost perfect, it’s a fixed-term position. Meaning I can only work in this job for six years maximum. I’m in my third year so, while I still have three years, I’m scared it might be too late to find a new job at the end of my term.

    My thought process is: On one hand, I’m thinking I want to bathe in this stress-free environment much longer. I’m still in my late-30s but I’m so tired of working. I feel burnt out. I think I deserve a few years of rest, right? What if the new job ends up being toxic? Then that means I left my current job for nothing. On the other hand, this new opportunity is probably that something I need to advance my career (then again what does it mean to advance your career when you’re tired of working?). I will be able to learn new skills and experience, and get paid more. My family and my friends are encouraging me to take the job. They say I’m crazy for even having second thoughts. So I feel like I will disappoint them if I don’t.

    I’ve been debating on my choices for the past two days. I think my anxiety is taking over but I will have to make a final decision by Monday. I’m wondering what others would say. Do I stay or take the new job?

    1. constant_craving*

      Three more years is a lot of time. You could spend some time in the last year of that job hunting. If you want this job, absolutely go for it. But if you’re describing the thought of it as dreadful, then it’s probably not time to make the leap. Make the decision for you, not because of what your family/friends want.

    2. aiya*

      this doesn’t have to be a zero-sum decision. it’s not like the only two options for you are 1) to stay vs. 2) to go to this particular job.

      Do you work in a niche field where job openings are hard to come by? If so, I would put more weight into accepting this offer. If not, then you still have 3 years to continue “browsing” for the perfect opportunity before you move on.

      Would the salary increase at this new job be enough to compensate for the long hours? Would the salary increase provide a huge improvement in your quality of life? On the flip side, would the long hours and additional responsibilities make your quality of life worse, regardless of the extra income it provides? On an even more baseline level, does your current salary provide you enough to get by? Is there a financial urgency to move onto this offer?

      Agree with the other commenter that this is a decision that you have to make, not your friends and family. Make a list of what you actually value and need in a job, and then a pros/cons list of this new offer against those values.

      Again, unless you work in a niche field where job openings are rare, I think you can take comfort in the fact that you still have 3 more years to find your perfect next opportunity.

  110. Charlene*

    One of my team recently left and it was time for her to go. She had not been progressing in her work, complained all the time, when I asked her questions about things she’d go to lots of other people to figure out the answer, took no accountability for her errors, etc. So, I was not upset about it at all. I wished her well, said she’d be missed, and so on.

    Well, in her exit interview HR (a new HR person who didn’t know me nor the employee) asked her what we could do to make her stay to which the employee said she felt unappreciated and her work was not valued, etc. regardless of the fact that her work could have been better I routinely said thank you and good job when it was true. I’m not a gusher.

    My boss has recently changed some of my responsibilities without having a conversation with me about why and also left me off things that I normally would be on. I didn’t know about this exit interview at the time but the timing lines up.

    So I have a couple questions for you.

    1. Is it a normal question to ask “what could we do to make you stay?” If the manager doesn’t even want the person to stay? To be fair HR didn’t know this was the case but still.

    2. How do you balance out this “I don’t feel appreciated” with someone who ends to be more fawned upon than is your nature? For me I don’t need all that and maybe that’s the problem.

    3. Not that I will have the opportunity and I know most times it comes across very badly to do so…but how does one defend themselves in this situation? The person was an okay employee, not a superstar…I feel she got the level of appreciation that was deserved. She was known as someone who complained about everything. It’s her right to feel how she feels but I don’t think it’s completely fair.

      1. Skittles*

        (apologies, I cut myself off).
        It is not a bad thing this person left. They were underperforming and generally not happy in their role. A good decision by them to look for something they’d be more fulfilled by.
        Something to consider – would you say there’s anyone on your team who’s fulfilled/satisfied by their work, but also feels undervalued? Additionally, have you asked your team – both in open forum and anonymously – how they would rate their own perception of their value?
        Sometimes you’ll be restricted by your company by what perks you can’t offer (half days, team lunches, free tickets to sport games, raises/gift cards etc). But do consider what is available to you to keep showing you notice & care, and by what method the recipient may appreciate. A card; an email to a higher up that highlights their fantastic work (useful for the raise request); public praise; nomination for staff awards, etc.

    2. *kalypso*

      ‘Thank you’ and ‘good job’ are social grease – you can mean them effusively and genuinely but you say you were saying thank you when she’d done a good job. But because they are social grease, some people don’t see or hear them as genuine, especially in a work context where ‘thank you’ can mean ‘yes I got this document’ or just an autopilot acknowledgement that someone did the thing they have to do to get paid.

      But a degree above basic social grease is not fawning, and if you see it that way and are doing only the minimum of social grease because you don’t need more than that (emotionally, because you get paid, because you don’t process words emotionally or whatever) then it does leave room for people to feel unappreciated, or disincentivise them from investing effort and improving. If your thank you is like your ‘you’ll be missed’ when you clearly won’t, then she may have picked up on that and that contributed to her feeling unappreciated – so why would she bother progressing if she felt like you didn’t see her as a person, just an avenue to receiving work product? What’s wrong with her asking for other people for help, specifically? Can you pull out several times you addressed her specifically and not just ‘thanks this looks good’ on a report that you hadn’t read yet? Did you ever seek her out to work with her? Things like that are appreciation, but aren’t fawning.

      You might want to find out if she gave any examples to HR and look at your work style, and maybe check in with other reports to see how they’re getting along – ask if they want training! Is there anything you can knock out of the way of their doing their jobs? Can you get them any benefits or levy this to get your team some more recognition beyond just you?

      ‘What would make you stay’ is a normal question and it’s not just about getting someone to stay – at the company or in that role. It’s also about identifying parts of the work that might be unnecessarily frustrating, culture issues, what are the things that made someone look elsewhere? But by asking ‘what can we do to make you stay’ you’re spinning it so it looks like you’re invested in keeping them – it springboards into making someone feel valued and special in order to have the ‘how can we make you stay’ conversation, it’s saying ‘if we can do anything to make this less terrible, we will do that’ and conveying a willingness to engage and take action (sometimes this will be too late, but if it’s not, then it’s a start on tht process) and can make someone more inclined to speak up than they might have been without any signal that someone was genuinely listening.

      Sure, sometimes employees won’t say the real thing that’s bothering them, but sometimes you do get things like this where they identify an area that might affect more than just them, and then it’s about keeping everyone else, not (just) them. In this case, they have a manager who feels that someone saying they didn’t feel the company valued them is a personal attack they’re defensive over, and who it turns out keeps social grease as accurate statements of work quality and not just social grease.

      Like if you hated Grandma’s ugly sweater and accepted it, never wore it, and eventually ripped it out to use the yarn for a hot water bottle bolder, Grandma’s going to know you didn’t love it, especially if Cousin Jimmy gave you an amazing cashmere shawl that you wear everywhere and thank him for every fall when you bring out your winter woolies and feel the portable warm fuzzy cosiness all over again. You still love Grandma and visit her once a month and have a cup of tea and talk about the weather for half an hour, and you did thank her for the mittens last year, so she should feel appreciated, right? But you’re doing things that are just expected of a grandkid and social etiquette; Grandma realises you’re just doing that. You don’t have to be close, but if you saw a kitten plushie that looked like her childhood pet and grabbed it for her and said ‘thinking of you!’ every now and then, Grandma would feel like you like her for her and not just giving birth to a parent of yours, and wouldn’t see a stark difference between her and Cousin Jimmy to prove it.

    3. fhqwhgads*

      It’s a semi-normal question to ask, especially if the company is experiencing lots of turnover and genuinely want to get to the bottom of it. But then it’s not really about that one individual’s answer. It’s about looking for a pattern. And it’s pointless to ask of someone who resigned before they could be fired for underperforming (I’m not sure if this person was that bad but sort of get that impression from your post?). So I’d say HR kinda messed up here in bothering to ask that particular person, but not it’s not really a big deal either way. If you find yourself needing to defend yourself here – and you really shouldn’t be put in that position – the answer is “this person was underperforming and consequently received a lot of critical feedback and coaching; when their work was adequate they did receive feedback regarding that as well”. But don’t be defensive about it. Especially if you documented their previous issues, especially re: accountability, this is a non-issue and actually their response in the exit issue is another example of not owning up to anything. Like, if you complain all the time and shift your work to others, no shock that’s not appreciated. What’s to appreciate?

  111. Skittles*

    Hi all,
    A quick request for help on how to order my resume when I’ve returned to a previous company to continue doing contract work with them, but as a temporary measure whilst job hunting. The “Role 3” is the same daily duties in both time periods. See below for approximates:

    Company Bananas
    Role 1 (2019 – 2022), full time

    Company Apples
    Role 1 (2015), full time
    Role 2 (2016), full time
    Role 3 (2017-18), contract
    Role 3 (2023), contract

    Do I leave it as such? Thanks!

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Given how long it was between, I would stick with reverse chronological order as it’s easier to understand your most recent role. I also suggest reverse chronological order within listing for a given employer.

      Company Apples
      Role 3 (2023), contract

      Company Bananas
      Role 1 (2019 – 2022), full time

      Company Apples
      Role 3 (2017-18), contract
      Role 2 (2016), full time
      Role 1 (2015), full time

  112. Kate*

    So this will be LONG. AVP Deposit Ops knows I’m looking for “something different,” possibly outside my company. (I don’t know how, but pay and current management are 2 issues. current management has been around for 16 months, and it’s not getting better.) A supervisor (of another team under the AVP) and the AVP talked this week about me going to the other team. I was asked if I would want to join the other team. I said I needed to think about it. I was on that team before, and while I didn’t mind some things, there are things I don’t want to deal with again. Yesterday, I was told by the AVP she’d offer me a $1 an hour raise, but I’d lose my specialist title. I’m being told no pressure, but I feel pressured. I don’t want to move to that team. I also was told, “you’ve topped on the current team” but wasn’t told position wise or pay wise. (I doubt it’s pay related.) They think I’m bored with some of my current tasks, but who doesn’t get bored at times? My gut says the move isn’t worth it for $1 an hour more.

  113. Dragonfly7*

    I need some suggestions for job search keywords, in case staying where I am isn’t the right course of action for Mt mental health. Something repetitive that doesn’t involve much direct customer service sounds very soothing right now (light lifting and walking are just fine). Fulfillment? Assembly? My hometown has a position like this, but they mostly bused keywords unique to their industry.

  114. Chaos Coordinator*

    Any advice for getting a coworker to stop giving me daily updates on their dysfunctional relationship? This coworker and I are often the only two staff in the building on the days I work so it’s been difficult to escape. My workplace is very casual and most of us talk about our personal lives with each other to some extent (myself included), so I feel like the “let’s keep things professional at work” approach wouldn’t be a good option for this situation.

    1. SofiaDeo*

      But this does not mean that for whatever reason, you *must* listen to something that is upsetting/triggering. Maybe something along the lines of “Coworker, I’m sorry but I am not in a place where I can (listen? give advice? hear?) about (your relationship problems, things about you and X, Any relationship problems) , let’s change the subject.” IDK how “friendly” you are overall, so not sure if you want to modify it with a “…change the subject For Now” or if you want to just shut it down period, since if you say “right now” or “for now” IME it gets brought up at another time instead of just stopping. I will mention, I once had someone I thought was a “friend” who apparently was only interested in complaining at me; when I used a script like this the friendship ended. She got very offended I asked to stop listening to this specific complaint over and over. It turned out all she wanted to do was complain at me, so that was fine to end this so called friendship. If this coworker feels the same way, and only wants someone to complain at, they may stop chatting altogether, or become chilly even if discussing work stuff, or if you try to be neutral with “Good Morning, nice day huh?” or other neutral topics. But IMO if someone only wants to use you to “vent” at, instead of the give-and-take of most polite social interactions, it’s probably not a huge loss if they freeze you out completely.

    2. juneybug*

      I love asking the question, “So what are you going to do about that situation?”

      For example –
      Them: “My boyfriend is the worst…complaints…more complaints…and so on.”
      You: “That must be tough. So what are you going to do about that situation?”
      Them: stops talking and blinks like a deer in the headlights.
      Them: few seconds later “I don’t know.”
      You: “I am sure you will figure it out. Hey, how’s your garden doing?”
      Never hurts to have others figure out solutions for their own problems. Most of us know that venting non-stop does not fix anything.

      If the complaining still continues, you can try the “Have you talked to a profession about that?”

      Them: “My boyfriend is the worst…complaints…more complaints…and so on.”
      You: “This has been an on-going problem from what I hear. Sounds like you need to talk a professional about that.”
      Them: keeps talking about bad boyfriend.
      You: “Again, it sounds like a professional could help you figure out solutions more than I can as your co-worker. Since I can’t help, let’s talk about how your new doggie training is going.”

      Hope this works!!

  115. Silly Ducks*

    AVP Deposit Ops knows I’m looking for “something different,” possibly outside the current company. (I don’t know how.) A supervisor (under AVP) and AVPtalked Wednesday and yesterday. Supervisor asked if I would want to join her team. I said I needed to think about it. I was on that team before, and while I didn’t mind some of the work, there are a lot of things I don’t want to deal with again. After that meeting, AVP and my supervisor. Pain point is money, and they think other things are stemming from that. (Yes and no. mostly AVP’s management, which was long a pain point.) My supervisor says I shouldn’t feel pressure to say yes to moving. Yesterday morning, another meeting with them. If I move over there, I would get a $1 an hour raise, but I would lose my current title. However, I don’t want to move back there. AVP thinks I get bored where I’m at (sometimes I do, but who doesn’t sometimes?), and I’ve “topped out” on my team (which dhe didn’t clarify if it’s pay or position. I’m thinking position.). Again, there are a lot of things on the other team I don’t want to deal with again. I’m grateful they are offering a $1 raise, but I don’t believe this change will be worth a $1 more an hour.

    My gut says no, and I told my supervisor Friday but was told to take the weekend to think. I’m feeling pressured to move when I don’t want to. My team lead told me aboutthos posting when it posted, and I told her no. She was great about it and respected my answer.

  116. SofiaDeo*

    Don’t let them pressure you . “I appreciate the opportunity, but I am not interested in moving to that team right now.” Rinse and repeat. If they try raising the dollar amount of the raise to entice you, ask for an email confirming the offer. Stay firm, and if they up the $ enough for you to decide its worth the move, get the paperwork for the raise put through *before* switching teams. Don’t be pressured to switch unless and until you see this.

    Most workers are always open to changing jobs for something better, AVP Deposit Ops didn’t have to hear anything specific to assume you are looking at other opportunities. But if you made any kind of comment to anyone st work, tvst coukd be the source. If you updated anything on LinkedIn, or polished up/posted your resume on any job boards, that coukd be the source.

  117. Good problem to have*

    Work has been on the slow side lately, so I’ve been proactively working on Q3/Q4 projects but they’re starting to dry up. I’m thinking I’ll move onto process review and improvement, internal LinkedIn Learning type courses, and studying for industry exams. Any other ideas for looking busy in an open office? Sadly, AAM is a blocked website.

    1. wherestheheffalump*

      Writing/updating procedures/guidebooks? Business continuity/contingency planning?

  118. Pups & Politics*

    Hi! I’m the commenter who’s bad boss wouldn’t pay my friend/supervisor, and, according to my friend, threatened to fire me for being Autistic. I have s0me good news: I’m submitting my letter of resignation tonight!

Comments are closed.