boss got invited to our rowdy beach weekend, coworker is uncomfortable around my service dog, and more

by Alison Green on October 3, 2024

I’m off for a few days. Here are some past letters that I’m making new again, rather than leaving them to wilt in the archives.

1. One of our bosses got invited to our rowdy beach weekend

I am good friends with three of my coworkers, let’s call them Billy, Goat, and Gruff. The four of us are distributed across three different teams, but we work together a lot on various projects and also hang out with some regularity outside of work. As such, we are planning a big beach weekend getaway in August. We’ve all invited various friends, booked a giant house for the weekend, and have been making plans for a super fun, rowdy weekend of drunken shenanigans (as beach excursions tend to be).

Billy is also friends with Goat and Gruff’s boss, Gabby. Like us, Gabby is in her 30s, friendly, fun, lively, and would logically be friends with all of us if she weren’t Goat and Gruff’s boss. She has been to dinner and drinks with us, and on one occasion the whole group went back to Billy’s house to drink more beer and eventually play a well-known boundary-pushing party card game. We all had fun, but Goat and Gruff both left early-ish, and didn’t drink much (as you’d expect).

This is where it starts to go sideways. Billy, in a fit of generosity, invited Gabby to the beach weekend. Since then, Gabby has asked me for additional details and if there’s room for her to join. My hostess/planner self is screaming that Gabby really, truly cannot come. That there’s a world of difference between the equivalent of a rowdy happy hour with coworkers and a whole weekend of road-tripping, mostly-naked (swimsuits!) heavy-drinking shenanigans, communal living, and collective reckoning with rampant hangovers and sunburn. Regardless, what was a smooth-sailing fun weekend is now embroiled in office hierarchy drama.

It seems to me like my options here are a) ask Billy to tell Gabby not to come, and run the risk that he’ll blame it on Goat and Gruff for being spoilsports, b) be the bad guy myself and tell Gabby that she can’t come, blaming it on my delicate/old-fashioned sensibilities about mixing work dynamics (possibly damaging our relationship in the process), c) pray that she won’t attend, either because her schedule will prohibit or because her sense of decorum kicks in and she decides to bow out, or d) be a terrible hostess, stew in my own stress, and let things play out as they may. I could use some help figuring out how to approach this.

Gabby can’t come. It’s crossing too many professional boundaries for a manager to attend a “rowdy weekend of drunken shenanigans” with two people who report to her. Presumably, Goat and Gruff are going to have to be on guard if she’s there, and it’s just not the weekend you planned. Ideally you’d do choice A — have Billy tell Gabby he didn’t think it through and since it’s going to be a rowdy weekend, he shouldn’t have invited two of the organizers’ boss. If you don’t trust him to do that without blaming Goat and Gruff (despite your explicit instructions), then you need to move to choice B — deliver that message yourself. Do not just hope she won’t attend or suffer in silence.

But really, Billy messed this up and he should fix it.

Read an update to this letter here.

– 2019

2. My coworker is visibly uncomfortable around my service dog

I recently started bringing my service dog to work with me. I went through all the required processes with my supervisor and HR, and found out that one of my neighboring coworkers (I’ll call her Carol) is very scared of dogs. I said I was willing to move desks, but they said it would not be necessary. However, Carol avoids me and my dog, and even refuses to walk within a few feet of my dog. If we’re walking in a hallway towards each other, I have to duck behind a wall or Carol gets visibly scared. I would like to help her be more comfortable around my dog, but don’t want her to feel pressured or coerced. Do you or your readers have any suggestions?

For context, my dog is about 65 pounds and tall. So she doesn’t exactly blend in. I keep her well groomed to make sure she doesn’t smell or shed excessively. She’s very quiet and doesn’t make any fuss.

I don’t know that it’s your place to try to help Carol be more comfortable around dogs unless she expresses an interest in that on her own (although I certainly understand the impulse to want to!). But you could tell her that you’ve noticed she’s uncomfortable around your dog and ask if there’s anything you could do differently to make her more comfortable, or if there are any questions you can answer about your dog that might help put her more at ease.

You could also mention that you’d offered to move to a different desk but HR didn’t think it was necessary — but that you’d be willing to bring it up again if she’d like you to.

– 2018

Read an update to this letter here.

3. My coworker has panic attacks, and it’s affecting my work

I share an office with my coworker. She has panic attacks. When she has one, I have to leave the office until the attack passes. If I’m there or she isn’t alone, the attack won’t stop. We work with financial information and can only do work with the computer inside our offices. When I have to leave, I can’t do work because my computer is in the office (we all work in offices with doors and there is no way for anyone to ever bring work outside of their offices), and when she is having an attack she can’t do any work. We are always behind on work because she has an attack every two or three days.

Our boss says if we don’t start delivering more work on time, he’ll put us both on a PIP. My coworker asked me not to tell anyone about her attacks. I don’t want to out her but I don’t want to end up on a PIP. There aren’t any empty offices for me to move to and there isn’t room anywhere else because everyone, including my boss, is already sharing. The last thing I want is to out my coworker. No one else here knows about her anxiety or panic attacks and she feels bad about disrupting our work. I don’t want to make it worse. But I also don’t want to keep getting in trouble or ending up on a PIP. I can’t think of any way to get my boss to understand without outing her.

Yeah, you’re going to have to out her. It’s not reasonable for her to insist that you leave your work space like this, and one of you needs to let your boss know what’s going on.

I’d say this to your coworker: “Because this is now affecting my performance and is at the point where I could lose my job over it, I need to talk to Bob about another solution for our office space. To do that, I’ll need to explain to him what’s going on. Would you prefer to talk with him yourself first? I’m planning to talk with him tomorrow, so I wanted to give you a chance to speak with him first about your panic attacks if you’d like to.”

But then you do need to disclose to your manager what’s happening, and quickly (because the longer you let this go on, the more it’s affecting your work and the harder this may be to come back from). This isn’t gossiping about someone’s private health information. This is letting your manager know about a major reason for your slipping work performance. It sounds like your choices are to do that or risk getting fired for low performance, and it’s not reasonable for your coworker to expect you to do the latter.

– 2018

Read an update to this letter here.

4. Interviewer insisted I was uninterested in the job

A friend got me an interview with his company. It was going well until I met the senior manager; towards the end of the interview, he dismissed one of my questions about the work by saying “I don’t think you’re actually interested in this, I think you just want a job.” I didn’t respond very well, as I sat there in stunned silence while he gave me “job-hunting tips.” Should I have argued back with him? I’m in a field where getting in someone’s face is an acceptable negotiating tactic, but it felt out of place at an interview.

There are three possibilities here: (1) You really were coming across as if you weren’t that interested, and this guy was candid in response; (2) he’s just a jerk, or (3) he wanted to test you to see how you’d react (which is jerky if there was no reason for it but potentially not so jerky if the field really does require the ability to stay cool under hostile questioning, and if you don’t yet have a professional track record proving you can do that). You might be able to get a sense from your friend of which category this guy might fall into.

I don’t think you should have “argued back,” but I do think you should have calmly asked, “What makes you say that?” and then responded calmly to whatever he said.

– 2011

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{ 140 comments }

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  1. Daria grace*

    #4: I suspect this interviewer’s behaviour was very valuable indication about the workplace culture. If this is how they behave in interviews I suspect you’ll get a lot of exhausting policing about whether you’re really committed to/passionate about the company once on the job.

    1. Annie*

      “I think you just want a job,” he says, as though there’s something . . . wrong with that? Unless you were rolling your eyes and buffing your nails and checking your texts during your convo, OP, you were probably fine. Am I glad when candidates seem genuinely interested in our firm and our work when interviewing? Of course—that interest will help sustain them in our bananacrackers analysis field. Is “this person is well qualified for this role but doesn’t seem deeply vested in the culture/task/company” a dealbreaker? No—but it’s a great description of one of my crackerjack hires, who did consistently fantastic work for the two years she was on our team.

      1. ThatOtherClare*

        People work because it makes them feel good. Sometimes that’s ‘I find what I’m doing every day exciting’ and sometimes that’s ‘I love living in this town and this job enables me to do that’ and sometimes that’s ‘If I work here I won’t go hungry or lose my house’. But in the end, people just do what they want to do because they want to do it.

        Forcing people to do stuff they don’t want to do is a) really difficult and not worth the effort, and b) illegal; but that doesn’t mean it’s therefore impossible to find a highly competent plumber to unclog your toilet, say. Nobody is passionate about being arm-deep in sewage at 6 o’clock on Saturday night, but pay them appropriately and they’ll still be interested in taking the job and getting the best possible result for you.

        1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          There’s a big difference between wanting *a* job and wanting *this* job. And there are definitely times when someone does in fact want or need any job. But the interviewers may be concerned – say someone who is currently unemployed is applying for a job they’re massively overqualified for, or that’s a huge pay cut from their previous position – that people in that situation won’t stay very long.

          1. MK*

            Maybe so, but I don’t see how telling the candidate they don’t look enthusiastic enough solves this for the employer. And they can ask about them being overqualified without being obnoxious.

          2. Yadah*

            I also think there are some jobs that you’re going to actively struggle in if you’re looking for *a* job rather than *this* job.
            Plenty of jobs can just be *a* job.
            But some roles are really only a good fit for people who have a passion for the work or the mission.

      2. ASD always*

        It’s also a bizarre thing to expect when you don’t actually have the job. I am borderline-unhealthily emotionally invested in the process improvement stuff at my job, because I’ve spent the last seven years being irritated by the process. In year one it was still a stupid process, but I had zero passion for fixing it.

    2. Justin D*

      I’ve worked for two places that were really similar in this respect. I only got the “are you really interested” question at one and they still hired me. The other barely questioned me at all. But once the job started the one that grilled me wasn’t nearly as hard as the one that barely did. You had to care, and most did, but it wasn’t a regular thing. Whereas the other expected way more passion and interest in the company and the products we supported. I was not, I had no background in that and was just using my skills.

    3. Possibly OP #1*

      So, full disclosure, I have no memory of writing into AMA about this but it is possible that I did and the description of the interview plus the year it was published line up with what happened to me back then. As context, this was during peak recession in the legal industry when many brand new lawyers were stuck without jobs. I think this was a firm doing IP litigation or something along those lines which, to be fair to the interviewer, I had zero background in that field. On the other hand, I was a new grad, I had zero background in most fields. In retrospect, now with many more years of experience under my belt, I do think he wanted me to push back on him and argue my case (I have since worked in other firms where they want to see that kind of “fire” in an interview for a litigator, even though it’s a totally stupid way to hire and you just end up working with aggressive jerks).

      It was a really rough time but I did eventually get a job, and then over time changed jobs multiple times over the course of five years until I made my way to an actual good job and stayed there. Meanwhile my friend at that firm didn’t stay there very long either. Not a very interesting update but things did work out fine in the end.

      2. Carlie*

        Thank you for the update, and also for reassuring me that I am not the only person with a bad enough memory to be able to write in and then forget doing it!

  2. Priscilla Tells It Like It Is*

    Sorry Ms Recruiter, I know My Worth and I am Not No Charity. Thank you, next!

  3. duinath*

    The update to three that reveals if LW3 didn’t leave when their officemate asked she yelled and threw pens and markers at them is… Wow. Burying the lede, I’d say. I wonder if LW3 ever told their managers that tidbit.

    1. KateM*

      The update does say “my boss and HR were helpful once they found out about the yelling, name calling and throwing”.

    4. Nebula*

      Yes, definitely puts a different spin on the whole thing, not least the coworker saying to LW that she didn’t want anyone else knowing about these panic attacks.

    5. HonorBox*

      Indeed. On the one hand, I feel bad for the coworker and their panic attacks. Not only the frequency but also the lack of private space. But the fact that there isn’t a private space doesn’t entitle someone to evict someone else from a shared space and then get abusive if they don’t leave.

      There’s a huge difference in that work setup between asking for a couple of minutes because you need to call your bank, or your office mate recognizing that you need some privacy because you just got bad news on the phone and having to give someone space 2-3 times each week and being on the verge of a PIP.

    6. ecnaseener*

      Seriously! From just the original letter, I was confused how the impact on LW could be so huge as to put them in PIP territory (one extra break every 2-3 days, presumably short enough that no one’s noticed LW wandering the halls for an hour) but I’m sure they were also impacted by the stress of having a coworker yell and throw things at them and feeling like they had to keep that quiet.

      But then the update is also baffling, with the coworker somehow doing this to multiple people even though she presumably only has one desk. Was she going door to door when she felt an attack coming on?

      At any rate, I hope she’s doing better.

      1. Jackalope*

        That was my impression: when she felt a panic attack coming on, she would just go to people’s offices and tell them they needed to leave. It’s bizarre behavior but makes some sort of sense in context of the rest of the letter?

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          I thought it was if she was in somebody else’s office for a meeting with them or something. That whatever room she was in, she’d just insist others left. If she was going to people’s offices and telling them to get out, that’s even weirder than what I was imagining.

          1. Crest*

            Yeah that is some serious WTF nonsense going on. I’m not trying to gatekeep anyone’s mental health experience but even during my worst panic attack (including in shared offices), it never occurred to me to:
            1) kick my office mate out (let alone throw stuff at her!)
            2) go to other people’s offices and try to make them leave their offices!

      2. Michelle Smith*

        It sounds like yes, because the LW didn’t leave, the coworker was asking other people to give up their offices instead.

    7. SunnyShine*

      panic attacks aside, I’m surprised HR was okay with someone telling and throwing stuff at others. As nice as it is for the person, that really affects team moral.

      1. Elsewise*

        The update said she left pretty soon after the LW told management about what was going on, so I gather that maybe they weren’t!

  4. ThatOtherClare*

    #4 – Jobs for which ‘level of interest’ is vital for the role:
    – working with children
    – working with the elderly
    – working with people who are in vulnerable situations

    For anything else ‘The salary and benefits are what drives me to do a good job’ should be enough to get you good results. Pay people well in exchange for their best work and they’ll do their best work to retain the money. I’ll flawlessly put 110% of my effort into putting lids onto toothpaste tubes if you pay me $1000/hr and offer 12 weeks holiday per year. I’ll be the best gosh darn toothpaste capper you’ve ever seen if I don’t want to lose that role. I’ll be researching toothpaste on my lunch breaks and dreaming of little white lids.

    ‘Yes I will admit I’m not passionate about your mediocre corporate job. If I had enough money to live on I’d be giving my time and skills to a local charity who can’t afford to pay a living wage. I think you’ll find that’s an extremely common point of view, however. Would you like to engage in a transaction where you exchange some money for what I can do with my skill set, or shall we end the conversation here?’ (I don’t recommend ever actually saying that in an interview, you’ll look really weird and people will warn other employers about you, please don’t copy the snarky old lady, kids)

    It’s kind of pointless to pretend you’re not exploiting the fact that we don’t live in a post-scarcity society by lying to yourself that your employees are ‘passionate’ about the work (unless it’s the kind of work where people in a post-scarcity society would be doing it for free like firefighting or child speech therapy). Your social media manager isn’t actually passionate about shampoo, but she’s clever and she’s increased your engagement metrics by 140% in the months since you’ve hired her, so does it really matter?

    1. Jessica*

      Exactly. You’re paying her to make people care that you’re not paying. She doesn’t need to care, that’s not what you pay her for.

    2. abca*

      Are you confusing level of interst with passion? They are very different things and having interest in the specific job is a very normal expectation for a lot of jobs. Maybe not for jobs where people are trained in one specific thing, and it doesn’t really matter where you do that. Bookkeeping, admin, these kinds of jobs. But even there, you may be an admin who specifically likes working for one person, not an entire team for example. I’m in software development and we hired a frontend engineer. I wasn’t involved in hiring, but was expected to train him. When I asked why he applied for the job he said that he didn’t, he applied for a backend role in another team, and was offered this job instead. He even said “a job is a job, right”. He did the bare minimum for the job and after I spent a lot of time helping him he left for a new job in about a year. I don’t expect anyone to be excited about a job, but “a level of interest”, like “I like frontend development because it is the most visible part of an app, it is varied work, interacting with user experience, fast moving field, interesting technologies” and for the specific job something like “I look forward to having more varied tasks in a smaller team and working on an app that is used by millions of people” is not too much to ask.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Yes, all of this.

        Also I don’t think the example of working with vulnerable groups is a place where you’ll see passion show up as a must-have. In my experience a lot of those jobs are low paying and will sometimes just hire warm bodies to meet safety minimums. That’s not ideal but it’s how high-burnout and turnover fields often have to function.

        1. Justin D*

          I was a substitute teacher in my 20s and they didn’t even interview me. they just looked at my college transcript to verify that I had a degree and then told me the orientation date.

          1. Selina Luna*

            If you want to be a substitute now, it’s the same basic process. Places are really, really short on subs right now. My district is almost not hiring, except for subs and bus drivers.

          2. Irish Teacher.*

            In Ireland, substitutes are generally qualified teachers. Whether they are interviewed or not depends on how long the substitution is needed for and how urgent it is. If it’s something like a maternity leave, you’ll be interviewed and up to recently, they could be getting dozens of applicants. If it’s a case of somebody out sick for two days or somebody out due to a bereavement or something, they’ll just call somebody on their list, sometimes somebody who was shortlisted for a previous job or sometimes just somebody who sent in their CV asking to be considered for substitution work.

            And subs are paid much the same as permanent teachers here. Well, they are usually paid hourly but it comes out about the same.

      2. Colette*

        Agreed. If you’re not at all interested in a job, you’re not going to do it well, and that’s absolutely something to screen for (although people generally don’t do that well). That doesn’t mean you’d do the job for free.

        I’d also argue that saying that working with children, the elderly, and vulnerable people are the only jobs where interest matters is one of the reasons those jobs tend to be poorly paid.

        1. YetAnotherAnalyst*

          I don’t know if that’s true. I have little to no interest in my job, either the specific tasks I do daily or the industry I’m in, but I’ve done it for over a decade now and have consistently gotten glowing reviews. What I am interested in is the paycheck, the work from home flexibility, and the general stability of long-term employment. I’d argue that not being interested has actually been one of my greatest assets – it makes no difference to me if I’m on Project A or Project B, so I end up picking up work wherever the team needs it, and I’ve ended up credited with process improvements across the board and a reputation for flexibility and reliability in a pinch

          1. Colette*

            I think you’re defining interest differently than I am.

            By “interest”, I don’t mean a strong preference between project A and project B, I mean caring about doing your job well, improving processes, and seeing the value in what you are doing.

            1. Unkempt Flatware*

              Nah. Plenty of people do well while having no interest in their jobs. You’re just saying you don’t. I’ve had jobs where I had no interest but I did a great job because I care about my reputation.

            2. Tea Monk*

              Ah, that’s true. With vulnerable people. you should care about doing well, although there should be a balance- if you care too much, there can be a lot of burn out.

            3. YetAnotherAnalyst*

              I think interest of that sort goes towards doing “a” job, not doing any specific job, at least for me. There are certainly jobs I’m interested in, that do meaningful, interesting work, but the pay is unlivable. But I think a lot of people can do well at jobs where they would literally rather sit in the dentist’s office all day, just out of baseline professionalism and a vague sense of camaraderie.

      3. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

        I’ve seen software engineers do good work in, say, full-stack development when what they wanted to do was DevOps, because that was what was available when they were searching, but I’ve never seen a software engineer or someone in adjacent subfields (sysadmin, etc.) do good work without an intrinsic interest in and almost obsession with technical problem-solving.

        1. Hush42*

          This. When I ask candidates why they applied for the job they are interviewing for I am looking for people who want to do administrative work, or work where a lot of their day is talking to people, or whatever the bulk of that job is. I *know* very few people are looking to specifically work in my industry and the exact roles I hire for. What I don’t know is why you want to do this vs. Sales vs. IT vs. fixing cars etc. I have had people tell me that they applied for one of my open roles because they really want to do Outside Sales so they thought that my team, who does sales support and order processing, would be a good foot in the door. However, in my experience being in Sales and supporting sales takes two practically opposing personality types. If you want to be doing outside sales it probably means you will hate the jobs on my team. The reverse is true as well- there is no amount of money that would ever entice me to do Sales. I would hate every minute of it and just be miserable. But if you told me that you were really interested in administrative work but were hoping to one day move to our finance team I would certainly consider you as a candidate because the roles are similar. And before anyone says that they fact that they applied means that they are interested in the job I am hiring for, I can tell you with 100% certainty that that is not true. The number of candidates I have talked to who very clearly were just applying to everything without reading anything is mind boggling.

    3. Rebecca*

      As someone who works with children, the salary and benefits drive me to do well.

      I really love my job, but that’s almost irrelevant. My job is to develop relationships with students that help them to meet their academic goals – I don’t have to like doing that to do it well.

      The push for people in caring professions to love the people they are caring for both undermines the actual professional skills and experience they have to have to be able to do it well and creates a culture where they are vastly underpaid. Caring doesn’t pay my rent.

      I have three degrees and 18 years of experience and people want to pay me the same amount as the babysitter because I love their kids. Look to the teacher shortage in the states that pay their teachers 30K a year to see how much caring kept them doing their job well vs salary and benefits.

      1. kjinsea*

        Thank you! The whole “people who care should be willing to work for less because they care!” so so frustrating. It is also fairly sexist- look at ‘caring’ professions and most are female-dominated and poorly paid

    4. ecnaseener*

      Not sure I agree with you, on two points:

      – I don’t think working with vulnerable populations should be an exception. Interest in the work isn’t enough to keep people from burning out and in some cases taking out their stress on their charges.

      – I believe you that you would give 110% with the toothpaste tubes, but I for one would not. Extrinsic motivation alone only goes so far for me (and, research shows, with many people in many situations). I’ll always do better if I find the work satisfying in some way. So this might be one of those things where the hiring process puts an unfair burden on half of the population, but if I’m a hiring manager I’m probably not going to take the risk of believing a candidate who claims they’ll do a great job without any intrinsic motivation.

      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        Yeah, I was thinking that even at $1k/hour and 12 weeks of vacation a year, I’d be unlikely to last very long with the toothpaste tubes. A few weeks? Maybe a few months if I could listen to audiobooks? But at some point there just would not be enough money in the world to make up for how monumentally BORED I’d be. Especially once I’d racked up enough hours to have the equivalent of my now-annual salary in the bank, or maybe twice that. (Weirdly, I could probably hack it longer at LESS money, if I really needed the money, because “I need to put these lids on the toothpaste tubes to eat supper tonight” would be a lot more motivating to me than “every hour I spend putting lids on toothpaste increases my total wealth,” especially as the fraction compared to the whole got smaller and smaller.)

        Intrinsic motivation can be weird — someone who doesn’t care about toothpaste but feels some slight sense of satisfaction having the lids lined up neatly on the tubes might be able to parlay that into a sense of satisfaction with the work, but it wouldn’t be anywhere near enough for me.

    5. Gyne*

      Can you elaborate on why you think firefighters and speech pathologists would (or should?) work for free?

      1. ASD always*

        I don’t think they should be, but volunteer firefighters are already very much a thing in many places.

      2. Lexi Vipond*

        I don’t know why those specifically, but I think the idea is that you’re paid a wage just for existing, and then choose what you want to do with your time

      3. Joielle*

        I didn’t post the original comment but I think they were saying that in a hypothetical future society where people don’t have to work for money, those are jobs that people would choose to do anyways.

    6. Humble Schoolmarm*

      I see where you’re coming from, but I also very much work for pay and benefits. The interest in what I do is why I don’t spend more time seriously looking for an equivalent paying job filling out TPS reports, but because my work involves so much time and effort, being paid appropriately to enjoy what spare time I do have is essential. Teachers have been manipulated for about a century not to complain about their working conditions because “It’s for the kids”. I’m really proud to see more and more teachers standing up for themselves and saying I deserve respect, reasonable workload and a living wage.

  5. Empress Ki*

    2 : Cynophobia (fear of dogs) isn’t being “uncomfortable”, it’s being uncontrollably scared of dogs. When I first read the titles, I assumed I was going to read about a difficult co-worker who simply doesn’t like dogs.

    I am uncomfortable around flies, but I’d piss my pants if a dog approaches me. The last thing I want is someone trying to get me “comfortable” around their dog. Please, don’t try that !

    Carol should ask as a reasonable accommodation to be allowed to get a desk away from you, but the request probably has to come from her. The only help you can give is to walk away from her as much as possible in hallways,

    1. 1-800-BrownCow*

      There is a link to an update to that letter. LW #2 never did ask Carol anything. Basically the company and HR treated LW #2 badly and they eventually left the company for a better job, better pay and better accommodations for their service dog. And they hoped Carol was doing better as well now that LW and their service dog were no longer around.

      1. Lenora Rose*

        I thought the update sounds like they did ask Carol, and Carol didn’t want to do anything because HR was absolutely bananapants in their sheer ablism.

  6. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    #3 There’s being kind and there’s being self-sacrificing. Don’t be the latter at work. Extraordinary that OP3 allowed this to continue to her own obvious detriment for so long.

    My rule was not to inform the employer about coworker issues provided that didn’t affect my own work, e.g. job-hunting, or surfing, dress, time-keeping.
    However, this health issue did affect the OP’s work, massively.

    I would never endanger my job, merit rise, career or reputation for a coworker. The very first time this happened, I would have gone to my manager to ask whether they wanted me to leave the office – and my work, because delaying or not completing a task must be their decision, not mine (and it was obvious this would be an ongoing issue.)

    Of course, I’d never mention say having to work an extra hour for a one-off health issue., because that’s just my time.

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      and of course I’d have to tell the manager it was a panic attack and about objects being thrown; otherwise they would likely think I was being absurd, saying I left the office and stopped work because my coworker told me to.

      1. KateM*

        “I left the office because my coworker starts throwing stuff on me if I don’t” sounds like a pretty good reason to talk to boss.

        1. HonorBox*

          “I’m also being asked to leave our office 2-3 times each week for ____ amount of time” is a solid reason as well.

    2. Artemesia*

      This. but I understand an inexperienced person not knowing how to handle this — Me, I am not that nice. The first time she threw stuff and yelled I would have been straight to the boss to resolve this.

      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        The OP is being exceptionally kind and I agree her inexperience meant she didn’t realise the inevitable fallout that would land on her.
        Like you, I’ve never been that nice :)

        imo another factor may be that some women are still socialised to think they must put others first, even to their own detriment. That can also get mixed up with the message that we must all make nice and get along with coworkers.

        1. Alicent*

          Or you’ve worked in enough messed up places that you feel like reporting bad behavior is just going to blow right back in your face. I had that happen with a sexual harassment claim once and I definitely hesitated before going to HR ever again (I also had someone sabotaging me behind my back because I got a letter of recommendation they wanted; when I transferred locations it was amazing how bad stuff stopped following me!).

      2. Mallory Janis Ian*

        We had a person at an old job who was yelling and cursing at everyone in a fit of rage, and one person quietly slipped off and immediately got our boss’s boss, who came up front and was able to witness the behavior in person. He immediately stepped in, took control of the situation, escorted her back to his office and then subsequently out the front door with a box of her stuff.

      3. Jackalope*

        I think it’s also something that would be easy to get stuck with. For example, the first time the coworker had an attack and asked the OP to leave, it might have seemed like a one-off. And maybe it wasn’t until a few iterations in that the coworker threw pens or yelled. At some point in time the OP should have talked to her boss, I agree, but it’s awkward when you’re already accidentally in a pattern, but also you want to be kind and accommodating to someone’s health issues. As someone who was raised (as a woman, unsurprisingly) to be accommodating of the needs of others and not make it awkward, it’s surprisingly difficult to overcome that training.

    3. Clisby*

      I agree – I was baffled by this when I read the original letter. I’d probably be so alarmed by someone having a panic attack that I’d immediately report that she needed some kind of medical help.

  7. ElliottRook*

    I just have to say re LW #2: I share Carol’s fear. I have it to a more extreme degree, if she was able to be in the same building. If I were approached by a coworker with a service dog with the idea to “get more comfortable” it would probably send me into a meltdown, make me fear losing my job for not being able to “cooperate” with that idea, and at the very least I’d have to go home for the day–and I’m thinking of just receiving this as a chat or email, I can’t imagine how awful the reaction would be if the coworker physically approached me with the dog in tow.

    But then I would’ve locked/barricaded myself in the closest room at first sight of the dog and not come out so long as it was still in the building, unless it was put behind a different locked door while I left the building. It would definitely become a case of dueling accommodations–I simply would not be able to be in the building so long as the dog was present, period. I know Alison has said in the case of pet dogs at the office, human needs (phobias and allergies) have to come first, but I’m not sure how it would play out with a service dog.

      1. Reluctant Mezzo*

        But people who are terrified are just not being team players! (huge sarcasm) Or so they are so often told.

    2. MarsJenkar*

      I wanna say Alison has discussed competing accommodations in the past. I don’t remember exactly what it entails but my guess would be that a healthy company would at least try to find desks where the LW and Carol wouldn’t encounter each other nearly as often.

  8. Personal responsibility starts with me*

    multiple of these letters got me fired up as an oh my how can you not see the obvious…but…especially the panic attack one…it is your office too, and in a shared space if someone wants to be alone it is their job to find an alone place, not yours to leave. She doesn’t get to have a private office just because she wants it and you’ve been letting her even though it means you cannot work…essentially you are taking extraneous breaks that are not allowed via policy and not only that it’s impacting your ability to do your job, so no kidding your boss is upset. Seems pretty clear the answer is first stand up for yourself and ask her to leave if she wants to be alone, and it may be awkward not doing it in the initial PIP conversation but whether you tattle about the panic attacks or not, you certainly should make it known that your coworker refuses to share the office which is why your work isn’t done. While it clearly doesn’t completely take the blame away from you since you could have said no or involved help sooner, having that piece of explanation makes it clear you have a communication deficit rather than a laziness problem which may help frame what goes into the PIP…and provides insight that your coworker also needs a taking to that this space is shared and she needs to be the one to leave if she needs alone time. Yikes…

    1. londonedit*

      It might ‘seem pretty clear’ but as Artemesia and Retired Vulcan say just above, there are many reasons why someone without much job/workplace experience might not know what to do. If a colleague is telling you not to disclose their medical/mental health condition, and you’re not sure whether going against their wishes might get either them or you in trouble/potentially cost your colleague their job/etc, then you might just think you can’t speak up, or it’s better not to. And then you find yourself under threat of a PIP anyway, because you’ve been covering for your colleague. Many people find themselves in sticky situations through ‘trying to do the right thing’. Especially young women, as Retired Vulcan points out, because many young women are brought up with the idea that we shouldn’t make a fuss, we shouldn’t cause trouble, and we must put others first.

      It’s the same with the ‘why don’t people just use their words’ argument – in many situations ‘using your words’ might lead to conflict, or an escalation in the situation, or having to share an office with someone who actively hates you because they asked you not to tell the boss they have panic attacks and you went against their wishes. It’s not as simple as it might look on the surface when you’re the person actually having to deal with something like this.

      1. Personal responsibility starts with me*

        I don’t think you read my entire reply but picked and chose what parts to read and reply to. I definitely understand the stay under the radar feeling as someone with social anxiety and PTSD, however I never said I’d recommend outing the anxiety attacks the coworker is having. I recommended that if she wasn’t getting her work done, then at the point of being threatened with a PIP the explanatory factor of being asked to leave the office should have come up. In fact I would really recommend not bringing up these anxiety attacks because the tension that could cause of the coworker found out could make getting work done even more difficult or further damage the coworker relationship. If the boss wants to ask the coworker why she is trying to kick people out that’s her prerogative, but I agree that the health information shouldn’t come from anyone but the person with the health condition.

        1. londonedit*

          I did read your response, actually. The point is that the OP themselves said they weren’t sure what to do because they didn’t know how to discuss the issue with their boss without ‘outing’ the colleague, which they’d been specifically asked not to do. You can imagine that if the OP went to the boss and said ‘Jane is making me leave the office several times a day, and I can’t get my work done and that’s why we’re falling behind’, the first thing the boss would say is ‘Why on earth is Jane making you leave? Why aren’t you just staying at your desk? What’s going on here?’ And then what does the OP do? There isn’t really a way to fully explain what’s going on without saying ‘Jane is having panic attacks and whenever it happens she makes me leave the office or she throws things at me and yells’. Of course, that’s what the OP ‘should’ do, but people are often caught between a rock and a hard place – in this case, the OP is caught between not wanting to get into trouble and not wanting to go against the colleague’s wishes.

      2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        Being conflict-avoidant often results in greater conflict later on.
        It is always best to tell your manager immediately if something or someone is interfering with your work:

        1) because of the “no surprise and no secrets” rule to avoid pissing off your manager
        2) because when you hide things for any significant, you risk being punished for keeping quiet about something you should have reported.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I guarantee you many of these things aren’t obvious to everyone – in fact people may actively disagree with you on some of these points.

    3. blueberry muffin*

      As a longtime worker bee, I would add that the concept of accommodations for employees (be they formal or unofficial) is very present in the US work ecosphere now in ways I don’t recall seeing in my early working career. I am not saying they did not exist. I am saying the expectation that they be honored seems very pervasive now such that people do worry about saying no.

      A co-worker asking another co-worker not to share with management about a medical condition is not unusual. A co-worker being willing to honor that request is not unusual.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Yes, and that’s very stressful for some people because as you say it’s relatively new and there’s a legal aspect to it. People know accommodations are a thing, and that people need to be supported at work, but they don’t know the nuance or what their personal responsibilities are – especially if you’re not a manager or HR. So the default is often “give the person what they say they need”.

        I’m not saying that’s good, because OP deserves a safe and consistent working environment, but it’s a normal growing pain as we (rightfully!) normalize different needs in the workplace.

      2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        An accommodation should always be agreed with management first, unless it is something trivial you can do without it interfering with your work.

  9. HailRobonia*

    Sounds like Carol, despite her fear, was more accepting of your dog and accommodations than the rest of the office.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I agree. I’m impressed Carol handled it so well, honestly. Having to work feet from something you’re actively afraid of would be a deal breaker for a lot of people.

      1. Abigail*

        Competing accommodations is very difficult.

        It’s even more difficult when animals are involved.

    2. learnedthehardway*

      Agreed. I’m appalled at HR and management of that company. Carol seems to have done her best to manage her phobia, but would have benefited from competent management to help guide her.

      I’m glad the OP found a better role in a better company.

    3. Jennifer Strange*

      Yeah, in that one I feel bad for both Carol AND the LW as they clearly were both trying to make the best out of a tough situation, but were getting absolutely no help from the folks who were supposed to be helping them.

  10. HonorBox*

    No pun intended but woof… the management and HR situation in the second letter is going to be extremely costly for that company if someone ever decides to pursue some sort of legal action. I guess people can believe whatever they want, but you can’t let your own personal beliefs overrule laws. Maybe people in management and HR don’t support service animal accommodations themselves, but you can’t then believe that any doctor who provides documentation for that accommodation is a quack and look at the employee sideways.

    1. bleh*

      Truth. I have employees who are in the minority of people who work the system for accommodations they do not need. Trust me on this one; they admit it in non-ADA rooms. Yet, they would win a lawsuit because they have doctors willing to say they need more than they do. (They do need something) Do I have a conversation with the ADA people? Yes. Do I fight the accommodation completely? Nope. Better that people who need it get accommodations than that I “win” this petty battle. Although, in reality, it is a hardship to my unit of the organization. But the larger entity worries more about the liability than us having everything covered properly. I just have to fill in the cracks, and their colleagues pay the price.

    2. Jeanine*

      Ok I am aghast at the update….wow! The rules around a service dog are very simple. They only need to ask if it is a service dog and what tasks they perform, and that’s it. They don’t need documentation or a vest or any of that. And they have to allow it. The way disabled people are treated is beyond criminal. I feel bad for Carol because I grew up being very afraid of dogs due to being bitten when I was a kid. But I have gotten better with age and I am not afraid of what I know to be a service dog, because they are very well trained and will not bite anyone. I’m sorry she couldn’t get that thought going instead.

      1. Jennifer Strange*

        I know you’re not trying to be, but as someone who has seen some supposed “service dogs” misbehave (that is to say, behave like regular dogs) saying “Oh, they’re a service dog so you shouldn’t be afraid!” is bit dismissive (and I say this as someone who loves and is very comfortable around dogs!). In the LW’s case it sounds like the dog was a true service dog who had been properly trained, but for someone who suffers from a phobia of dogs a) there is no way for them to know for certain that the dog has been properly trained (and they can’t just take someone’s word for it) and b) even if the dog is a properly trained service dog, that doesn’t really address their fear.

  11. Yes And*

    LW3: I confess to not fully understanding the extent of when employers are and are not required to make reasonable accommodations for disability, but it seems like regularly recurring panic attacks would apply. If so, wouldn’t have disclosing her condition also have been in Carol’s best interest? And wasn’t the eventual outcome (as described in the update) kind of illegal?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Regular panic attacks are covered by the ADA but no the outcome was not illegal.

      Accommodations are a conversation, not a demand. You still need to be able to do the essential functions of your job, and you cannot pose an undue hardship on your employer. You cannot throw anyone out of their office, or throw office supplies at them. It sounds like the boss offered a number of alternatives, all of which would’ve been reasonable. Put a do not disturb sign on the conference door if it doesn’t lock, for example. These were largely workable solutions.

      But her behavior would have warranted disciplinary action regardless of the accommodation conversation – and we don’t know if that even happened, necessarily. There are a lot of details OP doesn’t know. Nothing described is illegal though, and the outcome doesn’t raise red flags with the rest of the context.

    2. Colette*

      Making other employees leave their office & their work is likely not a reasonable accommodation. Moving to a bigger space so she can have a private office probably isn’t, either. Letting Carol take some time in the bathroom or kitchen would be, but she didn’t want to do that.

    3. ecnaseener*

      Re “wouldn’t disclosing have been in Carol’s best interest” – maybe, maybe not. Disclosing anything stigmatized, including pretty much anything mental health related, is risky. I don’t blame Carol for not wanting to take that risk. (Which is not to say the way she handled the situation was okay!) Just look at the update to the service dog letter — pushing out a disabled person because you don’t like their legitimate accommodation is of course illegal, but it happened nonetheless.

      1. Tea Monk*

        Yes. While my panic attacks are more immobilizing than anything, I get them often and in an atmosphere of ” people say they have mental health problems but they are just lazy ” or ” why are those drug addicts lying and saying they have ADHD” , I don’t go ” yo! I have mental health issues

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          And I do, because I know I’m a high performer and if I say “hey, yo, not cool” I get either shock or embarassment more than I get side eye. But everyone should know their own comfort and risk tolerance when it comes to that, and no one should be pressured to share more than they want to. But if you’re not going to share, that doesn’t mean people have to tolerate the impacts on them without comment, which is where OP was over-cautious.

    4. MK*

      What constitutes reasonable accommodation is entirely dependent on the specific case, but having a condition that allows you to ask for accommodation doesn’t mean you can’t get fired and can do whatever you want. She wasn’t fired for having panic attacks, but for being hostile to her coworkers, lying about what she was allowed to do and ask and, as far as I can tell, low productivity. The employer is expected to accommodate the employee within reason, and allowing her to leave her office and use another room fits the bill. If the only thing that would satisfy her was a private office, or an officemate that leaves whenever she asks them, I don’t know that the employer would be obligated to do that. And it sounds as if she was underperforming even when OP left; accommodations are supposed to make you able to do your job, not for cases where that’s not possible even with accommodations.

    5. Jackalope*

      Just as a clarification for the discussion: Carol was the coworker with a dog phobia. The coworker with panic attacks wasn’t given a name in the letter.

    6. Hyaline*

      You are certainly entitled to reasonable accommodations for your panic attacks but I’m pretty sure those accommodations cannot include being downright nasty and abusive to coworkers…the update says she *threw stuff* which. No. It seems she was offered accommodations but chose not to utilize them.

    7. Jeanine*

      Yeah disclosing her panic attacks would have been a way better route to go. They have to at least get into the discussion process for accommodations. And I know firsthand how awful it is to not be able to find any kind of private space because it’s all open concept and every little meeting room is glass and you feel like you’re in a big fishbowl. Throwing things is not a good way to act for sure but I can kind of see how it kind of got there when dealing with anxiety.

    8. Pay no attention...*

      She did eventually disclose her panic attacks and they tried to accommodate her with reasonable solutions that didn’t involve the OP, or anyone else, being abused and prevented from doing their work. But even with accommodations, if the panic attacks were so frequent and so severe and uncontrolled that the employee isn’t really capable of doing her own job, they don’t have to keep her employed. It’s also incumbent on the employee to seek or follow medical treatment if necessary.

      As another example, let’s say a bus driver has diabetes, but it’s poorly controlled and they have had several hypoglycemic events while driving. The company can accommodate them with FMLA time to get medical treatment to bring their diabetes into control, or allow more scheduled breaks to test blood sugar or eat/drink if safe to do so, but they don’t have to let them keep driving with uncontrolled diabetes, or stop doing the essential functions of bus driving. If the bus driver refuses to seek or follow medical treatment, they can be fired.

  12. Panicky Pete*

    #3 While I always want to give the benefit of the doubt, I can reasonably say from your letter and especially the follow up that your coworker was not having an actual, medical panic attack. Now she may have been in distress, incredibly uncomfortable, or dealing with an undiagnosed anxiety disorder, but a panic attacks are debilitating. As in, it would take a herculean effort for someone undergoing a panic attack to “yell or throw pens or markers at [you].” It would even be quite difficult for her to ask you in coherent sentences to leave the office. I risk coming off harsh here as people misuse the term “panic attack” all the time and it makes it harder for friends of mine, those actually suffering the condition, to address it with others.

    If we want to be overly charitable and say your coworker was having the most mild form of panic attacks ever medically recorded, it is still unacceptable that she put the burden on you and your other coworkers. She no only refused an ambulance but was having these attacks so frequently that its likely she was not seeking medical attention for them. There are multiple therapies and medications people can use to mitigate these. It is not her fault she suffers from this but it is her responsibility to manage it. Imagine if she had a panic attack while commuting!

    1. SimonTheGreyWarden*

      This. I only had actual panic attacks at two periods in my life – once when my partner underwent a sudden medical emergency and nearly died; I had them for a while after that. The other was when I had to stop a medication I was on for something else cold-turkey because of other side effects. There’s no way I could have yelled, thrown things, or really even interacted with another person while they were happening.

    2. ecnaseener*

      This is neither appropriate nor helpful. There are many possible symptoms of a panic attack, of which only four are needed to reach the DSM’s diagnostic threshold, so whichever symptom you’re thinking of that would prevent a person from yelling or throwing a pen, it’s possible to have a legitimate panic attack without that. (eg palpitations, chest pain, trembling, derealization – that’s a panic attack.) Adrenaline and the associated fight-or-flight response are part of any panic attack. It does no one any good to armchair-undiagnose incorrectly.

      As for refusing an ambulance — what’s so strange about that? An ambulance is a very expensive trip to the ER waiting room for something that will pass on its own.

      Finally, “was having these attacks so frequently that its likely she was not seeking medical attention for them” — speaking as someone who sought medical attention for frequent panic attacks for several months without seeing improvement, it’s not that easy.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Agreed. And if these weren’t actually panic attacks but were technically something else caused by something other than panic attacks (someone in the follow-up comment section mentioned they have similar attacks caused by PTSD), that doesn’t matter anyway. The advice is the same. Whatever was going on with this coworker, she obviously had medical issues that needed to be accommodated, but what she was asking OP to do was far beyond reasonable accommodations. I hope she has gotten treatment and is in a better place now, because whatever she was going through sounds really awful.

      2. Bee*

        Right, why on earth go to the ER for something where you know what it is and that it’ll pass (possibly before you’re even seen by a doctor, given ER wait times) and that they can’t do very much for you anyway? (Side note, they must have exceptionally good insurance if the ambulance is covered – I’ve always had pretty good policies and even then the ambulance is only covered if you’re admitted to the hospital, which you would not be for a panic attack.) She was behaving unacceptably but refusing an ambulance was not among the unacceptable behaviors.

        1. Aww, coffee, no*

          My sister, for some years, had a chronic condition that would sometimes cause her to almost lose consciousness and look dreadful, but it would pass within a couple of hours if she could just sit somewhere quiet.
          She’d always decline an ambulance – and we’re in the UK where it wouldn’t have cost her anything.
          Her point was that it was a waste of her time and NHS resources, plus she then had to get back to work (so she could get her car) from the hospital at her own cost and further loss of time.

        2. Coverage Associate*

          Yeah, blanket ambulance coverage and no deductible or co insurance.

          Maybe there’s something unusual going on because it’s at work? Like the employer has very good worker’s compensation insurance? Worker’s compensation wouldn’t usually cover a condition not caused by work (and workers compensation for anything psychological is always hard) but I can imagine a policy that covers any ambulance reasonably requested by a manager for any employee experiencing a medical event.

    3. Jackalope*

      This is a good example of why we shouldn’t diagnose strangers on the internet. Panic attacks can have a wide range of symptoms, and we don’t know what the coworker’s symptoms were or what her experience was like. Is it sketchy that she could throw pens and yell at the same time? Maybe, but still not our job to figure out as internet strangers at a great remove from the situation. Especially since it doesn’t affect the advice to the OP.

    4. bamcheeks*

      I agree about the throwing things and shouting, but is rejecting an ambulance really surprising? I don’t think I’d know anyone who has panic attacks who would appreciate having an ambulance called (and I’m in the UK where ambulances don’t cost the patient anything) because there is very little effective medical help that a paramedic can provide in the moment.

      1. londonedit*

        Yeah, I thought it was fairly well-known that there isn’t much medically that can be done for a panic attack. I have a couple of friends who have suffered panic attacks a few times, and they wouldn’t call an ambulance firstly because it’s likely the attack will have subsided before the paramedics arrive, and secondly because there isn’t much medical staff can actually do. If it’s the person’s first ever panic attack and they have no idea what’s going on and they think they’re having a heart attack/asthma attack or whatever, then of course, but someone who has regular experience of panic attacks will be able to spot the signs and I think they’d be unlikely to want an ambulance to be involved. I don’t think that shows anything in terms of whether the panic attacks are ‘real’ or not (and really, we’re meant to take letter-writers at their word, and if the OP was told by the colleague that it was panic attacks then that’s all she’ll have had to go on).

    5. Cat Tree*

      This is just incorrect. I had severe, near-constant panic attacks for years and I was able to talk during them. They were so frequent that it became “normal” for me and I learned how to live my life around them including going to class, grocery shopping, etc.

      Is it really so hard to understand that different people experience things differently? And if you think my panic attacks weren’t “real”, you’re wrong. I had a medical diagnosis from doctors who know a lot more about it than you.

    6. Somehow I Manage*

      Great point. And while it may come across harshly, I sometimes have a hard time with someone who won’t seek help. Yes, there are barriers to getting help. There are stigmas. All true. But if you’re having them this often, and putting yourself and a coworker in position to be put on a PIP, it is imperative to advocate for yourself.

      I’ve had one panic attack in my life, and I can assure you there would have been no ability to throw a pen, call names or anything. I’d just had surgery and was having trouble breathing. I couldn’t communicate with nurses effectively, which spiraled things downward. I ended up having a CT scan because they feared I’d had a blood clot enter my lungs. I know exactly what happened now, but in the moment, there was no clear thought.

    7. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

      > Imagine if she had a panic attack while commuting!

      I think you meant to say “driving”, yes? Commuting is just getting to work and lots of folks (including me) use transit for that.

      1. Humble Schoolmarm*

        I could see commuting (as in transit) actually being more of an issue for the co-worker. Her issue seems to have been a drive to seek privacy for the attack to pass. In a car you could (probably, usually) find a corner of a parking lot. If you’re screaming and throwing things at the people around you on a bus or train, it’s going to be way more disruptive. I could see the result being anything from being kicked off to arrested depending on the level of violence.

    8. Panicky Pete*

      Many thanks to those of you sharing how terrible panic attack are. I hope they remain in the past, you never experience another one, and eventually even forget your experience.

      Many others are grossly misinformed and are missing the crucial point that a panic attack makes the sufferer feel they are mere moments from death. It is such a horrifying experience that bystanders get PTSD.

      The intended advice to #3 and us all is that accurately recognizing what is occurring enables us to help others and get them the accommodations they need. Unfortunately we also must be aware those who misrepresent themselves and take advantage of our good nature to protect our own well-being and careers.

      Finally, there is zero intent to diminish the many other horrible things folks suffer from nor the care and accommodation they need. Many in the comments are in pain but they are not having panic attacks. We must address these falsehoods as they actively harm sufferers of panic attacks with this misrepresentation.

      PS: some small points to clarify:

      Many seized on the ambulance dismissal. This is not invalidating on its face but you must understand that someone suffering a panic attack isn’t waiting for it to pass or worried about wasting time on ineffective immediate therapies. Sufferers will do anything to make a panic attack stop. After having one, they seek all therapies and medications prevent reoccurrence while living with an ever-present fear it can reoccur. Simply put, this is cancer level of seriousness with regard to finding treatment.

      To my pedantic friend Jennifer, yes I meant that a panic attack while driving would immediately put the sufferer and anyone unfortunately near them in immediate danger.

  13. Abigail*

    1: I think not having a supervisors at this weekend is a slam dunk bad idea.

    But the LW would be well served to adjust expectations for the sustainability of these types of weekends with colleagues. In some industries, this type of partying is normal. In even more still, it is expected.

    It has an expiration date, though. As people move onwards and upwards the dynamics change. The LW is, essentially, mixing a vacation with a work retreat. The LW wants to preserve the trip guests and vibes, which I understand, but it gets tricky when there is work crossover.

    Don’t invite the boss this year. Then adjust expectations for this trip at all.

    2. Daisy-dog*

      Yep, the update mentions a reorg which meant no one in the party crew reported to each other anymore. Which would have solved the problem for that summer if it weren’t for covid. What’s to say there isn’t another reorg where one of them becomes a big boss or other major decision maker?

  14. CrowdsourceIt*

    OP3, putting aside the actual I question an environment where you can only do computer-based work in one specific location. It is, at most, an artificial barrier, and has been for decades.

    Now, dealing with the office mate. Honestly, I would have left the door open to make sure others could hear them. Make it a communal issue. If you can, try to make sure the boss or upper management or someone who is close to either hears. I would be uncomfortable directly saying something if I’d already promised I wouldn’t, especially if I’d already said I wouldn’t, but I think this is one of the few cases where I think geing passive aggressive is appropriate.

    2. ecnaseener*

      LW mentioned they work with financial information, so it was probably a privacy thing. But also, like, they didn’t have a laptop and their work was all on the computer, the “why” doesn’t really matter.

    3. MK*

      OP didn’t say she can only do computer work in her office, she said she needs her computer to work, and if she has to leave her office where her computer is, she can’t work. It’s possible that she could work from another computer, but it’s not an artificial barrier that the company doesn’t have an extra computer around for when your officemate decides to kick you out. Also, if you are working with sensitive data, creating network is inadvisable for security reasons.

      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        I saw a job posting last week that required people to do most of their work in a particular office, due to government work security concerns.

        1. Bookworm*

          I have friends that work for the federal government. Some of their work involves very sensitive data. During the pandemic, they were remote, but if they needed to work with the very sensitive data, they had to go into the office. These friends had security clearances.

    4. Almost Empty Nester*

      Also the letter is from 2018, which in data security terms is several generations ago.

    5. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Passive aggression is a terrible way to try to get what you want. It’s just hinting and hoping someone less conflict-averse notices the problem. Much better just to tell the manager immediately. It nearly always saves a lot of trouble in the end.

      The OP should never have promised not to tell her boss that her colleague was preventing her from working. However, that promise sounds like it was made in haste, under duress and before the OP realised the serious consequences for herself. Hence it was a promise that should have been broken as soon as she realised.

  15. Empress Ki*

    2 : When I read the title, I expected to read about a difficult and intolerant co-worker who just doesn’t like dogs. Carol isn’t “uncomfortable”, she seems to suffer from cynophobia (phobia of dogs).
    I have this phobia too. I’d piss my pants if a dog approaches me. Uncomfortable is when there are flies around me. I don’t like them but I am not scared. It’s not at all the same thing.
    Please, don’t try to to make Carol “comfortable” around your dog. It’s more likely to make things worse if she has a real phobia.
    She probably could request to have a desk far away from your dog, as a reasonable accommodation, but the request has to come from her. I don’t know if this is feasible, but if you can walk as far as possible from her in the hallways, that could be helpful.

    1. Lady Lessa*

      You will find the update to that letter very interesting. HR and the LW’s manager tried to restrict the service dog enough to prevent the animal from doing their job, etc. Best thing, LW is working at a better place that even rearranged her workspace to make it easier for both of them.

    2. Jackalope*

      I think it’s important here that the OP asked for her OWN desk to be moved. The OP was also feeling uncomfortable with the situation, and it’s reasonable for her to decide that she would rather move to a new desk than have to walk on eggshells around a coworker with a (real and understandable!) fear of her service dog. I’ve moved myself as well when around people who are very allergic to cats, for example, so we can both have a more positive experience.

  16. Hyaline*

    I feel like #2 illustrates the very real challenges to accommodations and accessibility–that sometimes what makes something more accessible for one person makes it less accessible for someone else. Here, LW had a real, documentable reason for having a dog at work…and her coworker had a real and probably documentable reason (like Empress says, this sounds like a phobia, not “ick, dogs”) for needing to be in a dog-free environment. It’s challenging to properly accommodate both (yes, LW’s workplace turns out to be sucky, but that aside). This reminds me of the “carpet vs no carpet” debate when it comes to physical accessibility (carpet is easier for some mobility aids, harder for others) or the time that we stayed in an accessible hotel room that was so inaccessible to a tall non-disabled person that my husband injured himself trying to shower. Like…”universal design” mentality is a nice idea, but it often doesn’t actually work like that because people can in fact have needs that are in contradiction to one another. No criticism, just admiration of everyone doing their best to navigate making work accessible for everyone.

  17. Xhausted*

    Letters like #3 really wind me up, as a manager and a worker. I really, really hope that this boss didn’t just immediately jump to a PIP, instead of applying some critical thinking and curiosity as to why there appeared to be a dip in work performance.

    I’m glad it worked out well for the LW, but managers just need to do better.

    1. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Well, I can see how, because the OP didn’t let the boss know what was happening with the officemate, the boss was only seeing that both of them weren’t getting their work done and OP was leaving the office a few times a week instead of doing their work as they should have been. OP was being very kind to protect the coworker, but at some point OP needed to come out and protect themselves and their own job, so I’m glad OP finally spoke up (as per the update). It sounds like they did it in as compassionate a way possible and as I said in another thread, I do hope that coworker is in a better place now.

  18. Strive to Excel*

    OP #1 – Gabby should have rescinded her ask to go on the trip as soon as she realized that some of her direct reports were there. The reality of management is that there are people you cannot be friends with, because you are their manager. Once they are no longer your manager all bets are off! But until then part of being a good leader is maintaining a level of professional detachment from your people. That doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy spending time with your people! But you shouldn’t be the sort of friends that go skinny dipping and drinking together.

    1. Daisy-dog*

      Yeah, that would have been the advice if Gabby wrote in. And her reaction afterwards about not being a “cool kid” was weird.

      I’m sorry everyone in the crew had such an abrupt ending to their fun, but I also know that it likely wouldn’t have lasted anyway. Maybe not within 1 year, but there would have been people in the crew: move away, have changes in life circumstances, maybe even date someone else in the group and then break up (or get married and have kids), etc.

  19. Blue Cactus*

    Re: Letter 3, I’m surprised by the number of people in the original comments to the update saying these aren’t panic attacks. I think we can acknowledge the fact that these panic attacks are a real and probably intensely distressing experience for the coworker while still holding firm to the fact that they’re leading to completely unacceptable behavior that’s not only disrupting work but (per the update) to be physically threatening. I don’t see a world where this person could be in-office under that set of circumstances so it seems like the situation was untenable.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Panic attacks are one of those things that people think they understand but may not, even if they get them themselves. There’s such a spectrum to how they occur and appear.

      I think people, in general, have a hard time not falling into black and white thinking when someone appears to be so obviously in the wrong. You’re throwing things at people, you’re being difficult and demanding, therefore you are wrong and your panic attacks aren’t real. I don’t even think most of the time people do this consciously or maliciously – it just happens.

  20. Dont be friends with people you manage*

    LW 1 – the rowdy beach weekend story really frustrated me w/r/t Gabby’s reaction (especially in the update). As the manager it’s your responsibility to hold firm not bug people about not being invited “to the cool kids club”. I get that it can suck to manage people in your own age group and lose out on making friends at work (because your friends are now below you in the org chart or report to you directly) but it’s frustrating how much LW1 had to be the responsible adult. I’m sure there’s mixed feelings on the rowdy weekend in general but I’m less concerned about that and more concerned about the managerial relationship.

  21. Folié á trois*

    To each their one but…everyone in letter 1 was in their 30s at the original time of writing? You couldn’t have paid me to go on that type of weekend trip in my early 20s with actual, non-work friends (unless you were paying me maybe 5 million US dollars, pre-tax, minimum. And I had my own place to stay).

    Also, it sounded like the LW wanted to be coy about like, hinting at a drug-fueled orgy or something, and instead just came off as annoying and kind of obnoxious. Bravo I guess??

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