update: my coworker talks non-stop and we can’t take it anymore

by Alison Green on December 6, 2023

It’s “where are you now?” month at Ask a Manager, and all December I’m running updates from people who had their letters here answered in the past.

There will be more posts than usual this week, so keep checking back throughout the day.

Remember the letter-writer whose coworker talked non-stop and they couldn’t take it anymore? Here’s the update.

I eventually had to have a different, but direct conversation with Serena about her frequent comments regarding my clothing choices (i.e., her telling me “you wearing pants is throwing me off” when I often wear skirts/dresses). These comments, made in front of others, were uncomfortable and embarrassing. I told her, “You’ve made several comments over the past weeks about me wearing pants, and I want you to know that I don’t appreciate those comments. I’m asking you privately to stop.” She agreed and she has since stopped. Although she now avoids me, I continue to be professional when interacting, but it was a valuable lesson in how being direct actually worked.

Other colleagues have also started addressing her behavior more directly, by not letting her derail a conversation or telling her they have something handled if she tries to insert herself. Most of the behavior is continuing sporadically, but we aren’t expecting miracles overnight. We are gradually getting used to being more direct with her, using the approaches you suggested. Time will tell, but we’re all much less at our wits’ ends now as we’re noticing fewer interruptions and are getting used to be more direct with her and with each other.

One detail I regret leaving out of my letter is that Serena’s actions have had a significant and ongoing impact on our productivity. She frequently engages in extended chats and interruptions with all staff members, including managers. Her arguments with experts have disrupted collaborative efforts on crucial projects. Moreover, her resistance to taking advice has led to several serious mistakes. In hindsight, I realize this is the real issue, but I initially refrained from mentioning it, thinking that I had no control over it. However, after reading the comments, I recognize that the lack of effective management by Serena’s manager and the grandboss, despite repeated reports about the issues, is the core problem.

Your advice prompted me to reflect on why we weren’t being direct. While it’s not an excuse (and I now know better), being a young woman starting my career, and with many of my colleagues in a similar situation, there is a strong desire to be liked for being polite and helpful. We were never taught to establish boundaries, and have watched as other female coworkers are punished by the older, male C-suite executives for being “abrasive and opinionated, or hard to get along with.” In fact, last year, one such coworker was demoted with those exact words, which served as a stark warning. Our industry is reputation-driven (government field), so the younger, female workers are acutely aware that these men control our career trajectories and therefore we feel compelled to conform to their expectations of being “sweet” to advance. I believe this compounded our hesitance to confront Serena in fear of being unfairly branded as “difficult.”

It’s eye-opening to realize I can set boundaries and still be kind. My own anxiety made me fear that if I were direct with Serena, she would think I didn’t like her, and I didn’t want her to feel bad. However, I now understand that avoiding directness was doing more harm in the long run. I also wanted to clarify the mention of neurodivergence. While it’s not the core issue, we did not want to stigmatize or make Serena feel inferior if she had neurodivergent traits (and it often comes up in AAM threads). However, in our attempts to be kind, we were avoiding addressing the more significant issue at hand.

To sum it up, the workplace is indeed toxic, with a lack of professional management and low morale. Serena’s chattiness is just one among many issues and I’m actively exploring options to leave before it distorts my perception of normal. Thank you to you and the commenters for helping me realize that my colleagues and I were being passive-aggressive to spare Serena’s feelings, which was ultimately unkind, and we weren’t focussing on the actual big-picture issues. I’ve learned a valuable lesson I’ll carry throughout my career, and with practice, I’m confident that I can implement effectively. Thank you so much!

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  1. Sloanicota*

    I definitely recall feeling like I had to be sweet and kind when I was younger in my career. But keep in mind, most people who are viewed as very, very nice will also be dinged for “not displaying leadership,” meaning they will not be moved up. So women who are nice don’t move up, and women who are not nice are kicked back down. The status quo is extremely powerful, and part of what keeps it working is us all thinking it’s our behavior that drives the outcomes, rather than seeing the bigger system for what it is.

    1. Bringerofbrownies*

      Boy does that resonate. I had a performance review once where the only bad thing said was that I could demonstration more leadership. When I asked what that meant specifically as my role was mostly self-starter and I already managed projects from beginning to end, it came out that I wasn’t viewed as a “leader” because I was friendly and related too well with all staff, mostly junior staff.

    2. Distracted Librarian*

      Yup. Welcome to the double-bind of existing as a woman at work. Another example: refuse to do a disproportionate share of service tasks (taking minutes, organizing potlucks, etc.) and you’re not collegial or not a team player. Do those things and you aren’t taken seriously but instead seen as a handmaiden rather than a leader. We always have to walk a tightrope between being kind and caring and being tough enough to be seen as leaders.

      1. Sloanicota*

        See, I think we even when we try to talk about this, we end up sounding as if there’s a “right” path of “balancing” down the middle that will lead to success and fortune. But to be honest, in a corrupt system that is actively trying to maintain status quo, we can’t “balance” our way out of it. It has to come from the top.

        2. ferrina*

          100%
          Company culture always starts at the top. The top management sets expectations and priorities; if they set a culture of “smile more, you look better when you do your face”, that will move throughout the company. There might be the rogue manager that fights it, but that person is the exception. When top management says “Gender equality is important, both on a human level and on a business level, because we don’t to cut out half the population from reaching their potential and doing high value work for our company,” that echoes.

        3. Anonym*

          Important distinction. Don’t let the “how to navigate this mess as an individual” view, however useful, take the place of the discussion of – and action on – systemic changes needed.

            1. Sloanicota*

              Yeah I debated what I posted because I didn’t want it to seem like I’m saying women can’t ever be successful in the working world or shouldn’t try – obviously they can and they do! But I do think it behooves most of us to realize early on if we are working in places where are talents aren’t valued – and take our skills to the places that *do* value us. Easier said than done though, obviously.

          2. MigraineMonth*

            This! I’ve always appreciated how Alison’s advice is applicable to the world we live in, while she also points out that just because things are this way doesn’t mean they should be.

        4. Quill*

          Yes, also, tbh the women who look like they walked the exact right line… probably had an in somewhere. You don’t become a (blech) “girlboss” by doing the exact right balance of grind to have it all, you become a “girlboss” by having a head start.

      2. not nice, don't care*

        And so often in academia lower level staff have service tasks dumped on them by faculty of all genders, exacerbating socioeconomic/class-related inequities. It’s always maddening to see classified staff used as stepping stones or tools, but here we are.

      3. Chief Bottle Washer*

        Ugh, no kidding. I have had review feedback that is basically tone policing. It’s exhausting.

    3. Curious*

      “….have watched as other female coworkers are punished by the older, male C-suite executives for being “abrasive and opinionated, or hard to get along with…”

      I am curious if LW thought those were accurate descriptors of her female workers and if she have any relationship with them.

      1. Eowyn*

        “I am curious if LW thought those were accurate descriptors of her female workers and if she have any relationship with them.”

        LW here! Definitely not accurate descriptions. I do have professional relationships with most of my female colleagues, but I’m being as objective as possible when I say that they don’t fit in those “abrasive and opinionated” terms at all.

        My female colleagues are experts in their various fields- some with decades of experience, and some are award winners in their own rights, so I feel it’s very accurate to say that their opinions and expertise should hold weight in a “normal” organization. Unfortunately with a C suite with zero females (or diverse members for that matter) voices in the top levels of power, we see this expertise diminished every day as “well that’s your opinion” when it’s actually years of study, work, and evidence. When these colleagues or I try to back up our opinions/expertise with evidence and best practices, we’re dismissed with “you’re being really abrasive and stubborn; this is the direction the C suite has decided to go in.”

        It’s demeaning and diminishing, but they use the veneer of “opinions” when it’s actually expertise, and we know that. So the demoted coworker being punished for pushing back on her expertise showed us all that continuing to try to exert our expertise was only ever going to be viewed as “being difficult and opinionated,” so some of us have given up. It’s really sad, and I’m sad seeing the defeat setting in for some of my more experienced colleagues. I hope I can get out fast enough that this won’t happen to me.

        Hope that clears it up a little!

    4. Generic Name*

      Yup. It’s a classic double bind. At a previous company, my boss told me during my annual review to show more confidence and speak up in meetings more. So I made an effort to contribute to meetings more. Almost immediately, my boss pulled me aside and told me that I was talking too much in meetings. Some time later, she put in her notice, and I met with her offsite to discuss her experience in the role because I was considering putting in for the vacancy. She told me that she didn’t see me as leadership material, and she had recommended a (younger, less experienced, less educated) male colleague for the role. When I asked for specifics of what she meant, she couldn’t give any examples but just said that I “came off as a little strident sometimes”.

    5. GrumpyPenguin*

      In Germany there is a saying “Nice is the little sister of Sh*t” – sorry for the language, but Germans aren’t known to sugarcoat it. It has always bothered me that being simply nice is regarded as being incompetent, weak and/ or stupid.
      Regarding Serena having neurodivergent traits: It simply doesn’t matter. It might be an explanation, not an excuse. I’m neurodivergent too, but if I act like a jerk, I derserve to be called out for that.

  2. High Score!*

    I remember reading this and feeling bad for you. Sounds like you are handling the situation like an expert now though! Practice being direct but kind, and your superior verbal expertise will serve you well. Good luck!

  3. Rondeaux*

    I wonder if Serena also knew about the coworker who was demoted and the overall atmosphere of the company. Maybe she was trying overly hard to be friendly so that wouldn’t happen to her.

    Either way, the company overall does sound toxic and as you mentioned Serena is just one little piece of that.

  4. Lisa B*

    “It’s eye-opening to realize I can set boundaries and still be kind.”

    This is some stellar advice right here and it’s AWESOME that you realized it!!

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Yes truly! I feel like I’m the worst person in the world when I try to set a boundary, going to keep reminding myself of this.

      1. Aquamarine*

        It’s so hard. Serena is avoiding her now, and that would be so hard for me if I were the OP. I can’t deal when I feel like someone doesn’t like me (or that I don’t like them). I’m kind of a mess…

        1. Eowyn*

          Hi Aquamarine- LW here! As a recovering lifelong people-pleaser, I just wanted to tell you that while the first few days while she was avoiding me was hard, it was replaced with me being proud for sticking up for myself and setting a boundary. For the first time, it felt more important for me to like myself than for others to like me. The need for her to “like” me was quickly replaced with the need for her to respect me as a fellow human being with feelings and for her to treat me as she would like to be treated. It was a very freeing feeling.

          And eventually she did come to respect me- she no longer avoids me, and while we’ll never be “friends,” we can still be friendly and have respect for each other as fellow people that deserve kindness.

          It does work and it does get better, I promise!! Recovering people-pleasers, unite!

          1. Aquamarine*

            Thank you so much for responding, especially with such an insightful comment. “For the first time, it felt more important for me to like myself than for others to like me.” I’m going to be thinking on that for a long time. You’re an inspiration!

          2. Thegreatprevaricator*

            I really like this update and insight. It’s also impressive that you found it within a general structure that’s not promoting inclusion and sounds pretty discriminatory. I felt for Serena and I still do now – there’s a tone of us / Serena that reminds me of being the awkward or outsider person. But it shows that there are things you can change about how you operate even if you can’t fix the wider nonsense. I hope it serves you well and that you find a better workplace that supports your growth and career (I hope Serena does too but that’s her story)

          3. Slow Gin Lizz*

            Hi LW! While it’s demoralizing to hear how your workplace operates, gender-wise, I am happy for you that you’ve figured this out. I only recently figured it out myself as I reached my mid-40s and it certainly is freeing to stop being the agreeable pushover I used to be. Since I work from home I still have a hard time doing it in person but I’m working on it myself. I hope all of us can figure it out and that more of us will figure it out when they are much younger than I am. Here’s hoping!

      1. Misty_Meaner*

        The problem, especially for women (IMHO) is that it doesn’t always *feel* kind, at least in the moment. In hindsight, sure. We have to make the effort to push thru the awkward “I sure hope I don’t sound mean” moment to get to the other side where we can recognize the kindness of being honest.

  5. Emmy*

    The one thing I can see that may come from more people starting to be more direct with her is that she’s already showing some withdrawal from the group. If too many direct conversations happen too quickly, she may interpret it as being “picked on” or some other unpleasant reason. For example, is she in a protected class that could be perceived as targeted? Not saying this is happening, but I’ve seen it in my work environments. All the are picking on the . Even if it’s a coincidence and a legit business-related coaching/mentoring situation, group dynamics matter. Perception is reality.

    1. MigraineMonth*

      I disagree with this. The group was already talking behind her back and practically shunning her. Directly addressing actual issues (“I’m having a private conversation with Melinda” or “I’m on a deadline and can’t talk right now”), in contrast, is the constructive way to deal with issues. The entire workplace can’t just take the grandboss’ negligent approach of “maybe if we ignore all issues they’ll eventually go away”, and coordinating the number of people who have direct conversations with her per week would be far more alarming than letting them happen organically.

      1. Alpacas Are Not Dairy Animals*

        I think it can be simultaneously true that this approach is the best one possible in the circumstances and that Serena perceives it as being “picked on” or even bullying, since she was apparently oblivious to being shunned before.

    2. Elliot*

      The group seem to have realistic goals of not expecting her to change overnight, so hopefully not an entire barrage of feedback all at once. Also, a lot of direct guidance isn’t criticism at all. It’s just “Oh x instead of y please.”

  6. Hlao-roo*

    To sum it up, the workplace is indeed toxic, with a lack of professional management and low morale. Serena’s chattiness is just one among many issues and I’m actively exploring options to leave before it distorts my perception of normal.

    Thank you for the update, and good luck finding a new job!

    1. ferrina*

      Really appreciate this update! This letter was an interesting one, and I’m so glad LW provided an update. Good luck to them on the job search!

  7. I Have RBF*

    We were never taught to establish boundaries, and have watched as other female coworkers are punished by the older, male C-suite executives for being “abrasive and opinionated, or hard to get along with.” In fact, last year, one such coworker was demoted with those exact words, which served as a stark warning.

    “abrasive and opinionated, or hard to get along with.” This is the story of my career. I am AFAB, and have been clocked as female – and expected to behave as such – my entire career. I have lost count of how many times I’ve had “feedback” to that effect, just because I’m not a people pleaser, or mealy mouthed shrinking violet, and I am more direct than “nice” by male standards – i.e. inoffensive, submissive, girly, hesitant, don’t make waves, etc.

    It’s a thing that sucks so much, especially in male dominated workplaces. I am constantly judged, not on my competence, but on whether I am pleasing to the men around me, whether I soothe their male fragility enough when I have to tell them something they don’t want to hear. Worse, many of the women in the workplace are complicit in enforcing this behavior, because they, rightly or wrongly, are trying to protect other women from the consequences of not being “nice” and “womanly”.

    I’m 62, it’s still happening. I doubt it will change in my lifetime, or even in my great niece’s lifetime, but I can only hope.

    1. BellyButton*

      ” I am constantly judged, not on my competence, but on whether I am pleasing to the men around me, whether I soothe their male fragility enough when I have to tell them something they don’t want to hear.”

      UGGGG!! One of the things we talk about in DEI circles is intersectionality. So female+ minority+ young+ not native English speaker, it all compounds so they have to overcome more and more of the judgements, expectations.

      I do have hope as the Millennials and Gen Zs start to move into leadership positions. They are much more aware of inequalities and inequities than any other generation. The majority of the employees at my company are young Millennials and Gen Zs, and I already see a huge difference in the way the treat people. There is hope!

    2. Honestly, some people’s children!*

      I worked for 30+ years in public safety, with the double whammy of being both a woman and a “civilian” working in jobs that would have been held in the recent past (sometimes literally a few minutes ago!) by mostly male cops prior to being civilianized. It never stops. In the past decade I had young female subordinates suggest the men at meetings might not be so whatever the behavior being discussed if I brought brownies to meetings. That I had made myself.

      1. ferrina*

        You notice how you never hear people say “Men are so moody*! They should eat more chocolate?”
        Yet it’s somehow your responsibility to provide brownies so they will be reasonable.

        *#notallmen, of course. But women have heard this so much and have had their feedback dismissed because “hormonal” and “over-sensitive” and yes, myself and many women I know have been told to eat chocolate as a solution for our very reasonable frustration. I love chocolate, but it really doesn’t solve a pay gap or make incorrigible stakeholders will deliver results on time.

      2. I Have RBF*

        In the past decade I had young female subordinates suggest the men at meetings might not be so whatever the behavior being discussed if I brought brownies to meetings. That I had made myself.

        AAAARRRRGGGHHHH!

        This reminds me of the whole thing with Hillary Clinton about them wanting her to, essentially, “stay home and bake cookies”.

        “I suppose I could have stayed home and baked cookies and had teas, but what I decided to do was to fulfill my profession,” she said during Bill Clinton’s first presidential campaign.
        – https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/06/us/politics/hillary-clinton-cookies.html

        The fact that even younger women get coopted into enforcing the whole gender role BS is what really grinds my gears. If a person wants to do that stuff, great, let them, but it should not be an expectation of a person based on their physiological plumbing, FFS.

        1. GrumpyPenguin*

          The Homemade-Cookie-Request happened to me too. I’m a terrible baker but I brought some anyway. Once. I will always remember the painfilled smiles of my coworkers eating my chocolate-bacon-cookies. They never asked for cookies again.

          1. Billy Preston*

            lol I am a great baker and like doing it but not when I’m told to do it or it’s because I’m afab. Because of this, I don’t bring much into the office cause I don’t want to be the lady who bakes and that’s it.

        2. Michelle Smith*

          100% agree, I’m biologically female and you absolutely DO NOT want to eat anything I’ve attempted to bake, even if it came out of a box with a well-loved brand name on the packaging.

          Gendered expectations of behavior and skills really grind my gears.

    3. MigraineMonth*

      I had some struggles with this early in my career (a competitive workplace really brought out the worst in me). Now I have the opposite problem: I sound really wishy-washy about things I am the expert on. Fortunately, my current workplace seems to have a lot of respect for me even when I don’t fight for it.

      Still, sometimes I stare at an email where I’ve written “Hmm, interesting, I wonder if you’ve considered…” when what I really mean is “That’s a bad idea and we should do this instead” for a minute or two before shrugging and sending it anyway.

    4. Pizza Rat*

      “abrasive and opinionated, or hard to get along with.”

      That’s shown up on more than one of my annual reviews.

      1. H3llifIknow*

        I got called on being an eye roller and that “you can see it on my face when I think someone said something stupid in a meeting”, and also, weirdly, that I wasn’t ready for promotion because I “enjoyed my role and laughed too much.” Like WTF?

    6. Mynona*

      Only to add that I have received the same feedback from my female colleagues in my woman-dominated industry. Many, many women are completely oblivious to the extent of their own conditioning.

  8. BellyButton*

    The whole balancing act of being a woman is exhausting sometimes! Be nice, but not too nice, be kind, be direct, but not too direct, be feminine, but not too feminine, wear makeup, but not too much. UGGG. After almost 30 yrs in the professional workforce I am so over it!

    I am proud of OP developing her ability to be kind and direct. Good luck!

  9. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

    Unfortunately, it totally tracks that you’re in the government field. It seems like there is extra resistance to managing these types of things in government.

  10. H3llifIknow*

    I remember somewhere in my first year of working for *BIG 3 Name Gov Ctr*, I was a team lead. I had already brought in ~$1M in business, and was hosting a meeting with some other team leads (all male) and clients (also all male). At the beginning of the meeting, one of the older male leads suggested that *I* go get the guests some coffee. I offered to escort them to the coffee area and let them make their own. When we all returned, and sat down, as I prepared to begin, another older male said, “You’re taking the minutes on this meeting, right?” I just looked at him, and said, “I am leading this meeting; I will take notes on my action items, but I cannot lead this discussion AND take minutes. Are you asking me, as the only woman in the room to take minutes?” He actually responded that I “have the nicest handwriting, so it’d be easier to transcribe later.” We ended up calling in an admin to take the minutes, but HOLY that was an eye opening moment for me.

    1. BellyButton*

      OMG. Just a few weeks ago I was leading a meeting. It was our executive team and a couple of our clients. As I was setting up one of the clients came in and said “hey! Good for you for putting all this together.” His tone was so condescending my head nearly exploded. I asked “What do you mean?” He said “this must be a big opportunity for you to get in front of all the executives (I am an exec) and these big clients” I said “I am Bellybutton, Head of …” he looked shocked. I am 50 yrs old FFS!

      1. BellyButton*

        BTW, of our 7 highest executives, 5 are women. So it’s not like women haven’t been present with this client before.

    2. pally*

      After reading this and BellyButton’s posts, I am kicking myself.

      I spent the last 6 years serving as secretary for the professional organization I belong to. They told me, as secretary, not only do I take minutes, but I also have to run the meetings.

      Which I did for 6 years. And yes, I even fetched coffee a time or two.

      The committee I served on consisted of a bunch of older (like in their 70’s) men. And me. I’m sure they are pleased at putting one over on me.

      There is no 7th year. I’m gone.

    3. La Triviata*

      Years ago, I was working for a top-level international firm. Some clients asked a woman VICE PRESIDENT to get coffee for them. She was, rightfully, livid.

      1. H3llifIknow*

        Yeah. We had a coffee bar with a few Keurig style one cup at a time machines, all the creamers, sweeteners, disposable cups, and mugs, etc… So, if the visitor had unescorted privileges, I’d say, “the coffee is down this hall to the left,” but if they had to be escorted, I’d walk them to it, and stand there either making my own while they made theirs or I’d just….wait and escort them back. But, other than my hubby (or special circumstances–the guy is on crutches, etc…) I’m not making some guy coffee just because I have a uterus.

  11. HugeTractsofLand*

    I’m so glad that you and the group are setting boundaries! I’m also sorry to hear that there are such pronounced gender issues at your job. Just so you know, gender bias always plays a role at work, but I’ve never worked anywhere where someone was !!actually demoted!! for what sounds like blatantly biased reasons! It is not normal- because it skews illegal- for gender expectations to be so blatant and acted upon. I’m glad that you’re looking for other jobs where your skills will be developed and your growth will be encouraged regardless of gender. Best of luck.

  12. Joanne M*

    For an eye-opening look at how women in science used to be treated as less competent, read Kate Zernike’s book “The Exceptions.” It focuses on women faculty members at MIT and their fight for equal treatment. Everything from smaller lab sizes than male counterparts, tenure , salary, etc. Fantastic book.

    1. AFac*

      Warning: it will also make you so frustrated and mad. I had to stop reading it because I was already stressed out and just couldn’t take more.

      But I was a woman in graduate school in a STEM field during some of the years the events in the book were occurring and it may be that I just don’t have the energy to re-hash it again. I’d also mention that some days I’m not sure the culture has changed as much as we’d like to think it has.

    2. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Not the same story per se but Arlene Blum is a mountain climber who also has a PhD in biophysical chemistry and she talks about how when she was in school in the 60s multiple PIs at MIT told her that girls weren’t allowed in her lab and how when she started climbing multiple expedition leaders told her that girls couldn’t climb. She proved all of them wrong but I’m sure none of them learned any lessons anyway.

      Her books are amazing and fascinating and sad and frustrating and wonderful and I highly recommend them. (Also it turns out that she recently received yet another PhD in civil engineering; not an honorary one, an actual one. She’s really amazing.)

  13. Bog Witch*

    I also wanted to clarify the mention of neurodivergence. While it’s not the core issue, we did not want to stigmatize or make Serena feel inferior if she had neurodivergent traits (and it often comes up in AAM threads). However, in our attempts to be kind, we were avoiding addressing the more significant issue at hand.

    As a neurodivergent person myself, I’m really glad this was your takeaway. People have got to stop treating ND folks with kid gloves for fear of stigmatizing or being unkind. Addressing problems clearly but kindly is always going to be the most straightforward path for everyone.

    1. design ghost*

      Honestly! I understand why the LW thought not talking to Serena about the issue was a kindness because it “often comes up in AAM threads” but like. This is one of those issues where you need to be careful about which AAM comments you’re taking advice from, because some people here can be really condescending about this. It’s becoming something of a trend.

      Not to put anyone on blast but I’ve noticed a few letters/comments now that are like, “my employee, who I have diagnosed with some sort of neurodivergence based purely on vibes, is disruptive or unprofessional in really obvious and upsetting ways, but I don’t know what to do because I personally think she’s incapable of not doing the unprofessional thing. I have never talked to her about the issue but I’m sure I’m right about the limits of her brain. What should I do?”

      I’m glad the LW here figured out how wrong-headed she was here, and I hope some commenters learn from this as well. Stop assuming you know who is and isn’t neurodivergent, first of all, but more importantly stop assuming you know what individual neurodivergent people are capable of doing (or not doing).

    2. GrumpyPenguin*

      I’m neurodivergent too and looking back, there were so many occasions were my behaviour didn’t conform with social norms. I was the proverbial white elephant in the room, but nobody ever said anything. All I got were strange looks and vague comments when all I needed was a polite, yet very clear statement. Honestly, it doesn’t matter if someone is neurodivergent or not, if they behave like LW’s coworker, you need to adress it, for everyone’s sake.

    3. Michelle Smith*

      Yes, I agree. Some of us do have rejection sensitivity, but I personally (despite being one of those people) strongly prefer people to tell me what they’re thinking in a direct, not condescending manner. I then know where I stand and can change accordingly. The fact that I might be inadvertently hurting someone with my behavior or comments and they did not trust me enough to tell me to stop it is way more horrifying than the embarrassment of being told.

    4. Eowyn*

      LW here- you’re absolutely right; 100% a huge lesson for me to learn and continue to grow with. On the original post one commenter mentioned about getting hit with a “clue-by-four” and goodness how I got hit with that when I sat back and thought about the backwards way I was attempting to fix this. Direct and clear is kind, indeed. I wish I had learned that so much sooner, but glad I get to go forward with that knowledge now.

    5. Billy Preston*

      yes yes yes, co-signed from another ND person. Please just be direct with us, we are capable of learning and growing.

  14. oldtobegin*

    This is one of the most thoughtful and thoroughly self-reflective updates I’ve ever seen on this site, and this site has a pretty thoughtful and reflective demographic!!!

    1. Astor*

      This! Sometimes growth means you solve a problem, but sometimes it means you have new tools for dealing with unsolvable things. I really appreciate this Law’s update, reflections, and summary.

  15. Scrimp*

    Thank you for this update, it is a great reminder for us to be direct with coworkers about what we need from them.

  16. Me*

    “We were never taught to establish boundaries, and have watched as other female coworkers are punished by the older, male C-suite executives for being “abrasive and opinionated, or hard to get along with.”

    Yes 10000000 times yes!

    At my last job, my boss(male) during my annual (and as always late) review gave me (female) a rating which I did not feel I deserve. I asked, politely as I could, for additional feedback. He said that Joe Cool ( a person in our division but at another site) said I pushed back a lot on a project he and I worked on together. Joe Cool was an obnoxious, mansplaining sycophant and I bent over backwards trying to stay professional. Everyone in our division knew how he was.

    So of course I pushed back on that and said that challenging ideas in a proactive positive way should not be seen as a negative. Its not like I was telling him he was a mansplaining canoe. It was more like, hey can you give me some context on why we are doing it this way?

    Needless to say I was able to transfer to another dept after that and my new (male) boss was awesome and expected me to challenge (in a mostly respectful) manner.

  17. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    This is an absolutely beautiful update and I’m really proud of OP.

    It’s a fine line to walk being a woman, especially in environments that are male dominated, between ‘being nice’ and ‘being seen as a b*tch’ but there’s a good thing about getting older: you care less.

    If someone feels bad because I told them they are out of line? Good. And OP is showing a great step on that line to being assertive yet not cruel.

    (Also as an extremely neuro-spicy individual I am APPLAUDING your ‘it doesn’t matter if she does have X, it’s the behaviour that matters’ reasoning. Seriously. Epic.)

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