I yelled at my employees and they walked out

by Alison Green on August 6, 2024

A reader writes:

I lost my temper with several employees today. I yelled and cussed, but I did not say anything discriminatory. Before I lost it, multiple employees had done the opposite of what I instructed today. I reminded them of who they worked for. I yelled and used the “f” word. We all use it every day.

By the end of the day, with most employees having done something, I got really mad and slammed the door to my office. I slammed it so hard that some of the door facing flew off. Supposedly, it came close to hitting one of the ladies at her desk. After that, all of the employees in the office except one (the one who I yelled at this morning) walked out. I followed them outside and told them if they leave without permission, don’t come back tomorrow. They still left.

Two of the five who left, I did not have any problem with today. I did not yell at them, even though one of them did what she wanted today, not what I asked.

One of them was the husband of one of the two who I didn’t yell at. The wife in this couple has a text group with all the employees on it. She has been sending out text messages talking B.S.

I know that I shouldn’t get so angry and yell at them. I am sorry that the wood almost hit someone. She happens to be our newest employee.

Most of this started when our payroll clerk informed me that two employees wrote vacation on their timecards when they left early. Let me explain. They were on call the day before and got called out at 7pm. They did not complete the emergency until 11 am. Their supervisor told them they could go home if they wanted. Understandably, they did. They were given a choice. I have no problem paying them overtime for the time they worked. I do not believe that I owe them vacation for leaving and going home. Their supervisor did not approve the overtime.

I am still so angry that I don’t want any of them back, but I need them. The way everyone has been acting lately, doing what they want, I am considering closing the business.

I know I messed up, but I don’t think they all should have walked out without permission.

They absolutely should have walked out, with or without permission. They aren’t your indentured servants and you had lost control of yourself and were being abusive. Walking out was them setting a boundary and saying, “We won’t tolerate this.” They were right to do it.

Screaming at people is never okay. Screaming profanity at people is even less okay. Slamming your door so violently that a piece flew off and almost hit someone is so far over any line of what people should put up with at work that you’re lucky they didn’t all walk out.

I’d be surprised if they all come back.

Losing control like that is a sign that you don’t know how to manage your staff. So while your first priority needs to be apologizing to everyone who witnessed your explosion — whether it was directed at them or not — your second priority needs to be getting yourself some help managing. Classes, books, a coach, whatever will work. Good managers don’t yell.

Managers who do yell typically do it because they don’t know how else to get things done. They’re missing the core tools managers need to have –like how to assign work, give feedback, course-correct, set consequences, and hold people accountable — and so they get increasingly frustrated and desperate, and yelling feels like the only tool they have to make their point. But it’s not an acceptable tool to use— it’s an abuse of your power, and it’s also just flat-out abusive, as a human dealing with other humans. It will make good people not want to work for you, and the ones who stay will be increasingly demotivated, disengaged, and far less likely to take initiative or come up with creative ideas (who wants to take risks when there’s a yeller involved?) or generally be the kind of employee you probably want.

Ironically, yelling also diminishes your authority, by making you look weak and out of control. More on this here.

If you take this incident as a wake-up call that you need to learn how to manage employees, it will strengthen your business. If you don’t, you and the people who work for you in are in for a tough road.

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  2. Beep Boop*

    well…the fact that this person wrote this all down and still didn’t see why they were wrong is concerning but I hope that them knowing about Alison enough to write in suggests that once they cool down, clearer heads well prevail.

    However—gosh.

    1. SheLooksFamiliar*

      Yeah, some managers seem to think that, as long as they’re operating in service of The Business, anything goes. As in, ‘My yelling and door slamming isn’t personal, it’s about the work situation.’

      OP, it’s understandable that you will be frustrated, but that can’t be devolve into what you described. And please re-read what you wrote with humility and an open mind.

      1. Snarkus Aurelius*

        When I was at my high school job, there was a creepy guy who took advantage of the fact I had to talk to him. When he saw me running errands on a day I didn’t work, he saw me, but I avoided him. He complained to my boss who threatened to write me up *for behavior outside of work that had zero impact on anything*. Why?

        “Customers are the only reason you have a paycheck. If you don’t want a paycheck anymore, then that can be arranged.”

        This same person also egregiously misunderstood and misquoted “the customer is always right” and that’s no coincidence!

            2. Snarkus Aurelius*

              The meaning being if your customer wants 15 bottles of ketchup on their table or they want to buy purple and brown striped pants, then you shut your mouth and retrieve what you’re asked.

              It has never and still never meant: let the paying customer do and say whatever he wants to whoever he wants, including harassing a 16 year old high school girl on her day off who just wants to buy gas and go home.

      2. Ultimate Facepalm*

        OP – try pretending that someone you depend on for money did this to you. Having that kind of open mind is not easy, so really put effort into putting your perspective aside and think about how it came across to them. It’s also not to say that they handled everything perfectly. It sounds like they didn’t follow overtime procedures but there is a different way to handle it.

        Apologize to them even if you know they aren’t coming back for the sake of goodwill / good karma / making things right. It doesn’t mean they are perfect – it means you are handling your piece of this, which is all you have control of.
        Their issue is that they didn’t follow procedure.
        Your issue is that you were abusive. Get everyone back on the same page about who is responsible for what and then commit to doing better.
        Good luck to you.

      3. My Boss is Dumber than Yours*

        The boss who inspired my user name once told a group of us that all laws, guidelines, and policies are superseded by “legitimate business interests.” According to him, if he had a good business interest to do something it wasn’t against company policy or illegal. He literally included falsifying purchase records to keep a good customer happy and *not paying us minimum wage* as examples of things that he could do as long as he could show it ultimately served the business.

    2. President Pospoise*

      OP, please remember that you can hire someone to do the people management for you if necessary.

      1. Garblesnark*

        +1. Management is really difficult, and very few people are “naturally good” at it.

      2. I AM a Lawyer*

        He referred to at least two of the employees having a supervisor, so I’m not sure why that person couldn’t handle the timecard issue.

        1. Grey Duck 74*

          Exactly.
          Those people were called out at 7pm and DID NOT COMPLETE THE TASK UNTIL 11 AM the next day. Worked overnight, were then denied OT, and were expected to work a full shift after pulling the all nighter?! Their supervisor sent them home after task was completed. They did as directed. Direct the issue with the time cards to the Supervisor who permitted them leave, not those that did the work. All is done at other businesses all the time- without resorting to yelling, cursing, and broken doors.

          And, this on-call process should be ironed out BEFORE an employee does the work. Come up with a clear process so it is fair to all involved- the employee, the customer, and the business. Employees should know expectations on how to handle emergency calls. Supervisors should know the administrative side, and what leeway they have on managing their employees. If anyone takes the hit this time, it’s the business, not the employee. The employee did the work- compensate them fairly for the service they provided to the customer.

          1. Ellie*

            Yes, even among the yelling and the bit of door flying off, this stood out to me too. When people at my work pull an all-nighter, they get time off in lieu, in accordance with our fatigue management policy. You can’t have people working all night and then working a full day at their regular job, and then driving home afterwards. It’s hazardous for everyone involved. Also, the people where I work who are on emergency call-outs are generally on a weekly roster. There’s a non-zero chance that they’re going to be called out again the next night, so they have to rest.

            Even with our clear policies and plenty of people to ask, people regularly book their time off in lieu incorrectly. This is probably because every situation is different, filling out forms is not a part of their primary skill set, and their extremely tired when they’re doing it. I’m sure having a manager yelling at them also wouldn’t help. Writing in ‘vacation’ feels like they thought this was coming out of their entitlements. For people who have just gone above and beyond, it’s a pretty stingy way to cover it.

            OP – if you genuinely came here for advice then please listen to Alison. Apologise to your workers, whether they still want to work for you or not. Then get some help – hire someone who is better than you are at managing people, listen to their advice, and line up some training for yourself. And for the record, no, not everyone does say the f word, and definitely not at work. If what you described had happened at my work, I know without doubt I would either have left immediately, or burst into tears. I feel that your employees handled your outburst in the most professional way they could.

      3. Annie E. Mouse*

        This. I worked for a guy like this LW early in my career. He yelled, slammed doors, and had no idea how to manage people. The best thing that ever happened to the business was when he decided to “semi-retire” and hire a full time manager to handle the day-to-day. Somehow the staff was suddenly more productive when they weren’t terrified all day.

        If the LW really wants to make a change, they should turn the reigns over to someone who is competent to manage.

    4. jasmine*

      I’m assuming LW isn’t a regular AAM reader, because Alison’s pretty clear that she doesn’t see this kind of behavior as acceptable.

      Anyways, the advice is good but perhaps some therapy would be as well? There are deeper issues here, even if LW learns to manage differently.

      OP, please dig into how you think it’s okay to treat people, because this will affect more than your work life, even if you don’t notice (because the perpetrator rarely does). Genuinely wishing wellness and growth for you

      1. sacados*

        Right?! That’s what always floors me about these kind of letters.
        It’s hard to understand how anyone who is even an *occasional* reader of this site could possibly write a letter like that and think that Alison would approve!

        1. Katie*

          I know there’s that whole “don’t say a letter might be fake” thing, but while I do believe this situation happened, I have a very hard time believing that the author of this letter is the yelling manager.

          1. Insert Clever Name Here*

            Alison has said repeatedly that not all letter writers are regular readers — like a lot of advice columnists, people wrote to her after googling “advice blog.”

              1. just some guy*

                Some people don’t realise this kind of thing is out of line, especially those whose assumptions have been influenced by toxic workplaces.

                In my second job, it was a *shock* the first time I contradicted my boss (bracing for impact) and the response was not yelling or bullying but “oh that’s a good point, thank you!” Until then I didn’t have a reference point for what a healthy workplace looked like.

            2. Nebula*

              Yes, and I think it’s come up before that due to the title being ‘Ask a Manager’, some people think Alison will always be on the side of managers, which is why we sometimes see letters like this. It does seem to fit that pattern with a clear ‘manager vs employees’ sort of slant – an indication in itself that the person writing in isn’t a good manager!

          2. Kitty cat lover*

            I worked restaurants for years. I assure you these people exist. I saw a new (to our store) manager scream in someone’s face. They thought if you didn’t want to get yelled at then you should do better. Most of the managers thought this way because the vice president of the franchise would yell in their faces and curse them out. This was not a mom and pop. This was a well known national chain. They banked on people not having other options.

            1. KB*

              OP isn’t saying that the event didn’t happen, just that the letter writer wasn’t the same person as the yeller, i.e. they have too much awareness to be the one being abusive.

          3. Turning*

            I do – it’s the writing style, the choice of words and the tangents and what they choose to focus on. It’s sounds bad but it’s still being minimised. Because it’s the unavoidable fact of the yelling that makes it sound bad, not the way it’s presented. OP knows it’s bad, but they clearly wrote this still upset and angry and can’t see how it looks from the outside.

            The people being yelled at likely wouldn’t have been so vague about the situation for yelling, been so stream of conscious and clearly upset or put in comments about employees doing whatever they wanted instead of what was asked.

    6. MissM*

      I’m actually not sure why they wrote Alison. There’s no ask here like “how do I repair the relationship” or even “what can I do to get employees to follow directions?” – just more venting. I’m guessing they were hoping to hear they were right but.

      1. Airy*

        I think it’s more of a “This situation has got completely out of my control and I don’t know how to salvage it, HELP” situation than a focused query. As someone upthread notes, the person clearly wrote this while still upset and angry, and probably hasn’t processed events to the point of being able to focus like that.

      2. DJ Hymnotic*

        Bosses have definitely written in before hoping to hear they were right. I remember one saying so explicitly in an update–might have been the beer run manager? And like the beer run manager, this person is communicating a certain lack of perspective of just how out of bounds their management style really is.

        I had a yeller at my last job who would regularly shout us down and curse at us. Unfortunately, they were the business owner, so the only real option was leaving. Which we all did within a few months of each other. Life’s too short to spend it being yelled at by someone who ultimately sees you as disposable.

  3. A large cage of birds*

    I got yelled at by my boss at work ONCE. I had to take my dogs to the vet about an hour later and I was job searching on my phone. It’s horrible, and it shouldn’t happen.

    People who act like that shouldn’t be allowed to manage.

    2. Anna*

      I don’t understand how taking your dogs to the vet is related to your boss yelling at you. Are you trying to say it was justified? Because yelling is never justified.

      1. New Jack Karyn*

        I think they’re saying that, within the hour of the yelling, they were job searching.

        1. Mallory Janis Ian*

          That’s how I left my last job; the boss yelled at me, and prior to that, I had witnessed her yelling at others. The very afternoon that she yelled at me, I put in applications for several positions at the university where I had previously worked and was gone within the month.

          Once your boss has yelled at you, they have demonstrated that there is very little you can do to have a communicative relationship with them, they’re not going to help you advance your goals or even behave with civility, and it’s better to go somewhere with a healthier culture.

          1. Medusa*

            A previous boss yelled at me so much, never apologized even when he was wrong, and then yelled at me when I resigned for resigning.

            1. allathian*

              Oh well, at least the yelling when you resigned confirmed that you’d made the right decision.

              I’m sorry for anyone who’s been subjected to yelling at work. It’s bad enough when someone else’s the victim and worse if you are.

              When I was a kid, my parents had a difficult phase in their relationship. They rarely if ever yelled at my sister and me, but they yelled at each other quite a lot. I suspect that it’s partly because we had a tiny one-bedroom apartment (my sister and I shared the bedroom and my parents had curtained off a part of the living room for their bed) and my mom also worked as my dad’s research assistant at the time. Neither of them had any hobbies outside the home and they very rarely saw their friends, either. Crowded living conditions and choosing to spend all day and all night together is tough! My sister and I also fought more than we would’ve done if we’d had our own rooms.

              I’m not quite ready to call it PTSD, but I won’t tolerate yelling in my presence.

        2. A large cage of birds*

          Yes, that’s what I meant. Literally on my tiny phone screen in the vet’s office like “get me the heck out of this job as soon as possible.”

      2. A large cage of birds*

        Haha, badly phrased on my part. I mean I was job searching on my phone that afternoon during an appointment (while waiting for the doctor, not being rude to the staff) because I was so determined not to continue working for someone who treats people like that.

      3. Indolent Libertine*

        It’s just the next thing that happened in their day. An hour after being yelled at, while taking the dogs to the vet, they were already using that time to start job searching because the yelling was so intolerable.

      4. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I think that they had to take the dog to the vet, so probably had to leave early, and their boss yelled at them. an our later they were looking for a new job.

    3. Joielle*

      I got yelled at by my boss at work once, and it was 15 years ago and I was in college, and I still remember how awful it was. I took a lot of lessons away from that job but one of the strongest lessons was now NOT to manage people.

    4. Carrots*

      When I was 23, my boss yelled at me for a stupid reason that was out of my control and called me an idiot. I quit on the spot. Still proud of myself. All my bosses in the years since have been completely respectful and kind.

      Honestly if that boss had just been yelling about the situation out of her own frustration, it wouldn’t have fazed me so much. But as soon as she sad, “Carrots, you are an idiot!” I was done.

      1. A large cage of birds*

        Good for you!

        There’s a big difference between snapping at somebody (still not ok, but we can all get wrapped up in the moment and apologize if it’s a rare occurrence) and being completely unacceptable. Insults like that are definitely unacceptable.

        1. allathian*

          The only time I’ve yelled at work was when I snapped at a former boss for using her authority to take some work off my plate and basically ordering me to take comp time leave when I was on the brink of burnout after a few months of working 50+ hour weeks when my official workweek is 36 hours 15 minutes. She’d failed in assigning sufficient resources and time for a project, or rather, she’d overpromised on our ability to deliver what the higher-ups wanted.

          The ultimate cause of the yelling, in addition to the stress caused by overwork, was that I didn’t respect her managerial authority because she’d treated me like her work bestie and shared some very personal things with me, like her son’s messy divorce. This doesn’t excuse the yelling, but it’s the only explanation I’ve got.

          Both of us had to see our occupational health counselor, both together and separately. I learned that I can’t be friends with my manager and retain any respect for their managerial authority (that crisis led me to AAM). I’m honestly still a bit surprised that I had to learn this lesson so late in life, I was pushing 50 when it happened. Not all of my managers have been pleasant people to work with but she’s the only one whose authority I’ve ever questioned. The managers I’ve had since then have all been professional and friendly but not work friends.

          My manager learned that she didn’t really want to manage people (I assume, naturally I have no idea what she shared with the psychologist), so she quit as a manager, went to a sister organization for about a year to avoid being managed by a former report, and returned to us to do a final, separate project for our department head (rather than the team manager) before retiring.

          As a part of the reconciliation process, I apologized to her for yelling at her and thanked her for ordering me to take the leave I obviously needed, and she apparently accepted my apology, but our professional relationship never really recovered and the friendship definitely died. She retired during the pandemic. Like everyone else on my team I got an invite to her virtual retirement party, which I simply ignored. I never got any comments on my absence and I suspect that she was relieved I didn’t attend. Thankfully in my area former managers who’ve retired aren’t expected to provide references.

      2. Whyblue*

        My otherwise calm boss once threw a stapler across the room when he learned about a very stupid and very expensive mistake. He didn’t throw it at me (or anywhere near me) but it was stull scary. If I hadn’t known him long enough at this point to know this was very out of character for him, I would have quit.

      3. Despachito*

        I think you have something here to be proud of!

        An acquaintance of mine worked for quite a highly positioned politician and said this person was regularly beyond rude to his subordinates – yelling, calling them names, you name it. I thought this was awful and wondered what would happen if all those people quit at once. I get politics is stressful but if the person is not able to maintain basic decency he has no place in it.

      4. Nah*

        Gods above I wish I had been able to do that to the GM that screamed at 19yo me in front of the entire lunch rush dining room for checking myself out to drive to the hospital *while having every single symptom of a literal heart attack* (which was POSTED ON THE WALL BEHIND US)

        He made me pay $200 to continue working there (and I made 7.50 an hour) and I still hate that I gave in and did it.

    5. LCH*

      i got yelled at by a boss once and she never tried it again. most bosses who yell are bullies. i have a lot of experience with bullies. generally speaking, if you don’t react in the way they want, they stop (not always, obvs, there are some truly sh** people out there). or, realistically, they move on to others which isn’t a good outcome, but not within anyone else’s control.

      i kept the job because i was in grad school and it had a high hourly rate, but i don’t put up with yelling.

    6. spreadsheet hero*

      I think I’ve been on the open posts about this. I set myself a policy at my last job: every time my manager raised his voice or made so much as a cutting remark to me, I would fire up Indeed on my work computer and apply for a job.

      2. seripanther*

        Am excellent policy. My previous boss never yelled, but she was a terrible manager in other ways. Every time I felt like screaming at her, I directed the rage into finding and applying for a job.

        It was mostly a venting exercise, but I’ve got a new and better job now, almost as a side effect!

    7. A perfectly normal-size space bird*

      I was yelled and cursed at and called names by my boss on the first day of my new job. I wound up walking out and reporting it to HR. Even if they hadn’t ghosted me, I don’t know if I would have gone back. I didn’t have anything else lined up and I struggled financially for a couple months but I probably would have been emotionally worse off if I had stayed.

      What really astonished me was how many people (my parents included) told me I was the one in the wrong. It was my first day, I was given zero training and told to “figure it out,” and my boss’s response to my not having all the procedures down perfectly was to scream insults at me. There was no way it was going to get better.

    8. urguncle*

      Yep, I got yelled at over Zoom after a meeting and I hung up and sent a slack to someone in HR within minutes and was on another call with HR that afternoon. Be angry at me professionally, get disappointed, start disciplinary action through the correct channels, but do not yell at me.

    9. Meep*

      I yelled at my employees ONCE. They were doing something mildly dangerous and not paying attention. Felt absolutely horrible about it and calmly explained what the problem was after they were out of danger with profuse apologizes. It did not help my boss was on my side.

      Cannot imagine feeling vindicated by being so crotchety over overtime.

      1. allathian*

        Alerting people of danger is pretty much the only time it’s acceptable to yell at work. (It’s also pretty much the only time it’s acceptable for a parent or teacher to yell at the kids in their charge.) Yell all the time and it loses its effectiveness as an alert, although it will continue to cause stress in the people who’re forced to listen.

    11. Hamster Manager*

      I got yelled at once as well, and I never, ever trusted that manager again, even though I stood up for myself in the moment and he did apologize, the knowledge that he WOULD do that was forever imprinted on me.

    12. Quill*

      I used to work for a guy who yelled.

      Turns out that if you need people to measure chemicals to formulate… yelling at them for taking too long to do it makes them far less accurate! Yelling at people for the results not being what you wanted also doesn’t change the experiment’s results.

    13. Erin*

      Yuuuup. I’m lucky to be in an industry with tight market, and the first time a boss yelled at me, I took the next headhunter call I received, instead of hitting ignore.

      He was shocked when I gave notice, which was shocking to me

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Or small business. I’ve never been screamed at by a boss but all the worst managing I’ve experienced was at small businesses where the owner wasn’t really answerable to anyone. Where I work now if the ED screamed there would be checks and balances.

      1. NotRealAnonForThis*

        Now that I’ve re-read it, I see “I am considering closing the business” so it’s most likely at least “small biz owner” and could easily be a restaurant.

        1. lizard*

          I would highly doubt restaurant since they had employees on call who went out to some kind of emergency; I was assuming maybe HVAC techs or something of a similar nature.

          1. Former Retail Lifer*

            I know in retail, you can be “on call.” There, you’re basically back-up coverage if someone doesn’t show up to work. Thinking it MIGHT be the case here.

            1. Womanaroundtown*

              I’m really thrown by the emergency starting at 7 PM and ending at 11 AM. Did they have to work 16 hours through the night? Or did they get to go home? Because regardless the manager’s response is inappropriate, but I think it’s doubly concerning if they’re talking about a 16 hour emergency situation.

              1. HelenB*

                I was hoping that was a typo and they only worked an extra 5 hours that night, then left work 5 hours early the next day. If it really was until 11 am the next day and they worked 16 hours, I wouldn’t say that was leaving early!

              2. I Have RBF*

                Yeah, if you spend 16 hours working an emergency, you should not have to take PTO the day after. You have already worked your hours for the second day. You should be able to go home and rest, and not have it come out of your PTO.

              3. E*

                Depending on what this business is, it could be 7pm to 11am emergency. I used to work for a company that held the on-call contract for the phone company. Some damage repairs could definitely take that long, like a car hitting a pole and taking it down along with all the cables.

              4. Can’t think of anything clever*

                If they normally work 7 am to 3:30 pm but were called in at 11 pm and left at 11 am the way I’d pay them is 11 pm to 7 am is overtime, 7 am to 11 am is regular time. They would have to account for 11 am to 3:30 and most would use vacation time. They came out ahead money wise or comp time accrual over how the previous manager handled that sort of thing. HR actually decided my way was more in line with pay rules in our state as well.

        2. Pair of Does*

          The “I’m considering closing the business” comment makes me go, yeah, that’s likely a good idea. If it’s going this badly and you don’t know how to fulfill your role as boss, maybe this just isn’t working out, and that’s ok. Your business doesn’t have a right to exist if you can’t run it without abusing your staff.

          1. Petty Crocker*

            My initial thought was “You may want to do that before the lawsuits start coming in.”

          2. NotBatman*

            This. If nothing else, OP is obviously very stressed and is not succeeding well at handling road bumps in this role. It would probably be for the best for everyone if they did take some time off to reconsider their priorities.

          3. Worldwalker*

            The OP is going to have some major staffing issues now. Some of the people who walked out will likely not be back. And all of them are right now telling their friends and relatives about their boss who was screaming profanity at them. That sort of thing gets around, and people who have any other choice of employment are not going to apply there.

            The OP has just set a filter of “willing to endure a boss who screams profanity at employees, and breaks doors.” A lot of the workers they want will be filtered out.

      2. Sloanicota*

        yeah I know small nonprofits take a lot of knocks, but I think small individual businesses are even more risky because the owner often sees themselves and their income in the success or not of the business. Understandably they are very invested. But since no other employee has that same incentive structure (and in fact both the companies I’m thinking of only offer minimum wage) there are limited ways to motivate the employees to equal passion, and yelling is a not-uncommon one.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          I currently work for a smallish nonprofit and it is 110% better than any of the small business where I worked, and the small business weren’t awful. Granted, Current Job is apparently notably functional, but still. And for all the reasons you listed: The owner mostly thinks of it as “his” (“hers”) and is reluctant to invest more than the minimum in anyone else, and nobody else has much incentive.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            Yeah, the thing about working for soulless corporations is that I never had to threaten to take them to small claims court over two months of back pay they’d forgotten to send me a check for. Or make up my own W2 form when they went out of business and I had no way to contact them.

        2. Lizzianna*

          Yeah, having worked for a small, family owned business (retail), there really was an underlying current that anything that cost money was coming out of the owners’ personal paychecks, and it lead to a lot of pressure to not pay for things that a normal business would pay for (or that they were required to pay for by law, like overtime).

          A coworker twisted her ankle when she took a misstep off the stepladder in the back, and you would have thought the workers’ comp claim was taking food out of the owners’ kids’ mouths the way they complained about it.

          I’ve worked for other small businesses where it wasn’t as extreme, but we still had the same undercurrent. If a small business really wants to be a healthy place to work, you have to think about the business expenses and profits as a separate entity from your personal pocket book, at least when dealing with your employees. Just like you wouldn’t lose it with a vendor charging whatever the going rate is for widgets, you shouldn’t lose it with your employees asking for standard payment and benefits.

          1. Dust Bunny*

            Absolutely this. I had a relative who had his own business for years and this was absolutely the way he thought. And it was absolutely a detriment to the business.

            1. Dust Bunny*

              And yes, he was the kind of guy who considered all his personal expenses to be “business expenses”. One of my siblings worked for him for a summer and they didn’t speak for fifteen years afterward.

            2. MigraineMonth*

              I worked for a year at a popular family-owned pizza place that had a location close to downtown, the high school and a college. We had a lot of delivery orders and a brisk business in walk-ins.

              What we didn’t have was anyone who ate *in* the parlor, which was dark, cramped, and hadn’t been refurbished/remodeled in probably 3o years. The owners decided not to invest in it, so we were that restaurant with the good food where no one wanted to eat.

          2. Zephy*

            I worked at a small local business for all of five weeks once – the owner had recently bought the business, and I guess maybe he didn’t have all the accounting information that would have shown him that things slow down dramatically for half the year because a huge proportion of the customer base are snowbirds that spend 6 months living somewhere that is not here. Like, he had a gangbusters first three weeks in business, decided he could hire a fourth employee, then everyone left for the season and he straight-up told me to my face that we’re not getting in enough customers to keep paying me (which was also implied to be my fault/problem – I just got here and I just answer the phones, man, you wanted a marketer you should have hired one), unless he starts doing so out of his own pocket, which he was emphatically unwilling to do. And like, fine, but you don’t SAY that to your employee. He was also just phenomenally stupid and an asshole in plenty of other ways, so I don’t know how much longer I would have stuck around even if the business was doing well, anyway. They are somehow still open as far as I’m aware, I shudder to think how.

      3. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        Very much. How does OP know:
        “The wife in this couple has a text group with all the employees on it. She has been sending out text messages talking B.S.”
        Unless OP is in a group chat with his employees, he shouldn’t know what one person is telling another about their day in the office. (and if it is a factual narrative describing the very things OP is writing to AAM about, it is probably not “BS” but that is another issue.)

        1. Azure Jane Lunatic*

          Yes, I for one would love to know the actual content of those messages, rather than just the description “B.S.”, as well as how OP knows this.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          No checks/balances, no training, and they’re often gambling their life savings. Yup, checks out.

          1. NotJane*

            Can confirm. The worst boss I ever had was a lawyer and she was a lot like this OP. I was young and a brand new paralegal so I put up with it too long because I needed “experience” to get another job. It was decades ago but I still have issues dealing with normal office conflict because it was so bad.

          2. Jaydee*

            Yeah, a lot of lawyers are small business owners, but law school teaches you basically nothing about running a small business.

            Also, for some reason lawyers – who you would think would know better because they know things about the law – are notoriously bad at things like not discriminating and following employment laws.

              1. Zephy*

                Or more like they know the law so they believe they can talk their way out of any potential legal trouble.

      5. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

        Yep, the only job I’ve ever flat out walked out on with no notice was a company of 25 people. The CEO was a trainwreck, and there was an outrageous level dysfunction and drama for such a tiny office.

        I will never, ever work for a small business again. I’m sure good ones are out there, but it was bad enough that it put me off of ever working for one again.

    2. LavaLamp*

      Could be something industrial too.

      We recently had a driver from another plant try to berate someone for moving the company truck out of the way. Our manager was like nope. We do not speak to each other that way.

    3. hohumdrum*

      Yeah, the only part of this account that shocked me was the mention of an “office”. There are a lot of jobs where being screamed at and cursed out by your manager is, unfortunately, very common. But office jobs aren’t usually one of those.

      LW, maybe consider a career change?

      2. Le Sigh*

        “There are a lot of jobs where being screamed at and cursed out by your manager is, unfortunately, very common. But office jobs aren’t usually one of those.”

        I don’t know that this is true. Maybe less common, who knows. But my friends and I have witnessed this in multiple office-type settings — media, government contracting, nonprofits, law firms, etc.

    4. EBG*

      There’s so much more that should have been said. You HAVE to pay your employees overtime when they attended to an emergency call from 7pm to 11am. Are you serious that they worked through the night and you’re angry that they left at 11am? They can’t humanly work more hours after working 16 hours through the night. Prepare for your employees to file a labor complaint against you. And prepare for the woman who had the door part fly at her to file a police complaint against you. You don’t need professional coaching; you need anger management training and therapy. I would say more but Alison would delete my comment.

  5. NotRealAnonForThis*

    Its not what the LW requested as far as advice but I’m going to agree with Alison here:

    Anger management and perhaps therapy.
    Perhaps step back from managing others until you have taken those first two steps.

    Long ago I had a boss who behaved like this. He was a functional alcoholic with anger issues. He is no longer anyone’s boss, by his own undoing.

    1. Wendy the Spiffy*

      I find yelling to be very deep, irrational-lizard-brain level terrifying. My body shakes when I’m around that kind of loud anger, and I can’t imagine choosing to be around it for any reason — whether or not it’s directed AT me. Just being near me is enough to have me doing everything in my power to get away.

      And, that flying piece of door could have taken someone’s eye. No one should come back to that.

      OP needs to get structured help for anger management, and for the leadership skills needed to stay level and reliable in every environment.

      1. NotBatman*

        Yes. Human beings have a right to not be around angry shouting, even if it isn’t directed at them. OP lost self-control, and probably frightened their coworkers far more than they realize.

        1. Mangled Metaphor*

          There is a huge, *huge*, HUGE difference in yelling scenarios.

          1) It’s a loud environment. Perfectly acceptable, this is just communicating at volume. Could be argued this isn’t even “yelling”.
          2) Someone is in *immediate* danger. Perfectly acceptable if it is the fastest way of getting their or someone else’s attention to get them out of said danger.
          3) An outburst in response to the yeller being in extreme sharp pain. Acceptable to a degree – we’re all human and yelling in extreme pain is a human response. Not entirely acceptable if subsequent yelling is directed at anyone trying to help them, etc. (I’ve been sworn at as a first aider and they immediately apologised. It wasn’t nice, but I wasn’t offended).
          4) Yelling undirected in response to a frustrating work scenario. Not acceptable – we’re on the sliding slope towards unregulated emotions and indicative of lower emotional intelligence.
          5) Yelling at someone about something at work. Unacceptable. In every situation. Get help – you shouldn’t be in any position over another person.

          1. ScruffyInternHerder*

            Even scenario 4 (in my industry) is accepted to a degree. It happens. It becomes a question of “how often” and “what exactly are you blowing up/venting at?”.

            Scenario 5 though? Yeah no. Not acceptable, agreed.

        2. MigraineMonth*

          Yelling at a peer coworker is unacceptable. Yelling at your own employees is several orders of magnitude worse. You have the power to *take their livelihoods away*; you don’t need any more than that.

          They have the power to decide that they will not take any additional abuse and walk away, though, if you make their lives miserable enough.

      3. iglwif*

        I have the same reaction, especially to adult men yelling.

        I know exactly where it comes from, and I’ve worked on it in therapy, but I don’t know that it’s ever going to go away, because in many ways it’s a pretty rational fear!

        In a previous job I was on a video call with 3 people several levels senior to me, 2 of whom were grown-ass men yelling at each other. I had to turn my camera off to conceal the panic attack I was having. The fourth person on the call, who was kind of a dotted-line manager to me at the time, was sympathetic but basically said “that’s just how they are.” Um, how about they STOP being like that??

    2. Wren*

      There are many studies saying that anger management actually makes things worse. A therapist, sure, maybe with some dbt thrown in to learn skills to deal with angry feelings. But anger management classes I wouldn’t recommend.

      1. Hexiv*

        Do you mean that anger management classes aren’t helpful overall, or that they’re not helpful specifically in situations where there’s abusive behavior present? Not trying to argue with you, just never heard the argument before and I’m curious about the studies.

        1. SS*

          I’ve learned this in reference to domestic violence/abuse situations. Anger Management helps the abuser get better at hiding their abuse from outsiders.

      2. Engineery*

        My understanding is that these sorts of therapies can give people introspection and tools to manage their anger, but it’s up to the person to decide what to do with those tools.

        If the person wants to stop hurting other people with their anger, the techniques in anger management may help them recognize when they are losing control and modulate their emotions.

        If the person enjoys hurting other people with their anger, the techniques in anger management will teach them the most effective ways to hurt their victims, and/or how to slip in and out of a rage for gaslighting purposes.

        A key indicator would be whether or not the person blows up at everyone, or if they only blow up at people they have real or perceived power over. In the latter case, the person is already managing their anger – they’re using it to hurt people they want to hurt, and restraining themselves in situations where explosive anger would cause them negative consequences.

  6. Dust Bunny*

    This whole workplace sounds like a hot mess.

    The LW apparently either has no control over their employees or has failed to communicate policies so supervisors are just doing whatever, and then the LW doesn’t discipline appropriately (“she did what she wanted today”, yeah, ok–but did you address it? Or did you steam until you blew up?) and then screams when the policies aren’t followed? Ok.

    1. Fergus*

      it sounds like the rules are whatever the person (owner or ceo) changes at a whim. so the people are tired of their crap. if it was so bad I left I am not coming back

    2. Anonys*

      I know whether or not the employees did anything wrong/did or didn’t follow instructions is totally beside the point at this point but I also don’t really understand LWs complaint reg the vacation thing at all?

      LW says:
      “Most of this started when our payroll clerk informed me that two employees wrote vacation on their timecards when they left early. Let me explain. They were on call the day before and got called out at 7pm. They did not complete the emergency until 11 am. Their supervisor told them they could go home if they wanted. Understandably, they did. They were given a choice. I have no problem paying them overtime for the time they worked. I do not believe that I owe them vacation for leaving and going home. Their supervisor did not approve the overtime.”

      It sounds like the employees left at 11am, after working for 16 hours (!) on some kind of emergency. After that they understandably left, with supervisors permission (noone can work properly after being up all night) and they actually put it down as vacation time on their time sheets. How does that mean LW “owes them vacation for leaving”? To me that sounds like the opposite, ie. they filled their time cards out in a way that they vacation time would be docked, when they had just worked 16 hours, which sounds more unfair to the employees?

      Someone please clarify if I’m misunderstanding

      1. Pair of Does*

        I took it as, they left at e.g. 11 when they’re supposed to stay till 5, so put down six hours of vacation time rather than taking that six hours unpaid.

        1. Tio*

          That’s what I read as well. Looks like OP is thinking the emergency took place of their shift, so they shouldn’t have had more vacation in a single day – but dear lord, that is NOT something to lose your mind over. It’s at best a minor payroll correction and five minute meeting/email/text informing people of the expectations, like “Hey you can’t do vacation for the day if you’ve already met your hours with an emergency shift.” And unless you’re even in a state where overtime is done per day and not week, what difference does it make if they take their vacation that day? Seems like it would be better since they wouldn’t be working either way, now you don’t have to plan on them using it another day where you’re busier and expected them to come in.

        2. Lizzianna*

          I think LW is upset that they got paid for 12am-11am PLUS 6 hours of leave, vs. just getting paid for 12am-11am. Which, as a manager, would be a choice I would give my team, given that their normal shift didn’t have them working in the middle of the night, so I’d want to recognize that financially. Especially because, presumably, they don’t have unlimited PTO, so those 6 hours would have come from a bank that LW should have already accounted for.

        3. House On The Rock*

          Yes this is my interpretation as well. The LW thinks that “giving” them vacation time, meaning they’d get paid at their regular rate for the rest of the normal workday, is unreasonable and that caused the crisis.

          Clearly LW doesn’t see vacation/PTO as part of their employees’ total compensation package, but something to be “given” or allowed. LW does acknowledge that they should get OT for the time worked overnight and also that it’s reasonable for them not to work the rest of their shift after working all night.

          That being said, the line about their supervisor “not approving OT” is also weird – I would think that many places the employees are probably owed OT regardless of whether it was approved. But maybe this plays into the “justification” that the employees should have taken the rest of the workday unpaid.

      2. Petty Betty*

        To me, this sounds like a small plumbing business.

        Workers worked their full shift day on say Tuesday. Then Tuesday evening got called back at 7PM for an emergency that lasted until 11AM Wednesday morning. Supervisor gave permission for them to leave early (understandably) Wednesday because of the overnight emergency call.
        Not knowing how to appropriately mark their timesheets, they marked “vacation” for their unfinished Wednesday hours. Supervisor for some reason didn’t approve their EMERGENCY OVERNIGHT Tuesday/Wednesday callout.
        Payroll is confused. LW is pissed because he has unapproved OT, vacation time payout requests, and what looks like no formal policy/procedure for this sort of situation.

        Does that give LW any right to act the way he did? No. It means there’s lacks in policy/procedure that need to be fixed, and while LW may want to be a business owner, he may not be cut out for all aspects of it and needs to step back and let others handle the aspects he’s not good at. Delegation is going to be his best friend. Once he apologizes and makes some serious amends for what he’s done.

      3. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

        “I have no problem paying them overtime for the time they worked.”

        I was about to say something snarky about not having a problem following the law, but then I remembered that most states don’t mandate OT for daily OT, only for weekly OT as required by federal law.

        But that supervisor not authorizing OT pay for something called an “emergency” is pure crap.

    3. KitKat*

      Hot mess indeed.

      I also worked for a company (about 125 employees) where the CEO was a yeller. He did not command the respect of his employees. He was seen as petty, childish, and difficult, and people talked about it pretty openly (not within his hearing, of course). He was not able to retain great talent at management levels.

      OP: Getting respect requires giving respect. There’s a ton of great advice on this site about what that looks like. If you want employees who respect you and do what you ask, you need to be a good and trustworthy manager. There simply is not a path to get there through yelling.

    4. The Rafters*

      OPs employees all do what they want and not what OP wants. If employees are not doing what OP wants, either OP changes their work orders like a baby’s diaper, or OP wants something done that is illegal.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        If this letter is a typical example of their communication style, I would put money on a) LW doesn’t clearly communicate what they want their employees to be doing, b) LW reacts poorly to clarifying questions, c) LW flies off the handle when employees try to do what they asked but misunderstand, and eventually d) employees stop trying to do what LW asks since they get yelled at either way.

        Alternately, LW screams at people when they do something wrong, but doesn’t ever actually manage incompetent/insubordinate employees out. Eventually the team realizes that LW screams a lot but won’t actually fire anyone, so it’s fine to continue to be incompetent or insubordinate.

    5. Ms. Murchison*

      When I read that the entire staff did work other than what the LW had instructed them to do, “did the opposite of what I instructed…did what she wanted,” I immediately wondered if his orders are out of sync with what’s actually needed to keep the company afloat and the employees were putting out fires that the LW didn’t recognize or care about. Or that he was ordering them to do something illegal, against industry regulations, unethical, or unsafe, and the employees decided to follow regulations/safety best practices instead.

  7. Elliot*

    WOW. LW really raising their hand for worst boss of the year….

    In all seriousness. There is absolutely no reason to yell at your employees. You need to get management training and work on controlling your temper. I am glad they walked out and put their safety first.

    1. Snarkus Aurelius*

      I’m genuinely surprised no one recorded this blowup and/or didn’t call the police, primarily because the LW was demanding that they not leave the premises.

      If you’re so out of control that you’re *following you employees who are physically trying to get away from your abuse,* you’ve got bigger problems. Nothing they have done justifies your behavior. I don’t care if they stole or no showed to work. No one deserves such treatment.

      Seriously, maybe you should close your business, especially because you lost sight of the fact you need your employees. You’re putting yourself at so much risk by keeping it open.

      1. Tio*

        I doubt the police would intervene in someone telling you not to leave the premises unless they were actually stopping you. Bad bosses can say a lot of over-the-top things, but there’s not technically a need for intervention if they’re all talk, like it sounds OP was since everyone DID leave. And you are technically allowed to tell employees (to a degree) that they can’t leave *and keep their job*.

      2. GrumpyPenguin*

        In a case like that, I would absolutely have called the police. Op’s behaviour sounds terrifying to me. My thought in this situation would have been:”Get out of here ASAP before OP starts hitting people.”

      3. Kara*

        I mean, I would have fully expected to see this on TikTok or Insta in most cases. I hope for OPs sake that no one in his office recorded his tantrum.

    2. The Rafters*

      I agree. In fact, I’m not sure we need to have a vote on this at the end of the year as usual. The fact that they wrote all of this down and don’t understand what they did that was so horrific is very telling.

        1. Fieldpoppy*

          IIRC we don’t nominate letter writers for worst boss, only the people LW’s write about.

      2. Jackalope*

        Alison’s policy is not to use letters where someone wrote in for Worst Boss of the Year because she doesn’t want people to be discouraged from writing in.

    3. GrumpyPenguin*

      I will remember this OP as “AngryManager burning all the bridges and then realizing they’re now stuck on a lonely island.”

    4. Ivkra*

      Letter writers aren’t eligible for that; one year, when an LW wound up on the list, Alis canceled the whole thing. It disincentivizes managers asking for help.

  8. MsM*

    I recognize this forum is focusing on the work angle and trying not to armchair diagnose, but I still think it’s important to note that getting so angry you’re destroying things and causing literal collateral damage not only means you need help figuring out how to manage other people: you need to get a grip on how to manage yourself. That’s a job for therapy/anger management, and I really hope you’re not too dug in on everyone else “overreacting” to be open to it.

    1. Paint N Drip*

      +1
      As someone who struggles with anger, having control over it feels WAY better. Getting THAT angry only leads to other things that make you rage, and the pattern rolls on. OP you would be doing yourself the biggest favor by addressing this – your life, your business, your relationships would improve

    2. Ready for the weekend*

      Yes, OP could have seriously hurt someone with what was thrown. And face legalities.

    3. Sarah*

      Came to say the same. This letter didn’t strike me as someone who needed help on how to manage others, but as someone with clear rage/anger issues who is unable to appropriately regulate their emotions. First stop should be some deep self reflection. Second should be a therapist’s office.

    4. Pizza Zoombini*

      Does anger management coaching / therapy work for this kind of thing? Just curious, I’ve always wondered. Outbursts like this seem so beyond the pale to me that I can’t imagine how it works in either direction – how a person can get to this level of tantrum behavior thinking it’s normal/fine, and then how they can change that once they’re that far off the norm.

      1. Elbe*

        My understanding is that it works well for people who were never taught any emotional regulation skills, but who genuinely want to behave better.

        There are a lot of very negligent parents and a lot of kids who grow up in households where yelling and having tantrums is a normal part of life. They have a very rude awakening when they get out into the world and get very bad feedback from other people. They either try to find friends/partners who have the same low standards as they do, or they try to change.

        1. Arrietty*

          Yes, there are many families where this is the standard response to “disrespect” or “disobedience”. Children in those families grow up to be one of two kinds of adult: the kind that hates yelling and panics when exposed to it, or the kind that yells. Enter therapy, to create the third kind: the kind of adult who learns how to manage emotions healthily. But it isn’t easy.

          1. Global Cat Herder*

            My hairdresser Carol is open about being this third kind, and the very large amount of work it took to get there. Her mom doesn’t understand why she doesn’t bring the kids to visit, even when Carol says “it’s because of the yelling”. Mom literally doesn’t register that she’s yelling, “it’s just how families talk to each other.” *eyeroll*

        2. wavefunction*

          Yeah, my father was verbally abusive and DBT helped a lot because he just didn’t have any skills for emotional regulation. But there has to be an understanding of the harm one’s doing and a willingness to change (which can take a tremendous amount of work). I haven’t met anyone else with an abusive family member who sincerely apologized and actually changed their behavior, so my anecdata would say most people don’t get there.

          1. Dog momma*

            Mine was too. He and mom did a lot of yelling. So I was very quiet & tried to fade into the wallpaper. Didn’t always work & was detrimental when I became an adult. Took a long time for me to stick up for myself. personally and professionally. Much anxiety at the time.

          2. inksmith*

            Most of them don’t get to the “understanding the harm and willing to change” bit – as far as they’re concerned, if the other person didn’t do x, the abuser wouldn’t need to yell/sulk/talk down to them/throw a tantrum etc. They’re just doing what anyone would do in that situation – not realising that actually, most people don’t scream at their kid for correcting them on something (just as an example, not that my dad ever told me “when you’re perfect, you can correct me”, implying that he, of course, is perfect. While trapped in a car that he was driving).

    1. Snarkus Aurelius*

      This right here.

      Also I was very confused as to what the policies were, the vacation time details, and what was charged to what time bucket. If I can’t figure out what you mean, I’m not sure your employees do either.

      Small business are known for flying by the seat of their pants, and I was getting this vibe here too. “I’m the boss so whatever I say goes even if I said the opposite thing yesterday.”

    3. Festively Dressed Earl*

      Yup. That was the favorite ending line of my old manager’s worst motivational meetings ever.

      1. Announce mandatory “come to Jesus” meeting with a day or two notice, well before restaurant opened.
      2. Open by telling everyone that “you’re not special, you’re a dime a dozen!”
      3. 20-30 minutes of screaming and swearing.
      4. Several good employees walk out.
      5. “Well, I guess no one wants to work anymore.”

      1. Meep*

        God. My old toxic boss used to use the whole “come to Jesus” line to refer to any push back when she was out of line. It along with “send a fresh copy” (of an email sitting five messages down in her inbox because she couldn’t be bothered) are still trigger phrases for me and my minted C-PSTD.

  10. HR DOO*

    I worked with a manager who raised their voice at another employee. Investigation showed that they did not yell, but their body language and words they used were intolerable. We terminated their employment.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Applauding this! People don’t need to yell or threaten bodily harm to be abusive, and good employees will not tolerate being treated that way. You can’t maintain a decent staff or run a successful business unless you handle these situations.

    2. TheBunny*

      I worked with someone with a heavy Middle Eastern accent. He spoke loudly everywhere. He wasn’t yelling but the perception was that he was…especially if he was frustrated, which happens to all of us.

      He was horrified anyone would ever even think he was yelling at them. He worked on being more aware and the team also worked in recognizing he wasn’t yelling.

      It’s possible to care about how you treat people. Good for your company for letting that person go.

    3. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      Yes, OP’s distinction “I yelled and cussed, but I did not say anything discriminatory,”
      Insulting and threatening your staff without using racist or sexist slurs is not the moral high ground you think it is.

      1. Willow*

        Yes, and he tries to excuse it by saying they all frequently curse, but there’s a big difference between cursing and cursing at someone.

      2. Le Sigh*

        “I screamed, I bullied, and I made people fearful for their physical safety. But I wasn’t racist or sexist!!”

        Like, okay, here’s a cookie?

        1. Insert Clever Name Here*

          Yeah, well done for not making an awful situation a horrible one I guess?

      3. iglwif*

        LW, I hope that you can read Allison’s response and the comments here and start to understand your employees’ point of view.

        I yelled and cussed, but I did not say anything discriminatory.

        You don’t have to say anything explicitly discriminatory in order to freak people out, scare them, or make them feel uncomfortable and unsafe in your presence.

        It does not sound to me like you have a good handle on how to manage your employees, how to assign work and communicate effectively what you expect from them. I don’t know what type of business you are in, but every type of business needs those things, and NO type of business needs yelling, violent door-slamming, or threats.

        Please try to imagine yourself as an employee, and how you would feel if your boss behaved towards you the way you describe yourself behaving in your letter. Imagine the only power you have in the relationship is the ability to leave the building.

  11. Three Flowers*

    Remember the disgruntled person who took a dump in a flowerpot on the way out? I think we found a situation in which that might be, if not justifiable, at least understandable.

    LW, please take Alison’s advice and get some help, including help identifying whatever it is in your outside-work life that is feeding your temper.

  12. Guest*

    People, including Yours Truly, lose their cool at times. However, LW’s adding cursing at people and breaking company property into the mix is way OTT. I also wouldn’t be surprised if this is at least a somewhat regular thing for LW.

    1. Three Flowers*

      Slamming a door so hard it *breaks* suggests a major ongoing anger problem…or ‘roid rage. Either way, I agree, this doesn’t sound like a one-off at all.

      1. MsM*

        Yeah, the fact LW is grudgingly sorry but thinks it shouldn’t be that big a deal because they didn’t actually hit the employee, instead of being scared things got that out of hand is wild to me.

        1. Tio*

          This. Sometimes you are not a good version of yourself. But the response to that is remorse and problem solving, and the OP’s response instead is “Please tell me how to explain to them that this was fine and they kinda deserved it.” In fact, there is a HUGE undertone of “Well you made me act like this because of your behavior” that is very common with abusers, and needs to be put into check IMMEDIATELY.

          1. Velawciraptor*

            Particularly when read in conjunction with the “I reminded them of who they work for” line in the first paragraph.

            Your employees are not your possessions. They are not your slaves. They are not your serfs. They are human beings as deserving of respectful treatment as you are, OP.

            This behavior was unprofessional and abusive. Any mistakes your employees made in the day essentially become moot when you act in this way: your behavior is so outrageous and out of proportion to provocation that you become the problem.

            Please apologize abjectly. Seek both management training and some therapy. You need to reframe how you see the people who work for you and how you see your role in your professional environment. Hint: that role is not infallible god-emperor.

          2. Lime green Pacer?*

            +1

            I yelled at my partner yesterday. i apologized IMMEDIATELY and reminded him that I was feeling quite unwell. I wish I wouldn’t blow up when I feel crappy, I try to avoid it, but an immediate, sincere apology helps to put things right.

            1. Dawn*

              You have my sympathies; I also get extremely grumpy when I’m not feeling well, and generally I do my best to shut out everyone until I’m feeling more myself.

        2. Middle Aged Lady*

          What stood out to me was ‘supposedly’ almost hit another person. It happened. Minimizing it won’t help. The LW has to face reality that they lost their temper in a big way and it’s serious. I hope they get the help they need and come to terms with how unacceptable their behavior was.
          Closing the business might be the best idea.

        3. Space Needlepoint*

          I don’t think LW is sorry that they yelled, I think they’re sorry they have to face the consequences. There’s a whole lot of rationalization for the anger in the letter and the regret of the behavior is minimal.

      2. Eldritch Office Worker*

        The first time any employee did this, manager or not, I’d be walking them out the door.

      3. sparkle emoji*

        Yeah, because how many times do you have to slam a door before the door itself starts falling apart??

    2. Sloanicota*

      I admit I’ve been wondering what’s up with my temper lately. I keep screaming at other cars while driving – not something I used to be prone to – and it was increasingly hard to keep my cool with my pets. If OP wants to reflect, my first question would be if they’ve always been prone to yelling like this, or has it been increasing during their tenure in this role? Some people, particularly those who grow up in yelling houses, don’t think about it much and go through their whole lives this way. Other times it’s a sign that something has gotten out of whack. It can also be a medical symptom, including mental health.

        1. Three Flowers*

          Fatigue, and anything that is a perpetual uncertainty (waiting for the other shoe to drop at work/in a relationship/when medical tests come back/etc). It’s hard to recognize that situations where nothing has actually happened, but we live in perpetual anxiety that it might, are debilitating.

          1. geek5508*

            “(waiting for the other shoe to drop at work/in a relationship/when medical tests come back/etc)” – this is me right now. I recently had an MRI and DAT scan and am awaiting results. I am on edge but trying not to show it.

          2. not nice, don't care*

            I think of it as smelling smoke from a wildfire. At some level you always know it’s there and at any moment could blaze up and force evacuations. So much of our world is on fire, literally and metaphorically, that it’s natural to have some level of anxiety at all times.

        2. Orv*

          For me it’s usually low blood sugar. I get fiercely hangry in ways I have trouble controlling, and I’m normally a very mild mannered person.

      2. Dawn*

        If I can offer a suggestion, my mood improved drastically (and noticeably to people in my life) when I deleted my social media accounts – largely Facebook and Twitter – and removed for myself the temptation to keep going back to sites literally designed to keep their readers angry. I have a far, far easier time letting things go now.

        1. Elsewise*

          Same! Deleted Facebook, cut down my news consumption to max twice a day. I also decreased caffeine and started exercising more and doing yoga, but honestly, even just the social media change was enough to drastically reduce my anger.

          Another thing to point out to yourself is that anger is often another emotion in disguise. For me it’s anxiety/trauma. I recently got set off by something that happened near me and I was so furious for hours, but because I’ve been in a lot of therapy, I was able to recognize this as my brain trying to protect me from a perceived threat and self-soothe until the anxiety decreased enough I could feel more balanced. My partner was there with me and I vented to them and they reminded me not to raise my voice when I started getting heated. I didn’t yell at them, I didn’t slam any doors or break anything or act in self-destructive ways. I was in control.

      3. Tally miss*

        Have you started any new medications? I refuse to take antihistamines because they make me explode in anger somewhere around days 8 -10 completely randomly with no idea it is about to happen until I’m screaming and crying hysterically. New medications can have weird side effects.

        1. GrumpyPenguin*

          That happened to me with an anticonvulsant and it was frightening. Luckily I was able to switch to another medication. Still weird.

      4. Lils*

        Yeah. I’ve gotten more grumpy as my cis-female body ages toward menopause. It’s upsetting and exhausting. I know medical consultations are an option if it gets too bad, but for now I’m trying to manage it by giving myself more time, prepare more thoroughly, get more rest, etc.–basically, reduce my own frustration in advance by any means possible. Every day I think: how can I make my life easier? In this manager’s shoes, I’d start by thinking about how I could make real damn sure my entire staff didn’t want to walk off the job. That seems likely to heighten their frustration, not reduce it.

        1. NotJane*

          The menopause rage is so real! I’ve always been a soft-spoken, laid back person and I’ve been shocked at the level of anger that I can reach. Thank god for therapy!

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            The TV show Grantchester has this as a plotline now: Cathy is going through “the change,” and is terrified she’s going to end up like her mother (who is bipolar; the treatments for that were not great in the 1950s) and ends up put on “Mother’s Little Helpers” by her condescending ass of a doctor.

            Mrs. C comes to the rescue with a box of assorted china for smashing and informs her that it’s totally normal and she has to tell her husband what she’s going through. The actress who plays Cathy does a great job just going incandescent with rage and the bewilderment and shame of the aftermath.

          2. Lils*

            It’s so nice to have one’s experience validated, even by internet strangers, so thank you. And yes therapy is the BEST!

            All these comments can be summarized: it is reasonable and good to check in with your physician and do a review of the medicines and supplements you’re taking, just to rule out physiological causes. Make some lifestyle adjustments to help reduce stress. It’s ok to experience surprising mood changes; it’s not ok to ignore it when your anger is making other people feel unsafe.

        1. Bartleby the scribbler*

          Irritability can also be a symptom of depression or burnout. Which can be precipitated by hormonal changes, circumstances, or *waves generally at everything going on in the world.* Personally, my depression and irritability were symptoms of unrecognized neurodivergence. Once I got a diagnosis and started making small changes, things got a lot better.

          1. anon today*

            The point about medications is a good one in general; when I was having really intense, really scary rage at very small frustrations it turned out I was on too high a dose of Vyvanse. I never did anything outwardly (I’ve done a lot of work on what used to be a very short fuse before I ever started Vyvanse) but lowering it got rid of the new hair trigger urge to scream at people and throw/break things.

            I’m not saying that’s LW’s situation but just to share. I was relieved that the fix was so simple because it had been going on for months and was really distressing. Can be worth it to talk to someone about that type of anger, especially if it’s out of character for you.

        2. Dog momma*

          Yes, I noticed it yrs ago when I was going through it. . Also felt like my blood was just rushing through my veins. Called my doc and took a mild anti anxiety med for probably6 yrs, then went off it. That got me through the awful mood swings. They were terrifying

      6. Rand McRanderson*

        Blood pressure was a factor for me when I found I was unusually irritable for an extended period of time

      7. Snarl Trolley*

        It took me a solid 30 years of life to realize my frequent anger meltdowns were sensory-overload/neurodivergent meltdowns from masking and not having proprioceptive skills to identify overwhelm until it exploded all at once. I know it could be many things, but figuring this one out genuinely changed my entire life and plans for the future for the better, so gotta drop it in the convo. <3 Best of luck!

  13. Bananapants*

    Besides the obvious wild behavior, I’m confused about why OP is saying “I do not believe that I owe them vacation for leaving and going home.” Is that not time off they had aleady earned, and more cost-effective to the company than paying OT? Feels like this is being perceived by OP as the staff members receiving a “reward” for “slacking off,” whereas they would be seen as good employees if they worked their usual hours the next day and took OT.

    2. mango chiffon*

      I’m also confused as to what exactly happened with this vacation/overtime. They worked from 7 pm-11 am and then went home? But this was bad because what exactly???

      1. Dawn*

        If I’m reading it right, because he expected them to just take the day unpaid, in spite of the fact they’d just gone above and beyond for the business.

            1. Dawn*

              Yes, same. It’s not absolutely impossible but this is one of the very few letters I’ve ever read on AAM and instantly said “this is a man speaking”.

            3. Eldritch Office Worker*

              I wouldn’t be astonished. I’ve worked with women like this. Man is statistically more likely but let’s not give women a pass on being violent and angry simply for being women.

              1. Tio*

                I’m voting man simply for the statistical odds that it’s way easier for them to slam a door so hard it breaks than for a woman to. Not impossible, obviously, but also I think if a woman were doing things like this people would have shame-intervened sooner.

              2. Ivkra*

                This. I have absolutely known women who would write every word of this letter and see themselves as the victim of unreasonable employees.

              3. Dawn*

                But it’s not just the anger, or the slamming of the door. Speaking, you know, as a woman, I’m hardly given women a pass here; Alison has asked that we be kind, so I’m not going to enumerate all of my thoughts, but there’s…. there’s a lot of signals in this letter I’d expect near-exclusively from a man. While nothing is entirely the province of any particular gender, I would genuinely be shocked if this letter weren’t written by a man.

            4. Zeus*

              I wouldn’t, but then I lived with a woman who once slammed my door so hard it broke the frame.

              (She got better)

          2. Garden Gnome*

            No, I think it’s a man (and owner) and it seems to be a service business like HVAC or something. Nevertheless, it sounds like he needs to hire a manager and take a step back.

          3. Festively Dressed Earl*

            So did I, but that’s because my personal experience with a verbally abusive manager was with a woman. I think a lot of us are envisioning our scariest boss as the OP.

            1. Jake*

              also, on this site the default pronoun is she/ her instead of he/ him, so on this site in particular, I find myself always assuming woman.

        2. Cmdrshprd*

          Right, it seems in OP’s mind getting the rest of the day off unpaid is the “benefit”/OP being such a gracious and benevolent boss.

          I think when the employees were told they could take the rest of the day off they understood it as paid day off. Aka 11 am to 5 pm (or normal closing time) was going to be paid as a normal work day, on top of the OT for the night before.

        3. I Have RBF*

          But the OT for the 16 hours covers that day. They’ve already worked their 8 for the day. They should not have to take vacation to go home, the time already worked should count.

          1. Green great dragon*

            If they got paid OT for the full 14ish hours from 7pm to shift start then they do technically owe their employer the rest of their shift, and taking vacation would balance that out. But a) vacation balances is out so I still don’t see what the issue is and b) that’s serious nickle-and-diming and doesn’t take into account the fact humans need sleep.

      2. Alice*

        It’s a coercive control thing that’s hard to understand unless you’ve experienced it. Bad managers will use the same tactics as someone abusing a significant other to keep control and make sure they don’t leave. To them it’s easier and cheaper than making it an appealing place to work. Really common in the veterinary world, actually, because you can throw in “you don’t care about animals” if your employee needs to sleep after being up all night with a sick animal and can’t pull a full 10-12 hour day of appointments on no rest. My last boss would lose his damn mind if I left even 30 minutes early after being up for 36 hours straight, even in our slow season. He thought we were robbing him even if we worked over 70 hours that week.

        2. Lea*

          Yikes
          I’m glad someone pointed this out bc in addition to being bad management and illogical it seems like there is probably something illegal in there

        3. agonyaunt*

          I experienced this at my worst ever job (who OP is giving me serious shades of the senior management there). I am not a morning person so when I worked in an office, getting to the office was my main focus for the morning, resulting – at most jobs – in me being in the door anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes before my actual start time. At worst job, eventually it became an expectation that I’d be there early, to the point that senior management started commenting in the negative and noting it on my performance reviews on the days that I arrived on time (not late, mind you, but at/closer to the time I was supposed start at).

        4. Emily Prentiss*

          Frankly, I wouldn’t want anyone to be looking after or performing procedures on my beloved pets (or any animal) if they are insufficiently well rested and I think anyone who genuinely “cares about animals” would agree.

      3. Debby*

        I am also confused-isn’t vacation time the employees to use? I assume they don’t have unlimited vacation time, so it comes from THEIR benefit. Usually you accrue vacation time, it’s a benefit you have earned. Maybe he was upset that they left after working a 16 hour day?

      4. We Put the Fun in Dysfunctional*

        I’m wondering if it’s meant to be 7-11 pm and boss felt they still owed a half day vs all of the next day off. But people who value facetime would still perceive working until 11 am as “cutting out early” because they only value work that happens while they’re also in the office.

    3. RIP Pillowfort*

      I suspect they mean that they were on-call the day before, worked the emergency into their scheduled shift the next day, but were then told they could go home instead of getting OT by working the shift out.

      Which having done stuff like this OP is wildly overreacting. Even though they could get OT- they just worked through the night! They need to get some sleep! The fact they put it down as vacation seems like something that could be cleared up rather than spurring a yelling situation about it.

      2. Brain the Brian*

        “Go home today if you’re too tired to be here. We’ll figure out your time coding tomorrow” — and then giving employees the option of using vacation or taking unpaid leave, depending on their preference — would IMO have been the right way to handle this. All with calm conversations, of course.

      3. Katara's side braids*

        Thank you for explaining this! I was super lost.

        I’m guessing LW works in an industry that’s high stakes and emotionally draining (like the veterinary and health care examples people have mentioned). Those industries are ripe for the kind of abuse described here, especially if managers don’t have the self-awareness or emotional maturity to be a grounding presence when shit hits the fan. I definitely agree with Alison’s suggestions, but also wonder if LW is just not cut out for a management position in their (or any) industry.

    4. Tio*

      The best I can make of this:

      They were supposed to have a regular 9-5 shift after the emergency ended around 11am, but used vacation to go home AS THEY WERE OFFERED and he’s mad that he has to pay them overtime because it’s practically a 24hr shift.

      1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

        Yeah, I’m having trouble wrapping my head around this one- we need more info about how the shifts are broken out and why they weren’t automatically given OT since 7 PM until 11 AM is 16 hours and I’d think there would be OT, regardless of how it breaks out. I assume that this is something like a 24/7 service like a plumber or HVAC or even ambulance service where shifts aren’t cut and dry and running over probably is common.

        1. Observer*

          I’m having trouble wrapping my head around this one- we need more info about how the shifts are broken out and why they weren’t automatically given OT since

          I don’t think it really matters, even though it’s possible that what the LW wants is actually not legal (depending on the work and the locality).

          Because even if they were correct about how the payroll should have worked (which I doubt, but still…) this kind of behavior is just incredibly toxic.

          1. carrot cake*

            Yes, agreed. It’s such a minor detail and doesn’t at all speak to the yelling and slamming/damaging office doors.

          2. Cmdrshprd*

            I think the “vacation” time is maybe paid time by the company and not being deducted from their normal/usual “PTO balance.”

            That is really the only way it makes sense to me to get upset (not to the level that OP displayed.

            That the 11am to 5pm (or normal close time) employees were thinking it was being paid by the company as an extra thank you in addition to the OT already worked.

            But OP was upset that they wanted even more “thanks” in addition to being paid the OT for the 7pm to 9am (assuming the 9am to 11 am time was part of the normal shift) I have seen/heard some places where OT is seen as a benefit/perk to the employee rather than a benefit to the company.

            But it could also be that by even using their own “vacation/PTO” time for 11am to 5 pm they are making OP pay more in OT.

            So 7pm to 9 am is 14 hours of OT (counting 9am to 11 am as part of their normal shift), but if they leave at 11 am for unpaid time off, those 6 hrs of unpaid time off (11 am to 5pm) helps offset the OT so that OP only ends up paying 8 hrs of OT, versus the paying 14 hrs of OT if the employees use their own vacation/PTO balance towards the time they took off.

            1. wickyj*

              It sounds to me like the supervisor, who didn’t approve the OT, just told them to go home so he wouldn’t have to pay the OT (however the hours/days worked out). When they put PTO for the day they were told to go home, that would count toward their total hours for the week, pushing them back into OT range (probably at time and a half).

              So, if you imagine that, if they had gone home and not taken PTO that day, they may have been at 40 hours for the week. But if they charged a PTO day, they’re at 48 hours for the week and 8 hours of it is overtime at a higher rate. This guy seems like he might be “sensitive” about feeling like he’s being shortchanged, and he lost it.

              All that said, it hardly matters. Have a conversation. Write a policy. Send an email. That’s how professionals (should) handle conflict. And this one wasn’t even serious.

        2. Boof*

          I’m really confused too, “I have no problem paying overtime for what they worked” – so… overtime isn’t the issue, I guess. But what is “owing vacation”? I don’t understand why OP finds this label a problem, or why they completely lost it over this.
          OP, if “multiple employees had done the opposite of what I instructed” maybe you need to look at either your instructions, or (much less likely) your hiring practices (I’m doubtful it’s the employees here just from what you’ve written about your instructions)
          Closing up shop is a reasonable idea if you don’t see a path to changing what you are doing otherwise, though.

        3. RC*

          Yeah I’m confused on that whole bit– shouldn’t they have gone home at 11 and already also got overtime?

        4. Eldritch Office Worker*

          I don’t think we need more info. It’s a flavor detail and doesn’t really change anything about the advice. It might add shades of legal issues but those would have the same answer – learn how to manage.

        5. sparkle emoji*

          This complicated vacation thing feels like it could be related to this business being very small and them doing things in wonky ways due to being so small. Obviously we don’t have the details but I can imagine a small business owner with other concerning tendencies using a vacation time system that doesn’t follow standards because they’re small enough it’s unlikely to be noticed.

    5. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      Yeah, I was confused about this, too. They got called out and worked for 16 hours (7PM to 11AM) and for some reason the LW is upset they didn’t stay longer?

      Or that they’re using their PTO instead of being unpaid for the time between 11AM and the end of their regular shift? If so, this seems like a desire to punish. Why shouldn’t they use the PTO that’s part of their compensation, rather than taking a financial hit of unpaid hours?

      1. ZSD*

        Oh, I see that other people are reading this differently than I was. I thought they got called in at 7 PM, but then their manager told them they could go home, so they went home for the night, and consequently the emergency didn’t get addressed until the next morning, when people came back in to work. It seems like others are reading this to indicate that they worked straight from 7 PM to 11 AM, and then went home, and the LW is upset about that?! That’s nuts!

        1. Boof*

          As best I can tell OP is upset that the time (after they left) was labeled “vacation”, but it’s mysterious to me why this is a problem. As best I can guess it means OP has to pay them more for it, but usually vacation is a limited bucket people can draw from so… why not? Do they offer unlimited PTO then get mad when people use it? IDK.

          1. Cmdrshprd*

            I think because by using “vacation/PTO” it makes OP pay more in OT. If I work 40 hours in 4 days, and take one day of “unpaid” vacation, work only has to pay for 4o hours, but if I instead work 40 hrs in 4 days, and take the 5th day as paid “vacation/PTO” then work would be force to pay me for 48 hrs, but with 8 of those hours being paid at OT 1.5x rate.

            1. Boof*

              That is really weird and if true sounds like an unfortunate documentation/bureaucratic thing that the OP just has to explain how to log break time after an overtime shift. I thought OT kicked in like california ”

              One and one-half times the employee’s regular rate of pay for all hours worked in excess of eight hours up to and including 12 hours in any workday, and for the first eight hours worked on the seventh consecutive day of work in a workweek; and
              Double the employee’s regular rate of pay for all hours worked in excess of 12 hours in any workday and for all hours worked in excess of eight on the seventh consecutive day of work in a workweek.
              ”
              But why on earth would vacation have to be counted as over time O-o Even US department of labor seems to say “If your employer allows you to take time off for a holiday, a vacation, or because you are sick, the time off, even though you are paid for the time, is not hours worked and need not be included in the total hours worked for overtime purposes.”

              so… still no idea!

        2. spiriferida*

          I read this the same way, that employees left an emergency sitting overnight because their supervisor let them go early. But in that case that’s on the supervisor, and the boss should be talking with them about ensuring that there’s emergency coverage. They shouldn’t be screaming at people and slamming doors.

        3. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          Yeah, I had to read it a couple times to (maybe) figure out what was going on.

    6. Lea*

      One time I had to travel until early early morning so I took leave the next day.

      It sounds like ops employees literally WORKED all night and they are mad they didn’t want to work the next day???,?

      That is wild. They are tired

    7. Confuzzled*

      I’m so confused. If I were post-call after staying up to 11am, you’d be paying my OT for my morning (since that extends beyond the end of my call shift), and I should be getting post-call time off without digging into my PTO (as in it should be covered by my salary, not unpaid). If they’re shortstaffed during my post-call day, then they may offer me the option of staying and working that day for additional OT. Different jobs may differ in the details, but many contracts include terms that if you’re working past X time while taking call, then you get Y benefits post-call. No one works for free.

      1. Helewise*

        This is what I was thinking. It may have been OT, but shouldn’t have been PTO. Big yikes.

      2. Cmdrshprd*

        “If I were post-call after staying up to 11am, you’d be paying my OT for my morning (since that extends beyond the end of my call shift), and I should be getting post-call time off without digging into my PTO (as in it should be covered by my salary, not unpaid).”

        I think this is very job/company specific.

        It seems like people in the post are hourly workers. I could see that 7pm to 9am is OT for the on call/emergency call, but at 9am it turns into regularly scheduled time in the office, so you wouldn’t get OT for that day.

    8. Person from the Resume*

      They were on call the day before and got called out at 7pm. They did not complete the emergency until 11 am.

      (then today) Their supervisor told them they could go home if they wanted. Understandably, they did. They were given a choice. I have no problem paying them overtime for the time they worked. I do not believe that I owe them vacation for leaving and going home. Their supervisor did not approve the overtime.

      LW wanted them to work the whole day today and take overtime for the on-call job last night?

      They went home early today (to make up for last night’s extra work), but also put in vacation??? I’m confused here. If this is just taking off early instead of taking OT pay then they shouldn’t be charged any vacation.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        Thing is, it’s not up to the boss or the employee to choose if they’re over OT or not. It’s what the law says. The supervisor not approving the OT doesn’t change whether it’s owed or not.
        I *think* where the OP is saying “vacation” they might actually mean “comp time”, but again, whether the employee can have comp time vs OT is dependent on local laws and will vary depending on where they are.
        So basically:
        OP is very very very very very in the wrong for how they behaved.
        AND
        Nothing in the paragraph in question actually matters because none of the OP’s opinions about it, nor the supervisor’s opinions matter. What matters there is local laws, and if you’re perturbed about how OT works where you have a business, your beef is DEFINITELY NOT with the employees.

    9. I Have RBF*

      If a person has just worked 16 hours on a problem, they should not have to take PTO to leave and go home. They’ve already worked their 8 for the day as OT from the night before.

      1. Green great dragon*

        Oh, maybe by taking vacation that meant all the 16 hours became overtime rather than counting it as 8h normal shift=flat rate and 8h OT? So LW is out of pocket because OT is at a higher rate? But that’s something for a calm discussion afterwards, and LW should have a policy and implement the policy.

    10. KitKat*

      In addition to everything else going on in the letter, this is a situation where the OP could benefit from creating a clear written policy. How time is handled if workers have long overnight on-call shift, what options they have regarding PTO vs. unpaid time, etc. This doesn’t need to be a charged emotional topic (“they disobeyed me!”) when it’s more likely they did something that seemed sensible in the moment where there wasn’t a clear policy one way or another.

    11. GrumpyPenguin*

      I read the letter several times and still don’t understand the vacation/ overtime paradoxon. Does the business even have a consistent policy on that and if so, how did OP communicate these rules to the employees?

      Besides, the fact OP talks about “not owing his emploees something”: The relationship between employer and employee contains so much more than just exchanging labour for money. You owe your employees respect, safety, clear communication and expectations… And OP doesn’t seem offer anything of that, so why should anyone feel loyalty for the business?

    12. Meep*

      A lot of bad bosses (my own former boss, included) think PTO not as “Paid Time Off” but as “Personal Time Off” and there is this secondary connotation that it is a privilege and a gift, not part of your compensation package.

      If I had to make an educated guess, OP also thinks it is OK to interrupt PTO by scheduling meetings on their employee’s behalf when they full well knows her employees are off that day by that same logic.

    13. Hamster Manager*

      He also then says they didn’t approve the OT? “I do not believe that I owe them vacation for leaving and going home. Their supervisor did not approve the overtime.”

      So were they not paid OT for working a full 8 hours OVERNIGHT? I honestly do think OP should close the business, they are not even close to suited to running one right now. This attitude about hours and pay is just as big of a red flag to me as the verbal abuse and threatening behavior (that OP doesn’t even feel bad about, because he ‘didn’t say anything discriminatory’).

  14. JewishAndVibing*

    “I did not say anything discriminatory.”

    “I yelled and used the “f” word. We all use it every day.”

    Hmmm

    2. Ren no stimpy*

      I read that as the four letter f word (inappropriate but not discriminatory) and not… another f word which would be discriminatory.

      1. ScruffyInternHerder*

        That was my take as well.

        F-bombs and other profanity are used like punctuation marks in some industries. I’m in one of them. There’s nuance. An F-bomb as a comma or about something, and not at 95dB? That’s fine. “At” someone? Nope. Honestly the “At someone” seems to be the tipping point. I can call a piece of software something colorful, I can use it as a descriptor for how my morning is going, but I can NOT under any circumstances drop an “F*** you” or use it as a descriptor about a person.

        Even in my industry, where colorful language flies like mosquitos in a swamp, @ someone would not fly, and nearly guaranteed that screamed in anger would not fly, either.

        1. I Have RBF*

          This.

          I’ve worked in a couple industries where F bombs flowed like rain. But they were never “at” people, they were about the situation or the equipment.

          1. londonedit*

            Yep. We swear fairly frequently on my team, but never AT anyone. That’s the important distinction. We have no issue with saying ‘Oh FFS, the bloody printer’s broken again’ or ‘Well these cover designs are absolute shit, no idea what we’re going to tell the author’ or whatever. But we do not and would not ever swear AT someone. And it’s very much dependent on context – yes we swear in everyday conversation (we’re British, it’s fairly normal) but we wouldn’t swear in meetings with authors or with department heads etc.

            The OP absolutely should not have shouted and sworn at their employees. The whole situation sounds totally unacceptable to me. ‘I reminded them who they work for’??? I’d have stood up and left at that point, let alone once the OP started slamming doors and breaking things. You do not ‘remind me who I work for’. I am a professional adult and deserve to be treated as such – and so do the OP’s employees. If I was them, and I could afford to quit on the spot, that’s what I’d do. I wouldn’t be coming back to work in an environment like that.

        2. Anonylama*

          Exactly.

          “I’m f-ing ready for the weekend”
          “Where’s the f-ing report I just put down on my desk”
          “Oh, for f sake what is this meeting now?”

          Are all 100% fine in my industry. Anything directed at a person though…. oh f no. (couldn’t resist)

        3. Kyrielle*

          Yup. “Oh F” is one thing, “F you” is another. ‘Bout the only way to apply it to a person that doesn’t come off horribly is “Oh, F me….” But that should be a groan, not a yell.

          1. ScruffyInternHerder*

            Nah, that can be yelled at volume once in a blue moon, upon the correct situation.

          2. Azure Jane Lunatic*

            Or, *perhaps*, if all present are of one mind on the situation, a “F that F-ing glass bowl [in specific government office] for [making things incredibly more difficult]”, provided said glass bowl official is not actually present. Where in most cases the thing actually being cussed out is the policy in question, the person is usually just standing in for it, unless that person has taken personal and smug responsibility for the situation. In which case it’s both the policy and the person.

            But the instant you introduce someone who supports that government official to the situation, it comes off horribly again.

        3. Hlao-roo*

          I think the discriminatory f-word Ren no stimpy is thinking of is 3 letters, commonly recognized as a slur in the US.

            1. Flor*

              But in those countries it would still be recognised as a slur if directed AT a person, particularly a gay man, because it’s pretty obvious when you’re talking about a cigarette versus insulting a person.

            2. kalli*

              We can generally tell a bundle of sticks from a person.

              It’s still irrelevant because generally not said at volume.

    4. MsM*

      “I understand work boundaries! I just use them to ride the line as closely as I can to avoid getting in any real trouble!”

    5. Kilgore Trout*

      I interpreted this and this person believing they should get a pat on the back for not using slurs.

      1. Observer*

        So did I. Thar raised my eyebrows. Because that alone is a really bad sign. But then I read the rest, and this flew out of my head.

        But, yeah. LW, you don’t get brownie points for acting like an all around out of control jerk rather than a discriminatory out of control jerk.

        1. SheLooksFamiliar*

          Yes, indeed. ‘At least I didn’t say (outrageously biased and insulting thing), so I should get a pass for my restraint. Because anything goes when it comes to getting work done.’

      2. Cat Tree*

        Yeah, it makes me think that LW wanted to use some discriminatory slurs, showed a modicum of restraint to not do it, and now wants credit for it.

      3. A large cage of birds*

        lol, right? “I mean I yelled at people and broke things, but I managed not to use any slurs in the process, so how bad could it be?”

        The bar is on the floor.

      4. fhqwhgads*

        I don’t think they think they should get a pat on the back. I think in their mind “only” yelling and cursing-where-cursing-happens often = fine. Basically they’re communicating that they do understand discrimination is bad. And yelling discrimination is worse. The part they don’t get is that the yelling at all is bad.

      5. Dark Macadamia*

        Yep this is like an abuser saying “but I would never HIT someone” to downplay other forms of abuse they’ve already done. People who actually would never hit someone don’t have to say that because they don’t consider it to be a valid possibility. I’ve never congratulated myself for refraining from using slurs in anger because I DON’T USE SLURS full stop.

      6. Katherine*

        This plus maybe the people getting yelled were the right targets for discriminatory language (not white, female, whatever) so he thinks it was an act of restraint not to use the slurs that were there for the taking.

    6. Flor*

      The F-word, assuming it’s the usual F-word, isn’t a *discriminatory* word, given that it’s a crude word for sex and not a slur. And I do agree with the OP that there’s an important distinction between crude profanity and slurs. But how big that distinction is depends a lot on context. Is it a case of, “Nobody gives a f–k what I say round here”, or was it directed *at* employees, like, “You are a f–king omnishambles”? The former I’d argue is unprofessional but not morally any worse than shouting “Nobody cares what I say round here” while slamming doors (as in, the shouting and slamming are the real problem), but the latter is using it to emphasise a personal attack.

      And, of course, the fact that the OP felt the need to make this distinction at all is somewhat troubling, as though the fact that they weren’t shouting slurs at their employees means it’s okay that they shouted and swore at them. Just because one is *worse* doesn’t mean the other isn’t still *really bad* (I know they said they’re aware they messed up, but I still get a strong tone of justifying their behaviour in this letter).

      1. Humble Schoolmarm*

        I don’t think throwing an f-bomb modifier in the middle of a sentence is morally worse, but combined with the rest, I would probably take it as another sign that OP is letting their limbic system drive the bus and I should probably get out of there instead of try to reason with them (which is exactly what happened, sounds like).

    7. AnnoyedInWonderland*

      Yeah, this is some BS. My workplace is a bunch of potty-mouths too, but there’s a BIG difference between casual chatter and using language in an abusive way.

      1. AnnoyedInWonderland*

        Ooh. I commented before I saw the other comments and now I see there’s a possibility I was thinking of the wrong f-word…we toss around the four-letter f-bomb pretty frequently, but never the f-word that’s a slur. That’s not okay.

      2. Lea*

        Yes saying ‘my fing cat did x ‘ is much different from yelling f u at an employee or something

        There are f bombs and f bomb s

    9. GrumpyPenguin*

      There are workplaces like that where general cursing is normal. But there are still lines you shouldn’t cross. Cursing AT someone will always feel insulting, no matter how you word it.

      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        I used to work in a job that involved interacting with a bunch of current or former correctional officers, though not in a prison. F-bombs definitely happened on the regular. But there was never any yelling or swearing at someone.

    11. sparkle emoji*

      Honestly this feels like bargaining, a la “I’m not a X if I can stop after Y. I don’t have a problem.” Not trying to compare to addiction or anything similar, but this rationalizing about why the very obviously problematic behavior isn’t /really/ a problem should be concerning to LW.

      1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        100% bargaining. OP eff worded his staff and subsequently himself. Now he’s doing damage control playing games with words, trying to downplay broken doors and screaming.

  15. mango chiffon*

    I’m having trouble understanding what happened with the overtime workers. They worked overtime the day before and wanted to take time off to compensate for their overtime, which was not part of policy? Someone please help me understand.

    And then you thought the appropriate reaction was to yell and scream at one of them instead of explaining what the policy is?

    1. Dawn*

      If I’m reading it right, he expected them to just take the day unpaid, in spite of the fact they’d just gone above and beyond for the business.

    2. Tio*

      The best I can make of this:

      They were supposed to have a regular 9-5 shift after the emergency ended around 11am, but used vacation to go home AS THEY WERE OFFERED and he’s mad that he has to pay them overtime because it’s practically a 24hr shift.

      1. Angela*

        Vacation time is generally separate and totally different from regular labor. He would not have been expected to pay double time for that reason.

        IF they worked 9-5 7p-11a that all goes on the previous day so them taking vacation time from 11a-5p would be on the Next day which would not be double time for both reasons (vacation/next day’s shift).
        *if* they are in California
        9a-5p regular work hours
        7p-3a OT
        3a-11a DT
        11a-5p vacation day regular
        (and that’s if they don’t clock out for meals!)

        so I Still don’t understand what this manager is mad about?

        Maybe that the workers worked all night and still “didn’t finish the emergency”??

        but we don’t know their state and we don’t know the wage laws there.

        1. Azure Jane Lunatic*

          I can think of a reason, but it’s still not a reason to get shouting and swearing mad.

          If vacation time is typically planned beforehand, and therefore budgeted beforehand, multiple people taking unbudgeted vacation on top of a longer than usual shift that may include overtime is adding a hefty chunk to payroll on zero notice. OP would have likely budgeted for a certain amount of emergency overage, based on this clearly being an industry where 16 hour emergency shifts happen, but adding vacation for multiple people might have exceeded that.

          In the usual course of things, someone taking vacation would be getting that vacation in place of working, not on top of working.

    3. Double A*

      Maybe the reason the LWs employees aren’t doing what he expects is that he’s an unclear communicator.

    4. NaoNao*

      It sounds like the OP thinks they are “double dipping” basically–they did indeed work OT (or whatever arrangement they have) by working 7PM to 11 AM, but rather than taking informal “comp time” and just taking the time without pay, they used PTO to get sort of…double paid, if that makes sense.

  16. Lacey*

    This is WILD behavior.

    I’ve got almost 20 yrs office experience under my belt. I’ve been yelled at once.
    And I know that someone who heard it reported it to the CEO who told that person it was unacceptable and made them apologize. I firmly believe that if the CEO had actually been there to hear it that person would have lost their job.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Same. My supervisor snapped at me once, in a instance of very pointed frustration when I asked her some badly-timed questions (that was on me; I definitely failed to read the room), and then came right back and apologized. But it was not yelling, it was under pressure, I absolutely contributed, it was out of character, and she apologized immediately. Because we are adults here.

    2. Observer*

      I’ve been yelled at once.
      And I know that someone who heard it reported it to the CEO who told that person it was unacceptable and made them apologize.

      I recently got yelled at, and it was definitely a factor in the yeller losing their job.

    3. Lea*

      Managers who act like this get a reputation…I know it’s more common in some industries than others but if someone pulled this at work and everybody was walking out I would too

    4. SheLooksFamiliar*

      I sometimes think people have watched too many re-runs of 60s and 70s TV shows. Bosses weren’t just bad bosses – Michael Scott! – they regularly yelled at and flew off the handle with their beleaguered employees. Mr. Mooney, Mr. Slate, Mr. Drysdale, Mr. Spacely, Mr. Angolino…heck, even alleged nice-guy Ricky Ricardo yelled a lot.

      1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        I just found a cartoon film version of Blondie and Dagwood from 1987.
        Dagwood was late to work.
        Mr Dithers screamed at him and threw him out the door. Blondie told Mrs Dithers who beat the crap out of her husband with an umbrella. Dagwood got his job back.
        This is not a lesson in management, people.

    5. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Right, this is not normal behavior. I’ve been snapped at or spoken to harshly but I don’t think I’ve ever been *yelled* at the way this suggests.

    6. Also*

      I’ve got almost 20 yrs office experience under my belt. I’ve been yelled at once.

      I wish I’d had your good luck! I’m glad your employer dealt with the matter so swiftly and effectively, too.

  18. Former Lab Rat*

    Your employees walked out and left. After you yelled. Let me repeat with different wording – they left after you acted in a totally inappropriate way. They LEFT. Without jobs. You must be a complete jerk for multiple people to leave a job abruptly with nothing lined up. I don’t know what your business is, or how big the town is but believe me word is going to get around. People are going to be very leery of working for you. You may end up closing your business when you can’t find staff.

    You need anger management classes PRONTO!!!

      1. sparkle emoji*

        In the context of the full sentence this is pulled from, I read it as saying someone has to be acting like a complete jerk in order to provoke a group of people to leave knowing it could cost them their jobs. It may be a little harsh, but I think it’s a reasonable to point out how bad it has to get for several people to forfeit their jobs. I hope the LW can consider this and understand how serious of a problem this is.

    2. Liane*

      People are also going to be wary of hiring your business once word gets around. They won’t want to risk you losing your temper and abusing them, their employees, or even their family members (if your company does residential work).

    3. Bilateralrope*

      That’s the part the Letter Writer really needs to understand. Walking out in the middle of the workday and expecting to come back the next day is far less common than employees walking out when they don’t plan to come back. To the point where I saw “walked out” in the title and assumed they were quitting.

      The only ways any of them are ever coming back is if the LW does something dodgy with their paycheques or otherwise harrasses them. Naturally my advice to the LW is to not do any of that.

      1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        “but I didn’t even yell at some of the people who left! And I could have! X didn’t listen, either!”
        Please OP, for the love of all that is sane in the world, stop. digging.

  19. chocolate lover*

    They don’t need your permission to walk out, and it’s no wonder that they did. That’s unacceptable behavior and as Alison said, they are not your indentured servants.

    Years ago I left a role because I had finally had enough of a boss who was regularly screaming at people, though she wasn’t swearing. I came in to the office one morning and she was screaming and saying things that were a whole new level. That was the day I decided to leave and moved to a new role a few months later.

    1. WellRed*

      I know! That’s not how walking out works. You don’t ask for permission FFS. I’m thinking you need anger management more than management tools (though you need that too.) please reflect on all this.

    2. Elbe*

      The “permission” thing is just weird. It really indicated just how far off-base the LW is here.

      Employees do not need their manager’s permission to quit. Employing someone does not give you this much control over another human being’s life. They are still independent people with rights.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        It seems LW doesn’t think they quit, they just… left early for the day because their boss completely flipped out and they were concerned for their safety. So they were pointing out that leaving early without getting permission might mean they lose their jobs.

        I suspect LW is about to discover why “walked out” is often used as a synonym for “quit without notice”, because I think a lot of their employees–even the ones he wasn’t specifically targeting for abuse this time–are only coming back to clear out their desks and pick up a final paycheck.

        LW, your business is not going well. You aren’t successfully managing or respecting the people you rely on for the success of your business and this incident could really hurt your reputation, at least with job-seekers. Really do consider closing down or selling the business, because if you continue in this manner you will drive away all the employees with other options.

        1. Worldwalker*

          And if all you have left are employees who have no other options, your business is going to fail anyway.

        2. Elbe*

          I also get the impression that the LW doesn’t realize that these employees have quit, but I can’t think of any logical reason why they would think that.

          They say, “I followed them outside and told them if they leave without permission, don’t come back tomorrow. They still left.” That IS quitting. Unless there is other details that haven’t been included, I think this indicates how wildly the LW is misreading the whole situation.

      2. Reading Rainbow*

        The permission bit is what’s really getting me. As someone who’s worked a lot of service and other small business jobs, there’s a kind of mindset you don’t see as much in other kinds of workplaces that I think is part of why so many people in the comments are really baffled. There’s a certain amount of… Ownership, I think I would call it, that they expect to have over their employees. So yeah, you’ll see this extreme confusion about how can you LEAVE without PERMISSION? I didn’t even yell at you specifically, so you shouldn’t even be allowed to be mad about it!

        If you follow the thread, it ties together with the original anger being about not following instructions.

  20. Sloanicota*

    “I am considering closing the business.” – yes, go with this instinct. You should probably not be managing people. Perhaps you can be an individual contributor or if you become an employee that help you understand why what you did was wrong. You should not supervise anyone until you get a hold of yourself.

    1. Optimus*

      absolutely 100%. if this person’s business success hinges on a staff of people willing to be treated like dirt, well, that doesn’t sound like a sustainable business.

      I absolutely hate managers like this, who think they should be able to crap on employees because they are employees. WRONG. OP, you don’t get it, and you brought this on yourself.

    3. Cat Tree*

      Yeah, it seems like LW is not in the right job. Instead of doing something as rash as closing it down, maybe try to sell the business?

    4. Boof*

      Yes, sometimes this is the brave/best thing and not the worst thing – OP trying to keep managing the way you have been would be the worst thing. Take a serious step back, either make huge changes (ideally with some kind of independent guide to keep you on track) or yes, stop managing people. Admitting something isn’t for you is better than trying to bulldozer forward doing something that is completely wrong! (kind of like imagine those people trying to park somewhere they shouldn’t, and eventually driving through a building – just stop driving or at least stop trying to park there rather than ignoring all the signs that something is terribly wrong!)

    5. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Agreed! I was thinking back to when I was a music teacher and had to yell at my kids not in anger or frustration but simply to get them to be quiet and listen to what I had to say. It was absolutely ineffective, plus I realized that I realllllly hate yelling and that sometimes when you’re a teacher you just have to yell. So, consequently, I am no longer a teacher and I haven’t yelled at work in [counts on fingers] a couple of decades.

    6. ecnaseener*

      Agreed. Management training and anger management counseling both sound like good ideas, but they’re not going to fix the issues overnight. In the meantime, LW’s behavior here was so far over the line that I doubt even their best behavior is going to be halfway decent.

      If you can keep the business afloat without employees or by having someone else manage them, then do that for a couple of years, but otherwise yeah it’s time to accept that this business model isn’t for you. You tried it and it turned you into someone you don’t like. I really do think you’re looking at a couple of years, minimum, to unlearn these habits.

    7. Ruby*

      A lot of people like this start their own businesses because (functional) employers don’t tolerate this behavior on the job.

    8. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      Like OP’s reasons for acting out are not the get out of jail free card he seems to think it is, this threat of closing the business is not the well, threat OP thinks it is.
      They quit.
      They don’t think you should have a business. If you do have a business, they want no part of it.
      If you close it, they will think, good. And they may even wish you well in your next endeavor as long as it is not managing people. Like go do work you love and be happy. Don’t try to lead people.

  21. DutchBlitz*

    The employees worked 16 hours overnight to solve an emergency and were berated for taking a half day of PTO to rest after that?

    I appreciate that OP understands they messed up…but I think some serious self-reflection (and possibly anger management courses/therapy) is required if they want to continue owning a business and managing people.

    1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      But do they *really* understand? It seems as though the LW might understand they messed up in the sense that there have been negative outcomes to them. But I don’t get the sense that they really understand that their behaviour was totally unacceptable. They still think the staff shouldn’t have left without permission.

      1. ClaireW*

        Yeah I’m getting big “OK I shouldn’t have yelled BUT…” vibes from OP, like their behavior was a little tiny mistake that’s totally understandable under the circumstances rather than something wholly inappropriate and indefensible.

        1. Dek*

          Yeah, there’s a lot of that vibe. Like “some of the people who walked out weren’t even the ones I yelled at.”

          Like…yeah, buddy. Just being in the splash zone is bad enough.

    2. Elbe*

      I don’t think that they really understand the severity of this.

      They think that what they did was merely an “oops” that was justified by external circumstances. They fail to see that this is an incredibly abusive way of acting that 100% justifies these employees quitting with no notice.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        I don’t think they realize their employees quit. I think they imagine the employees are all coming back tomorrow to work, rather than to pick up their final paychecks.

      2. just some guy*

        It’s not only the “abusive” aspect here, as important as that is. Even if OP hadn’t yelled and slammed doors, even if they’d just sent a politely-worded email saying “unfortunately I’m unable to approve PTO here”.

        It’s also the failure to see how this looks from the employees’ perspective. If people are pulling an all-nighter to help the company in an emergency – even if that’s a designated part of their responsibilities – you make damn sure they feel appreciated for it. If there are irregularities with the way the pay/leave situation has been handled, maybe those need to be straightened up, but you do that in a way that ensures that “thanks for saving our bacon!” is the main part of the message.

        When people feel like they’ve done you a favour, ingratitude is a very powerful disincentive for them to ever do that again.

        1. Never Knew I was a Dancer*

          This 1000%. I wish it were higher up in the comments for more people to see it!

    3. blood orange*

      Yeah, I also came here to say this. To get this out of control angry over something really routine when it comes to running a business and managing people makes it more unreasonable.

      At first I expected something more impactful, like losing a large sum of money (wouldn’t make the reaction ok, but I’d be more likely to empathize), but the more I read I had a sense it would be, honestly, trivial. And yes, this is trivial regardless of the effect on the business’ bottom line. Staff have PTO for it to be used, and they just spent an honestly grueling amount of time handling an emergency for the business. On top of that, it’s the supervisor’s fault for not being clear on what they expected them to do with that time they went home early! They had the option to be clear up front and say they should not use PTO if they went home, chose not to, and the employees presumably interpreted that with the information they were given.

      1. aebhel*

        Yeah, exactly. It’s not that this behavior would be acceptable in any case, but this is such a HUGE overreaction to something really trivial that it makes me almost certain the LW has inflicted a ton of abusive behavior on their employees, and this was simply the final straw. Absolutely no reasonable person would put up with being treated this way if they had any other options, and frankly in many cases even if they didn’t. The fact that a number of employees all left at once makes me think that they’ve probably discussed this before.

        LW should not be managing people, full stop.

    4. just some guy*

      Gotta say, if one of my staff had pulled a 16-hour overnighter for an emergency, I’m not sure I would be *letting* them come in the next day even if they offered. Aside from considerations of gratitude etc., I’d discourage people from working while badly sleep-deprived for the same reasons I’d discourage them from working while drunk.

  22. Ellis Bell*

    OP it sounds like you have terrific employees who know how to maintain good behaviour in the face of toxic behaviour. That they walked out, instead of copying or living up to your toxic example is really good news. If it seems like too much work to do anger management, you might consider another line of work entirely.

  23. Heidi*

    Am I understanding this right? The 2 employees worked 16 hours on an emergency call, then did not get overtime pay for it and also were not allowed to use vacation time so that they could get paid for the next day? So they did all the overtime for no pay? And then the only way they could have gotten paid for the next day was to stay the whole day after staying up the whole night?

    1. Alice*

      That’s how it worked at the vet clinics I worked at. We got emergency fees for overnight calls (depending on the whim of the owner whether he decided to try not to pay us) and then had to work the full next day even if we didn’t sleep at all the night before. Lots of verbal abuse and tantrums if we even left 30 minutes early. Some weeks I made under $20/hr as a veterinarian and clients still complained about the bills.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Former veterinary assistant here: We never got time off the next day no matter how late we worked the night before; they didn’t hire enough staff to offer that kind of flexibility. Classic small business. We got overtime if we had to stay, although we’re near a major metropolitan area so we usually sent those cases to the animal ER (because my bosses absolutely did not want to pay OT). And the business manager b*tched about paying me the OT for that night.

        I once stayed until 11:00 during a tornado warning (warning; it touched down in a neighboring town), with the power flickering on and off, helping with an emergency surgery and then came back to open at 6:00 the next morning. Minus a 45-minute commute each way.

  24. Alice*

    OP sounds like the owners of the last two vet clinics I worked at. The first one would get similarly violent and actually damaged my cell phone that I had on the counter for looking up drug doses. The second would just verbally abuse us and then angrily vacuum +/- assigning us extra on call or Saturday shifts as punishment for saying we were overworked and exhausted. I have PTSD from those environments.
    Get some anger management therapy and management training before you tank your entire business.

  25. ZSD*

    I’m sure the yelling and abuse will be thoroughly addressed in the comments, so I’m going to focus on two pieces of minutiae:
    1) What was the “emergency” that wasn’t addressed until the next morning? Was it an actual emergency, like the office floor was flooding, or you’re in health care and someone didn’t receive treatment? Or was it a non-emergency emergency, like that shelves hadn’t been restocked or something?
    2) I don’t understand the interaction between overtime and vacation time here. It sounds to me like the on-call employees were working overtime, i.e., they had already worked at least 40 hours for the week. But when they opted not to work more overtime, they put in for vacation time? You can’t do that, can you? If I’m understanding correctly, the LW is in the right that they don’t owe these employees vacation time. (The LW obviously is handling the situation terribly. I’m just saying that the employees might be in the wrong for requesting vacation time.)

    1. Blue Spoon*

      I think what happened was they worked overtime late into the night, then had a regularly scheduled shift shortly after that they chose to use vacation time to not go to so they could get some rest.

    2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      For your first question, I’m guessing that part of the business involves responding to client emergencies. This is presumably why they have staff on call at night. If it’s an HVAC company (an example someone provided upthread), it makes sense that they’d have people on call to respond if a client’s HVAC shut down, e.g., a food distribution company that relies on keeping their products refrigerated.

    3. Liane*

      1) The emergency was addressed overnight, from 7pm the night before (probably after a full day of work) to 11am the next day. The LW doesn’t word that detail clearly.
      A lot of commenters think the business is HVAC, but I was thinking on-call IT, maybe field service. (Because my husband is a retired tech.)

    4. jtr*

      I still don’t completely understand the vacation vs OT, TBH.

      However, it’s not that it wasn’t handled until 11 am. It was that employees were working on the problem from 7 pm until 11 am – so they were working on a customer problem for 16 hours, probably after having already worked an 8 hour shift the day before.

      I do have some sympathy for a business owner being stressed out, perhaps more than an employee manager, since not only financial but personal self-worth is often tied up in a business. But, OP needs to figure out a way to handle the stress without having a temper tantrum.

    5. ecnaseener*

      You can’t do that, can you?

      I mean, why not? They were (with permission) skipping a scheduled shift, that’s what PTO is for. If LW doesn’t grant PTO in those circumstances, that’s their choice but there’s nothing wrong or dishonest about requesting it.

  26. KT*

    “I yelled and cussed, but I did not say anything discriminatory.”

    That doesn’t make any of this okay. The fact you think yelling and cussing at people as long as you don’t say anything blatantly offensive is a problem. I would encourage you to look at this not just as a business owner/manager but in all aspects of your life. Is this also how you treat your friends/family? As someone who grew up walking on eggshells around others, I highly recommend you reevaluate your behavior in stressful situations beyond just work. If yelling and slamming doors is how you always handle stress, then I would highly recommend therapy or some kind of anger management. And if you genuinely don’t, then take a long look at why you think it’s okay to act this way at work but not elsewhere.

    1. Observer*

      would encourage you to look at this not just as a business owner/manager but in all aspects of your life. Is this also how you treat your friends/family?

      Agreed. It would surprise me if this was not already affecting the LW in other areas. But if they have been fortunate enough that it has not happened yet, it’s *EXTREMELY* unlikely that it won’t start to bleed into the rest of their life, unless they get some help.

  27. Adam*

    Yeah, OP, you are definitely the problem here. Your behavior is so out of bounds that I’m amazed you have any employees willing to work for you. I hope you take an opportunity to introspect and reconsider things.

  28. Dawn*

    “…. but I need them.”

    Well, that’s unfortunate for you, isn’t it? Because after your behaviour and attitude, I’m amazed that you even still have two of the five.

    Just throwing this out there, but maybe this is a sign to you that you shouldn’t actually be running a business.

    2. Grey*

      “…. but I need them.”

      OP made the mistake of believing it was mutual.

      Bosses who do not behave this way are unsurprisingly easy to find elsewhere.

      1. Dawn*

        I think OP’s mistake was actually in believing that their opinions don’t figure into it at all. “I need them, therefore they should do what I want because I am the important person here.”

        1. Ama*

          This is a mistake I have seen managers make over and over, from extreme situations like this one to changing an employee’s role significantly and then being surprised when that employee leaves. Employees are people – they have their own goals and needs from their employment and just as much right as any manager at a business to decide their current job no longer meets those goals and needs.

    3. Hydrates all the flasks*

      “but I need them.”

      Okay well then OP does need to maybe act like they remember that?
      I swear I’m not trying to pile on but employment goes both ways. Otherwise it would be indentured servitude or slavery. OP needs their employees so they should maybe treat them better, you know?

  29. Don't You Call Me Lady*

    “I am considering closing the business.”

    Sounds like it might be best for everyone

    1. TheBunny*

      I’m not sure this is a fair statement. I’d be more inclined were it an employee reaching out…but it’s the owner. He knows his business is struggling and needs to be redirected as to why this is the case.

      It might end up there but the business is also people’s jobs and I’m not sure this should be taken lightly.

      1. Don't You Call Me Lady*

        I mean if the owner can get his anger under control and do a 180 then yes. But he might need a whole new staff to do it. If i was working there I’m not so sure I’m in it for the long haul anyway – there have to be better places to work than this

        1. Worldwalker*

          I worked for a yeller long ago. For about two weeks. Of which I spent all but the first day job searching after work. (Long, long pre-phones … so long ago that it was a typewriter store)

      2. Ellis Bell*

        I’m not sure people are going to return to those jobs, and anger management is not a quick fix. It is not an advice column level of instant solve. If he can’t retain employees then he needs an entirely different type of job, possibly not by choice.

  30. AmyAnnMaria*

    Well, well, well. If someone isn’t dealing with the consequence of their own actions. OP, how could you possibly think you were in the right? I would have walked out too. This is not OK behavior and you should know that. If you don’t, then you should not be a manager or run a business. Would you talk to your friends and family like this? I will also add, to act like this over something so minor is indicative of a larger issue than just management. It is showing that you have a problem controlling your anger. To be honest, that is something worth looking into.

  31. BJMN*

    Sounds like you’ve progressed to the “find out” stage. Love this for you and anyone else in your shoes.

  32. SparklingBlue*

    This is not just someone who has no idea how to manage, this is a cry for help. Seconding getting counseling/anger management/therapy.

    1. Bast*

      Yes. I am 98% certain there is a “Something Else” going on and “Something Else” is really behind the outburst, no matter what LW recognizes right now. There are plenty of times things bleed over and we don’t realize it, and the “Something Else” needs to be addressed before anything gets better. It could be a mental health issue, a major personal or family crises, etc, but this seems more like a symptom of a bigger, overarching issue.

  33. goof*

    I don’t know how bad managers find out about Alison’s blog, but if LW was a dedicated reader of AMA, they would already know how unacceptable this behavior is.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      Abusers have a way of justifying their own behavior though. “Oh sure, I hit her, but I didn’t hit her in the face” or “If she hadn’t done what she did I never would have needed to hit her”. They are also very good at apologizing without actually meaning and manipulating to keep the abused person in their sphere of influence and control.

      Unfortunately, this sounds very much….like that.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        “I screamed and cussed at them, but I didn’t use any racial or gender slurs!”

    3. Myrin*

      I always think of OPs like this as the “I thought a blog called ‘Ask A Manager’ would automatically side with the manager” kind, which is something an actual OP said once. She probably googled “advice for bosses ” or something and found Alison through that.

      1. Kara*

        Or they were venting to someone about how unreasonable the leaving employees were and that someone said, dude, no one is going to be on your side. Send it to Ask A Manager and see.

        It’s giving me heavy I-never-make-mistakes guy vibes, in that sense that OP absolutely does not think he did anything wrong and thinks that “reasonable” people are going to side with him.

      2. Liane*

        Yes, Alison once had an LW who defended their terrible management in the comments and through Update#1, who said almost the exact same thing in the first update: “I thought that as Ask a Manager you would side with a manager.”

        Fortunately, that LW finally saw the light, and finally learned the lessons Alison & the commenters tried to teach them, as covered Update#2. (I will link the saga in a reply.)

        I hope this LW also learns better, so they become another AAM success.

  34. BikeWalkBarb*

    You shouldn’t manage other people until you learn how to do it. Imagine all of what you did to your employees happened to you instead and how you’d feel now. Would you be coming back to work? I think not.

    Super minor detail in the context of an out-of-control manager, but the vacation thing? If they wrote “vacation” on their time card, they were using some of their precious vacation time. You don’t feel you “owe them” vacation? You already “owe them” if they have paid vacation. If so and they burned a few hours to go home and sleep, they don’t get to take those hours some sunny day on a beach. It doesn’t cost you any extra money. In fact, using vacation instead of overtime *saves* you money since OT is at time and a half. They had just worked 16 hours straight! No matter what industry you’re in, they weren’t in any condition to keep working. Heck, they should have called it sick leave at that point.

    On that topic it does sound as if some procedures are missing about overtime approval and advance notice on using vacation time. A whole lot more than that is missing here, but your attitude about vacation as something you begrudge them using struck me, along with the inhumanity of being angry at people who just put in that amount of time. Yet one more indicator of an incredibly toxic workplace.

  35. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

    They’re not coming back, and the one who didn’t leave is hopefully job searching. If you can’t operate your business without flying off the handle and abusing people, you should, indeed, close the business.

    I hope you can do some deep self reflection and learning. This is no way to treat your employees. If the employees are insubordinate (I’m guessing this is what you mean by them “doing what they want, not what you told them”), you need to be able to handle that and address it like a calm and in control adult, not like an emotionally dysregulated toddler.

    2. Ready for the weekend*

      And with the employee who started, OP needs to do a complete 180 on their managerial behavior and that that person with the utmost respect.

  36. Chris*

    “Losing control like that is a sign that you don’t know how to manage your staff.”

    Loosing control like this is a sign that someone doesn’t know how to manage themselves.

  37. CommanderBanana*

    But guys! The LW didn’t say anything discriminatory, so it’s ok! /s

    LW, your lack of self-awareness is….well, it’s certainly something.

    I worked for a guy like you. He slammed his office door in another coworker’s face. Her hand was resting on the door jamb and he caught her hand in the door and fractured a bone in her hand. She was so beaten down by his abuse that she didn’t do anything about it, although she did quit a few months later.

    If it had happened to me, I would have sued that organization into the ground and filed assault charges.

    It took a few years, but eventually someone did sue them, they got kicked out of their parent organization, he and the ED got fired, and it was nasty enough that it made our industry’s trade publication and several of us got calls for comments about our experience there.

    You should not be managing anyone. You really ought to be in therapy for your anger issues. Your employees were right to walk out, and I hope they quit en masse. And, if you keep this up, you may see yourself in the paper one day.

  38. Tinker Tailor Solder Dye*

    OP, you need to listen to Alison, and you need to NOW if you want to save your business.

    First things first: take a good long look in the mirror and review your actions. Would you tolerate a boss doing what you did? Would you accept screaming, cussing, and breaking a door frame?

    If so, shutter your business. You will never retain employees if you continue on this path.

    If you wouldn’t, then it’s time to sit down and reach out to your employees with a heartfelt apology, pay for the days they lost if you are able, and invest in some serious anger management classes. If you aren’t willing to do this, then you will never again succeed.

  39. pamela voorhees*

    I just want to thank the letter writer for writing in and being open to change and advice. As always, Alison’s advice is so good. Sometimes we are the problem, and that’s hard to hear but important to know. Hopefully this will be the lowest point, and you can develop stronger skills from here — even if the skill is knowing you don’t want to/can’t be a manager/in charge of people any more (which is totally okay!)

    1. Myrin*

      I thought the same. This is a truly remarkable response from Alison and I really hope that the fact that she wrote in is a sign that OP can reflect on this and become better.

  40. Dawn*

    I have to say, it’s very kind of this year’s “worst boss” winner to actually write in himself and save his employees the trouble.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      This definitely has some self-aware wolves energy.

      Sadly, it’s less about “how do I change my behavior going forward and fix my relationship with these employees?” and more about “how do I get these people to come back to work under these awful conditions where I can just yell and berate them whenever I feel frustrated?”

      Adding my voice to the “just close the business” chorus.

      1. Dawn*

        Yes, very much of an “I need them, therefore they should do what I want because I am the important person here” vibe.

    4. Ellis Bell*

      Oh come on. If nothing else, they wrote in asking for advice. A true worst boss would never do that, even if LWs were not exempt.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        Counterpoint: Leap Year Boss, and the boss astonished that a new hire wouldn’t work without pay.

      2. Dawn*

        This isn’t written in good faith, though; they aren’t asking for advice. There’s no question here, just an accounting of what happened, followed by “I think they should not have walked out without permission.”

        This is wanting an Official Advice Person to sign off on their bad behaviour – something which comes up here every now and again, and never produces the results the writer is hoping for.

  41. Jennifer Strange*

    OP, please get yourself some help. This is not a healthy reaction. To be clear, I’m not saying I’ve never lost my temper or gotten angry about something; I absolutely have! But shouting is not okay. Shouting profanities is not okay (even if your office uses profanity, there is a different between shouting it at the copier and shouting it at a human being). Slamming the door is not okay (especially so hard it breaks!). Once you did any of those (but especially all of them together!) you lost the right to complain about them walking out.

    1. N C Kiddle*

      Yesterday I got so upset over an argument on social media that I threw a glass jar at the wall. My next move was to look up a helpline I could text, because I had just enough control to know this was a Very Bad Sign. And I was home alone so nobody else was threatened by it.

  42. Which Sister*

    Things weren’t great before they walked out. Screaming, yelling, breaking something, that was the last straw. Not the only straw.

    And the people who stayed? They didn’t stay because they wanted to… they either have no choice financially or don’t care enough to go through effort of walking out.

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      Or they delayed their exit until the end of their shift in the hopes of avoiding another bout of Wrath of the Boss. That’s what I would have done instead of walking out in the moment, also not to return afterwards if I had any way to avoid it without forfeiting living indoors.

    2. Carmen*

      I completely agree. Due to things like…bills…kids…pets… I cannot simply walk out without another job lined up. I guarantee I’d be at that desk and at home staying up overnight in order to find something-anything-else. I’d quit and drive rideshare before I ever accept verbal abuse like that.

  43. Irish Teacher.*

    I see a couple of issues here, as well as the yelling. The first is that you “reminded them of who they worked for.” I am sure they know that and saying that sounds like…well, like you are very invested in having them see you as an authority and as more important than them. That may not be how you meant it, but I think in most situations, I would hear, “remember who you work for” as well, a bit indicative of somebody likely to go on power trips. Not saying that you do go on power trips, just saying that gives that impression.

    Also, when they walked out, you didn’t apologise. You didn’t recognise that you had gone too far and owed them an apology. Instead, you continued to blame them and acted like they were out of line.

    Again, acting like they need your permission to assert boundaries when you are behaving badly is…sort of another flag for somebody very invested in being “the boss.” I know you are the boss, but their boundary here; we will not work for you while you are behaving like this and throwing tantrums, was completely reasonable and I think somebody who just lost their temper and overreacted would realise they were in the wrong.

    Your comment that “they still left”…well, at that point you gave them an extra reason why they should leave.

    And it sounds like you are still thinking in terms of who you have a problem with. You mention that two of those who left, you did not have a problem with, but the big problem here is your behaviour. They didn’t leave because they made mistakes and you were annoyed with them. They left because you were behaving poorly, as you admit and to be honest, it sounds like your behaviour was quite dangerous and it was not safe to be around you. I think you need to reframe this as being about “having them back” and more about “coaxing them back,” which really means you need to be willing to change and work on yourself.

    I think any issues you had with them have some of…well, become insignificant compared to what you did wrong. You are the person who behaved most unprofessionally here and you need to apologise to them and make it clear that this will not happen again. Getting some help with anger management also sounds like a good idea.

    And yeah, if you “lose control (of yourself), you lose control (of the situation and of others).” The fact that you continued to give ultimatums and yell at people meant they were more justified in leaving, not less.

    1. Dawn*

      The thing about saying to someone, “remember who you work for,” is that they’re reminded that they “work for” you, and aren’t “owned by” you, and can, in fact, stop working for you.

      1. MsM*

        Especially when the obvious followup question to an incident like this is, “Is this the kind of person I want to be working for?”

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Right. “You reminded them who they work for”

      But also “I would have approved overtime”

      And also “Their supervisor did not approve overtime”

      What is going on between OP and the intermediate management staff?

    3. MigraineMonth*

      As Alison mentioned in her response, people who are comfortable using their power and authority don’t act like this. If an employee keeps making mistakes, they don’t need to scream or threaten to fire them, because they *have the actual power to fire them* if the employee doesn’t shape up. If an employee is insubordinate, a confident boss doesn’t need to remind them who is the boss because–again–they *have the actual power to fire them* if the employee continues.

      What is your method for correcting your employees’ mistakes and, if necessary, terminating their employment? Is it just you getting fed up until you boil over, but no one ever actually gets fired?

  44. Alice Simpson*

    This is so absurdly over the top it almost reads like rage bait; however, assuming it’s true:

    You’re the problem OP. You were abusive, vulgar and obnoxious and now have a shocked Pikachu face that adults chose not to put up with it.

    If you really want these people back, you need to apologize to all of them – and all who were witness to your unhinged behaviour and get yourself some anger management training.

    Or close the business and go work for someone else who can yell at you this way.

    Good grief, what a mess.

    1. goof*

      It’s so over the top it’s on the verge of being unbelievable, but there are business owners out there who yell, slam doors, and think that they’re doing you a favor by hiring you. (Even here, when the LW here even admitted to “needing” their staff.)

      It’s important to let readers and managers know what management failure looks like. This is unacceptable, and had I read AAM when I was in my early 20s, I would have acted differently in the face of a Very Mad Manager I once had.

      1. Worldwalker*

        I worked for one decades ago, for about two weeks. After the first day, I understood why he hired me. And why no one stayed very long.

    2. GrumpyPenguin*

      People like this are real, I used to work for one. I agree OP has to apologize, but I don’t think the employees are willing to come back.

  45. Exhausted Trope*

    Yes, good managers don’t yell. (They also don’t trap you in a bathroom stall and force you to listen to them yelling at a coworker. Yes, there’s a story here.)
    I’ve had several managers like this back in the day and wish I had walked out on them.

    1. Jaydee*

      You had a boss who yelled at someone in the bathroom? While you were in there using the bathroom (or hiding from the boss, which would be understandable if my first guess is accurate)? On the one hand I’m really curious to know more. But on the other hand, a boss who yells at an employee in the bathroom is bad enough, and doing it while someone else is in there is even worse, so I don’t really *need* to know more.

  46. Union Rep*

    To stay “kind and constructive,” I’ll just point out that if you do fire them all for collectively walking out (or if you don’t fire them but find some other way to take it out on them), you’re opening yourself to serious legal liability. Your best bet is to understand that the question is whether they are willing to keep working for you, and start acting like it.

  47. kanada*

    You slammed a door so hard a piece of wood flew off and almost hit one of your employees.

    You SLAMMED A DOOR SO HARD A PIECE OF WOOD FLEW OFF AND ALMOST HIT ONE OF YOUR EMPLOYEES.

    Anyone who is still in this office is looking for a way out, or has no other options.

    1. Sloanicota*

      Yes, perhaps OP can try to take that as the last straw. OP, what if the fragment had hit and seriously injured your employee? You could even find yourself facing legal action. How would it feel to try and defend yourself in court on this charge, with everyone in your life hearing about how you behaved? Your mother (or any relative you are fond of and want to think well of you) reading this account? I don’t say this to hurt you but as a visualizing method where you decide you need to make a change so these things never happen.

      1. Worldwalker*

        Balsa, due to its light weight and flexibility, would have held up better. Maybe water oak?

    3. MsCary*

      Gotta point out OP says “supposedly” almost hit someone. That’s just adding an extra layer of denial and avoidance of accountability right there.

  48. Jeanine*

    This sounds so much like the instance at a donut shop where I live. A couple years ago we were having a massive heat wave in June, like 115 degrees. This donut shop had no a/c and employees walked out so they wouldn’t like, you know, DIE. And the owner fired them for trying to save their own lives. Yeah I would have walked out on you too, people are human not robots.

  49. Nonsense*

    Do close the business.

    You clearly have absolutely no idea how to manage, how PTO works, how overtime works, or how to treat people with basic respect. You should never have any responsibility over another person until and unless you absorb just how workplace practices you violated and have completed anger management courses.

  50. Name (Required)*

    I had a boss at a small company years ago whose screaming, accusatory temper was the reason I spent every single night of what I decided was my last onsite event in my hotel room angrily drinking with one hand and furiously applying to jobs with the other. This is giving me such unwelcome flashbacks to that emotional nadir.

    The owner rarely knows what’s going on with their own company. Did you ask why your team defied your directions? Is there a culture of open communication in your business? That might be a good place to start to make sure you’re all on the same page to avoid these kinds of breakdowns, both emotional and communication, and facilitate constructive conversation.

    Ruling with an iron fist and your ego is the fastest way to ensure your team is leaving a bad manager, not a job.

    1. Polly Hedron*

      I want to know more about your transition. How long did it take to get your next job? Did you get a response from any of the jobs to which you had applied from the hotel?

  51. Ready for the weekend*

    There’s a line between being firm and being nasty. I feel you crossed over to the latter and there’s a point for many of us where we choose to leave a work situation than stay and silently suffer in it. I had a boss like this where a new hire left within a week because of the boss’ cruel reaction to her asking job-related questions (which she had every right too).

  52. GrumpyPenguin*

    At OldJob I had a manager like that. Not only did he yell and curse at me, but also at other employees, clients and his family. I stayed far longer that I should have because I generally loved that job but looking back, I should have walked out the first time he got abusive, but I was young and naive.

    So kudos to the employees for standing up for them themselves. May they have a bright future. No amount of money can make up for being treated like that.

  53. Poison I.V. drip*

    Damaging company property during an angry outburst will get you fired on the spot in many places.

    1. Fluffy Fish*

      Unfortunately it seems they’re the owner since they’re threatening to close the business

    3. Paint N Drip*

      Others are clarifying that OP is the owner, but I think this is a good point. OP would likely fire someone who acted this way, a typical manager would fire someone who acted this way… so why is this letter framed the way it is? Clearly OP doesn’t agree or comprehend that actions like this are not compatible with being employed, regardless of your status or job title. Another commenter recommended OP hire an office manager and step back, and I totally agree.

  54. Fluffy Fish*

    OMgoodness. WOW OP, just WOW.

    You absolutely 1000% need anger management/therapy. The fact that you think there’s any kind of “explanation” is…bananas.

    This isn’t a whoopsie. This is very very very bad and you need to see that. Full stop, no excuses.

    In addition to profusely apologizing, if possible I would suggest a leave of absence to get help (and be transparent about it to your employees) and having someone else step in to fill your management duties in the interim.

    That’s it. that’s all I’ve got

    1. Fluffy Fish*

      Nope I got one more nugget.

      OP I promise you that this was not an isolated incident as in “I lost my cool but I’m otherwise a good manager”

      You are not a good manager. There are other problems with your management/ownership. This a a very bad symptom of a much bigger issue.

  55. HushedGalaxy*

    I’m going to go even farther and say that after an incident like this you just flat out shouldn’t be a manager. If you screamed and yelled and threw such a tantrum that your entire staff walked out without you taking responsibility, I have little trust that you would be able to effectively break the habits that lead you here.

    You may be an effective employee but your wires got crossed and if I were your employee I would not trust you again, even if you never blew up again.

  56. Hedgehug*

    Wow.
    “I know I messed up” they say at the end of an entire letter justifying their atrocious behaviour.

  57. H.Regalis*

    I am still so angry that I don’t want any of them back, but I need them. The way everyone has been acting lately, doing what they want, I am considering closing the business.

    You might have to close the business regardless since you seem to have lost all but one of your staff.

    You reap what you sow, LW.

  58. Busy Middle Manager*

    “don’t yell” has been covered so I will add:

    1) If you’re prone to fits, plan for them. Throw a pen on your desk or one of those hand pressure ball things
    2) All of this sounds like small bucks in the long run (though honestly not 100% sure what even happened due to how you wrote it and what it means to be “called out” – out of what, does that mean coming or going to work). Either way even if it’s a couple hundred dollars, it’s not a lot of money. If it is, you need to make sure protocols are followed in the future
    3) You can do the conversations as conversations one on one next time
    4) Even if you are 100% right here, you need to check if people are physically in the way before throwing/moving/pushing stuff
    5) And the big one – you need a dispute/problem resolution process thought out beforehand. This has been missing at all of my corporate jobs and when I take a step back, I realize that most people rage quitting, fighting, etc. was because there was no process to follow. Or they followed it in the past and HR either chalked up an actual problem to “personality conflict” or management kept delaying resolving the issue so people view the process as effectively useless.

  59. Bast*

    I worked for a boss who was a screamer (and yes, this was in my restaurant days). To an extent, I understood the WHY of it, and it helped me to put up with a lot of BS for longer than I should have. I understood that she was stressed beyond belief having dumped her life savings into opening this restaurant and was dealing with health issues that made it increasingly difficult for her to manage it; AND she was also a Type A micromanager who could not relinquish control to anyone to help put down some of her heavy load. That, however, did not give her the right to scream and shout at people and routinely tell them how terrible they were, and she quickly burned through the whole town of people who would work for her. I kid you not, the average employee lasted a month or two and left, and in a few years she could not find anyone to work for her, because word spread how awful she was to work for. This was not the only restaurant in town; people found other jobs. I’m sure she believed –as LW seems to — that we were all terrible employees and “deserved” it, but in reality, everyone was demoralized, demotivated, and we were constantly training brand new people, leading to a revolving door of staff, which tanked the staff, thus, creating a self fulfilling prophecy. PLEASE LW, CHANGE COURSE BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE. You are probably beyond stress, but you need some healthier coping mechanisms rather than shouting at staff and slamming doors. Therapy will likely help in more ways than you even think — it tends to improve your life all around and not just “the issue” that you go in there for.

    2. CommanderBanana*

      I always wonder about people like this. They must not have a shred of self-awareness.

      1. Bast*

        She genuinely did not, and was not a reasonable person in general. Her marriage tanked shortly after the restaurant shut down as well, and it was in part related. Her husband would come in to try and help her and she treated him just as poorly as everyone else. I’m sure it bled into their homelife as well. She expected both him and her employees to just stick around and get beat with the stick over and over.

  60. hi there*

    I was really hoping that I would keep reading and find the question “How do I repair this mistake?”

    Assuming this is out of character, OP, please consider a health checkup for underlying conditions that might impact your blood flow. I had a boss who became uncharacteristically reactive and abusive, and he had a heart attack. Not saying this is happening to you, but worth it to consider that this behavior is a symptom of a more serious issue.

    If it’s not a physical health issue, then therapy. Possibly therapy even if it is physical.

    1. kanada*

      Yeah, I noticed that too. In fact, there’s really no question in the letter, so I have to wonder what OP was looking for. Validation that they weren’t the worst person in this situation? A way to force their former employees back to work without apologizing?

      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        Yes, I noticed this as well and commented below (though it may still be going through moderation). My best guess was that the LW wanted to be told that it wasn’t so bad and the employees are being unreasonable.

    2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      Yeah, we don’t know if this type of thing is in or out of character, or whether this represents a recent change in behaviour or emotional stability. A comprehensive health check-up is a good idea.

  61. Savannah*

    As a manager myself, I get it. I understand get frustrated and angry with your team when they don’t do what you ask or always having to remind them to do something. It’s aggravating. However, I cannot imagine yelling, screaming or cursing at them or slamming my door that hard or, frankly, at all. Does my team know when I’m upset with them? Yes because I CALMLY talk to them and explain that, while I value each of them as a member of the team, their behavior/attitude needs work and how can I help them with whatever needs correcting.

    You deserve to lose your team and, I hope they don’t come back and file a complaint with HR if there’s one or L&I for hostile work environment. If you can’t manage your anger, closing the business is probably a good idea

    1. allathian*

      I’m guessing that this is a small business with so few employees that there’s no HR. Lots of people start their own business because they have authority issues and can’t take orders (I’m not saying the LW is one of these necessarily). Many business owners who have worked successfully for other people before consider being their own boss to be the biggest perk of running their own business.

      Most of those with authority issues are also crappy managers because they’ve never learned how to manage people rather than rule by fear.

  62. Lalitah*

    “I know that I shouldn’t get so angry and yell at them.”

    So, why did you? By your own admission, you know the behavior is *wrong* but you went ahead and engaged in said wrong behavior.

    This is a problem, LW. You have no business managing others until you get this abusive behavior under control.

    1. londonedit*

      That line sounds like someone talking about dealing with toddlers. ‘I know I shouldn’t get angry with my children, but there’s no let-up and they know how to push my buttons, so I end up yelling at them’.

      Employees are not children. You don’t own them. They’re not working for you as a favour, and they don’t have to put up with an abusive working environment.

      1. Heffalump*

        Your business also isn’t the armed forces, and you’re not your employees’ commanding officer.

      2. One of Many*

        And parents don’t / shouldn’t own their children either, regardless of how much social systems say otherwise!

  63. Indolent Libertine*

    LW, “I yelled and cussed at everyone but I didn’t call anyone a [insert variety of racial, religious, gender/sexual orientation-based, ableist slurs here]” is not quite the flex you think it is. Yelling, swearing, causing physical damage to a building (!), and following people outside to do more of the above after they walk out in entirely reasonable protest, is not how you run a business or manage people.

  64. admin Amber*

    I know this manager, not personally, but I have worked for someone like the OP. You are not fit to manage people and deserve every bit of karma coming your way. We are employees not posessions or nusisances. Please heed Alison’s advce and get therapy and take your own advice and close your business.

  65. Heffalump*

    I thought of Alison’s response to the “my employee wasn’t respectful enough when we messed up her paycheck” manager–you are very wrong, as a manager and as a human being.

    I once saw the owner of a small print shop yell at an employee. The employee walked out on the spot.

  66. Buffalo*

    “I did not yell at them, even though one of them did what she wanted today, not what I asked.”

    This is…concerning. It reads almost like you want credit for not yelling at this person.

    You have my sympathy. Managing staff can be hard. But if you’re generally the kind of person who feels entitled to yell at anyone who displeases them, that actually makes people likelier to do things that displease you.

    1. Peter the Bubblehead*

      I cannot help but think there is more information behind this sentence. How does an employee do “what she wanted” and “what I asked” and not get disciplined or fired, unless “what she wanted” was actually performing her job and serving a customer in some fashion when “what I asked” would have actually been something the ‘boss’ wanted done but was not actually necessary customer service, like being told to clean the employee bathroom when there’s a line of customers out the door at the front desk?
      I get the sense the OP worded things in such a way to attempt to put himself in a better light than reality would have shown – along the line of “but nothing discriminatory.” Employee was doing her job, just not specifically what the ‘boss’ felt he wanted her to do at that moment.

  67. The Other Dawn*

    I once worked indirectly for a yeller who was an EVP for the small business. Although I reported to the other EVP, I sometimes had to do work for the EVP who yelled. (For some reason, he never yelled at me and I still have no idea why.) It made some people afraid of him, others laughed at him behind his back and didn’t take him seriously. No one respected or trusted him and we all just learned to work around him. Had he not been someone who always yells and talks condescendingly to people, he could have been a great mentor to someone. He was very knowledgeable about the business.

    If LW’s employees come back, they’re likely to find ways to work around him/her until they eventually find another job. If they respected him previously, they likely don’t now.

    1. allathian*

      Did the yelling EVP yell at other people who weren’t in his direct report chain? If he yelled at others but not you, I’m as puzzled as you are. But if he didn’t yell at others, that’s classic abuser behavior. Abusers can be very charming to those who aren’t being abused, which makes it more difficult for them to escape the abuse.

  68. K in Boston*

    I’m concerned that the tone of this is so…nonchalant. You’re clearly aware that there’s some kind of issue — or else you wouldn’t have stated that you know you shouldn’t have yelled, or shared details like how hard you slammed the door, or written into Alison in the first place — but it doesn’t feel like you grasp the fact that this escalating the way it did indicates the extent to which this is out of the norm for a respectful, functioning, decent workplace.

    I think you should, at the least, take a break from the business for a bit. I don’t know if that means something like a couple weeks off or a longer leave of absence or closing the company all together, but it does seem like you could really benefit from taking some time away from what sounds like at least one source of stress (your job) to recalibrate your beliefs on what a healthy working environment looks like. Both your employees and you, yourself, deserve that.

    I’m sure a lot of folks will say therapy could be helpful, and I agree with that. Aside from that, though, there are a lot of good resources here on AAM that illustrate healthy working environments. You could talk to friends and family who really like their jobs and managers, and ask what it is they like — I imagine that for many people who like their jobs, at least part of it is because they feel like they work in at least an adequately non-toxic environment, and they may be able to share what makes the environment nice for them. I don’t know your work history or where you are, but if you haven’t worked in many other places or haven’t owned a business yourself for too long, I know some small-business networks offer mentors to help advise them.

    Also: I understand there’s only so much we can glean from a few paragraphs, but the behavior you described generally isn’t associated with someone who’s, well, happy, to put it simply (and I know philosophers have spent millennia sorting out what that means, but you get the gist of what I’m saying — you don’t sound like you’re at least generally content in the current season of your life). I’d suggest reflecting on if you actually like owning a company. It’s OK if you don’t. You tried it. Most people never get that far. But just because you probably did a lot of hard work to get to the point of opening/inheriting and operating a business doesn’t mean it’s the only choice you have. And if you do like owning a company, what is it that you like about it? Because it doesn’t sound like you like managing people, so maybe a one- or two-person kind of shop makes more sense (no idea if this makes sense for your industry).

    I know the comments are going to be harsh on this, but I hope you’re able to make some space to understand why that is. Good luck, OP.

  69. The Not-An-Underpants Gnome*

    I echo the comments of close the business.

    Leading by fear isn’t going to get you the productivity you want. Being feared ISN’T better than being respected.

    Close the business, sell the equipment, and use the funds to hire an attorney, because I guarantee this letter is gonna end up as evidence in a lawsuit for hostile work environment.

  70. Awkwardness*

    I yelled and cussed, but I did not say anything discriminatory.

    LW, maybe you can sit down at some point and take a look at what you have written.
    Not saying anything discriminatory is not a great thing, it’s the bare minimum.
    Do you pride yourself in acting with the bare minimum towards your employees if you choose this as a defense? Then you will get exactly this back from them.

    1. Andy*

      This dude absolutely says slurs when he thinks he can get away with it.

      It reads so strongly as “I didn’t say slurs **this time**.”

      1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        I don’t agree. I think it’s added self-justification: picture the worst thing and then if you did anything less than that, it’s okay.

        I yelled and cussed, but that’s *fine*. It’s not like I’m a horrible person who used *slurs*, I just screamed and broke things. I “supposedly” “almost” hit someone with a broken piece of doorframe, but they weren’t actually injured, so it’s *fine*.

        1. Buffalo*

          My read is closer to yours than to Andy’s, though I do see where Andy got there, particularly the last sentence. “I didn’t say anything discriminatory” is a…strange place for someone’s mind to go if saying a slur isn’t, on some level, on the table. But I think your read is the right one.

        2. Reading Rainbow*

          This is how I read it as well. People are taking that to mean that the LW wanted to, or maybe does, say discriminatory things. I think they are explaining why they think everyone overreacted*– they think it would be understandable if everyone walked out because they said slurs or something along those lines, and they are making sure to clarify that they did not do that. They’re saying ok, I did swear, but it was the kind of swearing we already do at work, and nothing worse than that!

          *I don’t agree with that, I’m just saying this is what they’re trying to get across with their description of events.

          1. Katherine*

            Could be one of these explanations. Could also just be that he’s reaching for something, anything, to defend himself. Speaking of terrible bosses (that I’ve already seen mentioned in this comment thread), the Leap Day boss wrote an update in which she went on and on about how the policy was *legal* (no one said it wasn’t, they said it was wrong.)

            I also remember some controversy with the ghosting expat dude, where some people were saying what he did was ok, you’re allowed to break up with someone, its not like he beat her. Coming up with a way it could have been worse seems to be the way a lot of people defend bad behavior.

  71. General von Klinkerhoffen*

    It sounds as though the culture or environment within the workplace has deteriorated to the point where LW thinks it’s normal to yell anything less than “watch out for that falling steel”.

    It’s often discussed on AAM that employees can get so used to an increasingly unhealthy environment that they can no longer recognise that it is harmful (like the boiling frog analogy). I don’t think we often – perhaps ever – discuss how managers can also get used to that environment and forget how to do better.

  72. Suzy Q*

    Wow. If any of the people who left files an unemployment claim, do not fight it. They have plenty of ammunition against you and lots of witnesses.

  73. sometimeswhy*

    OP, I’d like to tell you a story.

    I used to work in a technical service capacity. We had some high-volume, regular customers who kept their original designs on site for us to reproduce in bulk. They were our bread and butter. Our manager was a yeller and a clock-watcher and a thrower-of-things. He yelled if you clocked in early. He yelled if your break went a minute late. He yelled at me once because I wanted to trade shifts with someone so I could go to a parent-teacher conference. He yelled if you couldn’t do regular (or non-regular) maintenance on the equipment fast enough according to his unspoken and impossible standard. He yelled if you had a family emergency. He yelled if you asked for a raise, including the lady who’d been there ten years and who was getting paid less than minimum wage, somehow. He yelled and yelled and yelled.

    We didn’t walk out. This isn’t that story. It’s worse.

    One day, he was yelling and one of the high-volume, regular customers walked in. The manager had his back to the door and went on his entire spittle-slinging, curse-laden tirade in front of this guy. When he finished he realized we were all looking behind him, instead of at him. The customer said he’d come to make an order but instead he wanted all of his originals. All of them. And he wanted the product that we had on display that was his down too. The manager tried to schmooze him, tried to blame us (!) but the customer wouldn’t have it. The manager told us to start collecting things and the customer said that, no, the manager should do that, all of it.

    I’m assuming he called his other industry acquaintances when he got home (pre-cell phone) and over the next few weeks we lost most of of our bread and butter customers.

    It should’ve been a wake-up call for him but he didn’t learn anything and he kept yelling. People did eventually start walking out and he couldn’t keep a stable staff. Eventually he had a heart attack. Someone else bought the business and is doing much better with it.

    I hope this is a wake up call for you, OP. Your employees aren’t cogs. They’re people. And kindness will go a lot farther than whatever this was. It sounds like you need some work on yourself and I hope you can find it. Good luck.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      Talks about the cows coming home to roost!

      I know it’s easy to hate on people like your old boss, but I sometimes wonder what happened to them early in life that broke them so badly.

      1. Dawn*

        I think some people are broken, but others just learned early that being violent got them what they wanted. I remember some kids I went to grade school with who were just egregious bullies, for no real reason whatsoever, and although I left that town long ago I understand that a lot of them just kept doing it until they wound up dead (or a member of the Conservative party caucus, in at least one instance.)

        1. CommanderBanana*

          ^^ This. I’ve definitely worked with some people who had some trauma that manifested itself in their behavior. I’ve worked with people who had mental illnesses that they were not managed or treated that affected their work life. And I’ve worked with some people that had every privilege and were just…not great people.

          At the end of the day, while knowing why someone behaves the way they are may help explain their actions, it doesn’t justify them. And as a coworker, there’s really not much you can do.

  74. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

    LW, I’ve read your letter a couple times and I’m still not sure what it was you were hoping to get from writing in, since I couldn’t see a clear question or specific request for advice.

    My best guess at this stage is that you wanted Alison to tell you that what you did isn’t really a big deal and your staff are being unreasonable. That is very much not the case here. Particularly since the precipitating incident with the vacation time is so minor. And that you seem to want to penalize people for going home after working 16 hours of OT, possibly starting not long after a regular shift, at a time when they’d probably been awake for like 30 hours.

    The questions you don’t ask are equally telling. You don’t ask how to manage better. You don’t ask how to make it up to your staff, apologize properly, or how they can feel physically safe at work. You don’t ask about how to set reasonable policies around working overtime on call and having a regular shift overlapping or starting right after. You don’t ask about productive ways to address it when your employees aren’t following your instructions.

    My guess is that this is just the straw that broke the camels’ backs, you’re generally bad at managing people, and that your policies (whether formal or just decisions you make on an ad-hoc basis) suck. Your employees are human beings and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.

    Please listen to all the commenters and try to make some big changes in your mindset.

    1. Buffalo*

      Yeah, I think this might be the first AAM letter I’ve ever seen where there was no question and not even really an implied question. The LW is just…describing a scenario. You can read into it that they’re asking whether they were in the right, but they seem fairly confident that they were in the right.

      1. Dawn*

        It’s fairly rare, but it happens sometimes that someone who behaved badly writes in wanting Alison’s sign-off on their behaviour.

        This one is particularly egregious, in that it doesn’t even ask a question, but I think it’s pretty well implied that the writer wants Alison to say, “Yes, your employees were being unreasonable, and they owe it to you to return to work.”

  75. duinath*

    Your emotions seem out of your control, which is not great, but you also don’t seem to take accountability for it, which compounds the problem.

    You can’t fix the problem until you acknowledge what the problem actually is; you. That feels mean, it feels unfair, and I understand that, but you need to look at your actions and you need to look at your position in the situation.

    “The buck stops here.” It stops with the boss. That’s not out of a sense of honour, it’s because the boss is in the best position, out of everyone at the company, to make sure things go the way they are supposed to. The boss can decide who gets hired. Decide what happens when things go wrong. Decide who gets fired. Decide how people get fired, and for what. Decide how things get done, full stop.

    (Yes, I can think of exceptions to these, no I don’t think it matters for my point.)

    If you weren’t the boss? You would get fired after this. If you weren’t the boss and you worked in a place with a good boss? You would have been fired *before* this, if you even got hired at all.

    You need to recognize that everyone makes mistakes, it is human to make mistakes, and you are just a person, but this was a big mistake to make.

    Nothing your employees did warrants this.

    I think a class in management or running a business would be great for you. I think anger management strategies would be incredibly valuable to you, not only at work but also at home.

    I know you didn’t mention this at all, but I cannot imagine you are completely different at home. I think your conflict resolution skills need work *overall*, and I think you’ll be happier for it.

    It’s not fun to be furious. It doesn’t feel good to be slamming doors and screaming at people. You don’t have to feel like that ever has to be part of your life.

    …Sorry, this got away from me. TLDR, you should do better and I am confident that if you put in the work and learn, you *can* do better.

  76. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

    “She has been sending out text messages talking B.S.”

    Translation: She has been communicating true and accurate statements about what an unfit business owner I am, and all of my employees agree with her.

    Your impulse to take your ball and go home is actually correct here. You will not be punishing anyone other than yourself by closing your business, and it’s punishment that you richly deserve. Best of luck going and getting a job where you aren’t the boss, hope it works out better for you than it did for your former employees.

    1. Black*

      Exactly. Close the business as the OP has no business managing people Frankly the incoming hostile work environment lawsuit may close it for them.

    2. Observer*

      “She has been sending out text messages talking B.S.”

      Translation: She has been communicating true and accurate statements about what an unfit business owner I am, and all of my employees agree with her.

      Exactly.

      LW, keep in mind that your staff have an absolute and protected right to have these conversations. You don’t have to like it, but you CANNOT legally try to make them stop.

      1. Union Rep*

        Yup! Starbucks has effectively infinite money to defend their various labor violations (and snooping employee text threads is a favorite) and their stores are unionizing left and right regardless. OP doesn’t have that kind of money. For a small business on the edge, the cost of defending one unfair labor practice charge (and there are multiple just in this letter!) probably shuts down the business. OP should consider learning and following the relevant labor and employment laws for their state instead.

  77. Link*

    There are exceedingly few cases where I would endure being yelled at by a boss (or seeing someone get yelled at by our boss), and that is if I/they do something so exceedingly stupid that endangers life or limb, or will result in major loss (like the wrong chemicals being mixed for whatever reason that will result in fire or boom).

    Now, that said, I didn’t see anything in your letter that indicated such a circumstance, so get a hold of yourself. Close the business doors for a while, and re-evaluate yourself, and get yourself more managerial training. Or if you’re the owner, HIRE someone with managerial experience to do what you cannot: Manage People in a respectful way. Like Alison said, you quite frankly deserve to lose all your employees over this outburst. Get some help asap! Yes you had a trying day from the perspective of a boss, but my god, aside from immediate danger to life and limb, you have zero, ABSOLUTELY ZERO, right to do what you did to your entire office/worksite.

    You should have written policies and procedures for when someone doesn’t properly follow protocol when filling out payroll, or other critical processes, which outline disciplinary actions for failure to follow these policies. Was this a one off event? Or is it a recurring pattern? If it’s the latter, you likely need more onboarding for newer employees, or better training and instructions.

    On a really minor note, you said the door frame/facing shattered when you slammed the door? I’m concerned about the quality and safety of the building if a door slam resulted in flying debris. Most humans aren’t capable of slamming doors and creating flying debris from that without being excessively strong from bodybuilding, or having poor quality materials used for the building.

    1. Forensic13*

      I suspect that door has been slammed a lot and it, too, was just on its final tolerance.

  78. The Kulprit*

    Did you just ask for brownie points for throwing a fit, and damaging property but didn’t use any slurs or related language?

    OP read what you wrote. Is there a world in which you would allow yourself or a loved one to be spoken to like that?

    I’m guessing no. So why is it acceptable to treat your employees this way? It is not. Please take Allison’s advice if nothing else and recognize that this is not normal or ok.

  79. agonyaunt*

    I’m really hoping OP is going to take Alison’s advice to heart because I’ve been on the employee end of this sort of workplace and by all accounts it is still struggling to run as a functional workplace because senior management refuse to accept that their behaviour is not how a workplace should be run.

    Some highlights from my experience there:
    – Staff member who went from being excited about a new pregnancy and planning to work up until at least 8 months to suddenly quitting without notice after an hour-long closed door meeting with senior management;
    – Senior management having a human rights complaint filed against them for refusing to use a former employees correct pronouns (and by all accounts, going out of their way to deliberately misgender the employee). The biggest kicker of this incident was all the ex-employee was asking for was money to cover their period of unemployment and an apology; senior management would give them the money but were incensed at the idea of having to apologize;
    – More minor than the above but I repeatedly had pens yanked out of my hand during staff meetings; I take notes as a way to concentrate/not get distracted but senior management thought I shouldn’t be recording anything that wasn’t my own tasks (even if much of what I was writing down was other people’s work that would later require my input/other work from me), because they didn’t like the idea of people keeping records of their conversations/meetings; and
    – Yelling/raised voices was the norm around the office, only from senior management towards staff though (or senior management yelling at the other senior management because they were married and occasionally brought their marital issues into the office) because staff would get sent home if senior management thought you were remotely raising your voice/taking a ‘tone’ with them.

    It has taken me almost a decade to unpack the panic reactions I picked up in that workplace (an example, in jobs following, I had to ask my bosses to please put meeting agendas in invites when booking impromptu meetings with me, because I was so used to being called into impromptu closed door meetings to be yelled at for perceived failures that getting an out of the blue invite with no agenda would make me start panicking) and the only thing I can say I learned from working there was how not to manage people/a functional workplace.

  80. Robert*

    hello. all of the comments are correct I did act like a jersey. actually an as*.
    I was not clear. I did not yell at the employees that worked the overtime. my problem was the new payroll clerk that did not pay them the way I told her too. I told her to do things the way I told. I am the one that will suffer the consequences if it is wrong. I bluece that should do what I ask. later in the day, I asked her how she handled it. she told me me she did it a completely different way than we discussed. that made me angry. both times I told her she works for me and she should do it the way I asked. both times I walked away, I did cuss on the way out. when someone else told me they did a job differently than I told them.
    I have to explain to clients why things are done completely different from how I said the would be done. that is when I lost it and broke the door.
    I repeat “I know that i am an asshole”
    I apologized profusely to the employees that was almost hit by debris.
    all employees returned to work except one and her husband. she was not involved in the incident and her husband definitely was not. her.reason for quiting in her unemployment claim was that she did not feel safe.
    as far as the employees that were on call: they were paid overtime for the hours that worked over 40 hours. they are so paid a stipend for being on call even if they are not called out. plus they are paid overtime. I believe the payroll clerk paid them some vacation. my issues and anger was not with them. it was with the payroll clerk for not doing things they way I asked her too.
    again I was an ass that day.
    I am not just the manager , I own the company. I am willing to suffer the consequences of my behavior, whatever they may be. the company is for sell if I don’t shut it down first.

    1. BellyButton*

      I hope you aren’t going to fight her unemployment claim. I wouldn’t feel safe in an office with someone yelling, cussing, and slamming doors so hard trim goes flying off.

        1. I Count the Llamas*

          Can I just say how much I appreciate it when you (or maybe multiple people?) use this name to flag when the OP posts!

    2. WellRed*

      Please drop “ you work for me” and all its variations from your mindset and your vocabulary. It’s basically the workplace of “do you know who I am?” It never solves the problem or gains you respect. Quite the opposite in fact. Managing requires actual managing, not simply making sure everyone knows you are Man In Charge.

    4. ragazza*

      It doesn’t matter if you know how you acted was wrong if you aren’t willing to do anything about changing it. Your employee doesn’t feel safe (and I’m betting most of the others don’t either). That is a big deal, and why should anyone believe this kind of thing won’t happen again and again?. You need to change your behavior and your attitude toward your employees, or yeah, shut it down.

      1. Observer*

        That is a big deal, and why should anyone believe this kind of thing won’t happen again and again?

        Right. They shouldn’t believe that unless and until the LW starts working on changing their attitude and behavior. And show some real progress.

        LW this is the key question. What are you doing to change things, and to insure that you never act this way again? What are you doing additionally to give people some reason to believe that you are making useful changes that will keep them safe?

    5. Peanut Hamper*

      Admitting that you were acting like an ass is an important first step. But it’s not enough. You need to want to change that aspect of yourself.

      After reading your original letter and this comment several times, I’m still not entirely sure what you want as an outcome here. Have you defined that yet? (Other than selling the business, that is.)

      Also, the new payroll clerk made a mistake. This is a structural issue: either they did not have enough training or enough oversight while they are still new. Have you considered why you somehow managed to take this personally? They made a mistake, which happens. But they didn’t make a mistake at you.

      You are not the business. Employees make mistakes. Part of being an effective manager is not taking those mistakes personally. You need to separate your identity from the company. That is hard to do in a small business (especially if your name is on the shingle), but if you are going to manage people effectively, you must.

    6. Emotional support capybara (he/him)*

      Oh wow, didn’t even see this when I commented.

      Dude, YOU ALMOST HIT SOMEONE WITH PIECES OF A DOOR and you’re shocked that people who were there to witness it might not feel safe working with you!?

      And sorry, but “I cussed but I didn’t say any slurs” is not the face-saver you think it is.

      You should not run a business. Close it, go to therapy, do something about your spectacular anger management issues, and get on with your life.

    7. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      So, why don’t you have a written process for this? Tell the payroll clerk “Pay them using the formula in Section 1.5 of the payroll process document”

      That’s another part of being a good manager – making decisions in advance, thinking them through, and writing them down – instead of deciding things on the fly, leading to miscommunication and confusion.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        I agree; Robert’s business needs a policy for how to handle these types of OT events; the payroll clerk needs to be taught the policy.

        My other comment to Robert is in the situation that you have a policy you can tell the NEW payroll clerk, “you need to do it this because it’s our policy” and not “I’m your boss and you need to do it my way.”

    8. Saturday*

      Thanks for commenting – I know that must be tough to face a group of people telling you that you were wrong. It’s good that you recognize the mistake, and the fact that you still have employees means that you have a chance to improve things from here. I hope things get better!

    10. President Pospoise*

      Robert, the two employees who left were married. That tells me that what you did *was perceived by them* to be so horrible that they were willing to walk with no safety net or income for their whole family. They would rather be left in a vulnerable position – in today’s economy – than work for you any long because they were scared of what you might do.

      Whether you agree that you wronged them specifically or not is immaterial. They looked at the situation and decided as a couple that they would rather face the uncertainty of having both breadwinners be unemployed than continue in that environment.

      What you need to do is change the environment. It sounds like you have some middle management in place, but it’s not effective. New employees are not trained to your standard before performing work (which is normal) – and even a minor screwup by a new person is evidentially a crisis that requires a volcanic response (which is not normal, even above and beyond your response – you should have contingency plans in place, or a secondary work reviewer or something like that).

      Beyond Alison’s advice re: management training and therapy, I suggest you hire someone to manage your staff for you. You apparently need to have a person who is handling the day to day who is skilled at driving staff efficiency, morale, and training – but who most importantly will act as a buffer between you and the rest of the team. Over time, as your management skill improves, you might be able to get more into the day to day.

      Otherwise, really think about selling your business. You’re hurting your reputation right now (your staff who leave will go to your competitors, who will use this against you with potential clients or suppliers). Reputation is the very hardest thing to repair and sticks with a business, so if it goes too far your company won’t be worth as much.

    12. ClaireW*

      OP, apologies or not, you need to really sit with yourself and recognise that screaming and yelling and cussing at employees is *abusive*. Breaking a door, even if the person who almost got hit with it wasn’t someone you were annoyed at, is an extremely violent thing to do. it’s unreasonable for you to expect your employees to feel safe in your office, or comfortable doing their jobs, when you continue to justify your anger and when they feel like they might be the next target of blatant workplace violence. You need to figure out why you got so angry and weren’t able to handle your frustration like a healthy adult.

    13. Pissed Off Payroll*

      Different states and localities have rules and regulations about Overtime.

      Example – Most States in The South follow the FLSA and pay Overtime for hours worked over 40 in a work week. HOWEVER Colorado, California etc. have LAWS that MANDATE Overtime be paid for Hours worked over 12 (sometimes 10) in a shift.

      So if an employee works 12.50 hours over 3 days (EMT / Police / Medical etc.) in Georgia the employee would be paid 37.50 of Regular hours BUT in Colorado the would receive 1.50 hours of Overtime.

      Your Payroll person may have been trying to follow the LAW and keep you in compliance regardless of what you TOLD them to do !!!!

      1. cee*

        This! The way OP is saying that he believes its his employee’s job to do what they are told is hugely problematic. There are so many situations where good employees should ignore what their boss tells them to do, compliance is a good example.

        Healthy businesses should hire people with the expertise to not need to be told what to do.
        The language here makes it seem like he sees his employees as minions that should blindly do his bidding, not professionals who can make judgement calls.

      2. Sparkles McFadden*

        Yes, exactly. You don’t get to ignore the LAW just because you’re the boss!

    14. K in Boston*

      I’m glad you recognize that your actions were in the wrong. I worry, though, that it sounds like that while you know that you shouldn’t have yelled and slammed a door, you may think that your anger itself was justifiable. I hope you know that it was not. A new employee messing up a process that is new to them is not only common, but should be expected to occur unless there are specific controls in place to prevent that. (Of course, if there’s a pattern of mistakes or they are very serious mistakes — like they could’ve reasonably resulted in extreme problems or death — there’s a different course of action you take.)

      I hear you that their mistake caused problems for you, but it sounds like a relatively low-level mistake — annoying, but reasonably manageable and fixable. And if it was a much more impactful mistake, then part of your responsibility as a manager is to put the aforementioned controls in place to minimize the chances of it from happening. Your anger was not only alarming in its intensity, but also just plain misdirected.

      The comments probably aren’t going to be kind to you, but I appreciate that you’ve elaborated some and have made it clear that you are willing to own up to the consequences of your actions. I really do wish you the best in finding a work situation that doesn’t cause you quite so much distress. Good luck, Robert.

    15. spiriferida*

      There should have been a lot of conversation between the employee doing something wrong, and you getting to the point where you were yelling at her. This is what Alison means, when she tells you that you need to work on your management skills. It’s not good management to tell everyone to do something ‘because I said so’ and ‘because I’m the boss’.

      When you found out the employee had done things differently, here’s a few things you should have tried instead;

      – Told them that you wanted to do it this way, and explained your reasoning.
      -Calmly asked why the employee had done it a different way.
      – Listened to any objections the employee had and taken them into consideration, before explaining why those objections might not apply. Or modifying your plans, if their objections are actually reasonable! You are not infallible.
      – Explained your procedure for this again, asking the employee to note it down and come to you if there were any questions in the future.
      – If they continued to do things against your guidance, have a talk with them (CALMLY!) about following instructions. Tell them that if they continue not to you’ll have to monitor their work and maybe fire them.
      – Follow through on firing them if they continue to not follow instructions.

      Errors happen in businesses. If there are a lot of mistakes happening to the point where you’re constantly having to apologize to clients, it’s because you haven’t set up a good system for catching errors, and you haven’t done a good job at training your employees. Everything that happens at your business is your responsibility, and yelling at people isn’t going to fix that. Only training them well and putting in systems to catch errors will.

    16. lost academic*

      You don’t understand that you’re not JUST an ass, or an asshole. What you fail to understand is that your behaviors are consistently wildly imappropriate in a business environment and that it was perfectly appropriate, correct and necessary that your employees walk out on you after all that. Your staff were not safe. You were a reasonable danger to them. I wouldn’t have at all been surprised if someone had called the cops.

      You cannot continue to behave that way and make excuses. You have not yet begun to suffer the consequences. Your business reputation, I guarantee, is already on a strong downward trend because this is going to get around because of how absolutely wrong you were. Your personal reputation will quickly follow. Take steps now to correct your way of thinking and with it your behavior. It doesn’t even matter if you close your business, you are going to have a hard time finding a place that will employ you because word of this will get around. I would never hire someone for any role that had acted this way.

    17. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

      That decision–to sell the company if possible, and otherwise shut it down–makes sense.

      If possible, go back to non-management work doing whatever it is your current company does, either as an employee of someone else’s business, or as an independent contractor without employees.

      Alison has gotten other letters about people who are good at doing something, and then were promoted into management, without any training in management. Did you start as an independent contractor, and then hire people as your business grew? If so, take this as the universe telling you to get out of management and back to doing the work you do know how to do.

    18. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      Robert, I appreciate your willingness to come into the comments here. But stop saying you’re an asshole. That’s a cover for not dealing with the problem, which is your behavior.

      Your employee did not “make you” mad. Could she “make you” happy when you were raging? Nope. These are *your* feelings and you chose to act the way you did. I recently heard a therapist say anger is always a cover for another emotion and I have found that to be true. Anger is easier. You need to figure out what is behind your anger so that you can respond reasonably to problems. Worry, fear, stress, anxiety, frustration? What is the real concern?

      “I told you to do X and you did Y – why is that?” If you don’t ask, you’ll never find out what the problem is, so you’ll never fix it.

      BTW, when you “remind” people you are in charge… what do you imagine is the point of that? They already know. Do you think they forgot? Learn to use your words to say what the actual problem is. Just because you own the business, you don’t magically become good at managing people. It’s a skill like any other you have learned.

      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        Yes, I’m getting a “this is just how I am” vibe from this, though I absolutely be wrong.

      2. RVA Cat*

        This.
        Coincidence of names, but I keep thinking of how Gayle King so calmly said “Robert” to R. Kelly.

    19. Observer*

      she was not involved in the incident and her husband definitely was not. her.reason for quiting in her unemployment claim was that she did not feel safe.

      Don’t fight her unemployment. Because she is 100% correct for not feeling safe. You are not a safe person.

      You can be sure that all of the other staff is looking for new jobs. And they are not going to give you much notice when they leave. At least your best staff won’t because they are not going to want to deal with your unhinged reaction.

      It’s good that you are beginning to realize how badly you have acted. But you have barely scratched the surface. You don’t understand why someone who was not the direct target might feel unsafe when witnessing such violence on the part of the boss – and then your later reaction of telling them that they need your “permission” to leave in the immediate aftermath of your flying off the handle in a *literally* dangerous way.

      You spend a lot of time explaining why you lost it. But you don’t seem to realize that not only were you a jerk, but that your behavior is unsafe, legitimately makes people feel unsafe, and that your level of uncontrolled anger is out of normal or reasonably healthy bounds. And you don’t talk at all about any thoughts of changing how you handle infuriating situations.

      Which means that the biggest issue is not the consequences to the business but the possibility that you will wind up doing something with far worse ramifications if you don’t get your emotion and behavior under control.

    20. Ellis Bell*

      I’m going to suggest anger management. If you get good coaching, you’ll understand that it doesn’t matter that “my issues and anger was not with them” because anger is completely inappropriate and frightening just to be near, especially from someone in power. For all they knew, they were next. If you get successful anger management treatment, you will understand that visible or detectable anger is also completely unacceptable and even more frightening to the person you do have an issue with. It’s abusive, and I say that as a formerly angry person. There’s no way that this isn’t affecting you in other parts of your life and it will make a difference to you if you remove anger completely from your problem solving kit.

    21. I should really pick a name*

      What was your goal in writing this letter?
      There doesn’t appear to be an actual question.

    22. Ginger Cat Lady*

      I’m gonna go out on a small limb and say that what you asked her to do was probably not legal, moral or ethical, and that she was RIGHT to stand up to you and your blustering.
      Why do I think that? Because your actions show no respect for your employees, and no moral or ethical compass. When you work for a dictator, employees sometimes stand up for each other. It’s the whole premise of unions. Employees working together to ensure good treatment from employers. Your small business may not be big enough for unionization, but your employees sure could use some protection from you.
      Your employees do not have to give up their moral compass for you, just because “they work for you” or “you said so”
      And they definitely don’t have to stick around and put up with your temper tantrums and abuse. Maybe they’re back *for now* but I’d bet money they’re all job searching. Every last one of them.

    23. Stopgap*

      Yeah, I wouldn’t feel safe, either. She may not have been involved this time, but now she knows that breaking things in an angry fit is within your range of responses. This time it was a door – for all she knows, next time it will be an arm.

    24. Festively Dressed Earl*

      I also think you have a communication issue. You say that your employees aren’t doing what you’ve instructed them to do, but judging from your original letter and your comment it’s very possible that your instructions aren’t as clear to others as they are to you. (Did you notice how many commenters are having trouble parsing your story?) Try this: when you give someone else an instruction, finish by asking them to summarize the task in their own words, and ask them “what questions do you have?” instead of “do you have any questions?” People often hesitate to ask for clarification for fear of seeming stupid or triggering an angry response. It takes a little extra time and it may be a while before others feel safe enough to answer you honestly, but it will cut down on frustration and problems once you’ve rebuilt their trust.

    25. Dark Macadamia*

      It’s… concerning that you got mad *at all* when a NEW employee did something wrong. ONE mistake should just result in explaining it again or directing her to the proper resources or maybe asking what happened. Why would you be angry? Why would you assume she’s disrespecting your authority and not just… new? Why would you try the same “you work for ME and need to OBEY” approach a second time when she obviously needed actual support?

      It also kind of feels like you’re using the fact that the people you screamed at aren’t the ones who left as evidence that it wasn’t a big deal. There’s a bit of an “ugh she’s overreacting and misrepresenting the situation” vibe to how you describe that woman here and in your letter, but the fact that the most abused employees haven’t left yet actually makes it worse, because it seems like maybe those people are more vulnerable (younger, poorer, less experience with a healthy work environment?)

    26. Humble Schoolmarm*

      First, good on you for both reading through and wading into the comments. I realize it can’t be easy. Also, thank you for clarifying that this was an issue with one person, I thought you might have gotten frustrated with the whole office and that advice wouldn’t have been useful to you.

      Now for the advice: 1) Do not, I repeat, do not yell at a group because of something one person did. Your best employees likely were sincerely frightened and two (minimum, I’m certain this is still an issue) days of work were lost to all the upset. You’ve managed to do serious harm to your reputation as a boss and business owner because the staff will certainly share their experience and it’s also likely that your remaining staff will avoid letting you know of any mistake they made until it’s very difficult to fix because they were afraid of a similar response.

      2) Yelling at one employee who did not follow instructions is not an effective or useful management strategy. If you didn’t fire your employee right away, you must be hoping they’ll do it right next time. The problem is that losing control like this puts almost everyone in fight or flight mode and you actually can’t learn anything like that. There are tons of other options, that will get you where you want to much better than yelling or breaking things.

    27. Hroethvitnir*

      Good for you engaging with the comments. All I have to add is that I have a background that doesn’t necessarily take issue with swearing, or even some yelling, but your description indicates you are way past the line – and it’s overwhelmingly you are regularly very unreasonable, because people virtually never walk out en masse from just one incident.

      My father has built a trades business from the ground up, he has a temper, and he has *never* done anything remotely like this. Frankly, a lot of his job these days is mediating interpersonal issues between the mostly young men he manages.

      I hope you can find a way to understand and address the entire issue in how you are treating people, whether or not that means closing down.

    28. NothingIsLittle*

      Hi Robert. You remind me of my dad, and not in a bad way. He’s a small business owner and has always been a yeller when he gets angry (though I don’t know if he’s actually yelled at his employees). Being a business owner is really stressful and, especially when money is on the line, it can feel like people not listening to instructions are deliberately sabotaging you.

      I think at least some of it is fear, because when big mistakes are made sometimes there’s not actually enough money to cover expenses until it’s fixed. There have been a couple of close calls where he’s had to borrow money from me until a billing problem’s been corrected because the overcharge is that serious or the outstanding payment from a client is that large.

      That being said, I’m a fairly small disabled woman and when I’ve been yelled at or been around yelling at work I do genuinely fear for my safety. There’s a man I work with now who’s a yeller and is much bigger than me, and even though he’s never been physically violent in the past there isn’t a single thing I could do to stop him if he crossed that line. You might know that you will never cross the line into physical violence, but being so angry that you raise your voice makes that difficult to believe from the outside. I know my dad would never hurt me because he’s my dad and I’ve lived with him for 20 years; I don’t know nor trust that my coworker wouldn’t hurt me if he got angry enough.

      Please find a way not to raise your voice at or within earshot of your employees. I’m sure it doesn’t feel like a big deal to you since no one was hurt and you didn’t intend any malice, but that doesn’t actually make it feel safer. Even the employees that you didn’t yell at or include in your anger this time now know that mistakes (which to them might seem reasonable misunderstandings) can trigger your anger so much that you damage things. They may want to get out before they’re next. (And maybe you think you’d never need to yell at them because they’re good employees, but they don’t have enough information to know that.)

    29. We’re Six*

      “ my problem was the new payroll clerk that did not pay them the way I told her too. I told her to do things the way I told. I am the one that will suffer the consequences if it is wrong”

      So we have a new payroll clerk. Was she trained on the way to do things “the way [you] wanted them” done? Was that way actually legal??? You mention that you’d suffer the consequences if stuff wasn’t done correctly but like, are we talking about strictly wage law consequences or more like “if the payroll person doesn’t do X the way I tell her to then I’m in compliance with labor laws—-but it’s also costing me money, damn it”

      Also a new employee was almost hit by a flying door, I really can’t stress that enough. I mean, WTF man. Have you apologized to her for that? Promised you won’t stand in the way of anyone’s unemployment claims over this including hers? Because dude. Come on now.

    30. Peter the Bubblehead*

      Can’t help but wonder if – in this case – the payroll employee did what they did because the law requires it and following OP’s instructions would have violated the law? I can easily see the conversation going something like this:
      OP: Record the hours worked (how I’m telling you).
      Payroll: I can’t do that, it’s against the law.
      OP: Do it my way anyway!
      Payroll: (Records hours in accordance with local rules and regulations.)
      OP: WHY DON’T YOU LISTEN AND ENTER THE PAYROLL THE WAY I WANTED YOU TO?!?!?
      Payroll: But…!
      OP: DO WHAT I TELL YOU TO!
      Payroll: But that will break the law…
      OP: SHUT UP! JUST DO THINGS THE WAY I TELL YOU TO DO THEM! I’M THE BOSS AROUND HERE, NOT YOU!!!

    31. Irish Teacher.*

      Hi Robert. Thank you for coming to engage with us and give us some extra information. I know we’ve been pretty critical of you and I do want to say fair play for not coming in with a load of excuses and an insistance that you were right and we just don’t know how frustrating these employees are.

      You’ve acknowledged you were wrong and that is a great first step.

      But I am concerned about the employee who left. She is now presumably dependant on unemployment, because of your actions, which is pretty unfair to her. Is there anything you can do to help her out? Give her some kind of severance/compensation to tide her over until she finds another job? It doesn’t seem fair that she should be out of pocket because of your behaviour. And I hope you will give her a good reference.

      I also notice a little bit of distancing language when you say “her reason for quitting in her unemployment claim was that she did not feel safe” rather than saying, “she left because my actions caused her to feel unsafe” or “she left because she didn’t feel I was safe to be around.” The reality is that she is now so frightened of you that she quit her job rather than risk being around you. You may know you would never hurt her, but she does not.

      You say that you know you were an ass that day so I’m going to ask you a question I ask my students when they behave badly: “what are you going to do differently now?” What are you going to change to ensure both that your employees and others feel safe around you and so as to ensure this never happens again? Not just at work. It can’t happen again in any situation. As somebody else mentioned, had somebody been injured with that door, you could have been at risk of criminal charges. And I am sure you do not want people to think you are a threat to their physical safety.

      Even if you sell the business, this isn’t just a work related issue. You don’t want people in the rest of your life to fear you either. So the issue isn’t whether or not to shut down your business; it’s how to change your behaviour.

      I also hope if you do sell your business, you will do all you can to ensure this does not disadvantage your employees, by giving them a good bit of notice, generous severance and good references. I think rather than focussing on your suffering the consequences of your behaviour, you need to focus on ensuring your employees, including the woman who quit, don’t suffer any negative consequences from it.

  81. Czech Mate*

    OP, I was the employee in this scenario at my old company. The owner/operator and I had a heated argument, and she told me that if I didn’t do something she wanted, she would “find someone who will.” I immediately gave notice. From what I understand, she has struggled to find someone to fill my role, much less do what she wanted (the thing she wanted me to do, for the record, was something that some reps from the US government had specifically told me NOT to do, if that matters.)

    You need to remember that while you as the (owner? CEO?) are personally invested in the success of the business and may have your emotions and finances wrapped up in it, your employees don’t. They’re ultimately looking out for their own interests. They will never have the level of attachment that you have to the company. That’s okay! That’s how it works. But, it does mean that you need to recognize that you need to work on cultivating a company where people want to work, because otherwise, they’ll all leave. My old boss struggled to see this, and it has reallyyyyy cost her.

    1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      And being the owner / CEO doesn’t mean you have absolute power. Like in your example – the boss wanted something done that’s against the law / instructions of regulatory agencies. What she wants doesn’t override that. Your company is not your private fiefdom where your word is likened to god’s.

  82. Elbe*

    Yikes. Yikes.

    The LW should seriously consider this: You have created such a horrible work environment that five people would rather go without an income (including a couple that has now lost both incomes) rather than having to work with you. Quitting a job on-the-spot is not something that people do lightly. These people have given up financial security, may have given up their healthcare, may now have gaps on their resume, may be unable to pay bills, etc. and they did it all… just to get away from you. That is how badly you are treating them.

    Alison is right that the LW doesn’t seem to think of these employees as full people who deserve respect. They are not servants; they are not robots or extensions of the business. They are real people with real feeling who have standards and expectations about how they will be treated on the job. Any reasonable person should expect conflict to be handled reasonably.

    I sincerely hope that the LW goes to therapy to resolve their anger issues and lack of respect for other people. This business should 100% close, because the LW clearly does not know how to manage without being abusive.

  83. BellyButton*

    “I yelled and cussed, but I did not say anything discriminatory.” It feels like a “this time” is missing from this statement.

    LW states “but I need them” Yeah, you don’t have a business without employees and if you treat your employees like that, they should walk out.

    2. KYParalegal*

      Definitely feels like it’s missing a “this time” (or a quiet “because they were white, straight, able-bodied, and the same religion/national origin as me, so those slurs didn’t apply” part).

  84. Ask Me How I Know*

    Oh, Robert. You deserve to be healthy and happy, too. Close your business, get therapy, and start over. You’re currently on the road to nowhere. Good luck, really.

  85. Lola*

    There are obvious issues on how you deal with anger, and that takes a lot of involvement and dedication on your part to work on. In the meantime, you can also work on preventing the situations that get you so angry.

    From your letter, most of the issues (maybe all, some were unspecified) came from people doing things differently from your instruction, or doing things without asking for instruction.

    Work on clear, concise communication, make it clear to the supervisor(s) what they can approve and what they need to consult you on, explain why you’re instructing to do stuff in a certain way whenever possible (and that’s not “because I’m your boss”.)
    And keep in mind that even with clear communication, people sometimes make mistakes – if that happens you should be able to just correct an re-instruct without being mad about it.
    I hope you can course-correct and become a better boss, but that will take some effort on your part. Good luck!

  86. Harper the Other One*

    OP, folks above have said a lot of what I wanted to say, particularly re. seeking therapy and strongly considering closing the business because you are not in a good space to be running one right now. But I want to highlight something from early in your letter:

    “Before I lost it, multiple employees had done the opposite of what I instructed today.”

    Why do you think that is? Because when I read the rest of your letter, which shows not great decision making throughout, I can’t help but think that your employees may have been trying to do what NEEDED to be done and that was completely different from what you TOLD them to do. Would you ever have been open to your staff telling you that your instructions didn’t take into consideration a problem or upcoming deadline?

    If you do some soul searching and decide that you still want to maintain a business, you are going have to recognize that the people who work for you may have good or even essential input to give you, or you will rapidly become frustrated and angry again.

    1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      That’s a fair question: why are the employees ignoring the instructions their boss is giving? The LW appears to assume – and presumably wants us to assume – that it’s because they’re disobedient and disrespectful. But he may also be the “Missing Stair” in his own company that people have to work around to get stuff done.

      From a comment, Robert said that one of the big examples of disregarding his instructions was the payroll person around processing the time off as vacation. Maybe she was just ignoring directions. But it’s possible she was doing things the way the law requires so that the LW isn’t open to a complaint to the Labour Relations Board (or whatever similar body exists where he is). The staff might be doing their absolute best to keep things running as smoothly as possible, in the face of instructions that don’t make sense or are illegal.

      The reflection question is a good one, LW. If you gave someone an instruction and they tried to tell you about an issue with doing it that way or to propose another way, would you listen? Why or why not?

  87. TheBunny*

    The minute you have to tell people you are their boss, you’ve already lost the battle.

    They are adults. They don’t need permission from you to do anything. Yes, in the context of work they need your approval/permission to do certain things, but not having it doesn’t stop them from doing those things, it just means there could be work related consequences. It appears they were fine with that, and in a group.

    The yelling has to stop. You know this. I don’t know how to tell you what to do to make it stop but it sounds like you need anger management to figure out productive ways to process stress, which employees definitely cause.

    I am sympathetic to your situation as you do sound stressed…but you handled it badly in so many different ways it’s tough to know how to start.

    Please, please find better ways to handle this stress. It’s not good for anyone.

    And yes they absolutely should have walked out.

  88. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

    The issue started with disagreement of PTO on the same week as OT. My previous company didn’t allow it without prior approval. But what does your company’s policy say? Is there a union? Does the policy state that all PTO needs to be approved in advance?
    One supervisor allowed the employees to leave. Was PTO discussed at that time? Did the supervisor communicate that the PTO was approved? Another supervisor (or the same one?) rejected their timecards with PTO. What is your role in this, LW? Are you the company owner? Manager over one or both supervisors?

    1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

      My apology – I just read the LW’s/Robert’s response above. LW is the owner. My primary advice is to get the policy down in writing. Make certain everyone reads and understands it (including your payroll clerk). Apologize to the entire company for your lapse in judgement.

  89. Emotional support capybara (he/him)*

    OP, instead of complaining that the workers you abused had enough and walked out, you should be grateful that the one you ALMOST HIT WITH DOOR SHRAPNEL isn’t hauling you into court for it. Good God, man.

  90. Friday Hopeful*

    No matter how crazy the outburst was, people don’t leave when it happens the first time. I seriously suspect this is an angoing problem and that was the very last straw.

  91. Jessie Spano*

    “I slammed it so hard that some of the door facing flew off.” Dad? I thought you retired…

    1. Ask Me How I Know*

      I had to laugh. I think that some of us who grew up in “that house” are more likely to put up with that sort of nonsense out in the world, and some of us are much more likely to walk out and never look back. I’m in the second camp and I don’t believe that abuse merits second chances.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      Same, same….I got some serious PTSD shivers reading this letter and I really think I need to close this tab so I can get some sleep tonight.

  92. ThursdaysGeek*

    On a positive note, think about this. You’ve probably heard that if you take care of your customers, they will take care of your business. But take it back further: if you take care of your employees, they will take care of your customers and your business. In other words, if your employees WANT to do the best job because you are such a great boss, they will treat your customers well and your business will thrive. Your business comes down to your employees and how you treat them.

    You wrote to Alison, so that’s a very good first step. Listen to her advice and learn how to treat your employees like adults (no yelling, of course they get some time off after working so many extra hours, with pay). It pays off for them and for you.

  93. WillowSunstar*

    The only job I ever quit in my life was at a small company. The CEO was a bully to the point I witnessed him making some people cry. HR consisted of 2 people who were buddy buddy with him and never would have been on any employee’s side. After I left, found out no local temp agency would work with them because of the abuse. It is never worth it to stay in an abusive situation. If you’re not currently the target, you will be eventually.

  94. Kara*

    Yikes!

    OP what you did was extremely abusive and unprofessional and I would have walked out, too. Actually I’d likely have packed my desk and just left – even if I wasn’t one of the people you yelled *at*.

    Aside from everything else, there are a lot of people out in the world who have had to deal with abusive relationships in their personal lives. Listening to a boss freak out, scream cuss words, and slam doors so hard they break is triggering and terrifying.

    I am respectfully and honestly (not internet snidely) suggesting that you should seek help for your anger issues.

    And I sincerely hope that you don’t fall into this category:
    https://www.askamanager.org/2024/08/lets-discuss-people-who-find-themselves-in-a-hole-and-just-keep-digging.html

  95. Joana*

    I’m massively reminded of when I worked for a sub sandwich shop chain for several months. It was the middle of the summer and the AC broke several times. Corporate happened to be there for an inspection one of the times and made us close down, telling the store owner that if/when it happened again, she had to close down again until it was fixed. I’m going out on a limb saying it was likely more about food safety/quality (all that melted cheese! All that wilted lettuce) than employee safety, but it still worked in our favor.

    Well, it happened again not two weeks later. And she refused to close. The food was going bad within an hour of us taking it out of cold storage, and we were taking turns just standing in the walk-in because it was over a hundred degrees inside. One of my coworkers who was in later caught wind and let the corporate rep know, and he called her and told her in no uncertain terms that if she didn’t close, she’d be losing her franchise license.

    I come back from a bathroom break to customers waiting to order and her absolutely screeching and crying at everyone on-shift right then about how she hates us all, demanding to know who reported her, and how she should just close down for a week, fire us all, and open again with a new crew. But she had to close. She walked out after her tantrum and we proceeded to do so.

    Surprisingly, none of us actually walked out until the next week when our paychecks were late and we suspected she was doing it to retaliate. They came in the next day and after hearing the assistant manager threaten to get someone else fired for complaining about the lateness (ffs we were minimum wage workers barely making ends meet, one day late can be make or break) I warned that coworker and walked out. She called and quit, and one of the ‘senior’ staff members (she had been there a while and was a key holder) quit as well.

    These days when I go by the place, the parking lot is empty more often than not. If OP’s business is at all customer-facing, people are going to hear about this incident and find other options.

    1. CommanderBanana*

      Also, in this age of NextDoor and Twitter, people will find out.

      A local coffee shop owner was being horrible during the early days of COVID, plus it turned out he was also sexually harassing the teenage girls he was hiring. It got to twitter and IG, got to NextDoor, and then hit the local papers. His entire staff quit. He hired new people. They quit. Locals were donating to GoFundMes for the staff that had to quit.

      He had to sell the shop to new owners because 1. he had no staff 2. all the locals were appalled by his behavior and refused to patronize his shop.

      1. wow*

        Something similar just happened in our city. A local restaurant owner was outed for being creep and abusive to employees. Now his restaurants are in danger of closing, bc no one will go to them. Serves him right.

        1. CommanderBanana*

          I was honestly so heartened by seeing how the community rallied around the workers that had to leave. They started a GoFundMe for them and the responses on NextDoor and social media were really positive.

  96. Gustavo*

    Honestly, this person shouldn’t be in management. They don’t even see that what they did was seriously abusive and think the employees are at fault for leaving. I’m shocked even one person stayed and I’m willing to bet this is normal behavior for this manager. I once worked for someone like this and I actually have PTSD from it, I wish I’d have quit much sooner.

    And the reason they cited is absolutely ridiculous for them to be mad about. Wow.

    1. Working Class Lady*

      Some people will stay out of financial necessity (and that’s a horrible situation to find yourself in).

      But I’d be surprised if those who stayed that day didn’t start sending out their resume after work that day.

  98. Raisin Walking to the Moon*

    OP, I have faith that you can get better at this. You want to do better, and that counts for so much.
    One thing I see in your letter is that your thinking is kind of jumbled- this event involved multiple people and all the actions, reactions, past history, emotions, etc. That’s normal! The trick is to analyze what parts are immediately important, and to try to ignore the unimportant parts. And that takes pratice! Lots of people who respond emotionally like you did just don’t have practice thinking analytically before they act. That’s okay, because you clearly want to be better.
    the next time you feel disrespected, irritated, or annoyed, I recommend you take a step back before you say anything and go somewhere quiet. try to list all the moving parts of the situation: the people, the actions, what you want, etc. Circle the one most important part, and then try to respond just to that.
    remember, your employees are looking up to you, and it’s your responsibility to model workplace behavior for them. try to talk and act the way you want them to behave.
    I believe in you.

  99. Helen*

    I was screamed/yelled at once many years ago about something that I had no part in. The manager started by yelling at me in the hallway on the way to their office to discuss the situation and I stopped walking, turned around and left. I went home, wrote a resignation and faxed it to main office and to the manager who yelled at me. They tried calling, I ignored it. They showed up to my house and my spouse told them to leave or they would call the police. They sent an apology letter that I shredded.

    OP if you get this worked up about a timecard/payroll/vacation issue, you should consider the advice that Alison gave and get some guidance on how to be a better manager. What you do sounds scary and I would not return to work for you.

  100. Nicole Coelho Antoun*

    WOOF. I mean, good on the boss for realizing they screwed up but still. This sounds like such a toxic place to work. Don’t be surprised, OP, if you lose those employees you yelled at.

    This isn’t the early 20th century. People refuse to be abused at work anymore.

  101. Mouse named Anon*

    OP I highly recommend seeking counseling and/or some anger management classes near you.

  102. Andy*

    Dude will never regain his credibility. Good supervisors won’t either if they let him keep his job. Dude should resign and go to therapy.

  103. Eldritch Office Worker*

    “I reminded them who they worked for”

    Listen, OP, because I think this might be the key to changing your perspective on this situation.

    If someone works for you, that means at some point you decided that *you* needed *them*, hired them, and entered into a mutually beneficial business arrangement.

    As soon as that arrangement ceases to be mutually beneficial, either party is fully within their rights to terminate the relationship. That means you can fire employees you aren’t satisfied with, and they can leave if they aren’t satisfied with you

    Keeping your employees happy – or at least content – to work for you is the only way to keep your business alive. Very basic things that employees require are physical and psychological safety. You took both of those away in one move, and they no longer felt the business relationship was to their benefit.

    If you want to stay in business, or ever manage people, you need to fundamentally change how you view the power dynamics in this relationship. Because you don’t own your employees and you can’t scare them out of their free will. Some people will need the money, but that’s only going to buy you the time it takes to get a new job. You will not be able to keep a staff if you continue this way.

  104. Mark This Confidential And Leave It Laying Around*

    No one needs your permission to quit. I think LW has a fundamental misunderstanding of what work is, what a job is, what an employer is, what an employee is. The fury is rooted in that confusion. You don’t own these people. You own a business. And yes, maybe you should close it.

  105. notagirlengineer*

    When management yells at employees, they lose the employees who have better options.

  106. Meredith*

    This comment might be helpful to OP as he/she tries to work through the anger management issue.

    There are people out there who grew up with very frequent screaming, slamming, throwing things etc. I’m one of this people. If my boss raised her voice at me or slammed a door so hard that part of it broke, I’d be a literal basket case for a few days (maybe longer) and I’d never see her the same way again. I would not be able to keep working there. It’s one of my missions in life to take better care of Meredith than anyone did for “little Meredith”. Unless I was a single mom with no prospects, I could not continue to work for you. And the pain of knowing that this might happen again would be enormous.

    Regardless of your next steps, please apologize. Do you want people to go home, curl up in a ball and sob because your actions made them re-live part of their childhood trauma?

    Hope you succeed in turning things around and making this right.

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      Honestly, and just adding this for the OP, I grew up in the safest, most loving environment imaginable and I would be terrified to return to work with a boss who slammed a door so hard it would break and yelled at people for leaving afterwards. I would be physically shaking after an encounter like this and would be scared about returning to work.

      And that’s even without it reminding me of any previous trauma. I can’t even imagine how traumatic it would be for somebody like you and I am really sorry you lived through that.

      OP, one time at work, a number of people took offence that a particular colleague was asked to cover as deputy principal during a sick leave. Nobody yelled, nobody slammed doors, nobody’s physical safety was threatened. The worst that happened was that somebody walked out of the meeting in annoyance and a couple of people argued pretty strongly that it had been unfair. There were still people who went home upset that evening, including, yes, people who had played no part in the argument and were not particularly close to either the person who was to act as deputy principal or those who felt they had been overlooked. Somebody was talking about how they had been upset for the evening. Another colleague did not come into the staffroom next day until he and I were on yard duty and he asked me had things calmed down.

      The OP seems to think that only those he actually yelled at have any reason to be upset here, but that is not the case. Anybody who heard or saw this or even heard about it now has reason to fear for their physical and emotional safety in that workplace.

      And I get that the OP has admitted that he behaved badly, but what he doesn’t seem to have thought about yet is how can he make people feel safe around him again. This will take a lot of work and it is questionable if it can ever be achieved. Once you know somebody has had a reaction like that, there may always be some wariness, but he definitely needs to apologise and probably ask people what he can do to improve things.

  107. Person from the Resume*

    LW the letter describing your actions contains descriptions of a terrible manager. You should shut the business down. Hopefully your employees who walked out do not return because people do not deserve to be yelled at, cursed at, and called names. No one deserves that; that’s not how managers get people to do the things you want. If you think that’s how people should interact with each other or it’s okay to yell, scream, and slam things, you need to seek therapy. That’s not how anyone should act, much less a boss.

    “We all use the F-word everyday” does seems to describe a very laid back, unprofessional environment. But that’s not an excuse for you yell at your employees.

    Also nearly all of your employees “had done the opposite of what [you] instructed today. ” Your business is terribly managed. Yelling doesn’t help (obviously) because if it your employees would be following your instructions.

    Let them quit and shut your business down. You are not cut out to manage anyone at this time.

    1. Person from the Resume*

      I also meant to note that this sounds terribly chaotic. I’m used to working for huge organizations. One thing about them is that have set policies about OT, PTO, and when you can leave early after working all night. It sounds like your business needs lots and lots of policies and standard operating procedures because you just tell (yell at) people about what you want them to do daily and they ignore you.

  108. Somehow I Manage*

    Maybe I’m an idiot here, but I’m really confused about the vacation/overtime part of this. If the employees had to work from 7p-11a to fix an issue and that puts them into overtime territory, you have to pay that. You say the supervisor didn’t approve the OT. Did that mean the supervisor didn’t approve vacation? This could have been handled very smoothly by noting to the employees that the time they were given to go home wasn’t going to be vacation time, but time to rest from having worked 16 hours, with overnight hours included. Though in reality, what difference does it make? If they’re taking vacation time for the balance of that workday, that’s just deducted from their vacation time bank, which is their right to use when they see fit. So it will ultimately come out in the wash. Again, maybe clarifying later that it shouldn’t have been seen as a choice – either just go home or take the rest as vacation – so it doesn’t happen again. But the outsized reaction to something that seems to be misunderstanding, miscommunication and a simply fixed clerical issue is troubling.

  109. SrehcaR*

    Eeeeh. I’m having a little PTSD moment – I had a previous boss who acted this way. I came home crying so many days because for the smallest infraction I would be yelled at, even had boxes thrown at me. It was like dealing with a drunk toddler having a tantrum. Some people are just not meant to be in charge.

  110. Somehow I Manage*

    Maybe I’m an idiot here, but I’m really confused about the vacation/overtime part of this. If the employees had to work from 7p-11a to fix an issue and that puts them into overtime territory, you have to pay that. You say the supervisor didn’t approve the OT. Did that mean the supervisor didn’t approve vacation? This could have been handled very smoothly by noting to the employees that the time they were given to go home wasn’t going to be vacation time, but time to rest from having worked 16 hours, with overnight hours included. Though in reality, what difference does it make? If they’re taking vacation time for the balance of that workday, that’s just deducted from their vacation time bank, which is their right to use when they see fit. So it will ultimately come out in the wash. Again, maybe clarifying later that it shouldn’t have been seen as a choice – either just go home or take the rest as vacation – so it doesn’t happen again. But the outsized reaction to something that seems to be misunderstanding, miscommunication and a simply fixed clerical issue is troubling.

    Ultimately, if people aren’t doing what they’re supposed to be doing, it is your job to manage that. But managing with a conversation rather than a fireworks show is going to lead to better results in the future.

    1. kiki*

      I think LW is mad about paying the 16 hours of overtime (with their day recorded as vacation) rather than 9 (if the employees took 11am-5pm unpaid). And as you pointed out, using PTO takes time out of these employees’ PTO banks, so ultimately the LW is mad about paying out the difference between the employees’ regular rate and their overtime rate for 6 hours.

      It makes the level of anger all the more ridiculous— it’s a normal housekeeping error and the difference in net pay is relatively small. These are employees who were willing to come in and work a 15 hour overnight at the drop of a hat.

      The way LW describes it “they made a choice [to go home]” makes me think they may not be humanely handling employees working emergency overtime. After 16 hours of working, especially in what sounds like an emergency capacity, employees NEED to go home.

      1. RVA Cat*

        Not only that, but the 16 hours straight should not happen! You need limits to give people relief even in emergencies. There’s a reason fires are measured in “alarms” for the number of crews responding.

  112. The Rafters*

    OP, be thankful that the door knob didn’t actually hit anyone. That would def be assault and you could have been charged w/ such. Not sure you still couldn’t be b/c obligatory, not in law enforcement. BTW, be thankful if you still have a job when all is said and done.

  113. Strawberry Snarkcake*

    OP – think about it this way, how do you respond when people are yelling at you? Are you receptive to what they’re saying, or are you tuning them out or actively thinking of ways to escape? No one likes being yelled at, no matter what the circumstances. A quiet, direct conversation is much more likely to be heard.

    If these people truly are the terrible employees you believe them to be, then let them go, but do not abuse them on the way out.

  114. Hydrates all the flasks*

    In the interest of being kind and constructive, how old is everyone in this letter? Is it a family-run business or a business with like 5 employees, and/or in a town with like 20 people, tops? Because everything in this scenario screams* “a bunch of preschoolers are playing Restaurant but their parents also let them have a smartphone and unfettered computer access for some reason.”

    I don’t want to work for preschoolers. One, super illegal. Two, super annoying. I’ve worked for verbally abusive bosses before and part of the less-fun aspects was knowing that at some point, they were going to cross the line into physically abusive (as in, maybe they slam a door so hard that part of it breaks off and hits me or another coworker). Living with that sword of Damocles was almost as bad as the constant yelling, fighting, general disrespect, etc.

    Look, the initial situation that led to this (timecard drama, availability drama, etc) sounds frustrating, as a boss. Especially because there was some kind of emergency component (since we don’t know much about the business, I am wondering about the specific “emergency”–are we talking like actual 911 emergency, “there’s a flood in town” emergency, or more like “I went too hard on LEAN staffing before and during COVID so now I have no staff to open this fancy boutique why does not want to work???????11!!!?” emergency???

    But like, you still can’t go around yelling at your employees. You just can’t. No one wants to be around people who can’t control their temper, either professionally or personally. So you need to apologize to everyone, accept that they may not come back, and do some serious soul-searching to keep this from happening again.

    And if it turns out that everyone in this farce is over the age of like, 8, I will slam a door so hard it falls off the hinges, I swear to God.

    *yes pun intended

  115. MistOrMister*

    I am very confused by what all even happened here. Some employees were on call and worked 15 hours (7pm to 11am) handling an emergency and were told they could leave early the next day but there is a discrepancy over if they should get PTO for the rest of the day they took off and/or OT for those extra hours worked?? If you have people who work on call, why is there not a policy for this? Beyond that, why is this something that would make you angry to the point of yelling at people and slamming and breaking doors? I do not understand. Why not just say whay the policy is and have people update their time sheets accordingly? Did something else happen that caused the anger and the yelling? Was the door slamming incident related to the time sheet issue? There is so much information missing here.

    Beyond all that, Alison is correct that the employees were absolutely right to walk out. There are very few people that will put up with being yelled at, and rightfully so. Also, the fact that you say you reminded them who they work for is concerning. My experience has been that the type of people who say that are the ones who will abuse and take advantage of employees and expect the employees to take it with a smile and be thankful. You cant attract or keep good talent when you treat people that way. It smacks of abuse to tell people if they leave they shouldn’t come back. Especially when the reason for them leaving is that their boss is throwing a tantrum. No one should feel obligated to stay and be subjected to such abuse.

    Maybe you don’t need the income from this business, but the fact that you are willing to shut down a company simply because you are mad at your employees is bonkers. Add to that, the glossing over of the fact that a door was slammed so hard parts flew off and almost hit someone…I will be surprised if any of the employees return. Please keep in mind that people with stick with even a bad job while looking for something else, and if you have pushed the entire office to walk out and potentially all lose their livelihood, there is a real problem with how you have been managing. Even if this was a one off, which I assume not based on how unbothered you are by everything, it was still egregious enough that just about the entire staff was made so uncomfortable they had to leave. That is a huge problem.

  116. Elsewise*

    Robert, I read your letter and your comment, and I really feel for you. As someone who struggles with anger issues sometimes, it’s not fun to feel. (It’s also not fun for other people to be around.) I get the sense that you’re really struggling right now. You need to learn some strategies to handle difficult situations better and to help take control of your emotions.

    Everyone is suggesting therapy, which I would also encourage. But there are other things you can do to take control in the meantime. Look up CBT strategies for anger. Look at lifestyle changes that could impact you, like exercising more (big fan of kickboxing to get the anger out in a healthy way). If you were impacted by any substances like medications, caffeine, or alcohol during this instance, talk to your doctor about weaning yourself off. Take up journaling so you can get your thoughts out and in order before interacting with others, and practice saying “I need a minute to process” before you react. And look at sources of stress in your life that you can eliminate, whether it means stepping down as owner of your company or quitting doomscrolling on Twitter. No matter what you think about yourself, you CAN change. You don’t have to feel this way.

    1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      And, as another commenter pointed out, if this is a shift for you, get a check-up to see if there’s anything physically going on that might be affecting your behaviour or mental state.

      1. NotBatman*

        Yes! For example, was OP missing several hours of sleep because of the recent emergency? If so, that could easily be a factor in a loss of self-control. It doesn’t excuse the behavior, but it could help explain. And could be something to watch out for to make sure that this never happens again.

  117. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

    This is going to be a lengthy comment but I genuinely want to help.

    First off, you’re going to have to admit to yourself that you were wrong and behaved violently. No excuses. That’s the first step and by far the most important one because literally everything else hinges on this.

    Then you need to get help. Again, I’m coming from a place of genuine care because once upon a long time I was that nasty piece of work who hurt people deliberately. It’s taken a LONG time of psychiatric help and medications to get to where I am now.

    Accept that apologies may be rejected and that’s not something that you can change. To people you’ve deeply hurt or terrified the best thing you can do sometimes is never darken their doorstep again. This might even mean moving jobs/houses.

    There is nothing you can do to stop people talking among themselves about how you acted and how it made them feel. A genuine ‘I see that was out of line and I’m committed to getting professional help for this’ may tone it down but you have to mean it.

    Again I stress the professional help here. You need an unbiased person to go through why you feel the need to be so in control of everything and what causes you to lose your temper.

    Your staff are probably not coming back and you’ll have a reputation quickly spreading of being dangerous. So, you’re probably going to ask ‘why should I bother with all this work and self reflection stuff if it won’t fix this?’

    Because it’ll be hard work but you’ll find the rest of your life will be less stressful. You’ll be more successful at a lot of things. People will be willing to go the extra mile to help you.

    Your present may be a wreck, but I want you to have a successful future.

    2. RVA Cat*

      All of this.
      Closing or selling the business sounds like the only way to “fix this”. The status quo is hurting everyone including the OP.

  118. Alex*

    As a manager, you need to step back and ask yourself why you aren’t getting the performance you want out of your employees.

    You say that people were not doing what you told them to. Why is that? Did they not understand what you wanted? Did they think you were wrong in your assessment and did what they thought was correct? Are they just trying to piss you off? Are you having conversations about what is happening?

    We all lose our temper sometimes. But there is an element in your letter that seems to miss the nuance of getting what you need out of people. Managing isn’t 1. Tell people what to do 2. Get angry when they don’t do it and tell them to do it louder 3. Get even angrier and louder when that doesn’t work.

    It is unlikely that these workers will return. No one wants to be yelled at, and if they walked out, I suspect maybe it wasn’t the first time that they were scared of you at work. But hopefully you can hire new people and work WITH them to get what you need out of them, rather than trying to manage by force.

    1. Green great dragon*

      Yes. Others have covered the yelling part, but something’s gone badly wrong much earlier if multiple employees aren’t doing what you tell them.

      Either your employees have good reason to do something different and you’re not listening to them, or they need more info/better process/more training, or you should have started a PIP/firing process long before now.

  119. BH*

    I just feel awful for that one employee who stayed. There’s nothing worse than feeling trapped in a toxic work environment.

  120. Susannah*

    LW, I’m going to try to be kind, here, and not pile on to all the (warranted) comments about how badly you’ve behaved with the staff.

    Have you thought – I mean, really seriously? – about whether this is the right role for you? Not everyone can deal with management, or even something where you have to deal with a variety of different personalities. It really isn’t for everyone; it’s clearly not for someone with a short fuse.

    And look, I’m a former daily newspaper reporter, so I’m REALLY used to people screaming and swearing and generally getting flipped out on deadline. One of the differences is – our editors expected us to behave sometimes in the same edgy (to use a euphemism here) way they did. It wasn’t a situation where The Boss yelled and The Employees cowered and complied.

    You might not be a bad person! You might just be very ill-suited for this kind of position. You said you were frustrated enough to consider closing the business. Seriously – maybe do that. It genuinely might be better for everyone, including you.

  121. Feeling Feline*

    Therapy. Seriously, you will be a happier person too, on top of being a better boss. The level of response you described here sounds like so much underlying unaddressed issues. This isn’t normal.

  122. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

    Anger can be a symptom of depression. There are also a wide range of other mental health issues that can express themselves with anger. It is not ok to be this full of rage in a workplace environment. LW, please take time to step away and get some assistance so that you’re not destroying your health, your business, and the wellbeing of the people around you.

  123. Brain the Brian*

    TBH, this letter is a reminder of exactly why I don’t ever want to go into management. I have a short temper that seems resistant to all attempts at reining it in, and I would feel awful if I lost it at employees. Even my best attempts at kindly excusing myself when I feel myself getting angry usually have a vicious tone to them.

    I hate to say it, LW, but you may really need to close the business and find something lower stress where your temper has less of an effect on people’s livelihoods.

  124. T'Cael Zaanidor Kilyle*

    OP, the ONE concrete example you gave of an employee doing something “wrong” was writing “Vacation” on their timecards when they went home after dealing with a 16-hour emergency. My impression is that you think they were expecting to be paid for a normal workday the following day that they went home, in addition to their overtime for the emergency — but do you even know that’s the case? The whole thing could easily have been a misunderstanding about what to write down. (Frankly I’m having a little bit of trouble parsing everything that happened here.)

    I really think that you need to figure out your difficulty handling anger in a constructive way, and NOT be attempting to actively manage people until you’ve done so. I’m not surprised that the employees walked out. This is not an acceptable way to treat them — even less so, given how minuscule the “provocation” was.

  125. ijustworkhere*

    Thank you Allison for being direct and forthright. This person does not need to be managing people right now. I hope they will take some time to think about what happened and understand why their behavior was so inappropriate.

    And–to the LW— perhaps management is not for you. It’s a difficult role and a lot of people are not well suited to it. I think at some level you must know this, or you would not have written to Allison for advice.

  126. Hydrates all the flasks*

    And the employee who was nearly hit by the flying piece of door is a brand new employee! The LW doesn’t say how new she is (or that she was part of the crew they yelled at, AFAIK) but like can you imagine being her???? WTF. I feel like that part got buried in the sheer craziness of this letter.

  127. Having a Scrummy Week*

    Well…the most you can do now is sit down any remaining members of your team, give an honest apology for your actions, and provide concrete steps for how you are working to improve your behavior. Also, give them a hierarchy of who they can go to with any current or future concerns (about you or otherwise).

  128. Fluff*

    Oof – OP there is a lot to unpack here. If you really want to go deep, please breathe and think.

    Part I: anger and yelling.

    1. You are starting to realize a problem with losing control like that. “I know I messed up.” This is the first step.

    2. Now what is the problem? Define it. Write down a few problems and make a list.

    3. Look at the list and remove anything that is NOT under your control. You want to look at things the only you control. From your letter you own: yelled, cussed, lost my temper. Out of your control is [[everyone acting the way they want]] [[ x talking BS]] [[employees left early]].

    Reread all the I-control list. Work on improving this. For the out-of-your-control list -> throw
    everything on that list out. It is not relevant to YOU learning to recognize anger and your response.

    Change the story – you are a passenger on a plane. Your pilot just got super pissed at her co-pilot for messing with the schedule and she loses it which messes with the rudder (foot control). Everyone on that plane is scared, feeling the turbulence, and no one knows if they are going to survive or not. You expect your pilots to ALWAYS control their outbursts and fly safe. This is a minimum. They are not perfect and they are always safe. Work to you being that pilot. Fly safe, you can have some gentle ups and downs, and overall be steady. Work to that.

    Part II: the role of leader or manager with norms in a work place. For this aspect, you are learning the role of people in the professional (Pay for labor) relationships. These relationships seem confusion for you. Employees are not beneath their managers. They are not indentured servants. Reassess and learn those relationships and hierarchies. Then you learn on leading and managing – which is a whole skill set.

    Another thing to consider – where did you learn this behavior? Why do you think it is normal to speak and treat people like you did? Please consider coaching, therapy. Your employees deserve it. And guess what, you probably do too. This is hard work and takes time. It is worth it.

  129. Sneaky Squirrel*

    The employees’ safety comes first before anything else. If LW is at the point of slamming doors so hard that the facing is flying off and swearing at their staff, they’re not too far from getting physically violent. The time to act isn’t after an escalation, it’s before. LW’s emotions were out of control and LW needs anger management counseling immediately as well as to be removed from any interactions with employees where their emotions cannot be controlled 100%. If that means a trusted partner to have oversight over the business while LW steps out, then that’s what it takes.

    No situations get resolved through door slamming and running a company through fear is a surefire way to drive a company to the ground. A more productive use of LW’s time would have been focusing on ensuring that their staff are receiving the proper instruction on how handle their timesheets, determining a strategy to increase training effectiveness, and ensuring their policies are well documented.

    LW is lucky if any of their employees come back because I would be out of there.

    1. Working Class Lady*

      Guarantee that those who came back are only there until they can get a paycheck lined up elsewhere.

  130. Ellena*

    I wish I had thought of walking out when my abusive boss was yelling. I admire those guys (if course it’s much easier to walk out as a group than being the only one being yelled at). OP doesn’t seem sorry and that’s not okay.

  131. Fluff*

    OP – another exercise to try.

    Pretend your best friend calls you and describes his boss. Things were fine after he pulled a long weekend and worked overtime. His boss suddenly lost it and yelled and broke a stapler in the office. Your friend was freaked out. His boss also followed him out to his car when he was leaving and yelled at him some more and then told him to not come back.

    How would you console him?
    How do you answer him when he asks “OP,, I need to keep this job, but I don’t know what to do? My boss just flipped out. He threw a stapler and broke my family picture. He followed me to my car f bombing me.”

    What advice would you give your bestie?

  132. Ship Talker*

    I’d have a really difficult time staying with an employer who did this. I grew up with parents who behaved this way. I won’t tolerate it as an adult.

    1. Working Class Lady*

      Yep. Same here.
      Took me some time to learn that I didn’t actually need to tolerate this sort of behavior from others since I grew up with it, too.

  133. Unkempt Flatware*

    Close your business and get intensive help. The way you wrote this even shows a serious lack of emotional intelligence to the point where you have no business in management at all. This level of anger only leads to an early grave. Please stop now and get help.

  134. i drink too much coffee*

    I used to manage a restaurant one night a week (I served/bartended the rest of the time) and on one of my first shifts, all hell broke loose. It was no one’s fault; we just had WAY TOO MANY people come in unexpectedly for the staff we had on hand. For the record, I had no control over the schedule haha.

    A newer server took food from the window while I was operating the window line (which was a big no no there; if a manager is at the window, no one touches anything, both for safety and for making sure orders come out correct) and I yelled at her to put it back and not touch anything. It was a very heat of the moment, super stressed second.

    I pulled her aside once the rush died down and things were calm again and told her that while that rule is in place for a reason and she does need to follow it, my reaction was unacceptable and I should not talk to her or any other servers that way and I fully apologize for that.

    I remember that day frequently when I feel like I’m losing my cool! Step away, calm down first.

  135. Timothy*

    I sing with a men’s chorus, and we would occasionally get coached by folks who would fly in. Some of them were great, and really pushed us to get better. One of them yelled at us. I don’t like being yelled at — I got enough of that from my late mother when I was a kid, and I was in my mid-forties by then. Never again.

    Anyway, after the second time being coached (and yelled at) by this guy, I decided that if he ever came back, I’d be sick that day, or busy washing my hair. And if that meant I couldn’t sing with the group any more, so be it. I shared my concerns with a couple of other guys, and they agreed.

    He never came back to coach us. Good thing. I would have walked.

    This person needs to get some counseling that includes anger management, stat.

  136. Crystal Claire*

    LW, at this point, you will need to accept that your former employees are never going to come back. Once they tell everyone what you are really like, your business is going to go downhill. All of this is on you. You need to seek professional help with your temper and take classes on being a good manager. Otherwise, no one will want to work with you. I really hope you have learned your lesson here.

  137. Seven If You Count Bad John*

    The part that sticks out to me is the repeated “they did the opposite of what I asked” and “they did what they wanted and not what I said to”. That tells me there’s a problem with either how OP is delivering information (so it’s easily misconstrued or ambiguous), or else the instructions OP is giving are simply impossible to follow, so the employee has to do their best to comply with the intent of the instruction, or with the law, or with basic humanity.

    Sure, you get the occasional oppositional defiant, but in general, if *multiple people* are “doing what they want” or “the opposite”, that’s not a them problem.

    2. Unkempt Flatware*

      I once had a boss constantly claim to his own bosses that he told us to do something and we just simply didn’t do the thing. Except he not once gave us any direction. Instead, he started a weird game of telephone where he’d tell someone to tell someone to tell someone the thing. Then couldn’t understand why the message wasn’t delivered correctly.

    3. Festively Dressed Earl*

      I thought the same thing. The second thing Robert needs to learn after emotional regulation is how to check for understanding effectively. Even if he shutters the business, clear and open communication will lessen his frustrations personally and professionally going forward.

  138. Roscoe da Cat*

    Not sure if this will help the OP but here is how this looks from the other side. I was young and reporting to two different people who had offices on opposite sides of a narrow hall. Well, they had gotten their wires crossed when it came to my work and were screaming at each other over my head (I was a foot and half shorter than both of them). I had no idea what to do and no where to go, when our grandboss came purposely down the hall and told them both to go to his office immediately. He then turned to me and escorted me to a third manager’s office, told her to have me tell her what happened and then to send me home for the rest of the day. He then told me that he was very sorry that had happened and it was unacceptable.

    I was terrified and incredibly upset. The third manager wound up driving me home to make sure I was OK and I was immediately removed from both of the original managers and they both apologized. My grand boss checked in with me several times in the next few weeks to make sure I was OK.

  139. Mob Boss Rob Moss*

    Here’s the thing. Do you yell at your friends? Random people at the grocery store? Law enforcement peeps at a 4 way n0n-working stoplight? At a swap meet? At a coffee klatch? I’m guessing not. So doing it to people who work for you is very much a purposeful choice you are making – you’re saying it’s ok to be abusive and violent – but just to your employees? Also, I grew up in a household where yelling was the norm – yelling is violence, just not physical. And because I grew up in such a household it wasn’t until my boss, when i was in my early thirties, mentioned that yelling is not an appropriate form of communicating. She was right. Sometimes we’re used to things and it makes it ok in our mind because we grew up that way, were taught that, whatever, but that doesn’t mean the rest of the world deserves to suffer from our lack of knowledge or inability to control emotions.

    1. RVA Cat*

      100% this! Too many of us grew up in “yelling families” not realizing how abusive and terrifying it can be. The fact the OP slammed the door so hard it *broke* means they escalated into violence against objects. Everybody left because the next step was throwing hands.

    2. CommanderBanana*

      ^^ This. Something tells me the LW can control his/her behavior when they have to.

      Also, seconding that yelling is violence. There is a huge difference between having a boisterous family and having family members that yell at you.

      1. allathian*

        Yes, this. A caveat, though, voices raised in anger at other people can make you react as if they were raised at you. Just ask any kid whose parents “stay married for the kids” and whose dearest wish is that they’d get divorced already so they’d no longer have to listen to the constant fights, even when those fights don’t always involve the kids at all. (Of course, days, weeks, or months of angry silence, with the kids in the worst case acting as go-betweens for parents who refuse to talk to each other, can be just as damaging to the kids as the yellling would be).

        I don’t remember my parents fighting much until my sister and I were in our early teens. Apparently their relationship hit a particularly rough patch then, and voices were raised in our household. They rarely shouted at my sister and me, but I found the atmosphere oppressive at times. My sister reacted by minimizing the time she spent at home, I reacted by staying in the room I shared with her and listening to my Walkman loudly enough that I couldn’t hear them. I don’t remember wishing that they’d get a divorce, but I do remember wishing that they’d stop fighting.

        I was a pretty good teenager and never caused any trouble. My major rebellion was when I for a few months at 14 didn’t want to be seen in public with my parents. My dad commented on it once but both of them accepted it as me being a teenager, and a few months later the whole thing got old. Another was that I wanted to wear makeup when I’d never seen my mom wear it (I no longer wear it, either), although I waited to ask until I could honestly say that all the girls in my class wore makeup (at 15).

        A part of that was my natural inclination and our parents supporting us in the sense that they never infantilized us and that they found joy in making themselves unnecessary and teaching us to be independent. But I’ve started to suspect that a part of it was not wanting to bother my parents and risk their anger being directed at me instead.

        You can be noisy and boisterous without anger being a constant part of the mix.

  140. Anonny*

    Quit your job. Get something low stress where you’re not in charge to pay the bills. And then take yourself to THERAPY. Once you’ve got some good mental tools in your tackle box, take some management classes at a local college. Then, MAYBE, you can go back to whatever it is you do.

    I really hope all your employees find something stable and well paying, and heal from whatever it is you thought you were doing.

  141. Sparkles McFadden*

    Hello Robert. I would like to give you credit for writing in to ask for help and for actually interacting in the comments, but I am pretty sure you came here looking for validation. You want someone else to say that your anger is justified (and your actions are forgivable) because you wouldn’t be getting angry if people were doing what you’ve told them to do. I am confident that you will not read those words on this site.

    I’ll be blunt here and say that if running a business gets you that angry, you should not be running a business or be in a situation where you have any power over other humans. Getting so angry that you yell at people and break things is not normal and you need help to address that. The people I know who get angry enough to scream at people and break things are people who have no coping skills. They scream, yell and threaten people because they don’t know what else to do. Bullying people seems to get them what they want, and scaring other people makes them feel powerful, so that’s what they do. Ultimately, the angry folks lose everything. They lose their jobs, or get sued, or die of a massive coronary during a temper tantrum. I cannot imagine that the rest of your life is sunshine, rainbows and puppies. Get help as soon as you can.

  142. LifeisShort*

    The only job I ever quit w/o the next thing setup was in a medium sized business where I worked for the owner’s child. It was an unholy mess of us being her toys to show why she should take over. I attempted to stay through my intern’s time, but when she started having her spouse ask questions to mutual friends about me I quit on the spot. Then I was the one who went to therapy (specifically one who did a lot with workplace things), thankfully I only needed a few sessions to learn that I wasn’t in the wrong about those boundaries. I even got a bit of a tune up on some other things mentally, I think everyone should have a therapist… She still had me do the 5 minute level time sheet on my way out the door. Dropping that laptop off and getting a coffee on the walk home was so liberating. Found a better job in just a few weeks, and got some household projects done, and quality spent time with my family while I had the gap.

  143. Middle Name Jane*

    This is among the most disturbing letters I’ve ever read here, and I’ve been reading AAM for over 10 years. If the LW behaves this way at work, I’m horrified to think how they might behave at home. I hope the LW will get counseling for anger management, but I’m not optimistic since they kept trying to justify their actions.

  144. Working Class Lady*

    It’s concerning that there is no evidence of remorse in this letter.

    I expected the question to be along the lines of,
    “How to apologize or come back from this?” or asking for better management techniques or something like that.

    Perhaps LW should step away from their management role for a time until they learn how to appropriately handle their own emotions. This is inappropriate behavior – period – and creates a hostile environment.

    If your employees aren’t following instructions, you address that with them and find out what the cause is – but not this. Never, ever this.

  146. Nat20*

    You’re allowed to be internally frustrated when employees do something incorrectly or against your instructions — but you control that frustration, provide them clear, calm instruction for what you need them to change, and take whatever appropriate action you need to fix the problem itself. Everything you did here is the exact opposite of what good management looks like.

    Take a step back and consider why two employees incorrectly marking time off on their timesheets — a frustrating discrepancy for a manager and worth addressing, sure, but not an unforgivably grevious misstep even if it was intentional — made you so violently angry you *broke a door*. That’s not anywhere close to acceptable behavior nor a suitable reaction to the problem, and your employees were 100% right not to put up with it.

    1. Elbe*

      Agreed.

      If anything, it sounds like a miscommunication. If they were just told “you can go home” they may have assumed it was vacation as a thank-you for working so many hours. When employees go above and beyond, it’s not uncommon for an employer to give them a little gift on top of their contractual pay. I don’t see any reason why this couldn’t be cleared up in a respectful way.

      The LW seems to be assuming malicious intent, but I don’t see any evidence of that. If these employees have paid PTO, the LW is going to be paying for those days regardless of when they are taken. It’s part of their compensation. And everyone agreed that the employees didn’t have to work the rest of that day. So the miscommunication just seems to be “I thought I could take a half-day of vacation now” vs. “I will take my vacation at a pre-arranged time.” And that seems really minor to me. If anything, it benefits the LW because they are combining their PTO with time they were already getting off of work, so they will be on vacation less in the months to come.

      The bottom line here is that the miscommunication seems really minor and the LW’s response was so over-the-top it’s abusive. This is really terrible behavior that many employees would no tolerate.

  147. GymManager*

    LW, just remember that a bad day for you can turn into a core memory for one of your employees. When I was fresh out of college, I had a manager who once threw a jar of pencils at a wall because she was frustrated. Her anger wasn’t even directed at me, but I STILL replay that event in my head as a current-day middle manager—and I’m almost 30 now!

  148. Working Class Lady*

    Some people will stay out of financial necessity (and that’s a horrible situation to find yourself in).

    But I’d be surprised if those who stayed that day didn’t start sending out their resume after work that day.

  149. AC36*

    I agree with Allison and what many have said here, so I won’t belabor that. On a side note, I had a landlord once swear at me during an argument where he said I was responsible for a tree/shrubbery (when in the contract, it said he was). I asked him not to use profanity and he says, ‘Well, everyone swears and on TV they swear’. Sigh…it’s one thing to use profanity when people are casually talking with each other, but a whole other issue in a professional setting, especially if one is senior to the others. I hope LW learns a lesson and considers counseling or anger management, because none of this was OK. I would have absolutely left and expected to be paid for the entire day.

    I’ve also been yelled at by my boss, and I keep a log of issues like that for any issues in the future.

    LW, best of luck in the future. I hope this is a turning point for you.

  150. Prorata*

    It’s next to impossible to unburn a burnt bridge.

    Your bridge is well and truly burned.

    Your team probably won’t come back; if they do, I have doubts whether they will be even remotely engaged in the job to be done…..and I can’t blame them for not returning or not being engaged.

    Close your business; hold a fire sale, and hopefully you can get a bit out of the remains. Then, if you are smart, leave town and never, ever come back…..because your reputation is gone, and rebuilding it there probably won’t happen.

  151. learnedthehardway*

    I don’t get the rage response – I really don’t. OP, you need help. Find a therapist and figure out what is going on with you. Your response was irrational and counter-productive in every possible way.

    I think that what happened is that your employees worked a lot of overtime (into the early hours of the morning_, and then the next day, their supervisor told them they could leave at 11 AM. Instead of logging their work time as overtime, they logged the hours they got to take off as vacation? Or did they log their overtime and then also try to take a half-day of vacation?

    For the record, the correct response would have been to tell your payroll clerk that the workers should have been paid their overtime hours, and that their vacation hours should have been denied. You should have calmly told the workers that you were paying their overtime ours but that they can’t call their time off today vacation because it doesn’t work that way – vacation has to be pre-approved, and they were getting overtime hours for the extra hours worked. If you disagreed with the supervisor’s choice to let the workers off early, you should have CALMLY discussed this with the supervisor (for the record though, it sounds like the supervisor’s decision was correct – employees who have worked 16 hours straight need rest). Sounds like everyone could have used a little education on how vacation hours work.

    Honestly, it doesn’t matter whether your employees were trying to pull a fast one or were genuinely confused or if they thought they were doing you a favour by logging their hours as vacation (at their usual wage rates) instead of overtime (at time and a half or whatever the overtime rate is). You need to deal with the facts, and not ascribe intentions to people.

    Is it stressful that workers may have tried to pull a fast one by claiming vacation hours to which they were not entitled – sure.

  152. dogwoodblossom*

    Not really relevant, but is anybody else worried about the one employee who didn’t walk out? Like, please respect yourself enough to get out of there!

    1. Cmdrshprd*

      Eh it might not be a question of not respecting themselves but rather being in a financial situation that they can’t go anytime without pay.

      I am fortunately in a position now that I could walk out in a situation like this and be okay for a little bit. But in the past I was absolutely in situations that I would not have been able to walk out because I still needed to keep working to keep a roof over my head and food on the table. I would be job searching immediately but could not walk out.

    2. Prorata*

      I’m not so worried about the one who stayed, I’d be worried about what they are up to…Not advocating sabotage, but it would be funny if the network went down hard, or if backups were corrupted, or if receivables all went away all of a sudden.

      LW may be about to find out how resilient their IT system really is.

  153. Elizabeth West*

    Oh dear.

    OP, Alison is right; this was not the way to handle it. I understand getting frustrated, but no one should be treated that way, including you — if one of your employees screamed at you and slammed your door, you’d understandably fire them, wouldn’t you?

    Well I’m afraid they just fired you as their boss.

    If you want to keep things going, you will need to do some hard thinking about how you manage and seriously consider apologizing AND THEN NEVER DOING THIS AGAIN TO ANYONE EVER.

    Good luck.

  154. essie*

    My cousin married a woman who was prone to yelling and losing her temper. We were all shocked to learn that she managed her own small business.
    We were not shocked when, less than two years later, she no longer had her business. She quite literally ran out of employees.

    1. Meep*

      My former boss could only keep a job for four years max because of her behavior. (And admittedly, my aunt lasts an average of 4 months due to hers.) Both had to open their own businesses, sadly, just to hold down a job of some sort. Seems common.

      1. Elbe*

        It’s wild that people like this would rather take the financial risk that comes with opening a business (when you can’t even hold down a job) rather than just go to therapy/anger management. Denial is quite the drug, I guess.

        1. Meep*

          Well when I am perfect and everyone else is the problem – working with a customer short-term is a heck of a lot easier than dealing with a coworker long-term.

  155. Meep*

    Yikes! Refuses to pay them overtime or PTO for working overtime and then gets mad when they take PTO. This is definitely a “the beatings shall continue until morale improves” workplace!

  157. Rex Libris*

    OP, I don’t really have words to explain how beyond unacceptable the behavior described is, but you really need to get your head around that. If a supervisor I managed acted like this, I’d fire them immediately and have them escorted from the building.

    It’s not a “the employees made mistakes and I got frustrated” problem. It’s a “major lack of self-control, self-discipline, and emotional intelligence” problem. Please, please get yourself into therapy and then some extensive management and leadership training.

  158. Jonathan MacKay*

    Reminds me of my last day at my previous job.

    We were unloading a container, and I made a few mistakes in how it was supposed to be arranged, leading to my ‘boss’ (only two of us working there!) having a freakout, throwing the boxes of cork around aggressively, and a pointless argument over whatever the heck a “Twostepper” was… ((Step-stool….. it was a two-step, stepstool!))

    I commented, “I’m starting to think that maybe I should consider today to be my last day” out of frustration, and it was taken as an immediate resignation, leading me to writing a resignation letter – UNDER SUPERVISION – (Such that I was told what to write!) and getting out of there before noon.

    The funny thing is – I had a weird sense while packing my lunch that morning of “I’m not going to need this today.”

    Now I’m managing a warehouse (okay, it is only me working in the warehouse – but it’s still warehouse management!), and am starting to look for work in HR for the next year.

  159. Mango Freak*

    So you have 6 employees. All of them worked an emergency overnight shift. 2 of them did a timecard thing you didn’t like; 2 of them did some other unspecified thing you didn’t like; 2 of them did nothing wrong. You subjected all of them to screaming and door-slamming. 5 of them left.

    All 6 have a group chat, without you, that you’re somehow seeing now?

    Trying to nail down the basics here.

  160. Coverage Associate*

    One thing I didn’t see addressed, though I didn’t make it through all the comments: I get the sense that OP feels OP is managing the business for the sake of the employees. I would point to the reaction when they started to walk out, and closing the business seems expressed somewhat like a threat.
    But if OP can decide to close the business, I assume OP is the owner or in some other position where OP benefits in line with the business’s success. So, yeah, the employees work for OP, not for themselves, but OP gets the profit from their work. Maybe OP feels OP isn’t getting enough profit, but that’s on OP as the manager and owner.
    So I might add a meeting with a financial advisor to the advice. My mother also owns a small business, and is considering closing it and retiring. The financial advisor helps her understand how much revenue she needs in order to afford fixed costs like rent and the bare minimum staff, and how much additional revenue for comfortable staffing, etc., so she can understand how hard she has to work to make a certain profit. Eventually, the effort/money balance will shift, and she’ll retire, laying off her last 1 or 2 employees. But having hard numbers in the meantime has been helpful.

  161. Daria grace*

    I know therapy will have been suggested a bunch of time but if you have access I’d encourage to spend extra time there looking at patterns in the rest of your life too. If you’re acting this wildly out of line at work, chances are you’re also behaving in ways that damage your non-work relationships

  162. Chili*

    There’s a world of difference using the f word around people (“We’re so fucking busy!”) and directing it at someone (“Go duck yourself!”). I don’t know which type OP used but it was a bad call when he’s already screaming.

  163. Manglement Survivor*

    I had a boss once who was going through some personal issues and was grouchy. One day she was out of the office and her boss asked me to give her some reports, which I did. When my boss returned and found out, she was very angry and yelled a bunch at me. Her final yell was, if people aren’t going to listen to what I want, I’m leaving! and she marched out the door for the rest of the day.
    That evening she showed up at my front door with a bottle of Bailey’s Irish cream and a half assed apology. I loved the Baileys, but I also started applying for other jobs and got one a few months later.

  164. Shazam*

    I left my c-suite position because the CEO chose to yell at me a second time six months after I told him that was unacceptable to me. I walked and now he is in deep doodoo as no one else will replace me. Sure I have to explain why I left on short (read no) notice but it hasn’t been an issue moving forward because people get it.

    I’m currently contracting in a role where they have been courting me to come in full time in an executive role. After watching the head scream at two people who were just “messengers” I will be passing on that offer and moving on.

    Amazing that people are losing good workers to people who think toddler tantrums are an adult communication skill.

  165. Frustration Nation*

    I’ve had a few bosses and colleagues like this in TV production, where most of the companies I’ve worked for were small businesses run by people with no business training or experience whatsoever. Also, I grew up in an abusive home, so for many, many years (pre-therapy) I just stood there and took it, because I already knew how. I had one boss who used to yell at all of us and cuss us out regularly, and encouraged others in the company to do so as well, so anyone technically above you could do so at any point with no ramifications. He was an absolute tyrant, and was eventually busted for keeping his employees in the office when the pandemic started (he insisted they were essential workers, but they made TV shows for the History channel, not the nightly news). Additionally, all of his shows were over budget, over schedule, and flailing for the finish line. He was just a lousy manager, not some tortured genius, as some in the company kept trying to tell me. As others have pointed out, my guess is this is not the only place OP is failing as a manager. I’ve been unemployed since last November, and this job market is dreadful, but OP, no one needs a job so badly that they deserve your cruelty and incompetence. I’m sure you’re struggling these days, as all small business owners are, but that is your responsibility to cope with, not theirs. It’s your job to create a safe, respectful work environment, and if you can’t, then bring someone in who can.

  166. DJ*

    I’d walk out too not only to set a boundary but out of fear of being injured if I stayed.
    Hoping some of these employees also write to Ask a Manager!
    Keen to hear updates!

  167. AJ*

    I just want to say, Alison, that reading your advice to managers really helps me when I’m parenting my children, especially the teenagers. I can follow your advice to explain expectations, lay out consequences, and basically treat them like an employee I am mentoring in the role of “semi-dependently functioning human.”

  168. Lurker*

    I think Alison covered it all in her answer, but I just wanted to add OP that yelling did not get you what you wanted. I know that when we’re angry we’re not thinking rationally, but in this instance yelling and screaming profanities did *not* fix the issues you were upset about. It may help to remind yourself this the next time you get mad-use some coping strategies to calm down then focus on what will actually solve the problem you’re having. Yelling, screaming and cursing NEVER work out in your favor. Truly wishing you luck OP

  169. LibraryAnne*

    Hey, OP! I’m sure you’ve taken a few ego hits today. But I just wanted to give you an idea of how to move forward effectively in general. You may have heard that it’s better to express your anger, vent it. But generally, studies show that doing activities that reduce a physical “hyped up” feeling are actually more effective at reducing anger overall: https://www.sciencealert.com/venting-doesnt-reduce-anger-but-something-else-does-study-says

    Best of luck at moving forward, whatever that looks like.

  170. Ess Ess*

    To be blunt, unless you are yelling because someone is actively in danger at that point, you have ZERO business yelling and cursing at work.
    You must treat coworkers and employees civilly and professionally. If you do not like something that someone is doing, you have a calm discussion about it. From your letter, they followed the directions of their supervisor. It is inexcusable to punish them for following their supervisor’s directions. If you do not like what they were told to do, you have a CALM discussion with the supervisor to ensure that it does not happen again if the supervisor was wrong, or you possibly think about whether the supervisor might have been right in that circumstance.

    I’m also confused about your description of the overtime. You say they worked 16 hours overnight when they were called in for an emergency. Then you say that the supervisor did not authorize the overtime. If they were called in, that means they were authorized to work and so they are owed that overtime. You say they shouldn’t put in for vacation for their regular shift that day. What did you expect for them to do since they can’t just stay and work the next 8 hours? Did you expect them to just not work and expect 8 of the on-call hours to be comp time instead of OT pay? If so, the FLSA says that comp time must be give at 1.5 times the hours worked. It also says that comp time must be prearranged before the work occurs so you can’t just retroactively tell them to just not work the next shift to make up for the hours worked. It sounds like the supervisor did the legal thing, and you owe them a thank you for following labor laws.

  171. KT*

    Please get therapy.

    But, also, please step down from any position managing people. No one deserves this.

  172. The Unionizer Bunny*

    Personal thresholds for a spontaneous walkout vary. Getting five out of six people feels unusual – had any of them walked out on a previous occasion? Had you instituted a rule against walkouts (not doing it without permission) or were you not expecting it at all? (It’s possible they were expecting it. Your prior behavior may have led them to all discuss the matter, and decide that they would stick around to support each other until it crossed a line, at which point they would all leave together.)

    I’m getting a strong sense of “they did things to provoke me”. I take from “I did not say anything discriminatory” that you are conscious of laws that limit employer actions and think you stayed within those lines. I’d like you to know that one of the laws limiting employer actions, the NLRA, has regularly been interpreted as addressing “provocation” specifically: it limits employers who provoke employees. The government prevents employers who harass an employee until that employee “snaps” (as you did – yelling/cussing) from justifying discipline/firing; it’s recognized as abusing the employer’s power/authority to manufacture an excuse instead of admit to their true motives. This only applies to situations where the employee did something the NLRA cares about, but I want you to understand that, when it comes to the law, there is a presumption that you (as the employer) have greater power/authority and it is the employees who need protection from you.

    I’m guessing that, like most employers, you require your employees to do the work first and then you pay them later? We aren’t living in the feudal era anymore where you would give someone their month’s wages in advance – at any given moment, your employees have done work for you which you still haven’t paid them for.

    You owe them.

    They can walk out whenever they want, and you still owe them for all the time they worked. They have no duty to obey your desire to get more work from them if the terms of that exchange are no longer acceptable to them.

    Workers are in the labor market, selling time/output but not souls or lives. Workers are independent agents, not wholly-owned subsidiaries. Yours probably applied to several jobs, and accepted the first offer because employers are fungible, you aren’t anything fancy and your employees are probably evaluating things like “boss quality” just as consumers evaluate “product quality”. It’s the whole package, not just “money”, that matters. And just like most employees are skilled at one job, most employers are good at one part of being a boss.

    There are a lot of skills in that package. Larger companies can afford to have multiple managers, this makes it easier to find someone with the right skills for each position. It sounds like you’ve been trying to do most of the work yourself, a supervisor to help, but really you need to assess what you’re good at. If you can’t find someone to outsource necessary work to, then you aren’t ready to expand your business yet.

    Try distinguishing between an owner and a manager. You can own the company and still be doing the work yourself. You might hire a janitor to keep everything clean so you don’t have to do that yourself. Or a nutritionist/chef to make your meals for you and remind you to eat. Or an administrative assistant to set up appointments and keep you on schedule. Did you start out as the breadwinner and then find yourself taking care of all the managerial tasks to enable everyone else to help you with the work, or did you start out as a person with money who wanted to invest in employees and create a business? If the latter, your contribution is “investor” and you might try more of a passive-participation model. If the former, take a step back from running the business and look for people who can help you focus on the work.

    If you need to stay in charge, look into work-from-home. There isn’t much you can do to physically intimidate people if your presence in the workplace is a screen with adjustable volume that they can, in a pinch, turn off. It’s difficult to keep an eye on people from a distance, but plenty of office workers have been working remotely through the pandemic and they didn’t have even one supervisor in their home office keeping an eye on them. Work from home or from a mobile office (driving around to meet potential clients). Actually, avoid the vehicle for now, until you know the anger won’t be an issue again; you don’t want to be on the road (operating a deadly machine) with distracting levels of rage.

    For the overtime vs vacation I’ve read the letter, and your comment, a few times; I’ve also read many other comments guessing at what happened there; I’m going to venture my own guess that there was a miscommunication where your on-call workers were so tired that they meant “we are going home and would like our normal work for this day to be covered by vacation”, but what your payroll clerk did was “pay them at the vacation rate instead of overtime, for the hours they worked”. That’s the most charitable interpretation I could come up with to best-fit how you described what happened. Their supervisor didn’t approve the overtime, you told the payroll clerk to override the supervisor’s decision on your authority and give them the overtime rate instead of making them use their vacation hours to cover it – is that correct?

  173. firelizard*

    Alison covered the anger problems, but there’s another thing she’s talked about that OP should look into: skewed norms.

    OP, it may be helpful to look into why you thought this was acceptable in a workplace. Maybe you had a bad boss yourself, or your family is like this, or outbursts like this were common in an industry you worked in or even your current industry (common =/= right, and good employees still leave because of it. You can set a higher standard.). It’s time to root out those bad lessons if you want to save your business, and improve.

    Since you wrote in, maybe you’re ready to hear that. I read your letter as realizing slowly that you messed up and not knowing what to do. I honestly wish you good luck- maybe you can even become a great boss in the future if you learn from this now and do the work to fix it. Screw ups are highly educational!

    2. Worldwalker*

      I had a boss like this. I worked there for two weeks — all but the first day of which I spent job searching. It was so long ago that it was a job at a typewriter store!

      You can pay me enough to be screamed at in Russian, but minimum wage is not enough.

  175. sagegreen is still my favorite color.*

    Wow…what a letter and how many comments! I hope they don’t come back and that they write in so we get their side. If they do come back, you need to use Alison’s advice and the articles she has on the site on managing and learn to do better. Or actually, hire a manager because you are going to give yourself a coronary acting like that.

        1. Polly Hedron*

          After a more careful reading, I agree; but, alas, the employees can’t write in because they don’t know about Robert’s posting.

          1. sagegreen is still my favorite color*

            Yes, that is what I meant. I so hope they write in, not only to tell us their side, but so they can get help getting a good job.

  176. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

    Robert, one thing you did not say in your letter was “This is so out of character for me”. Which leads me to think it IS in character for you, and if this incident hadn’t occurred, something else would have, and you would have responded in the same way. It seems unlikely that you are calm and respectful of others when you are at home, with friends etc, or that you know how to behave in a calm and effective manner.
    This behaviour and approach has led you to a bad place, which seems bad to you as well, it’s puzzling you and you aren’t sure how to deal with it. What will you do next? I suggest a medical checkup to start with, before your blood pressure blows the top of your head off. Be clear with your doctor if you are using steroids or non-prescribed drugs or alcohol, or are using any prescribed medication that might not be right for you any more. Find a way to take at least two weeks off work, and to get away into a non-work environment. (Good practice in case you close the business.) Go swimming or walking or fishing.
    This is a big wake-up call for you- this much anger and rage is not normal, and will ruin your life. Good luck Robert, come back and tell us in a year’s time – maybe you will have found a job that is meaningful and creative and peaceful for you- I am picturing you building stone walls out in the fresh air of the countryside somewhere.

  177. Dog momma*

    I’m not sure why people are saying they are ok with these employees taking vacation time. They worked their normal shift, and were paid OT. Might have even gotten on call pay. The part where they were sent home to sleep is now not a part of their shift as they already worked the hours. . plus its a safety and fatigue issue. If they used vacation time, then they’ve been paid AGAIN. .
    There needs to be a process in place, to figure this out bc boss and supervisor ( who may not have BEEN trained, or has to run everything by the boss) can’t figure this out for some reason. Sounds like there needs to be 1 or 2 backup employees to finish the regular shift of those who did the overnight.

    and owner needs anger man at classes Stat! before police get involved, or he loses his business bc nobody will work for him.

  178. Fergus*

    I had an interview with a company where the employees did not smile and did not take their eyes off their computer screen. I was told I didn’t have the required skills even though I had 4 years more experience then their top employee. this was after I had an hour and a half phone interview with the owner and a 5 page resume. I worked in IT. he contacted me a few months later. I emailed him not to contact me anymore. I had a good idea it was a dumpster fire

  179. MsBanana*

    I had a boss like this a few years ago. Wildly innapropriate rage, berating to all staff including his sons (who often got the most of the abuse). Turnover was HIGH. Once I was in the car with him and he drove in the opposite lane for a block because he felt too important to wait in traffic. (Although in a good bit of karma, he was pulled over right then and immediately lost his licence.) I was young, and I stayed here for another 6 months after he threw a shoe at me (although I took them to the labor board after I was laid off.) He was one smug, arrogant, narcissist and I hope that the me of today would never stand for that level of abuse.

  180. Hamster Manager*

    I’m sorry OP, but yes, I do think you should either close the business or hire someone to manage in your place and take a gigantic step back.

    The reasons being your abusive behavior to staff and inability to control that behavior, your lack of understanding how to manage people, your distorted view of how pay and leave can and should work, and also the absolute drama of “well maybe I’ll just take my ball home and close the business then!” Not to mention the strong whiff of “I’m in the right here” in your letter.

    You’re either not suited to this type of job, or not ready for it. I know you’re getting piled on here, which is deserved, but I hope you get a little self-reflection out of this. You employees are people. Treat them with basic dignity, or don’t have employees.

  181. Eagle*

    I worked for someone like this. I was in a high risk pregnancy with twins and the owner was screaming at me for doing what he told me to do (pay all other employees first and not pay him if the business didn’t have the money available) then realizing the consequences to himself (he can’t pay his bills) and thus yelling at me who could not fix it without revoking everyone else’s payroll (his net was larger than the net of the other four employees combined). I started feeling unwell and had twins sitting on my bladder, so I got up and walked away. He FOLLOWED me screaming right into the bathroom! I asked him if he planned to watch me use the restroom at which point he finally realized where he was and walked out.

    I worked for another guy like you. He yelled and screamed to the point he lost all his office staff and had cajoled a friend into taking one office roll and hired me to do all the office work. I was rebuilding his financial records from what he had to support them. He and I spoke about it several times and the CPA agreed with me that it was the best we could do. I put up with his behavior until the CPA came in for a meeting, agreed with me again and he shouted and humiliated me in front of the CPA. After she left, I walked off that job. I was there for less than two weeks. I learned it wouldn’t get better from past experiences.

    Please consider anger management because coaching will not be enough. All the best coaching in the world will not help if things make you that angry. You may also want to consider therapy, because it’s likely that other things in your life are adding to and fueling your anger.

  182. toolegittoresign*

    I have worked places where the hours could get very long and crazy. If any of your employees recently worked 7pm to 11am to resolve and emergency, it is more essential than ever to try and cut them as much slack as possible. That means even if you’re upset over the way they handled it on their time cards, you need to first recognize first and foremost their willingness to pull an emergency 16 hour shift, be grateful for that, and give them the benefit of the doubt. It’s likely they misunderstood how to record the time and a simple conversation that started with acknowledging their emergency work and your gratitude for it and ended with how you’d like it be on the time cards would have gotten the outcome you wanted. You very much need to recognize that your behavior alienated and offended your employees right after they went above and beyond for you and the business.

  183. Office Teacher*

    I think the fact that OP is struggling to take accountability for the scope of the inappropriateness of their overreaction suggests more than just learning more about management should be recommended here. Someone could have been hurt. So while that is a good step, I think it’s one to supplement some therapy to help manage the burnout or whatever other overwhelming emotions lead to the overreaction in the first place. Being overwhelmed is normal and challenging – thankfully, there are specialists to help with this!

  184. Rd*

    I’m surprised Ask a Manager didn’t address “I have no problem paying for overtime” as if it’s a choice. He has a choice to prevent it, but to not pay it when it happens.

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