employee won’t do part of his job, interviewing when they know they want to hire someone else, and more

by Alison Green on August 16, 2024

It’s four answers to four questions. Here we go…

1. Employee won’t do part of his job

I work for a small gym franchise as a manager. Our model is 24-hour access for our members. The staff is not there 24 hours.

Because of complaints we are receiving, I have asked all personal trainers to return towels to the laundry area if they see them overflowing. It’s a 20-second task.

Consistently one particular trainer will not do this task. Towels will be overflowing on to the floor before the office staff arrives. He arrives before the office staff. This is causing serious conflict between the office staff and him. He is the only trainer pushing back. This is mandatory.

I have a meeting with him today. I just don’t know how much more I can take with him. There have been other issues before this. He is very passive, complains a lot, and has a sense of entitlement. For example, we pay a flat fee for trainers to perform a 30-minute class. He demanded we pay him per participant. He refused to take on the class after we said no. He said he wasn’t making enough money, so we offered for him to work in the office and clean the gym on Sundays. He has declined almost every offer. When said, “I thought you needed extra money and there are six shifts you can work this week,” his response was that he feels like he is getting used (?).

Is he a good trainer? If so, it probably doesn’t make sense to lose him over the towels. But it sounds like there’s more going on than just towels.

To answer what you’re asking: you can’t make him do something he doesn’t want to do. You can only decide how committed you are to enforcing the requirement, even if it means you might lose him or others. If you decide it’s an essential requirement of the job, to the point that you’re willing to lose people over it, then you need to explain that and let him decide if he wants to continue working there under those terms or not.

The same thing goes for things like what classes pay and offering extra shifts; you just need to explain what’s on offer and under what terms, and then he can decide if he wants to take you up on that or not. Your role isn’t to cajole him into seeing things that way you do; your role is just to be very clear about what you can and can’t offer, and what’s required to remain in the job. His role is to decide if he’s up for that or not. If he’s not — based on either word or deed — then the next step is to ask (either yourself or him, or both) whether it would make sense to part ways.

2. Employee asked me not to call an ambulance if they had a seizure

I’ve had two new hires over the past seven years tell me that they have epilepsy. Great, thanks for telling me, what should I look out for in terms of warning signs, anything particular that you might do at work that could trigger them that we need to change, etc.? Both employees, about a year apart from each other, told me that whatever I do, I should not call an ambulance if they have a seizure.

I know that even with health insurance, ambulance rides can be expensive since you never know if the ambulance is in-network with your health insurance company. And I understand that generally if you see a doctor after a seizure, you are told that you cannot drive for X months, which is an incredible hardship.

Still, I felt supremely uncomfortable with this request. Ultimately, I agreed to use my best judgment if the need should arise, despite their protests. Thankfully I never had to find out what I’d do, and since then, both employees have moved on.

What’s the right answer here, both as an employer and human worried about another human, and as an employer worried about potential legalities and ramifications?

There are two sides of this. First, individual people with epilepsy know their conditions best, and they may know that there’s nothing the ER can do for them except in more severe situations. That’s often the case! If this comes up again, ask under what circumstances you should call (for example, one common set of guidelines is to only go to the ER if the seizure lasts more than five minutes or there’s a head injury).

The other side is the company’s legal liability; you’d need to loop in HR so they’re aware of what’s been requested and what you’re agreeing to — because at that point you’re acting as an agent of the company, not a private individual. Whenever you have a situation where an employee asks for something related to a medical condition that you’re uncertain about, that’s a flag that it’s probably over your pay grade to navigate on your own.

3. My coworker jokes about suicide

Two months ago I started a new job and really bonded with a coworker we’ll call Mel. Mel and I really get along, and I like her a lot.

The problem is Mel is rather negative — she constantly talks about how she doesn’t want to be doing work or doesn’t want to be here. I know we all feel that way, but she complains frequently. That I can deal with and kind of brush off, especially because I know she does truly like it here, she (like most of us) would just rather be spending her time doing what she wants to do instead of working a 9-5. However, what’s really getting to me is her constant jokes about how she wants to kill herself. The smallest hiccup at work will prompt a response of, “Well, guess I’ll just go off myself,” and she will often mime either hanging herself or shooting herself.

I know she isn’t seriously making suicide threats, she’s just expressing how much she dislikes something that’s happened during the day. However, I have a history of suicidal ideation, and I find it very disturbing to be confronted with these comments multiple times a day.

If I brought this to the attention of the firm partners, I assume they would say something to Mel, but I think it would be very obvious I was the one who complained since I’m new and no one has ever said anything before. From reading your columns, I know your first step is usually to speak to the coworker myself. I was hoping for some pointers about what to say.

Some options:

“Please don’t joke about suicide. You never know if someone around you has been affected by it.”

“Could you please not make that joke? I find it really upsetting.”

“Suicide is a hard topic for a lot of people. I’d be grateful if you didn’t joke about it around me.”

“That’s not a thing to joke about. Please stop saying things like that.”

4. Interviewing when they already know they want to hire someone else

I recently applied for a great role and had two interviews. There is a third round which involves a task.

At the end of the second interview, I asked about the circumstances of the role becoming available, and after a pause they said that someone is already doing the job but is on a temporary contract, and to become permanent HR required them to advertise the role externally. That person is going through the same interview process, but to me it sounds very likely that they just want them to stay and are going through the motions with me and other candidates. After all, they have already been doing the job for a year, so could give much better answers about their ability to perform the role.

I feel quite put out as I’ve spent a lot of time preparing for a role that isn’t even vacant. I wouldn’t have applied if I’d known up-front. Am I justified in feeling my time has been wasted, or is this just normal business practice? I’m wondering whether or not to let their HR team know that this bothered me.

You are justified in feeling annoyed that your time has been wasted and it’s a normal business practice.

A lot of organizations have internal policies requiring them to advertise every position before hiring, even if they’ve already identified someone who’s likely to get the job. The idea is supposed to be to ensure they’re hiring the best person for the job (and also to avoid cronyism), but when the hiring manager complies only with the letter of the policy, not its spirit, it wastes everyone’s time, and it actively subverts the point of having the policy in the first place. Some employers include language in their ads like “a preferred candidate has been identified” so people at least know what’s up before they apply, but others don’t.

That said, even when an employer already has a candidate in mind, sometimes a really good external candidate can still win out. And it’s not always true that a temporary fill-in will always get the job (as we saw earlier this week). But in this particular case, if you’re right that they were just going through motions, they should have been more transparent from the start so you could decide whether you cared to invest your time that way or not.

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{ 571 comments }

{ 571 comments… read them below }

  1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

    OP#3 — is there any chance Mel is struggling with depression or similar mental health challenges? It certainly doesn’t excuse joking about suicide (truly not ok and very triggering), but it’s hard to gauge if she’s simply an Eeyore-like person or if she’s perhaps going through something and not managing it well. If you think there’s a chance it’s the latter, I would consider gently asking if she’s ok in addition to being very clear that you would like her to stop making light of a serious subject.

    Alternately, sometimes the complaining becomes a habit. In those circumstances, it may help to redirect the conversation when she begins complaining to avoid getting to the point where she’s making suicide jokes. Or you could point out that she seems to be unhappy/is complaining a lot. Sometimes reflecting back the behavior helps someone snap out of it, which may head off the “jokes” altogether.

    1. allathian*

      Sometimes treating every “joke” about suicide as if the person’s means it is the thing that finally makes them realize that it’s not something you joke about, especially not at work.

      Constantly complaining about your job isn’t normal either, at least not when you’re working for a decent organization, have great coworkers, a supportive manager, and a job that you don’t straight up hate. Sure, I don’t hide the fact that I love my vacations and weekends and that I wouldn’t do what I do for free, and saying TGIF after a stressful week is a way to destress a bit. But whenever I’ve found myself complaining constantly about a job, it’s been the kick in the butt I’ve needed to realize that I need to start looking for something else.

      It’s also one thing to complain to your friends about your job, and I’ve done that even when it’s been just a slight vent and not a declaration of intent to look elsewhere. It’s something else entirely to complain to your coworkers, and especially to a new employee who’s only just started. Most new employees are happy about their new opportunity, unless the job is utterly horrible.

      That said, it sounds like Mel doesn’t really mean what she’s saying, but I’m really wondering why the LW thinks she’s so great. I’d get sick of that sort of constant complaining very quickly, and I suspect that in my grouchy 50s I’d let the person know that. I certainly wouldn’t seek their company and definitely wouldn’t consider them a (work) friend.

      I’m no fan of toxic positivity either, but bonding over negative stuff is not my idea of fun, either. I suspect that that’s what Mel’s trying to do. LW, does she ever have anything positive to say about anything?

      1. I should really pick a name*

        That possibility doesn’t really change anything from the LW’s perspective. A simple “please don’t joke about things like that” is all that’s warranted.

      2. Hannah Lee*

        “Sometimes treating every “joke” about suicide as if the person’s means it is the thing that finally makes them realize that it’s not something you joke about, especially not at work.”

        I was thinking that as well, for the reasons you mentioned. But also because when something is on someone’s mind, it often leaks out in conversation (for example, that friend who is still hung up on old flame or with a crush frequently bringing them up in passing during conversations about other stuff)

        And since Alison had *just* used this phrasing in the prior answer:
        ” a flag that it’s probably over your pay grade to navigate on your own.”

        I’m wondering if LW might want to mention this to someone else at their workplace, not in a complaining way, but in a ‘Mel keeps bringing this up, and I have no way of knowing whether she’s really just joking or if it’s something she might need assistance with, but I wanted to mention it to someone just in case.”

        I’d go Alison’s route 1st, but if it continues, I’d raise it to someone (HR or equivalent)

      3. Nesprin*

        +1

        “Hey, please don’t joke about suicide. I’m happy to find you help for you if you need it, but otherwise, it’s a sensitive topic for me.”

    2. WoodswomanWrites*

      Great advice as usual, Princess Consuela Banana Hammock. So great to see you back at AAM!

      1. Myrin*

        I was thinking that when I saw her name yesterday. I was like, no way, is that the Princess back with us again?!
        If you are, PCBH, a very warm welcome back, and if you’re a new person who just so happened to choose the same username as a former regular commenter, welcome to AAM!

      5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Thanks so much! I was in a bit of a work vortex for a few years but am periodically reading and commenting, again. It’s so lovely to see familiar names (and new ones)!

    3. Cat Tree*

      I had a similar thought. Are you really sure that it’s just joking? Years ago I had severe depression that manifested mostly as anger, which came out in constant complaining. (Note I did not make suicide jokes at that time.) It’s a less common expression of depression so it took me a long time to realize it.

      Of course it’s not LW’s job to handle someone else’s mental health. But personally I would be inclined to take to the “jokes” seriously and handle it in the same way as someone else displaying the more classic common warning signs. And then it’s still all them to stop making those kinds of statements.

      1. TootsNYC*

        severe depression that manifested mostly as anger

        It was eye-opening to me to see that as one of the serious symptoms on a checklist. It explained my Rude Politicial Uncle so much

      2. Office Plant Queen*

        My spouse, too. Except it was both depression and anxiety, so it was more in the vein of angry catastrophizing than complaining, although I wasn’t around him at work so it may have presented differently there. I got the full unmasked version at home, though

      3. CommanderBanana*

        Are you me?? Same thing – I had persistent chronic depression that manifested itself as anger/irritability and not “sadness,” so it didn’t get diagnosed for far too long, because I had no concept of myself as having depression because I wasn’t “sad” or displaying any of the “typical” symptoms of depression.

      4. Everything's Fine Now*

        This. Before she started medication, my wife would use jokes exactly like this as an outlet for actual suicidal ideation.

    4. JB (not in Houston)*

      Good to see you back again! Good point about it becoming a habit. there’s a good chance she doesn’t realize how it’s coming across cumulatively, even aside from the suicide jokes

      1. PurpleShark*

        To dovetail onto this. She also does not know if there is a suicide in your family/close friend. It is really one of those things that is taboo because you do not know anyone’s personal history around this.

    5. An Honest Nudibranch*

      Honestly, I have found “take it with some degree of seriousness” tends to be the way to go with situations like this. Partially because it can be legitimately hard to tell how serious someone is with suicide jokes – it is not necessarily unusual for someone with suicidal ideation to have an otherwise cheerful demeanor! – but also because it tends to shut the behavior down even if the person was 100% joking.

      “Are you okay?” is not the response people want when making jokes, and for most reasonable people is enough to make them realize *why* making jokes like that are not a great idea.

      But she makes it really clear she’s joking and doesn’t intend to stop after a gentle check-in, then ya, Alison’s scripts are great.

    7. Butterfly Counter*

      Yes.

      After the next “joke,” my response might be something like, “I know you’re joking, but I’m concerned that you joke about suicide so much. It feels like it’s something that might always be on your mind, and that can be dangerous. I think you should let the ‘joke’ rest for a while.”

      This response, versus Alison’s answers, would be less likely to result in Mel thinking it was OP’s issue and really start to reflect if they have an issue.

      1. Ellie*

        I love this wording, and this is the approach I would take. I’d see if I could grab a coffee with her one day, and ask her seriously about the way she talks. Who knows, it might be the nudge she needs to recognise that she needs to get help. Or, it might make her realise how unpleasant it is for other people to hear about this stuff and might get her to change her language.

  2. Pink Sprite*

    OP #3: I’m glad you’ve found a friend at your new job. That can be difficult to do!
    Unfortunately, Mel is consistently saying very upsetting phrases. I’m sad and sorry that you and anyone else has to hear that.
    Perhaps it’s time to branch out and start making becoming more friendly with other coworkers. I’m not at all saying to drop Mel, but it’s good to expand and explore your new workplace.

  3. GoodReasonsNotToCall*

    LW2, I have severe back issues. If I get jarred, pushed, trip, or otherwise aggravate my back I can literally be screaming in pain and unaware of my surroundings until it calms down enough that I can take medication, and I will still be in excruciating pain until the medicine takes effect. This can take a long time.

    There is absolutely nothing else they can do for me. Even if I fall, other than helping me stand up once my back has calmed down a bit there is nothing that can be done.

    I have been forcibly dragooned to the ER several times, often in ways that aggravate my back (having to lie down on a gurneys will do it even before adding in movement, bumps, etc). I have even been taken to the psych ward against my will before because obviously I needed medical assistance and my refusal was a sign that I was incapable of making decisions for myself. And then I have to figure out how to get home on my own, sometimes with no help from the staff and without being allowed to use my phone without going outside. Last time it took me >2 hours to find a local cab company that would go from the ER where they took me back to where I lived, and the ride cost me $40 – and I had ~$120 worth of groceries with ne to boot, most of which had to be thrown out. Oh, and the doctor gave me a hard time about wasting his time when it was clear there this was normal for me and there was nothing he could do to help.

    It’s beyond aggravating – it’s painful, infantilizing, ableism, expensive, time consuming, unproductive, and infuriating – and all at a time when I’m in a ton of pain and just want to sit down quietly and wait for my prescribed treatment from medical professionals who know me to start working.

    So yeah, if someone tells you not to call an ambulance, don’t call an ambulance. If they tell you ahead of time and you need some type of explanation, ask for it, but unless they seem to be bleeding out or something similar don’t go against their wishes. The suggestion of asking if there are situations when they should call is a good one, though. I’ll have to think about how I would answer it beyond only if I ask you to call.

    1. Luna*

      I’m sorry about what seems like a terrible time for you.

      But I’m also really sorry for people who have to make a super quick decision, with almost no intel, about what seems like really high stakes health choices for another person. If you have the possibility of these things, I think you should hatch a plan. There is a fine line between privacy and letting the people you are around in on the situation. I get the impulse to err on the side of privacy, but certainly, if you depend on people to be aware if you are in crisis…you have to share SOMETHING.

      1. GoodReasonsNotToCall*

        The problem is that it’s not just at work – complete strangers in public places will cause the issue by pushing me out of their way then freak out at what they caused.

        I have a tag on the bag I typically carry with a few lines of explanation and a longer printout attached to my walker which not only includes full instructions but also the phone number of my primary provider organization (for EMS or cops or similar in case of a true emergency).

        As an aside, I don’t see where I’m advocating saying nothing. The entire asking not to call convoys in the original letter clearly involved disclosing medical information to the employer. I don’t go into a ton of detail, but I do warn people I share office space with that it might happen (or did before I worked remotely) and tell them I have a sort of medic alert bracelet equivalent hanging on my walker.

        Most of the time if someone calls EMS I talk to them for a couple of minutes, refuse further care, and they leave. That should happen 100% of the time and if it did then calling EMS wouldn’t be a huge deal beyond wasting a bit of time (it should bear no financial responsibility for the subject of the call if they’re not transported). But it’s not always that simple and there can be a lot of pressure from witnesses who are convinced something unexpected and awful happened because it was scary for them. That’s how I ended up getting transported against my will and taken to the psych ward – bystanders convinced EMS that I was being irrational because they decided I needed help and so EMS disregarded my clearly stated wishes despite my right to refuse care.

        So I had a plan. The employee who asked them not to call EMS had a plan. People just don’t like the plan because they think there should be something the medical folks could or should do even when there isn’t.

        2. RVA Cat*

          This is all beyond awful, but I am livid that people are *pushing you out of their way* to cause you this misery – and they’re doing it when you use a walker?! That is assault and battery. They’re the ones who should get hauled off against their will – in handcuffs.

          1. Ohio Duck*

            As unbelievably rude as it is, I don’t think jostling someone on the sidewalk counts as assault. I didn’t get the impression that these people know it will cause excruciating pain, just that they freak out and call 911 when it does. Still appalling behavior, especially when the other person has a walker.

            1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

              “complete strangers in public places will cause the issue by pushing me out of their way”

              1. Dust Bunny*

                I mean, a guy technically pushed me out of the way on the train the other day but it was crowded and there wasn’t any other way for him to get in the door. It wasn’t aggressive, it was just . . . commuting. Being out in public often involves some bumping and shoving.

                2. Dust Bunny*

                  I’ve been bumped into (not on purpose) plenty of times with more or less the same force as one might use get someone to move. It wasn’t a literal shove with hands. If it takes a certain level of force to trigger a flare-up I don’t think it differentiates between an intentional shove and an accidental one. It was just . . . a crowded train with some full-body jostling? It was a crowd in an enclosed space with a degree of bumping and squeezing that was very normal for this route at rush hour.

                  But if you’re in pain to the point that you’re screaming and unaware of your surroundings you can’t realistically expect people not to call for help.

                3. Prairie*

                  Yeah I’m with you. These commenters are not public transit commuters. Taking the bus and the T to and from work means getting pressed into, bumped, stepped on and pushed (and sometimes yelled at) twice a day five days a week.

                4. Orv*

                  I used to ride the bus to work, often standing room only, and I was routinely (and generally inadvertently) pushed, jostled, bumped by people’s backpacks, etc. It’s just unavoidable in that situation.

            2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

              Did you miss the part where they said they have a walker. You don’t just have a walker for no reason and it’s a sign to be careful around the person.

              1. le sigh*

                It’s a sign a lot of people ignore. I have family members that need a walker and it’s very obvious when you see them that they have trouble with balance and walking. Quite a few people are courteous and patient, but unfortunately a lot of people brush past them too close and too quickly without considering that it could cause a dangerous fall. And it’s not like we’re on public transit or blocking doorways, this happens in grocery stores, doc offices, you name it.

                1. CommanderBanana*

                  Seriously! I had foot surgery a few years ago and was in a knee-high walking boot and it was amazing how many people collided with me while I couldn’t get out of the way. I was in a check-out line and had to tell the woman behind me that her child needed to stop shoving past me to ogle the candy because I couldn’t maneuver out of his way in my boot, or once sitting on the floor of the subway because no one would stand up or move to let me get close enough to a pole to hang onto it.

                  I was only in the boot for a few weeks, but if I had to deal with this on a daily basis I’d probably start whacking people with my mobility device. I don’t think most people are malevolent, it’s mostly just obliviousness with a fair amount of rudeness mixed in.

                2. Middle Aged Lady*

                  I agree. There are a few places that a friend who uses a walker doesn’t go with us anymore because she has been knocked down(!) by others’ carelessness. She has vertigo and if she gets jostled too hard and loses her equilibrium/hold on the walker she falls down.

        3. Analyst*

          There’s a big difference on calling an ambulance for someone who is communicating (in your case) and can inform people of their current condition vs the OP’s co-worker who is unconscious with a seizure. OP’s workplace is likely to require EMTs be called for that. If co-worker is conscious when they arrive, they can refuse transport. If they’re not, well…they probably in fact need to be transported. And of course refusal of transport should be respected and you should certainly not be responsible for bills incurred when they disregard your wishes.

          1. Seeming up*

            Agreed. Especially in a company situation, I would not want to be liable for making that decision. If it turns out an ambulance was warranted. It’s one thing to be on the street, it’s something else to be at work.

            1. PurpleShark*

              Sorry, not a direct reply to you but I wanted to embed it somewhat higher to help LR. The epilepsy foundation is a really great resource for identifying what to do and when to call for help in the event of a seizure http://www.epilepsy.com
              They have trainings and a handout for folks who witness to know when and how to intervene as well as when EMS is needed. If you go to the toolkit there is a handout for you to utilize for this information. The videos are good too as my school system requires all employees to review them each year.

          2. MigraineMonth*

            I don’t think we’re qualified to make the call as to whether someone needs to be transported in an ambulance for emergency care. The person who deals with the medical condition daily and their medical providers know far more than we do–and more than the EMTs who are coming in with almost more information–about whether emergency transport and other interventions are required.

            Ask the person with the medical condition when an ambulance *should* be called (e.g. after a head injury or after 5 minutes), talk with HR about policies, and try to come to a consensus about what to do in the case of a seizure.

            Don’t just call an ambulance because you assume they need it *after they’ve specifically told you they don’t*, though, unless you’re prepared to at least pay for it.

          3. Nesprin*

            +1 calling an ambulance is not the same as making take an ambulance trip to the hospital. If someone passes out or seizes in front of me, I’m calling EMS, but the patient can decline transport once the ambulance gets there.

            1. New Jack Karyn*

              Please note that GoodReasons has been transported against their will, costing them a bunch of money. They were coherent with the EMS crew, but got hauled off *anyhow* and taken to the psych ward!

              If someone you know tells you ahead of time to not call EMS for a seizure, follow their wishes. Show some respect for their autonomy.

      2. GrumpyPenguin*

        Generally, you shouldn’t have to share medical information, but I agree it can be helpful to do so in certain cases. People need to know how to react properly in medical emergencies.
        I have epilepsie and here’s what I tell people: My triggers, how to spot I might have a seizure, how a seizure will look like, exact steps how to help me. A lot of damage can be done, by well-meaning, yet uninformed overstrained people.

        1. spiriferida*

          In the case of a workplace, have you handled this with an ADA accommodation, in addition to informing your coworkers? It seems like the ADA process would be a good place to formalize the request for an ambulance not to be called, but I don’t know if it’s useful in practice.

          1. Arrietty*

            I’m in the UK so different situation, but I had a disabled student plan at my university that set out that I had a condition leading me to occasionally faint, and that there was no need for any medical treatment or intervention. It was basically an unplan – “if this happens, don’t do anything”.

        2. Dust Bunny*

          One of my former bosses had asthma and outlined to us, with no drama, what to do if he had an attack, from minor attack to really serious attack. He never did have an attack at work but at least we knew what he wanted us to do if he had. It never came up again after that.

      3. Frank Doyle*

        Who has to make a “super quick decision?” Who is not sharing “SOMETHING?” That’s not the situation that’s been described by the OP or GoodReasonsNotToCall.

        1. GrumpyPenguin*

          I meant to answer to Luna’s post. I think she was referring to a situation where there is a medical emergency and bystanders are unsure what to do.

        2. Myrin*

          I’m not sure if I’m misreading you or if you misread Luna or something else entirely but:

          “Who has to make a “super quick decision?””
          The bystanders who have to decide what to do when someone next to them is having a seizure. In this case, the OP.

          “Who is not sharing “SOMETHING?””
          The employees in the letter (although I reckon Luna spoke generally). Basically all threads on this topic are about needing to make a plan beforehand specifically about what exactly to do and NOT to do in case of a seizure, but for that to work, you need information from the employees (like how Alison says, “how long is too long” or “what would the situation have to be like for me to have to call an ambulance after all”, or like another commenter mentioned “employee is exhausted afterwards and needs someone to take her home” or similar). OP didn’t seem to have gotten any information whatsoever beyond “don’t ever call an ambulance” and for one of the employees “but do call husband to take me to the hospital”.

      4. metadata minion*

        But in the case of the LW, both employees explained their condition and clearly requested their supervisor to not call an ambulance. That seems pretty straightforward to me. I’m sure it is alarming to watch someone have a seizure, and it’s certainly the sort of thing where you *would* call an ambulance if you didn’t know what was going on. But here, you *do* know what’s going on and shouldn’t be second-guessing the employee unless there’s something more going on (e.g. the person hit their head/fell down the stairs/otherwise seems to have injured themselves).

        1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

          Yeah, I’m generally not in favor disclosing medical conditions at work if you don’t have to. But, if you may be temporarily unable to make decisions AND you want something specific (like not calling 911), that seems different. Years ago my officemate — who I had no idea had epilepsy — had a seizure in our shared office and then spent months trying to get me to pay for the ambulance ride because it was “ridiculous” that I had called 911. I felt bad about her bills, but I had to make a split-second decision and I’d never seen a seizure before!

      5. JSPA*

        I’ve seen people use medalert bracelets or wallet cards. I’ve also seen those bracelets and wallet cards be ignored, when they say not to treat / transport, rather than how to treat / how & where to transport.

      6. Dinwar*

        This.

        If someone were screaming in pain, I was doing nothing, and my manager walked in the first thing she’d do is call an ambulance. The second thing would be to fire me, if not have me arrested. It’s an egregious violation of every safety principle our company has and multiple requirements in our employee handbook. I’m not ALLOWED to do nothing. Unless, that is, it’s a documented issue and we have a plan in place. A reasonable person, seeing someone incapacitated by pain and literally screaming in agony, is going to call 911; if you want anything else to happen, you need to let us know.

        I understand the desire to keep medical information private, but we can’t read minds. Expecting people to react in abnormal ways without informing them of the need to do so is unreasonable.

        1. Office Plant Queen*

          The person did elaborate further saying that it’s fine (if ultimately a waste of time) if someone calls an ambulance and then lets them handle the discussion with paramedics, but that they’ve been transported against their will before when bystanders insisted that they weren’t in their right mind and able to decide for themselves to refuse treatment.

          When I did first responder training at work, one thing the trainer really emphasized was to err on the side of calling an ambulance, but to then let the person in question argue with paramedics about whether or not they needed to go to the hospital. Because as a non-medical professional who happened to have first aid training, that kind of thing is outside the scope of what we’re qualified to do

    2. GrumpyPenguin*

      Agree to all of this. Not all patients with a certain illness are the same. I have epilepsie, but I never loose consciousness and I usually feel it coming so I can warn people around me. Calling an ambulance is useless for me too, I just need a safe ride home so I can get some rest. I know my condition, I have medication, I have a tag on my bag with instructions, I tell people I see regularly what they should do in case I have a seizure – yet some people insist on knowing better. I had so many conversations where people tried to explain my own illness to me with “knowledge”from the internet and cliches from movies and refused to accept that I have actual experience with this.

      Worst thing that happened to me was a similar experience like you where I was taken to the ER against my will, despite telling everyone I don’t need that kind of help. They kept me there for 4 hours, took a blood sample in a really painful way, did an electroencephalography and so on. At the end the doctor bawled at me why I was even there instead of just going home and rest. When I finally got home after an expensive cab ride, I just slept for 16 hours.

      It’s just so infuriating and patronizing and I honestly don’t know how to prevent that. I understand when people who have no information are worried and overreact, but once I inform them they should take my word for it. My disablility isn’t the epilepsie, it’s people who think they know better when they clearly don’t.

      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        Passers-by in the street should listen to you and MTOB.
        However, if you are at work, an employer can’t just take your word for it unless there is an agreed plan that will absolve them of all legal liability for not calling an ambulance.
        They may decide that no plan removes all risk to them, or be too small an employer to want to pay for legal advice when they can just call an ambulance. In either case, the job may not be for you.

        1. Smithy*

          Yeah – my first situation with this was when I was at a small employer and tried to explain that should I ever faint at work, that I didn’t need medical care.

          While it certainly sounds very dismissive, it was also very clear that this simply was not a liability where “doing nothing” made them comfortable. At larger employers, this conversation has been possible, but I really do get how non-medical people fearing issues of liability are very hesitant to do nothing.

        2. Turning*

          This is so unpragmatic, unrealistic and dismissive of people who know their bodies best. There are plenty of ways to manage this without becoming liable or going expressly against someone’s wishes. As soon as a person has a medical condition, everyone around them assumes they know better than them.

          “This isn’t the job for you” – that’s so condescending and uninsightful. Jobs that make themselves not the job for their employees should not be chalked up to being something the employee has to just deal with. And it drives me up the wall when people think that the solution to people being ableist is that the person isn’t suited to the workplace, not that, you know, ableism is blinding people of common sense and practical solution seeking.

      2. SimonTheGreyWarden*

        This. My son has recently been diagnosed with epilepsy. He’s very young and his seizures have no warning signs. At his summer care program this year, they needed to administer his emergency meds (given when the seizure lasts more than 5 minutes) twice, so they were required to call an ambulance. Luckily both times they had called me when the seizure started and I got there in time to ride along and advocate for him. Especially after his rescue meds, he’s unconscious for a while. The first time we went to the ER this summer, they did a lot of blood work and told me they would have to contact his neurology team despite me explaining that I had documentation from said neurology team that, unless he actively hit his head or was bleeding somehow, he did not need all/any of that. We were there 5 hours. He woke up about an hour in, but could not get off the bed, couldn’t do anything, because he was still hooked up to monitors. Luckily I had my old phone for him to play games on.

        The second time, we got an ER doctor who had seen us previously and recognized us, and basically said, “I don’t see a reason for labs, his vitals are normal, he’s not still seizing, we’ll keep you till he wakes up and then you can go. We were out of there in an hour.

        I understand why the summer care program had to call an ambulance, my son is too young to refuse care, but honestly there’s very little that can be done for him other than keeping him lying on his side and letting him come out of it naturally – unless, as I said, he hits his head or is otherwise injured.

      3. Maglev to Crazytown*

        I am the same with my epilepsy.

        I hear you entirely. I need to be able to go lay down and sleep after an attack… not be dragged to the ER, forcibly drug tested and humiliated, treated like someone who overdid it on the party drugs and LSD.

        Let me go eat my bag of saltines/potato chips in peace, and sleep. This shit is humiliating enough without being additionally treated like a 1960s mental asylum patient.

          1. Insert Clever Name Here*

            Have you read all the comments that people like Maglev to Crazytown, GoodReasonsNotToCall, and Three Owls in a Trench Coat are posting? If not, I really recommend that you do.

          2. MigraineMonth*

            Medics “just doing their jobs” can be humiliating, dangerous or lethal for their patients. This is particularly true when they assume that their patients are on drugs or having a psychotic episode and use physical or chemical restraints and coercion.

            For example, medical first responders were convicted of criminally negligent homicide in the death of Elijah McClain because they injected him with a lethal dose of Ketamine because he was agitated after police arrested him for the crime of (checks notes) being black while walking home from a convenience store.

            1. Maglev to Crazytown*

              There are multiple instances of confused epileptics being thrown in th drunk tank, deprived of access to their meds and not being believed that they are having a medical-based event. There have been deaths attributed to this too.

              I have been handcuffed by a police officer who decided to tag along with th EMS call, sustained to damage as a result. And got to pay for the lovely drug testing that I was administered at th hospital… as well as pay for the traumatizing ambulance ride I spent handcuffed to a stretcher. Finally a family member showed up to advocate for me, since no one was listening to me. And I was discharged with a note to “follow up with my neurologist.” No shit, Sherlock. That is what I was trying to TELL people I needed to do after I rested up. But some well-meaning asshat just had to “play hero” and call 911.

              I am sure they patted themselves on th back that day. I had to pay $2500 after insurance. And still don’t have full feeling in my wrists.

              But medica know best!

      4. Festively Dressed Earl*

        +1 and I’m sorry you have to go through this. One of my nephews has epilepsy, and after a seizure he needs peace, quiet, and rest. People wouldn’t expect a person with a migraine to endure a bright, noisy ER and relentless questioning; why force that on people with epilepsy who know their own bodies?

        1. Fish Microwaver*

          oh but they do. people with migraine are treated as drug seekers and time wasters, are not listened to and treated unkindly. It’s part of hidden illness syndrome.

    3. learnedthehardway*

      Another vote for going with what the employee has requested and PRE-PLANNED, rather than overriding their knowledge of their needs. These employees have taken the step of disclosing their medical condition and outlining what should be done in the event that they are affected by their medical condition while at work. They’re adults and presumably a lot more educated on what their medical requirements are than anyone else.

      The ideal thing to do would be to create a process and document it in the employee’s HR file, and also suggest the employee keep it accessible at their work station. EG. In case of X, provide supportive measures A and B, ensure the employee gets home safely. In case of Y, call their emergency contact. In case of Z, call ambulance.

      That should be enough to ensure the employee is properly cared for and to eliminate company liability. Keep in mind that there could be liability for ignoring the employee’s reasonable accommodations and providing care they do not want or need, too.

      A family member of mine has a seizure disorder – hers are more the vacant kind than grand mal seizures, but she can be “out” for a couple of minutes. She has medication, she needs to rest after a seizure, and she doesn’t drive. She generally knows when one is coming on, and takes preventative measures. If those don’t work, she just needs to sleep afterwards and will feel like she has a hangover. There’s absolutely no point sending her to a hospital – there is nothing they can do for her that hasn’t already been done – it would be a waste of her time, and of health resources. She’s under the care of a neurologist, she has a plan for dealing with her condition. That should be followed and respected.

    4. Smithy*

      I have vasovagal syncope – aka prone to fainting – and not only do I not require emergency medical care, the overall impact of me fainting is far less severe medically than epilepsy or a number of other conditions, such as this level of back pain. However, I had one job where I shared this with someone and said should I ever faint to not call 911 – and their face went ashen and they said there’s no way they could do that.

      While this won’t help with the general public, it was informative about how those we work with can be far more conservative and cautious than they might in their private life. It really helped me figure out how this was essentially an accommodation I needed to have on file with HR.

      For fainting or seizures, I think such a difficult part of decision making for those in those moments who don’t have medical training is that the person in question may not be responsive. Again, I don’t think that this provides much help with the general public, but it has given me more sympathy for my colleagues and supervisor who might see me unconscious.

      1. Orv*

        It seems like some people have had it drilled into their head that any loss of consciousness is a medical emergency. I’ve fainted a couple of times in my life and when I recounted these stories to friends they were shocked that I didn’t go to the hospital.

        1. New Jack Karyn*

          I think it’s because of the big push around TBI. It’s been drilled into me that if a head injury results in loss of consciousness, go to the hospital.

        2. Mangled Metaphor*

          A single faint is not a good reason to go to hospital. Multiple instances in a short span of time is cause for concern.
          A single KNOWN epileptic seizure is not a good reason to go to hospital. Multiple episodes in a short span of time is cause for concern.
          (But if they’ve hurt themselves it’s medical attention regardless).

          And I’m saying this from the position of being in the UK with the NHS not being an expensive weewah taxi, but a free at point of service option.

          I’m the First Aider at Work. I’ve been told by our resident Abrasive Yorkshireman that there is no need for an ambulance unless he has *three* seizures in half an hour because that’s what’s normal to him. I’ve told him, okay, but if you hit your head and are bleeding, *my* rules trump your “normal” and I’m calling an ambulance.

          It’s scary to watch someone have a seizure – even when you’ve been trained/warned in advance. Your gut instinct is to get someone with considerably more training than you to deal with the situation. But the person with the most training is the one currently on the floor and you have to trust what is normal for them and only act if they tell you they need you to.

          1. Potsie*

            A single faint can be a good reason to go to the hospital. If it was preceded by chest pain, severe head pain or came with no warning at all it can indicate something serious. If you are prone to fainting, a hospital probably won’t be helpful. I have epilepsy and I am prone to fainting. An ambulance won’t be helpful. I tell people this but also that if they feel the need to call an ambulance, I can simply refuse to go. If I am not in a state to refuse when the ambulance arrives then I do actually need to go to the ER.

        3. Freya*

          Yeah, if I went to the hospital every time I fainted before I learned better how to deal with my low blood pressure and stand up slowly, I’d have been in there a LOT. And there’s nothing they can do, except make things worse by not letting me eat or drink for hours.

    5. toolegittoresign*

      Sympathy is a two-way street in these situations. People seeing someone screaming in pain to the point where they’re unaware of their surroundings is extremely scary, and scared people don’t always stop to calmly assess the situation and read a medical bracelet or tag. I am so sorry you are dealing with this condition, but if I saw someone start screaming and being unresponsive, my knee-jerk reaction would be to call 911.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        It’s an understandable reaction but the wrong thing to do in this situation. (Panicking people often do the wrong thing.) If you see someone having a medical emergency other than heavy bleeding, stopped heart or no breathing, it’s probably a good idea to ask the person if they’re okay or check for a medic alert bracelet before doing anything else.

      2. Head Sheep Counter*

        I’m with you. I might call the non-emergency line if I am not seeing blood or unconsciousness but… I’m calling (and have called). I do not know what the situation is. I am not trained to make a judgement. I am not willing to put myself in direct harms way for what appears to be an unknown but terrifying situation. I am willing to bear witness and keep an eye on the situation.

        Ask for asking if someone is ok, that’s nifty – but if you didn’t appear to be coherent in the first place – should I really be taking your say so that you are fine?

    6. My Useless Two Cents*

      I’m sorry that sounds awful but as a bystander, if I see someone screaming in pain on the floor I’m calling an ambulance. I don’t know the situation and I’m not living with somebody’s death on my conscience because they were scared of the hospital bill (sorry world we live in that this does happen!).
      Something I heard about a few years ago that I thought was clever, although I acknowledge it’s not applicable in all situations. Have business cards printed up with “Do Not Call an Ambulance. I just need to lay still until my medicine starts working”. Keep some in your pocket. If something happens, hand one to the bystander.
      1) Anything you need to explain can be printed on the card. And the card can be passed around if more than one person is nearby or someone new comes on the scene. So you don’t have to keep explaining over and over again while you are in pain.
      2) By having the card, it’s a clear signal that it is an ongoing issue and you have it handled even if it looks scary to others

    7. Three Owls in a Trench Coat*

      A similarly infuriating outcome happened to a former roommate. The EMTs broke her wrist when they forced her onto the gurney during an active seizure. They completely ignored the medic alert bracelet on the same wrist. She didn’t need to go to the ER because of the seizure, but she sure did after they did that to her.

      1. Maglev to Crazytown*

        I don’t have motor affecting epilepsy, but my worst ever ultra rare presentation is like a full blown panic attack. EMS aren’t always the best answer.

        Having the police show up with the EMS resulted in sustaining permanent nerve damage in my hands after being HANDCUFFED because the officer thought for sure I was on drugs. This has also taken a mental toll on me, as I only have ever gotten the rare speeding ticket in my life, and am otherwise a good mild mannered citizen.

    8. Beth*

      Yes, sending someone to the ER when that’s not what they need is both incredibly expensive and also often a huge logistical imposition that blocks the person from doing what they actually need to be doing.

      I understand when a random passerby handles a medical emergency by calling 911–that’s The Done Thing in our society when you’re scared for someone’s safety. (Of course, if the person experiencing the emergency communicates that they need something else, that’s different. But that’s not always possible during a medical emergency.)

      But when someone you know has proactively told you not to call 911 when they’re experiencing specific symptoms? Ignoring their request will probably cause more problems than it solves. I think it makes sense to follow up with e.g. “Is there a level of severity where I should call, and if so what are the signs of that?”, but not to push back any harder than that.

    9. Boof*

      Uhg that is just awful and I will say I think it’s awful for everyone involved but most of all you since you have to go through it again and again…
      What about a life alert bracelet? That might help guide emergency response teams in what to do so they don’t keep flailing so wildly when you can’t talk well? That + a wallet card (or folded up doctor’s note with clear instructions that you renew once a year) might be the easiest way to communicate when it’s hard to communicate (what those things are supposed to be for / what first responders should be checking for)

  4. Bluebarramundi*

    Although it sounds like a decision had already been made in this case, in my experience (local, state and federal government in Australia) it is often the case that the person acting in the role is not hired as a better applicant emerges when the job is advertised externally. The reason for this is that the role can’t be vacant so someone within the organisation does it and that is a limited pool of people. I’ve seen this play out in various roles from admin to executive level. The rationale is that it is important to hire the best person for the job.

    2. Baker's dozen*

      I got my current job as the external applicant even though there was someone temporarily in the post. The hiring panel have since told me that they were expecting to hire him as he’d been a long term volunteer turned worker, but that my experience clearly outweighed his.

      It does happen!

      1. PostalMixup*

        Yes, it does! I’ve only been with my company five years, but I know of two positions that had particular candidates in mind that ended up going to other applicants. One was intended to go to an internal candidate and ended up external. Once was intended to go to an external candidate who had previously been a finalist for another position, but ended up going to an internal candidate that no one had expected to apply.

      2. TootsNYC*

        I also know several people who went in to interview for Job A, and then the hiring manager said, “Listen, maybe you’d be interested in Job B, which will come open soon.” And they got Job B.

        I have also interviewed people and ended up with good impressions of several of them. I could only hire one, so I gave encouraging words to the others, put their resumes on top of the stack, forwarded their info to colleagues elsewhere, and in several cases, called and hired them for something later.

        Every interview is a chance to make a good impression with someone who hires. So it’s never a total waste.

        The thing is, the interviewer has an obligation to the candidates to take them seriously.

    3. A/g commenter*

      Also, the person acting in the role may be considered a safe pair of hands to keep things together, but may not have the high level (selling, strategy, leadership, whatever) skills to fill the role long term.

    4. learnedthehardway*

      Agreed – I have done countless recruitment projects for roles that had an interim person in the position. Sure, the interim person is likely a candidate for the position, at least in their own mind. That doesn’t mean they are going to end up getting the role, though.

      Companies will very often put someone in an interim position to keep the lights on, knowing that the person is not ready to hold the whole role or deal with the higher level strategic stuff. They use the interim position as a development exercise (and they should disclose this to the employee at the outset).

      If the employee knocks it out of the park and demonstrates capabilities beyond what had been expected at their level, then they MAY be hired to the permanent role. But odds are that they would have simply been promoted, if they were really ready to take on the entire mandate. The “interim” aspect is specifically there because they are probably NOT ready to take on the entire role.

    5. BikeWalkBarb*

      I got hired for what I think as my first big professional job as an outside candidate. Some time after I applied I learned the position had been written “for” someone on the inside. After I’d been there a while and established a relationship with that person, who was in a role I needed to coordinate with (same functions as me in a different part of the organization), he told me with a smile (I think mostly genuine) that I was in “his” job. It does happen.

      1. FormerRedHeadedStepChild*

        It does happen, and in the case of the LW, I think both they and the person on the temporary contract have good reason to be frustrated with these so-called “normal business practices.” In larger organizations, temporary contract roles can be created as short-term solutions to hiring freezes (since contract roles don’t add to FTE headcount), for budgeting reasons (certain line items allocated for spend with external vendors instead on overhead costs), or just organizational chaos.

        None of those reasons would justify needing to interview other people for someone to continue doing the job they are already doing, when it finally works out to make the administrative change from temporary worker to full-time employee. It’s just pedantry at that point.

    6. Sel*

      Yeah this is common in my org too (I’m in the US). I work at a large university and we nearly always put people in temporary or acting roles when someone leaves and a position becomes open, because the work still needs to get done. I have been on hiring committees where we hired an external candidate over the internal person in the temporary role as well, so just because a candidate is internal doesn’t guarantee them the job.

  5. Bambue*

    LW2 My cat has epilepsy. There is nothing vet ER can do after an episode and it only causes stress for all involved.

    Adding as a data point, though acknowledging both cats and cat health care are different than humans and human healthcare

    1. Brain the Brian*

      Yes, cats and humans have very different standards of care for all conditions. In humans, the goal is nearly always to keep a person alive and as functional as possible. In pets, the goal is to keep them comfortable and fluffy lovebugs for their owners. The ER definitely *can* help many human patients in ways that a pet hospital wouldn’t bother to do for a cat.

      1. sparkle emoji*

        That’s true re. cats vs. people, but with epilepsy specifically the ER often can’t do much to help. In the true emergency situations– head injuries, seizures lasting longer than about 4 minutes– yes call an ambulance. But if LW2’s employees are having a normal-for-them seizure, they should have a say in whether an ambulance is called. For some people with epilepsy, calling an ambulance for a “typical” seizure will do more to calm bystanders than to actually help the epileptic person.

      2. Ohio Duck*

        But in this case you also have humans with epilepsy telling us that nothing can be done for them at the ER either. So I don’t think the distinction needs to be called out over and over, especially since Bambue already acknowledged it.

        1. Brain the Brian*

          Sure, we do have humans in this letter telling us the ER won’t help for a “normal” seizure in their case. The LW needs more details about when a seizure crosses into “abnormal” territory for them, when an ER might be able to help.

          The cat comparison is not particularly helpful, IMO. Vets put animals down without their consent. Their standards of care are simply not the same.

        1. Brain the Brian*

          And the ER *can save* and *has saved* seizure-having me from near-certain death, as another data point. (My seizures are longer than most epileptics’ and cross into the territory of brain damage if not stopped.) People are different. The LW needs more info from their employees.

      4. MigraineMonth*

        Keeping someone alive as long as possible is not always a good thing. My maternal grandfather had terminal cancer and was on hospice care. He passed away peacefully at home.

        The home care helper either did not know or did not respect his Do Not Resuscitate order and called 911. My grandfather was resuscitated just long enough to die again at the hospital, surrounded by strangers who were delivering chest compressions and electrical shocks.

    2. Dahlia*

      I have a friend with epilepsy and some days she has 4 or 5 seizures a day. How many times are you supposed to call an ambulance at that amount??

      1. Zelda*

        I have epilepsy, ambulance cost me $1000 and there was nothing the doctor could do. I usually just need 30 min to get it together. You can be quite out of it after so it is hard to tell people not to call an ambulance, that’s why my work and family know not to.

        1. Bast*

          My younger sister has epilepsy, mostly well controlled with medication at this point. Until we had the right medication match, she would have a grand mal seizure about once every month — I agree that if you have never seen one, they can be terrifying to watch, and the first couple of times, we did call an ambulance. Complicating matters is that she is non-verbal (along with other disabilities) so cannot express if she feels one coming on, the need to go lie down, etc. Her doctor gave us “distress” signs to watch out for in the future to assess whether an ambulance needed to be called, as mostly she would end up in the hospital, they’d monitor her for a few hours, and she’d go right back home, several thousand dollars later. Usually, by the time the ambulance got there the seizure would be over and there was nothing they could do anyway– she was always tired afterward and usually just wanted to go to bed. Being in the hospital did not help in anyway.

        2. Zelda*

          Hi, Zelda, I’m Zelda! How are we this morning? : D

          I already posted above under this nick without realizing someone else was using it today. I can use my old LJ handle, Zelda_888, to differentiate.

      2. Boof*

        As I understand it, only reason to go to the ed for someone with a known seizure disorder is if they don’t come out of it – status epilepticus (Constant unbreaking seizures) require intense management / iv meds /etc until they can stop the seizures.
        If they had a seizure and regain consciousness and it’s not a new problem then no emergency provided they didn’t hurt anything

        1. Brain the Brian*

          Not necessarily the case. I have epilepsy but have been seizure-free for years on my current meds. I definitely want you calling the ambulance if I have one now, because it would indicate something has gone very wrong in my treatment regimen.

      3. Brain the Brian*

        Generally less than if you have a friend who has gone a long time without a seizure and suddenly has a breakthrough one out of the blue. What you’re concerned about is a change from their daily baseline. I suggest asking your friend for info on when to call an ambulance, a full seizure action plan, etc. if you haven’t already discussed this.

    3. dot*

      Adding another data point as someone with a dog with epilepsy. The vet only wants to know about it if a seizure lasts more than a couple minutes or again, if it causes extra injury or something. Otherwise you let it pass and let them calm down afterwards.

    4. Jeanine*

      I can see not calling an ambulance, but what worries me with the epilepsy is the fact that a dr wouldn’t have them drive for a period of time after a seizure, which is logical, because they can be a danger on the road! I would not feel at all good if someone drove after having a seizure.

      1. Nephron*

        The person having a seizure is an adult. They probably know if they are supposed to drive afterwards or not. It might be kind to check if they need a ride or share local cab information with them. But an ambulance is not taking someone home and they can easily end up stranded even further from home after an ambulance trip.

        1. Boof*

          In nys and probably elsewhere one is absolutely NOT supposed to be driving if they’ve had a seizure in the last 6 months, at the least.

      2. Observer*

        but what worries me with the epilepsy is the fact that a dr wouldn’t have them drive for a period of time after a seizure, which is logical, because they can be a danger on the road!

        And you think that people with epilepsy do not know this already? If *you* are aware of the issue, what makes you think that people dealing with epilepsy are not aware? Or do you think that there is some magic in having the doctor say the words “do not drive” that changes everything?

        If the person with epilepsy is a responsible person they are going to avoid driving, doctor or not. If they are not responsible, then it’s not going to make a difference what the doctor says.

        1. Jeanine*

          In a perfect world sure. But it’s very possible that someone would try to avoid being disqualified from driving by speaking to a dr. It happens. I can’t trust everyone does what they are supposed to do. Driving is a privilege that people take way too lightly.

          1. Observer*

            Sure. But the thing is that actually going to the doctor is not likely to change a person’s behavior. The LW mentions in several responses that one of the people specifically mentioned not wanting these restrictions. Which is to say that she *already knows* that this is dangerous. I would be really surprised if hearing it again will wind up changing her behavior.

            1. Arrietty*

              In the UK at least, a doctor can contact the DVLA and get the person’s driving licence suspended.

          2. I Have RBF*

            No.

            If you are diagnosed with a seizure disorder, the doctor tells you not to drive, and will have your license suspended until your seizures are well controlled by medication for at least 6 months. How do I know? I had it happen to me.

            Do some idiots drive anyway? Maybe. But most normal people, if their doctor tells them they are not allowed to drive for their own safety, will listen.

          3. Orv*

            I had a friend with a sleep disorder that she refused to get treated for that reason. Losing her driver’s license would have left her jobless and homeless. Tough position to be in.

            2. Jeanine*

              OH and a wreck that kills her or someone else, or disables them for life is ok? Not to mention the sleep disorder itself could kill her. Time to find a different job and home. And get that treated!!

              1. Orv*

                Yeah, I’m not going to defend her too much. But she was a college adjunct and it’s normal in that world to have two or three jobs simultaneously at different colleges, so you can’t really live near all of them. This was also pre-ACA, so if she’d lost her job she wouldn’t have had any health care to treat it anyway. Like I said, a tough situation. There are many parts of the country where having a driver’s license is not optional.

      3. Boof*

        I think you’d have to handle that the same way you’d handle a colleague or friend trying to go drive themselves home if you’ve been drinking together – do not let them. Call them a cab. Absolutely someone with an active seizure disorder should not be driving; presumably they no that and no need to nose into it unless you know for a fact they are driving themselves.
        At least where I’m at we can only tell people not to drive tho we don’t literally take their keys or call the DMV or anything so it’s not like having the medical system know they had a seizure makes a difference in the legal system as far as driving goes

  6. Asdfasdf*

    #2 – Can more people chime in about their experiences having a known seizure disorder and occasional seizures at work? My school aged daughter has a seizure plan and rescue meds available at school, and a few people are trained to administer her rescue meds if it lasts more than 5 minutes. For adults in the working world – is anyone aware of your seizure plan and rescue meds and available to help? How did you go about setting up support, if yes. Genuinely curious since this could be my daughter’s future, thanks!

    1. coffee*

      At my office, we have dedicated first aid officers who would probably be the first point of call for the rescue meds. Your manager would also know, I think, because there’s a duty of care. Depending on how open you were, you might look to train volunteers from your immediate team/the people who sit near you? Five minutes would usually be enough to get one of the first aiders over to help, though.

      1. ScruffyInternHerder*

        If you were to replace “seizure” with “anaphylactic episodes due to food allergy” I can offer a comparative?

        Our corporate safety officer has a copy of my allergy action plan. These are a standard form in the USA, you bring it to your allergist and they fill it out and sign it. Its meant for school aged children, but its very clear and simple to read. (Is something similar available for seizures? Or is it a custom written plan?) Corporate Safety Officer also knows where I keep my emergency meds, and I’ve verified that yes, he does know how to use them.

        My department is relatively small, and three of my teammates also know where I keep my meds and how to use them if I’m unable to. My manager happens to be one of these three.

        The part I probably don’t have to deal with (and I’m guessing here so apologies if I’m speaking out of turn) is that I actively have to avoid allergens to prevent an episode. So the plan hasn’t been pulled out for actual use in the years that I’ve been here. I’m assuming that there’s more of a chance of seizure episodes that really can’t be prevented? If this is true, I have to imagine the plan is even more thorough, and that more thorough explanation may be needed?

    2. Brain the Brian*

      I have epilepsy, thankfully seizure-free on medication for years now. I started having seizures in my 20s, and one of my earliest was at work. At that point, I definitely *did* need to go to the ER, since we really didn’t know how they would affect me. Even now, I would definitely rather pay for the ambulance and ER visit (and yes, I’m in the U.S., with typical employer-sponsored health insurance) since a breakthrough seizure after this many years seizure-free would be a sign that something in my treatment plan was going very seriously wrong.

      My coworkers all know my seizure action plan. They know where I keep my extra meds. They know to call the ambulance for me and send me to the hospital with the extra meds. They know to lower me to the ground and turn me on my side while waiting for the ambulance. They know how to access the emergency health info screen on my iPhone. I tell every new coworker in my department this information and remind HR about annually. Because sleep deficit seems to have been my biggest contributing factor when I first developed epilepsy, my boss is okay with me flexing my hours some to accommodate more sleep.

      All of that said, no two epileptics’ seizure plans will be exactly the same. I think LW2 and their HR can ask these employees for a full seizure action plan, including information like whether and when to call the ambulance, etc. Simply saying “never call” isn’t enough, in my view, because *everyone* has a point when you really *do* need medical intervention. Even if someone has multiple seizures a day, a seizure lasting more than five minutes can kill them or cause serious brain damage. LW2 needs more information from these two employees, in my view, and they have a responsibility as a representative of their company to ask for it — kindly, of course.

      1. LW2*

        Thanks for your reply!

        I didn’t think to say in my letter, but we’re a small office, a dozen people, and as such, there is no formal HR person – just me doing HR tasks as the business manager.

        Like you mentioned, I know to lower someone to the ground, turn them on their side, and make sure the area is clear. I know not to otherwise physically interfere. I did NOT know there might be rescue medication.

        I understand not calling an ambulance for a single petit mal seizure, but I feel like agreeing to never call an ambulance is irresponsible as a human and an employer. I know it’s not incredibly common, but a seizure that lasts a long time can cause brain damage or even death. I don’t want to be responsible for that through neglect!

        1. Agent Diane*

          I think on top of asking “what can I do?” and “when should I call an ambulance?”, the other thing you can say is that if something really doesn’t fit with the agreed plan, you may need to get medical help. Perhaps by having details of their specialist who you can call first?

          1. Brain the Brian*

            I suggest getting these details from the specialist while developing the initial action plan (and via the employee, of course — don’t just call up their doctor’s office without their consent!). During a seizure is not when you want to be sifting through an automated phone tree for a doctor’s office trying to reach help quickly, and a medical office is not going to release personalized care information to a patient’s manager without the patient’s consent (that would be an enormous HIPPA violation). Some neurologists are really bad at answering the phone quickly, anyway; it took a hospital over three hours to reach mine once even when calling their dedicated line for hospitals and other medical offices!

        2. Lexicon*

          I have epilepsy and I would say that the general rule of thumb for all people who have a seizure is an ambulance if seizures last more than 5 minutes (status epilepticus, which is where you don’t come out of a seizure is life-threatening) AND/OR if the person has sustained an injury as a result of that seizure that you would usually call an ambulance for. Otherwise, getting a seizure plan from the employee (even if it’s fairly informal) is the best thing, but should still be overridden if the above occurs. I am in the UK so an ambulance ride for me is free, but still entirely unnecessary if it’s a short, injury-free seizure. You may also want to ask the employees how they tend to behave after a seizure – some people are completely fine and ok to go about their business, wherease I would need a full 24 hours of sleep and am not able to even talk to people properly for a few hours afterwards. They may need to sleep in a spare office or be sent home in a taxi. The other thing you absolutely need to know is how their seizures usually present. Are they usually 5 minutes long in which case still don’t call an ambulance? Are they full tonic clonic drop-to-the-floor shaking seizures? Or are they partial and they may end up making zero sense in conversation or unable to stop themselves walking into a road? Understanding their ‘normal’ means you will be much better able to judge if an ambulance is required, which is when a seizure deviates from their ‘normal’. Hope that helps!

          1. Nice cup of tea*

            I’m also in the UK so the cost isn’t the issue.

            I’d feel very uncomfortable making the judgement as to how long the seizure was and if you are injured.

            If you are tired afterwards it may not be possible to tell if you have a head injury.

            In the workplace I wouldn’t be taking responsibility for deciding to call or not call.

            The way I see it is that its my job to call and the call handlers job to decide what to do about that call.

            If the call handler decides to dispatch paramedics (not necessarily an ambulance) then they are trained and equipped to check you over and tell you its fine to go home.

            I really don’t think its fair to put that responsibility on someone who isn’t trained for it.

            I’m sorry if that sounds like I don’t respect your wishes, but I don’t wish to make stressful decisions.

            I appreciate that the system is different in other countries.

            Often there is a paramedic in a car or motorbike who can deal with checking people who probably don’t need to go to hospital.

            1. bamcheeks*

              Also in the UK– generally, you should never have to make this judgment call as an ordinary co-worker without any first aider training. This kind of judgment call IS the first-aider’s job, however, and part of first-aider training is knowing and feeling confident to make this call, and being the person who knows and understands the individual action plans for employees who have chronic/ongoing conditions. If you’re not a first-aider but you’re the witness to a seizure or the first person to find someone who has had a seizure, your job is simply to know who the first aiders are and call them ASAP.

              1. Kyrielle*

                Calling 911 for a medical event, your first responder may be a paramedic/EMT on a fire truck depending on your local agencies and their staffing, but yeah, they’re going to send an ambulance also – though if the fire truck arrives earlier and determines the ambulance isn’t needed, they may get canceled before arrival.

                1. Cat Lover*

                  Also, as a paramedic, if we get their and the person is out of the seizure and alert and oriented, they can refuse transport.

          2. Bunny*

            I have epilepsy and I understand the employee asking for an ambulance to not be called. The US healthcare system is awful, and punishes you fiscally for something that isn’t your fault.

            A seizure is frightening to witness, but (I AM SPEAKING FOR MYSELF AND NO ONE ELSE) I am okay. I know my seizure triggers, what needs to be done, and what I need to do. Please listen to me. Every seizure is personal and not the same. Lexicon has good advice and I will not repeat it.

            I’ve also been treated terribly by my former employer, who refused to accommodate my disability, and who paid for it. Please listen to your employee.

            I worked a hard, physical job and kicked ass and took names doing so; we can do it!

            1. Maglev to Crazytown*

              Yes, having an ambulance called sometimes results in BAD things for those with epilepsy. I have heard cases of people being mistaken for being drunk, and drunk tanked, where ther have been deaths because the person could not access their meds for recovery. I myself have been HANDCUFFED and dragged to the ER to be drug tested, because I was aware and conscious with no motor impacts but didn’t make sense to people (I was speaking symbolically/abstractly because my brain during the seizure phase couldn’t pick out the correct words). Thankfully I had a family member intervene fast after that… but so only ended up with permanent nerv damage in my hands because being “arrested” for medical reasons put me into a full blown panic attack.

              So I understand the people here going “but I would still call if that was my coworker,” and “but what about employe liability.” But what is that picture going to look like for the coworker and employer when you’re actions lead to wrongful death or physical injury to an employee having a known non-emergency medical episode?

            2. Humble Schoolmarm*

              The cost of health care in the US is a huge mess. Even if that’s not a concern, though (it isn’t where I live), I don’t want to sit around an er for hours when all I (probably) need is a large amount of sugared beverage and about 20 minutes (type 1 diabetic, not epilepsy).

              Where I work, I’m part of a trio of diabetic experts (another person with T1D and the parent of a T1D kid). We’re all in charge of keeping extra snacks on hand and performing triage in an emergency. We don’t have a specific plan for the adults (although everyone has a preference about their sugar source and snacks afterwards, any simple sugar will do to get you back to able to care for yourself) but the “experts” are in charge of knowing when the basic “make me consume sugar” isn’t enough (that would be if I’m unable to swallow, unconscious or don’t improve post sugar) and 911 is necessary. At times when I didn’t work with an unusually large number of diabetics, I’ve picked a reliable work buddy and a boss/manager to get the “what to do if I’m out of it” speech.

          3. Tentree*

            Thank you for this response! As a doctor, I saw a guy in his 20s who told his friends not to call an ambulance if he has a seizure. They did as he asked but he didn’t stop seizing. For 24 hours.

            Having a plan is important as a seizure that doesn’t stop is an emergency

            1. Brain the Brian*

              Other than seizure while driving / biking / skiing / etc., a seizure that doesn’t stop is my biggest fear as an epileptic. What an awful way to go — and while out having a perfectly normal day. Sigh.

          4. Brain the Brian*

            This is very good advice. Thanks for adding the bit about post-seizure recovery. Before I was stable and seizure-free, I usually needed no more than an hour or so to return to full mental function, but I would be extremely sore for several days after each seizure (my seizures are tonic-clonic, and several minutes of every muscle in the body being at full contraction is… stressful for the muscles, to say the least). This is particularly relevant for a work environment, depending on the type of work your company does.

          5. Emergency Contact?*

            LW 2, could the employees provide an emergency medical contact you could call instead of an ambulance? (Someone who knows their seizures and can gauge the seriousness better than co-workers).

            I took a college art course with a professor who had epilepsy. He had a complete safety plan for us to follow, posted in several places in the studio. Part of the plan was to call his wife immediately and time the seizure. She could make the decision on what to do next. He did have a mild seizure that semester, we followed the plan, and his wife came to take him home.

        3. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

          Can your small office afford to consult a lawyer?
          (If not, you probably can’t afford to be sued if things go badly wrong)
          At the very least, consult your manager or even CEO/owner and preferably get written approval of the seizure plan. You need to cover yourself here.

        4. CowWhisperer*

          I get that you are anxious about this – but well-meaning people who are nervous can make caring for a person with a seizure much worse.

          A colleague of mine had a single tonic-clonic seizure at a conference. It was her first and only (as of the last 20 years) seizure. An RN who was at the conference and I provided care during the seizure. An ambulance was called because she didn’t have a history of epilepsy. The EMT team came loaded for bear because the people who directed the crew into the building informed them that the seizure lasted over 5 minutes, that she stopped breathing during the seizure and had a head injury.

          All of those things would be deeply concerning – but none of them were true. The seizure lasted 90 seconds from the time I arrived. Assuming I took a minute to get into the hallway where it happened that’s 2:30 seconds total and more likely around 1 minute forty seconds. After that, she was in a post seizure recovery state that’s very disoriented and confused – but not a seizure. She vocalized during the seizure which made counting breaths easy and her skin/extremities remained pink. She did have a bit of bloody froth – but a small amount from a mouth injury, not a head injury. Finally, she seized in the lunch line so multiple people heard her mumble something then caught her before she fell and hit anything.

          EMT transported her because she didn’t have a history of epilepsy. We told them she wears contacts and one came out so they should check to see if the other one was in place if she complained of vision issues.

          It was a weird one-off. She was released with a follow-up to a neurologist.

        5. LilBlaster*

          Thank you. My uncle died after an untreated grand mal seizure. In this case, it was because he was disoriented afterwards, found wandering, and wound up in the county psych ward. He should have been taken to the ER immediately.

          1. Brain the Brian*

            Oh my — I’m so sorry. In some ways, the “never treat a seizure” advice feels like it has become almost as dogmatic as the “always call an ambulance” advice for other types of consciousness loss, when the reality is that each person is different and needs a different plan. The proliferation of emergency health info screens on smartphones has made this all much easier to manage over the past few years.

        6. Brain the Brian*

          Rescue medication very much depends on the patient, so find that out from your employees ASAP. My extra meds are not for rescue, but most ERs prefer to keep me on the same generic if I’m there through normal medication time, so it’s helpful for me to have the exact pills with me. Other patients with seizures that are known to be long-lasting may have actual rescue meds as part of their plan to prevent brain damage (although it sounds like that’s probably *not* the case for your two employees). Rescue meds are usually administered intravenously since most people can’t swallow during a seizure, and for that reason they’re not that common. Find out either way.

          Kind of counterintuitively, the level of intervention you need to provide may actually be higher for certain types of petit mal seizures. If the person is wandering around with no awareness, you need to make sure they stay in a safe spot — for instance — while in a grand mal, we just drop to the ground and that’s that.

          Other commenters have mentioned below consulting a lawyer. You might want to do that, especially since you don’t have HR to track this sort of thing, both to understand your and your company’s liability during a seizure (both with and without an action plan in place) as well as to make sure you don’t accidentally cross any lines while asking employees to build out an action plan with you. In any case, definitely make it clear to the employees that you are not going to punish them in any way and that all of this is to make sure they are safe at work and that you don’t accidentally rack up medical bills on their behalf.

          Good luck! Thanks for writing in!

      2. Caroline*

        What would be your recommendation in an area where first responder arrival times might be extended? If I only call if a seizure lasts more than five minutes, but an ambulance takes twenty minutes to arrive, would that change your plan at all? Or does the 911 dispatcher also probably have instructions that might help or a way of getting the ER on the line for help in the meantime?

        PS, thanks for sharing your experience.

        1. BigLawEx*

          This was my first thought. In LA response times have come down…to on average of 14 minutes. Waiting five minutes makes that nearly 20 as a worst case scenario (bad traffic, far flung location of the city).

          Liability feels like a real issue – as the liability for death/injury is on the employer whereas liability for cost of the ambulance falls on the employee…

        2. sparkle emoji*

          This also feels like something (general)you should ask the individual with epilepsy about. They may have thought about it/have some experiences that would inform how they’d want to handle things. If there’s an HR consultant or lawyer LW2 could afford to bring in for advice on the legal side that’d also be helpful. Either way, probably not a one size fits all.

        3. Brain the Brian*

          Factor that into the seizure action plan that you discuss with each employee. My plan is different at home (fully-staffed fire station and ambulance three blocks away, hospital about 15 minutes) than it is at work (fire station about 10 minutes away, hospital four blocks) than it is when visiting my mother (volunteer EMS about 20 minutes away with up to an hour response time, hospital 35 minutes away). There is no one right answer, so make sure to clearly document what the employee prefers at each decisions point.

    3. Allornone*

      I don’t have a seizure disorder, but once worked for a non-profit that served people with seizure disorders. The employee is right. Most of the time, going to the hospital is unnecessary. While I’m guessing the employee is insured, in the U.S., a lot of people still aren’t, especially since seizure disorders can sometimes make decent employment prohibitive, and a trip to the hospital can be crippling.

      The rule of thumb they taught me was that if a seizure lasts longer than five minutes, then call the ambulance. Otherwise, it’s probably not necessary. If someone is having a tonic clonic (grand mal) seizure, roll them on their side and try to support them without restraining them too much. NEVER put anything in their mouth. There is a myth they can swallow their tongue. It is just a myth. You cannot swallow your tongue. Putting something in a seizing person’s mouth only risks doing damage to their teeth and mouth.

      1. Kyrielle*

        Not for seizures, but I or a family member have had to be transported by ambulance three times in the past five years. And despite our very good health insurance, we paid most of the cost out of pocket for those trips because the ambulance company here isn’t “in-network”. It’s not like we have a choice of ambulance providers when one is called, for goodness’ sake, but the insurance doesn’t have a negotiated rate with them and will only pay whatever-the-heck they consider reasonable for out-of-network.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          It is absolutely insane that we’re somehow supposed to be checking that the ambulance, hospital and every doctor at the hospital are all in-network for our insurance *in the middle of a medical emergency*.

          (Not that it actually matters, because ambulances often have rules about going to the nearest hospital, even if it isn’t in-network. One of the richest countries in the world, and we call an Uber for medical emergencies because at least it will go where we ask it to.)

          1. Kyrielle*

            Especially since what ambulance service you get is pretty much determined by who the locale (city/county usually) you’re in contracts with.

            There’s often exceptions to insurance coverage to treat out-of-network hospitals as in-network for actual life-or-death emergencies (but not if, you know, it wasn’t actually that bad even if you/the bystanders/the paramedics thought it might be), but you still frequently get nailed on the actual ambulance ride. Sigh.

            I’m fortunate that my nearest hospital (and second-nearest) are in network for my insurance, at least. Otherwise, when I broke my kneecap, I might have been obliged to try to get sent elsewhere, since that’s not immediately life-threatening. (Do not recommend it, however. It is definitely unpleasant.)

            1. MigraineMonth*

              I have great health insurance thanks to my union. I still regularly have to call my insurance because of an inexplicable charge.

              My in-network PCP orders a blood draw (fully covered) for a standard blood panel (fully covered) and also orders an additional test? Suddenly I’m not only paying for the additional test, I’m also no longer covered for the blood draw.

              Or my in-network PCP orders a chest x-ray (fully covered) to rule out issues before an upcoming operation (prior authorized, fully covered, at an in-network hospital) but the person who reads the x-ray happens to be out-of-network so I’m charged $70.

              Both of these happened at a community access provider, meaning it mostly serves people who cannot afford a $50 or $500 surprise.

    4. Zelda*

      I have epilepsy, my last seizure was I. February and I have changed medication since. I have emergency spray for if it lasts longer than 5 minutes but haven’t used it. People who are around me the most are work know. One thing the neurologist always tell me is how diligent you have to be about your medication and taking it at the same time everday.

    5. Hyaline*

      I would speculate, as well, though I don’t know and LW would have to look into it further, that a seizure plan on file could protect the company in terms of liability.

    6. Marzipan Shepherdess*

      As a retired special education teacher, I’ve helped hundreds of adult students through thousands of seizures; here’s what helps:

      1. Do NOT put ANYTHING in the person’s mouth! (They CAN’T swallow their own tongue
      and putting/forcing anything in their mouth is dangerous.)

      2. If they’re wearing a button-down collar, open the first couple of buttons.

      3. Move any furniture that’s right next to them out of the way so that flailing arms or legs
      won’t strike it.

      4. Only call 911 if the seizure lasts 5 minutes or longer OR if the person has one seizure
      that subsides and then goes into another one (Google “status epilepticus” for more
      information about this.)

      5. Maintain a calm, confident attitude to keep worried bystanders calm and confident as
      well; as the letters above show, well-meaning but ignorant passers-by can inadvertently
      hurt the person more than they help!

      Most adults who have seizures do indeed know what they need to stay safe – respect their wishes and do NOT try to force them to go to the hospital if they insist they don’t need to go there! And a note to doctors: If a patient with seizures DOES turn up at your ER, do NOT bawl them out for being there – “first, do no harm”, remember?

      1. Maglev to Crazytown*

        Maintaining a calm, positive, and confident demeanor is important for the person with epilepsy too. Some types of seizures have awareness with them as well, so people are panicking, they can make it worse for the person by essentially pushing them into a panic attack on top of the seizure.

    7. JanetM*

      I don’t have epilepsy; my husband does. He would occasionally have a seizure at work (his type is partial complex, not tonic-clonic, so he never lost consciousness). He worked in a grocery store.

      One day a new store manager called me at work and said, “Your husband had a seizure. You need to come get him right away.”

      I said, “I am in the middle of something I cannot drop, and anyway it’s a 30-minute drive for me to come pick him up. Best thing to do is put him in the dairy cooler and give him a Gatorade. I’ll be there as soon as I can.”

      Manager sputtered.

      I said, “I cannot interrupt what I’m working on. He needs to be cool and not overstimulated. Put him in the dairy cooler – it’s cool and dim and no one will bother him – give him a Gatorade – his electrolytes are shot – and I’ll be there as soon as I can.”

      Manager sputtered.

      I said, “The longer you keep me on the phone, the longer it will be before I get there. Put him in the dairy cooler and give him a Gatorade. I’ll be there as soon as I can,” and hung up.

      I finished my urgent and immediate task, let my manager know I had to leave, and drove down to the store to pick him up. I found him, as I hoped, sitting on a crate in the dairy cooler, with a Gatorade, and the manager being fluttery around him.

      I took him home and put him to bed, where he slept for a few hours and woke up right as rain. He told me later that he had a long talk with her the next day and assured her that he was fine, and I had done the right thing. I am still pretty sure that manager thinks I am the worst wife in the history of ever.

      1. Maglev to Crazytown*

        Oh a spouse that gets it… thankfully mine is like that too. “Give Maglev a Gatorade and/or potato chips to much on.” I have told coworkers if I am acting batty and confused, that is what I need, NOT an ambulance.

        Thankfully I am almost entirely aware of th auras now, and can go preemptively do this to head them off. Electrolytes are a lot of people’s trigger.

        1. skylight*

          In the late 90s (and in the US), I took an art class with a professor who had epilepsy. On the first day of class, he went over his safety plan with us. It had the usual details (lay on side, check for unobstructed airway) and included calling his wife and briefing her on the situation so she could make the call on next steps and if an ambulance was needed. I think we were supposed to give him saltine crackers when he regained consciousness. He actually did have a mild siezure during class that semester. We followed the plan and watched over him until his wife could come (she was a professor too). Never occurred to us that the wife was callous because she couldn’t drop everything and get there in 5 min, but this was long before cell phones.

    8. The Coolest Clown Around*

      I have a similar condition that causes blood pressure drops causing me to pass out and occasionally to spasm. I have found that having a plan and communicating clearly what might happen, what it means, and what looks “normal” for me is the most effective way. That last part is more important than it seems, even though it can feel like a sacrifice of privacy, because giving people a frame of reference for normal/not normal and clearly spelling out what an actual 911 emergency might look like helps keep them from worrying that something else is happening or they’re misinterpreting a real emergency. It also helps to have part of the plan involve calling someone NOT 911, who knows a lot about my condition. When I was in undergrad, when my condition started, I gave professors and close friends my dad’s phone number so that if they ever weren’t sure they could call him BEFORE calling an emergency line. At work, my supervisor and a few work friends have my husband’s number. When I’m out I try to bring my husband or a friend with me, and I don’t do routine tasks like grocery shopping if I feel unwell (I know many people with seizures don’t get that kind of warning, but it’s worth mentioning for those who do – you can’t spend your whole life holed up in your house, but you don’t have to push yourself to “keep up” when you don’t feel well. Freezers are your friend.). Key people to clue in: your supervisor, your boss, your boss’s boss, any medical personnel in the building, and anybody who will work physically near you frequently.

      1. Synaptically Unique*

        One of my employees has POTS, and she’s given us very clear instructions on how to help her (which doesn’t include calling for help). She’s trying to get in with an EDS specialist in the hopes they have some ideas.

    9. Turquoisecow*

      Hi, I have epilepsy and so does my 4 year old daughter. We are both well controlled with medication and it’s been years so the risk of either of us having a seizure is low.

      I agree with all the things others have said – learn some basic seizure first aid and abide by what the person says works. If I was to go to hospital after a seizure, they’d probably administer anti-seizure meds (I have a rescue drug but if I hadn’t taken it yet they’d give it to me there), maybe monitor for a bit or have their on staff neurologist talk to me, then send me home, while charging me thousands. Same with my daughter.

      Daughter has a rescue med and seizure plan which is on file with her school nurse, who is experienced enough with kids that she knows what to do. Her neurologist wrote up the plan, which is basically what others have said below, time it, keep stuff away from her, only call a doctor if it’s longer than 5 minutes. Obviously if that happened they would call us (me and her dad) and we would immediately call her neurologist because that means her medication isn’t working and we may need to change it or increase the dose or something.

      I encourage anyone who is saying “I can’t *not* call an ambulance!” to read up on epilepsy and seizure first aid. Obviously if the person is NOT epileptic and has no history of seizures, calling 911 is an obvious reaction, but if someone has a history of this and they have directly told you how to handle it, their wishes should be respected.

      It’s heartening to see the good advice people are giving here.

    10. EpiGal*

      Bracelet with clear call to action. Cell phone with #1 and #2 family contact visible even when screen is locked. Instructions on file with HR, boss and in a cube.

  7. Jet Blu*

    If you complain to HR about wasting your time, they will certainly never consider you for future employment. Job searching is tiresome but lodging complains about common-place things that only involve a few hours of time input, just puts you in a negative light.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      This is true, but I’m going to push back on the idea that this is just “a few hours of time”. For a lot of people to go to interviews, they may have to take time off work, manage transportation issues, arrange for childcare, etc. Then there was the time to prepare their resume and cover letter, enter all the same information into an online application form, etc. It’s not just a few hours of time! I wish it were just that.

      1. Nonym*

        I completely agree. It’s true that you’re unlikely to be hired by that company if you push back with HR practices. But it’s a bit dismissive to say “oh it’s just a few hours” like it’s no biggie when we are talking about 3 separate interviews, with a task, at least (LW didn’t say third and final interview, just third).

        That’s a bit much given their sheepish answer, which gives the impression that there is likely no open position. They didn’t say “there’s currently an employee filling the position in the interim but nothing is decided yet and all the candidates invited to the third round genuinely have a chance” or some other similar attempt at reassuring LW. They essentially said “HR is making us do this” and LW got the sense that the internal candidate was already chosen.

    2. Orv*

      If a particular company makes a habit of wasting my time I’m unlikely to apply to them again. If they don’t respect me now they probably won’t after I’m hired, either.

  8. Jet Blu*

    My friend’s daughter died after a seizure of several minutes. Lack of oxygen. Never promise anyone you will not call 911 if you are concerned for their lives. I’ve dealt with many seizures in my line of work and they are always alarming and are not always cut and dry.

    1. Observer*

      There are different kinds of seizures.

      The thing is that in this particular situation, the LW would know what is going on, especially if the employee(s) tell the LW what to look out for.

      Sure, they are really scary, but some are more dangerous than others. And also, some have more dangerous causes than others. But, again, these people already have a diagnosis, so that’s not the issue.

      1. Brain the Brian*

        The LW needs full seizure action plans from their employees, outlining all steps to take for a “normal” seizure as well as when a seizure progresses past “normal” and when they really do need an ambulance called. HR does generally have the right to insist on this as a matter of legal liability.

        Signed,
        An epileptic who is now thankfully seizure-free for several years

        1. Suzie*

          Absolutely. I would be extremely uncomfortable with an edict to NEVER call an ambulance. I would be comfortable with a flow chart or checklist type action plan detailing basically when to worry.

          Has the seizure lasted more than X minutes?
          Have they hit their head while falling?
          When the seizure has finished, do they have any of X concerning symptoms?

          I completely agree that some medical conditions do not need an ambulance ride every time. I also feel very strongly that the employees are trying to make this a judgment call on the LW’s part and that is very unreasonable.

          I really think it’s fine to require more information from them. I briefly had a friend with epilepsy and frequent seizures (sadly he moved away and we lost touch) and in one of our first meet ups I asked him what I should do if he had a seizure and he told me and then we moved on with our lives but it meant I could feel relaxed about meeting up with him and not worried that he would have a seizure and I would do something stupid. Never happened during our brief friendship but I felt it an important and reasonable conversation to have. (FWIW, it was basically “do nothing except move furniture away unless X or Y happens”).

          The tone is, “I appreciate that you don’t want an ambulance called for an ordinary seizure. However, I’m sure you appreciate that things can sometimes be more serious. Let’s go through what would and would not be concerning during a seizure in order to make sure everyone is comfortable should it ever happen.” Kind but firm.

          1. LW2*

            Thanks everyone above for your thoughts!

            Of course we’re an office of a dozen people so I do the HR tasks though I am not HR, per se, so there’s no one else to bring this to. I didn’t know there are rescue medications or to ask about a full action plan. When I tried to parse out some details with both employees, they were unwilling to do so, but your second paragraph questions were what I was thinking too.

            Of course I worry about any liability for my family’s business if they had a seizure that caused brain damage and I didn’t get them the right help fast enough. But I also couldn’t live with myself if I thought that they needed emergency care and didn’t get it for them, because they told me not to a year and a half ago. If something happened to them as the result of a seizure during work hours, “they told me not to call an ambulance” wouldn’t help me sleep at night.

            FWIW, I know not all seizures require an ambulance. But “never ever” feels inappropriate for something that *could* be fatal, even if it isn’t common.

            1. allathian*

              Yes, I think that you need to be firm with employees like this that you can’t take the responsibility of them getting brain damage or dying through lack of care when the seizure’s more serious than usual, and that they’ll need to work with you to establish the boundaries of what is and isn’t an ordinary seizure that doesn’t need an ambulance called.

              Would it be possible in the US to make this a condition of employment?

            2. Suzie*

              I wonder if you have an epilepsy charity where you live that could provide a boilerplate workplace action plan, or a conversation template. In the UK, we have Epilepsy Action among others. They may have a simple outline of standard advice they can email you if you ask and it could provide a starting point for what to ask.

            3. Roland*

              If you are defacto HR, you could consider consulting with an employment lawyer to figure out how firm you can be in getting what you need etc. Like are you allowed to say “I need more specific guidance” or which details or documentation you can ask for and so forth.

              1. BigLawEx*

                This ^^^ – especially with the unwillingness (understandable to some extent) to provide further information.

              2. Emily*

                Yes, I was coming here to say the same thing. It sounds like consulting with an employment lawyer could be helpful.

              3. sparkle emoji*

                Yeah, some sort of ADA adjacent process where you get some doctor approved guidelines seem like an appropriate ask, but check with an expert.

            4. Cj*

              it is of course the employees right to not give you any more details about their medical condition. but if they are not willing, then there’s no way I would agree not to call an ambulance.

              1. Dust Bunny*

                Yeah, I think this is the balance: They can decline to give more information or directives, but then they can’t insist on controlling the response. You can’t demand that people act/don’t act without giving them any information or context.

                When I was on the bus last week the man behind me was having trouble speaking and seemed a little disoriented (or maybe just scared). He was on facetime with his wife, who was upset and trying to get through traffic to meet him at the bus stop. The woman next to him assured the wife that we would wait with him until she got there. But I think if she hadn’t been there to explain what was going on someone would have called 911 because we had no way of knowing whether this was a known and manageable thing for him or if he was having a stroke or something and needed help sooner.

              2. Analyst*

                This. I would outright tell them this. If they won’t discuss an action plan, then the action plan is I’m calling an ambulance because I am not taking chances and making uninformed judgement calls about other people’s health.

            5. Insert Clever Name Here*

              I wonder if the organization could also cover the cost of the ambulance in the event the employee is transported? It might go some way to making them feel like you’re not disregarding their preference just to make yourself feel better (I know that’s not why you’d call an ambulance) if they knew they wouldn’t personally bear the financial repercussions of that decision.

              1. Ginger Baker*

                ^I think this would be helpful (even if the wasted time is frustrating) and personally think this should be the standard.

              2. sb51*

                This was my thought—cover any costs and hassle of an unnecessary ER visit, including figuring out a ride home for the employee.

                Especially since an employee with a seizure disorder is much more likely to have taken public transit and may have no reasonable way to get home at an odd hour. (That could be the company calling a cab or finding another employee to volunteer to drive, but make it just be an annoying day rather than a financial and logistical nightmare.)

            6. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

              Especially as this is your own family’s business, you cannot risk being hammered by a damages suit if things go wrong; so you need to take legal advice.

              If this advice is that the lawyer will help you develop a seizure plan, then the employees must be told to provide all the info the lawyer needs, as a condition of their continued employment.
              (If the lawyer says no plan would completely remove your legal risk, I suggest you agree to pay the ambulance costs rather than fire them but state that you will always call the ambulance if you judge it necessary)

            7. Observer*

              When I tried to parse out some details with both employees, they were unwilling to do so,

              That’s not reasonable on their part. I really do understand that people need and deserve some privacy, but in a case like this, they have to share enough information with you to be able to handle the situation.

              If this comes up again, the lists that others with epilepsy have mentioned should be helpful. It’s specific and gives you all the information you need, without getting into details that you don’t need.

              At that point, if someone refuses to give you answers, you can only do the best you can in a given set of circumstances.

              I would suggest putting it in writing, and having them sign off on it, so that everyone is on the same page and has a shared understanding of what the expectations are.

            8. SuperBB*

              I agree that Never Ever is too strong, so you need to get more details about their specific disorder. For “typical” seizures (specific to that patient), insurance often won’t cover the ER visit, ambulance, or hospitalization, but they will for “extreme” seizures, like if they stop breathing, the seizure lasts more than five minutes, it’s a different kind of seizure than usual, etc.

            9. AMS*

              This has been an interesting discussion – my ex husband was epileptic, and had daily seizures. People always wanted to send him to the ER and we had to be VERY firm about not doing so – to them it was a big event, to us it was a daily thing. The ER cant do anything, and often want to do extra tests, and when he’s already under medical supervision and on drugs there isnt anything new to be added except yet MORE medical debt (the amount of money an MRI costs…. horrific). We never had a specific action plan though, aside from if he fell during a seizure and was injured in a way that required medical care he’d go (he fell every time, and injuries were frequent – usually smashing his head on some hard object nearby). It sucks, its scary, its unfortunately a way of life for some people.

      2. Feeling Feline*

        Not necessarily. It sounded like airway obstruction if death was minutes rather than hours, so any seizures can cause it. To be fair, good first aid is way more important than calling an ambulance in that context, even then epileptic people are not immuned from airway obstructions.

  9. Anonforthis*

    My last serious interview required a time commitment of 15 hours. A phone screen, an informal interview, a timed task, an exercise and a final interview. For a £30k a year job.

    I didn’t get it.

    I am begging employers – if the interview is fake / a formality, at least have the courtesy to keep it brief.

    1. Nicosloanica*

      This was my big takeaway too. I’m sad that so many employers have jumped on the “let’s have them do a task” bandwagon, as (although I realize it may be a good practice for hiring) it can be extremely burdensome and stressful for the applicant, especially when done poorly – which so many are. Few employers can reign themselves in from adding more and more requirements and time investment to the task since there’s no downside to *them* in having it be as thorough and comprehensive as possible. Even offering small hourly compensation, which relatively few employers do, doesn’t make it better to me. Since you are only going to hire one person, you are knowingly wasting the time and effort of most of your pool, particularly your very close second and third choices. I would suggest only doing a task as a tiebreaker between your top two. And if you are secretly planning on hiring an internal candidate, don’t make everyone else do the exercise.

    2. Figaro*

      Exactly this.

      It can make me wonder if they know how to interview (because you don’t need that much time and work if you do) – which in turn makes me wonder about their ability to manage.

    3. Nonym*

      Agreed. I understand that you might want or need to post a job opening even if you already have a strong internal candidate doing the job in the interim. But if that’s the case and the process is likely to be a formality leading to a hiring a prechosen candidate, you need to keep it short. Post the opening and interview the top 3-5 strongest applications, depending on the resumes you get. That’s enough for your purposes.

      Only do a second round if after the first, you are genuinely hesitating between the internal hire and one or several other candidates.

  10. Sagegreen is still my favorite color.*

    I have epilepsy and have asked my job not to call an ambulance if I have a seizure as there is nothing they can do. My job told me they were legally obliged to call an ambulance.

    I have told them how to handle it if I have one. (Do not put anything in my mouth and turn me on my side if it looks like my tongue is blocking my airway. Only call an ambulance if I have one seizure that doesn’t stop or have more than one. Please don’t let others stare at me, as I might lose bladder control.)

    Personally I usually have a warning feeling called an aura so I always give someone a heads up but I haven’t had an actual seizure in years. Just auras. Not everyone is the same though so go by what the employee says they want if you can. Ambulances are expensive.

    1. Ashley*

      I do wonder if you have a seizure at work and the company calls the ambulance if it shouldn’t be workers comp. Different states vary, but if you are only stuck with the bill because it happened at work it seems like the company should pay. They want to limit liability they should pay for it.

      1. Cmdrshprd*

        “but if you are only stuck with the bill because it happened at work it seems like the company should pay. They want to limit liability they should pay for it”

        it wouldn’t be just because a person was at work, a person would still be “stuck” with the bill if it happened anywhere else.

        Honestly if it happened anywhere people would not have the background info and an ambulance would almost certainly be provided.

        Wanting to avoid legal/moral liability is understandable and reasonable.

        Idk if it would legally be workers comp, but don’t think it should, unless something at worked specifically caused it like employee was made to stare at strobe light, but otherwise if it’s just part of an employees condition that happens randomly and it just happened to be at work should not be workers comp.

        Saying never do X is a big/impossible ask.

        1. Freya*

          There was a case in South Australia in 2016 where an employee was in a boat on a river as part of employment, had a seizure, and in the process of being pulled to safety by co-workers, his ankle was broken.

          Workers’ comp originally declined his claim on the grounds that the injury was as a result of his epilepsy and that had nothing to do with his employment. The Employment Tribunal held that the broken ankle was not due to the seizure, but by the response necessitated by where he was, which was a direct result of his employment, and thus the employee’s challenge to the worker’s comp decision was successful and his claim was ultimately accepted.

  11. Observer*

    #2 – Epilepsy.

    Please do NOT call an ambulance. Yes, get this in writing from them and make sure that HR has it, and a copy should stay with you. If HR needs some more documentation (eg a note from their doctor), then have them get that. But please don’t allow your judgement to over-ride theirs. Especially since it’s pretty clear that you don’t really understand the situation.

    The reason they don’t want to go to the ER is not because they will be told not to drive. You can be sure that they are already well aware of the limitations on their driving. Also, while they may be worried about the expense, that’s not the only issue, although it’s significant. The simple fact is that the ER cannot do anything for an epileptic seizure, which means that it’s a huge waste of money. Worse, the whole ER experience can be pretty terrible – at a time where they may very well be really tired out and feeling pretty poorly. I don’t blame ERs, but it really is something that people reasonably want to avoid if they can. And in many cases, by the time the ambulance shows up the seizure itself will be done, which makes the whole thing a bit of a waste of resources.

    Alison is right that you should ask them under what, if any, circumstances, you should call an ambulance. Also, what does a seizure look like vs something else going on. And what is the safest way to handle a seizure if it happens.

    1. GoodReasonsNotToCall*

      Yes, it’s the waste of time coupled with the horrible experience coupled with knowing there’s absolutely nothing they can do coupled with the expense coupled with the stress including the stress of figuring out how to get home coupled with a bunch of other things.

      And, as I noted above, there are other medical issues where it makes no sense to go to the ER or call the paramedics. Just because something is scary for bystanders doesn’t mean it needs immediate attention from paramedics, doctors, etc.

      1. Despachito*

        I think it is primarily up to the sick person to be upfront and explicit to people they regularly interact with about the conditions under which they should not/should call the ambulance (such as one contributor above about their back condition).

        I think that in this case the need to know overrides the privacy reasons. A decent person with no medical training would be scared if they see a seizure and were just told “do nothing”. Seizures are scary and can potentially be dangerous (as above the kid who unfortunately passed because of a seizure). I understand the frustration of an ambulance being called without being able to do anything for the person, and that it should be avoided.

        I think it would be fair to the people involved and beneficial to both parties to give them information what may happen and tell them what to do in what case. If I was the OP I would not want to call the ambulance unnecessarily on the coworker but I would absolutely want to ask them if there are any warning signs that this is not a “normal” seizure and what should be done in that case.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          In the examples that have been shared, the individual with the condition has taken all reasonable steps to inform those around them. They’ve informed managers and coworkers. They wear a medical alert bracelet and have documentation on them. When the paramedics show up, they try to refuse care.

          It sounds like they’re doing more than their share, and the rest of us need to do a better job of staying calm and following instructions. If they’re wearing a medical alert bracelet or similar, check it. If the person is communicating, assume that they know what’s best for their condition rather than relying on TV tropes. If there’s an established care plan that says not call the ambulance unless the seizure lasts 5 minutes, don’t override that without a good reason (e.g. injury or obstructed breathing). If the person refuses treatment, don’t treat them like they’re crazy or a child.

          Yeah, watching someone have a seizure or cry out in pain is going to be scary if it’s brand new, but if we actually want to *help the person* (rather than just make ourselves feel better) we have to at least make an effort to figure out what would actually help.

    2. D*

      The implication that an epileptic would…decide to keep driving when it’s dangerous because the other option is “inconvenient” is honestly mildly offensive, as someone who had a delayed driver’s license due to an epilepsy misdiagnosis that was eventually corrected. The person is probably not trying to keep it a secret; the ER just is not helpful and they can bring it up with their neurologist next time they see them–or even call them up for an appointment ASAP.

      But an ER is mostly for stabilizing patients in danger, which an epileptic seizure probably is not.

      It might look scary, but for someone with a seizure disorder, it’s a lot like calling an ambulance when someone with diabetes has low blood sugar. Very, very rarely it’s necessary, but you can probably just give them any medications they need and wait for them to sort themselves out.

      People with chronic conditions know how to deal with their chronic conditions.

      1. Suzie*

        I think comparing it to diabetes is very helpful. Most of the time blood sugar issues can be sorted without needing an ambulance ride, but occasionally it can get very serious and need medical attention. “Never call anyone ever no matter what” is not a good treatment plan for diabetes, and nor is “call an ambulance at the first opportunity”. If X happens, then do Y is a much more sensible arrangement.

        1. sparkle emoji*

          Yep, and for either one, I think it’s fair to ask the individual for where their “call the ambulance” line is and how to spot they’ve reached that point. Alison’s suggestion to ask more questions seems appropriate. Don’t jump to ambulance always, but be informed about when that is called for.

        2. Observer*

          If X happens, then do Y is a much more sensible arrangement.

          Agreed. And getting that kind of information is really the best that the LW can do, I would say.

          I see that they have commented, and they say that they actually tried to get that information. I hope that if this comes up again the questions that people have mentioned will be useful and that the (prospective) employee is more reasonable. The LW mentioned that their employees did not want to share relevant information, and that’s not realistic.

        3. Maglev to Crazytown*

          I agree entirely as an epileptic. The comparison to diabetes is an extremely good one.

      2. Roland*

        OP commented below that the driving thing is not an assumption they are making, it was directly said by one of the employees.

      3. Myrin*

        Re: your first paragraph, OP confirmed in a comment below that one of the employees in question did indeed decide to keep driving and didn’t report her seizure so she could continue to do so, so OP didn’t just randomly come to that conclusion because she wanted to be judgmental.

      4. I Pay Taxes, Too*

        T1 diabetics can die from (severely) low blood sugar. (I suppose a T2 diabetic on insulin is also in danger if they overdose.) Of course, low blood sugar is easy to address if you are in a situation where sugar is available, and if the individual is aware what is happening, but it can very quickly progress if it isn’t recognized and immediately dealt with.

        For that reason, I’m not sure if it’s the best example here – or, maybe it is, actually. Because a seizure can also have unlikely, unexpected, catastrophic outcomes. If it is a “run of the mill” seizure and the employee requested not to call an ambulance, then please don’t, but the problem is in not knowing if a given seizure will be “run of the mill” (whatever that means for the individual).

        The situation in this letter is much, much more complicated than “honor the employee’s wishes” and frankly I think it is above the paygrade of this blog. Like, this is the kind of scenario/topic I would imagine coming up at a debate competition, or even in a law school assignment about liability. Anybody approaching this as a simple, straightforward problem with an absolute answer hasn’t thought about it enough.

        1. Humble Schoolmarm*

          I think this is why the person with the condition needs to be fairly open to describing where the line between emergency and non-emergency is. I would be furious if someone called 9-1-1 for a “hey, you’re acting a little funny, do you need some sugar/to check your blood?” prompt (which is as bad as it’s ever been for me at work). If I was incoherent, but still able to respond to commands and drink juice or pop, then I would understand someone calling for help (because it is a scary situation that can get worse quickly) but still not thrilled (because when the sugar kicks in 20 min later, I’ll be fine).

      5. Humble Schoolmarm*

        The comparison to diabetes is spot on, but I do want to throw on my favourite public service announcement, unless you can both ascertain and interpret blood sugar readings, go for the sugar, not the medication. A diabetic emergency is much more likely to be due to lack of sugar than anything else, and administering blood sugar lowering medication is only going to make it worse if the person doesn’t have enough sugar in their systems already. Sugar tablets, hard candy, pop or juice is your best bet. If the person has a high enough blood sugar to pass out, they need medical attention (seriously, do not inject me with random amounts of insulin, it’s not an epipen). Likewise, while you can give a medication called glucagon for extreme low reactions, that’s something that’s also best left to the professionals (unless you’ve had glucagon training).

    3. JSPA*

      The same goes for other conditions. Someone with (e.g.) balance issues, a trick joint (etc) may topple over far more frequently than most people. When you hit the ground several times a week, you learn how to fall, and almost never end up with more than superficial bruises and sprained dignity. And you simply cannot live life being hauled off to the hospital, repeatedly, to fulfill someone else’s insurance requirement.

      For stores and public buildings to have a blanket policy of, “customer on floor means calling an ambulence,” even over that customer’s cogent protestations, is (at best) a huge waste of ambulence time.

      Some ambulencecrews operate under guidelines that are not far from kidnapping, or will bill even if you refuse the ride, once they get your name and address. I have escaped being charged for “call out”of an ambulance that I didn’t call, by not only refusing the ride but also refusing to give my name and address. But then (despite telling them the surrounding streets and names of current elected officials) they threatened to bring me in for that “amnesia.”

      They are lifesaving professionals! I don’t mean to detract from that. But the business model can be… something else.

    4. Dog momma*

      The ER can certainly do more for seizures than just stand there. Labs drawn, imaging as needed, seizure meds for breakthrough. Follow up with doc..maybe meds need adjusting or changed…

      1. Dahlia*

        You can’t say that about specific people. Specific people know if the ER will actually do any of that, or if any of that would be useful at all.

      2. Peanut Hamper*

        ER docs are not going to tell you your seizure meds need adjusting or changing. They are going to say in most of these cases that there is nothing they can really do and tell you to follow up with your regular doctor.

        Seizures may look scary to onlookers, but the person with the condition is the one who knows their condition best. If they say they don’t need an ambulance, we should trust them with that. Calling an ambulance and then incurring thousands of dollars of bills on their behalf because we’re scared is unreasonable and unwarranted.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Calling an ambulance and then incurring thousands of dollars of bills on their behalf because we’re scared is unreasonable and unwarranted.

          2. EpiGal*

            As someone who is a diagnosed epileptic, the ER can’t do much. Even when I had my first grand mal, they did minimum and passed me to an appointment with neurologist 3 days later. My seizures are under control, I’m cleared to drive if and until I have another one. I wear a bracelet thay says call 911 if seizure lasting for 5 min or more, and to call a family member asap. They will know how to get them to their neurologist who knows their history and what to do. The ER can help someone in status epilepticus. This is when the seizure is prolonged and one medication is not stopping it, so docs throw everything possible to pause it. I was warned about it, hopefully never gets to that.

      3. Turquoisecow*

        ER docs will administer emergency anti-seizure medication, if the patient hasn’t already had it (many epileptics have a rescue drug we take in case of a seizure, which stops the seizure activity in the brain, and an action plan should be to have them take it as soon as possible when the seizure is over but if that has not happened the ER will probably do it). Imaging and blood work aren’t going to reveal anything they didn’t already know. The only way to learn about a seizure is by having EEG monitors on while it’s happening – unless there’s a tumor, an MRI or CT is not likely to reveal anything. The patient will be advised to follow up with their own neurologist and discharged with a big bill and half the day wasted.

        Source: me, an epileptic and parent to one.

        1. EpiGal*

          Also, the cause of seizures in unknown in 50% of cases. This means 50% of time neurologist won’t figure it out and the ER definitely won’t.

    5. fhqwhgads*

      Also: sending someone in an ambulance to ER when there’s nothing to ER can do not only wastes the time of the person and EMTs being sent, it takes those resources away from other emergencies in progress the ER could actually be helping.

    6. Jeanine*

      If they are avoiding being told not to drive that is not something I would be comfortable with at all. They are being told not to drive for a reason, and they shouldn’t be out there!

      1. Observer*

        Yeah, that’s a problem. The thing is that someone like that is likely not to listen to their doctor either. But it would mean that I would have a hard time trusting what they say about their epilepsy. So that creates a real problem.

        As an aside, if someone ever told me that they don’t want to go to the doctor so they could continue driving I would have a very hard time trusting their judgement in general as well as their integrity.

    7. AMS*

      exactly! my ex was epileptic. An ER visit was HOURS of wasted time fighting with doctors who want to run tests and look at meds – when he already had tens of thousands of dollars of test every year and was under the care of a seizure specialist. They cant add anything, as they are not neurologists nor epilepsy specialists. Its thousands of dollars, loads of frustration, and an entire day of time wasted on all of it. And if it is someone who has seizures frequently (my ex had them every 1-2 days) and he was in the ER time? He’d have lived there and never left.

    8. Reebee*

      I will call an ambulance if I am directed to by my workplace or I am alone with someone (or not) who is seizuring and it’s the first time I have seen it, don’t know whether it’s actual seizuring, something else, etc.

      The “do NOT call” command is medical advice and should not be allowed here per forum rules.

      1. I Have RBF*

        If the person has a known seizure disorder and asks you not to call because an ambulance ride would be useless and waste lots of time and money, then obey their wishes. That’s not “medical advice”, it’s saying “respect someone’s right to make their own damned medical decisions.”

        Sheesh.

      2. JSPA*

        Nobody’s saying “never call.”

        We’re saying, “assuming someone is incompetent, absent actual evidence, based primarily on bad information and fear, is dehumanizing, ableist, self-centered and harmful.”

        If someone says (or points to a card or bracelet that says) this is a messy but expected / harmless / recurrent symptom of a known condition (one that’s already being managed), then it’s basic human rights–not medical advice–to fricking listen to them.

  13. nnn*

    Reading #2, it’s unclear to me how certain they are that the issues are the cost of the ambulance and not being allowed to drive vs. other considerations (for example, if the ER can’t do anything for them or if the seizure is better managed by some other approach).

    As a human worried about another human, make sure you understand the actual reasoning behind this request before you consider overruling it!

    For example, if you send them to the ER but the ER can’t do anything for them, that means they’re at the bottom of the triage list, and might have to wait around for hours before they can be released. Many parts of the world are in a COVID surge, and having to spend hours in a hospital would significantly increase their exposure. Some medical providers see patients as less credible if they have a history of seeking medical care when the provider considered it unnecessary, so this could create a “boy who cried wolf” situation and hinder their ability to get care next time they actually need it.

    1. LW2*

      I understand. I wasn’t saying that I would call an ambulance for any seizure, just that I could not promise to never call an ambulance. I know enough to know that seizures that last more than five minutes are considered emergency situations. I know that it’s an emergency if someone doesn’t regain consciousness.

      I know these things are rare, but rare is not never.

      As to the reasons they didn’t want me to call an ambulance, both cited the cost and the lack of interventions, and one cited the driving restriction as she didn’t really have friends or family in the area that would be able to help her get around. Like I said, I get all those things, I just feel that agreeing to NEVER call an ambulance is irresponsible.

      1. Vincent Adultman’s executive assistant*

        “ and one cited the driving restriction as she didn’t really have friends or family in the area that would be able to help her get around”

        I get how frustrating and limiting that is especially if this in the US but that interviewee is also being pretty damn irresponsible in my opinion. So what about the person her car might hit if she has a seizure while driving? Their injuries, loss of a car, possible loss of income, medical bills, possible loss of life, etc are all acceptable risks but her risk of not driving is unacceptable???

        Well I hope that interviewee doesn’t drive anywhere near me or mine because I’d pursue that lawsuit from the grave if need be.

        1. Seashell*

          Totally agree. That’s a rather disturbing mindset. I’d rather pay for a taxi/Uber/random driver for hire and stay alive.

          1. Bear in the Sky*

            Taxis and Ubers and random drivers for hire don’t exist everywhere. If this is a small town or rural area, there wouldn’t be any taxis or Ubers and probably wouldn’t be any random drivers for hire. There might be literally no way to get to work if you can’t drive and don’t have anyone to drive you.

            If this is a not so small town but not a big city either, those options might technically exist but not be reliable.

              1. MigraineMonth*

                As someone who didn’t buy a car until I was 29, I think your options are basically:

                a) Move to a place with reliable public transit. In the US, this is generally only certain large cities. You’ll want to plan where you live and work based on bus/subway lines if you want to keep your commute reasonable. Hopefully you can afford rent.

                b) Rely on your network. This may mean moving back with your birth family, arranging a permanent carpool with a coworker and hoping they never get another job, arranging a rent discount if your roommate drives you to work or similar. Be generous with gas money and expect to change jobs/homes whenever a particular arrangement falls through.

                c) Only apply to jobs within walking distance, or only live in apartments within walking distance of work. Buy very good jacket and boots if your part of the country gets bad weather and be prepared to pay for a taxi anywhere else.

                d) File for disability and hope you get approved. If you do, try desperately to make ends meet and hope that the newly-elected legislature doesn’t screw you over. If you don’t get approved or can’t make ends meet, end up homeless.

        2. I Have RBF*

          They may be able to get to and from their job on transit, but not get from a hospital ER to their home without significant added expense when they get out of the ER 8 to 10 HOURS later.

        3. The Coolest Clown Around*

          I honestly think that depends on the epilepsy. The law says that they shouldn’t drive for 6 months (varies by state) after any seizure, but some people consistently have warning before an episode, sometimes even for hours beforehand. I have a non-seizure condition that causes me to lose consciousness, and I have gone stretches not being able to drive safely and I accepted those as my sacrifice for the safety of those around me. But now I know the symptoms better, I have 30+ minutes warning before any episode – should I be unable to drive? If I had the same parameters and was epileptic, the answer would be yes, but because my condition isn’t epilepsy there aren’t any real laws around it, so the answer is no. I understand the reason for the law, but reasonable adults can make reasonable decisions around safety.

        4. Jeanine*

          This is exactly what I’m saying. The risk of an accident if they have a seizure while driving is not one I would want anyone to take. And if they are in a place where they can’t get a taxi or something (even villages have taxis) then they need to go somewhere where it will be possible. Driving under those conditions is dangerous.

      2. MM*

        LW – this is how a co-worker handles her seizures. She has a family member designated for the office to call when she seizes. The family members cell phone number is posted in the office. When she seizes, the family member is called, discusses the specific details that are happening and they make the decision.

        It helps this is a small office, where everyone that works there is comfortable calling the family member.

        But maybe setting up something like this would be a compromise where you don’t have to go against your employee’s wishes about their medical needs, but if it is a case where an ambulance needs to be called, someone more familiar with the employee is consulted.

      3. Observer*

        both cited the cost and the lack of interventions,

        That combination is a really good reason to not send them to the ER. Especially the lack of interventions. On a good day, you are doing no good. On a bad day, it’s actively harmful.

        one cited the driving restriction

        Now, *that* is something I would not be on board with, and I understand why you had an issue with that.

        But I would also be seriously questioning this person’s judgement. She knows that she’s not safe to drive. How is going / not going to the doctor going to change that? This sounds like a real “head in the sand” approach to the issue. And if she says that it means she’d be in less trouble if she ever got pulled over, then a better plan is to be an ultra careful driver that doesn’t get pulled over.

        As for what happens if she does wind up in an accident, not having gone to the doctor is not going to change anything.

  14. Nodramalama*

    I understand the concerns about calling an ambulance for an epileptic seizure. But I do not think a workplace can agree to not call an ambulance in any circumstance if a person has a seizure. A hospital might not be able to help with a seizure but they sure as hell can help with a brain bleed because a person hit their head while having a seizure.

    If employees don’t want ambulances called, I think, as Alison said, they need a clear seizure plan or protocol so work can ensure they are doing the appropriate thing.

    1. LW2*

      Right! I understand not wanting an ambulance called for a 10 second seizure that they quickly regain consciousness from. I just couldn’t in good faith agree to not calling if, say, they didn’t regain consciousness or a seizure wasn’t stopping after 5 or 10 minutes or they kept having seizures that weren’t stopping or they hit their head hard.

      But both employees were very clear that even then, they didn’t want ambulances called. One told me that even in those situations I should call her husband, who worked an hour away, to take her to the hospital. As a human being who is worried about someone’s health in an emergency situation, waiting to get help for more than an hour feels so irresponsible and negligent to me.

      1. allathian*

        Thanks for coming back with more information.

        Granted, I’m not a lawyer so maybe a lawyer who specializes in healthcare issues could contribute to this discussion, but FWIW, I think that the only way what they’re asking for could possibly work from a legal standpoint would be that they sign an agreement freeing you/your employer of any liability for contributing to their disability if they have a serious seizure.

        From a human standpoint the above would feel horrible, but these employees are obviously more worried about the expense of an ambulance ride to the ER than their own health. As adults (and in many jurisdictions children who are judged to be mature enough to make the decision for themselves) they have the right to refuse even potentially life-saving medical care.

        I’m sorry, I really wouldn’t want to be in your shoes in this. In my area, you can be prosecuted for refusing to attempt to help a person who needs medical care or first aid, if only by stopping and calling emergency services. But we also have single-payer healthcare, and while ambulance rides aren’t free, they aren’t exorbitantly expensive either. The problem here tends to be that ambulances won’t come even if you call them, and people who take emergency calls from the public are expected to do a pre-triage. Basically ambulances are only sent if the patient needs medical care on the way to the hospital or is sick enough or in so much pain that they can’t sit upright.

        1. Orv*

          I don’t think a waiver will help. They don’t usually hold up in court, and someone can’t sign away the rights of their family to sue even if they try to sign away their own rights.

      2. happybat*

        Your position seems reasonable to me. I suspect that seizure plans will help tremendously. I also feel that it is appropriate to make it clear that if someone’s seizure goes on for longer than 5 mins, if they do not recover consciousness, if they have repeated seizures or if they have hit their head etc that you will feel obligated to seek emergency help. Making sure that everyone knows about the plan seems as fair as it is possible to be under the circumstances.

        https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/what-to-do-if-someone-has-a-seizure-fit/#:~:text=it's%20the%20first%20time%20someone,several%20seizures%20without%20regaining%20consciousness has some information about the UK guidelines.

      3. Vincent Adultman’s assistant*

        “ But both employees were very clear that even then, they didn’t want ambulances called. One told me that even in those situations I should call her husband, who worked an hour away, to take her to the hospital”

        HA HA HA HARD NOPE FROM ME ON THAT.

        I have sort of gone through a slightly similar experience albeit with family and a different medical condition. I understand the frustration of going to the ER when it won’t necessarily help especially in the US (even if you have decent insurance). But either of those interviewees asking THAT of you is way over the top and you’re right to pull a massive side eye. You’re human, you don’t want to get sued out the wazoo, and you have a moral compass that can’t in good conscience agree to something so insane.

        A colleague was also just telling me about a medical student who kept having seizures in class (severe enough to warrant an ambulance and since it was a MEDICAL school, it’s not like they were all just guessing at that). The student wasn’t taking her seizure meds which is why she kept having seizures. Why? Because she kept forgetting to take them before leaving the house. Why not just, IDK, throw them in her bag or something on her way out the door? Because the student didn’t want to risk her car getting robbed or her being mugged.
        Which, okay that is a concern people have and it sucks to deal with replacing lost/stolen prescriptions BUT…given the area we were in, Rx thievery would have been like 10th on the list of items a thief might take (above money and her car). And obviously this whole situation was just not working for her anyway so she needed to do something else FFS.
        She eventually dropped out of the program and TBH some of her professors felt that was the smartest decision she’d ever made.

        1. Jeanine*

          She couldn’t set an alarm as a reminder on her phone to take the meds before she left? Or put them somewhere where she would never miss them first thing in them morning?

      4. Irish Teacher.*

        Ah, OK, that does really change my view on the situation. I assumed this was a case where they were talking about a normal situation and perhaps hadn’t thought to add “unless I have a seizure that lasts more than five minutes” just because they were so used to short seizures that they were assuming it would be one of those

    2. Cat Tree*

      The tricky thing for me is that I don’t know if I would recognize a seizure. I’ve never seen one, and if I had someone tell me they might have one I’d ask them to describe it and maybe watch some YouTube videos. But in the moment, I wouldn’t necessarily know the difference between a seizure and some other emergency.

      I would try to use my judgment but if there’s any doubt, I would probably call the ambulance anyway. Sure, for someone with epilepsy it’s most likely a seizure. But people can have two things so it could be something else. (For example, I’ve had several EKGs because I have severe GERD and hiatal hernia, but even with a history of painful reflux, I could still have a heart attack too so the doctors need to rule that out.)

  15. Dood*

    #1, are you paying your personal trainers the market rate or expected/standard rate for professionals of their qualifications, experience, and so on?

    He may need the extra money but does not have the skills or the desire to perform office and/or cleaning work for you.

    But have you asked him why he isn’t taking this additional work (that is very different to personal training work), or why he wants to be paid differently? Also, have you asked him why he does not want to drop the towels off?

    Is it possible to provide a second hamper or whatever type of storage space it is that overflows, instead of expecting people to take the towels to the laundry?

    1. Nodramalama*

      I feel like it’s pretty likely that he isn’t putting the towels away because he doesn’t want to and sees it as a menial task, and he wants to be paid differently because he wants to be paid more.

      1. Myrin*

        Yeah, I really don’t think it’s that deep.
        I do think it’s a good idea to ask him seriously and with an open mind why he doesn’t take the offered additional work (although, again, my hunch is that it’s a simple “I don’t want to”) but that’s still going to end with OP needing to have a talk about duties and needs just like Alison outlined.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          My interpretation was that the personal trainer was asking for a *raise*, not additional shifts (particularly doing non-personal trainer work like cleaning the gym).

      2. Dood*

        Sure, it’s possible.

        But I think it’s pretty likely the questions haven’t even been asked, and a lot of assumptions are being made. These assumptions are casting the employee in a negative light, whether it’s deserved or not.

        1. Nice cup of tea*

          Refusing to do something as simple and easy as move a few towels is a negative.

          No one is insisting he cleans the toilet.

          1. Wings*

            This. It doesn’t sound unreasonable to expect that the first employee to arrive in the morning (even if it is a trainer for a morning class and not housekeeping, reception or whatnot) takes a round in the gym and puts used equipment (including towels) where it needs to be for the place to look inviting for the members arriving early.

            1. Also-ADHD*

              But if they are already paying on the low end, paying per class if he attracts a large turnout and is used to being compensated for that (not sure if he IS by the compensation model he wanted suggests this), tacking on a menial task could make you feel used, as could offering cleaning shifts.

              1. Wings*

                They may or they may not. We can’t really know and the LW wasn’t asking what to do to retain good trainers. They were asking how they can make one person occasionally do a simple task to maintain an acceptable member experience.

                What we do know is that there’s one unhappy employee who doesn’t follow direction. For the manager it’s entirely reasonable to lay down the offer (“This is what I can offer you. This is what I’m expecting of you. Does it work for you or not?”). Then it’s up to the employee to decide whether they want to work under those conditions or not. If they get better conditions elsewhere, they are free to go there.

                1. Also-ADHD*

                  I think Alison was right that the LW was asking a “wrong” question though. There’s nothing you can do to make the guy do what he doesn’t want to do. A lot of comments here are basically to let him go/part ways (which is fair) but LW mentions and seems baffled at him saying he feels used, so I thought exploring that might be helpful to a better result. LW didn’t ask whether to fire him or not either and others are mentioning that—what LW asked is basically impossible to do, “How do I get this guy to do what I want” but it seemed framed as LW having no understanding why he wasn’t, so I thought that might be something to reflect on.

                2. Analyst*

                  They should pay the person to do the task. It sounds like the employee is paid to teach a 30 minute class, not pick up the locker room. If I’m paid for a 30 minute class, I’m not doing other work on my own time. I’m arriving, teaching my class, leaving. I’m doing any prep/clean up for my class needed/in contract, but I’m not cleaning the classroom or the surrounding areas.

              2. ecnaseener*

                The whole “feeling used” element is confusing to me. Is that not…what employment is? Providing services, also known as being “used,” in exchange for wages?

                1. Also-ADHD*

                  I would say I “feel used” by bait and switch employment. Now I wfh but when I didn’t, if someone had tried to get me to clean an office (not part of my actual job) or suggested I come in extra hours to clean, I would feel used. This to me feels like a safer and much less extreme version of the “asking professors and other uni staff to do lawn work because we aren’t hiring enough landscapers” — gym isn’t hiring enough cleaners to maintain the standards and hours so they want trainers to do cleaning work. In training particularly, that’s kind of an unusual ask for contractors (and most are more contract models). Now it doesn’t have the safety issues of asking people to pressure wash or even weed, but it does have the same “tack on” vibe that could make someone feel used, especially if you couple it with pay that isn’t exceptional and then try to get them to pick up cleaning shifts on top of it, as though you’re doing them a favor.

                2. Daryush*

                  You’ve never felt taken advantage of at work? Just because you’re paying someone to do a job, doesn’t mean they’re required to do whatever you ask during their shift, or that they aren’t allowed to think about whether they’re being fairly compensated.

                3. KateM*

                  Like Also-ADHD wrote above, this did seem to me like “a safer and much less extreme version of the asking professors and other uni staff to do lawn work because we aren’t hiring enough landscapers”.

                1. Figaro*

                  Someone might be transparent about a payment system which an employee also feels (rightly or wrongly) is too low. They are allowed to ask to be paid more.

            2. Daryush*

              It is unreasonable, if you’re being paid per class rather than hourly. If I’m being paid by the class, you can’t expect me to do opening/closing tasks outside of class time.

              1. constant_craving*

                Yup, this. He’s being paid per class, not hourly.

                They can rethink the 24 hours a day model, or get a bigger hamper, or hire staff to maintain the gym during additional hours. Not ok to ask someone to do labor for them unpaid, even if it’s a small task.

              2. Smithy*

                I think it’s all in perspective. Like flight attendants aren’t paid before the plane doors are shut.

                At the end of the day, this reminds me of any “communal tidying” task and how offices really struggle to get 100% compliance. Whether it’s a request of cleaning used coffee cups, or putting used coffee cups into the dish washer, or even just putting used coffee cups into the sink – it’s almost unthinkable to consider 100% compliance. But those requests are also not asking staff to assume janitorial duties at work.

                Whether it’s a case of being more “mess blind” or being important enough to get away with it, ultimately it doesn’t matter. If that’s a request that’s necessary to keep the job – then it needs to be focused on that way.

                1. Daryush*

                  Yes, but flight attendants SHOULD be paid for that time. Just cause a lot of people are being taken advantage of doesn’t make it right. What happened to solidarity with workers?
                  The coffee cups analogy doesn’t apply, that’s asking people to clean up after themselves. If you don’t drink coffee you never have to clean a cup.

                2. Smithy*

                  Teachers of all varieties are usually just paid for the time they teach and not the prep time. And depending on the nature of that class – say art class – there will be clean up. The solidarity with workers piece goes to if the cost of the paying the teacher for the class does not adequately account for prep time. Someone pays $50 for a one hour art class – but if that teacher needs 10 hours to prep for that one student, then it’s about raising the fee for the class. If someone leading a class at a gym feels that their rate is only adequate for time in the classroom and no time prepping – then their rate isn’t high enough.

                  If this is about money, then make this about money. But equating time spent before/after prepping space (that across fields can include light tidying) is disingenuous. I’m all for teachers of a variety of subject matter to be paid what their worth, but very often that would just mean raising the rates of the class. So now that $50 one hour art class fee is $100, or whatever fits for all the prep time.

                3. RecoveringSWO*

                  To be fair, (most) Flight Attendants are unionized and their Union chooses to accept contract terms that cause that time to be unpaid. Presumably, the FAs are getting something else in exchange for this concession. Perhaps OP can negotiate some incentive for this extra work if the trainer is an employee or revisit the contract if he’s a contractor.

                4. Also-ADHD*

                  I think the difference is flight attendants are generally union employees (not sure if all are union) who contracted into a job with that pay model.

          2. Analyst*

            I was an adjunct paid to teach classes. If you asked me to take the trash out or do something to prepare the room (not my job) aside from picking up after myself (ie, I’ll erase what I write on the board), I would also refuse to do it because you are actually not paying me to do that. I’m really wondering about the pay/contract structure here and if this employee is refusing because he doesn’t think it’s his job especially as what sounds like a contract worker.

            1. AlsoADHD*

              Yes, we had a faculty letter I referenced above, just a few days or weeks ago, where the university wanted faculty to do landscaping. This is not unsafe, like that one potentially was, and not as extensive as coming in on a day off/early to do landscaping, but it’s still asking someone to do additional work, outside their scope, that is menial and undesirable, because you’re understaffed to need… to me, it’s analogous, and everyone was aghast at that letter but many are fine with this. Perhaps it is the level of being taken advantage of that varies from person to person, in their value systems.

          3. Kevin Sours*

            It may be simple but he isn’t being paid to do it. It may seem petty but he’s getting paid a flat rate to teach a class, he’s not being paid as an employee. A lot of places like to pay piece rate but treat people as employees by dumping a bunch of barely related or unrelated tasks on them that they’re expected to do for no extra compensation.

            It’s not really a lot different from asking somebody to return the towels before they clock in because it’s simple and only takes a minute.

        2. Nodramalama*

          Because they’re openly not doing a very simple, mandatory task. There’s no positive light.

          2. t*

            Did you feel that way about the university faculty being asked to do landscaping?

            From what I can tell, this gym is understaffing their cleaning crew and asking their professional trainers who they are seemingly already underpaying to pick up the slack, unpaid.

            But yes, it is the professional trainer who can not be seen in a positive light.

      3. Nonym*

        Depends how you are paid/employed IMO:

        – if you are a regular gym employee paid to work from X am to Y and your boss asks you to pick towels up right after the start of your shift at X, then yes, you should do so;

        – but if you’re paid specifically to give prebooked classes and you have a 30 mn class at X am and your boss asks you to pick towels up when you arrive, right before the start of your class at X, then it’s reasonable to say “nope, sorry I’m paid to give a 30 mn class at X and that’s what I’m going to do. Don’t ask me to do unpaid work before X.”, especially if you think you’re already underpaid.

        Slightly different but at two of my workplace, we’ve had a yoga teacher come in for a weekly class at lunch. She comes, gives her class, and leaves. We can’t ask her to do shit before or after.

        LW said that they offered the trainer a flat fee for a 30 mn group class and the trainer refused but still work there. This makes it very possible we are in the second scenario.

        LW also seems baffle that this trainer said they were underpaid but didn’t want a side job as a cleaning person. It’s not surprising. Asking for more because you think you’re underpaid means you want more money for the work you do, not that you want more underpaid hours as a cleaner when that’s not your profession.

        This doesn’t mean LW is wrong to refuse BTW. Maybe the LW is offering a perfectly reasonable rate and the trainer is delusional, maybe the trainer is asking for a perfectly reasonable rate and the LW is underpaying, maybe both are perfectly reasonable and simply not a good match and the trainer just needs to go work elsewhere…

        1. Nonym*

          BTW, the trainer is only called an employee in the title of the letter, not the letter itself. Was the title written by the LW or Alison? There are several common pay structures for trainers in gyms: regular employees, self-employed with their own clients, contractors.

          It would really help if LW could give clarification.

          1. Butterfly Counter*

            Agreed.

            Is this where the trainers get paid hourly by the gym to be available to members as well as teach classes and train individuals for additional money? (This is what I was assuming.) If so, he should pick up the damn towels.

            If the trainer is only being paid for working with his trainees and doing classes and he’s only there during these times, nah. Someone else can pick up the towels.

            If he’s only being paid for specific training and classes, but sets up the gym as his home base where he recruits his clients, I think he should pick up the towels. The more people find the gym inviting, the more he benefits from the members going there.

          2. MigraineMonth*

            Yeah, I was wondering this too. If they’re basically self-employed and pay the gym for use of the facilities, they’re not an employee, they’re a *client*.

    2. Also-ADHD*

      He also may not “need” extra money but just feel he’s being underpaid for his time/skills, which picking up cleaning/office shifts won’t fix, so this is a good point. Since he doesn’t want cleaning added to his current job, I’m not shocked he turned down those shifts. A lot of PTs work for many gyms and others have full time jobs, etc. But I would say it’s not widely common for great trainers to want to pick up cleaning shifts (for presumably not THAT much per hour) or do cleaning duties.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        Yeah, if I asked for a raise and my boss said I could make extra money by coming in on the weekend to clean the office I’d assume it was a joke.

        Then I’d get pissed.

    3. Person from the Resume*

      I’m not sure what kind of personal trainer he is. The letter calls him that, but “we pay a flat fee for trainers to perform a 30-minute class” sounds more like he’s leading an exercise class and is not individually training someone. These people most likely make a lot less money than a “personal trainer.”

      Personal trainers are usually paid by the client and not the gym and as not being a gym employee I can see balking at cleaning up the gym. They may even pay the gym to allow them to train clients there using the gym equipment.

      If this is someone employed by the gym even on an hourly or per class basis, then the gym can direct additional work. Even if as part of the duties to lead an exercise class is to move the towels to the laudry room before or after class.

      1. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out.*

        IANAPT (I am not a personal trainer) but that’s my understanding. Clients pay the trainers and the gym both takes a cut and forces the trainers to do extra work like run classes to have access to the gym and its members/potential training clients.

        I wouldn’t be surprised if OP is classifying the trainers as independent contractors. In which case it’s questionable to control the trainers’ time to such a degree as to require them to perform janitorial duties.

        1. what even*

          Yes! Also not a personal trainer, but from what I understand from friends who are…. They are not employees of the gym. The gym usually takes a cut from their rate that the client pays, gyms then want them to work for a fraction of their hourly rate with an individual client to teach a class of 30.. This dude offering a PERSONAL TRAINER staff hours at a gym is ridiculous. Gym owner is taking too big a cut of the personal trainer’s fee/doesn’t pay more than a flat fee for teaching a class, and when the personal trainer complains, the gym owner offers him staff shifts that pay.. what? $12/hour?

          Sorry OP#1, if he isn’t on your payroll, pick up your own towels.

          1. Butterfly Counter*

            It might depend on the gym. I had a personal trainer for a while who was specifically employed by the gym. I didn’t pay him for the individual training, I paid the gym. He and the other trainers were there for members who wanted more training and actively recruited from members they saw in the gym.

      2. AlsoADHD*

        It sounds to me like he’s paid for teaching a class, not making a commission per client, from the description, but it is unclear. I’ve seen the folks who teach classes be called PTs too and it is confusing, because that doesn’t “feel” like personal training.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Except the personal trainer refused to teach the class and is still hanging around not picking up towels, so presumably he’s doing *something* else at the gym.

    4. Stuart Foote*

      A lot of people seem to be skipping over the fact that this is a 20 second task. I think this guy can add 20 seconds to his workload.

      1. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out.*

        I doubt it really takes only 20 seconds. It would take 30 seconds just to wash your hands properly, which you would have to after touching dirty laundry from dozens of members of the public.

      2. Nephron*

        I can add 20 seconds to my workload, but I am not giving my employer 20 seconds. An employer can get those 20 seconds when they pay me for them. If I am being paid for 30 minutes, the employer gets 30 minutes they do not get 35 minutes or anymore than they are paid for.

        Side issue, if my pay starts at the class time am I covered by workman’s comp for that little side job moving laundry?

      3. AlsoADHD*

        There’s no way it’s a 20 second task, or there would be no frustration that he hadn’t done it/big deal about it, though, so that feels totally inaccurate. As someone else noted, just washing your hands after does take longer than 20 seconds (and these are unattended sweaty towels so you’re washing your hands). Picking up one towel and putting it somewhere very nearby might be 20 seconds, but if there’s one towel, what is the issue really? And also even looking around a gym space for all the towels is going to take more than 20 seconds… so I don’t quite understand it as a 20 second task. It may be a few minutes, or it may be more substantial, but that was definitely hyperbole minimizing the amount of time in LW1’s notes.

      4. Kevin Sours*

        Would it be okay to demand and employee do a “20 second task” prior to clocking in because it needs to be done now?

    5. I Pay Taxes, Too*

      I thought I would side with the gym in that example, but I find myself leaning toward the employee. I had a job once where, for “team bonding” and “company spirit,” we came in half an hour early every morning to clean the office before starting the work day. They said, “this is how schools are cleaned in Japan, by the students and teaching staff. It fosters camaraderie and respect for the environment.” Turned out they just were skimping on janitorial services (which was easily apparent because we were only wiping down surfaces and maybe doing a cursory vacuum once a week). To the management and nobody else’s surprise, this only made people resentful. We already have to clean our homes and now we have to make a show of cleaning our office, too? And get up even earlier to do it? Combined with how poorly we were compensated, it had the exact opposite effect of what was intended and was terrible for morale.

      If I were hired specifically as a personal trainer, I would probably feel some kind of way about being given menial tasks unrelated to my role. Not because there is anything wrong with custodial or administrative work, but because that’s a whole different job description, and it comes across like cutting corners. Cleaning is absolutely essential work that needs doing, everywhere, which is why there should be a dedicated, paid, on-site custodian during staffed hours, and another solution for the less frequented hours (like you suggested, a second hamper).

      And on the topic of wages – one of the gyms I was a member of was class-focused. Some trainers’ classes were routinely full. Others, less so. Some of this was due to the schedule (of course the 5 AM weekday class will be relatively deserted compared to the 9 AM Saturday class), but specific trainers had a non negligible effect on traffic. There was no meaningful time discrepancy between a Tuesday 5:00 PM class and a Wednesday 5:00 PM class, but the former was routinely full to ‘turn overflow away for max occupancy reasons’ level and the latter would have days it was wholly empty. People really favored this one trainer who was tough but enthusiastic, charismatic, encouraging, and suffice it to say overqualified for the level of this class (he was an actual competitive athlete in the sport the class was loosely based on). If there was a last minute cancelation and he filled in for somebody, THAT class would be full, even if it normally wasn’t. Contrariwise, if his class unexpectedly had a sub, people would walk in, see the sub, and turn around to leave (ouch).

      One day said top trainer recognized his worth and decided that he deserved to be paid more because look at the traffic he was bringing to the gym – he helped retain and recruit members based on the quality of his work. Many members *only* went to his classes. The gym owner said no, every trainer is paid the same whether one person comes to class or 100. In her mind, at the end of the day, this is a monthly fee model, not a per-class model, and you more or less do the same amount of work teaching a small class versus a large one (debatable, and I specifically disagree with the last point, but it’s moot). The trainer packed his gear and left. This had only been a side gig for him, anyway, and he decided it was not worth his time anymore.

      I don’t know how much of a hit this specifically was to business because this all transpired over the first COVID year, after the gym had been closed for 6 months. A year later, this gym shut down. But it did start me thinking, both about that gym’s model and about leveraging one’s value as an employee.

    6. tangerineRose*

      The statement “He is very passive, complains a lot, and has a sense of entitlement.” makes me think that this person is a pain to be around, and his co-workers would probably appreciate it if he left this company.

  16. ElliottRook*

    Re: #2- I have a close friend with a form of epilepsy where the seizures are not what you picture (someone falling to the floor shaking). It’s more like freezing up for a few moments that leaves her with a bad headache, from what I understand (I haven’t been present for one), and she doesn’t need medical attention after–she just wants to go home and sleep off the headache. There’s nothing the ER or an ambulance would be able to do to change anything. For her it’s triggered by extreme stress and/or flashing lights. I would think that your employees were in similar positions–triggers that can be actively avoided in most cases, and not requiring a hospital stay/medical attention even in the event of a seizure. I do think your employees should have made the situation clearer, though! “If a seizure happens, it will look like xyz, and then I will need to do abc after, and I need to avoid 123 so as to not trigger them in the first place,” not just “don’t call an ambulance ever” with no guidance.

    1. Katie*

      This is very similar to the type of epilepsy I have and exactly the action plan I have in place. ER will do nothing, maybe take blood pressure, ask if I’ve taken my meds, wait until I’m properly responding, then let me go. Typically, if a seizure were to last longer than X (5 minutes is a standard guideline but this could be lower for others), then an ambulance should be called, but whatever that threshold is should be discussed with the individual. Now, if someone offered to call a taxi or someone to pick me up and drive me home after a seizure, THAT would be super helpful.

    2. LW2*

      That’s what I said to them, but they both argued with me. One told me that even if she does not regain consciousness, I should just call her husband who worked about an hour away to take her to the hospital. Forget about possible liabilities as an about possible liabilities as an employer, that just feels irresponsible and negligent on my end as a human. So that’s why I said I would use best judgment.

      Thanks to the comment section here, I now know to ask about rescue medication and a full seizure action plan, but frankly, if someone writes down that, even if they don’t regain consciousness, I should wait more than an hour for them to get to the hospital, probably gonna ignore that part on the very off chance it happens.

      1. Fluff*

        If you do witness a seizure and have the bandwidth, use a timer like on your phone. I have told civilians / non-medical folks to do that after they make sure the person is safe (on the ground, on their side).

        30 seconds can feel like 11 minutes when you see a seizure. It can help reassure you too once it is over and the actual seizure was 90 sec.

        Good luck.

        1. Fluff*

          Time the seizure. I like the phone timer option because you click and forget it until everything calms down. I am a medical person who treats status and I have zero sense of time without an external source.

      2. CommanderBanana*

        Yeah, there’s no way I’m leaving someone unconscious for an hour while waiting for their husband to show up. The American healthcare system is a hellscape and it is insane that we live this way, but that’s a problem that I can’t solve.

  17. Jenesis*

    To OP #3 – if you don’t feel comfortable disclosing that you’re personally upset by your coworker’s jokes, I would use script #4, but amend it with the words “at work.”

    I also have a history of suicidal ideation and for a long time I used dark humor as a coping mechanism. The point of emphasizing “at work” is so you don’t come across as trying to tell her what she can and can’t find funny (especially since you’re relatively junior and not her manager) but that, in general, work is a place where jokes (and complaining) need to be limited in topic and scope.

    1. Six Feldspar*

      Agreed, plenty of people have a gallows sense of humour (me included) but it’s absolutely reasonable to ask not to make those jokes around you. Workplace jokes are better sticking to lighter subjects until/unless you get evidence the darker stuff is welcome.

  18. Caro*

    OP1/ you need to have a final conversation with your employee where you lay out the 2-3 most salient issues, name the pattern more generally and ask them point blank if they are interested in continuing to work for your business under those agreed terms (assuming that they are agreed and were clear from the start, or are at the very, very least extremely close to the original agreement). The reason I would be bullish about it is that it sends a very irritating message to your other, less annoying employees that all you’ve got to do to get more money / do less stuff is… not do it and be mulish about it. It’s not acceptable to have ”special rules” for difficult people because very soon others get resentful, even over really small things, like the towel issue.

    Assuming they are a really good trainer and you do not want to go the firing route, lay it out very clearly and in fairly hard terms, with a witness, ideally, and notes, and say that this is the last conversation you will have on the matters being discussed. Give them an option to really think it through for the day and a deadline by which they decide if that’s something they can do or not. If not, part ways.

    1. MissBaudelaire*

      This part. There’s going to be a big problem with resentment amongst the other employees if it’s not fixed. I agree with minding your own beeswax at work, but when you repeatedly see someone rewarded for acting out, it does make a happy workplace.

  19. Nodramalama*

    For LW1 if he doesnt want to do mandatory tasks and he doesn’t want to take classes… Stop scheduling him on until he does?

    1. MissBaudelaire*

      I’d take it further and let him know that’s part of the job, he either will do those or not and be employed or not, like Alison said.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’m also wondering about the business model & the formal nature of the job.

      It’s been my observation that a lot of trainers do this is a side gig. And if not, they often work at multiple gyms or have private clients that they see 1-1 outside of a gym. Are any of these the case with this problem employee, or do they work nearly full time and exclusively for you?

      If it’s the former, then this behavior may be a passive-aggressive way of saying “I have other options, you know.” In which case, as Alison said, you have to decide whether this person is worth keeping on.

      If it’s the latter, then it’s more straightforward to have the conversation about “these are the requirements of the job” and then proceed to consequences.

  20. TokenJockNerd*

    OP2:

    It’s…weirdly offensive and bad faith to assume the reason is “because they can’t drive after”, unless they told you that? (there’s actually not that many mandatory reporting states. I live in one of them! and have had epilepsy my entire life)

    The actual reason is much more likely “it’s expensive! and first responders who aren’t EMTs (and sometimes who are) take seizure activity as noncompliance and that’s a good way to get badly to fatally injured!” They’re not really able to do a whole lot except get mad about postictal confusion in most cases anyway.

    A good compromise would be “what is your normal for a seizure? how long? what kind?” and know that if it goes past a certain amount of time or if something is actually injured, then you can and should call. But for a lot of people, calling is worst practices. It ties up resources that are better spent on actual emergencies-seizures in someone with known epilepsy aren’t emergencies, they’re frightening and frustrating, but they’re not-and it can be quite risky to the person you’re trying to help. I know it makes people feel better if they do something, but there’s a reason “Don’t Panic” is in my seizure protocol like 10 times: because that’s the best thing you can usually do.

    1. LW2*

      One of the employees did talk about the license restrictions, yes. She was kind of alone up here, with just her elderly mother who doesn’t drive. She said that she wouldn’t be able to get to work, she wouldn’t be able to take her mother to appointments, she wouldn’t be able to go to the grocery store, and that just can’t happen. I don’t know if there are legal reporting requirements In my state; if I remember correctly, the employee told me that her PCP has to report it? It’s been about three years, so I could be mistaken. She did tell me that she didn’t report her last seizures because she couldn’t be without a license.

      And while I don’t agree, because that puts people at risk, I do understand. I DO have local family and friends who would help me if I couldn’t drive, and it would still be an incredible hardship. I would feel super guilty for inconveniencing my friends and family. They all work too, so while I know they would be willing to help where they could, I expect I’d be ordering a lot of Ubers between me and my teen, and that would be really tough with my budget.

      So I didn’t mean to be offensive, that was not my intention.

      1. bamcheeks*

        I get that there are areas where there’s massive car dependency, but wow, I’m still shocked by this.

      2. Hyaline*

        I’m just throwing this out there–many states have reporting laws for impaired driving with procedures to report anonymously online (well, you’re not anonymous, but it’s not shared with the person who reported them). If you ever feel that someone should not be on the road there are often avenues to report it to the BMV/DMV and that agency will follow up. I’m not arguing that you *must* or even *should* do this for any of your employees with epilepsy (that’s entirely your judgment and depends on way too many factors to argue it here!)–but I’m bringing it up so you can separate any concerns you have over the ethics of calling for an ambulance from the question of an unsafe person driving.

      3. learnedthehardway*

        I can kind of understand this – my family member was recently told they cannot drive due to their seizure disorder, after 15+ years of being able to drive with no issues whatsoever (the seizure disorder is not new). Their new neurologist errs on the side of caution, despite the fact that family member’s seizure disorder is well controlled, they can tell when one is coming on (because there are clear pre-seizure symptoms for several hours), etc. etc.

        My family member is abiding by the restriction, and is hoping that they will be cleared to drive again, but it’s pretty frustrating for them, especially since they can TELL when they’re going to have one well in advance, and take steps to head it off.

        Every person with a seizure disorder is different, of course. And not everyone is as responsible.

      4. TokenJockNerd*

        oh wow. uh. I have…words and they are not allowed here! and they are not for you.

        I can understand your discomfort with that situation going unseen by a neurological professional, and my response had that little bit been in the OP would have been a bit different! because I do think the ER is terrible at managing epilepsy but also we live in a society and those rules about reporting? they exist for a reason!

        with that specific piece there’s a whole new light on the ethics. I appreciate the clarification, because…yeah, if someone is avoiding being seen because of that (unless there’s a super obvious, super avoidable trigger)…oh noooo

      5. CommanderBanana*

        She did tell me that she didn’t report her last seizures because she couldn’t be without a license.

        Very cool and responsible of her.

        1. Hmm*

          I understand your reaction here but I think it’s important to remember that doctors really aren’t perfect decision makers and those reporting laws don’t necessarily reflect realistic risks to safety. I appreciate LW2’s willingness to extend compassion here (despite disagreeing with the choice!) and think we should follow their lead on this one.

  21. Hroethvitnir*

    Hmmm. Re: LW1, I am very dubious this is an employee rather than a contractor, as IME it’s rare trainers are actually employees that are paid for their time vs contractors paid per class/by clients.

    So while this trainer does sound like he views himself as above moving the laundry, I am side-eyeing whether the trainers are being expected to do extra housekeeping for minimal pay.

    2. MK*

      Given that he is paid per class, I think he is almost certainly a contractor, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s unreasonable to ask him to do this; contractors often do extra tasks related to their main service. E.g. is he being asked to pick up the towels used in his class after it’s over or do it for the whole jym? I would argue that the first could be part of “running the class” (not unlike putting the equipment back in its place) while the second is obviously an extra housekeeping task that shouldn’t be part of his job.

      However, my view is that the business model of “we are open 24 hours/we aren’t staffed 24 hours/our clients expect 24 hour service” isn’t realistic. If you want to offer 24 hour service with consistent quality, you need to be staffed accordingly. If you can’t or won’t have staff on duty for 24 hours, you and your clients need to accept that things wouldn’t run a smoothly when the jump is open without staff. (I used to often stay at a boutique hotel that only had staff till 6pm in the winter and 12am in the summer; it was a lot cheaper than a regular hotel with 24 hour reception, but of course one had to accept they wouldn’t get the same level of service. Maybe OP should make it clearer to their clients about what level of service they are providing or break up the cleaning staff’s schedule so that there wouldn’t be long stretches of non-staffed time.

      1. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

        The letter said he gets there early in the morning and is being asked to pick up overnight towels. If he’s a contractor, that’s way outside what he’s being paid for and is possibly wage theft. Or is LW trying to pay the guy minimum wage for 20 min to have him do housekeeping when he gets to work? I think this LW is being totally unreasonable.

        This is like asking the adjunct professors who are paid per class to mop the halls of their classroom buildings when they arrive in the morning. Or freshen up the flower beds with some light weeding.

        1. bamcheeks*

          Not necessarily– it might be more like paying adjunct professors £75 per class on the assumption that fee includes an hour’s prep/admin time. Lots of contract jobs include the assumption that a fixed fee for a specified contact time includes other duties like class prep, booking admin, noting safety concerns, set-up duties etc. The employee might feel that the fee they’re getting for their classes isn’t enough to to include those duties, and that’s a reasonable thing to think, but then LW needs to initiate a clear conversation that these are the expectations and figure out whether this business model works for this employee and works overall.

          1. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

            For a personal trainer, his “admin” might be coming up with a song list for a cycling class or a sequence of exercise moves or reading up on workouts for back pain. Maybe grabbing towels after his particular class or his clients. Not cleaning up from overnight gym goers he had nothing to do with.

          2. Kevin Sours*

            On the other hand companies like lard up that sort of piece rate work this all sorts of “other duties” and people doing those jobs need to be extremely aggressive about pushing back on job scope to avoid being taken advantage of. Given that the task in question here appears to be entirely unrelated to what the contractor (almost certainly not an employee) is being paid for, my sympathy is not with gym here.

            I will also not that adjunct professors are a textbook example of abusive and employment arrangements. They are badly underpaid and get heaps of work tossed on that they are expected to do without pay — and generally just guilted into doing because if it doesn’t get done then the students ultimately pay the price for it.

            1. bamcheeks*

              Right, I absolutely wouldn’t disagree with you about academia and there’s a reason I didn’t stay in it! That said, my contract was very clear about what the pay for direct contact time was and what was included in it, and I turned down contracts which didn’t work for me.

              Without knowing what pay this trainer is getting or what’s formally included in his contract, I don’t have sympathy with either side.

              1. Kevin Sours*

                From the letter, this particular task was piled on *after* he was hired. They were not up front about it.

        2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          I noticed the timing on the towel thing too. Just because he is the first one to the gym doesn’t make it his job to pick up the towels. They aren’t from his class, he didn’t cause the bin to be overflowing, he just happened to be the first one there in the mornings. It is very much not his job, or the other trainers who are not employees to keep your gym clean. Maybe have one office staff person come in early each day to grab the towels. It can rotate among office staff.

          The other trainers may be doing it, but you may not hear the grumbling about it. Also is this trainer usually the first one in? Then it would be falling to him more often, which is why you are hearing the grumbling.

          Honestly if you are offering cleaning shifts to trainers, it sounds like you need to focus on the housekeeping side of things instead of trying to get trainers to do it for you.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            I also notice that it’s the office staff who are complaining about this, not patrons. Why are the office staff upset? Is picking up towels part of their jobs they don’t want to do? (In which case, it probably *isn’t* a 20-second task.) Is it not part of their duties, but they do it because the trainer won’t? In which case, do you actually need cleaning staff, rather than just pressuring other people?

    3. Also-ADHD*

      It definitely felt to me reading it that LW1 might be paying below and outside the norm (for their area), adding on extra tasks, and not understanding that training and cleaning are usually two different jobs. It sounds easy to say “taking the towels up is simple” but if it’s causing this much of a problem, there must be more than a few towels there when this guy arrives. If he’s not compensated any more to do that and didn’t feel really well compensated before, it if that’s just not a job he wants to take on (and he’s not jumping at those extra shifts), I think that’s fair. If OP only wants trainers that are happy with their towel rule etc and do this, they’re free to lay that out and not schedule/fire this guy/part ways, but it sounds like the trainer might select that over taking on this extra for already low pay. I’m wondering if all the trainers who “open” are happy with this rule etc (if they only work when office staff is there, it sounds like it doesn’t apply) etc.

    4. Ccbac*

      This was my first thought as well.

      If I’m getting paid a flat fee per class and am not a regular hourly employee, I’m not taking on additional work for the gym unless it is discussed and additional compensation is provided (regardless of how “quick” and “easy” internet commentators think the work is).

  22. Audrey Puffins*

    As a first aider in a previous role, in the UK where an ambulance ride doesn’t cost anything, I can confirm that we are also advised to not call an ambulance for a seizure if the person is already known to have seizures, unless it goes on for longer than a certain amount of time. By all means have a complete conversation with your co-workers about their expectations on how to handle the event of their having a seizure, including any worst case exceptions to the “don’t call an ambulance” rule, and it wouldn’t hurt to make sure you have plenty of first aid coverage in the office, but don’t default to the ambulance and don’t assume their reasons for asking you to not call an ambulance are based on finances or wanting to keep driving or anything else other than “I know my condition and I know what it needs”

    1. LW2*

      I apparently wasn’t very clear in my letter, because I keep getting these same responses!

      Yes, both cited the cost of an ambulance as the primary reason not to call. One of them cited the license restrictions.

      I do know that for simple seizures, there is nothing to do but keep the person safe and that does not require an ambulance.

      My concern is for more complex issues like status epileptic. Despite me bringing it up as an emergency issue, both still stated that no ambulance should be called, and this is where I feel that is an inappropriate answer. Hit their head on the way down and remain unconscious? No ambulance.

      I guess what I am trying to say is that I don’t know everything there is to know about seizures and epilepsy but I do know the basics. I know that 99% of the time there is no reason to call an ambulance. What I am uncomfortable with is the edict not call an ambulance no matter what.

      Thanks to the comments, I can now use the words “seizure action plan”, which I think will help. But honestly, I’m still gonna call an ambulance if I think it’s something beyond a ‘normal’ seizure. And that’s probably going to be based on the length of time the seizure lasts or if someone doesn’t regain consciousness.

      1. WS*

        This is from my country, but you can make epilepsy management plans. An employee in my workplace had one in place – she had also had one when she was in high school. I would think the major epilepsy organisation in your country would have something similar. I think it would be entirely reasonable to go through this with the employees, have them get their doctor to endorse it, and keep it on hand in the office.

        https://epilepsyfoundation.org.au/understanding-epilepsy/epilepsy-and-seizure-management-tools/epilepsy-plans/

      2. WellRed*

        I think you could make the “length of time unconscious” part of the action plan. It’s far from perfect, of course.

      3. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        You need to contact HR and let them develop & approve the plan, presumably with legal guidance. Don’t take the responsibility yourself to create or approve a plan that may not be sufficient to cover liability for your organisation.
        If something serious happens at say 10-15 minutes and your plan was to wait 20 or 30 minutes, you would feel terrible for a very long time – and you could be in serious trouble with your employer if they hadn’t agreed to this.

        1. Ginger Baker*

          From other comments I gather LW2 is part of a small family business and the person therefore doing HR. Therefore I would suggest this being an item where LW2, after you have drafted the seizure action plan, this would be a wise task to find a lawyer to review as a one-off expense to make sure everything is good from a legal liability perspective.

      4. Rosacolleti*

        Wow, potential license restrictions aren’t our concern – imagine turning a blind eye to someone having a medical incident which renders them unsafe to drive!

      5. Observer*

        I apparently wasn’t very clear in my letter, because I keep getting these same responses!

        That is correct, you weren’t. You’re not the first, and I’d bet you won’t be the last. Thanks for coming back and clarifying, though!

        I’m glad that you’ve gotten some good information out of this, as frustrating as it this must be.

        Alison, perhaps it would be helpful to post one the responses up on top, or even added to the letter, so people have the broader context before answering. I know that my answer would have looked a lot different had I seen all of this before posting (last night).

        1. Humble Schoolmarm*

          I know I was reading the question as “My staffers told me not to call an ambulance as a first step” when LW meant “never call an ambulance full stop”. I think that’s an huge distinction and definitely flips my answer. Now what I would say is
          a) “what would a reasonable person want in this circumstance?” is something that comes up a lot laws around medical consent. Status epileptic is a medical emergency and reasonable people would want care, so you’re not doing anything wrong by taking the stance you did
          b) would it be possible or reasonable to ask for a doctors note to confirm that never calling an ambulance is a safe and reasonable treatment plan?

      6. fhqwhgads*

        You’re getting the same responses because people post at the same time and/or without reading for other similar comments first. Don’t stress about it.

  23. MissBaudelaire*

    LW1: It sounds like he feels he’s a trainer and should only do things associated with that. I think it’s reasonable to say “Putting the towels away is part of your job. If you cannot do that task, you cannot do this job.”

    It sounds like he’s an overall bad fit for your gym. And that’s fine! Not ever person is a fit for every position/place of employment.

    I do think it’s more than expectations aligning here, though. It is fine for a someone to say “Hey this wasn’t a task thought I’d have to do for XYZ reasons, can we figure it out?” But the complaining and making it a problem for the office staff? No.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      There’s a lot of argument upthread about whether he’s a paid employee or a contractor, but I feel that’s really irrelevant. He’s a bad fit, has had a lot of other issues, and just needs to be let go before there’s resentment from the other trainers who are doing this task, and he brings the morale of the entire place down.

      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Its not irrelevant. Contractor and employee have different legal ramifications. If they are treating a contractor as an employee and just adding on duties as needed, that could actually get them in trouble with Wage and Labor leading to payment of back pay and fines.

        Someone up above said their studio has trainers doing all kinds of stuff around the studio other than classes, this could actually get the studio in a lot of trouble. Oh this is the way its done is not necessarily a defense.

    2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      It’s one thing to say – hey if after your class you see the towel bin is over flowing, can you take it the laundry – and another to say any time you see the bin overflowing take it to the laundry.

      The bin is overflowing in the morning when the guy shows up. He has nothing to do with the bin being overflowing, yet somehow it has become his job to take care of it.

      1. bamcheeks*

        Genuinely don’t understand why it would be OK to ask someone to empty the bin after their class but not beforehand! You could equally say that ensuring the bin is empty and ready for your clients is part of set up for your class.

        I go to a studio which doesn’t have admin staff, so the instructors are paid per class, but when they are there they are also the person responsible for first aid, health and safety, and checking on equipment and things like replacing toilet roll, making sure bins are empty, and tidying the kitchen and putting away crockery. The fee per class includes that. It’s totally legit for any of them to say they’re not getting paid enough to do that and they don’t want the gig, but I don’t think it’s inherently unreasonable for those things to be part of the instructors’ job description.

        1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

          I think the trainer is coming off a bit prickly across the board and might not be a good personality fit for this particular gym staff.

          I think it’s fair to ask about compensation per student – if that hadn’t been discussed before, or if his classes are substantially better attended than others. But if the original agreement was for a flat rate, then he needs to be ready to accept it or move on.

          The towel thing — I like the take of “you are responsible for your space being set up nicely before your class” but I also will point out that if the overnight workouts are generating more than a bin of towels, then perhaps a SECOND bin for towels would be appropriate so that the morning shift isn’t being burdened – especially if there is someone whose job it is to collect those bins after that first morning class or two.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            About the class, it sounds like the trainer decided the payment structure didn’t work for him, chose not to teach the class and moved on. It seems that the LW is the one still upset about the trainer not teaching the class at the offered rate.

            LW, it seems like you’re adding a number of requirements to the personal trainers’ jobs that don’t really need to be there. If you need people to teach group exercise classes or clean the gym, you either have to hire people to specifically do that or be *really* clear upfront that you require your employees to do all these tasks. (I’m assuming they really are classified as employees.)

      2. ecnaseener*

        Re “he has nothing to do with the bin being overflowing” – why does that matter? That would create some really bizarre incentives if everyone was only responsible for moving the towels that they had “caused” to be dirty!

        1. Punk*

          Because they’re gross sweaty mildewed towels that have been sitting overnight from another trainer’s class. Gym classes are self-contained contracted things. The PM trainers aren’t cleaning up after their classes so the morning guy always has to do it and it’s gross.

          1. ecnaseener*

            There’s no indication of that in the letter. I assumed the towels were from the overnight hours, not from another trainer who is also refusing to follow this direction but who LW forgot to mention.

            1. Myrin*

              In fact, OP specifically says that this guy is the literal only trainer not following this direction. Yeesh.

              1. AlsoADHD*

                To be fair, LW doesn’t mention if other trainers have the same schedules (do they open as often, etc.) or if they’ve checked and the other trainers are happy with the direction. We don’t really know. LW also doesn’t seem keen to let this person go, from the letter as I read it, and just seems mystified in general why someone would have any pushback or feelings of resentment at all, which seems really strange to me. We don’t know if this trainer is more impacted, more vocal, or out of step with the feelings of the other trainers, and we don’t know how many trainers LW employs. There’s a big difference if there are 5+ of other trainers who “open” in the morning with the same situation and are cheerful and happy to follow this rule, and this guy is easily replaceable, or is this the only trainer willing to come in and teach at 5am or one of only 2?

          2. Myrin*

            Every trainer has to do it. OP literally says that, whereas you’ve made up a whole scenario here which isn’t in any way represented in the letter.
            (Also, towels don’t get mildewy after just one night.)

        3. Kevin Sours*

          Because he’s only being paid to teach a class. If it’s not related to teaching the class he shouldn’t do it without being paid.

  24. Dog momma*

    #2. check with HR. & follow Allison’s guidelines. Be aware that’s ambulance can cost upwards of #1000, & might not be covered. Although there’s something called ” prudent layperson”. and unless the seizure doesn’t stop on its own, its considered outpatient by the hospital and the co pay is higher( USA). These people may not drive already so that might be moot.

    #3. this person is ASKING for help, not joking about suicide. Especially if she’s acting very negatively, & seems depressed or ” down”. She’s thinking about it ( intent) & has a( plan)…hanging or shooting herself. Any ER nurse/ doc will tell you that. Go to your supervisor, tell them hats going on and see if this person is agreeable to at least a consultation with a MH provider.

  25. Rosacolleti*

    #2 surely emergency ambulances are taxpayer funded? Following an employee request to not seek medical advice in what could be an emergency seems fraught with legal liability. Even having this clearly in writing from their doctor sounds precarious.

    1. bamcheeks*

      They aren’t tax-payer funded, but I’ve never understood why an employer isn’t required to cover an ambulance called at work, though. It’s bananapants to me that it can be employer policy to call an ambulance (for very good insurance and liability reasons) but the cost is borne by the individual worker.

      1. Rosacolleti*

        I don’t understand why the cost should be borne by an employer unless it was an injury/illness caused by working, eg a spill that causes a fall. If someone has a pre-existing condition, how can it be the employers fault? Most developed countries fund this type of emergency care in any case.

        1. bamcheeks*

          For the purposes of “should we call an ambulance / administer treatment”, no sensible policy makes a distinction between a pre-existing condition, a random event, employee negligence or something caused by the businesses. There are WAY too many grey areas for that to be something you’re figuring out before administering first aid.

        3. Insert Clever Name Here*

          Because if your policy is to call an ambulance for Jane and then Jane has to pay $3,000 out of her pocket (which is the way it is in the US, unfortunately — it’s dumb, we hate it, we can’t change it at this exact moment) then you are passing along a cost of business to your employee and that’s unreasonable. ESPECIALLY in a situation where an ambulance is not required and a trip to the ER is also not required.

      2. Noquestionsplease*

        I have “good” insurance and if I have to go somewhere in an ambulance, I have to pay $500 in cash out of my pocket that does not count toward my annual deductible. Ambulances are not free in the United States.

    3. nerdgal*

      Are you American? If so, where do you live? I was born here and have lived here all my life. Never heard of an ambulance service that didn’t send the patient a bill.

      1. amoeba*

        They… even do that in Europe. Of course, here mandatory health insurance covers it, so generally it’s free *for you* (or at least only maxes out your co-pay for the year if you have one – we do in Switzerland), but it’s not tax-funded either. And either you get a bill (which you then give to your health insurance) or it goes straight to the insurance, depending on your model but anyway, there is definitely a bill.

        1. bamcheeks*

          There isn’t in the UK! I was quite shocked when I got a bill in Germany. I was able to claim it back through EHIC though.

            1. bamcheeks*

              European Health Insurance Card. We don’t have it in the UK any more because of Brexit, but we did when I was living outside the UK in the 90s and 00s.

  26. Jenga*

    #4 It does sound annoying, but if you’ve made it that far in the process, you must be doing something right.

    Maybe this will be a case where you won’t get the job and the time spent will be a learning experience you can take forward.

    Or maybe you leave a good impression and they think of you next time there’s an opening. I once interviewed for one job, which was given to the internal candidate, but was offered another job that had just opened up. You never know.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I came to say this! Obviously it depends on the company, but I feel like most aren’t doing second and potentially third interviews with external candidates if those candidates were merely there so they could tick a box that said “yes, we interviewed someone external.” One interview, sure, but two or potentially three tells me there at least taking a serious look at you, LW.

      That doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll get the job, of course, just that I wouldn’t assume they’re wasting your time or that this has all been part a box checking exercise.

    2. MsM*

      Yeah, I lost out on a role to an internal candidate during my last job search, but they were very clear that person’s familiarity with the institution was the primary thing that made them go in that direction, and that they were definitely keeping my resume on file in case anything else came up.

  27. John*

    I have/had a seizure disorder. Ambulances have always been called, and the ER has helped stabilize me.

    Of course, I have the big ones (used to be called grand mal and now are tonic-clonic) so perhaps if they are having what they call absence seizures it’s different.

    But I would take my counsel from HR and Legal rather than the employee.

    Seizures aren’t to be trifled with. And the period following a seizure can be dangerous as the seizure threshold is lower.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      But I would take my counsel from HR and Legal rather than the employee.

      But HR and Legal don’t know the employee’s health situation at all. Why would you trust someone who isn’t a doctor, doesn’t have medical knowledge of the condition or of the employee, rather than the employee?

      Not all seizure conditions are alike, and I think we can trust the employee when they tell us what they need. There are plenty of comments here to that effect.

      1. bamcheeks*

        I think we can trust the employee when they tell us what they need

        That’s not the only consideration, though. An employee saying “never call an ambulance for me” doesn’t absolve the employer of legal responsibility for calling an ambulance for someone who needs it. If the employee sustains an injury, a court can decide that the employer was negligent and fine them or require them to pay compensation.

        At the very least, you need legal guidance on what format the “don’t call an ambulance” instruction needs to be in and how clear it needs to be about when you *should* call an ambulance so that it would stand up in court if the employee or their family/estate/insurance provider decided to sue you.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          I know people who died or almost died because they didn’t want to call an ambulance when they should, in fact, have called an ambulance.

          I am willing to not call if I have a clear set of guidelines on a) why I don’t need to call and b) at what point things have progressed beyond the point where not calling is still OK, but I am not willing to swear that I’ll never call no matter what.

        2. CommanderBanana*

          I think we can trust the employee when they tell us what they need

          I’d like to think that’s true, but this person is also admitting that they drive despite having an active seizure disorder, sooo.

      2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        HR and legal are mostly concerned with the organisation’s legal liability and damaged reputation if an ambulance is not called and then brain damage or death results.
        It may be that the employee’s wish never to call an ambulance are incompatible with the risk assessment of the organisation.

        Also, the OP reports that the employee does not report seizures to their doctor to avoid losing their driving licence and this is another of their reasons for avoidiung ER -but this is no longer just a matter for the individual.

      3. Pescadero*

        “Why would you trust someone who isn’t a doctor, doesn’t have medical knowledge of the condition or of the employee, rather than the employee? ”

        Because the goal isn’t to do what the employee wants, it is to protect the company from legal liability.

  29. Katie*

    My kids have epilepsy. They have seizures every day. After having a seizure, doctor’s/hospitals are useless. They are just an extra expensive bed. My kids doctor agree about this and their seizure plan is absolutely that they don’t need to go to the hospital if they are no longer having a seizure.

    My kids also have been in the hospital while having seizures and I also had first hand experience at seeing that they can do absolutely nothing useful!

  30. Check it out*

    Agree to a signed plan by the employee, to be reviewed and re-signed yearly, with information on what to do in different seizure scenarios (and guidelines on when it’s a good idea to call an ambulance)…maybe run this by a lawyer? I can understand why someone would be worried that they would get in trouble for not acting if there wound up being serious consequences.

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      The organisation itself would definitely be worried that those consequences could include legal liability for compensation, fines etc if this counts as a Health & Safety breach, damage to their reputation.

  31. CR Heads*

    I’ve been fortunate never to have had to call an ambulance, but if someone does and they come and the person is ok by then why do they take them to the ER? I’d assume the responders have some experience to know what the deal is if it’s a seizure vs something else?

    I guess my question is if it’s common for seizures to not require a trip to the ER, can’t the ambulance people also make that determination?

    1. Also-ADHD*

      I think they actually can’t by liability reasons…sometimes the person can decline a trip, but if the EMS person suggested no, they’d be liable and it’s usually against policy for them to do so.

    2. Angstrom*

      A competent patient can refuse transport or further care, but if they go in an ambulance that has responded to a 911 call they have to go to an ED. The ambulance is not a taxi.

      1. CR Heads*

        That was my question – some of the comments were making it seem like calling an ambulance means an automatic trip to the ER which I found surprising

        1. Angstrom*

          In my experience, specifics may vary:
          -If an ambulance is called the crew has a legal obligation to make contact with the patient.
          -If the patient is unresponsive or appears incompetent to make a decison, the crew will operate under implied consent and treat and/or transport. The field check for competence includes things like being oriented to person, place, and time.
          -If the patient is competent they can refuse further care and transportation.
          -The patient can agree to an assessment and then refuse further care or transportation
          -The crew will document the competence check, assessment and refusal. The patient has to sign the refusal.

          2. GoodReasonsNotToCall*

            EMS can also decide to disregard the patient decision to not be transported. If someone is freaked out by what happened or decides that a “sane” person would decide to go to the ER they can take you there against your will. It is supposed to be a check against someone who is “mentally incompentent” declining care they need and when they invoke this option you sometimes end up in the psych ward. I’ve heard stories of ambulances doing this to make money, but I have not personally experienced that. I have personally experienced being transported against my will in a way that caused me extreme pain, being prevented from taking the medication I actually need to take to deal with the situation, and then getting yelled at by the doctor for wasting his time and discharged 5 minutes after he walked in the door with no way to get home.

            Calling EMS can actively harm people who have an alternate plan of action they’re supposed to follow.

  32. Pastor Petty Labelle*

    Aside from this trainer #1 – if staff is not on duty all 24 hours, what happens if there is an injury on site? Broken equipment? Some security issue? Surely some representative of the gym is there even overnight. Why can’t they take the towels to the laundry?

    1. Hyaline*

      Some of these 24 hour gyms—at least here in the US—are accessible to members via key/keypad overnight but really are unstaffed. (I’m guessing with lots of use at your own risk liability waivers.)

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Yeah, lots of gyms in the US work this way. Especially ones in a strip mall with a small footprint – a dozen weight machines, a dozen cardio machines, a rack of free weights. They may or may not have shower facilities. They almost always have dedicated 911 phone lines or alert lanyards that people can hang over their necks, and the contract has a plainly stated liability waiver.

    3. Antilles*

      Surely some representative of the gym is there even overnight.
      Nope. There’s at least two very large national gym chains (24 Hour Fitness and Anytime Fitness) which are built around you paying your $X/month and getting full-time access to the gym at any time you wish. The membership agreement (and posted signage) very clearly states that you work out at your own risk, that you understand that staff will not be available, blah blah blah.
      And then you’re just broadly expected to use common sense, like you would if you were working out at home. Know your limits and listen to your body. Use a spotter if you need it. If you’re alone in the gym, don’t try to break personal records with free weights. Read the labels on the machine if you’re not sure how to handle it. Control the weight when lifting. Etc.

      1. Figaro*

        But couldn’t there be legal liability? I don’t think “you should have used common sense” is a legal defence against those claims?

        1. metadata minion*

          I assume there’s some sort of disclaimer posted like for hotel gyms, which in my experience are almost never staffed.

        2. Antilles*

          That’s why the membership agreement and posted signage exist: To make it very clear that they are just providing the facilities and it’s on you to handle yourself.
          There could still be legal liability if they’re blatantly negligent in some way (e.g., if they knowingly purchase broken weight machines), but in the ordinary course of events, there’s enough paperwork to make it clear that the user is accepting all the responsibility and voluntarily waiving them from liability.

        3. Bossy*

          There are swim at your own risk, no lifeguard on duty swim areas whether beach or pool, which to me would be way more risky than a workout. They just post the sign.

  33. ijustworkhere*

    re: Ambulance—As an HR person, I would require some documentation of this request and a doctor’s note to put in the file. None of our employees are medical professionals and are not equipped to make this type of judgment call. The liability to the company is quite high if the person somehow actually does need emergency medical attention and we don’t provide it.

    So a response plan, endorsed by a medical professional and signed by the employee acknowledging that these are their instructions about how to handle their situation, would be mandatory in my workplace.

    This isn’t just about the employee’s preferences. Incidents like these are traumatic for the employees around the situation. I can see someone pushing back on somebody else telling them to just let someone lie there and be in apparent medical distress, especially if they did not have any personal knowledge or experience with epilepsy. Having a written response plan can assure a responding employee that the affected employee has provided guidance to the organization about what to do.

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Yes, you need a written plan – and organising this is outside the OP’s expertise/pay level.
      It’s one thing if you tell your family & friends never to call an ambulance – and even they may object or just avoid you if they are too anxious about this – but its very different when you are at work or at another organisation such as a gym or church that may have legal liability.

    2. AcademiaNut*

      I would add that in addition to having a doctor sign off on the plan, I would consult with a lawyer over the legal aspect, to address both the legal and medical ends of thing.

  34. Midazzled midazolam*

    #2
    Emergency doc here. OP 2, you are right to be concerned. I suspect what you need is legal input rather than medical input, at absolute minimum they need proper seizure managment plan. For established people with epilepsy, I agree it’s not the best idea to call an ambulance at every seizure; however that is way more sensible than call an ambulance never.

    There are lots of misinformation in this thread. The claim that ED do not ever do anything for epileptic seizures: untrue, most of the time nothing more aggressive than correct positioning, suction, and oxygen is required, however you are rightfully worried about status epilepticus in which we have no less than four lines of treatments. Allowing a tonic clonic seizure going on for hours can result in permanent brain injury. In extreme circumstances we intubate and paralyse the patient, after the multiple lines of seizure termination meds have failed, so that their bodies don’t cook themselves. I think Americans call this “induced coma”, not a thing you can do in your office. Also the assumption that a person with epilepsy cannot have other seizures is really dangerous. Sure, epileptic induced seizures are more likely, they are still not immuned from eclampsia, or thyroid storm, or hypoglycaemia, or or or; just by having epilpesy.

    I’m not American and I indeed feel so bad for you folks who have to pay for medical care, which is why I am cautious about things like alwaya/never regarding to calling an ambulance.

    Based on your other replies, the driving thing. So I don’t know your local reporting laws, I’m concerned about them driving if they had a seizure, in the sense of sure they can choose to be the sole victim of a crash of that’s their risk benefit analysis, but there are other people put to danger too. Ravenshoe café explosion was caused by a driver who had a seizure. Others died and were maimed. Again I’m not a lawyer nor understand your local laws, but I do have concerns about the implications if your organisation knowingly didn’t mandatory report, if it’s a thing there.

    Your concerns are really valid here. I hope it works out ok, and I hope they stay well.

    1. Midazzled Midazolam*

      https://stjohn.org.au/first-aid-facts

      While I doubt this is legally binding in where you are, their epilepsy seizure call criteria is very reasonable, and I think this is a sensible approach.

      Having said that, if they have a seizure, the driving is potentially going to be a bigger liability than this.

    2. CommanderBanana*

      I understand it’s inconvenient for the LW’s coworker not to be able to drive. It’s also very inconvenient to get maimed or killed by a driver who is having a seizure because they knew they couldn’t safely drive and did it anyway.

        1. CommanderBanana*

          Interestingly, the driver who caused the explosion would “turn away ambulances” and “refuse medical care” after having seizures.

  35. Pseudonymously Yours*

    Op #2 I dealt with a very similar issue at my job, a disability services office at a university, but with regards to a student and their accommodations. The student wanted us to make it an official accommodation that 911/university police should not be called if they had a seizure. We asked and our university said absolutely not, for the legal liability reasons Alison mentioned. In our case it also would have put all the other students in their class in a really difficult position as well. It’s always great to get an answer from someone above you in this case!

  36. Trout 'Waver*

    OP#4,

    I know its frustrating, but your time isn’t being wasted if you treat it as an interview for their next opening. You’re clearly a strong candidate if you made it this far. Demonstrate grace with their frustrating process and you’ll likely be on their short list for the next opening at this company. Or if the manager leaves and has to build a new team.

    Interviews are an excellent form of networking even if the job isn’t open. Yeah it sucks and yeah it’s frustratingly common, but there is a way to get something positive out of the experience.

  37. Mimmy*

    #4 – I just went through this myself, but I was the “preferred candidate” – my role was being expanded–so essentially a promotion–but they had to advertise it (this is a state agency). I’m honored that my supervisor saw enough in me to promote me but I felt bad for the other candidate that applied.

    1. learnedthehardway*

      Don’t feel badly – sometimes, only the interview process can show that the interim candidate really is the BEST choice for the role. I mean, often, it goes the other way, and the hiring manager realizes that while the interim person is promising, they simply don’t have the experience or skills to work at a more strategic level. But in cases where a good recruitment process occurs, and the interim is chosen, it means that the right person was hired.

  38. Cathy*

    I once interviewed for an internal job, and everyone told me don’t bother, they already have someone in mind.
    Well, that someone ultimately declined the job so I got it. :-)

  39. Lacey*

    I had a coworker who sometimes had seizures. We had a couple people on staff who were trained to know what to do. We never called an ambulance and the coworker never needed one. The trained staff member handled everything and the rest of us stayed out of their way.

  40. Radish Husband*

    LW1: Sounds like someone needs a specific set of duties assigned or gets shown the door.

  41. Daryush*

    Letter 1: I’ve worked as a trainer for several years as my side gig. While it’s normal in the industry to pay trainers per class, you need to consider all that you’re asking him to do and if that compensation model makes sense. How much are you asking him to do outside of class time? Is it just the towels, or are there more tasks he needs to do to get the gym ready for the day? If he has work he’s required to do “off the clock” he’s right to refuse to do it, even if it’s only 20 seconds of work.

    Regarding paying per member, there are easier clients to coach, and there are more difficult ones. You get some people in class who move well and are mostly there for the atmosphere and accountability of being in a group. On the other hand, you also get people in group classes who don’t move well or follow instruction, and they’re extremely difficult to work with. Generally it all balances out, but if you’ve just had an influx of new members who don’t know what they’re doing, his job might have just gotten a lot harder and it’s not unreasonable for him to start thinking about if the pay is worth it.

    Last thing, it sounds like he’s asking to be paid more for the time he’s currently giving you, not that he thinks he’s being paid fairly but wants more hours. That’s the discussion the 2 of you need to have, rather than offering him cleaning shifts.

  42. shaw of dorset*

    Genuinely WHAT are people talking about?? I work in a lab and have a master’s degree and I am not somehow ~exempt~ from taking out the biohazardous waste bin when it’s full. Dude can take a full towel bag to the back/laundry/wherever just like all his co-workers apparently do!

    1. Ccbac*

      Presumably, that is clearly part of your job, though? I’m over here SO BAFFLED at the number of people simping for a for profit gym chain trying to add on additional work to someone’s plate merely because they get to the gym earlier than the office staff.

      1. Dinwar*

        Acknowledging that job tasks change is now “simping”?

        Or is it the “for profit” part that you disagree with? Presumably it would be better if the gym went bankrupt.

        There’s a story that floats around my jobsite. A kid came in to the field office with mud on his boots. When he was told to clean his boots off before he came in he responded “It doesn’t matter, the housekeeping staff will deal with it.” He was informed we ARE housekeeping, there is NO task that we’re too good to do, and he was not invited back for future projects (and didn’t stay with the company very long). People who view themselves as too good to help out typically have major problems in other areas of their work; it’s a leading indicator of attitude problems.

        1. Daryush*

          No, it’s that, based on how compensation works at this facility, he has a task that he’s required to do that he’s not being compensated for. That’s wage theft.

          1. Dinwar*

            This is the opposite of what the letter said. It’s part of the job, so it is in fact part of what he gets paid to do. And if it’s new, most jobs include a clause along the lines of “…and other tasks assigned”, meaning that even if it’s not specifically stated in his roles/responsibilities paperwork, the fact that he’s been told to do this means it’s part of what he’s compensated for.

            And seriously, you’re going to start shouting “Wage theft!!” for a 20 second task that’s necessary for the business to function? That’s on par with an employer expecting you to clock out every time you leave your desk to get water. It’s unreasonable and overtly hostile towards the people you’re working with. I know there’s a strong current of hostility towards management on this blog, but this is taking things way too far. If it was only women being asked to do this, or only people of certain racial backgrounds, or something like that, you may have a point, but it’s an “everyone” situation.

            It’s also worth mentioning that calling this wage theft diminishes the significance of actual wage theft. This is a real thing, with real consequences, harming real people right now. To put “Please pick up the towels, we need everyone to help out with this” on the same level as that hinders discussions of real problems and gives ammunition to those who think that the problem isn’t very serious.

        2. CommanderBanana*

          People who view themselves as too good to help out typically have major problems in other areas of their work; it’s a leading indicator of attitude problems.

          ^^ It’s weird because while I don’t disagree with this sentiment, in practice what this often has meant for me is that I and the other women in the office get saddled with a lot of scutwork that the men don’t and also don’t get recognized for it.

          I generally consider myself a team player and have worked myself into different / higher positions by taking on things outside the scope of my work, but that is not the same as continually having admin work shoved off on you that your coworkers are not being asked to do. I personally have a time limit for how long I will take on additional work before it needs to be a formal conversation that comes with a title change and/or more money.

          1. Dinwar*

            “…but that is not the same as continually having admin work shoved off on you that your coworkers are not being asked to do.”

            Agreed, and obviously there’s a lot of nuance here that I didn’t get into. It’s one thing to say “We’ve got a situation that we all need to pitch in to resolve”, or even “We have a situation and I think you’re the best person to resolve it because [list valid reasons here].” It’s another thing entirely to say “Susan, you’re a woman, the laundry is your responsibility.” And being a team player certainly doesn’t negate the vital necessity of having boundaries!

            If the trainer indicated that they thought they were being discriminated against, this would be a very different conversation. At that point, yeah, the manager would be in the wrong. But it doesn’t sound like any of that is coming into play in this letter; the guy just thinks he’s too good to do the work.

        3. New Jack Karyn*

          In your example, the kid made the mess in question. Of course that’s out of line. In LW1, the trainer is not a regular employee of the gym. He’s a contractor for personal training.

          He’s not admin, he’s not a custodian. This is not part of his job. The business wants the benefit of being open 24 hours, but isn’t willing to pay for all the costs associated.

          1. Dinwar*

            That’s a thing that happens. Jobs do not remain consistent; changes in conditions often necessitate changes in assigned tasks for individual employees.

            But I’m curious: How much time needs to elapse between management telling him this is being added to his responsibilities and it actually being part of his responsibilities? I always thought that that conversation was the trigger.

            1. fhqwhgads*

              I think the distinction in this scenario (or in this industry probably) is if the person is being paid either hourly or is exempt, sure yes the change in requirements is the moment the employer says it changed. At will, other duties as assigned, etc.
              But if they’re paid per unit: as in per class taught, or per client-session, then even if it’s still an at-will situation, even if sure you can technically change the terms at any time, when the pay is explicitly per something whatever that thing is, then when you add duties but don’t add pay, it starts to make more sense how to the employee it feels like a move in bad faith. They agreed to be paid X per class, not X per class plus these other tasks.
              When it’s time based pay and you add tasks, you’re still getting paid for your time.
              Now, in this scenario without knowing more details of the working arrangement, it’s hard to determine if the employee is reasonable to feel put out or if this is a simple easy add they’re silly to push back against.
              Either way the appropriate action for both parties is to clearly communicate: this is the gig now, accept it or don’t.

            2. PotatoRock*

              It’s also not unreasonable to leave a job if the “and other tasks as assigned” starts significantly changing the role, even if you are paid for the time, and good employers know that. I am an engineer, if my job asked me spend an hour vacuuming and making coffee and resetting the space every day, I would tell my boss that was a nonstarter for me, and leave if necessary. Not because I think I’m too good to clean! But because I want to focus my professional energy on tasks that will actually advance my professional career, and cleaning the office doesn’t do that, regardless of whether I’m paid for it or not.

              1. Dinwar*

                “It’s also not unreasonable to leave a job if the “and other tasks as assigned” starts significantly changing the role, even if you are paid for the time, and good employers know that.”

                Granted. There’s often a tension between employees wanting to do what’s best for their careers, and managers wanting the employees to do what’s best for the group as a whole. And if you can’t resolve that conflict, it’s time to part ways.

                But “Pick up the towels when you come in so we don’t lose customers” is pretty far from “Spend an hour vacuuming and making coffee and resetting the space every day”, in terms of time and physical effort. It’d be more akin to “The first person in should make the coffee in the morning.” And there’s a huge difference between “I’d rather spend my time focusing on work that can advance my career” and “I’m just not doing it.” I can respect the first one even if I disagree with it–we’ve all been there. The second is petulant and childish, as well as being self-defeating in this case, as the employee’s inaction is contributing to a situation that threatens the institution’s ability to continue paying him. If you were so focused on your own career you were damaging the company’s reputation, you would by definition be a bad employee!

      4. Trout 'Waver*

        Calling it simping to ask everyone to pitch in to the scut work is very, very insulting to those of us who do those tasks. Someone has to do that $*%^ and standing back and saying “not my job” while denigrating those do actually do it? Kindly go @#$@ yourself.

            1. New Jack Karyn*

              No one is denigrating anyone. I wholly appreciate the custodial staff at my job; they do great work at keeping our campus clean and safe. But I’m not mopping the bathroom floor during my prep time so that my employer can cut back on how many custodians they keep on staff.

    2. Daryush*

      You work in a different industry and presumably have a different compensation structure. I don’t think anything that happens in your job is applicable to this situation.

      1. CR Heads*

        That’s true but it doesn’t seem that outlandish to ask the guy to pick up a few towels if it’s specifically part of his job.

        I do agree with the overall advice that it’s not LW”s job to cajole him into it, just lay out what the duties are and what’s expected.

        1. TheBunny*

          It actually annoys me. He’s the 1st trainer in, so he’s responsible for clean up of everything that happened overnight. The 2nd and 3rd trainers in…no responsibility to do this as it’s been tasked to trainer #1. I’d be mad too.

          This is the equivalent of the closing team at a retail location leaving the store a mess so the opening team has to deal with it.

          1. CR Heads*

            I’d probably agree if the job was to clean the whole gym, or clean the locker room or something more substantial. But if it’s really a 20 second task as LW says then I don’t really see his viewpoint.

            1. AlsoADHD*

              There’s no way it’s really a 20 second task though, to be fair. I don’t know if it’s 5 or 30 minutes, but it can’t be a 20 second task. Even washing your hands from it is longer, as someone else noted above, AND if it were only a 20 second task, the volume of towels would be so unnoticeable, no one would notice he didn’t do it.

              1. Freya*

                Yeah, I can see picking up the towels that missed the bin and putting them in the bin they’re next to being a 20 second task. Taking the bin out the back and getting an empty bin is on top of that, as is picking up any other debris that overnight users have left, and washing hands so that you’re in a condition to take the class you’re being hired to take.

                The way I’d fix this is to make it a paid 15 minute extra to do a 15 minute whip around as the first person in of a day, no matter who that person is. If you’re never in first thing to get the overnight detritus, then you never have to do the worst of the cleaning. If the on-site admin staff are first in, I’d make this a thing they can do, but only if they also get compensated at their regular rate or better for it.

                And frankly, given the classifications under the Fitness Industry Award (Australia’s legal minimums for pay rates and standards for persons working in the fitness industry), it’d be cheaper here to get the admin staff to do it. You can always do work that’s below your pay grade, but you can’t be paid lower than the minimum given the work you’re usually employed to do and your relevant qualifications.

                1. Freya*

                  (and if the employee was covered under the Cleaning Services Award instead, the minimum pay rates are higher up until your fitness industry personnel are supervising other employees or hold a diploma or the equivalent in professional development or significant experience – one of the examples given for Level 4 under the Fitness Award is a gym coach with a basic accreditation under their governing body AND 12hrs/year of recognised professional development AND 3000hrs experience coaching gymnastics)

          2. Antilles*

            That’s not a remotely equivalent situation. In your scenario, the closing crew specifically decided to leave the store a mess and shirked their job. But that’s not the case here; this is a task that develops overnight while no staff members are there.

          3. Insert Clever Name Here*

            No, it’s the equivalent of the closing team at a 24/7 coffee bar staffed from 6am-11pm ensuring that everything is cleaned up and stocked before they leave at 11pm, people serving themselves from the kiosk between 11pm and 6am, and the first person on the schedule at 6am walking in to find that the trash is overflowing from the overnight patrons’ trash that was thrown in a trash can that was empty at 11pm.

            I worked an opening shift when I was in college and had more items I had to accomplish on that shift than when I worked the 10am shift. It was part of working that shift. Assuming that OP’s gym has written into the trainer contracts something related to prepping the space for their class as part of the per-class payment structure, this trainer needs to suck it up and empty the damn basket.

          4. Dinwar*

            There are a few ways to deal with that.

            The best would be to have a discussion with the trainers. Figure out how to assign tasks so that the work gets done and friction is minimized. This is what management is for, but the trainers themselves could also do this and present their solution to management. Personally, I prefer the latter way, because the less my boss is involved in my work the happier I am. I like my boss, it’s just that any time you go up the chain of command things have the potential to explode.

            The worst are either 1) to stew about it, become resentful, and create a very negative work environment, or 2) not do it until you get fired. Both create far more problems than they resolve.

          5. Vito*

            Actually, In Hotels, it is 1st and 2nd shift leaving crap for 3rd shift. Third shift has their own jobs to do as well as setting up the front desk for when 1st shift finally shows up (usually 30 minutes late).

    3. Hyaline*

      I think the debate is whether he’s an employee or a contractor, and if he is a contractor, whether light housekeeping is/can be/ought to be part of his contracted duties. (The LW saying they assigned the task or that it’s mandatory does not necessarily answer this question.)

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        Even if he is a contractor, there could be a clause saying that they have to clean up their area. I don’t see picking up the towels any different than putting weights back.

        1. KateM*

          Agreed, if he comes in as first person in the morning and has to put weights back from all people who have been in overnight (and that has nothing to do with his class), it quite similarly is a question if it should be part of his contracted duties. I don’t see it any different from saying that the first person in has to clean the overflowing toilets. And most often the first person is going to be the same person(s) the same day of week, so people who come in a bit later never have to do these cleaning duties.

        2. Nephron*

          Letter says the trainer is paid for the 30 minute class. Cleaning up the things that got used during his class could be seen as part of paying someone to do a class, but cleaning up from the overnight use of the gym is not the same thing.

    4. Nephron*

      As an undergrad my lab work was hourly, but during my PhD I was salaried.

      If undegrad asked me to handle the stericycle box after I clocked out or before I clocked in then I was doing the lab a favor in unpaid work. As an 18-22 year old I might have done it, but I would have been working off the clock and my boss never asked me.

      During my PhD I did things on my own flexible and terrible schedule and many stericycle boxes were closed up and moved around at 10 pm, Saturday morning, and holidays.

      The debate is whether the trainer being paid for the class time is being asked to work unpaid work when being assigned a job to do first thing in the morning cleaning the gym after night time use.
      The refusal of a new job to be a cleaner weekly is a separate issue, but just because I was a PhD student working for my stipend does not mean I would be willing to work as a lab tech as well.

      1. CR Heads*

        Technically you are correct, it’s unpaid work. The LW says this takes literally twenty seconds though – I can’t come up with a good reason for not doing something that takes 20 seconds.

        1. Nephron*

          I don’t think 20 seconds is a realistic estimate of emptying or swapping out a full container of dirty towels at a gym. It takes me more than 20 seconds to load my laundry at home.

          But even if it is 20 seconds, I am a bit of a hardliner but an employer does not get to ask me for any free work. If you want me to do work I get paid for every second of it. I do free things for my friends, family, and the general public. My employer gets things because they pay me.

        2. I went to school with some arbitrary number of Jennifers*

          The LW says that it only takes 20 seconds, but do they know that from personal experience? It really does sound like hyperbole to me, just a way of saying “small quick task”. I also notice that isn’t the kind of opening task you have before you unlock the door for customers, since the gym is open 24 hours. And once you’ve got customers around, you can’t do quick tasks nearly as quickly.

  43. Bookworm*

    #2 –

    Another issue with employee telling workplace to NOT call an ambulance is liability for the company. Here in the US, where people will sue at the drop of a hat, I can very easily see a grieving family member suing the company for not calling emergency services.

    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      And they could sue because you DID call the ambulance when they instructed not too. They could have a form stating this is when we will call the ambulance but outside of this situation you are ok that we do not call the ambulance.

      1. East Coast Commenter*

        You can’t delineate the contours of liability (particularly in tort cases) just with a form. OP should really speak to a lawyer about this, but I’d hazard a guess that the potential liability for calling an unnecessary ambulance is far outweighed by the potential liability for failing to call an ambulance that is needed.

  44. glitter writer*

    re: #4 — I had a very similar situation in the recent past, where I went through an EXTENSIVE (7 steps, when you included a pretty significant work product task as well as many rounds of interviews) process for a position, only to be the runner up to the internal candidate they were almost certainly going to promote anyway. And that really stung, and I hated it. And then about six months later, they had a new position open up and they straight up called me and said they’d been really impressed with my application the first time, and did I want this other job?

    Sometimes, if the company is good, it can be worth the process, even if it is a waste of time in the short run. (But if the company’s not good… ah well.)

  45. Shiba Dad*

    #4 – A coworker and I are work at a facility full time through a service contract with our employer. We’ve been doing the job for five and a half years. Management at the facility had talked about hiring us directly for years and about a year ago they attempted to do so. They offered me $10K less than what I make and less PTO. They were not willing to negotiate salary or PTO.

    A couple months ago they hired our replacements.

    Don’t assume that the contracted employee will get the job.

  46. Former PT*

    If you don’t know how personal trainers are paid then you might think the trainer in 1 is out of line.

    Trainers are paid a portion of the client’s fee, like a commission on a sale but only upon rendering the service. This can be as much as 60% or as low as 25% (in my experience). They get this fee for the session and are unpaid outside of that, although they maintain available hours so they can get more bookings. The trainer’s job is to pack their schedule as best they can, but people are people and often cancel, reschedule, etc, resulting in unpaid gaps and long days, starting before and ending after the work day, and on weekends when clients are free. Trainers hustle.

    While it sounds like LW1 is providing an opportunity for income in the gaps, the client fee is a much better opportunity than admin (min wage), which is also often capped to avoid trainers reaching full time hours and benefit eligibility off admin work.

    Classes, likewise, do NOT make sense for trainers if they are not paid by the participant: here are 20 prospects who all get your services for free. He’s not being difficult, he’s just looking at the reality of the opportunity cost.

    Finally, if he’s not being paid, even a 20 second task is over the line. Hire a janitor and clean your gym, get a PT manager to help your trainers fill their calendars, let the trainer run a group program and max out his earning potential, and maybe do a little math on how much your trainers can earn, so you understand the grind.

  47. girlie_pop*

    LW 2: It seems very weird to people who don’t have epilepsy or don’t know anyone with the condition, but they really don’t need to go to the hospital or even be seen by an EMT after every seizure. There are some situations where they should, but your employee can tell you what those are.

    Another thing to consider is that sometimes people with epilepsy have really bad experiences with EMS/police. I have a family member with epilepsy who has lucky not had any bad experiences, but I have heard many, many horror stories of people with epilepsy having 911 called for them and the police and/or EMS assuming they’re on drugs/alcoholics and being aggressive with them when they’re post-ictal (which is the time after a seizure where people are not fully conscious and not forming memories, and they’re typically really confused and can’t answer basic questions) and even heard of people being arrested while they’re recovering from a seizure when they haven’t done anything wrong. If your employee is asking you not to call 911, there’s a chance it may be because they’ve had these problems before and don’t want to deal with them again.

    I think Alison’s route of asking when you SHOULD call 911 is the right one, and also asking if there is an emergency contact you can call if they have a seizure in-office who can come pick them up/talk to the EMTs for them. In my experience, EMS doesn’t immediately load them up and take them away when they’re post-ictal, they will usually wait until they’re more awake and ask them then if they need to go to the ER, so calling 911 doesn’t automatically mean that they’ll be charged for an ambulance ride.

  48. KTinDC*

    When I worked in schools, we were trained that if a student had a known seizure disorder, we should not call an ambulance except in specific situations. Basically, the idea was that if it’s not their first seizure, and it didn’t meet other conditions (which I don’t remember) there was no actual medical care needed and sending them to the hospital was not necessary. Generally the instruction was to send them to the school nurse—not for treatment, but because they would likely need to sleep afterward. Your employees knew their own health situation, and if they say they didn’t need medical care in those situations, they probably didn’t.

    1. Seizure*

      I think expecting co-workers to accurately identify the specific conditions to call an ambulance is potentially a very big and unreasonable ask.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I’ve worked or been classmates with several people who have had seizer disorders. Depending on the level of the disorder you can’t call an ambulance every time. It would be fair for the person to explain to their team and/or manager. basically this is what it looks like, this is how often it happens and what can triger it. Please do X,Y, Z. If I fall and hit my head or do not wake up after X minutes then you can call the ambulance. Otherwise just do X.

        It really is not that big of a deal.

        1. Seizure*

          I think you are over estimating the average persons ability to accurately make these kinds of medical decisions.

  49. Having a Scrummy Week*

    I belong to a small, locally-owned gym. The coaches/trainers and a few admin people handle everything – designing classes, personal training sessions, covering each others’ shifts, light cleaning (they do hire professional cleaners as well). And yes, that includes taking turns laundering the towels. If your gym is an all-hands-on-deck type of place, and you share that during the interview process, then the trainer needs to step up and help like everyone else.

    However, if you are asking trainers to perform hours of extra work each week in lieu of hiring professional cleaners or admins, I think that is completely unfair and something you need to evaluate. Maybe revise the job description and pay to include certain duties along these lines. If the trainer only signed on for personal training, then management is in the wrong.

  50. Can't think of a witty screen name*

    #1: I would also consider how many good employees you are pushing towards the door by not making this one jerk do his job.

    #3: I worked in suicide prevention as a trainer for 10 years. I think the suggested responses are spot on and the best first step. If they don’t work, I agree with other comments: take it seriously each time. The trick is to be calm and sincere: “I am worried about you. You must be feeling really down to think about suicide in a situation like this. You really should reach out to __ to get some help (IEP, crisis centre, hotline).” This has two benefits- it shows concern and provides resources if there really is a underlying mental health crisis masked by dark humour and, if there isn’t, it usually stops the joking pretty quickly.

  51. Jules the 3rd*

    LW3: Allison’s scripts will work if you get the tone right – matter of fact, along the line of “The coffee today is a dark roast”, and then follow up with something warm, even if it’s just a “thanks!” and a smile.

    You can also soften it more, and sample script for that might be:
    “Hey, I have really enjoyed getting to know you! But the suicide jokes are really upsetting to me. Should I be worried about you? If not, could the suicide jokes stop?”

    You could also suggest a more positive option, like “whelp, guess I’ll just go to the beach now” or “Time to go pet a dog / cat.” Bonus points for bringing in a Chia pet to ‘pet’…

    Good luck, and thank you for staying with us!

  52. Ben*

    My dad has epilepsy. It’s been reasonably under control for as long as I remember with the occasional minor episode. From what he’s said, on occasions when he’s had a seizure away from home and someone who doesn’t know him as well calls an ambulance, the result is basically that he’s awake and fine by the time the ambulance arrives, but the ambulance crew will have to go through their procedures anyway to confirm that and it all just wastes everyone’s time. This is not in the US, so cost of healthcare was not an issue here: it just wasn’t worthwhile.

    Similarly during first aid training I was told that you should call an ambulance if someone without a known history of seizures had one, or if the seizures lasted more than a short time or recurred within a short time. An “ordinary” seizure for someone who you know has epilepsy won’t need an ambulance, just making sure they’re safe.

    This doesn’t require specialist knowledge or a “treatment plan” or legal approval, IMO, it’s fairly basic first aid which includes knowing when it really is serious enough actually to need medical attention.

    1. Cat Lover*

      You’re correct, but all that needs to be in an action plan somewhere. Seizures, even in people that have a history, can go downhill quickly.

    2. Reebee*

      What? Liability is quite serious. Treatment plans are quite serious. Most people aren’t medical professionals trained to ascertain levels of seizuring and to automatically know “when it really is serious enough.”

      Honestly, I cannot believe the myopia woven throughout here.

      1. New Jack Karyn*

        You have many people with epilepsy telling you what works for them. You’re being awfully alarmist about how they manage their lives.

    3. Spooz*

      I think it does require a mutually agreed plan of action if the employees are actively telling you to disregard standard medical advice and NEVER call an ambulance. It’s the balance between their wishes and what one usually ought to do that is the legal tricky area, not establishing what standard advice actually IS.

  53. Tesuji*

    LW1:

    It sounds like the LW wants the trainer to do maintenance work on their own time without getting paid, purely as a cost of being contracted for the classes, and the boss thinks the *trainer* is the one being entitled?

    If you want an employee, pay them as an employee. If he’s getting paid a flat fee per class as an independent contractor, I’m completely okay with him telling her to go f__k herself for trying to assign him tasks outside of the classes.

  54. Dust Bunny*

    #1 OMG just let him go. He’s entitled and lazy. Don’t make all your other trainers pick up his slack.

    1. blood orange*

      Came here to say this! Even if he’s a good trainer, even a great trainer, he’d have to be worth the cultural issues he’s causing to keep him (along with potentially losing other staff, or even just losing their respect). If you can’t enforce such a small thing with this guy, why should the rest of the trainers and staff do what you ask?

      1. KateM*

        Just what I was wondering myself – why should trainers and staff do housekeeping work? Doesn’t OP have enough cleaners hired that they are pushing it on trainers, and not on “take turns” basis, but “who has earliest class” basis?

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Normally, I agree with this sentiment, but LW said it’s literally 20 seconds. There are a lot of other issues with this guy; I feel the working for free bit is a red herring.

  55. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    #3 It is not normal to “joke” about offing oneself, especially over minor things. Even if Mel does not seriously considering suicide it does not mean that they do not need help. If I were you next time Mel says something like that tell them “It really concerns me when you say things like X. Not only should you not joke about suicide because you never know who may have been affected, but it concerns people and makes them feel like they have done something to you. Please stop and if you need support here are resources …

    Also would like to plug some resources for in the US.
    * call/text 988 suicide and crisis lifeline You can call even if you are concerned about someone else

    * HOPELINE: Text “hopeline” to 741741

    *Most areas have 211 by United Way. You can call 211 and get assistance with various things, not just mental health but if you need financial assistance, etc.

  56. TootsNYC*

    I really like the idea of objecting to the suicide talk on the grounds of how it affects other people, including you.

    I think this is an important point we can all make in the face of problematic conversation, sexist jokes, racist comments, etc.

    and swearing, even. I’m OK w/ an F-bomb, but I do not like to hear people say, “Jesus Christ” as a swear word (oddly, I don’t get upset about “God” in similar uses, idkw); I ask them to please not use that particular curse, it bothers me to hear it.

    You don’t like it. Other people might be harmed by it. That’s enough reason to request that other people not do it.

    Make it a request, because that’s what it is. And decent people will try to honor it.

  57. Alan*

    I only recently learned something that I wish I had known decades ago: ERs exist only to stabilize you. I had an emergent condition on a weekend, online sources were telling me to go to the ER, so I called my own doctor to confirm and she said “No, because they’re not going to bring in a specialist to see you. They just won’t. Once it’s clear that you’re stable, they’re going to send you home. See me first thing in the morning.” Given that context, no, sending someone to the ER for an epileptic episode would be a waste, and probably a very costly waste.

  58. TheBunny*

    LW#1

    So let me sum up… this trainer is consistently the 1st person there in the morning… so by default the am towels are ALWAYS his responsibility. Not occasionally, always.

    He’s paid per 30 minute class. Not by the hour, by the class. He’s not paid for non class time.

    How in the world do you think it’s wrong for him to push back in consistently being asked to work for free?

    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I think the class time is seperate from the training. It would be nice to get some clarification but I understood it to be that he does personal training (so is there in the morning for the early crowd) and then also does some of the classes.

        1. Tesuji*

          Wouldn’t be the first such establishment or manager that didn’t grasp the difference between an employee and an independent contractor. There exist gyms in which all personal trainers are independent contractors who don’t receive an hourly wage.

          Without it being explicit that she understands the difference between an employee and an independent contractor, that letter doesn’t give me the confidence to assume that the LW is making that distinction.

          That “This is mandatory.” reads to me like every power-tripping retail manager I’ve ever met, who doesn’t grasp that they can’t just declare labor law void because they really really want to. The LW comes across as someone who doesn’t comprehend that requiring off-the-clock work is illegal and exploitative. I mean, she said it’s *mandatory*; why doesn’t that settle things?

    2. Fluffy Fish*

      The letter does not indicate that he is only paid per class he teaches. It’s highly likely that’s an additional payment on top of other compensation. Being staffed 24 hours – its exceedingly unlikely that classes or personal training appointments are happening in the overnight shift. No one would work that shift if they were receiving payment.

      1. Kevin Sours*

        Possibly. But it’s the only data point we have. Unless he’s being paid hourly and is on the clock I don’t think he’s out of line to push back on the expectation that perform unrelated duties just because he’s around.

    3. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Especially since cleaning up dirty towels from people who came in overnight to use the elliptical or whatever has nothing to do with personal training. This isn’t any different than asking an adjunct professor to tidy the hallways of their classroom building before their day begins. And that wouldn’t seem reasonable to people.

  59. Anne Shirley Blythe*

    Re Letter #1: I think there is some nuance in the towel issue. At first glance, the task doesn’t sound like much. But these are *used* towels at a gym, and some are on the floor. If I am paid to be a trainer (and not well paid at that), a daily “touch and transport the dirty towels” task could get really old, really quick.

    Then there’s the fact that this is a new edict. Yes, “other duties as assigned” is a thing. But if I am already underpaid, I already feel taken advantage of. And a task that falls (literally) under housekeeping would only make me more disgruntled.

    We know the staff is not there 24 hours. But perhaps there’s a need for shift work with housekeeping. Is this gym hoping to avoid this? Many companies pay a higher salary for night workers. I suspect the core of this problem is actually the 24-hour availability without 24-hour staff.

    We don’t know the LW or the trainer. But I can’t help but wonder if the “entitlement” could very well be understandable pushback against feeling used.

    1. Fluffy Fish*

      I misspoke, the staff aren’t there overnight at all. but the rest of my comment stands. I doubt they’re are being paid only when they teach a class and OP offered work with additional pay.

    2. dude, who moved my cheese?*

      I would also feel deeply undervalued if I started a conversation about compensation with my employer and they “offered for him to work in the office and clean the gym on Sundays.” :/

      2. Figaro*

        Absolutely, the trainer isn’t asking for cleaning shifts, the trainer is asking to be paid more for the skills they do have.

        In most jobs I think we’d find it odd if we asked for a pay rise and they offered us cleaning shifts, if that isn’t our job.

        Now of course you can say no, there’s no case for a pay increase. Then the trainer can decide whether to stay or go.

        But LW seems genuinely baffled about why someone wants to be paid more but doesn’t want to do more shifts in a totally different area of work.

        Training and cleaning are *completely* different skills.

        1. Nonym*

          Yeah, it’s wild. The trainer claims to be underpaid and refused to teach the group class at the offered flat rate. He asks for a raise and LW responds with “why don’t you get a second job cleaning on your days off?”, then acts bewildered and upset when he declines. That’s out of touch.

      3. AlsoADHD*

        100% — it sounds like the trainer was discussing the compensation structure and how he felt underpaid by it, not even asking for more training hours, let alone hours doing tasks he has no interest in.

  60. Little Beans*

    I am on the other side of the situation as OP #4. Due to a colleague’s recent departure, my boss is proposing to combine my role with the vacant role at a higher level, with me delegating some of my work to others. We wrote the job description together, and revised 2 other people’s roles in order to make this work. But now HR is telling us that we are required to do an open recruitment, so there’s a chance (hopefully really small) that I have talked myself out of a job entirely by agreeing to this promotion…

  61. Aggretsuko*

    I have a friend with heart issues nobody can figure out (example: she briefly passes out randomly a few times a week and then is fine), and she’s constantly told “go to the ER” and consistently she says there’s no point in going because the ER can’t figure out what to do and may even refuse to treat her because she’s too hard for them to deal with. I’ve taken her myself and nothing really happened other than her heart eventually settled down on its own hours later, sometimes she just gets fed up and leaves. I’ve had conversations with her about whether or not to take her because she vacillates all the time about whether or not people should automatically “know” to take her to the ER, vs. her constantly saying they can’t and won’t do anything.

    I can’t speak from seizures, but “please don’t take me to the ER” might have similar reasons such as “nothing they can do and it’ll rack up the medical bills.”

  62. CzechMate*

    OP 2 – My husband also has seizures, although (knock on wood) he hasn’t had one in almost ten years and can probably be officially classified as non-epileptic now. When we first started dating, we went over what to do if he had a seizure, and he also instructed me to not call an ambulance.

    He said that in addition to the ambulance being expensive, once you get to the hospital, there’s often nothing that can/should be done–the doctors will often say, “Welp, you had a seizure. Go home and take a nap.” Given that, accommodations for folks I’ve known with epilepsy have been more like “I just need to make sure I prevent a seizure by not standing for too long and having a water bottle handy.”

    But I think it’s also worth considering that staff and employees can’t necessarily tell a “normal” seizure for that person from an abnormal seizure, and when a person falls, they can also sustain injuries that are not directly related to the epilepsy, such as a head injury. Definitely talk to HR about this.

    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I think it is also good to know what type of seizer or what happens. One former coworker would know when one came and she would sit on the floor or lay down first.
      Honestly there should be more training on how to care for someone with seizer. It needs to be like any other first aid and there should be people on staff who know what to do.

  63. ReallyBadPerson*

    LW#1, you did not ask for this opinion, but your gym sucks, and that is at the heart of your problems. Gym chains that are open 24 hours for the convenience of members are notorious for paying poor wages to cleaning staff and desk workers, and are generally filthy because they cannot attract and keep the people who do the cleaning work round the clock. And they seldom provide the protective gear that would allow a worker to safely pick up nasty, potentially MRSA infected towels and deposit them in the proper bin and to clean the grit and crud people are tracking in at all hours.

    The solution isn’t to do battle with the trainer, but to close for a few hours each night to allow for proper cleaning. That way, you’ll have to hire fewer cleaners. No one needs 24-hour access to a gym.

    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Ok but I don’t think the OP has the ability to do this. They say they work for the gym as a manager, not that they are the owner or anything.

  64. Katydid*

    Man, all these people saying “I will not follow your wishes or respect that you know yourself better than me, I will call an ambulance knowing that it costs you physical, mental, and (depending on location) financial hardship because that makes ME feel better!” It blows my mind! I know they aren’t meaning to be so disrespectful, but they are absolutely putting their own comfort first and ignoring the person who they are claiming to help.

    1. Angstrom*

      I think it’s reasonable to want an action plan that’s more specific than “don’t call an ambulance”.
      If you want someone to take your wishes seriously, you need to take their concerns seriously.

        1. Figaro*

          The action plan can be “first aid training for at least three people in the building” or similar.

        2. Head Sheep Counter*

          This really depends on the size of the company. Its reasonable to imagine a large company having training in basic first aid and to perhaps have staff that go beyond basic. But in a company under 20 people? That may not be a reasonable expectation. It could be something that the company could choose to improve on but with the conflicting advice about liability regarding even CPR, I suspect that a risk adverse company would not add risk.

          1. Ben*

            The company I work for is around 20 people and has multiple trained first aiders. It’s not particularly onerous to do so.

            1. Head Sheep Counter*

              Are you in the States? There is a lot of iffy information regarding Good Samaritan laws here and a reasonable reason to imagine being sued if you attempt to help but things go sideways. That lawsuit won’t go far per se but … its reasonable to assume it would be a possible headache to deal with. You’d be surprised at how few people are first aid trained here and further how few people want to expose themselves to a risky situation.

              A reasonable company may have some unreasonable fear of liability especially of injuries or possible death in their work places.

              It is natural for people to step up in an emergency but it is also natural to panic or avoid. Seizures are scary and off-putting if you’ve never experienced them.

    2. Head Sheep Counter*

      The responses supporting the do not call are equally wild to me. If I see someone have a seizure (or other alarming medical problem) and have no context for said seizure – I’m going to seek medical care. If you are my colleague and we’ve walked through your plan… I’ll likely find someone else to back me up… as it would feel like making a “call” about normal or not normal is way beyond my skill set. As a company I’d be profoundly concerned about liability. I’d work to find a reasonable path with legal advice appropriate paid legal advice. Hopefully, that would look like leaving someone to seize alone without medical intervention, but actually in the US I’d be surprised.

    3. Maggie*

      I honestly find the don’t call under any circumstances wild. Me wanting to help an unresponsive person with a known medical condition is somehow me being a jerk? I know someone that has had a seizure disorder contribute to their death and they were 19 years old. Things can change quickly and not every seizure is going to be the same. From a purely workplace oriented standpoint it is not reasonable to just say oh never call me an ambulance.

  65. Bruce*

    LW2: I have a sad story related to epilepsy and ambulances: back in the 90s I had a friend who had epilepsy, it was poorly controlled and she had seizures a few times a year… never in my presence but often enough to affect her employability. If the seizure happened in public, she’d collapse, and well meaning people would call an ambulance. She’d wake up on the way to the hospital and it was too late to refuse transport. She was being stuck with ambulance and ER bills she could not afford, and it was adding to her general despair at being unemployed after years of education. This was before the ACA, so she had no health coverage, not even Medicaid. She died from an accident that was probably caused by a seizure, several of us friends thought her despair led her to be careless of her life. While health insurance coverage is better in the US these days than in the 90s, ambulance and ER care is still a problem, in many cases it won’t be covered properly. However I do agree with Alison and other commenters that you need a clear guideline for what situation should lead you to call the ambulance!

  66. An Honest Nudibranch*

    The amount of ableism in this comment section is honestly just kind of hard to read, but like – listen to people tell you what they need and do not need for their own specific bodies with conditions like epilepsy. They know much, much better than you do.

    Yes, when you are a workplace there might be additional issues to iron out (does it create a safety issue for this specific type of task, e.g. machinery? Is there company legal liability that needs to be taken into account in response plans? Do we need a way to communicate any needed safety info to other coworkers who might have to react to this?). There are certainly ways to have honest, empathetic conversations about things like that! And more importantly- those are about ways this would influence the workplace, not opinions on how your coworker should navigate their body.

    But what you should not do is play games of “people who have had these conditions for years could not possibly understand What Is Best For Them the way I could, a complete stranger with no medical experience.” Which happens all the time. It is beyond exhausting to feel like you have to give people a functional dissertation on your experiences with the healthcare system, what emergency services are and are not capable of giving you, the many reasons you have to think an event isn’t dangerous for you specifically, etc. . . . to get people to follow pretty basic instructions like “do not call EMS in this scenario.”

    And honestly LW – to be clear I think you had the right instincts in wanting to ask this, and I’m glad you did! It’s clear you care about the health and safety of your employees. But “listen to what people with disabilities say they need” is generally the safest and most empathetic way to go about this for your employees, and anything in terms of “what are the *company’s* needs, here” is, as Alison said, almost certainly above your pay-grade unless you work with employee safety or legal liability.

    I am, however, reeeeally annoyed at how whenever this conversation comes up there invariably ends up being a flood of comments of the “well of course I would ignore your medical requests, I’m uncomfortable” variety. For those commenters: it is maybe worth some self-reflection on why you are prioritizing *your* discomfort and *your* anxieties, over the emotional labor required to try to condense years worth of personal experience with one’s disability into a Understandable Bite-Size Approved Explanation for Lay-People to every coworker and family member and neighbor and random passerby to have pretty basic requests respected, and over the sometimes severe physical, mental, and financial consequences that ignoring those requests can have on the disabled person in question.

    1. Cat Lover*

      Yes, listen to what disabled people need, but get it in writing and have a lawyer look over it. The one seizure that turns life-threatening that results in a multi-million dollar lawsuit isn’t worth it imo.

    2. Head Sheep Counter*

      If what you need means I have significant liability… I’m not sure that the argument has as much ground as you think it does.

      Also, if what you need requires your work to make medical decisions for you (while you are incapacitated… but lets me honest… really at any point)… I think that its a big ask and an iffy ask.

      I do think that one could look at what the doctor’s written instructions are and if they are within the company’s ability to do (such as monitor or ignore) then the company should do that. Its the decision portion that seems… really really iffy.

      1. Hm*

        Except either way the work has to make a medical decision. Calling an an ambulance is not a non-action, it is a medical decision. And given many people’s experience with EMS it is a decision that may very well make the situation worse. I’m with Nudibranch here— LW2 isn’t wrong to ask, but “assume people have expertise on their own lives and conditions” is a good place to work from.

      2. An Honest Nudibranch*

        I do not disagree that it is reasonable (and recommended, imo) to require a doctor’s note in cases like this when you are talking to an employer, both for what would constitute a serious emergency and for if there are cases where the employee would be incapacitated from their duty. (Like, re: Letter Writer 2 clarifying one of the employees specifically said that not wanting their driver’s license suspended was part of the reason for not wanting an ambulance called, that is *a problem* – and it’s triple a problem if their job requires driving or operation of any sort of heavy machinery)

        But those decisions should be coming from medical professionals who know these specific patients, not the gut instinct of what looks scary to random laypeople who have no experience with the condition nor with how it expresses itself in the specific individuals in question.

        Like. . . I admit some projection is happening here, but I think people truly underestimate the amount of misery it is to have people put you in positions where you are charged thousands, condescended to by doctors, often put at more risk of injury in the process of being transported to the hospital in the first place. . . because they feel uncomfortable, and refuse to believe they might not be experts on your specific body. In all seriousness sometimes harm is coming from Well-Meaning People more than from the condition itself.

        Put it in writing if you need it in writing for liability reasons, sure. But when someone is telling you in advance what is and is not an emergency, and you have the opportunity to ask for clarification and for documentation supporting it. . . do that instead of pulling the “what if you’re wrong about your body, though” attitude or trying to make decisions on the fly.

        It’s really easy to say “well ya but what if I get sued for this rare chance” when you’re not the one dealing with the consequences of *un-needed* EMS calls and are ignoring people familiar with the situation telling you what the risk level actually is.

        (I also want to re-iterate: I am much less annoyed at the actual letter writer than I am at the deeply ableist “but that’s scary so I’ll ignore you” comments. But LW 2, I do recommend trying to require documentation from *the employees’ doctors* on when EMS should or shouldn’t be called / if there are any safety concerns for them returning to work after an incident, and consulting with a lawyer more familiar with workplace disability policy, instead of trying to rely on your own offhand knowledge of epilepsy in general. It is okay to rely on people who have more information than you do! You are not a doctor, and even if you were you are not these employees’ doctor – clarify with a lawyer what medical info you need to get appropriate accommodations set up, and then get that info from an actual medical professional.)

  67. Figaro*

    If the policy to ensure the best person is chosen and to avoid cronyism, is there a potential legal issue with them openly acknowledging they’ve already chosen someone if there’s legally protected characteristic in play?

    For example, if they’re an all white team, and the internal, preferred candidate is also white, and a Black candidate applies, could it be used as evidence that they’ve clearly decided to hire the white person before assessing all candidates fairly – even if that isn’t the primary factor in the decision?

    (And really, how do you draw a clear line between “we know and like this person, she’s one of us” and “racism” anyway?)

    If the Black candidate could demonstrate they were better or even just as good and wanted to claim racial discrimination, it seems like this could be used as part of their case… but there may need to be other factors present too.

  68. CubeFarmer*

    Disagree with the advice to LW#1. Not doing this mandatory task is terrible for morale.

    I’d let this guy go.

  69. CommanderBanana*

    LW#3, you can also leave a GlassDoor review about the interview process. I understand not wanting to do this as it may be very obvious it was you who left it, especially if you’re interested in working with that org in the future (assuming they even look at their GlassDoor reviews – I’m continually surprised by organizations that don’t).

    The interview reviews have been very helpful as job searcher.

  70. NurseThis*

    Re #2…..I think this is a big ask for untrained people. I say this as someone with epilepsy in the family and as a neurology RN. A routine seizure can morph into status epilepticus which is life threatening. A lot depends on how long the seizure lasts. Your average office manager may not be able to discern the difference. They need more direct guidance. Maybe like “once noted if the event goes more than 5 minutes, it’s ok to call an ambulance”.

    I fully understand how annoyed people with seizure disorders get when ambulances are called unnecessarily. The bills can be enormous. However asking your workplace to manage your illness is a lot. The company legal team might want to weigh in on this. Also, perhaps WFH is a better fit….no commute, no interference.

    1. Angstrom*

      Exactly.
      For many people with seizure disorders, their “typical” seizure is not a life-threatening event and they do not need an ambulance or trip to the ED.
      When a seizure goes bad, it is a true life-threatening emergency and needs immediate medical care.
      It is not reasonable to expect untrained people to make that determination without clear and specifc guidance.
      It is not reasonable for the employer to accept the legal responsibility for not calling an ambulance without clear and specific guidance.

    2. gkj1223*

      I feel similarly. I have a friend who (like many posters here) was very frustrated with people taking her seizures too seriously. But also, she died of a seizure. She was well aware of the risk, and lived a fulfilling (but tragically short) life around her illness. But ultimately, she had dozens of seizures where calling EMS would accomplish nothing, and one seizure where calling EMS as soon as it happened might have saved her life. Even when the plan is followed properly, even when you’re so sure the episode is the same as all the other ones, even when waiting 5 minutes would have made no difference, it is a very heavy burden to know you intentionally delayed medical care to someone as they lay dying.

      If you have a seizure disorder that causes you to become unresponsive for a meaningful period of time, you’re forcing people around you to make incredibly high-stakes care decisions. That’s a reasonable and necessary thing to ask for, but it’s still a big ask, and it does no good to pretend otherwise. The person’s stated needs and expectations have to consider that their coworkers are (usually) not medical professionals, might have low confidence in their ability to assess the progression of the seizure, and might have a much lower risk tolerance than the person with the illness. Even if you have a good seizure plan, if you are unable to communicate during a prolonged episode, and assure bystanders you’re fine, you have to accept the other party has no choice but to use their own judgment.

      Demanding medical assistance from your coworkers, then mocking them as “scared” for using their best judgment in deciding the situation has escalated to the point of calling EMS, is not a helpful mindset. Some people are useless in an emergency. Some people never panic and do everything perfectly and with confidence. But most people are in between those extremes. An accommodation plan has to work within that reality.

    3. Midazzled Midazolam*

      You raise another good point I haven’t thought about. Reminds me of this one time I got schooled by a cop about a medical decision. Here’s the catch, she’s right and I was wrong. I made assumptions about how much medical and nursing experience an average person would have, turned out it reality is they are as knowledgeabout about it as I am of SQL or carpentry or carrot farming. If her usual family know how to deal with it, good on them. Doesn’t mean your workplace would.

      1. Nightengale*

        this makes me think about the advice I got from an EMS dispatcher about a seizure one time

        I’m a pediatrician and while it hasn’t come up my in my current job, I have cared for kids acutely having seizures in a hospital setting and when I worked in a clinic attached to a special education school the nurses would occasionally call in the medical staff for a prolonged seizure.

        A few years ago I was at a non-work event that was held in a space where not everyone was part of the event. Someone who was not not part of our event group had a tonic clonic seizure. No one there knew the person and so I called EMS while others did crowd control and someone went to let the EMTs in. I told the dispatcher I was a pediatrician but here as a bystander responding in a non-medical setting. I gave all the location information and described the seizure, when it started, the person is breathing. She kept asking questions like if the person was diabetic (we don’t see a medic alert bracelet but I don’t know this person) but then started telling me not to do CPR. I was like, why would I do CPR, this person is breathing?

        But I can absolutely guarantee panicked bystanders have attempted CPR on breathing people having seizures and so she was just following her seizure advice protocol.

        1. Midazzled Midazolam*

          For real! How terrifying is febrile convulsion for people who had never seen it before? Anecdotally I’d say most people find that’s more terrifying than letting a toddler play unsupervised in a puddle. I hope the latter changes a lot now.

  71. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

    #4 I worked somewhere that both has the written rule that the job must be posted for X days and at least 2 other candidates interviewed. AND has the unwritten rule that internal applicants must always be given an interview “out of courtesy”. But also that they can not be interviewed without their supervisor knowing. So internal candidates who have no shot get excited and then also have to continue to work in their old job after letting their boss know they were looking to leave.

    It is such a huge waste of time on everyone’s part, believe me the people who interviewed you are at least as annoyed by the policy as you are. But it is a CYA move for HR.

  72. HonorBox*

    OP1 – If my memory serves me correctly and also the stories I’ve heard are true, Barry Bonds had a particularly plush locker setup when he was with the SF Giants. Like a recliner and stuff like that. Other guys didn’t get that. There was a little more leeway given to the superstar. But also Bonds played every day and did his job exceptionally well.

    If this individual is a superstar trainer who draws more members simply because he’s as good as he is at his job, maybe you give a little more leeway. Maybe you overlook some of the complaints about pay, even when you’re offering him additional opportunities. But is he a superstar trainer? Are people flocking to you because of him? Regardless though he doesn’t get to only do what he wants to do. Picking up towels is a basic and easy part of the job.

  73. CommanderBanana*

    Also, oof, the seizure question…having worked for plaintiff attorneys for some time, I think my perspective is always skewed to look for potential opportunities for litigation, so take this with a grain of salt, but: if an employee has a fatal seizure at work, or dies because care was delayed because an ambulance wasn’t called, that is the first thing a wrongful death lawsuit will latch onto if the family decides to file suit.

    While I would normally be 100% in support of people making the healthcare decisions that are right for them, I personally could not and would not agree to not call an ambulance if I thought someone needed one, especially if that person was an employee or coworker. And I would not do anything that would open myself personally to liability for not having made that call.

    1. Maggie*

      Ok same 100%. If you’re unresponsive I’m calling medical help. If the employees mom or spouse files a wrongful death suit they’re not going give a crap that the employee verbally told someone not to call an ambulance. Also I couldn’t personally live with myself letting an unresponsive person just lay there having a medical event.

      1. CommanderBanana*

        Yeah, it’s all fun and games until you’re the target of the multimillion dollar wrongful death or negligence lawsuit.

        1. I Have RBF*

          Can they sue you for the unnecessary expense of over $1,000 that they have to pay when you called the unneeded ambulance and forced them to be transported against their wishes and get chewed out by the ER doc? It’s all fun and games and protection from liability until you bankrupt your own employee with unneeded medical bills for nothing.

      2. An Honest Nudibranch*

        Do you really not hear the “the small chance that both the employee is dishonest/uninformed *and* that their family will maliciously sue if something goes wrong is much more important than the almost certain financial consequences and often *increased* physical risk that will happen to this employee who clearly told me not to call an ambulance” part of this?

        “Unresponsive” can mean *a lot* of things, and a surprising number of them are pretty harmless to the person in question. Like if you have no clue what’s going on with them, sure call an ambulance, but like. . . if someone tells you in advance “hey I have episodes, they look like this, *do not call a doctor*,” you can just, you know, believe them. Or get a doctor’s note clarifying the issue if you’re worried about liability from a workplace perspective.

        But don’t pretend this is about concern for the person in question when you are doing things that are near guaranteed to hurt them so you can “live with yourself,” lol.

        Signed, a narcoleptic who will almost certainly go back to normal in a few minutes after an “episode,” thank you very much

      3. New Jack Karyn*

        “Also I couldn’t personally live with myself letting an unresponsive person just lay there having a medical event”

        About 25 years ago, a customer in the pizza joint I worked in had a seizure. I put him in recovery position and had my coworker call 911–so I get it when you say you don’t want to leave someone on the floor like that.

        But if a coworker tells you they have occasional seizures, describes them to you, and asks that you not call 911 unless they hit their head or the seizure lasts longer than 5 minutes–what would you do then? That’s the question at hand.

  74. Lynn*

    Regarding #2 in the UK it’s common for Epileptic people to have a Seizure Action Plan that clearly describes when an ambulance is required and when it is not (and a whole lot of other info). lots of people with epilepsy will have a seizure and not require hospital treatment, so this is a formal way of providing a piece of paperwork that can be followed by first aiders in the workplace.

  75. Semi-retired admin*

    LW 2, you can call the ambulance and let the employee decide whether or not they wish to be transported. There is no charge for an evaluation, just when there’s transport. In my former life, our safety training emphasized calling if in doubt.

  76. Cat Lover*

    So, I’m a paramedic, so my view is a bit skewed because I’ve seen the other end of “but they told me not to call!” for medical emergencies.

    Talk to the employee/s and have a seizure action plan in place. Seizures look different on everyone. Their MD can usually put something together. What are the parameters for calling? Usually it’s if a seizure lasts more than 5 minutes, multiple seizures without regaining consciousness, injury sustained during seizure (fell and hit head, for example), or airway compromise— EMS need to be called because there can be life threatening complications. For example, if they start vomiting, they cannot protect their airway and needs suctioning to avoid aspiration and respiratory arrest.

    Now, as a medic I will say this- when in doubt CALL! If we get there and the patient is out of their seizure and alert and oriented, and vitals are stable, they can refuse transport.

    No matter what, please talk to these employees and get something on file, in writing.

  77. Rebecca*

    OP #1 – Is the trainer actually an employee, or is he considered an independent contractor? I’ve worked in a lot of gym and spa environments in a specialist role like that and I was always considered an independent contractor. I was paid only on commission, and not paid for any time outside a class or appointment. That might not be the case here – maybe the trainer is just a problem – but if it IS the case, he’s right not to do any extra unpaid work, even a “20 second” task. A lot of independent contractors in those jobs won’t want to rock the boat (in large part because if they do they get assigned fewer classes/appointments), so they’ll do the extra tasks even though they aren’t getting paid. Putting towels away might seem small, but if he’s getting paid commission only, it’s not ok to ask that – similar to requiring employees to get to work 15 minutes before their shift starts so they can set up before clocking in. Again, maybe that isn’t the case here, but it set off a warning bell as someone who has seen this OFTEN with independent contractors. IF he’s an independent contractor, that time is his.

  78. Indolent Libertine*

    With respect to the employee who has seizures, I honestly do understand the people who are saying “Please don’t ignore my explicit, knowledgeably informed instructions and stick me with an ambulance bill and an ER bill just because doing so makes you feel better and like you ‘did something.’ ” And clearly it’s beyond the pale for observers to argue the EMT’s into believing that the epileptic employee is not competent to make the decision to refuse transport. But I wonder whether there’s an issue of consent here, with respect to the other employees, who feel that they are being asked to make medical determinations that they are unqualified to make? I’ve never, to my knowledge, seen someone have a seizure. I think I’d find that utterly terrifying. I had some first aid training back in the Pleistocene Era when I was in Camp Fire Girls, but not since then, and I understand how a bystander would think it was bonkers not to call 911. Unless the employer is going to offer and mandate first aid training for all employees, including specific training about dealing with seizures (which probably isn’t a bad idea anyhow), I’m not sure how fair it is to tell untrained coworkers that they have to make the judgment about whether this is a “call” situation or a “let it proceed” situation.

    1. New Jack Karyn*

      Having a few staff having their 1st Aid card is probably a good idea. But it really sounds like the standards are clear for people with diagnosed epilepsy: More then 5 minutes, bonked head during fall, stopped breathing, vomiting–if any of those happen, call. Otherwise, no call.

  79. Texas Teacher*

    LW 2 – I would strongly suggest a written emergency plan. I have chronic medical issues that include potentially deadly touch allergies. I have an epi pen. I had a emergency plan that I gave my boss, the school nurse, and my teammates.

  80. Irish Teacher.*

    LW2, I had two classmates when I was at school who had epilepsy. Never did either of them need an ambulance called. I know people can have the same diagnosis and still very different needs but I don’t think a seizure necessarily would require an ambulance. Once the seizure was over, the office just called their parents to take them home. And this was in Ireland, where an ambulance does not cost money and in schools, which I would assume to be more careful than workplaces about such things.

    Honestly, in the case of my two classmates, by the time the ambulance arrived, they could have been back participating in the class.

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      So basically my point is that this may not be about them worrying about the cost or not being able to drive afterwards. It may simply be them informing you as to what is needed and not needed and basically reassuring you that there is no need for an ambulance in their cases.

  81. Craig*

    my training said statically most people joking about suicide are suicidal. I reported a friend joking about it everyone else thought it was just a joke but she was sectioned. it needs to be taken seriously. too many stories of people who do nothing because they think it’s just a joke then the person offs themselves

  82. Awesome Possum*

    LW2, I’ve spent years as the primary caregiver for a friend w/epilepsy – frequent seizures due to a past brain trauma. Two thoughts:

    – 911 is generally not necessary, as seizures follow a (unique to each person, yet..) predictable course. Rest, recovery, & possibly private hygiene or movement assistance are all that’s required. A seizure is definitely frightening to witness. But once you’re used to it, it becomes as routine and predictable as a migraine.

    Put “seizure” in the “migraine” box in your head. It’s debilitating but highly manageable. Ask yourself how you’d respond to an employee’s severe migraine? You’d certainly want to help & be prepared for worse symptoms, but you’d assume that they already have a plan in place.

    – Do the people drive themselves after a seizure? If yes, that’s.. um.. concerning. IME, brain function is *highly* sluggish after a seizure. My friend took 2 days to get her conversational abilities & balance back, BUT she often had grand mal seizures. Other varieties can take only minutes or hours to recover from.

    If they drive themselves, ask HR how to approach it? I’m sorry: I have medical experience, not office experience. I do know that I’d consider it the same as drunk driving.

    If they don’t drive themselves, then no worries on your end. Thank you for thinking this thru, and for reaching out and opening yourself up to advice!

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