employee expects us all to attend her destination wedding

by Alison Green on October 1, 2024

A reader writes:

I’m the owner of a company. Our team is mighty, but tiny — only 10 people, three of whom are in leadership/senior positions. One employee firmly believes that since we spend most of our time at work, coworkers should function more like family than like, well, coworkers. We try to find ways to gently reinforce that we all need appropriate boundaries at work, but it comes up often enough to make it clear that she considers us to be her close friends.

She is getting married next year, in a destination wedding taking place in another part of the country. She has invited all staff and made it clear that including the whole team was a priority for her in the planning process. At this point, she fully expects that every employee will attend. It seems like she’s using the wedding as a “friendship test” of sorts, and already speaks as if we are all confirmed guests. The invitations haven’t even gone out yet!

Of course, not all of the staff are planning on attending, though my question is about myself. I know that this event is emotionally meaningful to her. As the head of the company, do I suck it up and pay to fly across the country and get a room in one of the country’s most expensive cities to attend a wedding I don’t really want to go to? On the one hand, I just don’t believe you can expect people to automatically be able come to your destination wedding. On the other, I worry about her morale if I skip out on this event. (This may be an issue anyway, given her colleagues will not all be in attendance.) What is the etiquette for bosses attending employee weddings?

I answer this question — and two others — over at Inc. today, where I’m revisiting letters that have been buried in the archives here from years ago (and sometimes updating/expanding my answers to them). You can read it here.

Other questions I’m answering there today include:

  • My overworked colleague is missing deadlines
  • What’s a reasonable amount of time to respond to a reference request?
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{ 139 comments }

{ 139 comments… read them below or add one }

    2. Paint N Drip*

      Especially if they have a financial burden attached, like this one – either they don’t even consider it OR they don’t care about your financial well-being OR they don’t want to be friends with people who have financial burdens/limits (all options defend the position “huge personality red flag”)

      Reply ↓
    1. HailRobonia*

      nycnpo, are you psychic? I literally used that phrase (“no” is a complete sentence) earlier this morning when a coworker asked me what they should say to some a marginally-prospective client with an unreasonable request.

      Reply ↓
    2. Clisby*

      I’m not sure I’d make that trip for immediate family (at the moment, that would mean my 2 children).

      Frankly, I assume a “destination wedding” means “we don’t care if you come, but send a present.”

      Reply ↓
    3. sheworkshardforthemoney*

      “Heck no” was my MIL’s response to a destination wedding in another country with the ceremony taking place at midnight on New Year’s Eve. It must have sounded magical on paper.

      Reply ↓
  3. spaceelf*

    You had me at destination wedding.

    If she wants to pay for it, maybe asking everyone to go is fine.

    As she’s senior leadership, how does she plan to handle the logistics of everyone in the company attending her wedding at the same time? Will the business close?

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    1. WellRed*

      I didn’t read it as she’s senior leadership. Though I admittedly think the concept of senior leadership on a team of 10 is ambitious.

      Reply ↓
      1. CB212*

        I also read it as one of the seven ‘regular’ employees, because OP had just said there are 3 in senior leadership but didn’t specify it was one of those three.

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    2. Observer*

      If she wants to pay for it, maybe asking everyone to go is fine.

      Only if she is *asking*.

      Because money is not the only issue. People have a lot of reasons why they may not want to, or even be able to, take a trip like this beyond the direct cost of the trip. And no one owes anyone any explanations about this stuff.

      She’s not entitled to get on her high horse about this. Nor is she entitled to know that Sue can’t come because she can’t leave her elderly parent, and Jay can’t come because his doctor told him that flying is dangerous for him, and Chris can’t come because a sibling is getting married that week, etc. Some of these things are more personal and sensitive than others, but NONE of them are any of FAAAmily CW’s business nor does she have any standing to judge.

      I think we agree on that ;)

      Reply ↓
    3. Momma Bear*

      This was my thought as well. It’s not a big company and could have a huge impact on the company if everyone even wanted to go at the same time. It’s way too much to ask. They are coworkers, not family members.

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  4. H3llifIknow*

    I don’t get destination weddings. I don’t get expecting co-workers who are not friends independent and irrespective of work to attend weddings, etc… It makes no sense to me. I have friends from work who are invited to our holiday open houses, backyard cookouts, etc… but the idea of saying, “Hey some spend $5K to join us in Hawaii for our wedding on YOUR vacation time and dime” is just so … alien to me. WHO DOES THAT? Is it simple self centeredness? Is it greed? Is it narcissism? Is it just a further manifestation of “It’s MY DAY to be a PRINCESS”? That employee is going to be … difficult when 90% of her colleagues “fail” her friendship test.

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    1. metadata minion*

      My sister had one, but it was also a situation where a most of the guests were going to be coming from out of town anyway, so it didn’t actually make any difference in terms of cost or time to fly to one place as another.

      Reply ↓
      1. Kitry*

        Yep, fourth-generation army brat here- we are so thoroughly scattered over the world that there’s not actually a way for anyone in my family to have a NON-destination wedding, lol.

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    2. MagnaCarta*

      “Destination wedding” can mean a lot of different things.

      My husband and I were married about an hour from where we lived at the time. It was a “destination wedding” (multi-hour flight) for 90% of our guests.

      If we had married in my hometown, it would have been a “destination wedding” for about 75% of guests. In his hometown, maybe a “destination” for 60%.

      The colleague’s wedding might have been in her hometown or her husband’s hometown, or yes, maybe a Hawaiian resort.

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      1. SHEILA, the co-host*

        I had the same thought. My Aunt and Uncle moved to Florida when my cousins and I were young. The rest of the extended family remained in northern Illinois and Southern Wisconsin. When my cousin got married some 20 years later, the wedding was in Florida, which was her and her [now-ex] husband’s home. So it was a destination wedding for most of the extended family, but not for any of their immediate family, his extended family, or their friends. If they had come back to Illinois for the wedding, then all of their friends would have had to travel. No matter what, it was going to be a “destination” wedding for at least 1/3 of the guests.

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      2. Dust Bunny*

        Yeah, I was raised and still live far from all the various branches of my extended family and went to college in another state (so my college friends are from all over), so a hometown wedding for me would be a destination wedding for almost literally all of the guests. My parents are from not at all the same parts of the country so getting married near either branch would still mean a destination for the other branch and most of my friends.

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      3. Bee*

        Yeah, my cousin had a “destination wedding” in a resort town several hours from the nearest airport – but it was in the backyard of her childhood home, where her parents still lived, and since they did it in the off season it was probably still cheaper for everyone than traveling to the major city where she and her now-husband lived. Everyone scatters so much these days that hometown & local weddings usually still require most of the guests to travel. (That said, if you’re going to a place that’s far away, expensive, and where neither of you has ever lived, I think you have to assume that 75% of your invited guests will not come.)

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      4. Richard Hershberger*

        It may well be that the usage has expanded, but to me a destination wedding does not mean merely that some of the guests have to travel. If that is all it means, destination weddings have been around forever. The key elements are that everyone travels, including the happy couple, and to what would typically be considered a vacation location.

        Reply ↓
        1. Le Sigh*

          I agree with your definition, but I have also seen people expand the definition of “destination wedding” over the years to basically anything that isn’t having a local backyard/courthouse/church basement wedding like “people used to.” Basically any wedding that requires hotel/flight, in some minds, constitutes outrage over requiring a destination wedding.

          But I think the key difference is people are more likely to move around these days and have friends/family all over the country, and in many regards, travel got easier. So for a lot of folks, any wedding in any location will require folks to travel. That doesn’t make it a destination wedding, of course, by try telling that to my extended family.

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          1. Doreen*

            Even those “local backyard/courthouse/church weddings people used to have involved some traveling . I had some cousins who moved to Pennsylvania in the 60s. The rest of the family traveled from NY for their weddings. It was always traditional for a wedding to be local to the bride and groom – what’s different is that people move around as you say. But I wonder if people really don’t see any difference between a wedding in Indiana where the bride and groom live and one at a resort in Hawaii, where none of the attendees live, or if they’ve just never encountered the latter.

            Reply ↓
            1. Le Sigh*

              In thinking about it, I wonder if the distinction, in some minds, is whether the couple lives there. I said this further down, but when I got married, I lived in an expensive city that would have made it pricey to pay for a wedding and for others to travel to. Since much of our guest list would have to travel no matter what, we picked a smaller city close to our immediate families to make it easier on them and reduce costs. The city was also special to us, but it definitely wasn’t a destination. That didn’t stop some people from grumbling (usually folks who were looking to grumble about *something* who seem to view a wedding invite as a threat). Oh well.

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          2. Observer*

            basically anything that isn’t having a local backyard/courthouse/church basement wedding like “people used to.” Basically any wedding that requires hotel/flight, in some minds, constitutes outrage over requiring a destination wedding.

            LOL!

            Just on this subthread alone we have examples of people actually doing the “backyard wedding” that required a significant proportion of the guests to travel.

            I agree that you are right that some people have over-extended the term. But it does seem to me that the LW wasn’t using the term that way.

            But regardless, you simply can’t expect people to travel to your wedding, even if it’s not a “destination wedding.” Just, maybe folks should skip the outrage.

            Reply ↓
            1. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

              In my mind, it’s only a destination wedding if the marrying couple have to travel there too (and usually because it’s also the honeymoon location). But then, I’m old and uninterested in outrage.

              Reply ↓
              1. Le Sigh*

                By the time I got married, I lived in a an expensive city that would have made it pretty pricey to pay for a wedding and for others to travel to. Since much of our guest list would have to travel no matter what, we picked a smaller city close to our immediate families to make it easier on them and reduce costs. It definitely wasn’t a destination, but it didn’t stop some people from grumbling (usually folks who were looking to grumble about something). Oh well.

                Reply ↓
              2. Dust Bunny*

                Same, but I think it’s expanded to “allow” people to complain about having to travel to a place where the majority of the family does not live rather than the bride and groom coming “home”.

                Reply ↓
          3. Chiara*

            Yeah, a friend’s mom still gives her grief for having a “destination wedding”… in the city where she and her husband live, as opposed to her hometown two states away

            Reply ↓
        2. Myrin*

          Yeah, I thought that was the definition of the term – otherwise it’s just “travelling to attend a wedding of people who happen to not live close to me”.

          Reply ↓
        4. Turquoisecow*

          Yes. A destination wedding means it’s in a place where neither of the couple nor any of their guests live. A tropical island, a resort town, another country.

          I got married about an hour away from where we lived at the time (we have since moved closer) and pretty much everyone had to drive at least that distance and stayed in a hotel overnight. But it was not a destination wedding, it was at a country club in an area we really liked.

          Reply ↓
        5. H3llifIknow*

          Yes and that’s how I understand it, as well. My SIL’s sister had one in Jamaica. I’ve been to a few in Hawaii. A friend had one in Iceland. My family is also military so yeah someone is traveling to get to the wedding but not EVERYONE is traveling to a resort/whatever spot to get to someone ELSE’s DREAM vacation.

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      5. KateM*

        Among the people who have asked me to their weddings, it has been quite common to book a touristy place an hour or more drive away for their wedding party. But it is also a standard that the couple pays for the overnight stay of guests (basically books the whole guesthouse or whatever it is) – although it may be that you need to sleep on a mattress or share room with three other people.

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      6. Quill*

        Yeah, I think in this case “destination wedding” is referring to the fact that it’s in a really expensive (and probably touristy) locale. Which does put a much greater financial burden on getting and staying there, even if it is someone’s hometown.

        I get inviting work friends (not AT work, if you don’t have their phone numbers / emails / address to do the inviting outside of work you aren’t good enough friends) when the wedding is close to where you work. Since that isn’t the case, a reasonable bride should have no problem with “have fun, make sure to get some good pictures! We’ll hold down the fort.”

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    3. Abigail*

      I’ve noticed that most marriages are male-female but most criticisms of weddings are centered only on the bride.

      There is a way to discuss weddings without defaulting to language like “my day to be a princess!”

      The couple decided to have a destination wedding. The couple decided to invite co-workers. That is more accurate and isn’t the low grade sexism that comes out when discussing weddings.

      Reply ↓
      1. AF Vet*

        YMMV, but I’ve had personal experience with a LOT more unreasonable brides than grooms. Most grooms give input on what they care about, but simply don’t care about details to the extent the bride, mother, sisters, friends, etc., do. Yes, this could be a groom stating that he’s always dreamed of flying to Fiji to get married. But this story is about a bride with an unreasonable expectation – that her coworkers attend her destination wedding across a country large or inconvenient enough to require a flight and hotel. Sounds like princess / thoughtless behavior to me. :)

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        1. Dust Bunny*

          The flip side is that if something goes wrong it’s the bride who gets criticized. Either way, the groom is assumed to be along for the ride, so he gets neither the credit nor the side-eye.

          Once again, women have to be more invested, and then are mocked for being more invested.

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          1. TeaCoziesRUs*

            Or is the event organizer criticized when the event flops in some way? If you have an active groom, most people recognize that it’s on both of them. If you, like me, were the bride who planned it all while honoring my husband’s desires? Yeah, a sucky party is on me.

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          2. MCMonkeybean*

            Thank you for saying this! I went into my wedding planning with the whole “oh, I don’t care about any of this I’m just excited to be married because I love my partner” attitude but quickly learned that if you don’t force yourself to care about napkins enough to sit down with the vendor and pick out which of the 20 shades of white you want–then there won’t be any napkins!!

            It’s one of the millions of ways this kind of emotional labor is often foisted into women and then just as you say we criticize them for it.

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            1. Observer*

              quickly learned that if you don’t force yourself to care about napkins enough to sit down with the vendor and pick out which of the 20 shades of white you want–then there won’t be any napkins!!

              Really? I remember my own wedding planning, and as is common in Orthodox Jewish weddings, “made” my daughters’ weddings (and had very nice input to my sons’ wedding, because they all have really nice parents, fortunately.) The color of the napkins never came up. I do believe that we were given some choices on color scheme, but for the most part that was just the flowers / table centerpieces.

              I can’t imagine having to deal with all of that level of detail. And I do like stuff to be nice – which all of the weddings were!

              Reply ↓
              1. HannahS*

                Also Jewish–it depends on how you do it. If you go through a banquet hall or other major venue, they often provide the linens and have set decor options. But mine was held in a JCC event room. Their in-house kosher caterer provided dishes but not napkins, so I had to source them myself.

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            2. Lady Danbury*

              I designed my sister’s wedding invitations (with minimal input from her, lol) because they had to be done and she truly didn’t care. Wedding planning is one of many tasks where the woman becomes the default planner/decision maker, even if she truly doesn’t care. And if it’s not her, then it’s often another female proxy (sister, mother, wedding planner, etc.).

              Reply ↓
            4. Selina Luna*

              Heh. On specifically the napkin thing: my caterer included disposable plates and flatware (that was great for us; much less extra cleanup), but it didn’t include napkins. My mom and I realized this when we were going over the invoice a few days before and went to the grocery store. She was all ready for me to agonize over it, and when I picked up and tossed the biggest package of napkins on the shelf into the cart, she thought it was hilarious. We didn’t have that many people. I think we finally ran out of those paper napkins 2 years ago, when we used them as wadding between plates when we moved from Colorado to New Mexico.

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        2. Richard Hershberger*

          My intended asked my opinion on centerpieces. I had not consciously noticed them, but now that you mention it I was vaguely aware of objects taking up valuable table space while blocking conversation across the table. So my opinion was to not have them. The was, and remains, my honest opinion, but she took this as a sign not to ask me about this kind of stuff. That was OK too, as while this was an honest opinion, she cared far more about it than I did.

          Music for the actual service was another matter. It was a Catholic wedding, and I have much stronger thoughts on liturgical music. So I was in charge of that. She was shocked to discover it did not include 19th century theatrical music. The priest and the music director loved me.

          Reply ↓
          1. Helewise*

            My husband and I have figured out that it’s okay to not always have both of us weigh in on every decision. If you ask me if I have an opinion about what kind of dishwasher we have (or him what color to paint the bedroom), then I’ll come up with an opinion and might even come up with a strong opinion – but if the dishwasher fairy magically drops off something that works, I’m just as happy and probably happier.

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      3. H3llifIknow*

        The LW mentioned the colleague as female and that “SHE” expected her coworkers to attend and was potentially using this as a friendship test. The LW did NOT say, “THEY” or “she and her fiance” … so yes, I used Princess in THIS INSTANCE. Not EVERYTHING must be called out in every.single.instance. I would find it exhausting to spend my time combing thru every comment looking for instances to pull out my virtue signalling horn.

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    4. E*

      I had a ‘destination wedding’ 20 years that was about a 5 hour drive instead of a 2 hour drive (if it had been were I lived) for a majority of family guests. It was purposely done so I could keep that guest list small and avoid inviting friends of parents & grandparents I hadn’t seen since I was 5. That said, I don’t understand having the wedding at the honeymoon location. Don’t new couples want their privacy from all the relatives?

      Reply ↓
      1. PintO'Luna*

        My sister had a destination wedding in a honeymoon location partly because mostly everyone had to travel anyway (half of them internationally) and partly because it was cheaper and easier for guests to do an all inclusive than people finding hotels in the expensive city the couple lived in and it was easier for the couple to plan.

        Reply ↓
      2. Great Frogs of Literature*

        I think it can be a deliberate choice to spend more of the money on the travel and less on the wedding (especially if there are people you would otherwise be expected to invite who you may wish to exclude), but you need to accept that it’s an imposition on the guests and some won’t be able to come, and/or you may need to help cover travel and lodging expenses.

        Reply ↓
    5. ecnaseener*

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having a destination wedding, or with inviting people to it who aren’t super close to you, as long as you make sure they don’t feel pressured to attend. Some people will be happy to have an occasion to travel somewhere cool! It’s not selfish to issue a truly optional invitation.

      Reply ↓
      1. ferrina*

        I agree with this.

        There’s nothing wrong with having a destination wedding. But there’s also nothing wrong with declining to attend a destination wedding.

        Reply ↓
      2. A Simple Narwhal*

        Yes I think the biggest thing to keep in mind when planning a wedding is that you are allowed to set whatever conditions you want, but you also have to be willing to accept that it might mean that some people won’t be able to come.

        Want to get married on a private island in the middle of the Pacific? Want it to be child-free? Want everyone to be wearing bespoke neon green evening wear? Go for it! But a lot of people probably won’t be able to come, and that’s the trade-off you have to be ok with.

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      3. Fluffy Orange Menace*

        True, but the LW said “at this point she fully expects everyone on the team to attend,” and that it seemed to be a friendship test” of sorts. With that in mind, the colleague is making it hard to FEEL like it’s optional.

        Reply ↓
        1. ecnaseener*

          Oh yeah obviously the employee in this letter is way over the line. I was just responding to H3llifIknow’s comment, which was about destination weddings in general being selfish / incomprehensible / narcissistic.

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    6. CB212*

      I don’t get destination weddings either, but since this is in an expensive city in the same country, the couple could just be… from there? Like, getting married where your infirm mother lives as well as your siblings and their families, that makes a lot of sense. Or, getting married in your childhood church is important to some people. There could be reasons aside from just thinking that everyone you know should fly to an island resort to pay tribute to your love. (But it’s still 100% bananas to think that your entire company wants to get hotel rooms in San Francisco for the weekend to witness your nuptials!!!)

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        1. doreen*

          I disagree – but I suspect this is very location dependent. Unless someone has a very distinct and identifiable accent, I probably won’t know where they grew up and even if I do, I won’t know where their parents live. And then there’s another person involved – and I definitely won’t know that my co-worker is getting married in New Orleans because her fiance grew up there or his disabled parents retired there.

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    7. Boss Scaggs*

      There’s nothing wrong with a destination wedding (why would it be greed or narcissm – it’s just a cool place to get married) but the couple can’t expect everyone to attend – that’s just part of it. But your comment seems way overboard

      Reply ↓
      1. Bast*

        I think the narcissism bit comes in when the bride/groom EXPECTS attendance, as seems to be the case in this letter. A regular wedding may be hard enough to attend, but a destination wedding where hundreds, if not thousands of dollars are going to need to come out of my pocket? That’s something else. If you have that type of wedding, you need to expect that it is not something that many can afford, and you will get a lot of, “Thanks for thinking of me, but I can’t make it.” Expecting that everyone will show up even without the destination wedding part is fairly entitled, but it’s something else when you add in the money/time burden of a destination wedding.

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    8. Anon Attorney*

      I think this is pretty judgmental and perhaps unintentionally misogynistic (talking about a day to be a “princess” like the groom doesn’t have any say). A specific destination may hold special meaning to someone or it’s a place their family happens to enjoy. As long as they don’t expect everyone to be able to come, then there’s nothing wrong with a couple doing what makes them happy.

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      1. H3llifIknow*

        However, the LW referred to the employee as “SHE” and said SHE DOES expect them to attend etc.. he did not say “THEY” are using this as a friendship test, etc… “SHE” is. SHE has the expectations. If it were both, the LW could have said “the happy couple expect” but… chose not to. So I feel pretty okay with my choice of words. It is neither intentional NOR unintentional misogyny. It’s just words.

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    9. LadyVet*

      My best friend’s wedding in early spring on the shore of Lake Erie was a destination wedding for me, as the venue was at least 90 minutes from any airport I could fly directly to from NYC. It would have been much easier for me to get to almost anywhere in the Caribbean, and I wouldn’t have had to pack for two seasons.

      I will probably get married in NYC, where I live, which will be a destination wedding for my family.

      But for people who do plan destination weddings at resorts, it’s often much more affordable and simpler, since the resort usually has someone to handle all the coordinating.

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    10. The Nanny*

      My partner and I are planning a destination wedding specifically for the perk of as few people coming as possible. People are hurt if you don’t invite them, but if you give them a graceful way out (I don’t want to/can’t fly to Europe) then everyone is placated. Our families are both very Much though, so it’s pretty situation specific. We would likely pay or help pay for anyone required to be there, like the wedding party.

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      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Bingo. We wanted a very small wedding with very few people attending, and definitely didn’t want crowds of family that neither of us has seen in a dozen years or more, so we talked to the people we DID definitely want there and decided to do a group weekend in Vegas, interrupted with a 15 minute wedding ceremony after which we took everyone out for dinner. About 2/3 of the invitees made it, I think 12 people all told including us, and that was quite sufficient.

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    12. Future*

      At my last job we were quite close and a bunch of us travelled to the wedding of a former colleague (it wasn’t a destination wedding per se – she was getting married in her home country, and since we’re in Europe it wasn’t a huge trek) and it was a blast.

      At the same job, just before I joined the company, another colleague had his wedding on another continent (again, not a destination wedding – it was his wife’s home country) and a few of the colleagues went. Apparently it was pretty amazing too. I would have gone if I’d known them at the time!

      I realise my experience is probably a bit unique, but if you are lucky enough to work with folks who you really gel with they can be a blast to attend destination weddings with.

      Of course this is quite different from the situation in the letter.

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    13. Rainy*

      Most weddings are “destination weddings” these days, if your definition of “destination wedding” is “I have to travel to get there”.

      When Mr Rainy and I got married, for most of the people attending it probably seemed like a destination wedding, but we had it in the town we were living in at the time. Ours was the fifth of a series of friends and family weddings over the course of about 18 months. Those 5 weddings were in 4 different states with, in total, attendees from probably 20+ different states and 5 countries. What even is a non-destination wedding these days?

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    14. Happy*

      We had a destination wedding because vacations are awesome.

      No one was obligated to attend. You can say we were self-centered, but it was our wedding – it was going to be centered around us whether we wanted it to be or not. (And my preference is closer to “not”…that was one of the benefits of a destination wedding – like 30 minutes were centered around us rather than the whole weekend. The rest of the time people could do whatever they wanted.)

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    15. Dittany*

      My cousin used one to avoid family drama. She and her now-husband both come from large families, and inviting everyone would have ballooned the guest list to 600+ people… buuuuuuut excluding ANYONE would have caused World War 3. Her solution? Two ceremonies: A small friends-and-family-only ceremony in America, and a destination wedding in an expensive location that the entire horde was invited to. The righteous warriors of invite-Aunt-Margaret’s-best-friend’s-hairdresser-or-perish knew what she was doing, of course, but it cut down on a lot of arguments.

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  5. metadata minion*

    1) Honestly, if this is a huge morale hit for her, she’s probably not a good fit for this office. She’s also not a good fit for any healthy work environment, but she needs to either learn some work/life separation or find a job where everyone else has the same we’re-a-family idea.

    Reply ↓
  6. jane's nemesis*

    The timing of the original column being March 11, 2020…. I wonder if this wedding across the country actually happened in 2021!

    Reply ↓
    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Ooh yikes yea I wonder what happened!

      I’ve been perusing old updates and I’ve seen several from the end of 2019/beginning of 2020 that essentially say “things are looking good for 2020!” that make me very nervous/curious how things actually shook out.

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      1. Martin Blackwood*

        The “boss tapes peoples mouth shut” letter update had a line like “my boss has agreed that i can start looking for a new job in april [2020]” and ive been thinking about that poor new grad that doesnt understand norms for like…three years.

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        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          Oof I hope it worked out for them.

          I saw one yesterday that had the line “… the raise freeze has been lifted for 2020, so I’m on track for a raise again!” and I’m just like yeesh, not feeling confident that that raise ever materialized for the LW.

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        2. Pay no attention...*

          Whenever I see letters with something so odd like that, I admit that I start to fan-fic scenarios that try to make it make sense. The letter writer MUST have left out some very important but identifying detail that would explain why they don’t feel like they are allowed to quit for three years… they’re in the military and they’re locked in to their enlistment for 3 years … they’re actually working in a prison laundry and they won’t be released until April 2020 … they are on a crab boat and the captain refuses to go back to port …?…

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          1. Arrietty*

            There was a cruise ship that’s finally set off after months being stuck with crew and passengers of board, but not three years! Or maybe the astronauts stuck on the space station.

            Reply ↓
    2. Blue Mina*

      I was wondering when the original question was from, as I had wondered if it was proximate enough to the pandemic to have been derailed by it. Thanks for sharing the original date! I’d definitely be curious to hear if it went forward or not.

      Reply ↓
  7. Alex*

    “Do I suck it up and pay to fly across the country and get a room in one of the country’s most expensive cities to attend a wedding I don’t really want to go to?”

    The answer to this question is almost always “no.” Possible exceptions are if it is your child’s wedding, maybe your sibling’s or parent’s. Otherwise, feel free to RSVP no without guilt.

    Reply ↓
    1. Richard Hershberger*

      I interpret an invitation to a destination wedding to mean that the happy couple feels obliged to invite me but are just as happy if I decline.

      Reply ↓
      1. Observer*

        That’s a normal interpretation. But this person is *insisting* that everyone “has” to come. Which is nonsense, of course. But I see why the LW is thinking in those terms.

        Reply ↓
    2. ferrina*

      This. This couple is making a huge ask on their guests’ time and finances. This is not obligatory.

      And side note- I did decline a sibling’s wedding that was across the country and at 2 months notice. We weren’t particularly close and I’d attended this sibling’s other weddings, but had to beg and subsidize their attendance to my wedding. When someone tried to guilt trip me about faaaaaaamily, I just told them I’d be at the sibling’s next wedding.

      Reply ↓
    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Meh. My siblings and I have never flown cross-country to attend each other’s weddings, and it’s been fine. Admittedly we weren’t all that close to begin with, but not attending each others’ weddings was neither the originating issue, nor really even a direct consequence. It just is what it is.

      Reply ↓
    4. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      You do not suck it up and fly cross country. But you sit Ms. Frienship Test down and explain work norms to her. that the company is in fact not her family. That if someone leaves or she leaves, they are unlikely to remain in touch.

      I think a blunt but kind talk to her might go a long way towards tempering her expectations not just around the wedding but her whole approach to the office.

      Reply ↓
  8. Jennifer Strange*

    I didn’t even invite my co-workers to my wedding. Admittedly it was in another state (my home state), so I may have invited my immediate team members had it been local.

    Reply ↓
    1. Paint N Drip*

      My wedding was approximately 45 minutes away from our office – I invited zero coworkers after working there for 6 years, and I regret nothing! I’ve now worked at another office for another handful of years, and all of those friendships have faded away – glad no one alarming can be found in the photos :)

      Reply ↓
  9. StressedButOkay*

    I only invited my immediate department to my wedding and not our CEO to my wedding. I can’t imagine inviting the whole staff even to a local wedding!

    I think you have logistics of running the business to bolster your no if you’re worried about her feelings. If everyone went, how would the company continue to operate on those days? What would the cost be to close it down but continue to pay everyone?

    But, overall, her thinking is completely out of touch with the rest of everyone in regards to the internal relationships and that’s a huge issue.

    Reply ↓
  10. The Original K.*

    Years ago I found myself hoping not to be invited to my coworker’s local wedding because while we were fine colleagues, we weren’t close enough to be attending weddings. She apparently agreed and didn’t invite the team. Weddings for colleagues can just turn into work events, particularly if you aren’t given a plus one. I 100% wouldn’t be getting on a flight for a colleague’s wedding.

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    1. cleo*

      “Weddings for colleagues can just turn into work events, particularly if you aren’t given a plus one.”

      And sometimes the plus ones make it worse. My spouse and I went to the local wedding of one of his coworker’s. We were seated with his other coworkers. The wife of his boss got drunk and complained about everyone who’d ever crossed boss at work (he’d been there a long time, in multiple roles – it was a loooong list). It was ~uncomfortable~

      Reply ↓
  11. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

    I’ve been to destination weddings, but they were either for my best friend who paid for our accommodations (everyone else who was coming already lived out of state so if she’d had it in our home town they still would’ve had to fly somewhere), or it was a place I wanted to go (that one was in the groom’s home country, so it was only a destination for half of the attendees, his country was more centrally located than the bride’s, AND they planned outings for all of us who weren’t local with our input so we got to actually do fun vacation stuff while we were there).

    If you do a destination wedding, you’re accepting that your guest list is going to be smaller. Some people actually do that on purpose so people can self-select out. The LW’s employee is being ridiculous.

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  12. pope suburban*

    Boundary issues aside, she’s effectively asking for the entire business to shut down for at least a couple of days. That’s a big ask. Even if the business doesn’t provide a lifesaving or critical service, they have clients, and expecting those clients not to be able to get in touch with the business for a while is just not reasonable. Like…we’re not just talking about the impact on the other nine employees, we’re talking about the impact on all the clients and suppliers for the business. Someone who won’t or can’t see that is someone who has a poor sense of priorities, and this probably shows up/will show up in other areas too.

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    1. dulcinea47*

      it’s entirely possible, even likely, that a business with ten employees is closed on weekends, and that the wedding will be on a saturday. We have evidence of a lot of problems here, this is not one of them.

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      1. Ashley*

        You need a day to fly in and out so you are talking at least being closed Friday, but if I had to guess it was a multi-day event.

        Reply ↓
      2. CB212*

        And I’m assuming this is USA because I don’t know if other countries have the concept of ‘destination weddings’ but OP just says “another part of the country”. There are plenty of “other parts of the country” that are a nonstop two hour flight – like it could be Charleston and they work in Chicago. There’s no reason to think the problem is WORSE than giving up your weekend to spend $$$$$ on a hotel and meals for a coworker’s event – that’s plenty of nope right there.

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        1. Le Sigh*

          I guess it depends on what “another part of the country” means here — the LW later stated “across the country.” You’re right that if they mean somewhere like Chicago, it’s easier. But if they actually mean coast-to-coast and/or a city without a major airport, it would be rough to do that in a 48 hr period.

          Reply ↓
          1. HB*

            Yeah, a LOT depends on departure/arrival cities. I live in central NC so I searched for flights for the weekend of February 7th 2024.

            From RDU my latest available flight is 6:40 PM. I have TSA precheck so I could probably get away with arriving at the airport by 5:30… but the airport is 30 minutes from my office *without* traffic and that leaves no time to park. Therefore I have to leave work early – by at least an hour or more.

            Coming back, my shortest flight duration is still 5 hours (direct)… with a 3 hour time difference. I could technically make it back to work on Monday, but more than likely I would take the day off.

            If I actually live in Greensboro and fly out of PTI my latest flight is 5:24 PM. Smaller airport so probably less issues with parking/security, but I’d still need to be there by 4:30 so I’m still leaving work early. On Sunday my shortest flight duration option is 6hours and 49 minutes, again with a 3 hour time difference.

            But lets pretend I actually still live and work in my old hometown… New Bern, NC. These are my flight options for Friday:

            Depart 6:02 PM Friday, arrive 10:49 AM Saturday. With the time difference that is a 19 hour and 47 minute flight duration.

            Depart 10:53 AM and arrive 6:44 PM (all on Friday)
            Depart 6:17 AM and arrive 12:41 PM (all on Friday)

            That 6:17 AM Departure / 12:41 PM arrival is also available on Saturday so the ONLY way I would be able to do this all in one weekend is to either have the worst flying experience in the world or arrive around 1 pM on Saturday and hope the wedding is in the evening. On Sunday my only option is to leave at 7:11 AM, arriving back in New Bern at 5:37 PM.

            So yes, technically possible but if this wedding does require a cross-country flight, it’s more likely than not that anyone who attends will have to take some time off work.

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    2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      Came looking for this comment. Because if she doesn’t think that the company will close down for her wedding, (SPECULATING: after all, it’s Saturday afternoon, she will be be busy with the rehearsal on Friday night and leaving for honeymoon Sunday) the people will drive/fly in Saturday and leave Sunday. What’s the big deal? It’s the weekend.
      /s
      I believe with my whole perverted head that this is the theory of the couple. I wonder if he invited work people, too.

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  13. Cat Tree*

    I think as the owner of the company, OP needs to specifically not go, as an example to the rest of the team that they are also allowed to decline. There’s too much concern about one employee’s morale and not enough for everyone else.

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    1. Mutually supportive*

      Excellent point. And also that if the owner is the only one who does go, then it might feel like they have a special relationship with the bride that feels odd to everyone else.

      Reply ↓
  14. TracyXP*

    #2 – I feel so bad for poor Amy. She’s overworked and understaffed and probably getting pressure from others to put their things first. Depending on how long this has been going on, she’s going to suffer some major burnout. Honestly, I think OP needs to rope in others above Amy now and see what needs to be her priorities. Or what can be taken off of Amy’s workload and distributed to others.

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    1. ScruffyInternHerder*

      This was my take as well. I’ve been in Amy’s shoes, and the results of that could be summed up as “well, bossman, YOU determine which new customer you’d like to p!$$ off because there are not enough hours in the day to do as I’ve been asked”.

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    2. TeaCoziesRUs*

      +1. My first thoughts were 1. Where is her manager in all this, and why aren’t they at least giving her temps or hitting more full time folks to help alleviate this?? and 2. The company is showing that it really isn’t all that important to them if they’re not actively managing the process to SEE how overworked she is.

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    3. Strive to Excel*

      I also feel bad for poor Amy.

      I don’t love the phrasing of “rope in others above Amy’s paygrade” because that to me implies calling Amy out in front of her managers. Amy might be the one responsible for the information, but even OP says the delay isn’t her fault. What should be happening is Amy going to the managers herself and saying “I can do X or Y but not both” and then when OP asks about this vendor data, use that as ammunition to tell management “you are overworking me and I can’t keep all our clients happy.

      Also, it seems like Alison interpreted this one as “Amy has multiple things to do, including these vendor requests”, and maybe there was more information in the OG letter, but I’m wondering how reasonable the vendor requests are. Has anyone gone back to the vendor and told them “this thing you want is going to take us a tremendous amount of work to do?”

      I was an external auditor, not a vendor, but sometimes I’d end up on calls with clients where they told me “You asked for X – that’s going to be really hard for us to get. Do you really need X?” Sometimes the answer was yes, I really need X specifically, but sometimes the answer was “I need something that shows Y. X is the most common report I see, so that’s what I requested, but if you have something else that shows Y that’s easier to get we can use that”.

      I fully believe OP when they say that this data is critical, and it’s more than probable they’ve already taken the step of checking with the vendor that they do need this data in this way. But in general it’s worthwhile checking in with vendors who say they need specific info to make sure you understand what it is they need. That way you can also avoid the problem of spending hours of time pulling data that isn’t actually all that helpful.

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      1. Observer*

        I don’t love the phrasing of “rope in others above Amy’s paygrade” because that to me implies calling Amy out in front of her managers.

        No. It’s putting the burden where it belongs – on the people who can make the necessary changes. Maybe Amy has already spoken to her management chain or maybe not. And maybe she hasn’t for all sorts of reasons. None of that really matters.

        At this point, if Amy says that she can’t put a higher priority on the work, the LW demand or even ask that Amy take it up with her management. Not can the LW just sit there are throw up their hands. Their only real option is to kick it upstairs.

        It’s not a matter of “tattling” or “calling out” anyone. It’s a matter of bringing a problem to someone who can actually solve that problem.

        Has anyone gone back to the vendor and told them “this thing you want is going to take us a tremendous amount of work to do?”

        That’s a good question. And it’s also a good reason for the LW to bring this up the chain. Because in all probability, that’s a question that needs to be decided higher up as well.

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    4. MCMonkeybean*

      Yes–if the transition is that important than thy company needs to make sure there is enough staff to facilitate it. If they can’t be bothered to make sure the team is equipped to handle it, that’s not on Amy.

      Reply ↓
    5. Hannah Lee*

      @TracyXP, you are spot on!

      That whole scenario was filled with evidence of chronic bad management.

      – The understaffed department with an overworked employee who already has way too much on her plate before this big system project is on the scene

      – Whoever is managing Amy and her department not addressing staffing issues or work assignments or prioritization, allowing things to get backed up, again, before this big system project is on the scene

      – Unrealistic planning RE the big project, system implementation which didn’t take into account inputs to the process, when they could be realistically available, what the cascading impacts would be if things were delayed and workarounds, Plan B’s, escalation to block and tackle looming bottlenecks, roadblocks BEFORE deadlines are looming

      – Pinning all this on Amy, expecting her to solve everything so the project managers, company executives can merrily meet all those unrealistic deadlines.

      Amy is only human, and is only one person in this organization. If there is too much on her plate*, there has been chronically too much on her plate, has been busily trying to clear her plate the best she can to the point of impending burnout and a mission critical company wide project depends entirely on her doing anything over an above her usual duties, whoever is above Amy in the org chart and whoever is managing this big project has really failed in multiple ways.

      My bias – I’ve been an Amy, expected to just do it all, and then pressured when it just can’t be done, even though I’d been alerting everyone involved that a) there was WAY too much for the manpower assigned to do even without the Big Project and b) the milestone deadlines in the project plan were unrealistic and something needed to change to prevent meltdown (major increase in resources, reduction in scope and/or push back of project schedule) “Just get it done!” especially with a side of “you’re failing us” is not helpful, and sometimes will lead to that one key employee who is for some reason “the only one who can do this critical thing” saying “nah, I’m out” and resigning.

      *alternatively, has been focused on non-priorities or talking unreasonably long to complete assignments … because why hasn’t her manager worked with her to address that before those Big Project Milestone Deadlines are about to be missed.

      Reply ↓
  15. Kat*

    What about the fact that it’s probably not even feasible for everyone to attend? Does she expect that the entire company is going to shut down for the duration of the trip? Assuming everyone DID want to go, I assume some people will not be approved to take time off since you will need some staff to stay behind.

    From just that perspective alone this woman needs a reality check.

    I would NOT attend a staff’s wedding. I’d be concerned my attendance (and giving a gift) would set up the expectation for other staff that I will attend their functions, OR that they’ll feel obligated to invite me bc how will it look that someone else invited the boss but they don’t?

    Strongly recommend doing some small work celebration but if you’re going to give a gift, pay for it from the company. Don’t make the staff contribute bc that creates a similar problem of creating an expectation everyone will have to start contributing to gifts they don’t want to pay for, or can’t afford.

    When I was getting married I was surprised by a mini lunch in a boardroom and the boss gave me a gift on behalf of the company/team that none of the staff had to contribute for. Everyone signed the card tho. It was a very nice guesture.

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  16. Glad I'm Not in the Rat-Race Any More.*

    Wow, this person expects the writer to pretty much shut down their company for half a week or more (Hey, 10-person company, even if only half her co-workers attend they’ll be hurting) AND everyone in the company to fork over for flights and hotel to one of the most expensive places to stay in the country? Because she wants the work culture to be something she’s been told repeatedly it is NOT, and thinks this is a way to encourage it? The mind boggles.

    I agree w AAM: A maybe-NOT-so-gentle sit-down needs to be held immediately, where Bridezilla-the-employee is handed an introduction to the real world. Better she gets the “bad news” well before the invitations go out and she starts harping on her coworkers over why they haven’t returned them or why they responded in the negative. And maybe if her bubble is burst now, she just won’t send invites to her co-workers except maybe to a work-bestie. I fear this woman is in for a world of disappointment when most of the RSVPs come rolling in negative (or just not rolling in as soon as she’d hoped.)

    Reply ↓
      1. HonorBox*

        I figured Friday would be a travel day, too. Maybe part of one additional workday depending on where they’re flying from/to. Either way, though, I think that it does expect a lot of a business to shut down so everyone can attend a wedding.

        Reply ↓
        1. ecnaseener*

          Yeah, Friday being a travel day = a long weekend.

          The overall point stands, the business might not be able to close for even one weekday, I’m just confused at where “half a week” comes from.

          Reply ↓
  18. I should really pick a name*

    #1 The LW doesn’t want to go to the wedding AND wants to discourage the “we’re family” vibes. I feel like these two things go together very nicely…

    #3 I suppose they’re asking for some kind of written reference? Otherwise I’m not sure why the LW would need time to turn it around. While it’s obviously too late for this letter, offering to do it over the phone seems like the logical option.

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  19. Bad Wolf*

    As the boss, you can easily shut this down by saying you can’t have your entire staff take leave all at the same time. That will effectively shut down the business for the duration.

    Reply ↓
  20. Fiachra*

    When LW wrote that they “find ways to gently reinforce that we all need appropriate boundaries at work”, I had to wonder if it’s another case of someone softening the blow so much that the message doesn’t get through.

    Reply ↓
    1. Laury M*

      Exactly this.
      Owner needs to be very clear with the bride employee that no one should feel pressured to attend a wedding they may not be able to afford or want to use their vacation days for.
      And owner has to also be very very clear to the others though the owner themselves may choose to go to the wedding that should not be interpreted as pressure for anyone else to feel they must attend.
      I guarantee you already some are seeing this event as mandatory and are worrying about the cost and loss of vacation days.

      Owner seems more worried about the bride employee’s morale. And not enough about the others.

      Also they don’t seem to be worried about the ted flag of the bride insisting that because they work together they’re like her “family” thus then obligated.

      Bride sounds like a “ missing stair” in the making.
      Owner needs to shut this down now. If bride decides it’s not a good fit anymore than that’s probably for the better.

      Reply ↓
  21. Andrew*

    What immediately leapt to mind was that the letter writer is living in a sitcom version of life – where her wedding is a ‘sweeps’ episode, so, naturally, the whole ‘cast’ is attending. But, of course, real life is nothing like that. I would say, everyone is welcome but not expected of course and those that feel close to her will make the time/get coverage and those that don’t and/or can’t get coverage won’t.

    I know full well the desire to invite ‘everyone you’ve ever met in your entire life’, but after working as a wedding planner a few years ago, I discovered the JOY of small (less than 20, and in some cases, less than 10) weddings.

    Reply ↓
    2. Paint N Drip*

      I get the vibe that this employee is rather young and doesn’t yet grasp the concept that you’re spending your day with these people but it doesn’t mean you’re best friends or a family. I’m thinking like the transition from high school and college where you’re surrounded by peers who can all be friends (and those who don’t want to be your friend can be unfriendly/cruel), to the reality of work life where everyone is there for purpose but are reasonably friendly with each other. I hope she figures it out or finds the right office for her, because she’s at risk of being THAT coworker

      Reply ↓
  22. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

    OP1 (destination wedding) – No, as the head of the company, you shut it down and don’t let her pressure people into attending (by talking as if ‘of course’ you are all going).

    OP2 (overworked colleague is missing deadlines) – You raise this to “the project” (could be a project manager, your own manager, a committee of some kind – whoever is ‘running’ the project) and of course including the reason why the requests are overdue (workload rather than incorrect prioritisation etc). The project manager or person functioning as PM needs to note this as a risk or a constraint, this is bread and butter for PMs.

    Reply ↓
  23. Anne Shirley Blythe*

    Just here to comment that “destination wedding” automatically elicits an eye roll from me. Not sorry.

    Reply ↓
  24. Fluffy Fish*

    Missing stair.

    You are allowing an employee to hold others hostage to her idea of friendship. And you’re all tippy toeing over the missing stair because wanting to be friends is “nice”.

    You really have an obligation to shut her all the way down. It will not go well. She will be very hurt. She may leave. But just because its a “nice” sentiment doesn’t make it any less toxic to the workplace.

    Reply ↓
  25. TravelCosts*

    Um, isn’t part of having a destination wedding paying the travel expenses of attendees? Hell, my Bat Mitzvah was in Pennsylvania and we had to pay the hotel costs for all of the attendees from NYC (where I was born and nearly all of my family lives). Folks drove so we didn’t pay for transportation, but we booked out two local strip motels for the whole weekend on our dime. It wasn’t even a question if we expected anyone to show up. We provided all meals from Friday night through Sunday brunch too.

    Is that not just how it works?

    Reply ↓
    1. PizzaDog*

      in my experience, the expectation is usually that the travel to the wedding is in lieu of a gift / cash envelope.

      Reply ↓
    2. Boss Scaggs*

      In my experience, if you go to a destination wedding you are paying your own way. Unlike this letter though, in most cases nobody would expect you to attend.

      Reply ↓
    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I’ve never been invited to a destination wedding like that and I wouldn’t expect it unless the person paying for the wedding was super rich and explicitly stated they’d be paying for everything. I’d expect to pay for my own flights, accommodation, and meals/activities that aren’t included as part of the official festivities.

      That said, a lot of people (though not the person in this letter) have destination weddings explicitly because they know a lot of people won’t want to attend and it helps narrow down the guest list without them actually having to say “Actually, let’s not invite this person.” It can backfire, though — I know someone who had a destination wedding at a major theme park in the US that has a lot of travel deals for Canadians, so way more people RSVPed yes than they expected and they had to change the venue within the theme park in order to accommodate all the extra guests.

      Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Yeah, if it was in a city I wanted to see and I wasn’t docked PTO for it, I’d definitely consider it.

      Reply ↓
  27. HonorBox*

    I’m about to attend a “destination” wedding. Destination in that the majority of people attending are not from the destination city, not like a wedding in Bali. But still… attending a wedding that requires transport by airplane takes a lot of planning, time off from work, and money. Unless someone has a specific role in the wedding that they’ve been invited to do, no one is required to attend anyone’s wedding regardless of where that wedding is being held.

    I hope that LW1 had a conversation with this employee in which they outlined that pressuring people to attend will not be tolerated. Hard stop. If people want to go, great. But if people don’t want to or aren’t able to, they don’t need to feel guilty for not going. And they shouldn’t feel like they need to come up with some elaborate excuse that will meet her approval. I also think it is important to tell her that expecting everyone to attend also expects that the office will be shut down for at least a day, and that’s not going to happen.

    Then don’t attend if you don’t want to or can’t. If others do want to go, you can step in to fill in on the day they’re traveling. But you can also be an example to others that it is OK to not attend, and bride’s wedding will still be OK.

    And then I’d hand her a gift or a card/check before she leaves and wish her all the best on her big day.

    Reply ↓
  28. Head Sheep Counter*

    See the thing with destination weddings is that the couple often get kickbacks (their room for free) if X number of guests come. That… just seems… opportunistic. And given the work aspect of this…gross.

    Reply ↓
  29. BW*

    Forget the destination part. Just don’t invite co-workers to weddings. The minute you change jobs, those people are out of your life.

    Reply ↓

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