open thread – September 20, 2024

by Alison Green on September 20, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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{ 876 comments }

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  1. A Poster Has No Name*

    Low-stakes Q: Shorts in the office*, yay or nay?

    *Office = the usual sort of corporate environment–climate controlled, not open to the public, not client-facing, and not the type of place that requires a strict or formal dress code.

    1. Tio*

      If you’re mid casual, no. (like jeans level)

      If you’re super casual (I’ve worked at a place where I wore sweatpants to work) yes.

    2. Mouse*

      Very much culture dependent. In my (law) office, formal, long shorts paired with a blouse and blazer works for women. None of the men wear shorts except when we relaxed the dress code in an exceptional heatwave and we had no AC. There’s no formal rule against men wearing formal shorts (if they had them), they just don’t generally. I think there is an element of bare legs on women being corporately more acceptable than bare legs on men.

    3. Blue Pen*

      I’ve seen a lot of super dressy shorts (like suit pants, but cut as shorts) coming out, and while I think that might eventually catch on, I don’t think we’re there yet.

      But I don’t know, if it’s a more casual environment, maybe? That said, I wear dark jeans to work, and I wouldn’t push it to shorts.

      1. Queen Anon*

        That tried that in the mid 90s but it didnt take the. A paralegal wore a business cut short suit to work – one time. It was the talk of the firm all day!

        I wonder if they’ll catch on this time. I wouldn’t wear them but other people might and they don’t show any more skin than a skirt.

    4. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      Nay.

      But I can’t exactly say why. In such environments where I’ve worked, it’s just Not Done. It does seem odd when skirts are acceptable though.

        1. Fluff*

          If nude hairless legs are ok there, then nude hairy legs should be fine. Note the SHOULD.

          Depends on how stereotype and the culture is and how much energy you have.

          As a German working here in the USA, I would not do it. A whisper of a hint of a single teeny tiny hair on me feeds into the “stinky European” jokes at work. sigh. Not something I want to deal with.

        2. Hairy Leg Lady*

          I don’t shave my legs and often wear skirts. My shaving habits are my business. I am neatly dressed and have good hygiene.

          I do work in a fairly casual workplace though. But I think I’d act the same even if I didn’t because honestly we should be past that kind of standard.

            1. JSPA*

              Yeah, me too, but it shouldn’t take “getting away with it” because of luck of the genetic draw, to make it OK…

              1. Charlotte Lucas*

                I don’t care what people do with their body hair as long as it’s clean and doesn’t find a way into my food.

              2. ThatOtherClare*

                If you can “get away with it”, please go for it! The more often you “sneak through” and normalise it, the sooner it will become accepted for the rest of us.

    5. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I’ve worn shorts to work, but I work in a super casual office environment (jeans are fine every day, though athleisure wouldn’t be). For me it’s more about the fabric and length than other considerations, e.g. usually something made of twill (vs jersey, like gym shorts) and long enough to pass the “Catholic school kilt length test” i.e. is the bottom hem past the tips of my fingers. It’s hard to find longer lengths, though, so I usually just stick to skirts and dresses in the summer.

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        I’ll add that my male colleagues also wear shorts in the summer, usually with the same caveats: non-gym shorts material that are on the longer side. Cargo shorts are fine. I’ve also had colleagues wear those “utilikilts” (i.e. a combo kilt / cargo short kinda thing?), but I won’t pretend that’s likely to be common in lots of work places!

    6. Alex*

      My office has no dress code whatsoever, and occasionally someone will wear shorts.

      I always notice, and not in a great way. Not saying that that’s fair, or that it matters, but it’s the truth.

    7. JHunz*

      Super casual office like my current job: yes.

      But I’ve worked in similar places where it wouldn’t have been a thing.

    8. sdog*

      Nay. Maybe in some work environments, it’d be ok, but I don’t know — to me, this has always been a barrier I wouldn’t have crossed. And even my husband, who has worked in much more casual environments than me, and who lives in khaki shorts at all other times, wouldn’t wear shorts to work.

    9. Runcible Wintergreen*

      One of my coworkers has a very twee/Jess from “New Girl” fashion style and she occasionally wears black, tailored, dressy shorts with opaque black tights and a blouse. Our office is “casual business” (ie, jeans and nice T-shirts are OK) and we are all sciency people who expressly do not care about how people dress. I personally would not wear shorts by themselves but if the legs are covered by tights I think it is workable.

      If you aren’t showing any more skin than the average business casual skirt, I think it’s feasible. I think the key is to make it more of a “fashion statement” than casual.

    10. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I wouldn’t, but I generally don’t wear shorts, full-stop.

      I’d like to say sure, but I think shorts can get a little dicey. I’m thinking of the preponderance of people I see out and about with shorts where their pocket linings are hanging out the bottoms of their leg openings, and who wants to get into the whole “knee length shorts are ok but apparently we have to tell grown-ass adults that if their shorts don’t actually cover their butt they are not appropriate to leave the house in, let alone go to work, and what about the in-betweens” back-and-forth.

      1. Just Another Cog*

        Yeah. We had casual Fridays at an old dysfunctional employer and one of my employees wore “daisy dukes” so short you could see her lady bits when she walked toward you. Apparently, she didn’t wear underwear with them, either. I sent her home to change (but not without some serious b*tching from her. She was one of those producers who upper management wouldn’t allow me to fire).

    11. PropJoe*

      Theory: I don’t personally see an issue with it, so long as they’re nice and designed that way, meaning the style of shorts with belt loops you see modeled with polo shirts at department stores. This necessarily excludes workout shorts or swim trunks or whatever.

      Reality: Every office environment I’ve been in, nobody has ever batted an eye about women wearing shorts that fit the above description. For men, however, I have only ever twice seen it happen.

      First was at a llama call center. Normal dress code for men was slacks and a long sleeve button down, with jeans & polos on Fridays. Exactly once, there was a mandatory Saturday overtime day, and for that day alone, men were authorized to wear shorts and a polo.

      Second was at a privately owned teapot factory. The man who owned 100% of the holding company that owned the factory would sometimes come to work in cargo shorts and a polo shirt, perhaps once or twice per month when it wasn’t too cold outside.

      Disclaimer: I’ve never worked in Phoenix or Las Vegas or anywhere else with a stupidly hot climate and a reputation for office shorts for everyone.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        I worked in a ridiculously hot place with humidity (Florida), the office has A/C that to me felt cold when I sat working at my desk for a while.

        It’s hot outside, but it’s cold in the offices. I don’t think shorts have started to overwhelm the existing cultural norms yet.

    12. Quinalla*

      Only if your place is super casual – like PJs & flipflops are ok, etc.

      Otherwise, shorts are ok only at company events that are outside of work and even then, only some company events – picnics, outings to sportsball (maybe, sometimes this is still dressy if taking clients), zoo, etc. yes, awards dinners, holiday parties, etc. – no

      And this sounds silly, but just ask someone. I always ask when I’m unclear on dress code and it is rarely awkward except for the fact that my field is male dominated and they don’t always know how to translate male dress code to women’s clothes :)

    13. Strive to Excel*

      Shorts are perceived as very casual, so I’d be wary of them. If you do wear them, make sure they’re nice short and not gym shorts. Especially for women, since our gym shorts are frequently of the extra short runner’s variety.

    15. Seashell*

      I wouldn’t wear them myself (both because of being casual and needing to shave my legs), but my husband recently did on a day when it was really hot and there were low odds of many people being in the office. He didn’t report any complaints or weirdness about it.

    16. ampersand*

      I lean towards no for absolutely no good reason, except it’s usually not done in a corporate environment. I also think this standard should change, because it’s silly. Someone else mentioned that if skirts are okay, why aren’t shorts? and I agree with that sentiment.

      I’m also remembering a job I had about 15 years ago where a woman I worked with wore nice dress shorts and a nice dress shirt–we were business casual–and one of the assistant directors shut that down really fast. No one ever attempted to wear shorts again after that! That left an impression, which I think is one more reason I lean towards no unless you’re sure it’s okay.

    17. Workerbee*

      Yea to shorts in the office.

      Why not be comfortable while working, if shorts equate comfort? It’s the heart and brains that I value in people, not how their legs are encased, you know?

    18. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

      It truly depends on the culture and also how hot it is. For context, I’m a man. My first in-person tech job stuck pretty clearly to business casual. People on my team got talked to for wearing T-shirts, so shorts would have been a no-go unless it was really really hot. At my last in-person tech job, shorts (and T-shirts) were acceptable/allowed, but I always felt weird wearing them, so I generally didn’t unless it was hot (over 90F/30C). My current job (also in tech) is remote, but we did our first offsite in the middle of summer in the South, so we all wore shorts because we would have died otherwise.

    19. anonymouse*

      In every office I’ve worked in, shorts would be completely fine. BUT, big caveat is that these are software companies where athleisure is totally acceptable.

    20. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Usually no but when they keep taking our HVAC offline in July for “refurbishment” and we are stuck in an 80+ degree office, the shorts come out.

    21. A Poster Has No Name*

      I’m glad to see people’s reactions are largely similar to mine. I don’t wear shorts in the office, and in my fairly casual office they were non-existent before the pandemic, but they’re becoming a little more common, and I’m not sure how I feel about it. I mostly see them on men, but I’ve seen them on at least one women, too (I was briefly taken a little aback by the sight of the hairy knees on the men, but I’m certain I wouldn’t notice them at all on a woman, any more than I noticed them on skirt-wearers).

      The comparison to skirts is one that has me a bit stumped, too–I don’t know why by I do react a little differently to shorts than skirts. Shorts are just one of those things my brain categorizes as ‘unprofessional’ (along with sweats and ripped t-shirts and things like that) though their length/material isn’t inappropriate at all.

      By ‘react’ I mean a mild ‘huh’ so I’m not trying to be the pants police or anything and would never say anything to anyone. I was just curious if shorts were A Thing now and I just missed it, or not.

    22. summer camp spouse*

      If you work in the office of a summer camp, yes :)

      Otherwise, no.

      (It’s a weird cultural norm! I think Alison has written about it before.)

    23. Mornington Crescent*

      I work in a very casual, “jeans every day” type office and even then, I feel weird wearing shorts to work. Even if they’re knee-length bermuda-cut shorts, I still feel weirdly underdressed in them, in a way that I wouldn’t in a skirt.

      Maybe because shorts are still kind of unusual in the workplace? If several people come in in shorts, we all go “eyy, shorts gang!”, which is funny but kind of makes it into a bigger Thing than it really is.

    25. A Teacher*

      Teacher in a district where we don’t have a dress code. I wear school wear with shorts all the time–or just because. We don’t have a dress code to follow.

    26. GenX, PhD, Enters the Chat*

      It depends? I work in a small law office, and on days that we don’t see clients, we are very casual. My boss comes in wearing her yoga clothes, Boy Lawyer wears shorts and a polo, etc. On court days and client meeting days, we level up a bit from business casual.

      1. 40 Years In the Hole*

        When I worked plainclothes/investigations, I sometimes wore a very nice linen “walking” short (Bermuda length) and matching short-sleeved jacket, with a shell underneath, knee high socks, Sahara boots. Very snappy and professional I thought tho’ I would never in court proceedings or if meeting the Base Commander. Being the only female on the crew none of the guys had a clue about appropriate female attire.
        I also worked with an older (civilian) gent in another military office setting and he regularly sported very snappy Bermuda shorts/full jacket, crisp shirt, knee highs and brogues – very pukka.
        Thinking back I rarely saw women in shorts as our work space tended towards more business casual to business formal, given the somewhat conservative nature of the Dept. Can’t speak for other fed depts, all of which are heavily unionized.

    27. Dasein9 (he/him)*

      Yes! I work at a place that never went back to in-person after the pandemic, but before we all went home, some staff came in wearing pyjama pants. Shorts, sandals, t-shirts, and flannels were all fine. We get so much more done when we’re not feeling pinched, warm, and uncomfortable all the time.

    28. MissMaple*

      I’m an engineer and I often joke with my fellow female engineers about what I’d have to show up in to have someone comment (for good or bad). That said, shorts on male coworkers usually get an approving thumbs up from someone during the day. I tend to stick with skirts since my shorts are shorter and it’s cold in here anyway.

    29. I Always Forget What Name I Used*

      I was just talking about this with my coworkers! I was saying since we live in a very hot climate, it would be nice if “business shorts” were a thing. Everyone else was totally against it! Pretty much everyone seemed to be self-conscious of their legs, especially my older coworkers.

    30. Person from the Resume*

      Only in extremely casual environments.

      There’s something about a person wearing even super dressy short that’s pushing the boundary.

      If your shorts are the same material as your long pants, I think the shorts will always appear more casual. Just for ill-defined reasons.

    31. JSPA*

      Depends where / climate, and the sort of shorts. Long shorts in an “office” cut with a crease should be OK in a lot of places (or linen-cotton bermuda chinos); broadly in much of the west, southwest, and florida. The faded red ones had a moment, not that long ago.

    32. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I lived in knee-length cargo shorts during the summers (engineering, DE)- but the men did too. So practical & comfy. Tshirt/tank, shorts and Nikes / hiking sandals.
      I’m not sure if I’d have worn shorts if only women had bare legs.

    33. Kyrielle*

      Very much depends. The office I was in two jobs ago, shorts on casual Friday (unless long and dressy and on a woman *maybe*) would not have flown. The office I was in last time I was in an office, we had a guy who wore cargo shorts regularly. (But it was a laid-back office *and* he was relatively senior and skilled. I’m not sure if someone else could have gotten away with it or not; no one else came in in cargo shorts to find out.)

    34. LyraB*

      so funny – my reaction is so different to most! IME longer shorts in a more formal material can definitely fly in a casual-leaning professional environment, on all genders (I (woman) work in a professional consulting office and my partner (man) works in a fairly conservative federal government department, and we both are considered pretty snappy dressers (as far as we know) despite our regular shorts wearing

    35. Alisaurus*

      I currently work for a tech company where you couldn’t get away with sweatpants or PJs but shorts are completely acceptable as long as they wouldn’t be obscenely short when you’re seated. In the summer, I (female) have worn anything from suit-style pants from Torrid to nice jean shorts to a flowy pair of shorts that could pass for a skirt at a glance. Yesterday, I wore striped denim shorts overalls into the office. Male coworkers have also worn shorts (usually jean shorts) with no one thinking twice.

      That said, it depends on your company for sure. My last job was fine with jeans but shorts were off limits. Job before that was okay with shorts on a Friday when a lot of people who worked weekends were off anyway.

    36. ProShorts*

      Yes for me, but I go out of my way to work for companies where the dress code is you have to get dressed.

    37. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

      In the ’90s my division of major corporation (in the desert southwest) declared that allowability of shorts (and skorts) was determined by the Center Manager. I was part of manufacturing Center where she said not allowed – no exceptions. Even for the manager coming to the office just to check email on the weekend (prior to smartphones and email from home) and it was 115 degrees outside.
      When I returned to this company location in the 2010s, shorts seemed to be allowed for office environments, but bare legs where not allowed on the factory floor in places where closed toed shoes were required.

    38. Thomas*

      It was nay in my old workplace; wore them once and got told not to wear them again. But that had quite a few employees with conservative religious beliefs. It’d probably be a yay in my current office, I’ve seen a few people wearing them and there’s a general attitude of not giving a fig.

  2. Harlowe*

    My company just put out a global e-mail with a bunch of “let’s end the year strong!” fluff, but buried 11 paragraphs deep is a new requirement of RTO 3 days per week. My department has been hiring fully remote since 2016, and we are scattered across three continents. Company headquarters is 400 miles away from me. There has been no communication at the lower levels, so team leads and managers have no idea if this means we are losing our jobs. Everyone is in complete meltdown.

    2. CindyLouWho*

      I feel for you, Harlowe.

      We were informed of full-time RTO starting November 1. Well, not really informed as much as there were rumors with management confirmation.

      Butts in seats are so important, amirite?

    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I’d say “Why is leadership so bad at communicating?” but this is probably by design, not an accident. I’m sorry they’re not being transparent!

      1. A Significant Tree*

        I’m not disagreeing with you but you gotta wonder, what is the result they were expecting burying the lede like that? Did they really not expect people to read all the fine print and react accordingly?

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          I do think they expect people to either not read the emails or not read to the end when they’re lengthy, but all it takes is for one person (and there’s always at least one person) who *will* read to the end and then let everyone else know. That part shouldn’t be surprising to anyone who has ever sent an email, and yet here we are.

        2. Tio*

          I mean, probably yes when they put it under *11 paragraphs*. Though those 11 paragraphs may have been by design.

    4. I Super Believe In You, Tad Cooper*

      I’m sorry, *11 paragraphs?*

      No advice, just solidarity. This is absolutely bonkers—especially for a company that’s been fully remote as long as yours.

    5. HonorBox*

      While maybe this comes across as snarky, I think I’d consider a direct reply with something like, “Return to what office? Teammates and I were hired fully remote and it has been that way for 8 years. We’ve never had an office so to what office are we returning? Are we to read more into this?”

      1. LizB*

        I think this is a reasonable way to push back. Or something like, “By return to office, you mean return to the work arrangement present before COVID began, right? Because we were hired fully remote in 2016 and it was never intended that we report to an office.”

        1. HonorBox*

          Or even “I’ve been working in my (home, remote) office every day since I was hired in 2016. That’s the only office I’ve ever had here.”

    6. Noodles*

      So many companies doing this. Amazon just mandated 5 days a week rto. Lots of people who were hired remote have to move (often to offices where no one else from there team is, so they go in just to be on zoom all day) or are getting fired, and everyone knows it’s just because the company wants people to leave. It’s all so short sighted.

      1. A reader among many*

        As a sibling to a former Amazon engineer, I feel for you. That company’s executives do not like humans.

    7. RagingADHD*

      That’s one thing my company did pretty well with their rollout of RTO this past month. They always made a clear distinction between roles / employees that were always designated Onsite, Remote, or Flex. Flex meant WFH on whatever schedule (or no schedule) your line manager approved, and they were mostly quite liberal with it.

      They announced a couple of weeks ago that everyone previously designated Flex will become Onsite, which means a minimum of 3 days per week in office, on a set schedule (with the option for occasional changeups as needed.) Remote will stay remote.

    8. not nice, don't care*

      Reminds of my workplace that used to barrage people with floods of ‘ideas’ and brainstorming session results that got overwhelmingly ‘nope’ responses & seemingly dropped for months/years, then did the thing anyway while bleating ‘there’s nothing new here, why are you all so surprised?!?’

      Now we’re just smacked with blunt force budget trauma when badmin escalate their reign of terror.

    9. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Your manager needs to escalate her questions ever higher up the org until she gets an answer, i.e. does this apply to any/all members of her team – and say if any of them were hired as fully remote.

    10. Anax*

      Ugh, I’m so sorry. I lost my last job that way – EEOC case ongoing, because it was disability-related.

      I hope things work out for your department. :(

    11. Annie*

      Ugh! I would just keep working as normal unless told otherwise! Or maybe you can do what was suggested a few days ago here: organize as a group and rebel against the new directive!!

    12. Ireland Bound*

      Ugh why why why do companies do this? At my old job we got a new leadership who was super into burying important messages and it drove me crazy. Good luck and I’m sorry you are experiencing this :(

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        I’m sure they picked it up as a “tip” from some terrible website or seminar: to guarantee that your employees read your full email, bury the important stuff!

    13. DJ*

      Yes push back as a group! We’ve had that directive too but lots of pushback. Thankfully everyone from the top down (except for the person who made the directive) is supportive of WFH openly saying how well it’s worked. Also not enough office space and costly to rent/purchase more offices and furnish!
      Also hadn’t considered the various groups ie PWD, carers, parents especially sole, older ppl, geographic diversity including regional rural and remote.
      Also transport changes make it harder to commute and a rental crisis preventing ppl moving closer to the office!
      Also the increased sick leave. The other day I was sick but with WFH managed to do 4 1/2 hours! Better the next day.
      And for those who do manage to relocate often away from their community (village) they’ve lost their back up meaning more time off work.
      Communities also lose out as those with long commutes cannot participate in their community!

    15. RuiningItForTheRestOfUs*

      As someone who has been working both a flexible schedule and fully or nearly fully work at home since well before the pandemic, I look at these weird office policies as yet another gift of the pandemic that keeps on giving.

      I need both flexible and WAH for medical reasons, but I’ve never once had to use the accommodations process to get it. Most companies I’ve interviewed at – hundreds in many different industries – have been doing hybrid for jobs that support it since the 90s and they have geographically diverse office locations that require exactly the same type of remote cooperation. As long as the company doesn’t actively do things to exclude folks not in the office it works incredibly well. When the pandemic hit I helped my company pick some supportive tools like Slack and Trello (which are both incredibly useful in office settings too) and we were so successful at remote work that we have downsized our office space which is now used mainly for storage of things we’re legally required to retain (there is space/support for a couple of folks to work in the office at any given time if they wish and one of us has taken to going in every once in a while for a change of scenery, but we can’t tell when he does that, and most of us don’t even have badges for the new space because we haven’t made an effort to acquire one).

      I am not looking forward to navigating this at some point in the future when some of these odd beliefs and policies have become more baked in. I know it’s going to be going from at most a vague reference to medical reasons why I want to WAH all the time – much of the time even that hasn’t been necessary – to having to disclose and navigate accommodations ahead of time and giving many more employers a reason not to hire me (yes, it’s illegal. I’ve also yet to get a single job where an interviewer noticeably figured out I’m visually impaired, and my success rate plummeted when I started using a walker for some of my other medical issues in a way that was noticeably correlated to the first time they saw the walker)

    16. a trans person*

      My last job did something like this, burying an RTO mandate halfway through a misleading email as if we somehow wouldn’t notice but would still comply. After more than six months of trying to get the management to treat us like intelligent people and not programmable automata, plus complete disinterest on the part of fellow ICs in organizing a union (I hate tech), I just quit in protest.

    17. Introvert girl*

      I had this happen at my workplace. I’m one of the remote employees living over 300 km away. After we pushed back and people started to contact their lawyers, the company decided to only force the people living in a 50 km radius to come back one day a week. The rest of us could keep working from home.

  3. Blue Pen*

    My spouse and I recently adopted a dog. Although she’s not a young puppy, she’s still very young and can be needy and unpredictable. (But she’s great!) We’re still in the early stages of everything, but chief among the list of to-do’s is getting her on a normal sleep schedule. At the moment, she’s up bright and early at 4 am.

    We are both exhausted—physically, emotionally, and mentally. But we genuinely love her and will not rehome her. She’s a member of the family now.

    However, I would be lying if I said I wasn’t feeling completely overwhelmed about this massive lifestyle change and what effect it might have on me in terms of productivity. Everyone at work knows what’s going on, and all have been wonderful. My manager, especially.

    I can already see progress coming from her as she settles more and more into her new home. So, I do trust that this, too, shall pass. But if you’re a dog or pet owner, I’d love to know more about your experience in this period and how you adjusted to a brand new lifestyle in relation to your job—what worked, what didn’t, what surprised you, etc.

    1. Katydid*

      I believe that someone I know said new pets can take up to 3 months to settle into a new home and new routine so definitely give it time. When my dog was a puppy, he was crate trained for the first 5 years of his life, especially when we lived in rentals. Which meant, when I was gone or sleeping he was in his crate – that way I knew he wasn’t eating or chewing on anything he shouldn’t and was safe. (And he woke up on my schedule) Make sure whoever goes to bed last takes the dog out one last time, that might get you another hour of sleep, but some dogs just wake up early. I still get up at 5:30 every day, even though I don’t have a dog anymore. I guess he trained me in those 13 years! This will pass and you will settle into a new routine – I was surprised at how exhausting the first months were when I got my dog. The only other advice I have is make sure the dog is getting enough exercise and mental stimulation during the day – walks, park, puzzle toys, training exercises. That will help immensely with sleeping through the night.

      1. Dog and cat fosterer*

        Rule of 3s for new pets:
        For the first 3 days they are confused
        After 3 weeks they are used to the schedule
        After 3 months they feel at home

        Hopefully Blue Pen should feel better within a few weeks. It’s not a perfect timeline, but I found that the first couple weeks of having a new dog are hard on both of us initially. I feel badly, but with my adult dog fosters I crate them overnight and when I go to work (I walk them a lot so that they are sleepy when crated). I can’t afford to be home all the time because work doesn’t allow it, and I crate them overnight so that I don’t get sleepy. These days I’m mostly fostering pairs of young pups because they can entertain each other. I spend a lot more time cleaning but there’s less guilt.

        When I adopted my own pup, I found it harder because I had to set up a routine that was going to work long-term, and it was exhausting to get up in the middle of the night for toileting. I have known couples where one went to bed later and one woke up earlier, and that worked really well for them. A friend adopted a pup and her husband goes to bed several hours after her, so he’d let out the pup just before his bedtime and she’d do the early morning pee break, and they didn’t have any issues at all lucky them!

    2. Keener*

      I feel so much solidarity with you. We got a very sweet and loving but also attention seeking and needy rescue dog 2 months ago. It was very tricky at first and created some stress and tension in our relationship. However, as he has figured out our expectations and we are getting a better handle on what he needs to be his best self things have drasticly improved.

      From having just been through something similar my top two tips are: 1) Don’t hesitate to seek the support of trainer/dog behavioralist 2) Try some doggy daycare.

      Our rescue has some challenging behaviors and despite reading everything I could/watching YouTube nothing was working. We had 1 private session with a trainer and with their guidance and new techniques there was a notable improvement in behaviour in less than 24h. When you reach out to a trainer they should be asking what issues you want to work on and be able to let you know if that is something they think they can help with.

      I also highly recommend doggy daycare once every week or two. It is such a load off to know that you have a day where you can focus on work/connecting with your spouse/not have to manage a challenging dog. As a bonus, the dog will likely be tired which can potentially help with the sleep.

      1. Keener*

        I also forgot to mention the 3 days/3 weeks/3 months rule of dog adoption. I am not including a link due to moderation, but if you search for it lots of info will pop up.

        It seems to hold true for many people. I definitely noticed a change at the 3 day and 3 week mark. Haven’t yet made it to 3 months to comment on that stage.

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        On the doggy daycare — I would specifically look for one that has a training option as well, for a new/young dog. I took my woofapotamus to a 3-week “doggy kindergarten” session (daily sessions, not like a boarding bootcamp or something, though they have those too) when she was a baby and have had her in their daycare at least once a month since. Their daycare program is only open to dogs that have been through some level of their training program, because the daycare staff helps reinforce the training that was taught in the training program.

        I have a backup daycare that I sometimes use, that is a little closer to home and has longer hours, but they do daycare and grooming only, no training, and the difference is VERY noticeable. I don’t know if it’s that the regular place has more consistency as far as the staff, or that the dogs at the backup place may or may not have had any training, or what, but she’s definitely better behaved after a day of her regular daycare than the backup place.

          2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            She’s a grey Dane, so when she was a baby but growing so fast she couldn’t keep up with where her paws ended, she bumbled around underfoot and I joked she was like a baby hippo, only a woof version. :) We also add other extensions too – right now she is a woofasnorapotamus, because she is worn out from her day of daycare and zonked out snoring on the sofa :)

    3. Medium Sized Manager*

      Congratulations!! We adopted our pup at 8 months old at a time that I did not have a ton of flexibility in my job, so some things that worked for us that are more dog-specific than job-specific:

      1. Kennel training! I know some people outside of the veterinary/animal space think it’s cruel, but it should be their safe space. My dog has developed anxiety as she has gotten older (11 in December), but her crate is regularly a place where she sleeps and goes of her own free will. When we did a cross country move and spent every night in a different hotel, she seemed to feel better knowing that she & her kennel always come with us.

      2. Pick a routine and be rigid to it as much as you can. Dogs are really smart and can pick up on these trends, which helps them navigate life. It’ll also help you if you are always on a break from 10-1030 for potty time or whatever it is.

      1. Sassy SAAS*

        This is GREAT advice!!

        I previously worked as a manager at a doggie daycare/training/walking/hiking company. A lot of the advice here is really great. Chiming in with my two cents.

        Structure and routine for your dog, especially early on, will be so so so important. It sounds like its “too much” if you think about how we (or our parents) raised dogs in the 90s/00s, but we know so much more now! Even something as simple as 5min of training before a meal can make a big difference.

        Look into enrichment ideas as well! Food puzzles, ‘chicken feeding’, frozen kongs or lick mats… anything to help tire that brain out.

        Find a trainer in your area! There’s a lot of different types of trainers out there, so find one that you like and that can help work towards YOUR goals. If you follow through with their training, you’ll see results, even if it takes a little while.

        Kennel/crate training is also a must! When we adopted our 3yo yorkie mix, he would have 15min of “decompression” time in his crate after walks. We stopped after a few months when we were confident that he knew the crate was his safe space and not a punishment (which is shouldn’t be! We don’t want to use the crate as punishment). Even if you’re not going to use a kennel in day-to-day life, it’s good to know your dog is comfortable in a kennel if there’s ever a medical emergency or a fire or any other kind of situation where your pup might be put in a kennel. You don’t want that first time in a kennel to be a scary one.

        I’d also look into hiring a walker or hiker! Getting your pup out for an hour or so away from you helps with the energy regulation and gives you a bit of a break. Plus, reinforcing commands with other handlers like the walker will make sure that the commands your pup learn STICK.

        Someone else mentioned the 3 weeks/3 months rule, and that is SO true! It’ll take a while for things to settle into a new normal. Don’t be afraid to ask for help!! Congrats on your new family member!

    4. ursula*

      Maybe you are already doing this, but it helped me a lot to have an agreement with my partner about one person being “on duty” every night, and the other person knowing that they could focus on getting the best sleep possible and the other would handle it. We rotated alternating nights, and part of the job of the person on duty was to minimize noise/disruption so the sleeping person could sleep. If pup is active all night, then maybe even having the off-duty person sleep in a different room (especially the night before important work events, for example). We found it way more liveable than trying to share the responsibility all the time.

      1. Stacy Fakename*

        We did the same thing and it helped SO MUCH. I would often wake up first, but knowing that I could nudge my partner and go back to sleep half the time was supremely helpful.

      2. AVP*

        We do this with our toddler, too. It’s really helpful to take out all the guesswork of who should get up. Neither of us are morning people so it’s nice to know what to plan for.

        Over time, my body has adjusted and I’m much more easily awake at 7am, but it’s taken a solid three years to get to that point. And having days where I’m strictly off morning duty makes it possible.

      3. DannyG*

        Similar experience: wife is retired, I still have early/long hours @ hospital. She stays up late so she would let the girls out (dachshund sisters from the same litter) around midnight then I would do so again around 0430-0500. Also, a bedtime routine: play, potty, then “Bedtime for Puppies”. They are 15 months now, but pretty much follow the same routine. They are crate trained, but usually don’t need to be in it, but it’s good for travel.

    5. Ephemeroptera*

      Hey, congrats on your new family member! But I know how overwhelming the first couple of weeks with a new dog can be. We got my pup as an unruly, high-energy teenager who needed to have your attention at all times or he would get progressively more frantic. It made working (and basically everything else) challenging for a while.

      You already know that your pup will settle as she gets used to living with you. Keep her on a routine as much as you possibly can–feed at the same time(s), walk at the same times, play and train at the same times. If she knows what to expect from any given day, she’ll feel more secure and (hopefully) more calm. Both physical exercise and mental exercise (like training or hiding a toy for her to find) will help tire her out.

      Another thing that I didn’t know until I got my dog: you need to teach some dogs how to chill out. Not every dog knows how to rest. We had to treat my dog for laying on his bed until he got the message that staying there and taking a nap while I worked was a Good Thing. Stuffing a Kong or other hollow rubber toy with wet food and freezing it is a good way to make this happen (licking is a calming behavior for dogs). Kikopup’s channel on YouTube has a lot of great videos about training calm behaviors in dogs with positive reinforcement.

      Otherwise, be kind to yourself while you work through this. It’s okay to give your dog a Kong and go on a walk by yourself to take a break from her, or leave her with a trusted dog walker or doggie daycare to give yourself alone time. The two of you will figure this out.

    6. Czech Mate*

      My advice:
      -Can your dog go on walks yet? If so, take her on two walks a day. My husband and I adopted our puppy during the pandemic, so we had SOME flexibility, but I’d wake up and walk him before work, and then my husband would take him on another walk in the afternoon. That cut down on puppy tantrums/waking up in the middle of the night. Now that he’s an adult, he just gets one walk a day and multiple bathroom breaks.
      -If one or both of you work from home, your dog will 100% get separation anxiety. It’s a good idea to get her used to spending some time alone now if you can.
      -Raising a puppy is similar to raising a baby, but you don’t always get the same flexibility/understanding as a new parent to a child (we can discuss whether that’s right or wrong, but that’s what it is). Sometimes, I’ve found, it’s easier to say the accommodation is for you, ex. “I need time off for an appointment” or “I didn’t sleep well, need to take a half day,” as opposed to saying you need an accommodation for your puppy, ex. “I need to take time off for my puppy” in the way that the parent of a human child might say “I need to take my baby to the doctor.”

      Good luck!

    7. Abigail*

      Keep the rest of your lifestyle as healthy as possible. 5 servings of fruits and vegetables, exercise, minimal screen time, no caffeine in the afternoon, limit or eliminate alcohol. This is not a complete list but you get the idea.

      When I am low on sleep shoring up the health I can control has tremendous benefits.

      1. Blue Pen*

        Thank you for this (and thank you to everyone for their great advice)! I needed this one, especially. I can already see these things slipping, and I can 100% feel the effects already.

    8. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      Someone said part of this already, but swapping who’s in charge of what–but I would say, not just at night. Whoever is on dog duty is NOT on any chore duty except what relates to the dog. If your division of labor is such that one person does the laundry, one person does the food, etc., then the day that person is in charge of the dog, they let that other responsibility slip. If you normally make dinner but it’s your day to take the dog, then you eat sandwiches/soup/something picked up or reheated. If you normally do the dishes or the laundry, it can sit for a day.

    9. Great Frogs of Literature*

      Lots of other folks have good advice, but if the waking up at 4am continues for a while, you can ask your vet if a small dose of melatonin might be appropriate — we foster dogs, and 3-5mg at bedtime really helps a ~70lb dog sleep through the night if they’re on a weird sleep schedule.

      1. Blue Pen*

        Great idea, thank you! My spouse is always up around 5-5:30 am, so we’re used to the earlier mornings. But 4 am is just a little *too* early, so I’ll look into this if it continues for a while. She did wake up at 4:30 this morning, though, so maybe we’re on the up-and-up! :)

    10. not nice, don't care*

      I take 2 weeks off when we bring home a new pup, then coordinate with my partner’s part time work schedule so that new pup is never alone for the first couple of months.
      We also set the alarm for every 2 hours overnight to make sure new pup never learns (as much as possible) that pottying in the house is an option. As new pup gets the idea we lengthen the time between overnight breaks.
      Unsupervised pup always has a crate/cozy nook and exercise pen, but none of our critters are ever alone(without humans) more than 4 hours. Our current dogs both had serious surgeries and rehab, and are challenging breeds, so can’t do daycare or deal with pet sitters.

      I would absolutely quit a job if I got any flack for my household’s needs.

    11. pally*

      You have lots of good advice here.
      Three weeks ago, I adopted an older dog.
      He’s still settling in-which I expected.

      We have a consistent schedule. Even on weekends. I take him outside at the same times each day. He had some accidents at first, even with pee pads out. So when I was at work, he was confined to a small area of one room with everything he needs. He was not keen on that, but he complied with going into the cordoned off area.

      At night I find he is using the pee pads. That was a good sign. He ‘gets’ that he must use pee pads.

      Yesterday, I left him unconfined to see if he’d use them when I’m out for a few hours. He did. Today I’m testing a full workday to see if he continues to use them.

      Someone once told me: A happy dog is a tired dog. So I would walk the dogs a lot. A good 30 to 60 minutes walk each day. And we had a daily scheduled play time. And daily time with learning commands. All this seemed to get them to conform to my wake-up schedule.

      Congrats on the new dog!

    12. Dust Bunny*

      I’m for crate-training for at night. Our dogs have learned that it’s a strong “this is now bedtime” message, go right to sleep, and are quiet until it’s time for us to get up (within reason; the little dog we have now needs to get up fairly early to accommodate her small bladder). We do not crate during the day unless it’s an absolute emergency, but she has retired adults who are around to supervise. I am pretty opposed to dogs spending that much time in a crate. I know it’s their space and they probably sleep a lot but it’s still a small area– would get bored spending all day in my room, too.

      Extra exercise helps. Current dog gets as much walking as we can handle and goes to daycare once or twice a week to really run her out. She is some combination of Chihuahua/poodle/schnauzer/mystery small breeds and about an 7-8 out of 1o on the energy scale, and is also much more clingy than our previous dogs. I’m trying to get the retired adults to hire a dog walker at least part of the time.

      1. ASD always*

        Mileage may vary on crating at night. Our dog was always fine with his crate during the day for a few hours but when we tried using it overnight he hated it. Unfortunately we later had to confine him while he recovered from surgery and was on “bed rest” and he’s been almost claustrophobic ever since.

    13. Raw Cookie Dough*

      Wear the same t-shirt for a few days, such as over the weekend. Have your husband do the same. Put these shirts in your dog’s crate, as part of her ‘nest’. It will make a world of difference in acclimating her to her home, and feeling like you’re near when she’s sleeping by herself. You’ll only need to do this for a few weeks. Every once in a while I still throw one of my husband’s t-shirts into our dog’s crate instead of washing it right away. Our dog immediately curls up with it.

    14. Sandwich*

      I’ve fostered a lot of dogs and the biggest thing that helped with sleeping is wearing them out before bedtime. I really only needed to do this with puppies, so the timing might be different if your dog is older, but about 30 minutes before bedtime, I would wake them up (part of the problem is pre-bedtime napping) and make them play until bedtime. It made a big difference with waking up in the middle of the night and super early.
      I also didn’t immediately feed or give a ton of attention when they woke up really early. I’d take them out (or to the puppy pad if they were really little), but keep everything low key so waking up early wasn’t exciting and fun.
      Exercise during the day is good too. Walks are important even if you have a yard. Seeing and smelling new things goes a long way toward tiring out a dog.
      Going from no dog to a dog is a big adjustment. I definitely felt overwhelmed with my first for a few weeks. This isn’t quite related to establishing routines, but I would also recommend looking into a puppy playtime or puppy class. I really regret not doing that with my dog. It will provide some socialization and training (and you’ll get to talk to other people in the same boat).

      1. ronda*

        It was my habit with my 1st dog to feed her when I got up in the morning.

        I stopped that with my next dog cause she started waking me up at 4am :).

    15. you get the dog you pet*

      A dog trainer once told me “you get the dog you pet” (as opposed to petting a hyper dog that wants attention). So I’ve always showered my dogs with attention and petting when they are chill and calm (quietly praising them for being calm and moving at slow to moderate pace so I don’t rile them up.) All my dogs mostly laid around the house between walks and play time, even my current high energy, high anxiety dog. She has her moments (rescue who came with a lot of issues), but we always end the day with quiet time while I get ready for bed. She sleeps in her crate in our room and is quiet thru the night (except when snoring, lol).

      Most of the other things that worked have already been listed by others.

      A great way to tire a dog on bad weather days when you can’t do long walks is a hide and seek game with treats or toys.

    16. Goldenrod*

      Hang in there, you will get used to it!! When we first got our cat, I was embarrassed that I felt some buyers remorse…I loved him immediately and would NEVER want to lose him, but I also was shocked at the big changes in routine…I know cats are supposed to be easy, but he’s a needy cat. ;P

      I think it’s so normal to have an adjustment period where you sort of freak out for a while! He’s still a lot of work but now it’s all hard-wired into our routines and it feels totally normal. It’s the change that is hard! So just hang in there, and what feels disruptive now, won’t later.

      I hope that helps!! Congrats on your new little family member.

  4. CherryBlossom*

    I was fired for being a young, conventionally attractive woman; how do I talk about that in job interviews?

    In my last role, I worked as an admin alongside two other women. I’m in my 20s, they were in their 50s and 60s, respectively. I was fired very abruptly; at the time I thought it was because of a newly diagnosed chronic illness. I spoke to an employment lawyer, conversations were had, and eventually it came out that the admins were mad I was getting “special treatment” for “being a pretty little thing” and lied about my performance to get me fired.

    To be clear, I was never anything but professionally polite to everyone, so I’d hope no one thought I was flirting. But combine me being nice with the other two admins being rude (they’d often call the IT team idiots, for example), I still got preferential treatment. My computer would be updated first, tickets and requests were marked high priority if I submitted them, etc. Having seen some of the emails was really rough (I was called awful, sexist names), but also made it clear all of this was happening without my knowledge.

    I’m trying to move past it and find a new job, but I keep getting asked why I left this role, and I don’t know what to say. How do can I professionally talk about this whole mess?

    1. Tio*

      Where was your manager in all this? Is the company willing to give you a good reference? Maybe “I was let go abruptly and without any stated performance concerns. In the end, the company just didn’t seem like a good fit, but has agreed to be my reference”?

      1. CherryBlossom*

        Ah, I should’ve clarified! One of the older admins was my manager, hence why she was able to lie about my performance to get me fired. While the legal stuff is ongoing, they’ve agreed to only confirm my dates of employment.

        1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          I would hope that your lawyer is pushing for the company to say that you were laid off or something and not fired. have you asked your lawyer what you should say in interviews.

    2. Myrin*

      Oh my, I’m so sorry to hear that, how awful! D:

      I reckon you weren’t at that job for very long so you can’t say you wanted to try something new?
      If I’m right about that, is there anything else you could reasonably name as a problem which made you want to leave, like the work itself turning out to be quite different from what you had imagined or were told or the reporting structure changing shortly after you started to something that was negatively affecting you?

      1. Myrin*

        Argh, how embarrassing! Between reading your comment and starting to write my own, I somehow already forgot (five seconds later!) that you were fired instead of leaving voluntarily; in that case, my suggestions aren’t very helpful, I’m sorry.

        1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          but if the OP is still in negotiatons with the old company she should push them to say that she was not fired.

    3. WellRed*

      Did your lawyer negotiate a reference for you to not say you were fired? That’s where I’d start and then the usual “ I was looking for new opportunities” or whatever makes the most sense for you.

    4. Mouse*

      Would your former managers agree to confirm your performance was not an issue? If so, could you say something like “a former coworker lied about my performance and I was abruptly let go without an investigation at the time. A subsequent investigation by the company revealed that my coworker was dishonest and [name] and [name] at [company] can confirm this.” Otherwise, the lawyer you consulted with previously may have some advice?

    5. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

      The one thing you absolutely can’t say is “the older women had it in for me” so generic is best:
      – “The job wasn’t a good fit for me.”
      – “I wasn’t able to exercise (skill this job calls for) as much as I’d like”
      – “I’d like to work closer to home/in this part of town/for a bigger company/for a smaller company”

      If they absolutely insist on going into the weeds of why
      “I was let go, but in my defense, it happened after I had received (x number) good reviews and soon after I received a negative health diagnosis.” Then go on to assure them that your health will not affect your performance – or ask for accommodations if it will.

      1. Seashell*

        Reporting a health diagnosis at an interview seems like a spectacularly bad idea unless accommodations are actually needed.

        1. Rex Libris*

          Yep. It will have a good chance of getting you passed by. For a completely unrelated non-federally protected reason, of course. /s

    6. M2*

      First of all get your lawyer to have your company give you a good reference or at least be neutral and give dates of employment and say that’s the standard.
      Did you get a settlement from your old employer or did your lawyer not think there was a case? Whether you move forward with litigation or a settlement get that decent reference and proof of it in writing.

      I would say job is not a good fit and looking for X and Y. Alison has great examples on here. I don’t even know if I would go into you were let go and why because some hiring managers might worry. Honestly, many managers will not hire people who are outwardly negative about their former company. There’s a way to say things diplomatically and airing dirty laundry during an interview usually isn’t the right forum, so just be aware of what and how you say things.

      I wouldn’t bring up your medical condition until you have a written offer letter. Unfortunately some people discriminate even though it’s illegal.

      I’m sorry this happened to you.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Yes, “job was not a good fit” or even “company culture was not a good fit” is a good, generic answer for that. Will the interviewees know you were fired? If not, then don’t bring that up, but if so, the “not a good fit” is the way to go. If they dig further and ask why it wasn’t a good fit, try to focus more on what you’re looking for in the new job, not what happened in the old job. Something like, “I would love to work somewhere where everyone is polite and upbeat.”

        As for the legal stuff, I hope that gets resolved soon and in your favor, because eff those people.

      2. Compliance is fun*

        I’ve read all the comments below this one, and it’s insane to me how everyone is saying as a general rule not to bad mouth a previous employer. I’m thinking it could be a cultural thing because I’m Australian and we don’t view employment the same way?

        But literally I started looking for work after 2.5 months at a previous job and the interviewers asked me why and I told them pretty bluntly “I was hired to help with compliance and efficiency and it turns out they weren’t interested in either of those things.” And the interviewers we like “yeah beauty mate” and I got the job.

        1. RagingADHD*

          It’s generally fine to say something negative if you left voluntarily and the reason is work-related, like your example. Also, stuff like “my paycheck bounced” or “there have been a lot of layoffs and I’m looking for stability,” etc.

          But if you have been fired for cause and say things to the effect of, “my manager hated me for no reason and those bad performance reviews were all lies,” or “my ugly old lady manager was jealous because I’m pretty,” that immediately calls your credibility into question and makes employers wonder whether you were the problem.

          Even if you left voluntarily and the reason is something like “my boss is mean,” you need to think about the wording to avoid sounding childish.

    7. A Book about Metals*

      Ugh I’m sorry you have to deal with this. There was an old letter here about someone who was in your boss’s shoes – basically they fired or were extremely cruel to an employer who was considered younger and attractive. (Yours sounds much less severe FWIW – the old one involved criminal charges IIRC)

    8. Parenthesis Guy*

      This seems like a good question for your lawyer.

      Depending on what restrictions you have, there may be legal ramifications for blaming the company for your termination. Your lawyer should be able to provide insight with that. Without knowing your restrictions, it would be hard for me to provide insights.

      That stated, if your company has agreed to not say that you were fired but rather just confirm dates of employment, then you may be able to avoid talking about how you were terminated altogether.

    9. Strive to Excel*

      How long were you in the role? Would it be possible for you to just leave it off your resume?

      I’m sorry, that sucks. I would probably go with “culture fit” and if that doesn’t work “terminated not long after diagnosis”. Because at the end of the day you *did* get unfairly terminated, and whether it was because your admins were jealous or because they didn’t want to deal with your illness.

      Alternatively, it sounds like you’re in legal debate with them. Does your lawyer have a suggested script, or has one been agreed on?

    10. Pay no attention...*

      I would tailor what you say to the job you are applying for rather than a statement about your last job. Pick something different about the prospective employer, “I’m hoping to find a company with XYZ.” anything different… bigger/smaller, better commute, different mission/vision/industry.

      The previous manager agreeing to just give dates is still not really going to work in your favor. See if you can have them say your position was eliminated — so you were laid off rather than fired and also see if they will agree to have someone else listed as your manager for the time that you were there. Hopefully your former manager will be fired in all of this, but either way, she shouldn’t be the one verifying your dates of employment.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yeah, try to focus on not why you left, but what this employer offers that you want.

        Even if your manager was totally monstrous (and it sounds like she was), you do have to be super careful how you describe this to new employers. Since people only have your side of the story, you don’t want to speak ill of a pervious employer. (Without context, it’s really hard to explain these things in a 30 minute phone screen.)

    11. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      “I was fired because of a violation of employment law which was cleared when I hired legal representation. It was no fault of my own.”

      1. Seashell*

        I can’t imagine most companies are itching to hire someone who is apt to hire legal representation. Even if LW is 100% in the right, I suspect this will get the resume tossed immediately.

      2. Mad Harry Crewe*

        No, you don’t want to bring up any legal dispute with your previous employer. As with any kind of complaint, the prospective employer doesn’t know you. Absent any other info, what you are saying here is “I got litigious with my last employer when I was fired” which is not something most people are going to want to sign up for. Doesn’t matter that OP is in the right, the interviewers don’t know that.

      3. Synaptically Unique*

        Absolutely do not tell prospective employers that you hired a lawyer. Do not tell them you didn’t mesh with other employees, do not tell them you were treated negatively, do not tell them you have chronic health issues. You need to keep it positive even though it’s anything but. My experience has been that every time I’ve seen someone hired who said negative things about a past employer in the interviews, there’s been drama in this job as well. Not saying that sometimes it’s not legit from the applicant side, but I would not be willing to take a chance as a hiring manager. Some good suggestions already listed for benign or positive framing suggestions.

    12. Phoenix*

      I’m so sorry this happened to you. Maybe you could say, “My last job wasn’t a good culture fit; I’m looking for an environment that’s committed to diversity, equity, and inclusion”? That answer is accurate and wouldn’t raise any red flags for me as an interviewer. Since the last job has agreed to only confirm dates of employment, then you don’t need to specifically state that you were fired.

      1. RedinSC*

        I like this answer a lot.

        I think it gets to the point and doesn’t really point fingers while making it clear that the other company has some flaws.

      2. jasmine*

        this is a good one. it communicates what you need without setting off any flags by saying outright that you were discriminated against

      3. The Magician's Auntie*

        I’m going to go against the tide here and say I’m not mad about this answer. Because it implies some sort of disagreement or drama in your previous job, and it won’t help you to imply that, in my opinion. There’s a comment from Busy Middle Manager below that I agree with, saying that it never helps to look like you’re badmouthing a previous employer, in an interview.

    13. PX*

      “Unfortunately the role turned out not to be a good fit” covers a multitude of sins so this is what I’d go to. Make sure you have a good pivot/follow up explaining why whatever you’re applying to now is a match for what you want.

    14. Emmeline*

      Here’s some things I tried when I quit a job after my boss bullied me:

      I’m interested in working in a more collaborative environment that has open communication. I’m ready to join a company that values my skills in XYZ and allows me to use them more freely.

      I’m looking for a company that does XYZ and want to be a part of it.

      I wanted to work in an environment that supported my professional goals. I’m considering opportunities that would play better to my strengths — such as XYZ.

    15. HonorBox*

      This stinks and I’m sorry.

      I agree with others that your lawyer may be able to provide the best guidance. And I sure as hell hope that they’re able to negotiate something far better than you worked there specific dates, given the evidence you have.
      I’m trying to put myself in the shoes of someone interviewing you to think about how an answer might land. If you said, “I was let go, and through some additional fact finding have found that it was nothing about my performance. I won’t say more, but it really doesn’t matter. I’m excited about (company name) and (a specific example or two about what they do and what you could bring).”

    16. Busy Middle Manager*

      You don’t talk about it. Unfortunately this falls under “don’t badmouth previous employers” when you job hunt. I would stick with a neutral “position was eliminated”

      It took me two decades to finally figure out why interviews ask about your previous job. They are testing if you are low drama. They don’t really care about the specifics. Those can be mentioned at happy hour in a year or two.

      Being low drama doesn’t just mean “I didn’t cause it,” it also means that there tends not to be drama around you. Not fair, I know. But the point is to get a job. Not give 100% accurate description of everything you’ve been though. This is why I had to find people to talk to about my ridiculous jobs and coworkers, so I didn’t inadvertently vent about them in interviews: even if I/you were the aggrieved party and everything said was true, and often entertaining.

      I know this is unfair, but it all sounds over the top. Even if it is true. Sorry for that. But it’s just the truth. And if you want a job, you do not want to be over the top. It does sound a bit like Blanche Devereaux when she said, in a rerun recently on, “I was a lonely child, my siblings refused to play with me because I was so beautiful.” Which was met with eye rolls.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Yeah, while it may not be fair, the people you are interviewing with don’t know you and given that the point of an interview is to present yourself in the best light, they will assume you are leaving out anything that doesn’t reflect well on you/only giving one side of the story and for all they know, “I was fired for being a young, conventionally attractive person that all my colleagues were jealous of” could translate as “I’ve a very high opinion of myself and think I’m above everybody else and let them see that, so my colleagues understandably disliked me and when I got fired, I blamed it on their jealousy and didn’t do any soul searching” or “I have ageist views and treated my older coworkers badly and when I got fired for it, I assumed they were jealous of me for being younger than them” or “I have bought into sexism and see everything through the lens of women being competitive.”

        I am not saying any of these are the case in CherryBlossom’s case. It’s very credible that she ran into a couple of jealous bullies and the way she describes it here, it definitely sounds like she has evidence for it – she didn’t consider it until evidence came out to support it. But the interviewer doesn’t know anybody involved and people aren’t going to say “I got fired for being ageist” or anything onto that line in an interview so there is a high risk that even if they are 95% sure that CherryBlossom is giving an accurate description of events, there is that 5% chance she might have been the problem and…they probably won’t take the risk if they have twenty other applicants that they don’t have that little doubt about.

        It isn’t fair because like you say, sometimes the drama is from those around somebody and there was nothing they could do about it. Some companies are just full of bees. But without context, the interview isn’t going ot know which side the drama came from and they can’t depend on the word of the interviewee, so they are probably going to figure it’s safer to pass.

        If the position was eliminated, that’s an easy “out.” If it wasn’t, I’d be careful about actually lying because what if they know the company and know CherryBlossom was replaced.

    17. working mom*

      Not a customs broker – but former freight forwarder back on the consumer side, so familiar with all of this. I want to be transparent – I have always works with luxury goods which does make the last 4 digits easier (there are only about 10 HS codes for art and antiques, and watches / jewelry/handbags/shoes usually have the necessary details to resolve). But I think the first step would depend on if your brokerage firm manages all types of cargo or specific subsets. If you import a vast array of goods – you essentially are struck explaining the situation and trying to guide the conversation based on the first 6 and what you still need (IE yes I get these are fine art paintings, I need to know if it is over 100 Years old). If you have a more specific field of items you handle, you could try a form to guide answers.

      There will always be push back from people who”know better”. The yelling is the worst part of the job in my opinion and often the only amusement from it is knowing just how wrong they are. Hope this helps and supply chain solidarity.

    18. Bike Walk Barb*

      How about “the position wasn’t as described and I’m looking for something where I can contribute and thrive, which I can at your firm because XYZ”? It wasn’t as described because the description didn’t include saying you’d be subjected to personally targeted sexist management and dishonesty.

    19. Hyaline*

      How much are you comfortable saying? Because you could range from “It wasn’t a good fit” to “The company culture was not a good fit for me” to “I was disappointed in elements of the culture when it came to diversity and equity.” (Ordered in, IMO, least to greatest information and least to greatest risk.) I would then pivot very quickly to what you’re excited about with THIS job–“Googly Eyes Unlimited wasn’t a great fit for me in terms of company culture, but the international reach of PomPoms Plus really interests me! I wasn’t able to use my PomPom degree in my previous job and would be thrilled to apply that here…” I would not mention: Chronic health issues, medical diagnoses, ongoing legal case, assertions that others lied about you because you’re pretty. Though these shouldn’t matter, they could send up yellow flags in an initial interview.

    20. DJ*

      If you haven’t been there that long and have other experience leave it off your resume. How ever if you need to leave the job on your resume, given other staff felt you were nice to them can you use one of them as a referee instead?

      1. Despachito*

        This is what I was thinking about – could a different member (or several) of staff you were praised by used as a reference?

  5. Tradd*

    I’d appreciate input on this from others who deal internationally. I’m a customs broker. Our overseas agents often come to us asking for duties, HS/tariff code, etc., on shipments they are quoting for customers. The problem is that the shippers in other countries think the US handles things exactly like they do. Any country that is a member of the WTO has the same tariff number to the first 6 digits. Countries are free to add more digits if they like. The US goes to 10 digits. We are given 6 digits and since it usually doesn’t come close to matching a number in the US tariff, we paste a snip from the relevant section of the US tariff into an email and tell the overseas agent that their customer will have to choose the correct 10 digit US code. We are often not even given a basic cargo description so I can’t even take a guess at the correct US tariff number.

    The problem is that overseas customers often get very combative with us. They insist their 6 digit number is what the US uses, even when we’ve provided a snip from the US tariff. Virtually all of the interaction is via email, but some will call me and scream at me in English I can barely understand. I try to be patient and explain that the US is 10 digits, which is different from other countries. But I’m at my whit’s end. Any idea of how to deal with this?

    1. Fake Cheese*

      I have no idea if this would work in your case, but could you have them fill out a form that​has data validation built in to enforce the full 10 digits?

      1. Tradd*

        They don’t know what the full 10 digits are. They only have 6. That’s why I provide a snip from the relevant section of the US tariff as their customer has to choose the correct 10 digits.

        1. LizB*

          Can that field be a dropdown where you list all the relevant codes as options? If there are too many for a single dropdown, maybe you can have a responsive form, where first they choose the larger category and then the code dropdown lists the options for that category?

            1. ThatOtherClare*

              Are you or is anyone in your office handy with excel? You can create your own form using VBA and put whatever fields you like into it. It’s actually kind of fun to play around with once you get over the initial ‘This seems hard and unfamiliar and not like something I should be able to do’ inertia. Start with a small goal like ‘Make a Yes/No button’ on Monday and you’ll be able to make a form by Friday. You could diy a form for them to fill out and send it with your reply email.

          2. RedinSC*

            I like this idea with a fillable form. DIrect people to the form, and then the drop downs or check boxes.

            For examples
            Cargo Type
            Garment – options to get codes, like shoes, cotton clothing, etc whatever works
            Parts – AUtomotive (and then drop down here if needed more, so nested), Computer (again more options)

            So anyone requesting a quote, has to fill in the form that has all the info you need. This could be hosted on your website OR just a fillable PDF that gets emailed back to you?

    2. Tio*

      Anyone who would call and scream at you is someone you can’t talk sense into. I always handled it by being very bland (grey rocking) and honestly if we got a customer who would yell at us I would say “I can’t discuss this if you can’t be professional. Please email me or call back when you are able to discuss this at a normal volume.”

      But if I were feeling really saucy I once told someone “The law and my answer don’t change just because your volume has.”

      Otherwise, being very boring tends to work. “Unfortunately that’s not correct. Unfortunately that’s not correct. The codes are 10 digits, so I can’t proceed until we have 10 valid digits or a complete description.”

      However, if they’re not giving you the description and you’re expected to classify, can you make a little mini-survey for them to fill out? Origin, material composition, intended function, per item value, simple ill in the blank style options? We actually made a microsoft form with little fill in the blanks or multi choice options. The less you make a client think the easier it is to get info out of them. (I ahve found this mentality works on CBP too, lol)

      1. Tradd*

        Tito – this is an example of what I will get. 3926.90. That’s it. No cargo description. So I take a snip of that big section and tell them they have to choose the correct 10 digit number. I tell them all that if they want more accurate information from me, that they have to provide a cargo description. Then they come back with something very general like plastic parts. Or my favorite – garments! I even will explain that any country that belongs to the WTO has the same first 6 digits, but the US uses 10. I will tell the screamers that I cannot understand them at all and to please email me. To be honest, they’re usually on cell phones and the call quality is bad enough to use that as a good reason to end the call.

        2. Tio*

          Yeah, I’m familiar. What I have done is send them a little questionairre:
          Hello! I need more information to complete the quote please provide the following details on our questionnaire:
          Material composition in percentage
          Select one: Shirt, sweater, Jacket, pants, dress, full body garment, hat glove shoe etc
          Trim: Hemmed, elastic, no trim
          Adult or child?
          Male or female?
          Waterproof?
          etc. They are more amenable to filling in blanks than describing something, for whatever reason. I also request a picture of the item.

          When you’re dealing with parts, I usually put a note, “For parts, please describe the machine or item it is meant to be used in”

          2. Runcible Wintergreen*

            This is the way. I work a lot with customs brokers as the person providing the information, and a lot of times they don’t really understand the information they’re asking for. I try to be gracious and remember that the other person doesn’t know how to do my job… but being patient only goes so far if the other person isn’t playing along.

            If someone does not understand the basics of the HTS then sending a snip of the schedule will probably not help, to be honest. Either send them to another resource to identify the 10 digit code, or extract the information you need to make the determination for them.

            Alternately, if they are just looking for a rough quote, can you proceed with some estimate, or whatever information they do have, and note that the information is subject to change based on additional information given that the 10 digit code has not been finalized? You may also want to emphasize that if they do not cooperate with you, their shipments are in jeopardy of being held at customs, shipped back, or destroyed if the importation information is not correct. If they are only seeing this as a “you issue” and not recognizing the impact it could have on them, that might help as well.

            1. Tradd*

              The overseas agents/customers have this weird hesitation to provide specific cargo descriptions without us asking multiple times for it. I mean, if the shipment will be steel wire to the US, there is all sorts of specifics about the product (wire diameter, etc), that I don’t have. We give the snip because most of the time someone familiar with their product can just look at it and say, here is where it goes. Having them look at the snip also saves a lot of back and forth, which is important for timeliness when you’re dealing with customers in Asia.

              1. Compliance is fun*

                Can you send them the snips without the tariff code, and without telling them it’s for the tariff? Just say “for compliance reasons we need a general description of the product, please select which option best fits your item.”

    3. Insert Pun Here*

      How do they typically provide the number to you? Web form, paper form, email, phone call, or some other method?

    4. PX*

      As someone who deals in process, my approach would be to try and think about this systematically. The other people dont know what they dont know. So (unfortunately) your job is to figure out how to make them give you what you need with as little pain as possible.

      1. It could be that its easier to make *them* give you the code – in which case, your process needs to involve making *them* familiar with where to find the US codes and how to select the right one.

      2. Or the alternative is *you* figure out which code they need based information they give you – in which case your job is to ask the right questions to get the correct cargo information (this could be via a mandatory form or a standard set of questions you ask anyone who calls or whatever). And as someone who has designed stuff like this before, the right questions means *assume these people know nothing and need to be guided through every single basic step in order to give the required information. *

      1. Tradd*

        They give us the partial code – the 6 digits that are used in THEIR country. The US goes to 10 digits, which is the problem. These requests from the overseas agents are all unsolicited. I can’t give them a link to the US tariff online and tell them to figure it out. As Tio can confirm, the US tariff is very complicated. The EU tariff, for example, is just a list of the tariff numbers. The US tariff has all these indents, which can be extremely complicated to deal with. Sometimes I have to print out pages from the online tariff and take a ruler to the indents to make sure I’m classifying something correctly. Also the US tariff has a couple od different columns, 1 is for regular, standard duty, plus free trade agreements (little codes to indicate which country or free trade agreement). Column 2 is really high duty and used to be for the Soviet Bloc countries. Now it’s Cuba, N. Korea, Russia, Belarus – countries we don’t have regular trade with. Then there is the superscript blue number on duty percentages that means you have to look at the chapter end notes to find out which additional HS code it is for the additional China duty. You also have to already know which additional HS means which additional China duty amount.

        Then there are the additional duties for steel and aluminum, which are not in the tariff at all. We just can’t turn non-brokers or non-educated people on the US tariff. They get all sorts of stuff wrong that we have to correct!

      2. Tio*

        I have to say, 1 is basically impossible, as Tradd and I both have to be licensed to do what we do. It’s part of the regulations.

        The importers can always give us their best guess, but it would be wildly out of place in our industry for us to try and force them to learn how to classify.

        1. Tradd*

          Per the 1993 Mod Act (Customs Modernization Act), importers were made responsible under US customs law for being responsible for making sure they had the correct classification for their import customs clearance. Before this, it was the brokers who were responsible. How it works in reality really depends on who the importer has on staff. Do they have someone with a brokers license who knows how to classify or other experienced with doing it? Or do they have someone in purchasing/supply chain with enough knowledge to be dangerous, aka not totally clueless, but don’t totally know what they’re doing either. In those cases, the broker is a consultant.

          It’s different when we’re dealing with overseas agents and shippers on DDP shipments. That’s delivered duty paid. That means all the costs, including US duty and import fees, are paid by the shipper. The US allows non-US domiciled companies to serve as foreign importers of record. That is why we have the issues with the HS code like I outlined in my OP.

          1. Tio*

            Yeah, of course, but I was assuming you were talking to the overseas agents (correctly) whom we’re not going to e able to force to classify. And there’s a fairly recent ruling in CROSS that says that classifying is considered transacting customs business and should be done by a licensed broker. That could be one on their staff (such as what I do) one they hire or they can make up a number as its on them. But we can’t really teach the origin agents to classify, they aren’t allowed to.

            1. Tradd*

              I think I responded to the wrong person then! Yes, classifying has to be done by a licensed entity (corporate or individual), but frankly, some US importers are fairly decent at it. But yes, we can’t force overseas agents/customers to learn as they can’t legally.

    5. Donna A Eis*

      Instead of asking them to report the numbers can you ask them to give you a copy of a report/screen shot/source document that assigned that number? Then you’re not relying on them to agree with you that it has 10 digits, they are agreeing to send you the official “thing” in which it’s already documented.

      I’m so sorry you are being yelled at and abused in your job by people who should be professional and respectful. You don’t deserve that.

      1. Tradd*

        Yes, we do provide a screen shot to the relevant section in the US tariff. That’s the “snip” referenced to in the original post.

        1. Donna A Eis*

          What I meant to say was can you ask that _their_ response be a screen shot or document that is proof of the assignment of the number. It changes it from a verbal conversation to a written one and from their conjecture about their number to the source of fact.

          1. Tradd*

            They don’t have a screen shot. They have an email from THEIR customer with whatever their customer tells them 6 digit tariff number used in THEIR country is. A screen shot from them, of the US tariff, doesn’t exist at this point in the communication. And they can’t give me a screen shot from THEIR tariff, as it will likely not be in English.

    6. working mom*

      Not a customs broker – but former freight forwarder back on the consumer side, so familiar with all of this. I want to be transparent – I have always works with luxury goods which does make the last 4 digits easier (there are only about 10 HS codes for art and antiques, and watches / jewelry/handbags/shoes usually have the necessary details to resolve). But I think the first step would depend on if your brokerage firm manages all types of cargo or specific subsets. If you import a vast array of goods – you essentially are struck explaining the situation and trying to guide the conversation based on the first 6 and what you still need (IE yes I get these are fine art paintings, I need to know if it is over 100 Years old). If you have a more specific field of items you handle, you could try a form to guide answers.

      There will always be push back from people who”know better”. The yelling is the worst part of the job in my opinion and often the only amusement from it is knowing just how wrong they are. Hope this helps and supply chain solidarity.

      1. Tradd*

        We handle a wide variety of goods. The people who think they know better, and yes, I am highly entertained when they are so wrong. Yesterday I was asked to get involved with a shipment my company only handles the transportation on (freight forwarder). The shipper had loaded some cargo into the container that couldn’t come into the US. The customer’s existing customs broker couldn’t figure out how to resolve the situation. I had the solution figured out in about 30 seconds. My manager put me on a phone call with customer and their existing broker. The existing broker couldn’t understand what I proposed for the solution, although she should have known. She made herself and her company (broker) look very bad and her company has now lost that customer’s business for customs clearance. My company has it all now. I had a good laugh afterward with my manager. That broker was so clueless.

    7. CubeFarmer*

      I don’t really understand this, but it sounds like items get individual 10-digit codes based on how the US classifies them. Could you send them the list of US 10-digit tariff codes and ask them to supply one?

      1. Tradd*

        They send us the 6 digit number (US code shares the same first 6 digit) and we respond with a screenshot from the US tariff for the section having the same first 6 digits. We then ask them to choose the appropriate one. Some of the overseas agents still argue that their 6 digit number is correct, even though they have a snip from the US tariff in front of them, showing that US codes have 10 digits. It’s absolutely ridiculous!

        2. Astor*

          One thing that sometimes helps in my job is making sure that I don’t sound like I’m correcting someone. I think this might be at play here.

          You might already be doing this, but for me it would be the difference between:
          “Thanks, but that’s the 6 digit EU code and we need the 10 digit US code”
          and
          “Thanks for the 6 digit code! For US Shipping we also need to add extra information or it will get stuck in customs; can you confirm which of these details best matches?

          (You’ll phrase it differently, but that’s the gist of the suggested change.)

          It might also be worth trying to get rid of the first six digits if you send them a screenshot to ask them for more information.

          But the idea is to make it sound as much as possible like you have ACCEPTED the 6 digit code, and also now they ALSO need to give you a 4 digit code and/or a description according to the other questions you ask. It’s irrelevant (to them) that it’s actually a 10 digit code and I think that’s making everyone fixate on the wrong pieces.

          I’m sorry you’re dealing with people yelling at you about this, and I hope you find a route that works!

      1. Bookworm*

        Literally just deal with it. We have a wide range of experience on AAM and it was worth asking how others handled similar situations.

    9. Square Root of Minus One*

      I used to work in the field (and I hope to go back because I loved it): government side though, and in the European Union.

      The EU uses a system called BTI (Binding Tariff Information). Every member state’s customs has a departement dedicated to that, and the Commission oversees the whole thing. The idea is to classify the goods in advance, before they leave. You – or your overseas agent, I’m not sure – submit a form to customs with a bunch of information, a sample of the goods or more info if they ask for it, and then they give you an official certificate confirming the tariff code. When the goods come to the border with the form, it’s normally quicker and easier.
      Do you have something like that in the US? If so, maybe you could suggest getting that certificate “just to make the passing of borders smoother, of course”.

      1. Bookworm*

        CBP has something called binding rulings for importers who are unsure what the classification should be. You submit a letter, with description of item (and photos as needed) and what you think the tariff number should be. CBP responds within 30 days advising what tariff number the importers needs to use when importing this specific product. They are required to use the same tariff number whenever they import this product, for however long they import it. But this is only for importers who need assistance classifying something. This is not done for every imported shipment.

  6. Mouse*

    I’m a new manager with one direct report. I have asked my report for feedback but he is struggling with this task. He knows how to give constructive feedback in terms of wording/tone etc (we are QC and he does this routinely with others) but what he says he is struggling with is coming up with things he thinks I could improve on. I’ve asked a peer to observe me and she had some helpful comments so I know there are things I could do better but he can’t come up with anything. We spoke about this at some length. I am taking him at his word that he feels comfortable giving me feedback he just doesn’t have anything to say. Does anyone have any resources for helping employees think critically about their managers and their own workload and what they need their managers to do better/differently? I’d like to be able to coach my employee on this but I’m at a loss at the moment.

    1. WellRed*

      I’d be so uncomfortable being pressured like this by my direct boss. Maybe back off and see if, over time, he develops some authentic feedback for you.

    2. ArlynPage*

      Your employee sounds like my husband; he HAAAAATES having to give feedback about other people. He’s comfortable addressing things as it comes up, but at some jobs he has had to do peer reviews every quarter and it was pure misery every time. If his manager had pressured him to give more feedback after he’s already said he’s comfortable coming to you when something comes up, I think he would leave his job. My recommendation — keep good communication open, meet regularly enough that he has opportunity to give feedback, but don’t add to his workload by having him write up even more feedback.

    3. calico*

      I’m trying to imagine how I would feel if my manager was badgering me for feedback on their performance – awkward at best. I would encourage you to continue to take him at his word and let him raise an issue in the future if one arises.

      1. Mouse*

        Would your advice change if it was clear the employee in question needed something from the manager they weren’t getting based on the employees performance? For example if I were to say, “you’re performance on X is slipping. I need Y from you going forward. What do you need from me to meet that goal?” (not the wording I would use necessarily but you get the gist). As I say, new manager, so I hear what you say about pressure for feedback. I’m just wondering if that only applies to a solid employee. This is his first job out of college and he has himself said critical thinking is a skill he wants to develop. So if I did need to address a performance issue I want to ensure he has the skills needed to do that. Our QC work is all matrix-based so doesn’t require independent analysis.

        1. WellRed*

          This feels like a separate issue and not what you were asking. If the employee needs some thing he’s not getting from his manager (you), and you know that, I’m unclear on what you are trying to accomplish.

        2. sdog*

          This seems to be an entirely different issue. If he’s not meeting a particular performance metric, and you are not sure that he has the skills to meet that metric, you can think about specific training he might need to meet that metric. But I’m not sure how that relates to him giving you feedback, as that still is not a performance metric in his position.

          I would focus on the metric, what skills/training might be helpful, and then offer that. But sometimes, there is nothing you can offer, and the reality is that sometimes employees don’t have the skills you need for them to be successful in the position, and at that point, you just need to be upfront and let them go.

        3. Nonsense*

          That’s a completely different scenario and question to what you asked. If he has a performance issue, you need to address that. Sure, you can and should ask if there’s something specific he needs from you in order to address said performance issue, but that’s not feedback – that’s trying to make sure your employee is adequately supported. And you should still be monitoring his performance regardless if he has a specific answer to check if things are improving or there’s something else causing the issue.

        4. Slow Gin Lizz*

          Help him develop critical thinking skills as it relates to his job and the duties he performs, not as it relates to you as a manager. I think that giving someone feedback on their job performance is a manager’s job and not an employee’s job; sort of how gifts should flow downward, so should most feedback. If you were a teacher, you wouldn’t expect your students to know how to tell you to improve your teaching, but you would expect the school principal would have some ideas. Same goes here, I would think.

        5. I should really pick a name*

          I wouldn’t consider that to be feedback.

          Performance slipping is pretty general. Try to be more specific.
          How is his performance slipping?
          For example: “Your last few reports have been turned in late. Is there something that makes it difficult to complete them in time?”. Have them tell you what’s causing the performance issue in their own words.

        6. Beth*

          His ability to hear feedback when you give it doesn’t have anything to do with his ability/willingness to give you feedback.

          It looks like you might be thinking “I need him to be able to analyze a situation and provide feedback on it–but I don’t have a good situation for him to practice that skill on right now–ok, he can analyze me and my performance.” But that doesn’t follow! You have direct power over him; giving feedback on you and your performance is way more fraught for him than analyzing what he needs to complete a goal. You’re drawing a connection between two things that aren’t the same.

        7. Joielle*

          Ooo, I don’t love this approach. If he’s told you he wants to improve his critical thinking skills, you can’t turn it around on him and ask him to give you feedback on how to help him. He doesn’t know, that’s why he’s asking you. What he needs from you is to help him figure out how to improve. You’re giving him a trick question.

          Come up with a few concrete suggestions (Training? Mentorship/shadowing someone who’s strong in those skills? Books he could read?) and see what he thinks.

        8. Potsie*

          No. If he has performance issues then that needs to be the focus of the conversation, not your performance. Point out his performance is slipping (with specific examples), ask for his perspective on the situation as well as what he needs in order to improve but don’t put the focus back on you.

        9. Observer*

          or example if I were to say, “you’re performance on X is slipping. I need Y from you going forward. What do you need from me to meet that goal?

          Do you not see that this is a totally different question to what you originally asked? It’s actually focused and potentially actionable. And it’s about how the employee gets from A to B or accomplishes X goal.

          I would tweak it a bit – I would ask “what do you need?” Because it may be that he needs something from you, but maybe something else.

        10. Peanut*

          oh, when I was struggling at a job I heard this a lot from the company. What do you need from us? I had no idea what to ask for. if I knew what I needed, I probably would have sought it out and resolved the issue. this is a case of “you don’t know, what you don’t know”.
          the resource that comes to mind is to see if your EAP (if you have one), does management consults. or otherwise seek out consult from a third party.

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      When I had to participate in a 360 review of my boss, they asked us the following questions:

      – what should Boss start doing?
      – what should Boss stop doing?
      – what is boss already doing that they should continue doing?

      I don’t think it will necessarily get you the info you’re looking for because providing critical feedback to your boss is just not something most people want to do, but at least the “stop/start/continue” format allows for them to acknowledge the good parts of your management, which can make it easier to share the negative feedback.

    5. Glazed Donut*

      Can you provide some scaffolding? As in, give an area (“I’d like some feedback on my communication”) and then ask if the method is correct, timely, clear, etc… I’d also offer your own stories about how you’ve received and applied feedback in the past (“A few years ago I was told that my teams messages that only contain one word were received poorly, so I’ve been working on writing complete sentences/thoughts before sending”).
      Is there a reason you’re pressing so hard for feedback at this moment in time?

    6. sdog*

      I don’t know, it seems to me that you are focusing too much on this. It’s not part of his job to give you constructive feedback. It sounds like the feedback he’s required to provide as part of his job (to others) is part of his job and he’s doing that well.

      As a subordinate forced to speak “at length” to my manager about giving him feedback, I’d honestly be pretty off. I think your best course would be to make sure you are an approachable manager generally, let your report know that you welcome feedback anytime (which you have), and then you know, just drop it. This isn’t a test where he has to come up with areas for you to work on.

    7. CheerfulGinger*

      I think requesting feedback from your direct report is a good thing, but it sounds like you are putting a lot of responsibility on him to help you become a good manager. My suggestion would be to keep the lines of communication open with your direct report through monthly (or more frequent if that makes sense) 1:1 meetings. But it is up to you to develop your skills as a manager and more appropriate for you to ask for help from peers (like you did!) and your own managers and mentors.

      I have seen resources about “Managing Up” or “Managing in All Directions”, but those resources are about leveling up the skills of junior staff for their own career growth. I would recommend to you “The First 90 Days”.

    8. Nonsense*

      Are you actually interested in authentic feedback or are you interested in being able to say “my employees give me feedback!”? Given that you’re trying to foist additional material onto him so you can get the magical feedback you want rather than accepting the feedback he’s already given you, you’re not really strengthening your case; you’re just being pushy and overbearing.

      The way you get good feedback is to be a good listener, support your staff, and trust them to speak up if there is a problem. Hounding people for more feedback because you don’t like their answers achieves the exact opposite effect.

    9. Cookie Monster*

      When you say you’re a new manager, how long have you been this report’s manager? It might be too new for him to really have a big picture idea of what he needs from you. Or if he’s very young he might not have a lot of experience with different managers and therefore doesn’t have a very big frame of reference to draw from.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Sounds like he’s very new, from another comment on this thread, and I agree with you that because he’s so new and doesn’t have a good frame of reference from previous managers, he probably hasn’t any idea what he should be asking for.

    10. Slow Gin Lizz*

      I think you can leave this alone. I don’t see a situation where a manager absolutely needs to have feedback on their performance from their direct report. You’ve done good telling him you’d like feedback from him and presumably he’d feel comfortable giving it to you if he had any. I wouldn’t bother sending him any resources about how to think critically about his manager; I’m sure he can think critically (as evidenced by the feedback he gives others) and sending him resources about that is probably an overstep on your part. Not to offend, Mouse, but it also sends a message of insecurity to him. Which, fine, as a new manager of course you have insecurities, but it’s probably best not to telegraph that to your report. Asking your peer for advice is a great idea; keep doing that (within reason) and I think you’ll get a lot of help that way.

      Aside from all that, even though of course you want to improve your management skills, you both have jobs to do. I don’t think you should ask him to spend time reviewing those resources and coming up with feedback for you instead of doing his job tasks. As he focuses on his job tasks and you continue managing him, any feedback he has for you will come naturally. And it could entirely be a situation where if he focuses specifically on “what feedback can I give the boss?” he would be at a loss but he might be in the middle of a work task or project and suddenly be like, “oh, I would be better able to do this task if boss would do X instead of Y.”

      And as other comments on this thread say, if you have annual reviews you likely will or need to include a question for him on what you can do to be a better manager for him. I think that’s probably all you need at this point.

    11. Fluff*

      This can be so difficult for people who are under you. I get it – I wish I could get feedback as well. The risk to them though is very high if the feedback is not well received and that overrides any of the good.

      One way to encourage feedback is to pick a very specific safe (or safer) thing for that feedback. Ask him to help you with wording on a policy. Make sure it is authentic though and not a practice project for giving feedback.

      Also demonstrate you taking feedback – “Hey, I learned that I XXX so I am trying this to improve on that. Please let me know if XX is helping me be more clear about ___.” Keep it casual and then move on.

    12. Pay no attention...*

      See if he can give feedback about department issues in general rather than you directly… what are the workflow bottlenecks — if anything is along the line of lack of communication, bad policy or not enforcing a policy, unclear goals or overwhelming goals… those are management problems. I’m guessing he’s used to giving feedback on “words and tone” rather than the person who wrote it. He might feel more comfortable taking the personal critique of YOU out of the conversation if he can evaluate general workflow.

    13. Beth*

      I’m guessing the problem here isn’t that he can’t give feedback in general, but that the power dynamic of giving feedback to your boss is throwing him off.

      Why do you need feedback from him specifically? It’s always good to be open to feedback from your team, of course, but that means that you have to be ready to listen, not that they have to be ready to share. I wouldn’t generally consider a team member not giving feedback as a ‘struggle’ point or something they need to be coached on. That feels a lot like pressure, and I don’t understand the urgency when you seem to have peers you can get feedback from as well.

    14. Goddess47*

      Along with the others, I agree that you should start low-key. Pick ONE thing your peer recommended and ask about it. “Ludmilla says I need to do [action] better/different. I’m making an effort but if I slip, I’m asking you to feel free to remind me that I need to change.”

      Then don’t ask again for months. Six months. While feedback from an employee is useful, your direct report either doesn’t see any egregious problems or doesn’t want to say. Don’t push.

      Good luck!

    15. Rex Libris*

      Nobody is going to tell their boss things they think they could do better. Just in general, you’re supposed to be the one evaluating their performance, not the other way around. It’s going to strike most people as awkward and loaded with potential to backfire on them.

      You’d probably get a better response turning it around and asking if they feel there is any way you can better support them in their work.

    16. HonorBox*

      I would either stop asking at the moment or ask in a way that is different. While feedback from a direct report is good and helpful, it seems like you’re making this a task that he needs to complete no matter what. And while you say you’re taking him at his word, you’re writing in asking, so it seems like you aren’t.

      If you have regular chats, you may need to adjust how you’re following up on things he says to get him to share more. Ask a follow up or two and really hear him out. It might not be as simple as “Hey Mouse, I find that when you put together an Excel, your formula could be written in a more succinct way and it would save you some time” but there may be something he says that you can dive deeper on either in the moment or in a future conversation.

      If you are asking a direct report for what could be seen as negative feedback, you’re putting him in a really tough spot. That’s far different than asking a peer or your manager for feedback. First, a peer or manager may have a much better idea of how you should be operating. Second, this really isn’t his job.

      If you really want open and honest feedback, I’d first stop asking him for it. You seem to be putting a lot of pressure on him to provide this. Then I’d ask differently. Ask open ended questions that are slightly more specific than “what could I improve on?” Things like “are there ways you’d prefer manager communicate about work tasks” or “are there areas where you could use additional support from manager” or things along those lines.

    17. Tio*

      You’re asking someone who is not a manager to know how to improve your management; that’s not going to work. Find other managers with more experience, like your peer, and get their opinions instead. Yes, the employee can give feedback and you should welcome it, but you shouldn’t be solely relying on them to tell you how to manage. Otherwise why don’t they just do the management?

    18. Katie*

      This is giving me nightmares back to my boss when I started out many years ago. She badgered me and badgered me to provide feedback. I finally did and then she was pissy about said feedback. I have 100% succeeded in my role without directly giving my managers feedback to their faces.

      Stop badgering him. This is not critical for his role.

    19. Double A*

      I’m really confused by your goals here. You want to coach your employee on how to think critically about your performance so he can give you feedback about how to improve? You want *him* to identify where *you* can improve? How is that his job?

      What you can do is both tell him you are open to feedback, and also demonstrate you are open to it. I’d start by asking HIM about his preferences, and then show him you’re listening by respecting that. So you might ask him things like:

      1. How do you prefer to hear feedback?
      2. How do you prefer to receive instruction?
      3. Are there any processes or practices you have noticed in the scope of your job that could use improving?

      That last question leaves him open to provide general feedback to you, and then you SHOW him you’re open to feedback by following up on his suggestions.

    20. Bike Walk Barb*

      Go to Management Center and read their feedback advice and forms. They have a structure that asks you to reflect on your own performance and identify something you think you handled well and something you would change in the future in your work with your direct report. This will give him examples of the level of detail and topic as a starting point and it’s good for you to have to do this internal work and model it.

      This structure has helped me recognize things like “I automatically did something that has been my responsibility instead of waiting for you to handle it since you’re now the lead on that. I’m going to watch for my jumping-in reflex on XYZ topic and will count on you to handle it without me saying anything until and unless you want my counsel.”

    21. Observer*

      Does anyone have any resources for helping employees think critically about their managers and their own workload and what they need their managers to do better/differently? I’d like to be able to coach my employee on this but I’m at a loss at the moment.

      You are asking the wrong question here. This is *not his job*. Yes, it may be to his benefit to him to think about this stuff. But it is *not* his job to do it *for you*. You need figure this out yourself or with the help of your peers and management.

      Of course, make sure that you are really making it clear that he (or any employee) can come to you with issues and ideas. And if you realize that something may be an issue, and you need to ask your employee about it, you want to be able to be confident that you’ll get an honest answer.

      But *your* development as a manager is absolutely not his job.

    22. RagingADHD*

      Why is it his job to tell you how to do your job better?

      Is he a manager? How is he even supposed to know how you can be a better manager if he doesn’t understand your job?

      Why aren’t you asking *your* manager for coaching? They are the one with management experience.

    23. I wear my sunglasses at night*

      Hmm
      I don’t love this. If you have concerns about his performance, talk to him about that. Badgering him about “now you critique ME” has nothing to do with that.

  7. AJ*

    What would you do if a superior invited himself to an event and inserted divisive political content into a slide deck, for children?

    A colleague is an engineer, female, who presented at a local elementary school STEM day recently as part of her paid volunteer day. The site supervisor, male, found out she was doing it and asked to review her slide deck and attend the event. She complied and the supervisor made edits to the slide deck. He attended the event with her. This person inserted a photo of himself and the previous divisive US president and Vice President in the middle of her slide deck and didn’t tell her! She found out when she got to that slide! She was obviously mortified. The children laughed, which is amusing for different reasons. Luckily for everyone for lots of reasons the supervisor isn’t around anymore. But what should she have done? When he asked to review the deck, before hand, at the time?

    1. A Poster Has No Name*

      I don’t think she could have said no to him on the review (I’m assuming site supervisor means he’s in some sort of supervisory role to her) but she probably should have reviewed his changes before going live. Then she could have tried to talk him out of the unnecessary and divisive photo and/or at least been prepared to skip on past it as quickly as possible.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        This! And I would remove the slide (after sending it to HR). Unless it were relevant to the presentation, it doesn’t belong there.

      2. Observer*

        Then she could have tried to talk him out of the unnecessary and divisive photo and/or at least been prepared to skip on past it as quickly as possible.

        I don’t know that I would have gone that far. Yes, I would send it to HR as @Charlotte Lucas suggests. But I would not have used his edits unless he has absolute authority over the work.

    2. Tio*

      Did he send her the final version? Did she look at what he edited before she ran it? That was probably the time to do something, and would have been easier to play off like “Oh looks like I might have run the unedited one” if she didn’t want to address it directly (or felt unsafe doing so), or tell him directly that she didn’t think politics should be in a children’s presentation and removed that slide if she did feel comfortable with it.

      If he was the one running the deck and/or didn’t show her his edits beforehand, she probably did everything right here, although in the future if she’s running it I definitely WOULD ask to see the final version, even without political issues, because what if he had added something else that was fine but she wasn’t prepared to talk about or didn’t know enough about or didn’t know when to hand off?

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Yeah, I think independent of *what* he inserted, if someone sends you back an edited slide deck then you need to review it to see what changes they made. Most people aren’t going to insert a photo like this, but maybe they’ll change a chart on slide 6 or a headline on slide 12 and if you’re giving the presentation, you’ll want to know about that change ahead of time.

        I think in this case, if he didn’t tell her he had edited it, I probably would have just used my original deck instead of downloading the one I assumed was the one I already had, which would have circumvented the issue of the photo showing up, but may have introduced a new issue of the boss asking where his photo was.

        1. Observer*

          Yeah, I think independent of *what* he inserted, if someone sends you back an edited slide deck then you need to review it to see what changes they made.

          Exactly. It doesn’t excuse him, but she really put herself into a sticky situation.

          1. Chocolate Covered Cotton*

            How did she “put herself” in this situation? The situation is that someone with authority over her whom she should have been able to trust chose to fool her and publicly humiliate her rather than have a professional conversation. This is victim blaming.

            1. Observer*

              This is victim blaming.

              Nope. He’s a jerk. But she failed to follow one of the most basic rules around presentations and your documents. Which is that you *always* check a document that someone else has edited before using it. Not because you should expects nefarious behavior. But stuff happens. People make mistakes etc.

              It’s like someone leaves their car unlocked in a high crime area. That makes them an idiot. And if someone asks “What could I have done differently?” I would say “Lock your car door.”. At the same time, I would still expect the police to try to arrest the thief, and I would most certainly not want any judge or jury to accept “But they left their car door open” as a “reason” or excuse. Both things can be true at the same time.

    3. CherryBlossom*

      It’s always tricky when it’s a superior behaving badly!

      Ideally, she would’ve reviewed the slides after he made the edits but before the presentation and asked him why he included those photos. But if approaching him that directly would’ve been too difficult for whatever reason, maybe she could’ve gone to someone above him, or at his level. Again, it’s hard to know without the dynamics, but she was in a tricky spot no matter what for sure.

      1. I'll have the blue plate special, please.*

        Yes, I think she took his review and edits in good faith and would not suspect anything inappropriate or malicious. She should talk to higher management and/or HR and send them all the related documentation (her original version and his modified version) because he deliberately put her in an uncomfortable situation.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Yikes. Hindsight is 20-20, but I would say she should have cut this off as early as possible. There were several off-ramps.
      1) It’s a volunteer event, boss shouldn’t have been involved to begin with. Your colleague wasn’t going to share trade secrets with 10-year-olds.
      2) Even if he’s going to review the slides because of some concerns like that, that’s all he should have done – review. Not edit, not insert. Your colleague should have kept control of the content and done a final review.
      3) Why on earth did he insist on attending? Is he also taking his paid volunteer day for this, or is he just being a sexist jerk about the whole thing?

    5. Mouse*

      That is appalling behaviour on the part of the supervisor. It shouldn’t be necessary, but if she shares resources like this in future, maybe check through them again before the event to make sure they are as intended. Depending on the context she might be able to make a pointed joke of it, “Ah, I see Bob decided to make an unexpected contribution to the slide deck. Moving on.” Said in a wry, not overly sarcastic tone. It’s generally just awkward and very bad judgement for the supervisor to a) include political content and b) make amendments to someone’s resources without asking/telling them.

    6. BellaStella*

      Dude wtf.
      I would be super angry but also I always check my slides and do not allow others to edit them.
      I would go to his boss too and explain why this is so messed up and could harm the organization’s reputation too. I really cannot stand these kind of jerks.

    7. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      On her part, ideally, she would have reviewed his edits. That’s just good practice in general.

      But that she didn’t doesn’t mean it’s on her that the supervisor threw in a personal photo. That’s just bizarro on his part. Like, if she were pressed for time and didn’t have a chance to review, she should be able to trust that any supervisor revisions that appeared on the slides would be consistent with the purpose of the presentation, and not random weird shennanigans.

    8. Pay no attention...*

      So it was just a photo of him for no reason? I would laugh at the silliness and do nothing more, “Hahahahahaha…. good Easter Egg Fergus! …and onto the next real slide” I always assume people like that are looking for a Big Reaction and if you don’t, they have no power.

    9. LizB*

      When he asked, depending on the relationship, I think I might have asked why he wanted to review the deck. Unless it’s routine for supervisors to check over this kind of work, I’d want to know if there was something in particular he wanted to be sure I included. (Or at least that’s how I’d phrase it, instead of just saying “uhhh why???”)

      After getting the slides back, in an ideal world, I would have reviewed them. At the very least I’d want to do one run-through before it’s go time just to catch any errors I may have made, and if I was aware my supervisor made edits, I’d want to see what those were so I knew how to cover the material in its new form.

      The photo being of a divisive political figure is almost not even relevant, imo. It would have been equally unprofessional if the photo were of the supervisor holding up an impressive fish he caught, or a photo of fall leaves, or anything else not related to the talk. The problem here is really that the supervisor messed with her slides.

    10. One of the many librarians*

      My workplace uses Google’s office suite and it’s easy to provide a link with view and comment privileges, not editing privileges.

    11. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I always checked each page of a file that someone had altered, in case they made any mistake. I hadn’t thought of them adding an ego slide :)

      If I found something irrelevant/offensive like this on a slide, then I’d just have added “Hide Slide”, so it wouldn’t be shown in the presentation – and I wouldn’t have told him.
      Most unlikely he’d stop the presentation to ask where his photo is.
      If he really was that silly and did so, then I’d return any embarassment to sender: I’d say I thought he accidentally put an inappropriate photo in, so I hid it – he probably wouldn’t want to continue discussing an inappropriate photo in front of a teacher and all the kids.

      1. Observer*

        I always checked each page of a file that someone had altered, in case they made any mistake. I hadn’t thought of them adding an ego slide :)

        Exactly. It’s just good practice to check. It’s perfectly reasonable to not expect this kind of nonsense, but routine checking for good faith errors would have caught it.

        I do a lot of work on resiliency planning. One thing I talk about is a guy whose telecom line got eaten through by anteaters. Yes, really, ant eaters. That’s not really something someone can be expected to plan for. But if you plan on having a second telecom line elsewhere, or using a wireless technology because you’re worried about development or street repairs taking out your primary line, the nice side effect is that you get a fall back when the ant eaters show up.

    12. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      If I wanted to play it very safe, then as soon as I spotted the photo during my review, I’d have gone to my grandboss saying I was worried about the reputational damage to our org.

      It is so important to thoroughly review a file / track changes that someone has modified, so you aren’t caught off-guard while actually presenting and have time to think what to do.

    13. jasmine*

      paid volunteer days aren’t a part of her job duties, right? at the companies I’ve worked for, they’ve been more of a perk (“take a day off to volunteer for something you care about, if you like”)

      if that’s the case, I think she had bearing to tell her supervisor that she wanted to do the presentation alone. if she was genuinely happy for him to tag along, then she probably should have checked the slide deck beforehand to see what he edited. but if she just thought he was adding an intro slide, then it makes sense that she didn’t

      in the moment, I don’t know if there was anything she could have done. except maybe make a discrete apology to the teachers/school principal after the fact

    14. Bike Walk Barb*

      Even though he’s gone, this feels like something she should take to HR. First, so it’s part of the record that he did something like this in case anyone ever tries to rehire him. Second, so they can consider whether they need to put some guardrails or guidelines around the paid volunteer day system so this doesn’t happen to other people and so supervisors don’t think they’re empowered to do this.

    15. Observer*

      . But what should she have done? When he asked to review the deck, before hand, at the time?

      She should have either used the original of the deck, or checked to see if he made any edits, if she had to use the exact same file that he looked at for some reason.

      He’s a jerk, but she’s sloppy.

    16. Seashell*

      This sounds like something so odd that it’s almost certainly not going to happen again, so no need to worry about it.

  8. Hazel*

    I am currently in a temp role, hoping to transition to permanent. This required a full advertisement and interview process (U.S. government, for context). I interviewed on Tuesday. The panel was comprised of my boss and several coworkers, along with one person from an adjacent department whom I once met in passing. I very much want to remain in this role, and I spent a lot of time on my application and interview prep.

    Here’s my question: I’m neurodivergent and struggle with e-mail anxiety, so I haven’t sent out any thank-you notes yet, even though I’ve been agonizing over it since the interview. I am aware of the standard advice to send thank-you notes within 24 hours. At this point, is it too late?

    I did thank the panel profusely at the end of the interview — and most of these are folks I work closely with on a daily basis, so sending a formal thank-you strikes me as a bit contrived. That said, I don’t want to come off as unprofessional if the expectation is that I do send each interviewer a note. Should I still do it, even though it’s been three days? Or should I let it go?

    1. ArlynPage*

      I think you should just send a quick thank you; there’s no downside, and I think 3 days is acceptable. You can get an idea from ChatGPT or a template online, but I would send something like:
      “Hello,
      I just wanted to send a note to thank you for taking the time this week to speak with me about the permanent role. Talking through the role with you has only increased my enthusiasm, and I can’t wait for the opportunity to contribute to the goal of ______!
      I also wanted to send out the article about ____ I referenced in the interview, in case you wanted to take a look. I look forward to the next steps in the interview process.
      Best regards,
      Hazel”

    2. Scott*

      I have interviewed for internal positions twice over the last several years (also federal gov.) and knew everyone on the interview panel well. In one case the two senior interviewers (both SES) had been my direct boss at some point in the past. I don’t think in this case you need to send “thank you” emails for the interview.
      Your agency may have a much different culture about that than mine, so it might be worth asking some of your current colleagues for their opinion.

    7. SansaStark*

      Sometimes when I have email “send” anxiety, I set the email to go out a little later. Usually something like 10 or 15 minutes — enough time to change it if I have a weird epiphany a few minutes after “sending” it. I agree with the comments above – it’s not too late to send this now.

      1. Fluff*

        Try and send a note.

        * Sometimes writing a rough draft by hand can help. Use the scripts and add your touch. Short. If your email anxiety is like mine – ADHD + autism, the ( ) and [ ] can look like a derivative equation in a text paragraph. Keep it short. 3-5 sentences like Arlynpage.

        * Do not fill in the too box until
        – you scheduled the send.
        – spell and grammar check.
        – then send.

        Now it is a few hours later – enjoy that feeling of sent. And it is ok, your brain worked hard on these. It is ok if your brain is on low level braining for the rest of the day.

    9. Seashell*

      Government hiring is notoriously slow, so I don’t think 3 days vs. 1 day is going to matter at all, and I doubt your co-workers/boss would mind receiving a brief and pleasant e-mail.

    10. AnotherLibrarian*

      One of the big fears with internal hires when I’ve been on interview panels is how they might handle rejection, so I would recommend sending the email today. It’s not too late and the more formal you can be about the process, the more it shows you care and you understand it’s a process. I think others have offered good advice on what to say, but remember- it doesn’t have to be long.

      I’d personalize it a little to each person and seriously, ChatGPT is really good for this sort of thing.

    11. RedinSC*

      Unless the job is actually doing a lot of things like thanking people or acknowledging people for their work for you you have to. But it’s nice.

      I was just part of a panel where all the candidates were internal. We got 1 thank you email from the 5 candidates we interviewed. So, it’s not really super needed. It doesn’t count for or against anyone.

      ALso, local government. Best of luck!

    12. Hazel*

      And they’re sent! Thanks to all for your insight and support. (SansaStark, I used your 15-minute delay tip. It helped a lot!)

  9. ArlynPage*

    I am (hopefully) likely to be offered a role at an academic institution. I have worked for 20+ years in industry but am excited for this new role, however, I am getting the sense that there is no room for negotiation when it comes to salary + benefits. I have always felt really strongly about negotiating an offer (especially as a woman) and feel like I should try to negotiate *something*, but the role is funded by a grant and there is no salary range–it just is what it says on the tin. It is lower than I could find elsewhere, but the benefits are amazing and the name recognition of the institution would be a good stepping stone for future job searching, so I am willing to accept what they are (hopefully) offering.

    1. Jessica*

      Good luck! Public or private institution? The latter likely has more freedom to negotiate. If you can’t get more money, is there something else you want that maybe you can get? PTO, WFH, office, parking, new computer, relocation money… ?

      1. RedinSC*

        At a public university the benefits would not be negotiable, those are what they are.

        YOu can often negotiate a salary, but on a grant funded role, you might not be able to.

    2. Marina Rose*

      Good luck! I work in grants management at a research university. Usually if there isn’t a range listed, it will just be the flat salary offered. A lot of times in proposals the exact salary is budgeted for and there isn’t wiggle room. It is worth asking if there is a range for the salary, or if it is just the salary listed. The worst they can do is say the salary is not negotiable, and it seems like you’re already prepared for that as a possible outcome.

    4. M2*

      A close family member works at an Ivy and when hired there was no negotiation and when they have been promoted 3x there was hardly any negotiation. It was basically take it or leave it. Literally. It was all about parity and equity, so that is the norm from what I heard.

      This same person was able to go to bat for a new team member and get them $5k more for salary but it wasn’t grant funded. Grant funded things usually have strict rules on salary from the funders. I think it’s fine to ask for a little more, but know they might not budge and say it in a way where they won’t go to the second choice. I have heard people just straight up going to second choice based on how someone tried to negotiate salary (demanding, being rude).

      1. ArlynPage*

        This is helpful, thank you– the role I’m pursuing is also at an Ivy and the pay is the only thing I’m less than ecstatic about. I certainly wouldn’t be rudely negotiating, but just trying to think of less strictly constrained benefits that might have some wiggle room.

    5. Jessica N*

      Hi, academic here who was hired on a salary that proved very non-negotiable! (Public institution
      You could ask for things like:
      a one-time moving stipend
      technology purchases (whatever is purchased would be owned by the institution, obviously, but would make your work easier)
      increased conference travel/professional development funding
      a course-release or other reduction to your workload

      These are likely to come out of other funding streams that your department has, instead of out of the grant itself.

      2. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

        This is the way. In higher ed, there’s rarely wiggle room on salary, but if you can get things that aren’t tied to salary but are still benefits to you, they can get those through other funding sources they may have. An Ivy will probably have the best ability to do this, as they’re more likely to have multiple large funds.

    6. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      From my experience in higher ed there is no negotiation. I know from my experience all the roles are set by the board of regents and the legislature (State university) and they cannot change a salary for one person based on the role. You may be able to negotiate other things like vacation time or WFH or your hours. But salary is usually not a thing.
      I will add, that although my salary was more at my last job then when I started at my university I was actually taking home more because the health insurance benefits costs were extremely cheap, by 50% or more.

      I have also been on hiring committees and have explained to candidates if they asked. We have never held it against anyone for asking about salary. So I would say it doesn’t hurt to ask.

    7. Rex Libris*

      In the public institutions I’ve worked at (public libraries and community colleges) the salary was the salary. Starting salaries were ranked according job level and they were also made public. You didn’t get to negotiate, but there was also far more transparency.

    8. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      For grant-funded positions (or soft money) there often less negotiating room. Some possibilities would be equipment purchases or professional development funds (training or conferences).

    9. Justme, The OG*

      I’m in my sixth position in higher education and the only time I was able to negotiate salary was my current position. In my previous one I negotiated for some flex time (before COVID when it was not common at my university).

    10. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      Will you need assistance doing whatever the grant funds, and do you have the time / energy to train and supervise student employees to assist with that? I’m curious if you could negotiate for a certain number of undergrad or graduate assistants since the funding for their pay can often come from elsewhere in the department or university. (I’m thinking of all the student employees in the college library where I once worked. Their pay came entirely from federal work study.)

    11. Blue Pen*

      I work in higher education—private—and while no one has told me I can’t negotiate my salary, it’s not exactly encouraged. The only time you really have leverage here is when you’re an external candidate; otherwise, you might get $5K more for yourself than what you were hoping, but that’s kind of the limit. That’s not across the board necessarily, but in my experience (and everyone I’ve spoken with who moves jobs here), that’s the deal.

      That said, I do feel like I’m paid fairly for what I do. Do I want more? Always. But I’m not struggling, and the benefits more than make up for what I would be earning in a corporate setting. So, it’s annoying, yes, but it’s more of an itch I can’t reach than an actual issue.

  10. my cat is prettier than me*

    I’m an Office Manager at a manufacturing company of just under 50 people. I had a Professional Development meeting with my boss (Head of HR and Administration) on Wednesday. He expressed concern that our C-Suite (which is one person at the moment) doesn’t see value in my role. My boss said that I act as more of an Admin Assistant and needs me to show more leadership skills and be more “visible.”

    I was honestly shocked. I definitely provide value. I schedule everyone’s travel, schedule all phone screens and interviews, organize lunches, do expense reports, check in visitors, lead the culture team, and so much more. Employees express their appreciation for me very often. Some of them even call me Queen [Name].

    I rarely take time off, and when I do, I keep up with email and Slack. I also check these on evenings and weekends. I’ve been working my butt off recently (almost to the point of burn out) and I’m feeling super demoralized. I don’t know what to do.

    1. Jessica*

      From what he said, it sounds like your leadership does not value admin support, which puts them squarely into “your boss is terrible and probably won’t change” territory. :-(

      I’m so sorry. One thing you might consider is to stop working on your time off/evenings/weekends. Let them see your value when you’re not there. And maybe use the time on your job search.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I agree! This is certainly one of those thing that when you do a good job no one notices but when you don’t do a good job everyone notices.

        OP are you part of any organizations. I recommend the American Society of administrative professionals there is a free membership and a paid membership that gives you a few extra perks. There are articles and such that can help you show your boss what good you do, or help you find a new job.

        Have you asked them what they expect from you? like clearly laid out plans not just wishy washy “leadership and be visible” stuff.
        I also agree that you need to stop working on your off time and you should try to take a vacation.

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        Agreed. If you’re doing all this and still no one sees your value? Let them see what happens when the person who’s doing at least two employees’ worth of work decides to value herself and her time.

        1. Rainy*

          I left my recent job where there was a lot of “well it can’t be that hard, it used to take two people and now Rainy does it all” and they have suddenly realized that in fact Rainy was a force of nature and distributing my work amongst a different group of a dozen people (*distributing* what I used to do solo across *twelve* people who do basically the same thing I did but at a much less complicated level and with fewer overall responsibilities so more, or at least some, extra capacity) resulted in everyone else being fully booked until the end of October when I heard about it week before last. A week after my formal leaving date they had already gotten approval to backfill my role–the quickest they’d backfilled any role in recent memory is 9 months, and from what I hear they are scrambling to get someone in in record time, which means the backups are just going to keep rolling.

          Oh, and given all of that they’re almost certainly going to make a bad hire–my job requires a graduate degree for a bunch of really good reasons but they’re having trouble hiring people with graduate degrees to do the insane amount of work for the pittance they want to pay, so they’ve dropped the qualifications dramatically over the last few years for similar jobs and made several bad hires as a result.

          So yes, step back, stop being connected after hours and on weekends, take some real vacations, and look for a new job.

    2. WellRed*

      For starters, stop being so connected to work all the time. That’s not showing leadership but it’s a fast way to burn out. Unfortunately, while I think you are a valuable employee, your tasks do seem very administrative assistant, not leading. It would be helpful if your boss gave you some actual feedback you could act upon. Can you identify areas, like the culture team, that need someone like you to take the lead in?

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        I would love to do more with the culture team (and culture in general), but we have no budget and no one (including my boss) ever shows up to meetings. Last year I tried to start a DEI initiative, but 1. No one was interested, and 2. Our CEO was voted out by the board, and we went around a year without any in-house leadership for a year. I also led a Lunch and Learn about the LGBT community last summer, but that was before my boss started.

    3. londonedit*

      Definitely take the time off you’re entitled to, and don’t check your email when you’re off! Firstly because that’s not a healthy way to live, and secondly because maybe the C-suite will start to appreciate what you do if things aren’t just automatically done all the time without them noticing.

      I think that’s probably part of the problem – you’re good at what you do, so everything just happens, and they don’t really have cause to think about who’s making it happen or how much work goes into it. In terms of being more ‘visible’, please don’t interpret that as ‘I need to be physically in the office more’. I’d take it to mean that you could maybe be more proactive about letting people know what you’re doing – is there a regular email you could send to remind people about how to book travel or reminding them of the process for expenses? Can you make a bigger deal of sending round the expense reports? Or once a month maybe email round asking for any upcoming lunches so you can prepare? Something like that? It might seem unnecessary to you, but if the C-suite have you regularly emailing them with X and Y updates/reminders, then they might see that you’re all over everything that’s happening. And it might go some way to show those leadership skills, if they can see you taking ownership of tasks and making sure things are done properly.

      1. Bike Walk Barb*

        Some of these feel like reminders that you’re providing admin support, though, like the lunch prep, so it isn’t reinforcing the Manager part of the title. I’d make these notes about things you manage that keep the office running smoothly.

        If you can say something like “I’m reviewing our office inventory of supplies and equipment and planning the year’s purchasing. This is your reminder that all requests need to be submitted by XYZ date using this form (link). We’ll be updating the printer that no longer has toner supplies available; the new one will be installed next Monday.” then you’re in charge of making sure something gets done and demonstrating higher-level skills. They don’t have to worry about outdated printers and having supplies in the closet–you’re on it.

    4. Paint N Drip*

      Admin work is so devalued, sorry you’re going through this! Unfortunately being an office manager without other admin staff can just seem like you’re an overpaid admin (if your leadership doesn’t value admin work, like it seems is the case).
      I wonder if they’re looking for more planning/forward-thinking from you? Is there a breakdown of communication where they’re expecting you to act like a COO? (in your defense, I feel like most places that might have such a breakdown of communication ALSO wouldn’t really give you the access/tools to act like the COO so it’s just a BS situation all around)

    5. CubeFarmer*

      I would stop checking in during vacations, and let them see what happens when you’re not around. “I’m fully unplugging this time, so please don’t ping unless there is a literal fire.”

    6. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Oh, Queen Name, I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I second what others have said here and suggest you take more time off. Can you take a full week or do a long weekend? Even if you just stay home and watch TV (which I support as totally valid, btw), by completely unplugging from the job for a bit might give you more insight on your next steps. Plan the vacation for a few weeks from now so you can fully train someone on how to take over while you’re out, and let that person see how difficult it is and/or let leadership see how valuable you really are by being absent for awhile.

      But I agree with Jessica that it sounds like your boss is terrible and isn’t going to change. If your boss weren’t terrible, they would have absolutely told the C-level person about all the things you do and how extremely valuable you are to the company. So of course the C-level is a problem, but your boss sounds like a bigger problem.

      CAN you find a new job? Because I’d bet there are a lot of companies out there looking for a competent admin/office manager like you, many of whom wouldn’t ask you to work nights and weekends and would value you as an employee.

        1. Slow Gin Lizz*

          Yay!! Best of luck, I just did a job search and it took several months. It’s a lot but was absolutely worth it.

        2. Mulligatawney*

          If you’ve just applied to jobs this week, the chances of you hearing back by now are slim to none! Read through Alison’s materials on job hunting.

          Finding a new job takes time. If a company posts a job opening, they often don’t start looking over resumes for a few days or more. It’s common to take a week or two (or more) for the applicant to hear anything back.

          Sadly I think your bosses devalue what you do. You’re so efficient they don’t notice things getting done. And they probably think that everyone can do their own expense reports, book their own travel, schedule phone screens, etc. etc.

          And please STOP working evenings and weekends. Stop checking Slack and email when you’re not in the office. Take time off. Unfortunately bosses like yours won’t appreciate all the things you do until you have left for a new job.

          Start documenting all the things you do for your job- this will be useful as you look for another position. It will also be a good way for you to counter your boss’s comment that your job is not needed, especially if you suspect they’re going to eliminate your position and you’ll be laid off. “Boss, here is a description of all my duties. How will these tasks be handled if you eliminate my position?”

        3. Rainy*

          When my former workplace started turning into a dumpster fire full of bees, I started applying. I wasn’t as rigorous about it as I might have been, but I applied fairly steadily to jobs that were a good fit or a slight stretch in specific kinds of institutions in one very specific area of the country (as we were looking to move). It took me two years but I landed somewhere great. Things at my old job, which was already heading downhill, started really picking up speed about three months ago and by then I was already in final interviews with my new job. The best time to start looking for a new job was yesterday, but the second best time is now. Set aside the time after work or on weekends when you’d usually be continuing to work and instead look for postings and do some research on orgs in your area (or your preferred area) and start networking. The average job search takes 6-9 months. You’re not going to hear anything one way or another on any job for weeks, best case scenario, so it’s not going to be enough to apply to a few jobs and then wait to hear about them, lather, rinse, repeat. You have to get the whole machine moving with regular twice-weekly checks of likely sites/boards, regular applications, regular outreach to your network or possible new connections.

    7. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      WOW. First of all, remind yourself that there are PLENTY of companies that would absolutely value your skills and don’t let this poison you against yourself. That’s just a downward spiral.

      In the immediate term, I would document all the things you do and present that to your boss, and ask for specifics of what you should be doing differently/better. HOLD YOUR BOSS TO THIS. “I need examples of where I can demonstrate ‘more leadership’ and look ‘more visible’ so I know I’m focusing on the right things.”

      Longer term, maybe you do need to leave and find a place that will value you. They are out there. Fight the demoralizing feeling with everything you’ve got! This company sounds weird.

    8. Parenthesis Guy*

      I think you need to have a conversation with your boss about what they have in mind and what they would like you to do. I almost wonder whether it’s worth talking to other people at your bosses level about this convo and see if they’d advocate for you just to show how you are visible.

      But you also want to think about whether you want to stay. You’re clearly providing value. If the CEO doesn’t see it that way, maybe it’s time to go elsewhere.

    9. Pay no attention...*

      Instead of soft skills like culture and morale… I would think they want an Office Manager that is looking into policy and process to find ways to improve the business functions and bottom line. I would focus on developing higher level goals and strategies for the staff, and delegating those administrative tasks to actual admins. Perhaps you should be looking into something like Lean Six Sigma training for yourself to improve efficiency, or research/implement software like SAP Concur where everyone does their own travel/expense reports. Instead of doing the work yourself, you should be looking for ways that the work can be done better, faster or less expensive.

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        I’m the only admin, so there’s no one to distribute my tasks to. I’m also not senior enough to have any suggestions I make for the business taken seriously. I want to do more, and they want me to do more, but they won’t give me access to the tools or training I would need. They also won’t give me the power to make any changes.

        1. Pay no attention...*

          I’m sorry, that sounds like a no-win situation given that you are a Manager without admin support and they don’t seem to value your soft skills. You could still try to think business improvement… lower expenses, fewer mistakes or faster turn-around.

          You might not have power to just make the changes, but if you can present proposals for them to approve that might be the “visibility and leadership” they are looking for. Include details that you’ve researched like pros/cons, budget/expense, return on the investment….having numbers to back you up can lend credibility to a proposal. For example, “Implementing XYZ software will cost $, take 3 months to implement based on this [research], and should result in a % reduction/increase in ABC.”

        2. Uh Oh HR*

          That might be your leverage point? Print out (or type up) your JD, and highlight all of the day-to-day tasks you have to handle for the office to Literally Exist. Then type up a list of strategic, higher-level things you’d love to bring to the office. Sit down with your manager and the singular C-Suite and say: look, I’d love to do This, That, and The Other, but I have to act as an admin assistant just to keep us going and it eats up huge chunks of my time. Give me an admin assistant to supervise and we’ll kick butt.

          If that doesn’t work…well! Then they obviously just want to complain and don’t deserve an admin of your caliber.

        3. goddessoftransitory*

          From this it sounds like they’re setting you up to fail. Or at least provide a Bizarro World version of plausible deniability for never giving you appropriate financial recognition in the form of raises or bonuses.

          Definitely send out those resumes.

    10. Jeneral*

      The duties you’ve listed sound very important, and also the kinds of things that are more service-oriented/secretarial in nature. Could it be that they want you to take on a more manager-type/leadership approach? What would that look like in your office? Are there areas you could take initiative, or where you already have? Streamlining a process, maybe, or improving communication around a routine thing?

      Maybe you could brainstorm a list of other types of things you could do, and go back to your manager to ask, “is this what you mean?”–though your manager and the c-suite may not be clear themselves on what they actually want.

      A second part of that conversation would be asking them about what you should shift off your plate to make room for these other priorities. Should people be scheduling their own travel? Does the office really need the lunches? You may even have the authority to make some of thee decisions on your own. “sorry, boss has asked me to focus on X, you’ll need to handle that yourself.”

      Is it possible you’ve ended up taking on more admin-type duties than needed because that’s comfortable? It may be that people are genuinely grateful because you make their work lives easier and organize social perks, but those things aren’t actually your job and could be done by someone less senior, or handled by the person traveling, for example.

      It might be that this ends up an opportunity to develop your leadership skills and resume. Any chance you default to helping/giving/pleasing people? If so, and if you do decide to make changes, I’d be keep in mind the fact that of course people will complain if the changes make things less convenient for them, and that’s not necessarily a sign that you’re doing it wrong.

      It’s also possible that your bosses are just trying to cut salary and don’t see all the things you do, so I would be polishing my resume and scanning job ads, in addition to looking for ways to make your work visible. Are there numbers you can come up with “saved company x $,” even if they feel silly to calculate. Those can go to your bosses and look great on your resume

  11. OfficePols*

    Navigating office politics as a new person
    A few weeks ago, I started a job in a small office (<20 people) within a large organization. I could tell pretty early on that there were some prickly issues between people in the office. The structure is pretty flat – one manager, one assistant manager (AM), and then the rest are coordinators/assistants/general workers. I was brought in as a specialist, so while it's acknowledged I have more expertise than the others, I don't hold a supervisory role. Technically everyone reports to the manager although the assistant manager is also considered leadership.
    What I've gleaned is that the assistant manager used to be a coordinator but was elevated to AM after the prior, beloved AM left. The new AM is called a micromanager by the rest of the team – he's set up 'structure' (ie weekly/bi-weekly meetings) whereas before they were only as-needed/as-requested by the coordinators, which may have been once every 6 weeks. He's instituted many new processes, and he has badmouthed coordinators to their peers ("Jane should go to therapy" type of comments). The coordinators have told me that there's been a decline in morale this past year since new AM started and they secretly want me to be the new AM. I have no intention of doing that. FWIW, the manager is a great leader but can be conflict-avoidant.
    The new AM has goals of climbing the leadership ladder but isn't really displaying leadership qualities. I want to position myself to support the coordinators AND the AM for the sake of the office's work output. Any tips for how to navigate this divide?

    1. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      Don’t get involved! Maintain an aloof distance from it all. People will talk and vent and you can nod your head and acknowledge without agreeing. Focus on the work and the behaviors that are preventing work from being done. Stare and blink if they have ridiculous reasons for not doing what they are supposed to do. State clearly what needs to be done. Sometimes the only way to get through situations like this is to expose how ridiculous people are being by rising above the pettiness and reminding people what they are expected to do or what you need from them.

    2. I Can't Even*

      Stay out of it. The staff have no control over who is promoted and if you get on the bosses bad sides they will make you work life hell.

    3. miel*

      I’d suggest you stay out of the drama. Do good work, keep earning respect.

      Right now, you have no standing to tell the AM how to do their job. That’s the manager’s job. It’s not your place to do the manager’s job for them, *especially* since you’ve only been there a few weeks.

    4. Jennie*

      Have you made clear that you wouldn’t take the AM role? If not, I think that’s probably important to do — because you don’t want them to start transitioning this guy out of the role assuming that you will step in when that’s not the case.

      Otherwise, since you are just a few weeks in, my instinct is that you are probably too new to be really getting into the politics of all of this. For now, I would just keep your head down and try to do the best you can at your assigned job duties. Make sure you ask your manager for feedback so you know you aren’t falling short at that. IMO, there will be more time to navigate all this interpersonal stuff when you are more settled in.

      1. Tio*

        Yeah, if anyone brings that up again, something breezy like “Oh, I’m not really aiming for that position as I’m much more comfortable with (subject) right now and I’m enjoying doing what I’m doing!” or if you know you never want management type roles: “I’m much more comfortable with (subject) right now and I’m not looking to move into management!”

        Reading your list, some of the things AM is doing is pretty out of line (he should not be talking about people needing therapy, wtf) but you don’t have much standing to push back on that, unless you overhear it, in which case you COULD say something but it would put you n a tricky spot. But without knowing more about the process and meetings he implemented, it seems like those are pretty normal things for him to do.

  12. Favorite Auntie*

    Tips on managing maternity leave on a small team? I’m the manager and was just notified my employee will be taking 12 weeks early next year (to be clear I’m happy for her and glad my company offers leave fully paid!). Considerations:

    Our work is hyper-specific so can be time-consuming to train a contractor or temp on.
    Our work is also business-critical, much of it cannot be dropped or ignored during this time.
    My ideal would be to take an employee from another team at the company (already mostly trained!), but when I talked to HR, the vibe is that someone has to be willing to do that work (and their manager has to be willing to lose them for a time), which I will explore but I’m guessing is unlikely.
    The other option would be that I’d need to step up and do the work myself and I’m loathe to do this: I have a fairly cushy job with lots of free time currently to work on higher level projects and going back to operational work would be extremely draining (do I just suck it up??), and I have vacations planned during this time so would need to make sure we have coverage anyway.

    Grateful for any advice!

    1. DrSalty*

      Train a temp if you can’t find an on team replacement. Or bring in a part time temp and do the other half yourself. It sounds like it’s not feasible for you to do it all yourself … 12 weeks is a long time. It will be worth the cost if it keeps the business running smoothly.

      When I went on mat leave, they brought in a freelancer to cover part of my work and my boss covered the other half. His first days overlapped with me so I could help train him.

    2. MsSolo (UK)*

      So the UK solution to this would often be to hire someone internally from a lower paid position into a temp cover role, so they get a bit of extra money and some useful experience for when they’re looking for their next promotion, and their team would do the same and pick up someone entry level, and the entry level role might get a temp or stay open, depending on the work. If you don’t have this sort of culture, though, it might be a hard sell (especially financially), so you might have to take a more informal approach, maybe pick someone up part time, or just go straight to temp.

    3. M2*

      If you have the funds get a temp to come and train PT while this person is here and then hire them PT or FT when this person is on mat leave.

      You say here you have a cushy job so it sounds like you have the time to do their work even PT. I think you suck it up and do it .

      I had someone come in my team for only 3.5 months and then go out in 6 months paid maternity leave. I basically cover all strategy and oversee teams, have high level meetings constantly and this person did a lot of the more mundane day to day stuff. I covered their work the entire time because my organization didn’t want to hire a temp (and the work was also a bit confidential) and I didn’t feel
      it was right to put the work on other people on the team. I’m the boss and get paid more and my organization couldn’t pay the other team members for the extra workload so why would I give it to people who won’t get extra money for doing more work?

      Some of them did small things like if we had to be at two meetings at once someone would take another meeting or event, but as the head of the department it was my job to do.

      I also wonder why you think it’s ok to take someone from another team to yours? Then what do you expect that manager to end up doing? Being part of a team is about being considerate of everyone not just your own schedule and what you want. 3 months really isn’t that long time honestly and training someone might not be in the budget it worth it.

    4. Strive to Excel*

      It sounds like it might be worthwhile for your team to have a specific regular contractor or temp you could contact for backup, because having someone available to step in and do coverage is going to be useful for a small business-critical office. Training for the first time would be challenging. Alternatively offer to hire a temp for some other department and borrow an employee?

    5. I Can't Even*

      So think of it this way. You are a manager of a team where one person will be out for 12 weeks. You have a “cushy job with lots of free time” but do not want to pick up the work of someone what you manage because you think it is too “low level” and want to get someone else to do it. Consider the optics of how your staff will see this if the work gets pushed onto them. Trust me they will see it.

      2. PrincessFlyingHedgehog*

        I agree with this but with the caveat that if you are doing this coverage *in addition* to your current duties, then you negotiate for additional pay. If it’s going to put your current duties on pause, that’s another matter.

        1. I Can't Even*

          If they are the manager covering work when there is no employee is usually part of the job. Peers never get extra to cover for 12 weeks and it will give the boss professional points with their staff if they do not push the work onto them.

      3. Favorite Auntie*

        I said “free time to work on higher level projects”… not the same as you’re implying!

        My conundrum is more that if I spend more time doing operational work, I spend less time doing strategic projects which hampers MY career development.

      4. Ginger Cat Lady*

        My thoughts exactly.
        If she’s using the time for “higher level projects” it isn’t actually “free time” like she describes. If it was part of her work duties, she wouldn’t call it “free time” she’d call it work. I suspect the projects are not part of her work duties and she just does what she wants in the hopes she’ll impress someone and move up.
        Doing her job isn’t beneath you, OP. It’s only 12 weeks, and might be good for you to see how your reports work is. Spending 12 weeks covering a leave won’t hurt you, if anything it shows you’re a flexible leader who doesn’t think they’re too good for the work those under them do.

    6. Parenthesis Guy*

      Usually it falls out on the manager. Some companies have work loads at thirty hours a week instead of forty in case something like this happens. If yours doesn’t, then not much can be done.

    7. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      I’ve been in a situation very much like this as the co-worker of the new parent (and as such I completely understand that a temp or contractor isn’t always feasible), and here’s what worked well:

      Look at the work of your entire team as a whole – yours, the person who is going on leave, and the other people. In my case this was myself, the person going on leave, our manager, and one other teammate, so four people. Identify the least important parts across the board – what can be paused or slowed for four months, not just from the person going on leave but from everyone. You now have one fewer person available to do this work, so one person’s worth is going to need to be on pause, or more of it slowed down.

      Divide up the remaining tasks accordingly – everyone should keep doing the remaining tasks they’ve been doing, and the rest of the time filled by the tasks they’re taking from the person on leave. Say one of my projects that took 8 hours a week was deemed less important and could be paused – then I’ll take on 8 hours worth of new projects, and so forth. I took some, my teammate took some, and our manager took some. Keep in mind that project work doesn’t take up the entire workweek – there was probably 8 hours/week that was team meetings or meetings that already had multiple people attending and as such didn’t need any additional coverage.

      This gets easier and easier with a larger team, but the key point is that you don’t need to have one person covering all of someone’s tasks, you just need to make sure that all of the business-critical tasks are covered.

    8. Mutually supportive*

      If you really can’t just get a temp, can the work be split so that you pick up some of it, your team scramble to pick up part of it, and someone from another team picks up part of it (so the rest of their team also scramble a bit to cover their other work)?

  13. Nom de Plume*

    I was fully ready to leave my job. I interviewed for two roles that seemed like a really good fit. One got back to me to that they are “reconsidering the position” so that’s no longer on the table. The other appears to be ghosting me. There are jobs in my industry (fundraising) but not ones that I particularly want, so I think I’m going to be staying at my current job for a while.

    I don’t know if that means 3 months, 6 months, a year. The main driver to leave is that my relationship with my boss (the head of the agency) has gone downhill this year. She is pushing priorities for next year that I don’t think are strategically sound, and is not listening when I say so. Does anyone have advice for staying put while being asked to implement things that don’t seem like the right path?

    1. Yes And*

      I’m in a not-identical but related situation, in that my org is going down a road that I think is a bad strategic choice. The difference in my case is that they were already well down this road when I took the job, and I only realized over the course of my first year what a bad choice it was. My approach is to implement the strategy to the best of my ability, while speaking loudly about the need to mitigate the downside and collaborating closely with colleagues who also see that need.

    2. OrdinaryJoe*

      I’ve been there and it sucks! The best advice I have and where I found peace in your situation is to keep looking and to stop pushing back and play along with your boss. That should reduce the tension with them. Doesn’t matter if you’re right and they’re wrong, you’ve expressed your opinion, they don’t want it or don’t agree and to keep pushing back is just banging your head into a brick wall – hurting no one but yourself.

      You’re looking to get out of the mess (good!) so right now, just focus on less stress and tension, and head down. Short of doing something illegal or highly immoral, your new mantra is … Not my circus, not my monkeys ….

      Good luck!!

      1. Bitte Meddler*

        ^^ This.

        Your paycheck is the same regardless of which things you prioritize. Do what your manager is asking and keep looking for another job.

    3. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Unless the path is unethical, just try to detach as much as possible. Make sure you are doing everything the best you can so that you can’t be blamed if the path is really problematic.

      Sometimes it helps to consider other stakeholders. I work for a university so even if the path seems misguided, I focus on doing what I can for the best of the students I work with within the misguided framework. It helps a lot.

    4. Jeneral*

      Agree with the above. Detach and stop pushing back. It’s hard when a job you used to love/like changes, but you really can’t control everything or get things back to the way they used to be.

      What helped me was to be very clear on a few things 1) my own red lines (these were shady people and I wasn’t going near anything sketchy) 2) my own financials–every month I stayed was for future retired me 3) my job search to get out, what my options might be, where I might or might not move to, and prioritizing a culture with honest, normal people

  14. Orange Crushed*

    I work in a toxic job where they enforce the rules but only for certain people. For example, we’re allowed to flex our time but there’s a limit on the number of hours per week. I went over that time and had to take time off. Another employee did this and yet no one said anything (so far) about him having to take time off. I understand that there are maybe certain circumstances or whatever, but it’s not fair that the rules change depending on the person. I’m looking for a new job, but until then, how can I not be so frustrated about this?

    1. Cookie Monster*

      How do you know no one said anything to him? (I know that sounds confrontational, but I’m genuinely curious.) It could have been a private conversation with his manager. And maybe he does have certain accommodations in place that you wouldn’t necessarily know about (even if you ask him, he wouldn’t necessarily divulge that info, which is his right).

      As far as being frustrated – it’s okay to be frustrated with your job sometimes! But look at that big picture – how do you feel about the job overall? Do you feel valued? Besides this issue, are you and coworkers treated well? Do you like your coworkers, manager, etc.?

      1. Orange Crushed*

        I overheard (they were standing right next to my desk) his manager and our boss questioning his hours, but no one talked to him directly. Maybe when timesheets are due they’ll say something.

        1. TheBunny*

          But you really don’t know no one talked to him. Or what arrangements may have been in place.

          Perfect example: a few years ago I had a coworker LIVID that I came in 20 minutes late every morning holding coffee. She assumed I started at 8am because she did. Nope. I was in at 8:30. So what looked like 20 minutes late was actually 10 minutes early. But with coffee.

          1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

            I had a supervisor upset that I went to lunch at 11:00 instead of when he thought I should start at 11:30, but he didn’t bring it up until the two of us were in a meeting with the Department Manager. DM set him straight. BTW – I was an engineer on salary with 20 years experience at that point.

    2. Rex Libris*

      Try to keep in mind that you’re not privy to all the details around how someone’s time is managed unless you’re their supervisor. Maybe there were extenuating circumstances, maybe it didn’t work exactly how it looks from the outside, who knows?

      Also, the way I look at it is that if I feel that I am objectively being treated unreasonably, that’s actionable, but if I’m just feeling that maybe someone else got a cookie and I didn’t, that’s just kind of the way life goes sometimes.

    3. Sneezy*

      I’m in a very similar situation (my workplace is like Upside Down World it’s so messed up). What helps me deal with the favouritism and unfairness is to disengage as much as possible. I want to reinforce in my brain that the environment I’m in is temporary, and what these people do to me doesn’t matter in the end. Going on interviews helps a lot, so does working on side projects. I also do as little as I can get away with, whereas I used to go over and above.

  15. Rosie*

    Is changing the week I take PTO the best thing to do in this situation?

    I have some PTO I need to use up. The two people who were previously in my position (Bob and Larry) are my back ups, so I chose a week to take off and confirmed that Bob could do one vital task and that Larry could do two vital tasks while I was out. I let my boss know the dates and that Bob and Larry were covering for me.

    A week later, Larry messaged me about a conference he was excited to be attending, and when I asked when the conference was, he revealed it was the week I had PTO. Confused, I pointed out that he had agreed to cover for me that week. He said to ask Bob to handle all three tasks, or to train other people to do them.

    Bob said he had too much on his plate to confirm he could help with two additional tasks. He told my boss, and now my boss wants to make sure someone else can cover for me. I told him I could change my PTO dates (I don’t have specific plans), but he insisted we’d make sure the week I requested works out.

    I’d really rather just take the PTO a week earlier than have to get someone else access to the things I use and train them on two complex tasks and then worry about it while on PTO. Changing the dates is the best way to handle it, isn’t it? Is there a good way to word it so it doesn’t sound like I don’t want to train someone/don’t trust them to do the tasks?

      1. Everything Bagel*

        Yeah, it’s a good idea in general to have someone else who knows how to do what you do in case of an emergency. If I was the manager, I’d want to make sure that there was some overlap because if you leave, they may suddenly be in a crisis situation.

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      Changing the dates is the best way to handle it, isn’t it?

      It’s your PTO; if it doesn’t work for you, it doesn’t work for anyone.

      Is there a good way to word it so it doesn’t sound like I don’t want to train someone/don’t trust them to do the tasks?

      Were it me, I’d focus on the amount of ramp-up time plausible for coverage. E.g. I could get Steve trained to replace Larry as my backup, but that would leave Steve no time to practice/dry run/dressed rehearsals before I’d actually be gone. Let’s train Steve for the next time I’m out, but for this time, I think it serves all parties involved if I move my week off up/back a week. I really couldn’t fully enjoy my PTO knowing that Steve wouldn’t be set up for success in my absence due to the abridged preparation time!

    3. EngGirl*

      If you genuinely would prefer to just change your dates rather than train someone I’d go with, “Hey boss, I know you said that we could make my dates work and I so appreciate that, but honestly my plans are pretty flexible and it would be more beneficial on my end to simply move the date a bit and know that my tasks are being covered by people who are experienced in this area.”

      There is also the possibility that your boss is trying to force the training because it sounds like there’s not a lot of back up for you. If that’s the case, especially if the PTO is coming up soon, you may need to suggest a plan to train others in your department for the future when you’re able to plot it out more.

      1. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

        You “shouldn’t” “have to” change your PTO, but if changing your PTO isn’t a big deal, you don’t have to choose to die on the hill of not changing your PTO just because you already filed it and got it approved.

    4. sdog*

      No, I don’t think changing your PTO is the right way to handle this. I think your boss is doing the right thing, honoring the time you’ve already requested and been approved for. Having another person trained to do these tasks makes sense to me so that you have more backup in the future. Who knows, next time you may not be able to change your dates, or Bob and Larry may have too much on their plates. I think you should do as your boss suggests, work with him to identify potential backups unless he has folks in mind already, train, and take your PTO.

      It sounds like it’s hard for you to let go of work stuff and not worry while on vacation, and I totally get that, but in my mind, that’s something that might be worth working on for yourself.

      Also, I’ll add that you may come back and find that these tasks were not done the way you would have, or you end up dealing with backlog from your vacation. If that happens, I still would not conclude that changing your PTO days would have been better. That’s then a reason to have further conversation with your boss about training others/the right people.

    5. Strive to Excel*

      Side-eying Larry, who in part caused this by not checking his schedule when he said he’d be available!

      How far out is this PTO situation? A week? A month? Do you have time to train someone on at least the basics of the complex tasks so they won’t break them? And does it have to be you specifically training them? If Bob & Larry are able to act as backup, can they step in to train? Especially Larry!

    6. Anonymous cat*

      Shouldn’t it be Larry’s responsibility to figure out backup? He agreed so it became his task that week.

  16. Let me be dark and twisty*

    Anyone has any advice for working through a “[person] eating crackers” phase with a colleague?

    The colleague is newly promoted to my level (senior staff) and is in the “very eager to be here” phase of a new job. They aren’t doing anything wrong and nothing’s changed in their behavior but for some reason, everything they do is rubbing me the wrong way. (Usually getting into a “eating crackers” phase is my signal to take time off but for reasons better suited to a Saturday post, that isn’t happening so I need other coping mechanisms.)

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I try to ignore what I can and slow down response to what I can’t. If the thing I find annoying doesn’t affect my work, I do my best to ignore it. If it does, then I try not to respond immediately to whatever it is, e.g. I have several colleagues whose tone in emails drives me bananas, so even if they’re asking me something completely innocuous, I get annoyed, so I make an effort not to respond immediately so I can get over my initial annoyance.

      1. Scott*

        This is a good technique. If you’re going to feel emotions about someone then give yourself time to feel those and let them go. Then you can provide whatever response is needed without the emotion. If you start feeling the emotion rising again, step away and get back to it later.

        1. ampersand*

          Agreed, acknowledging the feeling might help. “Oh, coworker is doing the thing again that drives me up the wall. Ugggggh.” Maybe give yourself a minute or so to feel annoyed, think all the unkind thoughts you want to, then move on to something else.

    2. Goddess47*

      If you can’t take extended time off, go for half a day when you guess they may be doing something especially cracker-y… sometimes a brief reprieve will help…

      Good luck.

    3. Too Many Tabs Open*

      Sometimes I cope with people who are annoying me by making up structured verses (haiku, limericks; haven’t needed a sonnet yet) about the situation. That usually adds enough absurdity or takes enough of my brain focus off the annoyance that I can handle it better.

      Eager new colleague.
      Golden retriever at work —
      When will they calm down?

      Colleague annoys me
      With the tone of their email —
      Deep breath, then answer.

      You keep asking this;
      I say what I said before;
      Answer hasn’t changed.

    4. A Book about Metals*

      I don’t have specific advice, but thank you for using (person) instead of the usual word – that expression always bothered me.

    5. Goldfeesh*

      It can help to remind yourself that you’re sort of the one being irrational too. You say they aren’t doing anything wrong. The main coworker I work with can drive me nuts, but I think I drive her nuts as well even though neither of us are doing it intentionally- I remind myself of that to make myself feel better.

      1. Bike Walk Barb*

        With this in mind, what about making a bingo card? Some of the squares are the things that trigger your strong desire for crackers. Other squares are about you reaching for the crackers. You’re giving yourself the chance to laugh at your own reactions as you acknowledge them as real and as things you want to move away from.

        Have fun with it. Give yourself prizes. Just don’t yell “Bingo!” in the middle of a meeting with this person right after they say something they’ve said before, or you say something you’ve said before.

      2. Cracker eating subordinate*

        This is related my cracker-eater problem. The big problem being, the cracker-eater is my boss. He isn’t doing anything objectively wrong, per se, but just rubs me the wrong way for some reason. One problem is that he’s been my boss and part of the company for almost two years now, but yet almost every day reveals some piece of essential knowledge he failed to pick up in those two years. And yet, how do I expect him to get that knowledge unless he reveals that he doesn’t already have it?
        Anyone have advice for me to not let this get to me so much?

        1. Linda with Pockets*

          Well, I think the fact that you’re aware of it is impressive. Lots of people would skip taking responsibility – they’d skip straight to, “my boss is so annoying” without questioning themselves. So you’re already doing the most difficult and impressive part of tackling this.
          I guess you could have a chat with the part of you that is irritated by your boss, and hear them out, and respect that this part is trying to help you out. You could vent the specific feelings and annoyances by journalling, or talking it out loud in the shower. (Apparently, studies have shown that cursing reduces pain. I think of that as a sort of metaphor for the fact that venting helps people cope with having strong feelings.) And after you let your annoyance express itself, it could be useful to make a list of 3 reasons why it’s OK that your boss is doing xyz (Eg, We all have things we’re not good at… Boss has a small baby at home so tiredness or stress might be affecting them… At least they are helpful when I ask about X…)

      3. Chocolate Covered Cotton*

        She says right there in her comment that she knows she’s being irrational and is asking for ideas on how to deal with her own irrational thoughts. And your advice is to remind herself she’s being irrational.

  17. Hungry!*

    I know Alison has responded to many Qs about special diets and work events in the past but…I am wondering what to do when my coworker who organizes catering does order veg options, but never labels them? I’ve brought this up with them a few times, and it just doesn’t seem to be a priority at all or something they’re going to begin doing. I’m more sensitive to it because I’m vegetarian but…we frequently host lunch events with sandwich spreads, nothing labeled, the veg option often mixed in with others, and no way of truly identifying what’s in a sandwich without taking it apart. Yesterday was sort of my last straw when the lunches were such a mystery that I couldn’t eat at all and had to leave a few minutes early to cram a snack before my next meeting; and because one of our guests took a bite of salad without realizing there was bacon in it. It was not a happy discovery for her! I used to organize events, I know it’s annoying, but I’m feeling like a broken record requesting that my colleague just add labels to the food, and starting to wonder if I’m the ridiculous one.

    1. Cookie Monster*

      It shouldn’t be that hard to ask the caterers to separate the veg options from the meat options. They do that all the time. Which means the coworker wouldn’t have to bother with labels (which, admittedly, can be a pain). You could ask her to do that, explaining why it’s a problem and examples of problems in the past. If that doesn’t do it, could you talk to this coworker’s manager?

    4. Cordelia*

      can’t the colleague ask the caterers to label the food when they provide it? Or if she won’t – but I can’t see why she wouldn’t – then can you just call the catering company and ask for this? I’d usually expect the caterers to be doing the labelling anyway, rather than the person ordering the food

      1. Llellayena*

        It depends on who sets up the food. For smaller meetings/organizations where the admin sets everything up, the food may arrive with a label on the lid, the lid is removed and set aside, and the unlabeled tray of food is set out with no label.

        This should be treated as seriously as allergen labeling though. If someone has an allergy to blue cheese and accidentally eats some because the dressings aren’t labeled, that’s a real issue and obviously something that would prompt labeling. Vegetarian options should be no different. Long-term vegetarians can have strong, physically debilitating reactions to eating meat again (almost as bad as an allergy) and that’s not even getting into the religious aspect of someone who’s vegetarian because they’re Hindu or doesn’t eat bacon because they’re Muslim. This needs to be brought to the attention of someone above the admin and it needs to be approached as a requirement of the job of setting out the food.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          This IS allergy labeling! There are people with allergies to red meat but not fowl (alpha-gal syndrome), or lactose intolerance, or all kinds of things. Food needs to be labeled so everyone with specific dietary needs (self-imposed, cultural, medical, etc) can comfortably and safely eat.

    5. kalli*

      You’re not ridiculous. Sometimes caterers will label things or provide them in separate containers and sometimes they won’t, and maybe go ‘the ones on the end of this tray are the veg ones’, and expect that to be passed on. If she’s taking them out to make a display of the food and the containers are labelled, then she can leave those in the containers – nobody cares if it’s out on catering trays or fancy plates. But if they’re not, and she’s going to have to change caterers or something it’ll be something that’s better handled with the support of higher ups, including that it has caused issues with guests having contaminated food and employees unable to eat.
      There might be a short food safety course offered by a local council, or whoever is in charge of taking reports of contamination and issuing recalls where you are; where I am there are ones for catering, community events etc. and they’re like 20 minutes of videos with a multiple choice quiz; it’s all self-directed through their website with the option of longer paid ones, but the information about keeping foods separate, how long they can be kept out etc. is there and could be worth passing on to her generally.

    6. Policy Wonk*

      Ask the caterer to label them all. Take that burden off the co-worker. This is important – it’s not just about the vegetarian options. Some people are allergic to e.g., fish and need to know that this one has tuna, etc.

    7. Bike Walk Barb*

      You’re not the ridiculous one.

      Yes, I’m also a vegetarian so I’ve had the hangries at poorly handled meals and I’d be spitting out that bite of salad and looking around for the person in charge of setting out the food to ask if they have labels so I know what I can eat.

      As others have said, careful food labeling addresses allergies, religious beliefs, and other things that affect whether someone can eat something. I have a diabetic family member and knowing whether a dessert was prepared with a sugar substitute would be important.

      This is just basic good practice and common courtesy, to say nothing of kindness. Insist on it and take it up the chain as a matter of standard business practice that protects the organization’s reputation. (Protection from lawsuits will be implicit in that statement.)

    8. Loreli*

      You need to politely and professionally be “in her face” about this every single time there’s an eating event. Mention it when you first hear about the event. Mention it again the day before the event. Mention it again just before y the caterers deliver the food ( or before the organizer leaves to pick it up.

      Be extremely specific about what you need: “Matilda, would you please tell the caterers they need to label the food as to whether it’s vegetarian?” “Matilda, please put the vegetarian and omnivore options on separate serving trays”. “Please include some signs on the serving trays that say ‘vegetarian’ etc”.
      Continue doing this until she gets it. Be pleasant, smile, but be persistent!!

      I worked at a high tech company that had many engineers of Indian descent and were vegetarian. The event organizer consistently did things like schedule department dinners at a local steakhouse. At the company’s holiday party, every single dish in the buffet line contained meat – even the green beans (bacon bits on top) and the mac&cheese (with ham)!!! Multiple people had to remind this organizer for every single food event, it took a long time for it to sink in.

  18. A Simple Narwhal*

    So my office has decided to fully lean into and enforce RTO. It’s a super bummer because I like actually like my job, my boss, my benefits, and my coworkers. I have a very long commute by train but prior to this I was able to work remotely on the train for the first and last hour-ish of the day. But all of that flexibility is getting revoked so in order to meet the in-office requirements I’ll need to leave the house before my toddler wakes up and get home not long before we start bedtime, and I’m not doing that. I can make do for not but it is not viable beyond the short term.

    But in good news I reached out yesterday to a recruiter I’ve worked with before and I already have a meeting set up with her today! Fingers crossed I’ll be able to find another job with flexibility/closer to home/fully remote soon.

    Any advice on questions to ask as I (hopefully) start interviewing to find out if a company is truly flexible/fully remote? I’m going to be honest with the recruiter that it is a main priority for me, but I know recruiters also really want to get people placed and might fudge the truth a bit.

    1. Tradd*

      Did the recruiter provide a job description or posting? What does it say? I’m asking because my company tried to hire someone for in office earlier this year and everyone wanted remote, even thought the posting mentioned multiple places this was an in office position (none of us are remote, all in office).

    3. Anon4this12*

      I would be clear with the recruiter, but know most organizations can revoke remote at any time. I would be more inclined to look for an organization that is flexible since I know or heard of MANY organizations, including ones that had remote employees RTO recently.

      In all honesty, sometimes it has to do with productivity. I seen metrics/ data supporting RTO in some instances. Sometimes top performers get more flexibility or at least in some places. Have you spoken to your current company about possibly having more flexibility? Don’t make it about your location, but if you are a top performer they may give you more flexibility.

      Do your own research and use your network/look online to see how the culture is at each company. I am hybrid right now, but am flexible with my team on WFH as long as work gets done.

      Had an issue with someone so talked to them, they didn’t fix the issue so now they don’t have as much flexibility. I was away on a work trip and during that time this person left very early multiple days in a row/ didn’t work but claimed as work days and didn’t inform me. They didn’t check their email after they left early and missed a few important items. I ended up finding out (not from them), spoke with them, they told me it was a childcare issue. I told them that was fine, but they needed to communicate with me. They would need to check emails and have cell available if they are needed on days they left early and if they WFH I expect productivity. I told them they could also use the great vacation/personal days/ sick leave we receive and to take those days as needed. I picked up a project they were struggling with as well. It got better for a period, but then back to how things were before. Flexibility works both ways and I say that during an interview. Tell me what works for you and I will let you know what I need/the team needs and we can usually come to some sort of solution. We are adults.

      I am a parent and understand people have caregiving duties for family members/pets and other things going on, but the work needs to get done. Things happen, but if its a continuous pattern we need to come up with another solution for everyone. I don’t micromanage and if you need to run home and meet a plumber that is fine, but I expect quick message so I know you had to take the afternoon.

      As a new employee flexibility might not be as available to you either so ask about that. When I first hire I want someone in the office more for training. During Covid the people who only trained virtually did not have the growth as those who trained in-person. It took them a lot longer to learn everything. We have that data, so I am very clear when hiring. I usually expect people to be in the office 4-5 days a week when they first start out for the first month or two and then we can reevaluate depending on how they are doing and what time of year it is. So you might want to ask about flexibility/office requirements for first few months and then long term.

      2. Pocket Mouse*

        I agree about talking to your current company, specifically your supervisor. Unless they’re a real stickler for rules, or the RTO policy is meant to get people to leave, I imagine your supervisor will want to work with you to find a solution in order to not lose you. I wouldn’t necessarily say you’re ready to leave over it, but you can certainly explain its impact on you and that you would find it really difficult to do long-term. Who knows, maybe your supervisor will say you can count one hour of train work, or maybe they’ll say they expect a lot of attention on in-office hours for a couple months and ask you to do the best you can for the time being and some flexibility may become possible again. You can’t know until you talk about it!

    4. TheBunny*

      So…even if it’s flexible or remote, as we’re all seeing, this could (and possibly will) change.

      My advice is to ask but to open yourself up to the possibility that it could become a fully in office position. By that I mean looking for start time flexibility, a doable commute if you had to 5 days per week, those types of things.

    5. Wordybird*

      I think you can do your own research on a company and figure out if it will remain remote or not.

      My employer has one office… that is multiple states away from me. Of course, they knew where I lived and that I would never be able to commute to the office. I also went to the team page and Googled a few of the top titled people and saw that they did not all live close to the office or in the same state.

      While I think probably half of the team lives in the same time zone as the office, I know that less than a quarter live in the same state and many live even further than I do from HQ. More importantly, perhaps, the company makes it very clear that making money is their number-one priority (and who brings in that money), and I know that the top 5 earners do not live within any type of commutable distance from the office. An RTO policy could never logistically happen without laying off most of their workforce and all of their top sales people & the workforce is too spread out to justify buying additional office space in other locations.

      1. TheBunny*

        To a degree. But it’s certainly not a guarantee.

        At a previous position (within the last 6 months) I worked in tech and each high level job we played we’d get at least one current Amazon employee apply and tell us they were looking around in anticipation of Amazon doing exactly what they just did. And these were people who lived in an area not Seattle when hired, not people who moved during COVID (there were some of those too) and told the job was remote but were being told that if the company went RTO they would be expected in office.

        I think the bottom line is when a company does a RTO they are already fully aware it will upset some people and some will leave. I think they are banking on people not wanting to look and deciding is on if some leave. I’m not sure they are all that concerned with upsetting those people for whom RTO means moving a large distance…I just think they are part of the calculation of those who will probably resign.

        Is it awful? Yup. But it’s what I really think is happening.

  19. BellaStella*

    I am excited to share I passed a PM certification recently and also that I am speaking Monday at a PM conference on AI. The advice I need is what to wear! Weather will be rainy but think I can avoid it. I am a woman in my 50’s and do not own a suit so think I should get a suit for this. Black is preferred and I can get one tmrw at the shops. Is this ok? I want to feel powerful and not look unpolished, etc.

    1. this-is-fine.jpeg*

      A black / neutral dress is easier to find and fit than a suit and still extremely professional looking! Neutral = dark blue or green or maroon, or black with stripes or polka dots or a simple pattern (I personally love big florals but with black base). Then you can wear with flats.
      Good luck!

    2. Paint N Drip*

      Congrats! I don’t have a lot of experience with conferences, but I would say you need to find the right outfit for your confidence. A suit that feels comfortable enough would definitely look polished, although I’ve heard that conferences are leaning more biz-cas so maybe a blazer or just a nice top would be fine.
      I’ll offer you this – speaking on stage is HOT! Stage lights on you can make you 20 degrees hotter, seriously. Anxious performer tip is to run your hands under cold water before you go on stage :) best of luck!

    3. Izzy Legal*

      Hello! I’m a 30s woman with 10+ years in the trade show industry – happy to help here.

      First – congrats! It’s a big deal to get that certification and then to speak. As for dress – agree with the other commenters on a neutral dress with a complimentary blazer. I don’t think you need a full suit; I very rarely see those anymore, for both guys and gals. And I think AI is a new/techie enough topic that a biz casual look is fine.

      If you’re leaning more toward pants – a dark (black or navy) pant with a cute top (doesn’t have to be a button up) and a blazer in a complementary color. I.e., purple goes well with a black pant. grey goes well with a navy pant, etc

      Also, be sure to practice, including your movements – i.e. is the screen going to be behind you, in front of you – know where to point to draw the audience’s attention.

      You’re gonna do great! And make sure to take water with you and do sips in between slides – they will hopefully have water there for the speakers.

      Go get ’em!

      1. BellaStella*

        Thank you and agree on the water. Good point on the suit being too formal. Sounds like a nice dress and blazer are in order.

    4. Joielle*

      I’m in a pretty formal industry and a full black suit would be considered a little too stuffy at the conferences I’ve been to. I agree with other commenters that a neutral dress or pants/top and separate blazer is the way to go. If the blazer has a pattern or is a fun color, even better! Or you could do statement jewelry. You want to look polished but relaxed and confident.

      Congrats on your certification and good luck with the presentation!!

    6. Chauncy Gardener*

      I suggest a black sheath dress with a jacket or soft jacket of a strong color with nice accessories. Strong colors are a very powerful look for a woman, IMHO and it always has worked well for me at board meetings and such.

      1. Bike Walk Barb*

        Agreed on this. I don’t want to stress you out, but do you have any way of knowing or asking the colors on stage or on a backdrop?

        I say this because I ended up speaking at an event wearing a beautiful strong shade of turquoise jacket, only to discover I matched the chair I sat in almost completely. On camera I would have looked like a head and hands. I love scarves so usually I’d have that to set off the jacket as a preventive measure in case I had dressed in camouflage this way. This time, alas, no scarf.

  20. Interview follow up faux pas?*

    Okay so I had an interview yesterday for a REALLY cool opportunity at an interesting organisation. Without getting too into it, we spent part of the interview talking about the structure of my current org, and some of the info I gave my interviewer turned out to be wrong. A part of the org was shut down and I didn’t realise it until after the interview. If she googled my company, it would be easy to see this. So in my follow up email, I included a couple sentences correcting what I’d said in the interview.

    Hiring managers, would this be a dealbreaker for a candidate for you? (For me it wouldn’t, but that’s just me.) There’s a lot of chaos in my org, which is why I’m looking to leave, and also why I didn’t know part of it had shut down. But I didn’t want to tell my interviewer that.

    1. Interview follow up faux pas?*

      Some additional context: I’m in a senior management position interviewing for a senior management position.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I’m not a hiring manager, but this seems like a non-issue. Unless you were doing a very specific skills test where you had to memorize and name every department within your organization’s structure, it’s not going to matter that one part (that clearly was unrelated to you) got shut down.

      Fwiw I think it’s fine to share your reason for leaving with your interviewer: “there’s been a lot of upheaval in my company and I’m looking for something more stable”. That’s not shameful or bashing your company at all. Random departments getting shutdown without your awareness would certainly support that, and would not make an interviewer think less of you.

  21. jaybird*

    I find it very hard to assert myself to my boss around things that I think I am good at and enjoy, but don’t really have any standing to “claim”. It’s a tiny team (just boss, me and a peer) and I think it’s fair to say he has some control or micromanaging tendencies. so for instance in a previous job I did some public facing presentations on our industry – I think I did well, the metrics/feedback were good, and I enjoyed designing and delivering them. When I was being interviewed and hired for this job I was under the impression that this was part of what made me interesting to them. However, now, the events in the new role that would be analogous I feel like I am on a very short leash and the boss really dictates everything about the presentations. I revised the slides last time around, and it seemed like he was ok with it when I suggested and showed them to him, but then the day before he made lots of changes and insisted on adding on a bit where he talked.

    I hope that’s clearish in anonymised kind of way… but is there any way to reclaim a bit of authority here? It’s in my job description that I’m responsible for planning (events) but he always makes a point of introducing himself as “I help Jaybird plan (events)” or “Jaybird and I work together in planning (events)”. It’s plausible that my role was always supposed to just execute his plans but I feel like I’m being paid a lot more than that, and it’s not what I expected from the interview/job description, and it doesn’t seem like that’s how it works in other departments. I’ve been here a year already and it’s wearing me down a bit.

    1. Synaptically Unique*

      Did this behavior start later or was it like this from the beginning? It’s reasonable to have a “ramp up” period (and a year would be reasonable in my field) before letting new staff be independent. It’s reasonable to let an experienced person do their thing and only step in after there have been mistakes or problems (and the new person not recognizing their mistakes or taking responsibility for them is, sadly, pretty common). If either of these options might be part of what’s going on, you should have a frank conversation about expectations and future handling of the tasks. If it’s just that you work for a perfectionist/persnickety micromanager, this isn’t going to change.

    2. Jeneral*

      I would talk to him and start job searching. I’m 15 months into a similar situation. I’ve realized that in my case this is just the way the organization has configured my role and others, and they aren’t going to change that. They were excited in the interview by the expertise I brought, but they don’t actually want to change the way they’ve always organized things to give me the chance to use it. In your case it might be more of a personality/style issue with your boss. It sounds worth trying a straightforward conversation. In my case, I have other reasons for hob searching so it’s not worth the investment

  22. Falling Diphthong*

    Zeno’s Baked Good, Field Experiment Results:

    Made a lot of cookies this weekend and sent some in to my spouse’s work.

    Monday am: 3 plates of roughly 8 cookies each. (I didn’t want them to mush together in transit.)
    Tuesday am: 3 plates, each with 1 cookie.
    Tuesday pm: 1.5 cookies
    Wednesday am: 1 cookie
    Wednesday pm: 0 cookies

    Possibly relevant background:
    Spouse works in a research lab.
    I may have thrown off the results by sending in 2 types of flat cookie, easy to break into smaller fractions, and one soft plump cookie that is hard to divide without a knife. The last was the holdout survivor whole cookie.

    1. Fluff*

      So the cookie half life is 8 hours dependent on level of surrounding cookies.
      Once the level is down to 3, the half life increases as the dose decreases.
      – 24 -> 12 > 6 > 3. Then half life mysteriously increases to 24 hours.
      – 3 > 1.5.

      This study is limited by the heterogeneity of cookies and their variable reduction. Since doses in some can be split with cookie splitters and not others, these finding support for study is needed with larger cookie cohorts including a control group.

      2. Tio*

        I think for proper data study you need to know the number of in office subjects, otherwise it may be difficult to scale results. (Unless you don’t want to scale, lol.) But I’d love to know the person-to-taken-cookie ratio.

      4. Rekha3.14*

        perhaps they work with Canadians? there’s always a last treat that’ll sit there… and sit there… and then you gotta ask around if anyone else wants it before you take it… I’ve never consciously thought about the cleanup, just that usually I’ve already had one, and someone else might want it/haven’t had one yet…

        All rules out the window at home though. Finishing means I can clean the plate or container away and get it off the table or counter!

    2. Strive to Excel*

      I’m howling!

      We had someone bring in pastries on Monday. Monday morning: 8 pastries. Tuesday morning: 1 whole pastry and 3 half pastries (apple fritters apparently unpopular). Wednesday morning: half an apple fritter. Gone by Wednesday evening.

    3. MissMaple*

      Ah, someone after my own heart. I need more data for the analysis to compare to my own research…cookie type? Weather/humidity? Meetings/day? :)

      1. Tio*

        Don’t forget cookie location, average traffic, number of in office subjects, and reduction per hour by flavor since it was a multi-flavor/shape variant.

        I wish I could put out a trail cam and see the number of respondents! Picture me behind a potted plant with a clipboard taking notes

        1. MissMaple*

          Love it! I’m not saying I’ve done large scale cookie-related tests on my coworkers, but I’m also not saying I don’t have a spreadsheet :)

    4. Anontoday*

      In my workplace all cookies would have been gone by 3pm the first day! We’re a very food driven workplace.

    5. Trout 'Waver*

      This is a huge pet peeve to me. Most people in the world will never bring in cookies, wouldn’t dream of eating the last cookie (who knows whether they’re worried about their reputation, have a hang-up with food, or don’t want to clean up afterwards), but will happily grab a whole handful of cookies 2-7.

      These people are the net takers in a social environment. They are the drain on society that inhibits growth and sharing. They are the village idiot in the commons, creating the tragedy of the commons.

      A person who views taking the last cookie as a stigma is a hypocrite if they take the second-to-last cookie. Because that’s the true “last cookie” if taking the ultimate cookie is wrong.

      I feel strongly about this.

      1. Phony Genius*

        We had a similar phenomenon back when people would bring in donuts (which is exceedingly rare now). The box would quickly reduce down to one donut. Then a half-donut, followed later by a quarter-donut. Then either that donut fragment would remain indefinitely or it would continue being subdivided, almost to a sub-molecular level. I think this was partially due to nobody wanting to be the one to clean up after the last donut molecule had been consumed.

      2. Anon for This*

        I make it a point to take the last cookie (and only the last cookie.) As noted, it often sits there unclaimed. I do this for two reasons. 1. if there is only one left, I only eat one! 2. I’m the boss, so I leave the best cookies for the team, but still get to have one. And I do help clean up if necessary.

        It works for us.

    6. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I used to bring in candies to keep in a bowl on my desk at a 24:7 location.
      Day shift Front half of the week – would take 10-15 pieces per shift – very picky on type
      Day shift Back half – would take 15-20 pieces per shift – less picky about type
      Night shift Front half – would always leave about 1/3 of the bowl and definitely had preferences
      Night shift back half – bowl emptied every night. It did not matter if the entire bowl was the rejects from the other shifts. Gone.

  23. chocolate muffins*

    Work joys thread! My lab had a meeting with a visitor who presented some very cool data that I loved learning about. What made you happy at work this week?

    1. Justin*

      Whole week spent at a work retreat and we had a really great time, including a great karaoke night and several dance parties.

      We also got a lot of work done.

    2. AnonymousOctopus*

      It’s been a few weeks since I started my new job. It’s the same role as the last company but my new workplace is well-run and much more humane regarding staffing levels, which means I have much more downtime in my workday. I needed something to do with my hands so I bought a few embroidery craft kits and just finished my first project! I gifted the finished piece to a kind neighbor of mine who was thrilled. I can’t believe I’m earning money while also doing a fun creative craft. I love my new job!

    3. Paint N Drip*

      Most people in my office were at a conference 4/5 days this week, and it has been gloriously quiet! My introvert heart has grown 3 sizes

    5. Unkempt Flatware*

      I’m a transportation planner so my job is all-day-every-day transportation. But this grant I’m working on focuses on historical displacement of peoples and communities. So I got to do a ton of research on what was going on in my city after WWII to present. It was so much fun and refreshing.

    6. Your friendly academic advisor*

      I’m an academic advisor at a large public university. I meet with students all day, every day but yesterday I had a really special interaction with a student who realized during our appointment that they would be able to graduate soon. The student got very emotional about this and began to cry and I was able to affirm that it’s understandable to have big emotions about finishing a degree you’ve worked so long and hard to get.

      1. Pam Adams*

        This is one of the best things about the job. I also love attending Commencement to see them celebrate!

    7. Irish Teacher.*

      We had our Open Night last night and a lot of parents and children (10-12 year olds who will be coming to secondary in a year or two) seemed to enjoy what I had to show them.

    8. MissMaple*

      I was considering switching projects, but when I made my decisions to stay, my supervisor said it was great news because he really likes our team and the rapport we’ve developed over the last 6 months :)

    9. allathian*

      Oops, missed this and posted below, but a presentation I did with my coworker and manager went really well and got a positive response. Yay!

  24. Justin*

    Currently flying back from a week in CA at a work retreat. I missed my son and dog but I really like my colleagues, we got a lot of work done, and we had a lot of fun.

    We even did a team building thing that was… really fun? I was surprised I loved it. A lot of it went to the team we hired to run that event – presentation matters a lot for enthusiasm.

  25. Yes And*

    LinkedIn recruiter conversation left me flummoxed. Is this as weird as it feels?

    Context: I live in City A, and work in City B. City A is the epicenter of my niche sub-industry. I love everything about my job except the commute, and while I’m not actively looking to leave, it would be nice to stay within City A and have a more reasonable commute. I’m paid at about market rate for my sub-industry, but my sub-industry is generally lower paying within the broader industry, and it would be nice to make more money as well.

    So, recruiter cold-contacts me on Linked In. Before I responded, I looked into his firm, and it looked legit.
    Recruiter: “Hi [Yes And], Are you keeping an eye out for new roles by chance? If so, I am currently working with a highly regarded nonprofit client in the [niche sub-industry] space in [City A] that is looking to hire a new [my exact current title] similar to yourself. They can pay up to [80% of my current salary] and are setting up interviews early next week. Does this sound like a role you’d be interested in discussing? [Recruiter’s signature]”
    Me: “Hi [Recruiter], I might be interested in the right opportunity that got me back into [City A] in [broader industry], but my absolute floor is [a healthy raise from my current salary]. If you have anything in that range, please let me know.”
    Recruiter: “Got it, we do have another role that fits that criteria. Do you have a few minutes to speak this morning?”
    Me: “I’m available until 11:00 this morning. You can reach me at [my phone number].”

    And then I never heard from him again.

    This is just normal human flightiness, right? A busy person who lost track of one cold-call prospect? Because my lizard brain is screaming it’s some sort of scam, but I can’t imagine what the end game would be.

    1. ferrina*

      Yep, sounds like normal human flightiness. I don’t know how on earth a scammer would have gotten anything useful out of that.

      If I were writing a script for Leverage, maybe they had a link for their firm that when you looked up the recruiter and landed on their firm, they actually installed a keystroke logger as a piggieback off of the basic cookies. They now have your information. Sophie will happen to run into you at a cafe and befriend you. Parker will lift your security badge while you are chatting with Sophie. They’ll break into your current company using your credentials. But don’t worry, your company is definitely the bad guy, because the Leverage crew only targets bad guys.

    2. Seven times*

      There’s nothing screaming “scam” here. The recruiter could easily have been tied up or it may have slipped for a number of reasons. The role they had may also not have been the match you hoped for. It’s disappointing that they never reached out again, but again, doesn’t seem scammy.

    4. Parenthesis Guy*

      It doesn’t sound like normal human flightiness. It sounds like the recruiter thought he had a position that paid more and for whatever reason discovered that position was no longer available. Without the position, he had no reason to call you, so he didn’t.

      1. Chocolate Covered Cotton*

        Well, no reason other than professionalism, maintaining a solid contact for future potential business, and basic courtesy.

  26. allathian*

    Work joys this week? My coworker and I together with our manager held a presentation about our job function and what we can do to help others serve our customers better. We had about 80 attendees, most were regular internal customers already. Our Q&A sparked a great discussion, too.

    What’s your work joy?

  27. HugeTractsofLand*

    I’m trying to find a new job that centers around project management. I have a background in non-profits/education, and I’ve always been the go-to for thorny new initiatives that need to be broken down into clear timelines/goals/stakeholders. I get a ton of satisfaction from ushering a large-scale project to its completion and working with multiple teams. What kinds of roles emphasize that kind of work? And if you are literally a Project Manager right now, what peaks and pitfalls should I expect?

    1. Strive to Excel*

      Construction or construction-adjacent roles? That doesn’t match your background as much, but there’s often significant regulatory hoops to jump through to start which you’d likely be good at, and in terms of watching a project complete there’s a very tangible feedback cycle!

    2. Wordybird*

      I’m a specialized type of PM (though PM is not my title), and I find that the biggest pitfall is acting like everyone’s work parent and being treated as such. This is definitely in part because of company culture but I spend a not-small amount of my time sending people reminders that they ignore until it’s convenient for them and/or being required to make exceptions for certain people or certain projects that mess up protocols, timelines, budgets, etc. with the expectation that I will “make it happen.” Since I don’t directly bring in money or create the work product, I’m sometimes treated as a second-class citizen within the organization who doesn’t have the authority to enforce the guidelines each project is supposed to follow. My boss and my grandboss always have my back but they don’t always have the power to push back when other departments or other C-suite execs ask for last-minute changes or expect a project that was pushed through in half the time needed to be perfect.

      Any time that I have tried to introduce new procedures or ideas, it has to go through so many departments and people that it quickly goes off-track or stays parked on someone’s desk forever. I have tried in vain to get our department to use a particular project management software but I keep being told that “a few people” (who are never named) would never learn it or use it so we can’t suggest it or try it. Sigh.

  28. Daisy*

    Do you have any recommendations on fields a person could go into if they have a basic level of coding knowledge + strong research/writing skills?

    I’m coming out of academics and my subdiscipline doesn’t have a direct corollary in industry. I was applying for entry-level Python programming positions, but…it looks like the people from the mass wave of tech layoffs a couple years back are still working their way through the system. I have a friend on the inside for two hiring cycles on these positions, and their job ads have racked up 1000+ applications within two hours of being posted. It seems unlikely I’d be able to break in.

    So, I was thinking of applying for jobs in (or going back for a Master’s in) business analytics. Do you have any feel for the job market there? I don’t want to commit time and money to another situation where the job market is already known to be very difficult…

    1. ferrina*

      I work in a field adjacent to business analytics (corporate consulting with a market research and analytics division), and it’s pretty competitive right now. I wouldn’t recommend investing in a masters yet, but it’s worth applying to job openings if you’re interested. It’s always interesting whose resume rises to the top and is often very based on that particular company’s needs- worth throwing a few applications to the void and seeing if anyone bites.

    2. DrSalty*

      Strong research and writing skills could be useful in technical or medical (depending on your background) writing.

    4. Excel Gardener*

      I have a similar background and work as a systems analyst (similar to business analyst bit more operations focused). I get the impression the job market is ok, better than pure tech roles, but not amazing either. However good enough you should be able to find something. There are also some finance analyst positions that don’t necessarily require a finance education.

      Also, I know they’re not as sexy as Python, but some familiarity with advanced Excel, SQL, and BI tools like PowerBI goes a long way on the job market ime.

    5. Pandas*

      Do you have any interest in GIS? Python is the automation language of choice for most GIS software so you’d still be able to use those skills, and lots of people in this field only have tangentially related undergraduate degrees. Depending on the role, there’s also potential for research and writing. You might be able to make it work with a GIS certificate or you might need a masters in GIS/geography depending on the job market for GIS professionals in your area.

      1. Daisy*

        GIS is something I’ve done in the past in a research capacity, actually, and I’ve really enjoyed it. I don’t think my skills are current, though– any idea what I’d need to do to get my foot in the door again?

    7. oops*

      I would maybe take the strategy of getting a role that relies more heavily on communication, such as product marketing, technical documentation, or even customer success/support, perhaps focusing on companies with data-oriented products services. Definitely talk about your python experience even if that isn’t an explicit requirement of the job because it’ll help you stand out. There are also often times data analyst or coordinator roles that are light on specific skill requirements, so some python, the ability to communicate well, and being in the workforce already would put you ahead of others.

      I would not, however, recommend you get the degree first. Industry doesn’t prize credentials in specific disciplines the way academia does, a lot of this knowledge is available for free now, and data roles and titles can be kind of confusing, so getting paid to do something adjacent that will help you get started on the path is a much better bet than paying for more education. If you want the degree later, once you know what kind of data work you like, there’s a good chance your company will pay for part of it, and you’ll be earning while you’re learning in the meantime.

  29. Fluffernutter*

    Any nurses that came from a career change and loving it? I’m in marketing right now, 32, and feeling burned out. After some health scares in the family, I’ve become interested in switching to nursing but I’m not confident since I’m not the greatest at STEM subjects and I’m introverted.

    1. Paint N Drip*

      I actually liked working in the medical field as an introvert, because I was mostly working with one person at a time. My area offers free CNA training and the community college has (low cost but not free) weekend MA classes, maybe you could dip your toe in that way? In terms of STEM schooling and work, it’s ALWAYS easier to learn when it’s applicable so I hope you’ll give yourself some grace there

    2. Joielle*

      A friend of mine went to school for journalism, worked as a journalist for a while, and then trained as a nurse after a few newspapers folded and he was having a hard time finding another traditional journalism job in the area. He’s an ER nurse now and loves it. I think he was always pretty strong on STEM subjects though, which is why he chose nursing as his second career.

    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      LPN and RN courses are intense on the STEM.

      I wouldn’t worry as much about the introvert stuff if you’re the kind of introvert who is OK with people when you’re in your “own space” — patients will come to you and there will be an implicit agenda.

      But there could be other healthcare related roles that keep your heart happy. Even if it’s just shifting to marketing for a health-related nonprofit. Different speed, different method might be enough.

    4. Raisineye*

      You could also look into Medical Technology/ medical lab science. I was into medical stuff, but not a people person really. it’s working with body fluids, testing. I really enjoy the work although some dislike as it can be repetitive, an aspect I generally don’t mind. I started our with social work type career and moved to med tech when I was in my late 20s and do not regret.

  30. BleepSheep*

    How often do you all have to cancel your weekend plans due to workload? Is this a reasonable thing to bring up in interviews?

    This is the 7th or 8th time this year I’ve canceled my plans due to work, I’m just feeling really bummed I won’t get to see my family for a milestone birthday for one of my older relatives on Saturday.

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      Rarely. And it has never been that I had to. I chose to. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. It is a big deal and not okay.

    4. EngGirl*

      Rarely if ever. I guess some of this depends on your level and industry, but I hold on to my personal time as firmly as possible and if there’s a workload issue that’s going to impact actual plans I have then I will be fairly blunt with my supervisor about what I can and cannot accomplish.

      If you’re interviewing I don’t think it’s unreasonable to bring up. I’d probably phrase it as asking what a typical week looks like and ask about work life balance. If you’re in an industry that requires weekend coverage you could ask about that schedule as well. Try to remember that in interviews you’re interviewing them as well, especially if you currently have a job so go into it with the attitude that you’re trying to find the right fit.

    5. HugeTractsofLand*

      I work in education where work/life balance is notoriously unbalanced, and I still haven’t had to cancel weekend plans to complete work. Some late nights, or weeks of late nights? Yes. But events happening on your own time (i.e. the weekend) get priority. Is someone giving you an unreasonable deadline, or specifically telling you to use the weekend, or are you skipping the event out of a sense of work guilt? All of those are bad signs for different reasons.

      I think in interviews you could say “I’m looking for better work/life balance, as my last position required excessive amounts of weekend work.”

    6. ferrina*

      Only at Toxic OldJob.

      At Toxic OldJob, we were constantly understaffed and mismanaged. Any time I tried to take PTO, I ended up working half the time. Weekends and evenings could be compromised at a moments notice.

      At Sane Job, I occasionally work nights or weekends, but I usually know about it in advance. My team coordinates to try to help each other. We have a really busy season in the late fall and winter where we know we’ll likely need to work weekends/evenings, but we try to carve out a few days that are untouchable and ensure that we have coverage. If someone had to cancel important family plans, there would be a serious discussion with their manager so it didn’t happen again.

      1. East Coast Commenter*

        Depends on the job/industry for sure. I work in Biglaw and have definitely cancelled/missed plans multiple times this year, and generally don’t make plans during the week other than casual plans where both sides know it might get derailed by work. Part of it is also showing up to as much as you can. I’ll go on a weekend trip with my friends, but everyone knows I might skip the three hour hike on Sunday morning to work or that I’ll get there Thursday night like everyone else won’t be able to do anything Friday, and they try to plan the things I especially want to do on another day.

    7. CTT*

      I have never had to cancel weekend plans because of work, but I’m an attorney in BigLaw and there definitely have been situations when I arranged weekend plans around work. Sometimes that’s because there was too much work to get done in the week, and other times it’s because I knew the only time I could concentrate on something difficult would be if there were no emails or calls interrupting me, so that would be more optional. But I’ve never had to cancel anything last minute because of work.

    8. Zephy*

      I have never had to cancel weekend plans for work, but I also am at just about the lowest level possible for my role. I don’t aspire to management or really even IC levels where I could be reasonably expected to have to cancel plans for work – I don’t want to be that damn important, ykwim?

      1. Zephy*

        My job also doesn’t have real “emergencies” – even on the rare occasion that something does come up that needs to be resolved urgently, no one is in danger if it waits until the next business day. There is zero reason anyone in my office should need to talk to me, specifically, while I’m not here – anything that comes up can either wait until I’m here or be handled by someone else.

    9. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Is it too late for you to cancel your work plans? Go to your family event, tell work that “something came up.” You will absolutely regret missing the family event far more than you’ll regret any work repercussions that might come of not working on Saturday. And also – can you still work some of the time if it’s absolutely necessary but also go to the party?

    10. Tio*

      Never. When was at a job that required me to come in every other Saturday, I knew that ahead of time. If an emergency had come up and I wasn’t available, I wasn’t available. At every other job I have never needed to work weekends, and if they had asked late enough that I had plans… I had plans.

      This might be different if you were in an on-call role, but I feel like you aren’t?

    11. PrincessFlyingHedgehog*

      I haven’t done this since ToxicOldGrandBoss (so, like 3 or more years ago). I do occasionally need to work an event on a weekend day, but I am notified of this months in advance.

    12. Joielle*

      I used to a LOT, for a previous job with a specific busy season. But I got sick of doing that and left – so in my current job, never.

      And yeah, totally reasonable to bring up in interviews. When I was looking to leave that earlier job, one of my questions for interviewers was “To be totally frank, one of the reasons I’m looking to leave my current role is that there’s a lot of unpredictable evening and weekend work and it makes it hard to commit to plans or have a life outside work. Of course, I understand that things come up and I’m totally fine putting in extra hours on occasion, but I’m wondering what the work-life balance is like here and how often your team works on weekends.”

      You can tell a lot from the way they answer that question – the actual answer, but also the phrasing, tone of voice, body language, etc. Trust your gut.

    13. Qwerty*

      Startup person – at one of my startups, I stopped making weekend plans because I knew I’d be working. Thanksgiving that year was “maybe I’ll come, maybe I won’t, maybe I’ll show up with a couple coworkers”

      Even now, I bake in an intent to work for an afternoon each weekend. Doesn’t mean I always do it, but its easier to plan on some dedicated work time that I budget around. I usually spend that on things that need heads down time (like this weekend I’m writing up a project that we recently did because I need a couple hours without interruption and I’m easily distracted.)

      When I wasn’t in startups, this was probably a quarterly occurrance because I’m in tech and some things can only be done on weekends or occasionally a tough deadline comes up.

    14. Alex*

      Only once.

      It was when I was a nanny, and the family I worked for had another baby. I was called in for a Friday evening when the Mom went into labor with the second kid.

      This wasn’t entirely unexpected though, as she was nearing her due date and I’d agree to be on call to take care of kiddo #1 when she needed to go to the hospital. She was about 5 days early.

      I think that is a reasonable request. Beyond that, asking someone to cancel plans on their day off should be only for dire emergencies in certain kinds of jobs. Emergency response workers of various kinds, for example. Otherwise, requests to do so are pretty unreasonable.

    17. allathian*

      Only once in my 17 years at my current job, but it was a special case, I was exeptionally on call over the weekend and got 50% comp time.

    18. Llellayena*

      Not since one memorable time in retail when I scheduled my birthday party, requested the day off, invited everyone so they could clear their schedules and then was told I was working that day (closing shift) and had to reschedule my party. Only two people could make the rescheduled day…

      1. BleepSheep*

        It’s 2 hours away and I was going to stay overnight, I need to work both days so I just can’t make it work.

    20. JHunz*

      I have literally never canceled weekend plans to work instead. There have been a few crunch times in the past where I knew in advance that making weekend plans would be a bad idea, but those have mostly disappeared now as well.

      8 times in a year would definitely be in the “look for a new job” category for me.

    22. Hyaline*

      Rare to never but uhhhh I also have been known to burn the candle at every conceivable angle so I probably *should* cancel more often!

      I think you can absolutely ask about company culture when it comes to working outside “normal” work hours, what it looks like when facing tough deadlines (and how often that happens), general work/life balance…but to be fair, the interviewer may be out of touch or unwilling to say “Oh yeah, we definitely demand people work unreasonable hours, all the time!” If it’s important, maybe see if you can talk to current employees of places you interview.

    23. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      My old job? Often. But also I would NEVER cancel a milestone birthday. My job could suck it. No matter how important they thought it was, there was nobody dying if I didn’t come in the second they ask.

      The job I took after I decided I would rather have a lower salary and have my time be my time? Never. I do have to work 2 Saturdays a year, but they are scheduled events, not surprises.

    24. Ellen Ripley*

      It’s happened to me once this year.

      And I don’t make a lot of weekend plans. If “hang out on the couch and craft” counted as plans, it would be closer to 10.

      It sucks and I’m sorry. I hope by next year you have your weekends for yourself again. Whether it’s by a new job, or a more reasonable workload in this job.

    26. Roland*

      I don’t think ever once. At most I know not to schedule certain things on the weekend that I’m on call. And even that I can usually swap with someone.

    27. Been There*

      Never. I’ve had to work on the weekend once in this job and it was planned in advance and everybody agreed on the timing.

  31. Direct Me*

    What are your favorite resources to learn about management & leadership (besides this blog of course!)?

    Long story short, I’ve been begging for management training that my small company will never provide. It’s been 2.5 years, and I am now being promoted into a director role. I’ve been muddling through well enough with help from this blog and bouncing things off my network, and have received positive feedback from the teams I handle which makes me feel like I am on the right track. I just can’t help but feel like there should be a vested interest in my growth as a manager from above and there…isn’t.

    If I want to grow I have to handle it myself, and on my own time & dime, so if people have any free resources or book recommendations I’d love to hear them!

    1. ferrina*

      I love Brene Brown. She’s got a website and podcast that I really enjoyed. She does a mix of emotional intelligence and leadership tactics.

    2. Adipose*

      Patty Azzarello’s book Rise is great for women growing in their careers, especially in managing the shift in mindset as you move from individual contributor to people manager to higher levels of management.

      John C. Maxwell’s The 360°Leader may also be worth a look; my memory of that he speaks a lot to developing influence based on more than position (a lead from anywhere in the org chart approach, but also potentially useful to someone moving up).

      I also like Harvard Business Review’s Management Tip of the Day email — it’s a free, daily, short article on a topic. not every day is relevant to me, but I also find them good reminders or food for more thought.

    3. Pods*

      Harvard Business Review’s podcasts are great for this. Woman at Work is a good one.

      Fixable is a great podcast, too.

      One thing that’s great about these is they deliver high value in about 35 minutes with back catalogs that cover a huge range of leadership and management topics.

  32. riverofmolecules*

    I am curious about how others’ thoughts and experiences.

    I am thinking about putting my résumé out there already after having been in a new role for only a few months. I love many parts of the job, but I am struggling with the disorganization and my work load. My (senior VP) manager left suddenly soon after I joined and I was assigned to split my time between two VPs as my managers, but they don’t coordinate to make sure they give me a half-plate each, so I am at about two full plates.

    The issue is that when I go to update my résumé with my current job, a lot of it is projects that are *in process*. They’re coming together well, but my accomplishments are more process-oriented at this point (created the process for X, collaborated with Y, planned and implemented Z so that it’s on track for launch in a month or two) rather than being able to point to finished programs/events/products.

    Part of the problem is the disorganization, things I would have liked to be much further along now are held up by (for example) a VP not being responsive or wanting a lot of back-and-forth rather than making and committing to decisions despite my attempting to manage up (which I absolutely hate doing).

    Is this a situation where people just skip the job they’re leaving quickly on the résumé? Have people just focused on those process-oriented accomplishments? I am aware of the benefit of just…sticking it out for a year at least and getting some more finished projects under my belt, but I am also keeping an eye out for opportunities that may pop up before then.

    1. ferrina*

      You don’t have accomplishments yet.

      Sorry, but it’s really hard (and often impossible) to have resume-worthy accomplishments after just a few months. If what you’ve done is develop theories for how processes could work, that’s not really an accomplishment that you can put on a resume. I do a lot of process development and change management, so I feel for you- good process development is a true skill. But you don’t know how good the process is until it’s been implemented; that’s where the resume-worthy accomplishments come from.

      In the meantime, have you tried telling your bosses “I don’t have the bandwidth- I can only take care of it if we postpone Project Z?” They are probably assuming that you are managing your own bandwidth, not that they should be communicating to manage it for you (this may be a reasonable assumption, depending on how senior your role is).

      1. riverofmolecules*

        Yes, I’ve brought it up directly with them starting months ago, I’ve brought it up with HR, other people have pointed out the issue. We had a staff retreat session where we all together reviewed the projects we’re doing and even the CEO remarked on how a majority of projects across the org were under me because it was like, “Okay, what’s the next project? Oh, riverofmolecules is speaking again.”

        I think part of it is one the VPs is more conscientious about it, but the other one is still probably too disorganized to move on it. They’re the type to get an idea for something and ask their team to turn around on it within the week, regardless of what’s on the docket. I’ve also talked about how if we keep staff at, say, 80% capacity, then that leaves them room to act on last-minute or urgent assignments (let alone, be sick, go on vacation, etc.), vs keeping everyone at 110+% capacity and still throw more things on top.

        1. ferrina*

          Start adding buffer time to projects. You can also have backburner projects that can easily be moved- that way the team is technically at 100% capacity, but 20% of that can easily be moved (don’t tell the boss that these are back-burner projects, the useful jargon is ‘ongoing internal initiatives’). That will help the team have a little more bandwidth. And you need to force the boss to pick what their priority is. This can be done in a very friendly way:
          “Unfortunately, we can only do that if we push Project Z’s deadline back by two weeks. Are you okay with pushing Project Z? Or we could keep Project Z’s deadline and get you Project A by the eleventy-ninth.”

          This can be exhausting and I understand why you are job searching.

        2. Chocolate Covered Cotton*

          If a senior manager left and they don’t seem to be doing anything to replace them, then operating at 110% capacity is how they want to operate. They are and will remain chronically understaffed because that’s how they want it be.

          Don’t expect it to change.

  33. Not a hostile takeover*

    I work for a large multi-national company, and recently made a lateral move into a new division. This new division exists because it was previously a smaller co, acquired by my parent company, 1.5 years ago. I saw it as a great opportunity (and new division leadership sold it as such) to help new division get on all the parent company systems, build their roadmap, etc.

    However, that’s not what is happening. New division leadership is VERY resistant to consolidating their systems and processes. New division is losing $$$ like crazy, and new division leaders told me as recently as last week, “We don’t take direction from {parent company}. If you’re having conversations with them, I need you to take notes but not act.”

    Any advice is welcome! (leave altogether, go back to old division, keep trying to change hearts/minds, etc)

    1. ferrina*

      Change only happens in 2 ways:
      1) Leadership wants change and backs change.
      2) Change is so sneaky that by the time that leadership realizes that it’s done, it’s too much trouble to undo it.

      Though at this point I wouldn’t bother. Sounds like new division is causing enough problems that parent company will step in at some point, and that’s always dicey (will they decide to close the division? Keep it but clean house?) If your company is open to transfers, get out of that division and watch it burn from afar.

    2. Strive to Excel*

      “We don’t take direction from {parent company}” – run like your pants are full of bees. This will not end well. Go back to an old division or leave, but don’t stay there.

      1. Tio*

        This, in particular, should be reported to whoever sent you over. Were you specifically put there to onboard them? What tools and authority do you have? How are you reporting back to parent company what your progress and roadblocks are?

        You should be raising this loudly to parent company so that you don’t feel so much like you’re getting steamrolled, and they have the warning to step in and throw their muscle around. What you don’t want is for them to ask for progress and you to have none to show and look like you just got pushed around without telling them of the problems.

      2. Chocolate Covered Cotton*

        Report to the parent company exactly what the leadership said to you verbatim and ask for their advice. Try for a tone that isn’t “tattling” but matter of fact description of a problem that’s above your paygrade to solve and let them solve it.

        If you don’t get a positive response within a week, request a transfer back to your old position or to another and start job-searching so you’ll have options if the parent company doesn’t fix this. If they don’t fix it, they’ve set you up to fail, having made you responsible for making changes that you don’t have the authority to make.

    3. PX*

      Play politics if you’re good at it? New division losing money with resistant leadership sounds like the parent company will be making changes to that leadership team soon (if they are in any way competent). So you could choose to position yourself for a more impactful role if you a) have enough network/leverage in the parent company to position yourself appropriately and b) want to do that.

      You could also choose to wait it out (I assume by losing money they are more likely to simply change leadership than kill the division completely because they clearly bought it for a reason) but that can be tricky.

      I definitely wouldnt be trying to change hearts and minds, but if all else fails, I’d be looking to go back to old division probably.

    4. Kuleta*

      Agree with leaving, whether altogether or back to old division.

      A PastEmployer of mine opened a new branch office by acquiring a smaller firm. Some time after I left, they closed that office. Then I learned that several executives had urged against the acquisition to start with, but management didn’t listen.

      That was just one of the errors that eventually forced PastEmployer to merge with a bigger outfit in the industry, in order to survive. Thank goodness I left before the decline really started.

    6. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

      If you really like working for the parent company, get back ASAP. Otherwise find another job.
      With the new division losing this much money, they may be looking to sell off the division, and you’ll be completely left to the wayside.

  34. Honoria Lucasta*

    How should you respond when somebody at work screwed up and is apologizing for it? My Midwest-x-South background makes my default response be to minimize the issue (“it happens!” “oh well” “no worries” etc). But this is a medium to big deal. My moving expense reimbursement has been delayed by more than 6 weeks because the admin didn’t route documents correctly; she just figured it out and sent an email apologizing profusely. I don’t know how to reply or if I even should.

    I’m the lowest-ranking member of the (academic) department, and she just started the position this summer, if that information is relevant.

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Respond the way you’d normally be inclined as a Midwest-x-South person, step away for half an hour, and then come back and remove any unnecessary niceties.

      I do think her being new probably has a lot to do with it and she sounds properly mortified, so I don’t think you need to respond sternly to her email or anything. But you can probably say something like “Thank you for the apology. Can you let me know if you need anything else from me in order to move this forward / get this resolved by $Date / whatever else you want to say to help resolve the problem?” so that she knows you acknowledged it but you’re not acting like it was okay that she messed this up.

    3. EngGirl*

      Like others have said “I appreciate that” is a good tone to take. If she hadn’t apologized profusely I’d be more worried she didn’t understand the gravity of the situation, but it sounds like she does and honestly she’s probably kicking herself over it more than you ever could.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I appreciate you letting me know.

      and then…

      Is there anybody we can speak to in the finance department about getting this prioritized?

      1. Tio*

        Yeah. Accept the apology, but an apology doesn’t fix things, and this is a big financial hit to you. Talk to someone about who can fix this and if possible if they have an employee relief fund that can be used to smooth the time between when the money should have come and when it is.

    6. Cordelia*

      “Thanks for your apology, I appreciate it. What can we do to get the reimbursement expedited? Is there someone I need to contact?”

      An apology is fine, but it’s more important for the person to show they are taking steps to resolve the problem they have caused. She might not know how to do this, which is fine, but I think you can ask that she finds out.

  35. Area Woman*

    I have a music hobby that I enjoy and have been doing for over a decade in a community group. In the last few years I have also been moving up at work and now supervise a small team. They are really great and supportive, but often do things here and there to be nice for me that I would normally discourage, such as giving me birthday presents.

    Given that, they have now said they want to come to one of my concerts, would that be weird if I were to tell them about it? In the past I used to put up posters about each one (there are 4 per year) but I am starting to worry some of them may think this is a good way to show the boss they like them. Would you refrain from announcing hobby stuff as a manager? It would be nice if my other coworker peers came to things, but I have been erring on the side of keeping it low key to prevent any issues with my direct reports.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think I wouldn’t go out of my way to advertise it or invite people, but if people asked about attending because they’ve attended in the past, I wouldn’t withhold the information. When you hire someone new, make sure that they know these concerts are not something you expect anyone to attend, just that some people have in the past when you were all same-level colleagues (though you could leave that last bit out).

  36. ecnaseener*

    Just out of curiosity — there seems to be a pervasive belief on the internet that in the US, hiring managers aren’t allowed to discriminate against candidates based on whether they have a car. I’ve seen it crop up in job-interview advice many times, usually along the lines of “if they ask whether you have reliable transportation to work, that’s code for ‘do you have a car’ but they’re not allowed to ask that, so just say yes even if you take the bus.”

    Obviously car ownership is not one of the protected classes that the EEOC lists, and neither is socioeconomic status. Does anyone know where this idea might come from? With most myths I can guess (eg it’s also common to think they can’t ask whether you have kids, but that’s probably a combination of parental status being protected in some jurisdictions + sexist double standards would be a legal liability). But I can’t figure it out in this case. Local laws? Just one of those things that hiring managers are told not to ask about because it would be really bad PR even if there was no legal case?

    1. Nonsense*

      It’s related to socioeconomic status. There’s a pervasive belief that only poor people use public transportation, because they’re obviously too poor to own a car, and public transportation takes longer than driving (sometimes) and operates on fixed schedules so that means the potential employee is might actually *gasp* leave on time in order to catch the bus!

      Socioeconomic status may not be a protected class, but there is significant overlap with other disadvantaged classes have been historical discriminated against so that starts to get real dicey. Also, in today’s world, there’s optics to consider – it doesn’t exactly look great if your company never/rarely hires people without personal vehicles.

        1. Nonsense*

          Well, that’s an even bigger problem on a macro- and microeconomics scale, not to mention accessibility, but in terms of allowable questions in interviews, still not applicable. Have a car or don’t, take the bus or train or don’t, carpool, walk, hitchhike, whatever – as long as you’ll reliably show up for your shift, that’s all that matters.

    2. Mimmy*

      Just something to point out: While car ownership is not a protected category as you mentioned, not having a car could be because the person cannot drive due to a disability or medical condition, such as vision impairment or seizure disorder. Therefore, asking about having a car / reliable transportation could indirectly be discriminatory.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        That was my immediate thought. I could see it getting tricky if an employer asked “do you drive?” and the employee didn’t because of epilepsy or poor vision or any other disability and they didn’t get the job. Could they successfully claim they had been denied the job due to the impact of their disability? I’d guess not, but it certainly seems safer not to risk it.

      2. NoDriving*

        Yep, I’m legally blind and I loathe this question. It means the person equates having reliable transportation with driving. I’ve always responded with a commitment to reliably meet attendance requirements, but in recent years my mobility has been more restricted and I can’t do some of the crazy things I’ve done in the past to get to some offices and I’d have to either stretch the truth or disclose now (my current fulltime job and my several most recent contracts before that – all at least started pre-pandemic- have been mostly remote and have paying for a rideshare if required to come into the office written into the agreement (I always assumed this was a bridge too far and transportation was my responsibility, but the first time I got it the company offered to amend the agreement after they witnessed a particularly problematic trip in via public transit involving unplowed sidewalks, unclear ice, four hours of time, and serious pain for the rest of the day). It’s one of many new things I’m going to have to navigate in future job searches thanks to the pandemic.

    3. miel*

      Interesting question!

      This seems to be a question that crops up more for lower-paid jobs, like factory or retail. And oftentimes, being on time is a big deal in those jobs.

      My best guess is that the hiring manager wants an employee who shows up every day, on time, no excuses, and this is a way to ask about timeliness/ attendance.

      1. ReverseCommuting*

        Not always. Reverse commuting is common here and often folks who travel to suburban offices from other places assume you have to drive to get to the office because that’s what they do. It’s really annoying.

    4. Alex*

      It is my understanding that they are actually allowed to ask anything they want to–they can ask if you have kids or if you are married or if you have a disability.

      However, doing so opens them up to liability, because KNOWING that information can support a discrimination case if the candidate thinks they have been discriminated against. So the “I can’t ask” isn’t “Asking is against the law” it is “Using this information to make a decision is against the law” and so asking has no point, and can hurt the company.

      That said, if you ask someone if they have a car, it is opening the door to possible information that you can’t use in hiring, such as “I have a disability that makes it so I can’t drive,” or “Yes, but my same sex spouse uses it to get to their job” or “Yes, but it is filled with car seats from my gaggle of children.”

    5. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      if the job involves a lot of errand-running or off-site work, asking if the applicant has a car is relevant.

      2. JHunz*

        If your candidate needs to drive a car as part of their role, you’d better be asking whether they have a car and a valid driver’s license, not just whether they have reliable transportation. Those aren’t the same thing.

        1. CarVsReliableTransportation*

          With the caveat that sometimes the employer isn’t clear on when being able to drive is a core job requirement or just how they define reliable transportation.

  37. Stacy Fakename*

    I’m in the process of transitioning from a 15-year passion career in the arts to a more stable business focused career. I quit my job, went to grad school, got an internship, aaaaand now nothing. I know the job market is abysmal, and my “lots of transferable experience but not direct experience” resume just can’t hold up.

    For people who have made huge career jumps in your late 30s or 40s, how did you land that first job?

    1. WestsideStory*

      Ha, lied about my age and started at a junior level.
      Seriously, I left a 20-year career of mostly freelance journalism and got into the book business.
      It did help I had acquired some experience the role required, which I put on my resume and minimized the rest of my background.
      Then I got lucky with that first job, and spent another 20 years in the corporate side.
      I’m on my third career and no one in my current industry has more than the faintest idea of how old I am or what I did before.
      So my advice? Same as I gave my high school friend who needed a new job: color your hair, get your teeth fixed/whitened and get out there. It worked for him too!

    2. Synaptically Unique*

      Part of it was luck – I got lucky with a great boss who was willing to take chance that my transferable experience would actually transfer. She then moved me up quickly when she saw that I was very good at converting related experience into active functionality. Part of it was accepting that I was coming into the new field at a very junior level. What I often see is people making a major change in fields, but expecting to move into a lateral role. It can work, but it often doesn’t. And because it often doesn’t, hiring managers are highly skeptical when they see mid-career applicants who will need a lot of remedial training – often by subordinate staff who may have even been applicants. The best way to move to a new field is to start closer to entry-level than mid-career, learn the basics, then let your transferable leadership skills come out organically. The outcome is likely to be prompt promotions once you’re grounded in the (new) basics

    3. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I did tailor my cover letter and resume to really highlight the transferable experience and also if you can bring something that your unique experience brings that they might not get from someone who followed the traditional path. Show them why your background is a benefit, not a detour

      “During my tenure as a llama groomer, I not only got the detail oriented experience that a teapot polisher needs, I also was in a position to interact with the llama breeders and the llama owners. Additionally I served a niche position as llama coordinator, that allowed me to gain insight into the relationships within the industry and how to manage a diverse group of stakeholders and provide solutions to satisfy everyone’s core demands.

  38. Anon for this*

    Does anyone have any resources or suggestions (books, blogs, schools of thought, mantras) about separating your sense of self-worth from the maintenance of gainful employment?

    I am, of course, working on this in therapy. But I’d like to be able to read about others’ experiences in navigating this. For what it’s worth, I don’t think I’m particularly susceptible to or steeped in ideas about “the Protestant work ethic,” and I’ve read and taken to heart Miya Tokumitsu’s “In the Name of Love.” My issues stem from growing up with one employed parent verbally abusing the other, chronically unemployed/underemployed parent.

    If this is more appropriate for the weekend thread, let me know!

    1. Paint N Drip*

      Frankly I think you’re well on your way, so kudos to you!
      I am no pro but I’d recommend to you trying to enjoy tales/content of folks happily existing – kinda getting into the mindset that living/existing is primary and the other stuff that can separate/stratify us (money, job title, degrees, popularity, etc.) is just… excess. My first thought is the hobbits in LOTR, just doing what they do in the Shire :)

    2. Strive to Excel*

      I don’t have a specific resource to point you to, but I would suggest that this is a good time to explore what you’re good at outside of work as much as possible. I suspect that some of this is tied up in a personal identity of “Anon the productive member of society, where productive = gainfully employed”. So: do you have a passion outside of work? Something you can lean on to develop a sense of “Anon, a super cool person doing X” and use that to turn work into the thing that lets you do X?

      1. Anon for this*

        Funny you should mention that… I’m a writer on the side but fortunately/unfortunately have started getting published, so in addition to “I am only lovable because I have a job that provides income,” I have managed to develop an accompanying brain-weasel of, “I am only lovable as long as I continue to produce publishable work.”

        So I started exploring other hobbies, which brought about another brain-weasel of, “You’re only able to enjoy these hobbies because you have steady income provided to you by your job. You must never lose your job.”

        And around and around I go, haha. I’ve stopped asking people what they “do (implied: for a living)” when I meet them and instead asking about what they like to do, or what they do for fun, which I think is a helpful switch, and I’ve started using my local library for just about everything (to show myself that I can do enjoyable artistic things without being my own wealthy patron, so to speak), but my inner monologue is still soooo consumed by the above thoughts.

        1. Sloanicota*

          I’m working hard on asking people, “so what are you into lately?” instead of “what do you do” when “do” is generally implied to be their paid work. I also like to inquire of myself what I’m into lately! What is fun and exciting for me right now? It’s rarely work. If I have no answers, time to try a bunch of fun diverse new things.

    3. cactus lady*

      Read “Do Nothing” by Celeste Hadlee. Great book. Some of it is aspirational if you work in an office, but it really helps to reframe your mindset around work.

    5. Barnes and Noble Bridge Burner*

      Google “The Nap Ministry.” They have a lot of stuff about how rest is resistance (to the capitalist idea that we must be productive/earn our spot with busy-ness). Rethinking your relationship to rest/productivity may be particularly helpful here. (Also the idea that earning rest is not required–we all deserve rest.)

  39. 09876*

    Not a question, just mad:
    Just found out I’ll have to extend a stay at a conference, FOR NO REASON, which may or may not interrupt plans to go to a family reunion over the weekend (depending on if my flight out gets delayed or not; I would have had PLENTY of buffer time had the original dates went through).
    I’m upset to high hell since this would be the first time seeing some of my family since 2019, and I had SPECIFICALLY planned everything based on the dates I was told I needed to be at the conference. It “wasn’t good enough” so, y’know, hope whatever “we have to do this in person :)” meeting is worth it.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I think that you can reasonably point out that you have pre-existing plans for the weekend, and that if they need to keep you longer at the conference, you’d be expecting for work to get you on a flight that will get you home on time. I’m guessing your reunion is in the city where you live normally, but if it’s not, then I think work needs to fly you there if they need you bad enough at the conference.

  40. Nenny*

    I have a question about how much information to give a candidate during the hiring process. I’m planning to leave for a new position in a brand new organization in about a year – my company knows this and is supportive because I’ll still be working closely with my current organization. In fact, part of my job in the past few years has been creating this new position/organization. In connection with this, we’re starting a large project that needs to be substantially completed about that time. We’re planning on hiring someone to both help with the project and then take over for me when I leave. However, what my current position does not know is that I’m not waiting for this new opportunity and am actively job hunting, both for external (aging parents) and internal (restructuring) reasons. So this person who is being hired may end up in charge sooner than they think. Obviously I don’t want to bring this up when anyone else is around, but I do want this person to know the situation. Do I try and find a way to let them know around the interview time (I’ll probably be giving them a quick tour and can mention it then) or do I wait until they are hired since they will know they will eventually be in charge?

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Which part are you unsure about telling them, the broader scope of the the new org setup and how they’ll be taking over your role when you leave, or specifically that you are looking for a job that isn’t the one they’ll transition into?

      The former I think is fine to tell them, the latter isn’t something I’d share unless I had a job offer in hand. You can only control *this* hiring process; you don’t know how long it will take for you to find other work. Telling someone you’re trying to recruit that you’re actively looking isn’t spectacularly helpful information, and if you did tell them, I think it would come across as being about helping you manage your feelings about leaving for a different job rather than trying to help a newbie.

      1. Nenny*

        There’s a lot of specifics that I can’t go into because they are too identifying, but to hopefully clarify some things.
        The job that I currently have will eventually go away because we’ll eventually be transferring the entire department over to the new organization. However, the entirety of the job won’t transfer for a few more years. So the person coming in needs to know that the plan is for them to take over my job when I leave (there is a 90+% chance I’ll get the new job), but also that the job at the current organization will go away in 3 – 5 years. But I also want to make them aware (without anyone else at my organization finding out) that I’m not necessarily waiting for the “new” job but am actively looking for another job so that they know their promotion may come sooner then they thought. I wouldn’t say that the desire to leave is due to restructuring (that is only annoying if you were around before it started), but would use the “aging parents having health issues” as the reason.

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          No, I understood that, I’m asking which part are you concerned about telling them because to me these are two different things, i.e.

          1) The broader organizational structuring that will see your department spun off into the new company in a few years, and all the stuff that comes with that.
          2) The fact that you’re looking for a new job so the new person may have to take over other elements earlier than anticipated?

          Or is it both?

          I think it’s fine to tell them #1 and think it’s unnecessary to tell them #2. Unless you’ve got a job offer in hand and you know the person is joining the org because they want to work with you specifically, I don’t know what telling them #2 would achieve. Workplaces change, especially over 3-5 years. The new hire may not even still be around by the time the work from your old role would fully transition to the other org if you stuck around! Stuff happens, people leave, and none of that is really worth getting into with a new hire unless they’re reporting directly to you and you don’t want to “bait and switch” them by quitting a week after they start.

    2. Cordelia*

      The candidates have no reason to keep this news a secret on your behalf – are you expecting them not to mention it in the interview, when other interviewers talk about the future of the role? What questions would they be able to ask? You’re putting them in a very difficult position.
      Why is it essential that they know the situation now? It’s not as if you are telling them that actually the promotion they expect isn’t going to happen, you’re saying that it might happen sooner than they think. If you do get another job then they will find out then, but it seems unlikely they wouldn’t take the current job if they knew they would be promoted sooner than expected.

  41. Hypoglycemic rage*

    Hi! How can I deal with a boss who changes her mind/goes back on what she initially told me?

    For example, she told me (verbally) how to fill out the inventory spreadsheets (which she didn’t create and doesn’t fill out), and the way she did that was to tell me to look up the SKU in the spreadsheet history (we have it month by month) and then just copy/paste that. She said our prices are locked in with the company we use and nothing will change. So I’ve been doing that.

    But then earlier this week, she took a look at the sheets and saw that some of the categories were not correct. I explained (via a response to her email) that what I was taught, to copy/paste what was already there, which included the categories (a prior admin filled out most of the year, which is where I get the info from). This is the one thing she’s trained me in, that I didn’t learn from the prior clerk.

    But she then responds that copy/pasting isn’t the way to do it, because information can change, and to make sure it’s really accurate, we should start from scratch each time. She also said that I must have gotten confused with what I was doing, or misunderstood. I know I didn’t, but now I feel like I’m losing it.

    And then, my new co-admin started a month ago and my boss said that I wouldn’t be the primary trainer for her, she (my boss) would. Fine, great. But now as I do inventory (which is a pretty involved process), I’m supposed to show her what to do, explain the process and all that, which feels like training to me. (Previous admin had this same problem with me, actually. She was also told she wasn’t my trainer but I went to her with all my questions because I learned the job from her.)

    My boss and I have a pretty good relationship, but my previous co-admin was let go a few months ago because she and my boss didn’t get along. I don’t know the specifics, but I’m worried if I kick up a fuss of any kind, I’ll be let go eventually too. And this job has really good health insurance. And I’ve been here less than a year and definitely don’t want to leave – I genuinely like my job, it’s just a little rough lately.

    1. Everything Bagel*

      if there’s no written documentation and she’s just verbally telling you, why don’t you start documenting it and then share it with her in an email? You could include an email, “Thanks for showing me process x. I’ve written down the instructions so we have them documented. If you don’t mind, perhaps you could look over it to make sure I’ve captured everything correctly.” or something like that… She should appreciate that you are taking the initiative to prepare documentation and make sure you have an understanding of what you were taught.

      1. hypoglycemic rage*

        i was thinking about doing this actually, glad i had the right frame of mind! there’s documentation for literally everything else in this job, but there’s no documentation for this. might as well make some! :)

      2. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Yeah, when I had a client that did this, I’d email them something like “Hi [client]! I just want to make sure I have it right, and that I don’t forget. When we met on Wednesday to talk about the tea pouring method, we agreed that the cups should be:….” etc. Maybe don’t mention that it’s changed from what the boss previously told you, as that’s likely to make her defensive, but now you have proof of the last thing she told you, and going forward she can still ask you do to it differently as often as she likes, but it’ll be obvious that you’re not doing it wrong when she does.

        1. hypoglycemic rage*

          i like this idea! it’s just frustrating because i felt like i was losing my mind and doubted myself when she said that’s not actually how we’re supposed to do it. which she’s the one who told me how!!

      3. oops*

        Cosign. Even if it’s one-time instructions, bullet it out in an email, and send it to her to ask for confirmation.

        This is also a good litmus test: someone who is just scattered will appreciate this, or at least, not be bothered. If she reacts with hostility (assuming you keeping a positive tone), then you may want to start a stealth job search.

        1. hypoglycemic rage*

          yikes, ok, good to know! i’ve been at this job less than a year and def plan on staying for awhile. but i guess if i do this and she acts annoyed or tells me i don’t need to do it or anything other than, like, support, that’s a sign too.

  42. BradC*

    Resume question: my daughter has a couple of retail jobs on her resume, but has also done some freelance art work on the side over the last several years (art sketches, custom icons/emoji, character animation, etc.) She’s done a non-trivial amount of this side work, but the total dollars involved is still fairly small (like under $1k total).
    She originally didn’t have this on there at all, but I think its important to include. My question, though: should this be in the “job” section as its own item? Or under “other interests and skills” or somewhere else? Is there a threshold (of dollars or time involved) where this would be moved from “other” to “jobs”?

    1. Paint N Drip*

      I agree it should be on there!! Sounds like she’s fairly young, so I don’t think dollars really need to be involved in the consideration of this – you can use your volunteer experience to pad your resume, I don’t think it matters if it’s Feeding America or her friend’s Discord server. If she was applying to jobs that aren’t art-adjacent, she could include a job called ‘freelance digital art’ at Brad’s Daughter Arts (or whatever titles/names are appropriate) and include her skills under there – I think that speaks well to her self-directed learning and ability to follow through, particularly if she’s savvy with multiple types of art or software. If she’s applying for design/art type jobs, I’d include a separate heading for ‘applicable experience’ that’s similar but where she lists the projects individually. Good luck Brad’s daughter!

      1. BradC*

        Thanks!
        Yes, she’s a new college graduate (art degree), and we’re working on two versions of her resume: one portfolio-focused for art-related jobs and one for more general office work. We’re definitely going to include it, just not sure how (or if) to provide context/perspective (in the same way you’d distinguish a part-time or volunteer position from a full-time job).

  43. Spreadsheet Queen*

    I am about to confirm acceptance on an offer for a new job that I’m very excited about! (And scared, because that’s how I roll – yay, anxiety). I can wait until Monday to give notice at my current place, right?
    I’ve requested a start date 6 weeks out so I can work out 2 weeks and have a month off in between jobs. I tried to get in touch with a person who recently voluntarily left our department to find out if she was required to leave before she expected to after putting in her notice, but I haven’t heard back from her.
    I have a bunch of stuff I want to have in order before I go, including deleting some personal stuff from my drives and removing notes about my various passwords – that no one else should use to access systems (because the rules are they are user specific) – presumably my boss or someone will be given the link to access my onedrive in case anything comes up where they need my files during some specified period of time before IT just deletes them. This all makes sense, right? I’ve been here a long time and have tons of history that no one else has, so I want things in a little better order than they are today. I’ve NEVER been asked to leave early when I’ve resigned position, but I know it happens.

    1. Paint N Drip*

      Anxiety pals!! Monday is FINE, they won’t be able to do anything extraordinary (in terms of preparing or replacing you) with one extra afternoon anyway. If you need an afternoon to clean up your files JUST IN CASE then go for it dude. Congrats on the new job :)

      1. Area Woman*

        I was even just JOB SEARCHING and deleted lots of personal files. Once I got the offer I told them immediately because I wanted to be gone. Thankfully they let me work out the notice period but it was nice that nothing personal was behind in case they walked me out.

    2. Everything Bagel*

      Congratulations on the new job! The only thing I think you should consider is waiting to give notice until you’ve passed the new company’s background check, if they’re going to do one. If anything unexpected or incorrect shows up in your background check, the new company may decide to pull the offer leaving you hanging and potentially trying to get your old job back.

  44. Audrey Puffins*

    Getting to the point with one of our co-workers where I’m beginning to suspect that the reason she is The Way She Is is to unite literally everybody else in the office against her so that we remain harmonious among ourselves. It sounds like a wild conspiracy theory, but also, I can’t imagine any rational reason why someone would Be Like That.

    3. A Significant Tree*

      I think there was an episode of Suits where they identify an otherwise low performer’s primary redeeming skill as being the guy who improves everyone around him. Of course, that character is a good coworker and the skill is collaboration, not alienation…

  45. CubeFarmer*

    I’m about to become a manager. I’ve read through Alison’s other threads on this, and reflected what I like and do not like in my manager.

    One thing I’ve consistently disliked about my current manager is she tends to throw me under the bus when I’m wrong. Instead of pulling me aside to tell me that I made a mistake, she’ll always make the correction on a reply-all email, so everyone can see that she knows everything. It’s one thing that I will never do.

    Also, whenever I communicate to a group, she always feels the need to follow up with (sometimes painfully obvious) add-ons just so everyone sees that she’s gotten a contribution in. If I email, “Jane, I’ll microwave the soup at 12:30” there will be the inevitable add-on from boss “Cube will microwave the soup in a bowl for at least two minutes, until it’s hot, and then use a potholder to remove the bowl so she doesn’t burn her palms” Well, yes, that’s generally the point of microwaving, and I think I know how to remove a bowl from a microwave without injuring myself. I know that she’s just being thorough, but sometimes I think she forgets I have a thorough understanding of my role.

    This brings me to a question, how do I, as a manger, make sure all the bases are covered without infantilizing my employee? Is saying “Marla, can you walk me through your steps here?” a trap if she misses something? Or do I say, “Marla, I just want to make sure you’re considering your hands on this project.” I want to make it so she’s making her own decisions about how to get from A to B, and perhaps innovating in a way I hadn’t considered, but at the same time I know what’s accomplished.

    1. Bruce*

      That’s a great question, and I salute you for recognizing some things you will do differently than your current manager (will you still be reporting to them?).
      To respond in brief, it is not infantilizing them to ask them to explain their plans to you clearly. This is different from you giving them a step by step recipe, since they have ownership of their explanation. Walking through a plan and giving feedback is “attention to detail”, it can be tedious but it also can inspire respect because you are paying attention.
      There may be some times when you need to give a specific recipe, in those cases it is good to have them review it and show that they own it… maybe have them read it and then have them walk through it. Good luck, and I think you have your heart in the right place…

      1. CubeFarmer*

        My manager is retiring, so I am stepping into her role. My manager is rightfully beloved, and to be fair, most people roll their eyes at her micromanaging. That’s it–she’s a micromanager.

        Overall I really, really respect and like my manager. Actually, now that her retirement is imminent, there have been quite a few, “Wow, we’re really going to miss Cressida. She’s been a remarkable presence…” drifting into “I’m having a hard time imagining the program will continue without her.” to which my grandboss has supportively chimed in, “Cube is exceedingly capable and I know she will do a fantastic job. That’s why we chose her.”

        Combined with surviving her bouts of micromanaging, it’s really kicked off a wave of imposter syndrome. I realized that, while I might do some things differently than Cressida, that doesn’t mean that I’ll do a terrible job. I need to keep reminding myself that.

        1. Bruce*

          Oh, I’m glad that overall you were happy with her, and that she is retiring! That is a state I look forward too. Congrats on the promotion!

    2. Zephy*

      I think you should start from a place of trusting that your employees are competent adults who know how to do their jobs, and adjust that based on their work output. If Marla’s work is short of where it needs to be, then you can address that specifically. If you’re not moving into a position of managing people who do the job you used to do, then you can sit with your new employees and ask them to show you how they do what they do – not to pass judgment on whether it’s correct, but to understand their processes.

      I would assume you (and your employees) would know if there are regulatory/compliance reasons that something Must Be Done This Way Specifically, but if that’s not a consideration, then the path from deliverable A to deliverable B doesn’t actually matter all that much. Maybe Devon’s process is convoluted but thorough, and results in a flawless product. Maybe Marla’s process is more streamlined, but results in a less polished (but still usable) product. Maybe one of those things is more important to your work than the other, it really depends on what you’re doing.

  46. Qwerty*

    How do you keep your energy up to have an active life outside of work? There are networking/social events, online classes I want/need to take, so much that I want to learn and do. Usually I’m too zonked after work to do anything but zone out to Netflix but I used to juggle a ton of activities and study daily until a few years ago.

    Trying to keep this conversation positive – I’m experiencing a post-illness bout of rebound energy and I want to keep this train going because I feel like my old self again.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I find that doing life/home maintenance stuff first thing in the morning is a help. Then I’m not faced with that too when the work day is over. Empty the dishwasher, take care of mail/bills/etc, vacuum, whatever.

    2. ferrina*

      First, is there anything at work that will suck your energy? Did you take on a new job or new responsibilities that require a lot of energy?

      I’ve found that it helps to take one step at a time (yes, cliche, but real). I started with a really low commitment. Sign up for one thing. This could be a one-time thing, this could be one class, this could be one social event. Look for the 1-2 hour range. Do something that sounds easy. Try to make it something where you can rest the next day (whether that’s physically rest or recover from being peopled out).
      Do this either every other week for a few months. You can do two weeks back-to-back if you want, but don’t go for 3 weeks back-to-back until you are really ready.

      If you aren’t doing any kind of physical activity, doing that regularly can help increase your energy. Find a physical thing that you enjoy and meets where your current capabilities are at (do not torture yourself- torturing will just exhaust you physically and mentally and motivate you to quit). Do the thing once a week. When that feels good, move to twice a week. Eating well and sleeping the right amount also really, really help. (it’s not a cure-all, but it can be part of the solution). Again, don’t get obsessive. One gentle step at a time. Be proud of your accomplishments. There are days that I am just proud of myself for eating microwaved dinner instead of ice cream; somedays I cook a full healthy meal from scratch. Be proud of your wins for whereever you are, knowing that will fluctuate.

    3. Tradd*

      Decide what at home is most important. Use the dishwasher, if you have one. Don’t insist on doing dishes by hand. Do grocery delivery or pickup. Put bills on auto pay/direct debit. Lower your standards if they’re rather high. And decluttering really helps. The less to clean around means less work!

    4. DrSalty*

      For me, I schedule it ahead of time so then I have to do it. If I just leave it up to “when I feel like it” I’ll never do it.

    5. miel*

      I minimize other obligations. Some housework isn’t worth doing, or is worth hiring someone else to do. My house isn’t perfect, and that’s fine with me.

    6. PX*

      I make minimal effort for housework so that doesnt take up evenings. But also, you just have to do the things. Its easy to get in a rut and *think* you’re tired because you’ve been telling yourself that, and dreaming about how excited you are to do nothing after work. The amount of times I dread leaving the house after work but find that I’m full of energy once I’m out of the door is basically almost always – so you have to learn not to give in to the “oh let me just sit down for a bit” trick.

    7. Excel Gardener*

      Things that have helped me:

      – Being religious about getting at least 7 hours of sleep per night, and preferably 8.
      – Doing some form of exercise most days (I usually workout over lunch),
      – Cooking low effort recipes for weekday dinners that involve minimal cleanup.
      – Not checking work email/Slack once I log off for the day.
      – Only signing up for more time consuming or stressful commitments like professional development classes during slow seasons at work.
      – Making myself go and do the things after work even if I feel tired, I find that 80% of the time I get second wind if I push past that initial reluctance.

  47. AntelopeHare*

    Does anyone know if there is a publicly accessible database of US companies that have used the WOTC hiring credit? I fall under two WOTC categories and have been having a hard time finding a job. I’d like to increase my chances by targeting companies in my job search that utilize the WOTC.

    2. Annie*

      I just remembered this one:

      Some job sites have a special filter for “Second Chance Program” participants. That’s the closest I can think of to a national database of WOTC employers.

  48. Jennie*

    I staff a service desk with my coworker, Patricia, who is a much faster worker than I am. Speed has never been my strong suit — I’m a more fastidious worker who needs a bit more time to get things right. As a consequence, there are many days where Patricia ends up completing more tickets than I do. If someone files three tickets, I will often finish one and see that Patricia has already done the other two.

    Even under this arrangement, Patricia does not appear to be overworked. Whenever she doesn’t have anything to work on, she will often complain about how bored she is. I’ll sometimes see her just refreshing her computer waiting for tickets, and the instant one comes in, she immediately jumps on it. I don’t mind having downtime, I don’t particularly want to race her for tickets, and we also never get backed up or have trouble meeting any deadlines as a team, so the uneven work distribution has never struck me as a problem.

    But yesterday, I was pulled into a meeting with our manager, Brian. Brian said he’d noticed that I wasn’t completing nearly as many tickets as Patricia and said I needed to be shouldering more of the team’s work. Afterwards, I told Patricia what Brian had said and asked if she wouldn’t mind leaving more tickets for me to complete. She agreed, but was clearly unhappy about the request. The day proceeded with me working a bit faster than usual and completing exactly half the tickets. All deadlines were still met, but Patricia spent a lot more time pacing and grumbling than usual.

    I understand that it is good for work to be divided evenly in the interest of fairness. However, while the situation may technically be fairer now, I still am not sure who exactly the new arrangement is benefiting. We were getting all the work done in plenty of time in both cases, with the only difference now being that I am more rushed and Patricia is more bored. Do folks think I am missing something? Any advice for this situation?

    1. ferrina*

      As the person who is often Patricia in this situation, no, you aren’t missing anything. You and Patricia had an arrangement that worked for you. I like that Brian noticed the disparity, but what he should have done was check in with both of you to see how you felt about workload. Or give Patricia compensation to recognize her productivity level.

      At this point, I think you need to try out this new situation for a little bit. It’s going to feel weird for the first week or two, but really try it. Patricia might find that she enjoys the down time once she gets used to it. Or she may ask the boss for new work. She may ended up getting pulled on to different projects she can do in her downtime. Or things may go back to how they were. But first, you need to do what Brian asked an give this solution a proper try for a few weeks.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        As usual, ferrina and I are on the same page about stuff, even about both being a Patricia. (Hello, ADHD what?)

    2. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Can you and Patricia discuss the situation with Brian? First maybe talk to Patricia alone and ask her if she’d prefer the previous arrangement and if she felt doing more of the work was unfair to her. Assuming she was fine with the previous arrangement, go to Brian and tell him that and ask if there’s a way to go back to that. Or maybe he’ll have some other tasks that Patricia can do that would fill up her time.

      I’ve been Patricia in some of my previous jobs and it’s pretty frustrating to not have enough to do, so I get where she’s coming from. It probably would help if the two of you were aligned on what you wanted before you talk to Brian, and I don’t think it’s out of line for you two to talk to him about how the situation was fine before and is now less fine for both of you (you don’t want to feel rushed, right?).

    3. Angstrom*

      Treating everyone equally is not the same as treating everyone fairly. That’s a painfully common misconception. You’re both less happy with the new “fairer” workflow.

      You and Patricia need to decide what works best for both of you, and present it to Brian as being the best for the team.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Ah yes, the ever-present equality vs equity disconnect. Agreed, Brian should be striving for equity, not equality.

  49. Elle Woods*

    I know exit interviews are a standard practice in professional settings. Has anyone has ever been asked to do one for a volunteer position? I’ve decided to quit volunteering with a local outreach group and the executive director has asked if I’d be willing to meet with him to discuss why I’m quitting. (The outreach group is one of five groups that report to this executive director.)

    A couple of things that might be relevant: I’ve been volunteering with the group for nearly 20 years. There was a change in leadership of the outreach group about a year ago. Since that time, roughly 2/3 of the volunteers have quit.

    1. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Might be worth it if you think the ED would listen to you. Do you know if other volunteers have talked to him about the new outreach leader? I’m assuming that’s the reason you and a lot of others have quit. Do you think the ED has an inkling that the new leader isn’t so great? Is the ED a reasonable person who won’t hold your feedback against you?

      1. Elle Woods*

        Fortunately the ED is a great guy who definitely would not hold my feedback against me. From what I’ve been able to glean, he has some idea that this person’s leadership skills aren’t the greatest. I know at least one person has told him that the leader is unilaterally making decisions and burning through the group’s budget like wildfire.

    2. CubeFarmer*

      It’s a volunteer role, so what’s to be lost by being completely honest in your explanation of why you’re leaving?

      1. ferrina*

        Especially since you’ve been there so long- you are a high-value volunteer. When you lose a high-value volunteer, that raises red flags for the organization to figure out what is going on.
        Please share your thoughts!

    3. Cordelia*

      I did do one for a volunteer role. I was much more honest and open that I have ever been when doing one for work, because it didn’t matter – it wasn’t going to affect my references or burn any bridges in my profession. Also, I trusted that the organisation genuinely wanted to know how they could improve. They were good to volunteer for and I left for personal reasons rather than anything to do with them, but there were things I hadn’t liked about working with them and I was able to say these.
      It sounds like the ED here wants to know what is going wrong that is making everyone quit, and this is your chance to tell them. I’d go for it!

  50. alldogsarepuppies*

    CW: Death

    Has anyone else been following the EY India death? TL:DR version is a young woman in her first career job as an auditor for EY tragically passed away and her mom wrote a long letter to the President saying the stress and overwork of the job was the cause. The response from above seems to be that in this culture long work is needed, she wasn’t treated differently than other employees, and work didn’t cause her death.

    Given the status of EY internationally and the the attention this is given, what do we think may come of this? Do we think it might ripely to other industries? Is it even fair to blame a business when an adult presumably willingly engaged in employment culture?

    2. Eleanor*

      Of course you can blame the business. Everyone “willingly” engages in employment culture in one way or another, but the fact of the matter is that you need to work to survive. Faced with losing a job, most people will put up with pretty terrible conditions; that doesn’t mean those conditions are justified. If people are dying due to overwork, or even if overwork was just one factor in their death, that is a very very serious problem and that business should face serious consequences.

  51. Bruce*

    I’d not raised it here, but my child recently had to move jobs after being driven out by a toxic manager, they have been at the new place for more than 2 weeks and are finding it a whole new world so far. I’ve been telling them to read AAM for a while, not sure if they have but I’ve found the perspectives here helpful when talking to them about the shenanigans they were facing. Whew and fingers crossed!

  52. Merry*

    Deciding how I want to proceed and would love to pick some brains, because I keep crying at the idea of leaving and feel a bit of dread at the idea of staying

    I’ve been in my current job 10 years, I love the sense of fulfillment I get from working here, I love my coworkers, I love the primary focus of my job (think building security/desk job) but I don’t love that when I’m not in an active security situation, I’m being given jobs that are not in my wheelhouse and are increasingly more HR focused because I am technically a member of HR. I believe if I stay here I will be doing more and more HR duties. I also believe the new head of our organization is more conservative in his approach to work than I am, and he has not endeared himself with the staff he certainly does not appreciate me specifically, I have not seen any sign he has warmed to me in the last 2 years, and I have noticed negativity spreading in our whole org since he started and there seems to be very little chance he would be leaving. It could get worse before it gets better, and my direct boss seems unable to protect me and is also the one assigning me work i don’t love. I have outlined all the negatives but the positives are a big enough to keep me here under any other circumstance. But I am very uncertain at this point.

    I was poking around and applied for a job I would love that I have previously thought I couldn’t possibly have. This is a job you usually need a degree I don’t have, to get an interview. Shockingly I passed a screening interview and had a full interview yesterday. Luckily I have experience very closely aligned with this and I think I represented myself well, I also felt comfortable with the group and I am relatively sure I would like working with them. This job involves working a schedule that contrasts with my husbands, meaning I would see him far less, means parking in a less secure place where I might be walking blocks to get to work ,and pays about $50 less weekly, it has an equal benefits package to the current one. As uncertain as I feel about leaving my current job, because I love it and my coworkers am I crazy to accept if I get a job offer?

    1. ferrina*

      Do you want to accept? Have you talked through with your husband what it would mean for your schedule and your budget? Then accept.

      You have reasons for leaving the job. They are very valid reasons. Yes, leaving a job is a risk, but staying at a job is also a risk. You say “It could get worse before it gets better, and my direct boss seems unable to protect me“. That is a very, very good reason for leaving a job. And it sounds like you are being picky in the job that you are moving too- yes, it’s not a magical unicorn of the job, but it’s one that you are genuinely excited about (I think, hard to tell in writing what your tone is). And I’m not hearing any red flags, except the potential impact to your schedule and budget (no clue if those are actually red flags or just life changes- you and your husband will know if those are things that will change and be fine, or things that could be disastrous)

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        I agree with ferrina – do you want to accept and have you discussed with your husband how the different schedule and financial situation would work? I would think being on a different schedule from your husband might be difficult and for some people very difficult. Is it a situation where at some point your schedule would shift to be the same as your husband? (As in, this is the schedule for new employees but after a certain time period that can be renegotiated.) I don’t think it’s great to accept a job hoping it will change from what it currently is, but if you *know* the schedule would change at a later date that might be ok for you.

        As for the pay cut, you could certainly try to negotiate for a higher salary, even one that’s higher than you make now. However….during my last job search I decided I was tired of selling myself short. I knew I was being massively underpaid and had been for most of my career, so I decided I would only look at jobs that paid $20k more than what I was making at the time. Of course I worried that I might not find a job I was qualified for at that rate, but as it turned out, there were plenty of them out there. It also turns out that being paid less affects how people see you at work. At my last job, because I wasn’t paid like a SME but more like an admin, I was treated like an admin even though I truly was a SME. As I liked to tell people, “I didn’t get no respect.” You have 10 years of experience at your job (or more, if this isn’t your first job in your field) and you deserve to make more at your next job, not less. Of course it can be hard to turn down a job you think you’ll like, but it’s entirely possible a very similar job will come up with a schedule and a salary that works better for you.

        As for your actual question, another thing that could help you decide is how you feel about the specific job being offered. Of *course* it’s hard to leave people you love working with (I still miss my old supervisor six months later, who was the best), but maybe your gut will tell you that the new job will be so much better than the old job so you should accept. Or maybe your gut will say, “Oof, this new job sounds pretty good but not good enough to stop working with Jane” and that’ll prompt you to keep looking.

        Good luck!!

        1. Jeneral*

          It’s a good point that another even better job might come along, without the downside of the schedule.

    2. Excel Gardener*

      Definitely talk to your husband about the opposing schedules. Anecdotally that can be very hard on a marriage. If I was in a long-term relationship, I’d be very reluctant to be on an opposite work schedule from my partner. But only you and your husband know your situation, so talk to him about it.

    3. Merry*

      Thank you all, I think you’ve given me some really helpful perspective on this. I keep flipping back and forth between feeling foolish for wanting to leave a job I love and excel at, and crazy for not plowing down the door and taking a job I have always been excited and passionate about. I am still conflicted, but if I do get the offer, I am planning to ask for a day to think about it and ultimately reaching out to my current manager to seek her advice. This may seem a bit counter to common advice but I do feel she is one of the most balanced thinkers I know and I see her as a mentor to me, I believe it would help clarify my decision for me if I ask her what my future looks like at current job if I turn down this new opportunity

    4. WestsideStory*

      This does not sound like a good offer to me, then again, my dealbreaker would be “less secure parking and having to walk blocks to work looking over my shoulder twice a day.”

      Lower pay is something you could negotiate, but having a new schedule with your husband might be the harder adjustment.

      You have been very successful in your job search – just keep trying, and you will find something that suits your situation. You don’t have to take the first job that’s been offered to you.

    5. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      The new job sounds stressful for your marriage and personally I’d not move for lower pay unless it was an emergency exit. Add less secure parking – and hell no.

      Instead, could you really concentrate on a new job hunt until you find one with decent hours and at least a bit more takehome pay.

    6. Cj*

      I’m posting this on sunday, so I don’t know if you are coming back to check replies. and I’m not sure how different you and your husband schedules will be. but my sister has told me that the only time in their 40-year marriage that her and her husband ever came close to getting divorced was when she work days and he worked nights.

  53. Heffalump*

    ~10 years ago I had an amusing but slightly puzzling experience. I started a new job, and naturally I had some contact with the IT guy early on. I also had a female peer in the adjacent cube.

    One day on lunch hour I nuked my lunch in the break room and came back to my cube to eat. The IT guy and my peer were seated and talking in her cube. One of them said, “We’re married.”

    I had to laugh. I said, “You don’t have to answer to me about whom you talk to!”

    1. The Unionizer Bunny*

      They might have been concerned you had overheard a comment indicating they were sexually involved, and wanted to head off at the pass any rumors about them having an affair.

      Transparency: pass 1, comment 4/4

  54. beth*

    Hey all – so I have a weird one. My direct manager has been showing offline in Teams since the end of July. At the time she was heads down on a project with tight deliverables. She let her direct reports know that it was fine to IM her or text her if urgent. The thing is she is still showing offline and now her counterpart, who I also have a working relationship with, is doing the same. My skip level manager is always online, but he micromanages and creates more problems than he helps solve so I try to limit interacting with him. I also reported him to HR because of the micromanaging and other behaviors but that’s another story.

    My problem is that I have no idea if she’s online, presenting or away and her responding to a Teams message is sporadic. Is there a way to bring this up to her that doesn’t sound like I’m policing her? I truly just want to know if she’s around, if I should try someone else or send her a text.

    1. ferrina*

      Teams will sometimes do this. At one point mine decided to set itself to chronically Away, and it was very annoying. I would assume that it’s a glitch. If you have a good relationship, you could say “Hey, Teams says you are offline. Are you actually offline?”

      Otherwise, send your message and give her a reasonable time to respond (what reasonable is will depend on how urgent your message is and what your company’s culture is). If she doesn’t respond, then do your next option of contacting someone else or texting. This is fine to do and perfectly normal.

      1. CTT*

        Seconding this! On the flip-side of your issue, I just tried calling my boss because her Teams showed she was available, but apparently she’s at her child’s school for a parent-teacher conference. I think it glitches way more than we realize.

      2. Alex*

        Yeah, mine does this too. Sometimes it will randomly go back, and others it takes a whole computer restart to look active, and I’m far too lazy for that!

      3. Aggretsuko*

        Teams just sets itself however, regardless of what I’m doing. I don’t get why it says I’m offline when I’m not either!

    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      Ask them to set it to DND, the red status with the bar. Not away.

      This is one reason why I am so happy to be working for myself. I got so sick of everyone pretending to have “teams issues” when it was clear they just were not working or taking an extended lunch or whatever. And if an app is truly so flawed, people need to proactively fix it. Have IT delete and readd it, for example.

      I remember when we all did an onsite and I realized everyone who had been complaining about Teams? Suddenly they worked perfectly (green when they were there, yellow when away).

      And yes I checked, because at that point I had gotten so sick of chasing people down for them to do anything.

      It always reminds me to the now-cliche but non-sensical. “Sorry I was on mute, can you repeat that?” No, you just were not paying attention

      1. TheBunny*

        I think it depends on your company’s set up.

        We use a VM Ware virtual desktop and it causes wonky things with Teams. Audio on calls doesn’t work and it sets us to whatever status it wants.

        I was once typing a message ON TEAMS and all of a sudden it said I was offline. At that point I gave up trying to argue with it…I’ve just decided to be whatever status it thinks I am. :)

    3. Goddess47*

      I’d ask! “Is it okay if I IM/text you when I really need you? If you’re on a project, I do understand but I want to make sure it’s okay to reach out when I have something you can help with/need to know.”

      Good luck!

  55. Q for UK law firms*

    for small-medoum size firms what CMS/DMS/Practice Management software are you using? we’re looking to switch and I’d love recommendations.

  56. Fluff*

    Travel Reimbursement for a 4 day hotel stay for a work conference.

    I bought my hotel room through priceline or hotels.com for a 4 day stay during a work conference. The regular conference room blocks at all hotels were full and these 3rd party sites were the only way to be on the conference bus route. I booked 2 months in advance and had to pay in full at booking for my 4 days at a regular hotel.

    My work is refusing to pay me back because the receipt is not itemized. The receipt shows the room rate per night $299, taxes and fees per night $38 and then multiplied x 4. When I checked out, I did ask for another receipt out of habit. They declined. I would have to get the receipt through the 3rd party. Which, I cannot. I called, emailed and chatted – and no can do. The hotel manager actually said it would violate the hotel’s contract with the third party.

    The reimbursement department is insisting on an itemized per day bill which I cannot get. No idea what my job is worried about because you cannot order room service from Priceline or those type of sites. Any of the extras would have been on the hotel bill. Plus, the fees and taxes match what the state and local websites show for hotel fees. I am pushing them to be repaid and I believe they will as I have never heard of this policy and have not had issues in the past with similar reimbursement.

    Question for the group: Have any of you been run into this problem – being unable to get a day by day receipt from hotels for rooms booked through 3rd party? What did you do?

    For folks in finance – why is having a day be day receipt required when the per day charge and per day taxes / fees x 4 nights is obvious on the receipt paid in advance?

    How can I advocate to improve this policy? The office thinks it is easy to get these itemized receipts. The hotel manager was really nice and mentioned the third party resellers are getting very strict about the hotels giving receipts. They must refer the customer back to the vendor. I want to help and make sure others do not stuck with a bill like this. I work in a hospital and sometimes a university.

    I am soo annoyed because I am trying to be a good steward for my job’s $. I feel like I should not bother and just go with the easy button and not make any effort to be economical.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      What I’ve learned from Reddit (yeah, I know) is that you are technically the customer of the third party reseller, not the hotel, which is why the hotel cannot/will not provide a receipt.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      My reply didn’t post so apologies if this shows up twice, but when you go through a third party, your agreement is with them, not the hotel. You are not technically a customer of the hotel and that’s why they can’t/won’t give you a receipt.

    3. miel*

      So I think, next time, it would be smart to book directly with the hotel (even if it costs a little more).

      This sounds like a massive headache though. I hope you and your finance people can get it figured out because you really do need to be reimbursed for this.

      1. Zephy*

        It sounds like Fluff’s problem is that there were no rooms available to book directly with the hotel – all of the available bookings were rooms reserved by the third-party service. It wasn’t a cost issue.

    4. CubeFarmer*

      Did your company give you their reimbursement policy before you traveled? Sounds like they didn’t. Is the problem that the receipt is from Priceline and not from, say, Hilton?

      I wonder if you could dummy up an itemized receipt with daily charges.

      1. Everything Bagel*

        I would not create a false bill to submit for an expense report, I think you could get in a lot of trouble for this. Instead, I’d get my manager involved and provide any pre-approval documentation/emails where you were told to make the purchase through the third party site rather than directly with the hotel.

        1. Tio*

          Yes, this, please don’t do this. This could be a fireable offense in many cases.

          I would pull all the communications (hopefully email) from the site, show the finance department, and explain to them, “I paid for this. I need the money back. They are refusing to provide what you need. What are our next steps to get me reimbursed with what we are able to obtain?”

          If that doesn’t work, you need to go over their heads.

    5. Anon4this12*

      Next time book through the hotel’s website, Hilton, Marriott, whatever. Do not book through the 3rd party sites.

      We have an online travel thing we must book through and if we can’t we must book on the company website and each city has a max per day rate we can pay. If you go above you need permission/explain. I attended a conference once and the max per night allowed was $350, but the entire city was full of events that week so the cheapest hotel available was $500 a night. I had to prove this and do extra work to get the ok.

      Contact the third party where you bought the hotel and ask for itemized. This is why it is so important to check your company’s policies before traveling or booking things! A friend booked a business class ticket without realizing her company only covered it for flights 10+ hours and her flight was 7 hours. Her previous company allowed business after 6 hours. So her company made her pay back the business class flight difference, which was not cheap!

    6. Glazed Donut*

      I have run into this problem! When I worked at a state gov’t agency, we had an award-winner book travel (legit travel we supported) using a similar website to save money. It took 6-8 months to get her reimbursed. I, too, tried everything to get an itemized daily receipt.
      What ended up working through our finance dept was me getting in writing from the source that they do not itemize by day. I was able to submit that + her bill + I think something from the website (?) and it finally passed that way. I also had a higher-up write that she supported the reimbursement. It took a long time, and lots of dead ends, and definitely a warning to future award winners to NOT use those sites because they may not be reimbursed. Lesson learned! imo companies should be clearer about this on the front end!

    7. A Book about Metals*

      Beyond the question of Priceline vs the hotel directly, there should be no issue with just submitting the receipt for the total as you have done. I’ve traveled for work for years and have never submitted separate hotel receipts for each day I stayed

    8. Bitte Meddler*

      Does your company not have a “lost receipt” policy? Everywhere I have ever worked, it was understood that humans makes mistakes and sometimes lose track of, say, a 3″x 2″ cash register receipt from a donut shop.

      You fill out the “lost receipt” form, your manager signs off on it. Depending on the size of the expense, your grandboss might have to approve it, too.

      But somebody, somewhere has the authority to approve a purchase of the 4-night-hotel size.

      Go around the Reimbursement department and talk to your manager.

      It would help if you made an Excel document where you paste a screenshot of the original purchase receipt then, next to it, paste a screenshot of the credit card line item, circle both amounts, and then draw and arrow from the receipt to the cc line item. Get your manager’s approval for the amount in writing, and paste that below both screenshots.

      It sounds dumb, but if that reimbursement gets selected for testing in an audit, having Speaking-to-a-3rd-Grader level of documentation will allow the auditor to pass that transaction without flagging it for further review.

    9. AnotherLibrarian*

      Yes, I have run into this and was told to never book through a third-party site, because an itemized receipt was required. One time, I had issues with international travel, so my best advice is to go to the most competent person in your Travel Office or your Reimbursement Office (if you’re not sure who to go to, ask around) and see if they can help you out. Mine required the non-itemized receipt, my credit card statement and could only reimburse the “estimate cost” which was lower than the bill, but was at least something. Good luck!

    10. Priceline*

      Yes, this is normal for a site like Priceline. They buy a block of rooms from the hotel then resell them to you. The hotel is not privy to the specifics of your financial arrangement with Priceline so they couldn’t print you a bill even if they wanted to print one – their bill for the room is what Priceline paid them before the markup. I once had a hotel accidentally slip just such a bill under my door the last night and I got the dubious pleasure of seeing just how much of a markup I’d paid.

      Good luck, but I suspect you’re going to be out the money.

  57. NerdyLibraryClerk*

    I might be at BEC with my workplace’s leadership, but is DISC as “medieval humors for the brain” as it sounds? We’re apparently spending half of our yearly staff meeting on learning our DISC types and then doing “activities” related to this.

    1. CTT*

      It is, but I found it less annoying than Strengths Finder or MBTI. Although I only did it at one staff meeting and we forgot about it shortly thereafter, so I wish you similar luck!

    3. Yes And*

      Another commenter on AAM once referred to these kinds of things as “astrology for businessmen,” and I haven’t been able to think of them in any other terms since.

      1. Eleanor*

        OH my goodness that’s exactly what they are–and it is so annoying to be expected to be a team player and take them seriously. Lol

        1. A reader among many*

          It is a perfect description! And then the results are used in some baffling ways.

          My last-job-but-one followed a group internship; we rotated through different departments with the understanding that any or none might extend an offer. At the end of the process, we all took a “personality test,” and the recruiter later called us all in together: “I’m sorry to say that, based on the results of this test, we probably wouldn’t want to hire any of you. Maybe we should have done some practice exams beforehand…?”

          For a personality test! We were all floored–two of us promptly received and accepted offers, anyway, and a third hired in later–but it was absurd.

    4. PrincessFlyingHedgehog*

      Eh, it depends, it can lead to some productive discussions. But if your leadership is terrible and/or toxic, then it’s going to be a completely useless activity.

      1. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

        This. I do find it helpful for helping others understand the mind-bending concept that “people are different/ don’t throw a basketball at someone who’s holding a cricket bat, generally speaking,” though. (For instance, Manager Tools, the podcast that really brought that into the general parlance, once pointed out that the “say someone’s name as often as you can so they’ll like you,” is great if you are someone who is motivated by feeling important and special, but grating if you don’t like feeling manipulated or find it distracting.)

      2. NerdyLibraryClerk*

        Sadly, leadership is a dumpster fire made of smaller dumpster fires. I suspect they think this will be a magic wand to fix employee dissatisfaction or at least distract us with something shiny.

        We are not distracted. Overworked, underpaid, and grumpy, yes. Also unionizing. But not distracted.

        (The powers that be have most recently decided that we won’t be doing Banned Books Week. This is going over as well as you might expect. Anyone have a spare library board that doesn’t hate public libraries?)

    5. Charlotte Lucas*

      The main advantage to DiSC is that it’s based on the work of William Moulton Marston. Amuse yourself be reading about his life and watching Wonder Woman.

    6. Donna A Eis*

      It helped me to mentally acknowledge these are not accurate diagnostic tools to label other people or unlock magic techniques for resolving and avoiding communication or work style differences, but instead reduce the “training” to stories about the ways that we’re just all different. And some people need to hear stories to realize it.

      Good luck!

    7. Sneezy*

      Yes. It’s junk and a waste of time and money.

      I got an even score across all metrics at my last job and my boss gave me the silent treatment for months until I quit. She thought I’d cheated somehow to get that result. She also was angry when she overhead me and a coworker joking about its bizarre questions (“What’s worse? Poisoning an entire town’s water supply or running over a man?”)

  58. ampersand*

    I’m hoping to start a master’s program next year and need advice from anyone with ADHD who has successfully gotten through school.

    I did my undergrad over 20 years ago and it took me six years to graduate–I struggled. I went into a grad program a couple of years later quit after a year–it was a program I was interested in and I was doing well academically, but my brain did the thing were it was like, welp, I’m done with this! I couldn’t get my focus back.

    I was finally diagnosed with ADHD a few years ago and take medication for it that does help. Importantly, now I know there’s an actual reason I lose interest in things–in some ways that helps because it’s not a failing on my part, and in other ways it’s harder because I’m fighting against how my brain operates. But at least I’m aware!

    Now I want to go back to school in a completely different graduate program/field than the first time around. I’ve thought about this for a few years and I’m sure it’s something I want to do, but I’m really afraid that after I start I’ll just…lose interest. I’m committed to finishing graduate school this time–my question is, has anyone here with ADHD faced something similar? If it was a struggle to get through school, how did you do it?

    1. ferrina*

      My mom joked that I lost interest in school in Kindergarten. I wasn’t diagnosed with ADHD until after I already had a couple college degrees.

      Medications that include a dopamine reuptake inhibitor can help. The dopamine is what makes you feel accomplished when you do a thing. ADHD often comes with a shortage of dopamine, which is why we lost interest in a thing and why motivation is so hard to get back. For other people, just getting a thing done will give them a dopamine reward; for us, it’s just an emptiness. I was an adult when I first felt pleased when I finished laundry- it was a shock. I realized that this is what neurotypical people feel on a regular basis! Suddenly I didn’t feel so bad for struggling with motivation- it was like finding out that I was bad a racing because I had one leg when everyone else had two.

      There’s also a lot more resources on ADHD out there now than there was 20 years ago. A ton of research on ADHD was done in the 2000s, and so much more is known and available than there used to be. Tap into ADHD-friendly research and tools; I recommend the YouTube channel How To ADHD as a great starting point. It has curated a lot of content, including explanations, tips, and personal stories. (I think she has a book out, too).
      Good luck!

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Haha, hello again fellow ADHD friend! I read Jessica’s How to ADHD book and very much enjoyed it, but of course I know that not everyone likes to read.

        1. ferrina*

          lol! We are absolutely on the same wavelength today!! And most days- you’re one of the regular commenters whose name I recognize and starting nodding along with :)

          Have you read Dirty Laundry? The authors (Rich and Roxanne) have another YouTube that I follow called ADHD love. Rox has ADHD, and she is so relatable!

    2. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Ooooh, I was diagnosed with ADHD (inattentive) last year! I was always a good student because I love learning things and random facts, but I did absolutely terribly at subjects in which I had no interest whatsoever (Sociology 101, I’m looking at you) or with assignments that didn’t interest me (why do you want me to write a paper on this topic? I’d much rather just listen to the prof talk about it). The beauty of college and grad school is that I had no course requirements whatsoever so I could take the classes I wanted to, but even then I would find myself in some classes that were different than what I expected and I’d be really bored and, again, not do very well. I was always completely amazed at the friends I had who could study subjects they didn’t care about – how does anyone do that???

      As for advice, well…do you know about Jessica McCabe and How To ADHD? She’s got a ton of great YouTube videos about how to deal with an ADHD brain and I can’t get enough of them. (Apologies if you already know about them, but they’re so great I can’t not recommend them.) There are two videos on “the wall of awful” that I found so useful I took notes and put them in a location where I come across them every now and then. I’ll post links in another comment.

      Some other thoughts, most of which I stole from How To ADHD: I know I have a very hard time task switching and that the dread of doing something often preempts my ability to actually do it. The pomodoro technique, where you set a timer for a short amount of time where you will at least start the task, can be really helpful in overcoming the dread, and will often get you going to a point where you are now better able to focus on it and can work longer. And if not, well, at least you’ve started it, right? (I write this knowing I’m still not great at this, because I am really good at finding ways to just not start a thing, but I’m getting better.)

      Body doubling: if you have a hard time doing your required reading or class assignments, find a friend or family member who will body double with you. Body doubling is sitting with another person while both of you do some kind of quiet task. I found in college that I could focus better when I had the tiniest of audience, one who wasn’t paying any attention to me whatsoever but who certainly would notice if I started wandering around or talking or texting friends or whatever.

      I think because you are committed to this program and to graduating, and presumably also because you want to learn more about this subject you’re going to school for, you will be less likely to lose interest in it during your two-year (I’m assuming) master’s program. Yes, you lost interest before, but it’s possible that you were just burned out on school in general even though you took a couple of years off, or if it was a subject that related to what you studied in college you were burned out on that topic. With 20+ years away from school and now 2 years committed to your master’s program, you might find yourself in a completely different mindset. (And let’s not forget about the meds, because oh boy, are they helpful, aren’t they?)

      Good luck! I hope you find a great program that you’re excited about and will excel in!

      2. ferrina*

        Adding to the body doubling- there’s several apps out there that can replicate parts of body doubling as well.

      3. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

        When I did my capstone project my senior year (required by my college to graduate) my project partner body doubled me without even telling me he was doing it. We both worked on the experimental part of the project, but he was relying on me to do the entire (40? page) writeup since English was his second language. So he sat in the library next to me and pretended to work on the project (actually working on his other class’s homework or something) while I wrote for hours at a time.

    3. CubeFarmer*

      How do you currently deal with finishing things you’ve lost interest in doing? Certainly your current job must have that.

  59. Everything Bagel*

    Congratulations on the new job! The only thing I think you should consider is waiting to give notice until you’ve passed the new company’s background check, if they’re going to do one. If anything unexpected or incorrect shows up in your background check, the new company may decide to pull the offer leaving you hanging and potentially trying to get your old job back.

  60. Busy Middle Manager*

    How do people deal with criticism of their job choice, when talking with people close enough (close family, neighbors, friends) who are too close for the standard/blanket “I prefer not to discuss that” type things that tend only to work with strangers?

    Anyone else deal with this, and what is your job? How long did it take people to stop?

    I’ve transitioned into full time day trading. I’ve become a hermit very quickly, because I can’t stand the constant barrage of negativity and comments it brings. There have been two colors of reactions, none of which are “cool, how’s it going?.” At best, people give me speeches about how they don’t understand this, they don’t understand that, but also don’t seem interested in knowing. Cool. I don’t care! I didn’t expect you to know other peoples’ jobs in detail. More popular, I get speeches about how day traders fail. Cool. Thanks for the confidence? Do you know who fails and why they failed? No? Then what information are you actually giving me?
    Why not ask what I actually do first?

    It’s just been an emotional roller coaster. Being told I will fail sucks but is just dumb in the context of me secretly doing it PT, developing my own strategy, and making money.

    I’ve also noticed that most people are running on the assumption that their 9-5 is super safe and the obvious better choice, even if they’ve been through layoffs before.

    1. Strive to Excel*

      I recommend reframing this in your mind. While the specific topic these people are criticizing is your job choice, this is the same behavior as people who criticize clothes/diet/college degree/lifestyle choice/etc, and should be treated as such. The fact that it’s about your job is a red herring; they’re just being rude.

      I’d recommend either Allison’s “Wow” or “Why would you tell me that I’m going to fail?” or “I would appreciate you not criticizing me without knowing anything, thanks”. Alternatively check out Captain Awkward for scripts on handling people being rude about life choices. I think generally her advice is when asked about a sensitive topic to be bland and boring and then implacably redirect. IE, “Oh, I daytrade, but it’s really a lot of spreadsheets. How ’bout them Cowboys?”

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      Those people sound obnoxious.

      I don’t really have any advice but just wanted to say their behaviour is ridiculous and says more about them than your job.

    4. Reebee*

      Well, day trading can be looked down upon for a variety of reasons (high risk, get-rich-quick scheme, is high-stakes gambling, short-term investment strategy), but I agree that when people ask you about it they should be genuinely curious. Otherwise, it sounds like the ol’ passive-aggressive comment disguised as a question.

    5. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

      My ex-husband’s brother-in-law has been day trading for nearly two decades. I think they’re still doing well. And one of my coworkers left his corporate job 25-ish years ago to be full-time day trading. Both of them were self-assured enough to walk away from doubters and nay-sayers. That may be the key – just say “I’m doing well, and I plan to take vacation in (exotic location) later this year.” or “I enjoy my job, and don’t have to report to my old boss anymore.” or “I can live in (city of my choice), as the job doesn’t require me to report to work daily.”

  61. Strawberry Fields*

    I talk with “John” and “Mike” at work. John will often make comments like “We should all go to lunch” but instead, just him and Mike go out. That’s fine, but I’m just confused as to why John says anything in the first place about it. We all talk and (I thought) got along well. I’ve gone once with them, but that was it. Now it’s just the two of them. If John says anything, should I just ignore it or just nod and know that it’s not going to happen? Any thoughts?

    1. Alex*

      Do you want to go to lunch with them? If so, next time John makes the comment, say, great, how about Oatmeal Palooza today at noon?

      It’s probably that John feels closer and more comfortable with Mike and it just turns out that way. If you extend the invite, you might become more “in” in the group and start getting included.

    2. Aggretsuko*

      Apparently “all” means “just Mike.” I’d ignore it, nod and know that it’s not going to happen.

      Do you really want to go with them, or just feel weird about the situation?

  62. Should I Change Fields?*

    I think Im going to be offered a job soon. I’ve been thinking about changing fields for several years because my field is fairly low paying with a high workload. At my last job, I was part of leadership and loved it. When we moved, I had to take a position with less responsibility.

    I think I may be offered a position soon in an adjacent field with paid parental leave (instead of the 6 weeks unpaid I have now, my spouse works at the same org) organization, and a 10-20% raise. If it’s the higher end I’m going to take it for sure, but I find myself conflicted if it’s only a moderate raise. I still enjoy many aspects of my work and would be burning a bit of a bridge after investing many years of effort. At the same time, opportunities to leave don’t come around everyday and we want to start a family soon. In order for me to get back into leadership in my current field, we’d probably need to move, which isn’t an option.

    Any advice? Has anyone left a field you love for money or less stress? Or has anyone considered it but decided to stay? How did you end up feeling about your decision in hindsight?

    1. H.C.*

      Ultimately I think this is best for you to figure out & discuss with your spouse. We can offer our perspectives but our priorities, situations & contexts will likely be significantly different than yours.

      That being said, my former mentor (RIP) have imbued upon me the invaluable advice of “go where the opportunities are,” which I really took to heart when considering my career options, and whether to stay with current job or leave for a new one (and I have done both multiple times.)

      Also, unless your departure is involves something egregious, try to avoid the “bridge burning” self-talk.

  63. I'll have the blue plate special, please.*

    I’m having a moment of self-doubt. I’ve been in my field for 30 years (media) and I’m thankfully getting work (I freelance). I also try to be supportive of my colleagues, especially up-and-comers entering the industry from outside fields. I’m struggling right now as some of them are landing gigs and assignments that I used to get (I had some stumbles due to a former friend who tried to smear me).

    I’m also hurt to have been turned down for a regular writing position with a major news outlet (I started out in newspapers and have a deal deal of reporting experience) where another person who has only been in our field for two years landed it. I don’t know if it’s just me as I try to stay current on trends and further develop my skillset.

    1. WellRed*

      I suspect they are also getting paid less as well as having or being perceived as having more uh, new media or digital skills etc. I sympathize. Last time I looked at a job description it was at my university, they wanted someone todo “something” with video and were looking to pay in low 30s.

    2. PayLevel*

      Often when a less experienced person is chosen for roles they want to pay less money for the work. My dad got laid off at 49 and spent the next 17-18 years mostly looking for work because between his education and experience he cost 2x more than folks with less education and experience in mandatory payscales (he tried to indicate he would work for less but structurally the systems wouldn’t permit it).

      Good luck!

  64. Desperately Needs a Vacation*

    I have had 4 Managers in the past 4 years. Not that the work is that hard or my team of 6 high functioning Managers or Directors require that much oversight. First one moved out of the country, 2nd one was too arrogant and got himself fired. 3rd one was super nice, but wanted to go back to being an individual contributor. Current one is a ball busting control freak who is making us all nuts. 2 main issues that I could use some advice about: 1. She is using me as her secretary and assigning me one busy work project after another. I have a full workload and not the newest or lowest in the chain. I am beginning to feel either targeted or that this is sexist treatment. 2. I can’t get her to approve my PTO requests. I have to remind her several times. Again, I think I am just not important to her. How would you handle? Yes, I am actively looking for something else.

    1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

      You might try inviting the manager who returned to IC role to go to off-site for coffee/lunch for a work-related chat. Your current boss may be receiving additional stress from grandboss that is relevant to you.

  65. The Ginger Ginger*

    Anyone have course and/or training resource recommendations for Web Accessibility from a Product Owner perspective? I’ve done a lot of self-teaching and study, but I’ve become the defacto “expert” in this at my company, and I really, really want something a little more formal so I feel a little more comfortable when people ask me questions on this topic.

    I do have some training budget, so it doesn’t have to be free, but anything wildly expensive or involving travel is probably off the table.

    1. Desperately Needs a Vacation*

      Last year I took the Pragmatic Institute Product Management and got their certification. Fortunately it was paid for by my organization. It was all online.

        1. Desperately Needs a Vacation*

          It is more Product Management in general. They do add new courses all the time so there may be something that might fit your need.

    2. Qwerty*

      It’s not a course, but I just received a recommendation for the chrome plugins “Axe Dev Tools” or “Andi” for finding accessibility issues in your website. It only targets low hanging fruit, but its better than nothing

  66. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

    I am a reformed job-hopper and have been working in higher ed administration for the last 6 years. My resume is really strong if we’re only going 10 years back, but beyond that, its pretty dodgy. The problem is when I was a job hopper, I was also a manager, and that’s often my only relevant managerial experience. Should I just leave it off as it might make me look unreliable, or should I include it when I am applying for managerial roles to show that I have some experience? Just to be clear, the management experience was over 10 years ago.

    1. Qwerty*

      I think leave it on. You’ll get asked about it, but your current track record is staying in one place for 6yrs.

      Since the management experience was over 10yrs ago, hiring managers might be looking for someone with more recent experience, but that’s a separate item. Having old relevant experience is better than no mgmt experience.

    2. Sloanicota*

      I’ll be interested to see what others say, but the advice I see here is that you can pick and choose what to put on a resume and you don’t have to list everything and everything. So can you pick just the most recent (or perhaps longest-term, depending on how you feel about gaps) manager job and then the six year job? You don’t have to list all those other one or two year jobs, and especially if they were so long ago I really don’t think they’re all that relevant.

    3. M2*

      I would do both and see where you get bites. If you put the manger roles maybe only 2 previous. How long were you at each? If it was under a year it might be asked but if you have one that was 2 years it should be fine.

      Then for some applications I would leave it off and see what happens when you apply. I say this because I would ask questions but would wonder if management was just not right for you and that’s why you changed. I would not go more than 12-15 years ago on your resume though.

      Is it possible to get management experience where you are now? Maybe speak to your manager. I have someone on my team who really wants management experience but doesn’t have the experience HR thinks they need to move up to that level. I don’t like that in order to really move up in higher ed you usually have to leave universities.

      I offered to give them some higher level work and manage a PT staff member ( 6 months of the academic year). They knew this extra only came with a ‘slight’ temporary pay increase. I got HR to allow me to give them a temporary “Acting” title in addition to their normal title.

      We have a new role coming up on our team that has a little more seniority and management of 1-2 people. I also understand they may want to leave so am happy to be a reference and speak to her management style. If we didn’t communicate about their goals no one would have known.

    4. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

      Is it possible to summarize it in a section which doesn’t specify the company names? I agree this doesn’t work well if you don’t have successes that you can cite.

      Additional Experience:
      * Managed team of three junior teapot painters for special project which resulted in (monetary achievement).
      * Supervised front office staff at major manufacturer and documented simplified procedures which resulted in turnover rate reduction from 50% to 25% per year, saving company over $$$ annually.

  67. Next Steps*

    I am early-mid fifties and trying to decide if I should look for a new job or just hang in there until retirement. I have been at my current job for some 10 years. There are lots of things I like about the organization, but I see fewer opportunities for advancement unless I really hustle or possibly take some classes. I do fine at work, but the organization attracts lots of well-educated, type-A workers, and that is just not where I am. While in many ways a great organization, it also demands a lot from people, so there is no phoning it in for 5 years.

    I’ve considered job hunting, but I’ve heard pretty discouraging things from friends my age. I’m also not sure if a change would make me more motivated for a challenging role or if it is time to just downgrade into something less demanding. My spouse is self-employed, and my employment provides healthcare benefits and access to financial supports (we are considering moving), so taking some time off to figure this out is not my first choice.

    So, folks who have been at cross roads but hesitant to leap later in your careers, what options have you considered, and how have you gotten clarity on what to do?

    1. Tradd*

      I’m mid-50s myself. I hear from friends who are in their early 60s and are looking (they were laid off) that they are having a difficult time finding anything. However, I will say they will not consider anything that isn’t remote. They won’t even take hybrid. So be open to in office jobs and I expect you would have a leg up.

      1. pally*

        Seconding this. At least go on some interviews and get an idea of what the jobs are like. That way you’ll have a good idea of what ‘might have been’ if you do decide to stay put.

        There is an incredible amount of age discrimination out there. So be prepared for that.
        In my case, I tried for 8 years -in my 50’s – to find a new job. Got lots and lots of interviews. No job offers though. I did get a lot of “We went with the other candidate. Best of luck on your job search!”

    3. Sloanicota*

      I think you could also reframe this as being low to mid 50s is a good opportunity to look around if you’re worried about age discrimination in your final years of work before retirement – maybe you can get into a slot where you’d be happy to stay out the rest of your career. It doesn’t hurt to look around.

      1. Cj*

        yeah, you’re not getting any longer, so age discrimination will only get worse if you wait to look for a new job. start looking now and see if you find anything.

  68. Not a Rolodex*

    Does anyone have a good system for keeping track of all of their professional contacts? Like, is there a plugin for LinkedIn where you can annotate how you know someone, what you’ve learned about their skills, the types of people you should connect them with, etc?

    I’ve met a ton of people and have hundreds of LinkedIn connections. The problem is that now I can’t keep track of everyone. So I’ll be thinking, oh, I should introduce Sally to the guy I met at X event who I can’t remember any distinguishing details about. When it was a smaller group, I was pretty good at matching people to opportunities that can help them (job seekers to hiring managers, volunteers to orgs that need their expertise, etc). I also know there are people in my network who would happily help my career if I could remember who they are.

  69. MissMaple*

    Super low stakes: does anyone have interesting hard candy they like? I started chewing gum again to help with my focus some afternoons at work (it works, for me at least!), but it was making my jaw sore. I bought some Werthers Originals instead, but I’m board with the taste already.

    1. MissMaple*

      Oh, extra points for individually wrapped so I can put them in my candy jar on my desk. Points deducted for anything that turns tongues funny colors!

    3. Alex*

      My favorite are those guava candies that they sell at Asian grocery stores (you can sometimes find them at the counter at an Asian restaurant). They come in a green package.

    5. GoryDetails*

      There’s an outfit called Claeys that makes old-fashioned hard candies in a variety of flavors. I got a bag of the horehound ones from the gift shop at a heritage-village-type place and found them… interesting, though a bit more medicinal than I usually want in a candy. But that might make them a good choice for work, if you don’t want to be tempted to eat too many of them {wry grin}. (That company does make other flavors – cinnamon, sassafras, etc. But the horehound gets “unusual” points.)

    6. ferrina*

      Go to your local Asian grocery store. There’s a ton of great Japanese hard candies with flavors that are less common in the west- I usually go for the peach or lychee candies.

    10. Panicked*

      Zots! My daughter got me hooked on them. You can buy a ton on Amazon. If you can find one, the old Brach’s Pick-A-Mix kiosks have all sorts of fun ones. I love the root beer barrels, blue ice, and cinnamon cubes.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Their “chocolate caramel” and “chocolate coffee” flavors are not seasonal and are EXCELLENT. (Also, for folks who may need or prefer sugar free candy, sugar free Werthers do not taste like diet sadness – I actually prefer them to the regular strength ones.)

    12. Kerokerokeroppi*

      I was offered a coffee candy a few weeks ago while on vacation and they were so delicious I rushed out and got a big jar of them – to eat and to share. I find them in the Asian supermarket – H-Mart.

      Kopiko – I prefer the basic one that is all coffee.

      https://kopikousa.com/candy/

    13. MissMaple*

      Thanks everyone, my candy jar is definitely going to be the envy of the floor! Great suggestions, can’t wait to try all of these.

  70. Myrin*

    I mentioned a few weeks ago that I’d be part of a hiring panel and boy, was that an experience!

    I plan on writing a bit more about this in one of the upcoming open threads since I had asked about a few things on here beforehand and got some really helpful advice, but the main thing at the moment is:

    We found basically our ideal candidate who was head and shoulders above everyone else and who all three of us on the panel agreed was our undeniable top choice. Apart from him being an expert in and very enthusiastic about the subject matter he would be dealing with, he also just seems like someone who I’d genuinely enjoy working with and who’d be good for his subordinates who have had a very rough time with their current boss.

    I’m on vacation until Monday but if my boss stuck to his plan, he called him yesterday or today to offer him the job and I’m keeping my fingers crossed that he’ll accept!

  71. busybee*

    I’m applying to some new jobs and (getting way ahead of myself here), wondering what I do with current work commitments if I were to take one. I’m scheduled to speak at several conferences. Do I offer to do them in my new role (similar field)? See what if my current boss wants to take them over? Cancel? Just wondering if there is a done thing in this situation. (Later start date isn’t an option).

    1. ferrina*

      It depends. How did you get these speaking roles? Are these things that are more closely tied to you as an individual, or your role at the company? (i.e., did the conference organizer reach out to you, or did your company reach out to conference? did you submit with the blessing and support of your company, or with only their vague acknowledgement?) What are you presenting- is it a casestudy or research that you did with others at your company, or is it your general experience in the industry?

      If you are speaking as part of your role, then this will go to someone else at your company. That might be someone else who was on the project/research or whoever is most knowledgeable. In rare instance it might make sense for you to come back and present, but those cases are few and far between.

      If it’s something that the conference organizer reached out to you based on your experience in the industry as a whole, then it’s different. That’s something where you might be expected to speak even after changing companies. It can be very different if the conference organizer reaches out to you vs if you submit to them.

  72. Qwerty*

    Desk recommendations for home?

    I’m setting up two desk areas in my one bedroom apartment
    1. Work desk – job is 50% remote as a dev manager so I’ve got multiple monitors for writing lots of code plus needs to be a neat space for endless video calls
    2. Personal desk / workbench – want to get a better personal space set up for personal projects (coding, online classes, etc), 3D printing, sewing machine, etc.

    Currently I’ve got work set up in my dining nook on hardwood floor and the workbench does not exist but would be set up in my carpetted bedroom (so needs to be stable because spindly legs + carpet + 3D printer = mess). I’m thinking one of these should be a standing desk? Not really sure where to shop since I was unsuccessful at Ikea, which is where all my other furniture is from.

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Do these have to be separate areas? I currently have two desks arranged in an L-shape for work from home, with the main computer monitor in the corner portion. One side of the L is kept clear for my own sewing projects (sewing machine and serger are stored on top of filing cabinets beside the desk until they’re needed) while the other side has my laptop and other work stuff.

      I’m also in a one bedroom apartment, but I took over what’s probably supposed to be an eat-in kitchen space to do this.

      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Oh and the desks are from Wayfair, but they’re just basic metal frames with a surface on top, no drawers (I bought some separate shelving to put under one of the desks). Because of the L-shaped orientation, the legs of one of the desks ends up smack dab in the middle where the desks butt up against each other, but it actually doesn’t impact me too much. I think it’s currently called the “Chelmsford Metal Base Dining Table.”

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I actually just hacked together a workbench for my craft room out of Ikea bits — a 2×4 Kallax, horizontally placed on the leg base they sell, with a 74″ length of Ekbacken countertop (from their kitchen section) bolted on top. (I already had all of it except the leg base left over from other projects. Mine is also a house that Ikea built. :) )

      It’s a good standing height for me, at least, and has some useful storage options in the Kallax part due to the different inserts they sell for the cubes. (My sewing machine fits down in one of the cubes when it’s not in use, and while our original plan was to put the 3d printer on one end, I ended up having room to give it its own small table next to the workbench.)

  73. noncommittally anonymous*

    Two issues, which I will put in separate posts.

    Issue #1.

    Some backstory – my colleague, Fergus, is at the same level I am and manages a partner program. We’re both located on a different campus than the rest of the group, some distance away from the main location. He’s part-time, having retired as an executive in a related field. We reported to the same manager. Said manager left for a better job in May. Since then, our mutual grand-boss has been “managing” both programs by having biweekly virtual meetings with about 10-12 people in them. Seriously, it’s everyone who is even remotely involved in either program.

    My main problem with Fergus is that he’s never quite dropped his “executive” mindset, and is very fond of starting projects and then leaving them for the “little people” to finish. I know my former manager had several conversations with him about this, that I am not his secretary, and the support staff on this campus are here to support everyone and not just him.

    As an example, Fergus started a grant proposal, however, being part-time, he doesn’t have institutional authority to submit a grant, so he asked if it could be submitted in my name. I said sure, assuming that my role would be minimal. He got some stuff organized and then basically dropped the ball and said that it’s now in my name, so I needed to do everything else. He then left on vacation 1 week before the due date, saying, OK, you’re the PI. Get it finished. So, I ended up scrambling to get it done and submitted. He got back 2 weeks later and merely inquired if I’d gotten it submitted. I told then-manager that I would never do that again.

    Now, he had an idea for a new program that could potentially benefit both of our sections. He got it started, but now it’s entirely my staff that are completing all of the work. He had no idea how to do the scheduling, etc., so I ended up doing it. This is a fundamental part of our jobs, and I was stunned to realize he didn’t know the process. One of my staff members actually had to step back from one of his commitments (meaning I had to hire a temp) to get this new program off the ground. Yes, my program will benefit, but at this point, we’re the only ones doing any work (and my budget is taking a hit), and Fergus is getting all of the kudos for coming up with this wonderful, innovative idea.

    I used to be able to vent to my manager who could then tell Fergus to cool it some, though she also liked to say, well, he’s part-time! He can’t take care of everything. (Note: she also did a LOT of the management of Fergus’ program, again, saying he’s part-time. Not sure what will happen to those tasks now.)

    Well, now that our former manager is gone, and the “management” of both of our programs is through this gigantic group meeting, I don’t really have a way to communicate to Fergus to get his act together. My saying something directly to him would NOT be taken well, and would be considered NOT BEING A TEAM PLAYER in the extreme. I don’t have 1-on-1s with the grand-boss, and am a little hesitant to request them for this purpose, as I don’t want to come across as a whiner. Dropping the ball will be met with, well, Fergus had this wonderful idea, but noncommittal dropped the ball. This is why we can’t have nice things. I’ve picked up the majority of my former manager’s job, and I’m drowning, and don’t have time for Fergus’ nonsense anymore.

    Suggestions or just commiserations welcome!

    1. ChemistbyDay*

      I’ve been in a similar boat before – your best bet may be to schedule a meeting with Grandboss, but instead of whining, frame it as a brainstorming session. Say, “this is what I have on my plate. If I’m going to get Fergus’ idea up and running, what should get shelved/postponed/divvied to someone else?”. Maybe he gives you another temp? I’d also ask GB if setting up periodic 1:1s could be possible – a large meeting is awfully hard to get individual voices heard.

    2. Goddess47*

      If nothing else, if GrandBoss is your current supervisor, you are entitled to regular meeting with them. With or without the Fergus problem, you should be meeting with them.

      And, document, document, document. Suck it up and do weekly reports on what is going on, if you are not already doing regular, written reports, and show the time spent on projects. Cheerfully do the “I need to know which project to prioritize” request to grandboss so they see how often Fergus is doing this…

      Good luck!

  74. Lizabeth*

    Question for Alison: should HOA discussions go in the Friday or Weekend thread? Coming from the board member side and dealing with some homeowners that are over the top. I feel it could go in either but wanted to check. Thanks!

  75. kalli*

    Tips for typing-heavy work with a broken hand?
    (and yes, it’s actually broken)

    I currently have a brace and am waiting for imaging and ortho appt, but it’s getting worse and this week my output was a lot slower. The doctor said typing is fine but that’s when he thought it was RSI. I can’t extend that hand to press shift+anything or ctrl+anything and it’s also my mouse hand.
    Work don’t know yet although I will have to tell them in order to get a wrist rest reimbursed, and at the moment there isn’t any extra work for me as they hired a clerk to handle it instead so it’s not like I’m going to run out of time if I’m slow.

    My last interview didn’t go very well so if anyone also has tips about interviewing with a visible but temporary condition, that may also be helpful please.

    1. Qwerty*

      Do you need to type in your interviews? If so, warn the interviewer ahead of time that you have a broken hand and can’t type. See what suggestions they come up with. Maybe they’ll postpone the tech assessment to later in the process or give you extra time.

      I got surprisingly good at typing one-handed when I had really bad tendonitis in college. It takes a little practice but if you are normally a fast typer, then your one-handed pace will a normal person’s typing rate. (Been typing this post one handed to see if I still can – the trick is to focus on one word at a time rather than stream of consciousness)

    2. Alisaurus*

      Oof I have been there. Not exactly with the broken hand, but I tore a ligament in my right wrist several years ago and was in a brace that made it impossible to do anything with that hand for several months. Typing was absolutely out of the question (as was putting on jeans lol).

      I worked in the office at that time, so I couldn’t exactly hide the pain, and I had to ask off for the afternoon when I finally admitted to myself I needed a doctor. And then I went back to work with a huge brace and met with my boss to discuss the situation. Of course, I couldn’t hide it with an in-office job, but I would have told my manager right away regardless because she was awesome and also because it was a temporary medical condition that significantly impacted my work. My position had a LOT of typing involved. We immediately came to the understanding that I would be slower on output for a while. I also utilized voice-to-text features as much as I could, which definitely helped (although Idk whether this is a feature your computer has or if you’ll need to use your phone and email yourself – I had to do both at times, but it was still faster regardless).

      As far as the mouse, maybe you could look into a trackpad if switching the mouse input to left-handed doesn’t work for you? I’m somewhat ambidextrous so it was less difficult for me to switch.

      Best wishes for your recovery!

    3. Mimmy*

      Would you consider speech-to-text as a temporary solution? If you use Microsoft Word, it has a built-in dictation feature.

      As a typing instructor, I also want to offer a couple of tips for using Shift and Control
      – First, I assume you’re a touch-typist and normally extend your pinkies to reach for Shift or Control. Some of my students, who don’t have hand injuries, find it awkward to reach for the Shift. I tell them it’s okay to move your whole hand down as long as you can quickly and accurately go back to home position. It may feel awkward for you at first, but it may help.
      – You might also want to try Sticky Keys. Rather than having to press two keys at the same time, this allows you to strike the keys sequentially. For example, rather than doing SHIFT+S to make a capital S, you would do SHIFT, then S. It’s meant for one-handed typing, but it might help you if you’re slower with key combinations.

  76. noncommittally anonymous*

    Issue #2

    My colleague in the next office is a slurper. He smacks his lips and crunches loudly when eating his lunch. Once a few weeks ago, I was helping him with a computer issue and he actually leaned over my shoulder and chewed loudly DIRECTLY IN MY EAR. We have separate offices, but I can quite clearly hear him eating an apple right now.

    Last week, I thought, OK, you have an office with a door. Use it! So I kept closing my door anytime he ate anything, and had the quietest day I’ve ever had here. Except, 4 or 5 people asked my for the entire next day if I was feeling OK, was anything wrong? because I closed my office door and I virtually never do that. I could potentially train them over time to accept a closed door from me, but that’s very much not the culture here.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Can you get a white noise machine for your office so you can keep the door open but not hear his eating sounds so clearly?

    2. ferrina*

      If he’s right in your ear, you can say “Wow, you are chewing right in my ear!”
      He may feel embarrassed, but that’s okay. Chewing directly next to someone’s ear is rude.

      Otherwise- headphones?

    3. Cathy*

      Around here, people will say I’m working on something and need to concentrate so my door is shut, but feel free to come in if you need something. Maybe you can start that trend? Put a sticky note on your door to that effect.

      1. Cj*

        I would skip the part about the door being closed because you’re concentrating on something, because even if you say feel free to come in I think a lot of people will hesitate to distribute. I think the sign is a good idea, but just feel free to come on in, without any reason as to why your door is shut.

    4. WorkerDrone*

      Someone right in your ear? Lean away (be a little performative) and say, friendly, “Oh, can you give me some space while you’re chewing?”

      For your door, I’d do a mix of things:

      One, a white noise machine in your office, quiet instrumental music, nature noises, anything for background noise.

      Two, have your door almost entirely closed but cracked (so, it’s visible the door isn’t fully shut but so that there isn’t space between the door and frame if that makes sense). Stick a sign on the door or next to it that says something like, “Welcome! Please come in.”

      And three, if anyone asks, just say something like: “Oh, once in awhile I need to really concentrate so I’ll close my door. Please don’t hesitate to knock or come in, though!”

      You won’t need to say that too many times before people know that a closed door doesn’t mean “not OK”. It just read oddly because this is the first time, you won’t get that reaction once people get used to it.

    5. Synaptically Unique*

      There’s a great little stick-on door gadget that’s less than $10 from Amazon. You spin the wheel to the relevant statement (lots of different variations, so check the messages before you decide which one to get). Welcome, come in, do not disturb, please knock, back soon, etc. I second the white noise machine idea. And also, smaller aggravations are harder to dismiss when you’re already overwhelmed, which you clearly are. Give yourself a little grace and do whatever you need to do to get through this period.

  77. Dolce Ryvita*

    I was wondering how people feel about things written in ALL CAPS in a work context. It always strikes me as needlessly rude, and I’d advise people on my team not to do it. But maybe I’m being too critical here?

    Latest case in point was an email from a company holding a one-day training that some
    of us were scheduled to take on-site at their facility. It contained sentences like this: “We also DO NOT PROVIDE BEVERAGES and participants will have to bring their own.” To me, it sounds exasperated and a bit patronising, and I was wondering what the commentariat’s take is.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      It doesn’t bug me per se, but I immediately take people less seriously when they do it, so it’s still not having the desired effect they want. But that’s also because of the context in which people tend to do it, it’s always in some weird passive aggressive scenario (“Your MOTHER doesn’t work here, clean your own DISHES!”).

      1. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

        I do exactly the same when I see randomly all caps words, mainly because of the context where I most frequently see them (social media comments).
        I do understand and like using them as a header, or to otherwise break up sections, in a program that doesn’t allow bolding, font size changes, or some other way of breaking up a document into sections.

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Needlessly rude, but I think the bigger issue is accessibility. Screen readers don’t always play nice with all caps words, interpreting them instead as acronyms and reading out each individual letter. All caps without increased letterspacing is generally harder to read, but that’s especially true for folks with dyslexia, learning disabilities, or vision impairment.

    3. Cordelia*

      I think of ALL CAPS as being shouted at. It’s rude. They clearly have had issues with people complaining about the lack of beverages, so need to make sure people read this part of the message, but I think there are ways of being heard that aren’t just shouting.

      Please note! We are not able to provide beverages, so please bring your own!

      In a line of its own, or highlighted, or different font, or something. I don’t know why this is politer than ALL CAPS, but to me it is!

    4. ferrina*

      The example you provided made me sympathetic to the person writing the email. At my company, I’m the person at the other end of these emails. I prefer to bold or underline (rather than all caps), but the reason is the same- because people don’t read. They skim and assume. I’m trying to highlight the key information that might otherwise be missed, usually because it has been missed in the past.

      This sounds like they have an issue where people assume they are providing beverages and it’s causing problems. That sounds like a normal problem that can happen in a normal business.

      1. WorkerDrone*

        Yes, I completely agree.

        All-caps is kinda rude, it’s like being shouted at – but, I guarantee this comes out of desperation because people aren’t reading emails and the person writing is sick and tired of telling people “We don’t have drinks” over and over and over again (and, presumably dealing with the annoyed people who expected drinks).

        I also tend to prefer bolding/underlining/both, but this is definitely happening because otherwise the message is lost.

      2. Pay no attention...*

        I agree with Ferrina. This sounds like they are using caps as an emphasis to something that probably has been a point of complaint before. I wouldn’t read it as rude in this specific context. If it were bold, underlined, highlighted in yellow, bigger pt size and all caps… that would be pretty aggressive and rude. To be honest, I no longer think of all caps in an email as 100% shouting in general — I look at the context and nuance.

      3. Zephy*

        I also generally prefer to add emphasis with bold/italics/underline, but sometimes certain email programs struggle with formatting like that and either remove just the formatting or remove all of the formatted text – not a great look when you’re trying to, say, emphasize that you do *not* have this or *don’t* need to do that.

    5. Karstmama*

      It depends. I had a job that had an ancient computer system (it was DOS based) that had several fields that only accepted capitals. Lots of us just cap locked and kept it that way. We explained to new folks that we weren’t shouting. There could be reasons.

    6. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I know that some people interpret all-caps as shouting. But there are plenty of people who grew up with systems that did not all font changes, bolds, etc. and use all-caps as pure emphasis. There are also work cultures (law enforcement in particular) where all-caps are used as a matter of course. “Officers asked JOHN DOE why he had a weapon in his car.”

  78. Agent 99*

    How do you manage someone you don’t trust? I have a team member who performs elements of her job very well but in the past has complained about my coaching to others (different people in different teams, so I don’t think there were any shenanigans involved). When I discussed this with her he denied it. I stressed that he needs to bring complaints or concerns to me so I can try to address them. Things improved for a while, and this person was promoted to a supervisory role on the team (I had reservations, but because of our CBA she was eligible for this promotion internally and was the only person who applied, so my hands were tied). Recently, another staff member submitted a harassment claim against her–the HR investigation found no corroborating evidence that anything had occurred and next week she’ll return from her paid leave. But given her past behavior, I’m honestly wary of trusting her, especially as she works in a satellite office. I’ll add, for what it’s worth, that I’ve been managing people for over a decade and have always received positive reviews from my reports (as in, “best boss ever”). But I’ve based that on a culture of trust, and I just don’t have that with her. Any thoughts on how I can get over this mental block, and actionable suggestions on how I should handle our meetings and communication moving forward?

    1. Goddess47*

      Document, document, document.

      For 1-1 meetings, always follow up with a cheery, “Good discussion. Just to make sure I got it all, we discussed X, Y, and Z, and agreed on [things].”

      Whenever there’s a third party report of a problem, see if they will at least send it to you in an email, even if they won’t report it themselves. Or at least note for yourself time, date, discussion, so you can have a trail.

      If you’re comfortable doing so, bring it up to your boss… hopefully, you’d have the political capital to have an off-the-record discussion. Maybe someone else has talked to them and that would generate concern at that level.

      No simple answer. Good luck!

    2. Water, water, everywhere*

      I had a similar situation. I created a lateral role that was created specifically to encompass the duties that played to his strengths. Since it was in a different job family, I even billed it as a promotion (better title) and managed a raise as well. This wasn’t a fabricated position, but it consolidated certain duties that were spread across the entire office previously. Incidentally, it shifted back to an IC role with no more direct reports. I will never inflict that on anyone else under my authority and I’ve made sure the VP knows supervising isn’t an acceptable job duty for Fergus ever, though Fergus continues to think very highly of his skills in this area (how? No idea!).

    3. Jeneral*

      Your instincts are probably correct and you shouldn’t trust her. I agree that you should document everything. Be careful about anything you tell her and verify anything she tells you where the accuracy is important. Can you set up periodic meetings with your skip level reports, so you’ll hopefully catch signs if anything is ary?

  79. JaneJane*

    Hi all! I’m in need of some help formulating a game plan to meet with my boss on Monday.
    Here’s the gist: My boss and I don’t get along. He’s been my boss for about six months (I’ve been here for 5 years) and it’s been horrible. I’m a technical writer and also write blog posts for the company. I send my work to him for approval, and always get really minute edits. I shouldn’t say, “We design efficient systems that best suit your company’s needs”. I should say, “We are dedicated to designing efficient systems that are suited to your company’s needs in the best way possible”. It’s not, “Our organization hosted a volunteer day for staff. Check out the pictures below!” it’s “Our organization has hosted a day of volunteering. Make sure to check out the pictures below!” Every single one of my sentences is changed. When I use his edits, I get told my work is “boring” and that I’m a bad writer. When I read his work to figure out what he’s looking for, I read things like “Our competitor’s programs have a 70% success rate. Wow! Incredible!” And then there’s no follow up saying something like “But we have an 80% success rate!” He also overwhelms me with work. My coworkers have a project once a month and I have ten of a similar scope and length. When I brought up my exhaustion, he said that I could either get on board or leave. He’s already threatened to write me up (because I didn’t send him pictures I took of an event, causing him to scramble to find some for a blog post. I didn’t know he was looking!) and I expect that on Monday, he will (I had a project that only permitted 1000 characters. He’s angry that I didn’t include a customer success story in the space). I want to come into the Monday meeting prepared to defend myself. I could really use a script since I’m not good at these sort of things!
    As a side note, I am absolutely trying to leave. However, I don’t want to leave with my reputation tarnished. I just want to stand up for myself in this meeting.

    1. MsM*

      Honestly, I think your best strategy is just to humor him until you’re able to get out of there. Maybe make sure you get all of his suggestions in writing and follow up to confirm so he can’t pull the “I told you to do Y, not X” when he definitely said X game. But it sounds like he’s made up his mind, and I don’t think trying to push back will have any kind of positive impact. Including making you feel better, unfortunately.

      1. Tio*

        Yeah, I predict you will push back, he will get defensive and angry, you will get upset and not feel listened to (and you won’t be!) and no one will go home happy.

        You can try and go in and ask for some clear writing guidelines to better suit his style, and ask him some questions about “We don’t have enough space for this story, what is it you want me to prioritize in that kind of situation and what parts did you think we should have cut to make it work?” but he is your boss and gets to decide style and content even if it’s bad. Pushing back too hard will most likely only cause problems for you.

        You can maybe ask about the distribution of labor if you really have 10 projects to your coworkers’ 1-2 but it sounds like you already did that and he doesn’t really care? If you did frame it as your exhaustion, maybe you could try framing it as a workload balance in comparison, but overall I’m not really thinking you’re gonna have a great outcome here.

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      But as an aside: when you have to use more and longer words, it’s usually a sign of bad writing.

    3. Glazed Donut*

      I agree with MsM. Is there someone else on your team who you could get to look over your work before submitting it to the boss? Maybe someone whose writing he does like?
      Even if that person doesn’t change your writing, it could show you’re proactive with ‘adjusting’ to his demands.
      Sorry you’re going through this.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Great idea. I agree that you’re probably not going to please this guy and I don’t think “stand up for yourself” fits with your goal of staying employed here and leaving on decent terms. Look for alternate work flows that can get you out of this guys crosshairs. I’ve never seen a nitpicking boss really turn it around and decide the employee was great, so it’s probably not an option to get him to recognize your talents, sadly. Your best option is to keep your head down until you can transfer or leave.

    4. WestsideStory*

      There’s no way you are going to win this, and I suggest you don’t try. Instead focus on the parameters of the media you are working with.

      Start off with, “I agree with your suggestions and I just want us to get on the same page regarding the requirements of the projects. For example, for X Social Media site, we are limited to 1000 characters, and I see this was a problem last week. When we run into that kind of situation, would you prefer I use two postings instead of one, to tell the story?”

      The big issue is he does not like how you write things. So next time you get an edit, use his edits, don’t push back. At the end of the day, you are only responsible for the effort, not the results. If the end result sucks, not your fault.

      With regard to your reputation – start collecting screenshots, portfolio pieces of what you consider the good stuff you’ve done. Normally corporate writing doesn’t carry a byline, so you don’t have to worry about prospective employers searching your website for your name.

      I hope this helps – and by the way, you may want to study up so you can refresh your writing skills. If you’ve been doing this for the company for five years, perhaps your tone is a bit stale? That can sometimes be the result of the fact that you are overworked – no time to sit and creatively thing about a blog post, for example. But it doesn’t sound like he cares about you being overworked.

      He may be expecting you to explode or “be emotional” during your meeting so do your best to calm and not defensive. You can always say, “Look I’m glad we are having this meeting because I really want to be on the same page as you as far as these materials we are putting out.”

      The main strategy is whenever he names a problem, you come up with a solution. For example:

      If he starts talking about a certain project he didn’t like, counter with. “I see what you mean! Later this week can you send me some samples of the style you like better?”

      If he demurs, then, “Perhaps we should put together a departmental style guide? John and Joanna have smaller workloads than I do so perhaps they can put one together for us all to use?”

      Regarding photos: if you are swamped with writing, why are you assigned to take photos? “Should I be de-priorizing my field work? What do you think?” etc.

      After the meeting, just yes to every change he suggests, work only your paid hours and save your energy for job-hunting.

      Good luck and don’t stress. Into every life some glass bowls fall, and this one is yours. Enjoy the weekend FIRST.

    5. A Significant Tree*

      I agree that the best approach for Monday is to go in and sound as agreeable as you can, and just get through the meeting. Standing up for yourself might not be the best way to think about it – it sounds like you tried that over the workload issue and he didn’t respond well, which makes me think he’s not going to respond well if you (rightly) point out that you didn’t know he needed something he didn’t ask you for. If he’s set on writing you up over something like that, there are no magic words that will change his mind.

      For talking points, maybe you could ask about examples of the voice or style that he’s looking for in your writing? (You don’t have to agree with it, just to better understand why he’s making these kinds of edits) I 100% don’t think he’s going to be able to talk about it any usable way (e.g. “Just write better!”), but you’re demonstrating that you’re trying to ‘improve.’

      Another one would be on standard practices – for example, does he want it to be a formal process that you (or whoever) send pics of an event to him within 24 hours of that event, just in case he needs them? Or what are his top 3 must-haves in any blog post? Again, I’m guessing that he’s not going to have good answers ready for any of these totally reasonable questions, and in all probability will just keep looking for reasons to be upset. But if you can gently shift some of the burden of trying to figure out what he wants back on him, that might give you a little space.

      Finally, in addition to having a side conversation with some of your coworkers to gauge their experience with him, is the grandboss someone you could have a skip-level meeting with? Not to vent or complain, but maybe to provide a little visibility into how the new manager is handling longer-term employees. If you previously had more autonomy over your work and positive feedback, and suddenly you’re being micro-edited and (possibly) written up for not predicting your manager’s needs, you may need some help in identifying how to be successful under this new-ish manager.

    6. Aggretsuko*

      He sounds like the kind of guy who has to be in charge, have his say, and put his “stamp” on things and correct you no matter what. All you can do is let it go and let him do what he wants.

      I’m reminded of that AAM letter recently where the awful boss was chastising her for not thinking of what the boss secretly wanted her to think of.

    7. TheBunny*

      You don’t have to attend every fight you are invited to.

      Do you have to go to the meeting? Yes. Do you have to make it confrontational? No.

      I’ve had a boss like this. The issue isn’t your work, it’s his need to feel in control. You could quote him and he’d still find issue because it’s what he needs to feel like he’s controlling things.

      Go to the meeting. Listen, take notes so he feels heard and leave the meeting in an excellent headspace to perform really well…in those interviews.

      Good luck

  80. Forest Hag*

    How do I get better at breathing while I do presentations?

    I have a bad habit of not breathing when I have to talk at length. I started a new job as a consultant, so that means I’m going to be doing a LOT of presentations. I’m fine with this – I’ve gotten way better at presentations over the years, and don’t get nearly as nervous as I used to, but I still get somewhat nervous when it’s a presentation where I have to talk at length (especially to higher-level people). When I’m doing more of a conversational presentation with people – asking them questions, engaging in dialogue – I’m totally fine. It’s the ones where I’m the only person talking for an extended period of time, and it seems like I forget to breath as part of that nervousness. I do practice quite a bit before I have to give presentations, so I’m not just winging it.

    Are there any tricks or programs that can help with this? I feel like this is a really dumb problem and it’s kind of embarrassing. My boss says I will get better at it over time, and as I get more comfortable with our work. I’ve been in this role for 2 months – I did part of our presentation the other day, and he seemed totally fine with how I handled myself, but I was breathless at the end of my piece and had to turn off my camera briefly so I could suck in some oxygen. Any advice is appreciated!

    1. Pay no attention...*

      Do you use any slides or videos as part of your presentations? You could build in moments where something plays on a screen for 30 seconds, or there’s some sort of visual cue in the slide, that only you would know, that reminds you to have a dramatic pause for a bit. Can you discretely hide some sort of timer in your pocket that vibrates every 7 minutes — whatever you time into your presentation — to remind you to take a small break?

    2. kalli*

      If you can use hand held notecards or projected slides, when you prepare them make each slide cover 2-3 points and relatively self-contained. Every time you change to the next one, train yourself to take a deep breath.

      Whether write your presentations out completely or just use notes, try actually doing the other one for a bit. If you write your presentations out completely, make breath marks in between paragraphs, or about ever 5-6 lines. If you just use notes, make a breath mark every 2-3 points. When you get to a breath mark – breathe, look up, check for hands up or ask for questions if appropriate.

      1. Forest Hag*

        I had not thought of writing out breath marks, I will try that out, thanks! I am fully remote so most of my presentations are done during webinars, and I have my notes in a notepad off screen.

    3. DrSalty*

      Have you ever tried practicing your talks and deliberately stopping to take breath? If you practice it enough, it can become muscle memory and your body will do it effortlessly even when you’re stressed. Even just making a habit of noticing your breath throughout the day and checking in could be helpful. Then the habit to notice will be established, and you can direct yourself to breath when you notice you’re not.

      1. Forest Hag*

        When I was practicing the other day, I tried to make sure I didn’t go too fast (another nervous habit of mine), and be intentional about the breathing….but then I felt like I was going to slow. So I need to find that balance on pacing and breathing. I think I also just tighten up more than I think I am, and that inhibits me from taking deeper breaths.

        I have a tendency to run on in my every day speech….I feel like everyone needs to have ALL THE DETAILS FOR AN INFORMED DECISION, so I tend to talk fast and fill it with a lot of content. I’m also working on that. :D

    4. Ginger Cat Lady*

      If you’re using slides, take a moment for a full inhale and exhale between slides. Then inhale before talking about the next slides. As long as you do this regularly, it will be quiet and not a loud “suck in oxygen” breath.
      There are different schools of thought on this, but personally, I’d advance the slide so the *new* one is on the screen while you take this pause. Gives them something to look at/read while you’re taking that pause. Also, there’s no need to announce the pause. It would only be 2-3 seconds. I promise you, no one attending the meeting will notice or care about a 2 second pause between slides.
      Break up your content so you’re not on one slide for a long time (this is good practice anyway!)
      If you’re not using slides, find similar points. You could easily do this as you change topics, too. “Now let’s move on and consider third quarter sales so far.” Pause.
      Remember, the people you’re presenting to need a minute to process, too!
      Some other tips:
      Get comfortable with silence. Especially when you’re asking a group for something. “Anyone ever heard about X?” and pause for answers. I used to count in my head with my breaths. 5 sets of in/out before I spoke again. I no longer need the counting, I’m comfortable waiting.
      Use less lecture in your presentations. Even in large groups you can do a mini brainstorm, have someone share their experiences, etc.

    5. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      So here are two off-the-wall questions – bear with me.
      1) Did you ever play a wind or brass instrument, or do any formal choral instruction?
      2) Have you ever done snorkling or scuba?

      Both of those activities require conscious control of your breath, learning to breathe slowly and deeply, use of the diaphragm, etc. that are useful for presentation speaking. Whenever I feel myself getting a bit out of control when speaking, I fall back on those techniques.

      If you haven’t done any of those, you can probably find some easy instructional videos on line.

      1. Forest Hag*

        I have done #1 – I used to play flute and I also sing and have done voice lessons. I’ve been trying to implement those techniques but I think there are other things making me nervous that I’m not aware of. I’ll keep peeling the onion layers. :D Thank you!

  81. Bloopbot*

    Does your office have EV chargers available to employees? If so, how is their use handled? Is it first come, first served, or is there a reservation system?

    I’m curious because my office has some, which were already installed when we moved into the building earlier this year. There are more EVs than chargers, and so far no system has been implemented so they are first come, first served. Though some norms have developed (i.e. no one should use a charger every day, if you leave for lunch the charger is fair game for someone else to take). The office is hiring and growing in population so I’m interested in how other places handle this, in case we need to move to a more formal system.

    1. Annie E. Mouse*

      I work for a huge company that has a few EV chargers. We have a row of parking places on the side of the garage near the chargers that are earmarked for EVs. Users are asked to park at the charger for only as long as it takes to charge and then move to one of the reserved spots, freeing up the charger for the next person. I think they use a teams channel or something to communicate.

      I don’t drive an EV, so I don’t know how well people actually adhere to it or whether it works.

    2. Alisaurus*

      My last job was a large company (over 1k employees on campus) and had maybe 2 dozen EV chargers. The understanding was that you moved your car as soon as you realistically could once it was charged. There was a Teams channel specifically for EV drivers to coordinate charging, and Facilities would pop in from time to time asking people to move their cars if they’d been there a significant length of time. As far as I know, that worked pretty well.

      (That’s all I know because I wasn’t an EV driver, but I knew some of the goings on from being one of the assistants on staff.)

    3. Panicked*

      The company I work for installs and services EVSE’s across the US. So I’m definitely biased towards charging infrastructure. I would love if your company would add more charging stations, because if you’re having to leapfrog each other and watch for open chargers closely, you definitely need more!

      I’m assuming that you have Level 2 charging, which could take most of the work day to charge a vehicle if it’s low. What I’ve seen mostly is that those who need more charging time will park the furthest away, those who need less charging time will park closer. Many places will have signs up on those spots, saying that there is a time limit. 2 hours is pretty standard. Most people are cognizant of charging time, so they’ll move out quickly.

    4. spcepickle*

      We are first come first serve with company cars always getting top priority. We are a small group, so everyone knows who’s car is on the charger – if you want to use a charger but they are full there is “on-deck” parking. Once someone’s car is fully charged they will tell the next person that they are moving their car off the charger. If your car is one where you can open the charger door without a key they will often plug in for you.

      You could give your local electric company a call, we were offered a pretty good incentive from them to install more chargers. It paid for about 75% of the charging stations, and if we we had the let the electric company manage and charge for charger use they would have covered the whole cost.

    5. PropJoe*

      We have a single digit number of EV charging spots at my work. Employer policy limits everyone to four hours at a stretch, no more than once per day. We have a parking enforcement staff so presumably they monitor it.

  82. A Thoughtful Rejection*

    I had a phone interview earlier today for a job that won’t work for a few logistical reasons. I’m luckily in a position that I don’t need this job, but was extended an interview invitation a few hours later.
    I don’t want to waste their time or mine so I’m going to decline, but just wondering if anyone has a good script for that.
    (In an ideal world I would have said so on the phone but I got nervous about potentially breaking social mores about politeness. Something to practice for the next time I interview!)

    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Thank you for taking your time today to speak with me I enjoyed learning more about the position and company
      For logistical reason X I am withdrawing my candidacy for this position. Good luck with your search.

  83. Rainbow Care Bear*

    Just looking for commiseration/solidarity. I am pregnant in my first trimester and feel crushingly exhausted and nauseous all day, but I’m still working a 40+ hour work week. I can give nowhere near 100% right now, so not only do I feel physically bad, but I also feel bad about not working as much or at as high of a level as I’m used to. Tips for not beating yourself up about this?

    1. Medium Sized Manager*

      You are giving 100% of what you have! I always tell my pregnant team members to remember that pregnancy is classified as a disability because of how it affects your day to day function, so it’s reasonable to not be 100%. Heck, for the last month, I tell them showing up is good enough for me.

      And honestly, the advice is the same whether you are pregnant or dealing with a different chronic illness or an unexpected life stress or just a really bad day.

      2. Rainbow Care Bear*

        Thanks! I needed this. You sound like a great manager. I always thought it was weird pregnancy was classified as a disability but now I get it.

        1. RightThereWithYou*

          Mid-second-trimester here, still pretty sleepy but nowhere near first trimester exhaustion. It’s not just that growing a whole extra person takes energy, in the first trimester especially you’re being flooded with progesterone, which makes you more tired. This is just a temporary lowering of work productivity, it likely won’t even be this bad for your whole pregnancy, but even if it is that’s really not that long in a working life.

    2. ferrina*

      You are absolutely normal. I read somewhere (maybe in What To Expect) that growing a baby is roughly the equivalent of running a marathon. You are creating an entire human out of nothing- that is a LOT of work. Please be gentle with yourself!

  84. Anonymousse Parfait*

    Question for an accounting/finance gurus out there: Is it a standard business practice to amortize a credit memo over time?

    Scenario: I work for a company that provides repair services for customers, typically in the form of an annual contract. From a finance perspective, we will invoice the customer upfront for the contract amount, but only recognize the revenue over the course of the year (so for example a $12,000 contract would show revenue in our ledger $1,000 each month).

    Continuing with this $12,000 example, we have a customer that has penalty language in their agreement – if we don’t meet certain predetermined metrics, we owe them back 10% of what we invoiced them for last year. They have asked for this to show as a credit on their next upcoming renewal. My original plan was to invoice them the full $12,000 for this year’s contract, and then issue a $1200 credit against last year’s invoiced amount. From my perspective this is the most accurate way to reflect the transactions.

    My manager has asked me to process this year’s invoice for just $10,800 and not process a separate credit memo. I believe this is because of the impact this would have on our revenue. If I invoice for $12,000, and then do a separate credit for $1,200, we will show only $1,000 in revenue, but the full negative $1,200 in credit would also show up making it look like we have a negative revenue number for this customer. If I only do the $10,800, we will show $900 in revenue for the month.

    Does this pass the “sniff test” – it is basically spreading the impact of that credit over the next 12 months, rather than recognizing it all right now. It doesn’t feel right, but I am just the billing person and don’t know all the details of finance.

    1. Strive to Excel*

      Short answer: Your manager is more wrong but you might want to double check.

      So first thing – if you’re doing a lot of this kind of contract and you don’t have an in-house CPA, I very strongly recommend getting a CPA consult done to check over your billing. Revenue accounting is notoriously complex. I’m also assuming you are a) in the US , b) using accrual accounting and not cash accounting (recognizing revenue as earned, not as cash is received), and c) not a government agency (theirs is very weird).

      *Revenue* wise – that 1,200 should be hitting last year’s revenue numbers. It shouldn’t show up in this year’s at all, not this month and not spread out through the year. You are correct that you should be issuing a credit against last year, but it shouldn’t be showing up on your current year revenue with them.

      *Cash* wise that 1,200 will hit your current month cash, so you will have negative *receipts*.

      Also, when you recognize the *revenue*, you (as in you the company) should do that based on the expected price for the year you will get. If you expect you will hit your metrics for the year, you should recognize the invoice for 12k for the year and plan to show 1000 in revenue for the month. If you don’t think you’ll hit the metric and will only get 10,800 again, then no matter how much cash they give you the monthly revenue should only be 900. This is called Variable Consideration, is notoriously complex, and as I said is something that on a larger scale you would need to have an accountant look at exactly what is going on with the contract and your expectations.

  85. Chicky*

    I asked last week about how much of a job description you need to meet before really having a chance at the job & got a lot of great responses. Now I’m curious if there are any US federal workers here and what they would say about this topic for federal jobs. There’s one I’m really interested in but don’t meet all the requirements. I know I can just apply and take a chance, but I’m trying to get a sense of what my chances will be. I’ve heard that federal jobs are stricter about having to meet the requirements to even get an interview. Anyone have any first hand knowledge or experience?

    1. ferrina*

      In general, federal jobs are way harder to get into than private sector. There’s a ton of applicants, weird restrictions and requirements on the backend, and all sorts of oddness. And it takes for.ev.er. It’s not uncommon to get an email from USAjobs saying that you have been rejected for that job that you applied to 3 years ago.

      So yeah, you can apply, but do so with the same attitude as you would buying low-chance lottery ticket.

      1. Random Academic Cog*

        Depends on the job. If it requires a minimum education level in a specific discipline, you might get past the initial HR screen as long as you have the minimum degree even though it’s in a different discipline. If they require a credential or license you don’t have, don’t waste your time. Often they’ll list “preferred” qualifications that may or may not be the difference in which applications are moved forward. Experience requirements may not be as rigid as they sound in the listing, but that also depends on how many applicants tick every item on the wishlist. If they only have a couple of “perfect on paper” candidates, but they are both turkeys in interviews, they’ll be way more interested in a “decent on paper” candidate who interacts well with the interview panel.

    2. Emmy*

      Generally you need to be able to show that you meet the “Minimum Eligibility Requirements ” in the lowest pay grade of the announcement to get through screening. However, you can meet those in various ways–education, military experience, corporate experience, interships, Americorps, Peace Corps, even volunteer experience. And you have to show clearly in your resume how you meet them. I recommend taking one of the free classes advertised on USAjobs specifically for federal resume writing. You just have to be able to show how your experience matches the requirements. Federal resumes are generally much longer to accommodate this (mine is the maximum 5 pages for my agency). As an example: I’m an immigration benefits officer. It requires very specialized legal knowledge. But people from outside the agency have been able to get these jobs (at entry level) with a variety of backgrounds: VA benefits processor, Social Security benefits specialist, border patrol agent, customs inspector, lawyer/paralegal, passport agent etc by showing how their experience in another field involved similar tasks. I had years of significant volunteer experience in immigration (along with other qualifications) that helped me as well, and that’s not something private companies will always consider. Hope that helps

  86. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

    Some job applications I’ve completed recently have an optional section for languages. English is the only language I’m really fluent in (I took courses in other languages over the years, but I’m not fluent enough to work in any of them). Since the applications are all in English and based in the US, I assume they’re really asking about other languages, but they never actually say that. I usually leave the section blank and assume they know I speak English, but is this the right move? Should I be listing English (or even one of the languages I speak at more of a beginner level)?

    1. ferrina*

      What language are you applying in? They will assume that you are fluent in that language. Don’t list it.

      As for additional languages- don’t list languages that you aren’t at least conversational in. That section is so they know if you have any translational value (even if you aren’t doing translation work, it can be really helpful to know who on staff can speak different languages in case it ever comes up, like if you have a customer that would benefit from translation or if you are doing work with a population that speaks a different language than the language your company operates in)

      1. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

        Thank you for responding! This is along the lines of what I was thinking, but I wanted a gut check. The applications and my materials are all in English, and my French is borderline conversational at best, so I’ll continue to leave the question blank. I just wanted to make sure it wouldn’t look like I hadn’t read through the application.

    2. Dolce Ryvita*

      This is fairly standard where I’m from, and generally people list their languages alongside an indication of their proficiency. So it might be something like

      French (C2)
      Spanish (B1)

      or

      Russian (intermediate)
      Polish (basic)

      Also, for people who grew up bilingual, you sometimes see something like:

      French, German (native speaker)
      Italian (intermediate)

  87. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

    I’m writing a letter for an associate as if I were her admin (for reasons). It’s important that this is documented as the Dread Pirate Buttercup writing on behalf of Maria von Trapp. How do I notate the bottom of the letter? Would it be MvT:dpb or MVT:dpb?

    1. RagingADHD*

      Is Maria in the US or in a German-speaking country?

      In the US, a compound surname is alphabetized by the first letter of the first part of the compound, and the dame capitalization is used in references as in text, so her default initials would be MvT. If the V were capitalized, that would indicate that her middle name is Victoria (or Victor-Victoria, as the case may be).

      My understanding of German usage is a bit out of date, but IIRC, the “von” is often dropped, as it is considered more like an honorific than a proper name.

      1. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

        Thanks! I thought so (the surname prefix doesn’t begin with v, but she does not capitalize it). Your explanation makes sense!

        1. RagingADHD*

          Oh, other languages are different, so if Maria prefers the style to follow her heritage, you should go with that.

  88. Your Oxford Comma*

    I miss the Friday Good News updates. Reading them was like having to work just ½ day on Fridays. Perhaps I missed why they aren’t a thing anymore. In a world full of banana-pants craziness, they were a positive, happy balm.

    1. Goddess47*

      There was a note, I think in the flash round Alison did a bit ago, that they aren’t read as much as some of the others… I, too, miss it!

  89. Annie E. Mouse*

    LW #1 from this morning got me thinking about this one, and I guess I just need a gut check about whether I’m too sensitive or not. I’ll preface that I have a lot of religious trauma in my background, so it’s entirely possible that this is a me thing.

    I work for a large multi-national corporation. We’re headquartered in the US South, but we have offices and employees everywhere. I have a coworker that I interact with occasionally who has a religious email signature. It has “(follower of Jesus)” formatted in parentheses where you’d often see pronounces and then has a biblical quote at the bottom, which it seems that she changes a few times/month.

    Obviously this is unprofessional, but does this rise to the level of saying something? It makes me uncomfortable every time I see it, but would it bother the average non-traumatized person?

    1. HonorBox*

      Since you’re part of corporation and not a small business, chances of running into someone outside of the business who is also uncomfortable with this are much higher. You probably aren’t that close with this coworker since it is only occasional interaction, so I’d flag it with your boss. And I think you can pass the buck a little bit. tell them it makes you mildly uncomfortable, but you’re also worried that it could make customers, vendors, etc. more uncomfortable.

    2. ferrina*

      Yep, it would absolutely bother me. My sibling is a pastor, and things like this bother her too. Also, if memory serves- didn’t Jesus say something about how the Pharisees public declarations of prayer and devotion were gauche and performative, and how prayer and devotion should be done in a private space and in a humble way?

      That said….since you are in the South, some places will react well to your complaint and some will not. If you choose not to complain because you don’t think it’s safe, that’s reasonable.

      1. a trans person*

        Please don’t dump shit on the Pharisees. They were the direct predecessors of modern rabbinic Judaism and it’s pure antisemitism to attribute to them all the things Christians fear might be true about themselves.

        1. ferrina*

          Sorry, no offense intended toward modern rabbis or Judaism! I phrased that badly- in the Christian New Testament there are several stories of Jesus clashing with the religious leaders (including some table throwing by Jesus, which shouldn’t be emulated). This is one of the accusations/insults Jesus made (according to the New Testament) against the religious leaders of his time.

          I meant to reference that particular story from the New Testament to point out the contradiction between the (Christian) religious teachings and actions, but in doing so I made a blanket statement about Pharisees. I apologize for that.

    3. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

      Bah, I thought I was replying below, but it turned out I didn’t nest it.

      I feel like the question is not, “Would it bother the average non-traumatized person?” but, “What percentage of people would see that your company tolerates this and assume that they might tolerate some of the negative things associated with Christian Nationalism?” And that percentage can be pretty darned significant. I’d ask a supervisor or HR person how they think this reflects on the company.

    4. DrSalty*

      It would make me roll my eyes pretty hard. It’s definitely inappropriate for work, regardless of how it makes someone feel. I think you have good standing to say something.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I also work for a large (national, not multinational) corporation in the Southeast. I would think this looked very unprofessional, and definitely violates our official signature guidelines, but I personally would not feel that it was my place to say something directly to her. I would think it was her manager’s place.

      But if it bothered me, I would mention it to someone in my DEI network group, and ask them the right way to raise it. We have a “see something, say something” reporting form, but I feel like that is more for direct harassment, bullying, retaliation, fraud, theft, insider trading, etc. The DEI contact might wind up suggesting that I make a formal report, but within my organization’s culture I think a personal contact would be the right first step before ringing the giant klaxon.

    6. spcepickle*

      It would bother me, but I would not say anything. Having worked in professional settings in the US south there are just a different set of culture norms down there (I am much happier in the PNW!). If I was the person’s supervisor or HR I would say something. But as a coworker I would eyeroll and leave it be.
      But you are not alone in being uncomfortable, I do not have religious trauma in my background – One of the people I interact with but who works in a different group started wearing an Israeli flag pin on his lapel recently. It makes me distrust his judgement and I have found myself feel really uncomfortable around him.

    7. Retired Accountant*

      It would be eye-roll-y for me. I wouldn’t say anything; I just don’t get that interested in e-mail signatures.

    8. Strive to Excel*

      You are not being sensitive. It’s unprofessional and out of place – and I say that as a non-traumatized Christian. Unfortunately, it’s also likely that if you don’t have any management authority over her or a good trust system in place with your manager you run the risk of burning a lot of political capital.

      That said, I’m assuming the quotes are pretty innocuous – “Love your brother, blessed are the peacemakers” etc. If what you’re seeing is more fire and brimstone, the lord shall smite the sinner, etc, then you’ve got a lot more room to go to your manager and say “I’m uncomfortable with Jane’s signature, would it be possible for you to talk to her about it” or something similar.

    9. Zephy*

      I think especially if there is a culture of including pronouns in email signatures and your coworker has chosen to instead put *that* in that space, this is a very pointed and inappropriate expression of her personal beliefs.

      You should start using those for her pronouns. Sorry, you should start using those words for *of* pronouns. Follower might take a little while to understand, but the choice is Jesus – if follower is going to play stupid games, follower is going to win stupid prizes.

      1. Eleanor*

        I think this is a good point–I missed it on my first read through but it does seem likely that she is putting “follower of Jesus” as a direct replacement for pronouns in a hostile manner. (Then again, I’m traumatized in probably a similar manner, so perhaps I am also reading this too harshly). I’m not sure how much you can speak up on this without burning a lot of political capital as others have said–it probably depends on how fundamentalist her supervisor is, honestly. That being said–it is absolutely cringeworthy and probably bigoted, and a LOT of people are going to read it that way.

  90. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

    I feel like the question is not, “Would it bother the average non-traumatized person?” but, “What percentage of people would see that your company tolerates this and assume that they might tolerate some of the negative things associated with Christian Nationalism?” And that percentage can be pretty darned significant. I’d ask a supervisor or HR person how they think this reflects on the company.

  91. Anne of the Island*

    My boss and coworker whisper to each other every day. Normally I can tune it out because I know they talk about things they don’t want some others to hear but when I’m the only one in the office, it gets a little disheartening and I can’t excuse it in my head. I do my work, I keep my head down but it still bothers me and makes me self-conscious, not to mention very excluded. Is there anything I can say? Note the boss does have a door on her office but they rarely use it. When I need to talk to my boss about something sensitive I close her door and no one blinks. I don’t know why they don’t do that.

  92. Sneezy*

    How do you get better at talking about yourself and your abilities and accomplishments? I’m really bad at it and it’s holding me back in my career. I am addressing some elements of it with a therapist (I feel arrogant and like an exaggerator when I speak well of myself thanks to an abusive family and a bad workplace history) but I’d like some advice geared to professionals as well. I can’t be the only person who’s dealt with this!

    I know I have an unusual and extensive skill set and have accomplished a lot, but when I’m asked to talk about it I say very little, downplay myself, or ramble messily. Even when I write myself scripts and practice for days! And then I berate myself internally for my poor verbal communication which just makes me more anxious.

    1. Czech Mate*

      I think the key here is not to think of it as descriptive, rather than good or bad. You probably have a hard time saying, “I’m good at x” or “I excel in this environment.” What if instead, you focused on more concrete things so it feels less hyberbolic/uncomfortable? i.e. “I closed $2 million in business last year; annual revenue the year before was $1 million” or “On my annual evaluations, I have always received top scores for my ability to work with other departments” or something. Then you’re not really bragging or saying something that *feels* false–you’re accurately describing things that can be verified!

    2. RagingADHD*

      Would it work to frame it as being helpful to others?

      Hiring managers and those assigning challenging work projects or filling internal roles have a problem: they need someone who has the skills and experience to do the job well. By letting them know accurately what you can do and have done, you are helping to solve their problem.

      You aren’t saying, “Look at me, I’m so great.” You’re saying, “Yep, I can get that done.”

      Another way of thinking about it might be to just think of the skills and experience / accomplishments as cool stuff you can geek about. Like when my robotics – loving kid gets all excited talking about a project, she describes how it works and the process of making it. It isn’t about listing off her skills. But when she describes the tools or software that went into it, clearly she had to know how to do all that stuff. So maybe you could put more focus on the why and how of the accomplishment itself, without having to talk about yourself, per se?

  93. Morning Gloria*

    I’ve been helping my college student child look for internships in her field. I see a lot of internships that require previous internship experience, a list of required skills that one could only gain in the workplace, and pay minimum wage. Is this normal for other fields? It seems like these companies are just looking for cheap labor and not offering a learning experience at all. (I realize it can still be valuable on a resume, I’m just curious if other fields are like this.)

    1. Bruce*

      Not normal as far as I’m concerned. An intern job should not be seen as cheap labor. My employer has a whole summer program for interns, if there was an intern event happening I told my intern that was the first priority. It is supposed to be a learning experience. I was lucky enough that one summer job I had I was able to step up and do something right when they needed it, but that was not in my employer’s plans, more of a lucky diving catch :-)

    2. Alex*

      It’s wrong, but unfortunately very common. I’ve heard that things are like this in sales/marketing/business/finance type fields, as well as publishing. I suspect other fields are like this too.

    3. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Depends on the field. Her university should be helping with placement for an internship. Most internships are not in job listings, they are arranged through the university. And as a mom of college students, I have to wonder WHY are you doing this? She’s old enough to do it on her own, and you would do well to step back and let her step up and be an adult.

      1. Seashell*

        Sometimes adult children have personal challenges and require help in some areas, so I’m not sure why you need to scold someone whose situation you don’t really know.

        Also, not every college is going to operate in the exact same way. You’re probably going to get a different level of assistance in finding internships at Yale than Fergus County Community College.

      2. Morning Gloria*

        That’s quite an assumption! Receiving help with a job/internship search doesn’t make someone less of an adult. Also, not every college student is in the same situation. Some of them have kids, full-time jobs, chronic illnesses, etc. that require a lot of time. If I’m willing to help co-workers and strangers with job searches (and I am), why wouldn’t I help family members?

      3. Irish Teacher.*

        It sounds like she is just asking for a gut check from a community she is a member of and her daughter is not. I don’t see it as any different from asking on behalf of a spouse or friend she was helping with a jobsearch and I don’t think those would raise any eyebrows.

        Plus, her daughter is likely inexperienced and might not have thought to ask if this was normal, since she might not be familiar with norms yet.

        It doesn’t sound like Morning Gloria is doing the jobsearch for her; more like the daughter came to her and mentioned the number of internships looking for previous experience and if she should still apply. And Morning Gloria said, “that sounds a bit dodgy to me. I’m not sure they should be doing that. Let me check out if it’s normal before you apply to these companies because you don’t want to end up in an internship that has little or no benefit to you.” That seems reasonable to me.

      4. Put the Human Back in HR*

        Ginger Cat Lady, I didn’t interpret your comment as a scolding. I worked in higher education HR for decades before I retired a few months ago. You would not believe the number of calls and in-person visits I got from parents of student workers (all of them over 18 and sometimes well into their twenties). The parents wanted to talk about their adult child’s pay, hours, how mean their supervisor was to insist they get to work on time, make them put their phones away and work, etc. The parents went ballistic when I told them that I couldn’t discuss an adult’s employment information. I think it’s good practice for adulthood for a college student to at least try to get their own internship through the school. At least where I worked, the disability resource office was great in helping students get access to programs and services like internships. I interpreted your comment as well-intentioned.

      5. Rainy*

        That’s not actually true if you are in the US. In general universities help with application materials and etiquette and provide opportunities to connect with employers and alums. Placement is actually a violation of the principles for professional conduct laid out by NACE. Internships are advertised on job boards all the time (search LinkedIn or Indeed if you doubt me), and universities encourage employers recruiting for internships to use their posting platform (mostly Handshake these days) to post internships.

    4. Rainy*

      Unfortunately that’s pretty common. There are fields that pay decently for internships, though! Those are the internships where the interns are doing work that will provide resume lines rather than removing staples from paper meant for the shredding bin or whatever, though. Internships are–or should be–work-learn positions, but to do that higher level work you do usually need to have some prior experience and skills. Ideally the student is gaining those through coursework.

      What the norms are depends a lot on what your student’s field is and where you are. Without that info I couldn’t say more.

  94. Rock*

    Need some support with figuring out how to ask my manager (again) to write things down/cc me on emails/tell me when he does things because even though I wear the organizational pants in our job most of the time, I’m not omniscient and talking to me like I know what he’s talking about doesn’t mean I know what he’s talking about, it just makes me feel stupid.

    1. Another academic librarian*

      My associate has noticed this about me. She just keeps repeating “Back up. I am not a mind reader.”
      Works for us.

  95. happy new year!*

    I’m afraid I’ve been That Coworker for a little while, and I don’t think it’s going to stop for another while. Help!

    I try not to overshare, but when something happens that affects me working in the middle of the day, I worry I’m disconnected too long. I do work remotely full time, but three times in the past month some combo of my power/internet have gone down at the absolute worst times and I’ve had to pack my stuff up and move, and I don’t have a car so it takes me the better part of an hour rather than fifteen minutes of downtime to get to the nearest cafe. My grandmother passed a month ago as well, so I took time off to be with my family for her memorial service. Next week I have a series of intensive health evaluations that I hope will lead to a better quality of life in the end, but may require new meds and all the weird adjustments that entails. And then it’s holiday season, and I skimped on vacation this summer, so I have a lot of time to use up before the end of the year.

    I don’t want to be the coworker who has constant personal drama that impairs my productivity. I really want to be resilient, especially since I’m leading an effort right now that’s going to be pretty important next year. But all this and some other things going on in the background radiation are difficult for me to roll with beyond the immediate moment when I’m dealing with a crisis, so it’s always a crapshoot whether I’ll be able to recharge in the time designated for that.

    Should I talk to my boss? Suck it up? Find a job with less responsibility? I’ve been considering accounting, maybe it can be long hours but at least it seems like it has structure…

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      You’ve had a lot to cope with and now intensive health evaluations to cope with too.
      We all have times at work when when we are not at our best, so don’t feel guilty. In particular, any human should understand you needed time for your granma.

      When you have internet interruptions or otherwise need to be absent, then so long as you inform people succinctly and with an estimate of your return time, you surely won’t seem a drama llama.

      I’d definitely NOT try to move into a new job, especially with longer hours. In fact I’d avoid major work or life changes as much as possible, because you don’t want the extra effort or stress. So try to stick with the job and coworkers you know, rather than add the upheaval & stress of a change there.

      If you feel the need to talk to your boss, you could let her know you’ve been having a tough time and will be having a lot of medical tests and new meds which will take a while but should then improve your health.

      It sounds like you need a breather, so – important! – do take some of that vacation you have to use up.
      Don’t feel tied down by leading that important project – even surgeons who save lives every day have to take vacations to stay fit for their job. You must too. You will likely come back refreshed and better able to perform at work.

      Best wishes :)

  96. RVA Cat*

    “You may also like” has a link to “My new hire is too attractive for me to manage her.” Was there ever an update on this?

    I’m picturing myself as a hetero woman having to manage, say, Matt Bomer, but I’m married and he’s gay. I don’t get how LW couldn’t mentally frame a similar level of Not Gonna Happen besides the obvious ethics of the power differential. But then, patriarchy does warp the mind…

  97. Sparrow*

    Anyone have advice for not getting discouraged during a very lengthy job search? I’ve been trying to find a job for about 2 years now. In all that time, I’ve gotten interviews for exactly two positions: in the first, I withdrew from the process because I realize they had significantly misrepresented the benefits & work schedule in the job listing; in the second, I got to the final round before being beat out by someone who had more experience in one key area. I’ve poured over Ask a Manager’s resume & cover letter advice and followed it as best I could (focus on accomplishments, one page, tailored cover letter, etc), I’ve read the AAM job searching e-book cover-to-cover more than once, I’ve gotten my resume looked over by friends who work in hiring in the fields I’m looking for work in, and I’m still not getting anywhere. I’m starting to seriously worry that the problem is me—that I’m just not an appealing candidate no matter how you slice it, and no one will want to hire me. I know that’s defeatist, I know it’s likely not true, but it’s hard to fight past the feeling. If anyone has any words of wisdom they’d like to share on how to keep up job searching motivation when everything feels hopeless, I’d very much appreciate that.

    1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

      Your anxiety is a liar. (So’s mine.)

      This is a particularly tough job market right now and it’s not helped by the number of “ghost job” ads out there. Is there some way to shake up your search? If you’re relying more on job ads than on networking, can you try switching to networking for a bit? Or if you’re looking mostly on one job site, might you try a different one? Maybe apply for positions in an adjacent field or for something that is at a different point in the hierarchy than you’ve been looking in? (Might be worth investing some time to work your way up somewhere.)

      1. Sparrow*

        Thank you <3

        RE: your questions: I'm honestly not really sure how to network with my job history—I'm still in the only full-time job I've ever had (going on 6 years with this company). Conferences in this industry are too expensive for me to afford on my own and I'm not high-ranking enough for my company to send me, and very few of my coworkers have quit since I started, so pretty much all of the professional connections I have are people who are currently employed by either my company or companies that work extremely closely with mine, and in both cases, I'm not really comfortable alerting those people to the fact that I'm job searching. I did apply to one open role at a partner organization of ours, but I got rejected without an interview (there's no non-competes in play and I know they have a positive view of my company). I have reached out to contacts I have from previous freelance gigs, but my freelancing experience is in an extremely competitive and niche industry, and there are very few open roles for them to direct me to.

        I regularly look at several different job boards + actively monitor the websites of companies I'm interested in for new job postings. I work in a type of role that is found in many different industries and has skills that are transferrable to a lot of different role types (think project manager or HR), and I've made it a point to apply to any job I find where I'm a good match for the qualifications they're looking for, regardless of industry, job title, or seniority. I try to emphasize specific skills/accomplishments in my resume & cover letter, and I have a profile section giving a quick overview of my biggest accomplishments, but I imagine it's not helping my search that 1) my current company is very weird about hierarchy in job titles, and the job titles I've been given here don't accurately reflect the responsibilities I've held, and 2) this company is also in an extremely niche industry, and while my role is more generalized and applicable to a variety of fields, it can be a struggle to get people outside of this industry to understand that my skills are still applicable in other industries.

        I really appreciate your comment and I hope I don't come across like I'm just being a naysayer shooting down all of your advice! I really do appreciate the sympathy/support here. <3

        1. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

          Hi! Same boat re: job hunt. Market, as we know it, is terrible, and the election is making it worse.

          Few things I’ve learned recently/been told:

          1) a tool called JobScan. Yes, it’s AI-esque, but I use it to get me started on QUICKLY being able to streamline my resume/cover letter tailoring process. You paste in your resume and a job description and it analyzes where there might be holes. You can then have it generate a cover letter, which I don’t use the generation of it, I do use some of the starter sentences to get ME going on a cover letter. It has a free trial (2 free scans) to see if one finds it useful, and then you pay, but can cancel.

          2) Check Meetup for local networking groups, I know there are some in my area for tech networking, for example. I just…go to everything I can find, because while I may not find an opportunity directly at these events, I am finding that people at them may know people in their circle who can be introduced to me, may be hiring, etc. And people that I meet at these events offer to help me (i.e. even connecting on linkedin, and combing thru their connections helps, and then I can send a message asking to be introduced to a connection, that sort of thing).

          3) Check these folks out on LinkedIn
          JT O’Donnell (Work It Daily) – she has 2.6 million followers on LinkedIn. She was a recruiter, started her own company, and has many videos sharing her knowledge.

          Pat Romboletti (Bulletproof Your Career) – She has a weekly call on Thursday nights (free), or at least she did, I haven’t checked in a while.

          Solidarity in the job search, it’s sometimes hard not to get in a funk. I’m finding lately that I am open to consulting/contracting for 6 months vs focusing on full time employment (see: election making it market worse), and then by sometime in spring, recruiters are saying they’re very hopeful things will be better and full time roles start to open up.

          1. Treeline*

            @Surrogate Tongue Pop: I’m not the OP, but thanks for your detailed answer! This is the type of specific, practical advice that keeps me reading the threads.

  98. Banana Pyjamas*

    I’m debating whether I should send a professor feedback, and how I should approach it if I do.

    This is a fully online class of previously recorded videos. In the beginning of the video the professor mentions that students often say this is the hardest unit, and they’re not sure they agree.

    The concepts are not actually hard, but the professor makes multiple mathematical mistakes and doesn’t correct them, and at least for me this makes it difficult to follow.

    For example in one problem they did:
    5000 / 500 = 50
    Then they continued to use 50 until a later slide when they started using 10 without saying anything about the change.

    Or another example is telling us to graph on the horizontal axis. I assumed they meant vertical based on previous instructions to always put the higher producing product on the y axis. The professor worked through the problem they graphed on the vertical axis, but when they show the answer slide it’s on the horizontal axis.

    In a work context I would just send a compare and contrast email and ask for confirmation. So for example :

    Good morning Professor!

    I hope this finds you well; I have a quick question. The supporting document states x, but the form states y. Can you take a second look and confirm which is correct?

    Thanks for your time,

    Banana Pyjamas

    The problem I’m having is I can’t figure out how to do that in this context because I can’t get around the fact the professor was objectively wrong. I can’t see a way to depersonalize it though, which has me leaning toward not saying anything at all. I do believe it’s the quality of instruction that challenges people though, and the only way to address that is with the instructor.

    The other thing I think might be a challenge, though it wasn’t an issue for me, was the way the instructor jumps back and forth between examples. We did problem a step 1, problem b step 1, problem a step 2, problem b step 2 and so forth.

    I guess I’m debating whether I say anything or keep it to myself.

    1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

      I’d say send it. The prof might well know about the issues and may have trouble getting course updated and edited. Student feedback, especially if they can collect it from multiple students, will probably help.

    2. chocolate muffins*

      Professor here! Your e-mail sounds generally fine to me. I might add some niceness to the last sentence (“could you please…” or “I was wondering if you might be willing to…”) but I don’t know if it’s necessary – the current wording sounds a bit harsh to me but I’m not sure everyone would read it that way. I’ve also sometimes framed things as being about my own confusion (“I noticed that source A said X thing and source B said Y thing, and I’m a bit confused about how both of these can be true at the same time/which of these processes I should follow/etc”), which has been helpful for me personally but isn’t necessary if you don’t want to do it that way.

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        I can’t wrap my mind around how to adapt it, particularly for the computation errors. I know if I stick to the facts it will come across as harsh (that used to be my m. o.). I definitely think the confusion could be good in addressing how to determine which axis to use. I think I need to figure out how to frame the errors that way as well.

        I really appreciate your feedback. I don’t really think the last sentence works in this context anyway, but I’ll work on softening.

        FWIW the last line used to be, “Can you please correct the form to reflect the supporting documentation?” It went over poorly. The person I was dealing with was notoriously unsuited to their work, but I eventually developed a good relationship with them.

  99. Brunching with Penguins*

    Any recommendations for Seattle – I’ve read all the top ten lists, so looking for off-beat curiosities, hidden gem breweries, or interesting food (no dietary restrictions). TIA!

    1. happy new year!*

      I’m not sure if it’s on any top ten lists, but when I visited previously, on a whim I was hungry and stepped into a dim sum place called Dough Zone and the dumplings and scallion pancake I got were absolutely delicious! One hundred percent recommend.

  100. Jenesis*

    To the people who responded to my “need help finding a job” post some weeks ago: I have a (somewhat) hopeful update!

    I’ve joined the local Friends of the Library group. The good news is that I seem to have made a good impression on everyone, I’m in a role that I feel comfortable in, I contributed to the discussion at the meeting I attended, and I have confidence that I’ll be able to spin this role into something that makes me sound like a good job candidate on a resume.

    Now, onto the less hopeful. I am, conservatively eyeballing it, the youngest member of the group by at least a decade, the group is struggling to attract membership (people leaving due to age or other responsibilities, and in fact two members sadly passed away in the past two years – a fact that I learned from a memorial notices posted by the front door) and I have anxiety that I might end up drafted into the role of the Young Person Whisperer when I really don’t want to do that nor do I have any particular insight or skills that would be relevant. The most obvious barrier to entry is that the meetings are held on a weekday in the early afternoon, a point that was raised, discussed, and ultimately the decision was not to change the meeting time, because it would make it difficult for the existing members to attend. So I really don’t know what (if anything) to do about this.

      1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

        I feel for you.
        I was president of a small service organization in my city during Covid and instigated our outside-of-business-hours virtual (zoom) meetings. One member attended using a phone w/o video as she didn’t have a computer or smart phone.
        President last year returned to monthly lunch meetings. I have since retired, but it’s nearly impossible to get new members who are not yet retired. Making the meetings on zoom is challenging because we sometimes have members not following Roberts’ Rules for Meetings. And it’s inconvenient for working members to take an hour-and-a-half lunch in their car to attend a zoom meeting.
        On the other side, we have some members who couldn’t drive at night and that prohibited dinner-hour in person meetings.
        We get to the point where “you can’t please all the people all the time” so adding new members is secondary to keeping current, active members.
        (As an aside, we have found that restaurants with meeting rooms to accommodate 25-ish attendees are challenging to find and that the meals tend to cost considerably more than pre-Covid. I don’t know if this is just cost-of-living increases or due to Covid.)

  101. Not your typical admin*

    Those of you in construction or a similar field; what were valuable certifications or skills you learned. My 18 year old is eventually wanting to have his on home improvement business and possibly get into building houses in the distant future. Right now he’s in college working on getting his bachelors in business administration. This semester his classes are online, but starting in the spring he’ll probably commute 2 or 3 days a week (his university is about an hour away). This week he also started apprenticing under a general contractor a couple of days a week. Pay is minimal, but he’s also getting training and allowed to work his schedule around school demands. Right now he’s leaning towards specializing in doing electrical work, but wants to kind of learn a little bit about everything. Any advice for him as he starts this journey would be welcome!

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      He’s doing exactly what he should be doing. And asking questions while at work — absorbing knowledge from all of the trades is going going to be gold because that’s when he’ll really start locking in his full direction.
      And getting into a formal registered apprenticeship will include plenty of classroom learning, and may help with connecting with unions and other great resources for relevant certifications.

  102. Jaya*

    So. This has been a frustrating week. I’ve done two interviews, one job fair, and one phone call with a recruiter. Nothing solid.

    The in-person interview took up a portion of my Monday. It was scheduled at 1 PM; my interviewer who owns the business put the wrong time and it took her about an hour and a half for us to get ready. She said that she liked my qualifications and saw me as a top candidate. Though she said she’d call Wednesday, I haven’t heard anything and this is normal with her. But she is the only one who has come close to making an offer. Still waiting on the other in-person firm and not following up is hard.

    A Wednesday job fair has led to some leads on open positions, but no guarantees. Just the hope that you make a good impression. Next month if I’m still unemployed I’m going at nine sharp.

    1. Jaya*

      Mainly I don’t know if I’m doing anything wrong, or if I should pivot and adjust. I would like something in hand.

  103. Compliance is fun*

    Can you send them the snips without the tariff code, and without telling them it’s for the tariff? Just say “for compliance reasons we need a general description of the product, please select which option best fits your item.”

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