open thread – September 27, 2024

by Alison Green on September 27, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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{ 561 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Arden Windermere*

    Looking for advice on how to disclose my pregnancy to my department at work. I gave birth to my first child in December last year after years of losses and infertility treatments. Through what feels like a miracle, I got pregnant a few months ago without any medical intervention and the pregnancy is healthy and moving along – my husband and I didn’t know this could happen for us! We’re really excited about our second child but I’m not sure how to tell people at work that after being out for 5 months of this year, I’ll be out again for a while in spring. I think I’m also really sensitive about this because when I went to the doctor’s office to get a pregnancy test to confirm, the nurse looked at my baby who was with me and was really judgy about the fact that I was already pregnant again.

    I was so scared about my last pregnancy not working out I never really got to enjoy the idea that a baby was coming. I want to be able to share my joy this time. For context, my work’s culture is very much that we are welcome and invited to share life events like this. I think they thought it was weird last year when I didn’t tell anyone (other than HR and my boss) but I’m afraid if I tell them now they’re going to be judgy like the mean nurse. Any suggestions on how to phrase this that doesn’t involve me yelling “I’m not young and stupid, I’m old and infertile so this is amazing!” would be appreciated.

    Reply ↓
    1. londonedit*

      I’d lean into your excitement, and say something like ‘I’m really excited to tell you that I’m pregnant again – it was a bit of a surprise, but we’re thrilled!’ People will follow your lead. If they’re judgy to your face, they’re not people whose opinions matter.

      Reply ↓
      1. sagewhiz*

        This is what my son & d-i-l did…years of IVF, then less than a year later they were pregnant again, and shared it as “a joyful surprise.”

        And I would most definitely say something to your ob/gyn about the judgy nurse! Her attitude was unprofessional and totally uncalled for.

        Reply ↓
        1. Chauncy Gardener*

          For SURE say something about the judgy nurse! That behavior is beyond the pale, ESPECIALLY for an ob office!
          Sheesh

          Reply ↓
        2. Clisby*

          Absolutely. And what is there to be judgy about, anyway? I’m 14 months older than my sister; two of my younger brothers were 13 months apart. There’s nothing weird about this. I mean, I know to you, it seems miraculous, but as far as human biology goes, I can’t see why a nurse, of all people, would be disapproving.

          Reply ↓
    2. Tio*

      Tell them with excitement! They’ll be happy for you!

      Also, screw that nurse. The exact same thing happened to my best friend – they weren’t careful because it took years for them to get pregnant the first time – and I get the feeling this is not uncommon. They were thrilled and so were their health care team and their jobs.

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      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        yeah that nurse can stuff it! She works in OB she must have seen this before. Its not that unusual for people to have kids close together. sometimes it happens. I also wonder if it has something to do with class/race.

        Reply ↓
        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          Sometimes it happens – and sometimes it’s intentional! I certainly have friends who wanted their kids to be close in age.

          Whatever the reason (and your wonderings make sense), this nurse sucks. Please don’t let her bring you down, OP! Be excited!

          Reply ↓
      2. Funko Pops Day*

        Yep, I have a friend who is an MD married to an MD who got pregnant while still out on maternity leave from her 1st (who was conceived after years of fertility issues). This happens to so many people!

        Reply ↓
      3. Artemesia*

        Sometimes a successful pregnancy resets things. It took us two years to conceive our son and we actually had fertility drugs in hand if we had not got him when we did. It took one evening to conceive our daughter when we decided to try again.

        Reply ↓
        1. HBJ*

          This is what I was going to say. Certainly, for many people, this is not the case. But there are plenty of women for whom that first pregnancy does something to their hormones and changes things in all sorts of ways. I’ve heard of many persistent hormonal issues being resolved after a pregnancy.

          Reply ↓
    3. WellRed*

      Is it really that uncommon for pregnancy in quick succession? In the stone ages, I was one of many who was barely a year apart from sibling in age. Congratulations.

      Reply ↓
      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        These days it definitely is. I know a lot of people who purposely plan four or more years in between their kids so that they’re only paying for daycare for one child at a time because it’s so prohibitively expensive. Two to three years in between seems most common, based admittedly on my own anecdata of the people I know.

        Reply ↓
        1. bamcheeks*

          Two to three years is recommended in many places as the least likely to cause injury to the pregnant person! Having pregnancies closer together than 2 years puts a lot more stress on your body, because some things won’t have quite healed from the last go-around.

          But that is obviously not a reason to be anything other than delighted when someone shares news of a happy pregnancy with a smaller gap!

          Reply ↓
      2. JFC*

        I’ve seen different families approach it differently. Some want to only have one child in daycare at a time because of the expense, so they’ll wait three or four years in between children. Others know how many kids they want and prefer them to be closer in age so they can bond. It can also be easier on some parents to do rounds of everything once (like potty training, school milestones, etc.), so they have kids in quick succession. It’s just a matter of personal preference and biology. Of course, there are always surprises! I know several families with two or three teenagers and then they had a surprise baby who is now just starting elementary school.

        Reply ↓
        1. Zephy*

          My stepbrother was in the Navy, so he and his wife decided to have all the kids they were going to as quickly as possible while she had access to his good health insurance through the military. The result is two daughters born 367 days apart.

          Reply ↓
      3. Another Kristin*

        I wouldn’t call it COMMON, because the first year of your baby’s life is not usually a time when you have much time for or interest in sex, but it certainly happens. I met a woman once who had twins when her first was only 11 months old! Can you imagine?

        Reply ↓
    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I know someone who has kids born similarly close together and unfortunately I don’t think there’s a way to stop the judgy comments (which you’d get even if they were two, three, four years apart, let’s be real) because they are going to come regardless. All you can do is talk about how excited you are for the pregnancy and hope that people take a hint.

      That said, if you live somewhere with pregnancy/post-pregnancy benefits that require you to work a certain amount of time in between pregnancies before claiming them, I’d look into what those are and hold off on letting anyone know if there’s a chance those could be jeopardized by announcing earlier rather than later.

      Reply ↓
    5. Reindeer Hut Hostess*

      Do your colleagues know you struggled so much prior to the first successful pregnancy? If so, I don’t see how they could be anything other than super-excited for you! I love the “joyful surprise” approach already mentioned.

      Side note: I’m 14 months younger than my sister, and we have always been close. I wish the same for your two little ones.

      Reply ↓
    6. Anon Like Whoa*

      Unfortunately, you can’t control other peoples’ responses to this, especially if they are expected to pick up work or cover for you. A coworker recently went through a rough pregnancy and then an extended maternity leave and it was really hard on the people who spent the pregnancy covering for her and then for her maternity leave. If she were to get pregnant again in quick succession, I wouldn’t be thrilled, knowing how much work I’d have to absorb going forward, especially since I picked up a bunch of work that will just have to keep, even after she returned- apparently, she was unprepared for how much extra work a second child is in addition to the first.

      So, while I would be happy for her personally if she had another baby, as I know she’d like a big family, I wouldn’t be thrilled over all.

      Reply ↓
      1. Carol the happy*

        Congratulations!
        Unless you’re in a medical field, I’d use the words, “Residual Fertility Treatment hormones in my body. Isn’t it amazing?”

        If anyone says, “What? You’re pregnant again?” get a little gushy/ teary, and respond with, “Oh, yes! Isn’t it wonderful? We had such a hard time having the first one, and I really didn’t dream there could be another baby, especially so soon!
        THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONCERN about it being safe for me, but my Doctor is keeping a close eye on my condition. He/She congratulated me on how well I’m doing and how lucky we are!”
        You can also be delighted that being so close in age, your children will be close.
        Then express wistfully that these babies may be the only children you can have.
        If you completely ignore the judginess of idiots, (acting as if they’re delighted for you, but they’re worried that this will be hard or dangerous for you) they will be undercut by your happiness, but you’re so thrilled, that you ascribe gracious concern to their bad manners.

        I would also invent a “crisis” at some point, where you have to take a week of medical treatment and bedrest. This is the time to twist the knife in the judgiest people’s hearts. Do this while you’re propping your feet, and binge- watching favorite TV. “We had a scare. It was so terrifying, but the doctors say it’s going to be fine. MeanJoanne and TerribleTrudy were so concerned about me, and for the baby’s health – would you thank them for their good wishes and concern, and tell them I’m going to be fine?”

        As Grandma always said, “You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar- but if you really want flies, use shit!!”

        Reply ↓
          1. Ellis Bell*

            You wouldn’t take this approach with everyone but I can honestly see this working with the very very judgy people described who are oh so “concerned”. The only thing to be done is to out-talk and out-tone them.

            Reply ↓
        2. Seashell*

          Telling people in person will put them on the spot, so better to do it via email/text/Slack if possible in case they have personal reasons not to be thrilled, such as their fertility treatment not working out so well. It also gives the person the option to wait a couple of minutes and not say the first thing that pops into their head, like “Better you than me!”

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      2. Hazel*

        This is yet another argument for real mat leaves – if it’s say a year, you hire someone to cover. It’s often an opportunity for another star person to grow. Please resist the resentment thing – I get it, but you wouldn’t resent a sick person, and it leans towards mysogyny.

        Reply ↓
    7. WantonSeedStitch*

      “I wanted to let you know that much to my surprise (and delight), I’m expecting another baby this spring!” Anyone who’s judgmental about your delightful surprise is just a cantankerous jerk. If they have Opinions, hopefully they will be grown-up enough to keep them to themselves and be kind to you.

      Reply ↓
    8. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      Some people might be weird about it, but you shouldn’t let that stop you from sharing and expressing your own joy. Other people’s feelings about your life and choices are really none of your concern, so share your news the way you want to, and be intentional about not internalizing their reactions. Congratulations on your happy news, and best wishes to your family.

      Reply ↓
    9. I wear my sunglasses at night*

      I don’t really have any advice but congratulations!!! I hope the mean, judging ones can at least keep it to themselves!

      Reply ↓
    10. Lifelong student*

      Tell everyone you are happy that help you got for the first pregnancy created the ability for you to have Irish Twins. For those who might not know- that means siblings born within a twelve month time span! Maybe less common these days but has been a cause for extra celebration in the not far distance past.

      Reply ↓
        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          Yeah, I’ve only ever heard this term used in a derogatory way (and in this case, OP’s kids aren’t going to be born within a twelve month period anyway, so it’s inaccurate to boot).

          Reply ↓
    11. I wear my sunglasses at night*

      I should add, people are going to have Opinions either way: the number of kids, how close or far apart your kids are, the genders, if you did IVF or didn’t, what kind of IVF, why not try X instead, that you’re having kids at all, are you going to learn the gender before the baby is born, if you have 2 boys will you “keep trying for a girl ” (or vice versa), how long will you work during and after the pregnancy, wait you’re working at all while pregnant, daycare or in-laws or nanny, etc etc.

      The best thing to do is remember that it’s not about you, it’s about them and whatever is going on in their brain that makes them not keep their mouth shut. That’s obviously easier said than done, especially when pregnancy hormones really kick in. But it’s okay to just give them a “get bent” smile and go about your business.

      Reply ↓
    12. Seashell*

      Unless the nurse said something specific, maybe she was thinking “I could never survive 2 babies so close together! Poor lady!”

      I’d go with telling your co-workers by email. Responses are more likely to be pleasant if they have time to think about them.

      Reply ↓
    13. Falling Diphthong*

      If your office tilts older, you may find that “So we thought we couldn’t get pregnant without intervention, and that’s why this second kid is spaced so close” elicits “Been there” or “My friend had that too.”

      Reply ↓
    14. Ellis Bell*

      If you don’t want to share your fertility journey, just throw all the positive words you have at it : “I am really excited to share the news that our second child is due in X month. Obviously we are completely thrilled at this addition to our family”. I wouldn’t even mention the closeness to your other pregnancy; only complete weirdos are going to be noticing, much less judging, the gap between your kids. Adults should really know by now that kids come when they happen to come, and not on a designated delivery day. If you do want to share your fertility journey, find someone in the office with good judgement and great relationships with everyone and say this: “I was so scared about my last pregnancy not working out I never really got to enjoy the idea that a baby was coming. I want to be able to share my joy with everyone this time”. Also, congratulations!!! Boooo to that nurse for raining on your very exciting parade.

      Reply ↓
    15. Goldenrod*

      “I think I’m also really sensitive about this because when I went to the doctor’s office to get a pregnancy test to confirm, the nurse looked at my baby who was with me and was really judgy about the fact that I was already pregnant again.”

      Um, WTF?? There’s nothing weird or wrong about that! That nurse has some issue that has nothing to do with you. I’m sure your co-workers will be happy for you!!

      (And this is coming from someone who doesn’t have and never wanted kids. But I’m happy for you too! Congrats!)

      Reply ↓
    16. June First*

      Isn’t it amazing how pregnancy brings out the biggest personalities and opinions?

      Congrats on your wonderful surprise, OP.

      Reply ↓
    17. Bess*

      Visible pregnancy is one of those wonderful times when people feel free to say and share whatever opinions and judgments they have of you, no matter what you are or aren’t doing. So I would base how you present it on how YOU want to share your news (particularly on whether or not your baby was planned, that’s such a private detail that shouldn’t be public domain). Congratulations on your lovely surprise!

      Reply ↓
    18. Arden Windermere*

      Thank you for all your wonderful and supportive comments <3 I really appreciate everyone's advice. I'm really excited and hoping to share that using the strategy of saying as many positive things about this as I can, hoping people take my lead, and then ignoring anyone with Opinions.

      Reply ↓
  2. Software tracking and name changes*

    Senior employees, how do you keep track of all the software products you have used over the years? An Excel sheet, a Word doc, something more advanced? It’s too much to list everything on every resume, and it doesn’t all apply.

    I was asked recently if I had experience using Azure DevOps, and it was a deal-breaker that I didn’t. (The job description didn’t mention it, so I was unprepared for the question.) But I did some research later and apparently it used to be called Visual Studio Team Services, which I HAVE used! I just didn’t know it had been bought out or had the name changed. I was so pissed.

    Further investigation showed that other programs I used in old jobs have also changed names. I use 20+ pieces of software at a company, multiplied by decades of experience. I can’t keep track of all this crap! And on resumes, do I list the name from when I used it, the new name, or both?

    I realize this is multiple questions, but I’m so frustrated because a name change is such a stupid reason to lose a chance at a role.

    Reply ↓
    1. Arden Windermere*

      Oof. I hadn’t even thought of this, so thank you for bringing it up! I only know of one software that I worked on that changed names, so I usually mention it in interviews as “Shopatron, now known as Kibo”. I think an Excel sheet would probably be a good idea, and then maybe set a calendar reminder once a quarter to do a quick check and see if the company has changed names.
      Super annoying you missed out on a job because of a name change!

      Reply ↓
    2. Clinical Informaticist & DB developer*

      There are some key differences between Azure DevOps and VSTS although there is also a lot of overlap. However, if this was rated as a dealbreaker, they probably wanted more recent experience.
      I think it is always helpful if faced in an interview with a platform I do not recognize to speak to the types of platforms I have worked with that are similar to what they are trying to do. In this case, you could have talked about your VSTS work and they might immediately recognize the connection. Does that make any sense?

      Reply ↓
      1. ampersand*

        Sort of related: I once listed Atlassian Suite on my resume for a position I ended up being interviewed for, and when I talked about using Jira in the interview, the interviewers were surprised I had experience with Jira because they didn’t connect it to Atlassian on my resume.

        That’s how I learned it’s important to be as specific as possible on my resume—so now I write out all the programs/software/portals I’ve used. I think doing that plus talking about specific software in interviews should cover most bases.

        Reply ↓
      2. Quinalla*

        This! I’ve talked about similar software that I’ve used when a question like this came up. Sometimes it is still a deal breaker as it likely would have been here, but I don’t keep a list anywhere as folks are usually interested in software you are currently using (or at least very recent) which are things I can remember. If you have just a ton of software where you might forget names, a list seems worthwhile to keep.

        Reply ↓
    3. Pay no attention...*

      If it’s been long enough since I used the software that I didn’t know it had changed names, or it was software that I only used a few times a year or less, I wouldn’t list it on my resume at all. I would only list software that I currently and frequently use. If a job is make-or-break on a particular software that I haven’t used in years, it’s not the job for me. For example, I have a passing knowledge of Excel because it’s not something I use except to view or extract information I need — I would never list Excel use on my resume.

      To keep track of software I use, I suppose I would keep that list on my master resume, that then gets tailored for the positions I would apply to.

      Reply ↓
      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Yes, this. Unless it was a recent name change, which the interviewers would probably be aware of, not knowing the name changed probably means the experience is outdated. That doesn’t mean it’s not valuable or worth talking about, just that it’s not necessarily as relevant as you’d want it to be.

        Reply ↓
    4. cactus lady*

      I actually don’t list anything I haven’t used in over 3 years, or that I hated using and never want to again. If it’s something that has had a name change, it’s likely had other operational changes that I wouldn’t have experience with. In the past I listed the software I used by role (I’m in a non-technical role).

      Reply ↓
      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        I think my only exception to the 3 year rule, which I think is a good one, is if you’re really good at learning new software or really good at picking things up where you left off several years earlier. There’s a software we use at work that I haven’t personally used in a decade, but I had to help a colleague who was a daily user (!) with something on it and I was surprised how much I remembered — enough to complete a complicated task that most regular users struggle with, but somehow I could still do it without issue.

        Reply ↓
    6. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Is Visual Studio Team Services on your resume, or is it something you leave off that you would have been happy to talk about had you known it was now called Azure DevOps?

      I think if you list it, it’s probably worth double checking the software’s name/existence as you polish the rest of your resume during your job hunting process. And if you do list it, you can update it to say “Visual Sutdio Team Services (now Azure Dev Ops)” or something that conveys it was something moderately different when you used it.

      Reply ↓
    7. Procedure Publisher*

      I have experience with. The content management system that I used had a HTML editor. That editor was replaced because it is no longer made and was based on Java. The company that made the editor had a name change. So I refer to the new editor more than the older one.

      The content management system used to be known by a different name when it was made by a different vendor. The system is also not going to be used any more because vendor was only supporting it for my former employer. Because of that knowledge, I refer to this system by its generic name (content management system). If I need to refer to the editor, I call it an HTML editor or a WYSIWYG editor.

      Reply ↓
    8. Hazel*

      Good question – but also stupid employers – if it is a dealbreaker it goes in the job call, then you have time to assess if you have it or something close. You don’t hit people like this in an interview, it’s bait and switch.

      Reply ↓
    9. fhqwhgads*

      I think you might be thinking about it a little wrong. It’s not just a matter of “have used over the years”. The stuff on your resume should really be products you’re very familiar and comfortable with. I get that you’re frustrated because it’s the same thing but changed names, but from a hiring perspective, if that software is that critical to the role, and you’ve not used it recently enough to know about the name change (or aren’t working on stuff that would keep you in a space where you’d know that product changed names), your experience with the software may be out of date enough that it’s still disqualifying. I’m not saying it definitely is. Some stuff gets bought and renamed and doesn’t change much at all. But I am saying, from the hiring end, it can be reasonable that “you didn’t even know it’s called X now” is as disqualifying as “never used it”. It depends on why they’re requiring the experience.
      Someone who uses it all the time, every day, right now, is probably going to seem like a stronger candidate than someone who used it however long ago under OldName. So you’re not really losing out because of a name change. You’re losing out because the experience is potentially too old to be relevant.

      Reply ↓
  3. Always the Bridesmaid*

    Fellow jobseekers (and hiring managers), how competitive is the job market right now, really? Some internet forums would have you believe that we’re in the second Great Depression, but they can be a bit dramatic and I trust this commentariat’s judgement more. 

    I have been applying to jobs at a slow to moderate pace for the last 6 months (I have a job so it’s not an urgent job search). So far, I’ve interviewed with 7 companies, making it to at least second round interviews with all of them, and have been in 4 final round interviews, but I haven’t received any offers. So I’m trying to gauge if I need to shake up my resume/interview style or if I’m just dealing with a particularly competitive market. 

    For what it’s worth, I work in marketing which is a competitive field in the best of times.  
      

    Reply ↓
    1. Glazed Donut*

      I’ve found it’s very competitive right now, especially for people who hold college degrees and are looking for work that compensates them for their degree(s) and experience.

      Reply ↓
    2. BoratVoiceMyWife*

      you’re the exception, not the rule. I’m also in marketing, I’m employed but have been applying for a solid year, and I’ve had maybe three final-round interviews in that span. no offers. I apply for multiple roles a day. the market is worse than I’ve seen it in 10 years.

      Reply ↓
    3. Tio*

      It’s fairly competitive, from what I hear from my friends. Two have been job searching for months at this point, and both are professionals with good work histories.

      Reply ↓
    4. Tradd*

      If you are open to being in office, that should open you up to more positions. I have friends in accounting and finance who are only considering fully remote positions. They are unemployed and having difficulty finding what they want. Of course, employers could always change something remote to in office.

      Reply ↓
    5. Nicosloanica*

      This always varies so much by field I don’t know that it’s that useful. Personally, I’m seeing a lot of good jobs (paying well, more than in previous job searches) in my field, but I think it’s quite competitive because I’m not getting as much followup as I have in the past. I think certain fields are quite compressed, like some sectors in tech.

      Reply ↓
    6. the BeaureBar*

      I’m 3 weeks into my hunt with 2 weeks left on my contract, so not too deep into the weeds yet, but from the creative field it seems really competitive. My specialty isn’t as big as it once was but it certainly hasn’t died off like the tech sector thinks, it just takes a while for positions to open up. But I might need to bite the bullet and learn UI/UX [which doesn’t have nearly the same personal fulfillment] or otherwise lean into a totally different direction.

      It doesn’t help that creative jobs are so badly written, it seems like everyone wants a single Sr Designer who can do motion, 3d, web, email marketing, brand guides, digital ads, and print collateral for events, and hash out client needs as a detail-oriented self-starter who is collaborative but comfortable working independently.

      Reply ↓
    7. Anon for this*

      Dang, you’re doing better than I am; I’m realizing I’ve been lied to by management for three years and nothing in my position is going to change, and have been sending applications sporadically for the past ~6months (have a job, it’s not great, but not urgent to find anything). I’ve only gotten desk rejections; no calls, no interviews, nada, just “we have decided to pursue other candidates”)

      Reply ↓
    8. HigherEdSurvivor*

      We just had a mid-level position (Assistant Director of Communications, team of 2) posted for 2 weeks and had over 150 candidates. That is nearly double what we had when we posted the same position in 2021. The quality of the candidates were also much more competitive where this would be a step back for quite a few that we screened.

      I work in HR for a School within a large University for context.

      Reply ↓
      1. DataGirl*

        My 20- year old has applied to more than 50 jobs in the last few months, 3 interviews, no offers. She’s only going for entry level stuff but it seems like “no one is hiring” is not inaccurate.

        Reply ↓
    9. Justin*

      I work in curriculum development for a nonprofit, but we pay well and have a well known good workplace that is hybrid and can be fully remote (the person I hired chose hybrid but it was her choice).

      I got 600 applicants over a month (though I’d chosen the people for the HR screen by the time we got to 300), 14 to HR screen, 7 to hiring manager interview, 3 to final panel, 1 offer/acceptance (she starts Monday).

      Reply ↓
    10. Ama*

      I’m a full time freelancer and only looking for PT contract work to supplement my main business, so my experience is a little different, but it seems to me like in the freelance/contract area there are so few well-written job descriptions out there that anything actually seems feasible for both the pay rate and the work needed is very competitive. Meanwhile the employers that post jobs that pay $600 a month for what they say is 10-20 hours of work but list a set of duties that would be a lot for a full time job are out here wondering why they can’t get anyone with the right skills and experience to apply.

      Reply ↓
    11. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think it’s definitely tough (I’m not seeing anything I would even be interested in let alone qualified for), but I’m with you on some of the exaggeration, if only because I’ve seen people say “I’ve applied for a thousand jobs in the last two months.” There are very few of us whose experience is so broad that there are a thousand jobs out there that we could reasonably do, so I do wonder how many people are really bad at applying for jobs (either applying for stuff they don’t have the experience for, not writing a cover letter that explains their transferable skills to a new sector, following bad TikTok advice, etc.).

      Like you, if folks in this community are having a tough time, I do put more weight on that because I know people here know how to apply for jobs and interview.

      Reply ↓
    12. Can't Sit Still*

      My department normally takes 6-8 months to fill positions, but we have been easily filling positions lately. These are highly skilled technical positions that are normally impossible to fill without doing a literal global search, but we have been able to hire locally lately.

      Reply ↓
    13. Blue Pen*

      I don’t know if this exactly answers your question, but I also work in marketing and communications at a large university; I’m not looking for a new position for myself, but when I go to check on similar positions for friends interested in making a move, the first thing I notice is how slim pickings there are right now. I would say, compared to last year, there’s a quarter the amount of marketing and communications jobs listings, making those that are available all the more competitive. A friend of mine is a graphic designer, and she’s been looking for a job here for at least a year but can’t break through. So yeah, I do think it’s pretty rough.

      Reply ↓
    14. Golden*

      I think biotech is pretty tough right now, particularly on the lab side. I’ve seen a small uptick in recruiters reaching out to me (I’m on the clinical development side), but have quite a few former colleagues still experiencing layoffs.

      Reply ↓
      1. Dandylions*

        Can confirm. I was applying this summer and never even got interviewed for some internal roles I was a great fit for (analysis and data scientist side). I was able to get answers from the HMs though.

        I applied on day 4 of the posting so was not even considered. Because on day 1 they received 1,200 application and of those ~200 were passed onto the on day 2. They only reviewed the first 50 of those, found 5 people worth interviewing and hired one of them.

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    15. DivergentStitches*

      It sounds like your resume is on point if you’re getting this many interviews. Getting to final rounds means you’re interviewing well. It’s just a tough market right now, so you’re probably being edged out by someone with slightly more experience. 99.9999% of the time it’s not personal!

      I work in payroll integrations and have been looking around for 6 months and have only had a small handful of first screening interviews. I’m even struggling to find opportunities internally at a large company.

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    16. Generic Name*

      From the hiring side in the construction and engineering industry, it is very, very difficult to find upper and mid-level candidates. We’ve had senior level job postings in the US and Canada open for like 6 months, and we’ve interviewed 3 people in Canada, and 3 people in the US. I don’t know how many applicants total applied, but it was a struggle to find people qualified enough to interview. We will likely be posting some entry level positions in a few months, so we’ll see how that goes. We are very flexible with our requirements for entry-level candidates. They don’t necessarily have to have a related degree, as long as they have some kind of degree and show an aptitude and drive for learning our type of work. Prior experience is not required either.

      Reply ↓
      1. CheerfulGinger*

        Also in the engineering industry. Senior level means around 10 to 15 years of experience. What was happening 10 or 15 year ago? 2008, a serious economic depression. All those entry-level engineers never got hired. My theory is that the industry has a serious “hole” at the 10 to 15 year experience level.

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    17. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I have specialities in HR/DEI/Culture so my job is fairly in demand right now. I was only out of work for like a month in my most recent transition. But I know a lot of skilled people who have never had trouble before and have been looking for over a year. It depends a lot on your industry, your level, your geography – your luck, frankly. I think different people are having very different experiences right now, but overall it’s a tough market.

      Reply ↓
    18. Crochet*

      I heard from an ex-colleague that his new company (in the tech sector) had over 1000 applications for one technical writing position.
      I think that in some sectors, the job market is very competitive right now.

      Reply ↓
    19. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      As others have said, I think it really varies. The recruiters who have reached out to me on LinkedIn are all in the financial services industry, and I see many of the same customer-facing jobs repeatedly posted on Indeed (especially call centers!). On the other hand, the library job I applied to on Wednesday was posted for less than 24 hours.

      Reply ↓
    20. KnittingattheBallpark*

      I am in safety/risk management and just recently started a new job (about a month ago) after looking for nearly 9 months. I was being picky but probably applied to over 50 positions. I got a ton of screening calls, escalated to final interview stage about 5-6 times. I got three offers. One was far too low on salary, the other was only very slightly low on salary but the vibes were off, and I accepted the third offer. Over the 9 months, I saw the number of listings decrease significantly, especially for mid-level positions.

      Reply ↓
    21. Excel Gardener*

      I’m in business/systems/data analytics, and it definitely seems pretty competitive right now, especially for entry level and early-mid-level positions. The exception is if you have 7+ years of experience or experience in certain hot skills there are more positions, but for the average SQL/Excel/Python analyst with 2-5 years experience like me it’s not great. It feels like a lot of positions are looking for the proverbial purple unicorn. Luckily I have a stable job at a big company so I’m not actively looking right now.

      Reply ↓
    22. Quinalla*

      It does vary a lot by what field you are in, tech is very tight right now for example. For me, I am not actively looking, but for the past several years, I was getting A LOT of headhunters/recruiters hitting me up on linked-in, even tracking down my email/phone and reaching out seeing if I was interested in a new job. In the last ~6 months, that has slowed way, way down. So my market (design for construction) has definitely cooled a lot recently. It was pretty hot for a while there, feels more like normal or maybe even on the cool side now.

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    23. Noodles*

      My partner, who works at a tech company but not at a technical job, has found it extremely difficult to find a new job, as have their colleagues. Lots of people are trying to leave these companies that are going full time back to office and also laying people off. Barely any interviews and no offers, despite networking, following all the advice, etc. Literally 1000s of applicants for jobs. All these companies over-hired on tech, and now that they’re laying everyone off, there’s nowhere to go.

      Reply ↓
    24. Qwerty*

      It varies a ton by field and experience level. In my field of software engineering, I’d say its very competitive for junior and mid-level roles. However, most local companies I know are struggling to find qualified senior engineers.

      My recommendation for job seekers is to zoom out and look at the trends over the past few years. In tech, software salaries went crazy during 2020-2023 along with there being a lot of title inflation. The giant hiring/hoarding also meant a smaller amount of meaningful work per person, so their skills may not match their years of experience or they ended up stagnating.

      General trends I’m seeing that are more industry/role agnostic is that lateral moves are easier than aspirational ones. Hiring managers are looking for people who are experienced in the role and willing to wait to find someone rather than taking a risk. There’s a general concern about future budgets even at stable companies so open positions get paused or delayed even though there isn’t a freeze.

      Overall I’d say 4 final rounds stemming from 7 companies is a pretty good rate! It might be that its just coming down to fit. But I’d also consider if there’s a way to better show how your experience fits their specific needs. Sometimes you’ll get two strong candidates and one shows how they are independently skilled and the other shows how they are skilled for this specific job. The second person is more likely to get the role even if they are less objectively qualified. (Caveat to make sure the role is a good fit for you – I’ve had people focus so much on selling themselves that they didn’t listen to important information and ended up hating the role once they got it)

      Reply ↓
  4. Vindication Stories*

    I had a freelance editing job go badly last autumn, and it stuck with me because I’ve never had that happen before (20+ years). The program manager had just been promoted into the role and she kept changing her mind on scope, so I re-processed the same set of documents 3 times (one more than I contractually allow, which is on me for being spineless). Finally she told me to stop and wait for further direction.

    Her boss ended up firing me over Teams, citing a bunch of lies: They wanted me to create new content from scratch and I didn’t deliver (that wasn’t the job, the job was rewriting existing content to meet their just-overhauled industry regulatory standards), I never posted the documents to their CMS like they told me to (I was told to send them by file share because IT wouldn’t approve freelancer access to their system, so what he was demanding would have required me literally hacking them), on and on. I tried to politely correct his errors but he wasn’t having it. I got off the call feeling infuriated and depressed.

    Last night out of curiosity, I searched them on LinkedIn. The program manager was demoted back to her old job a month after they fired me. Her boss is no longer listed as part of the company, and in fact I can’t find his account at all. I’m not saying I wish people ill, but this feels like proof that the issue wasn’t me being an incompetent moron.

    Anyone else have vindication stories?

    Reply ↓
    1. Job Hunting Warrior*

      I do understand the need to see objective evidence that others have had bad experiences with certain people. I haven’t experienced an obvious vindication like yours (I wish!), but plenty of relieved, whispered conversations with people who have *also* suffered the insanity and who thought they were alone. As the years go by, those people/conversations multiply.

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    2. Panicked*

      Years ago, I worked with a woman who did NOT like me, for seemingly no reason. I consider myself pretty easy to get along with, but this woman had it out for me. My organization hired her friend and it only got worse. Whispering, intentionally sabotaging my work, badmouthing me to other employees/customers. At one point, they staged and intervention of sorts to get me to resign. (Yes, it was just as bananapants as it sounds.)

      A few months later, the woman disappeared. We were told “she will not be returning.” Turns out, she was stealing from the company and padding her numbers by opening accounts for her friends (by forging their signatures). Big no-no. Her friend was allowed to stay, as she couldn’t be implicated in it. After a few weeks, the friend says “I owe you an apology. You are actually lovely and didn’t deserve the way we treated you.” Felt good!

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    3. Anon for This*

      Two of my top 3 worst managers ended up fired. One was fired a couple months after I left. And the other was moved around the company until she ended up in a department where the director didn’t play those “just move the bad employee” games.

      Here’s hoping my current manager (who is #2 of my top worst) follows suit.

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    4. Unkempt Flatware*

      Unfortunately, I put too much energy into watching past AHs to see what their life is like now. I certainly feel vindicated when I see they’ve been hoisted by their own petard. However, this is very unhealthy for me. It stems from severe and long lasting bullying and abuse in my household growing up. The result of being treated like that by so long by so many people has led me to seek ‘revenge’ which I never follow up on but do fantasize about. I am never actually satisfied when I see they have blown themselves up, however.

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    5. Texan In Exile*

      Story 1
      CEO was a complete jerk (four of the 14 people in my location had quit in a year, including one person who went to lunch and didn’t come back) who told my boss to tell me not to come in the day after I gave negative feedback (I noted that the topics we had covered had nothing to do with my job) about a day-long meeting.

      I had to grovel and apologize, but I already had an offer for a new job so I gritted my teeth so I could use up my PTO and then resign. (They didn’t pay out unused PTO.)

      A year later, the board fired the CEO.

      Story 2
      I loved my new job and my new boss, but four years later, the company was acquired and they brought in a bunch of GE people to run it, including a new marketing VP who became my boss.

      They demoted the existing marketing VP to director. The CEO called the existing VP on Christmas to tell her this would be happening.

      In my performance evaluation, the new VP/my new boss told me that she didn’t get it – that everyone she talked to about me liked me and thought I did great work.

      Four months later, she eliminated my position. In the months after that, half of the marketing department quit, including the VP who had been demoted.

      A year later, the new VP was FIRED.

      A dozen former co-workers texted me to let me know what had happened.

      Reply ↓
    6. Rage*

      This is low-stakes compared to some of the others, but was still rather satisfying.

      My employer put on an annual event for our client companies (specifically for HR and HR-related staff). We would have a keynote speaker, various breakout sessions, and a catered lunch. Since my employer was mental-health-adjacent (EAP), a number of our breakout sessions were focused on mental health topics.

      One year we switched the venue to our local botanical gardens. My CEO said, “Can you find out if we could hold one of our breakout sessions outside in the garden?” The answer was “Yes, but we can’t guarantee that you would not be disturbed or interrupted. We won’t block of parts of the garden off from other visitors during regular operating hours.”

      I relayed this, and CEO said, “Let’s do it anyway. We will move the Stress Management breakout session outside, and then we can add another session option for the inside room.”

      “You really shouldn’t do that,” I said. “If the weather is bad, you will need a place to bring the outside session back inside to shelter.”

      “Rage,” he said, “don’t be so negative all the time!”

      I held firm; if the session was going to be outside, there would be an inside room to accommodate them if the weather did not cooperate.

      The event was held in late April. In Kansas.

      It snowed.

      Reply ↓
      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I was really kind of hoping that members of the public decided to join the Stress Management session randomly.

        But you can never make assumptions about Midwestern weather. Just that you’ll have weather.

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    7. learnedthehardway*

      Had achieved a dream job, but my new manager left after 4 months. The next manager let me go just a few months later and then lied to my internal clients, saying I had quit without notice. Quite devastating to me, as I had been put my heart and soul into the job, and really wanted to progress in the company. I got a call at home from one of the internal clients, who was furious that I had “quit” – I heard later that she ripped up one side and down the other of my former manager, after I had explained that I had, in fact, been fired.

      During my job search, I reached out to a well-regarded executive search firm in my city. The managing partner didn’t have a role open, but suggested I come down and have a chat with them. I agreed, as I figured it was a networking thing and for future opportunities.

      Anyway, I get to the meeting, and the managing partner asks what happened at my former employer. I tried to be diplomatic, but it was pretty clear that there were political undercurrents to the situation, because otherwise it made no sense that I had been let go that I could see, although of course I had totally lost my confidence and thought that I must have really screwed up. So I explained what happened, and what I thought the reasons were. At that point, the managing partner of the firm explained that they had asked me to come in in order to tell me that this was that manager’s SOP – every place that person had ever gone, they had decimated the team and brought in their own people. The managing partner predicted that the manager would last at most 2 years and then would get fired.

      I felt so validated and supported, even though the firm didn’t have a role for me – it really helped so much to realize that this bewildering situation really wasn’t about my performance at all, and I was just blown away that this complete stranger cared enough about the situation to point out the pattern and reassure me that it couldn’t possibly have been my fault.

      Turns out, they were correct. Sure enough, within 2 years, the new manager had fired half the team, brought in all new people in their network, and then got fired, themself. As it turned out, while I was on parental leave, the company I subsequently worked with told me they were hiring this person, and I was able to bring the pattern to their attention, and also to say that I wouldn’t be returning, if they hired that individual. In fact, it was a data point in my decision to start my own business.

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    8. Anon for this*

      A particularly patriarchal, misogynist man at my workplace with whom I did not get along angled to hold me personally responsible for the actions of a committee I was part of but not leading (which actions were not really discipline-needing offenses, just things he didn’t like.) He did not succeed. We continued to not get along, partly because his specific beliefs and his expression of such were not aligned with our mission and it annoyed me.

      He kept moralizing all over the place until the day he was fired for sending inappropriate photos of himself to non-consenting colleagues, at which point he and his wife started a business related to our sector and posted a bunch on social media about how exciting it was that God had led him in this direction.

      To my great credit, when someone from another organization ran into me out in the wild and expressed surprise that this guy wasn’t attending the Big Thing that his organization was hosting, and what had happened to him? all I said was that he’d actually started his own business with his wife and seemed excited about it.

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    9. Wilbur*

      I was a contractor and the manager I reported to was great! Raises weren’t great, but I had a lot of room to develop and was given a lot of agency. I spent years pushing to raise my visibility and try and get hired on, as full time employees had much better salaries, benefits, bonuses, PTO, etc. Manger was let go and I was disappointed because I thought she was really supportive. I burned out before I finally was converted. Grabbed coffee with my old manager who had gotten hired back on as a technician (a huge demotion), felt a bit bad about her employment situation until she blurted out how happy she was for me, how she wanted to be the one to hire me on, and that she had kept my raises small because she wanted to give me a huge pay bump when she finally hired me on. I no longer have sympathy for her employment issues and her ever shifting job prospects.

      Reply ↓
  5. Mothman's Uber*

    Might be an odd question but how do you make a work friend into a real life friend? I have several people in my life who have friends they meet at work who they regularly see outside of work and even keep when they stop working together. In all the jobs I’ve had, I have work friends in the kind that we have fun chatting when work is slow and swap personal holiday gifts (not like an office Secret Santa) but none who I would like to get to know outside of work. Recently, there are two coworkers who I’d like to get to know more: one is a newer employee (has been here a couple months now) and one is someone who has been here nearly as long as I have but I only recently got to know through a project we worked on. Both are people who I find fun and, in our conversations, we have overlapping interests and hobbies.

    How do I figure out if they’re interested in being friends or if they’re just being friendly at work? The newer person is a front desk employee so she’s tied to her desk the majority of the day. I enjoy walking down and talking to her but I worry that I’m forcing my presence on her since she can’t leave her desk. I’ve always been a little awkward with making friends and anxious about how people perceive me, so I feel weird navigating an office friendship that I’d like to actually pursue. I know I’m overthinking this and the answer is probably just keep friendly chatting and maybe mention getting lunch together on a work day before trying to see if they want to hang out outside of work. Any thoughts?

    Reply ↓
    1. Arden Windermere*

      I definitely think that lunch outside of work on a work day is the first step. See how that goes and if it’s fun, try to do it maybe weekly. At some point there will probably be some kind of event or something going on where one of you can say “hey, there’s this band/bar trivia/car show/thing after work – want to come check it out with me?”

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    2. Pocomo 888*

      I struggle with this too. I think I would start with a casual suggestion, somewhere along the lines of, “we should grab lunch sometime!”, and see how she responds. If it’s lukewarm or not particularly enthusiastic, I wouldn’t bring it up again. If she seems interested, you could say something like – I think next week looks pretty good for me, but I’ll double check. Then maybe wait a few hours and come back with a few suggested dates. And then beyond that, and based on how the lunch went, you could try suggesting something hobby/interest related that you could attend together. Just stay attuned to cues that she may be giving off.

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      1. evens*

        Don’t go with “we should grab lunch sometime.” Try “Want to go to [specific place] today/tomorrow for lunch?” Otherwise, you are putting the burden of “how about now?” “Should we go here?” on them. If they say yes, win! If they say no but seem regretful, try again in a week or two.

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    3. Emily of New Moon*

      Ask them if they’d like to get together sometime outside of work. That’s what I did, and now I have a new friend!

      Reply ↓
      1. AnonymousOctopus*

        I was the recipient of this and it worked! I always thought my colleague was awesome but am shy about inviting people/imposing on their free time, so I was thrilled when she asked. We both left the company but still get together a few times a month.

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      2. Great Frogs of Literature*

        I think I literally slacked a coworker, “Hey, you seem plausibly friend-shaped — want to get together for a walk sometime?” (we’re fully remote, but both local) and she said yes. We aren’t close, but it’s three jobs later for her and we still meet up a few times a year.

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    4. Hlao-roo*

      I think lunch together on a work day is a great first step!

      If that goes well, for outside-of-work hangouts, my suggestions are:
      – invite them to something you’re planning to do anyways, and
      – make it easy for them to say “no”

      It could look something like this: “hey, I’m going to the local art museum on Saturday because they have a new exhibit on abstract sculptures*. Are you interested in joining?” That way they can easily say “sorry, I’m busy on Saturday” or “I love sculpting, but museums aren’t really my thing.”

      Best of luck!

      *where “abstract sculptures” is a shared interest (or sculpting is a shared hobby). Obviously change the script for whatever interests/hobbies you have in common with your coworkers.

      Reply ↓
      1. Quinalla*

        Yup, I second this. Make it something you are doing regardless so if they show up or not, it doesn’t affect your plans and yes, say something further to make it easy to say no like “I know you are probably pretty busy, but …” that way if they don’t want to go, they can take the out you offered. If they say no I can’t go, have fun! Then don’t invite them again. If they say more like, Oh, I am busy that day but really would love to do something like that in the future. Then try again. I usually will try 3 times if the vibes seem good and if none of those work, I probably back off a bit.

        Folks that have become friends outside of work, that is how it started and eventually we were playing D&D or board games monthly or going to X event together or just getting together for dinner and/or a movie. And some of the folks don’t work with either me or my husband anymore, but are still in the friend group, some still work with us.

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    5. Nicosloanica*

      Making friends is a process of slow escalation, pausing at each step to see if there’s reciprocity. If no receprocity, take a step back down and be happy there. It’s not some sort of judgement on you if they’re happy at the “coffee break together” level but don’t want to hang out outside work, it’s just that nobody has a lot of time/space right now in their lives. An escalation to me would look like: step one, friendly conversations. Step two, invite someone to join you on a coffee break or a happy hour with a group. No pressure. If they decline, you should only ask maybe one more time and then not again, they will invite you if they actually do want to get closer but the timing wasn’t right. Step three, maybe invite them, maybe as part of a group, to do something outside work hours, like on the weekend. Step four might be one on one hangouts outside work / going to each others houses. Step 500 is like, vacationing together. To be fair, work friends are hard to judge because I’ve had many I hung out with outside of work and would have sworn we were “real friends” but when I left that role it turned out we didn’t have quite as much in common as I thought, it was more the circumstances of both spending 40 hours a week in the same place. But that’s not a failure! We still had fun together and have warm feelings from a distance now.

      Reply ↓
      1. Nicosloanica*

        Oh and the master trick: when you get to step 3/4, try to pick something you want to do anyway, and make the specific invitation, like “I was thinking I’d like to go see the new Deadpool movie on Saturday, any interest in seeing it with me?” rather than “do you want to hang out sometime.” Captain Awkward has some good stuff on this if you look at the Friends tag.

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      2. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Basically all of this. I met my best friends at an old job years and years ago, and our friendship definitely evolved exactly like this. Coffee breaks, grabbing lunch together, going for drinks after work, hanging out on the weekend, etc.

        The only thing I’d caution is that once you stop working together, it will take a bit more work to stay engaged since you won’t see each other every day. We almost never do anything on a weeknight anymore because it’s too annoying to get together because we no longer have that close proximity. But that’s also not dissimilar to non-work friends who you can’t get together with because people have work, families, etc.

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    6. Casual Librarian*

      Some ideas I have used:
      * Lunch together which can either be in a break room at the same time or going out to eat quick. This has the perks of being a short time frame that has a set ending, but the conversation can be a bit more personal and less work-related.
      *Happy hour/after work meal or drink/snack: Same pros as before where it’s immediately work-adjacent, but there’s no definite end.
      *Start or join a work-based fantasy football/pick ’ems league. You can talk about it at work, but you also get to interact with people outside of work if you want to.
      *Join a work social committee or other cross-team effort which can be more informal.
      *I’m a big fan of setting up trivia nights if I know a coworker I’m friendly with is into X and that topic is on the docket for a local trivia game.
      *I have sometimes tried to transition by getting someone’s personal phone number whether it’s to quick send a picture of something I’m selling, I want to message them something I don’t want on the work servers, or else if we are traveling together. It’s been useful to have a few of these on hand and can help the transition. I also know some coworkers that try to go the Facebook/social media follow route. I don’t love this one, but I suppose it’s an option if that’s your type of connection.
      *Offer to loan out something you have that they need–example is I’ve loaned out yard equipment and small construction equipment so that people don’t need to rent.
      *When I was pumping at work, I had a coworker that, every day, woudl make a point to eat lunch with me on the other side of the wall while I pumped/ate. She hated that I was lonely.

      I’ll say that most of my friends I’ve made in my adult life are from work. I’ve tried other avenues, but work friends have gone the extra mile.

      Reply ↓
      1. HappyPizzamas*

        I agree to all of this. We started a restaurant club at one of my previous jobs to try out new places and even though I’ve switched jobs, we still go out once a month.

        Current place has a trivia group. I feel like I’ve been able to maintain my work friends more when it’s tied to a specific activity vs. just happy hour.

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    7. Pay no attention...*

      If you have a hobby/interest in common, you could try to engage them in something like that. My work friend, who’s now a real friend, and I bonded over our love of cacti and succulents. We’ve seen each other at big regional plant sales or shows. The low key part of that is that it’s been a big public event, we both were going to be there anyway (or wanted to but maybe hadn’t decided), and then agreed to meet up at the event, or swap plants, etc. I’ve seen this play out with others at work around me… bond over sports, quilting, music, plants, animals… then that turns into a friendship outside of work. I participate in Fantasy Football and now I get together with a group of current and former co-workers and two former bosses at least once during the season to hang out.

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    8. WantonSeedStitch*

      Grabbing lunch is a perfect first step. Hanging out after work for a drink or snack or something is a great next step–it’s a natural continuation from the workday, and a good way to segue to hanging out outside of work hours.

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    9. The Coolest Clown Around*

      At my job I’ve made a few friends by inviting people to work lunches, then to more casual lunches, and then to something after work/on a weekend that’s very casual a few times (soup party! Tis the season!). After a while, either they start to reciprocate or if they don’t I just keep it fairly chill. It often takes a little longer for people to return that last casual event step than the others, I think just because most people my age don’t have a good hosting space in the region I live in.

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    10. Donkey Hotey*

      I have a pretty strong policy of not hanging out 1:1 with co-workers. If a group of co-workers do things, fine. But I wait until one of us leaves before I suggest anything else.

      Reply ↓
    11. Artemesia*

      Have a little dinner party– make pizza or spaghetti, doesn’t have to be fancy — and invite a person you hope to develop friendship with along with other people you know or are friends with. when everyone at a party is from work– it feels like a work party but if you include a work friend in a group that is not other folks form work then it is clearly a personal overture.

      Reply ↓
    12. Blue Pen*

      Most of my closest work-to-friend relationships came from trauma bonding: our workplace was miserable, but that allowed us to forge some pretty strong bonds.

      I’m now in a place where it’s much healthier, and I’m struggling a bit with this now, too! Everyone here is friendly and chats with you, but I haven’t yet picked up on the “did we just become best friends?!” vibe yet. There’s definitely some potentials, though, so we’ll see—I think it just takes time and putting low-stakes feelers out: as in, step outside the office. Are you regularly getting coffee with this person? Grabbing a drink? Then in my mind, you’re friends, and you could think about pushing it to another level in a casual way: “Oh cool, you’re going to the farmer’s market on Saturday morning, too? I’ll look for you there!”

      Reply ↓
    13. WYKYK*

      I have a few friends I’ve made via work and they all started the same way! Just getting lunch or coffee together. That gives you time and space to figure out if you have anything in common. It’s honestly hard to put into word when you know it’s moved from just coworkers to friends. I feel like you just pick up on a vibe? Those lunches change to maybe going to the movies, or a sporting event. It just feels like a natural progression.

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    14. Speak*

      You say you have “overlapping interests and hobbies”, if you are going to an event outside of work invite them to come with. I am a skier & found out that a few of our newer hires are either snowboarder or skiers, so if I am going to go to a mountain after work one day, I have asked if they are interested in joining me on the mountain. None took me up on it this past Winter, but I was only able to go twice after work since the ski season was bad in my area.

      Reply ↓
    15. Qwerty*

      1. Group outing. Usually I’m the organizer of office happy hours. Current job some of us walk to lunch together. The larger the group, the greater success because there’s less pressure.
      2. Local events related to the industry, like a networking event. Invite 1-2 people to join. Make sure not to spend the whole night together – it is more of “we are a backup plan for when going up to strangers feels intimidating”
      3. Chat from 1&2 will likely produce opportunities to hang out. A concert you both like, a brewery you want to try, etc. Casual stuff works best where each person drives separately and can leave on their own timetable.
      4. We have now merged with the normal “how to make a friend” freeway, continue as far as you mutually agree upon.

      Reply ↓
    16. I should really pick a name*

      Just go ahead and invite them to do something.

      See a play, go to a museum, stuff like that. An activity that will provide conversation topics.

      Reply ↓
  6. BellaStella*

    Thank you all for the advice on what to wear to a speaking gig on AI last week. I did well, made 15 great new contacts, had a lot of good cocktail discussions (including one on the politics of being childfree which was off topic but really great!), and learned a lot at the conference! In the end, I wore black pants with a white t shirt and lightweight pale blue blazer with rolled cuffs. It started my week off really well too. Now, just waiting for more news about some work challenges that I hope soon are resolved.

    Reply ↓
  7. Tradd*

    This is a fun time for anyone involved with ocean transportation/customs clearance for container freight over the US east coast/gulf. There is a dockworkers’ strike that will happen Tuesday unless something happens in the meantime. I’m the customs broker that often posts. We’re having to hold off submitting clearances for shipments arriving this weekend or later. It’s common with dockworkers’ strikes for ships to get diverted to other ports if they don’t just sit off shore. I wrote up something explaining it all in plain simple language to send to any customer who asks.

    On a different note, from my post last Friday about the HS codes and overseas agents being difficult? I made up a template we send when we handle those requests and people are HOWLING at additional information being requested before we can fulfil their request. I think one overseas agent finally got it that providing more information at the beginning means he gets what he needs much quicker. Otherwise, we’re telling everyone that we can’t assist without the required info. Higher ups are backing me up!

    Reply ↓
    1. Self Employed Employee*

      Excellent news on the template. I am guessing the howlers will soon catch up to the process.

      (I know nothing about working in customs, so it is always interesting to read your posts.)

      Reply ↓
  8. multipotentialite*

    I have an interview for a volunteer position at an animal rescue. Do I still need to dress formally? Are “dressy casual” clothes enough? They interview anyone applying to be a volunteer.

    Reply ↓
    1. Ms. Yvonne*

      I am sure you are safe showing up “dressy casual” – anything more will be out of context for the kind of work they do.

      Reply ↓
    2. Dust Bunny*

      Dressy casual sounds good.

      It doesn’t matter that it’s not what you’d wear to work there (maybe); it’s that you want to make a good impression.

      Reply ↓
    3. EngGirl*

      I would actually call and ask if there’s going to be any component to this that involves interacting with the animals. You don’t necessarily want to show up in nice dressy casual stuff only to find out they want you on the floor being swarmed by puppies (even though this is my literal dream)

      Reply ↓
      1. MsM*

        Good point. (Or even if they just offer to take you around so you can meet the animals, you don’t want to be wearing something that would make that prohibitive.)

        Reply ↓
      2. Cyndi*

        Yeah, when I was a shelter volunteer there were specific restrictions on what we could and couldn’t wear when handling the animals (closed toe shoes, long pants, etc.) for hygiene and safety reasons, so if this place has similar rules it’d be useful to dress with them in mind.

        Reply ↓
    4. Buffalo*

      I used to run a cat rescue. If you’re volunteering with the animals, I’d go more casual than dressy casual. If it’s more of an office volunteer role, aim for more dressy casual.

      Reply ↓
    5. Tiina*

      I’d dress to be comfortable and potentially be in active work areas. I’ve volunteered with an animal rescue and a wildlife rehabilitation center. For interviews and orientations at both, I toured the facilities and animal enclosures. Even if you stick with the dressier end of casual, consider wearing shoes that you don’t mind getting dirty and/or potentially needing to rinse off.

      Reply ↓
    6. Annony*

      Wear the dressiest thing you would be comfortable wearing for the actual job you want to do. So maybe dressy casual if you would be doing reception or filing applications but more like some nice jeans with a plain t-shirt and sneakers if you are going to be picking up poop and washing dogs.

      Reply ↓
    8. Policy Wonk*

      Wear something you would be willing to engage with animals in, then dress it up slightly with a blazer or sweater you could remove for the animal portion.

      Reply ↓
  9. Left out as the sole non-Mom*

    My colleagues are all women, including my Director and Manager. My team-mates too. As I am, but the one thing that differentiates me is that I don’t have kids, and am starting to feel ostracized as the only one without kids?

    Like once some said at a team meeting “I don’t know what I did with all my free time before I had kids” and then everyone looked at me. This was early in my role and really set the tone.

    And recently we talked about a tv show (Breaking Bad) that I brought up and some of my teammates said she didn’t have time to watch it and the others nodded in unison said “That’s life with kids” despite the fact the show aired well before any of them had kids in the first place.

    And my admin who is pregnant is getting quite close to my Manager too, and they are always texting outside of work and my Manager plans on seeing her post delivery in the hospital. But I also see my Manager also looking out for more professional development opportunities for our admin. Much more compared to me.

    I’ve never felt this out of place in other roles where my colleagues were parents. Any advice? I realize too this might be in my head but when we have group meetings it confirms my suspicions.

    Reply ↓
    1. Glazed Donut*

      They’re choosing to lean into the division when it isn’t necessary. I was in a similar situation in a job but it was by age – everyone else would comment on old TV shows, incidents at the company 15 years prior, etc., knowing I didn’t know what they were talking about. I think they thought it was cute (and maybe they thought made me feel special? I didn’t).
      Change the topic, let it roll off your back, or talk to someone in a position of authority about how it’s ostracizing you – you’re sure it’s not intentional (benefit of the doubt) but it’s impacting your experience at work.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        They’re choosing to lean into the division when it isn’t necessary.

        I agree with this. In one of my first full-time jobs, most of my coworkers were 15+ years older than me and had kids. They occasionally made jokes about me being young/not understanding their references/not understanding older technology. But it was occasional not constant so it felt good-natured to me. There also were occasional times where they would be swapping stories/advice about raising kids and I didn’t have anything to contribute to those conversations. But never all of them making “that’s life with kids” and “what even is life before kids?” comments and giving me pointed looks to single me out as The Person Without Kids.

        No advice, just confirmation that your coworkers’ comments do feel very pointed.

        Reply ↓
        1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          I also wonder if they are wanting to know more about OP’s time because they want to live through them.

          Reply ↓
    2. Nicosloanica*

      Ugh, yes, it’s hard sometimes when you feel like you can barely talk about anything in your life without seeming to give offense/highlight the differences (and they may feel the same way. You ask “how was your weekend” and they can’t figure out what to say because it was just a blur of child disaster). I guess a lot of empathy and since you’re completely outnumbered I’d probably make it clear you’re not kid-negative. Sometimes you might talk about a niece/godchild/other child in your life, ask questions about their kids etc. You’re not going to change hearts and minds if you’re literally the only one so you might have to go along to get along a bit here.

      Reply ↓
    3. Pomegranates*

      The very important piece here is that it is affecting your professional development opportunities. If you think your manager will be receptive, I think talking to her could be useful, but that’s a judgement call on your part.

      Reply ↓
    4. Dust Bunny*

      . . . this seems like they’re weirdly invested in Being Moms and creating a bigger gulf than is necessary? My department has five people–one with grown kids, one with small kids, and three with no kids (four women and one man, and the man is a very involved dad, not the type to leave most of it to his wife), and the ones with kids don’t talk about their kids or parenting lives anywhere near this much. The ones with kids also have interests other than the kids, so.

      Reply ↓
      1. SansaStark*

        I was thinking the same thing. Everyone on my team has kids except me ranging from grown adults to littles, and the kids only come up once and awhile in chit-chat about their weekend or some silly/annoying thing one of them did.

        IME, it’s hard to talk to people who talk down to childfree folks with stuff like “I don’t know what I did with all that free time before kids” without saying something like “And I don’t know how I’d live with all that noise and no weekend naps, Susan, so I guess we’ll just keep living the lives we’ve chosen for ourselves.” I know that’s not really helpful in a work context, so I usually just interject small stories about my nieces or my friends’ kids so that I’m not left out of the conversation entirely.

        Reply ↓
        1. Dust Bunny*

          Even when I worked in jobs where nearly everyone else was pregnant or a young mom, they weren’t this Mom-Centric at work and they didn’t assume that my childless weekends were wild bacchanals–single non-parents also have to grocery shop and do laundry and clean house. What the OP describes here seems pretty far out on the bell curve.

          Reply ↓
      2. MsM*

        Yeah, my parent coworkers are always the ones telling me, “Oh, you have to watch [insert show here]!” Maybe you can just go, “Oh, well, you should check it out if you’re able to find time,” and then redirect the conversation to work or something else that can’t be turned into a parenting conversation without a lot of bending over backwards?

        Reply ↓
      3. Yes And*

        This was my reaction as well. I have two school-age kids, and finding time to do stuff for ourselves is… not actually that hard? Like, I couldn’t binge a whole series in one go even if I wanted to, but my wife and I sit down to watch an episode of something between the kids’ bedtime and our own most nights. It’s a nice ritual to wind down the day together, and we’ve made it through several prestige series (including Breaking Bad, twice).

        Some parents – not just women, although that’s the sexist stereotype, I’ve often seen men do this too – are really into the martyrdom of having had to (gasp) make choices to start a family. It sounds to me like the Manager is one such, as she’s set the tone for the whole office.

        I’d be tempted to test that hypothesis. What happens if you try to draw out your other coworkers on non-kid topics when you’re one on one, or in a small group without Manager there?

        Reply ↓
    5. Lisa*

      I’m also single, but and granted I haven’t had a female boss in years, but having a manager visiting me in the hospital seems WEIRD! That feels like crossing a line for sure. I do prefer to keep my personal and professional lives somewhat separated except maybe with a few close people, so it could just be me. Maybe they’re all intertwined because they’ve started relying on each other for personal things and not realizing what that means for anybody not enmeshed in their circle. It not being something you can change, I think you’re probably better off looking for a different place to work that isn’t so clique-ish.

      Reply ↓
    6. Anon4this*

      I would talk to your manager about the professional development. Don’t comment that she is giving more to your coworker just ask if there are x opportunities for you and you’d be interested. Advocate for yourself respectfully.

      Let the show stuff roll off your back. I’m a parent but my sister is childless and single by choice, so she talks to me about it. Her issue is when more work is pushed to her because she has no kids. Even with parent friends I talk about shows I watch at night and they say to me “I wish I had the time!” Everyone priorities different things.

      Reply ↓
    7. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I don’t think it’s in your head, but I do think a lot of this is people not necessarily Mom-ing at you so much as Mom-ing around you because there are so many other moms. Like the “Breaking Bad” example isn’t really about the fact that they could have watched it before they had kids (lots of people aren’t up on popular TV when it airs), it’s just that they broadly don’t have a ton of free time to do it now.

      If it were me, I’d probably try to ignore all the stuff that wasn’t affecting me professionally. I think your manager going to see your admin in hospital is super weird and a giant overstep, so that’s something I’d continue to keep an eye on. Likewise, if your manager is looking at lots of professional development opportunities for your admin but not you, speak up! Your issue isn’t that the admin might be getting PD, because that’s actually a good thing, it’s that you aren’t also getting PD so you need to find a way to rectify that if your boss hasn’t noticed herself.

      Reply ↓
      1. Dust Bunny*

        Like once some said at a team meeting “I don’t know what I did with all my free time before I had kids” and then everyone looked at me.

        That’s skirting a bit close to mom-ing at her.

        Even if it’s not, it’s ridiculous and entirely unnecessary to single out one person for something so utterly not-work-related.

        Reply ↓
    8. Joelle*

      Ugh, this sounds terrible, I’m sorry OP!

      I would go to my boss and say “hey, I notice you’ve given Receptionist more career development stuff than me lately – can I ask what’s up with that because I hope I haven’t given you the impression that I am not interested in that stuff.” (But a bit more polished – I am having trouble accessing my inner Alison today for wording) and see what she says. That might help with that aspect.

      As for all the mom talk, I agree with all the advice others have suggested. Also, how is your grandboss? Is she someone you can talk to about the wider problem if your manager isn’t? Maybe someone in HR? Approach this as a “I am looking for tips on how to make this situation feel less ostracizing/what to say in response” in feel because of course my boss and coworkers aren’t trying to other me, it’s unintentional but still will alert them to the situation — if they think they should intervene they will likely mention that.

      That is also a tact you could take if you are comfortable directly confronting the situation. “Hey, I know you aren’t trying to ostracize me for not having kids, but it feels that way some times. Can we tone down both the kids talk and the comments that feel passive aggressive about me not having kids? I’m really invested in the work our team does, and sometimes these conversations/comments make me feel like y’all don’t think of me as part of the team for something that has nothing to do with our work environment, and that’s not cool.”

      Good luck.

      Reply ↓
      1. Annony*

        For career development stuff, I would start by just asking for it and use the receptionist as an example rather than a comparison. “I’m really hoping to focus more on career development this year. I noticed you are looking into X and Y for Receptionist and I was wondering if there are similar opportunities for me.”

        Reply ↓
    9. Donkey Hotey*

      If it counts for anything, I’m child free and I don’t watch much TV either, so it’s not exclusively a function of having/ not having kids.

      Reply ↓
      1. HSE Compliance*

        Also childfree. We don’t have cable. This confuses the heck out of people.

        And I’ve been in offices before where Being A Mother was a huge topic of conversation. A more normal office will have it be occasional and still be inclusive. OP, your office sounds pretty far off the sanity cliff. It’s really weird how pointed they’re being about it. Definitely make a point of asking for more development opportunities, but keep a close eye on whether you’re being cut out of other activities.

        Reply ↓
    10. Excel Gardener*

      No advice but solidarity. I’ve definitely experienced coworkers who are parents making comments that implicitly or explicitly idealize my single life. Personally, as someone who is single but wants to find a long-term partner and have kids, I find it a bit grating when people act like it’s so nice to be single and have all this free time (sometimes it is nice! sometimes it’s also very lonely though, friends don’t meet the same needs a partner or having kids does).

      Reply ↓
    11. Dandylions*

      TLDR; Chances are high this isn’t malicious. It’s unintentional due to their current life stage, and the more you can internalize that and speak up about your hobbies when they are looking your way the better off you will be.

      Well TBF to your manager, you didn’t mention how long anyone’s been on the team. So it could be she knows more that the admin can develope on because she’s worked longer.

      I agree with others that you need to advocate for yourself about development opportunities.

      I also agree with the others saying that this isn’t pointed like you feel it it. As a mom of an under 3 I can tell you it’s all encompassing. Like I took a coworker out to lunch with the explicit goal to limit kid talk and focus on work stuff with her. We talked about work for 10 minutes and breastfeeding and sleep routines the rest of it. It’s just so all consuming your brain kind of loses it’s memory of hobbies in the before years.

      If it makes you feel any better I actually think everyone looking at you during the “What did I do with all that free time!” was an invitation to talk about yourself. Especially if everyone on the team has young kids then they are extremely tired, dealing with rapid changes all the time they have to learn to adjust too, and just generally stressed because child everything right now sucks.

      Reply ↓
    12. Ellis Bell*

      Sometimes when there’s a lot of parent talk, it’s because there just happens to be a lot of parents, but this feels a bit different. 1) I’m getting a bit of a Children Are What You are Supposed To Do, To Be Normal yellow flag (only by watching out for further signs can you say if this is the case or not though). I’ve seen parents joke about not having any free time, but to then pointedly look at you as though they resent the choice they didn’t make is just really super odd. 2) It seems like their entire identity is about being parents and they don’t have any interest in anything else. Sure, they can shoot down the topic of one particular show, or of TV in general, but it sounds like they don’t have anything else to talk about, ever. (if they do, then scratch this point, but if they don’t…. They really don’t even remember their misspent, TV binging years of youth? Hmm). But this all pales in comparison to 3) Professional development and In Crowd status happens when you become officially preggers and therefore One Of Us. Definitely raise that you’re not seeing similar investment in your development and ask what you could do differently; if there is something they should be able to name it.

      Reply ↓
    13. Qwerty*

      Alternative framing: They have really leaned into each other as a support group and its sorta morphed into the The Thing they always talk about.

      Like, I can totally interpret the “everyone look at the non-parent” as “oops, New Hire does not have kids, that was awkward, Is she upset? Amused? Why is no one saying anything?” My experience is that humans are hyper awkward creatures who perform worse in a group.

      Even if that isn’t what’s going on, it feels like a safer take for your sanity. Are you ok with kid topics? Lean in! I had an awkward work environment where I was the only non-parent, only woman, and only non-lead (we had more leads than teams so I was just kinda extra). Everyone’s kids were exactly the same age because they got married the same year, had their first borns the same year (all boys), then second borns the same year (all girls). They were weird at first because they knew it was an awkward situation for me, but I dove in to the conversations about diapers and being tired all the time until it wasn’t awkward. Should it have landed on me? Probably not but they certainly weren’t going to fix it. Alternatively, lean in to be the non-parent. Respond to “no time for Breaking Bad” with a joke about how the kids can watch it alongside them (only works for something obvious non-kid like your example) or “wish I had free time” with “yeah, its great, I knit a sweater this weekend”.

      Reply ↓
    14. Frankie Bergstein*

      I worked in an office like this once! It did a number on me. I honestly think it was emblematic of several different things — I was a lot more work oriented at work vs. wanting to spend meetings chitchatting. I also found my colleagues were underperforming. They showed up to meetings unprepared, did not do any work (or did the bare minimum) which meant it fell to me — so it was part of an overall work environment that was a poor fit. Overall, I felt really lonely at the end of each work day. I changed jobs to place that is more work-oriented. We talk about work at work. We talk about our personal lives too, but it’s not at the center of every conversation. It’s more inclusive. My mental health is much, much better. I feel like I’m part of a bigger mission rather than lonely.

      Reply ↓
  11. Kimmy Schmidt*

    Fellow academic librarians (and academics more broadly) – how are we holding up?

    I’m exhausted and have taken on too much work this semester, but I’m mostly frustrated with myself for taking on increased roles in shared governance. I had hopes to make some positive changes, but I’m just bogged down in procedure and other people’s insistence that they must talk about all things in all circumstances. We have made progress on exactly zero things so far.

    On the plus side, I’ve had some of my best interactions with students. They’re asking great questions, they’re interested in our resources, they seem to care about their education in a way I haven’t seen since before Covid.

    Reply ↓
    1. Nonanon*

      I’m just glad to hear you’re having good interactions with students; I got used to the “kids these days, gen Z can’t do anything” rhetoric, and like…. that discussion has been going on for ages, you’re just replacing written word with iPhones, so it’s great to hear positive stories about them ACTUALLY being curious and caring about education.

      Reply ↓
    2. oh so tired*

      I am on the tech services side of academic librarians and just. Whew. Also exhausted by the semester, but for once it isn’t because of student employees or actual work….it’s because of a problem employee I manage. They do not follow any instructions, and are of the opinion that their way is the best way….when really it goes against all professional standards, and has gotten them more complaints from people outside of our department than literally the rest of the people who have ever worked in the department combined. I trust them less than I trust student employees right now, to be honest. So that’s exhausting on a different level than usual.

      They’re on their last chance before a PIP, and honestly, I know we’re supposed to be rooting for people to pass their PIPs, but they are such an energy vampire in addition to everyone else, that I can’t help but cross my fingers that they dig their own grave and don’t pass the PIP.

      Reply ↓
    3. Pam Adams*

      Academic advising here- exhausted. I spent the summer between orientation and last year’s freshmen who didn’t adjust well and were in academic difficulties.

      Reply ↓
    4. Princess Peach*

      I’m an academic librarian in currently popular field and support students & teaching faculty in departments that our university administration really likes. My experience seems to be very different from the front-facing librarians in more traditional and/or less career-oriented fields, and definitely different from the back end people handling systems, metadata, etc.
      The different treatment rightfully causes resentment, and that seems likely to grow.

      The insistence on talking about all the things in all the circumstances and then making zero progress is definitely an issue here too. Maybe we’re colleagues, haha.

      The students are either fantastic and wonderfully engaged or else deeply apathetic and wholly uninterested in learning. I have an informal theory on what causes that beyond the general state of the world. I was part of the generation told, “Go to college if you don’t want to flip burgers for the rest of your life!” So I went to college, and then 2008 happened. I had a humanities field BA and really struggled for a while, but I saw friends in engineering, computer science, and medicine do quite well for themselves.

      I suspect many people had that experience and told their kids and niblings to pursue STEM degrees. Now, the Gen Z kids are buying into a variation of the same lie. “Get a STEM degree if you want to make any real money!” That’s not any more accurate than the burger thing the Millennials got, but it’s led to a lot of people pursuing degrees they have no interest in or aptitude for. The ones who want to be there are great, but the ones going deep into a debt for a future they don’t want are very unhappy and checked out.

      Reply ↓
  12. Less Bread More Taxes*

    I’m severly underperforming in my new role – how do I behave in team meetings?

    I’m normally a pretty extroverted and bubbly person at work. I enjoy getting to know my coworkers, and I enjoy spending a minute or two discussing something other than work before team meetings. However, I feel like that kind of behavior is inappropriate when I’m underperforming as badly as I am.

    I started this role a few months ago, and my manager and I have been working on my performance, but he’s rightfully not happy with me. I won’t waste time with specifics, but I’m really trying, and during one-on-ones, I am serious and humble. But during team meetings, where everyone else is pretty relaxed and jovial, I don’t know how to act. Maybe I’m overthinking it, but I feel like if I let loose, my manager is going to think I don’t understand how serious my underperformance is. I also feel horribly guilty for even smiling during team meetings because I feel like I’m not taking my lack of work seriously. It also feels horrible being in a setting where it’s obvious everyone else is having a good time and performing well besides me.

    How do I mentally manage this? Anyone have any anecdotes or advice to share?

    Reply ↓
    1. Nicosloanica*

      Oh, this sounds really tough, I’m sorry. Honestly since it sounds like there’s a lot of transparency in the situation, could you flag this for your manager? “I know the team is light hearted during meetings, but I don’t want you to think I’m not taking this feedback very seriously,” or something …?

      Reply ↓
    2. Tio*

      A team meeting is a place to be friendly and pleasant. I wouldn’t think it’s weird for a report to be friendly and pleasant in a team meeting even if they were underperforming – honestly I’d rather have that than them sitting there like a raincloud all somberly and making people feel off.

      Now if you’re going for, like, life-of-the-party level outgoing, that might be a little over the top.

      Reply ↓
    3. Goddess47*

      Since it’s a team meeting and (I assume) your manager is present, maybe you could take on a role that makes you focus on the meeting instead of the non-work discussions. You could volunteer to take notes, organize the agenda, (I’m thinking making coffee/tea would not be a good option), or something that lets you interact with some others but lets you say, “Good to see you. We can talk later because I need to do X.”

      It lets you step up your performance and show your work ethic without cutting off your team members.

      And everyone else may not be performing well, they’re just better at covering it up.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    4. EngGirl*

      I think the biggest thing is to think about what extroverted and bubbly looks like for you. You can be those things and also be serious. One of my favorite coworkers ever was an incredibly warm, enthusiastic person who also got her work done and done well.

      But if extroverted and bubbly on you looks like delaying meetings with side chatter or making jokes/comments that are of the “Ugh Mondays” or “TGIF” variety I would try to curb that kind of thing.

      I had a direct report on a PIP come in three hours late one day and when I asked him what had happened he said he’d partied too hard the night before and laughed about it. We had to have a conversation about understanding the seriousness of the situation.

      Reply ↓
    5. I Can't Even*

      It can be hard to remember that our self-worth is not tied to our work or our output. Having small talk before a meeting is professionally normal, spending time chatting outside of meetings maybe not so much when you have a lot of work that you need to get done.

      Reply ↓
    6. ecnaseener*

      I understand the desire not to joke about the work itself, or at least the parts you’re doing poorly on. But on the flip side, I worry that being the only serious one in the room could read as sulking. So at minimum I’d say smile at others’ jokes and join in when chitchat is happening.

      Reply ↓
  13. Lame Duck*

    I work for a nonprofit that is in the process of closing. However, nonprofits can take a long time to close, even a year or more, and the right grant could change the trajectory. However, I’m trying to leave and expecting I’ll be let go in February if I don’t quit first. The mission of the org is good, just too niche IMO. The issue is, we still have a lot of needs as we wind down, and I’ve really lost motivation to work weekends/evenings knowing that I’m going to be out of a job soon. I do still care about the work, and I want to end things on good terms and have a good reference, but I don’t want to lose my own vacation being called back in to put out fires, or handle things over the weekend in the hopes of that big grant (which I don’t think is super realistic). What’s the right balance here, and how can I express it diplomatically when I decline to go above and beyond right now?

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      “I’m sorry, I can’t cancel my plans for this.” That’s it. If you can sense some of these fires coming, maybe do what you can to stress in advance that you won’t be available so the work can get done (or at least be in a place where anyone can take it over the finish line) before it becomes an issue. But it’s okay to set work/life boundaries. And if you get pushback for that because you haven’t before, you can either explain that you’ve realized it’s not healthy or just stick to “I’m sorry; I really, really can’t this time.”

      Reply ↓
    2. A non-mouse*

      It sounds like there is some stuff going on in life right now that makes working nights/weekends/during vacation unfeasible for the foreseeable future. That the life stuff happens to be you deciding to hold a firmer boundary is besides the point.

      Reply ↓
    3. I Can't Even*

      They are closing, what is the worst that happens if you dont do extra unpaid work? Fire you? This is going to happen anyway. Work your wage, do your hours no more, no less.

      Reply ↓
    4. Kitten*

      I’m have 17 years in leadership in a nonprofit and it should not be the norm to work nights and weekends. Don’t do it for a failing organization and just tell people you are setting limits. Your 40 hours (35 really) and leave. This expectation is not ok.

      Reply ↓
  15. Compliments*

    I am coming to the end of an 18 month stint on a project which I have, um, smashed. It had earned $7k in 18 months when I started, and nobody was speaking to anyone. In the 18 months I’ve been leading it, we’ve brought in $250k. I did this through things that seemed stunningly obvious to me like, “what if we we had a marketing strategy” and “suppose I ask the stakeholders what they want” but since this hasn’t been done before, everyone thinks I’m an absolute genius.

    So my question is: what’s a gracious way to handle compliments?! Ive usually been a solid colleague, well-liked by immediate peers and considered reliable by management. I’ve never been in a situation where people are stopping meetings to go, “what you’ve achieved is absolutely outstanding” and I don’t really know what to do with myself! I’m mostly kind of smiling and quickly changing the subject. If it was obviously a team effort, I would say that, but I was really the only person directly working on it, so it doesn’t really ring true! So— what do I do instead?

    Reply ↓
    1. NaoNao*

      If you can credit anyone who helped, I think this is a really gracious way to go–“Oh, I have to credit so and so as well, they really helped out with X”. If you did it all by yourself, maybe offering to share tips and best practices–like “oh, anytime you want to collab, I’m here” or something.
      Leaving all that aside, I’d go with either a “thanks so much!” and then a “make sure you let my boss know” if you’re friendly or a casual workplace and that type of positive feedback would make a difference.

      Reply ↓
      1. A non-mouse*

        +1 to this – when you can, give shout-outs to whoever helped, especially if the helper works with the person making the comments. This way some of the accolades splash onto the others involved in the process, and it incentivizes those folks want to work with you again in the future.

        Other options:
        – “Thanks! I’m looking forward to what this project delivers going forward.”
        – “Thanks! It was a pleasure working with the team, and everyone should be happy with what we accomplished.”
        – “Thanks! I’m glad we were able to meet and exceed the stakeholder expectations!”
        – “Thanks! I have some ideas on where we can go from here and I’m excited for the future of this project.”

        Reply ↓
    2. Tio*

      “Thank you! I’ve been really excited to be able to use my skills so effectively here and have really enjoyed bringing this to life! I’m excited to see where this goes from here!”

      Don’t oversell – you don’t want to set expectations too high – but happiness and “I’m glad to do this” vibes get the best response.

      Reply ↓
    3. T. Wanderer*

      Some sort of canned thanks+deflection? “Thank you, I’m glad we’ve had such great results/it’s been a fantastic experience on this project! Back to topic…”

      Reply ↓
    4. Pomegranates*

      “Thank you, I’m happy to see how well it has worked out.” or “Thank you, I’m really proud of this.”

      Essentially, thank them, low key acknowledge that you are happy with the work too, and move on.

      Reply ↓
    5. Hlao-roo*

      Say “thank you!” If you want, you can say “thank you” and then move on with a subject change.

      If feel like their compliments deserve a little more before you change the subject, you can try:

      “Thank you! I’ve documented some of the most successful strategies so our future projects can be just as successful. [subject change]”

      “Thank you! I’m glad the project turned out to be so successful! [subject change]”

      Reply ↓
    6. spcepickle*

      If you are female – practice saying thank you!
      We (females) are socialized to undersell ourselves and share the credit. Sometimes this is great and I think part of what make many of us good managers. But there are times like this when you did smash it and it needs to be made obvious how well you did.
      When someone compliments you about this great achievement say – Thank you it has been a great project, or thank you it has been worth all the hard work, or thank you I am really proud of what has been accomplished.
      There is no need to deflect here – you did something that others could not do, let that moment land.

      Reply ↓
    7. Ostrich Herder*

      First of all – you really did smash the project, that’s amazing! Own it as much as you comfortably can, seriously.

      If you’re feeling like there needs to be more than just a “thanks” and a subject change, I wonder if you can cite the project itself, in the same way you might ordinarily share a little credit with the team. Something like “That’s so kind, thank you! It’s been great to work on a project with [advantage you leveraged to help absolutely crush it]!” Doesn’t devalue your skills, and in my line of work, at least, that kind of statement can get you put on projects with similar strengths in the future, and line you up for another home run.

      Reply ↓
    8. OtterB*

      If applicable and it doesn’t feel like toadying, you could share praise with the people who allowed you the flexibility to do things that hadn’t been done this way before.

      Reply ↓
    9. Excel Gardener*

      Don’t undersell yourself! Yes, these are “obvious” in some sense, but it’s actually not so easy to see the obvious and actually implement it when the culture of a project or business has operated another way for a long time. That requires big picture thought and follow-through that not everyone has.

      Reply ↓
    10. learnedthehardway*

      Accept the accolades graciously! Seriously – what is obvious to you is NOT obvious to other people. You deserve your success!!!

      If you can acknowledge other people’s contributions, definitely do so, but don’t underplay your own role in the success.

      Reply ↓
  16. mondaymoos*

    My friend offered to be my reference and… when they told me what they said to the hiring manager… it was a little too honest.

    For example, “her greatest strength is speaking truth to power and being straightforward, and it’s probably her greatest weakness too. It has caused her to run into problems with some leaders.”

    Am I wrong in thinking that references should sing your praises like you’re the best thing since sliced bread? And that if this is the person you chose to say nice things about you, what would other people in the organization have to say? Or am I overthinking this and this is a completely reasonable statement for a reference to give?

    Reply ↓
    1. pally*

      Personally, I would place greater weight on the veracity of the reference who gave the honest assessment. Someone who is too wonderful (according to their references) would have me wondering what they were hiding.

      I hired one of those “too good to be true” candidates once. Big mistake.

      Reply ↓
    2. Seven times*

      You are not wrong. Especially with this one. There are so many ways that this could be framed as the positive trait that it is.

      Is your reference a friend or a “work friend”? Because if it’s the former, it may matter less and you may be able to show that you understand the different dynamic in effect in a work environment.

      However, I think you’ve learned that this person is no longer a good reference.

      Reply ↓
    3. Nonanon*

      Honestly, I think that’s a reasonable statement; I personally find a candidate whose references ONLY have good things to say about them just as much of a red flag as those who don’t say anything good about them. Interviews ask about strengths and weaknesses, and if you’re good you include how you’re improving on your weakness. I would expect a reference to do something similar.
      In your example, I would have left off the “problems with leadership” bit, and resolve with something like “It does sometimes cause issues with coworkers, and she resolves them by allowing coworkers to be clear, honest, and straightforward with her as well.”

      Reply ↓
      1. Seven times*

        Getting that balance is the job of a good hiring official/reference checker. Answering in an honest way that still highlights the candidates strengths is the job of a good reference.

        This reference didn’t show the judgement that an applicant should be looking for.

        Reply ↓
    5. Dust Bunny*

      I think this is weirdly phrased but I don’t think that the point of references is to make you look as good as possible–the point is to give your next prospective employer some idea of you as an employee. That’s why you don’t ask just anyone to be your reference.

      Reply ↓
      1. mondaymoos*

        Well, yes, the “purpose” of a reference from the employer’s side is to find out about their employee. But from my end the “purpose” of choosing my references is for them to give me a glowing reference. Which, since we were recruiters together, I would think this person understood. I think it’s fair that I won’t use them as a reference moving forward, I just hope I haven’t derailed what sounded like was going to be an offer coming my way.

        Reply ↓
        1. Dust Bunny*

          That’s what I’m saying, though: Your expectations about this, as far as my experience goes, are not what it means to everyone else.

          Reply ↓
          1. Hiring Mgr*

            That’s not universal though, I feel the same as Mondaymoos – if someone is asking me to be a reference and I agree to it, I’m going to 100% make them look as good as possible.

            Reply ↓
        2. ampersand*

          Did you have other references? Any idea what they said?

          I would hope this one reference saying what she said wouldn’t be a deal breaker, especially if it was tempered by what your other references said.

          Reply ↓
          1. mondaymoos*

            I did give two other references, but none from this particular (prestigious) company (that probably is the reason I’m being looked at as a candidate). I did tell them if they needed additional references not to hesitate to reach out, though. And I will definitely be more blatant about my expectations if I have to find another.

            Reply ↓
    6. Hiring Mgr*

      Personally I won’t give a reference unless I can 100% recommend the person. If I’m expecting a reference call, I’ll usually ask the candidate beforehand if they want me to emphasize anything, avoid anything, etc.

      Reply ↓
      1. mondaymoos*

        The same from my end. If someone asks me for a reference and I wouldn’t enthusiastically recommend them, I explain to them that I’m not the best person for them to use. Which is why I was so shocked! But when we were chatting, he seemed so casual about what he said, I was second guessing my thought process.

        Reply ↓
    7. Joielle*

      Personally, I only list people as references who I am 100% certain will sing my praises like I’m the best thing since sliced bread, yeah. And when I’m called for a reference, I likewise sing my colleagues’ and friends’ praises like they’re the best thing since sliced bread. But I have close relationships with all of these people and they’ve been my mentors and friends throughout my career so we genuinely do think the absolute world of each other, professionally and personally.

      It sounds like this friend is not very diplomatic or well-attuned to business norms, if they thought that was a great thing to say in a reference call. There’s definitely a way to say the same thing in a way that would be a lot stronger. It’s not the worst comment on Earth but I would also be peeved if I were you!

      Reply ↓
    8. Yes And*

      I’m on the team that says that this is a normal and acceptable thing for a reference to say — *if it’s true.*

      Do you recognize yourself in this description? If so, I’d recommend keeping this reference, and also making this your answer if you’re asked about your weaknesses. Not only are you straightforward and honest, but you’re also self-aware!

      If you don’t recognize yourself in this description, is that a conversation you can have with your friend? Why do they perceive you this way if it isn’t true?

      Reply ↓
      1. mondaymoos*

        Oh, no, this is 100% true, and even something I touched on a bit during the interview. The position is for a DEI Officer for an organization that has never had a DEI program in the past, and I was pretty clear that support from leadership is the #1 factor in success for equity programs, and that I will call out problematic behaviors behind closed doors without hesitation.
        I’m just concerned that the way it was communicated implies that I don’t understand tact or that I will shut down someone in a public forum. Hopefully I’ll have an update next open thread…

        Reply ↓
        1. Yes And*

          In that context, I think the “negative” your reference gave isn’t even all that negative. You know better than I do that fearlessly speaking truth to power is a core requirement for a DEI officer, and 1,000 times so for a founding DEI officer. I see the “negative” your reference gave as the DEI equivalent of “her weakness is she’s too dedicated to her work.” And if the hiring team doesn’t see it that way, I have a hunch you don’t want this job.

          Good luck!

          Reply ↓
    9. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I would be totally fine if someone gave that assessment of me, personally. As a reference checker I want to get a better picture of the person, and I get a little uncomfy if no one can name a single weakness they have.

      Reply ↓
    10. Jane Bingley*

      So-called negative feedback can sometimes be a positive! I landed my current position because my old boss was honest about the fact that I struggle to work under a hierarchy and tend to go a bit rogue. My new boss was looking for exactly that trait – a high level of independence, even if it means making mistakes sometimes. Having your references be honest is a plus because it helps them decide whether you’ll be a good fit. Weaknesses aren’t evil, and different workplaces can accommodate different weaknesses and even make some of them into strengths.

      Reply ↓
    11. WantonSeedStitch*

      You can ask the friend what kind of impression they think that kind of reference would leave with the hiring manager. It might be that the hiring manager is looking for someone with the courage to speak up and possibly be a force for change. They might be fed up with a previous employee who never had their own ideas and just went along with what everyone else said.

      Reply ↓
    12. Irish Teacher.*

      I’ve never interviewed so probably take my answer with a large pinch of salt, but personally, I feel it would depend on the full context. I can imagine it being said in a way that indicates you are a strong dynamic person but perhaps a little tactless, which wouldn’t be the worst or in a way that indicates you are impossible to manager and I think how I took it would depend on what else they said. If they also gave examples of good work that you did that involved collaboration and spoke of your support for your teammates and so on, I’d be inclined to think, “OK, this person might be a little blunt but we all have our flaws” whereas if they hedged on how you got on with teammates or gave examples of successes that involved a lot of bulldozing, I’d be more likely to think, “pass.”

      Reply ↓
    13. Bess*

      I like it when people are more honest when I’m reference-checking. This would raise my attention, for sure, but I think it would depend on the tone. I’d check it against what showed up in the interview and make an interpretation. I think I’d ask for an example of a problem and judge the example as well.

      Maybe it does verge on being a little closer to mixed, though. I don’t think you want to change what they’ll say about you, but could ask to make sure it sounds more like they’re commenting on what they might see in you if hired, vs. “hey be careful.”

      Reply ↓
  17. Sugarholic Teacher*

    Hi all you lovely people, looking for some advice or maybe insight as to if I’m overreacting.

    I have a friend who’s the very outgoing type. She will strike up a conversation with anyone next to her on the train, at a theater, etc. She always tells them she’s a teacher. She probably knows that most people love young children and admire teachers, so it’s an easy way to spark conversation and positive attention. However, it is not technically true. She works at a private preschool/day care as a classroom aide. In public schools, we would call these paraprofessionals or paraeducators. There are people at her workplace called “early childhood teachers” or “lead teachers,” and her role is to assist them. She does not have a teaching license, she never studied or majored in education, and she never took any of the certification exams which are required to become a teacher.

    I myself am a teacher — a licensed one with a master’s degree — so it drives me batty that she talks about herself this way (especially to random strangers). Early childhood education is a very important field and I know how challenging her work is. I don’t mean to suggest otherwise. Her community is endlessly grateful for the long hours and dedication she puts in. But it rubs me the wrong way that she doesn’t just tell the truth that she is an aide/assistant. Her job is not subject to the same stressors that teachers’ are, such as state tests and continuing education requirements. I know most people here aren’t teachers, so the nuances may be lost here, but a paralegal wouldn’t call themselves a lawyer. A physician’s assistant would not call themselves a doctor.

    Something similar happens with another friend of mine. When people ask her “what do you do?” she tells them she’s a “writer.” But she’s actually unemployed, and what she writes is mostly fanfiction. Why not just be honest that she’s a stay-at-home dog mommy and writing is her hobby?

    I haven’t addressed this with them directly. I don’t want to upset them. Maybe they feel insecure about their credentials or experience. “Teacher friend” has a habit of exaggerating in other aspects of her life (she used to claim that she’d traveled to countries that she really hadn’t, or met celebrities that she really hadn’t), so this is probably just another manifestation of that. But I also don’t want to keep internally rolling my eyes every time I’m at a social event with them and the subject of work comes up.

    Does anyone else have friends who do this? Or if you found out someone you knew had been doing this, how would you handle it? Would you even bother to say anything?

    Reply ↓
    1. AnxietyRat*

      I would not personally address this with either friend. I would actually suggest you look internally as to why the job title she says bothers you so deeply. I assume that telling random people you meet that you are a “teacher” as opposed to clarifying “I am an aide, not a fully licensed/formally educated teacher” is just much easier for her sake, not some sort of stolen valor situation.

      Reply ↓
    2. Dust Bunny*

      I’d let it go. It’s annoying but unless they’re trying to get something (more than an ego boost) based on false qualifications, it doesn’t really matter.

      Reply ↓
    3. mondaymoos*

      I don’t see a problem with this, since going into a detailed explanation of the work they do and how it’s different from a fully credentialed professional is something most people are not interested in the context of a casual conversation. If they were doing this at a conference where the difference is already easily understood, I might feel differently.
      It seems like you’re irritated with this person because they have a habit of exaggerating all the time, not just in these instances and only you can decide if you want to continue that relationship. I would not mention it to them if you value their friendship.
      For the person who’s unemployed, no one wants to introduce themself that way or be the downer of the conversation. Introducing themselves as a writer is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, even if it’s “just fanfiction.” I might have a little more empathy for them.

      Reply ↓
      1. Pay no attention...*

        I agree with this. I liken telling strangers on a train she’s a teacher about the same level as me telling people who aren’t familiar with California that I’m from Los Angeles… like meh, they’ve never heard of the actual city I’m from so LA is close enough and they don’t need to know any more details.

        When I was a freelance graphic designer, I was really put out when people joked that meant unemployed, even if I wasn’t currently working with a client on a project. I’m a graphic designer by profession no matter where my computer is located or what project I’m working on, and I would think the same thing for a writer.

        Reply ↓
    4. Morgan Proctor*

      WHOA, hol up, you don’t get to police what people write and whether or not that makes them a writer! I’m a professional writer, like actually professional, 9-5 full time salaried writer job, and fanfic writers are absolutely writers!! SO many authors that you’ve probably heard of got their start in fanfic. But even if you never writer anything beyond fanfic, you’re still a writer!

      Likewise, you need to let this teacher thing go! Like, who cares? The only thing it’s hurting is your ego. Your “paraprofessional” friend calling themself a teacher doesn’t make you less of a teacher. This rant makes you seem like the insecure one. A paraeducator is still an educator. It’s right there in the word! Take Elsa’s advice and let it go.

      Reply ↓
    5. Nicosloanica*

      “Something similar happens with another friend of mine. When people ask her “what do you do?” she tells them she’s a “writer.” But she’s actually unemployed, and what she writes is mostly fanfiction. Why not just be honest that she’s a stay-at-home dog mommy and writing is her hobby? ” – wow. It sounds like you don’t like this person at all. It doesn’t take that much empathy to understand why someone might want to make as good an impression as they can when they first meet somebody and don’t feel compelled to put themselves in a bad light out of radical honesty. She probably does hope to be an author even if she currently isn’t having much traction. I can understand more being privately irked with the other one because that affects your standing more.

      Reply ↓
      1. Not friendly*

        LW doesn’t like either of these people, so why does she refer to them as friends, and why is she writing to AAM about them?

        Reply ↓
      2. Everything Bagel*

        Yeah, my jaw dropped when I got to the second friend. I would say the letter writer is not much of a friend at all making remarks like that.

        Reply ↓
        1. Everything Bagel*

          Ha, I just realized I referred to Sugarholic as the letter writer. Anyway, I hope you consider your relationships with these people and why you find what they say about themselves so troubling.

          Reply ↓
      3. Mad Harry Crewe*

        So, Sugarholic also thinks that people who garden on the weekends aren’t gardeners; people who go on long walks in nature aren’t hikers; and the only real bicyclists are bike messengers.

        You live in a strange world where the only valid claim to something is to be a professional at it. Most people aren’t professionals at most of the things they do. A fanfic writer is a writer, full stop. Someone involved in the teaching profession, including a paraeducator, is not stealing valor if they refer to themselves as a teacher in casual conversation with strangers.

        Reply ↓
    6. reallydoesnt matter*

      I wouldn’t care in the slightest. They’re saying it to random people they meet once and never again, why do they need to explain the nuances of their particular qualifications? I don’t understand why it bothers you, unless you need to feel superior because you have a master’s degree and continuing education requirements.

      Reply ↓
      1. Lisa*

        Agreed, this comes across as very judgmental. If the teacher friend is often lying or exaggerating, why are you still friends? That sounds like someone who I would consider to not have similar values to me and wouldn’t want to spend time with them. That said, saying you’re a “teacher” isn’t a crime just because you don’t have specific licenses. It’s not like claiming to be a doctor or lawyer where specific credentials and behaviors are required. Yes, states often have licenses and such, but it’s not to the same degree, where a doctor or lawyer practicing without being licensed can face criminal penalties. If part of her job is teaching kids, then she’s a teacher. It’s also easier to explain. People know what a paralegal or a physician’s assistant is, but a teacher’s aide may have duties that run the gamut from making copies to covering the class while the teacher is occupied with one student (or the other way around). If she’s doing the work, just because she doesn’t have the specific title or qualification doesn’t mean she doesn’t deserve to call herself a teacher.

        As for the writer, do you know how much grief people, especially women, can get when they say they’re a stay-at-home parent? Instead of having to have a whole conversation about feminism and how they can afford it and whether or not the other person could ever imagine doing it, they can just say “I’m a writer” and not have to get into their entire life story just to satisfy the overweening curiosity of a stranger. And again, she’s doing the work of writing. So she’s not getting paid for it. So what? Many authors don’t get paid, or don’t get paid for a long time. She’s still writing. That makes her a writer.

        I hope this commentor takes some time to do some reflection on why they are so inclined to judge others and not try to understand why someone in that position might say or do something in the way they are, rather than feeling superior about it.

        Reply ↓
    7. bamcheeks*

      I would really push back on the idea that you can only say you’re a writer if you earn money from writing! Your friend writes and enjoys writing: she doesn’t owe a detailed tax return to anyone she’s chatting to casually.

      Reply ↓
      1. 900' Jesus crossing*

        ^Thank you bamcheeks.

        Sugarholic Teacher, I think you are overreacting a little bit. People you just met don’t need to know your exact job title, especially when that may cause confusion to the average person on the street.

        Reply ↓
      2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        Yes! She writes, maybe even does it fulltime. That means she is a writer. It can take years before a writer gets published and starts to make money.

        Reply ↓
      3. Scholarly Publisher*

        One of my favorite (and sadly deceased) writers never professionally published anything that I know of. The fact that her available work is all fanfic and that her day job was lawyer doesn’t change the fact that she was a writer.

        Reply ↓
    8. Nixologist*

      lol.
      leave these people alone. why is it your job to cut everyone down to size? especially if this primarily comes up in surface level interactions with strangers. I often do not give strangers a resume-accurate level of my work history while making small talk. this does not seem to rise to the level of stolen valor.
      has it occured to you that maybe you don’t like your friends very much?

      Reply ↓
    9. EngGirl*

      Yeah, I’d let this one go. I think the difference between the doctor/lawyer parallel and this situation is that there’s a ton of shows about doctors and lawyers so people are more familiar with the support staff in those profession.

      If she’s with preschoolers she’s probably also referred to as a teacher all day my students and parents since that’s easier for little kids to understand.

      To me this is just a matter of shortening her profession down the same way I say I’m an engineer not my full drawn out job description.

      Reply ↓
      1. ampersand*

        Exactly—preschool teachers are called teachers for the sake of brevity, for everyone involved.

        I think if you truly like someone you overlook things like this. You may internally roll your eyes when they say they’re a teacher, but it doesn’t rise to BEC levels. And if you don’t really like them, this sort of behavior becomes super grating.

        Reply ↓
    10. Glazed Donut*

      As a former teacher, I’d let it go. She’s likely saying she’s a teacher because that’s easier than saying “oh, I’m an early education classroom aide!” – more people can quickly understand ‘teacher’ than the longer title. As you stated, the general public doesn’t know a whole lot about the differences, so I don’t think she’s misrepresenting herself to strangers in public. I do think it’s odd you are so bothered by this.
      Sounds like you may have more legit gripes about the other claims (traveling, etc) and should focus on those if they bother you so much – but otherwise maybe keep your distance and interact with her less.

      Reply ↓
    11. Elsewise*

      Honestly, I feel like you’re taking it too personally. Your “teacher” friend tells lies that make her sound more interesting. Because those lies intersect with your real life, you’re feeling like it reflects on you, but in reality, her claiming to be a teacher doesn’t take away from your education any more than her claiming to be friends with Angelina Jolie takes away from people who know her in real life. Given that this is such a broad pattern outside of her work life, do you think saying anything is going to change her?

      As for your other friend, I get the sense that you’re letting your resentment over “teacher” friend bleed into that relationship. You sound pretty dismissive of her (“stay at home dog mommy?” really, you think she wants to introduce herself that way?) and what she does. It sounds like she’s unemployed and grasping at a hobby that sounds like a real job to answer an awkward question. Instead of judging her, why not try building her up?

      My other question, which might not be the advice you’re looking for: why are you hanging out with these people? You don’t seem to like either of them very much, and it sounds like interacting with them is making social events difficult for you. Is this just one issue that you’re at a BEC stage with, or is it time to find new friends?

      Reply ↓
    12. Ashley*

      In conversations with strangers or people I won’t generally interact with regularly, I would definitely be describing myself as a teacher because going into details isn’t that important. Now if she doesn’t clarify if we start becoming friends and I explain I too am and a teacher and my role / classroom, that is annoying and I will internally judge her. For an unemployed person, I love the writer response because rarely do you want to be judged for not having a job and people are really judgy. (Think about all the random advice pregnant women get from strangers; sometimes it is easier not share the full reality with people you don’t know well.)

      Reply ↓
    13. Hlao-roo*

      Eh, I get your frustration with this but I think this is something to let go. I have misrepresented certain things for the sake of conversational ease. For example, I see a physician’s assistant for my medical check-ups. I say I’m going to “the doctor’s” and “my doctor told me to XYZ” because it’s easier to say than “I’m going to see my physician’s assistant” and “physician’s assistant told me to XYZ.” I don’t think it harms anyone and it makes the conversation flow better.

      If she wants to have conversations that are surface level focused on working with kids (“kids are cute!” “what ages do you teach?” and similar), and not deep conversations about the educational system (“as an aide, my qualifications are ABC and my job description is DEF. The teachers handle XYZ”) then I can understand why she says “teacher” and not “aide” or “paraprofessional” or whatever is more accurate.

      As for your unemployed friend, she may want to avoid all the “shoulds” people tend to spout when they hear someone is unemployed. “You should apply here,” “you should do a coding bootcamp,” etc.

      Reply ↓
    14. Joielle*

      I have a sister in law who’s a phlebotomist but tells people she’s a nurse. I just roll my eyes internally and let it go. (And disregard her unsolicited medical advice.)

      Reply ↓
      1. WellRed*

        This is the way! And, as a professional writer currently juggling multiple things I couldn’t care less to write about, I’m definitely rolling my eyes at that example.

        Reply ↓
    15. illuminate*

      Is “[topic] eating crackers” a thing? If you like these people and count them as friends, I would try to let it go when they talk about work. It may be irritating to you, but unless they’re getting into a deep discussion about work and what it entails, I don’t think it’s that important to correct them, in private or in public.

      Reply ↓
    16. MsM*

      As someone whose job title literally contains the word “writer” and also dabbles in a bit of fanfiction in their spare time, I’m perfectly happy to count Friend 2 as a colleague. I’m more sympathetic to your frustration over Friend 1, but I’m sorry to tell you that most people are not thinking about your certifications when they decide whether someone who works with children in a professional setting is a “real” teacher or not, and you probably should focus on addressing the frustrations that are making you upset about not getting proper credit to the best of your ability rather than taking it out on her.

      Reply ↓
    17. Not A Manager*

      You seem really invested in what strangers think about your friends’ professions. How is this situation harming anyone, or affecting you in any way?

      Reply ↓
    18. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I think you are too invested in what your friends label themselves and are too judgmental and particular . The general public is going to understand a label as teacher or preschool teacher rather than some other preschool label. Heck I am and administrative assistant and I ran into a guy I knew in college and he didn’t even know what an administrative assistant was! (and this guy is in his 30s same as me!). So she may have just found a way how to explain what she does in an easier to understand way.

      Your friend is a writer. Even if she doesn’t get paid she is a writer. As someone who also writes it drives us bonkers when people say that it’s just a hobby. Some people write for several hours a day and treat it like a full time job. Maybe she does just write fanfiction, or maybe she writes other things and just hasn’t told you. You can be an unpublished writer. It is HARD work. Also if she is unemployed she may be looking for work in the writing field. There is also a lot of negative view points about people who are unemployed or stay at home wives/husbands. She may tell people she is a writer so she doesn’t get looked down at.

      In both cases it is not your business to correct your friends.

      Reply ↓
    19. RM*

      Yeah, this is a little weird since she could just say “I work at a daycare” or “I work with pre-schoolers” or “I work in the toddler room at XYZ school”. These are basically what I said when I was an aide. There’s no need to say she’s a teacher for conversational ease with folks. I don’t think you can really do anything about it. It’s just going to come across as petty. I think she’s probably giving herself a more “official” title because it feels like it matches up with how seriously she takes her job. Also, you can get a degree in early childhood education but “teacher” is not a regulated job title in the same way K-12 is. There are probably quite a few lead teachers who were promoted to from aide due to their experience/skills only.

      Reply ↓
    20. Angstrom*

      Is who you are and how you earn a living the same thing?
      I mean, I might BE an engineer and be working as a bike mechanic.

      Reply ↓
    21. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      You are taking this too personally. Your friends are allowed to identify themselves in the way they choose, they aren’t committing any moral transgressions by doing so, and your gatekeeping will not be welcome if you voice it to them.

      Reply ↓
    22. anotherfan*

      I can’t address the teacher issue — sometimes people use a common generic word because it’s easier to make connections, and then get more specific later in a conversation. If she has a habit of exaggerating her importance, then I think you won’t get much traction bringing it up, but ymmv. It’s a her problem, you don’t really have to warn unfamiliar people on a train that she exaggerates.

      But I would like to comment on the writer thing. Regardless of your personal concern with stolen valor, you may have to expand your parameters when it comes to writing. Fan fic is a range; Shades of Grey, for instance, was Twilight fan fic and is/was a very successful franchise. If she’s writing stuff and selling it or has an audience, she’s a writer. I’ve called myself a writer for years — I’m a journalist, I write every day. I’ve made a living at it for nearly 50 years. I am not, however, a novelist. If you believe that only novelists are permitted to call themselves a ‘writer’ you may be shortselling an entire profession.

      Reply ↓
      1. Donkey Hotey*

        Agreed. I’ve been a career tech writer for decades and finished my first fiction script earlier this year. The idea that the script somehow “makes me a writer” is absurd.

        (and to be clear, I’m not saying that’s what you suggested)

        Reply ↓
        1. anotherfan*

          no, writing is writing. friend of mine has spent years writing a novel — he’s still a writer even though nobody has seen anything but a draft or two. I was trying to explain (apparently poorly) that just because someone isn’t a best-selling novelist, they can still be ‘a writer.’

          Reply ↓
    23. Donkey Hotey*

      She can’t be a writer because she’s unemployed? LOL. Let me tell you something about writers…
      At the same time, I understand a little of your frustration about the other friend using “teacher” as conversational shorthand compared to your degree and credentialed definition of teacher. But it’s conversational shorthand. No one is going to rush up to her on the street with a teaching emergency.

      Reply ↓
    24. jenny*

      It’s annoying, but there’s really nothing you can do. Unless you really think you can jump in every time she mentions it and say “she’s not a real teacher”.

      If people care about what your friend is telling them, they’ll likely ask questions and figure out that she’s an assistant/aide. It’s a role your eyes situation.

      Reply ↓
    25. Associate*

      I’ve worked for decades in libraries but I am not a “librarian.” I’ve never claimed to be a librarian, but when asked what I do, I tell people “I work in a library.” 99% of them then call me a librarian. Even other librarians. Sometimes I use the internal job description, but all people hear is “library,” and they call me a librarian. So I get why people do this. It’s just easier!

      Reply ↓
    26. RagingADHD*

      I think you have an issue with classifying and assigning value to people according to their career title rather than getting to know them for their passions and pastimes. They are telling new social acquaintances what they care about and how they spend their time, so they can get to know these people better and find common ground. Not reciting a resume to get approval.

      Your teacher-friend refers to herself as a teacher because the children and their parents do. She is not a babysitter. She is not a nanny. Most people in the general public don’t know or care the difference between an early childhood “teacher” and “paraprofessional,” so why should she go into a longwinded explanation that neither side of the conversation cares about – only you, the bystander?

      Your writer friend writes. That is literally what “writer” means. If she said she was a gardener or a knitter would you have the same objection because it wasn’t her full time job?

      People are not their jobs and they are not valuable as humans because of a title, licensing, or accomplishments. It sounds like you are offended because you look down on these people you call friends and resent them acting as if they are your equals. Please do not “address this with them” because it is none of your business, and if you can’t get your head around treating them as your social equals on social occasions, maybe you should get a new set of friends. Perhaps you should spend some time with ones who look down on you, to see what it feels like.

      Reply ↓
    27. Seashell*

      When parents bring their kid to daycare, they probably say “here’s your teacher”, so teacher is easier for everyone to understand. If people are that interested, they’ll ask where she works and it will all be clear.

      Reply ↓
    28. tabloidtainted*

      I think “teacher” is just a simple shorthand that everyone can understand, so I wouldn’t be bothers by that.

      I do think it’s funny for someone to respond to a question about what they do [for work] by saying they’re a “writer,” if they write fanfiction as a hobby. I say this as someone who wrote a lot of fanfiction as a young adult.

      Reply ↓
      1. tabloidtainted*

        And I think folks are overly defensive because you mentioned fanfiction, but if I knit as a hobby, my response to, “What do you do for work?” is not going to be, “I’m a knitter.” There’s a difference between a hobby and a profession. There are many ways your profession can be writing, but fanfiction writing is not a profession.

        Reply ↓
    29. NaoNao*

      Wow people are being really harsh here, but I have to say I partly understand where you’re coming from in contrast to everyone being like lol let it go.

      I get that umbrage at “I’m a ‘writer’ because I write…something”–I’m a hobby writer as well but guess what? I would not introduce myself that way as I have a 9-5 and I’m self-published and I can reasonably assume that’s not what the majority of people would think of as a “writer” **as a job** which is how people are asking.

      I think you’re correct technically and linguistically that these people *are* using common understanding and connotation of words and use to kind of “skate by” with job titles that they aren’t 100% doing, like most people would think of “I’m a writer” as “I earn the bulk of or all of my money by writing and being published in some form” not “my hobby is writing”.

      If you ask someone what they “do” it generally means “how do you earn a living” and that’s where the “I’m a writer” thing falls apart for me too.

      On the reality side of it, it is a *touch* uncharitable to begrudge an unemployed down in the dumps friend from fluffing up their life a bit by “manifesting” their dream career so I’d just let them both go and privately eyeroll.

      Reply ↓
    30. Marian the Librarian*

      I agree with everyone else who’s saying this is just simpler than saying she’s a classroom aide when people ask what she does and potentially having to describe what that entails (and thinking she’s calling herself a teacher for the kudos from strangers is kind of a weird take). It’s just a shortcut to explain to laypeople roughly what her job is.

      I’m a librarian, a manager, and, like you, have a Master’s in my field (required for most folks professionally called “librarians”), and I call my coworkers “librarians” even if they’re technically paras, especially with the public, as in: “The librarian at the desk can help you with X,” “The librarian who hosts storytime on Fridays is Nancy.” I’d just try to let it roll off your back, if I were you.

      Reply ↓
    31. Lifelong student*

      I have been an instructor at three post high school entities. Two on a part time basis and one full time. Sometimes two at the same time. I do not have an education degree but I do have professional certifcation in my field and a master’s degree. I think I can say I was a teacher! Is that okay, snob?

      Reply ↓
    32. Sugarholic Teacher*

      Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply. I certainly didn’t expect to be accused of not liking my friends, LOL. They just have annoying habits and behaviors, like anyone does. The overwhelming consensus seems to be say nothing to them, so I’ll just keep it to myself.

      For the sake of clearing up some misunderstandings in the comments: writer friend is not looking for a job. I know writing can be real work, I’ve written several books myself and dabbled in fanfiction when I was young; but as adults, we all understand what it means when someone asks “What do you do.” It surprised me the first time I heard her say “I’m a writer,” rather than one of the many more commonly used euphemisms, such as “I’m between jobs” or “I’m looking for something in X field” or “I’m in a program studying X.” (She went to grad school but not for writing/English/etc.) But I also don’t see her in person very often, so it’s not a big deal in the end.

      This was the first time I’ve heard the phrase “stolen valor.” So I guess that’s the next thing I’m off to google.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        But you’re the one adding the “in exchange for money” assumption to the question. “What do you do” could just as easily end “…with your time?” She spends her time writing, why is that the wrong answer in your mind?

        I read a really good essay a few years ago that pointed out how presumptive the “what do you do [for work]?” question is. You’re making a pretty specific demand for information, with a whole lot of baggage about class and what kind of answers are acceptable: lawyer, teacher, engineer… not custodian. Not unemployed. Not grocery stocker. Someone asking that question assumes that everyone works a job that carries no stigma, and that’s simply not true.

        “How do you spend your time?” is a question that allows someone a lot more flexibility and choice in how they present themselves, what information they share, and I’m certainly not going to condemn your friend for choosing to answer the politer question when offered a choice.

        Reply ↓
      2. Hlao-roo*

        I’m glad you asked! I also have friends I like a lot who have behaviors I find confusing/annoying, and I’m of the opinion that it’s good to check with someone (family member, different friend, AAM open thread) if it’s a “say something” situation or a “say nothing” situation.

        Also, I didn’t say this explicitly in my first comment, but I too would be surprised if I had a not working (whether by choice or not by choice) friend who answered “what do you do” with “I’m a writer.” It does feel like a technically-correct-but-misleading answer. (She does write and is therefore a writer, but the questioner will assume she makes a living by writing, which isn’t true.) I don’t think it’s worth saying anything to her, but I did want to validate your surprise at her “I’m a writer” answer.

        Reply ↓
    33. learnedthehardway*

      I think you’re getting a lot of criticism here that isn’t warranted – esp. with the “teacher” friend who is really a “teacher’s aide”. There IS a real difference in the roles, the qualifications and the education. It IS aggravating that this person is acting as if she is a qualified teacher when she isn’t – especially when she’s falsely claiming qualifications that you actually have earned. And it seems this person has a habit of self-aggrandizement in other areas as well. This isn’t a situation where saying “I’m an X” is a helpful simplification, either, as when people with highly specialized roles tell you they’re a marketer or engineer, or whatever the closest analogue is to their position.

      I wouldn’t bother calling the person out on this but I would also roll my eyes internally.

      As for the “writer”, that sounds like a hobby, not a job. Self-identifying as a writer is less fraught, though, than claiming professional credentials/education/experience. So I would ignore it.

      Reply ↓
    34. Sandwich*

      What exactly bothers you about these two examples? These are social conversations, not interviews, so what actual difference does it make if someone says teacher vs paraprofessional? I’m a former teacher and this would not bother me at all.
      The only way I could see this being an actual issue is if either of them were misrepresenting themselves in a professional capacity, like the paraprofessional friend writing a teaching blog or the writer friend holding a workshop about being a professional writer. But casual conversation on a train or at a party? Not worth a second thought.

      Reply ↓
    35. Old Plant Woman*

      Retired IA Spec Ed. I have tried to avoid letting people think I’m a teacher because that tends to lead to questions about politics and budgets. Don’t want that because I’m a pretty happy person and want to stay that way. So I say I work in special education. So you’re a teacher? No. Assistant. What’s the difference? Teachers do too much paperwork. I get to spend my time with students. So you teach… way to much work.

      Reply ↓
  18. Emmeline*

    My field is technical writing and editing, and I’m employed full time but job hunting now in the US.

    I’m considering contracting jobs (would prefer the type where you are W2 employee for a contracting agency and they shop you around, not the independent type). It’s looking like the market is heavily slanted towards “start as a contractor and then we’ll hire you full time” instead of getting hired as an employee with a probation period.

    What should I look for when evaluating contracting agencies? My friend told me that unpaid mandatory furlough days around holidays are common, as are not getting sick leave. Any other “gotchas” to be aware of?

    Any advice appreciated!

    Reply ↓
    1. Procedure Publisher*

      I’ve done contract jobs. Most times you get no PTO and no paid holidays. They usually pay you per hour so make sure you know what hourly rate you are looking for.

      Reply ↓
  19. br_612*

    I mentioned this nutbar former coworker who dug through a broken glass container in the comment section yesterday about Lenora, the obnoxiously cheerful coworker expecting everyone to always have a smile on their face. Someone asked me to expand on it so . . . here we are.

    Setting: Government research lab
    Characters: Me – a postdoctoral researcher; Jane – a research assistant

    I’m only including highlights. Buckle up.

    – Our lab had 1 broken glass container. Totally normal. For whatever reason she was putting her used pipets (which were actually plastic, and like 15-18 inches long) in the broken glass container instead of in a regular cardboard box like we were explicitly told we could. One day I broke a piece of glass so naturally put it in the broken glass container. She dug through it, pulled out the broken plate, and left it on my bench with a note to get my own broken glass container. Like . . . what. You could’ve just . . . left the note (that’s still pretty weirdly territorial outside of lab environments I know, but labs are weird).
    – She hoarded the small styrofoam containers reagents were shipped in. HOARDED them. She had dozens and dozens. To the point they were blocking access to the chemical fume hood. Safety came in and told her she had to get rid of them and she proceeded to throw a tantrum at them. I was just standing there, pipet full of buffer in hand, with my jaw on the floor while she screamed and literally stomped her feet. Eventually safety left, but they came back after she left for the day and got rid of them. I was not there when she noticed (she worked 7-3 and I am NOT a morning person) but I bet it was intense.
    – I need to run some blots on the larger system (BioRad Criterion I think) and ordered the premade gels (I usually made my own but we didn’t have the plates or stand for the Criterion). When she realized I planned to use it, she hid the system. It was literally government property and she was hiding it in her office. I even told her I’d only use it on weekends when she wasn’t there and she refused. For this one I told my boss and the branch manager and they both claimed there was nothing they could do (bullcrap I say. Just go in her office and take it and tell her she cannot do that). She didn’t even use it that often! I only needed to use it a few times over the course of a month or two. Instead I had to redesign my experiment and the gels went to waste.
    – My tissue culture incubator died (it was ancient). I asked if I could use hers, which she used for a grand total of 1 month in the 3 years I was there (she mostly did animal work), for a few weeks until a replacement arrived and was calibrated and she yelled at me. So I had to use another lab’s, which meant having to carry a tray full of containers with cells growing in liquid in them that COULD NOT be contaminated through 3 doors (one of which required a key and not a key card) and down a hallway between the incubator and my hood. Thankfully I used flasks and not dishes, they’re harder to contaminate, especially if you tighten the lid before transport. When I asked the other lab about it all I had to say was “Jane” when they said “Doesn’t your lab have a second incubator I swore it did”. Everyone knew she was awful.
    – Eventually her tissue culture incubator broke because she wasn’t filling the water pan (the lack of humidity can damage the CO2 sensor). Guess who got stuck ordering her new one and setting it up because she refused to do so? Including filling the water jacket, which takes FOREVER and involves a step stool when the incubators are stacked like ours were.
    – Our CO2 piping for the incubators needed to be replaced, which thankfully maintenance/facilities does. And there was an issue. We were all standing there and the maintenance guy said he needed to hear it draw and asked if one of us could open an outer door of an incubator (they have double doors, the outer water jacketed one and an inner glass one). So I popped on a glove and opened the outer door, JUST the outer door, of hers. Because she didn’t have any cells in it and I had cells in mine. She walked over, opened both the outer and inner door of mine bare handed, and walked away. This happened in front of our boss who just looked at me like “What do you want me to do about it? You opened hers” Yes I opened just the outer door of her EMPTY incubator while wearing a glove, she opened mine all the way bare handed and could’ve ruined all the cells in there!

    It was that last one, combined with realizing while running a co-IP experiment that I’d rather run naked through blackberry brambles and then swim in the ocean to let the salt get all in those tiny scratches than run western blots on a weekly basis for the rest of my career that made me say “Yeah I’m not extending my contract another year and I am DEFINITELY looking at “alternative” careers”.

    So now I’m a medical writer. I never have to run a Western again, but I DO get to judge other people’s Westerns (what do you MEAN you didn’t use a loading control?????).

    Everyone knew Jane was awful. Apparently she’d gone through a few of the labs there and my boss was just supremely unwilling to do anything about her bad behavior, despite the fact she was treating core facilities people badly as well (like flow cytometry, microscopy, that kind of thing). The flow cytometry core stopped helping her at all. Like she could still sign up and use the equipment, but they wouldn’t go out of their way to help her do anything or troubleshoot unless it was something that would affect other users. Whereas I got all the help I ever asked for because I was nice and a little bit because they felt bad for me trapped with her.

    Reply ↓
    1. Nonanon*

      Jesus Christ that’s particularly bananapants even for research labs (let’s… not talk about my own passive aggressive research behavior), but this rang true:

      combined with realizing while running a co-IP experiment that I’d rather run naked through blackberry brambles and then swim in the ocean to let the salt get all in those tiny scratches than run western blots on a weekly basis

      I do not miss Westerns at all. I hope you enjoy judging other people’s Westerns, live the dream.

      Reply ↓
    2. Strive to Excel*

      Are you sure your coworker was a person and not a swarm of bees in a human suit?

      I’m just as flabbergasted as you at the glass bin. I was under the impression that the reason broken glass bins exist is to separate out the sharp pointy dangerous stuff with potential biohazards on it out so that the trash guy doesn’t get stabbed. Why would any person with *any* amount of lab experience willingly open it up and rummage through it??

      Your boss and manager sucked, as you’ve rightly identified. May their pillows always be warm.

      Reply ↓
    4. Lady Lessa*

      Thank you, and WOW. I can’t appreciate the details, that would have another biochemist screaming, but I can relate. Especially for folks NOT running controls, etc. (I just wish that some of my testing had decent controls, )

      Reply ↓
      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        Yeah, thanks for expanding. I saw your comment yesterday and the behavior was so weird that I couldn’t even parse what you meant about going through the broken glass container.

        Reply ↓
    5. PostalMixup*

      Why are academic labs so ridiculous? There was a woman in my dissertation lab who was so obsessive about potential RNase contamination that she’d glare at anyone who stood in her bay ungloved and without a lab coat. The lab down the hall from my postdoc lab had a postdoc that was so abrasive and difficult to work with that he drove away the wonderful tech who did literally all their wet work. I have found industry to be much more sane.

      Reply ↓
    6. ampersand*

      Omg. I have no words.

      I’m so curious where you worked—I don’t expect you to answer that!—but having worked with government labs before, this kind of doesn’t surprise me? Some of them seem totally fine, and then there are places like LANL and DOE. I could imagine either of them employing Jane and completely ignoring her antics.

      Reply ↓
    7. Darlingpants*

      You had to fill your own water jacket??? I guess it makes sense that they don’t want to ship it with the extra weight but yikes.

      Also yikes to everything else about your coworker. And congrats on getting out of western blots (I like running the SDS PAGE half but I hate the blotting steps).

      Reply ↓
    8. Nesprin*

      Lol congrats on hanging up your gel box and never touching another bit of nitrocellulouse!

      It’s amazing how ‘don’t be a jerk to support staff’ is memo that some folks never got.

      Reply ↓
    9. noncommittally anonymous*

      Good Grief. That PI is failing miserably. As someone who also runs a cell culture lab, I can’t imagine putting up with ANY of that, starting with her disposing of plastic pipettes in the sharps box!

      Our safety people would have had a FIT about us carrying cells through a hallway to get to another incubator. I can’t believe anyone actually expected you to do that.

      I keep saying that we need to include some management courses in Ph.D. programs. You get a Ph.D., then you’re expected to run a lab, manage budgets, and manage people with basically no preparation. You end up with people like this guy who can’t manage his way out of a paper sack.

      Don’t even get me started on the lack of training for teaching in Ph.D. programs.

      Reply ↓
      1. Lady Lessa*

        Last paragraph, as a former TA, I am standing up applauding. I was thrown in to students just a few years younger than I.

        Reply ↓
      2. br_612*

        Honestly still shocked my cells didn’t get contaminated carrying them through hallways and three doors. SHOCKED. I think my 5 years in marching brand really came in clutch there because I could roll step the whole way and you barely saw the liquid moving around (and no sloshing). Or even that the movement every few days didn’t mess up growth patterns. A friend in grad school had to keep her incubator on an air table because the vibrations in her lab made adherent cells grow in concentric circles. It was WILD. (Turned out an HVAC unit on the roof, her lab was on the top floor, had something unbalanced that was causing that area to shake a little. You didn’t really notice it as a human, but the cells and some other equipment sure did)

        The other lab totally would’ve let me use their hood, but I had some equipment in my tissue culture room that wasn’t easily transferrable, and they didn’t have room for it anyway.

        Reply ↓
  20. The Dude Abides*

    Is LinkedIn a necessary evil at this point?

    Given the news that came out re: AI scraping, I made the choice to close the account entirely. I barely used it, and most of my interactions with the platform were from recruiters shotgun-blasting job opportunities.

    It was also the only social media platform I still had an account on, so I can now say I have fully cut that cord.

    Reply ↓
    1. spcepickle*

      I do not use it all, I found it creepy when it first came out and was not interested at all.
      The only time this was a problem was when I hired someone from out of state who was straight out of school who got all worried he could not find me on linkin and worried I was trying to scam him. It worked itself out after a brief phone call.

      I say cut that cord.

      Reply ↓
    2. Elsewise*

      I need it because I frequently need to see other people’s information, and you can only do that with an account now. (Yes, I’m aware that’s creepy! I work in corporate fundraising and often have to do basics of prospect research myself.) The last time I used it was to say good luck to a coworker who got laid off while I was out sick, since I didn’t have any other contact information for him. Other than that, it seems to mostly be filled with people I worked with 10+ years ago shilling their consulting businesses and connection requests from empty profiles for people I’ve never heard of.

      Reply ↓
    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think it depends on what sector you’re in. A friend is in tech and I guess it’s important for the hiring he does, and was shocked when he found out that no one really cares in non-profits, the arts, etc. (At least not in my area.)

      Reply ↓
    5. JHunz*

      I got a lot of value out of it while I was last job-searching, but at this point the only reason not to delete my account is that I’d lose the connections I have with past colleagues on the platform. There’s just enough value in having those available if I need them for something that it’s the only thing holding me there.

      Reply ↓
      1. Bookworm*

        Connections with former colleagues is the ONLY reason I’ve not ditched LinkedIn myself. And thanks for the reminder to switch off the settings that don’t allow my data to be used for AI training.

        Reply ↓
    6. Hiring Mgr*

      In my experience it completely depends on your industry/role. I use it daily, and also have found my last 3 or 4 jobs through LI, so YMMV

      Reply ↓
    7. OtterB*

      I am in the process of retiring. I have a LinkedIn account that I created years ago. I don’t keep it up but if someone I interact with asks me to add them I do. I was thinking I would keep it because it does have occasional updates on people/projects I like, but as I was clearing out email subscriptions I realized most of the mail is from Linked In and is junk. So I will probably just delete it.

      Reply ↓
    8. Stuart Foote*

      I like it and I think it has to be a good thing to have my resume publicly available and easily searchable. I did create a burner account when I want to visit someone else’s LinkedIn…don’t need people to see I am checking them out.

      Reply ↓
    9. Taketombo*

      I contacted a former co-worker though it – one I hadn’t talked to in a decade and who was in a completely different department at OldJob – to see if OldJob would have any issues with mentioning the type of work I did there in an upcoming paper I’m writing. It was useful for that, and other than a bare-bones list of positions I don’t really have anything there for AI to scrape.

      Reply ↓
    10. In My Underdark Era*

      I’m really about to follow your lead on this one. it’s also the only social media I still have, and I wanted to just close it when I saw that post about AI scraping but still thought, “what if I don’t get a job because they can’t find me on LinkedIn?”

      but at this point, if the absence of a LinkedIn account is actually a consideration for a job posting, I may be willing to cut my losses. I’m not sure it demonstrates that great of judgment to use it as a screening tool in 2024.

      Reply ↓
    11. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      I had one job application that required a LinkedIn account during my last search (remote tech support position), and I sometimes find job postings there that I don’t elsewhere. I would otherwise prefer to delete the thing, especially since I think my Bachelor’s may be hurting me during my job search.

      Reply ↓
    13. Hillary*

      I use it daily (often for an hour plus) – it’s where I meet folks in my industry and make connections for my startup. It’s where I have almost 20 years of networking.

      The AI scraping sucks and I’m still annoyed that they launched quietly and made it opt out. But there isn’t a better place for me to make those connections.

      Reply ↓
  21. Ella Bee*

    Would be cool to do a “stories of when you had to work with a former bully” ask the readers-type thing. I feel like we’ve gotten a lot of questions about that and I know I certainly have a story lol

    Reply ↓
    2. Nemy*

      I remember at an internship in denying the job application of a grade school bully for an IT role he was very qualified for. I still smile thinking about how satisfying that was.

      Reply ↓
  22. Football fan*

    TL/DR: Has anyone participated in a training game/activity that they thought was helpful, fun, or interesting? Thanks!

    I am a lawyer who will be presenting on the Administrative Procedures Act (APA) to 30+ lawyers. I need to develop a game or activity (like Bingo, I guess) in a month. Has anyone participated in something like this (for any topic) that they felt was engaging? I’d love ideas. Thanks!

    Reply ↓
    1. Justin*

      I mean, I’m a trainer, so I would hope that I’ve created some.

      This may not apply for you, but one of my favorites I’ve ever designed was to work on active listening (these were customer service workers), I took half of them out of the room and told them what to do which was to listen intently to the story being told to them, and then when I gave a signal to become distracted, pull out their phones, look away, etc.

      The other people were told to share any compelling story that was a few minutes long.

      Everyone both cracked up and got the point.

      The point is to couch a valuable lesson in something creative and unexpected.

      Reply ↓
    2. Strive to Excel*

      Depends on how new this information is to your group. Is this brand new info? A refresher?

      If it’s brand new, or if it’s not brand new but there’s been some key changes, the classic teacher’s “follow along with this example and try to work out the answer” + partner discussion has been effective for me. Not small group discussion – specifically just with one other person. I find that much more engaging than a group activity.

      For more of a general refresher, I like tapping into the competitive streak with Kahoot! and similar. If you’re not familiar, it’s a timed competitive multiple choice quiz. You get more points for a fast answer but it must be a correct one. People race each other up a leaderboard as the quiz goes on.

      Reply ↓
      1. DivergentStitches*

        I second Kahoot – I’m not a competitive person at ALL but really enjoyed using it in work groups for some fun.

        Reply ↓
    3. Nesprin*

      Honestly, no- every training I’ve ever been in that tries to be fun tends to be longer, less informative and more groan inducing. If you’ve got 30 advanced professionals coming, I’d really suggest focusing on information quality, clarity, conciseness, and abundant breaks over ice breakers/games.

      Reply ↓
    4. Unkempt Flatware*

      I will never forget how pumped grown adults from all corners of my state and industry reacted to a game of Memory I made for each conference table. The participants could not sit with anyone they knew so I knew there would be forced awkward “getting to know you” stuff that most people hate. Instead, I made a memory game (you know, like the ones kids played with where they try to find matches on cards turned upside down?). Instead of just pictures they had to match, I used this as a sort of trivia game where they turned over the questions and tried to match to the answers.

      The real successful part with this is that I didn’t tell a single person to play this game with their table mates. I didn’t have to say, “okay go!” or tell them the rules. I simply allowed folks to settle in and suddenly they were playing together with strangers. And they were learning some critical pieces of information they needed to know via the trivia.

      I’ve now done it at almost every training/conference/pot luck I’ve had to organize.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hazel*

        I love this! I did an internal half-day training about municipal rules and we did a Jeopardy style quiz ( you can do it to assess knowledge before or confirm it after). It’s mostly a bit lighthearted/corny but enjoyable if you can get a bell/ buzzer they can hit to answer.
        If your aim is more serious testing of whether they’ve absorbed and can apply the rules then small group work on scenarios.
        If you have an hr/training dept they will instantly know a couple of activities to use – like teachers, they just know this stuff.
        Mostly try to move the training itself itself from content to understanding to application is what I was told. Not easy with these drier ‘you need to know these 6 rules’ trainings.

        Reply ↓
    5. Union*

      My legal research class has had a couple good ones, although they’re mostly about getting familiar with software:

      (1) Break into a bunch of teams, maybe 6-8. Put up a list of 16 sources (in this case, maybe provisions?). The teams snake draft which 2 sources they want to research (so Team 1 picks their first, Team 2 picks their first, …, Team 8 picks their first, Team 8 picks their second, Team 7 picks their second, …, Team 1 picks their second). Provide time for the actual research, then each group shares information from their two sources or provisions.

      (2) Scavenger hunt — this works better in person, although you could probably figure out a digital way. Prepare 8 clues, but only provide teams with 1 at first. When they think they have the answer, they come to you, and if they’re right, they get Clue #2. If they’re wrong, you can provide a hint. Subsequent clues might build on one another — Clue #4 might say “In the provision that was the answer to Clue #2, what agency is given responsibility for maintaining the Wombat Processing Form?”

      Reply ↓
    6. Hillary*

      We just did mad libs as a group with Slido. I’d never heard of the app before, it worked well to engage everyone. We were on zoom but it would also work in person with phones.

      Reply ↓
  23. How Much Bugging is Acceptable*

    I’m a new-ish (3.5 months) employee and SO confused about some things. Things like who do I include on this email, who approves this thing? Can you approve this thing now that I found Person? Person is super busy so they haven’t responded, but I really need approval.

    I’ve saved most of my questions for a weekly (if I can get fit in) meeting, to bring down the amount of times I stop by their office. But for things like “I need approval on this thing ASAP”, how much bugging is acceptable? I feel like my already very busy chain of command bosses are irritated with email reminders and drop-by’s to their office, but I know if I sent it out without their approval, I’d be in trouble. Help!

    Reply ↓
    1. EngGirl*

      Ask your manager or a more senior colleague in your area to walk you through this. This is a very common thing to need.

      Try to remember that your number 1 priority is potentially their number 10. It’s. It that they’re ignoring you, they just haven’t gotten to you yet. Make sure when you send the initial email you explain any relevant deadline information to them. For example “Hello, if you could please review and approve this by Tuesday so that I can get it submitted in time for the Thursday call with (insert highest ranking meeting attendee here) that would be appreciated.”

      Reply ↓
    2. spcepickle*

      I have almost 20 years of work experience and I still stop and question who I should be including on an email. So don’t feel bad about that one.

      For the rest of them – you need to find the secret power person in your office. There is always at least one, more than half that time it is your office’s administrative assistant. They are the people who truly understand how the office works and while they often don’t have the exact answer they always know who to talk to AND they will help you find the answer. It sounds like you are in your office physically so start asking just about everyone questions. They don’t need to be complex questions, but ask about how the scan feature on the copier worked, or if they know where this person sits, or even if they know who approves such and such thing. Pay attention to how people answer you, who gets up and walks around with you, who feels like an ally. Also figure out if there is someone doing something similar to you who has been in their role longer – use them as a resource.

      Last piece of advice – don’t worry about not knowing now. It take a year to learn a new job and at least 18 months to make enough connections to know who to call. Any manager worth their salt has the expectation that you are still learning.

      Reply ↓
    3. Ashley*

      Name it the next time you have a weekly check-in. Last week I needed X and I felt like I was bugging you for approval and bombarding you with emails. Is there a better way I can handle this in the future? If you have a suggestion like asking X person for approval you could mention that.
      One thing that I have started doing is asking when should I follow-up with you on this when I hear from manager they don’t have an answer on something. These are things that I need to get done but can’t without their input. The phrasing changes some based on the need but it does help with how often I feel like a pest.

      Reply ↓
    4. Goddess47*

      If you’re at all comfortable, ask! Or ask the folk you are comfortable with and work your way around to anyone else as needed.

      “I feel awkward bugging you about X and don’t want to do it too often. But I need that to do Y, which is important/time sensitive/whatever. How do you want me to handle any nudges I may need to give?”

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        Yes! You can (and I think should) literally ask what your boss wants you to do when you’re waiting on them for something and they’re busy. Depending on what you’re doing and what they’re doing, they may want you to find time to talk to them when you’re blocked, or they may want to approve everything in that weekly meeting and it’s okay if you’re twiddling your thumbs some. (Or there are some bosses who say that they want to be interrupted but then act annoyed when you actually do… here’s hoping you don’t have one of those.) You’ll start to get a sense of when they’re really urgent busy-busy and when they’re just busy, but it’s fine and normal that you don’t have that yet (and some people are always busy).

        For the record, when I’ve hired people, I’ve made time to talk to them multiple times a week in their first few months. Doubly so if they’re new to the working world or the to industry.

        Reply ↓
  24. Cog in the Wheel*

    Any advice for being the lowest person in the org chart, but having to nudge supervisors (and even the department head!) to do processes that I need for my job? There’ve been some changes to our automated system, and they’re not getting notifications about certain things; they’ve been told they just need to check and see if there’s anything they need to do. But if they don’t, things won’t move to me to do what I need to do.

    Just today I had to ask both my immediate supervisor and the department head for different things. They’re nice enough about it, but it feels incredibly awkward. I’m not any kind of administrative assistant whose job is to keep them on track. I’m just a low-level functionary trying to do a very specific job that normally wouldn’t interface much with the department head at all! Added to the fact that I’m an “ask” person trying hard to fit into a “guess” culture, so even a quick email sometimes feels too direct and intrusive.

    Reply ↓
    1. spcepickle*

      So I am the top of my 25 person groups org chart and I NEED the nudges.
      We also have several automated systems that send me emails (most of the time) but the truth is I get 100+ emails a day and things get lost. So I tell my team to Please nudge me, if possible I like to get at least day before the nudge (I do field work and conferences and whatnot so I am often away from email for most of a day). But if you need me to sign, or comment, or approve before you can do something – forward the email again with the word nudge so it shows up at the top of my email or give me a teams chat.

      From my perspective it is not awkward at all – it is all of us people trying to move our work forward. Also the people who find it a problem – will tell you it is a problem. Also if the people you are trying to reach do have admins, make friends with them ask for advise on the best way to approach your nudging.

      Reply ↓
      1. Lisa*

        Same! Sometimes you are acting as a firefighter, just directing your attention to the most urgent fire. Someone saying “Can you look at X because Y consequences are pending?” helps me a ton to know how to prioritize it as well. I try to respond timely then, but sometimes the consequences are just going to have to come, because they’re not as dire as whatever else has my attention. I try to communicate that back, but sometimes don’t have the time. The more straightforward you can make it for me, the better. “I need an answer on question X. I (or a SME) recommends Q approach. Is that okay? Until we get an answer, C is out of things to work on.” Stuff like that.

        Reply ↓
        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          Yes! Sometimes I misjudge urgency. I want people to tell me when they need me even if they think they’re being annoying. I try to set the expectation that I am a fan of overcommunication and you aren’t bothering me, but I get that it can be scary for people when they’re skipping levels and nudging.

          Reply ↓
  25. Kwebbel*

    Question for all the corporate lawyers and payments industry gurus in the house: How does your company feel about Master Agreements from your vendors that include a link to online T&Cs (instead of having them captured directly in the Agreement)?

    I work in e-commerce, in a team that manages relationships with payment vendors (like Paypal, Venmo, Stripe, Alipay, GooglePay, and so on). My company is massive: Fortune 500, and any new vendors we onboard will automatically unlock literally hundreds of millions in transaction volumes as soon as we flip the switch.

    In my role I’m a bit of a go-between for the Legal team and the Relationship Managers, and these two teams have a big disagreement right now about online T&Cs. More and more these days, the Relationship Managers submit contract templates from the vendors where all the T&Cs are covered with a link to the vendor’s website, with a note saying that these can change at any time and we’ll receive 30 days’ notice via email if that happens.

    Our lawyers hate this. They always push back and say they need these to be written down in black-and-white. Our business would die if we stopped using any of these providers, so if a vendor changed their T&Cs in a way that’s unfavourable to us, 30 days’ notice would not be enough for us to find and onboard a new provider. We can’t be in a position where we need to accept these changes without an actual renegotiation.

    But our relationship managers hate our lawyers’ position. They say that, especially in the payments industry, online vendor T&Cs are increasingly becoming the norm. We’ll lose this battle, and we look out of touch by asking for them to convert their online T&Cs into a perpetual agreement that needs official signoff every time they want to make a change.

    I’m not really sure who to believe here! So I’m interested to know what people with experience in either the industry or the craft think.

    Reply ↓
    1. CTT*

      I’m a commercial lawyer and I would want it included in the contract. My concern is that there’s no guarantee that link will be available even a week from now and if they are changed, there’s no record of what used to be (assuming there’s no maintained archive of previous iterations).

      Is there a way to download the TC from the website in a readable format and save that?

      Reply ↓
    2. Ripple*

      I have some experience with this from the legal side (not a lawyer) and unless you are 1) dealing with small companies as vendors or 2) your company is very large and has the power to push back in a way that the vendors care to accommodate you, you are not likely to have any leverage to get them to use anything but the Terms and Conditions click to agree/we can change at any time upon 30 days notice type agreement.

      Reply ↓
      1. Strive to Excel*

        It sounds like OP’s company *does* have the leverage to get them to use paper T&C – OP says “Fortune 500 company” and that’s the point where you usually do have some negotiating power.

        Reply ↓
    3. Strive to Excel*

      So – not a lawyer, but in a similar position at a much smaller company where our sales people keep going out and doing things and we have to scramble to catch up.

      My suggestion is: you need a company policy on this, it needs to come from someone higher up in the food chain than either legal or the relationship managers, and you should probably escalate this sooner rather than later. Online T&C, and the way that vendors can just “change” them, are something of a slow burn problem right now in the market, to the point where it’s gone to legal trial.

      Have you had any instances in the past where a vendor has changed their T&C, and having a black and white contract has caused issues for you? Or the flipside: have you had any vendors where you did just use the online T&C? Did things go wrong? Did they not go wrong?

      Reply ↓
    4. Margaret Cavendish*

      I’m definitely not a fan of this. I’m not a lawyer, but I am a records manager, so my job is all about making sure we have the right versions of the right documents. If the vendor’s T&C have changed since we signed the contract, where is the record of the specific version that we signed?

      My organization’s legal team doesn’t seem bothered by it, which surprises me, but here we are.

      Reply ↓
    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I don’t want a link to the contract that I agreed to. I want a finalized original in my hands, or an electronic version that both parties have exact, true copies of. If all I have is a link to a webpage with content managed by the other party, then I have no control over the text once I’ve consented to the terms we’ve negotiated. Let’s be clear. I don’t want a typo corrected on the contract I’ve agreed to unless I’ve been given the opportunity to review and consent to the correction. If you’re talking hundreds of millions of dollars, then it’s a huge risk for me to let my client, the company, agree to a contract where I can see it only through a possibly ephemeral link to a website where the text can be changed without my knowing.

      Reply ↓
      1. Strive to Excel*

        I can’t imagine any other major business contract where one party can say “oh by the way we are going to retain the ability to change this unilaterally at any time and your only input on it is the chance to protest once you see our 30 days notice”. The closest I can think of is a floating rate mortgage, and even then those are usually pinned to some sort of 3rd party index.

        The idea of signing a contract like that dang near gives me *hives*.

        Reply ↓
    6. Hiring Mgr*

      If the concern is that the vendor’s terms can change suddenly wouldn’t that be the same whether it was online or in the contract?

      Reply ↓
      1. Texan In Exile*

        I would think that the signed version that the company holds would govern – that the vendor can change terms with new contracts, but can’t revise old ones without mutual agreement.

        Reply ↓
        1. WestsideStory*

          Yes, what the vendors are asking is to be able to alter existing contracts in a one/sided fashion. I can’t think of any large company that would allow this, unless the Master Contract addressed it in a way to protect the company.
          E-commerce vendors tend to try to get away with anything they can. One solution might be to require, along with the Master Contract, individual Work Orders that amend T&C as you go, but require sign-off from the client before work gets done. This may provide the necessary document trail if things go south
          Yes this will slow things down (cue the whining from the relationship managers) but you have to remind them your company is the customer. As to your fears that you could not replace services quickly, it may be possible to divide the work between competing vendors. Then you’ve always got a back up in case one gets too big for it’s digital britches.

          Reply ↓
      2. Mad Harry Crewe*

        If it’s on paper in the contract, then the vendor’s terms *can’t* change suddenly. That’s legal’s whole point.

        Reply ↓
    7. Chauncy Gardener*

      Ugh. Such a topic!
      At my last company (software), we had T&Cs online and our customers hated them with the heat of a thousand suns. So I actually started hating them too because it made contract negotiations so difficult (I was point on those).
      I really think it’s just laziness. Asking customers to put up with potentially changing terms with 30 days notice is unreasonable. The T&Cs need to be attached to whatever agreement is being used.

      Reply ↓
    8. Rage*

      I’m a Contracts Administrator. My grandboss, the Chief Compliance Officer, doesn’t like them either. Our standard practice is to request that the T&C be attached to the contract, an any language referencing the T&C link removed. But we are NOT a Fortune 500 company (we’re a mid-sized non-profit) and we have been successful in that exactly zero times since I started in this role 18 months ago.

      We do have ONE contract from about 7 B.C. (Before Compliance LOL) where it does look like our CFO at the time managed to get it done that way, but it gets confusing because we end up with statements of work underneath that larger contract, and THEY are beholden to the online T&C.

      Are online T&Cs becoming “the norm”? Sure, probably, but not just for convenience; they are much easier to ensure that the terms favor that organization, instead of its contractors/contractees. It’s not about being “out of touch” – it’s about wanting to ensure you can live with the liability of that contract.

      Reply ↓
    9. Kay*

      Not a lawyer but deal with legal contracts constantly. This would be a major problem and I guarantee this would get broken out into an Exhibit for any final executed contracts to demonstrate exactly what terms were agreed to for many of the reasons already stated.

      Reply ↓
    10. Payments person*

      I don’t normally comment but this is directly up my alley as a lawyer in the payments industry (this is not legal advice). The commenters so far are not wrong that lawyers hate online terms and for good reason, but IME they are industry standard for payment providers. Unless your company is massive and you have someone very senior willing to make this a dealbreaker it will be difficult to avoid online terms entirely.

      Payment providers like the ones you mentioned are dealing with 2 things: tech limitations at scale and compliance / operational requirements from their partner banks. Tech limitations: their stack is built in a certain way and customer requests that are reasonable in isolation may require customization or manual processes that are difficult to implement and even more difficult to maintain. Having a custom built setup could increase the chance that something might break (which, worst case, could mean a disruption in service for the client). Bank partner limitations: most payment providers, even large ones, are dependent on banks and card networks for some part of the underlying processing. Those partners have very specific compliance and operational requirements, which may also change over time (for example, if there is a new regulation). If something changes, the payment company needs to be able to pass that through to customers to avoid major issues with their partners.

      Tldr, your lawyers aren’t wrong but the payment companies do have some legitimate risks they’re trying to manage. Issues that don’t touch compliance may be more negotiable but it will usually come down to leverage and whether your company is willing to walk.

      Again: not legal advice.

      Reply ↓
    11. TPS Reporter*

      agree you need to enforce that a mutually agreed to amendment is signed before material changes to Ts and Cs. however you could potentially acquiesce to unilateral changes (i.e. just changes on the vendor end) that are non-material as long as you clearly define what is non-material, like let’s say changes to contact information. Ultimately though these are your vendors, you’re the client so you should be in control.

      Reply ↓
    12. Hillary*

      One thing I reminded myself (a lot) when doing contracts is that if we make it to law we have all failed. I hate incorporation by reference. Your lawyers are technically correct but it’s not a sustainable position with SAAS providers.

      Your lawyers are used to having the most power in the relationship and that’s not true here. You need them much more than they need you. Unless you’re a large enough customer that you are able to negotiate T&Cs (probably the provider’s top 100 revenue list) IMO the best you’re going to get is longer notice of any changes.

      One thing they can do is include a clause that the T&C are subject to change with x notice in the contract body and the T&Cs as they exist on a certain date as an appendix. Updating an appendix doesn’t need the same level of approvals as the main agreement.

      From a sourcing perspective this needs to be recorded as a known risk, potentially with a mitigation plan.

      Reply ↓
  26. chocolate muffins*

    Work-related joys thread! I was invited into a leadership position that I am very excited to take on. I am doing something similar currently but my term will end soon, and I’m grateful to have the chance to continue this type of work. What made you happy at work this week?

    Reply ↓
    1. Don’t make me come over there*

      I will be going back to full-time work soon! Though really it’s the full-time paycheck I’m excited about. And benefits! The only reason I’ve been able to stay at this start-up for the past few months is that the stock market’s been up. I’ll be glad to be able to break even again.

      Reply ↓
    2. OtterB*

      I’m retiring! I am handing off my main project to a new staffer and she’s great. I will miss it in some ways but there’s a lot of organizational change and I don’t have to learn all the new stuff.

      Reply ↓
  27. Purple Cabbage*

    How much of your PTO do you use for actual relaxation or vacation? I get decent PTO by US standards,* and this year, I’ve used literally one day of it on something fun.

    I supported one parent having major surgery, the other parent in an interstate move, and drove my partner to an out-of-town medical procedure. I also took a couple days to be around for various repairs done on my house.

    I only have so much sick time, and I try to hold onto that in case I get the flu in December or something. I can’t afford to potentially take that time unpaid if I burn the days earlier in the year.

    There’s a lot of discussion here about the importance of resting or taking vacation, and that’s just never been my reality. I like having the time available to support my family, but I don’t have the option to do those things and take a week off for fun stuff too.

    Are others in the same boat, or is this a me problem?
    *(Please don’t turn this into a US vs the rest of the world thing. We’ve had that discussion ad nauseum already.)

    Reply ↓
    1. Justin*

      Well, because I have a toddler, “Vacations” are exhausting. Nice experiences but not relaxing. Or sometimes I take a day off when his school is closed.

      Now that we finally have a sitter for him, I took my first day off that was just a day off for me a few weeks ago.

      But we’re about to have another kid, so. :)

      (And I get not just decent but great PTO by American standards.)

      Reply ↓
      1. trifle*

        Similar. When my kid was in school, I saved 5-7 days every year for care-giving. Not using your vacation for a vacation is standard middle of working life as far as I’m concerned. Some years you get lucky some years you don’t. I think for all the years my kid was in school we only took 3 week long vacations. Did a few Fri-sunday camping trips.

        Reply ↓
    2. EngGirl*

      Depends on the year. I try to use as much as I can for actual vacation, but sometimes you’ve just got other stuff going on.

      For the last couple of years and the foreseeable future I’ve been eating up chunks of time to attend weddings that people are scheduling on Fridays. This is a trend I am slowly starting to loathe. I get that it’s cheaper for the couple, but I’m usually burning more PTO than I was planning on giving the bride and groom as a wedding gift.

      Reply ↓
    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      My life has gone back and forth on that. There was a while when I was doing a 7-hour roundtrip drive multiple weekends to support my parents, one of whom had had major surgery. So that was at least a day of PTO every time I did that – leave at noon on Friday, get back at noon on Monday.

      Even though I don’t have any issues like that now, I still end up taking a few days of PTO each year not for rest and relaxation, but for some work around the house that’s really meaningful for me (getting my garden set up in the spring, canning in the summer & fall). But I justify it to myself that if I tried to squeezeall that in on the weekend, I’d be absolutely exhausted when Monday rolled around again. So it kind of is r&r.

      Reply ↓
      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        I would definitely considering the gardening and the canning to be R&R! I get that the physical aspect of especially the gardening probably takes the “rest” out of “rest and relaxation”, but I like to think that the “rest” part also means a mental rest, so spending time doing something you enjoy is still a rest even if it’s physical work.

        Reply ↓
      2. Princess Peach*

        Gardening definitely counts as a type of relaxation when it’s voluntary. :) I agree with Caramel & Cheddar – resting doesn’t have to be sitting in a bubble bath. The fun PTO day I had involved a high energy long weekend participating in a fan convention, but it was something I chose and wanted to do.

        There’s nothing particularly enjoyable about hospitals, carrying someone else’s boxes, or watching city workers replace your sewage piping though. It seems that most of my “vacation” gets used for things I’d rather not do whether it was on PTO or not. Then I go back to work and people ask if I had a relaxing trip. Alas.

        Reply ↓
    4. Alex*

      I decline spending time with my family so that I can use my vacation time for actual relaxation (my family is not relaxing in any way, shape, or form.)

      And by “family” I mean my parents/extended family–I don’t have kids or a spouse.

      My mom is constantly telling me that I “owe” her my vacation time aka, I should spend it with her, but I just tell her no, I need it to do other things.

      Now I am definitely not saying that that approach is good for everyone, but it is true that most people only get so much time off and we have to set boundaries around its usage. I do use some of the time to see/help my family (I took 2 days last year to take my mother to a medical procedure, for example) but definitely not all of it.

      Reply ↓
    5. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I get three weeks of vacation and I use it all for fun, but I don’t have children nor other folks who depend on me for the kinds of things that people are depending on you for. Frankly, even though I do use it all for fun, it’s still not enough. I tend to use two weeks of it for one-week vacations and then use the rest scattered throughout the year to take long weekends, etc.

      Reply ↓
    6. JHunz*

      Most of my PTO goes to visiting family (we’re hours away from both sets). I take a very occasional day that’s just for relaxing, but it’s definitely the minority.

      Reply ↓
    7. jenny*

      I think some years are just like that. Hopefully next year will be a little easier on that front for you.

      I’m lucky that I can bank vacation time. And my goal is always to bank 1 week the first few year of my job. That allowed me to use one week of vacation and save some. That way, after a couple of years I was in a place where I had enough time to take plenty of time off for fun and still have time if some unpleasant stuff comes up.

      Reply ↓
    8. Jessen*

      I have similar issues with chronic health issues – I have decent PTO by US standards as well, but almost all my time off gets used to either deal with being sick, or to catch up on things I wasn’t able to do because I was sick. I know I’m supposed to take a vacation but it feels like that would require me to somehow have a different body.

      Reply ↓
    9. Too Long Til Retirement*

      Husband and I are DINKS who love to travel, but do not have the amount of vacation time we would LIKE to have. We generally plan 1 weeklong trip per year out of the country, and then do smaller weekend trips the rest of the year.

      At the end of December last year I took a week off to try and relax for myself. It started to work, but then I made the mistake of not turning off my work email notifications. I saw an “urgent” all-company memo come through, and the news made me worry a LOT about changes to my job duties. They did not come to pass, but that worry was annoying, and I ended up being MORE stressed after the week off than I would have been otherwise. SO in the future I will TURN OFF THE NOTIFICATIONS when I want to decompress.

      Reply ↓
    10. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      None–spouse’s needs/wants/agenda, kids, etc, all come first. Which is part of the reason I’ve been so ambivalent about PTO in the past.

      Reply ↓
    11. Generic Name*

      In general I try to take one week off in the summer for an actual vacation (I’m cheap, so we’re not talking luxury cruises, more like camping or staying in a nearby tourist town that we drive to), and I like to take the week between Christmas and New Years off to just loaf around.

      Reply ↓
    12. Seashell*

      When my kids were smaller, I used up a lot of my vacation time to cover school vacations/half-days/snow days or to get home in time for pick-ups, so it wasn’t necessarily fun. Now that everyone’s old enough to entertain themselves, I don’t have to worry about that sort of thing. I took some time this summer because my kid wanted to go to a certain day camp and the timing would interfere with work, so I used the hours in the middle of the day to relax. I also had a brief summer vacation with the family.

      I am planning to take my birthday off this year, some time between Christmas and New Year’s, and possibly the day after the election, in case it take a long time that night to call it and so I can be either very happy or very sad. I can carry some vacation time over to the next year, so I usually do that.

      Reply ↓
    13. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      With the caveat that I am extremely lucky to work fully remotely and to be in good health, and for those around me to be in good health, and I don’t have children to bring home every germ that crosses their path at school – pretty much all my PTO is spent on … I’ll say stuff of my choosing, even if a day off to scrub my house down or whatever isn’t exactly fun stuff. I have only needed to call in sick once in 10 years.

      Reply ↓
    14. i am a human*

      for maybe the first time ever this year, I took a week off in May right before my kids got out of school. It was amazing. I didn’t do anything fun, per se, but it did feel luxurious.

      Reply ↓
    15. Iusemymiddlename*

      I haven’t actually had any PTO available to me since 2013 (age discrimination is real, folks), but when I’ve taken unpaid time off from work since 2014, it has always been for family issues. No family nearby, so lots of travel to attend to matters. I will finally have some PTO coming later this year, but will probably use it to travel to visit family.

      Reply ↓
    16. Rage*

      I had not really had a “vacation” since before COVID. Any time off I took was either visiting family (I love ’em, but good Lord ‘n butter they can be exhausting!), family visiting me (we live states apart – see my previous parenthetication), moving, funerals, family medical, my own surgeries (2), yadda yadda, you get the picture.

      The vacations that I did take pre-COVID were often “busy” trips anyway (e.g., Dragon*Con – fun, but exhausting).

      It’s not a “you” problem. It’s a thing. I honestly didn’t realize just how much truly relaxing time off I had not had in years until last month when fiance and I went on an 11 day Alaska cruise. We did a couple of excursions in port, but since we ported out of San Francisco instead of Seattle/Vancouver, we had 2 full at-sea days at both the beginning and end of the trip. So a lot of eating and napping, chilling on our balcony, more napping; I don’t think we attended a single show or event on the ship. I came back SO FREAKING REFRESHED it’s not funny anymore. I know I will need to make this a more regular occurrence.

      Honestly, you may just need to figure out a way to make time for it and then be strict about it. Make a concerted effort to “bank” a few days that you will use for nothing other than eating, napping, and watching reruns of your favorite shows.

      Reply ↓
  28. Blue Pen*

    Is it inappropriate to ask your manager to run interference with the rest of your team concerning a personal matter at home?

    My spouse and I are going through something really difficult that has left us both mentally and emotionally drained. Although I completely understand (and appreciate) my colleagues asking me how we’re doing, and I know they mean well, I just don’t want to talk about it. It’s not so much that I don’t ever (or won’t ever) talk about it, but at this moment, it’s just a little too raw for me to get through without crying. I can keep it together for the most part, but when I’m asked questions about it, it’s just really trying and I can’t guarantee I won’t start crying. I don’t want to cry in front of my colleagues.

    Would it be weird to lay out an overview of the situation with my manager, emphasize that I’m OK and will get through it, but if they can head those questions/conversations off at the pass with everyone else, I would be most grateful. And if it is OK to do something like this, how would I go about wording it?

    Reply ↓
    1. ferrina*

      Depends on your manager.

      If your manager is amazing, you could say “I’m going through a really hard time at home due to X. It really helps if I don’t talk about it at work. Could you help by letting everyone know that I’m okay, just don’t want to talk about it?” (or whatever it is you want- you need to tell your manager explicitly what you are asking for.

      If your manager is mediocre, you can ask for a one-time announcement for the team. That’s something doable that isn’t a big lift. This will only work if you know that your team is well meaning and just needs guidance on how to handle this with you.

      If your manager is bad, don’t ask. A bad mangaer won’t suddenly handle a delicate situation well; they’ll just make more drama you don’t need (either intentionally or accidentally).

      Reply ↓
      1. Blue Pen*

        Thanks! My manager, thankfully, is amazing. To be clear, I don’t need them to take on any emotional labor on my part. The only thing I would want is for them to pull our small team aside and say something along the lines of “ixnay on asking Blue Pen about X.”

        Reply ↓
        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          As a manager – I would absolutely be willing to do that for one of my team members if they asked me to.

          Personally — I would probably write an email to my team myself, along the lines of

          “Hey, y’all know thus-and-such happened and I’m having some struggles, and what I could really use as support from you lot is for work to be a place where I don’t have to think about it. So I’m going to do three things:
          1) assume you all are fountains of good thoughts and goodwill,
          2) ask you not to mention this situation again if I don’t bring it up explicitly first, and
          3) delete all responses to this email unread.
          Thank you for understanding and helping me out in this manner.”

          Reply ↓
        2. Cordelia*

          I think it’s absolutely appropriate. It sounds like people already maybe know something of what’s going on, so you don’t need to go into further details when speaking to the manager, just something like “People keep asking me about the XYZ situation, and I know they are being kind, but it’s really hard for me to talk about at work. Would you be able to let them know I’m really grateful for their concerns, but I’d prefer they didn’t ask me about it for a while?”
          When I had a similar situation I asked a colleague I knew well to do the same thing for me, because it was easier for me to talk to her than to my manager at the time, but my manager would have done it too.

          Reply ↓
      2. MsM*

        It also depends on whether your team is likely to respect a “Blue Pen is going through a rough time right now; please don’t ask them for details on their personal life,” or if that will just make the prying worse, even in the form of asking if there’s anything they can do to help. Although if there’s a colleague who most people like and respect, you could also try asking that person to spread the word and/or run interference with anyone who’s likely to give you a hard time.

        Reply ↓
    2. The Coolest Clown Around*

      It’s not an unreasonable request, though I’d factor in your manager’s judgement here. Another option might be to pull aside the most influential coworker who’s judgement you trust and say something like, “Hey, I really appreciate everyone’s kindness while I’ve been going through a difficult time, but it’s really hard to be asked about my personal life so often at work. Would you be willing to help quietly discourage people from asking so frequently?”

      Reply ↓
    3. OtterB*

      Agree it is reasonable to ask your manager or a well-liked colleague to make this kind of announcement: Blue Pen is doing okay but while at work would really like to be able to think about work, not personal stuff. If there’s any change or any help needed, they will say so.

      Reply ↓
  29. The Uncool Mom*

    I’m F38 and started a new job at a tech company about 8 months ago. I previously worked at a nonprofit for a decade. I never previously felt insecure about my age, age is age, you can’t change it! But I took about two steps down for title with a salary increase for my current job.
    I feel like an awkward high schooler now, because the people who have similar titles to me are anywhere from 13-4 years younger than me and the few woman that are my age are way higher up and our company seems hierarchical. I’ve had younger friends before but I’m picking up on a bit of an out in the open anti-kids sentiment among colleagues “I would NEVER have kids, yuck” and I have two young children. Of course this is not everyone but I came from a job where people enthusiastically loved children so it’s been a shift.

    As someone who has mostly felt at ease around others and connects quickly I feel like it’s hard to find connections at work and it’s making me compare myself to others constantly which I didn’t really do before.

    I want to nip this in the bud and was wondering if there are any good books/podcasts anyone recommends that is geared towards women in their 40s/moms pivoting in a career. TIA!

    Reply ↓
    1. Lady Lessa*

      No ideas, because the last job (before my current one) I had a hellacious time with fitting in. They hadn’t had any new people in a long time, and didn’t know how to help me. My standard things didn’t work (and I have changed jobs a lot, with many not being in the same area).

      I was frankly very relieved when I was let go.

      Good luck

      Reply ↓
    2. Excel Gardener*

      For the anti-kids stuff, maybe just gently reminding people you have kids when they make anti-kids comments will cause people to stop making these kinds of comments, at least around you.

      As for connecting with them, I’d try to find commonalities and emphasize those at first. That probably means less kid/family talk and more talk about tv shows/sports/video games/hobbies/travel etc. that younger folks are more likely to find relatable. I think people in their 20s can sometimes be a bit intimidated by middle aged folks and assume they have less in common than they do, so it’s probably going to be more on you to establish that common ground at first.

      Reply ↓
    3. Work it on out*

      What exactly are you trying to “nip in the bud”? Because you are not going to change your co-workers’ opinions about not wanting kids. They will not be interested in your kid’s soccer game or field trip to the cookie factory but you can find something else in common. Music? An art exhibition? New science discoveries about shark DNA? There are plenty of things in the world to talk about.

      Reply ↓
      1. The Uncool Mom*

        No, definitely don’t want to try to change peoples minds. I just gave that as an example.

        What I’m wanting to nip in the bud is my own, internal comparisons or feeling awkward due to my age and just being at a different stage in life.

        Reply ↓
    4. Ellis Bell*

      Ha, I’m in the same boat except the young’uns are having kids and I haven’t. What are the other anti kids comments like? If it’s something like: “Oh yuk they are awful and parents must be stupid” it’s not okay to say that about any group of people. If it’s just more “Oh getting up through the night is yuk, kids are really not for me” people can be really hard on women in their thirties about kids, and I’ve known infertile people to say this stuff defensively. I think it’s entirely possible you’ll find your groove with them eventually, try to remember that you’re still new! It takes time to figure out what you and Surface Opposites have in common besides the life stage stuff. I think the stuff about being professionally new applies: listen more than you talk, and be prepared for things to feel different. Do also try to remember that age means very very little in good professional environments. I don’t mean people are blind to it but it shouldn’t affect how well respected, or even how well liked you are. People won’t understand your references and that’s literally the only thing I’ve found that my younger colleagues don’t understand; and they are still willing to listen to me explain a joke based on a milk advert from the eighties.

      Reply ↓
    5. In the same boat*

      I’m in a similar situation (F38, new job, young child) and colleagues the same level as me now vary lots in age from early twenties to my age or older – but mainly younger.
      I took your comment to be more about the self-doubt you’re feeling rather than wanting to talk about kids all the time?
      Just wanted to send solidarity and say that I will share any recommendations I think of (I’m not great at remembering specific ones off the top of my head!)

      Reply ↓
  30. Anon4This*

    I posted a little while ago about some layoffs at my organization. Essentially, a nonprofit that bills itself as a worker-friendly social justice org laid off two employees who talked openly about cultural issues, and the rest of the team is scared for their jobs. A huge thank you to everyone who talked me down from the immediate panic, especially Unionizer Bunny (and yes, we’re talking about it.)

    As an update, leadership has just invested in some high-level training for me, which makes me feel like my job is a lot safer. And our team is organizing. Honestly, I haven’t felt this close to my coworkers in ages. As a mostly-remote employee, this is great for team cohesion!

    We’ve managed to get leadership to agree to sit down with us, and are working on a list of changes we’d like to see made. My question for the week: does anyone have any suggestions for what to call it? We’re looking for something a little stronger than “requests” but not as confrontational as “demands”. Even the grant-writers are stumped!

    Reply ↓
    1. The Coolest Clown Around*

      How about “proposals”? It sounds sufficiently work-formal and I think the pressure you’re looking to put in the word is mostly implicit in the format of the meeting. That also implies there’s room for a little negotiation if there are business needs prohibiting the original ideas but your leadership is still willing to try to meet your underlying needs in a way that “demands” doesn’t.

      Reply ↓
      1. MsM*

        It’s a nonprofit, so you could also use a little strategic plan-type framing: “Here’s our vision for a culture where workers feel heard and respected, here are the strategies we consider important to making that happen, and here are the actions/next steps that need to be taken.”

        Reply ↓
  31. Turingtested*

    I’m hiring for a sales/finance adjacent role. Typical salary in my area is 55-70k for this role. I offer 60-70k based on experience.

    More than half the applicants request a minimum salary of 100k. It’s not possible for me to meet and it seems incredibly rude to say “Will you accept 30k less?”

    Reply ↓
    1. Turingtested*

      Sorry hit the submit prematurely.

      So I pass on these candidates. Is that the right way to handle it? Many are qualified.

      How do you all handle these situations?

      Reply ↓
      1. EngGirl*

        If you’re not able to pay what they’re asking and the gap is that wide, pass and move on, it’s better for everyone.

        If you have a qualified candidate who’s closer to the range you can reach out, but be transparent and give them the range first so they can decide if they want to continue.

        Reply ↓
        1. Turingtested*

          The last person I hired had asked for 100k and I passed on their resume. They networked to find me and I said “The max I can offer is 70k per the posting, you requested 100k, it seemed insulting to offer you that.” The response was a flabbergasted “I want 100k but I’ll take 65.” The candidate seemed shocked that I took the salary requirement seriously.

          So I was curious if others had that experience while hiring, or if there was some unwritten rule that applicants now shoot for 100k no matter what.

          Reply ↓
          1. A Simple Narwhal*

            So I’ve been in a similar position from the other side. Early in my career I was severely underpaid for my position, and my mom suggested I ask for a huge raise. Their thought was that even though I probably wouldn’t get that amount, that would open negotiations and we’d meet somewhere between my current salary and there.

            What happened? I was told “absolutely not” and got nothing. Granted, the owner was a cheap asshole so even a modest request may have been rejected. But my mom’s advice made me so sure that there would be negotiations that I never considered an outright rejection. I wouldn’t be surprised if the person above received similar bad advice.

            Reply ↓
            1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

              That’s my experience, too. I had to figuratively drag the company back to the negotiating table (it was negotiating a conversion from contractor to employee). If it’s more than ~10%, I’m not optimistic about it.

              Reply ↓
            2. Turingtested*

              That is my concern. A lot of these applicants are recent grads with relevant degrees but no relevant experience and I feel like in some ways I’m doing a disservice by not speaking out. But if they want 100k who am I to say its not realistic? It isn’t for this job but not every one.

              Reply ↓
          2. Annony*

            For entry level, it doesn’t really surprise me. Lots of students are given bad job searching advice or may not be good at looking up market rate and basing their number on HCOL salaries. The fact that you have the range in the ad does raise a bit of a red flag that they either did not read the ad thoroughly but I don’t think it would be insulting to reiterate the range and ask if they are still interested if you are otherwise interested in them as a candidate. Honestly, for an entry level position you may want to consider just asking them if they are ok with the range instead of asking them their desired salary.

            Reply ↓
    2. Anon4this*

      Put the salary range in the ad.

      Also, do you offer bonus or equity? If you do put that in. Unless this is entry level that seems low level for sales or finance unless there’s a bonus or something involved.

      Reply ↓
    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If you are posting the salary range in the ad, and they are coming back 50% higher than your upper end, then I’d feel free to just ignore those applications.

      But if you aren’t posting that, then I really think you should, and probably also look at what else is in the job description. There may be a whole swath of people who aren’t applying because the job sounds out of their league.

      Reply ↓
      1. Turingtested*

        The salary range and duties are in the ad. Outside of HCOL areas, no one earns 100k/yr entry level at this job. My local competitors actually offer slightly lower salaries.

        Thanks for the feedback!

        Reply ↓
    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I’d say that even though you’re posting the salary, I wouldn’t be shocked if a lot of people were missing it entirely. That’s not great if attention to detail is important in the role, but if it’s not and you have an otherwise intriguing candidate in the 100k pool, it could be worth reaching out to them to say “We’d love to set up an interview, but I want to be clear that, as listed in the job posting, our salary range is $55-70k. Does it make sense to continue talking?” or whatever.

      Reply ↓
    5. Strive to Excel*

      Not rude at all. If you’re putting your salary in the ad, and they’re coming back with 30k over, then it’s completely reasonable to say “we cannot meet your salary expectations”. If this is coming up later than the phone screen or initial application review, I’d start asking about salary earlier, but I’d guess you’re already not doing that.

      Reply ↓
    6. Hlao-roo*

      More than half the applicants request a minimum salary of 100k.

      When are the applicants requesting a minimum salary? Is there are “what salary are you looking for?” question on the application? Are they saying this during a phone screen or during an interview?

      If it’s a question on the application, can you remove the question? Or can you replace it with one that says something along the lines of “I understand the starting salary for this role will be in the 60-70k range, based on experience and that is in line with my expectations” with a “yes/no” answer?

      Reply ↓
    7. Generic Name*

      Unless you’re having trouble filling positions due to lack of qualified applicants, I’d ignore the ones asking for $100k. Since you’re posting the range in the ad, I’m curious how the applicants are requesting a desired salary. Do you have a system that asks everyone for salary requirements and won’t move an application forward unless they fill out a desired salary? Or are they stating that as their desired salary during a phone screen or something. If they are forced to declare a desired salary (despite you rightly posting a range in your ad), I’d see if you can change that requirement, as it’s kindof redundant.

      Reply ↓
  32. Bongo Fury*

    I have a question.
    A year ago I transferred to a brand new position, mostly to keep my remote status because the commute was becoming unmanageable. I’d been on that first role only a year when they made coming into the office mandatory.

    My new manager is a bully. She is brand new to managing but has clear favorites, and myself and another coworker are not her favorites.

    Is it better to transfer again, after only a year? Or try to keep my head down for another bit and pad out my resume better?

    Reply ↓
    1. The Coolest Clown Around*

      I think you have the room to switch, but it depends a bit on your previous work history – do you have another longer position or two in the recent past you can point to as evidence of reliability? Even if you don’t, two year-long stints isn’t a dealbreaker, but I’d encourage you to take your time looking carefully at your next spot because three in a row starts to look like a problematic pattern.

      I’m sorry this is happening to you – it’s frustrating to feel like you’re being penalized for things outside of your control.

      Reply ↓
    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      You say you transferred – does that mean you stayed within the same company? If so then I’d count your current job as being two years long, which is a perfectly fine amount of time at a company. As long as they aren’t drastically different positions, they can both go under a single heading. Example:

      Marimbacorps, Inc June 2022 – Present
      Xylophone Mallet Coordinator July 2023 – Present, Marimba Mallet Coordinator June 2022 – July 2023
      -Accomplishments
      -Accomplishments

      Fwiw even if they’re completely separate jobs, there’s no harm in starting looking for a new job now. Job hunting (in my experience) takes a while, and you might as well get a head start. The time will pass regardless, and making an effort to get out of a terrible situation can sometimes make being in that situation a little easier.

      Good luck! I’m sorry you’re in this situation.

      Reply ↓
      1. Bongo Fury*

        Yes, I went from Job #1 to Job #2 in the same company, and now I might be looking at Job #3 at the same company. I keep telling myself the bullying is not so bad, but the person my boss loved to bully just quit and she’s the type that MUST have someone to offload all their frustration to, and I think I’m next in line.
        I should have known something was up when two weeks after I started another coworker quit dramatically and told me to “watch my back and make sure you kiss her butt”. I have so many stories about this lady, ugh.

        Reply ↓
      2. Nemy*

        The only caveat that I would give on this is Applicant Tracking Systems (ATS) absolutely hate this kind of formatting. I had a similar experience and ATS systems always seem to think I worked at multiple companies instead of the same company with different roles. So I always have to enter this in manually to make it right on their “smart” systems.

        To me, that’s still a worthwhile tradeoff, but something to consider.

        Reply ↓
    3. Chauncy Gardener*

      If you can transfer, I would certainly try to do so. Working for a bully who plays favorites isn’t going to do you any favors, mentally, emotionally or professionally.

      Reply ↓
  33. Jessen*

    Something I was thinking about from a letter earlier this week – are you really supposed to find a place to pull over and call or text someone the minute you know you’re supposed to be late? Does that mean it’s an professional expectation now that everyone has a hands-free setup in their car? In my experience it’s been the norm on times I’m running late for things that there’s nowhere you can safely and legally pull over without taking a detour to get off the highway and adding a decent chunk of time to an already long commute, so I’ve always been super confused when people insist I should have called. (And that’s if I can even get off at all. The worst offenders have been times I was trying to get somewhere and an accident ahead of me meant everyone got trapped on the interstate for 45min.) But people seemed to be talking like it was quick and easy to just pull over and make a phone call and that is extremely unusual in my experience.

    How would you handle situations this sort of situation if getting to a place where you can call or text just isn’t a realistic option?

    Reply ↓
    1. Anon4this*

      I think people understand if it’s an emergency or happens occasionally. Or set up Siri or similar on your phone to text verbally if needed. If you don’t have a cell then check traffic before you go and leave extra early.

      I always leave early for important meetings and check traffic if I’m driving. If it’s a pattern and you’re late for a lot of things you’ll need to figure out why.

      I find being constantly late and rude and disrespectful of people’s time. I understand if someone had an emergency or something but if it’s a team member or a family member (I have an uncle who is notoriously late for thing) I find it really disrespectful and talk to them about it.

      Reply ↓
    2. Jane Bingley*

      I think a job interview is different from everyday, because the stakes are so high and the relationship is so new.

      That being said, I generally check my itinerary before leaving and give the people I’m planning to meet a heads up if I think there’s a real chance I’ll be late, just for my own peace of mind. If it’s an accident or unexpected problem and it’s someone who knows me, I’ll call or text when I can but I won’t panic about it.

      Reply ↓
      1. Anon for This*

        Also, I think an explanation that you couldn’t text due to safety until such and such time helps. (But NOT as you’re walking into the building.)

        Not every place has decent traffic reporting. And due to the way my city is set up, I was once stopped by the same freight train twice. (I was a little late for a job I already had, but it was nbd.)

        Reply ↓
        1. Jessen*

          In my area it’s more that long drives are common, and traffic reporting doesn’t help much if the situation changes drastically once you’re on the highway. And 90% of your drive is going to be on the interstate most likely – so you’re looking at something like a 70min drive with 10min to get onto the interstate, 50min on the interstate, and 10min to get from the interstate to your destination, under ideal conditions. Worst case is something like, you get on the highway, 10min later something happens and it goes from perfectly clear to barely moving.

          Reply ↓
    3. Jaime*

      So even when you’re not moving and you’re trapped on the interstate, you still don’t feel it’s safe to call? Do you have Bluetooth in your car? Most people aren’t this rigid with road phone rules. If you’re moving, sure don’t call but if you aren’t going anywhere..

      Reply ↓
      1. Jessen*

        No, I don’t have bluetooth in my car. I used to have a thing that connected my phone via USB but it broke and I don’t think they make the parts anymore to fix it. And in most cases you’re moving 1-3 mph intermittently for the next several miles, in my experience, so it’s not quite stopped enough that you can devote your attention to a phone call but not really moving quickly enough to get anywhere either.

        Reply ↓
        1. Hiring Mgr*

          Personally I would be very comfortable making a quick phone call in that circumstance, but not saying that’s the best advice

          Reply ↓
    4. juliebulie*

      This happened to me. It didn’t matter because I had no phone contact info from them anyway. I was late. I still got to do the interviews, but they didn’t like me enough to make up for my tardiness.

      I literally cannot deal with my phone in the car. I have a hands-free setup, but even that is much too distracting for me to drive safely. This particular incident took place in Boston traffic, where you need to have eyes in the back of your head and also very steady nerves. So, that didn’t work out.

      Of course I would have called if 1) I had a place where I could stop safely and 2) I had a phone number to call or text.

      During the interview I found out that they were going to move much farther away from where I live, which was already a haul. So the whole thing was a waste of everyone’s time. But you bet your bippy I’ll never again leave the house for an interview without contact info in-hand.

      Reply ↓
    5. Hlao-roo*

      I think it’s a combination of two things:

      1 – Drives where the entire drive or the last 10+ min are not on a highway and there are residential streets/business parking lots where you can easily pull over for a quick text phone call. If the plan is to exit the highway at 12:40 pm, park in the parking lot at 12:55 pm, and start the interview at 1pm and traffic is a little slower than usual so you instead are exiting the highway at 12:50pm, you have a few minutes to pull over on a side street/into a business parking lot to call the interviewer and say you won’t be there until 1:10pm. This of course does not help in cases where there is a severe crash on the highway and you’re stuck doing that 1-3 mph crawl for 45min.

      2 – A lot of people have a hands-free calling setup in the car and/or smartphones that can voice-to-text (through their cars radio/entertainment center/smartphone interface). Also, a lot of people are comfortable texting or calling (not hands free) while driving! This is unsafe and illegal in most places, but people still do it (see previous letters about people taking work video/voice calls while driving).

      Reply ↓
    6. I should really pick a name*

      For a job interview specifically, I think it is in your interest to notify them before the interview start time if you can do so safely.
      It doesn’t mean you need to pull over the moment the instant you know you will be late. But it means keeping an eye out for an opportunity.
      It’s not so much a professional expectation, as it is a suggestion to give you the best possible outcome.

      Telling someone you WILL be late simply looks better than telling them that you ARE late.

      And if you can’t do so safely, then you can’t.

      Reply ↓
  34. Jaid*

    I’m being “upskilled” into a larger skill set that uses manuals that are “slightly” different from the main ones. This skill set is meant to go behind other’s work and fix mistakes and apparently, it’s meant to be done fast so the error codes can be closed out quick.
    We’re being told to take off the orca hat and put on the shark one and woe betide if we refer to our orca manual in place of the shark version. Even if our orca manual is the OG.
    Anyway, I’m having a moment with our trainers, showing us their work and going wait. wut…. Like, we can’t contact our customers to verify payments, because what if they didn’t make the payments? They consider that disclosure?!?!

    Anyone else having some banana pants moments with trainers who are ignorant, yet enthusiastic?

    Reply ↓
  35. illuminate (they/them)*

    With a few letters and discussions of conferences lately, I as a very early career person have questions about them. (I onboarded as an intern in January 2020, so…)

    -If you find a conference you want to go to, should it directly benefit your current job to go? (I don’t have any requirements for continuing education credits or anything right now that I know of.)

    -If you’re approved for a conference, should you expect to bring back and share notes with your team on what you learned?

    -How far ahead should you plan and get approvals for a conference?

    -How do you get an idea about a conference culture? I’m in cybersecurity and Blackhat is a big one that I’ve heard of in the field, but from the grapevine, you shouldn’t go if you aren’t also personally interested and invested in cybersecurity, but I didn’t necessarily get that from the website. I’m also fairly young-and-femme presenting, and I’m not well plugged into networking yet for various reasons, and I get a bit concerned about personal safety…

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      In my experience, it’s a lot easier to get approval for a local conference. Your employer is just writing off a day or two of labor, not shelling out actual cash for travel. I was fortunate when I was early-career to live in a company town (Greater DC area – government tech contracting) and there were plenty of conferences & trade shows.

      Conferences don’t have to benefit you right in the moment, but they ought to be at least generally applicable to what you do now or what you might be expected to be doing in the next 2 years.

      Yes, you absolutely should expect to share notes. Even better, if you know colleague A is working on subject X, get stuff specifically for them about that. Also, try to identify larger themes and share those with the group, not just general stream-of-consciousness stuff.

      Culture is actually much easier to figure out these days – because there are all sorts of online reviews & chatter about them. Between your colleagues & that stuff you ought to be able to figure out your comfort level vis-a-vis other attendees, off-hours events, etc. Don’t feel any pressure at all to attend happy hours or any off-site, off-hours stuff. If you meet somebody that you want to have a deeper conversation about, then arrange to meet during the happy hour or whatever. But in my experience random mingling isn’t necessary, or for that matter useful, as a way to network.

      Reply ↓
  36. Czech Mate*

    Would appreciate some advice about getting out of my 1:1s.

    I work in higher ed, so there are very strict tiers for payment/title. My coworker has to do database management, and so in order to get some higher pay and a better title, on paper the person in his position manages the person in my position. Dean has told me that it’s entirely so that coworker can have the pay and title. However, they feel that it’s good for me to meet regularly with someone for guidance on professional development.

    The thing is–my coworker is incompetent. I frequently do a lot of his job functions. We receive complaints about him all the time. He is active in a professional org that I’d like to become involved in someday, but based on how he’s been at those events, I frankly wouldn’t want to be associated with him when volunteering for positions within the org. He’s already been given warnings about his performance, but the 1:1s have continued.

    I should be able to grit my teeth and bear it, but they’re incredibly awkward (he doesn’t know anything about what I do and has no advice to give me) and infuriating (he talks about his own work and always claims to be swamped, but when I say, “So what are you swamped with? Do you need to delegate tasks to me?” he suddenly clams up, etc.). I’m just over the charade of pretending an incompetent man is my manager. I’m fine with him continuing to have the pay and the title, so we can keep everything the same on paper, but I want to tell the Dean that in real life I don’t want to playact that he’s my manager anymore. Any advice?

    Reply ↓
    1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      How is your relationship with the Dean? Based on the fact that he was candid with you about your “manager” only having that position on paper, it seems like you’re pretty safe to be candid with him too (within reason).

      If it were me, I would ask the Dean for a brief face to face, and then let him know that you appreciate his suggestion, but your 1:1’s have not been productive for you or “manager,” so going forward, you will only be scheduling them as-needed. (The unspoken part being that they are never needed and will never be scheduled.)

      Reply ↓
    2. Anon4this*

      Talk to your Dean or your grandboss. Be diplomatic and make it about what you need and see if you can report to another manager.

      Might you look for another role in a different department?

      A close family member of mine is having difficulty in higher ed right now and is looking to move. They are a Dean type level and advocating for their team- basically another team was promoted but they overspent budget (by a ton) didn’t meet their targets, etc.

      My family member advocated for multiple people on their team being promoted because they earned it. My family member was shut down even though the team members have done better work. It isn’t a competition but don’t promote people who literally do nothing, go hundreds of thousands over budget for a small program, etc and then the team that kicks everything out of the park and goes under budget you don’t even give them the same credit. And my family members team is a larger portfolio as well.

      My family member didn’t even advocate for themselves just the team. Needless to say they are helping the team look for other roles because they understand they aren’t appreciated and never will be. Higher ed for you!!!

      I know a few people in higher ed and you really need to leave in order to jump and there are so many dysfunctional parts if higher ed. I have worked in different fields but higher ed sounds to be one of the most chaotic.

      Reply ↓
    3. Goddess47*

      Document, document, document.

      If you have to do routine reports, check with your Dean, but copy the Dean so they are in the loop. You don’t want the coworker to be the only one who knows what you are doing.

      I spent my life working in IT in higher ed and we always said that no one is going to die if a database request goes wrong. Let your coworker fail. If it’s not your job and you have not been told by the Dean to do the database work, let it go wrong or not get done on a timely basis.

      And if your Dean wants you to meet with ‘someone’ about professional development, find someone else on campus and ask the Dean why the other person can’t be a ‘mentor’ to you. Professional development doesn’t have to be in IT.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
  37. Barren (apparently)*

    Hey! Are there any other not married, childless women in an in-person office here? I work for a school district and I’m the only woman in my department who has no kids and is not married (partnered) and in my 30s. It didn’t feel weird when I worked for a remote company, but I guess it’s unavoidable with small talk and most people’s conversations revolving around their kids. I don’t feel as “adult” as my peers, nor do I have as much I feel open about talking to them. Kids seem like a nice topic because you can talk about the fun antics of your children without getting personal. I’m even blanking on what I talked about at previous workplaces. I think books and hobbies. But most everyone in the office has younger kids, so it’s hard to have as much time for hobbies, and our conversation defaults back to their kids.

    My boss is married and without kids, but he doesn’t get the same kind of questions that I do. I think he wants to be friends with me because of we’re both childless, but I feel a bit awkward being friends.

    Anyways, I feel like it comes with working for a school district. I just feel like an odd bird being childless!

    Reply ↓
    1. HSE Compliance*

      Hi! Also in my 30s, generally in-plant or in-office. It’s really easy to feel like you are third-wheeling it in conversations, especially this time of year when school starts, and if the group tends to swing conversations back towards kids.

      In an office where this was really pushed on me (small, “we’re a faaaaaamily”), I handled it by bringing my hobbies in at lunch. I would read or knit in the break area, and be friendly at whoever came in or was near me. Eventually we ended up with a little crafting club that met every lunch, and the conversations flowed more between what we were working on, work, family, etc., and it didn’t feel *so* very kid-focused.

      It is hard though. I’ve kind of given up with finding friends at work. It seems most everyone in my age group has kids, and – with love – I don’t want to hear the nitty gritty details of what Mary Sue Jr. did at kindergarten every single day.

      (My husband has none of these struggles and a majority of his coworkers also have kids.)

      Reply ↓
    2. EngGirl*

      I have the same issues, single, early 30s, and child free. It can definitely feel sometimes like I’m a kid sitting at the grownups table when the talk turns to kids or even spouses.

      Like if everyone starts talking about things their husbands do that drive them crazy I end up chiming in with an agreement like “oh my dad does the same thing to my mom, it makes her nuts” and I feel like everyone is looking at me like I’m a child.

      Or people will be venting a bit about their kids and I’ll say something like “oof, I don’t know how you guys do it!” In an empathetic way and then again I get a weird vibe.

      Reply ↓
    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      Speaking as a mid-40s woman with kids, I’m not currently in-office, but do go in every few months for retreats and all-staff meetings. I LOVE talking about stuff unrelated to kids with my coworkers. Last time I was in the office, I did talk about kids a little, but spent much more time talking about TV shows, what our colleges were like, changes at our workplace, books, etc. Of course, in my department, those of us with kids are more of a minority (about a third). A lot of us are pretty geeky, and we can always find something fun to talk about that isn’t about kids.

      Reply ↓
    4. EMP*

      Honestly I think it’s one of those things where no one WANT to only talk about their kids, but like you say, it’s easy, and it probably does take up most of their waking non-work hours. They probably feel like they’re boring but have nothing else to chat about some times. Do you have a pet? A socially acceptable hobby? Responding to a “what I did with the kids this weekend” story with a “that sounds so fun, I took a nature walk” is completely acceptable IMO.

      Reply ↓
  38. Baseball1*

    Does anyone else work in an environment where there is a stated policy that salaried employees may not use comp time? It’s actually spelled out multiple ways.

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think our policy is that managers can’t and everyone ignores it. They don’t “officially” take it in that it’s not written down anywhere and doesn’t go into the HR system, but they shift their working days, i.e. if they’re in the office all weekend for an event, then they take Monday and Tuesday off.

      I imagine the viability of the above depends on a) the managers’ managers are reasonable people, and b) that you work in a sector that has a lot of work happening outside M-F 9-5, so of course you’re going to flex your time a bit. You don’t just work an extra 16 hours and then eat it.

      Reply ↓
    2. spcepickle*

      Define Comp time – Most of my team is salaried and overtime eligible (a sweet set up for them). So if they work past their scheduled shift or more than 80 hours they get to choose time and half in either money or comp time. The comp time is documented and kept in our time keeping software (it is capped and they have to use in a given amount of time).

      As a manger I am sort of eligible for exchange time meaning that if I work past my scheduled shift for very tight set of reasons (mostly off site meetings in the evening) I can in the same two week pay period do a straight exchange. So work 6-8pm Thursday night because I am at a public meeting, leave two hours early on Friday. Also captured in our time keeping software. In reality nobody does this and everyone winks and nods that managers have all kinds of flexibility as long as work as done and people can contact us. So I have been doing PT and leaving an hour early every Thur for the last 6 weeks, it does not show up on my timesheet and I do not bother to take sick time. I work well over 40 hours a week and my team knows how to get ahold of me if they really need something in the last hour of Thur. Nobody in my upper management has noticed or cared.

      And honestly if my management started caring I would start job searching.

      Reply ↓
      1. Baseball1*

        The policy states that no salaried employee may work adjusted hours or fewer hours to make up for additional hours worked or days worked outside of their typical schedule. Salaried employees are expected to work whatever hours are needed and always be available up respond.

        This is also an environment where people are called when on PTO and in which people get questioned or unable to “volunteer” when events happen. There is also lots of use of the idea that the workplace is a “family”

        Reply ↓
        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          Ooh this definitely sounds like it sucks. I’d be looking for new work if I was working lots of hours outside the regular schedule or getting called while on PTO. Family thing is a big red flag in the context of this info too. I’m sorry they’re like this!

          Reply ↓
        2. Excel Gardener*

          This sounds like a toxic culture.

          A lot of employers will not have an official comp time policy for salaried employees and essentially let each employee and their manager manage unofficial comp time on a case-by-base basis. But I’ve never heard of places that banned even informal comp time.

          Reply ↓
        3. spcepickle*

          That sounds sucky and toxic. I would start job hunting with that policy. I also think that places like this lead the movement for “quiet quitting”. I would make sure to only be available during my work hours and just throw side eye at anyone who questioned it. But I understand that is place of privilege not everyone has.

          If you wanted to google your state and laws about salaried positions it could be interesting. I think there are rules about being paid if you are on-call and even salaried employees can only be expected to work so many hours.

          Reply ↓
  39. Partnership Qs*

    People who have bought into their companies to become an Owner –

    -What were the deciding factors that motivated you to take the plunge?
    -Any things you wish you had asked about in retrospect?
    -Any hesitations that you had? And were those cleared before you signed on or did they continue to be obstacles?
    -Anything that surprised you about the process?

    There’s an opportunity for me to buy into my small (<30 people) engineering company and become a principal/partner. I will still have project responsibilities but with the buy in I will also be brought into overall company decisions etc.

    Reply ↓
    1. Generic Name*

      I worked for a small (less than 80 people) consulting company, and while they never actually offered me the opportunity to buy in (one of the reasons why I don’t work there anymore), so I gave it a lot of thought when the company announced that they would be offering ownership to a select group. Here are my thoughts:

      -Do you 100% believe in the current leadership/ownership group? Do you think they generally make good decisions, treat people fairly, and do they actually know how to run a business?
      -How much money do you have to front for a buy in? Would you have to take out a loan to buy in? Do they offer a payment plan (that they take from your paycheck) to buy in?
      -Are there any major changes for the company on the horizon for your company? At my former company, they were selling voting/ownership shares to make the transition from an S-corp owned by an individual to an ESOP, so this meant that the company lost their small business/minority/women owned designation as well as the founder retiring and a new CEO taking their place. The company wasn’t as prepared for this transition as they thought they were.
      -I would talk to a financial advisor about the risks and benefits. If you have documentation of how the ownership share is set up, bring it to an expert. I now work for a much, much larger ESOP, and my advisor recently told me to buy in if I’m ever offered the opportunity for my company because the rate of return for the investment is 20% (versus 6% for stocks/mutual funds).
      -Do you foresee yourself working for this company for a long time, possibly until retirement? Do you like and respect the other principals/owners? Not that this type of decision is friendship based, but If you dislike or not trust the other people running the company, that’s not a good sign.
      -From what you see, does the company have what it takes to thrive long term? I ultimately didn’t want to buy into my last company because I didn’t think they’d last another 10 years after the founder retired. They are pretty clearly going downhill as we speak.

      Reply ↓
  40. N C Kiddle*

    Volunteering is mostly still going well but I am still not over how happy they are to have my small contribution. Last week I went in the shop as a regular customer and stuck my head into the back to say hi. The bloke who runs the warehouse said that he would be short staffed the following day and asked if there was any chance I could come in. I didn’t have any other plans, so I agreed, and we got a fair amount done. (He also noticed that I haven’t been issued with work boots yet and have been working in trainers, which is apparently not ideal.) He thanked me profusely, and when I came in for my regular shift a couple of days later, so did the bloke who should have been working who was the reason they were short. Like, three or four separate mentions of how big a favour I’d done them.

    Is this a volunteering thing, like there’s no money so they have to be extra nice? Or is it a normal workplace thing and I just have imposter syndrome?

    Reply ↓
    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      A normal workplace shouldn’t have you working for free? I have no background on your situation but this is weird. I mean, fwiw you gave them the labor of multiple people for free when they were in a tight spot, I think it only makes sense they’re so grateful!

      Reply ↓
      1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

        I’m glad I’m not the only one that clocked that this is weird. (I wrote my comment below before I saw yours.) I hope N C Kiddle comes back and replies with more details. Reading it again, I notice even more weirdness. Volunteer-driven non profits don’t have “customers” in the traditional sense, so I’m very curious to know what kind of place this is.

        Reply ↓
        1. Hlao-roo*

          It may be a non-profit thrift store like Goodwill or the Salvation Army. Those places (and others like them) can legally have volunteers, employees, and “customers” in the traditional sense.

          Reply ↓
          1. Cordelia*

            yes thats what I immediately thought, I didn’t see anything strange about it tbh. It sounded to me like NC Kiddle is a volunteer who went above and beyond – coming in on a day they weren’t scheduled and working hard behind the scenes – and the place is genuinely grateful. I think it is a volunteering thing to get more thanks and gratitude than you would in a paid workplace, it’s in lieu of actual pay!

            Reply ↓
    2. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      Unpaid labor is not and will never be a “normal workplace thing.” Different standards apply with volunteers. You can find multiple letters in the archives of this site that show what I mean by that. Any organization that runs, in part or in whole, on volunteer labor is naturally going to be extremely grateful for what would be considered bare minimum in a paid workplace (e.g. showing up on time, not displaying any overt antisocial tendencies, being moderately functional).

      That said, your question flagged a couple of weird things for me. Warehouse labor is a highly unusual place to find volunteers. Flowing from that, it’s unusual for a volunteer to need to be issued industrial PPE-type supplies like boots. And the multiple references to concerns about shorting and coverage are typically only concerns for paid workplaces. What is it that you’re doing, exactly? How did you get involved with this? Have you noticed anything strange beyond their “excessive gratitude”?

      Reply ↓
    3. MigraineMonth*

      If you’re in the US, only non-profits can accept unpaid labor, and the volunteers cannot be doing the same work that regular employees are doing. Along with other commenters, I am skeptical that this is all above board, particularly since you seem to be doing volunteer labor that requires special protective gear; I’m betting there’s also training they’re required to give you on how to do that work without getting injured that they’ve decided to skip.

      I’m glad you’re getting appreciated! A certain level of appreciation is typical of workplaces; a “thanks!” when you do a task for someone and more effusive thanks if you do it on a short timeline or do a spectacular job is standard. Unfortunately, this level of thanks seems like it might be trying to love-bomb you into working for the company for free, which is clearly against your best interests.

      Your labor is valuable; that’s why they’re thanking you. You should be paid for it.

      Reply ↓
    4. WellRed*

      Is this “volunteering” allowed if you also work there? But you really should be paid. Of course they are grateful. You’re offering free labor!

      Reply ↓
  41. Mad Scientist*

    Let’s talk about career fairs!

    I do some career fairs for my employer, and I also do some for a separate volunteer organization (we don’t directly hire anyone, but we help students find career opportunities in the industry). The organization I volunteer with also plans and hosts an annual hiring event, it’s a somewhat unique format for a career fair, and it was really popular back when I was a student several years ago. Apparently interest has gone down in recent years, and the folks involved in planning the event haven’t been able to figure out why (other than blaming COVID).

    So, if you’re a student, I’m curious to hear from you about this! What makes you decide whether or not to attend a career fair? Is there anything that would make these events more rewarding or engaging for you? What would you change about them? How far would you be willing to travel (if at all) and what do you typically do to prepare for these events (if at all)? Do you feel like it’s an effective method of job searching for you?

    And folks who do these events on the hiring side, I want to hear about your experiences! The good, bad, and ugly! Any weird trends you’ve noticed at these events, any funny stories? Any weird interactions with students or even other employers at the fair? Is it an effective recruiting method for you?

    Reply ↓
    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I haven’t been a student in a long time, but I remember going to lots of career fairs as one and as a fresh graduate or early in my career and I honestly found most of them to be useless. Maybe it’s because I graduated into a horrible recession and job market, but it seemed like every company there was looking for someone with incredibly specific experience, or lots of experience in general. Anyone that had something I might qualify for told me to just apply online. I might as well have looked at the list of companies attending and just checked their websites from the comfort of my own home for all the good going in person did me.

      Maybe I just went to a lot of crummy job fairs or maybe I went in a bad market, but I feel like the only thing that would encourage me to attend would be clear expectations of what I could get out of the fair:

      1. Who the companies are specifically looking to hire: like actual job listings/titles or the experience requirements so I can select out if I don’t fit anything. Or at least check my expectations! It’s disheartening to do all the prep work (print out resumes, have a quick spiel about yourself ready, get dressed up, travel, etc) to attend a career fair to only find out there’s nothing there for you.
      2. Who I’m going to meet: I’ve met and talked with a lotttt of people manning the booths who were only part of the event/promo committee and had no part of the hiring process or could tell me anything about the roles or culture beyond the standard fluffy “of course we’re wonderful to work for!” – it’s not that they weren’t lovely but chatting with them didn’t put me any closer to landing a job than I would have had just applying online
      3. Overall, what the benefit of going to this fair will actually be Are these jobs not listed online? Are they only looking to hire from people who attend the fair? Will there be people who can give honest insight into what working at the company is actually like? Are there going to be real networking opportunities? And I mean real, putting a group of job-hunters in a room does not a real networking opportunity make.

      I’m not trying to be super negative! I am 1000% open to believing I’ve just had bad experiences or it was a product of graduating in 2010. I’d be very interested to hear if other people have had good experiences with career fairs.

      Reply ↓
  42. Hopeful but a little bitter*

    I currently work in the fed government as a 7/9/11 and am going to grad school . Many of the upper level employees have time in grade to be 12s 13s or had a grad degree already and started at a higher grade. It was harder to get into grad school than I expected and it’s a lot of work. My degree directly correlates with the position and I like the program but no one here seems to care. I am hopeful that I can make it to 11 and then can move to 12 or 13 bc of masters but am unsure. Nothing in education is certain but how do I not feel bitter ? It’s relatively cheap online program but it takes up all of my non work time . I guess I wish I could know that someday it will be worth it ?

    Reply ↓
  43. Applesauced*

    Has anyone gone into labor in the office?

    I preemptively decided to work from home after 38 weeks, and everyone has been understanding. Part of that is comfort (I spend all day fidgeting and adjusting to get slightly more comfortable), wanting to be near my partner (full time WFH) , near the hospital, and part is a fear of going into labor or my water breaking in the office. Rational or not?

    Reply ↓
    1. Alex*

      I think all those reasons are rational and reasonable. Not that going into labor at work should be embarrassing or shameful or anything, but I can understand why you’d rather not! I think most people would rather not.

      Reply ↓
    2. MsM*

      Totally rational! Babies do not care where you are or what you are doing when they’re ready to show up. And even if you weren’t worried about it, like you said, it’s better to be where you’re comfortable.

      Reply ↓
    3. Seashell*

      I’ve given birth twice, worked for as long as I could, and no labor started during business hours. I’ve worked with various pregnant women, and none went into labor while at work that I can recall.

      If there’s no issue with working from home, I’d say that’s a good idea though.

      Reply ↓
    4. i am a human*

      I didn’t (my babies all had to be induced at 42 weeks, I gestate like an elephant), but a friend of mine’s water broke when she stood up after a meeting. She worked for a non-profit in family support services, so every coworker was a mom or worked with moms, so it wasn’t weird for her. I don’t see anything wrong with WFH in the last couple weeks (although in my case it would have turned into FOUR weeks, thanks, babies). Good luck with your pregnancy and labor!!

      Reply ↓
    5. numbers lady*

      A million years ago (40!) I had my water break while at work. It was not fun. I think that it’s great you’re able to work from home instead. I didn’t technically go into labor for many more hours, but I wouldn’t wish that experience on anyone. :)

      Reply ↓
  44. blueskies*

    Looking for any and all tips on working with a coworker who *loathes* you.
    Long story short, I have to work on a very high-profile, high-visibility project, and the point person is a coworker who has a long history of really, really disliking me. Unfortunately, it’s all personal stuff that I didn’t have any control over: I got engaged & married in the midst of her awful divorce, then I bought a house right when she was forced to downsize, and then I started a successful side hustle a couple years after her daughter’s small business failed. I do feel very bad for her, and I’ve never spoken about any of these life events in front of her, as a way to try to be sensitive. But nonetheless, she has spread nasty rumors about me (like that my grandboss only keeps me around for “eye candy”) and tried to undermine me at every single opportunity. My manager is well aware, as is HR (some behaviors became work-related and my manager looped them in). But now I’ve been assigned to work on a massively important project with her. She is already upset with some decisions that the Executive Director has made, so I can’t imagine she’s going to be easy to work with. Any tips are much appreciated!

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      Honestly, it sounds like you’ve maybe been a little too considerate of her feelings. If she tries to start in with any nasty personal insinuations or grumbling about your personal life, remind her you’ve never shown her anything but professional courtesy, and you expect the same. If she tries to grumble about the ED or anything that’s not in your control, point out that it’s not in your control and you need to focus on X. And anything where you need her cooperation and she’s being recalcitrant for reasons that don’t pertain to the project or have already been signed off on by other people, pull in your allies.

      Reply ↓
    2. i am a human*

      I have a couple of people at work like this (they’re similar to one another so I have some theories as to why they hate me) and all you can do is be calm and professional. Don’t coddle her, just treat her like of course she will also be calm and professional. Leave the door open for her to make good choices with a backup plan to move forward if she refuses to engage appropriately. You will come out on top. I appreciate you’ve been sympathetic to her, but don’t let that sympathy get in the way of you doing what needs to be done on this project.

      Reply ↓
    2. Jennifer Strange*

      It depends. I went from a place where my company covered 80% of the premium for me, my husband, and my child (which ended up being about $4000 annual from me) to one where they would only cover 85% of my premium. With just me and my child on it it’s now about $6,500.

      Reply ↓
    3. Don't make me come over there*

      I’m not sure how closely this correlates to your situation, but I’m single and work for a small star-up that doesn’t offer benefits so I get my insurance through the ACA marketplace (healthcare.gov). For a gold plan for 1 person I pay $6600/yr, which includes a small subsidy. It would be $7000/yr without.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ouch*

        Where are you all getting your insurance? I’ve been getting quotes for family of 4 that are running about $3k/month. These policies have $10k deductibles as well. Maybe its just being in rural midwest, but I’m being told there are really only a couple of companies to choose from in our area.

        Reply ↓
    4. Name (Required)*

      It’s about $5,000/year at my employer, which is a lot less than my last employer. I think $7500 is reasonable if the coverage is good.

      Reply ↓
    5. WantonSeedStitch*

      Mine is $6,576/year, and there’s a $300 deductible for the whole family for in-network services, but it doesn’t actually apply for a lot of things (mostly ER and hospital visits).

      Reply ↓
    7. Kay*

      For 2 of us – just medical (not including dental/vision) on a high deductible HSA plan we pay 7580. I wouldn’t call the plan great either.

      Reply ↓
    8. Parenthesis Guy*

      There’s a lot of difference in health care plans. A plan that has a deductible of $8k and an in-network max of $16k with coinsurance at 60% should have much lower premiums than a plan with a deductible of $0k and a $2k in network out of pocket max.

      For a cadillac plan $7.5k per year is fine. For a junky plan, that’s a lot.

      Reply ↓
  46. Former musician*

    I am looking for advice on how to network for a career pivot. I am in my late 30s with a background in performing arts and arts education. I’ve spent the last 5ish years running a very successful small business teaching music classes and lessons, but I am pretty burnt out from the constant hustle and long hours that come with being self-employed and juggling performing gigs. I’m hoping to transition into office work in admin or bookkeeping, at least initially, and rebuild a new career with better work-life balance and a more stable paycheck from there.

    I have all of the soft skills that would make me an amazing employee in either of those roles – detail oriented, self-motivated, solid customer service skills, organizated, reliable, excellent communication, etc, and can back that up with concrete evidence from successes in my business.

    But – I’m not getting hits at all with applications, and I think it may be partially because my work experience isn’t in a traditional office setting. I’ve reached out to a few staffing agencies that do admin placements and haven’t even had much luck there.

    I keep reading that networking is important for finding a job but I’m not quite sure what that means, practically speaking, or how to do it when I’m trying to pivot into a new field. Can anyone offer any practical suggestions for things I can do to help get my foot in the door somewhere?

    I’m currently doing a few small volunteer roles and will be taking some online courses this fall to level up useful skills. Possibly relevant background info is that I moved recently for a relationship that didn’t pan out, so I’m really starting from scratch with connections in this location.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      For bookkeeping in particular, I think it’s less about your experience being nontraditional and more about making sure you’re emphasizing the right skills. It’s great that you’re personable, but what I really need to know is if you’re proficient in Quickbooks and have examples of how you’ve created more efficient processes for tracking invoices or tax compliance requirements. The fact that you’re going from being in charge to a role that doesn’t necessarily have a lot of decision-making power might also be making employers concerned about whether you really know what you’re getting into and will want to stick around, so if you have the opportunity to address that in a cover letter, you should.

      In terms of networking, you could look for professional meetups in the area and ask for advice or see if people in the kind of roles you want would be willing to do informational interviews with you.

      Reply ↓
    2. Excel Gardener*

      Are you emphasizing the admin responsibilities you had as a business owner?

      I wonder if you could also tweak your title on your resume. Maybe put your title as “Small Business Owner” or “Sole Proprietor” instead of “Music Teacher”, if you’re not doing that. Basically framing it as “I administered a business that happened to provide music lessons” rather than “I was an independent music teacher who owned a business”.

      Reply ↓
    3. Name (Required)*

      I’m wondering if you can combine both things by looking for a job as an admin or bookkeeper at a music store or school, or a performing arts theater. You’d probably be a good candidate because you would understand how things worked better than someone without that experience. It might be a good way to ease into the new career.

      Reply ↓
    4. Cordelia*

      you talk about the soft skills you have, but don’t mention the actual hard skills (is that a thing?!) If you’re doing the same in your applications, maybe that’s an issue? Do you have actual skills in admin and/or bookkeeping? I’m sure you do, having run your own business – maybe you need to emphasise those more.

      Reply ↓
    5. Hlao-roo*

      For networking, I suggest reading these past posts:

      “I hate the idea of networking — it feels slimy” from March 13, 2018

      “what’s the best networking experience you’ve had?” from March 25, 2021

      “is networking overrated?” from February 8, 2022

      Unrelated to networking, do the roles you’re applying for have an option to submit a cover letter? If so, a cover letter seems like the best place to lay out all of the good soft skills you have and how they relate to the job you’re applying for.

      Reply ↓
  47. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

    Inspired by the interview at the animal rescue question, have you ever worn something to an interview that turned out to be a poor decision?

    I dressed up as I thought I should (business casual) for an internship interview, including heels. However, my interviewer unexpectedly not only took me on a facility tour, but included tromping through the freshly turned soil in the community garden. (One of that director’s biggest criticisms of me at the end of that internship was that I dressed up too much.)

    Reply ↓
    1. SusieQQ*

      I wore dress slacks, a blouse, and a blazer to a job interview. During the interview, they revealed that they have a dress code that requires women to wear either a dress or skirts. Dress slacks are not allowed.

      They didn’t offer me the job, and I would have declined it anyway.

      This was an agricultural magazine publishing company in Nebraska, by the way. The last time I checked their Glassdoor reviews, which was admittedly a long time ago, they still had the same dress code. And in case anyone’s wondering, men were required to wear a suit and tie.

      Makes me wonder what they ask of non-binary folks, heh.

      Reply ↓
      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        In the 21st century?! I suspect that if someone asked them what their rules are for non-binary people, their brains would explode at the idea that such people might exist.

        Reply ↓
    2. Pay no attention...*

      Yes. Similar to you I dressed up for an interview in business wear for an office job and they took me on a walking tour of the adjacent manufacturing facility that required hard hat, safety glasses and steel-toed shoes. Lucky for me, they absolutely didn’t expect I would come dressed in PPE so they provided the hat and glasses and there were marked spaces where a person out of steel-toed shoes could walk/stand.

      Another time, I was dressed business wear again and the company was very trendy street style. I knew right away this wasn’t the job for me, and the interviewer was very nice but indicated they didn’t think it was a good match either, so we wrapped it up quickly.

      Reply ↓
    3. i am a human*

      When he was just about to graduate college, my husband wore a suit to an interview on a Friday. It was casual Friday and every last interviewer poked fun at him for being so dressed up. He got the job, but like, how was he supposed to know??

      Reply ↓
  48. Throwaway Name*

    I posted here last week about the feelings of guilt I have over having a cushy job but not working very hard, both in terms of hours and worked and effort exerted. Thank you to everyone who commented, especially the person who suggested I talk to a therapist. I regularly see a therapist, so I did just that!

    My therapist helped me to reframe things in my mind, and to really focus in on the fact that I’m compensated for the value I provide, not how long or hard I work. She also helped me come up with some strategies to generally describe the work that I do so I can stop lying to my co-workers, since that feels so bad to me. Instead of giving a list of specific tasks I do that are largely untrue, I can speak in very general terms about the work that I’m actually doing. As an extreme example, instead of saying something like “I spent 10 seconds replying to an email confirming the date of an event” which makes me feel like I have to lie about what I did with the rest of my time, I can just say that I did event planning. Then if anyone has questions or wants me to go into more detail, the onus is on them to ask.

    Reply ↓
    1. Throwaway Name*

      Also worth noting that when you have a job history of being chronically overworked, NOT being overworked can feel like you’re not working hard enough. #corporatetraumaisreal

      Reply ↓
  49. Quaremie*

    Not sure if this is already been asked and I missed it. I manage a remote team, and at least one of them was severely impacted by last night’s storm – her house was essentially destroyed. (Another individual I have not been able to get in touch with and I know she was in an area that is in the news as being very flooded). What are some ways that I can support these team members? For the person whose house was destroyed, we’ve given her at least the next week off (with pay, outside of regular PTO allowances) to begin to take care of some of the things that will need to be taken care of. I checked with HR and there is no specific help or resources our company has for this sort of situation. is there anything else we could do that would be helpful in the situation?

    Hope everyone is safe out there.

    Reply ↓
    1. Bookworm*

      Depending on where she ends up, perhaps the company could pay for better internet service/ship her a good hotspot? Did the company provide her with a work laptop or did she work on her own machine? If she provided her own machine, perhaps the company could ship her a laptop?

      Reply ↓
        1. Bookworm*

          I wasn’t sure if employee had evacuated and taken her work laptop or if her house was destroyed by a tree(s) while she was in it.

          Reply ↓
          1. Quaremie*

            I am almost sure she was in it judging by the damage she described at 6 am this morning. It must have been absolutely terrifying. Certainly if her equipment was damaged it would be replaced ASAP.

            Reply ↓
      2. illuminate (they/them)*

        This, definitely. A friend of mine is in western NC and she has no power from the storm and even 911 is down. If the company can help pay for phone service, a hotspot, a hotel room, a rental car even for a few days, it may be a massive relief.

        Reply ↓
  50. From one GM to another*

    I’d love to hear about how folks are effectively using AI in their job searches. Clearly it’s not great to use it to write a cover letter or resume for you, but what about using it to cut down relevant experience bullets to two pages, or to help you know how close of a match for a job you might be? How are you using it to speed up or make your job search less discouraging?

    Reply ↓
  51. Polly Sprocket*

    I need advice on how to handle a social situation at work. I’m on a fully remote team, and my boss has started scheduling weekly Zoom “hangouts” for us – a purely social hour, since we don’t have the usual in-person chit-chat opportunities. Attendance is not technically required, but I try to attend every 2-3 times (although I absolutely loathe these hangouts).

    My problem now is that I recently lost a pregnancy due to medical complications at 6 months, but there are a lot of babies on my team – one coworker’s wife had a baby this summer, and another coworker is pregnant and due in December. My baby was supposed to be due in November. My boss knew I was pregnant, but my coworkers don’t know. I’m very anxious about these team hangouts now, because without a structured meeting agenda, I’m worried it’s going to become a lot of baby talk, which I really would like to avoid for mental health reasons. But I’m also worried about looking anti-social or missing out on other important team relationship-building if I don’t attend at all. Any thoughts on how to approach this?

    Reply ↓
    1. Seven times*

      Be really upfront with your boss about your need for privacy around this first! I don’t know what your relationship is with them, but it may help for them to look at ways to discuss your absence from these events to the team.

      Also, consider seeing if you can “drop in”. Make an appearance, but be clear that you can’t be there the whole time. Again, if your boss can be supportive in this without sharing your private information, it’s even better.

      Most of all, make sure that your boundaries are explicit with your boss. Some people don’t know what’s appropriate to share!

      Reply ↓
      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Seconding the drop in. Do a quick hello, hang out for like five minutes, and then depart when you feel comfortable — either after five minutes or, if you’re enjoying yourself and do want to stay a bit longer, when the baby talk starts. You don’t have to formally leave the meeting by announcing your departure, just end the call on your end while someone else is commanding the room. If you were all meeting in person, you’d probably have an opportunity to sneak away while the chatting was going on, so think of it in that way.

        Reply ↓
    2. From one GM to another*

      “Oh I’m getting a phone call” “Someone’s at the door I have to drop” “I have another commitment so I’ll have to catch you all next time” repeat as often as you need to when baby stuff comes up. You can drop it in the chat and then just leave.

      Reply ↓
    3. Cordelia*

      do people always come and stay for the whole hour? or can you drop in, stay if you are involved in useful relationship-building conversations, and leave if the talk becomes upsetting? Say at the beginning “I’ve just come along to say hi, I can’t stay long but nice to see everyone”, then at least your presence is noted

      Reply ↓
  52. Anon for this one*

    My organisation has a major event every other year. It’s always on a weekend, and it changes location each event from our home city to another major city across the country. When we travel for it, two people attend from each department. When it is held in our home city, it is expected that everyone attend at least some of it.

    This year, it’s in our home city for the first time since I’ve worked here. Myself and another manager, who is new, are both having the same issue of… our staff all made plans that weekend. They don’t understand why they should have to work on a weekend. These are not junior positions who are the problem. They are all director-level managers and above, and I can’t believe I need to have a conversation about this when it has been stated so plainly from the C-suite.

    I am finding it hard to find the words to address this that don’t start with “first of all, what the hell?” Can someone please help me with this? As a reminder this is ONE weekend every other year, that is posted for the next 5 years on our master calendar. It is not simply that they didn’t know.

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Do you even have standing to address this if they’re all director-level managers and above? If it’s coming from the C-suite and they report to the C-suite, this sounds like a C-suite problem.

      That said, I’d re-examine the necessity of everyone attending just because it’s in your home city. Why does everyone need to be there? Is it to glad hand other attendees? Does it look bad on your company to not be there because companies in other host cities attend in droves when they’re locally held? Is it because you don’t have to pay flights and hotels so you’re sending a ton of people simply because you can? etc. I’m sure there are many good reasons to attend, I just think it’s also worth re-examining why it’s so necessary if you get by with just two reps in other years.

      I can’t tell from the description if you’re attending as guests/attendees or if there’s work your team has to do while there. If there’s work, you may have more standing to raise it with the C-suite folks so that the burden doesn’t fall to just you and the other manager.

      Reply ↓
      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I agree. Just because it’s on the calendar doesn’t mean that any will either look at the calendar or make the connection that they are required to go.

        And you still need to understand that some plans are not able to be rearranged. (For example, if someone is attending a wedding that weekend.)

        Reply ↓
      2. Anon for this one*

        Sorry for a little clarification – they are directors who report to me. There are work responsibilities when attending.

        Reply ↓
    2. Hiring Mgr*

      It’s a bit confusing because if these are all senior people, haven’t they done this before so they know what’s entailed?

      Or could it be that the time commitment is different when it’s in your home city.. Maybe they think they don’t have to travel so they could still have plans and also attend a little bit?

      Or is the requirement for everyone to attend just on paper, and if you’re senior enough you can get out of it?

      Sorry all I have are more questions :)

      Reply ↓
      1. Anon for this one*

        Definitely required! It makes our department look REALLY bad if the directors don’t attend, and the work they were supposed to be doing falls on other people. I will hear about it from the CEO. They don’t need to be there for the whole thing, but there are particular things that they need to be at.

        Reply ↓
    3. shrambo*

      “It is expected that everyone attend at least some of it.” Does “expected” mean that you explicitly told all staff that everyone, yes EVERYONE, would need to block off that entire weekend and plan to do nothing but attend the event? Because that seems to be what you were expecting them to do. If not, then it’s on you, not them. People have lives and it’s not unreasonable for them to do non-work things on the weekend.

      Reply ↓
    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      I feel like in your position, I probably would have sent out a reminder to my staff at least a few months in advance–maybe six months even–to say something like, “as a reminder, the Big Event is happening here in Metropolis this October. The dates are 10/26-27, and that’s on our master calendar. While we only send a couple of people from each department to the more distant Big Events, the CEO expects EVERYONE to attend at least part of that weekend when it’s here in Metropolis. Please be mindful of that and keep your calendars clear that weekend. If you have prior commitments that absolutely can’t be moved, let me know, but otherwise I want to make sure everyone is there.”

      The requirement to attend is not unreasonable, but clear communication in advance is important to ensure that everyone is able to meet that requirement. It sounds like the occurrence of this event in your city, and the all-hands requirement, is a rare thing, and BECAUSE it’s such a rare thing, the communication from the top is even more important. Did that happen? Was it clear that your reports actually knew about this (not that they SHOULD have known, but that they DID know) when they made their plans?

      Reply ↓
      1. Kay*

        This. I probably would have done it at the start of the year to say something similar, then followed up at the 6 month mark, etc.

        Reply ↓
  53. Is it Friday yet?*

    Happy Friday! This might be more for those in the non profit world, but not sure.

    An office working group (including myself) is going to propose to senior leadership some kind of staff representative or staff omnsbudman position. We (and also a bunch of other similar non profits) are having staff retention issues partially as a result of no transparency in office/ work decisions and policies. RTO is a good example, where decisions for who was approved to stay remote was arbitrary and perceived as unfair.

    So our idea is to suggest a staff voice or something similar. But I don’t know anyone at an organization that has this – do you? If yes, how does it work? And is it working? Thanks!

    Reply ↓
  54. Party Pooper*

    My organization loves celebrating employees, and for people’s big milestone anniversaries (20 years, 25, 30, etc.) we offer luncheons/parties, but only if the employee wants to. This month we had 2 big ones (20 and 30 years, respectively). The 30 year employee is high-up in the org, and she was quite insistent to me (Exec Assist) and my boss (the President) that she didn’t want a luncheon or party, so we got her a beautiful bouquet and crystal plaque, and presented them to her privately, to honor her wishes of “no big deal” which she was very happy with. She doesn’t like to be the center of attention, which we respect. (The 20 year employee did as for a luncheon, which we did).

    Flash forward to this morning, and I see our facilities guy hauling in tables, and another employee bringing in a cake, and I found out that this other employee (who I will call Party Planner) planned a “secret luncheon/party” for the 30 year employee, and didn’t tell me or my boss or invite us. The 30 year employee wasn’t told, either (it being a secret and all). If we had been told in advance, we would have squashed it, because it’s against her wishes. Everything came to light too late, and the 30 year employee is handling it well, but in the meantime, neither my boss or I can attend because we have an off-site lunch meeting and site visit that was booked days ago. We can’t cancel at this point.

    I am really, really annoyed and hurt by the Party Planner, who I believe did this with the best of intentions thinking, perhaps, that we overlooked having a luncheon for the employee. In that case, Party Planner should have come to us and we could have explained why no luncheon was hosted. But she just made assumptions, planned an unwanted party, and didn’t communicate with us at all. 30 year employee came down to tell us that “apparently I’m having a luncheon today? will you both be there, at least?” and was visibly let down to find out her boss and I (two people she would consider as in her “inner circle”) will not be attending, because we were not told or invited.

    I just needed to vent about this. We’ll be having a conversation with the Party Planner next week about why this was inappropriate.

    Reply ↓
    1. Pay no attention...*

      Myself, I wouldn’t actually give Party Planner the benefit of thinking they had the best of intentions. PP wanted cake and party for herself and she didn’t get what she wanted so she secretly planned one around you on a day she knew you’d be out…maliciously. This is all about her ego, and not 30-year. I would have told 30-year that she’s entitled to skip the party if she so chooses and you will back her up — it wasn’t too late to put a stop to it if they were only setting up tables, you just squash it right then and go to your appointment.

      Reply ↓
    2. ferrina*

      Ugh, this is so frustrating!

      That said, I can see why Party Planner did this. Your optics weren’t great- publicly celebrating one employee but not another. You knew that you did things for both employees, but it sounds like a fair amount of the organization had no idea. They only saw you celebrating one person.

      You need a better policy around the comms on this. Maybe an email announcement celebrating each person and stating that they get to choose their options, or just something to show the other employees that you arent’ just skippign the 30-year employee

      Reply ↓
    3. Hiring Mgr*

      I wouldn’t come down too hard on them. To Party Planner and the other employees it may have looked like one person was celebrated and another wasn’t, so they just wanted to have a little celebration of their own.

      Is there a way you can communicate differently to the team next time this comes up?

      Reply ↓
      1. WellRed*

        But why wouldn’t party planner ask the executive assistant about this before jumping to conclusions. Especially if it’s known that it’s up to the employee? Though I do agree communication could be better.

        Reply ↓
        1. Hiring Mgr*

          He should have talked to EA or boss for sure. I can also imagine he was trying to do something fun/kind but didn’t think it through

          Reply ↓
        2. Party Pooper*

          I do want to note, we did send a blast out about the 2 employees. The 20 year employee got a giant write-up about her tenure here, and the 30 year employee got a short write-up, which included, “[Employee] isn’t one for the spotlight, but [short announcement about her 30th year and how valuable she is]” that the 30 year employee approved of being sent out. At the 20 year employee’s luncheon, 30 year employee was seated at a table that included Party Planner and spoke about how she opted out of the party because she didn’t want the spotlight. I didn’t feel like I needed to make an announcement that 30 year didn’t want a party because she doesn’t like attention, because it’s just… calling attention to her? If that makes sense? Anyway, I just wanted to add that bit about communication.

          Reply ↓
          1. ferrina*

            That’s important context!

            In the future, I’d make sure that there was a standard length. It’s not about “calling attention” to the celebrants- it’s about sending a clear message to the rest of the staff about the value of the celebrants. They won’t read between the lines about being “not one for the spotlight”.

            But the bit about Party Planner knowing the 30-year didn’t want a party is not okay. The Planner knew and didn’t care (though I bet they’ll claim that they had no idea the 30-year didnt’ want a party). I think you can make a blanket statement that there are not to be surprise parties at the office. And for fun, might want to mention this to HR. Not as a complaint, but as a “huh, here’s an interesting thing that happened” so they have it on their radar (sidenote- always make friends with your local HR person so you can casually drop info like this as needed). I suspect this person may have a bit of a track record, either of not great judgement or outright instigating.

            Reply ↓
        3. ferrina*

          Is it known that it’s up to the employee? I didn’t see anything about that in the first post. This is also the kind of internal process that’s often assumed to be known by the coordinator, but in reality is only known if you’ve been on the receiving end.

          Without knowing anything else about the Party Planner, I’d assume good intentions. They might not have realized that this is part of Party Pooper’s job, or assumed that 30-year employee was forgotten about and they saw an easy way to make up for it. Though if Party Planner is known to create drama, it’s possible there was more there.

          Reply ↓
  55. Our Business Is Rejoicing*

    Just wanted to pop in with some good news. Two years ago today, I had my final interview for the position I now have and love (and used Alison’s advice on what questions to ask during the interview!). Today, I got promoted!

    This position was a considerable pivot for me from the work I used to do previously. I’d been let go just as I was starting to realize I was a bit burnt out and wanted to be doing another type of work. I took a pay cut to take the job (although not a massive one, when you consider the benefits package was better), and between the promotion (which came with a big raise) and a considerably-more-than-inflation raise I got earlier in the year, I’m back up to a similar salary as my old job.

    Reply ↓
  56. Clueless*

    Hello everyone, does anyone have a recommendation for a comfortable pair of shoes that can be worn at a 2-day conference? Would love to hear ideas with links if possible – thanks in advance!

    Reply ↓
    1. I edit everything*

      I have a pair of black Hoka Solimar (women’s) shoes that I love. Unlike many other Hoka styles, these are pretty low profile and don’t have the super chunky soles. If you’re planning to wear slacks, they will go unremarked upon, unless you’re in a very formal industry.

      Reply ↓
    2. LuckyPurpleSocks*

      If you wear women’s shoes, I really like the LifeStride flats, especially the I-Loyal Flat (LifeStride.com). I wear wide width shoes, and I’ve had a few pairs of these or very similar LifeStride shoes in my work wardrobe for a few years now. If you wear men’s shoes, my husband’s go to are Sketchers work shoes, like the Nampa-Groton SR (Sketchers.com). I also try to keep in my bag some Moleskin Padding or blister prevention tape (available at most drug stores), because even the most comfortable shoes can get uncomfortable after a full day of running around a conference.

      Reply ↓
  57. Jaya*

    So. It’s been four and a half months. I’m still job hunting. And I’m on the verge of giving up even though giving up isn’t an option because I need an income. Retail has rejected me. Jobs in my field have rejected me. The rest are ghosts.
    The business owner ghosted me. And it wasn’t just once. She said three times in a row she would call on a certain day, and didn’t. Her last text was Monday at five AM. I’ve given up on her. While I’d be great at the job, I can’t trust her to be reliable.
    The other in-person position has sent nothing. It’s the end of the month, and I interviewed a month ago. I’m just waiting on the advice of people here who said don’t follow-up and they’ll reach out if I’m a top candidate. But I am tempted to send something because this new norm of everyone ghosting feels rude and inconsiderate.
    I don’t know how to plan out October. It feels like I’ve done all the right things and nothing has worked. Any insight would be great.

    Reply ↓
    1. Lady Lessa*

      Have you signed up with multiple temp agencies? If so, then I am sorry that you are having a hard time.

      If not, that might help you get something, even if it is temporary and/or out of your field. I talked one into sending me to a warehouse job, just to bring money in.

      Reply ↓
      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        Co-signing on the temp agencies. I was able to survive several months without permanent employment thanks to temping, and the last temp position I had didn’t become permanent, but it did lead to me finding a related permanent job with the organization that has since become a career. It was in a field I’d never considered because I didn’t really know it existed, but which is a great fit for my skills and interests.

        Reply ↓
    3. ferrina*

      I’m sorry. Unfortunately, that can be how it goes in job hunting, especially in a tough economy.

      The thing is- job hunting requires luck. And you have no control over that. You can have the best materials in the world, and the company won’t move forward with you because they already picked a candidate/froze budget/didn’t do a good job writing the job description/spilled coffee on your resume and never looked at it/have unrealistic expectations/etc.

      By all means, definitely look at your resume, cover letter and interview skills. But you will also need luck. And that is something that you have no control over. I’m so sorry, and I hope the tide of luck turns in your favor soon!

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        Seconding this post! A few other things to keep in mind:

        * As a general rule of thumb, if you are getting phone screens and interviews but not offers, look at brushing up your interviewing skills first. If you aren’t getting phone screens and interviews, the look at brushing up your cover letter and resume first.

        * Ghosting is rude and inconsiderate. It is also, unfortunately, very normal in hiring.

        * Hiring often takes a long time. Longer than the candidates want it to, for sure, and also often than the hiring managers want it to. Sometimes, what looks like ghosting to the candidate is a budget freeze/the hiring manager waiting to hear back from their 1st choice candidate before they communicate with the 2nd choice candidate/the hiring manager got pulled into a high priority project and doesn’t have time to work on hiring for the next 3 weeks/etc.

        Keep at it, and like ferrina I hope luck breaks in your favor soon!

        Reply ↓
  58. Twiddling my thumbs*

    I am sitting at my desk feeling deep anxiety because my grandboss is marking up a 12-page brochure/booklet I’ve been working on for weeks and is ridiculously behind schedule. Why is it behind schedule? Because the last time my grandboss looked at it, she demanded all kinds of unnecessary changes, many of which later had to be undone. It was *fine* before. It’s *fine* now. I’m really happy with it, in fact, and my direct boss is really happy with it, but grandboss has to put in her two hundred cents.
    Getting this thing done was my first goal of my new job. I know I won’t be blamed for the delays. I have been as proactive as possible. I’m just so annoyed!
    OK–rant over.

    Reply ↓
    1. ferrina*

      This is so normal. I have created many, many documents for high up people. High up people need to feel like they contributed in some way. They need to have a change, or else they feel awkward. It’s not a reflection on you at all. The more nitpicky they get, the better you did- they’re just picking on small stuff because you did amazing with the big stuff. Just roll with it and know that you are doing just fine, and this is totally normal!

      Reply ↓
  59. Time to Write*

    Does anyone have experience with short-form blogs and how they integrate with LinkedIn? I dislike seeing long LinkedIn posts, so I’m thinking a mini-blog is cleaner when content is 1-2 paragraphs. People seem really interested in my thoughts and experiences so this may reduce me having to repeat the same conversations over and over at networking events (or at least make it more conversational rather than people asking me to monologue!).

    I’m not techie at all and trying to figure out whats easy to set up but still looks professional. I know WordPress seems to be the default blog site, but I’m starting to hear about something called SubStack.

    Reply ↓
  60. Elizabeth West*

    Y’all, what does “preliminary check” mean when someone is checking references?

    After two interviews for a job very similar to the one from which I was laid off, I was asked for references. One of mine said they were called and the HR person said this was a “preliminary check.” Since then, I haven’t heard anything, but I figured they would take time this week to go through that part of the process, with me and/or any other candidates. But I’ve never heard it phrased quite that way before. What do you think?

    I’m trying not to think about it and am still applying, btw.

    Reply ↓
  61. Oct 7*

    Jews, Israelis, and anyone impacted by Oct 7, 2023: How are you preparing for the upcoming anniversary? Like many, I am feeling so many conflicting emotions. I have a (remote) team meeting that morning and I am worried I will not be able to focus or, even worse, that I will for some reason get emotional during the call.
    I plan to wear a yellow ribbon pin (although I hope against hope it will be unnecessary by that time). How are you guys coping, and how are you preparing?
    Best wishes to all for good news soon.

    Reply ↓

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