my boss won’t do anything about my lazy team mate, client said I can’t talk to my coworker, and more

by Alison Green on September 17, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My boss won’t do anything about my lazy coworker

I’ve worked for 14 years as an individual contributor on a team of six technologists. We split the day-to-day work evenly amongst ourselves, and are all used to having to take on a bit more if someone calls in sick or something along those lines … we all just push through and it gets done.

What is there to be done about a coworker who is clearly not doing their share due to obvious time mismanagement? One of my fellow techs, William, wanders in anywhere from 10-25 minutes late almost every morning (often with a drive-through coffee in his hand). He frequently takes much longer breaks than we are allowed, and I often observe him wasting time chatting with other colleagues and hiding in corners of the office playing on his cell phone. I have kept track, and this often amounts to a couple of hours per day.

Our supervisor, Thomas, has had many meetings with all six of us in which he clearly lays out his expectations regarding personal chit chat, timeliness, cell phone use, etc. But William doesn’t seem to care. He continues to blatantly disregard expectations, and when called out on it (usually by me, always in a calm, professional manner, referencing the expectations previously laid out by Thomas), his response is to give me the silent treatment, sometimes for days on end, only speaking to me in monosyllables when it’s absolutely necessary. When I bring this up to Thomas (the behaviors I’ve observed, and the subsequent freeze-outs), the only answer I get is something wishy washy along the lines of, “I’m keeping an eye on it.”

I genuinely like my work aside from this, and I care about doing a good job every day and being honest about how I spend my time, so it’s disheartening to see William continually allowed to put in far less effort than the rest of us, with no apparent consequences. What, if anything, can I do? I’d be so grateful for any insight you can provide, even if it’s just a reality check that this is sometimes just the way things are.

This is indeed sometimes just the way things are.

But the reason they’re this way is because your boss sucks. I suppose it’s possible that he’s managing William more actively behind the scenes and you just don’t know about it, but I doubt it given that the problems are continuing, and since Thomas apparently thinks the way to “manage” William is to have group meetings rather than correct William one-on-one. Thomas sounds like a wimp who doesn’t want to address issues with William directly so instead is choosing the weakest possible management approach.

William sucks, but Thomas sucks more.

Related:
my boss sends scolding emails to all of us — and then tells me I shouldn’t take them personally

2. My coworker shared a colleague’s personal info with me

I’m a woman in my 30s working in state government in an upper admin-type role. Our office is great in that we are a strong team and folks enjoy each other’s company, but there isn’t a “we’re family” vibe. We have quite a few men with a common first name, let’s say John.

My coworker Carol is relatively senior in terms of job title, but not my boss. We have a cordial relationship but are not “work friends.” Carol has previously made it clear to the office that it is very important to her that we know when her birthday is and celebrate it.

Last week, I was getting my lunch ready in the kitchen and Carol walked in. We exchange greetings and then she asks me, “So, did we do anything for John?” I’m wracking my brain trying to figure out which John she’s referring to. It can’t be the one who just lost a family member, because his team already organized a condolence card for him, so who could it be?

I must have looked confused, so she clarified, “You know, his dad and the accident. I just thought we should do something.” I told her that I didn’t know what she was talking about, and she said she saw us chatting yesterday, so she thought she’d ask. Now I know which John she’s talking about, but I still have no idea why she thinks I would know about this. John works in a different department, and while we do have a friendly work relationship, we mostly talk about our mutual hobbies and interests, not personal stuff.

I asked another coworker who is usually in the know about these things, and she also had no idea, so I decided to just ask John. I made it clear that this might be a weird question and awkwardly asked if everything was okay with his family. He looked taken aback but explained that yes, his dad was in a bad accident a month ago but is doing very well now. He was gracious about it and I apologized repeatedly and explained that Carol had said something, which he looked annoyed about. He said he’d specifically not told many folks at work because he needed work to be an escape from that stress.

I think that my working relationship with John is still okay, but I’m very annoyed with Carol. If someone shares that sort of thing with you in confidence, you shouldn’t go blabbing it to the rest of the office, let alone a different department! And asking me (admin) if we’ve “done anything” (undertone: “you should do something”) when she (not admin) could very well have organized something herself was annoying.

I don’t know if this is just a different understanding of what a workplace and workplace relationships are, but I don’t expect anyone but (maybe) my closest coworkers to celebrate my birthday or share condolences about a difficult family situation. Am I off-base here? Would appreciate any advice/criticism, either on how I handled the situation or how I could handle future interactions with Carol.

Nah, you’re not off-base. But most of this sounds like it could have simply been miscommunication; if John didn’t make it clear to Carol that he didn’t want the info shared, she may not have realized it. Possibly she should have! But that’s between her and John.

She was wrong to imply you should organize something when you’re not on John’s team, and I’d make a mental note not to share anything with Carol that you don’t want repeated, but otherwise I wouldn’t worry much about any of this.

About your broader question about the way she sees relationships at work versus the way you do: as long as she’s not pressuring other people to do things they don’t want to do (like pushing people to celebrate their own birthdays at work if they don’t want to), I’d mark this all down to people just falling in different places on the spectrum of how they like to connect with colleagues.

3. Getting a degree from a nationally accredited school

I am a 34-year-old single mom who has spent years and over $80k trying to obtain a degree. Unfortunately, I’ve made every possible mistake — transferred schools four times, changed my major multiple times, and dropped out due to financial and life challenges.

Earning a degree is still a bucket list item for me, but with $80k in debt and no degree, the financial burden feels overwhelming. I recently came across an affordable, nonprofit online school called University of the People, where classes cost just $100 each. I could complete a business administration degree, which is exactly what I need for career advancement, and I can definitely afford it.

However, it looks like this school is nationally accredited, rather than regionally accredited. How much are employers going to care that the degree is nationally accredited?

First, for readers who don’t know, regional accreditors generally have much more rigorous standards than national accreditors, and a lot of crappy for-profit schools are nationally accredited because they can’t get regionally accredited.

To your question: It’s less that employers will look up whether a school is regionally or nationally accredited and more that the school itself doesn’t have a strong reputation. (Although it’s at least nonprofit, which is a plus!)

If you just need the degree for box-checking purposes (like if your company won’t promote you beyond a certain level without a degree), it will probably be fine. If you’re hoping it will carry the same weight as a degree from a more traditional school (in terms of academic rigor and general reputation), it won’t. So it really depends on what your reason are for pursuing the degree.

Related:
do employers really care where you went to school?

4. Client said I can’t talk to my coworker

I am a project manager who implements healthcare software with clients around the country.

One client has contracted an internal employee of my company (a coworker of mine) to assist them since two client staff members quit during the first week of the software launching. (I am not surprised given that the client is rude, demanding, and has staff that are not kind to each other.) I met with my coworker one-on-one to see how it was going. I myself have had a rough patch with this client and wanted to make sure that they were not being aggressive and outlandish in their requests.

Well, the client found out I met with my coworker without them there, and they are now saying I cannot meet with her to discuss anything with her without them. I stated that I wanted the coworker to have an opportunity to speak openly about how it was going for her. The client then replied back that if the coworker had questions/concerns, she should bring it up to them.

Was I out of line for checking with the coworker on her experience so far? I wanted to just gather how it was going for her from a project perspective.

It’s completely normal for people within an organization to meet to talk about how work is going, and clients can’t dictate that that not happen (unless it’s confidential work where each person involved in the project needs to be specially cleared, but that doesn’t sound like the case here). The inner workings of your company are none of their business. Are they also going to say her manager can’t check in with her about her work on their project?

Practically speaking, you and your coworker should just not mention future conversations to the client, but this is weird.

5. My employer wants me to pay for a separate phone so they can reach me at night

My employer has recently begun demanding I keep my cell on 24/7 in case they need me to cover reception in an emergency. We do not have emergency matters, just the receptionist might call in sick.

I have declined to keep my phone on so it doesn’t ping me at all hours, which happens because of auto reminders from doctors and texts from family and friends three time zones ahead. I said I would hold a phone from my employer.

My employer is insisting on taking my WFH stipend, or my money, to cover the cost for an excessive phone and plan of their choosing. This is apparently all illegal in my state (California). How do I respond without getting fired and without having to use my funds to pay their bills?

California does indeed have a law that employers must reimburse all business expenses and can’t ask employees to shoulder them. So you could simply say, “We could get in trouble under California law for that, since the state requires employers to cover business expenses, including phones.”

The WFH stipend might complicate this, depending on exactly how that’s structured; it’s possible this could legally fall under the expenses that the stipend should cover (although based on your letter, I’m skeptical that it would; you could check with a lawyer in your state if you want to be sure).

The other option, if you don’t feel like dealing with this, is just to set the number they’d be calling from to emergency bypass so it rings through even if you have Do Not Disturb on. You shouldn’t have to do that (and it will only work if you program in all the possible numbers they might call from), but it’s an option.

Related:
what to do when your employer is breaking the law

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  1. Ali + Nino*

    OP #3, while I don’t have any advice, I just want to say mad respect to you for all the hard work you seem to have put it in this far in advancing your education. The system is unfortunately rigged to be (IMHO) unnecessarily expensive and complex, doubly so as a single mom, and I hope you are able to advance your career the way you envision, with or without this degree. Best of luck to you!

    Reply ↓
    1. NotBatman*

      Seconded!

      I’m a college professor, and — having now googled University of the People — I love the concept and want more schools like it. A degree from there probably won’t offer the prestige of a University of Maryland or Ohio State, but if it’s within your budget then a degree from there would be better than one from a for-profit school.

      Reply ↓
      1. TadpolestoFrogs*

        You are better off seeing if you can’t transfer your credits to a local community college and get your AS.

        Or try an ‘adult college’ like Thomas Edison University – the university is accredited by the Middle States Commission on Higher Education (MSCHE); it has been accredited by MSCHE or its predecessor organization since 1977.

        Students at TESU earn an average of 38 credits toward their degrees by leveraging prior learning (professional certifications; free online classes; exams that test your knowledge; workplace training) – so you may be able to finish your degree without having to take any more classes.

        New Jersey’s 11 senior public institutions of higher education.

        Reply ↓
        1. Chaos*

          Another option is to look for a workplace that offers education assistance. For example, many colleges and universities offer the first bachelor’s degree for free for all employees in a major of your choice. Many private sector companies offer this as well. Changing jobs is a challenge, but this is an excellent benefit!

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          1. Midwest Manager too!*

            FWIW this might be true for many, but not necessarily most. The institution I work for is a large public (and generally considered prestigious) and does not offer this. If you are looking for this benefit, make sure you do the research before assuming it will be available.

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      2. JudasB*

        Adjunct professor who has been contacted by University of the People a few times with the less than enticing offer of working for free (with the implication that it would be good for networking and my resumé). The idea of affordable, not-for-profit education is great, but their method of volunteer staffing is exploitative and icky.

        Reply ↓
  2. Nodramalama*

    I think for LW2 this is so workplace, and team dependent. At my previous job when someone’s mother died, people across my branch donated to sending her flowers for her loss. At my current job it would be very unlikely for that information to be circulated outside their immediate team.

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    1. I Would Rather Be Eating Dumplings*

      I agree. This varies a lot by workplace culture (and location culture). I am not a workplace birthday person, but nothing that Carol does in this story seems that egregious or boundary-lacking to me, absent other information, it sounds like a misunderstanding.

      I have had colleagues who have specifically requested that their sad news (loss of a parent) be spread far and wide so they could avoid telling people but people would know, and I have similarly known colleagues who shared as little as possible. There’s not a ‘normal’ there.

      I also am not sure I see the same implication in Carol’s words that OP does (eg: “have we done anything” doesn’t read to me that she is hinting OP do something, but rather seems like trying to ascertain if she was meant to participate in something herself), but also OP knows Carol better so they might see something I missed.

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      1. Lyssa*

        Agree. In fact, I think the LW was the one making this weird. Everyone knows there are multiple Johns – it would have been perfectly normal to just say “which John?” when Carol asked, and then when she clarified, to simply say “Oh, I hadn’t heard something happened with his dad, I hope everything’s OK” or something similar. Maybe John didn’t want people talking about this, but unless there’s reason to believe he told Carol this was private, that’s not her fault. And I completely agree that it sounds like she was legitimately just asking whether they had done anything (to make sure she helped or not be redundant or whatever), which is the sort of knowledge that it’s perfectly reasonable for an admin to have.

        This seems to just feed into that weird idea that people sometimes have that everyone around them is a mind reader with bad intentions, rather than just starting from the assumption people more often than not are just imperfectly trying to be nice and sociable.

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        1. Sneaky Squirrel*

          It actually sounds to me like LW clarified which John, at least to understand it was the one they were talking to yesterday. However, I agree that LW made it weird by going up to John and asking about it instead of saying to Carol that he hadn’t said anything.

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            1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

              no they asked the other coworker who would know what was going on. They were NOT gossiping.

              The only person in the wrong is Carol singe John told her that he didn’t want it going around work.

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        2. Myrin*

          it would have been perfectly normal to just say “which John?” when Carol asked, and then when she clarified, to simply say “Oh, I hadn’t heard something happened with his dad, I hope everything’s OK” or something similar

          I mean, that’s basically what happened, isn’t it?

          “I’m wracking my brain trying to figure out which John she’s referring to. […] [Note: this probably lasted only a few seconds.] I must have looked confused, so she clarified, “You know, his dad and the accident. I just thought we should do something.” I told her that I didn’t know what she was talking about”.

          I agree that Carol probably didn’t mean anything by it but I also don’t think OP “made it weird” in any way.

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          1. EC*

            IMO bringing it up with John made it weird. In LW shoes I would have just dropped it after Carol mentioned it. I would never approach a colleague about something I heard indirectly that they didn’t specifically share with me themselves.

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            1. Carmina*

              Yeah I agree – would just have told Carol that I didn’t do anything since he didn’t share with me, and leave it at that.

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          2. Lyssa*

            She’s making it weird by treating this as some sort of affront rather than accepting normal conversation that sometimes requires give and take.

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            1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

              I find it weird because she’s the admin, who normally would deal with getting a card signed and ordering flowers or whatever, but he’s not on her team, but she still goes to him. It doesn’t sound like it’s clear whose cards she is supposed to deal with.

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          3. Annie2*

            “Made it weird” might be stronger language than I would use, but I don’t think OP needed to start asking around and approach John to get to the bottom of it. I would have just dropped it after the discussion with Carol unless I got other signs that something was going on with John that needed to be addressed.

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    2. londonedit*

      Yes; where I work something like flowers and a card for the loss of a close relative would be a team thing only. It wouldn’t be communicated more widely (unless the affected person chose to tell people on other teams themselves).

      Birthdays are slightly wider but still only celebrated within your own department – there’s just a card that goes round (an e-card since 2020) and it’s only signed by people who actually work with you or know you personally.

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    3. Harper the Other One*

      It’s varies a lot in workplaces I’ve known but I also think it’s important to leave room for individual preference. In this case, John didn’t want people outside his team to know (and maybe only let his team know so they’d understand why he was making lots of phone calls/having to leave during hospital visiting hours/whatever), and that should trump everything else IMO.

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    4. WellRed*

      The odd thing for me here is the coworker in question had a father involved in an accident a month prior. Must they “do something” for every thing?

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      1. SusieQQ*

        Uf.

        A while ago one of my DRs had a family member who had a major medical incident. The family member recovered, but it was a very trying time for the DR. Their teammates pooled together to get them a gift card, and I think I caught a whiff of “the company should be doing this, not us.”

        But I (the person who handles such things) deliberately didn’t do anything precisely because of this. Not because I was without sympathy, but because a line needs to be drawn somewhere and I don’t want to be the one to draw it and make it weird and start this “well so-and-so got flowers when their dad was in a car accident, so why didn’t I get flowers when my went through ?” And yes the fact that a month had passed makes it weird too.

        I send flowers only for the death of a family member, including pets.

        Reply ↓
    5. doreen*

      I think some of it also depends on how “team” is defined. If I was referring to my “team” at either one of my government jobs, I would most likely be talking about a relatively small group of people who do the same type of work and share a supervisor. It wouldn’t include other people who are physically located in the same place but I would absolutely donate to sending flowers to the person who sits behind me or next to me or the security staff even though I wouldn’t include them in “my team”.

      I’m not sure Carol was implying that the OP should have organized something – she might have been , but if I ask if anything is being done for John (and I have) it’s because I want to know who I should see to donate/sign the card if there is one . It doesn’t mean I think the person I’m speaking to or anyone else should do anything.

      Reply ↓
    6. learnedthehardway*

      I think it would have been better to remind Carol that the purpose of LW2’s role is to get work done for the company and is not to be a social coordinator (maybe phrase that more diplomatically, but get the message across).

      I can see why the LW talked to John – I mean, you’ve been informed that something serious happened, it seems to be common knowledge to the point that someone thinks the company should do something in support, and you don’t want to be uncaring or have John think you’re uncaring. I really doubt that John will hold it against the LW for bringing it up and offering their moral support. More likely, John will take note that Carol sounds like a gossip / disaster hound, and will take steps to keep personal issues he doesn’t want her to know out of her earshot.

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    7. Carmina*

      At my workplace we would have sent flowers (through HR), but here the dad is not dead! So nothing would have been done or shared through any official channel. We send when the employee themselves is in the hospital, or when they take bereavement leave for the funeral or otherwise inform their manager of it.

      Reply ↓
  3. periwinkle*

    OP #3: Look into degree completion programs in your state’s university system.

    Another alternative are the “Big Three” non-traditional schools which were basically established to stitch together a patchwork of academic credits into a degree. Thomas Edison State University and Charter Oak State College are public non-profit schools (run, respectively, by the states of NJ and CT), while Capella University is a private non-profit originally run by the state of NY. They’re all regionally accredited. They offer opportunities to get credit for prior learning and for standardized subject tests (CLEP and DSST exams).

    I had college credit from three different universities but no degree. I transferred them to Excelsior, added a bunch more from taking exams and some additional classes, and left with a bachelor’s. FWIW, I promptly applied to a professional grad program at a state university, earned my M.S., and launched a new career – definitely a success story! It took a lot of focus and self-directed learning, but it was worth it.

    Reply ↓
    1. The Prettiest Curse*

      Let’s add other college ideas for OP 3 here. Western Governors University is a nonprofit, offers online classes, is regionally accredited and has (as far as I know) a decent reputation.

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      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        WGU is a good option for “I need a degree in stuff I already know” but not a good option for “I need to learn things in which I have no background.” Other programs may be different, but my husband (business administration) and I (health information management) both found that the instructors didn’t actually do any teaching, and that the evaluation tests/papers and the course materials do not consistently align. I got through my HIM degree purely based on my knowledge from 15 years working in HIM.

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      2. Tuckerman*

        I was in my mid 20s and didn’t plan to finish college. I ended up getting an office job at a University and took advantage of their tuition benefit, finishing both a bachelor’s and master’s.
        Avoid nationally accredited schools because you never know what the future holds, and it may block you from the jobs/grad programs you may want someday. I never expected to go to grad school. Agree with all the great advice to look at school degree completion programs.

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      3. Salsa Your Face*

        I have a degree from WGU. I had been working in my field for nearly 10 years but was unable to advance or switch companies because I hadn’t finished college (even though all the listings said “or equivalent experience,” don’t get me started.) I loved the self-paced learning style, competency-based performance evaluation, and the ability to accelerate combined with the fact that it was paid per semester, not per class. I finished my degree in one year, for $7k, in 2019. Since then I’ve been hired by two of the leading companies in my field, and neither has raised even a whisper of concern over where my degree was from. It was a great experience and I would recommend it to anyone who just needs to “check the box,” but do caution that it may not be for people who don’t learn well independently or who don’t already have a strong foundation in their field.

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      4. FormerTexan*

        I earned my degree from the University of North Texas, it’s a BAAS in Applied Technology and Performance Improvement. They took all my random credits I had an rolled it into the degree so I didn’t have to take a lot of courses to get it. It was all online. This was in 2015.

        Reply ↓
      5. Gatomon*

        Another WGU grad – it does cater towards people who are already working in the field they’re getting their degree in, but I was able to break into my field after going back to school with WGU.

        In order to enroll, I had to pass a relevant IT cert because I didn’t have enough work experience (my then-job was kinda related but it was a stretch, TBH) and after about a year, I was able to move to an entry-level role in the field. This came with a lot more work-related stress, OT and on call shifts, but WGU’s model was flexible enough that it wasn’t an issue if I had to work late or was on call because it was basically self-study. I think the program was also much more tailored to my career than what was available at Local College, and it was interesting to me that they actually followed up with my boss to check on my success after graduation to ensure they were teaching the right things.

        I actually liked WGU’s method a lot more than my experience with traditional college. If I knew a subject, or found it easy, I could just complete the exam work and be DONE with it. If I was struggling, I could spend more time on it, and I felt like I had far easier access to the professors for assistance when I needed it. There were a couple of classes I really struggled with, and the professors were great with providing additional materials and walking through things with me. And the required calls with your mentor every week really helped me stay on track and motivated to finish. I wish I was rich enough to hire my mentor as my personal mentor/cheerleader, honestly. I loved speaking with her.

        Talking about my experience with WGU was actually the thing that tipped my candidacy over the line into getting that entry-level position, and I was in my desired role by the time I graduated. I think it’s the one decision I’ve made in my life that I would never hesitate to do over, even knowing how hard it was. (Yay for undiagnosed ADHD, too many 3 am phone calls, and losing a parent out of the blue when you’re trying to write your thesis.)

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    2. Santiago*

      I was going to say the same thing. Oftentimes “degree completion” programs are at smaller state schools too. For example, Fayetteville State University has an excellent program in the southeast of the US.

      Reply ↓
      1. Bumblebee*

        A lot of states have college completion initiatives going on – it helps to up their percentage of workers with degrees which theoretically attracts businesses to the state. They may also be part of adult learner initiatives – that might help you search for them. You may or may not be eligible for financial aid now, depending on whether your previous coursework adds up to Satisfactory Academic Progress. I’d find a state school nearby and attend an open house/admissions event, and schedule an appointment with an admissions counselor and/or financial aid counselor. You may need to apply and be admitted before you are assigned a counselor, but Financial Aid should be a session at any Open House worth its salt.

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        1. Friend of WSU Grad*

          Yes, yes, yes to all of this! It might seem counterintuitive, but a more formal school will likely have *more* support and resources for someone finishing their degree.

          Talk to an admissions counselor about how many of your credits can transfer. It may be more than you think.

          I have a friend who took a bit of a nontraditional path through college, and she had a lot of success at Wright State University in Dayton. If you’re in the southwest Ohio area at all, I would definitely recommend it.

          Also, it breaks my heart that you said you made mistakes . . . you are doing an amazing, hard thing, and we are all rooting for you!

          Reply ↓
          1. MigraineMonth*

            Yeah, the entire process of getting through admission, financial aid, requirements and graduation is like navigating a maze in the dark. The privileged are given a flashlight, of course, but it’s still a damn maze! It’s designed to get you turned around, lost, and deep in debt without your degree.

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        2. AustenFan*

          LW3 – the program you are looking for is often called Individualized Studies or Liberal Studies. Depending on the number of credits you have, you may only need to take one or two classes to finish your degree. These courses are designed to help you tie all of your coursework together. I work as a faculty member in a program like this.

          You should also check for this kind of program at a regional state university, not at your state’s flagship university. It’s typically part of the mission of a state university to help adults finish their degrees. Finally, most state schools also offer credit for prior learning, where you can earn credits based on work experience.

          You should also check to see if there are adult entry scholarships available. At many institutions there are scholarships dedicated to people like you. Also, if you happen to be a resident of Minnesota, the North Star Promise started this fall, which means that if you’re family income is less than $80,000, after other grants and scholarships, the state pays the rest of your tuition. You’re still on the hook for books, fees, and living expenses, but you wouldn’t accrue any further student loan debt for tuition.

          Also, check with your regional university to see if they have an adult entry advisor and/or admissions specialist. They can really help you figure out the best, most efficient way to complete your degree.

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          1. NotBatman*

            Yes! A General Studies degree (as our school calls it) is tremendously helpful for that kind of situation.

            We had one woman who was completely computer illiterate just walk in the door of the admissions building and ask if she could enroll. Our admin sat down with her and helped her get all the paperwork she needed, and got her in for that fall with a full scholarship. Of course, ours is one of the many MANY small private schools that are hurting for students right now — the big public schools are a little stricter about admissions.

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          2. Liz*

            Accreditation requirements may limit this “1 or 2 classes” option to a school where you have previously attended. SACSCOC, for instance, requires one-fourth of the credits to be earned at the institution awarding the degree.

            But yes, OP – look at interdisciplinary/liberal arts/general studies degrees too, if you just need a college degree.

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              1. Black*

                Do not enroll at UotP. My company, for instance, would not consider any degree from a volunteer teaching school like this to be valid or credible. We’d file 13 the resume because it’s basically a diploma mill.

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              2. Alicent*

                Look carefully at whatever school you go to. A friend of mine desperately wanted an MBA and enrolled in a college that didn’t have a specialized accreditation for the program. Right before graduation they were bought out by DeVry and THAT’S the university that went on his now-trash MBA that he worked extremely hard for. The school closed not long after.

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      2. Dust Bunny*

        I’m not sure these were a thing when I was in college, or if they were I didn’t know about them, but this is functionally what I did when my biology degree imploded: I had enough preexisting credits to patch together a history degree, which I could complete without extra lab hours or my learning disabilities getting in my way. I did not exactly have a plan but at least I graduated.

        (This was before online classes were really a thing and it was at my original school, just in a completely different department, so it’s not directly comparable, but the primary objective was to get me out of there with a diploma by the most pragmatic means.)

        Reply ↓
    4. Mrs. Pommeroy*

      I have very little knowledge about how college etc. actually works in the US but one thing that sprang to mind and might be of help to LW3 is
      Study Hall – a cooperation between the youtube science education channel Crash Course and Arizona State University, to make it easier/much less expensive to earn college credits.
      I’ll include two links in a second comment but since that will go into moderation, you could also simply google “crash course study hall”

      Reply ↓
      2. Future Nurse?*

        I’ve taken some classes via the ASU “Universal Pathways” program (ea.asu.edu), some of which include the Study Hall/Crash Course material. Each 3- or 4-credit course costs $425. They’ve been quite high-quality courses, equal to the ones I’ve taken at my local community college (although different – less one-on-one contact with professors/TAs).

        You can’t do a whole bachelor’s degree via Universal Pathways but you can bang out most of your “general education” courses (like your first two years, basically). If you complete a certain number of these courses with a GPA of 2.75 or above, you will be granted admission to ASU – plus a lot of other schools will accept them as transfer credit. They show up on your transcript exactly the same as if you took them in-person at the Tempe campus.

        I’ve been taking prereqs for a second bachelor’s program in nursing and I liked that the ASU classes were cheaper and sometimes more self-paced than the CC classes.

        Reply ↓
    5. Hyaline*

      Yes–adding that many state schools have programs for specifically this kind of situation. Often the degree is “General Studies” or something similar, so if you have your heart set on a specific degree, it might not work, but the idea is that you take all those credit and make them count toward *something* and get you a degree quickly. Sometimes they’re even all online. What I’m seeing a lot of students doing is exactly what periwinkle describes–get the “generic” bachelors and then, if they need a specific degree for their career path, apply to grad school.

      Reply ↓
    6. Staja*

      UMass Amherst offers their University Without Walls degree competition program, which also has an experiential education portfolio as part of the program, worth up to 30 credits – I was able to to transfer in 20 year old credits from 3 schools (plus what I previously taken at UMass) and then earn another 15 credits for my portfolio, writing about customer service and distributed teams.

      Yes, my degree states “Interdisciplinary Studies”, but I also declared I was focused on organizational communication and thats what my coursework suggested. So, my additional certificate says such.

      I’m now starting classes next month at SNHU for my MS.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    7. Nonsense*

      Not to mention, state universities have a financial aid office that can help with finding scholarships and grants. There are so many out there these days, especially for returning adult students, and while each one might only be $250 or $500 that adds up real quick. Plus, many state universities offer their own incentives to returning students.

      And especially in this post-Covid world, there have never been more online degree options at these universities, and you can enroll from anywhere and stay enrolled if you have to move. Most of the courses are asynchronous too, since they know most of the students are working adults juggling commitments.

      Look, I get it – debt is terrifying, and student loans are a goddamn crisis right now. But you don’t want to keep making the same mistake just because you’re scared. There’s a reason those classes are only $100, LW3, and the end result is that you’re going to be paying for it for a long time and end up with a degree worth less than the paper it’s printed on. Look into the state universities nearest you, and schedule an appointment to find out what you need to do to get enrolled. You’re this close to making it – don’t fumble because you want the cheapest way out.

      Reply ↓
    8. doreen*

      while Capella University is a private non-profit originally run by the state of NY.

      I think you means Excelsior here, right?

      Reply ↓
      1. periwinkle*

        Crap. Yes, I meant Excelsior! Sorry for the confusion.

        I did take courses at Capella, which is an overpriced private for-profit (but regionally accredited) because my employer covered the tuition. The courses were actually well structured but the quality of instruction was hit or miss.

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    9. Higher Ed Administrator*

      Lots of good advice so far. Another option is SUNY’s Empire State University. Online programs and credit for prior learning…not just earned college credits. I echo the suggestion to visit an open house at your local college/university. They should be happy to help…and if they are not, find another institution!

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    10. Immaterial*

      Just a note a to be careful about even not for profit schools and do your due diligence. I once worked for a for profit college that turned not for profit but which still effectively funneled money to the original ownership. you bet we advertised hard that we were not for profit.

      Reply ↓
    11. NotYourHR*

      University of Maryland Global Campus may be a good option here. You can transfer in credits easily, they’re accredited regionally, fully online, and they have a lot of adult learners in their programs. They market heavily to military families and have asynchronous learning which is great for folks who can’t commit to regular in person or set time online lectures.

      Reply ↓
    12. AMS*

      I did a fully online degree through American Public University – the civilian side of the American Military University (created for military personnel and their families for online learning). Its regionally accredited and much cheaper than my local university options. I didn’t love all the classes, but they are nearly all only 8 weeks so I got through pretty quickly. All but one of my credits transferred without issue.

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    13. Rock Prof*

      University of Wisconsin Extended Campus also offers degree competition programs in specific field where it’s expected you’ll transfer in with at least 60+ credits. Their degree programs are in specific fields (they have business) and fully online, and you come out with a University of Wisconsin degree which is fully accredited and generally well regarded. The programs offer a lot of academic support and resources for students, not sure about the financial side. (Conflict of interest: I do occasionally teach in one of these programs)

      Reply ↓
    14. Observer*

      Another alternative are the “Big Three” non-traditional schools which were basically established to stitch together a patchwork of academic credits into a degree.

      Another option is Empire State College, which is actually part of the SUNY system and is regionally accredited.

      Reply ↓
    15. Turn Back Time*

      I was one semester away from a BA when I decided to be employed by the school instead because the department I was working in part time had a full time employee leave and wanted to hire me. I loved my job – but I wish I’d taken classes and finished up that last semester while I was there! Now I have hope that the credits from the two colleges won’t be totally wasted – I’m going to make a list of the best options and start researching. Thank you so much for asking about this. It would have never occurred to me that there are programs for this exact issue. I was so close – and yet at the time, it made so much sense. Don’t feel bad – our past selves made the choices we had to make at the time – and I know, at least for me – I don’t remember really considering any other option. I hope you find some good options that let you finish without a lot of cost to you!

      Reply ↓
      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        Purdue Global allows you to transfer up to 75% of required credits, and Purdue has famously low tuition that they rarely increase.

        University of Michigan has the Go Blue Guarantee. Michigan residents with household incomes less than 75K and assets less than 75K qualify for free tuition. People who make more can still qualify for reduced tuition.

        University of Chicago and University of Illinois also have promise programs, but relatively stringent requirements.

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  4. Homer Jay Simpson*

    LW#3: I took a class through University of The People and believe me, THERE IS A REASON THE CLASSES ARE ONLY $100 EACH.
    I’m sorry to shout, but if you’ve already put in so much time and effort into getting a degree I would hate to see you get screwed over in new and exciting ways. They’re basically just a government’s foray into the whole for-profit college industry.
    Seriously, look elsewhere, anywhere else.

    Reply ↓
    1. KC*

      100%. The reason University of the People can offer classes is because they don’t pay their faculty. Faculty volunteer their time, so you have to wonder what type of quality they are getting for their faculty.

      Reply ↓
      1. PhyllisB*

        I haven’t read all the comments so this might have already been mentioned, but a lot of colleges offer programs/financial aid for returning students, and a lot of them focus on single mothers. If you have a college in your area I would go talk to the finance department there before doing anything. The worst that can happen is you find out they can’t help you but you might find just the answer you’re looking for.

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      2. BigTenProfessor*

        This is wild, because my university has told us in no uncertain terms that this is not allowed for full-time faculty. I see some big names teaching at UotP, and it surprises me.

        Reply ↓
        1. Hyaline*

          It’s gross and exploitative of students but my first thought was “I bet profs who are doing this are throwing the materials they make for class anyway up there, giving no productive feedback, but making lots of students buy their textbooks so they make more sales”

          Reply ↓
          1. Homer Jay Simpson*

            For my class it was literally just a reading list, a bunch of essay prompts, and all the feedback you got was from peer reviews.
            Not a single lecture. The only feedback the professor gave me was that I hadn’t cited enough sources (in response to a question that specifically asked about my experiences, which I have no academic sources for).

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        2. tamarack etc.*

          It probably limits their accreditation options.

          I, too, saw the “job” postings from them on academic job boards. I don’t know more about them, and they may be idealistic and all, but basing their offer on volunteer work is IMHO misguided in the current situation. (I’m not saying that volunteer-based educational programs are *always* a bad idea, but I’d only accept them in relatively limited situations: hobby communities (with a strong “community of learning” feel), and situations where societal structures have broken down (underground universities in totalitarian states) and paying instructors is less of a high priority than keeping education alive.

          Reply ↓
  5. Isabel Archer*

    OP#5, the very first time your employer contacts you outside of work hours for anything that’s not a true “reception emergency” (!?), drop that shiny company phone right in the toilet.

    And a question for Alison: If OP has to be reachable 24/7, would they be eligible for additional “on-call” compensation?

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    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If they’re non-exempt, they’d need to be paid for any work they did during that time — so if they’re called at night and do half an hour of work in response, they need to be paid for that half hour of work. But if they’re just on-call and not actually working, then no.

      The law distinguishes between being “engaged to wait” (where your time is really not your own and you can’t engage in your own pursuits) and “waiting to be engaged” (where you can do whatever you want but you’re on call in case they need you). “Engaged to wait” time must be paid. “Waiting to be engaged” time doesn’t need to be.

      If they’re exempt, this is all moot because they’re not paid by the time they work.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mr McGregor's Gardener*

        How does “waiting to be engaged” work if what you want to do is get drunk/high? Or go somewhere out of range or where you might turn your phone off (cinema/theatre)? I can see cases where you can’t actually do whatever you want, but you’re not getting paid for that time.

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        1. Dog momma*

          You can’t go out of range.. at least in healthcare. On call is paid time, whether you go in or not. You don’t go to the movies, shopping, out to lynch unless you are ready to get up and leave in a moments notice. Some folks can’t live more than 20 minutes out…bc you know, death can occur if they can’t get in right away if on call. and you certainly aren’t getting drunk or high..geez

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          1. Emmy Noether*

            What you are describing is “engaged to wait”, not “waiting to be engaged”, no? The point was that there’s a difference.

            Reply ↓
            1. JM60*

              I think those types of limitations generally aren’t enough to move the time from “waiting to be engaged” to “engaged to wait”, even though the time isn’t completely yours because you’re not completely free to do what you want. Personally, I think there should be some sort of legal requirement for employers to pay employees for “on call” hours that you’re mostly free to spend as you like, but not completely. Though it would be difficult to come up with rules that would make sense for all on-call jobs, which can vary in how much control the employer is exercising over the “off duty” employee.

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              1. bamcheeks*

                I think the bigger difficulty is always what level of protection do you have if you say no. We have a similar problem with zero-hour contracts in the UK, which are flexible contracts where you don’t have a minimum number of hours and you just get scheduled onto shifts. Zero-hours / casual contracts work well when both sides need the flexibility, and you genuinely can pick up shifts that fit around your caring/studying/other work commitments, and there isn’t a penalty for saying no. But a lot of low-paying employers in healthcare, hospitality and the like have been using them where they do actually need minimum numbers of staffing and don’t have a lot of flexibility, and penalising employees who turn down shifts by just not putting them on the schedule again.

                If your employer contacts you at short notice and asks you to come in for a shift and you say no, and they say, fair enough, see you on Monday, there isn’t a problem. You can pick up extra shifts when you’re free, but still preserve your own time. But if they can just stop putting you on the schedule and you have no protection, then basically absolutely all your time is potentially “waiting to engage” time and that’s completely unreasonable and exploitative.

                The Labour government has promised to end “exploitative zero-hour contracts”. and I’m genuinely interested to see how they do it, and whether they are going to end zero-hour contracts all together (which would be REALLY significant, and mean that every organisation offering temp cover at any level, including highly-paid professionals, will need to figure out a new way to do it), or just “exploitative” ones which require flexibility and constant availability on the employee’s part but not on the employer’s part. The latter is really hard to do, so I’m fascinated to see what they come up with.

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              2. Emmy Noether*

                Dog momma was specifically saying “on call is paid time”, so engaged to wait, I gather. It only confuses the discussion to mix them up, because they should be treated differently.

                Personal opinion:

                I think forbidding shopping or going to a restaurant for “waiting to be engaged” (unpaid) would definitely be too much, as long as you are reachable.

                As for intoxication, most people already refrain from, for example, drinking just before their planned shift starts. Planning to be ready to work already dictates some of what one can do off work. It’s a difference in degree, not in principle. And if it’s not every day, all the time, it doesn’t seem that onerous (and even then, it may not bother some people?).

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                2. Emmy Noether*

                  @ecnaseer
                  true, and I think that should be taken into account, and the expectations lowered! And really, every night seems too much in any case. That would be limiting life a lot (childcare? trips? never turning one’s phone off?)

                3. doreen*

                  It depends – the situation in the letter does appear to be all the time but it’s not clear what exactly is expected. When is the OP’s phone turned off- only nights and weekends or does she turn it off whenever she isn’t actually using it ( like some people I know) Do they want the LW to answer the phone at 10PM so they can get there in time to cover for the midnight to 8am receptionist or does the employer want to be able to reach the LW as soon as the receptionist calls in sick at 10pm so the LW can cover for the receptionist starting at 8am instead of WFH that day?

                4. Great Frogs of Literature*

                  I’m in IT, not healthcare (so: no one is going to die if I don’t answer my phone, but me not answering my phone could cost the company a lot of money or make us look bad to clients), and my on call shifts are definitely waiting to be engaged. I do probably have a little more leeway in time to respond (that is, be at my computer — the call needs to be answered when it happens) than, e.g. a heart surgeon.

                  It’s not that I CAN’T go grocery shopping or go to a restaurant, but if I do, I need to accept that I might need to go directly to checkout before I’ve gotten half the things on my list, or I might need to ask for a to-go box. I COULD go to a movie, if I was confident that I’d notice my phone vibrating — but if I get a call from any number I don’t recognize, I need to be prepared to walk out of the movie to answer it, and maybe just outright leave. So, in practice, while I can do those things, I generally don’t, except maybe grocery shopping if I’ve planned badly. I’ve never actually had to walk out of a grocery store — but I have had to sit down on a bench on the side of the road with bags full of groceries, or leave my D&D group to twiddle their thumbs for 20 minutes while I take a call. (Thankfully I’ve never gotten a call while I’m in the shower, either.)

                5. Great Frogs of Literature*

                  I should note that we recently started getting a nominal stipend for weekend/holiday days we’re on call, but before that it was just part of the job and it was made clear when I interviewed that this was the expectation.

                6. BattleRoyale*

                  For those who are asking, yes, it is literally 24/7. I even put it an email so I would be able to control the recap: 24/7 incl nights, weekends, holidays & PTO.

            2. Carmina*

              Not the same – the on-call pay is typically not the same rate as worktime pay, it’s something in-between to compensate for the relative loss of freedom. In my case (I am also on-call, but no lives are at stake and I can do the job remotely when called), the on-call pay per hour would be way below minimum wage. When I am actually called, it’s time and a half.

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          2. ferrina*

            It depends what kind of healthcare. One of my relatives worked as an on-call nurse (hospice) for years with 2 nights a week on call. She could go shopping or to a restaurant or even to a movie (though she’d need to leave the work phone on/pager on, for this was right at the transition from pagers to cell phones). She would sleep, but she couldn’t get drunk or high. She couldn’t go out of range, but that didn’t limit her day-to-day life.

            In her role, she could have 0-4 calls per night. She was required to respond to the call within a certain time frame (not sure what it was, but it was quick). Sometimes she just needed to answer a quick question for a patient and could go back to what she was doing (I saw her cooking dinner while answering patient questions). Sometimes she would need to leave and go to the patient. If she was at a movie or restaurant, it was a toss-up whether she would come back or whether she would need to leave (she didn’t do movies or restaurants much anyways, so it was a non-issue for her). Sometimes it was a quick trip; sometimes she was gone all night.

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        2. Nonanon*

          Back when my partner was on call, they would have two people; if first on call was too intoxicated to come into work, second on call was contacted (the rule was NO alcohol or illegal drugs, but there was trust that you knew your limits and if you could check on something after having one beer, second on call didn’t need to be reached).
          What would happen if second on call was also intoxicated, you ask? No one knows, and based on what I’ve heard about the organization, no one had planned for it.

          Reply ↓
          1. Nonanon*

            PERSUMABLY if first on call was ALWAYS intoxicated OR someone lied about being sober enough to work, that would be a separate issue.

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        3. Lab Boss*

          I have a friend who works in fairly high-level IT management with global connections, so he’s kind of always “waiting to be engaged.” The expectation is that he answers calls to the best of his ability. I’ve seen him take calls while fairly drunk and help resolve the problem, or while much more drunk and explain that he’s too drunk to fix the problem but help figure out who should be called next. It’s not a secret- he’ll be very open about saying “hold on, I’m a few beers deep and it’s taking me longer to find this document.” If he was “on the clock” or actively on call that wouldn’t be acceptable, but their expectation is just that he’s responsive to the best of his ability while living his life outside work hours.

          Reply ↓
      2. Carmina*

        Not mandated, but hopefully common to do so? Otherwise there’s no incentive, and resentment can grow quickly between people that are on-call and people who aren’t.

        In my country, it’s mandatory that on-call is compensated, and there are limits on the conditions (e.g. you can have at least 20 minutes to respond/call back, and there’s a max number of days you can be on-call in a row). I think it’s pretty common in other EU countries too. We offer the same conditions to our US employees who are on-call.

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    2. Your Former Password Resetter*

      Don’t actually destroy company property of course, even if they’re being overreaching jerks about this.

      Reply ↓
      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Agreed. Buying the company a new/replacement phone is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

        Reply ↓
    3. Katydid*

      I am very confused about this, maybe I don’t know what “reception” is, but it sounds like they just need you to be aware that you need to cover for the reception person if they call in sick? I mean on call seems like an overreaction to that scenario. When I worked IT on call, we did get paid like $2 an hour while we were on call after normal business hours and then time and a half if we actually got called. There were always 2 people on call and there were times I definitely had to walk my on call co-worker through a process when I was drunk at Oktoberfest (referencing a comment down thread). But this sounds more like you would have to be aware that you need go into the office?? Which seems like a situation where you could just set that number to break through the DND so you know you need to get up earlier to commute.

      Reply ↓
      1. Bee*

        Right, this sounds to me like when you work retail and your boss might call at any time to see if you could cover a shift that afternoon/the next morning, it’s just that the calls are most likely to come in at 7am and the LW (reasonably!) wants their phone to be off at that time for the 98% of days when they aren’t needed. It’s not really “on call.”

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      2. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

        Reception means the first person that the public encounters. It might be a physical person at a desk and it might be whoever answers the phone (and those are often the same person, in smaller companies or offices).

        And if you’re confused about why the person who covers for reception needs to be available 24/7, well, you’re right to be. Someone above LW is either a control freak or badly misunderstands the needs of the position.

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      3. BattleRoyale*

        They kept changing the story. It started out as “reception emergencies”, only to have it turn into 24/7 emergencies of their definition. For example, once my boss texted me at 10pm but my phone was off. He was at the airport & couldn’t find his car rental, so he texted me. At 10pm.

        I think they are trying to get rid of me because I previously reported my boss for illegal comments about planning illegal hiring practices. So, this time they said I was being uncooperative because I didn’t agree, even though they turned down 3 options I gave them. The only solution for them is for my phone to be on 24/7 for any reason they decide to call an emergency. Pretty wacko, I know.

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    4. BattleRoyale*

      My friend who is a mgr elsewhere said to tell them anything they want to hear & always be unavailable when they call!

      Reply ↓
  6. TheBunny*

    LW#3

    I would be very careful.

    I went to the University of Phoenix when they were regionally and not nationally accredited (it’s possible they still are?) and before the whole fiasco… honestly back when they were pretty much seen as just like any other online school…when the stigma wasn’t the UoP name but the whole online school thing.

    I actually worked really hard and learned a lot. However since the fiasco I don’t even tell people I went there.

    So, be careful as even if the school has a fine reputation now, it might not in a few years.

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  7. Emmy Noether*

    LW #1, it’s unclear whether William’s slacking leads to more work for the rest of you. You say in your first paragraph it’s split evenly… is that the case or not? Do projects that he doesn’t finish get reassigned? Does he get assigned less new work?

    If it doesn’t affect your workload, leave it alone. If it does affect your workload, that’s what you need to bring to your manager. Don’t complain about William’s phone use, or lateness, or anything of that kind. It just makes you look like a busybody, and disinclines people to listen to you. The only thing you have standing to ask for is an equitably split workload (and you still might not get it, in which case your only options are to accept it or quit).

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    1. WS*

      Yes, this is going to depend on whether they, say, get 18 projects per day and take 3 each (which William slacks on) or whether they get 18 projects per day which need to get done and everyone is doing more to make up for him.

      Reply ↓
      1. Malarkey01*

        Agree we need to know more about the workload, and I thought Alison went too far saying manager sucked. This might be my bias because I’ve supervised someone that sounds like LW, but I’m not a manager who watches the clock and gets on people for running 20 minutes late, and I assume that coworkers will spend time talking socially within limits, and I have a few really productive folks that need 10-30 minutes downtime between projects which is offset by the quality and quantity, and I don’t stand there with a stopwatch.

        When you have someone that is very black and white and they are policing someone else’s behavior, you’re often just irritating yourself. In my case no amount of explaining that I allow for different work styles as long as work is getting done got through to our school monitor.

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        1. Observer*

          I thought Alison went too far saying manager sucked.

          Disagree.

          I *do* agree that unless the LW is getting more work because of this, it is totally not their business and should back off. But the manager is still doing a bad job. Because it’s very demoralizing to work hard and see someone *on your team* slacking off without any repercussions. Still not the LW’s place to speak up, but if the manager had any sense, they would understand the problem.

          Reply ↓
          1. Malarkey01*

            I think everyone has different definitions of slacking off and whether this is something that needs to have repercussions is impossible to know.

            My problem with the boss sucks framing is that it places this in an automatic right v wrong and doesn’t allow for OP to learn that there might be some nuance here- and I think there’s a lot of nuance if LW is lecturing coworker and timing them.

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        2. Observer*

          I thought Alison went too far saying manager sucked.

          Another reason that the manager is really bad here is that he is having all of these meetings with the entire team about time management, although the LW says that no one but William seems to be doing this stuff. If the boss is really seeing other issues, he needs to address people individually. Like, if the LW is spending an inordinate amount of time tracking William, Thomas should tell LW this directly eg “I am managing William and his output. I’m also keeping an eye on everyone else and you are spending way too much time on trying to manage William. You need to stop that, as it is not your job.”

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          1. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

            Agreed – I think it is questionable if the problem is really William or OP, but either way Thomas needs to address the issues.

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    2. KateM*

      I suspect that OP is already seen as a busybody, as it seems that they often remind William of manager’s expectations and then tell Thomas about how William does not do that.

      Reply ↓
      1. Emmy Noether*

        Oh yes, I suspect OP has already very much undermined themselves in their colleagues’ and manager’s eyes by being the person that polices other’s behavior of their own initiative without having any standing to do so. Don’t be that person!

        Reply ↓
          1. DJ Abbott*

            I don’t know about that. In OP’s shoes I’d probably be curious too. Analysis comes naturally to me, so I might do it just to inform myself.
            I have a similar situation with our department manager. She loves chatting and socializing and will chat for more than an hour, each, with her favorite employees. I have not done an analysis of the timing, but it is very noticeable. One day she spent two hours chatting with a client who she either already knew, or they hit it off instantly. I did look at my watch that time, and discussed it with the assistant manager after she brought it up.

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            1. Zelda*

              And a little “monitoring” is a reasonable first self-check in analyzing one’s own reaction, as in, is he really spending hours every day goofing off, or am I just looking up and noticing him at the wrong moments? Starting with a reality check to fend off confirmation bias isn’t automatically terrible. It just depends how extensive a project is wrapped up in the LW’s phrase “I have kept track.”

              Reply ↓
            2. The Hourglass*

              Chatting with a client for two hours is also known as “relationship building.” If it wins more business from that client because your company is now top-of-mind when the client is looking to engage someone for work, that two hours may be time very well invested.

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          2. Falling Diphthong*

            I think the monitoring falls into the category of behavior that is absolutely normal, yet also the social norm is to pretend that you just casually registered in the background how much time the slacking is and definitely are not dwelling and fuming.

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            1. Emmy Noether*

              I think actual monitoring, as in going out of your way to do it, doing it instead of actual work, and/or writing it down is not normal, no.

              Reply ↓
          3. Pastor Petty Labelle*

            You can’t really say you are honest about how you spend your time if you spend it tracking William’s time wasting. Which is also time wasting.

            You aren’t William’s boss you have no standing to tell him how to spend his time, or to track how he spends his. This is the way it is.

            OP, you got 3 choices here:

            1. Ignore it and go about your day.
            2. Stay mad and frustrated at work every day.
            3. Find another job.

            You aren’t William’s boss you have no standing to tell him how to spend his time, or to track how he spends his.

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      2. Bast*

        I’ve worked with a William, and it really does impact your own job. Upper management tended to work around the Williams of my work instead of just canning them, because it was very much a “we don’t fire anyone” type of company. I’m not sure what field OP works in or what their job is, but in my job, a person like William meant:

        –Everyone else taking turns taking care of William’s clients’ problems when they would call in. This would range from getting screamed at by someone frustrated that William was once again NOT in when he was supposed to be, to going into an hours long deep dive into something that William messed up that needed to be fixed. Everyone else was already backlogged.

        –Being assigned a higher case load because upper management “didn’t see the point” in giving anything else to William because they knew he wasn’t doing his job. So, at the end of the day, everyone else had about 90-100 cases on average, and William had 60-70.

        –People never being able to find William even when he was in the office, because he was hiding out in conference rooms on his cell phone.

        –Wasting ample amounts of time monitoring William to report to upper management. (Middle management — monitoring productivity was part of my job).

        –In some instances, the William would have one specific job that needed to be completed before it could move on to Next Person. William would either not do it, or do it so wrong that it needed heavy edits and corrections, leading to Next Person having to fix a lot of William’s poor work.

        It was demoralizing and demotivating to have people who worked their butts off having to constantly cover for a William. It’s not about just being a busybody — having someone who is constantly late and doing no work can negatively impact a team in many ways.

        Reply ↓
        1. Anne Elliot*

          Yes, but you’ve done exactly what the LW has not done in their letter: quantify how William’s disengagement actually impacted your own workload in a demonstrable way. Under those circumstances, the framing isn’t “William isn’t working as hard as me!” it’s “I can’t do X and Y because I have to pick up William’s slack” or “I wasn’t able to complete Z by the deadline because William’s contribution was missing/I couldn’t find William” or “The client is pretty angry that the project is late because we had to fill in William’s part.”

          What we have from the LW is “William isn’t working as hard as me!” and “I know this is true because I’ve been keeping track!” Even if true, the former is NOYB unless it is impacting you in a quantifiable way, and the latter sounds like a busy-body who is themself doing something that is not their job and that takes away from their own work.

          Which is not to say the obviously lazy coworker isn’t a major aggravation, because it is: a daily walking injustice. But you have to have a reason to report it, or even care about it, beyond the optics and your emotional response. So the way to report it is to report the CONSEQUENCES of William’s disengagement. Don’t pick up his slack. Don’t cover for him. And don’t give a crap if he gives you the silent treatment. Make his lack of work your manager’s problem, and your manager will care more about fixing it.

          Reply ↓
          1. Observer*

            So the way to report it is to report the CONSEQUENCES of William’s disengagement

            Exactly. I find it notable that the LW does not mention *any* impact on them or the team. It’s “I care about the work”, which is admirable, but doesn’t give them standing to make a fuss.

            Reply ↓
            1. Bitte Meddler*

              Yup. I had a Wilhelmina at a place I worked early in my career. She came in late, went to lunch early, came back late, talked on the phone all day with her family and friends, was slow to process any requests, and left work early damned near every day.

              She was our admin and I was in sales.

              I spent a week tracking her time and how she spent it.

              Then I scheduled a meeting with our boss because *of course* he would want to know what a crappy employee she was.

              Instead of thanking me, as I’d expected, he busted out laughing. And then he asked *me* how much of my time I had wasted creating the log.

              I got flustered and defensive, and he cut me off, “Look, you can’t care more than I do about how Admin spends her time. The only thing in your log that might possibly affect you is how long it takes for her to process documents for you, but you haven’t been giving her any deadlines, so we’re going to start with that. Only come back to me if she ignores your deadlines.”

              Ouch.

              Lessoned learned. Keep my eyes on my own paper unless the behavior is affecting my work in a measurable way.

              Reply ↓
        2. blah*

          So you’ve listed actual ways in which your William affected your work, LW didn’t include anything like that in their letter. If they have situations like this, then they have standing to talk about it with their boss! If not, the only thing they’re doing is wasting their own time tracking what William is doing.

          Reply ↓
      3. The Hourglass*

        I suspect that OP is already seen as a busybody

        This was my inference, too. I’d think differently if there were some hard evidence that OP is having to pick up slack left behind by her co-worker, but she says nothing about that; it appears she’s simply aggravated by the situation and has taken it upon herself to police it.

        Reply ↓
    3. Hyaline*

      Yeah, I came here to say this–there’s no indication in the letter that William is not producing the same quantity or quality of work, just that he’s working less time. The reality is, some people do get work done faster than others in a lot of fields…and Thomas may not care that William spends an hour screwing around on his phone as long as his share of the work is turned in in a timely manner and is of good quality. There’s probably a great hypothetical question to be discussed there–is fairness in work division determined by amount of work completed or number of hours worked–but that decision is above LW’s pay grade and Thomas has already, apparently, decided that whatever William is doing is fine, so LW should let it go.

      Reply ↓
      1. Trout 'Waver*

        >”There’s probably a great hypothetical question to be discussed there–is fairness in work division determined by amount of work completed or number of hours worked”

        That’s easy. If fair is number of hours worked regardless of efficiency, you’ll quickly find tasks taking longer and longer to accomplish.

        Reply ↓
        1. doreen*

          Depends on the job – for most of my working life the amount of actual, quantifiable (reports, interviews etc) work was fairly equal between people in comparable positions. If my weighted caseload came to 100% then the person next to me might have 95% or 105% and we would have all be doing roughly the same amount of work whether it took 25 hours or 35 or 45. But if I finished all of that work in 25 hours and therefore worked only five hours a day that didn’t mean phone calls about my cases only came in those hours. My coworkers would have been picking up phone calls and any work that went along with them for ten hours more a week than I did so it really wouldn’t have been fair for me to work ten hours less.

          Reply ↓
        2. Emmy Noether*

          I don’t think it’s quite that simple, because then the least efficient person on the team determines the division. And efficiency can vary quite a lot – is the person that is twice as efficient as another really supposed to twiddle their thumbs half the time? Plus the whole subject of fast vs. thorough.

          In theory, I think that very efficient people should be able to negotiate being paid more. In reality, most office jobs don’t have a great number of exactly equal tasks to distribute anyway, so efficiency is hard to compare.

          Reply ↓
        3. Hyaline*

          See, I think it depends on the role and the job–which is why it’s such a fun question. Things like reception, or dispatch, or “customer assistance”-based work definitely veer toward hours worked; project-based work veers the other way. Either is probably a mix though.

          Reply ↓
      2. Myrin*

        Quite apart from the fact that OP outright says that William is “not doing [his] share”, I doubt she would’ve included her first paragraph if William was actually just super efficient and faster than everyone else on the team.

        Reply ↓
        1. Observer*

          Yeah, but their idea of “his share” might be more about hours than actual work done.

          The LW’s judgement about what is relevant to mention seems a bit compromised, to be honest. I mean they mention that William comes late and notes that he generally has a coffee. Like why is that even relevant?

          Reply ↓
          1. doreen*

            There are situations where it might be relevant regarding why the LW is upset but I don’t think this is one of them. ( if I was sitting around at training or a meeting waiting for someone to show and they arrived 15 minutes late, I’d be way more annoyed if it was clear they stopped for coffee when they were already late) And it’s definitely not relevant to mention.

            Reply ↓
        2. DJ Hymnotic*

          I’d be curious about the nature of LW’s work. They are very clear that William is “not doing his share” but says that’s “due to obvious time mismanagement,” which isn’t the same as “William isn’t fulfilling his duties and we’re all picking up his slack.” So if they’re, say, in a department that has to respond to time-sensitive stuff and William’s tardiness and leisureliness is impacting that, I’d get LW being miffed. But I think the far more constructive way to go about remedying that is to clearly and directly explain to Thomas how William’s habits are adversely impacting the rest of the team, not to keep a log of William’s activity and try to manage William themselves.

          Reply ↓
    4. Ellis Bell*

      The OP says that they have more work to do when one of them is off sick – so it does sound like the work is shared. It also sounds like when the manager is giving reminders of expectations to the whole group, OP is taking them to heart as group scoldings, as though William reflects on them all as a whole. The thing is, it is very unlikely to be the case. This type of manager, who never deliver one on one feedback, usually think “Oh it’s more discreet to address them all, besides William will know I am talking about him, and OP will know that I am not”.. but the reverse is usually true; the conscientious employee feels guilty and the slacker employee isn’t even listening. If I were in OP’s shoes, I would just ask in these meetings what more they can do that they are not already doing: “I think we pretty much all do that already, so is anything we are missing?” Let it roll off their back and stay in their own lane. It’s the boss’ job to manage William. If William is holding up a group project, you can bring up the impact on your work “We were waiting on William to finish x before we could do y, and it took all of the day to get it back from him” but don’t just bring up what William is and isn’t doing because it offends a sense of right and wrong.

      Reply ↓
    5. Peanut Hamper*

      I was wondering about this myself.

      Back in the days when I was teaching and we still had paper gradebooks, I went to the actual computer store in an actual mall and paid $50 for a gradebook program. I would just enter my grades in the paper gradebook (the legally required one, that is) and then enter them into the computer. I told all my colleagues about this and they looked at me like I was crazy and said they didn’t want to maintain two different grade books. Fair enough.

      On the last day of the marking period, we had a half day to calculate grades and fill in the scantron sheets so that report cards could get printed. I printed out all my grades, filled in the scan sheets, and was done in 15 minutes. I then went around to my colleagues and asked if there was anything they needed help with. They asked me how I had the time and I said I was done with my grades because I had purchased a gradebook program. You know, the one they thought I was crazy to buy and use.

      So it’s possible that William just has more efficient workflows. (It’s also possible that his workflows don’t include spending time tracking what his coworkers are doing.)

      I have been about workflows ever since.

      Reply ↓
    6. Mockingjay*

      OP1, you didn’t say whether William got his work done. Assuming that he does, it’s up to Thomas whether to discipline William for excessive lounging. You can’t control William’s behavior, only your own.

      Now, if you and your teammates are picking up William’s slack – that does need to be addressed. But you don’t do that by complaining about William’s lack of butt in seat time or coffee breaks. You let him fail.

      Stop covering for someone who doesn’t do their job. Don’t pick up tasks assigned to William. Don’t pitch in to help William. “Sorry, I have a full load myself.” If Thomas holds the team responsible for the (lack of) actions of one person, then you know that your Boss sucks and isn’t going to change. The next step is for you to decide if you can work with that knowledge.

      Reply ↓
    7. learnedthehardway*

      I don’t understand why the OP feels they have the standing to be managing William’s activities? I mean, yes, he’s slacking and that’s annoying as all heck, but the MANAGER should be performance managing, not a coworker.

      Personally, I would be pointing out to my manager that I would be doing my work and not picking up the slack for William. I might also get other coworkers to point that out as well (individually or collectively). ie. make it hurt the manager, so the manager has to deal with it.

      You might also want to talk to HR about it, before implementing a “only doing MY job” tactic – just to get it on the record that there is a problem, it’s affecting you, and your manager won’t deal with it.

      Reply ↓
        1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          We don’t know the other coworkers are annoyed. We know OP is. Which may be justified or it may be a case of — he’s not working the way I think he should be.

          Reply ↓
    8. rebelwithmouseyhair*

      Yeah. I know watching us in action, everyone would have thought I was the slacker and my colleague the golden girl, because she was always on time, never left early, never got up to make herself a cup of tea, never did anything but work, in 17 years working together I never once saw her on a website that wasn’t for work. While I sauntered in late, took my shower after cycling, had my breakfast, nipped out for extra biscuits, made more coffee… and clocked up twice as many projects managed, twice as many files translated and twice as many files proofread, working fewer official hours and never doing overtime, while my colleague regularly took work home (without being paid for it).
      What matters most? putting in the hours or producing billable work?

      Reply ↓
    9. Dood*

      I was thinking the same. Is this impacting LW1’s workload negatively, and/or does LW1 actually have an accurate understanding of what William’s workload is?

      The rest of it may be deeply annoying, but it is irrelevant.

      One of the most productive people I’ve ever worked, Shane, with was quite like William in many ways, but he worked on extremely complex tasks with great aptitude, and had many years of experience, both of which meant his approach was different to that of many other people. But he could do work that they couldn’t, and with great speed. He was also a highly effective relationship builder, and what may have looked like pointless chatter to some was usually problem solving or networking that was beneficial to the team.

      Different people have different ways of working and different neurotypes and different approaches.

      Reply ↓
  8. niknik*

    LW#4: If anything, that clients shenanigans would entice me to stay in the loop with the coworker even more. Whats that all about ? Trying to hide something there ? (Probably some just power game, though.)

    Reply ↓
    1. Nocturna*

      This was basically my thought too. It’s possible that the client wants to leave the coworker with no recourse for abusive treatment–the client wants to be in the room all the time so that the client can either silence or spin anything the coworker might try to bring forward. I would definitely keep checking in with your coworker, though as Alison says, I wouldn’t let the client know.

      Reply ↓
      1. StellaPDXAmanda*

        OP Poster here: Yes. I thought it was so weird….they have been so weird thru the whole process. They are a government group so there is a bit of “their way or the highway mentality” but our clients usually seek our advice. The person who they want “included” in my exchanges, who we will call “Boris” is so rude to not only myself, but to their own staff. Its the most bizarre interaction I have had in my professional career (and I worked 15yrs in HR). I should also point out the co-worker does not directly report to me, but as a PM of the project, I have to keep tabs of what issues she was observing.

        Reply ↓
        1. Enai*

          Wait, I missed that youre the project manager. How does this client exoect you to manage the project if you’re nit supposed to communicate with the contributors? Would they call a taxi and then demand the driver be blindfolded because the destination is classified?

          Reply ↓
    3. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Doesn’t want new contact to know all the problems from before. Client knows they have a bad rep with the company and rather than trying to fix it, they just want it contained.

      Reply ↓
    4. The Rafters*

      I work with a Government agency. The only time I’ve ever heard of anyone trying this was that they were trying to get a different answer from the “no,” they received from us. Sometimes this would involve breaking. the. law. Of course, the parties involved always immediately contacted said fellow employee to talk about what was going on.

      Reply ↓
      1. HSE Compliance*

        ^This. The only time I’ve had people pull that was a shining example of workplace “Mom said no so I’mma ask Dad”.

        Reply ↓
    5. rebelwithmouseyhair*

      yeah this has shades of my boss accusing us of teaming up against him as if we were in a union… when we’d just discussed our holiday dates, saw that we all wanted different dates so there’d be coverage all through the summer, and the first one to ask for her time off just told him that the others were OK with her dates.

      Reply ↓
      1. The Unionizer Bunny*

        He sounds disgruntled that he didn’t get to play his usual power games. “I’m sorry, no, you can’t have that day off, someone else wants it. Who? They’re entitled to their privacy.” You make it to that day and everybody else is in the office? “Oh yeah, they changed their mind and I forgot to tell you. Sorry (not sorry).” You keep asking? “Okay so I was able to talk them into changing their vacation for different days but now you are not being a team player and I will keep you on but you owe me, so be grateful for your job and maybe go out of your way to do things like extra unpaid work so I don’t fire you.”

        When you talk with your coworkers directly, you take away that part of his power.

        Reply ↓
    6. Observer*

      If anything, that clients shenanigans would entice me to stay in the loop with the coworker even more. Whats that all about ? Trying to hide something there

      That was my first thought, as well.

      Reply ↓
    7. Moira's Rose's Garden*

      In my field, it’s called “siloing communication” & it’s (research) misconduct – when it stems from lack of training or organization. But it’s a consistent feature of malfeasance & fraud, so it’s the kind of thing that can turn a routine audit into a full investigation. It’s just no bueno.

      Unless covered by a (very well reviewed) agreement/contract with really compelling justification, I’d be telling client “I’m sorry, that’s not something we can do because of regulatory standards.”

      Reply ↓
    8. DrSalty*

      This. How to manage problem clients is 10000% something your internal team should be discussing amongst themselves. I would pull in a supervisor here for further guidance tbh since this client is waving huge red flags.

      Reply ↓
  9. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

    OP2 (Carol’s social expectations that we should “do something” for people) – I felt like John didn’t necessarily tell Carol that in confidence – because you already know people like Carol by reputation and they’re the last person you would tell something to as they will just go on and on, as she has. I think Carol just has very strong ideas of what people “should” do in these type of situations – like if John’s dad is in an accident, “we” “should” do something like organise a card and collection. This is out of step with most workplaces, and this one by the sound of it. I bet the reason John looked annoyed isn’t because Carol had shared something she’d been told in private, but because he’d already had one round with Carol giving her input about John’s dad. I know people very much like Carol and this is how it would go.

    Reply ↓
    1. Seashell*

      My guess would be that John thought it was odd that he was being asked about it a month later. That’s not OP’s fault, but I can understand why he was confused.

      My workplace would send flowers for a deceased parent, but I wouldn’t expect anything to be done for a parent in an accident other than saying, “I hope he gets well soon.”

      Reply ↓
  10. Adam*

    For LW4, I think this is a place where your company should have some standards around this. At some places where this kind of contracting is common, people contracting with a client are expected to act like employees of that client rather than employees of the contractor and not speak to their coworkers about what they’re working on (who may be working on similar projects for the client’s competitors, for instance). At others, the person is just helping out, possibly with multiple clients at a time, and nothing changes about how they do their job.

    Your place sounds like it’s one of the latter, but I’d just ask your boss what the expectations are.

    Reply ↓
    1. MK*

      Yes, I am not sure the answer is as cut and dried as AAM considers it. It sounds like the coworker is now also a contractor of the client, a.k.a. she has a second job, and OP had a meeting to talk to her about the work she does for the client, not the work they, as employees of their company, are doing for him. I don’t think it makes sense to forbid that, but the client has a right to say his contractor shouldn’t be discussing the work she does for him in her second job, with her coworkers at her first job.

      Reply ↓
    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I was wondering about the terminology here too. I hope that when you say the client contracted with one of your colleagues, you actually meant that they contracted with your employer to get the services of one of your colleagues.

      Because if the client contracted with one of your coworkers directly, as a side gig – wow, that’s a big screaming conflict of interest. Not to mention that the client isn’t exactly off base here. They see the work your colleague is doing for them as a direct engagement that should have nothing to do with the work that your employer is doing for them.

      Given that this is healthcare, the client may also be acting this way due to security and confidentiality concerns.

      No matter which situation it is, there’s something wrong here and I’m worried there’s a big problem of expectations.

      Reply ↓
    3. A*

      The wording also sounds strange to me but I’m going to assume that LW meant the client contracted the coworker through their company, and this is not a side gig. Otherwise, red flags, conflict of interests, etc etc.

      But, if the situation is that (a contract for professional services through the software company) what Alison recommends is perfectly reasonable. I work in a similar field and at OldJob my clients were pharma companies, and it’s quite normal for coworkers to talk to each other about the work they’re doing and share expertise. Talking about the software, possible bugs, workarounds: is fine. Talking about the client, e.g. they don’t check email often so you should call them: is fine. Talking about sensible data that you have come across while working on the project: no.

      It sounds like this client is overly controlling or doesn’t know the difference between an internal employee and someone contracted through professional services from another company. Either way, they’re not being reasonable and really the only solution is to keep doing what you’re doing (again as long as no sensitive information is being shared) and just not tell the client.

      Reply ↓
      1. StellaPDXAmanda*

        OP Poster here: Yes. Its not a side gig, but it is contracted thru our employer for a set number of hours a week for 3 months. Our organization will do this, but the employee is still employed by our company. Its tricky with the ownership of information due to the nature of our work (I cant get into more detail since it could lead sleuths to my specific company), but I think the underlying issue is that they believe that since they “contracted” the co-worker works for them, but lacks the fundamental that the co-worker is not “employed” by them.

        Reply ↓
    4. Momma Bear*

      I agree to talk to the boss, especially if it’s the same person for LW and the coworker. This client has a known history and they are trying to silo their assigned contractor. I’ve been an on-site contractor and never had this “you can’t talk to…” behavior from a client except with things like safeguarding proprietary information. At the end of the day, it is not the client signing anyone’s paycheck directly. I’d at least casually mention it to my boss if I were the new contractor because it’s likely this client will have other problems with overreach. If you want exclusive access to someone, you should hire them directly.

      Reply ↓
      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

        > If you want exclusive access to someone, you should hire them directly.

        I did get a funny feeling that they will (or are already in the process of) attempt to “poach” the colleague from OPs company – which would usually be frowned on or subject to additional terms between the two companies.

        Reply ↓
  11. RCB*

    #3, I did hiring for 10 years and looked through thousands of resumes in that time. I can’t think of one time that I looked up a school’s accreditation. I did google some schools to find out their reputation, but that was more a news articles or wikipedia page thing, you could get an idea pretty quickly if a place was a diploma mill or not. I personally don’t take accreditation seriously at all, I think pretty much any place can get accredited so I assume it’s a useless distinction, so I don’t look at it at all. In fact this is the first time I even knew there was a different between national and regional, and before it was explained I naturally assumed that national was better than regional, so I really didn’t know anything about it.

    Reply ↓
    1. Bumblebee*

      Accreditation is actually a serious amount of work, and affects whether or not a school can have financial aid $ available, so it’s a really big deal. It is not a useless distinction at all!

      Reply ↓
      1. Anon higher ed*

        I just recently started a new job working in a registrar’s office with transfer credit, and we had someone who had an entire degree’s worth of credit that we couldn’t transfer in because it was from a college that wasn’t regionally accredited. So the credits might not be portable to other institutions if they ever wanted to transfer.

        Reply ↓
    2. Sneaky Squirrel*

      Those for-profit schools usually got an eye roll from us more than anything, but we still counted them as degrees for the purposes of our work.

      Accreditation came up a few times for different reasons only because some of the universities lost accreditation leaving our employees with questionable degree situations. This was something that we learned more after the fact though.

      Reply ↓
    3. Person from the Resume*

      Well “University of the People” is the kind of name that would make you look up the reputation of the school. And from what I’ve seen in these comments it’s a school that doesn’t pay it’s faculty and charges $100 per class so I’m guessing the reputation isn’t that strong.

      Accreditation is difficult and weirdly regional is better than national, but I do think the accreditation is linked to a school’s reputation and status. If a university could it would obtain the more prestigious regional accreditation.

      Reply ↓
      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Yeah, I’m in Ireland, so I don’t know anything about the various categories, accreditations, etc in the US but that name would immediately have me wondering if it was some kind of scam or otherwise not a “real” university and if I were an employer, I’d probably be inclined to check if the person had a recognised qualification.

        Reply ↓
    4. Hyaline*

      …I’m forced to wonder why having the degree mattered at all to the hiring process if it didn’t even matter if the school was accredited. Like–fair! If it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter! But if it doesn’t matter, why bother with it at all? (Sorry, I at least partially blame rubber-stamp requirements for degrees to get jobs that don’t actually need them to do the work for degree inflation, forcing students who don’t want to be/shouldn’t be in college to go to college, and generally degrading the whole process…it’s my BEC and this makes me want to pull my hair out.)

      Reply ↓
      1. MigraineMonth*

        I think what RCB is saying is a bit more nuanced than that. They say that as a hiring manager they are aware of/care about the school’s general reputation, but they don’t look for accreditation specifically.

        However, are there any schools that don’t have regional accreditation that have a good (or even neutral) reputation? It may be that regional accreditation is necessary (but not sufficient) for a decent reputation.

        (Yes, I agree that we’ve created a ridiculous, expensive, exploitative, unequal, inefficient system for higher education. Personally, I’m in favor of abolishing most need-based financial aid and making state school tuition free; weirdly, it would just about balance. It wouldn’t fix everything, but at least we’d stop giving so much money that’s supposed to help the poor to private colleges and banks.)

        Reply ↓
      2. Starbuck*

        I mean, some places don’t have rigorous hiring standards, or they don’t bother to properly enforce them because people doing hiring don’t get training on what is important…. some professions, like teaching and nursing etc. are very careful about this and the specifics matter a lot and there are official check. Others it’s true it’s not the school’s accreditation that’s truly significant, but the level of rigor in the program. But accreditation is a pretty good proxy for that if you’ve got no other familiarity with the school; sounds like the commenter above was just going based on vibes which is…. an option I guess.

        Googling them is good but looking at the accreditation specifics would be a sensible thing to include; not understanding how accreditation works just means you should probably read a little about it first.

        Reply ↓
    5. learnedthehardway*

      I think whether the school matters really depends on the kind of role for which the person is being considered. For the kinds of roles I recruit, I expect people to have gotten a degree or diploma at an accredited school, IF a degree is required. I would flag an unaccredited school for the hiring manager, and evaluate that the person probably has the knowledge, but that further assessment needs to be done to ensure that the candidate has the skills one expects from a graduate of an accredited university.

      Reply ↓
      1. Anon higher ed*

        One of our local colleges messed up their accreditation for the specific K-12 education program one year, and the cohort of students attending at that time got really screwed over, from what I remember in the news. Portions of their education taken during the time the program was not accredited were not valid towards getting a teaching license in our state.

        Reply ↓
        2. Coverage Associate*

          Happened to my sibling’s EMT program as well. Someone in the administration chain wasn’t properly appointed/approved for their position, so all the qualifying exams that person signed off on didn’t count.

          The graduates of the program got a few months to retake the exam for free before their licenses were canceled.

          Reply ↓
      2. Just Thinkin' Here*

        This is important to note. Some licensing and industry certifications do require that the degree comes from an accredited school or has been approved by a government body.

        The best best would be for OP to talk to their local state run university systems and work from there. Otherwise, sounds like more money down the drain. And start working someplace that has education benefits – even Starbucks pays for some schooling.

        Reply ↓
  12. ThatOtherClare*

    LW#5 are there software-based ways to manage this? Could your work purchase you an e-sim that you could swap your phone over to every night? Or could whoever is contacting you use a different app (one that you don’t normally use for anything) such as WhatsApp or Discord that you’ve manually exempted from ‘Do Not Disturb’? Could they send you a message to a different device such as your tablet (if you have one) or an old phone? Some combination of the above? Personally I’d be pursuing some combination of an e-sim and either Apple Shortcuts, Android Routines, or Tasker to automatically schedule the daily change-over. But every device and workplace combination is unique, so if you already know those won’t work for you, I believe you.

    Reply ↓
    1. Emmy Noether*

      I think the simplest software-based solution is, like Alison suggested, to set up an exception to the do-not-disturb. It’s simplest if the call always comes from the same number, but I think now there are more sophisticated exceptions that can be set up (such as calling twice within a short time, etc.). Depending on what LW is trying to screen out, it could also be as simple as muting messaging services and app notifications and letting through “normal” phone calls (that’s how I have it set up – because I know that a real phone call at night is bound to be a family emergency). You can also selectively mute/unmute only certain chats, etc. Worth looking at the options.

      Having an e-sim would cost money, which is the point of contention.

      Reply ↓
      1. sparkle emoji*

        Yeah, LW mentions a small handful of specific notifications that are the issue (auto reminders from doctors and texts from family and friends three time zones ahead). If muting doesn’t make sensne, and you know the office will always call, you can set calls to go through while texts and emails don’t, or vice versa. I’d explore the settings and reach out to a tech savvy friend for help before sacrificing wfh stipend money or using capital to ask for a phone.

        Reply ↓
    2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      Those are incredibly convoluted. Any modern phone should allow you to set specific numbers to ring through even if DnD is on. That’s the software solution. I would do that first before asking for a work phone.

      Reply ↓
      1. ThatOtherClare*

        Maybe I’m wrong, but I went deep because I assumed the conversation wouldn’t be happening if the obvious solution was possible. Especially if someone is looking at buying a whole entire new phone and writing letters to Alison, instead of just taking 90 seconds to set ‘Do Not Disturb’ to ‘Calls Only’. That said ‘I have an old/weird phone’ to me.

        Reply ↓
    3. flip phone*

      If I was in this situation, had no legal recourse, and wanted to keep work and personal phones separate, I’d just buy a cheap flip phone with a cheap pay as you go plan, minutes only, no data. I’ve seen these in the $6 range. It’s still not fair that OP would have to pay, but it would be $60/year and perhaps worth the cost to keep work and personal separate.

      Reply ↓
      1. BattleRoyale*

        I ended up using my 2nd phone, making DND exceptions & just turning off the phone at night, anyway. They can’t use my stipend because they’re not laying out the money they proposed. My friend who is a mgr elsewhere said if they call when my phone is off (my boss once called & texted at 10pm!) I just was “unavailable” at that time. Seriously, no one’s life or well-being is at stake.

        I consulted a labor lawyer who said I would win the case if brought, but it could take yrs to settle.

        Reply ↓
    4. All emergencies, all the time*

      I think there might be an easier way – set up a Google voice number for anyone to call with emergencies and set THAT to override the do not disturb.

      Reply ↓
    5. BattleRoyale*

      I proposed a burner phone & they refused, said it’s not policy to pay for phones.

      In fact, every solution I proposed was declined & I was told by HR that I was being uncooperative. Of course, I documented everything in writing, the HR dir kept replying w/ misrepresentations & I kept correcting. It’s exhausting!

      Reply ↓
      1. Observer*

        Of course, I documented everything in writing, the HR dir kept replying w/ misrepresentations & I kept correcting.

        Very smart move! I responded to a different post before I saw this, but I did recommend that you do it in writing. I’m glad you’re doing that.

        Reply ↓
      2. ThatOtherClare*

        By ‘old phone or tablet’ I meant one of your own that you have lying around in a drawer somewhere unused. I think you have to accept that the company isn’t going to pay for a phone, so you need to look at other solutions that won’t cost you anything, or cost you as little as possible.

        Or the other option is that you can always leave, of course. Ultimately there’s no way any of us can control anyone else’s actions, so unfair as it is, the only guaranteed way out of an interaction that’s not going well for us is the literal way out. It’s not fair, because for many of us the only options for employment are going to be exploitative in some way. But the only control we have in the situation is in choosing which variation on those little exploitations we are willing to put up with in exchange for a roof over our heads, our food, a place in society, and opportunities to move up the corporate ladder to a position that’s less exploited.

        Should your choices be ‘Fix it yourself or leave’? No. Are they? Most likely. Is that fair? No. Is it worth wasting your precious energy on? Nah. Spend it if you want on making the big changes for a fairer and more compassionate society for employees on a wide scale, and things like work phones will trickle down from the top with zero effort. Trickle down economics doesn’t work, but trickle down ‘caring about the lives of people around you’ does. A company that cares will give everyone a phone without being asked, along with more annual leave and nicer chairs. And a government that cares will make sure the company is encouraged to do so. Please don’t exhaust yourself on trying to get a phone, my friend. The world’s just not in the right place for it.

        Reply ↓
  13. Karak*

    L1, how does William’s suckage affect you? Because you spend a lot of time watching William, documenting William, correcting William, but I don’t know why beyond your sense of outrage.

    Do your own work. And when William’s BS impacts you—by being unavailable, noisy, or fobbing his work onto you—then say something.

    If the assignments aren’t being divided evenly, then ask your boss for a raise that corresponds to the amount of work done by you. If he refuses, then you refuse—sorry, beyond my scope, too much on my plate. If they’re re-distributed on the back end, simply refuse William’s work, same reasoning.

    Stop fighting with William; it won’t help. Instead, make your boss miserable.

    Reply ↓
    1. TheFunBoss*

      I don’t know if this needs to be said, but this sounds more like shooting yourself in the other foot by going from being a busybody to being a slacker. If things truly are at a breaking point, maybe. Otherwise, don’t add to the stress on everyone else.

      Reply ↓
      1. Emmy Noether*

        I don’t think Karak is proposing slacking, exactly.

        There’s a certain type of person (and I have those tendencies as well), that just… takes over responsibilities. Proactively takes over slacker’s tasks to get the project done, proactively reminds other people to do their work, does anything to get the project done. It’s that person in the group project in school that ends up doing the part of that other person that doesn’t do anything, and nearly explodes of resentment in the process (that would be also me).

        But sometimes, the healthiest thing is to let go. Let the project flounder. Let the boss’s job be the boss’s job. Don’t do William’s work unless specifically instructed, and then warn that it will take a while, because you have your own workload. Don’t let “X will just do it” be the easy solution. Not slacking, just, not proactively do extra.

        Reply ↓
      2. MigraineMonth*

        There’s a difference between being the slacker and being the hero. If L1 and their colleagues’ workloads are significantly impacted by William’s slacking, then they’re having to go above and beyond every day just to hold things together, and more if anyone is sick or out on vacation. As long as L1 is making heroic efforts to sweep in and save the day, though, their manager and other higher ups don’t see the problem.

        The suggestion isn’t “become a slacker like William”, it’s “stop saving the day”. Do your own job, not William’s. Work your own hours, but not unpaid overtime. Make the problem with William your manager’s/upper level’s problem because his deadlines aren’t being met and deliverables aren’t being delivered instead of doing his work for him.

        Yes, you need to talk to the team and get people on board before you pull back to doing only your own work, because if some people do this and others don’t, those still in the “meet the deadline at any cost (to myself)” mindset will burn themselves out and undermine the goal.

        Reply ↓
    2. Hyaline*

      And if it *doesn’t* affect you, because William does get his work done in apparently 3/4 of the time it takes you or because his lack of productivity is your boss’s problem, not yours, accept that none of this is your problem and let it go.

      Reply ↓
      1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

        And, if in fact William is more productive despite not looking it, be prepared for him to even be promoted to a job that will stretch him more.
        (I just reread the letter, at no point does OP say she or anyone else ever has to clean up stuff that William hasn’t managed to finish so I think he’s maybe getting work done more quickly than everyone else)

        Reply ↓
    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Yeah, I was kind of confused by the response to this letter because, as you note, it very much seemed like a garden variety “stay out of it until you can bring something to your boss about how it’s impacting your work and ask him how he wants that handled” letter.

      I get where the LW is coming from because when I was younger all this stuff would have bothered me too. It always feels like an injustice when other people get away with not working as hard as you do. But you have to get over it, especially if you otherwise love your job, because every job you have will have people like this. Silence your inner cop, because it doesn’t make you happy and it won’t change anything if you’re not actually impacted by your colleagues slacking off. “It’s not fair!” always needs to be coupled with “But does it actually matter?” Sometimes the answer is yes! But a lot of the time the answer is no.

      Reply ↓
      1. MigraineMonth*

        I think it depends on how you interpret the statement that William is “clearly not doing their share due to obvious time mismanagement”.

        Is LW1 saying that William is definitely not doing their share, and they blame it on their time management issues? In which case, it makes sense that the manager keeps reiterating the expectations around time management, and it’s crappy management that they do so in group meetings instead of one-on-one with William.

        Alternately, is LW1 saying that they see William isn’t always busy (arrives late, chats, plays on phone) and has decided based on this that he’s slacking and isn’t doing his fair share?

        I think Alison is assuming the first, but a lot of commenters read it as the second.

        Reply ↓
  14. r..*

    LW4,

    Client is completely off their rockers.

    The employee is not working for them; they are working for you, and the client is merely the customer, not the employee’s manager. Outside of very special cases, which are always handled with a non-disclosure agreement, it is *never* appropriate for the contracting party to demand that contractor’s employee’s not talk about to their manager (line or project) about the contract work.

    They’re not even directly contracting the employee; they are obtaining a service from your company. If client is unhappy with only having indirect control and authority they need to stop contracting this work out and hire employees.

    As a matter of fact, if I combine what you wrote about the client, and how they’re reacting now, this would likely see us moving that particular client to the “eff you” pricing schedule, where you don’t really want to take the client/contract, and hence quote a very high price designed to either discourage the client from taking it up, or if they take it up it’ll at least be worth your while (and there’s more than enough margin to both benefit the bottom line and giving a good “we are sorry you have to work on that one” bonus to the employees having to take one for the team.

    Reply ↓
    1. Antilles*

      Agreed.
      This is an extremely unusual demand. Some projects do have elevated security restrictions even within a company, but that’s ALWAYS discussed ahead of time (usually during the initial contracting phase) and backed with written paperwork – and if it was violated, they’d be citing said paperwork and telling you full-stop do not discuss this. It’s not something where they just suddenly decide off the cuff that they don’t like you talking to others within your firm unless we’re present.
      Frankly, if I was OP, I would actually be looping in more people at my company about the client’s request (and likely documenting the do-not-discuss request in writing if it’s not already), because this feels incredibly shady, like they’re trying to hide something.

      Reply ↓
    2. Sugarholic Teacher*

      The “f you pricing schedule!” Love it! I agree this is a red flag. Sounds like the client is a control freak, at the very least.

      Reply ↓
  15. bamcheeks*

    LW5, this feels like focussing on the wrong thing. Your employer wants to be able to call you in to reception duties any time day or night? Who pays for your phone sounds like the *least* of your issues. Unless you’re on a seven-figure salary and/or have a very significant stake in the company’s profits, this is an absolutely wild expectation and I don’t quite get how the phone thing is the sticking point!

    Reply ↓
    1. I should really pick a name*

      What do you find wild about it?
      Reception is a role where coverage is important, so they want to be able to reach someone to cover the role if the regular receptionist calls out with short notice.

      Personally, I think the LW should get a pay bump for the inconvenience. I don’t love the request, but I don’t consider it to be egregious.

      What other solutions would you propose?

      Reply ↓
      1. bamcheeks*

        The 24/7 part of it. Being back-up cover weekdays 8-10pm or one weekend in 4 would be one thing. Being on a list of half a dozen people who MIGHT get a call any time, but if you don’t answer they just move down the list is another. But an employer who requires you to answer literally any time day or night is horrendous.

        Reply ↓
      2. Hyaline*

        IDK, it sounds like this is outside LW’s scheduled hours, and the expectation of what LW is supposed to DO about this seems unreasonable. Basically being on call all the time is not reasonable. LW is supposed to NEVER be away from her phone, just in case the usual receptionist calls in sick, so they can get her to cover IMMEDIATELY? That’s…a rather large request for what sounds like a low-level job. I get that reception needs to covered, but there are other ways to get coverage than making one employee essentially be on call all the time; one place I worked, other people working that shift would take turns covering it, for example.

        Reply ↓
        1. I should really pick a name*

          The vibe I’m getting is that they need to be able to reach the LW to confirm that they’ll be covering reception the next day, not that they need to drop everything and cover reception at 3AM.
          Though alternate interpretations are totally fair. It’s not clear from what’s written.

          Reply ↓
          1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

            That’s how I interpret this as well. OPs employer wants to hand off the news to OP that “hey, you’ve gotta cover reception” as soon as they know that to be the case – not to sit on the information and call OP at some time that’s mutually convenient.

            I could especially see this being the case for a business that needs reception coverage for more than just 9-5. A lot of B2B businesses – warehouses, construction materials, etc – need to have somebody on pretty early in the morning.

            Reply ↓
            1. Hyaline*

              But if it’s just “informing you of reception coverage tomorrow” during LW’s regularly scheduled hours, couldn’t that be a text message? Why does LW need to respond? Unless it’s frequently an issue that LW would say “Ope, can’t, for reasons” why does this need to be a phone call with conversation? And if it’s not during regularly scheduled hours, and LW is getting called in even if it’s for the next day, then it’s back to being on call 24/7, which is not reasonable for a job like this.

              Reply ↓
              1. I should really pick a name*

                We don’t have details on whether covering reception is always during the LW’s regular hours or not, or whether it’s a phone call or text, but if the company wants them to be able to receive the message 24/7, presumably they would also want confirmation from the LW so they know that reception is covered.

                Reply ↓
              2. doreen*

                Apparently LW is WFH so it’s possible that covering reception might mean going to the office. And the letter doesn’t say it needs to be a phone call with conversation – just that the phone needs to be turned on. It’s entirely possible that a text message with a response of “OK” is acceptable to the employer – they might just want acknowledgment that the LW got the message.

                Reply ↓
          2. BattleRoyale*

            The story keeps changing. Originally, it was reception coverage, but it changed to: they insist on being able to reach me 24/7, 365, for emergencies of their definition. One such emergency was that my boss was at the airport at 10pm & couldn’t figure out his rental car situation. Instead of finding a temp solution, he complained to HR that he couldn’t reach me at 10pm on a weekend.

            Reply ↓
            1. Rainy*

              I think this is a case of “your employer sucks and isn’t going to change.”

              It is completely bats that your boss thinks that he should be able to call you at 10pm so you can talk to someone at the rental car counter. It is absolutely bananas that your company thinks that “reception desk emergencies” are a thing, let alone a 24/7 thing. It is thoroughly bonkers that anyone would think that breaking state employment law to put an electronic leash on you is a reasonable thing to do.

              Your boss is a wingnut and it’s pretty obvious that nobody in leadership is going to check him or it would have happened already. I think I’d stall-stall-stall on all this 24/7 on-call business while you find a new job.

              Reply ↓
            2. Joron Twiner*

              Yeah this isn’t about reception coverage. They want to pay you for covering the front desk for 8 hours, and treat you as a 24/7 gofer like in Devil Wears Prada. Red flags everywhere!!

              Reply ↓
        1. Peanut Hamper*

          I can think of a few: hospitals, hotels, etc. But they already have a system in place to cover people who call in sick, and they are nowhere as whackadoodle as this system.

          Reply ↓
      5. Chocolate Covered Cotton*

        Seriously? Just because a *position* requires 24/7coverage doesn’t mean the employee filling it has to be on call 24/7.

        The solution is to hire enough people to fill the shifts you need and set up an on-call rotation among them such that everyone has to be on call once a week or so. Pay them something for that on call time, and pay their regular wages , with OT if necessary, if you have to call them in.

        This is done all the time, it’s not hard.

        Honestly, the only time “be available 24/7 to drop everything and come in anytime” is a reasonable expectation is if your skill set is rare and expensive and you’re the only one available. Even then , it’s not a reasonable expectation unless very well compensated.

        Even the President of the US gets to sleep.

        Reply ↓
    2. BattleRoyale*

      Agreed! I am sure that part of the prob is that I once reported my boss for saying he wouldn’t hire someone of a particular race for a job. They are simply trying to force me out.

      Reply ↓
      1. bamcheeks*

        Oh boy, they are FULL OF BEES.

        One thing I would say in this situation is don’t get into the mindset of “if I leave, they win”. If you get another job and get away from this house of bees, YOU win. There almost certainly isn’t a prize for sticking it out.

        Best wishes, and I hope something better comes along!

        Reply ↓
  16. E*

    LW3 – Look into your state’s universities and colleges. My state (Florida) has the big universities but also several smaller colleges that offer online bachelor programs for a more reasonable price. I finished my degree 3 years ago and paid about $2000 a semester for a full course load at one of the regional colleges. It’s more than $100/class but way less than a private or for profit school.

    Reply ↓
    1. Jackalope*

      I would also say don’t dismiss private schools without looking at their financial aid packaging. My experience, both personally and from talking with others, is that they often have really good scholarship systems to make up for the extra expense, and if you can get approved for them then they can actually be cheaper than state schools. YMMV, of course, but it’s worth looking into.

      Reply ↓
      1. Dust Bunny*

        This was the case for my next-younger sibling and I. We went to the same technically-pricey private school but it knew it was pricey and gave out piles of scholarships, and since there were two of us it was very manageable (although this was years ago).

        Reply ↓
    2. Magpie*

      Definitely consider smaller state schools. The smaller, lesser known state schools are generally also very good schools but they have a harder time attracting students which means they often offer much better financial aid. The lesser known state school close to where I live recently started offering free tuition to all Pell eligible students and they offer really nice aid packages to pretty much everyone.

      Reply ↓
  17. Chairman of the Bored*

    IMO to response to “my boss lets a colleague come in late and screw around on his phone” is to start coming in late and screwing around on your phone.

    Don’t complain about it, just claim those same perks for yourself.

    Reply ↓
    1. NaoNao*

      Sadly, it never works that way–or hardly ever works that way. I’ve found out the hard way. When I was younger, I would go out of my way to work hard and ask for more work and always be working. There would be some slacker who for inexplicable reasons the boss would not just tolerate but actively protect, and that person got away with stuff the rest of us could not. I believe this is called “the personality hire” nowadays.

      Reply ↓
    2. Ellis Bell*

      So, live down to the one poor little example even though most of the people on the team are a better example? I think that’s a great way to make sure you don’t get promoted, or good references. Yes, William should be getting managed properly, but he’s not getting anything from the free ride except poor professional standards.

      Reply ↓
    3. New Jack Karyn*

      It’s entirely possible that the guy is getting his work done on time, but is simply more efficient than LW. So the boss isn’t coming down on him for the seemingly unproductive time.

      Reply ↓
  18. Falling Diphthong*

    I appreciate that 1, 2, and 4 are all about being a small social band of apes, monitoring each other and exchanging gossip to bring about unit cohesion.

    (Not a dis; how to perform and scale that is a question societies need to figure out how to solve.)

    Reply ↓
    1. Peanut Hamper*

      I thought the same thing. I sometimes wonder what an evolutionary anthropologist would make of the questions this website gets.

      Reply ↓
  19. Left Turn at Albuquerque*

    LW #3, one thing to consider is whether you hope to enter into an industry that requires licensing or is subject to government regulation. I work for a state licensing agency and we accept transcripts from regionally accredited colleges and universities only for prospective candidates. I would look into the relevant agency if this is something that could apply to you and review their licensing qualifications.

    Reply ↓
  20. A Book about Metals*

    For what it’s worth, I hire and manage sales teams – it wouldn’t matter to me whether your degree was from Princeton, Alabama, or University of Phoenix or whoever..

    I realize that’s just one person’s take and every industry/role is different, but just to say not everyone will care that much

    Reply ↓
    1. Bleu*

      I do think that most businesses would consider University of Phoenix a negative, not a positive. As has been noted in previous letters, it’s not just about getting scammed, it’s about the employer wondering if the applicant doesn’t have a good sense of how academically rigorous a normal school is, if they couldn’t tell that UoP was way beneath that level. Unfortunate, but a consideration.

      Reply ↓
  21. El l*

    OP1:
    How is the quality of his work product? How much does he get done in the lesser time?

    We’re hearing a lot about his time, but not much about his productivity.

    If he is indeed getting less QC’d work done than should be expected, I’ll shut up. But if he is meeting expectations- and FWIW that’s more your boss’ call then yours – then that’s that.

    Reply ↓
  22. WellRed*

    College OP; you are getting lots of advice about options for finishing your degree and I hope you find something workable for you. But please make sure you have a realistic plan in place for what, when, where, how you will make it work this time, how much it will cost you, preferably with a professional at a school.

    Reply ↓
    1. Just Thinkin' Here*

      Exactly. OP needs guidance and a definitive plan that walks every class and semester through graduation. Otherwise it’s more of a wish list and will just add to the debt. The other option is that maybe college isn’t right for OP and they should look into other professional/career options.

      Reply ↓
      1. OP #3*

        I agree that college isn’t right for some folks. I don’t think that’s necessarily true for me. I work in accounting and need a degree in order to continue in my career. For whatever reason, getting a degree has a been my personal Mt. Everest. Some of the difficulties were from mistakes on my part, some of it was just life happening that made continuing impossible and a majority is the overwhelming cost of obtaining a degree. Even something as small as paying for parking at a university and the cost of books made it 100% more difficult than education needs to be or should be.

        For refence, I started at Notre Dame, transferred to another private college and then transferred to Boise State. I then eventually dropped out after dealing with some personal matters that prevented me from continuing.

        I was in and out of homelessness growing up but still managed to learn three languages and spend a year as an exchange student in high school and won many state awards for achievement. I ultimately was accepted to many top name colleges and universities. Unfortunately, I was doing the college thing alone when I was younger and didn’t have the skill set or experience to understand the difficulties and pitfalls that can happen when attending a university.

        And I would say that not the university professionals that I have talked to do not fully understand the pitfalls and challenges either. Many that I talked to are in an education bubble, and don’t understand the real world implications of certain aspects of higher ed.

        Reply ↓
        1. OP #3*

          Oy vey! lol so many typos. Apologies. Hopefully, my message still comes across clearly.

          And I would say *that the* university professionals that I have talked to do not fully understand the pitfalls and challenges either. Many that I talked to are in an education bubble, and don’t understand the real world implications of certain aspects of higher ed.

          Reply ↓
          1. Michelle Smith*

            It came across clearly. And I would ask that you please write in to the site again when you get your degree so I and the rest of the commenters can celebrate with you. You’re going to do this!

            Reply ↓
    2. OP #3*

      I have not had good luck with education professionals. I think that many are in a bubble and don’t understand the wider implications of certain aspects of higher ed.

      For example, many tout getting a degree in anything (like drama or creative writing) and say it will be helpful. While that is true for some, let’s look at how many servers have masters degrees in something and how much debt they have.

      I have, however, sat down with my boss and created an education and career map. That advice, I trust. She is a CPA and she has both education and real world experience.

      Reply ↓
  23. Trout 'Waver*

    OP#1: It is somewhat ironic that you spend time to monitor William when it’s not your job and are annoyed that William isn’t doing his job. The time spent policing your coworkers is just as wasted as the time William spends slacking.

    Also, I do want to point out that for a standing team to cover a job function, there needs to be slack in the system. So the job can still get done if there’s a surge in demand, or someone is out sick. It’s not reasonable for people to be occupied with mission-critical work 100% of the time. That means even the slightest disruption causes outages. As long as the work is evenly divided and it’s getting done (which you say it is), stop policing your coworkers.

    Also, of course someone is going to interact with you the absolute minimum possible if you’re constantly policing them and reporting on them to their boss.

    Reply ↓
    1. Ellis Bell*

      I can’t get over the fact he’s voicing it to William and expecting to be taken seriously. He’s not William’s boss, and if anything William will be even more disinclined to do things, if a peer is the one instructing him to do it. Although OP flatters themselves they are being professional, I’m unsure how they could be received as anything other than rudely overstepping. There are ways to raise workflow issues with peers, but you’ve got to make it sound like a request or a neutral “when you’ve got a minute” observation of what’s needed. You can’t just go around scolding your coworkers, or reminding them of expectations, calm tone or not.

      Reply ↓
  24. Doont-da-doont*

    LW3 – I agree with those recommending state colleges/university as your best bet to completion. I see my reflection reading your letter and wanted to share my story with the hope it gives you some inspiration.

    I was exactly in the same place you find yourself in now for the near exact same reasons (multiple changes in major, a few college/university transfers, life stuff, and life stuff had me in undergrad well into my 30’s). I was 33 when I walked into my state university advisor’s office with my educational history in hand and literally asked “what do I need to do to finish something? At this point, I don’t care what it is, I just want to be done and have a degree!” 2 semesters later, this Fine Arts/Chemistry/Pre-pharmacy/Art History/ Chinese Language student graduated with Liberal Arts Bachelors degree. Then I signed up for a one year MBA.

    Years later, I find myself happily working in technology GRC (after stints in Account Management and Legal/Compliance) and find that my wild educational and work background to be an asset. Yes – I also still have the burden of the significant student debt I built during my “Lost Years,” but I have a good salary that supports a modest life, even with the student debt.

    I wish you the best!

    Reply ↓
  25. Bill and Heather's Excellent Adventure*

    LW1, based on the info you’ve given, Thomas isn’t interested in fixing the problem. He probably just ‘reminds’ William of company expectations without following through. So William continues to get away with doing as little as possible. Whether you can do anything about this depends on how much ‘capital’ you want to expend, either by going over Thomas’s head to HIS manager (emphasising how William’s actions are impacting your work) or to HR. Even better if you can get a group of people to say the same thing. Or maybe it’s time to look elsewhere.

    LW4, you already stated this client has been hard to work with and unpleasant, this is just a new facet of the same awful behaviour. There’s nothing wrong with what you did, the client is just being a controlling ass.

    Reply ↓
  26. Lily Potter*

    LW3, this all comes down to WHY you want to complete your degree. As noted in the answer, if it’s a check-box requirement to advance in your career – maybe University of the People will qualify. I’ll let others respond to the accreditation issue as I’m not well versed in that.

    However – you mention that this is a “bucket list item”. Are you wanting to finish because you want to FEEL like a college graduate? If that’s the case, I’d steer away from the kind of online school that doesn’t pay its faculty (per response above). You want to have pride in your education and in your alma mater. If you go this route, for the rest of your life, you’re going to be explaining and/or defending your school. Someone will ask “where did you get your degree?” and you’re going to have to answer “University of the People” …… and then spend 10 minutes defending why it’s not a diploma mill. Unfortunately, its very name sounds flaky.

    Do yourself a favor and pursue a legitimate degree. No need to go to the biggest land grant college in your state – get an informational meeting with someone at State U instead. The admissions people LIVE for people like you – they WANT to help you! You might have to do it one class at a time but it will be a legitimate education in the end.

    Reply ↓
    1. WellRed*

      I agree with this advice generally, but I sincerely doubt OP is going to spend the rest of her life being asked where she went to school. Outside of certain circles, people really don’t care. And the older one gets, the more they DGAF what others think, anyway.

      Reply ↓
      1. metadata minion*

        Yeah, I’m even in academia, one of the few areas where people care about it, and I can’t remember the last time someone asked me where I went for undergrad. People will occasionally ask about my graduate school, but that’s partly because there just aren’t that many library science programs out there, so they’re all pretty well-known to anyone in the field (in the US, at least).

        Reply ↓
      2. Hyaline*

        I agree with both of you–the frequency of the question is probably “not very often” but I do agree with the core idea of “if you want to feel proud of your degree, pick a school you’d feel proud to say you got a degree from (or at least not embarrassed).” And that varies for everyone, but if you feel dodgy about your degree, that doesn’t fulfill the “bucket list” element of LW’s question.

        Reply ↓
      3. Lily Potter*

        Maybe it’s because I’m single and dating – but the question of “where did you go to school” comes up often when getting to know new people – and I’m middle aged!

        Reply ↓
          1. Lily Potter*

            Indeed! “Where did you go to college” is a staple first-date conversation. The answer can lead to all kinds of interesting conversational paths. The LW is a single mom; if she chooses to date in the future it’s very, very likely that “where did you go to college” will be a topic of conversation. If she answers “University of the People”, the conversation is going to go down the path of diploma mills, rather than “big school vs small school” or “my sister graduated from there; I used to go to their football games” or “how did you like living in Happy Valley”

            Reply ↓
    2. OP #3*

      I really appreciate this advice. This really resonates with me. I do want to get a degree for me. It’s my personal Mt. Everest and it makes sense to me that if I’m going to do this then I should go somewhere that I will be proud to have graduated from.

      Reply ↓
  27. Sneaky Squirrel*

    #2 – You sound like you have a culture of doing things for people – which is lovely – but you may want to set a practice standard on what types of celebration/commiseration events your office will do things for so and how employees can tap into that to make a request on behalf of someone. I’m envisioning that with a practice established, you could have pushed back on Carol and said something like “I’m sorry to hear about John, but John hasn’t said anything about his family. Please ask him if he’d like flowers and submit a request”.

    Reply ↓
  28. Generalist*

    LW5, this is a great use case for Google Voice. Set up a Google Voice number for *only this purpose* (don’t give the number to anyone else), and forward calls to that number to your cell. Then set that number to interrupt the DnD on your own phone, and you’re all set.

    Reply ↓
  29. samwise*

    OP #3
    Start with your local community college (I’m assuming you’re in the US). You may be able to transfer some of your college/university classes to the community college towards an associates degree.

    While you are doing this, contact a state university if there is one reasonably near you. There’s also probably a way to take courses online, and many state universities (individual institutions and perhaps the state university system as a whole, depends on the state) offer some online degrees. You will know best if online courses are a good choice for you. Some students struggle to keep on track with online courses — you do need to be disciplined, have good time management and executive function skills, and recognize when you need help and willing to find and use it. See if the school has a transfer portal and dedicated transfer advisors. They can help sort through your transcript and advise you about coursework at the community college.

    Good luck!

    Reply ↓
  30. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

    #1: Document, document, document. This is how I got my passive boss to get rid of a lazy coworker. He KNEW this guy wasn’t pulling his weight, but he wouldn’t do a darn thing about it until I presented him with notes on all the times I saw the guy playing solitaire and all the times he took credit for stuff I had done.

    Reply ↓
    1. Observer*

      No, the LW needs to step back and stop documenting stuff that is not theirs to manage!

      What they *should* document is any *actual* problems that are caused by William. And when Thomas gives a mass scold, they should ask Thomas what specifically he wants LW to do differently. And document the response to that.

      Otherwise, it’s none of their business and they need to stick to their business.

      Reply ↓
  31. Milly*

    I also work with a William, though thankfully she’s not as bad as the one LW1 describes. When she’s late or texting on her phone, I’d love to let things go, but we work in a hospital lab. Orders and requisitions keep arriving, and some of them might be urgent, so while she’s surfing the web, someone needs to at least retrieve the order and check how stat it might be, or dispense a drug to whoever’s waiting at the counter. It’s not “William” or the boss who pay the price if the work doesn’t get done; it’s the patients. People have talked to her about this but it makes no real difference.

    Once, though, it was just her and me on a shift, and she was on the phone having a long leisurely chat with a friend while I filled orders. So I told her I was going to the washroom and took a long leisurely trip there. By the time I returned, she had somehow wrapped up her phone call and was working. It was a sweet moment.

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  32. Owl-a-roo*

    LW4: I’ve worked in healthcare IS for a decade and have done a couple dozen implementations (it’s a big network). Some offices just do not have the maturity to accept change. This is an attempt to feel like they are in control of some part of the process.

    Please keep meeting with your coworker! Your letter speaks volumes about what it’s like to work for their miserable office; and as a person who has dealt with their BS before, you are well positioned to give her a safe space to vent. I’m sure she needs it! If their staff quitting is directly tied to the implementation, there’s no way that the operational/managerial staff is providing any useful support to your coworker.

    Reply ↓
  33. Lisa*

    LW3, look at Study Hall, offered by ASU and Crash Course. It’s only $25/course to register, and then you have the option to pay the full price and add it to your transcript if you are happy with your grade. It works out to less than $150/credit.

    Reply ↓
  34. NotYourCall*

    OP1, it is not your job to say anything to William. If you must say something to Thomas, do so once or very infrequently. You don’t know the arrangement Thomas has, or if he’s working while doing some of the things you consider fooling around. He may chit chat with employees to build relationships he needs and that are allowing him to produce better product. He may do his best thinking while his hands are busy doing something mindless. He may be taking extra breaks for medical reasons. If Thomas isn’t calling him out maybe Thomas is being awful or maybe there are good reasons. Either way, that’s between Thomas and William. Thomas may be mismanaging Willian or he may not be but not be at liberty to explain why. And I say that as someone who has worked with a lot of William’s and gets very frustrated with them. But nothing good comes from complaining to Thomas about it. Gripe to a coworker who feels the same way or to folks outside of work to get it off your chest, but that’s all you can constructively do.

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  35. Observer*

    #5 – One quick note. You don’t have to turn off your phone, all you need to do is have your phone automatically go into DND at a certain time, so none of these things ping you. That’s a good idea, regardless of this situation.

    Can your boss require you to be available 24×7? If not, try to push back on that.

    Lastly, you say that the plan is “excessive”. What does that mean? Of course, you should not have to pay a penny, but I’m curious what they are asking for.

    Reply ↓
    1. BattleRoyale*

      An iPhone that they choose w/ a plan they choose & memory they choose that I pay for when they SAID all they need is to be able to reach me 24/7 so they can talk to me about emergencies if their definition. A burner flip phone for $25 would work, but they refuse to pay a cent.

      Reply ↓
      1. Observer*

        I’d say that you need to make them put it in writing, with an explanation of why it has to be this.

        Make sure that HR, your grandboss anyone else relevant are on the email. And BCC your out of work email.

        Bring up the issue of California’s legal requirements.

        You also want to make sure that they need to explain why you need all of this extra power if all it is, is about reaching you in an emergency. Because even needing to be able to also use WhatsApp or some such doesn’t need a high end phone with lots of data. So they want something other than emergency contact. Make them spell it out.

        Reply ↓
  36. Observer*

    #4 – Unreasonable client.

    Something is very off. I would suggest that you and your colleague start document every interaction between them and the client, and your meetings. I would also document your material interactions with your colleague. Most likely your client is the problem here, and documentation is likely to come in handy down the line. However, in the small possibility that the client is taking a very poor way to protect themself from something shady with your coworker, it would help for you do document stuff on your own.

    Reply ↓
    1. GreenDoor*

      Agreed. Your colleague works for your company and is *assigned* to the client. The client has no say in your company’s inner workings. Part of properly supervising your colleague is not only doing check-ins like you’ve been doing, but also creating an environment where they can safely report things to you! Like if the Client is asking them to skirt your company’s policies, pressuring them to work abnormal hours, share privileged information of other clients, or any number of other things, your colleague needs to be able to candidly report things to your organization’s management, which they can’t do if they can only talk about Client when Client is present. This is an inappropriate demand of the client.

      Reply ↓
  37. Admit POSt*

    OP#3: I can’t comment on the quality of the education at University of the People or the issue around paying faculty but I can say that I know for work reasons that University of the People is currently a candidate for regional accreditation (this is publicly available info, you can check http://www.chea.org for US accreditations) so there’s a possibility that in the next 2-5 years this question becomes a moot point. I will say if they fail the bid for regional accreditation I would stay away.

    Reply ↓
  38. Czech Mate*

    LW 3 – I work in higher ed (previously in workforce development). I wouldn’t recommend taking classes at a school with questionable accreditation because the long-run value of the degree is less certain (i.e. it could turn in to a University of Phoenix situation down the road). Here are some things you could consider:

    -Applying for jobs that will help pay for college credits–they should be listed in the benefits package!
    -Applying for jobs in higher ed. Some schools will let employees go to school for free, and not all positions necessarily require a bachelor’s to get started.
    -Visit your local Workforce Board to see if they can offer additional support for folks who are trying to increase their skills/education. (They sometimes have options for, say, individuals who do not have college degrees who want to get into high-demand fields like nursing.)
    -Look into extension schools of local universities in your area. My university, for example, has a night school option specifically for folks in your situation. You can start by doing just one class at a time and the programs are flexible enough for you to stop out, take breaks, etc. They can be good if combined with some of the other funding options mentioned above.

    Good luck!

    Reply ↓
  39. Kelly*

    I used to work for an online degree mill (that’s what they are, there’s no ifs about it) and I would warn the letter writer to be very careful. These companies exist because they know how to screw you. They promise one price and it ends up being much, much higher. They know how to make sure your education drags on so you end up owing much more than you had planned. They are as dangerous as a pyramid scheme. If you do get screwed, getting help is very difficult–these companies are regulated by the federal government, which operates … poorly, like government does. So don’t expect the regulators to protect you. No degree is better than destroying your credit and financial wellbeing for a worthless diploma.

    Reply ↓
  40. Half a Cupcake*

    OP3, I got my degree from Western Governors University, which is online and quite inexpensive, but also regionally accredited. Something like that might also be a good fit for you if you’re concerned about the accreditation factor.

    Reply ↓
  41. MerrilyWeScrollAlong*

    LW #1, if it’s a waste of time for William to be “chit chatting with colleagues and scrolling on his phone”, certainly it’s a waste of time for you to be tracking how much time he’s spending doing those things?

    It’s always annoying when a coworker doesn’t take on as much responsibility as they should and makes more work for others, but it’s not your job to be a hall monitor. You’ll just end up spending your time focusing on him instead of work and then you’re doing the same thing he is, and where does that get you?

    Reply ↓
  42. Space Needlepoint*

    Some clients…

    When you hire an expert, you generally don’t tell them how to do their job beyond high-level. I ask a plumber to fix a leak, but I don’t tell them how to find the source or what materials to use. That’s why I called a plumber!

    Talking to your co-worker was a totally normal thing to do, and it was in the interest of the project. It’s not like you were gossiping, for crying out loud.

    Reply ↓
  43. Salty Caramel*

    I swear I worked for this company years ago and some of the clients were just wild. I remember one who demanded to know what other client I had a meeting with when I needed to get off the phone.

    Then there were the people who were only civil if a VP was on the call.

    Reply ↓
  44. Susannah*

    LW1, I feel you – I know it sucks to have a colleague not pulling his or her weight.
    But this is a peer, right? Not someone who reports to you?
    Is it really a good use of your time to be monitoring William’s phone use, arrival time, etc.? And what issue awful about carrying a cup of takeout coffee with him when he arrives?
    Unless it’s causing YOU more work (by having to cover for him, etc.), then it’s really not your problem. I know; I know it’s hard to see someone slacking off when you are following office rules about time, etc. But do you really want to be that colleague (like the one who kept a spreadsheet of other people’s days off and late arrivals)?

    Reply ↓
  45. Antihoarder*

    I know LW#1 has other issues with William and this isn’t The Point, but it really aggravates me when people single out coming in with a drive-thru coffee as the reason someone is late. For all everyone knows, the traffic/backup/road closure/delay happened AFTER I picked up my drink.

    Again, sounds like William has general time management issues and he’s not planning his mornings properly – I get that.

    Reply ↓
  46. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

    OP#3 if you think you ever might want to go back later for the MBA (which a lot of employers will pay for) then it is worth holding out for regionally accredited. But yes, look into what options the state colleges will give you for degree completion. They will tend to be more flexible and generous than the online catalog might seem.

    Reply ↓
  47. ADD*

    LW 3, there have already been some really good other comments about degree-completion options, but as someone working in higher education, there’s one caveat I want to mention regarding nationally accredited schools: if you have any plans to someday pursue further degrees down the road, whether in grad school or even just a second bachelor’s degree, you may find yourself in a bad situation if you get your first degree from one of these schools with national accreditation. My own school (a public state institution) does not accept credits or degrees from nationally accredited institutions, and we unfortunately sometimes see students who’ve put a lot of time, effort, and money into classes at such a school only to find out that nothing they’ve done is transferable, that they are not considered to have a bachelors degree for purposes of transfer, and are ineligible to move on to the graduate program they were interested in.

    It’s unfortunate that the system is set up the way it is, and that higher education is so inaccessible to so many, and that’s what makes these other types of institutions so attractive – it seems to offer an option that allows access to those who otherwise might not be able to obtain it – but it also means that there are quite a lot of these institutions out there run by folks who recognize that desperation and are taking advantage of it without providing a real value to the student, leaving them with a piece of paper that won’t be recognized by some employers or other institutions of learning. It’s worth being cautious here.

    Reply ↓
  48. marymoocow*

    LW3: I can’t speak for hiring managers but I work in higher ed admissions. Accreditation is so important to everything we do. If you take classes at a nationally accredited institution and want to transfer to a traditional institution (ex. if you don’t finish your degree, or if a different college or program just speaks to you in the future!) your coursework likely won’t transfer and you’d need to take those courses again at a regionally accredited institution. Or you’d only be able to stick with for-profits and nationally accredited institutions later on.

    I have always worked in major state universities, the ones called University of StateName, and I saw many applicants from for-profit and nationally accredited institutions who thought those schools were a stepping stone to a 4-year degree but unfortunately lost time and money when their coursework wouldn’t transfer. Figure out the reasons why you want this degree from that program. If it’s to check a box, fine. But in my experience these programs harm more than help (my experience in admissions for state universities — which probably isn’t your experience so you have to weigh that against your circumstances and comfort with risk.)

    Reply ↓
  49. Mgguy*

    To add a bit too-the distinction between “regional” and “national” accreditation has been a bit muddier in the last few years, and as I understand the US DOE has put some rules in place that break the regional “monopolies” that have traditionally been present.

    As a prime example, the school where I am currently employed as a full time faculty member is accredited by the Higher Learning Commission(HLC). The HLC IS our regional accrediting body, and you’ll find plenty of top-10 schools in various categories(or even just the top 10 or top 25 overall list) like Illinois Urbana-Champaign, Northwestern University, and University of Chicago. My school isn’t in the same category as those-we’re a community college in the middle of nowhere-but I mention that just to say that HLC is by any measure a legitimate and respected accreditation.

    With that said, the HLC has also expanded quite a bit, and now accredits schools outside their historic area. Some consider them a national accrediting body, but their accreditation definitely is as rigorous and trustworthy as any of the other regional accrediting bodies.

    I hadn’t heard of University of the People before this, but like some other posters here I love the concept and it seems like their education is solid.

    Reply ↓
  50. betty*

    Regarding OP #1 – I have two employees that are of the “lazy/unaware” nature that were working here when I came on board as their manager. They both come in late, refuse to help out and basically do nothing during their entire shift. Unfortunately, MY boss protects them and will not allow me to do anything about their poor performance. I have asked if they can be transferred to another department where they can still work, but the job tasks aren’t as demanding. I have been told no AND to make sure that I have double coverage on the days that those two work, to make up for their lack of performance.

    It is frustrating to the co-workers who have to do all the work, while they sit around and play on their phone or read a book. The other employees have come to me to complain about their underperforming coworkers and I have told them the truth – that I can’t do anything about them due to MY boss. The good part is that they all know “My boss” and understand completely, even though they don’t like it.

    I just wanted to post this because it looks like I am a crappy boss, but I’m not. I have no support from those above me…

    Reply ↓
    1. Ellis Bell*

      Do you have any sense of why your boss is protecting them? It’s fascinating since your boss doesn’t even need to do anything since you’re willing to.

      Reply ↓
    2. Lenora Rose*

      Wow.

      Have you tried to coach them at all? Told them they cannot keep coming in late? (I’m assuming the answer is “yes” and they do the “improve for a few days then backslide”). Have you documented the issues?

      Your own boss stinks, but is there really nothing you can do to hold them accountable besides ask to transfer them?

      Reply ↓
    3. Observer*

      I just wanted to post this because it looks like I am a crappy boss,

      Well, there is a key difference between you and the LW’s boss. You are doing what you can about the situation, and your staff knows it. AND – very important! – you are not scolding the whole group for the misbehavior of these two.

      Reply ↓
  51. SusieQQ*

    I may be reading or interpreting it incorrectly, but I’m getting pot-stirring vibes from LW2. I don’t actually think Carol did anything wrong here, and LW2 should have asked if it was public info, i.e. did John make a group announcement? If not, LW2 could just say that for the very reasons John would later say, they don’t automatically “do things” for employees based on the rumor mill or information that was shared privately/individually.

    I think it was unnecessary for LW2 to tell John that she heard it from Carol. That doesn’t really serve a purpose other than to create drama between the two of them. From the way I read the letter, it’s not like Carol was gossiping about it. I don’t think it’s weird to hear something like that and ask the office admin if anything’s been done.

    Reply ↓
  52. Pay no attention...*

    #5 So my reading is that the LW is WFH and they want her to cover the incoming phone calls but it doesn’t sound like they need her in the office. They’re calling it reception but sounds more like an operator or dispatcher. The part that I’m really unclear on are regular work hours… is the 24/7 because the company is open those hours and she will be taking customer calls, or because the manager might call after hours to arrange coverage for the next business day. Either way, it honestly sounds like the LW just doesn’t want her employer calling her on the phone any time, and that’s not 100% reasonable.

    For the California thing… I’m in California, and I think the law isn’t 100% on the LW’s side on this… my employer does not provide any phones and were I to use my personal cell phone for work — my actual work, not just my manager or HR contacting me about, for instance, a power outage at work and not to come in — I would receive a $10 stipend per month to cover what they would consider to be a portion of my phone bill and reasonable wear-and-tear for the extra use. If the LW is already receiving an extra WFH stipend to cover what I assume to be expenses incurred — electricity, internet, phone — I don’t think the company is doing anything illegal in California.

    Reply ↓
    1. BattleRoyale*

      Actually, it’s entirely about being on-site but they want to be sure to be able to, for example, wake me so I can switch a WFH day to an on-site day. That was the original story. It has since expanded to they “expect to” be able to reach me 24/7

      Reply ↓
      1. Pay no attention...*

        So 24/7 is totally unreasonable, but a manager being able to reach you outside of business hours to set your schedule ahead of time IME likely wouldn’t require they provide you with a phone to do so (legally), unless you would using that phone to do your job… take customer calls or dispatch work to other employees/vendors etc. That wouldn’t really be the employer providing you with the resources to do your job and you are sort of the one insisting that they provide you with a phone rather than call you on your own. They could very quickly decide that they will just simply revoke your WFH and then you are always available to cover reception without them having to call you in. Wouldn’t you rather have advanced notice, or are you thinking that if they can’t get ahold of you, you won’t be obligated to change your schedule?

        Reply ↓
  53. LW1*

    Hey all, LW1 here! Thank you for all of your comments, I read all of them and realize that I wrote my letter rather quickly and you all had some valid points on what I didn’t address. Here are some further notes:

    -We start the day out evenly splitting the workload so that none of us are stretched too thin. So it does start out as an even division of work.

    -William’s lateness/long breaks/chatting/phone use do affect all of us because a lot of our tasks are time-sensitive, meaning that if he is late in the morning (or can’t be found during the day), one of us will often have to dash out at the last second to cover his task on top of our own, leading to more work for the rest of us. We also frequently find mistakes in William’s work later that we then have to take time away from our work to fix.

    -It is not just me noticing these things. Other coworkers (and even others in our department who don’t work directly with William) notice them and bring them to Thomas’s attention (or to my attention to pass on to Thomas).

    -Thomas himself has noticed a lot of the behaviors I mentioned, and when I have tracked William’s long breaks/phone time/etc., it was done at his request. I did not spend an inordinate amount of time on it, nor did I continue to do it after the time period Thomas and I had agreed on; just some discreet glances at the clock and a quick summary sent to Thomas at the end of the work day – maybe 5-10min a day total.

    Thanks all for your feedback so far! Have a great day!

    Reply ↓
    1. Hroethvitnir*

      I’m sorry you’ve had so many worst interpretation takes on here. I think your letter pretty clearly outlined a problematic/impactful pattern here.

      I wouldn’t expect anything to change given how your boss has dealt with it thus far. Good luck.

      Reply ↓
    2. New Jack Karyn*

      Ooh, yeah, all of this makes the conversation very different.

      It seems like a fine line to walk when writing in, how much information to include, what to leave out. What’s necessary for context, what’s beside the point. Thank you for dropping in to clear this up!

      Reply ↓
  54. Bopper*

    Degree:
    In NJ, Thomas Edison State College is generous in accepting credits from other institutions…see if you could complete your degree through them.

    Reply ↓
  55. Bruce*

    For LW4, I work for a company that has restrictions on who can talk to who about which project, but this is all by formal procedure as part of protecting “intellectual property”. I agree with Allison that in this case just not mention these meetings to the client!

    Reply ↓

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