open thread – October 25, 2024

by Alison Green on October 25, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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{ 605 comments }

{ 605 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Blue Pen*

    I’m curious if anyone here has recognized (or strongly suspected) themselves as the talked-about co-worker in any AaM post!

    I think anonymity is pretty solid here (in both posts and the comments section), but there are some situations described here that are so hyper-specific, I don’t see how more than one person could share the same story.

    Although I don’t think I have been written about, there have been times when reading the comments that make me wonder if others here work at the same employer I do.

    Reply ↓
    1. juliebulie*

      Same here. My employer has 165000 employees worldwide, so it’s possible that some of them have complained about me!

      Just yesterday someone speculated on a letter-writer’s industry and I thought we weren’t supposed to do that.

      Reply ↓
        1. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

          I remember this post! Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

          Now with FT and hybrid work schedules post-pandemic, people are using their work calendars to block off their at-home workouts.

          Reply ↓
          1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

            Right? I have a music lesson one day each week and therapy a different day. But they are in my calendars as “Appointment.”

            Reply ↓
    3. Mom of Two Littles*

      There have been so many times that I have wanted to write in about something but I was afraid that the person I would write in about would be a reader and see it. And the situations required a bit of specificity that “llama Groomer” would remove the context needed for accurate advice lol.

      Reply ↓
    4. Sassy SAAS*

      There was a post a few years ago that I could have SWORN was from my coworker. We were working for a toxic boss of a very small business. After we had both left the job, I asked if she had ever written in. Turns out, she hadn’t, but she was a daily reader like I am!

      Reply ↓
    5. Pretty as a Princess*

      I did read a post once that I was CONVINCED was written about a coworker. Who richly, richly deserved to be written about the way they were described.

      There were just a couple small details that the LW used that made it so that I knew it was not about this person. But I actually asked several trusted colleagues to read the post and they all said the same thing. (I read through all the comments on that one, since I figured they would be useful to me, too!)

      Reply ↓
    6. DEJ*

      Alison has said it has happened a couple of times – read ‘my coworker thinks I’m being abused – I’m actually into BDSM’ from Nov. 7, 2017 and the update.

      Reply ↓
    8. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      I can’t remember the specifics, but there was a situation a friend wrote about here once, and I remembered thinking it sounded like her voice. A day or so later she responded to a group chat we were in together that she had written into AAM and, in fact, the post was hers!

      Reply ↓
    9. profe*

      Not exactly, but I read a novel earlier this year (Rabbit Hutch by Tess Gunty, excellent) where I highly suspected the author was an AAM reader. One of the characters has a comically dreary office job and a few quirky coworker details reminded me strongly of certain letters. Now I can’t think what it was specifically though :(

      Reply ↓
    10. Roland*

      I think a coworker of mine wrote in about their boss and team, but it shared some personal stuff so I never asked them about it so they wouldn’t feel awkward.

      Reply ↓
  2. PercyJax*

    I’m wondering how to reflect a title change on my resume that is just “administrative”, rather than because of a change in jobs.

    I’ve been in my role for about a year now with the title Director, Llama Grooming. This is an individual contributor role. I just learned that my company is adjusting titles to reflect individual contributor versus people management roles, so soon I’ll be Principal, Llama Grooming. My role is not changing at all, and this role is at the same level as a Director in the management track.

    On my resume, how should I reflect this? Should I say that there was a title change from Director to Principal after a year? This is technically true, but I’m worried that will make it look like a demotion. Would it make more sense to list my title as always having been Principal, since the role itself remains the same? Any advice you have would be very appreciated!

    Reply ↓
    1. UnCivilServant*

      I’d put the individual contributer title on the resume, since it more closely reflects your duties. I don’t think anyone checking references will hear “PercyJax started as a Director but changed titles…” since it would not stick out given it’s a company wide realignment.

      If you had been demoted, that would be recalled.

      Reply ↓
      1. PercyJax*

        Thanks! Just to clarify: Do you mean just list my job as always having been Principal, Llama Grooming with no comment about my previous title?

        Reply ↓
          1. UnCivilServant*

            To clarify – you did not change jobs, and anyone calling will ask if you were a “Principal, Llama Grooming”, and get a yes. Don’t introduce confusion by referencing a change in nomenclature that has no material difference when you are putting yourself out there for a new job.

            Reply ↓
    2. Juanita*

      Agreed with others to just list the “Principal” title as having been your title from the start.

      (For what it’s worth, “Principal” in my field is more senior than “Director,” so even if it seems like a demotion to you, it may not to others! But no need to introduce confusion, fine to just list “Principal.”)

      Reply ↓
      1. PercyJax*

        Thanks, that’s helpful! Maybe it feels like a demotion since it’s a title I had never encountered before, so it feels like it has less gravitas and is a bit meaningless. But it’s good to know that that might just be a “me” thing.

        Reply ↓
    3. Smithy*

      Speaking as another Director with no management responsibilities, I would just change the title to Principal on your resume and make no note of the change.

      Having had the Director title now for about 4 years, I regularly meet people externally who think I manage a team. Depending on the context sometimes I’ll explain, sometimes I won’t – but in an odd way, having to articulate that you’re a Director with no direct reports can already be a bit of a lowering of expectations when someone hears that. So just having Principal in the title can set the bar as a senior individual contributor on a resume.

      I will say that earlier in my career, after working for about 3 years with the title of Officer, they did a whole title adjustment and eliminated the Officer title and changed everyone to an Associate. At that time, I was already actively looking to leave and felt that title change would negatively impact my search.

      Reply ↓
      1. PercyJax*

        Thanks, appreciate you’re input! And you’re right, I don’t want people to think I have experience in people management when that’s not the case, so this is ultimately a helpful change.

        Reply ↓
    4. learnedthehardway*

      That’s a good title change – “Principal” is ambiguous enough that it looks senior, but in an unspecified way.

      You could just go with it and do “Principal 2024 – Present” and immediately under put “Director 2022-2024), then have the same blurb for accomplishments and duties. Or you could just go with “Principal 2022 – Present”. Either would be fine.

      People will not be sure if you were promoted or not, but you can make that clear when you talk. People will not automatically assume that you were demoted, though.

      Reply ↓
      1. Anax*

        Honestly, “principal” seems pretty well-defined, at least in places I’ve worked and applied! (IT, academic research, and utility companies.)

        It usually means someone with a minimum of 8-10 years of experience, who will probably be the most senior member of their team. They may not be a formal manager, but will probably lead projects often, be considered a subject-matter expert, and be responsible for design and strategy on major projects (say, 1-3 years long).

        If that definition holds true, I would absolutely use “Principal” over “Director” – a principal by definition has substantial subject-matter expertise, whereas a director may be purely a people-manager with very little subject-matter expertise.

        Reply ↓
    5. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think the only time to note it would be if you’re applying for a new job and one of your references only knew you as Director, Llama Grooming. You don’t have to put that on your resume, but you could make it clear that when you worked with that person, your job title was Director even though functionally it’s the same job you’re doing now. And then let your reference know too so that they’re in the loop.

      Reply ↓
    6. Momma Bear*

      I agree. I think if it’s just administrative it would be valid to just change all of it to Principal and use the full dates you have been employed in that role. You can clarify what Principal means to your org in the cover letter or interview.

      Reply ↓
    7. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Keep the most recent title since your job has not actually changed. If you leave and someone contacts the company they are going to only use your actual title, not what it may have been before. This was what we were instructed to do when we wet through a title change.

      Reply ↓
    8. Procedure Publisher*

      I’ve experience with job title changes. I had at least three unique job titles during my nine years in one position. The last job title change had three different variations. The variations was all about how to reflect the level and all the skills used. Because of all of these changes, I went with the job title that best reflect what I did.

      I do wish that I had kept better track of all the changes of my job title because one time the job title change did result in another duty added to my plate.

      Reply ↓
    9. Inigo Montoya*

      You could do a “/” title for the whole work period. Use any of the following:
      Principal Llama Groomer / Director Llama Grooming.
      Principal Llama Groomer (Director of Llama Grooming)
      Director of Llama Grooming (Principal Llama Groomer).
      I have seen that done in these situations.

      Reply ↓
    10. Seeking Second Childhood*

      My only addition is it really depends on how your company lists&verifies employment. If they call out title changes, then mention it somehow.

      Reply ↓
  3. waitwhat*

    Can anyone help me make sense of this situation?

    I applied for a job that I’m fully qualified for and have direct experience in. It’s essentially the same job I have now in the same department at a competing organization. After hearing nothing for two months, I received an email this week that read: “We must regretfully inform you that the interview committee has decided to re-post the position, therefore, your candidacy has not been retained.”

    Wait, what?? The rolodex in my mind hasn’t stopped spinning since I got that email. It would be one thing if they rejected me because they received plenty of qualified applications, but that obviously isn’t the case since they’re re-posting the position. And yet they prefer to start from scratch instead of giving me a 15-minute screening call… Do they think I’m too qualified? Is there a typo in my cover letter? Is my resume too long? Do they think I’m a job hopper? I mean, what the hell?

    Reply ↓
    1. Em from CT*

      It probably isn’t about you at all! My guess is that they did some initial screenings or interviews and realized they needed a different skill set than the one they’d originally asked for, so decided to update the job description and repost.

      Reply ↓
      1. M2*

        This or there’s a new manager.

        I started a new role and they had jobs posted but I wanted to see what I needed and ended up taking one down and putting up later with a different skill set.

        I have also reposted before for other reasons. If you’re still interested I would revamp your resume and cover letter and send it in. I wouldn’t necessarily send in the same ones so just revamp a couple things and apply and see what happens. But make sure they didn’t change the requirements and you meet them. Good luck!

        Reply ↓
      1. Someone Online*

        I just did that last month. We had one person apply who met the qualifications and I just didn’t feel comfortable moving forward like that. I hope that person applies again because I would be interested in interviewing them – but I don’t want to just interview them.

        Reply ↓
        1. Trout 'Waver*

          Why? You’re disqualifying them because everyone else sucks? That’s bonkers!

          One qualified candidate is better than zero.

          Reply ↓
          1. Charley*

            My old employer had a policy that we couldn’t move forward to offers until we’d interviewed at least 3 candidates. I’m not saying I agree with that policy, just saying that I’ve been in a situation where we couldn’t just move forward with our one decent applicant

            Reply ↓
            1. Cordelia*

              yes I was that applicant for my current job. I was the only qualified person who applied, Large Public Employer told the hiring managers that they had to repost to get a more diverse candidate pool.
              I got an email from HR though, explaining that the job was being reposted for the above reason, but that my application was still under consideration and I did not need to reapply. No-one else suitable applied this time either – its a very niche, specialist field – and so I was interviewed and got the job

              Reply ↓
          3. Someone Online*

            Because you truly can’t tell if that person is the best choice or just the person in front of you. Are you willing to overlook potential red (or yellow or orange) flags because well, there was only one candidate?

            Reply ↓
    3. Angstrom*

      They may have updated the job description or requrements, and decided to restart the application process with a new candidate pool.

      Reply ↓
      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        That was my thought. I’d wait for the new posting, see if it does indeed reflect a job you want and are qualified for, and if it does, apply again. Worst they can do is say no.

        Reply ↓
    4. UnCivilServant*

      My first guess would be an administrative issue inside the company, not a reflection on candidates.

      I’ve had to repost before because some budgetary nonsense, or similar items unrelated to the candidates. Send in a new application.

      Reply ↓
      1. perspex*

        Yes, I’ve seen this too. Sometimes administrative issues related to the hiring manager or department, sometimes related to HR, sometimes to the organization as a whole.

        Reply ↓
    5. spcepickle*

      I would also guess this has nothing to do with you. Where I work we have a very formal hiring process (State government ALL the rules). If you wait to long to go after candidates they make us restart the whole process, if there is a typo any where in the job posting, if you started reviewing candidates and then it turns out someone did not take the right class to be allowed to see the candidates – start over. If there is a slight change in who will manage the person we start over. It is an annoying process that everyone on all sides is frustrated with.

      If you are still interested I would suggest reapplying, and keeping an eye open for other red flags.

      Reply ↓
    6. CindyLouWho*

      The passive voice in their response really bothers me because it makes their email to you useless. Would it have been so hard to put more specific information in the email?

      Reply ↓
        1. Arrietty*

          But someone had to write it, and they chose to use vague, confusing language.

          They could have written “The interview committee has decided to repost the job with some amendments. If you are interested in the new role linked here, please apply again”.

          Reply ↓
    7. this-is-fine.jpeg*

      This is indeed very weird but notably it does NOT say whether or not you were considered for the role. I assume it’s for weird internal reasons. I would keep an eye out, double check the job description once it’s reposted and re-apply! No harm in doing that.

      Reply ↓
    8. learnedthehardway*

      Perhaps they didn’t get to the role for 2 months, and then decided to repost because they figured everyone had moved on. If you’re interested, you could reapply.

      Reply ↓
    9. LawyerMom*

      I’ve had to repost jobs because we inadvertently used the wrong category of job code in the original posting. It’s not something the candidate would have ever seen, but the job code links the posting to the actual open role in the org structure (which the person gets hired into). It was easier to pull and repost (with the correct job code) than to try to fix all of that on the backend of the system.

      In that case I told candidates that we were interested in what was going on, apologized for the inconvenience and confusion, and asked them to reapply/resubmit to the new posting.

      Another similar tale: sometimes an opening is only “active” for so long…and if you didn’t post/fill it in time, you may need to repost. Or there is a new hiring manager and it needs to be assigned to their workflow. Etc., etc.

      In this case, the wording of the email is admittedly odd, but I would take it as a notice that they want you to know that the posting is being pulled and reposted–and that you should check it out and apply if still interested.

      Reply ↓
    10. Katie*

      My thinking is that they had very specific needs. I am in payroll accounting and when I hire I need someone with accounting experience and I really don’t care about payroll. The last time I hired the recruiter hyper focused on the payroll piece though I was adamant with him that I didn’t care about it. Then did give me people with accounting experience!

      I ended up recruiting and finding my own candidate.

      Reply ↓
    11. Ama*

      I have told this story before, but I was once in a department hiring a new director and the hiring committee (academia) couldn’t figure out why the candidates HR was forwarding after their initial screen were so unaligned with what they were looking for. Then someone on the committee asked an acquaintance they knew had exactly the experience they wanted to apply and HR didn’t forward them. Turned out HR had written the preferred criteria down backwards, so they were screening *out* candidates they should have been screening *for. *. We had to start all over again because HR’s system apparently didn’t have a way to reverse a decision to eliminate a candidate from consideration.

      Ever since that process it’s been easier to remind myself that so much can screw up a hiring process that has very little to do with the actual applicants.

      Reply ↓
    12. Wilbur*

      My company has a policy that you need X number of qualified candidates for a posting to proceed to interviews. Sometimes they extend the time the position is open, and sometimes they update the requirements and repost. I’d check the new listing, see if you need to tweak your resume/application, and re-apply. They very clearly did not reject you.

      Reply ↓
    13. Mom of Two Littles*

      When I was in college I had a student job that also had FT salaried people that worked in the on-campus department. They were having a terrible time trying to fill a FT role. There was a regulation for their hiring that they had to make a case for each applicant that was not selected, “We cannot hire Applicant A because x, y, z” and put it in the file.
      So, when their top choice accepted, and they filled out all the paperwork for why the others were ineligible, they had to completely restart the search after the person backed out last minute. I don’t know the details of it, but the way it was explained to me was they legally could not hire any of the people from the first round.

      Reply ↓
      1. Retired now*

        I think it’s odd that someone would be so aggravated that they weren’t interviewed for a job they were qualified for. There could be any number of reasons why they didn’t interview you. I would either reapply or not, but they don’t owe you an interview

        Reply ↓
      2. anonymous anteater*

        It sounds like we have very similar documentation requirements, and this could happen if you misunderstand how the justifications need to be worded, especially the nonselection statements.

        If I want to hire candidate A, but B and C could be back ups, and I don’t want to hire D, I have to document like this:
        A was interviewed on [date] by colleagues so and so. They showed strong expertise in skill x and y, and some experience in z. They are available to start on [date]. They all minimum qualifications and more desired qualifications than the other candidates.
        B showed strong expertise in skill x and y. They meet minimum qualifications but showed less experience in z than candidate A.
        C showed strong expertise in skill x and y, and some experience in z. They could perform the job, but they are not available to start before [date]. It would be preferable to have the incumbent start earlier.
        D did not show the required skills in x, y and z.

        Reply ↓
      3. Arrietty*

        “Legally” seems unlikely, unless the organisation had its own legal system like some universities do. Sounds like a bad policy with unintended consequences.

        Reply ↓
    14. JJ*

      That’s an odd email because it doesn’t specifically say really much at all. If they were like, “We apologize for the inconvenience, but the interview committee has decided to re-post the position and your candidacy has not been retained. If you’d like to continue to be considered, please apply to the new posting.” That would actually give you useful insight into the situation and what to do. I feel like if they had no interest, you’d have been outright rejected, but who knows.

      It could be an evergreen posting. They could have also tweaked the role perhaps and decided they needed to repost it instead of just using the existing pool of applicants?

      Applying for the jobs where the description reads like your resume is the worst.

      Reply ↓
    15. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      If we repost for any reason it is a “new posting” and all the applications are stuck with the old posting. It really sounds to me that they are suggesting you reapply under the new posting. We are not able to hire someone for the new job who applied only for the old one even if the job is EXACTLY the same or the onboarding doesn’t work.

      I am in an awkward time period right now where I can’t hire for a role that I need to hire for again in a February. I could close the job and reopen it in January (so much work) and tell the people who have applied after I filled my fall spots to please apply again, or I could keep the posting open even though I can’t hire right now and have people continue to apply and have to tell them I am not interviewing until February (so much work) . There is no right answer

      Reply ↓
    16. Seeking Second Childhood*

      We had a situation with a corporate-imposed hiring freeze–and some of the job reqs that they canceled were roles we were contractually required to keep filled. Some scrambling ensued to restart the hiring process for those.

      Or there was an IT screwup of epic proportions.

      Reply ↓
  4. TeenieBopper*

    I’m super annoyed at my company right now. I was hired a year and a half ago to be a senior data analyst. They had none of the infrastructure in place for me to do my job, nor did anyone have much of an idea of what they wanted me to do other than “We’ve got access to lots of data, we can leverage it!” Except they couldn’t; they’re a third party in medicine. Good luck. I worked on internal projects that brought them lots of value by building out their internal reporting from manually creating excel pivot tables to auto refreshing dashboards with multiple data sources, but they eventually half laid me off. I was brought back full time a few months later.

    Since week two, I’ve been saying that I can’t do what they want me to do without access to their partner org’s systems. “We’re working on it.” Now it’s, “You can’t have access to their system unless you’re an employee.” I’ve been saying this entire time, make me an employee with a dual appointment. They say they finally have an agreement where I’ll be an employee for the partner org, but my salary paid by my current company. I’m send a job description of the new role, it’s essentially a help desk position. It’s a step backwards in my career in both title and duties. The absolute max of the pay band is less than 90% of my current salary. I’ve been told I’ll be made whole, but I’m skeptical.

    it’s just so frustrating because there’s an opportunity to bring value to my current company, to bring value to this partner company, and to leverage data that would lead to better patient outcomes, but they can’t seem to get out of their own way. And I might be taking a pay cut for a job I won’t even like, or even worse, out of a job entirely.

    No question, I guess, unless someone has an in for data analysis/light data engineering/business intelligence in the non-profit space. Hoping to stay there for three more years for PSLF.

    Reply ↓
    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Are you in academia/academia adjacent? If you are, it’s pretty easy to get shuffled into projects by showing interest. So you could take the crappy IT desk job and still have a shot at doing data analysis. Meeting faculty with projects needing your expertise in the IT role would be doable.

      But I’d be really sour on a company that has laid me off then changed my duties repeatedly. For PSLF does it have to be the exact same institution for 3 years or just any non profit?

      Reply ↓
      1. TeenieBopper*

        Yeah, I’m kind of angry at myself because I should have been using the last 6-9 months to be a) more actively searching or b) working on side projects that develop new and current skills. But l was complacent.

        It doesn’t have to be this specific job, it can be any non profit. The partner org is also a non profit so I’d consider giving them a few month on ramp to recognize my skill set but it can’t be long term. Three years is just too long for my skills to atrophy.

        Reply ↓
        1. DisneyChannelThis*

          I would be 100% mentally checked out and job hunting then! PSLF the only thing worth staying for, and there’s plenty of nonprofits out there.

          Reply ↓
          1. TeenieBopper*

            This is true, but non profits who will be able to pay me enough for me to pay my mortgage is a different story. I’m in a weird position where PSLF is worth so much to me (think multiple tens of thousands of dollars a year for the next three years) that most for profit companies would have difficulty matching a non profit + PSLF salary.

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    2. FashionablyEvil*

      I would start looking for a new job–check out non-profit research organizations, public health organizations, and non-profit health advocacy groups. If you can actually get to this data and do the work, that’s a high demand skill set.

      Reply ↓
    3. DataWonk*

      I’ve been in your shoes, and unfortunately my only answer is ‘it’s not going to get better’. Don’t bother staying for years. You’ll only be shooting yourself in the foot.

      Look for a place with a manager that has added value themselves and knows exactly what they want you to do. Analytics is all about infrastructure; the mantra for our field is garbage in, garbage out.

      Unless you can talk to someone higher up that can get you access (with your solid plan of how you can bring value) then you’re just going to be working in excel your whole career, sorry to say.

      Reply ↓
    4. DataIsAnAndroid*

      I have had similar struggles with getting my company to pay for the data we need to accomplish our desired projects. They keep expecting customers to give us rights to develop on the data which has never come to fruition. This data is a commodity! We’re a for-profit company! There’s so much underestimation of the value of data and the governance involved.

      Reply ↓
  5. bamcheeks*

    Had a job interview today: wore my lovely expensive jacket from 2013 for probably the first time since the pandemic. It has gone from “neat” to “shrunken” and now it is firmly in “too small”, and that very fitted l, cropped style also screams Alicia Florrick these days a

    If I get the job, I will need to shift up to Business (from my usually business cazj) a couple of times a month, so it’s probably worth buying a new jacket or blazer. What are current good shapes for such things?

    Reply ↓
    1. Em from CT*

      Not sure if you’re looking for a masculine or feminine shape, but I’ve had good luck with MM La Fleur’s clothing (I skew more to the feminine end of the spectrum, with a pretty curvy shape). They’re expensive, but they do have good sales periodically!

      Reply ↓
    2. Ann O'Nemity*

      Relaxed fit is very popular right now. Big, boxy fit. Looks great with wide trousers.

      You can also find hourglass silhouettes. They still have have roomy shoulders and hips like relaxed fit, but it tapers at the waist. (This is my current fave right now, as relaxed fit makes me look heavier.)

      I’ve also seen a lot of cropped blazers for sale, but I don’t actually see many women wearing them where I’m at.

      Reply ↓
      2. Joielle*

        Agreed, it’s all about the oversized blazer and wide leg trousers right now! My go-to right now is The Drop Blake blazer from Amazon. The plaid one is nice for fall.

        Reply ↓
        1. lap*

          I’ve found some nice blazers from Uniqlo (quality varies; cotton/cord and linen have been solid, longer/oversized options) and J. Crew deep sale days (some classic cut, wool/tweed versions)

          Reply ↓
      3. white oleander*

        Yes, I went shopping for a new blazer last year, and I was like, whoa, the 80s are BACK! I went 80s Diane Keaton for style inspo, but there is no way I am bringing shoulder pads.

        Reply ↓
    4. Beth*

      The current trend is towards a relaxed fit–wider trousers, longer and more boxy jackets, overall a looser and less tailored fit than was trendy in 2013. (I personally love it–so much more comfortable than tightly fitted tailoring!) I’d either lean into that or go for a classic cut that transcends trends, depending on which you prefer on your body type.

      Reply ↓
    6. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      Not quite the answer to your question, but I did a Wantable subscription for a couple years to upgrade my work wardrobe and was really impressed with the quality and variety. Got a few great jackets from them, too!

      Reply ↓
    7. CommanderBanana*

      Oversized seems to be the prevailing trend now (although with how skintight everything was before, ‘oversized’ just reads as ‘comfortable’ to me).
      Quince has classic pieces at good price points – their wool blazers are about $100.

      Reply ↓
    8. Ellis Bell*

      Aren’t you in the UK? I got a total steal on a black blazer at Asda; I usually drop a lot of money on blazers because I think they’re a key item, but I happened across it and couldn’t argue with the fabric and the draping shape (without being shlubby). It has actual pockets instead of the bullshit ones. They’ve got a style with full length sleeves, but I got the style with buttoned back three quarter sleeves (short arms!). Google George + Black Ponte Roll Sleeve Blazer, it’s been further reduced to like £16 by now.

      Reply ↓
  6. Green Goose*

    I have to give peer feedback to my coworker, but I don’t have any constructive criticism for her that I would put in our feedback file. We have a pretty terrible boss, who is not going anywhere, so I could see the boss trying to use any negative thing as a way to not give us a full raise. How have others dealt with this type of situation, where you are required to write in a way the person can improve but you don’t trust person(s) who will be reading the review.

    Reply ↓
    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Choose stuff she’s already addressed. Then it becomes a strength for her – Oh yes I see Goose said it would be good if I was stronger at XYZ, i had noticed that already and here’s what I did that now makes me stronger in XYZ…

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    2. FashionablyEvil*

      I find the framing of, “Here’s what I appreciate about colleague and here’s one thing she could do to be even more effective in her role” to work well for this. Something like, “Susan is great at dealing with challenging customers. I think she could excel even more with better access to a structured knowledge base.”

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    3. Zombeyonce*

      It seems likely that they’ll twist what you or others say (or just make something up) to avoid giving the person a full raise no matter what. If I were you, I’d talk to the person and tell them your conundrum, and maybe they can come up with something they want to work on you can use. That way they’re forewarned and won’t take anything personally. It’ll also make it interesting to see how their own feedback gets twisted back in their direction.

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  7. The Ick*

    I realize this phrasing is extremely online, but since it perfectly captures my gut feeling, so be it. Has anyone gotten “the ick” for a job?

    I don’t mean you’re tired or overwhelmed or burned out. I mean something happened that viscerally disgusted you and permanently changed your vibe towards the company. If so, how did you handle it?

    (I’m intentionally not sharing the incident itself, because it’s extremely specific and would hijack/distract from the overall topic.)

    Reply ↓
    1. PropJoe*

      I once got a slow roll demotion, from Llama Security Administrator to Llama Support Technician. Didn’t cut my pay but started taking away the security admin duties I enjoyed and replacing them with support technician ones that I resented getting stuck with again.

      That took me from “I’m happy to continue working here indefinitely” to “I want to get out of here and may not even wait until I have another job lined up before I quit.”

      There is a salary for which I’d be willing to work there again, but I doubt they’d be willing to pay me $10 million per year.

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      1. Cookies for Breakfast*

        I was in a similar situation, though a) I was definitely burning out and b) I was already job searching.

        Long story short: my not very competent boss Barry got fired and I was given a promotion by my grandboss Garry, who wanted to retain me (MANY processes would have imploded if I’d left). Barry’s replacement, Larry, started right about that time. Within a few weeks, he told me my new job title meant nothing to him, refused to support me with setting goals, and made one of my peers my manager because he felt he had “too many direct reports”. In the time before I left, I realised there was no wonder Garry hired Barry first and Larry next: they were the exact same type of white man who exudes bravado, loves the sound of his own voice, and has a track record in talking very loudly to cover the sound of his shortcomings. This at a company that prided itself on prizing diversity and opportunities for everyone.

        Larry didn’t last long. He always walked on thin ice, constantly talking up alleged fantastic achievements of our department to gain the higher-ups’ favour, instead of addressing the organisational issues that kept everyone from achieving anything. The peer that became my manager, who inherited all my workload when I left, was out the door not two months later. I heard through the grapevine that a workplace affair hastened Larry’s demise with less than a year of tenure (did I mention he was married with kids?). And of course, he now works at a company that is a fairly big name in its industry *sigh*

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    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      Honestly, if something about the whole company affects you that strongly, it sounds like you are no longer at the right company and it’s time to start looking for new opportunities–unless it’s something that’s within your power to change, or to at least try to change, and you have the bandwidth to do that work.

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    3. Zombeyonce*

      Definitely. My company did a lot of layoffs and some departments close to mine got rid of some very effective and helpful people instead of the higher ups that didn’t like when those people brought concerns or improvements to them. One boss in particular is all toxic positivity and hates when anyone says anything that could be construed as negative, even when it’s to suggest ways to make things better. It’s been really demoralizing, especially when that boss then complains that things “aren’t getting done fast enough anymore.” Of course they aren’t, you laid off the people that actually did the work to keep around the yes-men that don’t actually do a good job! It’s been really frustrating trying to work around the fallout and I cringe whenever I see these bosses in meetings.

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    4. Elevator Elevator*

      I did, but in my situation that moment was part of a much larger issue that rapidly escalated, so even if I hadn’t gotten the ick in that moment, things would have deteriorated no matter what.

      Basically, a coworker I had trained was criticized for not catching an error when reviewing a vendor’s work. She couldn’t figure out what she’d done wrong and asked me to look it over. At first I couldn’t identify the issue either, but I eventually caught it via an alternate method.

      To me, the issue was clearly a process one – the procedures we had in place to check this vendor’s work weren’t sufficient, and going forward we needed to make sure we were using that second method. I brought this to my boss’s attention, wanting to make it clear that this wasn’t the result of carelessness on my coworker’s part and that anyone who’d been trained the way I trained her (which was also the way I was trained) would have gotten the same results.

      My boss was so set on lecturing my coworker for sloppiness that it was like he didn’t hear a word I said – we were both subjected to a condescending speech about the importance of checking for these errors. (For what it’s worth, the overlooked error was in our favor.) What I said typically carried a lot of weight and I was deeply annoyed about being disregarded like that, as well as having a legitimate procedural issue ignored in favor of pointing the finger at someone who didn’t deserve it.

      At the time, my plan was to handle it by going full malicious compliance the next time we needed to look over this vendor’s work and handing my boss a mountain of false positives to review.

      In practice, the attitude toward my coworker was part of a much larger issue that she ultimately quit over, and I left as well. The way she was treated made it so I couldn’t in good faith tell anyone that it was a good place to work or that our boss was any good to work for, and I couldn’t stay on in a role that required me to be the friendly face for new staff.

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    5. E*

      Previous company cut everyone’s pay 5%, reason given was covid. Only our industry wasn’t affected by shutdowns (essential service) and the owners applied for and received the covid business loans. They wondered why 40% of employees left within the year.

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    6. Generic Name*

      Yes. I had what I can only describe as a “last straw” moment at my last company, which I had been at for over 10 years. It was like a switch flipped and I was just fuckin’ done. How did I handle it? I applied for a job that night, got a phone interview and then an interview, and although I didn’t get that job, I had an offer within a couple of months. I now make $40,000 more than I did in my old role.

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    7. Mom of Two Littles*

      My last job handled my pregnancy/leave terribly. It was a women-led nonprofit too which is disappointing. I was assigned a new manager about two months before I went on leave. Everyone else on my team had had a work baby shower or at least an acknowledgement of their baby (which I usually helped plan) I didn’t even get an email The same boss never responded to my email about my baby being born, with pictures. The HR rep did a reply all, but my manager left it on read.

      When I came back I found out the other three woman on my team who were all at the same level as me had been given promotions but I wasn’t (hmm) and that it was decided that they would be sunsetting my department instead of expanding my staff, which was the plan before I went on leave. A big ball of yuck for sure. And the CEO is on all these boards and gets awards and that gives me the ick every time I see a new accolade.

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      1. anon for this*

        I have the same feeling about the public library where my spouse works. Staff are treated like a herd of livestock, safety concerns (they deal with anything from fentanyl overdoses to hatchet fights) are ignored, schedules are seemingly designed to cause health issues, on and on and on.
        Yet tacked up to the front entrance is some happy horseshit plaque extolling the need for justice, equity, and the usual performative textwall.
        The contrast between how the director presents herself and the institution with the soul-crushing reality employees live has soured me so hard that I never use that library system and always dissuade people I know from working there.

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    8. Turingtested*

      I worked at a restaurant famous for its “great working environment.” If you’re in the US and a foodie, you likely know the name.

      One member of management was toxic. Ran off any young women who excelled at the job by endless yelling and criticism. Slept with staff and retaliated against anyone who was nice to her “sweetheart.”

      At first I thought she was clever enough to hide it but it became obvious leadership knew and did not care.

      I have never in 20+ working years encountered anyone with such an obvious bias against young women. Like if the most sexist person you know wrote a TV show about a mean girl manager except it was real life.

      It gave me the ick.

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    9. A Simple Narwhal*

      Years ago I worked for a marketing company and one thing we did was run surveys with the idea of getting data points that could be used in a pitch/campaign for a client. Things like “a majority of respondents age 20-30 spend $100 or more on pet items each month” or “most women between the age of 40-50 don’t factor color into their car purchase decisions”, things like that. And sometimes there were really obvious data points to use, but sometimes there just wasn’t anything major to report. Except that it was unacceptable to not have multiple catchy data points, so I was instructed to find data points that were “technically” true, even if they were not statistically significant. So if you run a survey on grocery purchases, and you find that in the southeast region of Arizona, 1.5% of women age 40-50 buy ice cream every trip and 3.2% of women age 25-30 buy ice cream every trip, it was technically true to say “younger women buy ice cream twice as much as older women”. You could break things down to ridiculous levels by every demographic and group them in different ways, whatever it took to get a clickbait-y sentence that was technically true, even if it wasn’t really true when you looked at the big picture. And then they would run with it to make as much content as they could off of it. It made me feel gross and really distrust any public statistics claims.

      It’s maybe not the worst thing in the world, but it felt really scummy to try and cherry pick the teeny-tiniest bit of information and present it as an overarching reality. Especially just to try and get people to buy something! It really made me take a step back and wonder if marketing was really what I wanted to be doing with my career.

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      1. Paint N Drip*

        UGH! I know it isn’t world-ending, but this is the stuff about marketing and stats that bums me out. I love data! Data is so wonderful! To all the butthead big marketing dogs, quit using data to pull gossamer-thin conclusions, then pretend those conclusions are helpful (then all that BS gets passed around as online media, which contributes to the lies and nonsense “news”)

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    10. Blue Cactus*

      I’m a final year medical student applying to residency. My grandfather had a bad outcome at a hospital that can be partly attributed to a medical error made by one person but was mostly just bad luck, but despite the fact that their residency program in my specialty is well regarded and the hospital is close to my family, I couldn’t get over it enough to apply. The whole institution has just left a bad taste in my mouth.

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    11. JJ*

      My first job out of college I worked for a small company and was on track to take over when the owners decided they were ready to retire. But as part of building me up to take over I worked closely with the husband who ran the finances and just the way he talked about how much the company had to make him in order to be successful while his whole team was vastly underpaid ended up being the last straw for me deciding to leave. A year after I left, they called me up because they were going to retire and wanted to see if I’d come back to run it, and I gave them some ridiculous ask because I did not want them to be able to push back against how I wanted to run things if I returned. They did not take it.

      Another good story is when they came up with a very convoluted calculation for each quarter’s bonus pool and I was like, “Why don’t we simply do X% of profit as the bonus pool?” Math-wise it was roughly equivalent, but they had less control over it. And they looked at me like I had three heads because they wouldn’t make enough. That really should have been my first sign.

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    12. Hyena*

      Yes, and I have the same advice for when this occurs with a romantic partner: if it’s a serious enough infraction that you can’t recover, you should leave. If it’s not actually a big deal and you’re just having some kind of irrational knee-jerk reaction (verify this with reasonable people you trust and/or a large forum like so!) then you’ve gotta evaluate if you can move past it or not.

      For me it was being asked directly to lie to my high school aged team members about a labor issue to make managers’ jobs easier. If you scare a kid into thinking you’ll take money from them to correct cashiering mistakes, hypothetically that should result in fewer errors, right? Who cares about ethics? I refused because that practice is illegal according to my state labor department and I obviously feel strongly about not misinforming young, first-time workers of their legal rights, and started more aggressively pursuing other opportunities (this was already a temporary job).

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    13. Ally McBeal*

      At a previous job I learned about my CEO’s personal indiscretions (including at least two employees in separate incidents) a couple years into the role, and combined with leadership’s general incompetence I started souring on the job a lot sooner than I probably would have otherwise. I just left that one – the CEO wasn’t going anywhere and the leadership team wasn’t taking their incompetence seriously enough to create any real change.

      At another job, I was assigned to support a couple teams, and the leader of one of those teams basically started baiting me into giving him constructive criticism (e.g. “What do other teams do that help them succeed?” “Well, my other teams do XYZ, so I think you could tweak your VWX process into a WXY or XYZ process”) that he then turned around and misrepresented to our CEO as insubordination and disrespect. Fortunately I had been at the company for longer than him, and the CEO told him that didn’t sound like me, but I still got dinged on my raise/bonus/performance review and, when I was eventually moved off his team, I was told that this was my second strike and I would be let go if I messed up again. Fortunately, that jerk burned out and quit about a year later, so I said “I told you so” to my CEO (immensely satisfying) and left maybe 6 months later. I would’ve stayed longer if our clients had been less annoying.

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    14. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      YES. It was years and years ago when I was just a baby pixie. Without giving too many specifics, my (great-grand) boss demanded I do something that (at best) was unethical. I was already pretty unhappy in this job for a lot of reasons but was sticking around due to a promised promotion*. I initially refused (professionally) and explained why I couldn’t do what she asked, and she literally stood in my cube and *stomped her feet.*

      As it so happened, in a fit of pique, the previous week I had applied for an external role I randomly saw posted because I had heard my promotion was stalled because “she’s not going anywhere anyway” (this was aforementioned foot-stomper who said this!) but I had seen other similar asks go through bc people threatened to leave with offers in hand. (Hi, was in HR, I processed a lot of them!) That day, I decided that rather than use it as leverage if I got the offer, I was going to leave because I simply couldn’t work for that person anymore. I did, and I did.

      *Government. I knew where I was, was toxic and unsustainable but I also knew if I got the promotion and could gut it out for a year, my transfer/promotion opportunities going forward would be far better. Of course, when I got the external offer my promotion was approved in literal DAYS. It was more money and better benefits and I still turned it down. I did end up going back to government, and ended up in a great spot with lots of opportunities. I don’t know if I would have landed where I did otherwise, so I’m not sorry about the choice, though at the time I was pretty torn up about it.

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    15. PX*

      Yeah, I dont call it ‘The Ick’ but I have definitely had very clear and defined moments of “Oh, I’m done here” with jobs before. One was when I was in a meeting where I was ostensibly the expert (although junior), but an old white man with more seniority couldnt understand what I was proposing and just ended up angrily saying to me “I dont understand what you’re talking about so just do as I say” – and that was the moment I was done with that job and started seriously job hunting!

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    16. sigh*

      my vp told me that ” noone asked you to do” a project that took me MONTHS !! to complete. It was assigned to me by my director and both he and VP were aware of every step of that process. Started job hunting immediately after that conversation and 10 months later I left.

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    17. CommanderBanana*

      Yes. The way my last org chose to handle sexual harassment/assault at our events permanently soured me on the company.

      It has made me glad that it’s been mentioned several times on their Glassdoor profile, and someone who was interviewing there reached out to me recently to ask about my experience. They chose to pull themselves from the interview process. At least I know I’ve done my part in warning people away from that org.

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    18. Alexandra Beth*

      I work for a small organisation and we have a whole team WhatsApp group. A few weeks ago there was a bit of a pile on in the group about another organisation. Nobody there would ever see the messages but it felt unpleasant. I posted asking if we could be kind. Someone replied No and added new rant.

      The next day my (normally nice) manager spoke to me about it and tried to justify the unkindness. So icky.

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    19. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

      Yes. There were a lot of ways I felt mistreated but the part that broke me was when I was given a date for an internal transfer, a date that conflicted with leave I’d already scheduled. My boss-to-be put on immense pressure for me to cancel my leave because I absolutely Had! To! Start! On that date!

      Boss-to-be then promptly ghosted me. Not so much as a “Yeah, it got delayed” email the day before it was so very important that I show up in a different office.

      I found a new company, told them I was available immediately, and gave my previous employer 2 days notice. My boss at the time threw a fit; I told her to go talk to boss-to-be.

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    20. WestSideStory*

      Someone at the publishing company I worked for left a KKK pamphlet on the desk of a black co-worker. She was understandably distraught and HR tried to sweep it under the rug. As a senior staffer, this was the most egregious of several months of gaslighting and micro-aggressions I had observed in a department where senior staff were all white and junior staff were all women of color.
      I quit soon after, without anything lined up.

      Reply ↓
    21. Cedrus Libani*

      Last year, my company laid off a 30-year employee. No warning, perp-walked out of the building. Lost a lot of institutional knowledge, and a LOT of work…she was a workaholic who was doing the work of at least two people. Her salary reflected this; she’d been getting the max raise for 30 years. Which, of course, got the attention of the spreadsheet huggers back at HQ.

      People were pissed. Some found new jobs and moved on. Others, like me, shrugged it off; companies aren’t your friends, this can happen at any time.

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    22. Chauncy Gardener*

      At my previous job, the CEO refused to hire a woman who had been off work the last few years due to maternity leave and then covid. “Too long of a break” he said. She had worked with at least two other folks in our company who 100% vouched for her, but the CEO wouldn’t hire her. And he’s young!
      That was really the last straw for me even though I was already looking for a new job.

      Reply ↓
    23. Security Princess*

      Yes, it is really a culmination of a number of things including general culture direction and workload, but the way they’ve handled comms over RTO for the handful of people who don’t live in commuting distance has me job searching with urgency.

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    3. Alianne*

      I am a paralegal with a closet full of Ren Faire garb, and I think my “hobbit” outfit (sunny yellow sweater-vest, brown knit skirt with a green leaf border, and necklace laden with little leaves and acorns and bobs) will pass muster with my boss. I’ll have to forego the flower crown, though.

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    4. CTT*

      This is the first year in a while that my weekend Halloween party costume is not appropriate for work and I can’t think of a low-cost alternative, so I’m wearing a law school shirt that has the famous “the parties are advised to chill” line from when Martell sued Aqua over ‘Barbie Girl,’ which I think people will be amused by. (That said, my party costume is the Fleabag jumpsuit, and I did have the crazy thought of “what if I just wore a white turtleneck under it and it’s a IYKY thing,” but realized everyone will think I’m a mime)

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    5. Ostrich Herder*

      Marty McFly! My office is really casual and jeans are always fine, so it’s going to be a departure from my usual style, but still within our dress code.

      Reply ↓
    6. Random Bystander*

      I WFH, but I can’t resist telling about my youngest son’s plan. He works in IT and he is going as Darth Vader (complete with a helmet that actually is a helmet).

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    7. Kesnit*

      Not me, but a new coworker…

      We hired a new attorney for our (city government) office and he started mid-September. When he went to fill out the HR onboarding info, he discovered they had accidentally coded him in the “Sewer Maintenance” Department. (This has now been fixed.) He is joking about coming to work dressed either in coveralls with a toolbelt, or as Mario (the Nintendo plumber).

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    8. Hyena*

      Modern “big bad wolf,” so big fluffy ears and tail with a punk outfit. This is my first office job and I was totally willing to not wear anything because I’m trying to make a professional impression, but we got a company-wide email about a costume contest with photos from the last, so I’m glad I get to have some fun!

      Reply ↓
      1. Sort of a cat*

        My go to is black pants & blouse with black cat ears. Easy to transition to just an outfit & meets the minimum requirement for being a costume.

        Reply ↓
    10. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I think I’m going to go as Carmen Sandiego again from the classic computer game. Black leggings, black shirt, long red sweater (since I cannot find a decent red trenchcoat and yellow scarf. The hat is smooshed so I wont have that.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mom of Two Littles*

        I was Carmen San Diego for Halloween 15 years ago, that was such a fun costume! This actually unlocked a memory for me: I made Geography Trivia cards to hand out to strangers as part of my character when I was out with my friends and then-boyfriend. People loved it and it was fun/funny.
        But at one point one of the people I gave a trivia card to (just handed it to, no speaking) had a girl grab it out of his hand, storm up to me and say angrily “you can have this back!” and then stormed back over to the guy. I’m not sure what she thought I had given to him but she was mad. Besides that it was a great, fun costume.

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    11. Irish Teacher.*

      For us, it was today as it was the last day before the mid-term break. I just wore a witch’s hat along with a long black skirt and a black top with gold studs on it. And wore green eyeshadow to bring out the witchy green in my eyes. My eyes are already green/hazel and I have long brown hair, so…it works.

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    14. Sparkly Librarian*

      Lazy costume: Ms. Rachel (with overalls, pink tee, and headband). I work with babies and toddlers, so some of their families will get it.

      Reply ↓
    15. Yes And*

      I’m going as Employee Who Really Doesn’t Mind At All That His Boss Scheduled A Required In-Person Meeting On His WFH Day. I hope my costume is convincing.

      Reply ↓
    16. Puff*

      I have a dragon onesie that I wear most years. I wear normal clothes underneath and will take the costume off if needed. I’m attending a big work conference and presenting that morning so I’ll take it off for that! I know many of the participants so it won’t change their opinion of me, yet I want them to be focused on the work that I did and not what I’m wearing. The onesie cost me $20 a couple decades ago so well worth the investment as it’s fun and easy.

      Reply ↓
  9. Mrs. Rabbit*

    Very low stakes question – how does everyone handle the seemingly never ending onslaught of spam emails at work? For a while I was just deleting. Then I started blocking sender because I guess the same people who think cold emails are the best way to sell their totally irrelevant products also think that no response means “please keep emailing me.” Nothing seems to slow it down, and I know it’s not a big deal to just delete, but they bug me. Probably (definitely) more than they should.

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    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I have really good rules applied as filters, and I just check the filter folders once a month. It’s quick in outlook too, right click, new rule, add sender to rule , select folder, done.

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    2. this-is-fine.jpeg*

      As someone who used to do the job of cold emailing, I would try to have a teeny bit of empathy for those on the other side. Your name got on a prospect list somehow so they’re just doing their jobs! If possible, sometimes there’s an unsubscribe / opt out link OR you can respond ‘please remove me from your email list’ and that *should* do the trick.
      Remember that the reason they keep emailing is because it works! It always used to suprise me when someone would ignore my first 4 emails but then respond and it would turn into a $2M contract!

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    3. IL JimP*

      you could speak with your IT department about improving their spam blocker

      depending on the size of the org a lot of IT departments are able to filter out a lot of the spam that makes it to you

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    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      True crap spam gets filtered out by my email system. Marketing-list stuff from vendors in my field who want to sell me their products or services gets me clicking “unsubscribe.” Individuals reaching out to me directly about something I MIGHT want someday but definitely don’t want now get a response of “I’m not interested. If something changes in the future, I have your information and will contact you, but please don’t contact me going forward.”

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    5. Jenna Webster*

      I’ve been working on this, too, but they’re only annoying until you actually need them. I have deleted so many emails from companies that help move and store library materials, and now I need them. One actually popped up yesterday and I was delighted.

      That said, I am definitely taking the time to unsubscribe from the things I’m (almost) positive I won’t need at any point.

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    6. juliebulie*

      Our spam catcher unfortunately doesn’t delete the spam, just saves it in another folder. I would rather they got marked as read and go straight to the trash, but alas my employer’s spam-catching rules are applied before my own rules.

      The services, products, and training offered in all this junk mail have nothing to do with my role and in most cases nothing to do with my employer’s industry. I imagine that someone probably pays good money for “leads” that are nothing more than reverse-engineered email addresses based on LinkedIn profiles. Suckers!

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    7. fhqwhgads*

      I receive very little spam at work. IT has configured our spam blocker very well. Very few actual emails get nabbed. Very few actual spam emails get through. I’m talking single digits per week. Sometimes, single digits per month.
      If this isn’t on your company IT’s radar, maybe try to put it there? This should be org-wide configured not something you personally deal with.

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    8. Toot Sweet*

      I wish there were a better way! The B2B marketing emails drive me crazy. “Block sender” works up to a point, then some of them seem to change email addresses to get through anyway. I’ve clicked on a few “Unsubscribe” links that led to websites that my company has blocked. I’m always leery of sending a reply with “opt-out” or whatever they ask for because I’ve been told in the past that it’s a way of just verifying that they’ve sent their spam to a legit email address. I don’t know whether that’s true or not. It seems to be worse in some months than others.

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    9. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      My company has really good filters so things usually end in Junk. But it is really annoying. Especially when people want you to use their product or something.

      Reply ↓
  10. Alex*

    Any advice on how to handle a customer who was extremely nasty and rude in the past? I work a weekend job and last weekend a regular customer was horrible to me, but she still thinks she was in the right (I was enforcing a policy that she didn’t like, and she accused me of making it up just for her). It wasn’t the first time she was rude to me (or others) but definitely the most dramatic. I’m dreading this weekend because I know she will come in.

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    2. HonorBox*

      Have you spoken to your manager about this? Is there any way that someone with greater authority could be present in case she comes in and raises a stink? Is there any possibility of refusing to serve her if she’s rude?

      Reply ↓
    3. LadyAmalthea*

      is there any way someone else can be around in case this person is especially insufferable and can back you up?

      If at all possible, avoid getting into the issue and address the here and now, but as some people delight in petty grudges, having back-up will probably be helpful.

      Reply ↓
      1. Alex*

        No, no one else except someone much younger and more junior than me will be around. I am not a manager nor do I have a senior title of any kind, but there are no managers on duty when I work.

        I have told my manager about it, and this customer has complained about me to my manager before. In the past, he has told me that I did the right thing (meaning, I was in the right in making whatever call she didn’t like) but I am not sure what he has said to her.

        I don’t really have the option of refusing service to her–I wish I did, I would definitely use it!–but in the past the only people we have refused service to are people who have physically threatened us or other customers, or used racial slurs towards us or other customers. And yes, that has happened–people are AWFUL.

        Reply ↓
        1. municipal worker*

          Just because the manager won’t be around does not mean that you can’t make it the manager’s problem. In fact, if your company expects you to deal with a rude person without having the support or the tools you would need to effectively do so, part of your job is to bring this to the manager’s attention.

          You can try to get a manager on the phone and/or you can let her rant and rave into a voice mail. You can with you. If she follows you into the employee only area, you will advise her to write down her complaint and you will make sure the manager gets it.

          You can repeat the phrase “I am not authorized…” until she leaves. If she won’t leave, you can leave! Go into an employees only area and take your junior co-worker with you.

          It is completely unreasonable for your workplace to expect a couple of part-timers to deal with this sort of thing on their own. You need, at the very least, an on-call situation for a manager on duty because things come up.

          Reply ↓
    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It’s not personal – she was angry at the policy, not specifically at you. She would have done the same to whichever employee enforced the policy.

      Also, the customer does this because she has learned that, in general, being nasty and rude works for her. It gets her what she wants.

      So the way to deal with it is to reboot and deal with her on an interaction-by-interaction basis. Don’t mentally tense up. Accept the possibility that she, or any other customer, might behave rudely at any time, have your responses pre-planned, and respond professionally. Nothing frustrates a rule-breaker like a bland, calm, rule-reiterating response.

      (I’m assuming that this is garden-variety rudeness, not bigotry)

      Reply ↓
    5. learnedthehardway*

      Print out the relevant policies and have them on hand to show her? Refer her to your manager, if she has a problem with the policies?

      “Ms. Warblesworth, I can’t do anything about the policies. If you want to take it up with head office, here is the phone number.”

      Reply ↓
    6. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      I’m a big fan of the “subtly treat them like a raving crackhead who just wandered in off the street” strategy when dealing with rude, entitled people. Short, breezy tone; very calm/unbothered demeanor (juuust shy of dismissive); maybe even one or two up-and-down glances of judgment. Get them in and out as quickly and efficiently as possible, and don’t give them even a hint that they’re having any emotional effect on you at all. And definitely don’t give them anything to work with.

      Reply ↓
      1. Katydid*

        Yes, I think being extremely unbothered is the way to go. Just very boring, monotone answers if she questions the policy “yes, the policy from last week is still in place, no I can’t change it, you are welcome to come talk to my manager on Monday, etc” Do not show any emotion, don’t take the bait at all. If you apologize make sure it’s “I’m sorry you feel that way, this is how we are doing to handle this.”

        Reply ↓
    7. Alex*

      Thanks All. I guess being super boring and trying to remember that it’s not really about me. (Hard when she makes personal attacks!)

      I wish my manager would do more but he really just won’t. I did give him a detailed rundown of what happened but his response can be boiled down to *shrug*. She constantly “threatens” to “tell” my manager on me, which she has, although that hasn’t really had any effect either way (it neither discourages her from being rude going forward nor gets me in trouble.)

      I definitely think that in other aspects of her life people have just given in to her because she is SO exhausting and persistent in getting what she wants. She won’t take no for an answer and will just be unpleasant and I’m sure people just give in so she will go away.

      Reply ↓
      1. Cookie Monster*

        I used to work in retail with customers like this. I found it helpful to disengage emotionally and first validate their feelings with something like “I totally get why that’s frustrating, but unfortunately…” (if this makes sense – her frustration might not be reasonable! but it might help to say it anyway), then just keep saying the same thing about how you can’t change the policy in a perfectly pleasant, warm tone. Yes, be repetitive and boring, but pleasant.

        Sometimes I say the “Totally get why you’re frustrated…” bit as if it’s now like a secret between the two of us, like we’re in on it together.

        Reply ↓
        1. Ellis Bell*

          I agree that being proactively kind and warm on your own terms is another good tactic; anything like this keeps the conversation from being reactionary.

          Reply ↓
      2. Ellis Bell*

        What kind of personal attacks are we talking here? The answer determines whether the following advice is practical or not. If she’s not being super insulting, but just salty and unpleasant in general then channel your inner oscar winner and become very nonchalant. Like a French person who can’t even be bothered to summon a gallic shrug. Act like you could do this all day “I’m sorry you feel that way”, with the subtext being (but I don’t care enough to change your mind) or “I wish I could do more” said very flatly. If she’s just trying to steamroll you then it’s a game where the person who cares least has the most power. But if she’s making personal attacks, all bets may be off?

        Reply ↓
      3. Purple Cat*

        Next time she “threatens” to “tell” on you, just proactively say “I welcome you speaking to my manager directly. He confirmed I was correct about x, here’s his number.”

        That validates that you were right and you’re not “scared” of her.

        Reply ↓
    8. Mom of Two Littles*

      This is a timely question, I work with certain population that needs the support of the program I work for. 99% of the group I support is lovely but this past week one of the clients sent me a very rude, belittling email, after I have spent multiple hours working to help her on an issue. I called an agency on her, and she was not providing clear information so I had to spend a few hours looking into her case. To compare, I’ve spent 0-3 minutes on each other client this week.

      After I read her email I was pretty upset, and thought of all the response-options I had that were still professional but then I did some googling and found a Reddit thread about it and the comments made me feel a lot better. One commenter said that to help yourself get over one of these type of negative reactions of a customer is to think that this person is not well/happy/in a good place. Most people that are content would not react in that type of way to someone else, and it’s not a reflection of you, it’s a reflection of them. The poster recommended feeling empathy for someone who can’t regulate themselves, and probably has a hard time when they move through life acting out like that.
      I’m not sure if that will make you feel better, but it worked for me so I thought I’d share it. I’m sorry though, I know how you feel I was reeling for hours about my experience and I don’t have to see this person IRL.

      Reply ↓
    9. KB*

      I used to work in retail in a charge office–which means I never saw anyone until they were already angry. Things that helped:
      Solutions for my own peace of mind, YMMV:
      1) Remembering they are not angry at me, or even at the policy, they are angry about their divorce, they are anxious about their money troubles, they are mad at their boss… something else is driving them, and it’s not me. Being a detective and trying to imagine what their story might be intrigued me. But I realize that’s me, not necessarily you.
      2) Focusing on the times when I could fix the problem for someone else.
      3) Focusing on the people who were nice even when the policy sucked.
      As for the customer interaction:
      Others have already mentioned printing out the policy. I suggest that you also acknowledge that the policy is making them unhappy and (as might be available to you) hand them the manager’s phone number or tell them when the manager is on-site so that they can discuss the policy with the manager. That might make your manager angry, but — how much do you need or like this job?

      Reply ↓
  11. Ashley Armbruster*

    My manager quit earlier this month so we’re hiring for his replacement. Myself, and my two teammates (we would all be reporting to this person), did 2 panel interviews with candidates. As we were discussing the candidates afterwards, “Wally” said how annoyed he was that he’d been with the company for 3 years and he didn’t know why they didn’t ask him about the manager position, because he thought he could do it. Wally is at a senior contributor level (but he’s still pretty early in his career) but he basically just owns his area (he focuses on teapots, while the other teammate and I focus on kettles), he doesn’t delegate tasks to anyone, he doesn’t take on the lead on complex projects, etc. I also personally am not a huge fan of Wally because the way he communicates, there is an unlaying tactless way about it, and I strongly suspect a big piece of that is that I’m a woman. I’m not sure why he didn’t discuss his career goals with our former manager, or with the director who’s department we fall under. Honestly, I don’t even think he has the ability and humbleness needed to develop skills to even be a team leader.

    Anyway, I was curious, have you worked with a Wally who was so delusional and entitled they thought they should be given their former manager’s role when they left?

    Reply ↓
    1. I treated you like a son*

      It doesn’t sound like Wally’s being *that* delusional if he’s a Sr contributor and is now part of the interview panel. If he’s earlier in his career it does seem like he’s on the right track.

      But it sounds like he lacks some interpersonal skills which may be the problem, but if he’s young it could be a matter of he just needs a little polish.

      Anyway, doesn’t sound like it’s really your problem to worry about

      Reply ↓
    2. HonorBox*

      I haven’t, luckily. But I think in this spot you can either choose to just ignore Wally. He’s probably mostly harmless and so self involved that he can’t see the reason he wasn’t asked to apply. You could (if applicable) point out that companies don’t always ask current employees to apply. He could have had he wanted to. And then if you feel like this weird grudge he’s holding is causing him to negatively impact the interview process, I might say something to whoever you’re reporting to, or to HR. The last thing everyone needs is someone who harms an interview process, even unintentionally.

      Reply ↓
    3. this-is-fine.jpeg*

      oh wow yes! Worked with someone who openly told me she was on a PIP because she never completed her core work (work was tracked in a ticket system and everyone on the team could see she just wasn’t doing it) and took multiple leaves of absence as a way to avoid consequences. And when her manager left, she told me she was upset that someone else got promoted because she thought she could do the job!

      I just sighed and hoped that I’m not half as delusional as this.

      Reply ↓
    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      Fortunately, no! I think my response would have been something like, “wow, that sounds disappointing. Did you apply for the position or let them know you were interested?” Because 99% of the time entitled people like this expect things to be handed to them without even asking.

      Reply ↓
      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        I love these sorts of responses. I use them all the time with my clients. People have many ideas in their heads that would be wonderful but don’t seem to know whether those ideas are realistic, or how to put them into action, or even how to research those answers.

        Reply ↓
    5. learnedthehardway*

      My direct report in a role was a Wally. He thought he should have gotten the role I was hired to do. Nobody bothered to tell me he had been a candidate, and didn’t occur to me to think that he might have been, because he was NOT qualified for the role. Turns out he thought he was qualified, was offended at not getting the job, and decided to quiet quit (before that was a thing). He would randomly “work from home”, but which I mean he would simply stay home without giving me any notice and do home renovations. He also started running a side business. Meanwhile, all the assignments I gave him were ignored, or evaded: he’d claim at the last minute that he didn’t understand something or that the deadline wasn’t clear, or would push back with all the reasons why something reasonable couldn’t be done. He also was quite delusional about what his contributions were – this became evident when he claimed credit for an initiative that our department was only tangentially involved in – along the lines of thinking he was captaining the cruise ship but was really only responsible for arranging the deck chairs. That incident clued me in to the fact that I hadn’t entered the Twilight Zone, but that he actually believed he was running the show.

      Ended up having a rather direct conversation with him to the effect of “If you want to progress your career, you’re going about it the wrong way” and then when he didn’t improve, I gave him a “needs improvement” on a couple areas of his performance review. He left shortly afterwards, thankfully.

      Reply ↓
      1. Generic Name*

        Wow, I think your former direct report is the coworker I describe below. He will also “work from home/on the train”. He said that he hasn’t taken a single day of PTO even though he’s gone on several vacations. He told me that he was working while visiting family the last week of the year and said that he just hung out with family and “checked email occasionally” and counted that as a work day. I definitely raised my eyebrows when he said that.

        Reply ↓
    6. Unkempt Flatware*

      Oh dear. I have and this person was my work-friend. She really couldn’t understand why she wasn’t asked to apply for the controller job since she was a long time accountant for the company. She often asked me what I thought and I’d try to give her a nice response. She pushed me so hard that I finally went for the “kind” response which was, “unfortunately, people seem to find you strange and off-putting”. She never spoke to me again. But she did become a lot less strange and off-putting.

      Reply ↓
    7. Generic Name*

      Yes. The “Wally” in my department started asking for a promotion because he’d “been here for about a year”, which in my mind in no way qualifies a person for a promotion to a senior level just by itself. But he really felt he was entitled to a promotion. Here’s where the delusional part comes in, he abuses hybrid working (he counts his commute time on the train as working time because he glances at outlook and teams on his phone occasionally), and he is not meeting expectations on his project work. Senior staff are expected to oversee others who lead their portions of projects, but he cannot successfully lead on his part of projects. He is rude to his boss and generally acts bitter and entitled.

      Reply ↓
    8. Tired Librarian*

      I managed a Wally during a maternity cover job – the first thing he told me in our first 1:1 was that he should have been given the job, and it was just ridiculous admin rules that meant he couldn’t apply because he hadn’t worked for the employer a full year yet! (That wasn’t true, and he absolutely was in no way qualified for the job I was covering. Frankly I was barely qualified but had significantly more relevant experience…)

      Reply ↓
    9. Toot Sweet*

      Yes! I worked with an extremely arrogant administrative assistant who said he would definitely be the CEO of the organization someday. It was a faith-based charity, and he changed religions so that he could work toward that goal. Yes, you read that right: he converted.

      Reply ↓
    10. Seal*

      My last job had a few of them. Not surprisingly, they were young men who had minimal work or managerial experience, but assumed their intellect and gender were all they needed to move up. This was in an academic library at a large research university where they were surrounded by people with multiple degrees and years of experience; some were known nationally or internationally as experts in their field. In the library, everyone in managerial or administrative roles had broad knowledge of the organization and profession, regularly represented the library within and outside the university, and were active in professional organizations. These guys had narrowly-focused jobs, didn’t know what anyone else outside their units did, and insisted that the librarians in particular didn’t do anything because they only saw them at the reference desk. Yet when the dean left and one of the associate deans move into that role, they complained mightily how unfair it was that it went to an internal hire. Never mind that this was a highly qualified and well-respected woman who had been working her way up since before they were born. They insisted that the library and the university would be better off if it thought outside the box and hired someone like them, because how hard could it be to run a library?

      It’s one thing to be ambitious and set lofty goals for yourself; quite another to assume your inherent superiority entitles you to a leadership role without putting in the work.

      Reply ↓
    11. Bread Crimes*

      Oo, I was a Wally once, to my lasting (if mild, at this distance) shame. My first full-time job after college, I was one of two warehouse/CS clerks under a manager for a little online store attached to a larger company. When the manager took on more responsibility in the broader company, she decided she needed an assistant manager to handle some of her role that she didn’t have time for anymore–and told me explicitly, but kindly and gently, that she would be hiring from outside for this.

      I actually cried at her. (ye gods and little fishes!) Sobbing about how I felt rejected and underappreciated and so forth because I wasn’t even being considered for the position.

      But… it was a perfectly good choice on her part! I was unmedicated and undiagnosed ADHD, and I had a really hard time keeping on track with my own work if I didn’t have someone else giving me tasks. And, again, first full-time job out of college, ever. I was all of 21 years old, maybe 22? And with no work experience before college, and pretty minimal work experience during college at that. I would have been a TERRIBLE assistant manager.

      I hope all the other Wallies out there grow out of their hubris, and can look back with a wince from a more mature future self.

      Reply ↓
  12. Ann O'Nemity*

    I manage a small team in a large company. Ethan has been with the company for 12 years. The other members of the team have similar years of experience and education but have only been with our company a few years. Because the company provides more vacation time based on tenure, Ethan received double the time off as the rest of the team. Ethan sometimes struggles with deadlines and is not completing the same amount of work as his peers, but he also takes weeks more vacation time. The rest of the team, especially me, often need to work extra to pick up the slack.

    I need some advice. Do I tell Ethan he needs to take less of his earned vacation time? Tell him he needs to work tons of extra hours before and after vacations to catch up? Lower his workload and responsibilities? None of these seem like good options.

    Reply ↓
    1. londonedit*

      You definitely can’t tell Ethan not to take his holiday time. That’s his compensation – it would be as bad as telling him he can’t have his whole salary every month.

      I would separate the holiday thing out from the actual problem – that Ethan struggles with deadlines and doesn’t complete the work he needs to. That probably doesn’t have anything to do with how much holiday he takes – he needs to be able to finish his work on time and stick to deadlines, full stop. As does anyone else who has a job that involves delivering things on time. I think you need to speak to Ethan about why he struggles with deadlines, and tell him it can’t continue, and see whether there’s an underlying problem (either with his working processes, or with other people in the pipeline, or whatever), and then whether there’s anything Ethan needs to help him meet his deadlines.

      Reply ↓
      1. A large cage of birds*

        This. The vacation thing may not make for good optics within the team but he gets what he gets.

        But the deadlines and productivity are issues that should be addressed separately.

        Reply ↓
      2. HonorBox*

        Agreed. You can’t not let him take his time. But, you can, in theory, not approve specific time off requests. And I think it is completely fair to tell him that as you look at requests, you will prioritize requests based on work and deadlines. If you have a big customer pitch at the end of October and someone is requesting the week before the pitch, you can very easily deny that request and ask them to schedule for a better time. This is similar. Ethan isn’t getting stuff done and as the manager, you can look at what his absence means to output.

        Reply ↓
      3. Ann O'Nemity*

        I’m going to push back a little on this. When Ethan takes a two week vacation in the middle of a project, it absolutely does impact his ability to get the work done on time. And we’re always working on projects.

        This is my conundrum. I don’t want to tell Ethan he can’t take his earned vacation time, but I also don’t like telling him that he must make up the hours before or after the vacation! So that leaves… having the rest of the team take on the extra work.

        Reply ↓
        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          I would say you still can’t push back on him taking the same AMOUNT of time, because he’s entitled to it, but you can set boundaries on WHEN he takes it. “Ethan, we need to accomplish XYZ by [date]. If you take those two weeks off now, we won’t be able to get that done without putting a real burden on the rest of the team, which isn’t fair. I’ll be happy to approve time off for after the project is over.”

          But it also sounds like there’s an overall problem of there being more work than the people on your team can do WITH THE WORK TIME THEY HAVE. If either less vacation than they have EARNED, or putting in extra hours, is required for the work to get done, then you don’t have enough people doing the work. You might consider making that case to upper management.

          Reply ↓
        2. MsM*

          Again, I think the focus needs to be on getting the work done. Whether he does that by adjusting his vacation schedule, crunching right before he goes, or talking to you about redistributing the work in a way that doesn’t put undue burden on his colleagues is up to him. The point is, he can’t keep missing deadlines or just assuming it’ll get taken care of while he’s out.

          Reply ↓
        3. EmF*

          If you’re always working on projects, and team members can’t take leave during projects because otherwise the projects won’t get done… when are they supposed to take their leave?

          While obviously I don’t know the details of your work, what it sounds like to me is “we need 1000 hours of work done. If all our people work their allotted hours (FT minus vacation time) that leaves 100 hours’ worth of work undone.”

          In my workplace, what that would mean is we were understaffed. For a project-based workplace… maybe that means that Bob’s role on X project should be confined to setup or finish tasks so that Bob can take vacation during the project time when he’s not needed? That requires enough advanced notice to plan the project accordingly, but advanced notice is a reasonable requirement. There isn’t an ethical solution which involves not taking PTO.

          Reply ↓
          1. Msd*

            I agree. People have to be able to schedule and take vacations. At many places there are always projects and deadlines. Maybe try to avoid go-live dates but having said that I’ve been on many projects where the go-live date has changed.

            Reply ↓
        4. dude, who moved my cheese?*

          Woah, yeah, sorry. This seems like a bigger issue with the overall workload and workplace structure. It’s reasonable to say someone can’t take vacation in the middle of a major project or deadline if they don’t have a track record of meeting the deadline otherwise. It’s *not* reasonable to say ‘we’re always working on projects so it’s never a good time to take vacation’ and it’s *absolutely* not reasonable to ask someone to make up their vacation time (!!).

          Reply ↓
        5. Bunny Watson*

          This sounds like a short staffing problem as well. You do need consider the amount of work that people can realistically accomplish when they are at work, but you have to factor in time off for everyone as well. When Ethan is there, is he being productive and getting things done? If it’s solely that he’s not as productive as others because he’s on vacation then that is an unfair standard. If he’s not getting as much done as others when there, then address that. But if it’s that he’s getting less done because he takes more vacation, then that is a business problem not an Ethan problem.

          Reply ↓
          1. Nesta*

            I agree with this. If there is never a quiet period without projects, it would be impossible to take any significant vacation without the options being a) work falls behind or b) extra work is done by those not on vacation.

            If it is possible to plan trips longer term, so that perhaps his part of a particular project can be assigned earlier, and the deadline of the next project can be adjusted, this can work a little, but it just sounds in general like you are all over-tasked and under-staffed. There needs to be flexibility for those taking vacations, or staff being ill or having medical situations or family situations that need attending to.

            If he is missing deadlines when no one else is and he is doing a realistic workload (meaning that your other reports are making these deadlines by constantly working a ton of overtime), that is a performance issue that needs to be addressed, but if the issue is more that he can’t take time off without falling behind than these deadlines are not realistic and/or you are overworked/understaffed.

            Reply ↓
        7. Beth*

          You can’t tell Ethan not to take his earned compensation.

          But you can ask him to schedule long trips for a better time. I hear you about always working on projects, but in my world, the initial project launch and the last bit before the deadline are always the busiest parts of the project cycle–you must also have some pattern of peaks and lulls, right? Ask him to schedule for the quieter periods. (If there are no lulls, consider whether your project timelines are being planned too tightly; there should be room for people to be out for a few days or even a week without throwing their current projects completely off track.)

          And you can actually ask him to handle most of the project work around his vacation. Some things–keep-the-lights-on level tasks, anything with an urgent deadline that he’ll be OOO for–will still need to get passed off. But I think it’s pretty normal to expect people to pick up where they left off when they get back in office. Assuming your project timelines are built with some leeway for outages and other delays, it shouldn’t be that hard for him to manage.

          If you know your project timelines are built with that leeway, and you know that he still can’t manage them while taking his PTO, then the real conundrum is that one of your most tenured team members isn’t keeping up with a reasonable workload.

          Reply ↓
        8. fhqwhgads*

          It’s not about telling him to make up the hours. It’s that is he knows he has a 2 week vacation coming up (presumably knows this well in advance) then he needs to plan accordingly in the run up. That’s part of his not handling deadlines well. Doesn’t matter if it’s a 2 week vacation or a one week vacation or a 4 day weekend, if he’s so not on top of his work that it’s a burden on his team for him to use his earned time off, either he workload is unreasonable (sounds like it’s not) or he needs to adjust the way he’s working, and prioritize stuff to minimize the effect. If y’all are ALWAYS working on projects, then it sounds like his entire approach is a poor fit for the job.

          Reply ↓
        9. Madeleine Matilda*

          If you are going to have a policy that time off can’t be taken when there are critical deadlines, then have it apply to everyone not only Ethan. Also tell people far in advance what the times are when leave cannot be taken except in emergency situations. And if people will be out on leave when there are deadlines then they need to hand off the work to a designated person who can finish critical tasks so nothing falls behind.

          Separately you need to have a conversation with Ethan about meeting deadlines and giving you a briefing on where his work stands when he is going on leave.

          Reply ↓
        10. I should really pick a name*

          Does that happen when other people take a vacation in the middle of a project?

          If not, then the problem isn’t the vacation, it’s how Ethan handles his workload, and that should be the focus.

          Reply ↓
    2. Goddess47*

      Do you have a good relationship with another manager who does similar things to you? They likely also have an Ethan. How do they manage?

      Otherwise, this is a brainstorm with your manager. Lay out the problem and see what advice they can give you. They may have experience or know someone in a similar position who can give you advice.

      If you have a really good relationship with your team, get them to suggest options. At some point, they will be Ethan (one might hope) and won’t want to dump their work on each other. But be careful with this, you don’t want them to gang up on Ethan for something that’s not his fault and, honestly, not his problem to solve. Also, to be fair, the final decision on how to handle this clearly has to be yours. It is a management issue.

      The bottom line is that, sorry, this is your problem to manage. Ethan is entitled to his time off and you have to manage the resources you have to do the work. If you don’t have enough resources, then — again — this goes up to your manager for discussion. And it’s a business problem. “I have X employees with Y available working hours but Y+N hours of work. What kind of resources are available to cope with the N hours of work I do not have staff to do?” The rest of the team should not be penalized for time off someone is entitled to.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    4. Ann O'Nemity*

      Thanks for all the advice! So is the solution is to lower Ethan’s workload and responsibilities? In other words, because he gets so much more vacation time he shouldn’t be assigned as much work.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        This probably sounds like a dumb question, I realize! But up until now I’ve been assigning the same amount to work to everyone with this role, which I thought was the fair approach. But because Ethan gets so much more vacation, he doesn’t have the time to complete the same amount of work as his peers.

        Reply ↓
        1. Generic Name*

          So everyone in your department is 100% allocated to projects that taking vacation time leads to missing deadlines? This means you are understaffed if you have zero float. The issue isn’t that Ethan takes his earned vacation; the issue is that you have no flexibility in your workload balance.

          Reply ↓
          1. Ann O'Nemity*

            Lots of project work, but not 100%. There’s some variation throughout the year too. So I do think that asking Ethan to take longer vacations during slower periods will help somewhat.

            I also have some discretion to set workloads if I do it far in advance. This is a huge simplification, but basically I’ve been thinking that everyone on the team can do 10 projects a year so that’s what we plan. But then Ethan takes his time off and can’t complete 10 projects without help. If Ethan is only assigned 8 or 9, there is less risk that the rest of the team will have to step in. This seems like a workable solution.

            I was stuck on the idea that since Ethan is in the same role as his peers, he should be completing the same amount of work.

            Reply ↓
            1. Cookie Monster*

              I dunno. If I found out the most senior person on the team was now getting LESS work because he has so much more vacation time, I’d be pissed.

              I would follow the others’ advice about focusing on deadlines and you can add “let’s both work together to come up with ways to make sure that happens. That might mean X or Y, or adjusting when you take time off, or Z.”

              Reply ↓
              1. KB*

                I’m sorry you feel aggrieved, but Ethan didn’t make the rules.

                Ethan cannot be expected to make 40,000 widgets if he only has enough work time to make 35,000 widgets, and he cannot be told to “make up” for the hours he takes in vacation time because then… it’s not vacation time.

                The staffing issue is not Ethan’s fault. Either the widget goals need to be reduced or the staffing needs to be increased, or someone has to invent a widget-o-matic machine that makes the widgets more cheaply and faster.

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                1. Future*

                  Agreed. If anything the other employees should be pissed that they have so much less vacation time.

              2. Paint N Drip*

                I agree that it would offend me a bit but also… if he’s a senior worker, he SHOULD be able to handle the same workload in less time.
                Ann O’Nemity – you need to work with him on his SKILLS (time management, project management, whatever you can suss out the ACTUAL problem is) not his workload

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                1. lost academic*

                  Very much depends on the nature of the job. Some aspects of the job cannot be done any faster once you are proficient.

                  Also, don’t fall in the trap of considering him “more senior” when the OP didn’t suggest that he was. He has had more TENURE which is why he gets more vacation time. Nothing OP said in the question so far or in the follow up comments to this point suggested he was more experienced at the role and SHOULD be faster. He’s just been there longer.

                  I think OP is falling into a time averaging trap of this 10 projects per year. If he’s taking off let’s say an additional 160 hours (4 weeks) compared to colleagues against about 2000 hours available, well, that’s almost an entire project assuming they’re on average about the same amount of time. So assigning a project less and paying attention to vacation scheduling for the workflow is what OP should do – and that’s a straightforward solution, but OP definitely caught personally caught up in the vacation time.

            2. Beth*

              I mean…I would also expect that the most tenured person in the department, with the most institutional knowledge and the most experience with your team-specific workflows and processes, would get his work done a little faster than less tenured team members. Yeah, tenure comes with perks like extra vacation time, but I wouldn’t expect him to need to be assigned less work as a result.

              I don’t think you should be planning for everyone on the team to do 10 projects. Having some flexibility makes sense–you’d probably naturally expect a little less of a new hire, for example, and also some projects are likely harder than others and might take more time or experience to pull off.

              But if you’re truly seeing that Ethan can’t handle a full workload, as the most tenured person on the team, then I think you should be looking at his perfomance when he’s in office.

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        2. fhqwhgads*

          If literally everyone is doing exactly the same amount of work, at the same pace, and assigning less to Ethan would 100% solve the problem you’re describing, (eg if it’s really true that the only hold up is he gets more time off than everyone else, but there’s enough work to fill his time off and no one left to do it), you have a staffing problem, not an Ethan problem.
          If Ethan takes longer than everyone to do the work, and his extra vacation is exacerbating that because he takes more time to do things but is at work less, then you’ve got an Ethan problem.
          You need to figure out which problem you have and then solve for that. From your original post I thought you had an Ethan problem but now I suspect you have a staffing problem.

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        3. PX*

          Yeah no. When doing workforce/resource planning, it needs to be based on staff *working availability*.

          The very simple way to do this is assume 52 weeks in the year:
          – If Jane has 4 weeks annual leave, and assume 1 week of sick time taken, you budget and allocate work assuming Jane will work (52-5=) 47 weeks in the year
          – If Ethan has 8 weeks of annual leave, and assume 1 week of sick time taken, you budget and allocate work assuming Ethan works (52-9=) 43 weeks in the year

          As Generic Name said, you should then also apply contingencies to this and not assume everyone is 100% productive all the time. A typical rule of thumb would then be to multiply the available weeks in the year by something like 0.8 (assumes 20% inefficient time) to figure out a realistic workload to people balance.

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        4. Strive to Excel*

          Ideally the trade-off is that Ethan only does 8 or 9 projects instead of 10, but because he’s been here for 12 years you can give him the projects that need a lot of company/client experience and would take other employees more time.

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          1. EmF*

            This. My team has more senior members with more vacation time, and we have a “x things per working day” goal for everyone. The more senior members do complete fewer things, but they are also the go-tos for the dumpster fires. On the other hand, I have someone who’s brand-new and gets company-minimum vacation time, and therefore completes more things, but the things are much simpler and less sensitive.

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        5. Managing to get by*

          It’s difficult to tell from the information provided if Ethan is slow at his job, or if you’re assigning him work while he’s on PTO? How much vacation is he getting and how does he take it? Does he take a few weeks off in a row, or does he take, for instance, every Friday off for a few months?

          If he takes every Friday off for several weeks in a row, you should not be assigning him 5 days worth of work those weeks.

          If he takes clusters of several days off or weeks off, then when he’s in he should have a normal workload, sometimes a little more while others on are vacation, and when he’s out he should not have assignments. If he’s on long-term projects while he’s out, you need to assign a backup. He would also backup others on their projects while they’re out. This is just how vacation/time off works. I don’t see how taking vacation would make someone need a lower work load year-round, unless he has enough PTO to decrease his work hours year-round.

          We’ve had people in our department take several month leaves of absence for the birth of a child, and when they’re working they get the same amount of work as everyone else, and when they’re not working the work that would have been assigned to them is leveled to the rest of the team. When someone else on the team is on vacation and the employee who took a leave is working, they take on some extra work to cover. We spread it out across the team so it’s not a big burden, and everyone has time off at some point so they understand the need to cover for each other.

          I’m at the max PTO for my company, which is about 7 weeks, and I take 3 vacations of 1-2 weeks per year and several 3 or 4 day weekends. I do sometimes work a little late the couple of days before PTO, and then the rest of the leadership team covers for me while I’m out and I cover for them while they’re on PTO.

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        6. spcepickle*

          In theory someone who has a ton of experience should be faster at their work then someone who has less experience.
          So while I don’t think you are wrong that lowering his work load is an approach to dealing with his tons of vacation time. I also think it is important that you separate out your issue that he is really slow at his job and your staffing issue of covering vacation time (which is a company issue and not a you issue).
          My work is also all project based – and I tell me people they need to manage project responsibilities with vacation expectation. We are always super busy in August and September – you can’t take vacation then. When you start with my team we tell you this, we cover it in the spring and then in the winter we tell everyone to take their long vacations in February. It sounds like your projects might cycle more consistently but can you sit down with Ethan and plan to some degree which projects he gets with what vacations he wants to take. So that his vacations don’t land in the middle of his projects?

          Reply ↓
          1. Ann O'Nemity*

            Ethan isn’t more experienced than his peers, he’s just been at this company longer – and not all in this role. His peers bring similar years of experience from other companies.

            Reply ↓
            1. lost academic*

              Made a comment guessing this was the situation above. So you just have a regular employee that has some unrelated productivity issues that can be addressed in some other way, and then you have a management problem yourself in that you need to more appropriately assign work based on your forecast of your team’s availability. MAYBE you need to also address (possible with everyone) how much lead time you require for PTIO requests over a week (if your company doesn’t already outline that) but I think proactive workflow management is what you need to focus on here. Once you do that, you’ll actually have line of sight on what is and isn’t a problem with Ethan’s productivity, which again, is only something to consider WHEN he’s working.

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      2. Cordelia*

        There’s no reason to lower his responsibilities, but yes the workload needs to be reduced. Think of it as him getting higher pay per hour, due to his seniority – so he gets the same amount of money as people who haven’t been there so long, but he has to work fewer hours for it. That’s how we think about it where I work.

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      3. fhqwhgads*

        No, Ethan shouldn’t be assigned less work because he gets more vacation.
        If the problem is that Ethan specifically doesn’t get stuff done in a timely manner, but everyone else does, Ethan needs to learn to manage his time better.
        If the problem is that everyone is working at approximately the same pace, but there’s more work than there are working hours for the whole team when accounting for the whole team’s PTO allotment, then the team is understaffed.

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      4. WellRed*

        No! That’s not the answer at all, I really think you need to take a big step back and look at the overall picture here instead of focusing on (and maybe blaming Ethan). If Ethan isn’t doing his job address that, if you need more staff, hire, if you need to have more flexible or longer deadlines, implement them.

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      5. Hillary*

        Generally speaking people get better at their jobs with more experience. Ethan has 8 yeras more experience – in theory he should be faster/more efficient and therefore able to complete the same amount of work in spite of more time off.

        Is this really about his vacation time, or is it about his general performance?

        Reply ↓
    5. Ellis Bell*

      I’m so baffled at the resentment you’re showing of him taking something that’s already his. If you’re at the BEC point that you’re even considering trying to take his benefits off him, (wouldn’t that get you in huge trouble!?) you just need to have a serious conversation about his work; leave his vacation time out of the conversation though! Tell him you need him to meet his deadlines when he’s in the office. When he’s out, surely there’s some expectation of work getting covered.

      Reply ↓
    6. Anono-me*

      Could you please clarify? Are you frustrated that Ethan can’t do in one week what all of the other team members do or are you frustrated because he can’t do all of his work while on vacation? Because I am getting the sense that it might be the latter. (Especially since you seem to think denying Ethan some of his vacation time.)

      If Ethan isn’t working at the same speed as his coworkers, you need to address that with him as an Eathan issue.

      If Ethan isn’t doing all of the work to pre-cover his vacation time, that is something you need to work on as a management staffing problem.

      I also wonder if the other team members being newer might be masking a staffing issue. When I was a newer employee, I was more susceptible to the pressure to ‘go the extra mile’, even when it was a ridiculous expectation. I also only took one week vacations when I was starting out. Maybe it is easier for the newer coworkers to work ahead to cover themselves for one week two times a year than it is for Ethan to work ahead to cover himself for two weeks three times a year. And maybe Ethan thinks that he has vacation time not comp time and is unwilling to play games and pretend otherwise.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        I need advice in managing workload and capacity.

        Ethan’s productivity when he’s at work is average. I worried that lowering his workload wasn’t fair to his peers, but I don’t like the other options either – telling him not to take his earned vacation time, or telling him to work extra hours before or after.

        Maybe I need to think of it like a PT worker, who works less hours and is obviously not going to be able to handle the same workload as a FT worker.

        Reply ↓
        1. Ellis Bell*

          That’s a good way to look at it, but it surely it comes up so much more rarely than someone who is part time? I struggle to see how this could be a frequent issue even with generous leave. How often is he even taking time off? Is this a staffing issue if it can’t be covered by the team? I have to wonder what would happen if another average productivity worker left without notice, or was ill etc. Thinking about it, is it the infrequency that’s the problem? So, you’re all used to a certain workload most of the year, but when it’s time for his annual multi-week trip, the difference to a usual month’s workload is palpable?

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        2. Arrietty*

          Or readjust your definition of full time to account for the amount of leave they can take. In the UK, the minimum amount of annual leave (personal/holiday PTO) is 5.6 weeks, including Bank holidays, so a full time workload can’t contain more than 46.4 weeks worth of work at the absolute maximum (and in the real world, humans also take time off sick).

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        3. Msd*

          The rest of your team will eventually also have more PTO. It’s a bit of an anomaly that only one person on your team has significantly more PTO than others. Usually in larger companies a team has a mix of senior and less senior people so not everyone has the same PTO. I’m with some of the other commenters who are struggling with your focus on PTO. You could have a team member with health problems, etc. you allocate work load based on availability not “everyone gets the same”.

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        4. AcademiaNut*

          That’s probably the best way to think about it. If you’re assigning him the same amount of work as someone who works more hours, you’re holding him to a higher level of work than his peers, and reprimanding him for the same level of work efficiency.

          If you’re expecting him to not take his earned benefits, that’s just wrong – by taking away earned PTO you’re effectively lowering his compensation. And expecting him to work double time to make up for taking a vacation is pretty much the same thing – you’re punishing him for taking his earned benefits.

          What is reasonable to expect – that he will strategize to leave things in good shape for handing over to others when he goes on vacation, that he books vacations, particularly long ones, with a reasonable lead in time (ie, not booking a two week vacation with one day notice), and possibly that he avoids particularly critical times, with the caveat that the definition of critical time can’t be too restrictive.

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        5. lost academic*

          You need to change your idea of workload. Look at it more on a week to week basis, not on an annual basis. You are going to bias your opinion of your staff very unfairly against not just people with more PTO and the ability to use it but also those with medical needs, FMLA, maternity leave, chronic medical conditions, etc, if you are only looking at the workload on a yearly basis. Look at it across a much smaller period of time.

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    7. Friday Hopeful*

      If Ethan is working at the same pace as everyone else, but the deadlines don’t get met becuase he is off (and not because he works slower than everyone else), then missing deadlines means you are shorthanded. It is not an Ethan problem – it is a staffing problem. Ethan’s time off package was earned by him.

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    8. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Step back and look at what is happening when he IS working, not when he is on vacation. Is he equally productive during his working hours as the rest of the team or is there an overall productivity lag.

      If the issue is inefficiency when he is working, then you need to address it with him. If the issue is you are scheduling 52*40 hours worth of work a year and him taking 4 weeks vacation instead of 2 means he is not getting it all done then that is a workload issue and you need to address the system.

      It is fine to have blackout weeks as long as they don’t put a further squeeze on vacation by having everyone trying to cram it in at the same times.

      Lets look a few years down the road when more of your team presumably steps up their vacation allotment. There has to be some slack built in the system or it all fails. One of the issues I had at a former company is they planned all projects around 40 hours per person per week. If everything went perfectly. In reality something always goes wrong and it was unrealistic to complete the work in the allotted time.

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    9. My Brain is Exploding*

      Hmmm. If Ethan and the rest of the team have the same titles, etc. then should the expectation that each of them does x projects/year be the same? And if you give Ethan less work, then when the other team members start getting extra vacation, will they get less work? In many circumstances, you would expect as someone spends more time in a position, they may become more efficient and therefore the extra vacation time would not hinder the number of projects completed. Clearly this is easier to figure out if the metrics are different (hours worked v projects completed). Sounds like some help from people above you in the company would be useful.

      Reply ↓
  13. Holly Gibney*

    I’m at a new job and it’s going very well so far, but I could use some input on a couple things. I’m Autistic (the neurodivergent thread was super interesting this week!) and my job is a front office coordinator position, so although I’m one of only two people working in my area, there’s a fair amount of traffic and I don’t have a door that can close when I need quiet time. (The situation isn’t ideal but so far it’s leaps and bounds better than my last job, which denied me basic accommodations and was just a terrible work environment for lots of reasons.) I haven’t disclosed the Autism and don’t plan to unless I need to ask for accommodations.

    Everyone has been super welcoming and friendly, but there’s one person who just. Talks. So. Much. Even after the conversation naturally wanes, she lingers and then says something else. I’ve tried turning back to my station and seeming busy, that doesn’t work. Pretty much the only two things that have worked are getting up and going somewhere else (and acting like it’s a task that needs doing now) or, after way longer than I’d like, saying “well, I should probably get back to work.” I could say this sooner, but I don’t want to seem standoffish since I’m so new. But I’m dying inside. Is there anything else I can do to shorten these chats without outright saying “hey, I’m Autistic/not a chatter, I like talking but not that much”?

    Second thing is, there seems to be a bit of a “team spirit” vibe here, e.g. at the staff meeting the other day one of them was like “let’s all wear orange on the day before halloween!” and I think they maybe wear costumes on 10/31 (I will not. Maybe I’ll wear all black or something as a gesture?), and conversation turned to “office fun” like a Thanksgiving potluck and/or a holiday door decorating contest. I’m… not someone who enjoys things like this. I think the move is to do just enough that I don’t seem like a Scrooge, but don’t engage way more than I want to? I’m friendly and cheerful at work, so I don’t think they’d be offended if I didn’t lean into the “office fun” things. But just wanted to check with others since I’ve never been in an office that’s especially enthusiastic about stuff like this before.

    Reply ↓
    1. Angstrom*

      On the office fun stuff, you can be supportive — “ You all look great!” — without fully participating. If you smile and show that you enjoy their silliness and don’t look down on it, that should be enough.

      Reply ↓
      1. Paint N Drip*

        I agree. I’d recommend showing face at some events, and participating where it’s comfortable (for instance, I like to bring a dish to a potluck but I usually don’t hang out too long and I definitely don’t plan to eat the food)
        You’re not REQUIRED to engage in the social stuff at offices, and I fully empathize with you because I can’t handle a lot of that, but if you are aloof and don’t engage at all your experience at the office may suffer. Many coworkers forge bonds in a social way versus a teammate way, and those bonds are important!

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    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      For your first problem, the chatter, I’d probably stick with the going somewhere else or saying “I should probably get back to work,” but doing so in a warm and kind way. “Yeah, that show sounds really interesting! Maybe I’ll check it out sometime. Anyway, I should probably get back to work now. See you around!” And say it with a smile.

      For the “team spirit” thing, I agree that your best bet is to just do enough to show willing and be warm and receptive to other people’s enthusiasm. “Yeah, I did all black instead–I’m not really a costume person myself. But your Elsa costume looks awesome! Is that wig heavy?” “Oh, I brought soda. I figured SOMEONE needed to bring that. Excuse me–I want to go grab some of that buffalo chicken dip before it’s gone!”

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    3. birder in the backyard*

      Noise cancelling earbuds. Don’t even put on music. Heck, you don’t even need to turn them on.

      Just the act of putting them in signals that you’re done chatting and getting back to work. You can even say something like, “i’m getting back to work now” or “I’m going to put on my earbuds so I can concentrate.” If they start chatting with you even though you have earbuds in, pretend you cannot hear them if it is just chit chat and not work-related.

      Basically, you’re training your co-worker when you are open to chit chat (like 10-15 minutes in the morning, after lunch, and heading out) but other than that, you don’t really chat.

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    4. c-*

      I think, for your chatterbox coworker, as long as you are warm when you enforce your boundary, no one will hold it against you. I’m not exactly neurotypical, and what I do when I need to get stuff done and the other person won’t shut up is this:
      1. Close the conversation: It’s been nice talking to you! I need to return to this, though. (Say warmly)
      2. Physically turn back to your task and proceed to ignore the person. If they keep talking, they get a distracted hmm and nothing more.
      3. Resist impulse to respond until they go away.
      4. Repeat as needed.

      No one has taken offense to this tactic yet, and if they did, they would be the ones considered rude, not me.

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    5. Goddess47*

      For the chatterer, have something at hand that you can point to and use variations of being blunt with, “I have to cut you off but I’m learning so many things and some of them take me longer because I’m still getting used to it. I need time to make sure I get it right. Thanks for understanding!” Don’t be ‘sorry’ and do be cheerful, then turn to your work. If you can wear headphones, put them on and turn back to your work.

      Chatterers need bluntness, when I suspect you are trying to be nice. And if you look around carefully, there will be others who are avoiding that same person. It’s not just you, but you’re the new person and hasn’t drawn a firm enough boundary yet.

      Good luck!

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    6. learnedthehardway*

      With the chatty coworker, you can say, “I can’t keep talking with you now – I have to get X work done. I’m on a deadline!” Then turn around and ignore her and do your work. Rinse, repeat as necessary. She should get the message after a few times.

      If that doesn’t work, tell your manager you’re doing this, but that coworker still keeps hanging around and talking. It’s distracting, and having politely told her to leave, you now need your manager to step in.

      WRT participating – if this is the office culture – I would do so to the extent that you don’t have to make a huge effort. Eg. wear an orange shirt on orange shirt day, maybe wear a funny hat or set of bug antenna for Hallowe’en, or an ugly Christmas sweater for the holidays. Just participate in a low key kind of way. You don’t have to go all out, but giving a nod to the thing the team does is probably a good thing.

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    7. Ceanothus*

      I had issues like this when I worked in an office, my sympathies!

      For holiday spirit things, you can cover 90% of the ground by vocally appreciating their effort:
      – What a beautiful/fun/great costume!
      – Oh it smells delicious! (For potlucks, I would also sign up for a low effort item. Cost tbd by my relative income in the office)
      – It’s so festive in here!

      For talkers… this is not a personal strength. For more socially deft chatty people, I say “I’m trying to get through X today/this week and can only chat for a minute” or “I’m run off my feet today! Can we catch up later?” but with one particularly intrusive person, I got a coworker to agree that I could set 10 minute meetings on her calendar with no notice and then tell the chatter “Sorry, I have an 11:00 with Jane, she’s helping me out with , we’ll have to talk later!” and then I would go work from Jane’s cube until the chatter left the area around my desk. Another coworker addressed this by never stopping typing during the chatting, and occasionally punctuating it by “Great! Did you need something from me?” and she has been promoted repeatedly.

      (Probably I could have talked to my supervisor about the excessive chatting but during most of this period I either didn’t have a supervisor or the supervisor was so overwhelmed by other projects that they rarely came to my 1:1s or staff meetings. We didn’t have much face time.)

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    8. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      As many said here, just tell the chatterer that you need to get back to work.

      I’m not much of a chatterer in general, but because I don’t get to interact with some of my coworkers all that often (they are in a larger open cube space and I’m in a cube by myself in another space) I have caught myself feeling like there’s no easy way to exit from a conversation and go back to my cube; I have definitely become a chatterer when that has happened. Since I’ve caught myself doing it, I’m better about saying *I* need to get back to work, but before, when I didn’t realize what was happening, when someone said they needed to get back to work/etc., hearing that was a relief.

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    9. Madeleine Matilda*

      It’s OK to say “well, I should probably get back to work.” sooner than you are. Give the person a few minutes and then tell them you need to get back to work. You could also be more direct and say “I need to get back to work now.”

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    10. Ellis Bell*

      1) Headphones and earbuds.
      2) Find a stock phrase that signals decoupling like “That was brilliant; well, anyway, back to work!” “I’m so busy but I’ll have to hear more about that another time”.
      3) Just say ” I’m getting back to work” or “So much to learn, I’ll have to get back to it” or “well, I’m getting back to these reports,” sooner rather than later.
      4) Glue your eyes to the screen when you need to start getting back to work and just go “hmm?” and “what?” and “Oh sorry, I was concentrating” if she interrupts.
      5) If you’re worried about being aloof, try to counterpoint the times when you’re visibly busy by carving out deliberate time to be warm and interested. Ask questions that show you were interested earlier, just busy. Maybe at the start of end of the day? “So, you’re a skier, what happened next after you broke your leg?”
      6) I’m confused why if you’ve found something that works (moving away) you don’t embrace that? Have a pile of photocopying or a AFK to do list for the next time you need to step away. Get coffee. (If you were British, you’d say “Oh, I’m going to put the kettle on”, offer her and the nearest colleague a cup of tea, set the mugs down on their desks to much gratitude and thanks within five minutes, while you get the chance to say “Well, no rest for the wicked, let’s see if this is enough caffeine for me to hit a 1pm deadline”)

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    11. Paint N Drip*

      re chatty coworker – I don’t have any foolproof lines, but just wanted to share a mindset thing. There is typically someone (or multiple someones) in an office who like to talk more than others, or perhaps is so chatty that it’s awkward, or is perhaps notably awkward in other ways – the people who have been working there before you are well aware of that coworker. If you end up being a little awkward in trying to disengage with chatty coworker, just know that others aren’t going to immediately think “Holly is sooo awkward and cold” (what my anxiety says will happen) but likely think ‘oh Chatty has cornered Holly, sheesh glad it’s not me’ (ie: identify with you, not blame or other you)

      Reply ↓
  14. HugeTractsofLand*

    I’ve been looking at state government jobs where the hourly pay rates are linked to a pre-established wage table. In your experience, is it possible for someone to negotiate a higher salary than the pre-established rate for a government job? I did that successfully for my current job (they had an hourly rate based on their table, I named an annual salary number that amounted to more, they said yes), but I don’t know if state governments are more rigid.

    Reply ↓
    1. UnCivilServant*

      I am a manager at a state agency – for us, the answer is “on paper yes, in practicality, no”.

      The steps required for a manager to get a new hire above starting rate are many, and the culture is set up against approving it.

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      1. A large cage of birds*

        Yeah, I’ve worked for the state in a few positions. It’s likely not going to budge unless the job description changes.

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        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          This! On the other hand, my state has wage transparency for all positions, good benefits (not as good as in the past, but much better than my last, private sector job), work-life balance, hybrid or remote schedules, and the opportunity for merit bonuses each year. (You do have to be a high performer, and your manager has to make a case for it.)

          Reply ↓
          1. HugeTractsofLand*

            This is helpful to know, thanks! Others have mentioned benefits other than salary, and I especially love the possibility of merit bonuses (I used to have those at my old job, and losing them was a bit demotivating).

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    2. Joielle*

      I’ve worked in state government for over a decade and my experience is that you can, but it has to be based on the factors that go into the placement on the table. For example, if you have an advanced degree that’s not required for the position, you could argue that they should add it to your years of experience to get you to the next pay band. They can potentially redo the calculation with different numbers if you advocate for that, but they can’t just decide to move you up with no justification.

      Reply ↓
    3. spcepickle*

      I work and hire for the state of Washington. Our published ranges are 100% firm. You can negotiate within the range (we have steps A-M each a 2.5% bump in salary). But there is no way you will get paid outside the range posted for the job. I have offered jobs to two different candidates who told me the highest step in the range is too low for them, I tell them that is the best I can do and in both cases they ended up withdrawing from candidacy. I also will not give the very top of the range for anyone new to state employment. I need you to come in and spend a year with us to make sure it all works out.

      This is all very dependent on if the state position is covered by a union. That is normally stated in the job posting and if it is you can either request or google the union agreement. It will layout exactly how the pay ranges work and how you move through them (we are 2 steps a year every year on your anniversary till you hit the top).

      Also the top of the range we post is the very top you will make in that position unless (until?) the union contract is renegotiated and approved by the state legislators. Which happens for us every two years and right now is not keeping up with inflation.

      All that said – I love working for the state – my work life balance is WAY better then when I worked private, right now we have huge growth potential, I am vested in an old school guaranteed pension, our health insurance is pretty good, and our time off is great.

      Reply ↓
      1. Joielle*

        Yeah, chiming in again to agree with this. In my comment above I was talking about negotiating within the established range – absolutely can’t go above the top of the range without the job being reclassified as a higher title and reposted/re-do interviews/etc. But if they give you an offer that’s lower than you want, you might be able to negotiate for a higher salary within the range if there’s a compelling reason.

        Reply ↓
      2. California State Worker*

        This is accurate to my experience. I came on as high on the steps for my position as they typically go for outside hires (California) based on experience and a thoughtful supervisor — she pressured HR to consider my experience favorably — and being considered within those steps is pretty common. I still had like 30% of the salary band as headroom, which I stepped into over the next five years.

        (Also our union negotiated raises in there, so I don’t recall the specifics.)

        Reply ↓
      3. HugeTractsofLand*

        Thank you for your answer, this is really helpful to know (I wouldn’t have thought to look for the union agreement). If I can ask a follow-up question, have you found that there are opportunities to move up to higher paying positions within goverment org, or is it fairly stagnant? I’m not expecting to advance within a year, but it would reduce the sting of a pay cut if I knew I could move up in the future.

        Reply ↓
        1. spcepickle*

          If you come work my corner of Washington yes! The government was late to the 2008 economic downturn (like did not effect us till 2010 – 2012) and when it did hit, it was hiring freezes. So there is nobody in the 8 – 16 year experience range. This means that as people retire those who are replacing them have WAY less experience then the generation before. I got 3 promotions in 7 years and have a management position that most people retire from, while I am looking at least 15 more working years.
          I have promoted 4 secretaries into really good growth tracks in the last 5 year, I also almost completely turned over my entry level team about every 3 years.
          Some of the growth in the future will depend on where you live and what kind of government you have. Biden for better or worse invest billions of dollars into what my team does, so we saw crazy growth especially coming out of COVID. Washington state is getting a new governor and the outcome of the presidential election will effect government spending. So my two year plan is a little up in the air right now.
          All that said – I think the government experience opens up doors back to the private sector and you can bounce between government agencies. Here all the state agencies, several of the big cities, and most of the counties all share a retirement plan, so you can bounce between them without losing any benefits and some of the time they will honor each others seniority – so you get to bring some of your built up vacation time.

          Reply ↓
      4. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

        I work in the state of Washington and I loooooove the pay transparency that comes with jobs. Yes, it sucks I won’t ever make, like, Big Tech Money, but I feel a million times better as a human knowing what my raises are going to be and being protected by a union.

        Reply ↓
    4. Grits McGee*

      I have a friend in federal government who was able to negotiate a step increase within a pay band. He was only able to do this because he was working another federal job for a year while waiting for his background check to come through, so he was able to argue that he had gained a year of experience since the job offer had initially been made.

      In my experience though, negotiation for government jobs tends to be a go/no-go at the agency or program level, rather than based on the qualifications or negotiation skills of an individual. I would try to find out if anyone has ever successfully negotiated for more money for the particular jobs or programs you’re interested in. If you can’t find any success stories, it’s probably not going to happen.

      Reply ↓
    5. FricketyFrack*

      Government is a lot more rigid, but that doesn’t necessarily mean there’s zero flexibility. In my experience, most jobs will have the full salary range and a smaller hiring range that usually runs from the minimum to 25-50% of the maximum. It’s much easier to negotiate within the hiring range. You’re pretty much never going to get over the max for the position, though, unless it’s an unusually difficult position to fill. If the range doesn’t go high enough for you to accept the job, I’d skip applying (especially when government can take 50 years to hire in the first place).

      Reply ↓
    6. The Dude Abides*

      If it is a union position, no.

      If it is non-union, maybe, but note that starting higher on the scale for that job means you will cap out sooner if you stay in that role.

      Reply ↓
    7. Quercus*

      State governments are usually pretty rigid and strapped for money anyway. So I’m not optimistic. And in my experience, if they really want you, it’s more likely to get reclassified into a different table than to get an exception made. So, if Llama Groomer I is $15-24/hr, getting $30/hr as a Llama Groomer I is not very likely, but you might be able to get the agency to hire you as a Llama Health Specialist II, which the table says is $22-31/hr. Or even point out that your previous experience in Llama care can justify you starting at Llama Groomer II at a higher rate.

      Reply ↓
    8. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      It depends on the state and the agency.

      In California, yes, it is possible. It’s called “hiring above minimum” aka “HAM.” You have to know how to and be willing to play the game to get a HAM. Some agencies absolutely will not. Others, maybe, depending on the role and difficulty recruiting. In the current budget environment, IDK.

      Are you in California?

      Reply ↓
      1. HugeTractsofLand*

        I’m not, unfortunately, but I’m in a less populous state that might have fewer qualified candidates for open roles. From comments here, it sounds like the best I can expect is probably top of the stated range. Thanks anyway!

        Reply ↓
    2. The Prettiest Curse*

      We should have an occasional “work-related news stories” thread on Fridays.

      A woman in the UK just had an application letter she sent by mail for her dream job 48 years ago returned to her with a note saying it had been stuck down the back of a drawer in the post office all this time. She always thought they had ghosted her! (The application was to be a motorcycle stunt rider.)

      Reply ↓
      2. Industry Behemoth*

        Some 30 years ago, I worked at a Washington DC office where we maintained a stack of USPS mail tubs, for big stacks of outgoing mail.

        One day I pulled out the top tub, and stuck in the next one was a 10×15 mailer addressed to the US Office of Personnel Management. I’m pretty sure it was a job application, or materials for a pre-employment background check.

        Back then, USPS offices in the District of Columbia had a horrible reputation. Nobody in the MDV metro area mailed anything important from DC if they could avoid it.

        Reply ↓
    3. Panicked*

      My nosy self wants to know what food caused it. We’ve had SO many bad potluck stories here, but I think sending 46 people to the hospital tops them all.

      Reply ↓
      1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

        Several news outlets have linked it to pancit, a Filipino noodle dish that contains chicken. Chicken is a common offender when it comes to food borne illness.

        Reply ↓
    4. Paint N Drip*

      After I heard how my boss prepares lasagna (puts it all together the way nonna would, then leaves it on the counter until time to bake it – whether that’s in an hour or tomorrow) I will never doubt any of these stories! Can’t trust other people’s kitchen skills!!!

      Reply ↓
  16. Hello*

    I feel so guilty. I’ve been at my job for9 months. It is a one in a million job. The “fun” benefits are out of this world amazing. The “serious“ benefits such as medical premiums, etc are so expensive or unrealistic. (Yes we’ve looked into alternatives solutions) They have seriously put a dent in our family budget. I’ve decided to switch jobs. Financially my family can’t afford it. I haven’t even been here a year. How do I get over the guilt of leaving an otherwise perfect dream job.

    Reply ↓
    1. Decidedly Me*

      Family first and your family can’t take the hit. Don’t feel guilty for doing what’s right for you and your family. The point of a job is to be able to financially afford things :)

      Reply ↓
    2. ThatGirl*

      My first thought is, do you have any way to ask for a raise? Whether it’s based on your own contributions so far or just realizing that the pay is not where it should be for your industry/experience level/cost of living in the area?

      If that’s not an option, then it’s not really a dream job. It’s not perfect if it doesn’t pay you enough to live on and afford medical/dental/etc coverage. I understand feeling guilty about it but you have to do what’s best for you and your family.

      Reply ↓
    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      The fact that management thinks they can rope people in with fun benefits, but screw them over on the serious benefits, should be a wakeup call. Somebody made a conscious choice to spend funds this way, and they are fully aware of the effects it is having. Sounds to me like they want to hire early-career people who will work their butts off and enjoy the fun benefits, but won’t have much need for serious medical care.

      It’s not a dream job if the management is treating their employees like lab rats pressing levers to get food pellets.

      Reply ↓
    4. Fish out of water*

      I think you need to convince yourself of two things. The first is something Alison says here all the time: If you need something that your job isn’t providing you, you don’t owe it to your job to stay.

      The other thing to convince yourself of—and I mean *make yourself believe that it is true*—is everything you wrote down in this post, especially that you are taking care of your family by leaving this job. Taking care of your family comes first over a job, always, every time. No guilt!

      Sorrow, sure. It’s not fair. This job should have provided you with what you need; every job should, and I’m sorry you have to leave it. But you need to be able to meet your needs and your family’s needs. The whole reason we have jobs is to provide us with the means to support ourselves and our families. Put it on a post-it on your bathroom mirror or say it to yourself when it matters: Taking care of yourself and your family is nothing to feel guilty about.

      Reply ↓
    5. Hello*

      Hi everyone. Thank you all for your feedback. I work for a non profit for a cause near and dear to me. Sadly I think one of the ways the company budgets for the cause is to cut corners with employee benefits. There isn’t much wiggle room for a raise. :-(.

      Reply ↓
      1. Reba*

        Oh, that helps me make sense of the guilty feeling. (at first I was like guilt??? for when a job doesn’t compensate you enough?)

        There are many past letters here about feeling badly when leaving a job, if you search for “guilt” and “leaving” you will find them!

        I think you are smart to be looking. Once you get an offer you can consider if asking your current boss if they can counteroffer and maybe keep you…

        Reply ↓
      2. Paint N Drip*

        But babe it is not a dream job if you can’t afford to work there! Your family needs to be your first non-profit priority

        Reply ↓
    6. ecnaseener*

      I understand feeling bummed about having to give up all the good parts, but there’s nothing to feel guilty about! The “dream job” is failing to meet its number one function, paying you enough. That must be hugely disappointing, but you didn’t create this situation and you can’t solve it (unless you can get a raise that would make it feasible to stay).

      Reply ↓
    7. Ostrich Herder*

      I feel like mental reframing might be in order here. This isn’t a dream job! They’re giving you bread and circuses so you’ll be distracted from the fact that you’re not making a living wage. My guess is the “fun” benefits are MUCH cheaper to provide than the actual concrete benefits that would make the job feasible to stay in. YOU are paying for those fun benefits by covering their share of your real benefits.

      This job sounds like the work equivalent of that friend that always organizes AMAZING nights out but also somehow manages to not pay their portion of the bill. That person isn’t your friend, really, and you tend to realize that the next morning. This job isn’t your dream, really, and it’ll be easier to see that from a distance.

      Reply ↓
    9. Ellis Bell*

      You can’t pay the bills with fun! I am also a massive soft touch for “fun jobs” and “dream jobs” and they don’t have to pay me life-changing amounts, but do they need to keep my head above water? Yes, yes, they do. Unfortunately a lot of fun, passion and dream jobs try to get away with paying you in exposure, pizza, patronising pats on the back and other things that will not keep a diverse staff of different backgrounds in the mission. They’ll end up with a bunch of trust fund kids who want to talk about “their important work” at dinner parties. You are not the person who decided to make this job exclusionary.

      Reply ↓
    10. Friday Hopeful*

      Make a list of “must haves” and “nice to haves” in your job. Then put a check next to the things this job does have, on both lists. If it checks off a lot of “nice to haves” but not the “must haves” then find something better.

      Reply ↓
  17. Manders*

    First I want to say that I absolutely love my job. I work as a lab scientist at a public university. This type of job has busy and less-busy times. I’m currently in an extended not-busy time, with no specific research that needs to be done. I have a few things that need my attention – cleaning our lab space, cleaning my office, and working on a manuscript – but I don’t feel motivated to do any of them. Any advice on how I can motivate myself? I tend to be one of those people who is super-efficient when really, really busy, and much less so when I have too much downtime.

    Reply ↓
    1. LongTime Reader*

      I hear you. I’m consistently surprised when I get more done than I thought I could during busy times. But when my time has more freedom, nothing seems to get done.

      I would set up parameters for the work that would cause you to feel busy or responsible for a deadline. Things like:

      1. Work really hard on something for 30 minutes. (This often leads to more focused work for longer)
      2. Setting deadlines for tasks. “I must clean the lab by today at 2 pm”
      3. Starting the hard things first. Work on the manuscript for 20 minutes in the morning with a coffee/snack/something motivating break afterward.
      4. Write it down/put it on a schedule. Sure you may not follow it 100% but something about making it ‘official’ helps me focus.
      5. To-do lists that you check off – do those motivate you?

      Reply ↓
      1. LongTime Reader*

        Also, this is something I’m doing today to get boring paperwork done.

        Build in a reward.

        I’m using AskAManager as my treat every time I finish entering some boring paperwork. Finish a chunk of it, get to read another letter. Finish the letter, back to the paperwork.

        Reply ↓
    2. Jen*

      When I have times like that at work (very rare), I use timers. Work as fast as I can, then possibly take a break, or possibly just keep rolling into the next task. I’m not sure all the reasons why it works, but it definitely helps. The less motivated I feel, the shorter the timer. The timer helps me get started (“It’s just 15 minutes”) and creates a sese of urgency, and then I get into the swing of things and keep going.

      Reply ↓
    3. Charlotte Lucas*

      Keep in mind that it’s OK to just go slower sometimes. Think of it as recovery from the busy times. (And it’s good for your mind to be able to wander a bit, as that can help you with things like working on a manuscript.)

      Reply ↓
      1. Kuleta*

        Yes. I ended up making a late-career change from a huge firm to a small one, and plan to retire in < 5 years.

        I treat the simpler, quieter pace as my reward for the 20+ years I was run ragged in huge firms.

        Reply ↓
    4. Ceanothus*

      I try to set myself up for doing tasks I don’t like (often with five minutes of dedicated work) and then sort of trying to ambush myself. “We’re all ready to go, let’s see how much of this pile we can get through in 15 minutes!”

      Reply ↓
      1. Paint N Drip*

        This is such a weird hack and I love it!! I also do better with less time to “push back” or think too hard about process, just GO

        Reply ↓
    5. epicdemiologist*

      Is it feasible to listen to music, maybe on headphones? Particularly for tasks that don’t require a lot of intellectual input (like cleaning), a good playlist can help.

      Reply ↓
    7. DefinitiveAnn*

      I use my calendar to plan my day. If you do something similar, block off time on your calendar for that task and just do it. It doesn’t need to be long, and it can be real specific. If “clean the lab” is too general, “Inventory the ultra-cold” or “clean and organize bench 1” could be more rewarding.

      Reply ↓
  18. It is friday!*

    In my dreams I would be a professional photographer. I have a fulfilling but unrelated 9-5 job but have made a name for myself locally in photography (photo shoots, selling prints at local fairs, teaching classes). I have recently branched out selling on some e-commerce sites. I like these sites as for a small fee they take care of the “business side” of things. I’m also reaching out/ researching other business avenues. Can anyone recommend a website where I can make a portfolio of my work for these avenues but also link it to these e-commerce sites?

    Reply ↓
  19. Lady Engineer*

    I’m going to a happy hour next week for all engineers at my company, and I’m going to be one of 2 women. Out of 50 people. Is it worth casually pointing that out at the event??? Or maybe mentioning it to my (very chill, male) manager? In general at this company nobody’s ever been openly sexist to me but it’s hard to ignore the numbers…

    Reply ↓
    1. Angstrom*

      Sounds like it’s worth starting a discussion with your manager about hiring practices — where they advertise, where they recruit, do they de-identify resumes, etc.

      Reply ↓
    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      I do think it’s worth pointing out. “Hey Tom, I’m going to the engineers’ happy hour next week and saw that there’s only going to be one other woman there out of 50 people. It really made me think: I’d love to know what our company is doing to increase diversity in hiring for engineering roles. Do you know anything about that, or know who I could talk to if I want to find out more?”

      Reply ↓
    3. spcepickle*

      High five to other lady engineers! I am an engineer, who manages heavy construction – there are never lines in the lady’s restroom when I go to events.
      I personally find value in calling it out. I try to pair it with practical solutions about how we can make the workplace more inviting for women.
      My current crusade is calling out people when they default engineer or contractor to the male gender. Well when we bring on the contractor next year HE will do X. I might respond with yes the contract may do that but SHE may also take this approach.
      I have also been on a push to try and get women’s cut safety gear. I am fighting with our brand standard people right now – because women’s safety vests have an X of reflective on the back so we can’t put our logo in the middle of the back, so we can’t have women’s cut vests – REALLY?!?!
      Lastly I try to make myself as visible as possible. Need someone at a career day in schools or career fair at the university I am in! I have been interviewed by the local news twice about our projects.
      I have also found it important to find my other lady engineers. For me this means a few times a year I have a ladies who lead lunch. Which is really the 5 of us who are engineering managers in my company get together for Mexican food and gossip. I also belong to one of the local chapters of the women’s professional groups.

      With all that said I am cautious in what I spend my time, effort, and work capital on – because you can only slam yourself into the same wall so many times before you walk away bruised and the wall is still standing. So yes to calling out the issues, but only if in the moment you have the capacity to do so. Because if you burn out well we have even less women engineers out there.

      Reply ↓
    4. tgif, baby*

      Solidarity! My last company, we were two scientists and two (part-time) female engineers. Until we got to over 150 engineers.

      Reply ↓
  20. A large cage of birds*

    This is firmly a “stay in my lane” situation, and I plan on ignoring it, but I wanted to see if I’m off base for finding it weird. We’re a remote office, so a lot of virtual meetings. Occasionally we have trainings, either for our team (llama grooming) or larger department (grooming) which are recorded. For the larger department meetings the VP of grooming has asked that all cameras be on. One person, Jane, has balked at this saying that she doesn’t want to be recorded. It’s usually powerpoint slides in trainings, and in the larger department meetings there are like 50 people, so her likelihood of being recorded is pretty low. I don’t know what the outcome was, because I don’t care whether her camera is on or not.

    Also we hold virtual office hours where internal clients can come ask us questions. When she’s in these, she changes her name from “Jane Smith” to “Jane Grooming” and is the only person I’ve seen do this. People can easily find her in the directory if they wanted to. (Her name is more distinctive than Jane and her name appears in our system like everybody else’s does.)

    Is this weird? Is there a reason why someone would try to hide like this? (Again, I’m her peer and this doesn’t affect me, it jus seems weird)

    Reply ↓
    1. ThatGirl*

      It does seem a bit weird, but she may have deeply personal reasons, ranging from “very private slightly odd person” to “afraid of a stalker finding her”.

      Reply ↓
    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Some people are very highly conscious of their privacy. Just by nature, past job experience with nosy clients, an identity theft incident, social media stalking, domestic violence, estranged from family, etc.

      Also, some people have a hard time participating in video like this because they are distracted by the show-back window of their own face. They may also be concerned about what the company is going to do with these recordings in the future – will somebody steal it and deep-fake her?

      Reply ↓
    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      The name change doesn’t seem weird to me. It’s one more layer between creepy stalkers and yourself (having to look up Jane in the directory) and it’s actually a little helpful to know who has what background, shows shes answering questions related to that area.

      Reply ↓
    4. Anti-recording*

      It doesn’t seem weird to me at all. I very much hate being photographed and recorded and if I’m in a large Zoom meeting, I will 100% turn off my video and not comment if it’s being recorded. I don’t change my name b/c they’re all internal but I have changed my name for external or non work related Zooms. I don’t like being recorded because I don’t know how the data is being used/stored or if it will be shared without my permission.

      I also try to be very protective of my privacy (online and irl) and I hate the normalization of AI, data mining, recording (both meetings and things like Ring cameras, street surveillance, drones, etc.).

      Reply ↓
      1. also anti recording*

        Yes to all of this. Even if it’s an “internal”recording, the data is still on Zoom or wherever.

        When I’m in recordings of webinars we run, I change my name to our department name and firstname last initial on external meetings.

        Reply ↓
      2. Sparkles McFadden*

        I am with you on all of this. I literally stopped going to some work functions because one guy would insist on recording the whole time and posting photos and video on social media, tagging us all. I asked him to stop and he refused, saying he wasn’t doing anything wrong because he wasn’t trying to record me, specifically. He said “I can’t help it if you happen to be in my shots.”

        I just want to add that, if I am in an in-person meeting with fifty people, the people who don’t know me personally won’t know who I am. They might not even notice me at all. But if I am on a video meeting with 50 people, and I am required to have my camera on, there I am, with my name right under my video feed, and creepy people treat this like it’s yet another dating site.

        Jane is just being sensible. She just wants to avoid things like having some guy she barely knows sending messages like “I liked it better when your hair was longer.”

        Reply ↓
    5. I treated you like a son*

      A little weird, maybe – but harmless weird. And if Jane asked for this and the bosses agreed, good on her for self advocacy.

      And also your instincts are right – this is for you to ignore

      Reply ↓
      1. also anti recording*

        There’s also a movement that cameras on edicts are bad for accessibility and inclusion which can help anyone who is trying to advocate against them.

        Reply ↓
        1. Unkempt Flatware*

          Good. Because there is never a time in an in-person meeting where I worry someone is starting at me or watching me without my knowledge. I’ve never had someone think they need to say, “I saw that you made a minor twitch in your eyes when Jill was speaking” or whatever. I never worry someone has pinned my face to the screen in person. I never have to see myself looking slack-jawed and be preoccupied with holding my face right.

          Reply ↓
        2. A large cage of birds*

          I agree! I’m in no position to make these kinds of choices but that’s not something I would require people to do.

          Reply ↓
    7. Someone Online*

      I distinctly remember being on a webinar where someone had a religious accommodation against having his camera on during the presentation. Something about not capturing images of people. I hadn’t heard of that particular thing before, but I can’t imagine he is the only one in the world.

      Reply ↓
  21. Anon for this*

    Related to yesterday’s post about work tips for neurodivergent people, do any ND folks have tips and tricks for job searching, interviewing, and networking? Or for changing fields? Or freelancing?

    I’m autistic, and while I know how to write cover letters and interview (thanks to AAM’s great advice!), the whole process remains bewildering and draining. I’m sure NT people also feel this way, but maybe not to the extent that I feel it. I don’t really understand what networking is. An example—I only recently realized that people go to conferences to network. I was going for the panels. I took immaculate notes and never spoke to a single person! Oops.

    Reply ↓
    1. Joielle*

      Networking is just making friends in your industry! Once I started thinking about it like that, it got a lot easier. You make friends because it’s fun, and then when you’re hiring or looking for a new job, you have friends in the industry who can help.

      Reply ↓
      1. MsM*

        It’s also just good, low-stakes practice for having conversations with people. You say hi, you find out what they do, you get to tell them a bit about what you do, hopefully you find some stuff in common, maybe you exchange contact information, and then you move on to see who else you can meet.

        Reply ↓
      2. Generic Name*

        This! I still have to remind myself that instead of trying to get to know certain higher up people in my company solely because of their org chart position, I can focus on talking to people I actually enjoy talking to.

        Reply ↓
        1. The Prettiest Curse*

          Also, one useful thing about networking at conferences is that you have ready-made topics of conversation. You can ask people:
          – what they thought about a presentation.
          – whether they come to this conference every year or if this is their first time.
          – what other conferences they’ve been to (and if those conferences were worth attending.)
          – what their take is on current hot topics in your industry.
          – if they’re working on any interesting projects at the moment.
          – if the conference has themed tracks or a poster session, you can ask which track they’re doing or which posters they found interesting.
          – if speakers are sticking around for the networking session, you can talk to them! Ask them a question or tell them that you enjoyed their talk.

          I am not a great networker by any means, but chatting to people at events isn’t too difficult once you land on the right conversation topics.

          Reply ↓
    2. Tio*

      For interviewing, one thing that helped a friend was take a few main points/stories/highlights from your working time that you want to talk about and write them out. Then make bullet points under them that show specific things the story is good for – like “Shows good organization” “shows good customer service” “shows independence and research abilities” etc. Have a few for each mini story and then when they ask you about, for example, tell us about how you handle organization you can have that ready to go and reference it easily. It’s much easier to do this before the interview starts than try and parse it during. (Although tbh I think this is a nice trick regardless of ND or not)

      Reply ↓
  22. madhatter360*

    My job has brought in some part time temps to help out specific employees with tasks. Although I don’t have a temp I’ve been made the point person for communication (giving a tour, letting them know when we’re off for holidays or off site days).
    The issue is at lunch. Most of the temps I have no idea what they do. One guy follows the woman he works with to the break room and sits with us as we eat. He doesn’t bring a lunch or participate in the conversation (though he’ll laugh at a joke or funny comment). Others have asked me to tell him to go to wherever the other temps are but I’ve refused so far. As much as I’m also put off by him he hasn’t done anything wrong, he’s only here until December, and frankly telling someone they can’t sit with us feels really mean.
    I also suspect part of the reason people are annoyed is because he (and all the temps) show a lack of initiative and need a lot of micromanaging (I’ve told the temps directly and their boss at the temp agency that this is a problem that needs to be worked on).
    I guess I’m wondering if there’s any validity to asking this a guy to go away at lunch or if I should stick to my guns about not saying anything. Is there anything else I can say to my coworkers beyond “it annoys me too but he’s not doing anything wrong”? I’m just not sure how much of this is a valid concern and how much is BEC

    Reply ↓
    1. FashionablyEvil*

      If they need time at lunch to vent, they need to find a private place for that. Your instinct that asking him to go away would just be mean is spot on. (Also, how embarrassing and demotivating that would be for him! Certainly not going to boost his performance.)

      Reply ↓
    2. dude, who moved my cheese?*

      Yes, your instinct is right- you can’t ask a temp to stop sitting with your group in the break room and go sit with all the other temps instead. If it was just you and him, it would be reasonable to say, “I want some alone time- do you mind if I sit by myself?” But it’s not cool to exclude him as a group.

      Btw have you tried inviting him to participate more in the conversation? Asked him any questions? Does anyone say “Hi, Joe, how’s your day going?”

      Reply ↓
    3. Cordelia*

      Telling someone they can’t sit with you doesn’t just “feel” really mean, it is really mean. And why can’t they sit with you? Why are people annoyed? Your team sounds pretty horrible tbh. Like high school, where the in-crowd gets to decide who is cool enough to sit with them.

      Reply ↓
    4. BlueFrenchHorn*

      It would be really shitty and uncalled for to ask him to leave. I’m surprised you’re even considering it. Ignore what your coworkers say, be kind to a new person who won’t be around for long anyway. This really isn’t even a question.

      Reply ↓
  23. Andi*

    I recently gave a training to another team at work on a topic I’m knowledgeable about that impacts their work. The team supervisors asked me specifically to do it, and have each year for a few years. I’m happy to do it — it’s very enjoyable for me actually — but it takes a fair bit of preparation. I’ve got handouts and flow charts to explain complex processes. And it’s not actually part of my job description.

    As a trainer it’s my job to keep the audience engaged. I understand and expect some fidgeting, yawning, and surreptitious phone usage. I give breaks, make jokes, and make the session participatory and engaging. At the beginning, I invite people to step out for calls and conversations as I’ve had people openly have conversations while I’m speaking.

    But what about people who come in with no intention to engage with the session? At the most recent training, one person got out their laptop and was typing away right next to me, and another got out their phone immediately and was staring down at it in between leaving the room for 10 minutes at a time, multiple times. I hadn’t encountered this level of visible disengagement before so I made a point to call on people when I posed questions. We were only about 15 people in a conference room and their supervisor was present.

    What would you have done?

    Reply ↓
    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I don’t have a solution but I’ve noticed this shift as well. I think during fully remote meetings, everyone got used to splitting attention and multitasking during zoom meetings. Now that it’s back in person I do see way more people just working away on their laptop not even looking up periodically during meetings.

      Reply ↓
      1. Busy Middle Manager*

        Yes. Saw this more and more in corporate America. People would complain about too many meetings and meetings taking too long but one main reason they took so long was that no one was paying attention/engaging, so they felt like half meeting/half hang-out session. If we all just focused on the topic at hand, they’d have been over in 20-30 minutes

        Reply ↓
    2. HonorBox*

      I’d talk to the supervisor(s) to find out if there are specific outcomes they’re expecting. Is this seen as a “just an FYI” sort of thing, or are there actionable things they want the staff to take from the session. Not to put more work on your shoulders, but if it is a situation in which they want staff to have some takeaways, perhaps you could provide those supervisors with an agenda and outline that they can share with the team in advance. And maybe the supervisors would be willing to give you a little more authority to call someone out, pointing out that there are specific outcomes that they will be expected to take from your session.

      Reply ↓
    3. MsM*

      Set an expectation at the beginning of the meeting: tell them it’s going to be highly paticipatory, so while you understand if people need their devices to take notes, otherwise you’re going to ask them to put them away and be present at least until the break. I also don’t think it’d be out of line to talk to the supervisor and ask them to be clear with attendees that they need to focus if they’re going to attend.

      Reply ↓
    4. Strive to Excel*

      You could go to the team supervisor and ask them if there’s anything they feel could have gone better! “I noticed that I didn’t get as much engagement with this training as I have in the past, do you have any advice on how I could fix it?”

      I’d guess you’re dealing with one of two things.

      1. You’ve got an employee being disrespectful and checking out in front of their supervisor. It’s possible that the supervisor has noticed, or will notice after you tell him “lack of engagement”, and that they’ll deal with their employee. It’s unlikely you’ll see that happen since a good supervisor doesn’t scold in public.

      2. You’ve got employees who are dealing with something very urgent and time-sensitive, and they want to learn about the topic but need to be available for contact. (I’m strongly reminded of the partners at my prior firm who did their darndest to attend trainings and events with the employees, but an emergency call was an emergency call and sometimes the client letter had to get written right now, amen.) In that case maybe the supervisor will still tell them “hey, if you’ve got something this urgent, it’s ok to not make the training/please don’t multitask”, but it’s possible the supervisor already knows what’s going on.

      Reply ↓
    5. noname today*

      Going to take a different POV of this—a number of my colleagues need to engage with tech to engage with the training. What looks like being on their phone or typing on their computer is actually sharing something they learned in the moment, researching online something that was mentioned in the training, or taking notes. Just because they’re online, don’t assume from the start that they’re being disengaged

      Like MsM said, setting expectations at the beginning—though I would add “…as a group” would help manage everyone’s expectations.

      If it’s truly disengaged behavior, is it possible that the same folks are attending the same training year after year? And therefore a 101 level training isn’t useful for everyone?

      As SMEs we found this last part to be very true. Created different level and scaffolded trainings so folks could take the ones best suited to their work/knowledge/needs.

      Reply ↓
  24. Em from CT*

    Curious what y’all think: have I screwed myself over? How would you address this in future?

    I had a job for two years with Large University: specifically, I was with a department within a school (think Department of Fiber Quality at the School of Llama Management) within the larger University. I had a year-long contract, and the first year my contract was renewed, but the second year I was put on a PIP and ultimately they opted not to renew me.

    Without seeming to defend myself too much, there were pretty specific reasons why I ended up on the PIP—I was going through a mental health crisis, I had to take FMLA for treatment, I had surgery for a separate reason, and then two other different medical crises. I handled it as well as I could, but my work quality was drastically impacted, obviously. I really didn’t deliver what my manager needed, so I get why they didn’t renew me!

    I’ve since asked my manager whether she’d be willing to be a reference for me, and she was pretty clear that she would not be willing to do so/not able to give me a positive reference. Which I appreciate! It’s good to know.

    I’ve been doing a lot of thinking and working on the issues they identified and had me working on; it wasn’t enough to save me at that job, but after a lot of self-reflection I really do think I’ll be much more successful at another role, with the new systems and processes I’ve learned for myself.

    But now I’m wondering: have I forever screwed myself over in terms of getting another job at Large University? Anyone from there looking to hire me would check with her, and if she was so negative about me, I feel it’s unlikely. (I want to stay in the University ecosystem—for one thing, I had some retirement funds there that would vest if I worked one more year.)

    How should I handle this? My instinct is to say something along the lines of “I was dealing with some health issues/It was a combination of circumstances unlikely to repeat/I’ve learned a lot from it about how I work best.” Thoughts?

    Reply ↓
    1. Grits McGee*

      I think your best rebuttal to this manager’s negative reference is going to be a track record of good performance in other positions. It will be much more believable that this 1 year of health and work issues was a one-off if you can then point to multiple years of good work+happy bosses after that. Are there jobs you could take outside the university for a bit to rebuild your work reputation, with a plan to eventually go back? Or maybe parts of the university ecosystem that are more isolated from office where you worked before?

      Reply ↓
    2. Camelid coordinator*

      I am sorry to say it might be hard to get hired back. One of my community partners was hired in an office on campus, and it did not work out. When a position in my office opened up, HR recommended not speaking with her, even though the job in my office was probably a better fit for her. A faculty member with star power and prestige could probably hire you on a grant-funded project if they went to bat for you, but I wouldn’t expect that to happen via a traditional HR job portal-type search. But I could see it happening through networking, so that would be my advice. You might want to try having coffee or lunch with everyone who had a good work experience with you to build your reputation and maybe get some leads.

      Reply ↓
    3. spcepickle*

      I say no you have not screwed yourself over. I work in a large state organization. It is true that even if you don’t list your current manager I am going to call them if you applied for a job with me. That said – we move around so many truly terrible people, that your very understandable blip in otherwise good performance should not be an issue.
      Last year a person who was demoted to secretary was assigned to my office. She was terrible, did not want to be in my office, did as little work as possible, came up with every excuse there was to not come in, but we have a strong union and a lazy HR and I did not have the capital to fire her outright. She applied for a promotion and when I got the reference call I was honest with them. That I could see how this was not the right position and that while I was not impressed with her work I did understand that she might flourish somewhere else. She got the promotion and has been doing well in her new role. I have seen this story play out so many times, that I think most good managers are willing to overlook one bad manager reference.

      So if you want to stay in the University you need allies, people who know your work is good who can speak to potential hiring managers, who can sing your praises. Get any kind of mentor you can – formal or otherwise, make sure they know you are looking for something else, and where you excel and what you are looking for. Talk to your network, ask around about who has good bosses, who is willing to take a chance, who strongly grows people. Make sure that your network also knows you are applying. And then apply for everything you are even kind of qualified for. Because with a not great manager reference you need as many opportunities as possible.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
      1. M2*

        It isn’t retaliation if its true. Why should a manager give a good reference to someone who didn’t do a good job? I have seen too many people do this just to get rid of someone and its never a good thing.

        OP, I would look elsewhere work for awhile and do a great job and maybe apply to the university later. Honestly, there might be something in the HR file about not being able to rehire, so I wouldn’t only apply to large university for roles.

        Reply ↓
        1. M2*

          And the manager didnt say they would give a bad reference they said they couldn’t give them a good reference. Most managers if they can’t give a reference will decline it.

          I think it is important for LW to see if they are eligible for rehire. But I also think it is important to look elsewhere just to make sure you look outside the university.

          Reply ↓
    5. Pretty as a Princess*

      I’m going to go against the grain a bit and suggest that if the position you are applying to is significantly different or in a different department, and some time has gone by, this might be less of an issue. Here’s why:

      As long as you are eligible for rehire, your resume/application will be treated in HR systems like any other one. Which means that if it is compelling for a hiring manager, it will get to them. They will have the ability to review it and form impressions. Your application will not in any way get bumped up against your former boss unless the hiring manager specifically asks for that to be done.

      That person may or may not opt to try to reach out to the other department for feedback. When you say “large university” – it’s possible it’s so large that they don’t know people in or care who is in the other department. Or it’s been awhile. Or they hate the person in the other department. (University politics can be interesting.) I think if asked by a hiring manager about that experience you’d want to be honest and say you had some health issues that really affected your performance. They are resolved, and you have xyz exemplary history elsewhere, etc.

      But the bottom line is if you are coded as eligible for rehire, then you absolutely have NOT tanked your chances forever. Apply for anything you want.

      Reply ↓
    6. Ellie*

      Did you leave in good standing with the university? If you are listed as Not Eligible for Rehire in your personnel file, you are out of luck. If not, use other references. I work at a Large University and when we hire, we only ask for references from those listed by the candidate.

      Reply ↓
    7. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      Is there anyone else you worked with while you were there that could be a counterpoint to the manager’s negative view? I would make sure to include them in references. Other people who work in universities will know that sometimes crap happens and/or sometimes personalities don’t work (not saying this is what happened with your manager, just saying, if only your manager is saying you were bad when there are other people countering it, people might know that your manager is Just Like That).

      I would try to get some other work/experience under my belt before trying back at the same university, just so you can show it was an anomaly. But as long as you’re not trying to get hired back by that manager or someone working under her and you have at least some coworker who can be a positive reference for your time there, you haven’t screwed yourself over.

      Reply ↓
    8. KB*

      1) You are not going to give this person’s name as a reference, so why do you think that potential hiring managers will contact this manager?
      2) If they do contact your former manager, what do you think that manager would say?

      Only once in over 30 years have I been contacted under those conditions. The hiring manager was desperate for feedback, but I refused to give them any. In such a case, I would confirm the dates of employment and the job title. That’s it. In my workplace, my refusal is a red flag but it is also –nothing. No information. The person, by the way, did get the job they were after.

      Reply ↓
  25. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

    I work in conjunction with the head of another department, creating RMA’s for returned teapots to get back into inventory when customers do end runs around our return policy and return them without permission or prior arrangements, although I occasionally say things like, “Well, this teapot was bought in 2019 and we no longer carry it, plus the return window is sixty days; I’ll write a note to the customer explaining this” or, “due to health codes, we cannot accept opened packages of tea,” while the Returns Department says, “hey, this teapot is worn/ dirty/ broken/ somehow smells like grilled cheese,” and sends them back to the customer.

    My grandboss just went over to that department and told them that they are rejecting too many teapots, rooting through the rejection pile and pulling several out to accept. The department head of Teapot Returns is hinting that he resents this and being about as subtle as a ghost reaper pepper about it.

    On one hand, tt’s not my job to manage others’ feelings and it’s not my place to talk about Grandboss; I legit don’t know enough about the “why” of this to comment on how appropriate or necessary it is or isn’t, and I’m not high enough on the org chart to ask Grandboss about it. (When I asked about this, my boss brought up legitimate concerns that Grandboss didn’t seem to touch on.)

    OTOH, it feels irresponsible to let this fester.

    Teapot Returns Head and I mostly interact via spreadsheet but I can chat or email him.

    What to do? Or should I do anything?

    Reply ↓
    1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      It sounds like getting involved in this conflict would be a no-win situation for you. So probably just stay mum unless you’re asked about it directly. Even then, probably safer to just say something like “that’s not in my purview, ask grandboss.”

      Reply ↓
    2. Strive to Excel*

      Stay out unless and until you’re specifically asked to contribute.

      This is an argument between your grandboss and the head of another department, who I’m guessing is either at your same level or at a higher organizational level than you are. If you were TRH’s manager, you might want to step in, but for now, let it alone.

      Reply ↓
  26. DisneyChannelThis*

    Dumb Outlook question but it’s driving me nuts. Every time our admin updates an outlook calendar item for a reoccurring meeting (like adding this week’s topic) it sends an email wanting me to accept or reject the invitation, I’ve already accepted it prior to the change. I also get reminder emails in my inbox for each of these at the start time (this I think might be from the admin? I’ve not seen any setting for it, and none of my other outlook calendar items do this!). Any ideas if there’s a way I can turn this off? I tried googling but didn’t have luck :(

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      Unfortunately I think reminder emails are generated at the organizer end, rather than being a setting you can control on your end. You can try talking to your admin about turning them off but that’s a setting for the whole meeting.

      The reason that Outlook sends a whole new accept/reject emails is because it doesn’t differentiate between changes; changing the time of the meeting and changing the message in the calendar item are the same as far as Outlook calendar is concerned.

      My recommendations:

      1. Move things that don’t need to be on the meeting invite off the meeting invite. Could your admin send agendas out via an email rather than editing a recurring meeting invite?

      2. If that’s not an option, create an Outlook rule that automatically shuffles all “accept/reject meeting” and “meeting reminder” emails into their own folder. That’ll at least get them out of your main inbox.

      Reply ↓
      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I have my notices set so they automatically delete once I make a decision (even if it’s to click “No Response Required”). If it’s a meeting I need, it’s on my calendar. (And has the most recent info.)

        You could remind people that if they add new people to a meeting, there is an option when scheduling to only send the invitation to the new invitees.

        Reply ↓
  27. Shopping is my cardio*

    I have a coworker that calls me Ms… all the time. Let’s say my name is Maura, but in every call or email or IM she calls me Ms Maura. I don’t know why and it is bothering me. We might be in a zoom call and she refers to everyone by their first name but calls me Ms Maura. She is younger than me (maybe by 15 years but she has only seen me in person a few times), she doesn’t report to me or me to her.
    Is this normal? is it insulting or kind? I can’t figure it out. Once it was bothering me so much than when she said “Ms Maura could you do this and that?” I responded with: “sure Ms Yolanda!” with a little snark in my voice. Nothing has changed. I want to ask her why she does this but I am interested in opinions here too. Thanks!

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      My first thought is that there is a cultural difference between your background and hers. “Ms. Firstname” is a thing that happens in some parts of the south.

      Reply ↓
        1. Clisby*

          I’m from the South, and I’m trying to think of where this would even possibly be appropriate. Maybe if your job is in a church, or a family business, or something like that? And even then, calling someone just 15 years older “Ms. Maura” seems weird to me. 50 years older – maybe?

          Reply ↓
        1. Nesta*

          Are you older than the rest of the folks she does it to?

          I work with a good amount of Caribbean-American college students and many of them refer to me as Miss Nesta, but refer to my colleagues by their first names. I am about a decade older than my colleagues, and I’m the only white woman. My one colleague, who is also Caribbean-American, mentioned it is a sign of respect they are taught as kids that older adults are called “Miss First Name” or “Mr First Name.” She said in a closer relationship (so not me, but like their neighbor who they speak with often), they might even called that person Auntie or Uncle, so as to show respect to an elder.

          Reply ↓
          1. Nesta*

            Also I’m sure this isn’t true for every and all Caribbean cultures, but it seems common enough that it has come up from several of our students and my colleague was intimately familiar with it from her childhood and her friends/family.

            Reply ↓
        1. HonorBox*

          I was talking to the principal at my daughter’s school earlier this week, and she referred to me as Mr. HonorBox. I told her that growing up, my dad taught at my school and everyone called him Mr. HonorBox. Even all these years later when someone says Mr. HonorBox, I’m looking to see if my dad is in the room, so please just call me HonorBox.

          Just tell her to you’re more comfortable without the Ms. and please just call you Maura.

          Reply ↓
          1. HonorBox*

            Postscript: The principal laughed and said she totally understood and asked me to call her by her first name instead of Ms. Principal.

            Reply ↓
    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      Is she from the american South? I know culturally in the South you do add Mr/Ms to people older than you as a sign of respect, usually on the first name, Ms Jane , Mr Sam, etc. It’s weird that she is only doing it to you though!

      I would just be direct, next time you IM her just say, hey can you just call me Maura?

      Reply ↓
      1. Shopping is my cardio*

        I think I will, I have been tempted to ask her why she does it. I might just tell her to just call me Maura. Easier. Thanks!

        Reply ↓
    6. dude, who moved my cheese?*

      > Once it was bothering me so much than when she said “Ms Maura could you do this and that?” I responded with: “sure Ms Yolanda!” with a little snark in my voice. Nothing has changed.

      This made me a little sad. I would hate if my coworker was annoyed with something I’m doing but had never told me that directly. Not everyone is going to pick up on ‘a little snark in your voice’ or connect it to themselves. Please just tell her what you want her to call you!

      Reply ↓
      1. CTT*

        I had the same thought – why be snarky to someone who doesn’t know they’re bothering you when you could just ask them to call you by your name?

        Reply ↓
    7. Halloween Misty*

      This is so weird, maybe she just likes the alliteration (if your name does start with a M)? I used to have a colleague who was maybe 15 or so years my senior that would call me “Miss Lastname” which I think would bother me now but didn’t at the time, maybe because everyone at that job always mispronounced my first name.

      Reply ↓
    8. WorkerDrone*

      I have a friend who, when she likes someone, will make up a little nickname or something for them. I could totally see her randomly calling someone “Ms. Maura” as a sort of friendly nickname-y thing. It’s a low-stakes way of creating a minor intimacy when you want to be a bit more friendly to someone when she does it, and I wonder if maybe this is why Yolanda is doing that.

      Is she otherwise friendly? Does she chat with you at all, seem warm, etc? If so, I would bet this is just – to her – a sort of silly friendly “nickname” she’s developed for you based on the alliteration.

      Reply ↓
    9. kbeers0su*

      It could also be that someone else on the team introduced you to her this way, or she heard someone else call you this, so she assumed that was what you preferred. I would just stop her next time and clarify how you’d like to be addressed.

      Reply ↓
  28. why are you like thissss*

    Just got told that a project that was a rushed rush request through unofficial channels, that I ended up completely rearranging things in my staff’s workload in an inconvenient way so it could get done early….didn’t get indexed correctly on the website, so the person who made the request is raging because they couldn’t use it for the presentation they needed it for.

    But. Like. The physical product was done. There IS a way to access the web part without it being indexed, it just takes 30 seconds longer. And I got it to them early, so if they had bothered to LOOK at it ahead of their presentation, they could have gotten this easily solved before they needed it! Can I at least get a little gratitude for the amount of extra work I put in? I know I screwed up, but not in a way that actually prevented them from using the dang thing. We work in a library, not an ER. (and yes I acknowledge I am also overreacting to this situation, but it’s been a WEEK around here and I am just done with everyone).

    Reply ↓
  29. NB*

    I’m a newish manager, and I am wondering how hiring/job seeking practices in other parts of the world may differ from ours in the midwestern United States.

    I work at a small graduate school with a lot of international students. Not long ago, I jettisoned our online application form in favor of requesting a resume and cover letter from our applicants. I find that most applicants submit documents that don’t at all conform to the standards I would expect. My first thought was, “Wow! These cover letters and resumes are terrible! Doesn’t anyone read the application instructions or know how to market themselves with good documents?” But my supervisor and I are now wondering if we are expecting something that is uncommon or even inappropriate in other countries. If so, what should we do about it? Should I spell out my expectations more clearly in the application instructions? Should I go back to using an application form and not bother with resumes and cover letters?

    I want everyone to have the opportunity to shine. I also want to figure out the best way to identify candidates who are most qualified for the work we need them to do.

    Reply ↓
    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      There is huge range of what can be considered the “correct” format for resumes, especially if your candidate pool spans multiple countries. Headshots, marital status are common in some places as info to include for example! Forms work because it does ensure you get the same information from all your candidates (and leaves off stuff you don’t care about). It’s probably a toss up on whether filling in a form is more annoying or having to reformat your resume to meet the job listing’s example. If you do stay with only resumes, make sure your example is really clear and the instructions are able to be translated as needed (text not embedded images).

      Reply ↓
    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I suspect that first-generation college students from any background will have much less familiarity with conventions about resumes & cover letters. Then throw in a different language/culture on top of that, and I’m not surprised you are getting all sorts of submissions.

      Not to mention that if this is a grad student that is mostly for people seeking an academic track in life, a job-style resume is only superficially like an academia CV.

      Reply ↓
    3. I treated you like a son*

      I guess my first question is why did you change the process in the first place? Were you not getting enough applicants, or was there a disconnect between who was applying and what the role calls for?

      Do jobs like you’re hiring for typically require cover letters? If not, you can probably jettison that step

      Reply ↓
    4. Someone Online*

      The nice thing about an application, which I hate to say, is that it’s less likely to bias in favor of good formatting and is more like to emphasize actual work experience.

      Reply ↓
    5. Alex*

      I’m a bit confused–are you taking cover letters and resumes for people to be *students* or *employees*?

      There are definitely going to be wide differences between cover letter and resume expectations internationally, just as there are wide differences in other aspects of culture. I’d ask yourself what you are truly looking for regarding information from these potential applicants and how you can get that information best. Is creating a resume and marketing yourself relevant? Or is something else more relevant?

      Reply ↓
    6. Goddess47*

      Alison frequently is… I’ll say disappointed… at the advice given in college career centers. So if this is where your students got their advice, they are likely getting lesser-quality advice in developing a cover letter and resume.

      Can you do a hybrid application process? One where you get the basic needed information on an online form but offer the opportunity to applicants to “provide additional information in a cover letter and resume” so that you at least get applications?

      I worked in a community college, so had an even wider spread of backgrounds than you do in a grad school, but teaching students how to apply to jobs turns out to be part of what you need to do. Don’t just send them to the career center… and, yes, you have to teach them to read *all* of the instructions…

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    7. Reba*

      For seasonal positions where I work (we routinely hire dozens of temporary workers) we actually put out a template for the resume and say clearly what should be in the cover letter. Heavy-handed but seems to work.

      IMO since your pool is students or early career workers, it can actually benefit them to introduce the cover letter and resume formats. But think about the best way for *you* to get the info you need, and go with that.

      Reply ↓
    8. ecnaseener*

      Many (most?) countries use CVs rather than resumes, so I’m betting a lot of the international students do not in fact know how to market themselves with a good resume. I’d go back to the application form, at least as an option!

      Reply ↓
    9. profe*

      Maybe go back to a form that spells out the basics you’d expect to get from a resume, and then have an optional place to upload a cover letter and encourage it?

      Reply ↓
  30. Anonny Nonny*

    Would love some thoughts on this! So I previously worked for a non-profit, Org A, before moving to Org B, of which Org A is a client. I’m now in a major leadership position with Org B. I still really love Org A and believe in their mission, so I want to make a small donation. My dilemma is that they are a client, and I would not be making similar donations to other clients (some of which are the same sort of non-profit in the same area). Does anyone feel this could seem like favoritism?

    Reply ↓
    1. HonorBox*

      I can see that this might cause some issues with optics. It is probably best to not make a donation, but I think I could be OK with an anonymous donation. You feel good. You’re helping Org A. No one is any the wiser. You won’t show up on donor lists so it really doesn’t ever have to come out.

      Reply ↓
    2. MsM*

      If it’s a small enough amount, I doubt the other orgs will know or notice. (And yes, you could just keep it anonymous if you’re worried.)

      Reply ↓
    3. the cat's pajamas*

      Could you give someone money to donate on your behalf? I once had a supervisor who previously worked at a PBS affiliate, and because it’s government funded and a public entity, all political donations in their household were made by their spouse with a different last name.

      Reply ↓
  31. Mom of Two Littles*

    Argh, this is my second job/company that has significantly reduced paid office closure dates (literally halved them in both cases) and it was presented in a weird chipper way, bragging about how the company is still much more generous than our competitors, and in both times the company expected staff to be positive about this (delulu) or acknowledge that the company is “so generous”.
    As a working parent, losing these days means I’m losing my only time off to myself, all the days that the company has off are now days that my kids schools are also closed.
    Why do companies always try to force the positive spin, even when something like this is inherently a bad thing for employees. Sigh.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      The quote from 1984 about the chocolate ration comes to mind.

      Also, they spin it as a positive because they know it is not true, they are at least a little embarrassed about it, and this is how nervous laughter expresses itself in corporate PR-speak.

      Reply ↓
    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      Ugh, that sucks. As a working mom myself, my employer offers a LOT of paid office closure dates–we’re a university. But they still nearly all coincide with days my son’s daycare is closed. It’s hard when schools and childcare facilities have so many days off! It might be something to keep in mind if you start looking for another job: consider that maybe more vacation time might be a priority in your negotiations for exactly this reason. (Me, I plan on staying here forever, so I’m just glad that I get a buttload of vacation time. I just need to be better about taking it.)

      Reply ↓
    3. ecnaseener*

      Are they giving you more vacation days to make up for it, or just blatantly reducing your PTO and expecting you not to be upset about that?! (If they’re giving you the vacation days, then I understand the positive spin, more flexibility which I understand has both pros and cons.)

      Reply ↓
  32. goose*

    Freelancers, have any of you found yourself in a “coworker” dynamic that feels like too much for the scope of the job? I work 20 hours a week for my primary client and I regret not setting better boundaries up front. There’s one person I interact with a lot who was hired around the same time as me, but she’s a full-time staff member. She also is fairly new to the professional workforce, doesn’t have anyone else she works closely with, and is not getting the supervision/direction she needs. Right off the bat, she latched on to me as the person she can talk openly with about her frustrations with the job. There have been so many times when I’ve wanted to give her advice about office norms and how she might be able to find more success in her position, but since I’m not a full-fledged employee there, I don’t always feel like that’s appropriate. There is also a general issue with her looping me into ALL the goings-on at the organization, a lot of which isn’t relevant to what I was hired to do. I want to keep a good rapport with her but also steer us away from topics that aren’t relevant to the projects we’re working on. I can be a pushover with these things so I’m definitely interested to hear any scripts or advice that could be helpful in a situation like this.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      “This is a lot more context than I need. Can we focus in on X, please?”
      “I’m going to have to cut you off there; this sounds outside the scope of my responsibilities.”
      “I’m sorry: I’d like to help, but I don’t think I’m in a position to offer any insights on that.”
      “This really feels like a conversation you should be having with Supervisor/Colleague.”

      Depending on how well you know the supervisor and/or someone who’s in a position to be an internal mentor to this person, you could mention you feel like this person could use more hands-on guidance and let them take it from there.

      Reply ↓
  33. Wilbur*

    Has anyone been using AI at work? My company is trialing it (Microsoft Copilot) right now and laid out some use cases-create a transcript of a meeting and summarize it, draft an email, summarize and prioritize your emails when you come back from vacation, summarize a long string of emails you get added to, etc. It seems interesting, but there are so many caveats and restrictions that I’m not sure it would actually be helpful. It sounds like it doesn’t work with excel/data, which is what I’d love to use it for (Specifically identifying trends). Are there any use cases that you’ve found helpful?

    Reply ↓
    1. Tio*

      We also started an internal AI GPT thing – mostly to avoid our employees putting company info into 3rd party sites, tbh – and it is actually pretty helpful in getting some info together for email starters and presentations, especially for people like me who have a lot of info but aren’t great at putting together openers or closers. For example we asked it to write up an opener for a QBR meeting with our vendors and it did a pretty good job!

      Reply ↓
    2. Diomedea Exulans*

      I do use AI for coding help, as in debugging or documentation of code, especially when I have to create POCs on a short notice. I tend not to use it to write emails or technical documentation, as that gimmicky jargone-y style doesn’t appeal to me in the slightest. However, most of my colleagues do use it to write emails and documents.

      Reply ↓
    3. Busy Middle Manager*

      Curious what others say. I recently left a job but hated copilot. I never actually used it because I’d check things I’d know in it, and 80% of the time, it would give a technically true/logistically false answer.

      For example, I’d want to know when we’d need to notify customers of changes on their account. Many states had their own rules. Many in Kansas is you’d need to send a print letter within 5 days. In kentucky, no letter. In PA, letter within two weeks.

      Well, ChatGPT would say “various jurisdictions have various laws that vary.”

      Not technically wrong, but wrong. Someone less experienced wouldn’t know what they didn’t know, so it can even be dangerous

      Reply ↓
    4. DrSalty*

      I work in scientific publications and we have been experimenting with using it for literature searches and reviews. I haven’t done it personally but it seems like a very good application of the technology imo.

      Reply ↓
    5. PropJoe*

      I use Goblin Tools to help me break tasks down into component steps, which is helpful when I’m struggling to figure out where to start on something.

      I use Copilot in situations where I’m wondering about something that I might be able to find with an internet search, but don’t feel like clicking through a dozen search results until I find something relevant.

      Reply ↓
    6. I treated you like a son*

      We use something called Fathom for recording, summarizing, and transcribing meetings. I have to say it’s pretty damn amazing how accurate it is. The summaries in particular are really well put together.

      Reply ↓
    7. Knitting As Foci*

      My job has been using it, mostly via responsive actions in our instance of Salesforce and Acrobat. I think it can be helpful, esp for the bookmarks section of many hundreds of pages long PDFs but it is generally something I don’t pay attention to. I know employees with longer tenure than mine have found it helpful for seeking out specific documentation, but they work in a slightly different area of the same project I do.

      Reply ↓
  34. Subawoo*

    After a year-long search, I recently started a new job. So far, it’s been great. I left my last position largely due to the impossible workload, and the salary wasn’t commensurate with the ever increasing responsibility. Each time my boss added something to my plate, I just accepted it without complaint or pushing back. I was simultaneously flattered to be trusted with important projects and hopeful that it would result in a promotion or raise. It did not.

    The new job is a bump in pay — which I negotiated up further thanks to the AAM guides–and a much more focused scope of work. I’m working to avoid the mistakes of my previous position and be satisfied with a balanced work/life mix. But there’s a part of me that feels like if I’m not bringing my A game at all times, I’m not really doing my job.

    I want to be happy with the status quo and not constantly strive to make things bigger, better, and faster all the time. And I really want to do what I can to NOT get into another overload situation with this new position. Any advice for this former office pick-me?

    Reply ↓
    1. Goddess47*

      Hesitate whenever the ‘sure, I’ll do it’ bug bites. Minutes, hours, days. If you’re asked directly, don’t hesitate to push an answer off when you can.

      “Let me look at my workload and see if I can reasonably fit this in!” Answer cheerfully and positively but it’s not an immediate ‘yes’… and then look over your workload. You can take on extra things but you need to be more selective.

      What will help is if you have a life to manage. A hobby, friends, anything that you do outside of work that you need to put time into. You can’t work extra because you’ve already committed to doing X in your free time. It can be as simple as a library book you need to read because it’s due at the end of the week. Or your Hello, Fresh order is being delivered and you’re looking forward to cooking for yourself. Or you already made an appointment for a manicure that you need to keep. It doesn’t have to be rocket science but it should be not-work.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    2. Generic Name*

      LOL at the “office pick-me” terminology. I feel this so hard. I had 4 different roles at my last job, and was also grossly underpaid and not taken seriously. It was like the saw me as a hole they could throw all the crappy, boring, low-value projects into as well as someone who would clean up other people’s messes. Need a 20-page report that Scientist Sally didn’t bother writing and has also no call/no showed for 2 weeks? Sure, I can do that in 4 days. I also left that company for a huge pay bump. Funny how companies that treat employees poorly also pay them poorly. I also thought that working hard would mean that I would have influence and would be given more power/decision-making at that company, especially as I had been there over 10 years. I was wrong.

      As for moving forward in your shiny new job, know that management is trusting you to speak up when your workload is too heavy. This is especially true if you are say, more than 5 years into your career. Not every place is proactive about asking employees if they are too busy. Also be strategic about what you say yes to. Be wary of taking on stuff outside the scope of your role unless it’s an area you want to move into/really enjoy.

      I think you have also learned that simply working hard does not get you advancement/promotions. You have to speak up about your desire to be promoted. Ask about next steps for your role in your 1:1s with your manager.

      Reply ↓
    3. PX*

      I find it best to set hard boundaries on things and make sure you stick to them from the beginning to set the tone. Whether thats not working past 5pm, not working on weekends, only ever having 3 projects max on the go – pick something that you can use as your yardstick of “only this much and not more” and then be vigilant about sticking to it.

      Also, what Godess47 said, if saying “no” to things immediately is hard, get into the habit of giving a “let me have a think about it and get back to you on that” instead.

      Reply ↓
  35. Anonymous for this*

    I work in a rather casual workplace – no dress code whatsoever. People’s sartorial choices range from tracksuit bottoms to full suits. I was wondering if – when it comes to jeans – there is a general consensus on whether skinny jeans or more relaxed high waisted jeans (mom or dad jeans, if you will) is more professional. I usually wear Levi’s 501 (black or light blue) with a blazer or a silk blouse, but most other women wear dark wash skinny jeans with cardigans and a nice top.

    Reply ↓
    1. birder in the backyard*

      I think we are in an era of fashion flux when it comes to jeans. Even retailers have a little bit of everything on the racks right now. Classic cuts will always be OK, IMO. This is doubly true if combined with a more polished top, blazer, or accessories. Personally, I avoid light blue jeans or anything with holes as sometimes they can look worn out.

      Reply ↓
    2. this-is-fine.jpeg*

      As a woman in the workplace, I have literally never paid attention to jean style! I find what’s more important is tops — a crop top vs a sweater is going to be a very different professional vibe, even when paired with the same jeans. My 2 cents!

      Reply ↓
      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        This! And shoes. As long as what’s in between covers what it needs to and is clean and in good repair, you should be fine

        Reply ↓
    4. Csethiro Ceredin*

      I think of the wash and the fabric more than the cut when I consider which of my jeans are work-appropriate. I’ll often wear black or grey or dark wash jeans to work, but not ones with those worn paler patches, rips, or a lot of embellishments. I sometimes wear lighter ones if they’re plain.

      Most of mine are skinny or straight-leg slim, but that’s just what suits me.

      That said I wouldn’t even notice my colleagues’ style of jeans – we have no dress code either – unless they looked like clubwear or were really shabby or dirty.

      Reply ↓
      1. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

        This. I find dark jeans with no embellishments/rips to be the most professional. So black, navy, dark wash, dark grey, that sort of thing. OR a pair of white jeans with a nice blouse/shirt can also read professional. Light washes/light blue, much less so.

        I would not even notice the cut unless maybe someone is wearing HUGE bell-bottoms. I’ve always considered the cut of jeans to be more about what is flattering/comfortable for the individual, not professionalism.

        Reply ↓
    5. ThatGirl*

      I think dark wash will always read a bit less casual but the cut doesn’t matter a ton, as long as they fit and aren’t like, jnco.

      Reply ↓
    6. ecnaseener*

      My instinct is that the in-between space of straight cut or slim fit reads the most professional. Like with a lot of other clothes — fitted but not tight, because skintight reads casual and loose also reads casual. (Probably this comes from messed up ideas about how much of your body shape should be discernible, not too much and not too little.)

      Reply ↓
    7. HonorBox*

      My workplace has a dress code and we are allowed to wear jeans on Fridays if we don’t have “public” matters. The only thing that doesn’t fly is holes. I have quickly looked around and have seen almost every type of cut – from skinny to bootcut to the 501s style. The only reason I even thought to pay attention was because of this question. Otherwise, as long as they’re not full of holes or supremely ill-fitting, I don’t think there’s a reason anyone would question it. To me the beauty of jeans is that you can wear something that is comfortable to you.

      Reply ↓
    8. Cedrus Libani*

      I wear jeans to work (in tech) and IMO relaxed-fit styles are fine. I wouldn’t go all the way to cargo pants (swooshy and distracting), nor would I go tighter than “skinny jeans” (leggings are not pants, even if made from denim-ish fabric).

      I prefer dark washes. Light washes can look worn out, and they show stains. I think the “distressed” look is definitely not for work…unless it’s yard work. Never understood why I would want to buy a new pair of jeans that looked worse than the old pair that was about to get relegated to the “yard work” drawer.

      Reply ↓
  36. EL*

    Hello! Hoping for some helpful advice. I have a second interview for a role that was vague in its description, and after learning more about it in the first round, I’m not sure if I would even accept an offer. What is a tactful way to ask questions I need answers to regarding what the actual day-to-day tasks are to know if I’m even interested without coming off negatively?
    TIA,
    EL

    Reply ↓
    1. Goddess47*

      I suspect tactful may not get what you need. ;-) Especially since you sound reasonably sure you won’t take the job, go for overt. You’ll have nothing to lose!

      But you can try something along the lines of “I find I’m not clear on the actually duties of the position. What does a typical day and typical week look like? What sorts of work is expected and what will be expected of me?”

      And/or “Will there be an opportunity talk to someone who does similar work or the team I’ll be working with?” They’ll have the best information.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    2. Decidedly Me*

      Asking “what does a typical day in this role look like?” is totally normal, so anything in that vein shouldn’t come off negatively.

      Reply ↓
    3. FricketyFrack*

      I think it’s reasonable to be straightforward. “Can you tell me what the day to day will look like for this position?” is a normal question. If they’re still vague, I don’t think that’s a great sign, either because they know it’s not appealing or because they don’t have a firm idea of what the job is even going to be.

      Reply ↓
    4. DisneyChannelThis*

      You can either email the hiring manager now, or you can wait until they ask if you have questions in the second interview. If you were contacted by a recruiter you can also ask them.

      “Hi Mr/Ms/Dr So and So,
      Thank you for meeting with me about the Job Title opening. I had some questions concerning the job role, could you clarify how much of the job would be doing XYZ tasks as opposed to ABC tasks? Then a sentence something about how you’re excited for this opportunity”

      Reply ↓
  37. CeramicSun*

    What’s the longest CV/resume you’ve ever seen? Occasionally my dad will look at them for the board he’s on and they’re 30+ pages and sometimes date back to high school or before. Granted the people have MDs and PhDs so it’s not like everyone is coming straight out of college but who has the time to read all of that?

    Reply ↓
    1. FricketyFrack*

      I think the longest one we got for our last opening was something like 24 pages, but it was because the person applying is…not the most stable person in the world. They included some truly wild stuff and their formatting was atrocious. They weren’t remotely qualified anyway, though, so we didn’t bother to read it all.

      Reply ↓
      1. Panicked*

        I’ve had a few of these come across my desk as well. One that sticks out in my mind included every disciplinary notice he had received, along with a paragraph about why he thoughts the notice was wrong. If every employer (of which there were many) is telling you that you’re the problem, maybe you’re actually the problem.

        Reply ↓
    2. Strive to Excel*

      CVs in some industries are very weird. I was peeking over the shoulder of a doctor friend doing their CV up in preparation for job hunting and it was a massive, massive production for them. I don’t remember the exact word count but I think that their summary page was two pages long and then there was a long expanded chunk that had a bunch of additional details on their schooling and prior jobs.

      Reply ↓
    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Where are you based? I’m in Canada and there is a definite difference between a CV and a resume — the resume can be concise and selective in what it details, but a CV by definition would be very lengthy and list a ton of stuff that may feel stale, so it’s less of a “who has time to read that” vs “this is what is dictated by the format and purpose of the document.”

      Reply ↓
    4. Csethiro Ceredin*

      I get resumes from counsellors and social workers, and many of them are giant because they sometimes list all the professional development courses they have done and any academic work. They can certainly be around 30 pages long if they go that route.

      I usually just skim anything older and am more interested that they continue to keep up their certifications and do some ongoing development/education.

      Reply ↓
    5. tgif, baby*

      I’ve seen 30+ page resumes before, from senior people with PhD’s. About 2-3 pages of actual information, and the rest is publications, conferences etc. I roll my eyes a bit, but doesn’t phase me otherwise.

      Reply ↓
    6. allathian*

      My dad’s a retired scientist with some 300+ publications to his name in a 40+ year career. His last CV was two pages but the publications appendix was about 30 pages long.

      Reply ↓
    7. Little Miss Helpful*

      In my experience, resumes should be concise, but a CV is meant to be comprehensive. Every time an academic gives a talk, appears at a conference, or publishes an article, it goes on their CV.

      Reply ↓
  38. FricketyFrack*

    This is more of a vent than a question. I’ve come to realize I need to start looking for a new job, which I hate doing. I was promoted about a year ago and I really enjoy the work, but my coworker was given supervisory authority over my new position and they’re, frankly, really bad at it. I don’t think they’ve ever supervised anyone before, and it shows. I had a 6 month check in and they spent the entire time bringing up negative things. I said it sounded like they didn’t have anything positive to say, and they just kind of shrugged, but when I said, “ok, so it sounds like I need to look for another job?” they acted like that was an unreasonable takeaway. I pointed out that a ton of the things they were bringing up happened months earlier and it would’ve been helpful to hear about issues at the time so I could take action. They agreed to give more timely feedback.

    Fast forward to now, we have another 6 month check in. Once again, they had notes about things that happened months ago AND, this time, were demonstrably false. Apparently my coworker said I’d done something I hadn’t (over the summer) and instead of approaching me about it then, my supervisor waited until now to say, “so and so told me ____, I’m really disappointed in you.” I had documentation that the story was false, and would’ve been fine if they weren’t treating it as the gospel truth without even asking me about it. Then I was told that I did a couple of (relatively minor) things wrong with my supervisor admitting they’d never actually told me about those things beforehand but still pretty heavily blaming me for not being a mindreader, I guess? At the end of a pretty negative meeting, they made a comment about how they learned they still have to give feedback to employees who are overall doing well, with the implication that I’m one of them. It was total whiplash.

    Anyway, I’m doing my job well – there are objective standards and everything I’m doing is correct, done quickly, and my relationships with customers are fantastic (I know because many of them have said so). I know I’m not perfect, but I can’t work with a manager who thinks the only feedback they need to provide is when there’s something wrong. I also don’t particularly want to work with someone who will lie about me.

    Unfortunately, a lot of what’s available is the next step up from where I’m at and requires more specific program knowledge than I have. I need some lateral jobs to open up, dang it. I was approached by someone I’d interviewed with to see if I was interested in another opening they had, but it wasn’t a good fit, unfortunately. I may need to strap in for the long haul on this one.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      Is there a grandboss you could talk to about your concerns that your supervisor needs coaching, or having you report to someone else? Would HR be any help?

      Reply ↓
      1. FricketyFrack*

        Our department head is extremely hands off. They were my boss originally, and I think I had 1-2 reviews in the 5 years I worked directly under them. I think that’s part of why my supervisor is the way they are.

        The nature of my work group means that going to HR would mean I’d need to basically be giving notice as I did it because any relationship I’ve been able to preserve would be destroyed. Also, our HR rep isn’t the most useful guy in general. I do plan to have a discussion with both supervisor/boss once I find something else, though.

        Reply ↓
    2. kbeers0su*

      Your supervisor does sound like they suck at supervising, and it sounds like they sat down the day before your meeting and started jotting notes about things that have annoyed them over the past six months. And then they probably just rattled that off to you without really stopping to think about whether those notes are a reflection of your whole performance.

      Seeing as you’re likely stuck for awhile, I think it would be worth your time to put together an email that reflects both the issues with your check-ins thus far and an actual summary of your performance. “During our meeting on date you brought up X story from my coworker and told me you were disappointed, and then I clarified that X story was not true with Y supporting information.” “You stated that A thing I did six months ago was an issue, but it was not raised to me until date during meeting. Going forward I will plan to do C thing if this situation arises again.” I would also been put in writing to your supervisor the demonstrably positive metrics that you mentioned and really dig into those. Maybe putting this all together and making them read it will help them realize that they’re focusing on minor things instead of the whole picture.

      Reply ↓
      1. FricketyFrack*

        This is good advice, thank you. We have to start doing self-evaluations at some point in the near-ish future, so that’s good preparation for that process. Even if it seems like my supervisor has decided they just don’t like my personality, at least then I’ll have documentation of exactly what is and isn’t happening and how I’ve tried to address it on my end.

        Reply ↓
    3. KB*

      I wonder if what you need to do is “manage up.” That is, manage your manager. Which sucks, because it’s a friggin’ extra task you do not need. On the other hand, it sounds like you don’t need to manage up all their managerial tasks, just maybe the one that involves supervising you.

      Do you have regular meetings with this person? If you can take charge of them, that might help. If you do not have meetings with this person, can you schedule them yourself? Can you set the agenda yourself, tell them what you are doing, tell them how you are prioritizing, and ask them if they have any feedback on your prioritization or are hearing anything from other people about you or they know of any deadlines or circumstances that would have an impact on your work.

      Here’s the kicker: send them a summary of the meeting in an email. “I shared that I would be prioritizing the llama grooming for the next two weeks over the TPS reports, and you agreed that this made sense.” “I asked you if there were any upcoming deadlines or if there was any feedback from the teapot team, and you said there were none.” This is a paper trail so that if you get another negative performance review, you have evidence that they failed to let you know in a timely manner about something that needed to change.

      If they don’t want to have regular meetings, send an email that says “I requested that we have regular meetings so that I do not get surprised by negative feedback at 6-months reviews, but you determined that you did not want to hold regular meetings with me.”

      Reply ↓
  39. Fidget spinner*

    At want point in maternity leave does it make sense to reach out to the supervisor to see about switching to a different type of shift or schedule upon return (including the possibility of switching to part time)? If it’s relevant, the leave is mostly unpaid, the employer pays for six days the rest is PTO/FMLA etc

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      How long is the leave? Mat leave is usually a year where I live and people usually get back in touch with the supervisor a month before they’re scheduled to return, to confirm mostly that they are returning. I imagine any schedule adjustments would be negotiated then as well.

      Assuming you’re in the US because of the FMLA mention, I’m assuming you’re doing like twelve weeks max? But probably less than that if it’s unpaid? I’d probably settle on two weeks, but I also don’t know if you’d be able to get the changes implemented before your return with that little notice (i.e. I assume this probably has to go up the chain for approvals if you want to go part-time, etc.).

      Reply ↓
      1. Fidget Spinner*

        Thanks! Yeah I guess the question is if the equivalent would be one month out no matter what, or 11/12 of the way through, which in my case would be one week out.

        Reply ↓
    2. Fidget spinner*

      I’m on maternity leave and my partner is back working, with several days a week being at home. Is it ok for a parent (who wasn’t given any paid leave, even though most of the other employees are in states that require paid leave, which I understand isn’t relevant but it feels like it is) to occasionally be alone with the newborn while working, for things like if I need to pump or eat? What about leaving the home to go to an OB appointment? If I go to target, can baby stay at home with dad? Or does that go against the unwritten contract with the employer to not be providing childcare during working hours?

      Reply ↓
    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      If you already know you want to do it, I’d reach out as soon as possible to give your supervisor time to figure out what options they can offer you and what changes they would need to make to accommodate those options.

      Reply ↓
  40. puppkinspice*

    Hello, I work for a nonprofit. Our board president is out of control. She is constantly directing and interfering with staff processes, dumping tasks on our executive director (!) that she always considers urgent (even when they aren’t) and is also constantly saying she wants to step back while actively doing the opposite.

    She is also a constant interruptor (no one can ever finish a sentence or thought). It is maddening to work with her and we are constantly behind on our tasks for the organization because she is always getting involved.

    On the flip side she is utterly devoted to our org and has contributed an enormous amount of money to us. As a result the rest of the board has been very weak in controlling her, even though the problem is obvious and they all know it. She is like a missing stair but with power over the organization.

    I am in one of the highest staff positions in this org and I love what we do. Leaving would require a significant life change, likely picking up my family and moving to a different state since what we do is so niche. But I don’t feel like this is sustainable.

    Has anyone been in this situation before? Personally, I know I need to be open to other jobs; practically, I’ll likely be here for a while and I need a way to deal with her while making sure this org still actually functions as it should. Right now the directors are dangerously behind on tasks due to her interference and even when I’ve tried to communicate this it is acknowledged and then she continues to do her thing regardless. Any help or insight would be appreciated.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      What’s the board like in general? Do you have a governance committee? Are there other people you could work with to make sure everyone understands the board’s responsibilities and relationship to staff, and gently encourage her to actually step back like she’s been saying she wants to? Do you have prospects in the pipeline who might reduce your dependence on her for funding? If not, can you work with the executive director to identify those people so you can at least lay the foundation for long-term change?

      Also, how is your executive director responding to all this? Are they doing their best to minimize the impact of her demands on the rest of the staff and redirect her to projects where her input might have some kind of upside? Or are they just letting her do whatever she wants because they aren’t willing to even try and set boundaries?

      Unfortunately, I’ve been in situations where the dysfunction was too entrenched across multiple levels of leadership to be fixed, and the only solution was to leave. If that’s the boat you’re in, then all you can really do until you find something else is sound the alarm when being behind will mean the board is not fulfilling its duty to the organization (e,g. being behind in filing important paperwork, or unable to take advantage of funding opportunities), and let leadership deal with the fallout if they decide to ignore you.

      Reply ↓
    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I don’t think you can fix this, though I wish you could. If your ED isn’t pushing back on this person micromanaging stuff they don’t need to be micromanaging, then there’s little help anyone else can do it.

      That said, if I did think there was a chance at fixing this, I’d be trying to figure out:

      1) What is the annual value of her financial contributions and is there a way to replace those and/or adjust operations so that you won’t miss them if she stops donating?

      2) Asking the ED to take a firmer hand with her on the day-to-day running of the company, which is to say she shouldn’t be that involved and a regular “Jane, the operational parts are running smoothly, so I’d love if we could have the board focus on XYZ.”

      3a) Working with her on figuring out a transition plan so she’s no longer in charge. She’s said herself that she wants to step back, and while obviously that is an egregious lie based on her actions, take her at face value! It’s like those letters AAM gets periodically about staff who want to retire or drop down to part time but just keep coming back into the office. Let’s set a last day with her and figure out what tasks we need to transition to a different person on the board.

      3b) If you can’t transition her out, can you redirect her energies? It sounds like she has a lot of passion but she’s mistakenly putting it towards things that you have paid staff to cover. What’s something else she could be doing that would be very time consuming and also beneficial to the company?

      4) The rest of the boards sounds like they’re filled with cowards, but are there one or two that your ED or you have a friendly relationship with who you can recruit to help on all of the above? But in a way that doesn’t make it feel like you’re going around the chair in a nefarious way.

      5) Is there any legal framework about board governance where you live? I live somewhere that instituted term limits for healthier board governance so that boards aren’t filled with people like this lady who act like the org is their own little fifedom, and I’d seriously leverage that if it exists. If it does, she’s endangering the long term health of the org by not moving on, no matter how passionate she is.

      Reply ↓
    3. HonorBox*

      There are outsiders who could help with this. Suggest to your exec. director that a board retreat and board orientation might be helpful. And then bring in a third party to run the retreat on your behalf. Someone doing that for you will likely want to know what outcomes you’re seeking. It might be work on some strategic goal setting. It might also be helping the board understand its role better. If you have someone outside the organization making the suggestion, with your guidance for desired outcomes, you might be able to build some better support from the rest of the board. I’d also suggest that as part of that process you put together job descriptions for the board, if you don’t have those already. That should highlight where their input is needed and helpful, what actions board members should take, and may even outline what they’re not supposed to do. Even if someone is passionate and gives of time and money, if there’s a clear road map it is much easier to remind Jane that day to day operations full under the purview of the exec. director and staff, not the board. And in meetings if she gets away from her role, it might be easier for other board members to remind her that they all agreed to a specific course of action with the consultant.

      Reply ↓
        1. MsM*

          Particularly the bit about having an outsider make the suggestion. If you have any foundation funders, they might be particularly helpful with this.

          Reply ↓
  41. Three Cats in a Trenchcoat*

    I am SO ANNOYED this week.

    HR announced the dates for open enrollment, and due to changes this year it is an actiev enrollment (eg if you forget you don’t just get last years options). They have banners everywhere! I have been getting repeated emails!

    This would be fine except there is no 2025 benefit guide yet. All those banners have QR codes that go nowhere. Emails have attachments with links that 404. I do not understand why anyone would start the email blitz BEFORE the guide has even been created!

    Reply ↓
    1. ecnaseener*

      I’d be tempted to email HR every single time expressing your genuine confusion. You want to follow the directions, but you can’t access the benefits guide! What are you supposed to do with this email?

      Reply ↓
    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Been there, done that, and wondered why HR then gets frustrated when people are complaining about how opaque the system is or why we don’t read their emails. Sometimes we don’t get our enrollment details until after we were supposed to make the choice. So excellent.

      Reply ↓
  42. LifeisaDream*

    I know Good News Friday is no more but I have Good News! I work in food and hospitality and loved my job until 2 years ago. We have a manager who decided to become a micromanager even though they knew nothing about our work. They manage a few departments because we’ve been short-staffed since the pandemic. This year was particularly bad because our hiring pool is small and most of the staff who quit (0ne of my crew rage quit in the middle of the day) made it known that the manager was the reason. I started a job search last year and did a bit of parttime/casual work in other settings looking for another job. I was offered several but now that I know what to look for so I turned them down. Then, a friend of a friend recommended me to their manager. It’s a lighter workload, set in stone hours and better pay and benefits. I spoke with the manager and the process started. I had everything they were looking for and I start working at the new job Monday! I am happy for the first time in a long time.

    Reply ↓
  43. Head Sheep Counter*

    I have been working as a contractor at a company now for three years. I’m paid well and have some benefits. However, the benefits are a bit expensive and not the medical insurance we currently prefer. As such, we’ve put ourselves on my spouse’s plan. He’s getting laid off. Its a shock and a bummer.

    Given our changed circumstances, I’ve been contemplating applying for a direct position at my company. They offer good benefits. The catch is – that I currently make about $5K more than the very top of the range (its one of these awkward organizations where depending on where the funding comes from the same job has to pay bands). Since I’d be cold-calling the position (I have no connections in this other group) it seems very risky to imagine that I’d get that top salary.

    Is it worth trying for? The pros would be hybrid (current position is not), solid benefits and at least a feeling of more job security. The cons in my mind is the timing to make a bit less is not great and I’ve paused my job searching in general because I’ve not been getting traction so the mental toll of trying gives me pause.

    I currently have the same job title but different organization and different responsibilities. I have the years of experience to qualify for the upper band but do not have a degree and this sort of company sometimes gets hung up about that requirement (this posting is listed as a degree or years of experience). Its a large organization (over 9K folk).

    Reply ↓
    1. Decidedly Me*

      There’s no harm in trying! Are you a 1099 contractor? Contractor rates tend to be higher due to tax differences, so switching to be an employee, even at a lesser salary, can still result in the same take home.

      Reply ↓
      1. Head Sheep Counter*

        I’m a W-2 Employee. Its been very interesting to dabble in the contractor space in this sort of strange way. Effectively its as if I worked for a Temp Company.

        Reply ↓
        1. Decidedly Me*

          Ah, got it. I still say it’s worth trying if you’re up for it! You’re probably correct that getting top of band will be hard, but it’s not impossible. Is the insurance cost to cover you and your spouse cheaper as a regular employee? That could help make up some of the difference.

          I totally get the feeling of not getting traction on a job search, as I was recently looking and wasn’t even getting screeners for jobs where I ticked all the boxes. It’s a market thing and not an individual one, though, so try your best to not take it personally (easier said than done!). The first job I finally got an interview for I ended up getting the job. Even though the job you’re looking at is a different group, the fact you’re at the same company will almost certainly help.

          Reply ↓
    2. Strive to Excel*

      Yes.

      Usually the advice for contractors/freelancers is to take your expected hourly wage and double or triple it, because that’s how much you’re going to have to pay out for benefits & taxes.

      Take a look at your current salary and see how much of it is going to taxes/benefits now.

      Reply ↓
    3. Tech Industry Refugee*

      I say, go for it! They already know you and you have presumably been doing high quality work for them.

      Can you let the person who has been managing your work know that you want to apply? They might have an “in?”

      Reply ↓
  44. Bookworm*

    Is anyone else dealing with BS from coworkers due to the current political situation here in the US? I keep my politics to myself. I was listening to a political podcast with Apple AirPod Pro 2 (this is important because sound can’t leak out due to the silicone tips in your ears). Coworker came to my desk to ask a question, saw the podcast “cover art” on my locked iPhone screen, and flipped out. “How can you support that effing candidate?” and so on. Said some very not nice assumptions about me. I went immediately to manager. Coworker was talked to and is now sullen around me. The ironic part is that is I don’t support the candidate who the podcast was about.

    Reply ↓
    2. Kesnit*

      I work in a field that is rather conservative, but am a staunch liberal. My political views are known, but I make a point of NOT talking politics in the office. (One of my coworkers teased me once, asking how he and I are friends, given our different views. I laughed and pointed out that we don’t talk politics.)

      I early voted last weekend and have made it clear that I am DONE with politics for the year. I can’t even listen to the political podcasts I normally do. (My wife has joked that she is building a blanket fort November 5 and hiding.)

      One of my other coworkers approached me yesterday and said she think she and I are the only liberals in the office. (It isn’t a big office.) I told her I thought there was 1 other, but am not sure. I will say it was nice to know there is someone else I can talk to!

      Reply ↓
    3. jm*

      Let them pout. They were that far out of line, and manager did give ‘a talking to.’ You were well within your rights.

      Reply ↓
    4. HonorBox*

      Their reaction is a reflection of them, not of you. They made an assumption about you based only on something they saw. They also attacked you based on said assumption. You didn’t force them into a conversation. Their reaction was far beyond appropriate, and if they’re sulking because they got into trouble, it was only of their own doing.

      Reply ↓
      1. Bookworm*

        I’m not worried about how coworker is acting. It was such a weird, over the top response to seeing what I was listening to. Everything is broken right now.

        Reply ↓
  45. Susan Calvin*

    Any tips on how to make the most of an industry conference where you don’t have any pre-existing connections? Or any tips really, it’s my first one outside academia.

    Optional context: I’m visiting a llama breeder conference, to essentially do market research for a shearing technology company – with the additional twist that I’ve been in the grooming business for a decade, and spent some years in the llama division of a previous employer, but have since moved through different target industries and currently work exclusively with sheep farmers. I’m only being sent because our llama team is somewhat understaffed and I’m the best compromise between qualification and availability.

    Reply ↓
  46. Jane*

    Anyone have advice on how to present work experience that’s outside of your chosen career path? My industry–let’s call it the teapot industry for anonymity’s sake–has been in a lot of turmoil over the past few years, and I had to take on a job outside of it last year entirely because I needed a paycheck and there are very few positions in teapot production at the moment. Although I don’t love this job and have actively been trying to leave for the past year, its one saving grace is that there’s a ton of skill overlap with teapot production.

    It’s very easy to write about my current-job duties in a teapot-production voice, but since it’s in a completely different industry, I worry about whether or not it will make hiring managers at teapot studios reluctant to consider me. My resume template for teapot-production work is split into Industry Experience/Other Experience, so I don’t feel too bad about listing my current job there, but I do feel like seeing it front and center on, say, my LinkedIn would throw people off. What do y’all think?

    Reply ↓
    1. tgif, baby*

      if you have previously worked in teapot production, I’d pitch it as skills broadening – very similar skills, let you learn X and Y in other industry, so you have a bigger picture? Dunno if that’s applicable.

      Reply ↓
    2. Angstrom*

      Emphasize the relevant skills and accomplishments in the resume, and explain your path and the skills overlap in the cover letter.
      Does your LinkedIn include that you’re looking to return to the teapot industry?

      Reply ↓
      1. Jane*

        It does; my little “About Me” blurb talks about how eager I am to continue building a career in teapot production management, and the only jobs I currently have listed are from the teapot industry.

        Reply ↓
    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Is LinkedIn important in the industry you’d like to get back to? If no, I wouldn’t worry about it on that site.

      I think the bigger thing is that your industry is in known turmoil, so I don’t think a hiring manger will be surprised to find other experience listed more recently on your resume.

      Reply ↓
      1. Jane*

        Honestly, I’m never sure; it seems really subjective. Some folks in my industry use it a ton, some have an account but hardly touch it. (I personally am somewhere in the middle; I’m not big on social media in general and there’s a lot about LinkedIn that makes me roll my eyes, but I’ve been using it off and on the past year to apply for jobs and have been in touch with a couple of recruiters through it.)

        Reply ↓
  47. Job despair!*

    How do you deal with feeling emotionally ground down in an ongoing job search?

    I’ve been searching without success for two and a half years now. Before that, I was out of work for three due to serious illness, in a highly competitive field which was difficult to get a foothold in even without a job gap. I found some really good Master’s programs that would be willing to take me, but…they’re in a foreign country that won’t issue student visas to people over 35.

    I feel so stuck. I don’t know what to do. I’ve branched out to adjacent fields that I’d be qualified for, but those have an even worse ratio of applicants to positions than my original field.

    Reply ↓
    1. Nemesis*

      That’s really rough. We’re going through this with my partner right now and he’s amazingly well qualified and experienced, it’s like the roles are in a drought. After barely getting any interviews for a year and a half, he just interviewed with two companies that seemed super keen on him: one gave a proforma rejection, the other said he interviewed brilliantly but they decided that he seemed overqualified. It’s genuinely tough.

      Reply ↓
  48. Beyond burnout*

    People who have left a job without anything lined up: how did the conversations go? Especially if you had a long notice period!

    I’m going to be giving my notice in soon whether I have something lined up or not, and I feel like I don’t know the script! I also feel bad because I think I it might feel like it’s coming out of nowhere for my boss and colleagues. I’m just super burned out and need a complete change (job and lifestyle).

    I’m worried both about the initial conversation with my boss and all the conversations during my two month(!) notice period. I would love to hear scripts that would help make it seem very normal and boring…

    Reply ↓
    1. Decidedly Me*

      It’s time for a change and I’m taking some time to figure out what’s next.

      Or say you’re hoping to travel (true or not) – people tend to be on board with the idea of travel time.

      Reply ↓
    2. llama whisperer*

      I was in this place about a year and a half ago. Ended up having a panic attack in my boss’s office and broke down crying telling him I couldn’t do it anymore. Granted we had a close working relationship, and he was well aware of the stress of my personal circumstances, so not a huge surprise. Still wouldn’t recommend going that route :p

      In all reality, I would frame it just as you and others have said: “I am resigning for personal reasons, and I’d like to make this transition as smooth as possible”. Ripping the bandaid off hurts but there’s rest and recovery in your future. It took me about three months of doing nothing before I was ready to start working again. I ended up finding a role fairly quickly in a completely different field that is a better fit with my preferred working style.

      I would also recommend against 2 months of notice. I ended up giving 4 months notice as to complete my project, but I wish I hadn’t. I was so checked out and just counting down the days. I could understand up to a month as a show of goodwill and time to transfer additional information, but even then it’s still above what would ever be expected under most circumstances.

      Reply ↓
      1. Beyond burnout*

        Already done the breakdown on my boss a couple of times, but the last one was a while ago and from the outside I’m doing way better now!

        Notice period is contractual unfortunately, so the most I can get around it is by trying to have it include the time we shut down over Christmas…

        Reply ↓
  49. What is a line manager?*

    What is a line manager? I’ve never understood this term.
    I work for a large company (10’s of thousands of employees), I have an actual manager, who has 50-100 direct reports. My manager assigned me to a project (we’re a project based industry). The project has a hierarchy of managers, leads, technical leads and customer-liasons. A technical lead is the one to directly assign me work. Is that my line manager? Neither the technical lead, nor my manager approve my time-card. (the guy who approves my time-card is director of the project). Is time-card approver my line manager?

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      You asking this makes me realise I don’t entirely know what it means either! I think I assumed that it’s “line” as in on an org chart, who do you have a direct line up to? The technical lead might directly assign you work, but they may at best have a dotted line connection to you, whereas your boss is your actual manager.

      But now I wonder if it’s borrowed from manufacturing, where “line” might be “assembly line” and your line manager is the one managing work on the floor but your actual manager might be someone else.

      In either case, I’ve never used this terminology so I suppose I’ve saved myself from some embarrassment over the years.

      Reply ↓
    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It’s an old term with roots partially in military jargon (line vs staff).

      In your case, I’d say your line manager is the one who puts you on a project – you are a resource that he’s supposed to take care of, he’s responsible for deciding your next project, and theoretically he’s responsible for your professional & corporate development. When your project manager releases you, you return back to your home base under him.

      Reply ↓
    3. PX*

      Ah, places where you do project work in separate teams are messy – this sounds like a matrix organisation.

      In most organisations with simple hierarchies, your line manager is the person directly above you who you report to – they assign you work, approve your time card and would be the person doing your end of year review for example. If you think of an org chart, they are directly connected to you with a line. There is generally often one clear line linking managers and those who report to them.

      In companies like yours, this is not the case. Instead of one single line between people, you have what are often called dotted line relationships. So while you have one official manager, you have multiple other people you report to based on the project (aka dotted line reports). This can make things more complicated, but a simple way to figure out who your line manager is is by asking the question: “when you do your end of year evaluation/performance review – who do you talk to?” That person would typically be considered your line manager.

      Reply ↓
  50. Newbie*

    Am I right to want to tell my bosses I’m out of my depth and can’t lead a project they’re asking me to lead?
    My company recently received an insane amount of money to build, design, and implement a nationwide program. 6 months ago I was nominated by my boss (without my input) to start attending a weekly meeting that discussed this project and be the “representative” of my entire department (which includes various teams) to this project. My department is not involved in the designing of the program but more so the communication and educational materials about the program.

    Now, that program design is nearing completion it is time for my department to start figuring out how we’re communicating this program (which will be different in each of the several communities we’re launching in) and the head of my department has asked me to both drive and project manage our entire department’s involvement and planning. I’m being asked to consider work streams that I don’t interact with (say I’m in charge of social media, and I’m being asked to appropriately loop in/consider public relations) as well as my own team’s approach.

    I’ve tried catching up my department to speed but honestly I just feel so out of my depth. I’m only 4 years into my professional career and every other representative from the other department is either senior leadership/or a manager with at minimum 15 years experience. I’ve expressed hesitancy to my dept head and boss about this before but bc our dept was being asked to deliver anything just yet, my concerns were pushed aside and I was repeatedly told it’s a great opportunity for growth so I should be excited about it. Now that its time to deliver products I feel like I need to tell my boss this is just too much for me. I’m happy to help execute, weigh in on strategy but developing for my entire department just feels impossible, especially when I’ve tried to paint my vision for my boss he argues for the exact opposite approach.
    Sorry for the rant I just need some confirmation my gut is right!

    Reply ↓
  51. Data is cool*

    I have a learning disability that makes it difficult to follow conversations during meetings and remember specifics without an agenda, action item recap, and copies of files presented. My ADA accommodation covers that; the problem is when I’m meeting with colleagues outside my team, who usually outrank me. Communicating by email or chat and asking for the files works 80% of the time, but I often get pushback from people who think a quick meeting will settle everything and are unwilling to continue the conversation in writing. I wing it when I can, but sometimes the topic is too important to risk. I suspect telling people I have a learning disability will only result in them not taking me seriously. What can I say to handle this without burning goodwill?

    Reply ↓
    1. dude, who moved my cheese?*

      What happens if you take the meeting and then ask for them to send you the action item recap and relevant files as the meeting is ending?

      Reply ↓
      1. Data is cool*

        I guess I could try that, and just tell them if I’m not understanding them in the moment. Do you think it would come off too presumptuous for a technician to ask that of a director?

        Reply ↓
        1. Tech Industry Refugee*

          I have asked that in meetings with the CEO, even: “Great, I want to make sure that I have all the action items clear – what I heard was, “a” “b” “c” and they are due by Friday at 5pm – do I have that correct?”

          Reply ↓
          1. Data is cool*

            Thanks! For the times when I don’t get that far, do you think “I’m not sure I understood/didn’t quite catch that. This is what I heard, is that correct? What was the next part/what did you say about x?” has enough finesse?

            Reply ↓
    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I assume that the others not knowing you have an ADA accommodation is part of the problem, unfortunately. I’m a former admin person and I am too familiar with colleagues who don’t think it’s their job to take their own notes, record their own action items, etc. and I worry that in lieu of any other information to the contrary, that’s how you may be coming across in a meeting where everyone else does do those things. You’re not doing that, obviously! But they don’t know that and they aren’t mind readers either.

      Assuming your HR isn’t totally useless, can you ask them how to approach this? It’s the bit about them largely being people who outrank you that makes me pause on how to handle this. The things you’re asking for are really administrative and in my experience, short ad hoc meetings with senior folks aren’t likely to have any kind of administrative framework underpinning them. Maybe they should! But that’s a broader process question that maybe your accommodation can prompt as a discussion point, but may not offer an immediate solution.

      If HR can’t help, I think I’d probably give up on the idea of getting an agenda in advance for quick meetings. But once the meeting is on, can you make a note to yourself to always ask for a summary of the action items at the end? I do take my own notes in a lot of meetings, but I still like to summarize who will do what at the end in case I missed anything, and it gives someone an opportunity to chime in where needed. If the meetings are online, can you record them so that you have an opportunity to rewatch them to catch the things you missed?

      Reply ↓
      1. Data is cool*

        That might work. At least I’d know if I needed to follow up with questions and could make my own summary.

        Reply ↓
  52. Not Jobless (Yet)*

    I’ve posted a couple of times about my horrible boss who wants to fire me. I’m still hanging in there, and she’s still trying to get rid of me. I have to have regular meetings with her and an HR rep, and it’s very stressful. She thinks it takes me too long to do things, so she wants to put limits on how long I’m allowed to work on projects. The problems here are she doesn’t have realistic expectations for how long it should take, and with the kind of work I do, it can really vary. I think she’s setting me up to fail. I’m thinking about talking to the head of HR to see if there’s any way to deal with this. (For a little background, I’m stuck in this job for now because of health reasons, so I can’t quit or find another job any time soon)

    Reply ↓
    1. HonorBox*

      Talk to the head of HR. Tell them that you are trying to be successful and aren’t able to do so when your boss is trying to set arbitrary deadlines, especially when the work varies. Until and unless there’s a reasonable conversation to determine realistic expectations, you’re spending working hours to meet with your boss and HR with no real actionable outcomes.

      Reply ↓
    2. M2*

      Is it possible to move within your company so you aren’t under this boss?

      I think it is fine to speak to HR but usually there are deadlines for a reason and as a manger it can hold things up if everyone is waiting on something or many projects/parts of projects.

      I once worked a job and then was promoted. The person who took over the job I previously did and who reported to me ended up taking a lot longer to complete tasks (what would take me 2 hours could take this person the entire day). I ended up giving them some leeway and training from me and professionally, but after about 6 months let it known that taking so long (they made some progress but not much) was not sustainable. I spoke with them and HR and we decided it wasn’t a good fit, so they changed departments and it ended up being a better fit for them. I also did this because they worked with me, were receptive to feedback, and were not argumentative, didn’t make excuses, etc.

      Maybe you could move and do other tasks that aren’t deadline oriented? It is normal for managers to give time limits and deadlines on work projects and many managers understand the time limits involved. If I have someone who comes to me and says it will take longer to do X we see if we have that time and if so we come up with a solution or they get that extra time. But usually people can’t push limits on everything or there is another issue.

      Also, depending on the software they might be able to see how long it is taking you to complete something and if you are working or just idle. Could you work for 30 minutes then take a quick break? Are there ways you can come up with a plan with your boss and HR to what needs to get done first and prioritize? Good luck!

      Reply ↓
  53. JustaTech*

    Question about project and time projection.

    My boss has asked me to set up a “percent of time” projection by month for the next 6 months for all the projects I and my (pseudo) direct report (may) have.
    For a couple of these projects that isn’t hard because either they’re stuff that’s the same every month, or because there’s an actual set project plan so I can look at the tasks and go “ok, that will take this many days” etc. But I’ve got several projects where there isn’t a plan yet, and more importantly there isn’t a start date. Like, I know project X will be a lot like Project Z, but I have no idea when Project X will start (and if it overlaps Project Z I am hosed).

    I’ve tried to estimate, going on the assumption that 1 full day of work =5% of the month, but right now I’m looking at the projection and I am already at 100% most months and I haven’t gotten anything in for all of the no-date projects or smaller projects.

    Should I just send it to my boss and flag that there are months over 100% and he needs to decide what will have to be dropped?

    Reply ↓
    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Asterisks, footnotes, etc. are your friends.

      If you don’t know when Project X will start, make your best guess, put a big fat asterisk on it, highlight it in yellow, and explain in text below.

      Don’t force yourself into a numbers-only format if it doesn’t make sense.

      Reply ↓
  54. Probably Burnt Out*

    How do you deal with mental exhaustion? I have to keep up with a lot of information at my job, including learning and knowing about different strategies. I’ve reached the point where I feel like I’m at my mental capacity. I can’t find the enthusiasm or energy to add bullet points or create goals for other people’s work. I want to, but it’s like my brain can’t focus on another thing. I know I’m burning out. The company seems to pride itself on overextending people.

    Reply ↓
  55. Office clerk*

    (I mostly want to know if what I said in my self evaluation was okay, and I’m giving a lot of context.)

    I’m an office clerk at a law firm, primarily handling administrative tasks like setting up conference rooms, answering phones, and managing kitchen supplies. From what I understand, this role used to resemble that of a legal assistant, but management has shifted it toward more general admin work.

    In my recent self-evaluation, I suggested that there should be more clarity on what tasks clerks are responsible for versus what legal assistants and paralegals handle.

    For example, I was asked to create a cover page for a real estate closing binder without any training, which was overwhelming since I have no real estate background. While I managed to do a decent job, I felt out of my depth.

    I’ve become hesitant to go above and beyond because of past experiences where extra effort didn’t lead to promotions or recognition. I also don’t want to be a lawyer or go into law of any kind.

    But mostly, I’m trying to set boundaries and hope my performance review clarifies what’s expected of clerks versus legal assistants. If jobs like this are more the norm going forward, I just need to know that that’s a possibility. I’m happy to help out, but I need a clearer understanding of where my responsibilities end, especially since my role was designed to be more administrative.

    Was this an ok ask, given the context laid out?

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It never hurts to put in the business implications.

      “I’m concerned about the real estate cover sheet thing, because I don’t want to create any risk to the firm’s reputation or create a contract ambiguity, due to my unfamiliarity with the rules and general customs about it.”

      Reply ↓
    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      You felt out of your depth, but were you out of your depth? It’s easy to feel like we’re out of our depth on a new tasks, but did the person who ultimately needed the closing binder think you did a good job?

      All that aside, I think it’s always good to know who does what, especially in an org that might have roles with similar titles but different functions, e.g. admin assistant vs legal assistant. Not just so you’re not working on things you don’t feel equipped/trained for, but also so that you can re-direct where appropriate. “Oh, actually, Jane would be a better person to ask about making that cover sheet, the legal assistants typically handle the closing binders” or whatever.

      I think it’s fair that if a task involves involves something that could be legally binding for the firm, that a legal assistant handles it. It’s in their name!

      That said, a cover page feels like something an admin person should be able to tackle, but I wonder if it’s worth having the legal assistants draft templates for things that might need a legal lens but that could be executed by the admins? I don’t know what goes into a cover for a real estate closing binder, but if the legal assistants know that it always has to include the firm’s contract number, the tax number of the real estate agent, etc. then they can set up a template that includes all those bits. The admins can then just recycle that template whenever they need to complete this task without having to run it by legal again.

      Reply ↓
      1. hypoglycemic rage*

        whoops outed myself with my username. posted this on my phone and replying to comments on my work desktop.

        anyway. I LOVE the idea of a template. I think part of my issue with this is that I didn’t really have much direction. the attorney just gave me documents, and the paralegal gave me a past example of what it should look like in the end. like, I’m sure this isn’t a big deal for someone who does this kind of stuff more often, but when the documents don’t clearly fit in one of the categories like in the example cover sheet I was given, I don’t have enough knowledge to be able to figure out which document goes to which section. because I am not a paralegal or legal assistant. I’ve seen a couple other closing cover pages, and they didn’t l00k like the example I was given, so I wonder if it’s the same thing every time or varies depending on who the client is?

        Reply ↓
        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          This is fair, and something worth bringing up if you go the template route, e.g. here’s what the cover page looks like for individual people/families buying a residential home vs a commercial client buying a warehouse vs [insert other permutations of buyer and real estate type here].

          Reply ↓
          1. hypoglycemic rage*

            yeah!!! I would have also appreciated a quick “this is what a closing binder is” kind of thing, maybe also a quick outline of the process if possible, as maybe some context would have helped even a little for the documents that weren’t so clear.

            Reply ↓
    3. CTT*

      Along the lines of what Carmel and Cheddar said, I think feeling out of depth vs. actual ability to do it are two separate things. Depending on the size of office, you may have to jump in to help if someone’s out.

      I am a real estate lawyer and was once a real estate paralegal, so I have dealt with many a closing binder in my time (working on one today, even!), and my first instinct was “the binder cover isn’t a legal document in of itself, just slap the names and dates on there and be done with it,” but I also know that locating said names and dates is difficult if you don’t do this type of work. Did the person who assigned you this give you past examples and what documents would have the information you need? I think given the way clients want to spend less and admin positions are being streamlined in law firms, you are going to get some admin-level legal work coming your way in the future and that will be along the lines of binder covers (or anything else that needs to be done but won’t look like legal work to a client reading the bill), so while I think that was a good thing to put in your evaluation, it’s also going to be helpful to proactively about templates/examples when you get a new assignment like that.

      Reply ↓
      1. hypoglycemic rage*

        So for this instance specifically, the paralegal gave me a past example of a closing cover page she did, which was appriciated. But it had separate sections for each step in the legal process, and then which documents went in that section.

        I looked at the example and tried to pair documents that I had with the example she had, but not all the documents matched or were easy to locate name/information. I didn’t know what to do with the documents that were not clearly titled/labeled. I’m sure someone with real estate experience would be able to figure it out, but I don’t have the real estate experience.

        Anyway, I don’t mind helping out like this every once in awhile if that’s what’s needed, I just want to set some boundaries because I don’t want to be doing the work of a legal assistant but getting paid a clerk’s salary, you know?

        “anything else that needs to be done but won’t look like legal work to a client reading the bill” this is good to keep in mind!! I don’t know much about billing, but a great point.

        Reply ↓
    4. ferrina*

      It depends on the size of the firm, your job description, and the sanity of management.

      The size matters a lot because if it’s a smaller organization, the expectation is that everyone will wear different hats.
      Your job description should also help here. It should give some guidance of whether creating documents (of any kind, even the minor sort) is in the scope of your role. If it’s not in your job description, I’d use language similar to what Alton Brown’s Evil Twin or Carmel & Cheddar said- “I’m sorry, that’s really outside my wheelhouse and I don’t want to risk anything going wrong!”
      That said, sometimes job descriptions are nebulously written or just plain ignored, and that’s where the sanity of management comes in. Do they care about legal risk? Have they offered guidance on what you should/shouldn’t be doing? or do they like to remain vague and spout out things like “we all pitch in to get the job done”, then throw people under the bus when underqualified/untrained people inevitably make mistakes? (Why yes, I have worked for this person). As the great Captain Awkward says, “reasons are for reasonable people”, so if your management is unreasonable, all bets are off.

      Reply ↓
      1. hypoglycemic rage*

        when I interviewed for this role, and looked at my own job description of when I applied to this role awhile ago, it was definitely more on the admin side. projects for people might be something that’s asked, but it would be along the lines of scanning documents or something like that. not creating actual documents that would go out to clients – which might be a part of why this bothers me so much, since it would eventually go out to the client, even if someone else reviews my work.

        Reply ↓
  56. Amber Rose*

    Tiny update from last week: my husband wrote an email in my name to my previous employer asking for the docs I need. The response I got was exactly as nasty, hurtful and cruel as I expected from the place that fired me illegally and I’m still hurting… but unexpectedly they still sent the docs. So I guess it’s a wash. I need to take 4 more courses and then all that’s left is to submit and hope for the best.

    How long am I gonna grieve that miserable place.

    Reply ↓
    1. The Prettiest Curse*

      Oh, I’m so glad you were able to email them, good for you. I’m sorry that they were awful to you, but I’m glad that you now have the documents you need. And I hope that you never have to contact those fucking people ever again.

      Reply ↓
    2. Procedure Publisher*

      I’m glad that you got what you needed. I hope you are able to knock out those courses and the best does happen for you.

      Reply ↓
    3. Ellie*

      I’m glad you got the docs you needed (that was nice of your husband). Hopefully, you will never have to think of them again!

      Reply ↓
    4. HonorBox*

      I don’t remember the exact timeline he presents, but Dan Savage talks about grieving a relationship for a certain amount of time based on the length of the relationship. Give yourself time to grieve. If you were there for two years, it might take a couple of months. It is totally normal. You were wronged, and that’s going to sting for awhile. But there’s good coming your way… I know it!

      Reply ↓
    5. Ellis Bell*

      Your husband sounds awesome. As for your old company, leave them to their misery and let their own pettiness eat them alive; there clearly was never any problem with them sending you the documents, so why did they make such a drama?

      Reply ↓
  57. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

    After about 2 months of unemployment and ~125 applications, I finally have a job offer — that I don’t want to take. The pay is decent and is in a low CoL area, but the area is low CoL for a reason (extremely high crime rate) and I’d be moving there alone. (I moved to my current city alone for grad school, but I’d at least visited first and had met some of the other students and faculty first.) The job is similar to other ones I’ve been interviewing for but has some added challenges that I could probably rise to, but which I think will cause a lot of additional stress that I don’t want. I have to give them an answer today.

    I have another interview in a couple weeks that I’m flying out to (at a more prestigious institution, and they seemed to REALLY like me in the screening interview so I think I’ve got a very good chance there). I’ve also sent follow-up emails to a couple other jobs I interviewed with but never heard back from (since it’s been a while I assume they’ve gone with other candidates, but I figure the worst that can happen is they say they’re not interested and I’m no worse off than before I sent the follow-ups).

    Right now I see my options as:

    1. Taking the offer and canceling my upcoming interview (risking moving to a town I’m positive I’ll dislike for a job that has a higher chance of going badly than similar jobs)
    2. Taking the offer and rescinding if something else comes along (risking burning that bridge and also possibly risking not getting an answer from another job until after I move there)
    3. Turning down the offer (risking not getting another offer for another 2 months and ~125 job applications)

    I feel like the smartest choice is option 2, but I’m kind of torn between that and option 3. I don’t want this job for a variety of reasons — I just don’t know if it’s worth the risk of not getting another one for a while. My friends and family are split on advice — basically no one thinks I should take option 1, but some people lean towards option 2 and others towards option 3.

    I know this is kinda long, and I’m not sure exactly what my question is — I guess, if you’ve been in a similar situation, what did you decide? Or what do you think you’d choose in this situation? Is there another option I’m not considering?

    Reply ↓
    1. Alex*

      Moving isn’t cheap. If you didn’t have to move, I would go with #2, but the move makes me think that #3 is a better option, if you possibly can.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

        That’s a good point — I probably have to move anyways (if I turn down this one and don’t get any job, I’m probably going to move back to my hometown and stay with my parents) but it’s a risk to plan a move that I might back out of. Thank you!

        Reply ↓
    2. WellRed*

      No. 3. I’m sure you’re sick of looking but 2 months is nothing in terms of job searching. You’ve already gotten interviews and one offer. I’d say that bodes well for you to stick it out a bit longer.

      Reply ↓
      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        This. Getting interviews and offers means both your resume and interview skills are working fine. It’s tough out there right now, so while two months and 125 applications feels dire, a lot of that can probably be chalked up to how many other people are also looking for work. The odds aren’t always going to be in your favour, unfortunately, because it’s a numbers game.

        Reply ↓
        1. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

          Yeah, I think this has felt tough because the last time I was job searching while unemployed (2015) I think I sent out like 10-20 applications and got the first job I interviewed for — I think one thing that has helped in the past month is that I reformatted my resume (based on advice from this site) and started focusing on a specific job title that I really want. Thank you!

          Reply ↓
      2. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

        Thank you! I am still tempted to buy myself a little time by verbally accepting today and thinking about it more over the weekend, but I know you’re also right that two months is nothing (and I also really hope you’re right that the interviews bode well for me — fingers crossed!).

        Reply ↓
    3. Procedure Publisher*

      Some recruiters were discussing on LinkedIn about when a company rescinds an offer, and it was brought up that a potential hire will rescind the offer. Might be a conversation to look into if you consider going with option 2. However, option 2 seems like not that great considering you would need to move. If I was feeling like I was getting feeling like I will be a job offer from a place I’ll be interviewing with, I would go with option 3.

      Do you have a deadline for when you need to reply to the offer?

      Reply ↓
      1. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

        I have to reply to them today — one reason I’ve thought about going with 2 is to buy myself a little time and do more research before I actually start planning the move. From the advice I’ve gotten here and from more conversations with family, though, I think I’m gonna go with 3 — it’s a scary to turn down an offer when I haven’t had any others yet, but it’s probably the right choice.

        Reply ↓
    4. I treated you like a son*

      Considering you have to move, are they giving you a further out start date than normal? If so, I would choose #2: Don’t cancel the interview – after that you’ll probably have a better gauge on whether that job is better and how much they like you. If you don’t get a good feeling from it, you can still take the original job

      Reply ↓
      1. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

        They said they’re willing to negotiate the start date and will cover a chunk (2k) of my moving expenses — I’d probably have a month ish until the start date. I’m definitely not canceling the interview — I would absolutely take that job over the one I have an offer from in a heartbeat. Thank you for sharing your perspective!

        Reply ↓
  58. Sawbones*

    An employee has given me her two weeks notice and I’m back in the hiring stage again.
    I had a previous employee (Jane) who left my employ about six months ago as she received a job opportunity with more responsibilities and a pay raise that I could not match (A promotion basically)
    I’ve recently found out that Jane is not very happy in her new job. She had previously liked the culture where we work and the two of us had a good employee employer relationship. if she were interested in working with me again, it would be the same job that she had with me before. I would still not be able to match her salary at her new job – Her pay rate would be pretty similar to what she was receiving with me before. I would not be able to give her the same responsibilities that she had there (which she may not want anyway).
    if I were to consider hiring again, would this be taking a significant risk? I was happy with her work, but I’d consistently be concerned that she’d be in the market for a higher paying job. However, I suppose that this is a concern with all employees. I currently pay a salary at the higher end of the pace scale for the job that I’m hiring for, so I don’t think I’m being unfair with regards to pay.

    Any thoughts?

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      In my experience, boomerang employees are more likely to leave again. There’s probably always going to be a little bit of “the grass is always greener” going on in her head.

      So yes it’s a concern. Is there anything non-salary you can do to sweeten the pot? Other kinds of learning or growth opportunities?

      Reply ↓
    2. Cordelia*

      Jane may not be happy in her new job, but that doesn’t mean she wants to take a cut in pay and come back to you, she has other options. She has shown she is capable of getting hired for jobs with more responsibilities and more pay, so she can search for another one of those. Why would she want a demotion?

      Reply ↓
      1. ferrina*

        Yeah, it’s pretty unlikely that Jane would be willing to take a demotion. I wouldn’t recommend reaching out and asking Jane if she wants her old job back- that would be pretty presumptuous.

        If you and Jane have casual contact, you can reach out and ask if Jane knows anyone that she might refer to the job. You can let her know that you are hiring for her old role, and if she knows someone that she thinks might be a good fit, you would love for her to send them your way. That’s it. On the (very slight) chance that Jane does want to come back, she knows it’s an option.

        Reply ↓
        1. HonorBox*

          Second paragraph = perfect. You had a good relationship with Jane and probably trust her judgement about someone she might recommend. Jane knows you and can probably speak well of working for you. And there is a chance, albeit small, that Jane is the one she’d recommend. Open the door a crack and let her kick it wide open if she wants.

          I don’t know that I’d put too much thought into her desire to leave again, though. That’s always going to be true with anyone. But if she comes back, you might also have someone who is signing on for longer because she does recognize that the grass isn’t always greener…

          Reply ↓
  59. BellaStella*

    Hope that everyone who is looking for a new gig gets their best one yet with good interviews and sane, amazing managers, and more money and better commuting times.

    Also hope that those of you who have tough jobs that things get better soon.

    My enthusiasm for my HR team (especially the new guy who seems really on the ball) over last months has faded. I am applying this weekend for a new job and started to look as the bees in this office have this week driven off four more people (out of 110, these four make a total of 12 who left this year so far).

    BUT good news, I posted the ‘how do I become a more empathic senior manager’ post from here (more kind? cannot remember exact title) on my Linkedin and it got A LOT of hits and likes. Thanks as always Alison for the great blog and advice to all the writers and to the commentariat for all the great advice and laughs and much more. You are all treasures.

    Reply ↓
  60. Mutually supportive*

    Procrastination/habit builder apps: helpful, or just yet another thing to pay for and forget to use?

    I’ve been having problems with procrastination both at work and at home. I have been getting better at being more focused at work but it takes some effort, and procrastination outside of work also impacts my ability to work well (such as eating too much sugar and going to bed late make it hard to sleep, so I’m tired, so it’s hard to concentrate.

    I’ve started getting loads of adverts on social feeds for various apps that promise to help me sort myself out (one describes itself as being like Duolingo), and also ads that tell me that procrastination is actual a cortisol imbalance.

    So
    – has anyone used these apps?
    – are they helpful?
    – has anyone heard of the cortisol imbalance thing and is there any truth to it?

    I’m in the UK and neurotypical if that makes any difference. I am also trying to get my head into a better place to eat well generally and cut out the sugar binges which I’m sure as psychological because I eat plenty of calories, including protein, at both breakfast and lunchtime.

    Thank you!

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      The only apps I’ve ever used for that kind of problem are the website blockers, and they did the trick.

      Reply ↓
      1. BlueFrenchHorn*

        I used to use Habitica to build habits like daily 15 mins of exercise or even something basic like using moisturiser before bed. The one thing that bugged me, though, that it wasn’t possible to pause tasks – like when you’re I’ll or on vacation – and so I kept losing my streak which felt disappointing.

        I’ve been using Finch instead now for about three months and enjoying it. The design ist cute and whimsical, but there are lots of good suggestions for habits you may want to try (work, health, etc.) and generally a very intuitive user interface. Plus it’s easy to pause any task. So if you’re okay with something fairly playful in appearance, might be worth a try.

        Reply ↓
  61. Justin*

    You ever tip someone off to a job opportunity and find out they completely blow the HR screen? Like, the screen that is mostly just, tell me about yourself and your interest, checking off boxes.

    This has happened to me twice now (I didn’t necessarily recommend them, I just told them about the opportunities, had no reason to believe they’d do poorly).

    It’s pretty disappointing.

    Reply ↓
    1. ferrina*

      Yep. In my case, I knew the person was a bit of a wild card and we had a small enough company that I knew both HR and the hiring manager. I told both that I had told Candidate about the opening, but Candidate was a friend that I had never worked with, so I couldn’t speak to his professional skills.

      He got an interview based on my name, but blew the interview. Luckily neither HR nor Hiring Manager saw it as a reflection on me. I was sad that he had undermined himself, but at the same time, it’s his life and he didn’t drag me with him.

      Reply ↓
      1. Justin*

        In this most recent case, I told her the job was opening and she seemed excited about it. Great. I told her I could probably get her to the screen but she had to perform to get through that (there were 20 people screened).

        She blew it on a basically obvious question. The job is technically able to be performed in most states (37 I believe, just because adding a new state and its laws/taxes is expensive and we have employees in those 37 already). Accordingly, even though it’s only state law, we post the salary range, as we should.

        The last question in the interview is always, “the posted salary range is X to X+20k. Is that alright with you?”

        And she said no.

        My friend, you want to try and negotiate outside of a range, you gotta get an offer.

        A lot of the people screened (including the person who got the job) said, “I’d like it towards the higher end” or something. Which is fine! And good!

        (And to be clear we pay very well for the field.)

        So I was just really surprised. If the salary didn’t work for her, I was surprised she bothered to apply at all.

        Another time the person turned out to be really unstable in ways I didn’t realize (they were a friend from college). I feel bad she’s going through it but it came off that way in the interview.

        Reply ↓
        1. DisneyChannelThis*

          That doesn’t sound like messing up in an interview. That sounds like she knows what her worth is and what she’s willing to work for, and the job you recommended to her isn’t it . Especially if it’s like less than she’s currently making type deal. It’s better to bow out than waste everyone time until the very end when you know you’re too far apart on salary.

          Reply ↓
          2. Decidedly Me*

            That’s only true if you don’t know the range going in, though. I applied to a job that was lower than I’d like, but was willing to take it at top of range only, which I express during my interview. I also expressed that I thought they were a little low for the market and they ended up coming up from that initial range, which was great! I wouldn’t have wasted my time or theirs if I wasn’t willing to take something in the posted range, though.

            Reply ↓
  62. AnonToday*

    If you were on the job search and found out that a position you were excited about and quite qualified for was never actually open, would you want to know?

    For context, I have a colleague that is looking for work after a layoff and applied to an open position at my company. They didn’t make it far in the interview process. I have since learned that the position was created for a specific person, and while the company did advertise the position internally and externally, it was always likely going to the pre-specified person.

    I know layoffs can be demoralizing and wanted to let my colleague know that there wasn’t a problem with their interview or qualifications, but also don’t want them to feel bad about wasting time on a position that wasn’t really an option.

    Reply ↓
    1. ferrina*

      It depends on the person.
      I know some people that truly believe in merit-based processes, and they would be stunned to hear that the job wasn’t really there. It would demoralize them.
      On the other hand, I’m someone who would appreciate knowing that there is no useful data to be gained from this experience. Plus I’m fully aware that things like this happens, as I’ve been on the hiring side when we had to drop a great candidate for reasons that had nothing to do with the candidate. So I’ve been able to really internalize that luck is essential in a job search.

      I’d say don’t bring it up unless your friend says something first. Play it by ear.

      Reply ↓
  63. HummusAndChips*

    Clothing recommendation for MEN: Does anyone have any recommendations to relatively affordable business casual clothing brands/websites for men? I’m looking for new clothing to rotate in my wardrobe as I’ve been wearing the same outfits for most of the year. I work in a casual office setting not public facing but I am also in management. Thank you!

    Reply ↓
      1. Alex*

        Banana republic factory as well! My personal favorite for my “fancy” work clothes. They have great sales sometimes too.

        Reply ↓
    3. Somehow I Manage*

      I’ve found some really great stuff at Marshall’s. You never know exactly what will be in the store, but if you can figure out when new inventory comes in each week, you can get in and find some cool stuff at great prices.

      For example, I wear a lot of polos at work. I found Adidas polos for $19.99 versus paying $55 at a different store. The shirt I’m wearing right now (short sleeve, patterned button down) came from there for $12.

      Reply ↓
  64. sad because it really was very fun and fulfilling*

    A bit of a depressing one: my employer is about to go into massive cuts/restructuring, and while people seem to think I’ll keep my job at least for now (I’m trying to prepare for the worst just in case, though) it’s already getting significantly worse in terms of workload and atmosphere. Does anyone have advice for dealing with when a job you loved – and yeah, I really did love this one – takes a sharp downturn? I don’t want to leave if I can help it, for very-difficult-to-get-into-profession-plus-visa-stuff reasons, but I know I’m going to have to deal with feeling a lot worse about my job long-term, plus likely being able to give less individual attention to clients, etc. I’m already on the hunt for a therapist and trying (…trying) to find ways to protect my downtime and hobbies, but honestly any other tips are hugely appreciated!

    Reply ↓
    1. Been There*

      I went through something like this (job I truly loved took sharp downturn) and ended up leaving, but after giving it another year for various reasons. I invested less of myself into the role, focused more on my hobbies, and gave myself more breaks during the day. I still did what was needed of me, but not more. I focused on the people that needed me (in my case, team members and customers) and didn’t make much time for overall business things.

      Reply ↓
  65. epicdemiologist*

    I had an interesting experience at a recent professional conference.

    For the sake of confidentiality, let’s say I was attending a panel on contingency planning for teapot preservation. The panelists were all educators in this subject area.

    During the Q&A, I asked the panel “What’s your favorite example of teapot preservation? I realize it’s never possible to do a perfect job, but what’s one you could hold up to your students and say ‘This is what it looks like when it goes well’?”

    There was a stunned silence. None of the panelists could think of an example of successful teapot preservation. The moderator offered an example of a teapot-damaging incident in which one teapot ended up better preserved than another, providing a useful contrast.

    My question for the group is: Whatever your work is, shouldn’t there be SOME example in history (either your company’s own history, or history at large!) of when someone did it well, to which you could direct the attention of someone who was learning to do it? And if your industry doesn’t talk about examples of the job done well–why not?

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      This is an excellent question! I’m in engineering, so yeah we have a zillion case studies of both the really good and the really bad.

      Reply ↓
  66. Knitting As Foci*

    Tiny good news: after far too long searching, I’m employed again. It’s part time, but it’s something. It’s temporary (3-4 weeks), but it’s something. Also, it’s been 3 weeks (first day was Oct 4) and the number of case files I was assigned today alone was almost half again as much as the total number I already had.

    I think I might be sticking around for a while, and I want to thank Ask A Manager for nailing the interview.

    Reply ↓
    1. Knitting As Foci*

      Turns out, when you have to call people a lot, it really matters the type of call you’re making. In just three weeks, I no longer heavily dislike making phone calls. Whodathunk.

      Reply ↓
  67. A Nonny Nonny*

    Layoffs are coming to my company. No one knows yet. I only know because I’m in a role where I’m a second brain for my boss, and my boss is involved in deciding who is laid off. My boss is heartbroken about it. We’ve had a bad financial year (neither my boss nor I is involved in that). The bigwigs have tried to put a positive spin on it, but everyone knows it was rough. I just don’t think they know how rough. My boss has tried to indicate my job is safe, but I know he can’t guarantee anything.
    The company morale is already iffy, and more changes are coming in a few months that no one knows about. I believe in these changes. I think they will take the company in a better direction. But we need people to adopt the changes.

    Has anyone seen a company do a layoff and pivotal changes in a short time, and end up on top? What helped the people get through it? Also, this is my first time knowing about layoffs before they happen. How do you get through the stress?

    Reply ↓
    1. Procedure Publisher*

      Sending you good vibes. It will be rough based on what I experienced in the last year of my job before being laid off.

      That last year included grand boss passing away unexpectedly, org changes resulting in a new management position two or three above my manager, and constant changes to where various procedure teams were located in the org chart. Most of the changes I felt were taking us in a better direction, but the constant changing of which grand manager my manager reported to could have been avoided if the grand boss hadn’t passed away.

      I think the clear communication being done helped a lot to make it easier to digest the change. We were part of org that delivered, so that might have help. I think having others see that changes are taking the company in a better direction will help with getting buy in for these changes.

      Reply ↓
    2. Panicked*

      Communication, communication, communication. Talk to them about the changes and HOW those changes are going to help. It’s not enough to give them the what, you have to give them the how and why as well. Best of luck to you!

      Reply ↓
  68. Burned out operations person*

    What do you do when a career change doesn’t seem to work out? I’ve been at my current company for about five years, and earlier this year I shifted from a role I’m experienced in and very good at (QA) to a role that I have a lot of the skills for but have no hands-on experience doing (product operations).

    Almost nine months in, I’m not happy. The last few weeks I’ve spent at least one day a week constantly feeling like crying every day, but reserving at least one full evening every week just to cry out my feelings isn’t sustainable. It probably doesn’t help that the company is going through a lot of change right now and a lot of the crap is rolling down to me and my new team, where I would have been somewhat insulated from it if I hadn’t made the move. I’m also dealing with personal issues that make it hard to concentrate at work. My new manager keeps micromanaging my social skills during meetings in the vein of feedback but has few other critiques of my actual work, but he also doesn’t have much specific positive feedback.

    I can hardly get any substantial work done because half my time is spent in meetings and there’s not much time for deep work in the half hour in between meetings because I have to jot down the questions to ask and items to check in on for the rest of the day’s meetings so I don’t forget and so I can report on them to the stakeholders because my medical issues make my memory fuzzy sometimes. For the armchair diagnosers out there, I don’t have a neurodiverse diagnosis but I won’t eliminate the possibility.

    I enjoy my old role but it’s a small team with little turnover, and career advancement is primarily becoming a QA manager, which I’m not interested in, especially at this company due to the leadership team. I’m paid very well and would probably take a pay cut if I leave. I could afford it, but it would make my savings goals less comfortable. What do I do?

    Reply ↓
    1. PX*

      If you want to find some community, there is a great Product Ops Slack community called Product Ops HQ and there are also some people in the Product Led Alliance Slack community.

      Having said that, if you hate the job, you hate the job. And if your manager sucks, your manager sucks (which it sounds like he does). Personally I’d focus on the medical/personal issues first. If you need to take time off to resolve those, do it – but to me, you are unlikely to have any chance of success until you’re in a better state mentally.

      After that, I’d work on figuring out whether you like/want the job or not. If yes, figure out how to deal with your manager – whether thats by managing up, getting help from elsewhere, getting accommodations etc. If no, figure out where you want to go and start working towards it.

      Reply ↓
      1. Burned out operations person*

        A little of the role and the company, not necessarily the industry. My new team has had high turnover over the years that it has existed, and my company loves upending everything for the “ooh shiny” factor at least once every couple of years, and we’re in the middle of that right now.

        Reply ↓
  69. Procedure Publisher*

    Last week I had a recruiter screen for a job and found out I was moving forward in the process the next day (less than 24 hours after the interview). The next step was a simulation of writing a procedure that I returned last Friday. Then on Monday, the hiring manager reached out to me to schedule an interview for this upcoming Tuesday! I’ve never had this quick of a turnaround for a job.

    I have so many good feelings about this job that I don’t want to blow my interview. So does anyone have any favorite interview tips? I’m planning on digging in the archives to find some good questions to ask of the hiring manager. The interview will include two people who will be my peers in this new role.

    Reply ↓
      1. The Phrase Ferret*

        Come with questions for the hiring manager AND peers. Then, when you write thank you notes after, you can reference something specific for each person.

        Reply ↓
  70. PIPped*

    Am I likely to ever be asked in an interview if I’ve ever been put on a PIP?

    When I was 18 I worked in a seasonal hospitality fulltime job for 6 months. There were about 40 of us my age, we had 2 managers who were I think 23 and never done it before, and it was pretty chaotic. We were supposed to fill in daily forms recording the food temperatures, if we forgot and the manager saw that this had happened, we’d get put on a PIP for a week or 2 which would involve the manager checking our logs daily. I don’t think what PIP stood for was ever explained, I think we had a vague idea that it meant you were in trouble, but I had no idea they were a thing in jobs generally. I was put on PIP for about a week once I believe, but I had nearly forgotten about it and only remembered recently from reading this blog. I must have forgotten to record the food temperatures, but I know I was always careful about checking them, so it was a recording issue not being careless with safety if that makes sense.

    Is this something that might get asked in an interview? And is there any way I can make it sound not so bad, or will they automatically hold it against me?

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      “I was 18 and goofed up some paperwork. It was totally my fault, no doubt about it. They had a kind of weird way to do PIPs, and I passed it in a week.”

      I doubt anybody is going to hold that against you too hard.

      Reply ↓
    2. Somehow I Manage*

      I’ve never thought to ask that of someone. I could see something about how you process feedback, or how you handle a situation when you’ve made a mistake, but personally I think asking someone if they’ve ever been on a PIP would come across in a very adversarial way.

      Reply ↓
    3. ferrina*

      It’s unlikely, but if you ever do get asked, simply tell the truth.
      You were 18 and you messed up the records. You understand that you were in the wrong, and you corrected it. The PIP consisted of the manager double checking your record-keeping for 2 weeks; you passed your PIP and have been diligent about your record-keeping ever since.

      Any decent manager won’t hold it against you. You were super young, messed up (in a pretty common way), and you took feedback well and course-corrected. Those are all things that speak well of your character.

      Reply ↓
    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      If feel like you’re unlikely to be asked this, and if for some reason you are, I can’t imagine that being on one for a seasonal job when you were eighteen is germane to the job you’re interviewing for. If I asked you that in an interview and you said “Once, when I was eighteen in a seasonal job”, I would probably not worry about anything you said afterwards unless it was truly egregious. I think most people assume that teenagers do dumb stuff in jobs and it probably isn’t relevant years and years later.

      Reply ↓
    5. Decidedly Me*

      I have never been asked this question and I’ve never asked it as a hiring manager. Even if you were asked, I think it’d be a non-issue with a short explanation.

      Reply ↓
  71. Nursing/pumping mom*

    What do you put in your calendar for pumping time? Both what do you call the event and how long do you block off?

    Reply ↓
    1. The Phrase Ferret*

      I just put “busy” and would block off about 30 minutes because I had to go to a different floor to pump. If I had been able to stay at my desk, 20 minutes probably would have been sufficient.

      Reply ↓
  72. Safety Reality Check*

    I have a question for people who handle the info that goes on safety docs – the kind that go out to help people avoid accidents.

    Recently at work there was a briefing because the stats were showing an increase in a certain type of accident – I’m going to say sharps/cuts for this. The briefing included a photo of one of the injuries. The only warning we got was “if you’re squeamish, look away now”. And since the image was on the same slides as all the words, and there was no similar mention it had been removed, it felt… wrong.

    So, my question is, what level of graphic is okay during a work safety presentation?

    Reply ↓
  73. the bake is a pie*

    Remote careers where you’re helping people/communities?

    I currently work as a marketing content writer and I’m dying inside as AI moves in and I spend my precious days trying to convince people to choose our products.

    I would love to pivot to something where I’m helping people or causes in some way. I’m already looking to see if there are nonprofits that need writers, but honestly I’d be happy to shift careers if needed, and would appreciate any ideas.

    It does have to be remote as my partner’s job requires us to move somewhat frequently, but open to most anything!

    Reply ↓
  74. Jessen*

    Can anyone give me any networking tips for remote workers and/or nontraditional students?

    I’m feeling like I’m in a weird spot because as a remote worker I don’t get as much exposure to other people in the job, but I’m also not really in a place to be benefiting from a lot of the student opportunities that are aimed at early career people. Mostly because I can’t really do things like summer internships because I’m already working full time and don’t intend to quit my job for something temporary and significantly lower paid. (And unfortunately my personal connections kinda got torpedoed over some matters of gender identity.)

    The workplace I’m in is very siloed in terms of who you interact with and taking on projects outside of your role is really not an option – which is frustrating because that seems to be the most recommended action. But it leaves me unsure of how to make connections in a situation where I feel very isolated. For context I’m a frontline IT support worker looking to transfer into a more advanced field, likely looking at data analysis or documentation. I’m doing a cybersecurity and computer support program and adding in an emphasis on cloud computing.

    Reply ↓
  75. The Phrase Ferret*

    My manager hardly ever talks to me. No regular check ins. It’s been this way for the five years we’ve worked together. I don’t think I’ve ever had a proper performance review during this time either (but I do get the standard COLA when they are available). While I appreciate that I have a great deal of autonomy and my job is free of micromangement, it’s really isolating. I’ve probably let this go on for too long, but is there anyway to make my feelings about wanting to meet regularly, get feedback, etc. in a professional way?

    Reply ↓
  76. Michelle*

    How often is it appropriate to reach out to customer service of a company when they’re not responding to you? I had issues with two different companies this month. I reached out to a major regional magazine about a problem with my subscription and received a form response that didn’t answer my problem at all, but invited me to respond if I need more help. So I did. That was on a Monday. When I didn’t hear from them by Friday I reached out again. Then again the following Tuesday. On Wednesday I reached out via social media. They finally responded to me on Thursday – no apologies just, “We’ve corrected the problem.” Almost two weeks to actually respond to me!

    I also bought some yarn that got lost in the mail. I reached out to that company on a Thursday, got a form reply that they’d be with me soon, and then another apologizing for the wait on Monday. I still hadn’t gotten an actual response, so I reached out again on Tuesday. On Wednesday they issued me store credit to replace my items, but the code doesn’t work. I told them about that on Wednesday, but now it’s Friday and no reply and they’re closed for the day (different time zone). Am I too impatient? To me, it feels reasonable to expect a reply within a business day or two?

    Reply ↓

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