open thread – November 22, 2024

by Alison Green on November 22, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Llama Wrangler*

    My job just posted a new manager role for our department. It’s not an expansion of headcount, it’s just an internal posting for a new senior level title that hasn’t existed previously. It seems clear to me that the job description was scoped with a specific person in mind because the work describes a specific set of work the most senior member of my team was already lead on. But our current department head hasn’t said that explicitly, and hasn’t shared anything about what this means for the department’s org chart. The TL;DR of my question is: I’m in my feelings about this change (partly because I don’t like change, partly because I’m worried it will make an already unpleasant environment more unpleasant) and I’m not sure what’s reasonable to ask about / advocate for, and when (e.g. now vs when the promotion is made).

    The most relevant, question is – at what point do I ask my manager about the implications for my work? The reporting structure for my team overall will definitely be shifting, but I don’t know whether it will for my role or not. I’d like to advocate to continue reporting to my current manager, because they’re a good manager, and also because creating another level between me and C-level staff means that I’m further removed from some decision making I’d like to be involved in.

    I also have concerns that having this person move into management will ultimately mean my workload goes up – because some of John’s non management work will probably get distributed to me and other ICs on my team as he takes on managing people. I already have more than a full time job’s worth of work (we all do!), and while John is really good at a number of things, I was already playing backstop for him on some projects that if he’s stretched thin, I’ll likely have to fill in even more.

    Finally, I’m not sure that I would want the role anyway, because I like being an IC, but is it worth asking my manager explicitly to clarify whether this is an open posting? I haven’t been at my job long enough to have gone through this before, and the last time someone was promoted, they were given a title bump without any new posting. I tend to get rubbed the wrong way when things like “we’re posting a promotion for someone” aren’t stated explicitly – if they had just said “We’re promoting John into this role”, I think I would be in my feelings about this a lot less. (Though our department head has a particularly close relationship with the person who it appears to be tailored for – other people have previously commented on favoritism – so I’m not sure I am alone in feeling a little off about this.)

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    1. saskia*

      Start by just asking your boss. “I saw this listing. Is this for an internal promotion? I’d like to talk about what this new role means for my role — workload, org chart changes, etc.”
      There’s no harm in telling your manager you hope you’ll still report to them because you value your working relationship. If you haven’t been talking about work overload, maybe do that in a separate conversation, and begin building a plan.

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      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Ok, thanks – this is a good reminder that the questions are reasonable for me to frame as work questions – and maybe they feel unreasonable just because I’m in a bad place about how everything is operating overall – but it’s totally fine to ask for clarity / transparency.

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        1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

          Honestly, I’m a little shocked that they haven’t proactively let the group know how this affects them; that strikes me as bad management.

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      2. Hyaline*

        This–I would just open a conversation with a fairly broad question, noting that you saw the opening and wanted to know what’s up, and, in the flow of conversation, emphasizing that you’re very happy with the current structure reporting to him.

        Like…ideally, I feel like reorgs and new positions should be shared with teams BEFORE postings go up so there’s no anxiety over the lack of clarity, but it’s possible it’s as simple as “We wanted to give a John a title change but to do that they make us list the position” and nothing about your world is changing at all!

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    2. Sleepy Hollow*

      I’d just ask about the position in general. You can ask like you’re trying to find out if it’s something you’d want to apply for. If it’s a done deal with the other guy you’ll probably figure that out pretty quickly. Pick out a couple of questions to ask that will give you the answers you need in general. “I’m trying to determine if this kind of role would be the right fit for me or if I’m happier as an individual contributor, so what do you see the managerial aspect of this role being?”

      For what it’s worth it’s pretty common for companies to post this kind of position with someone in mind and I wouldn’t get too bent out of shape about the seeming lacking transparency. They could just have easily promoted the guy and then announced a change in reporting structure the next day, at least this way you have some warning.

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      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Yes that’s a helpful reminder – I’m used to working for much smaller places that tend to overcommunicate and be very mindful of people’s feelings about any kind of change…

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    3. HonorBox*

      I think you could talk to your manager since it sounds like you have a good relationship. Ask them if there’s a way that you could continue to report to them. That seems to be at least a major concern for you, and perhaps there’s a way that your manager can have some input in how the reporting structure can work. They may also have some insight into whether this is more tailored to one person. And they might be able to help you and others by highlighting upward that you and your teammates are already stretched thin, so promoting from within will create a vacuum of sorts.

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      1. Llama Wrangler*

        They definitely already know that people are stretched thin!

        I think part of this is actually just – I’m really miserable right now, but my current manger is even more miserable right now than I am. I think this new role will make them less miserable – so there’s a chance that will trickle down to making all of us less miserable, but it’s also possible it will just spread their misery around a bit more. I think there will be a point at which I may start wondering how much I should broadcast that I’m not going to stay much longer in this role. But in the meantime, I think maybe just asking the question about how they’re thinking about workloads now that the reallocation of work will be happening is a reasonable and appropriate question.

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        1. JSPA*

          So is, “seeing the posting made me wonder about development and advancement paths here, either through managerial experience or in more advanced IC roles.”

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  2. Quoth*

    I manage a department of four. There is a company policy that no more than 20% of a department can be planned to be out at a time, but I will bend this rule occasionally for a day if it makes sense with the projected workload (ex the Friday before a Monday holiday). Managers are allowed to work out how to manage their department’s PTO so by and large I go with a first come first served policy, with the exception that no one can scoop up all the “desirable” dates at the beginning of the year.

    One of my reports, Alan, usually puts in most of his requests at the beginning of the year and for the most part they’re at somewhat random times, usually for long weekends. Alan does have a history of changing his PTO around slightly closer to the date of the time off if there are other dates that are still available and make sense with the work schedule. He’s told me this is because he likes to use his PTO for outdoor activities, so if the forecast is calling for rain on the Th/F he has scheduled he might move it to M/Tu if no one else has off and if there are no deadlines on those days. Sometimes he gives me notice, sometimes he shows up to work on the day I’m not expecting him and tells me he’s changing his vacation. This is sometimes mildly annoying because sometimes I’ve planned around Alan’s absence, but usually it’s not a huge disruption. Alan also has the most PTO in my group (including myself) as he’s been here for about 15 years. The rest of us have been here less than 8, so Alan has double the PTO of some people. Our company policy is use it or lose it, and I encourage everyone to use their PTO completely.

    This year Alan had most of his PTO requests in by the end of March and it included a week in late October. I approved this time. In July another report, Maggie, put in for a long weekend W-F during the same week. I denied her PTO since Alan had off and it was too long a stretch for me to okay both of them being off.

    Maggie was disappointed because she had wanted to go on a trip for a friend’s birthday. She asked Alan if his PTO was movable, but Alan said that he was also going on a trip to a friend’s cabin with a group, so he couldn’t change his plans. Maggie was upset with the situation, but she understood and told her friends she would have to miss the trip.

    Fast forward to the week of the trip. Alan is out M-W, but shows up in the office on Thursday. Apparently the weather at the cabin took a turn and Alan’s group decided to leave early.

    Maggie was pissed. She came to my office and let loose about how inconsiderate Alan was. Apparently there is resentment on the team in general because of Alan’s PTO planning. They’ve been planing their vacations around Alan’s scheduled time off for years and just quietly seething when he changes his time last minute, but this was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I talked it through with Maggie, reminding her that everyone had the same opportunity to get me their dates early or to use that flexibility. Maggie’s argument is that it’s not always feasible for team members to know in January when they’ll need off in the later half of the year.

    I’m going to talk to Alan and tell him moving forward that he needs to let me know in advance if he’s going to move his vacation, so moving forward no more “I decided to come in” surprises, but I don’t want to take away the flexibility of being able to change his days around in advance on the chance that one of the other team members maybe would have wanted the time he originally booked off.

    I’m trying to come up with anything else I can do to make the PTO scheduling more “fair” since this seems to be an issue for 75% of my team. I don’t want to force everyone to lock in PTO by a certain date because god knows I don’t always know what days I’ll want off in November at the beginning of the year. I toyed with a rolling 3 month schedule, but that gets tricky at the end of the year if people have PTO they’ve been saving and there’s conflicts and also doesn’t allow the members on my team who do plan in advance the security of knowing their vacation is approved.

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    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I can think of several possibilities for making it more “fair” but all of them involve a lot more time/effort on tracking things and I feel like that’s a waste of your time. Ask your HR and higher ups what formally the PTO policy is and then just keep that. Also ask if the 20% rule really needs to apply to departments of 4 people, that’s saying only one person can be out at a time? Which seems unrealistic for holidays etc.

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      1. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

        The 20% rule technically can’t even be applied to a department of 4, unless the person out works 1/5th of the day (1- 20%/25%)

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    2. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

      I managed a team where some people were advance planners and others were extremely spontaneous, and we ran into similar issues. We settled on having both a minimum and a maximum lead time for planned leave (for example, maybe you have to request at least 3 days in advance, but also, you can’t request more than 3 months in advance). You can adapt it to your industry’s busy times, needs, etc. This might at least help with Alan getting to the entire calendar before everyone else.

      I think the “sticking to what you requested” can be a little trickier. Maybe whatever your deadline is for requesting leave is also the deadline for any changes (if you have to request 3 days in advance, you also have to cancel 3 days in advance).

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      1. blueberry muffin*

        I think the creation of a maximum lead time policy is a great idea.

        My bias is that I don’t plan out a year in advance all my travel. I would be upset my plans in November could not be afforded some flexibility because I didn’t know in February about November.

        This may not be a popular opinion.

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        1. HonorBox*

          Not unpopular with me. Things come up. Opportunities and need to take time present themselves. Someone planning a major international holiday might know that quite a bit in advance. But I would bet my lunch money that more folks are like you, me, and Maggie.

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        2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          When you’ve got an organization like OPs that wants minimum coverage, I think this is a good way to be fair.

          One caveat – I think I’d be flexible about allowing longer lead time for things like weddings & graduations that are (a) known about long in advance, and (b) once-in-a-lifetime things.

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        3. Sleepy Hollow*

          See I have the opposite bias because I’m a planner, especially for longer vacations. I’ll frequently plan and book 6 months+ out, so having to wait until I was 3 months out to know I’m approved would give me horrendous anxiety.

          I also think about life events that come up that you do know enough in advance. I have a friend getting married in May and I’m in the bridal party, so my boss already has my PTO request for that. If I had to wait until a set amount of time before that could be an issue.

          And what if those two situations collide? Like let’s say I have this wedding that I need to be at and another coworker has a trip they’ve already paid for/arranged with family and we both come in 3 months before and ask for the time?

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          1. Flor*

            Yeah, we have family on the other side of the Atlantic and often book our vacations well in advance, particularly if we have fixed dates with major family events. And because they’re transatlantic flights, we go for AT LEAST a week, so we need several days on either side of the event. So, yeah, I’d be miffed if I found out 3 months in advance I couldn’t make it to something like my SIL’s wedding because someone else got a leave request for an adjacent day approved first.

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          2. A perfectly normal-size space bird*

            Yeah, I’m thinking about the total eclipse this year. I’m in a tourist town in the path of totality so all hotels, campgrounds, and short term rentals were booked up for that day a year in advance. And all had policies that anyone booking the day of the eclipse had to book a minimum of 3 (sometimes 5) days for their stay. I had friends come from out of state and they weren’t allowed to submit PTO more than 3 months in advance and it was first come, first served. Their employer expected a lot of people would want to be absent for the eclipse and planned to approve all PTO requests but by the time my friends found out that, there was no rental of any kind left in six surrounding counties.

            Fortunately, they had “booked” an air mattress in our living room a year and a half ahead of time as a backup plan.

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          3. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

            I would basically have to plan my vacations, file my PTO requests 3 months to the day before the trip, and then if it was denied… quit?

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        4. Fluff*

          Or a variation where you have the max and min plus some guardrails for exceptions and people who play the system.

          Most importantly – the PTO rules should apply to you as well. I think that is why it works for us. I would love to block out DragonCon for the rest of my life. No one is happy all the time, and they are not disappointed all the time either. It does take work.

          1. Maximum plan cut off. Example: all requests received by March 15 for the July 1- Dec 31 PTO will be treated based on x rules:
          – Holidays based on who had what previously if conflict arises. Rank choice requests work well here.
          – Holidays limited mostly to bookends. That lets more people take the PTO on the same holiday. For a Monday holiday, one person can do the week before, another the week after. They can add the other days later in the cycle if no one took them (but it cannot be more than 3 months out).
          – Spring breaks are tracked as well. PTO preference is not based on kids / no kids.

          2. Rare exceptions for advances. Track these – if person A had an advanced approval for an overseas trip for 2025, they may not get to use the “advanced plan exception” for 2026. They can then for 2027.

          3. PTO conflict requests – before denying, I send out a request for both to consider option 1 or 2 which I suggested. This is easier to do with 4 employees than larger groups. This is only for weeklong time off or maybe a major holiday.

          5. After the deadline, it goes 1st come 1st serve. I still check against past requests to head of conflicts.

          Potential conflicts:
          – games and sports. I had two devoted sports fans and one played the system with very advanced notice which locked out the other. And I mean war – on the level of Klingons and Romulans. I had a hidden calendar for each of their teams (subscribe on outlook) and had trends on my radar. This is one reason we developed the hierarchy above.
          – soft or not national holidays (looking at you Utah and Pioneer Day).
          – look out for yearly work related conferences.

          Hope this helps. Schedules and PTO really make people feel decent about their jobs.

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        5. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          I agree. I do think there could be some leeway. For example, if you are planning your wedding and honeymoon you should be able to put the time off in 6 months ahead of time.

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      2. Tio*

        The problem I have with maximum lead times like 3 months is that there are times when you want/need to plan nearly a year out in advance. I plan two of my biggest vacations 9 months out because they revolve around conventions, for which I must at minimum book a hotel and pretty decently in advance to get the room block rates (these are not work conventions). If I had to book the hotel, wait 6 months, then get denied and lose my deposit, I would not be happy. If I waited to book until 3 months out, I would either be 30 minutes across town in the only vacancy or paying 5x as much.

        That said I do understand that opportunities do come up much later than that for more spontaneous things and that’s also valid. It sounds like part of the “planning around Alan” issue is a bit about the fact that he has a lot of vacation time due to seniority, which I doubt is going to go away. If he had moved to a different weekend and someone else had wanted that weekend instead, what then?

        I do think that you need to tell him no more last minute showing up though – If he wants the dates bad enough to take them in advance, he has to actually take them, no matter the weather. That will hopefully make him a bit more cautious about whether or not it’s worth it.

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        1. Momma Bear*

          I think this is where common sense comes into play. If I plan a trip overseas 6 months out and block that PTO, I am heavily invested and need to/really want to go. The issue isn’t that there isn’t the notice period. The issue is that Alan blocks off all this time for himself and then decides at the last minute he’s not using it, after the opportunity is gone for someone else. Alan’s behavior needs to be addressed more than the lead time needs to be truncated.

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          1. WellRed*

            Yes, obviously some stuff gets planned further ahead. Weddings, trips of a lifetime etc. Alan’s maybe I will, maybe I won’t time off simply doesnt meet that bar.

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      3. Pocket Mouse*

        I generally like this system, with the caveat that sometimes people need approval for time off more than three months in advance (for example, to attend a specific event where it is known the date won’t be moved, like as a wedding in another country).

        For Alan/your team specifically, if you can’t get official exceptions to the coverage rule, any approved days off that get rescheduled are last in line to get approved. And it seems like Alan’s dates are flexible a lot of the time- can he be more considerate by flagging which days off are flexible and which aren’t, so that you and you team can better prioritize other team members’ days off that aren’t flexible? Or suggest to him that instead of requesting the random long weekends well in advance, wait until they’re closer—like when the forecast is available!—and as long as he gives you X days’ notice and coverage/workload isn’t an issue, you’ll approve it?

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        1. Retirednow*

          I don’t actually understand why you let Alan change his days off on a whim. You say the reason is because there’s outdoor activities that he can’t participate in if the weather is bad. Well that’s on him. If I book a week in Hawaii and it turns out to rain that whole week I don’t just come back to work and say well it rained so I couldn’t do any fun stuff in Hawaii. I think if he books the time he needs to use it. I think that in itself would go a little distance at least helping other folks understand if they can’t take time off at the same time.

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          1. Lily Puddle*

            I agree with this. He reserved the time off, and that means no one else can use it, so he needs to stay home and use his vacation time. If there were no issue about coverage, that would be different. In my organization, there are several departments where there has to be minimum staffing, and there’s a lot of competition for major holidays. In these departments, we keep a rotation list of who had which major holiday one year, and someone else will get to take it off the next year. And if you are taking off Christmas or Thanksgiving, you have to let the manager know by a month before which dates you’re taking so that someone else has a shot at the days you’re not taking (so if you’re taking off the week before Christmas, someone else can take the week after, etc.). Someone’s always going to be unhappy about not getting the holidays that year, but at least there’s a sense of fairness because you know your turn will be next year.

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          2. DefinitiveAnn*

            This is a good point. If Alan requests PTO months in advance and it’s approved, he can’t change it. If it’s shorter notice (like booked a month in advance, when others in the longer time frame vacation needs would have already booked for the time off and it’s available to anyone), then a last minute cancellation would be OK.

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          3. Morgi Corgi*

            I agree. He can’t keep switching last minute like that. If he can’t do the outdoor activity he can always have a staycation at home (that’s what my wife did when a planned vacation fell through) or make other plans. If he REALLY wants to come in I’d probably let him, but he can’t then decide he’s going take those PTO days a few days later instead.

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          4. AcademiaNut*

            This. I suspect a good bit of the resentment comes from the fact that Alan books stuff 9 months in advance, blocking other people, then at the last minutes decides he doesn’t want that day, comes into work, and gets the vacation day back to rebook later. Alan’s blocking other people from taking time off for more vacation than he actually has.

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      5. Spencer Hastings*

        If it were up to me, I’d have both the minimum and the maximum lead time depend on how long the PTO period was. I put in my PTO request just recently for a 2-week international trip in June — having to wait until March to even know if I’d be allowed to take off would be pretty stressful! For just a weekend, maybe 3 months max does make more sense.

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      6. Pi314*

        I like this idea. I also think it could make sense to treat longer vacations (1 week +) differently than shorter trips. I also use PTO for a lot of outdoor activities and would appreciate the flexibility of being able to shift a 3 or 4 day weekend with only a few days notice due to weather conditions, and also tend to plan those trips on shorter notice. But I do think it’s fair to require more notice time for taking a whole week or longer off.

        But sounds like the main issue is that Alan doesn’t realize or care that last minute changes like that impact his coworkers so much.

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    3. WellRed*

      I would Be pissed too! The only person getting flexibility is Alan. You are waaaaay overdue to set expectations around this. If Alan actually need to commit to his time off, maybe he’d schedule it thoughtfully. It also sounds like the PTO amounts are out of wack but I realize that’s probably out of your control.

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      2. vulturestalker*

        Yeah, as someone who also spends my time off on outdoor activities, rain is unfortunately part of life and sometimes your requested days don’t end up being nice ones. That’s just how it is! It seems like you had been assuming that because nobody complained, no one but you was being inconvenienced by the last minute changes, but in fact they were very resentful. It’s definitely time to change this policy.

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      3. Quoth*

        The thing is they all have the flexibility on the timing, Alan’s just the only one taking advantage of it regularly. Like if Maggie had booked a long weekend and came to me a few days before and said she needed to change it to another open spot on the calendar that would be fine.

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        1. Strive to Excel*

          That doesn’t mean it’s a good policy to have. If you have people planning around each other, letting them move time unilaterally is only going to result in conflict.

          If you still want to keep some flexibility, have a lock-in date. PTO can no longer be moved 2 weeks before the planned time off. No more day-of changes, that’s not fair to you or other staff.

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        2. not nice, don't care*

          But Maggie may have lost the original opportunity she passed on because Alan already claimed those days. Flexibility doesn’t help re-reserve flights or hotel rooms.
          Alan should be held to his pre-arranged days off if he wants to book them that far in advance, so other people can also make solid plans. If he changes his mind, that shouldn’t change anyone else’s plans.
          It ends up looking like favoritism.

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        3. WellRed*

          I’m just not seeing all this flexibility you claim to have. If only one person can be out at a time, it’s always going to be tricky. Maggie had a special trip she wanted to take, Alan dropped his plans last minute and then had the gall to show up at work “oh, haha nevermind!” I hope he’s not an all around ass.

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          1. Quoth*

            I’m not claiming to grant a ton of flexibility. I’m saying that life changes and sometimes people will want or need to change their days last minute. Alan takes advantage of his ability to change his days the most often but he is not the ONLY one who has ever done so. One of the other team members changed up plans recently because they had family who was supposed to come in to town and cancelled. No problem take the days back. They are only allowed to change the dates if the business needs will allow for it, so on the occasions that Alan has asked to change days to a day another employee is off, the answer is he can’t have those dates. Like I said originally I’m going to be changing the policy so that there is no more “oh I just felt like coming in today”.

            Alan is not an all around ass. Alan is an engineer who made a thoughtless decision. Generally my team gets along well. I completely understand why Maggie was pissed off, and that’s why I’m looking for thoughts on how to rectify this issue moving forward.

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            1. DataWonk*

              Going forward, I would want my manager to bend the “no more than 20% gone” rule way, way more often if this had happened to me. Especially for things planned months in advance.

              As a manager I would rather plan for delays, and communicate them to external stakeholders, than risk losing morale on my team.

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            2. Reading Rainbow*

              I’m replying to you but I’m really directing this more at all the folks who are acting like Alan has wronged his coworkers here– I think it’s really important to separate out that something can be upsetting without someone having done something to you. Maggie didn’t get to go on her friends’ trip and that sucks, then part of Alan’s trip got canceled so he showed up when she wanted to be out with them. Of course that feels bad! But that doesn’t mean he has hurt her in some way. His trip got canceled for reasons wholly out of his control, and he’s not showing up to taunt her. It’s really important to focus on the actual problem. Maggie didn’t get to go on her trip whether Alan was required to stay home for those last two days or not. Mandating that he’s not allowed to come back in doesn’t fix the real core of what Maggie and the rest of the team are unhappy with, which is the way the calendar is actually blocked out. I feel like everyone is focusing really hard on making everyone feel a certain way and not focusing on actually making sure people can book time off the way they want/need to.

              Also, seeing Alan cancel dates they wanted feels bad but making him take those days anyway doesn’t actually give them anything. In fact, since no one else can be out when Alan is gone, him staying on PTO anyway only mandates that they can’t be gone as well and actually limits them even more. I would not be surprised if Alan is doing all this last-minute shifting partially because he is trying to not take any unnecessary days so that he’s not restricting his colleagues. If Alan is a decent guy, as you say he is, he is probably taking time off in this pattern in an effort to be accommodating to everyone else and doesn’t realize that they would actually prefer a different course of action. Just let him know!

              I agree with you that having the flexibility is not the problem and there’s no reason to take it away. I do think that telling him not to just show up with no notice is a good idea, and if you want to take the advice to require he keep booked PTO then that’s fine too. But I think everyone focusing on that in the name of some kind of punitive fairness are losing sight of the actual issue.

              One way to try to give everyone a fair shot at the calendar whether they’re long term planners or not is to perhaps limit how much people (but realistically, Alan) can block off early in the year. That way there’s space for the stuff you’d want to book 10 months out and the stuff that you might not finalize until a month away. I think the balance of that will be really individual to your team but it could work.

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            3. Gloaming*

              Could you say that you can only *book* the amount of time off that you have, and if you chose to move your PTO from those dates you can take it only if no one else wants the time?

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      4. learnedthehardway*

        I don’t think this is entirely Alan’s fault. He’s a planner, he books his holiday time in advance, and other people have the same opportunity to do so. And the OP is making sure that Alan doesn’t take all the prime holiday weeks.

        I could see telling Alan that he can’t switch his holidays without notice, though, because that is creating issues for planning and reallocating work. But even so, if he gives enough notice – eg. a couple of days – and if there is work to be done – I don’t think it is horrible of him to want to work while the weather is bad and rebook holidays for days that other people aren’t using.

        I think the problem is that the organization is not flexible about having more than 1 person off at a time. Does that even make sense for the team? I mean, it might – perhaps there is a need for continuous coverage at all times. But it might not – eg. if the work is at all seasonal, perhaps it makes more sense to say 2 people can be off at a time in spring and fall, but full coverage is needed for the summer, or whatever.

        I can understand why Monica was upset because part of a week she could have booked ended up being “wasted” because Alan came back into work, but that’s really on the organization for being inflexible, not on Alan for not wanting to camp out in the rain.

        I don’t think that telling people they can’t book holidays more than 3 months in advance is practical.. Major trips out of country, big life events like weddings, or holidays that require coordination with multiple people often HAVE to be planned out well ahead of time. I bet that Alan’s week camping with friends was put together 6 or more months in advance, so everyone could align their schedules. You wouldn’t call that a major life event or a significant international trip, but it still required a commitment in advance.

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        1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

          People don’t have the opportunity to plan for things they don’t know are happening, like the friend trip.

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      5. I Can't Even*

        Agreed, tell Alan that if he asks for the day off he has to keep it off as he is interfering with other’s being able to use their work benefits.

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    4. Sunflower*

      Is this policy actually necessary for your team to function or is it a burden? If you stopped enforcing the policy, would anyone know or get in trouble or would the business suffer?

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    5. saskia*

      Sometimes, for the good of morale, I let things be “understaffed” for a few days. I tell everyone who is scheduled to work that day why this is happening (obviously use your judgment and be discreet or vague), that this won’t happen often, and that I want to accommodate important events to the extent that I can. People usually appreciate this — as long as you don’t do it too often — because they see how it can benefit them too.

      For a four-person department, the PTO policy seems like it’s not really working. That’s a tiny department. As the boss, evaluate if you really need to follow this to the letter or if you can flex it a bit more, especially since you already do flex the policy. I would be so damn mad if I were Maggie.

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      1. Quoth*

        Unfortunately it would be an issue for more than a couple of days. We provide internal support as part of our job duties and it’s not feasible to have planned absences for too long. When I flex that policy some (which I do whenever I can make it work) it’s a struggle to get through those days because 50% of my team is out (not counting myself, obviously I jump in wherever I can on those days).

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          1. Quoth*

            The operation does not revolve around Alan, it revolves around having adequate coverage to do our jobs.

            Again I was unaware that anyone had an issue with the policy until Maggie told me. At no point has anyone said anything to me about the fact that they were all quietly planning around Alan. An issue has been brought to my attention and I am now attempting to rectify it.

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        2. Slow Gin Lizz*

          Ok, but wasn’t Maggie only asking for a couple of days anyways? I know you said that you will sometimes break the 20% rule for slower times, but what if you relaxed it a bit more often than that? And I’m sure you probably don’t have control over hiring at your company, but if having two team members out at the same time increases your workload that much, maybe you should get a sixth team member?

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    6. HonorBox*

      I’d be pissed, too. I think you have a much better sense of workload and deadlines and should start by advocating to HR that the 20% policy really isn’t realistic for a team as small as yours. You’ve made exceptions from time to time, but I can understand why you don’t feel comfortable doing that more. They need to give you the nod since you’ll have a better feel for what the impact will be if 40% of your team is out.

      Alan has taken your fairness and flexibility too far, I think. I can appreciate that weather impacts things… he put in for the time and you and your team have adjusted for him to be absent. Perhaps rather than asking people to put in time for the entire year, let them schedule no more than half of their days at that point, and then ask that everyone give you at least ______ days advance notice when requesting others. And I honestly think that if someone needs to adjust or cancel their request, they owe you the same number of days notice. While Alan wasn’t at the cabin, he could have done literally anything else with his time that he’d requested. Sorry that the cabin didn’t work. Sorry that your friends decided to end the trip early. But you asked for the time, and precluded someone else from taking time. That’s how the cookie crumbles…especially when someone has that much more time than others.

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      1. Quoth*

        I really like this idea! I might shift it so it’s something like “no more than 2 weeks or half your days, whichever number is greater” and combine it with the rolling three months idea from above or something like that…

        And yes I personally thought it was pretty thoughtless of Alan to show up when he knew Maggie wanted the days. To the best of my knowledge this hasn’t happened before, but like I said above, I wasn’t aware the team was planning around Alan so much.

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        1. Hazel*

          Maybe don’t try to make a bureaucratic rule. Just say ‘tell me your must have dates that can’t be changed’ (weddings, family, etc). Get them to help make compromises. Then say ‘ give me your nice to have dates’ and do the same. Maggie wouldn’t care if A. Alan wasn’t blocking so many days and effectively weeks by taking one or two days and B. Her vacation had t been a fixed date. She wouldn’t have cared if it was to paint her living room.

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          1. Reading Rainbow*

            I agree, stuff like this being really regimented is a recipe for people to still not get time off for things that are important to them and end up still being resentful. A general guideline of part advance, part rolling is a really good idea IMO but you also need to be sort of qualitative in making decisions as well. That wouldn’t have solved this incident, since both people had immovable group vacations, but I bet it will head off a lot of other conflicts.

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      2. not nice, don't care*

        My partner had a manager who made everyone schedule a year in advance, and got really pissy if people had changes or unexpected needs. She was stupid and lazy and hated having to be flexible and attentive, so she basically bullied and cajoled people out of using leave. It took some serious union/HR effort to break this manager’s habit, but sometimes staff need to get drastic when management drops the ball.

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    7. Rick Tq*

      Effectively only one person can be on PTO at a time right now. Is that a reasonable policy 12 months of the year? If you workload ebbs and flows maybe it makes sense to allow two people on PTO during your quiet periods.

      That policy is the source of the angst and needs to be reviewed and possibly modified.

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      1. Quoth*

        It ebbs and flows but it’s not a long term predictable end and flow. I do allow for extra flexibility where I can, like around the holidays when there will be fewer people in the building and therefore theoretically fewer people who need support. For example we get off the 25th and 26th of December, and I have 2 out on the 27th since it’s a Friday, and if 1 more wants off he can have it. Ironically it’s not Alan because Alan doesn’t want to “waste a perfectly good PTO day when he has nothing to do”

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    8. Tuesday Tacos*

      I had this situation where I worked once where the senior person was allowed to reserve days around every holiday weekend and then cancelled them the day before if she didn’t want them. We coworkers really pushed to have this practice stopped by having the boss rule that no one could reserve more than one long holiday weekend at a time.
      Is it possible to do one of the following-
      1) don’t allow team members to reserve more than a certain amount of time ahead
      2) don’t allow team members to reserve more than a certain percentage of their time off before a certain date (for example- they are allowed to reserve 25% of their vacation time in January, another 50% in April. etc). I guess you might have to make exceptions on a case by case basis here if someone is planning a big trip, etc.
      3) Tell John once he reserves his vacation, he can not show up as a surprise or he will lose that day as PTO and can not put it “back in the bank” basically don’t allow him to cancel it without a few weeks notice.
      This would infuriate me!

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      1. Strive to Excel*

        Yup – if you’re going to reserve a day, you’re out that day. Cancellations not allowed unless for critical work reasons.

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    9. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think you also need to give some thought to what happens to planned vacation days when something goes awry. If Alan had had to call his trip short because he got sick, would he be allowed to change those two remaining vacation days to sick days and then use his vacation elsewhere? Sometimes stuff happens on vacation and you just have to eat it.

      Also: your company has a policy of no more than 20% of a team being off at one time, but that’s actually incredibly restricting for a team as small as yours. A team of 20 not having more than four people off at once? Sure. But on a team of five, yourself included, one person being off already hits that threshold. Is there a way you can ask for some flexibility from management in general? I know you said you already bend the rules occasionally, but unless these jobs involve coverage of some kind, I’d try to see if there were ways that you could have more than one person out of office if the total number of days is indeed three or less.

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      1. Ama*

        Yeah I used to work somewhere where at the end of the year they didn’t want any full teams out all at once — of course for much of my time there I was a team of one, so they had to just make do and let me take vacation and everything went fine (my team is one of the least busy at the end of the year and I would leave behind thorough status documents of how to answer any questions that might come up). Then when I had a report they started enforcing that we couldn’t both be out at the same time and it was so stupid because our work hadn’t changed and I had already demonstrated for years that they didn’t actually need anyone from our team in the office. I managed to argue them down to allowing us both to be out for a couple days of overlap because it was absolutely impossible for us both to travel to family for holidays otherwise.

        (The even dumber part was that my report had a child with an immune system disorder and often had to call out when the child got sick – which happened a lot around the holidays because of all the parties — so there were days we were both out anyway even if we hadn’t planned to be and somehow we managed.)

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    10. Hyaline*

      I agree with others asking about that 20% policy–on a small team, that’s a bigger burden than a larger team. But if it’s locked in, I think you might be overthinking it trying to solve a person problem with a policy change–your policy is fine, with the caveat that you can emphasize and uphold “I can’t guarantee last minute changes.” I would talk to Alan–the rest of the team is pissed at him, but does he have any idea that his attitude about PTO use is a problem for them? What he’s doing is inconsiderate–taking days off the table for others that he may or may not use. Maybe he doesn’t realize this and simply getting clued in to the dynamic will solve the problem. If it doesn’t…maybe stop allowing his last-minute changes. If he gets denied his “weather requests” a couple time, he will probably stop doing it.

      If you need to adapt this to a formal policy, PTO–*exact dates*–must be requested at least two weeks, or one week, or whatever, out (obviously barring sick or emergency time off, if that’s in the same bucket).

      I have to say, I don’t love the idea of not allowing requests before a maximum lead time, especially something as short as a few months. International trips, weddings, even just family reunions get planned a year or more in advance, and people want to feel confident they have the time off work secured. Don’t screw with that just because you have a problem with Alan.

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    11. GreenShoes*

      I think the answer is to
      A- Be a little more flexible with your team if possible. If you can get away with 2 being out then let it.
      B- Talk to Alan. Tell him what the problem is… it’s not terrible that he’s putting in his PTO early, but let him know that he doesn’t have to do it that early.
      C1- Tell everyone on the team. If you want PTO on a day that someone already has. It’s ok to ask them if it’s firm. They need to respect them if it is, but it’s ok to ask. I have found that a lot of times people are scheduling PTO for things that are pretty flexible, not always the case of course.
      C2- If there is still more than one that wants the day then tell them to come to you to see if an exception can be made (See “A”)

      I managed a small team that all had a lot of PTO. It could have been a nightmare to manage but I found with a little communication upfront most things worked out in the end and I had similar rules as you with ‘Only 1 off at a time’. I don’t think I ever had to say no to anyone because if there was a conflict they would work together to figure out a solution (i.e. giving me a plan to make sure that everything would be covered if an exception was made).

      As for holidays, I did hold off on approving vacation until about September. I would then circulate a ‘give me your PTO wish list’. The first year I had a couple of conflicts so as a team we talked through it.

      Me: Ok, everyone wants 12/23 and 12/26 off… we can handle this a few different ways. I can draw names, go be seniority, tell everyone no, or something else

      E1: Oh, I didn’t really have special plans on the 23rd but I’ll already be at my aunt’s house in Toledo… But the 26th I am driving the family to Grandmas

      E2: Hmm… if I work on the the 26th I don’t have go to my brother in laws basket weaving party… I don’t mind working that day.

      Me: Ok, so E1 can you work remote on 23rd from Toledo and E2 if you can work the 26th we should be covered.

      (This conversation happened with 5 people because I included myself as manager in the coverage) It more or less worked itself out. The next year I sent the same wishlist out at the beginning of September and the team worked out most of the days without me, then brought me the ones where there were true conflicts. And usually I would adjust my PTO to cover (I always held out from planning my days until the team was settled so I could fill in the holes.)

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      1. saskia*

        Co-signed! This is an awesome way to handle PTO and pretty similar to what I do for a team of 20+ people. It does take extra work on your part, but it’s worth it because it results in a happier team. When team members are open with each other too, they’re less likely to be pissed off when dates are taken and you’re less likely to be stuck in the middle.

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      2. Bast*

        I worked on a small team of 5 for some time where they typically did not like more than 1 person out at a time, but would allow 2 people out for shorter periods (ie: we couldn’t all take from 11/18 to 11/22 out, but if Person A wanted the whole week and Person B only wanted the 18th and 19th, it might not be an issue depending on who the 2 people were and the time of year). We had some high profile weeks that most of the office wanted off that we’d have to draw straws for (the week of Christmas, typically) but beyond that, we’d try to talk to why someone wanted that specific week off, and if they had any room to move it. If Person A wanted the week off to attend a wedding across the country, and Person B wanted the time off to chill at home or had plans that could moved, usually Person B had no issues with going on vacation a week earlier/later. At some point, we were all Person A with plans that we could not move, so we tried to be flexible out of courtesy when we were Person B.

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    12. Not A Manager*

      To me, the clearest source of resentment is people giving up their own plans due to Alan’s PTO, and then he comes in on a day they’d like to be out. I think if you stop that, you’d solve a lot of the resentment at a fairly low cost.

      Tell Alan that if he plans PTO, he can change it *only if* no one previously expressed interest in the time. If other people had to forgo their preferred activities because he called dibs, he needs to stick to what he scheduled. When people request time that Alan has claimed, they should ask him, as Maggie did, whether he’s flexible. If he is, great. If he’s on the fence, then maybe knowing that he’ll be committed to the time if he keeps it, will encourage him to be more realistic in his planning. Right now there is no upside to him in being flexible in advance, because he’s allowed to flex at the last minute.

      I’d make this very explicit. “Alan, Maggie is asking for this time for an important family event. Please be certain that you need exactly this time and that you’ll use it. If Maggie gives up her long weekend, you absolutely can’t come in to work on those days.”

      In any event, I would tell him that if he’s changing his PTO he needs to ask you and clear it in advance, and he can’t come in unannounced.

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    13. Sloanicota*

      I would just plan to be a lot more flexible with that 20% rule, particularly if it involves Alan. You can also say “yes but you would need to make sure you hand of X or make a plan for Y before you are out.” Also, have you explained to Alan why this creates a problem for others and what you want him to differently? Right now the system is working for him and he’s getting what he wants, so he has no particular incentive to change it. You can say you aren’t going to “allow” him to cancel leave anymore, which may make him more conservative about requesting it early, but that’s kind of punitive IMO.

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    14. Tradd*

      My department has two people. Me, the manager, and another person. I’ve been there 3+ years and the other person, 10+. I currently only have 2 weeks vacation (have to be there 5 years to get 3 weeks). Coworker gets 4 weeks. The workload is horrendous when the other is off. Coworker put in for a bunch of long weekends in a row the last 6 weeks of the year, just to use time up. I told him that he was placing an undue burden on me, because not only did I have to cover my desk and prepare for weekend shipments (customs broker), I had to deal with his as well. I told him he had to take the other random days as Tuesday through Thursday.

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        1. BYOD Blues*

          Disagree. This is a staffing problem, if he’s entitled to the leave that’s part of his compensation and he should be take it (within reason) as he sees fit.

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          1. Tradd*

            There is not enough work for a third person. His days off were approved, but expecting to have *6* long weekends in a row (both Monday and Friday off) is too much for me to have to deal with since I have to cover his desk. He picked other days. He had no plans. These were just random days off.

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    15. Jessica*

      i think part of the problem is that because he often reschedules, each of his pto days locks others out multiple times. it would be different if he was scheduling them more spontaneously, but he’s blocking time way in advance and then taking it back so he’ll do it all over again.

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    16. Murph*

      I would consider being more flexible with the 20% rule. What if Maggie had gotten sick when Alan was out? I bet you would engender more loyalty and goodwill on your team by eliminating the scarcity mindset around PTO.

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      1. Carrots*

        Agreed. If the workload does not allow 2 people to be on leave simultaneously for up to a week (be that sick leave or vacation leave), to me that means there is a staffing problem. There should be some sort of back-fill ability from another department, at least.

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    17. Bitte Meddler*

      I would tell Alan than he can’t change his days last minute anymore. He can look at long-term weather forecasts and let you know 2 weeks in advance if he wants to change, but he can’t just come in when he’s scheduled to be out so that he can use those PTO days later.

      If he doesn’t tell you two weeks in advance, he can’t come in and he’ll have to find something else to do on his rainy days off.

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      1. Seashell*

        Totally agree. If the weather didn’t work for Alan’s beach vacation, that’s Alan’s tough luck.

        I could see making an exception if it would something like he came back early from vacation because he found out mid-vacation his mother needs someone to take her for surgery on Friday and he wanted to squeeze one day of work in. Barring that, Alan’s stuck with the days he picked.

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    18. Momma Bear*

      I think that it’s reasonable to talk to Alan about how his last-minute changes impact the team and require that he either not make PTO plans so far in advance when the weather is uncertain, or he stick to what’s on the books/have a cut off for changes due to weather. He may have been doing this for 15 years but he’s alienating his teammates and it’s honestly unfair. He should not have changed his time after denying Maggie her trip. He shouldn’t be allowed to pencil in dates so far ahead and change on a whim when it impacts the team so badly. I wouldn’t let this continue. He also did this *knowing* that she had to cancel her plans. That’s not just unfair, that’s mean.

      For the end of the year, reach out to individuals who are likely to “lose it”, say by October. Remind them their balance is high and then let them be an adult about it and either schedule something or let it go. At my old job we had 5 people in our department and at least 1 had to be on site through the holidays. We would put in our requests by early November. If there was a conflict, we’d have to try to work it out with the coworker and if that didn’t work the manager would decide. I honestly can’t remember a time we had to get the manager to intervene. Usually it was “well, I’ll take Black Friday if you let me have New Year’s Eve” kind of thing. You should have enough data now to know about when most people take most of their time so I’d get ahead of it a few weeks to a month before.

      What does the team suggest? Maybe bring it to the table that the old way isn’t working well and while there is no system that will satisfy everyone, what options have they used in the past and liked? And don’t be afraid of Alan. He’s had his turn.

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    19. Edna*

      I wonder if the rest of the team is making decisions about whether to even ask for time off based on the existing time off requests on the board. If they’re not asking for a day because it’s booked, then no one is off that day, they could be frustrated without you even knowing it.

      I’m struggling to articulate this but on the surface it doesn’t matter if Alan actually takes the days he’s reserved, since no one else can anyway, but the perception is causing frustration nonetheless. Flexibility can be a privilege and I wonder if that makes it feel worse for the rest of the team too (reasonable or not). I think the lock in policies others have suggested would help everyone feel attended to.

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      1. Quoth*

        That’s my understanding. Until Maggie had a trip that meant more to her no one bothered asking, they all just kind of planned around Alan’s days.

        My conversation with Alan will definitely be around the fact that his decision to cut his time short when Maggie had asked off and he’d said he couldn’t move it was not a good look. It was pretty thoughtless and he needs to understand what that looks like to the other more junior members of the team.

        I do think that I need to also talk to the remainder of the team about communication when they have an issue. The remainder of the team is on the younger end of the spectrum.

        For what it’s worth I do think that in general Alan would make changes to his planned days if he didn’t have solid plans, especially if the ask was made as far in advance as Maggie made her ask.

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        1. Edna*

          I see what you’re going for but am concerned about giving everyone the go-ahead to ask teammates to move their PTO once scheduled, since you mentioned encouraging everyone to use all their PTO. I can see how that would be part of a solution though.

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    20. Ann O'Nemity*

      The 20% policy reveals that the team may lack sufficient slack to handle absences, which is a structural challenge. While refining PTO policies is one part of the solution, it’s equally important to analyze workload, explore cross-training, and consider adding capacity to the team. Ensuring there’s enough slack not only improves PTO flexibility but also prevents burnout and maintains consistent support for internal stakeholders.

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    21. Quinalla*

      So you said there is a company policy of no more than 20% out from a department with some exceptions, but does that policy actually make sense for your department? Can you permanently adjust it to allow for 2 people total to have overlapping PTO whenever? That would help a lot!

      I also think you need to ask Alan going forward to give you notice when he wants to change days off. I understand he wants flexibility with the weather, so figure out what makes sense there, but he needs to let you know and not just show up to work when he is supposed to be on PTO.

      Last, maybe you need to ask Alan to limit planning so far ahead especially if he is fairly flexible. Maybe he should hold off on putting dates on the calendar for completely flexible stuff until much closer? I don’t know exactly, but when coverage is so strict, you can’t just let someone eat up all the dates in January when not everyone wants to or can plan that far ahead.

      I don’t have the issue at work as we don’t have super strict coverage policies, but I do have it with my family. My sister likes to plan her whole year and will claim my parents’ time for several weekends and then my two brothers and I have to fit around her scheduling. And she doesn’t just plan a weekend or two, it’s like half the weekends in the fall plus some other trips with them. And it sucks, cause it isn’t like she shouldn’t be able to make plans, but she just claims all these weekends and then no one else can get them. So my husband planned the next 3 Christmas breaks (once school released their calendars) and put that on my parents’ schedule LOLOL but it sucks to have to do that. Alan and my sister should both stop planning every single little thing a year in advance with no consideration for others.

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    22. Qwerty*

      How flaky is Alan in other aspects? There are some good suggestions for this specific PTO problem, but I recommend also paying attention to Alan’s overall interactions with the rest of the team.

      When rolling out your changes, it may help to take ownership of the fact that you let this go on for too long. There should have been a conversation a long time ago about Alan surprising even his boss by showing up on his days off and what the plan should be if the weather looks like he won’t get to enjoy his planned activity. Every time Alan takes off a day and then reschedules it last minute, he blocks the rest of the team from 2 days (or more, depending on how many times he reschedules) because they can’t take that day off. Most people this is something that happens once a year and is understandable, but the regularity of it was bound to cause issues and starts to turn into a lack of respect for the rest of the team. Good managers own their mistakes and you’ll get further with “I should have done this sooner, here is the new process” rather than “we changed the process, everything should be good now”.

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    23. Exme*

      3 thoughts, use any or some combination:

      1. Requests have 2 different approval types – first person to request dates has days off that are approved (permission to take) but if someone else requests the same days later the first person must decide to lock in (required to take) or cede the days to the 2nd requester and pick different days. You keep flexibility to change on days that were not in demand by multiple people.

      2. A certain number of days can be requested far in advance, to accommodate oversea trips and such. Remaining days are requested on a shorter lead time.

      3. Bid for days off, ask at certain points during the year for requests for an upcoming time period. Manage conflicting request with a rotating list – higher on the list gets the requested day but they go to the bottom of the list.

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    24. Pocket Mouse*

      I commented above, but also want to flag that ideally your team has low turnover- which seems to be the case! That means, in that ideal world, more of your team will have increasing amounts of PTO to schedule. Alan may continue to take lots of long weekends, while others may want to take fewer but longer chunks—if Alan claims a bunch of weekends, and the 20% rule hasn’t changed, that can severely limit the longer chunks others get to take off. I encourage you to think about planning ahead for this, whether it’s advocating for formal flexibility on the 20% rule, getting another staff member, pulling in someone from a different department as backup on rare occasions, or something else. Whatever you decide now is just a step one for something that needs a long-term approach that works for everyone on your team (and correspondingly, everyone your team supports).

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    25. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      It sounds like a lot of other things are not flexible enough for you to have great leeway.

      The biggest issue in your control may be the 1st come 1st served policy. This often causes as many problems as they solve.

      Maybe they can pencil in requests, but they will not be approved until 3 months before and conflicts will be resolved on a rotating priority or some other basis that makes it not ONLY about the early bird.

      Yes certain trips need longer lead time than 3 months, if that is the case they need to let you know when they need the longer lead time. And then by capturing that “priority” booking they forfeit having priority on other bookings for a 12 month period etc.

      A lot of this comes down to how much time and effort you are willing to put in to manage the PTO schedule. Set some other “tiebreaker” rules like they do for little league tournaments in place, involve the team in coming up with what seems more fair and then give it a go.

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    26. Luna*

      Nope. He cannot show up on his off PTO days. Not fair to others. Send him home. “I’ve already taken you off the schedule and we don’t need you today”.

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    27. Still*

      This is an unlucky situation and I don’t know if there’s a perfect solution, but I think a large part of the problem is that Alan ends up being able to call dibs on way more days than the other team members.

      He has double as much time off, which means he can call dibs on double as many dates… and then if he cancels some of them, that gives him extra days to use to call dibs yet again.

      Would it be possible to tell Alan that he only gets to have first-come-first-served dibs on as many days as his colleagues, but any additional days off that he’s earned can only be taken if noone else wants that date?

      So everybody has equal priority on booking the first 10 days (or whatever the usual allowance is), and any additional vacation days will get lower priority for picking dates? That way Adam still gets to use his time off but doesn’t get to trample all over the calendar. And he has to actually think about which dates are truly important to him.

      Could something like this work?

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    28. Thisishalloween*

      ah, the only one person gets flexibility policy. And the person with, it seems, the most superiority, as well if his time in the job is any indication. His behavior is bizarrely selfish and I don’t quite understand how no one involved flagged this as an issue years ago. Preventing him from abruptly deciding to come to work to not “waste” the pto he requested– and everyone else planned their lives around– is a very good start. He asked for it off? And it’s rainy? Too bad! Stay at home, do something else, but don’t come to work. Because he not only has more PTO, but by virtue of his nickel and diming of it at the last moment, he also gets to USE more as well. Not going to lie, I would have jumped from this team if only one entitled, selfish person got the PTO flexibility…

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    29. BigLawEx*

      It feels like part of the issue is that there *has* to be some planning around Alan because he has more days than anyone else. I’ve worked in places like this where some people have 5 and others have 20. I’d just want to make sure the resentment is mostly about flexibility and not about the number of days available.

      Reply ↓
  3. Tradd*

    **This is not for political discussion. Alison doesn’t allow politics. This is about the increased tariffs on imports to the US that directly affects my job as a customs broker, as well as others who are in procurement, supply chain, etc. I can discuss these issues without getting much into politics.**
    This is for all involved with US import/export, procurement, supply chain, logistics, etc:
    Please show some consideration for your customs brokers/freight forwarders with regards to the tariff increases that the new administration says will happen once they’re in office. It’s okay to check in occasionally with your broker, but we know nothing more than you do until January 20th (inauguration day). I expect imports from China will get hit with increased tariffs first, but as to percentage, etc., we have no definite info. Also unknown what will happen with increases on imports from other countries. Are they planning on ditching all the free trade agreements in place? I have no clue! I have customers who are panicking and calling multiple times daily. Even after getting executives with my company involved to tell the customers to quit contacting us on the issue, the customers keep doing it. I’ve had to put my desk phone on do not disturb so I could get work done. I understand they are concerned. However, I have no definite info for them. I’ve recommend they have whatever contingency plans in place, but they just have to sit tight.
    During the new administration’s first term, it took about a * year* in for the additional China tariffs to go into effect. Nothing can go into effect on January 20th, as time has to be allowed for CBP programmers, as well as those for the brokerage software providers to make the needed changes so the increases show up when clearances are submitted to CBP. It seems like there were a couple of instances with maybe only several days lead time with increases in 2018.
    Whenever the increases go into effect, brokers cannot clear shipments earlier than the five day arrival window at the first port of arrival for ocean shipments. Gaming the system like that doesn’t work because the entries won’t release if submitted earlier than five days
    Please keep yourself informed. The Economist, a weekly publication out of the UK, is probably the best for international trade and related issues. It’s expensive, but worth every penny. Their mobile app is excellent. The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal also have good coverage of trade issues. The WSJ has a logistics newsletter email sent out each weekday morning.
    Please ask if you have any questions. Between @Tio and I, we should be able to answer.

    Reply ↓
    1. ScruffyInternHerder*

      I may be leaning on this explanation in the next month or two as I have at least one coworker who doesn’t seem to grasp that there…aren’t weekly updates as to how this is being handled or what rates will be or anything like that.

      Thank you for your very clear and concise explanation! Much appreciated!

      Reply ↓
    2. RagingADHD*

      From my experience in a different field (supporting a divorce attorney), when people are panicking over the impact of an opaque, slow-moving bureaucratic process, they simply can’t hear you at all and nothing you say will make any difference.

      They just have a vague sense that somebody *must* know the answer, and you are the only person whose contact information they have.

      The lizard brain is in control, not the rational brain.

      Reply ↓
      1. Tio*

        Very true. And to be fair governments have a lot of regulations, so you would think it would be laid out pretty clearly! But unfortunately there are several ways it could go, and we can’t pick which one they’re going to go for, and people don’t understand that.

        Reply ↓
      2. not nice, don't care*

        Even worse when the process is opaque but the planned outcome is explicitly clear and very damaging, i.e. having one’s marriage overturned or ability to access healthcare denied. Pretty rational to be concerned, even if there are no immediate answers.

        Reply ↓
      3. bamcheeks*

        In 2019 and 2029, I worked with law students and got lots of questions from students about things like, “will my UK law degree be recognise in Belgium after Brexit? It was always my plan to go back home and practice law there…” Normally I wouldn’t have been able to answer that question straight off, but I’d have known where to check for that information or who to email to ask. It was so weird to just have to keep repeating, “literally nobody knows. Even the people whose job it is to know don’t know. Nobody knows.”

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    3. Busy Middle Manager*

      I wonder if AAM would allow an open thread or some sort of post on how the new admin will impact their jobs, as long as people agree to not opine too much, and only focus on how it impacts their job and future hiring/firing?

      I do follow politics and economics closely and this is not a normal election. Bank stocks, which were already expensive, spiked 10% that week on hopes of “deregulation.” I’m dying to hear from people in banking, for example, what specifically that means, and if they think dereg changes much for them.

      Just an idea. Doesn’t feel purely political to me if people don’t get into the personalities and only talk about the work impact.

      Reply ↓
      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I think it’s likely to be filled with speculation at this point and I’m not sure how useful that is to a broad audience, especially when anxieties are already so high, although I’m open to entertaining different viewpoints on that!

        Reply ↓
        2. Tio*

          I think this is the best idea, Alison. It’s all speculation at this point, no sense stirring it around too much yet.

          When/if it does happen, people have expressed interest in hearing more about the supply chain/ customs brokerage job here on the opens before, and maybe Tradd and I could do a chat with you or something to post and include that as a topic.

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    4. Tio*

      I ahve a call with the trade lawyers in about 2 hours to talk about this. Always fun when you get to talk to the lawyers.

      The FTA thing is a big one for me here. I can’t see how they could put these tariffs in place against FTA countries, especially since Mexico has been listed as a target and we have the USMCA with them. How will that work?

      Also, not sure if he’ll use the existing 301 act and just update it to change the China tariffs, or if he’ll do a new act. Those are very different timelines we’d be looking at for the increases.

      Reply ↓
      1. Tradd*

        Exactly on the FTAs! Please report back after your call with trade lawyers, if there is general info you would be able to share.

        I have to say, given the last time around and all the exclusions, if the China increases apply across the board and NO exceptions, such as children’s toys, etc., currently, it will actually make my life a bit easier. No having to check and double check what is included and what’s not! When the current administration put some China tariffs into effect earlier this year (EVs, solar energy generating equipment, large batteries, steel/aluminum, some disposable medical supplies), one customer sent me their product/HS code database spreadsheet with 1K+ items and wanted me to tell them for each item what the new increases where. I sent them the Federal Register notice with the list of HS codes and items affected, and told them to search by HS code themselves. I did this with executive approval as customer expectation to look through 1K items was ridiculous. None of their items were affected.

        Reply ↓
        1. Tio*

          So, if they wanted to initiate these blanket tariffs they’d almost certainly have to do it under a 201 action as the 301 and 232 investigations require injury where the 201 doesn’t. And they would be hard pressed to prove injury for a blanket tariff increase. Even then, a 201 would be hard to enact for a blanket.

          Also, the nomination for Trade Rep is actually a seasoned person who’s worked in trade for a while, so some order may be able to be imposed on the ideas.

          Reply ↓
      2. Ontariariario*

        USMCA can be renegotiated in July 2026 so I expect that will be a big factor. No need to break the FTA if US and Canada can walk away from it.

        Reply ↓
        1. Tradd*

          I have to be totally honest. Dealing with shipments from Canada is easy peasy. There are no language issues. Any dealings with Mexico about give me an ulcer. Part of it is the incredible amount of bureaucracy on the Mexico side, part of it is the specific customer and unreasonable demands. I’ve been repeatedly yelled at for not sending emails in Spanish (they email me in Spanish, I run it through Google Translate and respond in English), when I don’t know the language and it’s not a required part of my role.

          Reply ↓
          1. Ontariariario*

            Yeah, there’s a lot of talk in the news from politicians who want to split and have different agreements with U.S. and Mexico. Funny about the language though, given how strongly Quebecois enforce the use of the french language, but you probably don’t deal with anyone from that province plus they wouldn’t complain about receiving something in english (they’d just write everything of theirs in french).

            From the news:
            “Alberta Premier Danielle Smith says she agrees with Ontario Premier Doug Ford’s suggestion that Canada and the U.S. look at cutting Mexico out of the North American trade agreement.”

            “Smith was asked by Power & Politics host David Cochrane if she agrees with Ford’s suggestion that Mexico be dropped from the agreement if it doesn’t tighten up restrictions on Chinese products.”

            Reply ↓
            1. Tio*

              This is pretty much the temp we’re getting on things like this. So we probably won’t see much tariff action on Mexico specifically until 202.

              Reply ↓
            2. Tradd*

              What’s funny is that I’m part French-Canadian (a great-grandmother who I look like, so I’m pretty much a sturdy French-Canadian peasant. I’m more Ontario, though (half Canadian!). :D LOL! Any Quebecois I’ve ever dealt with was fine with communicating with me in English. I generally deal with Canadian counterparts or customers in Ontario or out in the Prairie Provinces.

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              1. Ontariariario*

                Agreed that the Quebecois generally are often happy to chat in english, it’s more that things done officially are often regulated to be in french as per the Quebec government. A cafe recently got in trouble because they were writing things in english on social media, so it’s weirdly strict in some ways. I love any excuse to chat with francophone friends!

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    5. Tech Industry Refugee*

      This is a good reminder to generally be gentler with each other during this time – many of us are super stressed out due to recent events – for dozens of reasons – and that stress isn’t going away anytime soon.

      Thank you for providing resources!

      Reply ↓
      1. Tradd*

        Before early last year, you could get a digital version of the Economist through Libby app. I got it through my library. Then the Economist changed their rules for digital versions and apparently a lot of libraries no longer offer the digital version. The physical paper copy? At least my library doesn’t have it. It’s $21/month. I happened upon an annual subscription for about $170. It’s usually closer to $250. The NYT often has very cheap digital only subscriptions for maybe $4/a month. I take my news and being well-infofmed very seriously and have The Economist and NYT digital subscriptions, plus Apple News+, which gives me some WSJ access and a bunch of other publications. I love The Times of London, the New Yorker, and the Atlantic through Apple News+.

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  4. Shareholder Value Contributer*

    For those who work at a large company with ppl spread through different offices requiring RTO- how is it/enforcement going for you?

    I work for the big tech company who has RTO 5 days a week starting in January. We currently have RTO 3 days and leadership claims we are going to 5 because people are not embracing the spirit of it aka gaming the system by learning the badge tracking mechanism and doing minimum to stay compliant without being flagged. I am convinced this is to get people to quit as it seems to be enforced differently dependent on team- they are forcing relocations, including to people who have been in their scattered locations or remote pre 2020, on some teams while others (like several people in my org), have remote exceptions or are not getting flagged by HR even when they haven’t been to the office in a month.

    Everyone is hoping this means things will go back to pre 2020 and managers will let people WFH at their guidance (leadership is claiming the badge reports will still exist but the auditing and flagging is going away). My company is simply too large to force all teams back to one location -we’ve always been split between offices pre 2020- so meetings can never be done 100% in person and monitoring in office attendance by butts in seat is not really plausible.

    I would like to know how RTO is all working out in practice for other companies. How do they monitor it and is it strict or lenient? If you are supposed to go in X days, how many do people actually go in? Has anyone been fired for not complying or what are the consequences? Has this just faded in the background and been forgotten about anywhere?

    I am perfectly aware of the possible consequences for not complying and that the employer gets to make the rules- this question is not about that so please don’t reply if your answer is a form of ‘it doesn’t matter, follow the rules or risk being fired’

    Reply ↓
    1. Tea Monk*

      It’s insane because our company actually was never made to be an office job. Even in the 2010s this job was always laptops out in the field. But by making us sit in the office, there’s hardships due to people losing time for real work, overcrowding and fighting for space and for me, the stress of being in a loud space where I have to social draining energy.

      Reply ↓
    2. stripey giraffe*

      I’m in an engineering company. We’re currently at 3 days in office, but there are rumors about 5 days coming soon. This will not be great: a bunch of people will quit and we’ll be very short staffed. I especially feel sorry for the guy who was recently hired and told he could do his in-office days in a satellite office, then after 6 months, he was told he’d have to go to HQ. Which is a 2-2.5 hr commute each way for him.

      Reply ↓
    3. Strive to Excel*

      This is more for my previous job than my current job.

      Previous job – auditor. Expectation was that you are with your team while on a client job. Usually on-site at said client. Maybe a couple days in office.

      Post-RTO, the expectation was still that you were together with your team 3-4 days a week. The catch: a lot of our clients now don’t want us on site that full time. Some clients went remote for their finance and admin departments, so it didn’t make sense for us to drive down and sit in their board room on Zoom. Others would require us to travel to them, and the client bears the cost of the travel, so they wanted us remote instead. Now instead everyone works in the office.

      The office is not designed for the full complement of auditors at that location, because it was rented/set up in a pre-Covid time when you wouldn’t have more than 40-50% of staff on site at any given point in time. So every single chair, desk, overflow location, and other station got filled to bursting by 8:30 AM.

      And the hardest part is that auditing accounting is, despite all attempts to class it otherwise, an apprenticeship job. The most valuable learning really does happen on-site, with a team, looking over each others work. People coming in during 2020-2022 really struggled as a result. So the consequences of not going in were that your work product is going to be noticeably worse over time and you were going to struggle.

      Reply ↓
      1. Thegreatprevaricator*

        I’m in public sector in Uk. Pre pandemic my org was going hybrid, and that was accelerated by Covid. After consultation we moved to 1-2 days in office. We have one team day a week in office. Our office isn’t large enough if every team based out of it came in. It works pretty well. The general approach is that we get treated like competent adults. I tend to more 1 than 2 days at the moment in office but that’s logistics. I like having team days, it concentrates the useful business that can happen in person into one day. My in office day is not productive in terms of output, but it’s very useful in terms of using my time with team members. It can be a day of meetings. The other interesting thing is that now we have moved to online meetings for a lot of things, we travel a lot less and have made big savings by not having staff moving around the country as much. It would be a bit pointless to require people to come in full time as they would come in to do online calls and then go to in person meetings. The office has limited meeting spaces so it can be better to do online meetings from home.

        Reply ↓
    4. Anon4thisq*

      The issue seems to be RTO was 3 days and some people took advantage by trying to game the badge system so now it is impacting everyone.

      Top performers usually have leeway. My company went RTO/hybrid years ago first 3 days and then 4 days. I was in meetings showing data/metrics of people trying to game the system so now the policy is 4 days in office.

      BUT top performing managers have leeway within their teams. My team is a top performer and I travel a bunch so I am not always in the office. I give my team flexibility, but had one team member take advantage so talked with them. It didn’t change, so they didn’t get as much flexibility/WFH options. It wasn’t done automatically because although the work was good, they missed some deadlines and some important contacts because they weren’t available during business hours.

      Things can also be used other than badge scanning FYI. Anything the company owns or even if you use a software they can monitor. I had an issue awhile back with a team member who swore they worked 8 hours and had been doing x, but clearly they were not.

      I spoke with them and they swore up and down, so I went in the system to see if something had not been done correctly/ an issue with the system and saw they signed on but only did 1.5/2 hours of work and got maybe 4 things done. Those 4 things should max take 20-30 minutes. It was a pattern. I called in HR (to protect myself) and had a meeting with them showing the data and lack of work. They again dug in their heels, so then we had IT check and they didn’t do the work. This isn’t an issue of they did 2 hours on one system and did the rest somewhere else, it also was a pattern and not a one day thing. So if you slack one day don’t make it a pattern.

      It isn’t just badge scanning. Most managers don’t check these things unless it is clear the person isn’t getting their work done/ can’t get in contact with you.

      I think it also depends some companies might be doing this to get people to voluntarily quit instead of pay for severance. So if I were you and you want this job (and its hard to get a new job right now I have been applying and using my network for awhile) I would put your head down, go in the office when you are meant to do and do your work. Don’t do anything on your work phone or computer you don’t want your employer to see. I have spoken to friends at other companies and it is strict, people either get fired or don’t get put up for promotions.

      Also, when my company required hybrid/ RTO they gave everyone a 6 month notice and told everyone what states you could live in. Some people had moved to different states so this gave them time to apply for other jobs if they didn’t want to move back, so as long as your company gave ample notice I don’t know if I see the issue. It really isn’t their issue where someone moves and it is always a risk.

      Reply ↓
    5. Pam Adams*

      I’m an academic advisor. We’ve been 3 days in office since we returned from the pandemic, but are moving 4 days. No one is happy, but we’re all obeying.

      The newest freshman students do like in a person visits, but the majority of students like Zoom appointments, so there are days when I go to the office for zoom visits all day.

      Reply ↓
    6. Security Princess*

      I just quit my job at a multi-location tech-adjacent company because we’re going to 2 days/week RTO in Jan and that’s not possible for me due to distance (I found a new fully remote job, blessedly). It’s been 1 day per week for the past year and while most people seem to comply the consequences have never been made clear, even to the managers (I’m one) who have to implement them… even at this point no one knows what happens to people who won’t follow the 2 day policy going forward. I’m not convinced they’re doing it to get people to quit but also I don’t think they really thought it through, there’s been repeated u-turning and lack of comms on remote exceptions. I think it will be enforced, though. The CEO is very firm that he thinks this is the bare minimum we need to do.

      Reply ↓
    7. Is it Friday yet?*

      At my work, we’re 3 days in office and I’ve heard they review badge entries weekly and talk to the people at the bottom of the list. And a colleague mentioned it came up in his recent promotion, that as part of the promotion he had to agree to stop being at the bottom of that list.

      Reply ↓
    8. RagingADHD*

      My company is distributed across multiple states and timezones. It had employee designations of onsite, flex (meaning hybrid local), or remote (no local office). From 2020 to this October, onsite and flex employees could WFH on any schedule approved by their manager, subject to directives from the manager’s upline. Therefore, some employees designated onsite had to RTO almost immediately, others have been RTO since 2022, others not.

      This October, they started a companywide RTO initiative phased by business unit. The Flex designation was eliminated. All employees not hired in as fully remote must be onsite at least 3x per week, and department heads could mandate 4 or 5. (My department started mandatory Mon-Thurs at the beginning of November).

      There have been some adjustments, and a lot of scrambling to renovate and create extra seating. I can only assume they didn’t bother creating space until they saw how many people would quit.

      I don’t think it was intended to reduce headcount, since we are still hiring in most departments. But they sold off an entire office building in our home city in 2021, so it’s a huge amount of space pressure. It seems badly planned, honestly.

      AFAIK, nobody was forced to relocate because flex people were still supposed to be close enough to their designated office site to come in on some kind of regular schedule.

      Overseeing attendance appears to be up to the managers. Our manager answered a question about badging and said the data is collected and could be pulled if it appeared there was a problem with an individual, but they don’t anticipate needing to do that.

      I think HR is still still working through the exception / ADA requests that have come in since the announcement, because some coworkers have mentioned having upcoming meetings about it. Managers still have the ability to approve ad hoc WFH for specific issues (waiting for plumber, etc). I don’t have any sense of how many people are complying, other than the massive increase in traffic.

      I’d estimate that my floor is 50-75% busier on any given day.

      Reply ↓
    9. Quinalla*

      My company has not issued an RTO policies and allow folks complete flexibility so far, but friends and relatives have mixed results:

      1. Some were fairly lenient or lax with checking and then they got a warning that they were going to start for real checking and they then did and gave warnings then fired people that didn’t comply after warnings.
      2. Some have some departments lenient and some that follow the rules to the exact letter of the law.
      3. Some have a don’t ask/don’t tell where if the manager has plausible deniability that they didn’t know someone wasn’t coming in when they were supposed to everyone just pretends it’s fine. This usually eventually ends in a bigger boss visiting the office and figuring out no one is coming in eventually.
      4. Some checked in an effective way without loopholes from the start of RTO and enforced strictly.
      5. While I have heard folks talk about rebellions working, I don’t know anyone IRL where that actually worked and a company reversed a RTO policy. I have seen folks complain and get changes made to unfair RTO policies: for example you needed to be in the office say 60% of your time, but PTO counted as not being at the office so scheduling PTO on in office days meant coming into the office more on other weeks to make up, that kind of silliness

      I think generally you can try your luck and see how lenient people are and if they are not get a reprimand and then comply and be fine. There is risk of course, but I think the risk of assuming leniency to start is low.

      Reply ↓
    11. Techtree*

      I work at a big tech company (another letter in the acronym that your company is part of :) ) and we have partial RTO. For most locations it’s 3 days/week. In higher volume locations (NYC, SF) it’s 2 days/week with a desk-sharing arrangement (someone else uses your desk on days you’re not there). Enforcement is on a large team level; technically non-compliance can be factored into your performance review at your direct manager’s discretion. I personally haven’t heard of anyone actually getting dinged for it.

      Reply ↓
    12. Former Employee of That Company*

      I worked there pre-Covid. I think that while this might not be a straightforward RIF, they do want to get rid of people who have a problem with 5-day RTO. New employees are cheaper, and one is expected to get up to speed very quickly when you work there. When you get rid of people who don’t like 5-day RTO, you also get rid of people who have troublesome issues like children and parents who need care.
      You know it’s a harsh company, so while you can hope that you can slide for a while, and quite likely you can, it really won’t matter how great you are, because they foresee hiring another great person 2 minutes later.

      Reply ↓
    13. A Significant Tree*

      Honestly, with my agency it seems like it has fallen into the background. We had RTO of 1-2 days per two week period initially, then it was upped to 4x per two week period. A lot of us were hired during Covid, and don’t necessarily live near the same office, or any office. The nature of the work is very distributed, across many time zones, and a lot of positions offered full time telework pre-Covid because of that. Those positions are still full time telework (for now), which of course prompts others to ask why things should change if we’ve all been teleworking effectively for 4 years, will be losing valuable working hours to commuting, and won’t be working face to face with our teams anyway.

      After the initial furor, there really hasn’t been any fallout that I’ve seen. A few reports of people leaving over this (my own manager for one) but none about people being fired, and if there are any reminders about the RTO policy they are going to individuals, no mass mailed reminders. I was told that our (possibly union) policy is that badge swipes can’t be used to monitor for attendance, only for emergency/building clearing purposes, so as far as I know there are no statistics about building occupancy.

      I only go to the office without a specific reason like a big meeting or client visit, but those happen on average 2-4 times per two week period so I’m kinda sorta meeting the RTO metric anyway.

      Reply ↓
  5. Justin*

    Back from brief paternity leave (not, let’s not discuss US leaves, because my company actually provides months, I’m just taking my months AFTER my wife’s leave ends, so I took two weeks sick time that was going to go to waste). And really excited to be leading what is going to be a streamlined, efficient course development process. It’s just so nice to be entrusted with a big project that fits within your skillset.

    On a related note, I hear from a lot of k12 educators and academic types they want to transition the way I have into training, so I’ve been informally providing guidance. There is so much extremely generic guidance out there (that is also very expensive) and it sort of makes me sad, so (for now at least) I’m doing this for fun and because I think educators’ and academics’ skillsets (which overlap but are not the same, I’m just lucky to be both) are undervalued. When we’re good at our work, we have to be excellent project managers, public speakers, have a comfort with data (even if not literally as statisticians), media literacy, etc.

    To turn this into a question, what transferable skills does your field possess that you think others don’t understand?

    Reply ↓
    1. JJ*

      I’m in k12 and I do a ton of project management across departments. software roll outs, integrations, policy and procedure creation and documentation based on input from multiple stakeholders. i do data reporting which goes hand in hand with analysis and eyeing trends in data to identify issues and intervene before they become revenue losses. i develop trainings and professional development based on the data trends I’m seeing as well. also based on any rules/regulation changes that night be coming down from the state.
      i also wrote business rules for software to ensure we stay in compliance with complicated laws and regs.
      I’m a teacher officially as my job title, but I never interact with students because I serve this niche role.
      i would live to get into tech but have no idea how to market myself

      Reply ↓
      1. Justin*

        Yes. I work in professional development/training now (not for teachers, though I write about education and do that on the side, for fun), and there’s so many skills that are widely applicable.

        My advice to you? Find a company/job ad that is NOT looking subject matter expertise but just this list of skills, usually a niche subject. Then you can learn the subject on the job. I moved into training working with city child support workers, and they knew none of us had that expertise but they needed good trainers.

        Reply ↓
      2. Smith Masterson*

        Have you approached your vendors? I work for an ISV ecosystem that has applications in HigherED. I know these companies are known to hire customers.

        Reply ↓
    2. CzechMate*

      I’m an admin working with students in higher ed. My corporate friends always say I’m a “Customer Success Manager for good,” because, yes–case managing students is not too dissimilar to managing customer/client accounts.

      Something I actually notice a lot is that people in the education sphere have to be at least somewhat attuned to cultural and socioeconomic differences, and my peers in the corporate world sometimes struggle with that. I’ve noticed this a lot with my friends who work for big multinational companies–there will be a lot of, “Why does the UK team do this?” or “Why is the team in Argentina doing that?” and I spend a lot of time going, “Have you considered that their attitudes to work might be different there? Did you consider that as the American partner, it may not be effective for you to do X when you interact with your colleagues in Bengaluru?” etc.

      Reply ↓
    3. Hyaline*

      Another academic/education person here–and one thing I’ve realized reading AAM is that it really cultivates the ability to identify, articulate, and conduct assessment of outcomes! You have to identify the outcomes you want (learning outcomes, skills gained, whatever), express them transparently, and design ways of evaluating them that are consistent and understandable.

      Reply ↓
    4. Nesprin*

      Academic here: If you want someone to go learn everything about an entirely new discipline and summarize it in a way that makes sense to a neophyte, I am your girl.

      Reply ↓
    5. Fluff*

      Previous orchestral musician (free lance and employed). I am now medical and informatics.

      Being a musician in the orchestra world gave me skills which I undervalued until I was in medical school and beyond:

      1. Managing calendars well – between many orchestras or tour schedules.

      2. Working with so many different egos and positions. Knowing that someone you may not like, might also be a great stand partner. Not liking does not equal being a pita to work with. Sometimes the arrogant snot is an easier partner.

      3. Leaving the conflict or stress behind when you step on stage. You could fight back stage and then immediately turn it on when you walk on – and everybody just did this. The audience has no idea. Boy, doctors and residents struggle with this. I can totally flip on “professional.”

      4. Being able to take feedback and learn. The masterclass concept is a normal part of music training. You perform in front of fellow musicians and your teacher critiques you on the spot. The others take notes or also give feedback. We learn how to take feedback in music, even if it is crappy feedback. The novice cellist may have useful feedback to the professional if we are open to it (happened to me, the novice pointed out my jaw clenching while all the advanced folks focused on the difficult aspects of the piece). Whoo, this is hard in medicine.

      5. Being good with money and planning. You get $$$ during the busier season, then the orchestras go off for the summer. Funds can dry up without weddings, and one off gigs. I learned budgeting that real quick.

      6. Really weird skills: learned how to charter a jet (managed the orchestra – cheaper to do that than book seats for humans and instruments), fixing car (a lot of driving), looking at presentations from the audience view, contracts with guest artists, plus generally winning at any identifying classical music on trivia games (to the opus # because I am a nerd), learning that you can have different interpretations of the same music and those may all be valid.

      My music degree was seen as a negative when I originally applied to medical school. My experience tells me it was incredibly valuable.

      Reply ↓
      1. bamcheeks*

        I think people with performance backgrounds are the BEST at teamwork. I used to have a very junior colleague who had graduated in drama and television, and her instincts for how much time people were allowed to throw around ideas and when it was time to start focussing, making decisions and assigning tasks were out of the world. We ended up just letting her run out project meetings, despite being the most junior on the team, because she did it so well.

        Reply ↓
  6. Talking in Meetings*

    I feel like I spend an inordinate amount of effort and focus on how much I talk in meetings. Some people dominate every conversation they’re in, some people never talk at all, and I’m trying to strike a balance by only talking when I have something directly relevant and useful to add.

    In practice, this means I stay quiet until I get frustrated or irritated, and then whatever I say is less diplomatic than it should be.

    Does anyone else struggle with this? How do you decide when to speak up?

    Reply ↓
    1. Talkative*

      My question is about what’s making you frustrated and irritated. Do you have something relevant and useful to say, but can’t get a word in edgewise, and then get frustrated? If so, this is a problem when some people are dominating, given how we’re not supposed to interrupt. Theoretically, the person running the meeting should reign them in, but I know they often don’t, so I’m not sure how to advise except by staying calm and remembering the meeting will in fact end.

      Or is that you don’t think you have anything useful to add, but then the conversation goes in a direction that’s frustrating or irritating, and then you have to speak up about it? In that case, maybe you should interject a little earlier. If someone else has been dominating the conversation, you’re unlikely to be seen as talking too much in comparison!

      I’m curious if you’ve gotten feedback that you talk too much or too little, that’s made you self-conscious about this. I come from a long line of people who all process their thoughts by talking them out, and verbally I’m pretty quick on the draw, so I often have to curb my natural tendencies. Then I get annoyed when the people who think I talk too much sit in silence and no one will contribute! For a while I was in a book club that had the “lean in/lean out” thing: they’d announce that people who normally talk a lot should sit back and let others speak. Then the moderator would try to generate discussion and there’d be endless awkward silence. Sometimes I’d just decide not to come to the conversational rescue! But I really don’t want anyone to think I’m stepping on them, so I do try to lean out, breathe deeply, and accept that we all have petty annoyances.

      Reply ↓
    2. Thegreatprevaricator*

      I’m chatty, I acknowledge I’m chatty. I can easily dominate a conversation but I also know that one thing I’m good at is advocacy and saying difficult things in a way that people can hear it.

      In some ways it’s not always just my job to moderate myself – with an effective Chair I don’t need to worry about other people having their say. But sometimes I don’t have a Chair or I am the Chair or it’s not that kind of conversation. So things I do:

      – I write down the key things I want to say or that come to mind when someone is talking. That means that I can allow other people to speak first, and decide what’s most important to cover
      – I let the silence be. If there is a pause, I don’t always jump to fill it. Oth, I also use my powers for good. It can be helpful to have someone happy to talk to get the ball rolling.
      – I pull others in and directly refer to them when I’m talking. ‘As Joseph was saying’ ‘I recall that Mary has worked in this area’
      – I try and not tangent / monologue too much. Using the pulling other people in helps with this, and writing stuff down.

      I think it’s ok to be a person who talks more. It’s not ok to be squishing your impulse and then being irritable. It’s not all on you to manage a meeting, and sometimes you can use your natural tendency gracefully to benefit rather than hinder the meeting. Some people really don’t like talking in meetings and would prefer that other people do!

      Reply ↓
    3. NaoNao*

      I’m autistic and I basically copy other people until I feel comfortable. I take the cue from those that seem to be well liked and popular and my autistic “superpower” of pattern recognition allows me to figure out what types of wording, emoji, and little gifs (or lack of) is considered funny and relatable vs. not welcome in the chat–our meeting chats are pretty active. I also pay close attention to the people who get laughs or kudos and try to take a page from their book.
      Is it tiring? Yes, hence why I’m really trying to get out of corporate america!

      Reply ↓
    4. vulturestalker*

      I definitely have a tendency to talk a lot in meetings. In some contexts I’ve gotten the feedback that I need to tone it down; in others, I’ve explicitly been told that how much I’m contributing is *not* a problem and that I should continue.

      The way I usually approach it is 1) speak up early in the meeting, when there’s something I care about. 2) after speaking the first time, count participants after me and make sure that I don’t speak again until x number of others have had the chance to talk (you can adjust x to a proportion of people in the room, or a set number, or whatever makes sense) 3) don’t feel guilty about speaking more after the count. It’s already budgeted in! Count again after the next contribution. 4) in my contributions, make an effort to refer to what others have said and/or explicitly call for participation from people who are less comfortable talking, to give them an opening. E.g. “But what do you think, Fred?”

      This has tended to work for me in calibrating my contributions!

      If I’m getting frustrated by not being able to say more, another option is to write down what I’m thinking and hold onto those comments, and then make my next contribution into a concise synthesis of what I had wanted to say but hadn’t said yet. Sometimes, my immediate reactions turn out to be less relevant later on, but sometimes letting more time go by before saying them just highlights how important they are to share.

      Reply ↓
    5. Oreo*

      I don’t have much advise, but I definitely commiserate. It may help knowing that the people listening in more than likely appreciate your direct communication style that actually moves the meeting along, as opposed to those who get off topic or end up rambling longer than necessary.

      Reply ↓
    6. Nesprin*

      ADHD SME here. This is a godawful complicated thing for me sometimes- sometimes someone isn’t getting to the point, or working from the wrong assumptions, or no one will be willing to propose a situation, and its so so hard to be thoughtful and diplomatic.

      My general take: figure out why you’re in the meeting and who would want input.
      Well run meetings have a purpose and a moderator- usually it’s the person who called the meeting, or the person, who if they’re not there, the meeting will be cancelled.

      Now the why of the meeting- well run meetings have a purpose and an agenda. You can ask the moderator what the purpose of the meeting is or take a look at the agena. Common reasons for a meeting: Are you there to be informed? Are you there to give an update? Are you there to make a decision and if so, who are the key stakeholders? Are you there to give a gut check to someone? Are you there to give input to someone who isn’t going to appreciate your input?

      Easy:
      If you’re there to be informed, your part is to listen and ask questions when the speaker says “does anyone have questions” or you’re there to give an update, it’s when the moderator gives you the floor to give your update.

      Medium:
      If the meeting is to make a decision, your part is to speak to the elements of the decision you know about more than anyone else. You can ask the moderator to put you on the agenda for your element, or ask them or an ally (boss etc) to throw the floor to you when it reaches your part.

      If you don’t have anything relevant to add, figure out why you’re in the meeting- did the moderator miss asking you for input? do they not know what you do? does the moderator not know how to make a decision and wants extra people in the room?

      Hard:
      If the meeting is to tell someone something they don’t want to know, it’s going to be awful, basically no matter what. Ask your boss to attend/back you up/take over that element of the meeting.

      Reply ↓
    7. Generic Name*

      I speak up when I have something relevant to say. Sometimes that means I’m doing most of the talking (and in my head I might think, “damn, I’m really talking a lot; I hope nobody thinks I’m taking over the meeting). Sometimes that means I say very little, or nothing at all. But I have over 20 years of experience and am a senior manager and SME, and I get kudos about my work from all across my very large company, so I guess I just don’t worry about talking the “right amount”. I suggest speaking up sooner and not waiting until you are irritated and non-diplomatic.

      Reply ↓
    8. AnotherLibrarian*

      So, I am also super talkative and what I do is take obsessive notes (can’t talk and take notes out the same time). If I have a thought I think should be shared, I count to ten in my head slowly to make sure no one else is going to speak up and then I speak. Beyond that, all the advice that Thegreatprevaricator had I thought was really good.

      Reply ↓
    9. Quinalla*

      I’d give yourself a certain number of times you can use in a meeting, like say 4 tickets of 3 minutes each for an hour long meeting maybe and limit your contributions to that. Then when you have a contribution, ask if it is important enough to give up your imaginary ticket.

      Figuring out the number of tickets can maybe be a bit tricky, but it doesn’t have to be perfect, just something that can help the mindset of is this important enough to use my limited time.

      Also, I would be more apt to contribute when someone is dominating and/or going off track vs. when someone who doesn’t speak often is finally contributing. You can also contribute by asking someone a question who maybe should be talking but isn’t.

      It really sounds like you need a better meeting moderator for sure though!

      Reply ↓
    10. Anxious autistic dude*

      It’s hard! Something that really helped me is asking my boss for direct feedback on this. I have a tendency of understating things/being a bit too succinct at times, and it was helpful to have the external check that no, I actually need to talk a bit more.

      If you don’t have that kind of relationship with your supervisor, maybe a work friend could help?

      Reply ↓
    11. Ann Non*

      I do it the same way you do: stay quiet until I get irritated. I also internally track who talks and keeps the conversation moving forward and who talks to hear their own voice (“I just wanted to agree so let me repeat what has been said bla bla”).

      Reply ↓
  7. Finn*

    Hello!
    Small question about job applications. I’m applying for a job, it’s legally mandated to be at most 20 hours a week, typically this kind of job is 10-20 hours a week, job posting doesn’t mention specific hours. The application asks for my desired yearly salary. If I know what I want to earn per hour, how do I calculate my yearly salary from that given that I don’t know the hours I’d work per year?
    Also, do I put my minimum of what I want per hour or do I put a little more to be able to negotiate?
    For reference, it’s an entry-level job, I’d say rather a bit below normal entry level since the work normally needs education, the job I’m applying to is aimed at people who currently are getting their education.

    Reply ↓
    1. Procedure Publisher*

      For calculating yearly salary, I would suggest using an online calculator. All you need is pop in the hourly rate and the calculator will do the work for you.

      Reply ↓
      1. N C Kiddle*

        Does that solve the problem of not knowing how many hours it is though? If you calculate from hourly to yearly based on a 20 hour week and they only intend a 10 hour week, that looks like you’re asking for twice as much, or am I misunderstanding something?

        Reply ↓
      2. Finn*

        The thing is, those tend to assume 40 hours a week. Wouldn’t the company think I want twice as much (or more) than I actually want?

        Reply ↓
        1. Jill Swinburne*

          Usually – at least where I am – the salary is calculated for full-time (well, 37.5 hours) and then pro-rata’d. So you’d fill out the form stating you want $50k but understanding that you’d get $25k based on the hours actually worked.

          It annoys me that the world isn’t really set up for part-time working. It’s very much an afterthought and leads to confusion like this.

          Reply ↓
          1. Finn*

            The kind of job I’m applying to is kind of common around here, so far though employers never asked for the annual salary I’d want… Most either put an hourly range in their ad or neither mention anything nor specifically ask for one, and one didn’t mention which form they wanted me to put so I just gave a per hour. I’m not sure how it’s handled for non-student level jobs though, so maybe an annual salary gets more common there too. Some jobs seem to advertise monthly salaries, as well, and at least one put the monthly salary in the offer too.

            Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        This is what I think too. For ease of math:

        20 hr/week * 52 weeks/yr = 1,040 hours/year

        So multiply your desired hourly rate by 1040 to get your desired yearly salary.

        Reply ↓
    3. Ontariariario*

      Can you put hourly rate? Or is there only a spot that says salary? If there is only salary then I’d still be tempted to put the hourly rate because that would be obvious and clearer. For example if they see $16 then clearly that’s an hourly rate and not yearly salary. I’d be a bit worried that an automatic system might screen you out, but that seems unlikely. They might remove you if you ask for a $32,000 hourly rate, but they shouldn’t screen out salaries that appear too low.

      Reply ↓
      1. Finn*

        There’s one required field saying “annual salary”, I can write anything though. I’ve been thinking about saying XXX (YY/hour) or something like this…

        Reply ↓
    4. Who_Is_Dat_Is*

      I would not put in your minimum per hour desired. Put in there what you believe is a fair rate based on type of work, experience, etc. If it were me I’d then bump it up another $1-2 per hour to make room for negotiations.

      Reply ↓
      1. Finn*

        The entire job type pays at or just above minimum wage across all industries, it’s designed to give current students work experience in their field (and employers cheap workers, I guess). I guess I should’ve mentioned that… I’m a bit worried about asking for too much XD

        Reply ↓
  8. Brenda J*

    I’m curious about how others weigh money against life satisfaction. i was just offered a promotion. currently make 150, promotion would pay closer to 190.
    promotion comes with about twice the amount of stress. i would be evaluating around 40 staff and dealing with crises all day long. i actually held that position in the past and chose to move back into less senior role because I couldn’t balance it with a young family. my kids are older now and college tuition is expensive, so I was weighing whether I should just take it even though I would not enjoy my job

    Reply ↓
    1. Princess Peach*

      Stress up by 100%, pay up by 25%? Doesn’t seem like a good trade off.

      Then again, struggling financially is pretty stressful too. How much would this help with college costs? Would it be enough to completely offset them? Or would your kids still have to take loans while you’re extra stressed for minimal benefit?

      Reply ↓
      1. Sloanicota*

        I agree, I don’t think that’s enough of a salary increase to justify that much more stress, particularly if the new job comes with more expense through insurance, commuting, wardrobe or travel expectations (I end up spending more of my own money in jobs I have to travel a lot – parking/speedings tickets aren’t reimbursed, fender-benders, my things are lost or damaged, etc).

        Reply ↓
    2. Tuesday Tacos*

      Weight it by whether you really need the money or not. Would you do all that extra work, if that was your only job, for 40k a year?
      Can you live without the money?
      I also think it depends on what stage of life you are in. New career or are you closer to retirement.

      Reply ↓
    3. Winners know when to quit*

      If the money would be hugely beneficial, could you put a time limit on the position? Say you’ll stay in it at the most for two years, reap the benefits and then get out and move to a less stressful position? Also, what would you be lined up for afterwards? Would this move pigeon-hole you into a certain track or open up other paths as well?

      Reply ↓
    4. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      As long as I have enough money to live my life, I pick life satisfaction first. Work to live, not live to work, etc.

      Is this a role you could step away from again if you realized the stress was not worth the pay increase? If so, how much do you realistically need to put away for your kids’ tuition, and how long would you need to do this job to put enough away for that? Can you put away enough without this promotion? If it’s something you could take on for say, 2 years and then go back to your current job/pay, would having an end date make it more bearable?

      Reply ↓
    5. ursula*

      Maybe it’s easier to think about if you translate it into what you would actuall do with that extra $40k per year (minus) tax, in your real life circumstances, and then weigh that rather than an abstract number. Is it the different between saving for retirement and not? Is it an extra vacation each year plus fixing up something on your house? More dinners out, at nicer places, and nicer clothes? IDK, it just might be easier to weigh that way.

      Reply ↓
      2. Sutemi*

        Another way to look, would you rather work 5 years at 190 or 7 years at 150? Maybe less than 7 based on taxes. At this point I would rather work fewer hours per week for more years to avoid burnout, even if it means delaying retirement.

        Reply ↓
      3. not nice, don't care*

        Try to factor in future health needs, because I have found that even a few years has made a huge difference in my chronic health issues. You may not want to trade future you’s comfort and ability for $40k.

        Reply ↓
    6. Cruciatus*

      I’m on team don’t do it. Your kids will likely also have other options for paying for school. Grants. Scholarships. School funding. Student worker. Loans. You being unhappy is not the only scenario where they get a college education. (And what if they decide college isn’t for them, or isn’t for them right now, would you feel you have to stay there just in case they change their minds?)

      Reply ↓
      1. Sloanicota*

        Or what if they struggle and really need your time and attention during the transition, but you’ve taken an all-consuming job you don’t like? If you said you loved this idea and wanted to do it that would be my priority but since you don’t and are doing it only for the money, you have to think what you might value more than money.

        Reply ↓
    7. WellRed*

      I make a fraction of that and still choose life over money. do you want to spend the last few years your kids are actually kids and under your roof working and stressed all the time?

      Reply ↓
    8. I AM a Lawyer*

      It wasn’t worth it for me. I received a promotion with a $50,000 pay increase earlier this year, and I have regretted it since. I spend most of my time doing work of an administrative nature (supervising, evaluation, budgeting) instead of interesting work, my time off is much more limited, and I’m basically on call to the CEO at all times. Taxes eat up a lot of my raise so the money wasn’t worth it to me.

      Reply ↓
    9. HugeTractsofLand*

      I don’t think it’s worth the money, especially because you’ve held that position before and moved out of it. This job would be your reality every day for years, which is more manageable if it’s boring but is actively harmful if it’s as stressful as you describe. Only you can know how your finances stand, but there must be other ways to boost your savings and/or plan for your kids to go in-state, apply to scholarships, etc.. If you do want to negotiate a pay boost out of this, maybe volunteer to absorb part of the role or to serve in an interim capacity.

      Reply ↓
    10. Yes And*

      This is a question I struggle with a lot, from a somewhat different angle. To anonymize it somewhat: Say my broader field is tea-making equipment. I’ve risen to a fairly senior position in tea cozies. Tea cozies are notoriously among the worst paying sub-field within tea making equipment. My skills are fully transferrable within the tea-making equipment world, and if I switched to, say, teapots, I could easily be making double my current salary.

      The thing is, I love tea cozies. I used to want to be a professional tea-cozy maker, and I switched into my current career track when it became clear I wasn’t a good enough crocheter to compete in a highly competitive market. But I like the work I do, I like the company I do it for, and if I can’t be a crocheter myself, doing this work supporting crocheters is the second-best thing I could possibly want to do.

      I have no particular love for teapots. Like, they’re fine, I have nothing against them, but my heart is really with the cozies. On the other hand, double the salary is nothing to sneeze at – especially when, like you, I have a family to take care of.

      My solution is, when a teapot job comes up, I apply for it. I have nothing to lose – if there are any red flags, or even yellow flags, I can always withdraw and be happy where I am.

      I guess my question for your situation is, if you’re being offered a promotion in your current company, could you get the same position with the same salary, but maybe less stress, somewhere else? Is all the stress you’re trying to avoid inherent to the position, or is it just at your company? If you have those marketable skills at a higher level of pay, you might try looking around.

      Reply ↓
      1. Retirednow*

        That is a really good point – if your current company is offering you this promotion, could you find a promotion at another company that would be somewhat more money but less stress

        Reply ↓
    11. Rex Libris*

      I’d pass. We all have a finite amount of time on this planet, and adding additional stress and misery to it doesn’t seem worth it once you’re no longer at the subsistence level. As a Pastor friend of mine likes to point out, she’s never heard anyone on their deathbed say “My only regret is that I didn’t work more.”

      Reply ↓
    12. Momma Bear*

      You spend a large portion of your life in the office. If you already tried and did not like it and know it will be a poor fit, IMO, don’t take it unless you absolutely needed to. I know that’s easy for me to say from here, but I walked away from a soul-sucking and fairly well paid job once because it got to the point that multiple doctors (and a therapist) said it was destroying my health. A promotion to something you hate is not an improvement. The take home pay may not be enough to justify the stress.

      Also, tuition is expensive, but might be time to evaluate the students’ contributions and options. Can they, for example, take a few classes over the summer to graduate early or stay on track for less? Anybody able to do a paid internship, work study, or just hold a PT job? I don’t know what your specific arrangement is but before you knock yourself out with a promotion have a family meeting about their educational costs and contributions. You shouldn’t sacrifice your health for something they can help with.

      Reply ↓
    13. RM*

      I would not weigh money vs. life satisfaction against each other in a generalized way, especially if it’s not a huge issue to step back down to a lower stress position (that still pays $150k!) again in the future. I would weigh $40k x [number of years] vs. Stress x [number of years].

      Would extra stress for 2 years be worth hitting an $80k financial goal? Would extra stress for 5 years be worth putting an additional $200k in your kids’ 529 or prepaid state tuition plans and/or your 401k or HSA? If the extra income is earmarked for these kinds of tax-advantaged savings, you will be getting more value than a “regular” 40k raise because you’ll be avoiding a lot of income tax.

      The other thing I would ask is, are your kids young adults in college, or are you saving up for their future tuition? Is this new position more working hours per day, or just more stress packed into similar hours? I’d be concerned about taking on a lot of additional hours if your kids are still living at home unless your partner is enthusiastic about taking on more parenting and kid logistics time.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        The thing is, it’s not even $80k. It’s probably a lot closer to $40k over two years, after tax. That’s only a year or two of college tuition.

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    14. Lemons*

      I would recommend staying in the less stressful role and just revamping your finances so your $150k feels bigger. Money isn’t worth that amount of daily stress!

      I went from a $150k to a $120k job for stress reasons, and life is sooo much better. I do have to be more careful with my finances, but now that I’ve accumulated a nice emergency fund and whittled down random unnecessary spending, my financial life doesn’t feel much different than it did $30k ago, but life is massively better.

      Reply ↓
    15. Anon for this*

      I am in this exact situation now and I am also on Team Don’t Do It. That you have stepped back from this role once before is very telling. As Rex says, you have only so much time on the planet, and that doesn’t look like enough additional $$ to outweigh the cons. Also I work in cancer research where we hear frequent talks about potential links between chronic stress/inflammation and increased cancer risk. I feel like I’m in the ‘golden handcuffs’ now and I don’t have a good exit plan as I’m in the last ~10 years of my working life – would have been far better to not have voluntarily made this move, and my stress levels are through the roof.

      Reply ↓
    16. Qwerty*

      If you wouldn’t like the job, stay where you are. That extra money will get funneled into all the things you’ll need to keep you sane – meal delivery so you don’t miss lunch, paying for things you don’t want because you missed the deadline to return them for a refund, vacations to relax where you end up stressing about work anyway, etc.

      It would be a different calculation if you had enjoyed the role last time and actively would like to do it again now that you have a calmer personal life. A pretty important thing to remember about high paying jobs that consume your life is part of that high salary is to cover the extra stress. There’s a reason so many high ranking people have stay at home spouses to cover all of the life and family things that need doing.

      Personally, there are jobs where no amount of salary could keep me happy. I’ve noticed whenever I make above 150 I quickly become miserable, so pretty much every job change has come with a pay cut and much happier me.

      Reply ↓
    17. Irish Teacher.*

      For me, it really depends. So long as I have enough to cover what I need and a bit over, life satisfaction would go before money. If the lower salary would mean I would be struggling to cover bills or would be skimping on groceries or would mean I couldn’t save anything and would be living paycheque to paycheque, then it would become a balance, but if my needs are covered, the paycheque wouldn’t be a big deal for me.

      I know it is trickier with kids though, as expenses are more likely to arise in the future.

      Reply ↓
    18. HonorBox*

      I think there’s value in liking your job, or even liking your job enough. If you know right now that you wouldn’t enjoy your job if you took the promotion, especially because you have specific experience that informs that, I don’t know that 40k is enough to dislike your job. You’d be more stressed, you’d have more work, and for what… a couple thousand more per month after taxes. You might be happier with a little less money and more time with your kids, more time to travel to see them, etc.

      Reply ↓
    19. A perfectly normal-size space bird*

      Struggling financially is very stressful for sure (which is pretty much my entire life). But dang, there is just some times it’s not worth the extra pay. My spouse currently makes 30k as a low-level tech flunky, which is significantly less than the 65k he made as a librarian. But his last librarian job was so stressful and dysfunctional that he almost was hospitalized and still gets sick thinking about going back to work in a library.

      I make 20-22k in good years at my job. I could make 30-40k if I accepted a promotion but I’ve seen what my boss goes through and they do not pay near enough for all the added work and stress she has to deal with. Especially as she has to deal with clients who increasingly want more for less while being jerks about all her hard work and upper executives who want overtime work from her direct report but refusing to approve overtime hours.

      I’d say if you’re comfortable enough financially then the extra pay isn’t worth it, especially if you would be unhappy. If it was an option to try it out and later move back to a less senior role without hurting you professionally, that could be worth it to find out since your circumstances have changed since the last time you held it.

      Reply ↓
    20. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Don’t do it.

      If the choice was about keeping a roof over your head and your kids fed that would be one thing, but choosing it at the other end is not worth it.

      I went the other way and cut 25% out of my budget. It was way less stressful and I can take off the days I need to go visit them at college.

      Reply ↓
    21. Blue Pen*

      That doesn’t seem worth it for twice the amount of stress. Twice the amount of stress would mean I was making at least $300K. I’m not sure if “evaluating” is the same as “managing,” but if it is, that’s a huge responsibility without even adding “dealing with crises all day long” to the mix. When you add that into the equation, it doesn’t seem worth it to me.

      You know what your breaking points are when it comes to work, and the benefit to your situation now is that you already know what you would be getting yourself into again (even if the surrounding circumstances are different). My breaking point is a long commute (coupled with a stressful job); after having both for years, there is truly no amount of money that would ever entice me to go back. I know how much those positions took from me, and I have zero interest in signing myself back up.

      Reply ↓
  9. N C Kiddle*

    Someone at work a couple of weeks ago made a throwaway comment that I have management potential. I might be overthinking what was just a joke (it’s a very dry humour kind of place) and even if not I don’t work enough hours to consider management. But I’m still wondering what about me says “management”. It was in response to me pointing out that we needed to keep a divan with its corresponding mattress while we were tidying the warehouse.

    Reply ↓
    1. HugeTractsofLand*

      It might have just been a joke because you were telling people what to do, but hey! If being a manager is something you’d never considered before and it vaguely interests you, why not explore that possibility in the future?

      Reply ↓
    2. Ruth*

      Thinking about the bigger picture is definitely a management skill! And that’s what you were doing in that example, even though it may seem small to you. I bet this wasn’t the first time that person noticed you exhibiting this behavior.

      Reply ↓
  10. Sterling*

    Someone at work sent an anonymous racist message and I’m afraid my coworkers think it was me.

    We have an anonymous message board employees can post questions and feedback to, and somebody wrote a racist/xenophobic comment there. The majority of my coworkers are non-white and/or immigrants. I’m white and American born. I’m also distanced from my coworkers by the fact that I’m quiet and almost never talk about non-work matters or participate in parties. As far as I know, my coworkers are fine with this. They make jokes about how quiet and mysterious I am sometimes (and I play along) but I don’t think they view me as rude, just weird. At least no one’s said anything to me about it.

    In the wake of this message, I’m worried my race and outsider status mean I’ll be suspected of writing the note. I don’t know how to address this, though, as saying anything about it not being me will only make me look more guilty. Leadership made a statement condemning the sentiment but isn’t going to try to identify the writer, so there’s unlikely to be a certain answer. But I’ve overheard my coworkers talking about it and saying they have their suspicions about who wrote it. I’m kind of paranoid they think it’s me and I don’t know how to make it clear it’s not without seeming guilty.

    Reply ↓
    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Actions speak volumes, you can tell who the racists and sexists etc are by the way they interact with others. The guy who always disengages and pulls out his phone in meetings as soon as a woman speaks that type of thing. The woman who treats people of a different race very coldly but is warm and friendly with everyone matching her. Patterns of microaggressions become very visible in time.

      Reply ↓
      1. Broadway Duchess*

        I don’t think this is necessarily true. Openly racists and sexist people are not the majority: there are waaaay more people who hold those views and are just quiet about it. In my experience, those are the people whose actions speak the loudest.

        For Sterling, warming up your communication with your colleagues could help, but really, it sounds more like your paranoia is winning and your coworkers haven’t indicated that they think you are the culprit.

        Reply ↓
    2. Washi*

      Have you advocated to leadership for identifying the writer and consequences for them? (I can’t tell if it’s just rumored that they won’t be trying to find the writer or if they have made an official statement to that effect.)

      I guess as a white person I would be less concerned for what my coworkers might think of me and more about advocating for safe workplace for my coworkers. It seems completely unacceptable to try to find the writer, seems like IT could do that fairly easily.

      Reply ↓
      2. Sterling*

        They have announced that and they claim it’s impossible to identify the person, though I doubt that’s true. I don’t have any influence on that decision, though.

        Reply ↓
        1. Hyaline*

          Maybe it is true–at least, true that they couldn’t with 100% certainty identify the person, so there’s no real way to follow through (like–they could identify that it came from Tim’s computer, but of course someone else could have used Tim’s computer to post the message, etc). What you CAN do is express disappointment that this is the case, and acknowledge the feelings of frustration or insecurity that your colleagues may be experiencing knowing that this person is getting away with it.

          Reply ↓
    3. MsM*

      Let your colleagues know that you understand leadership wants to handle this quietly, but you hope whoever is responsible doesn’t think they speak for others at the company, and you’re here to offer support in whatever way will be most helpful? Or just personally commit to being an ally and follow through?

      Reply ↓
      1. Sterling*

        This seems like a good approach, but I don’t know how to bring it up. Since I normally don’t participate in conversations, I’m not sure how to join a discussion or start one without it being incredibly awkward and suspicious.

        I guess my issue is that I *want* to say something and offer my support to my coworkers, but I worry that saying anything will be so out of the ordinary for me that it will seem like I’m trying to cover up being the note writer.

        Reply ↓
        1. MsM*

          I think it’s okay to own the awkwardness: “I know I’ve gotten a reputation for being ‘mysterious,’ but I really hope you all don’t think of me as unapproachable; I promise I’m just this much of a socially awkward dork with my friends, too.” (It’s worked for me, anyway.)

          Reply ↓
        2. In My Underdark Era*

          you could also address that directly by saying something like: I know I don’t socialize very much, but *in light of the message that just went around* I want you guys to know I value you all as colleagues and you can always talk to me. (or whatever message you want to convey)

          I wouldn’t think it’s strange for someone to be prompted to be uncharacteristically talkative when something unusual happens, especially if it’s the kind of thing that calls for loud vocal pushback like that message.

          Reply ↓
          2. Lemons*

            I agree with this, really nice approach. It’s also ok to be open about the fact that you feel awkward and don’t know how to bring this up smoothly.

            Reply ↓
        3. Venus*

          Is there one person who you know better or who is more vocal in the group? I would go to them and say that you haven’t known what to say because you’re typically quiet, and you are socially awkward about talking to the larger group, but you were so bothered by the awful thing said that you wanted to reach out and offer support in any way that they think could be helpful. Maybe add that you think it’s awful that the writer took advantage of anonymity, and you wish the company would do better.

          Reply ↓
      2. Tio*

        Yeah, I would probably mention you saw the message and were appalled by it, as vocally as you can. Because 1. It’s good for your coworkers to know 2. It’s good for management to know it bothers the employees and 3. Hopefully word will find its way to the writer and they will know that they are not agreed with by other who they may have assumed were on the same page due to similar features.

        Reply ↓
        1. Sloanicota*

          Yep, be vocal about your opposition to the message and the kind of culture you want the company to have. Find an opportunity to request change.

          Reply ↓
        2. WellRed*

          This is my advice. Condemn the message. Also, maybe consider whether paranoia about being thought a racist due to your carefully cultivated “outsider” status is really how you want to move through working life.

          Reply ↓
        3. Hyaline*

          Yep, this. And while I know it might seem out of the blue–this is the kind of thing that is very normal to shock normally quiet people into saying something. Don’t overthink that part of it.

          Reply ↓
        4. Washi*

          Yes, I realize that you may not be able to change the outcome but I would be voicing my displeasure to my manager and HR at the very least. I know you’re worried that speaking up is suspicious because you’re normally quiet, but I also think that silence can be interpreted as being unbothered by the situation.

          If you hear your coworkers talking about it, I might say something like “you all know I’m normally one to keep my opinions to myself but I was so appalled by this message and the fact that it seems like there will be no consequences for it.”

          Reply ↓
    4. HugeTractsofLand*

      Unfortunately I think all you can do here is just continue to be a good coworker who listens and respects others. I’m also pretty reserved at work, but when you DO interact with others, maybe add a little extra warmth or interest in their personal lives. You don’t have to be white to be racist, and if the real perpetrator was willing to write crap on the board, they’ve probably let comments slip elsewhere and will be found out eventually.

      Reply ↓
    5. Cruciatus*

      I’d probably ask who they think did it the next time it’s said around me, adding something about how I wished the company was going to look harder into it and you’re disappointed they don’t seem interested in knowing who did it. That should get the point across (hopefully!) that it wasn’t you and you’re upset that it happened as well.

      Reply ↓
    6. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      If you’re worried that your fellow employees think you’re racist, the solution is not to loudly proclaim how you are Not A Racist, it’s to do actual anti-racist stuff. Make sure to highlight the contributions of BIPOC team members, and to call out white people who interrupt them or minimize them. Push back then you see things like dress code being enforced in racist ways. Call out microaggressions when you see them.

      Reply ↓
    7. Ginger Cat Lady*

      I think this is a perfect example of why you should make a minimum effort to be friendly and connect with people at work. If they know you better, they would know you are not that kind of person.
      By keeping aloof and withdrawn, you’ve not established anything about you that would help people know that you are not that person.
      You don’t have to be BFFs with people at work, but being friendly and a little social is a good thing, even if it might not be your preference.

      Reply ↓
      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        Absolutely. Being so quiet and reserved means that the OP has no social capital for situations when she needs them to trust her.
        They might even suspect her, especially if the racist has been careful about their conduct and speech when not anonymous.

        Now is the time to break your silence and proclaim to the group that you are normally a very quiet person but you just had to say how disgusted you are with that racist message and ask if there is anything they would like you to do to support them.

        Reply ↓
    8. Nesprin*

      Show your ally-ship in small, visible ways. Put a pride pin on your door or a BLM sticker on your car.

      Also, go to a party for once.

      Reply ↓
    9. Irish Teacher.*

      I don’t think most people are going to assume you wrote a racist/xenophobic statement solely because you are white and quiet.

      Generally when people say they have their suspicions, it means they are pretty sure somebody holds those views. Racists generally show themselves and I suspect your coworkers who have their suspicions are either correct or are suspecting somebody who at least holds racist views.

      If you don’t treat people differently based on their race, they probably aren’t going to jump to suspecting you.

      Nothing is certain, of course, but I don’t think you have any reason to worry based on what you have said. If they were treating you differently or something, I might say something different but as it is, it doesn’t sound like there is any reason to think anybody suspects you.

      Reply ↓
      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        If there is no obvious suspect, then the oddball does get suspected – we’ve seen this too often in criminal cases where public opinion hammers the wrong person.
        Hopefully there is another suspect who has given off hostile vibes rather than the merely unapproachable vibes of the OP.

        Reply ↓
    10. HonorBox*

      I can understand that you’re nervous about now vocalizing something when you haven’t, but I don’t think this situation requires you to stand on your desk and make a loud proclamation. You can speak up as opportunity presents itself. Don’t go looking to start a conversation, but lean in if people are talking around you. And show support in other ways, as others have suggested. Be an ally in deed, and continue to be an ally. That’ll show them your true beliefs and support.

      Reply ↓
    11. Indolent Libertine*

      Could you post to that same place saying “wow, I’m really appalled that anyone would hold such offensive views, let alone feel comfortable expressing them out loud to co-workers like this!” and sign your name to it?

      Reply ↓
  11. TeenieBopper*

    For the first time ever in my career, I have to actively job search. I’m currently a senior data analyst and I’ve been in this career for about 10 years. I’ve always moved on and up easily, as in I’ve always been recruited, I was never looking. I’m targeting data/BI analyst positions, analytics engineer positions, and as a stretch data engineer positions.

    I’m super nervous and anxious. I’m getting rejection emails and no interviews for the first time. The market is wildly different than it was even two years ago. I’m also worried about my experience. Ten years is a lot, I think, but I’ve always worked solo or with one other person so I’ve never had a mentor or guidance and was always wearing multiple hats. I’m not a statistician, but I did some stats work. I’m not a business analyst, but I helped streamline a lot of processes. I’m not a data engineer, but I did a lot of engineering tasks. I would just show up to work, see a problem that needed solving, and hack together a solution with the tools I had available.

    The internet tells me that data analytics/engineering/etc in the healthcare space (where I have the majority of my experience) is growing, but it just seems seems more difficult to find a job. I figure I’ve got approximately six weeks before they pull the plug on my position and I’m just kinda freaking out.

    Reply ↓
    1. Procedure Publisher*

      Rejection emails are very common for me in my job search during the past year. The problem is that there is just a lot of competition. As a procedure person, I know a lot of people got laid off at the same time that I did.

      This job market is worst than the one in 2012. I only got hired because I went with contracting, and I had interview for a contract job yesterday where the message was clear as day about next steps being to get you hired for this position. Seriously, I recommend contracting because of my experiences now and back in 2012.

      Reply ↓
    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      This particular field is absolutely recessionary, don’t feel bad. The only place I see people bragging about getting jobs easily in these sort of roles is in some pockets of reddit, and TBH, the stories seem fake or exaggerated, but either way, are statistically rare. If you google BLS employment change by industry monthly changes, for example, you will see that both “information” and “professional and business services” have been in the negative for > 6 months. There is also the huge issue of mass outsourcing (I saw one stat estimating it at 300k white collar jobs last year) that anyone in data knows about since it’s almost a guarantee you will have new coworkers or partners at companies you work with abroad, usually in India.

      I would not feel bad about feeling like you can’t take internet advice, assuming it’s reddit. People pretend to have four jobs on the overemployed subreddit; in other places, some people have a weird penchant to pretend they’re so in demand that they can job hop even in bad markets.

      In my larger area, the only data jobs I see are the same ones that continually get posted, i.e., ghost jobs.

      Perhaps not the answer you want, but hopefully it helps you feel less crazy.

      Reply ↓
    3. Sigh*

      There is a desperate need for people with data analytics skills in healthcare. Problem is that outside of consulting roles, very few of them will be clearly labeled as analytics roles. If you’ve been applying only in IT departments, broaden your scope. I work in operations, others with similar job descriptions work in quality, or supply chain. or finance. The market overall is rougher now – in my area a couple of struggling/closing facilities flooded the field with applications. Hang in there and keep trying. All you really need is 1 good yes.

      Good luck !!

      Reply ↓
      1. TeenieBopper*

        Do you find that job titles align with the actual job? Like, would you expect to see data/BI analyst/engineer as a job title in one of those non IT departments? That’s what I have all my alerts set up for.

        I worry about being in a non-It department because so much of what I’ll need to do and so much of my skilset is dependent on, for lack of a better term, IT tools (sql, power BI, scripting, data pipelines) and I know how soloed/territorial departments can be.

        Reply ↓
        1. I need to make lunch*

          For us, “engineer” generally means the engineering department. “Industrial engineer” is process improvement and likely requires a degree in that.

          Reply ↓
        2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          I’ve been in data science for a long time now and one place that I’ve NEVER seen data engineering or analyst or science roles is IT. Everywhere I’ve ever been, IT is all about hardware and software support and networking, not about data or writing code (even SQL). Look for the title, not the department.

          Reply ↓
        3. Parenthesis Guy*

          Honestly, I wouldn’t expect to find most Power BI jobs in the IT department. I’d expect to find them in analytics or something similar.

          Reply ↓
      2. I need to make lunch*

        Another healthcare worker here to +1 this: none of these jobs are in IT in my place. IT is physical computers, getting things installed, pushing out updaes, etc. Analytics will be things like “health systems specialist”.

        Reply ↓
    4. HugeTractsofLand*

      This is stressful, I’m sorry! I’ve found that data analysis roles vary widely across companies and industries, so it’s harder to find roles that exactly match. Analysts end up doing a little of everything- as you described- so you really have to spell out why what you do matches what the company wants. I don’t know how long you’ve been searching, but if you aren’t getting any bites after a few weeks you might want to retool your resume and/or cover letter to more closely align with each role, or re-examine if you’re missing some qualification that these roles are asking for.

      Reply ↓
    5. saskia*

      In this job market, don’t sell yourself short. Find a job, then adapt, the way you know you can. My best advice, as someone who has been job searching, is apply within 24-48 hours of the job being posted. Companies are inundated after that window. (And M-W are the best days to apply.)

      Reply ↓
  12. Cal*

    If you want to negotiate 2 aspects of a job offer (like pay and PTO), should you bundle them together into a single ask? or make an ask about one, see what the answer is, then make an ask about the other?

    Reply ↓
    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I’d ask for both at once, because if you ask for one and there’s any back and forth to come to an agreement and then you say “actually I want this too” it’s going to be kind of annoying/not a great look.

      I totally get the inclination to test the waters with one first but you’re better off being up front with what you want.

      Reply ↓
    3. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      Together. on the hiring side, I’m going to be deeply annoyed if we align on one and then I have to go back to our HR team to start the whole process again for the other. Especially since those two benefits intersect – our ability to come up on pay may be influenced by your ask on PTO and vice-versa. so if we say yes to your pay number we might have to revoke that yes if you come back with a PTO ask after.

      Reply ↓
  13. IT Kat*

    I am in a difficult position. I am one of the finalists for a job at an organization – however, I am currently a contractor for said organization. While normally this would not be a problem, my contracting company has been with this organization for decades. They will be upset, at the very least, that I’m jumping ship. And I will have to work directly with them after I move, if I get the job. How would be the best way to put in my notice, and still preserve the relationship?

    Reply ↓
    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Stress to contracting company that it was an offer you couldn’t say no to, that you never dreamed of leaving them but the additional pay/benefits/stability was just too tempting. Mention that you’re pleased you’ll still get to work with them from your new role so it’s not a total goodbye. Thank them for all the years of experience and opportunities they gave you. Basically just be a teacher’s pet, it works!

      Reply ↓
      1. IT Kat*

        Thank you! I’ll try that. I can also say the job fell in my lap and wasn’t actively looking, which is true I was recruited for it. Being a teacher’s pet, I can work on that!

        Reply ↓
        1. Lemons*

          This is a thing that happens, it happened to me! My contracting company was bummed but graceful (and took me back when the job turned out to suck, lol). You’ll probably still be working with them (just on the other side of the arrangement) so you can emphasize how you’re excited to help improve the companies’ relationships and advocate for them to get get more projects.

          Reply ↓
    2. Dinwar*

      I’ve had a number of people do this to me. There’s one role that seems to be primarily there to train people for our client to poach.

      It irks me, sure, but at the end of the day it’s no different from you joining any other company that I end up working with. It’s the sort of thing that happens routinely–most industries are fairly small communities, after all–and part of being a professional is treating former employees with grace and tact. After all, you may end up being my client, or you may end up working for me, or I may end up working for you in the future. And the critical thing to remember is that your employer has ZERO hold on you unless you’ve signed a contract to the contrary. Your obligation is to yourself, not your company.

      I think the bigger issue, and something to seriously consider, is whether you want to remain with a company this dysfunctional. I would advise against it. Anyone who uses “If you leave I’m going to be furious” as an argument for you staying is almost certainly abusive in other ways as well.

      Reply ↓
      1. IT Kat*

        Oh they didn’t say that if I left they’d be furious. We’ve had a lot of people jump ship recently and the main expression they have is “We are disappointed and please talk to us if you aren’t happy” but with a lot of people it’s not a question of happiness, it’s the pay and stability – because sure, they’ve had this client for decades but that doesn’t mean someone new might not get in charge at the client and choose a different contractor.

        Reply ↓
        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          I think that’s on the company though and just a cost of doing business. Most people want a full-time job with benefits over a contract position, and if you’re a contracting company you aren’t offering that. They could be the best dang contracting company in the world, they’re just not going to beat out a job with steady hours, no end date, PTO, insurance, etc.

          Reply ↓
        2. Venus*

          In that case I’d highlight that you weren’t looking but stability was a big factor. I’ve worked with some contractors and completely understood when they got opportunities for big companies that were regular jobs.

          It will also make a difference if you’ve been there for a year or three. If you’ve been with the contractor at least a few years then it will feel more normal to move on, whereas if you haven’t been there long then I’d be a bit more apologetic.

          Reply ↓
        3. Mad Harry Crewe*

          I’d like to gently push back on your belief that “We are disappointed and please talk to us if you aren’t happy” is equivalent to “upset” (from your original comment).

          Is there something unspoken going on that makes it clear the company harbors ill-will towards the folks who left? If so, that’s not on you. I’d go look at Alison’s previous letters about giving notice to vindictive bosses.

          Is this something from your past, that is making you interpret a pretty mild statement as evidence of bad feelings? If so, this is something to feel out and explore (with friends, in therapy, journal, whatever), but past experience or trauma is not a predictor of the future. If you’re used to a passive-aggressive “disappointment” from relatives or previous jobs, it’s worth unpicking so you don’t carry that forward and expect ill intent where there isn’t any.

          Either is possible! Based on just what you wrote here, I don’t get “upset” from “disappointed” – I’m also disappointed when good colleagues leave for other places, but that doesn’t affect my opinion of the colleague in the slightest, nor would I have trouble working with them in the future.

          Reply ↓
        1. carrot cake*

          I mean, people leave for other jobs, regardless of the circumstances afterward.

          Can you elaborate on why you’re so concerned about your future relationship with your current company should you leave? It’s not clear to me.

          Reply ↓
    3. ArtK*

      Have the hiring company check their contract with the contracting company. “No poaching” clauses are very common and could cause you a lot of grief.

      Reply ↓
    4. ContractorHire*

      Also make sure this doesn’t violate the terms of your contract or the contract your new employer has with the agency. It would only be allowed with the explicit permission of the contracting agency for every contract I’ve ever had, and the new employer would likely need to pay the agency a buyout fee.

      I actually did this at my current job. It took almost six months to make the transition because my new org was unwilling to pay the fees the agency wanted for me to switch to employee. They ended up negotiating a compromise where I was allowed to go to the new company sooner than the contract permitted but I had to remain a contractor for 3 more months from the time of the agreement (which took three months to negotiate).

      Tread carefully here, or either you or your new company or both could be sued.

      Reply ↓
      1. IT Kat*

        We’ve already had several people jump ship to the company from the contractor, but I’ll check (carefully, I don’t want to be outed) to see if there’s a policy about it. I’m a full time employee of the contractor company so I don’t have a contract myself, and I think it’s at-will, but can’t hurt to research.

        Reply ↓
        1. RagingADHD*

          Usually no-poach / buyout clauses apply to the contract between the agency and the client, not to you. You are free will, but the client company may have to pay to hire you.

          This has been common practice at all but 1 agency I’ve worked with, and the agencies with buyout clauses tend to be perfectly happy to have people bought out. They make money either way, and it improves their relationship with the client company to be a reliable source of talent.

          Reply ↓
          1. ContractorHire*

            it’s actually been part of nearly every contract I’ve had as the employee too – while I was actively working via the contract and for a set time afterward (usually 6 months or a year) I had to agree not to seek out employment at the client and let them know if the client contacted me about employment before I accepted it. I believe they charged the client a finders fee of sorts if they wanted to hire me and then they’d waive the requirement.

            Reply ↓
    5. HonorBox*

      I think you have a great opportunity to present this very positively both for you and your present company. This is a job that you were recruited for, not that you were looking for. It is something you can’t turn down if it is offered (presuming that’s ultimately the case). Plus your knowledge of your present company gives you unique insight and allows for your present company to have a supporter on the inside.

      Reply ↓
  14. Confused Newbie*

    I’m in my first post college job and it seems to be a “good” company. We have reasonable PTO, paid parental leave, and a good mix of male and female executives. My boss just promoted into a senior position. He was quite surprised at the opportunity, because he didn’t apply for the job. Apparently this company only advertises entry and mid level positions (like mine). All senior positions are always internal promotions and they rarely have interviews. Their philosophy is that your current job performance is “the interview” so they don’t need any additional information. Is this common? I have several more career levels before I would qualify for a senior position, so there are still interviews in my future. I’m undecided if I like this system.

    Reply ↓
    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      It’s very weird. You would want the chance to decide on your end if you want the higher position, usually very different responsibilities and workflow. Like current job may be better than moving up if you are having personal life dynamics (sick spouse, small kids, dying parents) that make a less stressful more reliable schedule valuable to you. Or you may just know you love being hands on projects and dislike managing meetings.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hyaline*

        Well–it doesn’t say the boss was forced into it, but that he was “surprised by the opportunity.” I don’t think we can read into this that he was told “show up on Monday to the C-suite or don’t show up at all”–it’s reading to me more like he was offered an opportunity he didn’t anticipate.

        Reply ↓
    2. Not a Girl Boss*

      Even when it is not so broadly published, this is common in all companies. Most larger companies technically post and interview for senior level roles, but have a robust succession plan going back 2-3 levels. Like, VP will be replaced by one of these two directors, who will be replaced by these 4-7 senior managers. Then the company invests in everyone in that succession plan to ensure they are getting the exposure and experience needed to be ready to step up.

      I do think its weird he was surprised – in my experience, people know when they’re on a succession plan, and still have to apply for and interview for a job. But its more of a foregone conclusion and formality with a smaller pool of competition than, say, hiring a new engineer.

      Reply ↓
    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      And… opposite view. I don’t think this is weird at all. I’ve never interviewed for a position I was promoted into, I just got the promotion. Usually it’s a matter of experience and adding on responsibilities. It’s also something I discuss with my manager before it happens. If I wanted to turn it down, I could. But in every place I’ve worked, promotions don’t require extra interviews.

      If I were asked to shift to a senior position in a different area or type of role, then I would probably want to meet with people before I accept, but I wouldn’t find it especially unusual. The only weird part here for me is that your boss was surprised, but then, I was surprised when I was promoted more quickly than usual to a senior position. It was political. But I got over my surprise pretty quickly and just accepted the higher paycheck and the greater responsibilities.

      Reply ↓
    4. Strive to Excel*

      I don’t think it’s weird to not have interviews at that point; if the company wants to only promote internally, you’re going to have a smaller pool of potentials and you have the time and ability to get a feel for how they work.

      You said he didn’t interview. Was he offered the position? Or did they say “Good morning Bob, you’re the Senior VP of Llama Grooming now! Here’s your new badge and office location”. Because *that* would be weird.

      Reply ↓
    5. PinkAxolotl*

      I think it’s somewhat unusual to have a policy that all senior positions have to be internal promotions, but I don’t think it’s weird to not conduct interviews for internal promotions. In all the companies I’ve worked at, the preference was to fill a position with an internal candidate if possible, because people who already work here are a known commodity, and offering opportunities for career development keeps employees happy and engaged. If there was a need to fill a role and no one in the company had the appropriate skill set, then we’d hire someone in, but the default is usually to see if someone who already works here can “step up” into the role.

      Reply ↓
    6. Dinwar*

      It’s how my group within my company works too. Occasionally they’ll hire someone with some exceptional skillset–we once hired the guy who literally wrote the book on a process we do, and he came in with a lot of seniority obviously!–but the vast majority of the time it’s internal hires. The logic is that you’ve spent 5, 10, 20 years learning what this role requires, AND you’ve learned what you’re asking people to do, so you’ll be batter than some random person off the street. The latter is significant in my industry. We ask people to do some pretty gnarly things, and it comes off different when it comes from someone who’s ben there. Plus, you can’t really manage something you don’t understand.

      I like the system. First, it establishes a way to move up the ranks–you know you’re not in a dead-end position. Second, everyone in my chain of command knows what the lower ranks are going through. I’ve worked with folks who don’t understand it, and they are horrible managers; those who’ve been in the trenches understand the realities of it and plan for it. You can also build relationships with folks. I can approach my boss’s boss because we have a history–we pulled samples together, he stole my food that time, our wives were pregnant at the same time, that sort of thing.

      On the flip side, the downside is that we’re all very good at the way we do things, but we struggle with how other groups do things. This can be a problem when you try to expand your network, or if systems change (you get bought out, regulations change, etc). “This is the way we always have done things” becomes sacred–tradition is stronger than law–and can really hold you back. My group is dealing with some of that currently. So there are tradeoffs.

      Reply ↓
    7. DrSalty*

      This is how it works at my company. There are no interviews for promotions. But that said, we work closely with people about their career goals and opportunities to move up, so it’s a little weird to me he’d describe himself as “surprised”. Feels like this is something he should have been talking about with his boss for a while before it actually happened.

      Reply ↓
    8. RagingADHD*

      IME, it’s pretty common practice to promote internally without a formal interview process, just a discussion or series of discussions about interest and expectations for the new role.

      The part that seems more unusual is the idea that this never happens at lower levels, plus that senior roles must be internal. Everywhere I’ve ever worked considered internal candidates if possible (even if the candidate was never approached), and looked externally if there was no good match, at all levels.

      It does make me wonder how this works out practically, if someone senior gets sick or retires suddenly and there isn’t anyone at the next level down who is well established enough to move up yet. It seems like it could cause problems with people having to double up their responsibilities, or get thrown into the deep end before they are ready. Perhaps it is less rigid IRL than in concept.

      Reply ↓
    9. Blue Pen*

      I don’t think it’s weird in that it shouldn’t be done, but more “weird” in that it’s not typically done this way.

      Maybe I haven’t fully thought out all the ramifications, but IDK, I actually kind of like this setup. If someone has done well at the company and has proven themselves capable for a more senior role, I see no reason as to why they shouldn’t be promoted into that position (and not have to compete against an external candidate).

      Reply ↓
    10. Generic Name*

      At my last company, which was in my opinion very dysfunctional, the promotion I got was a separate job I interviewed for (and there were external interviewees I competed against). At my current company, I got a surprise promotion 10 months after I started. I wasn’t surprised I got the promotion (all feedback I was getting was that I was working above my level), but the timing was a surprise.

      Reply ↓
  15. jvf1*

    What websites would you consider work appropriate – ie to read when you need a brain break? None? Do you do all your browsing on your phone instead? Curious to hear folks’ thoughts.

    Reply ↓
    1. CherryBlossom*

      I prefer to brows on my phone when I can; I’d rather my employer not know what I’m looking at. But if I have to use the work computer for whatever reason, I stick to news sites and work blogs. I keep it squeaky clean, just in case.

      Reply ↓
    2. IT Kat*

      I always browse on my phone, or if working from home, personal computer (which shares my desk with work computer). IT can see what you’re browsing and I would rather safe than sorry, like accidentally clicking on an ad and going somewhere unfortunate.

      Reply ↓
    3. N C Kiddle*

      I haven’t had a job with work computers since way back before I had a smartphone, but now that they’re common it does seem like the logical way to make sure nobody takes exception to what you’re browsing.

      Reply ↓
    4. Jessica Ganschen*

      At the moment, I pretty much only do AAM and weather.com. Most of my personal reading is on Libby or Nook, and I wouldn’t want to login to those on a work computer, just in case.

      Reply ↓
    6. Nicki Name*

      AAM, of course :) (Though I only comment from a personal device.)

      But also:

      Nonpartisan news sources (e.g. the BBC, or my local paper’s site)
      Work-related news (I’m in tech, so sites like The Register and Ars Technica)

      Reply ↓
    7. WheresMyPen*

      I do browse on my work computer but my job involves a lot of research of all kinds of sources, contacting people through social media anyway so I’m not forbidden from using those sites. I try to limit brain breaks to sites like AAM, newspaper websites etc but I do occasionally have a look at Instagram or Facebook if I need to

      Reply ↓
    8. Tradd*

      Industry related sites (like for trade/shipping news), CBP notices (I’m a customs broker), AAM. At lunch, I surf on my phone.

      Reply ↓
    9. Blue Pen*

      Definitely AAM, but I also try to pull out a book to give myself an actual break. I would also recommend Kottke.org for some variety.

      Reply ↓
    10. Dinwar*

      Funny story: I had a coworker who was an archaeologist, doing some preconstruction (signing and licensing) work that involved an archaeological literature review. She found the website for a researcher who essentially wrote everything about the area in question, and had them available for download on his website. Which is great–saves time and money! Unfortunately the guy also had an adult photography hobby, which he also had on his website. And my coworker accidently clicked the wrong link (it was not a well-set-up website, and she thought “Photos” meant HISTORIC photos).

      We ALL got called into a meeting about IT security and work-appropriate websites at that point! The end result was that IT basically washed their hands of us scientists. There was a perfectly legitimate work-related reasons to be on that website, what she did was standard procedure for the industry, and we can’t control what folks put on their personal websites.

      Reply ↓
    12. Anxious autistic dude*

      I usually mix between industry-related and local news. AAM is actually industry related in part. When I need a five minute break, I like to read the local news from my parents’ home country, which has been nice since the water cooler buddy who shares my native language went to a different job :(

      Reply ↓
  16. Tea Monk*

    What books or classes do you guys use to mediate emotional situations, especially those that don’t have immediate solutions that will be satisfying to the parties?

    Reply ↓
    1. Jay (no, the other one)*

      Crucial Conversations – I’ve read the book, which is excellent. They also have a website and a variety of workshops and courses, which I haven’t experienced.

      Nonviolent Communication is also a good starting point.

      Reply ↓
      3. MissMaple*

        Oh, I’m taking their training class at the beginning of December at my boss’s recommendation, glad to hear good things

        Reply ↓
  17. Staff Aug Blues*

    I have a sort of rare skill set and a doctorate, which is unusual but not unheard of in my field. After a recent layoff, I took a job as a “flexible temp” employee with Company A and am working as staff aug at Company B, a very large firm. I earn an hourly wage and have minimal benefits.

    If I understand correctly, I’m a temp. A skilled temp, but not a career guy. I like this fine; it’s less responsibility and an easier job and I’m earning enough to pay the bills and buy art supplies. My supervisor with Company A understands and supports that. But that’s not what’s happening.

    Company B has very involved processes and procedures and my supervisor there expects me to learn them end-to-end. I’m told I cannot expect to become useful to the team for 6 months to a year. He expects that when I do learn everything, I will do exactly the same work and have the same responsibilities as the full-time employees of Company B. They have been frustrated by people leaving in the past. I’m spending weekends and evenings just recovering from the frustrations and absurdities of the job.

    I thought I was there to do the scut work and free their own staff up to do the end-to-end projects.

    I want to keep the job but don’t want to get paid wages for doing the same thing that salary-earners do. I certainly am capable of it, but I specifically wanted a job that’s easier and leaves time and energy for other things.

    Am I misunderstanding what “staff aug” means?
    If so, how can I adjust my expectations?
    If not, how can I communicate with my Company B Supervisor that our expectations are not in alignment?

    Reply ↓
    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      So have I understood correctly that you are employed by A, but “hired out” to B? If that’s the case, I would talk to your contact at A, rather than your supervisor at B, about expectations.

      When I’ve encountered staff augmentation it’s been closer to what you describe with B. Someone (or a pool of people) trained on some aspects of the company’s work, so that they can be added as additional contributors to a project or process and the company can “flex” up and down the amount of additional people depending on business need without having to keep hiring and laying off.

      Reply ↓
    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      That seems frustrating, like you’re a temp assigned by a different company so you don’t get the benefits/salary of the actual company you’re working for? Do they have a timeline for transitioning temps into full time employees? I know some major industry companies don’t hire full time, they hire you as a contractor for 2 years then if it went well you transition to full time employee with better benefits and salary. If they have a routine pipeline then you can make a more informed decision about if you want this.

      First talk to your current employer the company who assigned you to this company, ask them about transitions to full time and what the expectations are in terms of type of work, and how long of an assignment to this position can you expect. (Are they trying to situate you in a full time role vs like you constantly move around covering maternity leaves, sabbaticals, transitions etc).

      Then you back to your current supervisor about it. Make sure you emphasize you like working for them in that conversation too. But that you just want clarification about how long they see you staying in this role and would you ever be eligible for full time salary status.

      Reply ↓
      1. Staff Aug Blues*

        But I don’t want to be a full-time employee and I don’t want the responsibility of spending a year learning their systems. I took a temp job on purpose.

        Reply ↓
          1. Filosofickle*

            Yes, talk to A. You likely need to be reassigned. B is hiring for a specific kind of “contract employee” role, one you don’t want to fill. They are not going to change their expectations — nor should they, honestly — they need a different person who can meet them.

            I’ve been both things, a staff aug temp and a contract FTE. But my true temp work was largely administrative or lower-level. When placed in skilled contract roles, I have typically been expected to essentially act like and do the work of a regular employee. Where I think B may have unrealistic expectations is wanting a long-term commitment. Tech is where I’ve seen the most long term (1-2 year) placements but when you don’t offer people strong stability you can’t be surprised when they don’t stick around.

            Reply ↓
      2. Qwerty*

        Staff Aug is basically a regular team member except they are a contractor (either direct or through a consulting firm). The main difference is just that they might not go to company specific meetings like an All Hands or training seminar if it isn’t directly related to the work they do, though many companies treat their contractors as close to real employees as they can.

        When I was in consulting, our staff aug contracts involved people doing all the same duties as full time employees. Sometimes those people would be the highest performers on the team – we’d even place people as leads and managers to run the team of full time employees!

        I do find it weird that Company B is willing to spend 6-12 months training you because that is a big investment to make. However, there are a surprising number of companies who find it easier to employ mostly contractors rather than full time employees, so maybe this is one of them.

        Reply ↓
    3. Happily Retired*

      It sounds like Company B has a huge mismatch between work description and pay. From your description, it sounds like you are expected to perform to FTE level without matching compensation. No wonder they’ve had people leaving in the past!

      I don’t know if this is a winnable solution, from your description. If you’re ok with the pay, I guess just discuss the true nature of the job along with its expectations with your supervisor, and decide if it’s right for you.

      Reply ↓
    4. I need to make lunch*

      If I’m understanding your employment situation correctly, you need to tell your boss at Comapny A (who is your actual boss) that you can’t be what Company B wants, and reiterate that you’re trying to be a temp and you want to do temp things, not “be an FTE worker getting paid temp pay”. I’ve had that situation in the past where it wasn’t exactly this, but I was getting the work done of a full time permanent Subject Matter Expert person, while getting paid temporary worker/will be gone at the end of the year wages and the complete lack of respect that comes with not actually being a “real employee, you’re just a temp”. It was a bad situation.

      You may need to leave Company A entirely and should start job hunting for temp agencies that are more in line with what you want to be doing.

      Reply ↓
    5. Nesprin*

      So hiring a scientific temp (or a travel nurse, or a advanced degree holding consultant) should cost ~3x what a FTE will cost: the standard rate + the need to get up to speed quickly + the need to go away at the end is basically 3x the going rate.

      If B is expecting a FTE and paying a part timer’s wage, you need to ask A to reassign you.

      Reply ↓
  18. Rose*

    Hello all! I’ve been tasked with planning the office’s holiday group activity, and I’m fairly new to the job. We’re a small group of about 10 people. Some folks in the office have expressed a dislike for arts and crafts. For a past outing we did bowling. Any ideas? Thanks!

    Reply ↓
    2. Hlao-roo*

      Past company outings I’ve gone to in the winter include:

      – Happy hour drinks (typically leave work ~1 hour early, drink 1-2 rounds together over the course of 2 hours)
      – Team lunch during the work day (typically a longer than normal lunch break that counts as “work” time)
      – Team dinner at an upscale restaurant

      Also, if people liked the past bowling outing, go bowling again!

      Reply ↓
    3. WheresMyPen*

      Indoor mini golf or bars with games like air hockey, axe throwing etc could be fun depending on the interests and abilities of your team? Or a cooking class?

      Reply ↓
    4. Ashley*

      Depending on religion the white elephant gift exchange can be fun. My favorite white elephant though was organized by someone with horsing tendencies and supplied the gifts.
      Again if you guys are all in the more Christian side of holiday celebrating some of the figure out the song title games can be fun.

      Reply ↓
    6. Dinwar*

      As Ashley said, a gift exchange could be good. We did a Dirty Santa a few times and it went pretty well. Especially when people were encouraged to bring work-appropriate gag gifts. Never saw someone so happy to get assorted rubber O-rings before, but he was using them that day on the job!

      Alternatively you could do a volunteer thing. There are a bunch of organizations looking for donations or volunteers this time of year. A blood drive wouldn’t be a horrible idea, but something like a canned goods donation box or the like can work as well. My office used to do this routinely in the pre-Covid days.

      If you have the budget you can provide a free lunch. There are a lot of places catering holiday meals this time of year–I’ve seen three in the past week advertising for it–and free food is usually a good sell. Even people who don’t celebrate the holiday will usually appreciate free food. Just be sure you know what folks can/will eat.

      After that, it’s just going to depend on your office. Without knowing more about the folks who work there it’s hard to say what would or wouldn’t be acceptable.

      Reply ↓
    7. The Prettiest Curse*

      We’re doing indoor mini golf for our team gathering this year.

      A fun past work event that I attended was a virtual escape room that was essentially timed puzzle solving. We weren’t shut in an actual room at any point, we were all just sitting around big tables trying to solve a series of riddles, so it was a nice brain workout too!
      If you have a local retro arcade or games/computing museum, you can often old arcade games for events, though that might work best for groups already into gaming.

      Reply ↓
    8. HonorBox*

      We have a relatively small group too, and we used to go out for a holiday lunch. Following COVID and a particularly boisterous luncheon one year, we brought food in and have a luncheon on site. I’m running point this year, and we have the following planned:

      Dirty Santa – work provides gift cards/lotto tickets/other prizes – and people draw numbers to determine who picks envelopes. Each gift can be stolen twice.

      Some sort of game – I’ve done holiday trivia and name that (holiday) tune in the past.

      Last year we added what we called a garage sale gift exchange. People bring in random stuff from home in good shape. For those who brought a gift, they get to pick a gift.

      I’ve asked everyone to send me their favorite holiday song and I’m building a playlist.

      I also hide an ornament in public spaces in our building for six days, and if someone finds an ornament, they get a prize.

      A couple of years ago, we also started a recognition program. I have a bunch of plastic buttons that have Santa on them. If a teammate helps you or does something well, you give them a chip. Each of those is an entry into a drawing for a larger gift card or a free PTO day.

      We have a great time and it is a great opportunity for people to just have fun together. It is low stakes because it doesn’t require any sort of skill, other than knowledge with trivia. Also low stakes because we’re on site and don’t have to account for much cost outside of gift cards and the meal.

      Reply ↓
    9. Semi-retired admin*

      I’m not sure if this qualifies as an activity, per se. but at my previous job we drew names around Thanksgiving. We would then purchase a toy that represents our person and bring it, wrapped to the a company provided lunch. We would do the gift exchange and describe why we chose that toy for that person. Sometimes the stories were really funny, sometimes very touching. All the toys then were donated to Toys for Tots or Blue Santa. This was 100% optional, and if anyone chose no to participate, they just joined for lunch and to watch and laugh along with the shenanigans.

      Reply ↓
    10. Quinalla*

      Play some board and/or card games together, either something that welcomes all 10 people or split up into 2-4 groups. Maybe have a puzzle available as well.

      Reply ↓
  19. A Simple Narwhal*

    Do people cover their webcam when not actively on a video call? I always cover mine, whether it’s with a built-in cover or a sticky note, and I thought that was pretty standard. More and more webcams seem to come with built-in covers than they used to, so I figured the general consensus was to cover it when not actively using it.

    But I’ve noticed around the office a surprising number of people working with their cameras uncovered. (Our cameras have a big manual flap so it’s very obvious and noticeable if it’s covered or not.) We hot desk too so it’s not just the same person/people over and over, plus a lot of times I come to my desk of the day and the camera is uncovered.

    Am I just overly paranoid after seeing that episode of Mr. Robot years ago?

    Reply ↓
    2. Lurker*

      I cover my work desktop webcam with a post it. For my personal laptop (with built in webcam), I disable the camera and cover with a post it unless I need to use the camera.

      Reply ↓
    3. Harlowe*

      I purchased a plastic sliding cover and fully intend to use it, but I often forget because camera-on meetings are extremely rare at my company, so I’m not in the habit. I only just realized when I read your question that I’ve had mine open since Tuesday, because I was camera-on then, but not since.

      Reply ↓
    4. Rocky*

      I used to cover mine with a post-it, but ended up cutting a small piece of an index card and folding it in half to place over it a few months ago (which is nice because it’s reusable).

      I’ve been paranoid about it ever since I heard about the school that was using webcams on laptops to watch students while they were at home. I don’t think anyone at my company would be watching me, and I only have my laptop open one day a week when I work from home, but it feels weird to not cover it anyway.

      Reply ↓
    5. Insert Clever Name Here*

      I only use the camera sporadically (our camera culture is very team dependent, and I’m on a team and support a team that are generally camera off) but I try to remember to slide my cover back over the camera when I’m not using it. It is not one of the things I’m paranoid about technology-wise, but I can understand other people being much more aware of it than me.

      Reply ↓
    6. UnCivilServant*

      I apply electrical tape to any camera affixed to a device other than the cameras I bought to be cameras. I do not uncover these to participate in video calls, and will tape them over again if anyone tries to remove the electrical tape.

      Reply ↓
    7. Antilles*

      My webcam is *always* covered if it’s not actively being used. Always. Frankly, if I have a webcam where the built in cover isn’t clearly obvious, I’ll often do the built-in cover AND a sticky note just so it’s visually clear that it’s covered.

      Reply ↓
    8. Square Root of Minus One*

      I do it too, and it’s not paranoia but a very easy “better safe than sorry”.
      When I bought my webcam I wanted one with a sliding cover (clicking break more easily) and that was harder to find than I expected. Works like a charm.

      Reply ↓
      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        Agree, I think I’d more categorize my “paranoia” as “better safe than sorry”. There’s no downside to covering your camera when it’s not in use, but definitely some for leaving it uncovered (even if highly unlikely).

        I’m sure it’s a different mindset at work too – for the most part what are you doing in the office that would be bad to have surreptitiously recorded? Though I still wouldn’t want it, even if it’s just me making faces at annoying emails. And it’s a good habit to establish for when you’re working remotely.

        Reply ↓
    10. Local garbage committee*

      I haven’t seen that episode but I figure if I’m in office and my employer wants to surveil me they have much easier ways of doing it? (Also not sure what someone else would gain my hacking my camera in the office but I don’t deal with trade secrets)

      Reply ↓
      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        Fwiw the episode involved a woman getting blackmailed with video taken from hacking her (uncovered) webcam.

        Granted this happened in her apartment not the office, but the idea that someone could be recording you through your laptop camera without knowing was definitely terrifying.

        Reply ↓
    12. spcepickle*

      At work, in the office – I don’t cover, what am I doing in my office that I don’t want people to see, I am in a building full of people who can look at me. My work laptop is almost always closed at home as I plug into a dock and external monitor.

      I am way more concerned about my phone voice recording me. I have all those features turned off and am super cautious about things like google home, other smart speaker, or my car sending random people text or voice messages.

      Reply ↓
    13. Blue Pen*

      I use a laptop to connect with an HDMI cable to a large monitor (with no web cam). Since the camera’s on my laptop, I keep the laptop shut (hiding the camera) when I’m not on a video call.

      Reply ↓
      1. Quinalla*

        This! Also, once I’m disconnected from VPN (I work from home) my company has no way to get to my camera so no need to cover it outside of work hours.

        Reply ↓
    15. Harrowhark*

      Your comment and jvf1’s question about “brain break” websites have made me think a little more carefully about my privacy practices at work. I’ve added a webcam cover to my work laptop just to be safe, but I visit and log into a lot of non-work websites on the same device — even though it’s probably more likely that someone would look at my internet history than spy on me through my webcam. Now I’m curious why my brain considers one kind of surveillance more threatening than the other.

      Reply ↓
    16. Bitte Meddler*

      My webcams are always covered / turned away.

      I keep the one on my laptop permanently covered because I have an external one that sits on top of my front monitor. I use the external one because the angle is more flattering for my face and body.

      When I’m not on a video call, I turn the camera toward my wall. If anyone uses it to spy on me, they’ll just see a pale, dove-grey, textured wall.

      At my last company, the external camera’s “in use” light would pop on randomly, so I taped a small note to my wall that said, “STOP SPYING ON ME,” and aimed the camera at it.

      Reply ↓
    17. RagingADHD*

      I cover mine if I’m going to be on a call and want to make sure my camera is definitely off (eating, messy home office, etc).

      We do a lot of ad-hoc calls on Teams, so it would be a huge pain to constantly forget to uncover it.

      Reply ↓
    18. Qwerty*

      Most people I know leave their camera uncovered, at least at the office. The only reason to cover it is if you think it will turn on when you don’t want it to so people fall into two categories

      1) Paranoid about accidentally joining a call with the camera on (I’m in this category – it stays covered at home but not at the office)

      2) Paranoid that someone will secretly access their camera and watch them. These people will generally also have covers on their phone cameras too

      Reply ↓
  20. Cabbagepants*

    I Just Can’t Take It Anymore with my job and company and so I’m taking a year off to spend more time with my young child and regroup professionally. After that year, I may (probably will) want to come back to the same industry but a different company and role.

    There is currently an opening that seems to check the boxes, and I was recommended for the position by a former colleague from CurrentJob. I just had a coffee with FormerColleague and the role does sound pretty decent. I wonder if/how I can leverage this opening to have my foot in the door in a year when I am ready to come back to work. Should I…

    1) have a chat with the hiring manager but explain I won’t be working for a year and to please keep me in mind?

    2) send in my resume and use the interview as an informational interview and bow out at the end?

    3) get to the offer stage and then bow out?

    I would take the job now for the right conditions but those conditions (enough flexibility that I don’t need to arrange for child care 3 days/week) don’t seem likely.

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      Don’t interview for the job at all unless you think you could negotiate it to be truly part-time.

      If you want to be home 3 days/week with your child, those are days most employers won’t want you to be ‘on the clock’. You might be able to do freelance projects, but it’s unlikely you’ll be able to get a full-time job with that restriction. Definitely don’t treat it like an informational interview – that’s not what an informational interview is anyways. Absolutely don’t bow out after going part-way through the interview process, that will do nothing good for your future candidacy.

      End your current job, enjoy your time at home recharging with your child, and start looking again in 8 months.

      Reply ↓
    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Do not do any “bowing out”. If you’re confident you will take a year off, then going through an entire process and springing this on the hiring manager is really unfair. Most companies can wait a few months to fill an open position. Very few will wait an entire year.

      If you like the company, you can ask your former colleague for an intro to your boss and then invite the boss out for an informational coffee (if boss is available and willing). Of course, your colleague can help here and tell the boss that they think you would be great for the role but you’re planning to take a year off, so the timing isn’t good, but you’d be appreciative if you could meet informally anyway. Approach this as an opportunity to network. If the role is still available after a year and you want to apply, great. But don’t approach this expecting anyone to wait for you.

      Reply ↓
    3. Cordelia*

      I don’t think any of your options are realistic, unfortunately. 1/ they won’t hold this job for a year, and a hiring manager who doesn’t know you isn’t going to be keeping you in mind for later opportunities.
      2/ and 3/ would waste the company’s time and mean you leaving a negative impression that would count against you for future applications (turning down offers doesn’t always count against you, of course, but in this case it would be clear that you’d had no intention of taking the post and were interviewing in bad faith)
      I’d probably just keep in touch with Former Colleague and let them know the timing isn’t right for this one, but to please keep you in mind if something else comes up later on.

      Reply ↓
    4. HonorBox*

      I’d lean toward option 1 with an addition (which I’ll explain). Bowing out at any point might not exclude you from future consideration, but it might at least give them pause when you submit a resume in the future.

      Talk to the hiring manager. Explain that you’re interested in the role and would love to do it under certain conditions. But let them know you’d be very interested in that role or something similar in a year or so and would love to stay in touch. At the far end of worst case scenario, they never let you know about something. Slightly better, they like you and let you know of something 9 or 10 months from now. Even better, they do have some flexibility that would allow you to feel comfortable proceeding with the interview process.

      Reply ↓
  21. HomebodyHouseplant*

    I just accepted a remote position with my firm to start in January! I worked remotely in 2020 and 2021, and have been back in the office (new job) since. I’m so excited to go back to working from home, I feel so much more effective and not having to commute anymore will be a dream. Anyone got any tips or essentials I should pick up? Definitely grabbing a new chair, walking pad, and desk. I have a dedicated home office but it’s mostly “play” space these days and I want to have a work area separate from my fun stuff.

    Reply ↓
    1. WheresMyPen*

      Does your company have a budget to provide you with a desk, chair, laptop stand etc? Ours does as part of the healthy working setup to try to avoid back, wrist problems etc. other than that I can’t think of anything, besides things you’d likely have anyway like blinds for the window, a fan, blanket for when it’s cold, plants and photos, trinkets etc to make it cosy :)

      Reply ↓
    2. AcadLibrarian*

      Pinterest. I know it can have overwhelming results, but just going through a page or 2 of them can give you some great ideas.

      Reply ↓
    3. Harrowhark*

      If your workspace is in a multipurpose area of your home, try using sensory cues to signal that it’s Work Time — a candle or diffuser you only use while working, a desk lamp that changes the vibe of the space, a white noise machine or designated playlist, etc.

      Also, this is probably kind of obvious, but keep the dimensions of your desk/space in mind when purchasing supplies. I bought a desk calendar to use on my WFH days, and it would have worked great on my office desk but didn’t fit on my home desk, lol.

      Reply ↓
    4. Griffin*

      I enjoy having some sort of fidget object on my desk! For me, it’s a round paperweight that i can use to keep my hands busy while i’m concentrating in meetings! I’d also recommend picking out some desk decor that just makes you happy when you look at it. I have a picture of my sister, a wooden carving from a vacation, a funky lamp etc. to make the space cozy and inviting. Have a way to play background music too! I really love my “harry potter soundrack” playlist on spotify. I also plan out what i will snack or sip on throughout the day as a reward. In between meetings i’ll run to my kitchen and grab a Poppi or a bowl of goldfish. gives me a nice break from my desk, but something to bring back.

      Reply ↓
  22. CherryBlossom*

    This is a very low-stakes question: If I have a 1:1 meeting with someone senior to me, should I head to the meeting room ahead of time, or wait to be “collected”?

    I’ve been mainly been a receptionist/office manager before my current role, so I’m used to not leaving my desk unless instructed to. Also autism. So, am I overthinking this, or is there an agreed-up way to handle this that I’m not familiar with?

    Reply ↓
    1. UnCivilServant*

      You’re overthinking this.

      In most cases, the senior person will expect you to show up at the meeting location of your own accord rather than going to collect you.

      Reply ↓
    2. Sarashina*

      I’m equally not sure it’s the agreed-upon way, but heading to the meeting room ahead of time is both the way I usually do things and the way I see it done with people in my department. (Personally I like to be an extra few minutes early so I can take some time to gather my thoughts!)

      Reply ↓
    3. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      If you’re not in a receptionist role, I would definitely go to the meeting room myself. Being collected isn’t the norm for most meetings.

      Reply ↓
    4. Insert Clever Name Here*

      I always head to a meeting room a few minutes early so that I have a chance to get settled before the meeting actually starts. We have a very small number of meeting rooms in my building so it’s also normal to stand near the meeting room door (not looking in) for 5 or so minutes while you wait for the previous meeting to end. The only time anyone has collected me from my desk was when I completely forgot about a meeting and my coworker came to see if I was there (this was before Teams)!

      Assuming you know which meeting room you’ll be in, here’s another way to frame this: if the time and place of the meeting has been provided, you have been instructed to be in that place at that time.

      Reply ↓
    5. ThursdaysGeek*

      I would head to the location so that I’m there about a minute before the meeting should start. If they wanted to collect you, that gives them time, but, at least for me, getting to meetings is done individually.

      Reply ↓
    6. Cordelia*

      go to the meeting room to be there ready at the meeting start time. If it helps, you have been instructed to leave your desk, because you have been told to be at this meeting in this room at this time. Going to collect someone for a meeting would be very unusual and not expected anywhere I’ve ever worked.

      Reply ↓
    7. LadyByTheLake*

      Also, receptionist is one of the very few jobs where you are expected to be at your desk at all times. For most other jobs, you can come and go from your desk as you please.

      Reply ↓
    8. allathian*

      I definitely don’t wait to be collected. I also figure that my boss is busier than I am, so if one of us has to wait for a minute, I don’t want it to be her.

      Granted, we’re mostly remote now so it’s less of an issue. My manager usually logs on first and I follow as soon as I see the “Meeting started by” banner.

      Reply ↓
    9. HonorBox*

      I would head to the meeting room a few minutes ahead of time – like 8:55 for a 9:00. Don’t be too early, but also don’t rush in right at the confirmed time. Generally they’re not going to come collect you, unless that’s somewhat specified… like, “I’m going to be finishing up a call and will stop by your desk when I’m through so you’re not wasting your time waiting on me.”

      Reply ↓
  23. Former Retail Lifer*

    My company lost a huge contract and many of us will be out of work as a result. There are a few options to transfer to another local location, but not enough for all of us (TBD who will be offered a transfer). My company has a policy that if you refuse a “reasonable” transfer, they will consider it a resignation. I take public transportation, and the only potential transfer options are a 30 minute drive away with no transit there. Uber is cost-prohibitive that far. There are no options for carpooling. Do you think I have any claim to this being “unreasonable” due to the fact that I take public transportation? Buying a car and having to pay insurance and gas money would be entirely too expensive and negotiating for a higher salary is not an option. I just need to find a way to ensure my unemployment claim won’t be denied.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alex*

      Fortunately, it isn’t your employer who ultimately decides whether or not you get unemployment, it is the unemployment office, and yes I think “moving to a location I can’t access” is reasonable, but it will be the unemployment office who has final say.

      Reply ↓
    3. Rex Libris*

      Not a lawyer, but I doubt it. I don’t think your method of transportation to work is generally considered your employers’ problem.

      What’s reasonable in the workplace is usually based on a common consensus, not what’s reasonable for everyone’s individual circumstances. A 30 minute commute is going to be reasonable for the average person.

      Reply ↓
      1. retirednow*

        But it’s not a 30 minute commute. It’s a 30 minute commute if you own a car. And there’s a lot of stuff lately about requiring someone to have a car for a job – if it’s not a requirement because you do fieldwork or whatever it’s seen as undo hardship in many cases.

        Reply ↓
    4. Tuesday Tacos*

      Apply for your unemployment anyway, I think a place where there is no public transport access is not reasonable- for you. I also don’t think that a company laying off a bunch of people will be paying too much attention to who files for unemployment. If they do “protest” it you can explain your transportation issue.

      Reply ↓
      1. Rex Libris*

        This is true. There’s definitely no point in not applying. If it goes through great, and if it doesn’t you’re not any worse off than you would have been if you don’t apply.

        Reply ↓
  24. Winners know when to quit*

    I’m requesting some good juju today. I recently joined a great org, and the other person who started with me decided it wasn’t for them and they left. I have a friend who would be great to fill that open seat, so I’m requesting some juju for this person so I can get to work with them again.

    Reply ↓
  25. Not a Girl Boss*

    I’m a super awkward bad-news-giver. I always end up with a huge smile planted on my face, which I cannot for the life of me remove and comes across as… weird? Its true in other aspects of my life, like nervously laughing if I see someone get hurt.

    I recently had to tell an internal candidate he wasn’t selected for a role, and couldn’t stop smiling. He is now avoiding me and generally taking it very hard. Of course, one of the reasons he wasn’t selected is because he has a negative attitude and threw his coworkers under the bus in the interview (for a job where teamwork/relationships and empathy is very important). But I’m wondering if I should try to do some kind of damage control? Should I apologize to him for smiling? Should I explain in more detail why he wasn’t selected, even though that might be hard for him to hear?
    Normally I would think its fair and normal for someone to nurse their feelings after being rejected, but I’m kind of horrified that my face might have made it worse for him.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      I’d leave it be, at least as far as he’s concerned. Odds are he’d be reacting this way even if your facial expression had matched the news, and trying to make him talk it out in more detail isn’t going to help. If he applies again or asks for feedback, that would be the time to explain that you really need to see him work on his soft skills if he wants to be competitive.

      You probably should put in some mirror time or do some breathing exercises to practice how to keep a straight face for future meetings of this nature, though.

      Reply ↓
      1. HonorBox*

        Agreed. I don’t think he needs an explanation about the facial expression. But I think that you need to figure out a way to work on the smile.

        I don’t say that as a finger pointing thing… I make jokes when I’m uncomfortable and have had to really work on biting my tongue.

        Reply ↓
    2. WorkerDrone*

      I wouldn’t do any damage control for this situation, but I think that if giving bad news is a semi-regular part of your job you need to find some kind of solution to this.

      Personally, this would come across as callous/rude/mean to me. If the person telling me I didn’t get a position was smiling, especially a big smile, there’s just no possible way for it not to be hurtful. And, to be honest, I’d probably assume it was a nervous smile! I’d probably realize that it wasn’t a malicious “gosh I’m so glad to give bad news” thing (or, at least I hope I’d realize that).

      Even so, it would still be a twist of the knife when hearing I didn’t get a position. Emotions would be running a bit high and seeing a huge smile on the face of the person rejecting me isn’t something I’d really be able to process logically/rationally. It would, without a doubt, make me feel much worse.

      Reply ↓
    3. Still*

      In the future, I would just be very direct about it and acknowledge it as soon as possible after giving the key information.

      “We’ve decided to go with another candidate. I know this is bad news and I apologise for smiling – it’s just a nervous reaction that I can’t control, but please know that I am taking it seriously.”

      And then continue with whatever your usual script would be.

      Reply ↓
  26. Reduced salaries*

    Job seekers, are you also seeing drastically reduced salaries right now?

    I’m a lead individual contributor (team supervisory work without an actual manager title) trying to level up. The salary ranges I’m seeing for manager roles are topping out at about the salary I made as a senior IC (one or two steps down from where I am now, depending on org structure).

    Reply ↓
    1. Pillow Castle*

      I recently switched jobs. My new title is technically higher, but with similar duties as my previous job and roughly same salary. When I was casually looking a year earlier, salaries were on average higher than I was getting paid, but when I started seriously looking, they were on average lower.

      Reply ↓
  27. Sandwiches*

    I had two interviews for a new job but won’t hear back from them for a couple more weeks… and ngl I’m feeling a little sad about potentially leaving the company I work for. Pay increases and opportunities aren’t good here but I love some of the people, and the perks and special projects can be fun. I feel kinda sad about leaving if I get the job, but I’ll feel sad about missed opportunities if I don’t get it.

    Reply ↓
    1. WheresMyPen*

      I understand this! I feel ready for a new challenge and different types of work to what I can do at my current job, but I love what we do and my team do every time I look at job listings I feel sad at the idea of leaving. I think you’ll know when the time comes if it feels right to leave, and bear in mind if your job is great you’ll always feel that pull to stay, but unless you want to stay til retirement eventually you’ll have to make the decision to go. And you might end up somewhere equally as good or better!

      Reply ↓
    2. Security Princess*

      I just resigned and I’m feeling sad about it too. I’m really going to miss the people and I feel bad for the person who thought I was going to be mentoring them for a long time ahead – I haven’t broken that news to them yet. But I’m really excited for the new opportunity too! And anxious about being new after a long time at my current job. There’s a lot of feelings happening at the moment. I’m proud of myself for taking the plunge, though.

      Reply ↓
  28. Sarashina*

    A member of my team is getting fired in the very near future for sexual misconduct, and I need to be the one to deliver the message. I’ll have a script, and this firing is about as clear-cut as you get, but I am horrifically conflict-averse and this is the first time I’ve had to do anything like this. Any tips to stay calm?

    Reply ↓
    1. N C Kiddle*

      Practise the script as many times as you can. That ought to help with delivering it calmly and also if things get out of hand it’ll be uppermost in your mind to fall back on. I hope it goes smoothly for you.

      Reply ↓
      1. pally*

        This!

        And know how you want this meeting to unfold i.e. an agenda (for yourself-not something written out for all who will attend). Knowing what you want to do and how you want to end the meeting can help with nerves.

        See, once you deliver “the news” -then what? What do you want to have happen? Will you ask if they have any questions? Or will you walk them to the door? Do you just end the meeting? If so, then what? Will you have security waiting to take them to clear out their desk (or escort them out of the building)? Will you hand this person over to an HR person? Will HR be present at this meeting? Have all this nailed down before you start the meeting.

        If there are other attendees present: Decide with them how the meeting will proceed.

        And for the beginning of the meeting, what’s the plan? Do you engage in some small talk and then drop “the news”? Or ask them to sit down, and then drop “the news”? Decide how you will handle this as well. Personally, I would refrain from any small talk.

        Will you be handing them any documentation as part of this? When? Before or after you deliver “the news”? If there’s any signing needed, have implements ready for that.

        Good luck!

        Reply ↓
      2. Hlao-roo*

        Seconding the recommendation to practice!

        I like to do escalating levels of practice that look a little like this:
        1 – practice saying the script out loud in a room by myself
        2 – practice saying the script out loud while looking in a mirror (to catch if my face starts doing anything weird while I’m talking)
        3 – practice saying the script to a trusted partner/family member/friend
        4 – practice trusted partner/family member/friend reacting to the script (see HannahS’s comment below) and you responding to that reaction

        All of these are optional, and they aren’t all necessary for every conversation. (I usually just do 1 & 2 for things like a job interview, for example, but would probably want to add in at least step 3 for this conversation.)

        Reply ↓
    2. HannahS*

      Hello, I sometimes have distressing and heated conversations at work. It’s hard, and the first time it’s usually pretty horrible. So it’s good to expect/accept that. Practice, a lot. Also, have some responses ready–like, you can make some guesses at what they might say and have your responses practiced. The goal is to basically not engage with what they say and return to your script. Examples off the top of my head.

      Team Member: (denies the facts, e.g. “I didn’t do it/so-and-so misunderstood/other coworker did the same thing/I’m being targeted because of [reason.]”)
      Sarashina: “Team member, I’m not here to re-open an investigation on what happened. What I’m telling you now is that you’re being terminated.” (return to the script) “IT is going to take your laptop today at 4:00; please have your desk cleared by then…”

      Team Member: (tries to draw you in personally, e.g.) “I can’t believe you would do this to me/I thought we were friends/This is so unfair”
      Sarashina: “Like I said, I’m not here to reopen any discussion on what happened. I’m here to explain what will be happening now that your employment is terminated.”

      My back-pocket script for getting out of conversations that are getting heated is this:
      “Team Member, we seem to be talking in circles. I have some information that I need to share with you, but I can’t do that if you’re interrupting me. Can you please hear me out?” If they say yes and let you finish, great. If not, I say, “This is no longer a productive conversation, and I’m going to end it.” And then either leave, or call security to escort them out.

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    3. Name (Required)*

      Practice, practice, practice your script and keeping your voice neutral and non-emotional. And don’t be afraid of silence. If you need to take a minute to regroup, just let the room be silent for that time. And, have a witness there just in case things don’t go well. Sending best wishes.

      Reply ↓
    4. A large cage of birds*

      I’m sorry you’re in this positions, that sounds rough.

      I agree with the others that preparation is key. I don’t now if this is happening in person, but I recommend having someone else in the room as well. (Like HR, if you’re not HR) It may discourage some bad behavior from the person being fired.

      Reply ↓
      1. retirednow*

        Agree with having someone else in the room. My former company did that for any person who was being fired no matter what the reason.

        Reply ↓
    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Are you expected to deliver this news yourself and alone? If so, that sounds really strange to me. HR should be in the room with you. If you are HR, then a colleague should be in the room with you. If that has not been offered to you as an option, I urge you to talk to someone in HR. This is delicate stuff. I’ve never known anyone to be fired without HR present.

      Reply ↓
      1. Sarashina*

        Oh don’t worry, HR will be in the room! All the guardrails I need will be in place for me, and HR will step in to deliver the logistics after I deliver the bad news. I’m mostly just worried about my own ability to stay calm and firm as I’m walking through the script, especially if things get heated. (Also everyone, your advice is fantastic – thank you so much!)

        Reply ↓
        1. HonorBox*

          Practice. Practice. Practice. Both out loud and in front of a mirror/trusted friend AND while you’re driving, taking a walk, doing the dishes, etc.

          Don’t think too much about all the ways they might react and how things might get heated. In my experience, having had many potentially heated conversations in my head before they happen, you’ll spend more time focused on that than your actual script. Instead focus on ways you know you can help yourself stay calm should you need to.

          This isn’t about someone not quite meeting expectations, or not meeting all points in a PIP. This is someone who did something wrong. Be matter of fact. Less is more. Then let HR step in to do their part.

          Reply ↓
    6. Yes And*

      I’ve had to do exactly this. The firing was well-deserved (even way overdue), and the misconduct was well documented, and the perpetrator had had plenty of warnings. But having to actually do it still sucked.

      In addition to everyone’s advice about preparation, and seconding the advice to have someone else in the room, I would add: when you prepare your script, stick to the termination action that is being taken, and next steps for the employee’s separation from the company. You do not need to relitigate the employee’s actions that led to this point. They do not get a chance to argue and defend themselves – they presumably had that (if proper investigation procedures were followed), and it’s done. Focus on what is happening now and what is happening next.

      Reply ↓
      1. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

        ^^ this. I’ve always written out a script and had it approved by HR in advance, and insisted that HR be in the room with me as well. Say the thing directly and calmly, talk about logistics, don’t let the conversation get derailed.

        also – consider scheduling yourself either a very easy day before/after, or even taking PTO for the rest of the day. These conversations are draining even when you are 100% in the right, and it’s unlikely you’ll be able to focus on other high-stress projects while you’re still processing this conversation.

        Reply ↓
    7. spcepickle*

      All of this with the practicing. Firing people is hands down the worst part of my job and it does not really get easier. BUT it will make your team way better, firing someone for something like sexual misconduct sends a very clear message that you have your team’s back and will take care of them.

      I write the person a letter. This helps me get my thoughts all organized, I can glance at it in the meeting if I need, and I can hand them the letter at the end of the meeting so if I forgot anything they have it written down. I have the letter okayed by HR.
      Also have someone else in the room with you, I find one other person (once for some reason there were three of us and the person to be fired – it was too many) helps with my nerves and gives me a little protection if the person being fired either loses it or decided to lie about what I said (the letter helps with this as well). Make sure you have info about their benefits ending and thinks like vacation time buy out. I don’t add that info verbally, but we also have a standard letter that goes into details and provides an HR contact for more questions. And sometimes that person thinks to ask questions, so I like to be able to answer them.

      Reply ↓
    8. NaoNao*

      You’re not doing anything wrong (or immoral) by firing them. Focus on delivering the news in a compassionate way and focus on the logistics (like ensuring they have access to their benefits and paystubs, etc.) but make sure the message is “this isn’t up for deabte, your time here has come to an end”, it’s honestly the kind thing to do to be 100% clear.

      Reply ↓
    9. Rex Libris*

      In addition to practicing until you’re comfortable with what you’re going to say, watch your breathing. Some studies have shown that just as your breathing naturally gets faster when you get more anxious, intentionally slowing it to calm, regular breaths will actually tone down the anxiety. Your brain basically goes “Oh, I’m breathing normally, so everything must be okay.”

      Reply ↓
    10. My Day (they/them)*

      Plan for disruption as well as practicing the script. You say HR will be in the room- awesome. Can you ask them what they’d like you to do if this person starts trying to argue or otherwise escalates or interrupts? I know I get super thrown off if I have a script for an interaction and I get asked an unexpected question, so for it to go smoothly, I’d expect something like that just in case.

      Reply ↓
    11. Anxious autistic dude*

      Practice practice practice. Since you said HR will be there, I think practicing with one of the HR staff might be helpful, as they are trained for this.

      And also, I suggest planning to do something nice for yourself immediately after to help you settle down. I had to do this with an intern a number of years ago and it was not fun. I then tried to go straight back to work…wasn’t the best idea.

      Sending good vibes. You got this!

      Reply ↓
    12. My Brain is Exploding*

      If you fear that the person you are going to fire may get out of control, there is actually a good chapter about this in “The Gift of Fear.”

      Reply ↓
  29. Oreo*

    Tl;dr – My coworker is upset that someone junior to her is getting a “promotion”, is upset that I was not chosen for the promotion instead, and is wondering if sexism is in play. I need a gut check because she may be right, but I want to approach this objectively.

    I work in a small but mighty team of myself (F 30’s) and two others, L (M 40’s) and P (F 30’s) in the Teapot QA department. I am the most senior at 7 years, P has been here for 4 years, L is our newest hire at 1.5 years. While we all work under the same department, we all have different skills that balance each other out – otherwise we all are the same rank, and for the most part, we get along and get work done. The workload is unsustainable though, and I’ve been begging my Boss and Grandboss to hire more people, but they think we’re doing fine as-is. So we manage the workload the best we can.

    A few days ago, L was promoted to be a Teapot QA Lead – a brand new position. Boss and Grandboss did not really define what L’s new role would be, but wanted to implement this in order to foster collaboration between us and other departments, while also reducing errors. P left the meeting without a word, while L and I were a little confused and tried to discuss what exactly will change with his promotion. The conclusion was, well, not much will change. I asked L if they were giving him additional compensation for the new role and he said no, that Boss and Grandboss approached him with the idea, and he just accepted it.

    I reached out to P afterwards and she told me that she thinks this is a disaster, that L will let the authority get to his head and will do the opposite of increasing collaboration, that the only reason management picked him was because he’s an outgoing, charismatic man. Since day 1 of his hire, L has tried to implement new strategies, processes, and jumped straight into projects while ignoring our current processes because he thinks his way is better. Both myself and my bosses had to tell him to back off many times, and to be more open minded about our current workflow. P also confided in me that L would try to delegate jobs to her, get angry with her when she tried to get additional clarification, and then claim credit for her work. She has talked to Boss and Grandboss about it, but they brush her off too. P has been spiraling since she heard the news, and I’m at a loss on what to do. From what I understood from the meeting, not much would change. But I do also empathize with P’s anxiety of L having more authority – as ill-defined as it is.

    On top of this, several people have come to me privately asking why I didn’t get picked to be the lead. My answer has been “No one asked me, although I would have accepted if it was offered. L has better skills in XZY vs. my skills of ABC, that was the bosses rationale for picking him.” There has not been official announcement of L’s potation yet, so I know this question will be brought up a bunch more. What can I do to give them a satisfactory enough answer?

    Reply ↓
    1. stripey giraffe*

      Sounds like Boss + Grandboss are either sexist, or easily swayed by L’s charisma and attempt to change processes. The latter is often seen as imaginative and does lead to promotions, even if the ideas are off. I’m sorry.

      Reply ↓
      1. Oreo*

        I’m thinking it’s the latter, that L is very persuasive and does more “visible” projects and that impresses management. Even though Boss and Grandboss sing my praises too – calling me one of the best hires they ever had, acknowledging my hard work on one particular weekly project that brings in a good chunk of profits – it may not be enough.

        Reply ↓
        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          It can be both! He can have an advantage because he is charismatic, and because he is a dude. Neither of those speak well of your management.

          You got passed over, your job is not going to get better (your bosses have told you so specifically), and I know it’s a crappy job market but you should job hunt.

          Reply ↓
    2. MsM*

      “You’d have to ask the boss(es) his/their reasoning, but I respect the decision and look forward to working with L.” It’s not your job to explain the thinking here to anyone, even if you had all the answers, which you don’t. If your colleagues agree with P that management has no idea what they’re doing and this is going to be a disaster, then they can make decisions about how they want to deal with that accordingly.

      Reply ↓
      1. Oreo*

        From what I’ve heard, many do side with P. I do like your script because it conveys that I do indeed respect the decision, as long as L does not continue to “bulldoze” his way through necessarily.

        Reply ↓
    3. Busy Middle Manager*

      A case study in how not to do promotions. L likes to change things but you don’t seem like much change is needed, but apparently it is since inter-departmental communication is bad? And why aren’t departments working well together, could that have been fixed without randomly promoting someone? If you’re promoting the newest person, shouldn’t that give you pause, and make you think about the longer-term coworkers’ potentially careers?

      To answer your question at the end, I’d downplay that this was a promotion. “We wanted to make it clear who to address when dealing with cross-departmental issues.” I’d also add a messy/inconvenient project to L’s plate to make the position seem less desirable, to make it clear to people it’s actually work and not an award

      Reply ↓
      1. Oreo*

        Well said. And thank you for the script!

        I wish there was a reliable way to assign L a less desirable project, but the way our work comes in is very unpredictable.

        Reply ↓
    4. Not a Girl Boss*

      I am in the middle of creating a very similar QA Lead role in my department, and it will go to the most junior member of the team (both of us are female if that matters).

      Big differences: 1) this junior member has expressed a specific interest in growing into a management position, and this is part of her development plan 2) no one else more senior or qualified than her wants the job – maybe they’d want the pay? but none of them actually want to be managers. 3) she exhibits good leadership behavior and doesn’t have to be actively coached on following processes 4) the role has well defined responsibilities 5) pay will be increased with responsibility.

      The team muddles through fine as a team and my limited oversight, so its not like we absolutely needed a lead role. But it will be nice to have some of the day-to-day off my plate, and it also creates a growth opportunity for me to be mentoring a quasi-supervisor. Mostly, its about creating a stepping stone for this person’s career advancement because, why not?

      One thing I always think about when it comes to sexism is whether there is a deliberate action by a manager, or just an ingrained pattern difference between men and women, and a manager that doesn’t seek to balance the scales. For example, in my experience as a manager, men are much more likely to advocate for what they want. I’ve seen a woman who really wants a promotion but never says that out loud to me, while her male coworker advocates in every one-on-one for growth opportunities and brings examples of positive performance. As a slightly more enlightened manager, I try to encourage my female employee to advocate for herself, create development plans, and brag to me once in a while. But I’ve seen it go the other way – with a boss who just got an ear worm about how some dude wanted something, and gave it to him without considering that maybe someone else wanted it too. I also think its possible that a conventionally charismatic man would be seen as a ‘natural leader’ since men are often promoted on potential alone. Either way, this promotion sounds like a poorly planned disaster… just potentially not a sexist one.

      Reply ↓
      1. Oreo*

        If Boss and Grandboss had approached me at all, either to ask for my thoughts on accepting a lead role, or whether L or P would be a good fit for the role, that would be a different story. Instead they just… decided on their own that L would be the best pick. Perhaps L did actively express his desire to move up, but from my conversation with him, that was not the case.

        There was also one instance many years ago, before L was hired and we were looking to fill in that position, a coworker (Female, 40’s) expressed interest in transferring to the Teapot QA department, citing that she had skills in ABC, but not XYZ. Instead they transferred a younger, male coworker who had… no skills at all, but he was very intelligent and very driven to learn. He did fine for about a year before transferring again back to the old department in a managerial role. Is it a pattern of sexism? I don’t think I have enough info to make that call – but it does nag at me a little.

        Reply ↓
        1. In My Underdark Era*

          it sounds to me like maybe you’re uncomfortable labelling it sexism because that’s a Big Bad Thing that you could potentially be wrong about, and a lot of people act like making a “false allegation” of sexism is worse than, well, sexism, so it could have negative consequences for you if you label the pattern as sexist.

          If my guess sounds accurate, you might try using the most factual language you can muster: there is a pattern of management choosing to advance less experienced men instead of more experienced women, even when they say they want the role. you don’t have to say more than that, because to an outsider the optics are pretty bad just with that framing.

          Reply ↓
          1. Oreo*

            You’ve hit the nail on the head. Perhaps I could bring it up to Boss and Grandboss as an optics thing. No clue how receptive they would be to that kind of feedback though. This is a very male dominated industry, at least in the particular department I’m in.

            Reply ↓
    5. Strive to Excel*

      Are the bosses who have been telling L to back off the same ones as your Boss and Grandboss?

      I see a couple possible options here.

      1. Boss & Grandboss have been swayed by L’s efforts to introduce shiny new ideas, and haven’t considered whether or not those ideas are a) good ideas or b) practical for your group.

      2. Boss & Grandboss think L is a bad fit for his current job and would do better in a more communication/collaboration job.

      3. Something in the department actually needs to change, and they feel like L is new enough and charismatic enough to get the change through despite it being Not Fun.

      I’d lean on 1 being the most likely, since both you and P have found that he jumps in to projects and you are both anxious about him having more authority. It’s hard to say sexism with a sample size of 3 people. Is it possible? Yes. It could also just be that he’s the loud charismatic one, and the same would happen if L were a loud charismatic woman. However, just because something isn’t sexist doesn’t mean it’s a good idea or a good management decision. Something being legal doesn’t mean it’s a good or kind idea.

      Reply ↓
      1. Oreo*

        Yes, Boss and Grandboss have told L to back off. They are aware of his shortcomings, and in fact P and I just had a private meeting with just B and GB to drive that point home. Not that we expected them to change their mind – but more to make our concerns heard. P interpreted their responses as avoidant and making excuses for L, which I more or less agree with.

        I expect it’s mostly 1, maybe a sprinkling of 2. I have received some complaints about L being hard to reach (doesn’t check emails or Teams messages enough), and because of that, deadlines are not being met. Another thing both P and I have brought up to B and GB.

        Reply ↓
    6. WellRed*

      Do you like your job because sexism or not, I think you’ve been permanently pigeonholed in this company. I’m getting shades if “you’re so awesome we can’t possibly promote you.” You also sound too willing to just accept things as they come (very valid life choice!) but it won’t get you noticed or promoted if that’s what you want. As for P, her emotions are hers to manage. Also, “small but mighty” always makes me cringe a bit. It’s basically a euphemism for too much workload and management don’t care.

      Reply ↓
      1. Oreo*

        To be honest, I want out of the industry in general. I am quietly training in an adjacent field in my free time (which will take a few more months to complete), and then I plan on job searching. I’ve only stuck around with this company for as long as I have, because other places I’ve worked at were so, so much more toxic.

        The whole issue Boss and Grandboss want to solve is essentially a workload issue – we need more QA people! I’ve been telling them this for years. I would go out an do more “visible” projects L does, but if I do that, many other things will fall through the cracks. Perhaps I should just let that happen.

        Reply ↓
        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          You can’t care more about the success of your organization than your employer does.

          If they’re not setting things up for success, you let them fail.

          Reply ↓
    7. Qwerty*

      If you did not jump to that conclusion on your own, don’t follow P just because she is pushing you to come along. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t, but I’ve learned not to join people in their spiral.

      Are the years you listed the number of years at the company or number of years of experience? If you all are experienced QA testers and just L has been at THIS company less time, that does not make him more junior to you, especially because you all have the same rank.

      It sounds like L has been setting himself up for a leadership position for a while – this wasn’t an approach out of the blue. Suggesting new process improvements and taking initiative are generally looked upon favorably regardless of if those improvements pan out. The reasoning is they see someone looking to improve the process with the current staffing levels. Taking credit for P’s work is a problem, but what Boss sees is L organizing the work of the group and probably heard a plan about how having a central task master would make the team more efficient. I bet L has been bringing up to Boss how he would like to grow, wants to take on more ownership, how his career plan involves being a lead, etc during his 1x1s with Boss. An important lesson I learned early in my career was that men tend to go after jobs that don’t exist before they have the qualifications and women tend to wait to be asked as a reward for their good work. This means when the opportunity arise, the men are already first on the boss’ mind.

      I’m sorry you didn’t get a chance at the role. Your current strategy of waiting it out and being objective is a good one. When the dust settles, start talking with Boss about your own career growth plan. If you come to trust L, talk with him too! Be ready to take that lead role if L gets promoted again!

      Reply ↓
    8. Nesprin*

      You can’t give anyone a satisfactory answer because it sure seems like the mediocre man is climbing up the ladder over all the competent women.

      The best you can do is give a lot of “I don’t know, you’d have to ask boss and grandboss”.

      Reply ↓
  30. Rocky*

    I’m feeling overlooked/undervalued/disrespected at work.

    My manager, Larry, often asks my coworker Mo about my work instead of me (we work with the same vendors, but our work doesn’t overlap). For example, I reached out to a vendor about a reoccurring issue (CC’ing Larry on the e-mail), and received an explanation and three potential solutions. After I told Larry which solution I thought was best, he asked me to arrange a meeting with everyone, including Mo. In the meeting, Larry asked for Mo’s opinion. Mo favored the worst option. I protested, but Larry decided we’d go with what Mo preferred. Mo is good at saying a lot of words without substance, so when Larry asks him about my work, he’ll vaguely ramble about not seeing any problems with the vendor lately or say the vendor has been causing a lot of problems, but the opposite is true. If I pipe in to correct Mo, I get ignored.

    I actually have two managers. The team I work on is split in half. For some reason, on paper, my manager is on the half of the team that isn’t relevant to my work and Larry manages the half of the team that is relevant to my work. If I ask Larry about taking PTO, he says to ask the other manager. If I ask the other manager, he says to ask Larry. If I e-mail both, I get no response. Mo and another coworker, Jack, both started a few months before me. I’ve learned that they both had meetings with Larry to set up goals when they first moved to the team last year, and they have goals meetings though out the year. Last year, I didn’t find out I was supposed to have goals until a few days before they were due. The only meeting I’ve had with my managers was for my annual evaluation last year (they only had positive things to say, but that feels meaningless now).

    Larry recently announced that Jack was being promoted to fill the position of someone who’s retiring, and Mo was promoted into Jack’s position. I think Mo’s old position would be a logical step up for me, but he said a recruiter is already working to fill it. I’m hurt that I wasn’t asked if I was interested and realize Jack and Mo were probably set up/supported to get promoted while I was making up goals alone.

    I don’t know what to do for my goals next year. What kind of goals are you supposed to have when you want to leave your team? If one goal was something like, “Check internal job postings every week to explore what kind of teams or roles I might be interested in” could that backfire somehow?

    And would it be horrible to be “sick” and work from home during the team’s holiday lunch? I hate going to that kind of thing, and don’t see any reason to force myself to go again this year.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      Yeah, don’t tell or even hint to anyone that you’re trying to escape, unless you know beyond a shadow of a doubt they’ll be supportive and can help facilitate a transfer or make connections for you. Set your goals based on what you need to do to get through the year if nothing changes, and feel free to opt out of anything you can afford to opt out of.

      Reply ↓
    3. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      The purpose of goals is to define what you will accomplish for the business – so I’d stay well clear of anything job-search-oriented. On some teams, with some managers, you could have that conversation about your professional trajectory and desire to transfer, but it sounds like your managers are disengaged from your work so it’s not likely to help you and could very well hurt you.

      Succeeding in roles with two managers is infamously difficult, and, while you’re looking to get out, I think you can be a lot more assertive about a lot of this stuff! Now you know goals are expected, so you can write them, send them to both managers and say “I’m going to run with this unless you send feedback by X time.” Then, send both managers a monthly update on progress toward each goal.

      Same thing with PTO requests – send them with an ‘I’m going to assume this is fine if I don’t hear from you by [date]’.

      If you are actually interested in Jack’s position, have you directly told the hiring manager or are you waiting for them to invite you to apply? (The latter isn’t unreasonable to hope for, but clearly isn’t going to happen. So talk to them about it explicitly and directly; the worst they can say is no. Don’t assume that because they’re recruiting, they wouldn’t also consider you for the role if you applied.)

      can you start putting meetings on your managers’ calendars to ensure you get time with them?

      None of that means you should stay in this job; you can’t fix the dual-management structure. But it might mean you get a lot more visibility on your work in the meantime, which could get you a better reference or have other less-tangible benefits.

      Reply ↓
    4. Tuesday Tacos*

      I have to ask, what is your gender? The other two are men? Could this be an old boy’s network at play here?

      Reply ↓
  31. Nicki Name*

    Internal job application etiquette!

    I’ve never applied for a transfer within the same company before, but there’s a job posting that seems like a good fit and a step up for me. If I move ahead with applying, obviously my boss is going to need to know at some point. I expect him to be annoyed but professional about it.

    At what point is it typical to let your boss know you’re applying internally? Before you even apply? Some time afterward?

    Reply ↓
    1. Squeeb*

      Do you have any opportunity to tell HR/the hiring manager that you’d like to keep this application confidential for the time being, until they determine you may advance to the interview stage?

      If not, I’d probably err on the side of telling your boss just before or just after you send in the application, “Hey, I wanted to let you know I decided to toss my hat in the ring for X position. I’m happy in my current position on your team, but this promotional opportunity was too good to pass up!”

      Alternatively, if your boss is someone who has sometimes been a mentor/sounding board, you could “ask” them what they think of this promotional opportunity — like, maybe they know the hiring manager or some other scuttlebutt about the other dept?

      Reply ↓
    2. Not a Girl Boss*

      Most places I’ve been a manager, you get automatically notified if one of your employees applies to an internal position. So its unfortunately, always better to share earlier on.

      Reply ↓
      1. Cookies for Breakfast*

        I posted some different questions on internal moves below, and wanted to say a big thank you for this. I had no idea application systems had manager notifications. In my case, it makes it even more important to find out who’s the right contact in HR before applying, because I definitely don’t want my manager to know I’m looking outside of our business area.

        Also, as a general point, it makes no sense to me that the usual advice for external job hunts (don’t alert your manager that you’re looking) doesn’t seem to apply to internal moves. I’m fairly sure that if my manager knew I’ve been looking outside our subject matter area, I wouldn’t last long in my current role if I didn’t get the job.

        Reply ↓
      2. Not a Girl Boss*

        Workday has it for sure, for some companies its been set to anytime someone applies, for others its just if the candidate is selected for an interview. But also, the “rule” for internal candidates from HR is that we are supposed to be reaching out to the current manager before we move to any kind of second round / panel interview. This has been true in 3 different companies I’ve worked.

        The standard HR lines go: why pass up on insight from a current manager if you don’t have to? And we are supposed to be acting for the good of the company, aka not stealing someone from another area if there’s a compelling reason not to. Also, managers are supposed to be active players in development of their people, so theoretically I should be a big advocate of my employees moving onto roles that are a better fit for them.
        I get that in reality, there are many managers who would take internal postings badly… but I would never count on HR to protect your privacy on this matter.

        Reply ↓
    3. colorguard*

      First, check if your company has a policy. My previous company required that you tell your manager before applying to an internal role, either at the location or at a different location. (each location was functionally a separate entity). Not telling before you applied would mean an automatic rejection.

      Reply ↓
      1. Keeley Jone, The Independent Woman*

        I’ve had this policy too. Current job requires me to notify my manager only if I’m offered an interview. I feel that’s a more fair policy, but most places do require you inform your manager before even applying.

        Reply ↓
    4. Rex Libris*

      I’d share right after you send in the application, personally. In most organizations they’re going to find out pretty quickly regardless.

      Reply ↓
    5. AnonAnon*

      You have to see if your company has a policy on this. My last company did, but you only had to tell your manager IF you got an interview. So you could apply to as many as you wanted without them knowing. But the hiring manager could also see what other jobs you applied for. So at my last company, if someone was applying to a ton of jobs, especially that weren’t related, it looked like a red flag that you didn’t know what you wanted and may leave shortly after being hired.

      Reply ↓
  32. Valerie Loves Me*

    Hi All – Anyone have any success stories on changing careers. I’m a 40+ year old woman, been working in the communications arena for the past 20 years and looking to make a move. I met with a career coach who gave me some homework assignments to establish what my next step might look like, but I’d like to hear from folks who may have been a similar situation (or really just an older professional who changed careers) and saw an improvement in their personal contentment. Thanks y’all!

    Reply ↓
    1. Name (Required)*

      It’s not exactly the same but I worked in HR for many years, and at age 50, was asked if I would accept a role in Environmental, Health and Safety at the same company. I didn’t have a background in it but I had the “soft skills” and rapport with the employees. I accepted and haven’t looked back. It took me more than 2 years to learn most of what I needed, and was a steep learning curve at first, but I am glad I accepted the opportunity.

      Reply ↓
    2. Hlao-roo*

      No personal experience, but this past post has lots of info on career changes:

      “let’s talk about mid-life career changes” from May 28, 2020

      I’ll post a link in a follow-up comment.

      Reply ↓
    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I met with a career coach several years ago to figure out a career shift. I was in my early 40s at the time. I wouldn’t necessarily I changed careers, but I definitely moved to a very different type of role. More of a 90-degree turn than a complete 180. My coach walked me through all of the things that made me happy and where I should focus my search. I was in an absolutely miserable job at the time. Unfortunately it took a little longer than either of us anticipated– we started working together in November 2019– but she guided me through the process when I found a job that I loved. It was a bit scary– totally different role! Totally different goals!– but the company was amazing and my boss turned out to be the best boss I have ever had. I got laid off two years later (the company was purchased) but I don’t regret taking that role and making that move. I still miss that job.

      If it helps, I moved from a back-office type of support role in media to a sales role in a media-adjacent company. I had never done sales before except for retail gigs. My current position is entirely away from media but combines sales support with the back-office stuff I used to do. I used the lessons from coaching to help when I was job-searching after my layoff.

      Reply ↓
    4. Bitte Meddler*

      I went back to school in my late 40’s to finally finish my Bachelor’s and get my Master’s, both in accounting.

      My school has an unofficial “minor” in internal audit, and that’s the path I chose. I got my first internship — ever, in my whole life — when I was 51. I’m now 58 and, thanks to all the experience I gained in my prior careers, am a Sr Manager.

      I am now kicking myself for not having done this decades ago. I freaking *love* internal audit. Right about the time I’m getting bored with learning everything possible about a single business process, that audit is over and I’m on to a completely different business process.

      I am also making a LOT more money now than I would have had I stayed on the same career path I was in when I decided to go back to school.

      Reply ↓
    5. WestSideStory*

      You mention you’ve been in communications – is that the content side (writing, doing media etc.)? If so, take a slant and look at what the sales side of it would be. For example, if it’s editing books, think about going into the selling of books. If it’s radio or TV, think about who in your area sells communications equipment, and look to see if there are sales jobs there. (Flush with election money many news organizations will be upgrading their gear). Or generally, were there vendors for goods or services you enjoyed working with? Might they be hiring?
      Having a background in a particular field as a customer/user will arguably give you insights as to how to sell goods and services to your former peers. And trust me, if you are on the content side, sales pays better and the deadlines are not so dire.
      Of course, if you’ve been on the sales side (ad selling or other agency work) see if you’ve got a niche you can be creative in. Every industry has a trade group and trade media, and there an be good networking there.

      Reply ↓
  33. Ellis Bell*

    What are your best tips for assessing whether a move is a good idea? My job is so interesting, has a great culture and keeps me challenged but I’m at the top of the pole for my speciality. I’ve stumbled across a job advertised which seems ideal for me in a unicorn sort of way, and I’m going to apply out of curiosity. It’s more money and a progression and seems like a bigger challenge in a way that can either be great or problematic. I worry about what’s really behind closed doors though. What would you ask? What would you do?

    Reply ↓
    1. Granny Weatherwax*

      I’ve been in your position before. One tip that I was given that really helped me: if you could draft up a job description for your ideal job, what would it be – and what are the parts that are missing from what you do now? Also, think about the parts of your work now that you really love and try to figure out what it is about those parts that make you love it…What about your current culture makes it a fit for you? Is it the team-based work, the casual interactions, the flexibility, the leadership style? When you think about career progression, what does that actually mean to you? What kind of challenges/new opportunities are you looking for that you can’t get in your current position? Is it managing a team, being in a position to drive decisions, is it more money, is it having a title? If you can quantify that, even in high level terms, for yourself, that will help you frame what you want to ask about in the interview.

      I’d also start doing some research about the companies where you’re finding these job listings…do you know people there you can talk to? What have you heard about them in terms of being employers/the culture? What’s being said on Glassdoor and other review sites? That might help you narrow down where you want to apply in the first place.

      At the end of the day, making a change will have risk to it. You’re in a position to be selective, so take the time to really think about what you’d want your next step to be. And also remember that it’s okay to go through an interview process and then decline based on what you learn.

      Reply ↓
    2. Ashley*

      The work culture to me is huge. Do people walk around with nerf guns? Is this butts in seats? Can you do hybrid and how hard is that? Are happy hours expected? If you have a doctors appointment can you flex your time or is it sick leave or vacation?

      Reply ↓
  34. almost but not quite*

    To Canadian retailers: how much of a hassle will the GST holiday be? Is it a real pain to program, or is it trivial?

    Reply ↓
  35. Anon for this one*

    My work has an oversight group that’s supposed to intervene when our processes aren’t benefiting our customers. Technically, they’re supposed to have access to our equipment and procedures that they can mirror and take action on their own. Where their access IS limited by agreement between us and them, they can send us requests to take emergency action. One such time is if my work has an open base on a customer account.

    I got a request on a case, where the base was open because of customer phone call that activated a computer program to research something. No physical person touched the case. The research was done, the case should have been closed; except this part IS done by humans and we’re behind on that because it doesn’t really affect the customers.

    So, I closed the base and told the oversight person they can do the rest of the request. Keep in mind, I’m not in contact with the customer and the oversight person is.

    Cue a whole email chain where they are claiming that they can’t do that. Me and the unit liaison with these people are like, quoting their manuals to them. My manager, her boss and some other person are saying I should do this.

    I know it sounds bad, not doing this thing, but the thing is that my manager outright lied and said that the Oversight person doesn’t have the tool to do this. It’s literally in their manual that if they don’t, they’re supposed to go to THEIR bosses and ask for the tool.

    In the end it’ll get done, but these Oversight People over promise and under deliver and expect us to make them look good.

    And my management doesn’t have my back in this, but that’s to be expected. I’m only a peon and the Oversight People are only 3 ranks above me…

    Reply ↓
    1. Anon for this one*

      Oh and to clarify, Oversight is supposed to verify if there is a process that broke down and they need to take action. In many cases, they jump right in and bypass the procedures that are in place to begin with.

      Reply ↓
  36. Tawsh*

    Anyone have tips for hacking through your job when you feel really unmotivated and just don’t want to work? I’m a high-performing, respected academic admin but in my current role there’s so much flexibility that I’m having trouble getting anything done. This past year I’ve just been kind of coasting, at least by my standards. Feedback from peers and boss is still good, but I feel like the tasks I do I do really slowly and I just don’t wanna and it doesn’t make a difference. TBH I wish I could retire, but I’m only 40, lol! Diagnosed with depression/anxiety/OCPD that’s under control right now. Don’t meet the criteria for ADHD but feel like I’m just burnt to a crisp and can barely bring myself to work and want better ways to motivate myself.

    Reply ↓
    1. Valerie Loves Me*

      For projects that I just can’t get into… Sometimes I just have to spin my wheels a little to get going. My projects usually involve writing words that mean something. So I have started by throwing a bunch of S#!t on a page and then working my way out of it to create something that makes sense and at least sounds good. For me, it’s the act of writing that sometimes helps me write well (even if it takes a while to get to that point).

      Reply ↓
      1. Keeley Jone, The Independent Woman*

        I do this too. And if I’m really stuck, I do sometimes give a few prompts to ChatGPT to get things rolling. For all the hype it can’t do my job for me, but it can help me out sometimes when I get stuck

        Reply ↓
    2. SAW*

      Totally feel you on this. Sometimes I create fake deadlines for myself on projects by committing to have something done by X date (when in reality there’s no hard deadline). Sometimes I’ll buddy up with a work friend and we’ll both commit to each other that we’ll do a certain task and let the other person know when we do it. Sometimes small things like that can build a little bit of momentum for the other stuff I need to work on.

      Reply ↓
    3. Ellis Bell*

      I would pinpoint what’s causing it. Would you say it’s the flexibility? If so, is there a way of changing it? Make your own rules and routines if not? My ADHD hates the kind of flexibility that can be described as “do whatever, whenever”.

      Reply ↓
    4. Butt in Seat*

      Hi, this is me also! (Just without the official diagnoses, and in a different support area of academia).

      If I have too much flexibility I get very little done – by my own standards – but my coworkers and my boss repeatedly tell me I’m great.

      I have to regularly change up my task management systems to keep myself motivated. Implement system, go gung-ho on crossing things off the list, slowly get demotivated, realize it’s happened, look for a new task management system… I bounce between putting my projects in our official “ticketing” system (which is used mostly for end-user requests, so it’s not required for my internal projects to be there but it’s perfectly fine), a paper notepad, various “inbox zero” implementations, etc.

      Reply ↓
    5. Admin of Sys*

      If the lack of interest / effort is about finding new things to do, I have no help and if anyone else knows that trick, please share!
      But for things that are already on my docket and just don’t have clear deadlines, I find it really helpful to set regular check ins. If I have to account for my time spent each week, even if only in an email, I’m a lot more likely to get things done.

      Reply ↓
    6. EMP*

      I feel like Allison’s post a few weeks ago about dealing with burn out by finding non work stuff to commit to may be interesting for you

      Reply ↓
    7. Blue Pen*

      This resonates a lot with me, so I hope you’re not alone. The nature of my work is pretty cyclical; sometimes there’s a trillion things to do, other times not much. The “not much” times are the hardest in that I have to force myself to buckle down and concentrate on other tasks and projects.

      One thing that really helps me is keeping a clean work area that is clearly designed for work and work only. Everything is neat and orderly, and I have the supplies I need at the ready. It doesn’t always work as well as I want it to, but at the very least, it puts me into a mindset that it’s work time.

      Another idea is to keep a notebook by your side to jot down any tools or systems you use that could be improved on in some way. Mention them to your manager to get their take, and if you get the greenlight, go for it. Get your brain out of a funk by trying something new.

      Reply ↓
  37. AI newbie*

    Suggestion for a script that a panel chair can use when a candidate is obviously using AI to formulate a reply during an interview?

    My workplace (a small charity) is considering our policy to AI use in recruitment – but in regards to candidates using it, not us.

    We were planning to say something in the applicant pack like – ‘Please do not use AI throughout the recruitment process. We want to hear from you in your own words. Please note that use of any software or tools to aid people with a disability such as speech to text aids are welcomed’ (any feedback on that wording appreciated).

    Reply ↓
    1. AI newbie*

      And I missed the key bit off! To add –

      And in the interview – any suggestions for a script where a candidate is obviously using AI to reply? (Eg long pauses after the question asked and then answers being very ChatGPT in style – long winded and unclear). I’m concerned as to whether we should call it out politely if we suspect it – something like: ‘thank you. Now in your own words, can you tell us what makes a good teapot painter?’ ??

      Reply ↓
      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        Yikes. I think you’re unnecessarily making this hard on yourself.

        This is deceptive behavior – whether it’s ChatGPT, or just Googling, or having somebody else sitting next to them and whispering in their ear. It’s disqualifying to me, flat-out.

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      2. MsM*

        I’d frame it more as “Can you give us the 30-60 second elevator pitch version of that response?” AI might explain the pauses and stilted responses, but this might also just be someone who needs to script things out in advance and isn’t very good at it. Either way, if clear communication is an important part of this role, then that should be emphasized in the application and interview process, and anyone who doesn’t meet expectations can just be thanked for their time and taken off the list.

        Reply ↓
      3. I need to make lunch*

        Ignore all the AI stuff and focus on the actual problem. If someone is being unclear, ask them to clarify. Treat this the same way you would if you’d never heard of ChatGPT before.

        Reply ↓
        1. Hyaline*

          There’s a lot of wisdom here. From the teaching side, AI produces poor quality for what I ask my students to do. They fail the assignment because AI produced failing work. If it’s producing poor application materials and stilted, poor interview performance, just…reject people.

          Reply ↓
      4. HonorBox*

        1) If you’re suspecting something, trust your gut. If you felt like someone had a friend off-camera giving them answers, you might not proceed with them as a candidate.
        2) In the interview, as them to clarify. If they give you a vague-ish answer, just ask them if they can be more specific.

        Reply ↓
      5. JustaTech*

        A friend of mine ran into this years ago (before ChatGPT) where an interviewee was *obviously* Googling the answers to his questions. (Like, he could hear the typing.)
        So my friend (on the fly) googled his next question, read the answer, and then re-phrased the question in a way that an obvious answer didn’t pop up when you searched.

        So maybe you could phrase your questions so you’re always asking about the interviewee’s personal experience and not stuff with factual answers?

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    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      We had a video interview where they clearly were having something listen in and formulate responses, long pause, their eyes went to the side then clearly reading responses off that. I tried asking something off the wall, trying to see if they just had interview notes or what but they still read word for word and the answer didn’t make sense. Someone else on the panel thought maybe it was a translation tool but the reading the reply didn’t make sense then.

      Reply ↓
    3. spcepickle*

      I have had this happen – We just don’t hire them, because when we score their actual answers they are usually bad. The AI ramble normally show a clear lack of understanding about what we do.
      We also ask lots of tell me about a time when you did X type questions, and by asking follow up questions we can normally figure out when someone is bluffing.
      Lastly I highly recommend having a clear probationary period – nobody can hire flawlessly and making it clear that in the first year you are trying them out and they are trying you out takes some of the pressure off the interview process.

      Reply ↓
    4. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      It’s no different from old-fashioned Googling for answers. You just need to dig. Ask clarifying questions, ask them to share how the answers have been relevant at a past job, ask how they’d handle a specific situation. And if you aren’t comfortable after that, well, then you don’t hire them.

      Reply ↓
    5. Generic Name*

      So you ask a question, and the answers are….not good. Honestly, I don’t think you need to try to get around their suspected use of AI to get to the “real them”. Strong candidates don’t need to consult the internet or AI to answer normal interview question. Finish the interview, score their questions, and then don’t hire them.

      Reply ↓
  38. Anon today*

    Does anyone have any suggestions for asking for a better office chair? I started my current role this summer and my chair at the office is awful. In my previous roles, I’ve always had a high end, ergonomic office chair. The chair I have leaves me with lower back pain at the end of every in-office day. The person who manages our office’s budget rejects many office expenses that seem reasonable to me, which makes me hesitant to ask. If I’m experiencing back pain, could I ask for a new chair as an accommodation request?

    Reply ↓
    1. Squeeb*

      Are you absolutely sure it’s *just* the chair? Or is the desk/keyboard also effed up? If you’re at a fairly large company, could you ask about how you can get an ergonomic review of your workstation in general, since you’ve been having discomfort? Then that gives you maybe more leverage in getting EVERYTHING you might need to be comfortable rather than piecemeal.

      Reply ↓
    2. InSearchOf9000*

      You can definitely ask for a better chair if it’s causing you pain. If you’re afraid you’ll get push back, you could try to get a doctors note ahead of time. But I’ve had companies get me a better chair due to nerve pinches. And the chair should cost less than a workman’s comp filing, if you need to make that point.

      Reply ↓
    4. Tippy*

      Oh jeez, I literally just went through this! I’m used to working in a place where it’s HARD to get anything new (government, tightly controlled budget) so if you wanted something “extra” or “nice” then it was a personal purchase. I recently went into private and after trying out probably 5-6 different chairs I finally was like I can’t do this. I researched chairs, priced them out, everything, thinking I’ll just buy it myself. Finally a colleague told me to just ask my boss. I had a whole long explained reason of why, other measures I’ve tried, etc. all prepped. He never asked for any of that, just said sure, get a new chair if you need it.

      Sometimes we make it a way bigger deal in our head than it really is.

      Reply ↓
  39. WheresMyPen*

    I’m organising the quiz and tombola prizes for our work Christmas party. Any ideas on prizes? For the quiz it’ll be in teams so the team will compete as a whole but it’s been suggested to have individual prizes like a gift card and chocolate each. Other suggestions are a bottle of fizz or biscuits, though I’m always wary of non-drinkers being left out. For the tombola (budget £100 total) I’d thought of things like a candle, toiletries, gift card, sweets/chocolates, bottle of fizz/wine, a game, stocking filler type gifts etc. and depending on budget some little silly things, whatever I find when I do the online order! Any other good ideas greatly appreciated :)

    Reply ↓
    1. Cordelia*

      Is there a way that the person can choose their prize, or make swaps? Because there really is no prize that will suit everyone, but everyone can probably find something in your selection that they would like. So they win on the tombola, or are part of the winning quiz team, so they get to pick a prize.

      Reply ↓
    2. Lizabeth*

      Gift cards and good chocolate work for me. No booze, it’s work.

      Wind up toys for the desk? Seeing the windup walking chattering teeth…

      Reply ↓
    4. Jessica*

      I feel like there have been some good AAM threads about office gifts that you might be able to find. Think stuff like mini desk fan, heated gloves, phone charger/backup battery thing, fancy mug, there was lots more good stuff that I can’t remember now. Stuff that would be practical fun for adults, not too childish, not too gendered, not too personal.

      Reply ↓
  40. Sally Sparrow*

    A very low stakes question. I walk to work (about 50-60 minutes one way) and so I change once I get into the office. Some days/outfits getting my shoes (or switching socks) would be significantly easier sitting at my desk than hopping around a bathroom. It is a 3 minute walk from the bathroom to my desk.

    Thoughts on walking (NOT BAREFOOT) from the bathroom to my desk to do this? What about wearing ridiculous slippers I got from a vendor?

    For what it’s worth, I just suck it up. But as the weather gets cold and I’m wearing tights more, it’s been more tempting.

    Reply ↓
    1. stripey giraffe*

      I cycle in, on appropriate days. If I’m wearing overpants, I strip them at my desk. We are not a casual office, so this is really off. I don’t care. So, I’d definitely do the shoes at the desk. I mean, if you’re wearing a skirt & tights & running shoes, no one really cares that you’d change shoes at your desk. I wouldn’t do the slippers, unless your office is so casual that it would be a joke, in which case no one would care if you wore runners in the office.

      Reply ↓
    2. HannahS*

      I think it’s totally reasonable to walk to your desk in outside shoes/boots and then slip into your work-shoes at your desk. I wouldn’t do the slippers, just because it’s a bit more noticeable.

      Reply ↓
      1. A large cage of birds*

        This. I wouldn’t think anything of it.

        If there’ s a lobby area with a seat, that could be a good place too, but that’s highly office dependent.

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    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      So are you saying you’d take your boots off in the bathroom, walk in tights/socks to your desk, and putting on regular shoes there? Why not just walk in your boots to your desk and do it all in one place – I’ve done that plenty of times.

      Reply ↓
        1. ThatGirl*

          I mean if they’re full blown tights with a waistband then I would agree that changing at your desk is not appropriate. But if it’s socks or knee-highs, I see no problem with doing all of the changing at a desk.

          Reply ↓
        2. Sally Sparrow*

          Haha, yeah. Definitely inappropriate to change at my desk as I’m also changing bras (sports bra for the commute). I’m very big on keeping my nice clothes as sweat-free as possible, as in the summer it’s hot as heck and in the winter you’ll still generate some sweat even in a coat.

          But sometimes my shoes have a zips and ties and buckles that are really annoying to do (or undo) standing.

          Honestly I’ll probably keep just doing all of it in the bathroom, but was curious how other people would approach it.

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          1. Goldfeesh*

            Depending on the size of the bathroom- could you see if it’d be okay to put a spare chair in there? It might be handy for other people as well that have to deal with shoe changes, etc.

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    5. InSearchOf9000*

      I wouldn’t wear the vendor slippers, but I think it’d be fine to have a pair of basic flats or loafers to basically accomplish the same thing. However, I think taking off socks at your desk is not cool if you’re in a cube / sharing the space. And obviously if the walking shoes are wet or smelly, they should be left in a bag.

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    6. Ellis Bell*

      Ideas:
      1) Those packable fabric slippers that can be slipped into and hooked on with one finger and tucked into pockets. Use them for the to-and-fro. If they’re a dark colour this will be unremarkable.
      2) Low uggs or unremarkable looking sheepskin slippers that you can heel-toe on. Look for ones that look most like shoes. Keep them under your desk. “slippers that look like shoes” is your search phrase.
      3) Slip on flats or loafers as either your shoes of choice, or as office pairs you use for going between spaces/spare shoes.
      4) Rock the slippers if your culture is sufficiently relaxed. How would you react to a colleague doing so?

      Reply ↓
    7. jm*

      Any chance there’s room in the bathroom for a small chair? You can’t be the only person who needs to change occasionally.

      Reply ↓
    8. River*

      Could you arrive to work a little earlier? I don’t know if you arrive at opening or at the same time everyone arrives? I know being at work early is not everyone’s favorite thing in the world but you might be able to take advantage of the empty office.

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    9. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I have easy slip on boring black flats that I keep at my desk. I remove my boots/sneakers and slip them on and then go to the bathroom to change my clothes. I then go back to my desk and switch to my formal work shoes/socks if needed. I have mobility issues, so changing socks/shoes in the bathroom is a no-go.

      The black flats are a little big so I never really liked them and they are big enough to slip on even with winter socks. But not so big that if for some reason I forget my regular work shoes they wouldn’t do in a pinch.

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    10. HonorBox*

      How private is your desk? If you have an office, I’d just change there. If you have a cube, I’d say go right ahead with slippers or something like that. You’re not barefoot, and provided the slippers aren’t huge fuzzy Hello Kitty ones (not that huge fuzzy Hello Kitty slippers aren’t awesome) that will draw attention to the fact that you’re in slippers, I’d say stop the hopping around in the bathroom.

      Reply ↓
    11. JustaTech*

      Personally I wouldn’t walk in my tights because I’d be afraid I’d get a run in them, so I’d want to pop on *something* over my stockings. Slippers seem like a perfectly reasonable option, although how obviously “slipper!” they are would probably depend on your office.
      Like, maybe not big fluffy bunny slippers, but vendor gifts seem reasonable.

      Reply ↓
    13. RagingADHD*

      I have changed in between trainers and office shoes at my desk since the 1990s. This is a very common thing to do both in pedestrian-heavy locations, and among people who go for a walk at lunchtime.

      I also don’t think it would be a problem walking in sock feet from the bathroom to your desk, unless you walk past the C-Suite or through a client-facing area.

      Reply ↓
  41. Susan*

    I have a few related work issues.

    First, I belong in department A, I’m doing work for both department A and department B. I excel with department A work because I have YEARS of related experience. As for department B work, I’ve managed to get them done but not without doing extensive research beforehand and honestly I just HATE the kind of work I get for department B.

    I’ve tried to ask my manager to push department B work to the actual department B, but my impression is my manager wants to keep the work in department A, especially since it seems like I know how to get it done. But I just hate the work! I didn’t sign up for THAT when I took the role!

    Second, my manager has two subordinates both senior to me, who my manager has told me I’m supposed to help, so in a way I kind of report to them too. Both people aren’t aware of my workload, and they each just assigned me a project that would take SO much work (my fault for making things look easy in the past). Plus, there’s another department B project going on that I have 0 background in. I felt so overwhelmed I literally woke up this morning and just decided I would take the day off, deadlines be damned. Previously, I have voiced my concerns about my workload to my manager, but their response is basically “Everyone else in this department is also busy” or “Unfortunately we don’t have the budget to hire a new person” or “Maybe Dave here can help you with some scanning and filing.” (It takes me 10 minutes to scan and file anything I need to.)

    Third, my salary. I’ve only brought it up to my manager once this year, but while talking about expenses for my assignments, my manager would emphasize again and again the importance of saving the company money. Meanwhile, I’m seeing new positions in other departments where positions that are basically similar to mine paying $20-30k/yr more, and I feel resentful knowing someone with only 2-3 years of experience are making more than me, especially since they’re not tasked with multiple assignments that are SO diverse in scope and therefore easier to do.

    How do I know if my manager is being honest about our departmental budget, if she really can’t or just won’t raise my salary? Is transferring to another department my only option at this company?

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      I think you need to start by being more assertive with your manager: “This isn’t working. I have too much on my plate, and the people giving me assignments don’t seem aware of what I’m already doing before they try to pile more on. I either need you to communicate with your subordinates so they can coordinate their requests, or I need the ability to say “no” when they try and hand me something that will interfere with my priority tasks. I also need you to take getting me unassigned from B-related tasks seriously, because that work is nothing but a time suck that could be handled better by other people. And if none of that is feasible, then I need to be paid in accordance with the work I’m doing, because my current salary is clearly out of step with market trends and my level of responsibility.”

      Ultimately, though, yeah, I think you need to move on. Your manager seems determined to take advantage of you until you either break or make too much of a fuss to ignore, and even if she does capitulate, you’re probably going to have to keep pushing any time you want to get anywhere.

      Reply ↓
  42. Procedure Publisher*

    I was watching/listening to an event on LinkedIn about hiring with two hosts that are currently active in recruiting. One host talked about the role they were working on that had a lot of applicants. They said they spend 6 seconds on a resume to identify if an applicant is qualified. However, they said if they don’t have a lot of applicants, they will spend more time on a resume to identify if an applicant is qualified.

    The other thing that the hosts talked about was when to do a cover letter. According to them, cover letters are best when you have a story to tell that can’t be clear explained with your resume. They also said a lot of cover letters are very much the same from one person to the next person.

    Reply ↓
    1. Rex Libris*

      I can say personally that when reviewing applications I look at those with a cover letter first. A well done, relevant cover letter makes it look way more like you’re interested in the actual job at hand, and less like you’re just applying to everything, no matter what it is.

      Reply ↓
  43. Use it or Lose it Leave*

    Our vacation time is not paid out and does not roll over. It’s also not especially generous (3 weeks). Past years I have lost a week or more because I’m afraid to have no leave left heading into the holiday period.* Then, I feel too guilty taking “even more” leave around our busy months in Nov/Dec (the office is closed several days already). I have some guilt/anxiety about taking leave at the best of times and frequently end up cancelling leave to work because something didn’t get done or there’s some terrible deadline. This year, I said I was taking the full week at Thanksgiving and a long Christmas leave because I have use it or lose it leave to burn. Now my boss is subtly guilting me, or maybe I am overly sensitive, about how we have to get everything done in half the time because of my leave. I am already wavering on cancelling my leave on Monday so we can get more done (I actually just agreed to do this, in fact). If I don’t, it all falls on my boss and that’s not fair. It’s not her fault that we’re a tiny department and not properly resourced for our work. But … I am not the one who set up our leave policy this way, the Board/leadership did. I have already said sadly that if I work Monday I will have to burn “even more” time around Christmas and she won’t like that either. By the time Christmas comes up there’ll be another crisis and another guilt trip. What do I say when the guilt comes? It’s stuff like “I just don’t see how we’re going to get this done with you out the whole of next week.” Or, “with your leave, we’re basically out of time to get this done.”

    Reply ↓
    1. Use it or Lose it Leave*

      *This is partly my fault, because I’ve complained on the open thread that my family simply refuses to plan their Christmas/Thanksgiving until late, but would also be devastated if I skipped it. I’ve had this fight with them so many times and come to tears over it, but they simply can’t get their act together. I would also not be happy to miss the holidays to teach them a lesson. Knowing they’re all celebrating together while I’m working is depressing for me. This year I decided to just over-book the leave and assume the family get togethers would fall somewhere within than window, and it is, but it’s an inefficient use of my leave and now it’s creating problems at work. That stuff is not my bosses’ problem though.

      Reply ↓
      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        “I’m sorry boss, but in past years, with our ‘use it or lose it’ policy, I’ve been losing it. I’ve decided this year I’m just going to use it. I know that might be a hardship, but it’s a hardship coming from the company policy, not from me.”

        Reply ↓
    2. dulcinea47*

      this is not your fault. your boss should not be approving your leave time, then guilting you about it. It’s their job to make sure the business is covered and if they need to deny leave at certain times, so be it. Don’t blame yourself for their poor management skills.

      Reply ↓
      1. Sloanicota*

        Erm well I wouldn’t want her to deny my leave request either, in fact I’d be really irked about that since it’s use-it-or-lose it?

        Reply ↓
    3. SAW*

      I think if you’ve cancelled leave in the past to take care of work emergencies, that’s set the tone for your boss. Now she thinks that anytime there’s a crunch and you have planned time off, you’ll cancel and work instead. This time, don’t do that. It will create more pressure for her to take it up with those above her about adequately resourcing your department. Right now, she’s applying pressure on you to make things work when she should be spending that energy applying pressure to those above her.

      Reply ↓
      1. Use it or Lose it Leave*

        My boss can’t get us more staff (huge budget issues – we both may end up being let go next year, another reason why I REALLY want to use all my leave for once) but she does have potential input into the leave policy. She tends to be blunt but not cruel and may think she’s being factual when she says “I don’t think we can get this done with your leave starting next week. You’re going to be gone the whole rest of the month.” She may not realize I’m hearing this as a request to cancel my leave.

        Reply ↓
        1. SAW*

          It sounds like she is not directly telling you to cancel your PTO – either she is passive aggressively trying to get you to not take leave or you are misinterpreting her bluntness as a request to cancel your leave. Whichever it is, you don’t need to preemptively cancel your PTO in response. You earned your time off, your boss approved it, and you’ll lose out on it if you don’t take it before the end of the year.

          Reply ↓
        2. Pocket Mouse*

          Why are you hearing this as a request to cancel your leave rather than as a statement of fact? You’re free to respond “Yes, it’ll be difficult to get it done. Would you like to talk through what a realistic timeline for completion is, given our schedules through the end of the year?”

          If you’re both potentially getting laid off, I imagine she also wants to use her leave before she loses it.

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    4. Pocket Mouse*

      Your employer is begging for this situation to repeat every year by not allowing PTO to roll over, and especially by not offering very much of it in the first place! Your manager should be making an argument to the higher ups about how this policy has a negative impact on the team’s ability to deliver toward the end of the year. You can’t pay the price for your employer’s decision, that’s their consequence to face. As long as you/employees cave and waive part of your earned compensation (!!), your employer sees no reason to change the policy. Definitely don’t lose the time off you’ve earned, and make sure to frame it that was when your manager implies any difficulties are because of your actions rather than the employer’s decisions.

      Reply ↓
    5. WellRed*

      Your boss is passive aggressive and manipulating you. Take the time you earned as part of your promised compensation. Bigger picture, develop skills to create stronger boundaries and not feel guilty standing up for yourself personally and professionally.

      Reply ↓
    6. Nesta*

      I think the thing to remember is your boss doesn’t feel at all guilty for you losing your leave time, and the company doesn’t either. They are thinking of themselves and what is best for them. You making work easier for them is okay with them, even if it means you are not using your benefits.

      Remember this when you start to hear the guilt trip. Remember that they are okay meeting their needs at your expense. And if that need meant they needed to let you go… they would also do that.

      Do what you can and take your time. Don’t let them make this tiny department structure work on your back!

      Reply ↓
    7. Bitte Meddler*

      Do you have to punch a time clock to get paid?

      If not, can’t your boss just agree to let you unofficially roll over some PTO from December into January? That’s what pretty much every department I’ve worked at in companies with a “use it or lose it” policy does if there’s crunch-work in December but January (or even February) has a lighter work load.

      Reply ↓
  44. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

    When you are asked a question about diversity and inclusion, especially for a position in higher education, how do you like to structure your answer?
    This is a question I now expect to be asked for academic positions, but my answer rambles all over the place. Do you still use STAR for yours to demonstrate how you support EDI efforts?

    Reply ↓
    1. I need to make lunch*

      What’s the wording on the question you expect to be asked? Is it along the lines of “what is your experience leading/being a part of DEI initiatives?” Or is it along the lines of “I am subtlely asking you if you are A Diversity and thus can be drafted to lead our DEI stuff and blamed when it fails?”

      Reply ↓
      1. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

        The questions have varied a little but mostly lean toward or seem to be asking “how do you support DEI in the workplace” or “what is your experience with DEI initiatives.” None have specifically asked about leading them, although I suppose that could be part of the answer. I wish I had made a note of a least one of the exact wordings!

        I have noticed at least one institution, at least on paper, is trying to resist political pressure to eliminate its DEI offices / offerings. Another is pretty blatant on social media about what it is forging forward with (I especially love its library’s first marketing post following the election.) Others have definitely already eliminated them.

        Reply ↓
    2. HannahS*

      The last time that I was asked a question like that, I basically structured it chronologically, with one section about things I did that were more clearly to benefit others, and things I did that were more about my own learning.

      Like, “When I started in [academic program,] I noticed that while there was diversity in [dimensions,] there were other areas where [other dimensions] were lacking. To me, that’s an issue because of [reasons why equity matters.] To support the inclusion of [group(s,)] I started/joined [initiative/committee/advocacy.] It was a really positive experience for me, and also–I hope–for other participants.

      I also made a point of learning more about [issue] so that I could better incorporate it into my [relevant job tasks.] I completed [educational programs X Y and Z,] and it’s really helped me to [do job task with a focus on the relevant areas of equity.]”

      Reply ↓
      1. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

        I typically overlook including training I sought out in my answers, so I especially appreciate that reminder. This is a great structure for an answer!

        Reply ↓
    3. Alice*

      I hate to mention this, but I would also consider that your responses might be public records if you are talking about public universities, and there are people from the Heritage Foundation etc trawling for DEI statement via public records requests. However you structure your statement, consider that it might be read, or selectively quoted, by a larger audience than you might anticipate.

      Reply ↓
    4. KatyL*

      As someone who has served on entirely too many academic search committees, we are now required to ask a DEI question. Tends to be generic “How would you support DEI in this role” or “What are your experiences with DEI in the workplace.” Super generic. Unless this is a specific DEI position, what we’ve been looking for is just: do you know what diversity, equity, and inclusion even means, does your answer reflect support and understanding of DEI work, can you identify where DEI support has or would fit in the job. A successful answer might be something as simple as acknowledging some of the types of diversity you will likely encounter and then something you have done or could do to support one or more of those. Particularly if you have an interest or experience in one or more areas, you can highlight that rather than just talking about the entire breadth of what DEI could include. This is generally a low stakes question for us.

      Reply ↓
    5. Hyaline*

      I would focus on how diversity interplays with the role you have and then build from there. Like–most of us are not actually in positions to build diversity efforts or increase diversity, but sometimes the questions are badly worded and seem to anticipate those kinds of answers and leave us feeling a little flounder-y. But you can pivot to showing how you, in your current role, support diverse student bodies, value diversity, include and enhance diversity in your curriculum, stuff like that. Since I’m mainly boots-in-classroom, I talk about considering and supporting our diverse student population with consideration to returning adults, non-native English speakers, and first-gen students, for example, and developing curriculum to be more inclusive, such as choosing my reading sequences mindful of including varying perspectives and backgrounds (like–I redid one course when I realized that the course pack I inherited was all men). For structure–I would probably choose two or three specific points at which you interact with DEI in some way, then point to specific examples of doing so.

      Reply ↓
  45. I need to make lunch*

    I’m revising my resume for the first time in over a year and a half because I finally saw a great new job posting, and even though I have all the notes I need for updating it, it’s still such a slog to get myself to actually update the document. I don’t know why this is. I know what to write! I’ve even got writeups I’ve done for my performance reviews. But yet making myself actually do it is so hard.

    It’s always like this. Why is there such a block in my head for actually writing my resume, even when I know what to put in it and what to remove from old jobs that aren’t relevant anymore?

    Reply ↓
  46. Analytical Tree Hugger*

    Currently, I’m trying to shift to independent contractor/consultant. I’d like to contact former *pro bono* clients (non-profit orgs) I met through a volunteer matching platform about three years ago to let them know. Any advice on what I should NOT do? Is this a bad idea?

    I read through the volunteer matching platform’s terms and didn’t see anything about this, but I’m 99% sure I must be missing something. I recognize I may need to speak to a lawyer.

    Reply ↓
    1. Sundance Kid*

      This sounds like a great idea, as long as it’s not explicitly prohibited by your pro-bono agreement. (And being prohibited sounds weird to me — personally I wouldn’t expect to see that kind of thing, but maybe it depends on your industry.) Reaching out to your contacts at the old clients to let them know you’re available for consulting and you’d love to help them out? Definitely not an overstep. That’s naturally how lots of those relationships go!

      What NOT to do, since you asked? Don’t bury the lede — don’t ask for coffee to catch up and then spring this on someone in person (people can feel misled that way). But 100% ok to be straightforward about notifying people!

      Reply ↓
  47. Sundance Kid*

    Sanity check: it’s time to shine up my resume, right?

    Work has been turbulent lately. I’m at a 40-person organization. There were layoffs earlier this year, and departures that weren’t backfilled. More layoffs may be coming, although I’m due for a promotion and increased responsibility as part of a re-org. Our retirement match was cancelled at the last minute (for time already worked), and approved work expenses are sitting for a loooong time before getting reimbursed.

    The new role sounds exciting, but those are enough flags to spell “start looking” in semaphore, right?

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Yeah. That’s serious cash crunch time.
      Have you seen things like contract cancellations, poor sales results, etc?

      Reply ↓
      1. Sundance Kid*

        It’s an admitted cash crunch for sure. Combo of delayed payments from a variety of sources, and some bad overall planning from early in the pandemic catching up to us.

        Reply ↓
    2. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      Based on prior experience, any round of layoffs would make me nervous. With the retirement match and work expenses, definitely!
      It is always a good idea to track new achievements and trainings because it can be difficult to quantify / find those numbers later.

      Reply ↓
    4. MsM*

      I think it’s always good to take the opportunity to shine up your resume and at least browse the job listings to see what’s out there, but yeah, I’d start putting out some feelers to your network.

      Reply ↓
    5. Blue Pen*

      Yes, I think so. In general, I update my resume at least once/year. This is partly so that I don’t forget any of my more notable accomplishments, but more so for your situation when the tea leaves are starting to tell me something.

      Reply ↓
    6. Wallaby, Well I'll Be*

      Find that exciting new role somewhere else. This ship is already half in the water. Get out of there asap.

      Reply ↓
    7. WellRed*

      Am I understanding that they canceled your retirement match after the fact or retroactively? Is that even allowed? Regardless, get out if there. They are circling the drain.

      Reply ↓
  48. Panda*

    I took a job about 18 months ago that gave me a large signing bonus. The offer letter I signed says that if I leave before the 2 year mark, I have to pay back 100% of it. I signed it not thinking I would dislike the job so much. I am miserable. My tasks are everything but my job title, my manager is a micromanager, the company as a whole is way too intense, and the notion of work/life balance and flexibility is a joke.
    A previous manager at an old job just called me asking me to apply for a role he has on his team and I would like to explore that, but he cannot wait 6 months for my time to run out. There is no way I can pay back the entire sign on bonus.
    I am thinking of applying for the job and if offered the job, going to my manager and asking her to allow me to pay a prorated amount based on a percentage of time served. Maybe she’ll accept this because she wouldn’t want someone in the role who doesn’t want to be there. Of course this could also blow up and make her come down on me harder if I have to stay. I am not sure what to do. I would love to be able to work under this manager again and the role is right up my alley. But I’m worried about blowing up everything.
    Has anyone been in this situation before? Were you able to get out?

    Reply ↓
    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Part of me thinks you should apply anyway and try to delay the process, ha! Sometimes HR etc is very slow anyway. But you risk burning bridges then if you make it to the end and it’s not 6months and you have to turn the job down.

      FWIW, I’ve never heard of someone only having to pay back a portion of the sign on bonus, it’s usually all or nothing in my experience. So I don’t think your chances are good there.

      Reply ↓
    2. Sundance Kid*

      Ask the potential new job if they can cover it to make you whole as a sign on bonus with them. This is a not uncommon ask — if they want you, they can decide if they want you enough.

      Reply ↓
    3. Hlao-roo*

      Apply for the new job. Like DisneyChannelThis says, hiring often takes longer than expected. It could be a few months before you get an offer, and then waiting 10 weeks might seem like less of a big deal than waiting 6 months.

      If you do get an offer, negotiate for a signing bonus from the new place. They may be willing to give you a bonus for however much you need to pay back Miserable Company so you can start sooner.

      Also, just a contrast to DisneyChannelThis’s experience, I worked for one company where the sign-on bonus payback was prorated based on time in the role (but moving expenses were pay back 100% if you leave in less than 2 years, pay back nothing if you leave after 2 years). So it is possible, but I don’t think it’s likely if it’s not already part of Miserable Company’s policy.

      Reply ↓
    4. Apex Mountain*

      Any chance the new job will give you a similar signing bonus? Or was your last one still during the great resignation days?

      Reply ↓
      1. Panda*

        Great resignation and they were having trouble filling the role. There are not a lot of people in the area with my skill set. My former manager said he doesn’t think the new company will do a signing bonus that large.

        Reply ↓
    5. Bitte Meddler*

      If the new job’s hiring process can be stretched out to three months, would your doc sign the paperwork for you to go on a 3-month FMLA leave, with you handing in your resignation on exactly the 2-year mark?

      Or if the new job needs you sooner, do you have enough sick time and PTO to use up first (dealing with this new mysterious illness you’re about to have, which will eventually require you to take FMLA leave)?

      I just looked it up and, unless your employer has a policy specifically prohibiting outside employment, you wouldn’t be breaking any FMLA rules.

      Reply ↓
      2. Panda*

        This is a great idea, however Miserable Company’s policy is that you cannot have outside employment without their approval. Another reason I want to leave.

        Reply ↓
  49. Granny Weatherwax*

    Does anyone have any tips on giving notice when the change will be VERY unexpected?

    I started a new position in August, which I’m really enjoying, but an opportunity came up at the same organization (different department) that would be a big step up in my career, so I threw my hat in the ring for it…and ended up being the successful candidate! I’m very excited and am currently waiting for the formal offer letter. Once signed, I’ll need to give notice to my current department.

    I’m now stressing about that piece. I know how to frame it from a messaging standpoint, and I expect that they will be happy for me, but I also know there will be negative emotions involved given their investment in my training over the last few months, being left in the lurch with some big current projects, especially given that I’m new and we were just starting to settle into our rhythm and they’ve said very clearly how grateful they are to have me onboard.

    I know this is all a part of doing business – I just hate the thought of letting down people who a) so recently took a chance on me and b) are now relying on me… especially when there wasn’t anything that prompted me to start looking. So yes, I recognize it’s very much a ME issue.

    Any tips or words of wisdom would be most appreciated.

    Reply ↓
    1. Janne*

      I recently gave notice 6 months in on a 2-year project that was going really well and where people had been investing in me a lot. I felt the same as you do now, plus some bad feelings because it was a project on a 2-year grant and I felt like I’d wasted 25% of their money. But people reacted quite okay actually! They were certainly disappointed, but they were also happy for me that I got the new role (also a big step in my career). When I told them, there were 2 things I made certain to say:
      1. I’m going to do my absolute best to hand over things in such a way that these months of work were not wasted
      2. This was truly an exceptional offer, it was a hard decision for me because I have liked working with you all so much, but it’s such a special opportunity.

      Many people reacted like “if I were you I’d also gone for that new job, and thanks for working out your notice and doing your very best” so it turned out fine! I hope it does for you too.

      Reply ↓
  50. Taco bandit*

    I am a federal contractor that works remotely. All this talk about cutting jobs and making people come back to the office is getting to me. I don’t want to have to move out of my area, but I love my job and I also don’t want to lose it. Hoping some people can give me hints and tips to not get lost in the doom spiraling I keep seeing.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      Have you heard anything (official or rumors) of your specific company/agency requiring a return to the office? Did you work remotely pre-pandemic, or do you know if others were allowed to work remotely pre-pandemic? If the answers are “no” and “yes” respectively, then I would take a break from wherever you’re hearing “talk about cutting jobs and making people come back to the office.”

      If the answers are “yes” and “no,” instead, break out of doom spiraling with action! Would moving closer to the office (if you were forced to go in) really be that bad? Do some research on the area–are there houses/apartments you like that you can afford? How’s the weather, the traffic, the restaurant scene, whatever is important to you? Maybe it would be terrible to live there, but now you’re putting some real information behind that feeling instead of doom spiraling.

      Similarly, if you decided to change jobs to avoid moving, how bad would that be? What other jobs are available in your area? Are you OK working in a local office as long as you don’t have to move, or do you want to remote only forever? Check out job ads to remind yourself that, while you love your current job, there are other jobs out there!

      Reply ↓
      1. Taco bandit*

        No and unknown. I was hired during the pandemic and it is my understanding that they didn’t hire people outside the zone then but now 4 of us are out of commuting range

        The area is fine. I am more worried about making friends. It took me a long time to make friends here and they are the most awesome friends in the world. I wouldn’t to lose them although I do prefer a roof over my head. I am fine going into a local office. I have been doing some light looking and I am a bit niche. I haven’t found much I could/want to do that doesn’t have a pay cut.

        Reply ↓
        1. Hlao-roo*

          I get that; I’ve moved a few times and finding new friends post-move is one of the worst parts :(

          I’m glad you have awesome friends where you are right now! A few friendship-related suggestions to stave off the doom spiraling:

          – research how often you would be able to afford to visit your current area to keep up with your current friends
          – are any of your coworkers people you would potentially want to get to know outside of work if you moved closer to the office?
          – are there any MeetUp/hobby/religious groups near the office that are potentially interesting to you?

          Overall, it sounds to me like you’ve got a fairly level head about this and, based on info you’ve shared in this and other replies, I don’t think a forced “return” to the office is super likely in your case.

          Reply ↓
          1. Taco Bandit*

            I could probably come up a few times a year – time it with the big parties people have. Will miss the small stuff but at least i can stay in touch

            yes there are a few people I wouldn’t mind getting to know better if it came to that and I know someone who lives there so I wouldn’t be 100% starting from scratch

            Probably! I will have to look into it but it is near a big city so I imagine that there will be groups I can join.

            I hope you are right and I can keep working from home! I talked to someone today and they are like “you just have to wait and see” and it’s true. I just hate the waiting game. Hungry hungry hippos is more fun

            Reply ↓
    2. Mockingjay*

      I am a remote contractor, too. My company’s contract includes a percentage of work as remote. Active contracts are rarely modified (excepts funds); what usually happens is that the government will wait until the next time the work is competed (RFP) to change terms. That said, some agencies may be under more scrutiny than others in the next Administration, so there could be unofficial “push” to return to the office. (If government employees have to go back, then contractors usually have to follow. Optics.)

      What to do in the interim? Gather metrics on your and/or your team’s productivity so you can demonstrate effectiveness if asked. Ask your manager about remote work stipulations in your contract. If your company or department doesn’t have an official SOP for handling remote work, now would be a good time to pull one together. How is work processed and monitored? Adherence to security or data handling requirements. And so on.

      Also, be prepared. Sometimes the answer is you must return to office. Have a plan for that, too.

      Reply ↓
      1. Taco bandit*

        Thanks! I will talk to my manager after thanksgiving at my next one on one. About 4 of us are too far to commute and I am hoping they will give us a dispensation. I do understand they don’t have enough space for everyone to go in and my manager always says how happy they are with my work so hopefully that makes a difference. Ultimately if I have to move I have to move. Just love it here it would hurt to leave everyone behind.

        Reply ↓
    3. spcepickle*

      Talk to your supervisor! Get as many actual facts as you can.
      I work for the state, we are getting a new governor, nobody knows what will happen with remote work. BUT – My team is a little group in our own mini building and I have lots of local control. So I have clearly told my team that we will still be doing our remote work regardless of what comes down from on high, because nobody will know and we will still get our work done.
      There might be a time in the future that we get overruled or something really big changes, but I can help support my team and give them confidence and timelines.

      Reply ↓
      1. Taco bandit*

        Thank you. That is a good idea. I will talk to my supervisor on my next one on one after thanksgiving and see what the facts are.

        Reply ↓
    4. I need to make lunch*

      Here’s the thing about making people come back to the office: half the reason people are remote in the first place is there isn’t space in the office for them, so they got made remote.

      So there’s a lot of purchasing/renting/building of office space before that’s anything more than an assholic slogan someone came up with.

      Reply ↓
      1. Taco Bandit*

        I do know there isn’t enough space in the office for everyone to show up at once! So I am hoping that will be a consideration to help me stay home.

        Reply ↓
    5. jenny*

      I’m right there with you. It’ll be interesting to see what happens. I trust my federal department to fight for telework as much as they possibly can. I’m not sure that will be enough. As a remote employee, you might be better off than one that is telework. I also think that the attention span of the people that are yelling about this the most is–shall we say–not great. So they might start to forget about it after yelling about it for a while.

      Reply ↓
      1. Taco Bandit*

        I know that the federal department I am assigned to will fight for telework as hard as they can. I also don’t know how much that will help but it’s something. I am hoping that this turns out to be harder then they thought it would be and they will move on to something else. thanks for your thoughts – I figured I was not the only person in this situation on ask a manager so i hoped someone else could talk me down. :-D

        Reply ↓
  51. Anon for this*

    Do support groups/subreddits/forums exist for trailing spouses who aren’t academics?

    I’ve spent more than a decade advancing in my field but have married an academic tenured at a top university in another country—where my niche doesn’t really exist because it’s tied to the US legal system. I may have to leave my field altogether so we can stop being long-distance, and I’m experiencing a lot of grief about the loss of my work identity, even though I’ve been trying to get out for a long time to pursue my creative goals. I’m looking at a future of being chronically underemployed or bouncing from short-term gig to short-term gig, since the job market in my spouse’s country is struggling. After so many years of being self-sufficient and, frankly, rocking it, this switch feels almost impossible to contemplate, and while I am Doing It for Love, I want to be able to protect myself and my earning power in case something happens to my spouse or our marriage. Hoping to read stories about how others have gotten through this or talk to people who are/have been in the same boat.

    Reply ↓
    1. Anon4this*

      Ask your spouse to talk to his university. Many top universities will give a role to a top tenured professor. It might be a lecturer or program center manager but many do this (although many are cutting down because it costs so much). Does your spouse have tenure yet? Usually you see at time of tenure but this might be a way to find a decent paying job. Could you look at legal programs at the university or LLM programs?

      I don’t know if this happens in this country but I have friends who are tenured faculty at Ivy League and many spouses get roles as part of the contract. Look into it.

      Reply ↓
      1. JustaTech*

        If nothing else, the university should have many more local contacts who will know about areas tangential to your current field that you may be able to pivot to (if you’re interested in that), or have information/ support/ actual jobs related to your creative goals.

        And at large universities there are a lot of staff jobs that aren’t about teaching, so you may still be offered a job there.

        Reply ↓
  52. How is this a question?*

    I have a question about billing when you are an hourly employee who works remotely and part-time.

    I have a job where I do a specific job that takes a certain amount of time (think giving a one hour presentation, three times a week). The rest of the time I am preparing and prepping and creating the “presentations”. Because I am a subject matter expert and I have been doing it for many years, I am able to create these things faster than average. As of right now, I am clocking in and out only when I am expressly creating or communicating with the others I work with. This (of course) does not include the times I am planning in the shower, laying in bed thinking, or even the things that happen while clocked in at a work site like grabbing a cup of coffee or walking away from the computer for a break. This results in me billing close to 25% less than is standard for our industry.

    My husband, who worked with mechanics while in college, believes I should bill like they do. He thinks that “if it is supposed to take an hour, but because of your expertise it takes 40 minutes, you bill an hour”. I think it is dishonest because I wasn’t really working that whole time.

    What do you think?

    Reply ↓
    2. Dr. Doll*

      Bill like your husband says! You should be paid for your expertise and experience, also your actual time. That is not dishonest, it’s in fact closer to The Truth!

      Reply ↓
    3. East Coast Commenter*

      You bill the time actually worked (analyzing it in your own head counts) but don’t pad your bill based on how long “should” take, just as you don’t cut your time if something takes longer. If your experience means you’re more efficient, negotiate a higher rate that reflects this but don’t pad the time.

      Reply ↓
      1. How is this a question?*

        I don’t know how to accurately count things like that. 10 minutes in the shower here, an idea being fleshed out during my drive, getting an idea on a walk and running home to write it all down…these are commonplace. This was much easier when I was just salary!

        Reply ↓
        1. Admin of Sys*

          I had to track time per project for a couple of years, and I eventually learned to rough estimate it as I went, but when I started, I used a phone app. It may be worth doing that to get a good feel on how much ‘ambient’ work you’re putting in. Find something with a stop clock and try to remember to click it on whenever you start thinking about work.
          If that’s too intrusive, set up a regular time to log anything in the past 2 hours or such.
          It doesn’t have to be to the minute – I’m a firm believer in at least 15m minimums, if not 30m to 1h. So you thought about the project in the shower, you took 20min to shower, so you log 15m on the project. You brainstormed to yourself during the drive, your drive took 40m, you spent at least 10m following directions and choosing the radio, so that’s 30m to the project.
          It is easier when you’re salary, but I find it helpful to track the timing of things in general every once in a while. Even if it does end up horrifying me just how much time I spend on the internet.

          Reply ↓
    4. Strive to Excel*

      If you’re an experienced subject matter expert, either a) start coming up with fixed prices or b) raise your rates. It only takes you 2/3rds of the time to do what other people are doing? Then what other people have as an hourly wage is your 40 minute wage.

      Do include planning and prep time. Also, don’t stop the clock whenever you run to the restroom or something similarly small, that’s excessively time-sensitive.

      Reply ↓
    5. retirednow*

      There’s an old engineering email that is apocryphal that I’m probably not quoting entirely correctly, but it goes something like this:

      INVOICE:
      1. inserting screw in the correct location: 10 Min/$20
      2.training to learn which screw and which location is correct: 20 years/$200,000

      My point being that you can do it faster because of all the training and expertise you have, which is a benefit to your employer, which means you aren’t charging two hours you’re just charging one hour.

      Reply ↓
  53. Cookies for Breakfast*

    Different flavour of question about internal moves. The company I work at posted a list of internal vacancies, and there’s one I think I might have a chance at (it’s in an area I worked in for years before this company – not my dream job, but my current role hasn’t been great for me recently, and I’d like to at least explore options).

    First off , the internal job adverts don’t show the salary, and we only got generic advice to contact “the People team” with questions. It’s a big team that doesn’t only do recruitment, so it’s unclear who looks after this. I messaged an internal recruiter I’ve often seen posting on Slack, asked for salary details, and she said she’d get back to me – which makes me wonder who actually holds that information, if HR don’t.

    So now I’m wondering how to go about answering my other questions.

    1) Since it’s a big remote organisation, I never worked or spoke with the people in that team. I only know a couple of them by name (including the hiring manager). But I’d like to find out what it’s like to work in that team. Should I message one of the people I’ve seen in the org chart and see if they’d be happy to chat? Or the hiring manager directly? Or apply, see if I get an interview, and start asking questions then?

    2) If there’s room to discuss a shorter working week (not a dealbreaker, but if this role comes with a pay cut, I’d like to negotiate). I’m thinking, let’s see if I get an interview, and then ask if that seems to be going well. Or perhaps I should go right up to the offer stage?

    I also don’t want my manager to know I’m looking into this, unless I get an offer. It’s such a different domain from my current role that I’m worried he’d sideline me if he knew I want to change direction. I was thinking of adding a note to my application to ask that it’s kept confidential.

    Does that sound reasonable? Anything that’s best managed differently?

    Reply ↓
  54. Turkeys*

    My work traditionally held a potluck for Thanksgiving – office provides the turkey, employees bring everything else. I know a lot of commenters hate potlucks, but as someone who loves Thanksgiving for the side dishes, I adored this setup, although I understand why people would prefer not. This year, we had Thanksgiving fully catered instead and oh my word, it was the saddest Thanksgiving ever. Just turkey, mashed potatoes, and mac and cheese. It was good, but on the plate it was all the same color, and my brain started doing the “Werner Herzog’s Sad Beige Toys” voice. I’ll take the food prep risks any day to have last year’s variety of green bean offerings back.

    Reply ↓
    1. jm*

      At a group of lady friends we discussed Thanksgiving menus. We are in the Midwest. I had never considered Mac and cheese as a holiday food, and neither had my 15 friends. Is this just us? Mac and cheese is a weeknight meal for us…opinions??

      Reply ↓
      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        Midwestern too – I’ve seen mac & cheese at Thanksgiving sometimes (but the nice homemade stuff, not Kraft out of the blue box). I think it’s more common in the south, too.

        Reply ↓
        1. Turkeys*

          Yep, we’re in the south, and the mac and cheese is one of the “signature dishes” of the restaurant that catered. (Although I eat at that restaurant a ton and I’m like “you know what’s a signature dish to me? Any of the ones that have a vegetable!”)

          Reply ↓
      2. Strive to Excel*

        I’ve both had and made mac & cheese as a side, but it’s the good baked stuff, not the stovetop variety. I use a ratio of two parts cheddar to one part gouda for the cheese sauce and bake it in a casserole dish. Would recommend.

        Reply ↓
      3. Antilles*

        Mac & cheese can absolutely be a holiday side. I had it growing up in Ohio and then now that I live in the South. Actually, when I got married to my wife and we were trying to figure out what to bring, I actually suggested we start bringing Mac and cheese (both because I wanted it and also because I don’t like a lot of the “traditional” Southern Thanksgiving sides). And it’s now tradition, which also rarely has much in the way of leftovers.
        That said, when you say “weeknight meal”, are you thinking of something like Stouffer’s or box Kraft or something along those lines? Because while I’ll certainly never insult those options as a weekday meal, for a holiday food, it’s usually a quality home-made from-scratch oven version.

        Reply ↓
        1. Strive to Excel*

          If someone tells me I’ll get mac & cheese and gives me Kraft I’ll certainly be insulted! /j

          In all seriousness they are very different beasts.

          Reply ↓
    2. Stuffing*

      Northeast here but I’ve also lived in the Midwest and Southwest and I’ve never seen mac & cheese as a holiday side. No stuffing? I’d expect mashed potatoes and stuffing as a bare minimum.

      Reply ↓
    3. Tech Industry Refugee*

      Stuffing is the best part of Thanksgiving dinner! My family makes a ton of extra stuffing. I would be devastated. Very sad beige, indeed.

      Reply ↓
  55. Alice*

    Hiring managers who post jobs with tons of detail in the job description – like, thirty bullets of duties and requirements and desires experience etc. You presumably don’t want a cover letter addressing all 30 items. How can an applicant tell what is the top priority?
    I’m writing a cover letter now for a posting where I have either direct or transferrable experience about everything – such a good match, I’m getting attached already, though I know I shouldn’t – and I hate the idea of not getting an interview because the hiring manager isn’t aware of all the boxes that I do in fact check, if I leave out the wrong thing.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Some things naturally group together, some things don’t. If you see that 20 of those 30 are things that logically go together (llama stuff), 5 of them are a bit of a stretch (hamster grooming), and 5 are out of left field (laser eye surgery), then ask yourself what you can say to show that you have a broad base of experience, can handle unexpected stuff, understand what kinds of business needs might lead a company to need all of those things in one role, etc.

      Reply ↓
    2. AI? More like A-YEAH!*

      This is where I use AI to help me evaluate job postings. I usually include (3) responsibilities in my cover letter in my cover letter with a succinct experience. AI has reduced my processing time so I can write better cover letters and align my resume to each role. I use AI to revise my cover letters (which I often edit again) as well as offer alignment improvements between my resume and job posting.

      Suggested prompts:
      – Summarize this posting into 5-7 areas of responsibility
      – Write (1) significant achievement for each area of responsibility the hiring manager would likely want to see in my cover letter
      – Summarize the top priorities of this role into 3-5 statements

      I use it to evaluate the red flags or areas of caution I should know before or when applying.

      I also use it to ask, “What are the problems the (in my case non-profit) is trying to solve by hiring for this position?” And you can use that to write a responsibility and/or significant achievement statement that you can write to yourself.

      Reply ↓
    3. Glazed Donut*

      You may want to try running the list through a chatGPT type AI and ask for overall themes or groupings and go from there :) I did that for some of my cover letters and it seemed to work well – and clarify the role in my mind.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hazel*

        If it’s a governmentish, highly structured hiring process, the formal rule will be evaluate on the top 4. And if it’s that kind of process, you could say ‘I meet all the qualifications you require’, just to cover yourself. It sounds like they’re posting the job description more than an ad, which is how government/ public sector does it in my experience. But grouping is also great (‘I’ve done all types of llama grooming for both long and short hair’).

        Reply ↓
  56. Dr. Doll*

    A couple months ago I asked for input on applying for a fancy new job when I’d really rather retire next summer. I didn’t expect to *get* the job, but neither did I expect to *not even be interviewed* and get an icy little form note through the HR system many weeks later.

    I’m not upset in the slightest because I’m pretty sure my application was rejected for Reasons having nothing to do with my qualifications or suitability. But for a job at this very senior, specialized, influential level, I do think it was less than collegial to send a form note without even a name. Bullet dodged, frankly.

    Reply ↓
  57. Blue Spoon*

    Hi All!

    Does anyone have advice for salary negotiations for a lateral move within the same organization? I recently lost out on a promotion in favor of someone at another branch of my organization, and it’s been made clear to me that our director thinks that I would be a good fit for their position. It’s a lateral move on paper, but with more responsibilities (it’s effectively what a person one level above me does at my current branch, only without any direct reports and at a smaller branch) and I am a long-time employee of the organization, so I think I’ve got an okay position for salary negotiations if I am offered the position. On the other hand, since it’s a move within the organization, everyone involved with my theoretical hiring either knows or can easily find out what I am currently being paid.

    I have never negotiated salary before, and while I am looking through articles here, it feels like it’s harder to find ones about a lateral move within an organization like this. Can anyone offer any advice (or at least links to articles I may have missed)?

    Reply ↓
    1. GreenShoes*

      You’re in a good spot to do this. Just because it’s a lateral position doesn’t mean there isn’t room to negotiate more money.

      Talk to your director “I think this new position would be a great fit and I’m looking forward to the added responsibilities. It appears to be the same responsibilities that the Sr. Paperclip Sorter has at our branch. Will I have the same title and salary at the new branch?”

      Reply ↓
  58. JustaTech*

    A Fun question:
    What’s a little fancy thing you do for yourself at work?
    For example: I have a single-serving teapot and two kinds of loose leaf tea, so on days when I need it, I can take a tea break instead of just chugging coffee. (I’m also thinking about bringing in single-serving shelf-stable milk cartons so I can make really good hot cocoa.)

    Do you have a small but over-the-top nice thing you do for yourself at work?

    Reply ↓
    1. Pay no attention...*

      For me, speaking of coffee, instead of having the cheap and tasteless Keurig pod coffee, I bring in a Kalita Wave dripper, and freshly ground coffee, and take the time to make a proper cup of pour over coffee.

      Reply ↓
    2. Panicked*

      I have a small couch in my office and my favorite thing to do on my lunch is to shut my door, turn the overhead lights off, turn on a side lamp, and lay on the couch for a few minutes. I never sleep, but scrolling on my phone while relaxing is a really nice reset for me.

      Reply ↓
    3. Cookies for Breakfast*

      I mostly work from home, but afternoon coffee is still an indulgence and doesn’t happen often (I won’t sleep if I have it after 3pm, and most days I’m in meetings between lunch and then). On days when I’m home alone, if I happen to be free at 2pm, I make an espresso and serve it in a tiny cup from the set we use with guests, with a biscuit or little chocolate on the side.

      When I go to the office, I ease into my day by having breakfast in the building’s common break area (a few floors up from my company’s small office with not much light), and starting my tasks from there. Some days, I’ll easily spend an hour there before moving downstairs to a proper desk, and the extra light in the space makes all the difference to my mood.

      Reply ↓
    4. Tradd*

      I bring Republic of Tea from home. Tea bags. I have a 20 oz stainless steel thermal mug that I put 3 tea bags in, a bit of milk, and some sugar. I have to bring the sugar from home as the office ran out and won’t restock (plenty of the fake stuff, but I can’t have it).

      And this might sound weird, but I pay about $20/month extra to have a totally unlimited data plan for my smartphone so I can stream audio (radio stations) at work. A regular AM/FM radio doesn’t get reception with all the electrical interference from computers. Let me have my radio, leave me alone to do my work, and I’m happy.

      Reply ↓
    6. The grey cat*

      I don’t think is necessarily over-the-top, but I don’t see a lot of people doing it! Sometimes I need a break and want to stop looking at a screen, so I take out a novel and go sit in a comfy chair to read for 20 min or so.

      Reply ↓
    7. Hyaline*

      I have nice little desk accessories like a document tray and pencil cup from Rifle Paper Co that make me happy. I also always get a pretty wall calendar that I don’t actually use, I just like it.

      Reply ↓
    8. Too Long Til Retirement*

      I also bring tea from home. For a while I was bringing the tea that I wanted to use up, but now that I am almost done with that, I can transition to tea that I really like. I am tempted to bring my Gaiwan to work, but that may be too much of a hassle in my open plan office.

      I find that bringing nice balms and lotions so I can take care of my hands during these long winter months is helpful.

      Reply ↓
  59. Pay no attention...*

    Anyone have successful advice or scripts for dealing with people, especially managers or higher ranking people, who chronically don’t bother reading/hearing/comprehending the question before they shoot off an answer. I’m so done with asking a question that requires a specific answer — an easy example for the sake of time, “how many do you want?” — and then the answer back is non sequitur, “yes” or “purple.” What is a diplomatic way of saying, “Please reread my question. Quantity is usually expressed as a number between 1 and 10,000,” without sounding really snarky and annoyed, even though I am really snarky and annoyed?

    Reply ↓
    1. JustaTech*

      I don’t have any advice, but since I’ve had this come up several times in the past month (and then had senior management get frustrated when I didn’t answer the question they didn’t ask because they didn’t answer *my* question) I’m hoping you get some good advice!

      Reply ↓
    2. Sherm*

      You can say “Oh, it’s actually quantity that I need.” Alternatively, if you have a guess of what they’ll answer, you can say “I put down 1,000. Does that sound correct?”

      Reply ↓
    3. Janne*

      When it’s a written question, I like to bold the things that are important. Then:

      “How many do you want?”
      “Purple”
      “Okay, so how many of them would you like to have?”
      Then hope it sinks in at the second time?

      I try to turn the snark and annoyance into amusement at the stupidity of those conversations. As if you’re the audience of a comedic show.

      Reply ↓
    4. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

      I say something along the lines of, “Thanks for the quick reply! To move forward, this project does require a specific / explicit” then insert yes / no, numeric quantity, etc.

      Reply ↓
    5. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If you’re seeing a consistent pattern with this, then I wonder if there’s something else going on – managers having insufficient time, or your messages to them being too long?

      Have you tried the BLUF approach (Bottom line up front).

      =================
      Boss, how many teapots do you want me to buy?

      (backup information)
      Thanks,
      PNA
      =================

      Reply ↓
    6. Glazed Donut*

      I had a manager who would only read the first 2 sentences of an email. It helped him if I put the question/ask at the top and then gave context.
      Maybe ask the best way to ask a question and see if there’s something you can glean from the response.

      Reply ↓
    7. Qwerty*

      People with very little time need very short, very bite sized questions that do not require memory of a prior discussion. They are in back to back meetings and answering your email on their phone while walking to the next one or multi-tasking.

      I try to have a bit of humor about it and remind myself how happy I am not to be in their position. The alternative is not getting a response at all.

      So when you send a few sentences about the item you plan on ordering with a request for how many are needed and get “yes”, just reply and kindly reiterate the question “great – how many?”

      Reply ↓
    8. I need to make lunch*

      Good luck with this. I once had someone refuse to answer a basic question in an email four times that on my fifth response I started it with “I know this is the 5th time I’m asking this but I do need a response”. Was that professional? No. Did it get me the response I needed? Yep.

      Reply ↓
    9. Strive to Excel*

      Make the question the first thing they see. If you have the email culture that allows for it, bold it or change the color. Keep supporting info out of the way as much as possible.

      Avoid open-ended questions if you can, switch to a small set of choices. “Do you want me to order 1, 4, or 10 boxes?”

      Send back a confirm email – “OK so just to confirm I’m ordering 10” whenever there’s something ambiguous instead of just rewording the question. People are better about correcting errors than giving info upfront.

      Reply ↓
    10. Rick Tq*

      I’m dealing with this at a customer and it is maddening.

      I swear the person answering thinks they will be fired if they ever say “I don’t know”… Especially when they repeat their non-response answer when I repeat the question.

      Reply ↓
    11. Nesprin*

      “how many do you want?”
      “yes” or “purple.”
      “Ok, I’ll note that down. Typically people order 100 units to start with- is that the right number for you?”

      Basically toddler principles of acknowledge and redirect.

      Reply ↓
  60. Lizy*

    Are there ANY good things about the new Outlook? My tasks are gone / combined with “My Day” which I don’t want or need… everything looks weird and I just can’t.

    In an effort to not be completely Boomer-esque (I’m solidly Millennial gen lol), and since I’m stuck with new Outlook for reasons beyond my control, I’m attempting to find the bright side… is there one????

    Reply ↓
    1. Elle*

      Our IT folks told us to go back to old outlook. The new one is too buggy and missing a lot of features. You can add emojis to your calendar invite but good luck being able to access your address book.

      Reply ↓
    2. cmdrspacebabe*

      My work has the full Microsoft Office suite. I exclusively use the browser version of Outlook or the equivalent Teams functions because the Outlook desktop app is so laggy that by the time it loads anything, I’ve forgotten what I was trying to do. Webmail still lost a lot of good features (WHY DID THEY REMOVE THE TEMPLATES FUNCTION??????), but at least it doesn’t constantly freeze, crash, and pester me with repeated notifications for an “upcoming meeting” that happened 3 hours ago.

      I think they’re taking out all the good Outlook features to force people to buy into the full MSO suite, personally. A lot of the task management stuff seems to be part of the Microsoft Project or Planner programs, which have mostly the same features but are somehow not the same thing and also you have to pay extra to actually use them????

      I have no benefits to share, only commiseration

      Reply ↓
    3. Strive to Excel*

      I’m solidly Gen X and really sympathize with the mentality of “stop touching my dang stuff, it was already working!” when it comes to tech. I can’t find anything good in the new Outlook, or Windows 11, or the new Adobe, or or or. Mumble grumble.

      Reply ↓
    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      The only good thing I found about “new outlook” is the snooze feature, which I can get to in web outlook just as easily. So I went back to “old outlook” and then also pinned web!outlook to my task bar for when I want to snooze. :P

      Reply ↓
    6. Generic Name*

      I normally don’t have a problem with program/operating system updates, but I hate New Outlook. I switched to New Teams no problem, but New Outlook is terrible. So it’s not just you.

      Reply ↓
  61. He's Gaetz Gone Girl*

    You’re the first interview for a non-profit hiring their first paid position. What to write in my follow-up/thank you email.

    I had a phone screen with the founder of a non-profit who is hiring their first paid staff member 14 yrs after their founding. They’re successful in their work and have employed their model in other states. They have 50 chapters in 13 states. They rely on (3) VISTA volunteers for marketing, customer service, and business development (recruiting new chapters).

    While not adept in interviewing they weren’t totally off base. I spoke about myself, they discussed the organization, I had two questions, and then we riffed a bit. During the call she texted a Board member to let him know that she wanted us to interview. I let her know my status (unemployed) and that I am interviewing with several orgs. She said she wanted to know if offers were made so she could ‘get’ me away from them. (note: this non-profit offers no benefits other than super flexibility, remote work and the opportunity to create, build, and grow the model and provide VISTAs with quality work experiences – all of which I’m there for).

    Knowing that I’m the first person and subsequent candidates will bring something different to the table, what do I write in my thank you email to solidify myself in her mind? Do I introduce new details that tie into what we might have discussed? I let her know she could reach out to me after her other interviews if a question or topic was discussed that we didn’t talk about. She seemed to like that offer.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      If she wants you to talk to the Board and to know what other offers you’re considering, I think you’re probably good. (Unless she does say that to everyone, in which case you maybe don’t want the opportunity as badly as you think.) If there’s genuinely anything you’ve thought of since the interview that you think it might be good for her to know about, feel free to include it, but otherwise I’d just reiterate that you’re excited about the opportunity for X, Y, and/or Z reasons and look forward to next steps.

      Reply ↓
  62. Janne*

    My colleagues and our students and I are going on strike next Monday. Our country’s whole higher education including the students is going on strike because of budget cuts that our government announced. We wrote our slogans on big sheets of cardboard today and will take off half of Monday to travel to the demonstration location and demonstrate.

    I know I have the right to go on strike. Our board even encourages us to go on strike and demonstrate. They don’t like the budget cuts either!

    Still I feel bad about the work I won’t be able to do in those hours. I can do some work in the train to the demonstration if it’s not too busy, and I might do some in the early morning and in the late afternoon/evening.

    What would you do?

    I’m a PhD candidate at a university so it’s not like somebody will notice if I go on strike or not. The demonstration is what it’s about.

    I’m in my first 2 months at the job, so if I don’t perform well enough, they can still easily let me go. That’s how my employment contract works here.

    I don’t think I’m doing too bad at my work, but it’s a massive shift from the (way less independent) work I was doing as a research assistant. So I worry about not being self-sufficient enough. But well, it has only been three weeks and I’m in a totally new city at a totally new university. Maybe it’s too early to worry.

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      If a lot of your coworkers aren’t available because they’re at the demonstration, how much work will you be able to do anyways? Go to the demonstration. Get as much important work as possible done today, plan to prioritize anything that didn’t get done on Tuesday.

      Good luck.

      Reply ↓
    2. Generic Name*

      The strike will be less effective if everyone works on the train and then in the evenings to make up the work they would have done during the strike. That’s the point of a strike; it’s to show how painful it is for the company when people don’t work.

      Reply ↓
    3. Former NL*

      Guessing you are in NL? I would say try to focus on how important the strike is and that the institution supports it, and maybe also be realistic about the amount of work you would get done in reality in those few hours (probably not that much relatively speaking).

      Reply ↓
    4. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      If you’re on strike then do NOT work, on the train or at home.
      Otherwise you’re not on strike, you’ve just chosen to work in less comfortable conditions.

      Reply ↓
  63. BYOD Blues*

    I’m struggling with expectations around personal devices. My boss has expressed that she wants me to put the salesforce authenticator app, slack, the Instagram app, a scanning app, and our company’s banking app on my personal cell phone. Probably also our work email or at least she is surprised I don’t do that as it’s “easier.” I do NOT use my personal device like that in my own life, as I’m super paranoid about tech surveillance and overreach. I avoid apps whenever I can. My boss hears my pushback and has promised to get me a cell phone stipend. But I don’t want a stipend. I would want a separate work device that has these terrible datasucking apps on it. I don’t think that is feasible budget-wise. There are workarounds for all these apps, but admittedly some of them are very inefficient (for example, driving to the bank to make deposits is a lot more time than using our banking app to deposit checks). The sore spot is that these are mostly related to admin tasks that were dumped on me when they didn’t replace our office manager so I’m extra not into it. They’re not even related to my role. Is there a way to frame my request for a separate device that seems reasonable and cost-efficient?

    Reply ↓
    1. Tradd*

      For work email, at least, you can use the web version of Outlook (if that’s what you use). I occasionally have to check email outside of work hours, and the Outlook web version, even on Safari on my iPhone, works surprisingly well.

      I have to use an authenticator app for work computer, but I was already using Google Authenticator for person stuff, so adding another website/service to it wasn’t an issue.

      Outside of the authenticator apps, why can’t you use your work computer? Or is she expecting you to be available outside work hours?

      Reply ↓
    2. Tradd*

      I’m going to be blunt here – how is you pushing back on this and appearing super paranoid going to appear to your boss? What I mean is – is you pushing back going to make you look bad and maybe affect your job?

      Reply ↓
      1. Rainy*

        It’s not even that paranoid, though?

        Do you routinely give your employer the power to wipe your personal devices if you leave their employment? Do you want your employer to see everything you text to your partner and every selfie you take? If you use your camera to get a look at the bugbite on your ass to make sure it’s not a tick bite, do you really want your work IT to have access to that photo?

        Reply ↓
        1. Tradd*

          My extent of using personal phone for work is authentication app (which was already used for personal stuff), managers/coworkers calling/texting me about something if they’re not in the office, or using WhatsApp with one customer who is often overseas, messaging him to tell him to look at an email I sent. I check Outlook email via browser.

          Reply ↓
          1. JustaTech*

            Depending on your organization and what apps you install, your IT can require that you give them the ability to remotely wipe your phone if it gets stolen in order to prevent the company systems from being accessed/hacked through your phone.

            In my opinion this is both a perfectly reasonable security measure and an unacceptable intrusion on my personal life, so I won’t install those apps.
            Everyone’s decision making on this will be different depending on their circumstances, but it’s not that unusual a position to take.

            (I once had a boss who was so over-protective of his cell phone number he almost refused to pick up a call from our Lyft driver, which would have left us stranded at the airport on a Friday evening. I explained that everything went through a switchboard and the driver didn’t actually have his number, but it was a near thing.)

            Reply ↓
          2. Rainy*

            So you get it–it’s not reasonable for an employer to demand that you install software on your personal device that you A) aren’t already using and that B) has serious implications for the health of your personally-owned device (since those company apps are often set up to wipe your device of *all* data when you leave).

            Reply ↓
    3. JustaTech*

      I absolutely feel you on this: I refuse to put my work email on my phone (though I did give up and install Teams because it’s needful to contact my coworkers when I’m in the lab).

      For advocating for a separate device, I can think of two approaches: first, find the cheapest possible device that will run all these apps. If it’s just a work device then it would only need to run those things, so as long as you’re not being asked to take really nice pictures for Instagram, you don’t need a top-of-the line device. If a cheap Android device on a basic mobile plan will do it might be cheaper than the stipend.

      The other approach is to talk about having a work-only device as a security thing. If the phone only has those apps it’s less likely to get lost on vacation or hacked because your kid/roommate/cat installed an app that’s actually a backdoor (or something like those “see how you’ll look when you’re old photo apps that are doing facial recognition).

      Reply ↓
    4. CSRoadWarrior*

      For me, my personal phone is for PERSONAL USE only. I absolutely refuse to put anything work related on it. The only exception is if it an authenticator app. For example, at my current job, I need to use an authenticator app in order to log in to the company’s bank account. But that’s it. Nothing else work related is on my personal phone. Having my personal apps like Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, and Netflix jumbled in with work apps like Microsoft Office, Slack, and the bank’s app for the company’s account seems very invading. Like I cannot go onto my personal phone without seeing work related stuff on it.

      If you require that many work related things on my personal phone, please give me a company phone for work use only.

      Reply ↓
    5. Dinwar*

      “…or at least she is surprised I don’t do that as it’s “easier.” ”

      The translation here is that it’d be easier FOR HER. Sometimes that’s justification for doing it, but in this case it probably isn’t.

      I’m with you on this. I don’t even have a smart phone–I still have a flip phone. It makes and receives phone calls and texts; for everything else I have a laptop. When people object I usually explain the hazards in my industry of having tech on a jobsite (it’s a leading cause of death in my role). If they keep pushing my script is “When the company provides the equipment I will gladly use whatever aps they require.” I work for a Fortune 200 company; I refuse to subsidize their operational costs.

      “…as I’m super paranoid about tech surveillance and overreach.”

      It’s only paranoia if they’re not actually out to get you. There has been ample evidence of tech surveillance and overreach to justify being VERY resistant to pushes to use your own device. I know folks who put company apps on their phones, got fired, and their phones were completely bricked. The company used a backdoor they’d installed in their software to “remove proprietary information”–like the employee’s entire contact list, or their phone’s operating system, little things like that. Then you have the documented cases of groups remotely activating webcams (like schools activating webcams on kids’ laptops).

      To be fair, companies are starting to understand this and are at least ostensibly taking steps to isolate company programs from personal ones on laptops. Still, the best predictor of future actions is past actions, and past actions on this pretty much amount to egregious and ubiquitous violations of even basic privacy.

      “Is there a way to frame my request for a separate device that seems reasonable and cost-efficient?”

      There absolutely should be. This is no different from demanding an employee use their personal laptop for work. But smart phones are so ubiquitous and have wormed their way into our lives so deeply that we no longer think of them as tools, we think of them as extensions of our selves.

      I’ve made the argument, sometimes successfully, that allowing employees to use their own devices opens up a lot of vulnerabilities. You have no idea what I have on my phone, or what I use it for, and if you have company apps on my phone my failures in informational security in my personal life become your problem. Plus there’s always the question of whether your apps will be compatible with my phone.

      Reply ↓
    6. Admin of Sys*

      You could frame it from a security perspective: that your personal phone isn’t secure enough to keep company information on, so you’ll need a dedicated phone. This is easier if you have other people in your household that may use the phone. (example danger – your kid downloads games to the phone, they may not be vetted games, that’s fine if you’re just risking personal email but not company data. You /obviously/ wouldn’t ever risk company data on the company phone) This is especially useful if she wants the banking app there!

      If you’re the only one who would ever touch the phone, can you argue it from a quality of phone perspective? Your personal phone is already nearly dead / at capacity / really struggling, you’d need a new phone to manage all those extra apps, why not just get a company phone that is for company things, and then it belongs to the company and you don’t have to worry about stipends, the company can just manage the phone bill / dataplan / etc. And that way, there’s no concern about the company having to accidentally pay for bandwidth when you’re using the phone for personal things!

      Reply ↓
    7. Strive to Excel*

      “Sorry boss, my phone got destroyed in a tragic accident. I’ve decided to get less tech-addicted to I’ve switched to this little keyboard phone. I’m afraid if you want me to do all this you’ll need to get me a work phone as getting a new smartphone is out of my budget.”

      Reply ↓
      1. Dinwar*

        There are two common reactions to seeing I have a flip phone:

        1) “That’s horrible! I couldn’t live that way!”

        and

        2) “I really wish I could go back to that. It seems like a much better way to live.”

        #2 is much more common, and becoming more so.

        Reply ↓
    8. Apex Mountain*

      If they’re offering you a cell phone stipend, isn’t that basically the same as having a work phone? In other words with the stipend you can get a separate phone for all the 2FA, etc.

      Reply ↓
      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I’m thinking that they will just reimpurse a certain amount of the phone bill not pay for a whole seperate number, and plan.

        Reply ↓
      2. Rainy*

        At my old employer the stipends (for people who even qualified for them) didn’t cover the full cost of service every month, let alone a whole separate phone.

        Reply ↓
    9. allathian*

      I’m so glad I don’t have to worry about this because using personal devices for work would get me written up if not fired.

      Reply ↓
    10. DontDoIt*

      I won’t use a personal device for work.

      Be aware that if you put any work-related content on a personal device that device can be confiscated if there’s any legal action against the company. Also many companies will install mechanisms to delete everything on your phone of you leave. Yes, on your personal device.

      Don’t do it.

      Reply ↓
    11. WestSideStory*

      Absolutely refuse. That’s a lot of apps – if they require this much firepower they can buy. you. a. phone.

      If you need a script, you might tell them you checked these apps out, and your current phone is not upgradeable for the apps. Be sure to mention the security issues – for goodness sakes they want you to do their banking on your phone? “You mean the phone I let my two-year-old play with during church?” Get creative.

      And: They are saving money on not having an office manager. They can buy you a phone.

      Reply ↓
  64. contigo*

    I’m in one of those nasty spots in life in general where several things (mostly health related) are going wrong and all making each other worse, and one of them is that my executive dysfunction has absolutely tanked. My meds and preexisting ADHD coping strategies have just stopped working in the past few months, and I’m having trouble seeing a doctor about it because blah blah medical bureaucracy issues, and meanwhile I’m fighting for my life out here just trying to bootstrap myself into the essential hygiene and chores.

    Obviously this is impacting my job as well and I keep making really bad, like mortifyingly bad, mistakes at work. I have that Captain Awkward “how to tighten up your game at work when you’re depressed” article open in a tab all the time. I’m slowing down and taking notes and making checklists and double- and triple- checking my work like my life depends on it, because it does, but I’ve been making errors so basic (like, “looked right at something and didn’t see it” basic) I don’t even know how to head them off in the future. I’m genuinely worried something is wrong with me and getting worse.

    I am my boss’s only employee, so there’s no EAP or HR to go to for support, no short-term disability policy, and no way to rearrange workload that isn’t “push it back on my boss.” I can’t tell him I’m having health problems, because the business is too small to have ADA protections and I don’t even know what I could ask for that could help. Anything I do wrong, or miss entirely, pushes work back onto him. He’s fed up with me and I’m fed up with me, I was verbally warned last week, and the constant stress and feeling like I can’t trust myself is just making me more anxious and error-prone. How do I pull out of a spiral like this?

    Reply ↓
    1. Ostrich Herder*

      ADHD half-of-a-two-person-business commenters unite!

      I’ve been there. Like, exactly there. I was completely overwhelmed, I made mistakes by accident, I made mistakes I knew I was making but didn’t have the wherewithall to stop myself, and then the combined guilt and shame of all my mistakes and all the things I had neglected turned into a paralytic. I call it Being In The Pit. It’s awful. It’s exhausting. I know exactly what I need to do to fix it an am physically incapable of doing so.

      This is long, and mostly based on personal experience, so your mileage may vary. But I’m speaking to you from (mostly) the other side of The Pit after making a five-figure mistake and a couple four-figure mistakes while I was still in the depths, so hopefully some of it will help.

      – Be okay with lowering your standards A LITTLE. I was used to my ADHD-fueled hyperfocus making me a sky-high performer who could do anything and everything. Then it betrayed me and I could do nothing. Steady progress that’s not as fast as what you usually do is way better than doing more, but doing it poorly. Don’t relax on being accurate, but stop aiming for speed, you don’t have that right now. And that’s okay! You were probably OVERperforming before now. Your boss might have a weird time adjusting to you working at human speed, as opposed to superhuman speed. This will feel bad, but is generally fine as long as you’re visibly improving.
      – Sounds like your lists need to be more structured. “Not seeing something directly in front of your face” sounds like you need a checklist, not just a to-do list. When you’re in constant sensory overwhelm from the depression and the anxiety and the paralyzing shame-filled mountain of unfinished work, you can miss things unless you’re specifically looking for them. So make a list of what you need to specifically look for, and you’ll be more likely to find it.
      – What’s your boss like, as a person? Mine is pretty good, most of the time, so I found that SOME level of honesty was the best policy. I was in the same boat, where saying “I am In The Pit. I can’t work because my brain is full of lightning and I’m sad :(” was not really an option, but because my boss is a decent guy, I could say something like “You’ve worked with me long enough to know that this isn’t the standard I usually hold myself to and honestly, I’m mortified by [mistake]. I’m taking it seriously, I’m working to fix it, but I need you to know that I’m not okay with it, either, and I understand that it has an impact on a lot of people, including you.” I stole ‘mortified’ from AAM and I’ve found it very useful, seems like you have it in your pocket too.
      – Is there anything you CAN do alright right now? For some reason, when I’m in The Pit, I can still copyedit. It’s a weird autopilot thing that I retain no matter what. Can you take some of that off your boss’s plate, to free up time for more structure/oversight from him? Can you take some terrible admin work off his plate to free up that time? Sure, the work is terrible, but all work is terrible right now, and knowing that you’re directly helping him (and making up, a little, for the mistakes) can be a powerful motivator, even from the depths of The Pit.
      – Embrace slow change, and track it so you can see it. I don’t know your industry, but in mine, we bill by the hour. When I’m in The Pit, my billable hours plummet. Even committing to just getting 15 more minutes of work done for the next three days is achievable enough to give me that sweet, sweet dopamine without making me feel additionally overwhelmed.
      – Assign tasks by emotional load, not just time/difficulty. Doing a hard thing that was recently assigned is easier, emotionally, than tackling a simple task that’s covered in guilt and shame. Knock out at least one ‘hard’ task (emotionally) a day and give yourself breaks with ones that don’t send your heartrate through the roof.
      – Expect at least a little grace, and don’t prostrate yourself. If you have to reach back out and pick up long neglected things, a “Thanks for your patience on this! I was able to sit down with this again recently, and…” and just rolling right into it does wonders. If people get mad at you… Okay. That’s fine. They’ve probably been mad at you the whole time and you’ve managed to survive that. This is the first step towards them getting over it.
      – You are 50% of this business. Hiring to replace you would be a nightmare. Your boss does not want to do this unless he has no other choice. This should bring you a little comfort, at least.

      In general, I think it’s easy to get caught up in guilt/shame cycles, especially around mistakes or neglected tasks, at work or at home. You have to figure out what interrupts those cycles for you, which will be different than what works for me. But figuring out how to throw wrenches in the machinery of your guilt/shame cycle is your most essential survival skill, so keep an eye out for things people say or do that help interrupt it, and try them on for size.

      Reply ↓
    2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      It sounds like your job is in a lot of trouble now. While telling your boss about the medical problems may be risky, since as you note you aren’t protected, it could also provide him with an explanation that isn’t just “contigo is suddenly super flaky”. So it may still be the best of bad options, especially if you emphasize that you are working to see a doctor about it and realize that it is impacting your work. This all depends on your boss, who you know better than we do – is he likely to cut you some slack if he realizes this is temporary and has a reason, or to just fire you on the spot if he realizes it isn’t something you can just snap out of immediately if you really wanted to?

      Reply ↓
  65. Sherm*

    You can say “Oh, it’s actually quantity that I’ll need.” Alternatively, if you already have a pretty guess what their answer would be, you could write “I put down 1,000. Is that correct?”

    Reply ↓
  66. Sal*

    Does anyone have good strategies for essentially dealing with being in a job you don’t like? I recently was interviewed for a job that was a unicorn role and I was a great match on paper–I got through two rounds and then got a form rejection. I’ve been unhappy in my current role for a while for a few reasons (e.g., prefer a smaller org, my inexperienced direct supervisor snaps up credit for absolutely everything, etc.) and I’d gotten excited about this other opportunity. Now I’m deflated and trying to figure out what I can do to try to snap out of it. I have a decent salary now and can work remotely when needed, so there are some positives about my current role.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      You made it through two rounds! I suspect that’s less about you not having what it takes and more about the other candidate(s) bringing some kind of intangible you can’t control for or them suddenly deciding to go in a different direction. Just keep looking, take advantage of the remote flexibility, and invest in your life outside of work as much as you can until something does pan out.

      Reply ↓
    2. Wallaby, Well I'll Be*

      Just keep applying for other roles and don’t stop. Never have just one application out there, for exactly the situation you’re describing! Give yourself something else to look forward to.

      Reply ↓
    3. Tradd*

      Concentrate on your evenings and weekends to do stuff you love. I’m happy staying home in the winter, being cozy, and devouring books whole. I like my job, but it can be very stressful. As long as I’m able to stream radio on my smartphone (I pay extra for an unlimited data plan as we don’t have access to office wifi), I’m happy. When I’ve worked places I couldn’t have my radio, it was horrid.

      Reply ↓
  67. stelms_elms*

    We are accepting applications for an open position. A candidate submitted their resume with a summary section and talked about themselves in the third person, i.e. John accomplished x. Mr. Smith has extensive experience with Z. I’m unsure of the logic here.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It’s a thing that sometimes happens. Pretty sure Alison has written about 3rd person resumes before (she doesn’t like them).

      Reply ↓
    2. CSRoadWarrior*

      If I were the hiring manager, I wouldn’t necessarily see this as a red flag, but I would be curious. If the candidate looks like a good fit, I would still invite this person for an interview.

      But this is just my personal opinion. I would say just think about it and make your judgement.

      Reply ↓
      1. River*

        My thoughts exactly. A resume/application can say/demonstrate one thing but real life action and doing the job can be something else.

        Reply ↓
      2. MsM*

        Yeah, as long as they’re consistent about it, I wouldn’t reject the resume on those grounds alone. If they decide to do the interview in the third person, though…

        Reply ↓
    3. Apex Mountain*

      I don’t know the logic, but does that seem relevant to whether they’re qualified or not? I’d ignore that and just look at their experience.

      Reply ↓
    4. JustaTech*

      When I’ve been having a really hard time with my cover letter or annual review I’ve written it in the third person, but I’ve always gone back and re-written it in the first person!

      It’s one of those “odd but not necessarily wrong” things. It doesn’t feel like a “one weird trick” thing, at least.

      Reply ↓
  68. Chocoglow*

    Any ideas on how best to deal with a misogynistic a$$ who keeps harassing our main office staff (myself and our front end gal) about an online sales commission percentage that we have absolutely NO control over, nor do we have the power to just give out extra money willy-nilly. I’m redirecting his most current email to our upper management, but I honestly need a good, non-pissy script for getting him to leave us alone on the phones. Using our current inexperience and lack of power to change this has helped some, but frankly, he’s wrong, he’s been trying to bulldoze over a ton of rules for this year’s sales event, and I am a hair’s breadth away losing my temper in a fashion that while epic, will absolutely get me fired.

    Please, Commentariat-Kenobi; you’re my only hope!

    Reply ↓
    1. saskia*

      Have you spoken to your manager about this? Are his incessant, long, unproductive calls blocking others from reaching the desk? Do they have any strategies for you?

      Can you just say like, “Hi sir, thanks for reaching out, I’m transferring you to [name], who is in charge of this. Unfortunately, this issue is not in my purview, so please direct your contact there going forward. Thank you.” Then hang up. (Or say, “please email [name]”.)

      Reply ↓
    2. Tradd*

      “I’m sorry, but I can’t help you with that. X [name of person] can answer your questions.” Can you NOT pick up his calls? I’ve worked with people on other teams who were so horrid to deal with on the phone that I refuse to answer their calls. Email only.

      Reply ↓
    3. Hazel*

      ‘I’m sorry I can’t do that so I’m not going to waste your time’.
      Gets rid of a lot of sales types because they know it will not change no matter how long they spend wearing you down.

      FYI using ‘gal’ isn’t a great look …

      Reply ↓
    4. JustaTech*

      “As we have discussed previously, that it outside of my ability to change. The person you should email about [Topic] is [person]. Have a good day!” Click. Cheerful tone, but not letting him get a word in edgewise.

      And then you can imagine the phone extension my husband’s startup had for particularly persistent sales people – 15 minutes of screaming monkeys.

      That’s for the overly persistent part. For the misogynistic a$$ part, document and let your manager know about that as well, and if it gets to the point of harassment (in the technical sense) consider taking it to HR. I know sometimes sales people can be untouchable, but not always.
      I’m sorry, this sucks!

      Reply ↓
  69. nom de fume*

    Have a doozy of a situation in which an otherwise nice group of interns had been getting kind of unexpectedly disrespectful/uppity, to the point of a couple conversations this week that frankly could reasonably lead to ending the internship. But putting the pieces together this week, those of us at mid-level think a new staff member has actually been spreading pretty vicious lies about a couple staff members to the interns, a couple of who are now treating the staff like pariahs, being very disrespectful, etc. (One even repeated a terrible, character-assassinating lie to a superior.)

    The issue has been raised to the grandboss who is looking into it, but is a very deliberative (and non-confrontational) person—so we won’t get an immediate resolution with the staff member. I don’t think we can tell them they’re hearing and perpetuating vicious lies unless/until the staff member is disciplined. But in the meantime the bad behavior is continuing, and the targeted staff are deeply hurt and uncomfortable. Alison often talks about addressing the behavior, but is there a way to shut this down without being able to identify the real bad actor, and without feeding the rumor mill even further? I have suggested it but can’t act on my own – just wondering if there’s a way to flesh out the idea, or if it’s just not a good one.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      Yeah, someone at your company can and should be addressing the interns’ behavior. For this conversation, it doesn’t matter if they’ve been hearing rumors, who has been spreading rumors, if the rumors are true and staff members really do XYZ. What matters is the interns need to treat staff professionally and respectfully (and the staff should do the same for the interns). That means not treating the staff like pariahs, not being disrespectful, not spreading rumors.

      Who manages these interns? Is it one person or a few different people? The intern managers are the ones who should handle the broad conversations about professionalism, and then staff members can follow up with in-the-moment corrections when they see un-professional behavior.

      Reply ↓
    2. I need to make lunch*

      The problem is the behavior, not the lies that are being spread. Well, that’s also a problem, but the actual problem is their behavior, and you need to speak specifically about the behavior.

      Reply ↓
    3. Strive to Excel*

      “We expect you to demonstrate X and Y professional behaviors at work. That includes being polite and professional with your fellow staff members. If you have concerns about someone’s conduct at work, those should be brought to your manager who will address them in the appropriate manner.”

      Alison had a letter relatively recently about two employees carrying on a long-running feud that included some great scripts about telling people to knock it off immediately.

      Reply ↓
  70. Blue Pen*

    I won’t give specifics, but I just want to say that work can be so tiring sometimes.

    Today is one of those days: one colleague doesn’t understand (or can’t accept) why my team is unable to do something they want done, and I’ve spent way too much time this morning trying to come up with ways to explain why to them in a way that simultaneously conveys “no” and massages their ego.

    Reply ↓
    1. Tradd*

      Ugh. You have my sympathy. I’ve had too many times of that myself. I’m sorry. Hopefully you’re just a couple of hours from the weekend!

      Reply ↓
    2. ferrina*

      My sympathy! I’ve done that song and dance a few times, and it is soooo tiring. And a giant waste of time that I definitely needed for other things.

      Reply ↓
      1. Blue Pen*

        Thank you! I’m a massive people-pleaser, too, and I hate having to expend so much emotional energy on trying to make someone else happy when they should know I’m not saying no to be mean or difficult. My hands are legitimately tied on this one.

        Reply ↓
  71. saskia*

    1. Is anyone following up on their job applications after applying? If so, what do you say, and how has it worked out for you? I’m job searching and wondering if I should do this.

    2. Has anyone gotten a new job recently through cold applying (versus having a connection)? Any tips? (My current guiding stars are applying as soon as I can after the job posts + targeting my resume and cover letter to the posting.)

    3. I have a high title (arguably, a vanity title at a startup) that I think is doing me a disservice for most of the (lower-sounding, but not actually less difficult) jobs I’m applying for. I’ve been changing it on some resumes to what makes more sense for the role (i.e., changing from Manager to Team Lead — not the actual titles). Has anyone done this? If my name and linkedin are public, is this even a good idea?

    Reply ↓
    1. stripey giraffe*

      I’ve gotten a job through cold-applying this year. My only tips is to tailor the resume/cover letter to the skills you think they want as much as possible. It takes me several days to rewrite, so put a lot of effort in. Also, being first isn’t necessarily a bonus. I got to be in the #2 position for a job (sadly #1 wanted it), again cold applying. They said it was actually a bonus that I had applied very late – I’m not sure why, I guess they were hoping for a better candidate pool? Anyway, I was told in actual words that it was a bonus I was near the end of the (internal, not publicized) deadline.

      Reply ↓
    2. aimless*

      I’ve been following up if I don’t have a connection at the company and I can identify the hiring manager. I know its gotten me at least one interview.

      I keep it very brief. I start by saying that I applied for the position and wanted to introduce myself. And then just a few bullet points on my qualifications and why I am interested and include my resume.

      I think its worth a try, especially if you’re very qualified but see the role already has hundreds of applicants.

      I’ve gotten more interviews from cold applying than from networking so far, but still no job offer.

      Reply ↓
    3. Rainy*

      I got my new job by cold-applying. I actually applied after the first consideration deadline had passed and got a call from the hiring manager two days later to tell me a little more about the job and invite me to a zoom interview. It doesn’t matter when you apply if you are well-qualified. It *does* matter that your application materials show that you are a great fit for the role, so yes, tailor those materials, but everywhere I’ve worked in the last ten years, it doesn’t matter when you apply. Everything goes through the same system regardless.

      I have never followed up on a job application. I sat on multiple hiring committees over the years at my last role, and found it annoying when people tried to guess who was on the committee and emailed them.

      Reply ↓
  72. Freddie Mercurial*

    I’m interviewing for an internal position in the same org but different department. I’m not sure how to let my manager know. Normally, I wouldn’t say anything unless I had an offer, but the way interviews are handled, I know they could find out earlier. If they are going to find out, I’d rather it be from me. We don’t have a bad relationship but they are not my favorite person. And if I don’t get an offer, it might be awkward.

    Reply ↓
    1. ferrina*

      When you tell them, focus on the “unique opportunity” that the other job brings. If you are worried about your manager, position it as “it sounded really interesting, and I’d kick myself if I didn’t at least throw my hat in the ring.” It’s not that you were actually looking; it’s that the opportunity appeared in front of you, and you figured you might as well try.

      Reply ↓
  73. Temporary Anonymous*

    I need a gut check on something.

    My father-in-law has been sick for most of this year, and we just moved him to hospice. I work closely with clients who don’t have great personal boundaries. It’s part of my company culture that we have a high tolerance for emotionally needy clients that get fired elsewhere. They’re all NICE, they just don’t understand that business relationships ≠ personal relationships. My services aren’t related to, like, mental health or family or anything, there’s no particular reason for the weird boundaries, it’s just the clientele this firm attracts/tolerates.

    One of these clients is notoriously annoying and overbearing – I’ll call her Jane. When my father-in-law got sick, I mentioned to my boss, the owner of our small company, that I was not going to give Jane any details beyond “family emergency” and that she would probably be upset/push back. I was right. Every time I’ve had to be out of office for a few days, Jane has sulked – lots of “this would be easier if I knew exactly what was going on” and “I really worry about you, especially when I’m in the dark like this.” She’s even reached out to my boss to “check in on [Anon]” and angle for more info. We’ve laughed about this, as it’s classic Jane behavior. All this to say, he definitely knows that I didn’t want her to have any details.

    The day I got back from moving my FIL to hospice, I overheard my boss on the phone with Jane through our shared office wall. I usually try not to eavesdrop, but I heard the word ‘father-in-law’ and, well, you know. She (ostensibly) asked where I had been the last few days, and he just told her… Everything. Without any apparent prompting beyond the initial question: “Oh, she was moving her father-in-law to hospice. Yeah, he got sick in [month] with [specific diagnosis] and they’ve been at either [hospital 1] or [hospital 2] pretty much constantly ever since. I know they tried [treatment] and it seemed like that was going well, but it stopped working in [month] and it’s been downhill ever since. They moved him to [hospice facility] on Wednesday, she said he probably had about a month left. So that’s what’s been going on. Don’t tell her I told you.”

    I know for a fact it was Jane (he addressed her by name and later talked about her work specifically) and I heard the conversation word-for-word, it was fluid, all at once, it’s not like she wrenched it out of him or anything. I’ve since had one meeting with Jane, where she didn’t let on that she knew, but her weird emails have completely stopped. Am I overreacting for being furious about this? And is there any way to raise it, since I heard it through a wall while his door was closed?

    Reply ↓
    1. stripey giraffe*

      Your boss probably forgot/was unguarded, so that’s a mistake on his part. There’s nothing to be done about Jane, but you can say that you heard the conversation, and are disappointed. But, you can’t take back the info.

      Reply ↓
      1. tabloidtainted*

        He said, “Don’t tell her I told you,” which isn’t what you say when you’ve forgotten that you were asked to keep something private. OP, I would be furious too. And I would absolutely raise it.

        Reply ↓
    2. MsM*

      No, you’re not overreacting. Yes, you should tell him you’re not happy about the situation, both because he did exactly what you asked him not to do and because you shouldn’t have to give Jane a reason to get her to quit being pushy; he needs to set and manage boundaries with her. The fact you could hear him through the wall just further emphasizes that he wasn’t even trying to respect your confidentiality, since anyone passing by could also have heard.

      Reply ↓
    3. HiddenT*

      Oof. That’s really not great of your boss. I can understand feeling angry about this, he basically decided to toss your feelings out the window in order to tell her *everything* you didn’t want her to know. I would assume his motivation was ending her harassment because he got sick of it, but that wasn’t his call to make.

      I would give yourself a day or two to try to work through the anger and then calmly try to discuss it with him. Ask him why he did it. Don’t be conciliatory or try to save his feelings, and don’t tell him it’s okay, even if he apologizes. You need to talk to him about it because you need to know if he’s going to do it again (likely).

      Reply ↓
      1. Temporary Anonymous*

        Thank you for this, and specifically for the conversation advice. Office culture has a big focus on never having open conflict. I definitely would have instinctively tried to be conciliatory and reassure my boss to de-escalate the situation, and the reminder not to do that is a timely one!

        Reply ↓
    4. WellRed*

      You’re right to be upset. Honestly your boss went wrong way before this, however, when you and he laughed about Jane being Jane. Not only should he have shut it down with her, he showed you he talks about his employees behind their backs. Put them both on an information diet.

      Reply ↓
    5. Strive to Excel*

      You are not overreacting. Your boss shared private medical information, unasked for, with a client you already knew was being pushy.

      It would be completely reasonable to say “Hey Boss. I heard your conversation with Jane the other day. I’m super unhappy that you went behind my back to share my family’s private medical information with people at all, let alone someone I specifically asked you not to. Please don’t do it again.” Also, moving forwards, consider putting your boss and coworkers on an information diet.

      Reply ↓
    6. allathian*

      No, you aren’t overreacting. But letting your boss know that you overheard his side of the call with Jane wouldn’t be out of line either. You weren’t eavesdropping, you heard the call without trying when he mentioned your father-in-law.

      Put your boss and coworkers on an information diet from now on, don’t tell them anything you absolutely don’t have to. If your boss has the temerity to question your decision, I hope you can say something about how he betrayed your trust by telling Jane things you specifically asked him not to share, if you think you can do that without risking your job. If not, shrug and change the subject.

      How are clients assigned at your job? Would it be possible for someone else to see Jane and for you to avoid her from now on.

      I’m very sorry about your father-in-law.

      Your boss did you wrong by sharing something you wanted to keep private, but I hope you can appreciate the silver lining, Jane’s stopped bothering you.

      Your boss, coworkers and clients don’t have the right to demand private information. So when things happen that mean you’re absent, feel free to invent an innocuous story you don’t mind sharing. They’ve forfeited the right to the truth.

      Reply ↓
    7. Busy Middle Manager*

      Truth is in the middle. FIL is in hospice is a completely normal thing to share, it’s not a big secret, I can’t hold your boss accountable for sharing it.

      Your issue is clearly boundaries, I’d probably have a chat with Jane next time she called/popped in. “Why did you push so hard, this has nothing to do with work, I try to not bring it up because I’m sick of talking about it constantly and work is my one safe space. We can’t have a good relationship if you don’t respect my boundaries”

      Reply ↓
      1. Temporary Anonymous*

        This is really at the crux of it. If he’d just said “She was moving her father-in-law to hospice, she prefers not to talk about it at work but that’s what’s going on” or something, I’d be a lot less bothered, but it was the blow-by-blow recount of his whole illness, down to telling the client where he was in hospice and when we expect him to die, seemingly unprompted, that’s sending me through the roof. Even if it had been “She’ll likely be out again in about two weeks, when he passes away.” it would have at least been work-related.

        Reply ↓
      2. WestSideStory*

        Hard disagree. Boss was way out of bounds talking about some other human’s health and he has no connection to that human.

        It seems like Jane now knows enough to be quiet about it. OP shouldn’t bring it up with her, that’s only asking for an argument. And if Jane does bring it up, she can simply say, “I don’t care to discuss that” and move on to work talk.

        Hospice can be lovely (both my parents had it) but it’s nobody’s business to gossip about someone’s family.

        Reply ↓
    8. Temporary Anonymous*

      Thanks all for the input! I appreciate it. I’m seeing the phrase “information diet” in a lot of comments and I love it. This will shock you all to hear (sarcasm) but we have a pretty open office culture to the point of it being weird to not voluntarily provide lots of detail. If I told my boss “I have an appointment and will be out the morning of the 5th.” he would assume I was either interviewing somewhere else or dying – why else would I fail to specify? If I say I’m going to the dentist he’ll ask if it’s a routine cleaning or I have a cavity or what, and expect a thorough answer. So I imagine he’s going to get… Weird… When I stop telling him literally everything all the time, but hey, he’s lost those privileges.

      Reply ↓
      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        That was a shitty thing for him to do, behind your back.
        When you tell him how disappointed you are that he broke your confidence, also tell him that – as a natural consequence – in future you will give him only the bare minimum personal info.

        e.g. just give day/ time of a medical appointment but not what you are having done.If he then worries that your dental appointments are really interviews, remind him why you no longer give detail.

        Reply ↓
  74. myceliyum*

    I’m a younger/newer manager who’s had some turnover in the positions I supervise. I don’t like to micromanage, and that approach has worked well for certain employees, but I think that I’ve been too hands-off for others’ working style, and it’s led to me not seeing problems until it’s too late. I’d like to find some middle ground and develop a better system for privately tracking expectations I set or deadlines that I give to people I supervise. Up until now, some employees have met the deadlines of their own accord. Others have blown through the deadlines, and I didn’t have follow up with them until they had already been missed.

    My workplace doesn’t have a standardized method for project management, and I’m working to introduce Trello within my sphere of control. Some of this problem may be resolved by having transparent shared tracking of open projects and the tasks associated with them so that employees aren’t expected to stand up those systems on their own. But I’d still like to have something that gives an employee-level perspective on performance that lives outside of shared systems for my own reference.

    (a) what information is most important to track in that kind of system and (b) what tools/software do you use? I’m leaning towards a Onenote document where I track big picture deadlines, details about employees that they share with me (e.g. preferred learning format), and any open ‘issues’ or goals for the employee.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      What kind of business are you in? Repeatable short tasks need a different kind of tracking than longer, more customized projects, which require something altogether different from things like software development or scientific research.

      Reply ↓
      1. myceliyum*

        I’m in local government. There are a lot of repeatable short tasks, which I think I have a handle on, and a number of longer, customized projects that are different enough from each other that it’s impossible to standardize a process.

        I’ve started by making a template that has a lot of checklists that *might* apply to a given project and we cull what’s not needed as we develop the structure and timeline.

        Reply ↓
    2. ferrina*

      It depends a lot on what your team does. Some things I’ve found that help:

      -Every project has a project plan with milestones and deadlines. This can be a word doc or a Trello description or whatever, but it needs to be the same format across the entire team and every. single. project. has one. You need to have the Objective (why you are doing this project), Project Lead (i.e., the person on your team responsible for driving it forward), the Stakeholders (who is this project ultimately for), Contributors (i.e., anyone else working on the project, especially if there is anyone outside of your team), and a basic timeline.
      -There is one master calendar that everyone can see and update with their projects. It doesn’t belong to just you, even though you are the one that will be looking at it the most.
      – Weekly 1:1s. During this time, check in with every project that the person is working on. Is it on track? Are there hurdles you can help remove? Do they need an extra person for a little bit? If you are curious about a project, ask. Asking about a project isn’t being “micro-managing”. Often I ask about things because I’m curious about what my team is doing, or because I might have knowledge that could help them, or simply because I’m evaluating their work (because that’s my job as the manager). “Evaluate” doesn’t mean “criticize”. I’m giving praise to my team at least as often as I’m giving constructive criticism (“oh, I love how you visualized that” or “smart set up” or even “can you tell me why you gave this a longer timeline? Oh, because this client always drags their toes? oof, good to know.”) This can also help you more with your planning, and gives you more that you can brag about your people.

      And it sounds like you need to be more involved in what your people are doing. Being involved isn’t the same as micro-managing. Micro-managing means that you are requiring everything to be approved by you, you are controlling details that you don’t need to control, and usually you are hyper-critical. Being involved means that you are aware of what your team is working on, what their struggles are, whether or not you need to intervene in their challenges, what opportunities are coming up, and what skills and weaknesses everyone has (so you can support them/assign work to the best fit).

      Reply ↓
      1. myceliyum*

        This is really helpful, thank you– especially the distinction between being involved/micro-managing. For context, I’ve taken over a department with a work culture of minimal oversight. Project tracking for long-term complex projects was handled with a legal pad on one person’s desk, plus whatever information they kept in their head or email inbox. I have support from above for the changes I want to make but not much guidance. I’ve been figuring things out as I go and trying to scale up what works for me personally to something that will function a team level, and I think we’re finally in a position where I can actually get buy-in from everyone on my team for any changes.

        I would say that I am aware of what my team is working on in a broad sense and I help them map out the steps of a project and identify internal/external stakeholders. Where I’ve fallen short is after that I step back and I’ve relied on them to tell me when they are struggling. With the self-starters/self-aware I think that approach has worked well enough but I want a more resilient system that doesn’t rely on every team member operating the same way. In the cases where employees didn’t have the perspective to see that they were behind, or didn’t want to call attention to it, I wasn’t aware until things fell behind enough that there were external consequences.

        I’ve written a lot but I don’t think I actually have another question here– it was just really helpful to reflect and piece this all together, so thanks.

        Reply ↓
    3. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      the #1 thing that I’ve found fixes the problems you’ve described is written repeat-backs after 1:1’s. Have each staff member summarize action items and decisions in an email immediately after your calls. Look at it and identify/correct any points of misalignment. Then, in your next (hopefully weekly or bi-weekly) check-in, if there’s anything in the written repeat-back that you haven’t already seen get resolved, ask for an update.

      this both keeps responsibility with the staff member for tracking it and gives you a no-longer-than-two-weeks intervention opportunity if things go off track. Anything they didn’t meet, you have an on-the-spot minor accountability conversation (“what happened?” and their “what are you doing about it” gets captured in the written repeat-back). When it becomes a pattern, now you have several weeks’ of documented interventions that you can refer back to.

      I flag all the repeat-backs each week in my Outlook, then after each meeting the following week I check them off and move them to a folder, flagging the new one as it comes in. You could also save them in one-note/a project management tool/whatever you use to track everything else you work on if that works better for you.

      Reply ↓
  75. Need Advice ASAP*

    I apologize, as this is long. But, I have to make a decision ASAP.

    I work for Teapot Inc. I am part of the Teapot Creative Team, specifically a Junior Painter. I have been in this role for six years with great reviews and great rapport inside and outside of my direct department. For four of those years, I have been asking about how to advance to become a Senior Painter. It has been a frustrating cycle of (1) ask, (2) manager/supervisor begins “looking into” the steps as outlined by previous Senior Painter job descriptions, (3) manager/supervisor gets promoted, (4) I start over.

    My most recent supervisor is actually trying to move things along (I do believe this). However, they say that Teapot Inc., particularly the HR side, moves very slow. This is true. Because of the location of Teapot Inc., the company can get away with this because people have few options (think big employer in rural America). There is currently no timeline that can be given to me re:becoming a Senior Painter, even though my supervisor agrees I do the work of that role already.

    All of this is annoying enough, but it’s complicated by the fact that of all the Teapot Painters, I am the only one who WANTS to stay long term. It is clear the other painters have one foot out of the door, either due to impending retirement or cutting hours to focus on entrepreneurial endeavors. They keep giving me more and more from the other Painters because my work is of quality, but they won’t invest in me in a “real” way – aka title and paygrade.

    I am at a crossroads where I could apply for another job within Teapot Inc. I am afraid the only way to actually advance is to switch departments, despite not wanting to.

    The pros are that I could stay with the company (benefits are stellar and that does factor into not just leaving outright) and the minimum pay bump I would receive would be $11,000. Additionally, because most of Teapot Inc. is engineering roles, which I’m not qualified for, chances to transfer within the company don’t come up super often. And, I’d be lying if I didn’t admit I’d like to prove a point that if you wait too long, you lose out on talented, trained teammates.

    The con (and it’s a big one) is that I genuinely enjoy being a painter and do not think I would enjoy this new role. It’s more of a strategy role, than a creative one. I truly believe I could do it justice and continue to perform at a high standard, but I don’t think I’d “like” it persay.

    So, what advice do you have? Do I apply and potentially take a role so that I can stop screaming into a void? Or, do I wait it out because I like painting, even though I feel undervalued in my current role due to lack of investment in my growth?

    Other notes that might be helpful: (1) No, I don’t think my department could counteroffer to keep me. (2) My current supervisor, their supervisor, and the head honcho supervisor have all been at Teapot Inc. about the same time as me, give or take a few months, but they have each moved up at least two times. Mobility has been made available to them in supervisory and nonsupervisory roles, compounding the frustration. (3) Discrimination is not a factor, as we all have similar demographics.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      Do you have concrete evidence that switching departments will actually make it easier to advance, or is it just a hope? Because if HR is still going to slow-walk everything they can no matter what, I think I’d stay put, push back on taking on other people’s jobs without a corresponding raise as much as you can, and keep an eye out for external opportunities, rather than take a short-term improvement that leaves you stuck in a role you don’t want long-term where you still can’t negotiate for better.

      Reply ↓
      1. Need Advice ASAP*

        I have concrete evidence that switching would advance me monetarily. We have very clear, publicized payscales, and the minimum raise I would get is $11,000. The new position would be a paygrade two above what I currently am. I am not looking to advance into management for at least five years due to life circumstances and really wanting to be in the best place I can be when I do take on a management role.

        Reply ↓
        1. MsM*

          Okay, but is that extra $11,000 annually worth a job you don’t enjoy nearly as much as your current one if it’s the only pay bump you’re going to get until you either switch departments yet again or finally get out of there?

          Reply ↓
    2. ferrina*

      Don’t apply to a job you don’t want unless your need for money outweighs your career goals.

      You absolutely need to be looking for jobs outside your current company, because your current company is low-balling you. Intentionally or not, they are not paying you your worth. Look for a job that you will both enjoy and pays you market value. It may take a while in this current economy, but it sounds like you are mostly happy where you are at. That puts you in a good position for a job search- you can turn down a job that is a bad fit and remain at a job where you are half-happy.

      Reply ↓
      1. Need Advice ASAP*

        This is a very good point. However, it’s not that my company isn’t necessarily paying me market value. I actually don’t know if I could go elsewhere and make the same doing what I do, without taking on direct reports.

        It’s more that my company isn’t paying me the value that they’ve established. They’ve established a Junior Painter makes X and a Senior Painter makes Y. As a Junior Painter, I am making X but doing the job that should be paid Y.

        Also, there are reasons I don’t look elsewhere. A 2 to 1 retirement match is the main reason. They put in 2x what we do.

        Reply ↓
    3. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      I have been in your situation so many times in my 25-year-career (all with one company.) Once a company figures out you aren’t a flight risk, they really drag their heels on advancement. The only times I have been successful getting promoted was to be bullish with my management (force them to create a promotion plan for me IN WRITING so I could share it with new management, if necessary; bring it up in every one-on-one, etc.) I had to wait so frustratingly long for promotions that I deserved and earned (and yes, I’m still bitter about it years later!)

      BUT – Liking your job is so, so important as well. There were times I could have left one department for another, but if I liked my job and the people I worked with I tended to stay put – even if getting a promotion was taking frustratingly long. If I could tell I wouldn’t like another position or department as much, I didn’t go. Fair compensation and job title is important, but so is not dreading coming into work in the morning and liking your co-workers. Only you can decide what is most important to you.

      Reply ↓
      1. Need Advice ASAP*

        Thank you for this! I have been working on getting a promotion plan in writing for those four years – have never gotten one. A lot of it is out of my control and even, at times, my supervisors. It’s so, so frustrating.

        Reply ↓
    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Seconding the suggestion that you double check that a department switch would indeed your advancement prospects. You said HR is notoriously slow, and I’m guessing that wouldn’t change just because you’re moving to a different team.

      “It has been a frustrating cycle of (1) ask, (2) manager/supervisor begins “looking into” the steps as outlined by previous Senior Painter job descriptions, (3) manager/supervisor gets promoted, (4) I start over. ”

      I think this is actually what you need to focus on. There’s no reason why, if your manager/supervisor is getting promoted, the process necessarily has to start over every time unless there’s a specific rule about a manager having to be in their role for X amount of time to observe the person who wants a promotion. They’re still in the company! They can transition these discussion points to your new manager/supervisor!

      I’d also consider chatting with HR about it, framing it with how you’re eager to grow at the company but each time you’ve raised the issue with successive managers, it falls off everyone’s radar when the manager gets promoted. What do they recommend for making sure everyone stays on top of things if your manager is changing so frequently? You shouldn’t be punished for your manager’s finding success.

      Reply ↓
      1. Need Advice ASAP*

        I have also tried the HR route. They point me back to my supervisor. They say that the supervisor needs to start the process by getting the job description of Senior Painter up to date (they haven’t promoted anyone to Senior Painter in 7 years, so it is considered out of date). Only then can it be officially determined if a Junior Painter qualifies to be a Senior Painter.

        So, that’s kind of why the process gets shut down when a manager/supervisor gets promoted. Because they will be in the middle of updating/getting that approved (which takes months because HR is focusing on the 30+ positions they have completely open), and then they get promoted. Then, the next supervisor has to pick up where they left off … but too often the former supervisor doesn’t really see that as something super important to pass along (because I am doing the work of a Senior which is what they care about … not my pay or title), so they don’t even know to take up the fight until I mention it to them.

        Reply ↓
    5. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      You say you could do the new job well. Unless you would actively dislike the work or the people, I’d take it, providing the raise is from Day 1 – and not just promised for later.
      I always worked for money, not love of work; passion can bugger off , so YMMV. Think what you would do with the extra money. This opportunity may not come again.

      Sounds like you could have less stress, as you’d no longer be agitating pointlessly for growth as a Teapot Painter and no longer feeling exploited. Also might be less overworked.

      Reply ↓
  76. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

    Company went through some “strongly recommended” early retirements and then some layoffs earlier this month. Everything was budget-related, not performance-related. We had a team meeting where the three early retirements on my team were celebrated, and the three layoffs were not even mentioned. No difference between these people except for age. Really makes one wonder why bother showing loyalty to a company when you could be sent off with party and a gift and a round of applause, or led out the door by security and never mentioned again. Oh, and it’s a complete tossup how it will go. Ugh, just had to vent.

    Reply ↓
    1. Bitte Meddler*

      Oh, yeah, NEVER show loyalty to a company. Your loyalty is to yourself.

      You have a business relationship with your employer and loyalty isn’t in there *at all*.

      You perform certain tasks in exchange for compensation for only as long as that business arrangement is beneficial to both of you.

      You get a better job offer? You’re out of there with no regrets.

      They encounter financial hardships and need to reduce headcount? They escort you out of there with no regrets.

      Reply ↓
  77. A perfectly normal-size space bird*

    Let’s talk bad IT security. Okay, so part of this is me grousing but it never fails to amaze me how companies can implement policies that significantly hamper productivity in the name of security without it actually being secure.

    tl;dr: New IT security policy means everyone below my level basically pinky swears that they won’t share any info as they work on an open system while my level and above are hampered to the point where we’re shelling out hundreds in non-reimbursable expenses and insecurely emailing critical documents to ourselves just to be able to do our jobs at a basic level.

    —-

    Last year, my employer implemented a new policy for all remote employees that non-employer issued computers and devices can no longer access company resources outside of the virtual desktop firewall. There was a transition period it kicked in fully two months ago. Sounds reasonable, right? After all, it’s important to secure proprietary documents and privileged communications.

    Well, it only applies to employees at my level and above. It does not apply to employees below my level. The employees at the level right below mine have access to the same proprietary and secured communication I do…but not only are they not required to be behind the firewall, all their resources are accessible outside of it. And the main browser-based proprietary software we use by employees of all levels is explicitly excluded from the firewall. Said software contains the end results of all the other work and is the primary information the company doesn’t want leaked. Like, the documents behind the firewall aren’t near as critical as those that aren’t behind the firewall.

    All the employees below my level are scattered around the world, working from home. They’re not supposed to work anywhere others can see or hear any of their work but I’ve seen everything from people working in their living room while other people wander in the background to employees working from a diner booth without headphones. And the same critical finalized documents that I’m only allowed to access behind the firewall are shared on the open software as pdfs that can be downloaded and printed.

    The new firewall system also is severely hampering productivity. It’s completely screwed up the audio for meetings and they can’t fix it because instead of using something that works, they’re using patched open source software that they kludged into the existing system. I can no longer use my phone for email or Teams unless I download their proprietary portal app that also allows them to remotely wipe my phone for any reason, including logging in from mobile data, which for me, is a nonstarter, given how many times I have to do it (on the plus side, this means it’s harder for them to get ahold of me outside of hours?). My colleagues, bosses, and I have to work both inside and outside the firewall and the proprietary virtual desktop hijacks all monitors into full screen mode that can’t be turned off and there’s no way to switch to the regular computer desktop without closing the virtual desktop and losing all communication access. This means most of us have had to purchase second computers and a maze of HDMI switches to quickly switch monitors between computers. No equipment has ever been provided by the company, we’re all using personal devices, and the company does not reimburse.

    Also, because external media has been disabled in the virtual desktop, the proprietary browser based software can only be accessed outside the firewall, and our email and cloud storage can only be accessed inside the firewall, the only way to get documents back and forth is to email them between our personal email address and work email address.

    But, you know, IT security is important to the company.

    Reply ↓
      1. A perfectly normal-size space bird*

        It’s impressive how my employer has managed to make it both more insecure and more unusable than before the switch.

        Reply ↓
    2. No Control*

      My company’s IT production systems do not have different levels of user privileges. There is no hierarchy that goes from Super User to Admin to Read/Write to View Only.

      The only access is Super User.

      Which means that the sales platform — which is the whole reason my company exists — can be taken down by anyone who is fumbling their way through pulling data from the system that their particular department needs.

      My company sells itself on being cutting edge technology but they never once thought that maaaaaybe the folks who just need “Read Only” access shouldn’t be able to make changes to master data tables and the links between them.

      Reply ↓
  78. AvatarMetal*

    My employer docks bonuses when people use FMLA. Doesn’t sound right, but HR says it’s not fair to people who don’t use FMLA to get the same bonus. Is it legal? Never mind the whole “no one deserves their entire bonus” spiel.

    Reply ↓
      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I looked it up on the US Dept of labor website and it depends on what the bonus is for.

        “Equivalent pay includes a bonus or other payment made to employees. Whether an employee on FMLA leave is entitled to a bonus depends on whether employees on other similar types of leave receive the bonus. For example, if an employee is substituting accrued annual leave and other employees on annual leave receive the bonus, the employee on FMLA leave should receive the bonus as well. However, if a bonus or other payment is based on the achievement of a specified goal such as hours worked, products sold or perfect attendance, and the employee has not met the goal due to FMLA leave, then the payment may be denied, unless otherwise paid to employees on an equivalent non-FMLA leave status.”

        Reply ↓
    2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      So I put some info below with the link to the labor dept but I think this sounds sketchy. What are the bonuses for? If you get bonuses for attendance, like if you had no call outs, then yes they can withhold the bonus. But if the bonus is more general like the company exceeded sales then they cannot withhold the bonus. Can you explain what the bonuses are for?

      Reply ↓
      1. AvatarMetal*

        We get bonuses in years the company makes a profit. It’s supposedly a profit sharing thing for all employees.

        Reply ↓
  79. HiddenT*

    I’ve become completely demoralized about job searching. It seems like even finding job listings is impossible, because all the job sites are full of spam and scams. I’m trying to figure out how to leave my industry and enter a new one, but the new one (writing/editing) is essentially “under attack” by the AI/LLM nonsense that all the tech CEOs keep pushing, and I feel like I don’t have any other skills that would translate to another industry. It doesn’t help that my industry is specialized enough that a lot of people don’t really understand what I even do. I’ve tried working with a job coach before, I’ve tried letting people know I’m looking, and I just feel so hopeless about ever escaping/finding a job I don’t despise. My current one is the least crappy of the ones I’ve had since I entered my current industry, but that honestly isn’t saying much because the bar is in hell.

    Any advice to deal with what feels like a hopeless cause would be helpful.

    Reply ↓
    1. BYOD Blues*

      I can only say the last time I tried to pivot, I realized that the writing business was SO over-saturated with applicants (and now with AI it must be worse) that it was far, far more lucrative for me to look at the other skills I had even though I didn’t think those were very valuable either. I guess a new English graduate enters the marketplace every 20 seconds, or at least that’s how employers seem to treat it. If you are actually interested in AI there may be more openings that are tech-adjacent there, or in my case I focused on the thing I had done the most writing about (a niche science I didn’t think had much career potential) and focused on that.

      Reply ↓
      1. HiddenT*

        Honestly, I’d rather do editing than writing, but I don’t want to do any AI editing or prompting at all. Editing and QA is where the bulk of my skills lie that are transferable to another industry. I *technically* have project management experience as well, but that’s part of what I need to get away from, because I find that aspect of my current industry extremely stressful and demoralizing.

        Reply ↓
        1. MsM*

          Is your current role technical in nature? If so, technical or proposal writing might be easier to break into, since your current skills would be more transferrable, and it’s one of those things where AI not understanding the context can be a big problem.

          Reply ↓
          1. HiddenT*

            Not really. There are some technical aspects, but they vary wildly from company to company (some companies use industry-specific tech a lot, some don’t use it at all). That’s something I’d probably have to be trained in. I’m confident I could do it with training, there aren’t many things I can’t pick up with training, but getting the training is the thing.

            Reply ↓
    2. ferrina*

      Instead of writing, what if you think about “Communications” as a skill? There’s a lot of roles where comms play a vital part. If you have any project management experience, that will help too.

      A couple things that helped me:
      1) mix up your applications between things that match your experience and things that just sound cool to you. You know you probably won’t get the cool job, but it can be nice to know that you put that possibility into the universe.
      2) invest in hobbies, and volunteer for the weird projects at work. This will build your skill set that you can fall back on, and you will have different knowledge to make yourself a stronger candidate. Plus it’s easier to job-search when you feel like there’s an up-side to what you are doing now.
      3) Buy a lottery ticket every time you turn in an application. This always helped me, because I figured I was eventually going to get lucky one way or another

      Reply ↓
    3. Sherm*

      As I like to say, if your rate of success in job searching is 0.0001%, then congratulations, you have the job. You just need one yes. I’ve seen in my experience and in those of people i know that job searching can seem like it’s endless, until one day, poof, without much fanfare, suddenly the job materializes.

      Try to do a lot of networking. That could be a pleasant counterbalance to dealing with the murkiness of cyberspace.

      Reply ↓
    4. Hlao-roo*

      For avoiding “spam and scams” on job sites, I usually start a search by browsing on Indeed (or similar large job site), but when I find a listing I like, I find it on the actual company’s website and apply through there. It does add a few steps to the process, but it gives me more confidence that I’m applying to a real job at a real company. I typically apply to large companies, so this advice might not carry over to all places. Some smaller companies/organizations might not host any of their listings on their own website.

      Reply ↓
  80. Three Cats in a Trenchcoat*

    Has anyone dealt with working while being on a grand jury?

    I got called for potential federal grand jury service, and I’m really worried this will eat all of my PTO for the available future :/ The summons just came so I haven’t had a chance to discuss with work, but they don’t like to give me an actual lunch break during clinic so I doubt they will be generous

    Reply ↓
    1. Lady Lessa*

      Do you know if there are any guidelines for normal jury duty? I think that grand jury duty is for a longer period of time, but it is not continuous.

      Good luck, and if the guidelines are similar to normal jury, you might be excused for outside knowledge, since you seem to be in health care.

      Reply ↓
    2. Anon for this*

      I’m not American and assume you are, so I just want to double check if you’re looking for advice on how employment works while you’re spending every day in court, or are you looking for specific advice for grand juries?

      I served on a regular jury a number of years ago and it lasted five weeks. During jury selection, potential jurors had the opportunity to demonstrate that serving on the jury would demonstrate hardship, e.g. they can’t afford the financial hit, they have childcare responsibilities, etc. and the judge would decide to exempt them or not. It was not an expectation that people would use their PTO to cover off the jury duty, because that’s incredibly unrealistic.

      I was lucky that my workplace actually just keeps paying you regularly during your service, so there was no financial penalty in me participating. The caveat is that if you do end up getting paid (juries don’t get paid until X days have passed), then the amount you get paid goes back to the company, which seems fair enough since I was paid way more than what the jury amount was.

      In terms of getting my work done, I was lucky that my job is very self-directed so I could temporary shelve any major projects. I did a few hours here or there to catch up on urgent issues, and checked my email every day as well, but other than that I was surprised that it didn’t impact my work too much.

      I will say that jury duty is exhausting work. Concentrating that hard and listening to people all day while trying to maintain a neutral appearance was really tiring work, so I’d temper any expectations that you’ll be able to go to jury duty and then put in a whole bunch of hours post-court. It’s not feasible, and even if you get a half-day of court here or there, getting anything done afterwards is tough.

      Reply ↓
      1. Apex Mountain*

        A Grand Jury is far from exhausting work, at least when I was on one 30+ years ago. You barely need to pay attention because it’s kind of a rigged game – there’s a reason for the cliche about a grand jury indicting a ham sandwich!

        Reply ↓
        1. Rocky*

          That is an absurd statement. You should be paying attention! Please don’t undermine the judicial system with statements like this. (FWIW, I was on a grand jury for 18 months. If we hadn’t paid attention, some people would have been let off who shouldn’t have been, and vice versa.)

          Reply ↓
      2. Three Cats in a Trenchcoat*

        Well, as a psychiatrist “concentrating that hard and listening to people all day while trying to maintain a neutral appearance” is basically second nature now, so I have that going for me (though you are right, it is tiring!)

        Reply ↓
    3. Box of Kittens*

      I had to do grand jury a couple years ago right after I started a new job. In my area, the judge was really lenient and basically let anyone off if they had any remotely-genuine-sounding excuse, so it’s possible they may let you go on the first day. If not, you’re honestly probably just at the mercy of your state law and company policy unfortunately. Make sure you find and read your company’s policy and your state laws when you let HR know. My HR department was not used to dealing with a grand jury and I had to do some pushing back with mine about whether they were required to pay me or not.

      Reply ↓
      1. Three Cats in a Trenchcoat*

        That’s reassuring. I think I was panicking out of a place of having never been called for this kind of service before (once a week for 9 months!) and a general lack of trust in my administration at work. I should reach out to HR and try to clarify state laws as well, and depending on the answers I may have a good argument for the impact service would have on me.

        It is very frustrating that something that we expect of a good citizenry is so difficult – I think I would actually be a good juror, if it wasn’t going to make my clinic scheduling an absolute nightmare.

        Reply ↓
  81. Cheesus Christ*

    Did I royally screw myself over with my career switch or is everyone equally having an anxious and horrible time? Any thoughts on what could be a better career path going forward?

    I’m a first-gen college student from a poor family and had no idea what I was doing in college. Ended up with a generic degree and was planning towards a healthcare career via grad school. Then the pannini happened and I had to take care of my sick parents, so I gave up on the healthcare goal. Did a complete 180 and ended up as a Software Engineer in a tech company which I do enjoy. But the past two years of layoff scares and seeing everyone panicking about how the tech field is screwed has been horrible for my mental health.

    Honestly, I just want a job that I can get paid decently in and has good stability. Should I go back to trying to break into healthcare or are there other fields I should consider? Like a trade job? Accounting? Stay in tech and ride out the craziness? Sorry for the huge anxious rant, I’m just at a loss sometimes and hate the feeling of helplessness.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      If you like what you’re doing, I’d ride it out. Maybe look for tech jobs in healthcare or other fields that don’t seem as volatile as whatever you’re doing now.

      Reply ↓
    2. ferrina*

      Do you have a healthcare background? Or would you be going back to school to get that background? Are you currently employed?

      If you are currently employed and are anxious about being unemployed, unfortunately, anyone can be unemployed at any time (at least in at-will situations). There isn’t really a field that is economy/disaster-proof, and this economy is particularly gnarly. If you are generally happy in your current field, why would you go into debt (I assume you’d need schooling) for another field that is notoriously high-stress? If you haven’t yet, talk to people that actually work in healthcare before you decide to commit to that. You don’t want to go from a situation where the economy makes you anxious to one where the day-to-day work makes you anxious.

      If you want to stay in tech but also in healthcare, there is a lot of overlap where tech contribute to healthcare. EMRs is an obvious one, but there’s also some really cool work being done to streamline insurance approvals and patient access to providers (telehealth and more). I’ve also seen some very interesting work around analyzing big data for trends in health conditions (both from medical records and from patient narratives through social media and other). There’s a lot of cool possibilities there!

      Reply ↓
    3. NoSuchBeast*

      Sorry, there’s no such thing as job security. Not in tech, not in healthcare, not in health IT, not anywhere. But especially not in tech. If you want real job security you need a time machine to take you back to the 50s.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    4. Bitte Meddler*

      Well, there’s one thing that software engineers and healthcare workers have in common: There will *always* be a need for them.

      Some companies may have over-hired during the Great Resignation and that’s balancing itself out right now but, other than teeny-tiny mom-and-pop operations, every single company needs the things a software engineer creates and manages.

      Hang in there and ride it out.

      If you do want to look into parlaying your current skills into a new job, take a look at becoming an IT Auditor. They’ve been in high demand for a very long time now, and I don’t see the demand lessening.

      Reply ↓
  82. Me, surprised but not really*

    I know there was a recent post about neurodivergence at work, and I bookmarked it for later perusal due to having an LD, but I have new information. Sorry if this is longish.

    Background: I had some problems in school as a child, and my mom took me to see a psychologist when I was about nine or so. I remember the doctor, the location, and the appointment, but I didn’t know what he said or talked about with her, and I have no records from it, nor does she.

    Recently I started a new job. My last job had very clearly delineated processes that were followed company-wide and were easy for me to learn and navigate. This one, a much larger company, does not. There is a general framework, but otherwise it’s much more loosey-goosey and varies based on project, PM, client, etc. I’ve been struggling with overwhelm far out of proportion to just learning a new job, and it occurred to me that there might be something more going on with me than just the LD. So I asked my mom if anyone had ever told her that I had ADHD, etc.

    She immediately said “Yes” with no hesitation. It was that one specialist, the one whose name neither of us can recall, and he described what she later recognized as Asperger syndrome. (She became a therapist years later and we both know it’s not called that anymore; this appointment was in the ’70s.) When she said that, a million things clicked into place and I suddenly understood why I was having so much trouble at work, and where some of the stuff I do actually comes from.

    My manager and I had an onboarding meeting, and she brought up something I had said that struck her (they were trying to give me some information I couldn’t absorb and I said my brain wasn’t working). This company has a robust DEI support network, so I took a chance and I told her. Y’all, her reaction could not have been more perfect and supportive. <3

    This is a big deal — it blew my mind, tbh. It's not actually actionable re accommodations unless I have documentation, which I don't — I will likely need to be retested. I'm unsure what to ask for, but I'm also not sure HOW to ask it (manager is open to adjustment regardless). Does anyone have any experience with autism at work prior to a formal accommodation process, and what helped you most in talking to your manager about communication and other needs?

    Reply ↓
    1. Nesprin*

      Start with your general practitioner doctor.
      Ask to be referred to psychology for testing for autism.
      (insert screams into the void about health insurance).
      Talk to psych and ask for testing for autism.
      Ask what support/therapy resources are available through your medical system.

      If you know you need something, put that on the list.
      Read job accommodation network for lists of accommodations you can ask for.
      If you know anyone else who has accommodations, ask them what helps. If not, go figure out who else could be a useful source of information in your network.

      Reply ↓
    2. Hillary*

      It’s still in my TBR pile, but How to ADHD by Jessica McCabe has been recommended to me.

      There are formal accommodations and informal accommodations. If you figure out a way that works better for you and your manager’s supportive, you can just go for it.

      You said you did well with clearly delineated processes. Is there a way to treat your new role as discovery/documentation processes within the general framework? Take the framework along with your knowledge of what’s always needed and turn it into almost a form to fill out.

      Reply ↓
      1. Me, surprised but not really*

        That’s what I’m trying to figure out, and what has been giving me so much trouble. I’m on one project where I literally don’t know what’s going on. The others are more like the ones I had before, but this one makes me want to run crying down the street. I’m going to have to talk to the project manager and ask him what he wants me to do and when.

        I did not go into the office at all this week. Partly because I had a dental appointment and phone calls to make that I didn’t want to do at work, but also because I just didn’t want to deal with transit.

        Reply ↓
    3. Hazel*

      Not but may I disrupt to say congrats, it sounds like you handled it great and your workplace sounds lovely! Maybe that’s all you need to say for now – to your manager, ‘you’ve been great, can we stay in touch and figure out where I might need support or if you think I’m not getting something?’

      There are always things people struggle with. It’s far better in my experience to say I’m struggling than to say I’m fine and fail.

      Reply ↓
      1. Me, surprised but not really*

        I hope it is. I was rapidly approaching a point where I did not want to even be there. I had to change jobs through no fault of my own, and aside from the difficulty adjusting, I was very much resenting that. Hopefully it will turn out to be better than I thought.

        I’ve always been scared to admit I was struggling. All my experience with my LD has taught me is that people don’t believe you or even care. That might be an older Gen X thing, but it does make it harder to ask for support.

        Reply ↓
  83. ResumeDunce*

    How important is it to use key words from the job description when applying to jobs? I see this advice a lot, especially when someone is talking about how to get past AI screeners – make sure to use the exact key words from the job description in your resume & cover letter. But copying those word for word makes me feel like I’m not talking about my experience in my own words and being insincere. Am I overthinking it or is there a balance I should be shooting for there? It also seems like a lot of work to change key words in my resume for every job I apply for. I need to be mass applying for jobs right now and that is exhausting enough!

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      I personally think this advice is overblown, but I’ve never worked in hiring so I don’t have a lot of insight into the process from the company side.

      I have one relative who is a manager in a state government position, and their state agency does not use AI screeners or keyword matches to sort through job applications. Sample size of one, of course, so take that for what it’s worth.

      For the US Federal Government, the advice is different, but in that case it’s not getting past AI screeners as much as it is knowing the rules of Federal hiring to create a good application/resume for that specific context.

      In the private sector, I’ve never worried about keyword matching and have had two successful job hunts in the past 7 years. In my (limited) opinion and experience, don’t worry about keyword matching at all.

      Reply ↓
    2. Antilles*

      I don’t think AI screening is anywhere near as prevalent as people think it is. I’ve never encountered it on either side and certainly not from the better firms in my industry.
      I would also note to take a close look at any of the people you’re seeing “talk about how to get past AI screeners”: The vast majority of those articles/videos/TikToks are from people who don’t actually hire others. They may be selling resume optimization services, job searching assistance, or resume reviews…but not actively out there hiring people for their firms.

      Reply ↓
    3. Policy Wonk*

      Even if not screened by AI, in the government the first screening of applications is done by HR professionals. They are very good at their job, but don’t really know the specifics of the position I am hiring for, so will pass to the hiring manager the resumes of people that have the right word strings but don’t have the experience I am seeking. This can also lead to the opposite – not passing on the resume of someone qualified who didn’t quote from the announcement. It seems most hiring managers I talk to have seen a case or two where someone actually acting in the position to be filled was deemed not qualified for their own job because they didn’t use the words HR was looking for.

      What I tell people who are navigating USAJobs is to use the exact words from the announcement, but then expand. So if the announcement says you must have experience in painting specialty teapots, your application says, “I have experience in painting specialty teapots as demonstrated by…” and then explain your experience/skill, mastery.

      Reply ↓
    4. stripey giraffe*

      I would use some of the relevant words in the job ad – not for AI screening, but for HR. So, for example if you’re an engineer who works with steel, you could talk about your project with 304L, and the manager would likely understand what you mean, but they would never see your resume because the HR person doesn’t know that 304L is steel. So, you could say: designed llama grooming tools with a variety of steels, including 304L, tool steel and ….

      Reply ↓
  84. So livid*

    My company (just over 150 employees) held an open enrollment meeting where they said they were doing “everything possible” including “drastic measures” to lower our health insurance costs. Which did come down a little, but not much. About $50-75 a year.
    That week they laid off 5 employees. Good employees. Beloved employees. All fired “for performance” which has left coworkers and even their direct managers baffled.
    Until someone pointed out that of these 5 employees:
    2 had cancer this year
    1 had pancreatitis and spent 3 weeks in the ICU
    1 had a major heart attack + bypass surgery
    1 had twins born early and spend over a month in the NICU
    All of these employees had the company sharing GoFundMe accounts, asking people to donate PTO, etc. so everyone knows their health issues. I cannot think of anyone who had a major health issue this year who did not get fired that week. Certainly no one the company supported like those 5. Neither can anyone else I’ve spoken to.
    I’m so angry. Not sure what, if anything, I can do. The rumors are flying. HR is denying. But this can’t be a coincidence, can it?

    Reply ↓
    1. Panicked*

      They may have a self-funded plan, which could be drained by those claims (not sure of the size of your org, so that’s only speculation). They *should* have a stop-loss plan in place for that scenario though. If everyone was screaming for lower medical costs and then the five highest users of the plan were terminated, it’s an easy line to draw between the two, whether or not that was the real reason. Not a good look for your company at all.

      Reply ↓
  85. Gaia*

    Just did the annual sexual harassment training. During a portion discussing stalking behavior, the victim reported the harassment to HR. Later, her coworker admitted she had been stalked/harassed by the same person earlier and didn’t report. She blamed herself for the creep harassing the new victim. The training went on to say not reporting enables the behavior to continue.

    This seems…. problematic at best. But I’m open to being wrong. Obviously, ideally all harassment would be reported and handled appropriately right away. But we all know there are many reasons people may not feel safe reporting. Anything (even hinting at) blaming them for continued harassment feels really gross.

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      Yeah, this is hard. Because on one hand…yeah. Not reporting does mean that a person is more likely to get away with it. But on the other, there are a TON of different reasons why someone can’t or won’t report, and it’s unfair on many levels to make the person being harassed the one who has to do all the work and suffer all the consequences for someone else being a jerk.

      I’d have liked it more like this, personally: “Ultimately the fault is the harasser/creep, because they are the ones making the choice to be creepy. For everyone else, not reporting enables the behavior, so it’s on all of us to make workplaces a safe place to hold people accountable. Don’t make it so that the person being harassed has to be the one reporting the harassment. Anonymous reporting is at Y link. Managers, give your reports and their reports a safe way to do so.”

      Reply ↓
    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      Yeah, better phrasing would have been something like “there may be many reasons why someone would not feel comfortable reporting harassment, but here are various methods by which you may do so, and you can choose which feels most comfortable to you. Reporting harassment can help prevent future harassment of the reporting person and of others.”

      Reply ↓
    3. Qwerty*

      I think I watched this same training. Did it have a couple of “choose your own adventure” type questions? The one I did had a couple options on what to do – I explored all of them and the history of stalking only came up in the one where the victim hid it as long as possible.

      I had the same uneasy reaction, but after thinking about it more, I’m ok with how the video handled it. It is realistic for the first victim to blame herself after learning (1) that there is a second victim and (2) that their company would actually have acted on it in a way that protected the victim. Keep in mind that they did not show (in mine at least) the second victim being mad at the first victim for not reporting…which is also a common and realistic occurance.

      What the video was trying to show is that by not saying anything to anyone, you end up helping cover up the problem. If someone doesn’t go to HR, going to someone else in the workplace not only helps, it means there is someone to back up the story if it ever comes up in the future. Victims tend to feel alone and think it has something to do with them – if you realize the stalker will probably just find another object in the future, it makes it less personal and more of a *him* problem then something *you* did to encourage him.

      I’ve usually found it is easier to act on behalf of others than for ourselves. I have assisted in either the reporting or investigative process a couple times, and often the driver was concern for the behavior expanding to someone else (usually a more junior colleague or a theoretical new hire).

      Reply ↓
  86. Chirpy*

    I found a job listing for an organization I’d like to work with, but it’s an executive assistant job instead of what I’m actually qualified for, and also limited term with ZERO benefits. It’s barely a living wage, but still at least $5/hr more than I currently make. I guess it might get me in the door (the position I’m looking for there is rarely open), but it just feels like a step way back into a much less stable situation. (I finally got 3 weeks of vacation at my retail job, and at least I have terrible insurance? This job would have nothing, and frankly, now seems like a terrible time to be trying to get my own insurance.) Is it even worth applying?

    (also super frustrating, because a recent report showed fully half the jobs in my city do not pay enough for a single person to not be rent burdened.)

    Reply ↓
    1. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      do you actually want to do the work of an EA, and have the skills for it? I would not count on an EA role being a foot in the door for another role, and it’s definitely not the kind of job you want to struggle through if it’s a bad match (because your struggles will be highly visible to someone with probably a lot of influence at the company).

      Reply ↓
      1. Chirpy*

        Technically, yeah I probably could do it, but honestly it’s the sort of thing that I don’t think I’d be great at just because I’m too much of an introvert and I’d be exhausted keeping up.

        Reply ↓
    2. Strive to Excel*

      Probably not.

      $5 more an hour + zero benefits is likely to not actually help you much, since you’re getting *some* benefits, and those are very expensive to self-insure. Even the terrible insurance.

      Hugs to you, that’s wildly frustrating.

      Reply ↓
  87. Pink Geek*

    Open Office Hours?!?

    My grand boss and great-grand boss have “open office hours” once a month. They have trouble getting people to attend and encourage us to show up without any specific agenda.

    This seems like a good relationship building opportunity for me but I don’t want to show up totally unprepared either. What kind of topics /questions should I be prepared to discuss?

    Reply ↓
    1. ferrina*

      Some things to ask about:
      – general company strategies (especially if there is something that has been recently announced that you are curious about)
      – an ongoing challenge. This can be something that you’ve already solved, but that you’d like to see if anyone else had more experience about.
      – if you don’t really know them, get to know them better!Especially if you are early career, where it’s expected that you will have questions about the industry. Take a look at their LinkedIn, and see if there is any experience that you are curious about. If it feels awkward, you can say “If it’s alright, I was actually curious about learning more about your previous experience. I saw that you did X, and I’d really like to hear more about it.” Make sure you have a couple follow up questions.

      Reply ↓
    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      “encourage us to show up without any specific agenda”

      I’d wager that’s exactly why they’re having trouble getting people to attend! It might help if they shared the kinds of things they were happy to chat about, i.e. you don’t want to show up and say “I think we should start implementing this accounting principle” if they really meant something like “Come talk about career development” or whatever. I think if people aren’t attending, they could also come up with topics themselves as kind of a low key monthly series, e.g. “This month we’re talking about taking work/life balance” or whatever.

      Anyway, that’s a them problem! For you, I don’t think you should go for the sake of going just because it’s a relationship building opportunity. Their time is valuable and you probably want to take advantage of the time they are willing to share, but I think you also really need to think about what you concretely hope to get from this relationship. Are you looking for mentorship? Career development? Networking?

      Reply ↓
  88. Question for Engineers*

    If you are an aeronautical engineer, what advice would you have for someone looking for work in this market? Thank you.

    Reply ↓
  89. Just no*

    I’m a manager, and people management is the hardest thing I have ever done. I want everyone to know that not every single little thing needs to come to the manager. I am exhausted by petty disagreements that don’t amount to anything, word policing, generally thinking the worst of co-workers, coming straight to me without talking to the other person first, and hand-holding everyone. I DO NOT want to be a micro-manager.

    Reply ↓
    1. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      That would drive me bonkers as well. I’m not sure if you’re looking for advice, but one thing I’d always ask my kids when they would come to me with petty problems is, “Try two things to solve it yourself and if it doesn’t work, tell me what two things you tried.” If they came back I’d ask things like, “Why do you think it didn’t work? What else do you think you could try?” In short, I’d refuse to solve their problem and make it annoying to come to me with their problems, knowing I’d just pass it back to them. Maybe you have to treat your employees like toddlers. ;)

      Reply ↓
    2. ferrina*

      It sounds like these folks are either used to a micro-manager, or trying to stir up drama.

      If it’s a case of the former, you can retrain them by coaching them to take the action that you want them to take. As Mermaid of the Lunacy said, this can feel like you’re treating them like children, but these educational techniques are the same for kids and adults. Ask questions to prompt them to think about it in the way you want, and set some guidelines about what is/isn’t okay behavior/where they should try to resolve it themselves first. This is especially fun when they come to ‘tattle’ on someone and you say “Okay, what did they do when you said [thing that the tattler should have said]?” Of course, you know they didn’t actually say that, but because you are framing that as the obvious course of action, they’ll be a bit embarrassed and mumble something and learn their lesson (mild embarrassment is an excellent teacher).

      If it’s a drama-mongerer, that can take a bit more finesse, since politics can come into play. Approach would depend on the details.

      But don’t worry about being a micro-manager. If you aren’t a micro-manager, they can’t force you to be. You can choose to delegate things, and you can delegate the first few attempts at problem solving to the team members who actually need to solve the problem.

      Reply ↓
    3. Busy Middle Manager*

      This is why I left it. My career wasn’t that bad, but it felt like herding cats. WFH was the nail-in-the-coffin for me because I got sick of arguing with more junior staff that yes, they were indeed busy working from home, but busy productive and productive at key things. I spent three years living in the dichotomy of everyone saying WFH is so great and productivity was up, while having to work more than ever chasing people down, both above and below and laterally, having to wait days to “have a call” when we used to do things spontaneously, and picking up the slack when everyone went MIA.

      Other challenges include: people saying they want growth/stretch assignments, then getting mad at you when they drop the ball, and you point it out

      Not being able to provide solid living wages even if you fight to get raises above inflation. Low salaries are just so entrenched I needed more than one voice/one company to fight for more

      Herding cats: one employee was inclined to solve the most random problems outside of his area. I’d herd him back then find out the next week he got pulled into some other random department and didn’t say “no.” Another truly believed all of the reddit “I make $200k working 2 hours a day” stories and felt like he needed so much extra attention to make up for his perceived “worse” situation

      Upper management dropping the ball: nothing like getting people working hard, to then have a very senior person sabotage a project or show low work ethic or drop the ball in a way that made employees feel like there was no point in their work

      Reply ↓
    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      Sounds like the culture in your workplace is a challenging one. Are there courses/workshops in communication and conflict management that you could recommend to your reports? And also, please BE CLEAR with what they should be doing. “You need to talk to Wakeen first directly.” Some hand-holding up front to clearly inform them of correct processes might make it easier later on. But if the culture is really so bad that everyone is sniping at everyone else, it might be a problem with the workplace, and you might need to go elsewhere to be free from it.

      Reply ↓
  90. Freelance Bass*

    I’ve been working on a book pitch (kids activity book) and am ready to start reaching out to literary agents. Should I wait to send queries until after the holidays, or can I start my search in early December?

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I don’t work in publishing so maybe this is bad advice, but I would start your search now but send the queries in January. We’re already in the “loop back in the New Year” phase of the calendar year, and I can’t imagine anyone being enthusiastic about reading pitches right now.

      Reply ↓
    2. WestSideStory*

      Research now. If in U.S., look up and subscribe to Publisher’s Lunch. Back editions can show you who’s buying what.

      Pitch in January.

      Reply ↓
  91. rob m.*

    I honestly just want to vent and maybe get some advice on this one:

    why is it that it seems like these job descriptions are lying about where they actually want me to work?

    blurb says it’s in location A. job description says it’s in location B. interview mentions it will be at locations B or C, and says those locations are where they’d expect me to work.

    Location C was never mentioned in the job description, and trust me, I checked. this has happened to me no less thatn three times now, and I keep wondering “how in the name of what little in this world is still holy can this be legal”

    the job market has completely demoralized me at this point, and like I said, I just want this out there and off my chest

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think there’s often a disconnect between HR and the people actually managing the role, plus people are bad at proofreading. It’s absolutely annoying, but I wouldn’t read anything into it other than that maybe they’re disorganized or not great at communicating, which are two pieces of information you now have about the company that you didn’t have before that can help you decide if you even want to work there.

      Reply ↓
      1. stripey giraffe*

        Yeah, if this is big enough to have more than one office, for sure HR is not getting in touch with the hiring manager to find out what’s really desired.

        Reply ↓
    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Are these locations different offices of the employer, or are they locations of the employer’s clients? If the latter, it’s understandable. Quite often, the reason there’s a contractor company providing on-site support to a client, it’s because the contractor can be more flexible and nimble than the client can.

      Reply ↓
  92. ADHD Manager in Research*

    I’ve always had trouble getting through my individual to do list, but for a long time meds and coping skills were mostly sufficient (time blocking, adding external accountability by meeting with people, literally spending extra time before or after business hours to concentrate.)

    I’m now in different circumstances. A greater proportion of my job is planning and communicating around projects, plus responding in a timely manner to requests, some of which are urgent. A lot of my job is literally being in meetings. I can’t tunnel vision/focus on just my tasks bc I need to monitor the other stuff. Also, I’m a parent now, and bound by the more limited hours of available childcare. Plus I’m just older and more tired all the time. I’ve tried reducing stuff on my plate too, but it’s kind of an eternal problem, and the strategies when I was a 20something no longer work. I know I need to be more efficient and focused but am having trouble actually implementing this.

    Reply ↓
    1. Anxious autistic dude*

      Sending solidarity vibes! It sounds like you have a number of different challenges – and while it might be slow, I suggest focusing on one challenge at a time – e.g. number of meetings, building some sort of different schedule, etc.

      Also, you might want to check out the resources from the Job Accommodation Network (http://www.askjan.org) – they have a lot of good stuff

      Reply ↓
    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      Is there a senior person on your team who is good about things like project management? Delegating a significant chunk of that to them might be a growth opportunity for them while freeing you up to do more of the stuff that you excel at. FWIW, even as a neurotypical type, I totally feel you. Being a middle manager is tough. You have so many responsibilities at various levels: most of us are individual contributors, project managers, and people managers all at the same time. And yeah, having a kid makes it at least twice as difficult, IMNSHO.

      Reply ↓
  93. Rage*

    I’m finishing up my final internship hours for my Masters in Clinical Mental Health Counseling (I will hold an LPC license when all is said and done). Because I work full time (and need to work full time), I am not able to do the 2-3 days per week (generally 8-5) at an off-campus site…not if I want to eat and have shelter, anyway. But my university has a teaching clinic on-site, and I’ve been doing my internship there – they are open 3-9 PM so though it makes for very long days, at least I’m not trying to make up 24 working hours each weekend.

    I had hoped to finish my required hours over the summer – generally there are fewer students in the university clinic then – but of course THIS summer there were about 25-30, so I had only 10 hours scheduled, with about 7 clients. I was like, fine, whatever, I’ll finish up in the fall. I didn’t think it would be a problem – I only needed 75 direct client-facing hours to finish up, and that would be relatively easy to do over 15 weeks. I already had at least 5 established clients.

    Weeellllll…..about 2 weeks ago, my clients started dropping like flies. Last week, out of NINE scheduled clients, I only saw TWO. Mostly they are just not showing up at all, no call-no show. A few were canceling day of, and eventually just cancelled all remaining appointments for the semester. But it’s killing ME to be taking off a few hours of work in the afternoon to go see clients…who simply don’t show up. (I’ve started taking my work laptop with me and at least getting something done while I wait LOL)

    We’re coming up on the end of the semester, and the university clinic is closed over winter break, so if I don’t complete my hours by December 12, I will have to continue through the entire spring semester, which puts off my degree conferral by another 6 months. I have a job now, so it’s not like I need to start a new job right away, but….I have a potential job offer (it’s a departmental transfer with my current org), and they probably don’t want to wait until next summer.

    20 hours. That’s all I need between now and December 12. But the holidays next week cut out most of my clients – and then it’s just 2 weeks in December. If every single scheduled client from today on made their appointments, I would literally have the EXACT number of hours needed. But that ain’t gonna happen.

    Finally, on Monday, I just threw in the towel and registered for spring semester. The university implemented a new rule this semester that if you are finishing an “incomplete” from a class and you have submitted your Application for Degree for that semester, you have to be enrolled in at least 1 credit hour. I was lucky to get that waived this semester (since nobody bothered to tell anybody – including most of the faculty – until mid-September), but they won’t next time, so I decided to take 2 classes (1 course, 1 practicum) that I will need for the certification later (I don’t need it for the degree, just for the Play Therapy Certificate, and I have 2 years once I’m licensed to complete those).

    I’m just….so, so, so very tired. Tired of the long nights, the extra weekend work hours to make up for the time I’m gone, all of it. And no idea what the hiring people will say if they make me a offer on the transfer and I have to say “Yeah, about that….”

    So frustrating. I’m calling into question why I ever thought this was a good idea LOL.

    Anyway, just me venting. Graduate school peeps, I stand in solidarity. *holds up arm with 3 fingers in the air* The odds might not be in MY favor right now, but I hope they are at least in yours.

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      That’s incredibly frustrating!

      I know with Spring Semester it’ll be moot, but do you have the ability at the clinic to open up for drop-in hours? Or are there any other tasks you can do that would still qualify for the hours? It seems incredibly unfair for you to be kicked because of other people’s decisions.

      Reply ↓
  94. Haven’t picked a good name yet*

    I work in the UK in my second full time job and wanted to know how common this is in the UK (and whether/why the US is different). At both my jobs I have been contracted to work 37.5 hours per week. If I go over that, I have to log the time in the HR system and then I have it available as TOIL (time off in lieu) to take basically as extra holiday. This ensures that over a year, my work weeks always average out to 37.5 in the busy and quiet periods. How common is this in UK jobs? And how many US people would say your job actually evens out to 40 hours a week? (I see a lot of US people occasionally talk about working 60 hour weeks but no one talking about taking half a week off in the quiet periods or going home 1 hour early every day for a month – because that’s what one 60-hour week evens out to)

    Reply ↓
    1. Tradd*

      In the US, there is salaried non-exempt. You work the hours necessary and no overtime/comp time. That’s what I am. We are in office 8-5 M-F. There is no taking off early, etc. I’m in international transportation and there are always shipments. Coming and going as you please doesn’t work for my job and never has. I often work a bit on weekends from home (urgent air freight shipments to clear through customs). But I’ve had jobs in the past where I worked 60 hours a week. I generally leave on time.

      Reply ↓
    2. TimeOffNorms*

      Most salaried exempt positions in the US expect a minimum of 40 hours. They just don’t pay overtime when you go over it. But most of the time you have to take time off if you only work 38 hours even if you worked 80 hours the week before and the week after.

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    3. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I had the same system as you from the late 1980s onwards, which is when badging in/out became the norm in my field (R&D Engineering) and hence automated the comp account – what you call TOIL.

      Every minute worked over or under went into my comp account, so I could work fewer hours during less busy weeks, or take comp days off. I loved this, as I never thought I was being required to work for free. Also, no phone calls or EMs when I was home, so when I was away from work was genuinely my free time.

      My weeks averaged out at 37.5 hours (then later 35 hours when I chose to go down to a 35-hour-week contract for more free time)
      I worked mostly in Germany, also NL and Sweden.
      I never worked more than 45 hours (union/Work Council rules for health & life balance) and I only worked that long a few times in 30 years – my job was brainwork and my brain couldn’t stay on that long.

      Reply ↓
  95. Anxious autistic dude*

    I interviewed for a technical position recently and heard through the grapevine that it looks like I am getting the offer. However, based on the interview with the hiring manager, I think I will want to turn down an offer – I have a gut feeling that she and I will not mesh well. (She seems very hands off, and I prefer a manager who is a bit more involved.) I have read the article on this site on gracefully turning down an offer, but I was wondering if anyone else had any other advice?

    Thanks!

    Reply ↓
    1. DJ*

      Another possibility is to meet with the manager to discuss your supervision needs and their supervision style before making a final decision.
      You can also be honest with your decision of why you aren’t accepting the job offer. But make it about you e.g. I need X type of supervision which I don’t think this manager would offer! Meeting the manager and being up front about what you need first would help you accept or decline the position appropriately!

      Reply ↓
  96. Mrs Kung Pao*

    I am having a dilemma about following up on a job application that I’d love to hear some outside advice on.

    Normally, if I apply for a job, I do not follow up on the application. I spent many, many years on the hiring side and know that when reviewing applications for all ranges of jobs that you know, for the most part, off the bat if you want to interview someone or not.

    However, I recently applied to a job that I have a small connection with. In my previous job, this person worked as a vendor who had come in to replace another vendor, and I was subbing in for my boss, and had some good chats with this person – this was maybe 3-4 years ago. I have kept up with his company on LinkedIn and it has grown big time over the past several years. He is super active on LinkedIn (I am not – my stuff is up to date but I don’t post/comment, occasionally I like stuff) about business growth but also celebrating his team and he is just a good guy and the kind of business owner someone would really, really want to work for. About a year ago I messaged him, as his business is located by a place I frequent that is off the beaten path, and said I saw his spot and his posts on LinkedIn and said it was great to have met him at previous job, and that I really admire how he’s grown the company and created a great sounding workplace. He replied saying thanks and talked a little bit about working for toxic bosses and how he works hard to make the opposite experience. It was just a genuine message of appreciation from me to him. I would love to work for him, but we are in different industries. Except: last week, he posted a role on LinkedIn that fits my skill set. The post wasn’t even a traditional LI job post, just a PDF image of the job duties and to email him directly to apply. This hasn’t posted anywhere locally, and isn’t even on their own website, so seemed directly for his pretty small network. I excitedly emailed my cover letter and resume directly to him as instructed with a brief email note saying I’d always wanted to apply to work at his company but nothing had fit until now. This was last Wednesday, and I have heard zero back. I have checked to ensure that I sent it to the correct place. I am torn on whether to follow up or not, as I also think he is the type of guy to reject someone instead of ghost them. I saw on LI he was at a speaking conference in the middle of the week, and he’s been very active on LI under his personal profile and his business one (I’d messaged him last year under his personal one), but I have not had any reply. Should I follow up and if so, when? I don’t think this role would have a huge ton of applicants given how not advertised it was, and the instructions on how to apply were actually on the second page of the post. It’s not a big company with a huge following. I have been super unhappy in my current role for a while now, and applying and just being ghosted for over a year everywhere, and that really adds to the emotional piece for me, which I am trying to not listen to. What should I do, if anything?

    Reply ↓
    1. TCO*

      You applied properly, and you know that he knows who you are (aka will remember you when he sees your application). Why follow up? What are you hoping to accomplish?

      It’s entirely possible that he’s waiting to follow up until he has something to share–a next step or a rejection. Or maybe he’s just busy. I think you’re reading way too much into this.

      Reply ↓
  97. Goldfeesh*

    Within the last month-ish I remember a discussion on work history and how you could use the Social Security website to find all the jobs/earnings from when you worked. I’m planning on looking for a new job and I can’t remember crap about job dates, etc. I also can’t remember what thread it was either, of course. I’m kicking myself for not keeping a halfway-updated resume on hand now.

    Reply ↓
    3. Rick Tq*

      My experience is that the SS website tells you how much you earned each year but is silent about who you worked for or for how long.

      As far as I know only old W2s on tax returns give you employer-level detail with dates.

      Maybe go to the credit reporting companies and pull your detailed credit history?

      Reply ↓
    4. DJ*

      Do you have old tax returns with group certificates which would have dates. Do you have access to your tax records? Or used accountants in the past to prepare tax returns. They may have that info

      Reply ↓
  98. Peeeuh*

    (Alison, please let me know if this isn’t work-related enough!).

    Ever made a collection of press clippings about someone’s career?

    My wonderful spouse has been elected to be a partner at the law firm where he works. He is incredibly hard-working, dedicated, and unfailingly kind, and I’m so glad he’s getting recognized. To mark this milestone, I want to surprise him with a lovely binder containing all the articles he’s authored and trade journal articles/press releases that mention him. (And then continue to add to it).

    So far, here’s what I got: I found a beautiful leather binder cover (customizable with name/initials too!) to order online (let me know if anyone wants the same of the company). I’m planning to simply print out the articles and put the pages in clear sheet protectors.

    Would love to hear any suggestions or ideas for how to make it more special or any other helpful things to keep in mind!

    Reply ↓
    1. Anonymouss*

      My mom made one for my dad! It’s a really sweet scrapbook. My mom printed out nice emails from coworkers and friends (messages that congratulated, thanked, or commended him) which I think he had saved in a folder and she just asked him to forward to her. [This was many years ago, so email security might be different today, haha.] But you could ask your partner if he has any favorite emails/notes/messages to include.

      Specific to law firms, you could consider adding older materials, like if there was a program from when he was sworn into the bar, or the program from his law school graduation.

      I think the fact that you’re pulling all of this together is very sweet! Congratulations to your spouse.

      Reply ↓
  99. Peeeuh*

    Ever made a collection of press clipings?

    My wonderful spouse has been elected to be a partner at the law firm where he works. He is incredibly hard-working, dedicated, and unfailingly kind, and I don’t know anyone who deserves the recognition he’s starting to get. I want to surprise him with a lovely binder of the articles he’s authored and trade journal articles that mention him.

    So far, here’s what I got: I found a beautiful leather binder cover (custiomizable with name/initials too!) to order online (let me know if anyone wants the same of the company). I’m planning to simply print out the articles and put the pages in clear sheet protectors.

    Would love to hear any suggestions or ideas for how to make it more special or things to keep in mind!

    Reply ↓
    1. Peeeuh*

      *that should say: Ever made a collection of press clippings **about someone’s career**?

      (Also, Alison, please let me know if this is not work-related enough!)

      Reply ↓
  100. Rock Prof*

    I need an academic reality check. My school is currently pushing to have us develop undergraduate certificates. These have no actual definition, just a cluster of courses that we give some name. These aren’t going to be like minors necessarily, which are an actual academic credential and are generally offered outside of a major. The certificates can be 2-4 course groupings that might be completely within a major (say getting a Mapping certificate for taking GIS and some geography classes). A major could just be a whole bunch of these stacked together, with no limits on how many you can do.
    The reasoning behind developing these is that apparently employers love them. I knee jerk call BS on that (there was actually a poll a while ago of geology industry and no one gave a crap about certificates). I do think lots of students and people like the stepping stones of certificates, but I just don’t think employers really care. Ultimately, I think my school is going to ask us develop these regardless of my opinion, but I just wanted to see if anyone has any opinions on this whole nebulous concept of certificates.
    I know there are some graduate and professional certificates (like in Project Management or GIS ones offered through ESRI) that have some meaning, but I just think this is a bit gimmicky and will just be a time suck for faculty to develop.

    Reply ↓
      1. Rock Prof*

        Thanks for the validation on how I feel about it, too! It’s likely not even a particularly good money grab idea, because we’re a high middle selectivity liberal arts school that doesn’t cater to any non-traditional students, so it’s really just gamifying the degree of the students currently enrolled. We’re not planning on offering these to anyone who isn’t a full time student.

        Reply ↓
    2. Nesprin*

      Money grab with 2 caveats:
      you have a very strong industry advisory board + open local job need
      you have a large population of students who need to get jobs fast, and having documented drafting, or GIS, or whatever experience is valuable to them while still enrolled.

      Reply ↓
    3. Qwerty*

      Are these going on Coursera? I find the specializations can be interesting there because it is “take these three classes to learn X” rather than trying to find a bunch of random classes about X and guess at the right order. I’ve been hearing developers talk about GIS lately (no idea what it is) so either there are people who need to know more about this specific topic or its a chance to cash in on rich silicon valley money.

      From the employer perspective, I don’t know anything about geology, but I know our management team struggles to find what are the most effective trainings to send our people to. I have a better shot at getting approval for someone to take a few online courses in a grouping than for them to go a conference and maybe learn something small. We’d probably have multiple people take the class together so they could have a study group. Giving people licenses to Pluralsight or Udemy means most people don’t use it, most who try it out don’t really learn much, and only a couple really dedicated people get value out of it.

      …but now I kinda want to learn geology

      Reply ↓
      1. Rock Prof*

        Nope, we’re a tiny undergrad only school with nothing online. It just feels like gamification of the current undergraduate degrees.

        Reply ↓
  101. bumming around*

    Does anyone have experience with employment gaps for no good reason?
    I moved & left my old job with nothing new lined up for partner-related reasons, and I was fortunate enough to have a financial cushion, but it’s been over 6 months now and I’m still dragging on job applications – I’ve applied to probably fewer than 10 jobs. Part of it is that my work history hasn’t set me up for success + nothing seems like a good fit, but a bigger part of it is just. . . laziness. I can’t point to anything productive I’ve done during this time and there’s really no way to frame this as anything other than, “I’m a bum who doesn’t want to work,” which is obviously not going to seem appealing to any hiring managers.
    Relatedly, if anyone has recommendations to help with job searching motivation *before* my nest egg runs out, I’m all ears.

    Reply ↓
    1. DJ*

      Is there an affordable course you could do that helps you to work out your direction? Then follow it up with some part time study if needed so you can still work.
      Can you do a jobseeking workshop as that may motivate you.
      If explaining you leaving your last position it’s due to relocating with your partner and needing to be in your new area to jobseek.
      Also before finances becomes a problem could you get a part time stop gap job. That will buy you some time before you absolutely have to get any job which may end up unsuitable.
      Sometimes it helps to schedule in your day which can include time slots for looking at job ads, phone calls, emails and other set activities that can be unrelated to jobseeking.

      Reply ↓
    2. Phlox*

      This may not be you at all, but when I left my last job it took me about 8 months to really find the oomphf again. Job hunting motivation didn’t magically come when I starting feeling more like myself, but it did help. And if this isn’t you at all, we’re both covered in the “After leaving for [x personal/partner reason], I took time off for myself, really appreciated the break and am excited to return to work” type general framing for explaining where we were.

      Reply ↓
  102. DJ*

    Would this look odd? The workload in my section has been intense all year due to a vacant position not being backfilled! Plus a manager that gets snappy with stress and unwilling to work out what we can drop. So I’ve been looking at a sidewise move at the same grade.
    I’m now doing temporary higher duties until March 2025 due to a second person leaving (my position was backfilled temporarily by someone who did it temporarily the last time I did higher duties)
    However a temp vacancy on my usual grade in a different unit/same branch has come up. It is until June 2025 but likely to go longer.
    I’d like to express interest but does it look weird that I’m dropping back to my usual grade to take up another temp job? I wouldn’t lose my permanency!
    The other issue could be that I could be refused this in grade temp position due to issues quickly backfilling and training someone up in my acting position due to impact of leaving that position vacant since Jan. Ironically if they backfilled the long standing vacant position when it had become vacant I wouldn’t be wanting to move on!

    Reply ↓
  103. Anon4this1*

    At what point do you gently nudge people on your team to apply elsewhere in the organization?

    I work at a university and head a department. I have a couple people on my team, one in particular, who I have been trying to get promoted for almost 2 years. I had to go through so many hoops (but a couple other people were just promoted who did not deserve it and did not have to go through hoops) and it is taking forever. Now they are using budget cuts as the excuse to possibly not promote/raise salaries for these particular people.

    These are great employees and I have encouraged them to apply to other parts of the university and know one has applications out. I told them I would be happy to be a reference anytime and am fine giving them flex time if they need to interview.

    I spoke with HR the other day and they are dragging their feet. I am upset for these team members. One of my team members needs to be bumped multiple levels in my opinion as they are doing higher level work. HR is pushing back, yet they bumped someone else multi-steps recently who (in my opinion) did not deserve such a jump.

    The team members tell me they love working for me and I do what I can — when we had monetary awards I applied for members of my team. I give them the most % I can for raises, but it is not enough.

    It is really frustrating because I don’t think HR will give them what they deserve. I want them to be respected and think they also should be applying elsewhere. I do not want them to leave, but realize they are not being compensated correctly.

    I do not know what I am saying exactly, but how do I get these team members to apply for other roles at the university that would give them the salary, title and recognition they deserve? Maybe we will be able to create these new roles for them, but it has been a year+ of me trying and nothing has been done with HR and my boss who has to OK it keeps dragging their feet. I recognize and do what I can, but HR has ultimate say here.

    I just looked on the job portal and there are perfect jobs for one person who would be making more money basically doing the same job but with the correct title and salary. I don’t want people to think I am pushing them out because I don’t want them to go, but it is not fair that HR and my boss have taken a year and still nothing has changed.

    I am also looking to leave because the last few years have been stressful. I have protected my team from the onslaught from above but I am drained and burned out. I don’t want them thinking they stayed for me when I was actively looking either. Any advise?

    Reply ↓
  104. UNCLE BUCK*

    Wild week Monday morning called for one on one first one since being hired three years ago. As soon as I came in after my first two days of vacation for the year the end of last week. HQ had ordered one on ones be completed by Nov 30th I knew that requirement. I was asked to clean my desk, my response was that is in the works. Other request was give some of my workload to others, I did not share that was impossible due to lack of knowledge by others and the response I had received in the past when asking for help. I was informed that there was a desk reorganization to get certain people to the customers at the counter, I was not moving, no need for that. Was asked if I wanted management job or if anyone in the office could handle it, the answer was Hell No. I was asked my thoughts on next year’s goals, training classes and product stocking. After I returned to my desk I saw an E-mail from Grand boss of a picture from previous Thursday morning when he walked into office to find an empty office except customers waiting to be served and warehouse staff who start 1/2 hour before office staff, taken five minutes after start time. Since the desk shuffle the comments to me have not been nice and one coworker has not spoken to me. My job search will be ramped up.

    Reply ↓
  105. Liz*

    I’m a current Master’s student looking to transition back into the workforce after I finish up this Spring. Is January too early to start looking for other opportunities? It’s a bit complicated by the fact that I don’t actually finish until June, so it’s longer than it would be for those graduating in early May.

    Reply ↓

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