open thread – December 20, 2024

by Alison Green on December 20, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Georgina Sands*

    Ooh good timing. I have a question for people: do you think it’s acceptable to refer to women in the workplace as “young lady”?

    I’m recruiting for the first time, and I’ve had two applicants refer to me as “young lady”, both times in the initial email exchanges while setting up a phone call. I am in my mid-thirties (visible/guessable from my profile details, which they can see), but I think even if I was younger I would still feel uncomfortable or infantalised by it and I find it very weird. I don’t feel like it’s appropriate or professional.

    But then I also hate being referred to as a “guy” which is (sadly) socially normal, so perhaps I’m just being grumpy and this is a normal way to refer to women? I’ve only ever been called “young lady” by creepy older men before, but both applicants were women and younger than me, mid 20s judging by their GCSE dates, so not so young they don’t have a fair bit of professional experience.

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    2. snowglobe*

      I’m in my 30s. In the environment I was raised “young lady” was meant to be a polite signifier of someone less than middle-aged. I would assume they are trying to be polite and it’s landing badly with you. If you hire them, then might be the time to offer coaching but otherwise I’d brush it off.

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      2. JSPA*

        As a description, maaaaybe? But only if you buy into ageist assumptions? But as a form of address to a hiring manager???? I have never encountered this… So i’m wondering if it is very niche or regional.

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      3. Ginger Cat Lady*

        You don’t NEED a “polite signifier” of age in a professional setting, though. The age of the hiring manager doesn’t matter the way it would if you were describing a new acquaintance as a potential dating match to a bachelor you know.

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      4. Observer*

        In the environment I was raised “young lady” was meant to be a polite signifier of someone less than middle-aged

        Sure. But I’m with the others who simply don’t see any reason for there to be a signifier of age in such a context.

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    3. Required*

      “Young lady” seems like a completely unnecessary way to refer to someone. I don’t see a context where using that phrase would help. Maybe the applicants have heard bad advice on some socials (I dare you to guess which one) and are trying it out to help their chances.

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      1. Georgina Sands*

        I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks it’s weird! It’s really not normal at all where I live, you might perhaps here “for the young lady over there” if, say, a teenage girl was waiting for a coffee or something, but that’s really the only context that I’ve ever heard apart from creepy older guys. So social media would make sense, since it’s two people of a relatively similar age. I might ask out of curiosity if either of them gets hired!

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      2. anotherfan*

        i agree — and I can’t imagine a woman calling another woman ‘young lady’ unless it was their mom and they were 6. it just seems odd to me!

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        1. Yorick*

          And older men don’t really call younger men “young man” unless they’re exerting some type of dominance – which is how you can tell that’s what they’re doing when they say it to a woman. It’s a way to put themselves above the woman in question.

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          1. Town Person*

            In fairness, I often find it useful to refer to younger co-workers as “young man” when I’m suggesting a place where they can get themselves clean (where they can have a good meal and do whatever they feel.)

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            2. MozartBookNerd*

              Same here, I might use the phrase for something like, oh, for instance:
              “Young man, I was once in your shoes. I was down and out with the blues.”

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      3. Inkognyto*

        How to find out if Young is a bad word in this context/professional.

        replace it with the opposite “Old”

        Now you are bringing age into it. Just don’t.

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    4. tab*

      Whenever someone referred to me as “young lady” I would respond, “You’re wrong twice! I’m neither young, nor a lady.” But that’s just my sense of humor…

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      1. Georgina Sands*

        Haha I love this! Though I sadly suspect not quite appropriate for initial emails. But the next time anyone says it to my face, I’m going to use this!

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    5. Redaktorin*

      Calling someone older than you “young lady” when you are an actual young lady strikes me as an attempt at humor that’s not quite landing. I just can’t think of another reason to do this.

      I don’t think I’d bring it up if it were a one-off from a nervous person (likely in the context of them applying for jobs), but it wouldn’t be off-base to say something like “I’m flattered, but not a young lady!” in your email reply, along with whatever scheduling info you have for them.

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    6. Paint N Drip*

      I think the venn diagram between people who use ‘young lady’ and people who have other “old fashioned” ideas that devalue me has a significant overlap, so I personally would take it as something that MIGHT be an issue but can’t decide on just that. Snowglobe’s take is totally reasonable, but I also think your prickliness about it is warranted

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      1. Stephanie Gertz*

        My dream job would be help companies be more inclusive from a disability perspective, besides lived experience, what qualification (s) would you want such a person to have?

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      2. learnedthehardway*

        THIS!!

        Feel free to correct people who do this by pointing out that doing this will cause people to assume they are old-fashioned and may result in age discrimination against them.

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    7. MsM*

      I think it is a potential warning flag that these applicants don’t have a great sense of current professional norms, and it’s worth keeping an eye out for other signs during the interview process. (If they are in fact less experienced than you and they ask for feedback, it may be a courtesy to point out that making assumptions or implications about a colleague’s age isn’t a great idea, even if they think it’s a compliment.)

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      1. Kay*

        This is where I land. I find it so bizarre, and thankfully I’ve never come across it, but it would lead me to wonder if they had gone down some tradwife redpill adjacent rabbit hole.

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    8. londonedit*

      No, that’s weird, and it’s not something I’ve ever come across (and I’m in the UK, same as you judging by your mention of GCSEs).

      To me, ‘young lady’ is only ever used in the following situations:

      1. creepy man trying to be obsequiously ‘gentlemanly’
      2. my mum or dad making a joke (like ‘What do you think you’re playing at, young lady??’ when I’m in my 40s)
      3. much older person trying to be polite (‘let the young lady pass’, even though I’m in my 40s)
      4. genuinely addressing a small female-presenting child.

      I find it really weird that these people are a) calling you ‘young lady’ in the first place and b) that they’re in their 20s themselves. Perhaps they’re trying to be overly polite?? I don’t know. It’s an odd one.

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      1. Georgina Sands*

        It’s good to get confirmation from other UK people as I wasn’t sure if the American usage might be different. I’ve also seen it used for younger teenage girls as well, but this context really threw me. One of the applicants particularly was very professional and polished otherwise, which confused me even more.

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        1. Slow Gin Lizz*

          The only time I’ve ever been referred to as “young lady” was when I was a teenager and my parents were chastising me for doing something bad. I was a mostly good kid so I didn’t get it too often, but wow did I hate it. I’m in the US, fwiw. I think here “young lady” is very judgmental, but I obviously can’t speak for all Americans.

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          2. Great Frogs of Literature*

            I wouldn’t necessarily find it judgemental if the person in question is… minimum 70 years old? Maaaaaybe 60? But yes, there’s a strong vibe of “disapproving elder,” though I think all of the usages londonedit listed are also used in the US, to greater and lesser extents.

            It’s possible that my 90-year-old former landlord called me “young lady” when I was ~30. But other than that, I can’t remember the last time someone used it to refer to me.

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            1. Don’t make me come over there*

              I used to work with a 70-ish man who called me “young lady” when I was in my late 40’s. It did not sit well with me. It definitely felt patronizing.

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          3. goddess21*

            it’s regional. you get it in eastern pa and it means ‘im polite so im not calling you ma’am aka old lady’. it doesn’t have judgmental vibes here. weirded me tf out till i got used to it.

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            1. not nice, don't care*

              It is judgmental in that the person saying it is making assumptions about the person’s age/appearance and ability to respond to ageist intercations.

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        2. The Prettiest Curse*

          I’m in the UK too and have never seen or heard this phrase in a professional context, especially from another woman. I think it could potentially be related to your disability, especially the weird, patronising, excessively cheerful tone that people here sometimes adopt when addressing a person with a visible disability – but I hope that I’m wrong.

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          1. Georgina Sands*

            You may well be right – I’ve certainly had a few strange experiences with candidates because of it (such as the woman who greeted my two colleagues normally, then spoke to me in a full on baby voice. She did not get the job). But even then, it seems a very odd thing to do, and not something I’ve experienced in any other context.

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            1. Cassandra*

              What?! This is bananapants. I cannot fathom what would make anyone think this is appropriate conduct for an interview! Did you call that woman out on her behavior at the time?

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        4. Bruce*

          As a Yank I don’t hear this usage in a work setting, and for a younger person to use it for you would be puzzling. Like other people have said it seems harmless, but does raise questions about their judgement… kind of a small red pennant if not an actual “red flag” :-)

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      2. Not Sure*

        Not sure if this would make sense
        or not, but is it possible that they have been referred to themselves as “young lady” in a similar context, and being inexperienced themselves assumed that the person doing so was correct? Maybe that’s a bit too charitable.

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      4. Good list*

        I completely agree, this is used in informal conversations, never in a formal conversation as during the application process. This would give me serious pause about their understanding of workplace norms.

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      5. Reluctant Mezzo*

        I also use ‘young lady’ when admonishing my cat for taking her time about coming in for the night…but again, supposedly superior to supposedly inferior (cat, after all).

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    9. Samwise*

      No, it’s unprofessional and not appropriate. If nothing else, it’s too casual! But it is also demeaning. You could be or look 18 years old and it still would not be appropriate.

      These applicants should know better. Maybe they think you are a receptionist or assistant — which does not make it correct! but people will often treat support staff as less-than.

      I’d take this as useful information — if they are otherwise good candidates on paper, you might still move them forward in the process. If they are interviewed, I would probe for ability to communicate professionally, attitudes towards a diverse range of people, that sort of thing, and if they get to the reference-check stage, follow up with references on these topics.

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    10. Tuesday Tacos*

      This seems bizarre to me coming from women, and those younger than you. I mean, it would 100% NOT be okay from older people or men either, but coming from younger women I wonder if there is a language barrier or a cultural one? It sounds so odd and I wonder if they are using AI or something to write their correspondence.

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      1. Georgina Sands*

        It is so bizarre! Nope, they’re both native English speakers with professional experience only here. I am also disabled (and again, it’s obvious in my profile) so a part of me wonders if it might be that, but while I do occasionally get infantalised for using a wheelchair, I’ve never come across being called a “young lady” because of it, so I’m dubious. AI may well be the answer!

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        1. Head Sheep Counter*

          Wait what? I was about to do the ye old if english is a second language… I’d give them a pass but be alert. But in this case I’d throw their application in the rubbish bin. There is no polite way this is meant in this context. Its demeaning. Its wrong.

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        2. Cascadia*

          In what context are they addressing you as ‘young lady’? Is it written or spoken? I can’t really think of a context where I have seen it written. Spoken, yes, all the time – in the coffee shop example above, or from my grandfather. But I’m just trying to picture how it would be written – in an email to you saying ‘Dear Young Lady?’ or in writing the sentence ‘A young lady such as yourself won’t understand X’ – I’m just soooo curious now. I feel like every time I’ve come across this term it’s spoken, and it’s usually referring to someone else, not a way to address someone directly.

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          1. Georgina Sands*

            It’s written, in emails – think “as the young lady who is in charge of hiring, you can see my experience in x means y…” (it wasn’t that, I’m trying to keep it vague, and it’s hard to think of an example) for structure, where they’re addressing me, but also referring to me at the same time, which feels a bit odd all by itself. They both used it in initial emails, and one of the two was otherwise completely polite and professional otherwise. I have never seen or heard it before here either, it definitely isn’t a regional thing. I’m so confused!

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            2. Cascadia*

              Ah ok – that makes sense. It would be super weird in writing to you directly, but I suppose I can see how it came up if they were referring to you in the 3rd person and you were cc-ed on the email. But even then – why not just say “as the hiring manager, you can see ….”

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              1. Georgina Sands*

                The emails were directly addressed to me, I wasn’t CCd in or anything – I was the only other person aside from the candidate on the email chain. So I do think the third person usage is a bit strange, but I probably wouldn’t have noticed if they’d said like, “as the hiring manager” or “the woman/person in charge of xyz” instead of “as the young lady”

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        3. Minimal Pear*

          I’m disabled and sometimes use a mobility aid and sometimes don’t so I feel pretty confident when I say that it’s an ableism thing. It’s exactly the kind of thing people use to refer to me when they see me with a mobility aid. I’m sure it’s unconscious bias, but still.

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      2. A Significant Tree*

        Agreed – that’s the last demographic I would have expected to use “young lady” on someone as a direct address. I would find it off-putting too, and although I hadn’t thought about AI-generated language being the source until reading this response, that seems like a real possibility.

        So, it’s weird but it could be a one-off and they could be perfectly professional in person. But it’s definitely a sign to look for other forms of subpar professionalism if you choose to interview either of them.

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      3. Disagree*

        This is coming from somebody who is no native English speaker: to refer to a woman as a “young” lady is belitteling in other languages as well.

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    11. Times New Sicilian*

      I’ve used “young lady” in the workplace, but exclusively to direct attention to women I didn’t know, around college age, as alternative to physically pointing at them. For example, “the person you’re interviewing is here—it’s the young lady in the lobby, wearing a black jacket,” or “the young lady by the door had a question, can you help her?”

      Slightly baffled at the idea of using it refer to anyone older than that, or in an email.

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    12. Christmas Carol*

      Miss Manners defines the term “young lady” as a reference made by a parent to a female offspring who had just done something dreadful.

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    13. Amy Purralta*

      I’ve only had it by older men, in fact my Grandad still says it to me. It winds me up, I’m 41, I’m not a child and I didn’t like it then as it sounds patronising.
      I’ve never known a younger person use the phrase. I wonder if it’s AI suggesting it as a polite way to refer to a woman?

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      1. Clisby*

        I’ve had MANY younger people refer to me as “young lady” – I’m now 71, and this probably started when I was about 50. I don’t know whether they thought they were complimenting me, but – I was not complimented.

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        1. Ginger Cat Lady*

          Yeah society is SO obsessed with youth that they think calling older people “young” is supposed to be a compliment or something. I hate it.

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      2. Zephy*

        God, if these candidates are asking ChatGPT how to politely refer to women we really are done for as a species, I think.

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    14. JSPA*

      Have not encountered “young lady” from women barely younger in a work setting. I’ve encountered it from doctors (all ages and genders) who use it with “old” people (with “old” starting maybe 25 years older than they are?) as some sort of (misplaced and irritating)…positivity? As well as from people enough older that I’m willing to belive they’re using it as a neutral descriptor.

      I obviously don’t mind it when someone is asking me to hand them their walker and glasses. But other uses are strangely focused on age and gender.

      If they’ll be involved in much interaction with the public or with other coworkers, I’d personally downgrade applicants who use “young lady.” Life’s too short to be spending time teaching people how not to be low-level offensive.

      (Yes, they may have had it used it “at” them, and been fed a line about it being a respectful form of address. But if they believe that, then… what else do they believe?)

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      1. epicdemiologist*

        I’ve also only ever been called “young lady” by people younger than me (yes, like doctors) who are being condescending (do they think they’re being flattering, calling old women young?). It annoys the hell out of me.

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      2. Georgina Sands*

        This is a very good point, I hadn’t thought of it like that. Thanks – the position is indeed heavily customer-facing.

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    15. Scholarly Publisher*

      “Young lady” is what my parents would call me when I was a teen to warn me that they didn’t approve of my behavior, so someone calling me that once I was an adult would sound condescending to me. That said, this was in the southern United States, and I’m not familiar with UK usage.

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      2. Clisby*

        US Southerner here. “Young lady, you are NOT leaving the house like that!”

        Long ago Miss Manners decreed that a young lady was a female child who had just done something awful.

        It’s not gendered – “Young man, you will NOT be doing that in my house!”

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    16. Blue Cactus*

      As a mid-20s woman – no. “Young lady” is quite infantilizing and, frankly, bizarre. I call my cat “young lady” when she does something stupid, I would never call a potential professional contact “young lady” in a million years. It might be a weird attempt a humor, or if these candidates were non-native English speakers it may be just a misunderstanding of the term’s connotations.

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    17. Sloanicota*

      I aint like it. “Miss” is fine and bonus points if you blur the z, or just use my name, as you would with a man, rather than calling him “young gentleman.”

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    18. I should really pick a name*

      I don’t think it’s great, but I don’t think it’s worth addressing over email. Actually, it seems really weird to me that someone would use “young lady” in email, it seems very much like an in person thing.

      Could be addressed in person: “for future communications please use [whatever salutation you prefer], not young lady”

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    19. IckyNotPicky*

      Ewww, no. Reeks of sexism. I might not disqualify someone over it, but you better believe I’d be probing their attitude toward women in the workplace, especially if dealing with Male-dominated fields.

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    20. ecnaseener*

      Oh, ew. Very off-putting. My best guess though is that they’re not native English speakers and didn’t realize. Maybe they’d googled for younger alternatives to “ma’am” or something.

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    21. Bast*

      I find it a very odd way to refer to someone in a business setting. “Young lady” was something I only ever heard when I was in trouble, or when it would be followed with something along the lines of “Young lady, back in my day we ___________.”

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    22. spcepickle*

      I am a women in my early 40s. I work and recruit often in a very male dominated field. You are not wrong or grumpy that referring to a professional women as a young lady is always wrong.
      It is infantizing and under cuts authority. For me it is a red flag, I would not pull person from consideration if it were the only red flag, but I would pay extra attention in the interview to how they respond to your leadership.
      Red flag that is similar – Addressing your cover letter / email to gentleman or sir.
      Pet peeve that is similar – When talking about a hypothetical engineer or contractor only using he/him pronouns.

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      1. I Have RBF*

        I hate it when they did that at 20, 30, and 40. I wouldn’t do that to others now that I’m over 60. I will accept “sir” or “ma’am” (I’m enby).

        If I called a woman “young lady” it would be perfectly suitable response for her to call me “old lady”. (Neither is appropriate in polite company.)

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      2. ElastiGirl*

        I *just* had a cashier call me “young lady.” I turned around and looked behind me, then I turned back and said, “Sorry, I couldn’t tell who you were speaking to.”

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    24. Hiring Manager (they/them)*

      Is it acceptable overall? Probably, though calling someone “young lady” is almost never the ONLY somewhat dismissive thing that they do towards women and/or younger people, so on it’s own, it’s whatever, but usually indicative of being unaware or thoughtless when it comes to being inclusive of others. (And likely that they make age-based assumptions of the people around them, rather than judging on quality of work.)

      Do *I* think it should be acceptable. Nope, but I’m 30, nonbinary, fairly femme-presenting and live in the Midwest, so I get called it all the time and often get blank stares when I say, “Oh, I’m not a young lady – my name is [name] and my pronouns are they/them.” So I’m a pretty biased source…

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    25. TX_Trucker*

      Young lady AND young man are quite common in my area. I didn’t grow up in this region and find it super weird. But I just brush it off with people I likely will never see it again. If it’s a coworker that I interact with regularly interact with, I will share that I don’t like it.

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    26. Liz the Snackbrarian*

      Nope! My age and sex are not indicators of my ability to do my job. Directly addressing me as “young lady” is infantilizing.

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    27. Bitte Meddler*

      The one time I had someone “young lady” me at work was when I was auditing one of our warehouses and, when I arrived, the manager said, “Hello, young lady! Have a seat in the meeting room over there and I’ll be right with you, hon.”

      I did my audit and then at the end of the day when I was presenting him my results, I added that he shouldn’t use language with women that he wouldn’t with men. He looked confused so I said, “If I were a man, would you have said, ‘Hello, young gentleman! Have a seat in the meeting room, hon.”

      He looked horrified at the idea of calling a man “hon” (short for “honey”).

      Then he stammered that he was “just being polite” and said the women in his life appreciated being treated like that.

      I told him that there’s a difference between family/social situations and work situations, and asked him to please treat all of his coworkers and our customers equally.

      So, yeah, having candidates — who I am assuming were men — call me “young lady” would make my eye twitch.

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    28. Throwaway Account*

      1. “Young lady” is not an appropriate form of address for an office setting – that’s what parents say to children when they are not happy with them (or what creepy guys say)
      2. Are you saying that two job applicants about 10 years younger than you addressed you as young lady – or that they said something like, “I don’t remember the name but I was speaking to a young lady”?

      I don’t think young lady is appropriate in #2 either. And I don’t like young or lady. Better to say, “I was speaking to a younger woman.” Or I can live with younger lady. Then it is an adjective designed to help identify someone rather than a noun (correct me on the parts of speech if I got that wrong!).

      I’ve adopted the southern, y’all or all y’all in my own speech and I’m happy with that as an alternative to guys.

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      1. Georgina Sands*

        They were addressing me, but also referring to me in the third person – I don’t want to copy and paste their sentences as this is already quite specific, but think something like “as the young lady who is in charge of the hiring process…”. Interestingly #2 wouldn’t bother me much, particularly if we’d spoken on the phone, but this particular context/usage seems very weird to me.

        “Y’all” is such a great term. The US and Australia both have good terms for “you (pl)” – in the UK we don’t really have any native ones, and though I use the Australian “youse” in informal contexts, I wish we had a better one!

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        1. Arrietty*

          I use y’all in the UK. I have a semi-BBC accent and it probably sounds ridiculous but it’s such a useful word.

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    29. Dido*

      I find that extremely strange – I’m also a mid-20s woman and I wouldn’t even DREAM of calling my mid-30s boss or anyone else I work with a “young lady” it seems very inappropriate. I guess it’s a misguided attempt to flatter you and try to suck up to you. But usually this kind of thing only works when you use it on a 70+ year old woman who obviously isn’t young

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    30. Dovasary Balitang*

      Ew, no. I’ve previously had a coworker refer to me (and our manager!) as “little girl” and I hated it. Use someone’s name. I isn’t hard.

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    31. Abundant Shrimp*

      I’ve been called young lady recently by a contractor I tried to hire to do work on my house; after he learned that I’d gone with a different one. I am not young and hopefully not a lady. To me, in that context, it was a red flag and a sign not to try to use him in the future. This one has me puzzled. A young woman? to a woman older than herself? in a professional setting??? is this regional or something? It would make me feel so weird.

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    32. Drought*

      Late 30s cis female. This does not bother me. But that doesn’t matter because it bothers you. So just ask them to call you by your name. Assume positive intent, and move on. If the keep doing it after you ask them to stop, then feel free to consider them an asshole.

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    33. SummitSkein*

      I kept playing this over in my head to try to find out why I think it’s ok in some contexts and not others, and I think for me it comes down to if someone is speaking to me using that phrase, or speaking about me using that phrase. “That young lady at the front desk” feels much more passable than “Thank you young lady.” The first feels like an attempt at a polite descriptor, where the second feels condescending. I wonder why? *adds to list of things to overthink*

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    34. ASGirl*

      When I was 41, I had a fellow engineer call me that, the guy was probably 5-10 years older than me. It literally threw me off and I looked at him side eyed after that. He was a contract employee so this might be one reason why he wasn’t working anywhere permanent.

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    35. Betty (the other betty)*

      I think it’s inappropriate.

      I doubt those same people would call a male recruiter “young man.”

      Age isn’t a good descriptor in a workplace.

      (I’m also having trouble picturing how the phrase came up in an email!)

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      1. Georgina Sands*

        They certainly wouldn’t have called me a “young gentleman” which I suppose is the equivalent!

        Think “as the young lady in charge of the hiring process, you will know…” sort of thing, as I don’t want to copy the actual phrases too closely.

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        1. JSPA*

          Yeah, nah. Their skill set and references would have to be both excellent and rare, for me to put them in the “interview further” pile. Though I suppose there could be someone within your organization who’s calling you that, to them, and they’re echoing it. Which would be a different problem.

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        2. Jaydee*

          Nope. Nope nope nope. I commented below what I thought was the one way it could be vaguely appropriate to use “young lady” or “young man” in a work context. There’s no reason to do that here. “As the person in charge of the hiring process….” or “As the one in charge of the hiring process….” or “Since you are in charge of the hiring process….” all work fine in that context and are distinctly not weird. What you described is weird.

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    36. Successful Birthday Rememberer*

      Someone called me that at work once and my awesome manager nearly frog marched him into HR. He was generally socially inappropriate so it’s no surprise that he was the one who said it.
      I try to give people grace on things, but this one is patronizing, infantizing, and rude.
      I would not consider hirinig someone who did not have the sense to not say this.

      Reply ↓
    37. RagingADHD*

      It’s weird. But TBH if it’s 2 women in their mid 20s, my first thought is that there’s probably a meme going around about it. Like maybe the elder Gen Z’s are trying to make it a thing?

      Reply ↓
    38. Chirpy*

      I find being referred to as “young lady” to be infantilizing and ageist, although I understand that people often mean it kindly* (I’m in my 40s). But I also work with people who say “can you help the young lady in aisle 4” when they mean a customer who is clearly in her 80s, which is just extra annoying, because then I’m not looking for an older person!

      Reply ↓
    39. Morgi Corgi*

      To me it comes off as really weird, infantilizing, and honestly kind of creepy. But maybe that’s because I’ve only ever heard the terms “young lady” and “young man” used when a child is in trouble.

      Reply ↓
    40. Bike Walk Barb*

      I don’t think it’s acceptable and I find it deeply weird as a phrase to actually write in an email in a professional context. I might use it verbally to my daughters or my younger sister in a joking way. Someone writing, “So, young lady, are we on for that call Tuesday at 9?” isn’t using professional communication standards for contact with someone they don’t know and have no relationship with, and most especially when they’re job applicants.

      I’m with you on not-a-guy grumpiness. I actually got some of my senior executives to start catching themselves when they said it if I was in the room and they caught my eye.

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    41. juliebulie*

      I always hated being called “young lady.” I am now of an age where no one calls me that anymore, but years ago when I was in my 30s I had a coworker who always called me “young lady.” (He wasn’t creepy in the least, but he probably didn’t know my name.) So, I started calling him “old man.” It became our Thing. Other people would watch our exchange in horror, but we were cool. Just the same, I wouldn’t recommend it.

      Bottom line, some people use “young lady” thoughtlessly out of long habit, but it comes off rather disparaging regardless of intent.

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    44. Jaydee*

      The only situation I can think of where it would be even vaguely appropriate to refer to someone in the workplace as “young lady” would be if you’re talking about an intern or an employee in a part-time, temporary, seasonal, or work experience type job who is genuinely young for your workplace and falls in that gray area where someone might otherwise call her a girl (don’t do that). Like “Amelia is the young lady interning with the marketing team.” And that’s only appropriate because I can see people equally using “young man” in the same situation “Andre is the young man working in the front office this summer.”

      Using it directly to you in an email is bizarre. Like, I genuinely can’t think of a context that could possibly make that make sense.

      Reply ↓
    45. A in the Midwest USA*

      You’ve mentioned (in the threads) that the applicants were referring to you in the 3rd Person. In that context, I’m wondering why they wouldn’t have just used “person” or another generic term?

      Is the gendered language typical in a UK (or even European) Cover Letter?
      Would it be normal to receive it written as, “The *man* (-or- *woman*) who is in charge of the hiring process/who will be reviewing this resume…”

      IMO, referring to you as “young lady” seems bizarrely unprofessional. It’s also insulting when they can easily do a bit of research to find publicly available professional information to see that you’re older than them (which I doubt they did).

      I’m wondering if both applicants used an AI Tool to write their cover letters, since you have received it from 2 different people? If so, neither applicant edited the finished result appropriately & it shows that they may lack the knowledge to make sure the finished result contained only suitable business language. This could show a lack of business norms on their part.

      Alternatively… Did they both attended the same misguided/out of touch job skills training? (Getting bad advice from those types of programs seems to be normal worldwide.)

      As a woman, I can’t understand how a woman writing to another woman (regardless of the age of either) wouldn’t think that using terms like “young lady” could/would come across in a very condescending way &/or that the recipient would find it derogatory.

      I don’t blame you at all for being offended & I would feel the same. Honestly, the temptation would be very high to respond by writing back & referring to them as “Young Lady”, including a note to point out how inappropriate it is in a business context (I wouldn’t, but…). ;)

      When professionally referencing someone you don’t know in the 3rd person, I can’t understand why anyone would use *anything* that isn’t neutral/non-gendered, especially as it’s not an uncommon practice in today’s society to correctly use everyone’s preferred pronouns.

      I’ve written a lot of cover letters &/or introductions for job applications &/or submitting my resume over the past 30+ years. I have never (& would never) have stated the person’s gender in the body of the letter any way, never mind using a diminutive or cutesy term (like “young lady”, “honey”, etc.).

      The only gendered line I’ve ever previously written (in the whole letter) is the “Dear Ms./Mr. XYZ” or “Dear Sir or Madam”. Now, I wouldn’t even do that if there were no pronouns specified.

      IMO, there’s very few people who can use “young lady” or “young man” when speaking & have it come across in a *nice* way.

      IMO, it’s only ‘neutral’ if you are using it as a descriptor when speaking about someone to another person, “There’s a young lady in a blue jacket with brown hair in the lobby looking for Jane in Sales.” (I also think that the definition of ‘young’ depends on the person giving the description as well as who they’re speaking to.)

      As other commenters have mentioned, in the US it’s normally used as a spoken scolding/correction, occasionally sarcastically, but easily in a mean/demeaning way -AND- context wholly depends & the relationships of the people (correction of a young child vs. scolding the cats vs. funny sarcasm towards another adult vs. supervisor correcting an adult employee).

      Even when using it towards young children, it’s used mostly as a reprimand, the most common exception is when it’s used as an attention request when speaking to a group under the age of 16-18, (“Young Ladies, please line up here, etc.”).

      I’m not offended to be called “Young Lady” when it’s an elder person who is nicely speaking to me (typically for some assistance &/or to give a compliment), as I *am* considerably younger than them & I can tell it’s their way of getting my attention &/or acknowledging me without saying, “Hey You”. If I’m shopping, it’s not uncommon to hear, “Excuse me young lady, can you please help with EFG?”

      Of course, the exception to the above is the younger or older (than me)/elderly man who’s acting inappropriately, making sexual comments, &/or in a predatory way. In my case, it’s almost always been an older man who seems to feel entitled to say whatever they want without consequences, since I’m female & should appreciate their “comments”. They tend to be unpleasantly surprised when I’m not appreciative & have zero issues with publicly embarrassing them as much as possible while *loudly* calling them out.

      Reply ↓
  2. shelly*

    HR Professionals, I’m genuinely curious about something and would love your insight.

    Why would an HR representative tell a candidate, “Our next steps are to have another virtual interview with the hiring manager and then bring you into the office. You’ll hear from me tomorrow or the next day at the latest, as she’s usually quick to respond with availability,” and then go completely silent?

    I sent a thank-you note that same day, followed up to express my continued interest in the role, and then, out of nowhere, I received a rejection email at 12:59 am. To add to the confusion, someone on the team for this role had been given my resume and was genuinely excited to have a recommendation since they mentioned they really needed strong candidates.

    I completely understand that not every candidate will move forward, and I know how to manage my expectations. But what I can’t figure out is — why set an expectation for next steps, promise follow-up, and then go silent? It feels unnecessarily misleading, and I’d love to understand why this happens.

    For context, the HR representative I spoke with wasn’t entry-level (about 15 years of experience according to LinkedIn) and was visibly multitasking during our interview. She even mentioned she was trying to get offers out before year-end, which made me feel like I was just a task on a list rather than a person being considered for a role.

    Again, I’m not trying to vent — I’m genuinely curious. Is there something going on behind the scenes that candidates don’t understand? I’d love to hear from those with experience in the field.

    Reply ↓
    1. Rosyglasses*

      I did have that happen to me before where I was a referral and their system kept rejecting me because it didn’t flag that I had some of the required experience on their end – so in my case, I followed up directly to confirm that I was not moving forward because the rejection came at a time that didn’t seem to match with business hours and they were able to then confirm it was a software mistake.

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    2. Name (Required)*

      When I was doing recruiting, I was often the last person to hear that a job had already been filled or had been closed. So it may be that the HR rep contacted the hiring manager to set up the next interview and was told that the job opening no longer existed.
      Sorry this happened to you, but I don’t think it’s uncommon.

      Reply ↓
      1. anonymous anteater*

        to add to this, if you are talking about a big organization, let’s say 400+ employees, then you might indeed just be a number or to-do item for that HR person. This is not indicative of how a company, manager or team values and treats employees. It’s just that it’s a big place with many different departments that do different things, and centralized HR is not an expert in teapot design or manufacturing or sales. They are interacting with you as the owner of the logistics of recruiting, but they might be hiring 40 other people at the same time.

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    3. Sloanicota*

      I mean, an inexperienced hiring person will often be too transparent – “I need to talk to one more person, but they’re pretty quick, and I should be able to get back to you ASAP” – that is kindly meant, but those needed to be “inside thoughts,” not what she shared with you. I have learned to stonewall candidates, unfortunately – it is kindest *not* to set up expectations I can’t deliver on. The complications that go into making offers are complex and higher-ups won’t be rushed, even if it seems to you, lower in the ranks, that it’s fairly straightforward at this point. One person is out of the office, finance needs to weigh in twice, they’re stuck between two good candidates and need to discuss it, etc. I get it sucks to be disappointed and people will ALWAYS feel a bit badly treated/miffed when they don’t get what they want (been on both sides of that one) but maybe you can reframe this as “she tried to be kind and give me all the info she had, but it backfired and she got my hopes up.”

      Reply ↓
    4. Sneaky Squirrel*

      I think you’d be in the right if you were venting – since they had spoken to you directly, the recruiter should offer the courtesy of updating you if something about the job opportunity at that stage.

      I can think of a number of reasons why they may have changed their mind about interviewing you – hiring manager was too busy to continue interviews, budget changes, no longer need the role, hiring manager left the company, role somehow got filled by someone else. I don’t think that excuses the fact that you’re left in the dark thinking that you were going to get next steps. A good recruiter should update you even if the update is that they don’t have an update yet.

      However, recruiters are also fallible. They’re juggling sometimes 10, 15, 20 roles at the same time all with competing needs for follow up between multiple candidates, hiring mangers, interviewers. Sometimes these things just get missed.

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    5. Rejection*

      happens all the time. Hiring manager may be out or busy in terms of not getting back to you in the promised timeline. They might have had a unexpected hiring freeze, decided not to fill the position, wound up with an internal transfer in an environment that gives internal candidates preference, or any number of other reasons for the unexpected rejection.

      Just be happy they followed up at all and move on.

      Reply ↓
    6. learnedthehardway*

      Well, it could have been a mistake that you were rejected – sounds like someone on the hiring team wants to interview you. Mistakes happen. Esp. when someone is multi-tasking.

      Or, perhaps the person you initially spoke with was sure the hiring manager would want to meet you and was wrong about that.

      It’s possible that they tell every candidate what the process looks like. If you asked, they’d probably answer – whether they were going to move forward or not.

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    7. ecnaseener*

      It sounds like it was just imprecise wording on her part. She did get back to you within a couple days, after all.

      What she meant was, “Our next steps [for the candidates the hiring manager wants to interview] are to have another virtual interview with the hiring manager and then bring you [those selected candidates, who may include you] into the office. You’ll hear from me [one way or the other (and if it’s a rejection it’ll come from the system email but I still count that as you hearing from me)] tomorrow or the next day at the latest, as she’s usually quick to respond with availability [and with decisions on which candidates to move forward].”

      Why wasn’t she more precise? Could be simple carelessness, could be she cares more about keeping an upbeat and welcoming tone, could be that she really expected you to move forward and didn’t think there was any reason to allude to the other possibility.

      Reply ↓
      1. Bike Walk Barb*

        That was my thought. A generic description of next steps got personalized as “this will happen to you”.

        We close interviews by being very clear that we’ll communicate with everyone to let them know the outcome. We describe next steps but never as a promised action. “We’ll be moving to a next round of interviews with successful candidates” isn’t “You’ll be moving to the next round of interviews.”

        We always say “You’ll hear from us either way.” That’s the only kind thing to do to someone who has been through an interview. The places that never say another word to a candidate after an actual interview just baffle me. At least that wasn’t the case here.

        Reply ↓
        1. This Old House*

          I had an interview once with a former colleague who had recommended me for a position they were hiring for, and their boss. The person I knew kept saying, “You’ll do this, you’ll do that, you could start next month” while the boss kept saying “The successful candidate will do this, the successful candidate will do that, the successful candidate could start next month.” It was not quite clear whether they were not aligned on whether they were not quite aligned yet on whether I would be getting an offer, or whether they were just not on the same page with how precise to be with their language. It was interesting to see both styles in the same conversation.

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    8. Drought*

      It’s Christmas and HM is out of office. HM literally broke her leg the second after HR told you next steps. HR had a family thing crop up and is out unexpectedly. They love you so much they are updating the job description to hire you even though they already hired for the roll. HR was mistaken about the timeline. They are planning to reject you but aren’t good at following up with non-hoter candidates.

      I’ve literally had each of these happen to me. Best bet is move on and assume you didn’t get the role.

      Reply ↓
    10. Girasol*

      After interviews began, the hiring manager’s boss raised a fit because the hiring manager did not go through proper channels to get the staffing request approved. He insists that the whole thing be cancelled. The HR person is tearing their hair out trying to figure out whether the hiring manager failed to make a proper request or whether the grand boss is having one of his tantrums again. Either way, is a new employee needed or not? HR person’s boss tracks hiring speed and HR person is afraid that this mess will mean a poor evaluation and no raise this year. With all the stress the HR person has temporarily forgotten the promise made to contact you when it seemed like the whole process was going to be a piece of cake. No, seriously, don’t take it personally. So many things can happen that have nothing to do with anything the candidate did or didn’t do.

      Reply ↓
  3. Drama Alpaca*

    I’ve managed to stay out of workplace drama at my current job until now. A situation has come up where I need to pick sides, and I think everyone is being ridiculous. So, any advice or commiseration? For context, this is a field where many people view their jobs as central to their identity.

    I have a new boss, and this person is making significant process changes. These changes seem unnecessary, a bit disruptive, and leaning toward micromanagement of something we’ve successfully managed as individuals for years.

    However, it’s not my job to decide on processes, and the new boss may have insights into areas where we aren’t as successful as I think, or areas where past approaches no longer work. I’ve followed the new directives, and so far, it’s not a huge challenge. I don’t get it, but the new processes didn’t take much more time or effort on my end, and I can see a potential path toward some positive changes if we get the knots worked out.

    The rest of my department feels *much* more strongly. We’ve had multiple meetings in which people have threatened to quit, stated they feel disrespected as both humans and professionals, and that they cannot ethically abide by these new process changes. I don’t think they’re exaggerating for the most part; they are genuinely distressed.

    Here’s the challenge. My coworkers want to do exactly what Alison always suggests: approach the new boss as a group and demand change.
    Except… we’ve already done that. The new boss knows we’re not happy! And I cannot honestly join the group in saying I feel personally insulted or ethically compromised. I don’t feel that way, and I think that’s a huge overreaction. We’ve said our piece, the new boss responded, and I’m more than ready to take the L and move on. The rest of my department is digging in their collective heels.

    So I either break our unified front by being honest, or I quietly support my coworkers at the expense of my own integrity (and also likely expense of my potential raise next year, since I’d be refusing to do part of my job).
    What to do?

    Reply ↓
    1. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

      shut down. just stay out of it. do not lie just to serve a united front. when asked, just say “i would like to stay out of it”. nothing more.

      Reply ↓
      1. OrdinaryJoe*

        Yes! This! Gray rock the situation and those that are wanting to cause drama. Head down and just do your work, following the boss’s instructions. Rinse and repeat … I understand where you’re coming from but I’m just trying to avoid drama/getting involved right now.

        Reply ↓
      2. Sloanicota*

        I agree. Be transparent with your colleagues that you think they’re making too much of it and don’t wish to be part of the discussion. Be aware that this can set up a tricky dynamic, especially if they do happen to score any benefit that also helps you without you having stuck *your* neck out.

        Reply ↓
        1. Observer*

          Be transparent with your colleagues that you think they’re making too much of it

          I don’t think I would even go so far. “I don’t want to get into this” or “I don’t see it that way, and I don’t want to discuss it any longer” are more than enough.

          Reply ↓
          1. Rex Libris*

            Agreed. Trying to explain the error of their ways to overly emotionally invested people will just cause more drama. At most, “I’m sorry you feel that way, but I’m most interested in continuing to have a paycheck.” is enough explanation.

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    2. MsM*

      I’d just tell the rest of the group you’re sorry: you’re not going to stand against their efforts, but you just don’t feel strongly enough about the changes to sign on. If I were the manager in this situation, I wouldn’t consider a single team member opting out of the collective protest proof that I didn’t still need to find a way to address the complaints. And if your manager does, they were going to find some other excuse to ignore the problem anyway.

      Reply ↓
      1. Margaret Cavendish*

        you’re sorry: you’re not going to stand against their efforts, but you just don’t feel strongly enough about the changes to sign on. I like this wording – it’s honest and transparent without getting back into the pros and cons of the argument.

        I wonder if there’s anyone else on your team who feels the same way? Is it literally the entire team who is participating in the drama, or could there be one or two others who feel as you do? Either they strongly agree with the manager or they don’t care one way or another, but they’re getting caught up in the drama regardless. Those people might be your allies. It’s kind of the opposite of what Alison usually suggests (and what the team is doing) – instead of pushing back as a group, you would be *declining* to push back as a group!

        If you get enough people who are neutral or positive, the people who are Strongly Opposed might tone it down a bit – or they might not, but it should at least give your manager a clearer picture of what’s going on. Good luck!

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    3. Times New Sicilian*

      I would say stick to your principles, but also try to present a balanced, compassionate, yet slightly noncommittal response if you’re asked your opinion. Some of the ways you’ve phrased it in this comment seem useful—acknowledging that it is a big change, that you think your colleagues are genuine, but you are personally willing to comply and hope for a positive outcome. And if people press you on the issue, just saying “I’m sorry, but I don’t feel the same way and I don’t feel comfortable misrepresenting my own experience” and moving on.

      Reply ↓
    4. A non-mouse*

      The phrase to look into is “disagree and commit”. Your coworkers have tried disagreeing and it sounds like your boss isn’t going to budge. I would try wording it to your coworkers as, “We raised our concerns and it sounds like nothing is going to change from the current course. Let’s give it an honest try for the next 3 months [or whatever] and if it still makes sense, we can try raising it again once we have actually lived the new process.” And to your boss, you can frame it as, “This new process is working out okay for me so far, AND I think there’s room to make it a net benefit once we work out some of the kinks. What is the best way to work with you on that once we’ve given it a shot?”

      Reply ↓
      1. Drama Alpaca*

        Initially, that was the planned response. “Okay, we’ll try it, and if it goes badly, then we have actual proof and will push back again.” So, I complied and did the new thing. I can’t speak to the outcome yet.

        Turns out no one else did, and now the collective decision is to refuse the new process entirely. I’ve already done it, and I’m the only one who did, which both the boss and my coworkers know. So I’m nicely stuck in the middle between a process I think is unnecessary and a reaction I think is Too Much.

        Reply ↓
        1. A non-mouse*

          Yikes, and how frustrating for you to be the only one to actually try the new process. Given that, I agree with some of the other commenters that your best bet is probably to nope out of any sort of future group action :(

          Reply ↓
        2. Tinamedte*

          Is there some way to get leverage out of your unique position? As in, you’d prefer to stick to the original agreement you all had and actually try this out for some time, especially since you’re already well on your way.

          Good luck!

          Reply ↓
        3. Bitte Meddler*

          Oof.

          Well then it’s probably time to explain to your co-workers that there are ALWAYS things we have to do for our jobs that we think are dumb, unnecessary, inefficient, etc., but as long as it’s not illegal or unethical, we do them anyway because we like our paychecks.

          You did the process, you didn’t burst into flames or need to book an emergency therapy appointment. They’ll survive it, too.

          In the past, when co-workers (and I) have grumbled amongst ourselves about dumb processes, I always point out that we’re not being asked to dig ditches in 110F weather with no shade. We’re being asked to click a different series of buttons in the system, or fill out a form (physical or online), or run something by one extra person before completing an action, or whatever mundane thing it is.

          So, if I were you, I’d try to help them get some perspective on this.

          And I absolutely would not join them in saying, “Change this or we quit.”

          Reply ↓
    5. Redaktorin*

      Is it possible to discuss this separately with your boss to let them know you’re honestly fine with the changes, then just smile and nod whenever your more dramatic coworkers start going on about the Trauma of the New Processes? I’d probably do that.

      Reply ↓
      1. Potato Patahto*

        I agreed with you until you said “just smile and nod whenever your more dramatic coworkers start going on about the Trauma of the New Processes.”

        That doesn’t seem in the spirit of how LW listed their perspective.

        Reply ↓
        1. Redaktorin*

          You mean the LW who wrote that the process changes may be necessary, everyone is being ridiculous, and their coworkers are having a huge overreaction?

          Nah, I think I got it.

          Reply ↓
          1. Drama Alpaca*

            Yup. It’s a lot a drama. I’m trying to be understanding, but I’m pretty out of patience with everyone involved. That’s probably a personal flaw on my end, but it’s the only perspective I have.

            Reply ↓
            1. Redaktorin*

              Meh, you’re human, and this sort of behavior is sooooo tedious.

              Just don’t let the coworkers see how annoyed you are.

              Reply ↓
    6. learnedthehardway*

      I would call out the over-reactions – the new manager has a different leadership style and has changed some processes. People on the team need to be realistic about what is and is not insulting or ethically compromising. Change is difficult, it’s not always needed or well-planned, but over-reacting is not an effective way to deal, and it just undermines the credibility of the people objecting to the changes.

      If there is a genuine regulatory, compliance, or ethical reason to NOT adopt some of the changes, that should be addressed with the manager and their manager (if needed).

      Otherwise, the new manager is within their authority to make changes – and as you pointed out that if the changes work, then there would be potential benefits. I would be clear with your coworkers that you are not supporting resistance to change simply because you don’t like change.

      Sounds like the manager could do a bit more change management and develop more buy-in with the team, but that’s on them to figure out.

      Reply ↓
    7. Observer*

      So I either break our unified front by being honest, or I quietly support my coworkers at the expense of my own integrity

      I’m not sure why you see it as an issue to break the unified “front”. A front is good if what is behind it is also unified. But in this case, it’s just true. The group is not unified. You don’t agree with them. So don’t join the group.

      Now, I would agree that you should also not declare your allegiance to New Manager per se. But I don’t think you really do need to “choose a side” either. Don’t sign any petitions, add your name to emails or anything like that. If asked, you should say “I don’t really get it but I also don’t think it’s all that bad.” And that’s it. No commentary on the boss or the coworkers.

      Reply ↓
    8. Hiring Manager (they/them)*

      To your coworkers “I’ve already said my piece – I’ve made it clear what the issues are with the new system and how it impacts my job. I support you all voicing your opinions again, but I won’t be participating in round 2.”

      You can always lie (this one never really feels like real lying though) and say that life is super hectic and you don’t feel like adding fuel to the fire; if you’d prefer a less direct route.

      And I don’t think it’s picking sides – not joining in the group for a useless round 2 of complaints isn’t taking your boss’s side, it’s just not actively pushing back against him.

      Reply ↓
      2. Drama Alpaca*

        This is helpful framing, thank you! I was able to say roughly, “I’ve said my piece, I already complied, I stand by that, and I’ll stay out of the way if you continue without me.”
        We’ll see…

        Reply ↓
    9. Hyaline*

      So, the one circumstance in which I would say to table your personal apathy for the whole thing and join/maintain the united front would be if the changes were not terribly burdensome/problematic/infantilizing *to you* because of the nature of your work or the parts that you did, but they truly were for your colleagues. Like if it’s “everyone who uses the Teapot Tracking system must now do X” and you happen to not use that system, but you see how the changes are awful, then I think the right thing to do is back up your colleagues, not dissimilar to if you were the only man in the department and the new boss was misogynistic. Sure, it doesn’t affect you personally, but it’s still wrong.

      I’m not seeing from your question that that’s happening, so I would agree with others that said to just bow out of the outrage if your personal feelings are that it’s overblown and that continued resistance is not only unhelpful but probably detrimental. Sometimes I think that there’s a bandwagon effect with stuff like this–people are upset, but not THAT upset until they start egging each other on. When that happens, one person holding the line of “yeah, I don’t like it, but is it really worth…” can actually be a voice of reason that gets everyone back on track, or even helps them focus their protest to actionable, discrete items. Acknowledge the feelings but you don’t have to agree with the conclusions (“I agree that it’s frustrating, but in practice, I find the changes manageable.”)

      Reply ↓
      1. Drama Alpaca*

        It affects me to the same degree as my coworkers, but my philosophy of work may differ from theirs. Like I said, this is a field where people tend to make their job a big part of their identity. I suspect many of my coworkers feel their knowledge and contributions are being personally attacked, and I don’t blame them. This change wasn’t presented especially well.

        I figure that I’m demonstrably good at my job though, and if the new boss wants to spend their time double checking and rearranging what I’ve done well for years, that’s their business. I get paid either way. It’s no longer worth the energy to fight this change, but my coworkers still want my participation.

        Reply ↓
        1. I own one tenacious plant*

          ‘I get paid either way’ is the attitude I aspire to!

          I like the grey rock recommendations. That or have the most blasé response – some of the process is good, some is about the same, some parts need work.

          Reply ↓
    10. This Old House*

      FWIW, I don’t think that what Alison actually always suggests is “approach the new boss as a group and demand change.” I think it tends to be “push back as a group,” but that’s not really the same thing as “demanding change.” And it sounds like you’ve already pushed back as a group, with no luck.

      Reply ↓
    11. Drought*

      Stay out of it. Don’t go to the group thing. Clarify with the ring leaders that you aren’t up for going as a group to this one BEFORE they schedule.

      Worse thing you can do is counter the group in the moment. It makes it seem like potentially everyone feels the way you do and manaent can glomp onto that.

      Reply ↓
    12. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      I’ve been on all sides of “process changes” (had them imposed on me, imposed them myself on teams, come in to sort things out after a failed process change, etc…) and heard all kinds of objections to them from teams in the way you describe, but what jumps out to me is that they said they cannot “ethically abide by” the changes and that they are genuinely distressed rather than just objecting because they are averse to change.

      “Cannot ethically abide” is a pretty strong statement – Is there anything of substance behind it, even though you disagree? It’s much stronger than the more usual objections like “the old way worked, why do we have to change”, “this will be much slower and isn’t an improvement”, “this is bad for our job security”, etc.

      If you are really sure there’s no ethical implications of this – next time they bring this up with you (which I’m sure will be soon!) I would try and convince them once more about why they are wrong, and if they still won’t be convinced, state that you are dropping the subject and won’t engage further with it.

      Reply ↓
      1. RagingADHD*

        This is my question, too. I encounter a lot of folks (including commenters here) who throw around the word “ethical” very loosely, sometimes even just meaning “things I don’t like.” (Like the time someone claimed it was “unethical” for a senior coworker to to keep working in their job when a younger candidate wanted a promotion. I still am not sure whether they thought the senior person should be forced into retirement or just die to get out of the way.)

        Are there codified or generally recognized ethics associated with your job, and does this new process raise valid questions about whether it meets those standards?

        Reply ↓
      2. Drama Alpaca*

        I can see where they’re coming from – this process involves money, nuance, and several elements that generate really strong opinions. I don’t find the new process unethical, and I think it takes an uncharitable interpretation to see it that way, but I do get it. I just don’t agree. Maybe I’m wrong! Maybe they see something I don’t! But right now, I can’t pretend to see it that way.

        Reply ↓
    13. not nice, don't care*

      “I really don’t have the bandwidth to engage more than I already have, given the response to our group meeting. I get your distress and I support your efforts to improve the situation, but I need to take a back seat going forward”.

      Reply ↓
  4. Darlingpants*

    Do any other low level managers hate review time? I feel like I have no decision power about my reports ratings: I recommended “exceptional” and asked to promote but I fully expect to get shut down and then I’m the one who is supposed to gracefully explain why they get a “meets expectations” without blaming the hire ups who actually get to make decisions about how many “exceptional” ratings the bigger group is allowed to give.

    Is this normal or is my company worse than average on this?

    Reply ↓
    1. Half a Brain*

      I think this is pretty common, and also sucks. Is something I think about when we get the advice to advocate with your boss for stuff; the problem is, even if they really agree, they can’t do anything. But good employees will definitely start looking after this. An old boss told me she could only get one raise / promotion a year and this wasn’t my year, but she’d try next year, and I actually appreciated the transparency (and she did get me next year).

      Reply ↓
    2. Casey*

      I have this too. It’s very stupid. The higher-ups have numbers for what your team’s average review score needs to be (scale of 1-5 where 3 is meets expectations) but they won’t tell you those numbers upfront. So you send in the reviews and then get back “these seem a little high… is Bob really a 4 and not a 3.5?”, repeat until the secret number is met. THEN of course HR gives you a mandatory yearly training about how it’s so important to stand behind your review and not suggest to your directs that their scores are set by the powers that be.

      Reply ↓
    3. Lissa Landon*

      Are you being clear about your rationale? At my workplace, you’re not getting an Exceeds Expectations unless you absolutely blew it out of the water – several examples of excellent above and beyond work along with ongoing excellence in your everyday work. It’s really hard to exceed standards, because the standards are high. We also meet with our boss and Human Resources to discuss any Exceeds reviews, and need to explain why it was an extraordinary year. The biggest reason people don’t exceed when they really excelled is due to a lack of the clear explanation of the value they added over the year. If you think you’ve done that and they disagree, then they should also be clear about why they disagree and what your staff member could have done differently.

      Reply ↓
      1. Darlingpants*

        They’ve both been given responsibilities that are one step up on the title ladder than their actual titles, and if they won’t let me promote them then I think the only fair thing is to rate them exceeds, since they’re exceeding their title.

        Reply ↓
        1. Parenthesis Guy*

          Do your bosses agree with that assessment that they’ve both been given responsibilities one step up on the title ladder?

          Reply ↓
    5. Super Duper Anon*

      I am not a manager, but as someone being managed, I understand when this happens. As long as you are as transparent as you can be, and are a decent manager outside of review time, I know it isn’t your fault and that companies do this kind of stuff all the time. I can get a pretty good read on when it is a bad boss being bad vs company malarky.

      Reply ↓
    6. Forest Hag*

      I hated review time for many reasons, but when it comes to the ratings – my leadership in my (former) job wanted to be consistent with the criteria for ratings, so they would meet with all the managers and level-set things. My department had a history of ratings all over the place – some managers never gave anything higher than a 2, and some never gave anything less than a 5 (out of 5). So I get that they wanted to be consistent and make sure scores were truly earned, but the outcomes never really changed. If someone earned a low score, nothing would happen other than “hey work better pls”. If someone earned a high score, they got “you’re so amazing and we love you and you’re so valuable…but we can’t reward you because Reasons. Keep being awesome!”. Everyone got the same annual “merit” increase across the board (they never called it a COL increase, I assume to reserve the right to yank it if someone didn’t “merit” it, or to prevent employees from asking for merit increases in addition to it).

      I think your company is fairly normal in that they want the ratings to fall along a bell curve, but it still sucks to be the one who actually has to deliver all this to their employees. One of the reasons I’m no longer in management!

      Reply ↓
    7. Msd*

      I once rated a small group of my employees as “successful” (a 3 out of a 5 scale rating) which they were only to have my manager and an HR rep knock them all down to “does not meet/2” rating. They didn’t even know these people but lowered their rating because this particular goup of people worked on legacy technology and company policy was that company ratings had to follow a bell curve with strict percentages for each rating. my manager decided these guys didn’t really matter. I wasn’t part of the decision to lower their ratings but it was my job to deliver and justify the ratings. It was not fun especially since I had to act like I had given them the bad ratings. Of course the ratings were also used to determine raises and bonuses.

      Reply ↓
    8. Sneaky Squirrel*

      The fact that your higher ups are pushing back on ratings is a sign that their rating scales and goal setting expectations are not well enough defined. Performance goals should be easily measurable for the work that the employee is doing and equitable across people who do the same work. You should be able to easily explain why someone met/exceeded expectations in a way that is not subjective to any party.

      Reply ↓
    9. WantonSeedStitch*

      In my workplace, almost everyone gets “meets expectations” or the equivalent, and if we want to mark someone as below or above that, we need to let our ED know, and they and HR have to approve it. We have to put in a lot of specifics about why they deserve the rating. Taking on and successfully completing big projects is often a big part of it.

      Reply ↓
    10. Jan Levinson Gould*

      I flat out tell people that I advocated for a higher rating for them, but because of bell-curve stupidity, they got an “achieves” and those decisions are beyond my pay grade. No reason to not point the finger at the real decision makers. I do that with the hope that as the messenger, I only get shot with a small handgun instead of an AR-15.

      Reply ↓
    11. Parenthesis Guy*

      I’d say it’s normal.

      I worked at one place where they analyzed the likelihood of something happening. There was one metric that categorized things as having a 10-25% chance. I looked at it closely, and noticed that the things in this category were happening at 40% of the time clearly suggesting that this likelihood was too low. People weren’t happy about this argument because they were arguing that they did such a good job that they simply did better than average.

      It’s the same thing with performance reviews. In general, people like their own employees so they grade them higher than they should.

      Reply ↓
    12. Lady Lessa*

      I share your frustrations, because I am in a similar boat.

      GRIN, what happened to me, is that I was informed that I was responsible for managing my two coworkers at a company meeting. Our VP didn’t think to mention it to me privately.

      Reply ↓
    13. Ginger Cat Lady*

      It’s pretty common AND it’s awful. I learned years ago that there’s no point in doing anything more than bare bones meeting expectations, because hell if the C suite will allow it to be reflected in my evaluations and pay!

      Reply ↓
    14. Margaret Cavendish*

      Oh heavens, yes! I have only four direct reports, but they’re on two different cycles, and between mid-year and year-end I feel like I’m *always* doing performance reviews.

      And same as you, I have very little autonomy into what actually goes in them – everyone gets Meets Expectations unless there’s a huge amount of documentation otherwise. Any rating of Exceeds needs to be defended first to my director, then to her boss, then to the entire C-suite – there’s also a god-tier level above Exceeds, but I don’t think anyone has ever gotten that. There are two levels below Meets as well, and I would love to give one of my reports Needs Improvement, because he’s not terrible but it would be a stretch to say he’s actually “meeting” expectations…and I’m not allowed to do that either. I get that we want things to be quantifiable and transparent, but what exactly is the point if we’re just giving everyone a 3 regardless?

      Reply ↓
    15. Generic Name*

      Yeah, that’s how it works at my huge company. I’ve made my peace with it. It’s a much better process than my old company, where you had to fill out a 12 page assessment form. Both you and your manager had to fill out a form, and then during the official review, you compared the rating you gave yourself with the rating your manager gave you. Every rating was required to have a comment to back it up. It was a ridiculously onerous process, and it also felt like you were playing a mind game. Don’t rate yourself too high and look delusional but also don’t rate yourself too low and have them question your performance when they wouldn’t otherwise.

      Reply ↓
    16. Bitte Meddler*

      My managers have always been super transparent with me: “Bitte, you’re doing a great job. I will rate you as ‘Exceeds Expectations’. But then all of us managers will have ‘calibration’ meetings with HR where they tell us that, companywide, only 15% of people can be rated above ‘Meets Expectations’ and I will have to downgrade you. Our department is given a bucket of money for raises, and I *will* fight for you. Just know that the other five managers are fighting for their people, too, which usually means we spread the money pretty evenly across all staff.”

      Formal performance reviews are meaningless time-wasters, IMO.

      Reply ↓
    17. Rex Libris*

      Coming from a public library, this is one of the crazier things I’ve ever heard, but given the rest of the comments, must be pretty typical? In our world (at least in my region) the review is pretty much whatever the supervisor/manager decides it is.

      Reply ↓
    18. Ama*

      I always hated not the standard process but our process for requesting promotions. At former employer I was required to do all the work to conduct the review, including writing the assessment of my reports’ work and how I thought they did, but if I wanted to push for more than our standard “met expectations” raise (i.e. a promotion and accompanying leveling up raise) I had to write up an additional letter with more reasoning and most of the time senior management would say (within less than 24 hours) “actually we don’t agree that this person is ready for promotion, so no.”

      It felt like they made you go through the process even when they never intended to say yes and weren’t going to listen to any of the extra data and rationale you put in your letter and they never gave me any feedback as to why other than “we don’t think they’re ready yet.” I never asked for promotions for my reports unless I truly felt they deserved it so trying to guess when I would be able to actually get one approved was so frustrating.

      Also joke’s on them, the last report they (repeatedly) denied a promotion — both she and I ended up giving notice on the same day. She never knew I’d asked for a promotion for her and been turned down but I had told her that my advocacy on her behalf for some other issues weren’t getting anywhere and I would be a reference if she wanted to leave (in part because by that point I knew I needed to go, too).

      Reply ↓
    19. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I hate it and this is one of the reasons I’m very pleased to be stepping out of my managerial role about five minutes before the start of the review process. I will have to submit notes for my team members, but someone else (probably my current boss) will have to do the talking.

      Reply ↓
    20. Katie*

      I haaaaaaaaaaaaaate the way my company does reviews. Only a certain percent can get exceptional and to determine that percentage we get all of us together and make a case for our person (there were 70!! people to go through) and then people who know nothing about their jobs and what they do year apart the argument. Then the lead for level (who again knows nothing about their job and what they do beyond the 3 min spiel) makes the final decision about their merit.

      I am all for merit raises and agree some people deserve better raises than others but hate that the decision is being made by a three min story to someone who knows nothing about the work.

      Reply ↓
    21. allathian*

      I’m grateful to my boss who openly acknowledges that the situationis what it is. Our upper management isn’t perfect by any means but at least they accept and acknowledge their responsibility for decisions that employees don’t like.

      Reply ↓
    22. Wordybird*

      My company technically allows managers to rank as “exceeds expectations” but if you rank anyone that way, you have to send in a written explanation as to why + it has to be approved by the entire C-suite which only approves “exceeds expectations” in very rare situations (like if it’s a badly kept secret that someone they deem important wants to leave & they need to justify giving them more money and a promotion). This is why most non-managers in the company spend approximately 45 seconds on their yearly review because they know 99% of the workforce will receive an across-the-board “meets expectations” and maybe a COL raise.

      Reply ↓
    23. I Have RBF*

      This is very common. My manager told me last year that he needs to just about write a novel worth of praise to give people anything above “meets expectations.”

      IMO, performance reviews with this stuff as an underlying constraint are a farce. Essentially, the highest you can get is “meets expectations”, so the top two grades functionally don’t exist. The bottom two, though, are really easy to get slammed into. So the “curve” is bent to start with, and biased against the employee. (Fuck Jack Welch anyway.)

      Reply ↓
  5. snowglobe*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to set clear KPIs/metrics when a team doesn’t have set duties. We have an in-house support team who field queries ranging from ‘this software isn’t working’ to ‘the client wants to know if we can do X, can we?’. We don’t currently have anyway of tracking or reporting on whether a query was complex or simple or recording how long something took. We don’t have a budget for a ticketing software and I’m hesitate to ask the team to start manually tracking as that takes time away from their actual jobs. It may be we have a rock and hard-place here. But does anyone have any ideas?

    Reply ↓
    1. snowglobe*

      To clarify. The KPIs are something that the team have asked for – not something we’re looking to impose without reason.

      Reply ↓
      1. dude, who moved my cheese?*

        Can you say more about what your team is trying to solve for? What structure or value they want the KPIs to add? Whether they have any specific tasks or metrics in mind? That will probably get you closer to choosing the right ones.

        Reply ↓
    2. Rosyglasses*

      When I managed a similar situation (marketing tech / customer support), the KPI was 2 business days to reply / complete requests with a 95% accuracy rate for Tier 1-2 tasks, and 4-5 business days to reply / same accuracy rate for Tier 3 tasks. We tiered them based on complexity (is this a simple website update, or is there complex coding that has to happen, or are there decisions that need cross-functional support before moving forward) and somewhat based on average time to complete (although that was an oft moving target for a variety of reasons).

      It is challenging when you don’t have a way to actually collect data – which is the only way (in my opinion) to measure and report on a KPI. Metrics by their nature need data, and quantitative is much easier to measure than “well, I think we’re hitting our turnaround times…”

      Reply ↓
    3. DistantAudacity*

      Can you look at things like customer satisfaction, etc? Regularly poll your customer base (get a baseline!), and aim to keep the numbers at, say, a 3.8 (out of 5) or whatever is reasonable?

      Or look areas covered – are they steadym are you looking to expand etc?

      Team internal: competency/trainings, numbers on certifications, etc?

      Reply ↓
    4. Cookie Monster*

      I like Alison’s advice in the past of thinking of it this way: If the people doing these jobs were BAD at their jobs, what would happen? What would go wrong? That might help clarify exactly what your time is doing right (if they are performing well) and therefore might help think of ways to turn that into KPIs.

      Reply ↓
    5. Strive to Excel*

      What specific metrics does your team want KPIs for? It sounds like they’ve identified a problem they are having and would like to prevent it or at least figure out what’s happening. That should give you a starting point regarding what data to start tracking and reviewing.

      Reply ↓
      1. linger*

        It could also be just to have some quantifiable basis for making cases for raises and promotions.
        A useful starting point would be to ask the team how they would rate their peers’ work: what aspects do they think would be important to measure, and how would they weight those to get an overall score?

        Reply ↓
    6. Drought*

      Your team is telling you you need a tracking system. Either a customer trashed them constantly and they feel like you aren’t defending them adequately, or there is a slacker on the team not pulling their weight you haven’t noticed and the team wants you to see the numbers.

      Reply ↓
      1. Drought*

        Sorry hit send too soon.

        It can be as low res as having a shared inbox for all requests and tracking replies by Days since send. But since you seem a little out of water I. where to start I’d brainstorm with the team what tracking system within the tech you do have could work. You can track a lot with SharePoint, MS Forms, and MS Automate for example.

        Plus if your company has a ticketing system, it’s possible your group can be added with limited access. You won’t necessarily need to buy software just for your team.

        Hope this helps some. Good luck!

        Reply ↓
        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          You can do a lot with a shared Excel file (edit- tracking on), especially if you can put it on sharepoint.

          Reply ↓
    7. Another Kristin*

      Time to complete ticket – you could give each type of ticket a window of time for completion, then see how often staff completed them within that time frame. Customer satisfaction – do a simple thumbs up/thumbs down survey after ticket closure, was the customer happy or not? Re-opening – was the solution provided by the support team adequate or did the customer have to come back for the same issue?

      Not sure how you could do any of this without an ITSM system, but if your team is motivated to log their actions and quantify their output, I suppose you could do something semi-functional in Excel.

      Reply ↓
  6. Bonkers*

    I’m about to move to a new cube, in which my monitors will be directly across from huge windows. Moving the monitors is not an option, and the windows don’t have full black out shades (nor would I want to use them and deprive the whole space of natural light). Any suggestions for minimizing glare on my monitors?

    Reply ↓
    2. Mostly Managing*

      Strategically placed/movable plants?
      A large parasol attached to the back of your chair? (bonus points if it looks like a peacock tail!)
      Depending on the way the window faces, the light/glare will be better/worse at different times of day. If you have any control over when you schedule meetings that don’t need the monitors, put them at the worst time of day for seeing the screen.

      Reply ↓
      1. migrating coconuts*

        I think I now want huge swathes of peacock feathers on the back of my desk chair! Or maybe just one of those fan-backed wicker chairs with big cushions. :)

        Reply ↓
          1. Lana Kane*

            They don’t :( A coworker brought one in that they bought previously and when the rest of us wanted to get one too, we found they’re discontinued. But Amazon has some, uh, clip-on desk umbrellas? No clue what to call it! Not as cute as a leaf, though.

            Reply ↓
    3. Tuesday Tacos*

      Definitely get an anti-glare but make sure its also a privacy screen too. I would hate to have my screen facing out a window!

      Reply ↓
      1. Bonkers*

        It’s on the 4th floor, so I’m not too worried about peepers.

        I started looking at anti-glare films on Amazon, and they all have awful reviews. I guess I’m worried that they’re all just a scam, but that might be the best I can do…

        Reply ↓
    4. Box of Kittens*

      Rather than anti-glare for your monitor, you could also get some frosted film for the windows (even just the bottom half may help). It might be worth it to check with your facilities team to see if they can do it, if you’re not able to get some and add it yourself. I like the suggested plants option also.

      Reply ↓
    5. JSPA*

      There are also sill shelves that actively redirect light to the ceiling / further into the room (if the bottom of the window is reasonably high); supposedly light- redirecting films that do similar; and if the ledge is deep enough, you or facilities could rig tilted acrylic or polished metal mirrors on the sill to do same and to shade your desk (Note: avoid curves or any setup that focuses the light! you’re trying to redirect light, not start fires).

      Reply ↓
    6. Butt in Seat*

      I’m in the same situation. One odd thing that really helped, was putting strips of matte tape (just normal clear sticky tape, but the kind with a matte finish) over the very shiny black bezels of my monitors.

      It doesn’t do anything for the screen images themselves, but it *really* helped with the distracting “mirrors” that the bezels had become!

      Reply ↓
  7. Half a Brain*

    In my first job, I was trusted to manage my own emails and only cc-d my boss if there was a problem. Then my last two jobs in a row, the culture is to share everything. In part because of wild staff turnover. One job wanted to use only shared emails, like “managerAtXOrg” and my current boss (really small team) is a “cc everyone all the time” person. She also wants to slack constantly about every task either of us are working on, all day. Honestly I fear I’m way too entangled with her now and worry I would struggle to manage my own work in my next job. How much would you say this varies by office culture?

    Reply ↓
    1. Paint N Drip*

      I’d say it varies A LOT. In my current job, my boss would like to be CC’d on nothing but wants verbal updates when things come to his mind, and my former boss wanted to be CC’d on everything outside of a specific task and we only discussed things at review time – neither is perfect, for me at least.

      In the future you can choose to ask about it in interviews, as it can really speak to the team culture. I think it’s something that people are largely understanding about, so if you’re running into struggles adapting to your new workplace norms (especially if you’re over-sharing) there is plenty of grace extended.

      Reply ↓
    2. KitKat*

      I don’t know if it varies by industry, but I’ll say working in tech across 5 companies in the last decade or so it’s never been a thing. There are people who do this on their own as… I don’t know what, a power move? But I’ve never seen a leader require it.

      Reply ↓
    3. CherryBlossom*

      It really varies from office to office, but different industries tend to lean in certain directions. In my experience, more laid back environments like start-ups and creative fields are more hands-off, where as older and more regulated environments like finance and law tend to be more CC-Everyone focused.

      As for switching from one to the other, it’s always a bit of an adjustment for me but after a little while, I tend to ease into whatever they tend to prefer. I’m also not a big fan of CC-Everyone, but it is what it is.

      Reply ↓
      1. CTT*

        Yeah, I’m in law and it’s very much cc everyone all the time. Although I don’t think of that as not managing my own work, it’s just keeping people in the loop. OP, maybe it would be helpful to reframe it as that?

        Reply ↓
      2. Half a Brain*

        Haha that’s kind of what I’m worried about! In the beginning it bugged me (we’re so inefficient! Both working on everything together means there’s no productivity improvement with two of us!) and now I’ve just been trained to loop my boss in 100% of the time – like if I even get an email, I will often either forward it to boss or go immediately to slack to get her thoughts, whereas I know for sure in my old job I would have just taken the initiative to reply myself. It would almost seem “weird” or “secretive” to reply to my own emails now. I am job searching so I want to start trying to snap out of it!

        Reply ↓
        1. Friday Person*

          I had a very similar transition from my previous job (in which I had very little oversight) to my current one (in which everything is a discussion)! I try to think of it as just meaning that I have experience working with varying levels of independence or collaboration as needed.

          Reply ↓
  8. Times New Sicilian*

    Kind of a long question, but I think this is the sort of thing where crowd-sourcing advice would be helpful. For internal documents, how much does appropriate formatting matter—and what counts as “appropriate,” anyway?

    At my job, myself and one other staff member regularly produce short, 2-5 page documents dealing with particular subjects. The two of us and a third staff member are then responsible for using those documents to present to the public. My problem is that I find the documents produced by my coworker to be borderline unusable. They are not obviously unprofessional (appropriate fonts/font sizes/colors etc), but they have some formatting quirks that just don’t match with my brain.

    – Breaking up information into highly stratified multi-tiered lists, up to 5 levels of indentation, switching “levels” with virtually every single bullet point
    – Often using arrows rather than/in addition to standard bullet points
    – Using an equal sign in places were a colon or a hyphen would usually go
    – Using an ellipse to separate clauses rather than a comma
    – Overly-wordy explanations and frequent use of “corporate speak” and passive voice

    I realize most of these sound like small problems, but when I look at page of her writing, it really just looks like the letters are swimming in front of my eyes. The frequent indentations make it seem like her writing is full of “asides” and I have trouble identifying what information is ACTUALLY crucial. The spacing and narrowness of the arrows and equal signs are jarring and slow me down when I’m reading. I often find myself completely rewriting her documents and making my own personal version, which feels frustrating and inefficient.

    This type of document is relatively new in our department, and we will be having a meeting in the next few weeks to review it and standardize some procedures so we can bring all of them in line and go through a backlog of existing presentations that lack documentation. I am trying to decide how much I can try to bring my coworker in line with my own preferred formatting, which is more like:

    – Grouping facts of similar importance or sequential facts, with less frequent “asides”
    – (I looked back over past documentation and I tend to have 3 levels of indentation under each heading, and 2-5 bullet points in each level)
    – Using the standard circular/square bullet points
    – Using hyphens, colons, and semicolons to separate information
    – Using ellipses only to indicate missing information in quotes
    – Direct, succinct language

    At the same time, I know that note-taking and studying is something that is very personal! Presumably my coworker has developed these habits after a long time and they work for her. So how much of this can I push back on? Should I prioritize certain requests? Is there any diplomatic way to phrase this that isn’t just “my way is BETTER so let’s do it my way”? I am unsure how our third coworker (who uses these documents but does not produce them) feels about any of this, but we are also trying to take into account the fact that these documents may be used by more people in the future if/when there is staff turnover or if our department grows.

    Reply ↓
    1. CindyLouHoo*

      Here are a couple of things you can try…

      If you’re using Word, create templates for these documents. Work together so that everyone understands how to correctly use the templates (because not everyone uses them correctly).

      Create a style guide, and do it as a team. That way, you can all discuss how to write up and format different types of information.

      Reply ↓
    2. DistantAudacity*

      It sounds like you are looking for a style guide?

      I would think it would be helpful, as it keeps communication/presentations/stuff from your team consistent – it’s not meant to be «personal». And formatting is part of that.

      Reply ↓
    3. MsM*

      This is the kind of thing a departmental/organizational style guide or template is really useful for. If that’s not on the agenda for your discussion about standardizing procedures, you may want to see about adding it.

      Reply ↓
    4. Not your trauma bucket*

      As others have suggested, build templates. But also do a search for readability in document design. It’s an actual field of study. You can find some good basic guidance online. That will help back up your claims.

      Reply ↓
      1. Times New Sicilian*

        That might be very helpful, actually. We do have a template, but my coworker makes a bunch of these changes to the default settings and there’s been no real reason to enforce it, so to speak. A third-party source on readability might be very helpful.

        Based on these other comments, I did also look and discover that not only does my organization have an org-wide style guide, but several other departments also have departmental-level style guides! They are virtually all for external writing, as opposed to internal documents, and they don’t address a few of my major concerns (like the appearance and organization of bullet points), but I think the phrasing of “let’s put together a departmental style guide” combined with official sources on readability will be enough for me to at least raise the issue without feeling nitpicky.

        Reply ↓
    5. Charlotte Lucas*

      I second all the suggestions for templates and style guides. And if you have access to Plain Language training at your organization, take it and encourage your coworkers to do the same.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hazel*

        Yes! Frame it as an accessibility issue, which it is, on many levels.
        Good plain clear language is easier for everyone to read, which surely is the point if it’s for the public.
        Changing format with lots of indents and bullets/arrows etc is very difficult for most people, as you point out. For those with low vision or who use screen reading software it can be impossible. If your area has ADA or similar legislation there may be communications guidelines you can point to.
        It takes some work to become good at plain language, and organizing thoughts is part of it. You sound very good at it. I think your struggle is to convince your colleague, and it may be easier if you can point to the law/style guide/ generally accepted accessibility principles.

        Reply ↓
        1. Times New Sicilian*

          I just went through the Plain Language guidelines and OMG they were so helpful! There were definitely a lot of points that fit in nicely with my own instincts and experience, as well as things I need to keep in mind for my own writing.

          These are reference documents we use to guide our interactions with the public, rather than documents the public has access to, and we almost exclusively use them as printed sheets, so those elements of accessibility don’t necessarily apply. However, we do talk a lot about how to present information orally in an accessible way, particularly since our third coworker is relatively new. Overloading someone with information makes it hard for them to get comfortable enough to then pass it on to a third party, so that’s one of our motivations for this review.

          Reply ↓
    6. anonymous anteater*

      I addition to what others have suggested, some thoughts on how to approach the interpersonal side of this: maybe it would be helpful to think of this as a team work opportunity. We all have our own strengths and preferences, and combining our talents can create a better product. Staring at a blank page and creating a crappy draft is real work. At the same time, it’s easier to see all these peculiarities in a document that you didn’t write yourself. So when she creates a draft, and you can do some editing and proofreading, both of those are important contributions. You can blame the personal style preference if you think she would react badly to being edited. ‘Thanks a lot for putting this together. Would it be ok if I change some stylistic choices that would make it easier for me to use this document? If you see something in my latest doc that looks weird, please feel free to update that too. I find that I can’t spot typos or anything like that if I have written a document myself!’

      Reply ↓
      1. Times New Sicilian*

        That’s a good way of thinking about it! I also looked over some of my own documents and realized that I am not totally happy with my versions either. We tend to have one document that is “all of the notes on everything you could ever need to know on this topic” and another that is “2-3 page cheat sheet.” I do still think that my “all the notes” documents are fairly clear and easy to read, but the formatting of the cheat sheet complicates things a bit.

        That, plus the resources I’ve consulted based on the advice from this thread, should make it a lot easier to approach in a more collaborative spirit. I’m still going to be the one presenting a lot of the resources and nudging things towards my preferences, but I can honestly say my way wasn’t working perfectly, either.

        Reply ↓
  9. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

    My office does a quarterly wellness initiative, each period focusing on mental/physical/nutritional/financial. We have kind of run out of ideas after doing guided meditation, group workout classes, group cooking classes, and having a financial advisor come in the past two years. What are some things your companies have done along these lines? We are relatively relaxed in a creative field, so we are open to a lot, lol. I am planning to suggest a rage room for mental and would love to hear your thoughts!

    Reply ↓
      2. Half Leslie Knope, Half April Ludgate*

        This was so popular at my old job – we booked a small conference room for her and she took cash payments (at a large discount). She was always booked solid, it was the perfect midday break!

        Reply ↓
      3. Massive Dynamic*

        Ooo I had this at an old job and it was so popular!! I am always down for a massage, even fully clothed in the conference room.

        Reply ↓
    2. migrating coconuts*

      I know you said you’re in a creative field, but maybe a DIY class of some sort? Something that’s different from whatever you do? Where I am, the make something/take it home classes are always raved about, especially if they involve snacks.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

        yes! we actually love doing these – we are interior designers with lots of varied hobbies/interests and DIY inclinations, lol

        Reply ↓
        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          I once took a knitting and meditation class. It was wonderful! (All levels of knitting experience were encouraged.)

          Reply ↓
      2. Tuesday Tacos*

        DIY for sure! I teach handyman classes and they are a huge hit. Repairing a toilet, changing a lock, spackling, hanging shelves, etc.

        Reply ↓
    3. Tuesday Tacos*

      I have found some of my most popular topics at my networking group in the financial space are more practical, some popular things are information to help with aging parents or our own aging (long term care insurance info, social security info, medicare, etc)- anything that has info on the “administrative tasks ” of getting older. Also, education about what trusts are, wills, etc.
      Also popular but not a topic you mentioned- handyman lessons. Whenever I teach things like repairing the toilet, spackling a hole, changing a lock, basic car maintenance, these are some of my most attended events.

      Reply ↓
    4. Seriously?*

      I have a couple of ideas
      1) Professional Organizer may be an option, esp after the new year for ose new year’s resolutions. 20
      Ergonomics assessment for desk spaces provided there are the resources to make the improvement to the working spaces and you are in person.
      3) Gear fittings experts- folks that know for helmets or work out shoes or like for those on a fitness journey.
      4)Blind date with book round robin (provided there are guidelines for book topics) where employees trade books with little teasers about the topic on the outside.

      Reply ↓
      2. Paris Geller*

        I would 100% attend a seminar by a professional organizer. I can always use help in that area, and I don’t know if that’s something people would automatically think about but it can have SUCH an impact on one’s mental state!

        Reply ↓
    5. epicdemiologist*

      This is a really off-the-wall suggestion, but you could host a CarFit event (https://car-fit.org/). CarFit is aimed mainly at older drivers, but it’s applicable to everyone; teaches you how to adjust your seat/mirrors/steering wheel/headrest/seat belts so that everything fits correctly and you have the best possible field of view. Takes maybe 10 minutes per person (but events can have multiple CarFit techs working simultaneously). It does require a blocked-off area in a parking lot and good weather.

      Many people are driving with their cars in a dangerous configuration (head rest too high=increased risk of whiplash or neck fracture; steering wheel too close or tilted incorrectly=increased risk of injury if an airbag deploys). This info is useful not only for yourself, but for younger/older drivers in your family that you might be responsible for–and it’s super useful if you rent or borrow a car you don’t usually drive!

      If you can’t host an event, there’s also a less-detailed DIY option.

      Reply ↓
    6. Charlotte Lucas*

      At my old job, our Wellness team included the environment as a topic. They had the head of our municipal recycling program come in to do a presentation and answer questions, someone from a local bike company give a talk about how to get started bike commuting, and set us up as a pickup site for community-supported agriculture, to name a few.

      Reply ↓
    7. Tio*

      Personal Cybersecurity training. It sounds odd, but we had a personal portion in a company cybersecurity training, and they taught how to avoid spreading your personal data and how to enhance your online security. It was actually really interesting!

      Reply ↓
    8. Caught in the Middle*

      I’ve always liked team building activities where you get to make something. It usually gives me something to be proud of at the end, and a fond memory, especially if it’s a usable item.

      Previous ones:
      – Blacksmithing class
      – Glassblowing class
      – Painting
      – Mug decorating

      Reply ↓
    9. anonymous anteater*

      We do a really popular one where you can sign up for a week long gratitude exercise. They create a big chat group and encourage people to post 3 things they are grateful for each day. It’s a good-vibes fest all week long, with people highlighting wonderful colleagues, family members, good weather, good little dogs and cats, and many small joys. People give supportive emojis and other reactions. It puts a smile on your face and doesn’t cost a thing.

      Reply ↓
    10. I Have RBF*

      How about a disaster preparedness session, with a focus on preparing for and mitigating the kinds of disasters that can strike your locality?

      Disaster preparedness is not just oddball nuts who stockpile guns and ammo, but ordinary people making sure that they have what they need accessible during an emergency, either personal or regional. Things like backup lighting, canned food, portable campstoves and fuel, bottled water, and other home supplies that can be used during natural disasters.

      If your local government has a disaster preparation website, like Santa Clara County does at https://oem.santaclaracounty.gov/disasters/prepare-4-steps, you can start there. You will notice that the site has no sections for hurricanes, since we don’t get them here. So a location appropriate guide is a good place to start.

      Some workplaces give out small “office emergency kits” with this sort of seminar, although finding decent ones can be hard.

      Reply ↓
    11. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      On site flu shots and a blood drive were popular at my last place. They also did the chair massage someone already mentioned.

      Reply ↓
  10. my cat is prettier than me*

    I got to the end of the year and realized the most days I’ve taken off this year consecutively is 3 (once for a vacation, once for wisdom teeth removal, and I still answered emails during the second one). That might be contributing to my burnout. I’m planning to take a big vacation for my birthday next fall, but I might be changing jobs, so that might not end up happening.

    Reply ↓
    1. Ole Pammy's Getting What She Wants*

      it is absolutely the cause of your burnout. take two weeks off to completely disconnect – ignore the urges to check your work mail.

      Reply ↓
      1. Science KK*

        Yup! I got a new phone recently and I didn’t log in to my work email from it. If you need it the rest of the time, log out when vacation starts!

        Reply ↓
    2. A Pocket Lawyer*

      If you change jobs, please try to take *at least* two weeks off between your old and new jobs. These periods of “voluntary unemployment” come so infrequently and are so rejuvenating. Your new job should understand and be willing to accommodate this, too, as it’s in their best interest to have their new employee be energized and refreshed when they start, with some distance from their prior employer.

      Reply ↓
    3. Venus*

      Burnout is more driven by feeling unfulfilled, like your work has no impact or managers are toxic. It isn’t helped by not taking vacation, but taking vacation doesn’t tend to fix it. Sounds like your plan to change jobs is going to help more than taking vacation.

      Reply ↓
  11. migrating coconuts*

    I’m a supervisor with 6 people who I oversee. My director wants to have our first ever annual reviews. The people I oversee all work the same position, which is a very static job. Same duties, no higher level is possible, and they are all part time. Think older people, not necessarily retirement age, but who aren’t looking for full time work or planning on leaving for advancement reasons. Also think public facing, customer service type. I’m looking for a couple basic questions to give them to jump start the process. Any suggestions? Everything I google seems to be geared towards advancement, skill development etc. Thanks!

    Reply ↓
    1. DistantAudacity*

      Look at their satisfaction in their jobs? are they getting trainings? All the tools they need?
      Hours OK? Aspects they like/dislike? Areas they can get better at within their jobs?

      Reply ↓
      1. DistantAudacity*

        Oh – and it should be OK for the review to conclude that everything is satisfactory, and the goal for next year is to keep it like that!

        Reply ↓
        1. migrating coconuts*

          I’m good with everything is ok, just want to have something to talk about instead of just staring at each other, lol. And I want to make the effort so my boss knows we did it.

          Reply ↓
    2. Holly Gibney*

      I’ve worked my fair share of dead-end admin jobs. Two topics that come up during reviews that aren’t related to advancement are organization and streamlining. Even if someone isn’t looking for skill development or advancement, and particularly if they’re in a customer-facing role, streamlining processes is almost always beneficial to workflow and customers, and organization (both physical and planning) makes a huge difference as well.

      Reply ↓
      1. migrating coconuts*

        Not a dead end job here. People apply for these positions because they love what we do. Think retail teapot store where they love tea, and love talking tea, recommending tea, etc. Some are more enthusiastic than others, but they all enjoy tea.

        Reply ↓
    3. Karstmama*

      Excited to report that I was accepted to a master’s program that I’m already doing a certificate in, because I like it so much I wanted to really dig in. I want to hear from health informaticists or health business analysts or EHR folks! What do you like best about your positions? What would you change?

      Reply ↓
    4. Hiring Manager (they/them)*

      Been there. A couple of things to have them think about/discuss with you –

      – How comfortable are they handling some of the less-than-routine tasks? (Issuing refunds was something that *rarely* came up at a public library that I managed once – staff that were adequate at their jobs knew how to find the procedure document and slowly follow it; staff that exceeded expectations could do it without double checking or taking a long time.)
      – What’s their least favorite part of the job and why? (Not always, but many times people dislike or avoid a certain piece of work because they’re uncomfortable or not fully trained)
      – What do customers say to them? (obviously, ymmv on this one, but often times in public service roles, customers will compliment staff that go above and beyond, which can be helpful in a performance conversation.)
      – What does initiative look like for them? (General reminders to do day-to-day tasks tends to be adequate; always knowing what to do and doing it well without any prompting can be seen as excelling.)
      – How do they work with their teammates?

      Reply ↓
      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        +1 to asking what’s your least favorite part of the job/what’s your most favorite part of the job – there’s a ton of good info living in the answers to those two questions, especially the first one.

        – If I could change one thing for you and make life better, what would that thing be?

        Reply ↓
    5. Charlotte Lucas*

      I’ve worked plenty of customer-facing jobs. Even though you hear a lot from customers (or observe things yourself), you’d be surprised how uncommon it is for management to as frontline workers what would make the experience better for the people they serve.

      I think you might be surprised how many good suggestions this could generate.

      Reply ↓
    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      We start with questions like: What do you feel went well this year, what were your successes? What didn’t go so well and how can we help you work on that? What do you need from the company, and from your manager, to succeed?

      Reply ↓
    7. Stunt Apple Breeder*

      You could ask for their perspective on company culture. What responses have they gotten to issues they have reported? Are their efforts to develop new skills supported? Do they feel like they are part of a collaborative team?

      Reply ↓
    8. Emily H*

      Google “rounding questions” and you’ll get some good ideas.

      Here’s one set:

      1. What is working well?
      2. Is there someone I can recognize? Why? [i.e. a colleague who’s been particularly helpful to you]
      3. Do you have the tools, equipment and information to do your job?
      4. Are there any systems or processes you’d like to see improved? Do you have any ideas
      on how to fix them?
      5. Is there anything I can help you with right now?

      Reply ↓
  12. ThatGirl*

    I just had to apologize to a project manager because she told her manager about something I said in an email that she took the wrong way and her manager told my manager and my manager called me about it this morning.

    We are all professional women over 35. And yes, that’s confusing to read; it’s way too roundabout and I wish the project manager had just replied to my email or sent me a Teams message instead.

    But, all is well, I think. I hope.

    Reply ↓
    2. Rex Libris*

      I think there is a special place in Hades for people that go running to management with every perceived slight, instead of talking to the other person directly. How hard is it to just say “I wasn’t sure how to take this, what exactly did you mean?”

      Reply ↓
  13. Amber Rose*

    I am so sick.

    This is literally the second week I’ve been in this job so I called out Wednesday and forced myself in yesterday and today but I’m shaking like a leaf and everything hurts.

    I’m isolated in my office and not touching anyone’s anything, but I want to go home so badly and sleep for a week. Should I just give up and ask my boss?

    Reply ↓
      1. A non-mouse*

        This. Tell your boss you feel awful for doing this in your second week on the job but that you’d feel worse if any of your new colleagues came down with your cold, and that you will be going home to rest and recover so that you can go back to giving your all once you are better.

        Reply ↓
      4. Spacewoman Spiff*

        Seconded! I got very sick just after starting my job, and had to take a whole week off–I think just 2 or 3 weeks in. I was so mortified and for months thought everyone would think I was a slacker. They didn’t! It was fine! Take the time you need to recover, and simultaneously help your coworkers not all get sick during the holidays. (I still hold a grudge against the coworker who gave me a combination flu-strep throat that kept me sick for almost a month. You don’t want to be that person!)

        Reply ↓
      5. Zona the Great*

        Yep! Adding to the choir. Supervisor and managee here– tell boss you’re heading home. I would care more about your health and the health of everyone else. Life happens. Take care.

        Reply ↓
    2. Llellayena*

      Oh my god, go home! You can’t schedule when you get sick but what you do when you’re sick can affect how long it lasts. You NEED to be resting to be able to recover. Trying to stay “on” all day at work is going to make it last longer and might make it worse. That’s not even considering that you’re exposing all your coworkers to your sickness which means they might all be out for a week, and right at the holidays! If work from home is a possibility you could offer to make up some of the lost time once you’re feeling better but really don’t push yourself. Also with the wfh, you might be able to do half days from home then rest the remainder of the day. When I’m sick, I will often have a burst of energy in the morning and crash by midafternoon. But that’s for AFTER the worst of the fever is gone when you’re in the “build my stamina back up” recovery period. During the fever it’s sleep, sleep and more sleep and maybe some netflix.

      Reply ↓
      1. I Have RBF*

        When I was sick with Covid, I told my boss I would work if I was able, but that it would likely be only a few hours a day. He was fine with that, since it was better for me to rest and get over it.

        Reply ↓
    3. Hyaline*

      Go home. If for no other reason, no you aren’t truly “isolating”–you’re sharing space in hallways and touching doorknobs even if you’re trying to avoid it, and that sounds like flu, which is bonkers contagious. Go home. I hope you feel better soon!

      Reply ↓
      1. WellRed*

        Seriously. I still haven’t forgotten when everyone who worked between Christmas and Ny one year (skeleton crew) got the flu. No one knows who patient zero was but we obviously touched the same surfaces at some point.

        Reply ↓
    4. Margaret Cavendish*

      Aw, I’m sorry – that sounds awful. Agreeing with the advice that hopefully you can just tell your boss you’re going home, rather than asking!

      Also, if it helps, it’s super common for people to get sick two weeks after they start a new job. It’s the same as going back to school – all of a sudden you’re exposed to an entirely new group of people with entirely new germs, and it takes some time for your body to adjust. Couple that with all the learning that goes on at a new job – not just the work, but the new passwords, remembering where the washroom is, which of your coworkers is Valentina F and which one is Valentina M, and so on. It’s a lot for anyone’s brain to handle all at once, so no wonder people get sick!

      Hope you feel better soon.

      Reply ↓
    5. The OG Sleepless*

      Go home! I just got over a really terrible two week illness that almost certainly lingered too long because I kept going to work. There’s only three of us that can do my job and each of the others had to work extra shifts, and finally the guilt got to me, but I really should have just stayed home. There’s some serious stuff going around and you really need to rest.

      Reply ↓
    6. Anono-me*

      In a perfect world, you should have stayed at home in bed. In an almost perfect world, you should go home and go to bed.

      But all too often the workplace is a very imperfect world. If you don’t feel secure enough to stay home when you are ill, you need to go in to work. (And to me, the moral burden for that should rest on the shoulders of employers that don’t provide a secure work place.) And new jobs can be especially precarious as you haven’t established a good reputation yet. All you can do is the best that you can do.

      I do hope that in addition to isolating in your office and avoiding touching things that you are masking when out of your office. Also if someone cleans your office pver the weekend, please either ask it to be skipped this weekend or spray it down with a lysol type disinfectant or both.

      Wishing you a speedy recovery, a healthy new 2025, and a supportive work environment.

      Reply ↓
    7. M2*

      You should tell your boss to WFH, take sick leave or ask for unpaid leave.

      Going in sick especially right before the holiday season is really inconsiderate. I have been really careful as I’m going to see a sick relative. Even if you’re isolated I assume you go to the bathroom? Touch buttons? The janitor comes in and cleans up?

      Ask to WFH and if they don’t allow use sick leave. Please. If you just go in wear gloves and an N95 mask try not to use the bathroom and bring in wipes to wipe stuff down.

      As a boss I would much rather someone stay home when sick even someone who just started! Talk to them! Honestly if I and a team member show up really sick I would question their judgment.

      I had a team member ask if they could wfh today because they have a cold. We need someone in the office and they had asked for today (many people took off) so I went in instead. I told them to WFH. Bringing in sickness especially during the holidays is not very thoughtful. Even if you don’t touch anything your germ spread when you breathe, cough, or touch anything.

      Reply ↓
    8. M2*

      People (or someone) knows you’re sick and if they get sick most likely will blame or think of you. You don’t want to be the person who gives the entire office flu or Covid or pneumonia (sounds like one or more of them). That is far worse than leaving work. You should have stayed home. Talk to your boss and stay home!

      Reply ↓
    9. Alan*

      It’s kind of too late now for more comments probably, but if I have any doubts about whether I should be there I force myself to go in, and then if I still feel awful, I just tell my boss I need to go home and ask if they have any concerns. IMO it really shows that you tried and it’s a little softer than just telling someone in your second week that you’re bailing.

      Reply ↓
  14. CherryBlossom*

    Hello all! I’ve been here a few times this past month over dealing with The Dishware Committee (Update: There is no update, just endless debates on cutlery.) But I have a new problem that I actually need to do something about.

    I’m covering for the Executive Assistant while she’s out for the holidays. But she refuses to give me access to the C-Suite’s calender, so I can’t schedule meetings for them, I can’t verify their guests or meetings, I can’t plan time to speak with them when it’s needed. That’s about 80% of the role.

    Her reasoning is that because their calendars are in another language (Let’s say this is a French company with a US branch), there would be no point in me even being able to look at them. But even just knowing when they’re not in a meeting would be so helpful! I’ve spoken to my manager, and she’s really gone to bat to try to get me access, but the EA keeps insisting that since I don’t know French, I shouldn’t even bother. So far, she’s been handling everything she can remotely (while on vacation!), but for the things that need to be in person, I’ve both been expected to do them and forbidden from seeing their schedule to plan getting those things done.

    I want to set my foot down and say either let me see the calendars or get this off my plate entirely, but I don’t want it to come across as an angry ultimatum. Any suggestions for a potential script that’s firm but still polite and professional?

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      I think your manager needs to be the one to tell the EA that it’s not going to be possible for you to do this job without access, and maybe copy the C-suite (and IT, if they can just grant it) on that message.

      Reply ↓
    2. DistantAudacity*

      I think you need a polit ultimatum! Get your boss to help say that this is a requirement for doing the tasks.

      Also, the language issue is fairly moot at this point in time, given what you need it for and that it will be a lot of simple/standard phrases. You should be able to leap those language barriers via some well-timed use of readily-available translation software :)

      Reply ↓
    3. Tuesday Tacos*

      Yeah please ask your manager to go to bat for you. Its always suspicious when someone refuses access to the company when they are on vacation. Ask your manager to ask the C-suite to give you access or to remove you from the job you can’t possibly do.

      Reply ↓
    5. Times New Sicilian*

      Yeah, I think someone needs to inform the C-suite. They’re the ones who are not going to be getting support if the person responsible for supporting them is denied resources! Also, it sounds like the EA is not acknowledging the requests from your manager, so I think it might be time to go to HER manager, whether that is someone in the C-suite or elsewhere.

      I would contact either the person you know is most responsible for managing the EA, or the member of the C-suite you know the best, and say something like the following:

      As you know, I have been assigned to cover EA’s work while she is on vacation. However, I have not been granted access to the calendars, as EA has informed me and [Manager] that they are in French and she does not believe they will be much help to me. How would you like me to proceed? If I can get access to the calendars, I am happy to try my hand at [scheduling meetings, etc] despite the language barrier, or I can continue to focus on [the tasks that can be completed without it].

      Lowkey pretending that her language barrier excuse is even halfway reasonable takes away some of the “angry ultimatum” tone.

      Reply ↓
    6. A frayed knot*

      When something comes up that you can’t do, simply say that. “I’m sorry, I don’t have access to that information. EA will have to handle that for you.” “I would love to help you, but I don’t have access to that calendar. Is there another way to proceed?” “I wish I could do that, but I need access to XXXX, which I don’t have. EA is the only person with access, and she isn’t here.” When things get dropped and it is inconvenient for the C-Suite, they will either correct the problem or not.

      Reply ↓
    7. SuprisinglyADHD*

      You might need to ask the C-suite directly how they would like it handled. Or, ask whoever is supposed to be managing the EA what covering for her should look like (if she does have a direct manager).

      Reply ↓
    8. CherryBlossom*

      Believe it or not, I have an update!

      My manager came over, did…something to my calendar (I’m not the most tech-savvy) that involved her logging into something with her credentials, and added their calendars to mine. She then looked around before looking me dead in the eyes and saying “This stays between us.” It’s sad that she had to be this shady to get me what I need to do my job, but I appreciate her having my back.

      Everything is indeed in “French”, but now I know when they’re busy and when they’re free, which is all the information I need.

      Reply ↓
      3. Observer*

        It’s sad that she had to be this shady to get me what I need to do my job, but I appreciate her having my back.

        Is this a *really* good job? Because this kind of thing tends to be a red flag for me. Unless this EA and the way she can get away with her shenanigans are a real outlier, I would definitely be keeping my eyes open for other opportunities. And make a rough plan for your next steps when your manager moves, or any other major restructuring happens.

        Reply ↓
        1. CherryBlossom*

          Yeah, I’m not happy with this job for a number of reasons; it’s not outright toxic, but it’s full of yellow flags and I’m miserable. I can put up with it while I’m job hunting, but the process is taking its time.

          Reply ↓
      4. The OG Sleepless*

        Unless it’s in an alphabet you can’t read, it’s often not even that hard to decipher another language if you know the context and there are only so many words involved. I’m pretty sure I could figure out which words meant “available”, “meeting” and so forth in any Germanic or Romance language.

        Reply ↓
        1. anonymous anteater*

          and there is always online translation. French is a pretty common language so I think this could all be figured out!

          Reply ↓
    9. Strive to Excel*

      If you want to be extra petty while putting way too much time and effort into it – learn enough French/language in question to request access to the calendars as politely as possible. (I don’t actually recommend this, but it would be the petty fantasy I dream about).

      Reply ↓
    10. Mutually supportive*

      Do the C suite know?

      Can your manager ask the C suite “would you rather do these tasks yourself while EA is on vacation, or permit OP to have access to your calendar”?

      If they ask why you don’t already have access, you can tell them.

      Reply ↓
  15. Sara*

    We had our company holiday party last night – nothing crazy or anything fun happened, just an awkward thing –

    I mostly hung out with one co worker that is like 99% remote. She comes in occasionally for a meeting, but doesn’t have a desk anymore. I go in 2-3x a week so while my face is seen more, I don’t talk to a ton of people outside my department (nothing malicious, just not super extroverted and my role is kinda siloed). She was getting stopped by a lot of people who hadn’t seen her face in a while, or wanted to introduce themselves since she just got promoted to a higher role. So I was introducing myself to a lot of people by proxy. One of our Senior Leaders came up to talk to her and I introduced myself. He just stared at me and said “I know.” And then changed the subject to the food being served.

    What is that?! lol I don’t think I’ve ever had a conversation in office that would make me think he is aware of me or my role. He’s like five steps above me in hierarchy.

    I don’t really need advice but its been in my brain for like 12 hours now and I needed to get it out.

    Reply ↓
    1. I NEED A Tea!*

      Ugh that happened to me last year. Sometimes I’m in virtual meetings with a woman from another branch – but not very often, so when a small group of us went to that other branch I saw her in person and introduced myself. She said I know you. I felt like a bit of an arse but I was trying to be polite. I think you were too.

      If it’s any comfort mom used to say “you’re not the first person this happened to and you won’t be the last”.

      Reply ↓
    2. Elsewise*

      That’s so weird! I’ve introduced myself to senior people before and had them laugh and say “oh, I know you!” because they remembered the one time we interacted three years ago (or because they want to make it seem like they did), but “I know” is such a bizarre reaction.

      Reply ↓
    3. Amanda*

      That is so weird. If someone introduced themselves to me and I had already met them (or tangentially knew who they were like it seems your senior leader did) I would just graciously accept their introduction.

      Reply ↓
      1. goddessoftransitory*

        It’s weird and it’s rude! There’s nothing wrong with refreshing someone’s memory as to who you are at a work-social occasion–that’s half the reason for office parties anyway.

        Reply ↓
      2. Elizabeth West*

        Same, I would just say “Oh yes! I remember you from [whatever]. How are you?” A flat “I know” sounds so snootypants.

        Reply ↓
    4. DataWonk*

      If he knows who you are, and he doesn’t attend any talks/meetings you’re in, then you have managers that talk about you for better or worse.

      When I am in a similar situation, I don’t introduce myself unless I know that I’ve never met the other person, and I start off with a “I don’t think we’ve met.”

      Reply ↓
      1. Generic Name*

        That’s my takeaway as well. I introduced myself to a higher up, and he said something like, “Oh yeah, I’ve heard about you” or something like that. I just smiled and said “all good things, I hope!”

        Reply ↓
    5. Ginger Cat Lady*

      He could have said something like “yes, I recognize you from XXX, it’s great to see you.” and it would have been so very different.

      Reply ↓
    6. Strive to Excel*

      I once introduced myself at a new job…to one of the managers who interviewed me. I legitimately hadn’t recognized him.

      Luckily he thought it was funny.

      Reply ↓
    8. The OG Sleepless*

      Why are people so rude sometimes in the most basic social interactions? I introduced myself to a client once, in a context where it would be completely normal and expected to do so, and she frowned, glanced sideways, shrugged a little, and said, “…okay?”

      Reply ↓
    9. Lurker*

      He could have gone with “Yes, I remember you from (inert reason here)-how are you? Have you tried the (snack item)?” Anything even remotely similar to that would have been better than what he chose.

      Reply ↓
    10. Friday Person*

      I have gotten similar! It certainly could be a show of rudeness, but I choose to believe it’s the VIP in question being a little embarrassed at people thinking they don’t pay attention, and possibly even immediately kicking themselves a tiny bit internally for their reaction.

      Reply ↓
    11. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      This little episode of social ineptitude says way more about him than it does about you. Stop worrying about it. He should be the one embarrassed and ruminating, not you, and I would bet a million dollars it hasn’t crossed his mind once.

      Reply ↓
    12. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      Oh, you think *you* did something wrong?! Ha. The Senior Leader was really rude to you. He’s the one who should be regretting his life choices. Geez. People at that level are expected to have better social skills than that.

      Reply ↓
    13. Alice*

      Super rude on SL’s part.
      I have a poor memory for faces, and I am not shy, so at cocktail parties etc I will happily introduce myself to people. Sometimes it turns out we’ve already met. Most people take it in stride, and the occasional person who is rude? I make nice, but on the inside I always think, “Well, I probably won’t recognize your face next time either, but I will definitely remember that [your name] have no manners!”

      Reply ↓
      1. Alice*

        That said, it’s probably better if you decide to believe that SL was just having an off night, rather than intending to be rude.

        Reply ↓
  16. Harlowe*

    So aggravated that everyone is crawling up my arse with last-minute questions before they jet off for two weeks of vacation, while I have to wait to actually get things accomplished once they’re gone, so I have some peace.

    Anyone else working all next week?

    Reply ↓
    1. Tradd*

      I’m the one who is off from Tuesday and return Jan 2. I’m trying to get all my stuff done ahead (customs broker and the freight doesn’t stop moving) for when I’m gone so coworker just has to transmit to CBP. I’m getting annoyed by all the people who expect me to start complicated stuff right now!

      Reply ↓
    2. Paint N Drip*

      Taking Tuesday and Wednesday both next week and the week after but otherwise working.
      I have not had any client requests since early this week and don’t expect any until the new year – as much a the slow pace is a nice break, know what a REALLY nice break would be? A BREAK!!! But my boss is not one for superfluous holidays so here I am

      Reply ↓
    3. CTT*

      I have Tuesday/Wednesday off but will be working every other day between now and the 31st. It’s great to be a transactional lawyer!

      Reply ↓
    4. FricketyFrack*

      We’re closed half of Christmas Eve and all day Christmas, but I kind of wish I could work both days. I’m not big on Christmas and I love working when no one else is here distracting me. It’s why I really enjoyed working a 6/6:30-3 schedule years ago – the couple of hours in the morning when no one was around were so productive!

      Oh well, I suppose I’m grateful to have the kind of job that pays me to take holidays off. I know a lot of people would kill to be in my position so I should appreciate it more.

      Reply ↓
    5. CherryBlossom*

      I’m working all of next week, and I feel that so much! I have one big project I’m working on, but people keep dropping off “one little thing that will only take a minute”; all those minutes add up!

      But next week, it will just be me, and this big but easy project. Peace and quiet :)

      Reply ↓
    6. Llama Wrangler*

      Yes, in the same boat. Our office is closed a day and a half next week, and then I’m taking off the 30th-1st, but this week has been a madhouse and I’m looking forward to some quiet time to actually get work done.

      Reply ↓
    7. goddessoftransitory*

      We’re closed Christmas Eve and Day, and I’m fielding the butthurt calls about it–“But what’ll we do for dinner??” I don’t know, maybe call or go to another restaurant? The paper literally runs lists of who’s open.

      Reply ↓
    8. AvonLady Barksdale*

      We’re closed on Tuesday and Wednesday and I’m taking Friday off (boss’s insistence!) but most people at my company– and our clients– are out for the year after today. So today feels ridiculous with the last-minute requests. Three of them were because the person handling them is suddenly out sick and nothing can wait until Monday so I had to jump on client calls with zero background. It’s not terrible but I am IRRITATED.

      Reply ↓
    9. Abundant Shrimp*

      I’m working. Most of my team seems to be, too. Nothing drastic is being planned though, a lot of people will be out and our work plans overall are kind of in flux at the time, so I’ll be fine.

      Reply ↓
    10. The OG Sleepless*

      I’m working tomorrow, Saturday, and Monday, and I’m home today very mindful of the fact that this is the last day I’ll be home before Christmas Eve so I need to get stuff done. (So yeah, I’m busily posting on AAM.)

      Reply ↓
    11. A Pocket Lawyer*

      For the first time since I went in-house over a dozen years ago, I am at a company that shuts down for the entirety of next week. Having “Christmas break” is so foreign to me, being a lawyer who largely supports sales organizations that are frantically trying to close business every quarter end. So, I’m excited that I have next week “off” but I know that some deals have already slipped and the reality is I’ll be working some, but I’m not mad about it because I’m in a far better position than I’ve been in previous years.

      Reply ↓
    12. Elizabeth West*

      *sigh* Yes. I only have 19 hours of PTO accrued, and if I take Monday and Tuesday, that’s almost ALL of it. I wish Christmas and NYD were on a Friday or a Monday every year instead of a certain date so people could have the weekends.

      I was saving PTO at Exjob for a longer visit at the holidays, but of course I got laid off so there went that. I had to ask my boss for stuff to do so hopefully a new project will come my way.

      It’s snowing like crazy today and it’s supposed to be cold and snow a little more next week. If that holds and the snow sticks around, we might have a white Christmas. :D

      Reply ↓
    13. I want fruit cake*

      well, lots of next week. Possibly all weekend. We’re *very* late on a project that’s due next week. Much of the last-minute panic could have been avoided if the guy who was supposed to teach the newbie how to do X had actually done that when *everyone else* was ready with their part. The guy waited a month, because … he thought this project wasn’t on fire, and didn’t account for mistakes the newbie might make.

      I fully blame that guy. He really doesn’t account for : I’ve shown you this complicated thing once, why can’t you remember 1500 details.

      Reply ↓
  17. Watry*

    I am so deeply frustrated. I’ve been looking for almost a year and a half now, but haven’t even found anything worth applying to. I don’t know if it’s just my area, but everything is either entry level or service work paying $12/hr at best, requires a specialized degree with experience (think nursing, accounting, IT), or is an extremely senior level position requiring a decade plus of management experience. Anyone else seeing this?

    In the good news column, because of space issues my office is right next to the agency head’s, despite the fact that under normal circumstances there would be 6 layers of management between me and him. One of the floors is being renovated so I’m finally being moved!

    Reply ↓
    1. Nicosloanita*

      Wait, are you being dramatic or have you literally not found a single position in a year and a half that you want to **apply** to? If I was in that boat, I think I would consider retraining in a new field or something. I get that job searches can take a long time – a year is not out of the norm for me, in my niche crappy field – but in that year I can usually find about one job a week that looks reasonable to apply to. And we’re not in a booming sector.

      Reply ↓
      1. Watry*

        I am considering trying to get a new degree, but I’d have to seek out scholarships, and since I already have a bachelor’s I’m not sure they’d be that easy to find.

        Also, my choices are admittedly somewhat restricted–I have to have good health insurance, and I cannot relocate.

        Reply ↓
        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          Good health insurance is based on the employer in the US (or ACA marketplace), not the job. So, you can have really great insurance as an accountant or really crappy insurance with the same job at a different company. So, while health insurance is a factor, it’s in a different way than I think you’re assuming.

          As for relocating, yes you can. You may not choose to but that is different from physically being unable to relocate. I “can’t relocate” because my parents are near me, but actually, yes I could relocate. I’d just have to deal with all the hassle and figuring out what to do about my parents.

          All that is to help reframe your thinking. Which doesn’t mean your options magically open up, so I wish you luck.

          Reply ↓
    2. FricketyFrack*

      I’m not really actively looking, just keeping an eye out, but I’m seeing a lot of “such and such team lead/manager” where they want you to have X years of experience doing the team’s work, but I NEVER see the jobs at the level below it where you could actually get the X years. And a lot of poorly paid intern or very entry level jobs. I’m mid-career and the number of individual contributor jobs at my level seems unusually low right now.

      Reply ↓
      1. spcepickle*

        I think the challenge is the mid-career people are often promoted from within. I know that is what we do. Want an entry level job, I got 10 of them posted. Want a super niche high level job we have three of them open now! Want anything in between well we are going to promote our entry level people who know our system.

        Reply ↓
    3. Busy Middle Manager*

      I wouldn’t feel bad. People forget we aren’t in normal times. We’re at the end of a rate hike cycle (that almost always end in a recession) where the Federal Reserve has said in their own way that they needed unemployment up to help stop inflation (I think they call it accepting ‘some softness in the labor market’). They’re actually predicting it ticks up more to 4.3% and don’t see a problem with the current labor market despite admitting that not enough jobs are being created to fill the gap of layoffs.

      If you search government BLS data, your concern is warranted. Look up “Employment by industry, monthly changes, with confidence intervals” for example. You can look at the rate of change in job creation per category. Jobs creation outside of construction, hospitality, education and healthcare, and government is basically non-existent even if you filter for 12-month rate of change. Put another way, white collar jobs have not been created.

      All that to say, no amount of networking and reworking your resume can compensate for jobs not being created in your industry. My industry, labelled “information,” actually has a net decrease in jobs.

      Reply ↓
  18. Aggretsuko*

    So for the next two weeks, the unit I partner with will be unavailable. I still have to go to work every day. My boss will be out for 2 weeks and the coworker being left in charge wants to have an hour long meeting EVERY DAY to discuss our progress. I literally CANNOT PROGRESS on anything for another 2-3 weeks, for reasons beyond my control. I told my boss I can’t work on anything that involves my unit being able to help me and she said just go over old paperwork then (fine), but she seemed to think the daily meeting thing was something else. I’m just all, what am I going to say, daily? I can’t do anything? (I note at this point I’m so done that all I need is to get people to sign off on paperwork, and they will NOT be doing that for at least 3 weeks, if not longer.)

    Reply ↓
    1. ecnaseener*

      Oof. I do think the meeting thing will resolve itself one way or the other — your coworker will either ramble about their own work for an hour every day or they’ll admit you don’t have an hour’s worth of work to discuss and shorten/cancel the meetings.

      Bring a good book, I guess?

      Reply ↓
    2. Whoa! is me*

      Can you send a message every morning saying, “Nothing new to report so we’ll need to skip today’s phone call.”

      Reply ↓
    3. Hyaline*

      Let the colleague insist on the daily meeting, sit through one, and let them swiftly decide it’s simply not worth it.

      I enjoyed reorganizing files during those down weeks, FWIW :D

      Reply ↓
      1. Aggretsuko*

        I seriously may end up doing yarncrafts all day. Alas, no files to work on yet. And I think it’s gonna be an in-person meeting….

        I brought it to my boss’s attention on the meetings, we’ll see, I suppose.

        Reply ↓
    4. A Pocket Lawyer*

      I once had a grand boss say, “Just because you’re invited to a meeting doesn’t mean you have to attend it.” Meaning, he trusted my judgment to discern which meetings were a good use of my time and which ones I could decline. I think this falls in the latter category.

      Reply ↓
    5. Goddess47*

      “Partner X is unavailable, boss is away, and paperwork has been signed off on.” Then quit talking and sit in silence. Wash, rinse, repeat.

      Good luck.

      Reply ↓
    6. Abigail*

      Sometimes at work part of your job is showing up and doing what is asked even if you think it’s a waste of time.

      Attend the meetings and contribute what you can contribute.

      Reply ↓
      1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        But this is a coworker, not a boss. You don’t have to go along with your coworker’s hare-brained time-wasting schemes.

        Reply ↓
        1. Abigail*

          I would agree if the OP was busy at work and taking this meeting meant not doing other work.

          OP admitted freely they have nothing to do. So there is no reason not to show up. The meeting probably won’t take a full hour.

          I don’t get why this is an issue during a slow period at work

          Reply ↓
    7. biobotb*

      A meeting that’s just the two of you, or a larger group? Because if it’s a larger group, I guess you might as well sit in that meeting as do very little elsewhere.

      But if it’s just the two of you and she expects you to talk about progress for an hour, I think attending the meeting, noting that the unit’s still unavailable so progress remains impossible, and letting her see firsthand how useless the meeting is (as recommended by another commenter) is the way to go.

      Reply ↓
  19. Tradd*

    I’m doing more stuff from home on weekends (I’m paid to reflect this, so I’m OK with it). My rolling desk chair is 4 years old. It’s a cheapo bought from Amazon in 2020 when I had a WFH job. Any recommendations for a decent chair that’s not more than $200? Bonus if it can be bought online. I’m in the US. I prefer the mesh back type with arms (not the leather/pleather back). Thanks!

    Reply ↓
    1. Rick Tq*

      I suggest you go to office supply or office furniture stores like to try samples out, if they have it in the showroom it is probably available online. Fitting a chair is like fitting shoes, your body and preferences are critical to select a good chair.

      Reply ↓
      1. A non-mouse*

        +1 to trying before you buy if you can. You can also find some higher-end stuff on office supply overstock websites sometimes, and a nicer chair is IMO worth it if you’ll be using it a lot.

        Reply ↓
      2. Another Kristin*

        That’s exactly what I did! Fortunately the most comfortable one was also the cheapest. Tradd, head over to your local office supply store and sit your butt down.

        Reply ↓
    2. Llellayena*

      Check Staples. I just got one for $120 for a christmas present (the recipient tested it in store but wasn’t ready to buy, so easy gift!). Mesh seat and back, adjustible armrests, headrest. It was on sale when I got it but the “regular” price was $160.

      Reply ↓
      1. Elizabeth West*

        I did too, a few months ago. Very nice gaming chair on sale for the same price as the cruddy one I thought I’d have to get! They have some great sales. They usually have floor models out if you want to sit in one before you get it.

        Reply ↓
    3. dude, who moved my cheese?*

      Yes, I got a really wonderful one that’s about $185 on Amazon right now — Alera ALEEL42ME10B Elusion Series Mesh Mid-Back Multifunction Chair – Black. Using it for about a year, it’s been very supportive and comfortable and you can adjust the seat tilt, seat height, back tilt, back height, and arms. I’ve never been able to find the thread again, but someone on reddit with some type of physical therapy / ergonomics background reviewed dozens of desk chairs and this was their top recommendation in the price range.

      You can also typically find good ‘luxury’ chairs like the Herman Miller Aeron on Facebook marketplace for a discount in great condition- for example offices that are closing/downsizing- but I personally only thrift non-upholstered furniture.

      Reply ↓
    4. SuprisinglyADHD*

      I went to Staples for mine, tried out a bunch, picked one, and ordered it in-store for home delivery. I don’t know how people pick out chairs online, I need to sit in them to see how they actually feel, how stiffly they roll or turn, and how the adjustments work.

      Reply ↓
    5. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I got mine with exactly the specs you are looking for from one of the big-box office stores and it’s held up really well for 4 years of full-time WFH. It’s a house brand so I don’t see any manufacturer logos or part numbers unfortunately. Pretty sure it was in that price range.

      Reply ↓
    7. A Pocket Lawyer*

      There is a company called Madison Seating that deals in used, high-end office chairs and furniture (think Herman Miller, Steelcase) where you might be able to find something. I have purchased an Aeron and a Mirra from them, and both are great. The bummer is you have to assemble them, but it’s really not too bad.

      Reply ↓
    8. WFH4VR*

      If you’re in a major city, google Used Office Furniture. There should be at least a couple of warehouse-type businesses which will have literally hundreds of chairs. They’re still dealing from the Covid fallout where dozens of businesses shut their offices down. You can probably get an Aeron for $300.

      Reply ↓
    9. Alan*

      Not sure if we can post links here but I got the “Ticova Ergonomic Office Chair” ($220) from Amazon and liked it so much that I bought another. I used have an expensive ($400) chair from Office Depot and I honestly like this one better. After a while the more expensive one started hurting my back.

      Reply ↓
  20. Half Leslie Knope, Half April Ludgate*

    No question or advice needed here, just wanted to show support for my fellow federal workers today as we prepare for a potential shutdown. Hope you’re giving yourself some space to destress today amongst all the shutdown prep!

    Reply ↓
    1. About to shut down*

      Oh my gosh, I LOVE this screenname! Perfect. I’m even rewatching Parks and Rec. What are your plans for the shutdown? Getting together with coworkers? Finishing up long-neglected home projects?

      I’m in the same boat as you — will be experiencing my first shutdown (despite being a fed for awhile) this holiday season. Anyway, solidarity!

      Reply ↓
      1. Half Leslie Knope, Half April Ludgate*

        Thanks! I’m a contractor, actually, so I’ll be working without oversight from my civil servant colleagues, so I’ll likely just be getting some backlogged work done and anything I can do to support my colleagues work until they return. My team is pretty spread out with the holidays, so hopefully by the time everyone comes home from travel they are all back to work!

        How about you, what do you have planned? I’m hopeful that a lot of folks can use this time for some holiday relaxation and then can quickly get back to work!

        Reply ↓
  21. KitKat*

    Hoping that 2 solid weeks off for Christmas bring me back in better working spirits. I’ve had a frustrating and demoralizing few months at work, between having a load of tasks dumped on my plate, being promised the moon and stars and then functionally demoted instead, and being moved into a group with a work culture that I’m just probably fundamentally not a good fit for. I’m trying to hold out to a certain date for financial reasons, and hoping this boost can get me part of the way there.

    No question, just saying hello to everyone who really, really needs time off and might be getting it soon. You’ve got this, and Christmas is so close.

    Reply ↓
    2. Jane*

      As someone currently stuck at a job I hate, I feel this so hard! I’m taking a red-eye after work tonight and spending the next two weeks in my hometown. Knowing I have well-deserved time off to look forward to has been the only thing getting me through the past few months.

      Reply ↓
  22. Not That Jane*

    Trying to avoid doxxing myself with this question LOL

    … let’s say I am a volunteer peer counselor for traumatized llamas. As a volunteer, I have a moderate amount of training (40ish hours) plus on the job experience and some ad-hoc access to professional oversight in difficult cases. But… in my day to day, I’m pretty much just doing my own thing with the work. Which is good in that I can do my personal best for my llama clients, but also not good in that I really miss the support & feedback I would get from having an involved “boss” or even coworkers. The way my volunteer gig is set up, there isn’t really a way to get everyone together as we all have very different schedules … so… how might I go about building a community – virtual or in person – of fellow traumatized-llama counselors? The only organizations I have found are paid groups for actual full-time professionals, which I am not.

    Reply ↓
    1. Georgina Sands*

      Could setting up a group on social media like Facebook work, or a private discord group? I’m in several groups for my profession, some of which are large and public, and some of which are tiny and private.

      Reply ↓
    2. Cadillac*

      Do you run into people in person where you can make small talk? You might start by just asking people to grab coffee and do some shop talk!

      Reply ↓
    3. Tio*

      Have you checked for groups on Facebook or LinkedIn? Are there any professional organizations related to this counseling you could hook up with? Or if you wanted it to be more for your org specifically, could you set up a smaller group on one of those that could be used?

      Reply ↓
  23. Weighing Maternity Leave*

    People who have given birth: What’s the minimum amount of leave you needed?

    We want to get pregnant with our first next year. Current job only offers 6 weeks, about 4 of it paid, and new job would offer 12 weeks paid. (I’m in the U.S.) I’m trying to figure out how to weighthis, when I like my current job pretty well most days, but it’s stressful too.

    Reply ↓
    1. Nicosloanita*

      Only four weeks paid maternity leave is pretty darn crap. The salary would have to be really high for me to consider that, since I’d be paying for much more leave / blowing all my vacation / sick leave and probably going unpaid. My friend is just back from 12 weeks leave, which is what our region mandates, and says it feels brutally short to her, and she’s not sure she can leave her 3 month old infant in full day daycare.

      Reply ↓
    2. A non-mouse*

      FWIW, my OB said I shouldn’t drive for the first 2 weeks after giving birth and to not lift especially heavy things or work out for the first 6 weeks. I had an uncomplicated birth and did not feel super great until week 5 post-partum, so don’t discount the longer leave for you to recover!.

      Some states offer their own version of FMLA so depending on your state, you might be eligible for more leave than your employer offers.

      Reply ↓
    3. Massive Dynamic*

      Hell, I think I was still recovery bleeding at 4 weeks. The vast majority of folks want and need that 12 weeks so it’s best to assume that you would too. Just remember that family medical leave in the US doesn’t kick in until you’ve been in the role a full year, but if this company is offering paid leave then maybe they offer it before that 12month marker. Tricky thing to ask about in job interviews though…

      Either way, best of luck to you! If you need to hit 12 months then just wait three or four months into your new role before trying and you’ll be at the 12 months when you give birth.

      Reply ↓
    4. Paint N Drip*

      There are so many factors to this – how do you plan to give birth (is C-section a possibility or an eventuality), what does your support system look like in the immediate and a few weeks out and a few months out, what does your personal mental health history and your mom’s birth experience indicate about your risk of postpartum depression/anxiety/psychosis, etc.

      I have not given birth, but I had several weeks after a miscarriage that I was not mentally well enough to be working. Once I had a coworker who returned to work BY CHOICE 9 days after birth of her kiddo. Plenty of people have babies when they have other kids or things that DO NOT WAIT so they’re back to ‘work’ literally hours after birth. Emotionally, 12 weeks of connecting and loving on a baby is probably twice as good as 6 weeks – but if you don’t have support or are losing your mind being home, longer is not always better! I’ve heard new moms say that their old job is the best job because after they return post-partum, they’re not at 100% focus, and doing what you know can just be simpler – but if your current job is stressful, maybe finding a LESS stressful job for a few years makes more sense.

      I hope this helps with the weighing of the options <3

      Reply ↓
      3. Observer*

        Once I had a coworker who returned to work BY CHOICE 9 days after birth of her kiddo.

        To me that’s a flag that something is not right at home. Physical recovery takes time.

        Reply ↓
    5. Forest Hag*

      I would say 12 weeks is good if you have relatively smooth pregnancy/birth/recovery. I had 12 weeks with both of my kids (I’m in the US as well). I also worked from home for about 2 weeks prior to delivery and about 2-3 after I returned to work. It would have been great to have more time, but in the US, 12 is as much you will likely get. 12 weeks paid is great. I had very low-risk, incident-free pregnancies – and with my first, I definitely needed all 12 weeks. The second one I physically felt better sooner, but I still needed that full time to adjust to life with a new baby (plus a toddler). After I returned to work, I was still super tired and dealing with pumping, so even though I was working, I didn’t work too hard (and thankfully had the type of job that allowed that). Beyond the leave, you will also need time to take the baby to dr appointments, and there are just sooooo many appointments in those first six months or so.

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    6. Cadillac*

      At 12 weeks I was completely unprepared mentally, emotionally, and physically (in terms of sleep schedule) to be back at work. Earlier than that would have been emotionally agonizing. I would prioritize this factor pretty significantly in decision making.

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    7. KCD*

      I speak only for myself, but only six weeks would have been rough for me! I am also in the US and I took the full 12 weeks my employer offered. Sadly it was mostly unpaid, and I am thankful we figured out how to swing it financially. I probably could have gone back around 9/10 weeks, but the extra time was really helpful. By the time 12 weeks rolled around I felt (mostly) physically and mentally prepared and had some practice runs being away from my baby for longer periods of time. That being said, if 6 weeks was all I had I would have made it work too. Best of luck on all of the things!

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    8. charlottemousse*

      I have a flexible small employer, so while my leave was partially paid by my employer (3 weeks) and the state (blue state here), it was up to me to come up with my leave plan and how much unpaid leave I wanted to take. One of my friends (with three kids) said 6 months, but I thought for myself, that might feel too long, since I do enjoy my job, despite it also being stressful at times. So, for my first, I took 16 weeks, which is what my state generally provides job protections for, and which felt right for me — at 12 weeks, I remember thinking I was really glad I still had another 4 weeks. But it took me some time to ramp back up at work. For my 2nd, I initially took 16 weeks again, and ended up having to extend another month for health issues going on in my family. By that time, I was ready to go back. It’s a mix of time to heal, time to bond, time to adjust to all the hormonal changes, and unfortunately also, what your finances & job allow.

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    9. Hi, how are you?*

      12 weeks paid is the way to go, IMO. Also, if your partner will also have some parental leave also, consider staggering that…partner home with you for first 3 weeks, and partner and baby home together for 3 weeks when you go back so you’re not going back to work AND sending baby into care at the same time (it’s a very emotional time!).

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    10. Cadillac*

      Came back to add some broader (mostly unsolicited!) advice as I think about your question more.

      Consider that ALL of your expectations about how you’ll feel post-partum may be turn out to be wrong. A lot changes, you go through multiple huge and fully new life experiences in very short order, and there are of course hormones involved.

      You may think now that you’ll be the type of person begging to go back to work to get your identity back, or you may think you’ll never want to leave your cozy nest again… in either case, you might turn out to be the exact opposite, or somewhere in between. Similarly, you might think you’ll love breastfeeding and do anything to preserve it when you return to work, or might think you won’t care and will probably only do it for a few weeks to get started… and again, could be the opposite, could be neither.

      One of the things that most surprised me post-partum was *myself.* Life experiences that you think are probably analagous to post-partum just aren’t, in some ways, and you also change a lot through the process.

      I say all this to say: if there’s a plan that helps you preserve options, that’s the best plan!

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      1. Observer*

        I say all this to say: if there’s a plan that helps you preserve options, that’s the best plan!

        This is true.

        But also, keep in mind that even a reasonably easy pregnancy and birth is a very taxing series of events, physically speaking. And even with a good support network, it just takes *time* to heal.

        It’s not for nothing that even the people who are most insistent on parental leave being the same for *everyone* – women or men, birth or adoption – are on board with a routine 6 weeks standard for pregnancy and childbirth. Because while the emotional an psychological factors that come into play are not necessarily tied to those factors, physical recovery is a whole other kettle of fish.

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      2. RagingADHD*

        This is a great insight. It’s very common to have an identity crisis after becoming a parent, and a big contributor to that is that the experience of becoming a parent (however you go about it) does actually change you in unpredictable ways.

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    11. This Old House*

      I went back at 12 weeks once, and after my next 2 births had access to significantly more leave, and I said I’d never do the former again. (I stayed in a job that had turned into a dumpster fire to ensure access to the additional leave.) I know I speak from a place of a lot of privilege (for America), but for most people 12 weeks is barely enough.

      (That said, at 6 weeks post my most recent birth, I was out a NYE party (with the baby) until midnight, I went on a First Day Hike the next day – physically, most people are pretty well up and about by 6 weeks. I can’t imagine being back at work then, but a lot of the initial brutal recovery and crying because my feet were cold was behind me.)

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    12. Clisby*

      This is going to vary so much. However, I’d say minimum of 4 weeks from a physical recorery point of view. I wound up taking 8 weeks paid (6 weeks from my sick leave bank, and 2 weeks PTO) and I felt like I was going crazy staying home with a baby. My husband quit his job and stayed home with her for the next 5 months so I could go back to work and he could concentrate on job-searching. It worked out great. I would not have wanted to put our daughter in day care at 8 weeks, but no worries having her cared for by her father.

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    13. ArlynPage*

      One thing to know is whether there’s an amount of time you’d need to be working at a new job in order to be eligible for the 12 weeks paid leave. Sometimes you need to be in the role for a full year before you are eligible to take 12 weeks off, so plan accordingly if that’s the route you take.

      My personal experience: I’ve had two uncomplicated births in a state with 12 weeks paid leave (for each parent). The first time, I took the whole 12 weeks immediately after birth and my husband took his 12 weeks paid leave after that. Luckily my recovery was very fast and smooth and physically I could have gone back to work, although I was getting so little sleep and my mental state was … patchy so I don’t think I would have been the most productive. I also felt jealous of my husband because the baby had gotten so much easier after about 2.5 months of age, so his leave from 3-6 months was a lot more fun.

      For the second baby, due to work scheduling stuff, I took the first 6 weeks off, went back to work while my husband took his leave, and then I took the remaining 6 weeks off. That worked out, but only because my job was low-key and I was able to work from home and pump during meetings. I felt like I really needed that remaining time and would have been pretty devastated if 6 weeks was all I got.

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    14. gingko*

      12 weeks was when I started to feel human again, personally. I weigh paid maternity leave very highly when applying to new jobs.

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    15. RagingADHD*

      As much as you can get. It is completely normal to bleed for 6 or even 8 weeks after a vaginal delivery. It is completely normal for a newborn to not sleep more than 2 hours at a time for 8 weeks, and not much more than that for 12 weeks. If nursing, it is normal for it to take 4 weeks or more for milk supply to be well established, and 12 weeks or more for milk to be produced on demand rather than being engorged.

      Some people have it easier than that, and some people have it harder. Emotional bonding aside, purely from a physical standpoint, 8-12 weeks is a reasonable expectation for how long you may be dealing with basic recovery / survival, even when absolutely nothing is wrong.

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    16. honey cowl*

      I had 20 weeks paid with my first and will have 16 weeks + 2 weeks part time with my current passenger, fully paid. Honestly, 20 weeks felt a little long! Your mileage may vary but my job is way easier than caring for an infant. I was ready for some easier days and brain stimulation. I now like my job a lot better than my last one but this is probably my last baby so I’m not sure how much I’ll want to savor it.

      I really don’t think I could do the full year that some more evolved countries have! My American cousin lived in Canada with her second and wanted to go back to work at 6mos but childcare was simply not available since the culture assumed it would all be done by the mother. I know it’s good to have the option but for me I would have gone crazy.

      I also think it hugely matters how much leave your partner gets. Mine gets 12 weeks paid and he takes the whole thing concurrently with me (lots of partners especially those with less leave end up switching off). Sharing the load in those really early, impossibly hard days is so important. I think a partner’s amount of leave or lack thereof is potentially the biggest contributor to PPD I’ve seen in my friends and family.

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      1. This Old House*

        I sometimes think it may be the case that maternity leave is so hard on Americans *because* we get so little of it. 20 weeks is just 12 weeks of a newborn and 8 weeks of kind of a bigger, louder newborn. I had 8-10 months with my 2nd and 3 and by the end of that time frame I was just barely getting to the point where I could play *with* my baby in a way that was fun for both of us; take him to story times where he might actually be a little engaged and enjoy himself, not just be there as my tiny lump of a ticket to a place where there might other grownups I could talk to; have enough time between naps to get out of the house and do (a little) something worthwhile. Most Americans get to stay home *only* for the relentless slog of parenting a tiny baby (all work, no reward, not even so much as eye contact or a smile) and then have to send them to daycare as soon as they start to get a little fun, get past their colic, sleep a little more predictably, etc. Of course we think “I couldn’t do this any longer!”

        Obviously I don’t say this to invalidate anyone’s experiences and not everyone would enjoy months 6-12 more than months 0-5, but for the most part I think babies get more fun the bigger they get (for a while . . . then it goes back in the other direction several years later!) and I wish I had the flexibility to stay home for more of it, even if I’m not someone I think would thrive as a SAHM indefinitely.

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        1. honey cowl*

          They’re definitely more fun further on! Mine slept 12 hours really early on so I was actually doing well physically… I was just so bored! I enjoyed time with my son so much more when it was not 24/7 – it became truly so much more joyful for me. We’ll see if I feel the same way this time when baby sister comes along!

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    17. Generic Name*

      Keep in mind that many daycares won’t even accept newborns under 3 months (12 weeks) of age, so unless you have some other caregiving arrangement, you may be forced to stay home for 12 weeks anyway. The time at home is not only for your physical recovery, but time to bond with your baby. Since you are not yet pregnant, and are planning, I suggest signing up for a short term disability insurance policy. You can usually get this for pretty cheap through your employer. It will pay you for time off of work, and usually recovery from birth counts as a short term “disability”, but read the plan documents carefully to see what they cover.

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    18. Grogu's Mom*

      There are a lot of factors: your physical health, baby’s ability to handle daycare, your mental health, paperwork to return to work, and securing childcare, among others. For me, it was about six weeks of physical recovery before I myself could have physically gone into an office and stayed there for 8 hours. I had an unplanned c-section and I was still bleeding and hugging my abdomen to cough at that stage but it would have been possible. Breastfeeding/pumping took up probably 40% of my time at that point so I wouldn’t have been getting too much work done.

      Baby wasn’t ready to separate from her primary caregivers (me and my husband) until about 10 weeks. Before that she wasn’t in a set routine and couldn’t handle change/surprises very well so I personally believe she would have had developmental setbacks if she were in daycare that early. It took me a couple of weeks of seeing her doing better at routines and handling new people/environments before I was emotionally prepared to let the baby go to daycare around 12 weeks.

      Despite being cleared medically around 7 weeks, it took an INSANE number of weeks for my overworked doctor to sign off on my return-to-work paperwork and dozens of calls to various departments, escalating all the way up the chain and begging in tears for the doctor to just sign the damn form, before I was legally able to go back to work. The paperwork finally came through around 13 weeks, just a couple days before I went back at 3 months. I recommend bringing the return-to-work paperwork to your postpartum check-up and forcing the doctor to complete it on the spot before the appointment ends. I was pregnant early in the pandemic and all the childcare centers were closed so it also took a very long time to secure childcare. I lucked into something (not the best, but something) around 2 months postpartum after having searched since my first trimester.

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    19. Manchmal*

      I went back after 4 weeks after my first and it was absolutely brutal. Wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. If you can get the 12, GET THE 12.

      Reply ↓
    20. Crosby*

      12 weeks of course will always sound better….except that will you then you will be going back to a “new” job that you are still learning, and people you don’t know too well? That would be very stressful with a newborn at home.

      Reply ↓
  24. Blue Cactus*

    Professional salutation advice?

    I’m probably overthinking this but still not sure what the best course of action was. I’m in medicine, and I’m currently in the back-and-forth of getting a manuscript published. I received an email from one of the editors of the journal (a medicine-adjacent one where not everyone has an MD or PhD), and she signed off with her full first and last name. She used “Dr. Cactus” for me. I could not figure out the appropriate salutation! I have no idea if she has a doctorate, and couldn’t figure it out with a google search. I ended up using her first name and signing off with my first name to balance the formality. I know in most fields first names are the norm, but since medicine is typically very formal and she is vastly more senior than me it felt weird. Was this fine and I’m overthinking this since it’s my very first first author publication? Or should I have handled it differently?

    Reply ↓
    1. Insert Pun Here*

      I’m a person who often sends emails like this (though generally to PhDs, not MDs.) I do not have a doctorate. I generally address emails to Dr (or Professor) so-and-so to be appropriately respectful and sign emails with my first name as a signal that that’s what to would like to be called. I do think it’s important to acknowledge the degree (especially when female profs are often addressed by students as Mrs so-and-so) but balance that with the understanding that we’re all grownups here and grownups, in normal conversation, address each other by first name.

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      1. Samwise*

        Yep, and this is what I advise my students to do when they don’t know.

        Almost no one will be offended if you Dr them incorrectly, but you come off as disrespectful if you don’t Dr someone who should be.

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    2. Rainy*

      I think you’re fine–I always go by how people sign off, and it sounds like in your place I would have read her signoff and started the next email “Hi Veronica,” and called it good.

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    3. ecnaseener*

      I think you’re fine. If she wanted you to use Dr., she needed to indicate a doctorate in her signature somehow.

      Signing off with your first name was perfect — as a non-doctor whose job involves a lot of email with doctors I’ve never met, I really appreciate when they make it clear one way or the other!

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    5. Ama*

      I worked adjacent to medical academia for over a decade — people are pretty used to defaulting to Dr. Whosit and I never saw anyone get offended by being addressed as Dr if they weren’t. They’ll just write back “oh I’m not a Dr,” or “you can just call me Jane,” or whatever.

      I did encounter a few people who were doctors and would get huffy if you didn’t address them as such, but never the other way so it was worth it to default to “Dr.” if I wasn’t sure.

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    6. Deneb Cygnus*

      In academia here and I do a lot of email networking with other PhDs. I can’t speak to medicine but I bet its fine as you are both at similar levels. Even if the email thread starts off formal it always becomes more casual.
      But for future situations, I find it delightful if people respond to my “Dear Dr. So and So” email with “Deneb (if I may)”, and then sign with just their first. From there, we are on first name basis in our emails.

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    7. tabloidtainted*

      You’re overthinking it. I’m an editor. When I contact authors for the first time, I usually address them formally, because social rules for first name address vary internationally and by industry. I introduce myself and sign off with my first name, to indicate that’s how I’d like to be addressed. When I receive a response, I change how I address the person based on their sign off. I doubt your editor will give it a second thought!

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    8. Alan*

      FWIW, back when I used to write a lot of papers I was always addressed with “Dr.” I found it weird since I don’t have the degree, but I have met people with doctorates that become very triggered if you *don’t* use the Dr. so that’s always safer I think.

      Reply ↓
  25. anonforthis*

    I have a strange problem with a direct report – they’re educated and plenty intelligent, but they really struggle to remember and pronounce new words, especially long or foreign ones. I’m wondering if this could be some kind of medical condition? It’s extremely pervasive.

    I want to address it, but I’m wondering if there are some strategies out there that I could suggest they use. Unfortunately it extends to mispronouncing foreign and unusual names frequently, so it’s pretty concerning, especially in customer service.

    For the record, it’s pretty clearly not malicious. They’re friendly with everyone, and they don’t ask for easier versions of names. They just struggle.

    Reply ↓
    1. Elsewise*

      I’d focus on the names, since that’s probably the most pressing issue. Don’t speculate on it being medical, just be upfront about what you’re seeing, why it has an impact, and give suggestions on how to address it. I would say “Frank, I notice you called Esperanza Cortes “Expirinta Cords” in the last call, and she seemed a little taken aback. I’ve seen you struggle with non-English names a few times, and while I know it’s not intentional, clients might find it off-putting. In the past, when I’ve struggled with a name, I’ve made a note in the client file with the phonetic spelling. Would that work for you, or do you have another idea?” Be prepared to give Frank a little bit of time to think about if if necessary, but focus on the solution rather than identifying the cause.

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      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Names are super tough. I have an acquired power at being pretty good at pronunciations, since I take calls all day and have to say names from many backgrounds while not mangling them, but I often run into one I simply am not sure of.

        I find the best thing to do if I can’t parse a name on the fly is to be open about it–they are probably and unfortunately used to hearing mashups, and prefer to tell me how to say it. I can also put a pronunciation key into their file to guide other CSRs in the future. Can your report do something similar?

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    2. Alex*

      Some people struggle with pronunciation! My mom is famous for mispronouncing stuff, in spite of having a PhD. It’s just…something some people struggle with.

      Instead of saying “We need to improve how you remember new words,” maybe you can work with the knowledge that this person just naturally struggles with that, and implement some workarounds. Is there a way that they can make something to reference to when pronouncing someone’s name? Better notes with phonetic pronunciations? Name how this is affecting their performance and work with them on some solutions.

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    3. Rainy*

      I mean, sometimes people just have problems with names/pronunciation, no need to pathologize it. I think rather than suggesting strategies based on a learning disability your report might not have, just point out the issue, explain why it’s a problem, and ask how you can support them in improving. They know their own deal better than you do so they might have some ideas.

      It is also the case that some people have problems with specific consonant clusters, and that can be for a lot of reasons including some structural (anatomy of their mouth, teeth, tongue) ones. If the names they have problems with are all similar, that might be part of it.

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      2. anonforthis*

        Okay, so I think I didn’t explain well. The problem here is that I have already addressed it with them a couple times in a “here’s a problem I’m noticing” way, and they’ve only gotten a tiny bit better. It’s not so much that I want to pathologize as that finding resources is easier if there’s a term I can look up, because it’s pretty clear they’re not finding what they need on their own.

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    4. Hyaline*

      Some people struggle with pronunciation, especially of new/unusual words–it could be a learning disability or it could just be not paying attention or it could just be something they aren’t strong at! I’d focus on the outcome, not the reason. “Jack, I’ve noticed a small but, in my view, important thing I’d like you to work on. I’m sure you aren’t intending to, but I’ve noticed you often mispronounce our clients’ names. Of course we want to make our clients feel valued, and this can get in the way of that goal. Can you come up with a few strategies to practice pronunciation and/or memorize names, or we can brainstorm together?”

      If at that point they offer up a reason that pronunciation is a challenge (“New names are hard for me because I’m dyslexic” etc), you can either work with that or decide to let it go/provide a workaround as a reasonable accommodation.

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    5. Reba*

      Could you ask them to include “practicing pronouncing the names of meeting attendees” in their pre- or post- meeting tasks (or however these encounters are organized)? If it’s people that they will speak with repeatedly, I think you can make it a checklist item along with things like typing up notes or whatever, to practice any new names and then refresh before next meeting.

      If it’s customers that she speaks with once or twice and then not again… I don’t have ideas for how someone can make stuff like this click faster.

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    6. I’m a Dinner Jacket*

      Maybe share with your employee something like this from Katie Couric back in 2007: For years I’ve clumsily mispronounced the name of Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, but yesterday’s N.Y. Times Maureen Dowd column about Ahmadinejad’s Manhattan visit has solved the problem for good. Katie Couric, she writes, “has dryly has told people that she remembers how to pronounce his name with the mnemonic ‘I’m a dinner jacket.’”

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    7. RagingADHD*

      Does the employee know how to write things phonetically? Even if it’s not “proper” phonetics, they could make a practice of jotting down a guide for themselves while they are speaking with a customer, or keeping a note in the customer’s file if it’s someone they interact with regularly.

      It’s also more polite to ask someone to repeat their name and practice it with them, than to repeatedly pronounce it wrong. They can literally say, “I want to make sure I get your name right,” or “please correct me.”

      Reply ↓
  26. JustaTech*

    Friends, I’m so checked out I could be a library book. Things at work just took a bad turn, and I am so excited to take a full two weeks for the holiday that I don’t even care that it’s supposed to rain the whole time (and I have a toddler to entertain).

    So this is going to see like a weird question but, aside from Alison’s book, what books would you recommend for new managers? I’m getting zero support and our internal trainings are kind of laughable (so very surface level that they’re almost insulting), but even though everything is about to go splat, I still want to learn and try to do a good job.

    Thanks, and Happy New Year!

    Reply ↓
    1. Lisa B*

      LOVE the library book analogy, first of all. No notes.

      Congrats on your role! It can be helpful to see if there are other new managers in your company or industry that started around the same time as you – either Linked In or industry trade groups can help you find your new venting-and-advice partners.

      Here are the books that have been my favorites, and ones I specifically recommend to my new promotions:
      – The First 90 Days, Michael Watkins
      – The First Time Supervisor’s Survival Guide, George Fuller
      – Dare to Lead, Brene Brown
      – The Coaching Habit, Michael Bungay Stanier
      – How to Become a Great Boss, Jeffrey Fox

      Reply ↓
      1. JustaTech*

        Thank you!
        It’s not exactly a new role (it was dumped on me with no promotion when my boss was laid off), but I’ve realized that I’m going to have to do it myself to get things figured out.

        Reply ↓
    2. KitKat*

      I wrote elsewhere that I’m also checked out and ready to be gone! And similarly – even the prospect of flying cross-country with a one-year-old isn’t darkening my mood

      I honestly think reading this blog is more valuable than anything else to me, since I’m more of a “situation” learner (and a lot of business books are…. let’s say, heavily padded).

      I do have 2 Alison books and found the “Ask A Manager” one (similar to the format of the blog) was more useful to me. I’ve also found reading on change management to be helpful as I’ve moved up the leadership chain, though the specific books I’ve read were really dense and dry since they were for certification purposes.

      Reply ↓
    4. Tio*

      “I’m so checked out I could be a library book” is going straight into my mental rolodex for this time of year, thank you so much

      -The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, by Patrick Lencioni
      -Mistakes were Made (but not by me) by Caroll Tavris (not specific to work but good to read for understanding certain people)
      -Turn the Ship Around!: A True Story of Turning Followers into Leaders by L. David Marquet
      -Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell – not specifically about management but has some good principles in there that can be applied

      Reply ↓
      1. JustaTech*

        Hilariously I found a copy of The Five Dysfunctions of a Team in a pile of stuff that clearly had been cleaned out of a now-gone senior person’s office.

        Several pages were dog-eared but I could never figure out why those pages.

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    5. Glazed Donut*

      Dare to Lead, Making of a Manager, and Radical Candor were usually my north stars with leadership aims. Good luck!

      Reply ↓
  27. Writer Seeks $$$*

    I just got an offer! It’s a huge step up in terms of compensation, including benefits. Downside: logistics. In-office for the first six months, with a commute of 45″-1 hr each way, after which it’s in-office twice a week. The biggest issue is dealing with kids’ pick-up and drop-off. Working parents, how have you worked around pick-up and drop-off? I’m trying to work it out so I can do one and my husband can do the other, but I’m not sure it’s possible. Open to any ideas!

    Reply ↓
    1. Forest Hag*

      Congrats! When my husband and I both worked in office, we worked it out based on commuting distance and adjusting the times. If I could get into work earlier in the day and leave earlier, it was much easier for me to get the kids with reduced traffic. I would talk with your new boss about the logistics and see what you can do with your timing.

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    2. Massive Dynamic*

      Congratulations!! With your commute, sounds like you should do dropoff and he should pick up since you could get stuck in traffic. How early can you drop off? My kids’ school has a before-care thing for younger kids that I send my 1st grader to, and my middle-schooler just hangs out on campus with her phone until class time. We drop off ~7:20a.

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    3. Bunny Watson*

      I do the drop off and my husband does the pick up, though we did not have this long of a commute. We also work at the same place, so share a car so one of takes the bus while the other drives to the drop off/pick up. I had friends who paid a college student to do pick up and stay until one parent got home if that’s an option.

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    4. Lisa B*

      Is there a fellow parent in your neighborhood that you’re friendly with? We worked out a split with a neighbor that our kiddo played with sometimes – we dropped our little off at his house in the morning and they got both boys to school, and then we were responsible for getting both boys home. My spouse and I split our part so each of us only had 2 – 3 times a week that we had a hard stop, which was incredibly easier to navigate than one of us having every morning and the other having every afternoon. And I know it’s hard to envision, “I’m not really close enough to ask,” but I’m telling you that that relief on the other parent’s face was SO MUCH when we (very timidly) asked if they might be interested.

      Reply ↓
    5. Goddess47*

      Especially for 6 months, you’re going to come across issues that you can’t even think of now. Is there an after/before-school program / day care option available? A place your kids can go until someone can definitely get them? It won’t be cheap but think of it as an investment in peace-of-mind.

      Or a high school kid that leaves school about the same time as your kids? Or a college kid who can pick up and stay with your kids?

      Throw some money at it for the short term. Again, think of it as an investment.

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    6. Alex*

      Do your kids have friends at school that they could carpool with? Once you are remote a few days a week you could switch off.

      When I was a kid my parents dropped me of at my friend’s house on their way to work and we caught the bus together from there. Maybe something like that could work for you?

      Reply ↓
    7. This Old House*

      We pay for before-school care (for 1 school kid) and after-school care (for both) plus full-time daycare for the baby. The oldest gets on the bus in the morning, then my husband leaves with the middle and drops him at before school care, and I leave with the baby and drop him at daycare. Afterschool both kids go to the same program, so I leave work, pick up the baby at daycare, and typically need to text my husband to find out who’s getting the big kids – his commute varies considerably based on what time he leaves and the traffic, so sometimes he can get there sooner and sometimes I can. Everyone is (or should be) out of the house by around 8:30 in the morning, and I’d say most days we all get home just before 6pm.

      Reply ↓
  28. Jan Levinson Gould*

    I have a direct report who has been with the company for some time. A promotion that would entail a title bump plus bonus percentage bump is top of mind for him. Long story, but he’s already well into the base pay range of the next level up and he’s aware that promotion might not come with much of a pay increase, if any at all. He wants the title and at least the bonus increase.

    Senior management has not put him in the running for promotion- competition is intense in our division for the limited slots. The CEO has flat-out said people are not promoted merely on tenure.

    I’m neutral as to whether this direct report should be promoted. This employee has pretty strong technical skills plus product and industry knowledge, but his soft skills fall short. I’ve been telling him for the past 2 years where he needs to improve, but he hasn’t shown much improvement with his soft skills. He lacks self- and situational awareness and quite frankly can be annoying and rubs people the wrong way.

    When I break the news that he’s not getting promoted, I should be direct, but he doesn’t always take feedback well. Any suggestions? Not looking forward to the discussion.

    I really tried for him and sent a follow-up to senior management to give the decision a second thought as he’ll probably leave if he can get a better opportunity. If a title bump without a base pay bump will keep him, IMO it’s worth giving to him to retain a productive (although not superstar perfect) employee rather than recruiting a new hire that will have to go through a learning curve. But that point was shot down.

    Reply ↓
    1. Jan Levinson Gould*

      … and yes, I do have in-writing what is expected of him to make it to the next level. He and I have reviewed it several times and I can point to where he falls short, particularly with soft skills and everyone that has worked with him in the organization feels the same way, although that can be subjective.

      Reply ↓
    2. A non-mouse*

      Soft skills are SO important in order to be effective at higher levels, and I think a lot of employees miss that the game changes at some point and they can no longer ignore their soft skills. If your direct has failed to make progress on what you’ve been telling him he needs to improve for the past two years(!), there’s not much else you can do besides continue to beat the drum on those areas. I think the message to him is that the ball is in his court to make improvements, reiterate what exactly you need to see to advocate for him, and point out that he isn’t going to get promoted until he makes those improvements.

      I know you said you’d like to retain this employee, but if he constantly rubs people the wrong way, your organization might be better off with someone new who isn’t annoying the people they work with. Sure, the new person requires a ramp-up period, but everyone else’s productivity might get a boost.

      Reply ↓
    3. Parenthesis Guy*

      If you’re neutral about this employee and competition is intense, then that’s pretty clearly a no. Upper management likely has plenty of people in the same boat that will leave if they don’t get a promotion so they need to pick and choose.

      I’d worry that you’re overvaluing the soft skills and I suppose it depends what you mean about strong technical skills. Is he just capable at his job or is he head and shoulders above the other team members? If he’s really great at the technical skills but less so at the other areas, I’d worry about having the soft skills hold him back. You don’t want him to leave and then find out that you need someone three grades above him to do his work.

      Tell him you really tried for him and that it’s probably not happening. There’s nothing you can do but be honest about it.

      Reply ↓
    4. Busy Middle Manager*

      1. Can you ask them what could be a realistic growth plan, instead of them just saying no to everything?
      2. Have you given concrete examples of where “soft skills” failed? Don’t fall into the trap of using that term for things you can’t quantity. If they had a run-in with someone, are you sure it was completely the fault of the employee?
      3. I loathed the “but the person might leave” line when I was a manager. Maybe I’ve just seen it used too many times. Someone would drop that so and so is secretly job hunting because they were unhappy about something. It wasn’t a reason for me to reverse a good decision, and said employee would have same issues or worse at the next job anyway. TBH it felt like an unwarranted power play in a situation where power plays don’t work
      4. How is a promotion competitive if there is no raise. Seriously, people need to stop applying to them. Companies are getting away with being so cheap since 2022

      Reply ↓
    5. spcepickle*

      I have this exact person reporting to me and they are the second worst conversations (first is when I have to fire someone). People who do not understand the leadership positions do not only require technical skills and time served. That they MUST have the soft skills. I would be very blunt. I also would help him start looking else where. I have had to point blank tell people that if they want the promotion they are going to need to go outside our group. That with the skills and reputation they have now there is very little chance for them to get promoted here.
      Also I know how annoying it is to hire and train people – but do you really want someone who is not happy with where they are, which is going to lead to resentment, building that negative energy in your group? If in the last two years you have been clear on the skills you need and the person cannot bring them, I would let them move onto a place where they can shine.

      Reply ↓
    6. Jan Levinson Gould*

      Thanks all for the replies. To answer one question, his technical skills are on-par with the rest of the team – there are a few people who are far stronger in that respect. I’m dreading the discussion because I expect the direct report to get upset and emotional. The last time I had someone hellbent on promotion and it wasn’t going to happen, they became toxic and went off the rails, ultimately leaving in a huff. I initially advocated for them and spent political capital since I did feel that person was underpaid, but they burned their bridge with me by the time they left and was relieved when they resigned. But that person had less to lose personally and professionally than the current person in the situation.

      My direct report is very well taken care of by the company. He is about to complete his MBA that the company contributed at least $30k towards. He is VERY well compensated for the level, making 20% more than the next highest person in the group and 15% more than than the role tops out at in the latest posting for a similar job at the level. I had nothing to do with his outsized salary. To answer another question, normally promotion comes with a salary increase, but he is already well into the range for the next level and there wouldn’t be additional funds for a higher base in his case. He is aware. There wouldn’t be a major change in the day-to-day, just higher expectations.

      The only compelling reason I can think of to promote him is to retain him. He’s solid at his job, but the others in the running for promotion are stronger / more well-rounded. If he leaves, I could get someone else for the role at probably 40% less in terms of salary and bonus, although it would be awhile until a new person is as effective in the role.

      I’m thinking of laying it all out on the table like this:
      – Not getting promoted because of the intense competition for promotion slots. Point out specific instances where his soft skills weren’t up to par for the level he wants, as soft skills become increasingly important at higher levels.
      – Point out how well the company has taken care of him. I saved off the recent job posting with the salary range so he knows how much above level he is already paid.
      – Remind him he needs to handle the bad news professionally and with composure. I don’t think I’ll say this directly to him, but if he isn’t professional about it, I will not assign him to a project he wants.
      – Consider other options. There is a potential opportunity in another group that would love to have him for his expertise in a certain area. And it would entail more leadership than he has now, but soft skills would be less important. We’ve already discussed it, but it would he lateral and his singular focus is on promotion.
      – If it’s promotion or nothing, be blunt with him and tell him it’s just not in the cards here and if that’s what he wants, it might be time to look elsewhere. Let him know I really tried. Another thing I won’t tell him is I’m not spending any more political capital on his case. I only have so much to spend and need to use it judiciously.

      Reply ↓
      1. anonymous anteater*

        I’d be careful about your point #2. It may be accurate, and you may remind him that his pay is already in line with the next band up, so a promotion would not mean a significant increase. But, due to the power differential being what it is, I would stay very far outside of anything that could be interpreted as ‘just be grateful’. It’s a bad look.

        Reply ↓
      2. Bike Walk Barb*

        The part about pointing out what the company has done feels like you’re playing defense beyond what you need to. You said he doesn’t take feedback well–this feels like a lot of trying to manage his feelings for him and that isn’t really possible.

        Is this necessarily all one conversation? One could be “here’s what’s happening, here’s why, I value you and want to support your professional growth wherever that needs to happen, let’s talk about what that might involve.” The parts that have to do with playing defense and trying to keep him from leaving may not be necessary until after he’s had time to think about the decision. You can say you’d like to talk with him again after he’s had time to process it and do the follow-up with some of the additional points.

        And honestly, if he hasn’t taken coaching after 2 years, how much of your own energy do you even want to invest in this person to try to retain him?

        Reply ↓
  29. Tea Monk*

    My boss asked what we would like to work on in development. We’re supposed to have one on ones weekly but we never do- my boss is too busy and has recently absorbed another’s bosses duties. So this is an academic question- what do you tell your boss when your problems are things like ” It’s hard for me to problem solve complex problems. I do the first things everyone thinks of, but have no idea what to do after that.” or ” When I tell people to do things, they simply don’t ” or ” It’s hard to remember to follow up on documents people are refusing to give me”.

    I understand the actual issues but Im not sure Ill ever be able to surmount them and be good at my job…

    Reply ↓
    1. Georgina Sands*

      It strikes me that there are bigger problems here – if you are a manager and your direct reports are not doing what you ask them to, then that’s something that you/your manager needs to address. Even if your coworkers are not working with you as they are supposed to, that’s still a huge problem.

      As to remembering to follow up on documents that people haven’t given you yet, my suggestion is, don’t. Set a reminder instead the first time you ask for it, for a few days, and then every time you ask again, set another reminder. No remembering required.

      Reply ↓
      1. Tea Monk*

        I’m not a manager, but there are a lot of people who need to do things to be in compliance with the program. Sometimes I can get my boss to tell them how to fly right. People outside the organization? Very hard for me to work with.

        Hm I could probably rig something up on outlook about the reminders

        Reply ↓
    2. Rainy*

      These are really different problems.

      “It’s hard for me to problem-solve complex problems” is a you problem that you could work on via creative exercises, but problem-solving for your field would really benefit from input/coaching from a mentor or some kind of more formal instructional process.

      “When I tell people to do things, they simply don’t” could have a lot of different roots, including that you have responsibility but no authority over these processes/people, that you are asking/telling in ways that don’t fit your workplace culture, that you soft-pedal your direction in ways that allow people to ignore them, or even that your workplace is so understaffed that no one has time to follow up on anything ever.

      “It’s hard to remember to follow up on documents people are refusing to give me” is a checklist problem. Make a checklist. Refer to it daily or twice-daily, and include 3, 7, and 10-day reminders with dates when you put the item on the list. Ask for the document, check the ask box. In three days if it hasn’t come in, follow up and check the three day box. Etc.

      Reply ↓
      1. Tea Monk*

        I love the checklist idea so much. Im going to start experimenting.

        I can’t do much about mentorship within the company ( everyone is too busy for that) but maybe I could figure something else out)

        The people not giving me stuff is a mix of not having authority, understaffing and asymmetrical needs. Like I really need this document from another organization, but it’s not a need on their end. I want to sound more confident at work. In emails I can sound good, but off the cuff, I worry I don’t seem confident.

        Reply ↓
        1. Rainy*

          So with the caveat that I have ADHD and your mileage may vary, I don’t use my wet memory for anything that I can get as good or better results from offloading to some external tool. Calendars, a planner, searching in email, checklists, etc–all of these are tools better suited to some tasks (like setting a schedule for following up on things) than my brain.

          I have a great memory but I’ve been using it for almost 50 years now and the file drawers are BULGING. The less random work-related cruft I try to pack in there, the more room I have for stuff I actually care about.

          Reply ↓
  30. Author question*

    Hi–I’m an author and have a note from my editor (who is normally on point–we’re working on our second book together) about a secondary character’s age and occupation. The character is an executive assistant in their late thirties–my editor thinks they should either be younger or in a different job.

    That’s bonkers, right? I’m so confused about this note! I think it must just be a weird blind spot on the editor’s part but want to make sure this is something most readers wouldn’t bat an eye at.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I would not be surprised if your editor looks at all job descriptions through the lens of their experience in publishing, without even considering that norms and practices might be different in other industries.

      It’s not at all weird that an EA is that age, especially if their career arc is joined at the hip with the executive they have supported for 10+ years.

      Reply ↓
    2. Georgina Sands*

      Your editor is wrong, it is completely normal to be a woman in their thirties and an EA. Google says the average age of an EA is 49 in the US

      Reply ↓
    3. ecnaseener*

      Yeah, that sounds like a blind spot — titles are different everywhere, but my knee jerk image of “executive assistant” is multiple promotions up from entry-level.

      Reply ↓
    4. spcepickle*

      I think it is bonkers. If anything all the top level assistants in my large government organization tend to be older. (At least 3 of them are grandparents). I think executive assistant is one of those job titles with a huge range of expectation. It could be someone trying to make a front desk entry level secretary job sound good or it could be someone who is working closest with a CEO who has a ton of experience and it really help run a company. Maybe a throw away line about the type of work they do will help assure readers are not confused?

      Reply ↓
      1. anonymous anteater*

        I just read a linkedin post about how the EA title is widely misunderstood, and these roles are so important for an organization, and when you call it Chief of Staff instead, nobody gets any silly ideas about typist girls.

        Reply ↓
    5. WestSideStory*

      I’d ask the editor to explain why said age and job of character isn’t fitting into the narrative, there may be some insights there. Particularly if the book is set into a specific place and time.

      But in real life, for much of the last 100 years, there are and have been professional “executive assistants” who do it as a career well into their retirement years, and do not fit the stereotype common in media (tall, thin, female, blonde, golddigger in high heels pencil skirt etc. out to marry the boss).

      Reply ↓
      1. Author question*

        This is a really great suggestion, thanks–it’s possible that there is something else about this character that is ringing wrong. I don’t think so as part of their arc in the book involves a job change to something that uses an EA skillset but is a fresh start.

        (I promise that the main plot of the book is a lot more interesting than vocational choices!)

        Reply ↓
    6. Rainy*

      Oh my god I read this as “executive assassin” and I was like “GOTTA KNOW WHAT THIS BOOK IS”.

      Anyway, your editor is laughably incorrect. I work in higher ed and the 50yo EAs are the people who get shit done. They know where all the bodies are buried and they function essentially as a part of their executive’s brain because they’ve been working as a team for so long.

      Reply ↓
      1. Author question*

        Hahaha–maybe my next book.

        I also work with EAs/AAs in my day job and the age range is broad–many are close to retirement. Most of our C-suite support staff are in their fifties.

        Reply ↓
      3. periwinkle*

        Oooh, go check out “Killers of a Certain Age”! I can’t remember if that was an AAM book recommendation, but it’s awesome.

        I’ve never encountered an EA who was even as young as early 30s. They’ve all been older, having worked their way up the hierarchy (and in some cases, detoured to pick up grad degrees).

        Reply ↓
    7. Forest Hag*

      I agree with the other comments – when I hear “executive assistant” my mind immediately goes to someone older with many years of experience – in my previous jobs, these roles were typically filled by people who had at least 10+ years overall work experience and had very broad scope of duties that you wouldn’t typically find in a more entry-level role that tends to be occupied by younger people. At the university where I worked, the exec assistant was often more like a “chief of staff” and usually had direct reports of their own.

      Not to say you wouldn’t ever find an exec assistant who is younger….but I’d seen it as the highest level of administrative support role someone could obtain at many companies, and someone holding that role in their late 30s wouldn’t be unexpected.

      Reply ↓
    8. Hyaline*

      Also an author and ooof, those off-base editorial notes can make you question your sanity! While I think that there are time when you can be technically correct about a fact but the editor still has a good point about reader experience, this isn’t one of them. I have a feeling that the editor has publishing industry blinders on–assistants, in my experience, skew young in publishing and either get promoted to editorial or leave publishing! I would just confidently engage on it and tell her you did research in the industry you’re writing about and the ages are normal (provided that’s a true statement!), and maybe ask if there’s anything about the character/depiction/etc that is suggesting a discrepancy in age. But overall, you’re fine! It’s really normal for executive assistants to be older, and most readers will have experience with that or just not even think about it. FWIW– My aunt was an executive assistant from her 30s until she retired in her 60s!

      Reply ↓
    9. Charlotte Lucas*

      My director’s EA is in her 60s! And we all live in fear of her retiring, because she is so great at her job.

      This is in state government, if that helps.

      Reply ↓
    10. The Wise Fear Executive Assistants*

      Where I work, the executive assistants are all AT LEAST 30, and one has been in their role for more than 30 years. I’ve definitely encountered younger executive assistants, but at least in my anecdotal experience the age range can vary from fresh out of college to retirement age. And the older ones are the scariest, because they know where ALL the bodies are buried.

      I would absolutely be unsurprised to encounter an older executive assistant in a book. (And for that matter, one of the more famous depictions of executive assistants, Miss Moneypenny, is consistently portrayed by actresses who are 30+).

      Reply ↓
    11. Hamster Manager*

      My boss’s EA is probably around 50 and she is exceptional. He literally could not do his job without her partnership. I don’t think your editor understands that many EAs work at very high levels and function as partners to their execs, the editor is assuming they are entry-level note takers, which is not correct.

      Reply ↓
    12. Insert Pun Here*

      Editor here. Best to assume that the subtext to any editorial note (other than factual corrections and similar black-and-white things) is the editor saying “something isn’t working here and I think this is what it is.” You can disagree with the second part for sure! But it’s wise to pay attention to the first part. I always tell my authors, you are free to solve a problem in a way other than what I suggest.

      Agree also with those pointing out that assistants skew very young in publishing, and that might be influencing your editor’s response.

      Reply ↓
  31. Marketing Is A Team Sport*

    Is it appropriate to ask a direct report on my team for feedback or thoughts on updating who they report to? I am considering elevating a (different) team member to middle management, and want to seek their potential direct report’s feedback before I make any moves.

    Reply ↓
    1. spcepickle*

      When I am interviewing for first level managers I try to always have one of the direct reports on the interview panel. Which I think it is the same thing you are asking. Yes it is appropriate to get feedback from someone if they think person X would be a good manager and if they would be pleased to report them. I would be cautious about how I did it, because it is easy for this to become a rumor mill. If you could do it in the format of reference checks or more formal interviews it could help it all feel above board.

      Reply ↓
    2. Hiring Manager (they/them)*

      It is definitely appropriate, though if there’s a way to do it more casually, you’ll likely have more honest of an answer. Is there a reason you could “shadow” for a day, and chat with a couple of people?

      I have seen some companies require one reference from a direct report, one from a colleague and one from a supervisor and while that’s a hefty workload, I can definitely respect the intention there.

      Reply ↓
  32. Nessun*

    Looking for some good ideas to measure engagement & workload for someone who is 50/50 with my team and another team. Alessa is not my direct report, but I work with her manager, and she is now seconded to my team to assist for 50% of her time/capacity. She is happy to help, and a great worker, but I’m struggling with how to know if she’s fully working for that 50% or if I can give her more work. I
    don’t want to intrude on the other team’s access to her capacity. She manages workload, but she can go radio silent when she’s got her head down working, and we are all remote from each other. Do I just keep our weekly touchpoint and keep saying “Alessa, what’s your capacity this week?” and also sending her a note when I’d like her to take something on? (She is responsive.) She doesn’t work for us on a set schedule, Monday, Wednesday, half of Friday or anything – she just is supposed to be “ours” 50% of the time.
    I don’t want to be on her all the time, but I also don’t want us to lose sight of her as a resource or make her solely responsible for asking for work – I can assign her stuff, if I know she’s available. Does it ultimately just have to be hers to manage, or can I help? Anyone in this situation, manager or from Alessa’s perspective, I’d love some input.

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      As someone currently straddling two departments, I would suggest having her workload be as routine and consistent as possible. Got a report that needs to be done the same way every week? Great. That will a) make it easier on her to manager her time, because then she knows that she’ll be getting about the same thing from you each week, b) let your team handle more of the “things as they come up” tasks which may require more of your direct input, and c) prevent the problem of constantly trying to assign her work and figuring out her schedule. Obviously how doable this is will vary from company to office to industry, and it depends on what she is best at, but it would be my recommendation. I know I can do two part-jobs where it’s routine, and two part-jobs when one is routine and one is more project-focused, but juggling two complex thinking jobs is where the hardest parts are.

      Reply ↓
    2. Just here for the scripts*

      Having been in her position I would recommend that you connect with her other assigner and ask for a regular check-in to assess both groups’ needs on an on-going basis: Semi-monthly, monthly, etc.

      Reply ↓
    3. Your Mom Though*

      From her perspective – ask her! Also think about how you’re conceptualizing this 50%, daily, weekly, hourly? Half of her time averaged out over a month looks different from half of her time every day. I’d also ask her if she feels like she’s working 50/50 or if it seems skewed in one direction or another.

      Reply ↓
  33. Marshbilly, Not Hillbilly*

    I am an engineer with numerous years of work experience, but a first time manager.

    My employee is very smart, and hardworking. She disclosed to me when we first met that she is autistic and has ADHD. I need to find constructive and kind ways to work with her going forward, because I am almost at BEC stage with her – I just realized how much I am looking forward to her being on vacation over the holidays.

    Some issues I am noticing:
    – constant interruptions of conversations, meetings, phone calls (she is mentioning things she has done that might be tangentially related, but do not add anything to the conversation or meeting and are very disruptive)
    – INCESSANT talking; despite being asked repeatedly to stop talking or stop talking about certain subjects at work (e.g. religion, politics, etc )
    – unreadable word vomit emails
    – constantly checking in with me over weekends and on vacation about non-urgent work matters, despite asking her repeatedly to stop.

    I realize some of this is probably anxiety, some is the Autism/ADHD, and she can get training on the communication issues.

    Any suggesestions on shutting this stuff down/redirecting? I have tried being VERY direct, but that resulted in a bit of a meltdown, and I’d rather not repeat that.

    Reply ↓
    1. spcepickle*

      I am also an engineer who manages engineers we are an odd group eh?
      Honestly I would start with taking some time to consider if she is a person who you want to work with. If you spend the next 18 month doing intense coaching and mentoring are you going to come out on the other side with an employee who was worth the time and effort? The issues you mentioned are big, they are going to weight your group down, and effect your whole team’s productivity. I would put her on a PIP. I would sit down with three very clear goals and a shortish timeline (6 months?) and explain that needed these 3 goals meet or she would be fired. One of the goals would be do not contact me while I am off. I would set her up for success as much as possible by making sure my time off was clear on her calendar and that I was point blank clear in what do not contact me means. But being able to trust someone to follow this basic instruction is critical.

      I would say that from your concerns above this is someone who is not currently meeting basic job duties, it is basic job duty that you not send word vomit emails. And I would expect improvement in 6 months with mentoring and clear expectations and if that can’t happen then I would be okay saying this is not the right job for you.

      Reply ↓
    2. A non-mouse*

      I have managed people who had diagnosed ADHD, and it’s important for you as a manager to understand what is on you to manage and what is on your employee (hint: a lot will be on your employee – it is up to them to get the help they need because they are an adult and not a child). One of the challenges is in being direct and firm yet kind in how you redirect energies into where you need them to go. It is important for you as a manager to be very clear on the very basic things before you build up, because the basics are what fall apart first. Everyone is different, but I found success in explaining the general “recipe” for what I needed from them and always referring back to that recipe when what I received was unusable. Email was email-soup? Did they use the email format/template we discussed, and if not can they resend the email using the template? Etc.

      If your employer is big, they may offer coaching resources to employees to help them with issues. My employer offers this through the EAP and through an HR job coaching program, and ADHD folks at my company have found the job coaching program useful (it’s how I learned it exists). Note that this requires a formal diagnosis from a provider.

      Reply ↓
    3. Rainy*

      Direct communication is usually very appreciated by ADHD/AuDHD folks, and I say that as someone who is ADHD and has multiple AuDHD friends and family members. The meltdown is unfortunate but her own issue.

      It really sounds like she needs some coaching from a licensed professional who works specifically with ADHD/Autistic folks to help them find strategies and methods to manage their professional life. Her team (specifically the person who dxed her or who prescribes for her) should be able to refer her to a coach.

      Reply ↓
    4. Goddess47*

      And being autistic and having ADHD is not an excuse to melt down. But you’ll have to be direct on any and all expectations.

      –If you want to be kind, warn her and then return word vomit emails with “I will not read this.”
      –One declarative sentence and then do it. “I will not reply to you on weekends or on vacation — do not contact me.”
      –Develop a signal to use when she is talking too much. It can be verbal (“Talking!”) or visual (hold up a hand in the classic ‘stop’ signal). If she doesn’t stop at that point, you need to be firm but direct.

      You can be kind but you have to draw boundaries about what is acceptable. Diagnosis is not permission to run amok.

      If your company is large enough to have an HR, talk to them about what is and is not acceptable as the manager. You don’t want to get accused of singling her out…

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    5. Aerin*

      AuDHD here. I can think of a couple of things that might help.
      – The word vomit emails are probably her processing through what she’s trying to say without realizing she needs to then go back and fix it. (I cannot tell you the number of times I have written up a huge long paragraph of something to work my way up to the actual point, and then realized I can just lead off with that.) Ask her to add, at the top of the email, a bulleted list of the most important takeaways, 1-2 sentences max for each. Telling her to add it, rather then delete the rest and just do that part, both makes it easier to incorporate into her process, and can help reassure her that if you do actually need the background or extra context, you still have it.
      – Sometime when things are generally chill, sit her down and say that you’ve noticed there are times that she can’t seem to stop herself from talking. Reassure her that she’s not in trouble for it (that’s probably part of what’s fueling the meltdown) but that you need some way of signalling that she needs to stop. Ask if she has any strategies she uses outside of work in such situations, and brainstorm together if there’s a phrase or a gesture or something that can signal that it’s time to stop without making it a whole Thing. Framing it as something she can do to be more successful rather than something she’s been doing wrong up until now will help it go down easier.
      – For the weekend/vacation contacts, “I really need to be able to disconnect when I’m not at work, so I won’t be looking at any of your messages while I’m out. We can catch up when I’m back at the office.” Then mute/filter her without regret. Giving her a heads up in advance is a reasonable step to stem the anxiety, but hold the boundary.

      You might also ask if she thinks there’s something in general that might make her feel more comfortable at work, like a certain fidget or stim. I’ve known lots of people who didn’t feel like they could bring that stuff up at work because it wasn’t “professional,” so if you invite the conversation it might have a better result. The Job Accommodation Network (which I’ve seen recommended here) is also a fabulous resource for both managers and employees that focuses on specific symptoms and practical ways to address them.

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    6. Tio*

      I know she had a meltdown before, but you need to be very direct and clear with her, just like you would with any other employee. Maybe that means you block off an extra 30 minutes for her to process afterwards, so she can get herself under control and put back together to return, or maybe you do it at the end of the day so she doesn’t have to continue working afterwards, but you have to be very clear and avoiding it to avoid her reaction won’t help either of you.

      Firstly, let her know that you’d like her to hold all comments until you have completed talking, and that you will specifically tell her when you are done and when you want her input. Otherwise good chance given the write up here she will interrupt you constantly; if she does so anyway, “I will let you speak after I have completed my portion, hold your thoughts please.”
      Lay out each issue very clearly such as here, and then specify that these things CAN NOT continue. Don’t soften that at all. Let her know that if they do, you will have to write her up and/or put her on a PIP for continuing incidents. But also let her know what the correct course of action should look like – if she’s talking too much, she must stop if asked, or if someone is trying to talk, she must finish her sentence (or 2-3) and then direct to that person. If she’s sending word vomit emails, restrict her emails to outside parties until they’re vetted, and then give her some templates. Such as: Salutations. Main problem, two sentences. Suggested solution, three sentences. Questions she may have, 1-3 sentences. This sounds very basic but if she’s word vomiting these kind of guidelines MAY help. For the checking in, let her know that she is not to contact you AT ALL over weekends unless (specific emergency situation examples) an that she will not be answered over the weekend outside of that, and possibly blocked until Monday if she continues to contact you when you haven’t responded. Also, assuming she hasn’t gotten her diagnosis on record with the company, let her know that she can speak to HR and work out if there are any accommodations that can be used to make any of this easier for her, and if she has any potential solutions she can think of she can discuss them as an accommodation with HR as well.
      Finally, I would loop HR in, let them know where you are with this, that she may be coming to them, and that this is what you have laid out for her. Whether you do this before or after the conversation might depend on how competent your HR is.

      Reply ↓
      1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        Just want to add to this that the manager shouldn’t hold the floor for too long at once. It can be hard for the ADHD person to concentrate on a long monologue while also trying to manage their own replies queued up in their head. It would be better to have a back and forth by topic rather than a long-winded list of all the things.

        Reply ↓
        1. Tio*

          True. Most of these I would hope would be a sentence or two, but also a written copy available when they start the meeting might also help. Would also help for documentation purposes, and you (OP) could pause to let them write things down as well. I’m a little worried that if they aren’t addressed together though, you could end up with them forcibly talking over you or refusing to move on from one point. You can kind of play it by ear to a degree depending on how well they are responding.

          Can also mix and match these suggestions above, btu I think the big point would to be clear and precise, and set exact expectations and timelines.

          Reply ↓
  34. lysol please*

    Anyone else feel like they’ve turned into a germaphobe since Covid? I work for a psychologist and have appointments with people in-person… and I turn away so many people who probably just have colds because they’re coughing. I’m out of PTO/sick days, and I just literally can’t afford to get sick!

    The person currently in my office is blowing his nose a ton and I’m just over here barely breathing and I’m going to sanitize everything ASAP. I am so averse to getting sick, and it used to just be a “fact of life” that I would get a cold a few times a year!

    Reply ↓
      1. lysol please*

        No because I have a lot of autistic patients who won’t wear masks, so it’s not very helpful for me to wear one.

        Reply ↓
        1. lysol please*

          Well yes, I do wear one, I just don’t feel like it helps since they won’t, lol. I’m not saying “no I don’t wear one,” but “yes, I do, but it’s not a solution.”

          Reply ↓
    2. spcepickle*

      I would be really frustrated if someone at my psychologist was cowering in a corner because I was blowing my nose. I am not sure what kind of practice you work out, but aren’t people crying and having all kind of strong feelings when they see the doctor – which leads to nose blowing? Also psychology appointments can be really hard to get and if you canceled mine and I had to wait months to be seen again because I had a cold or allergies I would be exceptionally mad.
      Are you wearing a high quality mask? Seems like masking would be a great way to lower your risk while still providing good care. You could also talk to the practice about requesting that everyone mask in your area.

      Reply ↓
      1. lysol please*

        No, if you’re sick (even with “just” a cold), you need to cancel your appointment. I don’t even feel bad about turning people away because if I get sick and have to miss work, there are dozens of appointments that end up getting cancelled because I can’t do them.

        I do mask, but I have a lot of autistic patients who won’t, so it doesn’t help all that much, unfortunately. :(

        Reply ↓
      2. lysol please*

        And, truly, if you think I’m not smart enough to tell the difference between “blowing your nose because you are crying” and “blowing your nose because you are sick,” then I don’t know what else to tell you, lol. The person that just snotted all over my office was not crying. And I wasn’t “cowering in a corner,” but I was putting distance between us. If you think you have the right to blow sick germs in someone’s face because you had to wait for your appointment, then you are supremely entitled.

        You can get “exceptionally mad” all you want, but the dozens of cancelled appointments that will happen because I’m sick also have the right to be “exceptionally mad” at you for coming to an appointment sick.

        Reply ↓
          1. lysol please*

            Yes we do! For some appointments, anyway. We’re working on how to do all our appointments virtually, but it requires paying for new tests and such, which my boss doesn’t want to do until he’s sure there’s a market for the online stuff. Which makes sense because these things are thousands and thousands of dollars. But I do think we’ll get to where we can do most of our stuff online.

            Reply ↓
            1. Caramel & Cheddar*

              “until he’s sure there’s a market for the online stuff”

              What proof is he looking for? Because it feels like a knocked on certainty that in 2024, shortly to be 2025, that there is absolutely a market for virtual appointments and I’m genuinely surprised he’d hem and haw about it as someone who does want to make the leap.

              Reply ↓
              1. lysol please*

                Because the appointments we do offer online aren’t actually as popular as we thought they would be. A lot of people prefer to come to the office. So considering the lack of success there, it doesn’t make financial sense to spend the thousands and thousands of dollars on the testing when no one wants to use it.

                Reply ↓
              2. A psychologist*

                Many psychological tests are not normed for online administration and revising and renorming is a long process, so it isn’t even possible to replace all of the assessments that would be used in a psychologist’s office with ones that can given online. And assessing for Autism often happens at a pretty young age, and distinguishing between typical and atypical toddler behaviors over Zoom/telehealth platforms is not easy or reliable. I get to re-evaluate the same children three years later and I can tell you that we made some very big mistakes when we were not able to see them in person.

                Reply ↓
        4. Anon4this*

          I understand where you’re coming from because I grew up with a single parent who owned their own business similar but not the same as this. They had no PTO or sick leave if they didn’t work they didn’t get paid (their staff had sick leave and PTO but my parent literally had our mouths and her small staffs mouths to feed and pay for benefits). When people were sick and are so inconsiderate not to cancel or change the appointment it impacts so many people. After Covid I expect so much more from people.

          What is your cancelation policy? I once called my hair person the evening before a morning appointment because my child came down with the flu.

          I took the morning off from work to get it done but had to take a couple days for my child anyway. The hair person told me I would be charged the entire appointment since I was calling less than 24 hours. It was an expensive appointment so my spouse (I was lucky I had one) stayed home so I didn’t have to pay for this appointment twice.

          I also told the hair person and the manager again that I was there because they told me my entire amount was being charged not just a fee. I also told them I took care of my sick kid all night. If they can’t understand that (I had been to the same place for years and never canceled last minute before) then I hope they don’t get sick from me.

          It’s one thing if a person does it frequently but if a patient calls and says they have the flu and they are going to be charged anyway they just won’t call they will come in. I understand time is money but have a waitlist for appointments that get canceled last minute. I live 3 minutes from my eye doctor and was told it was a 3 month wait. They called me same day saying they had a cancelation because someone was sick. I took it and that person wasn’t charged!

          If you have patients who don’t like or have trouble if you wear a mask try a face shield and a nice air filter. Good luck!

          Reply ↓
    3. Tammy 2*

      Yes, but I am not at all shy about putting on a mask if someone seems like they’re sick. If they say something like “it’s allergies,” I just say I’m being extra careful because of an immune-compromised family member (which is true) but I’d also just say I was out of sick days if that was the case. If they’re offended it’s their problem.

      But, I was always one to carry and use hand sanitizer, wash my hands as soon as politely possible after a handshake, avoid crowds during flu outbreaks, etc. So I guess I have not “turned into” a germaphobe, I’ve just found new ways to express myself, ha.

      Reply ↓
      1. lysol please*

        Yes, we always request that sick people mask. They usually comply, but sometimes autistic people are unable to do it because of sensory issues.

        Reply ↓
    4. Times New Sicilian*

      You might also consider getting a good air filter. There are portable versions that are reasonably cheap and can easily cover a desk area if not a full room. Some of my high-risk coworkers have them in their office as a supplement to masks, which is probably even more efficient than sanitizing surfaces, at least for COVID.

      Reply ↓
    5. Caramel & Cheddar*

      Honestly, I think it’s helpful to reframe it. Germaphobes are typically over-correcting for germs that are not actually present. You’re not a germaphobe, you’re responding to actual germs out there that can make you sick! Do you like being sick? I don’t, so while I was less pro-active on this front pre-COVID, I’m more aware of it now and take better precautions.

      If you can, I’d go back to masking, which is the first and probably easiest line of defense. I’d ask your boss if you can get air purifiers for the waiting room and, if not, get yourself a small one for your desk. (I’m not sold a small personal one works in a big room, but I’d rather do it and be wrong about its effectiveness than not and get sick.)

      I’ve also been using nasal sprays and CPC mouthwash for the last year and while I can’t speak to any scientific backing on this stuff (it may be out there, but I don’t know that it’s super convincing?), I know that I haven’t been sick since I started. I used the Betadine cold defense spray, though you can’t get it in Canada anymore, apparently, and just any mouthwash that has CPC on the label. I use the nasal spray before going out and again when I come home, and the mouthwash when I get home. I find the nasal spray also helps with how dry it is in winter.

      Reply ↓
      1. lysol please*

        Yes, good point! I’m not afraid of germs that aren’t there, I’m afraid of germs that are actively being coughed/snotted in my vicinity!

        I do mask, but I have a lot of autistic patients who won’t wear a mask, so it feels like it’s really less than halfway helping–since the mask worn by the sick person is more important. I am definitely going to try the air filter.

        I’ve heard of those nasal sprays and I’m going to try them. Even if they don’t work… I’ll feel like I’m at least doing something proactive.

        Reply ↓
        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          Two way masking is definitely better than one way masking, but I feel like there have been recent studies about how wearing a properly fitted N95 protects against COVID (and thus I assume many other kinds of viruses) like 99% and I wouldn’t discount how much it helps. The key thing here being the properly fitted part and then having good mask hygiene, i.e. actually wearing it, not “Oh yeah, I totally mask” but in reality it’s “I mask at my desk but I take it off when I answer the phone or to eat lunch or [insert instance of non mask wearing here]…”

          Reply ↓
          1. lysol please*

            Hmm well I do eat lunch at my desk, so maybe it won’t actually be all that helpful…. I just can’t go 8 hours without food and snacks or without drinking water…. but I guess wearing it except to drink/eat is better than not at all?

            We don’t have a break room or anywhere else to eat… and I’m not sure a break room would actually be better if other people are using it to eat. Hmm I guess I could eat in my car?

            Reply ↓
            1. Caramel & Cheddar*

              I like to think of masking as a continuum, and you try to do the best you can within the continuum you exist on. So I’m not saying “don’t eat or drink ever” but that you should be cognizant of the times you do need to remove your mask and, when those times arise, try to minimize exposure where possible.

              So in your case, eating in your car is probably preferable to eating at your desk, but if you didn’t have a car and had to eat at your desk, then that’s just a data point to consider in the broader scheme of your exposure to illnesses of any kind. Masking part of the time is still better than not masking at all because you’re still overall reducing the amount of exposure you’re experiencing.

              I’m mostly just thinking here of people who are like “I mask and I still got sick!” but then when you press them further, it’s usually a case of imperfect masking. We’re all human, so we’re going to have situations where we’re not perfectly masking all the time! But that’s really a problem with human nature and existence, not so much with masks, which is why a layered approach is good (masks + air purifiers + sick patients staying home + virtual appointments, etc.).

              Reply ↓
            2. epicdemiologist*

              When I worked at our COVID testing and vaccine drive-thru site in 2020/2021, I absolutely ate lunch in my car. It’s also true that this is not an on/off kind of thing: a few minutes of exposure is far less risky than hours of exposure. Also, I heartily second the air filter recomendation. I’ve built 2 Corsi-Rosenthal boxes myself; it’s not hard, and the materials cost between $60 and $100. You can find directions/tutorials online.

              Reply ↓
    6. HannahS*

      -A medical mask and a face shield (worn properly low on your forehead) should get you pretty far, even if the patients are not masking. The problem with that is that people can’t see your face well, which may be a problem depending on your role.

      -A fit-tested N95, worn all day, while practicing proper hand hygiene, really should protect you against many illnesses, even if the patients don’t mask. I’m not sure where you could arrange fit-testing if you’re not affiliated with a hospital, but wearing a fit-tested mask is a totally different experience than wearing a KN95 that you buy online.

      Reply ↓
      1. lysol please*

        Okay, that’s great to know! The face shield might be too much because I have to check for eye contact during autism tests, and it might be hard to distinguish between eye contact and staring at my face shield… but if I could find someone to fit a KN95, that would be ideal. I’ll wear the ones I found online, but they are so uncomfortable–not sure if a properly fitted one would necessarily be better on the comfort front, though?

        Reply ↓
        1. HannahS*

          No, properly fitted N95s are very uncomfortable. It’s like wearing a cup strapped on to your head. They’re TIGHT. Nevertheless, I wore them eight hours a day, five-six days a week, for years, and they kept me healthy and safe–but I was/am a frontline worker in a hospital, and I didn’t have a choice. I switched to a medical mask when I was with coworkers, and took it off to eat when I was alone.

          The other thing that helps is taking hand hygiene really seriously. Most people wash their hands after they use the bathroom and once before they eat, but consider sanitizing your hands every single time you sit back down at your desk, and always before and after touching your mask or your face.

          Reply ↓
        2. different seudonym*

          Recommend 3M masks with overhead straps. They have a foam rubber nose piece and superior breathability. Excellent for long stretches.

          Reply ↓
          1. Caramel & Cheddar*

            For anyone who can’t do overhead straps (they give me migraines), WellBefore makes a KN95 mask they call the “3D Pro Adjustable” that has the nose foam but with adjustable ear loops so you can tighten it as the day goes on. There may be other brands that make them as well, but that’s the one I’ve used and I like it a lot.

            Reply ↓
    7. Hyaline*

      So, in reading your other replies…you may be really averse to this, but: Are you catastrophizing getting sick? Don’t get mad yet, stick with me. You describe your situation as “germaphobic” which suggests you don’t feel 100% comfortable with how you’re approaching this. I wouldn’t be, either. It sounds like you’re carrying a lot of anxiety about getting sick, and that’s putting a damper on your whole life, including feeling well! I think that Covid, rightly, trained us to reorient our thinking about the outcome of getting sick, but we have to take a step back and reframe: How big of a deal is it, really, if you get a cold? It sucks! It totally sucks to be sick…and it totally sucks to have limited sick days…but it’s also incredibly, incredibly *normal* to get a couple colds a year. You feel cruddy for a few days. You go through a lot of Kleenex. Ok…is that so bad, really? Is it worth expending a ton of energy on “germaphobic” thinking? During Covid, our end goal was “no sick, not at all.” But that’s simply not realistic in a real world full of real people. So if you’ve set your current goal at “no sick, not at all”–why? What is so terribly awful about getting a cold? (I’m assuming that you are not severely immunocompromised as you work in a busy public facing office; if you are, it’s probably time to game plan with your medical team what jobs would be appropriate because avoiding all germs is not happening in a client-facing setting.) If you kind of resign yourself to “there are things in life I cannot control, and getting colds is one of them. I’ll mitigate as best I can, but I accept I cannot control 100% for avoiding rhinovirus. The occasional cold is part of the business of living” maybe the anxiety can lift a little.

      The real problem here is limited PTO/sick–can you tackle that? Make a bid for additional time given your client-facing role? If the expectation of your office is taking time off every time you’re sick (even with “just” a cold), you need to have adequate time available! (And if that’s not the expectation…talk with your boss about what is the expectation. At this point, frankly, most of us are going to work with colds, especially after those first few days, because taking a week off for every cold is simply not realistic. Mask, wash hands frequently, yes, but not returning until symptom-free is not happening for most workplaces.)

      Reply ↓
      1. lysol please*

        No, you’re absolutely right–I still don’t think I’m “catastrophizing” but it’s mostly because of my PTO situation. I don’t care if I get a cold, but it’s not like people come in with their negative Covid/flu tests (is there an OTC flu test?). Because they won’t have tested for those things at all. I just have to take their word for it that it’s “just a cold” with absolutely no diagnosis to back that up.

        I only get 10 combined sick/vacation days a year. So if I get Covid… there goes half of that in one swoop. And I’m already out this year, so I’m being extra cautious until January. But even then… I’ll know I need to horde days just in case.

        Reply ↓
        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          There are OTC flu tests, yes. Which ones are available depends on where you live; there’s a combined COVID, flu, and one other that I can’t remember (RSV?) that’s available in Europe but US customs usually confiscates them if you try to order them from abroad.

          Reply ↓
      2. Caramel & Cheddar*

        She’s responding to people actively being sick in her face at her workplace. I’m unclear which part of that is “anxiety” so much as “reality of her experience.”

        It’s perfectly normal to not want to be sick, even if it’s something that’s “just” a cold, and the frequency with which people want to normalize illness these days is frankly bizarre.

        I will add that one of the reasons I don’t like getting sick, aside from the annoyance and inconvenience, is the increasingly large body of research that ties illnesses later in life to exposure to viruses earlier. For example, right now there’s a lot of research being done on MS and how it might be triggered by exposures to different kind of viruses 10-15 years prior to the onset of MS symptoms. It might “just” be a cold today, but it could be a major health problem ten years from now, and it’s not unreasonable to want to avoid the initial illness even if it’s true that illness is part and parcel of being a human on this earth.

        Reply ↓
        1. Busy Middle Manager*

          There are 200 cold strains out there, you’re going to have a very miserable life trying to avoid them all – no family gatherings, no plays/theater/concerts, no public transport, etc.

          Reply ↓
          2. I Have RBF*

            An N95/KN95 mask worn properly reduces the risk significantly.

            Source: My roommate takes public transit for over an hour each way to her work, wearing a mask, and hasn’t come down with Covid, RSV, flu or a cold all year.

            You don’t have to accept the germs of others to live in society.

            Reply ↓
            1. Anon4this*

              It’s different than if someone is right in front of you and coughs in your face and has the flu. I wear an N95 or KN95 during winter months if I’m in public transport, busy airports, busy shops, etc but I caught COVID from my kid even though I double masked because they coughed in my face! Whenever my kids are sick I always wear a mask to be safe and not spread germs. It helps a lot but is
              not 100%.

              Reply ↓
  35. Anon for this*

    Does anyone have any advice about being managed by a manager who doesn’t manage? My organization is a maturing startup going through growing pains, and as far as I know the founding leadership team (including my line manager) hasn’t been formally trained in operations or management skills. Our resources/headcount are still limited, so managers each work long hours and wear multiple hats, of which management is clearly their least comfortable. Adding to the challenge, we work remotely in different countries and time zones so I don’t know my colleagues well and have limited visibility on office politics.

    In my last performance review, the professional goals assigned by my line manager were so general they were useless: imagine “complete all projects,” or “improve communication.” I asked for more specific goals so I can know how my performance will be measured; for example, a target number of projects completed in 2025, writing more concisely, or responding to requests faster. He couldn’t answer. To put it another way, I asked, what is the difference between strong and weak performance? He couldn’t answer.

    During our 1-on-1 check-ins I have to set the agenda because my manager has nothing to say other than “what are you working on this week?” Half the time he has to cancel at the last minute or is in transit during our call. I recently went 2.5 months without any assignments from my manager and I can’t pitch new projects. I’m not using my full range of skills or learning any new ones; my last couple projects involved months and months of grunt work outside my area of expertise that no one else was willing to do.

    I’m not entry-level anymore and don’t expect hand-holding, but I’m not getting any guidance at all. He gets defensive about anything even resembling feedback, and is dismissive bordering on hostile towards my team lead. On the plus side, the organization has hired a couple new managers, of whom one will be tasked with redesigning operations. However, any new changes are at least six months away.

    How much direction should an employee expect from their manager, and how much self-managing/upward management is normal? How long should I wait to see if they can change before looking elsewhere?

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I don’t know how much direction you should expect from a manager in general, but it’s clear you’re not going to get any from this guy so you’re going to have to do a lot of managing up. I don’t think it’s weird to have you set the agenda, for the record, but aside from that I think this is where you just start setting your own goals/ expectations with quantifiable measurements and then ask him if they’re in line with what he was thinking for the next year. Since it’s clear he doesn’t know, whatever you do will probably fine if it’s within a similar scope/volume/whatever as what you did this year.

      Even if you think this shouldn’t be your task, think about it from the perspective of how you’re going to talk about this job on your resume next time you’re job searching. It will be tough with what this guy is currently giving you, so setting your own goals/expectations will help you set yourself up for success during the next job search.

      I would say this guy isn’t going to change, so independent of whatever else might with new processes and new management elsewhere in the company, do you want to keep working under this guy?

      Reply ↓
    2. Qwerty*

      Startups tend to be losely managed and self driven. The managers are often only managers in name only and busy doing other startup things. People rarely get assigned work, except maybe for new hires still getting their feet under them. Everyone else just figures out what needs to be done and does it. Working way outside of your expertise is completely normal.

      Setting the agenda during a 1×1 is pretty normal, even at established companies. The larger companies I’ve worked at have even required those meetings to be employee driven. If you don’t know how your manager is measuring you on your goals, then rate yourself quarterly and ask for him to adjust your self-assessment – that’ll take up two 1x1s since he’ll likely need time to think it over before correcting it.

      It might be worth considering whether you actually want to work at a startup – there’s a lot of expectation for structure and guidance here, which is the opposite of how startups function. They are the wild west and even when they start to transition to a “real company”, it generally takes years for that shift. I’ve worked at a few and I’d say 50% of the employees who joined during that transition phase hated startup life and left pretty quickly. Ask yourself whether you want the job that you have or if you are trying to change it into something completely different.

      Reply ↓
    3. ABC123*

      How are the judges reacting to Bill. I know in my area they are not too fond of attorney incompetence. Especially on criminal cases or does he keep it just under the level that would he sanctionable/reported to the bar?

      Reply ↓
    4. Girasol*

      A self starter should be able to take a clearly scoped project charter in his area of expertise and figure out how to do it with minimal hand holding. If you aren’t given a project and your suggestions of projects you might do aren’t gaining traction, it’s no failure on your part. Which looks better to you, applying to other jobs, or taking the chance that in six months you’ll land under a better manager? If you try to wait out the six months, could your limited output and your boss’s defensiveness harm your reputation with the company?

      Reply ↓
  36. Kesnit*

    I am the former public defender turned prosecutor who has posted about a public defender in my jurisdiction who is incompetent. (See open thread on October 4 for details.)

    One of my coworkers, Blair (who is also a former public defender), and I agreed that we would try to cut Bill some slack in order to hopefully make him more comfortable talking in court. (Not to the point of throwing cases, obviously.) That has not worked, as Bill is still as nervous as ever.

    Over the past few weeks, I’ve gotten some updates, in a round-about way. First, we have confirmed that the local PD office is sending a “baby sitter” (our term) to court with Bill every time he goes to court. This was not announced in any way, but it became obvious when we always saw another PD in court with Bill. When one of us would approach the other PD to ask if they were covering a specific case, they always said they weren’t and they were just there. Over time, it became obvious that they were there to watch Bill.

    Often, this back-up PD can step in and stop Bill from screwing up. But lately, there have been situations where they could not. Last week, Blair, tried to cut Bill’s client a break by giving them more time to pay restitution. (This is SOP in that particular court.) Bill objected to the continuance for reasons none of us understood. (The judge granted it anyway.) The backup tried to step in, but by the time he could, Bill had already made his objection.

    This week, Blair had an evidentiary hearing on a felony charge where Bill was defense counsel. Bill’s cross-examination was full of irrelevant questions. His argument – which he did not even have to make since this was just an evidentiary hearing – was 10 minutes of rambling incoherently. (Blair finally had to object and the judge took the opportunity to ask Bill to wrap it up.) After the hearing, Blair spoke to the back-up public defender. Although only so much could be said, the backup acknowledged that everyone in that office knows there is a problem.

    We suspect Bill is on a PIP, though obviously do not know the length of time or terms. (I’m sure the “not in court alone” is one of the terms.) Blair and I have reached the point of washing our hands of everything. I hate that it got to this point, but all we can do is wait out the public defender office until they let him go.

    Reply ↓
    1. Elsewise*

      That’s really rough, especially because it sounds like it’s having (or could have) some serious consequences for Bill’s clients.

      Reply ↓
    2. Strive to Excel*

      Oof. I have sympathy for people struggling in their roles but of all the places where you critically need competence, lawyers and doctors are the most serious. Blair’s mistakes are going to have a lot more impact on his clients than on himself!

      Is there any way that you can call him out on incompetence/ineffectiveness?

      Reply ↓
      1. Kesnit*

        Bill is the incompetent public defender.
        Blair is my coworker (and fellow former public defender).

        I’m pretty sure Bill knows he is not doing well. As I said, we suspect he has been placed on a formal PIP, so he has been talked to. Plus, he knows there is always another public defender with him in court.

        So far, neither Blair nor I have seen Bill make a mistake so drastic that it will have extreme consequences for his clients. HOWEVER, the local public defender’s office covers 3 jurisdictions and Blair and I only work in 1 of those. I have not talked to the prosecutors in either of the other 2 to see what Bill has done there.

        Reply ↓
  37. D C F*

    So it looks like I need to join the ranks of folks who have had to leave the non-profit world – or at least the library world – for a job with better pay. I’d love to get more into working in collections, cataloging or reference work. What ideas do you all have for new jobs and industries to look into?

    I’m not a librarian, but I handle materials, work with catalogs, pull holds, help customers – you know the drill. I’ve worked in the library less than five years after abruptly undergoing a SAHM-to-displaced-homemaker crisis in 2015. My strengths lie in all things words and cataloging. My challenges are my age (over 60) and my physical condition (standing or walking for hours is painful).

    Where should I be looking for my next steps forward?

    Reply ↓
    1. Tammy 2*

      You might want to look into Records Management/Information Governance. I used to be in academic libraries, my current job is in local government and is a really good combo of public sector culture (and benefits)/better pay than libraries, but there is a lot of this work in the private sector, too.

      Reply ↓
    2. Miss Direction*

      I’ll second Records Management. I’ve got an MLIS but have always worked in RM. Bonus points if you have any experience in digitization or implementing electronic systems or transitioning from paper to electronic collections. So many companies and local governments are doing this right now and the skills are highly valuable. Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    3. Aerin*

      Big, long-running companies tend to have archives, especially if they’re in any sort of creative or innovative field. (Thinking specifically of Disney’s extensive and well-managed archive.) I’m not sure what exactly goes into getting hired in such a field, but there’s the time-honored technique of looking up people who currently hold such a position and doing a bit of sleuthing into their history to see what path worked for them.

      Reply ↓
      1. Haz*

        Industry associations have them too, and universities, and I imagine things like insurance companies. They aren’t employers people think of. An old colleague didn’t have Masters, and was a records and archives person for the insurance bureau.

        Reply ↓
  38. Tilting at Windmills*

    I’m trying to bring on a co-op student to do some specialized teapot analysis work. And there is so much red tape involved!

    Our office is unionized by default – all jobs are part of the union unless they meet a certain set of criteria. This one doesn’t, so it has to be unionized. I’m fine with it, and the school is fine with it – in fact it turns out most of their co-op placements are unionized, so it’s really NBD for them. So far so good.

    BUT. We’re also not allowed to hire students to perform work that would normally be done by a member of the union! So, what the heck? How am I supposed to get a co-op student, if they can’t be part of the union and also they can’t be excluded from the union? Other departments have co-ops, so I know it’s possible, but maybe it involves some sort of arcane spell-casting at midnight during a full moon or something…

    Reply ↓
    1. Times New Sicilian*

      Is there like actual paperwork or software preventing you from taking on a student, or is this just confusion you have from reading written guidelines? To me it just sounds like “Students have to join the union when they’re hired.”

      Reply ↓
      1. Alex*

        Agreed–I don’t understand the problem. If the student is going to be part of the union, you aren’t hiring someone outside of the union. It sounds like they are just trying to prevent hiring non-union students to do work that the union should be doing.

        Reply ↓
      2. Tilting at Windmills*

        That’s what I thought too! But no, there is an actual rule that says “job responsibilities aligned with those of a bargaining unit job cannot be assigned to co-op students.”

        Reply ↓
      1. Tilting at Windmills*

        Yep, I’m doing that. Also I’m taking advantage of the fact that my main contact in HR is already off for the holiday, so it doesn’t look bad if I go over her head ask her boss for clarification. And I have some other strings I can pull if needed. It’s just frustrating, it should not be this complicated!

        Reply ↓
  39. PinkSoda*

    I would like to know what you all would have said/done in this situation.

    I work as a manager at a nonprofit. I work closely with our Maintenance Manager and his team. One of his maintenance guys, Frank, absolutely hates any change in process and absolutely hates email. This has been incredibly difficult to work around.

    Frank has two primary things he needs to do: 1) Check his daily email for my instructions, and 2) Ask me if he has any questions (not other managers). Last week, Frank did check his email, but he had a question about a setup, and he then went to another manager to ask about it. That manager got VERY upset, as she had just had a long meeting with me where we went over every single detail of the setup, and she thought I had passed incorrect info to Frank. Frank’s manager was furious, and called a meeting with HR.
    Here’s my issue: Our HR Director is… not great. She did explain to Frank why he needs to ask me whenever he has a question. But then, while looking over printed copies of the original email I sent, she said “Frank, were you confused because PinkSoda did not explicitly say there was an attachment to the email?” Frank, totally careless at this point, said “Uh yeah, sure.” I immediately said “Uhm, there are three times in the email when I refer to the attachment. Also, every daily email I send to Frank has an attachment. And Frank printed it, so I don’t think that was the point of confusion.” The HR Director then said “Well you didn’t explicitly use the phrase ‘Please see the attachment to this email.'” Frank’s manager stepped in to say the email was perfectly clear, and again, Frank had printed the setup document – so obviously, this wasn’t the problem. The HR Director ignored him, wrapped up the meeting, and said “Well I think we’ve all learned something here. And PinkSoda learned that she should always use the exact phrase ‘Please see attachment’ in email.”

    Am I wrong to feel that an email referring to “the attachment” THREE times is perfectly clear that there is, in fact, an attachment? To be fair, 95% of the time, I start an email with “Please see the attached…” but this one time, I did not. I just feel like the HR Director was trying to somehow make it seem like it was everyone’s fault, when it was really just Frank’s mistake. I was very polite and non-accusatory in the meeting, but now I’m feeling like maybe I should have been even clearer: my email was NOT the issue, Frank’s behavior was the issue. I’m not even sure that Frank understands that he caused this problem. Am I wrong here?

    Reply ↓
    1. Margaret Cavendish*

      Good grief, I think I would stab myself in the eyeball in that situation. You are definitely not wrong!

      This is stupid, but could you just start saying “please see attached”? Obviously you shouldn’t have to, but if HR (HR? Why where they even involved in this??) is insisting that your wording is the problem and not Frank’s attitude, then it might be worth doing.

      Then next week when Frank still doesn’t read his email, you can say you made the requested change and it didn’t solve the problem. Don’t let it be a slippery slope obviously, you can’t let HR (HR!!!) dictate the content of all your emails. But if you take this one thing at face value, maybe it’ll be easier to demonstrate that this is a Frank problem and not a PinkSoda problem? Good luck!

      Reply ↓
      1. Polly Hedron*

        PinkSoda can’t fire Frank because PinkSoda is not Frank’s manager, and, given HR’s response, Frank’s manager would have to jump through lots of hoops to fire Frank.

        Reply ↓
    3. Strive to Excel*

      No. Your HR manager is a loon.

      I’m curious: why did Frank’s manager call an HR meeting? Because the other manager got angry? And were they angry with you or with Frank?

      Reply ↓
    4. Ama*

      I honestly don’t understand anyone’s reactions here (except yours, PinkSoda because this is in fact bizarre).

      The other manager should have come to you first and asked you what info you gave to Frank.
      Failing that, *Frank’s* manager should have come to you first to clarify and then addressed the situation with Frank, not gone to HR (!?!)
      HR should have told Frank’s manager that they needed to talk to you not tried to step in and arbitrate a fairly run of the mill professional misunderstanding. Especially if they were going to then make such a bizarre hash out of finding a “solution.”
      I don’t get why HR got involved in this at ALL. Is this normal for your workplace?

      Reply ↓
    5. Apex Mountain*

      It doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong at all, but I don’t see why this got escalated in the first place to the point where managers were furious, HR was involved. Because Frank asked a question to the wrong person?

      Reply ↓
    6. Qwerty*

      Why was HR leading the meeting? Did you, Frank’s manager, and HR meet ahead of time to plan or was she figuring it out during the meeting?

      It sounds like HR was treating it as a sort of mediation meeting, which does tend to result in a “share the blame” conversation. If it was supposed to be a performance conversation, you should not have been in the room.

      Frank’s manager should be having his own performance conversations with Frank. If this is rising to a formal disciplinary process like a warning or PIP, Frank’s manager should work privately with HR on the paperwork and deliver those messages to Frank himself. Whether HR sits in on those meetings as a witness depends on the company and manager.

      You really shouldn’t be this involved in managing Frank, so push that back on Frank’s manager. And the other manager shouldn’t be reacting that strongly to a misrouted question.

      Reply ↓
    7. Cordelia*

      You’re not wrong, your response was absolutely fine – there’s a problem with your organisation. Is this otherwise a good place to work? Because it’s not normal that a staff member asking one person a question instead of another leads to managers being “very upset” and “furious” and calling meetings with HR.

      Reply ↓
    8. goddessoftransitory*

      People in the wrong: Not You!

      This was ridiculous and Frank is taking up entirely too much space and oxygen by refusing to do a basic part of his job. That HR kept wanting you to take the blame was absurd and insulting.

      Reply ↓
  40. Bummed*

    Inadvertently, a listing of salaries was posted during a meeting. Everyone saw what everyone else made. A peer of mine makes 30% more. We do basically the same job and have equivalent experience. The only difference is that they golf with some of the executives.

    I do make good money and my salary is probably market rate. I know that you normally don’t point out differences in pay unless it’s protected class related (it’s not). But the difference gets me.

    Is there any wording I can use to bring this up?

    Reply ↓
    1. Bummed*

      I forgot to mention that a new hire who has far less responsibility makes only a small amount less than I do.

      I’ll also add they leadership is always telling me how awesome I am and that they appreciate me.

      Reply ↓
      1. Lisa B*

        You note that your salary is “probably” market rate, but are you pretty confident in that?
        It would be worth doing some poking around to get a better sense if that’s still accurate or not. Then maybe something like: “When the salary information was accidentally shared, it highlighted some discrepancies I wondered about. My compensation doesn’t appear to be aligned with John and Frank, accounting for the differences or similarities in our backgrounds. Based on the strong feedback I get and from knowing our roles so well, I would have thought John and I would be making about the same, but his rate is significantly higher. And with Frank being so new I would have expected my salary to be much higher than his, but we’re actually pretty close. I know that there are lots of factors that go into compensation and I’m not asking you to disclose anything about John or Frank’s, but could we work with HR [or whatever your process is] for an assessment of my salary to make sure it’s aligned with the market and within the team?”

        Reply ↓
        2. Zona the Great*

          And don’t abide any talk of, “oh you shouldn’t have seen that/pretend you didn’t see that”. Nope. I saw it. Too late. Make things right.

          Reply ↓
            1. Lisa B*

              YES, 100%! Great point Zona. “I understand that sharing of the salaries was an accident and I respect that. But regardless of how the information came to light, the fact is that it did, and it’s brought these discrepancies up and I’d like a review of my salary in light of my responsibilities, experience, and the positive feedback I’ve consistently gotten.” I will say that reading AAM religiously has been so great in helping me think of “how would Alison word that.” I love her friendly-but-factual, “surely you can agree that this needs to be righted” tone.

              Reply ↓
  41. Mad Harry Crewe*

    I negotiated a 25% raise to take on a role with more independence and more responsibility, that plays directly to my strengths and fills a badly needed gap in our process. Started on Monday and my new manager is already saying what a weight off her shoulders it is to see me answering emails and taking work off her plate.

    What’s your victory or happy thing this week?

    Reply ↓
    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I am moving to a new internal role on a huge (target date 2027) implementation project in a couple weeks, and ran into both my grandboss and great-grandboss at our holiday party on Wednesday. Grandboss told me about how the entire management team of one of her other divisions (aside from mine) was raving to both her and my future boss about how awesome I am. Then Great-Grandboss pulled me and my current boss aside and “One, this is such a super awesome opportunity for you but we are so bummed to be losing you. But two, after this implementation is done, we 100% would love to have you back, so please when you are pondering your next steps, make sure you reach out to me and we’ll talk, because we absolutely treasure you.” I was BEAMING.

      Reply ↓
    2. Me, surprised but not really*

      I posted a couple of weeks ago about a (likely) childhood ASD diagnosis that wasn’t disclosed to me until recently. One thing I’ve been having issues with is hotdesking at my job.

      Office lead and HR are taking seriously an ask for a temporary accommodation to have a permanent workspace pending documentation (it’ll take a while), and I picked out my desk yesterday. Now if I can just get insurance to pay for ASD testing to confirm the childhood diagnosis, I can adapt the space to my needs and won’t have to repeatedly reserve it or risk losing it to someone. It’s by a window, so when my brain is work-loaded and fizzing, I can look at the cars going up and down the street.

      Reply ↓
  42. To Office or Not To Office*

    My boss offered me an empty office so I could move out of my desk currently in our open floor plan space. However, we’re only in the office 1 day a week, so I enjoy being able to see and talk to other people when I’m sitting at my current desk. Additionally, the empty office is currently used by my coworkers for phone and conference calls, so I feel like a bit of a jerk taking over it, especially given how few hours a week I would actually use it. But it’s the first time in my working career I would have an office and not a desk out on the main floor/cube farm, so the idea is really exciting. I’m really torn. Help!

    Reply ↓
    1. Betty (the other betty)*

      Moving to an office can feel lonely if you don’t need it.

      If having an office would improve your work, then take it. (Do you have a lot of calls, or need quiet to concentrate, or have a lot of private or noisy meetings?)

      Otherwise, tell your boss that you find sitting in the main area allows you to have a better connection with your coworkers, and you find that valuable since you are only in the office one day a week.

      You could also point out that the whole team uses the office for phone and conference calls so it’s already used for an important purpose.

      Reply ↓
    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      really doesn’t sound like you need it at all. Just keep it as a shared conference room and if someone starts hogging it, talk to them. Having a private office is not that exciting!

      Reply ↓
  43. Betty Beep Boop*

    Today in WFH, my spouse just came to get me to check on the dog (who is fine).

    Guess who threw up his entire chewy? In the background of a video call? While spouse was actively presenting?

    Thank God for blur, basically.

    Reply ↓
    1. Elsewise*

      My dog also threw up behind me while I was in a meeting this week! I had blur on thankfully (my home office is a wreck), but I was the notetaker for that meeting and had to quickly ask my coworkers to take over the notes while I went to clean it up. Fortunately it was an internal meeting and my team is very understanding.

      The dog in question is now curled up on a blanket next to me looking cute, blissfully unaware of my resolution to lock her out of the room whenever I have a client meeting.

      Reply ↓
    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Mine keep trying to interrupt my calls so I can let them outside to go romp in the snow. And then so I can let them back in to warm up. Every ten minutes.

      Reply ↓
    3. Don’t make me come over there*

      People on video calls with me often see an orange tail waving just under my chin, but not the rest of the cat who has just jumped onto my lap. At least this week the presenter also had a cat tail make an appearance!

      Reply ↓
      1. Jay (no, the other one)*

        After six months of daily Zoom meetings, I finally asked one of my coworkers to show me the cat’s face. I’d seen the tail almost every day….

        Reply ↓
  44. Metal Playground Slide*

    My spouse and I both have had managers who relatively recently have expressed that they’d be interested in promoting us into management roles. Which is great! The problem is both of us have a lot of impostor syndrome that runs pretty deep and in both of our cases, it seems to be a result of not having ever had the chance to be successful in management-type roles in the past.

    In my case, I’ve been in contract positions where I’m very limited in what I am permitted to do, so I have not been able to increase my skillset – and it’s been 20 years of this, so I am really freaked out that my manager sees untapped abilities and is actually wrong – that I would get promoted and fail, that I would not figure the new skills out on my own with no mentoring or practice.

    In my spouse’s case, they did get promoted a couple of times in previous workplaces. Both times, they did not get clear parameters, did not get adequate training, expectations were not explained, goals not set – they were dropped into the deep end both times and did their best, but with zero support or structure, they struggled. In case it matters, this was in a healthcare setting both times where you really cannot just wing it, there are regulations and needs that just were not communicated with Spouse.

    To me this feels different from an impostor syndrome where you’ve been in the role and doing the role and just feeling inadequate. Neither of us have successfully done what our managers are interested in having us do when the next opportunity comes along. I’m curious what suggestions or advice y’all might have. Neither of us wants to fail, but we don’t want to stagnate, either.

    Reply ↓
    1. Reba*

      Turn this feeling around – you are smart to recognize that you need mentoring and practice! Nobody is born knowing how to manage!

      Talk to your managers about realistic steps to build management skills, ask what trainings are available (and if the managers recommend them or other kinds of preparation) and what formal or informal mentorship you would have access to.

      Reply ↓
  45. Zona the Great*

    I left a job almost 2 years ago due to a very emotionally needy boss. He used us as his mom, wife, counselor, life and job coach, and friend. He needed all decisions made by committee and had major executive dysfunction. When I left, I said a lot this in my exit interview with HR because this man is at the helm of an org doing significant public service and he was hurting it. He tried calling me a couple of times after the exit interview saying he wanted to talk. I ignored.

    Now I’ll be running a couple of sessions at our state’s conference where he’ll definitely be. I’d rather not run and hide but I also will not engage him because I fear he’ll need emotional support or tell me about his feelings. Any scripts or advice?

    Reply ↓
    1. Hamster Manager*

      Allow yourself to not take on the emotional labor of this guy’s feelings, (or let him limit/dictate what you do at this conference, ie running and hiding) and treat him like you would any complete stranger at a conference. “Oh hello Eeyore, lovely to bump into you again, did you catch the session about honey pot designs? Oh bother, look at the time, I have to go prep for a session, hope to see you there!” (Note: don’t ask him any personal questions!)

      Reply ↓
      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I’d be even MORE avoidant of potential conversational traps:

        “Oh hello Eeyore, the session about honey pot designs was great, huh? Oh bother, look at the time, I have to go prep for a session. Bye!”

        I’m probably being paranoid, but “hope to see you there” could be misinterpreted and exaggerated to become “Oh, Zona the Great wants to catch up!” And any question opens up the potential further conversation. The former manager can’t be allowed any openings…

        Reply ↓
    2. Reba*

      Agree with just being cordial.

      And make sure to have (or be ready to say you have) dinner plans, lunch plans, coffee break plans already so you are not available for long conversations.

      Glad you don’t work for him anymore!

      Reply ↓
    3. Zona the Great*

      Thank you both! The advice not to ask about him is really good. I’ll practice now so I don’t pull an ADHD move and panic-ask him about himself.

      Very glad not to parent, er, I mean, work for him anymore!

      Reply ↓
  46. your favorite dinosaur*

    Been meaning to post this for a few weeks now. I’m a software engineer, working at a company that is not a tech company, but has a large IT department and a lot of software to write/support. I’ve been working in this kind of setting my entire career. We’ve had some big changes in the workplace this year and as a result, I’m feeling more job insecure than I’ve ever been in my life. I don’t know how to prepare for what I feel might be the inevitable. I am older X and don’t know if in my field, I am already unemployable due to age. An ex-coworker that is close to my age was laid off in 2023, and to best of my knowledge is still looking. A personal friend was laid off when he was the age I am now, never found a dev job and had to take a BA position because the bills weren’t going to pay themselves. And they were men and I’m a woman which is also not a great thing to be in IT. Not ready to retire and not close enough to retirement age. What do I even do? current position and pay are great and my team is even picking up new skills on the projects we are planned to be working on next year, should I ride it out or is it better to start looking proactively? the ex-coworker I mentioned above keeps telling me to start looking and says that the best time to look for a job is when you have a job. but I’ve been putting it off because I fear that a new job will come with a big cut in pay and working conditions, if I can even find one; and don’t want to waste time looking if it is 100% impossible for me to find anything. (Career change is also being tentatively considered.) Feeling like a dinosaur that just saw an asteroid in the sky and does not know how to hide from it. Thoughts?

    Reply ↓
    1. Lemons*

      I’d say focus on what you can control, and what will make you feel safest: money! Revisit your budget and start beefing up your savings now. If your pay is great, I bet you could do Austerity Mode for a little while and really beef up your emergency fund or other savings. Set specific goals around what will make you feel safest…6 months of expenses saved? 12? Is there any debt stressing you out you could knock out too?

      Figuring out how much I really need to live, living as far below my means as is comfortable (while still, you know, LIVING) and having a 6-month cushion sitting around makes me feel a lot more secure.

      Reply ↓
    2. Goddess47*

      And do start gently applying other places now, while you are still working. For one thing, it will make you spruce up your resume and let you see what else might be out there. One application a week (or whatever time period you want), just to start. And go for stretch jobs, ones you wouldn’t normally think you can do. That will help you think outside the box, especially if your current field is slow to hire.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    4. Girasol*

      I’m a woman in manufacturing IT who was part of a big downsizing. At 50 I was too young to retire and too old to be hired, at least, that’s what I heard. The job market was horrible at the time and still I got a job in 5 months, so it’s not completely hopeless. I would have been better off, though, if I had started while I was still employed on developing an up to date resume, saving good work samples, considering where I might look for work, scanning job openings, and thinking about a network of people to stay in touch with after I was no longer on the inside of the old company. I stayed in denial for my last several months before getting let go, when I could have been getting a leg up on job seeking. It worked out okay anyway, but you could do better than I did.

      Reply ↓
    5. I Have RBF*

      I’m a Linux sysadmin. I found my current remote job two and a half years ago, at 60. I started as a contractor, and was brought on as a regular employee. I am not working at an IT company, but I’m in an IT role. I am enby, but AFAB. It took me six months to find a job in my field after a previous job fell through.

      Tricks: When I interviewed, I dyed my hair a color “not found in nature”. I only had the last decade of stuff on my resume. When I interviewed, one of the things I looked for was a range in the ages of people who I interviewed with. Also, if they start in with the pop culture stuff, just tell them that you don’t watch a lot of TV, or whatever. (I think I was the only person who wasn’t obsessed with Game of Thrones, for example.)

      Yes, all of the tech golden companies tend to have a “young bro culture”. You probably won’t get far there. The young bros don’t know what they don’t know, and have a bad habit of reinventing the wheel, badly. But if you branch out into more traditional fields, where experience is more prized, you will get more traction.

      It absolutely takes significantly longer to find a job if you are over 60 in tech. It has been this was since the late 90s. But it is not impossible.

      Reply ↓
  47. tailwind hater*

    I really want a boring and repetitive job but still pays decently. Anyone have suggestions? I was considering accounting or business IT roles?

    I currently work as a software engineer and am so tired. This is my second career and I previously worked in more administrative roles. In the past, I enjoyed the monotony of things and having a list of rotating things to do, where something new wasn’t that much more different than day to day. Now in my new job, I’m having a hard time keeping up with the latest tech and frameworks (I work frontend for those who are also in tech..) along with the fire hose of different things that I need to master and fix. I honestly think I’m not smart enough to stay in this field and genuinely don’t care about finding a passion or excitement in my job. I work to pay my bills!

    Any thoughts would be lovely and much appreciated.

    Reply ↓
    1. Lemons*

      People alllllways want to hire people to do their Powerpoints and data entry, maybe something like that? Some kind of database management?

      Also, you sound burnt out! Do consider that the problem might be your job (which sounds really messy, ‘fire hose’ is such a red flag) and not an aptitude issue on your part.

      Reply ↓
    2. Lady Lessa*

      Quality Assurance and testing. A lot of test labs do similar tests all the time. Or working for a calibration company.

      Reply ↓
    3. Wingo Staww*

      Technical writing – you still get to learn about the technology, troubleshoot a bit, but the firehose is not aimed at you, so to speak…

      Reply ↓
  48. Lemons*

    Firing question!

    Years ago I was let go, neither the word ‘fired’ or ‘laid off’ were mentioned. The situation was sort of both, the company was eliminating my department one person at a time, but also I was young and let my frustrations with the job show more than I should have. There was no PIP or warning that my job was in jeopardy. The legal paper I signed listed it as a ‘mutual release’ (I’m in the US).

    So the question is: what answer do I give to the “have you ever been fired” question? I’ve never really known. Thanks all!

    Reply ↓
    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      I’d say No. Firing implies that the decision wasn’t mutual, and apparently the company has paperwork saying it was. Even if it was one person at a time, what you described sounds like layoffs to me.

      Reply ↓
    3. Sherm*

      If the mutual release meant that you were not eligible for unemployment benefits, then I’d say you were not fired, maybe not even laid off. You shouldn’t have to state you were let go if you were denied the benefits that are associated with being let go (assuming you weren’t let go “for cause,” such as doing something egregious or not showing up).

      Reply ↓
  49. FrontlinER*

    I work in healthcare and in direct patient care. I recently received an offer for a new position which I am excited about, but there’s one catch….its business casual dress. Dear readers, I have worn scrubs for the entirety of my career. I have cute scrubs and I’m so sad to part with them. I have one interview outfit which tbh is a little dated but gets the job done. Where do the business casual masses go to get their clothes? I am an early 30s cis woman and want to appear up to date and be comfortable. And fwiw I think this environment skews a little bit on the more casual side as we do our patient care over the phone. Obviously not jeans, but a step above? I live in a very large urban area of the US so I can go to pretty much any store.

    Reply ↓
    1. Medium Sized Manager*

      Abercrombie has been surprisingly good for some of this (like pants). I also like Old Navy for my basics

      Reply ↓
    2. Tradd*

      Business casual used to be khakis and a polo or other top. I always wore sweater twin sets from Talbots, but I am a good bit older than you. I’ve worked in casual offices for years now so I’m sort of out of touch on what office casual is. I have a uniform, though. Almost as easy as scrubs. Black pants and shoes. tops in jewel colors.

      Reply ↓
    3. Elsewise*

      In all honesty, I thrift most of my business casual clothes. There’s a thrift store near me that has a really good selection, and tends to get a lot in my size, which I love. Thrift stores can be pretty hit or miss, but if you get one with a good selection, it can be a really great way to fill out your wardrobe without breaking the bank.

      For the immediate term, I’d suggest running down to your nearest department store and grabbing a pair of black slacks, a few plain tops in different colors, and a cardigan or two. You can take more or less of any specific item depending on your budget. The blouses are going to be your best friend in making you look professional. Try on a few styles and see what you prefer. I personally tend towards sleeveless tops, because I can layer with them easily and I have large arms, but your body type, preferences, and climate are going to make a huge difference. Only get a few to start with so you can decide if you absolutely hate the style after wearing it a few times, or see if your coworkers are wearing something different that you want to try.

      Congrats on the new job!

      Reply ↓
    4. Hamster Manager*

      If you’re cool with thrifted clothing, ThredUp is amazing! I’ve gotten seemingly new Equipment silk shells for under $20, dress pants for $15, cashmere sweaters for $30, a lot of stuff in ‘like new’ condition and some even with tags. Lots and lots of dress pants and blouses for sale.

      It’s an online thrift store, click on the ‘premium’ tab to weed out most of the fast fashion, and set your sizes so it only shows you options you could actually wear.

      Reply ↓
    5. Hamster Manager*

      Also, discussing this with your new colleagues could be a way to bond! I bet some of them had to make this transition too, and lots of people love to give shopping tips.

      Reply ↓
    6. Just here for the scripts*

      Anne Taylor LOFT is my go-to. Also lands end and llbean for great dressy casual pants and leggings

      Reply ↓
    7. Emily*

      Seconding the rec of LL Bean and Lands End.

      Also, I’ve heard that Costco sells really good, comfortable work clothes, but I can’t vouch for them personally, as I’m not a member there.

      Reply ↓
    8. Forest Hag*

      Athleta has a lot of great things that are comfortable and washable, and fit into the business casual category. They are on the pricey side, so I watch the sales and then try a few styles. When I find something I like, I will then look on Poshmark or other resale shops and can find tons of options for like ~$20. I think their pants tend to be better than their shirts – I have many pairs of their pants (most of them from Poshmark), and they have all held up pretty well. Their Brooklyn pants are very comfortable and are a good basic slack/ankle pant.

      For tops I like Uniqlo, but usually need to size up as they tend to run small.

      Reply ↓
  50. KateM*

    I heard from our 9yo daughter that her teacher has recently (like last week) started to call her “Proffesorin”. Not exactly the same as calling someone Shorty McShortFace, but I feel this is still name-calling by the teacher and not professional on her part. Also, in all probability the teacher means it as a compliment (as our daughter is quite good academically, especially in maths, but it’s not her fault) – but what about the other kids? If they hear it, and start using it, *they* will absolutely mean in demeaningly. Our school is a local school which gets all kinds of kids, not necessary learning-oriented only. The teacher has sometimes gushed about our daughter to me, too – in hearsay of other children, and I have felt extremely uncomfortable.
    The school is within walking distance from our home, with good after-school programs and the like, and I am teaching there myself part-time. I would really like to both make it possible for my child to study there for at least 3.5 more years (then she could try for a maths-specialized junior high in city) without suffering, but also not mess up relationship with my colleague.

    Reply ↓
    1. Juliet O'Hara*

      How does your daughter feel about it? If she doesn’t like it, she’s old enough to tell the teacher to please call her by her name. If the teacher doesn’t honor that, that would be the time to get involved.

      Reply ↓
        1. Anono-me*

          Rather than a negative request like ‘Please don’t call me Proffesorin.”, would a positive request like “Please call me Kris.” work for your daughter?

          Also, your child cannot be the only student who is being called by the wrong name in your school. Can you advocate for some sort of a schoolwide practice that asks for and uses student’s best name?

          Reply ↓
    2. Hamster Manager*

      I don’t think it’s appropriate for teachers to give students nicknames, and especially since it sounds like the teacher is doing it in your case out of favoritism.

      Reply ↓
    3. Goddess47*

      If you’re comfortable with it, tell your daughter to not respond to the nickname. When the teacher inevitably does the “I’m talking to you” variation, you’re daughter can say, “Oh! I didn’t hear my name, so I didn’t realize you meant me.”

      If that doesn’t work, depending on your comfort zone, then you need to step in and point out that your daughter is not comfortable with the nickname.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    4. Hyaline*

      Given that it seems like a kind nickname, not a making-fun-of nickname, I wouldn’t come out guns blazing on this one. I don’t think nicknames are a very good idea for teachers to use given how fraught kids’ rapport with other students can be, and it can seem like favoritism, but I would be curious–does this teacher tend to give a lot of students funny/complimentary nicknames? Even this one nickname–whenever someone does well, is she like “Zehr gut, Proffesorin!” or is it just your kiddo? Do most students seem to roll with it if nicknames are a norm with her? And finally, how does your kid feel about it? If the answers to all of those are pretty benign, honestly…there are going to be bigger fights to have and taller mountains to climb in advocating for your kid at school! But if your kid is uncomfortable or this seems like it’s setting up an uncomfortable dynamic with any element of the class (teacher/students, other students/your kid, etc), then I would probably drop a line to the teacher and say “Susan loves your class! She mentioned that you’ve been calling her Proffesorin, and honestly, it makes her feel self-conscious. We’d both appreciate it if you just used her name.”

      Reply ↓
    5. RagingADHD*

      There is no reason this needs to be confrontational. If you see the teacher during the day, you can say something in person, or if not, send a message:

      “Hey, [kid] mentioned that you have given her a nickname in class. I know you mean it as a compliment, but it makes her feel singled out and we’re worried that she might get teased about it by the other kids. Would you mind sticking to calling her [kid’s name]?”

      Reply ↓
    6. Wingo Staww*

      This feels a bit blown out of proportion. That is a sweet nickname in my opinion. Your daughter is old enough to speak up for herself when it comes to what name she wants to be called. Talk to her about how she feels about it first.

      Reply ↓
  51. M313*

    Anybody else read the letters where a boss has asked for some absurd or outrageous thing and try to think up what job would make that request completely reasonable? Mind you, I don’t think that’s the case and the letter writers are just leaving out this extremely important detail, it’s just an odd little game I play with myself sometimes.

    “I don’t want to be pied in the face at work.”

    You’re a circus clown, come on.

    “My employer wants to pay a coworker and to have sex and record us.”

    You’re an adult entertainment actor, what did you think the job entailed?

    “My boss wants us to donate a kidney.”

    Uhh…

    Reply ↓
    1. Zona the Great*

      It is truly wild what bosses will ask for. I worked at a popular store in the mall that sold lotions and soaps that we all know and love/hate. One regional manager came around and suggested to me that I go out to the store entrance and dance for people to try bringing them into the store. My response was a deadpanned, “never- ever – ask me or any woman that again”. I don’t dance for (shitty minimum wage) money. I think I frightened him.

      Reply ↓
    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      Kidney donation

      You’re a butcher and it’s for a charity dinner. (The prompt didn’t say what kind of kidney.)

      Reply ↓
    3. anon24*

      Related, but sometimes I find myself entertained by thinking about how horrified most of the readers would be by the dynamics in my industry. Like if I told you:

      – The other day I told my boss I actually got a lovely 4 hour nap at work and he said it must have been nice and he was jealous.

      – The aforementioned conversation actually happened outside my apartment at 2am after my boss texted me to see if I was awake and if he could bring me my Christmas gift because I was the only employee that he hadn’t had a chance to get to on duty to give it to and he felt bad. Said gift was a travel blanket that he had given to all the employees.

      – During Covid, my boss came to my apartment to give me a Covid test (before at home tests were easily available)

      – My boss has given me a flu shot in a parking lot

      – I’ve had so many conversations about mental health and deeply personal topics with co-workers that would make Alison cringe.

      If you haven’t passed out from horror yet, you may have guessed I work nightshift in EMS :) We are on the road all the time, we spend a lot of time alone with our partner (in EMS partner is what we call the person we’re on the truck with that day, no romantic connotations involved) and we go through extremely stressful situations with our partners. There are people that I don’t know their spouses name but I know exactly how they handle life or death situations.

      Reply ↓
  52. cat_lady_8*

    Can anyone here comment regarding programming/software engineering hiring? My husband got caught in the tech layoffs and is having a ton of trouble getting to the final stages of interviewing. The current practice includes a technical assessment of programming skills, which I understand is more like a classroom exercise from a computer science curriculum. He does not have a degree, and is mostly self taught. He does have 20+ years of experience and was a high performer at his previous job for a big tech company. The technical skills assessment is the sticking point. Does anyone have any ideas for resources to improve assessment results?

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If these are in-person evaluations, he should be talking more. Analyze the problem on the fly and demonstrate that he knows how this stuff actually work.

      “There’s two ways to do this thing – options A and B. I’d do A if connectivity/bandwidth is a concern, otherwise I’d do B. Do you have a preference which one I show you now?”

      That statement above is a whole lot more useful in the real world (other than absolute software sweatshops) than being 30 seconds faster or having 1 fewer error than the next guy, who has no understanding of the actual business and assumes ideal conditions.

      Reply ↓
      1. cat_lady_8*

        Thanks. It does sound like he should try to work in comments along those lines. I think he kind of freezes up in the moment (interview nerves) and it might be worthwhile to rehearse.

        Most of the skills tests aren’t in person and can be in a bunch of different formats, and I think that’s a lot of the difficulty.

        Reply ↓
    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      Isn’t it just Leetcode questions? you can go to leetcode.com and there is a subreddit for popular question too r/leetcode

      Reply ↓
    3. I Have RBF*

      I hate the tech skills tests that are essentially obscure CS homework assignments that can be done easily by a recent grad, but just confuse people who haven’t seen the inside of a classroom in over 20 years, or don’t have a CS degree at all. I consider them to be discriminatory against those who are RCGs with CS majors.

      That said, there are a lot of sample “programming challenge” website for people to use to try to get ahead in this kind of CS weenie environment. Search for “programming challenges [language]” or “coding challenges [language]” to find practice problems to study.

      I have found that if I type the exercises into an actual computer and (compile and) run them, it sticks with me better. Classic ones are “fizzbuzz” or “credit card checksum (Luhn) algorithm”. Worst are the purely academic crap like “program a btree sort” or “reproduce this common Linux utility using [language].”

      Reply ↓
  53. lestat lestat lestat*

    I left a job after 5-6 years for another opportunity and a couple of years later wound up returning to the same job – now, a couple of years later, I’m starting to apply again (great workplace, just burnt out on the type of work). Should I list it on my resume as Job A Take 2 – Job B – Job A Take 1? Or Job A (Take 1, Take 2) – Job B?

    If/when I do get called for interviews down the line, is there a good way to talk about the rotation without seeming flaky? I left Job A on good terms for a raise/promotion, and returned for a promotion after Job B turned out to not be the best fit long term. This time I’m just looking to go from a very specific teapot painting niche to a different branch of teapot painting, even if it’s a lateral move. But I worry about looking like I’m job hopping!

    Reply ↓
    1. Goddess47*

      Since it was for promotions each time, it’s the “too good of an opportunity to pass up and I learned a lot” response. And a couple of years in each place isn’t awful…

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    2. I want fruit cake*

      I would do:
      Job A Take 2 – Job B – Job A Take 1
      and try and make the titles, responsibilities showcase the promotions. Then it doesn’t look flaky: it looks like Job A wanted to bring *you* back. it looks good. There was no not-fitting. You took two promotions.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ama*

        Yes I was going to say this! Going back to Job A means they liked you enough to bring you back ( and you didn’t burn bridges when you left), that can only be a good thing.

        Reply ↓
  54. Productive grinch*

    I have been given the chance to improve our onboarding training for frontline managers. I’m curious if any managers here have had memorable onboarding experiences: what made them meaningful? Thank you!

    Reply ↓
  55. Third Person*

    Looking for advice from other queer people: is there office etiquette for what to do when people misgender me in my earshot, but I’m not part of the conversation?

    When I get misgendered in virtual team meetings my manager (fully remote) and about half my coworkers (the remote team more than local) correct people so that I don’t have to take this on myself. But when working in office I overhear conversations in which the speakers are misgendering me.

    I’ve just been letting it go–our office layout makes it plausible that they don’t know I’m in the room, so standing up in my cube and revealing myself definitely seems overdramatic; butting into a conversation I’m not part of to correct them would be read as incredibly aggressive in our corporate culture; likewise, speaking to HR would be perceived as a massive overreaction.

    But also: it sucks to hear them talk about me that way! Do I have to just keep letting it go? Is there a way to fix this? For what it’s worth, I have my pronouns in my Teams profile and a pin on my bag. I was already openly nonbinary and using they/them pronouns when I was hired, so no one on the team has ever known me as a binary gender.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hiring Manager (they/them)*

      A couple of different thoughts, based on my experience:

      – Is there one (or two or more) particular offenders that you don’t know well? If so, you can speak to them outside of the conversation, make it seem more like an introduction, when you can make it quiet and chill and be like “hey, you probably don’t even realize this, but I’m so-and-so and I’m nonbinary and use they/them pronouns. I’ve overheard your conversation with Jack the other day and it made me realize I hadn’t actually introduced myself.” (I generally dislike having to put the onus of “blame” on myself, but it tends to smooth things over very well.)

      – Do you have some trusted allies around the office? At a previous job, I had been in a meeting with a few people where one person misgendered me and I corrected them, it was all super chill, but it did bring up the subject and I mentioned that I overheard people misgender me a lot and that sometimes I wish I had more help keeping that in check. The small group there was under the (fairly common, especially in non-confrontational fields) assumption that it was best for *me* to correct people all the time, and hearing that it took a lot of energy and that I wanted a helping hand made more people jump in.

      – How’s your relationship with your boss? Just because they’re remote doesn’t mean you can’t express what’s going on, and that you’re hoping they can offer some insight on how to best address the situation while keeping in line with office culture. You might be surprised – when inadvertent harassment happens (and this is harassment, in the legal sense, even if it’s not necessarily intended to be so), a good boss will do what they can to resolve the issue, with grace and tact.

      – I think it does matter who is having the conversation, because if it is mainly people you know and have good rapport with, you can poke your head in the convo and make it jokey like “hey, did you forget that I’m the office enby?”. There are some IT guys I work with pretty regularly and can just be like “c’mon, don’t hit me with that she/her!”

      I get what you’re saying about it being a massive overreaction speaking to HR – however, I would recommend that if you ever correct someone and they have an outsized reaction to it, you should get them to (bare minimum) document the issue for you. Additionally, if you correct someone and they continue to get it wrong, even if they don’t seem to be doing anything purposefully, get that documented as well.

      Finally, you can do as much or as little as you want. I’ve had other trans people tell me that I should correct people every single time and if I don’t, I’m not being a “good example” for other trans people; and I’ve had plenty of cis people tell me to keep my head down and don’t be confrontational, even though I firmly believe correcting pronouns is just being kind by having a direct conversation with someone. Whatever you choose to do in the moment is okay – and if you handle things differently in the future, that’s okay too. It can be hard being nonbinary in the world right now and I wish you lots of luck and goodwill.

      Reply ↓
  56. Lucy P*

    How do you manage your workload when: 1. Your main project is something that you have limited experience in, but it is so big that it takes up most of your day. 2. You still have your other day to day stuff to do, plus other special projects as they arise. 3. There is no chance of you getting extra help. 4. Your managers are just as busy to the extent that they either a. sit around with their head in their hands because of the volume of work and the complexity of the work, or b. forget the game plan they told you just the day before.

    I’m putting in an extra 30 to 60 minutes a day, but some of it never seems to get taken care of. Everything is highly prioritized and the day to day things are suffering. Right now it’s not a issue, but when a month or so goes by and some things haven’t been done, it could cause problems.

    Reply ↓
    1. Goddess47*

      Whether or not you might get blamed, think of it as a CYA situation. Take the time to document, document, document. It doesn’t have to be elaborate but send your manager a regular message that “I am doing X today, which means that Y will not be done until [later time].” Stick to the facts and to what you can do/control.

      You’re not in charge, so you can’t change things but I’m suspecting you might want to protect yourself.

      Good luck.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ostrich Herder*

        This is the key. You’re being assigned more work than you can reasonably do, even with putting extra time in. Get everything in writing, follow up verbal conversations with people who are going to forget with an email summarizing the decisions.

        I find myself in similar situations a lot, and have familiarized my boss with the concept of “The Line.” If I make a prioritized to-do list, I add a line below the last item I’m likely to do in a day. If something has been below The Line several days (or weeks) in a row, I specifically flag for my boss that it’s been on my list since [date], and make them confirm it’s okay to keep kicking the can. It’s useful for CYA, but it also sometimes knocks some sense into managers and they’ll reorganize to keep things from becoming a bigger problem through neglect.

        Reply ↓
        1. Lucy P*

          I like the idea of the line. I usually make a daily to do list and then highlight things not done by the end of 2 days.

          My other problem is that beyond my list, other things keep popping up that take greater priority. Plus, because we’re working on this project with onsite contractors, the contractors have no problem popping into my office when they need an answer. All of these distractions lead to me not doing something else (and sometimes forgetting completely because I didn’t write it down on the list).

          Unfortunately, we don’t do internal email (a long story), so written correspondence is not an option.

          Reply ↓
  57. Anon today*

    All the members of my team are pretty new and we work with another team in our department whose staff have been at the company for a few years. I’m pretty experienced in our field but because I’m new to this company, I’m still learning how things are done here. I’m frequently having an issue where I ask how things should be done so that when my part of the job is done its set up correctly for the other team, but the other team doesn’t know…? Or I’ll ask a question to them about whether my team handles something or their team does, and again they don’t know who should handle specific tasks. It seems like there is a level of institutional knowledge that’s not there and I’m having a hard time navigating things.

    Does anyone have any suggestions? I’ve tried to let my manager figure it out with the other team, but she’s even newer to her role than I am and can’t prioritize my questions because she’s been dealing with other bigger picture issues.

    Reply ↓
    1. I want fruit cake*

      No suggestions, but full on solidarity. I’m fairly similar. Experienced in some things, but need some pretty basic things explained, and … my team doesn’t seem to know.

      Reply ↓
      1. Anon today*

        I’m glad I’m not the only one in this boat! Does it ever make you wonder what was going on before you got there?

        Reply ↓
    2. Hlao-roo*

      For the case of you ask the other team “how would you like to us to set up this [form/spreadsheet/etc.] so when we hand our work off to you its in a good format for you?” and they respond “I don’t know,” my advice is to then go and create a template for the [form/spreadsheet/etc.]. Don’t get too attached to the template, it will just be a starting point. Then take the template back to the team and ask “here’s the template for the [form/spreadsheet/etc.]. Do you have any suggestions for how this could work better for you?”

      Some people blank out when there are too many possibilities but can offer useful feedback when they see something in front of them. “Oh, can you put the date in YYYY-MM-DD format instead of DD-Month-YYYY? And can you add a line for the project code? We need that for our work.” And the worst case scenario is they still don’t have any feedback, but you still have a template that your team can use.

      Reply ↓
  58. b_blocked*

    My relevant background:

    I am a manager (male), and I take a drug called propranolol which is a beta blocker, partly because it helps me be more confident at work, especially when presenting in front of large groups.

    Before taking this, when I knew I would have to present, I would get an intense feeling of dread (sometimes starting days before), that would cycle downwards up to the point of the presentation. It didn’t matter how prepared I felt, I would still have shaky/sweaty hands, and had trouble controlling my voice and breathing, among other symptoms.

    I was miserable, so I asked my doctor for anti-anxiety drugs. I was thinking/expecting e.g. xanax, but he recommended beta blockers which are much safer and non-addictive. They work by reducing the amount of adrenaline your body uses, which suppresses the physical symptoms of anxiety. It has been tremendously helpful for me (not just in work situations), and I feel much better than I did before I started taking it.

    The situation:

    We have a weekly all-hands meeting, and a somewhat junior member of another team presents every week. She is very talented, knowledgable, and in smaller groups, very confident, but I can tell she is struggling with presenting in front of the large group. She appears to be having some of the same grouping of symptoms as I was, with the most noticeable being a slight shortness of breath.

    That said, it’s not *that* noticeable, and she does appear to be doing a good job managing it as best as she can. But I feel empathy for her that she may be suffering in silence without knowing about this, or without at least having the confidence to know that she would not be “failing” or “unusual” by taking this drug.

    My question: Is there any way to bring this up with her without disparaging her? Would it be a mistake to share what I have here with her directly? Is there anything else I can say that would help make the message more “palatable”? I’m also worried that calling out that I do notice anything might make the situation worse (even if she never said anything to anyone and it just shook her confidence further).

    Thanks in advance.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think there’s a bunch of other stuff you can discuss with her besides medication. Public speaking classes, toastmasters, 1-1 sessions with you.

      Reply ↓
      1. b_blocked*

        Thanks for the suggestion, and I do agree to an extent.

        I honestly assume she was picked for this weekly presentation role explicitly *to* build this type of confidence. As I mentioned, she really does do a pretty good job managing it all things considered, and seems to be putting in the work both on the prep and the speaking itself. But I am sensitive to it and recognize the small things, because I see a reflection of myself in her, and I remember how stressful and miserable I felt (In fact I got stressed out just writing out my story, recalling my symptoms!)

        To me, it feels like seeing someone struggling with asthma and wanting to suggest an inhaler because then you know would be able to breathe normally again. But I know not everybody sees things the same way which is why I ask.

        Reply ↓
      1. b_blocked*

        Yup, this is the reason I haven’t. I don’t know her well enough, and she has never mentioned it to me directly.

        But I also know that I am not the only one who notices. Her boss stepped in to “give her a breather” once (said in a light-hearted way, but direct quote), so it’s not just me who has noticed. It’s especially tough because she absolutely is smart, and knows what she is talking about, so I really feel for her when she’s struggling because it’s so unfair (compared to how many confident idiots we all know, though luckily not at this company).

        That said, I can’t help but agree with you I think.

        Reply ↓
        1. Sneezyplus*

          I’m sure you’re not the only one who notices, but just imagine how awful it would be for her if half her audience came up to her one-by-one to say how they’d noticed her nerves and had a helpful suggestion to make.
          It would be much kinder to just listen to what she is saying and stop focusing on her nerves

          Reply ↓
          1. b_blocked*

            Oof, 100% agreed. It’s just tough, it gives me “flashbacks” of my own feelings sometimes when I hear her speak in large groups, and I want her to be able to feel the the peace that I now (mostly) feel. I think it’s possible some of it is even placebo, just feeling like I have control of my body again is liberating and empowering.

            But I know she is not me. And even for me, I had to go through the journey for myself. On a positive note, the stigma around these drugs is dropping and knowledge about them is increasing, so hopefully she’ll at least be aware she has options at some point (if not already).

            Thank you for your comment.

            Reply ↓
    3. Sneezyplus*

      I wouldn’t say anything. Maybe different if it was part of your role to coach or mentor her and she had raised this as an issue and asked for advice – although that advice shouldn’t be medication-related anyway. I used to hate presenting and would be visibly nervous and shaking. It made it so much worse if someone else pointed out that they had noticed how nervous I was, even if they were genuinely being sympathetic – I would be so much more conscious of it next time. She knows she’s nervous and she would presumably be capable of seeking help if she needed it – but with me, just doing more and more public speaking, out of necessity, is what got me over it. Maybe that’s what she’s going for.

      Reply ↓
      1. b_blocked*

        I’m glad that worked for you, and that’s exactly the reason I don’t want to say anything.

        In an ideal world I could say “You’re doing a great job pushing through, and I think you’re gonna get there, but here’s something that worked for me if you’re looking for other solutions”.

        But I totally agree that pretty much any way to say this is going to just make it worse. Part of the negative cycle of anxiety for me was realizing how noticeable it was to others, which in turn just made it worse.

        I just can’t imagine a way to have this conversation in a way that doesn’t leave her feeling worse.

        Reply ↓
        1. Angstrom*

          Frame it as a compliment/question? “You’re doing a great job with the weekly presentations! I used to get really anxious when I had to present to a large group, and that’s a common fear for the newer folks in my group Do you have any suggestions that might help them?”

          If that kicks off a talk about presentation anxiety, and she says she does suffer from it, that’d be an opening to mention what worked for you. If she doesn’t mention it, you’ve still had a good talk and given her a confidence booster.

          Reply ↓
        2. In My Underdark Era*

          I think maybe it could be shared in a moment of commiseration if the topic of presentation anxiety was already up for discussion: “oh yeah, the real game changer for me was honestly to take a beta blocker” or something like that.

          it would probably mean disclosing your medication in front of multiple people, and in the wrong office culture it could land like a brick on a glass counter, but it might be less harrowing to overhear the advice in conversation than to have it pointedly suggested to her.

          so glad you found something that works well for you!

          Reply ↓
        3. linger*

          Mostly I agree. But if you *really* feel you need to bring it up, here’s one approach that might avoid making her feel worse about it.
          Start with a genuine compliment on her presentation.
          Either she’ll deflect with a comment about how nervous she is, which gives you an opening (“I think most people feel that way, I know I do”) to discuss some ways to handle that;
          or she’ll accept the compliment, in which case, you could ask what she does to handle her anxiety about public speaking, and mention it’s something you’ve struggled with yourself.
          Either way, you should only bring up your medical solution if she is asking for suggestions.

          Reply ↓
    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      Compliment her work on the presentations. Then turn it around to yourself: “I used to DREAD presenting to people. I had so much anxiety about it! I’d get shaky and have a hard time breathing right. My doctor actually prescribed beta blockers that I can use before presenting to help manage that. It’s been a game-changer for me, but I still don’t envy folks who do presentations as often as you do.”

      Reply ↓
  59. There are in fact silly questions*

    Folks who deal with finances, particularly in academia…how much of a pain would it be for you to pay out a small expense in January that was incurred during this calendar year?

    I’m owed a fairly modest reimbursement (~$100) from this fall from an academic institution I did an event with but am not employed by. I then promptly got very busy and totally failed to follow up, which is fully my bad, and now I’m trying to decide if it’s worth following up with them after the new year. If it’s liable to cause a hassle I’d be OK with eating it, particularly because I’d like to stay on good terms, but I’m also very anxious about financial discussions and aware that’s coloring my feelings here.

    Thanks in advance for any thoughts!

    Reply ↓
    1. Forest Hag*

      I worked in IT in academic, supporting a lot of the business applications and people in finance and campus depts, so I’m familiar with the culture. What you describe sounds fairly typical…especially when it comes to faculty. They can be notorious about not getting in expenses in a timely manner and having to be reimbursed months out. The institution likely has a time limit on how far out expenses can be submitted – so I would call the department or contact person you worked with, and first see if there’s still time to submit. If there is, go ahead and ask for the reimbursement. As long as you are respectful and not pushy or demanding, then you will most likely stay on good terms with them. It’s the people who act entitled (especially if they are trying to get something reimbursed past a hard deadline) that get on the bad list.

      Reply ↓
    2. RA*

      The university that I used to work at had a 90-day policy on reimbursements, after which point you could still be reimbursed but there’s a bunch of extra paperwork/justification that has to be done. Personally, I would go ahead and submit the request.

      Reply ↓
    3. katling*

      In my case at an academic institution, we’re not on a calendar year budget cycle so that aspect wouldn’t be an issue. I agree that you can reach out and acknowledge the delay and see if it’s still possible.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ama*

        Yes I worked in academia for a while and I’d be really surprised if an institution was on a calendar year financial cycle. The main issue is going to be if they have a set period of time in which you need to submit your reimbursement and how strict they want to be about it. (I can tell you most institutions will be used to dealing with academics who aren’t always great at submitting admin forms in a timely manner.)

        Reply ↓
  60. Morgi Corgi*

    Here’s something I’ve been wondering about from a while back, can a company offer you a starting salary, then, once you’ve signed the paperwork tell you you’re actually getting a lower salary?

    Last year a new company purchased our department (and just our department) so we all had to reapply to our jobs. The new company offered me a significant pay bump and a small promotion so I accepted the position and signed the employment agreement. Then they told me they hadn’t meant to offer me a raise and promotion, so I wasn’t going to get either, but they made it pretty clear they still expected me to work for them because I signed agreement. This extended to them calling me on my personal cell multiple times while I was on vacation to pressure me to sign a new agreement.

    Is that normal? Or even ethical? Sadly, I’m sure it’s probably legal.

    Reply ↓
    1. Emily*

      That sounds bananas to me, and absolutely unethical, but I can’t speak to its legality. So sorry this happened!
      In your shoes, I’d be looking for a new position, ideally with a different firm.

      Reply ↓
    2. Ostrich Herder*

      Definitely not ethical, and not normal outside of shady or disorganized employers. It’s probably legal, though. Very few people actually have a formal, enforceable employment contract in place, though it sounds like you have more paperwork than most would, so I’d be curious to see what that said.

      My understanding is that, without a formal contract, they’re just changing the terms of the job. You can choose to accept that and keep the job, or decline and resign. If they cut the pay far enough, it might count as constructive dismissal and be enough to get you unemployment…But I’m not sure if that would come into play if they just decided not to give you a raise they had talked about, rather than paying you at the higher rate for a while and then taking it back.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ostrich Herder*

        Also! These guys suck and I wish you good luck in finding a new position where you’re not treated like this, because it’s awful and you don’t deserve it!

        Reply ↓
    3. Strive to Excel*

      1. No, not normal or ethical.

      2. It depends on if you mean agreement in the American sense or the actual contract sense. If they can force you to work for them based on the agreement, then you should have been able to force them to either let you go or pay you what was originally promised, otherwise they would be in breach of contract. If it’s more the American style agreement, they are totally legally able to renege on the pay and promotion, but they can’t force you to stay and you can tell them to kick rocks.

      Reply ↓
    4. A Significant Tree*

      Agree with the others, it’s not normal or ethical. I hope they at least kept you at your same salary but since it was their mistake and they were pressuring you, they should have given you at least a small retention bump. “Made it pretty clear they expected me to work for them because I signed agreement” – yes, but you expected them to honor the terms of that agreement too so…

      Reply ↓
  61. Retail Dropout*

    What are everyone’s thoughts on putting your high school in your LinkedIn? I used to exclude it, but I’ve heard from other people that it can be good for connecting with people you went to high school with, so I added it on, but I wasn’t sure what the general rule for it might be

    Reply ↓
    1. Sneaky Squirrel*

      Generally, I follow the guidelines of not putting my high school on a resume for job searching unless it’s the highest degree obtained (and even then I just put HSD and not the school because recruiters typically arent interested in which high school unless running a bg check). However, if the goal is to make connections on linkedin to connect with high school classmates, I don’t think it hurts anything from a professional perspective. I don’t know how commonly used it is but it sounds like a valid way to attempt to connect with former classmates in a professional format.

      Having your year of graduation will be a signal of your age, but presumably people with advanced degrees listing their graduation dates would have this same issue.

      Reply ↓
    2. WellRed*

      Unless you’re in some small or smallish town where these connections matter more, I don’t see the point. Me listing my New England high school didn’t help with a job in Boston and certainly not with my Midwest headquarters current job.

      Reply ↓
    3. Rick Tq*

      Everything you put on a social media site is information scammers can use for their social engineering attacks, so leave it off. As far as I see the only exception might be if you went to a specialty or competitive entry high school that is famous in its own right.

      Reply ↓
  62. Roll*

    I posted in last week’s thread about asking my manager if I was going to be let go after being passed over for a promotion and him making comments about adding to my resume.

    I didn’t ask him that. With the advice from some other commenters, I’ve come up with a script to ask how I can make sure my name is at the top of the list next time promotions come up, and what improvements or skills I should focus on. However he’s out for the next two weeks, so I’m working up the courage to ask the first question to the person directly involved with promotions in the department. I’m also trying to figure out how to phase the question considering news that the company isn’t doing well and upper management is cracking down on everything from attendance to office supplies starting in the new year.

    I’m still nervous that there is a chance I’ll be let go after the holidays, but right now I’m focused on doing the best job I can… and polishing my resume.

    Reply ↓
  63. Aerin*

    In my first week back at work after my leave for burnout/stress/brain fog. Trying to work through the accommodations piece, and it was a bit of a battle initially bc my org is making a HUGE deal about increased on-site presence, and I was adamant that there was no way I was gonna be able to get anywhere near the required percentage. Our chaotic open floor plan is the entire reason I had to go on leave in the first place, and no amount of little adjustments made it tolerable.

    But my HR person has been really great and my psychiatrist is very supportive. Talking through it with them, while not always the most fun, has made me realize that the main thing is that for my primary job duty (duty A), I absolutely have to have a space that’s quiet and private. So there’s my home office, or they can find me a place on-site. I also have regular duty B and intermittent duty C, which are much more manageable on the floor, and quarterly duty D, which isn’t on the floor at all, so I can come in on days when I’m only scheduled for those.

    So this way I get to avoid being caught in the power struggle that currently is the WFH percentage. (I actually like coming on-site! But it’s tiring, and there were times that trying to do duty A was unbearable.) I’m also really grateful to all the voices, not least AAM, that have helped me learn how to stand my ground and advocate for myself. Knowing that I don’t have to white-knuckle through, and can actually ask for and expect help, has really improved so many situations for me!

    Reply ↓
  64. Almost Academic*

    Our office is about to “close” for 2 weeks, and I have SO many tasks on my to-do list still. I feel super far behind on everything, but also ineffective and close to burn out. Taking time off will also result in me being even more behind, because I know folks are going to continue to work and ship stuff along. Not sure if getting things off my task list while the holiday is going is more effective to steer me away from the ledge, or if taking the proper time off to rest and be with family is actually more effective. Any thoughts, advice or motivation?

    *I say “closed” because the office is technically closed with everyone on PTO but in reality nearly everyone will be checking slack and continuing to work every day because that’s just the tech startup culture for the office.

    Reply ↓
    1. Aerin*

      Rest is more effective! Unless you’re talking about a couple of stray tasks that you can knock out early on, I doubt you can make enough of a dent to make up for not getting to disconnect.

      Reply ↓
    2. Sneaky Squirrel*

      While I can understand the desire to get caught up (and it’s something I personally am looking forward to next week because my office is not closed but many will be out), you should take the rest. If you’re anything like me, you’re always going to be behind on tasks. You might catch up for the minute but it’s just going to start piling up again after the holidays. Time off to take care of yourself will be more effective.

      Reply ↓
  65. Ostrich Herder*

    I work for what is effectively a two-person company – there’s the owner and me, and a few contractors here and there as needed. It’s the time of year where vendors and clients send us treats – cookies, gift baskets, local baked goods, the occasional bottle of booze, etc.

    When it’s a client whose account I haven’t worked on at all, I don’t blink when my boss takes the gift into his office and I never see it again. But there are a few accounts we split the work pretty much evenly on, and even a few where I do all or the vast majority of the work, where he… Also takes them into his office and I never see them again. A client I’ve worked with extensively, and almost exclusively, sent a fancy charcuterie box addressed to the company today. It’s sitting, unopened, in my boss’s office. I just heard him on the phone telling his wife they could use it for their Christmas party tomorrow.

    My boss has done this in past years, and it’s always quietly bugged me. But this particular client and I talk a few times a week and I actually helped her plan a charcuterie board for a party she hosted herself a month or two ago, I’m sure that’s why she chose that gift and I’m sure she’ll ask how I liked it. From a professional ethics standard, my boss is obviously being a jerk. But will I look bad if I go “Oh, actually, I didn’t get a chance to try it.”

    Reply ↓
    1. juliebulie*

      You won’t look bad. Your boss will look bad because he’s hogging all the gifts. There is probably not a tactful way to ask clients to address specific gifts to you, and even if they do, who’s to say your boss wouldn’t confiscate those as well.

      I don’t know how you can ask your boss to be considerate and share his goodies. You probably can’t. But maybe you can snatch a few things from the gift baskets before he can get to them.

      Reply ↓
    2. Pickles*

      A tactful way is to say that it was beautiful and your boss was able to serve it at his party. Thank you!

      He’s tacky though

      Reply ↓
  66. Murph*

    Any suggested scripts for asking about family leave policies at a super small nonprofit that doesn’t qualify for FMLA?

    Reply ↓
  67. Recovering Hipster*

    Help! I submitted a job application last night (it sounds like a great fit) but in my rush to submit I forgot to add in a few extra qualifications. There are thousands of applicants for jobs in my industry so I wanted to get my info in the system asap.

    Does anyone here have any thoughts on re-submitting my application? I can’t re-submit with the email I used to initially apply, so I’d have to use a different personal email for the application. I checked the site and I’m not able to edit my application.

    I worry that if I do, I will be disqualified (they do that with multiple submissions for contract jobs) or maybe I’d just look spammy……but —rrrr– I wish I would have thought of this last night instead of this morning. : /

    Reply ↓
    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Honestly, not worth the risk. Put this out of your mind and keep applying to other roles. If you get an interview, then attach an updated resume while scheduling the interview, i.e.,

      “January 5 at 3:00 pm works great. Also, I’ve attached an updated resume, which includes some additional qualifications that may be relevant to this role.”

      Reply ↓
  68. Gingerbread Girl*

    One of the higher-ups in the company I work for (200 EE) has recently started with the phrase “We are family” when describing company culture.
    This statement is considered a red flag by many job seekers – it isn’t translated into “we care about our employees” which is what she means but “we will take advantage of you and not reimburse you properly”. Does anyone have a short phrase I can suggest she replace it with?

    Reply ↓
    2. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      You already have it: “We care about our employees.” Could be made stronger/not sound like fluff by following with a couple of real examples that demonstrate that the company cares about its employees.

      “We care about our employees. For example, we…”

      Reply ↓
    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      What about going straight into the description and skipping any platitudes at all?

      “At Otter Caretakers, our culture is [principles with concrete examples]…”

      Reply ↓
    4. Leo the lion*

      “We want to support you however we can”? Not as catchy…
      Or, “at Company, we value/care for our employees by x, y, and z.”
      “You matter to Company”, “we love our employees”, “we are a formal group of semi-friends bound by a unspoken professional contract, plus we give you money and benefits”

      Reply ↓
  69. Strive to Excel*

    “We care about our employees”.

    That said, it will be a lot less effective than saying *how* you care about your employees. Do you enforce a healthy work/life balance? Give good bonuses? Have good PTO? Good reviews from internal reviews?

    Reply ↓
  70. Original Muffin*

    Just got my year end bonus and…it was significantly less than expected. Like 33-40% less. Bonuses are discretionary, but I calculated what to ask for and what to expect mathematically based on revenue I directly generated for the company. My benchmark was last years bonus and that’s what I used for calculations. The company had increased profits this year and I made substantially more money for it than I did last year. And the bonus was underwhelming, especially when compared with others at the company who got a lot more relative to what they produced. It’s a super small place so it’s hard to make many comparisons but I really don’t understand what happened here. I’m quite experienced in my field and had a good performance review in August (some areas of opportunity but nothing negative) with no negative feedback since then.

    Basically the small bonus increase from last year does not appear to correlate with the company’s increased revenue and my increased personal performance. It’s also out of line with others, although to be fair I’m in somewhat of a unique position at the company. I can’t help but feel like they’re trying to send a message here but it’s not lining up with my metrics or feedback.

    I’ve asked for a conversation with my supervisor to address it, but I’m really disappointed and frankly financially concerned both for next year and my long term future. Any thoughts are appreciated.

    Reply ↓
    1. WellRed*

      That does sound odd, although I’m curious what message it is you think they are trying to send. You sound like a high performer. Is there anything else that has felt out if wack lately at the company? Asking for a converse a good start and you will lay out the reasoning you included here. Any chance sa mistake was made elsewhere?

      Reply ↓
    2. Tradd*

      I’m sorry, I can so relate. The bonus at my office has been a full paycheck for years (way before I got there). I got that the last two y ears. Today, we got a bonus that was less than half of the usual amount. Now, business was pretty bad the first half of the year (much better second half) and I’d rather get something rather than nothing. However, they never tell you in advance anything about the bonus. It just shows up in your bank accout around Dec. 20th. I confirmed with two other coworkers and they both got less than half of the regular amount.

      Reply ↓
  71. Laid Off*

    Quick question.

    Unfortunately, a number of people at my company were laid off this week, including me. In my offboarding meeting, I was told to expect the severance agreement in my email by close of business Friday. We are on the East Coast, and I haven’t received anything yet.

    I sent off an email to both HR and my manager, as well as a text message to my manager. If I don’t hear back in a few business days, what other actions should I consider?

    Reply ↓
    1. UnemployedInGreenland*

      I’m sorry. That really sucks.

      I would contact a good employment lawyer, just to have someone you can reach out to with questions. But I would also think that this might take until Monday. These things often take longer than expected. Everyone wants to get all the details correct.

      I hope you hear something soon. Focus on what you need to do for yourself – finances, reaching out to your network, updating your resume, getting some rest. I wish you the best.

      Reply ↓
    2. Pickles*

      I would give it a beat. They are probably still editing stuff. I bet you’ll have it by Monday and then holidays kick in.

      This all assumes you are in the US

      Did they give you your last paycheck? Are you still on benefits? I would be most concerned if you need to get healthcare by Jan 1st.

      Otherwise you kind of have to wait. Anything they offer is a nice to have unless you have a contract or union.

      Reply ↓
      1. Laid Off*

        Did they give you your last paycheck?

        I actually just checked and no, I didn’t get paid for the last pay period!

        Disregarding everything else, I’m assuming this now falls under “call several employment lawyers. First thing on Monday.” territory.

        Reply ↓
  72. Can we have a Good Work New Thread?*

    Hi all – after being out of full time employment for 16 months, I finally got a really great job offer yesterday. I really like the company – they are doing cool stuff with AI in my field – I negotiated a higher salary after their first disappointing offer, and I am genuinely excited about the people and the job.

    True, I also found out I have Covid yesterday, but overall, it was a good day. (I’m fully vaxxed and boosted so my case is mild but still not fun.

    Anyone else finishing the year on a more positive work note?

    Reply ↓
  73. Mad Scientist*

    Well, today was my last day at a job, I went into an empty office, left my computer and ID badge on my desk, and walked out in silence. It feels pretty anticlimactic and strange… I didn’t expect fanfare or anything but it would have been nice to say goodbye to a real human on my last day. Don’t get me wrong, I didn’t expect anyone to modify their WFH schedule simply to say goodbye to me! But it just feels odd and I find myself strangely nostalgic about the last time I quit a job, which I really wasn’t expecting!

    Reply ↓

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