disgruntled ex-employee keeps contacting current staff, a toxic friend, and more

by Alison Green on October 10, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Disgruntled ex-employee keeps contacting current employees

We had an employee, Lark, who served as a director in our business for about eight months. She chose to put in her notice and leave the company this summer. During her tenure, she repeatedly told several members of leadership that she was unhappy, looking for another role, and hoped we would just walk her out. She never said anything like this to me or my husband (the owners of the business).

At the end of the first week of her notice period, we told her that she seemed stressed and was dealing with a lot and she could just take the following week as paid vacation time and not return to the office.

After she left, we found out that she was routinely inserting herself into situations that a director should not have been in (such as sorting out daily tasks for entry-level employees) and was constantly telling people that she was the only one who got anything done and she was their “buddy” or “champion.” She never raised any of the issues she was supposedly advocating for in any management meetings.

Now that she has been gone for six weeks, we are hearing that she is regularly contacting current members of the management team to ask how project X is going or if they completed project Y — work-related issues that she has no business being involved in at this point. It is causing team members to mistrust senior leadership or not be honest with us.

She doesn’t work here, so what can we even do? Everything is hearsay right now because the people she’s contacting won’t show us the evidence (one told us before he quit, which is how we know). We need our team to see how toxic it is for any former leader to be inserting themselves into private business matters and undermining the leadership team. But we also know that if they don’t trust us and we tell them to stop sharing this information with people outside the company, it may give them more reason to mistrust us. What do we do with this toxic behavior?

This is bizarre! Why on earth is someone who no longer works there asking people whether they’ve completed specific tasks? It almost sounds like a continuation of the problems when she was there and wanted to be seen as everyone’s champion, and now that she’s gone she can’t let go of her identity as Extremely Involved … but it’s pretty wild to see that happen when she was only there for eight months, and it’s quite weird that the rest of your staff doesn’t find it odd.

In any case, it’s not strange or suspicious to remind employees that they can’t share internal info outside the company; that’s a very normal policy to have.

The fact that people don’t think it’s weird that a former employee is still inserting herself in this way makes me think that you might have deeper cultural issues than whatever’s up with Lark. The only way to solve this is to lean in hard to good management right now — meaning make sure managers are appropriately engaged with the work their teams are doing, hearing people out and ensuring people have opportunities for meaningful input that you take seriously, being as transparent about possible about decision-making, ensuring people are recognized and rewarded for good work, and otherwise demonstrating through your actions that you’re operating with integrity and openness. That’s the best counter to a toxic former employee like Lark who’s trying to undermine you — but it will take sustained commitment on your end to doing that.

Related:
my toxic former employee is still spreading negativity on my staff

2. When a toxic ex-BFF joins your company

This question is for a very dear friend of mine, Marlie. Marlie works in a very competitive industry. We are both still at the beginning of our careers and are close with a lot of friends from college. Marlie had a close college friend, Amanda, who she bonded with over their shared field and similar backgrounds. After college, they both landed jobs in major cities. They stayed in touch and traveled together, and I joined them on a few of these trips.

They had some personality clashes, but things really started to fall apart about a year ago during a vacation. Some of Amanda’ bad behavior included: not bringing her wallet and making us pay for most things (this happened almost every time we’d go out with her), lying and calling Marlie names behind her back, almost abandoning my friend when she decided to hook up with a guy my friend had expressed interest in (this has happened more than once), calling Marlie desperate and criticizing her taste in men, cursing us both out while drunk, and unfollowing Marlie on social media and leaving her texts on read.

Fast forward, Amanda lost her job a few months ago and has been searching for a new one. Meanwhile, Marlie is thriving in her job and is very happy. A few weeks ago, after a year of no contact, Amanda reached out asking for interview advice, as she’s interviewing for an open position at Marlie’s company. Marlie never responded.

The interview was last week, and there’s a real chance she’ll get the job. Marlie is nervous about the potential of Amanda joining her company and worried she will disrupt the positive work environment. They wouldn’t be on the same team, but she would still see her regularly. Amanda would also likely try to reconnect, especially given the social dynamics at the office. If Amanda gets the job, how should Marlie handle this situation? How can she maintain boundaries with minimal drama and questions from coworkers?

Polite professional distance.

Some behavior is bad enough that it would warrant Marlie talking to the hiring manager and sharing her experience with Amanda, but the stuff on this list doesn’t rise to that level. Amanda sounds like a bad friend and not someone you’d want to hang out with, but it’s all pretty solidly stuff that points to just not renewing the friendship rather than anything more.

If Amanda does get hired, Marlie should be polite but distant. If Amanda makes overtures to grab lunch or otherwise hang out, Marlie should politely decline, saying she’s too busy or so forth. If Amanda pushes the issue, Marlie might need to say, “I want nothing but the best for you, but I don’t think the friendship was good for either of us so I’d rather just be colleagues with different boundaries than we used to have.”

3. Are these interview red flags?

I’ve been interviewing for a new job for the past two months. I thought I had gone through the final round (with the head of HR and the managing director) and then was told last minute that there was one more interview with a senior member of the team, who sits across the country from where this position is based.

As soon as we got through the pleasantries, she proceeded to tell me that they had to fire the last person in the role, their name, the dates of their tenure, and the fact that they failed multiple performance improvement plans before they were let go. We work in a niche and small field. While I don’t happen to know this person who was fired, I very well could.

I’ve never experienced anything like this before, and it is giving me very serious pause about the role. Is this a major red flag? There were other parts of the conversation that were alarming to me, namely, that this person relayed very different information about the annual sales targets (she said they were three times what I had been told by HR), bragged about leaving for the office at 5 am in the morning during the summer months, and gave me conflicting information about the in-office expectations. More seriously, a job can be the wrong fit for any number of reasons, especially at this phase of my career and I would hate to think that if I decided to move on in a year or two, I would be badmouthed all over town about it.

Run. This is going to be a clusterfudge.

If it were just the discrepancy in the sales targets, I wouldn’t be so worried (as long as the numbers sounded reasonable to you) because HR often doesn’t have the nitty-gritty info about a job in the way a manager will. But all the rest of this = huge red flags.

4. My manager gave me her personal money for a work item I bought

My company has a $300 cost limit for a certain type of equipment, but the internal website said the limit could be overruled by higher management approval. My equipment was failing, and the cost for a new one of the exact same brand, specifications, etc. was about $315. My manager approved the purchase, as did her manager, so I purchased the equipment. My reimbursement request was rejected for going over the $300 limit. When my manager and her manager got involved, they were told by the expenses team that despite what the website said, there was in fact no way to go over the cost limit.

In the end, I was reimbursed $300 by the company, and my manager insisted on Venmo’ing the remaining $15 from her personal account, which she was not reimbursed for. I felt really uncomfortable taking her personal money when it was our company that caused the error, but she insisted. The expenses team also promised to update the website to make it more accurate. How should this have been handled?

The company should have covered the full $315 because it had been approved by your management in accordance with their written policies. They can update the policy, sure, but your manager shouldn’t lose her own money because a written policy was inaccurate. (And really, $15? That’s a de minimis amount for your company to eat in the interests of staff morale.)

Don’t feel weird about taking your manager’s $15, though; I’m sure she would have felt far worse if you were the one out the money because of what happened and she probably felt partially responsible. I would have wanted to cover it myself too.

5. Starburst curation

My office has a communal candy dish that includes the little two-packs of Starbursts. A coworker has taken to opening these packets, eating only the Starburst flavors they like (pink and orange), and leaving the remaining Starburst squares (red and yellow) behind for others. On the one hand, this strikes me as absolutely unhinged behavior. On the other hand, this unhinged behavior means I also have a whole slew of red Starbursts (my favorite) at my disposal, without even having to gamble for them. Am I obligated to say anything about this behavior, for the greater good? Or, with two Starburst-happy employees in balance, am I in the clear to continue letting crime pay?

I’m not sure there’s anything unhinged happening here! If your coworker is opening all the packages and removing the pink and orange Starbursts so there are none for anyone else, then yes, this is boorish behavior. But if they’re just taking a reasonable amount of candy and putting back the individually wrapped ones they don’t like so someone else can have them, this is what top minds consider a classic win/win.

Either way, you are under no obligation to speak up and may continue enjoying the red cast-offs without qualms.

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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I’m going to consolidate all the Starburst comments here so they don’t take over the thread. Please leave any additional Starburst thoughts as a reply here (since this can easily be closed by anyone who’s not enthralled by the topic).

    1. Dahlia*

      Normally I’m a “just take your leftovers, no one wants your half-touched doughnut” type person, but this seems reasonable! They’re individually wrapped and they would just be thrown away. It’s no different from just taking the colours they like if there was a big bag of them instead of two packs.

      All good!

      1. Ally McBeal*

        I agree. In my office of around 30 people, only I and 1-2 other people like the lemon-flavored Starburst, so I’m perfectly happy to scoop those out of the bottom of the candy dish after they’re discarded by my coworkers.

        1. Kimmy Schmidt*

          I LOVE being one of the few whose favorite is the yellow Starburst! Everyone is always happy to trade with me. This candy dish situation sounds ideal!

        2. Justme, The OG*

          Another yellow Starburst lover here. I get all the castoffs when my kid eats nothing but pink ones.

        3. 1-800-BrownCow*

          Not a fan of Starbursts, but lemon-flavored candy is my favorite. So I’m happy to score all the lemon-flavored candy most people leave behind. I very much miss lemon Jolly Ranchers. I wish they’d bring those back. They were my favorite of all lemon-flavored candy.

        4. Elizabeth West*

          The key here is letting others have some too, if they want. I don’t see anything in the letter that says the coworker is taking ALL the pink and orange ones (I’d be sad bc I like the orange ones best) so I’m sure it’s fine. :)

      2. Lady Danbury*

        People at my company love a half touched doughnut/muffin/whatever, lol. I’m one of the halfies offenders, but only in a halfie positive environment. Most of the people in my department are pretty health conscious. Combine that with one coworker who loves to bake and is always bringing in cupcakes, muffins, bread, etc. and you get multiple people who will cut items in half and/or take the leftover half.

          1. Frank Doyle*

            The coworker who is spending their time and money making delicious treats for the people at work should go out and purchase new baking pans and figure out how to adjust recipes, even though no one has complained and people are taking the leftover halves and it’s not a problem?

            3. Acl*

              No self-respecting baker has only one size of muffin tin and papers!

              Also, it’s possible to put less batter into a regular sized muffin tin to make smaller portions. IMO, it’s not a big deal. And yes, I am an office baker.

          2. MigraineMonth*

            Lol, no.

            It also wouldn’t solve the problem in the Midwest offices I’ve worked, where the issue isn’t that people want a smaller muffin but that they don’t want to take the *last* muffin (or cookie, doughnut, etc). What if someone else really wants a muffin later, and due to their selfishness that person is deprived? So 11 muffins gone instantly, the last lingers for hours until someone takes half. Sometimes this will repeat, until there’s only a lonely quarter muffin on the plate at the end of the day.

            I’m not from here, so I usually perform the coup-de-grace at this point and eat the final quarter. I get a nice treat, and I spare others their Midwest guilt.

            1. Fanny Price*

              My office (in the Pacific NW) is the same. I have taken to referring to the phenomenon as “Zeno’s doughnut” and have eaten an eighth of a doughnut on more than one occasion os a public service.

              1. MigraineMonth*

                At one some point they’re going to split the atom just to avoid taking an entire atom’s worth of donut.

          3. Orv*

            I sort of did that; I noticed when I brought in donuts everyone cut them in half, so I started bringing in donut holes, instead.

      4. CommanderBanana*

        As someone who loves the red Starbursts and is also convinced there’s a red Starburst conspiracy because it seems like every bag I buy has less reds than any other flavor, I am in favor of this coworker.

        2. Rain, Disappointing Australian (formerly Lucien Nova)*

          I too enjoy red Starburst.

          I was very pleased to discover Target carries bags of the tiny Chiclet-looking ones in nothing but the various flavours of red.

      5. Slow Gin Lizz*

        This question reminded me of my old office. If there were Starburst in the candy dish in the mtg room, one of my coworkers would unwrap them and organize them into piles based on flavor. This was important, because sometimes we’d have two different kinds of Starburst where the yellow flavors were different, and the yellow colors on the wrapper, while a tiny bit different in hue, looked way too similar to easily tell apart. This particular coworker loved one of the yellows and hated the other, so she needed to make sure she was eating the correct yellow.

        That was a fun office. My job there was mind-numbingly boring, but I loved my coworkers and I still miss them two jobs later.

        1. Margaret Cavendish*

          As someone who loves lemon and hates banana, I am 100% behind your former co-worker on this. Especially if the yellow flavour she loved was banana, we would definitely be besties!

        2. 1-800-BrownCow*

          I used to work with a guy who’d do that with Plain M&Ms. He claimed each color tasted different, but even within the same color, there were flavor differences. So he’d open a bag of M&Ms and separate by color, then made smaller piles within each color category based on whatever he saw that determined the difference in taste for the color. It was….ummmm…very intersting.

          1. CommanderBanana*

            I do this with Skittles and eat them by least favorite to most favorite. Purple is best, followed by red.

            1. Midwest Manager too!*

              Interesting fact: all Skittles are exactly the same flavor. You get the different fruit “flavors” through the shell/colored coating, where they add scent (which is just tasting at range).

          2. Hannah Lee*

            When I was a tween-teen, with some friends of mine we’d do a craft project making Christmas wreaths by tying little bags of M & M’s on a coat hanger that had been bent into wreath shape.

            We realized after the first year that it was sort of a silly thing, because as soon as a handful of the little bags were taken off by people eating the M & M’s (which was part of the point of them) the wreaths looked like the saddest decorations ever.

            But we kept it going for a few years, mostly as an excuse to open many large bags of M & Ms to sort through for the red and green ones for the wreaths and then sort the rest by color according to our personal favorites: I was big on a combo of green and blue, would sometimes throw some yellow in. I was convinced those were the colors that tasted the best… plus the mix was so pretty.

            Mars caught on to people wanting to do that and started selling single color bags.

          3. Gumby*

            But… the only correct way to eat m&ms is to separate them by color, make a bar chart, eat down the highest bar until it matches the second highest, eat both of those down until they met the third, etc. At the end you have one of each color left then you either eat smallest to largest or least favorite color to favorite color. (My favorite are the peanut butter ones and they are not as uniformly-sized as the plain.)

            I do this automatically with m&ms and feel off when I try to just eat them with the colors mixed up all willy nilly. I don’t do it with other colored candies – Skittles or Sixlets or whatever.

          4. Reluctant Mezzo*

            I once used M&Ms to illustrate some accounting concepts to a friend I was in the same class with.

          5. Acl*

            Jelly beans. I hate the black ones, but noticed last Easter that the packages no longer contained black, those were sold separately in licorice only bags. A win win.

            But I save my favorite jelly bean flavors for last. And those are, generally speaking and in no particular order – pink, red, purple, white.

        3. Hyena*

          Oh, I understand this completely though. One of the yellows is lemon, and one of them is pineapple! It’s a very different flavor experience!

      6. I Have RBF*

        This is where I fall.

        Ordinarily I’m against leaving partial items, but these are individually wrapped.

        Plus, when you buy a big bag of Starburst, they are often just in the individually wrapped squares, not the two packs. (You can buy a big bag of two packs or a big bag of individual squares.)

    2. RCB*

      As a red Starburst lover I’d be THRILLED that someone was leaving the reds behind for me, and that I didn’t have to open the packs to find them. I’ll also confuse to being the one who did this in the office, but I also paid for the candy so I figured I could rightfully pick out my favorite colors and leave the rest behind (which happened to be the favorite colors of others, so it’s a win for everyone).

              1. Slow Gin Lizz*

                Whoa. I’ve never thought of that before. I always eat them one at a time, but now I’m going to try mixing and matching.

              5. Sweet Fancy Pancakes*

                When I was a kid, I would bite 4 different flavors into quarters, then reassemble them as 4-flavored frankencandies. I did the same with skittles.

            3. KOALA*

              Pink and Yellow are my favorites and I do this and give my co-workers the orange and red. Red is actually my least favorite.

        2. Leigh*

          Red and yellow are the best flavours by far. Sounds lucky to me. It’s no worse than them reaching into a bowl of mixed flavours and only taking the (individually wrapped) ones they like.

        3. Eastendbird*

          My brother and I used to fight over the red starbursts. I think, at that time, in the UK, they were called Opal Fruits!

          1. Media Monkey*

            my husband often says that something is “as popular as a yellow opal fruit”. no one likes the yellows

          2. Sunflower*

            I read about Opal Fruits from Prince Harry’s book and thought the name sounds like a delicious candy, only to find out they were Starbursts, LOL.

        4. Antilles*

          Given that Starburst straight up sells packages of “all reds/pinks”, there are apparently a LOT of customers who agree with you.

          1. MsM*

            Yeah, I think it’s a jerk move they’re taking all the pinks, but at least they’re not just leaving the citrus ones.

        6. Good Enough For Government Work*

          I’m from the UK and I’m here to tell you the best flavour is purple (when it’s blackcurrant; grape is nasty).

      2. Phony Genius*

        I remember when the Cherry flavor (red) was introduced. It replaced lime, which was too much like lemon. That said, my favorite is orange.

    3. nnn*

      #4: Are the remaining starbursts still individually wrapped? If yes, I don’t see a problem. If no, it’s gross.

      1. Czhorat*

        In the packs that they’re talking about there’s a wrapped two-pack of starbursts, each of which has the paper wrapping they usually come in.

    4. Resentful Oreos*

      LW5: I don’t think that what the Starburst Fusspot is doing rises nearly to the level of “unhinged.” Maybe if Fusspot licked all the red Starbursts before putting them back, yes. But just opening the packages and picking out only the flavors they want is just rude and juvenile, nothing worse. I don’t think this is a hill, or even a mound of dirt, worth dying on. Go ahead and eat all the leftover red Starbursts, and enjoy! (Also be glad you have coworkers who don’t swoop in to pick the good candy and leave only Circus Peanuts for everyone else!)

      1. Dahlia*

        I don’t even think it’s “rude and juvenile”. If taking 2 packets of starbursts to eat is acceptable, so is taking 2 packets of starbursts, opening them, and taking the flavours you like. Less wasteful, even, than throwing them out.

        2. I guess my entire company was the real work wife the whole time.*

          Right? I just can’t understand the perspective of anybody who is against this. But for real, why not just get a big bag of individual starbursts???

      2. Roland*

        How is this rude, juvenile, or fusspot behavior? They know there will be someone happy to eat the reds, OP is literally one of them. It’s so weird to insult this coworker while literally reaping the benefit in the exact way they intended.

      3. ThatOtherClare*

        Rude and juvenile? I was just thinking it was an example of going out one’s way to be mature and polite, by making the effort to leave behind a wrapped candy that someone else might enjoy.

        It just goes to show, no matter how simple, natural and self evident I think my beliefs are, there will always be a perfectly sensible person with valid reasons for thinking the exact opposite.

        (I admit I am assuming that Resentful Oreos is a sensible person – but knowing the AAM readership I think it’s a fairly safe bet).

      5. Shopgirl*

        These are basically two in a mystery pack. They can’t see what they are getting.

        The other option would be to throw away whichever they don’t eat. It’s not rude or juvenile to have flavor preferences. Clearly other people will eat those flavors so why not leave them?

      6. Nancy*

        It’s not rude to take the unwrapped candy you prefer.

        LW can easily solve it by getting a big bag of individual Starburst instead if it bothers her.

    5. Goddess*

      I threw an ink pad (old school) at a girl once for eating my starbusts. Sorry, not sorry, for having boundaries. People will do anything in an office if you let them.

      2. Brittany Dittany*

        It’s a communal candy jar though. Someone is taking a reasonable amount of communal candy. There is literally zero problem here.

        Also, please don’t throw things at people at work in anger. Or really in any other emotion beyond “hey, toss me that thing, would ya?” Throwing things in anger isn’t setting boundaries — it’s abusive.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          There is literally zero problem here.
          That’s why this will be the most commented on part.

        3. amoeba*

          To be fair, I read the comment as something that happened as a child, which… I mean, depending on the age, at least makes it much less unhinged than if she was a teacher at said school!

        1. London Calling*

          A colleague once threw a stapler at me ( it missed). Using ‘boundaries’ as an excuse for throwing things at people is odd, to say the least. Let alone for something as trivial as sweets.

            1. London Calling*

              IIRC he was temp staff and was shitcanned not long after. Mostly what I recall is people’s expressions after he hurled it – ‘did he just throw a STAPLER at her????’

        1. Bossy*

          I had the same reaction. Something just seems off here and I feel like LW…has their own POV.
          Even them telling the departed director not to work their last week of notice seemed suspect – how often do we hear that it’s not great to boot someone during their notice period) and then when we find out things don’t seem to have been wrapped up…

          1. Lexi Vipond*

            It’s not great to sack someone the moment they give their notice when they expected to be paid for another two weeks. I don’t think there’s any problem with paying them for the notice period but not expecting them to work.

      5. CommanderBanana*

        ….weird flex,* but ok.

        *Please do not throw things at people in any setting outside of playing actual sports, thank you and goodbye.

      6. Tio*

        That’s not setting a boundary, that’s assault. Over candy. This is actually way more unhinged than anything that happened in the actual candy letter.

      7. Juno Rules*

        Wow.

        Personally, my boundaries include not accepting jerks THROWING STUFF in the workplace. And I’d be making sure no one ever “let” you pull that crap again. Preferably by getting you fired.

      8. Lenora Rose*

        It was wrong of her to eat your Starbursts, assuming you mean your own candy and not a public dish you laid claim to.

        It was patently worse for you to attempt physical assault.

      9. carrot cake*

        “Threw an in pad”? You did no such thing, although I wonder why you’d make up something to brag about when it’s not even cool.

        Truly odd.

        1. Lexi Vipond*

          I mean, an ink pad is about three inches across and weighs about as much as a full box of matches, it’s not like they’re claiming to have picked up an elephant.

          It’s got sharper corners than you would want to throw even in a setting where throwing something like a ball of paper is just playing about, but I’m not sure why you find it inherently implausible.

        2. ThatOtherClare*

          You can’t imagine a fresh intern or a young person in a casual retail job impulsively yeeting a lightweight blob of plastic and ink in the vague direction of her annoying friend? Odd.

          Do you simply not remember your early teens, or were you one of the kids with such a strict upbringing that you weren’t able to relax enough to engage in any forms of light harmless mischief?

          This sounds like perfectly believable young person behaviour to me. They’re not telling the story to brag, they’re telling the story because nobody was hurt, and it was encoded in their minds as ‘a fun bit of mischief’ and they wanted to share the joy. I giggled :)

    6. Keyboard Cowboy*

      LW5, I’m frankly just stunned that anybody would eat the orange Starbursts on purpose. It takes all sorts, I suppose.

      1. HBJ*

        I have never understood the obsession over red and pink starburst. I will eat pink, but I personally think the citrus ones, orange and yellow, are best. I won’t eat any candy that’s fake cherry flavored. I find them so disgusting.

        1. Jessica*

          You are correct! But this is why diversity in the workforce is so important. If your whole team is made up of the right-minded people who know orange and yellow are the good flavors, you’ll have waste and starburst wars. But the freaks who like pink and red can also be competent and valuable workers, and if you have some of them in your office, everyone can enjoy the starburst synergy.

          1. Airy*

            Jack Sprat could eat no fat,
            His wife could eat no lean.
            And so between them both, you see,
            They licked the platter clean.
            (English nursery rhyme, Roud Folk Song Index number 19479)

            Someone who’ll eat what you don’t like and leave what you do is an acquaintance to be cultivated (see also: if a sandwich comes with a pickle).

            1. Be Gneiss*

              My husband prefers the drum half of the wings, and I prefer the flats, so we can always split an order of wings and both be happy!

          4. ThatOtherClare*

            Pink is my favourite, and I can’t stand red. Does that make me a right freak, or a left-minded person?

            3. RainbowArmy*

              pink is the only one I don’t like, although I’m neutral about Orange. Love the yellow and red.

              It takes all kinds

          1. Earlk*

            Lime are the best and so many people dislike them for no reason but it has historically done me well in trades.

              1. 1-800-BrownCow*

                My kids take after me and LOVE sour foods. We all eat lemons and limes like other people eat oranges. My husband thinks we’re all nuts (he HATES sour, won’t even take lemon in his water or iced tea).

                I wish there were more lime flavored candies. We all get excited when we find some.

            2. Phony Genius*

              Apparently, lime is a standard flavor in the UK. It was removed from the standard mix in the US around 1980 and replaced with cherry. It’s sometimes available in the specialty flavor assortments.

                2. Crencestre*

                  No, Yvette – as I’m sure you know, “limey” comes from the discovery (in the 18th century) that eating citrus fruit or drinking citrus juice prevents the terrible disease scurvy (once the bane of sailors out on long ocean voyages and unable to get a really balanced diet.) They weren’t using the term “vitamin C” back then, but they did realize that adding oranges, lemons, grapefruit and of course limes to their diet helped to keep them healthy. British sailors benefited from this knowledge and were called “limeys” as a result.

                3. bamcheeks*

                  No cherry! Blackcurrant, strawberry, orange, lemon and lime. Same colour/flavour profile for starburst, skittles, fruit pastilles, Fox’s glacier fruits etc.

            1. bamcheeks*

              Purple: blackcurrant
              Red: strawberry
              Orange: orange
              Yellow: lemon
              Green: lime

              This is the standard sweet-to-sour colour/flavour profile for sweets like starburst, Skittles, fruit pastilles, boiled sweets etc, so now I’m dying to know what your Skittles are like? Or do you not have them?

              1. Okay Potatoes*

                U.S. resident here, our Skittles flavors are:
                Purple: grape
                Red, orange, and yellow are the same as yours
                Green: used to be green apple (the worst flavor), but thank goodness they switched back to lime, the best flavor!

              2. Phony Genius*

                Our (US) Skittles are strawberry, grape, orange, lemon, and lime. Other flavors are available in specialty packs.

          5. Sharpie*

            Lemon and lime yes, also blackcurrant. You can have my orange, though, for some reason I never liked them.

        3. Dhaskoi*

          This is the correct take.

          Lemon: Excellent
          Strawberry: Decent
          Orange: Acceptable
          Cherry: MotherofallthingsunholywhatthehelldidIjustputinmymouthspititoutSPITITOUTNOW!

        4. CommanderBanana*

          It’s weird, it’s almost like tastes vary from person to person! I absolutely love fake cherry and grape flavors.

          I’m a hard no on banana-flavored candy, though.

          1. 1-800-BrownCow*

            Every once in a great while I come across a cherry-flavored candy that doesn’t taste like cherry cough syrup, but yeah, most cherry-flavored stuff is very off-putting and tastes like medicine.

        6. Hroethvitnir*

          You are objectively correct. /tongue in cheek

          I mostly only want green, but don’t mind orange. Red is… fine. But citrus all the way!

      2. Sleve*

        That’s how I feel about the red. They taste like medicine to me. I will take some liquorice allsorts, though, if you’re offering!

      3. Audrey Puffins*

        I’m just wondering what happened to green and purple, is it just in the country where LW is that they don’t exist or have they been universally wiped out? Green was always my number one

        1. Em*

          I think you’re referring to a different flavor of starbursts, like the “tropical” version. Red, orange, yellow, pink is the classic and original starburst offering. Very important stuff, I know lol

          1. Lexi Vipond*

            I haven’t had any for ages, but I’m sure there were green ones in the UK even back in the days when they were Opal Fruits.

          3. Sharpie*

            Bearing in mind I haven’t had them in a while but Opal Fruits – the original Starburst – had red, orange, yellow, green, pink and purple (blackcurrant – which is a popular flavour for stuff over here).

        2. Ellis Bell*

          Are you in the UK? Green is lemon/lime and purple is blackcurrant, though admittedly I haven’t had any since they were called Opal Fruits, so I may be way out of date.

      6. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        I’m with you. I hate anything orange-flavored that is not an actual orange or orange juice.

    7. Dark Macadamia*

      The most unhinged thing in #5 is that they’re putting the little trick or treat two-packs in a bowl instead of just getting the giant bag of loose individual ones to begin with, lol.

      And now I really want some starbursts, but just the pink and yellow ones :)

      3. Nocturna*

        I’m pretty sure they’re putting a bag of mixed candy into the bowl, which includes the two-packs of Starbursts but would also have other types of candy. (LW says the bowl “includes” Starbursts.)

      2. Poison I.V. drip*

        I used to buy a whole bag and throw the yellow out. Then one day I ate a yellow one for the hell of it and discovered a complexity and a subtlety I had previously overlooked. And was when I knew I was an adult.

      3. juliebulie*

        I love the yellows. And the reds. And the oranges. But the pinks are ptooey.

        I’m very excited, though, to hear that they have lime ones in the UK. I’m going to need to find a reason to go there (or find a candy importer).

    9. Azure Jane Lunatic*

      Those “just the pink and red” bags make me sad, because I love red the least and I find pink too sweet without yellow around. If there was someone around to take my unwanted starbursts away I would be delighted.

      1. FashionablyEvil*

        Yes! I always wish there was a way to get one’s preferred ratio of flavors. (I like pink but red is the woooooooorst.)

      2. Heather*

        I love the phrasing “I love them the least.” That’s definitely the lowest ranking for Starburst.

      3. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

        Yes, you are my person! Pink and yellow Starbursts are the best, and they need each other for balance.

    10. Catagorical*

      This passionate yet polite, earnest discussion on the merits of various starbursts flavors is just the balm for my news-weary heart. Thank you!

      1. Emmy Noether*

        I had to google what they are, since the discussion today seems to be set to center around them.

        If they are what I think they are (like Maoam), then I’m team red, but occasionally in the mood for a yellow or orange.

    11. Green For The Win*

      I’m confused, do you not have green Starbursts?? Green are by far the superior Starburst!

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        Green sweets generally are the best ones. Our corner shop has proper pick-n-mix and sometimes I will indulge myself with a “green only” bag. Truly there is no greater pleasure available for under £1.

        1. Learn ALL the things*

          It depends on wheather the green is supposed to be lime or apple. I hate apple flavored candy.

          1. Insert Clever Name Here*

            OMG, the years when Skittles (in the US) replaced the lime with apple were a dark time. I was so excited when I saw lime was back a year or two ago!

      2. bamcheeks*

        THANK YOU I was scrolling down looking or this comment.

        Handily, I’ve always preferred the citrus flavours. Most people got for the blackcurrant and strawberry, so there is much less competition for like and lemon.

        (Also they’re Opal Fruits.)

        3. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Blackcurrant Starbursts sound fabulous. I’m glad to know there’s a possibility out there for purple that isn’t grape.

          (Grapes = tasty. Artificial grape flavoring = nasty.)

      3. Nocturna*

        In the US, Starbursts are only available (at least in the standard packs) in red (cherry), yellow (lemon), orange (orange), and pink (strawberry). I suspect LW5 is US-based.

        1. Clementine*

          Well this is just sad for you guys. The Lemon/lime (green) and Blackcurrant (purple) are easily the best flavours of Starbursts.

        2. MsM*

          Are green ones lime or apple? Because if they are lime, I have to get hold of some non-US Starbursts.

    12. Beth**

      Starburst colours are different here in the UK, but I once had a boss who liked some of them but not others. He would buy packs near daily and leave the unloved colours for his team. I don’t like the purple ones either (=blackcurrant, which is a taste I have never developed) but I ate my share of the greens. #teamcitrusstarburst

      1. Varthema*

        As a US American who moved to Ireland, the near disappearance of cherry flavors and the ubiquitousness of blackcurrant is probably the worst bit of culture shock. ;) Good thing there are sour cherries in the cinema to comfort me!

        1. Varthema*

          I don’t even love grape flavor but I’ll take purple = grape over purple = blackcurrant any day!

        3. CommanderBanana*

          It’s funny the flavors you miss – I was deeply sad when I left Germany to lose paprika potato chips.

      2. Lady Danbury*

        I love blackcurrant! I grew up on a Caribbean island, which means that the culture has strong US and UK influences, as well as Caribbean (obvs). I was surprised to arrive at university in the US and discover that Ribena wasn’t a ubiquitous morning beverage and shocked when my friends didn’t enjoy it when I shared it with them (after bringing large bottles of Ribena concentrate in my suitcase).

        1. londonedit*

          Ribena isn’t half as nice now they’ve taken all the sugar out of everything :(

          Can still recommend a hot Ribena to fend off winter colds – whether or not you add a slug of sloe gin is up to you!

        2. Missa Brevis*

          I only discovered blackcurrant as a flavor in college, but I also love it! There’s a blackcurrant flavored tea that only shows up in my local grocery store about once every six months, so I always buy three boxes at a time.

      4. The Wizard Rincewind*

        I wrote a paper on blackcurrant and touched on its popularity in the UK vs US, and I really fell down a rabbit hole on the topic.

        The UK government encouraged blackcurrant cultivation during WWII in response to fruit import shortages and gave away blackcurrant syrup to households with children to combat vitamin deficiencies. Meanwhile, in the US, blackcurrant plants were discovered to be carriers of a fungus that could wipe out lumber tree species, so they were banned.

        The federal ban was lifted some years ago, but some states (and counties) still have bans on the books. I was amazed to learn that purple candy in the UK is more likely to be blackcurrant than grape. History is fascinating!

        1. bamcheeks*

          “Blackcurrants are illegal in the US” was a question on QI or some other surprising facts programme like that. It’s a great pub quiz one!

    13. The Prettiest Curse*

      Hmm, don’t think I’ve ever had a purple Starburst, but my current office doesn’t have them available. I’m old enough to remember an era when Starburst were called Opal Fruits in the UK. Somehow I found that brand name way more evocative. Same thing with Marathon instead of Snickers!

      4. MendraMarie*

        You can sometimes find “retro” packaging labelled Opal Fruits! And I have heard that there will be a similarly retro Marathon run shortly.

        1. The Prettiest Curse*

          I heard about the retro Marathon return, but not the one for Opal Fruits. I feel like Opal Fruits got way less juicy when they re-branded, though that’s probably just the nostalgia talking.

      5. Slow Gin Lizz*

        TIFO that there are different flavors of Starburst in different countries and that they are called Opal Fruits in some of those countries. I’ll have to check them out next time I’m somewhere that sells UK candy!

        1. londonedit*

          They’re not called Opal Fruits here anymore – they always used to be, but then at some point (1990s-ish?) they were changed to Starburst.

          British people of a certain age continue to have Feelings about this, same as the change from Marathon to Snickers.

          1. Beth**

            I moved to the UK in 1997. Marathons were already Snickers (but people talked about it a lot). Opal Fruits were still Opal Fruits.

    14. Withheld*

      NZ – Purple = grape, red = strawberry, orange = orange , yellow = banana, green = lime.

      They are all edible, but green and orange are the best (citrus).

      We also have communal sweets and if someone removed ALL of their favorites flavours so no-one else could have them… they would be confronted by Wednesday of this week.

      1. Hroethvitnir*

        Another NZer and yes! Green and orange all the way. Glad we don’t have cherry as default red flavour.

        The explanation above that the packaging is probably an opaque two pack they’re taking the unfavoured ones out if makes it way less obnoxious for sure, as I too imagined someone emptying out the bag and picking their favourites (like I used to do with green at D&D as no one else was a fan).

    15. DrSalty*

      We had a communal jar of those starburst two packs at my old job. I miss it! The surprise of which flavors you’re going to get is such a fun little treat.

    16. Katrina*

      LW5, if you have other co-workers who are seeking out pink Starburst and finding there are none left for them, the office could always get one of the all-pink packs for every two mixed flavors pack.

    17. Fluffy Fish*

      The only thing unhinged about #5 is that their favorite flavor isn’t red. That’s simply diabolical.

    18. Juicebox Hero*

      Somehow, I knew the Starbursts would be getting the most chatter in the comments. The lemon Starbursts are my favorite, so you can send me the overflow. I also love the green Jolly Ranchers, Mr Goodbars (always left over from the Hershey Miniatures assortment), and anything coconut.

    19. Lab Boss*

      Since this is Starburst comment day:

      At your next autumn bonfire, stick a Starburst on your favorite marshmallow fork and roast it over the flames. It will puff up a little as the inside gets soft and gooey and expands, and the outside caramelizes slightly and gets just the barest hint of crunch.

      You’re welcome.

      2. Laura*

        My kids are both starburst fiends and love toasting marshmallows, we are definitely going to try this out.

    20. Anna*

      Re: Starbursts, I don’t find it at all weird to take one of a multipack when they’re both individually wrapped.

      But since it bugs LW (and I get that – sometimes small stuff just bugs us), it would make more sense to buy bags of individually wrapped Starbursts instead.

      I just did a quick price check on Amazon and it seems like you get 1/3 more for the same price if you buy the individually wrapped ones.

      Seems like an easy solution.

    21. Baela Targaryen*

      There’s a reason why Pink is Popular — enjoy your lesser flavors, dorks!

      *glitter emoji, Barbie emoji*

    22. ZSD*

      #5 – When I read the headline, I thought this was going to be about my office!

      Yesterday, I brought in a bag of Starburst and mixed them into the communal candy dish (which also had mini-chocolate bars and the like in it). When I went to get a Starburst at 2 PM, every single lemon Starburst was gone. Someone must have picked out all the yellows to hoard in their office.

      Ftr, my personal ranking of Starburst is yellow, orange, pink, red.

    23. Brain the Brian*

      LW5: I have kept a candy dish at my desk for nearly my entire professional life. Your coworker’s behavior is quite common and honestly very normal. Don’t give it a moment’s more thought!

    25. Lisa*

      Thank you for answering the Starburst question! I needed something a little silly and low-stakes today. :-)

    26. 1-800-BrownCow*

      I wish my biggest concern at work was someone opening the 2-pack of Starbursts and leaving the individually wrapped flavor they didn’t like behind….

      Not sure why that’s an issue and definitely not sure why this is considered unhinged. What am I missing?

    27. Former Themed Employee*

      “For when all starbursts exist in balance, it is then that we are all connected in the great circle of life” – Festival of the Lion King show at Disney’s Animal Kindgom, paraphrased

    29. HugsAreNotTolerated*

      As the owner of the office candy jar & snack basket part of my literal job duties include purchasing (with company money!) and refilling these items. Since if people don’t like a type of candy or food they sit there until someone is desperate enough to grab them (Usually the Funyons from the chips multi-pack) I’ve tried to curate a candy bowl that is popular. For my office, Jolly Ranchers are a no, but Starbursts are a definite yes. And they must be Red or Pink, so I’ve taken to buying the Reds & Pinks only bags. Most people don’t realize that there are two different pinks in that bag (strawberry & watermelon) and this has been an unhappy surprise to a few.
      Popular snacks: Peanut butter crackers, Nutrigrain granola bars, Chocolate Teddy Grahams, Goldfish, Doritos
      Unpopular snacks: Animal crackers, Hot cheetos, pretzels, off brand nutrigrain granola bars

    31. Sir Nose d'Voidoffunk*

      I just want to mention how much “this is what top minds consider a classic win/win” cracked me up.

    32. Head Sheep Counter*

      If they weren’t standing there opening packages and curating then it’s fine. If they are standing for moments on end opening, creating trash and curating… that seems… dodgy and mean. Like taking all of something from a candy dish is rude… curating it so only what you don’t like is left… is also rude.

      I was trying to think if I had a number in mind for the amount of packages opened and curated before it got rude… and I think that’s hard to determine. Some folk are very efficient package openers… some are not.

  2. Robert Kreisle*

    You control the company email. You can block emails from her address. There are ways to get around this but she might not figure out her emails are not being delivered.

    1. Bilateralrope*

      It might be better to redirect those emails, or just a copy of them. That way you have a record of them if her behaviour escalates enough to get lawyers involved.

      Personally I’d be monitoring any emails sent to or from her address without blocking them. If staff ignore the instruction to stop talking about work with someone who no longer works there, I’d want to know. Block them and staff will seek workarounds.

      Staff should already know that work emails are not private.

      1. Seashell*

        She could easily be texting them, calling them, or emailing them at their personal email. It’s unlikely that work email is their only form of contact.

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          Right, but shutting down one vector for contact is better than not shutting down that vector even if she has other means for contacting them.

        2. Observer*

          We *know* that she is either not using the company email system, or they are too incompetent to manage it.

          Because they are complaining that people won’t show them the evidence. Which should only be a problem if she’s contacting them on private channels such as messaging apps or personal email.

    2. Angora540*

      Did the OP state which method of contact she was using? I automatically assumed calling. But it could be both. Her email address could be blocked as SPAM, but she can change her email address.

  3. MK*

    #1, I don’t understand why a former employee wanting to know what is happening in her former company is causing the rest of the staff to mistrust management. Add to that the fact that she had only been there for 8 months, so not a long-time trusted colleague, and I have to wonder if the owners are using her as a scapegoat for their problems. She sounds toxic, but in anynwell-run company she shouldn’t be able to cause problems.

    1. Myrin*

      I didn’t quite follow that, either, but since OP says Lark presented herself as an advocat and a champion for the oppressed masses, I assume she doesn’t just ask how a project is going but rather says something like “You’re still only at the ‘painting the teapots’ stage? Like I’ve been saying, they’ve been burdening you with way too many teapots, of course you can’t get the whole batch done faster than that. In my new company, we’d only have to work on half that amount in the same time; clearly OP doesn’t know what she’s talking about and expecting of you” or somesuch.

      It’s still bizarre that apparently none of the workers are finding this inappropriate or even just plain weird (if that is indeed what’s happening and OP isn’t just misjudging that).

      1. Em*

        My manager was recently laid off. We are a year+ into a pathetic agile transformation that’s running the team productivity into the ground, and devs are quitting left and right, we have HUGE problems with under-performing product owners. I’m in a group chat where my manager is still getting updates, people are still asking his opinion, hoping he will somehow return in a consulting role, etc. In my experience, it’s a not a good sign when current employees are still engaging about work with a former leader to this degree… they probably aren’t getting support internally OR they have so many complaints they can’t help but take the opportunity to moan.

        1. Agent Diane*

          I noticed that the owners became aware Lark was still meddling when another employee quit. That rang a faint alarm bell of “all is not well”.

          Obviously that doesn’t excuse Lark’s behaviour but it does suggest the owners need to explore what problems their employees have that aren’t being addressed.

          1. ferrina*

            I’m so confused about what the owners are actually doing about this. If Lark was engaging in bad behavior the entire time she was there, how did no one catch on to it? Where was Lark’s manager? And why didn’t LW say anything about Lark’s manager and what they are doing to clean up the mess that their employee left? If LW is Lark’s manager, that makes it even worse.

            1. Falling Diphthong*

              I feel like the true story of what’s going on here is buried in your list of questions.

              Very much in the genre molehill-on-a-mountain.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          Yes, it seems like the other person quitting alerted them to some festering problems–but they are hoping to frame all of those as “So apparently Lark was just awful, but she’s gone, so now it’s fixed.”

          I wonder if the employees aren’t being checked in with by anyone else in management, and the manager who quit still calling to touch base is a sort of bizarre icing on that cake.

        3. Turquoisecow*

          It sounds like Lark was a person who listened to people’s complaints and commiserated with them – portraying herself as someone who would help with these issues even if she didn’t. It would definitely make sense that people would continue to go to her with complaints if they got used to using her as a sounding board in that way, even if she definitely can’t do anything now.

        4. Observer*

          In my experience, it’s a not a good sign when current employees are still engaging about work with a former leader to this degree… they probably aren’t getting support internally OR they have so many complaints they can’t help but take the opportunity to moan.

          Exactly! LW, you’re focusing on the wrong problem. Lark is not the issue here, your management is.

    3. Charley*

      I had this same question. Know that you know Lark was hearing about issues and not passing them on to you, is there anything you can do to get the issues out in the open and actually address them this time? Just because Lark is acting inappropriately doesn’t mean that the concerns employees shared with her aren’t worthy of attention now.

      1. Learn ALL the things*

        This is a really good point. Staff were going to Lark with concerns that nobody ever addressed, so those concerns are probably still floating out there unresolved. I think one step OP needs to take is one on one meetings with staff. The staff need to see that the owners and other managers are taking their concerns seriously and working to address them. If they feel they’re being adequately listened to by their management structure, it takes away Lark’s opening to get into their heads.

        1. MsM*

          Yeah, OP says they only became aware Lark was sorting out entry-level tasks after she left…well, who was sorting them out before? Because clearly the employees appreciated the guidance.

          1. fhqwhgads*

            I read that as: after she left, they discovered that one thing she’d been doing while there was getting into the entry-level tasks – wrongly – instead of her own actual work.
            So the employees may have appreciated her taking things off their plate, but in the end it was a net bad outcome.

          2. Irish Teacher.*

            Do we know they appreciated the guidance? It may be that they thought they had to do as she said and the LW found out after she left because they were like “so who tells us what to do about X now?” and somebody said, “but that was never Lark’s job. I thought ye sorted that out among yourselves” and they said, “we used to but once Lark started, she said, ‘no, you need to start doing X instead of Y’ and I assumed it was part of her role to assign us those tasks.”

        2. mlem*

          If the staff don’t trust the owners, though, how open are they really likely to be in 1:1 sessions? Maybe they’ll be open and honest, but I suspect the lack of trust and power imbalance will lead to a bunch of “no, everything’s totally fine” responses and increased complaints/quittings.

          1. KateM*

            Seems that even the senior management doesn’t trust owners because they never told to owners what Lark told them.

    4. Antilles*

      Something just doesn’t add up here.
      Do people keep in touch with former colleagues? Of course. In the course of those conversations, might there be some short, brief vague discussions of projects you worked on together, in the same casual way you might ask about a shared colleague? Sure.
      But if you think those conversations are somehow leading them to “mistrust senior leadership and not be honest”, that seems incredibly odd to me when Lark was only there for 8 months.

      1. MassMatt*

        I want to be kind and also give the LW the benefit of the doubt but IMO this letter sounds like one of the many “this workplace stinks and the owners are never around” letters we see, except written from the owner’s perspective. The owners seem very checked out on what is happening on a day-to-day basis, only hearing about issues second or third hand, or after the fact when someone quits.

        The perceived lack of trust is troubling, also—this former director sounds like a micromanager (few people’s favorite boss) and was only there eight months, yet seems to still have a greater rapport with the staff than the owners do.

        I would focus less on why the ex-employee is still communicating with employees and instead look deeper into how someone who was such a bad fit got hired, and how the owners can improve their management. It’s their business, the buck quite literally stops with them.

        1. ferrina*

          I’m getting that vibe too.

          LW doesn’t say anything about what they did to investigate or remediate the supposedly toxic culture that Lark left behind. Which makes me think that they didn’t actually do anything. If I found out that a department was this heavily impacted by an employee that was there less than a year, I’d be reaming out Lark’s manager (because how did Lark get away with what LW claims they did?), organizing a listening tour, making high-visibility changes and behind closed doors creating management check-in processes to make sure that this never happened again.

          So I think LW didn’t actually do anything, which makes me think that they are removed from day-to-day operations. And they don’t mention anyone else whose role would be to manage this- they just seem to all blame Lark. Not impressive.

          1. KateM*

            I’m not absolutely sure how hierarchies work, but aren’t directors the highest level employees in a business? That would mean the owners have to ream out themselves. :D

            1. Observer*

              That would mean the owners have to ream out themselves.

              Yup. There is clearly a problem at the very top of the company. And the way the LW is writing, it’s pretty clear that it’s with them, at least.

            2. Insert Clever Name Here*

              It depends completely on how the business is set up. At my Fortune 100 company, leadership is Supervisor -> Manager -> Director and then Vice President -> Senior Vice President -> Executive Vice President -> President within each of the operating segments with our President & CEO over the top of everything. I feel like it’s unlikely OP’s is a massive company, but job titles are soooooo varied that it’s no telling whether “director” means something more junior or more senior (see the conversation earlier this week about why terms like “grandboss” are helpful when not everyone is operating with the same hierarchical terminology).

            3. RagingADHD*

              No – if you mean the Board of Directors, they are usually not employees at all, but independent of Management in order to provide effective oversight.

              Structures differ, but the director level is usually above manager and below vice president.

    5. ThatOtherClare*

      The good thing about Alison’s advice is that it doesn’t matter whether the company is brilliant, terrible or anywhere in between. No matter what, it’s still excellent advice that will go a long way towards helping solve the problem. So we don’t really need to jump in and play the ‘naughty or nice’ guessing game, and possibly insult the potentially perfectly normal owners. We can simply encourage them to be their best selves and let them take it from there.

    6. Yvette*

      It sounds as though maybe she is just doing more than expressing interest. She might be making comments like “have those idiots gotten their act together yet” or “is so and so still dragging their feet and making the wrong choices”?

    7. M*

      It could be, but it could also be exactly what the letter writer describes.

      There’s plenty of things that are irritating even in a completely reasonable and functional workplace – processes that are overcomplicated because of regulatory requirements, difficult clients, and so on. A charismatic and engaged employee who feels both senior in role and “one of us” in behaviour can whip up a lot of distrust and anger in a short space of time if you’re unlucky – and if they only stick around for a short time, it can be *worse*, because other employees don’t have the time to see through the promises to what’s actually going on.

      Sure, engaged senior leadership should be picking up on the mood change that comes with that – and shouldn’t be sitting on the knowledge that a relatively senior employee is that disgruntled – but it *does* happen, and can sometimes be difficult to track down the root cause of until after they move on.

      1. carrot cake*

        Yes, and management can openly, frequently, and sincerely encourage feedback ’til they’re blue in the face (my boss is really good at that), and some employees just won’t step up, even when there is no context of the possibility of retaliation etc. That usually means problems aren’t as bad as they’re made out to be. Cue the uproar on that.

        Meanwhile, Lark is no Norma Rae. She is a dime-a-dozen sh*t-stirrer, and I imagine she does so at OldJob because NewJob sees right through it.

    8. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I’m thinking that she is spreading lies about management. And if she lied to the employees when she was the director and saying she was doing things for them but didn’t I can see how an employee would be leary of the management because they don’t know who to believe. For all they know Lark did go to bat for them on something and then left and now nothing is happening

    9. LL*

      Yeah, that doesn’t make sense, but I’m assuming that this person did something during the 8 months she was there that caused the staff to lose trust in management. I assume she was lying about management or the business or something. I’m not sure why people trusted her, but I’m assuming there were some other issues going on with either management, the owners, or the company culture that led people to believe what she was saying.
      Or maybe she’s just a really good liar, who knows.

    10. Just Thinkin' Here*

      Lark was filling a gap someplace. Sounds like the average employee is not feeling heard and/or senior management is non-responsive. Lark may have wanted to feed some of those suggestions to senior manage and be a change agent – would OP have listened? Is OP not open to feedback? Having two managers leave in a relatively short amount of time shows there are some issues in the management chain.

    11. Irish Teacher.*

      I was wondering if perhaps the employees were unsure whether or not she was supposed to be contacting them. Especially if they were entry level employees or new to the company, I could well imagine them getting a call asking “what is happening with the X account?” and wondering, “wait, is Lark still employed by the company in some capacity?” “Is she contracting for us now?” “Did the LW ask her to contact us about this?”

      Which could undermine the intermediate managers if the employees aren’t quite sure if Lark still has some level of authority.

  4. Nodramalama*

    LW2 I agree with Alison’s advice. Marlie should be professional and polite. Raising any of this stuff has a high likelihood of looking petty considering you’re kind of just describing shitty friend behaviour. And she certainly wouldn’t want to get into a situation where it gets back to Amanda and ends up religitiating the friendship which I suspect will look good for no one.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      For me a lot comes down to the extent of the lies. Some lies are bad enough– and some liars are consistent enough — that I’d want my manager to know I don’t trust her. If nothing else they can talk to the hiring manager about not skipping reference checks.

      Management may also want to know if there’s a problematic relationship because it restricts possible future re-orgs and promotions.

    2. Mad Scientist*

      I didn’t get the impression that Marlie was considering bringing this up with her supervisor or anything like that, but maybe I misread.

    3. Learn ALL the things*

      I agree with this, but I think it might be a good idea for Marlie to practice in advance what she’d say to HR if it ever comes to that it probably won’t, but if Amanda does get hired and she starts demanding a level of friendship Marlie doesn’t want and that causes workplace tensions, HR might end up involved anyway. It might make Marlie feel safer and more comfortable if she has a speech in her back pocket ready to go. Something like “Amanda and I were friends in college and it didn’t end well. I regret the way things turned out, and I’ve been committed to treating her with professional politeness since she started her position here.”

      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Or Amanda may cause workplace drama. She sounds like a drama llama and if Marlie isn’t giving her what she wants, she may make a big deal out of it. So Marlie needs to practice grey rock and being prepared with a response.

        Amanda is going to totally try to rekindle the friendship if she thinks it can help her.

        1. Stressed on Behalf*

          Hi, LW#2 here! Amanda has also been going around to mutual friends asking about Marlie. Amanda will fully try to rekindle the friendship since they’d be in the same office, so Marlie is at a loss for how to keep distance without Amanda causing drama. I’ll make sure she reads these comments.

          1. Sam I Am*

            Marlie has the advantage of being a known quantity at the company, whereas Amanda will be a newcomer. Marlie should focus on being scrupulously polite and professional, not only to Amanda herself, but in everything regarding Amanda. No giving the backstory to coworkers or anything like that. It’s going to come across as petty immature drama to people outside the situation, and it can only hurt Marlie to get pulled into a new back-and-forth with Amanda. Maintaining a reputation as a collegial professional is Marlie’s best defense if Amanda does try to stir up drama.

            2. LookAtMeI'mTheManagerNow*

              Yep. Marlie should keep sparkling and either Amanda will be a “different person at work” like we hear about so often, or she’ll dig her own grave.

  5. Dhaskoi*

    LW3: If they’ll do it to someone else, they’ll do it to you. And I’m pretty sure the information they gave you about the previous person in that role is meant to be confidential.

    LW5: I am deeply, deeply amused, that every single person commenting on this uses the Starburst colours as their flavour descriptions.

    1. Jessica*

      Great point. Lemon, orange, cherry, and… what is pink even supposed to be? Maybe it’s watermelon?

      2. HugsAreNotTolerated*

        There’s actually two pinks! One is slighter darker and it’s watermelon, the brighter pink is Strawberry.

    2. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

      In my late 30’s, I was standing behind a little girl (8-ish) and her father, while at the local whippy dip. The little girl ordered a Slush Puppy and the cashier asked what flavor. The little girl answered, with the appropriate amount of snark and side eye, “Red.” I have never felt more seen in my soul or proud of someone else’s child in that moment before or since.

      1. Learn ALL the things*

        For real, when it comes to candy and slushies, the do not taste like cherries. They taste Red.

  6. r..*

    LW4,

    First, your companies handling of the situation is inane. 15 bucks is in no way worth the impacts on employee morale, changing policy without communicating the change is a no-no, and an even bigger no-no for anything related to money. Additionally, your company spent many times more than 15 bucks on this whole bruhaha.

    That being said, take the 15 bucks your manager offered and don’t feel weird about it. Were I your manager I would in no way accept you having to eat those 15 bucks, even if I had to cover them myself.

    Additionally, you don’t know what happens behind the scenes.

    Were I your manager I’d be … slightly annoyed about how this whole thing went down, not because of 15 bucks but because of process issues that frankly need fixing, so that’d go onto my todo list.

    There’s also the equipment angle: Supposedly the item of that brand and specification was bought because it best fits the companies need for that equipment; if spending policies in combination with inflation no longer allows for that item to be purchased that is a discussion that needs to be had, because at the end of the day the company will need to either change what “best fit for the companies needs” means for this equipment, or adjust the cost limit for inflation. This smells of penny-wise, pound-foolish; so that’d also be a thing that goes onto my list.

    Your manager may or may not share this, but if they do, and if they act, that’s something that’ll likely happen behind the scenes. Your manager also is probably in position to recoup expenses like this later on through a different way, without your knowledge.

    1. Antilles*

      Additionally, your company spent many times more than 15 bucks on this whole bruhaha.
      Yeah. If you consider the time spent by OP getting rejected, the manager fighting accounting over it, then the manager’s manager fighting accounting over it, the time-value of management time wasted on this is wildly more than $15.
      That said, I’d really love to know what the ‘normal’ cost for this item is. If it’s an item that normally costs way less than the $300 limit, then that might explain why accounting is being so nit-picky and firm about the hard-cap. They should still pay you the full price since it was approved by your manager and grand-manager, but if there’s an element of “…and who the hell spends $315 on a step-stool? you know you can get these for like $30 from Home Depot, right?”, that might be playing into their response.

      1. MassMatt*

        Not to mention the finance team is contradicting written policies, WTH. Why have policies if the team is just going to ignore them in favor of whatever arbitrary decision they want?

        Also, points for use of “brouhaha”!

        1. Expelliarmus*

          My theory is that the policy had changed but the documentation wasn’t updated. Foolish, of course, because that’s the reference most people use for the policy!

      2. r..*

        It could be a step-stool; it could also be an electronic device, a specialist hand tool, or whatever.

        The worst offenders in those areas usually are items that have a consumer-grade related product that has some shortcommings rendering it undesirable if not useless for professional usage. Everyone and their parents will have an opinion about how much the item for professional usage should cost because they’re thinking about the consumer item, but because they’re not a professional in the relevant field will be completely unaware why they’re comparing apples to oranges, and ultimately making statements wildly beyond their ken and knowledge.

        On the other hand it really could just be a footstool.

        There’s really not enough information in the post to tell either way.

        1. LW4*

          Letter writer here: it is a piece of electronic equipment. The old one was sent to me when I first started working at the company, so I was attempting to keep up with the standard set by the company from the beginning.

      3. AFac*

        We run into the $315 step stool all the time. They fight us on the cost, but they won’t allow us to order from Home Depot or be reimbursed if we bought it at Home Depot. We can only order from select vendors….who only sell step stools for $315.

        1. Orv*

          Businesses that are funded by the government and have buy-American requirements, or preferences for minority- or woman-owned businesses, often run into that type of problem. Sometimes there are specification or legal issues, too; for example we have a minimum warranty length required on some electronic items and we’re not allowed to agree to any terms and conditions that reference a legal jurisdiction outside the US.

          1. Observer*

            There are always ways to work with that, though.

            True, you often do wind up essentially over-paying. But it’s always within the rules, and we can document that. The main thing in these situations is that we are either not over-paying by more than a certain percentage, or we are not over-paying based on the market for items with that particular set of specs.

            So I don’t buy a “step ladder”. I buy a “titanium step ladder, made in the US, from a vendor with an active union”.

      4. WellRed*

        But it’s the exact same equipment. It’s not OPs or her managers fault that it was $315. The price limits are probably outdated.

    2. Ama*

      Yeah if I had been the manager in this situation I would be pointing out to everyone I could that this is an indication that we need to revise our spending limits because they are out of line with current standard equipment costs.

      But, OP, I don’t think there’s anything else you can do here. This is your manager’s battle to find if she chooses.

    3. MigraineMonth*

      Agreed, and don’t feel weird over taking the money. It was money you were owed, and any decent manager would feel responsible for making sure you got it. (Also, principals aside, it is only $15, so it’s hardly breaking the bank for her.)

  7. Viette*

    LW2 – I think “toxic” is potentially giving Amanda too much power here. I guess the word “toxic” has gotten pretty watered-down in the usage of the times, but I don’t think this is some disaster waiting to happen.

    Don’t get me wrong, Amanda sounds awful, but she wasn’t life- or psyche-destroying so much as rude, petty, selfish, and mean. The list of her (self-centered, freeloading) crimes wraps up with “unfollowing Marlie on social media and leaving her texts on read” which is classic miserable bad friend stuff.

    She was a problem, but she was a problem Marlie could, and did, solve by stopping hanging out with her. The solution is just to stay not being friends with her anymore.

    1. Roland*

      I felt the same way. People can just kinda suck as a friend, I don’t think it means she’ll be a coworker from hell.

    3. Love me, love my cat*

      Amanda was conniving, mean and selfish. Someone who could not be trusted with finances or possible relationships. All qualities I’D want in a coworker. /s

      1. Tobias Funke*

        Yeah!!!! She should never work in this town again!!!! Or any other town!!!! Let’s haul her into the town square and point at her!!!!!!!

      2. bamcheeks*

        Let she who was never a dick in her early twenties cast the first stone.

        IMO, it’s not helpful to talk about these things as inherent and fixed qualities rather than attributes someone displayed at a particular time and place in a particular relationship. It’s totally fine if these things were friendship-ending for Marlie, and that’s a perfectly good lesson for Amanda to learn. But it’s also good for Marlie to learn how to be polite and professional with people she doesn’t want a friendship with,

        1. learnedthehardway*

          Agreeing – sounds like Amanda was immature and selfish. Perhaps she has grown, perhaps she has not, but what she was doing doesn’t rise to the level of justifying interfering in her career.

          I’m not sure exactly what issues the OP would raise – “she was a freeloader, judged my morals, and told lies about me on a trip, so I cut ties with her.”

          Simply saying “I didn’t like her and don’t trust her” without giving some context is not going to go very far, unless the OP has significant credibility in the company.

      3. a clockwork lemon*

        Hooking up with a guy your friend also likes is bad form, as is borrowing money on vacation and not paying it back, but it’s ridiculous to extrapolate that someone who was a bad friend in college is also going to be a bad coworker. Plenty of people are rockstars at work and have fallings-out with friends, sometimes even when those friends are also coworkers.

        1. metadata minion*

          “Hooking up with a guy your friend also likes is bad form”

          And that’s not even a universal restriction. I find it baffling that someone could have “dibs” on liking a person.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      I consider ‘forgetting’ a wallet to be stealing. Just because she’s doing it to people she knows doesn’t mean it’s any less stealing. If Amanda has learned better, then she can take that learning to a company where no one she’s stolen from works.

      1. I should really pick a name*

        Amanda’s friends could just choose not to pay for her.
        You don’t have a choice when it comes to stealing.

        1. Cordelia*

          Exactly. Amanda “forgets” her wallet and so her friends pay for her. Sounds like they’ve let it happen repeatedly without addressing it – they had other options but chose to do this. That’s not stealing.
          Bringing this kind of thing up at work will just make Marlie look immature and petty (“she always pretends to forget her wallet! She hooked up with a boy I was interested in! She leaves texts on read!”)
          All these behaviours make someone a crappy friend, but don’t necessarily relate to a work context.

        2. LL*

          Yeah, I was thinking about how to avoid this when traveling. I’m assuming some of this happened at restaurants. Idk when this happened or where they were, but they could have a) gotten separate checks or b) paid the server their share directly and leave Amanda on the hook for the rest.

          If they were at a museum or event or coffee shop or whatever where everyone paid separately then they just shouldn’t pay for Amanda. You don’t HAVE to cover your friend’s ticket or her coffee.

          And then once I’d realized this was a pattern, before we went anywhere, I’d say “hey, Amanda do you have your wallet?” and if she says yes, I’d tell her to show it to me and when she didn’t I’d say, okay, well, I’m not leaving until you show me your wallet and then if she still wouldn’t you say, cool, then you’re on you’re own then and gone and done my own thing.

          She sounds awful, but in most situations, you don’t actually have to pay for someone who’s pulling something like this.

          1. I should really pick a name*

            Thankfully, I’ve never travelled with people like that.

            If a travelling companion told me they forgot their wallet, I’d cover them because I’d be comfortable they were telling the truth and would pay me back.

            If it WAS a pattern, I might ask them to confirm they have their wallet, but I’d stop there. I just wouldn’t pay for them if it turned out they still didn’t have it. Asking them to show it to me sounds like too much trouble.

      2. Colette*

        It’s really not stealing. They could decline to pay, and she could deal with the consequences.

        I’ve done a lot of trips with friends and someone tracks what people spend and then we even things up at the end; it’s unlikely they were all paying 1/3 of a hotel room, for example.

      3. bamcheeks*

        That’s a perfectly reasonable position to take as a friend, but if an employee came and said, “You shouldn’t employ this person, she stole from me” and it turned out they meant, “she forgot her wallet so I paid for her dinner and she never paid me back”, we’d be having a conversation about appropriate professional boundaries. Someone can be a crappy friend and a perfectly reasonable colleague or employee.

  8. Put the Blame on Edamame*

    We have a Lark! They really wrapped their identity up with their work and had very determined ideas of where they should be professionally, and saw themselves as the “cool older sibling” of the team. To this day, a year after leaving, they still ask colleagues about projects and strategy. All we can do is, as Alison says, be good managers and figure people will make their own minds up about their degree of involvement.

  9. 653-CXK*

    LW#3: if someone tells you who they are and what they do, believe them.

    Run fast and run far. If they reject you, call it several bullets dodged and the door to bananapants slammed shut.

    1. learnedthehardway*

      Yeah – I’ve worked on MULITPLE recruitment projects where the reason for the vacancy was that someone was being let go / had been let go for performance issues.

      Never once have I given anyone identifying information about them, whether I was the in-house recruitment manager or an external search consultant. Frankly, that would violate privacy legislation, where I live. Also, I have to keep the company confidential, if I’m acting as an external recruiter, until a certain point in the process.

      In general, I will avoid mentioning the person was the problem, and will say that there are multiple areas of concern that need to be addressed in the functional area. The candidate can read between the lines, if they want to. In an age with all kinds of social media, the candidate may be able to figure out who is/was in the role, but there’s a limit to what I can do about that, and I’m certainly not going to provide specifics about the person.

      The OP should definitely avoid this company.

    2. Just Thinkin' Here*

      I read this scenario as last interviewer was in fact trying to save applicant from a dumpster fire. Still don’t understand why HR or hiring manager would add this interviewer at the end unless the applicant requested it. I’ve asked before to talk to colleagues before joining the team but they always direct you to the most positive, upbeat person. This interviewer was the opposite. Take the hint and run.

      1. Typity*

        If that was the interviewer’s motive, I don’t think there’d be a reason for her to share all the personal details about the person who was fired.

        In fact, it sounds like this person may even have asked to do an interview specifically so she could tell LW (and possibly other applicants) how terrible she thought the previous employee was. I could even see a *really* bad manager doing this to put a potential new hire in their place.

        But of course I’m in complete agreement that LW needs to run, far and fast.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        This wasn’t the last interviewer hinting that the OP shouldn’t take the job. This was the last interviewer showing OP exactly who they are and what a nightmare they would be to work for (or stop working for).

        Who knows, maybe they’re screening for people who don’t recognize red flags, bad management and completely unprofessional behavior.

    3. K Smith*

      Yes yes yes, agree. A manager badmouthing a current or former employee during an interview is a HUGE red flag in my book. If that happens during an interview, that sort of backstabby, passive-aggresive jerkiness is likely a normal part of company culture.

      Trust your gut LW3 – don’t take this job (assuming you can afford to keep looking).

  10. Katie*

    I had a good friend that I did a lot with for several years (I met my now husband at her house). We had a falling out because of her antics and I didn’t see/talk to her.

    She started working at the same 500 person company in different departments. It was insanely easy to ignore her! Heck, we happened to be at HRs desks at the same point and straight up lied to HRs innocent question about being pregnant so she couldn’t know that announced fact.

        1. Silver Robin*

          If Katie has announced the pregnancy at work, it makes total sense for HR to ask something like “do you have a sense of when you are planning to go on leave?” or “by the way, we have XYZ benefits for pregnant workers, have you looked at those yet?”

          You can say it was indiscreet for HR to ask in earshot of other people, but it is entirely reasonable for HR to have work related (innocent) questions for the relevant employee.

          Also, some people do have small bits of personal chitchat with their coworkers. I have a pregnant coworker and it is widely known (and visible); I wished her well and asked about the due date during a small chat in an elevator. There is nothing wrong with that. I have no idea what Katie’s relationship is to this particular HR person, but I think we can trust Katie’s characterization of HR’s question as “innocent”.

          1. KateM*

            Katie wrote “straight up lied to HRs innocent question about being pregnant so [ex-friend] couldn’t know that announced fact”. How does that fit the questions you suggested?

            1. bamcheeks*

              I am genuinely not sure who straight-up lied here, because I think Katie accidentally missed the subject out. So I initially read it the way you did, where Katie was angry with Bad Friend for “straight-up lying” in response to an innocent question, but then I thought it might actually have been Katie saying that she straight-up lied about an already-disclosed pregnancy so that Bad Friend didn’t find out about it?

              1. KateM*

                I understood it as “HR person asked innocently if Katie was pregnant, and although Katie had announced it to her team, she outright lied to the HR because ex-friend was listening and she didn’t want her to know it”.

                But one way or another, a question “about being pregnant” sounds to me definitely as asking “are you pregnant?” which is NOT an innocent question to ask in any context except at a medical appointment, and definitely not by a HR in a workplace.

                1. KateM*

                  And I mean that for me “do you have a sense of when you are planning to go on leave?” or “by the way, we have XYZ benefits for pregnant workers, have you looked at those yet?” would be questions “about pregnancy”, not “about being pregnant”.

                2. Silver Robin*

                  I am kind of stumped by the assumption that “are you pregnant” is inherently malicious when HR is often the ones handling leave/benefits and therefore has literal job duties related to whether an employer is pregnant.

                  I can imagine multiple different scenarios where, at most, HR was a bit indiscreet, but the intent was entirely benign. And I am further stumped about why we are distrusting Katie’s judgement on the innocence of the comment she was actually present for

                3. Silver Robin*

                  okay, differentiating “being” vs “are” is splitting hairs a bit too far for me, especially in a comment section. I see and understand the distinction you are making, but I think it is unfair to project that onto Katie’s word choice.

                4. KateM*

                  @Silver Robin, I see that you haven’t yet gotten the memo of “it is fine to ask if someone is pregnant only if you see the baby crowning” (actually, don’t ask even then, of course). It is up to the pregnant person to tell HR when they want their leaves and benefits handled, not HR persons to go around asking if employees are pregnant! And out of all employees, HR should be the one who knows this best.

                5. KateM*

                  Also, as heaps of women have been brainwashed into believing that nosy busybodies demanding information on their sex life / squeezing their bellies without consent / etc is innocent and normal, I really can’t give any weight to a claim that the question “are you pregnant?” by a coworker, especially a HR person, was innocent.

                6. Silver Robin*

                  I did not say that you were wrong about asking if someone is pregnant, I just said that I do not think that is the only obvious interpretation of Katie’s statement. Katie might come in and tell me I am wrong, and I will accept that. But I am the one here believing Katie’s assessment (and her context that this was an announced pregnancy, which changes the calculus on asking if one is pregnant) and you are the one interpreting things as malicious or unkind.

              2. Silver Robin*

                I absolutely read it as the second.

                By my interpretation, the lie is an extension of ignoring Bad Friend by also ensuring a highly restricted information diet so that Bad Friend cannot insinuate herself into anything related to Katie. This is so extreme that Katie will not even allow Bad Friend to know something about Katie’s already announced pregnancy. (Extreme is not a judgement here, just a descriptor of the level of restriction.)

            2. fhqwhgads*

              I read this as HR knew Katie was pregnant and was asked an innocent question about it while ex-friend was at another HR’s desk within earshot, but Katie did not want ex-friend to know about said pregnancy and thus lied to avoid ex-friend being in the loop.

              1. WellRed*

                I’ve got news for Katie: eventually ex friend will find out. Who cares? What’s the point of all this mental gymnastics?

              2. KateM*

                Yes, but if someone asks “by the way, we have XYZ benefits for pregnant workers, have you looked at those yet?”, I don’t how lying in your answer is going to save you from your ex-friend surmising that you are pregnant.

  11. Fishsticks*

    LW #1, I would take a closer look at your company culture and the overall dissatisfaction of employees. Frankly, it sounds like there’s more going on here than one toxic/disgruntled employee. Generally speaking, ex-employees, especially ex-managers, don’t stay in this kind of contact with current workers related to work things unless things are pretty bad.

    I’d take a closer look at the company’s culture and your own behavior/how you’re handling work issues as they arise.

    Note: Part of this does stem from having worked for about two years for a husband-and-wife small business owner team. The culture was overall fine… when the bosses weren’t in the office. But we struggled heavily when they were because they could be so poisonous to the atmosphere and really handled a lot of management stuff poorly that should have been delegated to the actual manager they hired to do so. They refused to acknowledge or admit to any mistakes ever, and it definitely turned things into a tense and sometimes bristling space that could be hard to work in. We all used to breathe a sigh of relief when we would hear that the owners wouldn’t be in that day, because we knew we could actually get out work done and still get along with each other without one of the owners taking personal offense to the idea that coworkers sometimes talk about their days or lives rather than working in perfect silence for eight hours.

    So I acknowledge that I have some personal ‘oof, oh no, this seems familiar’ happening when reading this letter. And I 100% acknowledge that I could be wildly off base and letting my own former job affect how I read the letter. But I think there are enough similarities showing here that it might be worth a closer look.

    2. carrot cake*

      “Generally speaking, ex-employees, especially ex-managers, don’t stay in this kind of contact with current workers related to work things unless things are pretty bad.”
      ———-

      Huh? As noted, it’s odd Lark is even in touch with them to begin with about their work tasks. In no way does her being in touch automatically implicate problems with anyone except Lark. She sounds bored and conniving, and I’ll bet she hasn’t found a captivating audience at NewJob, which sounds like her sole goal. Sh*t starters always need an audience and will go wherever they need to to collect at least one.

      1. Fishsticks*

        Yeah, it IS weird. Which is why I think it’s indicative of some toxic behavior going on within the workplace outside of Lark specifically. A happy workplace is one that would shrug it off or not want to spend hours obsessing over work after hours.

    3. Hroethvitnir*

      Yeah, given the details like the employees not finding Lark’s contact weird, turnover at director level, and people quitting while mentioning issues (associated with Lark), I feel it’s extremely likely the picture being painted is inaccurate.

      Hopefully they will take Alison’s advice on board regardless.

  12. Hyaline*

    The former employee in #1 may well be bats, but holy cannoli is this situation screaming “other problems”—bats former employee’s interference is making people distrust their management? Not by itself, I’d wager. People aren’t willing to share this information with you unless they’re also out the door? Why in the heck not? Seriously—there are deeper problems here that it seems LW is totally oblivious of.

    1. Pocket Mouse*

      Very much this! From the wording of “chose to put in her notice” and onward, the LW seems to be washing her hands of any responsibility for what was/is going on, and certainly doesn’t mention any actions she or others have taken to try to improve things within the workplace. Not to mention that it doesn’t even sound like Lark is inserting herself into operations! And it’s not even confirmed that staff are sharing any sensitive info with her! I’d bet she’s checking in with staff about things she knows they have going on, and staff are telling her it’s still awful and stressful – those are the messages they don’t want the owner/management to see. If staff are more open about what’s affecting their work with an ex-employee than they are with their management, that’s huge red flags on management. If management were good, management would be able to see the necessary path forward—or at least issues that need to be addressed—without cornering staff into saying out loud what’s going wrong.

  13. I'll have the blue plate special, please.*

    #OP 1: Have a meeting with your staff and find out what’s going on. Instruct them that no information should be shared with this ex-employee anymore and reset any company passwords. Maybe also talk to a lawyer?

    1. Observer*

      Sure. Have that meeting and give those orders. But only if you are fine without every finding out what is going on, totally (and justifiably) cementing people’s mistrust of management, insuring that no one else is ever going to share anything with you again – even when leaving the company (since they may not want to throw their coworkers under the bus), and losing all of your best people in short order.

    2. rebelwithmouseyhair*

      I’m not sure if, as an employee, I’d feel like being very forthcoming in a meeting. OP first has to win her staff’s trust.

  14. Mad Scientist*

    I feel for Marlie in LW2. I had a falling out with a close friend / roommate towards the end of college, and we work in the same small industry in the same metropolitan area, so it’s definitely possible that we could work together or at least cross paths at some point. I heard through the grapevine that she was unhappy in her first job after college, but that was a few years ago, and I genuinely hope she’s doing better now. I’ve gotten notifications from LinkedIn that she has looked at my profile a few times over the years, but that is the most contact we’ve had, which I am grateful for. I have thought about how I would handle it if we had to work together, and I think Alison’s advice is spot on. It would be uncomfortable if we had to collaborate frequently, but I’d hope we could both be professional about it.

  15. RagingADHD*

    LW1, so during Lark’s tenure, she repeatedly told leadership she was unhappy and wanted to leave. What did they do about it? Why does it matter that she didn’t tell you directly?

    Why didn’t her leaders bring it up to you, if you needed to know?

    And if she was micromanaging the front line employees, why didn’t their actual supervisors talk to anyone about it? Or if they did, why didn’t anyone above Lark do anything about it?

    While it is very weird for Lark to do what she’s doing now, I don’t think her current actions are creating the mistrust and lack of communication. Sounds like it was already well entrenched.

  16. Crencestre*

    #3: Alison is right – those are huge red interview flags and they’re flapping right in front of your face! To paraphrase a wise saying, when interviewers show you what their companies are, believe them the first time.

    I once had an interview with someone who told me that her agency was planning to fire the person who currently held the job for which I was interviewing but that they hadn’t told her yet. She went on to say that they’d scheduled the interview with me on that employee’s day off so that she wouldn’t find out that she was going to be fired! I said nothing at the time, but I knew that if they’d do that to her then they’d be just fine with doing the same thing to me – and silently crossed that agency off my lost of potential employers. (I did get a job offer from that agency, declined it, and accepted an offer from an agency at which I stayed for 27 years.)

    And I’d add bragging about underhanded behavior and backstabbing your current employees to the list of interview red flags!

  17. HonorBox*

    OP4 – This is not a perfectly worded take here, I admit, but the way the company handled this is just stupid. First and foremost, don’t feel bad for taking the money from your manager. Presumably they make more than you. And presumably they have additional opportunities to recoup the $15 that they paid to you.

    If I’m your manager, I’d be happy to ensure that you weren’t paying to do your work. Also, if I’m your manager and their manager, I’d be pushing back farther up to make a change. First, there’s a big difference between essential and non-essential purchases. And there’s a big difference between an employee making a purchase on their own and an employee getting management approval for an expense. Critical and essential equipment should not be subject to this kind of policy. The company is either going to get sub-par equipment, have employees feeling like they should instead limp along with equipment that isn’t working properly, or undermine good will with employees when they’re not fully reimbursed. Also, there’s no reason that essential equipment should be something employees need to pay for and wait for reimbursement. That’s company property and the company should be paying directly, not forcing employees to float the purchase cost.

    1. Jackalope*

      This last point is key. If the equipment is essential for your job, then the company should be buying it, full stop. It should never be the employees’ responsibility to pay for it.

      1. HonorBox*

        Now thinking about it a little more, I find it really difficult to have an employee pay for nearly anything that is work-related. While there are circumstances in which this happens, it should be for things like mileage or an occasional meal. Or, I’ve purchased a plane ticket on my own card because it benefits me because I get double points.

        I have a friend who doesn’t have access to a company card or any sort of purchase system and has had to float hotel rooms, catering for large meetings, etc. on their own personal card. While they’ve been reimbursed, there’s the hassle of timing and ensuring that all your expenses make it onto the expense report rather than just saving a receipt to match up with a company credit card statement. Plus in one instance, their card was the one one file for a caterer and when the person who received the food added an extra gratuity (not realizing one was already built in) they didn’t get reimbursed by the company because it went against policy to add the tip.

        1. CommanderBanana*

          Plus in one instance, their card was the one one file for a caterer and when the person who received the food added an extra gratuity (not realizing one was already built in) they didn’t get reimbursed by the company because it went against policy to add the tip.

          Oh, hell no. I would refuse to use my card again after that.

        2. I Have RBF*

          Plus in one instance, their card was the one one file for a caterer and when the person who received the food added an extra gratuity (not realizing one was already built in) they didn’t get reimbursed by the company because it went against policy to add the tip.

          Seriously, I would get my credit card company to change my card number because someone else misused it. Then I would absolutely refuse to float the company any money on my card again.

          Yes, I’ve put company stuff on a personal credit card, multiple times, because the reimbursement was prompt and complete. If it hadn’t been, or if I didn’t have a good credit limit, I would have told them that it was financially impossible for me to lend them the money (which is what you are doing by using a personal credit card for work expenses.)

          I have had managers looks at how much I was going to need to spend on travel, etc, and get me signed up for a company card, because the potential outlay was too high to be floating on a personal card. This is the correct way to handle it, not “stiff the employee for $15”.

          I am really side-eyeing the company for LW #4. The whole things screams cheap-assed, penny-pinching, penny wise and pound foolish accounting practices. Unless it’s the federal government with weird political rules, it’s a bad practice for employers to expect employees to buy expensive equipment for the company and only get partially reimbursed.

  18. Somehow I Manage*

    OP3 – Run, run run. Hearing specifics about someone who held the job before, including how they left the job, their name, and the dates they worked there is not only a problem, it borders on illegal. That’s a HUGE red flag, and shows that if you were to leave, you couldn’t expect any sort of confidentiality from the company.

    And I’ll even push back on the sales targets. It is one thing if there’s a bit of a discrepancy between what HR and this manager told you. You could chalk that up to nuance in how it is presented. But if it is 3x different, something is amiss. It sounds like they’re not communicating well internally, and whoever ends up with the position is being set up to fail from the outset.

    I think I’d suggest that you withdraw from consideration. Tell HR about the differences you heard in sales targets. They’re being put in a position where you and others might withdraw because candidates are hearing vastly different goals presented in the interview process. And definitely let them know all that you heard about the previous employee. Hopefully they’re able to stop this from happening again. Not only does it make their hiring process more difficult, this leader may cause them to have to wade through some legal issues in the future.

    1. CommanderBanana*

      Seconding mentioning this to HR and/or the people you’ve already interviewed with! They may have no idea this is happening. Hopefully they’ll ask you why you’re pulling out of the interview process this far along.

      I recently took myself out of consideration for a position with an organization after I found out about a very bad discrimination lawsuit that had recently been settled against them (I read the case papers and it was clear that this was a systemic, entrenched, ongoing cultural problem, and several of the people named in the lawsuit were still employed at this org).

      The recruiter I had been working with was really taken aback, and IMHO weirdly defensive of the organization, but I had the opportunity to remind her that any other candidates would also be seeing this information – the lawsuit was in the news and there were several Glassdoor mentions of it, plus the case papers are public – and she needed to be proactively addressing this with candidates because it would keep coming up.

      1. Somehow I Manage*

        I’d sure hope that HR in this letter could both clarify what candidates are being told re: sales goals and remind the executive that sharing the information about why someone was fired, and who they are specifically is going to chase off good candidates.

        In your situation, I really hope that HR was able to do some proactive work to clean up in house before other good candidates find themselves in a similar position to you.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        I once let a recruiter bully me into going to an interview at a company I wasn’t interested in because it seemed really sketchy, and my research bore that out.

        When they asked if I had any questions, I asked them them what they’d changed about their sales practices since losing both a fraudulent sales practices lawsuit and a racial discrimination lawsuit two years earlier. They stammered and said that they didn’t have any salespeople, just “independent vendor businesspeople.” I have no poker face, so I assume they figured out what I thought of that excuse.

        They offered me the job anyway. I declined.

    2. carrot cake*

      About 10 years ago, I traveled for an interview. Part of the process was dinner the day I arrived (and om god I HATE that with the fire of a thousand suns, but I suppose that’s a different conversation for another day).

      Anyway, on the way to the restaurant, the person on the search committee who picked me up complained about the previous candidate (no name, though) and then complained about the boss! I immediately relaxed because 1) I’d already gotten another job offer and was simply checking out this job as a possibility regardless, and 2) I wasn’t desperate and therefore decided I wouldn’t accept the role even if offered.

      I mean, WHO does that?

  19. Your credit's fine Mr Torrance*

    I was willing to give Amanda another chance even seeing all the terrible things she’s done as a friend. But when I saw she left a text on read, well you can only push people so far

  20. Lizzo*

    LW2: This is great advice, but it’s going to feel difficult to implement because it feels mean, which is counter to how women have been socialized (be polite, be kind, don’t rock the boat). I would recommend that Marlie practice saying Alison’s recommended phrases out loud, preferably to another human, until the words are comfortable and feel very matter-of-fact. It will make it much easier to say them directly to Amanda if/when Marlie needs to.

  21. Jules the 3rd*

    I disagree with Alison on OP1. “Forgetting” a wallet multiple times indicates a serious integrity problem, which is relevant to work. If there was a way to casually mention “oh, yeah, don’t go to lunch with her! She has a habit of ‘forgetting’ her wallet’, I absolutely would do that. If not, I might go so far as to email the hiring manager something like, “Hi Mgr, I heard Amanda X was a candidate at the company. Just wanted to let you know, we went to college together and I have had an experience with her that makes me concerned about her integrity. If you want more info, let me know.”

    If there’s any folo conversation, then discuss *only* the ‘forgetting’ issue. The rest would not be appropriate, but that one is fair game.

    1. CommanderBanana*

      If there was a way to casually mention “oh, yeah, don’t go to lunch with her! She has a habit of ‘forgetting’ her wallet’, I absolutely would do that.

      Same. There was a recent comment in an earlier column about a new coworker getting hit up for a “loan” from a shady coworker that everyone else knew to avoid but no one warned her, so she ended up out a few hundred dollars. If you have a coworker that does stuff like this and management is not dealing with it, then yes, please warn your coworkers.

    2. Cordelia*

      “Hi Mgr, my experience with Amanda when we used to be friends was that she would often pretend to forget her wallet when we all went out. We just kept paying for her though, we didn’t actually do anything to stop it”.
      I am not sure a manager needs to hear this.

    3. Your credit's fine Mr Torrance*

      I would not recommend saying anything to the manager – as a mgr myself this would seem like you are stirring shit up, especially if it was in college and covering her lunch tab is hardly the crime of the century

    4. Broadway Duchess*

      This just sounds so gossipy and if one of my team told me this about another team member, I’d seriously question the messenger’s judgment.

      1. Sam I Am*

        Same. She was a bad friend and a moocher. It just looks like sour grapes to try and torpedo her candidacy, and would reflect worse on Marlie than Amanda.

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      All right, I’ll defer to the group judgement, that it would look like shit stirring.

      If I were a manager, I guess it could depend on my experience and relationship with Marlie. I am a very direct person and would appreciate hearing that she tried it, but not saying anything is less short term risk.

      There is the long term risk, though, that Amanda might come in and try to use Marlie as a social reference, or try to undermine her professionally as well as personally. I worked with a team lead who was this kind of duplicitous and it sucked.

  22. Sunflower*

    #1 Is it possible to tell current employees to ignore or delete work related emails from this person? That since she’s no longer an employee, they should not be discussing business with her (it may even be unethical depending on the details discussed).

    Please *talk* to your employees so they feel comfortable coming to you with problems. The workplace situations doesn’t sound good from what little we see revealed in the letter.

  23. EA*

    For number 4, I have done this as a manager and would do it again, so I encourage the OP not to feel badly about taking a manager’s money! As a manager, I would much rather spend a small amount of my own money in the short term and then work to get a policy changed, rather than making my employee pay and risking loss of morale/resentment.

  24. CommanderBanana*

    LW#1, this is bizarre. It’s weird enough that your former employee can’t let go, but I’ve seen that happen before. It’s even weirder that your employees are being so secretive about this. Something else is going on. I would take a very hard, clear-eyed look at the culture of your organization and try to figure out why employees are so distrustful.

    LW#3, do not take this job, and please share what the senior member is telling you with whoever you’ve been interviewing with up until now.

  25. juliebulie*

    #3 that manager sounds like a very spiteful person who is so angry about your predecessor that she wants to take it out on you. That alone qualifies as a blazing red flag. The rest of the stuff is just garnish. Run, run, run away.

    1. juliebulie*

      Oops, she’s not a manager but a team member? Someone you’ll probably have to work with regularly? A nightmare.

  26. Observer*

    #1- Disgruntled ex-employee

    I want to highlight and somewhat summarize something that’s showing up a lot in the comments (although I have not read all of them yet.)

    Your problem is not your toxic ex-employee. It’s your toxic culture.

    1. For 8 months she complained to leadership, but somehow you – the owners of the company -never heard about it. What exactly does “leadership” mean in your company that *no one* the “leadership team” recognized this as a problem you needed to know about and / or just decided to not tell you.

    2. For 8 months she was busy with doing stuff that had nothing to with her, and was micromanaging employees that weren’t in her remit. And somehow no one passed this on to anyone with the authority and / will to deal with it. And no one at that level noticed that this was going on.

    3. Somehow the calls and questions of a *very* short tenure*ex*employee are causing your staff to not be honest and to distrust leadership. It doesn’t seem to have occurred to you to think about *why* she is able to have this effect sooooo easily.

    4. The *only* person who told you anything is someone was quitting anyway.In other words, your team did not trust you *before* she started otherwise her meddling would have gotten back to you before this.

    What was your reaction to hearing about this? How did it come to “no one will show us the evidence”? It sounds like the first thing you did was launch the kind of investigation that might feel to people like a “witch hunt.” These calls and texts are clearly happening on personal devices, and I really cannot blame anyone for not wanting to share their device with a leadership team they already have reason to mistrust.

    It’s also worth noting that the ONLY thing you apparently can think of to do is to order your staff to stop talking to her. And I get why you want to do that. But that simply cannot be your main response. Because even if they comply (which you really have no way to know) they are still not not going to trust you, they are still not communicating, and you still have no visibility into what is actually going on in your company.

    Alison is 100% correct. You need to MANAGE. And manage WELL. If there is anything the I would say about her response is that it may be a bit understated. But if you read this column enough, you will see that she tends to *not* yell, scream, or wave her arms around unless something is “worst boss of the year” territory, and even then, not always.

    1. Hroethvitnir*

      Fantastic comment. Taking the letter in the best possible faith, it just doesn’t make sense. No one would *want* to talk to an ex-senior employee who micromanaged them. The fact people are quitting while mentioning issues and the LW is only focusing on the fact Lark had the same issues therefore Lark was the problem.

      There is a huge range of possibilities in how much the LW’s impression lines up with reality, but it’s clear that they have a massive culture problem and are focusing on the wrong thing.

      As usual, Alison’s advice was great. But it is a long, hard road to improve culture, and worse if the core problem is distrust of you (which it may or may not be).

  27. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

    OP4 (equipment more than $300 so manager paid the difference) There’s a couple of additional aspects to this, on top of the $15 on this occasion:

    – If $315 is a typical cost for the equipment, and that’s the item that is required (it seems so, since both the manager and the senior manager were ok with approving it), what happens next time a new piece of equipment needs to be purchased and in fact no exceptions can be made? I understand that the expenses team need to have proper controls in place and ensure that policy is followed, but a policy that doesn’t allow for any exceptions seems crackers – especially because the way this usually works is that the ‘expenses’ team doesn’t own the whole budget, the budget is owned by the senior manager (or a higher level manager with chain of command over OP) who decides on what can be spent – of course there are still common sense limits to this.

    – Regardless of the purchase going through OP first, what’s happened in fact is that “the company” needed this item to be purchased, “the company” isn’t willing to pay the full cost, so OP’s manager has funded the difference. When put in those terms I don’t think the situation is quite as acceptable as it seems at first. What would have happened if the written policy had been “nothing over $300, exceptions not possible” but the item was $315 and needed to be purchased. Manager needs to be raising these questions. I feel bad saying this since it was clearly a nice gesture from the manager, but they don’t seem to have thought ahead very far – “OP is out $15 so I’ll give it to them” isn’t a repeatable business process – unless the manager intends to fund any further ‘outside budget’ expenses costs!

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      The other thing that just occurred to me is that this is capital expenditure, right? So now the company has an asset worth $315, that they depreciate over time from a value of $315, that they have in fact only paid $300 for. I realise $15 isn’t “material” in most accounting situations, but it is a technicality. They can’t really treat the $15 as ‘supplier discount’ etc either.

      1. Observer*

        The other thing that just occurred to me is that this is capital expenditure, right?

        Probably not. Regardless of what the item is, most places won’t treat something as “capital” unless it hits a certain cost threshold, and $3o0 is lower than is typical.

        1. I Have RBF*

          I agree.

          In most places capital equipment starts at $500 or $1000. Laptops are capital equipment; keyboards, mice and most monitors are not. IIRC, what counts as capital equipment is governed in part by federal and state tax codes regarding depreciation and expenses (and these amounts change regularly.)

    2. Just Thinkin' Here*

      This is a good point. OP – don’t ever purchase anything on the company’s behalf again. Make them front the money and make the purchase.

  28. Observer*

    #4 – Reimbursement

    You know why your manager insisted on paying you? Because she messed up. She should be familiar enough with the company policies that she doesn’t have to rely solely on the company web site. And if she saw that there was a way to over-ride it, she should have checked *first* how to go about it.

    Also, I think that your manager *should* have gone above the heads of the “expenses team”. This reminds me a bit of “guacamole Bob”. The difference here is that at least your boss did not leave you hanging. So, at least there is that.

    Having said that, there is something off with your management. It’s unacceptable that you were being penalized by the company for relying on ~~their~~ site*. It’s ridiculous that they would pull this nonsense over 15 whole dollars!

    Last but not least, why are *you* paying for equipment needed for your job? Given this mess, I would absolutely *never* agree to lay out anything for the company, ever again. You can’t trust them to honor anything they say, even in writing (perhaps with the exception of someone in the C suite)

    *Fun fact – the IRS tried pulling that. They tried to claim that it doesn’t matter what their site / customer services reps said. If someone got something wrong because they depended on the information provided by the IRS, they were still liable. They tried that on the wrong person and they got slapped down by the courts.

  29. OP3*

    OP3 here. Thank you to Alison and all the commenters for your unequivocal clarity. I work in an often toxic industry and have weathered a lot of unprofessional behavior over the years but this was beyond the pale. For those who have wondered, this team member would not manage this role, but she does spend part of the year working out of the region this role would be overseeing. I suspect it’s entirely about feeling threatened by anyone they may hire, which is why this (critical, business generating) role has been empty for nearly a year.

    Any suggestions for how to let professionally HR know what was said? I don’t want to throw this person under the bus, but also feel like they should probably know what’s happening. I also fear getting an offer and them getting angry when I decline.

    1. LL*

      I’ve never dealt with this before, but in the email where you tell them you are dropping out of the search, I’d say something like “I was interested in the job until speaking to ___. They said ____ (factual description of what they said) and I worry that this person would not keep my own information confidential if I took the job.” And then maybe something about “just wanted to let you know because ___” and I can’t think of a good reason lol.

    2. MigraineMonth*

      Throwing someone under the bus is when you make them take the fall for something they didn’t do. You’re just letting a company know about one of their employees’ extremely unprofessional conduct during a business meeting with you.

      What the company chooses to do about that is up to them, but I’ll note that this person breached confidentiality about a former employee and, if you’re correct, has been intentionally undermining their company’s hiring process and damaging its business. If they are fired, that is probably appropriate, and entirely due to their own actions.

      I hope that a business wouldn’t get angry at any candidate who declines, but you can short-circuit that possibility by withdrawing your candidacy *before* you receive any sort of offer. LL is correct that with it (if you choose!) you should provide your HR contact with a factual description of what your interviewer said about the previous employee.

  30. Angora540*

    1. Disgruntled ex-employee keeps contacting current employees

    Your employer may be able to block her phone number. I’ve seen that before when people are fired for a reason. Especially if it gets ugly. If she finds a way to go around the switchboard block or uses a different phone number, you may have to get a restraining order. Before doing that, I recommend having your lawyer send her formal letter requesting that she refrain from calling the business. I believe if such documentation is sent, and she continues to make the calls having that letter stating that the request has been made and she’s not honoring your request.

    1. Observer*

      That would be a *terrible* idea.

      Why would a judge give a restraining order? You’re going to have to show that she’s contacting the company and somehow harming it. Which is going to be hard to do. Keep in mind, she’s clearly not contacting the company directly, but rather calling / messaging individuals.

      This kind of process takes time and resources. Even if they got that order, is it going to do anything to make it worth the investment? I’d bet that the answer is no.

      How would you enforce that? Again, she’s not using the company systems to contact people. There is just no way for a company to actually regulate who people talk and text with on their own time and equipment.

      I can’t imagine what it would do to the reputation of the company once this came out. Even if people don’t jump to the conclusion that the company is a basket case of mismanagement, the kind of speculation and novel writing that is likely to happen is not going to be good for the company.

      Once staff know about this, you will have lost any chance to regain their trust. You’ll lose your best people. And people coming in will hear about it long after the original staff are gone.

  31. Trout 'Waver*

    In regards to #3, I’m not giving HR the free pass that Alison is here. If they were innocent, they’d be just as likely to be wrong in either direction about the sales goals and objectives. But somehow they always error on the low side. I’m highly skeptical.

    1. Your credit's fine Mr Torrance*

      In my experience this isn’t a conversation HR should be having anyway, it should be whoever’s this person’s manager or director is. Lots of red flags in this one !

  32. Raida*

    1. Disgruntled ex-employee keeps contacting current employees

    Every manager needs to sit down 1:1 with their staff and straight out ask “What did Lark say she was handling or advocating both for you and for the work unit?”
    And get a list of everything. Now some people might realise this is a good time to raise things they want to get attention – that’s fine. It’ll just add to the pile of “things she only talked about but never actually did” and it’ll give your business a list of things staff want looked at.

    By getting the list you can nail down
    1) everything she bloody well didn’t do
    2) everything she gave different stories about to different people
    3) a list of things staff want addressed

    Acting on the first lets you show staff she was a liar only interested in her personal brand and not doing work.
    Acting on the second lets you find issues she’s created by putting misinformation out there, which needs correcting.
    Acting on the third gives you the opportunities for managers to show staff this is what it looks like when things are actually acted upon, by doing the work.

    Altogether this is find issues, correct misinformation, empower (or perhaps press the correct expectations upon) managers to advocate for their staff, improve staff moral and faith in the business.
    Plus discredit her extremely THOROUGHLY.

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