my boss said I looked “unprofessional” when I wore a binder to work

by Alison Green on October 22, 2024

A reader writes:

I have a question about a point that is now, thankfully, moot.

My previous manager, Rufus, wasn’t an especially ethical individual and failed to fulfill many of his expected duties. He was also kind of a creep. We all just put up with his unsavory and unprofessional comments, and occasionally pushed back when we felt it was important to do so.

One situation, though, left me without clear direction. I am non-binary, though I wasn’t out at work (a few coworkers pieced it together, but it wasn’t widely known). When I began to discreetly wear a binder to work, Rufus began to make comments about how I needed to look more professional. Over time, this evolved into getting feedback on my wardrobe as often as a few times per week.

It wasn’t a one-time fluke. It was a regular part of my life for months. I tried wearing an acceptable outfit (chinos and crewneck sweater) with my binder, then again with an underwire bra. With the underwire, I was complimented on dressing professionally. With the binder or a sports bra, I was again criticized. All the while, I was actually dressing above our company standards, which were snappy casual. I stopped wearing jeans and switched to business casual (chinos, khakis, and slacks, always with a structured top and nice shoes). My binder wasn’t visible, nor did it cause visible cleavage. It didn’t matter. One person I worked with closely and who knew my gender identity actually brought my boss’s comments up to me, so I wasn’t just being sensitive.

While I don’t hold Rufus in high regard for a number of reasons, I will be fair and say I don’t think he did this on purpose. I think he just preferred the way I looked some days and didn’t bother to question what, specifically, he liked. It was kind of like when a manager asks a femme if she’s feeling okay when she forgoes makeup. Except it wasn’t makeup, it was my body, and a part of my body about which I am dysmorphic.

I never said anything. I did not feel safe outing myself to him. Instead, I asked him to elaborate what was or wasn’t professional about specific outfits. He wasn’t able to give me anything, but he also didn’t stop the comments until he abruptly quit. He just laughed when I mentioned the frequency of his comments.

Was there anything else I could have done in this situation, other than out myself to him or upper management?

P.S. This story has a happy ending. I am now under a wonderful manager who gives prompt and actionable feedback about my job and only my job. I am learning lots of interesting new skills, and I no longer dread going to work. I have had no contact with Rufus.

Rufus is an ass.

He was indeed harassing you around gender presentation — and around the appearance of your boobs, specifically — whether he was consciously aware of it or not.

And really, when a manager finds themselves giving someone repeated dress code feedback, they have a high obligation to interrogate themselves about exactly where you’re violating expectations and then provide clear and specific guidance on that. “You need to look more professional” doesn’t meet that bar. And “you don’t look sufficiently professional even though you’re in the same outfit I judged professional last week” really should have raised some flags in his mind about what his judgments were based on.

Also, I’m guessing you wouldn’t have gotten this feedback if you were just naturally flatter-chested and appeared that way every day, so either (a) in the most generous reading, he was unconsciously responding to “her figure looks less pleasing to me today” and not bothering to think about why before trying to make that your problem, or (b) he was aware of why and still felt free to make that your problem, which would make it full-on sexual harassment and would make him a terrible person. Either way: a jerk, and just a question of degrees.

If you had a time machine, it would be interesting to go back and say to him, “This is the same outfit I wore last week that you told me looked professional. Every time you’ve given me this feedback, I’ve been in nice pants, a structured top, and nice shoes. I of course want to follow our dress code, so can you please give me more specific feedback about exactly where I”m violating it?” Or simply, “Can you tell me what specifically is out of compliance, so that I can ensure I’m within the dress code going forward?”

It sounds like you did ask him to elaborate and if your framing was similar to this and still elicited no details, then ideally your next step would be HR. HR isn’t useful for every type of problem you might encounter with a boss, but for something like this — where (a) you’re being told you’re violating a company policy and you don’t think you are and/or (b) gender presentation is involved, they’re often much better trained to handle it than a random manager might be. Not always, of course — there’s bad HR out there — but if you’d gone to see HR in person on one of the days Rufus told you that you were dressed unprofessionally, relayed his feedback, explained that he was telling you this regularly, and asked for guidance, there’s a decent chance they’d have talked to Rufus and shut it down (even without you needing to out yourself).

I’m sorry you had to work for such a jackwagon and I’m glad you’re in a better job now.

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{ 190 comments }

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  1. CityMouse*

    I just don’t know how else you can interpret this. If you wore the same outfit and he objected to a sports bra or binder and not an underwater bra, he’s looking at your breasts.. That’s incredibly creepy.

      1. CityMouse*

        I want to emphasize this is a terrible reality, but depending on your HR and how good they are you might get more traction presenting this as sexual harassment instead of gender expression harassment. Really depends on your office’s culture.

        1. Arrietty*

          It’s really both – “my boss judges whether or not I look professional based on whether my underwear accentuates my breasts or not” is just all round awful.

          2. Mine Own Telemachus*

            Yup, it’s sex-based harassment which is about gender identity AND perceived sexuality.

        2. SALC*

          Yes… addressing that you get these comments when wearing a sports bra is a way to discuss it without outing yourself or bringing gender presentation into it.

          “I am getting feedback on not looking professional enough based on the bra I wear! And no the issue is not with a lack of bra or one that exposes too much but rather one that is less ‘flattering’ like a sports bra.” It’s quite likely that HR would have told him to STFU if they were anywhere near competent

          I’m sorry this happened to you OP. Everyone should leave each other alone about their bodies unless specifically asked for feedback or opinions, which is obviously never going to happen at work

          1. BinderLW*

            We didn’t have onsite HR. He was in charge of training me for a big promotion, so I figured it was best to just keep my head down and get that paycheck.

            1. allathian*

              I’m so glad he’s no longer your boss! He had no business commenting on your appearance like that, and I hope you find all the comments here saying as much validating.

    3. amoeba*

      And I’d say also, like, additionally creepy because… I’d assume the binder minimises the breast? So, like, he complains about the outfit when the breasts are *less* visible? This makes it even stranger/creepier/less appropriate to me than the (I guess more common?) case when the outfit might be judged unprofessional when you’re, for instance, not wearing a bra so there’s a lot of visible jiggling. Or a push up so you’re suddenly showing much more cleavage. Still not OK to judge but at least *somewhat* understandable for me. But this? WTF?

      1. Ally McBeal*

        Yep. Rufus saw OP as a woman and decided, consciously or not, that if he couldn’t see their breasts then they are not behaving as a woman should, and are therefore behaving unprofessionally.

      2. OhGee*

        YEP. OP, I’m so sorry you had to deal with this, and so glad your work life is significantly better now. I imagine this particular kind of critique was especially painful for you.

      3. metadata minion*

        Yep. Depending on the binder style and one’s personal topography, it can cause a bit of a “uniboob” appearance, rather than looking either completely flat-chested or smaller-breasted, but that’s still not unprofessional.

        1. KaciHall*

          I have worn a real bra approx 4 times since 2020. I have a larger chest. If someone were to call me out for wearing nothing but sports bras at work, I would be livid. (Granted, today my shirt has a fox flipping the double bird and the saying “Look at all the fox I give” and it only got a brief comment, so it’s unlikely. )

    6. Naomi*

      Yes, I think that if you had taken it to someone above him, the way to frame it without outing yourself would have been the sports bra vs. underwire comparison. The direct focus on your breasts might have made the conversation uncomfortable in a different way, but it also makes it pretty clear what Rufus’ real problem with your outfit was.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        Absolutely; OP would not necessarily need to out themselves to say “I get harassed everyday that I don’t wear wired underwear and I’m sick of it” but I can see them thinking “Oh, Rufus doesn’t know what’s really going on with me, and I need magic words to describe this , and I don’t want to out myself”. Maybe he really was unconscious about the whole thing, but that doesn’t mean he can’t be made to apologise for”I don’t know what I like on you until I see it” grossness and flat out laughing about being so vague and unexamined (it’s enormously stressful to be first hectored and then dismissed that way!) My personal bet is that Rufus was absolutely aware what the difference was and he was just a creep who liked to signal that he notices breasts. He wasn’t quite as keen on going on the record.

      2. Baldrick*

        I was thinking the same. Make it a clear comment about underwire vs sports bra. I’d even be tempted to track it for a few weeks to make it clear that this isn’t random and is frequent.

      3. Oh January*

        A note here about terminology:

        I (a fat but quite flat chested non-binary person) have been dress coded for wearing a sports bra because a sports bra is “exercise clothes*,” so if someone in this situation didn’t want to draw attention to the “sports bra” they could call it a “minimizing bra” or “minimizer” instead. The bras my mother (very large chested) wears are marketed as this and they are basically high support sports bras designed for everyday comfort.

        *To clarify, this is a batshit take, but sometimes changing your terminology can avoid additional battles and allow you to focus on the “stop policing my undergarments and/or gender presentation” part

        1. Ellis Bell*

          I was definitely thinking about terms like minimiser or non-wired bra too, but can I just say it is flat out ridiculous that you were dress coded for wearing underwear that stretched on instead of being hooked on, just because it has “sports” in the title? Are sports coats and sports cars also off limits?

    7. Dust Bunny*

      Right? I have no idea what my coworkers might or might not be wearing under their clothes because I don’t care and I’m not looking. All I know is that they are clothed to a degree and in a manner that is appropriate to our workplace.

    8. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      Can we maybe say “chest” rather than “breasts” when referring to this LW? They’ve said they’re dysphoric about that part of their body, and using a specifically female-coded word to refer to them is not going to help.

      1. CityMouse*

        I understand the point, but I’d also posit that using chest downplays the specific sexualized and feminized performance Rufus was getting out of it. So I see the point but in this instance were LW or someone in their position to use “chest” when framing this issue to HR, it might result in it being underplayed. Language choice in framing of an issue impacts how that issue is perceived.

          1. CityMouse*

            Who we don’t know what words they choose to use. People who are NB do not all use the same vocabulary. My sibling is on the scale of trans/non binary and masculine presenting but also uses female anatomy words.

            1. hiraeth*

              No, of course we don’t all use the same vocabulary, and LW might be totally fine with the word – but they didn’t use it in the letter and without anything else to go on, I would personally aim to mirror their language or if in doubt go as neutral as possible. Everyone has a chest.

              1. hiraeth*

                Aaand scrolling down I can see LW is fine with the word, so that’s good. (Hopefully I’ve been clear that I wasn’t trying to speak for LW, just trying to raise a possibility in the absence of definite info. Not every non-binary or transmasc person would feel OK having their chest described as “prominent boobs” or similar.)

                1. CityMouse*

                  And many NB people wouldn’t be okay with referring to their chest generally. My sibling would not. Don’t group and make assumptions about trans and NB people.

                2. hiraeth*

                  Cool, thanks for educating me. I know I said things like ‘we don’t all use the same vocabulary’ and talked about using neutral language ‘in the absence of definite info’, but clearly what I meant was ‘all trans people hate this so never ever say breasts in front of them ever’. What a silly old genderqueer I am.

      3. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

        “Breasts” isn’t necessarily a sexualized or gendered word. People of all genders have breasts, can get breast cancer, etc.

        Always happy to use a person’s preferred terms for them, never want to push my assumption when they don’t indicate.

        1. BinderLW*

          Im fine with breasts, because that’s what they are. I do not identify with “woman” though, which I’ve seen a lot of in the comments. It’s not a big deal, but that’s the word I’d flag, not the anatomical terms.

          There’s lots of good ideas here. I appreciate them. It’s giving me a m sense of security to know that I can handle this if it ever comes up again. Thank you all!

    9. The Leanansidhe*

      No advice… just solidarity and sympathy. Started wearing a binder -> strangers started treating me differently. The most perceptive ones defaulted to they/them. Less perceptive people started assuming I was a teenager and treating me as such. How I wish it were a case of baby face…

  2. Czhorat*

    In addition to being transphobic, Rufus was clearly a sexist creep who put WAY too much focus on a subortinate’s breasts (for those wondering, the appropriate amount of focus to give on any co-worker’s breasts is “none”).

    I’m sorry you had to put up with that, and am glad you’re in a better spot now.

    1. metadata minion*

      The only context I can think of that a manager or coworker should comment on my chest is if I’ve lost a button or am similarly accidentally flashing the office and don’t appear to have noticed.

      Or maybe if you’re in certain kinds of performing arts, but then you’re working off a whole different rubric for dealing with coworkers’ bodies.

      1. Guacamole Bob*

        I worked at my campus theater in college and my (older, male) boss did make a comment in my hearing about the breasts of the college students who were on stage… but he did over headset to the stage manager who was also handling wardrobe/costumes for the performance. He could have found a more tactful way of phrasing it, as I recall, and it did come across as a bit dirty-old-man that he’d even noticed, but it was probably the only context I’ve ever been in where that kind of feedback about someone’s body was appropriate.

        1. RagingADHD*

          That immediately brings to mind the scene of Meryl Streep in Postcards from the Edge, mortified to overhear the director and costume designer talking about putting her in a camisole for the love scene.

    2. Paint N Drip*

      Totally agree. It’s a frustratingly common situation that the chest focus is non-zero. I had one boss who clearly found a large chest to be unprofessional, I received positive feedback after I switched to wearing only constricting/sports bras (by my own choice). I had another boss who clearly found maximizing sexuality as the peak of professionalism, and questioned my professionalism when I chose to wear more gender-neutral clothing or constricting/minimizing bras. These bosses were both cisgender and hetero, but different genders – although I find it interesting that this is a genderless issue, neither feedback was solely professional and was definitely based on my body (and my job is not impacted by my body)

  3. duinath*

    Unethical is right. It’s pretty obvious to me this had nothing to do with professional attire and everything to do with him wanting perky boobs in his eyeline, pardon my french.

    I’m glad you’re not around him anymore, LW.

  4. AnonymousOctopus*

    Rufus sucks and I’m glad you’re free of him, OP. I’m also nonbinary and I got my first binder recently. It’s wild how much wearing one unconsciously impacts people’s perceptions of you. Even at places I’m a regular at some servers won’t recognize me if I’m wearing my binder, whereas they are all smiles and chit-chat when I’m without it. I view that as a positive thing since it weeds out people who have some other reason for being friendly with me, but at work it’s harmful that some people judge professionalism differently based on one’s chest.

    1. Hroethvitnir*

      Oo, that’s fascinating. I’m trans masc – not currently planning on transitioning, but would like to present more ambiguous. My breasts don’t cause much dysphoria but I do like to imagine achieving a masculine silhouette.

      I do find the way people are more friendly to people perceived as women dysphoric some of the time, so the fact a binder can impact that makes it more attractive to me.

    2. BinderLW*

      Thank you for vocalizing this. I do think I act differently in one. I’m less timid, more comfortable asserting myself and taking up space. I also have trouble quantifying it, but I overall act a bit more masculine. I don’t think he liked that, either.

      As you can imagine, there were many issues in this work environment. My coworker and I were doing quite a bit of work that Rufus was meant to do, things I now know upper management believed he was handling personally. I think he recoiled from that competence coming from someone with confident, masculine-adjacent energy. He also had opinions on how my chest should appear.

      He was a very shallow person, and I think on some level he was confused why I would remove what he probably considered one of my best qualities (see Allison’s opening line for more on why’d he think this, when I’m an objective delight).

      I’m very happy to have that experience in the rearview.

      Thanks again for chiming in. It’s always good to hear from another NB!

  5. Meemur*

    Something similar happened to my friend and they straight up asked, “Is it because my breasts aren’t as prominent today?”
    That shut the comments off really quickly

      1. 2 Cents*

        I am in awe and would like to give a standing ovation.

        I’ve worked at some toxic places where I could see HR using the dress code line “appropriate undergarments” line to mean “underwire bra, not sports bra” (as I said, toxic).

        1. I Have RBF*

          There are not many things I would just quit a job with no notice over. Demanding that I wear an underwire bra, even when I was trying to appear femme, would have made me quit without notice.

          The last time I wore one of those infernal things I ended up with cuts on my chest and arms. If they tried to bury me in one of those things I would probably rise up as an avenging zombie.

          As long as it’s not showing outside my clothes, my employer does not get to police my underwear, FFS.

          Rufus is a creep.

          1. ThatOtherClare*

            Mass-produced underwire bras straight up aren’t designed to fit anyone with a ribcage smaller than 32 inches around. (They’re often not great if you’re above 32 inches, either.) Once you get down to 26-28 inches you start being offered ridiculous garments, like the bra I once bought online that had a back strap of only 11 inches long! Apparently the morons at the manufacturing company decided that clearly the only possible configuration for me to be an E-cup was for me to have giant flat dishes that stretched all the way around to my back! It was a major company too, although I won’t name names. That thing went right back immediately.

    3. Elle*

      I honestly think this is the best solution. “Rufus, you’ve had feedback about my appearance twice this week. All I can think of that I had done differently those days was wear a bra that makes my breasts less visible*. Could this be what you’re noticing?”

      *Due to the BS many people will spout when confronted with a nb person, I would honestly just sidestep it with someone like Rufus or HR.

      1. Meemur*

        I honestly put it down to them being Gen Z. They aren’t afraid to establish boundaries that I never could and will call out BS immediately. I am in awe of them on a weekly basis

  6. Lurker*

    Based on the title I thought this post was going to have to do with a Halloween costume where the OP wore a literal 3-ring binder as reference to Mitt Romney’s debate gaffe/phrase “binders full of women.”

    1. AnonInCanada*

      You weren’t the only thinking that :-p. But after reading the letter and Alison’s response: Yes, Rufus is a doofus.

    2. Mimmy*

      I too thought it was a literal binder at first! Sorry OP :(

      I have just one word about Rufus: Wow (and not in a good way).

    3. CubeFarmer*

      You were not the only one to think that at first, especially since “Binders full of women” recently came up in my Facebook memories.

    4. Binder*

      I thought the same thing! And my second thought was, maybe binder is another term for hair tie and this guy thinks ponytails are unprofessional?

    5. Dust Bunny*

      I mean, I guess if a member/1+ members of that specific subset of the population wore a binder/binders, then the binder/s would, in fact, be full of woman/women?

        1. hiraeth*

          To be completely fair, I think that by “specific subset of the population” Dust Bunny meant women. Anyone could bind if they felt like it.

          Though we are talking a LOT about women in response to a letter that is not from a woman. I get why, but.

          1. Ellis Bell*

            It seems like the most dreadful irony, that because Rufus classified OP as a woman and harassed the appearance of their chest, that OP is then put in the position of either outing themselves by pointing out the transphobia, or alternatively having to embrace the dynamic of being a harassed woman with HR. I can see why option no 3, of just constantly querying his thinking right back to him was most appealing to OP.

        2. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

          I am pretty sure that Dust Bunny was making a joke. It’s all the commas — totally gives it away.

    6. Bibliothecarial*

      Ha, that’s where I went too. I did dress up as a “binder full of women” at work when that phrase was fresh in the culture. Tiny office (5 women, maybe?) and I only put on my 3-ring binder when I knew due to prior conversations that the coworker would find it funny.

      Rufus is gross.

    7. N C Kiddle*

      In my corner of Twitter, there were lots of “If they’re in binders, are you sure they’re not trans men” jokes around that. Also when I first came across the “Victoria’s Secret Compartment” trope (a character uses their bra to store or hide something) I wondered whether the trans masc equivalent was keeping important documents in their binder

  7. Not on board*

    Yeah Rufus is disgusting. This is probably pretty common for people who are trans or non-binary, but it’s also an issue for women who either aren’t thin, and/or have large breasts. If you have very large breasts, there’s no way to hide them and you can get called out for being dressed “unprofessionally” when really what they mean is “can’t you hide those things?”
    In these cases, the OP did the right thing by asking him to be specific about what is unprofessional – but I would add that they could have said “you’ve said this a lot but without specific feedback about what you want me to change, I don’t think there’s any point to talking about it anymore”

    1. Elle*

      I think, though, that Rufus is complaining about the opposite- that these particular breasts are not prominent ENOUGH.

    2. bamcheeks*

      There was an awful letter on here a few years ago from someone who was post-mastectomy after breast cancer, and was being harassed by her manager whenever she didn’t wear (uncomfortable) prostheses.

      2. Hlao-roo*

        That letter (and the first update) was awful and infuriating! For anyone who’s curious, the original letter is “my coworkers complained that the look of my breasts post-mastectomy is making them uncomfortable” from January 7, 2019.

        There were updates on December 11, 2019 and December 23, 2020.

        2. Quill*

          Yeah, that one took the cake. People, don’t comment on someone’s post surgery body at work unless they are actively showing you their scar/incision and you need them to stop doing that.

          1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

            Post-surgery, pre-surgery, pregnant, post-partum, whatever, the only appropriate comments on someone’s body at work are things like “It looks like you might be having a serious medical emergency, can I call 911 for you?”

    3. CityMouse*

      Having been through nursing and all the weirdness people impose on you, I also dgaf about people’s weird breast hangups anymore and I will not cater to them. I wish I could give Rufus a piece of my mind.

  8. Observer*

    LW, obviously you know your workplace, so take that into consideration.

    But I think you could have taken it to HR without outing yourself. For one thing, he was harassing you over dress code violations that he “could” not define. I put that in quotes, because I am fairly confident that he absolutely knew what was bothering him, but he knew he couldn’t say it. Because he may not have known that you were wearing a binder, but there is no doubt that you looked more “busty” with the underwire.

    Which goes to the next point. He was clearly looking at your body rather than your clothes because you were wearing the *the same clothes*. You could even make that point explicitly without getting into too much detail. Like “Obviously I never discussed my lingerie with Rufus, but somehow he only though I was supposedly unprofessional when I didn’t wear an underwire.” I don’t think that would have been absolutely *necessary*, but depending on who you are talking to, it might be helpful. It does not matter *why* you were switching up your undergarments. If anyone had the stupidity and gall to ask why you don’t “just” keep wearing the underwire I would probably be too shocked to do anything but sputter. And that would be a perfectly legitimate response, even on purpose.

    Maybe I’m the only one, but this has some shades of the boss who didn’t “like the look” of ruching on women’s tops and threatened that LW’s job if she didn’t find clothes he “liked”.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      If it’s the letter I’m thinking of, the LW was also pregnant and most maternity clothes feature rouching, so it was even worse than just “I don’t like your clothes”, it was that he claimed all maternity wear was unprofessional and she had to somehow find a non-rouched or empire-waisted shirt that could be tucked in and belted over an 8-month pregnant belly or her job was at stake.

      I’ll post the links in a reply.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        1. My manager doesn’t like my maternity clothes https://www.askamanager.org/2017/06/my-boss-doesnt-like-my-maternity-clothes-employee-wears-a-blanket-for-sun-protection-and-more.html

        “He said that if I was going to wear a pant suit, the shirt needed to be tucked in and belted. Also that he did not like the look of side rouching or an empire waist on shirts and felt it was unprofessional. I told him that I would try to find maternity clothes that met his discription but that it would be difficult. He wasn’t convinced and said that my job depends on me being dressed according to his standards.”

        Barf.

        and the (good!) update: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/12/updates-the-maternity-clothes-the-nude-snapchats-and-more.html

      2. Observer*

        If it’s the letter I’m thinking of,

        Yes, it was. And that was kind of my point. The issue was never the *clothes* but her body.

        Basically, Boss was saying “find a way to look not pregnant or I’ll fire you.”

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          Totally! Just adding in that the letter you mentioned also involved pregnancy discrimination, just an extra layer of ugh to add on top of already gross body policing.

  9. iglwif*

    Rufus sucks. Consciously transphobic / cissexist? Possibly or possibly not. Sexist, inappropriate, and a total jerk? ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY.

    Obviously nobody of any gender should be considered more or less professional(ly dressed) based on the shape and size of their chest situation! But it feels even worse when the only effective way to make a complaint about it would involve outing yourself :/

  10. Bast*

    I sincerely hope that Rufus is not a manager, or involved in any hiring decision wherever he is now. He seems to likely have had an unconscious bias for presumably younger, more feminine presenting women (or who he though of as a woman in his head).

  11. Stella70*

    Spot on with the comment from OP about the women who usually wear makeup being “called out” when they don’t.
    I happen to look like a corpse when not wearing makeup (I twin with my grandfather, but his excuse is that he’s been dead for 20 years), so when I skip it or even wear just a bit less, I hear “You look tired today” or “You must be under the weather”.
    No, actually, this is just my face when I don’t apply makeup with a putty knife.
    I am always so tempted to say to a man, “Your bulge looks even smaller than usual. Not feeling confident today?”

    1. iglwif*

      Whenever some straight dude says they prefer women without makeup, I want to show them a photo lineup of women and see if they can actually tell which ones are and aren’t wearing makeup, because I bet they can’t.

      (Full disclosure: I haven’t worn makeup regularly in like 25 years, because I am just fundamentally too lazy — also I get sweaty and it drips off my face, and that’s just revolting. My spouse can absolutely tell if I am wearing makeup! But I would bet money he couldn’t look at some random person on the subway and answer that question accurately.)

      1. many bells down*

        Oh they’re so bad at telling. I don’t generally wear a lot of makeup, but I can assure you my eyelids are not naturally shiny gold. I get random messages from dudes online about my “natural beauty” and every time they’re commenting on a picture where I’m wearing makeup.

        1. CommanderBanana*

          I rolled up to a date once in a full face of slap, with my customary bright red lipstick, plus false eyelashes (I had a show later, I don’t usually wear lashes) and the guy I met claimed he thought I wasn’t wearing makeup.

          I don’t know if he was trying to be smooth, or just had terrible eyesight, or if men really think that women somehow naturally sprout winged liner and red lips at a certain age.

          1. Zelda*

            100% a line. To be filed in the same category (do you think I’m stupid/why do you think that’s a compliment/what the hll is wrong with your values) as calling a 60+ year-old woman “young lady.”

      2. kicking-k*

        Yeah. I also normally wear no makeup because I cannot be bothered, but I’ve had other people assume that I habitually do because my eyelashes and eyebrows are darker than my (uncoloured) hair. No, that’s just the colour they are… I’ve occasionally wondered if I look a little basic, but nobody has ever commented and nor should they.

        Come to that, I also wear a full control sports bra every day and it would never have occurred to me that it looks unprofessional – unless it were sticking out of my shirt! Because it doesn’t.

        2. I Have RBF*

          I don’t wear makeup. Haven’t for over thirty years. But my eyelids do look a bit bluish, like I have eye shadow, and I have had people swear I’m wearing makeup. It’s hilarious.

      3. Quill*

        I did this experiment in high school sociology class, when the boys were polled to see if they matched up with the reporting. I was wearing orange eyeshadow, but the boys knew me as a tomboy, so they assumed I wasn’t?

        I was informed that the teacher never did that specific survey in class again.

    2. Blue Pen*

      I really hate wearing makeup. I just don’t want to bother with it other than the absolute bare minimum: some concealer under my eyes and a little mascara. I know I look “””tired””” when I don’t wear it, but it’s more that I don’t look like I’m wearing a full face of makeup, and I hate that that’s the standard or expectation women have to abide to.

    3. CommanderBanana*

      ^^ Hahaha yes, this – I had to stop wearing eye makeup for two weeks before an eye surgery and was asked CONSTANTLY if I was ok, was I tired, did I have the flu? I try to think of it as a compliment for my makeup skills. :D

      I did have a former coworker who did No Makeup Mondays for exactly that reason, and I kind of loved that.

      1. Joielle*

        I had to not wear eye makeup for a week after I had LASIK surgery and the first day a couple people concernedly asked how I was doing. I was so confused until I made the connection! After that, I started wearing brighter lipstick and it seemed to help. People are so weird about makeup.

    4. Cat Tree*

      I have naturally dark under-eye circles that I was self conscious about for a long time. When I was in my first office job out of college, I once used a different concealer. Mind you, I wasn’t even without makeup, just using a different less-good kind. My boss asked if I got two black eyes! He then mildly interrogated me about it and wouldn’t accept my answer about make-up. But like, how could I prove my “no”? What could I possibly say to convince him other than maybe a doctor’s note?

      The best thing about getting old is that now I’m invisible and nobody cares what I look like.

    5. not nice, don't care*

      I’m actually glad when some of my favorite male youtubers wear make up. Wanting to enhance one’s appearance on camera should not be a gendered thing at all.

    6. HB*

      I’ve been thinking about this. If someone looks dramatically different with/without makeup, then the *first* time it happens the response can be chalked up to “I can tell you look different, and I can’t pinpoint why so I want to make sure nothing is wrong.” But if someone sometimes wears makeup and sometimes doesn’t and only gets questions when they don’t, it sounds much more like “I can tell you look different, and *I don’t like it.*”

      I actually had the inverse situation happen to me once. I was in a bad car accident in college and stopped wearing makeup except on rare occasions. Once after I had just started dating someone we met up with some other grad students for drinks first. One of the girls saw me and exclaimed, “You’re wearing makeup!”. (Foundation, light eyeliner and eyeshadow… maybe lip gloss? I was not made up for prom or anything).

      While it was awkward, I actually think I like that she registered what the difference was and commented on *that* rather than saying “You look pretty!” which would have had weird implications if given in the same startled tone.

    7. Hroethvitnir*

      I happen to look like a corpse when not wearing makeup

      I do think this is at least partially perception! I worked with a good friend who wore pretty dark eye-liner, and she *did* read as sickly when she stopped, because you were so used to increased contrast. After a couple of weeks it looks normal.

      I only really like drag or artistic makeup (wear zero day to day), but I have done more natural makeup and the way foundation does can you look “you but better” really reinforced to me how easily regular makeup wearing can make you dislike your bare face.

      1. allathian*

        I haven’t worn makeup in years, I toned it way down before the pandemic, basically only wearing foundation and maybe mascara, and quit wearing it when we were sent home and I haven’t seen the need to start wearing it again, for which my skin thanks me.

        I’ve never seen my mom wear makeup, and in my mid-teens my way to rebel and to establish my identity as apart from hers was to enthusiastically embrace makeup. For years I couldn’t even take out the trash with a bare face.

      2. kicking-k*

        I’d say it’s largely perception. A lot of people I know mostly online participated in that week of posting selfies of themselves without makeup and done hair, and to a person, they all looked perfectly fine. But I don’t see them enough WITH makeup to be habituated to how they look either way.

        As a person who only wears makeup very rarely so is used to the bare face, I often feel unsure if makeup for special occasions actually makes me look better or just… slightly different. I’m certainly not convinced enough to do it every day!

  12. MsM*

    Who wants to bet Rufus’s sudden “quitting” was because some other female-presenting coworker decided she did want to talk to HR about his issues with her “professionalism”?

    1. Madame Desmortes*

      I noticed that detail as well. I would not be at all surprised if something like this were the case, and if it is, it speaks well of Rufus’s reporting chain and/or the organization’s HR.

      OP, you don’t have to go to the gossip mill to find out what happened to Rufus; it’s enough to be relieved he’s gone. But if it helps you to keep this possibility in mind, go for it.

    2. Poison I.V. drip*

      My organization had an awful boss. Arrogant, stubborn, fixated on the wrong things, micromanaging, etc. Our turnover was very high as people ran away from him as soon as they could. Then one day, he was gone. Turns out he told a woman to dress “professionally” for a big upcoming meeting. She took it poorly and complained. He was gone after that, and it was like a cloud lifted. His removal was the best outcome for everyone, not just the woman who complained. Respect for women is often a bellwether indicator of someone’s overall level of human decency.

      1. CommanderBanana*

        Respect for women is often a bellwether indicator of someone’s overall level of human decency.

        ^^ THIS.

      2. Moose*

        You’re so right. People who don’t see women, who are half the population, as actual people, pretty much never stop at women. Not that it should matter, since misogyny by itself is bad, but if you treat women badly that doesn’t usually stay contained

    3. Sparkles McFadden*

      Yup. If it was happening to the LW, it was happening all over the place to multiple people.

    4. Petty Crocker*

      Yesssssss! The sudden departure is too on-the-nose for Rufus. OP wasn’t the only one he was jackwagoning.

    6. Ellis Bell*

      My money is on the table. I could possibly agree with OP’s assessment that he didn’t know and it was just clueless blundering if he wasn’t also described as “kind of a creep”. So the guy is 1) A well known creep, 2) Indicates that OP looks wrong on days when they aren’t wearing the “right” bra, 3) Doesn’t drop it or back down when OP points out the weirdness and vagueness of objecting so often to literally nothing specific 4) Actually laughs when OP says they’re not getting actionable feedback. This was never about getting OP to dress differently, it was all just a big creepy way of saying “I notice everything that goes on with your boobs and you can’t call me out on something I haven’t explicitly said”. He could easily have done the same thing to other employees, as creepy bosses like to be creepy as often as humanly possible.

      1. Observer*

        it was all just a big creepy way of saying “I notice everything that goes on with your boobs and you can’t call me out on something I haven’t explicitly said”.

        Exactly!

        I hope he was fired and is getting an honest reference.

  13. HugeTractsofLand*

    I’m just here to say that “jackwagon” is a wonderful phrase.

    Also, OP I’m so glad you’re in a better spot now! You were doing everything right (except maybe not escalating to HR), so this was truly a him-not-you issue.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      And I will say (as HR), whether or not escalating it to HR or Rufus’s boss would’ve been effective depends largely on those people. Not all HR departments are created equal and for some reason dress code conversations bring out the worst in some people.

    2. allathian*

      The LW has commented (as BinderLW) elsewhere on this post that they had no on-site HR. Asking for a second opinion on whether your clothes “look professional” is easier if you can see HR in person.

  14. Czech Mate*

    That is so incredibly creepy on so many levels. Honestly, this is the kind of thing you should bring to HR and/or your boss’ boss right away. The nonbinary part of it aside, was he also telling cis women with small breasts that they didn’t look professional? Was he promoting folks with large breasts because he believed they were “more professional”?

    If nothing else, this means that he was either consciously or unconsciously starting at your chest, making a mental note of what he saw, and then making a determination about your professionalism as a result. That’s so creepy and 100% workplace harassment. Any reasonable manager/HR professional would be appalled.

    1. Observer*

      was he also telling cis women with small breasts that they didn’t look professional?

      I certainly would not bet against it.

      this means that he was either consciously or unconsciously starting at your chest, making a mental note of what he saw,

      Oh, it was conscious. That’s why he laughed when told that he was giving non-actionable feedback.

  15. Tom R*

    This is sexual harassment and Rufus should be severely disciplined or even fired (if he hasn’t already been). Rufus presumably thinks LW is a woman and is therefore only complaining when LW’s breasts are less visible, the transphobic discrimination is an additional problem that should definitely be taken into account, but this should be treated as such

    1. ThatGirl*

      My interpretation is like … “casual” might be jeans, graphic tee, sneakers, hoodie; smart or snappy casual would be dark jeans, plain tee/structured top, boots or loafers, cardigan or vest. That kind of thing. More comfortable/casual clothes but with a little more attention to accessories or structure of clothes.

    2. NaoNao*

      It’s polished/smart casual. Typically it means only trouser jeans with no contrast stitching or other fashion details like distressing (if any jeans are allowed), no rubber soled or canvas shoes (like Toms, Danskos or sneakers), and collared shirts or woven blouses/pop over shirts/sweaters. Clothing that covers the body continuously from collarbone to knees, no shorts, no club-wear or athletic-wear, no graphic/slogan tees, no sweatshirts or hoodies, no leggings as pants, no sweatpants/joggers, no flip flops or shower slides.

      1. Jezebella*

        No *Danskos*?? I’m a lil flabbergasted at that. They’re perfectly nice leather clogs. They’re also like the House Brand of art historians everywhere – they’re black or brown and look good with professional attire, but you can walk around a museum all day comfortably. I wouldn’t even begin to put them in the same category as Toms.

        1. not nice, don't care*

          There are Dansko styles with plenty of color and pattern, not that it should matter anyway, but they are definitely not all black/brown and leather.

          1. Jezebella*

            Well, yes, but banning Danskos in general as too casual, like one of those floppy Toms shoes, seems bizarre to me.

        2. BinderLW*

          I’m getting a little emotional reading all these replies, but your full-throated defense of Dansko’s made me laugh out loud. That was not what I was expecting in this comment section.

      2. Rain, Disappointing Australian (formerly Lucien Nova)*

        Huh. So now I know the proper term for what I wear to functions not requiring anything actually formal. Thank you NaoNao!

        1. Nina*

          In New Zealand it’s called ‘smart casual’ or ‘fancy casual’ usually so if you’re Australian you might have heard it called that too?

  17. I should really pick a name*

    While I don’t hold Rufus in high regard for a number of reasons, I will be fair and say I don’t think he did this on purpose. I think he just preferred the way I looked some days and didn’t bother to question what, specifically, he liked

    Please don’t go out of your way to give him grace.

    He was saying you looked unprofessional when your breasts were less prominent.
    Not different. Unprofessional.
    “This turns me on” should not be a factor in determining if an outfit is professional or not.

    1. Elle*

      I think they meant simply that he didn’t identify them as NB and then set out to do transphobic harassment. It’s more of a garden variety “women need to look how I think they should.” No grace for this guy, only stupidity.

      1. Observer*

        I think you are right about what they meant. But still more grace than he deserves. He probably was not being transphobic but he was being a jerk and he was definitely being sexist. He knew that the LW’s clothing was in line with the dress code. He also knew what was bothering him – it’s very different than the makeup think the LW uses as an example. The fact that he never mentioned her specific body parts does not change the fact that he knew that it was the look of her body not the clothes that he had a problem with. And that’s why he laughed.

  18. Eleanor Tilney*

    Rufus is such a weirdo!

    The thoughtless is what gets me. A complete lack of curiosity about his own patterns.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I’ll never understand how people can lack such self-awareness. Especially since he was asked to specify and couldn’t – that’s the moment where you think critically.

      1. Observer*

        The thing is that I don’t think it’s really lack of “self awareness.” He knew what was bothering him, and he did not think it’s a problem.

    2. HonorBox*

      I don’t think it was a lack of curiosity. I think he knew what he was focused on. That he said it is thoughtless and problematic. He’s just a creep.

  19. HonorBox*

    I can’t imagine that a company’s dress code, regardless of how buttoned up or how casual, specifies anything about the things we wear under our clothes. Sure, you can ensure undergarments are UNDER clothing and ask that things aren’t visible. But Rufus seemed very tuned in to the LW wearing an underwire bra. Was he equally as concerned that John down the hall was wearing more professional looking when he was in boxers or briefs? Or boxer briefs? Did anyone else get a talk from Rufus when wearing a sports bra, or another non-underwire undergarment? Or was it solely focused on the LW, too?

    I think a trip to HR, if they were even remotely helpful, would have been in order. “Rufus gives me feedback about my dress, but only does so when I’m not wearing a particular kind of undergarment. He states that it is unprofessional, but cannot tell me exactly what I’m doing wrong. And he’s particularly focused on my chest, which is sexual harassment.”

    1. Ellis Bell*

      I don’t think he ever intended to out loud object to OP’s underwear, but probably only because it’s definitely not a company dress code rule. I think he simply read OP as femme and was hoping to press on those pre installed buttons which make women feel they have to live up to beauty standards to be considered “professional”. As a guy, he gets to set those standards in his mind.

    2. Coverage Associate*

      Yeah, I would have raised it to HR as “the pattern is about what undergarments I wear, but they are never visible and all fit properly, so…” and left out underwire v other types of bras, unless HR needed the clarification.

  20. Jonathan MacKay*

    Not exactly relevant, but it’s a funny story worth sharing on the subject of professional clothing.

    I’m a warehouse coordinator, so my typical work clothes are jeans and t-shirts that wouldn’t be out of place on Sheldon Cooper. A few weeks ago, I came into work wearing a sweater, and I had to tell my manager that I had to adjust my current tentative vacation plans (was going to be writing a scheduled exam which later turned out to be better off delayed)

    Except the way I phrased it was “I am not going to be writing the exam this round, but I still want to take the time off”. I had a bit of a cold, so my voice sounded a little graver than I thought.

    Apparently, I freaked her out into thinking something serious had happened.

    Either way – what’s ‘professional’ clearly varies by work place, and I’d like to think I’d have words with any manager acting like this with a coworker!

  22. Dawn*

    Also I hope that you’re able to wear your binder every day (if you want to) and feeling much better about yourself now that this jackass is gone!

    Having supportive management really makes all the difference.

  23. Spicy Tuna*

    EWW, this is gross. FTR, I am a very small chested cis woman. I always wear a sports bra! I don’t need “support” and anything A cup or below comes with padding. I like my IBTs, thank you very much! Sports bras make for a smooth silhouette. Boobs are nobody’s business but their owners’!

  24. Seashell*

    Rufus definitely sounds like a jerk and it’s entirely possible that he preferred obvious breasts, but I wonder if he had it in his head that anything that isn’t form-fitting isn’t professional.

  25. Annnonn*

    As an almost-straight man, I feel confident that Rufus knew precisely what the difference was between your “professional” and “unprofessional” outfits. Most of us men are very good at pinpointing the specific body features we find appealing.

    1. mreasy*

      Yeah I actually think Rufus knew exactly what the difference was. He just wouldn’t say it out loud, because he knew that wouldn’t fly. But he was trying to tell OP that their breasts needed to be prominent in order to be dressed appropriately for work. Because that is what Rufus seems to think. Or at least, want.

      1. Dawn*

        It’s probably also worth noting that I (a queer/trans person with queer/trans friends) have absolutely seen, time and again, men react really weirdly to femme-featured people dressing masc or androgynous. It is 100% a thing that happens and might not have anything to do with wanting breasts to be displayed specifically, so much as just a discomfort with people they read as femme playing down those traits.

        To be clear, that’s not better! It pushes it over the line from garden-variety grossness to trans/queerphobia. But absent other facts, that would be more in lines of my suspicions of what’s going on here: less “breasts need to be prominent” and more “queer/trans people make me uncomfortable when they make it visible.”

        1. not nice, don't care*

          I have found that a not-insignificant number of men react with rage in the face of any body part/presentation ambiguity. Their inability to immediately visually categorize a person sends them over the edge, sometimes into violence, as I have personally experienced.

          1. Dawn*

            I’m very, very sorry to hear that you’ve experienced violence over this. But it is definitely illustrative of the point.

        2. mreasy*

          Yeah it’s bad either way, but the fact that OP’s clothing was identical, just once with bra and once with binder, makes me think this is straight up Rufus trying to say “it is important that you make your body pleasing to look at, to succeed in the workplace.” But it’s a good point about another way Rufus could be terrible! Whynotboth dot gif, truly

        3. BinderLW*

          I think it was more this. I had stopped shaving my legs, too. I wore long pants so it wasn’t noticeable, but he did see it one day when I was sitting and my trouser legs rode up. He did comment on it.

          I think he was trying to tell me not to be visibly gender non-conforming at work. The binder was his line, apparently.

          1. allathian*

            The more you clarify, the worse it gets. Clearly, his claim that you looked unprofessional with a flatter chest was the worst comment he made, but the comment about your leg hair only confirms that he knew exactly what he was doing and was just smart enough not to say it out loud in so many words.

            I don’t think he deserves any grace at all from you, he’s a creep and a jerk.

    2. Elle*

      Agree. He knew that the difference was relating to their chest. IMO, that’s why it doesn’t make sense to let people have the benefit of the doubt in situations like this. Say the obvious thing out loud.

  26. 1-800-BrownCow*

    Rufus is a jerk (putting it mildly).

    For once, I disagree with one thing Alison said: Also, I’m guessing you wouldn’t have gotten this feedback if you were just naturally flatter-chested and appeared that way every day…

    I mean maybe Rufus wouldn’t have given feedback, but I have a weird feeling he might hint to naturally flat-chested females as to what they should wear to appear more chesty. He seems to have a weird fixation on chest-size. Ugh.

    Glad you don’t work for him anymore. And I hope he has the day he deserves!!

    1. Bast*

      I wonder if Rufus has an unconscious bias toward feminine appearing women (or what he in his mind, assigns to be female). It’s interesting that you think that Rufus would not discriminate against someone with a naturally flatter chest; I wondered that if Rufus were presented with 2 female appearing people of roughly the same age, wearing the same outfit, but one were more feminine in appearance and one more masculine or androgenous, that Rufus would find the more feminine one more “professional” without being able to say why. This situation reminded me quite a bit of the letters where larger folks are pegged for being “sloppy” and/or “unprofessional” but when asked to specify HOW they are unprofessional or sloppy in appearance, the manager in question often can’t. Of course, it’s solely because they in a larger body, and the same thing that is okay on a smaller person suddenly is sloppy in them, and since it’s an unconscious bias the manager (typically) doesn’t even realize this is the case.

      1. 1-800-BrownCow*

        I didn’t say that I think Rufus would not discriminate against someone naturally flat-chested. That was Alison’s statement I was quoting and I was disagreeing with her. I actually do think Rufus is the type to discriminate against any female appearing person with a flatter chest.

  27. Everdene*

    If I were in OPs office and in that time machine too I’d be really interested to do an experiment on Rufus’ professional ideals*. I would, over the course of a few weeks, wear the same outfit with a range of different undergarments and record his comments on each. From binders to sports bras to no padding to underwired to full on push up/Wonderbras- at what point would my boobs move from professional to unprofessional? A photo diary along with contemporaneous notes would be very illuminating when shared with HR.

    *To be very clear, I wouldn’t want OP to do this experiment and make themselves uncomfortable. Or anyone else really, I’d do it for science and to get Rufus his comeuppance.

    1. RVA Cat*

      My inner chaos goblin wants this experiment to include a man with…well, remember the airport security scene from This Is Spinal Tap?

  28. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    There are times I wish we could just remove and swap out the bits of us that others deem ‘offensive’ or ‘unprofessional’. Just change them like you do clothes. Imagine the look on guys like his faces when we can walk into the bogs and just detach our forward facing attributes and replace them with a smaller/larger/don’t replace them at all size!

    He was an ass. Any man who stares at someone’s chest and makes comments about how it’s not professional is an ass.

    1. Dawn*

      Speaking as a trans lady, I, too, wish I could just swap out my offensive bits. But maybe for slightly different reasons.

      Really looking forward to the cybernetic dystopia.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

        Bring on the cyborgs! I’m disabled so if we had the technology to load ourselves into bodies that actually worked and had the right gendered bits for us (or none gendered at all) I’d be over the moon!

        Bet guys like him would complain. Then again they’ve been complaining for centuries but it’s not their world anymore. We don’t need them and they are PISSED.

        1. Dawn*

          I also have a disability (I’m a type 1 diabetic) and I’m fond of referring to my blood glucose sensors as “part of my ongoing cyborging” – especially since I can get the results right on my watch.

          I still don’t have an insulin pump but I’m sure at some point they will improve the technology such that it is more appealing to me.

      2. metadata minion*

        Hah, yes, I can’t wait for the trans body swap machine! I’m sure some nice trans gal would like these breasts that I was inconveniently issued.

        2. Azure Jane Lunatic*

          Same! My NB ass has a K-cup. I’m low-key thinking about getting a mold made of my current in-bra attributes, and make prosthetics that will fit my current bras for those times I want my current silhouette. With hollow centers, to control the weight … and to make POCKETS.

  29. A*

    Hey Alison, why did you misgender the letter writer in your response? (“…her figure looks less pleasing to me today”). The LW did not share their pronouns and assuming she/her is not a good default. Seems entirely unnecessary and rude especially to someone who is writing in about a gender-related issue.

    1. Sciencer*

      OP made it clear in the letter that they were presenting as female in the workplace, so Rufus’s thoughts *would* use she/her pronouns.

      1. Unkempt Flatware*

        And also, a simple, “hey Alison, I think you misgendered OP in paragraph 2 sentence 3” is a better and kinder correction. She deserves for us to assume positive intent rather than a lecture from her readers.

    2. Dawn*

      Many nonbinary folks still use binary pronouns, usually non-exclusively but not always. I’d actually guess that this LW had email signature pronouns, or included pronouns in the email (which got edited for publishing) or that AAM would ask if it were unclear.

      I mean, I might be off-base here! But you’re right, making assumptions is not a good default stance.

    3. Finn (any pronouns okay)*

      Alison typically uses “she/her” when the pronouns are unclear, though I agree it’s possibly not the ideal choice in this letter.

    4. Observer*

      (“…her figure looks less pleasing to me today”)

      That’s is Alison’s take on *Rufus’* thought process. Do you think that there is the *slightest* chance that Rufus thought “they”? I don’t. I think that he *absolutely* thought “she”. And if he had said it out loud and you tried to correct him, he’d tell you to knock it off and stop being “woke”, a “snowflake”, and / or utterly ignorant of grammar.

      1. Elsajeni*

        I don’t really think that’s better! We’ve had a few posts recently where Alison has stepped in in the comments to say “you don’t need to repeat bigoted comments you’ve heard other people make”; I think it’s similarly inappropriate to quote what you imagine a bigoted person is thinking, or misgender the person you’re talking to because you’re quoting what you imagine their transphobic colleague would have said.

        (That said, I do also note Dawn’s comment above, and I know that Alison often has information about LWs from their email addresses or signatures that commenters don’t get to see; it may be that this isn’t misgendering the OP at all. I know some people don’t like to publicly state their pronouns, but especially when a letter is *about* an issue of gender identity, I sometimes think it would be nice to note the writer’s pronouns somewhere in the post if they’ve shared them — both to avoid accidental misgendering from commenters, and to avoid threads derailing into arguments about whether a previous commenter misgendered someone!)

  30. Sciencer*

    I have a number of students working for me right now who are in varying stages/places of exploring gender expression and identity. They were having a loud conversation commiserating about binders in my office one day, and until that moment it had never occurred to me that any of them have ever worn them. It was clear from their conversation that some of them wear the binder some days and not others. I have never, ever noticed or even had a moment’s pause in wondering about their clothes.

    I genuinely can’t understand how this man could have been unaware of what he was doing & implying with these comments… I feel like he must have been actively and intentionally staring at OP’s chest in order to notice this difference so frequently.

    Gross.

    1. mreasy*

      Yeah I (straight cis lady) could recall the chest size of exactly 2 of my colleagues. One is a close friend of over 20 years. One is an NB femme who often dresses with cleavage. Everyone else is just like…idk a face and some rectangles beneath in my mind’s eye, and I feel that’s way more normal than Rufus noticing the difference in the same outfit. The same outfit!!!!

      1. Moose*

        Yeah, like even with my friends, I only ever notice chest size in the context of “I think she might like this shirt/dress style.” Intentionally making note of someone’s boob size is weird. If you happen to remember it’s whatever, just don’t use that information!

    2. Slow Gin Lizz*

      I don’t pay attention to breast size either. My neighbor, in her 30s, had breast cancer before I met her, and it wasn’t until at least a year later that I realized she was pretty flat chested and maybe had had mastectomies. I haven’t asked, and I rarely think about it.

      It’s weird, though, how much cis-het men think about breasts, though, isn’t it? (I don’t know as much about cis lesbians; I always figured that since they had easy access to their own breasts they were not quite as impressed by other ones but I don’t actually know, lol.)

  31. Elizabeth the Ginger*

    EVEN IF we have the most generous explanation for Rufus and assume that he couldn’t consciously pinpoint, even in his own brain, what he deemed “unprofessional” about OP’s appearance, he proved himself to be a terrible manager with his vague feedback. Imagine if a manager sent your work back to you frequently with the feedback “This report isn’t good enough” and never elaborated, even when asked, about what they wanted changed.

    But I think Rufus did know, in his head, exactly what he objected to about OP’s appearance, and realized he couldn’t say it out loud. What a troglodyte.

    1. mreasy*

      I had managers who told me other colleagues had made some complaints about it being difficult to work with me, which is why I didn’t get a raise in 3 years. They point blank refused give me even hypothetical, anonymized examples of the problem. Just “fix your attitude.” Then shocked pikachu face when I quit of course!!!

  32. Slow Gin Lizz*

    Oh hey, now we know where that manager who commented on his pregnant employee’s clothing went! And so glad he’s gone from here too! (At least, I hope it’s the same guy b/c I don’t want to think there are two of him out there. Even though I know better.)

  33. Lab Snep*

    Before I knew what Non Binary, Transgender and dysphoria were, I definitely had severe dysphoria.

    I wore masculine clothes, or casual styles because I hated “Dressing my gender” (oh, past snep. You were so close).

    I got a job and looked to the men for cues for dressing, and I wore similar styles to them only to be told I needed to “Dress more professionally” and then they pointed at the very feminine women.

    It wad gross.

    I swore I would never work in an office again.

    About 5 or 6 years later, thanks to the internet, I got the language I needed and then started transitioning about 7 years ago.

  34. Raida*

    “Hey, I’ve made notes on when you do and don’t have complaints about my outfits.
    Turns out it’s just my breasts you’re looking at. Apparently bigger, perkier breasts are more professional to you. Hah.
    So let’s stop with the digs about my outfits, because let’s be clear, you’re complaining my tits aren’t bigger on those days.”

    but I’m a total bastard, I’ll happily make it clear “I see you looking” when I feel it’s useful. And everyone knows that’s a HR issue waiting to happen if they don’t stop

  35. Jopestus*

    I have to admit that not being a native in english bit me a bit into face on this. I was majorly confused why someone would wear office equipment meant to hold paper and then complain when someone says it is not professional for a while in there.

    Hey, I learnt a new meaning for a word today.

  36. ElliottRook*

    Hi, Alison, I am also nonbinary with dysphoria around this part of my body, and having it referred to as “boobs” in your answer is uncomfortable–I know that parts are parts, but referring to it as “chest” in this case would be more gender-neutral and far less likely to be triggering for nonbinary people searching the archives in the future if this issue comes up for them.

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