I want to ask out our manager, my coworker sucks at his job, and more

by Alison Green on November 4, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. How can I ask out our general manager?

How do I get ahold of someone who works in the offices where I work to ask them out? Her position is GM. I’m intending to ask her if she’d like to go for a coffee or walk on the beach one day after work just to get to know each other. I’d also like to invite her out for lunch for my birthday, which falls on a Sunday in December.

I work in the warehouse downstairs. She works in the offices upstairs when office protocol and company policy won’t let me ask her these questions. I do see her now and then in the carpark when I’m unloading trucks, but she goes straight upstairs through the main building entrance while I’m unloading trucks at the loading area, which is away from the office carparking area.

I’d also like to ask her if there’s a chance of adding her on messenger and Facebook.

What should I do? I’m thinking wait until I see her next in the carport and talk to her before she goes upstairs to the office. I shall never forget the smile on her face when I met her when she was introduced to each worker in the warehouse.

Please do not ask this woman out. She’s there to do her job, it doesn’t sound like you have any reason to believe she has romantic feelings toward you (or even anything more than professional acquaintance feelings), and your office policy prohibits it. She can’t date someone in her chain of command and, even if you’re not in her chain of command (although if she’s the GM, you probably are), she’s there to do her job, not to be hit on by coworkers. It would be different if you didn’t have the chain of command issues and she was sending active signals that she returned your interest.

Active signals that the person returns your interest are an absolute prerequisite for asking out anyone at work. (Smiling at you doesn’t meet that bar; that’s normal professional warmth when being introduced.)

2. My coworker sucks at his job and I rely on him for support

I have been struggling with my coworker, “John,” for over a year. He provides targeted support for a project that I manage and I communicate with him directly regarding associated tasks. I do not manage him, but am senior to him.

Issues include:
• Poor email management. While he occasionally responds immediately, he most often doesn’t acknowledge or reply to my emails at all. When reminded (repeatedly) of outstanding items, he often cannot locate the information sent or only partially responds
• Failure to take responsibility for tasks I have handed off. This includes me having to chase him for weeks for basic requests, having to routinely resend “lost” information, and requiring extensive editing of sloppy work due to poor attention to detail and failure to incorporate all communicated information.
• Refusal to allow for sufficient review time, despite repeated requests. For example, I asked for three business days to review a biannual report. The distribution date is set months in advance so it is a matter of time management on his part. He provided five business hours for review, failed to incorporate any of the information I sent three weeks prior, and the overall quality was poor.

I initially thought there might be a mismatch in communication styles so I have tried other approaches — instant messaging, phone calls, and stopping by his office. I have also offered to use other platforms, like Teams, and even mild shaming by asking about outstanding items in small group meetings. After the biannual report, I scheduled a one-on-one meeting and had a candid and direct conversation about the issues outlined here (all of which had been previously addressed). I also invited him to give me feedback. It was a professional and respectful conversation. He responded cheerfully and acknowledged the issues. Nothing changed in a meaningful way.

John and I are both managed by Jane. Jane has been my manager for five years and I have a lot of respect for her. She has confirmed that everything I have asked from John is reasonable and within his responsibilities. She acknowledges that other team members have given her similar feedback, though she seems pleased with his performance in other areas of his work. She has spoken to John more than once about these issues and is aware that performance has not improved.

I have successfully worked with a variety of personality types and varying levels of competence but I’m frankly baffled by this situation. I would love to take a huge step back but do not know how to do so without failing the client by allowing late, incomplete, incorrect, and sloppy work to go out. It is exhausting to have to fight for the smallest thing and I find myself stewing over this dynamic. Despite how this letter sounds, a relatively small amount of my day-to-day work should involve John and I am spending a disproportionate amount of time and energy managing this situation.

You need to go back to Jane and pose this question to her, because it’s her job to handle it. You were right to try what you’ve tried, but at this point you’ve exhausted your options and if it’s going to get resolved, it’s going to require Jane’s involvement.

Lay out for her everything you’ve tried and use the words you ended your letter with — “I am spending a disproportionate amount of time and energy managing this situation.” Then say, “I’m at the limits of what I can do on my own to resolve this, and I’m at the point where I need your help. How do you want me to handle this?”

Also, start cc’ing Jane on messages to John, especially anything reminding him that you haven’t heard from him, a deadline has been missed, or his work is missing key elements, so that she’s seeing exactly how often it’s happening and is pulled into it each time, which should make it harder for her to ignore.

3. Saying no to a job opening because of moral concerns

I am in the throes of an expansive job search and thus am networking quite broadly. Several times now, I’ve avoided conversations about the reason I was uninterested in a particular job so as not to offend or create a negative interaction.

What is the proper way to politely decline these suggestions without a long explanation of “why” while maintaining the positive relationship?

For example, it has been suggested that I work for the Department of Corrections or become a police officer and I have many reasons those aren’t the right job for me. I’ve also been introduced to people who work for a marketing agency that produces provocative political ads. Even if I was on the same “side” as that agency, I would still not want those jobs. These examples have been suggested by neighbors who I see regularly and I want to keep a friendly relationship.

A few options, depending on what you feel like:

  • “Thanks, I’ll check them out.” (That doesn’t obligate you to do anything more with it and if they follow up, you can say, “That kind of work isn’t a great match for me, but thanks for thinking about me.”)
  • “That’s not a path I’m interested in, but thank you!”
  • “I don’t think that’s the right match for me, but thank you.”
  • “Interesting, I’m not sure that’s for me but I’ll think about it.”

Ideally, follow any of these with a quick topic change.

4. Can a referral “save” my application after I’ve been rejected?

I was the victim of a layoff about a year ago, and I’ve been job searching since then in a tough market. Whenever I see an opportunity that I think would be a good fit, I first apply through the company’s official portal, then I reach out to anyone in my network who may be connected with that company/team. However, it can take a little time to pull the connection levers, between reaching out to someone I may not have spoken with in years and asking them, in turn, to connect me with someone in that company who they may not know very well.

Several times now, I’ve been in the process of trying to leverage connections when I received an automated rejection email for that position. Can an internal endorsement or referral that arrives after the ATS may have already rejected me “save” my application and put me back into contention?

Potentially. It’s unlikely to save your application if you’re not a strong candidate, but it’s more likely if you’re clearly very qualified and someone looks at the application with new eyes and realizes that (for example, if HR is rejecting people they shouldn’t reject because they don’t have a nuanced understanding of what the hiring manager is looking for) or if one of the people in that chain of contacts has a lot of influence.

5. How to apply for a job (internally) that I am not sure is even open

I am an office clerk at a law firm and heard from one of the legal assistants that they’ll be moving to a different internal position early next year. (They mentioned they were taking training and I asked what it was for, and then they told me they’re getting the position because the current person is retiring.)

I am not sure if the firm is even going to hire for their assistant position, but I’d love to throw my hat in the ring. I’d love the pay bump and hybrid options, and I have an MLIS degree that I’d love to put to good use.

Problem is, I don’t know if this assistant moving is even public knowledge beyond the people in the department they are moving to. I was told (literally) quietly, so I get the vibe most people don’t know. And again, I’m not even sure if they’re looking to replace this assistant at all, or if I have a shot at it. I also have not been here that long (less than a year), but when I had my three-month check-in several months ago, my boss told me I could let her know if I was interested in any positions at the firm, because she assumed I didn’t want to be a clerk here forever. And I know a few people have moved to other jobs in this firm, so I at least know internal transfers are A Thing here.

But I need to know how to ask, and who to ask. And I’d also not like a courtesy interview — so if they don’t think I’d have a chance, I want to know right away, not just get an interview because I work here. I’ve been burned by courtesy interviews in the past, not knowing they were a courtesy, and honestly that hurt worse than not getting the position.

Go back to the assistant who told you they’re moving and ask if they know whether the firm plans to fill the job they’re leaving because you’d be interested in applying if they do. They will probably know but if they don’t, ask them whether it’s okay for you to ask their manager about it (it almost certainly will be since their manager surely knows they’re transferring, but you can ask to be sure).

And then you’d talk to the manager for that position and say you understand Jane is transferring and you’d love to be considered as a replacement, and ask what the next steps are. As part of that conversation you can ask about the profile of candidates they’re looking for, and you can describe a little about your background and ask if it makes sense to throw your hat in the ring. But beyond that, you can’t really prevent the possibility of a courtesy interview; there’s always a chance of that when you apply internally and it’s better to find a way to be okay with that than to search for a way to preclude it altogether.

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{ 587 comments }

{ 587 comments… read them below }

  1. Six Feldspar*

    The first seven words of this page’s title are a horror story all on their own!

    (On a more helpful note – OP1, absolutely do not ask out the GM or anyone who manages you! If they say no then it’s going to make for a severely awkward workplace, and if they say yes it’s showing that they have bad professional judgement no matter how much attraction there might be. There are plenty of stories here showing why dating managers never goes well professionally or socially…)

    1. Aphrodite*

      I admit my hair stood up upon reading that first paragraph of the first post. It was as horrifying to me as the single sentence in the book Lolita that I have never (unfortunately) been able to forget.

      OP#1, drop this notion you have at once and altogether. You are having fantasies far beyond a simple coffee. And you are making yourself sound scary as hell.

      1. Six Feldspar*

        I’m looking at it more through a career horror story than a personal one (other people below are highlighting how this comes off very creepy)… Anyone who thinks it’s a good idea to ask out their own GM isn’t exactly setting themself up for a glorious career at this company or a good reference if they suddenly leave…

      3. DJ Abbott*

        I don’t know if I would say it’s scary. It sounds like OP is young and very inexperienced with how workplaces operate. They see someone they‘re attracted to and want to ask them out, and don’t realize all the reasons they shouldn’t. It’s good that they wrote in for advice before they did it.

        1. Ginnie*

          It’s interesting that you assume they are young – my own experience with this has all been with older men, who are/should be well aware of how things work but just want to be able to indulge their egos nonetheless, and my reading was that this was another of the same. Younger men have usually been more self-aware than this.

          1. Eldritch Office Worker*

            I’ve encountered both, I just find the motivation is different. With younger guys it’s ignorance, typically with older guys it’s entitlement.

        2. ExpertExpat*

          To me, it’s the bit where he says “I shall never forget the smile on her face when I met her when she was introduced to each worker in the warehouse” that made me recoil.

          Of course she smiled – she was being introduced to people. Guys reading more into mundane social interactions are the start of a lot of very bad stories.

          1. MsM*

            Yeah, this doesn’t read “too young to know better” to me (although that would also indicate OP is too young to be working, period); it’s giving off “I don’t understand boundaries and I don’t particularly care to learn.”

            1. DJ Abbott*

              I was just as clueless when I was young, and I was old enough to work. If OP is only shortly out of high school, they could easily be this clueless. Again, I was. Let’s not assume the worst because OP is young and has a crush. It happens.

              1. not nice, don't care*

                Age is no barrier to being a creep. And/or dangerous. Let’s not splain away the commentariat’s lived experience.

                1. Chickadee*

                  When I was in college, a high schooler asked for my number when I was pumping gas, and it creeped me out so badly that I never returned to that gas station. LW1’s plan is creepy regardless of his age or intent.

              2. Learn ALL the things*

                The thins is, you don’t have to have crappy intentions to be perceived as creepy. I get that you want to give this guy the benefit of the doubt that he’s not trying to be a creep. But to the women who will experience his behavior, it FEELS incredibly creepy. He may be a nice but naive guy who doesn’t know better, or he might be an abrasive jerk who just doesn’t care about women’s autonomy. That’s the math that every woman has to do when a clueless man puts her in this situation.

                In my opinion, it’s more important to stop men from making women feel this way than it is to prevent them from feeling bad when women don’t know if they’re creeps or not.

                1. DJ Abbott*

                  I agree men of any age should not put women in this situation. I’m trying to help him do better as I wish someone had helped me. (BTW, I’m a woman.)

                2. MigraineMonth*

                  THANK YOU!

                  Creepy behavior *isn’t about intentions*, it’s about the effect. Whether you’re crossing boundaries and setting off red flags because you’re entitled or ignorant, your behavior is alarming.

                  (Note: the type of creepy we’re talking about here isn’t about not being able to read social cues or being on the spectrum, either. If someone tells you to back off and you fully do without justification or whining, you’re not being creepy any more. The creepiest people I know have excellent social skills and use them to manipulate others into situations they wouldn’t have consented to.)

              3. Jessica*

                “Let’s ignore the effect that men treating workplaces as their own private sex hunting preserves has on women’s careers, health, and well-being, because heaven FORBID we ever focus on the impact of a man’s behavior instead of the non-malicious intentions he MIGHT, in my imagination, have had.”

              4. Rainy*

                He’s making elaborate plans to ambush a woman in a parking lot because she smiled at him once in a group setting.

                I don’t care what age someone is, that’s creepy.

                2. Princess Sparklepony*

                  Exactly! And smiled at him in a professional setting. Is she supposed to frown when meeting people?

              5. Lenora Rose*

                IF OP is young. IF.

                I will grant I would assume a clueless young person asking this question, while he’d STILL deserve us all assuming the worst in *this* moment, does have the chance to grow into a better person.

                If so, some future partner will benefit from Alison giving him strong sage advice now. It doesn’t mean bad behaviour now would have to be tolerated for the sake of that future, and it doesn’t change the advice, it just means they might get a do-over in a new location with a new person, when they’re 30 or so and have (hopefully) figured out that a woman smiling professionally is not a sign of anything.

                But … there’s no proof they’re young. And I do not trust a 50 year old or 60 year old still doing this to learn better in time to benefit anyone.

          2. FricketyFrack*

            That sentence made me say, out loud (though thankfully with my office door shut), “What in the fan fiction?” This dude needs to rein it way, waaaay in. One smile and he’s out here planning their wedding. Reminds me of my customer service days when a nearly-30 year old guy with a kid was convinced 18 year old me was definitely into him because I was nice when I bagged his groceries and then we had to have an incredibly awkward conversation in the parking lot.

            1. goddessoftransitory*

              It astounds me to no end how many normal seeming/acting men, who have existed in society for decades and in theory understand how to function in it, can simply “decide” that a normal and polite transaction signals “interest” because they DECIDE it does.

          3. carrot cake*

            Eh, I read the “shall” comment as a compliment of her smile generally rather than a perceived personal secret message.

          4. Strive to Excel*

            I read that more as “I took one look at her and was immediately smitten” than “I’m seeing a personal connection”. That doesn’t make this any less of a Bad Idea.

          6. goddessoftransitory*

            To me that read either as a very young man or an older one who is freshly divorced and has been out of the dating game for decades. Either way, the level of fantasy and projection they’ve troweled onto a meet ‘n great is–a LOT.

        3. Observer*

          It’s good that they wrote in for advice before they did it.

          Yes, it’s good that they asked. But that’s the only good ting here.

          The first problem is that they are building a fantasy land based on absolutely nothing. I mean, yes she smiled at him – when she smiled at everyone on being introduced to all of the staff. That’s way more than being inexperienced in the way the workplace works. And on top of that, he’s not starting with a low key “coffee at lunch, maybe?” but a romantic outing or something predicated on a close relationship.

          Yes, it’s a career limiting move. But it’s based on much more fundamental issues.

          1. Meep*

            Yeah. I feel like too many people defending this as just misunderstood are glossing over the fact he is asking her to spend his birthday with him. At best, it comes off as guilt-trippy. At worse, it is a clear indication that this guy builds relationships in his head and has no meaningful relationship with real life human beings. I mean, this isn’t a harmless coffee date. This is inviting a stranger to your birthday party where the only other person there is yourself!

            1. Lils*

              And how much do you want to bet he thinks it would be a good idea to surprise his date with the fact that it’s his birthday. Fun fact: no woman likes surprises of this nature. Or when you “surprise” invite your parents along for a first day (ask me how I know).

              2. Meep*

                OMG. Some guy actually did that? That is next level co-dependent.

                And I say this as someone who’s mother-in-law made her son the designated driver so she could introduce her youngest son (who is 28) to the birthday girl’s 21-year-old daughter. Of course, the daughter bailed on her own mother’s party. Why do you ask?

          2. Jessica*

            He didn’t even write in asking whether he should do this or not, just HOW to do it.

            And yeah:

            Men: a total stranger smiled at me, which means she wants to shtup me! I’ll proceed with that assumption and get violently angry when she says no!

            Also men: why don’t women smile more?

            The male bias toward false positives puts us in a real Catch-22. It’s detrimental for us to appear friendly AND detrimental for us not to appear friendly.

              1. Princess Sparklepony*

                I really want a like button.

                The bear seems very safe when you look around the group of men…

        4. anotherfan*

          the one time it happened to me, it was a middle-aged man — I smile and nod at people when I pass them in the halls, with no exceptions for GMs or maintenance staff; one of the latter approached me at one time to ask me out as we passed in the halls … out of the blue. I pointed at my wedding ring, said I was happily married, explained I had 3 kids and said I wasn’t interested but … wow. Yeah, some people are just clueless.

          1. Margaret Cavendish*

            I once had that happen where the man in question was a third party! My colleague Ross was a peer – same title, we sat next to each other, worked together all the time. One day we were out and bumped into Chandler, who did a similar job in another department – Ross and I both knew him well enough to say hi, but neither of us had worked with him directly.

            We stopped and chatted for a minute, then went on about our days. And Ross was absolutely dumbfounded. “Wow, your face just lit up when you saw Chandler, and you greeted him like a long lost friend! Do you (ahem) know each other really well?” Um, no, I just said hi like a normal person, the way most people greet most of their colleagues most of the time. Did you think I was flirting with him just because I smiled at him? Honestly.

            1. Kristi*

              A friend of my fathers’ hit on me the day of my father’s funeral. He sent me a message that evening commenting on how attractive I looked while giving the eulogy, and said he would always remember how I smiled when we first met. I’d been about 15 at the time. (He’d been married, but his wife had died in the intervening decades…)

              5. JitzGirl614*

                I was hit on at my grandmother’s funeral. Apparently my grief made me “stunningly attractive”.

                1. goddessoftransitory*

                  Who, in God’s name, would A) think this, B) SAY THIS, and C) expect a positive response instead of a shoe in the face?

              6. Gaia Madre*

                I’m sorry Kristi. My uncle hit on me at my father’s funeral. Horrifying – I froze, then walked away. Never spoke to him again, but I’m still shaken, 15 years later. Totally gross.

              7. Jessica*

                The lawyer I was consulting about whether I had a sexual harassment case against my employer asked me out.

                1. Emikyu*

                  I am horrified by that, both as a woman and as a lawyer.

                  You do NOT do that to a client! WTF?! I knew this was a profession full of gross men, but still. I am so angry on your behalf right now.

            2. goddessoftransitory*

              How do people routinely greet Ross? What’s so astounding to him that someone would smile at a new acquaintance???

          2. But Of Course*

            Yeah, I gave a student directions to an office once and his immediate follow-up was to ask if I was married. Like, he didn’t ask my name, we had no other interactions, just I had helpfully answered a question so now I was marriage material. I was a teacher and the student was in his late 40s or early 50s.

            1. MigraineMonth*

              I showed a guy the basic salsa step once, and he said I should go to his home country with him so we could get married.

              1. Gumby*

                I once had someone sit down next to me on a bus and propose marriage after about 2 minutes of conversation. Which is even less informative than its short duration would imply because my Spanish is not fluent and his English was similarly marginal. Apparently we could get married and live half the year in California and half in Mexico (he wasn’t more specific on where he lived). Meanwhile, my mom and sister are in the seat behind me laughing.

        5. Analyst*

          As a woman, it’s absolutely scary. Especially the approach in the car park area. That’s the sort of thing that makes women fear they are in actual physical danger.

          1. Rainy*

            I just watched Woman of the Hour this weekend, about Rodney Alcala’s appearance on The Dating Game, and there’s a scene in a parking lot that is absolutely chilling.

          2. goddessoftransitory*

            That this guy thinks approaching a woman on her own, presumably in the dark, in a parking lot tells us an awful, awful lot about his sense of appropriateness.

        6. CJ*

          > I’m thinking wait until I see her next in the carport and talk to her before she goes upstairs to the office.

          is absolutely the start of a horror story, unfortunately. I was “you sweet summer child”ing through most of the question, but that one line raised my hackles into “boundary breaker” territory.

        7. Meep*

          For me, it is the fact they interacted ONCE in a group setting and she probably doesn’t even know his name, let alone probably forgot his existence, and he wants to stop her in the parking lot to ask her out because she has a pretty smile. That pushes it from “bad judgement” to “parasocial/stalker” behavior.

          1. Writer Claire*

            Once I came into work to discover a plate of home made cookies on my desk and a note. The note came from a guy who worked in the same building. He said in the note that I had a nice smile and would I like to go out with him? He left his name and work number.

            Reader, I had never met this person. I didn’t know who he was or ANYTHING about him. I was also married at the time but didn’t wear a wedding ring. Apparently he liked my smile and went about finding out my name and which desk was mine.

            I remember the horror I felt. Some stranger had been watching me for weeks, never bothered to actually get an introduction, but thought this woman-shaped object might make a good date.

            He never tried to contact me again, but for weeks, I was anxious about going to the cafeteria or walking to my car after dark. And yes, I threw out the cookies.

        8. Random Bystander*

          I would agree that it’s good that he wrote in for advice if only the question wasn’t “how do I do this [really inappropriate behavior]” and skipping right over the “should I?” And if the Brian posting throughout the comments is actually the LW1 and not a troll, not looking for the answer to the appropriate question (should I?)–answer is *NO!* but keeps on “no, really, how?” no matter how many times/how many people are saying “no, don’t do this. Double-plus ungood idea!”

          I mean, she’s doing pretty much the opposite of showing signs of being receptive to the LW’s intentions (which come in really high on the creep-o-meter), and that’s even in the LW’s addled presentation of her actions in which the only sign that he can claim to ever have received was a polite smile at the time of a work (not social) introduction.

        9. DameB*

          If you don’t think it’s scary then you’re a lucky dude or a very very lucky not-dude. Trust all the women I know – it’s flipping terrifying.

      4. Nicole Coelho Antoun*

        It’s the idea of approaching her in the parking garage that pinged my Red Flags Everywhere

        1. Annony*

          Yeah. Cornering someone you met once in the parking garage to try to ask them out is a really really bad idea.

      5. Jessica*

        The only saving grace in this story is that she’s way above him in the hierarchy and can hopefully exercise that power to protect herself.

      6. Vio*

        It reminds me of how I felt about a crush when I was a teenager. I completely confused it for head over heels love, despite the girl in question being somebody I barely knew. I’m hoping that the LW is very young and learns to not obsess over attraction. Sometimes such attraction can lead to a healthy and mutually loving romance, but unless you live in a romantic comedy that probably won’t happen when one person is in the others chain of command. Enjoy the feeling LW, but please don’t act on it. Instead, examine it. This is somebody you barely know anything about, the attraction is almost certainly entirely based on visual. That’s fine, but it’s not love, that requires actually knowing somebody. So don’t think of this as a One Shot At Happiness!! thing, it isn’t. There will be other people you’re attracted to and hopefully some of them will be more appropriately available and, best of all, be attracted to you as well.

      2. Heffalump*

        I shall never forget the smile on her face when I met her when she was introduced to each worker in the warehouse.

        Maybe she had that smile on her face when she was introduced to the other warehouse people also.

        2. sb51*

          The longer version:

          There was a period of time (like…2000-2010, IIRC?) where fedoras (or sometimes trilby hats, often confused with fedoras) were a huge fad among a subset of men who thought a certain sort of gallantry/benevolent sexism was a good way to win women’s hearts. (Also just a huge fad in general; I, a woman, had several of them, but the larger fad got tainted by too many jerks in fedoras/trilbys giving them a bad name.)

          1. Selina Luna*

            I have a fedora. I like the “Indiana Jones, terrible archeologist” vibes it gives my D&D characters. I agree that weirdos kind of ruined fedoras and trilbys.

            1. Wayward Sun*

              At the time this fad peaked I lived in a climate where a wide-brimmed hat is useful. I ended up wearing an Australian slouch hat instead, because as far as I know there haven’t been any stereotypes about those since Crocodile Dundee faded from our collective consciousness.

      4. Emilia Bedelia*

        He’s writing a letter to ask for advice from an advice columnist… just my opinion, but I think anyone would write slightly differently and more formally from their “normal” speech.
        I get it (because I have the same gut reaction to “shall”) but I feel like this is nitpicking to judge someone on the way that they write in a situation that’s not representative of how they talk normally. There’s plenty to go off of in the actual content of the letter without speculating on the OP’s personality based on one word.

      5. Sir Nose d'Voidoffunk*

        The ONLY thing I’ll say to push back on that is that OP also uses the phrase “car park” and may just be British. But the rest of it is every bit as stalkery as everyone has pointed out.

        1. Wayward Sun*

          The mention of a Christmas party further downthread also has that vibe for me. My understanding is UK office Christmas parties are held at the actual office and are extremely alcohol-heavy affairs.

          1. londonedit*

            Yes, because we’re clearly all alcoholics. Really, come on. Christmas parties in the UK vary as much as they do in the US. I’ve never worked anywhere where a Christmas do was held in the office, and people can drink as much or as little as they like. It’s not the 1980s.

        2. Agent Diane*

          “May just be British”

          This letter is stalkery, red flag, call security stuff in the UK too.

          1. Sir Nose d'Voidoffunk*

            Completely agree. Just commenting on the usage of Britishisms and lumping “shall” into that.

        3. Ellis Bell*

          Yeah he could just be a Brit, I didn’t particularly notice the “shall” because I am British. But honestly, waxing a bit lyrical about her smiling at him, as though that makes everything possible … that’s definitely a bit fedora territory for reasons other than word choices.

        4. londonedit*

          ‘Ahold’ is not a word we tend to use in Britain. Also, we don’t tolerate creepy stalkerish behaviour from men in this country either, thank you very much.

    3. Brian*

      thanks for your reply im thinking of waiting until the end of year dept Xmas party and see what transpires then

      1. BookishMiss*

        No. Do not ask her out. Do not ask her out at the office. Do not ask her out at an office party. Do. Not. Ask. Her. Out. Discard this idea entirely.

      2. Lilsis*

        Op, no! The GM is your boss, not your friend. You are creeping out a bunch of internet strangers. This will not go well for you. Life is not a Rom-Com movie.

        1. DJ Abbott*

          FWIW OP, I’m not creeped out. You’re young and don’t have much work experience, do you? It’s understandable that you want to get to know someone you’re attracted to, and I think it’s good that you would normally take initiative.
          But do not ask her out in this case. Dating a manager, or a manager dating a direct report, is never good. There’s a lot on this site about why it’s not good to be friends or more with people in your chain of command.
          I hope you won’t let the strong reactions of people thinking you’re creeping or some kind of horror show get you down. I remember what it was like to be young and clueless in my job, and wish you all the best in finding someone you can date in a more appropriate situation.

          1. infopubs*

            He’s probably not very young. It takes quite a bit of work experience to become GM, so the GM is probably middle aged. Most very young men don’t fantasize about walks on the beach and spending their birthday with women 20 years their senior.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              You might be surprised; lately I seem to ONLY be getting attention from inappropriately young men.

            2. Jamjari*

              He’s not the GM; she is. So he could be young or just inexperienced with the world.

              To OP, please heed the advice given by Alison and all the commenters. If you worked more closely and had had opportunities to chat and there was clear attraction on both sides and I trusted you to be able to judge her attraction to you … it’s still generally a *really* bad idea.

          2. Jopestus*

            I have a strong feeling LW does not have much social experience either. I am not creeped out, but I feel like LW is very very lost right now. I wish he listens to the advice to stop right now though.

            He can cause a lot of harm to his own career and ruin his image with people badly if he goes trough with his ideas. And thats added to the negative feelings he will cause to others.

            Okay, I lack english skills to put my whole point into the words, so I wont. I wish LW wisens up.

            1. MsM*

              Yeah, if OP is just clueless, I would much rather he come away understanding that this does not read that way to a lot of people so he doesn’t end up scaring any of his coworkers who feel similarly.

          3. Learn ALL the things*

            A man asking out a woman in her workplace when it seems as if he barely even knows her at all *is* a creepy move. It just is. As a woman who has been on the receiving end of this at work, I wish that men would never, ever do it.

            2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

              Yes. She is there to work, not get hit on. If you can’t see her as a distinct human being with an existence outside your own desire to ask her out, it is creepy.

            3. Lunch Bunch*

              It depends, not every ask is creepy. That said, this letter writer is creepy to the point of unhinged. Scary, scary vibes.

            4. Bear Expert*

              One of the biggest, rawest disagreements I’ve had in the leadership team at my last job was over this. RandomDude looked up one of the incident response staff, and because she was IR her personal cell was listed, and called her/texted her and left notes on her desk to ask her out and then explain himself when she said no.

              She wasn’t scared for her safety, yet, but she was unsettled and thrown off her game because she works hard to be professionally respected in a male dominated profession, and its really demoralizing to face that it doesn’t matter, some dudes will not see her as a professional colleague, only as a romantic potential.

              I was Through The Roof and one of the other members of the leadership team was basically “shrug, it happens all the time, what’s the big deal? He asked, she said no, story over. I know people who met and got married from work, would you say they shouldn’t have?”

              I think its a big deal because now someone who I want to only worry about their technical capabilities is also going to be fretting over how much they should/should not smile in case randomdude decides its an invitation. And this is even attempting to ignore using incident response information to try to get a date.

              I’d prefer asking out at work be an absolute no-go, like teachers-student, medical professional-patient, but I can see that meeting people at work is a thing that happens. (And I’m not against people dating who work together, though management chains have to be carefully managed.) In reality, I think it needs to be treated as a high risk act, default to ‘no’, exceptions will be obviously exceptional. Asking out people you’ve only met once is something that should be left to places where people are in public by choice, not their workplace.

          4. Worldwalker*

            I’m creeped out, and I’m fairly creep-resistant. If I were her and knew this was happening, I’d start carrying pepper spray.

          5. Over It*

            You seem very insistent that OP must be young, and reading this comment I think I see why. You are identifying strongly with the OP based on your own past history, and assuming that their behavior is for the same reasons yours was.

            As a woman who has been on the receiving end of this behavior multiple times, let me assure you that being young and inexperienced is not usually the root cause. And it is creepy. It’s very, very creepy. Your personal high tolerance for creepiness does not mean that it is not, in fact, creepy.

          6. Observer*

            You’re young and don’t have much work experience, do you? It’s understandable that you want to get to know someone you’re attracted to, and I think it’s good that you would normally take initiative.

            Yeah, but this goes well beyond that.

            Also, it doesn’t matter how young and inexperienced he may be. He’s being willfully obtuse here. What Alison said makes it clear that he should not ask her out even if things go “well” at the Christmas party. Yet, he’s planning to hang his hat on the party.

            And that’s before we get to the fact that he’s an absolutely unreliable judge of the signals someone is sending. The idea that a smile when they got introduced is a “signal” that’s strong enough to even consider what he was thinking of, clearly indicates that he’s seeing what he *wants* see, not what is.

          7. Serious Silly Putty*

            It’s NOT just that she’s a manager. It’s that she’s someone he doesn’t know, had no interaction with so as to gage her interest, and who is not putting herself in a social situation where one may reasonably conclude one is open to such interactions. (Ie, she’s not a stranger standing on the sidelines of the dance floor.)
            It is a violation of her privacy to impose one’s self on her personal life in work situation where she cannot avoid people and is obliged to keep up a positive working relationship.
            Plus there is a lot of pressure on women in the workplace to not come off as “b*tchy”, a term that is lobbed at anyone who doesn’t cater to fragile male egos. So she’ll have to balance that against the risk of being too gentle and thus “leading him on” — which could have its own repercussions.
            Plus he can see her from the parking lot and she knows that. She doesn’t know the OP which means she doesn’t know if it will be safe to go to/from her car after she rejects him.
            Good intentions and a pure heart aren’t enough. It is the duty of all decent males to think through the calculations they will be forcing upon a woman they ask out. If they are NOT doing that, it’s a yellow flag.

      3. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

        I’m going to give you a warning that I should have given a former member of staff:

        If you go to that party with the intent of asking her out you’re going to be misinterpreting her every. Single. Action all night. You’ve already turned a simple smile into a dream. So you’ll be concentrating or moving too close to her the whole time.

        And from a woman’s perspective it’s absolutely terrifying. The scenario that happened in our case involved said guy getting really drunk and removed by police after backing his boss into a corner and making comments about how she’d dressed to entice men.

        (Hi. I was that boss)

      4. Myrin*

        You know, OP, the problem is that something or other might well transpire at your Christmas party – maybe she coincidentally ends up sitting right next to you during dinner, for example, and you get to have a conversation you both participate enthusiastically and clearly enjoy.

        That still doesn’t change basically anything about Alison’s first paragraph. Most of all, it doesn’t change anything about these words you said yourself:

        She works in the offices upstairs when office protocol and company policy won’t let me ask her these questions.

        I highly, highly doubt that this rule has anything to do with where she is physically located. If company policy doesn’t let you ask her romantic questions in the office space, it’s not going to suddenly be okay with those questions just because you’re at a restaurant or in the carpark or running into her on the street or something. It’s about the principle, not the physical space.

      5. Jopestus*

        In case this is the actual LW instead of someone posing as him for laughs:

        Bro. Stop. Now. Do not follow this interest any further. Seek love from somewhere else. Our little Johns are not that smart, so better not to think with them.

      6. londonedit*

        No. Please leave this woman alone. If she goes to the Christmas party then she’s there to enjoy herself, not to fend off advances from random co-workers. Please, please do not ask this woman out. Leave her alone.

      7. Seashell*

        Please don’t try to date anyone at work. It’s just a potential problem waiting to happen. See if your friends or family know someone they can set you up with, and maybe they can give you advice on how to know when a woman is actually interested in you.

      8. Learn ALL the things*

        Do not do this. The women in your workplace do not exist for the purpose of being asked out by their coworkers.

        It sounds like you haven’t even had many conversations with this woman. How well do you know her, really? How do you even know if you like her? It it just because she’s a woman and she’s pretty? Because that’s not a good enough reason.

        1. Worldwalker*

          That’s probably exactly his reason.

          He doesn’t know anything about her except her position in the company. Not her political views, not her preference in movies or music, not her hobbies, nothing except what she looks like.

          What if she’s a lesbian who does roller derby, is somewhat of a Goth, plays fantasy and SF games, and likes some pretty alternative music, but she can look “normal” when she wants? Think that’s a stretch? I just described a friend; she might be reading this column. [waves] And that’s a lot more likely than that she’s a lonely single who likes exactly what the OP likes and is just wanting for him.

          This is not about two like-minded people connecting; this is about one person (the OP) “collecting” a person … not a person, a “female” … who he sees as physically attractive as sort of a trophy.

          I’m also getting definite fedora vibes here.

          And if that poster is really him, and he really hits on the GM at the holiday party, he’ll be lucky if he’s only kicked out of the party, not the company.

          1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

            Literally their total interaction was she smiled while introduced.

            Dude, if you think that smile was just for you, please stop now. She was being polite. A woman smiling is not an invitation to ask her out.

            1. MsM*

              And just because it made you feel things does not mean there was some kind of mystical connection between you in that moment that she must have felt as well.

      10. HonorBox*

        For your sake and for the sake of the GM, please please please do not do this. Even if you do have a personal connection, this will reflect poorly on you. The GM does not need to worry about having to turn down an employee and how that will impact the workplace. Let this crush pass.

      11. MCMonkeybean*

        Please listen to Alison that the bar for asking a woman out at work is SO much higher. This person does not even really know you! Thinking she has a pretty smile is NOT enough of a reason to ask her out. That is just her face and she was just being polite. This is her source of income and you are going to make it uncomfortable. Please don’t.

      12. Neptune*

        If you actually are the OP, the fact that you’ve asked this question, read Alison’s very clear negative response and a huge number of very negative comments and are like “I’ll just wait for the Christmas party and try then” – that doesn’t really give me confidence that you would be able to take a rejection gracefully. Leave this woman alone.

      13. The Original K.*

        Don’t do it. She will say no, because she is your boss. There is nothing to indicate that she has anything other than a professional interest in you. This will not and should not go the way you want it to, and has the potential for pretty negative outcomes for you.

      15. Elizabeth West*

        Dude, just no.
        She’s your manager. Nothing will transpire.

        Get over it or start looking for a new job, because you will probably be fired if you pursue this. You’re in the warehouse and they can fill your job in two seconds, so it will be very easy to chuck you out.

    4. HB*

      I am *really* hoping that the first letter is somehow fake. Like someone wrote in because a friend expressed a desire to do this exact thing and they’re looking for backup on why it’s a terrible, terrible idea. Unfortunately I think some of the details are too personal to be anything but real.

      1. RC*

        Presuming it is real… how much do you want to bet he googled “how to ask a manager out” and it dropped him at this website? I can’t figure any other way that he would have thought he’d get a favorable answer here.

        1. Strive to Excel*

          AAM is the 4th hit I get after Quora and two Reddit threads. But I’m on here a lot so my Google fu might be skewed.

      2. Pointy's in the North Tower*

        I belong to a certain adult-themed site and several discussion groups on that site. Grown men (as in 30s and older) come into the Ask A Women groups ALL.THE.TIME. wanting to know if the server who smiled at him was flirting, if some random woman wearing black lipstick was doing it to flirt with him specifically, if certain items of clothing that coworkers are wearing are signaling interest. Every single AFAB person responds with “No, she’s living her life without thought to you.” Every single time, the man has a tantrum and usually accuses the respondents of various unflattering things. These men cannot handle that their fantasy is only that.

        I highly doubt this letter is fake.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          I love how women are supposed to be all fragile and ruled by their emotions while guys like this build entire empires in the clouds based on lipstick shades.

          I mean, this can be (in some instances, not all, of course) a mental illness called erotomania, where the sufferer is 100% convinced that a person is totally in love with them and they are involved in a relationship. If they wear a blue sweater, it’s a secret signal. If they run errands on a Wednesday, it’s part of their coded messaging.

          Now obviously most people are not that far gone, this is hardly common. But it’s entirely possible for even “normal” people to construct this kind of fantasy from nothing.

      3. KateM*

        If a friend did express a desire to do that exact thing, then the letter is not really fake, is it?

      4. Meep*

        I asked a similar question on the Friday thread on if commenters thought that dating a coworker was appropriate, so I am also hoping this is just someone making an extreme case to continue the discussion. Even if I do know there are men who are really like this out there.

    5. T2*

      Look. As a service to everyone: your workplace is a workplace. It is not a place to mine potential personal relationships.

      Go to work, do your job, be friendly. But knock it off with the imputing personal desires to everyday gestures.

    7. nekosan*

      Yeah. As was stated, life is not a RomCom.

      LW #1, if your goal is to terrify her, be slapped with a sexual harassment claim, be fired, and never be allowed to speak to her, sure, follow your current path.

    8. iglwif*

      I physically recoiled.

      OP, absolutely under no circumstances whatsoever should you ask this person out. There is no possible way in which this will end well.

  2. Daria grace*

    #1, I absolutely agree with everything Allison said. Please do not ask this woman out, you will be putting her in an incredibly uncomfortable situation over an inappropriate ask in a workplace context.

    Even outside the workplace, don’t go approaching a woman in a car park or other spaces where there’s not a lot of people around and she might be inclined to worry about her safety

    1. Observer*

      Yes! 1,000 x yes!

      Thanks especially for mentioning not approaching women in a car park or place like that.

      I’ll just add that you should also never wait around like that for a woman. She is going to legitimately worry about you being a stalker.

        1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          I wouldn’t got so far as to say it’s stalker activity. It sounds like he sees her coming in when he is working because the parking lot is near the loading dock or whatever. So I think he just sees her and is not stalking her. BUT it does have MAJOR RED FLAGS! To me it sounds like he hasn’t even had much interaction with her. He just sees a pretty woman and thinks she’d like to go out with him without any information. Does he know if she is even single or straight? This is a prime example of men thinking that every woman wants to be asked out.

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        Not only is this LW asking about doing something incredibly inappropriate, he managed to leap directly into the most terrifying way to do it that doesn’t involve bringing a live cougar on a leash to their “accidental meet cute.”

    2. duinath*

      Absolutely. Anyone who you have a relationship (or lack of one) with where the only time you can think of to talk to them is while they are parking their car? You should not approach them.

      If you know them in a different setting you apporoach them in that other setting, you don’t corner them. But to reiterate: don’t ask out people at work (or in general) just because they’re polite to you. That’s nothing.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        Don’t ask out people at their work, either, even if it isn’t yours. The barista/salesperson/stylist/masseuse isn’t flirting with you. They’re being customer-service-friendly, just like they are with literally every other customer. Leave them alone.

        Rule of thumb: never ask someone out in a situation where they would suffer any negative repercussions for telling you to go to hell.

    3. Muddled and befuddled*

      Came here to say that approaching her, likely at night, likely in a deserted parking lot is absolutely fucking terrifying. Her only thought is going to be whether or not you’re going to try to abduct her.

      1. Meep*

        I had a guy approach me in a deserted parking lot a couple months back to sign up to show my choice for a pro-choice measure. I practically ran to my car, locked the door, and refused to roll down the window to talk to him, because absolutely not. You DO NOT jump out between cars and start calling after random women you do not know.

        1. KateM*

          I once had a man clearly zooming towards my car to talk to me in an underground parking lot, my instinct was to hit lock on doors and refuse to roll down the windows, too. Thankfully, he had the good sense to move away as soon as he realized that he was scaring me. (As it turned out, he wanted to tailgate me out of the pay-as-you-leave parking lot without paying.)

          1. Meep*

            Geebus. Seriously all the wrong reasons.

            In my case, he left me alone after the female surveyor with him talked him down. (And I signed the petition.) Interestingly, enough, he was was a tall BIPOC man in regular street clothes (so no indication of what he wanted other than a clipboard) and I am a white woman. Add on, while it was a mostly liberal city, the part it was in is pretty red, so the judgement on chasing a woman into her car and then hounding her to get signatures for a pro-choice vote was extra skewed.

            I pray he corrected his behavior to before he was shot by either his fellow citizen or the police.

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        And frankly, what happens if she does rightly freak out and pepper spray him or worse? This is just a horrible idea from every possible angle.

        1. Roland*

          Brian: The only “both” or “us” is: working for the same company. There is NO possible “us” within nor without the company. Develop healthy OutsideTheCompany relationships. Do. Not. Approach. Nor. Hover. Near/Far. Her.

      4. Daria grace*

        You don’t. Tracking down people from your company outside work whom don’t have a mutually genuine friendship with at work would be weird behaviour even if it were genuinely platonic. It would be massively worse invade their personal life presenting as seeking friendship when you actually have romantic intentions.

      5. AngryOctopus*

        If you are going to be friends with someone (coworker) outside work, you first develop a work friendship. Then you start hanging out outside work. HOWEVER. She is your GM. In this case you do NOT develop a work friendship. It would not be appropriate. You can be warm and friendly with your manager/GM, but these are not relationships for work friendships. It would be too easy for that to look inappropriate (as in, people think you get better hours or more opportunity because you’re buddies with the manager). Also. In this case you are CLEARLY looking for an in so you can try to develop a relationship. Please stop. Your GM doesn’t need to worry about that, and there are lots of people out there with whom you may have a more appropriate relationship. Please drop this and move on.

        1. Smurfette*

          >you first develop a work friendship

          And the work friendship must develop naturally. You don’t *decide* that someone is going to be your work friend.

      6. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

        You’d have to wait till one of you leaves the company. Dating a manager at the same company isn’t generally a thing, because it’s too messy.

        But you also need to accept beforehand that she just might not be interested. It can be that you are attracted to her but she isn’t attracted to you.

        A lot of movies would then tell the story like “he keeps trying in different ways and shows how much he cares, and she changes her mind”, but real life often isn’t like that. In real life, men who think it’s gonna be like in the movies, and keep trying and keep trying, can end up being very creepy. In real life, you should be able to go like “okay, there’s other fish in the sea”, and not get hung up on one particular person.

        Do you belong to any hobby groups where you can just meet in a friendly way and get to know a few different people? That might help with not getting too hung up on one particular one.

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          Love your advice to wait. If it’s meant to be, it’ll happen when the situation is appropriate.

          But don’t resign just to have the opportunity to ask.

        2. Worldwalker*

          In real life, those men don’t end up with the object of their desire; they end up with a restraining order or a jail sentence.

      7. DJ Abbott*

        You have a crush on her. Crushes happen. In this case, do not act on it. Turn your attention away from her and towards women you can date appropriately. Let the crush pass and do nothing.
        In a few months, you will have forgotten all about this.

      8. Learn ALL the things*

        in this case, you don’t. You aren’t entitled to a friendship with a woman just because you want one.

      9. Irish Teacher.*

        You don’t. She’s the GM. She can’t be “friends outside work” with you. It would be a conflict of interest and would make other people working with you wonder if you are getting unfair favours. Plus, even apart from that, there is nothing here to suggest she would have any interest in being friends with you even if there was no conflict of interest.

        You don’t know her. She doesn’t know you. The odds are that if you did get talking, you’d find you had nothing in common and no interest in spending time together. You don’t need to get to know her. For one thing, it would be awkward for her to know you well if something like layoffs were to happen. Would you feel betrayed if it turned out you were being laid off and ye were friends and she knew and didn’t tell you? Would other people feel that if you weren’t laid off in such a situation that she might have put in a good word for you? It’s just not appropriate.

        For another thing, again, she has done nothing to suggest she has any interest in getting to know you. This may be because of the conflict of interest. It may be just because she hasn’t taken any particular notice of you. It may be because she has enough friends. But for whatever reason, assume she doesn’t want to know you any better or be friends outside of work and she gets a say too. You both have to want to get to know each other for that to happen and…it doesn’t sound like she does.

        Look, you’ve said she goes straight upstairs. That indicates she isn’t particularly interested in stopping to talk to you. Accept this and don’t try to build a closer relationships. Don’t do it in the carpark. Don’t do it in the building. Don’t do it at the staff party. Just accept that you aren’t going to be friends and certainly aren’t going to date.

        You’ve gotten invested in developing a relationship before you even know her. That isn’t good. There’s a very good chance that if you did get to know her, she’d turn out to be boring or have some really annoying habit or hold a view you find abhorrent and you wouldn’t get on at all. Assume that, that she is somebody you would have no interest in friendship or a relationship with and just move on and meet other people.

        1. Antilles*

          She’s the GM. She can’t be “friends outside work” with you.
          This. Even if you both had tons of stuff in common and tons of shared interests, her role effectively precludes you guys from being “friends outside work” because she needs to be able to make objective judgments about layoffs, firings, management etc.
          And even if she truly can remain objective about all that and doesn’t give you any special treatment, it doesn’t matter – in the minds of everybody else, they’re going to automatically assume that special treatment is happening.

      10. Chauncy Gardener*

        You can’t, Brian. You can’t be friends with her outside of work. She’s the General Manager of your company’s whole location. She’s your “Big Boss” and can’t be friends or more with anyone who reports up to her.
        PLEASE drop this idea right now.

      11. HonorBox*

        You shouldn’t be friends with your GM outside of work. And more importantly, your GM should not be friends with you outside of work. Do yourself a favor and read the numerous letters here highlighting how problematic this can be. Do your job. Do not try to be friends with your boss’s boss’s boss.

      12. Ghostess*

        Holy heck this reminds me of the time I was on an airport shuttle with only one other passenger, who spent the entire ride trying to talk me into getting to know him. He started out with randomly asking me out. When I (probably too politely) declined, he asked if we could be friends. Again, no thank you. Then he started asking how I knew I didn’t want to be friends if I didn’t know him. Just this persistent line of questioning about how he could get to know me. Sir, YOU CANNOT. Eventually, I just got up and moved up to the seat behind the driver.

        Please do not be that person, ESPECIALLY when the woman you are fixated on is your boss.

      14. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Stop.

        She doesn’t stop to chat with people, just immediately goes upstairs to work. That is the big red flashing sign of I Am Here to Work. Respect her boundaries and stop trying to come up with cute ways to make her talk to you.

      15. learnedthehardway*

        You don’t.

        A) you don’t want to be friends – you want to date her. You’re not being honest with yourself, and you certainly wouldn’t be being honest with her.
        B) you have no interest in her personally – you just like how she looks. You know nothing about her. For all you know, she’s married or in a relationship.
        C) She’s going to reject friendship with you for the same reason she would reject a romantic relationship – she’s your 2nd or 3rd line manager, and it’s a conflict of interest for her to strike up a friendship with a subordinate. She didn’t get to the career level she is at by being stupid.
        D) She’ll be polite, but she will not be interested. And you’re going to misread that, just as you misread her smiling when she met you (and every other person on the production floor).

        1. learnedthehardway*

          ETA – Seriously, drop this idea and any idea of getting to know her if you value your job. Because you’re an HR complaint waiting to happen.

          And it will – you try and push a relationship on your GM, and you will get turfed from your job so fast your head will spin. And for good reason.

      16. The Kulprit*

        Don’t. If you need to brainstorm ways to access someone to speak to them to be friends, you do not have a friend-type relationship. They aren’t making themselves available outside of official channels. More than that, your manager cannot have a personal relationship with you. It is biased, it is going to create suspicion of preferential treatment, it would be unprofessional.

        Do not ever wait for someone by their car! That’s not the behavior of someone who is friendly and has good intentions. If I learned someone was doing this to a colleague, I would notify my coworker and offer to walk them to their car. Don’t do this.

        1. Observer*

          If I learned someone was doing this to a colleague, I would notify my coworker and offer to walk them to their car.

          Thank you.

          I would also definitely notify HR (and security if the company has security and they are decent.)

      17. Picking the Bear Again*

        You don’t. You get on with your life, broaden your social circle in natural ways, and meet a range of people in the world as you live a rich, full life. And then you are someone worth getting to know, who is thoughtful and considerate about social interactions.

        The alternative is both gross and creepy. Don’t be that guy. There are too many of him already.

      18. Smurfette*

        Brian, women go to work because they have a job or a career. They are not there to meet a romantic partner. They want to be able to focus on their work, and not deal with romantic advances from a coworker (even when those advances are disguised as “wanting to be friends”).

        It would show a terrible lack of judgement on your part to pursue this idea. Lots of people are telling you this, including women who’ve been on the receiving end of unwanted attention. Please listen.

        Respect your coworkers’ boundaries, and look for other places to meet people socially. Don’t become fixated on someone because they were pleasant or friendly. Women are socialised to behave this way and it’s not an indication of interest.

      19. Bear Expert*

        As everyone else is saying, and I hope you are able to hear – The GM can’t be friends with you.

        This site has lots of good talk about how management roles cannot be friends with the people they manage, and vice versa, and how that can be difficult on both sides. I know that when I moved into management, even with good boundaries and supportive people, there were points where people got upset that I wasn’t able to be their friend Bear anymore, and I was being Boss Bear. (And times where I was desperately heartbroken about people I cared about and needed to be Boss Bear anyway. A colleague of mine gave me a great sit down at one point and said “They have other friends, they only have one boss, they need you to be their boss.”)

        They can’t be friends with you even if they wanted to be. This is not a thing you can do, she is not a person you can date.

        What you can do is your job. You can make your professional work great and not cause trouble for your GM. Your workplace is not a good place to find people to ask out, and management (or people you may eventually manage) are extremely off limits.

      20. Observer*

        so how do I get hold of her just to be friends outside work

        You don’t.

        I realize that this is not what you want to hear. But you need to accept that.

        Considering that you actually do not know anything about her, it’s probably just as well. Right now you have this figment of your imagination built up in your head. Reality rarely matches that, so this would never live up to what you were expecting anyway.

    5. Chirpy*

      This! Do not wait for a woman in a car park, or outside her work, or follow her anywhere! It is EXACTLY scary stalker behavior. You may think “but I’m not like that”, but if you truly have her interests at heart, you will think about why she will likely be uncomfortable with a man she’s met once suddenly showing up in a place where she is alone. It is dangerous, and scary for her.

      Do not approach her at the Christmas party, or in her office. She smiled at you once, and all that means is she’s polite. She has shown NO interest in you. NONE. Besides, your company has a policy against managers dating subordinates, and that is to protect everyone involved. Office romances often go spectacularly bad. Move on, and leave her alone.

    6. Iloveaudits*

      I’ll chime in with my own experience. I’m a woman, one day a man in my chain of command had the bright idea of suddenly hug me in the warehouse, try to kiss me and start talking of his plans regarding our wedding. I did report him to HR within the hour, by the afternoon he was gone. OP1 no woman goes to work to be hit on. Just drop it. You’ll end up without the happy ending you are creepily fantasizing about and possibly without a job and without references. Just no.

  3. Ginger Cat Lady*

    OP1 all she did was smile at you. A friendly professional gesture. That’s it. Just because you’re blowing it out of proportion in your mind doesn’t mean you’re entitled to her attention.
    Stop fantasizing about her, do not ask her out, do not expect her to be your birthday companion.
    She’s your general manager, for goodness sake!
    Just because you want it, does NOT mean it’s a good idea.
    Leave. Women. Alone. At. Work.
    Find someone else to date. Someone who doesn’t work with you.
    Sheesh.

    2. Poison I.V. drip*

      Creepy men: You women should smile more.
      Also creepy men: You smiled! That means you’re into me! In my mind, I’ve already pictured us having 8 kids and a big dog. Now I just have to ask you out!

      3. The Rafters*

        “Now I just have to ask you out” … by approaching you in a parking lot/garage!

        I don’t understand why some of the people commenting aren’t creeped out by OP after reading that little part of the fantasy.

        1. 1-800-BrownCow*

          Oh, I’m completely freaked out. How many tv shows are women attached by someone in a parking garage? Or a plain white van pulls up next to them while walking through a parking lot and the side door opens and they’re pulled inside.

          The few times I’ve been in a city alone, I am always on high alert when walking through a parking garage, especially at night, and my heart is pounding the whole time. If some guy approached me to ask me out, I would likely scream and run the other direction. Ugh. I normally am not bothered by reading things like this, but this particular posted question has been giving me anxiety. I feel sorry for the GM if OP decides to still act on his thoughts.

        2. goddessoftransitory*

          It’s amazing that the LW has managed to derive his entire fantasy from popular media while simultaneously apparently never have watched a TV show or movie in his entire life.

    3. Antilles*

      That was what jumped out at me too, because there’s no indication she even likes OP. Their only interaction is when she was doing the “car wash” of shaking hands with all X dozen warehouse workers one after another. She goes straight upstairs through the main entrance and they never interact at work. The only time OP mentions seeing her is when he’s unloading trucks at the loading dock “away from the main carport”.
      Frankly, depending on how many people work in the warehouse, she might not even remember OP’s name; your name just blurred together with the other 50 handshakes she did back-to-back on her first day.

          1. Bitte Meddler*

            Sadly, though, that way usually leads to an escalation in negative behavior on the man’s part, up to an including physical violence.

            With men like the OP, we have to make them believe that we are already the property of another man (like wearing a fake wedding ring) in order for them to exit somewhat gracefully.

            1. Jellyfish Catcher*

              True there. I got rid of one guy by saying my (nonexistent) husband was
              getting angry about the inappropriate calls.
              It also pissed me off – that a women can’t say “no” and be believed – but
              a fictitious man/ husband will be believed by a harassing man.

              1. Irish Teacher.*

                I’m getting the impression these guys don’t think women are really people. They think we are property or some kind of pets that they can “own” so the only way to make them think we aren’t strays to be “adopted” by any kind man, is to make it clear we already have an “owner.”

                That we have agency seems to be beyond their ability to understand.

    5. Cat Tree*

      Yeah, when I started reading I expected some kind of connection, however tenuous. Maybe he saw that she had a keychain of something relating to his own obscure hobby, or overhead her talking about his favorite movie. And to be clear, it would still be inappropriate to ask her out.

      But this is even worse! The only reason he’s interested is because she’s visually appealing to him.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        It is one micron away from his deciding that a model on a billboard he passes every day is into him.

    6. goddessoftransitory*

      She is your boss’s boss’s boss!

      To quote Captain Awkward, there’s bad ideas, and then there’s…whatever this is.

  4. Don't do it, OP1!*

    OP1, our sweet summer child… please take Alison’s advice to heart. This will not end well. Better to keep the memory of that smile in your heart and keep looking for your one true love, than to be fired over perceived harassment.

    1. OP1, seriously, don't*

      +10000. As someone who has been asked out a few times at two vastly different jobs (retail and corp), it has never ended well. And while it wasn’t exactly pleasant to be on the receiving end of it (I’d given zero signals), it ended up backfiring on the guy doing the asking in two of the instances.

      In the first time, it was because the person who asked me out also asked out like…half a dozen other girls, some of whom were precariously close to being underage, and got a very stern talking to from a manager.

      In the second case, I politely rejected the guy and he sadly drunk messaged me after. I was like “hey, it happens to the best of us, don’t sweat it,” but he was so embarrassed *he* blocked *me* on all social media, got his friend (another coworker) to also unfriend me on social media, and neither one of them ever spoke to me again.

    2. Smurfette*

      Honestly, I don’t think OP knows what “that guy” is. He seems oblivious to workplace norms, unfortunately.

  6. Lorna*

    OP1:
    Unfortunately, your reaction is why some women don’t smile at work ( and then get told they’d look sooooo much prettier if they did)
    A smile is not flirting, it’s not an invitation to romance – it’s just a friendly gesture. So keep it friendly and keep your distance.

    2. SayHey*

      Did you see that he replied that he’s going to wait till the xmas party and ask her out then? He’s not taking in ANY of this feedback.

      3. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Yup. I look forward to hearing his update. I see two scenarios: he asks her out and she turns him down, things get awkward and/or he gets stalker-y and fired; or he heeds everyone’s advice here and realizes that he really shouldn’t ask her out and doesn’t.

        Also, does he even know if she’s single or not? I suppose the third scenario would be she brings her partner to the xmas event and luckily OP is smart enough to realize that he shouldn’t ask her out.

    3. Worldwalker*

      And y’know, that carries the connotation that “looking pretty” (i.e., appealing to the male gaze) is an important, possibly the most important, goal they should have.

  7. Leslie Santiago*

    I’m in a similar situation to LW2, except my uncommunicative and unproductive colleague Rebecca is actually senior to me, in a manager position (equivalent to my boss) and they report to someone quite senior indeed. Rebecca is not well regarded across the organisation but my organisation is not one for prompt people management, especially for poor performers at managerial level, and doesn’t seem to be doing anything about her. Any suggestions on how to handle it?

    1. allathian*

      You basically have two options, either a cynical “not my circcus, not my monkeys” situation where you try to work around that missing stair as much as you can. The other option is to look for another job…

      It’s also time to document and to make Rebecca’s unwillingness to communicate with you the management’s problem, Alison has some great advice on that. It’s not easy to do given your respective positions in the organization, but if Rebecca’s unwillingness to communicate is impacting your work in a way that could affect your performance evaluations, it’s best to document things for CYA reasons.

      1. Leslie Santiago*

        Thanks. I’m doing my best to document and track her lack of effort. I only deal with her as a small part of my job so it’s definitely the former not the latter option for me.

    2. Hyaline*

      Since this seniority position is flip-flopped, can I clarify–are you essentially assigning Rebecca work/managing the project that needs her input, or are you on more equal footing or even asking only for higher-up signoff, but you’re getting stuck waiting on her contribution?

      If it’s the former, I think part of the problem is the weird dynamic created by essentially being asked to manage someone senior to you, and I’d loop in your manager to express the issues. Essentially, does someone senior to Rebecca need to be the one asking this of her, not you? Could this be accomplished? Does Rebecca’s manager need to have a conversation with her about priorities and that, yes, even though Leslie is “subordinate” this project is NOT a bottom of the list item and she needs to get on it when you contact her?

      If it’s the latter, and you’re not assigning tasks or managing the project but still need info or signoff from her, I’d probably still loop in my manager, but she might just suck at prioritizing her emails or tasks–I’d be very clear in my requests about timeframe and exactly what I needed (even if it shouldn’t need to be said!) and start copying my manager as a CYA move, and then, to some degree, disengage and let the chips fall. At some point the organization either repairs the missing stair or they don’t.

      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        I’m assuming that Leslie is a teapot glazier and Rebecca is the Chief Teapot Thrower, or something like that — Leslie is a lower-level worker than Rebecca, but their work requires inputs from her/her team.

        Leslie, I’d escalate to your boss in your situation, too. Not necessarily “Rebecca is a problem,” but “We’re often getting 400 of the 500 teapots two days before the glazing deadline, and the remaining hundred a week or two after, which obviously means we can’t hit our own targets. How should I handle this? [Perhaps with a “I’ve told Rebecca that our deadline is X, but that hasn’t had any effect,” or whatever is true.]

        It honestly doesn’t matter whether Rebecca is prioritizing appropriately or just bad at her job — she’s creating a workflow problem for you, and you are well within your rights to ask your manager how to deal with that workflow problem.

        1. Leslie Santiago*

          Yes, that’s essentially correct. My team coordinates contingency planning and her team is a contributor to that. So while the project is a major workstream for us, they just contribute a small piece of it and it’s probably not a top priority for them. An example is that for us to effectively plan for something, we have to refer to an external plan; it’s clear from her questions and responses that she hasn’t properly familiarised herself with the plan, and it’s awkward to tell someone senior to you that they need to prepare better for the meeting.

          My manager is aware of the difficulties we have and she has escalated it once or twice for me but it doesn’t really fix anything.

          It is definitely a workflow problem, but her not doing her piece doesn’t affect me right now. It just means we might be screwed if the thing we are planning for happens. It’s also complicated by the fact that she represents another team on the project as well tha

          1. Leslie Santiago*

            whoops! another team that she doesn’t generally do the work for, and I don’t see the work she’s done internally for that side of things, I just have a feeling she hasn’t done it very well. I will have a think about how I can get more visibility of that.

  8. Pink Sprite*

    OP 1 – I’m going to be blunt here. You’ve built a whole “relationship” already with this woman (your boss!!) out of only a smile.
    You listed FIVE ideas for “dates” to go on with her. And it’s ALL based on nothing.
    If she knew about all of your plans, she could likely call you a stalker – especially if you began talking to her about your plans and intentions and then started asking her to go out.
    *** Leave her alone! ***

    1. KateM*

      I’m not sure if it’s because I have been out of date pool for decades and don’t have facebook nor messenger, but these ideas come in a weird order for me. Wouldn’t adding someone on social media to get to know them better be a more logical and more safe-feeling first step, and not to even think about walks on beach or birthday parties when you don’t know the person at all?

      1. Your Former Password Resetter*

        It is a very weird order! OP is trying to jump straight to a romantic relationship with someone who barely knows he exists and has never expressed any interest in connecting with him, let alone starting a deeper and intimate relationship.

        This is not at all how people start dating, especially if there are complicating factors like being colleagues.

      2. Dog momma*

        Not in this situation. It has stalker written all over it. Plus the possibility of harassment and creepy as hell.. He has every right to get fired over this if he follows through.

      3. Daria grace*

        Depends on the local culture around social media. In places where messenger is a preferred messaging, adding someone can be like giving them your private phone number so there’s a degree of personalness that following someone on Twitter doesn’t help

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Even if it’s equivalent to a personal phone number, I’d expect that before a birthday date at the beach.

          It’s very, very clear that OP has a goal (intense fantasy romance) and sees these other things (reminding her of his name, exchanging contact info, learning literally anything about her life or interests, having an actual conversation, becoming friends) as annoying steps that need to be checked off on the way to obtaining that goal.

      4. Clisby*

        I see what you’re saying, but in the case the OP’s describing, I’d still think it was weird to get a FB message from some guy whose name I don’t recognize and who I don’t remember meeting. (OP, I can guarantee she doesn’t remember you and doesn’t know your name.)

      5. Roland*

        Outside of Work or Business, your idea might be doable, if done very carefully, and without a hint of lite following, more following, and really following.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Hard disagree. This is a terrible idea, period. Women are people with agency.

          The work piece makes it even worse but there’s no reason for any man to be thinking about acting on any of those thoughts based on the NOTHING presented.

      6. Hyaline*

        The incredibly weird order was what really screeched the brakes on this one for me–that if this letter isn’t fake, the letter writer honestly has some bigger issues to work through than the courtesies of personal relationships in the workplace. The idea that a woman who *smiled at you once* would want to *celebrate your birthday with you* is some very, very, skewed thinking. I know it’s tempting to pile on this guy for being a creep, but I think he should really truly consider if there are unhealthy patterns of thinking going on and seek help. This screams “mental illness” to me.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          As a reminder, please do not try to diagnose LWs. All of us have unhealthy thinking patterns, and this one doesn’t seem connected with a mental illness. It’s probably more connected with entitlement, deliberate ignorance and a failure to treat women as human beings with full agency.

          If LW was willing to listen to any advice, I would recommend therapy, but that’s not because I think he has a mental illness.

      7. learnedthehardway*

        If the GM has any sense, she’ll ignore any social media invite.
        Heck, I don’t even accept social media invitations from my cleaning lady – because she’s working for me – and I’m only connected with business colleagues on LinkedIn, which is specifically for work connections.

      8. Freya*

        Social media is, like, the third or fourth step. Talking to them without any expectations, enough to know if you have anything at all in common to talk about, is the first step.

        I also have a separate set of social media for work people and for friends. There may be some overlap, but my boss is very definitely on the former, because my personal opinions on a bunch of things have no place in the workplace since my worksona is much less opinionated than I am!

  9. Free Meerkats*

    For number 2 and everyone in their position.

    Stop covering up the problems this person is creating.

    If you need 3 business days to review a document, 4 days before it’s due to you send one email stating that, ccing their manager. When they get it to you with only 5 hours left, take your 3 days to review it. You are just doing your job, it’s not your fault they didn’t do theirs.

    Stop editing their work. Get out your red pen and bleed all over it then send it back to them and their manager. Require them to do the work, you have your own work to do.

    IOW, let stuff fail, but CYA.

    And number one, WTF dude?

    1. OmNom*

      I really hear this advice, but it sounded from the letter that LW2 was worried about letting customers down, which is a legitimate concern, even if it’s not their own fault. It’s especially uncomfortable if they are the customer-facing person and the customer doesn’t know that the delays and/or poor product are John’s fault, not the LW’s.

      1. Mad Scientist*

        Yeah, I’ve been in a similar situation with a coworker whose work is consistently late, sloppy, and/or incomplete (usually all three) by the time it reaches me, but letting the project fail would absolutely reflect more on me than it would on my coworker. My client doesn’t know the details of who’s helping me with each specific task. All they know is I’m the one who delivers the final product. It’s my professional reputation on the line if external deadlines are missed or if we submit a deliverable full of errors.

        And beyond that, I work in a field related to infrastructure and public health. Letting my projects fail would have real consequences for real people in ways that my conscience simply could not handle. So when I’m not getting what I need from a coworker, I feel like I have no choice but to step in and do things myself because the impact on the community matters more than my workplace frustrations. But it’s not exactly covering for someone as long as you make their manager aware.

      2. Mockingjay*

        OP 2 can’t be the single point preventing customer dissatisfaction.

        OP 2 – let John fail. Document the impact. Right now you’re fixing things so your manager isn’t going to act – the work is still getting done. You need to go a step further than Alison’s advice – flip every single instance of non-work, incorrect work, schedule slippage, etc. back to your manager Jane with a written statement each time of effect on cost, schedule, performance. Do NOT correct his work, do NOT offer solutions. Your manager needs to see how bad John’s performance – or nonperformance – is.

        I get how frustrating this kind of situation is – “yeah, it’s just easier to fix it myself.” (I’m in a role where 90% of my work depends on other’s inputs and contributions.) But if you keep fixing, it’s going to become part of your workload through insidious osmosis. Put up an impermeable barrier.

        1. MassMatt*

          I’ve been in this situation also and while at first it seemed like a coworker problem, really it was a manager problem.

          #2’s manager doesn’t have much urgency to fix issues w/ the coworker or fire them because LW #2 is editing their work and working hard to meet deadlines that coworker blithely ignores. Coworker cheerfully admits the problems and keeps right on acting the same way, because why shouldn’t they? They suffer no consequences for their shoddy work or poor communication.

          IMO projects are probably going to have to start failing and deadlines be missed before your manager bothers with dealing w/ the coworker. You need to make sure you do everything you need to do (and document it) so that it’s clear that the coworker (and their manager’s failure to manage them) is the issue.

          Maybe LW doesn’t want to let customers or other stakeholders down–a noble sentiment, but LW can’t be in a position where she’s responsible for this more than her boss is.

    2. Varthema*

      Mmm, this could be tricky since it sounds like these are LW’s projects. John is a blocker, but if projects are late or sloppy, that would reflect poorly on a project manager no matter whose fault that is.

      1. Allonge*

        Yes, this is only an option in cases where you are not responsible for an overall project or large parts of it (and even then…)

        Which is not to say that the ‘let them see the impact’ may not me something to try, but it’s not a universal solution either. I am also not willing to deliver bad work because someone else gets away with it.

        1. Pizza Rat*

          and you can’t let the customer see the impact in a case like this. It is tricky.

          I don’t have a lot of hope for John changing if this has been going on for a year.

      2. Lacey*

        Yes. If people who own the project aren’t getting me info on time to meet their deadline, I can let the project fail without a qualm.

        And sometimes they try to blame me, but fortunately there’s ample documentation of whose error it was.

        But if it’s MY project and part of my responsibility is to get the info they hold, but they won’t give it to me. I can’t just sit back and say, “Well so and so is a lazy stinker”
        That won’t be acceptable.

        1. Mad Scientist*

          Exactly. I don’t love having to step in and fix others’ mistakes but it’s my responsibility to make sure my projects get done correctly and on time, not to make sure a specific person does it.

      3. Artemesia*

        Then if she can’t let them fail, she needs to go nuclear at the 3 day turnaround deadline — hold a meeting with Loserboy and the boss with the goal of getting a sloppy draft on day 2 so there is time to meet again with the corrections and have him turn it around fore day 3 where she can do a final polish.

        But make it a major crisis for the manager who isn’t managing when it is due.

    3. Your Former Password Resetter*

      Seconding what the other people are saying.

      I would definitely put this in front of Jane and let them decide if you should drop the deadline, pass on something unfinished, or take some other step to prevent this from happening. At least that makes it a management decision, instead of you deciding to deliver subpar work.

    4. Expectations*

      Yes, this is unrealistic. I mostly like my job (except for the parts where I do other people’s work) and I’d like to keep it. So rather than letting major projects fail (which could bring the whole place down) I frustratingly do pieces of other people’s jobs so I get to keep the rest of my job (which is fairly unique and an amalgamation of a variety of things I love doing and that use my skills well).

      This is not hyperbole in my case, but it’s also true that in many cases the work being impeded is the responsibility of the asker not the person doing the blocking and ultimately it’s their responsibility to somehow get it done.

    5. Hyaline*

      There’s also a middle ground between “cover the problem” and “just let it fail” which is “make this person a problem for management.” Discuss the issue with the manager, then stop holding back on covering the problem. Copy their manager on every follow up request. Go to their manager when work is late. Take sloppy work to the manager instead of fixing it. It might sound impossible, but their manager may truly not realize how bad they are. And if they thought they could get away without managing, eventually your repeated (polite! understandable!) contacts will be more annoying than just managing the problem employee.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Keep in mind, if Jane likes John’s work in other areas, one possibility is that she could reassign your project support to someone else if you make it a visible enough issue. That could be great for you, OP! So it’s not just about getting John “in trouble” or trying to fix his various organizational failures or get Jane to fix them.

    6. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Yes, the document is already late when it’s late to LW, never mind when it reaches client.

    7. Person from the Resume*

      I would actually make it Jane’s problem. When John’s work is overdue (ie 3 days in advance of being sent to the customer. Send an unambiguously worded email to both John and Jane that his deliverable is overdue. And it needs to turned in ASAP.

      If the quality is poor, send it back to John (CCing Jane) saying the work is bad and needs to be fixed ASAP. And if it is still off poor quality either send it back again or fix it and email them both that it was poor quality and you had to fix it for him showing him what acceptable work was.

      I am mentally to tempted to start yelling a John to do his &^$&$ job. Be more professional, but call him out (CCing Jane) every time he is late or his work is poor.

      Depending on the office landscape, if Jane does nothing to make it better within a month start CCing Jane’s boss too.

      John is a problem, but so is Jane. Although I’m not entirely sure that the LW has made it clear how much of a problem John is. It sounds like she may have been covering for him a lot in order to get her job done and satisfy the customer.

    8. learnedthehardway*

      I would definitely start CC’ing the manager on all requests.

      Another thing the OP can do is to reiterate in an email what the plan is – at the OUTSET of the assignments. This gives a clear “start date” – showing that adequate notice was given. It lays out the priorities and deadlines clearly. You can cc your manager to show that you are on top of this and managing it. You can clearly put “please respond with any questions” on it, so John has no excuse for not getting the work done.

      1. Mad Scientist*

        It sounds like LW2 is already doing your second suggestion though. The problem coworker is apparently aware of deadlines months in advance but still misses them. I’ve had this happen even if/when I send multiple reminders leading up to a deadline.

        1. Artemesia*

          So at the 3 day deadline miss, you call a meeting of Jane, bad employee and yourself to go over the issue and its consequences.

        2. MassMatt*

          It’s a bad manager problem and not a bad coworker problem. Neither coworker nor manager have any incentive to change because LW is doing the work and the projects are getting done by deadline. This is only going to change if they feel consequences.

          It’s tricky because LW has to cover themselves, quite often a bad manager “writes off” a problem employee and fails to manage them, yet will go nuts if anyone else fails to cover for the problem employee.

    9. The Kulprit*

      I’ve been in the position of #2. I did adopt the “not my circus; not my monkeys — document to the moon” approach.

      I did quit eventually, because dealing with all this was so much extra aggravation and unpaid work, but I was protected by my paper trail. Its taken higher ups a while, but they are finally starting to see the degree of dysfunction around this person.

  10. RLC*

    Letter #2: You could be describing an employee I remotely supervised years ago! A number of his colleagues did exactly what Alison suggests and it helped me understand and address the issues (in his case: ignoring emails, producing sloppy work, creating distractions, missing deadlines). I suspected there were problems but had no idea how much it affected others until the colleagues laid it all out in detail (and the colleagues had been hesitant for a long time, concerned that they’d cause trouble for a person they liked). Jane needs to know the scope and seriousness of the situation to properly address it.

    1. linger*

      To be scrupulously fair, it is entirely possible that John’s work supporting OP2 and others outside his own department is not that large a priority within that department, and if so, maybe his manager is soft-pedaling because John’s work department-internal work is satisfactory.
      Nevertheless, John’s manager needs to be kept aware of the impact of John’s failings, in order to balance those priorities and reduce the overall impact (either by putting John on a PIP, or assigning backup assistance, and/or managing the expectations of department-external clients such as OP2).
      So the advice for OP2 is still the same: CC John’s manager in on further communications about task deadlines and status, so that John’s manager has the necessary information to manage John’s performance, in time to improve the outcome for OP2 (and others).

      1. bamcheeks*

        John and LW are both managed by Jane, though. If your direct report’s poor time management and organisation is causing problem for someone *in your own team*, there is no excuse for not acting.

        1. Expectations*

          Sure there can be, if the other tasks John is doing are higher priority. But a good boss will explain that to the person relying on John and also find alternate ways to get them what they need to be successful (or redefine it so it doesn’t require what John supplies).

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            ^^THIS^^
            Sometimes my company’s two “Johns” were badly over-scheduled with projects that had top priority as defined by upper management. People running “low-priority” projects were told by the department manager that their tasks could not be completed and were not scheduled in Jira, so they would have to find a workaround.

            And yet they kept trying to get the Johns to “just do it in down-time”–full-day tasks in a 150% over-committed Jira calendar. Instead of going to THEIR bosses and recommending that John’s department be given the additional resources they’d been denied.

            1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

              If that’s the cas then Jane needs to tell OP that. It doesn’t seem that something like that was conveyed to OP.

              OP needs a solution to the problem, not just being told I’m aware of it but I like his work on other things. Because she still needs the work done.

          2. bamcheeks*

            I was including that in “acting” — I didn’t just mean they should discipline John! Even if John is sufficiently successful at other parts of his role that Jane doesn’t want him to make this a higher priority, they should be looking at other ways to ameliorate the stress on LW.

      2. Lucci*

        After reading #2, my first thought was Jane and John are having an affair. I’ve seen it come down just like this so many times with a male boss and female subordinate that it’s automatically where my brain went – and just because the genders are reversed from the norm doesn’t mean it’s not possible or likely.

        1. Myrin*

          I mean, everything is possible, but it doesn’t sound like Jane is, IDK, passionately fighting to keep John on despite directions from her own boss, or staunchly minimising the problems with his work, or similar.
          This can much more easily be explained by the very common and very simple fact of
          1. Jane not actually realising how bad it is; sure, she got reports from OP and others, but I’ve met a lot of bosses who are simply in denial about that kind of thing as long as someone doesn’t impress upon them the actual seriousness in the same way Alison’s script does
          and/or
          2. Jane being conflict-avoidant which is a trait rampant in the general population but somehow and surprisingly especially in managers, it seems.

        2. Harper the Other One*

          That… seems like a strange conclusion. I think it’s much more likely that Jane is not fully aware of the impact this is having on OP’s work and is thinking “well, John’s good at X which is hard to hire for, so I’ll nudge him about better support for OP but I don’t really feel like disciplinary measures are necessary.” That’s why CC’ing Jane more frequently is such a good suggestion – it will illuminate the severity of the problem.

          1. bamcheeks*

            Or she’s aware but just not great at acting in difficult situations. In which case the CC advice is still good, because it makes NOT acting more annoying than doing something about it.

          2. Mockingjay*

            I responded elsewhere in this thread, this is what I also think. Right now OP 2 is fixing a lot of John’s work. Jane hears the complaints, but overall, the work is getting done, so she’s probably not inclined to do much. OP 2 needs to stop fixing and flip John’s problems back to Jane to solve.

        3. Person from the Resume*

          Nope! How many time does someone complain about a coworker, but the real problem is the manager doesn’t want to manage them because it’s hard, difficult, not fun to tell someone they’re doing a bad job, or John just doesn’t actually care and managing him is very difficult, they don’t want to have to fire a poor performer because it’s unpleasant or feels mean?

          Much more likely that managing is hard and the manager doesn’t want to do it.

          1. SarahKay*

            Seconding this. Managing well is tough!
            I was a manager for three years, hated that part of the job (did it, but hated it) and luckily got the option to make a sideways move and stop being a manager.

    2. Chief Bottle Washer*

      I worked with someone like John for a few years. I am still not sure what was going on with him, but like LW2, I tried to fix the problem myself, when really I needed to be going to his boss early and often. Unfortunately he could never get his act together and was eventually fired, but many of my projects took really bad hits before it happened.

      1. Sabrina*

        I flat out told my manager I wouldn’t work with my offices “John”. I said it was too time consuming and taking away from my other projects to an extent it was untenable, and the projects they were assigned that assisted my work needed to be redistributed. I know that’s not an option in many offices but it was doable in mine and it worked.

        They had a weird and completely lateral transfer a month, possibly at our managers encouragement.

  11. Observer*

    #1- Want to date the GM

    In addition to the points made, please realize that if you do what you suggested, you might find yourself being walked off the property without a reference – and possibly being unable to collect unemployment. Because in a company with decent security and good management, this woman is likely to report your behavior to security, and they *will* take it seriously.

    And if they do fire you over this, the Unemployment Insurance people will consider this firing for cause, and the misconduct being of a sort that the employer would not have had an obligation to “coach” you on, or warn you about.

    Here is what she and management are going to see:

    You waited for her to come in and then left your work to corner her in the car park and ask her out. And not just a really low key get to know you type outing, but a clearly romantic outing (walk on the beach?!) that assumes a really high level of closeness (birthday with you). That’s stalkerish and creepy.

    I’m sure that when you read this, you are going to be responding “No, that’s not how I mean it!” But that does not really matter. For one thing, that is how it is going to be seen by pretty much anyone. For another, walks on the beach and birthday lunch with someone are things that one does with a romantic partner or close friend. And you barely even know her! This really *is* way over the top.

    1. Ellis Bell*

      I would really counsel OP to check out Dr Nerdlove, because they’ve fallen into the trap of thinking about only about their side, their goal instead of looking at this as a basic human interaction incredibly badly. To quote the good doctor, “There’s no social calibration, no attempt to read the room and ask whether this is an appropriate time, or even consider whether the person they’re approaching even wants to talk to anyone”. The fact that OP is failing to see things like that a) this is their boss, and b) Yeah the details are overwrought; “birthday” suggests an uncomfortable level of romantic expectation that even a woman outside a work might react really negatively to.

      1. David*

        Hmm… while a lot of the advice from Dr. Nerdlove is potentially useful, I’ve also seen some really problematic stuff on the site. Like, if I remember correctly, the thing that got me to stop reading was the suggestion to park yourself on a street corner for a few hours and ask out every woman who walks by. I feel like anyone who doesn’t have the sense to realize that is extremely inappropriate is probably not someone to be taking advice from. So I’d say to the OP: take it with a grain of salt, or at least be prepared to apply some critical thinking (e.g. who else gets hurt if I do this) to separate the good advice from the bad.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          I would say that is wildly at odds with the site advice. Which would be more:
          • Figure out which social situations are open to chatting with strangers and which are not.
          • The best way to get better at chatting with your romantic targets is to get better at chatting with all humans.

          1. Voluptuousfire*

            Agreed. I’ve been reading Dr. Nerd Love for well over 12 years now and that is so offbrand for what Harris would put out there.

            I mean, he did gain a lot of his own experience through studying and pick up, but that was many many many moons ago.

    2. Your Former Password Resetter*

      This. You’re going to look like a dangerous creep if you try to force a relationship like this, in any scenario. Doing it at work with a manager just means the bar is much higher for acceptable behaviour, but this wouldn’t go well with just about anyone.

    3. Loose Socks*

      A man followed me out to my car from the gym once and it absolutely freaked me out. I told the owner of the gym (small, locally owned) and he immediately pulled up the footage and closed out his membership.

      Never, never, never follow a woman to her car.

      1. ampersand*

        I had a guy follow me home from a store once when I was a teenager, and I will never forget the terror I felt being followed by this guy who was apparently interested in me, had already cornered me in public, and wouldn’t take no for an answer.

        Do not follow a woman to her car. Do not wait for and approach anyone in a car park to ask them out. Men truly have no idea how intimidating and scary they can be.

        1. Storm in a teacup*

          I’ve had this happen a few times sadly.
          The worst was once walking home from the tube and a guy started following me and when I ignored him he started shouting at me for being rude when he was trying to be friendly and it must be because I’m racist towards Africans.
          Note: I’m a woman of colour myself whose family are from Africa. I’m also short and it was getting dark and he is a stranger.

          The entitlement some men have – the mind boggles truly

      2. not nice, don't care*

        If he does follow his target to her car, I hope she bear sprays him into the next county. And smiles while doing it.

    4. Sloanicota*

      Yeah, I do agree with the others telling him to leave this woman alone, but at the very least, have a much lower-pressure goal in mind. Like, without “cornering” her at the Christmas party, see if you can introduce yourself again and exchange a few pleasantries. Stop. That’s the end of that goal. Do not do anything else. If she’s interested in getting to know you better, she’ll find a way to let you know, and anything else will have to flow from that.

      1. Smurfette*

        I don’t think so. Brian doesn’t understand boundaries so it’s best for everyone if he stays away from her.

      2. Jellyfish Catcher*

        What!? DON’T. Any woman will sense that you‘re overly invested with a fantasy about her
        and it will come across as creepy.

      3. Observer*

        see if you can introduce yourself again and exchange a few pleasantries.

        No, not even that. I wold say that in any case. Because Her position *IS* above him in the chain of command, which makes the whole thing inappropriate to start with.

        Bit for *this* situation, it’s an *especially* bad piece of advice. This is someone who is capable of building a whole romantic relationship based one on conventionally polite interaction in the workplace. So, someone with absolutely *no* ability to accurately gauge someone’s reaction. And also someone who thinks that following someone to the parking lot / waiting for someone there is not problematic. Which means that his idea of “not cornering” is likely to be widely and wildly out of line with what pretty much anyone else might think.

      4. Elizabeth West*

        There is no goal here. This is the manager. She will not date a subordinate, has given no indication of being open to anything at all, and if Brian keeps trying, he WILL be fired. He’s warehouse and therefore easily replaceable.

      5. Coffee Protein Drink*

        A relationship with the General Manager outside of work should not be a goal at all!

        It’s a seriously career-limiting move at the very least. Rules and protocols against dating in your chain of command exist for a reason. And this is before we address that this woman has shown no indication that she is the slightest bit interested.

      6. fhqwhgads*

        IFF this were not a person from work and only a casual acquaintance, this suggestion for the Christmas party could be a good example of a recalibration in terms of “what is a reasonable next thing to think of doing when interested in someone and wanting to determine if they show any interest”.
        BUT for a coworker, it’s not a good approach. For a higher up at work it is also not a good approach. Those people are off the table and that is a very very very important lesson to learn given the contents of the letter.

    5. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Yeah, in addition to all the advice here, asking someone out on a first date on your birthday is way too much. First dates should be very casual, and birthday celebrations are not generally casual affairs. It’s not quite up there with inviting someone to your family Christmas or a wedding as a first date, but think of it this way: if she says yes and you do go out on your birthday, you will remember it for years to come, because when someone says, “How did you celebrate your 25th birthday?” or whatever, you’ll be like, “Oh, I went out with my great-grandboss” but if you just go out on some random Wed night, you won’t think, “Oh, today is the 3rd anniversary of my date with great-grandboss” every year when it comes up again. It might be romantic to think that if you wind up in a relationship together, your first date was on your birthday, but would you hold it against someone who was otherwise a great match and completely head over heels in love with you if your first date was on some random Wed night? Try not to place too much importance on how romantic a calendar date is, because in the grand scheme of things, a actual calendar date is pretty unimportant vis a vis how a relationship turns out.

      Dating advice for all the uninitiated: keep early dates casual! I got so weirded out on a first date once where the guy mentioned he was going to look at condos the next day and invited me to come along. Um, no, dude, because a) I don’t want to go along with him to help him find a place to live, that’s a really personal thing to do and b) I sure as heck didn’t want any real estate agents to think we were looking for a place to live as a couple, since we sure as heck weren’t a couple (and I was pretty sure even after one date that we never would be a couple).

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Addendum: I re-read the letter and realized he meant for the first date to be casual but the second date to be on the birthday. I feel like that’s worse, though, because it’s really weird that you’re already planning a second date when you haven’t even spoken to her, like, ever. Not that you should be planning any dates, of course, but either way, as a PSA: birthdays are not casual dates, so save them for after you’ve been seriously dating someone for longer than a few weeks, mkay?

      2. MigraineMonth*

        I once asked a guy if he wanted to go out to a casual place for a first date. He said yes, but decided instead that we should go to a fancy steakhouse and he insisted on paying. It was pretty immediately uncomfortable, and we never had a second date.

        Also, I’m vegetarian.

  12. Porch Screens*

    LW #1 – Others have already given you plenty of good reasons why you should leave this woman alone. I would also gently suggest thinking about why it is that a single smile from someone you don’t even really know has led you to become so invested in what are some fairly detailed and personal wishes. I get that it can be difficult since most of us spend a lot of time at work and with our coworkers, so it can be easy and tempting to seek social and romantic fulfillment in that sphere. But that’s not what work is for and you would fare much better if you invest that time and energy into seeking fulfilling relationships and activities outside of work.

    1. Coffee Protein Drink*

      There are men who think eye contact is flirting and get all hot and bothered. Then they call women teases because they weren’t trying to convey interest.

  13. Kella*

    OP1: In addition to there being serious problems with asking out/dating a coworker, and even more dating a *manager* there’s another problem that probably has never been flagged for you, in your message.

    When you date someone, you are spending time with them, sharing interests, and aligning and integrating values. Do the two of you share any hobbies? Any life philosophies? Do you have compatible senses of humor and preferences in media or food? My guess is that you don’t know the answer to those questions, given that since being hired you have had no opportunities to talk to her at all. My guess is, the feeling created by seeing her smile (and perhaps her appearance in general) lead you to fill in those blanks. You may have thought, if she made you feel that way, well then of COURSE her interests and values will line up with yours!

    But the truth is you do not know this person. You know very little about her and so you don’t actually know if she is someone you would enjoy dating. The thing you know is that it makes you feel good when you see her smile. That’s lovely and a relationship involves far more than staring at someone’s smile.

    To be clear, this is not encouragement to go find out this information about her. This is pointing out that you are taking an emotion and extrapolating it into a vision of a person that isn’t real. And that you are jumping on such an emotion, from someone you met at *work* suggests that maybe you need to increase your opportunities for meeting (and actually getting to know) people in actual social contexts.

    1. Daria grace*

      This is a very good point.

      Not that any of this would be okay if they appeared to have matching demographics, but her entirely different level in the company means that a wide age and interest gap is quite likely

    2. GammaGirl1908*

      As I often have put a similar sentiment, people often assume that because someone looks like their ideal, they must **be** their ideal. That’s not how this works. She has a whole personality and likes and dislikes and quirks and habits and interests and life that all might be the complete opposite of what you want.

      That’s on top of all of the other massive wrongness of asking out the general manager of your workplace when you have zero indication that she has any interest in you. It is not worth risking your career to make a romantic advance in this situation. Do not do this thing.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        LM Montgomery outlined this brilliantly in her Anne of Green Gables books where Anne goes to college and meets Roy, the romantic ideal of her fantasies. It takes her way too long to realize that they actually have nothing in common, but as she puts it, “I thought I must be in love because he was my dark eyed ideal.”

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          That’s actually really awesome and pretty modern, as an plot point.

          I think the LW would do well to just assume this of the GM, to assume she has some belief he finds abhorrent or that they are fundamentally incompatible in some way (like if he dreams of a large family, assume she is adamantly childfree or vice versa; if he is an introvert, assume she is somebody who loves partying and would want them to be out every evening or if he is somebody who loves partying, assume she is somebody whose idea of a relaxing evening is donning her PJs and sitting in front of the TV with a takeaway) or that she has some really annoying habit that would drive him mad.

          Keep his focus on the fact that she might be very wrong for him and he might be really disappointed if he got to know her because he’s built her up into his perfect partner and might not like who she really is.

    3. Ellis Bell*

      I think your second paragraph is key. Some people think that they have to be the ones to unilaterally create a relationship out of the ether, be the ones to make it happen; this leads to either projecting a lot of your wishlist onto a stranger or trying to artificially find connections by researching who they are. Which, even if you have the keys to their personal social media is going to be a very edited version of reality. You can’t just make a stranger into a non stranger like that, and you really can’t do it with a colleague, and you really, really can’t with a superior. Years ago, someone told me the best way to get over a crush was to really get to know them, but I like your prescription better. Get to know some other people for real.

    4. Myrin*

      Let me enthusiastically agree to all of this as someone who actually has tendencies like OP, only platonically (I’m on the ace spectrum). I’ve had that part of myself on a very tight leash ever since I was a kid because I know it makes people uncomfortable and I don’t want to make people uncomfortable, but it still drives me sometimes in the way I try to pursue friendships based on very little.
      (To be clear, I’m sure that from the outside, this just looks like a normal “trying to get to know you better to see if we would be compatible as friends”; the OP-like tendencies are mostly in my head in that I, too, can get really ahead of myself in my own mind with very little to go on initially.)

      The problem is that I’m apparently quite likeable and am the kind of person who gets along very easily with a variety of different people so I’m generally successful in creating a closer relationship. BUT then once I actually get to know the other person better, I often find out that our opinions and personalities don’t align at all on anything deeper than a superficial level. So I’m suddenly in a situation where I realise I don’t actually like the other person all that much and now I have to navigate extricating myself from that situation of my own making which is Not Fun, especially when meanwhile, the other person feels like you’ve really clicked and continues to want to do more stuff with you.

    5. Insufficient Sausage Explainer*

      THANK you! All this was bothering me, but I couldn’t have explained it half as clearly as you have.

      1. bamcheeks*

        You’re not “supposed” to get to know this woman. There are literally dozens of women worldwide who are not your manager, go and join some fun activities or download a dating app and get to know some of them instead.

      3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        You AREN’T. She’s at work to WORK, not to date. Leave her alone. News flash: Those rules that say you can’t ask her out in the office? They aren’t location specific. Stepping outside the building doesn’t mean the rules don’t apply anymore. DO NOT ASK OUT YOUR MANAGER – or really any of your coworkers – but especially not anyone who you report to or who reports to you, directly or indirectly, EVER.

        The fact that after dozens of comments explaining in various degrees of specificity why this is a terrible and not-ok idea, you are still doubling down on it, tells me that either this is a fake letter and you’re just trolling, or you seriously have no notion of how to behave appropriately around women at work and are a problem in the making.

      4. AnneCordelia*

        You’re not. It’s totally inappropriate. Go find someone else, on a dating site, at church, at a social club or activity, in a bar —but NOT at work. She is off limits.

      5. BrightLights*

        You’re not.

        She’s not here to be friends. She’s here to do her job. She may have friendly and collegial relationships with people at work, but she is not looking for friendships with the people in her management chain if she is a professional.

        This is the third or fourth “so how do I get to have a relationship with her” comment I’ve read in response to people telling you NOT to have a relationship with her. The answer to your question is “believe women when they tell you no.”

      6. londonedit*

        You’re not. Women don’t exist simply to be decorative to men, and men don’t have an inalienable right to ask out any woman who happens to take their fancy. She’s at work. She’s there to do her job. Please just leave her alone.

      7. Learn ALL the things*

        You seem really fixated on this one woman who is very, very off limits to you. I would recommend that you apply Kella’s advice to other women who are not your coworkers or managers. Join a group for a hobby you like and get to know people, not for the purpose of asking them out, just for the purpose of knowing them. When you form actual connections with people, it’s easier to tell if they want to go out with you.

      8. WellRed*

        Brian, please! For your sake and hers, listen to what we are saying. Let this go! She’s not interested in you. Call a friend and make plans to hang out with your friends and forget about attempting to ask out the GM.

      9. YetAnotherAnalyst*

        If you really can’t get her out of your mind, here’s what you do – you get another job. You get another job, you leave the warehouse behind, and you throw yourself into work. If it’s really meant to be, you’ll be browsing the cereal aisle some fifteen years in the future, and a woman will ask you to move your cart. You’ll oblige, and then she’ll look at you properly for the first time and say, “I can’t believe it! You’re Brian, aren’t you? You probably don’t remember me, but I was your GM all those years ago at Warehouse! I always wanted to get in touch, but HR didn’t have your phone number. I’m sure you’re busy, but… well, do you want to meet up for coffee sometime and we can catch up? Maybe Saturday?”
        At that point – and ONLY at that point – you can try to get to know her.

      12. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Hi Brian, just so you know: love at first sight is not a thing. You might think you’re totally in love with her but the fact is, you’ve never had a conversation with her, never even been in a work meeting with her, never learned anything about her. You think she looks pretty when she smiles, that’s it. THAT IS NOT LOVE. That’s not even a crush, that’s just admiring a pretty face. When she sees you loading trucks, she doesn’t come over to say hi, she goes up the stairs to her office. You know why? Because she is at work to do her job. Full stop, end of story.

        Brian, do you have any hobbies? If not, are there any hobbies you might want to take up? Highly recommend you take up a hobby or two, join a group or class or sportball team where you can learn some skills and meet people, and stop obsessing about someone at your workplace that cannot have a relationship with you. I repeat, she cannot have a relationship with you. It doesn’t matter how you feel about her, your feelings are irrelevant if the other person in the situation is in a position where they cannot or do not reciprocate. That’s what consent is all about. In order for a relationship to happen, both parties have to opt into the relationship; you cannot force someone to enter into a relationship unwillingly.

        If you cannot accept that someone will not consent to going on a date with you or being in a relationship with you, then you are going to get into serious trouble either at your workplace or in future dating situations where someone turns you down. Please learn how to gracefully accept no, and in this case, don’t even bother trying to get a no from her personally, because here the answer is an absolute no because of her being higher up in the chain of command at your workplace.

  14. Literally a Cat*

    OP1, I’m really glad that you asked this, before just jumped right in. Sincerely, being aroace and friendly in general, this is almost my worst fear, except you found good advice on why this is a bad idea. I hope you the best in future finding of a partner, who is enthusiastically interested in you romantically, and not in a professional chain of command situation.

    1. Daria grace*

      Indeed. The OP for #1 is getting a lot of justified pushback for their ideas but that they had the wisdom and bravery to get a second opinion before acting is really good. I hope they’ll be able to learn from the uncomfortable experience this comment section likely is and be able to form an approach to relationship seeking that’s healthy for them and their prospective partners

      1. Mutually supportive*

        Except they didn’t have the wisdom or bravery to ask *whether* to do it, they are only asking *how* to do it.

        But I agree it’s good that they asked “how” because now they have all this feedback.

        2. Liane*

          And OP1/Brian is STILL asking how to ask out his GM! About every other thread for question 1 there’s Brian asking us how he can get to know/ask out his GM.

          So, in my opinion, he’s gone from “Smart enough to ask someone before doing Really Bad Thing” straight to “having so little sense – &/or being delusional enough – to keep asking until he gets the answer her wants.”

      2. Seymour Butts*

        That’s extremely generous, Daria grace. They actually wrote to ask how to circumvent the policy they are 100% aware of.

  15. Chip the Teacup*

    LW1, the reason why *anyone* who is at work smiles at *anyone* (be it a customer or a colleague) is because it’s polite and cordial to do so. Nothing more, nothing less.

    And even ignoring all of Alison’s points…you know absolutely nothing about this woman. “This person has a pretty smile” is not a good basis for a relationship or even a date.

    1. goddessoftransitory*

      I apparently want to date/marry every single one of my coworkers as I have smiled at all of them at some point. It’s more complicated because I’m already married to one of them!

  16. Chip the Teacup*

    LW2, I agree with Alison that you need to make things clearer to your manager. I know you think that surely she must know, but it’s possible she just doesn’t see how *big* the problem is because you keep fixing it.

    I also recently dragged a situation into the limelight that involved a colleague my team had had issues with before and whom we’d complained about before, but until I brought it out in the open they had no idea how *bad* it was (it helps that this person posted in the department wide Slack channel how terribly they’d broken something that is used by the entire department but mostly my team and stated that they’d debug it “during the course of the day” when my team was in the busy period.)They did not like me after I pointed out for everyone to see that they’d basically rendered my team jobless and even tried to complain to management about me, but other team leads jumped to my defense. I think that really opened management eyes to how bad the situation was and I get the feeling this person is now kept under close scrutiny.

  17. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    #1 Made me shudder.
    It’s worse just because she’s the GM, but it’s a huge jump to start thinking about romantic dates with anyone at work just because they once smiled at you.
    That’s being a pest, a creep, the type of men whom most women dislike, avoid and sometimes fear.
    Don’t be that guy.

    In a decent workplace that’ll get you a warning first about your conduct and then if you pester the same woman again or different ones, you’ll eventually get fired. With this being the GM, firing would likely come much sooner.

    And not just at your work, but leave women alone who smile at you because it’s part of their work to be superficially friendly, e.g. waitstaff, supermarket till, delivery person, hotel reception, gym desk.
    Again, don’t be that guy.

    1. on earth!*

      i disagree that it’s worse because she’s the GM, it actually seems like thankfully for her, she would have a lot of agency and power to put a stop to this, that other women (who aren’t quite as high up in the hierarchy) might not have had.
      It doesn’t excuse it of course, but it makes me feel that she’s a bit safer than she might have been otherwise.

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        I feel like it’s less worse that he’s focused on someone well above him in the hierarchy because of the power issues you mentioned, but that’s like saying that it’s better that sandwich A has only one species of animal poop, unlike sandwich B, which contains at least two. Both sandwiches are not ok, zero is the correct number of species of animal poop we want in a sandwich, and so while true it doesn’t lead to useful feedback for debugging the actual problem and making better choices in the future.

    2. Smurfette*

      And this is why women stop smiling at men in the workplace. Because there are certain men who will think “she likes me! She’s interested in me!” and then make a nuisance of themselves.

      But if you don’t smile, you’re called “cold”, “rude”, “unfriendly”, and much much worse.

    3. MigraineMonth*

      You *might* get a warning first.

      LW, if you follow the GM to her car or wait for her at her, there is a high probability she will call security and you will be immediately fired and escorted off the premises. No warnings, no unemployment, no good references.

      Same if she says “no” and you respond with anything other than polite acceptance. If you ask why not, badger her, curse or pout, there is a high probability security/HR will escort you out on the spot.

      Whatever fantasy you have in your head, LW, the most likely result of continuing with your plan is that you will have either a warning or firing for sexual harassment on your record. Leave that woman alone.

  18. a commenter*

    #1 – Bad Idea. Never ask out anyone who can’t cleanly reject you without creating awkwardness and discomfort. Leaving aside the fact that your job most likely clearly prohibits it, it is never a good idea to proposition someone when they can’t reject you without making things awkward.

    This is not only for their benefit, but for yours as well.

    1. KateM*

      Indeed, the fact that “office protocol and company policy won’t let me ask her these questions” upstairs makes it VERY likely that the job in fact prohibits it also in car park.

  19. Brain the Brian*

    LW2’s coworker sounds like he spends most of his day goofing off instead of working. If he happens to be in one of his five-minute work spurts when he gets an email, he’ll answer it immediately, but otherwise, it sounds like he’s lazy and just doesn’t care.

    LW2, take AAM’s advice and start cc’ing Jane on everything. I bet John’s responses will be a lot quicker and his work better quality if he knows his boss is copied.

    1. Paint N Drip*

      I wondered about the laziness angle, but also wondered if John is so consistently behind that new work is still at the bottom of a fairly large to do list – you can be working full steam ahead and stay behind. I suppose it doesn’t REALLY matter either way and the same advice should be helpful – increase the accountability.

  20. dogwoodblossom*

    I once had a scary situation arise from smiling at the wrong stranger on a nice day (I got to safety) and the worst part is that afterwards you think “Well I guess I just shouldn’t smile anymore.”

    1. Literally a Cat*

      I still can’t control my face well because I’m a naturally smiley person. Thank you, face masks. Those experiences really wears you down.

    2. Happy*

      Yes! I hate that feeling.

      I’ve been there thinking, what a wonderful day! I’m happy! How nice this stranger is to open the door for me! (or whatever) and then later go spiraling into thinking about what you should have done differently and whether you should have assumed everyone around you would be awful.

    3. anon for this*

      I’ve been stalked THREE TIMES because three separate men decided, on the basis of being preoccupied with a 95% imaginary version of me, that I must desperately want to be in a relationship with them.

      The truth is that I didn’t want to be in a relationship with either of those men even before they started behaving so badly, and neither one was someone I thought of as a potential friend either. They needed to find women who weren’t ImaginaryMe!

      I recommend the Captain Awkward post on how overrated persistence is (#1009).

    4. Rebecca*

      I didn’t just think “I just shouldn’t smile anymore”, I actively stopped. My Resting Bitch Face is cultivated. In my early twenties, when I travelled, it was like I was a magnet for every young man who wanted to chat on the bus, metro, airport, hostel.

      Making friends with strangers stopped being cute and lost its appeal very, very quickly, but I learned that it’s not enough to just not invite it – I had to actively repel it. It helps that I don’t look like I’m in my early twenties any more, but not smiling or making accidental eye contact is still second nature now.

    5. Friendly Office Bisexual*

      Oh yeah, I straight up just don’t make small talk with dudes anymore because so many of them take it as an invitation to harass me. Wish it were not the case! I love being friendly with people, but I don’t smile and I don’t make small talk for my own safety.

    6. iglwif*

      I’m glad you are safe.

      When I first moved to my current city for university, I was constantly being stopped on campus and proselytized to and invited to bible studies and so on. (I am Jewish. I was way beyond not interested in this.) It got so bad that I started giving people a fake phone number and name to end the conversation, since it seemed like nothing else would.

      Finally I realized why I was targeted so much more than anyone else I knew: I was continuing to follow the public norms of the place I came from, which included making eye contact and smiling at people I passed as I walked along. I stopped doing that and was suddenly accosted much, much less by proselytizing weirdos.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Yeah, I find that I am approached way less often now by people begging or collecting for charities (the pushy ones – I have no problem with people begging or collecting for charity if they just ask, but I’m talking the people who follow you down the street or who try to make you feel guilty if you refuse – “but don’t you want to reduce cancer deaths/help the homeless?”) and so on now than when I was a college student. Which makes me mad because an 18 or 20 year old is far less well able to afford to sign up to contribute x amount per month to y worthy cause than most people in their 40s so they are the last people that these people should be targetting.

        But yeah, at that age, I was still of the mentality that it was “rude” to ignore somebody, particularly somebody older than you, that you were supposed to “reply when you were spoken to and be polite,” whereas now I have no problem walking eyes ahead and am well aware that if somebody says “help the homeless” and I say “sorry” and walk on and they start following me or try to engage in debate, they are the one being rude. As a teenager, I didn’t have the same social skills or confidence in my interactions with them.

  21. Richard Hershberger*

    LW5: “Legal assistant” is a surprisingly vague job title. Your firm may or may not require (or at least want) some sort of certification. Looking into this would be a good preliminary step,

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Good point. Another suggestion is to talk to your current manager; they opened up the conversation by telling LW5 to share what other positions they would be interested in. So something like,

      “Hello Manager, you said I could share if I saw other positions at the firm I would be interested in. Legal assistant seems like it could be a good fit for me because X, Y, and Z (e.g., MLIS). What sorts of qualifications would the firm be looking for? And when would it make sense for me to throw my hat in the ring if a position opened up?”

      So, not asking about this particular role, but about legal assistant roles generally.

  22. Jellyfish Catcher*

    #1: I once was exactly the women in the same situation that you’re planning. A man at work, who I barely knew, approached me and said he “knew”that I liked him – because I once smiled at him.
    It felt creepy as fuck. He never asked again, but I distrusted and avoided him after that, as
    it was so inappropriate.

    What men sometimes forget is that women have to assess men that they don’t know as to whether the guy will act appropriately and be a decent person.

    It will ruin your reputation at the very least, and very possibly get you fired.

    3

  23. Coffee*

    LW1: sounds like you don’t even know if your big boss is single. If other commenters haven’t convinced you yet, think about why someone so awesome would be single? If she isn’t in committed relationship it’s because she doesn’t want one.

    1. Seymour Butts*

      Well, not necessarily. She might be single, actively looking for a partner, and interested in someone entirely different from the LW.

      She might enjoy casual dating and sex with different people, and not be interested in the LW.

      She may not be awesome, she might be an absolute nightmare to date.

      The LW has no idea because LW knows nothing whatsoever about her.

      2. Meep*

        Completely missing the point on trying to get Brian to leave her alone there by applying a different tactic, friend.

    2. allathian*

      Nah, even conventionally attractive people can have trouble finding the right person for a variety of reasons. Smart, successful, and conventionally attractive women can have problems finding someone who sees the whole person rather than just the beautiful shell. Lots of men are also intimidated by strong women who seem to have it all.

      Or the attractive women might be so used to attracting people with their looks that they aren’t the nicest person to be in a relationship with, simply because they’re so used to getting their own way with men just by flirting a bit. Those are the ones who usually get short shrift from less attractive women because they never bother to be charming to them, and who tend to get desperate to look younger than their age because they have nothing going for them except their looks.

      Obviously my comment isn’t intended as encouragement for the LW!

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        And let us not forget — women who men are attracted to might not be attracted to men at all.

        1. WellRed*

          None of this matters. OP isn’t getting it in the starkest of terms. Don’t provide possibilities for him to mull.

          1. Observer*

            None of this matters. OP isn’t getting it in the starkest of terms. Don’t provide possibilities for him to mull.

            My kingdom for a like button.

            But seriously. This. Completely and totally.

            This manager’s relationship status is not relevant, nor the reason for whatever it is. Because the reality is that the LW / Brian is still trying to figure out how he can “get to know her”. no one needs to give him more reasons to try to get to know her.

      2. Jellyfish Catcher*

        That is just speculation. Let’s stick to Do Not Bother Her! The LW clearly doesn’t need any comments that could even vaguely encourage him.

    3. Cordelia*

      that doesn’t make any difference whatsoever, and is an unhelpful line of thought for LW to go down – now he’s going to be trying to find out details about her past and present relationships, thinking that this is relevant to whether he should ask her out.
      And lots of awesome people are single!

    4. But Of Course*

      A) he has no idea whether she’s awesome, because he’s never spoken to her;
      B) this reeks STRONGLY of “don’t encroach on another man’s property, bro.” Her relationship status is completely irrelevant to whether or not a stalkery, creepy coworker should ask her out because she once smiled at him.

    5. Mutually supportive*

      Not true. I’m awesome, I’m also single, female, competent and in my 40’s. Just haven’t met the right person yet.

      (The right person is not someone in my downline at work, or who hangs about waiting for me in carparks, to clarify for the OP.)

  24. Jellyfish Catcher*

    Noooo. I once had a guy at work, that I did’t know well, say just that: he told me that he knew I wanted him, because I smiled at him. He apologized, after I literally backed away from him, but I never felt comfortable around him again.

    3. I Have RBF*

      … he told me that he knew I wanted him, because I smiled at him.

      Ewww! Creeptastic.

      Note to everyone: A smile is not an invitation for a relationship. Really. Especially when the person is working – a smile is just expected behavior, not an invitation or an indication of interest.

  25. McThrill*

    LW 1 – others have already outlined why asking your manager out is a good idea. I know nothing about you other than the letter you wrote in, but a couple things stood out to me in addiiton to the bad judgement of attempting to ask out your manager (especially when company policy forbids it)
    First, showing up unannounced in a car park to meet someone with romantic intentions is 100% creepy vibes and will absolutely have ramifications for you, both in your personal and professional relationships. Do not do this.
    Second, planning a first date with someone on your birthday is also a very weird vibe. I would be extremely weirded out if the very first time I ever spent alone with someone they sprang on me that it was their birthday. Why are they not spending today with friends and people they care about? Do they expect something from me? Is this an attempt to leverage getting something they want out of this date?
    If these two things are how you often attempt to approach women, or how you think women would want to be approached, you should definitely take some time to consider why you feel that way, and seek out some outside opinions (preferably through therapy or counseling) as to how others would feel if you put them in these situations (“these situations” being – springing your romantic attentions on people while they are alone in a carpark, using your birthday as a way to get a first date, and attempting to ask out someone who manages you at work who has shown no interest in you outside of a professional capacity).

    1. londonedit*

      Yes. Firstly, please leave this woman alone, but secondly please leave this woman alone and please, for the love of all that is holy, do not – I repeat do NOT – approach her or any other woman in a car park.

      1. Learn ALL the things*

        As someone who has been followed to my car on the work parking garage by somebody I had been polite to who took that as his cue that we were soulmates, I agree wholeheartedly with this. It’s one of the scariest things that’s ever happened to me. Do not follow women to their car to ask them out. Just do not.

        1. OP1, seriously, don't*

          I was once followed to my car by a guy I’d had absolutely zero interaction with – he was behind me in line at the library and then followed me to my car to tell me I “seemed nice.” OP1 – it was not flattering and it did not feel good. It was scary. When someone knows nothing about you and they follow you to talk to you, it doesn’t feel like “oh, what a random and serendipitous connection!” It feels like they (1) have ulterior motives, (2) don’t care about you as a person, and most importantly (3) have no respect for your feelings, boundaries, or comfort level.

          Don’t ask this woman out in any circumstances, but *especially* do not approach her while she’s alone at her car.

          1. londonedit*

            Yep, I was once followed around the supermarket by a guy who then tried to corner me outside to ask me out. No thank you. Men, please, do not do this. Women don’t find it endearing, they find it terrifying.

  26. Party Pooper*

    OP1, please don’t ask any woman out to celebrate your birthday unless you’re already in a relationship with her. Celebrating your birthday makes it all about you instead of getting to know each other. It’s also emotional blackmail that will backfire. I was the victim of such an invitation once, and I felt trapped, miserable, and icked out the whole time. I resented the pressure of having to go on a birthday lunch. After the longest hour of my life was over, I did my best to avoid that man forever. Before that, we’d actually been friendly acquaintances for some time. It would’ve been fine if he’d asked me to a regular lunch, but the whole birthday thing ruined it (We were coworkers who weren’t on the same team. As others have said, avoid hanging around parking lots and asking out people in the command chain).

    1. McThrill*

      This was the vibe I was hoping to convey in my comment but lacked the (unfortunate) experience to accurately convey. “But it’s my biiiirthday!!!” is not a great vibe to exude even when you’re surrounded by your best friends, don’t put a woman who barely knows you into that situation.

  27. Despachito*

    OP1, a lot of people explained why yours is a horrible idea and you should absolutely NOT do this.

    I fully agree with them, don’t do this. But as someone mentioned too it may be worth the while looking at the cause WHY you infer such a lot from a simple smile. Do people not smile at you at all? How are your overall relationships with people? Are you very lonely and suffering for that?

    If you really receive so few signs of affection or sympathy from other people, might there be a reason for that? Is it possible (and I am speculating here so please feel free to disregard this if I am too off base) that you are desperate for human closeness but are struggling how to navigate social clues so that you come across as needy/creepy and people run away from you? If so, it would be absolutely worth working on with a professional to help you overcome this and learn how to approach people in a way more appealing to them.

    This manager would still be outside the realm of possible for you but it can help you find a more realistic approach to people and make them feel better in your company (and therefore more prone to seek it). I wish you the best of luck in that.

    1. Hildegard VonBingen*

      This is some of the best advice I’ve read concerning OP1’s question. I hope “Brian” takes your advice to heart and acts on it.

    2. goddessoftransitory*

      I agree with this 100%. I have known people that basically destroyed most of their chances to make any kind of connection because they were so desperate for said connections that they overloaded even the slightest interaction with a level of intimacy and infodumping that turned off the very people they had hoped to attract.

  28. References*

    LW4, you need to have referrals in place before you apply if you’re going to use them. I think you may be mixing up the concepts of referrals and references. Referrals are, from the company’s perspective, supposed to be people who either tell you the job exists or encourage you to apply for it. People who support your application later in the process fall into the references bucket to support your ability to do the job. Referrals often become automatic references after the initial referral process, but that’s at the company’s discretion.

    Many applications have a spot for listing any referrals. If you don’t list them, they can’t be an official part of the process in many places – hiring processes don’t allow it.

    This is, in part, because many companies pay a finder fee for referrals. The process for triggering this is through the application and it is meant to incentivize bringing good, partially vetted candidates to the funnel. These companies are often strict to prevent any confusion or deliberate gaming of the system that leads to an employee thinking they should be paid this finder fee when the company already knows about them through an application. It’s similar to being submitted for the same contract by two recruiters, each of which likely expects to be paid if you get the job (although there’s a lot less money involved). Some companies have the same response – reject the application to avoid any potential disagreement over finder fees.

    How the referrals are used also varies a lot from company to company. In some cases, they will just be a name on the application. In some they will be expected to provide a full fledged reference and address the candidate’s strength, weaknesses, fit, and suitability for the specific job.

    So referrals are great, but they have to happen first, and they should be from people with enough knowledge of you to provide the reference when that’s expected. Otherwise you’re potentially jeopardizing your candidacy not helping it.

    1. Spamalot*

      I got my last job because a referral + reference got my application out of the hiring manager’s spam folder. It wasn’t just a reference, because my ex-and-future coworker got a referral bonus after I started the job. That said, I didn’t get any response to my application, neither rejection nor otherwise, so it’s not quite LW4’s situation.

  29. N C Kiddle*

    I initially thought “works at the office where I work” referred to somewhere that rents out workspaces, so that she was part of the administration of the workspaces and LW just worked in one of them. Already a fairly bad idea to bother her when she’s trying to do her job, but not quite so epically lacking in self awareness. Sadly I once again overestimated the self awareness men demonstrate when they have a woman in their sights.

  30. English Rose*

    LW5 – ‘courtesy interviews’ can feel demoralising and I get where your reluctance comes from, but just to say that in the past I’ve had direct experience of what was an internal ‘courtesy’ interview leading on an alternative great opportunity in the organisation. I wouldn’t have been on the radar for this other job if I hadn’t had the initial courtesy interview. At very least, it can get you added visibility.

    1. bamcheeks*

      Yes– “courtesy” interviews aren’t about wasting your time and the interviewer’s. They’re a good opportunity for the organisation to understand your strengths and interests and see whether there might be a long-term path for you, and for you to find out more about the new role, team and department.

      I would try and shift your perspective on this a little. Of course the best outcome is that you get the job, but try and go into it with the mindset that there are positive outcomes even if you don’t get the new role and you’ll probably find it less hellish.

    2. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

      I think part of the OP’s reaction might’ve been to the feeling of being tricked. It might’ve felt fine to be invited like “we have better candidates already for the role, but let’s talk anyway about which skills you have and which you could develop to position yourself next time”.

  31. Lady Lessa*

    LW3,

    I’ve used similar phrases to what Allison suggests when I was job hunting as well. Most people don’t realize that “chemist” is an umbrella term rather than a precise one meaning one. There’s a vast difference between a biochemist working in a hospital and a coatings chemist who makes their floors easier to sterilize.

  32. Myrin*

    #4, you write “Whenever I see an opportunity that I think would be a good fit, I first apply through the company’s official portal, then I reach out to anyone in my network who may be connected with that company/team.”.

    And possibly I’m thinking of this as simpler as it is but is there any reason you can’t reach out to your network first and then apply through official channels? I don’t know if the window these job ads are up for is very short and I hear you on it taking some time to leverage your connections properly but generally, if you’re seeing the ads pretty early after they went up, I don’t see why you can’t contact your network immediately and then wait two weeks or so before officially applying. The worst that can happen is that your network doesn’t react fast enough but even then, you’re only at the point where you’d otherwise start anyway.

    1. hmmm*

      LW4 also described reaching out to people he hadn’t talked to in years, to ask them to contact people they didn’t know very well. I am not sure that will be a particularly useful strategy, or that it would cause HR to take a second look at an application they’d already denied. It might be a better use of time to get the application in ASAP, and make it as good as possible (no typos, strong cover letter, etc.). Then if LW4 gets an interview, he could use his network to help prepare for that.

    1. Chairman of the Bored*

      You don’t.

      You go find other friends who are not a manager where you work.

      There are ~8 billion people on earth. You do no need to to have a relationship (romantic or otherwise) with one specific person from your job.

    2. londonedit*

      Please, leave this woman alone and let her do her job in peace. All she did was smile at you, and you’ve constructed some sort of fantasy whereby it’s appropriate for you to ask her out. Please don’t. Women are allowed to smile, be friendly, exist without random men trying to hit on them in the workplace.

    4. Magpie*

      You have zero indication from her that she wants a friendship with you, but even if you did it still wouldn’t be appropriate to be friends with a manager at your workplace. Especially since you definitely hope this friendship will eventually lead to dating, which is also very creepy. I’m honestly very worried about you. There are dozens of comments on here telling you this is a terrible, creepy plan and zero comments encouraging you to go ahead and contact her and you still seem convinced you should bother her. You’re absolutely going to end up getting fired if you carry on with this plan.

      1. bamcheeks*

        They’re probably not all the same guy. It’s like a bat signal goes out: “someone on the internet has asserted that women are people not prizes! sad men, assemble!”

        1. SnackAttack*

          Yeah, either that or it got linked to some Red Pill forum. But it’s probably the same dude.

    5. Daria grace*

      There’s such a thing as being a normal, thoughtful, friendly human being and seeing if mutual friendship develops into mutual attraction. Putting women who don’t know you much/at all in the uncomfortable situation of dealing with you being weirdly intense by asking for a date straight away is not the only option.

    6. Old enough to be your mother*

      Oh Brian, you really need to let this fantasy relationship go. Other commenters have explained why it’s a very bad idea, and why it won’t work. Believe them. What you are planning will come across as CREEPY.
      It does sound like you are looking for someone special in your life. I’m going to suggest that you stop thinking about it as a search, stop trying to force things, and just live your life. Get out into the world, do things that you enjoy, with people you enjoy. Chances are that you will cross paths with women you will get to know gradually in a more natural way, feel a MUTUAL “spark” with someone and build a real relationship.

        1. Clearance Issues*

          i was going to suggest dating sites or finding an in person hobby group and then being friends. When you make friend groups like that, eventually you keep meeting more and more people connected to them, and will click with someone.

          work is not a mutual hobby group. being friendly and approachable for women is part of an unspoken job description.

          please recognize this as the crush it is, drop the fantasy, and leave her alone.

    7. Ellis Bell*

      For the same reasons that men are not available to drop everything and be a stranger’s friend, neither are women. For the same reason that male bosses are not down to be your friend, neither are women. Women also have extra reasons for caution on top of those, because when someone is super duper keen to be your friend based purely on what you like look like + smiling ability, there is a very weird and imminent survival instinct to run far, far away

      1. Colette*

        It might be helpful for the OP to ask himself if he thinks it would be appropriate to ask another (male) executive to go out for a drink with him – not as a date, but just as two guys hanging out. If that’s not OK, it’s not OK to ask the GM out.

    8. Ellis Bell*

      Attractive men still have to pay attention to what women want and interact with them like decision making humans, instead of targets to be conquered. I used to have women beg me to introduce them to my incredibly good looking cousin, because at a distance he looked civilised: “Don’t worry” I’d say “He doesn’t need an introduction!” Sure enough, he would hit on them soon after seeing them in my company and it would invariably creep them out to the point of total avoidance, because he had terrible social acumen. The only way he ever happened to get together with anyone is if they approached him first and he was distracted and not “trying”. I don’t think men understand how deeply unnerving it is to be targeted as the point of a secret mission, like there is no point in discussing things with you lightly person-to person, or like they have already made up their mind what you are to him, or what you are good for.

      1. bamcheeks*

        The “attractive men get to play by different rules” trope is so incredible to me because they are literally saying, “it shouldn’t matter whether or not a woman finds me attractive, she should date me anyway”. Like, do you hear yourselves?

        The “attractive guy” is usually just someone with a basic level of respect for women as people, who actually cares whether a woman is having a good time or is annoyed or bored by them, and has the social skills to recognise the difference. The only one of those three things that is not within your control is the last, and that’s something you can get better at if you thought it was worth doing! But you know, it’s easier to complain that women find some men more attractive than others, and that we have Notions that we’re people or something.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Seconding all of this! Especially the part where being a genuine, considerate person is within one’s control and ability to improve.

        2. Silver Robin*

          yeah, pretty privilege is a thing…and, like no duh women are going to be more open to dating the folks she finds actually attractive? That is part (part!!) of the whole point of dating???

          you can be sad that not very many women find you attractive, but you cannot claim women owe you dates or relationships. Side stepping the fact that not all women have the same taste, this feels like the most twisted version of “character is more important than looks so you should date me for my personality and ignore my physical appearance”. Except, they do not follow those rules for women they find unattractive (ask me how I know) and they have shitty personalities to boot! Because the entitlement always comes through. Ugh

    9. Robin*

      Brian, if you would rather hear this from another internet dude I recommend Will Hitchins. He used to be like you. Now he makes videos about how easy it is to treat women with respect. Because you do want to treat the woman you want to date with respect, right? Right? In this case showing respect is accepting that just because you find her attractive does not entitle you to her.

      1. Robin*

        Right, I am staring myself blank on my last line, being a non-native English speaker. I meant “just because you find her attractive does not mean that you are entitled to any kind of relationship with her.”

    10. HonorBox*

      @Brian, you don’t. She cannot be friends with you. At all. Her position really precludes any notion of a friendship with you.

      The power dynamic aside, what do you really know about this person? Like honestly, do you have any sense that you might have a single common interest? If this was someone with whom you worked and you were presenting your ideas the same way, I think the reaction in the comments section would be pretty similar. Because you don’t know her. And work is not the proper place to ask random people out on a date or even make friends.

    11. Falling Diphthong*

      One of my favorite AAM updates! AAM suggested that OP look for a volunteer opportunity at which to aim the recently retired employee who kept showing up to the office, and she realized her aunt was connected to such an opportunity and could really use someone available within M-F 9-5, and by Thanksgiving they were dating.

    12. Hyaline*

      I’m not entirely convinced that we’re not being trolled right now.

      However. If not.

      If you are truly so fixated on this ONE woman who smiled at you ONCE that you want to celebrate your birthday with her and now are devising ways to meet outside of work to become friends…this is not healthy. This is suggesting mental illness. Put a pin in dating for now and seek therapy before you spiral. Seriously.

    13. DramaQ*

      My spouse and I met in college during biology class

      My parents met at a club they were part of the same social circle at the time so my mom “knew” my dad already before he asked her out

      My maternal grandparents were introduced by my grandmother’s first cousin who was dating grandpa’s older brother

      The closet to a Hallmark movie was my paternal grandparents. My grandma started out as his pen pal as part of a program for soldiers abroad in Korea. They fell in love through the letters and got married.

      My in laws met because they lived in the same area and my FIL would ride his scooter past MIL’s house every day and toot hello. They also went to the same high school.

      Not a single one of us got together by skulking in a parking lot waiting for the other to get off work so we could ambush them and tell them even though I am a total stranger to you we met once during your first day and I fell in love with you from afar so want to get to know each other better?

      That would be a hard NO.

      Nobody is owed a date or even coffee just because they like a person. In a workplace especially and definitely a workplace that had policies against it. Alison laid out the terms for when a workplace relationship may be worth considering and LW1 isn’t one of them. This woman doesn’t know him from Adam what makes anyone think he is owed consideration for his unrequited feelings? That is a totally sexist approach to dating and dangerous for women because we know how those types tend to respond to rejection.

      The LW is going to end up fired long before he gets his date with his fantasy girl. Now he’s still single and jobless to boot.

    14. Not A Manager*

      “You don’t ask out women at work, who are there to work; you don’t ask out women at the mall, who are there to shop; you don’t ask out women at the bar, who are there to relax. In fact you just don’t ask out anyone.”

      Yes, if by “ask out” you mean literally approach strangers who are, in fact, there to live their lives and not be pestered by strangers. No, if by “ask out” you mean, continue a measured process of getting to know each other that happened to start in the office, the grocery store, or the bar.

      I met my first spouse because he was close friends with my sister. I met my second spouse through a shared hobby. I am currently happily going on dates with people that I meet organically in my daily life, none of whom have essentially cold-called me by “asking me out” while I’m choosing avocados.

    15. Slinky*

      Please listen to Alison and to everyone here. You don’t. Don’t try to be friends with her. Don’t try to get hold of her outside of work. Keep you communications professional and in the office. Literally no one here is saying anything other than this. Please listen.

    16. Worldwalker*

      THERE IS NO WAY IN WHICH TO DO THIS.

      Why do you want to make friends with her? Are you both avid fans of Nickelback? Do you both root for the Yankees? Do you both love the polyphonic motets of Lassus? Do you agree that Elagabalus, not Caligula, was actually the worst Roman emperor? Do you both know who Elagabalus even was? Is there anything that you have in common?

    18. Tech Industry Refugee*

      Who held the door open for the incels and meninists? This rhetoric is not welcome in this millennium.

    20. Eldritch Office Worker*

      You can ask this as many different ways as you want, you don’t. You have a hundred different people telling you that you don’t, including the expert you wrote in to ask. What isn’t clicking here?

    21. HB*

      This is… really not true. Dating/marriage norms vary significantly by culture as well as socio economic class across *all time periods*. A friend of mine was a historian and she went on a tear once about how it was never “normal” for girls to get married at 13/14. That may have happened among the royals, but the peasants (i.e. the vast majority of the population) thought that was SUPER effed up. There never has, and never will be a “most people did this”.

    22. Tech Industry Refugee*

      Exactly! I did happen to meet my first boyfriend at work, but we got to know each other and developed a friendship. The attraction was mutual and it was a natural transition into going on a date. It can definitely happen but there are many healthier places to meet someone.

    23. WantonSeedStitch*

      You don’t, my friend. You accept that THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. It SHOULD NOT happen. You find ways of meeting new people outside of the workplace. Join a club. Go to parties at friends’ places. Attend community events. Chat with people and see if things click for BOTH of you. If they show signs of mutual interest (beyond just being nice to you), ask them out. If they turn you down, accept it gracefully and move on.

    24. So Tired*

      YOU. DO. NOT. You leave her ALONE.

      All she did was smile at you the first (and only!!!) time you met. That is a normal, professional way to greet a new employee. That’s it! Aside from all the reasons you should not date someone at work and especially in your chain of command, the most important reason you shouldn’t ask her out is because she’s given you NO SIGNALS that she would be interested or receptive. In fact, she is actively giving you signals that she IS NOT INTERESTED IN YOU.

      –She goes right into work and doesn’t come speak to you at the loading docks.
      –She has not sought you out for ANY conversations since meeting you. Not a single one.

      This isn’t a woman playing hard to get, this is a woman clearly signaling that she is not interested in you or anyone else in the company in this way. Leave. Her. Alone.

      And please NEVER EVER follow a woman to her car or wait at her car! That is a terrifying thing to have happen to you and WILL NOT result in that woman wanting to speak to you or be your friend or date you.

  34. Chairman of the Bored*

    I am actually a gold-medal world-class authority on dating in the workplace inasmuch as I met, dated, and am now happily married to a co-worker.

    Workplace dating can be done; but it takes a lot of maturity, self-awareness and the ability/willingness to accurately assess the signals people are putting out.

    I’d also suggest it helps to be:
    -Not desperate
    -Not hung up on one person
    -Good at dating generally

    LW1’s letter does not indicate that they have these qualities. For example, thinking that the next move is to approach a woman in a parking lot to ask her out? No way, that is not how any of this works.

    LW, take it from me, an actual expert in the thing you want to do. Drop this idea entirely.

        1. ecnaseener*

          I don’t think so. Anne’s saying that hopefully one of the reasons it worked out for Chairman was that they and their spouse weren’t each other’s manager.

    2. Clearance Issues*

      I’ve seen it work for other people too; they date someone on the same work level as them, not in the same chain of command and being on different teams. If there is a company policy, or you are in the same chain of command, look elsewhere.

      I have attempted to date 2 coworkers at different jobs, both times we broke up for various reasons, and it became supremely awkward at the office after that, WITHOUT the added “oh no we are in the same chain of command” conflict of interest.

    3. Slow Gin Lizz*

      My aunt and uncle have been married ~40 years and they worked in the same company at the time too. However, they were not in the same chain of command, did not work on the same team or projects (so they never actually worked together), and they actually met on a company team building weekend trip to go whitewater rafting (ah, the 80s….). So, as you can see, they actually did talk to each other outside of work, they realized they both liked skiing and traveling and wanted kids, my uncle was very nice to my aunt’s cat (“love me, love my cat” she said) and most importantly, company policy didn’t forbid them from going out with each other.

      OP, if you ask her out and corporate policy does forbid you from going out with each other (or, as you stated in your question, from even asking her out) you will be in a whole mess of trouble if you ask her out. If you care about this job and want to keep it, you should heed all these internet strangers’ advice and refrain from asking her out, and refrain from trying to get to know her so you can ask her out. Go find someone outside of work you can ask out and stop embarrassing yourself here – and do not embarrass yourself at work (or worse) by asking her out.

      1. Non non non all the way home*

        But please do not ask out women who are at work, such as retail workers, coffee shop workers, and so forth. They are required to be nice and smile at all customers and being asked out while working is frightening.

    4. Somehow I Manage*

      It also helps to be peers and not try to date way over your head. I’m not talking physical attraction… I’m talking about trying to date your boss’s boss.

    6. Hannah Lee*

      “LW, take it from me, an actual expert in the thing you want to do. Drop this idea entirely.”
      ^ this

      My suggestion to LW would be to focus on work at work.

      And then to seek out ways to improve opportunities for mutually enjoyable social interactions with other people outside of work: hobby groups, volunteering, meetups, etc.

      And at the same time, maybe drop a letter to Doctor NerdLove or other online relationship advice guru about how to build a social network, how to *generally* get to know other people in ways that are BOTH non-threatening and mutually enjoyable. And also you can ask him what to do when in the course of getting to know more people, making acquaintances/friends, you happen to meet a woman you find attractive who you have something in common with and who you’d like to get to know better.

      DNL in particular has a great perspective (and his own experience) with the way OP is trying to approach this one particular woman, and will likely have great advice for getting to know women in general, and ways to suss out mutual interest in a more respectful way (that will actually increase OP’s chances to build relationships with all kinds of new people)

    7. SpaceySteph*

      In-dating is extremely common in my field. There’s a long-running joke that you’re probably sitting next to your future spouse in the week-long new hire orientation (I wasn’t, but I was sitting next to the person who would introduce me to my future husband).

      All the relationships I know of (and there are MANY) started with organically getting to know people as coworkers and then moving on to friends (or in our case friends of friends) and finally more than friends.
      And it is expressly forbidden to date anywhere in your chain of command. It is also an extremely large organization where there are multiple parallel workflows and chains of command at the early-to-mid career level, so its possible to be in the same field but not really have any impact on each others’ work. My husband and I have been in the same meeting twice in almost 15 years we’ve been together.

  35. peach cobbler*

    Even if someone is going to willfully ignore all of the good arguments about her autonomy or the fact that if you’ve never had a real conversation with her to know if she’s even someone you’d like besides a face. Even if you completely ignore ALL THAT:

    You’re not supposed to be besties let alone date, your employee!! You’d be putting her in a situation where she HAS to say no.

  36. Falling Diphthong*

    1. No.
    2. You need to shift more of your pain onto your manager, so the manager will be motivated to say “no.”
    3. Oddly, the one with saying “no” in the title is the one where “Interesting! Here’s a topic change!” is the way of camaraderie, and these people possibly in future tossing out a more useful suggestion.
    4. You can only get around the “no” if your connections are strong, your skills stellar, and the rejection was along the lines “HR doesn’t understand that ABC certified and BCA qualified are the same thing.” That typed, I have seen this happen.
    5. Talk to the person who gave you the information.

  37. Benihana scene stealer*

    So would this be like one of the warehouse guys in the Office asking out Jan? Think of how badly that would go, then imagine that happening to you

    1. Constance Lloyd*

      I’ve honestly been reading summaries of subplot romances from The Office because this sounds so much like it could be someone writing in a letter inspired by that show, but enough of the details are off I don’t think that’s the case.

      OP1: Do not ask her out. It’s a bad idea for all of the reasons Alison listed and more. It will not end well personally or professionally.

  38. Alicent*

    #3 I had the same thing happen when I was in veterinary school. A LOT of people found out the Army would pay for a large chunk of vet school (six figures of tuition and benefits) if I just gave them a few years of my life to do whatever they wanted with me after graduation. I couldn’t even count one of their own internships towards the time served. For so many reasons that was NOT going to happen so I got really good at just smiling and nodding and saying “I looked into it, but it’s really not for me.” Almost everyone dropped it right there.

  39. Falling Diphthong*

    I want to tease out #3–the one with “saying no” in the headline, yet you probably want to say “Huh!” or “Interesting!”

    Connections help with job searching–and especially when you’ve been searching for a while, you don’t want to discourage people from offering you their possible connections. These people are likely to fall more in the casual acquaintance category, and so diverting the conversation to “I disagree with you on moral grounds” is going to make them less inclined to interact with you again across the board, even if next time their gambit was going to be a better option.

    If the saying “no” can be put into morally neutral territory–“I can’t work nights because of childcare” “I’m actually hoping for something that’s behind-the-scenes and not customer facing”–that lands differently. With the caveat that you shouldn’t present something as a problem preventing you from saying “yes” and be dismayed when the person takes you seriously and sets out to solve that problem for you.

    1. Daria grace*

      Perhaps another option if you can ethically do it is to say something vaguely positive about the field while deflecting eg. “Political advocacy is really important but I don’t think I’d enjoy dealing with those topics all the time”

    2. Bike Walk Barb*

      This is reminding me of the old-by-now research that found most people find jobs through weak ties, not strong ties. Your close friends are most likely to have the same kinds of connections you do with a lot of overlap so you don’t get many new ideas or connections.

      If that still holds (which I don’t know–that could have been pre-Internet-era), you actually want to encourage these people to suggest things. They just need more specific pointers to the kinds of suggestions or leads you’ll actually want to act on. “Thanks for thinking of marketing–that’s right up my alley! I just don’t find the political work appealing, so if you know of any other marketing-related jobs do let me know.” (You can safely let go of “yes I’d love to do marketing, but only for the other side” because these aren’t the people who will lead you to those jobs.)

  40. El l*

    OP4:
    If you get an automated rejection, move on. Don’t keep hoping, and don’t do further outreach. You have my sympathy, but – don’t waste your time.

  41. Anna*

    A few months back I saw this video by a youtuber named Summer Mckeen about a man who had been stalking her for over a year. He became infatuated with her after briefly meeting her in an elevator and would go to her house, leave things at her door, send her thousands of messages, go to her parents’ house, do anything to try to see her in person. He had delusions that all of her videos were secret messages to him. But in reality, they were strangers, she didn’t want his attention, and his behavior was inappropriate and scary. Eventually she got a restraining order and moved to another state.

    OP #1 is giving off those vibes, especially with his replies in the comments not getting the message. Being so obsessed with a near-stranger, not having common sense about what is and isn’t appropriate, and being unwilling to let it go in spite of everyone telling him that he should, are all really bad signs. I hope he’s just innocently clueless. I hope it won’t turn into something like this.

    1. Poison I.V. drip*

      I think you’re right. He’s clearly not getting it. And keeps asking “how do I get a hold of her” as if not having her contact info is the main problem here.

    2. Non non non all the way home*

      I have the same feeling, as someone who was stalked for almost 10 years by a man I had been friendly to as part of my job. Brian is coming across the same way as the man who terrified me.

  42. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

    LW1, Brian, I am interested in this part of your letter: “I work in the warehouse downstairs. She works in the offices upstairs when office protocol and company policy won’t let me ask her these questions.” What does office protocol and company policy specifically say? What are the consequences of asking questions like this, in this organisation? What do you think would actually happen if you went up to her office and spoke to her secretary and asked to see the General Manager and then asked the GM out for a coffee? What do you think would happen next?
    If the company has a written policy about not dating amongst staff, they mean it. Trying to find a way to get around these rules so they maybe technically don’t apply to you, by approaching her in the car park- this is not okay. This is ‘rules-lawyering’, with a real ‘incel’ vibe. Your letter and the way you are thinking comes across as if you are a teenager, surely the General Manager is at least in her thirties – everything seems ‘off’ about this situation.
    Do not approach this woman, do not fantasise about a relationship with her, do not feel entitled to her attention because YOU want it. Start looking for a job in a different workplace so that you are not focusing on her.

    1. chocolate lover*

      I noticed the policy comment too – he already knows it’s against company policy and doesn’t think twice about it? Way to get himself fired.

  43. Seashell*

    Regarding #3, if the vague answers don’t do it, there are plenty of legitimate and non-offensive reasons people might not want to be a police officer or corrections officer – it’s high stress work, it involves being on your feet a lot of the time, it involves working with a variety of people all or most of the time, it could aggravate pre-existing physical problems. If any of those are things you want to avoid in a job, use that as an excuse even if it’s not your main motivating factor in not applying.

      1. Seashell*

        I don’t like loud noises, so that would rule out any job involving a gun for me. That might work for LW too.

  44. Hyaline*

    LW4, if you’re getting a lot of auto rejections from positions you feel you’re well suited for, maybe check your application materials. It sounds like maybe you’re not making it past software filters.

    1. learnedthehardway*

      Also, recruiters screening resumes can tell in under a minute whether someone is qualified (on paper) for the role they are working on. Make sure that a) your resume is really presenting your experience, credentials, education, and accomplishments effectively and b) that you have all the required skills/experience for the role.

    2. BurnOutCandidate*

      I had a situation like this in the spring. It was a retirement community about five miles from home. And it went… weird.

      I received one of Indeed’s list emails one day, thought this particular position was intriguing and in line with where I wanted to go professionally, and put some polish on my resume and cover letter.

      The application portal could only take one PDF. In retrospect, I would have used a utility to stitch the two PDFs together into one (and have done so subsequently), but I went through the process, uploading my resume and completing the 50 question personality survey that was part of the process. I printed off my resume, though, and mailed it to them, with a note about how their portal didn’t allow me to include it but I wanted them to have it to complete my application.

      I applied on a Sunday. Mailed on Monday morning. Monday afternoon I received an automated rejection. Which was fair, if irritating; there is nothing on my resume that would suggest I’d have any interest in the position, but the cover letter went into that and explained why I would and what I had done, non-career wise, that would show ability and why I would be a great fit. I figured they would receive the cover letter, turn up their nose, and chuck it in the trash.

      They called me two weeks later, wanting to understand why I had sent them the cover letter. I went over everything I’ve just described here, and the woman on the other end of the phone listened. She was apologetic, then said, “Unfortunately, we don’t hire for the management level roles here. That’s handled out of the main office.”

      The following week, I received a job-specific email from Indeed, about this very job! “We think you’d be a great fit.” Yes, Indeed, I agree with you! I would have been a great fit! But, they didn’t see it that way. And, honestly, the personality quiz soured me on them a bit.

  45. Antilles*

    This is a workplace blog and approaching your GM for a date is a horrifically bad workplace idea. OP’s letter explicitly says that office protocol and company policies prevent him from asking these questions; that doesn’t magically change because you’re asking her in the parking lot rather than within the office.

  46. Jay*

    To OP#2: How is your manager in general? I ask because I have, more than once, dealt with a coworker not doing their job, only to find that they had no idea it WAS their job in the first place, and that the manager was too shy/embarrassed/apathetic to fill them in after they were done with training.
    Hell, I’ve been that employee a couple of times.
    If you haven’t done this, you could try just explaining to your coworker that this is an explicit part of their job and that they have to do it as part of their normal duties. They are not doing this as a favor or something ‘extra’ they do between tasks. Stress that they are not doing “for you”, they are doing it for work.
    Hope this helps.

  47. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

    OP1: I advise you to do some research. Not into her, but into things like #MeToo and r/whenwomenrefuse (seriously big trigger warnings for that one).

    We know it’s not all men but it’s a LOT of us who have suffered at the hands of men. We’re forced to be cautious by a society that still regards us as not equal human beings to men.

    This will give you empathy. We’re just people, same as you and really appreciate being able to do things like our jobs without being regarded as something someone can just feed in ‘nice’ tokens to and get a relationship out of.

    Add in power dynamics and comfort. If asking someone out and getting a ‘no’ will create a bad environment or reaction you do not do it. If being in a relationship with someone will result in a misuse of power (there’s a lot of reasons therapists don’t date their clients) hen it’s a definite no.

    You can have an aspirational crush as well. That’s one that inspires you to become better! The one where you admire your smart, capable, funny boss and decide you want to be like them one day. This can lead to great things career wise if you put it into some solid work and improvement.

    There’s a big difference between ‘I want her’ and ‘I want to be like her’. In both cases though, do it from afar.

  48. HonorBox*

    OP1 (@Brian) – Please sit back and try to think about this as though a friend is coming to you asking for advice about the same situation.

    They work in a warehouse, have interacted with the GM of the business inasmuch as there has been a smile in the parking lot. They want to initiate more conversation and potentially ask the GM out.

    They may want to ask the GM to go out to dinner on their birthday.

    They’re going back and forth between romantic outing conversations and “just want to be friends” language.

    They’re talking about waiting for the GM in a parking lot to initiate a conversation about this.

    They work somewhere with rules that expressly forbid this.

    If you’re a good friend, you’re going to tell your own friend that they’d better take this out of their brain and get past it. There’s a near-zero chance that the GM reacts well to this, and a much, much greater chance that your friend puts himself in a really bad spot at work, and potentially even loses their job.

    We are all trying to be good friends to you, Brian. Let this go. She is not going to be your friend or go out with you. She can’t. Your workplace forbids this, and even if that wasn’t true, her ethics will forbid it. This cannot and will not happen. Do not try to be her friend. Let this go for your own sake.

  49. ecnaseener*

    For LW5, re asking not to have a courtesy interview — you can try while you’re talking to the manager, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they forget. I’d say something like “if it turns out I’m not competitive for the role, I’d prefer you just tell me, I don’t need a courtesy interview or anything.”

    If you have a rapport with this manager and/or are confident in your ability to come across well, you can be more explicit about actively not wanting one, lightheartedly tell your story about all the interview prep you did only to find out you weren’t being considered, etc. But don’t tell this story if it’s more of a “I’m pretty sure it was a courtesy interview based on who they hired” / “someone told me afterwards” / etc., only if it was an unambiguous “thanks for coming in, we’re actually rejecting you but let’s do a mock interview for your own edification” scenario.

    Basically, you don’t want to come off like you think the only explanation for not getting a job you interviewed for is that it wasn’t a real interview.

  50. Loose Socks*

    I work in HR in a male-dominated field in the government with very strict policies about relationships, and I have been married for well over a decade. It is amazing how many men ignore all of this and try to connect with me outside of work. A few guys have sent me so many friend requests, despite me telling them multiple times I do not friend coworkers, that I’ve started calling them out in front of their supervisors. So many men just invent fairytales in their head and are completely certain they are the exception to every rule.

      1. JustaTech*

        I invented a “policy” of not friending coworkers a month into a new job because a guy in another department had taken our TV show chit-chat as showing romantic interest on my part (even though I mentioned several times that I had literally just gotten married).

        Overall it’s served me well, but I hate that I had to invent it on the spur of the moment with a guy standing just a little too close to me.

          1. JustaTech*

            The thing was that he was one of those guys who’s on the borderline of “creep” and “needs more social skills”. I knew a lot of them in college and most were not creeps. But by the time I’ve been out of college for 5+ years, I’m done educating peers on when they’re being creepy.

            (And he did let it go gracefully and then thankfully moved on to a job in a different industry and after one more friend request I never heard from him again.)

  51. Gustavo*

    I am HORRIFIED by LW1. Who actually believes it is appropriate to ask out your manager first of all and even more importantly in my opinion is the fact that she has not given one single signal of interest to this man and he somehow feels he should ask her out??? You are not entitled to make women feel uncomfortable in their workplace by violating her like this. She has a job to do and you would make it insanely uncomfortable for her.

    1. londonedit*

      Who believes it? Men who can’t understand that women are human beings in their own right, and instead see them as objects designed purely for male entertainment. Men who therefore think they’re entitled to have women ‘smile for them’ or date them or whatever – who cares whether they have anything in common, right? Nearest available female will do.

      1. London Calling*

        This is reminding me of the latest Graham Norton Show, when Saoirse Ronan totally owned the men laughing at the idea that a phone could be used as a weapon if someone’s threatened; thereby demonstrating that they have NO IDEA about women and the calculations they make every day to stay safe.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          You could see these worldly, sophisticated men, many of whom were married to women and had clearly interacted with hundreds of women in their lifetime, all simultaneously stymied by that notion. It had never, ever crossed their minds, not once.

      2. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Men who have “Main Character Syndrome,” in which they believe they are the only important person in the world and everyone else is simply a supporting character in their life’s movie or soap opera.

    2. Worldwalker*

      Not even his manager — the GM of the location. At least two or three levels of management up the chain. Someone he has, in fact, never met except as part of a group introduction.

      1. Hannah Lee*

        This detail makes me really really hope this LW is super young and this is their first job. I’m hoping it’s just inexperience and naivete.

        Because aside from all the basic ‘respect for women as autonomous human beings and not viewing them NPC’s my game of life’ barriers LW is apparently trying to blast through, he’s also viewing this and thinking of acting in ways that are WAY out of line with most workplace norms (and the specific stated policies of this particular workplace). And that could easily threaten his standing at his job and could even get him fired depending on his specific actions.

        I’m trying to think of ANY workplace I’ve ever been at where someone multiple levels down the reporting chain displayed this level of expectation of and entitlement to the personal time and attention of the GM of their workplace. And across decades, from banking to retail to academia to tech to manufacturing to human services … the ONLY examples I can think of are interns (all male) who made REALLY awkward and obvious attempts to “schmooze” execs/senior managers … and completely failed make a positive impression or build any rapport (instead making a bad impression)

        And even with a more collegial senior manager who actively tries to get to know everyone in their reporting chain and isn’t hung up on hierarchy, someone thinking and acting like OP would get a side-eye and a wide berth. The only exception to that would be if the exec were Michael Scott levels of egregiously clueless, or very willing to abuse their position of authority. (and who would want to date that?)

    3. goddessoftransitory*

      Way, way too many men (and women) believe exactly this, but straight cisgender men are bolstered in the delusion by the vast majority of society and media.

  52. Salty Caramel*

    LW3: Good for you for sticking to your principles. I’ve been where you are a few times. Allison’s responses and other ones like them are the way to go. It’s great that people want to help, but sometimes that help is just not helpful.

    Situations where I’ve backed away include a private prison corporation (referral from a recruiter), a publisher of religious texts for a religion I don’t practice (the recruiter told me up front he’d understand this was not my thing), and a company that made vaping accessories (which wasn’t clear in the ad).

    1. I Have RBF*

      When I was unemployed after the Covid lockdowns, I had people ask why I didn’t apply to FB. Hard pass on the ethics angle, plus I knew that they loved those open plan hellscapes, and would want me to commute an hour plus each way just to sit in a noise pit.

      I am senior enough in my field that I can be picky about ethics and working environment.

  53. I'll have the blue plate special, please.*

    OP1: Do not pursue this woman romantically. This GM is there to do a job and your thinking can be taken the wrong way. It sounds like you’re projecting a dream-like scenario and it comes across as awkward and uncomfortable. To the point of coming across as stalking behavior.

    You might put your employment risk as well.

    Also, remember her pleasantness toward you is professionalism only. Look to build personal relationships outside of your workplace instead.

    1. Worldwalker*

      Yeah, ask anyone who has ever worked retail. It’s a valuable and necessary skill to be friendly and pleasant to someone when you’re thinking “Die in a fire. One big fire, or a lot of little fires, I don’t care. Just die.”

      1. I'll have the blue plate special, please.*

        Agreed. OP also can face legal consequences too. And word will get around about his behavior.

  54. My 2 Cents*

    LW#1, I would love for Captain Awkward to gently chime in here…regarding the building of fantasies before getting to know a person, which generally does not work well. I am also wondering if this letter is real – something about the phrasing, maybe it’s a troll trying to rile up the readers? Anyway, LW, it can be hard to meet people, and many of us have seen a person across a room or whatever and swooned a bit and let our imaginations go wild. You have seen a successful woman who is polite (and probably good-looking). You have a crush. It’s driving you crazy. Been there! (Captain Awkward mentions some pretty over-the-top things she did when she had a crush.) It will pass. Get to know people as friends, not as potential dates, and work on yourself. I know plenty of single women of all ages who would like to find someone who is kind and thoughtful, a good worker (doesn’t have to be some high-powered position, just not a lazy mooch), a good listener, etc. Work to become that person.

    2. Literally a Cat*

      In this context, OP also shouldn’t try to get to know the GM as a friend. Still incredibly entitled and creepy.

  55. Elizabeth West*

    OP #1 (Brian) is going to get fired if he keeps going. I’m calling it now.

    OP#3 — I feel your pain. Aside from moral objections to potential jobs, a lot of suggestions are just people trying to be helpful but they have NO IDEA what your resume looks like, what skills you have, what jobs would be a good or not-so-good fit, etc. etc.

    Pro-tip: if someone you know is job searching and you want to be helpful, ASK what you can do, and then follow that person’s lead. They may not need anything, or they may just want to vent now and then, or hang out without thinking about it.

    1. Worldwalker*

      I remember back when I was looking for a job — so long ago it involved classified ads! — and my father, trying to be helpful, would find some of the most laughably inappropriate jobs. “No, just because I have a certificate in X does not mean I’m qualified for a job that requires 5 years experience with distantly-related Y!”

      Like Elizabeth West said, ask people what they want and need, don’t substitute your random guess instead. Or 40 years later, someone will be making snarky comments about you on AAM 4.0!

      1. Paint N Drip*

        I don’t know what’s worse, seeing the wildly entry-level jobs they recommend or seeing the huge overshoot you have zero chance for. Thanks for thinking I’m CEO material mom! Maybe something in between janitor and CEO would be a better fit

        1. JustaTech*

          The jobs my well meaning but not knowledgeable mother in law has suggested… they really ran the gamut from “that’s for high school students” to “that requires a PhD and 20 years experience, it’s literally running a Federal Agency.”

          And then there was the time she said “well why don’t you just get a nursing degree? That can’t be hard.” Way to simultaneously denigrate the field of nursing (not easy!) and completely fail to notice that I am not a people person and have zero interest in or skill at working with the public.

    2. Kowalski! Options!*

      Brian is also on the verge of being added to the rotating cast of characters of the Ask a Manager universe.

      1. Rex Libris*

        I shall always think that the way you also type in Georgia font means there’s something special between us…

  56. Gaia Madre*

    I don’t think this is fake. This reflects many, many conversations like this that I have had over the years with guys who will not take no for an answer. Creepy, gross, infuriating.

    1. Tech Industry Refugee*

      Agree. I literally had to change my phone number once because of a creepy guy. Very triggered by this letter.

    2. Lils*

      +1000

      Even if this letter is fake, this is reality. Currently dealing with this *exact* situation right now, in the year of our lord 2024. The absolute waste of the HOURS of discussion and strategizing with woman/NB colleagues: how best to avoid this man, how to discourage him, how and when to report the behavior, how to defend oneself should the worst happen, having someone walk you to your car, avoiding certain events he is at, whether to save his creepy text messages for evidence or block his number, how he is destroying your comfort in the workplace, looking over your shoulder, and on and on forever. I have better things to do with my time, honestly. I never want to think about this person again, but I have to.

      The best part? When he is told to f*ck off, his response boils down to “well I guess I’ll just try to ignore it when you’re deliberately trying to turn me on.” To say women are EXHAUSTED of this kind of crappy behavior is a gigantic understatement. I don’t care if you’re young, you should know better, full stop.

      1. Jellyfish Catcher*

        This sounds really, truly bad enough to escalate the issue to management and/or the police.

    3. Bear in the Sky*

      If it is a fake, it’s based on reality.

      Some guy somewhere is thinking exactly like this LW, whether or not the LW is fiction.

  57. Gaia Madre*

    #1 is as real as it gets. How many times have I had this conversation with some guy at work or elsewhere when I’m trying to mind my own business? Over and over and over. Totally real, and I am despondent that things will never change.

  58. Somehow I Manage*

    OP2 – Talk to your manager, highlighting everything you did here. If manager is aware of some of the issues, these specific items may help them understand the extent of the problems. Especially if you can put into context how these delays are directly impacting your workflow – like, “when I didn’t get the edits on time, I had to drop ______ to finalize everything, which caused a delay of _____ time on the other project.” I think no matter how this conversation with your manager goes, you should start to cc them on everything. Either that gives them the evidence they need to take action or it gives them evidence they need that this situation needs their action.

  59. Michelle*

    I’m surprised and confused by the answer to #5. The one person Alison didn’t suggest talking to, LW’s boss, is the one person who literally said to let them know if there was a position LW was interested in?

    1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      I feel like you missed some stuff in the letter. There is no job opening, so there is nothing to talk to their boss about. The LW was told in confidence that someone is moving on. You don’t want to out the person who gave you secret intel!

  60. Not on board*

    Actually relieved to see all the incel-type comments have been removed. We all got side-tracked by how awful they were, including myself, and were attempting to respond to people who can’t be reasoned with – either because they’re stuck in that mindset or they’re just trolling us.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I am too, though it does remind me there is no moderation IRL and I will continue to end up in these conversations with entitled creeps.

      2. Rex Libris*

        I’m just amazed at how completely they miss the incredibly direct, lights flashing, bells ringing, wildly obvious connection between their views on women and relationships, and their failure with women and relationships.

    2. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

      If Alison ever sets up a wish list or similar I’m buying something for her.

      Seriously, I don’t know how she does this. This is a public accessible internet commenting space with just her moderating it. Our internal forums at work have a TEAM of moderators and that’s employees posting under their real names so HR comes down hard and fast on trolls.

    3. Eilla*

      Some of the responses were pretty good though, too bad those couldn’t be kept. Was confused when I came back mid-read and realized a bunch of things were missing, it took me a minute.

      1. bamcheeks*

        “you have contempt for women” “wrong, women are like fish” will go down in my personal internet WTF history, for sure.

        3. Irish Teacher.*

          And it really highlighted what that person thought of women, that they were prey for him to “catch” rather than individuals with autonomy. A better comparison would be when applying for a job, you should listen to people with experience of hiring so if you want to know how to impress a woman, you should listen to women. “You shouldn’t listen to women as regards how to impress them/what they look for in a man because you wouldn’t listen to a fish about how to catch it” is really saying the quiet part out loud. “You shouldn’t listen to women because what you really want to know is how to harm them and they aren’t going to tell you that.”

    4. Slow Gin Lizz*

      I must have missed those, were they removed recently or earlier this morning? I see the comments from the OP himself are still here, but I think keeping those is good because the responses to him are good too.

      2. SnackAttack*

        Yeah, I think it was just one dude masquerading under different usernames, but the incel vibes were strong

      3. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

        Fairly recently but trust me you do NOT want to read them and I do not want to quote them. Typical incel ranting.

  61. becca*

    OP 3’s question made me think of the song “Career Opportunities” by the Clash, which I think is a good song for anyone to hum quietly to themselves if they’re job searching and getting poor advice.

  62. Crencestre*

    OP1: Okay, it’s a good thing that you wrote to AAM to ask about the feasibility of your plan to approach a manager in the garage and ask her to date you BEFORE you actually did that, got yourself on her radar and quite possibly found yourself under HR’s scrutiny as well. Because that’s what would happen to you if you’d actually followed through with that!

    Aside from it being out of the question to ask out someone even peripherally in your chain of command, waiting until you’re both in the parking garage would make you look even worse. Here’s why. Women learn, very early, to be on our guard about encounters with men we don’t know well enough to trust – and that goes double if those encounters take place in an area where we’re out of public view. In areas like that, predatory men can and do behave as they never would when they’re being observed – that’s why rapes almost never happen on a busy street during the day! Approaching ANY woman whom you don’t know well in the parking garage to ask for a date would come across as creepy at best, threatening at worst.

    Again, it’s good that you asked Alison for advice about this – please take it to heart and follow it!

    1. Rex Libris*

      Yep. The chances that the OP’s plan would actually get any sort of positive reaction from the GM, much less a date, pale in comparison to the chance they’d find HR and a security guard escorting them off the premises.

  63. Somewhere in Texas*

    LW #5- Could you also ask the current person in that role any recommendations on trainings or certifications that would be helpful for that role? Making sure you are prepared for what it would entail.

  64. Bookworm*

    Letter #3 – Years ago I was laid off and friends thinking to be helpful were sending me referral links to me so I could apply for jobs at their offices. They thought because I had certain skills, I would be a good fit. None of them were a good fit. It didn’t help that a number of the positions required supervisory/management experience, which I didn’t have at all. Friends got really put out that I wasn’t applying. I had to have a very direct, honest chat with them that I really appreciated their assistance, but none of the jobs were even a semi-decent fit.

  65. Mad Scientist*

    LW2: I’m perplexed that your manager is pleased with your coworker’s performance in other areas. It seems like more of a work ethic issue than a skills issue, and I find it hard to imagine a scenario where someone has such poor work ethic in one area (consistently turning in sloppy / late work) but good work ethic in other areas. If it were a skills issue, it would make sense if he was struggling with completing some tasks on time more than others, and more training might help. But given your specific complaints and the fact that others have had the same complaints makes it seem really unlikely that this guy is good at *any* aspect of his job. If there truly is one task he’s good at despite being terrible at everything else, then maybe he needs to be in a role that only focuses on that one task.

  66. That Library Lady*

    “I shall never forget the smile on her face when I met her when she was introduced to each worker in the warehouse.”

    Men, if you’re reading this, NEVER assume a woman has any interest in you because she smiled at you. We’re just being polite, are trying to prevent you from telling us how much prettier we’d be if we smiled, or are combating our resting bitch face. The number of times male patrons seem to think I’m expressing interest when I’m just providing good customer service…I’ll get off my soapbox now.

  67. Bike Walk Barb*

    What odds do you lay on a woman writing in to us after the holidays to tell us about this guy from the warehouse for the company she manages who hovered by her all night at the company party, kept smiling nervously, tried to bring her a drink she didn’t want, and followed her to her car?

    Please all that’s holy let it have a happy ending for her. This has “I’m coming back for you, but this time with something to make you sorry” all over it. Ick.

    Happy Monday everyone.

    1. Coffee Protein Drink*

      The parking lot makes the whole scenario extra creepy. It’s a common place for men attacking women.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      I want the happy ending to be this: if Brian tried anything, he was escorted out by very grim security. Everyone clapped, the end.

  68. Margaret Cavendish*

    OP2, John is definitely a problem, but Jane is a bigger problem.

    She has confirmed that everything I have asked from John is reasonable and within his responsibilities. She acknowledges that other team members have given her similar feedback, though she seems pleased with his performance in other areas of his work. She has spoken to John more than once about these issues and is aware that performance has not improved.

    Jane knows about all the problems, and hasn’t addressed them. For whatever reason – maybe she doesn’t like conflict, maybe he’s the CEO’s nephew, maybe he actually is a rock star in the other parts of his job (although I doubt it.) But the thing is, the reason doesn’t matter. What matters is that she is deliberately choosing to let him continue working this way. And as long as she’s not willing to manage him, there’s nothing you can do to manage him either.

    At this point, you’re in “your boss sucks and isn’t going to change” territory. So you should be thinking in terms of whether you want the job under these conditions. Maybe you do! Or maybe you want to start job searching – either is a valid choice. But you need to assume that the Jane & John situation will stay the same for as long as you’re working there.

  69. Velawciraptor*

    Brian/OP1,

    I’m concerned for you, given the responses you’ve seen here. You continue to respond to people, looking for a way to do what Alison (and now several others) have told you in no certain terms not to do.

    That concerns me not only because ignoring that clear advice could cost you your job. It concerns me because your responses, as well as your original plan to lie in wait for this woman in the parking garage, remind me of several clients I’ve had in more than a decade as a public defender who wound up facing stalking charges.

    I’m not going to give you legal advice, as I don’t know what state you’re in and what the specific laws there are. But I can tell you that what I see you having in common with my clients is a refusal to accept clear boundaries, no matter who sets them out (your corporate policy, the workplace advice professional you came to for help, several additional commenters telling you in no uncertain terms that you cannot do what you contemplate here). That gives me (and I suspect several other readers) serious concerns that if you were to ignore the advice you’ve been getting here and ask this woman out, you would also ignore her clear boundaries, and that’s where the real trouble would begin.

    If you follow your contemplated path, you run the risk of not only losing your job and being unable to get a decent reference from this employer. If you engage in the same boundary violating thinking and behavior with the GM, you could wind up facing criminal charges.

    Please, find a way to put this woman out of your mind. If your employer has an EAP, seek them out to get some counseling to help you figure out why clear boundaries are difficult for you. But please, do not risk your job, your freedom, and your future. Listen to Alison and leave this woman alone.

    2. Manic Sunday*

      What a gem of a comment! I hope it helps Brian be better, and I also hope it demonstrates to everyone else reading that it’s very sane and reasonable to be afraid of people who act and think the way he is acting and thinking.

    3. Former Young Lady*

      I hope this gets through to “Brian,” and all the other would-be Brians out there who might be tuning in. Thank you for sharing these insights here!

    4. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

      This is an incredible comment, and it really helps hearing from someone from the background of public defence because ya’ll don’t get enough credit for the work you do.

  70. Party Pooper*

    OP1, you ask how you can connect with her to be friends. How often have you gone out of your way to pursue a platonic friendship with a man because you couldn’t forget how he looked when he smiled at you? If the answer is zero, then it’s probably zero with women, too. You need to be honest about the situation, stop looking for ways to circumvent good business practices and company rules, and accept the fact that this woman is off-limits. Please don’t do anything to make the situation awkward for her or for yourself.

    1. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

      This.

      LW1: do you smile at men when you’re introduced to them? If so, does that mean you’re interested in dating them?

      If not, and if you want to make friends at work, try talking to the people you actually work with. You can start with ordinary complaints about your commute, or say something about a recent ballgame. If you seem to have things in common–maybe you both hate the same baseball team, or he’s the only other person at work who likes tacos al pastor–ask him if he’d like to have coffee after work, or even what he’s doing on the weekend.

      If you’re trying to make friends, it shouldn’t matter whether you’re attracted to someone. If “but I’m not interested in dating that person” is a reason not to suggest that cup of coffee, you’re not trying to get to know people as friends. A girlfriend isn’t a prize you win after dropping enough tokens in the “just hanging out” box.

  71. Veryanon*

    That first letter sent chills up my spine. I hope the letter was fake or, if it was a real letter, the OP takes the advice to heart. A lot of people do meet partners at work (I met my now-ex husband at work) but it can be very fraught to navigate.

    1. Gaia Madre*

      I don’t know what’s worse: the idea that this is real, that guys really can be this selfish and clueless; or that this is a fake, because some guys just like scaring women and reminding us that nowhere is safe. Lovely.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        I mean, it is real. Even if the person who wrote it weren’t real, this exact behavior happens all the time. We already know it’s real.

  72. Filicophyta*

    LW1, In addition to the valuable advice from Alison and others, why would you ask her out (corner her) in the car park?! Haven’t you seen movies or TV shows or read books where the most dangerous scene happens here? Getting approached by a stranger here (and you are a stranger to her, despite your imagination) would not be a positive experience.

    There’s a reason many people get their keys ready in the elevator, so they can head straight to the car and get in quickly. these aren’t friendly spaces.

    for anyone, getting asked out by a co-worker should not be a surprise. it should be clearly anticipated by both parties due to ongoing friendship.

  73. ContentIsHot*

    I’ve always been told to ask for a referral before applying. There may be a different application process for refered candidates that automatically put them at the top of “the pile.” When I worked for a large company, every employee had a special personalized application link to share with people we wanted to refer. Those links gave applicants priority and linked them to the employee who referred them so the employee got a referral bonus if the person got hired. I’ve had people ask me for a referral after they applied, and I had to tell them to apply again with my link if they wanted a real chance of being considered.

  74. Angstrom*

    #1: The ability to make someone feel special — that in a crowded room, they are focused on YOU — is part of the toolkit of many successful politicians, executives, teachers, and other who deal with the public. Giving that kind of attention is a practiced technique to make people feel welcome and heard. There is nothing *personal* about it. They’re doing their job.

  75. Artemesia*

    While dating at work is always ill advised, we do spend a lot of time at work and so sometimes friendships grow over time and people become friends and then date. This is entirely different than spotting someone attractive in the workplace and then pursuing them. NEVER do that. Mutual attractions often have very negative consequences in the workplace as it is; purposefully pursuing someone especially above you in the supervisory chain is a disaster waiting to happen.

    go join a club or two; work on a political campaign; volunteer at the pet shelter; join a church with a robust social program for young adults; join meet up groups that interest you. AND then if you and a woman chat and hit it off for awhile, ask her out for coffee and see what happens. Most of the time things go nowhere; it is the nature of dating; some time things will develop from there.

  76. Three Flowers*

    L W 1: please understand that not only is this wildly inappropriate, you could lose your job for it.

    If a man cornered me in the parking lot to ask me out, I would be having an immediate off-hours conversation with security and a conversation with HR at 8am the following day. I would tell every woman I knew in the company. And I would use legal terms. I would get a lawyer if necessary.

    Even if you refrain from the stalker approach and opt to be a holiday party cliche, there’s a good chance that a woman high in the hierarchy would go to HR if you asked her out, simply to document the incident and ensure the power dynamic doesn’t get misconstrued later. She doesn’t know what your intentions are and can’t afford for you to come back later and claim she hit on you. (And since any guy who asks the boss’s boss out based on one professional smile is wildly out of touch with workplace behavior, she’s going to have to consider all the ways this could go even more wrong.)

    On top of that, like it or not: a general manager is far more valuable to the company than you, a guy in the warehouse.

    There is no version of this where you get a date, and lots where you are summarily unemployed or the office pariah.

  77. Anne Shirley Blythe*

    @Brian OP1, one of the first rules of Ask a Manager is to assume the letter writer is being truthful. So assuming your questions are from an authentic place, PLEASE, in the name of all things pure and holy, familiarize yourself with the Doctor Nerdlove (aka Harris O’Malley) website and podcasts ASAP, in addition to related archival posts on the Ask a Manager site.

  78. Sharon*

    LW#5, you need to be talking to your manager about possible paths to promotion and higher level work if you are interested in doing that. Ask about additional work you could take on, training opportunities, etc. Then you’ll be better prepared to advance regardless of what happens with this specific position.

  79. karstmama*

    on a diving forum. we scuba and our first date was diving. we dated for something like 8 years before we got married. he is my same height – we wear the same size drysuit underwear, which is a plus because we only need 3 sets. i have been the breadwinner for the past 5 years, he was for our first 2. parents – at a dance while they were in college. grandparents – grew up in the same community. brian, unhappy, this woman doesn’t owe you anything at all. no woman owes you anything at all. be interesting and kind and live your own life. stalking women is a very bad look.

  80. ReallyBadPerson*

    LW 1, being attracted to someone doesn’t give you any rights at all. You need to shut down your feelings toward this woman immediately. Find another job, if necessary, but dislodge her from your head today.

    Even if you are not a creep IRL, you play one really well on the internet.

  81. Cinnamon Stick*

    There’s a non-zero chance that the LW and the commenter Brian (who may or may not be the same person) are nothing but trolls. Yet, there are so many women in the comments who have stories about creeps like the LW.

    That says terrible things about a lot of men.

    1. GammaGirl1908*

      Ugh, this is so true and so upsetting. Even if LW1 and Brian are trolls, and whether or not they are the same person, the fact is that this scenario and even more sinister ones are playing out all over the place right now. Moreover, most women have at least one similar story, if not more.

  82. Bitte Meddler*

    LW1’s question and his imaginary relationship with a woman he doesn’t even know reminds me of what happened to a neighbor of mine:

    The City repaved our street, which included redoing the sidewalks. In some cases, this meant tearing up grass and damaging in-ground sprinkler systems. After the work was done, a City worker came around asking each home owner if they needed their sprinklers repaired and if they were OK with the work and the cleanup.

    That guy took a liking to my neighbor. After a 5-minute conversation through a cracked-open storm door, he asked her out. She said No, thanked him for following up on the street work, and shut the door.

    He left a note on her door a few days later, apologizing for being so forward and saying that he hoped he hadn’t alarmed her.

    A few days after *that*, on Mother’s Day, he parked a few houses down the street, walked across people’s yards so that he could approach the side of her porch out of view of her security camera, and left a MASSIVE bouquet of roses, a box of expensive chocolates, and a couple of plushies (I think one was a teddy bear).

    There was a note with the gifts, once again apologizing for possibly making her uneasy, but then went on to say that she had the most attractive and open smile he had ever seen, and that he knew she was a great mother, which is why he included the plushies for her daughter [HOW DID HE KNOW SHE HAD A DAUGHTER??]. He closed with how he hoped he could change her mind and that she would let him treat her to a grand night out.

    She was, naturally, freaked the fuck out. She emailed our neighborhood group asking what to do. Lots of us had talked to this guy and had his business card. We all called and emailed his supervisor and reported him.

    No idea what happened to him — I hope he was fired — but he at least, thankfully, has left my neighbor alone. She’s still not 100% comfortable in her own home.

    PSA for men: That over-the-top shit you see in rom-coms? It’s not real life. It’s scary as hell. No means NO. It doesn’t mean “Try harder and get creative.”

      1. Bitte Meddler*

        You don’t think that harassing constituents while on the City’s dime is something that should be reported to his supervisor???

      2. Bitte Meddler*

        It absolutely did help. He stopped his behavior, which he didn’t do the first time she said No.

      4. Observer*

        trying to get him fired is not going to help.

        Factually incorrect. Because this will take away the false credibility he might have with other women / people. And it will make it harder for him to approach women in the first place. The only reason she ever had *any* conversation with him was because he was coming around for the City. If he were just knocking on doors, she wouldn’t even have had the conversation through the door.

      5. Former Young Lady*

        I think it’s absolutely going to help! If you can’t resist the urge to stalk women, you shouldn’t be in a job that requires going door-to-door.

      7. iglwif*

        It will help, because if he’s not working for the city he doesn’t have the layer of plausible deniability that allowed him to get started down this path.

        And if I were his supervisor I would absolutely not want him on my team.

      8. I'm so tired*

        Of course it’s going to help. It DID help. He stopped. Men like that don’t stop unless there are actual consequences.

        Plus, reporting him to the management isn’t even “trying to get him fired”. It’s “making sure the people who are responsible for him being in a position to speak to her in the first place know how badly he abused that position”. What they then do with that information is up to them.

        And if men don’t want to get fired for being creepy a-holes, they can stop being creepy a-holes.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      GAAAAAHH

      This reminds me of the time my old coworker recommended a yard guy he knew, who came by my house and did some yard thing, I can’t remember what. When the work was done, the guy told me he was so attracted to me he wanted to show me everything he could do to me. He was married, by the way. I told my coworker and he was appalled (to his credit, he believed me).

      *puke emoji*

      1. Bitte Meddler*

        Holy wow!

        I don’t know why, but I am always amazed and taken aback when I realize how many of these kinds of men are just walking around in our society. Because that is some seriously effed up behavior.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I mean, we were joking around in a general way, and I guess he thought that meant I was interested. NOPE.

          Fortunately, he did not come back to my house. I wonder if my coworker (who is awesome, btw; we’re still friends on FB, but he can be somewhat intimidating) said something to him.

  83. Yup*

    The absolute gall of wanting to ask out a colleague who is a superior AND has shown 0 interest AND has undoubtedly put up with sexist obstacles in her career…

    This is what women keep sounding alarm bells about in the workplace. This is what makes us uncomfortable and jeopardizes our careers and/or safety when things don’t go as the man in question planned.

    Just stop.

    1. Former Young Lady*

      Because he can’t take no for an answer and only hears what he wants to hear.

      I have that right in the middle of my “creep” bingo card. It’s actually the free square, right next to “follows women to their cars” and “acknowledges that official policy expressly prohibits what he wants to do, but wants advice on getting around the policy.”

  86. Office Plant Queen*

    LW2, in addition to the advice above, you may want to consider strategies for communicating/working with people with ADHD. I’m definitely not saying your coworker has it, but the stuff you describe sounds like the sort of issues someone with ADHD might have if they were a poor fit for their role/not managing their condition well, so regardless of what the actual issue is, the same strategies might help. For example:

    – give them a different, earlier deadline. Don’t tell them it’s an artificial deadline. When setting it, assume they will turn it in on that day, not 3 days earlier, and assume their work will need extra time for review.
    – ask them to make a checklist for the steps they generally need to do on your projects – this can be for your reference too, when you’re trying to chase things down/ask whether certain steps are done
    – give your emails as specific of a subject line as you can. e.g. “Info Request: Product ABC Packaging Spec Sheet”
    – highlight and/or bold the main part of a request if it’s a longer email
    – put written communication in bullet points wherever it makes sense to do so

    But again, do follow the advice above. Your manager should definitely be involved with addressing these issues! My suggestions are really meant to be fairly low-effort things that create urgency/reduce the amount of steps or effort to do a task

  87. Boof*

    Ooof OP1 – I don’t know if you’ll read this and I imagine some of the comments have hurt if you’ve read through them, but I hope you listen. This is a bad idea on so many levels, even if you want to believe it can work. 1) just don’t try to date anyone in your chain of command. Even if they are above you, even if they are far separated and the connection seems tenuous, that is a major work no no! Dating any coworker is tricky and really only ok if neither of you has any authority over the other, and ideally also plenty of space so things aren’t weird if anything turns sour you can both keep your distance while sill keeping your jobs!
    2) It sounds like you have a crush. I know those can feel intense, and real, but they really are all in your head. If there was a real genuine moment of mutual connection there, she would have sought you out, and she did not. I think society can send a lot of conflicting messages about how and when to court someone, but you have two reasons not to push it here.
    I guess I do want to know why you want to date your GM enough to write in to an internet advice site about it, and my guess is maybe you even know this is a bad idea on some level? If only because you don’t even know how to approach it? If you’re just really lonely I’d recommend redirecting that energy into whatever sort of dating venue you like; online, singles events, etc. I know a lot of people meet other people through various mutual interest things and not necessarily dating events but at least with a dating event you can be assured most people are there for the same reason and it’s probably a safer start.

  88. Irish Teacher.*

    LW3, I think in some of those cases, it is also possible to acknowledge a moral concern without making a criticism of the job itself. Like for something like a police officer, “I wouldn’t really feel comfortable making decisions about arresting people” or for the advertising companies, “I’m not really good at persuading people. I doubt myself too much to be effective at strongly advocating those kind of positions.”

    Those might not be great examples, but I mean, so long as you keep it as “something I would personally prefer not to do for personal reasons” rather than “this is immoral and I judge those who work in the area,” it should be OK.

  91. The Not-An-Underpants Gnome*

    To LW 1:

    Brian.

    Sir.

    My dude.

    What part of “office protocol and company policy won’t let me ask her these questions.” is particularly confusing to you?

    The car park is still considered office territory. You are going to get fired if you do this. You also might get cited for harassment or possibly arrested for stalking depending on the laws where you’re at.

    LEAVE YOUR GM ALONE. AND WHILE WE’RE AT IT, YOU’RE NOT THE SPECIAL EXCEPTION AND THE RULES DO, IN FACT, APPLY TO YOU.

    Gawd, men like this are why I cite dating is too damn horrible as a reason for staying single.

  93. The Gift of Fear*

    I am naturally very friendly and smile at people when greeting them. The sheer number of men who are unable or unwilling to acknowledge that a smile is simply a social nicety and not a secret bid for conversation/coffee/romance/sex/marriage/etc. frequently makes me despair for humanity. Seriously. These are not difficult social cues to understand, yet an enormous swath of the human population refuses to alter their behavior. OP #1, if you’re reading this: your email gave me the “ick”. If you don’t want to give other women the same feeling, stop thinking about dating women at work and coming up with weird plans to corner them.

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