my boss thinks my employee is lying about having cancer

by Alison Green on November 4, 2024

A reader writes:

My operations manager, Burton, took me to one side on Friday to ask me whether I had seen any evidence that my employee, Belle, who had been off that week, really had cancer.

I am now second-guessing every interaction and whether I have either been manipulated or been a horrible boss.

Our team is part of a large nonprofit. Our current government-funded contract is to do work at a range of locations, so I rarely see my team face-to-face. On paper, Belle has not had a great year. She had to have her probation extended due to losing both parents in the space of a month, but I tried to make it clear that it was to give her a chance to recover at least a little from the loss. She passed and was doing fine until a month or so ago when she disclosed a cancer diagnosis. Which she then confirmed was stage 3, so I could prep HR for accommodations around her treatment plan. I asked for the dates of any appointments or any letters so I could book the leave for her without her having to take annual leave (we get very generous sick time in this country and with this company).

I’ve asked multiple times. Burton has asked multiple times. HR has asked us to ask her to chase a missing reference. Every time I ask, Belle she says she will do it that day but then something else will happen or she will change the subject. I started to feel like I was pestering her, but we need to know when she is going to be in the hospital so we can support her and cover the work she is scheduled for. I asked her again at lunchtime today and she promised to email the documents “at some point today.”

I fed this back to Burton and resumed my own appointments. Burton’s response was that something wasn’t right. At 4:45 pm, I received an email from Belle resigning with two weeks notice.

Have I pushed someone who’s had a lot of gravel to shovel this year over the edge by pushing for limited medical info we need to be able to support her, or is Burton right and this bears further investigation?

I have lost friends and relatives including a parent to cancer and I don’t know how I will react if it turns out she made it up. I also don’t know how I will react if it turns out Belle really is as ill as she says she is and just hasn’t sent the proof over because it makes it too real for her, and is resigning because work and all that has happened to her this year is too much.

If Belle is lying, will it impact Burton’s opinion of me and my judgment? And what else might she have been lying about? I am in a pickle.

It does seem possible that Belle was lying. Not responding to multiple requests for the info you needed, despite repeatedly promising to get it to you that same day, and then resigning when really pushed for it … well, it sounds like what someone might do if they’d been lying. In Burton’s shoes, I’d have the same questions; that’s going to cross your mind.

It’s also possible Belle wasn’t lying, and it’s all just been too much for her and she handled it less than well.

If we had a time machine and could go back for a redo, I’d say that when it got to the point that you felt like you were pestering her for the needed documentation, rather than continue to do that it would have made sense to sit down and talk with her to try to find out what was going on — something like, “I don’t want to keep pestering you for this stuff when you’re in the middle of a medical crisis, but I do need it because of XYZ. What’s the best way for us to handle this so  you have the space you need right now but we’re able to get the right leave booked?”

I’m also curious how essential it was that she get you the paperwork immediately. You’re not in the U.S. so I don’t know your laws or processes, but if there was room to back off and figure she would get it to you when she could — while letting her know of any firm deadlines that would affect her leave — that might have made sense. If she was lying, presumably that would have come out at some point (when she couldn’t produce any of the documentation you needed eventually) and if she wasn’t, it would have been a kindness to give her space if you could.

Now that she’s resigned, I don’t know that you’re going to find out for sure. If she was lying and she’s resigning because she’s run out of ways to keep the lie going, she’s probably not going to come clean up about it now.

But you can talk to her! She gave two weeks notice so she’s not gone immediately. Why not approach her the way you would if you didn’t think she might be lying? Approach her with compassion, and just check in on what’s going on, ask whether anything about how your workplace was handling this contributed to her decision, and ask whether there’s anything you can do to make her feel more supported. I don’t know what you’ll hear — and I don’t know that you’ll ever get a conclusive answer to what’s been happening — but that’s a reasonable way to navigate this, it gives her some benefit of the doubt without you losing anything if she is lying, and it will probably leave you and Burton feeling better about it than if you don’t.

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{ 208 comments }

{ 208 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Dawn*

    I think the answer at this point is that she’s leaving, and whether she was lying or not, it’s time to let it go and move on. I don’t know why it would “bear further investigation” now that she’s chosen to move on; whether truthful or not, Belle is no longer your problem.

    So don’t do that to yourself. No good can come of it.

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        1. duinath*

          Sure, but her health situation is not really OP’s concern anymore. If Burton wants to pursue it (…somehow?) that’s his lookout, but if I were OP I’d keep focused on the work, make sure everything’s where it needs to be, and start looking to fill the position.

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          1. Jellyfish Catcher*

            I’ve been diagnosed with cancer, out of the blue; it’s a shock. My (social) group gave compassion and support, which made a great difference. I can’t thank them enough.(and was successfully treated!).

            Sure, she’s not your top employee…but she’s had a tough year and maybe she actually has cancer. Now, she likely doesn’t have health insurance either.

            When people get suddenly overly stressed they can’t process things normally, they make panicked decisions and stuff gets dropped.
            You can still go with compassion; contact her and see if you can get the info and right the situation and at least get her health care insurance back.

            As for some of the comments, along the line of so what, she’s gone like Tuesday’s garbage…..your time will come when you need compassion and some support.

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            2. Lydia*

              Their comments are regarding needing to “investigate” whether she is actually ill or not. It’s no longer an issue because she’s decided to leave. If she has been diagnosed with cancer, hopefully leaving this job will be better for her since they don’t trust her and that can impact her health as well. If she isn’t sick, then they don’t have to worry about her lying about it because she’s leaving, and it doesn’t concern them anymore.

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            3. Nightbringer*

              I’m in the process of finding out if I have breast cancer or not. The process is a mess. I’m a mess. I was thinking about the information that they wanted such as appointments. She might just not know. I am in the US, it might be different for her, but my schedule and scheduling has been a nightmare. Congratulations on the successful treatment!

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              1. Happily Retired*

                Nightbringer, I didn’t see your post before replying to Jellyfish. Thinking of you, and hoping for the best!

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            4. Happily Retired*

              I’m so sorry to read about your diagnosis. – It sounds like you’re in remission now? If so, I’m very glad, and also that you had a supportive group.

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            5. Roland*

              Hey, I’m glad you got the support and treatment you needed and are doing well now.

              The kind kf support you got is not what’s in the letter; “she’s not your concern” anymore doesn’t mean “stop supporting her”, it means “stop trying to figure out if she’s lying”. When I am poorly, I don’t find it helpful for people to question if I am really sick or not.

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    2. Antilles*

      Exactly. The good news here is that she’s going to be gone in two weeks. If you don’t ever get closure on this (and I suspect you won’t), you can just write it off as “well, that was weird, she’s probably lying but who knows, whatever” and move along.

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      2. Ellie*

        I wouldn’t go so far as to say she’s probably lying. If she really has lost both her parents, then got a cancer diagnosis on top of it (as well as having her probation extended which, whatever OP says, would definitely read as ‘not that good at this new job either’), I can well see her deciding that she doesn’t want to deal with the added stress and just quitting. Her failing to get the needed documentation doesn’t carry that much weight, cancer doctors are busy people, and it can be hard to get them to write letters. Also, if she’s in the middle of scans, it can take a while to work out what the situation actually is, and what options she has (radiation, chemo, surgery, etc.)

        When my Auntie was diagnosed with cancer, initially nothing changed except the treatments, but about six months in, she decided that she didn’t want to spend the rest of what little life she had left at work. And that was her decision to make. I think the advice to check in on her is good, but I’d try to handle her with as much grace as possible.

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    3. carrot cake*

      Totally agree. I understand wanting to see what could have been done differently to avoid what seems like self-doubt in handling things, but each situation is different, and I recommend crossing that next bridge if and when it comes up again.

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      1. JFC*

        +1. I don’t think there’s anything to pursue with Belle here, but it might be a good time for OP to re-evaluate how they communicate with employees and if any general improvements can be made there. TBH, it does sound like a lot of info requests in a short period of time. Could something be done to streamline those? Are you making similar frequent requests of other employees?

        I would also think about how you check in with employees who are going through a tough time. Are there EAP services available and offered? Does everyone have ample PTO and do you have coverage plans to accommodate those? Has anyone else been acting a bit off and may need a conversation?

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        1. Cmdrshprd*

          “BH, it does sound like a lot of info requests in a short period of time. Could something be done to streamline those?”

          It really sounded to me like it was one info request that has to be followed up multiple times because Bella was not following through. In that it was one request that was asked 8 times, but had Bella provided the info after the first two requests the other 6 would not have happened.

          If someone is asking you for info to try and provide accommodation, it is not unreasonable for them to follow up, especially if it is for paperwork required by law/policies.

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        2. Guacamole Bob*

          I didn’t read it as a lot of separate info requests in a short time, I read it as repeated requests for the same information that she was failing to provide (likely dates and length of leave, documentation from her medical provider). It was only frequent because she kept promising to provide the info and then not doing so.

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          1. Reality.Bites*

            Years ago there was an employee where I worked pulling a cancer scam, but she made sure to keep everything under the limits where you needed documentation. At this company you needed a doctor’s note after 3 days of absence, but there was no actual limit on sick leave itself, so she could take off lots of days or half days without having to prove a thing.

            We were, however, very much an oversharing office, and we had two employees at the time undergoing cancer treatment who got suspicious of her from their conversations. She was suspended and asked to see the company doctor. When she didn’t turn up for that appointment she was fired.

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        3. cancer-logistics bot*

          Yeah, I thought it sounded like a lot of requests, too, and I feel two ways about it.
          |
          On the one hand, I had breast cancer last year, and oh my goodness, there is so much paperwork that goes along with cancer treatment. I had been listening to a podcast about someone who faked cancer right before I was diagnosed, and it became clear to me almost immediately how easy it would be to prove I actually had cancer if anyone asked. So, yeah, all of this could be cleared up incredibly quickly if she actually has cancer.

          But on the other hand, I think this really depends on what the requested information was and how rigid they were about what they needed.

          Like, if she didn’t want to tell them the type of cancer she had, it might have been hard to come up with paperwork that would disclose only the information she felt comfortable sharing. I do have tons of documentation, but I am not sure there’s much without the word “breast” on it.

          I also had everything scheduled as it came up, so at first, I could have shown evidence of when my next appointment was, but nothing past that. Once I started chemo, I could have said, “It’s every other week for two months and then every week for another three,” but I couldn’t have told you when I’d be having surgery or how long I’d need to be out for it.

          So if the managers were asking for a full schedule of her treatment plan, that sounds completely reasonable, but it might not have been something she had access to.

          Either way, it was her responsibility to communicate about all of that one way or another. But people handle this type of situation in a variety of ways, not all of them good. I think I would have tried to give as much flexibility as possible on the specifics.

          Last thought: When you frame something as “I need X from you so that I can help you,” it doesn’t sound entirely mandatory, and honestly, the annual leave vs. medical thing might not have felt very urgent to her. I knew I wasn’t going on vacation last year! All my time off was going to be for medical stuff, regardless of what it was called. And I couldn’t take a ton of time off work anyway because it’s not like the rent stopped being due.

          So if she gets a few weeks of leave, she might have just decided to use that and not worry about dealing with the additional logistics—I can see thinking that I wouldn’t need to provide documentation if I wasn’t taking extra time off.

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          1. Lydia*

            So if she gets a few weeks of leave, she might have just decided to use that and not worry about dealing with the additional logistics—I can see thinking that I wouldn’t need to provide documentation if I wasn’t taking extra time off.

            That’s easily explained, though. “I won’t be taking any time off that isn’t just normal PTO, so I don’t plan on needing the documentation!”

            Also, since this isn’t in the US, there may be different laws and protections for people going through treatment for illness that may require the employer to provide some time off.

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          2. MM*

            My question for the many speculations like this one is, why not just say “I’m having trouble getting the documentation together” or any other bit of transparency about the obstacles? It’s possible to give an explanation for delay without revealing further health information. Belle didn’t give any reason for the delay or acknowledge its existence, she just kept saying she’d send it that day and not doing it.

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    4. bamcheeks*

      That’s true if she is lying. But if she’s not lying and has given her notice because the company processes to manage sick leave were too stressful, that’s important information for the company to have.

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      1. Dawn*

        Well, unless that’s true and she chooses to speak up about that, I think the company is still going to have to, as they say in The Princess Bride, “get used to disappointment.”

        I maintain that no good is going to come of a confrontation. Perhaps the company can assess whether their sick leave process is too onerous entirely separate from this situation.

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        1. bamcheeks*

          Again, it’s only a “confrontation” if you’re assuming she is lying. “We’re sorry you’re leaving, best wishes with your health, is there anything we could have done differently to keep you on board?” isn’t a confrontation.

          And no, nobody is obliged to answer an employer’s question about why they are leaving. That doesn’t mean it’s bad for the company to give them the opportunity to, though.

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      2. Cmdrshprd*

        “has given her notice because the company processes to manage sick leave were too stressful, that’s important information for the company to have.”

        Maybe the company process was too much for Bella to handle, but it does not mean that it is a stressful or burdensome process. Asking someone can you tell us the days you will need leave and provide some sort of medical document that speaks to that does not sound very stressful/burdensome. A company can’t give you leave if they don’t know when you need said leave.

        Just not showing up on some days is not a reasonable method to get leave.

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        1. Dust Bunny*

          This–there isn’t a way for any company to make this a psychically effort-free process: They are going to need input to support the employee.

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        2. a clockwork lemon*

          Asking for planned time off and some substantiating documentation is pretty standard if you’re going to be out frequently, regardless of what’s being treated! Obviously cancer hits everyone differently, but even aggressive treatment plans happen on SOME sort of schedule and if a patient is functional enough to still be going to work it’s reasonable to assume that they will be able to communicate that schedule to their office.

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          1. OftenNotPredictable*

            During my last cancer scare (sadly I’ve had more than one) I was told I’d need to be available by cell phone at all times if I was diagnosed because I could be called in for treatments at any time. The time before that I was told to figure out a way to make any appointments they gave me work no matter how inconvenient or whatever else I was doing.

            My dad, who has managed to survive Leukemia for more than 30 years, gets calls telling him to do X or y and stops everything to do it.

            Even if your treatments or testing is on a regular schedule, your reaction to them is not. Sometimes you can work through any time you’re not actually in the hospital and sometimes it puts you out of commission for a few days or even longer with no rhyme o reason. For many people it absolutely would not be possible to provide a set schedule in advance with any regularity.

            Most employers I know have mostly managed to make it work, often via work at home during off hours if neccessary + judicious use of time off. Obviously if you’re never up to working that’s a different story and time to look at other options that might be available.

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        3. bamcheeks*

          I’m not pre-judging LW or their company or assuming they did anything wrong! I just think “could we have handled anything differently”’is a perfectly reasonable question to ask.

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        4. Full time reader, part time commenter*

          One of the biggest burdens of chronic illness is the onerous documentation required for the leave itself, the health insurance, the disability insurance, ad infinitum. There is no easy course although it sounds here as if help was being offered.

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      3. Ellie*

        There is a third option as well. She is finding the added stress of maintaining a job, as well as cancer treatment, too much, and was considering quitting anyway. She delayed getting the documents together until she’d fully made her mind up.

        OP may never get a full explanation, or they might, if they ask. It’s worth asking, but I’d do it with compassion. Accusing someone of faking cancer is incredibly serious, I would not do it on the information OP currently has.

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    5. Cmdrshprd*

      “I don’t know why it would “bear further investigation” now that she’s chosen to move on; whether truthful or not, Belle is no longer your problem.”

      I think because it could certainly impact the kind of reference if any they give. If they would have given Belle a good reference and said “She was great but had to resign due to medical issues, we would hire her back” But if Belle was lying that would put Belle in a not eligible for rehire, and we can confirm Belle worked from X date to Z date. In that instance I think trying to figure out if the was honest or lying does make sense.

      If Belle has a bad/negative reference anyways, even if she did have cancer the reference is still “Belle is not eligible for rehire and she worked X date to Z date.” I agree the lying/honesty is likely moot.

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      1. Dawn*

        I think you can just say, “We required documentation for her sick leave and she chose to resign rather than provide it,” you’ve probably said everything you need to say. By the sounds of it she’d only even been there a couple of months anyway and another situation that may or may not have happened resulted in “her probation being extended” so I don’t imagine she’d get a great reference regardless.

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        1. Cmdrshprd*

          Idk that Belle has only been there a few months.

          “On paper, Belle has not had a great year….She had to have her probation extended due to losing both parents in the space of a month… She passed and was doing fine until a month or so ago when she disclosed a cancer diagnosis.”

          It seems Belle has maybe been there a year, or close to it and Belle was doing well/okay enough for a decent reference.
          It is certainly possible for Belle to be having a bad year. I have known people who had parents pass away close in time to each other.

          While I don’t think the process the company asked for is burdensome, I can see how it might feel to stressful/overwhelming to someone dealing with cancer diagnosis and recentish lost of parents, that they just resign to try and deal with the health issues. Especially if OP is in a country with universal healthcare that work is not tied to health insurance.

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          1. Dawn*

            You might be right, but I don’t think it really changes how I feel here; I think the only thing they can really do is make things worse by doing something other than leaving it alone at this point.

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          2. MassMatt*

            There’s a lot of potential ambiguity in the letter, but IMO someone who had to have their probation extended should not get a “she was great, but…” reference.

            I agree with the top comment, that LW should let this go. It sounds as though they want to be compassionate and are second guessing their actions when needing documentation is pretty standard.

            The fact that the employee kept saying they’d get it to her “today” while never doing so is very suspicious, IMO.

            I bet if you checked this person’s employment history you’d find a lot of short-term jobs and supervisors who say she always seemed to have hard luck stories. But again, better to let it go.

            Reply ↓
            1. Sacred Ground*

              Her probation was extended because she lost both of her parents within a month. Then shortly thereafter got her cancer diagnosis.

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        2. bamcheeks*

          This would be a horribly punitive thing to do to someone who actually did have cancer and just wasn’t able to keep up with work, however.

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        3. Ellie*

          As far as references go though, that’s pretty damning. If she really has been diagnosed with cancer after losing both of her parents, then that’s a cruel approach to take. I’ve known at least a dozen people who lost both their parents within 6 months of each other. It’s a regular occurrence. So all we have is that she was dragging her feet with the paperwork around her time off. There are a lot of possible explanations for that.

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    6. Caramel & Cheddar*

      This. The problem resolved itself and LW has some guidance to use for what happens if a future direct report has a medical diagnosis that requires lots of leave.

      Taking her at her word that she did have cancer, if there’s an exit interview, maybe it’s something HR could ask about as part of a review of whether or not people feel like they can take those ample sick days. Was there some weird barrier to letting LW know about all the days she needed for leave? Was she worried she would be taking too many despite the sick days being generous? Would she be more inclined to share that with someone who wasn’t her boss? Sometimes even when you decide to quit, something that stuck in your craw that you chose not to deal with is something you might share with HR upon leaving so others don’t have to deal with it in the future.

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    7. Coffee Protein Drink*

      I think so too. I don’t see anything productive coming out of an investigation, just effort that could be better spent finding her replacment.

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    8. Hyaline*

      Yeah, unless there is *something else* you would be investigating (like you think the cancer was part of some kind of fraud, or that she was stealing from the company and covering with the cancer or something…), or she has some kind of continuation of benefits or a payout contingent on leaving on good terms that would be worth considering withholding (and really, I’d let it go), why bother? Even if she got some bonus time off for bogus appointments and technically “stole” that, ooof, she’s gone in a couple weeks. If she actually is rotten enough to lie about a cancer diagnosis, call yourself lucky and move on.

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    9. fhqwhgads*

      It sort of sounded like they may have already given her some leave from a government funded bucket? That’s the only possible reason there might be still to “investigate”. If none of that happened yet – because of the documentation that never appeared – then yeah, nothing to look into. It’s over.

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    10. I Can Never Remember My Previous Nicknames*

      I agree. It really doesn’t matter now whether she was lying or not. The only folks that I think have a real reason to want an answer would be if she did any fund-raising for her medical care. Cancer fakers and scammers exist, but largely they only get caught and punished if they can be prosecuted for wire fraud.

      Look ahead to filling her spot with someone else and hope she gets the help she needs, however it is she truly needs it.

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  2. LookAtMeI'mTheManagerNow*

    Well my employee with constant life issues had actually been stealing via their company credit card – a very significant amount – so yes sometimes people do take advantage of responding to life events generously. I don’t think that’s a reason not to do it, I just check up on everybody’s credit card balance now (for some reason there’s no ability to send me a weekly report).

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  3. LinesInTheSand*

    Hey OP, it’s good to keep in mind in these situations that sometimes you can do everything right and things still don’t turn out the way you want. It sounds like you handled it well. You did what you could for an employee who was struggling. You took them at their word, you went to bat for them with HR, you treated her first like a human rather than an employee. At some point, it’s out of your hands.

    Alison’s suggestions about what to do differently are the difference between “great” and “even more great”, not “terrible” vs “acceptable.”

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    1. Smithy*

      Yes – I will say that someone going through the loss of both parents, a cancer diagnosis, and a new job during the span of a year is A LOT. This isn’t to make the OP feel badly, but more so to contextualize that this year may really have just not been the year for Belle to be in a new job. That for all of the humanity and reasonable accommodation provided, that many circumstances in one year was always going to be incredibly overwhelming.

      I think there are a lot of examples that go through my mind of Belle being overwhelmed and perhaps handling some of this on her end in a way that she just didn’t have the personal bandwidth to fix or follow up. To be completely self-oriented, I had melanoma and for all of the alarm bells and anxiety that can come with that kind of diagnosis – my treatment was just cutting it out and follow up visits. Not to minimize or catastrophize the diagnosis, but I could see a situation went from Belle thinking she’d need ABCDEF treatment, it changed to just being AB treatment and walking that back feels exhausting. And again, not even saying it is this – but rather that people can both be fundamentally sharing the truth but feeling like as details change the conversation is different and that can be overwhelming.

      Flip side is if this person was lying about any of the above, then part of the reason for this level of follow up is how this doesn’t become snowball into a larger loss of trust.

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      1. Reiko*

        I was in a similar situation to the poster above.
        There’s two types of cancer. There’s the kind that needs chemotherapy or other treatments with all the awful side effects, possibly curing you or just buying time. The bad type. The one we all think of when someone says cancer

        Then there’s the second. The one where the prognosis is no expected impact to lifespan. Where treatment can include surgery and/or radiation but you’re not going to suffer many if any side effects. There’s not much impact in your day-to-day life. This is the type that gives you imposter syndrome. That makes you reluctant to even call it cancer because you’ve seen people have CANCER and you didn’t experience any of that. I needed two rounds of surgery + radiation and I still don’t like telling people because I didn’t need chemo so it doesn’t feel like real cancer.

        It sounds like Bella has had it rough. A cancer diagnosis would not help. If she told people only to find out later that she got the ‘easy type’, I can see her deciding to quit rather than have to explain that she doesn’t actually need much accommodations. I could understand if she feels like people would assume she lied about the diagnosis to cover for her bad performance.

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        1. Irish Teacher.*

          Yeah, I had thyroid cancer and…just told most people I needed to have my thyroid removed due to a nodule on it, because…that was basically the case and it’s not where people’s minds go when they hear “cancer.” I did tell my principal and head of department it was cancer, because there would be follow-ups and there was a small chance of recurrence and so on.

          She did say it was stage 3 apparently, but I guess it still depends on the type of cancer. (Fun fact: papillary thyroid cancer doesn’t actually have a stage 3 for younger patients; even distant spread is considered stage 2.)

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        2. Audrey Horne*

          As someone currently going through this I would like to say that it took just over a month from the initial diagnosis for me to get an appointment with an oncologist and a treatment plan.

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  4. GoodNPlenty*

    I’ve worked with a similarly tragedy struck person who quit after being unable to produce medical documents. Turns out they were lying about the deaths in the family as well. The worst part is that a company who would always extend support and sympathy feels abused and then casts a suspect eye on the next person who has genuine need.

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        1. OPnemi*

          OP here, funny you should say that… don’t want to go into any more detail for fear of accidental outing but let’s just say the team is questioning a lot of information we were given from application onwards.
          I will be chalking this up to experience and hopefully not letting it affect how I support others in the team.
          Thanks Alison and everyone for the helpful advice, different perspectives, and supportive comments!

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          1. Productivity Pigeon*

            I kinda hope that in the end, she was honest. Even though that means she has cancer.

            Faking tragedies is just such awful behavior and no one who is well does it.

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          2. Ellis Bell*

            Does “from application onwards” mean the reference that never materialised? IMO, that’s the thing that’s easiest to investigate because it’s not her personal medical information, and was always squarely in your purview as her employer to look into; call up the company HR for general facts and dates if her named person is unresponsive. I’d do this for two reasons; in case you’re ever in the position of offering her a reference, and also to check if your own hiring practices need tightening up and references maybe checked a bit sooner.

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          3. Hydrangea MacDuff*

            Op, I was thinking about your concern whether others will question your judgement in the future.

            Even if Belle did lie about all of it, you didn’t have (enough) reason to question her, at first, and what you taught your colleagues/other direct reports is that you will treat people with dignity and empathy, while still following your org’s policies. I would rather be and have that manager than the places you hear about that require you to produce an obituary or a death certificate before they will approve bereavement leave. You didn’t do anything wrong; it’s quite possible that Belle did.

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      2. Liz the Snackbrarian*

        When I worked for a city government I took bereavement leave when a grandparent died and had to give a copy of the obituary to my manager. OP’s work place may require the same.

        Reply ↓
        1. OPnemi*

          Not for bereavement, we give benefit of doubt (although we do record who has been reported deceased so people can’t take multiple days off over the years for funerals for the same person).
          It’s generally standard practice in this country to provide appointment letters or at least a text/screenshot to show when flexibility is needed, especially when the law states we have to accommodate a person who wants to work but needs support for health reasons.

          Reply ↓
        2. Alan*

          I’ve never been asked to prove a death, and I’ve taken time off for several over the years. I wouldn’t appreciate the mistrust inherent in such a request. And I wouldn’t even question it here except that they couldn’t prove the cancer diagnosis which calls everything else they’ve claimed into question. For me anyway.

          Reply ↓
        3. AcademiaNut*

          My job provides very good bereavement leave, but requires documentation. We’re talking two to three weeks for close relatives, that can be taken in chunks up to about four months after the death. So in that case, two parents would be six weeks of leave.

          Reply ↓
        4. ObitExpense*

          Wow. Obituaries are expensive – newspapers are hurting so they charge up the wazoo. We made the decision to pay for one for my mother, but resented the $400. Before we realized we’d actually intended to run her obit in both the paper where she lived the last 30 years of her life and the one where we lived when I was growing up but chose not to pay for the latter.

          Anyway, I can see plenty of people chosing to forego an obituary because of the cost.

          Also, it took some time to write and get it published. I wouldn’t have been able to provide an obit for my mother until I came back to work.

          Reply ↓
        5. Wishing and Hoping*

          Placing an obituary is very expensive in the U.S. Not all people even want one to be placed about them. I would not make an obituary required documentation.

          Reply ↓
      4. Pyjamas*

        Ditto

        “To lose one parent may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness” —Oscar Wilde

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        1. Brev*

          This is a very strange use of this quote. Particularly because in its original context it is said by a character in “The Importance of Being Ernest” who you are not supposed to agree with.

          The thing is, spouses dying at close times to each other isn’t an unlikely or uncommon situation – beyond the higher likelihood of them being together if there is an accident, often a widowed spouse will die soon after their spouse’s death. That’s an observed statistic. It’s because grief and stress can have a very negative effect on health and make someone more vulnerable to a lot of health issues. Someone saying that they had both parents dying in the same year should not in itself raise any suspicion that they are lying.

          Maybe you know that and that’s not what you meant by using the quote, but that’s how it comes across.

          Reply ↓
    2. Lisa*

      Yeah, when it was both parents and then stage 3 cancer, my radar would have been tingling without the paperwork. Yes, tragedies can stack like that, and I’d want to be sensitive and supportive. But I would still be wondering and want to see the paperwork. Especially as it sounds like the paperwork was needed in order to take the sick leave. It’s not like the leave wasn’t available, just needed so that things could get in order. Yes, it’s entirely possible this person did just have two awful things happen. But if she is struggling to get the paperwork in just to get the sick leave she needs, it sounds like maybe taking time out of the workforce to deal with her issues is not a bad idea. I hope it’s all legit and she comes out of the treatment well. But there are awful people in the world who take advantage of the trust we typically have in others. Being a little more cautious is warranted, unfortunately.

      Reply ↓
      1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

        Yeah, I could see parent died –> other close behind (not uncommon, particularly with elderly couples) –> employee minimized her own symptoms to deal with end of life/final arrangements/ongoing grief –> 2 parent deaths and stage 3 cancer. That said, at some point, you need documentation, and I would’ve started requesting it when OP did (not for the bereavements, but for the employee’s own diagnosis).

        Reply ↓
  5. Not Tom, Just Petty*

    The concern that OP’s boss will think less of OP because he “got played” by an underwhelming employee…
    Thoughts on this? I think OP did as much as possible within professional norms. OP didn’t think of a meeting, the way Alison suggested, but that’s why people write to her.
    OP used the information available and acted appropriately. Once she is gone, move on. There’s no benefit to “is she/isn’t she”?
    If Burton decides OP failed in some duty to the company, I think that’s a personal problem, not professional.

    Reply ↓
    1. Elbe*

      Agreed. Even if Belle is lying, I don’t think it looks bad for the LW.

      They did everything right, including requesting documentation. If that is, indeed, what drove Belle to resign then that’s a sign that the process works. If the diagnosis was real, then the LW did everything possible to help. Either way, it’s a good outcome.

      Reply ↓
    2. Cochrane*

      That was my feeling as well, the old “optics” problem. Unfortunately, I don’t see what LW could have done differently here without a crystal ball. If Burton wants to use this to demonstrate some kind of management shortcoming, there’s nothing stopping that.

      Reply ↓
    3. Guacamole Bob*

      Managers have to choose somewhere on the spectrum of “believe everything an employee says and be super generous about all responses” and “demand proof of everything, be a stickler for everything and make it hard for employees to take time off or use flexibility.” Anywhere in the middle, you run the risk of being lied to and taken advantage of, and also of denying needed support to someone going through a very tough time.

      In most functional workplaces, I think it’s better for managers to be a bit more on the “believe and support people” end, even if it means running the risk of someone lying about some big stuff, and lessen the risk that you’ll make tough times even harder for employees who are genuinely going through something.

      We’ve seen letters about people lying about things like cancer before; it’s generally not a sign of someone who is mentally well, has a solid moral compass, and has their life together. It may suck to feel taken advantage of by someone like that, but it’s a sign that you’re a compassionate human being.

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    4. Irish Teacher.*

      I doubt a reasonable boss would think less of the OP but I can well understand why the OP might worry about it. It often feels like you “should have been able to tell” when somebody was lying, but the truth is that a) it’s not that easy and b) in this case, even if you did suspect, you would need to thread carefully because those are pretty awful things to false accuse somebody of lying about. And I think most reasonable bosses would agree that the OP did the right thing.

      Reply ↓
  6. Pastor Petty Labelle*

    I don’t know if your boss will think you have horrible judgment. Sounds like your boss was also trying to be supportive until things didn’t add up. So I don’t think he thinks you made a terrible decision in supporting this person.

    In an ideal world, you would have asked her about an alternative way to get the paperwork. Or she would have volunteered she just didn’t have the bandwidth to do it and what other ways could she document what she needed. But we don’t live in an ideal world and sometimes we just do the best we can.

    Reply ↓
  7. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

    Okay, as someone with a (fairly recently) diagnosed form of the terminal nasties there’s several options here but I’m wondering if she’s hit the stage I am where it just becomes…too much.

    The questions, the concern (seriously I do NOT want it) can become something you just don’t want to even think about. It’s a serious case of ‘if I just hide my head in the sand it won’t be happening to me’ that can persist even after telling others. Even questions about appointments can seem too much. I’ve made the decision to resign permanently (I have a ludicrous notice period though).

    So she may have decided that it’s time to go.

    However it could be she’s faking. It could be something else that’s wrong that she doesn’t want to admit to and is scared of being found out.

    Ultimately though, she’s leaving and it’s out of your control now but for what it’s worth I don’t think you did anything wrong at all here. You dealt with her in a very professional way whatever the situation and have nothing to change or blame yourself for.

    (Now if you’d started making comments about why she wasn’t losing her hair, or wasn’t having treatment – not all of us choose to – or things about her weight or how she didn’t look like a sufferer then that would be very different)

    Reply ↓
    1. Ginger Cat Lady*

      She might be lying, but also she might just not want to think about it or do paperwork or anything. I know when I was first diagnosed, going to work and dealing with work actually felt like a nice break from dealing with my health. And I hated that job! But those mundane reports were something I could focus on that wasn’t death, surgery or chemotherapy. I felt a totally self-imposed urgency to be caught up and have things easy to take over while I was gone, too. So interrupting me and reminding me about the Big C Thing would probably have also gotten a “yeah, yeah, I’ll do it later” procrastination.
      And I agree that big shows of concern were just annoying to deal with. Don’t make me reassure YOU.

      Reply ↓
    4. HannahS*

      I agree with this, and I echo that I’m sorry to hear about your illness. I enjoy reading what you have to say, and I hope you’ll stick around here.

      Reply ↓
    6. OPnemi*

      Thank you, we are on the same page with this, especially the last part about invasive comments. I hope your nasties get denastified as far as they can be.

      Reply ↓
      2. Irish Teacher.*

        Absolutely the same. I always enjoy Keymaster’s posts and feel they give real insight. I am sorry to hear about this.

        Reply ↓
    9. Dasein9 (he/him)*

      Yeah, I was wondering if she was struggling with the decision of whether to undergo treatment, not when to.

      Reply ↓
      1. Health anon*

        Yeah, I can totally see that. I have dealt with multiple health issues in the last year plus various illnesses, accidents and recently also one death in the family. The only reason I was able to barely stay on top of things was having left my previous job without anything lined up.
        One doctor was apparently baffled why I had not dealt with my latest issue* in a timely manner, but compared to the other stuff it just seemed so minor I just … couldn’t do it any earlier.
        *That one at least turned out to be harmless in the end.

        Yes, it’s possible the person in this story lied, but the fairy of shitty life events does not necessarily ask if you’re already good for the year.

        Reply ↓
    11. Health anon*

      My thoughts are with you as well. May you have kind and competent support throughout so that you can make the best possible decisions for yourself.

      Reply ↓
    12. Alpaca Bag*

      Hey, Keymaster – I consistently find your comments to be helpful, reasonable, and highly relatable. I can tell that you will make good decisions about how to handle the nasties and I wish you well. Here’s a hug: (((((Keymaster of Gozer)))))

      Reply ↓
    13. MEHSquared*

      That sucks, Keymaster. I have always appreciated your thoughtful comments and I wish the best that is possible for you.

      Reply ↓
    14. Tupac Coachella*

      This was what made me so uncomfortable with the implication that the resignation was a sign she was lying. It’s just as plausible (if not more) that Belle is out of bandwidth after having so much piled on in a short period. Sometimes people just need to focus 100% on themselves. In the company’s view it’s “Why won’t she let us help her keep her job? We’re being so nice about this!” but for her, it’s one more logistical thing among many, and work didn’t make the cut of things she’s prioritizing. It’s hard for many of us to imagine that someone just doesn’t care that much about their job anymore-but not having anything more critical on your plate than staying employed is a privileged position. I fail to see any downside of giving her the benefit of the doubt at this point (with the caveat that due diligence should happen on financials and possible fraud points, but I think that should happen anytime someone transitions out of a role).

      I share others’ sentiments Keymaster; I very much value your contributions here and I’m sorry to hear this.

      Reply ↓
  8. Nicosloanica*

    The goal of a good procedure, I think, is that it will work the same way whether someone is lying or not. In this case, I think you and the company acted reasonably OP. I’ve certainly been the overwhelmed person scrambling to provide details that other people feel they urgently need right now for reasons beyond my understanding, but I don’t see evidence that was the cause of your problems.

    Reply ↓
  9. HR guy*

    If this were in the United States, I’d say that in my experience within HR medical leave management, getting medical documentation when you have a real condition is trivially easy. Any competent healthcare office is very well versed into how to produce FMLA documentation, and that goes doubly so for clinics that treat very serious health conditions like cancer.

    Which is to say that I would lean strongly towards thinking that this employee was lying. If this is somewhere other than the USA, maybe that changes things?

    Reply ↓
    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Yes, for something the “size” of a cancer diagnosis, I would think the medical office has something like a patient care coordinator whose job explicitly includes giving you the paperwork to formalize any leave request.

      Reply ↓
      1. Anon for This*

        My oncologist’s office had that. So did my wife’s. And I needed to get all of that information for my insurance company (I’m in the US), so I could easily provide the info to my company for my time off. Even when I was overwhelmed, sending that information was the easiest part of dealing with all of the awfulness around cancer.

        I agree this is no longer OP’s problem. Let it drop.

        Reply ↓
      2. Dust Bunny*

        My mom is in the hospital right now (she’s going to be fine) and, yes, the patient care coordinator has been around and has given us packets of info, her work phone number, etc.

        The very few times I’ve needed documentation to stay out of work, it’s been a piece of cake. Granted, it wasn’t for anything remotely as serious as cancer, but since needing leave for cancer treatments is to be expected I imagine oncologists have the paperwork at their fingertips.

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      3. WS*

        Not always. I’ve had two rounds with it and while the second round was well co-ordinated in terms of paperwork, the first round was an absolute shambles and I ended up with no income for over a month because the doctors kept handing the admin work off to each other and I didn’t have the paperwork to apply for unemployment benefits in time. The endocrinologist thought the surgeon should do it, the surgeon thought the endocrinologist should do it, the GP wouldn’t do it because they’d misdiagnosed me for over a year and were still denying it, and I simply didn’t have the energy or money to try elsewhere.

        That said, in this case it’s no longer the problem of the letter writer.

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    2. FashionablyEvil*

      I had the same thought–this sort of documentation is basically templated (e.g., “Name is under my care for X and requires A, B, and C over Y time frame.”)

      Reply ↓
    3. Artemesia*

      This. The odds that she was lying are very very VERY high as this isn ot a complicated kind of evidence to produce. And the odds that the parents story ws bogus are quite high as well. Sometimes a whole series of awful things happen in someone’s life. But when a new not very competent employee suddenly has all those things happening to delay accountability — well in my experience those are giant red flags that the employee is not being honest.

      Reply ↓
    4. Ashley*

      If she’s Canadian, she would have instant documentation. Most of us can access that documentation on our provincial ID app without the need to ask for it from a doctor.

      The same is true for the UK, as I just had to use their hospital system myself as a visitor. Everyone gets pinged in an app or via text.

      Reply ↓
      1. Dawn*

        Speaking as a Canadian: your WHAT

        I believe such a thing possibly exists in BC, but there’s no “provincial ID app” in any other province or territory that I’m aware of.

        Reply ↓
          1. Angie S.*

            If it’s Ontario, my experience tells me that the letter could be delayed due to the doctors’ workload. However, it will get done because they understand that their patients need them for their insurance claims/long term sick leave. I have never heard anyone who says that they are NOT able to get the letters… just might not be in a timely fashion.

            Reply ↓
            1. Dawn*

              It doesn’t sound like Belle ever claimed that she couldn’t get the letter? She kept promising to do it and then not following through, or offering an update.

              Also worth noting that some 2.5 million people in Ontario don’t have a family doctor because there is a drastic shortage.

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        2. Ashley*

          Come on. This drama is unwarranted. It may not be exactly the same system, but I have friends in Ontario who have logged into OHIP see their medical test records, and same same but different for family members in NS and AB.

          Reply ↓
          1. Dawn*

            I can’t view shit online in Ontario without using a private provider’s portal – and, frequently, paying for it.

            Now, there is such a thing as an “EHR” (Electronic Health Record) but it’s explicitly not accessible by patients… and it rarely has any information in it anyway. OHIP will provide information on procedures they have been billed for, but does not under any circumstances host or provide medical test records.

            Anyway. Point is, contrary to your claim that patients in Canada have access to “instant documentation,” in most of the country it can actually be very difficult to obtain your medical records or a doctor’s note. It’s certainly anything but free and instant.

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        3. AKrauss*

          Yeah, I have a provincial ID app in BC and can view things like my MRI results online, and it still took me months to coordinate the “right” documentation between my HR, the doctor’s office, and the rest of my medical team. I’m sure it’s more streamlined in oncology, but it was not at all trivial for me and I absolutely had to make specific requests. It was basically a whole part-time job.

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    5. AnotherOne*

      I have to ditto this. When my office was trying to figure out how myself and some other coworkers were going to be full-time WFH due to sick family members, it was briefly thought we needed to complete FMLA paperwork.

      I gave the paperwork to a nurse at the beginning of an appointment and it was completed by the time we left. Not even an hour.

      Obviously, it’ll depend on the medical office (and possibly your employer- some may have more hoops you need to jump thru.) And my family had the benefit of my sister being tasked as family advocate- she handles all the paperwork, appointments, etc.

      But it was incredibly easy to get done.

      Reply ↓
    6. RC*

      When I ended up in the ER earlier this year, they literally gave me a printed out doctor’s note to give to my employer, with my discharge packet. I didn’t need it cause my employer’s got my back fortunately, but I thought that said something about us as a society.

      That being said, I could also see it plausibly possible that she’s just overwhelmed and applying for the leave makes it “too real” and coordination etc, so she decided to resign instead. You might never know the truth, but it costs $0 to continue interacting with her as if everything is true for the next 2 weeks. I’d rather give someone the benefit of the doubt and have it turn out they’re lying, than accuse someone of lying who wasn’t (but it sounds like you’re still doing the former).

      Reply ↓
    7. Always Science-ing*

      I’m in Canada and it was very easy for me to get the documentation I need for multiple long-term medical leaves for serious illness. It’s either been just a note from one of my physicians or a form that my workplace has the physician complete. My workplace reimbursed me for any fees the physician’s office charged. My physicians also were very accommodating in making the process as quick, and simple, for me as possible. I was so ill I was nearly bed bound and still found the request for documentation reasonable and fairly easy to complete. To the OP, I would never consider someone asking me for needed information, and following up if I was late/slow, to be unreasonable/pestering.

      Reply ↓
      1. AKrauss*

        I’m also in Canada and, while getting a letter saying I was in treatment and we were still determining a timeline was trivial, getting a letter that had all of the information my HR wanted was basically a part-time job.

        There were things that made it more complicated but in general every medical professional I had was keen for me to take time off and recover and somehow nothing they wrote was “right”. The back and forth with HR was exhausting and demoralizing and absolutely meant that my boss and her leadership team thought I was lying about having provided doctor’s notes.

        Reply ↓
    8. Malarkey01*

      This- if it was something that can be a little harder to seek care for (mental health crisis, difficult to diagnose illness) I could understand needing to provide a little more grace. However a stage 3 cancer is going to come with a lot of paperwork and easy to access documentation. Even if it’s as simple as I can get you proof of upcoming appointments and the other documentation will follow. Producing absolutely nothing is very suspect.

      I also have sympathy for people dealing with tough news and being overwhelmed but there are also things you need to provide to keep your job and it’s not dispassionate to ask for those.

      After the second missed documentation I would have a direct conversation to ask exactly what was the delay and insist on a firm fast turnaround time.

      Reply ↓
    9. Ellis Bell*

      Getting documentation from UK doctors is a really standardised process, because long term sick leave is government paid, and the NHS is a government entity, as is the NHS’ occupational health division (aimed at supporting employees in such cases). You might struggle to get paperwork from your doctor if your employer were asking for something ridiculous, like certification for a few days off, (you are supposed to self certify for small amounts of time, under 7 days), but for something like this, no doctor’s surgery would dream of refusing a cancer patient’s request. It would be proactively offered. Honestly, the OP really, really requires a doctor’s fit-note to make sure that the employee is able to do her duties and is supported appropriately, whether that support is with time in, or time off. I just had a friend (recently diagnosed with ME) go through the whole process with occupational health and even though she’s submitted all paperwork, and responded to her employer promptly, the fact that no one can say when she’ll be recovered enough to do her pretty physical job means she’s been medically retired to be supported by the government on long term sick pay. There isn’t a reasonable accommodation they could offer, but they needed the fit note first in order to ascertain that.

      Reply ↓
    10. Anima*

      Yeah, I’m in Germany, famous country of bureaucracy – and my mum just went through the while ordeal. Even she got her paperwork in a timely fashion.

      Reply ↓
    11. Slooooooooow*

      Not mine. For one thing, all of the offices want appointments now do they get reimbursed for the time. And then if it’s a complicated form as opposed to a straightforward letter they’ll take it and deal with it
      ayer then snail mail it to you. It can take forever.

      Reply ↓
  10. Samwise*

    Speaking from personal experience, sometimes it does take that long to chase down the documentation, make sure it is completed correctly, sent to the correct office…

    But in that case, I’ve said to HR: I’m trying to get X document from Y medical provider. I’ve done A, B, and C to follow up. I will get it to you as soon as I can get it from Y medical provider. I wouldn’t say, I’ll get it to you today.

    Also, and this doesn’t excuse “Belle,” but when you are ill and/or under serious family stress, you can fully intend to take care of getting that document turned in, but just…don’t, or just can’t because it’s one more damn thing to do.

    Reply ↓
    1. Person from the Resume*

      I do think continuing to promise to deliver the paper ** today** and not do it becomes suspicious without any other excuse.

      Plus the extra info that it’s often a fairly easy form to get from a doctor because this is standard for serious diagnosis which require time off.

      Reply ↓
  11. Falling Diphthong*

    I think most likely is that she lied, felt trapped by the lie, and decided fleeing and starting over was the only way out of the thicket she’d woven.

    But suppose nothing was a lie. In that case, I don’t think her leaving was because of anything you or your boss did around “So when will you need leave?” which is a totally normal workplace ask. I think it was her realizing that she did not have the capacity to handle work, illness, and everything else happening in her life, and for whatever combination of circumstances (on spouse’s insurance? lives somewhere with national health?) decided that work was the burner she could turn off right now.

    For the reference question: Would she be eligible for rehire? It sounds like with what you actually know, rather than wonder about, the answer would be “Yes, though she would not be a strong candidate given her past performance.” Just let that be the framing and assume she is off out of your purview.

    Reply ↓
    1. Great Frogs of Literature*

      I agree with all of this.

      Another option: Her prognosis is bad enough (or possibly bad enough) that she looked around and said to herself, “If I might die next year, I don’t really want to spend my last good weeks here,” and decided to spend her time on things that are more important to her. (But didn’t say that because that’s A Lot to dump on your new-ish job/manager.)

      And if any of the not-lying things are true, I certainly wouldn’t to give a reference that either outright says or implies that she’s a cheat and a liar, should she be in a position to get references in the future.

      Hmm, I’m now wondering if there’s some fine line way to answer that reference question that doesn’t unjustifiably tank her changes, accuse her of anything you can’t prove, or reveal her personal information, but might cause her new job to call you up again, if, say, her parents happen to die during her probation period next year…

      Reply ↓
  12. B*

    I struggle to see how the LW could have done anything better here. The health issue, if legitimate, would be overwhelming to confront. But all the more reason for LW to remind her to submit the paperwork so that she could receive all the benefits she was entitled to. If it was a lie, LW’s persistence in following the procedures got them to the right result without having to confront or accuse the employee of wrongdoing. Seems like the best case scenario all around.

    Reply ↓
  13. Carole from Accounts*

    I worked through my cancer treatments (by choice, it was the one thing that felt normal at the time and actually helped my mental health) but the key was communicating when I would be unavailable and how my returns after procedures were going. The key here, and what seems to be missing from the situation above, is really clear communication.

    It depends on the country and the kind of cancer but most of these procedures are scheduled really rigidly, so it baffles my mind how Belle wasn’t able to provide the schedule, and we can only speculate why, whether the whole thing was a lie, or Belle was simply overwhelmed by a lot of stressful events in a short period of time. Echoing some other comments that OP could have maybe tried different methods of communicating or mixed up the message on why the information was important.

    Reply ↓
    1. I Have RBF*

      It depends on the country and the kind of cancer but most of these procedures are scheduled really rigidly, …

      LOL, no. With my wife, they said “chemo every two weeks”, but WE (patient and spouse) had to schedule the appointments. The only stuff they actually scheduled were monthly follow-ups with the oncologist, in a video appointment. We had to manage side effects, not them. If we forgot to schedule it, it didn’t happen. For reference, she has leiomyosarcoma, and the provider is Kaiser. Do they suck? Yes.

      Reply ↓
  14. Benihana scene stealer*

    They might be lying, but I don’t see: 1) how you’ll find out either way, and 2) Now that they’re leaving anyway I think it’s not your problem anymore

    Reply ↓
  15. Strive to Excel*

    For those folks who’ve dealt with coordinating paperwork like this – if you’ve got a doctor’s office dragging their feet, is it possible or desirable to give your HR team permission to contact them directly? Or would that be a bad idea?

    Reply ↓
    1. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Nah, if they won’t respond to a patient, they really won’t respond to some other random person who isn’t their client.

      Reply ↓
    2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Actually yes. HR may have forms they can send over, along with your signed permission to release the information. The doctor’s office then can complete the required forms without having to create ones for this patient. The forms HR may need may be simpler than the doctor’s office think are necessary which could take more time.

      At the very least it relieves the patient of the burden of having one more thing to do when they are exhausted.

      Reply ↓
    3. dulcinea47*

      it simply doesn’t work like this. The employee is obligated to provide the paperwork the employer needs if they want FMLA or similar leave. You can’t get someone else to do it for you.

      Reply ↓
      1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        Of course you can. Otherwise how would someone who is incapacitated get paperwork filled out?

        When I had to be out for 2 months, I gave permission for my HR to talk to my Dr ‘s office directly to get what they needed. Everyone kept me in the loop on what they shared, but they definitely handled it without me.

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    5. RagingADHD*

      Bad idea. That’s just another layer of forms you have to fill out, and it gives HR too much access to your health records. An ethical HR person doesn’t want that kind of access, and in the event you have someone in the HR office with inappropriate boundaries (which does happen from time to time), you’re creating the opportunity for major loss of privacy.

      Reply ↓
    6. JustMyImagination*

      My company outsources medical leave to an insurance company so that nobody within my HR department knows reasons for requests or private medical information. I had to take leave to be my husband’s caretaker and it was a bear to coordinate. He moved from a general medical floor, to an ICU at a different hospital, to their medical floor and then to a physical rehab facility. Everytime the insurance company had a question, I had to explain the whole thing to a new team of drs and coordinators.

      Reply ↓
    7. Productivity Pigeon*

      I live in a country with public healthcare and a well built-out social safety net.

      Longterm sick pay is paid by the government but the employer has a VERY far reaching rehabilitation responsibility.

      Even so, HR would not have access to any health records nor be able to contact medical professionals.

      HR are allowed to participate in rehabilitation conferences where medical staff and other relevant actors like the union and the manager might be, but they wouldn’t have any direct contact other than that.

      Reply ↓
    8. WontWork*

      Bad idea, and most doctor’s offices won’t do it.

      Also, many doctors now require an appointment to write letters or fill out forms so they get some reimbursement for the time. So it can take quite some time to get it all sorted out.

      Reply ↓
  16. cindylouwho*

    As someone who’s been very sick before (not cancer), coordinating with work and (for me) school, and doctors, and finance offices, and family, and friends quickly became VERY overwhelming on top of already feeling absolutely terrible and just trying to keep myself going. Things fall through the cracks quickly, and you do things out of character. I’m not saying this person definitely wasn’t lying, but it can be tough and I definitely thought about just ghosting/leaving a lot of things at the time.

    Reply ↓
    1. Health anon*

      Sigh, too true. It’s only going through something like that that I got an idea how difficult it might get quickly. For now I’m slowly moving towards wrapping the most recent stuff up, but I dare say it’ll take at a moment to get back to “normal”.

      I hope things have been resolved or that your treatment plan continues to work, whichever is appropriate.

      Reply ↓
    2. Camelid coordinator*

      I agree! The greatest gift I ever received in my work life was being able to go on administrative leave while I sorted out what my (Stage 2) cancer treatment would be. I ended up having so many additional tests and biopsies that it was almost a month before my surgery happened. About half of the month was technically vacation but it was still so helpful.

      Reply ↓
  17. dulcinea47*

    I know someone who was having health problems and just… got tired of doing paperwork to prove it and quit her job. In the end it had very little to do with the actual health problems, but she wasn’t lying about them.

    Reply ↓
  18. girlie_pop*

    When a close family member of mine was going through treatment for late-stage cancer, it was so hectic: bouncing between different hospitals and clinics, trying to figure out all the testing and treatment, getting conflicting information from different medical professionals and their offices (Yes, let’s start chemo, wait, let’s not start it until we have this test, let’s schedule surgery, wait, we’re not going to schedule surgery until we’ve done this test, oh wait now surgery is not an option, and on and on and on), and very fast changes in her condition and ability to work and manage her own affairs.

    And she even had a lot of support from another family member who works in the medical field and helped her navigate it. Maybe LW’s employee was lying, but I just wanted to pipe in as someone who saw a family member go through this and saw how hectic and administratively challenging it was.

    It seems like it doesn’t really matter since she quit, but it maybe would have been kind to have a sit-down where you explained the problems this delay was causing and an explanation of how LW couldn’t keep holding HR and their boss off and maybe offering a day or afternoon off to get all of the information she needed together. If she was lying, it would have told her the jig was up, but if she wasn’t, it would have driven home how important this info was and given her a chance to bear down and do everything she needed to.

    Reply ↓
    1. pls*

      >(Yes, let’s start chemo, wait, let’s not start it until we have this test, let’s schedule surgery, wait, we’re not going to schedule surgery until we’ve done this test, oh wait now surgery is not an option, and on and on and on)

      “You’re going to die soon if you don’t get this surgery quickly. Also, we have a waiting list; not sure how long. Oh, and we really don’t recommend you’re going to another hospital, because we’re the best. Yes, even if another hospital promised they’d fit you in this week.”

      The problem with being sick is that a lot of the administrative side is just so ridiculous, hurry-up-and-wait, it seems unbelieveable to anyone not going through it, and that makes that you don’t really want to talk about it because it seems like you’re lying/exaggerating even if you’re not.

      And then you have to make decisions about what sort of treatment you’d like (or sometimes you aren’t choosing between treatments offered, but between doing the only thing the doctor recommends vs seeking a second opinion, etc.) so even to the extent that the hopsital is offering a clear plan, you still don’t know what you’re up to.

      I’m not really seeing anything that indicates Belle’s faking it; this all seems fairly standard ‘fck it sucks to be sick’ stuff to me.

      Reply ↓
      1. Wishing and Hoping*

        Another possibility, that I’ve not seen mentioned yet, is that so many challenges in one year, Belle is dealing with clinical depression. Such depression can make it so a person has a really difficult time completing all the things the need to get done. Personally, I’m going to wish her well, whatever is going on as to her own health.

        Reply ↓
  19. mreasy*

    Not sure if Alison or OP chose “Belle” as the anonymized name, but whoever it was clearly listens to the same podcasts I do.

    Reply ↓
        1. OPnemi*

          Oh. My. Gods. I just googled “Australia Belle” and whooo-eee. Definitely should have just gone with Fergus and Wakeena.

          Reply ↓
  20. Jonathan MacKay*

    Back in 2008/2009, my father was diagnosed with stage 3B cancer. Originally, he had been told that it was stage 1, so would only require surgery such that he could return to work after a brief recovery period. Thanks to the hospital’s SOP of doing a biopsy on any removed cancerous tissue, they found that it was actually far more advanced. ((Timing being what it was – if the surgery had been a month later, it probably would’ve been stage 4!)) Even still, his chemotherapy ended up being one newly approved by OHIP. (Ontario’s provincial health insurance)

    His work was more than willing to accommodate the change of plans, without too much hassle.

    On the other hand, I’ve worked at places which almost demanded blood samples to prove illness with how difficult it was to get the time off. Sadly, I think the reality is that it varies enough from business to business and boss to boss that there’s no way to really predict how it will go.

    As far as the scenario described here is concerned, I think there’s a lot to consider about trusting one’s gut if something seems off…. It may not be off at all, but that doesn’t mean checking into it was a waste of time!

    Reply ↓
    1. Seashell*

      Great letter. I hope she’s doing well and those co-workers were terminally embarrassed about their gossiping.

      Reply ↓
    2. TQB*

      WOW. But also, not really OT – a perfect example of why in a professional setting, the default MUST be to believe people.

      OP did the right things here. Look at what happens when people make the other choice.

      Reply ↓
  22. Regular Poster, Anon for This*

    But…did she actually ask for any time off or other accommodations yet? It’s been a month and she has been asked multiple times by multiple people about the paperwork, but is she actually taking time off for appointments? The writer says that “we need to know when she is going to be in the hospital so we can support her and cover the work she is scheduled for,” but it sounds like that is coming from them, not from her.

    Everyone’s cancer journey is different, but when I was diagnosed, my treatment plan was definitely not settled in a matter of weeks. There was a lot of additional testing, meeting with specialists, second opinions, insurance fights. If I had had a boss and their boss’s boss hounding me for paperwork regarding a still theoretical hospital visit during that time, boy, I would have thought about quitting too.

    I think this writer needs to ask why their approach was “this is what we need–now let me nag you until you send it” instead of “what do you need, and how can the company support you.” Whatever the full story is, this is a human empathy error based on incorrect assumptions about how cancer treatment works.

    Reply ↓
    1. Ellis Bell*

      But from OP’s perspective, these excuses are about performance, not time off. They come after Belle’s performance has tanked and of course they are either going to lead to some time off that is either already determined, or Belle would at least be able to explain that the timeline was still undetermined. From your description saying “Oh I’ll have it later today” is not what a genuine cancer patient would be able to say (I would disagree, because sometimes it really is that urgent, but I think saying one thing that clearly isn’t true and doing another is the really suspect thing). The main issue at hand was not time off, but failing a probation until coming up with a personal reason, then being unable to confirm a reference, and then struggling with her work again shortly after passing probation. I can certainly see someone struggling to work well with a diagnosis, or after having a run of terribly bad luck, but struggling to work, and struggling to communicate the timeline of what she’s being told by doctors as well?

      Reply ↓
      1. Regular Poster, Anon for This*

        Performance issues need to be addressed separately from medical time off. OP has muddled the two by asking about paperwork for time off, rather than what ongoing support Belle needs to perform at the expected level. Having cancer is not carte blanche to perform at a lower level–a good manager who is following the ADA will engage in an interactive process to determine what accommodations are appropriate. That’s not what OP did–they started asking for documentation about time off.

        I agree that Belle should have done her part by communicating a timeline and not just putting it off. But I know how overwhelming a diagnosis like this is, and I can imagine how much more difficult it would be to deal with if you were struggling at work anyway. Being a bad communicator is not the same thing as being a liar.

        It was incredibly hurtful (and occasionally dangerous) when people made assumptions about the validity or severity of my diagnosis based on my physical appearance and overall health. No one should jump to that without real concrete proof. If you are not actually looking at someone’s MRI, it is best to default to not doubting cancer diagnoses.

        Reply ↓
    2. Martin Blackwood*

      From my perspective, OP was asking ‘let me know when youll need time off for appointments and whatnot so we can work out coverage” and then instead of saying “i dont know when my surgery/specialist is scheduled for yet” or “I dont need any time off” Belle implys that she *does* need time off and *knows* when it is, but needs to write out a list/check her personal calendar before giving her boss any dates by saying “I’ll get it to you later today.” And then because she obviously has a lot on her mind, she forgets! And then OP follows up on it so other vacation can be approved without conflict, etc. Theres a different amount of following up for known information that hasnt been communicated vs. a flat “I dont know, its taking longer than expected, Ill keep you on the loop.”

      Reply ↓
      1. OPnemi*

        Yep, it was this one. My priority was ensuring we had the documentation to put the time off under sick leave rather than burning through remaining annual leave, as performance was ok when they were actually working but it was hard to keep track without coming across as micromanaging or stalking. I don’t want to be that kind of bananapants boss, I’ve had more than my fair share and don’t believe in passing that toxicity on.

        Reply ↓
  23. Meep*

    Not condoning this at all, but there is a popular quote going around online: “Whenever you start a new job, you have four living grandparents.” Really only works for retail, of course.

    It ran through my mind.

    With that said, as someone who is 7 months pregnant and still needs to find a pediatrician and am working out unpaid maternity leave with my tiny company… I can kind of get being too tired to do paperwork. I just spent half the night last night burping thanks to heartburn/GERD.

    Reply ↓
    1. Arrietty*

      I started out with seven living grandparents and acquired a few more through marriage during my childhood. Still got three left.

      Reply ↓
      1. Grimalkin*

        Yeah, as someone with a step-grandparent that I was very close to (though sadly all grandparents, step- and otherwise, are deceased now), I was gonna say: four is a MINIMUM number here!

        Reply ↓
      2. Meep*

        I am very, very fortunate all four of my bio grandparents (never divorced) are still around. They are all 82-87 right now.

        Reply ↓
  24. SunnyShine*

    I had a similar situation where a manager had cancer and was suddenly out. He never came back to work. Most thought he was lying. The rumors were pretty terrible. A couple of his friends visited him and we all reached out to him. (He ended up being let go because he played with timecards, fudged numbers, and was a terrible manager.)

    Never assumed that they are lying. People facing cancer are literally facing life and death situations. Sure, she could be lying, but she also could be reevaluating life and decided to spend time with her family instead. Stage 3 cancer is pretty serious.

    Reply ↓
  25. Can’t think of anything clever*

    I actually had an employee be accused of faking cancer after about a year. If she was faking she did a really good job of it. She picked a rare cancer that typically requires a year or more of treatment that can vary in severity. She would miss a few days of work and when supervisors suggested she could take more if needed “I feel well enough to work”. The thing that tripped her up was we hire employees in groups with a classroom training. 2 people we hired in one class approached a supervisor and said they thought she was lying. Both had had family members who had the same cancer. I did employee investigations and prior to my meeting with her put together a significant file that she was likely faking. I set up a meeting with her and her union rep. Usually they would bring the union’s staff attorney or their business agent but she brought a union steward, handed me a resignation effective immediately, and left. One of the things that tripped her up? In her forged sick slips she spelled the doctor’s name wrong. In every slip.

    Reply ↓
  26. H.Regalis*

    What does Burton want to investigate? If Belle was doing anything dodgy/dropping the ball on work items? Whether or not she has cancer? Both?

    For the former, I think, yes, absolutely check to make sure work she was responsible for hasn’t gotten lost or buried, and if she had expense reports or anything, do the same auditing you should be doing for all employees; but if Burton wants to investigate whether Belle really has cancer or not, I’d say just let it go. She’s not your employee anymore. Perhaps Burton is personally curious, but that doesn’t merit a full-scale investigation put on by the employer. What would you even do for that? Stalk her social media? Hire a private eye?

    Reply ↓
  28. CubeFarmer*

    I had a former colleague who, I remain almost completely sure, lied about at least one of her grandparents’ deaths. She wasn’t my report, I didn’t work with her program, and it was none of my business, but it was horrible for her program’s morale. Once she found out that there was basically no institutional tracking or memory regarding PTO and personal time, she took advantage of that.

    Reply ↓
  29. The Rafters*

    OP: The fact that she repeatedly said she would get the paperwork to you, then left when really pushed, is the only reason I would say she is lying, but since she resigned, there’s nothing to be done about it now.

    That said, please be prepared to give a future Belle some grace. It often takes weeks to just to get an appt with the GP, some testing through the GP’s office, then a referral to a specialist, then more testing before they can decide the proper course of treatment. Hopefully during all of this, the doctor’s offices are also wrangling with insurance providers. If not, that’s another several weeks waiting for approval before treatment can begin. Once approved, treatment usually begins w/in days, but the weeks of waiting is extremely unnerving.

    Reply ↓
  30. Becky S*

    Some years ago the non-profit I worked for had an employee, ‘Jane’, who was an OK worker at best. A few months after she started she called one day and said she was having gall bladder surgery and would need 6 weeks off. When she came back, 6 weeks later, and reported to her usual office, she was told she’d need a note from the surgeon and that the surgeon could email it, but it had to arrive before she’d be allowed to work. She threw a hissy fit about that in a very public area, then stormed out. Why was she upset about being asked for what any employer would require after a 6 week medical leave? My guess is she never had surgery. I’m not sure what she got out of that 6 week leave – at that point in her tenure she had maybe a week of sick time.
    A few months later she left a message on my private work voicemail. She started her own company, doing what she did for our non-profit, (she was NO threat to our business) and asked if I’d work for her. I never responded and we never heard from her again.
    I agree it’s good practice to take people at their word about medical issues but sometimes people do lie. It’s reasonable to ask employees to provide documentation and to complete some tasks.

    Reply ↓
  31. BigLawEx*

    I know the OP is not in the US, but a lot of Brits and EU folks I know have private health insurance that’s fully paid by their employer. I have zero idea what happens to that insurance when employees resign, but perhaps you can check in that she has that transition handled, assuming the best. I can only imagine death and a diagnosis is A LOT. And even if it’s just death/grief.

    I will also say that there are some doctors, IME, who jump straight to cancer without confirmation. I’ve had personal experience of a doctor trying to schedule surgery without a biopsy that turned out to be scar tissue. Something similar happened to a friend who *had* the surgery, then the biopsy came back clean.

    She could be mortified (unnecessarily) about something like this happening and jumped the gun when everyone else was throwing up an alarm.

    There are so many reasons. Honestly, though, I’d check in like Alison suggests and not investigate/leap to any conclusions. Also, maybe have a talk with your boss that this is perhaps for the best and look to fill the new position before you end up doing two jobs’ worth of work.

    Reply ↓
    1. Arrietty*

      I’m in the UK and I’m only aware of one person with private health insurance through work, and it isn’t comprehensive. I’m sure there are employers who offer this but it’s far from universal!

      Reply ↓
    2. Irish Teacher.*

      Hmm, I have no idea how that would work in Ireland. We usually pay for our own health insurance, but there are some companies, especially the large American multinationals, that cover it for their employees. Actually, googling says there are a fair number of companies here that offer it.

      I’d imagine you could get on to the provider and get them to change it to a policy you paid for, but not sure. As a new customer, there is a length of time before they start paying for stuff, so people don’t wait until they get a serious diagnosis and then purchase insurance, so not sure how it would all work.

      Now, once a person is unemployed, they’d likely qualify for a medical card anyway and with a cancer diagnosis, the odds are higher, but…the public system’s waiting lists can be long and you don’t necessarily want to change systems mid-treatment.

      Reply ↓
      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I googled and couldn’t find official information but there was a reddit discussion that said the company contacts the health insurers to say you are no longer under their cover and the insurers then contact you and ask if you want to take over paying the premiums. You could also change plans and would remain covered immediately if you were transferring to a cheaper plan. It’s when you transfer to a better one that additional benefits don’t kick in immediately.

        That is just an online comment but it sounds like a likely sequence of events.

        Reply ↓
  32. Glimmer*

    I was sympathetic to Belle up to the point where she never delivered any documentation of her illness or treatment.

    I had Stage 1 cancer and was able to work through treatments. I only needed minor accommodations, like continuing to work from home and maybe taking a nap mid-morning. I had enough PTO and sick time to cover all doctors’ appointments (and those midday naps).

    The medication made me bloated. And the only way to keep from feeling nauseated was to keep something in my stomach 24/7. I munched on saltines all day and took sips from a protein shake throughout the night. I ended up putting on about 15 extra lbs.

    Turns out, people in my department thought I was lying about cancer because I didn’t look like what they imagined cancer treatment would look like. (PSA: There are tons of types of cancers and multiple treatment modes for each one, and people react differently to the different treatments).

    I ended up quitting after my treatment was complete (and successful!) because we were being ordered back to the office four days a week, no exceptions, including medical, and I wasn’t yet physically up to that. So I found a permanently remote position with another company.

    But I could have produced documentation at the drop of a hat, if asked.

    Reply ↓
    1. DJ*

      Sorry to hear of the blanket RTO order without allowing for medical accommodations. But glad you got a fully remote job!

      Reply ↓
  33. Garth*

    If something similar arises again, say “I/HR needs this from you NOW. Go to my office, shut the door, use my phone, and forget about everything else. Do it NOW.”

    Reply ↓
  34. AXG*

    I had an employee like this: Could never tell if she just had the worst luck on the planet or if she was making it all up. Turned out to be a combination of both: Had some bad things happen, lied and exaggerated about them, and never was a great employee. We had to fire her in the end.

    Looking back, would I have done anything differently? I gave her a lot of leeway because I didn’t want to kick anyone when they were down and I wanted to be as supportive as possible, to give her the chance to rally. I still stand by that choice, but I also would have been better about asking for documentation as more things started popping up.

    I think because she’s quitting, it’s a good opportunity to look at your procedures for documenting any sort of medical or extended leave, not to make it more difficult for an employee but to make it easier for everyone with clear expectations. That’s what I would investigate, not your actions. I think you can stand by the “We don’t want to ask for extensive medical information but what we need for accommodations” line. I’d rather err on the side of accommodating even if they’re lying than badgering someone truly ill for items in the middle of a medical crisis.

    Reply ↓
  36. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    I’m wondering why they needed to know in advance dates and things? Like maybe she was struggling with the doctors appointments, or she wanted to go a different route or something? Maybe there weren’t appointments that were problems for work?

    Reply ↓
  37. tabloidtained*

    Maybe she’s been planning to resign for a while and didn’t want to reveal that until she had her ducks in a row, and didn’t want to apply for accommodations because she knew she’d be quitting.

    On the other hand, I just read that article about the Grey’s Anatomy writer and her barrel of lies…

    Reply ↓
  38. anon for this*

    Once, in a single year:
    -my mom’s cancer, which had been well controlled, spread to her brain and it was Very Bad
    -my uncle fell off the Grand Canyon and died and I had to go get his remains and belongings
    -I had a major injury that required surgery and had to be out of 2 months.

    I did not operate at my peak that year. I left my job early the following year. I don’t think my boss from that job would ever give me a good reference.

    Sometimes life is just a pile on and it affects your work. Maybe she’s faking it, but also maybe she’s not, and I am a big fan of erring on the side of compassion.

    Reply ↓
    1. Worstyearsever*

      I agree completely! Since I started my current job about 6 years ago, I have had the worst string of bad luck imaginable – combined with other stressful life events. These are the highlights:

      – Diagnosed with cancer, surgical treatment
      – Dad died after long battle with cancer
      – Mom died after a month in the hospital with Covid
      – Diagnosed with autoimmune disease
      – Sibling had amputation
      – Sibling hospitalized with sepsis
      – Dog diagnosed with lymphoma
      – Sibling had stroke
      – Spouse’s grandmother died

      You literally can’t make this up. No one at my work has ever asked for any documentation of any of these things. They have been nothing but understanding and compassionate (and secretly thankful they are not me).

      Reply ↓
  39. DJ*

    It’s not unreasonable to ask for something in writing concerning possible days off. The oncologist or staff could write a letter advising expected to have chemo X day every X and anticipated radiation schedule which can act as a medical certificate to cover the entire period. Of course season sessions can be delayed due to various factors.
    I was part time when I underwent cancer treatment so my manager and I were able to discuss the schedule and plan for it. No formal documentation needed except a medical certificate for time off for surgery! Because of the letter head of where I had surgery and follow up medical certificates it was obvious it was a cancer centre.

    Reply ↓
  40. K*

    In wondering whether the name Belle was chosen as a reference to the Australian “wellness” influencer Belle Gibson who faked having brain cancer and built a whole business of cookbooks and lifestyle products on having “beaten” her cancer with diet?

    Reply ↓
  41. Boof*

    Sorry OP, it sucks, and you may never know whether it sucked because it was real, or because it was fake.
    That being said, while I don’t think there’s much to be gained on trying to figure out The Truth about Belle’s non-work affairs, they were struggling enough that it sounds like a careful review of their work and accounts they had access to is in order. That’s about the only thing here – it’s all well and good to give grace when needed but when things are off, it’s best to make sure there’s nothing else awry and probably should be standard business practice anyway.

    Reply ↓
  42. I Have RBF*

    So, here’s the problem with the employer’s approach to this: The medics never give you a full schedule of treatments!

    How do I know? My wife has cancer (inoperable). When she was going through chemo, they just said, verbally that her chemo infusions needed to be scheduled every two weeks. They did not actually schedule any but the first one. They didn’t provide a paper saying “This is your treatment plan”. Sloppy? Yes, but they are usually too damn busy to provide anything but boilerplate documentation of side effects. It took both her and me to keep track of all the stuff, not just chemo. They didn’t do it. It took them over two months to even get a specific diagnosis and propose a treatment plan.

    So your employee may have tried to get a schedule of appointments in writing, and been completely and totally frustrated and blow off. When you wouldn’t stop pestering her, she may have quit in frustration.

    In the US, even medical treatment for cancer is done assembly line style, with all the burden for scheduling and keeping track of things falling on the patient. Your main oncologist follows up maybe once a month.

    Reply ↓
  43. TheBunny*

    I could retire comfortably if I had a dollar for every employee I’ve had to chase down for paperwork.

    She might be lying, she might not be…but this story sounded like 50% of the medical note conversations I’ve had. People either send way too much info or nothing. There never seems to be an in-between.

    Reply ↓

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