update: my employee keeps coming to work sick

by Alison Green on December 10, 2024

It’s “where are you now?” month at Ask a Manager, and all December I’m running updates from people who had their letters here answered in the past.

There will be more posts than usual this week, so keep checking back throughout the day.

Remember the letter-writer whose employee kept coming to work sick? Here’s the update.

I wrote to you back in May requesting help in managing a staff member who insisted on coming to work when he was ill – both when he was contagious and jeopardizing others, and when he was too ill to function in the workplace in a safe and healthy way. I was really wrestling with balancing the need for this employee’s right to medical privacy, their right to work, and the rights of both my staff and members of the public to not be jeopardized by his possible contagion. I really appreciated your reply and I read through all the comments – you have no idea how validating it was to hear from everyone supporting both the need and my responsibility to take action to protect my staff and members of the public. The staff member went on another vacation right when my original letter was published, which gave me a lot of time to think and plan, and by the time he was back from his vacation I felt fully prepared to tackle this issue.

First off: I called our HR assistant director to ask for guidance. She was remarkably helpful, and she said that while the phrasing in the employee instructions was “should stay home” if you’re sick, “should” can mean “must”, and that I could move forward with implementing that phrasing immediately. Then, I drafted signage to post in multiple locations in the staff work area/bathroom/break room, and I spoke with every employee personally about it to ensure they saw the signs and understood. Finally – and most importantly – I met privately with this staff member when he returned from vacation to explain these new guidelines and expectations, and to convey in no uncertain terms that any attempts to come to work when impacted by illness would be met with documented action. I stressed to him the need to protect and safeguard our colleagues – which appealed to his good nature, as he’s truly a nice person – and I also was very forceful in expressing to him that no staff member will engage in discussions about whether or not he should be at work, nor would any staff member be able to drive him home due to illness in the future. He accepted it all without argument, and we ended the discussion on good terms. I’m very, very glad to report that I have had no issues with this staff member about this since that meeting.

In case anyone would find it helpful, the verbiage I used on the staff-area signage is below. Thank you, Alison, and thank you to everyone who commented for your amazing help with this!

Guidelines for staff illness/symptoms

While the CDC has dialed back the restrictions regarding Covid, please read and understand the following based on guidance from **locality’s** Human Resources:

If you are symptomatic of any contagious illness, you must stay home until symptoms completely subside. Symptoms include, but are not limited to:

  • Coughing (if you believe your coughing is “just allergies”, wear a face mask)
  • Sneezing/congestion
  • Sore throat
  • Fever – Temperature of 100* or more — must go home and stay home until below 99* without fever-reducing medication for at least 24 hours
  • Muscle/body aches
  • Chills / body sweats
  • Upset stomach (diarrhea/vomiting)

Returning to work after an illness:

You may return to work only after your symptoms have fully subsided; guidance suggests “getting better,” but HR clarified that you must be well to return to work, not just feeling less bad.
Masking: With any respiratory illness (including but not limited to Covid-19) the CDC suggests masking for 5 days after symptoms have fully cleared. If you have tested positive for Covid, you MUST wear a mask for at least 5 days after you have returned to wellness and can return to work; this is to prevent contagion from possible rebound infections.

Prevention:

  • If you have been exposed to someone with a contagious illness (Covid, flu, etc.) please wear a mask to prevent the spread.
  • Continue to use Clorox wipes to clean the circulation desk (keyboards, phones, etc.) and other high-traffic areas.
  • Continue to practice good hand-washing techniques.
  • Masking: masks are freely available to library staff. You have the City’s full support in deciding to wear a mask (for example, if you’re working the circ desk, if you’re helping someone on the computers, if you’re working one-on-one with a patron, etc.).
  • Please err on the side of caution and do your part to maintain a healthy work environment by masking or staying home when you’re sick. Your actions to help keep our library patrons and library staff healthy is vital.

Please understand that it is your responsibility to recognize and manage your symptoms; do not come to work if you are symptomatic. If you are at work and develop symptoms during the workday, speak with your supervisor and leave work until your symptoms have fully subsided. If you have been exposed to anyone who’s been sick, wear a mask for 3+ days to make sure you don’t spread germs. If you are concerned about missing time, please talk with **supervisors** about make-up hours or to find out if WFH is an option.

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{ 147 comments }

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  2. Dawn*

    I really appreciate you did this, at the same time, as a middle-aged woman, I feel like half of these symptoms would prevent me from coming into work ever, lol.

    Aches and pains, chills and sweats are the story of my life nowadays.

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    1. Nonsense*

      I mean, you presumably know the difference between age-related aches, the achiness that comes from a bad cold, and the achiness that comes from overuse of a joint. Getting into the weeds on the specifics of things like this is how we end up with rules lawyers and Seinfeld characters, who nobody actually likes in real life.

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        1. Nonsense*

          Oh good, I didn’t think anyone would catch that!

          I just had to explain to an intern this morning that telling me you’re calling off work because he had a bad edible is far more information than I need to know and it’s not going to do his reputation any favors either, so it was on my mind.

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      3. With A Y*

        I have an auto-immune disease, and so it can be difficult to tell. I can have a fever, cough, and have joint aches and pains. This could mean the flu or just my disease activity flaring up. I really don’t know. The most common symptoms of my disease and many auto immune diseases look like URIs/flu. I regularly have body temps over 99 without having any kind of contagious disease. So, yes, for some people, it can be difficult. I am also vulnerable to contracting contagious diseases because of my meds. There really is no winning with this kind of stuff. I do my best to try and discern, but I know I have probably worked when I was contagious and stayed home when I wasn’t. Just wanted to give a different lens to the subject. By the way, about 1 in 6 people have auto-immune diseases, and since they are mostly “invisible illnesses” I like to advocate about it.

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        1. Dahlia*

          Then you would be one of the people talking to your manager, as directed in these instructions, not just expecting everyone else to know.

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        2. MM*

          I too have autoimmune disease, and I did at one point go about a week feeling off and trying to figure out why before it finally dawned on me that I have a fever. I know what you mean about the difficulty, but I think that’s not only covered by the “discuss with boss” part of the policy but also something that this policy would make me feel much more able TO discuss with boss because the whole issue is out in the open and being prioritized. I would be *incredibly grateful* to work somewhere with policies like this. Both of my chronic conditions are the result of COVID infections (one lifelong illness per infection – whee!). And, like you, one of the medications I take as a result is mildly immunosuppressant.

          I would much rather have to put some thought toward parsing out my symptoms, which I do a lot of the time anyway, in exchange for this kind of consideration and protection regarding contagion. It would be incredible to have a workplace where it’s just expected for someone to be wearing a mask. It would be a major relief psychically not to feel like I’m the only person around who gives a damn about getting infected.

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    2. Over Analyst*

      Yeah, I’m not quite middle aged, but taking these words as they’re written I think I would’ve been out of work since September. The allergies have been bad this year and have twice for me led to a lingering cough.

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      1. not like a regular teacher*

        The guidelines specifically say that if you are confident that your symptoms are allergy-related you can come to work but must wear a mask.

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        1. Spreadsheet Queen*

          And that is fine for a few days of being pretty sure it’s allergies to get you to yeah definitely allergies or no definitely not allergies, but it’s a lot to ask of someone for an entire season. (Or longer. There are more allergies than just those related to pollen, and many of those are year ’round. And a lot of people with acid reflux cough frequently).

          It’s also a lot to ask of someone suffering 6 weeks of post-viral cough. The virus is long gone and it’s enough trying not to p*ss oneself.

          I’m pretty careful about my germs, but (pandemic aside) I’m not willing to wear a mask every day for months out of the year just because I cough and sneeze more frequently than the general public. That’s too much. If I know I’m sick, I request to WFH. I’ll wear a mask to the pharmacy or grocery store to pick up what I need if I’m sick. If I’m not sure, I minimize my interactions/close quarters with others and use hand sanitizer. If a mask was required for that 2 days I’d do it. (Not counting that every Monday after Sunday lawn mowing is an allergy day. Again, this gets ridiculous.)

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          1. Dawn*

            I quit smoking a few years ago (and vaping… last year, I think?) and I still have a pretty nasty cough sometimes. It would definitely be onerous when I know I’m not sick, I just cough sometimes because I damaged my lungs over the course of 20 years.

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          2. desdemona*

            Can I ask why not?

            I’m a freelancer. I still mask regularly at work, because I know if I pick something up I am a risk of being a super-spreader/Typhoid Mary between my different clients.

            I’m also someone whose allergies masked COVID, the first time I got it – I only knew I was contagious/had COVID because I was testing once a week.

            For long days, I have masks that loop around my head instead of to my ears.

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            1. Nesta*

              I agree with this. I mask every day at work and on my commute in an n95 respirator mask because I cannot afford to get sick, especially with COVID, over and over again.

              I know people don’t like masks because they aren’t used to it/don’t like to be inconvenience, but it isn’t an impossible ask to wear one if you are routinely coughing and sneezing. Even a light weight surgical would help in keeping germs out of the air!

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            2. oh my god the ads*

              because masks truly can be that uncomfortable especially after long periods of wear, it is EXHAUSTING to not have people understand you because your speech is muffled by the mask (no matter how thin or lightweight it is), the dry mouth just gets to be a lot day in and day out, etc. Because sensory issues are a *thing* FFS.
              It is not March or April or even June 2020 anymore. You’ve decided that long term masking works for you. Not everyone is a super-spreader, not everyone can deal with long-term masking of the type that you’re describing.

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              1. Dawn*

                I was *the most* COVID cautious person during the core years of the pandemic. I masked in public straight up until 2024.

                But I barely went out. I never saw my friends, I rarely saw family, I spent as little time in shops etc as possible. I would wear a mask but wow is it exhausting to wear one for an extended period of time, especially when you’ve got lung damage (which is, admittedly, my own fault.)

                I honestly don’t think I could work a job where I had to wear a mask for a full shift. And again, I say this as a medically-vulnerable, COVID-conscious individual who is thankful for every single person who did wear a mask to protect me. I get it, 100%. But I personally would be overwhelmed by it.

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                1. oh my god the ads*

                  That’s how I feel, Dawn. When we were knee deep in the trenches of like April 2020 to early 2021, I masked up. Even into like spring 2022 and beyond, , even in a state that had relaxed their mask mandates early on, I kept masking. I’ve gotten every single Covid shot and booster (plus flu, and even pneumonia).

                  And yet I still got at least twice (that I know of), and it left my lungs messed up. And the thought of going back to that kind of “all mask all the time” daily life (when I wasn’t even a healthcare worker) is giving me hives. For all the reasons you described, for all the reasons I described earlier, plus it reminded me of the social isolation from that time period too, and how my mental health plummeted.

              2. Caramel & Cheddar*

                “It’s not 2020” is true, but I’d invite you to look up the recent COVID numbers for the US, both infections and deaths, and compare them to what they were in 2020. I don’t think they’ll persuade you to mask since you’ve stated you’d prefer not to, but I hope they’ll persuade you to stop saying “It’s not 2020” as if the time of mass infection/death is in the distant past. If you don’t want to wear a mask, that’s absolutely your prerogative but you should own that decision rather than relying on outdated information.

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                1. SG*

                  Not sure what you mean! Covid is endemic but death rates are way down and the strength of current strains is way way weaker than they were in early 2020. If you want to still mask of course you should. But covid is factually way less of a problem than it used to be

                2. Lucifer*

                  If people want to keep masking, that’s great. Whole countries were doing it before COVID during every flu and cold season, and honestly I think it would have been great for some western societies (coughUSAcough) to have adopted that habit more in a post-COVID-behind-endemic world.
                  But *it is not March 2020 anymore*. COVID became endemic, like the flu. Compared to other scenarios, that is a damn good outcome.

          3. I Have RBF*

            On the subject of allergies: I have a lot. Spring, summer, fall and winter – grass, flower pollen, tree pollen, dust, ash – I have them year round.

            They took my best medication down to “go beg the pharmacist for it and only get a ten days supply” years ago (and I’m still salty about it – it didn’t even do anything to curtail meth.) So now I just have to suffer, because I don’t have time to go stand in line at the f’ing pharmacy, during the workday, every ten days.

            One thing, though, that I have found to be effective to reduce my symptoms when outside: An N95 mask. Turns out that pollen is particulate, which is exactly what those masks are designed to filter out. So not only do they keep your cough germs off of others, but they keep you from breathing in pollen and dust!

            I use filters indoors, so my symptoms are less at home. But out of the house? Wearing a mask has made my life much easier on the allergy front. Sure, it looks dorky, but being able to breathe without coughing and sneezing is really very nice.

            Reply ↓
              1. Seeking Second Childhood*

                BTW And the masks I get such pollen/mold protection from are simple double-layer cotton, washed and reused. Just never put in the dryer.

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          4. Katara's side braids*

            Yeah, masks can be expensive! If there is a mask bloc in your area, they may be able to assist. I order mine in bulk, which makes it a bit less expensive, but it is definitely still not accessible to everyone.

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          5. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

            My brother is allergic to… life, basically. Even with aggressive treatment, which he has, and both regular and emergency medication, which he also has, he functionally can’t breathe through his nose, period. (This also means that he has a vastly diminished sense of taste, which is probably why he *loves* very spicy and sour dishes.) Since several of those allergies are not seasonal, this is permanent. To add to the fun, he also has asthma.

            I would hope that a reasonable workplace could have a conversation about how his 24/7/365 congestion is meaningless in terms of judging contagion. Because having to act like he was permanently a plague victim would be quite unpleasant.

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          6. WillowSunstar*

            But then what if you are allergic during certain seasons of the year (fall, spring)? And what if your coworker who sits next to you has a dog/cat and you are allergic to dander? Or they wear perfume and you are strongly allergic to perfume? I think asking people to wear a mask all the time is a bit going overboard, especially for those of us who wear glasses and they get fogged up every few minutes. If you’re doing computer work and need to see, then you’re rubbing your glasses constantly because they fog up, and that is going to take away from doing anything productive.

            Maybe providing weekly proof of a negative COVID test would be enough? Or proof of a yearly COVID vaccination?

            I don’t work in an office currently, but if I ever had more symptoms than congestion or sniffling/sneezing, I would take a COVID test to determine if it was ok for me to go in to work. And I do get my vaccination every year.

            Reply ↓
            1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

              Also, headache and bodily aches are both symptoms of covid and flu. They were the only symptoms I had, in fact. Is Bob with the chronic pain issues or Sarah with the frequent headaches going to be asked to do this? Realistically, if this is about contagion, they should.

              But if we can go “Bob always has aches and pains, so it’s not a useful barometer,” then I don’t see why we can’t for congestion.

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            2. Nancy*

              That poster is referring to a post-viral cough, which is something that can occur with any of the many respiratory viruses that exist. The ‘post-viral’ part means the virus is gone from their body.

              Reply ↓
        1. Over Analyst*

          They specifically address coughing, which would help for about ten of those days I’ve been “sick” but it sounds like the sneezing and congestion I’ve had for much longer, while being otherwise symptom free, would still have kept me home for several months.

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          1. Normal Rachel*

            Surely you would not have been, as you know that you have allergies and are not otherwise sick. The workplace isn’t proposing someone go around and check everyone for potential cold symptoms — OP has offered guidelines to provide some definition to what “stay home if you’re sick” means, but naturally people can use their own judgment as to whether or not that’s them. It sounds like people at this workplace were able to discern how to interpret it, so I don’t know that the nitpicking is warranted or constructive.

            Sorry about the allergies though — this year was particularly nasty!

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      3. Dahlia*

        This is a baffling thread to read as someone who’s autistic and has been accused of being too literal.

        Can we not figure out what these guidelines mean without rules lawyering them to death???

        Reply ↓
        2. amoeba*

          Yeah – I was also like “well, OK, if I took every point 100% literally, that would be a lot” (I personally would not like to wear a mask to work for five days every time my partner has a mild cold while I feel completely fine!) – but it’s also pretty easy to understand the intention behind them and act accordingly.

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    3. Normal Rachel*

      But surely you know the difference between the aches and pains you normally have vs. how you feel when you’re sick. Aches and pains are often symptoms for flu-like illnesses, and they are also part of daily life for millions of people. If you have chronic pain you know what your baseline is — I think that’s assumed in guidance like this, but adding “use your discretion” weakens the message for people who aren’t adhering to common sense safety protocols

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    4. Classically Ambigous English Prepositional Phrase*

      Yeah, I’ve had the chills since I got covid in 2021- it is no longer diagnostic.

      Reply ↓
    5. commensally*

      Yeah, I strongly support not coming to work when infected or infectious, but I really hate all of those lists of symptoms that mean you’re “sick”. All of those except high fever are just any given morning for me (except that last one, which is “oh it’s that time of month”.)

      Yes, there’s often a clear line between normal level crud and the actual symptom they’re trying to decribe – there’s a difference between normal winter dry-air sniffles and scratchy throat, and “every orifice in my face is completely clogged up and I want to scream when I try to swallow”; “body aches” isn’t actually meant to mean “I overdid it on the treadmill yesterday” – but if the point is that you want people to use their discretion, then that’s what you need to say, not give a list of common symptoms that you mandate sick leave for.

      Honestly, I sometimes feel like what you actually need is a medical professional to come in and do a training to actually help people learn to evaluate when they might be contagious in a nuanced way, because I do often feel like a lot of my coworkers don’t know – I took a long time to learn tbh.

      (And the #1 thing that tells me “oh you’re actually *sick* sick, not just normal-level cruddy” now that I’m too old to spike a fever quickly is severe fatigue, but somehow none of these lists ever require you to stay home because you’re exhausted.)

      Reply ↓
      1. Dawn*

        Wouldn’t that be nice? I’ve had a manager or two who would accept “exhausted” and that consideration was lovely because it happens sometimes.

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      2. JustaTech*

        When I was in grad school for public health we one day had a discussion about the acceptability of self-testing for strep (this was long before COVID testing) and there were a number of clinicians (doctors and nurses) who were impassioned and adamant on how patients and their families just can’t be the ones in charge of care or figuring out if someone is really sick.

        I asked the doctor sitting next to me why he wasn’t on his feet arguing with the rest and he said “the patients and their families are the ones who make the choice to come in in the first place.”
        (He was also an ER doc from Humbolt county, so was a fascinating balance of old hippie and ER doc adrenaline junkie.)

        All of which is to say: for the most part people really do understand the difference between contagious things and non-contagious things, (and also that their difference from baseline may be different from other people’s baseline).
        But also that work ethic/ need to get paid/ desire to do a thing can warp that understanding.

        Reply ↓
    6. Dawn*

      Geez, people, I can’t even make a tongue-in-cheek comment about the depressing reality of middle age without some of y’all coming down like a ton of bricks? Good heavens.

      Reply ↓
    7. Jenesis*

      For me, it’s less the respiratory symptoms and more the upset stomach/diarrhea symptoms. I have a distressingly inconsistent form of lactose intolerance that makes it hard to judge whether any given episode is because I ate the wrong food and I should never eat it again, I ate otherwise okay food(s) too much/too frequently, or if I’m actually suffering a bout of food poisoning. The only way to ensure that any given episode isn’t “just” my own body throwing a hissy fit is if I cut all dairy products out of my diet entirely, which I am not willing to do.

      Obviously I practice good hygiene and I shut the lid as soon as I’m done using the toilet, but that’s rarely an option in public places.

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    8. boof*

      I think you’re being tongue in cheek, but I still want to point out for people who maybe really are wondering – the “if you believe your coughing is “just allergies”, wear a face mask” covers all scenarios where someone feels something but isn’t sure if it’s contagious – just wear a mask.
      I have a lot of allergies and have small kids too and almost never get really sick no matter how many URIs rip through our house (covid for me was mild congestion) and before we started masking all the time (I still do, i work with cancer patients, our disposable masks are quite comfortable) I would just throw on a mask any time I had some sniffles

      Reply ↓
  3. vulturestalker*

    I’m curious where sick leave comes into play in all of this. I think these policies sound super reasonable, but I was surprised that even in the original letter there was not much discussion of leave–it sounded like this person has plenty of leave remaining, but these new guidelines are stringent enough to have someone missing potentially weeks of work for lingering coughs from, say, two colds per year.

    To be clear, I am very pro masking and keeping other people safe, and if these guidelines come with generous enough leave to allow the employees to abide by them without losing out on too much pay, then I think this is a wonderful outcome. And I’m really glad the conversation went well with the employee! I just worry about what would happen if this has them caught between a rock and a hard place.

    Reply ↓
    1. ASGirl*

      In 2021 I was recovering from Pneumonia and I had a lingering cough for over a month as my lungs were working out all the mucus.

      Currently I am recovering from a head cold, no fever, occasionally coughing, sneezing and congestion. It takes a week for these to clear up. my work doesn’t give us much PTO and we can’t work from home, so I am at work powering through in my open office.

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      1. Powerpants*

        So true. Coughs can linger on and on and the average cold is 10 days long. I think it is unreasonable to expect people to be out for 10 days every time they have a cold but wearing a mask is great if in a group. Our policy states that people should be fever-free for 24 hours and have SIGNIFICANT improvement in their symptoms, which will often take 2 or 3 days (something we also state).

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        1. AF Vet*

          Fever/GI issue free for 24 hours, vastly improved symptoms, and for stuff like a cough, cleared by the doc as not contagious. Coughs suck – they can play for weeks in individuals who are otherwise perfectly healthy. If the cough is the only issue, mask up and get your butt to school / work.

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          1. MigraineMonth*

            I agree that saying that people can’t come to work for the 7-10 days they’re coughing every time they get a cold wouldn’t be feasible in most workplaces. However, having people get a doctor’s note that they aren’t contagious wouldn’t help with that. You’re most contagious in the first few days (including before symptoms start), but you’re still contagious as long as you’re coughing.

            I think asking people to stay home the first couple of days, then mask and take extra care with handwashing as long as the cough lasts, is probably the best we can do without either unlimited sick time or the ability to WFH.

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    2. Bunch Harmon*

      Any time I get a cold, I get a lingering cough. I generally go to the doctor (because she always wants to check for pneumonia) and get a note that says I am not contagious and can return despite coughing. I imagine this would be a reasonable exception to the policy.

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        2. Accounting Gal*

          Yeah I agree 100%. It’s an imposition, added stress on the health system when you know there is nothing they can do for you, and it costs money.

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        3. DrSalty*

          Agree, it’s a huge waste of time and resources for most people. The average healthy adult does not need to be evaluated by a healthcare professional for a simple cold.

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          1. Lynn*

            For my former employer the manager I reported to wanted a doctors when I had a cold

            So, I called the clinic where my doctor was working at and spoke to a nurse.

            The nurse told me the following

            the clinic does not see patients who have a cold unless they have a high grade fever that will not go down
            To take aspirin and to monitor my symptoms regarding the fever *I had a low grade fever, and the aspirin got rid of the fever*
            To get plenty of rest
            To drink fluids

            I had to e-mail that manager and tell him what the clinic told me

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          2. ScruffyInternHerder*

            This is true – at the same time I will say that I get pneumonia and/or bronchitis enough myself that as soon as I start noting “this isn’t just a cold” I get my butt into the doctor. I’m usually a pretty darn healthy adult, but I’m usually correct in my suspicion that it isn’t just a cold. And that’s what I took from Bunch Harmon’s note too, that its a quirk of their body to manage pneumonia more frequently that expected, and thus they see a doctor.

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    3. Just Another Zebra*

      I had a very similar thought. I have a school-aged child who, especially this time of year, always has *something*. And, naturally, I end up catching it. Coughing / sneezing / sore throat / congestion… if I had to stay home from the first sniffle until I was at 100% health, I’d never be at work. I just got over a cold that lasted FOREVER – almost three weeks. I have nowhere near that much sick time.

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      1. Accounting Gal*

        I said something similar! I have one young child and with these guidelines I just literally would not be able to work. I’d be there like 3 weeks a year haha

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      2. Purina*

        The LW works in a library, right? So they’re all constantly exposed to god only knows what from the general public, especially at this time of year, much like anyone with kids or who works with kids. So that is the thing that sticks out at me about these guidelines—they just seem kind of unrealistic given the actual jobs and work environment.

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    4. Accounting Gal*

      I can appreciate where the LW was coming from but I have never in my life worked somewhere that provided enough sick time that these guidelines would be realistic. Do they have unlimited PTO? I get 2-4 colds a year (young child at home) and the coughing for those regularly lasts 2+ weeks. Not to mention the times I need sick time for the kid’s illnesses even when I’m not sick. Throw in 1-2x/year stomach bugs and one day for headaches/miscellaneous… that is like 8 weeks of PTO needed for sick time alone. I’m really happy for their employees if they are truly are generous enough to allow for that but it seems unrealistic for 99% of US employers.

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        1. Silver Robin*

          Presumably LW is a real person with a real employee and a real workplace where this approach has had success. So it does, in fact, work in “real life”.

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          1. MigraineMonth*

            I expect the guidelines around coming to work with a contagious cough will have to be relaxed in the future unless they can WFH for several weeks at a time (especially if they have any parents of young children on their staff). A cough from a cold can be contagious for two weeks, which is a lot of sick time to need if you get several colds a year.

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      3. AcademiaNut*

        It’s only really realistic in a job where you can work from home at will. If you can work from home for 3 weeks any time you have a cold, or in March when the pollen is bad, and it doesn’t impact your performance or reviews, then it could work.

        It could also work if you have a place with genuinely unlimited paid sick leave, where you could take leave for 3+ months a year, get paid a full salary, and not have it impact your work load in the office, performance reviews or promotion prospects.

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    5. MigraineMonth*

      That’s a consideration most of the time, but I don’t think it is a significant concern here. In the original letter, the employee had so much unused PTO that he was selling it back (or letting it expire when that wasn’t an option). At least in my state, the PTO for government workers is better than most of the private sector, which might be a factor. Finally, the OP said they were willing to work with the employee if they were running out of sick time and offered WFH as an option on days they were contagious but not too sick to work.

      Reply ↓
    6. RIP Pillowfort*

      In his case the leave isn’t the issue. But for most people it will be.

      Most of us with generous leave still couldn’t afford to take off until all the symptoms abated. Especially if you get sick multiple times a year. I mean I’d be out of work for weeks waiting for a regular cough to resolve post-cold/respiratory illness.

      There should always be more nuance than this. Leave generous enough so you can have symptoms 90% resolved but still taking precautionary measures like masking. But this is what should happen- unfortunately not what is happening.

      Reply ↓
      1. Myrin*

        I’d assume OP isn’t an unapproachable ogre who can’t be reasoned with, though. It’s always easier to have strict official guidelines with individual people being able to present their case regarding more leniency than to have more nuanced but necessarily less cut-and-dry official guidelines to begin with because that just leads to people going “oh my symptoms are totally 90% resolved” when actually they’re at about 30% capacity but (wilfully or not) overestimating themselves.

        Reply ↓
  4. iglwif*

    As a library patron, I am so grateful to you and your HR for taking infection control seriously and taking steps to protect everyone.

    Reply ↓
    1. Katara's side braids*

      Yup. I worked at a library for 3 years, and a couple of our regulars would take out huge stacks of books for ill family members with not much else to do. Another would check out many books at a time to read during dialysis. I won’t pretend library books aren’t absolutely laden with germs, but I still wonder how the last 2 years have been for them since so few people mask now.

      Reply ↓
  5. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    i am glad that you put the the mask thing there. I myself have a cough that will not go away. It is not a virus or anything catchy. Its just issues with asthma.

    Reply ↓
    1. Synaptically Unique*

      I am also asthmatic and prone to extended coughing fits for as long as several months after respiratory infections. I have tried so many things over the years with no real resolution besides time. What I discovered in the last couple of years is that if I take cetrizine every single day as a prophylactic, I don’t get into that cycle of inflammation/irritation/aggravation that keeps it all going. It doesn’t help if I take it after I’m already sick (which is why I never thought it did anything useful). Not sure if this would be helpful to anyone else, but I wish I’d gotten this advice a couple of decades earlier.

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  6. Meep*

    As someone who just had to deal with her utter a** of a brother-in-law creating a super-spreader event because he couldn’t rub two braincells together to know not to come to a 50+ event where immunocompromised people were, I am happy for this update and his understanding!

    Reply ↓
  7. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

    Thank you for including “if you believe your coughing is ‘just allergies’, wear a face mask.” I always mask indoors, because I have a chronic, non-contagious cough from bronchiectasis. Having something like that or hay fever doesn’t protect a person from respiratory illness. It just means we might not notice a different or worsening cough as a symptom.

    Reply ↓
    2. Annony*

      My workplace has a policy that if your only symptom is a cough, you come to work but stay masked. I think it is reasonable. When I had covid it too almost 6 months for the cough to go away. It wasn’t allergies, but I also was not contagious.

      Reply ↓
    4. Ally McBeal*

      I have sinus issues (one ENT thinks it’s severe enough for surgery, one ENT doesn’t, I need to get a third opinion) and make sure to tell everyone who sits near me at work that my sniffling and nose-blowing has nothing to do with contagious illness. I’m known to be part of the crowd that only comes in on the mandatory in-office days and am quick to WFH if the weather’s nasty or I’m under the weather, so I think my guidance rings true with my coworkers.

      Reply ↓
  8. MigraineMonth*

    I love that this all worked out so well! It’s a reminder that while it’s good to be aware of complicating factors (the controlling spouse, the fiercely protected PTO, the employee’s feelings), they shouldn’t stop you from implementing a common-sense solution. When you stop trying to manage someone else’s emotions for them, they often surprise you by managing them all on their own.

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  9. cough cough*

    I had covid over Thanksgiving, and by these rules, I’d be out of the office until Christmas, I expect. I’m testing negative but still coughing, and by the end of the day, I’m exhausted. This current strain takes six weeks to really bounce back from. That’s impossible for most of us. I certainly don’t have six weeks’ worth of paid leave, and I can’t take that much time off unpaid.

    Reply ↓
    1. Ccbac*

      I’ve had covid twice (I think, no positive test, but my partner tested positive on both cases) and had a persistent cough for about 6 months after each illness and have been far more “snotty” than usual after the most recent bout. I’m not sure what would be reasonable in op’s workplace given these guidelines. Some people never return to “normal” or truly feel well again after covid.

      Incidentally, my partner and their extended biologically related family have found that many of them continued to test positive for COVID on home tests for up to 3 weeks after all symptoms have gone away.

      Reply ↓
    2. Myrin*

      I’d assume that falls broadly under the “(if you believe your coughing is “just allergies”, wear a face mask)” part of that rule.

      Reply ↓
      1. Silver Robin*

        Yeah, coughs linger for a lot of illnesses without it being contagious (persistent inflammation). I guess the OP could/should have said “if you are certain your symptoms are non-contagious, eg allergies, please wear a mask” but also…they have they whole bit about checking with your supervisor, which is where I expect the edge cases to be dealt with.

        All these comments about not having enough sick time…Yes, lots of places would not, but this particular LW’s workplace with this particular employee does actually have enough sick time! And LW was kind enough to share the language/guidelines they used that worked for them. Nobody is saying that those are the guidelines that *must* be put in place or that they cannot be adjusted for different scenarios, it is just an example. But LW is getting piled on with a bunch of “well this would NEVER work for me!!!!” Sandwich rule people, sandwich rule!

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      2. Aglet*

        But it’s not “just allergies.” They clearly know it’s from the COVID they haven’t completely recovered from. it actually falls under “You may return to work only after your symptoms have fully subsided.”

        Reply ↓
        1. Myrin*

          That’s why I said “broadly” (and possibly one reason why OP put “just allergies” in quotation marks). “Just allergies” = “something else causing your cough which isn’t actually contagious”.
          OP’s workplace clearly cares about people being contagious first and foremost and probably isn’t staffed by three-year-olds who have never heard of a lingering cough before. Nothing is stopping people this pertains to from talking to OP/another supervisor and explaining their specific case.

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        2. amoeba*

          Even the WHO (?) officially recommended that a lingering dry cough doesn’t count as a persistent symptom if one is otherwise healthy – because it’s well known that that can linger for weeks (not just after COVID), long after you stop being contagious.

          Reply ↓
  10. Sara without an H*

    Another win for clarity and common sense. I’m glad the LW’s HR support was helpful — without HR at their back, this could have been much tricker to solve.

    Reply ↓
  11. CzechMate*

    I might add here that some folks (including and especially me) feel guilty taking time off when sick, even though that’s what sick time is for. I’ve had workplaces where there was no paid sick leave (because the United States) and other workplaces where calling in sick meant leaving other employees in the lurch. (I also think it stems from having a working mom who would visibly struggle figuring out what to do with me when I was sick and couldn’t go to school and who seemed visibly so much happier when I just “powered through” so she could go to work, but that’s another matter.)

    I do think you need to emphasize staying home when you’re sick and love all of the above, but I think it’s also important to remember that people who come in when sick aren’t necessarily trying to be arrogant–they may have been conditioned for so long to just power through when sick that they feel guilty staying home. If you have an employee like that, they kind of need to be given permission to take time off, like, “Hey, I’ve noticed you come to work a lot when you’re sick. We can’t have that happen because we need to protect the health of our other employees, but also, I don’t WANT you to feel that you need to come in when you don’t feel well. Your job is not going to be jeopardized because you use your paid sick time to recover. Go home. We’ll take care of everything here.”

    Reply ↓
    1. Pizza Rat*

      There’s no may about it. The guilt tripping about taking sick time can start with one’s parents and the implication that you have a poor work ethic if you call in sick for anything other than emergency surgery.

      Jobs do it too, especially those that refuse to staff enough people. Nobody wants to leave their colleagues in the lurch, so if they can walk upright, they’ll work.

      At one job, I was dinged for using more than half of my sick time.

      Reply ↓
  12. ham sandwich, esq.*

    “First off: I called our HR assistant director to ask for guidance.”

    Good thinking. I’m glad it paid off.

    Reply ↓
  13. Emily (not a robot)*

    In general this is great, but I do not think being kept away from people who are *congested* is a reasonable expectation for people who leave their homes during winter. You should be protected from people coughing on you at work, for sure, or from people who are contagious with the flu. But the costs for employees of having to take sick leave every time they have a cold are significant — and they’re still going to be exposed to colds repeatedly and everywhere else, unless the only place they’re around other people is at work, which is rare.

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    1. I Have RBF*

      Try living with immune compromised people. My household masks up whenever we are outside around people.

      Since I started working remotely and not going out unmasked I haven’t had my usual “biannual colds”. The only time I caught covid was when I was unmasked in an empty elevator at a hotel (don’t do this, flight crews leave covid in their wake) or when a roomie brought it home. (We had to point out that she had to mask on public transit.)

      It used to be I was out twice a year for a week with a heavy-duty cold with fever, chills, coughing, etc., because of my coworkers with kids would come to work sick, and I would get their crud.

      Reply ↓
      1. Emily (not a robot)*

        Right, so you wear masks in order to manage your own risk levels. And even if this were the policy at work, it sounds like you’d still do that. If you want to not be exposed to highly prevalent and communicable diseases, that’s what you do.

        Reply ↓
      2. Katara's side braids*

        Yup. I got my first cold in 4 years a couple months ago. Other than that, my only illnesses since 2020 have been Covid infections that I could directly link to family events where I relaxed my mask habits.

        Reply ↓
  14. Pterodactyls are under-cited in the psychological literature*

    LW, thank you for stepping up to protect everyone’s health! So glad your HR was helpful and your city policies were supportive. My kiddo’s school also does a lot of infection-prevention messaging and showed they meant it when kiddo was sick and needed to stay home for a full week – they fully supported it and made it easy for her to catch up when she got back. Very grateful for those who look out for their communities!

    Reply ↓
  15. Asthma, COPD, Weak Lungs?*

    Wow, I wouldn’t have been allowed at work for 4 months this year because of coughing with those rules. They are FAR too restrictive. Even the CDC says “Symptoms are getting better” on covid for return to work masked. I regularly cough for weeks on end. Any sickness I get goes straight to my lungs. And this dismissive concept that people with allergies and asthma are WRONG and actually contagious (as opposed to knowing full well when they’re still coughing a month after the original illness that they are not contagious) is very infantilizing to people with chronic conditions who do not need ADA accommodations to be allergic to the pollen in the air.

    Reply ↓
    1. JP*

      I think the LW swung too far in the other direction in implementing these guidelines. Coughs and colds can linger for a long time after you’ve gone through the virus shedding portion of an illness.

      Reply ↓
      1. Elsa*

        Yes, I also thought this was a swing to the opposite extreme. There is a wide range of reasonable behavior between “coworker came to work so sick that I had to drive him to the emergency room” to “if someone catches a cold they can’t come back to work until their cough is completely gone.”

        Reply ↓
    3. dude, who moved my cheese?*

      throughout the entire pandemic the CDC demonstrated they were going to balance public health with economic impact and many of their guidelines were/are designed to let business open and people return to work asap; their mid-pandemic guidelines were giving “Some of you may die, but it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.”

      Reply ↓
      2. Masks Save Lives*

        YES. CDC has consistently demonstrated their guidelines are more about the economy, and they barely consider health. They changed the guidelines once because the CEO of Delta Airlines got mad. Not because COVID transmission or contagious-ness had actually changed at all.

        Reply ↓
        1. Ally McBeal*

          To be fair, I think most government agencies operate this way – easily bendable to the will of CEOs and lobbyists. (Corporations are people! Money is speech! Hooray!) It’s just particularly disheartening when the public health is at stake.

          Reply ↓
        2. I Have RBF*

          This.

          IMO, the CDC guidelines are a minimal set of guidelines for otherwise healthy people – IOTW, NOT most of the US. People don’t realize just how many people are immune compromised, or will for some reason catch any and every damned illness going around.

          The CDC doesn’t care, because the CEOs and oligarchs need their peons to come in to the office to perform for them so they can feel powerful and “in control.” They make the rules behind the scene, and the CDC is owned. It will not get better for the foreseeable future.

          The bottom line is, protect yourself and the people around you. You don’t need a CDC directive to wear a mask if you might be sick, or want to avoid getting sick.

          Reply ↓
      1. Dahlia*

        Are people missing this is a library and a public facing position? People don’t want to be coughed on when they go to the library. This is not unreasonable.

        Reply ↓
  16. Masks Save Lives*

    The number of people responding to this with “Oh, but I’m always sniffly/my cough lasts weeks after other symptoms” are being ridiculous and ignoring the stipulation/allowance that you may return to work but WEAR A MASK to still protect others’ peace of mind. I swear it’s like 95% of society became allergic to masks after 2022.

    Since this workplace in particular *makes masks available* to employees, I think this is perfectly reasonable. The point is that no one *else* knows if your cough is “just allergies” or a cold they don’t want to catch, so please, wear a mask if you’re in public (including at work!) to protect others if you’re coughing/sneezing constantly

    Reply ↓
    1. Over Analyst*

      It specifically calls out coughing for masking, though. I’ve been sniffly since the summer due to allergies and stuff. I’d happily wear a mask and if I don’t feel well otherwise I stay home, but per this guidance I’d be expected to stay home 90% of the time since like August.

      Reply ↓
      1. Silver Robin*

        okay so the response is to suggest that in the next iteration, LW say “if your symptoms are ‘just allergies’ or you are confident they are non-contagious please wear a mask” rather than putting it with the coughing; which is constructive and reasonable.

        Instead we have a bunch of comments saying LW is being ridiculous, unrealistic, and over the top, which is not constructive and kind of mean spirited at this point. Especially since the LW has specifically told us it has been a successful policy!!

        Reply ↓
        1. Myrin*

          Yeah, I would personally tweak several points in OP’s guidelines but I think they’re perfectly fine as a baseline and her staff seems to have been receptive to them. But I’m astounded by how… helpless some commenters present themselves.

          I’m not sure that’s the right word but I don’t really know how else to express it (and this is something that happens regularly with all kinds of letters, not just this one in particular) – it’s like “OP didn’t mention anything about my specific circumstances, guess I’ll die” instead of maybe going “What seems to be OP’s primary goal here and can I still meet that even if my situation isn’t explicitly and exactly spelled out?” or “This wouldn’t work for me as strictly as it’s phrased here but OP seems like a reasonable person so I’ll approach her about it” or “OP actually talked to each staff member individually(!) about these rules and probably heard them out on any concerns they had or maybe even gave more nuanced, personalised advice in one-on-one conversations”.

          Reply ↓
          1. Katara's side braids*

            It’s not quite the same thing, but it reminds me of the “bean soup” phenomenon in certain corners of the internet, where a recipe for bean soup gets multiple comments with some variation of “but what if I don’t like beans?”

            They’re both a “why didn’t you consider my specific circumstances before making this post about your own life” vibe, just in different flavors.

            Reply ↓
      2. I Have RBF*

        Bonus: Masks help reduce the pollen you are breathing in! An N95 will remove about 95% of the particulate – pollen – in the air you breathe. Masks are awesome for pollen and dust allergies. If it’s that season and I’m driving, I will wear a mask even alone in the car because it keeps me from sneezing as I drive, which is a safety issue.

        Reply ↓
    2. JP*

      The guidance is saying that you need to stay home until symptoms have completely subsided, not mask until the symptoms have completely subsided.

      Reply ↓
      1. Silver Robin*

        The guidance also says to talk to your supervisor if you have any questions. So if your cough is lasting weeks, talk to your supervisor and see what can be done.

        Reply ↓
    3. commensally*

      As someone who masked all day every day right up through the middle of 2024, saying “if you have certain chronic conditions that aren’t contagious, you and only you still have to mask every day because it makes other people uncomfortable to be around you” is really, really not a great look.

      Reply ↓
      1. Masks Save Lives*

        I *still* mask every day because I can’t afford to get sick. I would prefer if *everyone* still masked every day in public, but at the very least you should mask if you have symptoms that could suggest contagious illness!

        Reply ↓
        1. commensally*

          The thing is, “in public” means something different when you’re working a job that puts you “in public” 9-10 hours a day than it does if you mask up when you go out once in awhile. (I definitely appreciate the people who still mask up when they go out once in awhile, and I mask when I go somewhere crowded or otherwise extra-high-risk.)

          I masked at work until it became clear that things weren’t going to get any better, and it was either decide I was going to mask all day every day for the rest of my life (which was about six months longer than any of my coworkers), or accept a risk. I was getting skin conditions on my face from the mask irritation by that point, so I stopped. That has to be individual choice at this point.

          To say that someone needs to mask all day every day if they have “symptoms that could suggest contagious illness” even if they know for a fact they’re not contagious or immunocompromised is putting an extra, pointless burden on someone with a disability because being around their disability makes you uncomfortable.

          You should not put extra pointless burdens on people with disabilities solely because being around their disabilities make you uncomfortable.

          Reply ↓
          2. Dahlia*

            “Being able to go into work when you are unable to function” and “Getting everyone at your public workplace sick” is not a reasonable accomodation.

            Reply ↓
          3. Masks Save Lives*

            As someone else said, being immunocompromised is also a disability. should those people just have to stay home all the time?

            And again, for the record I mask for 9-10 hours a day at my job. Including teaching a 4 hour long lab while masked. It’s a reasonable expectation to keep other people healthy and show you care about other people.

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        2. I Have RBF*

          I still mask when in public, because I live with immune compromised people. I don’t know why people have a problem with it. It’s a perfectly reasonable approach to public health.

          Reply ↓
  17. MrMassTransit*

    Glad to see a workplace taking this seriously and being direct. There’s a lot of commentary here about people not being able to come to work for months at a time if they had to work under this policy, but I think the reasonable approach is if there’s any chance your symptomatic, wear a mask. One of my largest frustrations is having obviously sick people at work, on public transit, etc, without masks. I get it’s not always possible to stay home but please take some simple steps to slow the spread of disease. If I get sick that means I might not be able to see family over the holidays because of relatives who are immunocompromised. Plus I just don’t want to get sick!

    Reply ↓
    1. I Have RBF*

      This.

      This is not just about covid. It’s also about colds (which can turn into pneumonia), flu, RSV, etc.

      If you might be contagious, wear a mask around other people.

      Reply ↓
  18. Still masking bc no one stays home*

    I wish my work would implement these great rules. I just had a coworker complaining about not feeling great and I asked if they were sick and they said “I don’t know but [insert list of *obvious* symptoms of being sick]” and I wanted to slam my head into my desk in frustration. Especially since working from home is totally an uncomplicated option for our office. Stay home, people, please!!!!!

    Reply ↓
    2. Blue Spoon*

      If being reassigned to the parks department in order to remain employed in 2020 taught me anything, it’s that people in authority do not believe that library work can be done from home.

      Reply ↓
  20. tabloidtained*

    Seems more or less reasonable as long as there are no punitive consequences for adhering to this policy (e.g., losing PTO, poor annual review, etc.).

    Reply ↓
  22. Peanut Hamper*

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one.

    I’m so glad that this worked out so well for all involved. And a special thank you to OP for including the wording they had on their signs.

    Reply ↓
  23. Kate*

    In reacting to these guidelines as too rigorous, I think many of us may be thinking about the fact that we now know one sheds virus *before symptoms appear* and that the risk of contagion peaks and declines before symptoms may be gone. Requiring masking for any lingering cough or congestion not only burdens many folks who struggle with those symptoms for weeks at a time, as others have said, it’s not the best tool to deal with potential contagion. Something needed to be done about that employee, but these policies go too far in the other direction. The pandemic pre-vaccine was a unique case where masking was the only known way to protect others from a potentially deadly germ, but it’s not reasonable to have an expectation that you won’t be exposed to respiratory viruses in indoor spaces in the winter.

    Reply ↓
    1. Emily (not a robot)*

      Yes, pre-symptomatic transmission is absolutely one of the issues here. This policy solves the problem of “my coworker seems contagious and that makes me uncomfortable” much more comprehensively than it solves the problem of “the cold virus is everywhere for months and if you are around other people, you are going to get exposed to it constantly.”

      Reply ↓
  24. Another Kristin*

    Curious how this will shake out at a library, which is dependent on having in-person staff to serve patrons. Regardless of how much PTO Brian has, you need coverage to provide service, right? How practical will these rules be if your entire staff is mildly symptomatic of something, as is pretty common in the late fall/winter? Who decides who has to come in so people can check out books?

    Reply ↓
  25. Insert Pun Here*

    I get that this is a reaction to a fundamentally unreasonable employee, but I agree that this is way too restrictive. I get two and a half weeks of sick time (in addition to generous vacation/personal time) per year and this would wipe it out, and I’m not even particularly prone to illness.

    Reply ↓
    1. Katara's side braids*

      These are rules that OP wrote for their specific workplace, where they hopefully took their specific PTO policies into consideration. OP’s rules wouldn’t fit at my workplace either, but that doesn’t make it “too restrictive” for their workplace, because leave policies are different at different places.

      Reply ↓
      1. Insert Pun Here*

        Per the BLS, the average sick leave entitlement for state and local government employees is twelve days per year (data as of March 2024), which is generous compared to the private sector’s average of 7 days/year. I suppose it’s possible that OP’s workplace is an extreme outlier, sure.

        This is a great policy for making people think they’re overall safer than they are. As others have noted, COVID is quite contagious before symptoms appear. And some large percentage of infections are entirely asymptomatic. Everyone should assume that they’re being exposed to viruses (et al) all the time; that is a consequence of living in the world.

        Reply ↓
  26. Ariana*

    Just a piece of anecdata; because I am immunocompromised, I went home March 2020 and haven’t been back to work since. I still mask if I am around people (post office, grocery, etc). I used to get several colds every year. I have not had a *single* cold since 2019.

    Reply ↓
  27. Lindy B.*

    I was working as an RN in the NICU for about 28 years and got report one day from a nurse who was sick. I got the same thing she had, missed work for three months and after that never got better. I have been on disability for almost eight years now, being sick with ME/CFS, POTS, Orthostatic Intolerance and Mast Cell Activation Syndrome as well as a few other fun things like Fibromyalgia. Something happened to my neurological and immune systems and I now mostly have to stay in bed for the day and can only occasionally go out and do normal things like shopping. This nurse NEVER should have been allowed to work being that sick, especially working with vulnerable preemies.

    Reply ↓
    1. My name is tired*

      Well maybe what works for this very specific work environment wasn’t intended to work for every single AMA commenter and their dog?

      Reply ↓
  29. H*

    These temperature choices are baffling to me, a person who spends every day at work repeatedly saying “a fever is a temperature of 100.4 or more.”

    Reply ↓

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