update: should I correct students who address me as Mrs.?

by Alison Green on December 17, 2024

It’s “where are you now?” month at Ask a Manager, and all December I’m running updates from people who had their letters here answered in the past.

There will be more posts than usual this week, so keep checking back throughout the day.

Remember the professor asking whether to correct students who address her as Mrs. (#3 at the link)? Here’s the update.

I am the college professor who wrote to you about my students addressing me using the honorific Mrs., rather than Ms. or Dr.

The comments and suggestions I received in response to my letter gave me the confidence to view the beginning of the fall semester as an important teachable moment. When I introduced myself at the start of class, I clearly explained not only how students should address me (“Dr. Green”) but also how they should NOT address me. In addition, I included with the course materials a blog post explaining how to address women in the workplace.

On the downside, it took less than a week for me to receive my first “Dear Mrs. Green” email. On the upside, now at 11 weeks into the semester, the use of “Dr. Green” has increased significantly, Ms. is used rarely, and Mrs. has almost disappeared.

In addition to my decision to be more clear and direct about my preferences (and provide the blog post), there are two other factors that may have caused the switch from Mrs. Green to Dr. Green. First, my very large class happens to have a great group of students this semester (every class is different and I lucked out this time). Second, I became department chair during the summer, so I may now seem more important.

It will be a few months until I know if my use of the teachable moment will be mentioned in my teaching evaluations. But in any case, I have experienced less annoyance from reading or hearing “Mrs.” this semester and I will definitely continue my crusade with future classes. Also, I believe that I have probably helped some of my students avoid annoying their post-college colleagues, so I feel good about that.

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  1. Dido*

    When I was in college (I was in undergrad just a few years ago, and grad until last year), we all called our professors by their first names or Professor Last Name (yes, even the PhDs wanted to be called Professor). I find it really strange that so many students of the LW’s students are defaulting to using Mrs./Ms. as though they’re still children talking to an authority. I can’t even think of the last time I used those sorts of honorifics in my adult life. I wonder if it’s regional?

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    1. Potato Potato*

      It could be. I’m from the American South and we do love our gendered titles here. But also, when I was in college (same location), I also only heard professors called Professor Last Name (or occasionally Professor ShortVersionOfLastName)

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      1. run mad; don't faint*

        I’m from the American South too and still live here. My college aged kids who are attending to a smaller state school routinely call their professors by their first names. The one who went to a larger state school used more formal modes of address, I believe.

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    2. DrFrog*

      I am a professor at a research university in the mountain west. Women faculty get referred to as Mrs. regularly. However, I rarely hear students refer to male faculty as Mr. Smith. My uni sent a holiday card to me addressed to Mrs. Husband’sFirstName Huband’sLastName. We don’t have the same last name, I am required to have a PhD for my job, and my spouse does not work for the uni. Also note that at least some male faculty were addressed as Dr. It is most certainly a deeply ingrained gender bias issue.

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      1. I Have RBF*

        My uni sent a holiday card to me addressed to Mrs. Husband’sFirstName Huband’sLastName.

        Arggh! So very sexist! That literally erases your name and existence!

        I might have been snarky enough to return it with “No such person at this address”, but that’s me being petty.

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        1. Worldwalker*

          It’s appropriate.

          It’s bad enough to address a woman by her marital status rather than her professional title, but addressing her by her husband’s name went out generations ago.

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        2. Kay*

          I thought I was maybe being petty considering returning the letter from my husband’s parents (we do not have a relationship due to very good reasons, though they claim to want one even though they do things like… this. They are well aware I never changed my name!) with an “undeliverable, no such recipient at this address”. The above is much more offensive than mine!

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    3. Double A*

      Many students have just completed 12 years of calling all their teachers Mrs./Mr. It’s a cultural thing around K12 education.

      (I’m a teacher and wish we didn’t use honorifics, I’m called Mrs. all the time though I prefer Ms. and what I’d really prefer is just my name).

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      1. Lucky*

        I remember making the switch from Mrs. to Ms. for my teachers in high school . . . in the 80s. Did that just not stick?

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          1. Mad Harry Crewe*

            Double A very specifically said: “I’m called Mrs. all the time though I prefer Ms. and what I’d really prefer is just my name.”

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        2. Golden*

          Doesn’t seem like it. My schooling was in the 00s-10s and almost all teachers were Mr. or Mrs. LastName.

          My child’s New England daycare has teachers who go by Mrs. (as their own preference, there are others that use just their first name), so it definitely didn’t die out.

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      2. Observer*

        Many students have just completed 12 years of calling all their teachers Mrs./Mr. It’s a cultural thing around K12 education.

        That does not explain the use of Mrs. rather than Ms. And it also doesn’t explain moving on to Dr / Professor for men but not women.

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    4. Wayward Sun*

      When in doubt I always default to Prof., and it’s what I used back when I was in college. I’m on a first-name basis with most of the faculty in my department, but I try to use Prof. Lastname if I’m including a student in the thread, to model good behavior.

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    5. fhqwhgads*

      Probably some of it is regional, but a lot of it is school-specific. Where I went, 100% of the faculty went by first names with students. It was just how it was there, and it was clear very quickly. Any student using Mr./Ms./Dr./Professor would’ve stuck out in a record-scratch kind of way.

      But that’s not really the issue in the letter anyway. The issue is folks defaulting to one even after being told explicitly not to use it. And if the same students weren’t calling male profs “Mr.”, then we know it’s plain old sexism, not acting like schoolchildren.

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    6. CubeFarmer*

      Or it could be that they’re still adjusting from the accepted high-school nomenclature to what’s more common in college. I remember that it took me several weeks to adjust.

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    7. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I was told that Professor is a more prestigious title than Doctor (more people have PhDs than professorships), and you default to the highest available title.

      My college was very casual and we called our professors by their first names, but I would definitely never have pulled our a Mr or Ms in favor of Prof, if the situation came up.

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      1. Kevin Sours*

        My school used Professor rather than Doctor but that included the handful of instructors who did not have PhDs. I always attributed to it being a small and somewhat informal environment. Some professors just went by a bare last name and, well, Mike was always Mike.

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    8. Strive to Excel*

      I had the opposite problem of this where a number of the teachers at the business school I attended insisted that they were not professors, they were lecturers, and that Professor So-And-So was the incorrect address. Maddening!

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    9. e271828*

      When I was in college also, we addressed all the faculty as Professor. I would never have thought of calling them Mr. or Mrs.! They were professors, not high school teachers.

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    10. House On The Rock*

      yeah, it’s deeply weird to me for faculty to ask to be addressed as “Doctor”. At my Seven Sisters college over 30 years ago it was customary to use first names or Mr./Ms for older faculty. Insisting on “Dr.” would be seen as quite pretentious.

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  2. mcm*

    I confess to having been very unclear on how to address instructors in college. It was often sort of opaque to me, someone without a ton of knowledge about academia, which of my classes were being taught by grad students and which by professors (never mind getting into full professor vs. assistant professor etc!). You are definitely doing these students a service by making that as explicit as possible and helping them navigate it in the future. I always appreciated professors who would say, “you should call me x,” and it’s a significant additional help for you to take the time to explain WHY. Good for you and thanks for doing this!

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    1. Peanut Hamper*

      I remember setting up an appointment with the English advisor for my English major. Our department secretary made the appointment, handed me a card with the date and time on it, and said “Dr. Smith prefers to be called ‘Dr. Smith'”.

      I was very thankful to that secretary for the heads-up. It was just one less thing to be nervous about.

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    2. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I work in academia and it is so random sometimes. 95% in the main college of the university go by first name, except those that really really do not. The other colleges seem to be pretty random and nobody really cares one way or the other.

      But one of the colleges exclusively goes by Dr. And it is so confusing because they will call each other Jim and Sarah if it is one on one, but always Dr. Smith and Dr. Jones if there is a 3rd person – even if that 3rd person is also one of their peer colleagues that they would use a first name if it was one on one. I am a rogue outsider who keeps forgetting the rules.

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    2. Ms. Take*

      Unless the expectation is that we should address anyone with a JD as “doctor” (Dr. Ben Shapiro?), I’ll save that particular honorific for medical doctors, thanks.

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        1. Ms. Take*

          Not so. In fact, insisting on being referred to as a doctor can amount to misconduct in certain situations (as in my JD example); in others, it comes across as slightly petty or, with the greatest respect to the First Lady, faintly ridiculous.

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          1. Kevin Sours*

            It is not generally customary for whatever reason to refer to holder’s of JDs and doctorates so that has really no bearing on whether or not to refer to the holder of a PhD as a doctor.

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            1. Ms. Take*

              That is sort of my point. There’s no logical reason why JDs shouldn’t be referred to as doctors—indeed, many of them have referred to themselves as such over the years, to varying degrees of ridicule—but custom dictates that, for whatever reason, they shouldn’t be. Outside of academia, the same holds true for PhDs and the holders of various other non-medical doctorates. I really don’t mean to pick on Jill Biden, but if her students and colleagues wish to refer to her as Dr. Biden then they should of course be free to do so; the idea that they rest of us should play along (or refer to JDs as “doctors” or “esquires”) is a step too far.

              For those of us of a certain age, Rachel’s reaction to Ross when he refers to himself as Dr. Geller while visiting a hospital summarizes how most of us see the issue.

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              1. Kevin Sours*

                “Outside of academia, the same holds true for PhDs and the holders of various other non-medical doctorates.”

                You keep repeating that but it’s not really true. Is there any logic to referring to PhDs as Doctor but not JDs? Not really. But there are a lot of things that are done because that’s the way they are done. It’s pretty common to refer to holders as PhD is a lot of settings — and not specifically academia. More formal social gatherings and in particular those with a more business or professional focus.

                Yes it can come across as a bit pretentious to insist on being styled Dr socially. But you come up against the fact that people are much more likely to use the title of Dr spontaneously for men than woman. It’s still the case that a woman at a gathering of PhDs is going to be assumed to be an assistant or somebody’s wife rather than a peer. It’s a problem. Woman are frequently put in the position of having to either come across as pretentious by insisting that their credentials be recognized or watch them be ignored.

                What you seeing and objecting to is people refusing to let them be ignored.

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              2. Happy*

                You really don’t represent “most of us” on this issue. You can think that people with PhDs wanting to be called “doctor” are ridiculous, but that’s a you-thing.

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                1. Dr. Ben Carson, B.A., M.D.*

                  Lot of PhDs getting their jimmies rustled on this one. Listen, Mister, it’s never too late to go to medical school.

          2. holy cow*

            This is a bizarrely hostile take. Medical doctors do not occupy some magical higher plane of being than anyone else. “Doctor” as an honorific recognizes a person’s experise in their choosen field, earned by completing a *doctorate* program, be that medical, educational, literature, or anything else. JD have their own specific term of address. It takes nothing away from medical doctors to recognize other people who’ve put the same quantity of effort into a different field.

            About some hypothetical situation on an airplane…all but the biggest doofuses recognize that a medical emergency requires a medical professional, not a PhD or EdD, and wouldn’t be jumping up. And frankly an EMT or nurse is often more useful than an MD in that scenario anyway; unless you’re in some specific fields, those skills don’t get used enough to be fresh.

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      2. snakesnacks*

        First of all, a JD is not considered an earned doctorate. Second of all, Dr. Jill Biden teaches at a college, so her PhD is relevant to her professional credentials.

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        1. Ms. Take*

          First of all, a JD is not considered an earned doctorate.

          According to whom? It’s certainly a doctorate (anyone who doubts that is free to look up with the D in JD stands for), and I’m willing to bet that no one who earned a JD regards it as an “unearned” qualification.

          Second of all, Dr. Jill Biden teaches at a college, so her PhD is relevant to her professional credentials.

          This is where I begin to suspect that there’s something other than a deep-seated respect for others people’s honorifics at play here. It’s one thing to use someone’s honorific in a professional setting, but for commenters to continuously refer to someone as “Dr.” in the comment section of a work-related blog smacks of sycophancy. (Just imagine how nauseating it would be if, to use my previous example, every online comment you read referred to Ben Shapiro as Dr. Shapiro or, worse, as Ben Shapiro, Esq.; it’s just bizzare)

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          1. Kevin Sours*

            We live in a world where women must be insistent — perhaps even a little petty — to receive the same recognition for their accomplishments. That is context you should reflect on. Your weird insistence on focus JDs and Ben Shapiro despite the fact that Dr Biden holds a PhD and not JD is, frankly, bizarre and suggests you may not be arguing in good faith.

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            1. Ms. Take*

              Your weird insistence on focus JDs and Ben Shapiro despite the fact that Dr Biden holds a PhD and not JD is, frankly, bizarre and suggests you may not be arguing in good faith.

              Would you mind explaining what you mean by that? I was simply giving an example of a doctorate that does not, in most people’s minds, entitle its holders to be referred to as “doctors” and illustrating my point by giving an example of someone who most people would absolutely not wish to refer to as such. If you think I have some sinister motive for *checks notes* arguing against the use of inflated honorifics then I’d be very interested to hear what you think it could possibly be?

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              1. Kevin Sours*

                It is common to style holders of PhD as Doctor. It is not common to style holders of JDs Doctor. I am suspicious of people arguing against “inflated honorifics” in the context of a woman insisting on a title that is commonly according to men without issue.

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                1. Ms. Take*

                  I don’t think anyone, be they male, female, or nonbinary, should expect to be referred to as “doctor” by members of the public unless they hold a medical qualification; if their students and colleagues wish to do so in an academic or professional context, that’s their business. If that clear enough, I doubt there’s anything I can say or do that will make it any clearer.

      3. Ezra*

        Medical doctors copied it from academic doctors. Why would you restrict your usage to them rather than the original doctors?

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          1. MyQueeroAcademia*

            Well established custom is that you convey the earned title where it applies to their field. Not a gray area for the OP but perhaps for First Lady Biden depending on the context. Custom is an interesting metric to invoke when you keep referring to bestowing the Dr. title on JDs, which is not custom.

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            1. Ms. Take*

              Custom is an interesting metric to invoke when you keep referring to bestowing the Dr. title on JDs, which is not custom.

              My point is that it is ridiculous in both instances, which is how most people outside of academia see it (see my reference to Friends above).

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          2. Worldwalker*

            That is absolutely not a “well-established custom.” When I was in college, Fred Smith who had a PhD was absolutely referred to as Dr. Smith.

            For that matter, one of my high school science teachers was Dr. Hillis — his PhD was in biology. He was not an MD. Note that this was in w70s.

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      4. HannahS*

        Speaking as a medical doctor, I find that odd. As I understand it, lawyers have never been called “Doctor.” People with PhDs had the title first, then it was taken by medical doctors, so those two categories get called “doctor.” When I was in university, I called my professors “Professor Smith” or “Dr. Smith.” I am addressed as “Dr. S” or “Dr. Hannah” by children. I don’t have a docotorate. I have, weirdly, two undergraduate degrees, one of which entitles me to be called “doctor.”

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        1. Kevin Sours*

          To be clear holders of JDs are not typically referred to as Doctor. People who hold PhDs in the law are a different matter.

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          1. HannahS*

            Not sure why you’re nitpicking me when I’m agreeing with your point. Very few lawyers have PhDs in law, just like how very few doctors merit the title “professor.”
            Anyway, out of curiosity, would a judge address a lawyer who happened to have a PhD in anything “Dr. Lastname?” I know some lawyers with PhDs in philosophy, but to my knowledge, lawyers in court are addressed as “Mr.” or “Ms.”

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      6. Shellfish Constable*

        Well, it’s what the D in PhD stands for (philosophiae doctor), so it’s not that weird that some people at some institutions would refer to somebody with that degree as Dr. [NAME,]. In fact, the MD derived from the PhD. And at my university — where I am in the humanities but work with folks at the med school with MDs and MD/PhDs — I am referred to as Dr. Constable, so there’s no bad blood or territoriality there.

        Weirdly, the only population who still refer to me as Mrs Constable are undergrads in our business school. {shrug emoji}

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      7. Sir Gawain*

        Biden has a Doctor of Education (Ed.D.), not a JD, and Ed.D. are titled doctors, just as holders of a Doctor of Philosophy (PhD) or Doctor of Divinity (DD) would be.

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  4. Seashell*

    I wonder if some (although probably not most) of the problem is an email program making suggestions on what you should say. For example, I use my given name on my personal email, but nearly everyone who knows me calls me by a non-obvious nickname. I have gotten emails back that say “Dear (Given Name)” where I wouldn’t expect the person to even know that name, so I am guessing their email suggested it.

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  5. Alex*

    I had a middle school teacher that, every time a kid called her Ms. X, she would instantly respond “Mrs., I’m married” before answering the question lol. It’s completely reasonable to be clear about addressment, and you’d be totally reasonable to remind students when they get it wrong!

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    1. DrFrog*

      Although in this case, Ms. is not “incorrect” so much as preference as the point of Ms. is that it applies regardless of marital status. We really need to stop with honorifics, especially in professional situation, that are based on marital status. 1) being married has zero to do with one’s professional duties and 2) male honorifics are independent of marital status.

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      1. Heather*

        Not to mention, in some areas, LGBTQ teachers are expected to hide their personal lives from students. Would a woman married to another woman be expected to be addressed as Miss or Ms because of that?

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      2. Worldwalker*

        THIS.

        Women should not be addressed based on their availability, which is where the Miss/Mrs distinction came from. It was from before women were doctors (or professors) or pretty much anything else, and their only social value was whether they were available for marriage.

        We really need to leave that in the past.

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    2. Double A*

      Ugh, I hate Mrs. so much. My marital status has nothing to do with my job. But I used it for my colleagues who prefer it (I’m a teacher, the only profession where we have to worry about this)

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      1. Jenesis*

        Same! And I didn’t change my name when I married either. As I like to tell people, Mrs. Husbandlast is my husband’s mother. Mrs. “Maidenname” is my mother. I’m just Ms. Mylast.

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      2. Timothy (TRiG)*

        The idea that Mrs has anything to do with marital status is a fairly modern one. Formerly, it was a title of respect for an adult woman. A head cook, for example, or a housekeeper in a grand house, a hospital matron, any woman in any such role.

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    1. Roland*

      One of my professors did the same during my very first college term. She didn’t mind her first name only, but Mrs was off the table. I found it very helpful as a newbie to college.

      In retrospect, the instructor for my other course that term was probably not technically a professor which is why she just skipped all that and only explained how to pronounce her (first) name. But because she took those 10s to explain that, it was obvious that this was how we should address her.

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  7. Princess Tomato in the Salad Kingdom*

    I’m so glad that it became a teachable moment. I imagine that if I tried the same approach, the same outcome would happen for me. I teach online so I often get “Professor.”

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  8. Toni Blum*

    So, my husband and I are both professors with doctorates, AND we share the same First and Last name, AND we teach in the same discipline. We have students who go through hoops to differentiate: “Dr. Mrs.” “Dr. Mr.”, “Dr. LastName female” “Dr. LastName male”, …the one with the red hair/black hair… etcetera. When they are addressing us directly, “Dr. LastName” is fine. When they are trying to explain to someone else to whom they wish to speak, well…

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  9. Zephy*

    For a good while there it seemed like the late teens/early 20s set had somehow collectively decided that “Mrs.” was the Most Respectful Way to address an adult woman. I base this on interactions with high school and college students circa 2013-2019, who were very clearly trying their hardest to be Polite And Professional when addressing me. They insisted on calling me Mrs. Lastname; I might have gotten a Mrs. Zephy once. I was not married at that time, and I don’t think I corrected anyone because it doesn’t bother me as much as it did this OP. I do think this is starting to change, I don’t get Mrs’d nearly as often anymore, but I am starting to hear “Miss” (with an S) again more, as opposed to Ms. (“mizz,” with a z).

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    1. I Have RBF*

      I personally hate “Miss”. To me, “Miss” is a girl under the age of 18.

      What makes me want to explode is some CSR who insists on calling me “Miss GenderedFirstName”. Yes, I have to have it on my DL and accounts, but how about calling me Ms (or Mx) LastName? I’m not a freaking kid, FFS.

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      1. Nightengale*

        those same customer service people keep trying to call me Mrs

        I’m a doctor but they don’t necessarily know that
        I would be fine with them defaulting to Ms
        I am fine being called Miss
        I don’t really even mind first name although I wish they didn’t use it in a script every 2 sentences.
        Mrs is inaccurate.

        When I have pointed out that they have no way to know whether or not I am married and thus shouldn’t use Mrs, they tell me this is intended to be respectful.

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          1. I Have RBF*

            This.

            My marital status has zero bearing on my account status, or anything else, except when it comes to death and taxes.

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      2. hugseverycat*

        I’ve worked in lots of call centers and they literally force you to use specific honorifics and refer to you by name at least X number of times per call. What honorific (and whether they use one at all) depends on the company. When I worked for Apple and Netflix we were on a first-name-basis with callers, but for JC Penney it was honorific + last name.

        And yeah, they count how many times you say the customer’s name and if it’s below a particular threshold you can get disciplined. So that’s why they say your name a hundred thousand times.

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  10. Happily Retired*

    When I started at my university, my professors never told the class as a whole what to call them. All their emails are signed with their first names only, up to and including the Chancellor, which makes me think it’s email policy, not preference. Finally I had one who said, “ You can call me First Name, or Dr or Professor First Name, or Dr or Professor Last Name.” So I know what to call him. The rest I just call Ummm.

    One of the benefits of etiquette in the Triassic, when I grew up, is that the person with the perceived higher social status was supposed to take the initiative in offering to use their first name or alternative. This was still awkward in cases like younger physician/ older female patient, but at least it was a start.

    Kudos to professors who take the initiative, especially those who are female-presenting and explain the gender imbalances in titles!

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  11. Disappointed Australien*

    When I was at university students defaulted to Dr, to the ongoing irritation of one “Mr not Dr dammit” lecturer who was annoyed about his lack of PhD.

    There’s a (now Emeritus) Professor of Economics in Australia who once posted on his blog something like “you may refer to me as Professor Quiggin, Dr Quiggin, John Quiggin but not John or Quiggs”. I of course requested to refer to him as Q or Prof Q after the Bond movies :)

    Maybe it’s just me but I know a non-trivial number of “Dr and Mr” couples. It’s not a wildly unusual thing any more. And a “Professor and Mr” couple, plus a “Professor and Ms” couple who are both women. Although they might be “Professor and Dr”. I’m going to have to ask.

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  12. Meanprof*

    Oohh, I’d be tempted to take any email addressed to Mrs to the next lecture or tutorial and use it as a teaching moment!!! Put it up in the screen, and get some discussion going about why someone would choose to go completely against the instructions provided.
    Too mean? Nah – I bet the student concerned manages to follow other instructions adequately.

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  13. felis*

    Perspective from a non-native speaker: in German we default to using the title traditionally used for married women “Frau” for all women now. The title traditionally used for unmarried women “Fräulein” is a diminutive and is widely considered as infantilizing and demeaning and has fallen mostly out of use. So before I learned, that Ms is the neutral title in English, I would never have addressed someone as Ms, because it would have felt rude like using “Fräulein” and would definitely have defaulted to using “Mrs”. I know better know, but many native German speakers (and I think the case is similar in some other languages, like French and Spanish) probably don’t. If there are any non-native speaking students in those classes, they might not have known and you’re helping them out big time by providing both guidance and explanation.

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    1. Disappointed Australien*

      It’s possibly slightly more complex, Ms is a recent(ish) coining to avoid the distinction between Miss and Mrs. So every female-presenting person can be Ms and you don’t have to guess based on age or marital status or whatever other system the local people use to change between those titles.

      Less often, but depending on context Mrs could be somewhat offensive to a non-PhD because it assumes the existence of an owning male spouse. To a PhD it could thus be doubly offensive.

      Much better to go with Professor Doktor Lastname :)

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  14. Miss Me Not*

    A question for you all: What do you do when a student knows better seems to be deliberately flouting your expressed preference in a way that seems like a power play? Recently, a student has been asking for unreasonable special treatment (e.g., late work accepted weeks after other students had submitted it, going against the syllabus), claiming special circumstances that remain vague. Our liberal arts college recently prohibited faculty from asking for medical notes; we’re supposed to accept student claims at face value and accommodate them. (When I offered to help him enroll with the disability center, he begged off.) Although I have clearly stated examples in the syllabus as to how to address me (I don’t belabor the point), and I was trying to accommodate some of his requests, he’s moved from calling me “Professor Y” to calling me by my first name exclusively and repeatedly, sometimes in the same email. My instinct is he’s trying to get a rise out of me and to leave it alone, especially since the quarter is over soon. Another (also male) student, who seems a bit irked that his grade is lower than desired, has persisted in calling me “Miss. Y.” What do you all think?

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    1. meanprof*

      See, that’s when I’d bring it up in front of the whole class, make it like a lecture or review because “There are some of your number who are having difficulties with this concept”. Be really clear that this is an excellent example of misogyny (many won’t have had it spelled out to them previously) and provide a whole lecture on using the names and definitions that the person concerned asks you to. I’m in a slightly similar situation, and it feels slightly akin to using a deadname when someone has repeatedly been told my current name. If you are feeling really irked, you could call them out in front of the class, check that they are now absolutely clear. In a liberal arts college they might have to face the disgust of their peers – and that might be the strongest lever.

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    2. Mrs Doe is my MIL*

      I find these students infuriating but ultimately they do seem to be either oblivious or (as seems to be the case here) trying to get a reaction.

      Like others, I now give a spiel at the start of a class about appropriate forms of address that is mostly equivalent to “you can call me Dr Doe, Professor Doe, or Jane. Please do not call me Mrs Doe as that’s my mother in law.” If they call me Mrs Doe in person I sometimes give some side eye and they recalibrate.

      I’ve found the international students I work with have the most trouble adapting when they’ve come from a culture very cognizant of titles. It’s usually the entitled students who can’t be bothered to follow directions.

      (I’m also one who has handed mail to my spouse when it’s addressed to Mrs John Doe or even Mr and Mrs John Doe.

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      1. Jackalope*

        I grew up in the US but spent a few years living in a country with a LOT more formality in their language. There were at least six ways to say “you” depending mostly on the nature of your relationship with the other person, and multiple ways to say “he” or “she”, also depending on the level of formality. When I moved back to the US I had a hard time using anything but sir or ma’am with strangers or supervisors. I’ve moved on for the most part but I still feel more comfortable with that verbal formality. And the people in the country where I was living who also learned English had a really hard time with the casual way we greet and address each other.

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    3. lapidary*

      Oops, commenting fail. Meant my comment to be a reply to you, copying below:

      Could certainly be a power play, or an attempt to force you to correct him, marking you as petty or unreasonable. I find that in most cases, the students who want extra special (unreasonable) treatment from me tend to call me “Professor Lastname” when I’ve told them explicitly at the beginning of the semester and in my syllabus that they can call me Firstname. I second not engaging, although it sounds infuriating.

      Reply ↓
  15. lapidary*

    Could certainly be a power play, or an attempt to force you to correct him, marking you as petty or unreasonable. I find that in most cases, the students who want extra special (unreasonable) treatment from me tend to call me “Professor Lastname” when I’ve told them explicitly at the beginning of the semester and in my syllabus that they can call me Firstname. I second not engaging, although it sounds infuriating.

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      1. Ms. Take*

        I should probably leave it at that, but I’ll go further and say that if it were Joe Biden, rather than Jill Biden, who held an EdD and insisted on being referred to as “doctor” then he’d have been laughed out of public life years ago. The idea that someone with an EdD should be referred to as a doctor would strike most ordinary people outside of academia and without an idealogical ax to grind as totally absurd.

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        1. Dr. Greene*

          My letter was about interacting in academia, how to best prepare students for the workplace, and the role gender plays in addressing people in both places. It wasn’t about public life or pretending to know what “ordinary people” (?) find absurd. Like everyone, students can choose the extent to which they show anyone respect. But what the discussion of my initial letter helped me see is that they need to learn about ways they can show respect, or unintentionally show disrespect, before they need to make that choice in the workplace. Like the commenters above, I have also had students that seek to intentionally show disrespect. I also choose not to engage with those students.

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          1. Catagorical*

            Your communication has been very clear. Ms Take seems to be expressing strongly held tangentially related content. (As neutrally as I can put it.)

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        2. Arizonan*

          My elementary school principal had an EdD and the whole town called him Dr. Firstname, not just the students, and this wasn’t a terribly academic town either—this was rural Arizona. I don’t think you’re as in-tune with the rest of the country as you think you are.

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  17. Shellfish Constable*

    Thank you for sharing this update! I just wrapped a 100ish student course in which I stated at the outset I was Dr. Constable…only to receive multiple student emails every week addressed to Mrs Constable (not Ms., and sometimes just “Dear Shellfish…”). This is made extra awkward by the fact that my husband works at our same institution and has almost never been referred to as Mr. or his first name and while knowing that zero of my male colleagues have ever received emails addressed to Mr (I asked — they were “surprised!”). And, yes, my husband and I have different last names but have many students in common who know we are married. Weirdly, and as I posted above, several of the students who persist with Mrs are in our business school, so now I’m honestly wondering if it’s just something they’re being taught there? Like, “Always be respectful in emails and address people by an honorific such as Mr or Mrs”??? I’ll have to ask some folks I know over there; the plot thickens.

    Anyway, my point was that this post makes me think I should be more assertive about sharing this info with students at the beginning of the academic year…or at least tell them to call anyone teaching one of their classes “Professor” until they’re told otherwise!

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  18. Observer*

    Also, I believe that I have probably helped some of my students avoid annoying their post-college colleagues, so I feel good about that.

    I am sure that you have, and that is a good thing. For them and their future coworkers.

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  19. Ms. Young and Dumb*

    As a somewhat young person, I just want to say that it probably isn’t a respect thing. We just weren’t around for all of the cultural context that makes Ms., Miss, and Mrs. different. At least for me, I defaulted to “Mrs.” because it sounded fancier, so I figured if I used it it would make me more respectful… oh, how wrong I was! Only when I went to live with my grandmother for the summer and called her “Mrs. ___”, did she have a happily unmarried laugh at my expense and explain the difference.

    I should say, it was baffling to me that the title I had been using may have had someone believe that I was making a comment on their marital status… I legitimately thought my grandmother was messing with me! Maybe it’s a sign of the success of feminism, or the failure of our education system to teach history, but the idea that a woman’s worth or title should have anything to do with whether she was married or not seemed so out of left field. (I was 16. Maybe I was just a dummy.)

    My point is, while I definitely think being called Ms., Miss, or Mrs. anything (as opposed to Dr. or Professor) is a sexism and respect issue, I would put my money on the differentiation between Ms. and Mrs. just being a “young people ignorance” thing. It’s awesome that the students are being taught the difference – they’re gonna need to know! I just wouldn’t worry about this signaling a return to conservatism in the youth, or anything like that: I think the answer is somewhat the opposite (and a least, a lot more banal).

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    1. Dr. Greene*

      I love the fact that your grandmother has a “happily unmarried laugh” and the that she takes time to have discussions with her obviously thoughtful grandchild!

      Thank you for sharing your somewhat young person perspective – it’s really helpful.

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  20. Mark This Confidential And Leave It Laying Around*

    Once upon a time when people used the phone, I picked up a call coming on my female boss’s line. The woman on the other end asked me, “Is Boss married?” And I replied, “I don’t see how that’s any of your business,” and hung up. A few minutes later the phone rang again and a now very flustered caller explained she had to mail something to Boss (I did say once upon a time) and wanted to know if she should address it to Mrs. or Miss. I told her to address it to Ms. My now scandalized caller said, “Oh I couldn’t do that!” Oy. We’re in NYC, caller was in South Carolina. Mrs. was for married women, Miss for unmarried women, and Ms. for those awful feminists and she wouldn’t want to imply that about Boss. I told her the entire city of New York defaulted to Ms. unless told otherwise. She was amazed. But she addressed the letter to Ms. Boss.

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  23. Seripanther*

    First day of undergraduate Shakespeare class, a tiny woman in an enormous hat stood at the front of the classroom and announced, “I am PROFESSOR Siegfried or DOCTOR Siegfried. I am Mrs., Miss, or Ms. I am Brandie only to graduate students. I do not like teaching at the undergraduate level so I will run this course as a graduate seminar. You still have time to drop.”

    I became one of her grad students and still never dared call her Brandie. She was Dr. Siegfried all the way to her funeral, which I had the honor of attending. Would have jumped in front of a bus on that woman’s command.

    You get to expect the respect you are due. It is a service to those under your leadership. She taught me that.

    Reply ↓

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