open thread – February 14, 2025

by Alison Green on February 14, 2025

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Peanut Hamper*

    I am trying to get a raise at work and my boss has suggested that I put together a slide deck to highlight my achievements that he can then take to his boss to push for this. Has anyone else had to do this? Is this normal?

    I’m not sure I should have to do this. I have been at this company for just over three years, and do a lot of stuff that is above and beyond my actual job description. I have trained new people, extensively reworked the onboarding and training for our team, created tools (often with Excel VBA) to keep other teams organized and efficient, organized and indexed all our online reference materials, created a 1×1 meeting for that has impressed many people (including those in management), mentored new team members, have served as a resource for many other groups, etc. This is all work that other people on my team do not do, just me.

    I have gone above and beyond is many ways, and thus have been arguing for a promotion and/or a raise. I have watched people get hired, get a promotion, and then leave (and I was often the one who trained them). It has told to me that I haven’t gotten a promotion because I was “hired in at a higher level” which sounds like bullshit to me. Many of the people I just mentioned were just out of college and I have a couple of decades of experience, so I should be hired in at a higher level, right? Why would I have taken an entry level job at this point in my career? I recently told my boss that I don’t know what to do to prove my worth to this company. (We are not a small company with limited funds, either. We are a multi-billion Euro global corporation.)

    It is extremely frustrating to keep hearing this. Making this slide deck would not be onerous, because all of those achievements are on my constantly updated resume. The snarky part of myself wants to forego the slide deck and just hand them my resume. But why hand it to them when I could just send it out to other companies?

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    1. Cupcakes are awesome*

      The way to prove your worth is to start job hunting. You don’t need to prove it to them-
      because it sounds like you already have but as long as you stay (while others move on to greener pastures) they will keep taking advantage of you.

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        1. Busy Middle Manager*

          Pretty anemic job report last month from the BLS. 143K jobs created. Most in retail, healthcare, social services, and government.

          other categories like Accounting or telecom or real estate show barely any growth while some categories like admin support show slight declines

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        2. Kaden Lee*

          That’s a really unhelpful comment – Cupcakes are awesome isn’t advocating quitting without anything lined up, but job hunting while still working this job.

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          1. Busy Middle Manager*

            It’s actually quite helpful! I follow the labor reports closely, the job market is very frozen right now. Any given person outside of the few fields hiring right now (healthcare or retail) are very unlikely to get a role. It’s just statistically more likely you’ll have success trying to make your current situation work than force jobs that aren’t hiring, to hire.

            I mean, the constant stories and threads of people looking for a year without luck, or sending out 500 resumes and only getting two interviews despite excellent experience aren’t happening in a vacuum

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            1. Kaden Lee*

              Right, but Cupcakes didn’t say “you should leave now” but “you should plan not to stay forever”. You’re being rather pessimistic assuming that a 1+ year job hunt means you shouldn’t job hunt at all.

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      2. Artemesia*

        A quick memo to your manager highlighting preferably quantifiable contributions you have made is a reasonable request; helps him get his ducks line up to request the raise for you. BUT this request of a slide desk sounds like the way bosses cool out reasonable requests by asking for extensive documentation and proposals etc. with which they then do nothing.

        Get him that one page summary and start job hunting.

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      1. Momma Bear*

        Agreed. Do both.

        I used to work for a company that didn’t give raises, ever, unless you pushed for it. The burden was on you to prove you were worth the increase, period. I felt that it favored a certain personality over ability and didn’t stay long. Worth asking for the raise, but your best long-term option is probably an exit. At least you know your accomplishments.

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        1. Hiding from my boss*

          Ditto on personality. My firm favors young, perky, chatty, bossy. It’s shocking the do-nothings I’ve seen advance. more reserved/introverted are easy to ignore except when handing out promises of projects/opportunities to learn & grow, but not promotions.

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      2. Beth*

        Yes, this! If putting together the slide deck is easy, you might as well do it and see if it goes anywhere. But since your resume is up-to-date and your manager sounds pretty passive about advocating for you, it also makes sense to see who else might bite and what they might offer you.

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      3. AnotherOne*

        definitely.

        cuz sometimes the answer depends on your employer. my current employer is a department where the known issue is there isn’t really upward movement. if you want a promotion beyond getting senior added to your job title, you are going to need to argue for a create a job.

        our department acknowledges that it’s an issue and supports people moving to other departments or leaving our employer all together. (several people have commented its the first job they’ve had where the big boss essentially goes- if you need to leave in 3 years for the next step in your career, we totally support that.)

        and i’ve definitely gotten- i’m shocked you never left- from coworkers. (i definitely stayed for health reasons. the insurance and benefits can’t be duplicated easily.)

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    3. OrdinaryJoe*

      I personally think this is normal and a good way to advocate for yourself.

      I’ve never had to do a slide deck (not my company’s culture) but when I have to remind my boss *every year* about my annual bonus, I do send them a bullet point word document of goals, achievements, above and beyond stuff – basically a brag list. They don’t even need it for approval from higher ups, I just do it as as a way to justify my bonus and head off any conversations.

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      1. Chauncy Gardener*

        THIS.
        I always do this and it helps cement in my boss’s head all the myriad things I do that he never sees and/or completely takes for granted and/or thinks is done magically by fairies and elves.

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      2. Katie*

        I agree. Every year, I do this for my boss so she can better advocate for me. I don’t do a slide deck but I do have a very extensive list of my achievements and what I have done to benefit the company.

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      3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        Exactly! If a boss was able to remember and track everything an employee did then there wouldn’t be annual performance evals.

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      4. Abogado Avocado*

        Yes, this. I keep stats about my job — how much of this I have done since xx/xx/xxxx date, how much of that — about tasks within my job description. When I take on additional work outside my description, I keep stats about that. And, I give my boss bullet points regarding the amount of work within each task, the amount outside my job descripti0n, and any triumphs (which I define). I’ve gotten every raise I’ve sought and each has been a significant bump.

        Do not be too proud to give your boss such a list or a slide deck. It’s not that he’s not paying attention to your work; it IS that he hasn’t kept the data you know by heart or are keeping about your accomplishments. Part of managing up is giving our bosses the tools they need to advocate for us. So, do it!

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      5. Ally McBeal*

        Yep. I keep an Excel spreadsheet with all my accomplishments/high points. Any time I have a win, no matter how big or small, I throw it in there along with the names of the people who noticed the win. It makes the end of year review process so much easier and helps me make my case for promotions/raises.

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    4. Emmie*

      As someone who has managed teams, I can relate to what you’re experiencing.

      Your boss may not be fully aware of all the contributions you’re making—especially when you’re going above and beyond your official job description. It can be frustrating when your hard work doesn’t get recognized as it should. Trust me, I understand that feeling personally.

      However, your boss is ready to advocate for a raise on your behalf, but they need as much information as possible to do so effectively. They want you to actively participate in this process to give them the best chance of securing that raise for you. I encourage you to take advantage of this opportunity.

      If you’re open to it, you might want to ask your boss about what kinds of points her boss and the compensation committee (if there is one) find most persuasive when making these decisions. You’ll likely see your compensation increase when: (a) you’re taking on management duties; (b) you’re stepping into responsibilities outside your formal role (like a teapot maker also overseeing teapot audits); or (c) your responsibilities have evolved to a higher level (for instance, moving from a Level 1 to a Level 3 role).

      Why not see what they think you’re worth? It’s also good exercise for interviews too.

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      1. Wilbur*

        This is great advice. At the very worst, the slide deck is a great way to prep accomplishments for your resume. At my company the managers are given a bucket for raises and advocate for their own employees, so I know when I write my review it’s not for my boss but all the other managers.

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    5. unicorn*

      I think a slide deck is a great opportunity to let you tell your story, and make your case. It sounds like for whatever reason your boss is struggling to get the higher ups to approve moving you up. You have the information, now make it in a way that the C-suite will see it.

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    6. Hiring Mgr*

      It sounds like you aren’t happy with the company overall, but making your own case for a raise isn’t uncommon. It’s probably better in fact because you have full control and highlight as many of your wins as possible. If you left it up to your manager they might not do as good a job

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    7. Last tiger of Tasmania*

      The truth is, in life, other people don’t see you. We’d all love to live in the story where others notice your dedication and give you what you deserve without having to be asked — but life doesn’t work that way. Business doubly doesn’t. No matter where you go, you will need to justify your value and demand your worth.

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      1. ubotie*

        Yeah, seriously. We are the main characters of only our own lives–not anyone else’s. It’s just not weird to have the expectation that, if you want a raise, you’d be the one gathering evidence (i.e. records of your accomplishments) to state your case. What is weird is everyone in this thread finding that request unusual, insulting, a sign of bad management, etc.

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    8. Bonkers*

      For what it’s worth, I think promotions *do* usually require more justification after a certain level. At least in my field (science/engineering), the first couple promotion steps are mostly pro forma after a number of years, and then they become more merit based.

      It sounds to me like your manager wants to fight for you – count your blessings and take him up on the offer. It’s just a slide deck.

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      1. SansaStark*

        I had to justify mine 3 different ways to 3 different people/groups, all with my Executive Director’s blessing. Sometimes orgs just have an archaic way of doing things that are just silly, but it’s worth it in the end.

        I’m now working on promoting my direct report and something like this would help me tremendously with the higher ups. It’s not that she’s not valuable, it’s that the people with the 30,000 foot view can’t always see the contribution of a particular individual.

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      2. Hannah Lee*

        Yeah the request for the slide deck sounded like a “help me help you” request, to me.
        Not out of bounds, not unreasonable.

        If it’s easy enough to do it, why not make it easy for the boss to do what you want the boss to do? If slide packs are how your company communicates important information, the best way to get stuff done is to speak that language.

        To help with the “but I don’t wanna” part of you that thinks you shouldn’t *have* to do it, do it as part of an exercise in reviewing your accomplishments, updating them as needed and making sure your resume is highlighting the best, most punchy, impactful ones (vs ones that are there because they were there the last time you reviewed it) It’s a good opportunity to put on your “why would this person be a great hire?” hat of a hiring manager, thinking about what of value you’d be bringing to the table, not just “here’s stuff I did” Then capture that messaging – high level – in the slide pack AND your resume.

        Depending on your company culture, you might also do an *addl* slide page that has next level down details of each accomplishment – that would give your boss addl talking points if questioned by management. (we used to call them ‘pocket slides” at a place I worked – you didn’t intend to present them, but they were ready if someone asked*) And it would also serve to as interview prep for you, so you could provide details, context easily when asked.

        * the CFO at that place ALWAYS asked follow up questions. I swear his goal was to ask until he got to a question the presenter couldn’t answer, putting the presenter on the defensive. Being so prepared that he ran out of questions/time before you ran out of answers was a big, and rare, win.

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    10. Random Academic Cog*

      I’ve written my own job descriptions for raises and promotions, developed detailed accomplishment documents, spec’d out resources or support roles that would help me, even when they weren’t my direct responsibility. Anything that makes it easier for my boss to advocate for things that will benefit me is worth the effort.

      Your boss – especially if you aren’t entry-level, likely doesn’t know the details of what you do or what achievement actually looks like in some/many of those areas, especially when you do a lot that is not explicitly in your job description. Whether you “should have to” is irrelevant. If you want the raise or promotion, do what you were asked to do. That can be a lot of work for you, but it’s more work for your boss and they’re likely to skimp (or skip) as this doesn’t rate nearly as high on their priority list as it does on yours. Be thankful you have a supportive boss who’s willing to address it at all, then do everything on your end you can do to make it easy.

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    11. My Useless Two Cents*

      Ugh, as far as I’m concerned this management style should be titled “How to tell my employee I don’t see them as people and get them to do my job for me.”

      While you should advocate for yourself, managers/companies that require you “prove” you deserve a raise are just showing they don’t value their employees. The only caveat is employee’s who constantly try and game the system, in which case it’s more of an individual performance issue that management needs to deal with.

      Sorry OP, the resume update/send out sounds like the best option.

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      1. TechWorker*

        This is a super adversarial take – read the other replies here – it’s not actually that weird and is an opportunity in some ways.

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        1. ubotie*

          I agree with TechWorker. I don’t know where everyone else has been working that the idea of, “I would like a raise therefore, I must present my case myself” is causing such a kerfluffle. Specifically making that case via PowerPoint isn’t necessarily something I’ve come across but like, horses for courses, you know? Some companies really like PowerPoint slides.

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      2. ThatGirl*

        Yeah this isn’t very helpful. My direct manager is not super up on what I do day to day and has a lot on her plate – and she would definitely need some kind of documentation to justify a promotion. In fact I may need to do something to this effect for next year. It’s just the nature of the job – my work is assigned by project managers and my direct manager lives two states away.

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        1. Landry*

          My boss has often asked me for documentation to help him when he’s talking to higher ups about raises for me, hiring to expand the team or getting us more resources. Not a slide desk, per se, but more like spreadsheets and bullet points. He’s managing a lot of people and has a lot of tasks on his plate, so I don’t find it offensive. It would be unreasonable for him to know every single project I was working on every single day because of the nature of our work and company. But, the occasional synopses are good.

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    12. Friday Person*

      I haven’t made a slide deck, but I have drafted a memo along similar lines, and I know others who have (successfully) done so. If your boss is the least bit sincere about fighting for this, you want to give them the best ammo possible, and nobody else is as well equipped to provide that as you are.

      That said, no reason this can’t be done contiguously with trying to find something less frustrating externally.

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      1. allx*

        My industry is law, and once I learned to write an end-of-year compensation memo (i.e. Annual Review), my income went up. It is easy to believe that our partners and bosses and management see our contributions. But they don’t. Or they conveniently forget. Or they go back on thier promises. Seriously, when there is money to divide, you have to be your own best advocate. Don’t hedge or down-play. Your product should read like you walk on water (and from what you wrote, it sounds like you have the work accomplishments to back up such claims).

        I am likely out of step with today’s work norms, but to me a slide deck seems too casual and a bit too “9th grade presentation-y” for the task. I like the official-ness of an internal memo directed to your boss. You know your industry best, of course, so do whatever format is the norm for serious business decisions in your workplace, because money is always a serious issue. It sucks to have to say “look at me, I did these things harder and better than everyone else” but it is absolutely necessary. Frankly, if I worked as hard as you seem to, I would submit an Annual Summary highlighting your accomplishments of the preceding 12 months.

        Reply ↓
        1. Hannah Lee*

          “I am likely out of step with today’s work norms, but to me a slide deck seems too casual and a bit too “9th grade presentation-y” for the task”

          I don’t think it’s a “today’s work norms” thing, so much as it is a “culture of the place” thing. The slide deck might be something the boss intends to walk upper management through when requesting the promotion for LW. ie the *boss* isn’t the audience for this, it’s the chain of command above the boss that it’s really aimed at.

          I’ve worked places where that was the norm … it may not literally be projected on screen, it could be printed as a visual aid when talking through the points, or emailed as back up to a conversation. IME there are some busy execs that won’t bother reading a wall of text memo, but will gladly absorb info, even detailed info, if it’s accompanied by visual aids with bullet points, high level diagrams, etc.

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        2. ThatGirl*

          Slide decks are all the rage in my company and we have an official company template. While I wouldn’t necessarily need to put one together for a promotion, it wouldn’t be seen as weird, either. I consider them kinda formal, actually.

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    13. Parenthesis Guy*

      It’s not normal, but it’s a great idea.

      Your boss knows what you do. Your grand-boss probably has some clue. Other people don’t. They just don’t know what you do. Telling you to explain your accomplishments in an easy to understand way only makes sense. If your boss doesn’t have the power to give you a raise, and he may not, this is a great way for him to make a case.

      In general, the higher you get, the harder it is to get a promotion. At some point, there just aren’t enough spots for people that deserve them. It sounds like you’ve gotten to that point. It sounds like you’ve trained people that came in at entry-level, got a promotion to mid-level and then left. But if you’re senior-level and still outrank them then it’s not so relevant that they’re getting promotions and you’re not.

      The other thing is that you’re talking about how you’ve done a lot to help people. But if you are higher ranking then them, then that makes sense you’d be asked to do that. It sounds to me like there’s your boss, there’s you and then there are a number of other people that are lower ranking than you. Some are one rank lower, others two ranks lower, entry-level people that are three ranks lower. But mostly everyone is lower. And some people might move from three ranks lower to two ranks lower, but they’re not getting to your rank.

      By all means, if you’re unhappy where you are, then you should look elsewhere or figure out how to get where you want to go. But this doesn’t seem unreasonable to me.

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    14. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      You’re asking for a raise, but not willing to spend a couple hours pulling together a case for it? It’s clear that this is a decision made above your boss’s level – so you expect them to remember everything you’ve done and put the case together for you? It’s a small ask for a potentially big benefit, what’s the downside?

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      1. Busy Middle Manager*

        Agreed. When I was a manager, people didn’t want to be micromanaged but would also want me to know what they did and thought all day, but only when it was something good. Not when they wasted a day or made a mistake :-/.

        During the last 15 of 20 years I worked for other people, I always had a running list of accomplishments and projects going on that I could quickly jot done, if requested. I had to do it a few times, not for a raise, but to justify hiring more people.

        OP, is the issue that you have a routine job with no real accomplishments that is severely underpaid? If you’re paid market rate and proverbially “push paper” and literally have no accomplishments, I’d focus on getting some, in order to justify the raise.

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    15. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I’ve never heard of doing a slide show, but I think it’s pretty common to do something to show your achievements. After all your boss or your grand boss is not going to be able to keep track of everything every employee does. It’s typically up to the individual to showcase their work.

      Think of it as if you were applying for a new position in your company. They wouldn’t just give it to you. You would have to apply and update your resume, etc to show the work you’ve done at the current job.

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    16. HR Exec Popping In*

      Should you HAVE to do this? No, but you are the one asking for a promotion in place. Your manager didn’t immediately shut that down. They are giving you a chance to help them advocate for you. I recommend taking it at face value and help your manager do just that.

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    17. June First*

      I feel this.
      My boss kept telling me to advocate for myself if I wanted a raise. Boss and I worked closely together for years, so Boss was aware of everything I was doing. I put together a memo listing accomplishments, charting where my pay was with industry averages, etc. Boss said they were proud of me (like I was a student) and approved the raise. Lo and behold, those accomplishments translated well into a resume, so when someone sent me a job posting I was ready to jump on it. There were plenty of other reasons I was ready to leave.
      Boss was stunned when I submitted my notice.

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    18. CzechMate*

      So, it’s obnoxious, but depending on your workplace, it could be that your boss wants something concrete that they can present at, say, a board or funding meeting to advocate for why you should get more money. And the person who will have the hard numbers and most accurate info about your deliverables is you.

      You mention you’re a Euro global corp. Are you based in Europe? In the US, this wouldn’t be unfathomably weird, although I could definitely see that this would be unusual at a European workplace.

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    19. Katie*

      It will only hurt you if you don’t do it. Your boss is willing to go to bat for you but just needs the right info to do it. It’s really common for it to be your own responsibility to provide achievements (slideshow, no but that doesn’t sound like your problem.

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      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        Yeah, I feel like the manager and the employee should co-create this. The employee can make sure the manager has all the details about what they’ve done, and the manager can make sure the language and framing are what will appeal most to the decision-makers.

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      2. Al*

        Yup. At my company it’s the direct manager who puts the justification together. I’ve done this for many people, and managers will share text with each other from successful promotion bids.

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    21. Sandi*

      In some places it is normal. My experience with engineering is that it’s normal to do a brag sheet for promotions, and Bonkers said the same. In some places it is normal. My experience with engineering is that it’s normal to do a brag sheet for promotions, and Bonkers said the same.

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    23. RagingADHD*

      This sounds to me like your manager wants to make sure they don’t miss anything when they advocate for your raise to their superiors.

      Of course you can always send out your resume, and if you are that frustrated and unhappy I’m surprised you haven’t done that already. But why not also do a slide deck to self-advocate in house (particularly since you say it isn’t onerous)? I mean, you *want* more money, right?

      I’d be happy to make a short, non-onerous slide deck for an extra $50 on the side, much less an ongoing raise.

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      1. RagingADHD*

        Oh, one thing I just thought of – in my company (and to some extent in my industry) everyone from the CEO on down has to do an annual written self-evaluation that lists accomplishments, progress on long-term goals, and shows how the company mission and values were furthered / upheld; and receive a written evaluation on the same measures from their supervisor (for the CEO, it’s the Board of Directors).

        One of the purposes is to provide proof that raises are being tied to performance, and that merit raises are being provided equitably to people who perform at a similar level, rather than being handed out due to mood, favoritism, or having a certain manager. If you aren’t doing annual self-evals where you report your accomplishments, requiring some kind of documentation like this slide deck could actually be a good governance practice.

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    24. ubotie*

      I don’t know how about a slide deck specifically but advocating for yourself in a “here’s what I’ve done” way when asking for a raise is VERY normal. You know best what you’ve been doing so it makes the most sense that YOU’D be the one to argue your case for a raise. And that you’d have concrete examples for why you should get that raise–increased sales, lowered costs, increased productivity, brought in new clients, blah blah blah.
      Yeah you can also parlay all that information into a job search but in terms of, “is it weird that my boss told ME to do all this when *I* asked them about MY raise????” then the answer is, “no it’s not weird. Who else would be doing this? It’s YOUR raise that YOU want. YOU are your best advocate.”

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    25. Qwerty*

      Sounds like you could have made the slide deck in the time it took to post this?

      Advocating for yourself is fairly normal, especially for people who get promoted or merit-based raises. This is your career to manage, not your boss’s. The higher someone is, the harder it is to get them a promotion especially at big corporations, so why should your boss go jump through a bunch of hoops and spend his political capital on this if you aren’t willing to make a quick slide deck to help?

      I’m confused why you are comparing your promotions to the ones entry level people received. Are you saying they were promoted from entry level to senior contributor while you are stuck in a mid level position? Or that they went from entry level to mid while you’ve been in senior contributor the whole time. If the latter – that’s really normal. There are more levels early in someone’s career and then things kinda plateau when we hit senior roles.

      So, cut up what you have here and what’s in your resume to make your slide deck so your boss is armed with information, it should take you 5min since you already have all the info. Maybe also start job hunting, because it sounds like you hate this place.

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    26. The teapots are on fire*

      Do both! But one way to look at this is that your manager wants to go to bat for you. Hand him the bat!

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    27. Lady Danbury*

      Very normal. My boss came to me back in December and told me that he wanted me to be considered for a raise, so he asked me to draft an email similar to the slide deck you’ve been asked to supply. I basically drafted his case for him (accomplishments/increased responsibility, market comparators, proposed range of salary increase) and received the raise in my next paycheck. Basically you’re drafting the argument for them to allow them to advocate for your raise, just as you would if you had initiated the raise discussion, because they will probably need to obtain approval from someone higher up in the chain. I used Alison’s extensive advice on how to ask for a raise to justify mine.

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    28. Quinalla*

      This is not unusual, though I get that it is frustrating. You often have to tell your boss the extent of what you are doing, they probably know a lot of it, but they likely do NOT know everything your are doing or the important details. Not everyone would make it formalized, but you do have to communicate what you are doing to your boss in every job, that is very normal. And some companies are very into making a deck for everything, so if that is your company (or boss) this could be very normal.

      Feel free to also send out resumes, its a good thing to do every so often regardless, but I don’t think this is that out there.

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    29. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

      What does he mean by a slide deck?

      Is he asking for illustrations and spreadsheets, or a half-dozen slides with bulleted lists of accomplishments in different areas? If he hasn’t made that clear, I’d ask him.

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      1. Retired MT*

        Do both. It isn’t obvious from your letter, but I wonder if you are so good at your current job, they don’t want to promote you if they would have to replace you.

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    30. You want stories, I got stories*

      Years ago I had a terrible manager, but she taught me one important thing. We were doing my annual review and I had rated myself a 4. She asked, “so what did you do that feels you are a 4?” I mean, I did excellent work, anyone who knew my work, knew I did a great job, but I didn’t have anything concrete. I couldn’t cite the specific time I did great work for a customer. So she says, “You are a 3.”
      Next year you can be sure, I had a full file of plenty of examples of everything I did that went above and beyond and I got that 4.
      What I realized, many managers don’t pay attention to how awesome of an employee you are. They know you aren’t doing bad work, but they don’t know the full extent of your great work. So yes, write up the presentation, so they can see everything you do that warrants a raise.

      Reply ↓
  2. Unstable marshmallow*

    Looking for advice on applying to a masters program in the UK 6 years after my last degree, which was also a masters. I’m in the US. I’m specifically worried about references. The application guidelines use the following language:

    “If you have studied in the last five years, then you should include a referee who is an academic familiar with your work. If you are currently or have been recently employed, then the second referee should be your current/recent employer. If you have not been recently employed, then the second referee should be another academic.”

    Maybe I’m overthinking this, but they don’t seem to expect applications from anyone who has NOT studied in the last five years. Is it just supposed to be obvious that those applicants are to submit two professional references, or is it an unspoken assumption that this program is only for recent graduates? Is that A Thing for UK programs in general? There’s nothing on the website explicitly stating that, though.

    I have an academic reference in mind, but since it’s been more than 5 years, I’m nervous that it would hold less weight. The bigger question is whether at least one professional reference has to be a current supervisor. I know it’s perfectly acceptable not to offer one’s current supervisor as a reference for -job- applications, due to the potential negative effects on professional development and rapport. I have the same concern here – I don’t want my supervisor to know I have one foot out the door; if I don’t get into any programs, I’m worried she/my organization will be wary about investing in me. But it looks like there’s less flexibility on that front for applications to academic programs. Can anyone weigh in, either for US or UK programs? If it helps, I’m looking health policy programs at schools of public health.

    I would feel a bit silly emailing the program directors for clarification on either question – I don’t want them to look at my application and remember me as “that one American who needed us to explain our requirements as if she were five years old.” Turning to the commentariat in desperation. TIA!

    Reply ↓
    1. UKAAM*

      Hello! I am in the UK, and can hopefully help with this
      It is certainly more common in the UK than in the USA for Masters degrees to happen quickly after undergraduate, but it still happens tons and people reviewing your application will not be unfamiliar with this! Your professional reference doesn’t have to be your current supervisor – ideally you have a professional reference that can speak to your skills and abilities, and then an academic reference who can speak to your interest in this academic area and your research abilities.
      Are you applying for a taught or a research masters?

      Reply ↓
      1. Unstable marshmallow*

        It’s a taught masters!

        Thank you so much for the reassurance re: references. I’ve been putting off even starting the application because my brain has been going in circles over that part of it.

        Reply ↓
        1. UKAAM*

          Good luck! I would reccomend including your academic reference, even an old one, because it is helpful to show academic interest and skills, even if a while ago, but would echo others saying please don’t be afraid of asking admissions questions. They’ll be able to help!

          An old academic reference will hurt you less in a taught masters – it would be an issue in a research masters, but in a taught masters you will predominantly be in the classroom and won’t be expected to be quite so experienced from an Academia perspective.

          Reply ↓
    2. Teapot Wrangler*

      I’m in the UK. I think it would be really normal to email them and ask whether they would prefer two more recent workplace references or to include one older academic reference. They shouldn’t be surprised at not seeing your most recent supervisor on there. I would just add two workplace references and then add a line somewhere in the (I’m sure long) application mentioning that you do have academic references from your previous MA but didn’t include them as they are X years old but either would be very normal, I think.

      Reply ↓
    3. Jessica*

      Sorry to give a different answer than the other commentators, but I was just on a committee reviewing applications to our MA program in the US, and it definitely was a negative mark to not have an academic reference. I do think our application explicitly stated we wanted one, so part of it was that the student wasn’t following instructions. But still — succeeding in a workplace is very different from succeeding in a classroom, and we wanted evidence that other people thought the applicant would be successful in the classroom.

      Reply ↓
    4. bibliotecaria*

      I work in UK higher education and my advice would be to email the admissions team! They will be used to fielding much wackier questions than yours, and if the query does need to be passed on to the programme directors, they’ll be able to do that. It is very much their job to help people apply to programmes and they will not think you are being silly. If it’s a vocational PGT programme, it might be more common for applicants to have taken a break from academia and gained significant professional experience rather than coming direct from undergrad – but take that speculation with the pinch of salt it deserves! Agreed with UKAAM that you almost certainly don’t need your current supervisor to act as reference, as long as it’s somebody who can reasonably speak to your abilities.

      Reply ↓
    5. persephone*

      I’m in the U.K. and applied for my Masters degree 15 years after graduating from my previous degree. It’s totally normal here to go straight from undergrad to post-grad, but also totally normal to do what I did and have a long gap in the middle working in industry and then return to do a Masters as a mature student. I suspect how they’ve worded it is just a clunky way of saying that they’re interested in both academic and work references. In my own example, I didn’t provide an academic reference because 15 years felt too long for that to be relevant (or for anyone at my alma mater to remember me!). However for you, the difference between the stated 5 years and the actual 6 years is so slim that I’d be inclined to use the academic reference as the first reference. However for sure contact the admissions team at the relevant university/ies to clarify if you’d prefer: they will be used to fielding this kind of query. For the second question around work references and using a current vs previous employer, if you have a relevant previous supervisor that you can use I doubt they will quibble at that. When I applied, my current workplace wasn’t at all relevant to the field I wanted to study so I used the employer I had left 12 months previously, which had direct relevance to the programme, as my reference and there were no issues with that.

      Reply ↓
    6. Beth**

      Possibly unhelpful, but my sense is that many UK universities will take any marginally qualified overseas applicant for a taught masters. These courses are cash cows for them at a time finances are stretched.

      All of which is to say that you are probably overthinking this. But the suggestion to contact the admissions department is a reasonable one.

      Reply ↓
  3. tr-6 woundwort*

    Hey, me again! I posted here a while back—essentially, I worked for 5 years under a great manager who was incredibly supportive and strategic. But 3 months ago, my function was reshuffled under a different boss. Despite my efforts to stay positive, it’s been a disaster. There was no transition plan, and my new boss was constantly MIA and no-showing meetings due to major infrastructure issues. I was left handling everything solo during the most intense reporting cycles of the year, working nights and weekends.

    I’m (not openly) neurodivergent and thrived under my old boss’s structured management style. That structure was ripped away overnight, right when things were the most chaotic, and I hit full burnout. I have mitigated this a bit by asking my old boss to mentor me while professionally alluding to some of the problems, but I haven’t been clear about how much of a toll it’s taken on me. Since then, infrastructure issues have settled down, and my new boss is finally around more. They’ve promised to realign the team so I’d get support from three additional people and outlined a path to a promotion. But… they predictably no-showed the team meeting where they were supposed to explain all this.

    My role is expected to gain prominence with wider company changes, so there’s definitely growth potential here. But I’ve completely lost interest in the work. I’ve been thinking a lot about moving to my old boss’s team. Their work is strategic and interesting, with clear leadership direction. It would let me grow into a specialist role and gain new skills. I’ve considered casually raising this in my year-end review with my old boss, but I’m conflicted. There’s real potential in my current role, but the lack of structure is crushing me.

    The timing feels awkward—there’s no current opening on my old boss’s team, and mentioning this could disrupt my current team dynamic. Still, stability and structure feel more important to me right now than the high visibility or promotion track I’ve been offered.
    Any advice on how to approach this?

    Reply ↓
    1. Double A*

      It seems like mentioning it to you old boss first would be a smarter first move. Mentioning it to your new boss as wishful thinking seems like it could cause you the same problems as if you told them you’re job hunting generally.

      Can you take some time off? Like, just fully take a week or even better two off? I know you’ll probably feel bad for leaving other people to cover, but you were left in the lurch by other people’s lack of planning (no transition plan) and you picked up the slack. Now it’s time for someone else to do that for you. If you have time off available, take it.

      You could even talk to your doctor about getting a note and requesting this time as FMLA. Burnout is a real health issue and you need real time to recover from it. You could also access your company’s EAP if you have one and talk through this with a therapist.

      You just still sound very elevated emotionally about this and that’s not a great place to be making decisions. So my suggestions are about helping you calm your nervous system down first.

      Reply ↓
      1. tr-6 woundwort*

        Yes – I’d be just mentioning this to my old boss as I had similar thoughts about how it could be perceived. My concern would be when it eventually does get back to my new boss as part of team planning, but I think that’s an issue I can address further down the road.

        I’ve scheduled to take a week off very soon, so I’ll definitely be taking that time to recover and get my head in a better place, and I do have regular therapy. I definitely do need to let things settle a bit – I don’t typically get this affected by work normally, so this has been a surprise for me as well.

        Reply ↓
    2. Sandi*

      It sounds like there is so little structure in the new role that you can’t really grow well, so the growth potential seems unlikely to happen. If it were me, I’d mention to old boss that I’m still interested in their work and might want to move, so could they let me know if a position opens up? Of if those are posted openly and reliably then don’t mention it and wait for the posting. It doesn’t sound like things with new boss are going to improve.

      Reply ↓
      1. WellRed*

        I agree. If you are failing and flailing in the current role due to structural stuff and absent management, I don’t see how you have growth potential there.

        Reply ↓
        1. tr-6 woundwort*

          I’m not quite at the failure point yet – I’ve been meeting all my deadlines, but it’s definitely not sustainable. Some things are improving and there’s been a slight lull, but I’m not out of the woods yet. I think there is a line I could walk to grow in the role, but I think I need recovery time if I want to pursue it.

          We generally don’t circulate internal job postings in the team, so I would have to express interest myself.

          Reply ↓
    3. NothingIsLittle*

      I’m also neurodivergent and accidentally took a role with almost no oversight and burned out and failed out hard. As a result, I’ve been struggling for a long time to bounce back from both feeling so unsupported and losing faith in my abilities. It significantly reduced my mental and physical health to spend years trying to make it work in a job that wasn’t suited to me.

      I’m not sure what point in your career you are and how many bosses you’ve worked under to experience different management styles, but if you know you work better with more structure, don’t knee-cap yourself struggling to make it work in a job you’re not going to get that in. Your new boss has proven to you that providing that structure is not a priority. Are you willing/able to pursue a different company entirely? If your old boss doesn’t have a spot for you, another company might have a better fit open.

      Reply ↓
      1. tr-6 woundwort*

        Hey, I’m really sorry that happened to you. I hope you’re doing better and wish you the best with your recovery.

        Thank you for the advice – I am fairly early in my career and I’ve only just now gotten enough data points to realize what does and doesn’t work for me. Leaving the company is on the table but I’d like to explore other options first, as I do otherwise like the team & benefits. So in addition to seeking this other position, I will also see if I can delegate to others or spread out my responsibilities, etc.

        Reply ↓
  4. Student*

    How bad would it look if I started applying for other jobs?

    Last year I returned to the workforce as a student in a new field. I know from reading this blog that I need to stay at my job for at least a year to reestablish my work history, and the timing lines up with when I’ll qualify for the entry-level professional position.

    The problem is I’m bored out of my mind. They hired a third student and there isn’t enough work to go around. For the two months we were “short staffed” I was the perfect level of busy; I had ownership of my job and felt competent. Now I come into work with nothing on my to-do list and I feel like we’re competing for tasks. The managers are aware that we don’t have enough to do but haven’t been successful in getting staff to delegate to us.

    We’re only a few weeks into the semester and I have classes and extracurriculars, so I don’t really want a full-time job right now. But I feel drained and frustrated. I’m considering applying for a paraprofessional position, but worried it would look bad that I’ve only been at my job for 7 months.

    Reply ↓
    1. Ann O'Nemity*

      Can you talk to your manager about what you can do during downtime? Could you work on homework when there is literally nothing else to do?

      Reply ↓
    2. Stuart Foote*

      I really don’t think it matters that much. Remember these jobs you are applying for want to find good people, and while your current job tenure might get you rejected by some I’m sure others would be interested. Worst case you apply and don’t get the job.

      I think for entry level jobs, employers are aware they may not be ideal and expect a certain amount of churn.

      Reply ↓
    3. Unstable marshmallow*

      Who are you worried about “looking bad” to? The hiring team at the paraprofessional job, or future jobs down the line?

      If it’s the paraprofessional job you’re worried about, I would apply anyway. You won’t end up any worse off if they say no. If you’re thinking ahead, you’ll be better off prioritizing skills/accomplishments over staying in one place for the “acceptable” amount of time. It doesn’t seem like you have much opportunity to rack up either of those things here. If you stay at this place for a year but don’t have much to add to your resume bullets, are you really better off than if you cut your losses and applied to a job where you can actually grow? Hopefully you’ll also stay longer at a more interesting job, and your 7-month stint at this place won’t be much more than a blip.

      Reply ↓
    4. Seashell*

      Considering that you’re currently a student, I don’t know if a brief stint is going to matter that much. Aside from your current situation, a student’s schedule could change and require them to change jobs, which wouldn’t make them flaky.

      I would start applying now. Explaining in a cover letter that your current job doesn’t have anything for you to do would make sense as to why you would want to change. Also, by the time you actually get hired and start somewhere, you could be in the current job for a year or close to it.

      Reply ↓
    5. Samwise*

      There’s a difference between part-time jobs you take while you’re a student, and the full time jobs you want after you have your degree.

      If you have an opportunity for a better part-time job, apply for it. Especially if it is related to the field you want to go into. If you get an offer, take it if it’s acceptable in terms of hours, pay, work tasks, etc. (Just like with any job)

      Reply ↓
    6. JSPA*

      I have always understood student jobs to be stepping stones, with no requirement to stay for a certain length of time, as there would be for non-student jobs, when you’re ready to enter the”regular” workforce.

      Reply ↓
      1. Helewise*

        I agree, although when I’ve interviewed recent grads it does give me pause if they ONLY have short stints with no repeats. But even then it’s not necessarily a dealbreaker if they look like an otherwise good candidate.

        Reply ↓
    7. EA*

      If you’re a student I wouldn’t worry about it. You can always use the excuse that you had to change jobs because of classes or other student-related responsibilities. Managers just don’t want to hire serial job hoppers – but if you have a legitimate reason why you’d change, I think you’re fine to look for something more interesting. Also, you might not get much to put on your CV at this current job if it’s that boring!

      Reply ↓
      1. TechWorker*

        Yea, plus of all the reasons that will put off an employer ‘I moved jobs because there wasn’t enough work’ is not one…

        Reply ↓
    8. David*

      From what I’ve seen, this blog has pretty consistently made the point that you *don’t* need to stay for a year to establish work history. I mean, think of all the times someone has written in about feeling stuck in a toxic workplace because they thought they needed to stay for a year, and Alison has said no, you don’t, you can get out now. It’s only a pattern of multiple short stays that becomes a problem.

      Not that your job is toxic, Student (at least not based on what you told us), but I would think the point still applies?

      Reply ↓
    9. Student*

      Thanks for the feedback, everyone! As a career changer who was out of the workforce for many years, I’m more concerned with perception than I would have been as a traditional college-age student. I just want my new career to get off on a good foot.

      Reply ↓
  5. JJ*

    I was in the running for 2 jobs. Job A was more demanding but paid better and had better benefits. Job B was lower paying with worse benefits but better work-life balance. I got an offer for Job B, and because of the timing of the process (I was in close to the final rounds, but still far from a decision from Job A), I accepted Job B. While I was curious what would happen with Job A, I didn’t want to screw them over, so I warmly withdrew, citing timing and expressing desire to work together in the future. The Job A Hiring Manager responded very warmly, that I was a great candidate and he was sorry this didn’t work out, and he would love to keep in touch.

    My question: It’s a small industry, and I still might like to work at Job A someday. Is it weird to ask Job A hiring manager to coffee? If so, what is the best way to maintain warm relationships with Job A to potentially position myself to apply there again in 2-3 years?

    Reply ↓
    1. Cupcakes are awesome*

      I think if you just recently withdrew then there is no reason to ask this person to coffee. I feel like they would wonder what the reason would be since you are not looking to work with them, and might see it as a waste of their time. I would connect with them on LinkedIn and any other professional platform and just keep n touch that way. If there are professional networking opportunities that you know they participate in, that’s also an option for you to stay in their universe.

      Reply ↓
    2. Double A*

      I think at this point responding in kind to his message about keeping in touch is where you leave it. If you start job hunting again, you could always find that email and reply to it again to remind him of the context. I wouldn’t ask for a coffee meet up for like… a year or closer to when you might actually do something actionable with the connection.

      Reply ↓
    3. HR Exec Popping In*

      I think it is a great idea. Just frame it as networking. There are plenty of candidates I’ve stayed in light touch with over the years as I’ve valued their experience, like to maintain a network and you never know when the opportunity to recruit them might come up.

      Reply ↓
  6. CherryBlossom*

    How do I adddress a job in which I truly did nothing?

    I was brought on as a temp for a specific project, but ended up doing far less than I was told to expect. (I made a few powerpoints and called vendors, but everything had pre-approved templates, so I had no input at all.)

    The project wrapped a month ago, and I’m still here. I’ve spoken to my manager multiple times about this, and most recently asked “I really haven’t been doing anything the past few weeks, does it still make sense for you to keep me on for the rest of my contract?” She said it does, since it’s good to have an extra set of hands around, just in case. In case of what, who knows.

    I still feel I should put it on my resume, since it’s the highest job title I’ve had, at a prestigious company, but am struggling with how. Normally I’m good at turning admin tasks into accomplishments, but there were no tasks! The most I’ve done in the past month is pick up a singluar coffee order, and I wasn’t even trusted to make the order, just go collect it!

    So my question is: How do I list a job on my resume that has an impressive job title, but nothing of substance?

    Reply ↓
    1. Stuart Foote*

      I would list the tasks you were hired to do, and hope that they don’t drill into them too much in the interview. Even if you aren’t doing much, your expertise is still on hand if needed.

      Reply ↓
    2. Cupcakes are awesome*

      Use the job description as the tasks- did they tell you what the job entailed when they hired you or give you a job description? I definitely would not leave it off your resume since you said it was a higher title.
      Also, is it possible to ask co-workers if they need help with anything?

      Reply ↓
      1. CherryBlossom*

        The job description I was given was much more in-depth and high responsibility than what I ended up doing, but it’s not entirely unrelated. I could definitely try to finagle something from that.

        As for asking my coworkers, my manager is the only one with the authority to give me tasks and my coworkers are very reluctant to go against that. This company is VERY bureaucratic, so I’m sure that ties into why I’m so limited in my role.

        Reply ↓
        1. Hannah Lee*

          “This company is VERY bureaucratic, so I’m sure that ties into why I’m so limited in my role.”

          It may also tie into why they want to keep you, even if they are not fully using your manpower/abilities.

          In some bureaucratic workplaces, where it takes forever to get staffing approved, once you’ve got headcount, FTEs you do not give them up if there is a temporary slowdown, because you know it will take way to long to get approval to staff up again when things cycle back up to busy. Your boss may know the cycle of workload is due to ramp up soon, hence their decision to not end your assignment.

          Reply ↓
    3. Frankie*

      I would use Chatgpt, input what you’ve done and ask it to spin these tasks as accomplishments for your resume, then start looking

      Reply ↓
    4. NothingIsLittle*

      I’m worried that if in an interview they asked about the position at all, you’d come out looking significantly worse to have done nothing under the title than to leave it off your resume entirely. Can you come up with a project to keep yourself busy even if they don’t use it? Then you could credibly site how you used your time. Can you make, edit, or copy edit a job guide for any of the tasks they intended you to do? Can you review the templates they ask you to use and suggest edits, even if they won’t use them?

      Reply ↓
    5. Hyaline*

      I guess you’re there to “support” the rest of the team–I think as long as that kind of description isn’t detrimental to your goals, “provide support for the Bobcat Tracking Team” isn’t inaccurate even if they didn’t have you actually tracking bobcats. If it came up in an interview, you could at that point share what you DID do and acknowledge that you were mostly there for additional support and backfilling–and pivot to, perhaps, saying you’re looking forward to a more dynamic and quick-paced role.

      Reply ↓
  7. Bearcat*

    Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who answered my question last week about negotiating a raise for an internal promotion! It was all super helpful and I appreciated the caution as well, because it helped me decide to keep it very light and easy. I ended up negotiating up a little from what they offered, but said if the number wasn’t possible I was still thrilled to accept. And I got it! :) thank you all again!

    Reply ↓
  8. Tradd*

    I have to vent. John, my one direct report , is WFH this week (we had a fight to get HR to approve it) due to an injury that makes driving painful. Anyway, he is so technologically inept sometimes I’m just amazed. He had two documents in one pdf that had to be uploaded separately to CBP’s system. He sent them to me and asked me to print them, scan them separately, and send back to him. I told him he just needed to use print to pdf for each one separately and then he could submit. Face palm. We’re not paperless due to factors out of my control. We have to print docs for files, but I print the bare minimum. I make frequent use of a tool to merge separate docs into one pdf. If he has to scan documents, John would be much happier to print everything out and then scan it in. I moved the daily duty statements to paperless (these are allowed to be paperless, it’s customs clearance files that need to be paper) probably close to two years ago. John whines like a school girl (and he’s in his 50s, near my age!) when I’m out as he has to do it paperless. He is very resistant to learning new things in our software or just new ways of doing stuff that aren’t paper-based. To give you an idea, he once told me if he was in charge of family finances, he would still be writing checks and getting bills in the mail. I’m all paperless in my personal life so all the paper at work drives me bats.

    I’m sure many of you have similar stories of technological ineptitude. Share them so we can collectively shake our heads!

    Reply ↓
    1. Alisaurus*

      I was once trained on how to do a job by someone who had no idea how to copy/paste. She tried to show me how to do data entry by pulling one document up, moving the window to half of the screen, then pulling the system software up on the other half of the screen and typing the information in. I asked why we couldn’t just copy/paste, and I thought I’d short-circuited her thinking for half a minute. She then shook her head and said I could do it how I wanted once I took over, but this was how she’d always done it and proceeded to continue the process the long way.

      Reply ↓
      1. Csethiro Ceredin*

        Same! Except I was training her, and when I did ctrl>C and ctrl>V she actually yelled HOW DID YOU DO THAT? I showed her, and asked if she prefers to highlight and copy with the mouse… blank stare. So I showed her that too. She got really upset that nobody had ever told her that was possible before. She hadn’t worked with us up to then so I have no idea why but suspect people assumed she knew.

        But then when I went by her desk to ask her a question she was just retyping everything. I emailed her the instructions for copy and paste but as far as I know she never used it again. I still don’t know what all that was about.

        Reply ↓
        1. Wildbow*

          I did volunteer work in a hospital department that was staffed with people where the spring chicken was 60. I had the exact same ctrl-x, ctrl-v experience with a relative who worked there. I really do think it comes down to how we hold information in our heads. When you don’t have the scaffolding to work with when it comes to something like computers, you learn something new, try it, maybe it works, but then you try it again, and it fails, and that failure is scary enough and hard enough to get to grips with that you abandon the new thing entirely.

          So much of learning is knowing how to frame, hold, and work with information. I honestly ran into something similar with math, where my teachers badly failed me & my classmates for several of our foundational years, and I felt that lack of scaffolding.

          As another anecdote, there was a person in that department was (is?) world-renowned in her field, collected PHDs as a hobby, tons of post-doctoral work, traveled the world to establish clinics, and… balked at how to turn a computer on. I remember talking to my relative, who was confused because this person had just gotten a new degree, but how could she do that in this day and age (then ~2012) when she couldn’t even use a word processor?

          Reply ↓
      2. OldHat*

        She became my temp a couple years ago. Things like Copy/Paste broke her brain for at least a hour. Never mind Ctrl+F or links to find information in resources.

        Reply ↓
    2. H.Regalis*

      I don’t know if that’s ineptness so much as he doesn’t want to learn how to do it and is going to whine and act helpless enough that someone else will do it for him.

      I’ve worked with plenty of people who weren’t tech-savvy, but were able to follow written instructions, ask questions when they weren’t sure, and weren’t whiny babies about learning new things. They all managed to pick things up just fine.

      Reply ↓
      2. Inkognyto*

        My mother taught herself how to do email, billing etc on the computer.

        “Oh there’s help files” and off she went using instant messages etc.

        This was a stay at home mother who raised the kids during the era of computers starting to be around, but hardly used them until I was grown.

        It’s about attitude, if they don’t want to learn they will not.

        Reply ↓
    3. Ashley*

      We are paperless but the number of reports I get that are printed, scanned and then emailed to me is high. What is worse they won’t just send them as an excel file like I need so then I get to manually input the data.

      Reply ↓
      1. JustCuz*

        Omg this would be a hill I would die on for sure. Run it right up to the CEO I don’t even care how busy she is haha ( don’ actually do this)

        Reply ↓
        1. Hannah Lee*

          At the very least you can advocate for a higher Adobe (or pdf maker) license so you get the “export to excel/word/text” options so you can convert if needed, and the “edit pdf” option so you can grab large blocks of text if the export functions won’t work”

          Those export functions aren’t perfect, you really have to look at the output to make sure wonky text recognition, column alignment etc didn’t mess up the output, but they can save SO much time, effort over retyping.

          Reply ↓
      2. Veruca Salt*

        Just an idea of a method that might come in handy. Last week, I had to convert three years’ worth of monthly bank statements into General Ledger format. I redacted sensitive information from the bank statements, uploaded them to ChatGPT, instructed it to convert them into Excel and then delete the files (happens automatically, but as an added layer of protection). After making a few tweaks, it was good to go.

        These were clean PDFs, so I’m not sure what would happen with unoptimized scans, but I’m about to try. I spend way too much of my time manually entering data into Excel.

        Reply ↓
    4. Cabbagepants*

      I worked with someone who, when receiving a link to a file from a shared drive, would always save a copy to her desktop (usually renamed as “project” or “file” or similar) and then only ever use that version.

      Reply ↓
      1. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

        Ditto. I worked with a guy who always claimed he “couldn’t find” or “didn’t have access to” the shared drive, so he had to work on his computer.

        Needless to say, when everything is supposed to be on a shared drive and one person isn’t updating, version control became a nightmare.

        Reply ↓
        2. Momma Bear*

          I’m dealing with this now and it’s gotten to the point that the person is going to be cut out of the process if they do it again.

          Reply ↓
          1. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

            Do it! The one time my guy asked me, personally, to download and send him a file because he “didn’t have shared drive access” I treated it as computer failure, pushed an emergency ticket to IT, offered to come to his desk to help him add the directory path, and generally treated the request as actually being a request for access. Because *of course* he needed access to the shared drive!

            Alas, grandboss told me to cut it out and send the file.

            Reply ↓
      2. Csethiro Ceredin*

        Same. And then he couldn’t wrap his head around why nobody else could see the work he had done in the file.

        Reply ↓
    5. My Useless Two Cents*

      I once trained a guy trying to transition from a physical job to an office job because of health. We are a mostly paperless office so everything is computers. After explaining how to save a file to a job folder (we’re talking excel spreadsheets here to already created job folders) over a dozen times, I wrote out a literal step by step (use mouse to click on File in upper left of screen, then click on Save As, etc.), printed it out and gave it to him. Only for him to still ask 6 times a day how to save the spreadsheet, or claim he didn’t know where the spreadsheet was or where it saved to or that the “spreadsheet disappeared”. I was at my wit’s end on what to do. I was only training him, not his manager so I had no real control of anything. He was a really nice guy but not fit for an office based desk job.

      Reply ↓
    6. Strive to Excel*

      My most recent minor pet peeve was watching someone painstakingly manually format an Excel column to match the rest of the table instead of using Copy>Paste Special>Paste Formatting.

      Though it’s always good to remember that just because *you* know a feature is there doesn’t mean everyone else knows a feature is there. We tend to start forgetting how complex the “basic” concepts in our fields and technologies are sometimes. As long as someone’s not whining about it or deliberately making my life harder I don’t mind working through a bit of ineptitude.

      Reply ↓
        1. Abogado Avocado*

          Tradd, I feel your pain, having supervised people like your worker. When I finally got tired of being asked for the 15th time how to concatenate, I told them they had to take the free online training that nearly every software program provides and send me the certificates showing they had completed the training. To make it easier on them, I sent them links to the specific programs and scheduled time on company time to take the training. One particular worker became so excited by pivot tables, etc. in Excel, he became the in-house expert. I miss that guy.

          Reply ↓
        2. Strive to Excel*

          Oh, your John sounds like a massive PITA! He’s not included by virtue of the “whining about it” clause. I’m just reminded that most of my former coworkers have been clueless but not malicious.

          Reply ↓
      2. Hannah Lee*

        I work for someone who is very tech savvy. Last week we were reviewing, updating the budget projections and he was looking over my shoulder as I was making some changes, including copying the formatting from a previous year’s worksheet to a new one using the “format painter” paintbrush icon from the Excel toolbar.

        He was like, wait, what? … how did you do that so fast? and had me show him slowly. He had no idea that function was there. He probably has some shortcuts he uses that I’m clueless about.
        Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be the issue with OP’s guy.

        Reply ↓
      3. ecnaseener*

        Excel is amazing for that. There are people going their entire professional lives using it every day and never knowing it can do anything other than putting text in boxes, and I’m still thinking of myself as a beginner because I can’t figure out pivot tables.

        Woe betide me if I forget to clear a filter from a shared spreadsheet….

        Reply ↓
        1. Elizabeth West*

          I don’t math — at all — and I can do more with it than that. (Not pivot tables, though; I don’t know what they are.) I was very proud of myself when I figured out how to make a little timecard that helped me figure out my hours.

          But it depends on what the job actually is. I have had jobs where all I did with it was mail merges.

          Reply ↓
        2. Mutually supportive*

          We have a shared spreadsheet at work which is literally just a list of names and whether they have a particular certification.

          So often people complain that the last person in the file left a filter turned on, and send a Teams message to everything to complain.

          But it’s literally two, maybe three clicks to clear all of the filters. I always just think of the first step of the checking task to be “clear old filters” and then it’s not annoying.

          I don’t understand why it needs to be such a big deal!

          Reply ↓
        3. Veruca Salt*

          Up until very recently I thought of myself as a pretty mid-level sophisticated Excel user. That is until this new kids started, who quickly put me to shame. I can’t make sense of half the formulas he’s using, let alone what Excel was capable of.

          It’s.So.Humbling.

          Reply ↓
        4. sb51*

          I can do pivot tables but I only learned about format painter very recently, lol. Because I’d generally only used excel to crunch numbers for me, and never cared how it looked.

          Reply ↓
        5. Pine Tree*

          Ha, I’ve also dealt with the “OMG 1/3 of the rows have DISAPPEARED in the spreadsheet! They are GONE!!!1! Someone deleted them!”

          Reply ↓
      1. Tired*

        Actually, that’s a workaround for poor internet quality – especially in processor greedy video call software like teams, my official laptop with decent WiFi can’t actually handle running teams plus a large PowerPoint file (more than 30Mb or so) so I make a pdf & that works much more smoothly without lags/freezes. Not ideal but until I get a better laptop issued (it’s only 4 years old so I have another 2-3 to go by local standards) that’s what gives the best presentation experience

        Reply ↓
      2. ashie*

        I gotta be honest, I’ve done that. You never know what kind of terrible equipment they’re going to ask you to use.

        Reply ↓
      3. Strive to Excel*

        That was actually a recommended trick when I was in business school; send your presentations in as PDFs vs slide decks. Or take the PDF and convert it back to a slide deck as pictures. Prevents any shenanigans with unsupported fonts or pictures not saving right or other issues. If you put your PDF full screen and tab through with arrow keys it’s basically the same thing.

        Reply ↓
        1. Ama*

          Yeah I used to work with scientists and sometimes they had so many high resolution images jammed into their presentation that a normal computer (the kind most conference venues have on hand to run slide decks) would freeze up. The choices were either pdf or letting the presenter plug their own computer directly into the system which some venues wouldn’t allow. (The scientists’ computers tended to have a lot more memory and computing power due to the huge amounts of data they handled.)

          Reply ↓
      4. Blarg*

        As others have said, this can be a great technique, especially if the computer you are sharing from is not your own. With the PDF version, you know the fonts are right, the display ratio is the same, everything is rendered properly, etc. Sucks when you have to use a conference computer and you pull up your slides and they don’t have your default font and all your text is running off the page, or your images are misaligned.

        Reply ↓
    8. is the math right ?*

      I worked with one woman who edited my word document reports and then instead of tracking changes or sending an email, would put the report in a new folder. The new folder would be titled something like “I changed the format of the date and added two sections to the results because the reviewer needs to know what the elephants were purple”

      I never showed up correctly on my computer, and I finally had to tell her to knock it off cause I was afraid it would break something.

      Reply ↓
      1. Generic Name*

        OMG, my last company had a problem with people giving files ridiculously long names in a folder like 20 folders deep within the server so the file would eventually become unreadable because the filepath was too long. Marketing just never thought to abbreviate anything.

        Reply ↓
    9. Watry*

      I spend a surprising amount of my time teaching people how to navigate File Explorer. Things like drag and drop and copy/paste are advanced.

      We just have a lot of people who are very good at their jobs but do not understand any part of any tech they don’t directly use–so they may be able to, say, use a program to find something by number, but not by name. In my last job (same place, different department) someone from IT thanked me, profusely and sincerely, for not saving all my documents to my desktop.

      Reply ↓
      1. JustaTech*

        I had a PI at a well respected research institution who had millions of dollars in grants who saved everything to his desktop.
        He was also a Mac person, so when he couldn’t make the icons any smaller he would get a new, bigger computer. Like, several thousands of dollars in computers because Dr Big Deal refused to learn how to use folders. It was astonishing.

        Reply ↓
    10. AnonForThis*

      Physically printing out the results table for dozens of samples at a time, each with up to 20 entries, and then manually typing all those numbers into excel instead of just using the export to excel feature.

      Like for one sample, fine, it’s not that big a deal to type the numbers in, but it could quickly add up per dataset.

      Reply ↓
      2. Annie*

        Not to mention re-typing is bound to include some errors, because if the person is that computer illiterate, how likely is it that they have good and accurate typing skills?

        Reply ↓
    11. Do Better*

      All the school girls I know are tech savvy and not prone to whining unless, perhaps, they are being subjected to unkind stereotypes.

      Reply ↓
    12. I take tea*

      I work with some people who can’t put a power point into presenter view. They show it with all the formatting boxes visible, and the red squiggly lines under the words, because the template is in another language than the text. Drives me nuts. (I have tried to gently point out how to put it in presenter view and got such a telling off that I never tried to help again.)

      Reply ↓
    13. Laura*

      My old job involved a ton of data processing in excel sheets and my supervisor was very inept (and we are talking pretty basic excel skills, none of your fancy pivot tables or crazy formulas). The kicker was that she bragged about how she learned to program using punch cards in grad school! My other least favorite thing she would do is email us, then call us and explain over the phone that she’d sent an email and what was in the email she sent. This invariably happened when we were in the middle of time-sensitive lab work.

      And also, please consider rephrasing next time as “whines like a school kid” instead of the sexist “whines like a school girl”? Because I promise you as a mom of two boys, they can whine like nobody’s business (you should hear my 12yo when I tell him it’s time to stop gaming and come eat dinner/do chores/touch grass).

      Reply ↓
    14. NothingIsLittle*

      Had to teach a coworker how to use Excel. She could open the program… and that was about it. She didn’t even understand the idea of clicking on different boxes to control where she was typing information.

      Reply ↓
    15. anononon*

      Disclaimer that my boss has some major medical issues that make it difficult for him to read and especially to read screens, and is also old enough that many of his peers agewise don’t use email at all. It’s not that he’s bad at tech that I mind, it’s that he assumes the worst of me and refuses to listen to my explanation when it’s clear that the issue is him not understanding tech and not knowing to, say, scroll down.

      Anyway. My boss got upset with me the first month I worked here because he told me he could start a particular monthly Zoom meeting from home (I asked him multiple times, as he is not good with technology and he admitted that at the interview and said I would have to do a lot of tech stuff for him) and I thought, “I could sign in for him and start the interview, if he can’t find the button,” so I asked him for his password and got very frustrated with me over the phone because he doesn’t have a Zoom password, why would he have a Zoom password? You just click on Zoom and it goes and the meeting starts!

      As it turned out the person who’d been handling this task every month previously was starting the meeting for him, with his Zoom account, and he was just clicking the link to the meeting, not signed into an account, assuming that that magically started everything. He no longer trusts me with anything to do with Zoom. Which is fine, honestly.

      He also frequently emails me scanned PDFs of things and tells me to print them and scan them, or to change the wording on them (“but don’t retype everything!” Okay… so where’s the version in a word processor? “I sent you the file!” Sir, that is a bad scan with your handwriting all over it, I cannot incorporate your changes easily with just this.) He has no idea how email threading works, and frequently acts like I’m lying about having sent him something when someone else has responded to the thread (or, worse, used the same generic thread title) and my email isn’t the first in the thread anymore. If there’s any minor computer issue (like, something froze and I had to ctrl+alt+del and therefore it’s taking a little longer to do the task) he gets upset that I have wasted time by handling it on my own and continuing with the task instead of stopping everything and waiting until [male coworker] has time to come and to fix my computer. (The male coworker in question is usually busy and often WFH and while he’s an expert in our accounting software I don’t think he knows much about, like, printer issues.)

      And then there’s the table in Word that an important list is organized in. (Not a spreadsheet. A table in Word. I did not make the table in Word; frankly I think my predecessor is afraid of spreadsheets.) I was forbidden to remove or reorder the table in Word. I was forbidden to add columns. Except, oh, why isn’t there this information, why haven’t you been putting that on there? Oh, I’ve been putting it on there in this column? Well, add it in this other, unrelated column, too, boss will come up with an elaborate symbology. And then forget what the symbols mean and accuse me of overcomplicating things. Why isn’t this information on there? Add these two columns! Wait! Why has the pagination changed, why are the rows thicker now???? Don’t remove items we’re done with, then he can’t find everything, it’s not in the same place! When boss’ boss asks how many items are still open, just manually count them all, it shouldn’t take that long, the list is only 25 pages. Oh, and never reorder the list so everything is always on the same page from version to version, but if something new comes in that’s associated with a client who’s already on the list, put the new thing below that! (But never reorder the list. Every page must remain exactly the same. But add this information.)

      My boss felt it was a “waste of time” to spend any time doing anything organizational for this project (a direct quote: “You don’t need to put them in order, just do them!” About a list of 100+ items that all needed to go through a complex multistep process, and some of which were higher priorities than the others.) so I didn’t dare take the time to do an actual spreadsheet, but a coworker was recently assigned to this project by someone higher up than my boss, and she DID create the spreadsheet of my dreams while my boss was busy micromanaging me, and I love it and it’s just about halved the time it takes for me to do some of my work. Boss is deeply suspicious of this change and probably thinks I’m a witch, but he has just left for a vacation so hopefully we can get some stuff done today before he comes back.

      (Coworker, if you’re reading this, I meant it when I said I loved the spreadsheet. I would probably not die for this spreadsheet, but I would get a papercut for it, and that’s not nothing.)

      Reply ↓
      1. Annie*

        It seems like you really needed this subject to come up and vent a little, anononon!!
        Sorry for all the troubles with that boss!!

        Reply ↓
      2. Tradd*

        Wow. Worse than John. Glad you got to unload!

        I have to commiserate on tables in Word. They stink.

        I have maybe advanced beginner Excel skills. I don’t do formulas or anything else. But as a long term veteran of freight forwarding and now a licensed customs broker for more than a decade, I can make very decent simple spreadsheets used for shipment tracking and the like. I know how to add columns, sort, and have subtotals – a VERY specific skill I was taught ages ago. I use it for very long customs entries. People are astonished I can do this. I never took an Excel class Just learned what I know on the job over the years and some experimentation.

        Years ago, I’d go on vacation and my nice tracking spreadsheets would have very jacked up formatting from people covering my desk who had very bad Excel skills.

        Reply ↓
    16. AnonAnon*

      I had an accounting manager who could not use excel to save her life. She would add up the numbers in the spreadsheet on an adding machine and then input the total into the spreadsheet. Then print the spreadsheet and staple the adding machine tape to the spreadsheet. Note: sometimes the total was incorrect.
      I became an office legend when, after sending her to her second beginners excel course, I threw her adding machine out the window of our 7th floor office onto the train tracks below.

      Reply ↓
    17. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Me to a friend I was texting: “BRB, someone needs Excel help.”
      45 minutes later…
      Me: “Sorry that took so long, she needed help adding a column.”
      Friend: “45 minutes to demo equals-sum?”
      Me: “No, not adding UP a column. Just adding a column.”
      Friend: “Wait, like… right-click, add column?”
      Me: “I had to go through it four times.”
      Friend: “Oh sweet Jesus.”

      Reply ↓
    18. Ama*

      I’m working with a client who I am starting to suspect doesn’t understand how cloud based file sharing works. We’re primarily working with a program where the files have to be downloaded, edited and then reuploaded – you can’t work directly in the file on the cloud. I also can’t upload to their shared drive directly so I have to email the file back and she seems to somehow expect it to automatically update her file without actually saving the new file. It happens when she edits the file, too- she’ll share a link to something she’s edited and it will be an older version without the edits (I am guessing because she only saved the file to her computer and didn’t reupload.)

      I have an in person meeting with them in a couple weeks so I am hoping we can discuss process and I can figure out whether she truly doesn’t understand how cloud storage works or if there’s something funky about their file setup that’s causing problems. I have had coworkers with this issue before but I can’t really ask a client if I can watch them share a file the way I could if my report was struggling.

      Reply ↓
      1. anononon*

        I once had a bizarre back-and-forth with an opposing attorney over some financial disclosure I’d uploaded to a cloud service we use, which I am fairly familiar with as I use it at home to back up my own hobby writing. I had organized all the scans and data we had and uploaded everything using what I thought was a fairly self-explanatory organizational scheme with folders. I think there was also an index, but I might have run out of time to do that, because there was a pretty short deadline.

        Several weeks later the attorney emailed me demanding to know where the teapot account statements were, as in previous years they had been supplied to him. I said that they were in the Teapot>Statements folder, and asked him if he was having trouble accessing the files. I told him to please let me know if there were any technical issues, because I was very nervous that I had screwed something up. He did not reply to this email either.

        However, a day later he emailed me demanding to know why I had put the Cup and Saucer statements in the same folder — were they related somehow? And why were there only Cup statements? Where were the Saucer statements??? I replied that while I was not familiar with the case enough to discuss what the Cup and Saucer had to do with each other, the bank had issued statements for the Cup and Saucer accounts as one merged statement, with a screenshot of one of the statements showing that it was for both Cup and Saucer. I repeated that if he was having trouble accessing the files I would be happy to help however I could. No response to this, either.

        Several hours later I received an email asking why I hadn’t included the budget spreadsheets regarding the Teapot and Kettle accounts, and I worried that I had forgotten to include these, as there were a lot of spreadsheets, but I double checked and they were right there, labeled self-explanatorily. I gave him another link, and added the spreadsheets as attachments “in case you are having trouble accessing them.”

        I think I got one more email asking where the Sugarbowl statement was, but this time he said “my assistant cannot find this statement” rather than accusing me of holding it back, which would have been a nice change except I assume he had gone from blaming me to blaming his assistant, who probably didn’t deserve it either. I just explained where it was, attached it and asked him to let me know if he ran into any other issues.

        Reply ↓
    19. No name today*

      Had a colleague (higher pay grade than I) who didn’t understand how spreadsheets worked. Would ask for printouts of the spreadsheet filtered by X and then by Y, then another print out of it sorted by $, then a third sorted by date, etc.. Insisted on pdfs so “they matched his printouts.” And folks—this was in 2008. He never understood that in a spreadsheet he could filter, sort, etc. to his heart’s content.

      Reply ↓
    20. Hiding from my boss*

      this was 25 years ago. we had a writer who was pretty computer challenged (sometimes i thought he just wanted somebody else to do stuff for him instead of doing it himself.) he couldn’t get the hang of attaching a file to an email and sending it to us, so i walked him thru copying the text and pasting it into the body of his email. the first few times it didn’t work. had to prod to find out he was pasting the entire document into the subject line of the email.

      so also taught him how to do a subject line.

      gotta love ’em, especially on valentine’s day!

      Reply ↓
    21. RLC*

      Had a colleague who was incapable of filling paper trays in the shared printer without jamming or breaking said trays (mid 2000s, not new technology). I’d hear her cussing the printer and run to intervene and rescue the printer from Wreck-it Wanda. Always surprised when other colleagues got angry with me for intervening, they wanted her to learn to fill paper herself (think they assumed weaponized incompetence on Wanda’s part-she was actually just impatient and careless with all equipment). Pointed out that damaged printer cost much to repair and was out of order until service tech fixed it and none of us could use it if Wanda broke it, so please just let me take care of it. It was an odd workplace dynamic.

      Reply ↓
    22. fhqwhgads*

      Employee left a voicemail in a huff. His “work laptop DIED”. No further details. Helpdesk phones him back, asking died how: blue screen of death? won’t boot? any error? no power light? what? Guy’s attempted answers did not shed light. Helpdesk tries a different approach: is it plugged in? Does it have battery? etc. Guy doesn’t know.
      Helpdesk video calls with Guy and has to walk him through Pushing The Power Button.
      It booted immediately.
      This person is not new to the workforce. Has had said work laptop for years. We have no idea how he both couldn’t figure this out and hadn’t ever had the problem before.
      He definitely has had a reputation for being computer inept the entire time, but this was baffling.

      Reply ↓
    23. RagingADHD*

      I had to reformat a presentation this week that came in as a 30 meg file. 30,000 K. I couldn’t figure out why everything was so slow, and then when I checked the file size I was actually impressed that my system didn’t just freeze up entirely.

      It had no multimedia or fancy fonts. I can only assume someone downloaded full size, full resolution images to use in the PPT, because there’s just no logical reason for it to be that enormous.

      It was from the Technology Infrastructure group.

      Reply ↓
    25. Kay*

      I once hired for an admin position and the ad specifically stated they needed advanced knowledge of MS Office products Word, Excel and Outlook and intermediate knowledge of a few other programs. As we were in an extremely tech savvy city this was basically everyone so after confirming they possessed these skills and the basics aligned during a quick phone interview we brought in one woman with a very promising resume for an interview.

      I don’t recall what it was that set us off right from the start, maybe a deer in headlights look while talking about queries, mail merges or something, but my boss and I kinda looked at each other with an unspoken “???!!!”, then immediately pivoted to a working demonstration. We sat her in front of a computer and I asked her to open up Word – I think her response was “What?” I assumed she hadn’t heard me so I asked her to open up a new Word doc and she goes “What is that?”. I kid you not. After confirming she did not actually know any of the required programs we ended the interview.

      I still am amazed someone could have gotten that far in life without knowing what Word was (this was a point where it was absolutely a staple in schools), also managed to get their resume so polished and somehow emailed it to us!

      Reply ↓
    26. Beth**

      Three stories:

      1. One summer in college, I had a temp secretary job. The work was easy and my boss tried to convince me to drop out of college to work for him permanently (uh…nope). When he went to hire the permanent person, their resumes were impressive with more years of secretarial experience than I had been alive and I was sure the person he hired would make clear why he had been silly to think of keeping me on.

      I was in charge of training her and there was one task that involved sorting a spreadsheet, sending a copy to my boss, sorting it back to the way it had been and then saving it. It was a weekly task that took me all of 5 minutes. She Did Not Get It. I had to show her a dozen times while she took copious notes. That was when I realised why my boss had been so keen to keep me. I still went back to college.

      2. In 2008 I worked for a boss who was then in his 30s (so no excuse for tech incapability other than choice). If I sent him a document for review, he would forward it to his secretary asking her to print it, scrawl illegible notes on the hard copy and pass it back to me. Everyone else had been using tracked changes for a year. Even his boss and his grand boss used tracked changes in their feedback to me.

      3. Two years ago. I was chair of a charity board. Board papers were circulated by a mixture of people sending them to the board secretary who forwarded them on to board members, people doing a “reply all” to an existing board paper email (never changing the subject line to indicate it was a different paper) or sending things directly by email to board members (inevitably occasionally meaning one or more members was accidentally omitted).

      I tried valiantly to get the board to use some kind of online system to upload and share papers. Google docs. Dropbox. Teams. Each month one or two would figure it out but the rest would send confused emails every month asking if there was an agenda and any papers.

      When I stepped down as chair, my successor (at 73 of a similar age profile to most of the other board members) reverted to sending everything by email.

      Reply ↓
  9. Meaningful hats*

    I have a question for the managers out there – is there a good way for me to ask my employer to switch to remote work with flexible hours in order to care for my autistic child?

    I have a moderate-to-severely autistic 5 year old who is in public school this year. This school year has been completely awful. Legally, the school district is supposed to provide FAPE (free and accessible public education) to all children regardless of disability. In reality, our school district has shrugged their shoulders and said, “We don’t have the money to provide resources for your child. If you don’t like it, sue us”. The school district has multiple pending lawsuits against it for treating other disabled children this way. We’ve retained a lawyer and may be adding ourselves to this pile of lawsuits.

    What this looks like on the day-to-day is that I am called in daily to pick up my child from school because of their behavior. They are non-verbal and refuse attempts to use devices to communicate, they scream, hit, kick, scratch, and spit. Their behavior is vastly different at home, and the school environment causes this reaction. I can’t tell you the last time I worked a full day because I am always leaving to pick them up. I don’t have any family members who are willing or able to help and my husband is unable to switch off with me because of the nature of his job. I have the smaller salary of the two of us, but our household can’t afford the loss of my income. Our state does not have a Medicaid waiver for autism, meaning that there is no avenue for me to become a paid caregiver for our autistic child. I must work.

    The vast majority of my job could be done remotely, and much of it is asynchronous. As long as my projects are completed and turned in by the deadline, I’m good. Even though everyone is in the office, I communicate with people mostly over Teams. There are about 4 hours per month where I would need to be on-site to complete an aspect of my job that can’t be done remotely.

    I want to approach my employer with the proposal that I become a remote employee and with the understanding that some of my work will be completed during non-business hours (ie, at night once my husband is home or after my child has gone to sleep). I would still be online during the day, but would be switching modes between work and caregiving/helping my child with virtual schooling. I would utilize paid childcare in order to come in once a month to complete my on-site work. And I would complete all my projects by the deadline, as I have continued to do even during this tumultuous school year.

    I have seen my company give flexibility to other employees dealing with tough life circumstances, and they have been very understanding of my need to pick up my child when school calls. I received a glowing review this past year because I’ve been able to maintain a high quality of work, even given the situation. I’ve never missed a deadline. But the stress of those daily calls and having to calm my child down after school has me near burnout. I think I could function much better if I went into each day knowing that I’d be working in small spurts over the day while caregiving for my child, and they would have a much more successful day being in a safe environment and schooling virtually.

    I’m aware that what I’m asking for is a departure from the norm and I want to make sure that when I make the ask I have all my bases covered in terms of assuring them that I will do what it takes to meet the needs of the business.

    Reply ↓
      1. Notmorningperson*

        Red herring. Presumably they has childcare arrangements form birth to age five … it’s school that’s messed up here.

        Reply ↓
        1. Abigail*

          I have a lot of sympathy for this poster and everything they are going through.

          I think educators are in a really difficult situation when a student is habitually violent. Balancing the safety of faculty, staff, and other students with educating the student is a very difficult balance to strike.

          The lawsuits point to this school district managing it poorly. I just don’t want to gloss over how complicated this truly is.

          Reply ↓
    2. Momma Bear*

      I’d focus on your ability to do the work (especially if there’s any kind of requirement to have childcare to work remotely), even if it’s asynchronous. I’d address questions about meetings and other collaboration. Remind them that even with these challenges you have maintained a high quality of work, met deadlines, etc. Do you have a backup caregiver for days you might have to be in an office or really can’t leave to get your child?

      Reply ↓
      1. Abogado Avocado*

        This. Make your WFH request in writing with the frame of why it would be more efficient for your employer to allow you to WFH. Do not frame it as a way to care for your child. (Yes, I know that’s your primary concern, but it’s not your employer’s.)

        Rather, highlight the asynchronous nature of your work, your superb track record in meeting deadlines, as well as any waste of time that commuting and coming into the office injects into asynchronous projects (for example, if you find you have a lot of “sitting around time” during the day because others haven’t yet submitted the project to you, note how often that happens. Do the same if there’s a history of projects being submitted to you during your commute and how that injects delay into the process). Consider in advance of all the reasons why your employer would object to WFH and address them, one by one, about how you would make them not a problem, after you have covered why it’s more advantageous for your employer to allow WFH for you.

        Conclude with how long you’ve worked for the company, your accomplishments, and your dedication to your work, and why that supports your WFH request. Remember: your goal here is to provide legitimate business reasons that your boss can provide to superiors if she’s ever asked why she approve you for WFH (and not someone else).

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    3. E*

      Many companies require remote employees to still have child care, requesting to work remote specifically to provide child care may be difficult to get approved.
      Wishing you luck with getting your child what they need at school, it’s a hard process. :)

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    4. JSPA*

      Any chance you’re a morning person, the commute is short enough, and your kid likes to sleep in enough, that you could have a friend or neighbor (or your husband if his day starts later) present for early morning hours, you’d be in at work from (say) 7-9:30 a.m. most days? you’d then have completed 2.5 hours of work before leaving to do child care, handle such schooling as is applicable, and work asynchronously. And if they ask if you have help for childcare, it wouldn’t be false to say you have someone for partial days, every day (which tends to be the sticking point).

      I know there’s nothing magic about in person. Or about early hours. But they can contribute to the overall impression that you’re always ahead of the curve.

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    5. Cabbagepants*

      First, my heart goes out to you and your child. I am really heartbroken thinking what they must be feeling.

      For your job, I’d start by talking to other people who have gotten flexibility and ask them how the conversation went, if they have any tips for you. and then talk to your boss. Frame is as: you have done well, you love your job, what you need in order to continue doing your job so well is to be remote. Ask: “Would that be possible?” not “Is that ok?” because you need enablement, not permission. And then listen to what they say. If they balk, ask for specific concerns and a trial period of a month and to revisit if any of those concerns have been manifest. If you think your boss would go for it, appeal to company values.

      Good luck and I am sending my very best wishes for you and your child.

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    6. WellRed*

      I think working from home and flexibility is fine but I think asking to wfh to homeschool a very young child is A Lot. Admittedly I don’t know the nature of your work the way you do.

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    7. Synaptically Unique*

      My employer has a policy specifically prohibiting being a primary caregiver while on the clock (applies even to those of us who are exempt). That said, when it’s a random sick day or spring break for a week, most supervisors will quietly permit some flexibility. Full-time would be much harder to manage.

      I would start by having a verbal conversation using your preferred solution as a hypothetical scenario. There’s nothing in writing and you aren’t approaching it as “this is what I’m going to do” so your boss has some plausible deniability. Really lay out your plan – goal is to complete X number of hours during standard business hours, and X number of hours outside that window. How will you ensure you’re available and engaged in any scheduled meetings? Maybe a part-time sitter who comes to your house for a couple of hours every day? How will leave be managed?

      I used to work 9-3 in the office, then make up the extra hours after the kids were in bed or over the weekend. If I didn’t hit my 40 for the week, I’d turn in a leave slip. For the occasional kid sick day, I could choose to do my whole 8 at home/after hours, but it wouldn’t have been feasible for me to do that full time.

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    8. EA*

      I feel for you so much – what a tough situation. I’m going to be honest and say that this does not sound like it’ll go over well with your employer. It’s just not sustainable to be full time caregiving and full time working at the same time (I have tried it…), and most employers require childcare during the day. There’s a real difference between flexibility in emergencies and making this arrangement permanent.

      I would do this in two steps – I think if your employer really is flexible that you could ask to move to remote work, but don’t jump to asking to split your time with caregiving. Ideally, you could move to remote work and see how that impacts your family life first; then maybe in the future, if all is going well and you’re meeting all your goals etc., ask to flex your hours like you say.

      Have you thought about asking to move to being a contractor rather than full time? I know that might have $$ drawbacks though. It seems like honestly that would be best for you because you wouldn’t have to have set hours.

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    9. CzechMate*

      Biggest thing you want to emphasize is that being home with your child will not interfere with your ability to do your work. There is someone at my office who requested and received a basically the same accommodation, but he clearly hasn’t really been doing anything after he leaves the office to be with his child.

      You could even bring this up by saying, “You may have noticed that I often leave work to pick up my child. Obviously, this is a disruption for both of us. I am wondering if we could discuss the possibility of moving to a remote work option.” Then lay out your plan, what accommodation you would need, how available you will be, and how you will get your work done even while working remote. Having something written out in advance could be good.

      Best of luck!

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    10. A*

      Is there a charter school or a co-operative home school in your area? Could you hire a nanny tutor part time?

      Once you’re out of crisis mode, this conversation with your employer will go much more smoothly, speaking from experience.

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    11. SadieMae*

      As someone who’s been there and battled with the school system over FAPE: Sometimes they won’t budge until it’s in THEIR best interest. As long as you’re going over there to pick him up when they call you, it’s in their best interest to keep calling you instead of moving forward with getting him a paraeducator (or a team of them if needed), or making other accommodations. You might check with your attorney about what happens if you simply refuse to pick him up in the middle of the day for behavioral reasons. In our family situation I did end up quitting my job (partly for this reason, partly because my son had so many therapies etc. and someone had to drive him and oversee it all) but of course that’s not possible for everyone (and it totally hamstrung my career, which was incredibly frustrating). But I know people who weren’t able to do that, and it was only by putting the onus on the school/school system that they were able to get the services their kids needed. (At least some of the services – sometimes the staff just kept the kid and other kids safe but didn’t put in the money/time/effort to actually try to educate them much.)

      I’m so sorry you and your family have to go through all this. It is incredibly hard. I know I always used to promise myself I would NOT cry at the next IEP meeting, but I always did. Not out of sadness but out of anger. Almost all of the people we met with gave the impression that they thought we needed to just parent our kid better, and that by insisting on his legal right to an education, we were being difficult. One of them actually said to me really condescendingly, “Well, now, Mrs. SadieMae, you know, we can’t always get everything we want.” As if I were a toddler. I was never so close to punching somebody in my life! I really, REALLY wanted to drop him off at each of their front doors for a week or so consecutively and say, “You think it’s so easy? YOU do it for a while.”

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    12. Banana Pyjamas*

      I would double check how your state administers Medicaid waivers and paid caregiving. In many states these are two separate programs, and the waiver only guarantees eligibility regardless of income. In my state the Medicaid waivers are actually for assisted living, and home help is a separate program, though subject to Medicaid eligibility.

      My autistic child does well in tiny home daycare settings, like 5 kids or less. Would that be an option for you?

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    13. JustCuz*

      I am a single mother of an autistic child whose school also would not accommodate. Because his IQ was higher than average, they refused any special ed, but would call me and complain regularly about his disruptive behavior. You can imagine what life was like for a child like that in general classes. He was hospitalized for 2 months if 4th grade due to suicidal ideation.

      My life was so freaking hard, and I feel tremendously for you, but you will not be able to work and take care of this child. Even if this child was a neurotypical 5 year old, 5 year olds require a lot of attention and handholding. They also just starting to learn the norms of formal education and classroom rules (virtual or no).

      I had to work. it was a matter of survival. That said, my jobs still suffered. I was lucky that I did have a little help with a sitter (who is now my very good friend) and my parents. I went through periods time where I couldn’t work or be reliable. Ad the one advice I give parents in similar situations, is that facing the reality of what you AND your child can handle and what you are capable of, and what is actually feasible is paramount. And then you have to get comfortable with what that means for your lifestyle moving forward.

      I wasn’t *just* a single mother of two kids. I was a single mother with a child with special needs, AND I had to live a special needs lifestyle. And I do not know what that looks like for you or what support you have, but trying to continue on with life they way it was before isn’t going to work. The out comes are generally terrible.

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    14. Could have been Debra*

      So much of this is similar to our story I almost could have written it. I was able to shift to part-time, flexible hours (I am present for meetings, but otherwise set my own hours), fully remote. My employer has a lot of rules about employment, so we formally created a new contract that specifies all this. Honestly, it wasn’t hard to arrange. For me at came up at a natural time (annual review). I basically just asked and my boss said yes. Or, more accurately, I floated the idea to see if it was possible and over a few weeks we discussed if that’s what I really wanted and outlined the scope of work, logistics, and expectations. We initially agreed on doing this for one year, but it went well and now it’s for as long as I want. I realize I am very lucky and could never negotiate this at a new job. I don’t see how I could work 9-5 right now, so I do feel some pressure (self imposed) to do great work and add value so they never want to fire me! All that to say, if you have a good relationship with your boss and are valued, and it sounds like you are, it is possible to find solutions like this.

      You didn’t ask, but on the school note, when our kid refused to go to school anymore (massive meltdowns, huge anxiety, no sleeping, etc) we fought hard and got our kiddo moved into a public school with a much better reputation (same district). It’s been night and day. The district is still terrible, but the school is a lovely little bubble. Mentally I think I would have completely burned out if we stayed, not to mention my child was traumatized. In the long run, after they’re done elementary school, we plan to move states because I’m not willing to risk it again. We know many families who live in or moved to MA for their services for autistic children and their families. It’s truly another world. Having an escape plan for Massachusetts has also been helpful for me, knowing I’m not stuck with this lack of legally-mandated services in our district.

      It’s really hard, but you’re doing a great job. The fact that your child is so different at home shows what a safe, nurturing environment you’ve made for them. That’s amazing and it’s only because you’re super parents. You can get there at school too. Keep making good trouble, get parent advocates, lawyers, local news outlets to help elevate the issue (we’ve been there). You’re not alone. I’m rooting for you!!

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    15. NeurodivergentEducator*

      Also, if you have the finances, talk to your lawyer about a something called a “unilateral placement” where you enroll your child in a special ed private school and basically send the bill to the school district. You may have to pay the tuition in the short term, but this action tends to wake up school districts.

      (for the record, I usually hate when this happens–this is often an action taken by parents who already have significant amounts of privilege and use unilateral placements as a cheat code to get private school paid for. And it prevents families who actually need the private placement to get an assignment since all the money is going to the over privileged families. I’m also incredibly in support of inclusion, and private placements are the opposite of that)

      That said, there are a handful of families I wish would do this. There are students who benefit from an intensive program, especially when the district continually fails them. It sounds like you may be in this category)

      Keep up the fight–Parents of dyslexic children are the ones who brought the pressure and the lawsuits that eventually destroyed ineffective reading programs. I’m sorry this process to get your child what they need is so challenging. While there is a certain amount of disagreement that happens when creating support plans, I think all reasonable people can agree that this level of distress your child is experiencing should not be happening.

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      1. JustCuz*

        Yeah people do not realize that our tax money goes into these programs, and public schools will absorb these funds and then not provide the services. Not a lot of people are aware what you have suggested is an option. And sometimes some schools will reject it, and you have to force their hand. I would also recommend getting an advocate involved with the child as well.

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    16. spcepickle*

      So I am a little bias because I manage people who get lots of flexibility to work remotely and we have lots of flexibility in terms of schedule. Chances are solid I would make this work out for you if you were on my team. This is what I would need from you:
      1) Do NOT tell me this is for childcare – If you tell me this it sets both of us up for failure because everyone has unconscious bias and every time you did not answer a teams call my mind would ask if you were doing childcare even if you were really on the phone with someone else or in the bathroom. A simple I would like to request work from home because it will make me more effective. Here are my steps for staying in communication and getting things done . . .
      2) If you are covered by a union understand what the rules look like in terms of when you work. For my team it means I contain their schedules from 6am to 6pm otherwise we have to pay them a night premium, which means I can’t let you start at 5am even if would work better for you and does not affect me. (at least not on paper, but if I know and trust you we might have a wink/nod agreement)
      3) Tell me what hours you know you can work – Even if in reality this needs to flex a little. This needs to be a relativity set across the week. So if you needed to work half days every Wednesday but worked 9 hours the other 4 days that is fine, but it needs to be the same every week and it needs to show up on your calendar. For me as a manger I don’t like bother people when they are not working, so I need to have a clear idea of when you are working.

      All of that said – I hear you that you can’t just leave your job, but could you reduce your hours. I know lots of people who went to 30 hours a week because 6 hours is way easier to fit in a work day than 8. While it reduces your pay some it reduces your stress dramatically. Also in this time of crisis (assuming you are in the US and your company qualifies) could you look into FMLA, caring for a child is a qualifying event and while it only gives you 12 weeks of unpaid leave it does protect your job while you take a moment to catch your breath.

      Good luck to both you and your kiddo.

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      1. Anon This Time*

        Tell me what hours you know you can work
        My read of this is that she wants permission to work whenever she wants, e.g. 10 minutes here, 30 minutes there, 45 minutes at 3 am, without keeping a schedule or guaranteeing that she’d be available at any given time. It’d be great if your boss agrees to it but it’s a big ask in many organizations. If I were the boss and had , I’d be thinking “if I let her do this, how many more team members are going to expect the same arrangement?”

        One other thing I want Meaningful Hats to think about – if you get this arrangement and are successful with it, would you be in any danger of being outsourced? If your job is the type that can be done nearly 100% asynchronously, rarely need to speak with anyone, and can be done by someone with a few weeks/months worth of training – it’s the perfect job to be outsourced overseas. Obviously, this is situation dependent (your job may require an advanced degree/training so not suitable for outsourcing) but it’s something to think about.

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    17. Oink*

      As a parent of an autistic child, I feel for you so much.

      With regards to work, I would suggest remote work as a trial. Make it clear you are factoring in your company’s needs and that you will accept if they decide afterwards that it’s not working. This opens them up for a “risk free trial” on their part without worrying about managing potential performance issues or dealing with an upset employee after they’re turned down.

      As a manager I’m much more open to requests for accommodation if it comes from an employee who acknowledges their personal life isn’t the main consideration for company operations; and that they have certain obligations to fulfill as part of the agreement of labor in exchange for money. I’ve had people who act like they are entitled to certain things like extra long time off or regular absence. Even if they have some kind of important events happening in their personal lives, I’m human and it rubs me the wrong way when people treat their request as “well of COURSE you need to say yes because it’s in my best interests”.

      Good luck. And also your school sucks and I’m sorry you have to deal with this.

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    18. Cordelia*

      I think you’d need to offer to do this on a trial basis for a month or so, to prove you can do it. I can’t really see it working tbh, and I doubt your boss will either, but you obviously believe it’s feasible so you might need to show not tell.

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      1. Concerned parent*

        I feel for the OP, but I’m a little confused – it sounds like she’s talking about her child being schooled virtually? I’m not sure if she will be taking on the role of homeschooling her child or if there will be some other way to do it. I think that would make a big difference in terms of her ability to manage her time.

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        2. Cordelia*

          I don’t think this would make any difference – a 5-year-old can’t do virtual schooling without the support of an adult in the home, they can’t just sit there and get on with the work

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    19. Hyaline*

      What were you doing before this year, and can you glean anything from what worked (I assume?) in that environment? Because your options are definitely not solely “remain in this particular public school or homeschool while WFH full time.” If he does well in smaller settings, or an alternative model, or did well in a lower-stakes preschool setting (he’s 5! That’s often too young for even neurotypical kids to start school), that’s helpful info– and maybe another school could give him that (even within the same district, or maybe there are specialized charter schools or another district has programs and would allow a transfer). I know that suggesting a private school and looking into whether your state has vouchers is synonymous to treason in some circles, but honestly–this is the situations where I think it’s totally justifiable. The public school is failing you, if there are options that work better (our not-very-big area has a private school specifically for this, FWIW–they exist!), it’s only fair to investigate them.

      But if you proceed with the WFH plan–I would not say a thing about it being about childcare or even bring up that your kiddo is a consideration here. If asked, I would even say to deflect and say your plans for school for him are in flux (they are). I’m probably in the minority that I think (from experience! COVID WFH time wasn’t that bad IMO!) you can get work accomplished with a young kid at home–don’t count on management agreeing with me. I would emphasize that you can be more productive on your own schedule and show your track record of getting work done.

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  10. Amber Rose*

    A tale from my husband: someone was fired. It wasn’t a fair firing, but it was legal and correctly documented, so he was let go and it was unfortunate and made a lot of people feel lousy. Obviously nobody is warned ahead of time about these things, so the firing was announced shortly before a small valentine’s day event that had been organized. The person who organized the event then asked if everyone would raise a glass and toast the fired employee. Also they’re doing a farewell card or something for him.

    Am I off base here that both the toast and the card are giving me the ick? My husband agrees that the toast was gross but he says the card is a sweet gesture. I think if I got fired, especially under those unfair circumstances, and I got a card with a bunch of farewells on it, I’d feel mocked and uncomfortable.

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    1. Hiring Mgr*

      It’s hard to say without being in that position, but if the firee had been there a while and these were long time colleagues/friends it might have been appropriate. Not sure about the timing though – usually when you’re fired you leave immediately, so was this guy still hanging around?

      Personally when I was fired I appreciated the well wishes and support of people, but YMMV

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    2. londonedit*

      Valentine’s Day events at work are weird anyway where I’m from, but leaving that aside, because it isn’t the point, I do think it was odd for people to toast the fired employee (presumably said employee wasn’t there?? If he was, even weirder). Was the person who organised the event anything to do with management? If so, yep, really icky. I’m not sure about the card – again, if the bosses had anything to do with it at all then yes, definitely incredibly tone-deaf and very odd. I’d be really angry if I was fired and then the company sent me a ‘so sorry you’re leaving!!’ card. But if it was a group of close colleagues independently sending a sympathetic card, and nothing to do with the people who’d actually fired me, then I think that would be fine and might be well received in a ‘well, at least some people cared’ sort of way.

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      1. Last tiger of Tasmania*

        Good point, whether or not management was involved makes a big difference here. I had assumed they were not.

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      2. Amber Rose*

        He wasn’t there. Everyone was feeling a bit lousy about the announcement, so I guess the organizer was trying to address the elephant in the room, so to speak. But it’s not like he died or retired. It’s just weird.

        Your take on the card is the same as my husband’s, so maybe I’m just reading negativity where there isn’t any.

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        1. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

          I was fired from one job after eight weeks, before my probation was over. It was because an executive said that I was better at the job than Lucretia, who had held a similar job there for several years. Lucretia promptly burst into tears, shouted “I’m going home!” and then ran out the door. I was told by the branch manager the following day that I was being fired, because Lucretia had told him that she would quit if I weren’t fired. He also said that since I was fired before my probation ended, I would go on the record as being ineligible for rehire, and if any company ever called for a reference about me, they would be told that I had been fired and was ineligible for rehire. This happened on February 28, so after midnight, I would no longer have health insurance and would be ineligible for COBRA (because you had to work at that company for at least three months to be eligible for COBRA). I thought the firing was unfair. I don’t know if it was “correctly documented.” What I do know is that if they had sent me a card wishing me well, the card would have gone right into the trash. I wouldn’t have seen anything sweet about it.

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    3. Seashell*

      That sounds awful to me. If people want to reach out individually to say they’re sorry about the situation and would be happy to be a reference or something like that, that would be fine. The idea that they’re all discussing the firing without the person there is icky, as you said.

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      2. Amber Rose*

        That’s the thing! A card just feels cheap, like, “sorry you were fired but you’re not worth a personal interaction, here’s a piece of overpriced cardboard instead.”

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        1. Seashell*

          It’s also the kind of situation where people signing it may not care much either way, but they feel obligated to sign because a co-worker is asking them.

          If I had no job, I’d rather have the $5 they spent on the card instead of the actual card.

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    4. Last tiger of Tasmania*

      To me the divergence in opinions between you and your husband suggests the answer: different people will likely feel differently about this and it depends on how people think the fired employee will take it. Personally I wouldn’t like it (I’d be embarrassed and want to lick my wounds in private) but I know this is the kind of thing that gives me a reputation for being a bit grumpy and aloof among people who*would* see it as a touching show of support.

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    5. Nina from Corporate Accounts Payable.*

      I’m with you. Kind 1:1 words with colleagues and private well-wishes is the way to go. The best thing colleagues can do is expand their network to the person who was fired IF they feel that person would be a good employee elsewhere.

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    6. WorkerDrone*

      I would probably feel the opposite. I would feel a signed farewell card would indicate that those signing DIDN’T agree with what happened.

      The way I see it, if someone is fired and it’s fair, everyone just kind of quietly “lets” the employee go – no card, no party, no real acknowledgement, etc.

      If someone leaves the job, though, people express their well-wishes with a card and whatnot.

      So I would read it as my coworkers showing me they will miss me and don’t agree with what happened by refusing to treat it as a “firing” and more like a “leaving”. They probably can’t or won’t come out and say bluntly “this was unfair and BS” but they can do their best to add on their own good intentions.

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      1. Last tiger of Tasmania*

        To clarify, I don’t think there’s anything about the card that suggests the coworkers agree with the firing — quite the opposite; it’s a strong signal that they don’t. This is why I’m aware that some people would appreciate the card. But I, personally, would be embarrassed and put off by a show of sympathy like that, and would prefer those around me to keep a stiff upper lip while I processed it in private.

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      2. Last tiger of Tasmania*

        So sorry, for some reason the page formatting on mobile made it look like your comment was a direct reply to mine, and I now see that it isn’t. Please ignore!

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      3. RagingADHD*

        This is how I would feel, too. Both the card and the toast would feel to me like a form of personal validation.

        There are no absolutes here, and I think your husband is best positioned to know how his coworker would feel, because it’s going to be a matter of individual temperament.

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    7. Defying Gravity*

      I used to work at a law firm that regularly fired lower level attorneys who weren’t (to their mind) a good fit – averaging twice a year or so. The firings were communicated to the attorneys as “this isn’t working out, we’ll give you two months to find a new job but then you’re out either way.” The messaging to the office was that the attorney was “leaving” but it was a relatively small place so everyone knew the attorney was shown the door.

      In the attorney’s last week, the office manager would throw a “party” for them, complete with a cake (!!). The attorney was expected to make a little speech about their gratitude for the opportunity and how they would miss everyone, etc. Keep in mind these were attorneys who had been with the firm usually only a year or so. Needless to say, these were incredibly awkward and uncomfortable events. I remember one time when the fired attorney could barely contain her suppressed rage during the speech.

      I moved on from that place pretty quickly, but I still joke with former friends from there about the spectacular insensitivity of the “firing cake” parties.

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      1. Amber Rose*

        Wow. That’s horrifying, even worse than “pizza day” which we always had only when management wanted to announce someone had been fired. It got to the point where we couldn’t actually order pizza for events anymore because it would scare people too much.

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      2. Hiring Mgr*

        I used to work at a place that when soneone was fired, the company would send around an email congratulating on them “graduating” and wishing them luck on their “new adventure”

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      4. Annie*

        Well that’s awful.
        In regards to the OP, I don’t see this as being a big thing. The card is maybe excessive for someone who has been their 2 months, but the toast as a fairwell, good luck, I don’t see is a big deal.

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    8. Antilles*

      For the card, it really depends on who it’s from. If management is organizing and signing it, then it would feel super weird, but if it’s from co-workers who supported me, then it’s mostly just a polite “thinking of you” that was probably appreciated.
      The toast at a company event feels super weird. Frankly, a toast in general feels weirdly performative for losing a job, it’s not like the guy died.

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    10. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      My reaction would be the inverse of your husband’s. The toast is a nice (transient) gesture, but the card (permanent) would give me more ick.

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    11. Qwerty*

      It sounds like this employee was well liked enough that the colleagues are sad to see them go and have chosen to treat the employee the same as if he had resigned suddenly.

      I actually think it is kindly meant. I could also see the toast / card as someone’s version of a protest since this wasn’t seen as a fair firing.

      The norm in my industry when people leave is for coworkers to meet up for drinks on their last day. If someone is fired but still has friends at the company to coordinate with, we’ll still find a day to meet up and wish them off. This has usually been pretty meaningful to the fired person to have that support.

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    12. Spacewoman Spiff*

      Feels icky to me as well, though from reading the other comments I can see a wide range on this one. Years ago I was laid off, and my manager (the same one who laid me off! And then proceeded to post my role, with a different title/higher pay!) held all these goodbye events which I felt I couldn’t opt out of, but hated and was so miserable at. It felt like he was trying to reframe his layoff (essentially, firing, given that he turned right around to refill his team) as a decision I had made to go find another job, and it was horrible having to sit through him toasting how fantastic I was (again…after eliminating my role). I’d rather have been allowed to walk out the door with no attention, and just have a drink with the colleagues I wanted to/not the one who had fired me.

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    13. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      So the fired employee wasn’t at the party? If that’s the case, it feels performative and the person who proposed the toast is just trying to make themselves feel better.

      For the card, it would depend on whether the office does cards for people leaving for any reason – if so, hopefully the fired employee would recognize this was the office acknowledging their work together and wishing them well. If they are only doing it in this case, it also seems performative.

      Reply ↓
    14. is the math right ?*

      when you say it wasn’t “fair” are there people who feel they let him down / he was scapegoated or otherwise feel responsible or guilty ? the card and toast may be a way to assuage their feelings ?

      Reply ↓
    15. Saturday*

      I actually think it sounds nice. I don’t think I would feel mocked at all – really the opposite.

      Getting fired is one of those things that no one has the right words to talk about, and I imagine it could leave the person feeling like he doesn’t know who his friends are. I would take it as a nice gesture.

      Reply ↓
    16. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      The toast is odd, and the card is too much. As someone who has been fired, it might be nice if some coworkers reached out. Especially if they thought they did well and could be a reference

      Reply ↓
    17. Wellie*

      I guess if tipping a 40 is out, a toast will do.

      I think you could both stand to look at this differently. Firings (and layoffs) are also difficult for the people left behind–not nearly as difficult for the fired/laid off person, but still evoke a number of feelings, like missing the coworker or feeling injustice on their behalf. The toast was for the benefit of the people left behind who were feeling lousy. The card was a gesture of support and goodwill for the person who was fired, to let that person know they all support them. Examine your beliefs about the underlying intent and desired outcome for both those gestures. You probably have some beliefs that are not serving you well.

      Reply ↓
  11. One step forward, two steps back*

    I’m in a very niche role, and my supervisors have always been drawn from another area of the larger field. I was fortunate to have a highly engaged grandboss for several years who had expertise in and understood my niche role, and thus provided a lot of support. Now there’s a new grandboss without that expertise who is moving back to one degree (at least) of separation.

    It was always a lot of work to explain how critically we needed resources, and then demoralizing to watch that message be diluted with every extra layer it had to go through before the final decision-maker weighed in. The result has typically been that I got part (if any) of what I needed. The last 5 years have been amazing, but it looks like I’m going back to where I started.

    Any suggestions for keeping my less-glamorous-but-still-critical area on the radar while respecting the chain of command?

    Reply ↓
    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      I’m going to repeat the advice given to the first OP above. Make a power point deck! That way the message has less likelihood of getting diluted as it moves up the food chain.

      Reply ↓
    2. Someone Online*

      I suspect we are in a different field but I am the new boss taking over from a previous boss who was very involved in the creation and management of a few programs. But what I can also see, from my new perspective, is that boss was neglecting some other programs and I can see places where these neglected programs need more time and attention and resources. As for what the favored programs can do for me, as a new boss coming in – make your case for your value and prioritize the resources you would like and the consequences of not getting them. Sometimes there just isn’t enough to go around and one of my jobs is to decide where to prioritize, so give me the information I need to make those decisions.

      Reply ↓
  12. Hair Problems*

    I know there are articles on here already about crying at work, but I feel so silly for crying about this particular thing this week (I guess it feels Not Very Important, unlike a death or illness or something). This is mostly just to vent but also looking for a little reassurance because I’m still a bit mortified over the entire thing.

    So I decided to get a drastically different haircut at the beginning of the week, going from somewhat long to very short. I understood this was going to come with multiple tries to figure out what styling I liked best. 2nd day with the cut was an in-office day, so I got up over an hour early to give myself plenty of time to play around with it before I had to face a building full of humans for an entire day. Well, turns out it was storming like mad that day and my power went out 5 minutes after I got out of bed. I panicked to get dressed, throw hair stuff in a bag, and race to work to use the bathroom there – only to find out I forgot my hair dryer and a few other important things in my haste. So I ended up crying in the bathroom after 45 minutes of being unable to make my hair look presentable.

    Finally managed to pull myself together enough to hold my chin up and go to my desk, although I was extremely self-conscious about how my hair looked and knew it was significant enough of a change that I wouldn’t be able to avoid people noticing. Sure enough, my coworkers all immediately commented on it. They were all very kind, but all the questions of “when did you cut it?” “how do you like it?” (I could tell from the tone that it was meant as “I’m sure you love it”) ended up making me start crying at my desk. No one commented on that and they all quickly and kindly transitioned to another topic, but I spent the whole day mortified. And I ended up home with a cold on our 2nd of 2 office days for the week, which I wasn’t mad about at all.

    Obviously I’m going to have a much better grasp on my hairstyle by next week, but I’m still embarrassed that I cried at my desk over a haircut…

    Reply ↓
    1. Josame*

      A haircut is one of the valid reasons to cry. You are not alone in this. I’ve cried over haircuts and perms. I’ve had coworkers cry over them too.

      Reply ↓
    2. Hlao-roo*

      If it helps with the embarrassment at all, can you reframe it in your head as crying over a stressful situation? You recently made a big change in your life, your power went out unexpectedly, you rushed into work and didn’t pack all of the things you needed, you spent 45 (stressful) minutes trying to fix the situation and then had to answer many (kind) questions throughout the day. That’s all A Lot, even if most of it is about “just” hair.

      Also, you got up an hour early, which probably means you got less sleep than you usually do. Speaking for myself, I am way less able to handle a stressful situation if I am low on sleep (even if it’s just an hour less than usual) so that could also have been a contributing factor. “I cried at work on a day when I was stressed and tired” is understandable.

      Reply ↓
      2. RagingADHD*

        Yeah, even if your hair wound up looking fine, you were under the gun in several different directions and that could stress out nearly anyone.

        Reply ↓
    3. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

      You didn’t cry over “a haircut.” You cried from stress from the blackout and the humiliation of not presenting something in the light you hoped to present it, and just generally having a bad day.

      And anyone having a bad day gets a free pass to cry a little.

      Reply ↓
    4. Forrest Rhodes*

      I absolutely understand, Hair Problems. That kind of situation … well, it sucks. But the good part is, as you say, it’ll pass: by next week, things—hair-related and not—will be much better.

      Some years ago, while I was working in the corporate world, I got a haircut over lunch, returned to the office, and for the rest of the day, everyone who passed my desk smiled and said, “Oh, you got your hair cut!”—then (every single one of them!) added, sympathetically, “Well, don’t worry; it’ll grow back!”

      I had to laugh. After all, I wasn’t the one who had to look at the cut all day—I was behind it! It was the rest of the world that had to face it.

      And my sympathizers were right: it did grow back.

      Reply ↓
    5. Amber Rose*

      I once got a haircut so bad I sobbed into my husband’s arms in the middle of a busy mall. I later turned up uninvited on my best friend’s doorstep and she took one look at me, said “oh sweetie” and grabbed her scissors to clean it up.

      Hair is one of those deeply personal and important expressions of personality and individuality. It’s why people with long hair cut it short after some dramatic event like divorce. It’s a symbol, and 100% a normal and understandable thing to get emotional about.

      And even if it was as silly as you think, who cares? You’re human, and sometimes humans cry. I get teary over random songs sometimes still.

      Reply ↓
    6. cmdrspacebabe*

      Honestly, I doubt folks will even remember that much, or think less of you if they do. If I saw a coworker start crying in those circumstances, I wouldn’t think “Dang, what a baby”; I’d think “Dang, they must be having a really crappy day in ways I’m not aware of, been there.” And from the sound of your morning, I bet you were already primed for a big emotional response – that’s a lot of stress and frustration right off the bat. No wonder a bunch of comments about something you were worried about set you off. Some days are just Like That (i.e. bad).
      It doesn’t sound like you were ‘crying over a haircut’ so much as ‘having a stress response to a shitty day’, which isn’t really something to be embarrassed about, IMO.

      Reply ↓
    7. Tea Monk*

      It’s ok. Sometimes when people tear up it’s nlt because of the small things, its a build up of stress. If your coworkers don’t suck, they won’t mind and if they do suck, you shouldn’t mind

      Reply ↓
    8. Random Academic Cog*

      Major hair changes, especially long to super short, have a high risk of causing some emotional overload. I know so many people (myself included) who have experienced this (not necessarily at work, but in general). I’m sorry the timing and circumstances worked out so badly for you, but I’d imagine many of your colleagues (especially women) can sympathize. I would totally get it and wouldn’t think worse of you because you got very emotional for a very understandable reason. I hope you find the perfect routine and end up loving it! But if you don’t, my hairdresser always reminds me that it’s just hair and it will grow out/back if I end up disliking a new style.

      Reply ↓
    9. strawberry lemonade*

      Long to very short is a pretty dramatic change! I would guess that the haircut looks good, but it’s a very drastic update to your self image.

      I would also guess that your coworkers could perceive that you were a little on edge about the cut—that’s okay!!!—and that their tone wasn’t a mean “I’m sure you love it” but “let me check in because this person I like looks upset.”

      Reply ↓
    10. JSPA*

      They don’t know that it was “only” the haircut. Plus it probably wasn’t only the haircut–having unexpected power outages is stressful, too, and you were almost certainly already coming down with whatever illness knocked you out a couple days later…and there’s plenty of free floating stress to go around these days. I wouldn’t explain it. I wouldn’t dwell on it. I wouldn’t apologize for it. It was a bad day; we’ve all had one, occasionally.

      Reply ↓
    11. EA*

      I vividly remember people staring at me as I sobbed on the street while walking to the bus stop after getting a really bad haircut! Hair really does affect emotions. Seriously don’t worry about it! Someday you’ll look back on this and feel OK about it, even if today it feels like a nightmare.

      Reply ↓
    12. Little My*

      when you say “home with a cold” do you mean you were then sick enough to stay home the next day? another reason why you felt especially lousy the day before, you were coming down with something.

      Reply ↓
    13. Chauncy Gardener*

      I think everyone has cried over a haircut! And if they didn’t, they really wanted to. Trust me, everyone understands and you have nothing to be embarrassed about.

      Reply ↓
  13. Bananapants*

    I know the phrase banana pants is thrown around here a lot.

    someone is capitalizing on the term, and selling ‘grown up’ toys under that name.

    I won’t link, you are all bright enough to google (or not Google), and click (or not click) the link.

    Reply ↓
    1. Phony Genius*

      I’m at work, so all I see when I google “banana pants” is pants with bananas printed on them. (There are a lot of variants for sale.) I’ll add the “toys” qualifier at home.

      Reply ↓
    3. Alex*

      Prior to it being used here, I had heard that phrase used in a “grown up” way, so I don’t think I could accuse someone of taking it from here into the gutter.

      Reply ↓
    4. Wellie*

      If you are talking about bananapantslife dot com, it’s been around for longer than “banana pants” was adopted on this blog as the preferred alternative to “batnuts insne.”
      Yes, they are capitalizing on the the term.
      No, they did not learn it here.

      Reply ↓
  14. Canadian Chaos*

    I know US federal employees are going through their own issues, but anyone here working for the Canadian public service? How are you dealing with the Work Force Adjustment? Have you been impacted? How has communication been?

    In our department, it is a clown show. Very little information provided so rumours are flying all over the place. And then we’re told to avoid spreading rumours. Well, what are we supposed to do? Some branches have already announced their cuts and others are waiting in limbo.

    It’s a mess.

    Reply ↓
    1. Csethiro Ceredin*

      I’m with a contractor but I receive the public service emails ministry for my province, and there is some boilerplate stuff going out about external hiring freezes (except, and this did give me some satisfaction, in DEI and reconciliation initiatives, which are NOT frozen).

      It seems the info being put out so far is vague and my contacts don’t seem to know anything more yet. People are understandably stressed.

      Solidarity and sympathy.

      Reply ↓
  15. A broad abroad*

    About a year and a half ago I left my job to follow my partner’s career when they got a job opportunity in another country. I tried my best to get a job in my field while we were abroad, but due to various factors, nothing panned out. (I did get many interviews and even some offers for a few remote jobs, but once they realized I lived outside the US those opportunities fell through, despite my being upfront about where I live on the application materials–so a few lessons learned there.)

    We’re now looking to move back to the US, and I’m considering applying for a job with my former employer, as my manager gave me great reviews and had told me to let them know if/when I move back, plus a few locations within the company are hiring. I think it’s quite likely I could get rehired, so I had a few questions about salary and benefit negotiations.

    First, how would I handle salary negotiations? I know that for a lot of fields, the “best” way to get a significant salary increase is to get a job elsewhere, and I think my field is no exception. How likely do you think it is that they would offer me the exact same salary I had when I left? For what it’s worth, I suspect that in general new employees are hired at a higher rate than previous employees to account for inflation, etc. But I’m not sure how it would work in my case when they can literally see my last payrate with them.

    Would I have any standing to negotiate for a higher payrate, especially since I was unemployed in the interim? For what it’s worth, I have done a few things since I left to stay active in my field, such as completing continuing education, networking, some light volunteering, and getting quoted as an expert in some publications in my field.

    Second, in my field it’s not uncommon to start with zero PTO which you accrue at a certain rate, with the accrual rate increasing with your years of service. I had previously worked for a significant amount of years with this employer and had achieved a pretty good accrual rate. Could I somehow negotiate returning at my previous PTO accrual rate? How would my negotiation on the PTO accrual rate be affected if they offer me the exact same salary I previously had vs a higher one that new hires likely get? (Ideally I’d like both a higher salary and my previous high PTO accrual rate, but of course I need to be realistic.)

    And if I instead pursue a job with another company, how would I handle salary and PTO negotiations with them after a job history gap? I suspect it might be more likely they’d offer the type of salary any new hire would get (that’s in keeping with inflation, etc), but could I negotiate getting the same PTO accrual rate as my last job if I have a gap in my work history?

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      How likely do you think it is that they would offer me the exact same salary I had when I left?

      This is just anecdotal, but I worked at a place where it was fairly common for people to leave for a few years then come back, and the company offered them higher salaries when they returned than when they left. A little different from your situation because all of these people were working in the in-between years.

      Could I somehow negotiate returning at my previous PTO accrual rate?

      I think you can! I would just ask: “when I left [company], I [had x weeks of vacation/accrued vacation time at a rate of x hours per pay period]. Would it be possible for me to have the same [vacation time/vacation accrual rate]?” And then be silent while you wait for them to respond.

      If you instead look for jobs at another company, I would modify the question slightly to “Because I have Y years of experience, can I start with X weeks of vacation?” or “Because I have Y years of experience, can I start at a vacation accrual rate than reflects that?” I think most (or at least some) places are reasonable that someone who is has been in the workforce for a number of years isn’t going to want to start at the bottom of vacation accruals just because they switched companies.

      Reply ↓
      1. A broad abroad*

        Thanks, Hlao-roo!

        Do you think I’d have better luck negotiating my previous PTO accrual rate with my last employer or a new employer?

        Reply ↓
        1. Hlao-roo*

          It depends on what your previous PTO accrual rate was. Overall, you’ll probably have better luck getting the exact same rate at your previous employer. If you were accruing 3-4 weeks per year, I expect most other places will be willing to match that or come close (depending on how much vacation time they give people who have your same level of experience). If you were accruing more than 4 weeks per year (especially 5+ weeks), I think it starts getting less and less likely that another company will match that level exactly, but they will probably be willing to offer you more vacation time than they would to a new hire with no experience.

          Also, if you have an offer from a different company ask about fixed and floating holidays before you negotiate for vacation time. Most places I have worked have offered 10-12 holidays (mixture of fixed and floating). Depending on how many holidays a new company has vs your previous company, you might decide you’re OK with slightly less vacation time and slightly more holidays.

          Reply ↓
    2. Rebecca*

      I had a similar experience of returning to a company I had left on good terms. While I wasn’t very successful getting a raise from my previous salary (it was a non-profit in a bit of a financial pinch), I asked to be reinstated to my former seniority, with all of the benefits that entailed. They seemed happy to be able to accommodate that request, particularly since they couldn’t do much on actual money.

      I do think it might be more difficult to get a different company to match your PTO rate from your former company, but it probably can’t hurt to ask. Just make sure you are clear on how the PTO is accrued (I once had a job that promised 20 days of PTO, but once I actually got the employee handbook, I learned that PTO did not begin accruing until 6 months in, so first year employees only got 10 days, not 20).

      Reply ↓
  16. LightJobHunt*

    My boss seems to think my coworker, Taylor, is heavily involved in my work even though she’s not involved in my work at all. I sometimes give my boss a head’s up about urgent/large problems and what I’m doing to fix them so he’s aware of them. He will ask Taylor for updates instead of me. Taylor is good at saying a lot of words and repeating herself a lot without actually saying anything, so she’ll give long but vague/incorrect answers. My boss will ask me to set up meetings with other teams about problems I bring up and say to invite Taylor, who he then asks for her opinion on what to do, and we go with her ideas. If I explain why her idea wouldn’t work (since I actually know the details of of what’s going on), my opinion is dismissed.

    A new person was hired to fill an opening on our team recently, and Taylor is training them. Our cubicles are close, and I heard her tell the new hire that me and her work very closely together (which is untrue, I can go weeks without talking to her about work, and really only talk to her about work when I forward messages related to her job). And she keeps telling the new hire things that just aren’t true about me and my work and how we work together.

    I’m wondering if Taylor is the one that made my boss think she’s involved in my work. I started looking at internal job postings, but it could be a long time before there’s anything I can apply for let alone until I get a new job.

    How should I handle it if the new hire or my boss repeats anything that’s untrue to me directly? I’m not sure how to nicely say Taylor is delusional or lying.

    Reply ↓
    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      I think the best way to handle it is to be matter-of-fact. For the boss: “Actually, Taylor isn’t involved in this project. I’m handling it on my own/working with Cindy on it. Right now, the status is X, not Y. Since Taylor isn’t working on it, she’s probably not informed on everything that’s going on with it. I’d be happy to keep you apprised of my progress as I go. How would you like me to update you?”

      For the new hire, invite them to a getting-to-know-you meeting/coffee. Tell them about your role, and include how you actually interact with Taylor. Don’t do it in a “despite what you may have heard…” way, but in a “building relationships” way.

      Reply ↓
      1. Reba*

        Yeah, you can diplomatically put in on the table. You and your boss do not share an understanding of your role! I think you need to talk about it.

        Reply ↓
    2. Jeneral*

      This would really bother me. I’m not clear on whether Taylor has convinced your boss she’s doing things she’s not, or whether you’ve misunderstood Taylor’s role a bit. Are Taylor’s ideas good? Does she have more experience in this type of thing? It sounds like there’s a misunderstanding or miscommunication somewhere. Could you bring up the pattern to your boss directly? Something like, “I’ve noticed you often ask Taylor for updates or opinions about my work. Taylor does ___ and I’ve been doing ___” might be useful language.

      Reply ↓
    3. Cacofonix*

      I would preemptively provide your boss with a weekly update. That way, you’re highlighting accomplishments and not just problems. Request a one-on-one with your boss prepared with a short list of your projects and how you will be communicating about them as there seems to be a gap in your boss’ understanding of who is working on/leading them. “This is my plan to improve communication on my projects, is there any other information that would be helpful to you?” From your question, you are sitting in the background while Taylor is controlling the messaging on how they lead your work, your boss sees problems and seems to have more trust in Taylor than you, and here you are, rightly frustrated by it. Take control and get ahead of Taylor delivering messaging and your boss from having to ask for status at all.

      Reply ↓
  17. ProfessionalAxolotl*

    This is a bit silly, but I’m trying to express to a recruiter that I would like an ETA for a written offer without sounding entitled…
    I’ve recently been laid off, and this company is my strongest lead, but they have been incredibly slow in their process (I’m at 10+ interviews/chats and counting ). They’ve been trying to hire for this role for almost years at this point since they have high expectations vs low salaries and mandatory relocation. I’m still willing to take the job because I’m desperate at this point, but after having an onsite and what I’m interpreting as a verbal offer for senior leadership, my anxiety is at an all time high from not seeing the written offer… The recruiter just asked me if I had any questions after three chat with leadership, I’m terrified saying anything wrong would get my offer rescinded (I’m not negotiating on anything either)

    Reply ↓
    2. JSPA*

      Tell the recruiter, “I’ve liked what I’ve heard and seen, and was led to expect a written offer in the near future. Any chance you can find out when that will happen?”

      Reply ↓
    3. WestsideStory*

      Ten interviews is amazingly slow. I hate to say this, but this may not pan out at all.

      Be hopeful, but put this one aside and begin job-hunting again. I know it’s hard when you get invested in working for one company, but at this point, if I were you, I’d respond and just ask “does the organization have a timeline for filling this position?” and then leave the ball in their court, and move on.

      Reply ↓
      1. Concerned parent*

        If This job has been open for years and you’ve gone through 10 interviews. I’m not sure there’s a timeline that they would offer you a job. I know that’s the darkest view but there’s a reason why the job has been open so long.

        Reply ↓
    4. Rex Libris*

      Frame it in terms of wanting to know what the next steps are and the timeline or timeframe for those, not as “When am I going to get an offer letter?”

      Reply ↓
    5. Zephy*

      Ten interviews including three with leadership is excessive. I think you’re within your rights to ask them to sh*t or get off the pot, but my professional brain is already sipping cocktails on a beach for the holiday weekend (which is unfortunate because I do have to work tomorrow), so I can’t help with translating that into a more diplomatic phrasing.

      Reply ↓
    6. Raia*

      10 interviews?! I’d put this job on the emotional backburner and apply to new ones.

      I can’t imagine what people would have left to learn about me after 10 interviews that would make the difference in a job offer.

      Reply ↓
  18. Camellia*

    We had a letter here the other day from someone who was getting “Bless you” from everyone in the office every time they sneezed. Today I burped and, even though I was alone in my office, I automatically said, “Excuse me”. And of course I say the same thing when I’m around people.

    So, low stakes question – Should we continue to say “Excuse me” when we’re around other people or just ignore it the way we would if we, um, burped from the other end?

    Reply ↓
    1. juliebulie*

      I think it’s nice to mumble “excuse me” when a burp is particularly loud or stinky. But I don’t think it’s necessary to excuse yourself for a quiet and discreet burp.

      Reply ↓
    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      My personal take- a burp gets an excuse me, a fart gets ignored. For the most part in an office scenario, people like to pretend farting doesn’t happen and most try really hard to fart silently if they must. If an audible fart slips out on accident, I find that everyone wants to pretend it didn’t happen, so not calling attention to it is the kindest thing.

      Maybe this is just me, and adding the caveat that this is my recommendation in a healthy environment, not some of the bees nests we’ve heard about here when people are trying to be gross and rude on purpose.

      Reply ↓
    3. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      I say “excuse me” to the cats when I burp in my home office. And I say “bless you” when they sneeze. It’s all part of reminding myself that even though I work from home, I should not lose all social skills.

      Reply ↓
    4. RagingADHD*

      If it’s noticeable to others, I think we should excuse it, though if for some reason you’re on a tear you can excuse them in batches.

      Reply ↓
    5. Jane Bingley*

      I usually try to cover it with a lil cough and then say excuse me for that, as a sort of polite fiction for everyone involved.

      Reply ↓
    6. Fluff*

      I’m in the own it politely category. For a toot, my excuse me may be more pathetic sounding than for a burp (unless said burp would make a T rex proud).

      When I was in 7th grade, the guy behind me ripped one during those long silent tests. I blushed and was named the Phantom Farter for years, just because Guy (yes, his name) would not own it.

      I’m directing this to you Guy. Own it nicely.

      Reply ↓
  19. juliebulie*

    I’ve got the yips.
    I’ve totally lost the rhythm and momentum of my job. I mean I know that I need to look for a new job anyway, that’s a long-term goal; but right now I can’t even do the job I have. I’m overwhelmed with trivia and paralyzed with doubt.
    And I have something due today.
    I am trying to just put one foot in front of the other, but right now even that is hard.

    Reply ↓
    1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      Can you break down the thing that’s due into tiny steps and do one at a time? Do you need to open a new document in Word? OK, do that, then take a minute or two to relax before you fill in the title. And so on.

      Reply ↓
      1. juliebulie*

        That’s what I’m trying to do. (Eating lunch and watching The Brady Bunch helped. A little.) I keep running into things where I have to email someone and wait for a reply before I can go any farther. So I am constantly stopping and starting. I hate working this way. I feel stuck.

        Reply ↓
  20. SicktomyStomach*

    I need some advice because I am not thinking clearly. At the beginning of the year I started a new job. I thought this would be a great fit and that they appreciated my years of experience in the field. I have had many high level positions before, managed entire departments, large teams, etc. I knew this job at a smaller, start up would be different, and I was fine with that. I don’t get hung up on titles. However… this place is so disorganized and dysfunctional I could write a thesis about it. The company is run by 2 men – I’ll call them Fergus and Andrew – who are very nice, very bright but who do not actually have background in this particular industry segment. Supposedly, that’s why they hired me. But instead of taking advantage of my industry knowledge they are using me as, let’s say, a tea pot painter when I have been a Senior Director of Tea Pot Design. I don’t mind the painting, but their systems for this task are insanely bad and I am not supposed to ask any questions. All communications have to go through my immediate boss, one of the 2 men running the company. I can’t communicate with the engineers, clients, etc. without drafting it first and sending it to Fergus and getting his OK. Since Fergus is incredibly busy – the man literally works around the clock, getting Slack messages from him at 4 AM is a daily occurrence – getting his approval on things can be time consuming. He is a bottleneck, but he will not relinquish an inch. I have spoken to him – gently – about my frustrations around this but no go.

    I got this job after being unemployed for 18 months. I really don’t want to lose it, but I just am having a lot of trouble figuring out how to handle this situation. Last night I was so stressed and sick from the tension that I could not eat dinner (after not eating all day). All words of wisdom are appreciated.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      My first piece of advice is: start job hunting! This job isn’t a good fit for you. It might take some time to find another job, but that’s all the more reason to start now (or soon).

      In the meantime, I think it would help to accept that:
      1. This place is a mess, and
      2. You cannot make it better

      Focus on your painting tasks. Do them according to the (insanely bad) system. Communicate through the proper channels (your boss), and when he’s being a bottleneck just… let that work sit. If you are receiving email/slack/etc. notifications at all hours, turn off notifications after work hours (or log out of the apps, or leave your work phone at the office, or whatever version of this works for you). Respond to communication during work hours and only during work hours.

      For outside of work: do things that you like to do. Exercise can be a great way to burn off/release frustration, so try to incorporate your favorite form of exercise into your post-work daily routine. Eat foods that make you feel good. Spend time with people you love. Participate in your hobbies. Remember that there’s a lot more to a good life than work.

      Reply ↓
      1. SicktomyStomach*

        Thanks – I actually have an interview for a new position in an hour from now. As much as I would like to stay here and help them build a great company, I am not sure that is possible.

        Reply ↓
        2. A Simple Narwhal*

          Good luck!

          And they clearly don’t actually want your help – they may have said they do but their actions say otherwise. Also, unless you have a significant and direct financial incentive to build a great company, who cares? Not your problem to solve. Easier said than done I know but without that, making something the best it can be just for the sake of doing it doesn’t pay the bills or keep you healthy.

          Reply ↓
        3. Rage*

          I’m not entirely sure you CAN help them build a great company. Because you aren’t “helping” them at all – and they clearly can’t do it themselves.

          I agree with everyone that yesterday is the time to start a job search in earnest.

          Reply ↓
          1. SicktomyStomach*

            Hi – thanks for asking! I think it went well. Very good conversation, very not your usual interview. We were scheduled for 45 minutes and went a little over. Could have gone longer, but I had to stop for a work thing.

            Interestingly, Fergus has been suspiciously nice to me today. I’m not sure if he thinks he went a little overboard this week or what, but he hasn’t been on my back all day and when he has messaged me, it’s been much more gentle.

            To clarify a few things, Fergus and Andrew are the 2 owners and they run everything, with Fergus on the Ops and Product side and Andrew on the “face of the company” sort of side. I don’t have much contact with Andrew, be he is always very nice.

            I do think this company is not a great fit for me. I wish I could just leave and devote full time to another job search, but that isn’t financially feasible. I am hoping to have a nice 3 day weekend being as slug-like as possible and letting the stress of these past few weeks ebb a little.

            Thanks for all the comments. It really helps to do this reality check and see what y’all think.

            Reply ↓
            1. Shipbuilding Techniques*

              Maybe Fergus is so behind on everything because he is compulsively reading Ask A Manager behind closed doors. “Fergus–c’est moi!”

              Reply ↓
    2. Elsewise*

      If it was one guy instead of two I would have thought you were me from two years ago! I lasted five months at that employer before getting an incredible job that I’m still at. Hlao-roo’s advice is spot-on.

      Remember: Fergus and Andrew run this company. They have decided that micromanaging is more important than clients getting their updates in a timely manner. Your job is not to give clients updates, your job is to send things to Fergus and Andrew to review. Give yourself a strategy, set some parameters for how often you will follow up with reminders about each item, and then ignore it the rest of the time. Mute Fergus’s communications outside of work hours, and set aside soem time each week outside of work to focus on your hobbies.

      And yes, job search. This is not a good employer, and you don’t have to stay there for a specific amount of time. The worst other companies can say is no, but in the meantime if anyone asks why you’re leaving so soon, you can simply say that you’re looking to go in a different direction and focus more on design.

      Reply ↓
    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Are Fergus and Andrew unhappy with your work? Are you stressed and frustrated because they think you’re performing poorly (even if it’s only because of them) and you’re constantly being screamed at for essentially not swimming fast enough even though they’re actively tying weights to your feet, or are they happy/indifferent and you just know the system sucks and could be infinitely better if only they let you make some changes?

      It’s not entirely clear if the place is just a dumpster fire or if the place is a dumpster fire and they’re mad at you for it. But if the place is just a dumpster fire but you’re not potentially on the chopping block for it, can you just…care less? Sure it’s a hot mess, but if it’s not your fault and they’re not blaming you for it, there’s no sense in stressing yourself out and do what you can while you collect a paycheck. It’s probably not fun being poorly utilized, but if you need a job and your performance isn’t jeopardizing it, then just ride it out as long as you can.

      If it’s crushing your soul to be there either way, separating yourself mentally from everything (possibly try the anthropologist approach) will also leave you a lot more bandwidth to keep job hunting.

      Reply ↓
    4. Qwerty*

      Startups suck, I’m sorry! This is a pretty common scenario

      1. Start with figuring out how to succeed in this job. Toss out what was promised and write down what your job seems to be. Work on accepting that. Consider running it by Fergus to make sure you both have the same understanding. You can’t change Fergus and Andrew. Rather than discuss your frustrations with Fergus, work with him on a plan. You can’t save the company from Fergus.

      2. Set up a disengagement routine at the end of your day. You need to keep the work stress to work hours. Slack has settings to silence notifications during set hours, so get those in place. Do something that makes you happy after you get home / close your laptop for the day. If you have to work in the evenings, give yourself a set break for dinner and fun time – I used to block off 6-9pm for dinner and TV and found most of the things stressing me out at 6pm just no longer seemed to matter by the time I signed back on in the evening to wrap up urgent items. (Use your own definition of urgent, not Fergus’)

      3. EAT AND SLEEP. Not eating triggers not eating. Been there done that. If you skip a meal, find something nutritous like a protein shake or healthy snack to make sure you are getting all the nutrients you need.

      These are to help you get to a place where you can start job hunting again. Do not stay here – quit as soon as you find something that works for your circumstances.

      Reply ↓
    5. Strive to Excel*

      You cannot care more about the job than they do. Internalize that. Then remind yourself you are being paid to be a tea pot painter with a bad system. At the end of the day Fergus is perfectly allowed to be a dysfunctional mess with his own company. Do make sure that you have minimum work communications on your personal devices. If Fergus wants to Slack you at 4 AM, sure, but your working hours are 8-5 (or whatever other reasonable timeframe you are scheduled for).

      When you are done with the day, whether you’re WFH or in office, start a tangible physical ritual signaling to yourself that you are done. Pack up your laptop, wash your coffee mug, take a deep breath, and tell yourself “I am now done thinking about work”. Then pick an activity that you enjoy that your brain has to be a bit invested in but isn’t a huge mental load. Board games, making something tasty but fiddly, funny podcast/audiobook, pick whatever you feel is appropriate. And avoid venting about work as much as possible. As fun as it can feel, venting tends to settle us into a rut of thinking about the thing that frustrates you.

      Reply ↓
    6. Beth*

      I just got out of a job at a crazy disorganized, dysfunctional startup. Based on that experience, my two cents is:

      – It makes total sense that you’re struggling in this situation. Anyone would be. All the problems you see are real. You’ll get back to the competent you that you remember from past jobs once you’re out of this bananapants environment; not achieving that version of yourself here is due to the environment, not due to any issue with you.

      – You can’t fix this company. Your boss is running his team this way because he wants to. The owners are running their company this way because they want to. This is almost definitely not the first time their choices have caused major problems, and they’ve chosen to keep doing it their way anyways. You aren’t going to be able to change that (and that isn’t a reflection on you–it’s all about them).

      – The way to make things better is to get out. It’s OK to stay while you job hunt–I did, I needed the income. But you need to restart your job hunt. The good news is, every interviewer I talked to heard “I love my work, but I’m at a startup and I’m not confident in its stability” and accepted it immediately as a good reason to be hunting, with no further questions about my short tenure. You’re early enough in that you could probably just say “This is my first time at an early-stage startup and I’ve realized I need a more stable environment.”

      – In the meantime, you focus on survival. Sign off after 8ish hours (even if you’ve been waiting on Fergus all day and haven’t been able to move forward with anything). Take breaks. Find a soothing hobby (like tea, or little walks, or collage, or watching people make aquariums on youtube) and do it on your breaks. Make sure your grocery list includes things that you can eat with no effort. Get really firm about your bedtime. Go easy on yourself.

      – I know it feels like you could be let go at any minute if you can’t perform. I know that’s scary, especially after a long job hunt, when your finances probably aren’t in fantastic shape and you probably fear not being able to find something else quickly. I want to balance that with a reminder that a company that’s run THIS badly and THIS stupidly, probably doesn’t have an efficient process to evaluate people’s performance or let underperformers go. You’re probably in less danger than it feels like you’re in.

      Reply ↓
    7. Hiding from my boss*

      I hope this doesn’t sound stupid, but i’ve done this kind of thing before and it helped: You said you could write a thesis on this? start writing it! if only for yourself. it won’t resolve anything, but can be a steam valve.

      if you’re familiar with mystery novelist Sue Grafton (the Kinsey Milhone novels and other works), she said in an interview that she started writing the first novel about a murder she wished she could commit (she was going thru divorce). Ah, sweet revenge.

      Reply ↓
  21. Teapots4u*

    My boss quit a while back. The company posted his job and interviewed several candidates. I learned recently that an outside hire got the job. In the meantime, however, I’ve been acting in the role and will be until the new hire starts. And then I expect I will have to train/bring the new manager up to speed on how to do the job. Any advice on how to navigate this transition?

    Reply ↓
        1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

          It sounds to me like they got passed over for promotion and then anticipate being asked to train the new person. That sounds to me like a terrible place to be, and there are other places.

          Reply ↓
          1. Teapots4u*

            No, I’m not planning to leave. There are no other companies that do what I do within driving distance of my home, and it’s otherwise a pleasant workplace.

            Reply ↓
    2. Jiffy #6*

      Been there. Did not want my boss’s job. (After 5 years managing people, I have learned I do not want to manage people) Regardless of whether you wanted the position or not, I think the best first step is to identify the standard practices that you used to do the day-to-day organizational tasks of that particular job. Did you send out regular communications, track tasks or activities, who did you share information with, how often, on what platform? The main goal is to get these things off your plate ASAP. You aren’t getting paid to be the boss, so don’t do the work of one!

      Reply ↓
    3. WestsideStory*

      If you were not given additional compensation to take on the acting role, you can certainly ask the higher-ups for compensation now to do the training. But they’ll probably say no. Provide the new person with some kind of document for basic procedures, document access, and a short summary of the work in progress that you have been leading in your “acting” role, and call it a day. They will probably have their own ideas anyway.

      You should start looking for another job – it seems your company thinks you’re good enough to run a department but not good enough to promote you.

      Reply ↓
  22. Momma Bear*

    When I returned to work FT I did some googling to find the median salary for that role in my area. That was the lowest I wanted to accept. They could (and sometimes did) offer me more, but at least I knew my worth when talking salaries. I wouldn’t just ask for what you had, but look at what is currently being paid to folks in your industry. PTO being zero is not uncommon, but I would ask if you can bank 1 week upfront, even if it doesn’t impact how fast you earn the entire amount. You could also ask your previous employer to consider time in service (even if split up). Some larger companies will do that.

    If your manager told you that when you left, then I think it bodes well for negotiating. “As you know, I did XYZ Teapot Role for a number of years under Manager Name. I already have institutional knowledge of both the company and the product and would be able to ramp up immediately.” Etc. Remind them what you did and why they liked you.

    Reply ↓
  23. Staff Aug Blues*

    How do you contend with long stretches of being engaged to wait at work? The processes at this gig have a lot of down time built in.

    I’ve checked in and offered to help others.
    My supervisors are all pleased with my work.

    I’m bored and am worried about developing bad habits.

    Reply ↓
    1. JSPA*

      Do they have any international or enough non-English-speaking clients from a particular background that would make language learning a useful thing to do with the down time?

      Reply ↓
    2. River*

      Are there mini classes/webinars/educational things you can read/learn/watch that pertain to work? This is assuming your employer would allow you to participate in this. My employer encourages staff on continuing education if it will help them during their employment here at our company.

      Reply ↓
  24. Not looking forward to this*

    Any tips or advice on how to let someone go when you know it’s not going to go well. This won’t be a surprise – this is the end of a long PIP process, but this individual doesn’t take any responsibility for their mistakes and absolutely will believe that this is the company persecuting them vs. the logical consequences of their actions over several months.

    The only advice HR has provided is to keep it short, don’t argue, and make sure that the individual turns in company property and be escorted out of the building (my building has no security so I guess by me or one of my managers?). But I am bit concerned that they may react very negatively (ie, making a big scene before leaving).

    Any suggestions for how I can prepare to make sure that this goes as well as possible?

    Reply ↓
    1. pally*

      Plan out everything. After you deliver the message, what happens next? Do you escort them to collect their things? Is there a box at hand for them to use to put their items?

      Do you have a check list of all items they need to return? That way there’s no question regarding what you expect them to hand over.
      Will you allow them to ask questions after you deliver the news? How many questions? How will you end the conversation? What if they drag it out? Who will ‘stand-by’ should this person get violent? What’s the plan if they do get violent or angry?

      Consider escorting them out immediately and sending along their personal items later on, if you see things getting ‘dramatic’.

      Have your ‘speech’ ready and rehearsed. Short and sweet.

      Reply ↓
      1. TooMuchOfAManager*

        It’s a tough situation to be in, but the person will probably be relieved (if not happy) that there’s resolution.

        I would do everything pally recommended as well as:

        -Have someone else in the room with you. Your peer, an HR person, whomever is most appropriate and can verify what happened during the meeting.
        -Have information regarding last paycheck, unemployment (if the person is eligible), 401K, etc. ready to go and hand it to them. Keep a copy of everything you’re giving the employee.
        -Do not engage in discussion about why, go back and forth, etc. None of that will be productive. Stick to your talking points and then hand the box to the person along with the paperwork, walk them to their office/cubicle, watch them pack, and escort them out of the building.
        -Have the person’s access to the building and all company systems terminated immediately.
        -Do this as close to the end of the person’s workday as possible. 15 minutes before the end of shift usually works out best and it also minimizes the number of people who are around.
        -Stay calm. You know you’re doing the right thing, both for your employee as well as your company.

        Good luck!

        Reply ↓
        1. pally*

          End of shift (or close to it) is especially good! Helps to not prolong the meeting. Your soon-to-be ex-employee will want to go home and may not exhibit much drama as a result.

          Reply ↓
    2. Random Academic Cog*

      1) Make sure you have witnesses standing by. If the employee has ever been intimidating or aggressive in any way, make sure your witness is able to get physically involved if necessary.

      2) Be straight to the point, they aren’t going to hear you after “your employment has been terminated” anyway.

      3) Have a printed checklist to hand to the employee of all the discussion points, actions (e.g., returning equipment, collecting personal items), and any resources (some companies have job placement services, information on how to grieve/appeal the decision, info on applying for unemployment, etc.).

      4) Try to do this towards the end of the day so you don’t have to keep working all day and can take some time for yourself. No matter how earned or necessary, dismissing an employee is difficult for most managers. Not as difficult as it is for the person being fired, but I’ve been pretty traumatized when it got to that point.

      Sorry you have to deal with this. Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    3. JSPA*

      1. use a conference room, if that means no personal belongings to get smashed or swept onto the floor.

      2. box of kleenex.

      3. backup people outside the door, and a box for their things that you can quickly leave to grab (“let me get you a box, I won’t be a minute.”)

      4. “I’ve learned from working with you, and would love to see you thrive in a role that’s a better natural fit.”

      5. “Den and Bob can offer you a hand out to your car” / “if you have belongings you can’t carry today, box them up, and let [front desk secretary] know when you’ll be by, so we can bring the box out to you” / “we can’t hold onto belongings for ex-employees, but I can call you an uber home, as a parting gift” (whatever else works for you).

      If the employee has expensive work property at home, you probably have to ask the company how they deal with property return, and ask legal how they handle unreturned property, but you can give them a checklist of what’s expected back, read over it with them,
      check off the items that are at work, and have them acknowledge that the other items will need to be turned in by (say) the end of the week.

      Reply ↓
    4. Qwerty*

      Create a script for yourself and run it by HR. Here’s a quick sample:

      **
      Hi , thanks for meeting with me today. After ongoing conversations about your performance for the , we set up a formal plan in outlining specific goals in . Unfortunately, those goals have not been met so we will be parting ways, effectively immediately. We appreciate the work that you have put in over your time here. will explain the separation package.
      **

      For me, HR was always in the room and would explain the official paperwork stuff like severance amount, when the employee will receive the offer and how long they will have to sign, telling them that we will not contest unemployment, how we’ll mail their stuff back to them, etc. So ask your HR rep what you are supposed to say there.

      I’d try asking HR to attend the meeting. Not just for explaining the HR part, but support if the employee reacts badly and also they can debrief with you after on how it went. If you are worried about a big scene, pick a conference room near the front door, schedule it near the end of the day when the team is away, and maybe ask someone to be nearby to help with the escorting process. If worried about a scene, we send someone to retrieve urgent items like coat / purse from the desk and ship the rest to them.

      Reply ↓
    6. Pharmgirl*

      Can your manager join you in the meeting? That might help. Also, just keep it as short and factual. If HR is involved can they also be available to go over the logistics?

      Reply ↓
    7. Rex Libris*

      Be straightforward and direct, in a kind but professional tone.

      Plan what you want to say ahead of time. Keep on the topic at hand, and don’t entertain tangents about what was or wasn’t whose fault, what could have been done better, etc. Repeat “I’m sorry, but the time to address that is past.” ad nauseum.

      Have an HR person or another supervisor in the room with you. Among other things it provides a witness for what was said and done should it become necessary.

      Do not give them notice ahead of time about the meeting. It will prevent shennanigans, angry all staff emails, etc.

      If you have an IT Dept arrange to have the person locked out of their computer, email and other systems during the meeting. (Unless you have some other specific policy addressing this.)

      Stand by while they gather their things and have someone escort them out.

      Do it toward the end of the workday, among as few people as possible. Plan a route out of the building that takes them through the minimum number of people, if possible.

      It’s never fun, so keep reminding yourself that the person made their own choices, and you can’t be more invested than they are.

      Reply ↓
    9. Csethiro Ceredin*

      Seconding all those who said to have someone else there and to just firmly refuse all red herrings about historical grievances/arguments.

      One thing that has been helpful for me is to make plans for myself that evening, in advance. I won’t want to go to the dinner I pre-booked with my friend for right after The Meeting, but I will absolutely feel better afterwards than I would have if I just went home.

      Even when I absolutely agree with the firing it’s always a rough experience and I benefit from the support and chance to vent.

      Reply ↓
    10. Always Tired*

      As others said, a script, a check list, and a plan are all important. ALSO, as HR said, do not argue. When they try to argue redirect with some variation of “I know this is upsetting for you, but the decision is final. We need to focus on XYZ.” with that being the next steps. We can’t argue decisions already made, we can only do our best with the next steps. Packing personal belongings, turning in equipment, and hell, I even mention things about reviewing COBRA paperwork or which documents they have that they’ll need for applying for unemployment if they go that route. A lot of people don’t know what to do when terminated, and lash out. If you can keep the focus on next steps, forward momentum, and remaining calm, things go a lot smoother.

      Reply ↓
    12. ArtK*

      Don’t JADE. Justify Argue, Defend, Explain. Unreasonable people will use those things to fight back. “This is how it is, end of discussion” is the right attitude to have.

      Reply ↓
    13. Rebecca*

      A couple of ideas. First, once you have a script, practice it with a real person. Ideally someone from HR, but your manager would also work. Even having a script, it can be hard to form the words in the meeting, so getting the words in your mouth ahead of time can help.

      Second, be careful not to apologize. You may mean, “I’m sorry this situation is difficult,” but an angry employee may hear, “I’m sorry– this is my fault.” Instead, acknowledge what they are experiencing, and stick to your script if they attempt to argue.

      Finally, if you do ask someone else to sit in on the meeting, make sure that person knows why and what you need. They should be prepared ahead of time to know what role you are expecting them to play.

      Reply ↓
  25. HBJ*

    Suggestions on best online excel class or self-led/book study? It’s kind of overwhelming to just google “excel classes” or videos on YouTube. Does anyone have any they recommend from actual using as opposed to just “udemy” or “linked in learning.”

    I’m an advanced beginner, I suppose? I know how to do basic formulas, can expand/move/delete/merge/freeze columns or rows, use all the standard word tools.

    Reply ↓
    2. Alice*

      I suggest you identify some specific Excel features you want to learn — pivot tables? Graphs? Date formatting? Maybe ask the “Excel wizards” at your organization what features are important for their work. And then, yes, ;) look for LinkedIn Learning trainings about those specific features.

      Reply ↓
    3. Strive to Excel*

      On LinkedIn Learning – Oz du Soleil, hands down. He has a great Weekly Challenge course that posts a new Excel challenge every week; you download the file, try and work out your solution, and then watch the walkthrough to see how you did. It covers everything from formatting tricks to nested formulas. He’s also got a number of intermediate to advanced courses that are very easy to get in to.

      For general Excel courses, I don’t have a specific instructor, but on LinkedIn Learning look for the “NASBA certified” tag or for courses eligible for NASBA continuing education. Those courses have to pass certain standards of competence and as such tend to be better put together and taught by more professional instructors.

      YouTube & StackOverflow are great for spot-knowledge; if you want to know how to work a specific function or how to solve a specific problem, it’s faster to look for someone else troubleshooting that problem vs looking through a whole course. But there’s so much info out there it can be information overflow when looking for a whole course.

      Reply ↓
    5. is the math right ?*

      People learn differently, but my favorite way to learn a new skill is to identify a small project that would be meaningful, and then focus my learning based on what I need for the task.

      Reply ↓
  26. tuxedo cats are the best*

    200,000 federal employees apparently were fired this week, according to the ALT NPS facebook page.

    Job market about to get rough.

    Honestly if you have a solid private sector job you like, you probably are going to want to stay put for a bit IMHO.

    Reply ↓
    2. pally*

      Yep.

      The thing is, the work those folks performed wo’t just go away. Sure, the feds can hire in someone to continue to do the work. But I gather that is not part of the plan. So what’s the fallout gonna be?

      The complete callousness just boggles my mind. Gov’t workers are PEOPLE. Respect them! Treat them kindly!

      Reply ↓
      1. Chaordic One*

        Not only will the work not just go away but, even if the feds hire someone to continue to do the work, it usually takes a while to train them and get them up to speed. I expect everything to take even more time and for there to be backlogs of work that just doesn’t get done right away. I also expect existing employees to be even more stressed-out than usual and more burn-out. Probably more early retirements and the best people quitting for greener pastures elsewhere.

        Reply ↓
    4. CatCalendarFTW*

      fed worker here. sorry, im just going to use this to unload.

      I was officially hired as a federal employee less than month ago, and managed to avoid the cut offs for rescissions. however, I’m seeing on the news that more widespread layoffs are coming, and probationary workers (2 years or less) are on the chopping block.

      I’m having a hard time doing anything. all my must dos are complete, but I feel so unmotivated to do the other stuff (writing , analysis ) that it would good to get ahead of, just in case, you know, I do have a job in a month.

      I love my job. I love my coworkers. we all work hard, and I was lucky to be with teams that treated each other well and did our best to do right by the constituents we served. I feel RAGE that our work is being called “fraud, waste, abuse”.

      Reply ↓
      1. TrippedAMean*

        My work deals directly with a lot of feds and I’m feeling the same way. The whole thing is utterly insane. The ripple effects are going to reach everyone and most people don’t even know.

        Reply ↓
      2. pally*

        I’m angry that folks are quick to label the work of gov’t employees like that.
        Yeah, “abuse”, Mr. President? “Fraud”? Pot, meet kettle.

        Thinking that at some point, it will dawn on folks that hey, gov’t employees DO serve the public good. Probably take a giant shutdown of services to get folks to comprehend this.

        Reply ↓
    5. Busy Middle Manager*

      That’s not the total # that actually got fired, that’s the # of potential that can happen because they’re “probationary.” I’m having trouble finding an actual #.

      The actual #s I’m seeing are far lower, 3400 in forest, 2000 in energy, 1000 at VA.

      I mean, I’m not thrilled with people losing their jobs into a horrible job market, but 200K is way overstated. Fine to be proven wrong though

      Reply ↓
      1. Jax*

        That’s as I understand it, too.

        Here’s generally what the immediate, first in the federal workforce reduction seem to be (as laid out per one of the early EOs):

        1) first, the buyout offer;
        2) next, a focus on laying off employees still in their probationary period;
        3) a focus on firing WFH employees holding a second full-time job. This third point might be partly why DOGE went into the IRS yesterday, because that seems to be the obvious place where that information would be available for AI cross checking (W2s and 1099s for workers across all federal agencies).

        Beyond that is more vague, though some of the outlines are starting to take shape in various public comments.

        Reply ↓
    6. Former Fed*

      I got the termination letter this AM. It’s surreal. It took 4 months between application and my start date. I know they spent many, many more months before that trying to hire for my role. There is plenty of work. We manage grants and loans, and my coworkers are excellent, but it’s a big workload. And I was one of many in my agency and across the Federal government to be terminated. There already were a lot of issues with grants being frozen, this isn’t going to help when folks email me and get a bounce back.

      Reply ↓
    7. Maleficent2026*

      My husband and I are both federal employees. We’re nervous, but trying not to spiral too much. This past month has been WILD.

      Reply ↓
    8. JustaTech*

      This is terrible. All of that work needs doing! (Fires don’t fight themselves!)

      I’d really like out of my specific private sector job, but the job market is already tight and between firing federal workers and canceling grants, all the science-based industries are about to see a glut of experienced, motivated, desperate applicants.

      Reply ↓
  27. Hmmm*

    Has anyone worked for a company that didn’t have an overall great reputation… but for whatever reason is a great fit for you?

    Reply ↓
    1. spcepickle*

      I work for state government – in a gross old building (we have no heat right now and no budget to fix what is wrong with the heater), with very few of the perks and a lower salary than private sector employees get, with the public consistently telling me my job does not mater and that I am overpaid or lazy or stupid.

      I love it – I have way more time off then I did when I worked private. I have a huge network of people around me who really care about the work we do. We get to do really big cool projects (take apart a 100 year old drawbridge – don’t mind if I do!). I never worry about the company making money or having to sell myself like I did when I worked private.

      I think it is a case of what works for you and your priorities are not everyone else.

      Reply ↓
  28. Aggretsuko*

    So I partner with people in a unit, trying to learn their jobs. Most of the managers are refusing to have anything to do with the project, so the leader of the unit has been helping out and he’s been great. However, I need to get permission to do shadowing with staff members again, and while the unit leader agreed with this, he said that I have to work it out with one of the managers that hates the project. She has no contact with me and has been ignoring the request, and so far once a week for a month I’ve had to ask her boss about this. “Oh, you haven’t heard anything yet? I thought it was set up. I’ll poke her.” Then nothing happens. This week I straight up had to mention it to the big boss, and apparently he asked my boss if she was handling it and she said yes, she’s talked to the unit leader. But nothing happens.

    I’m pretty sure at this point I can’t get around Roadblock Manager and I’m just not going to get what I want here. Poking management has done nothing. But if anyone else has any suggestions….?

    Reply ↓
    1. RagingADHD*

      IME, you have to make ignoring you more hassle than cooperating with you, which means being a polite but relentless noodge that will not go away and becomes more and more annoying the longer they ignore you. Always chipper, always friendly, never showing frustration, just gratitude and enthusiasm because *of course* they’re going to cooperate, they’re just “so very busy.”

      Does Roadblock Manager have an admin who could get you on her calendar?
      Do you have relationships with RM’s direct reports who could advise you on how to get time with her? Or who could ask her when you can start shadowing?
      Have you tried all available means of contacting her – ping, email, phone?
      Another option in the repertoire is to check her Outlook calendar for free time, and show up at her door to say, “Got a minute? I just wanted to see if we can set up this shadowing time…”

      And of course, mention Unit Leader every single time. If you try all the above and still get nothing, step up the emails to 2-3 times per week and cc Unit Leader and your boss every time.

      Does the project have an executive sponsor above Unit Leader? You should probably drop their name every time, too.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
      1. Aggretsuko*

        I doubt it on the admin. Direct reports just say, “you have to ask my manager.” Direct reports would be fine with me doing it, but the woman has to have her fingers in the pie, apparently. I also literally don’t know the woman or where she sits.

        This is a good point, I’m just afraid of really pissing someone off and making enemies at a job again for being irritating :/ I’d rather go without asking than make another enemy at a job. I’m too aware of what happens with those.

        On the other hand, someone higher up than me just got assigned to a similar project and will also need to shadow, so maybe they will have to listen to him if he asks, rather than being able to ignore me.

        Reply ↓
  29. Interview clothes advice*

    I’m a woman interviewing at a university. I currently work at a school that’s apparently a bit old fashioned and people dress formally. Mean wear ties, for example.
    I had an in person interview a few months ago for a different position. I wore a navy suit, white shirt, conservative heels. The dean I met with was dressed in jeans and sneakers (it was a Friday afternoon) and I felt quite out of place and didn’t get the job.
    I had a virtual screening yesterday for a new position. one of the interviewers was wearing a sweatshirt.
    For the next round of interviews, obviously I can’t wear sweats or jeans, but I want to dial it back a bit. I was thinking keep the suit, but switch the stiff white shirt for a thin crew neck sweater and the heels for loafers.
    Anyone have advice or insight?

    Reply ↓
    1. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

      About 10 years ago I bailed on owning an Interview Suit and started interviewing in a classic cut dress (v-neck not showing anything, knee length, plain neutral color like black or navy). No jewelry aside from rings. Sometimes I put a blazer over it, sometimes not.

      It’s a look that’s conservative enough to fit in with suits but also informal enough to not look out of place among jeans & sweats – and you’ve got a dress you can just wear around.

      Reply ↓
      1. EA*

        I was going to say this – a nice black dress plus a blazer/jacket is a great middle ground. A full suit will always read as really formal.

        Reply ↓
      2. A Simple Narwhal*

        Agreed, my switch was to a high-waisted pencil skirt with a blouse. I found it to be something that was very professional looking, but not stuffy or formal. It’s a very flexible outfit that you can easily dress up or down depending on your shoes or throwing a blazer over it, or even how you do your hair. And like you said, because it’s professional but skirts the line between conservative and informal, it can work whether your interviewer shows up in a suit or if they show up in jeans.

        Reply ↓
    2. Random Academic Cog*

      Are you able to unofficially walk the campus a bit? Even within one department specific offices can range from formal business wear to jeans and polo shirts. If it’s anything research adjacent, clinical researchers (so interacting with patients and clinicians) are way more formal than scientists (who have to wear lab-acceptable clothes that regularly are damaged by small spills or mishaps). The norms vary widely and it’s never a bad idea to be one step more formal than the interview panel, but academia is really hard to nail down on this topic.

      Reply ↓
    4. Warrant Officer Georgiana Breakspear-Goldfinch*

      Depends on how senior the position is. That outfit is probably fine, but you might still feel overdressed, and you might want to go for a suit in a more relaxed material — a tweed or similar, rather than formal “suiting” fabric, or wear the suit trousers and sweater, but top it with a softer blazer. Even that might be at the high end of the scale if you’re an IC, but if you’re going for a higher-level position, that would be where I’d aim. The loafers are a good call, I can’t remember the last time I saw a woman wearing heels on any campus I’ve worked on.

      Reply ↓
    5. Annika Hansen*

      I work at a university that is fairly casual. I don’t know how to describe this vibe other than Eileen Fisher. You don’t have to buy this brand, but they have clothes that are between casual and business. Non-jean pants or a skirt, maybe a jacket (but not a formal line suit jacket), sweaters, blouses, flat shoes.

      Reply ↓
      2. ElastiGirl*

        I work at a university, and I wear a lot of Eileen Fisher. Soft cardigan over black pants (even black jeans) would be my call for this interview. And I do wear low heels on campus, but I’m very short.

        Reply ↓
    7. Qwerty*

      I tend to like suit separates – it reads as both business formal and casual chic for women. I can make it more casual by taking off the blazor if needed.

      My go to is
      1. Black blazor
      2. Black and white pants in a conservative pattern (window pane or checkered are my current options, both Old Navy Pixie Pants)
      3. Colored blouse! Jewel tones
      4. Black heels or ballet flats, depending on how much walking I’m doing. Heels make me feel more “on” but that might because I’m short

      For virtual, I set up a private video call with myself and test which shirts looked best with that angle and lighting. I usually wear a boat-neck style solid color shirt because I swear all necklines look worse on zoom and I need to contrast the black background of my large computer chair.

      Reply ↓
    8. deesse877*

      My experience with faculty is that they are generally so unaware of extra-academic workplace norms that they really only process clothing as “is it clean, unremarkable, and covering everything?” With the “covering everything” meaning loose-fit and high-necked for women, annoyingly. Some will also react negatively to clothing that reflects individuality, or looks noticeably expensive. In my field at least, the “interview suit” is long gone, and I would advise that a candidate wear unremarkable, neutral separates and newer shoes, and call it a day.

      Administration tends to be somewhat more concerned with clothing that shows an effort has been made, but cultures are also very individual to the institution, and even to the unit in question. I agree that a plain dress with a blazer is often a good way to hedge your bets. If you have contact with an EA for travel or itinerary, that can be a good person to ask. If you can find video of a minor function, like the introduction of a visiting speaker, that can also give cues.

      Reply ↓
    9. Nesprin*

      Depends on the university- in the south or an ivy or a private school, add a bit of formality. On a coast or at a public university subtract some formality. For example, the U California’s might rise to business casual on a good day but usually run casual casual.

      I’d suggest shooting for business casual- so cardigan/soft jacket and pants vs. full suit.

      Reply ↓
    10. Hyaline*

      I dress on the more formal end at my university–I tend to wear dress pants and blouse + sweater, or dresses + cardigans, or skirts and blouses. Many of my colleagues wear jeans or equally informal clothing. No one here wears a suit…ever. If someone wore a suit I would assume they had come to work directly after having been pallbearer at a funeral and I’d tell them I was sorry for their loss.

      I’d say–if you want to use what you have, keep the suit pants, ditch the suit jacket, and change up the top: suit pants with a nice blouse/shell and cardigan, suit pants with a crew neck/v-neck sweater. Or go with a dress and the suit jacket, or a not-too-stuffy skirt (maybe a print) with the suit jacket (this may be harder to pull off). Or ditch the suit entirely! If you have a not-too-stuffy, fairly basic dress or dress pants and top you like, go with that.

      Reply ↓
  30. Reliable job sites for escaping/fired feds?*

    I have friends who have already been removed from federal positions or who have decided to actively job search before that happens. One of them said she sees lots of potential jobs on LinkedIn, but she worries they might be fake because they keep getting reposted. I used to use Idealist and found it reliable, but I haven’t used it in four years (since my last job search).
    What job posting sites do people recommend, particularly for federal workers who might be searching outside now?

    Reply ↓
    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      My recommendation is that whatever job searching tool you’re using, use it only for a tool and not applications. I’ve looked for jobs on linkedin, indeed, and welcome to the jungle, but I always apply directly through the company’s website.

      Reply ↓
    2. Hlao-roo*

      Seconding A Simple Narwhal’s advice. LinkedIn, Indeed, etc. can be great to learn what jobs/companies are out there, but when possible your friends should apply directly through the company website. There are two reasons for this: (1) to avoid scam postings and (2) to avoid resume formatting getting messed up when the information is transferred from [website] to the company.

      Also, a job ad being reposted isn’t necessarily a sign of a scam. I think it’s pretty common for companies to pay for ads through a certain date, and then pay to repost the same ad if they haven’t hired anyone for that position.

      Reply ↓
    3. Stretchy McGillicuddy*

      My experience with LinkedIn is that I rarely, like maybe once, got an interview from applying to a job posting. I did, however, get a lot of really great leads and, eventually, my current job, from recruiters who reached out to me on LinkedIn.

      It’s a hot mess on there and there are some really terrible recruiters so you need to learn to screen them to make sure they are legit but I found it a much better use of my time on LI to keep my profile up-to-date and regularly update my online portfolio.

      Reply ↓
    4. Wellie*

      Go to the website for the company and apply through through there.
      That applies not just for LinkedIn but for Indeed, etc.

      Reply ↓
    6. Procedure Publisher*

      I found doing a Google search for jobs helpful because it finds the job on a job board and provides a direct link for the employer.

      Reply ↓
  31. Potatohead*

    Update to my situation from last week about pursuing an expected raise:

    I sent off my email Friday afternoon. Monday morning I found a pair of somewhat sternly worded replies from Payroll (telling me raises are not guaranteed and are never backdated, and that I should be sending any communications regarding pay through my manager) and from my manager (basically the same thing). Since the raise had never actually been promised or put in writing, only heavily implied, I was disappointed but figured that was it.

    To my surprise today, just before lunch my manager stopped me for a minute. He had spoken to the CFO who had agreed to increase my pay – not retroactively, but still good. It was also implied that this was separate from the annual raises given out to hourly employees, later in the year at an unknown time. So alls well that ends well I guess.

    Reply ↓
    2. Owlet101*

      Sounds like you should follow up on that converstation via email. So that you have it in writting that this raise is different than the annual raises. Implied might not be good enough.

      Reply ↓
  32. Just Another Happy Citizen*

    A hypothetical yet increasingly more possible scenario at my workplace. We have a public-facing information desk that gets incredibly high traffic. We are also based in an incredibly conservative part of the US yet have visitors from all over the world coming to our area. We already have some folks voicing racist and sexist opinions to our desk staff. We know how to shut that down (we’re mostly white and do not tolerate any racism or sexism or homophobia or transphobia from our guests). But, what would you do if someone came to the information desk wearing a shirt or clothing with hate speech on it, like a German flag from WWII or other similar symbols? Would you assist the person and ignore their clothes? Would you ignore the person? Would you tell them that you don’t help (insert hate group here)?

    Reply ↓
    1. Former Govt Contractor*

      I think you should check with your management to make sure that doing what you’re comfortable doing (refusing to help these sorts of folks) isn’t going to get you fired.

      Reply ↓
      1. JustMe*

        Definitely a question for management. I’m in the south at a major healthcare facility. A good workplace will develop guidelines for that if they don’t have them already.

        We already have an anti-violence initiative that includes hate speech, and we informed our patients quite some time ago that they cannot request a different caregiver because of race, gender, etc etc. And we got training on how to handle it.

        I guess next step is that clothing. Wonder if we can sidle up to them with a hospital gown? “Excuse me sir/ma’am/person, if you didn’t bring a change of clothing, we require that you wear this over your shirt until you leave our facility today.”

        We can’t really refuse to treat someone who really needs it, unless they violate too many rules at once. But we can by gosh set those rules and see who takes that as a dare!

        Reply ↓
    2. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      Can you say, “You’ll need to change or cover your shirt, or turn it inside out, to be admitted” ?

      Reply ↓
    3. EmF*

      If you don’t let them say things, why would you let them wear them?

      That said, if you want to be able to serve them* you could do like some restaurants and have a publicly-posted dress code and some communal plain shirts (“We do not permit clothing with the following types of slogans or imagery. If you do not have alternative clothing, let us know and we will lend you a shirt to wear while you are accessing our services.”)

      *You might not. I’m on the side of “get out” but I know that depends heavily on how much control you have over the workplace. See that “Nazi Bar” anecdote that floats around, and given that you’re not likely to be able to have both Nazis AND regular folk comfortable in your establishment, consider that.

      Reply ↓
    4. Hyaline*

      I think it depends on the information desk, the nature of the space/needs of guests, and your workplace policies. If it’s, say, the info kiosk at a museum and you have visitor guidelines for behavior, I think “Thanks for your question about seahorse feeding times, but I have to inform you that your shirt violates our visitor code. You’ll need to change or turn it inside out before I can assist further, as you won’t be permitted to wear that inside.” Of course, this hinges on this being actually true–you can’t make up and enforce codes of conduct from the information desk! If you don’t have something like this, maybe consider passing up the chain the concern that you need their back-up to create policy to keep the space safe.

      But if it’s, like, a hospital or something fairly high stakes, I’d swallow my revulsion and just answer the question. I’m not getting into a debate with someone on whether or not their tattoo or their necklace or their shirt is a hate symbol while they’re trying to find the ER or bleeding profusely or looking for their grandpa who had a heart attack.

      Reply ↓
  33. Evie*

    Does anyone here have an MPA? I have about 7 years of experience working in nonprofits and I would like to go back to school, but I’ve never been able to decide what path is right for me. I currently work as a mediator, but would like to explore advocacy and policy focused roles. That said, I know I can’t sit in front of a computer all day writing reports– I need to do some work that is community facing. Thoughts?

    Reply ↓
    1. Juanita*

      I have an MPA, and I think it’s a useful degree from a networking perspective if you get the degree from a top school (MPA programs are typically less competitive than other types of graduate programs at top schools, and as a candidate with some years of work experience, you’ll be in demand). It will also provide a refresh on advanced economics and data analysis, which is useful for many policy jobs. For these reasons, I think a 2-year program is much more valuable than a 1-year program.

      That being said, 2-year programs are expensive, and most of the more senior advocacy and policy jobs out there are desk jobs—but not all. You won’t make a lot of money in an advocacy or policy job, so taking on any more debt than, say, $20-40k means you’ll be paying student loans for decades, especially if the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program is shut down as many expect.

      To summarize: It’s a good idea if you get into a top school (or at least a top school in your region), and don’t have to take on too much debt. This is just my experience; curious to see others’ thoughts on this too. And I know you didn’t mention this, but a JD is also very valuable in the advocacy and policy space, and opens up prospects to higher-paying jobs in the future.

      Reply ↓
      1. Juanita*

        To be clear, by “not making a lot of money” I’m speaking in relative terms. Managers at my policy nonprofit with ~10 years of work experience plus an MPA/MPP are making about $120-150k, but many of us still live paycheck to paycheck on this salary because of student loan payments, high cost of living, childcare, etc. My friends in law, finance, and medicine are now making over $300k per year, some up to $700k or more, and have full-time nannies, send their kids to private preschool, are buying second homes, and in general have a very different lifestyle. So it’s all relative :)

        Reply ↓
    2. AM*

      I’ve been in nonprofits for about 14 years and got my MPA 7 years ago. One of the value props to me was the local networking; I went to a popular university in my city with a well-known Public Affairs department, and the program was designed for working professionals, so I got to know a lot of people working in local government and other agencies — including several professors. I also had the opportunity to work as a research assistant on a really interesting HUD-funded project (I had no prior background in housing), so I could apply what I was learning in a new way. My nonprofit roles have always been more community-facing, and after grad school, I thought I would go into policy. Somehow, I stumbled into fundraising instead and have been doing that since. I’ve worked for a community center, a government watchdog/advocacy group, and now a research institute where my housing experience often comes into play. I’ve actually encountered a few other fundraisers and foundation program officers with MPAs — I think it’s a helpful degree for the profession because of the emphasis on finance, data analysis, and gaining an understanding of the policy ecosystem, all of which really come in handy when working with donors and writing grants/designing programs. I had several grad colleagues who made the shift into policy after the program. I would definitely consider it in your position, especially if you can do an affordable program. Good luck!

      Reply ↓
      1. AM*

        And to Juanita’s second point, my alma mater recently launched a dual MPA/JD program, and I would have definitely considered that option if it was around when I was applying. It seems like most policy people I’ve worked with have JDs.

        Reply ↓
    3. MPA*

      I got my MPA several years ago after working for about seven years in a couple roles. I’m glad I did it but the two things I kept in mind were 1. you get out of your graduate degree what you put into it and 2. don’t go into massive debt for this degree.

      I applied to four programs (including one in my home state that was well-regarded and inexpensive) and then leveraged scholarship aid from one program against another until I had a mostly tuition-free offer (had to pay for one summer class) that also included a part-time research assistantship with a stipend. Between that and a subsequent internship, plus some freelance work I did during my first year, I finished with only $20k in debt (and I did a semester abroad — highly recommend! — and traveled a bunch that semester).

      I enjoyed most of my courses —some were more useful than others, but I liked most of my professors and got a mentor and several good friends out of it. As someone else said, it’s a good way to build a new network (especially if you plan to stay in the city where you study), and for me I wanted to have the flexibility to try different jobs during my degree. But other friends worked full-time during the program (one worked for the university and got tuition remission) and they still found it valuable.

      But seriously — points 1 and 2! I chose a slightly less prestigious program because of the funding (and I liked the vibe better — more collaborative than competitive) and I don’t regret it.

      Good luck!!

      Reply ↓
  34. Lady Lia*

    I’m looking for concrete advice on locating job leads. I’m at a director-level point in my career, but commensurate positions are rare on internet job boards. Being an individual contributor at very small companies combined with extreme introversion makes for an extremely small network, and I’d rather endure a painful dental procedure than attend a networking event. Friends are well meaning, but their advice usually amounts to, “Have you tried looking on Google? Maybe you could get one of those work-from-home jobs they talk about on the news.” I scour Indeed first thing every morning, but I’m at a loss for a better solution.

    Reply ↓
    1. Tradd*

      I don’t know what industry you’re in, but are there trade groups and the like that may maintain lists of open positions?

      Reply ↓
        1. Pay no attention...*

          AIGA and and UCDA are two graphic design industry organizations and they both have job boards. But sometimes the way to find a lead in graphic design is to work through an agency like Creative Circle or Aquent.

          I’ve been a graphic designer for 28 years and currently work in-house in higher education and Aquent was helpful early in my career. We currently hire out for project-based work with Creative Circle and we’re about to bring on one of those freelancers as a permanent employee. I belong to UCDA but haven’t job searched through them so I’m not sure how quality their job postings are.

          Reply ↓
          1. Pay no attention...*

            Also, I’m sure you may know this but just in case…make sure you have your own professional online portfolio or website that indicates you are looking for work: Adobe Portfolio, WordPress, Behance, Dribble… this also applies to director level e.g. creative director, campaign director.

            I know it’s a bit disheartening to hear, but I think the industry has few direct job postings because IME, employers bring on a freelancer first and then convert them to a full-time employee once they have built a solid working relationship.

            Reply ↓
    2. Lalitah*

      Are there any professional organizations in your field that you can engage for speaking engagements and thus get your name out there? Is your work amenable to consulting work? Maybe a consultation with a career counselor (not coach) might be in order. Public libraries have databases of associations through a provider like Gale (https://www.gale.com/databases/gale-directory-library). Don’t forget to check with the state library if your local one doesn’t have a subscription.

      I follow a good recruiter blog called https://www.asktheheadhunter.com/ and he gives good advise. I would also read up on Lou Adler’s The Essential Guide for Hiring & Getting Hired: Performance-based Hiring Series (https://www.amazon.com/Essential-Guide-Hiring-Getting-Hired/dp/0988957418 but it’s been updated) because it walks both the candidate and the hiring manager on the how to better recruit and how to position oneself as a good candidate. All the best.

      Reply ↓
    3. Alex*

      Do you have a sense of what companies or organizations you’d like to work at? I’ve always directly looked at the job postings on companies’ own websites for openings, and then applied through there.

      Reply ↓
    4. Chauncy Gardener*

      Have you looked at LinkedIn? If you are on it, it’s very easy to see where your current connections are working and to see if their companies have any job openings. You may find graphic design interest groups as well.
      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
  35. Lalitah*

    Just looking to vent here. I’m an administrative assistant working in financial services. I asked for a stretch assignment to move into financial analysis work and since 2022 was doing it under a consultant. They off-shored a bunch of admins and laid them off. Now the higher ups don’t want me to do any analyst work; I never got any negative feedback on my work in performance appraisals. But now they want me to concentrate on “higher-order administrative work” which hasn’t been defined. My mental health is spiraling down too (gestures wildly at the current US situation) and the job market is tough on older workers such as myself. I inquired about a job opening in another division: they said they’re closing all req’s in my high-cost-of-living-blue-state. I hate it here. I really really wish I could just run away. I just needed to vent. Thanks.

    Reply ↓
  36. HugeTractsofLand*

    I want to make sure the option for remote work is enshrined in my new contract, but I’m not sure how to phrase it. What language have you used? For context, I prefer to be in the office at least 3 days a week, but I’d like the freedom to work remotely at least 1 day a week and up to an entire week if I’m traveling to stay with family. I don’t want to leave it entirely up to my boss’s discretion in case I get a new boss who’s less amenable. Thank you in advance!

    Reply ↓
  37. Frankie*

    Hey all. I’m feeling frustrated with and disgusted by one of my clients. They are not holding the job of a woman who had a life threatening miscarriage and is ordered to 4 weeks of bed rest, when they have held jobs for men who have broken legs or been very ill and out for weeks. This is a blatant Title VII pregnancy discrimination act violation and when I point this out to them, I get radio silence. I run their payroll and feel a responsibility to their employees. Would anonymously notifying the employee of their rights seem totally out of line? This is just making me sick. They of course are my biggest client.

    Reply ↓
    1. ashie*

      Are you sure “radio silence” means “no action”? But if so, I would try to reach out to her through non-work channels. Appropriate? Maybe not. Morally the right thing to do? Probably.

      Reply ↓
      1. Frankie*

        You are right they may have changed their minds and not informed me. Everyone is very busy. I’ll check in before I take any action but the consensus seems to be to notify her.

        Reply ↓
    2. juliebulie*

      I hope someone answers you! I take it you don’t have a manager to discuss this with, and that you can’t afford to lose this client.

      I don’t know what you should do, but if I were the employee I would certainly appreciate a heads-up plus any supporting evidence you can share. Do you have documentation to show that male employees weren’t terminated for long absences? Can you provide that employee with the information needed to file a complaint (with the EEOC or whoever handles such things)?

      Reply ↓
      1. Frankie*

        I can provide documentation yes but it may be obvious it came from me. This is part of a larger issue with them shirking laws.

        Reply ↓
    3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Yes reach out via non company ways. Also tell her that if she wants/ does file suit against the company that you can attest on her behalf of whats happened

      Reply ↓
      1. Frankie*

        Thank you for weighing in, I will send her info if they say they’re not keeping her on when I check in next week.

        Reply ↓
    4. Hatchet*

      I’m on team ‘notify the employee outside of official work channels’ but I’m not sure how much, if any, you plant o share with her about your knowledge of the other holdings of jobs… I’d be as vague and/or as hypothetical as possible about that with her. Just encourage her of her rights and the Title VII and any resources you can share with her.
      For you, I’d worry about not sharing private company/employee information or information that the company could tie back to you, especially if they are your biggest client. FWIW, I think it’s great that you’re aware of what’s going on and are considering trying to help this woman who has been through so, so much already.

      Reply ↓
  38. Anon today*

    Anyone have tips for working with a very scattered boss? I’m newish to this role and my boss started after me. She is incredibly kind and supportive, but she is all over the place all the time. We talk about something, I get started on it and then she has a new idea. We’re working on a team project and she doesn’t meet the deadline for her part, which means I can’t do my part on time. Etc.

    I’m struggling because I prefer structure and clear priorities/expectations (been burned in the past), but I can’t completely change my boss’s personality. Help?

    Reply ↓
    1. HugeTractsofLand*

      I’ve been here before and, unfortunately, it means you have to be more on top of your game when it comes to remembering tasks. You shouldn’t *do* tasks for her, but you should matter-of-factly remind her of things. On the team project: “Hey Boss, I’m supposed to get X done before the 14th. Do you have an estimate for when Y will be done? Thanks!” And if that isn’t working, you could always loop in a more senior member of the team along the lines of “Hey, I’m still waiting on Y from Boss and haven’t gotten a clear answer on when it will be done. Could you try reaching out?” I guarantee they know the problem is her, not you. For all the priority-switching, I’d keep a document tracking your assigned projects- preferably a check-in doc- so when she has a new idea, you can point to what you’ve been working on and ask her what she wants dropped to make room for the new idea, or IF she wants any of X,Y,Z deprioritized to make room for the idea; the key is to remind her of all the existing stuff so she doesn’t think of your workload as a blank slate. If this happens ALL. THE. TIME. and you need to point to the pattern, it’s helpful if you can say neutrally, “I’ve put X hours into this project and it ultimately wasn’t used. Do you know why we pivoted away? It would just help me budget my time better if I understand what our underlying priorities are.” It could be that this role is a lot more ad hoc than past roles and that’s the underlying issue, but hopefully these tips maintain your sanity a bit!

      Reply ↓
    2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      One thing I have found with idea-forward people is that I need to adjust what I see as an action item because they sound like they’re saying “we should do this” but are still in their brainstorming phase. I once had a boss where I would wait until she had agreed on something three times before I moved on it, because the likelihood that she would change her mind or forget we’d had the conversation at all was too high otherwise.

      The reframe to brainstorming really helps. It’s not how I work at all but it is a “different people, different styles” thing rather than Bad per se. The great thing about idea-forward people is that they often aren’t stuck to their first thought and open to changing their minds. If you’ve ever had a boss so afraid to back down or show weakness that you end up implementing a harebrained scheme that doesn’t work at all, it can be nice to realize you have a chance to work through the pros and cons of the idea before forging ahead.

      One other thought I’ll add from the manager side: I honestly really like it when my staff are smart enough to remind me about deadlines throughout the process and make sure that I’m on task if one of the things on my plate affects their deliverables. You are right that it shouldn’t be your job to keep reminding them, but it’s worth exploring whether it’s something your boss might actually like you to do. If my own boss just gave me two new assignments I sometimes appreciate the reminder to re-prioritize properly.

      Reply ↓
      1. Lissa Landon*

        I’ve definitely been here – had a boss who really sounded like he was saying, yup, let’s do this, and then when it was done and I told him, he would start telling me that he’s been talking to other people about it and we’re going to need to adjust it in fairly major ways. I finally just started emailing to confirm, “Okay, are you ready for me to make this happen, or do you want us to let it simmer while you talk to other people?”

        Reply ↓
  39. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

    I’m being “recruited” into a very-part-time freelance opportunity in a field that I’ve always been interested in gaining some experience in. I’m aware of the usual pitfalls of first-time freelancing like what to take into account when setting rates, the tax issues, keeping expectations and commitments realistic, etc. But curious to hear any more nuanced or less-widely-published pointers y’all have about picking up a freelance side gig.

    Also – if there are other folks who do freelance marketing-type writing for nonprofits (not grant writing), I’d love any info you’re willing to share about your rates!

    Reply ↓
    1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      The rates for that kind of writing vary a lot depending where you are. In a big city you can probably ask for and get $100/hour. In my small rural state, I’d probably start at $40 for a newcomer, $50 once I had a few projects for my portfolio. If they want to pay less than $30, think hard about how much you want to build a career doing this kind of work and how much you like these people.

      Reply ↓
      1. WellRed*

        Hmm. We are a slightly different niche if writing/publishing but we use more if a per word or flat fee payment, although our rates seem in line with your suggestions. Geography doesn’t figure into it.

        Reply ↓
  40. cat herder*

    Low stakes workplace social norms question:

    There is someone on my team of 10 (Blanche) who is so frosty, it’s almost comical. I’ve said “good morning” to her whilst walking by her desk, to have her look up at me and stare daggers, and then say nothing. Also passing her in the hallway, I’ll catch her eye, smile, and say “hi” and she just grimaces and says nothing. I’ve heard from the rest of my team (all warm, pleasant people with varying degrees of chattiness) that she’s like that with them too.

    My question — is this non-civil behavior worth bringing up with our manager? Or just shrug, accept she’s kind of a beyotch, and ignore?

    For what it’s worth, a few months back I did bring up the issue of Blanche trying to dump her less-pleasant work tasks off on me. These tasks were very much not my job, and I was polite yet firm with my boundaries, but it got so harass-y that I had to loop in our manager. I assume Manager talked to her, since the behavior stopped. When I shared this story with my other teammates, there was a lot of eye-rolling, in a “yep, typical Blanche” kind of way.

    Reply ↓
    4. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Unless it’s truly bothering your work, I’d ignore it. Sounds like she is like this with everyone. She just might not like you the most.

      Maybe with the morning thing, she was working on something that needed deep focus and disliked that you distracted her.
      The daggers thing was probably because you talked to the boss and didn’t just do what she told you to do.

      Reply ↓
    5. Hyaline*

      Shrug, accept she’s kind of a beyotch, and ignore. My only caveat here would be if you have to work with her regularly, her brush-offs were actually bordering on or beginning to impact work, and clearing the air would be beneficial–especially as you think this has to do with thwarting her “offload my scut work” scheme. But since it doesn’t seem that you have to do anything with her besides co-exist, I’d just ignore. Sounds like everyone else knows she’s like this, too.

      Reply ↓
    6. RagingADHD*

      I tend to be extra nice to people like this, because a) it makes me feel like I am “winning” in some undefined way, and b) it tends to aggravate them more, which is also satisfying.

      And on rare occasions, a prolonged campaign of extra-niceness has actually shifted the person’s attitude. But don’t hold your breath.

      Reply ↓
    7. TooMuchOfAManager*

      This is one where I’d overdo the polite greetings and kindness. It’s sometimes fun to provide such a big contrast in behavior and let the chips fall where they may. Now, if your work is being impacted, of course, deal with that, but the saying hello, I’d do that extra smiley, extra nicely!

      Reply ↓
  41. Bzzzzzz*

    I’ve been trying to mentally detach from a poor performing teammate, “Edgar”. Our management team and immediate manager, “Jasper” won’t manage or hold him accountable. Jasper is hands-off and terrible in general. I’m slightly senior to Edgar and there is some overlap in our work.

    We’re about to launch Project Poodles, and I’m managing tier 1 and Edgar will be managing tier 2. This isn’t my project and I’m still trying to take as much direction from Jasper, though Jasper tries as much as possible to deflect as much of his job onto me. Now I’m running into Edgar trying to ask directional questions to me instead of from Jasper.

    How else can I politely say to Edgar to “please direct all questions about this to Jasper”?

    Reply ↓
    1. juliebulie*

      “Please direct your questions about this to Jasper – it’s his project” seems perfectly polite and reasonable to me.

      Reply ↓
  42. cele*

    Hi! I have a question about job-searching while pregnant.
    I have been casually looking to move on from my org for quite awhile, but I enjoy my role, so I was not looking too seriously. I got pregnant back in the fall, and figured that I would just stay put. However, since then, I’ve learned things about the org’s policies that just won’t work. I learned that four mothers have quit in the last year alone after being “talked to” about leaving work early (with permission) to pick up a sick kid. I also learned that they have ZERO flexibility when it comes to scheduling. I thought this may be an issue, as they already don’t allow comp time. But it seems that it’s really, truly “Don’t ever show up five minutes late.” I’ve never had this issue as I don’t have any kids yet, but I’m struggling to see how this could work with a baby. The more I learn about HR’s treatment of parents, the more I want out.
    All that to say, I’d like to move on. But now I’m 5 months pregnant. Is it unethical to start a new job, knowing I’ll need to be out in 3-4 short months? Plus, while I can schedule most appointments outside of work hours, I do need to take off some days unexpectedly for tests or generally feeling crappy. Is it just a bad idea to move on right now?
    Thanks for any insight!

    Reply ↓
    1. spcepickle*

      I tell people I am hiring for the future not the moment. So if you are the best person for a job I want to hire you, even if it means I have to wait a few months to have you start.
      My best advice is do NOT tell people in the interview you are pregnant, wait till you have an offer, once you have an offer you will need to work with them on time off as everywhere I have worked you have to build up your leave balance and FMLA only applies if you work somewhere a year, so you will need to negotiate your post baby time off.

      Lastly things are going to get crazy with the job market and all the federal employees who are looking, so it might take you some time to find a new job. Might as well start looking now and see what comes up.

      Reply ↓
    2. Ann Perkins*

      Definitely not unethical! They are not entitled to personal information during the interview phase. Assuming you’re in the US, 12 weeks is such a short time in the span of a career that it’s just a small blip so it’s incredibly short-sighted for an employer to pass over a good candidate because they’re pregnant. Plus, since a job search can take a while, it may mean that you can line one up to quit your current job but then start a new job after leave. I have three kids and also had an unsupportive environment while I had kids #1 and #2 and was trying to get out before we had our third; I ended up interviewing for a great job when I was about 12 weeks pregnant, disclosed after I got the offer and confirmed I could still take 12 weeks off even if partially unpaid, and the newer job has been much more flexible and accommodating to being a working parent.

      Reply ↓
    3. Hyaline*

      I don’t think it’s unethical! But it might be impractical–you’re a few months out now, but by the time you’re interviewing for roles, you may not even be starting until you’d need to take leave in a month or so. And it could prove problematic to be brand new and taking leave if, for example, your employer won’t hold your job for you. You won’t have PTO accrued to offset the finances, either. If you’re in the US, you won’t be FMLA eligible to hold the job if the new employer turns out to be…not flexible, so keep that in mind. If you’re relying on your employer for insurance, you wouldn’t want to leave Current Job early even with New Job lined up with a later start date to avoid the issue with leave. It might well make more sense to keep all the perks of the current job and plan to move on after you return from leave rather than line up a job to start BEFORE baby comes. So keep all your cards in play–if an ideal role opens up and you snag an offer, fantastic–but make sure you can keep necessary coverage for insurance and leave, and even then, proceed with caution that you’re not legally protected by FMLA (if applicable, US). And if it doesn’t work out, you’ve got great motivation to double down on the search after the baby arrives!

      Reply ↓
  43. TrippedAMean*

    Does anyone have a good, professional response to this?:

    My office has no standard procedures (it’s a problem, I know!) other than “ask the boss how she wants it done.” She changes her mind constantly and then acts like the new way is how it’s been done all along. So even though I’ve been here for a few years now, I asked her how she wanted me to do a fairly routine thing. Her response started with,” The same way we’ve always done it.” Is there a way to pushback on this that will sound professional?

    Reply ↓
    1. cmdrspacebabe*

      I would use a “Just to confirm…” style email for this – lay out what you THINK the steps are supposed to be, and let her correct you if she wants:

      “Sounds good! In that case, I’ll proceed as we did on [previous example]:
      – step 1
      – step 2
      – step 3
      Let me know if there’s anything else I should keep in mind.”

      Then you could hold onto the email and use it as a reference in future cases.

      Reply ↓
    2. Admin of Sys*

      Not unless you have documentation about how it’s previously been done. And the fix going forward is to start documenting it. If she changes her mind in the future about one of the steps, confirm with her you want to update the procedures.
      Standardized procedures don’t have to be top down – The higher ups can generally force exceptions to current practices, but there’s nothing stopping you from deciding to do things consistently unless explicitly told otherwise.

      Reply ↓
    3. Dancing Otter*

      Volunteer to write the process documentation – for her review, naturally.

      Not only will this make the job easier, but it’s an “added value” to mention when preparing for your next review. Plus, it’s an accomplishment to list when you update your resume or CV.

      Reply ↓
  44. Treble Sign*

    I’m trying to figure out if I should take technical writing classes to get my certificate now while I’m still at this AmeriCorps job or take it later when I’ve fully adapted. My supervisor suggested I apply again and I’d get more money for college if I take another term.

    This job also has a lot of downtime so I’m free to read as many work related books as I want, but the job sometimes bores me to tears. I struggled in the beginning to find work to do. I think I might just ask for more work but I kind of like the freedom of taking control of what I can learn during the downtime.

    Reply ↓
      1. Treble Sign*

        I didn’t think about that. Maybe I’ll wait.

        Situation at home has gotten potentially worse so I felt the urge to get the cert now, but I’m gonna see if my parent’s controlling behaviors happen consistently or maybe the situation I’m in is more a one off.

        Reply ↓
    2. former vista*

      If your job will pay for it (instead of using an ed award or the cash award if you’re a VISTA), do the course now. It’s better to get it out of the way and save the ed award for school.

      Reply ↓
  45. DVM*

    I have been of the firm belief that if your manger starts referring to you as a “rock star,” things are as good as they will ever get, this is a dead-end job and it’s time to pack it up. Today I got a box of dollar store chocolates from my boss with “rock star” on the heart-shaped lid.

    I’m already looking for a new job, but still.

    Reply ↓
    1. Qwerty*

      Odd – we like to promote our rockstars and/or try to find them interesting projects to keep them engaged and happy.

      Reply ↓
      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        Same. But if you’re working in a place where all you do for your rock stars is buy them dollar-store chocolates, looking for a new job sounds like a good idea.

        Reply ↓
    2. Alex*

      What happens if your manager refers to you that way soon after you begin? Many managers use that term just to show appreciation for good work. I don’t see how that plays into whether or not it is a dead end job.

      Of course, if you are unhappy you should job search! But…seems like a big leap to take based on just that.

      Reply ↓
    4. Beth*

      What’s led you to that belief? A manager who’s calling you a rock star without following through on their appreciation (via raises, staffing you on projects that have a clear trajectory to advancement, offering promotions, writing stunning performance reviews that get you noticed by leadership, etc) might be a sign that this is a dead-end role. But plenty of managers can give a compliment and also show appreciation in more tangible ways.

      Reply ↓
    5. Bex (in computers)*

      I’m in the same position – praised frequently for how much I do behind the scenes for the department and how much I go beyond my role. Yet I never get the public accolades, never get recognized in our weekly group meetings (even when for example I’m the one spending the weekend chasing down comms issues and sending updates across site), and have yet to receive a raise equal to or better than my colleague (even in terms of percentage) who literally does less than half the work I do and frequently naps in the office, as well as disappearing for hours.

      But hey, the boss calls me a rockstar in our one on ones and says he appreciates me, so I guess that’s all I need right? … I’ve been job searching

      Reply ↓
    6. fhqwhgads*

      Weird. I am accustomed to the phrase “rock star” to be used synonymously with “high performer” in office settings.

      Reply ↓
  46. Offsite Anon*

    My job involves a lot of event planning for my team. I’ve been with them for quite a while and I have a good handle on both what they enjoy and what’s appropriate for the company’s situation.

    However, my boss decided to do an overnight offsite, so my boss tapped her newest director, Fergus, to assist with planning the business meeting portion, but he ended up taking over planning the entire event. He told me to let “younger and wiser heads prevail.” Which, ok, if he wants to do my job, who am I to stop him? Plus, I initially thought that perhaps I haven’t been doing as good a job as I thought, and maybe people just didn’t want to tell me. I have expressed my concerns about pretty much…everything to my boss, but she’s dismissed them with “Fergus knows what he’s doing.” In fact, Fergus does NOT know what he’s doing.

    This is going to be the offsite from the Bad Place. The itinerary is awful, there’s no downtime, which means everyone will be crammed together for 12 – 14 hours at a time. This team tends to be introverted, which is to say, they enjoy socializing, but they NEED time to decompress away from others. The planned events are going to have very bad optics within the company.

    I know it’s no longer my circus, therefore not my monkeys, but I am dead certain that Fergus will throw me under the bus if everything goes the way I think it will. Or possibly not. I’m not sure he thinks of me as a person at all.

    Fergus literally shouted me down in the first committee planning meeting and made it clear during a separate meeting that my input wasn’t needed or wanted. I’m fairly certain prejudice and bigotry has a lot to do with his attitude towards me, plus him wanting to make his mark with such a high profile event.

    What do I say if my team complains to me about the event? How do I say, professionally, that I wasn’t actually involved in planning this event and refer them back to Fergus? (I am aware that Fergus is a swarm of bees in a trench coat and I regret not making a note of dates and times and specific conversations.)

    Reply ↓
    1. WorkerDrone*

      I think saying, “This year, I wasn’t involved at all in planning the event; Fergus took over the planning from the first meeting. Do you need his contact info? I’d be happy to connect you both so you can offer feedback.”

      Reply ↓
      1. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

        This. And frankly, I’d let them know beforehand. I would be shouting to the rooftops how Fergus has been totally in charge of this offsite, so that everyone knows who is responsible before it becomes a cluster.

        Reply ↓
    2. Chauncy Gardener*

      It’s actually GREAT that he shouted you down in front of everyone! You can be very direct in your responses when people complain. “I had nothing to do with the planning of this event, so please direct your feedback to Fergus or his boss. Thanks!”

      And then go to the restroom and “BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA” because Fergus is shooting his bigoted self in the foot.

      Reply ↓
    3. mca*

      If you wait for them to complain, you’ll look defensive and maybe guilty. Instead, before the event start telling everyone “I’m so excited to see how this event goes. It’s my first time going to an even that I didn’t plan. Fergus planned this whole thing!” or “I really hope this event goes well. Fergus was adamant that he didn’t want my advice and wanted to do things his own way. This event is our chance to see Fergus shine”. Basically loudly announce that you did not plan the event but don’t say anything about how you expect it to be a disaster. They’ll figure that out for themselves and put two and two together.

      Bonus points if you can get Fergus to publicly take credit for the event before it starts. Perhaps you can publicly “thank” Fergus for taking the lead on the event this year.

      Reply ↓
      1. Roland*

        Highly disagree, this is so passive-aggressive! If someone complains to OP, it won’t look defensive to say “hey, let me give you the contact info for the planner”.

        Reply ↓
    4. Hatchet*

      I’m team Point it all back to Fergus. You sound like the type of manager who I’d want to have for simply acknowledging what might be overwhelming for some of your team members, so you can always phrase it along the lines of “My understanding as of now is that this year’s off site will look different from previous years. I was not involved in the planning this year, so if you have feedback, send it Fergus’ way.”

      If you’re comfortable doing so, I’d also give my team a heads up that this year might have some long days with limited downtime so they can plan accordingly and mentally prepare themselves. As someone who would be overwhelmed by this amount of team time, is there anything you can do to help carve out some time for them, such as “We’re going to take a 1 hour block to have a small group recap within our own team” and then let it be a quiet, mental reflection time – maybe do you recap digitally so there’s more of a break from the overwhelmingness? Or can you give them unofficial permission to opt-out of some lower priority events if they need a break? Don’t get too worried about not making notes of the dates and times, etc…it sounds like you didn’t expect in the beginning that this event would be as much of a solo Fergus-created as it’s ended up being.

      Reply ↓
  47. Little My*

    I have a new co-worker. I really like them. (They actually DO THEIR JOB!) We were chatting on Teams today and I said “I hope you stay a long time” and they replied “ha! [someone else] is pretty upset with me!” Now I’m sad and worried that they’re going to leave. Change is hard.

    Reply ↓
    1. Momma Bear*

      Did they seem upset that the other person was upset? Sometimes people are able to take individuals with a grain of salt. I am not everyone’s cup of tea, but I have enough work friends that I’m not worried about a particular person or two. Also, let the new person’s boss know you’re happy with the work.

      Reply ↓
      1. Little My*

        it was hard to tell if they are upset since they are new and it was over chat. and yes I have told their boss that I’m happy – thanks!!

        Reply ↓
    2. Hlao-roo*

      Like Momma Bear said, they might not be too upset that [someone else] is upset with them. It sounds to me like they found it slightly humorous to have two different reactions from coworkers on the same day ([someone else] being upset and you hoping they would stay a long time).

      How does your new coworker seem to like their job otherwise? How well do they seem to be getting along with everyone else (including but not limited to [someone else])? I think those things are going to give you a better idea of whether or not they’re looking to leave than one off-hand comment about one coworker being upset with them.

      Reply ↓
    3. Alex*

      I wouldn’t read that much into it. One person being upset with you is not a reason to leave a new job! The coworker could have meant a lot of things, including just deflecting a compliment because some people just reflexively do that with compliments (I certainly do sometimes!).

      Reply ↓
    5. Lewis*

      Yes this is something I would say, both to deflect the compliment, and also to soften the blow to myself if someone really was upset with me. (Usually I’ll say it in a joking way, like So and so is upset with me because I gave them a gnarly task/I bungled something they asked me, but it’s part of working together and not a big deal.) Look for the tone here and overall context from your coworker, not strictly the words.

      Reply ↓
  48. Unknown Employee*

    I’m currently reading the Rage letter thread with great interest and an open Notes app, as my current job has decided to indulge themselves in a little goal post moving and double standards at my expense.

    (oh, this structure needs a complete set of accounts, the deadline was in September 24, and somehow this is my emergency and not the problem of person it was allocated to last summer, who is coincidentally part of the supervisor’s gaggle of lunchtime gossips? hmm)

    I’ve checked my employment contract and I’m eligible for twelve weeks of paid sick leave in a rolling twelve month period. My total number of sick days at this place? Two, at the tail end of February 2024.

    My plan as it stands is to work up until the end of our company year (31/3/25), and make sure I don’t carry any holidays over, then take sick leave in the new company year. How much? Depends how much more ridiculousness management decides to pile on me.

    (useless managers and excusing aggressive and abusive co-workers with the phrase “that’s just how they are”, name a more iconic duo.

    also, trying to write it off as “a Scottish thing” is lazy af and unfair on the multitudes of Scottish people who don’t go through live treating everyone they meet like something on the bottom of a shoe

    also, “well they’ve always been fine with me” when you literally outrank them, catch yourself on you absolute buffoon)

    Since they’ve also just dumped a massive backlog in my lap, I’m working through it but have chosen one complex and high volume structure to leave untouched, with a deadline set for when I’ll be out.

    Whoops. Sucks to suck.

    Reply ↓
  49. Jane Fairfax*

    I got a really strange religion-adjacent comment made to me at work this week, and I’ve been noodling over it, so I’m just going to process it out loud here. It’s a religious organisation, so not totally inappropriate but I’m a little weirded out. I have a really lovely colleague, she’s genuinely super nice. I don’t think she always has absolutely superlative professional judgement; sometimes I think she just treats everyone like friends who’re dying to be their authentic selves rather than expecting a curated professional version iykwim. Anyway, she’s a church-goer and I share an office with another church goer who happens to be good friends with this super-nice colleague. I came in early the other day, to beat traffic and to hit a deadline, and I caught her in our office leaving chocolate on our desks like a (very welcome) elf . I explained that I would have missed her if not for my deadline, but I was glad to catch her, because I could thank her. Important background context: we work at a Catholic school. You don’t have to be a practicing Catholic to work here, you just have to support the school’s practical and pastoral mission (which I do), and like many lapsed Catholics I fundamentally get the whole culture because it’s my background. Super nice colleague and her friend are not Catholic, but because they are practicing Christians, they do play more of an active role in things like the optional masses and spiritual events the school does. After I thanked my colleague for the chocolate, she mentioned she was heading to the chapel for before-school reflection and did I want to come? It’s not the typically done thing for people to ask this, (well, I’ve never encountered it in several years) because it involves assuming things about people’s spiritual practice. But I rationalised that she was probably only asking because she was about to go over there. I said no, and repeated that I had a deadline and she says “Oh I will just go, and reflect for you then, if you can’t come”. Like she was praying for me? My response was silent externally but internally something along the lines of “That’s not possible, to reflect on places of another person; was that just a brain fart?” We have previously discussed spirituality on one other occasion.
    We were at a social event and I asked what made her decide to move to our region and she said “It’s hard to describe if you’re not Christian, but I prayed on it and the answer was I should move here.” I don’t know how she went from assuming I’m not Christian to assuming I am, but maybe I’m simply overthinking it? I’m actually Wiccan, and very fulfilled spiritually but for obvious reasons, I don’t exactly spread that around at work to people who don’t share my religion.

    Reply ↓
    1. Momma Bear*

      I have a coworker who is a different flavor of religious than I am and I’ve decided to not entertain discussions about religion at work beyond things like “Happy Easter!” Granted, you work for a religious institution, but I think you can still keep any religious talk superficial and focus on the work. You said you don’t have to be Catholic to work there so maybe she’s just acknowledging that. I’d just be like “oh, ok” or “hm, interesting.”

      Reply ↓
    2. different seudonym*

      This person is using “Christian” to mean “member of a Protestant denomination or independent church that places great emphasis on a personal relationship with Christ.” In that worldview, Catholics are not Christians (I do not endorse the distinction and consider it to be a form of bigotry, but it is normalized for many).

      They’re also using normal social niceties (like saying thank you) as an opening to evangelization, and in the second conversation probably hoping that the mention of “praying on it” would prompt curiosity from you.

      Reply ↓
      1. EA*

        Yes, this exactly. “I prayed on it” is a classic Evangelical phrase. It’s really common for Evangelical Christians (especially non-denominational) to say stuff like that and see how people react. I think she’s assuming you might be Catholic or otherwise spiritual because you work at a Catholic School, but she’s also assuming (correctly) that you aren’t Evangelical Christian.

        Reply ↓
    4. Seashell*

      Does she really think praying is that hard a concept for other people to understand?

      I don’t think this is worth doing anything about, but I’d avoid small talk with her when possible. She doesn’t sound like the sharpest knife in the drawer.

      Reply ↓
    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Eh, the “reflect for you” might have bothered me a bit, but her answer to your question about moving was actually quite nice. It’s not that she assumed you’re not Christian– quite the opposite. She wasn’t assuming one way or another. She’s not saying it’s hard to understand prayer, she’s saying it may be hard to understand the aspect of prayer she’s describing– being called or compelled to do something. I appreciate that phrasing very much. I’m Jewish. And yeah, I don’t make my decisions based on prayer, so yeah, that’s a little tough for me to relate to, and it makes me very uncomfortable when people assume I know exactly what they’re talking about when they discuss their religious practices.

      Your co-worker sounds like a nice person who likes to leave doors open but doesn’t try to pull you through them.

      Reply ↓
    6. Hyaline*

      I wouldn’t overthink the chapel comment too much. She may well have been cringing to herself later (“‘reflect for you’ what does that even mean? Foot, meet mouth!”) I think the fact that you’re working in a Catholic school kind of opens the door to more conversations about faith and spirituality than would be normal or even acceptable in other environments; I’d chalk this up to comfort with the topic and awkward phrasing more than anything negative. Are you concerned she’s going to get weird and start proselytizing, or do you just want to keep your private life private? I wouldn’t borrow trouble on that front–her invite to chapel doesn’t necessarily mean she assumes anything, FWIW, as plenty of people find solace or peace in quiet settings like that. She may have just felt it was polite to invite you.

      Reply ↓
  50. Anon for this*

    My husband is a public school teacher (US) and was just informed his contract isn’t renewed for next year. This is his first year at this school. (Not a surprise — the principal has a fundamental disagreement about how his course should be taught. Although my husband implemented every requirement, he was still given “needs improvement” because the students weren’t engaged. Of course they weren’t — they signed up for an active elective class, and the principal was requiring it to be taught as literacy, so sitting and going through texts. This principal never taught in a classroom, and has been going through elective teachers in a hurry.)

    HR gave my husband a choice — accept the “contract non-elected” designation on his record, which leaves him the ability to apply for unemployment, or resign with a clean record, but no unemployment and he can’t work in that district again. (This is for the end of the contract year in June.)

    Although most districts are in desperate need of teachers, my husband’s age and specialty mean finding a new job isn’t a shoo-in. (He’s 62 and age discrimination is real; he also costs more due to the way pay bands work in education.)

    Is there anyone who works in education who has made this choice? How do you weigh blot or your record vs. eligibility for unemployment?

    Reply ↓
    1. No name today*

      I went the fired route when I was a teacher due to the need to collect unemployment, and could. Not. Get. Hired. In. Any. District (or state). Once the found out I was fired, I was dead to them, and this was 10 years experience, literally award winning teacher.

      And so I’d recommend taking the contract not renewed route. To me it sounds like a RIF, not a firing.

      Reply ↓
    2. EA*

      I would opt for the contract not being renewed for sure. Being fired can be a red flag in any field, but especially in fields with any sort of potential child protection concern. Schools have to be cautious.

      Reply ↓
    3. Reader*

      Teacher who sits on my school’s hiring committee: having a firing on your record is a huge red flag, possibly an insurmountable one. I know lots of people who have been non-renewed (including situations where the *job* wasn’t cut, but the educator who held it was let go, which in my district is not classified as a firing), who have gone on to find other jobs, but I don’t know one person who has been *fired* and found another job in teaching. (Granted: I cannot speak to the range of possible factors that led to that outcome. It’s possible the firing was the sole factor; it’s also possible that there were multiple factors at play.) I’m not aware of anyone my school has interviewed in the time that I’ve participated in hiring who has had a firing as part of their teaching work history; I do know that, at least in my district, poor references from principals who have poor reputations among their peers are something good candidates can overcome (we’ve hired two!), but poor references from principals with solid reputations haven’t resulted in job offers, even if the interview was solid. Obviously, YMMV on this; the situation where you are may differ.

      If your family is able to risk the income loss from not being eligible for unemployment, it seems that would be the better option here. I opted for a category called “voluntary excess” about 5 years ago, which allowed me to resign my position without resigning from the district; I was eligible for hire in any job I was qualified for but was not eligible for unemployment if I didn’t get hired, and the district was not obligated to place me in a suitable role if nobody hired me.

      (If I had been RIFed or “involuntarily excessed,” I would have been eligible for unemployment, but the district would have been able to assign me to any job I was qualified for if I wasn’t hired into a new job by the last day of school. I wasn’t willing to risk going from the frying pan into the fire, and could take the hit from being ineligible for unemployment. Also, I was a younger special educator [though somewhat expensive – I have an M.Ed and a lot of additional credits], so I was fairly confident that I’d be able to find another job, whether in my district or elsewhere.)

      It sounds like my situation doesn’t precisely match what your family is facing, but I hope this is somewhat helpful as you consider the options.

      Reply ↓
    4. TeachingJobs*

      He’s going to have real problems finding a new job because of the pay band issues; my dad had a similar issue (one of the downside of unions – you can’t accept less money because you need a job) when lost his job for similar reasons.

      I would look at how much unemployment pays in your state (it varies a lot) and if it’s financially worth it. Also know that he will need to be actively searching for work in ways that likely means he’ll have to also look at non-teaching jobs and he probably can’t turn down a job and keep collecting unemployment even if it’s a job that doesn’t suit him.

      I would look for leave replacement positions as well as regular teaching jobs, and private schools are often less picky/more flexible than public schools if there are options near you but I wouldn’t count on finding another job before reaching retirement age. Did he work in the system long enough for a reasonable pension? If so, that may be more than unemployment so that may be another option.

      Good luck

      Reply ↓
  51. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

    Well, my “new” job became my old job a week ago, after hours, due to a RIF and restructuring. I was laid off–no performance issues, discipline, etc. Simply a lack of viable work for my team and a company-wide shift towards in-building Teams video calls. I made it through the first week of the crucible and now find myself interviewing again and, for the first time in 15 years, without a permanent, full-time remote position to fall back on (or use as leverage in negotiating). My best prospects are mainly hybrid (at least in the departments I’m targeting, IT/Development). At least for the short run, I am accepting of this. I’ve never actually worked hybrid before; I’ve only worked 100% onsite or 100% remote.

    I’m trying to prepare for questions about being prepared to go back into the office part-time. Any suggestions on how to address those?

    Reply ↓
    1. Momma Bear*

      I’d ask them to define hybrid. I’ve worked a 3/2 schedule and a 4/1 schedule and a “well, if you’re sick but we need you I *guess* you can log in” schedule. I think hybrid works best if you have standard days/hours. You know what FT either direction looks like so you can speak to being comfortable with that but enjoying the flexibility that hybrid offers. Ask if you will be hot desking or if you’ll have an office/cubicle to yourself. Ask how they handle materials and hardware and access back and forth. I once had a laptop with a docking station for home use. Ask about standard on-site things like parking. Ask if there will be times/days you will have to change your schedule (like to attend a Town Hall). Part of my WFH agreement is that I pivot to in office whenever the situation requires.

      Reply ↓
    2. Hlao-roo*

      Did you have any issues with being 100% onsite when you had those 100% onsite jobs? Is there anything you liked about being onsite vs remote? Have you switched from a 100% remote job to a 100% onsite job before? I think something bland and true (or true-ish) along the lines of:

      “I worked 100% onsite in a few previous jobs and it’ll be a nice change of pace to be in an office again.” (maybe a joke about your lunch-packing skills being a little rusty if that’s your sense of humor)

      “I find it’s easier to [get know my coworkers/learn the company systems/etc.] in person, so I’m glad this is a hybrid job.”

      “I worked 100% onsite in [job Y] after working 100% remote in [job X], so I don’t foresee any issues with this switch from remote to hybrid.”

      Reply ↓
      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Unfortunately, no, onsite didn’t really work as well as remote has for me. Between time lost to commuting, increased distractions in the office, and, for lack of a way of putting it better, self-consciousness, I have never been as productive on-site (I was actually sent home from one job to work remotely because I just couldn’t get through as much work on site). I don’t really want to steer the conversation that direction; I suspect I’ll come across as someone who’s interviewing Hybrid with the intention of either negotiating remote later or going full-remote on the down low. Neither is true; while I would love to remain remote, I’m only willing to do so above-board.

        I’ve never gone on-site again for more than a few days at a time.

        Reply ↓
        1. Hlao-roo*

          Hmm, maybe “I successfully worked onsite from [year] to [year] and don’t anticipate any problems working a hybrid job. Also, I was excited to apply to this position because [thing in job posting unrelated to hybrid/onsite/remote work].”

          The first part isn’t literally the truth but it conveys “I am willing to work a hybrid job” what is really what they want to know. And then you change the topic to things you are actually excited* for about this job, and that will hopefully minimize any probing into “how do you feel about commuting really??”

          *excited might be too strong a word, but at least plausible positive

          Reply ↓
  52. Treehugger*

    How can I coach an intern who won’t take on an assignment because of religious beliefs? We have a stipended college intern at our small-but-mighty non-profit. The position description is support programming for the local tea-drinking community (outreach, logistics, attending). After they joined, we decided to host workshops for caregivers of queer tea-drinking teens – how to help their teens navigate cafes and teashops, how to swap out gendered mugs for rainbow ones… The intern does not want to be involved in any way that is supportive of “the content,” because of “her faith.” They aren’t _not_ meeting position expectations, in that they didn’t know we’d be doing workshops in support of queer tea-drinkers. I can live without their support on this project, functionally. I do, however, want to provide feedback on how, while they can have a long career never working with queer tea-drinkers, it does a disservice to the work, to the community, and to their value to organizations. Can I do this if their request is based on religious beliefs? What do I need to be thinking about? (We don’t have HR, just me.) In all other aspects, the intern has been great – responsible, mature, on-task. They do have a professor mentoring them, but I don’t have any relationship with that person.

    Reply ↓
    1. So Tired Of God's Specialest Princesses*

      I mean, is she meeting position expectations? Is she doing her tasks? Has she been refusing tasks? Because if she’s not actually doing her job, then you have reason to fire her, even if the reason she’s not doing her job is her religion. You hired an intern to perform tasks; and it sounds like her religion prohibits her from performing the tasks.

      Or you could just give her the feedback that the job market is about to become very competitive and her attitude toward this project is 100% going to be part of any reference you give her in the future. You may also want to hint that she should probably be a little less precious about “her faith” and “her work” if she wants to support the expensive hobby of sleeping indoors and eating food. Give unto Caesar’s, give unto God what is God’s, after all.

      Reply ↓
    2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Treehugger, can you say more about what outcome you want here? I am jumping right to “explain to them that part of the job involves doing this task and they don’t get to decide to opt-out” or a bigger conversation about the difference between having religious beliefs and having to perform work tasks, but I’m not sure if that’s what you are looking for.

      Reply ↓
      1. Momma Bear*

        I’d honestly want to know what drew her to this industry.

        There’s been instances in the news about pharmacists refusing to fill prescriptions based on personal believe. Pharmacies may allow them to step away but they are *supposed to* refer them to someone else who can refill it for them. Do you have the staffing for her to pass her duties? You say you don’t need her on this project and can shift. What is the impact of that on everyone else? Do you have an SOP if she gets a request she does not want to fulfill?

        If it means she will not get the full experience of this internship, I’d be upfront about that, both to her and her professor if they are expecting certain criteria for credit. I would also not change anything about the decor, or the events or whatever you are doing. If she decides she can’t even be in the room with a rainbow cup, then this is not the internship for her.

        Reply ↓
    3. Pay no attention...*

      Just in general I would let her know that in whatever organization she ends up in for her career is going to involve working with members of society and humanity really that she won’t like or agree with for a myriad of reasons. By working with those human beings, she is not making any moral or religious endorsement about their existence, their religious beliefs, or any decisions they make. She will continue to meet members of certain groups of people that she disagrees with throughout her life whether she is aware of it or not… as clients and coworkers and bosses and neighbors, etc… and she needs to learn how to function at her job professionally without refusing services for any reason short of her own personal safety.

      Reply ↓
      1. HannahS*

        This is where I land. I don’t think you’ll be able to change her beliefs in a conversation. But if you can teach her not to deny service to people with whom she disagrees, then you’ve helped her grow, even if that doesn’t feel like enough.

        I don’t know what field you’re in (I assume not actually tea-drinking,) but I’m in a service profession, and it makes you face the “even THEM?” question a lot. I’ve provided thorough, compassionate (or at least, seemingly-compassionate) medical care to all kinds of people. I don’t want to set off the spam filters, but all kinds of -ists and -philes and murderers and abusers have received care from me. Ultimately, my belief that everyone deserves medical care is greater than my personal negative feelings. As Momma Bear said, my limit is my personal safety and that of my colleagues. Facing that question might actually help your colleague think about her values, even if it’s not something you address directly.

        Reply ↓
      2. Reba*

        Yes, I think you can have this conversation in the framing of growth and future career stuff and her growing awareness of issues she will face in the field. It’s supposed to be a learning experience after all.

        In your talk on this, you could read and discuss together the letter about the person who didn’t want to give a tour to an objectionable (to the employee) political figure. I will look for it and link.

        But in the current political climate (especially depending on your org’s funding sources) I would be very clear about it *not* affecting your view of her “meeting position expectations.” I suppose I’m sorry to say, I certainly would not fire her over this unless you want to risk a social media and maybe news shitstorm. Regardless of the merits or actual legal issue — you have no HR or counsel supporting you? don’t touch religion with a ten foot pole.

        Meanwhile, just assign her to different things. In my workplace it’s stressed to us that interns can do substantial but only additive work – they are not supposed to do core work that would be done by staff if the intern wasn’t there. In other words, you being able to do the events yourself would be expected, it’s not like a bad outcome of the internship. Not every intern is a stellar worker in every area (or sometimes any area, ha), so IME each internship involves shifting the duties and expectations, sometimes quite a bit. I’m not sure I’m explaining myself well here, I am not saying “just give up and keep quiet about it” I’m saying every intern/person has some limitations, the internship is temporary, the next one will have different interests and talents.

        This is totally an awkward situation and you have my sympathy.

        Reply ↓
    4. Emperor Kuzco*

      Would you allow a regular employee at your non-profit to opt out of this task because it went against their beliefs? Also what are your non-profit’s guidelines and mission statements? Does the intern opting out break those?

      As an aside, as a queer person, it’s so frustrating to hear the “my religion” excuse from people so that they can be bigots and jerks. Image if queer people were like, “oh you’re heterosexual? I can’t sell you this hamburger. It’s against my beliefs.” They would be fired in a heartbeat!

      Reply ↓
    5. tabloidtainted*

      I wouldn’t. It would be different if the situation was that she denied a service to a member of the community because of their orientation. But she didn’t.

      Reply ↓
  53. Justin*

    Got the same top bonus as last year, also got to talk up my work to the CEO this week.

    My direct report started on sept 30, and only was able to because I ran the hiring process very efficiently. This matters because employees are eligible for bonuses/raises if they start before Oct 1st, so this really benefited her (even if the bonuses are pro-rated for those who don’t work the full year, which makes sense).

    Just a generally good week at work, and even with All That’s Happening, we are a nonprofit that’s going to continue to do good work at supporting communities, even if we change various vocabulary so the nonsense people leave us alone.

    It’s hard to be positive in dark times but they want us to be miserable, so I refuse. What’s a work win you’ve had this week?

    Reply ↓
    1. juliebulie*

      Despite my yips I just finished something. Not exactly a huge win, but a step in the right direction.
      I don’t even know if I did it right. I guess I will find out!

      Reply ↓
    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’ve spent the last three-ish weeks in Wisconsin in training for my new job. But I am home now and don’t need to go back, plus I’ve been doing phenomenally with the training so far. I finished all of the projects I needed to successfully complete, and all that’s left are the exams – and those are booked in the next week and a half. (And then I may or may not have any actual work to do until our next stage kick-off in mid-April. Heh.)

      Reply ↓
    3. Jeneral*

      “It’s hard to be positive in dark times but they want us to be miserable, so I refuse.”

      I like the way you phrased that and plan to remember it! I had a first round interview for a new job and I think it went well.

      Reply ↓
  54. Not Linked In Enough*

    What is the current thinking on Linked In accounts? I am job hunting and working at a temp agency. I found out my local library offers the Linked In trainings for free. Would it be better to make a Linked In account and work on the trainings through that? Do you recommend having a Linked In account?

    Reply ↓
    1. Alex*

      I don’t think just making a linkedin account gives you access to the trainings. You have to pay for them.

      Just use the library ones!

      Reply ↓
      1. Momma Bear*

        I’d do the library ones. Your library may offer other resources for free – ask them what subscriptions are available in general. Sometimes everything from movies to newspaper subscriptions.

        Reply ↓
    2. Elizabeth West*

      I agree with Alex; you can’t do them for free through LinkedIn. Use the library resource.
      As far as having an account, I have one but I only use it to look for jobs and promote myself when I’m job hunting. I tend to update my profile when I get a job and then ignore it — it generates too many notifications, has a lousy interface, and it’s annoying in general. If you can get by without it, then I wouldn’t bother. Of course you could always make a basic profile and try it — if you don’t like it, you can delete the account.

      Reply ↓
    3. Been linked in for a long time now*

      I recommend having a LinkedIn account, because there are people who do use them to recruit or vet applicants. I have not found the trainings to be useful, but maybe others do.

      Reply ↓
  55. Anonymous Peacock*

    Does anyone have strategies for managing operations when a staff person has a chronic illness? I don’t know the details – I assume they are covered under FMLA. But my supervisor has been out sick for an extended period (3+ weeks) once a year since she started working with us, plus she typically takes a sick day or a partial sick day about once a week. The impact on my work is starting to get hard to manage – some impacts are: I’m losing track of things because it takes so long to get a response, I’m having to just drop or fully cancel some things because I can’t get approval in time, and I’m doing extra work to both fill gaps myself and to get someone else to fill in gaps. I’m sure her supervisor is aware but I doubt there is anything he can do — he does not have the bandwidth or the right experience/background to directly fill most of her responsibilities. When I’ve tried going to him for decisions in my boss’s absence, he has sometimes given me directions that I know are off, because he doesn’t have the same on-the-ground knowledge of our work. Can I bring up that this isn’t sustainable for me, or because it is a medical situation, do we just have to live with it?

    Reply ↓
    1. spcepickle*

      You should bring it up – Medical issue or not. Just make sure that you focus on how your work is being effected and if you have have some solutions. If someone who reported to one of the supervisors who reports to me was having this issue I would 100% want to know about it.

      I would start by setting a meeting with your direct boss, explain what got dropped or fully canceled because you did not get approvals on-time. Ask for priorates and brainstorm ideas on how you and your boss can be keeping things moving forward without balls being dropped. Is this a shared spreadsheet, is there some of check process that needs to be implemented, is there an on-line process you can use that allows her to approve things more easily? After that meeting make sure you are sending follow up emails on things that are still going wrong so there is a paper trail, cc your grand-boss when needed.

      Reply ↓
      1. Momma Bear*

        Do you have duplication of duties? It sounds like for key work products you need another person she can pivot to. Even if that person pays no mind 90% of the time, they could be cc’d on critical things so they can pick up in the event of an absence. You know this will happen so ask her/your boss how to set up the team to be able to pivot quickly and effectively. And/or maybe she should trade duties with someone. I agree that you should meet with at least your boss to discuss the impacts to you and how to handle it. It’s not to say she can’t be accommodated but that maybe those workflows need adjustment.

        Reply ↓
    2. Chauncy Gardener*

      I would just directly bring it up with your supervisor. Just ask what she recommends you do. And also maybe look at your tracking process so you can show clearly the items that are falling through the cracks and/or be more efficient with the time you do have with her.

      Reply ↓
  56. The Office Vegan*

    How do I handle an employee who is constantly sick? Not with a chronic illness, but various maladies every. single. week. On average she misses 5-6 days per month, but sometimes it’s even more than that. The last 3 weeks in a row she has called out at least 2 days per week, this week it was 3 days missed. It was norovirus. Then food poisoning. Then a cold. Then her kid was sick. Then she got what the kid had. Then the kid’s school was closed. I do believe she is genuinely sick, and we are not an organization that requires medical documentation, we just expect employees to be adults and self-manage. She has a partner, and parents who live very close, but she is the default parent that takes off work when her kiddos are sick.

    It is now coming to the point where she is considered unreliable, and her coworkers and clients default to this employee’s co-worker. However, the co-worker is due to leave for maternity leave next month, and will be out for 6 months. We need her to step up and be here reliably. BUT, we do understand that she can’t come to work with norovirus or food poisoning, etc. I just don’t know how to broach this conversation that she … needs to stop being sick so constantly? I don’t even know what to say. We have lots of parents with kids her age, and nobody is out sick even close to the frequency she is.

    We need her to step up and be here, and take ownership of the job, especially while her co-worker is gone the next 6 months. But I don’t know where to begin.

    Reply ↓
    1. Qwerty*

      Is there an option to work remote when sick, even if it is just a partial day? I find a lot of times when I take a sick day I’m actually good to work close to half day (start late, work 2hrs, nap for lunch, work 2hrs, early sign off). Not enough to stay on top of work or work on anything complicated, but good for staying up to date on emails and the smaller tasks that build up, which would help prevent her becoming a blocker for other people.

      Talk to HR if you haven’t already because this will be a tricky conversation where you’ll need to be careful about phrasing. I’m not sure if this qualifies for FMLA, but HR will know whether to recommend it.

      This winter has been rough – I feel like most people I know have been permanently sick, especially if they spend any time around kids.

      Reply ↓
      1. The Office Vegan*

        Remote work isn’t an option – the job requires someone be physically present. Technically it could be one person in this job, but it’s not feasible because we *absolutely* need someone here every day, and of course people get sick and need vacations, which is why we have 2 people for effectively 1 position, with the idea that they share the workload and cover for one another.

        Earlier this week the reliable co-worker had a doctor’s appointment scheduled, and unreliable was sick again. My pregnant employee was trying to cancel her important pre-natal appointment to be present because were was an important client meeting. I absolutely did not allow her to cancel her appointment so I ended up stepping in to cover this meeting and her position, while she was out, and then she rushed back in to work as soon as the appointment was over to wrap up the rest of the day.

        Unfortunately our HR isn’t effective and FMLA doesn’t solve the problem. The problem is I have 2 people in this position, one is gone effectively 1 week out of every month, and the other is about to be on maternity leave. We are going to have an assistant come in to help cover the maternity leave, but it’s not something an assistant can do unsupervised for any long period of time. The job requires quite a bit of on-the-job technical experience, fielding clients with different complex needs, dealing with and understanding of the job that can only be gained with experience over time. It typically takes 4-5 months for someone to fully be able to manage on their own. Even my subbing in earlier this week was a stretch, but I have 10+ years of experience in the industry so I was able to field the job for a morning. I can fill in during an emergency, but I can’t be the go-to person the 6 days a month she’s out sick.

        Reply ↓
        1. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

          Honestly, it sounds like you need to move this person to part-time, and hire someone full-time to replace them, at least while the other person is on mat leave. At the least, you probably need to have a conversation with them about how it’s one thing if she’s sick, but if it’s the kid, someone else is going to have to step up to take care of them, because she’s been out far too much.

          Reply ↓
    3. Sunbonnet Sue*

      Is this a pattern from just this month, or from the last quarter/6 months/year? I work in healthcare and am a parent on the east coast, and this sick season (flu and norovirus) and a considerable amount of snow has been BRUTAL. The episode you described (a bunch of sicknesses each week) has happened throughout my workplace and my friend group. If it’s just this this past month, chalk it up to annoying bad luck. If it’s been a pattern for longer, I think the kind thing to do is focus on concrete, measurable work outcomes, not her family dynamics or parenting responsibilities.

      Reply ↓
      1. Momma Bear*

        Agreed – we have a horrible mess of RSV, Flu, COVID AND Norovirus right now. It’s gross and unpleasant. Not everyone’s immune system is up for it.

        Reply ↓
        1. Indolent Libertine*

          Our kid and their family just went through this! Basically the entire month of January, flu followed by norovirus followed by something else, there was barely a day all month when at least 2 of them weren’t down with something.

          Reply ↓
      2. The Office Vegan*

        The absences have consistent for the last year and half. Of course some months are better and some months are worse. We also live in Southern California so we don’t have as much of the seasonal issues that other states do. It’s just frustrating over all, and to be honest I think part of my frustration and the frustration from her co-worker is that she doesn’t seem to see any issue with her absences and has been flippant about it.

        Reply ↓
        1. Qwerty*

          Wow, I thought you meant just recently for this winter. This person has been out sick for about 25% of the time over 1.5 years? How do they have enough PTO to cover that?

          Ugh, I hate this, but it sounds like this person isn’t a fit for a job that requires coverage and consistent hours. I know you said HR isn’t effective, but sometimes you have to make things their problem for them to pick up the ball. Given the large number of outages, it would be reasonable to start requiring doctor’s notes. I usually hate that policy but that’s what we’ve done at places with unlimited sick leave if someone starting needing a larger than average time off. Ideally this would have been addressed after a few months of this not 1.5yrs, so its going to be harder to recalibrate.

          Reply ↓
          1. The Office Vegan*

            She runs out of PTO immediately (and has already used all her paid sick days for this year) she just takes unpaid time off. It turns into, “well I can’t come in – I’m barfing from the clam chowder I ate yesterday” so she takes the time off unpaid. Her personal life and finances aren’t my business, but I’ve gathered that missing this pay does not matter to her so she has no financial imperative to come in.

            After discussing this all with you folks, I think I have come to the realization that I’m suffering from a sunk-cost fallacy. It’s a difficult job to train someone in, so once we have someone who can handle it it’s hard to want to separate from that person. But it’s likely she just is not the right fit, because one of the big factors is reliability. It’s also really unfair to her co-worker, who is stressed about fielding everything by herself while pregnant, and is stressed about leaving and what is going to go wrong in her absence. :(

            Reply ↓
            1. WellRed*

              I’m gonna be honest here; I won’t discount food poisoning and have loads of sympathy for it, but it’s not an excuse I’d believe more than twice or so. Especially if she’s that cavalier about calling off for it. Not sure that’s helpful but it’s a thought.

              Reply ↓
              1. cncx*

                This was my thought. If I got food poisoning two or three times in short order, I would be playing it really safe for six months or so, no gas station sushi or clam chowder or dubious chicken salad. Not just for my job but for my general gut flora and health situation. It’s too cavalier to keep getting food poisoning. That being said I know stomach flu and norovirus which are going around aren’t food poising, but it seems like this coworker is getting both.

                Reply ↓
    4. Abigail*

      I think this is a natural consequence of unlimited sick and PTO time.

      You have to decide two things:

      (1) how much sick time people can use

      (2) if they need to provide documentation of the sick time. I think a good balance on this is something like a doctors note for 3 or more consecutive days or for a planned procedure.

      You start by figuring out what you need.

      Reply ↓
    5. Momma Bear*

      Firstly, I would see about training a backup for the coworker’s maternity leave. That’s a train you see coming. Secondly, I think it’s valid to talk to her about the impact to her work and her options. Does she need to trade projects? Is there a better workflow that could be used? Can she do hybrid? Unfortunately winter is hard for parents – kids get every sniffle and ill + you may not know about a school closing until the night before (or morning of), and that may also close your daycare options. I wouldn’t get into the default parent thing, just focus on the impact to her job. You might also point out the impact to her sick leave or PTO balance if you are concerned that she’s going to run out at this pace.

      Reply ↓
      1. The Office Vegan*

        We are currently training someone to help during the mat leave – but it takes a long time to “get” the job. Think along the lines of working with very specialized technical equipment that can be fussy, multiple teams of developers that have different needs, and many clients who have complex needs and requests. It’s not something you can step into fully after a bit of training. It requires a lot of on-the-job experience and apprenticeship to fully blossom in this role.

        I do think you’re right about focusing on the impact.

        Reply ↓
        1. WellRed*

          Have you ever named the pattern? And dies she know you need her to step up? Maybe a little more ownership o er the role will motivate her? I mean, I’m sure she’s sick but sometimes the bar can be set a little higher for ourselves.

          Reply ↓
    6. Kay*

      You simply need to say something like “This job requires you to be here in person, reliably. Your absences are causing issues with coverage and I need you to be here consistently, can you do that?” You don’t need to get into the why. If she complains or makes excuses you can simply reiterate that for this position you need someone in office, 9-5, Mon-Fri (or whatever) and if she can’t do that then perhaps this isn’t the right fit.

      This conversation should have happened a long time ago, but if you want things to change then you have to do something about it.

      Reply ↓
    7. cncx*

      I don’t have actionable advice but I will say in my career, people who called out that much usually wound up quitting or getting fired short to medium term. It doesn’t help you now, of course. In one of my past experiences, the person who called out constantly wound up dropping a huge ball and was perp walked out on orders of their great grand boss. I think it will just not be sustainable when their coworker goes on mat leave.

      Reply ↓
  57. IHopeNooneIKnowReadsThis*

    Happy Friday, everyone. Last week I was asked to order $3,000 worth of stickers to giveaway at conference booths. I placed the order and went about my day. Until this past Tuesday, when the order showed up. You guys, I order $30,000 worth of stickers.

    Do you know what is not returnable? $30,000 worth of custom stickers.

    They came in at 5:30 when most people had already left for the day so I had all night to picture the firing I knew was coming the next day. I scheduled a meeting with my boss at 8:30 am the next day so she would hear it from me first.

    She laughed her ass off and said she was mostly mad she wasn’t there to see the look on my face when $30,000 in stickers plus the invoice showed up at the office.

    I hope everyone had a better week than me, and that if you didn’t, this will at least give you a moment of joy.

    Reply ↓
    2. Phony Genius*

      Trying to envision this, but I need a little help. How many boxes does $30,000 of custom stickers fill? (Assuming standard banker’s box size.)

      Reply ↓
    3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Oh Nooo!!! I hope you have room for $30,000 stickers!

      I made an error on a much smaller side once. I needed 1 reem of neon orange copy paper. I got 1 case which had like 10 reams!!! We will have neon orange paper for a decade. We don’t hardly use it.

      Reply ↓
    5. Momma Bear*

      I love this reaction from your boss. I guess you’re going to be giving out a LOT of stickers. Like the corporate version of leaving zucchini on the neighbor’s porch.

      Reply ↓
    7. Whale I Never*

      Ha! Sorry for the stress, but glad your boss has a sense of humor. This reminds me of something that happened at my job. A few years ago, we were hosting an event where we wanted to give out little mini-notebooks that were being sold on Amazon in boxes of 100. We estimated attendance of 150, so to be safe my boss said let’s double that and add a little extra and order 400. She used the standard free shipping option, which was supposed to arrive two days before the event, and when it hadn’t arrived by noon that day she panicked and ordered another 400 using expedited shipping. All 800 notebooks arrived the day of the event. Only 50 people attended.

      We have been using these notebooks for EVERYTHING for at least two years and still have unopened boxes of them. We are never going to run out.

      Reply ↓
    9. AKK*

      My husband, in his cheffing days, made a fubar when ordering cake for an event. I think he forgot to take into account that there were 4 cakes in a case, and ordered 4x the amount he needed. Luckily he was working in banquets, so the surplus slowly got used as the sales staff was encouraged to offer the Italian Creme Cake LOL

      Reply ↓
    10. The Prettiest Curse*

      As someone who has to order branded merchandise occasionally, this is a pretty scary scenario! At least your boss thought it was funny.
      One of our conference sponsors last year gave away stickers in our attendee packs, so maybe see if you can tack on the giveaway option to your next conference booth to get rid of them.

      Reply ↓
    11. pally*

      Someone came close to doing this.

      The vendor happened to call. See, for the size order we’d placed, they’d need to special rent a very large moving van. She wanted to double check the order before procuring such a big vehicle. We don’t normally order anywhere close to this amount of product.

      It happened to be the CFO who fielded the call. After the laughter died down, she asked that they knock three zeros off the quantity for the order. Disaster averted.

      Reply ↓
    12. Aggretsuko*

      If you ever read the book “Welcome to Temptation” by Jennifer Crusie, this happened with campaign stickers. “Tucker for Mayor: More of the Same!”

      Reply ↓
    13. Geriatric Rocker*

      I once went a tad overboard when ordering keyboard covers. I thought they came individually and ordered 50, enough to cover all the staff who had a computer. No, they came in boxes of 10.

      Given keyboard covers don’t actually wear out and people didn’t come to me on a regular basis looking for a replacement, those damn cartons were in my stationery cupboard for years.

      Reply ↓
  58. ashie*

    How do we feel about employees going to conferences on their own? In my industry there are 2 major national conferences that might be appropriate for non-management staff. For various reasons, my company is sending 1 employee (my direct report, Susie) to Conference A, and about 10 employees to the Conference B.

    Susie has talked about taking PTO and paying her own way to attend Conference B as well. I’m not sure how I feel about this. I don’t want to deny Susie an educational opportunity but it seems unfair somehow, to the people going to B who can’t attend A, and also that Susie member would be paying her own way for something that her coworkers got paid for. And also somehow it feels wrong that our company is allowing this to happen? What do you think?

    Reply ↓
    1. juliebulie*

      If Susie really wants to pay for it herself, that is one thing (I don’t think she should) but she really shouldn’t have to take PTO for it!

      I know there was at least one letter here about a person who was fired for attending a conference on their own. Circumstances were a little different, but this doesn’t seem to be a thing that people usually do.

      Alternatively, is there any chance you can get all the conference-goers to do a knowledge-sharing thing afterwards? Susie presents on what she learned at Conference A and the others do a presentation about Conference B? I think that is often done when some people get to go to a thing and others do not.

      Reply ↓
      1. ashie*

        Maybe that’s the compromise – we won’t fund it (because we only budgeted for her to attend one conference!) but we won’t make her use PTO. Either way I think the knowledge sharing idea is a good one.

        Reply ↓
    2. Pay no attention...*

      There could be many reasons why they don’t send everyone to both conferences — most obviously is that it means everyone is out of office at the same time. If they don’t want everyone going to both conferences then Susie taking PTO when the org expected to have one employee in the office will not look good. Is conference A less important or more expensive and that’s why the org is only sending Susie instead of breaking the team more evenly?

      My department each person get’s one professional development (ie. conference) per year paid and we are expected to do a knowledge share when we return. So we try to spread out so that only 2-3 people (out of 10) attend and then do a report back to the department on any conference. This way as a group we can cover more conferences. If I were to attend a conference at my own expense, it wouldn’t be wrong so much, but odd and I wouldn’t feel interested in doing a knowledge share if I paid for it myself.

      Reply ↓
      1. ashie*

        It’s not a scheduling issue – Susie’s role is very different from everyone else’s. But her program funder is putting on Conference A so she didn’t get to choose like everyone else did.

        Reply ↓
    3. Wellie*

      “it seems unfair somehow, to the people going to B who can’t attend A”

      It is not unfair at all. They have the same ability that Susie does to evaluate their PTO and finances and make decisions about how important it is to them personally to attend a second conference on their own time and their own dime.

      Reply ↓
    4. Yes And*

      I think it depends. Is this a conference that any Joe Schmo off the street can register for and attend, or do they have to attend as a representative of a company that has some affiliation with the conference host? If the former, then I think Susie’s desire to do this is *weird*, but you can’t police how she spends her vacation time/discretionary income. If the latter, then this is a hard no; it would translate to people with more financial resources having greater access to company-sponsored professional development, which is a major equity issue.

      Reply ↓
      1. ashie*

        That’s a good point. It’s pretty much open to anyone. It’s unusual for a Joe Shmoe to attend but there are a few every year.

        Reply ↓
    5. WellRed*

      Is Susie truly missing out by not attending conference B? And why isn’t she in the first place? I mean, I assume There’s a reason for the
      Lopsided attendance. Is she just feeling left out if coworker group?

      Reply ↓
      1. ashie*

        Susie’ program is funded by the company that puts on Conference A so she kind of has to be there. Most people were given the choice which one to attend and they picked B because it’s less travel and slightly more prestigious. I could see her not wanting to miss out on the camaraderie but I think she just really likes learning things and meeting people.

        Reply ↓
        1. ashie*

          Maybe I should have mentioned it before, but I’ll be at Conference A as well as a number of people we know well from other companies, so it’s not like she’d be out there all by herself.

          Reply ↓
    6. Kathenus*

      In my industry this is relatively common. Think non-profit-like, mission oriented but small budgets for ‘non-essential’ things like travel and professional development. Probably the first decade of my career I did this – paying for conferences and taking vacation time. Some employers were good about giving business time versus vacation, but not all. I realize everyone may not be in a financial position to pay for their own travel for things like this, but I think if staffing allows, the opportunity is available to all, and someone is able to go on their own that this should be supported.

      I will say additionally that it’s really important in these fields that the powers that be don’t expect/rely on this type of thing and intentionally underfund professional development (aka imposing the ‘passion-tax’ for those in mission oriented fields), but if the reality is that you can only send a small percentage of people each year from a budget standpoint, I hate restricting people from being able to go on their own if they want to do so.

      Reply ↓
      1. ashie*

        This is exactly the situation in my industry. I am very fortunate to work for one of a very few orgs that will gladly pay for staff to obtain credentialing and pursue training opportunities.

        Reply ↓
  59. Just a suggestion*

    So. . . why/when did Fridays stop being “Good News Friday” and just become extended “Weekend Open Thread?”

    Reply ↓
    2. Hlao-roo*

      Good News Friday started a couple months into Covid and ended at the end of 2023. I’ll post a link to some discussion that happened about it in an open thread in January 2024 in a reply to this comment.

      Reply ↓
    3. Day Lilies*

      Friday open threads (for work-specific topics, unlike the weekend open threads that are for non-work topics) have been a feature here for years (probably close to a decade now).

      The “Friday Good News” posts started during the pandemic as a way to share positive things during a dark time. The last officially tagged “Friday Good News” post was in December 2023, so it’s been a while since that was a regular feature.

      Reply ↓
  60. Don’t make me come over there*

    Random “how do I do this thing I’ve never done before” question: I have to arrange to ship a 600lb device about the size of a refrigerator from Florida to Michigan. Is this a job for FedEx? Or are there other LTL freight options that I should look into? Apparently Uber Freight exists now – has anyone used it?

    Reply ↓
    1. Maleficent2026*

      I think UPS does freight shipping as well. I would also try asking people at the Florida and Michigan locations if they’ve had any similar experiences. And I don’t know if I’m just learning this late in life or what, but I’ve recently realized that if you start conversations with “Hey, I’ve never done X before, have you?”, people are generally more willing and interested in helping out.

      Reply ↓
    2. Amber Rose*

      You might have to look into a separate crating/packaging company if it’s not already sealed up properly. You want to make sure something like that is properly palletized or plastic wrapped or whatever.

      FedEx does do freight shipments, but you might want to get quotes from like DHL and Purolator as well just to see if you can get a better rate.

      Reply ↓
    3. avatar*

      Is the device palletizable or crate-able? That will help get it there in one piece. There are many LTL companies out there. Is there one the receiving company prefers? Some delivery companies are better at other locations than others. Pitt Ohio, ABF, Old Dominion, etc. are solid options if you have an account with them or can use the receiver’s account.

      Reply ↓
      1. Don’t make me come over there*

        Alas, I am the receiver, and I have no preferences yet :) Bit of a weird situation as both locations are part of the same organization but this is the first time I’m involved in this project.

        Reply ↓
    4. Paperclip*

      One place I worked for used DHL and Fed Ex Freight. Be sure you have a way for them to load it or say you’ll need them to bring a pallet jack or forklift to load it. No idea about Uber Freight though!

      Reply ↓
  61. VertigoThembo*

    I had a really solid interview this week and I’m crossing my fingers! I even stole Alison’s best interviewing question (what separates someone good in this position from someone great, and it worked fantastic- I didn’t even have to imply ‘that’s a skill I have’, the interviewer did it for me by saying ‘Well, as you actually said earlier-‘
    So here’s hoping, and also here’s hoping if I do get this job, I get some real migraine medicine first.

    Reply ↓
  62. llamasandteapots*

    Do folks have any advice for how to come to terms with a RTO mandate? I am struggling with what the change will mean for my personal time (long commute), my dogs, and the inevitable loss of coworkers/increased work coverage in a company that takes FOREVER to replace vacant roles. I’m considering applying elsewhere, but what tips and tricks do you have in the meantime?

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      Are there any things you can do to make your commute better/less bad? If it’s a driving commute, you can listen to audiobooks/your favorite music/podcasts and try out alternate routes to avoid stressful intersections/merges. If it’s a public transit commute, you can read, listen to media, knit, people-watch etc.

      Is there anything you can take advantage of at/near the office location? Good places to go out to lunch, stores you can pop into on your lunch break that would otherwise be out of your way, etc.?

      Are there any coworkers you’re looking forward to seeing in person?

      For you dogs, do you have some money you can throw at the problem? Mid-day dogwalker? Doogie daycare a few days a week?

      Basically, look for as much good as possible in the situation, and also look for ways to minimize the bad.

      Reply ↓
      1. llamasandteapots*

        These are some really great recommendations, thank you! We do have a nice doggy daycare nearby that we’ll probably use for one of the dogs who can’t be trusted alone, but I’ve depressed myself doing the math on what that combined with the gas costs will be (~$5000 just for those two line items). I’m also going to be losing at least three team mates on an already very small team, which is really bringing me down. I do like the idea of making a list of some of the positives. That might help this suck a little less.

        Reply ↓
        1. Momma Bear*

          Yeah, I bet a lot of people are doing the math.

          For the losing teammates, guard your work life balance. Don’t burn yourself out for the company’s stupidity.

          I agree to do anything you can to make your commute easier – books, music, a special lunch once a week, etc. You also know you won’t be alone in this so you may find comfort in talking to coworkers.

          Reply ↓
    2. Whale I Never*

      I find it helps to have start/end of day “rituals” to help get into and out of the work zone. Like maybe on the way to work you listen to podcasts or instrumental music to start shifting into focus mode, and on the way home you blast the same beloved pop playlist to burn up any anxious work energy.

      Reply ↓
      1. No name today*

        I did this when I first started working in city government…listened to Catch 22on the way to work and on the way home—and only then. Listened to other things at the gym, walking, doing chores. Really helped me see the humor in bureaucracies, and realize that no matter how bad we had it, it could always be worse.

        Thinking I may need to start rereading that book!

        Reply ↓
  63. wooricat*

    For the second time this week, one of my coworkers has had a meltdown about politics in the lunchroom.

    The first incident was one-sided, they took a nonpolitical comment made by someone about prices and turned it into a loud rant about how “you people” (the rest of us in the room who were sitting in silence) haven’t “seen the light” about the current administration.

    Today they provoked another coworker into shouting match. It was disruptive enough that I left the room to eat back at my desk.

    Should I mind my own business about this, or mention it to my supervisor? The person instigating is not in my department. But they seem to be escalating and I wonder if we all need a reminder about civility.

    Reply ↓
    1. Wellie*

      Both coworkers in the shouting match should be counseled on appropriate workplace behavior. The provoker needs a talk about not provoking their coworkers. The provokee needs a talk about not responding to provocation.

      Reply ↓
    2. Hlao-roo*

      Definitely mention it to your supervisor. Shouting isn’t OK in the workplace (except for rare shouts for safety like “watch out!” or “fire!”).

      Reply ↓
    3. Strive to Excel*

      Same coworker each time? Yeah, time to go to your supervisor. This person is not going to stop being disruptive.

      Reply ↓
    4. Janet*

      Part of me thinks this person needs help, but another petty part of me is delighted and gratified that this person is feeling anxiety and frustration over other people’s opinions. :)

      You and your coworkers, whatever their politics, deserve to be able to eat lunch in peace without listening to an argument. I would mention it to the supervisor. It seems like a general reminder would do the trick.

      Reply ↓
    5. Momma Bear*

      At this point I’d mention it, since it’s not likely that tempers will never flare again. Provoking coworkers is hostile not only to that person but to everyone else in the room. You have a legit concern that they are escalating and verbally abusing others, regardless of topic.

      Reply ↓
    6. Qwerty*

      Please say something to your supervisor. If possible, also document both incidents with what happened, who else witnessed / was involved, etc. You have a volatile coworker who shouted at people twice this week – this most certainly is your business and management will need to shut this down quickly.

      Reply ↓
    7. Someone Online*

      I do think it’s important to also remember that real harm is being done to people, and we don’t know what is happening in that person’s life, or to their family or friends. I do think mentioning it to your supervisor is a good idea and I hope they approach from a place of empathy, providing support resources and putting boundaries in place.

      Reply ↓
    8. Tea Monk*

      We’re all on edge with the chaos but maybe your manager can talk to whoever is over the instigator to see if they can try to behave more professionally. I understand things are bad but we all need to not yell in the workplace

      Reply ↓
  64. Hiding from my boss*

    Being brief and holding back identifying details, but:

    Recently at a staff meeting, a POC manager used the term “karen” to describe an upset, complaining customer (we get upset, complaining customers of all demographics all the time). I was shocked mgr would use that term. Almost all people at the meeting were POC. I am debating whether to speak up about this now being a derogatory term.

    Anyone else’s thoughts?

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I know some people consider the prototypical “Karen” to be a middle-aged white woman, but I’m not sure the race component (or even the gender) has actually stuck. From context, it seems to me that the manager was probably just using it to mean “someone with an outsized sense of entitlement and importance”.

      My IRL name is derogatory in some situations – I got over it.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hiding from my boss*

        I’ve heard/read a number of people express that. haven’t seen/read anyone other than caucasian woman called that.

        Reply ↓
    3. Nope*

      A POC manager using a this term for a specific type of complaining customer (the definition used below) that is associated with a racist white woman is punching up, not punching down. People may object to its use but it’s not “derogatory.”

      Reply ↓
      1. Hiding from my boss*

        so when is it ok to punch at all? it’s still punching. and this is a workplace when managers should model appropriate behavior and speech for employees.

        Reply ↓
    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      Unless your actual name is Karen, I would let it go. It smacks of complaining about so-called “reverse racism.”

      Reply ↓
      1. Momma Bear*

        Agreed. It’s become a term to describe people (admittedly a particular demographic) who are obnoxious and rude. It’s not entirely nice but I wouldn’t put it in the same category as truly derogatory terms, even if it’s a POC manager who said it. Is the objection really about the term or the manager?

        Reply ↓
        1. Hiding from my boss*

          I’ve heard/read a number of people express that. haven’t seen/read anyone other than caucasian woman called that.

          Reply ↓
    5. Chauncy Gardener*

      I’ve heard “Karen” used for every kind of person, male, female, even spoiled kids, of all colors. At least where I live, it seems to have evolved into a blanket term for an entitled, loudmouth person.

      Reply ↓
    6. Saturday*

      I would definitely be uncomfortable with it, and it would surprise me coming from a manager. I have only heard it applied to white woman too, and I really feel like that’s not okay (I’m not white myself, but I don’t buy the idea that punching up is fine.

      Whether or not to say something would depend for me on the type of relationships you have with the manager and the whole team.

      Reply ↓
    8. tabloidtainted*

      Yes, people have gotten too comfortable with calling women Karens. I don’t know if there’s a benefit to speaking up about it though.

      Reply ↓
    9. Enbious*

      I agree that “karen” is used now to just mean “someone overreacting by making unfounded claims & unjustified complaints” – In most situations I would not assume that it specifically refers to a white middle-aged woman. But if you get complaining customers all the time and this manager only used “karen” the one time that the customer was actually a white middle-aged woman… then I can see why that made you raise your eyebrows a bit.

      Reply ↓
    10. Hiding from my boss*

      From Merriam Webster Dictionary online:

      https://www.merriam-webster.com/slang/karen

      What does Karen mean?
      Karen is a slang term used to disparage a stereotypically middle-class, middle-aged white woman who rebukes or reports others in angry, sometimes racist public displays. More generally, it is an insult for anyone, though still typically a woman, who shows entitled behavior, especially in the form of outspoken complaints or intrusive criticism. Depending on context, it may be considered sexist.

      Reply ↓
    11. fhqwhgads*

      My understanding of the phrase is it is used as shorthand for “a person who will demand to speak to a manager over a mundane and not at all worthy of escalation issue”.
      It’s not a term I use, and it’s certainly not a positive term, but “derogatory” seems an outsized reaction to me.

      Reply ↓
  65. Sylvia*

    Does anyone have recommendations for books on navigating the workplace as a professional who is a bottom-up thinker/processer? I do well in my career and this type of thinking usually benefits me, but I could use some help in understanding and communicating with top-down thinkers.

    Reply ↓
  66. Whale I Never*

    There was some ribbing in the comments of the post last week about whether offices in Philadelphia or Kansas City would be shutting down for the Super Bowl. Well, for the first time in YEARS I forgot to check AAM on a weekday because my office was shut down and I forgot it was only a local holiday, not a national one. Popping in belatedly to say GO BIRDS

    Reply ↓
    3. buckeye*

      woo! hope you enjoyed your day :)

      I’m not an nfl fan, but a huge ohio state buckeyes fan (and an alumn). Last month, I took the day off after the national championship win and left sports center on alllllllllll day just to hear them say the soundbite about the win every 15 minutes. it was awesome.

      Reply ↓
  67. merry*

    A lot of things are coming together for me, my health has improved, I started working on a new project, which means I now have energy and reasons to think (worry) about my job/career.
    Now that my health is better and due to the nature of the new project, my adhd has become MUCH more apparent. yesterday I spent HALF AN HOUR on askamanager while at work. like in one piece. I stayed later to make up for it, but overall I keep finding myself distracted, doing other things and having some adhd paralysis where I would rather spin in my chair for an hour over working. I LIKE my job and what I do.
    So that catapulted finding a psych for medication to the top of my todo list.
    the new project also requires much more collaboration and I’ve been finding myself totally blanking on questions that I absolutely should know. Like not a blackout panic kind of thing. Just questions like, How did you do X? where I know I did X yesterday, but for some reason I absolutely cannot remember HOW I did it. Pretty sure that is ADHD again. Any ideas on how to handle this??
    The other thing is that I often struggle to explain my decisions and reasonings for why I do things the way I do. some part is just my personality. some of it is generally that I have thought soup in my head and making thought soup into cohesive sentences is hard. some of it is that I learned how to do things in a specific way and never questioned why. some of it is that I did know why, but forgot.
    This one is gonna be very important in the long run in the career. How do I even improve this?

    Reply ↓
    1. Em*

      I also have ADHD, and frequently struggle to remember things like “how/why did I do this”. It’s kind of cliche advice but what really works for me is writing everything down. Get a notebook, keep it by your desk, and every time you work on a new task write down each step and why you are doing it. Anything you think you might forget in the future, and even stuff you’re sure you won’t forget.

      It’s important to NOT worry about organizing this notebook! That can be a distraction and make it harder to actually do it. Just open it to the first blank page, maybe give it a title like “how to do X” or “my approach to X” or even “[today’s date] tasks”, and start writing. Write as fast as you legibly can, don’t slow down to make it neat or pretty. Ideally this is a book for your eyes only.

      I have found that the actual act of writing helps me remember enough that I usually don’t have to actually read it again. But you always can if you need to, especially if it’s a task you only come back to occasionally.

      Reply ↓
    2. RagingADHD*

      If everyone who spent 30 minutes reading the internet or social media during the workday had ADHD, we would have to totally redefine what normal is.

      Reply ↓
      1. merry*

        so I impulse answered with anger and said impulse answer got lost. maybe it will show up sooner or later.
        frankly. I don’t want to spend more time on this. I have an adhd diagnosis. I understand that everyone, adhd or not, will spend some time browsing the internet, it’s normal. I kept the description of it very short, because it’s not something I wanted advice for, so you’re missing a lot of context of why it is an adhd caused problem.
        do you have any helpful advice towards my questions?

        Reply ↓
  68. Emperor Kuzco*

    Does anyone have helpful language or tips or ideas on bringing up the possibility of moving to a different location/branch within a company?

    I work for a retail company (mostly online) that has two physical locations. I work for the corporate part which is located in a very high cost living part of the US. The rent here is just becoming way too much for me to afford (about 40% of my monthly income), and while I’ve started job searching it occurred to me that maybe I could ask about moving to the other location (way more affordable rent). Unfortunately there’s not really a one to one job transfer that could happen, so I don’t know what to ask. If they could create a position for me? If there’s a missing piece in the other location that I could squeeze into? I feel like it could be worth asking, although it would definitely give away that I’m job searching, which might be worrying.

    (With my current position I can’t work remote, I am needed to do hands on things. Also they were only able to give 2% raises for reviews in January, so asking for more isn’t going to happen.)

    Reply ↓
    1. Concerned parent*

      I think if you’re going to approach them with something like this, you would have to do the legwork to figure out what they would need in another location and create the job description yourself. Putting the onus on them to create a job for you when they don’t think they need someone in a role, you’d like to have would be asking a lot.

      Reply ↓
    2. Chirpy*

      I asked to transfer to a different store in a different city, but since I work the floor, it was an exact match to my old job. (and then, when I got to the new location, they didn’t honor the raise I was supposed to get, which was rough as it’s a much higher cost of living area. I eventually got a big raise as I think someone finally realized I was underpaid.) So, I don’t have much advice, but good luck.

      Reply ↓
  69. JTP*

    I’m curious to hear what other AAM readers have experienced — does anyone think their company has done RTO *well*? A third-party “associate morale” survey company told our leaders (after VERY poor associate morale survey results) that they weren’t surprised, because they had yet to see any well-written RTO policy.

    My company was mandatory remote (with a few exceptions for jobs that had to be done on-site) from 2020 until February 2022. At that time, you could choose to return to the office full-time, work hybrid, or remain remote.

    In February 2024, they began enforcing RTO for any associate within a particular radius of a “hub” office to return once or twice a week, whether any other members of your team were in the area or not (meaning you could be the sole team member in your office, but you were ordered to RTO to “collaborate.”) Whether it was once or twice a week was dictated by your area leader, and the day(s) you returned were also dictated to you (rather than choosing a day that worked for you). You got 4 “RTO exceptions” to use throughout the year for appointments, “sick but not so sick that I can’t work” days, sick children, etc. You couldn’t use more than 1 exception in a month (or else get written up). If you were out of exceptions, you had to use PTO.

    This was met with A LOT of backlash, and in February of this year, they “relaxed” the policy to “come in to the office 4 times a month.” But associates had already rebuilt their lives around the more rigid RTO policy, so nobody really changed their in-office days.

    Reply ↓
    1. Enbious*

      Does hybrid scheduling count as RTO, or are we only talking *full* RTO mandates? I really like the way my office has implemented a hybrid RTO policy. Since about August 2024, we’ve been told we are expected in the office two days a week – everyone is expected to be in the office Tuesdays, and then we can choose either Wed or Thurs as our second day. I appreciate that there are days when it’s easy to “collaborate” or have in-person meetings but there is still a lot of flexibility. It’s rare for me to feel like “well going to the office was waste today because I was the only person there” (although it does still happen sometimes).

      Reply ↓
    2. JustaTech*

      Not my company (“Be here all the time, rar!”), but I found the difference between Amazon and Meta informative.
      Basically, their RTO was similar in the broad outlines, but different in that Meta (perhaps having met both humans and engineers) already had a lot of their “edge case exceptions”, like, “vacation and sick count towards your in-office days” or how to work around things like “office closed for weather” and all the things that make people anxious.
      Amazon didn’t have any of the edge cases planned out in advance and it made their workforce both very anxious and very frustrated.

      So I would say the best starting point for RTO is 1) clearly communicate the plan and 2) actually think about all the eventualities that you *are* going to run into and have a plan for those too.

      Reply ↓
    3. Alex*

      I think the only way that it can go well is if employees feel that the RTO is not a waste of their time. Tons of people don’t feel that being in the office is worth the commute, and if management feels differently, they need to clearly make that case and make sure that they are basing their case on actual facts and not just things like optics or poor managers who feel they need to watch people in order for them to work.

      If employees feel like their time in the office is useful and productive in a way that it can’t be at home, they will be more amenable to doing it.

      Reply ↓
  70. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    I work as an admin assistant in a university. I’m hoping to get my PACE certification. (professional administrative certificate of excellence.) I requested a grant from our staff council for professional development funds to pay for it, as it’s $650. I was hoping to have heard by today but they did say 2 weeks from application due date, so probably sometime next week. I do know that only 2 people total had applied.
    I’m just chomping at the bit waiting.

    Reply ↓
  71. not fed*

    Anybody have advice for working under a boss who is extremely stressed out by the current US government chaos?

    For context: I work very closely with my boss, who is a naturalized US citizen that grew up in germany (60s through 90s). She’s always had a few quirks I assume are a german thing (mostly that she’s extremely private, to the point of disliking a workplace pronouns initiative because she thinks you should never put personal information in writing unless absolutely necessary).

    Our organization is funded by a combination of federal grants and private endowments. We’re currently on federal money, but a private donor has committed to covering us if the grant is taken away (and covering payments during any freezes).

    So our paychecks aren’t directly in jeopardy, but the general state of chaos and targeting of what we do is obviously very stressful for everybody at the organization. She’s been a lot harder on me these past three weeks- asking for unusually increased productivity with no deadlines looming and grilling me about some field specific details that aren’t relevant to us on the spot (the equivalent of being asked what’s on page 51 of lord of the flies instead of a book report, when you had to read the book a year ago) and made some anxiety inducing comments (“this is like germany before the war”, “how will you get another job if you can’t remember xyz?”)

    We spend an average of 3 hours meeting per week and I feel like our 1-on-1’s keep getting derailed by her stress. Either (a) she’s spending 30-45 minutes quizzing me over minor things or (b) she’s unhappy with my productivity and won’t actually let me get a word in to discuss the actual work related things we need to talk about. She’s also been kind of frantically demanding I switch from project a to project b to project a to project c each time I see her (even if we just pass each other in the hallway).

    I’m her only direct report. We’ve had a very successful few years working together (several projects completed) and generally have a very good working relationship. I don’t want to sound callous, because I realize the grant situation is a major challenge in our field’s future, but I also do need to get around to the work that I’m meant to be doing instead of these unproductive meetings and shifting priorities. Last week, she asked me to memorize a table of niche industry knowledge so she could ask me at random what detail is located next to what other detail (the equivalent of memorizing the periodic table. it’s a public domain piece of reference knowledge).

    How do I still be productive and get some control back?????????? I need her feedback for any project to move forward, but it’s excruciating to get anything helpful out of her right now.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hatchet*

      Can you gently ask her/call her out on the shifting priorities? Maybe something along the lines of “Can you give me a big picture or longer term plan for our projects? What’s the timeline for Projects A, B, and C?” Or if you don’t want to ask her verbally, put it in an email. Perhaps with “here’s what I though the timeline was for Project A. Are there any changes that need to be made from your side? If so, please let me know by X date.” I’ve used similar language when I needed to check in with my previous boss and he would take a week+ to respond, so maybe this will work for any feedback you need from her right now.

      Regarding the specific piece of information, can you ask her if she’s prepping you for an industry based certification test? Based on what you’ve said, it sounds like she’s incredibly worried about looking productive and competent for the donor… and it’s just coming out in all these different rushed ways. Can she name these specific big concerns so you can work together on a plan? Even if the response to some items is to look it up in the public domain piece at X website? Good luck!

      Reply ↓
  72. Em*

    Is there any way to get potential employers to look past gaps in work history?

    I’m currently unemployed and have been for a little over a year. This is a pattern for me; after I get laid off (I work in tech, mostly at startups, so it’s happened a few times) I don’t find another job for a couple years. This has been a huge black mark against me and it’s only getting worse, especially since I don’t know how to explain it to employers.

    The honest answer for the gaps? I have a mental illness. Getting laid off would set off a huge episode, and finding a job is hard enough when you DON’T have to fight your own brain. I needed that time after each layoff to recenter myself before I was capable of presenting as a normal, employable person.

    Late last year, after over a decade of searching, I found a new medication that actually works on me. Hooray! I haven’t had an episode since October.

    But if only I’d gotten this stuff sooner! My current gap is already enough to disqualify me from jobs. I literally had a recruiter hang up on me when I told him my last job was in 2023, and that’s before we even got to the other gaps from previous layoffs.

    I don’t know how to spin this. I personally don’t mind being completely honest about my mental health, but I don’t think “Yeah, I used to go crazy sometimes, but I swear I’m good now” is exactly what hiring managers want to hear.

    I’m not comfortable lying about my work history, and when I’ve tried the vague-but-true excuse of “I had periods of illness” I invariably got a reaction like I’d said “the dog ate my homework” (I probably could get a doctor’s note to prove it, but that doesn’t seem appropriate to ask for or offer in an interview). I’ve tried bringing up volunteer work and the small business I’ve been working on, but they aren’t related to my field and recruiters don’t seem particularly interested.

    Reply ↓
    1. JustMe*

      I’m so sorry you’ve been dealing with that! Hooray for the new meds!

      How about, “I have found that I like time to regroup after a layoff. I have been very lucky to be able to take it. Once I take on a new job, I’m 100% there and giving it my best.”

      Yes, “lucky” might be quite the spin here. But maybe it will go down better than some other things will.

      And if you’re working with an outside recruiter (instead of an HR recruiter), give them that line and then ask them if they have additional ideas on how to address that if asked.

      Reply ↓
  73. JustMe*

    I desperately want to move from my current “red” state to the “blue” state closest to me. I have family there, and some decent-looking organizations have job postings at the moment–with sign-on bonuses!–so I’m dusting off my resume.

    Thing is, I know managers can be hesitant to hire someone from far away. Would it be weird to list both a family member’s (local to the job) city/state and my own city/state on my resume? Then explain in the cover letter that I have family in the area and am trying to move there?

    Or should I just mention in the cover letter that I want to move to be closer to family, and maybe mention how local some of the family are in the letter, to help allay those concerns about someone who might change their mind? (Focusing, of course, on why I think they’re a great organzation and would benefit from taking me on.)

    Reply ↓
    1. WellRed*

      I used local addresses when needed, felt no need to clarify but that was also 25 years ago. Are you close enough for a short notice, in person interview?

      Reply ↓
    2. Hlao-roo*

      I moved states (and jobs) a few years ago, and I put a sentence along the lines of “I have family that lives in [state] and I’m looking forward to living near them” in my cover letter and I just had my current address on my resume. Then in phone screens/interviews, I mentioned a little more detail (“my aunt lives in [city] and my sibling lives in [city]. I’ve loved visiting them in that region of [state] and am looking forward to living there full time”). That worked for me in terms of showing that I was serious about relocating and staying.

      Reply ↓
  74. Hello*

    Happy Friday!

    Anyone with experience working in corporate immigration law at any level? How’s the work and general environment? Do you have any concerns about the stability with the current administration? Thinking about making a switch but not sure it’s a good idea to take the risk in this climate.

    Reply ↓
  75. Enbious*

    I’m wondering how much leeway to give my organization before I whistleblow…

    My small immediate team works tangentially to a number of other departments throughout the organization, but one department gives us a bit more trouble than others. About a year ago my team became aware that the Trouble Department (TTD) has not been completing a particular in-house process across the board – only for certain clients. My team is the front-end who accepts money from the clients for this process, even though the TTD team is the ones who actually do the work of the process. So my immediate reaction was “it’s unethical for us to accept this money if TTD is not doing the process we accepted the money for.” At the time I was informed by my boss Jane that she would be bringing it to the attention of upper management. So since I’m a low-level employee so I didn’t bring it up again, assuming that it was a bigger conversation that didn’t need to involve me.

    Fast forward to today and I’ve just heard that Jane is working with our upper management to implement changes that will help ensure that the process is being done for all clients. Great news! But, Jane says, management has concerns that the changes we’ve suggested are “not feasible” for TTD to implement, and they are concerned about the pushback we’ll receive from TTD.

    The more that I’ve dwelt on this issue the more strongly I feel that this is not only unethical but also could be considered fraud. I’m no lawyer and there’s no contracts involved but the implicit understanding that someone has when they give us money is that they are paying to have us do that thing when we’re not always doing it for everyone! TTD’s website even has language about how they perform the process where they use language on considering “each client” and reviewing “every component” — which is not true!

    So now I’m tempted to call our organization’s whistleblower hotline about this. I’ve read over their website and feel that this fits into not just “fraud” but also “willful omission to perform duty.” But knowing that my boss is working on implementing a policy makes me feel hesitant…. She said the goal is to soft-launch this policy in the spring. Should I just be patient and wait to see if this gets addressed before I do anything drastic? Or is it worth it to take action now to make sure that this doesn’t get pushed to the side for not being “feasible”?

    Reply ↓
    1. Reba*

      One way of looking at it is, let the whistleblower office be the ones to decide if it’s serious enough to act on.

      Also carefully consider what the whistleblower office offers you in terms of confidentiality or anonymity.

      Reply ↓
  76. Teacher Lady*

    Did anyone have any Valentine’s Day-adjacent things at work that made today a better day? (Or, any stories to share from the past?)

    I work in public schools in an area with strong unions, and between student arrival and the official start of classes, I went around the building and gave staff member stickers related to our current contract negotiations to wear during the day. In all of our kindergarten and pre-kindergarten classrooms, I got mobbed by 4- and 5-year-olds who wanted to describe their Valentine’s Day garb [which they were, at that moment, visibly wearing] to me in great detail. It was both very cute and a great reminder of why I so enjoy my work with older children, who trust my ability to accurately perceive their heart-adorned sweaters.

    Also, just lovely to be asked by children, “Do you know where Mr. [Custodian] is, we want to give him a cupcake from our party because we threw away A LOT of trash.” All of our work is valuable work!

    Reply ↓
    1. WellRed*

      Nothing overt but had a call today with several people and the happy valentines came up and it felt a bit cheerier for the moment!

      Reply ↓
  77. Eyeball*

    Hi all — how do you know when to speak your piece and when to let things go?

    My specific issue: I am in a creative contributor job, and I HATE AI — for ethical reasons, but mostly, it is such a dangerous and poor use of our increasingly limited environmental resources. I don’t think a lot of people know about the profound environmental implications, but they also don’t seem to want to know. Even in a hobby group, I got a lot of bad-faith arguments in a discussion about this topic (a lot of “well, cars are bad too” type things). When my peers defend their use of it, they sound so defensive and insecure to me — like they know it’s wrong and lazy but they just don’t want to stop. I digress.

    So today in an employee resource group Slack channel, someone asked about productivity tips — what are productivity hacks you love? And a few people said ChatGPT. I was seriously halfway through typing out a screed on this issue when I stopped myself, said “no, this isn’t the time or place, people are going to stop taking you seriously”, and deleted it.

    Part of me regrets this, because I honestly believe these tools should not be normalized — but now I am second guessing myself. It is possible that this issue is actually driving me insane!

    I guess I am here for a gut check — not specifically on AI, but like…what’s the line? Like, if someone used a racial slur or something like that, I’d say something — but knowing my industry, my area, my company, most people would be on my side on that one. But here, nobody seems to care except the people whose jobs are already being threatened (the writers and illustrators).

    Reply ↓
    1. RagingADHD*

      I think there’s a middle ground between writing a screed and saying nothing. You can say you don’t use ChatGPT because it raises ethical issues, without going into detail.

      But to keep on topic / match the purpose of the question, you should not do that as a reply to anyone who suggested AI, but instead start a new top level reply and say it in conjunction with offering a productivity tip of your own.

      Reply ↓
    2. fortheplanet*

      Ugh, yeah, I totally get that feeling like … I want to trust people that they’re making the right decisions for themselves, but sometimes it feels like you’re just staring down this complete void of compassion or caring.

      Myself, I don’t own a car, and I’m vegetarian leaning vegan (albeit for animal welfare reasons as well as environmental ones), and I want an immediate and complete ban on AI development. I will admit though that I haven’t found the case that AI is particularly environmentally destructive to be compelling. This is the best-contextualized overview of the issue that I’ve seen: https://andymasley.substack.com/p/individual-ai-use-is-not-bad-for
      Tldr: as individual choices go, forgoing AI is not one of the big ones, and, as usual, substantive change will have to foreground industry-wide or national regulation.

      So my thoughts on how to react to people using chatgpt are coming from a place informed by that context: I’m deciding how to react to someone doing something that’s worse for the climate than a google search, but much less bad than eating a hamburger or running a clothes drying cycle? How would I feel about making a fuss over someone using chatgpt, but staying quiet when someone drives to work instead of taking public transit? I do understand where you’re coming from, where this is a new behavior that we have a chance to not normalize, but I would tend to balance that against, kind of, the great diversity in human experience in terms of what a given tradeoff looks like for each person, if that makes sense. I figure that reasonable climate choices are going to look different for someone who can’t walk 100 feet and someone who struggles to organize their thoughts coherently, so I feel uncomfortable singling out some people who are making objectively less bad choices than others just because the technology they’re using happens to be new. But I totally get where you’re coming from and definitely struggle with how much to speak up or push back when someone is making a choice that causes harm to others and I’m not trying to make out like I have the answers.

      And if I’m off-base about what we know about the impact of climate choices including AI, I’d appreciate being corrected. I really do strive to make thoughtful, informed climate choices in a fact- and evidence-based way, so any knowledge is power. Wishing you all the best in trying to navigate these difficult situations in these difficult times.

      Reply ↓
  78. fhqwhgads*

    I am trying to figure out if my frustration is reasonable, or nitpicky, or showing internal bias I need to work on, or some mix of all three.
    My employer recently hired a ton of contractors from a firm in another country whose primary language is not English. But all the contractors do also speak English. So that should be fine. And they have the skills we need.
    However, fairly often some instruction seems clear enough, so no one asks questions, thinks they’ve got it, and then it’s far downstream before anyone realizes there has been a miscommunication.
    Separate from that, when anyone does realize there’s been miscommunication or misunderstanding – catch it early or late – actually clarifying takes much longer. It’s like we’re playing telephone. And even confirming that someone understands is more difficult. Basically, we’re all wasting a lot of time with he extra task of “well I can probably figure out what you meant”. I don’t mean situations where there’s a grammar mistake but it’s still completely obvious what was intended. What’s happening is more like, if you reread it four times you’re 90% sure.
    Is it worth raising the language barrier issue? It seems like most people seem to either be working around it or ignoring it, but it’s adding up to more than ideally it would. I don’t want to pick on people’s grammar or language skills, but ostensibly all these job descriptions include “clear communication skills”. I’m also not suggesting the answer is “don’t have all these contractors” because that’s not the point. But it seems like there’s been no strategy whatsoever to account for this. If I submitted work that used this sentence structure, it wouldn’t fly, I’d need to fix it. But the same rules don’t seem to apply. None of this is client-facing. Individual occurrences seem petty to point out, but the sum of the parts is kinda huge.

    Reply ↓
    1. cncx*

      How much of this is language versus culture? In some countries, deadlines are seen as soft and that urgent deadlines will be met by riding people. So telling someone “I need this task done by Friday” with no follow up is read as a suggestion, but “I need this task done by Friday” with reminders Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and & Thursday is how some cultures push things through.
      Also are the contractors kpis tied to what they deliver for your company, or is their work graded/judged by some other indicator?

      Reply ↓
  79. Sparkly Librarian*

    I guess this is work-related. It’s unemployment insurance.

    I got a notice that my claim for Paid Family Leave (in California) was denied because I had not filed in a “timely” manner. I had missed the deadline by 5 days. I wasn’t paid for 5 weeks while I was on leave. They took 5 MONTHS to communicate with me at all after I did submit the claim.

    I wrote an appeal explaining the circumstances (very uncertain foster-type placement; court dates cancelled and continued multiple times; eventually there was a custody judgement and the child left our care 4 days before the deadline and I was grieving, my home life was disrupted, and I just could not do the paperwork sooner than I did). Basically asking for an exception for my human response to unusual life stuff.

    What chance do you think it has on appeal? Do humans read these? Are they allowed leeway?

    Reply ↓
    1. LBD*

      I once had my (un)Employment Insurance claim denied because I had left a job voluntarily at one point.
      I was working two part time jobs during the summe; one was a job in fast food that I had held for a long time, the other was an admin job, replacing somebody who was on a one year maternity leave, that I had started at the end of April. I quit the fast food job when I returned to my full time college program in September. I was laid off the following April, when the employee returned to the job. I also graduated from my program. Between the two jobs I did have enough hours to make me eligible for relief. My claim was denied because I had voluntarily left the fast food job.
      I rebutted that I could only hold one of the jobs while I attended school, and that I had kept the job that guaranteed me more hours and higher pay, as that was the reasonable and practical thing to do. They reversed their decision. The End.
      Of course that may not be the way it works for you, as this didn’t happen to me in California and also circumstances between the two situations are different, but my point is that beaurocracy sometimes does have human beings who respond as humans and will listen.
      Good luck to you, and sorry that you had such a rough time.

      Reply ↓
  80. Red Canary*

    A program I’m in for work had us get headshots to put on the internal site. We’d been told they would be professionally touched up- ive had this done before and assumee that meant color correction, fixing obvious blemishes or flyaway hairs… that sort of thing. I got mine back and turned it in today. I didn’t really like it, but I thought it was just because it was overly formal… and then I took a closer look and realized that my chin had been photoshopped to look thinner. (I’m a cis woman, but a pretty average sized one.) (My skin also looks a little tanner, but honestly given how pale I am, that might also just be them trying to color correct, or make sure I don’t blend into the background– either way, it’s approximately what I would look like in the summer and it doesn’t *really* bother me so much.)

    Is this worth bringing up to the person who organized the photos? This really bothers me, but the program it’s for is a leadership program that could lead to major promotions at this company and I don’t want to be seen as causing a big fuss. :/

    Reply ↓
    1. Shipbuilding Techniques*

      That is icky! I vote for bringing it up in a matter-of-fact way that shows the before and after side by side….that touchups Y and Z in the after photo seem to misrepresent your real appearance and would it be possible for them to take another pass at it.

      Reply ↓
  81. Jay*

    Today my supervisor, who behaves like a pedantic child who’s just discovered the dictionary or perhaps like an excited puppy (it depends on his mood, but quiet and concise are not modes he seems able to operate in- it’s not just subordinates either I’ve watched him do this shit to the president of our org), told me to be “nicer” when trying to keep our interactions on track. I am .000002 more instances away from just letting him derail us as much as he wants and letting Team Lead deal with the fallout, but as of ~5pm today we are caught up on tickets for the first time in my almost two years working here (and according to supervisor it’s never happened for him either, he’s been here almost 5 years now) and selfishly I don’t want to let that slip immediately just because of his behavior- the ticket backlog has been flat out unacceptable since I got here, and I’m really proud that between me and our new coworker we are finally on track.

    Reply ↓

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