socializing at hybrid team meetings, job offer was pulled after a reference check, and more

by Alison Green on January 29, 2025

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. How do I balance work and socializing at hybrid team meetings?

I (a young-looking woman) lead a team of about 15, composed of 3-4 smaller sub-teams that collaborate on various parts of the project. About half the team work remotely; a quarter at Site A, including my deputy and me; and a quarter at Site B. Team members range from junior to mid-career, heavy on junior. We have at least one meeting per project topic area per week for tracking progress and working through more complex issues together.

I have a hard time closing down the first “social” 5-15 minutes of a meeting; the chit chat expands and we run out of time for our actual agenda items. Our remote staff are particularly social. I like them and would enjoy our chats, but my social battery gets (happily) drained by interacting with in-person colleagues (both on and off this project) and an active social life and hobbies. With people at my site, I’m able to chat organically in the hall or while walking to meetings, make it a coffee break, etc.

I do not have time nor energy for more than ~20 minutes of Zoom call social chatting per typical day, but that’s gotta split across the 2-5 calls per day. But I want all my staff to feel connected and happy at work! I’m also a people pleaser and a little socially anxious. How soon into a meeting can and should I redirect to the agenda? How can I do this without making people think I’m an emotionless computer, or get out of my head where I’m terrified of that outcome?

Several times in the past when I’ve tried removing the “smiles and exclamation marks” veneer, others coworkers who I previously had positive work relationships with reacted defensively as if I were attacking them or their work. In every instance, other colleagues present verified for me afterwards that my content and tone were appropriate and accurate. So I’m particularly sensitive that I might come across as a robot or a jerk, create unpleasantly chilly relationships, or lose my staff to other projects (they can switch projects as they want).

15 minutes of chat at the start of a meeting is a lot. Five minutes is reasonable, particularly if you have a lot of remote team members who don’t have many other opportunities for that sort of social connection with each other. But it is very reasonable — and very normal — to interject after five minutes (really, three to five) and say, “Well, let’s get started so we can get through all our agenda items.” If you make a point of warmly joining in on the chatting before that, you will be much less likely to come across as chilly when you do call the meeting to order.

When you’re leading a remote team, it’s reasonable to see those five minutes as part of the work you invest in your team culture and connections. But it’s really okay to move things along after that. And I would bet good money that some of your team members will appreciate you doing it, and are aggravated by how much meeting time is being spent on non-work stuff … doubly so if you’re not getting through your agenda.

You can also occasionally try moving the chat to the end of the meetings! You can say, “I want to jump into our agenda so we don’t run out of time, but if we have time at the end, anyone who wants to is welcome to stay on to continue this part of the conversation.” And then at the end, you can say, “I need to jump off and I think some others may too, but anyone who wants to stay on, please feel free!” That said, I think you’ll see less of it then — since by the end of a meeting most people are ready to be done — but you could at least make it clear it’s an option for people who want it.

2. My job offer was rescinded after a reference check

After a great interview last week, I accepted a job offer at a hospital. Yesterday, the offer was abruptly rescinded. HR personnel and the hiring manager will not give details, but they stated that it was solely due to “unsatisfactory references.” This is a shock to me because these references are supervisors and colleagues who I have good or great relationships with. I had confirmed with all of these individuals beforehand if they would be willing to offer a recommendation, and they had enthusiastically agreed. When I explained to these colleagues why the offer was rescinded, they were stunned. The third party recruiter, my references, and I are still convinced this is a mistake, that they must have their applicants mixed up somehow. So far, HR and the hiring manager insist there is no mistake. My recruiter told me, “I have been doing this for 15 years and I’ve never seen this. I’m at a loss.”

Have you encountered this before? Could the offer have been rescinded for another reason? Do I have any recourse here?

It’s possible that it was a mistake. It’s also possible that your references did give you good reviews but said something in passing that concerned the hiring manager. For example, most reference checks ask about weaknesses, and it’s possible a reference named something that they thought was minor but it happened to be something would cause a problem in this particular job or is a particular bugaboo of the manager’s. It’s also possible the hiring manager simply misunderstood something. (For thoroughness, I’ll also note that when done well, reference checks aren’t supposed to be a simple thumbs-up/thumbs-down but more nuanced — although when they’re done post-offer, they are nearly always closer to a rubber stamp, so that’s less likely to be in play.)

You don’t really have any legal recourse here; employers are allowed to rescind job offers, especially when they’re contingent on things like post-offer reference checks (which are generally a terrible practice). But the recruiter is in a better position to push for more information and to push them to check that a mistake wasn’t made. Since she’s at a loss too, can you ask her to try that?

3. Discussing gun ownership with coworkers

I have a perhaps odd question about professional boundaries. I am a petite woman who lives alone. I somehow send out creepy people homing vibes and have had one or two frightening moments where I could have gotten hurt. (I know someone is going to tell me to read Gift of Fear. I already have, and I am working on becoming less of a target, but we all know sometimes creeps just gonna creep.)

I would like to purchase a gun that I would keep in my home for self-defense. I would of course secure it, practice regularly, and take all other actions I can to make sure I’m never in a situation where I’d need it.

I live in a state where gun laws are very strict. To buy a gun, I must first find two state residents who will testify to my good character. This has been a challenge as most people here oppose or at least are suspicious of gun ownership. I think they’d endorse my character generally but would not want to assist me in buying a gun by writing that down.

I have two coworkers who have mentioned in passing that they themselves own guns. The work we do together is in a physically hazardous environment, so these two coworkers have seen how I deal with safety issues, which I hope would speak well to my ability to be a responsible gun owner. They’ve also watched me interact interpersonally and can testify I’m reasonable.

Would it be unprofessional of me to contact them outside of work channels and ask if they would be willing to serve as a reference in this way? Both are senior to me, so I don’t think they could worry that I would penalize them if they said no. It just feels weird and possibly intrusive to discuss such a controversial issue with a professional contact. Would it make a difference if one person had left the company?

I want to say up-front that my answer to this might be influenced by my own discomfort with guns, but this makes me nervous. On one hand, these are people who are clearly comfortable with gun ownership themselves and it might be completely fine! On the other hand, if they don’t feel comfortable saying yes, you’d be putting them in a pretty uncomfortable position (where they’d need to essentially tell a colleague, “No, I don’t endorse your character”), and I don’t love that.

If you wanted to feel them out, one option is to approach them for advice about the process generally, since it’s something they’ve already mentioned. Explain you’re considering buying one, don’t know anyone outside of work with first-hand experience with the process, and enter the conversation that way. It’s possible that will create an opening to bring it up organically. Otherwise though, I’d err on the side of caution and keep it out of work.

4. Phone interviews when you’re hard of hearing

My husband is hard of hearing, especially on the phone. He has had a couple interviews that he tanked because he misheard a question or kept asking them to repeat the question. He doesn’t have hearing aids, but I think he needs them. I keep encouraging him to get tested. He mishears me all the time or doesn’t hear me at all if one of us is facing away while talking.

There are a couple things he says helps, like wearing headphones for a call, using a desk phone rather than a cell, or taking a call in his car with the Bluetooth speakers. Three times now, interviewers have unexpectedly called him outside their scheduled interview times where he isn’t able to get into his car or find headphones quickly. He didn’t want to miss the opportunity, so he tried talking on his cell phone. He couldn’t hear most of what was said. He got feedback on how poorly he did, like his answers had nothing to do with the questions or that he didn’t know the answers because he repeatedly asked interviewers to repeat their questions.

I advised him to tell the interviewers he can’t take the call at the moment but is happy to keep their scheduled time or reschedule so he can get to a place he can hear, or just be up-front that he is hard of hearing and request some accommodations like a Zoom call where multiple interviewers and my husband can use headsets. My husband doesn’t want to because he’s in his 50s and he’s afraid of looking old or incapable, like he can’t do a phone call or meeting. I pointed out people of any age can have hearing issues, and it’s got to be better than them thinking he doesn’t know anything.

I have more experience interviewing and I’ve never had interviewers call outside scheduled times “because everyone was in the office” just then. What is the best way to handle this? Tell them he can’t talk? Ask them to hold until he can get into his car? Ask them to call our landline? Any of these? I’d like to say his worry about ageism is wrong but we’re both getting to an age now where I do see some of that in the workplace.

Ideally he’d just ask to reschedule for a more convenient time, but I can understand why he’s hesitant to; while it’s a perfectly reasonable request, sometimes the rescheduled call will never end up happening. Given that, the next best option is to say, “Can you give me a minute while I get to a quieter place to talk?” so he has time to find headphones or go to his car. (It also sounds worth keeping headphones easily accessible in the places where he spends the most time during the workday.) It’s also fine to say, “I seem to have a bad connection — could you call me right back on my land line?”

You’re also absolutely right that he could simply ask for accommodations (which they’re required by law to provide), but he’s not wrong about the risk of discrimination — both age and disability discrimination. But one of the other suggestions should get these calls back on track.

Related:
what’s up with surprise phone interviews?

5. Can my boss require me to use a vacation day on my last day of work?

I am leaving a job I love at the end of the month due to a health issue. I have a great relationship with my boss and my coworkers, and the job has been a really great fit, so I’m really sad that I need to leave.

My boss, her boss, and another admin person are all scheduled to be off on the last day of the month. There are exit procedures that need to be done on my last day, so my boss asked if I would take vacation on that day so we could do them the day before. I’d rather work that day and cash out as much vacation as possible, so I’m basically being asked to forfeit a day’s pay. Can my boss ask me to do this?

Yes. They can also set your last day for an earlier date if they want to, which would be functionally the same thing (which doesn’t necessarily mean that they will, just that they could). But if you explain you’d prefer not to, it’s possible they’ll work with you on a different arrangement. You could try saying, “Would it be possible for us to do the exit procedures on the 30th and then I’ll spend the 31st finishing up X and Y? I’m hoping not to use up any vacation time before I leave.” They might say no — and they might not be able to say yes, if you won’t be able to work once the exit procedures are done — but it’s reasonable to ask.

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{ 393 comments }

{ 393 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Love to WFH*

    Remote workers do need more time to socialize, but you don’t need to let it take over meetings.

    Set your meetings to allow attendees to join early before the host. Let people know that they can join early to catch up, and occasionally show up early yourself. People who want to chat will show up early. Those who don’t will be spared.

    Do you use Slack (or the like)? Set up a channel for pet pictures, and let people know they can have other non-work channels.

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    1. nnn*

      Slack is what I was thinking too – you could have a channel called “social” or “off-topic” or “casual chitchat” or whatever works for your team culture, and people could connect there.

      If they want to talk verbally, maybe set up/encourage people to set up a regular “coffee break” zoom

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      1. Pizza Rat*

        A past workplace does that and it works great. There were even interest-based Slack channels like a book club and a recipe exchange. Nobody spent a ton of time on it, usually just a five-minute break here and there.

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          1. Freya*

            My husband’s workplace has one of those social channels dedicated to pets. He occasionally posts pictures of our mastiff, which always get a LOT of likes-equivalent

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    2. allathian*

      On our weekly team meetings, we generally start with a casual chat. People tend to log on either a few minutes early or on the dot. We have a couple minutes of casual chat at the beginning, and never more than 5 minutes. Officially, none of us are fully remote, but because we’re a distributed team, some casual chat helps build team spirit.

      During the lockdowns when my whole team was fully remote, we set up Teams meetings for people to socialize. Some logged in more often than others, I was nearly always there because I have fewer meetings than most of my coworkers. Some job functions required employees to go to the office, but the rest of the office was kept empty to ensure they could work safely, like everyone who had to go to the office because of their job got assigned an office with a door so that they didn’t have to mask all day, regardless of their position on the org chart.

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      1. Marion Ravenwood*

        My old job did a virtual happy hour during the lockdown as well, although despite the name there was no obligation to drink on the call! I was a fairly regular attendee (I was furloughed for most of the pandemic so it was a nice way to keep in touch with colleagues and not feel so out of the loop when I came back to work), but it was very much a casual, dip in and out as work allows kind of vibe. I wonder if something like that is an option for LW1 – it might not totally eliminate all the chat at the beginning, but it does give people an opportunity to get the social stuff out of the way and have it not interfere with meetings too much.

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      2. Lily Rowan*

        Starting early was going to be my suggestion, depending on how meeting-heavy people’s days are. There’s a team where I work that has a weekly meeting that “starts” 15 minutes early for optional socializing, which seems to work for them.

        Piggybacking on Chris’s comment, when my team was fully remote, we added a weekly socializing “meeting” in addition to our regular business meetings. People really liked it!

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    3. Chris*

      Another possibility is setting up an optional weekly meeting dedicated to socializing, so that those who want more social connection can get it without either interfering with the meeting agenda or pulling in those who would rather not socalize.

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      1. Squishy*

        Yes, came here to say this. If your schedule permits, you could set up a recurring social zoom and then it might land more softly when you start jumping right into other meeting agendas. I’m on a remote team and we do this – there are still one or two minutes of “how was your weekend” in regular meetings but not disruptive.

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      2. Toledo Mudhen*

        During lockdown, my boss scheduled an optional “Lunch Without the Learning” every week. A lot of people attended, if only to see what everyone else was making for lunch.

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    4. GammaGirl1908*

      My very first thought was that this belongs at the end of meetings. People who want to socialize will stay on after the agenda is complete, and people who don’t have time to socialize that day or want to jump off will jump off. If LW can shift social time to the end of the meeting, she can model staying on sometimes and jumping off sometimes, and make that a very normal thing.

      If it’s the culture of the office that everyone chats at the beginning of meetings, then maybe LW can come up with a phrase that she uses to signify the beginning of the agenda, and say it reliably at five minutes after the start time of the meeting. It can even be as simple as what a professor of mine in college always used to say to start the lecture, which was, “all right, let’s get today’s lecture [agenda] underway,” and then he would start the topic of the day.

      Announce what you’re going to start doing. Like, just say, “As of next week, I’m going to start beginning the meeting agenda after about five minutes of social time because we do need to keep these meetings pretty tight,” or say, “I’m going to start shifting our chitchat time to the end of the agenda, so that people can hop off the call at their leisure,” and then do it. This is very much the sort of thing that once you start doing whatever it is you’re going to do and do it reliably, people will fall in line.

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      1. bamcheeks*

        I think I would make it a chit chat whilst you’re waiting for people, and then do, “Phil declined this meeting, so I think everyone’s here. We’ve got a lot to get through, so let’s dive in!” And then make it clear that you are heading off at the end, but that it’s ok if other people stay on.

        I think the big thing for me would be whether to just do it, or do wan explicit “im going to change this around because…” I think it could be useful to say explicitly that you think it’s useful for people to have a bit of social connection time and you’re not anti-social-tak, but it’s not working to have it at the beginning of team meetings. I don’t think there’s wrong answer there so it’s just whichever you feel more comfortable with.

        I would also say that when I was full-time wfh, I found having that kind of conversation in large group meetings excruciating! I much preferred to have social chats in smaller groups or one-on-ones.

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        1. bamcheeks*

          aargh, cut off my last sentence— I meant to say, so I wouldn’t be surprised if there was broad support for the change (if not unanimous) as long as you signal one way or another that you’re not trying to quash socialising all together, just use that meeting differently.

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        2. fhqwhgads*

          Yeah, this is what I’m used to. The people who get there 2-3 min before official start time chit chat, and that’s fine. It’s a “waiting to start” thing. If we know someone is coming and it’s right at the start, we’ll wait one more minute for them, continuing chit chat. Everyone’s here and it’s the start time or 1 min later? We start.

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    5. RavCS*

      I’m in home health care and we have a daily online team meeting every morning at 8:20. People tend to call in 5 – 8 minutes before. Some days a participant will say “hello” or ask a question and there will be a conversation (I’m guessing today there would have been a conversation about the snow and roads, but I was shoveling and got on the meeting right after it started.) However once one of the managers says “good morning” we go right into the meeting. The meeting is anywhere from 2 – 10 minutes. Anyone who has a question or issue can raise it or ask their manager if they can stay on after the call or call them after the call.
      (Of course this works well because the nurses need to get on the road or are on the road to start seeing their patients.)

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      1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        This. I’m in a traditionally conservative, butts in seat, men wear ties, woman wear heels company. Our meetings are on the dot. But they are not draconian. It’s just natural. People get there a little early chat, but when the meeting lead begins, everyone switches to meeting mode. People will say, “let’s catch up after.” It’s not weird. It didn’t need a “setting expectations” conversation. It just happened. Looking back over 30 years, I see that all the meetings in all the groups have been like this. I learned from watching other people. And I guess, other people.
        OP, it does seem weird that people are vested in visiting over business to the point they show frustration. But this is great opportunity to be a problem solver. Using suggestions from the other people, don’t “set expectations” as much as recognize a need and fill it. Good Luck.

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    6. iglwif*

      Where I work (we are fully distributed), each team schedules a biweekly social chat, usually 15-30 minutes, where we specifically don’t have an agenda and try not to talk about work. (We also have Teams chats; some are extremely lively while others get very little traffic, depending on the personalities involved I guess. My current team’s chat is often quite chatty, and it’s an interesting mix of work and social talk. I love it because it allowed me to get to know my new team very quickly when I joined it, but I can also put myself on DND when I need to focus.)

      That doesn’t mean there’s never any social chat at the start of meetings! There usually is. But I’ve never seen it go beyond 3-5 minutes. Most of our meetings are 30 min and everyone wants to get through the agenda.

      If I was in a meeting where the chitchat went on for 15 (!) minutes (!!) I would be quite annoyed by about minute 8 and wandering away to get some work done by minute 10. It really is totally fine — indeed, great! — to wrap up the chat within the first 5 minutes!

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      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        100% this! My team restarted the 2x/week “coffee time” Teams mtgs they had during the pandemic and I like them a lot. There’s usually only a few of us on them (in a 14-person team) – I don’t join all of them myself – we have some very lively and interesting discussions. I work in IT and there are a couple of ppl on the team who seem very introverted – never have their cameras on, only talk about work and when asked a question about one of their tasks – and I’ve never seen them in these coffee mtgs and afaik no one bats an eye at that.

        I worked at a place where we’d have a Monday morning meeting every week and for awhile we had a young employee right out of college who would monopolize the meetings by telling irrelevant stories about dopey things that happened over the weekends. Higher ups seemed to find these stories hilarious but I thought they just made her seem like a flake, and some of my other coworkers agreed with me. It was pretty frustrating when our usual 15-minute Monday mtgs would take over half an hour, with half of the meeting being about some weird date she had or the strange cult her aunt belonged to, and once that person left the org, our meetings shortened considerably.

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        1. iglwif*

          Oh noooooooooo. (Your second paragraph.) I have worked with that person and not been in a position to curb them, and it’s terrible.

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    7. HannahS*

      I agree. Let the meeting open early, then you join right on time and join the social conversation, and then 3-5 minutes past the meeting time, warmly smile and say, “Ok everyone, let’s get started–” and then do it. Or sometimes you can joint at 3 minutes past the hour, apologize for being late, and start the meeting.

      Yesterday, my supervisor very kindly let me join a late afternoon hour-long meeting virtually, so that I could commute home at the same time. By the time we got to the agenda, FORTY MINUTES INTO THE MEETING, I was home. Forty minutes, out of an hour-long meeting! And for half the participants, it’s unpaid time!

      Someone has to take the initiative to keep it moving.

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      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Yeah, I think it’s pretty high on the project management list to be sure that all meetings start on time! I mean, if someone is right nearby and getting coffee or something, wait until that person has finished, but if you don’t know where someone is, don’t spend the first 5-10 min of the meeting trying to track them down and waiting for them to arrive, just start the mtg and let that person deal with the consequences of being late. It’s more respectful of the people who have arrived on time.

        OP, maybe a reset of everyone’s expectations would help? For instance, start the next meeting by saying you know that everyone really enjoys socializing but that you are trying to make better use of the time when everyone is together to address the agenda items you have, so you are going to start these meetings on time from now on. And in the future if the socializing starts to go beyond a couple of minutes, you can use the excuse that you have a hard stop in 30 minutes or you really need to get back to whatever task you were doing before the meeting, and you need to be sure to get through the full agenda in the time you have.

        And then, like others have mentioned above, maybe add in an informal mtg time once or twice a week where people can talk about stuff other than work. I really do like the ones my team has.

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    8. Ann O'Nemity*

      I recognize that people who don’t get to talk to each other often are going to want more socialization time, so I generally agree that having a *well communicated* delayed meeting start can help. (I attend a monthly meeting that has 15 minutes of optional networking baked into the agenda. A lot of people choose to come closer to the real start time.) But if this is happening several times a week (e.g. “at least one meeting per project topic area per week”), 5 minutes of chitchat in meetings seems more than sufficient.

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    9. Person from the Resume*

      I don’t think it’s like a pandemic lockdown though. Work from home employees can interact withots and lots of people after work.

      Also it’s not on work to provide social interactions for their employees.

      I think 5 minutes or less socializing at the start of a call can be okay, but 15 minutes is too much and not having enough time to accomplish work during the scheduled meeting time because of socializing is too much.

      I used to work on a team that did go small talk before starting the meeting – no more than 5 minutes . Now I’m on a team that really gets down to business as soon as everyone is on which might mean a few minutes of chit chat for the early arrivals or more likely they’re on mute waiting for the moderator to start the meeting because they’re trying to finish something else up.

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  2. Edam*

    Five minutes of chitchat at the beginning of my weekly Zoom team meeting is the outer limit of what I can bear. I’d so strongly resent a boss who let it go on for 15 minutes.

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    2. allathian*

      Yeah, me too. Especially if that meant that there wouldn’t be enough time to discuss everything on the agenda. I like socializing with my coworkers, they’re great, but there’s a time and place for everything.

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    4. Falling Diphthong*

      Who let it go on.
      I think this is the key–you need someone senior to firmly move the group onto the agenda at 10:02.

      I think you have a mix of people who like more socializing, people who would prefer less but it’s not their call to derail their colleagues, and people who really wish we would start the meeting already but are not the senior person on the call. The first of those is managing to set the tone because what they are doing is visible/audible, and people are responding to them. While the others are not giving people something to latch onto.

      I want to emphasize that in no way am I criticizing the break-the-ice people–they’re executing a gambit that draws people in to talk. If Ben is always able to be tossed into a group and talk about the weather, that is often a useful quality. You need someone to arise who can say “It certainly is unusually warm this week! Turning to the new formatting of the TPS cover sheets…” Rather than wait for that to happen naturally, or for everyone to lapse into uncomfortable silence.

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    5. Snow Globe*

      Yes. My guess is that less than 50% are the talkers who want to socialize and most people are there waiting to get to the meeting.

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      1. BatManDan*

        It’s proven that once you get more than four in a room, you start to “lose voices.” If you observe and document, you’ll see that 2-3 people are doing all the chit chat, and everyone else is sitting there unhappily.

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        1. anotherfan*

          Enlist your chatterers’ help! I start most of our morning group meetings and there are definitely people who chat and who don’t. I start our meetings 5 minutes early and that five minutes is chat time but when the meeting officially begins, we’re on task. Part of that is everybody knows that five minutes before the meeting officially starts can be used for chats but doesn’t have to be. What you need to do is see who chats and take them aside and ask them to make sure that five minutes after the meeting officially starts (or before it begins), (manager) relies on them to bring things to a close.

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      2. Quiz show*

        I agree. To try to encourage others to participate in my mostly remote team, we’ve added an engagement question. Ex. What’s everyone watching? Share a holiday tradition. What’s your favorite party food for the Super Bowl? Favorite place to travel? This gives everyone an opportunity to speak, keeps it to a reasonable time, helps to get to know each other, and has a clear end. We also rotate who picks the question.

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    6. Antilles*

      I’m one of the people who likes the chitchat and 15 minutes every single week during the meeting time seems excessive even to me.
      On occasion, sure. If the group that hasn’t met for a long time and people want to catch up, if one person has a particularly interesting topic/major life event, or if there’s some major holiday/event where everybody has something to chat about.
      But that’s rare occasions, not consistent.

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    7. iglwif*

      Yep. Even if I were actively participating in the chatting for the first minute or two, I would be wanting to move on by minute 5, getting quite annoyed by minute 8, and checking out mentally to get some work done by minute 10.

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    8. darsynia*

      I was once in a group situation where our 2 1/2 hour allotted time was taken up 90% by ‘catching up’ and the skills we were meant to be learning were given 10 minutes’ lip service instead of the 2 hours+ scheduled. When I spoke up about it during my time to ‘catch up’ with how my life was going, I was told ‘maybe you can shut up so we can get through everyone else’s quicker, then?’ I remained calm, asked the group leader to repeat herself, and left when she confirmed.

      I reported this to the Powers That Be, and lo and behold, that skills seminar was no longer held in that location within a month. That was probably 17 years ago and I’m still mad. No company wants to pay for chitchat instead of training! What a scam.

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  3. Name*

    LW 4 – modern times mean modern solutions. Don’t answer the call if you don’t recognize the number. Let it go to voicemail and then call back. Explain that you thought they were spam, you’ve had a lot of spammy calls lately, or something to that effect. It’s more common to do that than you might think.

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    1. Testing*

      Yes, why are these (scheduled, if I understand it correctly) phone interviews being done at other points in time than when they were scheduled? If we agree a time, that’s the time I’m available and ready to be interviewed.

      There’s not even any need to get into spam calls! Maybe I was at my current job / exercising/ sleeping / wrangling my llamas when they called. It doesn’t matter, we have an appointment and I will be more than happy to answer their questions at that time.

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      1. I Have RBF*

        Seriously. I would be livid if they called while I was sleeping, cooking, in the bathroom, driving to anywhere, sitting in a hospital waiting room, at work, in a meeting, or anywhere if it was not at a scheduled time. If I agree to a time, that means I am ready and prepared for a call and not otherwise engaged. The idea that I would be ready to take a phone screen at any damn time without notice is bonkers.

        If I don’t expect a call, I will let it go to voice mail. If it’s some bananas company doing surprise phone screens, they just found out something about me: I have boundaries, and my phone time is one of them.

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        1. darsynia*

          Wonderfully well put! It speaks to a fundamental failure to understand that an applicant a) has a life of their own, and b) would want to put their best foot forward presenting themselves to the company! You wouldn’t want to ask someone to do important work on the fly (unless they’re on call, of course), with zero warning, and expect good performance… so why would such a fundamentally important aspect of job hunting be on the fly?

          Besides, if they disrespect your time when applying, they’ll disrespect your time even more once you work there.

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    2. allathian*

      Yeah, call at the scheduled time or text to reschedule. Most people wouldn’t want to take a call from a recruiter or set up a phone interview where they can be overheard by their current coworkers/boss! WFH changes things around a bit, but even then it’s entirely reasonable not to want to take a call when you’re in a meeting.

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    3. Joanne*

      I am also hard of hearing. My iPhone lets me use captions for phone calls. That’s a great help. I don’t know if other phones allow this option.

      Reply ↓
        2. AnonymousOctopus*

          Yes, but the host has to be the one who turns them on/allow participants to turn them on, so it’s less elegant if you are trying to not disclose an accessibility need.

          Reply ↓
          1. anotherfan*

            Interesting. I was able to turn on close captioning on Zoom by myself — but maybe that was an option I wasn’t aware the leader had allowed.

            Reply ↓
            1. HigherEd Escapee*

              I was also able to turn them on. I have a colleague who basically whispers so rather than lean ALL the way into my laptop I turned on captions as a permanent setting in Zoom and have just left it on for all of my meetings. It may be an org setting more than a per-meeting setting unless you’re in presentation mode.

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    4. Falling Diphthong*

      I would just say something like “Was occupied and couldn’t answer.” People don’t like being told their calls look like spam.

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      1. MigraineMonth*

        “An unknown number” is the more diplomatic phrasing. I finally figured out how to get my phone to stop alerting me to every spam text message, but it’s by turning off notifications for every unknown number.

        Reply ↓
        1. ecnaseener*

          I don’t even think you need to give a reason at all. “Hi, sorry I missed your call” is just fine. (And the “sorry” is really just for something to say, it’s not like you’ve done anything wrong by not being glued to your phone!)

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      2. Hey there*

        Does one even need an excuse? I feel like I’d (call back and) say “Oh wow I didn’t realize you would call at a time other than the time we agreed to.”

        Reply ↓
    5. Blue Pen*

      Exactly. And honestly, even if you do have their number saved in your contacts, don’t answer it if they’re calling outside the scheduled interview time. I don’t know if this is normal or acceptable for the industry the LW’s husband is in, but that’s crazy to me. It’s perfectly understandable if you can’t (or don’t want to, or aren’t ready to) take that call outside the scheduled time. They’re being extremely rude for assuming you would, as if you have nothing else to do during the day.

      Reply ↓
    6. Lynn Whitehat*

      It’s a terrible job market. If he won’t take the call, someone else will. In this case, it sounds like taking the call is not so easy to do, but I understand the impulse.

      Reply ↓
      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        This seems extreme, tbh. If I were a hiring manager calling someone outside of the time that we had set aside to speak, my expectation that they would be able to answer would be much less than 100%. People are in other meetings, people are doing other work, people could just be in the bathroom!

        If LW’s husband doesn’t return the call in a timely fashion, I can see a hiring manager moving on, but one who drops a candidate simply because the unscheduled call went unanswered is being incredibly unreasonable, imo.

        Reply ↓
        1. Baunilha*

          I agree with Caramel & Cheddar. There are some many reasons why people sometimes just can’t answer the phone, and that doubles for a job-related call: most people wouldn’t be able to take a call from a hiring manager while they are in their current workplace, for obvious reasons.
          If a candidate is impossible to reach, that’s a different story.
          But it seems like OP’s husband is already losing on opportunities because of his hearing issues, so I don’t think he has anything to lose by asking employers to call back later, or simply wait while he grabs his headphones.

          Reply ↓
        2. Sam I Am*

          Yeah, I could see this applying for a very entry-level, high turnover type of job where they hire a lot and speed of hiring is more important than long-term fit in the role. But for most jobs, dropping a candidate (who you liked enough to want to schedule a phone screen with) because they didn’t answer one unscheduled phone call is silly and self-defeating.

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      2. I Have RBF*

        No. Bending over without lube for an employer only leads to misery even in a tough job market. Do not take unscheduled phone screens, it’s too much like working with a shady recruiter.

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    7. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I usually don’t pick up calls, unless I’m expecting medical or interview-related calls. Lynn Whitehat has a point, the OP’s husband seems reluctant to pass up any call with a potential employer, so I feel like it might be more helpful to address how to deal with that.

      I have some hearing impairment, although it sounds like it’s not nearly as bad as OP’s husband (OPH). I’d say the OPH should try to keep their earbuds on them at all times, as I do at home. As someone else said, they could ask the caller to hold for a minute while they put them in, although they may want to practice it once or twice if they also pair their earbuds with other devices, as it’ll take a bit of setup to get them to connect. (I often have to disconnect them from my laptop, then connect them to my cell phone, but I find it much easier to take calls that way.)

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    8. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Yeah, SO MANY people don’t answer calls these days when it’s from someone they don’t know. I don’t think someone calling a job candidate would think it’s a problem if the candidate didn’t answer right away. I get why he would think he needs to answer every single call if he’s looking for a new job, but there’s just no need to do that in this day and age. There are a myriad of reasons why you might not answer and any company who holds that against you is a company you wouldn’t want to work for anyway.

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      1. Elizabeth West*

        Yep, if they’re calling outside that scheduled time, then he can let it go to voice mail.

        If he’s missing the call at the scheduled time or not preparing for it, then that’s on him. I understand where he’s coming from, but he needs to ensure he can hear and understand what is being said.

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    9. MassMatt*

      I am heard of hearing and have to do a lot of work via phone, it can be very difficult when people call outside planned times when you are somewhere with a lot of background noise, etc.

      The best tech for me is having my phone connect directly to my hearing aids via Bluetooth. I don’t need to fumble with a headphone cord or take my hearing aids out to put in wireless headphones.

      My hearing aids connect via Bluetooth to my computer also so I can use them for virtual meetings, though I find that the connection can get much more finicky (for example, if I get a phone call during the meeting, or an alert for an email or something pops up on my screen) so whenever possible I call in to meetings via the phone line instead of using Bluetooth to computer.

      I get not wanting to seem “old” and the risk of age or disability discrimination, but much of this can be invisible to others. Most of my clients have no idea I have a (pretty severe) hearing disability. Also, compare the potential cost of being seen as having bad hearing with the current *known* cost of not hearing!

      I have been wearing hearing aids since I was about five, which has pluses and minuses. On the minus side, it was no fun going through elementary school as the kid with the hearing aids (I’m sure everyone remembers how kind kids are!).
      But on the other I learned to lip read and other coping skills that are harder to adapt to later in life, and I got over any vanity about hearing aids many years ago. For people with deteriorating hearing in middle age and later (very common) it can be a harder road.

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      1. I own one tenacious plant*

        Many people are hung up ‘appearing old’ but with how far hearing aid technology has advanced, the devises are really not noticeable to the casual observer. Also, I think attitudes have changed – needing hearing aids is akin to needing glasses. I also read decreases in hearing can have a detrimental affect on brain function, and on a personal note, I would find talking to my dad so much more enjoyable if he would get his hearing checked!! My mom has them and is finding it easier to navigate noisy public places. I strongly suspect hearing aids will be in my future as well.

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        1. CommanderBanana*

          I think wearing hearing aids doesn’t make you look as old as having to ask people to repeat themselves over and over does.

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          1. Dust Bunny*

            Good grief, this! My mother needs and has hearing aids but won’t wear them, and mishearing/asking people to repeat things all the time makes her seem much older than would just wearing the things. And her are tiny</i<; they are very hard to see.

            But also, if it's a phone interview they're not going to see if hes wearing hearing aids or not. He should get tested and get them. He'll probably need them at the job, anyway.

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      2. LL*

        Yes! Also, there are plenty of people who get hearing aids when they’re younger and it’s becoming more common since everyone is listening to music on their headphones all the time. I got a hearing aid when I was 30, it’s not an “old person” thing.

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    10. The Starsong Princess*

      This guy needs hearing aids and he needs them today. His hearing loss is negatively impacting his life. I don’t understand the reluctance to get them. For the short term, get som air pods and use the hearing aid feature on calls. He should attach them to his key chain so he always has them. It’s two seconds to put them in for a unexpected call.

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      1. HigherEd Escapee*

        As someone in a very similar position to the OP, I agree. OPH’s hearing is impacting him as well as OP. I know exactly what it’s like not to be able to have a conversation with my spouse when we’re in a noisy restaurant, not be able to be heard when his back is turned, and to have to say the same thing over and over again. It’s a quality of life issue as much as an employment issue, as many/most/all disabilities are.

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      2. CommanderBanana*

        Seriously. I’m a bit biased because I just came back from a visit with my inlaws and my FILs hearing is gone. He needs better hearing aids and a full hearing workup. Pretty much every conversation was just a round of “What?” and repeating stuff over and over until we all gave up or he got frustrated and angry. Conversations with any ambient noise were impossible.

        Wearing hearing aids doesn’t “make you look old.” Asking people to repeat themselves over and over and being unable to participate in conversations because you’re refusing to wear hearing aids makes you look old.

        I know hearing aid technology isn’t perfect and they’re still a PITA, but the new ones that link to your phone are much easier to use and customize for your environment as you need to.

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    11. Smithy*

      Spam or not, I do think it’s always a helpful reminder to not be rushed into urgency that every call needs to be taken ASAP when interview.

      Way way back when I first started having interview calls go to my cell phone, I remember taking a call that I thought might have just been a scheduling call but was an initial screening/first interview. I ended up taking that call in a parking lot near a loud street and was just not a great time/space for me or my audio.

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      1. Elizabeth West*

        This, and if the call is legitimately from an employer, they WILL leave a message. I know it’s a thing now not to like phone calls but they’re part of business and I don’t see that going away anytime soon, regardless of whether the platform is landline, cell, or Teams/Zoom.

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  4. Karma*

    LW1 I find that it helps to include an agenda in the meeting invite with some guides around how long I expect to spend on each item. This helps to set the expectation with people. e.g.
    Project meeting agenda:
    5 mins – check in/catch up (this can be the social part)
    15 mins – project updates
    5 mins – specific thing I need to discuss
    5 mins – any other business

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  5. Who's Zooming Who (not the aretha version)*

    LW1, why can’t you send an email saying something like the zoom/webex will be open socialization and chat 15 minutes before the meeting starts but moving ahead you’ll be starting the ‘formal’ part of the meeting on time to ensure all things on the agenda are covered?

    Reply ↓
    2. RIP Pillowfort*

      That’s sort of how we handle meetings for our office. The you can log in prior to the meeting and socialize so that we start on time. Doesn’t work if you have back to back meetings but if I have those I absolutely don’t have time for socializing to begin with.

      Basically when Outlook gives the 15 minute until meeting start warning I generally see people starting the meeting who are going to socialize.

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  6. Kay*

    Disclaimer up front for LW 3: I live in a very gun friendly area and everyone in my office hunts with rifles and/or bows. That said, your coworkers have already mentioned guns in passing, or you wouldn’t know they are gun owners! I’d start the convo by asking them who they used as a reference, but ask them straight out if they seem receptive to the gun small talk. Just make sure no bystanders are around, if you are worried about perception. All the gun owners I know take the responsibility seriously, and (as hunters) want to encourage others to follow in their footsteps. Idk how much of that translates to self defense, but I would guess a lot.

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    1. whocanpickone*

      I live in a non-friendly state, and I also agree with this advice. If OP is worried about starting the conversation, just ask about the process and most likely, one of them will offer to be a reference anyway.

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    2. Ginger Baker*

      This was my take as well. I am not – and never will be – a gun owner (and not in a location where it is the norm) but I have known a few and my strong impression is that folks who own guns are pretty supportive of everyone’s right to own one. I don’t think bringing it up (not in hearing of others) risks anything really. I think worst case you may get a reply of “oh sorry, I have a rule not to vouch for anyone I don’t have a personal relationship with” or something along those lines. I doubt it will be a shocking or upsetting ask to make.

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      2. sb51*

        Yeah, I’m not a gun person either but I live in a state with similar (or the same) laws and know some gun people—they’ll be fine with the request, and it’s normal to turn it down if you don’t feel you know enough about the person to be a reference, too.

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        1. Venus*

          I think that’s a good way to phrase it. I agree with starting out asking about the process, though I’d be tempted to quickly go straight to the point and not waste their time while they answer a lot of questions where OP already researched the answers. OP can mention the need for references and ask if they feel that they know OP well enough.

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          1. Lab Boss*

            Agreed, if I were in OP’s shoes I’d be open about being interested in the references, but also open to them not wanting to give them immediately. Maybe they want to get to know her better or chat about guns or take her to the range or whatever, but they’d know she wanted a reference and wouldn’t feel like they were getting “tricked” into giving one.

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    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Honestly, I was a little surprised by Alison’s answer, as this doesn’t feel any more sensitive than asking a coworker if they can be used as a (job) reference. Less so, even, in that you don’t have to worry about your job search being kept confidential or not. And I grew up in NYC, where legal gun ownership is heavily regulated and uncommon.

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      1. me*

        It’s putting someone in a position where they might feel uncomfortable saying “no,” like many other situations discussed on the blog. I think the advice would be similar if you were asking someone to be a character witness in a child custody or foster parent situation.

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    4. Box of Kittens*

      I had this thought as well. I live in a very gun friendly state (for better or worse :/) but of the many, many people I know who own guns, most of them are very willing to share safety and responsibility knowledge, including the process for getting them. Gun culture is very layered, but if you show a desire to own and use one responsibly, most gun owners will want to support you. I don’t think it would be taboo to ask about a reference, and the way Alison suggested framing the conversation is great.

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      1. Lab Boss*

        Guns are obviously a much bigger deal and require more care than many hobbies, but it’s worth remembering that for many gun owners it IS a hobby. If someone is interested in my hobby, I’m probably interested in talking to them about it and sharing tips (and making sure they know how to be safe, if relevant- like if they were getting into rock climbing or power lifting).

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    5. That Paralegal*

      I live in a gun-friendly area as well. Gun dudes LOVE to tell women to buy firearms, in my experience. The downside of talking to the gun dudes about this is they will want to gun-splain to you all the time, and then invite you to go to the gun range if they’re at all interested in a social relationship, and then you have to listen to their gun stories all the time.

      *Also, here, I’ll say it before anyone else does: Not All Gun Dudes. But lots of them. So proceed with caution.

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      1. Venus*

        Like a lot of things in life, the best way to screen out difficult people is to see if they are obnoxious about their hobbies and then avoid those that are. I have a coworker who goes to the range regularly and has offered to take me anytime, yet he mentioned all of this once when I made a comment about potentially being interested and he would never bring it up again unless I asked.

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        1. Rocket Raccoon*

          Yeah, I live in an area where a lot of people have guns (mostly long guns) for both food and sport. I went to the range once with my coworkers, we had fun, and never did it again. None of us were “gun people” but just people who like venison.

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      2. Greta*

        +1 Gun Dudes get hyper obsessed and it can be a tight rope to walk on navigating conversations with these colleagues. You almost have to have them see you beyond just someone to talk to about guns. And I say that having largely lived in gun friendly states. These guys may not be creeps, though they likely have at least one gun friend that is a bit too much.

        OP, if you didn’t know, most states have a Becoming an Outdoor Woman program to provide opportunities and support to women wanting to learn outdoor skills, and many have gun safety training and advice for shopping as clothing, equipment, accessories, etc. are made for burly dudes and not petite women (https://www3.uwsp.edu/cnr-ap/bow/Pages/States-and-Provinces-offering-BOW.aspx). So this can be a great way to meet other women with similar goals and share stories such as how certain ranges treat women or creepy dudes at gun ranges and getting recommendations for your license.

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    7. NothingIsLittle*

      Yeah, I absolutely think Alison’s discomfort with firearms influenced the answer here! Of course, the OP needs to be careful about asking the coworkers, but in the same way you’d be careful asking a coworker for any other potentially charged personal favor.

      I will grant that some people, myself included, 100% support hunting but are also very concerned about guns being used for personal safety, so I don’t mean to suggest that it’s a given the two coworkers will be fine with the recommendation. But I’ve lived most of my life in places with robust hunting cultures and most of the gun people I’ve known would have been perfectly happy to discuss receiving a license, good options for training, and any tips/tricks for navigating the local ranges.

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    8. Pescadero*

      I’m a hunter and multiple gun owner.

      I take it very seriously – and want to encourage others to hunt.

      …but if you ask me about self defense – I will tell you the statistical reality. Guns in your home make you less, not more, safe.

      The risk may be worth the benefits recreationally – but guns do not make you safer.

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      1. Whomst*

        To piggy back on this, statistics don’t always tell the whole story. It is entirely possible to own, manage, and use a gun to improve your safety. Doing so is A Lot Of Work. If you are not familiar with owning a gun or are only familiar with hunting rifles you will underestimate how difficult it is to follow gun safety All The Time. And if you’re in a gun unfriendly state, using a gun for self defense is in many ways more difficult to do safely and consistently because you’re not only navigating basic gun safety, but you’re navigating social perceptions and more complex legislation about where you can and cannot bring a gun.

        I’ve spent most of my life in gun friendly states and am friends with many many hunters and a couple people who own handguns. I don’t know anyone who owns a gun “for self defense” that I would both trust to have children in their house (because of their laxity around gun storage) and actually be able to defend someone (because if they’re not lax about gun storage they’re not actually going to have the gun when it would be useful).

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        1. Jenesis*

          That’s a good point. I was battling suicidal ideation and very unhappy about having guns in the house when I first moved in with my now-husband, and we came to an agreement about where and how he is required to store them, so I don’t have access to them and I never have to look at or think about them unless I specifically ask to. It does mean that the guns won’t help me in a home defense situation (I have joked before that my “gun self-defense” consists of finding the nearest gun case and beating the intruder over the head with it) but I’m not trained to use them in such a scenario and I have no desire to obtain such training, so at the very least our storage solution isn’t making me any UNsafer.

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        2. Pescadero*

          ” It is entirely possible to own, manage, and use a gun to improve your safety.”

          In very, very rare conditions I might agree… but even then, it likely reduces safety for anyone else who lives in or enters your home.

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      2. anonarama*

        yep…we have guns in our house, my partner hunts regularly and i hunt sometimes. if someone came to us asking for help getting a handgun for self defense, they would instead get a lot of data about how guns make people less safe. so….like maybe know what kind of gun person they are first? and the best way to do that is to talk guns with them

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    9. about that*

      There’s no point in owning a gun for self defense if you’re not going to train with it regularly. So LW 3 is getting ahead of herself. The first question should be whether she has the budget and the time for regular visits to the range, and regular purchases of ammunition.

      If it’s in the budget, the next question to answer is whether there’s a range she can get to and train at. Ideally, one that offers gun rentals and gun classes. If there’s a range with classes that she can get to, there’s a lot of work she can put in, before getting to the point of buying a gun. She might take a couple classes and decide guns aren’t for her anyway. She might conclude that guns aren’t the right tool for self-defense.

      If, after renting a gun and taking a few classes, she still thinks this is the right solution for her, I’m sure the range staff or the instructors of her classes would be more than happy to vouch for her good character. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s even offered as a feature of taking a class.

      I think the LW is missing the very important point of the character reference: Actually earning the respect of other reputable gun owners, as a gun user yourself. Nobody should be vouching for a work acquaintance, sight unseen. Nobody who thinks that’s a good idea should be anywhere near a gun store.

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      1. LW 3*

        Thanks! I asked here in part because I wasn’t at all sure how to get started. I absolutely plan to train and take classes at a gun range, but I thought there might be even more inappropriate pressure in asking someone there to be a reference, as maybe it would be a conflict of interest for them (more references = more sales?) Maybe not, I don’t know.

        I am responsible for others’ safety in hazardous environments at work, which is why I thought these two coworkers might feel comfortable endorsing me. But, if recommenders would like to see how I operate with guns specifically before making any statement about my level of responsibility, that is 100000% their right.

        Basically I don’t know how the gun community works. I like other commenters’ ideas of quietly asking about the process first. That’s a lower pressure question and what I really need to know to get started.

        Reply ↓
        1. Abogado Avocado*

          LW3, I have lived in a gun-unfriendly state a lot like where you live and want to endorse what “about that” has written. Go to a reputable gun store (not a gun show at a convention center), ask about training and safety courses, and the steps to gun ownership in your state. Reputable gun stores will tell you how to sign up for firearms and safety training, can recommend reputable firearms instructors, and detail the steps you need to take to submit a firearms ownership application.

          (Along the way, you may also will want to call your home insurer about whether gun ownership will increase your premiums.)

          Many, but not all, firearms instructors are current or retired peace officers. If you satisfactorily complete training with one of them, you will have at least one of your endorsers for your application. But, as “about that” points out, that’s getting ahead of the story. At this point, you really want to dive into firearms and safety training and determine whether firearms ownership really is for you.

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        2. Jenesis*

          I don’t know the details of your laws, but I don’t think that “a guy I’ve known for all of 3-15 hours (because I paid them to teach me about guns)” would necessarily serve as a credible character reference anyway. If your state requires a training course or firearms safety demonstration, they can probably administer that, though.

          The other upside of taking a class is that you might get to know other cool people who can eventually vouch for your character and – more importantly – accompany you to the range to try before you buy. A well-run range will not rent to solo non-owners because of various safety and liability issues, and it will suck to blow $500+ on a gun you’ve never shot and only afterward discover that it isn’t right for you.

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        3. Pescadero*

          “Basically I don’t know how the gun community works.”

          That is because there is absolutely no monolithic “gun community”. There is a wildly varying range of beliefs about guns and gun regulation in the “gun communities” (plural).

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        4. Lab Boss*

          Related to your concern about the conflict of interest- It’s likely to be a non-factor. Any amount of sales they get from you, even if you’re paying them for range time and ammunition for regular practice, will pale in comparison to what they’re getting from a single dedicated “gun nut.” You just won’t move the needle on their income enough for them to give you a reference you don’t deserve just to get your money.

          I can also tell you as a former gun instructor, I would be absolutely 0% surprised to be approached by people like you if I lived in a state with that requirement. As other commenters have said, go to a well-established and well-regarded gun store/range and I would bet they not only won’t find it inappropriate, they probably already have an established procedure for “random newbie comes in needing instruction and a reference.”

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        5. about that*

          You’re welcome!

          The best place to learn about the gun community is in the gun community. Go to a range, take a class, talk to people who share your interest.

          Also, I think you’re overthinking the referral aspect. There’s almost certainly no conflict of interest issue. I took my motorcycle license test from a class put on by a motorcycle dealership. The potential for new customers was obviously a big part of why they put on the class. I doubt if it’s much different for firearms instructors and gun ranges.

          As far as guns for self defense goes, I suggest you watch some police shooting bodycam videos on YouTube. Then ask yourself how often you expect to be in a situation where you know there’s a deadly threat, it’s still some distance away, and you don’t have the option of simply fleeing the scene.

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        6. Gun Adjacent*

          Asking about the process is certainly a good way to start. I live in a state that is very liberal where you often encounter anti-gun ownership believers and I grew up in an anti-gun household. My husband has always been a gun owner and most people in his family own guns. What I have come to realize is that gun ownership is really not controversial among gun owners, so I doubt there would be any problems with discussing it with your gun owning colleagues. We generally don’t discuss gun ownership with anyone but other gun owners, but among them it’s like discussing cars, in other words not like a discussion of an illicit activity.

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    10. bucketsofdonuts*

      I would strongly suggest to LW3 that she take a gun safety or women’s handgun self-defense course BEFORE she buys a gun, especially if she has never shot one or has only limited experience. Taking such a course (in which I hit many bullseyes and had fun shooting) made me even more certain I would never have one in the house. Among other things, it’s very easy for the bad guy to get ahold of your weapon and use it against you. You also must be willing to shoot to kill.

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      1. I Have RBF*

        IIRC, in my state you need to pass a test on gun safety before you can even try to buy a gun. This is a good thing, because it puts safety first. There are other things as well, but I haven’t looked at the current laws in detail.

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  7. Decidedly Me*

    LW2 – as Alison mentioned, rescinding the offer over references doesn’t mean that anyone specifically gave a bad reference. I once had someone I was sure I was going to give an offer to until it came to her references. All of the references were glowing, but they also all mentioned the same weakness. This was something that probably wouldn’t be a big deal in a lot of roles, but it was in ours, so I didn’t make the offer.

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    1. DeliCat*

      My old boss threatened to pull an offer for a candidate because the dates didn’t match up exactly. There was a couple of months discrepancy which made him think the candidate was either careless or trying to make it seem like he’d worked at the previous company for a few months longer than he had.

      Turns out the company was no longer operational and the reference just provided a rough estimate.

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    2. Suze*

      It is also not impossible that the offer was rescinded for a different reason (a better candidate appeared) but they used the reference as a cover because they had already made a verbal offer.

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    3. Refer this*

      I once had someone I was sure I was going to give an offer to until it came to her references. All of the references were glowing, but they also all mentioned the same weakness […] so I didn’t make the offer.

      Please tell me you explicitly communicated this to the candidate instead of sending out some completely unactionable boilerplate (e.g., “We regret that you have not been successful on this occasion”)?

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      1. pally*

        That’s the key here! Let the candidate know exactly why. Who knows, maybe the candidate can counter with some remediations they’ve done to remedy any shortcomings the references may cite.
        If ya liked the candidate enough to take the time to check refs; why not give them the chance to address the shortcoming?

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        1. Yikes on Bikes*

          As a hiring manager I would not give this feedback, especially unsolicited! And I certainly wouldn’t open up a negotiation with the candidate on potential “remediation” to the shortcoming.

          What if the manager disregards her instincts, takes a chance and hires the person, and they start off thinking everything is open to debate? That’s a management nightmare! I know people get rejected for seemingly BS reasons all the time, but giving someone hope is potentially cruel and/or can lead to a really bad situation if they do get hired.

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          1. Also-ADHD*

            Really, though, if the reference checks are going to be that crucial, involved, and nuanced in the process, you should do them pre-offer. I can see a background / basic check post-offer, but if it is coming down to how references describe something, it seems very odd.

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      2. MigraineMonth*

        Getting a clear explanation of why you were rejected is not a reasonable expectation in the job search process, particularly since in DecidedlyMe’s case the rejection came *before* the offer. (I’d say LW2’s case–where an offer was pulled–does require an explanation.)

        Would it be nice if the job search process had more transparency and honesty? Yes, but that’s not the world we live in. I certainly didn’t tell the company who made me an offer that I was turning it down because I found their business morally objectionable.

        (Also, the only time I’ve been tempted to argue with a hiring manager who rejected me was when they told me why they’d decided I wasn’t a fit for the role. I still think “lack of experience” is a weird reason to reject someone for an entry-level role, particularly since I had 7 years in the field.)

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        1. Refer this*

          Getting a clear explanation of why you were rejected is not a reasonable expectation in the job search process

          In practice, you are of course correct. In principle, however, this seems like a totally bizarre position. I don’t mean to sound confrontational, but are you involved in the hiring process? I imagine that those imvolved in hiring and those who are looking for work have very different attitudes to this problem.

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          1. MigraineMonth*

            No, I’m not involved in hiring. As I said, in an ideal world there would be more transparency and honesty, but at the moment companies aren’t even having the basic decency to send a rejection notice.

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            1. Refer this*

              Thank you. I think I misinterpreted where you’re coming from; we seem to agree that the present siuation is less than ideal from the perspective of most applicants.

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      3. fhqwhgads*

        I mean, the key here is really that they checked the references BEFORE making an offer, which is way better than what happened in the letter where they’d made the offer and then took it back.

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      1. Corrupted User Name*

        This was my thought. A “reference” doesn’t always mean the people given by the candidae as references. The manager or HR could know someone with whom LW previously worked and reached out. This is not at all uncommon. I’vedone this with candidates and also had other managers ask me about people in my professional orbit.

        I don’t necessarily think the company should have been as transparent as they were though, since presumably LW would check with their references about the conversations. But really the company shouldn’t have extended a formal offer without checking references, that can be a recipe for disaster.

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        1. RVA Cat*

          If it was at that awkward phase where she’d accepted the offer but hadn’t given notice, someone could have tanked the reference to keep her.

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      2. Annika Hansen*

        This is what I was thinking. It was not one of her official references, but someone that worked with her before. It happens all the time.

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        1. Ama*

          This was my thought. I worked adjacent to the medical industry – especially if OP has always worked in one specific disease or health area, those are small communities and they might have asked around to a coworker they knew overlapped with OP’s prior employment. That doesn’t rule out the possibility that OP was confused with someone else or that the internal reference remembered OP accurately but it seems more likely to me than one of OP’s listed references being the problem.

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      3. Pay no attention...*

        Yeah, or they called the general business number instead of the direct name/number given as a reference and someone other than the agreed upon reference ended up taking the call.

        It didn’t result in a job offer being rescinded because I was only a finalist at this point, but I submitted a current supervisor with her cell phone number as a reference, and when my prospective employer called the general business phone number and got transferred to HR, it was the business owners wife they ended up talking to; she was stunned and unprepared to find I was job searching. And I was stunned that my prospective employer was not more discrete.

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    5. For Reference Seekers*

      Just a reminder to give your references a heads up, especially if you haven’t stayed in touch.

      I think I inadvertently tanked someone’s job offer. I got a call out the blue from a work acquaintance asking for a reference on someone whom I had worked with long ago. It was so long ago I had trouble remembering the of project we worked on. I said as much glowing as I honestly could, but acquaintance realized I was having troubling remembering.

      I felt bad for the jobseeker. (I know around here LinkedIn is not always valued.) I looked up the jobseeker on LinkedIn. They and I are linked. They don’t post. Most importantly to me, we weren’t in contact since that project at all. Even a heads up that they listed me would have been helpful. IRL, my name is unique and in my corner of the work world, I am very findable.

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    6. Rocket Raccoon*

      I had a coworker who lost a job offer after the background check. He found out later that they had run the background check on the wrong person!

      He was Alexii Ivan Romanov, they ran the check for Alexii I Romanov, and got the file for Alexi Igor Romanov who had an outstanding felony warrant. He found out because he knew someone who already worked there, but they didn’t connect all the dots until a few months later.

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      1. MigraineMonth*

        A name is not, in fact, a unique identifier. Yet we seem to use it as one when it comes to background checks, credit scores, airline no-fly lists, terrorist watch lists… just sharing a name with someone on the government’s shit list can ruin your life.

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        1. 1-800-BrownCow*

          Ain’t that the truth! I used to work with a guy who had a very common first name, very common middle name, and a very common last name and with the misfortune of looking like a shady character (bad genes, unfortunately). He hated flying because 99% of the time he’d get detained. Patted down, questioned, luggage searched, and often asked if his name was accurate. I’ve never met anyone who had more trouble getting through airport security then he did.

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    7. Clown Graveyard*

      Hi, OP here. I have my strengths and weaknesses, to be sure. What doesn’t make sense to me about this situation is that I cannot imagine a “weakness” so concerning that the hospital would pull the offer so abruptly. We met, had a great interview, and they pursued me for days until I finished other interviews. If they wanted me so bad could there not have been a conversation about what this notional weakness was? This seems like a rug pull reserved for someone who had some kind of specific incident or disciplinary action in their past. In my case, I would have appreciated SOME information about the nature of what was unsatisfactory to help me moving forward in my job search.

      The other thing you said is key here: ultimately you didn’t make the offer to that applicant. As Alison said, and I now completely agree with, asking for references post-offer is a terrible practice. Womp womp.

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      1. ecnaseener*

        Who knows, maybe the hiring manager loved you and still wanted to hire you but someone higher up the chain put their foot down. Maybe they talked to someone not on your reference list who had an axe to grind against you. Or maybe they just have strict HR policies about not giving any rejection feedback or chances to discuss references.

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      2. Floppy Ear Dog*

        My guess would be that a higher up, or potential coworker knows you and had something to say against you (work related or otherwise). I work in a medicine-adjacent field (and previously for a hospital) and I have categorically informed bosses that I would not work with Person X, who might otherwise have been a good candidate. I will say that those conversations happened pre-interview, but I could see how it might happen much later in the process.

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      3. Mid*

        Here’s what’s sticking out to me, either:
        -They got one (likely small) piece of information about you and decided to blow up your job offer over that and won’t tell you anything about it (not a good look on their end, though not the most unusual practice, but there should be a higher bar for pulling an offer versus just rejecting someone in the process)

        Or

        -They made a mistake and pulled the wrong job offer and refuse to admit their mistake (not a good look on their end)

        Either way, you’ve learned something about their less than amazing business practices. I wouldn’t want to work for somewhere that pulls offers without explanation or somewhere that refuses to address mistakes (especially in a medical setting!) So, while this is just one thing, I think you have likely dodged a place with at least some fairly major dysfunction, either those specific people or the workplace as a whole.

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  8. Whale whale whale*

    LW4 – I’m hard of hearing and wear hearing aids since my 30s. If you can, get tested. They’re a gamechanger! For the interview, ask for accomodations. If they can’t accommodate your hearing loss for an interview, how do you think they’d do if you worked for them? Would you really want to work in place where they wouldn’t accommodate for your hearing loss? Just something to think about!

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    1. Sharpie*

      My sister, also in her thirties, has also got some hearing loss and is waiting for an appointment to be fitted for hearing aids.

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    2. English Rose*

      Like Whale whale whale, I’ve worn hearing aids since my 30s. I clearly remember the sheer joy of having them fitted for the first time, it was like a whole world of sound opening up. I’m not profoundly deaf – it’s the little nuances I was missing.
      I do understand LW’s husband’s concern. As I’ve got older (60s now) I feel more vulnerable about my hearing loss, but really encourage dealing with this, even though it’s sensitive.

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    3. Mrs Pitts*

      My dad’s hearing aid Bluetooth connect to his phone, so he actually hears quite well on phone calls. Maybe that would be an encouragement?!

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      1. Leia Oregano*

        My supervisor has Bluetooth hearing aids! His are incredibly small and the wire from inside his ear to outside is thin and clear, so unless he points out that he’s wearing them or you look at him at exactly the right angle, you have no idea he even has them in (until he doesn’t, in which case we all know because he can’t hear us). From an outsider’s perspective, it’s gotten so much better since he got them a couple years ago.

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      2. Whale whale whale*

        I got fitted with new ones last month and they do that too! I also stream my podcasts through them, it’s great. And yes, they help immensely with phone calls!

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    4. Magpie*

      Hearing aid technology has also gotten so much better over time. LW’s husband might be thinking he’ll end up with clunky hearing aids that will be obvious to everyone he meets. Most hearing aids today are discreet and can’t be seen unless you’re really looking for them.

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      1. BethDH*

        Turns out I have three coworkers who wear hearing aids. I see them daily and had no idea until my young kid was going through the process of getting them. They’re so small and work so well that I never had reason to notice or need to be told.

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    5. geek5508*

      I finally had my hearing tested a couple years ago. Turns out my hearing was at 50-55%!
      Hearing aids have helped tremendously. Have your husband get tested!

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      1. Samwise*

        That would be a solution but not necessarily an accommodation. You can’t require people to use medical devices.

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      2. MigraineMonth*

        As Alison has pointed out in the past, hearing aids are not like glasses. I have pretty bad vision, but when I put on my corrective lenses they give me 20/20 (or better) vision.

        When my mom puts in her hearing aids, she doesn’t get perfect hearing, the world just gets much louder. This includes the conversation she’s trying to hear, but also any background noise. She still can’t follow a conversation well in a crowded restaurant. Someone making a sudden loud noise, like her granddaughter shrieking in delight over a gift, is physically painful. My mom will often turn off her aids in a noisy environment for some relief.

        Even if hearing aids help for your type of hearing loss, they don’t give you good hearing the way my glasses basically give me good vision, and they come with frustrating side effects. Accommodations such as a quieter workspace or meeting space, closed captioning, video calls instead of phone calls, etc. are still warranted.

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    7. RIP Pillowfort*

      Yeah I really advise OP to show her husband these comments. I’m almost 40 and have slight hearing loss in one ear. I work in construction and even with hearing protection- it’s just a risk of the trade. I’m not at the point I need an aid but I know it’s going to happen sometime in my 40’s most likely. And I will get one when I need it.

      My mother who is 70 has profound hearing loss. She refuses to get hearing aids. But she’s missing out on so much by not being able to hear correctly due to her embarrassment! It’s the same issue we have with her and walking aids. She’s hung up on how “embarassing” it is and doesn’t see the practicality/how it keeps you independent longer! (Disclaimer: I love my mother very much but man she does not see the forest for the trees when it comes to this!)

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      1. Sloanicota*

        Yes, it’s hard to deal with this. I want to say “don’t you find it *more* embarrassing to be missing half the conversation / seeming to be replying with nonsequiturs / needing to ask the person to repeat a bunch of times??” But apparently not!

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        1. Great Frogs of Literature*

          Yeah, I kind-of get the impulse if you can just stay quiet and no one notices, but I would be so much more embarrassed for an interviewer to think I didn’t know what I was talking about because I was answering the wrong questions!

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        2. lanfy*

          Yeah, my Dad resisted getting hearing aids for a very long time for various reasons, but was eventually convinced that maybe paying the extra money to get really good hearing aids was better than destroying all his personal relationships. Because his ‘solution’ for not being able to hear what anyone else was saying… was to do all the talking himself.

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      2. KateM*

        I have noticed that a good many older people around here don’t use canes anymore but instead Nordic Walking poles. Physically, I can imagine these are even more help than using a cane as there are two of these and also in case of iced pavement, you can dig in the sharp ends (usually protected). But psychologically speaking – this changes one from being an old barely shuffling along person to being a sporty person! Of course maybe your mother needs a more substantial walking aid.

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        1. Christmas Carol*

          This reminds me of my late mother. After recovering from a broken hip, she really should have used a cane, but often refused because she didn’t want to look “old” But she always kept a garden hoe next to the back door, and used that for support while she worked in her yard, because she figured the neighbors wouldn’t think she needed a cane, she was just gardening.

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        2. Elizabeth West*

          This would bug me because I like to have one hand free.

          I felt weird about using a cane when I was dealing with a torn meniscus. I kinda thought it would make me look like an old lady. But it helped me walk before and after my surgery, and I was actually pretty grateful for it. (Heh, it also got me the good seat on the bus and I didn’t have to stand on the train.) I even bedazzled it with some stick-on rhinestones. :)

          In fact, I got new feet for it and kept it around just in case I rip another cartilage. If I ever have to use one permanently, I’ll likely spend some bucks on something that looks really cool.

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          1. KateM*

            Do you need to have a hand free while just walking down the street? You are not stuck to the poles – when you need a free hand, like opening a door, you can put them both in one hand. Actually I think it would be possible to open a door while holding a pole as well, only my experience is with skiing poles and from a much younger age.

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        3. Nightengale*

          They may be more help or less help. I can’t manage the upright grip. I had a doctor suggest I use hiking poles rather than a cane because I was in my 20s and he didn’t want me to “look disabled.” I was already disabled before I developed mobility problems (the same hand grip issue which is why I can’t actually use a hiking pole) and was very involved in disability advocacy work already. Not the best argument to use on me. . . but I have a friend who does great with hiking poles.

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      3. Ginger Baker*

        Very sidenote, and may make no difference at all, but what got my mom to use the cane (if she’s not willing to try at all [and therefore experience how much better she could walk with it!]) was to have an aid appointment that the form ahead of time asked if she “used a walking aid”. Answering yes helped her get financial aid and so she acquiesced to using the cane for the appointment…and then fell in love with how much easier it was to walk!

        What also helped (and might be more of a sell for women who are very stylish – my mom cared somewhat less and this wasn’t enough to get her over the hump) os an attractive cane. I got several for my mom from a store called Fashionable Canes (easily found online). There are some gorgeous options! And you can easily end up with quite a few to match different looks.

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      4. JMC*

        My mother was like this too. She couldn’t hear worth a damn and wouldn’t wear hearing aids. Had no teeth and wouldn’t wear dentures. Couldn’t walk very well but wouldn’t use any mobility aids. I’m amazed she wore her glasses.

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      5. Full of Woe*

        Maybe if you let her know that not addressing her hearing loss increases her risk of dementia, she’ll change her mind!

        https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/the-hidden-risks-of-hearing-loss

        Also, today’s hearing aids are much less noticable. The vet we used had a hearing aid and short hair and most of the time I would completely forget it was there. I only knew it was there in the first place because she mentioned it one day.

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        1. Zombeyonce*

          We keep trying to convince my dad to wear his hearing aids regularly with data like this, but he is so resistant. As a result, he gets more and more isolated (also terrible for his health!) because he can’t hear what anyone is saying when we all get together, and my poor mother has to repeat everything she says when they’re at home.

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    8. Visually Impaired Guy*

      My disability is visual, not hearing, yet it allows me to understand how these things can affect hiring.

      The illogical rationale that it’s better to seem like an idiot (i.e. answer the questions incorrectly) than someone who needs an accommodation (quieter location or more ideally hearing aids) is going to hurt him quite a bit. Employers aren’t going to want someone who cares more about his ego than doing a good job. It feels harsh to say this, yet the reality is that I can’t hide my disability so I’m clear and factual about it, and employers are often quite happy to know how little they have to do to accommodate me (larger monitor, bit of software). If I was stumbling around and answering their questions wrong then I don’t know if I’d want to an interview because it’ll make me undesirable in future too, because the employer will assume it’s something that won’t resolve.

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      1. Hearing advocate*

        Exactly this. You don’t have the luxury of hiding your disability – people with hearing impairments often think they do a good job of hiding it, but often instead just come across as an idiot or rude. It’s not as invisible as people might think it is. Asking for accommodation makes you look like you’re willing to own an issue, not just ignore it or be embarrassed by it. If you’re going to look like an idiot if you don’t ask, there’s no shame in asking because you’re not going to get hired in the first place.

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    9. lunchtime caller*

      Exactly this, I work with someone in their early 30s who is upfront about being hard of hearing and needing certain accommodations (for instance, preferring video calls so she can see people’s lips move), and no one ever thinks twice about it. Meanwhile, someone replying with weird off base answers and constantly going “what was that?? Huh?? What?? Speak up!” Will seem so ancient they have one foot in the grave.

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      1. and then it was Petyr!*

        This is a really good point. If you are already worried (and rightly so!) about ageism, being seen as “feeble” probably won’t help.

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    10. Hearing advocate*

      There are so many options for hard of hearing people these days, both in terms of technology and accommodations. Alison’s suggestions are great, but he really does need to look further into the idea of admitting that he needs help. Hearing aids with bluetooth are phenomenal for cell phone calls. There’s also plenty of captioning options for cellphones, including AI or real people (look into an app called InnoCaption). Zoom/Teams/Hangout etc, all have auto caption options, which while they aren’t always the best (and will need to be enabled by the company hosting the meetings) they provide much needed context.

      However, I’d really go back to what Whale whale whale said – if they aren’t willing to/will judge you for asking for accommodations for the interview, how is it going to work when you actually work for them? Generally hearing loss gets worse over time, so what you need now is likely just a pre-cursor to what will be needed in the future. Get started with the technology and creating a comfort level of asking for the needed help (if it is even still needed once the technology has been added!)

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    11. iglwif*

      Yes!! Hearing aids are amazingly tiny these days and seem to be much more effective than they used to be. And I know several people who connect theirs to Bluetooth and hear much better on the phone.

      I don’t have significant hearing loss, but I do have some kind of auditory processing issue, and I cringed in sympathy with LW4’s husband trying to answer questions he couldn’t process. It’s an awful feeling.

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    12. That Paralegal*

      I’m in my 50s and I think it’s more of an ageism issue than anything. The popular perception is that only old people are hard-of-hearing. And of course, yes, do I want to work with someone who is ageist or able-ist? Not really, but also, I like to have a roof over my head. Everybody’s calculus on this is different. In my experience, ageism is most of the time an implicit bias that people aren’t entirely aware of having. You can’t even call people out on it because they’ll deny it to the heavens.

      My hearing tests as normal but I have developed auditory processing issues in the last 5 or so years. I need to be facing the person speaking, I use headphones at work, and I always use speaker phone (unless I’m in public). It sounds like this may be part of the issue with LW4’s husband, although he’ll never know unless he goes to the dang doctor and finds out.

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  9. Artemesia*

    Someone who has hearing issues but refuses to get hearing aids is also going to have trouble performing at work. Someone in the job interview process who doesn’t have the headphones with him seems to be shooting himself in the food. If he knows he is not in a good place to talk and it is not the scheduled interview time, maybe don’t pick up. Normally that is terrible advice but since he has tanked several job opportunities because he can’t do the phone interview it is a better choice than the one he is making now. Hearing aids acquisition is not a quick process, but he really needs to get this under control.

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    1. Lisa*

      I would rephrase this to “Someone who has hearing issues but refuses to take steps to deal with the issues is also going to have trouble performing at work.” Right now what he’s doing isn’t working, and either he can change his approach (see an audiologist, carry headphones or earbuds, don’t answer the phone if he’s not in a state where he can hear, etc) or he can keep failing the same way.

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      1. KateM*

        Yes, and if a hiring manager knew this, they could easily wonder if refusing to take steps to deal with issues is going to be a problem with work issues as well.

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      2. Tantallum99*

        Yes agree with this. The interview is just the first stage and there are easy enough adjustments to be made; namely screen calls and only pick up if he has headphones or in car. But if he is constantly mishearing you and others *and won’t admit he has a hearing issue and get evaluated and treated*, he won’t last long in a job (without accommodations that he won’t be able to her until he sees a doctor).

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    2. Looper*

      I also am a little perplexed as to what he thinks is going to happen if he does get hired. Never have phone call again? Never have to listen to anyone tell him anything verbally? I feel there is more stigma attached to an older worker straight up not hearing (or appearing not to understand what’s being asked) vs someone wearing a hearing aid or other assistive device.

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        1. Jenesis*

          I’d be less concerned about the phone (let’s face it, a lot of phone connections suck) and more concerned that his hearing is so bad that he can’t hear his spouse speaking to him unless they’re facing in each other’s direction and he can presumably see their lips moving to signal him that he should be paying attention.

          I suppose he can get a remote job where he only has to talk to people over Zoom?

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          1. Different Anon*

            Hearing loss can be a challenge even with Zoom or Teams, though. Cameras-off means you won’t always have the opportunity to read lips, and live transcription often isn’t accurate enough to rely on.

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            1. geek5508*

              I can vouch that Zoom/Teams can be problematic for those with hearing loss. I actually had to request a formal ADA accommodation before they decided to enable Close Captioning by default on those platforms at work

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              1. iglwif*

                Wow that’s RIDICULOUS.

                I was a Zoom admin at a former job. This is literally one click to enable, and then every user can turn captions on and off as desired.

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                1. Eldritch Office Worker*

                  Yes let’s listen to the zoom admin over the actual people who need the service and tell you that this function is not accurate or reliable enough to be helpful in a professional capacity.

                2. iglwif*

                  @ Eldritch Office Worker: I am fully aware that the closed captioning isn’t always accurate, doesn’t handle accents well, and so on.

                  I was responding to geek5508’s comment that they had to invoke the ADA just to get the captioning turned on.

                  Will Zoom’s auto-captions solve all communications issues for Deaf or HOH users? Of course not. But they do help, turning them on is trivially easy, and it’s ridiculous that geek5508 had to do more than ask.

            2. Also-ADHD*

              Eh, I wouldn’t worry about not being accommodated in a job as much as the discrimination if they find out in an interview. To be honest, unless the job has very specific requirements or the ADA actually gets gutted, providing for hearing impaired employees is still a legal requirement in the U.S. (and most other countries that the LW would be from have similar or more stringent requirements). It’s pretty hard to justify not giving accommodations to someone for hearing loss.

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      2. Emmy Noether*

        You’re thinking too logically. There can be a lot of straight-up denial around loss of faculties, and it sounds like that’s where he’s at. He’s probably avoiding thinking of the future at all, or vaguely believing it’s temporary.

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        1. KateM*

          OP can ask him this question, though, and urge to plan ahead. Maybe he will think that having hearing aids is not so bad after all.

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        2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          Good point. What worked for me with my dad, when his hearing loss got bad enough, was to just ask him “So when are you going to get your hearing checked?” Not a suggestion, not a “I’ve been noticing” comment, just “Of course this is something you’re aware of and on top of”. He laughed and told me he would schedule something when they returned home from visiting us.

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          1. Venus*

            I told my mother to go get hers checked so that she would have a baseline later if she felt that her hearing was getting really bad. That “prove to me that your hearing is okay” rationale worked, and the testing place ended up giving her cheap things initially for specific situations that helped her quite a bit. Later, when her hearing got worse, she was already open to real hearing aids and the change was less worrisome.

            I had originally intended for her to get tested solely as a way to confirm that her hearing was okay, and in the end the effect was better than I could have hoped.

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    3. Person from the Resume*

      Maybe the LW can try … you need to not pick up/ask for a minute/ask to call them back because you have actually blown interviews BECAUSE you were unable to hear.

      Her husband’s concerns are not inaccurate but since he’s blowing interviews, pretending it’s fine/denial is NOT working for him.

      Better to be the guys that was hard to reach or schedule, than the guy who’s answers made no sense.

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      1. Spooz*

        Yep. My mother’s life was transformed when she finally got hearing aids, after fifteen years of shouting at me because she couldn’t hear me then shouting at me because I was being rude by shouting at her. So so many minor difficulties just vanished.

        She couldn’t call her bank for example, because everyone in the call centre either had a foreign accent or a regional accent and she couldn’t understand them. My father had to make every phone call for her. Hearing aids? Now she can understand them all.

        She couldn’t give directions in taxis (pre satnav, pre uber) because of the screen between you and the driver, so she ended up being charged extra because they were driving around the long way by accident or she would just be dropped off somewhere “close enough”. Hearing aids? Now no problem.

        There were sounds she didn’t even realise existed in her environment. LW’s husband probably doesn’t even realise how much there is he can’t hear… because he can’t hear it!.

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        1. Sandstorm*

          shouting at me because she couldn’t hear me then shouting at me because I was being rude by shouting at her

          Too true. I’m currently going through this with my mother — I’m a former theater kid, trust me that I know how to project, but I physically *cannot* make enough nosie for my mother to hear me, and then I get in trouble for “screaming” at her.

          (I watch their TV at volume 6-8; my dad watches their TV at volume 13-15; my mom watches their TV at volume 22-28. It’s painful. Anyone reading this, if the people around you ever start suggesting seeing an audiologist, pleaes please please see an audiologist.)

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          1. That Paralegal*

            OMG y’all my mom does this too. “I can’t hear you, what?”…. “Stop shouting at me!”…. it’s exhausting. The worst part is she DOES have hearing aids but only wears them randomly, and almost never at home. Because god forbid she have to listen to anything her family has to say.

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            1. MigraineMonth*

              My mom has hearing aids, but she still often needs me to speak up/face her in order for her to hear. Because of the aids, she’s also very sensitive to loud noises. I, unfortunately, have pretty variable volume when I’m talking.

              Spending time with my parents feels like a comedy sketch:

              Me: “Dad, could you pass me the–”
              Mom: “Honey, I can’t hear you when you aren’t looking at me.”
              Me: “I was just asking Dad to pass the bread.”
              Mom: “I wish you’d speak up a bit when you two are talking so I don’t miss anything.”
              Me: “Okay, I’ll try. Hey, Dad, have you seen the new movie with–”
              Mom: “Not so loud, honey. I’m right here.”
              Me: “…” *sighs*

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          2. That Paralegal*

            OMG y’all my mom does this too. “I can’t hear you, what?”…. “Stop shouting at me!”…. it’s exhausting. The worst part is she DOES have hearing aids but only wears them randomly, and almost never at home. Because god forbid she have to listen to anything her family has to say.

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          3. londonedit*

            Yep. My dad *does* have hearing aids, but he really needs to go back and see about getting better ones, or getting the ones he has adjusted, or something, because I’m sure they could be helping him more than they actually are. But he won’t do it, because he says he already spent too much money on the ones he currently has, he isn’t going to spend a load more, and there’s ‘no point’. So instead he doesn’t hear things half the time, and if you’re trying to explain something he either won’t hear, so he’ll get annoyed, or if you raise your voice so he *can* hear then he assumes you’re shouting at him and gets annoyed at that. I can’t physically raise my voice to a level where he can hear it without it coming across as shouting, and then I get ‘Oh all RIGHT, stop shouting at me, I’m not stupid’. It’s frustrating, for one thing, but also it makes me very sad that his life could be made easier but he won’t do it for the sake of a few hundred pounds (and the issue isn’t that he can’t afford it, either – he just thinks it would be a waste of money).

            Reply ↓
            1. Butterfly Counter*

              This sounds exactly like every conversation I’ve had with my 99-year-old grandma about her hearing for the last 20 years. Especially about the money that she can well afford. She’s been refusing to spend any money on anything that would make her quality of life better (washer/dryer, cleaning service, someone to drive her to her doctors and to church, new teeth, physical therapy, etc.) because she always thinks she’ll “be dead soon.” The problem is, she’s thought this since 2003.

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          4. CommanderBanana*

            And shouting is physically exhausting and uncomfortable! My voice does not carry, even at higher volumes, and I don’t want to participate in conversations that are just me getting told to repeat myself over and over. I don’t mumble, I speak clearly, and I don’t want to lose my voice by having to shout at someone.

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          5. Spooz*

            Yep. Hearing aids are not magic – she still sometimes struggles with comprehension in noisy environments or large group conversations. But my goodness, I have SO much more patience for dealing with it all now that it’s not absolutely every word anyone ever speaks, now that I know she’s trying to help herself, and now that I’m not getting shouted at all the time.

            Honestly, I feel like the biggest effects of hearing loss (when people are in denial and being nasty about it) are felt by the people around the one with hearing loss. Not even TRYING hearing aids can be really profoundly selfish and unpleasant if your preferred “solution” is shouting at people all the time and derailing nearby conversations that you’re not even in by insisting everyone repeat themselves for your benefit.

            I don’t mean to say that everyone with hearing loss is an awful person. I’ve just been burned hard by fifteen years of all that crap as a child because she was too vain to get her hearing tested. And it’s a scenario I see over and over again where the person with hearing loss makes everyone else suffer for a fixable/at-least-improvable problem.

            I am having hearing comprehension issues at the moment because I have a newborn and when he’s crying and I’m so tired and all the children talk at once I just cannot understand anything. But you know what? I tell them to shout at me one at a time and then THANK THEM for shouting at me so I can hear them.

            Reply ↓
            1. Spooz*

              My grandmother, on the other hand, had profound hearing loss by her 90s but was always nice about it. Thanked me for shouting when I had to repeat myself. Had me write things down for her if we really couldn’t make her hear. Laughed at her own bizarre mishearings of things.

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    4. happybat*

      I’m someone with hearing issues who failed at hearing aids – there is a massive stigma which makes them distressing to wear, and some people also have quirks of anatomy that can make them intensely uncomfortable (I quit mine when they kept making me bleed). It is possible to learn strategies to cope with hearing loss in many situations, and according to my performance reports I do my job quite well – despite my lack of hearing aids. Clearly this chap needs more help than he is getting, but not wearing hearing aids doesn’t equate to work failure in every circumstance.

      Reply ↓
      1. Chirpy*

        I know a woman who was such a good lipreader that it took me several years to realize she was deaf. She used a telephone text service to transcribe her phone calls before cellphones with texting ability were common. (She also now has a cochlear implant, but from what I understand, her hearing loss was severe enough that hearing aids were pretty useless.)

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      2. Lolllee*

        Thank you for your comment. I should have included in my letter that my husband can’t wear earbuds. Even ear plugs cause him discomfort. His headphones are full over the ear type so not so easy to carry around but its a good suggestion to invest in another set to have at home. Since he can’t wear earbuds without pain, he thinks hearing aids will be the same. I hope if he gets fitted he might find some that work for him but small hearing aids that might work better for him aren’t covered by our insurance and they are very expensive so we might not be able to afford them. He performs well at work because he has the large over ear headphones for virtual meetings and phone calls. All other calls on his cell phone he usually takes in his car with the blue tooth speakers outside work hours or if he’s at work he tells people he’ll call them back from his desk. I’ve called him at work and he hears me fine on that set up. He’s had hearing loss since he was younger (too much very loud heavy metal music and construction work as a teenager) but it’s only been since he’s gotten into his 50s that people seem to judge him for it.

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        1. Reader*

          Hearing impaired here, early hearing loss. Got my first hearing aids at an audiologist, and paid a fortune. Second pair from Costco, where the assistance and communication were a lot better, and the hearing aids two-thirds cheaper. Also, Costco is great about supporting the aids bought there, and regular testing is free.

          Mine have tiny speakers in the ear, so much less irritating than ear buds or ear plugs. They´re also practically invisible, and they have blue tooth which makes some kinds of hearing a lot more clear.

          I was stunned at what I was missing before I got the aids. They were life-changing, and not just for professional reasons.

          Father-in-law needs has needed hearing aids, bought some on the internet, and refused to wear them long enough to get used to them which, in my experience, takes a few days. There is a slight learning curve. Buying them online meant he had no support.

          Now, in addition to the initial hearing problems, FIL has become increasingly isolated, and unaware of what he´s not hearing. He´s basically decided that he´d rather opt out of much of life than look like an old person with practically invisible hearing aids.

          There´s plenty of evidence that unsupported hearing loss also makes the brain less capable of recognizing certain sounds, and may increase an inclination toward dementia. An ego that can´t support a health aid can actually lead to making health/aging conditions worse.

          This is obviously a self-defeating approach to life. Check out Costco, and see if there isn´t a better path for your husband.

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        2. BlueSwimmer*

          I was coming into the comments to suggest saying that rocking too hard when he was young or doing construction is why he has hearing issues, even if it is a fib, because it seems more bad-ass, and less of an aging issue.

          So, hear is my commercial for hearing aids as someone who resisted them in my 30s but then embraced them:

          I lost about half my hearing due to a scuba diving accident in my 30s and also initially resisted hearing aids until I gave one too many really, monumentally embarrassing off-topic answers to questions I misheard. Once I finally got hearing aids, they gave me back my career, my personality, and my dignity. (Seriously, I can’t even imagine how many “non-versations” I had before I got my HAs where people didn’t call me out on being completely off topic. It makes me blush to think about it.)

          Behind-the-ear hearing aids (with the tech behind the ear and a tiny part in your ear that delivers the sound) are so unnoticeable many people I work with daily don’t realize I wear them, and I wear my hair pulled up all the time AND I rock a bright blue pair of HAs sometimes rather than my sedate brown pair that matches my hair.

          There are different tips that go inside your ear so that anyone can find a comfortable fit. Unlike earbuds, these are either tiny soft silicone tips smaller than a pencil eraser, or custom fitted/molded to your ear so they aren’t uncomfortable. I have one weirdly narrow ear canal on one side, and I was able to find a comfortable solution and can’t even feel them now. (I have never been able to wear earbuds either.)

          If you are in the US, Costco has affordable aids that are quite good. Going to an audiologist for your aids costs more but you get more service and help with adjustments. You can stream calls and music from your phone to your aids, and change the program based on where you are (like a restaurant program that picks up more sound from your table than behind you so you can converse in loud restaurants.)

          I’ve changed jobs twice since I got hearing aids and haven’t disclosed any hearing issues during the interview process because I haven’t needed to. They have allowed me to continue working and socializing. I don’t need any accommodations at work.

          There is also a lot of research on how hearing loss can lead to cognitive decline, depression, loneliness, and increased risk of dementia as we age. My elderly mom refuses to get them even though she is having trouble conversing. I think the stigma is still strong among older people who think of hearing aids as big beige plastic things in your ears, but the high school students I teach just think mine are cool. One student called them my “stealth earbuds” and wanted to know how much they cost. So basically, getting hearing aids will actually make you seem hipper and younger!

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        4. Global Cat Herder*

          I have discomfort with things in my ears. My hearing aids are a very small behind-the-ear piece that’s only slightly bigger than a Lima bean, a clear wire down into my ear, and an interchangeable tip that goes in my ear.

          The first tips I didn’t like. My audiologist broke out the Big Box Of Tips and there were a couple dozen to choose from. We found some very small tips that worked well for me.

          It’s not comparable with EarPods or ear plugs at all, so he should give it a try.

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    5. Falling Diphthong*

      I think he’s applying a can-do attitude in the wrong way–answering the call even if he isn’t ready to talk, which creates a bad impression. Getting hearing aids, or making sure the headphones are always at hand, would be a much better application of the can-do energy.

      Reply ↓
    6. PhyllisB*

      I can’t agree with more. I just got hearing aids in November. It’s not totally without issues because in noisy areas it amplifies the noise, so I have to occasionally adjust my volume, but for the most part they have been a real help. And you are right about how discreet they are. Mine hook on my ears but no one realizes they’re there unless they are really looking for them.

      Reply ↓
      1. BlueSwimmer*

        PhyllisB-

        Ask your HA provider about a speech in noise or noise dampening program that you can toggle to- they really help just hearing the people you are with in noisy situations. I also have a program that dampens the car noise when I’m driving.

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  10. Chris*

    LW4: Apple’s AirPods Pro 2 now have quite a few features for those who are hard of hearing (they’re actually certified as over the counter hearing aids). They’re easier to slip in a pocket and always have with you than full size headphones. Your husband also might not feel like they’ve got as much of a stigma attached as dedicated hearing aids.

    Reply ↓
    1. Ariaflame*

      I’ve been using bone induction headsets for a while, (aftershokz is the one I use). They sit on your cheekbone and conduct the sound directly without relying on eardrums, which has the added benefit (sometimes) of not blocking ambient sound out. So I can hear cars coming etc. They’re reasonably unobtrusive so you don’t have to just put them on to listen to things. I don’t have hearing issues that I know of.

      Reply ↓
      1. BatManDan*

        I use that brand. Believe they are just called Shokz, not “After Shokz” (at least, that’s what is says on the side of the three pairs I own). Love them. Many great features, and husband can keep them on all day so it doesn’t matter when the calls come in.

        Reply ↓
        1. Over Analyst*

          They did a rebrand a few years ago. I bought “AfterShokz” 3-4 years ago and shortly after my friend bought “Shokz.” Same company, same general headphones.

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      2. ThatGirl*

        The comment is about earbuds/headsets you can use as hearing aids; it’s great that you love Shokz but that’s not really relevant, since they’re not usable as hearing aids.

        Reply ↓
        1. blupuck*

          Shokz can be used as aids. I have significant hearing loss in my left ear due to pressure issues. I can ‘hear’ the sound produced by the shokz just fine even when I cannot hear much else. I don’t even need to crank the volume. They can be helpful depending on the cause/type of hearing loss.

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    2. Seal*

      It’s sad that wearing hearing aid is considered a stigma. There are so many easy and relatively inexpensive options for those with hearing loss these days, including invisible hearing aids that others can’t see. In some ways, it’s no different than wearing glasses to see clearly; why should wearing hearing aids so you can hear be any different?

      Reply ↓
      1. Emmy Noether*

        I think there are two things that make the perception different from glasses: glasses are quite common even for young people, so they’re not as strongly associated with aging (sight problems are caught and corrected for earlier). And, ironically, since hearing aids are less visible, it can feel (wrongly) like they’re very uncommon. People still picture the huge ones.

        To be fair, I do know people who refuse to wear glasses they very much need, too. I blame those movie makeover montages that purely consisted of removing glasses and straightening hair.

        Reply ↓
        1. Jenesis*

          Ugh, I hate those SO MUCH. “See how much cuter you’d be if you didn’t need assistive medical devices?”

          I mean yes, I’m a nerd and I wear glasses, but I don’t wear glasses just because I want to “look nerdy.” (I wear glasses because futzing around with contact lenses is a pain for my executive dysfunction. Which probably stems from the same neurodivergency that led to the nerdiness. But I digress.)

          Reply ↓
          1. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

            Those “makeovers” drive me crazy, too. And honestly, younger me was SO confused by them–I cannot see anything without glasses or contacts and haven’t been able to since elementary school, so it made absolutely no sense to me that someone would agree to just not wear them. If you’re wearing glasses, you NEED them! Frankly, same thing about hearing aids–I personally cannot get why someone would choose to not use something that helps them just because other people might have opinions about it.

            But I’ve also just never cared about what someone thinks of me using something I need in order to live my life, so…

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      2. allathian*

        Yeah, I’m lucky to be working in an environment where hearing aids are as normal as glasses and carry no stigma. My coworker’s been using hearing aids for almost as long as I’ve known him, and if anything, people think he’s lucky because when he’s had enough of the ambient noise at the office, he can switch off his hearing aids and not hear most of it! My current manager has a cochlear implant and nobody would know if she didn’t talk about it so freely. She got it after she’d been working for us for a while and she says that it’s been a gamechanger.

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      4. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        Glad to see someone else mentioning the glasses analogy, which is spot on – in a rational or just world they’d both go without comment.

        Reply ↓
        1. Ginger Baker*

          Im going to point out here that for a relatively long tine, glasses were *not* something that would “go without comment” and people did avoid wearing them! I’m not sure exactly what made the difference (sheer volume of glasses wearers? Celebrity adoption? Better marketing? Better fashion choices? Technology once the lenses could be made thinner?) but we hit a tipping point and now they are not a big deal and people even sometimes wear them just for fashion or have multiple (prescription) pairs for different looks. But that was not always the case! And with luck, we are hitting that tipping point now with hearing aids.

          Reply ↓
          1. bamcheeks*

            I think it was volume of glasses wearers, but the reason there was such volume was because a) more people working on screens / with text where they needed detailed eyesight more than anything else, b) better technology meaning that even minor issues could be improved. I wonder whether hearing tech will just gradually cross the line from “specific assistive devices” and merge into general phones/wearables/apps?

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          2. londonedit*

            Yeah, I agree – in the UK we used to have horrible plastic ‘NHS specs’ which were the cheap option for glasses, and there was a massive stigma around wearing those and glasses in general, especially for children and teenagers. Of course glasses are much nicer now, and lens thinning technology has come on so much, and glasses are now quite fashionable. But it wasn’t always the case.

            However I do see the point of the glasses analogy – it’s one I keep trying to use with my dad. He has hearing aids but really needs better ones, but he keeps going on about how expensive they are and how it’s a waste of money when he can just make do with the ones he has. To which I say yes, and I could also just make do with basic contact lenses that don’t correct my astigmatism, or with a pair of glasses that’s five years out of date. But instead I spend £50 a month on toric lenses, and I make sure my glasses prescription is up to date, even though those things are expensive, because to me it’s more important to be able to see as clearly as I possibly can.

            Reply ↓
      5. iglwif*

        I’m old enough to remember when wearing glasses was also stigmatized. Now they’re practically a fashion accessory! I am optimistic that we can get there with other types of accessibility aids :)

        Reply ↓
      2. Global Cat Herder*

        It’s just the regular AirPods Pro 2 at $249

        The software walks you through a hearing test, and the resulting audiogram was the same as the one from my audiologist. They’re very good even compared to my prescription hearing aids – except the battery only lasts about 6 hours.

        Reply ↓
  11. Jenesis*

    LW3- I’m not a gun person, but I have some secondhand advice, being married to a gun person in a quite anti-gun state. He doesn’t bring it up on his own but word has generally gotten around who the gun people at his workplace are and he’s had some coworkers come to him for gun-buying advice. (He points his gun-interested acquaintances to a local professional trainer who specializes in teaching courses to demographics outside of young white men.)

    My suggestion would be to use Alison’s script (over lunch or water-cooler talk in relative private, not through outside channels unless you already talk about non-work stuff in those channels), explain that you could use a helping hand to walk you through the process, and see if you can get a feel for their opinion of the “good character” requirement. There’s a difference between a person who happens to own a gun and a Gun Person who makes their shooting a part of their personality, and the good news for your specific purposes is that Gun People, generally:

    1) want more people to be comfortable owning, handling, and talking about guns
    2) especially want more of those people to be women
    3) are likely opposed to gun control on principle (whether it comes from left-leaning or right-leaning politics) and therefore willing to write you a reference just because they oppose the strictness of the law.

    Reply ↓
    1. DataGirl*

      As a person who was very anti-gun most of my life, the last 8 years have had me starting to change my opinion, and now I’m at the point of obtaining my CPL (in a pretty restrictive state). So I understand what you are going through LW3. It is scary, and you don’t always know who you can talk to safely. I recommend finding a local or national organization that you would feel comfortable with, some left leaning ones are Pink Pistols and the Socialist Riffle Association, I’m sure there are more. It’s a good way to get questions answered and meet people who are like-minded. You may be able to find recommendations that way as well.

      I’d definitely bring up with those coworkers that you are looking into the process and ask them if they have any tips, I bet they will be happy to discuss it and recommendations will come up organically, but if not then you won’t have crossed any lines.

      And in response to your points Jenesis, I agree with all of them. The cop who taught my CPL class that said for every man who carries a gun, he protects one person, himself. Every woman who carries protects and average of seven women/girls, because
      1) she is more likely to be protecting children or other people
      2) the more often bad guys encounter a woman who carries, the more cautious they’ll be when approaching women in general

      I have no citations for this and I’m sure someone will tear it apart in a reply, but I do think there is some validity at least to the idea that women are more likely to be protecting children.

      Reply ↓
      1. Miss Fire*

        The point about who men/women are protecting is moot, because it’s really describing who they think they’ll be protecting. In reality, both parties are far, far, far more likely to harm a loved one or themselves vs. some kind of burglar.

        Reply ↓
        1. +1 to Miss Fire*

          As someone whose family hunts and owns guns and lives in a very gun-friendly state, this is completely true. I’ve been involved in gun violence prevention and have had police officers who have gone through dozens of hours of highly specialized training testify that they still had too much adrenaline rushing through their system to successfully use their gun in a threatening situation – why would you be any different?

          OP, I know you didn’t ask, but get a dog, get an alarm system, get some mace. Think through what it will mean to be trying to get your firearm out of its safe (which of course, you’ll want to store it in so if you get burgled it doesn’t end up in the hands of criminals), do you really think you’ll be able to get it out and protect yourself if someone breaks in? And if you’re planning to concealed carry, are you really going to be comfortable carrying that around everywhere you go?

          Reply ↓
          1. DataGirl*

            People are not just worried about burglars at this point. Those of us who are ‘enemies of the state’ per the Felon in charge are worried about gangs of incel/ magats executing targeted attacks against us. There will be a lot of political violence in the future, and the left needs to be able to protect itself. Project 2025 wouldn’t be planning to limit gun ownership to registered Republicans only if they weren’t afraid of liberals with guns resisting them.

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      2. Come on*

        The cop who told you that doesn’t have citations for that because it is false. Adding a gun to your home is pretty much the most dangerous thing you can do for kids in that home, and increases risk of homicide and suicide for anyone living there. Secure storage reduces but does not eliminate these risks. I don’t care that much about adults legally purchasing guns (my family members hunt) but the idea that gun ownership confers any real protection to you is laughable.

        https://www.healthychildren.org/English/safety-prevention/at-home/Pages/Handguns-in-the-Home.aspx

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    2. RIP Pillowfort*

      My advice to OP was going to be that they need to go to a professional trainer before taking any further steps. I live in a very pro-gun state and even here, responsible people really do advise you get training from a professional for self-defense before even considering owning any weapon.

      OP is reacting out of concern for their well being. I get that. I’ve done the same and gone through courses for self-defense more than once. Having training makes a big difference in identifying what protection you actually need versus what you think you need. And they would have a lot more relevant information for OP than a co-worker.

      Reply ↓
      1. she was a small town girl*

        There is a chance OP can’t go to a trainer/learn to use a gun without getting the necessary permits. I’m not familiar with the particular laws/regulations OP lists so I don’t know if this is the case but I would think naturally that would be the first step, which makes me think maybe it’s not possible for her.

        Reply ↓
        1. Ann*

          If there’s a range in reasonable distance, she could go ask there. Not to shoot or anything without a license, of course, but the people at the range will definitely know their stuff and should be able to offer advice and such.

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    3. Sunshine*

      I’m in a similar situation. I’d also suggest asking about that kind of trainer, or a local club that offers training to people interested in getting guns. That training would be a good idea anyway, and if you get involved with a local group that will build your network of connections who could vouch for you.

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    4. Specialist*

      I live in a gun friendly state. I had a break in. The son of some friends was very concerned and took me to a gun range. I developed a joy for shooting and go regularly on my own. I’ve learned a lot through this journey. You should shoot the gun before you buy it. Find an appropriate range with rentals. They should also have beginner classes. Guns are actually very personal. To speak woman to woman, guns can be like tampons–the brand really matters. People will tell you that X is the best, but if it isn’t comfortable for you it isn’t the best. Gun ranges are usually very friendly and respectful places. You should be aware that they are populated mostly by men, who sometimes want to show off in front of cute women. We older women don’t have this problem. Cutesy stuff has no business in the gun range, so don’t do it. Ammunition is expensive. You need to practice and will go through a lot of ammunition. Pick something you can afford. While I have holsters for all but one of my handguns, my carry gun is a 9mm and the smallest handgun I own. I personally find .22’s disappointing. (The gun range guys think it is great fun to put me next to the most macho men.) Smaller handguns have more kick. Revolvers don’t throw hot brass out the back but pistols do. Keep this in mind when choosing what shirt you wear to the range. If you mean to concealed carry, you will have to think a lot about what you wear. Carrying means that you avoid fights as much as possible–more so than not carrying. You may want to look at bear sprays as well. One shot will likely not drop your attacker–expect that they can continue to come at you. If you intend to carry, you should be prepared to use your gun. If you aren’t prepared to use your gun, you shouldn’t carry.

      Reply ↓
      1. Jenesis*

        Also, if you don’t know your eye dominance, get it checked out ASAP. Guns, like most tools, are built with the lowest common denominator in mind and a lot of features are unfriendly (or more expensive) for left-aligned people in non-obvious ways. In general, if you are in any way differently abled from the expected “norm” (that being a young, right-aligned cismale), a good trainer will be able to recommend modifications or assistive devices to help you compensate for that.

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  12. Seal*

    #2 – Another possibility is that they contacted an off-list reference who wasn’t as enthusiastic about your work as your other references. As a candidate, sometime I’ve been told they’re going to do so and sometimes not; a few times the person they contacted reached out to me to ask for a copy of my CV. Or it could be that someone on the search committee knows someone you work with or worked with and reached out to them and that person didn’t give you a good reference. Regardless, unless the off-list references painted a wildly different picture of you than your provided references did, it seems unlikely that would be enough to rescind an offer. As someone who’s served on more than my share of search committees, the only off-list reference truly tanked a candidate’s chances was the one that told us a candidate lied about their work history and put the us in contact with others who could verify it.

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    1. AlsoADHD*

      But who contacts an off list reference in a post offer situation? I feel like those reach outs are usually before an offer.

      I’m surprised when anyone contacts the listed reference. Most post offer is just an employment check (did she work here? Right dates?). It seems weird, and it makes me think the offer was pulled for another reason.

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      1. Sneaky Squirrel*

        In an application, usually they ask you to list supervisors and also references. I wonder if they got a hold of a former supervisor or someone else from a former company and are referring to that as a reference.

        Reply ↓
    2. Willa C.*

      I feel like off-list references should not count as much (or at all). Sometimes, there are very good reasons why someone is not listed as a reference. For example, I had a manager during my internship who was anti-reference and had all sorts of rules/criteria you had to meet before she would give you a reference (but, of course, she would not tell you want these rules were). So, naturally, I did not list her as a reference, only for the company to reach out to her anyway. Surprise, surprise, she refused to provide a reference, and I almost lost the offer despite all other references being solid.

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      1. Seal*

        I don’t know that you can or should completely discount off-list references, but I do think you should consider the source when you get them. I’ve reached out discreetly to trusted people in my network who’ve worked with a candidate to get their take and vice versa. I’ve also had a few instances where an off-list reference turned out to be disgruntled employee or colleague who gleefully viewed it as an opportunity for revenge. My bigger concern is if I see a pattern in what the references say or if the candidate’s conduct and attitude during the interview is radically different that their application materials and references say (like the candidate who was stellar on paper but showed up for the interview looking like they planned to go clubbing afterwards – in an industry where business casual is considered dressing down). So an off-list reference from a manager who trashes the candidate when the other reference are good is a red flag for me.

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  13. Smurfette*

    OP1, as a remote worker I’d be extremely frustrated with 15 minutes of socialising at the start of a call, especially if I had a lot of work to do. x10 if we weren’t getting to important agenda items. I’d also be irritated with the person who was supposed to be running the meeting.

    That said, I have less need for social interaction than most people, and I’m pretty senior (in work years), so my feedback might not be relevant to your situation.

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  14. Smurfette*

    For OP5 I’m guessing the exit procedures include things like handing in your laptop and access card?

    My only suggestion is to offer to work your last day, and come in for a couple of hours the next day to do that stuff. Depending on company policy, they may allow it.

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  15. Kella*

    OP4, it’s very common for folks who are losing an ability to continue to fake it in order to avoid social scrutiny. It’s understandable given how our culture handles disability and also, at some point it’s just not possible to continue faking ability without serious consequences to your wellbeing.

    I might try to explain it to your husband this way: If the interviewer called when he was in the bathroom, he couldn’t answer, right? If the interviewer called while he had a doctor’s appointment, he couldn’t answer. If his phone battery died and then the interviewer called, he couldn’t answer. Now he has a new circumstance to add to this list: If an interviewer calls and he does not have headphones or other necessary devices immediately at hand, he can’t answer. It’s just as non-negotiable as a doctor’s appointment or dead battery. Him answering and giving poor, inaccurate responses is actually doing *more* damage to his chances than simply deferring the call would be.

    He can make up an excuse to use so that he doesn’t have to divulge his hearing issue. Honestly, just “Yes! I can’t talk right at this moment. Can I call you back at X time?” should do it. It’s often just our self-consciousness about the reason that makes us feel like we need to justify it. But we really don’t.

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  16. cncx*

    Re LW4, I have a front facing job and was on a job search recently. I was extremely explicit about how I can’t answer the phone without an appointment over work hours (because I literally needed to clock out and find a room and a plausible excuse, which I had for scheduled calls) and the amount of recruiters thinking I could just hop on a call…during working hours…for a full phone screen…when I already had a job, was too, too high. I now screen out people I am wiling to work with based on whether they understand me Using My Words about availability. Also why would someone want me to disrespect my current employer by just doing whatever during working hours? Either decide to hire people who have jobs or not, but it can’t go both ways. And unemployed people have availability issues too. It is just rude. A call to schedule, sure…but a whole random phone screen? Wild

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    1. NoPhoneAccess*

      yes. I’ve worked in a lot of buildings with no cell service and also many with no private spaces to take calls. I once had a contract where the only way I could do a phone interview was by walking to a Burger King a block away and calling them once I was seated. It was loud and imperfect, but it was literally the only place I could be indoors (it was a brutally cold winter; standing outside for 30 minutes was not possible) while not in a completely open office.

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    2. DJ Abbott*

      Shortly after I got my current job, a temp agency had worked for called and wanted to talk about job openings. I said ok, email me the openings and I’ll take a look at them. No, that wouldn’t do. We had to talk live about it during business hours when I was at a new job. That was their new process.
      After going around about that a few times, I said never mind, I’m not interested.
      Get a clue, recruiters!

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    3. Slumber party fiasco*

      “was extremely explicit about how I can’t answer the phone without an appointment over work hours (because I literally needed to clock out and find a room and a plausible excuse, which I had for scheduled calls) and the amount of recruiters thinking I could just hop on a call…during working hours…for a full phone screen…when I already had a job, was too, too high.”

      Oh god are we twins? Between this and other bordering-on-sleazy behavior I’ve seen from job recruiters (both directly and on LinkedIn in general), I think that the entire field of job recruitment is maybe one big bag of scammers and phishers. That make used car salesmen look like antisocial, feral cats (in terms of “you’d never know they existed unless you looked really hard”).

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    4. mango chiffon*

      It’s so easy to schedule things these days! My company has always scheduled phone call screens even in pre-Zoom proliferation days. Heck, I had a skype call for some of these “phone” screen interviews!

      Reply ↓
  17. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    #2 I wonder if the prospective employer did what is often recommended here and checked with people outside the list of references you provided.
    Did you have a poor relationship with any past or current managers or coworkers? Did you have any habits that might have irritated someone, even something that wouldn’t be mentioned in your work environment e.g. frequently showing up a few minutes late, calling out a lot so that person had to take your shifts, being very chatty or not socialising at all?

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    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      People who give references need confidentiality, but it is a problem when an unsolicited reference has a grudge
      e.g. if the OP is a manager, then a mediocre employee might claim the OP is a “bully” for requiring that performance metrics be fulfilled,
      or a mediocre employee resenting the promotion or privileges that high-performing OP receives,
      or Spreadsheet Sandy with her 2 years records of employee arrival times.

      Reply ↓
      1. Emmy Noether*

        I feel like if I was the hiring manager and I got all glowing “official” references and a bad off-list one for a candidate, I would really try to get another off-list one or two to check if it’s just one person with a grudge.

        Unless it’s from a trusted source or specifically confirmed a doubt I had already.

        Reply ↓
        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          Yea, no. If you’re into the woo, it’s to save yourself the time and effort of evaluating the candidate yourself. Unless there’s only one candidate, any bad reference and 99% of the time, the hiring manager is just going to move on to the next candidate.

          LW2, it sucks, but think of it as at-will employment. An employer can decline to hire you for any reason, rational or not, or no reason at all–just as you can leave the job at any time, for any reason, or no reason at all.

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          1. Emmy Noether*

            I get that when it’s before the offer (there are often several very close good candidates, so it’s easiest to just go with someone else at the slightest doubt).

            But here, there’s already an offer! I’d think one would invest a bit of time to not rescind an offer, to protect one’s reputation. (which is really an argument to check references before the offer, but here we are). I’m kind of shocked at the idea of rescinding an offer, maybe if that’s more common in the industry it makes more sense.

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    2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      How does that even work, logistically? How do they find people you’ve worked with closely enough to provide useful information when you don’t give them the contact info?

      Reply ↓
      1. doreen*

        That’s going to depend a lot on the job – if you were one of a hundred people answering customer service calls for a cell phone provider , it might be impossible. If you were the department manager at a particular Target, it’s pretty easy to find out who the store manager is even if you only gave the assistant manager’s name as a reference.

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        1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          Those both are extremely specific situations, and the “find an unlisted reference” is being said as though it’s possible in general. I’m a high level IC at a very large company. Unless someone happens to personally know someone on my specific team, blindly reaching out to Random Person at my company is not going to be helpful.

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          1. doreen*

            Like I said, it depends on the job. Those are two particular jobs, one where it would be easy and one where it would be difficult. It’s going to depend on the size of the employer , how many people do a particular job , how much the reference checker knows about the employer and so on. You’re assuming it’s a matter of blinding reaching out to a Random Person, but it’s not necessarily going to be just “Jimmy do you know (applicant)? ” . It might be “Jimmy , do you know who is the manager for (location person works in) or (person’s job title). I worked for a state agency with 26K employees – for one position, there were only three people in my job title. Easy to find someone who worked closely with me. There was another title held by over 10K people- very different situation.

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      2. Antilles*

        There are plenty of ways, but the simplest would be that just noticing from your resume that you work at Alpha Corp. Oh, my friend Jimmy works there, I’ve been meaning to catch up with him anyways, maybe I’ll ask if he knows you.

        Reply ↓
        1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          I guess that works if Alpha Corp is small, but people are talking as though it’s a routine thing to do in all cases, and I can only see it working in a small company.

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          1. Lucifer*

            The way I first learned about a job I wound up having for several years was through “off book” reference checking. And it was a large university with a ton of departments (that didn’t always all collaborate) in a large metro area. So it can happen fairly easily.

            I was temping in the university’s medical school, helping out some physician-scientists and the business office. An unrelated org in the medical school, that isn’t an academic department, does a reference check somewhere on campus for a job opening. A few things don’t add up during the course of that reference check, so the hiring manager is then told to contact the business office that I was partially supporting, because the candidate had worked there too at some point. The business office and the hiring manager get to talking. A few more things don’t add up. The business office mentions that he has a temp who has been looking for permanent placement at the university but his team doesn’t have any permanent openings for the foreseeable future—does hiring manager want to send over the job description?

            That’s how I learned about the role, then applied, aced the interviews, and worked there for a few years before moving on elsewhere within the university.

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      3. Pescadero*

        As someone who went through an FBI background check to work at a nuclear power plant – they ask your references for references, then ask the references provided by your references for references… rinse, repeat.

        I gave them 3 references. They talked to about 30 people. Friends, friends parents, high school teachers…

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      4. Ann O'Nemity*

        Depends on the industry and community. Some can be incredibly close-knit. It’s not 6 degrees of separation here, it’s like 2! For example, if a local candidate applies for a mid-level position on my team (and has the necessary experience), I probably already know them, one of their previous bosses, and/or some of their previous coworkers.

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        1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

          This is what happened when I had an offer pulled. The hiring manager called my three references, then made the offer…then remembered a personal friend of hers was on the board of an org I’d worked at years ago and called him. As it happens, he had stolen some work of my work and gone off on me when I called him on it. (Had he asked, he could’ve had it and just mentioned my input. But he had to make it secretive and weird, and claim the work as ALL his.) Not surprisingly, he trashed me, and she pulled the offer. As it turned out I dodged a HUGE bullet, but at the time I was furious.

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      5. Ama*

        I think the fact that OP says the job is at a hospital is important. CVs are shared so widely at hospitals that it’s far more likely that a HR person or hiring committee would see a candidate worked at hospital A and remember Dr. Jones worked or did their fellowship at hospital A and ask them if they remember the candidate. I used to work at a nonprofit adjacent to the medical industry and it seemed to be pretty common at least when doctors were being hired to call nonlisted references.

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      6. Insert Clever Name Here*

        By asking the person listed in your references if they can give the name of others who worked with the applicant.

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  18. Starry Diadem*

    LW4 – like your husband, I’m hard of hearing. I do use hearing aids (I have for years) but my new ones are absolute life changers. They link directly into my mobile (cell) phone, and for the first time in years I can hear calls clearly, join them with the confidence that I’m not going to mishear and consequently make a fool of myself, and genuinely *enjoy* talking to friends and family on the phone. The difference in the quality of my life is incalcuable.

    Don’t give up on trying to get your husband to have a hearing test. It could change his life.

    Reply ↓
    1. Squishy*

      Yes!!! Research shows that untreated hearing loss can have grave long term neurological consequences – I hope he doesn’t wait to try and make things better, as much of an obstacle as it may feel.

      Reply ↓
    2. Kesnit*

      ^ All of this…

      I suspected for a year or so that I was losing my hearing. However, the courthouse where I worked was set up in a way that let me compensate for it. (Prosecution and defense both stood close to the bench for trials. There were microphones and speakers in the courtrooms.) When I got my current job, those helpful things went away and I was struggling. When a judge asked if I had hearing problems, I knew I could not hide it any more.

      The first time the hearing aids were put in my ears, it was like the world opened up. Plus, the hearing aids sync with Bluetooth to my phone. So not only can I hear phone calls, I can listen to audiobooks and podcasts directly to my ears without having to switch to headphones. (It’s nice when I am working on repetitive but necessary admin work to be able to just turn out background entertainment!)

      I was really hesitant to get tested because I assumed hearing aids would be huge and clunky. Mine aren’t, and there are some that are even smaller than what I wear.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hearing advocate*

        Yes! Getting hearing aids (or cochlear implant in my case) opens up the world again. You can actually enjoy things like audiobooks, podcasts, and music. Meetings and social events are no longer a struggle. I’m not going to lie and say it’s easy, it does take some work to get used to them, and it’s often not just a couple of days like it is with glasses. It requires some trial and error and working with an audiologist. Most hearing aids have a 30-60 day trial period too, so if those particular ones don’t work, you try a different brand/type. There’s so many options available in so many different size and price ranges. There’s absolutely no harm in at least looking into it!

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  19. Empress Ki*

    2# If by any chance you are in the UK, you may request a “subject access request” to the employer and be able to see all data they have about you, including references. I am not completely sure it works, but may be worth trying.

    Reply ↓
    1. Sarah*

      confidential references are one of the things that are exempt from disclosure under a SAR, but it should be made explicit whether it is the company’s policy to treat them confidentially or not.

      Reply ↓
  20. Brain sparkles*

    LW1 – What jumped out to me is that you’re a young woman, and that you’ve received strong pushback from some individuals when you’ve stopped ‘performing’ overt friendliness/niceness in the past.
    I don’t think this is a coincidence. Allison’s advice is great, but I also want to encourage you not to put too much weight on these negative reactions. Young women are expected to perform niceness in a way no-one else is, don’t fall into the trap of holding yourself to these unfair and frankly sexist stereotypes.
    Good luck!

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  21. Kate, short for Bob*

    LW4 point out to your husband that he’s *already* using hearing aids – the headphones and the Bluetooth (that I wonder if it means he’s audibly blasting his calls to anyone near the car).

    Getting properly prescribed and fitted aids saves him time, may save him face so he doesn’t sound like an idiot, and if he’s turning the headphones up too loud might save a bit of his remaining hearing too.

    And speaking as someone who’s been around a diagnosis-refuser before, proper hearing aids are *so* much more discreet than all the workarounds he’s using right now.

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  22. Spooz*

    #1: just put “chit chat” on the agenda, scheduled for five or ten minutes at the beginning. When you send out the agenda, include a note that you’re going to start being more strict about running to time on all agenda items and it would be really helpful if people could make an effort to move on when you say it’s time to move on.

    Then you don a big smile and say, loudly, “Right, everyone, we’d better move on, I’m afraid. Thanks so much for that, it’s so good to see you all again. So, our first item is…”

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  23. Wrench Turner*

    On references: In my 30 years of many, many jobs, I’ve only had 1 person tell me they were called one time. Nobody else. Rescinding an offer? This is so strange to me. I’d take it as a red flag from the company of deeper issues.

    Gun talk: While I’m loudly pro-gun, I keep that talk out of work unless I really know the room. I just don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable. Even then, I let them bring it up first. I would stick to talking about process and express your concerns about finding a reference. If they offer to be one, they do. Assuming I knew you well enough, I would.

    Reply ↓
    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      My references have been checked many times, and I have checked many references. What you’re describing isn’t a universal experience, or even a typical one depending on your role and industry.

      Reply ↓
  24. Spooz*

    LW4: Your husband needs to get a grip. He has a number of obvious solutions available to him:
    – Hearing aids
    – Headphones (keep them in his pocket all interview day)
    – Landline (only give that out as a contact number, don’t give the mobile)

    …and yet he’s ignoring all of them. I suspect you will find that whatever solution you suggest he doesn’t want to try it. Whether that’s because of hearing loss denial or because of subconscious interview self-sabotage I don’t know. I know how extremely frustrating it can be to live with someone with unacknowledged hearing loss and I am sorry you are having to deal with it. But its interesting that YOU are the one writing in for advice, not him.

    Reply ↓
    1. Account*

      Boy is this a good point. In my work, we have an expression: “Don’t work harder than the patient is.” If a patient misses a bunch of appointments, for example, follow up once or twice, but don’t chase them. Or if they can’t hear you— encourage them to see an audiologist, but beyond that, they’ll need to handle it!

      Reply ↓
    2. Grumpus*

      I had a similar reaction! Seems insane that the LW has to do all this thinking for him, surely that his work, as part of his job search?

      Reply ↓
  25. anon today*

    #1 :
    My company also is hybrid since Big C, and the various teams set up weekly meetings dedicated to socializing. Those were enthusiastically accepted.
    This greatly helped keeping purely work driven meetings on track!

    Reply ↓
    1. PX*

      Came to recommend this. Work for a fully remote company and many teams have dedicated social only meetings every couple of days/weeks. Does the job at giving people social space and letting other meetings be work focused

      Reply ↓
  26. Firefinch*

    I’m a short woman who lived alone as an adult for about 15 years, frequently in sketchy places, sometimes in rural areas overseas. I’ve been assaulted about 7 or 8 times, mostly mildly, and fought back successfully in all stranger situations. Two things are successful at preventing unwanted approaches in the first place: a good Outward Facing B!tch Attitude, and a dog.

    A good OFBA is a neutral face, no smiling, perhaps mildly annoyed or hostile, by no means subservient, shoulders up and broad, chin parallel with the floor, and a sure stride. It’s a bit more than just confident. It’s not relaxed. It cuts down on a lot of unwanted sweet talk, but you might get more requests to smile. A good OFBA communicates that you are not a victim; they’ll prey on someone else. Practice your OFBA.

    For me, the most effective deterrent to unwanted approaches in the woods, on hikes, walking in the city, etc., was a dog. When I was with a dog, I was NEVER improperly approached. Catcalls, sure, but not approached. And I can relax a bit on the OFBA with a dog. Even a terrier is a good deterrent if that’s what you’re looking for. A dog is the only thing that’s an effective deterrent to someone outside the house when you are inside the house.

    If they can’t see a gun, it’s not a deterrent. So if you want a deterrent, carry openly if your state allows it, or get a dog. If your issue is at home, get a shotgun. The sound of that thing racking up is unmistakable, and it says you mean business. You want to NOT use the gun, so let it serve as a deterrent. Also, some states allow you to carry pepper spray openly. If you’re more comfortable with that, get a good can of bear spray and carry that openly.

    If you have a persistent stalker, get a restraining order. You can’t trust that the cops will do anything, but you need the documentation to call in the enforcement if needed. Again, maybe they respond, maybe they don’t, but do the paperwork.

    But seriously, practice your OFBA. Good luck!

    Reply ↓
    1. Bananapants Modiste*

      I second practicing the OFBA, have done that a great deal myself. It really helps.

      And I plan on getting a dog when I’m older.

      Reply ↓
    2. learnedthehardway*

      I think this is very good advice. When I was doing some self-defense training (eons ago), it was pointed out to me that a weapon is more likely to be used against you than to protect you, especially in close quarters.

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    3. Ginger Baker*

      Second all of this. I know OP you said you are working on this already – just want to encourage you to continue! I sometimes miss that I am less social when out and about – I used to have an easy open smile all the time while commuting etc – but now that I look stone-faced the sheer level of harassment has dropped to almost nothing. It’s the face but also the walk – always like you have Somewhere To Be.

      My favorite related anecdote: I was waiting in line at a burger place with my young daughter. She looked up and said to me “Mommy, I know you are nice…but if I did not know, I would think you are not!” That was the moment I knew I had succeeded in my OFBA lol!!

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    4. Apex Mountain*

      I agree that 15 minutes of chit chat is al ot but there must be better ways to deal with the chatters than this

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    5. Mesquito*

      If someone is coming in thru your bedroom window (its happened twice to me – I live in a town w high crime), I don’t know that a mean face is gonna help. And calling the police should never be an emergency plan, they can’t be there fast enough. “Someone else I don’t know will protect me” is not a self-defense plan.

      I don’t use a shotgun for home protection because I don’t think I personally can maneuver around my bedroom with it fast enough. Practice drawing in the space you expect to deal with problems in (in my case, based on experience, that’s my car and my bedroom) to decide on a weapon.

      Reply ↓
      1. No help*

        Unfortunately this advice won’t work unless you live in the United States. In most, if not all European, countries you’re expected to call the police and hope your attacker hasn’t inflicted too much damage by the time they eventually turn up (assuming you can get to the phone in time; if not… well… there’s always prayer…).

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        1. bamcheeks*

          Or maybe we have better windows?! I’ve never met anyone in the UK who thinks this is a thing you worry about or mitigate against. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of anyone I know who has been burgled whilst they were in the house, never mind someone coming directly into their bedroom. I don’t know whether it’s better home security or lower crime rates, but it’s just not something I have ever heard of happening, and it’s certainly not something I would feel the need to plan for!

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          1. No help*

            I have read that home invasions while the homeowners are in the home are more common in the United Kingdom than in the United States; I suspect that has something to do with rates of gun ownership. Either way, it may not happen to you or to anyone else you know, but God help anyone it does happen to—they just have to hope that they’re better bare-knuckle boxers than whoever breaks into their house!

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            1. bamcheeks*

              well no, most burglars are trying to grab a games console or something else easy to sell, not get done for assault or murder!

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            2. Pescadero*

              “I have read that home invasions while the homeowners are in the home are more common in the United Kingdom than in the United States”

              Depends on how you define “common”.

              Only about 28% of US burglaries happen when the homeowner is home. About 69% of UK burglaries happen when the homeowner is home….but the US has a lot more burglaries…and a lot more households.

              Percentage wise and per household – the UK is much higher.
              Total numbers – the USA is higher.

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      2. Firefinch*

        You are correct. The only deterrent from inside the house to outside the house is a dog or, perhaps, the sound of a shotgun if you see them before they approach. I would also recommend self-defense training in general or, if you’re repeatedly attacked, adding bars to the windows if you could afford it, but those mods are very expensive. Fighting sticks are good weapons, but there are always going to be situations where you can’t win. Doesn’t make it your fault. The recommendations were intended to make the OP appear like less of a victim, not guarantee against a determined attack. But even in those instances, sometimes determined resistance can work.

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    6. she was a small town girl*

      This is all very good advice, but if you DO have a stalker, get a weapon of some kind and get comfortable with it. RO/PO does not stop obsessive folks with violence on the mind.

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    7. Tippy*

      As someone who has grown up around guns, been shooting since I was a kid, currently owns guns and has a conceal permit never ever pull a gun on someone unless you are prepared to shoot them. And with all do respect you shoot to kill not shoot to wound. Not to get too blunt but unless you are ready to put that person in the ground you shouldn’t have a gun.

      Reply ↓
      1. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Thank you. I know less than zero about guns, but I was under the impression that “don’t pull a gun unless you’re prepared to use it” was Gun Ownership 101.

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      2. Lucifer*

        Yes to all of Tippy’s advice. I didn’t grow up around guns but even I knew that. Don’t pull a gun unless you are fully committed to shooting that person. Don’t shoot that person unless you are fully committed to ending their life and all that entails afterwards. The blood, the trauma, the ensuing investigation and possible trial to determine if it was legitimately self-defense, the possible civil lawsuit by their next of kin even if a criminal trial determined it was self-defense—are you prepared to go through all of that? A gun’s only purpose is to kill whatever you’ve pointed it at. Wounding is a failure of that execution. I sympathize with OP’s safety concerns as a fellow woman, but the last thing anyone needs is getting a gun “for safety” and then being killed by that same gun. Which happens way more than you’d think.

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    8. Whomst*

      +1 on the dog. I felt a lot safer in my sketchy neighborhood before my dog passed away. When we had a spate of break-ins they hit every apartment in the building except mine. It’s unfortunate that I’m not currently in a position where I could get a dog – it’s a lot of up-front work to get them trained and acclimated to your lifestyle.

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    9. Lemons*

      Yeah, the “gun for self defense” thing I feel like is a big leap past all these steps! The idea of potentially ending someone’s life is just way too much for me, which I think is a possibility you have to accept if you do use a deadly weapon for your self defense. Pepper spray would be the way to go for me, but I’ve found a brisk step, making it clear you’re looking around and you SEE THEM, and RBF has been generally effective. Plus there’s always the good ol’ kick in the janglies option.

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    10. Moose*

      Totally. All those women who are assaulted every year could have prevented it by having a different facial expression. It’s not that they’re asking for it, it’s that they’re not doing this one really simple thing that could prevent it. This is excellent advice!

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      1. Firefinch*

        Obviously not what I meant, or said. Come on, now. I even said “cuts down on” rather than “eliminates” and this is about reducing unwanted approaches in the first place. Way too many of those assaults are dates or known people, which this advice wouldn’t even apply for. Most attackers are looking for an easy victim. This is one way to make yourself appear less like an easy victim. No, it doesn’t absolve the attackers of the actual guilt.

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    11. Lucifer*

      I mean some of us have an RBF handed down through like 5 family generations but have still dealt with stalking, workplace sexual harassment, street harassment (that escalated into physical assault*), etc. So TBH, this comes off as kind of victim-blamey. And considering that the majority of say, SA occurs by one’s romantic partner or family member (as opposed to the stereotypical “pervert in the bushes”) I don’t know that a dog would be a surefire solution to that, unfortunately. Anecdotally, when I worked at an animal shelter, we occasionally had animals come in as a result of abuse in the home :-(

      So again, maybe the onus should be on the men to not commit crimes against women, wow what a novel concept, shocking, I know.

      *Working in Philly: why yes, unhoused populations CAN actually be a safety issue

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      1. Firefinch*

        Obviously, and even clearly stated, this isn’t going to eliminate assault. It does cut down on unwanted approaches in my experience. No this doesn’t absolve the attackers of their guilt. But it’s one way to be selected less often as a victim. Nothing is foolproof, obviously.

        And of course this is about strangers.

        There is data from Kenya on how teaching men not to assault is actually effective. Here is a BBC article on it. https://www.bbc.com/news/education-43466365
        But they haven’t implemented it in the US.

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  27. Richard Hershberger*

    LW1: After a few minutes of chit chat, announce “OK, Let’s get started” and dive into the agenda. It really is that simple, and many (most?) of the people in the meeting will be grateful. If the meeting leader doesn’t lead, the meeting will never get moving.

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  28. Amy*

    15 minutes of socializing before the start of 3-4 calls per week? Wow. That seems like a lot. My team does a monthly optional virtual happy hour. That’s nice.

    This seems distracting and having the potential to be annoying when you really need to get things done.

    I’m fairly extroverted and I honestly feel perfectly fine with just chatting from 9:58-10:01 as everyone gets on the 10am call.

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  29. Expectations*

    3-5 minutes of chit chat has been normal at pretty much every meeting, in person or virtual, at every company I’ve worked at (~30 incl contracts). Usually it’s to allow folks with back to back meetings to arrive. Someone – it doesn’t have to be the meeting organizer or the boss- says something like “it looks like everyone is here” or “should we get started” and we start. Scheduling chit chat or social meetings as such or official social times on agendas would not fly at any of them unless it was framed as a lunchtime or after hours activity.

    If you’re on meetings where the social keeps going, be the person who chimes in.

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  30. Mouse named Anon*

    A place I worked had a format where we shared some kind of good news or something happening in our life at the start of a meetings. Sometimes it was personal or work related (up to the person sharing). It was never intrusive. Stuff like “We just booked a trip to XYZ place” or “I finally finished the New stalls for the Llama barn expansion”. It helped everyone feel a bit more connected but kept things moving.

    Reply ↓
    1. Also-ADHD*

      Oh, I always hated that practice. I remember one team did that and I had to join a meeting with them about a week after my pup died (years ago) and I just dreaded it so much. I’m never a fan of forced positivity, but I particularly have hated it when my life hasn’t been going well.

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  31. Bart*

    Our fully remote team all enjoy each other a lot, and some of us get very little interaction outside of meetings. What our team lead did was created an optional, 30-minute, once a week social call so people who want to and have the time can drop in, pop out, stay for the whole thing, whatever. Not everyone is able to join every week, but it’s nice to join when I can. It’s a nice way to keep the team feeling cohesive and helps keep our other meetings focused.

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  32. Peanut Hamper*

    My husband doesn’t want to because he’s in his 50s and he’s afraid of looking old or incapable, like he can’t do a phone call or meeting.

    But the thing is, he’s already being seeing as incapable of doing a phone call because he can’t actually do a phone call. Get his hearing tested, and get the hearing aids.

    Would he rather be seen as the employee who does a great job and also happens to wear hearing aids, or as the guy we didn’t even interview because he couldn’t hear what we were saying on the phone? His choice, but if he wants a job, he really needs to stop shooting himself in the foot because he’s afraid of looking old.

    And I say this as somebody who is your husband’s age and works in a very complex, demanding job with people of all ages—nobody cares about your age if you do a great job at your work. Some workplaces may not be like that, so YMMV (and those workplaces probably suck in other ways), but what people generally care about is if you can get the work done accurately and efficiently, not whether or not you wear hearing aids.

    Reply ↓
    1. learnedthehardway*

      Very good point. I do a lot of initial phone screens with candidates and someone who cannot communicate effectively with me is not going to get past me to speak with the hiring manager.

      The OP’s spouse should request a scheduled time for the phone interview, when they can be in a quiet environment. Most recruiters know that they may be catching someone in the middle of work. Personally, I prefer to communicate by email, when possible, simply because I don’t want to interrupt someone in the middle of a meeting with their boss or something.

      The OP’s husband could request accommodation for a disability – legally, I would have to provide that. And I would be happy to do so. But the hiring company will also decide whether or not they feel that the candidate’s needs constitute a reasonable or unreasonable accommodation for them to provide. And that’s a lower bar than what they would have to provide an employee – ie. if the person were an employee, they might be provided specialized communications equipment, but the company isn’t going to have that on hand for candidates.

      Sure, the candidate has a legal right to accommodation – but a) it’s hard to prove that they haven’t been properly accommodated (esp. before they have been hired), b) what is reasonable or not is debatable, and c) there’s an expectation that the individual has taken reasonable steps to be employable. Not to mention that suing a company for not accommodating you is costly and probably counter-productive.

      Add to that – hearing aids have come a very long way in recent years. My father (in his 80s) uses them, and you cannot readily tell that he has them in – they’re tiny and the only visible bit is a wee little “antenna”. His quality of life is SO much better with these devices.

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  33. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

    LW2, I’m wondering if the reference thing is something like they wanted a reference that can vouch for how you worked at a hospital, and your colleagues/boss are from clinics or other aspects of your life? Or other expectations on what they were supposed to be like ‘be from most recent job’ or ‘not be from the same job’, ‘can attest to your skill in x’ that maybe wasn’t communicated fully? I’m assuming none of your references are family, or any other type of categories similar to that that would raise suspicion.

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    1. Clown Graveyard*

      OP here. I had a similar thought at first, but there seems to be no mistake. HR requested 4 references, 2 of whom had to be managers, they were all from my most recent employers, I checked with all of these individuals before hand and they were happy to provide the reference, and HR confirmed they received them. :(

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      1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

        So frustrating! Any chance that they called someone in addition to your four references? As I mentioned above, I had an offer pulled after several interviews and strong references from the three people I listed. The hiring manager offered me the job, I accepted, and then she realized she had a friend who would likely have known me in a professional context.

        Her friend? The only person in the city/my career that I considered an enemy. Bye-bye job offer. Just a weird coincidence and bad luck! It was infuriating at the time, but I found out later I dodged a hail of bullets by not working for this particular manager. I hope you find something awesome soon.

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  34. Apex Mountain*

    For #4, using headphones or a landline might work a bit here and there but if your husband is going to actually get hired and work somewhere, it’s hard to see how he can do so without a hearing aid or some similar option.

    I can understand it’s frustrating for him (and you) and it’s probably hard to admit to yourself that you’re at that stage, but if he needs a job he also needs to accept the reality

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  35. Anon-E-Mouse*

    LW3 – Another or an additional route to finding a reference would be to see if there’s a gun club in your area, one that offers opportunities to learn how to use guns (or practice using guns). You could join, develop some skills, get to know some people and then ask for a reference.

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    1. Helewise*

      This is a good idea, especially if you don’t have much gun background. A law enforcement friend told me once that trying to get people to break bad habits was much, much harder than learning how to do things correctly to begin with.

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    2. e271828*

      I expected to see this in Alison’s advice and was surprised she didn’t go straight to it. A gun club will allow LW to practice, to handle different types of guns safely, and to choose a gun suitable for her. In fact I’d see joining a club as an essential: without target practice, without the skill to aim a gun and psychological understanding of what it does and can do (escalates the situation) and how to control that situation, a gun owner is just waving a gun around.

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  36. Kate*

    OP2 (references) you have my utter sympathy!!

    I once had a similar thing happen to me and I was utterly blindsided. I had never had it happen before, and it felt like an utter punch in the gut.

    Circumstances lined up in such a way that I was actually able to get to the bottom of what happened. Basically it was a total mismatch between my reference and my potential new workplace:

    My reference was a former constitutional lawyer, and by her own admission, never gives anything higher than a 4 out of 5. A 4, to her, is saying that you basically walk on water, and a 5 is impossible because then you would be perfect.

    My potential workplace was one where people write performance reviews in such a way that locking the door on your way out is “ensuring the safety and security of all employees by securing means of entry and initiating verification of applicable security protocols” (true story), and therefore anything LESS than a 5 out of 5 means you’re ineligible for hire.

    I’m glad I learned what happened, but somehow it wasn’t particularly satisfying, and it still stings, 10 years later.

    Reply ↓
    1. learnedthehardway*

      That’s so ridiculous – I’m sorry that happened to you. This is the problem when employers rely on references to make their decisions for them – you get mismatched understandings of the role, mismatched assessments, etc. etc.

      OP – if there was something flagged that was really out of left field, the company should have given you the opportunity to address it. Eg. I’ve had situations where a background check revealed a criminal conviction, but it turned out that the records were mixed up and Bob Smith was confused with Bob Smythe. I would ask if it was the references or the background check (credit, criminal, education) that was the issue.

      If it was a reference, perhaps your recruiter can ask for more insight about what the issue was. They should be doing that, anyway, so they will know better what to look for in other candidates.

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  37. L-squared*

    As far as the gun thing, I agree with Alison.

    I’m in a blue state, and pretty liberal. At the same time, I possess a FOID card, but don’t own a gun currently. I can think of a handful of coworkers over time I’d be ok with this ask, but for most, it would be awkward and I wouldn’t appreciate it. I would need to have a relationship with them outside of work for me to consider that, and from what OP is saying, that really doesn’t seem to be the case.

    I’d act as an employment reference for most people, but this, yeah, I think should be kept out of the workplace.

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  38. mango chiffon*

    LW4: I’m 30 years old and not hard of hearing technically, but I have a hard time with audio processing and have for a long time. I hear the words, but sometimes it doesn’t sound like words to me. This is why I always watch tv/movies with subtitles on. I struggle on the phone a lot because the sound transfer is not clear, and sometimes if someone has an accent I’m not used to, it can be harder to understand. If there are other sounds that are around, it’s very difficult to hear. This is something that can’t really be helped with hearing aids unfortunately. You know your husband better and his history, so if his hearing problems are more recent, likely the hearing aids would help. But I would definitely try the focus on a scheduled call (zoom or phone) so he can prepare. He may need to come to that conclusion on his own after failing a few more times, sadly.

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  39. bye*

    One of the downsides to remote work is you don’t get that in-person socialization, that doesn’t mean you then get to dominate 15 minutes of weekly meetings to make up for it. You’re within your rights to limit that to 5 minutes or even moving it to the end of the meeting.

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  40. HonorBox*

    Regarding #1 – Admittedly, there will be some growing pains in making the change I’m about to suggest, but I’d approach these meetings the same way you would if everyone was on site. We have a weekly staff meeting (admittedly, all in person) and people arrive a few minutes early and sometimes stay a few minutes late and have non-work conversations. Make the meeting link available for people to jump on early and stay later. Start the business part within a minute or two of the official start time, and then you and others can leave the meeting when you’ve conducted the business part. My hunch is people will understand the new cadence pretty quickly.

    I’d also suggest that at least to start, you share an agenda in advance and do let people know that the meeting will be open 15 minutes prior and for 15 minutes after to allow people to catch up. And I’d also suggest that, at least every now and then, you arrive early or stay a bit later, just so people can see you as more than just the one running the meeting.

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  41. doreen*

    Vacation day on the last day of work – depending on exactly what the exit procedures are, there might be no way it’s possible for you to work after those procedures. But you might be able to adjust your date – for example, I had to be present at work on my official last day. I had to turn in my equipment , ID , keys etc. on the last day. I couldn’t turn them in earlier because I couldn’t work without them and I couldn’t turn them in later because it was illegal for me to have some of it after my official last day. But if there had been absolutely no way for me to turn those items in on January 31 , I could have made my last day Feb 3 rather than making it January 30 and not being paid for Jan 31.

    But I could have turned everything in on Jan 31, regardless of who was scheduled to be off because my employer was large enough that even if my manager and her manager were both off, some manager would be working and I could turn my equipment into them.

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  42. Mrs. Smith*

    LW3 – I’m a small lady who used to live in a not-very-gun-friendly state and who purchased a gun for self defense purposes after getting my firearms license (which also required character references). I think Alison’s suggestion to start by reaching out to your coworkers for advice is great. Even if you were not planning on asking them to be references, they would still be great resources for information on the firearms licensing process, local firearms safety and training courses, the best local indoor and outdoors ranges, and suggestions for a quality safe to store any firearms you purchase. I think it’s likely that after opening the door by asking for advice, you’ll get a good sense from your coworkers about their level of comfort writing a reference letter. The gun licensing process can be incredibly difficult, so if they have gone through it they will likely be happy to support you in navigating the process yourself. Especially living in a not-so-gun-friendly state, it will be great for you to have local, trustworthy contacts to reach out to if you have any firearm-related questions.

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  43. dulcinea47*

    Oh lord! I am one of the people who would lose my mind if people were chatting for 15 minutes(!) when we’re supposed to be having a meeting. Please start your meetings on time.

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  44. Dog momma*

    ” chat organically”.. what does that mean? am I that out of touch??
    why can’t people just say ” in person”.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      I think in this context “chat organically” means more “chit chat happens naturally, without one party purposefully seeking out the other (or without people being in the same meeting together).” It’s “organic” because they see each other in person but it doesn’t mean quite the same thing as just “talking in person.”

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    3. Myrin*

      Because it’s not the same as “in person” (that’s also why the context in which OP uses the phrase is “in the hall or while walking to meetings, […] a coffee break”) although in person “situations”, for lack of a better word, lend themselves best to it. It just means “it [= the chat] comes up naturally” (i. e. because we’re right next to each other walking to a meeting and both see the cool bird that just flew by outside); if my boss calls me to meet him in his office, that conversation happens in person but definitely not organically.

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  45. Tradd*

    I have a difficult time hearing on regular desk phone a lot of the time, but if I’m on my personal iPhone (don’t have work phone) with AirPod Pro 2, I can hear just fine. For customers I know well or if a call is going to be long, I will use my personal phone. I’d suggest to LW 4 that her husband get some sort of earbuds that have silicone tips that go into your ear. The difference over other earbuds is huge for me.

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  46. Apex Mountain*

    I’m sure this has been said and LW is aware, but some hearing aids are barely visible these days. I recently visited my inlaws and my father in law was wearing ones that I couldnt’ see at all unless I was really looking closely. If that’s part of the issue for the husband

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  47. Lex Talionis*

    Letter #2 – could you have your recruiter call your references ? Once in an out placement class the leader suggested giving references a blind test to make sure you knew what they were going to say. His recommendation was based on a client who was twice torpedoed by someone who deliberately gave him a bad reference. After saying he was happy to be a reference.

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  48. MistOrMister*

    OP1, I am fully remote and personally, I would be hugely annoyed with you for allowing 15 minutes of personal chatting at the beginning of every meeting. I don’t want to chat with my coworkers for that long before every single meeting!!! I think maybe if you try to treat the meetings more like you would an in person one that would give you a better baseline for when to step in. I cannot remember a single in person meeting where the boss had 15 minutes of chitchat happening. And to be running out of time for what actually needs to be discussed is really problematic. Because now what? You either have to have another meeting to finish what could have been done in the first one or people go out missing information they need. I get wanting your remote team to feel connected and all that, but they need to figure out how to be engaged with each other without all this chit chat that is gumming up the works for the meetings because that is just too much.

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  49. Speak*

    LW#5, I am surprised they want you to use a vacation day. Where I currently work and several other places I have worked, once you turn in your notice, you are not aloud to use any more vacation days for the last 2 weeks of your working for the company. This is to prevent someone giving their 2 weeks notice and then taking 2 weeks of vacation so they effectively leave without notice. I would expect if the situation you are in were to be happening in my company, they would just adjust your last day to the day before what you wanted your last day to be, no vacation, just end of working for them.

    Reply ↓
    1. fhqwhgads*

      It sounds like the reason LW5 doesn’t want to do what they’ve asked is because they get a vacation payout and they’d rather have 1 more day of work-pay and current balance of vacation pay. So in their case, it’s a distinction without a difference. If they move the official last day back 1, and vacation balance is paid out, that’s the same as keeping the last day but use vacation time for it.

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  50. DogsOverPeople*

    My two cents is this. I’ve interviewed multiple people who talked over me, didn’t answer the question I asked, and just overall mowed right in over me. They were all men and most were around your husband’s age (though men of any age seem to have a propensity to talk over women interviewers). If ANY of them had told me before the interview that they were hard of hearing, it would have completely transformed my view of them in a much more positive light. I also would have spoken up more. There is age and disability discrimination in the world-there is no doubt of that. But disclosing his hearing impairment could totally change how these interviewers are seeing him.

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  51. she was a small town girl*

    LW 3, I have to agree with Alison’s suggestion to approach the topic more broadly and see if they bite (and if they don’t let it lie). If public perception is as stringent as you say where you live there is a distinct chance that other people in the company might begin to associate you with certain stereotypes if they were aware you were discussing gun ownership with these folks. Perhaps not intentionally, but it might change their perception in a way that might be disadvantageous to you.

    I am sympathetic to your situation, as I am a female gun-owner (albeit in a much more politically conservative state) and the topic can be fraught to discuss with folks because there are certain thoughts about people who own guns and people who don’t own guns that aren’t exactly accurate in my experience yet stubbornly persist. Good luck!

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  52. Tradd*

    I want to point out that if LW 4’s husband has an iPhone capable of being updated to iOS 18.1 and already has AirPod Pro 2 earbuds, he has a pair of hearing aids for low to moderate hearing loss in the earbuds.. Apple released this feature late last year. You do a hearing test and then go from there. Since this LW’s husband thinks hearing aids are for older people, maybe this AirPod Pro 2 feature will help him get over the stigma. So many people wear their AirPods all the time.

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  53. WillowSunstar*

    One option for the phone could be a bluetooth headset. I live in an apartment with sometimes noisy neighbors, and am doing phone screens now because I’m being laid off soon. It helps.
    Some cell phone manufacturers also do have other headset options, but it may depend on the company.

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  54. Hard of Hearing*

    LW4 – I’m also hard of hearing and have been my entire life (currently in my 30’s). I HIGHLY encourage your husband to get fitted for hearing aids. If you can afford it, go to an Audiologist’s office instead of a walk-in hearing aid place. Your insurance may help cover the cost, and most offices will let you have a trial period to see if your set is working for you.

    Hearing aid technology and design have come a long way. Behind-the-ear hearing aids come in a variety of colors to match hair and skin tones, while in-the-canal aids are almost invisible. Bluetooth technology allows cell phone calls to be connected directly to your hearing aids which makes a world of difference.

    As for interviewing, some teleconference platforms have the option of live captioning. It’s not perfect but it can help if you miss words here or there. I understand the worry about potential ageism and discrimination, but I’ve never not gotten a job because of my hearing. Most interviewers are understanding and happy to accommodate if at the beginning of the interview you say something like “FYI, I am hard of hearing. I do wear hearing aids but I may need you to speak up a bit or repeat things for me.” If they aren’t, then they’re probably not a good workplace fit for you.

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  55. Caramel & Cheddar*

    RE: chit chat and remote teams: people have suggested both starting early / putting chit chat at the end, as well as having dedicated social spaces on Teams/Slack, but I think one other thing you can do is make sure people are aware that they can set up informal chats too that’s kind of the best of both worlds here. We’ve all had the boss who gets annoyed when people are socializing too much in the office, and so it’s easy to assume it would be frowned upon to have a call specifically for this person. Make sure they know it’s fine!

    Similar to how if you were in office you might just generally announce to those in your vicinity “I’m going to grab a coffee, does anyone want to join me?”, there’s nothing stopping someone from doing something similar in your Teams chat, e.g. “I’m about to make a coffee, is anyone up for a quick social call?” A former colleague of mine used to message me periodically when she was making her hot beverage of choice and it was nice to catch up; there’s no reason you can’t take that approach to the broader team.

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  56. RoDan*

    re Letter #2

    I was on the opposite side of this issue once, giving a job to someone where another candidate (and their references) thought they’d given an absolutely flawless interview/reference. Main difference here is we had NOT made an offer before checking the references.

    I had a role to fill and it came down to an immensely talented external candidate and an internal candidate with tremendous upside. The previous person in the role had been a disaster, so maybe I was extra sensitive to red flags. The internal candidate gave three people for references: a past colleague from outside the organization, a co-worker he’d worked directly with and his boss. The past worker gave a good reference, but it was necessarily very general because he didn’t know our organization or the role we were hiring for. He simply lauded this candidates many good qualities. The boss punted on the reference altogether; she just said the co-worker the candidate had worked with could speak for her.

    So that left the co-worker, and she gave an awful reference. Not on purpose, her affection and belief the candidate could do the job were obvious. But she completely misunderstood what the job was! For example, this woman explained I should give the candidate the job because he was tired of mentoring and coaching co-workers and clients in his current role … when the job in question had a massive mentoring and coaching component! It went on and on like this. Many times I considered stopping the talk to let her know the damage she was doing, but I didn’t say anything in the end because I was just so bewildered.

    I went with the external candidate and things blew up. The co-worker and the boss were appalled I went with the outside candidate. The boss (the one who declined to give a substantive referral, mind you) actually suggested to me the job offer should be rescinded and redirected to the internal guy. I strongly suspect the boss believed the role was in the bag for her guy, and told him so, because his response to not getting the job was aggressive. Not physical or threatening, but he was disappointed in not getting the role, naturally, and he didn’t hold back in expressing that disappointment at all!

    Eventually HR got involved. I explained to them what had happened, what my thinking was, and luckily I still had my hand written notes from each talk. HR agreed with me and things calmed down after that.

    All of which is a long way of saying if you are going to give a reference for someone you care for, make sure you understand what the job is. If you think you can half ass your way through it, you are really going to tank that person’s prospects!

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  57. Sara without an H*

    Hi, OP#1 — Upstream commenters have already weighed in with excellent advice, most of which I enthusiastically second. I’ve found agendas with time allocations a real help in reining in chatty people or those who tend to stray from the point.

    That said, I’m concerned about the amount of dichotomous thinking you’re apparently doing. Your options in real life are NOT limited to letting social chit-chat run on and on versus making people think you are “an emotionless computer” if you dial down your “smiles and exclamation marks veneer.” Why not take Alison’s advice, move most of the social section of your meeting to the end of the agenda, and use your “smiles and exclamation marks” talents to make that announcement? Setting boundaries in a warm, friendly voice is a useful skill. Do you have a mentor at your company? If you know a senior person who runs meetings well, try asking them for advice.

    A lot of people would recommend consulting a therapist for help getting out of your own head, and if that’s an option, go for it. But you can probably reduce your dependence on either-or thinking yourself. I recommend Andrea Bonior’s Detox Your Thoughts. Amazon shows it as available in both paperback and Kindle versions, or you could check your local library for a copy.

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  58. ArtK*

    For remote worker socialization, my company uses an app called “Donut” which integrates with Slack. Every few weeks it pairs up people and gets them to schedule a call with each other. Meeting isn’t mandatory, but it’s a nice way to get to know your colleagues.

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  59. Jane Doe*

    LW 2- do you have a really common name? First and last? Several years ago, I worked with a guy who had a very common name. His job offer at the company we worked at together was almost rescinded because he had the same name and birthday as a major ex con drug dealer in our state and it showed up in the routine background check. I don’t know why the Social Security numbers were not a giveaway but maybe they weren’t used. Point is, something weird like that could’ve happened maybe? In his case, fortunately somebody had the sense to realize it did not make sense and called him to sort it out.

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    1. Sneaky Squirrel*

      When you run a background check, it’s often not one search but a search through multiple levels of county, state, and federal. Some counties do a key word search on name/birthdate and a person can match a name/birthday flag and that could be enough for a background check vendor to red flag.

      I think that’d be harder to say that name was the issue with this situation unless the person giving the reference or taking the reference mixed up who they were talking about.

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  60. Bluestocking*

    #4 (Hard of Hearing), I am hard of hearing, as well, and wear hearing aids in both ears for it. If you are in the United States, your husband can probably go through your state’s Vocational Rehabilitation service and see about getting him tested that way. For me, because my hearing impairs my ability to work, Voc Rehab paid for my last three pairs of hearing aids. They will refer and pay for your husband to visit an audiologist to get tested. My hearing aids have blue tooth and it is so helpful for phone calls!

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  61. MoreAnonThanUsual*

    OP3, I own guns and I live in an area where they’re not part of most people’s day to day lives. Gun ownership is sort of like a secret club here. People don’t talk about it in casual conversation, but if other owners find out that you own firearms, suddenly a whole world of conversation and enthusiasm opens up and you get entrance into a network of other people who have had to navigate your state’s firearm laws. Which is its own hobby, in a way.

    I second all recommendations to bring it up with your coworkers outside of earshot of anyone else, and also to talk to your local gun ranges directly. Many, many ranges have beginner friendly safety classes. There are also classes focused specifically on self defense, which is different than knowing how to safely operate and maintain a firearm.

    One final note on your plans: you didn’t ask this, but you’ll run into it. You would not be the first woman to want to purchase a firearm for personal safety reasons. There’s nothing wrong with that. However, the logistics of safely owning and storing a firearm are at cross purposes with the logistics of having a weapon available to you at a moment’s notice for self defense. If anything were to give someone pause about giving you a reference, it would be that you hadn’t thought through how to accomplish *both* goals: safe storage and personal protection. This is a solvable problem, and it’s the answer I’d want before I served as your reference.

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      1. Jack Russell Terrier*

        Right – it’s non-trivial actually to make decisions in the moment about what you’re going to do, especially if you’re not handling guns a lot.

        I would definitely try and find some place to train you in this – whether is ex-military type thing, virtual … . This is the extremely difficult part – you can become proficient in being a good shot, but you have to be ready to make split second decisions so you don’t have the gun turned on you or you end up shooting someone you know.

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  62. Dawn*

    LW3: I understand very well how you’re feeling. I’m a trans woman living in today’s world, and I certainly get feeling unsafe.

    However: how is a gun kept secured inside of your home going to help keep you safe?

    Reflect back on your creepy encounters. Would having a secured gun in your home have done anything to make you safer in those situations?

    Now – just like Alison, I’m opposed to gun ownership myself. I’m a Canadian, we don’t carry guns for self-defense here, it scares me. But putting my feelings about that aside, I’d still strongly encourage you to look to some other self-defense option in this case, one that you can have at the ready – does your jurisdiction perhaps allow you to carry pepper spray, or perhaps a taser? Remember that you can still get in legal trouble for using a gun for self-defense if the force used is considered disproportionate; I have to feel that a non-lethal self-defense option that you can carry to hand when you are away from home is more your friend here.

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    2. LW 3*

      Thank you! It’s actually not when I’m out on the street that I’m concerned about. The scary incidents that occurred previously were people who deliberately came to my home or workplace. I’m definitely looking into all solutions and am open to being educated on what works. But being able to yell through a door that I am armed and I am on the phone with 911 (and somehow signaling that this is true, like by racking a shotgun or showing the gun through a window) is the idea here. Last time, I grabbed a baseball bat, and while I definitely hit some home runs in my time, I don’t know how well that would have worked had my opponent not been a tiny greasy weasel-man who was afraid of being arrested and still thought he could convince me to fall in love with him.

      I agree with you that mace + self-defense classes is a much better option for me when I’m outside my home.

      Please you stay safe out there!

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  63. HonorBox*

    OP5 – Because your boss is determining your last day, ask them or HR if your last day can coincide. If your work will be complete enough that you’re not needed in the office the following day, there is no reason for them to require you to take a day of PTO. They’ll have the additional day of PTO payout, but if you’re really not needed in the office, they shouldn’t balk at just adjusting and making the day before your last day.

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  64. Fsp3*

    LW3: If they’re the sort to pick up on an “out” and you have a good relationship then I think you can toss in the caveat of “I understand if this is a boundary you’d rather not cross in our work relationship.” In my experience with that culture there is a lot of solemness and seriousness that I wouldn’t really expect negative ramifications from asking them. People a bit more removed from that lifestyle may not grasp that nuance, but of course, there is still obviously some risk to asking.

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  65. Dust Bunny*

    The husband needs to get tested and get hearing aids!

    One, it’s hurting his job hunting. Two, it’s going to end up annoying his wife. Conversations with my mother, who owns but will not wear hearing aids, are a bog of “what?” “what?” “what?” and nonsensical misinterpretations of things that she didn’t hear correctly. I once told her I was going to go get cat food and she was aghast that I was going to get a tattoo. Three, he’ll probably need them once he gets hired somewhere, anyway.

    Modern hearing aids are tiny and inconspicuous. If he’s worried about “looking old”, I promise that wearing hearing aids doesn’t make you seem half so old as does needing everything repeated because you couldn’t hear it.

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    1. Pikachu*

      My dad found out he needed hearing aids a few months ago when he and I were in a quiet art museum. He spoke at what I can only assume he believed was normal indoor museum volume but his voice rang out so loud it echoed. Comically loud. Multiple heads peeking in the gallery to see what happened loud.

      People don’t seem old wearing a hearing device. People do seem kinda old when they keep asking you to repeat things or speaking at unreasonable volumes in the wrong places.

      How did your cat food tattoo turn out? :)

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  66. FCJ*

    Only one or two people work in the office at my job, so all of our meetings are on Zoom. We start some meetings with check-ins, where our boss or someone else poses a usually low-stakes or silly question–What’s your favorite comfort food? Where do you like to go on vacation? What’s your least favorite weather?–and anyone who wants to can answer it, and then we get into the meeting. In larger meetings we rotate responsibility to do some kind of opening, where one person brings a quote or sometimes a link to a piece of art or music, and it kind of creates that same social bonding and brings everyone into the meeting “space” without spinning out into socializing.

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  67. LifebeforeCorona*

    #4 Your husband absolutely needs to get his hearing tested before it gets worse. Hearing aids now are very discreet and the difference in being able to hear clearly again is amazing. A colleague finally got tested and now they can’t believe they delayed for so long.

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  68. Flit*

    LW #4, how are your husband’s interviews scheduled? If it’s over the phone, it’s very possible he’s mishearing the time or date which would explain the off-schedule calls. My dad does this all the time- he doesn’t hear and then decides what was said regardless of facts. Does your husband also blame other people for mumbling, speaking too softly or having a voice in the wrong pitch? He definitely needs hearing assistance.

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  69. RagingADHD*

    LW3, as someone who has been asked to be a character reference for a pistol permit before, I disagree that this would put your coworkers in an awkward position. If they do not feel that they can properly give a reference, they can just say they don’t know you well enough on a personal level.

    FWIW, in the state where I was asked to be a reference, the true intent of the questions do not really pertain “handling safety issues,” but to screen for whether or not the applicant is prone to violence or volatile behavior in their personal life (such as unreported DV), or whether they have suicidal tendencies. Your senior coworkers may legitimately feel that they don’t know you well enough to speak to those issues, and if not, I don’t think they are likely to feel awkward about demurring on that basis.

    If they were junior to you, it would be an imposition. But since you are asking “up,” I don’t think you have that same concern.

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  70. "No" is a complete sentence*

    LW #3: Also consider taking a self-defense course that includes practicing strikes at full force. I volunteer as an instructor for http://www.modelmugging.org which offers courses nationally, and I’m sure there are other resources in your area too. I became an instructor because taking the course fundamentally changed how I carry myself in public, let me practice setting boundaries with strangers and acquaintances (loudly), and gave me the confidence that if that guy following me down the street shouting obscenities stepped into my space he would permanently regret it.

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    1. "No" is a complete sentence*

      This course also carried over into me being clearer on my boundaries in a work context, fwiw. Women are so socialized to accept discomfort to prevent others from feeling uncomfortable, it’s hard to recognize and break out of those patterns.

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  71. kalli*

    LW1 – “I think everyone’s arrived, let’s get started!”

    LW3 – yeah, don’t do that. It’s not something you need to bring to work or advertise at work.

    LW4 – “I was expecting our call at [scheduled time]. Can you give me a minute or so to get somewhere quieter?”

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  72. Throwaway Account*

    For the Reference problem, this happened to a friend. Fortunately the hiring manager had a great solution!

    My friend was at the end of the process for a very fancy job at the point where new job made an offer but wanted to speak to my friend’s current boss. Boss said my friend needed to work on a skill (something like collaboration or managing staff) that was essential to this level of position. This almost tanked the job offer.

    But the hiring manager was smart enough to reach out to my friend and ask about it since this did not seem to match my friend’s work experience and asked if there were other managers or anyone who could speak directly about my friend’s skill in this area. Fortunately, my friend was able to provide someone to explain the situation. The boss was problematic in so many ways. But my friend never expected boss to do what he did.

    And my friend has a shiny new job in a great workplace and city and does not have to deal with old boss anymore!

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  73. Ollie*

    I worked in the office for 10 years with people who became friends. Then I had to move and worked remotely for 7 years. Everyone else was still in the office. The thing I missed most was the chatting. All comunication became business stuff. It can get lonely working from home. My opinion is make the meeting 15 minutes longer and state that the first 15 minutes is for chatting and people don’t need to join then but the meeting will start promptly at x.

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  74. Anon today*

    LW #3

    The first rule of concealed carry club is, you do not talk about concealed carry!!!
    I live in a very pro 2A state. At my place of employment for awhile it was known who regularly carried, so if it was late, and you didn’t want to walk to your car alone, you asked one of these people.
    Well, being a petite woman, once I was comfortable enough with my accuracy that I felt silly leaving my weapon at home, I asked to be put on this list.
    BAD IDEA All of a sudden no one had ever carried a firearm on the premises! Ummm, what about the guy that OPEN carried for almost a month until he found a concealed holster he liked? Nope, that never happened. What about the all staff safety meeting we had after that pregnant lady got stabbed across the street? Nope, that also never happened. ::smh::

    Good luck with that permit, and keep your mouth shut!
    P.S. Those permit requirements may very well by unconstitutional.

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I can’t tell from the details here, but what exactly was the issue? i.e. was it an unspoken “list” and your workplace didn’t actually want people to open carry, so you asking to be added to a formal list exposed all the other folks who carried and the workplace shut it all down? Something else?

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    2. ElliottRook*

      If the requirements are “unconstitutional,” it’s high time we corrected the constitution and struck down that amendment!

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  75. Bruce*

    LW4: My step-son has hearing issues, his hearing aids were stolen and it affected his job interviews until he got them replaced, so I can relate to how you feel! Would it help for your husband to carry Bluetooth ear-buds? They are very compact and he could quickly put them on if he gets a call on his cellphone. I believe some are being certified as basic hearing aids too, though I’m not sure of the status of that.

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  76. Niles 'the coyote' Crane*

    15 minutes of chat is so long!

    One of the regular team catch ups that I join will do about 5 mins of chat. Occasionally it does go longer than that, when something in particular is happening (like everyone is catching up for the first meeting hack after Christmas, or someone has just got married and everyone’s asking about it…) but even then, I can’t imagine anyone would object if somebody pulled us back on track.

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  77. Raida*

    . How do I balance work and socializing at hybrid team meetings?

    If this amount of social interaction is important to the remote staff, then I’d add a 10min “chat time” butted up against the start of the actual meeting, so that people can hop in specifically to chat, or come just to the meeting.
    Additional benefit of this is that the people chatting have to *leave* the chat meeting to come to the work one, drawing a line under it and creating a more active shift in gear.

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  78. Raida*

    3. Discussing gun ownership with coworkers

    Definitely start by chatting about gun ownership and express an interest – pick their brains on local gun clubs/shooting ranges, how did they go about the process, what do they wish they’d known before starting, etc.

    Include in this chatter the character references, and say “Gosh I’d usually ask Coworker1, Coworker2, Coworker3 for something like that, but I don’t think any of them are comfortable around firearms (say firearms, not guns). Do you think you’d be able to provide that reference, since you’ve seen me handle safety procedures?”
    If they prevaricate, immediately follow up with “I’m sure I can find a reference, you just already owns a firearm.”

    But honestly I’m wondering – do you not know anyone outside of work? No family members, school friends, neighbours, social activity associates, etc? Or is this just a case of “everyone here is anti-gun” so it’s a really small pool of people?
    If so, I’d go join a gun club (if that’s a thing where you live), get practice, learn the safety, and discuss the reference with the members – no doubt they’d be the best practical resource on gun ownership.

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    1. LW 3*

      I didn’t grow up here and am still trying to make close friends. I’m very confident the people I know would vouch for my character. However, I don’t know who would be receptive to vouching for me *so that I can own a gun*. I live in a blue state and have an even bluer (indigo?) profession, so asking the question to the wrong person might get me blacklisted from certain social circles and/or have professional backlash.

      I really like the idea of getting in touch with a gun club. Thanks!

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      1. Anonarama*

        So just a note…many gun clubs where I live require nra membership to join. shooting at ranges is fun and I’d like to do more of it but I also will not directly fund the nra. Is that something you’re willing to do?

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        1. Jenesis*

          Came here to say this. I don’t know the situation where you live, but a lot of “gun clubs” in my area are really more like “range membership clubs”, where you pay an upfront fee and in exchange get access to discounted range fees and other perks like specialized classes and members-only competitions.

          I would NOT recommend paying a fee to join any kind of club unless you are absolutely sure you enjoy the culture of the hosting range(s) and intend to return on a regular basis. That includes the political leaning of the club (and NRA membership requirement is sadly not rare).

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  79. Raida*

    4. Phone interviews when you’re hard of hearing

    Honestly… some husbands…

    I’d make an appointment for him, and just take him there. Once he realises where you two are and why I’d point blank ask him “Do you want a new job? Move your arse honey.”

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  80. Filicophyta*

    Regarding mentions of bear spray: Do not -ever- use bear spray against a human (or pet dog). It is dangerous, and in some place illegal.

    There are products made for self-defence if that is what you chose. Pepper spray is illegal in Canada, but not in the USA (but type and amount are regulated).

    “Bear spray is legal and only sold for use in wilderness situations in which an individual is likely to encounter a bear. As a result, if a person was to carry bear spray or pepper spray in their pocket walking around in the city, they may be charged for carrying a concealed weapon under [Canada specific info].”

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  81. Grith*

    LW4 – Putting the hearing issues to one side for now. As someone who works in an office, if I’m job hunting, calling me outside the times I’ve specified is NOT AN OPTION. Full stop.

    It’s not a big deal to be unable to discuss taking another job while at your current job. And if you’ve told people you’re going to pop out for lunch and sit in your car 5 minutes up the road, they don’t then get to call you half an hour early just because it’s convenient for them. These might not actually be your husband’s circumstances, but it’s absolutely normal to not be able to take a call about taking another job at any moment without notice during the normal workday.

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