is my boss being too open about menopause?

by Alison Green on February 4, 2025

A reader writes:

I (a woman in my early 30s) work in a traditionally male environment, although there are a decent amount of women working there too. Recently my work has started focusing more on menopause support/awareness — there’s a menopause support group, “recognizing signs and symptoms” posters in the women’s toilets, etc. I think that’s great.

My manager has been making comments about menopause that really, really bother me. Things like, “Well, I better write that down because as a woman of a certain age, if I don’t I’ll forget it” or “I must have forgotten to do that — it comes with the menopause,” and so on. She makes these comments in meetings with men and women present, and just in public around the office.

I feel like she’s basically saying that she’s less able to do her job because she’s a woman. It gives license to men who hear it to make similar comments/assumptions about other women of her age group (who won’t all be experiencing the same issues she is), and I feel like I have to work harder to prove myself, too. I think that sort of comment should stay in the support group, and not be brought up so publicly. If it’s impacting her work, she might need to talk to her manager about it, but there’s no need to make the comments in meetings when she could just write whatever it is down and say nothing. Younger women in my workplace don’t blame their issues on their periods, they deal with it and move on.

I’m not asking if I should say anything to her about this, I have absolutely no intention of doing so. I’m just wondering if I’m off the mark? I’ve obviously not experienced menopause, but I can imagine that it’s frustrating to suddenly struggle with something that you used to be fine with, and wanting to explain why. I wouldn’t normally think someone needed to keep a health issue secret at work unless they wanted to, but it’s the broadness of what she’s saying — “all menopausal women/women my age” — that bothers me so much.

But then at the same time, I have male colleagues who’ve made similar “all men of my age” comments about being forgetful, and it’s not bothered me at all or made me look at other men as less able to do their jobs. So is it really fair of me to be holding her to a different standard because she’s a woman?

You’re more bothered by your boss’s comments than by the men’s comments because hers come against a backdrop of women already being discriminated against at work and having to work harder to be taken seriously, as well as a long history of women being dismissed as overly controlled by their bodies. That changes the way it lands.

It’s also true that age discrimination is a thing, and your male coworkers’ comments about themselves are landing against that backdrop … but I suspect that isn’t hitting you in the same way because, as a group, men have some built-in societal protections that women lack.

It’s also true that people should be able to talk about what they’re experiencing, and in theory it’s a good thing for people to feel comfortable talking about challenges associated with health or aging or all sorts of other things. But realistically, we aren’t there yet; there is still stigma and bias associated with lots of health conditions (from ADHD to mental health and on and on) that often makes it safer not to share them at work. And it certainly doesn’t feel like we’re in a cultural moment where that’s about to get better.

Part of the problem, too, is that your boss is talking about her experience with menopause as a universal experience for all women of a certain age. It’s like if you were both parenting young children and she kept writing off her forgetfulness as “I must have forgotten to do that — it comes with being a mom.” You’d rightly not appreciate how that reflected on fellow moms, who already face bias in the work world.

So, no, I don’t think you’re off the mark in feeling uncomfortable with your boss’s comments. But I also think that’s very much about the culture we live in: it’s not that she’s doing something inherently wrong; it’s that we live in a sexist culture where women have to worry about this.

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{ 291 comments }

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  1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

    1. Your boss is using menopause as an excuse for her own forgetfulness. Which can happen at any age.

    2. Yeah, this is very bad. Its not about being open about a perfectly normal thing that happens with women’s bodies. It’s about claiming that this perfectly normal thing makes you less able to function in the workplace. Which is really not a good look. if you have hot flashes, forgetfulness, whatever, sure accomodations are fine. but this comes across as silly old lady, I just can’t help myself. Which is very much a her problem.

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    1. LadyMTL*

      I was thinking the same thing re: your second point. It reminds me of when some men will make gross PMS jokes (‘you’re in a mood today, are you PMSing or something’?) only this time it’s the boss making comments at her own expense.

      I’m a woman in my late 40’s and menopause is creeping up on me, but I can’t fathom ever saying things like this in a work setting. Talk about undermining myself, oof.

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        1. Space Needlepoint*

          PMS and other period-related jokes immediately came to my mind as well. It’s a great excuse for men to say women can’t handle high-powered jobs and reinforce the glass ceiling.

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          1. Archi-detect*

            “what if there is an emergency during her time of the month?” was said of both female nominees for president

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            2. boof*

              … thankfully I didn’t hear that one because i’d really question if they had any idea about biology given both major candidates in the states I can think of were 60+ when running…

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              1. Grandma*

                “…i’d really question if they had any idea about biology…”

                Well, that question has been asked and decidedly answered in recent years. Think of all the men making decisions about women’s bodies who publicly demonstrate that all they know about conception and pregnancy is, “When a mommie and a daddy r-e-a-l-l-y love each other….” And then there’s JFK Jr and his ignoramus ideas on health in general.

                Reply ↓
                1. MigraineMonth*

                  When you have to fight your state legislature to make an abortion ban exception for ectopic pregnancies…

            3. Elizabeth West*

              The only acceptable answer is, so what? I’m sure both of those very capable women could have handled it fine.

              This boss needs to stop undermining herself.

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      2. LaminarFlow*

        Omg yes! I am also a middle aged woman, and I can’t fathom citing menopause for any and every mistake. The LW’s manager is feeding into negative stereotypes about older women, which is gross, especially since she’s a woman in a leadership role.

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    2. Dawn*

      In fairness menopause genuinely can cause forgetfulness and brain fog, or at least, women going through it report these as symptoms.

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        1. Michelle*

          So who decides if it’s “an excuse” and if it’s real or if she’s just forgetting things for funzies? Since the woman having the symptoms can’t be trusted?

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          1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

            Never said she can’t be trusted. But its on her to develop strategies not just make a joke out of it. Because its not professional.

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            1. Michelle*

              Assuming she hasn’t developed strategies to deal with it implies she can’t be trusted.

              Or did you mean deal with it silently?

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                1. dude, who moved my cheese?*

                  I really do not see this in the letter unless by dealing with it you mean she should shut up?

                2. Michelle*

                  Yeah, it’s not like she’s writing a note to herself and specifically telling people that she’ll be doing that from now on.

                  Oh wait, she is. It’s right there in the post.

                  But it’s cool, I know what you really meant.

                1. Michelle*

                  Why on earth not? Is it distasteful? Should we shut up about morning sickness too and just pretend we’re going to the bathroom to get out of doing work?

              3. Observer*

                Or did you mean deal with it silently?

                Certainly deal with it without making a constant issue of it. And even more so, without making it sound like every woman “of a certain age” is going to have this problem!

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                1. Michelle*

                  Pretend for a second that it IS a constant issue. And that the vast majority of women “of a certain age” WILL have this problem to a greater or lesser degree.

                  What should happen then?

                2. Sharon*

                  Michelle, I think the issue is overgeneralization. Anybody struggling with a health or aging issue can say, “I’m struggling with XYZ” (and request accommodations if needed) but different people with the same condition have different experiences. And since “perceived disability” can be a cause for discrimination it’s best to keep it person-specific.

            2. SunnyShine*

              She literally said she is going to write it down. That’s a strategy. And sometimes it takes months to find a working strategy. Sounds like you just want her to not mention it at all which is really weird.

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              1. metadata minion*

                Why is it weird not to mention it? I can understand mentioning occasionally if you’re having a particularly bad day, but otherwise just…write the thing down or apologize for forgetting it or whatever. Telling people that it’s due to menopause isn’t giving them information they can use to help you.

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                1. Susan*

                  I am a perimenopausal woman, and I think it is weird to mention it in a group setting like this. TMI – but a common symptom is extremely heavy bleeding. I might warn my boss or someone running a meeting that I might have to leave a meeting suddenly, but I am not going to announce the reason why to the entire group.

                2. I own one tenacious plant*

                  I don’t think the boss would be mentioning these things if she wasn’t experiencing them. The point of mentioning issues is to flag it for others around her that she may forget things or appear more scattered than usual because she has legit bio changes happening. Is she communication poorly? Perhaps. But it may be her way of asking for a bit of grace. Same as one might tell coworkers they have a headache to explain a change of demeanour at work.

          3. MK*

            The reality is, it doesn’t matter why she is forgetting things, it’s part of her job to manage that. No one suggested her account of her symptoms can’t be trusted, or even that menopause isn’t the reason for her forgetfullness. But when you constantly bring up the reason you have to do something, it beginns to feel like an excuse. Let’s say someone has severe back pain, diagnosed via scans and indisputable, and because of that they have to use a cart to move around files that others would just carry. It would be beyond weird for them to mention all the time: “oh, I have to bring these files? I must get the cart, I can’t carry them because of my back pain”, “hi everyone, I just brought these files to the meeting with the cart, I have to use it because of my back pain”, etc. There is no reason to mention how you are accomplishing normal tasks of your job.

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            1. Calamity Janine*

              i know this isn’t really what you want to hear and is perhaps a discussion adjacent to the real one, but as someone who is physically disabled… actually we do kinda have to do that tactic too. especially if your disability has any sort of variability to it and even more so if it’s invisible and-or just not immediately apparent at five hundred paces. without constantly justifying what we’re using as an accessibility measure, some folks will write us off as merely lazy and looking for excuses. and more pressingly it is something where unless you’re reminding some folks that you need that cart for a reason, they’re going to just take it and use it unless you constantly remind them that you’re not using it just for funsies but for a medical need that is continuous and ongoing and in the room with us right now.

              trust me when i say it is tiresome to have to get into such a habit in the first place of continuing to justify the space you take up. there are nonetheless plenty of people who will push you out unless you constantly throw some metaphorical elbows about it.

              it’s not identical to the misogyny driving the problems here, but as a disabled woman, though premenopausal as i am… it ain’t the exact same but it sure does rhyme.

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              1. Dawn*

                Ain’t that the truth. I can’t even count the number of times I’ve had to fight back against coworkers/employers not liking some very basic and unobtrusive things I have to do to continue to stay alive.

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                1. Calamity Janine*

                  right!! the amount of people who will straight up yoink somebody’s wheelchair is honestly staggering. i miss when i was shocked by hearing tales of it happen to folks. so many people will take it as permission if a butt leaves a seat for fifteen seconds! and then it becomes a battle of “but i just saw you walk (for a short distance, which you can’t keep up for an extended period of time which is why you need your wheelchair to function), so it’s not like you really need it! i’m helping you to not be so lazy!”… much less things that are so much less easily understood at first glance and visible all the time, like having to check blood sugar or your insulin pump. i mean good god how many tales could we crowd source just here and now of folks who have continuous glucose monitors… yeah i’m sure someone is annoyed by it beeping during a meeting, but it turns out that keeling over with an extremely low blood sugar is way more disruptive to the sacred meeting space, CEO Throckmornton!! hell, it wouldn’t surprise me if we could go to the out of touch CEO stories thread and find an instance of this sort of bull that you have experienced also discussed!

                  i really wish we lived in a world where doing that song and dance of constant justification was indeed just a very silly thing that nobody needed to do. unfortunately… we aren’t there yet lol… so it takes MK’s attempted metaphor from “it is absurd to tell people how you’re doing your job, just do it, it’s just like someone constantly reminding people they have a cart to carry files with. how silly! there’s no reason to constantly mention that!” straight to a rebuttal of “actually about that metaphor… yeah that happens because unfortunately it needs to. what’s obvious to you isn’t obvious to everyone and that’s a defensive tactic that people learn for reasons. they say it because otherwise they’ll get punished for it. it sucks to deal with and it’s easy to write it off as absurd when you’re looking at this from the outside, but it’s not people trying to be too cute and super special and annoying by constantly repeating their personal TMI medical facts – it’s people advocating for themselves”.

                  maybe this will inspire MK (and other readers) to stop and examine why this kind of self-advocacy has gotten lumped in their head with the category of “an annoying and absurd habit that nobody reasonable would do”, and maybe cross-index those feelings with how much of ableism comes in the form of telling people to stop being ridiculous and accusing them of just wanting to pretend they’re special by demanding special treatment and being a spoiled brat about it. i know that’s a little mean, but phew boy is that a very telling metaphor that was chosen, y’know? labeling the daily life of many a disabled person as absurd depends on dismissing any reasons why people would need to employ these sort of tactics… and honestly to get there, you have to do at least a little ignoring disabled people talking about the daily burdens of ableism. it turns out that using ableism’s logic makes arguments less sound and not more so. and if that’s where you’re cribbing arguments from, well… it’s a good sign to rethink the arguments lol

                2. Dawn*

                  I’m actually one of the CGM folks, haha; I could tell you stories of:
                  1. Being told that I have to take injections in a public bathroom because it “makes people uncomfortable” when I do them under my desk facing away from everyone (no.)
                  2. That I can’t check my CGM because that requires a phone and the policy is that you can’t have phones (no.)
                  3. That I can’t carry quick sugar with me because eating wherever my job is being done is not allowed (and it’s not a safety issue, it’s an office floor, etc) (no.)
                  4. That I can’t keep my bag with me, in which I carry my diabetes supplies, and it has to be stored in a locker (once again, no.)

                  And I’m sure there’s some I’m forgetting! People don’t think of diabetes as a “real” disability and I have to constantly remind some of them that my rights are very, very much protected by the law, never mind common decency.

                  And I’m sure there’s some I’m

              2. Observer*

                It sounds like you are dealing with an issue of advocacy, if I’m reading correctly. But that is totally not what’s happening here, based on the LW’s description.

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                1. Calamity Janine*

                  well, that’s sort of my point and rebuttal to MK – what MK characterized as tiresome repetition that wastes time *is* advocacy. one of the shapes ableism takes is the idea that as soon as someone stops mentioning their current issues, they no longer have issues. sometimes the best way to advocate for yourself *is* to continue banging the same drum, whether that’s reminding people you are working with a medical issue that can happen to anyone with a spine (a bad back meaning that you have to use a cart to move files, per MK’s example) or a medical issue that primarily happens to people with uteruses (menopause). it sounds like in the letter the boss is already using this to explain her own solutions (writing notes). and i don’t blame her for mentioning it’s her accessibility device here – the optics of being an older woman writing down notes will make people see “that’s the secretary underling” instead of “that’s the boss”, due to many layers of cultural stereotype and bigotry. similar to how unless you remind folks you still need that cart to move files because you have a bad back… somebody will just take it because they think you’re being too lazy and precious.

                  it’s something where you think it’s apples and oranges, but as someone in similar trenches who can speak on the disability wavelength… they’re sadly not far apart. it *is* a way some folks do advocacy, and it is something that it’s useful to consider as advocacy instead of immediately dismissing the idea.

          4. Observer*

            So who decides if it’s “an excuse” and if it’s real or if she’s just forgetting things for funzies? Since the woman having the symptoms can’t be trusted?

            That’s a total straw man. The issue is not whether she has this symptom or not. The issue is that the forgetfulness is a problem that she needs to deal with and not keep on talking about the (apparent) underlying cause. Especially not in a way that paints this as a universal inevitability.

            It’s like the boss from yesterday whose TBI is apparently making her behave very poorly. We can all understand that this is where it is coming from. But it still doesn’t make it OK, and it is stills something that needs to be dealt with.

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        2. Jules the 3rd*

          Why not use it as an explanation?
          I mean, serious question. If, for example, you break a leg and can’t walk without a crutch, you would explain, “I’ll get that letter for you but I need to grab my crutch.”

          I think menopause should be that same level of normal, with memory aids like ‘writing it down’ given the same acceptance.

          This is probably complicated by both the stigma women face for biological processes, and the stigma against mental health impairment, but we need to challenge those stigma, not condemn those who challenge it.

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      2. Indolent Libertine*

        But given that we still live in a world where women are seen as less inherently competent, and that this becomes exponentially more so when “hormones” are seen as being an “issue,” it seems like a terrible idea for women ourselves to be amplifying and normalizing the idea that “woman at given stage of life” = “less capable of performing job functions well.” I say this as a post-menopausal employed woman.

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        1. bamcheeks*

          I think this is going to come down to what we should be changing, though. Like, my goal is not “prove that women are just as good as men”, because I do not believe that men are better than women, and I think the idea of any workers as Consistently Competent is a male-centred fantasy. I would rather change workplaces to recognise that there are multiple physical, emotional and psychological factors that impact people’s work regardless of their hormonal profile.

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          1. Not Australian*

            Drive-by applause for your last sentence, bamcheeks. We are all human, and as such we all have human needs and weaknesses which we hope will be understood by those around us – just as we should do our best to understand theirs.

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          2. Salty Caramel*

            I’d love that but it’s a big ask. Many people do not address emotional or psychological factors in their lives, never mind communicate about them. Men are often socialized not to show emotions that aren’t aggressive.

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          4. MK*

            I understand what you are saying, but I don’t think it exaclty applies here. Behaviour like the one described in the letter is geniounly annoying from whoever it’s coming from.

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          5. Observer*

            I would rather change workplaces to recognise that there are multiple physical, emotional and psychological factors that impact people’s work regardless of their hormonal profile.

            I actually agree with that.

            And I strongly believe that the *best* case here is that this woman is not helping that cause.

            Like, my goal is not “prove that women are just as good as men”,

            Agreed. And I agree that it *should not* be the goal. But the goal is also *not* to make it sounds like “women of a certain age” are universally forgetful (or universally have some feature or other that is unhelpful in almost any area where ability to execute might be an issue).

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        3. Sloanicota*

          Also, I’ve totally heard “mom brain” and “pregnancy brain” too, and now “menopause brain” (and I’m sure “perimenopause brain”!!). At some point we have to figure out how to do the work right? I don’t hear “dad brain” or “male menopause brain” being bandied about this way.

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        4. Jennifer Juniper*

          Thank you! Not to mention that it also trains women to neglect symptoms of what could be a serious medical condition if it’s normalized as period/pregnancy/menopause related.

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      3. Pelvic Floor PT*

        A 2016 study of 212 men and women ages 45-55 published in the medical research journal Menopause. Participants underwent a battery of testing to look at episodic memory, executive function, and semantic processing. Cognitive testing was also used to measure verbal intelligence. The study compared performance between age-matched men and women, and also between women at different stages, before, during, and after menopause.
        Results showed that even WITH the perimenopausal “brain fog” women out performed men in all 3 areas!

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        1. Observer*

          Results showed that even WITH the perimenopausal “brain fog” women out performed men in all 3 areas!

          Interesting!

          Certainly an additional reason to not put down all women in some stage of menopause.

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      4. Dasein9 (he/him)*

        So do a lot of conditions, and yet talking about the others doesn’t get the same amount of attention because they don’t repeat and reinscribe harmful stereotypes.

        Sure, the coworker has the right to talk about her experience. That doesn’t mean she’s not undermining herself.

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        1. MigraineMonth*

          Exactly. Unfortunately, reinforcing this stereotype about menopause (that it affects all women the same way and makes them all less competent) harms women of her age at the company, and probably all the women at her company.

          It isn’t fair. It isn’t the way it should be. Unfortunately, it is the way the world is.

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      6. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        She can own her own symptoms, talk about them, and develop strategies to deal with them – but openly talking about how everyone going through menopause experiences this is likely to be damaging to OTHER women as well, and that’s why this is an issue. Normalizing something like hot flashes, so she always has a cardigan or something, is one thing, since that’s not going to be perceived as impacting her work at most places, but establishing a connection between “women in their late 40s and up” and “forgetful” is not ever going to be good.

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      7. fhqwhgads*

        Sure, but the crux of the problem is as Alison said: the woman saying it is presenting her experience as universal. There’s a difference between “it can cause these symptoms” and “it will and always does”. What the woman in the letter is doing implies the latter, and that’s not cool.

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      8. Clisby*

        Sure, it *can* – but it’s not the universal female experience. I literally did not know I was post menopausal until my doctor confirmed it with a hormone test. I knew my periods had stopped, but the dire tales of hot flashes, night sweats, brain fog? Never happened.

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    3. Sarah*

      To be fair, menopause brain fog is a real thing.

      It does even out once your body adjusts to the hormonal shifts, and you can develop strategies to adapt.

      But we can’t pretend it doesn’t exist, either. I have always had a fantastic memory – I wouldn’t say an eidetic memory, but darn close.

      There was a stretch of time at the beginning of menopause when I couldn’t remember shit. It was kind of scary for someone who had never had memory issues. For a hot minute, I even wondered if I was experiencing early dementia because surely menopause brain fog wouldn’t have THAT dramatic of an effect.

      Nope, that’s all it was. My memory returned to normal at about the same time the hot flashes stopped.

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      1. Butterfly Counter*

        Exactly. My first bout with brain fog was terrifying. I was worried I was having a stroke. I literally couldn’t remember how to make a dinner I’ve made my entire adult life. If anything, how women downplay “brain fog, oops” as a simple lapse in memory is actually what is frustrating me now. I know they do it for the exact reasons OP is complaining about: they don’t want to be seen as less than. But had one older woman framed it as, “Sorry, struggling with brain fog right now. I’ll get the figures to you when it clears,” I’d have been so much less scared.

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        1. anotherfan*

          Personally, i’m not really happy with the ‘all women’ mindset whenever periods or menopause are mentioned. I’d be happier with ‘sorry, brainfog is kicking in, let me write this down’ rather than ‘menopause, brainfog, amirite?’ People say all the time ‘hold that thought, i haven’t had my morning coffee and can barely register where my computer is’ without gender stereotyping themselves. Also — I’m always confused when other women talk about menopause as if, I don’t know, it lasted a week or two. Mine lasted a good decade from the first missed period at 49 to the last of the hot flashes finally petered away. Imagine if I kept saying “oh, menopause brainfog” for 10 years! Especially because brainfog wasn’t a problem for me the way it is for some women so it’s not even something I would have mentioned.

          All that is to say that women get blamed for being “less than” all the time. I agree with the OP that it’s a questionable tactic that her boss has unfortunately fallen into under the perhaps mistaken impression we’re further along in our civilization than we actually are.

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          1. Several Trees*

            Oof – I am in my early thirties and just starting to hear about what’s in store for me in the next decade or so. This is terrifying to hear. Does the brain fog stick around *all the time*? Or is it more like an episodic thing? I feel like I’ve only JUST discovered what my brain can do now that I’m medicated for my ADHD, and I’m so scared of losing my ability to think again.

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            1. Butterfly Counter*

              For me, I’m generally a bit more forgetful, but there are a period of hours that the brain just won’t brain. I’ve only had one or two of the more alarming episodes in the last 6 months.

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      2. HelenaHandbasket*

        This is where I am right now – I write down everything and say things like “Let me just write this down, I need to write everything down because my brain is like a sieve lately.” Not because I want to diminish my capabilities but because I need people to behave differently with me because I don’t know when CRS (can’t remember shit) is going to hit. I can’t remember faces & names at all anymore. I can’t remember names of people I’ve known for years. It’s infuriating. So I do it to let people know if I come back and ask questions, it’s not because I wasn’t paying attention or wasn’t giving this the appropriate attention – it’s because my brain is temporarily underperforming. Also, by being up front about it the acknowledgement hopefully takes away some of the stigma and hushed tones our parents and grandparents took. I’m still awesome, I just can’t remember the word for when you need to do the thing with the other thing… that word.

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        1. Observer*

          I write down everything and say things like “Let me just write this down, I need to write everything down because my brain is like a sieve lately.”

          That’s a much better way to put it. It’s your experience that you are not making universal to any group.

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      3. Irish Teacher.*

        I think the issue is less that she talks about menopause brain fog, which I do think should be highlighted and more that she is implying it happens to everybody.

        The “sorry, brain fog” wouldn’t bother me in the least but “oh, as a woman of a certain age, of course I get brain fog,” does a bit.

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      4. Elizabeth West*

        I didn’t have it when Flo skipped town, but I sure in hell had it before I was diagnosed with thyroid disease. I could fully engage in a conversation about something, then a day later, I’d ask about it as if the conversation never happened. There are other issues I didn’t know about until recently that affect my memory and processing, but back then, if a mysterious force had given me a dollar every time someone said to me, “I told you that already,” I could have retired in luxury.

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    4. HannahS*

      Yeah to your second point–I have a small child and often make comments to my boss or a coworker like, “Sorry, I had a rough night with [child’s name] and I’m a bit slow today,” or “Sorry, my kid is sick so I’m a bit behind on [task] but I’ll get it done tonight.”

      That’s really, really different from saying, “Oh, I’m a mom so I’m tired all the time,” or “I fell behind on my work–it’s a mom thing.”

      In the first example, I’m explaining my behaviour in relation to an event, and that event happens to be related to my kid. In the second, I’m relating my behaviour to my identity as “a mom” and also universalizing it.

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      1. Artemesia*

        Every time that excuse is used, it is added to the pile of ‘why we really shouldn’t put women, and especially mothers, in positions of authority.

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          1. MigraineMonth*

            I’m not certain, but I think Artemesia was agreeing with your strategy. That saying “I’m behind on work because I’m a mom” is what undermines women in the workplace/positions of authority.

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            1. Clisby*

              Yes, “Sorry, my kid is sick so I’m a bit behind on [task] but I’ll get it done tonight.” could come from either a man or a woman.

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      2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        THIS. You hit the nail on the head. One is asking for a reasonable accomodation – hey can you cut me some slack today. Which sure, happy to do it.

        The other is – don’t expect me to do my job I’m just a silly old woman. Hahahahahahaha.

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      3. Guacamole Bob*

        Yes, this! If OP’s boss were saying “give me a moment to write that down, I’ve been having some brain fog lately” or “can you be sure to email that to me so I don’t forget it?” I don’t think it would land nearly the same way. It’s the way the comments make things sound universal that’s so irritating.

        (I use “please email that to me” all the time when people who are sitting at their computers stop me in the hall when I’m on my way somewhere, and I’m not having menopause-related memory issues!)

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        1. Properlike*

          Yes, and if the manager were at all receptive, I would meet with her privately and mention my concern at giving the impression it’s “all women.” Maybe the support group is a good place to discuss how to push back on this, because it really is undermining everyone.

          Reply ↓
    5. Ellis Bell*

      The only reason it’s not a good look is because we live in a sexist, ableist society where we are expected to project perfection and never have an off day, or be affected by medical conditions. It should be perfectly fine to say “Arggh sorry, I’ll get my ADHD strategies back in line” or “Menopause is kicking me in the bum this week”. I know that it’s not okay to say these things, but it should be. I actually think concepts like “silly old lady” are really very sexist, even though as women we’ve necessarily had to internalise those ideas for avoidance and as self protection. I also think OP’s manager has the absolute last word on how open she wants to be about her menopause symptoms. She doesn’t actually owe everyone a certain image, and these are her risks to run.

      Reply ↓
      1. Guacamole Bob*

        For some reason I have a very different reaction to “Menopause is kicking me in the bum this week” than to OP’s example of “Well, I better write that down because as a woman of a certain age, if I don’t I’ll forget it,” but I really don’t mind the former and bristle at the latter.

        I think it’s that one implies that the symptoms are specific to the individual at a particular moment in time, while the other suggests that in general, women between 45 and 60 can’t be expected to remember things.

        Reply ↓
      2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Yea people say that people not hiding their problems or not using the correct wording is the cause of discrimination but even if everyone acted perfectly people would still discriminate

        Reply ↓
        1. Calamity Janine*

          the thing about discrimination is that if it’s a game where the first rule is you always must lose, well… you can try any strategy you like, but the game still has the number one rule that says you can’t win. individual strategy is something that seems like a good solution because that means you can actually have a chance at winning if you just use the right strategy, pull out the right playbook, the perfect words, so on and so forth… but the rules haven’t changed. we’re just players frustrated about what to do on our turns that we cling to an idea of how we can secretly win, even when that’s impossible.

          that’s why this frustratingly has no good solution that’s quick and easy: the game has said women can’t win. that’s the main rule, and we can’t play calvinball so hard we work around it. it’s the rules that have to change.

          but… we’re just players in the game, not the official at Hasbro or whatever writing out the rules for this boardgame. there’s no easy individual action to fix it, because… well, it can’t be fixed like that.

          the game’s just rigged from the start. saying that it’s on individuals to play the game better ends up just being a way to ignore how the rules are rigged. :(

          Reply ↓
    6. Artemesia*

      We are living now in a period where we are told discrimination suits will not be pursued by government and that men are now empowered to discriminate against women and minorities and hire their frat brothers with impunity. I hope this clueless women broadcasting that women are not competent for leadership learns to shut up. I am really appalled.

      Reply ↓
        1. dude, who moved my cheese?*

          To add— this implies “the only way to combat discrimination is to be too perfect to discriminate against, by the standards of those discriminating.” I have to disagree. Paired with “this clueless woman needs to learn to shut up”? Wild.

          A woman saying she needs to write something down because she’s experiencing a temporary medical event is not “broadcasting that women are not competent for leadership.”

          Reply ↓
          1. Ellis Bell*

            “Be too perfect to discriminate against, by the standards of those discriminating”. Absolutely, I’m not falling for that shit again.

            Reply ↓
      2. Perimenopausal*

        This sounds like you’re in the United States. Which, same, things are awful here. But I’m guessing the OP is in the UK by her use of the wording “the menopause”. The political situation is a lot different, and there’s been a big push in the UK recently around menopause awareness. I’ve personally been in perimenopause over 10 years. What I think the woman is doing is trying to normalize her symptoms, and I think she’s brave for doing so. I do think she could make it less universal, because perimenopause and menopause affect people wildly differently. Mine has been terrible, but I’ve asked dozens of women around my age about their experience, and, really, my experience is an outlier. Most people have milder symptoms.

        Reply ↓
        1. Ellis Bell*

          Yeah we have a menopause champion at my job. The kind of comments OP is talking about would be considered very unremarkable, and not entirely serious, at my job. As in, the word is just being normalised by the boss in relation to tiny errors but is not actually or seriously outing herself as useless. Would these conditions of support and normalcy mean the OP or her boss would never face discrimination for being women? Nah, of course not, it’s not a utopia. But everyone is just doing the best they can.

          Reply ↓
      3. I use many names to post here*

        As a longtime reader here, the tone of this comment (on a site where one is not required to register unique screen name post) is something?

        Reply ↓
      4. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        Wow, I don’t think being sexist yourself is helping other women. You are perfectly illustrating how oppressed people tear each other down to prove they are the “good one” to the oppressors. I am appalled.

        Reply ↓
      5. Michelle*

        Welp, as a woman who discusses my menopause as if it’s a normal thing women go thru and not something to hide from the delicate ears of the little menz and the hostile ones of my fellow women, please add me to your “clueless woman who needs to shut up” list. :D

        Reply ↓
      6. Calamity Janine*

        and if we don’t speak up, well, we’ll get to be clueless women who are broadcasting that women aren’t good enough to speak up…

        misogyny is a catch-22 by design. there’s no way to win. it’s not helpful to enforce it by making sure that you’re calling women losers and framing the problem as women needing to shut up. i know times are bad and shit is stressful, and i am stressed too, but this internalized misogyny is just you doing the oppressive regime’s work for them before they even have to lift a finger. you, the person in your own head experiencing this anger firsthand and choosing to place the blame on clueless women, deserve better than that.

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    7. about that*

      I think there’s room for mercy and charity here. The boss is a woman going through menopause. That’s got to be way more uncomfortable than what LW is going through. She probably struggles with feelings of humiliation and disempowerment every day. She’s probably talking her way through this difficult time, as a way to minimize and make sense of these feelings about what’s happening to her. As people often do. Instead of resenting her boss for not menopausing correctly, maybe LW should focus on supporting her in her time of need. LW will be there herself some day, and may find that it’s not as easy as she thinks, to put up a brave front.

      Reply ↓
      1. metadata minion*

        If there’s something that the LW can do *as an employee* the boss should address that, but otherwise “supporting her in her time of need” is not an employee’s job. That’s a job for friends, family, therapists, doctors, pretty much everyone except employees.

        Reply ↓
      2. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

        If it seems like the boss would be open to a conversation, there might be room to say something like, “I’ve noticed you blaming and referring to menopause as a reason to be forgetful. I get that it’s a real condition and you’re experiencing real symptoms, but I’m afraid when you talk about it like that, it diminishes your talents and achievements. Maybe try saying things like ‘I’m going to write that down because it’s important’ or ‘Let’s make sure this is noted in the minutes’ instead?”

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    8. T.N.H*

      I completely agree with you and Alison. I’m currently pregnant so experiencing the other side of this. I absolutely do not have brain fog, fatigue, or other issues. It really bothers me that the expectation seems to be that I’ll be out of commission for 9 months, which is absurd. If someone is dealing with SYMPTOMS that’s what should be addressed. It doesn’t matter if it’s menopause, a cold, a sick puppy etc.

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    10. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      Stop using the word excuse. She is writing things down proactively *while saying this*, so she is not making an excuse for forgetting. She is explaining why she is writing things down.

      I super hate that you even thought, much less said “silly old lady”. It’s only been a few weeks and look – women have started to turn on each other really fast.

      Stop being the watch dog of the oppressor. Stop tearing down other women to protect yourself.

      Reply ↓
      2. metadata minion*

        But why does she need to explain why she’s writing things down? I don’t think it needs to be some super-shameful secret or anything, but writing things down so you remember them is such an incredibly common thing to do in a work setting that I don’t understand why she’s making a point of telling people why she’s…taking notes, like probably half the people at the table.

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    12. Michelle*

      “silly old lady”

      Ok. You come across as ageist and misogynist. Which might not be cool to mention, but I JUST CAN’T HELP MYSELF. Which seems very much like a YOU problem.

      Reply ↓
    13. Jules the 3rd*

      1. Forgetfulness and ‘brain fog’ are very common symptoms of menopause / perimenopause. The onset is sudden, and disconcerting. Manager is talking about tools she uses to deal with that medical issue (‘write that down’).

      Anytime someone abruptly becomes forgetful is a cause for concern and warrants reviewing with a medical person, not dismissal as ‘can happen at any age’.

      2. Is my reading comprehension off or something?

      I did not take the quoted statements as referring to all menopausal / all women of a certain age. I see them as putting the manager’s specific behavior and requirements to a medical reason, menopause.

      It looks to me like Alison (and many readers) are accepting OP’s interpretation of the statements is correct, and I don’t see it. The manager is not saying, ‘I need a pencil, *all* us women of a certain age do”, she’s saying *she* needs one, because of a biological process that she’s dealing with.

      The manager is being open and brave, and this is how change happens. Normalizing memory aids (or wheelchairs, or prosthetics, or any etc) will help other women if they have the same symptoms of this very common biological process.

      Reply ↓
  2. bamcheeks*

    I’m mid-forties and have also noticed a few female bosses who are 5-10 years older than me making these kind of comments too. It’s always been people who are at quite senior levels, and it hits me the same way senior people talking about ADHD, poor short-term memory and dyslexia does. On the one hand, I do think it’s a positive change to recognise that eg. you don’t need to be a great at spelling to be able to think strategically or engage well with clients or whatever. I think it’s good to recognise that people can have quite significant weaknesses in some areas and be very strong in others. On the other hand, I am not convinced it’s coming with similar recognition and support for people with those kind of problems at lower levels. It kind of comes across as, “Phew, I’ve reached the level where I don’t have to pretend I’m good at time-keeping. Great for me, sucks for the rest of you!”

    Reply ↓
  3. a bright young reporter with a point of view*

    Oh, weird. My initial read was that she was making fun of the posters, but I’m sure the LW has a better read than I.

    Reply ↓
    1. Murfle*

      I was getting a very sarcastic sense of things as well. Like, “Oh gee, I better write things down, because needing to do so is TOTALLY A SIGN OF ME EXPERIENCING MENOPAUSE-RELATED COGNITIVE DECLINE, and not actually a normal workplace activity that everyone needs to do.”

      Reply ↓
      1. bamcheeks*

        I have had a couple of managers who said things exactly like this, and it was not sarcastic. So it’s certainly possible, but I wouldn’t say it’s the most likely or only possibility.

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    2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      That is so striking to me. I really want OP to ask her boss if she is being sincere. I know she can’t, but hear me out…it could, with the right finesse, help OP and boss reach a middle ground on this. Boss might be making fun! Boss might not be making fun and just living her life. Boss might be trying to advocate for normalizing human bodies and work and not realize that it is A LOT. Boss might be happy it is A LOT.
      No, OP don’t waste capital or bandwidth on my academic curiosity, but man, I wish you could!

      Reply ↓
    4. Sparkles McFadden*

      I thought making fun of the posters was a distinct possibility but that’s mostly because I’m the sort of person who would sneak into the men’s bathroom and put up posters for erectile dysfunction awareness.

      Reply ↓
    5. OP*

      OP here – she is absolutely not being sarcastic. I’m confident both based on her tone and from having worked with her for years.

      But I appreciate the interpretation suggestion!

      Reply ↓
  4. Apex Mountain*

    I wonder if the fact that there’s a menopause support group is exacerbating this because it might seem like it’s perfectly fine to discuss this in the office

    Reply ↓
    1. pally*

      You might be onto something.

      If I forgot something, then I forgot. Simple as that. It never occurred to me to attribute it to anything. But that’s just me.
      And I’ve been through menopause.

      Reply ↓
    2. Paint N Drip*

      Hmm perhaps! Especially if having a support group is a new experience, maybe the manager hasn’t EVER felt camaraderie like that at work and hasn’t worked out the parameters of where sharing is applicable. Kinda the other side of the coin of a fresh new worker who doesn’t understand we can chat when work is done and the shop is empty, but when customers come in you gotta put conversations or texting or whatever to the side and work.

      Reply ↓
    3. thatsjustme*

      Yeah, that seems like an unusual thing to have at work. To me, that indicates that these discussions might be more appropriate in this office culture than in others. On the other hand, it’s possible that the support group is kind of out of step with the office culture, and that would make the comments out of step too.

      Reply ↓
      1. Arrietty*

        Menopause awareness has become a very common trend in the UK lately (no idea where LW is). I find it a bit odd, despite recognising that it can be a significant experience for people going through menopause. But I’m personally quite open about my medical condition and the way it affects me (not claiming to speak for everyone with the same!) so I guess it’s not dissimilar.

        Reply ↓
  5. H.Regalis*

    I think Alison’s response is very nuanced. This is a situation where there is no good answer. If you’re honest about how something affects you and it feeds into negative stereotypes, then you’re doing something bad because you’re supposed to be perfect all the time to represent all women/queer/trans/POC/whatever people in a way that cishet white men are never expected to do.

    I hate that it’s something where you have to dance to someone else’s tune in order to have the things you need (money, a home, etc.) because you’re constantly having to contort yourself to work with perpetually moving goal posts; but this is a situation where the people you’re bending yourself to fit in with do have real power: Money, laws, etc. I don’t think that can be ignored either. It just sucks.

    Reply ↓
    1. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      I agree with your take. I feel for the manager here. It’s already hard to navigate and if you’re “doing it wrong,” that somehow “gives license to men who hear it to make similar comments/assumptions,” which like… wow. Now she’s responsible for men’s reactions too. It certainly makes the support group and posters seem like fluff if that’s the reality. Which maybe it is. Frustrating.

      Reply ↓
      1. Jennifer Juniper*

        I wouldn’t be surprised if those in the menopausal support group were first on the layoff list if the company has a bad quarter.

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    2. Anonym*

      It may not be perfect, and the catch-22 you describe is very very real, but I think there’s some space to share and normalize your experiences without generalizing to – and potentially undermining – others the way this manager has done. It could be something like, “Ooh, let me write that down, [issue] is forcing me to adjust how I track things.” A little clunky, and I’m sure it could be improved, but I think better than “You know us [demographic], always having [issue]!”

      Reply ↓
      1. Socks*

        Yeah, I think there’s an important distinction between, “Menopause is doing this to me,” and, “Menopause does this to women my age.”

        Reply ↓
        1. H.Regalis*

          I don’t feel quite right about having to specify, “X does this to me” because if I were talking about chronic health conditions, I wouldn’t be like, “IBS/Crohn’s/PCOS/ does this to me but I can’t speak for every single other person with this condition!” because I feel like that’s a given. Of course I can’t speak for every single person with the same condition and it’s ridiculous to have to specify that all the time; but if I’m talking about menopause, then suddenly I have to worry that men will assume I am speaking about every single other person with menopause, like they become totally incapable of distinguishing among people and forget that YMMV and not everyone has the exact same experience?

          Reply ↓
          1. Anonym*

            I think there are a lot of people who don’t understand how varied conditions can be across individuals. My particular frame of reference is ADHD, and people can have very deep misunderstandings of it and sometimes generalize (“Oh, my cousin has that and he’s always crashing cars and getting drunk…”).

            We’re not usually worried about the thoughtful folks who have a good grasp of nuance. It’s the other ones who make our lives difficult.

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          2. metadata minion*

            I don’t think you have to give a lengthy disclaimer — it’s the difference between “ugh, I’m having really bad brain fog today, let me get my thoughts in order” and “as a woman of a certain age, I’m never going to remember that if I don’t write it down!”. The first is describing what you’re experiencing; the second is saying that everyone who fits into your demographic category experiences the same thing, which is extremely not true.

            Reply ↓
        2. sb51*

          I do think this is all exacerbated by the euphemism—but “woman of a certain age” is a long standing expression and interpreting it literally rather than just translating it to “menopause” is not helping. (Yes, the expression itself shows something about how society thinks about menopause, that it’s rude to say the actual word and must be delicately talked around, but someone unconsciously using it is not the same.)

          Reply ↓
      2. AthenaC*

        I like what you did here with focusing on the adaptation rather than the condition – implies to the listener that although things might look a little different, the good results / competency / professional judgment is overall the same.

        Reply ↓
    3. Whomst*

      You articulated this much better than I could have.

      It’s this way about any women’s health issue. “Pregnancy brain” comes to mind, as that’s something I’ve experienced recently. I really was a whole lot worse at my job while I was pregnant! I was much more forgetful and it took me a lot longer to think through problems, which as a software developer is kind of a big deal. This is both an extremely common and not universal experience, and definitely plays into negative stereotypes if you openly acknowledge it. But pretending it’s not happening certainly isn’t going to stop the problem and just made it harder to do what was actually important while all that pretending sapped my limited energy. I’ve had similar issues in the past with endometriosis. (Do you know how hard it is to think straight when your cramps are a 6/10 on the pain scale consistently? And this happens Every Month? It’s not hard to think “maybe they would be better off hiring an able bodied man to do this.”)

      Reply ↓
      1. boof*

        NGL I wouldn’t have called it “pregnancy brain” for me more like “fatigue” but maybe that’s all splitting hairs and/or just my perception of it.

        Reply ↓
      2. Sloanicota*

        I want to take this comment seriously and acknowledge that the juxtaposition between “me, a woman, representing all women who probably all have these bodily lady problems like I do” and “an able bodied man” are not the dichotomy we think they are. It’s easy to think this way because we’re trained to think this way. Any theoretical male hire could have just as many or worse health problems / mental limitations. But of course we think of them as a monolith, the perfect standard, and ourselves in opposition to “them” as less-than. This doesn’t just happen! It is a feature, not a bug.

        Reply ↓
  6. Testing*

    I guess her talking about it all the time might be a backlash against when menopause absolutely wasn’t mentioned at all in any kind of professional setting.

    Reply ↓
    1. Butterfly Counter*

      Yes.

      I’m entering perimenopause and have been struggling with some of it because I had no idea that certain things were associated with it. Yeah hot flashes, yeah irritability, whatever. But certain symptoms are hitting me like a sledgehammer and when I talk to others my age and realize they’re going through the same thing (intense anxiety, brain fog where you are alarmed at how little your brain is working), it’s such a relief.

      I’m very secure in my job, so I’m trying to make it normalized to talk about these symptoms. I had no idea what was wrong with me for so long, I was very much despairing and afraid of what was happening to me. To know that not only am I not the only one that this is happening to, but that it’s actually common, has helped me beyond the words I’m using to try and express it.

      I don’t bring it up every day, or every week even. But I’m not going to pretend it’s not happening to me and affecting me quite a lot. I also try to casually bring up the remedies I’ve learned, again to normalize the conversation.

      The times I bring these issues up, however, are not during times I’m “being professional.” It’s during the more casual chit chat before or after a meeting or in a casual conversation. I wonder if OP’s boss, in trying to cut down the stigma, is trying to shoehorn it into places it doesn’t belong.

      Reply ↓
      1. Anonym*

        Thank you for doing this! I’m not quite at perimenopause yet, but have ADHD, and the casual discussions I’ve had with colleagues over the years on that topic have truly helped me both navigate and feel less alone. I know your sharing has had – and will continue to have – that effect on colleagues.

        Reply ↓
        1. Perimenopausal*

          I’ve heard from a lot of people in my menopause support group that ADHD meds stop working once the hormone swings of perimenopause hit. It has to do with the way estrogen affects dopamine receptors in the brain (not a doctor, so I don’t totally understand it). So if your ADHD suddenly gets worse or unmanageable in perimenopause, hormone therapy can help a lot.

          Reply ↓
          2. Not A Raccoon Keeper*

            Yes, lots of meds can stop working! My friend’s bipolar meds totally stopped, and she had to enter inpatient care (and once stable, was finally diagnosed with ADHD too). This is why I’m pro talking about menopause at work (and everywhere else), since it’s hard to learn this information any other way.

            Reply ↓
      2. Smurfette*

        You are trying to normalise it, which is great. OP’s manager seems to just say things that should rather stay in her head.

        Reply ↓
        1. Sloanicota*

          Yeah if the goal is to normalize it, I think that would need to be done in a thoughtful, nuanced way, like how I’ve seen it recommended that women in leadership position (and particularly allied men in leadership positions) are explicit about work-life balance such as by saying they need a meeting to end at five so they can pick up their kids, thus helping everyone normalize the culture that work finishes on top. Just saying “I forget things because I’m in menopause” doesn’t seem to accomplish that to me.

          Reply ↓
  7. Yup*

    You know what the opposite of talking about menopause and all the many, many difficult issues that come with it is? Colleagues thinking you are completely incompetent because you can’t remember simple details, blank in the middle of a sentence, leave a room because you feel like you’re on fire, have lashes of blinding rage, and the list goes on.

    Menopause DOES make it harder to do even the simplest things. I can’t even remember people’s names who I see every day. Or sometimes my own birthday! Talking about menopause not only normalizes it, it’s a reminder that we’re not suddenly incapable of doing our jobs. There’s a medical, biological reason for what’s happening. It’s not saying women are less than, it’s saying we’re menopausal women and we exist!

    Honestly, this letter is a reminder of just how much society wants women passed a certain age to remain invisible.

    Reply ↓
    1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

      Much support mate. I’m at the ‘getting fines because I forget things’ and ‘can’t remember the words for simple things when talking’ level and it’s absolutely dreadful when the doctors pretty much shrug and say they can’t do anything (I can’t take HRT).

      It’s a hell of a struggle, made even worse if you’re working in a male dominated industry and have had enough of pretending to be ‘one of the boys’ for decades.

      No answers, just support.

      Reply ↓
    2. ZSD*

      To me, the problem is largely that the boss is generalizing from *her* symptoms to *all* women. If she said, “Menopause is affecting *me* in a way that causes me to be forgetful,” that would be less harmful. Menopause affects different people in different ways, and it’s dangerous to spread the idea that *all* people going through menopause will experience x, y, and z symptoms, when someone else might only experience y, and another will experience x and a.

      Reply ↓
      1. Yup*

        Picking at her language as if she needs, in the moment of her brain fog and hot flashes, to be impeccable with her asking for understanding is still part of the issue.

        The letter–and frankly all the responses–should be looking for ways to help this woman work better and more comfortably, including having conversations about how to mitigate these situations so she DOESN’T have to say this every, single time in order for people to get it. All I see are requests for her to shut up and put up.

        Reply ↓
        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          She’s the boss, though — it isn’t the job of her subordinates to manage up to ask her how to mitigate her symptoms. She can definitely come up with solutions on her own to ask her staff to do — e.g. maybe she needs an action item recap at the end of every meeting when she didn’t previously — but expecting them to come up with ideas for solving the problem feels outside their pay grade to me.

          Reply ↓
        2. Smurfette*

          How do you see that playing out though? OP is her report, not her manager, and can’t offer accommodations.

          OP also shouldn’t have to take on the burden of making sure her manager doesn’t forget things – unless she’s her PA which seems obviously not the case.

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      2. Butterfly Counter*

        I can see generalizing being frustrating to people it might not apply to, but I think it’s far more frustrating to not know what is wrong with you, then finding out that your symptoms are actually quite common. It’s true that not everyone likes sandwiches, but let those of us who do talk about it.

        Reply ↓
        1. ZSD*

          That’s why I said it’s better if the boss specifies what’s happening to *her*. *She* likes sandwiches, and sure, she can talk about it. The problem isn’t that she’s talking about menopause at all; it’s that she’s setting up expectations that *all* people going through menopause will have those same symptoms.
          And Yup, I don’t see anyone asking her to “shut up and put up.” People understand that this woman may be experiencing memory loss, brain fog, etc., and yes, that will affect her work. It’s the *way* she’s talking about it, not that she’s being affected.

          Reply ↓
          1. Butterfly Counter*

            But my take on this is that OP doesn’t know whether or not she likes sandwiches yet. She’s judging her on universalizing symptoms for a group of people she doesn’t belong in because she’s just not old enough yet.

            Basically, I think it’s far more common that OP will like sandwiches when her tastebuds mature to that level than she won’t and it might be nice for her to know some common sandwich ingredients and have them be part of normal conversation than feeling uncomfortable because she feels like she’s convinced she absolutely won’t like sandwiches when the time comes.

            Reply ↓
            1. Mel*

              Considering she’s making a post talking about how she doesn’t like it, it’s pretty condescending to just decide that actually it might be nice for her. Clearly, it’s not. Personally the last person I’d want to talk to about menopause and growing up as a woman is my manager at work.

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          1. Butterfly Counter*

            I wouldn’t have gone to a menopause support group at ages 35-40 because I thought it was another 10 years down the road. Had I known that perimenopause starts anywhere from your late 30s onwards (which I didn’t because people don’t friggin’ talk about it), I might have sooner. I didn’t know I didn’t know. Which is why talking about it outside of groups that already self-identify with a problem is so important!

            Instead, I slowly got more and more sure that I was “going crazy” because of my increasing anxiety and panic attacks and seriously wondering if I had early dementia. Learning that almost every other woman my age was experiencing the same thing was a relief, but it made me so mad that it had to be a surprise and almost 10 years of worry and suffering just to find out I’m pretty average.

            Reply ↓
      3. dude, who moved my cheese?*

        I’m reading in this comment the implicit assumption that if a marginalized person can just describe their experiences in the exact perfect way, it will change the opinions of people who are otherwise going to think less of them. I don’t agree with that. Do you really think that if she said “Menopause is making *me* forgetful,” someone who holds conscious or unconscious biases against women/older women isn’t going to make the leap to generalization themselves? Her delivery isn’t going to change how bad-faith people hear her and I think it’s unreasonable and dangerous to demand this woman use absolutely perfect language that addresses all possible uncharitable interpretations.

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    3. Michelle*

      yeah, thanks. as a woman in menopause the comments before this one have been… frustrating.

      also, I’m an avid gamer and regularly in voice with up to a hundred, mostly-young men, and I’m open about menopause and how it affects my game.

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        1. Michelle*

          It’s usually in the context of my forgetting something obvious and being embarrassed about it. One or two have given me a teasing “suuuurrrrre, blame it on the menopause” but for the most part they laugh it off and we move on.

          One time it led to a great discussion with a man about my age who’s wife is going thru it. Nobody asked any follow-up conversations, but everyone listened and nobody was a jerk about it. I felt good about myself after that one – like I’d done something useful for all these young guys by being open about something they might not know much about.

          I’ll be honest, a lot of these comments are really getting to me. It’s hurtful to see all these people basically say to shut up and try to disappear. Women can be so merciless to each other.

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    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think there’s a balance to be had between “here are all my ailments” and “everything is a secret and now you think I’m incompetent” though. Like, a lot of folks with ADHD stuggle with forgetfulness, and I think a lot of people would grow tired of a colleague who constantly said “Whoops, gotta write that down, ADHD!!!” every single time they forgot something. We know you’re going through menopause and we know you have ADHD, we do not need the reminder every time.

      As ZSD mentions, it’s also about the difference between “here’s how it’s affecting me” and “lol this happens to all women!” that the boss is doing.

      I think there’s also a difference between talking about medical stuff with colleagues you’re close with vs people at large. I’ve had menopause conversations with close friends at work, but it’s not something I’d bring up at a meeting any more than I’d bring up a dental appointment.

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      1. Yup*

        This woman didn’t start the job the menopause. She’s going through it. ADHD is diagnosable with accommodations that are understood. Menopause is still not spoken about and makes a competent women appear to be suddenly unable to do their job. If she feels like she’s going to be seen as not a good fit in her position, OF COURSE she’s going to remind people why she’s slipping up and forgetting.

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        2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          Yes, but the *particular way* in which she’s reminding people is going to encourage them to think that *all* people going through menopause are going to experience the same symptoms, and in a context where women face sexism, older people face ageism, and older women get the intersectional more-than-the-sum-of-its-parts combination of the two, that’s going to be harmful.

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          1. Michelle*

            yeah, if only she had mentioned it in EXACTLY THE RIGHT WAY, everyone would have understood and this whole thread would be full of support!

            it’s her own fault, really. we should keep lambasting her, for the sake of women everywhere!

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      2. Ellis Bell*

        So, I think there’s a right way to do this and a wrong way to do this. Like bamcheeks’ example upthread, you can’t just say; “Whoops! I’m a person who’s always late, but for good reason, so deal with it!” Instead it should be more like “Can we schedule these meetings to follow on from lunch?I’m struggling to get through as much lately with menopause symptoms, so I’m constantly overrunning. Lunch would provide a buffer; just don’t be surprised if I turn up with food!” or instead of saying one of OP’s examples “I must have forgotten to do that — it comes with the menopause,” say the other example OP provides: “Well, I better write that down because as a woman of a certain age, if I don’t I’ll forget it”. One is productive and preventative (while still being open) and the other is a bit too dismissive. Also, I will never understand why some neurotypical people take such exception to people needing to write things down (definitely some neurotypical people, not all). Some people take massive pride in “I’ll just remember it” and I kind of dig someone saying that doesn’t work for all of us. As a neurospicy person, apparently the menopause will make my usual symptoms way, way worse but I’m already used to navigating an unruly brain so I’m hoping that will help (and I’m also hoping the concept of an unruly brain will be normalised by then).

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        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          I think I’m struggling with the need to give so much information for simple and direct requests. “Can we schedule these meetings for after lunch?” is a perfectly reasonable thing for a boss to request regardless of why she wants to meet after lunch. And that’s not a “ugh, I don’t want to hear about menopause” thing, it’s an “ugh, can you just get to the point?” thing. You’re the boss, you don’t need to provide justification for basic stuff like this.

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          1. Ellis Bell*

            It’s going to boil down to culture. Sometimes it’s absolutely not going to be relevant, or appropriate. I work in a setting where the very essence of our work is inclusion, and in line with government health initiatives, we have a menopause champion and it’s all very “speak your truth and normalise it for people coming up behind you”. That’s not to say anybody should feel pressure to reveal their medical situations.

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    5. JP*

      Yeah, this letter just makes me feel tired. First women can’t talk about menopause, then we need more discussion around menopause, but not like that because people are getting the wrong idea. Women can never make any mistakes because they’ll be seen as forever incompetent. Women have to work twice as hard as men to be seen as their equal, etc. I get it, sexism is rampant and only getting worse in our current climate, but is playing along with that narrative really the solution here?

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    8. Nozenfordaddy*

      Seriously I just… stopped talking mid sentence the other day. And forgot between having the thought: I need to get a blow dryer and opening an Amazon window what I wanted to buy. I remembered like four hours later when I pushed my hair off my face like: BLOW DRYER!

      Don’t even get me started on managing to be both freezing and sweltering at the same time.

      Menopause (peri and full) is wild.

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  8. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    On reflection, I realise I make these comments probably more than I should! My brain fog is seriously BAD and I’m having to write everything down and put it in a prominent place else I will forget (and the doctors say they can’t help).

    The hot flashes and that are really minor compared to this. This is a ‘struggling with daily life’ level and ‘forgetting words’ stuff.

    Menopause is like menstruation – some have it easy, some have it extremely horrible and nobody should make generic comments about how it is across the board and I’ll keep a closer eye on what I say. I don’t recall saying anything other than ‘sorry, menopausal brain fog, I’ll make a note of that’ though and I certainly wouldn’t bring it up in a team meeting.

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    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I think context matters too! I’d be fine saying this in my (small, all female) team that knows me well. I wouldn’t say it at staff meeting or a board meeting. I think there’s a professional judgement component.

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      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        If I could only say it in front of women I’d be in trouble! (there’s way more white men than any other demographic here!).

        If I really fouled up in an important meeting and the brain completely went into shutdown mode then I guess I probably would be pretty open about the temporary (please goddess let it be temporary) brain fog, but then I’m at a part of my career where I honestly do not care what the men think of me anymore.

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    2. deesse877*

      I appreciate this comment, and I think it’s worth underlining how one can end up over-mentioning it simply because it’s a new and disorienting experience. People really aren’t well-informed on the specifics at all, including those who experience menopause.

      I would also emphasize what others have said, that there is no way to discuss menopause without attracting misogyny.

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    3. Msd*

      Are you on HRT? It was demonized for a number of years and left lots of women needlessly suffering. Current studies and new guidelines now say it’s safe and effective.

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  9. Dust Bunny*

    I’m all for normalizing discussion of various conditions that affect women/people with biologically female organs, but this is not the time or the place. It’s basically another form of saying you have “mommy brain”.

    I had a really rough week last week–don’t ask–and I work in an all-woman department in a woman-heavy discipline and this is still not something that could appropriately be brought up all the time. Eventually, my supervisor, who is another middle-aged woman who is probably going through some of the same physical nonsense that I am, would tell me to dial it back and refocus on my job, the needs of which have not changed.

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  10. Observer*

    I’m going to disagree with Alison a bit here. Yes, part of it is the sexist culture we are in. But even without that, her comments are out of line. Because the universal way she’s framing it is unfair.

    I’m not a big fan of any of it, not from the men or from her. But there is a a difference between “I’d better make a note or I’ll forget”; “I’d better make a note because XX condition (age, menopause, etc) is having an effect on my memory”; “As a woman of a certain age”; and “As a woman with menopause”. That last one is the biggest problem because she’s basically saying that *all* women are going to hit this problem that men just don’t have. Which really is off.

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    1. Cupcakes are awesome*

      I agree! It would be different if she was just talking about her own menopause. Generalizing and fronting it with “women of my age / a certain age” pulls all other women into that category, even if its just that manager’s opinion. She shouldn’t be speaking for all women.

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    2. Ellis Bell*

      Isn’t that a bit like saying Not All Menopausal Women, though? She is simply saying that this is a common and unremarkable thing that happens to scads of menopausal women. As in, not just to her, the lone unfortunate weirdo. It should be common sense that not everyone in a demographic will experience something just because it’s very, very common. If I said, “”As someone who’s on her period, I’m in excruciating pain”, that doesn’t mean it can be extrapolated to all menstruating women, or even assumed to be a monthly occurrence for me. I definitely think you would know if you were in such an unsafe environment that any light utterance about (key demographic) will be pinned on you all as an unavoidable stereotype. I’ve definitely been in those unsafe environments, but I’ve also been in ones where you can just be real about your actual life without worrying about odd assumptions.

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      1. Observer*

        Isn’t that a bit like saying Not All Menopausal Women, though?

        No. It’s the reverse. Because while it’s fairly common, it’s not close to universal. And anyone painting that way is doing others a disservice.

        t should be common sense that not everyone in a demographic will experience something just because it’s very, very common.

        Except that she’s not saying that “it’s very common” (and very, very is almost certainly an overstatement). She’s framing it as something that is simply a part of this. Not one of the things that often happens.

        <IIf I said, “”As someone who’s on her period, I’m in excruciating pain”, that doesn’t mean it can be extrapolated to all menstruating women,

        Disagree with that completely. What’s worse, in a case like this, it makes it harder for people who have that kind of pain to find out what’s going on. Because “all women” (or the vast, vast majority) experience this and it’s SO normal that there is no way that it’s a signal of an issue. Talking from experience.

        I’ve also been in ones where you can just be real about your actual life without worrying about odd assumptions.

        What is “odd” is assuming that people are going to read “this happens to women” as actually meaning “this happens to a lot of women.” Those are two very different statements.

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  11. Ann O'Nemity*

    The manager’s comments could be reinforcing workplace sexism by making it seem like menopausal women are less capable, which might give male colleagues an excuse to doubt them. But at the same time, the LW is holding their female boss to a higher standard than their male coworkers—they admit that when men make similar comments about aging, it doesn’t bother them. That’s a double standard, likely because women already have to fight harder to prove their competence. It makes sense to be frustrated, but expecting women to be extra careful with their words while giving men a pass still reinforces bias. The comment about younger women not “blaming” their periods* is also unfair—it implies menopausal women are making excuses rather than managing real challenges. Instead of focusing on how women talk about menopause, the real issue is making sure conversations about health don’t lead to assumptions about competence.

    (*The reality is, younger women also experience real struggles with their periods, from debilitating cramps to migraines to brain fog. Many do “deal with it and move on,” but often because they feel pressured to, not because it’s inherently the best or only professional approach. The idea that the “right” way to handle a health challenge is to stay silent reinforces the very stigma that menopause awareness efforts are trying to break.)

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    1. Bella*

      I was going to agree with that last part. When I get absolutely crippling period pains I don’t ‘deal with it and move on’, I go to my manager and say ‘I have period pains so bad that I can’t function and need to step back for a bit’.

      I think the coworker avoiding generalisations is a good thing, which Alison picked up on, but also if this woman is genuinely going through symptoms that cause her to have really bad brain fog or the like, she shouldn’t be judged for being honest that menopause is why she’s experiencing this.

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      1. Observer*

        I agree with this.

        Saying that “Menopause is affecting me in this way, and this is what I am doing” is one thing. What’s bugging me is not that menopause is being mentioned – everyone is an adult here – but the generalization of the experience.

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    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      To your last point, there are several (I think) countries that are now legislating menstruation leave as a legitimate thing people are entitled to take for when the pain is really bad. So LW’s assertion that people just suck it up and deal with it may be true of their experience, but there’s definitely labour movements elsewhere in the world where they’re trying to make that not the default behaviour.

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  12. Commuter*

    I felt the same way about a former colleague who was pregnant. I had not yet been pregnant when this happened, but her repeatedly blaming her forgetfulness and inability to complete work on her pregnancy loudly, often, and in front of others made me feel some type of way about how it reflected on all women in the workforce.

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    1. bamcheeks*

      how it reflected on all women in the workforce

      “One woman said X and that reflects on all women” is really a function of how you perceive women, not a truth about what she said. It’s “you suck at math / wow girls suck at math” thinking.

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      1. blueberry muffin*

        Your comments have been so on point!

        I am a woman of a certain age and the whole letter rubbed me wrong.

        The idea of that one person speaking on a subject speaks for a whole group or setting up the expectation for the whole is so odd to me. It doesn’t allow grace for not articulating an idea perfectly at al times. I am disappointed at many of the comments I’ve seen thus far.

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        2. metadata minion*

          But if you say “as a woman of a certain age”, you *are* speaking for the group. At least, that’s how I’ve always interpreted phrases of that sort.

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      2. Be Gneiss*

        Yes, I never see “Tom talks with his mouth full in meetings” translate to “men in general have no manners and that’s why men shouldn’t be allowed to meet with clients.”

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        1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          Point One: sexism means women will be generalized about more than men will.

          Point Two: I’ve also never seen “Tom” say (“Yeah, sorry I’m talking with my mouth full, you know how us guys are”).

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        2. fhqwhgads*

          I read it more as “Tom talks with his mouth full in meetings” does not translate to “men in general have no manners”, but if every time Tom talks with his mouth full in meetings he says “well, I’m a man so of course I have no manners” is not an appropriate thing for Tom to say.

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    2. Bella*

      Out of genuine curiosity, what would you have rather she done? I understand sometimes these points can be made in a more work-appropriate fashion, but if your pregnancy does affect your concentration levels, it’s shouldn’t be up to the pregnant person to underplay the causes of it just because some sexist idiots will make the swooping ‘all women = all pregnant = all inferior workers’ generalisation.

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      1. boof*

        NGL I prefer to couch things in slightly more universal terms – not that I’m hiding the pregnancy but I’d prefer to say “sorry struggling with fatigue” rather than “Sorry pregnancy brain!” constantly because I think a lot more people understand/relate to the fatigue, even if the pregnancy is obviously causing the fatigue (and thus fortunately the fatigue has an expected end date :P)

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      2. NotAnotherManager!*

        In my situation, it was the pregnant person making these statements and then trying to enlist me (also pregnant) in validating them that all pregnant women felt that way and should not be expected to take on a full workload or be in control of their behavior towards colleagues. I didn’t even tell anyone I was pregnant the second time until it was unavoidable because I got tired of the presumption, by both men and women, that I could no longer do the complex, fast-turn work that had always been part of my portfolio – the shock when I delivered a big project on schedule and under budget in my 7th month was palpable, and I’ve had my fill of patronizing comments for a lifetime.

        So, yeah, other people can live in an idealized world where comments like LW’s bosses don’t matter, but that’s not the real world, especially in the US as it becomes increasingly hostile to women.

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      3. Commuter*

        I appreciate thinking through that question. I think the root of it might be that, perhaps different from this letter, this coworker in particular was pretty bad at her job in general and that wasn’t exclusive to when she was pregnant. Then she was pointing to her pregnancy (a state that I/others may experience sometime) as having caused her problems. I have since been pregnant and in the workforce and I think in her shoes I would have said things like “Oh sorry, feeling tired today.” rather than talk about “mommy brain” or “pregnancy brain”. I mean daddy brain isn’t even a phrase which just shows how deeply entrenched some of these assumptions are in our society.

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    3. a human*

      Came here to mention this too! I never know what to say when colleagues talk about “pregnancy brain” or “mommy brain.” My workplace is super understanding of health conditions but because of all the sexist baggage in the general culture around these topics, it just feels like…. we should try not to reinforce harmful stereotypes? It may depend a lot on the workplace culture though. In a different job, I once had a vendor say “oh she’s dropping a lot of balls right now because she just got back from mat leave,” and that definitely felt more like a negative observation rather than a reminder to be understanding/empathetic. I think if someone said something similar in my current job, it would be more of a suggestion to give someone a little extra time while they were making a big transition.

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  13. Michelle*

    So from these comments: As a woman in menopause, should I be pretending I’ve just suddenly gone stupid when I’m suffering brain fog? So as not to bother any men or hamstring any other women?

    This will be a fun 10 years or so! But I guess as long as everyone around me is comfortable that’s what matters.

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    1. Yup*

      This. The comments about older woman and pregnant women here (read: women not in the category of desirable) are really… something else.

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    2. nnn*

      How are you getting that from “it would be better not to act as if your individual symptoms are universal to all women”?

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      1. Butterfly Counter*

        Because they’re common. Very common. Just because you don’t have them yet doesn’t mean you won’t. And the culture of not talking about it just makes those of us who do experience these incredibly common symptoms feel sick, crazy, or like we might have a serious medical problem.

        It was helpful to me as a pre-teen to know that a lot of girls have cramps during their period. Therefore, when I got cramps, I didn’t go to the hospital because they hurt so much I thought I might be dying. I knew, oh, these are those awful cramps that everyone was talking about.

        Not all teen girls got cramps. Good for them. But they’re common symptoms.

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        1. Sloanicota*

          Well, yes, but I’m not sure that means we need more visibility about menstrual cramps in all situations. We need to get the word out but maybe not everywhere, all the time. And this office already has a menopause support group so it’s not like they’re hiding the issue. I have mixed feelings here.

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          1. Butterfly Counter*

            No one is saying everywhere all the time. There’s going to be some trial and error, especially since older women don’t really have the same kind of connected friend groups they have in elementary school.

            I teach and I wouldn’t announce to my class, “Sorry, due to menopausal brain fog, I won’t be grading your exams until tomorrow.” I’d just say, “You’ll have your grades online tomorrow.” But I might mention during a shared walk to class with a colleague, “Ugh, the brain fog meant that there was no way I was getting through 60 essays last night. Guess I’m working this weekend!”

            Not everyone is going to be on the same page as what is professional as this becomes more common. That’s okay. I’d prefer we err on the side of talking to much because the commenters telling women just to shut up just means I’m going to talk about it more.

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    3. MM*

      It has been 7 years now that I average 5 hrs of sleep – due to peri/menopause. That alone causes brain fog and forgetfulness. Popping out of bed completely awake at 1am 3-4 nights a week, for example.

      I work with all men. I am known for my memory, so when I respond to a question saying I’ll have to look that up and get back to you, they were shocked.

      At their shocked look I simply said menopause.

      I refuse to not talk about it as it should be normalized.

      And btw a few of the guys then started a conversation about the symptoms their wives/girlfriends are having, and for once these guys were sincere.

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      2. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        Popping out of bed completely awake at 1am 3-4 nights a week, for example.

        THAT’S why I keep waking up at 1am?! I honestly did not know that was a menopause thing.

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          1. Jennifer Juniper*

            I apologize. I wasn’t trying to be misandric. I assumed that men and women would react with disgust or contempt if a woman referred to her period during a gaming session. I was raised that mentioning anything below the belt was inappropriate – and that includes periods.

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          2. bighairnoheart*

            There’s really no need to defend men here (or anywhere else on the internet). I think they’re doing just fine as a whole without the extra advocacy!

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        3. Michelle*

          I’m in the US as well. And I’ve said this upthread but I’m a hardcore gamer and have brought up menopause brain and other menopause symptoms, several times, on a discord with a hundred mostly-male other gamers. Nobody clutched their pearls. Nobody told me to step back from a difficult role because my lady brain couldn’t handle it. If anyone thought I was out of line, he read the room and kept it to himself. Once it got a dude talking about how menopause was affecting his own wife.

          We don’t have to treat men like blushing virgins. We sure could stand to be nicer to other women tho, instead of telling them to STFU for the sake of our manly betters.

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      4. misspiggy*

        I think you’ve summed up the problem. How does OP’S boss get out of this trap? She mentions menopause when she has a lapse, and potentially there are long term reputational effects. Or she doesn’t mention menopause and gets unceremoniously sacked or PIP-ed. I’d choose the first option, and have had to many times in the last few years.

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        1. Observer*

          No, she can mention that “I’m having some memory issues”. Or she can mention “I’m having this menopause symptom.” It happens. Just don’t generalize it to “all women”, which is more or less what she’s doing.

          Here is the thing. In addition to it being a problem for women in general, it could come and bite her. Because if someone knows a woman in any stage of menopause who is *not* having that symptom, they could easily see her as making excises. Whereas “I’m having the symptom” allows for different experiences.

          Been there, done that with *extremely* heavy and painful periods. One of the things that created some skepticism about this was language like this. Because the minute you see women who do *not* have excruciating pain, that means that it’s not something that one needs to expect that women are going to experience.

          It’s a trap that shows up with almost all generalizations of this sort. If you say that “this is common” then reasonable people understand that finding examples of this thing NOT happening doesn’t mean anything. Whereas “This always / never happens” means that a single incident of “this thing” proves the statement to be incorrect.

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    4. NotAnotherManager!*

      Here’s the problem. Everyone has stuff going on – personal/family mental/physical health, life circumstances, lots of uncertainty in the US about the current political climate/economy/job situation – any of which can be a reason that job performance would suffer or push work onto another member of the team. It’s easy to consider our own personal situation, but, holistically, who ends up accountable and ends up doing the work that other people have accommodations around or are struggling with? Everyone can’t have a work-impacting issue all at the same time and still get stuff done, at work and just general life stuff. (My kids care even less about *why* I forgot to sign their form or send in their camp deposit than my coworkers do that I forgot to circulate a deck after the meeting.)

      I’m not unsympathetic. Perimenopause sucks, and I have never in my life before had mood swings, and they are terrible. But they’re also not an excuse for lashing out at the team member who used to be just frustrating and is now just rage-inducing. I sleep terribly and have come to rely heavily on reminder apps and calendars to keep my shit together. But other people exist and they don’t just exist to fill in the gaps where I used to be because I’m struggling. They’re struggling, too, it’s just with something different.

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  14. Coffee Protein Drink*

    Menopause was the cause of thermostat wars in one office I worked. Because several of the women in higher positions were at that certain age, they were constantly turning the a/c on to compensate for their hot flashes and the hell with the rest of us. I had to go outside to get my hands warm on a regular basis.

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    1. Smurfette*

      This is one of the reasons I’m still working from home (I’m fortunate to have the option).

      Our open plan office has a centrally controlled air con which is comfortable for most people, but I feel as though I’m in a sauna. Sometimes I feel the backs of my hands sweating.

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    2. Always Hot*

      The thing with thermoset wars is that people can add layers at work, but can only take off so much. One more pro of WFH

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    3. NotAnotherManager!*

      I don’t think I’ve ever worked in an office where there were not thermostat wars. Shoot, the only time my spouse and I agreed on the thermostat setting was when I was pregnant and running really hot.

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  15. Smurfette*

    I find this really odd and it would make me uncomfortable. I’m a menopausal woman with ADHD. I don’t repeatedly tell people that I need to write things down because menopause or I doodle during meetings because ADHD. I just do what I need to do, in order to be functional at work.

    I’m definitely on the “undersharing” end of the spectrum but I do believe that this type of thing can be discussed and supported in an appropriate forum such as the support group.

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  17. toolegittoresign*

    I think there’s a difference between being open about something like menopause or ADHD and talking about it too much.
    If a coworker and I are standing in a hallway and they start to talk about a task I need to work on and I do not have any way to take notes in the moment, it makes sense to say “Oh, hold on, can we move to my desk for this so I can take notes? I want to be sure I remember what we discuss. Just something I know that helps me.”
    If this keeps happening, then it makes sense to say “Sorry — can we go to my desk or yours? We keep having these conversations in the hall, and with my (menopause, ADHD, etc.) I really need to write things down so I won’t have to ask you about it again later.”
    Then, if it keeps happening anyways, escalating to HR and the boss to get an accommodation on the books makes sense.

    I have narcolepsy. It’s very misunderstood. I do, on rare occasions, have to ask for accommodations at work. But I do not talk about it constantly as I know it would end up looking like I was reducing myself to a diagnosis. I am open about it in that, when having personal conversations with coworkers or if the subject of sleep comes up, I might mention it. I am open about it in that if I am feeling a sleep attack coming on, I will say “Sorry, I just need to stand up and move around a little. I have narcolepsy and this will help me stay focused.”
    What would be odd is if every time someone books a meeting with me and I have to say “hey, I have two hours of meetings right before this, can we book it at 2:15 so I have a quick break between?” I bring it up.
    Lots of people need breaks between meetings. Lots of people have to write things down to remember them. Lots of people can have a low productivity day or week for a myriad of reasons. Focusing too much on the “why” makes it weird for everyone and draws attention to something that they probably otherwise wouldn’t even notice. I get it, it comes from a place of anxiety because you yourself know your productivity is not what it was and dealing with a disability (temporary or chronic) takes a big toll on your mental health.

    It’s best to think about it like if you had a small stain on your shirt and you’re walking around your office. You know the stain is there, so you’re hyper-aware of it… but chances are most other people aren’t even looking at you long enough to notice, and even if they do, they probably don’t care. If you go around stopping every person to say “I am so sorry about the stain on my shirt” you are being way more disruptive than your stain ever would have been.

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  18. RagingADHD*

    I think how this comes across depends a lot on whether your boss is actually effective at her job. If she is well known to be very on top of things and a high performer, it demonstrates that her inner feeling of struggling is not in fact holding her back, or that occasionally forgetting to do something minor isn’t causing problems.

    And I didn’t see anywhere in the letter that the things she mentions have caused real-world problems at work for her or for other people. Just that she talks about it.

    I have heard a number of high-performing women in senior positions joke (occasionally) about hot flashes or feeling scattered. It didn’t seem to harm their careers, and as I have seen the proportion of senior executive women grow in various industries, there seem to be more opportunities and support for women at all stages of life, not less.

    This is a complicated topic, because while it is icky for a stereotype to be reinforced, it is also icky to police a woman talking about a very normal, common part of life. It is likely that anyone who has a sudden drop in their hormones (at any age, for any reason) is going to feel symptoms similar to menopause and need to find coping strategies at work, and for the majority of women that will occur in a certain age range.

    If she’s coping well and using supports and strategies, she may feel like she’s setting a good example that this stigmatized phase of life doesn’t actually mean people are less effective, and for others on how to navigate it. That may or may not be the actual impact, but it could be part of her motivation.

    Reply ↓
  19. Gray Lady*

    I’m somewhat surprised that Alison didn’t mention that the boss wasn’t merely “being open” about menopause; she’s using it as a crutch. It’s not just about whether it lands differently for a woman to lean on specifically female issues, or that it reflects badly on women by setting low expectations, it’s that nobody should do it for any issue. A frank admission that you sometimes have health-related issues with your work is different from chalking up every slip to the issue, or pre-emptively letting yourself off the hook by constant reminders to everyone that it’s an issue whenever they might be forming expectations about your doing something.

    Reply ↓
  20. Annony*

    I actually disagree with part of what Alison said.

    “It’s also true that people should be able to talk about what they’re experiencing, and in theory it’s a good thing for people to feel comfortable talking about challenges associated with health or aging or all sorts of other things. ”

    In some situations it is absolutely true that people should be able to talk about their problems more than they do now, but I do not have the capacity to hear the woes of every single person. I had a boss who told me EVERYTHING she went through both medically and in her personal life and I highly resented the fact that I was trapped into listening to her complain so often. A boss complaining to a subordinate is not appropriate. Period. I don’t care if it is menopause, chemo, a break up, ADHD, ect.

    It is ok that we as a society do not view it as acceptable to openly discuss medical issues at work. “I need to write that down so I don’t forget” or “Sorry, I forgot” is enough. I don’t need the reason.

    Reply ↓
  21. Abigail*

    I don’t like hearing details about medical issues at work.

    I fully support universal healthcare, EAP’s, FMLA, I support a society that allows people to meet their healthcare needs.

    That doesn’t mean your health needs to be discussed everywhere and all the time.

    For an example, somebody putting on their calendar that they will be out for a week for a knee replacement is fine. Moving some furniture around so they can access their desk with crutches, fine. Telling me about the surgery or recovery is not something I want to hear at work.

    I am not saying nobody should ever discuss menopause or knee replacements ever. I am saying discretion is not the same thing as muzzled.

    Reply ↓
  22. SunnyShine*

    As a manager, I use to have people tell me about the most important things at the most random times. I have ADHD, dyslexia, and am going through perimenopause. I have to write it down. My requests for texts, e-mails, or notes went unheard. So now I do a little show with my handy dandy notebook and make the person wait a couple of seconds while I write it down.

    Reply ↓
    1. Anonym*

      ADHD and I do the same. Let me take one moment to write it down so it doesn’t get lost. People don’t seem to mind, and if anything, I’ve noticed some people seem to appreciate that what they’re saying is being taken seriously.

      Reply ↓
    2. Ellis Bell*

      Oh, the person who tells you something critical in the hallway when you’re on your way to the important thing! Or the all-staff talkathon meeting which is just a brain-and-ears disabler when they totally could have put it in a nice five point email. A ready made to-do list! I like your notebook idea; for years I would forget to take one with me on my travels, and dreamed about one of those old timey dance cards that dangled off your wrist. I’ve developed the habit of carrying my planner everywhere; I now keep my must-haves in it, to increase the likelihood of picking it up.

      Reply ↓
  23. FirstnamelastnameUK*

    This might be one of those things where the Atlantic is an ocean rather than a pond.

    In the UK public sector there has been a renewed effort to talk about the menopause and as a result I sometimes hear things like this in the office. Its always taken it as a light hearted comment by people referencing the ‘current initative’, in the same way that when we were urged to get away from a screen for a few minutes on a regular basis I would regularly hear people reference that.

    Remember, for every time you see a poster /email etc about a workplace initiative, your manager has probably had it three times from senior management. It is likely in her subconscious in a way that just comes out every now and then. Also some people just natter away whilst they do things like make notes with no particular intent.

    Unless she seems genuinely frustrated I’d guess it is a fairly lighthearted meaningless small talk, chatting away about the current initiative whilst she is making a note.

    Reply ↓
  24. Apex Mountain*

    It does seem a little contradictory if there are support groups and posters all over the place about menopause but god forbid someone actually discusss it!

    Reply ↓
    1. Ellis Bell*

      The most ironic thing to me is that this clearly has the support of management, and is coming from a place of power; it’s a boss modelling to a report that gender and health issues won’t make you less valuable in the long run. However the OP is not taking any such reassurance from a woman and is more worried about what the random men will think! I appreciate it’s a male dominated industry… but we can’t just give up to prospective fears in advance.

      Reply ↓
  25. Sati*

    I suspected the comments on this would be a fairly clear split between people who have gone (or are going) through menopause, and those that haven’t, and mostly they are what I expected.

    I think Alison’s answer was good, and I appreciated the nuance. Ultimately my thoughts are similar – yes, it’s fine/normal to feel uncomfortable, but you probably have to suck this one up. And if the worst your boss does is show a bit too much openness and compassion for a medical issue – even her own! – then, well, that’s probably a pretty good work environment.

    FWIW, I am finding that perimenopause – I think I am about halfway through – is very much like trying to function every day after downing 2-10 shots of strong alcohol, while trying to pretend you’re not affected by it. Some days are 2-shot days, some are 10-shot days, but every day for the last few years has felt like I’m trying to get through while being quite drunk and pretending that I’m not. Of course, my experience is not everyone’s, and it’s possible that I’m at one extreme end of the spectrum with symptoms (as I was with period symptoms; I am the only person I know personally who had to deal with collapsed lungs on a fairly regular basis!) but it has not been easy. I’ve had concussions that didn’t wreck my ability to think this much.

    Reply ↓
  26. Ferla*

    I am with the LW on this one. I would not want to hear those comments because they impact negatively on perceptions of all women in specific age groups and their ability to perform at work, and maybe reinforce perceptions about all women being less capable “because hormones”. Some women may have menopause symptoms, some may not, some may prefer to manage them privately. It would be nice if we were in an environment where there was no stigma associated with women’s health and no career disadvantages with being female. But that isn’t reality so I think it would be better if the manager showed more awareness on the impact of her words. If she wants to share her personal experience, she has the right to do that even if it affects others, but it should be about her experience rather than generalizing as though she is speaking for all women. I wouldn’t want to hear older people (men or women) talking about cognitive decline either, since again it affects perceptions of everyone in a group which is already subject to bias.

    I know this doesn’t help the LW who isn’t in a position to change her manager, but maybe it helps to know that others see the situation in the way you do. (And I am going through menopause and experiencing its effects.)

    Reply ↓
    1. Apex Mountain*

      I don’t really see a big difference between speaking for herself and generalizing. She was talking about her own symptoms anyway. Anyone suddenly moved to think all women have job related issues because of one woman’s situation was probably there already

      Reply ↓
    2. peter b*

      I’m flabbergasted at comments like these that say this woman’s at best imprecisely phrased explanations of a solution to the problem she’s disclosing (memory issues on account of menopause leading her to use notetaking to address it!) are the cause of others being sexist to other women? In what world is it this woman’s fault and not the sexist people’s responsibility for their own actions?

      Reply ↓
      1. RagingADHD*

        In the world we live in, sexism is always women’s fault. (/S, obviously).

        One of the reasons the patriarchy is so robust and self-perpetuating is that men need to do so little to keep it going, and a lot of them can afford to just be oblivious to it altogether. We women are always very busy policing each other over what we think the men think, and making what the men think the most important value — whether that’s reinforcing gender / modesty norms, or criticizing each other for being insufficiently feminist.

        If we all started cutting each other as much slack as men do for each other, I believe astonishing things would happen.

        Reply ↓
  27. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

    It’s really fascinating how many people are totally ignoring the fact that the OP stated she’s not going to talk to the boss about the comments and instead is trying to figure out if she’s wrong to focus in on these comments and/or how to frame them mentally so she’s not as bothered. This feels like one of those things you just have to mentally decide you’re not going to be bothered by (this is just Mildred’s schtick; this is sexist and I should get over it; I wouldn’t have this reaction to someone with cancer saying it; etc) and then move on. Everyone debating the merits about whether or not it makes the manager look professional or not; if the comments are sexist; etc. are ignoring that that would be the manager’s issue- not the OP’s. And at this point, the manager feels comfortable saying these things around the OP for whatever reason- whether she’s aware of how she’s coming across or not.

    Reply ↓
    1. bamcheeks*

      But there are a lot of people here hearing, or making, similar comments at work — unsurprisingly, since women aged 35-55 are probably a disproportionately large sector of the readers of this blog! I think it would be very surprising if it didn’t generate broader discussion about how people experience and talk about menopause in the workplace.

      Reply ↓
  28. E*

    She could be saying it to help herself cope with it, like a self depreciating joke. As someone just starting the perimenopause journey, the symptoms can be terrifying (like sudden panic attacks!) and you can feel a little out of control. Everyone copes with the changes in their own way.

    Reply ↓
  29. dude, who moved my cheese?*

    From the headline I really didn’t expect “being too open about menopause” to just mean “occasionally mentioning she’s forgetful because of menopause”!

    Reply ↓
    1. Butterfly Counter*

      Yes. I was expecting to hear about vaginal dryness/changes in discharge/differing body odor/washing sweaty clothing or linens/etc.

      Reply ↓
  30. Calamity Janine*

    for what it’s worth, it may help to reframe what she’s doing in your head as so: “that’s not a choice that i would be comfortable with, but it’s what she prefers.” disclosing medical conditions is often something where this attitude will come up. and, well, the point of what we’re striving for in acceptance for these things is that people get the agency to make that choice… or not make that choice! it’s about having said choice.

    if you want another way to cultivate sympathy for her – which i recommend mainly to reduce your own annoyance with this – consider that menopause, like many other health conditions, is something we fundamentally can’t control. but humans like controlling things because that means we have agency. she wants that agency. so she does what she can do, like putting up posters in the bathroom. yes, she’s living that adage of when you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail. (and, well… you can’t control the rampant misogyny in the world, so a problem that’s closer to home with just one person doing it – tantalizingly close to a problem you could directly influence! – becomes a lightningrod. it’s not a fault on your part. this is something i consider a known bug in the human operating system.)

    health concerns are especially where you’ll find this pattern, and i say that as someone with a bad shoulder who constantly pesters her friends to stretch their arms, floss those nerves running down to their hands, and strengthen their rotator cuffs while improving their posture. (and to prove my point: i will also argue i am totally right on this one. slouch check y’all! i know at least someone out there is shrimping in their chair!) so… it’s a very very easy sort of thought trap to get stuck in.

    if you need to make a bit of peace about this, it’s worth examining through these lenses.

    mind you, it’s up to you if you need to do that to begin with. you’ve got valid reasons to be aggravated, because the patriarchy sadly will lump all women together so i can’t strictly say that she’s only going to affect herself and not you so don’t worry about it. but if you’re looking at this answer going “oh good it’s not just me! …but i can’t really think of any way to address this problem, short of a magic brew which will banish the patriarchy and misogyny in the minds of all it touches and also me hiring several pilots to crop-dust the entire world with said brew. so i think i just need to accept this as part of the grand tapestry of life even though it aggravates me”, well, perhaps reframing it will help a little. or maybe i will simply make this LW laugh with metaphors tortured while-u-wait, either one works

    Reply ↓
  31. Harper*

    Can we talk about how hard this is, though? I’m 47 and somewhere on the late perimenopause/menopause spectrum. The forgetfulness and brain fog are real and pretty significant. My anxiety spikes on a seemingly monthly cadence with no actual period to attribute it to. I’ve recently come to the realization that I’ve been so checked out of my work, because it has become a monumental challenge to focus on details and really pay attention when people are talking to me about complex topics. I’ve also become clumsy AF, constantly running into things and dropping things. I don’t want to talk about menopause at work or make comments that could affect how women are viewed in general. But the challenges that come with it are very real and very disruptive when they’re at their worst. And yet, it often feels not specific and severe enough to warrant a big picture conversation with my boss and ask for accommodations. I swear, it feels like nature never gives women a break.

    Reply ↓
    1. dude, who moved my cheese?*

      No, I’m sorry, you are not allowed to talk about it because it won’t align with the idea of perfection set up by people looking for an excuse to discriminate against you— and we know the only way to combat discrimination is to be too perfect to discriminate against.

      Reply ↓
    2. Perimenopausal*

      It’s SO hard. All of your symptoms are really common to perimenopause. For me, the insomnia got so bad at one point that I could sleep maybe an hour a night. I had a nervous breakdown from lack of sleep and needed to take a couple weeks off work. Three years later, I’m doing better but still have trouble sleeping when my hormones go wonky. Working from home has been such a help because I can go lay down for half an hour in the afternoon. I don’t have to pretend to my coworkers that I’m OK.

      Reply ↓
      1. Tradd*

        I’ve been in menopause for about 8 years. I had such bad periods that frankly menopause has been a delight, except for two things. I am always nearly hot. I always ran hot, but this is worse. I have a fan going at work year round. Coworkers don’t like the breeze when they walk by my desk. I tell them to either deal with the occasional breeze or hear me bitching all day long that I’m too hot. They shut up about the fan. The insomnia got bad about Covid lockdown time. I was laid off for four months and that ms when I noticed it. I finally asked my doctor for HRT last year when I was maybe only getting 5 hours a night. I had the records from my smartwatch. Doc gave me progesterone for the insomnia. OMG, amazing. It’s so much better. Estrogen in all forms was horribly expensive, something like $500 a month. I’m just doing without. I’m used to dealing with the hot flashes. The progesterone is only $50/month. I do have some brain for, but I make sure to use lists and reminders app on my phone.

        Reply ↓
        1. Perimenopausal*

          Progesterone helps me fall asleep, and estrogen helps me stay asleep longer. I’ve heard that estrogen patches are pretty cheap at Cost Plus Pharmacy if your insurance doesn’t cover them. $500/month is ridiculous! I am lucky to have pretty good insurance; I pay about 20 bucks for a month’s worth of patches.

          Reply ↓
  32. Jennifer Juniper*

    Oof! 50-year-old cis woman here. I have not even started perimenopause yet, but that may be because I’m taking medicine to stop my period.

    The boss needs to realize her comments may evoke disgust, especially in men. Not the look she’s going for, I’m sure. Not to mention that she could be scaring the heck out of younger women like the LW!

    I admit I’m coming from a place of privilege because my mom experienced no menopause symptoms at all. None. I asked her, and that’s what she said. I’ll probably get off without any, either.

    Reply ↓
    1. dude, who moved my cheese?*

      I don’t believe people should have to contort themselves to avoid even the blandest of references to having a human body that experiences medical events. If saying “I’m temporarily forgetful today because I’m going through menopause, so I’m going to write this down” evokes disgust, I’m comfortable allowing those people to simply be disgusted and they deserve to feel gross, because that is a gross point of view.

      Reply ↓
      1. Oh Nooo*

        I think it’s squarely in the category of TMI.

        A co-worker who once worked in India said a morning greeting of, “How are your bowels?” was the norm, just as we might say, “did you sleep well?” or “how was your commute?”

        T. M. I.
        ans
        NSFW

        Reply ↓
        1. Calamity Janine*

          but your example kinda kneecaps your point here, yeah? the coworker is coming from a society where it isn’t TMI and it isn’t NSFW. it’s just another way to greet someone, and in inquiring about their health you recognize them as another human being. just like how “did you sleep well with that storm last night” is doing the same thing. you might not want to talk about having a good poop, but someone else might be shocked by your blunt inquiry into how they made use of their bed last night and call you inappropriate and NSFW for it too.

          it’s not a universally inappropriate topic that’s always too much information. it’s one that changes with societal context.

          and here… well, the LW is wrestling with not having that knee jerk feeling of “ew! stop talking about medical concerns!” when it’s the older men at work talking about their forgetfulness due to age, but having that for this discussion. it’s not a universally TMI topic. labeling it as disgusting and NSFW is probably something that isn’t going to help.

          you might not want to hear about it, and that’s okay. but that doesn’t mean it’s universally NSFW and always TMI.

          Reply ↓
    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      If the examples given in the letter are characteristic of the types of things the boss says, merely saying the word “menopause” should not evoke disgust in people and if it does, that’s definitely a separate problem from the one being asked about in the letter. Like, that’s a ridiculous, over the top reaction from the staff in the year 2025.

      Reply ↓
  33. Ostrich Herder*

    One thing I haven’t seen mentioned yet is the difference in feelings about a woman saying “I’m forgetful because of menopause” vs. a man saying “I’m forgetful because of age.”

    I wonder if this is because age isn’t gendered and, in a best-case scenario, it will happen to all of us eventually. Age-based discrimination is definitely a thing, but as someone in her early 30s, LW probably hasn’t had much personal experience with it yet. However, she probably HAS had experience with gender-based discrimination, so her reaction to her manager’s menopause comments feels more visceral.

    That’s not to say that she’s wrong to be bothered by one or the other, or equivocate between age and gender discrimination. I just wonder why those two hit differently and wondered if anyone else had ideas/insight.

    Reply ↓
  34. tabloidtainted*

    Women being open about something they experience that impacts them in various ways is not “giving license to men” to be sexist. It is not fair of you to hold her to this standard.

    Reply ↓
  35. AthenaC*

    I would love it if we lived in a culture where everyone could gently and lovingly poke fun at their own normal human quirks and frailties.

    Unfortunately we don’t live in that culture, as Alison pointed out.

    Although …. thinking back, I don’t ever blame things on “mom brain” or whatever, but what I do say, as someone who wears glasses, “Ope! Can’t believe I missed that; must be time for a new prescription.” Or alternatively “Whoops! Looks like my eyes are still adjusting to my new prescription!”

    I would hope that doesn’t land as gendered, since both men and women can wear glasses. So maybe it would be different if OP’s boss didn’t specifically call out “menopause” but simply cheerfully said something gender neutral like “well when you get to be my age!” Just a thought.

    Reply ↓
    1. Yup*

      We don’t live in a culture where women, BIPOC, LGBTQ+, people with disabilities, etc. are equal either. Are you implying we should just accept that and act accordingly?

      And menopause is NOT like wearing glasses. It can be extremely debilitating, and you can’t just say oops, I left my menopause fixer at home. You have to try to function in the workforce where people judge women (BIPOC, etc. etc.) people all, the. time.

      Reply ↓
  36. Angstrom*

    I think one should be careful about generalizing one’s own experience to others. Regarding aging issues, I’m careful to say “I’ve noticed that my _______has gotten worse as I’ve gotten older”, not “Everybody’s ________gets worse as they get older”. I don’t want to impose my experience on someone else who may be experiencing something different.

    Reply ↓
  37. Irish Teacher.*

    Honestly, I don’t think the problem is that the manager is being too open. I think the problem is that she is generalising. Her phrasing suggests that this is an issue for all women her age and it isn’t.

    Part of raising awareness of medical issues, disabilities, etc is making it clear that they do not affect everybody in the same way and that you can’t make assumptions about somebody’s abilities solely based on the fact that they are in menopause/are a certain age/are pregnant/have a particular disability.

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      When I read the headline, I assumed she was intimately describing her symptoms in a way that would be too much for any kind of medical issue, so I was surprised it was just “It’s the menopause!” So “open” to me is kind of a misleading way to describe what’s happening here by the LW, though for me it’s about the frequency of mentioning it more than it is the generalising (though the generalising isn’t great either).

      Reply ↓
    2. Oh Nooo*

      Really, maybe she has a brain tumor.
      No, seriously, I don’t know any women who suddenly got forgetful.
      It could be something way more serious.

      Reply ↓
      1. Calamity Janine*

        well, good news, i believe if you scroll upwards you can in fact meet many women who suddenly got forgetful! some of them are even discussing how scary that was when they hadn’t really known menopause can do such a thing, because nobody around them was ever supposed to talk about menopause (much less mention that the brain fog is a thing that can happen)!

        i would recommend listening to those people reporting their own experiences, and reading them discussing how common it is, before leaping to a reason why Wimminz Gotta Be Insane In The Brain. that’s a pretty telling leap of logic you went for and it’s not telling terribly flattering things.

        Reply ↓
  38. Nancy*

    I didn’t take her comments to mean all women go through it, just that it is a symptom of menopause, which it is and an explanation for why she is writing it down.

    Reply ↓
  39. Oh Nooo*

    Anything that includes
    ‘at my age’, or worse, ‘at our age’ – especially when the person looks 20 years older than you, make me want to retort back with a scathing put-down.
    (to discourage that awful person from ever saying it again.)

    I have heard many moms blame a 60-lb weight gain on having a
    child – if I ever wanted kids, that would warn me off.

    The whole at my age thing – jeez, guys, you’re making me scared to get old.

    Is there a non-snarky – dare I say, even polite – response?
    I am open to ideas.

    Reply ↓
    1. Michelle*

      …What the hell?

      Someone who says “at my age” makes you want to say something scathing so they’ll shut up about their life?

      Someone who mentions that pregnancy can come with weight gain makes you want to never have a child?

      If you’re looking for ideas: I suggest moving to an island and living in total isolation so you don’t have to be afraid of (and full of contempt for) humans discussing common human things.

      Reply ↓
  40. I See Real People*

    It is never appropriate to talk about personal items like that on blast at work. People have lost all sense of reading the room. It’s not a teenage sleepover, it’s a workplace.

    Reply ↓
    1. higheredadmin*

      I was just scrolling down to say this. The advice has and always will be – keep your personal medical stuff vague. This is not your group of friends, it is work and frankly nobody cares. I am going through perimenopause and I will say things like: I’m getting a medication adjusted and it will take a period of time to regulate, and we will be back to normal. Or: I’m trying a new timekeeping system and so everything needs to come to me in writing only. Nobody needs to know what is going on specifically, just what they need to do. If you do need accommodations, get to your doctor and then get to HR to request them (for example if you have uncontrolled bleeding or fatigue, ask to work from home permanently.) If the concern is that we need to normalize menopause I am here for it, but come on. Just like everything women experience, there is a range from “I never felt healthier in my whole life than when I was pregnant” to “I spent my pregnancy in full bed rest”. In groups that I’m in I’m seeing women saying that they are being dismissed for a decrease in their performance – so yes, it’s a valid concern.

      Reply ↓
    2. Calamity Janine*

      …as someone who is disabled, sometimes we don’t get the luxury of “reading the room”. we’re surviving by talking about our struggles. we’re not making it like a “teenage sleepover”. we’re being honest and authentic about who we are.

      the fact that you characterize that as too much and immature is… interesting. let’s go with “interesting” as our polite euphemism there.

      scrambling to chuck everyone with any health problem under the bus so you can talk down women going through menopause is not a great tactic for anything other than really broadcasting what your viewpoints are (and they are… bad!) and how much they should be respected (that is, they shouldn’t!).

      Reply ↓
      1. Head Sheep Counter*

        The conflation of this issue with disability is actually highlighting why this feels uncomfortable. Menopause describes a medical condition with wildly variable symptoms. Some of them might need temporary (and that is variable too) accommodations. Its like classifying pregnancy as a disability… regardless of what the person who is pregnant is experiencing. It hedges towards “Oh those delicate hysterical women”.

        I think the teenage sleepover comment comes from the strange habit some folk have to overshare at work. Gruesome birth stories at work… no. Heavy flow descriptions at work… no. Intimacy issues with my partner at work… no. Yet…. they come up frequently as questions here and I really thought we were landing on the less is more for medical issues.

        Reply ↓
    3. thatsjustme*

      I get where you’re coming from, but “It’s not a teenage sleepover” is probably the exact kind of comment that OP’s boss is trying to counter. The implication that these topics are childish and unimportant is tied to a long history of sexism and misogyny. Being told to shut up about something because it’s a “women’s issue” feels really, really bad.

      Now, you may still be right that we all know a little too much about each other and it would be better to share less personal info at work. But it can be kind of a sore subject after a lifetime of being told the experiences of 50% of the population are niche issues and not fit for public conversation.

      Reply ↓
  41. Michelle*

    Also, just to see how deep this goes: Should we also make pregnant women pretend that they suddenly turned lazy and they’re running to the bathroom because they don’t want to work?

    After all, not EVERY pregnant woman gets morning sickness.

    Reply ↓
    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      The actual comparison would be if a pregnant person kept saying over and over “Sorry, gotta write that down, baby brain!!!” I don’t care that she has to write stuff down, but repeatedly talking about baby brain would annoy the heck out of me. I find it incredibly infantilizing (pun intended) and I’m surprised every single time someone chooses to say it. But I don’t much go in for “cutesy” stuff like this, and I realise that’s not the case for everyone.

      Reply ↓
  42. I Fought the Law*

    I think your boss is trying to normalize talking about these issue as they relate to work. When you reach that stage yourself, you may have more appreciation for what she tried to do. There is a big movement amongst Gen X women to talk more openly about menopause symptoms, because the Boomers didn’t talk to us about it and make it a taboo topic, and now we’re all confused and suffering because of that.

    Reply ↓
  43. DivergentStitches*

    As a woman coming out the other side, I don’t think we talk about menopause enough in the general world. However as with anything related to hormones and health, I think it’s normal to keep it toned down in the workplace.

    Perhaps she’d been told that she was coming across as too forgetful so she started making that comment so that people knew why?

    Reply ↓
    1. Angstrom*

      Nobody at the office has to know why she is forgetful. They just have to know what to do to work with it. “Make sure boss is taking notes when you talk with her” or “Give boss an opportunity to write it down before you walk away.” Knowing the “why” is only important if it would help come up with better accomodations.
      If someone needs an accomodation for poor vision, it doesn’t matter exactly why they have poor vision. They just need to be clear about what they need to work effectively.

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  44. Head Sheep Counter*

    I am fascinated by the comments. I’m a early 50s woman with a hysterectomy. Who knows where I am on the spectrum.

    I fall into the please do not discuss/excuse/illuminate about your medical issues at work camp as a general rule. A passing acknowledgement of a situation is all that’s needed. I’m not your doctor, therapist or perhaps even your friend (friendly acquaintance is what I strive for at work).

    The world discounts us… highlighting more reasons to discount us isn’t helpful. However, I do think in our personal lives we need more talking. Among my girlfriends… please lets talk. I had no idea about the variability regarding periods. I don’t think it would have taken me so long to get my hysterectomy if I had realized that what I was experiencing was escalating (took my doctor noticing my iron levels as well as my consistent flagging problems). Having a discussion in my own community does help point out where things might be happening that are beyond the norm and what resources people have found useful.

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  45. thatsjustme*

    As an AuDHD person, I really wish it was more acceptable to talk about my struggles — and to even have struggles in the first place — but it doesn’t seem to work out that way. I constantly feel like I’m about to get fired for having memory issues or trouble focusing, and all I can really do about it is try to hide my symptoms as much as possible so people don’t think I’m incompetent.

    I suspect that OP’s boss is hoping these comments help normalize it so that menopause, periods, ADHD, mommy brain, etc can’t be used to discriminate (even informally) against people. Whether she’s right or not probably depends on the culture of the office.

    Reply ↓

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