my coworker keeps raising his voice, is it true that you can’t take any time off when you’re new, and more

by Alison Green on February 11, 2025

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. How to work with a jerk who raises his voice, when “that’s just how he is”

I work with Fergus, a senior engineer who has a reputation for being “crotchety,” a term I am starting to push back on because it seems to explain away his unprofessional behavior as a personality quirk or something to be expected because of his age. I’m trying to figure out exactly where to draw the line in order for me and my team to consistently push back against his behavior. On our last call, Fergus joined the zoom and immediately declared his team was not involved in the project and explained to me how he thinks it works. He interrupted me several times and raised his voice in an effort to convince me and/or dominate the conversation, while I (a female, somewhat younger non-engineer) patiently explained to him that he was wrong about how it works and his team did in fact need to be involved. The next bit went well, but he did grumpily end the call with, “I can’t believe we didn’t do it the other way.” I suppose I was hoping for an apology. It was exhausting and I really think the raising of his voice is the line I want to draw. The typical response from colleagues and leadership is always, “Oh, that’s just Fergus!” and I am done with it. I don’t think someone should get to yell, just because “they’re like that.”

So I need a plan. I want to work out ahead of time what my response should be so that a) I don’t have to decide in that irritating moment that he has crossed a line, and b) I can help my team follow the same plan in the hopes that a united front will be successful. So what’s the appropriate response? Innocently ask if he’s okay and needs a minute to calm down? Firmly ask him to stop raising his voice, right there in the meeting? Email him after the fact to say that I am concerned about the tone of the meeting? Cc his boss? Or ours? Maybe only cc his boss the second time it happens? Cc HR the third time? What are my options here? Should I ask HR for advice on how to handle this, given our apparent history of letting Fergus behave however he wants?

In the moment, interject with a calm, “Please stop raising your voice.” The more calm and detached when you say it, the better; you want him to feel like he looks out of control by comparison. It’s possible that alone will be enough; often people who behave like this, especially at work, are used to never being called out on it (because “that’s just how he is”) and so when someone does, it jars them back into behaving more appropriately. So make that your strategy the next few times it happens, and see if he absorbs that he can’t raise his voice around you.

If it continues after that, talk to him one-on-one right after the meeting and call it out even more directly: “You kept raising your voice on that call — can you please not do that? It makes the meeting unpleasant for everyone else, and I don’t want to ask people to tolerate that.”

I think you have a better chance of success calling it out directly than asking his boss, your boss, or HR to intervene — since apparently everyone else has decided they’ll just work around him.

Related:
how to deal with a coworker who’s rude to you
I have to manage the office jerk

2. Is it true that you can’t take any time off when you’re new?

My best friend (who doesn’t work with me) is telling me that since I’m new at my job, my attendance has to be perfect for at least the first year. Doctors appointments on my lunch hour, work when sick, and don’t take any vacation time.

I can see it’s a good idea to be conservative with time off for a while, but no time off for a year seems excessive. She says that bosses will tell you to take your time off, but it’s much too risky for a new hire to get a reputation for not being around. She says it’s a known thing. Am I naive to think I can take reasonable time off without getting a bad reputation?

Your friend is wrong, and sounds like she’s absorbed some weird messages about work somewhere along the line. Sometimes that happens if someone has worked at really dysfunctional companies; other times it stems from messages they’ve absorbed from their families. It’s true that you shouldn’t expect to take a lot of time off when you’re new to a job, but that means “don’t expect to take a week off in month 2” (although even then, if you negotiated it at the time of hire, it might be fine), not that you can’t go to doctor’s appointments or need to work when you’re sick or take no vacation the whole year.

Related:
everything you need to know about time off when you start a new job
how soon after starting a new job can you take a whole week off?

3. Can I keep my own soap in the office bathroom without others using it?

Our daughter was stillborn in 2022 and my husband and I have recently become pregnant again. The hand soap provided at my work isn’t safe to use while pregnant, so I’ve brought my own, but it’s quite expensive.

Carrying my own hand soap back and forth from my office to the bathroom isn’t practical or hygienic. How can I mark the bottle in such a way that my coworkers won’t use it and I don’t seem like I’m being dramatic? FYI, none of my coworkers know we’re expecting and I would very much like to keep it that way.

I don’t think you can, unfortunately. If it’s in the bathroom, some people will use it and it also risks getting tossed. Can you buy a less expensive option to keep there? (I’m guessing you’re trying to avoid antibacterial soap, and there are a number of low-cost alternatives. If you’re having trouble finding them, talk to your doctor about options.) Another option could be something like soap leaves, which you can slip in your pocket when you head to the bathroom, if you can find suitable ones.

4. My employee made such an odd hiring recommendation that I’m doubting her skills

I am retiring in April and while I don’t have a unique job, I have a unique skill set and several people will probably cover my roles. For the administrative part, we’ve pretty much decided what to do, but it’s not finalized. I’ve shared with my staff that the plan is being developed and that I will tell them everything I know as soon as I know it.

Yesterday I received an email from Janet, someone I would consider in a more senior position, recommending her coworker (Amy, who I also supervise) for this position. Amy is in no way qualified to do this role. Janet’s heart was in the right place, and I thanked her for sharing but that was all I said. However, now I am looking at Janet and her abilities in a different way. Her assessment of Amy’s skills is way off. Otherwise, I think Janet’s skills are excellent and my advice to my successor was going to be have her on a path to the next level. Now I’m not sure. How do I get out of this mindset? Am I totally overreacting?

It’s hard to say without knowing more. How clear is Janet on exactly what that position will be and what it will take to do it well? You said you’ve only really shared so far that a plan is in progress, so is it possible that Janet is envisioning the job being something different? Also, how closely has she worked with Amy? Is she well positioned to have seen Amy’s skills and strengths and weaknesses firsthand, or not? If she knows exactly what the position will be and she’s worked with Amy closely enough that she should know she’s obviously not a match, then sure, that’s concerning (if in fact the next step for Janet would mean a job where she’ll need to hire and manage people). But if either of those factors aren’t present, I wouldn’t let this throw you.

If you’re unsure, why not ask her what led her to recommend Amy and approach it from the standpoint of being genuinely curious about her perspective? Who knows, you might hear something that makes it make more sense to you (but if not, that will be helpful info too).

5. How can I push for a standard fee that wasn’t in a contract?

I’m a subject expert in my field and was booked to speak for a larger conference this coming spring. The host organization “merged with” (was bought by?) another that will certainly have value differences and make changes. One was to lay off 25+ staff from the original org. Another was to cancel me from the line up (likely because my point of view is not shared by them, but I’m speculating).

Thing is, the original org booked speakers without formal contracts, which is unusual, but not unheard of and worked because they had a lot of clout in our field. Everyone knew they’d act in good faith, which is good, since they hold more power in our space. (But you see where this is going.)

Normally if an organization cancels me within 90 days of the event, my cancellation fee is 50% of our agreed upon rate. I slotted this event into my schedule to the exclusion of others, began working on my content for them, and am unlikely to fill that space with a new event. This new org has said they’ll pay it, just send my invoice and “executed contract.” I’m reasonably sure they know as well as I that there isn’t one.

My judgement is clouded by my distaste for the new org and its values, so while I’m not disappointed to be off the lineup, I’m also not at ease to not at least try to push for the fee. I know they can dig in and just not pay it, but what I’m looking for is the wording that says, “No official contract is not my fault, and was beyond my control, but you should honor what we both know is typical in this scenario, please.”

Do you have anything in writing confirming the original agreement — even just emails? An email agreement can count as a written contract in many cases. They could push back since there was no cancellation fee specified in those emails, but you’ll at least be able to document that this was a firm agreement, which sounds like the best you can do. Frame it as, “OrgA always used email agreements like the one attached. Since I held space in my schedule, turned down other work for that time, and have already begun working on my content, I’m attaching an invoice for half the fee, per typical practice.”

Also, do you have any contacts from the original org who remain at the new org (or who, even if they’re gone, have some influence there) who would be willing to push on your behalf?

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{ 259 comments }

{ 259 comments… read them below or add one }

    1. BigLawEx*

      I see what you did there with that username.

      I’m that pesky person who always wants a contract. Everyone is annoyed. But it eliminates these problems. I get that they’re often not standard, but I swear by them.

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      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Yep. Sometimes, no matter how much you know and trust a person/org, the obligation can get transferred to someone else. This is a good example, or a debt being transferred to an estate. Then you really need a written contract.

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    2. MK*

      Sure, but also it’s just speculation on OP’s part that they won’t pay her, and in particular that they asked for her contract knowing she doesn’t have one. It may well be someone using standard language.

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      1. MassMatt*

        It’s speculation, but with some decent evidence in support–they cancelled his speech, and asked for a copy of his contract in order to pay him.

        I’m afraid LW #5 is SOL.

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    3. Contracts Killer*

      Contracts attorney here. Always ALWAYS get a contract. If you can’t get a contract, I’d question whether it makes sense to work with that company. Contracts do two things. First, they solidify the details and understandings of the parties. But also, they lock in the company because contracts (good ones, at least) have a clause saying that the party signing on behalf of the company has the authority of the company to sign. Then you know the company is actually bound and you aren’t going on the word of someone who doesn’t actually have the ability to bind the company – and if they signed it, at least you could potentially go after them personally if needed.

      At minimum, you want a written chain of agreement that you can save. And organize your emails in a way that you can quickly find that documentation.

      After oral agreements, follow up by email with delivery (and ideally read) receipts and save those, too. Don’t word your emails asking for their agreement, word them as – it’s my understanding that we agreed to XYZ, please let me know if that isn’t your understanding.

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  2. Daria grace*

    #2: an even sort of normal, sensible employer won’t want you using no leave in your first year. They don’t want you bringing viruses into the office or getting so exhausted and burned out your work suffers. For many businesses accumulated unused leave is a financial liability on their books they don’t like to have a lot of. In many areas of financial services and other fields with fraud potential people not taking leave can raise red flags as a sign they may be sticking around to keep a fraud going (fraudulent dealings are commonly caught when someone goes on leave and someone else works on their tasks and takes their calls)

    Unless you were always gone for extremely important dates it’s really unlikely you’d get a reputation for always being gone with the number of leave days available to most people.

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    1. Cmdrshprd*

      I would say depending on the size and nature of the role, I wouldn’t expect to take a long time off in the first year like 3+ days. Especially if it’s. a coverage based role and time off is booked in advance. This is part of the reason why I recommend taking a week or two off in-between job changes if you can afford it.

      I would say calling in sick as needed, taking time off for medical appointments, or a day or two next to the weekend is fine.

      Most employers I’ve seen don’t allow significant vacation based time off in the first 3 to 6 months. unless something is preplanned/booked and negotiated before starting, I do think it would seem off to take 3+ days off in the first 6 months for a newly booked vacation.

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      1. Varthema*

        This seems really conservative to me. If someone is hired in June you’d look at them askance for taking a week off for Christmas, or someone hired in February can’t take week off in the summer? The only job I worked in where time off was looked at so askance was retail – so, yes, coverage based, but also, in retail, you’re definitely nowhere near a new employee at 6 months, you may even have a certain level of seniority due to the churn there.
        I’m with you for the first three months, first month I’d be reluctant to even take a day off except for sickness or something truly unavoidable, but 6 already seems excessive.

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        1. Amy Purralta*

          In the UK there has been a few occasions I have taken 2 weeks leave within the first few months as the holiday was already booked. Nobody batted an eyelid as I just told them about my leave in the Interview. I feel this is a US v UK mindset, but I could be wrong.

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          1. Nebula*

            I think it’s the fact you let them know before you were hired that you had a holiday booked that makes the difference rather than US vs UK here. Alison mentions that in the advice, and I know that anywhere I’ve worked (in the UK) if you just randomly decided to take two weeks off in the first few months, without it being a holiday you’d booked beforehand and let your employer know about, it wouldn’t look great.

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          2. Michigander*

            I work in the UK and as a manager we have to monitor everyone’s annual leave and make sure they’re actually taking their time off. The last few months of the year there’s a lot of pushing people to take all of the leave that won’t roll over (only 1 week rolls over). I would actually be fairly annoyed if a new hire started and refused to take any leave in the first year.

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            1. Liseusester*

              Yeah, I’m also a manager in the UK and I make sure to sit down with my new starters and ask them to plan out where in the year they might want to take their leave. I talk through our busy periods, my expectations about checking to make sure their colleagues aren’t off/crossover of leave is kept to a minimum and then I make them take their leave. My last new starter had a holiday already booked which was a week into their employment with us. They offered to hand in their notice at their job later, go on holiday, and then start with us. Instead, because we pay more, I said to hand it in then, work for us for a week and do the IT set up and troubleshooting, the mandatory e-learning, learn some names, go on holiday, and then come back ready to start properly.

              I have, in the past, threatened to make use of the legal power to tell people when they are going to take leave if they won’t plan it themselves.

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          3. WheresMyPen*

            I’m in the UK and from the year I started got 25 days annual leave same as everyone else, so it would be weird to not let someone take a week off at any point during their first year. It’s a good idea to wait until you know what your schedule looks like – there are times of year it would suck for my team if I were off for a week or two – but we’re encouraged to use all our annual leave and there’d be no problem having a week off here or there.

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          4. Shinespark*

            The difference for us in the UK isn’t just mindset. We have a legal statutory minimum amount of annual leave. A lot of managers will pester you to use your annual leave before the year ends, because (as I understand it) it could cause problems for the company if it comes to light their staff are having less than the legal amount of time off.

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            1. Media Monkey*

              and because unused holiday based on your contracted amount has to be paid out when you leave (or paid back if you have taken more than the pro rated amount due) and so companies have to have the amount sitting on their books available to pay out based on the amount of holiday left to be taken. so it can be a problem for smaller companies to have budget tied up in unusued holiday.

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              1. Shinespark*

                This is a good point! Both would have a knock on effect on culture, where not taking any annual leave for the first 6-12 months gets seen as a liability instead of ‘dedication to the company’.

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            2. Marion Ravenwood*

              I work in the UK public sector (local government) and our annual leave policy literally has a line in it that says all staff must take at least a full week’s worth of leave in one go at some point in the leave year. I suspect this is to encourage everyone to actually take their time off!

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              1. Paulina*

                Also, some types of employment require everyone to take off at least a minimum block of holiday so that the work can be audited. Or alternatively, so that there never develops a practice of leaving all of a particular task to one individual.

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          5. Lily Rowan*

            In the US, more than once I have gotten a new job with a pre-planned 2 week vacation in the first few months. As Alison recommends, I included that in my negotiations when I was hired, and it was no problem. These were professional roles at basically good employers, so I get that might not be a universal experience.

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            1. Pottery Yarn*

              This right here. I took two 4-day weekends in my first six weeks at my current company as an entry-level office worker. The first one was my sibling’s wedding and the second was a nonrefundable family trip. My boss didn’t even bat an eye when I mentioned it at the offer stage and said it wouldn’t be a problem. I had even offered to take unpaid leave and was assured I could use my PTO. I took both trips and no one thought a thing of it. I was only five months in when took my first weeklong trip and felt completely comfortable using all of my benefits by that point.

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        2. Cmdrshprd*

          The 3 to 6 months isn’t just my opinion it was the official policy of different employers I’ve had. With both types, they still allowed sick days, and or one/two off days, it was just no significant vacation time during the first 3 or 6 months depending on employer.

          I wouldn’t look askance at a newbie asking about Xmas off, but in my coverage based roles, Xmas is a often requested time and fills up in June/July so someone coming in around then likely wouldn’t be able to get a week off then.

          Someone starting in feb. I could see being fine taking a week off towards the end of summer late August/September. But I do think asking for/taking a full week off during the first 6 months isn’t advisable.

          Imo it’s not until 8/10 months in that you become a known quantity. the first 3 months you are still unknown, people can fake it for 3 months, 6 months you start to become known. Taking a full week before you set your reputation I wouldn’t do it. Taking a Thur/Fri, or Fri/mon. or random midweek way after 3 months to 8 months is fine. just not a full week.

          often even after having been somewhere for a while, most of my time off is in smaller pieces.

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        3. Aggretsuko*

          My job makes you reserve your vacation time a year in advance (in mid-December), but you can only book as many days as you have saved up by mid-October. You cannot pre-book ahead of time with hours you’ll earn later in the year, either. Since I started in May, I had so few days saved that it wasn’t worth it to book time out except for the one day all year I have to be out for a wedding.

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      2. Cthulhu’s Librarian*

        You’re off base and perpetuating bad advice and bad conduct. I manage and schedule coverage based positions. If a new hire thinks there are limitations on using their time off in the first year of their employment, we talk about having worked for shitty and exploitative companies, and how that can warp your norms.

        If another employee can take off two weeks, so can my new hires. Everyone has the same ability to use their time, even if they don’t have the same amounts.

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        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          ^ This, all of this.

          I’m glad you have the conversation about norms. Exploitative employers are really common as first employers and it really sets people up for the first few years of their professional lives to be chaotic.

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        2. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

          ++ same. I ask folks to limit their periods of consecutive leave for the first 3 months while they’re learning the job (because consistent practice really matters). But that means like, a 4- day weekend or a few days of sick leave would still be no big deal, I just don’t want someone taking two weeks off in month two. After 3 months, I fully expect them to use leave the way a long-time employee would. We have (honestly pretty flexible) documented coverage policies that everyone is subject to, doesn’t matter if you’re new or been there for 10 years.

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          1. Slow Gin Lizz*

            Yeah, this. I started a new job in May and our PTO didn’t start until we’d been there for 90 days. I scheduled a two-week trip right at the end of my 90 days that meant I was able to take a week unpaid and then use my newly kicked-in PTO for the 2nd week. Everyone was totally fine with it, no one even batted an eye. And I believe I took one or two days or afternoons of unpaid time off in my first 90 days for already-scheduled long weekend trips.

            In my previous two jobs, I’d had already-booked trips that I took within the first two months of employment and again, NBD.

            For reference, I’m in the US. And as Daria Grace says, any sort-of-normal company will be fine with this kind of PTO. If your company isn’t, then you work for a lousy company, unfortunately.

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            1. Chocoholic*

              My husband just started a job in November, the week before Thanksgiving. And we had a vacation planned the first week of January. He had to take a couple of unpaid days, but he was allowed the time off and nobody batted an eye.

              And at my organization, we hired someone who started January 6 and he had a previously scheduled vacation the week of January 21. He had a little bit of time available, and still had to take a couple of unpaid days but it was fine.

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        3. Rachel Morgan*

          Same at with this librarian.

          All my staff start with their full sick time, front loaded. They can use it as they need to (or switch shifts with another staff). No questions asked. I don’t want sick people in the library spreading their germs or whatever, so sick time works for that.

          I will happily do my best to make sure everyone can take the time off they need, including the maternity leave that a fairly new PT employee is going to have to take too soon.

          Everyone has lives outside of work. New employees & old.

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        4. Rex Libris*

          This. In general, if you’ve got the vacation time to take, I want you to use it, and I’ll approve it. I don’t really care how long you’ve been here.

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      3. Ana Gram*

        I’m surprised by this. I work for local government and we start employees off with 40 hours each of annual and sick leave so that they can take time off. We definitely don’t want you to come in sick because you’re worried about not getting paid and we want you to be able take vacation as well.

        I wouldn’t ask for a week off on my second day off work but it’s totally normal in my field to start booking time off and using your benefits well within your first year.

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        1. AMH*

          After years of working for small dysfunctional companies, my supervisor at my local government job had to — I don’t want to say coax me, but remind me frequently that I had time to take and I should be taking it, and certainly shouldn’t let it expire since some of our PTO doesn’t roll over. I’m in year 3 and I still have to hype myself up to put in a time off request, but I do use my time up now.

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        2. Governmint Condition*

          That’s more than we start people out with. You start with 0 sick leave, and earn about 1 day per month. You are not allowed to use vacation time for the first 6 months (even though your bank builds up). But you do get 5 personal days that you can use for emergencies.

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          1. MtnLaurel*

            That’s how it was with my job. I was terrified I’d be let go when my husband needed serious surgery in Month 2. We worked it out.

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            1. MigraineMonth*

              A lot of organizations–if they’re decent and you have a good reputation–will work with you if you’re out of PTO and there’s an emergency. That might mean allowing your leave balance to go negative, allowing others to donate their leave to you, or granting you extra. Talk to your manager!

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      4. Sloanicota*

        My rule is generally no time off in month one (a quick lunch hour errand doesn’t count) unless it’s completely unavoidable – I mean, if you get sick, you get sick. Then through month three I try to be conservative about taking leave. After that, I’m enough of a known quality that I don’t worry about it too much. I might take a week around six months in a perfect world. A year seems too conservative to me. But I switch jobs on average every four years probably. I might feel differently if I started a job expecting to retire with a gold watch 30 years later.

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      5. Contracts Killer*

        I don’t know that I agree with this position, but I do agree about some employers not wanting you to take vacation for the first few months. I used to work in state government and you start accruing sick, personal, and vacation time as soon as you start. However, you are only allowed to use sick and personal leave as soon as you accrue it. You cannot use the vacation time you’ve already accrued until you’ve worked for 6 months.

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      6. NotAnotherManager!*

        This wouldn’t be realistic at any job I’ve had. If it’s a coverage-based role and time off is booked in advance, wouldn’t that give more flexibility to take a normal week of vacation because there is time in advance to coordinate coverage? Three days doesn’t cover most school holidays, and expecting people to go a year without vacation beyond a long weekend is unrealistic and a recipe for burnout.

        We ask people not to take extended vacations for the first 90 days of training/onboarding, unless it is pre-scheduled, but supervisors have latitude to be flexible if it does not impact business operations or training. People who get sick should stay home (or, if eligible, work remotely). Once you’ve passed the probationary period of employment, your accrued vacation is yours to use as you see fit and approved by your supervisor.

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    2. WS*

      Yeah, I would say it’s more “be thoughtful until you know your new workplace’s norms”. Maybe this place gives everyone a week off between Christmas and New Year, maybe they have a priority list for popular dates, maybe everyone knows to check leave with Manager Jane rather than Manager Dana because Dana always just says yes without checking and leaves the workplace short on staff.

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      1. Venus*

        I agree about workplace norms, and it’s often easy to learn those when talking to coworkers.

        At my first real job after college, I was invited to a friend’s wedding at the end of the month but hadn’t known to mention it at the interview. In my first few days I mentioned the invite to my new boss, and asked if I could take the Friday as vacation so that I could fly across the country and I’d return on the Sunday (I hadn’t booked anything yet). He seemed surprised by the suggestion, pointed out that it was a beautiful place to visit, and ‘advanced’ me vacation days so that I could spend the week. The company had an office nearby (we worked for a big company) and he arranged for me to visit those coworkers so that one day that week would be a workday (it wasn’t a weird imposition of work, rather he wanted to save me another vacation day and the company paid for a night in a hotel. My workday was an easy day where I met a bunch of people and learned what they did). My boss viewed that visit as worthwhile because it helped build relationships with that group and he didn’t have to pay for a plane ticket. He knew that I’d just finished years of school so I hadn’t had much of a break, and I really appreciated his kindness. In that case I was unusually lucky because he gave me more time than I’d expected, but it’s also a reasonable request at a reasonable workplace.

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        1. Smithy*

          Honestly – I think this is one of the better things that bosses can do with their direct reports no matter the age. Is to flag whenever travel will be to a unique/special place and to encourage thinking about staying longer.

          I once had a work trip to a really gorgeous place in southern Africa that was entirely paid for by an external party – including business class plane tickets (a thing my employer would NEVER). The day when things ended and we could first fly home would have us all making it back to the US the Wednesday before Thanksgiving. However, they offered to cover an extra hotel night for anyone leaving the next day who then would have arrived in the US on Thanksgiving. When booking it just seemed obvious to not show up at my parents the day of Thanksgiving – but when I went I met only one person there who was returning home the day of Thanksgiving. His wife and supervisor had encouraged staying for what would be a once in a lifetime largely paid for experience. With the only money he’d spend truly being on whatever he’d do that extra day. To say I regret not making that choice now is a wild understatement.

          If nothing else, the situation put into place that often times our instant workplace responses need to be disrupted. And it can be particularly helpful when our supervisor is that voice.

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    3. LaminarFlow*

      I think this depends on the company, as well as the timing of the leave. If the new job has the busiest season in December (retail, for example) and a newbie wants to take the entire month of December off, probably not a good thing to attempt.

      But, with companies that don’t roll over unused leave, employees must take it. After all, it is part of their compensation.

      I have started several new roles, and after the offer has been accepted, and I have a bit of a rapport with the hiring manager, I usually bring up “How would you like me to request leave? I have an XYZ trip planned in ABC month, so how do you typically like that to be handled?” Basically, just act like of course you have this trip, and obviously you will be using your leave.

      Reply ↓
    4. That Coworker's Coworker*

      Unfortunately not all companies are sort of normal, sensible employers! I worked for one company where they had a policy of zero PTO use in your first 6 months. During the hiring process I negotiated an exception, to be able to attend my brother’s wedding. This was just a long weekend – I took off 2-3 days, not even a whole week. That didn’t seem to be a problem, but months later I caught the flu and called in sick 2 days in a row, and ended up with my paycheck docked for that time, and a note from HR that I’d “already used up all leeway” by going to the wedding 2 months before that. I don’t even think this is legal, since I was salaried, but there was nobody to appeal to within the firm, and I was pretty sure I’d get fired if I filed a complaint with the Dept of Labor.

      Reply ↓
      1. Aggretsuko*

        Yeah, this sounds like my job.

        I went into work sick too during that six months. I didn’t tell them I was sick, I masked for the entire time, but I couldn’t afford to not get paid for half a month. It was just cruel.

        Reply ↓
    5. iglwif*

      Also, won’t you lose those vacation days, or at least some of them, if you don’t take them?

      In my career so far I’ve worked for companies that are “use it or lose it” with vacation days, and companies that let you carry over a certain limited number of days if you ask, and companies that automatically roll over vacation time under a certain amount, and companies that let you carry over a small number of vacation days as long as you both ask first AND use them within a specified period (e.g., the first month of the new FY), but I’ve never worked anywhere that let you carry all your vacation days over into the new FY. It’s always some type of use-it-or-lose-it situation, because unused vacation days have to be paid out when you leave, and they don’t want to do that OR have it sitting as a liability on their books.

      And I don’t know about OP2, but I am not letting The Man have my hard-earned vacation days!!

      Reply ↓
  3. Daria grace*

    #3. Can you decant the soap into one of those little hand sanitizer bottles that can be clipped on a lanyard or put in your pocket?

    Reply ↓
    1. Cmdrshprd*

      I would suggest asking the company OP works for if they do their own stocking, or asking the cleaning/service company if they csn switch or add a soap that meets OPs needs.

      I don’t think it would be a big ask, and if they say no, not any worse off.

      Reply ↓
      1. NoSoap*

        My medically necessary non-soap cleanser doesn’t lather so most people don’t believe it actually works and it costs about $15/bottle.

        Reply ↓
      2. MsM*

        Yeah, I don’t know what exactly about the soap isn’t safe for pregnant women, but I’m not sure I want to be using it either if that’s the case. Maybe OP could just ask if it’s possible to find something without [problematic ingredient].

        Reply ↓
      3. Anonym*

        Worth a try, but depending on the company it can be complicated for them to change (outside vendors, service contracts, etc.), so just moderate your expectations.

        Reply ↓
    3. Agent Diane*

      I was going to suggest decanting into a small travel bottle so it’s less obtrusive. That means you can also take it about in your bag if travelling etc. And if you accidentally leave it in the bathroom at work you’re not losing as much.

      I’m a bit puzzled over the unhygienic element of carrying your own soap in/out of the bathroom. If it’s the idea that the bottle will pick something up, you can give it a quick rinse and dry after washing your hands?

      And good luck with the pregnancy!

      Reply ↓
      2. Falling Diphthong*

        The travel size section of drug stores often has little bottles you can buy (to get your usual shampoo etc down below the carry-on limits). Another possible source.

        In general, I think you need a solution you carry on your person. I think it’s just not going to work to have your colleagues not use the soap that’s in the bathroom, and not wonder why you want different soap.

        Congratulations on the pregnancy.

        Reply ↓
        1. Venus*

          It really depends on the workplace. Many places I have worked, there are sometimes bottles of special soaps or other items that are left there for regular use. I wouldn’t leave a large, expensive bottle, yet in some workplaces it would be reasonable to leave a small bottle labelled with OP’s name and assume that it will stay there. The most important part is to label it with the name so that others don’t use it.

          Reply ↓
          1. HSE Compliance*

            ^Agreed. I’ve worked in some places where anything you left in there would be gone in 15 minutes. And in some places, it’s totally normal to leave things – where I’m at right now, every plant/office has some kind of little shelf or cabinet unit in every (not just women’s) bathroom that people leave tampons, hair ties, soap, etc. I think I walked into one unisex that had Dude Wipes on one of the shelves.

            If your office/plant is one of the ones where things go missing, then the safest bet is to keep a small bottle with you. I’d do one of those clip on tiny bottles.

            Reply ↓
      3. tango*

        My mom had really bad eczema and used to do this with her special soap, you can also just wash off the bottle a little bit when you wash your hands to make sure it stays fairly sanitary.

        Reply ↓
    5. NotAnotherManager!*

      This is what my spouse does. He appears to have some sort of sensitivity or allergy to the industrial-grade soap his office uses, so he has a travel-sized bottle that he just refills with the soap his derm recommended to carry with him at work. It’s not always convenient, but it’s more convenient than having a terrible rash on both hands.

      Reply ↓
      1. BlueCanoe*

        I have fragrance sensitivity issues and I ordered a set of four silicone travel soap bottles. I use some for actual traveling and I use one for hand soap that I take to work. I usually put it in my pocket when I go to the restroom but you can also get one of those clip things to clip it onto pants, or put it on a lanyard or wristlet.

        If anyone asks (which no one has ever asked me why I bring my own soap), there are a lot of boring excuses for using your own soap.. you’re concerned about x ingredient in the company’s soap, or say that your soap seems better for your skin, you don’t like the smell (if it has a smell) or something. I don’t know what makes the company’s soap unsafe for pregnant women but if I found out my company’s soap wasn’t safe for pregnancy I’d look askance at using it myself and I’m not pregnant.

        Reply ↓
  4. FanciestCat*

    #3 Could you put the soap in a small container? I’m picturing something pocket hand sanitizer sized. You could keep it in your pocket and if it’s small it should be easy to quickly wash the outside with the soap if you’ve pulled it out with dirty hands. You can find small bottles at drugstore usually for travel purposes. I don’t think leaving it in the bathroom would work unless there’s somewhere you can hide it that no one, including janitorial staff, would bother it.

    Reply ↓
  5. Miss Demeanor*

    LW 1, I used to work with a guy who yelled/raised his voice like your coworker and the way I dealt with it was to lower my voice when responding. I’d start with a regular pitched “Yes, and” or I would loop (to let him know I had heard what he was saying) and then lower my voice to complete my answer. My particular Fergus had to lower his voice to hear me. Worked like a charm every time.

    Why did my Fergus yell? Turns out he didn’t feel heard. Looping (repeating in a neutral way what he had said) went a long way for him to feel heard by me. And the yelling stopped.

    Reply ↓
    1. Miss V*

      That is a much classier and kinder way than how I dealt with my Fergus.

      I started calling him emotional. He raised his voice? ‘You seem very emotional about this, why don’t I give you a minute to calm down then we’ll circle back?’ That’s just how he is? Yes, Fergus gets so emotional about things.

      Eventually enough people started calling him emotional (because anger is an emotion! despite the fact we let a lot of men get away with pretending it isn’t) that he was shamed into stopping.

      Reply ↓
      3. Lab Snep*

        My dad is like this. He was being yelly and grouchy and I looked at him and calmly said “until you are able to speak with me calmly and like an adult, I am going to sit here on the couch and wait”.

        20 minutes later he came back as cooool as a cucumber.

        Reply ↓
    2. Mockingjay*

      As an older worker, people like Fergus doubly irritate me because of shared perception of age quirks, which do not belong in the workplace.

      I use agendas to keep on point and add a bit of detail to topics to pin each participant’s role:
      Agenda: Widget Schedule
      Ref: Widget Project Management Plan, approved
      1) Design Team, POC: OP1. Discuss widget re-design.
      2) Manufacturing Team, POC: Fergus. Discuss materials order.
      3) Shipping Team, POC: Wakeen. Discuss shipment costs.

      Agendas make it easy to redirect: “Fergus, Wakeen is responsible for shipping; he’ll discuss that next.” “Fergus, the redesign has already been approved. Can you give us status on the materials needed to produce the changes?”

      I like the idea of using a lowered voice; my children’s teachers did that and it was very effective. Unfortunately most of my work is accomplished on Teams meetings across the country with dreadful audio, so I’m stuck with loud voices. Sometimes I postpone the discussion: “Fergus, why don’t we discuss this separately? Can you stay on the line after this meeting or do you want to meet later?” Then I can handle things one on one without subjecting everyone else to a rant.

      Reply ↓
        1. Jelizabug*

          Teams does have a mute option. I’ve used it as a participant when the host isn’t muting hot mics. Whether that option is available may depend on how the IT group sets it up though.

          Reply ↓
    3. The Starsong Princess*

      I worked with a Fergus equivalent and his problem was he was a jerk. He had a unique skill set so we had to put up with him. My main job for about a year was attending meetings to keep him from blowing up and smoothing things over on his behalf. He used to hang up on our vendors or shout at them. I’m sure they charged us a jerk tax. The entire time this was going on we were cross training others on his skill set. As soon as that was in place, he was forcibly retired and I made sure he knew I was behind it. It was one of the happiest days of my career.

      Reply ↓
    4. sb51*

      Yeah, I think there’s two branches here:

      1. Fergus is an ass, and your coworkers are just stepping over the “missing stair” and no one is dealing with the problem.

      2. Fergus is bad at meetings/people, but well-intentioned, and has built enough trust with your coworkers that they are willing to put up with that for his expertise/knowledge/something. (Some amount of bad at meetings/people can be coached; some cannot, and I’m only talking about stuff like “speaks too loudly when excited about a project and doesn’t notice it”, not stuff like “speaks over younger women, listens attentively to older men”.)

      Asking a coworker “how do you deal with Fergus when he’s Like This” may help actually get a clear distinction and useful tips (no matter which it is).

      Reply ↓
  6. FunkyMunky*

    #3 – soap sheets!
    https://www.amazon.ca/Portable-Travel-Disposable-Outdoor-Kitchen/dp/B099W1TLCY/ref=mp_s_a_1_7?crid=1JAG9S8A0O5H7&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.I4YWNmTVRpt-8AjM59EIjxq6H3VAsJVa0_K91W1Qsz9me-X20OS5iD6oXwTaNQHnrvlqoRkZr6iyaBuYJEHCHNeAv0IWynQk82crUoWRriHzVvSEATtbbfTg5N1tWVUlZZnKTZnyu6p53H41rwoAWuILBUv4gmMRQKPG2qXI48803TffJDP5lWSf7fs7bXg2VfzNv716b_0GrExuvJKnvg.fNrmmIMHzld1HS0j76a89sXyuVwMY6253QEoCpGND2c&dib_tag=se&keywords=soap+sheets&qid=1739251410&sprefix=soap+shee%2Caps%2C101&sr=8-7

    Reply ↓
    3. Worldwalker*

      By the way, most people don’t know this, you can cut off “ref=“ and everything after it, and still get the right page. Amazon puts a lot of search-related clutter in the URL.

      Reply ↓
      1. Aww, coffee, no*

        I did not know this; thank you so much for sharing. It drives me up the wall that the Amazon URL’s always seem so long so I’m delighted to know they can be chopped down :-)

        Reply ↓
      2. Beany*

        I always cut off the question mark and following characters when I pass on URLs like this — I didn’t know I could drop the ref bit too — thanks!

        Reply ↓
        1. Funko Pops Day*

          yes, in any URL, the ? and anything after it are tracking variables. Sometimes you need these (e.g., you have a one-click sign in link, or are using a link that’s enabled with a discount code, etc.) but usually you can remove them.

          Reply ↓
      3. Sloanicota*

        Most retailers are desperate to understand where customers are coming from, so they want to be able to track what link or search lead you here. That’s what the junk in the “dirty urls” are about. I believe Amazon in particular also charges sellers differently if “their” Amazon search features lead you to their product, versus if you went to Amazon only because you already planned to buy that specific item from that vendor – meaning, they want to be able to tell if you got there by clicking on the “recommended” from a distantly related search. I always cut off everything after dp/letter code.

        Reply ↓
      4. L.H. Puttgrass*

        You don’t even really need everything before the dp/letter code, either. That item name in the URL? Totally optional.

        Removing it is more than is necessary for commenting on a blog post, but if you ever want the shortest Amazon link possible (that still goes to Amazon and not a URL shortener), all you need is amazon.com/dp/[item#].

        Reply ↓
  7. Not Tom, Just Petty*

    #3: put your soap container in a major bag or smaller purse and carry it it and from the bathroom. Anyone looking at woman twice because of carrying a bag has their own issues. Anyone asking why you have your own soap: “oh, I prefer this to what the building provides.”
    I work with a couple women who do that and one woman who just carries her Bath and Bodyworks flavor of the week to and from the bathroom. You think it’s odd because you’ve never noticed anyone doing it. You’ve never noticed anyone doing it because it’s not noticeable. You’re good!

    Reply ↓
    1. Daria grace*

      Yup. I’d be very unlikely to notice someone doing this and if I did I’d just assume that they had very particular taste in soap scents or maybe sensitive skin. It wouldn’t occur to me there was some kind of secret medical explanation

      Reply ↓
    2. NoSoap*

      It’s not about being noticed, it’s about ensuring the cleanser you need is there when you need it. You may not be coming for your desk or you may have something on your hands that you have to wash off that would make the bottle sticky if you had to carry it, etc.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ellis Bell*

        Yeah, it’s possible OP might have those sort of logistics where they need to come from a different space than where they keep their stuff. Or, if they’re like me, concerned about forgetting it. The idea to use a clip on sanitizer bottle upthread was a good one. If there’s coat hooks or a stand near the bathroom door, OP could hang up a noticeable grab bag or just put it in the vicinity of the toilets, rather than by their desk.

        Reply ↓
        1. Ellis Bell*

          Oh and as someone who had to move around two buildings a lot, I realised I already have had to figure this out in the past. Back when my psoriasis was really bad, I had to use lotion after washing my hands. In that situation it lived in a particular big pocket of a cardigan, and I just made sure to put it on whenever I left my desk.

          Reply ↓
      2. Dahlia*

        I mean honestly, you kind of just have to figure that out. Carry in a pocket, if you have them. My aunt’s allergic to aloe so she can’t use basically any soap that she doesn’t buy herself, and you do just have to deal with things like that.

        Reply ↓
    3. WoodswomanWrites*

      There’s an excellent breathable case you can use to transport a soap bar that allows it to dry and not get goopy, created for travel. It works great for me. I’m including the link in a reply.

      Reply ↓
    4. Totally Minnie*

      I have a mini toiletry bag in my desk drawer with a travel toothbrush, some individually wrapped face wipes, and my feminine hygiene supplies. Nobody’s ever looked twice at me taking it to or from the bathroom.

      Reply ↓
    5. librarian*

      I work with people who bring their own soap to the bathroom because they have a sensitivity to smells and the soap provided sets that off! Honestly it’s really normal.

      Reply ↓
  8. BigLawEx*

    It’s no different than a feminine hygiene (menstruation) product I assume. You’d bring your own supply and bring it to the bathroom when you needed it.

    Reply ↓
    1. Cmdrshprd*

      I think part of it is the sanitary issue, of pulling the soap out with dirty hands (after using the bathroom) to wash them and then putting the soap back, with clean hands and getting them dirty again.

      Reply ↓
        1. mskyle*

          They can probably live on the soap container (if OP is using liquid soap), but as others have pointed out, you can just wash the soap container (with soap) at the same time as you wash your hands.

          Reply ↓
      3. BlueCanoe*

        I squirt some soap into one hand, close the bottle with my other hand and put it back in my pocket (or wherever I’m keeping it), then wash my hands. It takes a little dexterity to manage the bottle with one hand but it works for me

        Reply ↓
  9. Yvette*

    With regards to the soap, I am guessing it only comes in a bar or you would’ve already thought of putting some in a little TSA style shampoo bottle.
    But it is fairly easy to turn bar soap into liquid soap. Take a bar of soap and using the large hole side of the greater create a bunch of flakes. Put them in a clean jar and cover them with hot water and then add a little more. Give it a stir put the lid on and give it a couple of days you will have liquid soap. If it’s too thick, you can mix in a little more water.
    You can look on the Internet and see more elaborate ways to do this, but that way works just fine. I have been doing that for years with a little slivers of soap from the shower. I shove them into an empty liquid hand soap dispenser with hot tap water. It doesn’t get moldy. Besides you can just make a little at a time and use it up quickly.

    Reply ↓
    1. Mockingbird*

      There are enough people use bar soap, shampoo, etc now to go plastic free that finding a travel soap box won’t be hard. Depending on the hardness of your bar soap, you could also cut off a small amount that would fit in a container you already own.

      Reply ↓
    2. JSPA*

      A bottle is referenced in the question; additionally, as you point out, there’s nothing about having a soap be liquid that makes it questionable during pregnancy (whether it’s avoiding antibacterial agents, essential oils, or anything else).

      Basically, you need a small bottle from the travel aisle or a camping store that will not open even if upside down in a pocket or purse. Refill as needed.

      Reply ↓
    3. TeaCoziesRUs*

      Thank you!! I purchased a couple soap bars, knowing full well that I don’t ever use them, because they were pretty and smelled good. Now I’ll be able to actually use them! :)

      Reply ↓
    4. Elitist Semicolon*

      Using a veggie peeler to create soap curls that can be stored in a little plastic container and then used individually also works well!

      Reply ↓
  10. Hiring manager*

    #4 I’ve had a lot of experience hiring for roles besides my own, and have generally been happy with my judgement on those hires. However, when I’ve hired to replace myself, I’ve found that I have a narrower idea of what makes a good hire (someone with skills and an approach very close to my own!) and have been surprised that people who seemed like questionable hires because they’re so different from my skill set have generally done great in replacing me. I think this is particularly true for more varied roles where you’re not looking for one specialization, but instead lots of different profiles might excel at the job even if they do it quite differently. I don’t know if this is what’s happening or not, but I’d suggest considering whether your judgement might be overly narrow because it’s yourself that you’re trying to replace.

    Reply ↓
    1. bamcheeks*

      Yes, I was thinking this. One thing you are going to need to internalise, LW, is that you are not responsible for what happens to your role and your responsibilities after April! The you-shaped hole may get filled in a totally different way, and it may well be the case that eg. you completed certain functions in a very holistic way which was mindful of all the nuances and aware of how the process could support real evaluative content, it’ll simply be done as a bare administrative function for the next few years until someone else grows into the role. That’s actually very normal, and it can be difficult to see, but it’s ok.

      Of course it makes sense to do what you can now and try and ensure the knowledge you have is passsed on. But things like “is Janet ready to be promoted after I’ve gone” are not really your responsibility. Your successor will not be leaning heavily on your recommendation: they will have their own vision for the role and make their own judgments.

      Reply ↓
    2. Carbon copies*

      You said in a much nicer way what I was thinking. To some extent, every person has a somewhat unique skillset. A R&D engineer going into project management will fill a role differently than an office admin or somebody who worked in sales. OP shaped the role because of their skillset and the talks they were able to execute, not necessarily because the role required this skillset in the first place.

      OP, please let go of the idea that your successor should be a copy of you. It is OK to allow the role to change and develop.

      Reply ↓
      1. bamcheeks*

        I’ve just started a new job, and the previous person was a super mega organised project manager, and everything in her handover is a list of dates, actions, contacts, budgets, processes, dependencies and so on. I am big-picture, great at relationships, ask-lots-of-questions, look-for-opportunities, get-everyone-on-board-with-improvements person. I was fairly horrified when I saw the handover, and I suspect that she was equally horrified if she looked at my LinkedIn profile. But my manager assures me that it was deliberate and she wanted to take the role in a different direction!

        Reply ↓
    3. Sloanicota*

      Yes, something about OP’s letter seemed a little rigid to me. It’s always hard to think of someone “replacing you” (I’m going through this right now) – in fact I’d say that’s the hardest position to fill because your standards tend to be sky high. But I wouldn’t question a colleague’s judgement forever over a recc like this.

      Reply ↓
      1. HonorBox*

        Especially when a colleague is making a recommendation without the full needs of the role being shared. It is like OP is playing a game, hasn’t shared the rules, and then kicks someone out of the game because they’re playing incorrectly.

        Reply ↓
    4. Annony*

      This is especially true when the role is being restructured. Janet may have been thinking that Amy would be good and A and B while OP is focused on the fact that she doesn’t do C. Since it sounds like the job description hasn’t been finalized, I don’t think it is fair to say anything about Janet’s judgement since she very well could be thinking the role will be split differently than it OP is thinking.

      Reply ↓
    5. Cacofonix*

      I was just thinking that Amy begged Janet to put in a good word. The advice to simply ask Janet why should sort it out.

      Reply ↓
    6. JSPA*

      Yes, the yardstick almost automatically becomes, “could this person be me.” And often, “me, as I am now, when leaving for something better” not “me as I was when I first got here, and muddled through somehow.”

      #4, In this case, where they’re definitely planning to re-apportion job duties, the relevant question is expressly not “can someone instantly replace me as I now am.”

      It’s almost certainly the far more open-ended, “can this person reasonably be coached to reliably handle most of the core tasks of the job or be certified within a few months to the levels needed, with the other parts farmed out either temporarily or permanently.”

      When to speak up: if you see the proposed replacement as a confirmed and entrenched screw-up with no growth potential. Even more so, if you find them morally suspect in a business-relevant way, like theft or lying or claiming experience or certifications that they absolutely don’t have.

      But otherwise, you have to remember that it’s 100% OK if they are a bit green and under-equipped and unrealistic, such that this is a stretch role for them. People grow into roles all the time.

      There are exceptions, of course. Say you’re a trauma nurse, and they don’t know CPR or how to insert a catheter or can’t hit a vein to save their life (let alone somone else’s), then yeah, you probably do have to list out the remedial training they’d need.

      But anything where there’s a few days’ or weeks’ grace on learning a task, and nobody is going to directly die as a result of that learning curve? Meh.

      Look, you can always say that you’re surprised because you were not aware they had any interests or skills in tasks X, Y and Z, but you’d be glad to see them succeed. But it’s rarely the time to state categorically that someone will not be able to step up, and that the suggestion is shocking. (Especially if it turns out they’re sort of phoning in their current job because they’re actually overqualified and thus bored stupid.)

      Reply ↓
  11. NoSoap*

    OP3, I have severe eczema on my hands and cannot use real soap except in emergency. I also use a walker and cannot walk my very expensive non-stop cleanser back and forth. I have infrequently worked in an office where the closest bathroom was solely for my company, but most of the time it was shared with 2-3 others.

    I tape a sticky note with my name and company and another one with Do Not Remove/DonNot Use to the bottle. I would estimate it got used twice as fast as if I was the only one using it on average, and I’ve still had about a bottle a month completely disappear (I do not know if they were grabbed or trashed). However, if I didn’t include both notes it was much, much worse. So if you’re willing to accept some group usage in order to have it available for yourself I strongly recommend taping both types of notes to the bottle.

    BTW, every so often I’d walk in on someone else using my cleanser and generally people were not just unapologetic but gleeful about it. One once called me a sucker. So be prepared for that too.

    Good luck!

    Reply ↓
    4. Miss V*

      Ugh, people are so rude. That’s terrible.

      You mention that you can’t carry your soap back and forth because you use a walker. Would something like a walker bag/basket work for you? I’m going to reply to this comment with a link but if it doesn’t work you can just google ‘walker bag’ and see what I’m talking about.

      Reply ↓
      2. Seashell*

        I’ve never seen a walker bag, but I was similarly thinking of fanny pack or the bags that strap across the shoulder/body like a fanny pack. It may not be feasible if the soap container is too large, but just throwing the idea out there.

        Reply ↓
      3. KateM*

        An elderly relative of mine uses a walker with a children’s bicycle basket (meant to be put on bike’s handles, metal basket with hooks, no pictures so doesn’t look even remotely childish).

        Reply ↓
      4. Calamity Janine*

        there are also, instead of whole bags, cupholders that clip on! one of those might be just the right size for a bottle of cleanser.

        and if you’re going to engreeble your walker with gewgaws, i’m just saying, you can become a mobile artillery unit that the jerks can start to fear when they call you a sucker for using your soap*

        *don’t do this lol

        Reply ↓
  12. Arabesque*

    I had no idea you’re not supposed to use antibacterial products while pregnant. I’m 7 months pregnant with my second and I think my hand soap might be antibacterial. Should I be panicking?

    Reply ↓
    1. RT*

      The link Alison provided is an article that points out that most of the antibacterial products that are recommended to be avoided during pregnancy are no longer on the market.

      Reply ↓
        1. Beany*

          Isn’t this kind of unavoidable, though? When coming up with replacements for products with known issues, they test to make sure those issues don’t occur with the new product, but there’s only so much you can do unless you’re willing to wait a lifetime and make everyone else in the world a guinea pig.

          Reply ↓
          1. DJ Abbott*

            They could just stop with the chemicals. Who is saying they have to be used?
            Use alcohol to kill germs. Non-toxic in small quantities.

            Reply ↓
    2. Airy*

      Panicking isn’t a good idea in any circumstances. If all your check-ups, scans for seven months etc have been okay, you’re probably fine! A variety of antibacterial ingredients have been pulled due to a lack of safety evidence, but have not been proven to cause harm either. It’s an abundance of caution approach and LW is being extra careful because they had a stillbirth before. You can always change your soap, but truly, if you’re having adequate antenatal care and your doctor thinks everything looks good, you’re probably good. Ask them. I wish you all the very best with your coming baby.

      Reply ↓
    3. LadyAmalthea*

      It looks like the main offending ingredient was banned.

      I didn’t pay particular attention to the soap I used while pregnant because I wasn’t aware I had to, but, while pregnant, I was VERY scent sensitive and while that was more around food than hygiene products, I can see, especially in the first trimester, that ant sort of scent on hand soap could set off severe nausea.

      Reply ↓
    4. Emmy Noether*

      Ok, so this is sort of a pet peeve of mine.

      Of course it’s good that we are now paying attention to what may hurt the fetus (see: fetal alcohol poisoning, thalidomide). I’m also not into survivorship bias based arguments. Things HAVE gotten safer. And if you or the LW feel best following all that stuff, that’s a valid choice.

      BUT, the sheer number of things one is supposed to avoid because “safety has not been proven” or “may increase risk by 0.00000001%” is now really stressful itself. And guess what? Stress is also not good for the baby! so now one is stressed about being stressed. And if, heaven forfend, something does go wrong, there’s the guilt. “Maybe I could have been more perfect?” Even though in all probability, it had absolutely nothing to do with what one ate or used, because those effects are so, so tiny.

      I’m not going to go into my own stories, because it may just add something else to stress about, but I will say that it made me realize that a lot of those things aren’t about what is objectively safe or not. It’s a type of security theater. It’s pushing pregnant women to conform to a certain way of life. Luxuries, taking care of herself (including any medication) are “bad”. Natural, organic, doing it for baby are “good”. Never mind that raw fish isn’t actually, objectively more likely to cause food poisoning than salad. She MUST forego sushi and “load up on fresh produce” (citation from the article on the soap). Oh, but do eat lots of fish for the brain development. Except not THAT fish you like, because of heavy metals. It’s genuinely crazy making.

      I ran into another pregnant woman at a seminar once who was nearly crying because there was nothing she felt safe to eat at lunch. That’s not helpful!
      That linked article recommends avoiding socks that may have traces of an antibacterial agent. Socks!! Come on! Am I now supposed to control what common substances my skin may touch? Can I even leave the house anymore?

      For my second pregnancy, I decided screw it. I was avoiding the big, proven, easy to avoid things, and otherwise ignoring that stuff. Personally, I felt much better that way.

      Again, I’m not saying everyone should handle it like me. If it gives you a sense of control to follow every one of those avoidance recommendations you come across, you do you. I’d also assist anyone who required my help doing so, no judgement. I just don’t think it’s the only valid option.

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      2. Spooz*

        I 100% agree. Blanket statements are loaded onto pregnant women with no context. It makes the whole thing hugely stressful as everyone’s banging on about “risk” all the time without explaining HOW much risk OF WHAT.

        For instance, did you know that previously frozen raw fish is fine, which almost all chain restaurant sushi is? Tuck in, ladies!!!

        I did a lot of research into that in my first pregnancy and came to my own conclusions about what I thought was reasonable. I have had to take various medications in pregnancy and while breastfeeding and pushed back on the inconvenient ones (endless shots in the leg) to ask WHY they are unsafe. WHAT is the risk and HOW does it work? So sometimes I did take the doctors recommendations and sometimes I decided I’d take the miniscule risk of basically nothing happening.

        Pregnant women are infantilised and demonised. I would urge all pregnant women to ask questions of anyone who says something is “unsafe” during pregnancy. Often it means “untested” or “1 in a thousand billion risk that the baby might sneeze a few times”.

        Don’t be cavalier if you don’t want to be. Avoid ALL the things if you like! But it should be YOUR INFORMED choice and ime it usually isn’t.

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        1. Jill Swinburne*

          The thing with sushi isn’t the fish so much as the rice when you don’t know how long it’s been sitting out. I solved this problem by making my own and now I’m really good at it, lol.

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        2. Emmy Noether*

          Speaking of infantilizing. During my first pregnancy, I developed a splitting headache for several days (in addition to the nausea and fatigue. I was not well.) I finally could not take it anymore and went to the pharmacy to ask what was safe to take and had to practically beg them to give me anything. The pharmacist wanted me to rub peppermint essential oil on my temples instead! I had to promise to try the oil and only take a pill if it didn’t work (it did not).

          Second pregnancy, I downloaded an app that referenced data on different medication and substances during pregnancy, and made my own decisions.

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          1. Annony*

            Some of that was probably more worry about liability than being infantilizing. Pregnancy is an exclusion criteria for most drug trials. So we honestly do not know what is safe and doing a study to figure it out would mean deliberately exposing some pregnant women to an unknown risk. So if you ask what is proven to be safe the answer is very little. But most medications are not actually proven to be dangerous either. Their effect on fetal development are simply unknown.

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            1. Emmy Noether*

              I disagree. Paracetamol is generally considered safe in low doses during pregnancy (as recommended, for example, by the NHS, the German and Swiss health authorities, and also my gynecologist, and a different pharmacist at another time). There’s no liability in following official recommendations. Another source I found stated that 50% of pregnant women have taken it, which of course isn’t a study, and thus not proof, but you’d think major problems would have been noticed. Also, there actually are studies on paracetamol during pregnancy specifically, which found no effects for low doses, and potential effects for high doses over prolonged periods (but that were difficult to distinguish from effects of the underlying conditions causing the need to take it in the first place).

              But the actual infantilizing part is this: The pharmacist did NOT say “there have been no studies confirming safety, so taking it is a risk” (which I can deal with as a responsible adult). He DID hem and haw and say “I’d rather not you take anything. Try this essential oil instead, it’s natural”. (I bet there haven’t been studies showing the safety of essential oils during pregnancy, either, but that he felt fine recommending).

              This was one guy (and other pharmacists have been great!), but it exemplifies a common phenomenon. A lot of the info out there is not: “here’s what we know, these are the risks”. It’s: “absolutely do not ever! You will put the baby in danger!”

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              1. Turquoisecow*

                Yeah agreed you can 100% take paracetamol/acetaminophen/Tylenol while pregnant, in fact by OB told me specifically TO take that instead of ibuprofen/aspirin. Definitely don’t take it to excess (no one should) but for headaches/back aches/etc it’s totally fine.

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      3. Nebula*

        Only tangentially related to your comment here, but my gran took thalidomide to help with morning sickness for her first two pregnancies, then it was banned so she didn’t have it for the next two. My aunt and uncle who were the result of the thalidomide pregnancies were fine, no issues. So my gran was sort of wistful about thalidomide, which sounds bad, but I can totally understand why. Knowing that there’s something which can straight up cure your morning sickness (it worked very well for her) that you can absolutely under no circumstances take again – and which you were unknowingly putting your children at risk by taking before – must have sucked so badly.

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        1. Totally Minnie*

          My mom has a digestive illness that kicked into overdrive when she was pregnant with me. Her doctor prescribed a medication for her and said “it hasn’t been thoroughly tested in pregnancy, but we know that if you can’t eat, it’s not going to be good for you or the baby.” I ended up totally fine!

          In a lot of cases, I think the restrictions are things like my mom’s medication, where it’s generally considered safe but hasn’t been tested in pregnancy, so a lot of the common advice will say it’s safer not to try. but if you talk with your doctor about it, they may be able to help you decide on what calculated risks feel okay for you.

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      4. Michigander*

        I remember I had an app for my first pregnancy (I forget which) and there was a section where you could check foods. Every food was either dangerous or the note said something along the lines of “this should be fine but check with your doctor in case you can’t eat it for some reason”, and all I could think of is how annoyed my midwife would probably be if I was calling every day to ask if I could eat a banana or toast.

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        1. Guacamole Bob*

          The cultural shift from “pregnancy complications and loss caused by listeria are a rare and tragic accident” to “it is the responsibility of each individual who is pregnant to avoid all foods that have ever been known to carry listeria” is such a mess. Basically any food served straight from the fridge can carry it, and there have been outbreaks impacting a wide array of produce. So only eat hot foots, but get plenty of fruits and veggies, and don’t stress! Enjoy your pregnancy, it’s such a magical time!

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      6. Falling Diphthong*

        I’m joining on the pet peeve of “Make sure you don’t do these 200 things, all of which might actually be fine, we don’t know!” delivered in the same breath as “And don’t be stressed! That is a very bad choice you made, being stressed!”

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        1. Great Frogs of Literature*

          My grandmother (a nurse) gave my mother a book that was recommended at the time, which, as my mother describes it, basically said that the pregnant person had to be happy all the time or would Ruin The Baby Forever. Luckily, my mom had enough sense to go, “So if I’m not happy that I can’t keep any food down, I then also get to feel guilty about it?!”

          She took the book back to grandma and told her that no pregnant person should ever be forced to read it.

          (And, it case it needs to be said, mom was NOT deliriously happy her entire pregnancy, and I turned out fine.)

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          1. Anonymous for this little comment*

            The Sawbones podcast has a whole episode about how old-timey people thought about pregnancy. It’s fascinating and terrible that until recently (possibly the advent of the germ theory of disease, less than 200 years ago?) people truly believed that if you experienced something scary or stressful or even *thought* or *dreamed* about something scary while you were pregnant, that would cause your baby to be disabled (using the modern term here b/c the old-timey words for such things are awful) or worse. Totally ridiculous. Of course things that people do during pregnancy can affect the baby, but you’re not going to have an unhealthy child simply because you had a nightmare about werewolves or whatever. And it’s really awful how much of a baby’s health or lack thereof was blamed on the pregnant person (all of it, honestly, even when someone else was the cause of whatever the pregnant person was experiencing).

            Times are, at least, a little better now? Maybe?

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      7. Shiara*

        Another part of this is that the warnings are usually about “high levels” of x, but once you start digging into it the research is something along the lines of “we injected a pregnant mouse with half its bodyweight of x daily for a week and the pregnancy developed problems” and to get a comparable amount as a human, you’d have to basically spend all your time consuming/dousing yourself in X. But since we don’t know where the line is, the recommendation is to avoid it entirely.

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        1. Testing*

          Yup, a lot of the ”XYZ causes cancer (in mice)” headlines are reports of reports of studies like this.

          No one’s drinking 20 liters of diet soft drinks per day, and if they do, cancer is not going to be their main problem.

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      8. Annika Hansen*

        My sister was told not have peanut butter because it may cause her child to be allergic. My sister knew she couldn’t get through a pregnancy/breastfeeding without peanut butter so she decided to risk it. 10 years later, the experts were saying to eat peanuts when pregnant/breastfeeding to help prevent peanut allergies. Neither of her children developed peanut allergies.

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        1. Emmy Noether*

          The allergy thing is wild! Basically the initial recommendation to avoid allergens was based on nothing but a hunch. Once actual studies were done, turned out the reverse is true. Oops!

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      9. Anonymous for this little comment*

        10000000% this, Emmy! I recently read Belabored by Lyz Lenz, about pregnancy and birth and postnatal care. One of her main points was that once someone becomes pregnant, so many health care providers suddenly start seeing the fetus as the patient and the pregnant person as (as someone else said below) merely a vessel for the fetus and not also a patient whose needs should be attended to. So, there’s all this info and non-info out there about what’s safe for the fetus that the pregnant person should avoid, but health care providers (in the US, anyway) pay very little attention to what the pregnant person might need to stay healthy.

        This is especially true for mental health. As I am trying to become pregnant in the next few months, I was told by the doctor I should avoid my ADHD stimulant meds (which are amphetamines, btw), but then spoke to a genetics counselor who said that there’s precious little research on stimulant meds and pregnancy, and a lot of the research is on cases of amphetamine abuse and not on people using small amounts of it to help control their ADHD symptoms. I said I’d probably be ok not using it during pregnancy but the counselor said it’s important to take care of myself during pregnancy too and if I need the meds, I should take them.

        And as Emmy points out, a lot of what pregnant people are told to avoid is because safety has not been proven and of course researchers are loathe to do any safety trials on pregnant people (and with good reason! see: thalidomide). There is some data on meds people have taken during pregnancy and how their infants responded, and that is good to have.

        Anyway, my TL;DR is that pregnant people are patients too! And it’s very important to treat them like human beings and not just vessels for the next generation.

        Reply ↓
        1. Emmy Noether*

          All the luck in the world for your offspring project! May the future pregnancy be breezy and the baby a ray of sunshine. I agree with your counselor : take care of yourself, too. You matter. You sound thoughtful and prepared, which is really the most we can try to be. There’s so much that’s just unknowable and unplannable.

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          1. Anonymous for this little comment*

            “You sound thoughtful and prepared…” That’s what happens when you spend a decade trying to get pregnant…hoping this time it works! I have always been interested in pregnancy and I therefore know a LOT about it, especially for someone who’s never actually been pregnant. Thank you for your kind thoughts!

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      10. Healthcare Professional tired of hearing "we need more studies" with zero nuance*

        I think it’s also important to know that we will probably never know for sure if a lot of chemicals actually carry risks and how big that risk is. Simply because of medical/research ethics, a study investigating this kind of thing will never be aproved because it would involve exposing the mom and fetus to something that may be harmful. So most of the studies we have will be retrospective correlation studies that are flawed by nature since correlation doesn’t equal causation.

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    5. WS*

      The reason in this case is that some common antibacterial ingredients fall into the category of endocrine disruptors, which is getting a lot of focus right now because of the accumulation of them in human bodies. In this case, they’re being declared not safe because you want to minimise the quantity of endocrine disruptors to which your fetus is exposed. But the exposure you get from sometimes using triclosan-containing soap is absolutely tiny compared to, say, people who live in agricultural areas and are frequently exposed to pesticides, or are breathing wildfire smoke for long periods of time. Definitely do not panic!

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      1. Defying Gravity*

        I absolutely love this thread. I had two “geriatric” and extremely medically complicated pregnancies achieved by IVF. I was a super freaked out pregnant person. But I absolutely refused to bow to this patriarchal notion that I was a vessel and basically everything in my environment was a danger to the baby. I ate sushi (as noted above, all restaurant sushi must be pre-frozen in the US) and deli meat (listeria is extraordinarily rare think like 25 people in the US per year – and even if contracted is generally not serious). I couldn’t believe the list of things I was not supposed to eat. I used common sense and felt comfortable with that decision.

        I literally never once heard anyone mention antibacterial soaps as restricted (this was within the last five years but I don’t know if anything has changed.).

        Reply ↓
        1. Carolyn*

          My OB gave me a booklet with a list of things pregnant people aren’t supposed to eat and then said you can still eat deli meat — if you get listeriosis from deli meat while pregnant, go out and buy a lottery ticket because the odds are so unlikely

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        2. bamcheeks*

          Completely randomly, my booking-in midwife was the younger sister of someone I’d known at school, and she gave me a concerned look when I said I had drunk one (1!) beer before I’d got a positive pregnancy test. I was on the verge of shouting, “you are Pippi Longstocking’s little sister! I remember you being 8! And your sister drank more than the rest of the class put together! How very dare you give me A Look!”

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          1. Nebula*

            Remember when the WHO said that “appropriate attention” should be given to “prevention of drinking among women of childbearing age”? Lol. Lmao. They did later state that they weren’t saying that all women of childbearing age should abstain from alcohol entirely but… they also didn’t make clear what they were actually saying? And it seems a lot like they just took that bit out of subsequent drafts of the document because it caused such a furore.

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        3. Rock Prof*

          I’m a vegetarian so deli meat and most sushi wasn’t even on my radar when I was pregnant, but I did have cravings for honeydew and other melons. I learned about a month after my kid was born that there was some advisement to avoid those too. I probably would have ignored that advice anyway, truthfully.

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        4. Elspeth*

          Thank you for sharing – my husband and I are planning to try to get pregnant in the next year and I will also be a “geriatric” mother. I have a lot of mental hang-ups with pregnancy, mostly around the lack of control and feeling like / being treated as an incubator rather than a whole person. I also plan to take reasonable risks in regard to sushi/deli meats/etc. as I feel it will be helpful for my mental health to continue partaking (as safely as possible) in some of the things I most enjoy. I appreciate knowing that I’m not alone. I hope that I can find an OBGYN who will support me and help me navigate some of these choices.

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    6. Michigander*

      You should not! I can’t blame the LW for being overly cautious after a stillbirth. It’s a horrible, horrible thing to go through and I can’t imagine how scary it is to be pregnant again after that. I’d probably want to take every precaution imaginable too after that to try to build a sense of security. But I would venture to guess that most pregnant women (myself included) use whatever soap is available without a second thought, and are completely fine. As Emmy Noether says, there is a lot of fear-mongering involved in the recommendations for pregnant women when in actuality a lot of it is not going to make a difference.

      Reply ↓
    7. Smurfette*

      Panicking won’t make any difference except to stress you (and baby). Speak to your doctor about the products you’ve been using and get their opinion.

      Reply ↓
      1. bleh*

        So much yes to pregnant people eating and drinking (and washing with) what they want. Go safe. Live a little. Whatever.

        I had colleagues who had strangers in the grocery store try to take things out of their cart! I mean, there could be other people in the home who eat or drink whatever you are worried about. But also, it is so so so none of your business.

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    8. Fiona*

      I read “Expecting Better” by Emily Oster while pregnant and I found it very calming. She gives a lot of research-based guidance and basically says the only thing that is really, truly, absolutely proven to be dangerous is smoking and binge-drinking alcohol during pregnancy. Everything else has varying levels of risk (some overblown by media or word-of-mouth) and individuals will need to assess for themselves as far as their own risk tolerance.

      Congrats on your pregnancy!

      Reply ↓
      1. Totally Minnie*

        For the “overblown by the media” portion of this, be especially wary when a news article says something can double or triple your risk of (insert complication here). Sometimes doubling the risk is something to be concerned about, other times it means that the risk went from 0.01% to 0.02% so even the increased risk is still quite low. But news outlets know you’re more likely to click on the article if the headline is a splashy “this thing you eat every day could double your risk of (insert bad and scary thing here)!”

        Reply ↓
    9. JennyEm56*

      I actually participated in a study examining the role of many things (including anti-bacterial soap) on pregnancy. The now kid that was in the study is a healthy 10 year old, so take what you will from that, even though I had high levels of phalates in me during pregnancy.

      They really don’t know the impact of some of these household chemicals on developing babies, if there are any. But I can say they’re definitely looking over time (my kid is still being studied). Really, it comes down to your values and your risk tolerance vs convenience. Read Emily Oster for some data-driven relief.

      Reply ↓
    10. Calamity Janine*

      to be rather pragmatic in a way that would make embryologists happy –

      at seven months? nah.

      humans are, relatively speaking as a species, very quick to mash the big red eject button… at the start of the pregnancy. the foundational first steps are where you can end up with really big effects for relatively small amounts of something. (and unless you’ve been drinking the antibacterial soap, it’s going to be a very small amount indeed that actually gets in you, much less enough to have your baby in there going “hmm, do i detect some notes of Listerine in today’s vintage from the umbilical cord?”)

      at seven months, the foundations have been laid, the walls have been constructed, and it’s on to the detail work. that detail work can still be pretty important, mind you – in the same way that houses we live in should probably have things in them like “tile in the bathroom” or “stairs to walk up and down”. but the house is mostly complete. you can spend a night there sleeping on the subfloor in your sleeping bag. it’s far past the time where the foreman can go “wow, that is the worst foundation i have ever seen anyone pour. we gotta start over from scratch. this house is not getting built.” the house is already mostly built.

      you’re well outside of the scariest bit, is what i am saying. so don’t worry about it. you’re okay.

      unless you’re starting the day by necking back two bottles of lysol in which case maybe don’t do that. but that applies to nonpregnant people also. just generally don’t do that, i feel like that’s very sensible advice for humans lol

      in conclusion: i really should put “metaphors tortured while-u-wait” in my username

      Reply ↓
  13. Julie*

    Years ago I started a new job in November as an entry-level employee. When I interviewed I told them I would need time off at Christmas to visit my family out of state. It was not a problem getting the time although it was without pay as I hadn’t accrued vacation time yet. I was fine with that and they were too.

    Reply ↓
    2. Paint N Drip*

      Totally normal. At my current job I was interviewing perhaps 6 weeks before my wedding – just discussed my needs during the interview process, and all was well.
      To OP2 I don’t think that being new (to the workforce, to the job) means you need to forgo all human needs – take those sick days when you need them, get a grasp on the culture and work with your boss to take reasonable vacation time that meets your needs, and if you are wondering about the norms I’d recommend poking around the place you’re working before seeking outside opinions (especially this particular friend)

      Reply ↓
  14. AndyKW*

    LW3: I need to use specific soap for my eczema. I definitely found that the best way to handle it is to put the soap in a container that’s small enough that I can carry it everywhere. For me, that’s attached to my keys, but maybe your clothes have more pockets (or belt loops) or you have an ID on a lanyard.

    If your soap of choice is liquid, then a travel hand sanitizer container with a loop is probably your best bet.

    My soap of choice is a bar, and I’ve made it work after some trial and error. Take bar soap and a micro-grater (like one advertised for chocolate, etc) and grate the soap it into a large container with a lid. I shake mine for a while at this point, because it makes the pieces even smaller, but that might depend on the particular soap. Decant some of it into a container, which might be a travel hand sanitizer container or an empty lip balm container.

    The key here is attaching the soap container to yourself so that you don’t have to go back to your desk for it.

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    1. AndyKW*

      Oh, hygiene: This is part of why I find the bar soap better; I usually put the liquid/dry soap in my non-dominant hand before I finish in the stall so that I don’t need to touch the container later. Doable with the liquid, but much less likely to make a mess with the dry/bar soap.

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  15. Ainvancouver*

    For OP #3 re hand soap. I am very sensitive to fragrances and prefer to use my own soap. I make a dilute mix if my usual hand soap and water. Then I soak strips of muslin – any cotton fabric will do – in the mix. I dry the strips on a non porous surface and cut them into about 3″ square. Hold one of the in your palm when you put your hand under the water. You can get a nice lather and wash your hands with something familiar.

    It is a bit of a fuss to do, but if you store the squares in a ziplock bag, they last a long time.

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  16. Soap*

    What type of work do you do, soap person? Can you mention to HR or facilities that the soap isn’t considered safe? My children and family focused office switched from antibacterial soap after realizing it wasn’t the best idea for pregnant people can you make a similar case?

    Reply ↓
    1. OP*

      I work for a nonprofit that rents an office for me in a “shared working space” building. there is no room for pumping and my office has clear glass doors with no shade. we also don’t have ventilation/heat/ac in our offices so I have to use a space heater every day and can rarely warm up my office past 60°F. The company I work for and the owners of the building know and do not seem to care, so they’re definitely not going to help me with the soap

      Reply ↓
      1. Jennifer Strange*

        I’m sure you know this, but in case you don’t, if you’re in the US your organization is REQUIRED BY LAW to provide you with a private room with a lock that isn’t a bathroom so that you can pump if you choose.

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  17. Not That Jane*

    LW3, I’m sorry about your daughter. As a fellow loss mom (my daughter died at 3 days old), I can empathize with how hard and scary it is to be pregnant again after such a devastating and traumatic experience. I guess I just want to say I see you <3

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  18. Chocolate Teapot*

    2. In my experience of having more days of holiday in Europe than the US, there is usually a rule that you can only carry over a fixed number of days from one year to another so the remainder need to be used during the year.

    I once started a new job on a Monday and took the Friday off for a pre-arranged trip to see family for an anniversary party. Events of this kind, which can’t be rescheduled, are usually the reason for taking time off just after starting. That said my previous job employed a badly needed new person who had so many holidays booked that they didn’t work a full week for the 6 months they were there!

    Reply ↓
    1. KateM*

      I have had the impression that something similar is true in USA, too. One, the unused vacation time that needs to be paid out is a liability; two, a good employer would want employees to be not overworked.

      Reply ↓
      1. Totally Minnie*

        There aren’t any national policies on paid leave in the US. Some states will have their own requirements, but mostly you’re just at the mercy of whatever policy your company has, if any. Some companies have a policy that your unused leave rolls over into the next year, others have “use it or lose it” policies. Some companies have a policy to pay out unused vacation when you resign, others don’t.

        Reply ↓
        1. KateM*

          If it rolls over, then employer will not want a huge amount of paid leave hanging over their heads.
          If it doesn’t roll over, then it would be outright stupid of employee not to use it – you could as well refuse to take part of your salary.

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    2. Emma (UK)*

      yeah the UK is more in line with the rest of Europe on this one. Annual leave days usually can’t be easily carried over (or you can only carry over a couple) and if they’re not used, you lose them.

      there’s no legal requirement for you to use them BUT a lot of companies have policies to make sure/strongly encourage their employees to use all their annual leave days, sometimes at least partly because they don’t like you to carry any over.

      And also, the law does say that the employer must have made it reasonably possible for an employee to take all their leave (or at least the legally required minimum), and if the employee doesn’t take it all, the employer needs to be able to show they made it reasonably possible for them to have taken it and encouraged them to do so.

      the legal requirement is 28 days which, for most “regular” office workers is usually given as 20 days plus the bank holidays (new year’s day, Christmas day, boxing day, Easter Fri and Mon, and the three other bank holidays in may and August).

      Employers *can* insist you take all your leave when they tell you to rather than when it’s convenient for you (most often the case for school teachers). Or they can say “everyone gets a week off at Christmas and that comes from your existing allocation” whether you would have wanted to use it then or not. Or “no one can take off time in June”. etc

      it’s also the norm to receive all of your leave at the start of the year rather than accrue it across the year. Most Brits don’t even realise they’re doing this. They just know “I can book 20 days off this year and I could take it all within the first couple months if I want”. If you start halfway through a year you’ll get a opro-rata’d amount until the next refresh date (which may or may not be the calendar year).

      the “don’t take too much leave too early in a new job” thing is a also thing here but nowhere close to the level of the friend in the above letter.

      it would be like “probably don’t take a week+ in one go within the first couple months” especially due to the break this may cause in training/onboarding/adjusting to the role etc.

      Still, it wouldn’t be ridiculous, especially in all cases or all jobs to take this amount of leave early but most people would probably not unless it felt a little unavoidable.

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      1. londonedit*

        Yeah, we have a probation period where I work and the supposed rule is that you’re not meant to take holiday during that, but in reality if someone has a pre-booked holiday then the employer is going to honour that! And then as you say we have a legally required amount of annual leave and employers want people to use it – where I work you can carry over up to 5 days but they have to be used in the first three months of the next holiday year. It isn’t the same as in the US where people have one ‘bucket’ of leave and therefore want to keep saving it up in case they’re ill. Holiday is holiday here, sick leave is different, and although we do accrue leave in the same way as in the US in reality you’re given your 20 or 25 days at the start of the year (some companies do it by calendar year, others by financial year) and they’re yours to use as you see fit.

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        1. Media Monkey*

          but in most cases if you took all of your 28 day entitlement before June and then left, you would need to pay back salary for the extra days you had taken as your holiday entitlement would be half of the 28 days, so 14.

          Reply ↓
          1. londonedit*

            Yes, of course – but I’m talking about this situation, where you’re in ongoing employment or you’ve just started a new job, and you’re not planning to leave in the near future. I’m planning to still be employed in my current role this time next year, so even though it’s February I can happily book my Christmas break and two weeks off in the summer if I want to. I don’t have to wait until I’ve technically accrued enough leave.

            Reply ↓
      2. Lexi Vipond*

        New people here used to accrue days at the rate of whatever a month until they hit January 1st and got the full allocation for the new leave year, but I think they now just get a pro rata allocation when they join.

        But even in the old days if someone had joined in May and wanted to be away for two weeks in July they’d probably have been allowed to ‘borrow’ from their leave for later in the year – better that than having them away for two weeks in October while teaching is going on. So it just depends on how things work out, and if you encourage people to be away at certain times of the year.

        Reply ↓
        1. KateM*

          Once I was hired in June and took three weeks off in July – actually my employer suggested I do so because it was slow. :) It did mean borrowing and it took the rest of year to earn it back, but I like to have holidays when the rest of my family (schoolchildren and university professor) has, so I was good.

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  19. JSPA*

    #1, treating it as a microphone / technical issue / functional boundary / road to being ignored is another way to go.

    “Fergus, when you raise your voice, it causes distortion and makes you harder to understand. In addition, some people understandably refuse to be yelled at or to be subject to barely-understandable distortion, so they mute you, and then I then need to circle back with them. It will be more productive and keep you fully in the conversation if you keep even your strongest objections fully within the bounds of regular speech volumes.”

    If he blusters about that being their loss,

    “Nevertheless, assuming you’re speaking because you want people to hear what you’re saying, making those changes will help that happen.”

    If he blusters about technical specs,

    “I’m not going to debate reality with you. I’d prefer to hear your input clearly, and to have everyone else hear it, too. You now have that feedback–the ball’s in your court.”

    Reply ↓
    1. Totally Minnie*

      I feel like this is a lot. I’d honestly start with “please don’t raise your voice.” There’s no need to bring in the tech reasons why raising your voice causes problems, he’s raising his voice and he shouldn’t be, so just ask him to not do that, and say it every time he starts getting ramped up.

      Reply ↓
      1. JSPA*

        My understanding is that the LW is looking for suggestions of things that is likely to work; not (or not only) affirmation that she has the right to make the request (which everyone, including Alison, has already validated).

        In technical fields, I find that people often respond faster and more smoothly to a technical prompt / appeal to fixing a shared problem, than they do to a personal request / demand / command.

        So I’m tossing in a useful technical prompt.

        If you want a shorter real-time version, it’s “Fergus, you’re cutting out when you raise your voice.” The longer version is more appropriate for an email.

        It’s also useful in dealing with people who feel it is snowflake-y for anyone to have an opinion on their speaking style; almost nobody tries to argue with “the machine can’t handle your speaking style.”

        Reply ↓
  20. Chelsea Bun*

    OP 4, yes you’re overreacting. You’re retiring, you don’t change your opinion of an employee and their career path based on a single recommendation, that would be very odd indeed. Especially if you haven’t even followed up and talked to her about it.

    Reply ↓
    1. HonorBox*

      And at worst, the recommendation was made too early without full knowledge of the role. You’ve not fully briefed your staff on the needs of this role, so you can’t hold a recommendation against them if you’ve not painted the entire picture. That’s on you, not on Janet.

      Reply ↓
  21. Michigander*

    The advice in letter 2 feels like maybe it came from the friend’s parents. It has the same feel as a lot of baby boomer job advice, where maybe it made sense 50 years ago but doesn’t anymore. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s something her parents told her when she got her first job and she’s just never questioned it.

    Reply ↓
  22. 653-CXK*

    OP#2: I’m with Allison on this one – OP#2’s best friend has warped workplace norms and this advice sounds like gumption to impress the new employer. Perfect attendance is an invitation to burnout; running errands during lunch time can be difficult; and working while sick, especially in the era of pandemics, is a huge no-no.

    Safely, but politely, disregard this advice. Take the time off when you need to or have to.

    Reply ↓
  23. Jason*

    #3: Ask for an accommodation. The new(-ish) Pregnant Workers Fairness Act requires employers to provide accommodations to pregnant workers, very similarly to how disabled workers are entitled to them. Swapping out the hand soap in one bathroom, especially if its only for a few months, doesn’t sound like a significant burden for the company and is exactly the type of accommodation that is probably required under that law.

    Reply ↓
      1. Samwise*

        It means telling HR, which should not be sharing the details about why with anyone. OP can tell HR not to share the reasons and just request the accommodation. No one in OP’s office would even need to know the soap has changed, unless someone in the office is in charge of changing the soap. (In our office thats housekeeping, which is a separate dept)

        Reply ↓
  24. Hiring Mgr*

    LW 4 – sounds like a big overreaction to me. You’re retiring in two months and you might tank this person’s promotion track because of one iffy recommendation? Rethink this!

    Reply ↓
    1. Smurfette*

      Especially when you haven’t even discussed it with them. That’s a huge overreaction (and makes me question *your* judgement, frankly).

      Reply ↓
    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Agreed. If anything, I think this should make you rethink *your* assessment of Amy and think what other people are seeing that makes them think she’d be a good fit for this role. You supervise her, you’re probably right if you don’t think she has the core skills – but maybe she’s displaying strengths in her work that you’re completely overlooking.

      Reply ↓
      1. Question 4!*

        I posted more about this below. I left out a key detail. Amy has 5 years of experience. She does not have the needed skills for this role–not just because she only has 5 years of experience but she has some time management issues and her judgement on some decisions aren’t quite on the mark. I’m not missing anything there. I know from the email Janet (who also has 5 years of experience) is reacting to some support Amy has given her when she took on some new projects Amy was more familiar with. And Amy is a very supportive co-worker, she is good with new staff and I’m trying to increase her role in that department.

        But I agree, I overreacted to Janet’s email because I was just really surprised she would suggest this. I’m looking at it as a little bit of professional immaturity combined with the fact that my staff do seem to feel comfortable coming to me about issues.

        Reply ↓
  25. LaminarFlow*

    LW1……Ugh, I feel for you. I am a woman in tech, and have (unfortunately) worked with many guys like Fergus. IDK what their problem is, but their behavior is really inappropriate. As Alison suggested, a very calm “Please stop raising your voice” works pretty well. I have had to deploy this method A LOT. But, other people who are sick of the overbearing behavior sometimes pick up on my vibe, and they follow my lead with these clods. As you mention in your letter, I have also asked “Are you ok?” and “Do you need a moment?” A Fergus won’t really know what those things mean, but hearing them enough could give him pause.

    Also! Tell your manager about this inappropriate behavior. Fergus should be on some sort of behavior performance plan. I guarantee you are not the only one who feels belittled and trampled by him. Mention every instance of this to your manager, and if you have close relationships with others who are also done with sweeping his crappy behavior under the rug, ask them to bubble up this feedback. I realize that this second part may not have the biggest effect on things – Fergus has been there a long time, and everyone just expects this from him, and if his work is really good, management might not care that he’s so difficult. But, there’s power in numbers, and the more data points you can supply to management, the better.

    Reply ↓
  26. I should really pick a name*

    Unless your company sucks, you can use all the vacation time available to you in your first year.

    Best practice is to not take it right away, but it’s there for you to use.

    Reply ↓
    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      And if you accrue it at any kind of standard rate, you can use it as it becomes available. That’s the point of accrual.

      If you get it front loaded – then sure, get aligned on expectations around the first few months. But after that you’re an established employee and you should have access to your benefits like anyone else.

      Reply ↓
    2. Calamity Janine*

      “The FDA made them stop putting known harmful chemicals, so they just replaced them with others that have unknown effects” part two electric boogaloo: turns out that the company promising to not do that may not save you, lol!

      when the FDA takes action against a company for mislabeled and adulterated products, well, you know it’s gotten bad enough for them to do so… and that means it’s gotten very bad indeed.

      friends, romans, countrymen, lend me your ears: you gotta be able to spot bunkum even when it’s pretending to be the hippieful chemical-free perfection you hope it would be. they, too, will be focused on what they can sell without caring for what’s in their product – and even more so, if we are being honest, because they think that if they’ve already sold you on their alternative lifestyle, then they’ve got you hooked on that and don’t have to actually sell you results.

      or even unadulterated products.

      Reply ↓
  27. I should really pick a name*

    #4
    Definitely talk to someone before you decide that one decision completely changes your view of how competent they are.

    Reply ↓
  28. el l*

    OP2:
    Does your friend have a habit of taking common sense ideas, and then pushing them to extremes? Or an impulse towards purity (“never ever do x” rather than “don’t usually”)?

    Because that makes way more sense than the logic she outlines. This is about showing you’re reliable. Not some fanatical or manipulative game.

    Reply ↓
    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I think saying the friend is playing a manipulative game or is fanatical is harsh. There are jobs where you did not get vacation or sick time for 1 year, and if you had to take time off you were looked down at and slightly reprimanded. So if the friend has had bad jobs like that she may think that it is typical to not be able to take time off for a year.

      Reply ↓
  29. Smurfette*

    OP5, it sounds to me as though there was no discussion about your cancellation fee with the original organisation? Is that correct? In which case you wouldn’t have anything documented to send them. In that case I’m assuming the only thing you can do it refer them to industry standards and hope for the best.

    Perhaps if there are other speakers who were cancelled (who would also not have contracts) you could push back as a group for them to pay a cancellation fee.

    Reply ↓
  30. SAS*

    LW1, I LOVE your “do you need a moment to calm down?” idea!! This, along with the other commenter who suggested to start using the word “emotional” would be my passive aggressive aces in the pocket.

    I was going to suggest otherwise keeping calm and professional, but it is annoying that he’s not receiving any negative feedback and is probably only reinforcing to himself that his yelling is “working”. I personally would avoid Alison’s suggested phrase of “please stop raising your voice”, I’ve found there’s almost no way to say it as a woman that isn’t perceived as emotional (or emotionally manipulative)- even when being dry as a as bone!!

    “Yelling is making this really unpleasant for everyone” is a good, yet perplexed, call out of the behaviour directly. What an awful man.

    Reply ↓
  31. HonorBox*

    LW5 – You may hear “no” but there’s no harm in sending an invoice. Especially if you have some email exchanges or can get someone from the old org to verify that they had booked you as a speaker, I think there’s no harm in sending something. Clearly the new org cancelled your appearance. You know the timeframe, and you also know how many other opportunities you’d turned down. I think there’s certainly a case to be made that they owe you something…

    Reply ↓
  32. Ellis Bell*

    I really want to know if OP2’s friend is a victim of Parental Advice(tm) or is in a toxic job. So my instructions to OP1 are to pour your friend a drink, ask her where she is getting these ideas, and then update us. Oh, and obviously take your own sick days as needed, and vacation time – just don’t do it on weeks when you’ve got onboarding, training and/or other things you are especially required to be there for.

    Reply ↓
  33. Somehow I Manage*

    OP4 – Yes. You are overreacting. You wrote the following: “I’ve shared with my staff that the plan is being developed and that I will tell them everything I know as soon as I know it.”

    You’re retiring in April. So you’re somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 days away from that. I get that things might be taking some time to gel, but you need to give the staff some grace in that there’s probably uncertainty in their lives, compounded by the fact that you’ve not yet been able to share everything. Janet made a recommendation that doesn’t fit, but she doesn’t know everything about the role because no one has shared that. You can’t hold that against her. And you most definitely shouldn’t be changing your long term outlook about her. Talk to her. Let her know why. And if you do think she has opportunity to move up, give her information that helps her understand why this isn’t a good fit. She’s going to need that as she moves up AND she deserves information not judgement.

    Reply ↓
    1. Question 4!*

      Thanks for responding! I did leave out some context, which I shared below, namely the years of experience these 2 employees have. I do think my initial reaction was a bit over the top and I think I was just taken aback a bit. I’ve had a few meetings with the employee who emailed me (not about this) and I’m reassured that my initial instincts about her abilities are correct. Oddly enough, she would actually be ready to take on this role sooner than the person she recommended.

      Reply ↓
      1. Somehow I Manage*

        I appreciate the context! Thank you! And I’ll say, there are times I’ve been taken aback, and I’ve always been glad when I’ve done what you did and gather more information.

        I will say, given what you wrote below, that Janet seems like someone who is a big-picture thinker. If she’s thinking about someone else’s development and advancement, she’s going to be an excellent leader.

        Reply ↓
  34. Question 4!*

    oh wow! I wrote letter 4! I realize in reading this letter lacks some serious context which is that Amy and Janet each have about 5 of work experience and I have more than 40. The person who will replace the administrative part of my role has about 10-15, but will quickly grow into the role. I realize I said “more senior role” which kind of implied they have a lot of experience, but for our line of work they are still very inexperienced–they just have more than most of my other subordinates. If they don’t understand the complexity of my role, I have a bigger problem!

    I am pretty sure I know what happened, which is that Janet has actually taken on a slightly new role (working on different projects than she did before) which Amy has helped her adjust to and she’s very appreciative of that. And I think Amy would like to have a higher position than she does (she doesn’t have the skill set, or the instincts to take this on yet, this is one of the thing I will recommend my successor work on with her). I think this is all just a little bit of professional immaturity and I’ve slid back into my original assessment of Janet. Ironically, Janet is probably better equipped, with better instincts to move up the professional ladder more quickly than Amy. She just needs more confidence–which we’ve been working on.

    Reply ↓
    1. Parenthesis Guy*

      I’m so confused reading your letter. Where do Janet and Amy rank compared to each other? Would it be a one level promotion for Amy to get to where you are? A two level promotion? It seems that both are higher ranking than your other subordinates, so if you wanted to stay internal, they’d be good options.

      You seem oddly fixated on years of service as if someone working twenty years is necessarily more advanced than someone that’s worked five. That’s reasonable as a general guideline, but not always the case.

      You seem to think highly of Janet and that she should be higher ranking than Amy, even though Amy is helping her out and not vice versa. I don’t understand why that’s the case. It doesn’t seem like immaturity to recognize that someone is coaching you and trying to help you improve. It seems to me like that’s maturity. Now if this is a huge jump, that’s different.

      It seems like you’re holding the fact that both Janet and Amy have only five years experience against them. But if they’re doing good work, that seems like a mistake.

      Reply ↓
  35. I should really pick a name*

    #5
    If you’ve had a cancellation with the old organization before, you could use that to show what the standard procedure has been.

    Reply ↓
  36. r..*

    LW2,

    for reasonably sensible employers, the reputation you should try to acquire is that of a good, diligent worker, and the one to avoid is to become known as shirker or slacker.

    Attendance, and consequently time off, is just one of many factors that go into that assessment. Outside of primarily coverage-based roles, pure attendance/butt-in-seat time arguably is a very sub-par method for this, primarily used by people who do not know how to manage based on output.

    Also, please don’t come into office when you’re sick. The one thing that is guaranteed to be more expensive than a sick employee is to have an office full of sick employees. If you’re sick, staying home so you don’t spread your infection is not only the compassionate choice, it ultimately is also often over the long run cheaper choice.

    Reply ↓
  37. L. Large*

    Wow, at 66 years I try to learn new ‘stuff’ every day. Did not know about the harms of antibacterial soaps/chemicals for many folks. Ty AAM, OP3 and the Internet folks cause learning is FUNdamental!

    Reply ↓
    1. Jennifer Strange*

      That’s not at all what is being said? They are looking to use soap that doesn’t have certain chemicals in them, which is a valid thing to want to do (especially for someone who has already lost a child). Can we not shame someone for wanting to be especially careful during their pregnancy when they’re not inconveniencing anyone else?

      Reply ↓
    2. doreen*

      I don’t think the letter is strange at all- it’s an issue that comes up with more than just “fancy expensive pregnancy hand soap” . For starters, it can come up with ordinary supermarket-type hand soap that ‘s better for someone’s skin than the provided soap or Poo-pourri or air freshener or anything else that might be more convenient to leave in the restroom rather than in a desk or carrying it around all day. And the answers the same no matter what it is – there’s no way to leave it it the restroom without someone using it. Some people might use it because they don’t realize it wasn’t supplied by the building and others only in an emergency – but it definitely will be used by someone other than the owner. Which is why most offices I’ve worked in had someone collecting money for ladies room “amenities”.

      Reply ↓
  39. Arguments*

    #1: “I think you have a better chance of success calling it out directly than asking his boss, your boss, or HR to intervene — since apparently everyone else has decided they’ll just work around him.”

    This is spot on. LW, I absolutely get your impulse to do this, but I’d like to throw in one word of caution. It might be possible that some of your team members do feel less strong about this than you. They might ignore it, laugh about it or think that this is indeed a strange personal quirk. So do not try to create a “united front” in order to make him stop.
    I am annoyed if somebody is talking over me, too, and most of the time I just continue talking until I presented my arguments. But unless people from your team complain to you, it is only between you and him.

    Reply ↓
  40. doreen*

    # 2 – Some employers have actual policies about this and they might not be as short and simple as “no time off for a year”. At my last employer, I not only had to wait six months to take vacation time off , it didn’t even get credited until I had worked there six months. But it was a place where there were all sorts of separate buckets of paid leave. I could take sick leave , even for medical appointments before the six months were up. I was credited with a week of “personal leave” on my first day and could have used that my first week if necessary. There was special cancer screening leave and blood donation leave . If I worked on a legal holiday (like Election day) I got a day of holiday leave. The only leave I couldn’t take within the first six months was vacation leave.

    Reply ↓
  41. learnedthehardway*

    OP#4 – I wouldn’t let the recommendation cause you to doubt your coworker’s judgement, unless it’s part of a clear pattern of bad decision-making, generally. Rather, I would assume that she really does not know the content and requirements of the job that you are trying to fill. Or she thinks very highly of Amy generally, and figures she’d quickly learn the skills needed.

    Anecdata – I once gave a peer reference for someone for a role that he and I both had strong experience in – ie. same role, different company. He’d performed admirably and was a valued team member at the company where we both worked. Unfortunately, he didn’t work out at the new company, and I asked my friend (who had hired him) what on earth happened. Turned out, their “identical” role was actually somewhat different from the role in the company where we had both worked, AND my understanding of my former colleague’s skills was very different from what his actual strengths were. He was really strong in some areas, but not in the ones that would have made him successful in the new company.

    In other words – NONE of us (him, me, and the hiring manager) realized that we didn’t know something important, and we all made a serious mistake in accepting/recommending/hiring the guy for the role. We didn’t know what we didn’t know, in various dimensions. A classic case of the axiom “Assuming makes an ass out of “U” and “mi”. ”

    You’re probably in the same situation with your colleague. And then again, perhaps you are making assumptions that Amy doesn’t have the skills/abilities for the role – since she’s internal, perhaps you should interview her and find out more. She might surprise you, or you might find that you have very solid grounds to tell her that she’s not a fit.

    Reply ↓
    1. bamcheeks*

      I do think that’s mainly on the hiring manager. A recommendation should be, “hey, I think this person should be considered, but you know the role best”. I wouldn’t expect the person making the recommendation to know the nuances of how the role differed,: exploring previous experience and how it matches up to the actual job description is definitely the hiring manager’s role!

      Reply ↓
  42. Another Kristin*

    Last time I changed jobs LW #2, I was not allowed to take any time off during my PROBATIONARY period – 90 days – but it’s ridiculous to say that you can’t take any time off for a full YEAR. I certainly took sick days and a vacation during the first year. Your friend has absorbed some very unusual professional norms.

    Reply ↓
    1. HonorBox*

      My workplace is trying to build in some balance for people. My boss, recognizing that he’s from a different generation, has added some time for people to use. What we do is important, but not so important that someone should burn out… especially in their first year. That friend’s advice seems like it is coming from a bad experience or two where attendance was taken and there’s no recognition that people are not robots.

      Reply ↓
    2. dulcinea47*

      I worked in a place that didn’t let you use any vacation time for the first six months. So “the holidays” roll around and I had to work the day after thanksgiving, xmas eve, NY eve, every single day that there was no one else in the office, it was honestly pretty dumb. I think I took one sick day during that time.

      Reply ↓
  43. Can’t think of anything clever*

    Regarding the time off thing… I worked in a police/fire dispatch center for years, including 10 in various management roles. Please call in sick if you are sick. Even if it’s the second day of training I’d rather that than the domino effect of one sick person. We also regularly hired people who already had vacations, weddings, and all sorts of things planned. “My parents are taking the whole family to London in three months.” If we can figure it out so can the accounting firm, engineering firm, whatever. When I was a dispatcher I wasn’t always wild about bidding vacations but honestly some of this “you look bad if…”!

    Reply ↓
  44. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    #3 how big is your office? If there are just a few of you who use the same bathroom could you tell them that you have an allergy or medical condition and you need to use a special soap? Or is there someplace in the bathroom where you could keep the soap out of sight?

    if that doesn’t work could you get one of those refillable travel bottles to keep in your purse.

    Reply ↓
  45. Falling Diphthong*

    OP2, my daughter had to take a week off sick about a month into her new job. New job’s attitude was “It really sucks that you’re sick; don’t worry about not having enough sick time accrued, just don’t breath on the rest of the office, and don’t muck with the source code if you’re feverish.” It probably would have been tone deaf to come back in and then ask for a week off–but taking pre-arranged time to travel for a wedding a few weeks later wasn’t a problem.

    I think your friend listened to advice from a fearful relative, who tries to ward off the chance of anything bad happening by making sure that you have never done anything that might give them an excuse.

    Reply ↓
    1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      I started a new job once knowing that my father was dying. I told my bosses what was going on, and they gave me the option to defer my start, but I elected to start anyway. Then I had to take Week 2 off when he died. It was not an easy time, but my employer did not penalize me for it.

      Reply ↓
  46. Hiring Mgr*

    Kind of a tangent from #4 – do retiring workers often get to choose their successors? They should have input for sure, but so should the folks remaining who will work for/over/with the new person.

    Reply ↓
      1. Hiring Mgr*

        Thanks – I meant more generally, not your specific situation. I’m not quite at retirement age myself yet so haven’t really seen this play out up close.

        Reply ↓
  47. Apples and Oranges*

    My company discourages new employees from taking time off in the first 90 days (with exceptions obviously if you’re sick or have a pre-planned vacation that you negotiated during your offer). They feel like that time is important for getting to know the team and onboarding, etc.

    After the first 90, they really don’t care. Waiting a whole year is excessive. Even the people who are saying you shouldn’t take more than a few days off your first year, I find excessive. There are slow periods like holidays and summers that it will often be fine to take a week off. At most jobs you won’t accrue enough the first year to take excessive time off anyway so as long as employees are sticking to their accrued vacation it should be fine.

    That said obviously the culture of the company makes a huge, huge difference here

    Reply ↓
  48. WantonSeedStitch*

    In my workplace, the only limits on vacation for new hires are those imposed by the accrual process. We don’t start with a pool of vacation but have to accrue it over time, and you can only take five vacation days over what you have already accrued. If someone wanted to take a whole week of vacation in their first month without having already given us a heads up when they were hired, I’d be a little annoyed: those first few weeks are usually carefully planned out to give them the training they need to succeed in the role. But if they did give us a heads up, I’d be OK with it and would create their training schedule with that in mind. And as for sick time, if you’re sick, take the time off, for goodness sake. Even if it’s your first day on the job, if you’re too sick to work, you’re too sick to work. Just be communicative about it.

    Reply ↓
  49. red dog*

    Ironically, soap doesn’t even need the anti-bacterial additives.

    Yes, soap doesn’t kill bacteria, but it makes it impossible for bacteria to cling to your skin. Lather up your hands with plain soap, wash them under water for 15 seconds, and 99.9% of bacteria will wash off your hands into the sink.

    Soap destroys viruses. Viruses contain fat as part of their structure. Soap dissolves fat. When you was with soap the viruses on your hands literally fall to pieces.

    Plain soap is the best substance for removing bacteria & viruses from your skin.

    Reply ↓
  50. Calamity Janine*

    for LW1, i gift you something which may not actually be helpful but is something you can toss this person’s way like a shuriken directly into an eye socket as a dastardly ninja would in the middle of a dramatic scene, with the understanding that this is something which will probably make him momentarily angrier and you should try more sensible routes first:

    “i understand you’re upset, $JERKNAME, but there’s no need to raise your voice at us because you’re being overly emotional. how about we take five so you can compose yourself and then we will continue this meeting?” or “I am going to mute you so you can calm down and we will revisit your remarks at the end of this meeting, thank you”.

    this is something that is both the nuclear option, and something that is likely to be effective. you make it his problem. you squarely put the problem back on his shoulders. and he will probably hate it a whole lot because… a lot of men subscribe to the idea that emotions are weak and womanly so therefore everything they feel is actually ~ * logical * ~ . despite the fact that they are just mistaking their feelings for logic. the more they feel it, the more logickery must be present! they’ve not got those emotional cooties, how dare you!!! so… he will probably do more of a kaboom act when you trot this out.

    is it a little mean? yes. but quite frankly it’s mean already for a dude to run roughshod over everyone thinking that the more he yells the more correct he is. to paraphrase a certain disney animated cat, ladies do not start fights but they may certainly finish them. it’s also pointing out very effectively that the failure of professionalism is on his part – not yours. going into this with the breezy attitude of “of course this must be terribly embarrassing for you to be doing this in the workplace, so allow me to graciously do you the kindness of giving you a chance to remember you’re a working professional here” is both a way to twist the knife and how you make this effective. though it is a situation mired in gender politics, part of the kayfabe is to not mention them. simply talk about it in terms of professional behavior. if he wants to make it a gendered thing, make him profess the sexism he wants to back him up – because when he states it openly, everyone will have a much easier time going “wait that’s not right at all and totally inappropriate wtf”.

    and i would even discuss this with him after the fact to similarly return the problem to him. “instead of raising your voice, you need to excuse yourself and compose yourself in order to not tell at others. if i am running a meeting, i expect you to be able to adhere to basic professionalism. are you able to conduct yourself appropriately, or do i need to find alternate solutions?”

    right now everyone is assuming the problem is “just tiptoe around him and let him yell”. make the problem be “wow, he can’t function in the workplace adhering to basic professional behavior”. load up both barrels with The Problem Isn’t Mine, It Is Yours and let him have it.

    is this mean? yes. is this something i still think needs to be done? yes. dudes who use or at least benefit from misogyny in this manner to talk all over women have exhausted everyone’s patience with them. i can’t promise that you won’t receive splashback from chucking this nuke – it’s a dangerous proposition if the company is already very used to coddling this dude’s tantrums as standard operating procedure. but i feel it’s also dangerous to absorb their behavior as totally normal and an accepted part of the workplace. you’re already expected to put up with the massive inefficiency that is listening to him yell his emotions and talk over the actual information needing to be conveyed. it’ll harm your career if you absorb their lesson of “whoever talks the loudest is the bestest and we let them be loud and if you wake the baby it’s your fault”. so don’t!

    this is me being utterly ruthless. and honestly i am advocating for a level of aggro crag that probably means you should also get your own resume out. if coddling this guy is part of the company culture, then half of his loudness is because of the evil bees. so this level i am suggesting you employ is the nuclear option for a reason.

    but i am also very tired of this whole societal thing of which this guy is a symptom and an example of the form. and i do think my exhaustion exists with good reason.

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  51. Emotionista*

    #1. Idea from a Reddit post I saw a while ago: treat the yelling as a sign of someone who is too “emotional.” The person yelling wants to come off as strong and dominating. The idea is to characterize them instead as weak and flailing. So, your suggestion of “do you need a minute to calm down?” fits right into that, maybe said in a concerned kindergarten teacher sort of way, maybe even coupled with, “it seems like this topic is making you really emotional. It’s ok to take a minute!” Stuff like that. In small doses, to the person himself and also to others. Don’t know what making Fergus so emotional lately, I hope he’s ok! And so on. Sometimes recharacterizing what a person is doing can make them feel like they’re doing something silly. Just a suggestion. This person sounds exhausting, but this method sounds like it could be amusing!

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  52. Hiring Mgr*

    “Carrying my own hand soap back and forth from my office to the bathroom isn’t practical or hygienic.”

    Not sure why it’s not practical or hygenic, but this seems like the easiest solution

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  53. Alan*

    I will judge you much more for coming in sick than I will for staying home. The former seems (perhaps ironically) a little egocentric: “I’m so important that coming in is more important than other people maybe getting sick.”

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  54. Dawn*

    LW3, I’m sorry, but you will have to carry your soap. And carrying soap is, in fact, fully hygienic. The bathroom surfaces are not so horrifying that putting it down for two minutes will cause it to become a teeming mass of bacteria, but if it makes you feel better, you can also carry a spray bottle of rubbing alcohol to sanitize the bottle with.

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  55. Ess Ess*

    OP#3 — I’m not sure why you say that carrying your own soap is unhygenic. It is soap. They make plastic snap cases for carrying soap bars so you can easily transport back and forth and keep it in a drawer in your desk.

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