my employee says I have to give her longer breaks because she’s a smoker

by Alison Green on March 18, 2025

A reader writes:

I own/manage a business, let’s say a retail heath care equipment supply company that is located in a larger health care campus. I have multiple employees, and for a six-hour shift they get two 15-minute breaks. It isn’t intense or overly physically exhausting work, but I realize it is nice to step away for a few minutes.

No problems until a few weeks ago when I hired “Deleana.” She looked great on paper so I hired her. Come to find out she is a smoker. Recently we had a meeting about her ongoing tardiness from breaks and the possibility of disciplinary action, up to and including termination. She then said that I was violating her “smoker’s rights” because she didn’t have enough time to get to her car, have a relaxing cigarette, and make it back in time as the campus is a non-smoking area and she needs to walk a block (or more) to where she can park and smoke. I told her that smoker’s rights really don’t exist and she knew of the campus’ policy as she had to pass multiple signs when she came in for the job interview. So no, she wasn’t going to get an extended break time.

Today she surprised me with saying I am not accommodating her physical disabilities (she can’t walk fast enough to her car apparently to get a cigarette finished) and she won’t say what her disabilities are, nor does she (according to her) need to tell me. She said will be visiting her doctor to get a note saying I need to accommodate her disability by giving her longer breaks so she can smoke.

Is this a thing? Can somebody require an accommodation just so an employee has time to smoke a cigarette? A quick Google search on work breaks shows that I may not even need to give breaks which would solve the problem, but would be unfair to the other employees.

Haha, no.

Smoking is not considered a disability under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), nor is it protected under that law.

Interestingly, when the ADA was being drafted, the tobacco lobby did try to get smoking included in the definition of “disability.” Since they were simultaneously trying to maintain that smoking wasn’t addictive, they tried to get it covered as a “perceived disability” rather than an actual one. But they didn’t succeed, and smoking is not covered under the law.

There are 29 states that prohibit employers from discriminating against smokers — meaning that in those states, you can’t refuse to hire a smoker or fire someone for smoking, although some of those states have exceptions for nonprofits and the health care industry. But even in those states, you don’t need to give smokers extra breaks or extra long breaks, and you can fire smokers for exceeding their allowed breaks.

Tell Deleana you’ll be continuing to hold her to the same break rules you hold everyone else to … and I would begin preparing to fire her, since if it’s not over this it’s almost certainly going to need to be over something else. (Although personally, I would be tempted to wait for that note, just for the entertainment value of watching someone try to get a doctor’s note requiring them to smoke.)

You may also like:
{ 416 comments }

{ 416 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Veryanon*

    Deleana gets points for creativity, but no, there is no such thing as smokers’ rights. Her doctor is more likely to tell her to quit than write her a note for work (!!!!!!!).

    Reply ↓
    1. RIP Pillowfort*

      Yeah that’s a wild take and I have heard some really militant smokers use that phrase! It must be written down somewhere.

      The only way I see her getting a note is if she lies to her doctor and the issue causing mobility isn’t actually linked to smoking. So if she says she’s having to walk at lot a work and she has arthritis in her hips? That could get a doctor’s note maybe. Even then, it would be for getting accomodations for job duties and wouldn’t override the no-smoking campus requirements.

      Reply ↓
      2. Miss Chanandler Bong*

        I have asthma and hear that so much from smokers because they think they have a right to smoke (especially, unfortunately, my relatives who smoke).

        Noooo…I have a right to clean air. You have a privilege to smoke in certain cases. And my right to clean air trumps your privilege to smoke.

        And this applies to every non-smoker, just moreso those of us who can’t breathe around it.

        Reply ↓
        1. cncx*

          A friend of mine got yelled at about “smokers rights” the other day in the train station because she asked a smoker to move to the designated smoking area instead of smoking right next to her on the bench. The person was so mad my friend thought she was going to be pushed in front of the train. It is indeed apparently a human right to smoke.

          I am so tired of smokers, I went to my doctor yesterday to see about a different inhaler because I always seem to be behind someone walking and smoking, or next to someone who wants to smoke right there and not in a smoking area. My doctor was like “you do realize it is crazy that you are budgeting extra time in your commute to let the smoke clouds pass and asking ME to change your treatment?” I wish I lived somewhere where people couldn’t walk and smoke, I think Milan and Warsaw have rules about it. But in the meantime, I can’t breathe.

          Reply ↓
    2. Bilateralrope*

      Part of that accommodation would be a closer parking space, if possible. Maybe on campus and within the no smoking area.

      Reply ↓
      1. sparkle emoji*

        I’m making an assumption here, but it sounds to me like the reason she’s parked so far is because the campus is a no smoking area and she needs to be either off campus or in one designated section? That’s how the letter makes it sound to me at least, give the signs LW references. Maybe she could park closer and drive away to smoke.

        Reply ↓
        1. Tuesday*

          Yes, you are most likely correct. I spent some time on a no-smoking campus this summer and being in your car doesn’t count as a “smoking zone” there were signs all over the parking lot that it was still a smoke free zone and you had to leave the property to smoke.

          People still tried to sneak it, and I definitely saw more people vaping because it’s much easier to take a covert puff.

          Reply ↓
        2. Insulindian Phasmid*

          I think that’s right, too. In which case she could park closer and DRIVE off campus to a smokable section, that would be faster.

          Reply ↓
          1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

            The problem I see with this is finding your spot when you get back.
            Even if she agreed with this, I think inevitably it would blow up. Parking spot will be gone.
            I worked in an office complex on a hill. The building I was in was a two mile drive from my house. I would drive home for lunch, eat a sandwich, get back to the office and find myself parked only a mile and a half for lunch. Same with driving to college. 20 minute drive from my house, 30 minutes looking for parking.

            Reply ↓
              1. birdloverextreme*

                Yeah, two miles I would walk or bike. And have before, I used to live three miles from work and biked every day, and it was four busy downtown streets. I just wore my helmet and obeyed all laws and it was fine.

                Reply ↓
                1. Lydia*

                  Congratulations. Your comment has all the hallmarks of shaming without actually asking outright if Not Tom has a disability to “qualify” to drive that distance.

                2. constant_craving*

                  As someone who routinely bike commuted for almost a decade, please don’t imply that it’s perfectly safe to do if you just wear a helmet and obey all laws. I was doing just those things when I was struck by a car, as is the case with many cyclists who are struck each year. I was also doing those thing the many times I wasn’t struck because I was able to dodge an at-fault driver quickly enough (including drivers who intentionally swerved at me and drove off laughing).

                  Helmets and law-following help, but they’re far, far from a guarantee of keeping people safe. I still think bike commuting is great, but let’s not pretend simple steps within a biker’s control are all that’s needed to be safe. It’s reasonable that not everyone wants to take that risk.

              2. Texan in Exile*

                Snow? Heat? Lack of sidewalks? Sweating in work clothes? Physical challenges? A gajillion reasons?

                Reply ↓
              3. Jennifer Strange*

                Because not everyone can walk two miles? It also sounds like Not Tom was going home for lunch, and walking two miles there and two miles back is probably going to completely use up their lunch break.

                Reply ↓
                1. theycallmemimi*

                  especially not on a timeline– I could walk the distance from my home to my workplace, but not there and back in one lunch break, not if I want to actually enter and eat in my home.

                2. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

                  Right, even a brisk walk is 4 miles an hour. So even if Tom got a full hour for lunch, there wouldn’t be time to actually eat.

                3. Oniya*

                  I walk two miles to work. I call it my ‘workplace 5K’ (2 miles each way adds up to a bit over 6km total, just for perspective.) It takes me about 45 minutes each way at a moderate pace. My lunch break is officially 30 minutes (just under the threshold for a required hour), but even with a full hour, I wouldn’t have time to walk the total of four miles, and still have time in the middle to prepare and eat lunch.

                1. Jillian with a J dammit*

                  Would take me at least 45 and I’d need to stop at least once to use my inhaler.

              6. Tristan*

                I live “only two miles” from my work and drive because it’s not remotely walkable or bikeable. It’s two miles on a large major street with no bike lanes and limited sidewalks, in a high crime area, in a part of the US that regularly has terrible weather. I would love to walk if that was feasible but unfortunately it’s not except for in some kind of extreme circumstance. Last year I was having car issues and ended up taking public transit which was a 2-hour daily commute (at best) for a drive that takes less than 15 minutes.

                Not everyone lives in an area where that’s possible.

                Reply ↓
                1. PhyllisB*

                  So true!! I live in a subdivision and we have a bank. a convince store and a grocery store all within one mile of my house, BUT they’re on an extremely busy road with no sidewalks or even a shoulder to walk on. In fact, a number of years ago someone was hit by a car and killed walking on this strip of road. I would love to walk to accomplish my errands but it’s too dangerous.

                2. LifebeforeCorona*

                  I worked at a truck stop that was less than 2 miles from my home. I could walk but it meant crossing a 2 lane highway with a passing lane and a speed limit of 90KM. My 5 minute car ride was much safer.

              7. I'm the cracker-eater*

                I live less than ONE mile from my office and I almost drive because: 1) My work often involves driving elsewhere (sometimes in town, sometimes to adjacent counties) and it would be a hassle, and – especially in winter – squander limited daylight time to walk back and pick up my car, plus I often run errands after work or when taking a break 2) I’m old (and my worn-out knees are not going to get any better with more walking) and while I’m sometimes able to walk the dog a similar distance, schlepping a tote bag full of laptop and files + big purse + lunchbag is very different 3) weather may change between when I arrive at work and when I am ready to leave or work off-site several hours later. Thankfully, we have plenty of parking here at the office. When I was young, I did walk to work and was criticized for that too.

                Reply ↓
        3. Bilateralrope*

          That’s a possibility. But I was thinking that the campus parking is full by the time she arrives.

          My point is that if she gets a note that mentions some disability related to movement, getting her a parking space closer to campus is the obvious accommodation. One she has a hard time arguing against. Even when putting her car in the no-smoking area clearly goes against what she wants.

          Reply ↓
        4. Lellow*

          We absolutely do not want to be encouraging people to drive unnecessarily short distances *more*, adding to air pollution for everyone on the campus.

          Reply ↓
          1. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

            But you’re OK with pushing people out of the workforce because they can’t walk or bike a total of eight miles every day?

            I don’t drive–at all–and sometimes my options are to get a ride, either from a friend or by paying for a taxi or rideshare, or not make a given trip. I am paying a higher rent so I can be walking distance of transit, but the buses and trains don’t go everywhere that I want to go.

            Reply ↓
      2. Fly on the Wall*

        Our company campus is no smoking, including in your car on the property. We’ve had people walk out at their orientation meeting due to this. Which is wild IMO.

        Reply ↓
        1. Ipsissima*

          I work in healthcare. They drug test new employees (including for nicotine), it’s in our yearly compliance education that employees can be randomly re-tested without warning, there are signs EVERYWHERE about “no smoking or vaping anywhere on hospital property” … people still routinely get caught smoking, occasionally even IN the hospital! Indoor smoking has been banned in my state for over 25 years, so no one can plead “I forgot where I was” either. I don’t get it.

          Reply ↓
      3. Observer*

        Part of that accommodation would be a closer parking space, if possible.

        Maybe. If it actually affected her ability to *do her job*. But her ability to take smoke breaks? As Alison says “Haha, no”

        Reply ↓
        1. Clorinda*

          Assigning her a close parking space addresses the claimed disability, which is walking. It is a flat-out brilliant suggestion.

          Reply ↓
        1. Ipsissima*

          Some of my coworkers occasionally show up high, and Deleana’s reasoning(?) sounds like something they would think is just *brilliant*.

          Reply ↓
    4. linger*

      If there is any real medical argument to make (i.e., some undisclosed condition that makes smoking somehow necessary), Deleana’s doctor could (and possibly should) prescribe nicotine patches. Though probably Deleana would refuse that solution, and/or try some other way to extend her breaks.

      Reply ↓
      1. I Have RBF*

        Nicotine patches, gum, and lozenges are available OTC. Even if they are a hard core nicotine addict, they still do not have “smokers rights” to smoke at the job.

        Healthcare facilities are especially inflexible about this. The hospital my wife goes to has a “no smoking anywhere on the grounds” policy. People who want to smoke have to leave the grounds, and the grounds are pretty big.

        I am an ex-smoker, and my roomies still smoke. Our rule has been, for two houses now, that smoking happens outside.

        If I was feeling generous, I might buy her a pack of nicotine lozenges, and reiterate that a) there is no smoking on the grounds, and b) she can’t come back late from breaks. Other smokers manage their addictions, she can manage hers.

        Reply ↓
    5. Boof*

      Her doc might offer to write her nicotine gum or patches so she can get her fix while not stepping away to smoke… but I think those are still out of pocket payments unless maybe she’s trying to quit and part of some program that will c0ver them temporarily

      Reply ↓
      1. I Have RBF*

        I think the patches/gum/lozenges are probably the same cost as cigarettes these days. They are also available OTC, at least here in California.

        If she’s not willing to use a nicotine replacement while she’s at work, and keeps overstaying her breaks to smoke, put her on a PIP and fire her. Smoking is not a disability, and even if it was, the accommodation is not longer breaks, it’s nicotine replacement patches, gum, lozenges, etc. She needs to be made aware of this in no uncertain terms.

        I’m an ex-smoker, but if it was stop taking smoke breaks or lose my job, I’d find some other solution to needing a smoke.

        Reply ↓
        1. Boof*

          Yes most of the nicotine products don’t require a script – it’s been a decade but in 2015 at least I was so disappointed to find that a typical out of pocket cost for a nicotine replacement schedule was not less than smoking a pack a day for the first 1-2 months, as I recall. (I was gunning for oncology so did my internal med residency grand rounds on smoking cessation strategies including different medical assistance options and how much they changed quit rates etc)

          Reply ↓
        2. Freya*

          Here in Australia, if it’s covered by the PBS (Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme), then a prescription medication can be cheaper than the same med purchased OTC because the government covers part of the cost. Also, top level health insurance will cover a part of prescription medication, as long as you got a pharmacist’s receipt for it (my own will cover the difference between what I pay and the price the PBS sets as reasonable, up to a maximum that’s higher than what I pay for any of my meds).

          Mind you, cigarettes are hideously expensive here in Australia – a box of 7 patches that last for 16 hours (intended for people who smoke 15+ cigarettes per day) costs less than a pack of 20 cigarettes (AU$29 vs AU$32.50 at my local cheapest sources – I can’t bear the smell of ciggies, but I know that we have really high excise taxes on tobacco products intended to discourage their use and thereby long-term reduce associated public health costs. Right now, that tax (paid by manufacturers and passed on to consumers) is a fraction over AU$1.40 per cigarette, so the pack of 20 I quoted earlier would have ~AU$28 of that AU$32.50 going to the government as excise tax)

          Reply ↓
  2. MassMatt*

    I agree with Alison both on preparing to get rid of her (if she’s this crazily argumentative a few weeks into the job what’s she going to be like in another month?) AND for waiting for her to produce a doctor’s note for longer smoke breaks, that’s hilarious.

    On a related note, it used to be h maybe still is?) a thing to get extra smoke breaks in the restaurant industry. I knew multiple people that took up smoking to get more breaks, crazy as that sounds.

    Reply ↓
    1. Chairman of the Bored*

      I worked at a place where the big big big boss was a smoker, which gave the other smokers the opportunity to get on friendly terms with him while they were out in the back lot together.

      People much lower in the organization would become pals with him because they got recurring facetime, and this absolutely benefited their careers.

      It didn’t take long for ambitious young MBA types to figure out how dynamic worked.

      Several of them absolutely started smoking just to get this additional access to the head honcho.

      Reply ↓
      1. bleh*

        I had a friend who ended up addicted to cigarettes because of this break time with the boss situation. She took up smoking to hang out on smoke breaks and then boom, she couldn’t quit.

        Reply ↓
        1. JustCuz*

          I tell people all the time that I’d rather go through child labor again than quit smoking again … and I am not joking.

          Reply ↓
          1. Elizabeth West*

            I used Chantix to quit and I STILL don’t want to go through that again. I will never touch another ciggie unless there’s a confirmed extinction-level comet headed right at us. Then all bets are off.

            Reply ↓
        2. Annie*

          I’d go out with people on smoke breaks and not smoke, just to socialize. I don’t see why you have to take up smoking just to get time with the boss.

          Reply ↓
          2. Irish Teacher.*

            In some places, you won’t get the break unless you smoke. Which is ridiculous, but I did work somewhere where occasionally people who smoked would be allowed slip out for an extra break but no way would anybody else be allowed to slip out just to socialise.

            Reply ↓
          3. Baunilha*

            I have a friend who tried to do that and was told that nope, the smoke break was for smokers only. She was the only one in her department who didn’t smoke and was often left alone at the office while her coworkers were all outside together.
            It turned out to be a very toxic workplace, who would’ve thought?

            Reply ↓
      2. Clearance Issues*

        I noticed that at my previous employer too: it felt like everyone but me smoked, and I did try to hang out with the smokers to get facetime but gave up on upward momentum since I couldn’t be near them without coughing.

        jokes on them: my new company has almost no smokers and I am progressing.

        Reply ↓
      3. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        I have three nephews who took up golf in high school because they thought it would come in handy in their later careers.
        It did.
        And the smoking: They used this as a plot in Friends. It does create a closer personal level.

        Reply ↓
      4. bishbah*

        This happened at my first job in the early aughts. A junior manager took up cigar smoking just so he could hang out with the owner (a cigar smoker) and the VP (a cigarette smoker). They’d be out in the alley together all damn day, and the owner would leave what was left of his stogie above the door frame to the back entrance when he came back inside so he could resume smoking it later.

        Didn’t help that there was a cigar store in our same building…

        Reply ↓
      5. Goldenrod*

        This is awful, and it is definitely a thing. My husband once had a job offer pulled because the person he was replacing found out from the HR person – while hanging out gabbing in the smokers area together – that she could take an extended leave instead of quitting outright.

        This resulted in the company pulling the job offer. It worked out better in the long run, because it was a terrible company!

        Reply ↓
      6. Llama Llama*

        15 years ago I worked where the big big big boss and the big big boss both were heavy smokers. I was on friendly terms with the big big boss and he once told me if I wanted to get farther in the company quicker I needed to take up smoking (I didn’t and they both retired 2 years later).

        Reply ↓
      7. powerbard*

        I also worked at a place like that. I solved my problem by going outside when everybody else went to smoke. I just stood upwind of them, drinking my coffee and participating in the conversation. It wasn’t the kind of place where this would get me ahead, but at least it got me the same breaks as all the smokers.

        Reply ↓
    2. But Of Course*

      I finally started getting breaks in my fast food job thirty years ago by announcing I was taking a smoke break without the smoke. Smokers always got their breaks; the rest of us, not so much.

      Reply ↓
      1. Geriatric Millennial*

        I did the same working at a convenient store. “Breaks” were always based on how busy it was, especially if I was the only or one of two people working. I would absolutely take a smoke break right after my coworker returned for exactly the same amount of time. I’m not doing an extra hour of work in the same shift length!

        Reply ↓
      2. Elsewise*

        My partner used to work in a place that gave extra breaks to smokers. I kept telling them to take “asthma breaks” and go stand away from the building (further away than the smokers did) to take their inhaler. They never tried it, unfortunately.

        Reply ↓
        1. Marzipan Dragon*

          Back in 1960 my mom took up smoking because smokers at her place of work got two extra breaks a day. Gave it up when packs went up to $0.25 each because the expense wasn’t worth it.

          Reply ↓
      3. Cee*

        I remember working retail as a teenager and being so mad that my smoking coworkers got more breaks than me.

        Reply ↓
        1. allathian*

          Yeah, me too. There was a guy at my first ever retail job who only smoked during his shifts to get the extra breaks. Then he quit that job because he said he didn’t want to get addicted to nicotine.

          Reply ↓
      4. Properlike*

        I complained about this when our restaurant manager said smokers could have extra breaks and teenage me said “what about breaks for people who don’t smoke?”

        Should’ve done the non-smoking smoking break.

        Reply ↓
    3. Reality.Bites*

      Most places I’ve worked had a 3-month probation period during which you could be let go without notice or reason.

      If the laws in OP’s area permit it, I’d just get rid of the smoker. She’s never not going to be a problem

      Reply ↓
      1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        An at will state can let you go for any reason. But OP is saying campus. I worked for a university. There was a probation period. It was for both parties. If you were let go during the probation period, or you left during the probation period, then employment was a wash. You could use them as reference. “Employee left during probation,” not “let go.” So it might be a kindness to wish her well. Because she is not going to get easier.

        Reply ↓
        1. Rainy*

          OP is saying campus but it sounds like it’s a larger industrial area or a health care campus rather than a university campus.

          Reply ↓
        2. Lydia*

          It sounds like they have a business that is on the campus, not that they are part of whatever healthcare campus is there. Hospitals lease out offices to private practices and these practices are not ruled by all the same policies as the hospital itself, so a probationary period may not even be a thing for the LW’s business.

          Reply ↓
    4. PenguinWrangler*

      There’s that classic Friends episode where Rachel starts smoking for more face time with her boss and other colleagues. Restaurant work is stressful af too, so I can see people adopting a habit to get out of it, especially if the habit provides immediate stress relief. Plus cigarettes are about the least damaging controlled substance in most kitchens anyway.

      Reply ↓
      2. Librarian of Things*

        Yeah, I had a kitchen job at a fine dining restaurant my freshman year of college. I was the only person on staff who did not smoke (it was a union shop, so I still got the requisite number of breaks). It boggled my mind that waiters could make $500 a day (1990 dollars) and still not have any money, until I learned just how much cocaine was involved. Sweet, innocent 18-year-old me left that job a year later still a non-smoker and without having so much as laid eyes on the coke. Pretty sure the old hands viewed me as some sort of pet and they had to preserve my innocence.

        Reply ↓
        1. Rainy*

          Oh gosh yes–I don’t know about these days, but when I was in my late teens/early twenties and working kitchen jobs, there was a lot of coke around. The restaurant workplace was full of stock characters and drugs were a huge part of that. The FOH manager who had to be alerted when he had coke on his face coming out of the bathroom, the dishwasher dealing out the back door of the kitchen, the absolutely silent chef with wizard-level powers, the septuagenarian waitress who could, at need, somehow staff the whole restaurant as long as someone ran drinks for her…

          Reply ↓
          1. Librarian of Things*

            A quick Google search turns up Ocean Hills Recovery, which has a page dedicated to substance abuse in the restaurant industry. They say that the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Association reports that restaurant employees “use illegal drugs, particularly cocaine, at double the rate of the national average.” Seems like things maybe haven’t changed much since we were that young!

            Reply ↓
    5. Beth*

      I’ve heard the same from friends who work in restaurants. It’s still a thing. A few of them took up smoking at work because they had the option to either 1) take extra breaks, get outside, chitchat with other smokers (usually including managers!), or 2) be stuck inside covering for everyone else. I get their logic!

      Reply ↓
    6. TinkerTailorSolderDye*

      Honestly, I took up smoking just so I could get /A/ break, period. Back before they really cracked down on breaktimes/lunch time at the state and federal level, the hot beef sandwich place (rhymes with Starby’s) I worked at was absolutely abusive with breaks, in part because our new GM didn’t believe in taking breaks herself, and there for, neither did her management. She couldn’t legally get away with forbidding all breaks, but I know plenty of us who would put our heads down and deal with it because we needed the money, and most of us were college/high school dropouts who didn’t have many options in a small town.

      I remember going in to buy my first pack of Camel Menthols, the clerk was confused because I was much older than the usual first-time smoker, and because I looked so utterly done. Went back, smoked two, and never stopped pissing off my shitty boss. :D

      Fortunately, and I am grateful for this, quitting was relatively easy, since I never got much of a hit off it anyway. And I haven’t smoked much since then, maybe one or two over the last ten years. But I’ll still never forget the look on her face when I pulled a pack out to go out back; Surprised Pikachu didn’t even begin to describe it. She was furious, I was glad to get off my feet and sit on the cruddy old bucket, and she never did forgive me.

      Reply ↓
    7. Polaris*

      **Nobody ever checked to see if I smoked, or if I was smoking, when I joined in on the “smoke breaks”. Just saying.**

      Reply ↓
    8. LifebeforeCorona*

      I wasn’t a smoker but noticed that smokers always got at least 2 extra smoking breaks in addition to their normal breaks. So I started going outside with the smokers. This was before smoking zones so the smokers stood around the back door and smoked. Gradually, the perimeter was expanded to no smoking within 50 metres of the entrance. Smokers had to walk further away and their breaks got longer. Our manager timed the smoking breaks and on average they were gone almost an hour every day just for smoking. So they lost their smoke breaks but still had their regular breaks for smoking.

      Reply ↓
      1. DragoCucina*

        We briefly owned a toasty sub sandwich franchise.
        Everyone received a paid meal break, with their food included.

        The smokers were taking more, longer breaks than everyone else. They also weren’t as available as the rest of the crew because they were always in the middle of a cigarette. So, we had to make a rule that if you took an additional break you had clock out. The non-smokers (mostly high school students) all breathed easier in more ways than one.

        Reply ↓
    9. Trixie melodian*

      A restaurant I worked at in London offered “yoghurt breaks” for non smokers. It was perceived as unfair that smokers got additional breaks, so a “yoghurt break” mean that non smokers were able to take additional breaks without feeling guilty.

      Reply ↓
    10. I'm the cracker-eater*

      Somehow, I don’t thing curing the smoking would cure the lateness. (She could presumably get to her car, off site, and back during her lunch, and these are only 3 hour shifts.) This about her taking an extremely adversarial approach to a very reasonable correction by management. It doesn’t bode well. . .

      Reply ↓
  3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    This is wild. I’ve worked places where smokers got extra breaks because they “needed them” while the rest of us only got 15 minutes for 6 hours of physical work. The disability thing because she can’t walk fast enough is crazy. It would be one thing if she couldn’t walk far and the break room was a long distance away or on another floor, and by the time she got to the break room she only had a few minutes to eat, rest, etc. But not being able to walk because she is smoking is crazy!

    Reply ↓
    1. Mallory Janis Ian*

      Right?! It’s so annoying! I used to work in places, too, where the smokers either got or just *took* way more breaks than anyone else and the attitude really was that they “needed” them because they “had” to go smoke.

      Reply ↓
      1. Barber Anne*

        This! I worked at a barbershop years ago where the owner (a smoker) wouldn’t let the absolute powerhouse receptionist take lunches most days because it was “too busy” but didn’t care that most of the barbers were chronically 10-15 minutes behind schedule due to frequent smoke breaks. Apparently they “needed” to smoke, but she didn’t need to eat? The whole place fell apart when she got sick of the unequal treatment and quit, and we all had to deal with constant complaints about her replacement, who was notorious for never answering the phone because she was always out back smoking.

        Reply ↓
    2. sacados*

      Yup. I suppose a potentially more fruitful tactic could be if she uses the doctor’s note to argue difficulty walking to/from her car at the beginning and end of the day, and therefore she needs to be assigned a parking space that’s closer to her office. Then the length of her break would become moot.

      But yeah, a car isn’t a break room and no one is forcing her to go out to her car during breaks.

      Reply ↓
      1. Beth*

        It sounds like she’s already parking just outside campus, though. If she was assigned closer parking, it’d probably be on campus, and the no-smoking policy is campus wide. If anything that ‘accommodation’ would make it harder for her to smoke–she’d still have to walk off campus, but she wouldn’t have a comfy car to sit in anymore!

        Reply ↓
        1. sacados*

          Oh, good point. I was thinking that the policy wouldn’t be an issue if she’s inside her car with the windows/doors closed, but you’re right that might not necessarily be the case!

          Reply ↓
          1. Beth*

            Yeah, my experience of campuses (both academic and hospital) is that they tend to take those policies seriously. She might not get caught, of course, but she likely would get in trouble if the wrong person noticed.

            Reply ↓
        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          It might be an example of malicious compliance then. “I’ve secured a parking spot right by the door for you, since you *have* to sit in your car during your breaks and you need it to be closer.” ;-)

          Reply ↓
      2. Lydia*

        But a good doctor will still require some sort of verification or that they’re actually treating the person for whom they’re writing a note, so I’m not sure how this person could guarantee that was an option.

        Reply ↓
    3. Momma Bear*

      I’ve worked those places, too. I started taking “non-smoke breaks” in good weather because if they could spend 10 minutes in the sun, why not me?

      Reply ↓
      1. Dark Knight in White Satin*

        A few of us did that way back when… and the smokers complained that “non-smoke” breaks weren’t allowed.

        Reply ↓
    4. Dek*

      Flashing back to my time as a dishwasher and briefly considering picking up the habit just so I could sit down for a couple minutes

      Reply ↓
      1. cncx*

        I did this when I had a manager who let the smokers take a break an hour while the rest of us got fifteen minutes every six. I legit bought a pack of cigarettes and held it lol

        Reply ↓
    5. MSD*

      Hmmm. I would have bought a pack of cigarettes and just stood around with an unlit cigarette in my hand on my extra breaks.

      Reply ↓
  4. Tradd*

    Wow. Shades of several jobs in the past 25 years where smokers had all the breaks they wanted, while non-smokers were kept to 2 x 15 min breaks a day (in addition to 30 min lunch or you could take it all at once for a 60 min lunch). Non-smokers fought like heck, but when management are all smokers, no luck.

    Reply ↓
    1. LadyMTL*

      This is why I left my previous job – I’m a non smoker and I was fed up with smokers being able to take easily 5-10 breaks per day when I’d sometimes be side-eyed if I shut down my workstation two minutes early (and I rarely took breaks to begin with.)

      OP Deleana is being ridiculous, Alison’s ‘haha no’ is spot on.

      Reply ↓
    2. BatManDan*

      Had a job (once; the rest of my life I’ve been self-employed). It was a sales role, and we had a mandatory block of time on Friday afternoons to make phone calls and book for the next week. Early in my tenure there, I left early on a Friday for a haircut. As I walked past the most inveterate of the smokers, she asked “why do you get to leave early?” and I replied “I’ve saved up all my ‘smoke breaks’ all week and I’m taking them all at once.”
      She did, without exaggeration, about 30% less work than the rest of us because she smoked SO many times a day.

      Reply ↓
    3. Mallory Janis Ian*

      At one place where I worked, the non-smokers would actually have to *cover* the smokers’ calls so they could go spend 15 minutes of every 45 minutes on a smoke break. Statistics are made up, but that’s what it seemed like.

      Reply ↓
      1. Wendy Darling*

        When I did research moderation we ran two blocks of 4 50-minute sessions with an hour lunch in between., Each session started on the hour. You used the 10 minutes between sessions to turn over the room, go to the bathroom, eat a snack, etc. Turning over the room only took like 2 minutes once you’d had a week or two of practice, so it was typically plenty of time.

        We had a new moderator who was almost always starting sessions super late even several weeks in, which was pretty disruptive, so I asked him what was up and he informed me that 10 minutes wasn’t long enough for him to turn the room over AND go out and smoke, so he had to start late.

        I was like, that’s not how any of this works, and he was aghast that I felt that not ruining our schedulers’ entire day and keeping participants waiting was more important than him having a cigarette once an hour.

        Reply ↓
    4. Clisby*

      The first 13-14 years of my working life were at newspapers, where nobody got smoking breaks – they just smoked at their desks.

      Reply ↓
      1. Oh, what do I know?*

        Yes. I think a lot the comments may overlook the fact that these PAST jobs, where smokers got extra breaks were IN the PAST. When offices first went smoke-free, years ago, often a large part of the existing staff were long-time heavy smokers. It made sense to accommodate them, trading off a little efficiency for staff retention. (No one would have been prepared to replace a third to 2/3 of their workforce at one time, especially since older – therefore more experienced/skilled, and higher-ranked – workers were more likely to be entrenched smokers. Had they gone that route, a large percentage of the qualified candidates would also have been smokers.) If you were an nonsmoker hired shortly (or even a decade) after this change occurred, the practice would have seemed not only very unfair, but illogical. However, from an employer’s perspective, it did make sense. Now that those folk have largely aged out of the workforce, extra breaks for smoking just aren’t necessary anymore. I think younger people who DO smoke now, smoke considerably less than those folks who started their careers in smoke friendly workplaces of the 1950s and early 60s. It has been years since I have met a 3-pack-a-day smoker (who could afford it?!) and they used to be common.

        Reply ↓
    5. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      I worked as a paralegal where the office manager was a smoker. We had no mandated breaks, but she would break several times a day to go smoke. So I just started taking breaks to walk around outside. Hey if she can break, I who was working 80 to 100 hours a week on salary could certainly walk around the block a couple of times.

      I would wait to see the note too. Just for the entertainment value.

      Reply ↓
    6. Sparkles McFadden*

      Back in the late 80s, smoking was still allowed in my workplace, but in designated areas like our breakroom. One guy in our five person group would suddenly need a smoke break when things got busy. He’d do this several times a day, always when we had an influx of work that had to be done immediately. We tried talking to him about it and he pretty much spouted this same sort of nonsense. Unfortunately for us, our shift manager took the smoker’s side, so the smoker doubled the number of smoke breaks he took, saying it would be discrimination if he couldn’t take a break he “physically needed” whenever he needed it.

      Rather than go to management over this, we came up with an alternate plan.. As soon as a flood of work came in, Smoky Bill jumped up and ran out. The rest of us followed five minutes later. One coworker lit a cigarette and let it burn in the ashtray. When the shift manager came in to tell us to go back to work, we told him we were all smokers now too, and on our break. One guy said “But hey, Smoky Bill is done with his cigarette so he can get started and we’ll follow him back in a few minutes.” We did that every time Smoky Bill said “I’m taking a smoke break.” Smoky Bill escalated this two levels up. It did not go well for him (eventhough both division heads smoked). He ended up on management’s radar and yes, he did a ton of other ridiculous stuff we just didn’t know about which now had consequences.

      Reply ↓
    7. LifebeforeCorona*

      That’s why I started going outside with the smokers. I bought a pack of cigarettes, lit one and let it burn down.

      Reply ↓
    8. LL*

      I’m so glad that smoking has become way less common. That attitude is ridiculous. DON’T GIVE SOME EMPLOYEES MORE BREAKS THAN OTHERS.

      Reply ↓
    9. StarTrek Nutcase*

      I’m so old (67+) that at my first job smoking was still ok INSIDE. I didn’t smoke but grew up with parents who do, and was thrilled to move out at 18 to a nonsmoking place. BUT work with smokers was horrid and at that time smokers ruled. After that job, I was careful to only apply where smoking was prohibited inside (healthcare usu.) and I celebrated when eventually smokers weren’t even allowed on my work 500-acre campus. (Before it had been horrid to even have to walk through an entrance where smokers congregated, and then stink all day.)

      And second hand cigarette smoke is a medical problem for others besides asthmatics. It is a huge migraine trigger for me but even my parents didn’t care. At least my bad habits don’t directly impact others!

      Reply ↓
  5. DramaQ*

    What would the note even say? “Please allow Deleana extra time during her breaks because due to her smoking she is unable to walk to her car quickly without losing her breath. You’re required to continue to allow her to damage her lungs by accommodating the need to walk slower to her car”.

    Reply ↓
    1. JSPA*

      “Needing more time to get someplace” might be reasonable (she may not mention to the doc it’s for smoking!) but if her only need to get to her car is nicotine cravings, the sensible answer is a patch. She doesn’t need to actually quit (that’s her business!) but there’s a medically-approved nicotine-delivery device that any campus would almost certainly be delighted to have her use.

      Reply ↓
      1. Oh, what do I know?*

        Yeah, I wouldn’t risk waiting for her to get a doctors note. Who knows how she might present it to the Doc (She may even have a Doc who smokes themselves.) And how it might be worded. And then you might wind up in court “She fired me even though I had a doctors note saying I needed accomdotion!” And with bad luck, you might get a judge/arbitrator/mediator who smokes. So, just go ahead and fire her for being a contentious pill, which is the real problem. (Maybe for the lateness too, but that is a smaller issue than a new employee trying to fight you on something like this.)

        Reply ↓
    2. PenguinWrangler*

      There was an episode of House where a mall Santa comes into the clinic because of Irritable Bowel Syndrome. He’s afraid of losing his job because of how often he has to go to the bathroom to deal with it. Dr. House prescribes him cigarettes to manage his symptoms for reasons that are probably counterintuitive, not good, and/or ethically ambiguous because House. So there is precedence for a doctor’s note prescribing smoking but they’re in fiction.

      Reply ↓
      1. Full of Woe*

        I have a nonfiction example!

        My cousin has severe IBD and when she was trying to quit smoking her GI doctor suggested she might not want to quit entirely. I think the concept might have been to have cigarettes on hand just to delay bathroom emergencies when out in public, but my memory is a little unclear.

        Reply ↓
        1. Ariana*

          There is a working theory (still being tested) that nicotine influences gut motility in IBD. Soon after I was diagnosed my GI doc suggested we try nicotine patches, as I’ve never smoked cigarettes. I declined to add another chemical to my system to test this theory.

          Reply ↓
        2. PenguinWrangler*

          I had a friend in college who was going through some traumatic family stuff who was advised by her therapist not to quit smoking, I think the rationale was that dealing with her family was very hard, smoking gave some kind of relief from it, trying to quit on top of all of it would be too much to deal with, and trying but failing to quit would be demoralizing. Seems like there are some edge cases after all :D

          Reply ↓
          1. me*

            Similarly, it is suggested that people studying for the bar exam not try to quit smoking during the period they are studying for the exam because it adds too much extra stress.

            Reply ↓
          2. Rainy*

            I had a classmate in undergrad who’d quit smoking with her first kid but since she’d started again the second he was born (like, he was being weighed and she staggered out to the sidewalk leaning on her IV pole to smoke) with the second her obstetrician said not to bother quitting for just the pregnancy unless she was going to quit for good, which she wasn’t going to do. He told her that the stress was actually worse for everyone involved than the smoking even though the smoking wasn’t great.

            Reply ↓
          3. Jay (no, the other one)*

            There’s a difference between not putting yourself through withdrawal on top of other stresses and actually benefiting from nicotine.

            Reply ↓
          4. L*

            In high school, I used to volunteer in the library of an inpatient mental health centre. All the patients that were there for addiction issues or eating disorders smoked like chimneys – because trying to quit smoking would only have set back their recovery from their other issues. Presumably the idea was that if they wanted to quit smoking, they could wait to try it until they were in a healthier place.

            Reply ↓
        3. Anon for this*

          My friend didn’t know she had ulcerative colitis until she quit smoking. That is how she learned that nicotine is actually helpful for it. Not that it would work for an ADA accommodation. There are other ways to get nicotine in the system

          Reply ↓
      2. RedinSC*

        This is strange to me, when I was in the Peace Corps and we had to regularly give a stool sample to make sure we weren’t sick, but often we were all backed up, and smoking a cigarette helped loosen things up! So I would have thought, from that experience, that smoking would made IBS worse!

        Reply ↓
      3. PhyllisB*

        Many years ago doctors would recommend that pregnant women take up smoking to help keep their weight down.

        Reply ↓
        1. Zephy*

          I’d read that doctors recommended for pregnant people to take up smoking to keep the *baby’s* weight down, because it’d be easier to give birth to a smaller baby. Neither of these scenarios are good and I am not inclined to do any research into which, if either, is true.

          Reply ↓
    3. Bilateralrope*

      Don’t ignore the possibility of a doctor willing to lie for her. At which point the LW has to make an accommodation for whatever gets on the doctors note.

      My advice there is to treat the note as genuine and offer whatever is most helpful there, especially if it’s less helpful for a smoker.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I just wrote this below, but employers aren’t required to comply with doctors’ notes if the facts don’t meet the bar to qualify under the ADA. Doctors can make recommendations but they can’t dictate what the specific accommodations must be, or even that any accommodations are required; if the ADA isn’t in play, employers are free to ignore the request in the note.

        Reply ↓
      3. Recently Promoted Cog*

        Doesn’t matter. Smoke breaks are not essential job functions.

        If she tries to argue that she’s addicted and has a medical need for longer breaks (like a diabetic employee might need, to check sugars and take meds), the company can say that she could address her addiction with a nicotine patch or chewing gum.

        You don’t get to dictate which accommodation you get if you ask for an accommodation. It has to be “reasonable” and in line with business necessity, and she can’t demand a long break to walk to the car for a cigarette if they say she can chew gum on the job.

        Reply ↓
      4. Observer*

        At which point the LW has to make an accommodation for whatever gets on the doctors note.

        Not really. Even assuming that the LW’s company is large enough for ADA to kick in, it’s just not the case that a doctor’s note is a magic wand that gets the bearer whatever is on it.

        Reply ↓
    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      What a weird take. We don’t know if the OP didn’t check references. And there are lots of places where this might not have been an issue. I’ve worked loads of places where they give smokers extra time.

      Reply ↓
      1. WellRed*

        It’s not the extra time so much as the obvious BS about having disabilities and acting as OP if violating the ADA. All because she wants longer smoke breaks. Its probably just the tip of a bad employee iceberg.

        Reply ↓
        1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          But what I’m saying is that she might not have acted like that at other jobs, because they gave her what she wanted.

          Reply ↓
        2. JSPA*

          Don’t underestimate how extra demanding an addiction can make you act; and I’ve been told by a friend who had made the comparison, that for him, quitting both crack and alcohol were easy, in comparison to nicotine. So yeah, she’s making bad arguments, but maybe that’s a function of the spot she’s in, not the person she is.

          Reply ↓
      2. doreen*

        Not to mention that some jobs that don’t really time breaks or those where 15 minutes is plenty of time to get to a place smoking is allowed , smoke and return.

        Reply ↓
    2. Middle Name Jane*

      A lot of employers have a policy where they will only provide a former employee’s start/end dates, job title, and salary for reference checks.

      Reply ↓
    3. Ellis Bell*

      She could well have come from somewhere that allowed smoke breaks, or a manager who smoked themselves. It’s only in a set up with short spaced out breaks and a non smoking campus that this is an issue. I do wonder about her work ethic overall, though.

      Reply ↓
      1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

        Yeah, and even more so her attitude. I mean, she can take a shot at this, but as the manager of a new employee I’d be more concerned about the fact that she’s pushing back obnoxiously and trying to co-opt civil rights language (“smokers’ rights”).

        Reply ↓
    4. GammaGirl1908*

      I would not be at all surprised if she came from a place where her smoking habits were fine, or at least much easier to accommodate, and she is mad about having to adjust.

      It’s probably a thing she’s so used to doing that it never even occurred to her that it would be an issue at the new job, AND it never would have occurred to her old job to mention it.

      I mean — as a nonsmoker and a person who does not work at, like the American Lung Cancer Society — I certainly wouldn’t think to ask in an interview or reference check whether the employee is a smoker and how many smoke breaks they take in a day.

      Reply ↓
      1. WellRed*

        Of course not! You’d be trying to learn whether she had other issues as an employee. Lots of smokers push break times longer but they don’t usually then leap to ADA accommodations, doctors notes and “smokers rights.” And she’s only just started when most sane employees are in best behavior mode. There is a high likelihood she has plenty of other performance issues.its not about the smoking.

        Reply ↓
      2. MigraineMonth*

        It sounds like the number of breaks isn’t even the problem, it’s that she doesn’t have time to get off the non-smoking campus, smoke, and then get back in the 15-minute break. If previous jobs didn’t have non-smoking campuses, it probably wouldn’t have come up.

        Reply ↓
    5. Sara without an H*

      Umm…I can imagine a situation in which Deleana’s former boss was happy to give her a positive reference just to get rid of her, without doing the necessary documentation to fire her.

      Reply ↓
  7. Any Given Fergus*

    Can’t wait for an update for this one! I want to know if she’ll actually follow through with a note and what it will even say.

    Reply ↓
    1. CareerChanger*

      Yessss please an update especially if there is a note. The convoluted logic is only going to get more ridiculous. As much as I love “haha, no” I can’t imagine that will be the end of it.

      Reply ↓
  8. WorkerDrone*

    I have to agree that now is the time to start planning to fire her. This is just such an entitled and bananas demand to make that I cannot imagine she is reasonable in other areas of her professional life.

    Reply ↓
    3. Warrant Officer Georgiana Breakspear-Goldfinch*

      I wish this bananapants request had come via email, because then you could claim “someone extremely dumb has hacked your email and is playing a weird prank by sending insane requests to give you more time off for smoking! you should make sure your email is secure so they don’t make you look bad.”

      Reply ↓
    1. Elizabeth West*

      So have I, and I only smoked on my lunch break. The rest of the time I was too busy to take breaks!
      I was skinnier back then because I would eat less so I had time to smoke.

      Reply ↓
    2. Dark Knight in White Satin*

      Ditto.

      A few of us started to take “health breaks” (stair climbing)… and the smokers actually complained that “non-smoke” breaks weren’t allowed because we had to stay in the office to do their work!

      Reply ↓
  11. not nice, don't care*

    One 10 minute smoke break per day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks per year adds up to over 40 hours of stolen leave time.

    Sure, yeah, take your smoke breaks, but only if everyone else gets that extra week of vacation too.

    Reply ↓
        1. Curious*

          If (but only if) the employer wanted to be accommodating, they could let her take longer breaks so long as she made up the additional time at the end of the day.

          I don’t think that would cause wage-and-hour problems, but would defer to others with greater expertise.

          Reply ↓
    3. I Have RBF*

      I mean, if she were working a half hour later to make up for her smoke breaks, it might work out in the wash. But in a coverage based job, that won’t cut it.

      When I smoked, and took smoke breaks outside with my skip-level boss (and mentor) who smoked the same unusual brand of cigarettes as I did, I tended to work 9 to 10 hour days, not including lunch. I made up the time, and then some.

      Reply ↓
  12. Not TheSameAaron*

    She should probably focus in on her walking, rather than her smoking if she wants to succeed in this. Mobility issues are treated more seriously than “smoker’s rights”. She should also get some training in proper time management.

    Reply ↓
    2. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      Accommodations are so you can perform the job, but smoking isn’t related to that. She could have a dozen disabilities that make it take longer than her break to get in a cigarette, but the employer doesn’t need to accommodate that.

      Reply ↓
      1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

        If she was struggling to walk to the other side of the building for meetings, that would be one thing. And I’m sure there are situations involving a break-length-related accommodation – say she has to logout and shut down her station before breaks, and it takes her longer to do so because of her disability. In that case, there could be an accommodation so she’d have the same actual break as everyone else. But a longer break to smoke because that’s how she chooses to use her break time on a nonsmoking campus? Even if she had a disability, this seems a bit too much.

        Reply ↓
        1. Bird names*

          Yep, thanks. There are legitimate cases around break length and disability, this one however isn’t one of them.

          Reply ↓
    3. DramaQ*

      But she, as far as we know from the letter, has no problems with mobility for her job. She’s pissed that because she wants to smoke AND smoke in her car (which requires it be off campus too) that she deserves a longer break so she can make it there in time to have her break cigarettes.

      That is not something a business has to accommodate. 15 minutes would be plenty if she wasn’t addicted to nicotine. That is her problem to manage.

      Reply ↓
    4. fhqwhgads*

      An accommodation for “I can’t walk this far for my break” is “don’t walk that far to take your break”. If she can’t smoke without walking that far, doesn’t really matter. Plus accommodations are to do job functions, not to facilitate one’s preferred break activity.

      Reply ↓
  13. Endless TBR Pile*

    This is one of those letters that make me question reality. Not because I doubt the LW, but because this is the kind of letter that makes you pause and go “there is no way someone would do that. No… no.”

    And yet those people exist. No, OP. Deleana claiming she needs a longer break because she, in essence, can’t accomplish what she wants on her break, is not a reason to extend her breaks (and frankly, since it is for smoking, I think it sets a really bad precedent).

    IF this is something you want to consider for everyone, maybe allow her to take (1) 30 minute break instead of (2) 15 minute breaks? That is of course entirely dependent on coverage, if you want to do it at all, etc. But know that you don’t have to do or change anything, and I suspect Deleana won’t be an issue much longer.

    Reply ↓
    1. Betsy S.*

      I had the same thought. If scheduling allows, give people the option of taking two 15-minute or one 30-minute break. Fair to everyone, nobody gets extra time, she gets her leisurely walk.

      I’m a former smoker, I know it’s challenging to go six hours without a smoke. But these days there are other options such as nicotine gum or patches.

      Reply ↓
    2. Kella*

      I’m very certain that if OP offered to combine her two breaks that Deleana would say she needs *multiple* smoke breaks and that it’s an unreasonable hardship for her to go 7 hours of work with only one smoke break. Deleana is also very clearly not approaching this in a way that indicates that she wants to compromise or work with OP on finding an arrangement that works for everyone, just one that works for her.

      Reply ↓
      1. MigraineMonth*

        Yeah, if Deleana had approached this in a collaborative way (“I’m struggling to get back from break on time because of this, I’ve tried x and y but it hasn’t solved it, I wonder if I might work late to make up for extra break time” or similar) I would have a lot of sympathy for her.

        Nicotine is extremely addictive, and it takes most people many tries to quit. A lot of people became addicted because they served in the military (the US gave cigarette rations until 1975 and still doesn’t tax cigarettes sold in commissaries), or because tobacco companies targeted their advertising at poor and racial minority communities (e.g. menthol cigarettes advertised to black communities). It’s bullshit to blame individuals for all the effects of smoking without considering the systemic forces that got them addicted in the first place.

        Unfortunately, Deleana doesn’t seem interested in working this issue out collaboratively or finding workarounds.

        Reply ↓
  14. Machine*

    Simple the note would say Deleana needs to walk to her car during breaks she must park far away due to the rules and cannot walk fast enough to get a real break. It’s the same if you worked on one end of being factory but break room was on the other giving you a 3 minute break half hour required for a real break. If she must park far away she can get accommodations. It has nothing to do with smoking. Prove she does not have to park far away and can take a regular break length in order to fight the note.

    Reply ↓
      2. Elsewise*

        I’m curious about something related to this- what about covid? If someone is high-risk or immunocompromised and wears a mask in the building, could they get a closer parking spot as an accommodation so they could take their masks off in a sheltered space away from other coworkers? Or is that too convoluted?

        (I’ve recently been diagnosed with an auto-immune condition as a result of long covid. I work from home, so it’s not relevant to me, but I know people who are high-risk and are the only maskers in their offices who take lunches and breaks outside in freezing or rainy weather because it’s the only place they feel comfortable taking off their masks.)

        Reply ↓
          1. Jessen*

            If you’re including the employee’s lunch break in there, you would probably have a decent argument that you do in fact need an unmasked break.

            Reply ↓
            1. Rusty Shackelford*

              I can see this person being told “you don’t have to stay on the premises for your lunch break, you have time to go somewhere else to eat.”

              Reply ↓
            2. Boof*

              They would have to be in a really crowded place if there were actually zero places they could eat without being within a meter of another unmasked human (I believe droplet precautions mean the infectivity drops off dramatically after about 3 ft, hence the recs for ~6ft or 1m distancing)

              Reply ↓
        2. sparkle emoji*

          I think the specific issue making the walk long here is that Delana may need to fully leave the campus to get out of the non smoking area. Presumably, a person masking would just need to step out side, not get all the way off the property.

          Reply ↓
          1. RC*

            Or this could actually be a situation where a closer parking spot would help, depending on the campus layout— although whether people will eyeroll at the onlymasker for overreacting is another question. I think most of us just have big coats and amazing breath control at this point. (Always grateful I live in a mild climate where just outdoors is okay).

            Reply ↓
    3. honeygrim*

      But she doesn’t have to take her break at her car. She could take her break wherever everyone else who works there takes their breaks. She has to go to her car in order to smoke, so her request has everything to do with smoking (or, if you prefer, the request has to do with the specific activity she wants to do during her break, not the break itself).

      Reply ↓
      1. Tabihabibi*

        I did spend a bit thinking about whether there is the risk of overlooking a mobility-related disability, but agreed it keeps coming back to the issue of whether there is a sincere need at the other end of that walk. Wanting time to smoke, reach the coffee shop, go the library, jam out in your car, check on the dog, say hi to a pal, volunteer at the soup kitchen, or some other optional thing that you simply can’t pull off in the time allotted is not it. It might be helpful to frame it to yourself like that: this would presumably apply even if the activity were something you were personally really into.

        Reply ↓
    4. Jennifer Strange*

      Deleana doesn’t need to walk to her car during breaks, though, she chooses to. That’s like me saying I need a longer break because it takes me too long to walk to the Starbucks and back.

      Reply ↓
    5. kt*

      Taking her break doesn’t require her to walk to her car, though. She chooses to do that so she can smoke, but they aren’t saying “you must hike to the parking lot and back to have your break.”

      Reply ↓
    6. GrooveBat*

      There’s no requirement for employees to spend their breaks in their cars, so your analogy does not apply. The only reason she is walking to her car is so she can smoke in it. She doesn’t have to smoke, ergo, she doesn’t have to walk to her car.

      If she’s sitting in her car smoking during her break, she probably reeks when she comes back to work.

      Reply ↓
    7. Reality.Bites*

      There’s no inherent right to go to a specific off-premises location during a break.

      No right to smoke.
      No right to take breaks in car.
      No accommodation required

      Reply ↓
    8. Beth*

      There’s no reason Deleana has to walk to her car for breaks. A doctor might reasonably write a note saying that a disabled worker needs a longer break time to access necessities (a bathroom, water, food, medications). But there’s no reason in this letter to think Deleana doesn’t have access to actual necessities–she just doesn’t have access to a smoking spot. No doctor is going to say that their patient medically needs to smoke on their breaks.

      Reply ↓
      1. Office Plant Queen*

        I can think of exactly one exception, and that’s if someone uses medical marijuana. Because the smoking ban on campus is presumably for ALL smoking, not just tobacco. Because then the person is going to their car to take medication, and they can’t really take it anywhere but in their car.

        But even in that case, I don’t know that having the time to smoke an entire joint in their car is a reasonable accommodation. My understanding is that in medical uses it’s often not enough to really get high from, and if you do, you probably aren’t consuming it in such a way that you’re high during the workday. Especially if you commute by driving!

        Reply ↓
        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Courts have so far said that medical marijuana use is not protected under the ADA (not surprising since the ADA is a federal law and medical marijuana is still illegal federally). However, state courts could conceivably apply state disability laws differently. But it also matters that because marijuana is still a Schedule I illegal substance, doctors are not permitted to prescribe it, only recommend it. So it’s not black and white.

          Reply ↓
        2. Beth*

          Everything Alison said–and also, if it were legal, I feel like this would hit the same end point as the “what if nicotine addiction was a condition protected by the ADA?” question. Nicotine comes in forms other than cigarettes (e.g. patch, vape, gum), and those would probably be considered a reasonable accommodation. Marijuana comes in edibles, vapes, etc–if it were to be approved federally as a medical treatment, employers could likely offer one of those alternate forms as a reasonable accommodation.

          Reply ↓
        3. Boof*

          I actually don’t think smoking marijuana is a medical necessity; if there’s some medical benefit to cannaboids there are methods (oil drops etc) that are probably better anyway. That’s not even getting into the federal/state legal grey areas.

          Reply ↓
      2. WS*

        Yeah, I have SI joint arthritis and when it’s flared up I take longer to get places because my right leg doesn’t work well. If I was on timed bathroom breaks (or had a long walk to leave the building) it would be worth talking about. But I wouldn’t get a longer break because I specifically needed to go to one particular more distant shop to buy my coffee and I walk slowly!

        Reply ↓
    9. Bilateralrope*

      That sounds like the kind of note that gets her a parking space on campus. Inside the no smoking area.

      Unless the LW wants to call it a fraudulent doctors note. Which means lawyers

      Reply ↓
    10. Recently Promoted Cog*

      Nope. This isn’t an IEP meeting, where you get to try to dictate how and where your services are provided. This is work, where you only get an accommodation to ensure you can do the “essential functions of the job” with or without reasonable accommodation.

      Having a smoke is not an essential function of the job.

      Reply ↓
    11. Recently Promoted Cog*

      and the “iterative process” with the employee would have the employer state that there are other ways to address her nicotine addiction that do not require walking to the car, such as gum or patches. They could offer to allow her to chew gum on the job, if its otherwise not allowed.

      Reply ↓
    12. DramaQ*

      But she doesn’t NEED to take a break in her car. She chooses to because she not only wants to smoke but smoke in her car to boot. If she parked her car on campus she would not need to walk as far but then she wouldn’t be able to smoke in it. This isn’t an issue of mobility as far as I can tell from the letter.

      The campus I used to work on was smoke free because we were part of a learning hospital. You’d have to walk at least three blocks away or more to get off campus if you wanted to smoke. That was a you problem not a university problem. You had to make a decision about what was more important to you.

      There is no reason an employer should have to make exceptions for that. If you can’t figure out how to get back in 15 minutes either chew gum, use the patch or quit. She agreed to work on a non-smoking campus so she knows the rules. She has a designated two 15 minute breaks the same as everyone else.

      Why should she get more time simply because she smokes? No other employee has issues with their 15 minute breaks because they aren’t trying to find the one area where they can smoke during it. I’m sure they could find just as “valid” reasons as Delena for wanting more time on breaks but if the employer isn’t going to approve those then Delena doesn’t get more for smoking either. It sets a bad precedent and creates resentment which I wouldn’t be surprised is already building towards Delena. I doubt the smoking is the only area she is a pain during work.

      Reply ↓
  15. cxxxb*

    A friend of mine is a hairdresser and legit STARTED smoking because the salon owner told them on day one that smokers get more breaks because they “need it”. Well my friend wants to sit outside for 20 ish minutes a couple times a day too so she started smoking.

    Reply ↓
    1. Presea*

      Sigh, I hate workplaces that incentivize people to smoke with policies like this. My partner’s workplace allows for smoke breaks, but they allow everyone to take them regardless of whether they’re literally smoking a cigarette or not I always thought this was the only reasonable way to do it – structure the policy around smokers if you must, but allow non-smokers to take advantage of it too.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        I used to occasionally go stand outside with the smokers because that’s where all the good gossip was, but I was never out there as much as any of them were. This is really the only reasonable way to do it — either everybody gets that many breaks or everybody gets the same amount of fewer breaks.

        Reply ↓
          1. a perfectly normal-sized space bird*

            When I still worked onsite, I was so glad my boss let us get up and jog or walk around the halls if we needed because there were points during the day where I absolutely needed to step away from my computer and shake my brain back awake. At the place I worked at before, only smokers got breaks to do that. And they had enforcers to make sure people taking smoke breaks were actually smoking so no trying to fake it. They could have solved a lot of morale problems and productivity slumps by giving everyone equal breaks.

            Reply ↓
      2. Rocket Raccoon*

        My job gives lunch plus two “smoke breaks” that are available to everyone and I just can’t figure out how to use such a short break effectively. Go pee and eat a granola bar, ok that’s like… 3 minutes? Stand around for 7 more minutes?

        Reply ↓
        1. MigraineMonth*

          Quick meditation? Stretch break? Jumping jacks? Practice your word of the day or drill vocabulary for a foreign language you’re learning? Reply to a personal email? Find a dog to pet?

          Reply ↓
      3. NerdyLibraryClerk*

        At my first bookstore job, the manager smoked and let the smokers take as many breaks as they wanted. When she and the assistant manager got fired (for very good, though non smoking related, reasons), the remaining staff was basically on our own. One of the things we did while running the store without management was decree that *anyone* could take five if they needed to, they just had to coordinate it with their coworkers.

        It’s too bad more workplaces don’t go with “smoke” breaks for everyone.

        Reply ↓
    2. Ellis Bell*

      I’ve also heard stories of people who stopped smoking because they were given no leeway at all, and it was too much of a hassle to go to a designated area.

      Reply ↓
    3. The teapots are on fire.*

      My ex-husband started taking “smoke breaks” when he was in the Army in the 1980s, because sergeants didn’t take kindly to people taking a “break”, but didn’t bat an eye when he said, “Hey Sarge, I’m gonna go smoke a cigarette.” He never bothered to actually smoke. He’d just go out to the designated smoking area and sit around for a few minutes with the smokers and then stroll back to work.

      Reply ↓
      1. Dark Knight in White Satin*

        Did the smokers try to bust him for “fraud”?

        (Back in the early 2000s, a few of us started to take “health breaks” [stair climbing] — and the smokers actually complained that “non-smoke” breaks weren’t allowed because WE had to stay in the office to do THEIR work!)

        Reply ↓
      2. not like a regular teacher*

        A long long time ago, on my first day of an internship, my supervisor invited me out for a smoke break. I told him I don’t smoke but he should go ahead while I continued working, and then he gave me one of the best pieces of advice I’ve ever received: “Oh, I quit smoking 20 years ago, I just think we we should go outside and gossip for a few minutes.”

        Reply ↓
  16. Doug*

    To me it sounds like they are going to try to get a note saying they need longer breaks due to being a slower walker and needing more time to do what others would do on their break, and use that for smoking. But that still wouldn’t directly cover being able to go to the car and smoke, and could probably have an accommodation that also didn’t require that, like allowing them to keep things closer by or something.

    Reply ↓
    2. metadata minion*

      It sounds like this is a quite small business and probably don’t even have a dedicated HR person, let alone a whole department.

      Reply ↓
      1. Morty*

        So it sounds like the OP needs to rope in an actual employment lawyer familiar with ADA compliance just to make sure they have an idea of potential scenarios that Deanna might launch at them. Those scenarios might not happen but if never hurts to be aware of what kind of shenanigans someone this dumb could actually pull.

        Reply ↓
      1. MigraineMonth*

        It was more like the 1960s, but I’ve always been vaguely impressed that when my grandmother had chronic cough and sore throat, her doctor was upfront with her that the only thing that was going to help was quitting smoking.

        It would have been more useful if my grandmother had actually been a smoker, though.

        Reply ↓
        1. Esprit de l'escalier*

          Good twist ending there! I wonder if she spent a lot of time around smokers, though, getting their second-hand smoke. Smoking was still super common in the 1960s, and people smoked everywhere — at every kind of workplace, in restaurants, on public transit, you name it. It was hard to avoid.

          Reply ↓
  19. pally*

    Just spitballing here.
    If she’s got COPD or asthma, exacerbated by the smoking, these conditions might cause her to be unable to make the walk to her vehicle and back within the break time allotted.

    Question is: would she be able to hoodwink the doc to get a note to this effect?

    Reply ↓
      1. bleh*

        But she doesn’t have to be honest with the Dr about why she needs the accommodation. Ask me how I know. I have an employee that got a ridiculous accommodation (all remote work) for a job that requires very little time on site. To say more would give away the type of work, but she just… gets what she wants. Our lawyers know (and say aloud but don’t write down) that it’s wrong but that “she could win in a lawsuit.”

        Reply ↓
        2. WellRed*

          No matter what excuse she gives the doc (and assuming they don’t engage in due diligence), the accommodation itself ( taking breaks in a car) is NEVER going to be a reasonable accommodation.

          Reply ↓
        3. metadata minion*

          If the job doesn’t actually require being on site, I’m confused as to how that’s a ridiculous accommodation. Maybe those few on-site tasks are essential and can’t be fairly given to other employees, but it seems like a reasonable thing to ask if coming in to work is a hardship because of chronic fatigue or something like that.

          Reply ↓
    2. Hlao-roo*

      See all the replies to commenter Machine above. The short answer is: no*, because there’s no requirement that people be able to take their breaks in their vehicles.

      *I suppose a more accurate answer is “probably not” instead of a straight “no” because Deleana might have a very hoodwink-able doctor.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Even if she does have a hoodwinkable doctor, employers aren’t required to comply with doctors’ notes if the facts don’t meet the bar to qualify under the ADA.

        Reply ↓
    3. Ellis Bell*

      No doctor is going to write a note saying an asthmatic patient with COPD needs to get more smoke breaks! They would be delighted to scotch that. Even if she doesn’t mention the smoking to her dic and claims she’s being forced to walk to and from the car for her job, the note will simply say she can’t be made to do that any more. It won’t say anything about her getting longer breaks.

      Reply ↓
      2. learnedthehardway*

        The doctor might decide accommodations need to be that the smoker employee doesn’t get breaks, lol. No breaks = no smoking opportunity = much better for the hypothetical asthmatic COPD employee.

        Reply ↓
  20. Ruby Tuesday*

    I used to work with a lot of smokers at one particular job, including my boss. He would typically take 1 smoke break an hour, and they were always at least 15 minutes long. And of course, he was in charge of kid drop-off/pick-up, so he’d roll in around 8:30 (his direct reports worked 7-3:30, unless we had OT), and leave at 5 on the dot. Oh, and take an hour long lunch. So maybe he was working somewhere between 5-6 hrs a day. Anyone taking 15 minute breaks every hour should be fired.
    Sorry, just needed to rant a little lol

    Reply ↓
  21. Fluffy Fish*

    Congrats OP – you’ve won one of those employees who live in an alternate reality. while they are a nightmare to work with, the good news once they are gone they provide fabulous story fodder.

    Reply ↓
  23. Seashell*

    If this doesn’t succeed, maybe her next move will be to ask the doctor for tag to park in a handicapped spot, so she get back to the car more quickly.

    Reply ↓
    2. RLC*

      And if she has a doctor like the one who treated me for a broken ankle, she’s out of luck! Was in a cast and on crutches for 6 weeks after breaking my ankle, and doctor refused to write note to allow me a temporary permit to use handicapped parking. Said that getting to work is a social problem for me, not him, to solve. Made for challenging situations as happened in winter in snow country, we had 12+ feet of snow that winter.
      Even our HR staff were shocked by the doctor’s attitude.

      Reply ↓
      1. Whoopsie*

        Wow! And here my doctor wrote me a note for a temp permit when I asked over the patient portal. (Stress fracture, and no one warned me the boot would be this cumbersome.)

        Reply ↓
        1. RLC*

          Same Dr also cleared me to return to work next morning (break occurred late in workday, it was a workplace injury covered by workers’ compensation insurance). I got repeated calls at home (pre mobile phone era) from my employer’s workers’ compensation nurse who couldn’t figure out why I didn’t answer home phone (I was at work). Nurse was both astonished and horrified that the doctor had cleared me for immediate return, albeit light duty, as typical time off work for this particular injury is 6 weeks. Nurse said she would contact the doctor about it, I’d love to have been a mouse in the corner of Dr’s office and heard the conversation.

          Reply ↓
      2. whatchamacallit*

        OMG I was on crutches for weeks following foot surgery and my doctor also wouldn’t give me a placard. He told me “the DMV doesn’t like me to give them out if you’re not injured that long.” (I think he said 12 weeks at least?) I called the state DMV to ask about that and they basically said yeah, we don’t give them out unless you need them for a long time. I asked “So that’s a state law?” and got “Yeah, it’s like a general rule here” as the answer. (So… not a state law? You just think I should suffer for 3 weeks?)
        This was in South Carolina. Do not get injured there, I guess. My office still let me use the handicapped spot we had in our lot but my car at my apartment was across the street up several floors of a parking garage.

        Reply ↓
  24. Atalanta0jess*

    It’s actually pretty interesting that smoking isn’t covered under the ADA. I would think that behavioral health disorders (including substance disorders) would and should be, so it’s an interesting mental exercise to think about how that might apply!

    Reply ↓
    2. Angstrom*

      Employers are not required to provide time and facilities for addicts to use to satisfy their addictions. We’d have complaints about people leaving their empty bags and dirty needles in the injection room…

      Although it would be interesting if caffine use were classified as a substance disorder. ;-)

      Reply ↓
      1. Jessen*

        Substance use disorders are covered insofar as someone may need accommodations in order to comply with a treatment program.

        Reply ↓
      2. allathian*

        Unlike any other substances that people use, caffeine in moderate doses actually has some health benefits. Some studies suggest that it can reduce appetite and lower the risk of depression, as well as help prevent Alzheimer’s disease, in addition to the stimulant effect people generally consume it for.

        But the key is moderation, and I frankly admit that I drink too much coffee as it is. When I had a stomach bug and couldn’t eat anything and barely got some fluids to stay down, the headache I got from caffeine withdrawal was by far my worst symptom. And I’m definitely not fit to drive before my first cup of coffee.

        Reply ↓
    3. The teapots are on fire.*

      Well, it would be different if smoking was a recognized treatment for tobacco use disorder. Schedule accommodation for counseling appointments, allowing non-smoking stopgaps like gum, letting them call the smoking hotline a couple of times a day? Those sound more like treatment.

      Remember the workplace that tried to make their employees line up for the bus stop outside after work in “boy, girl, boy, girl,” order because an employee said their OCD required this? This was not a recognized treatment for that disorder or a reasonable accommodation.

      Reply ↓
  25. James*

    European perspective. Also, it’s 13 years since I quit smoking, having been a 20 cigs a day guy for 20+ years before that – so back when smoking was much more common. Indeed, most of the places I worked early on had more smokers than non-smokers. And in all that time… none of the places made any extra allowance for smokers. Even in my brief government job, with three set 12-minute coffee breaks and 46-minute lunch breaks (often called “Whitley breaks” in the UK after a 1970s pay agreement with the unions) on a non-smoking site. You fit your smoking around the breaks, not the other way around.

    I had one job where smoking at your desk was allowed, which seems mad now. It was *terrible*. The whole office stank, there was no excuse to just get away from my desk for a few minutes, I would come home and my then-partner, himself a smoker, would complain about the stale tar that adhered to my hair and clothes. I ended up quitting to get away from it!

    So, yeah, back on topic: sorry Deleana, but no. Not even in workers’-rights-first Europe in unionised jobs. Nice try though.

    Reply ↓
    1. AFac*

      My PhD advisor did some of his training in Europe, and he remembers smoking being allowed in the lab, just casually at the benches amidst all the flammable solvents and natural gas spigots.

      Reply ↓
      1. Manders*

        I had a professor that didn’t want to go outside to smoke, so he stuck his head in the chemical fume hood and smoked there so the smoke would vent outside. This was like maybe 10 years ago.

        Reply ↓
    2. Freddy*

      “You fit your smoking around the breaks, not the other way around.” Exactly, and I’m American. I’ve worked many jobs over the decades and have NEVER been allowed to take more breaks than the non smokers. I don’t know where these other commenters have been working.

      Reply ↓
  26. Sigh*

    You could always require employees to take their break time (not necessarily their lunch time) on the premises.

    Reply ↓
  27. CzechMate*

    Controversial opinion here, but I’m Pro Leniency for Smokers.

    Being a smoker isn’t a legally protected disability, but it’s also not something that people do just to be jerks. Nicotine addiction is real and it’s really, really, really hard to stop. New regulations also make it harder to pop out for your cigarette break.

    I say, if they’re an otherwise good employee, just let them have the extra two minutes that it takes to go to the smoking area.

    Reply ↓
      1. CzechMate*

        I don’t love the attitude, but I also sympathize with her a bit–she can’t NOT smoke, and she doesn’t have her regular smoke break, she probably won’t be able to do her job.

        I more wanted to push back on the attitude, “Lol who does she think she IS trying to buy a few extra minutes?” because, again, people don’t smoke because they INTENTIONALLY want to disrupt everyone’s day.

        Reply ↓
        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          I might have sympathy if her worksite became tobacco-free after she’d started working there. But she knew what she was getting into.

          Reply ↓
        2. BerryBlue*

          Also – a few extra minutes on an already lacking break policy.

          I’m shocked at all the comments claiming that two 15 minute breaks for a 6 hour shift is generous because it’s not physical labor. Mental burnout is a thing and in my home state (Washington) labor laws require a 30 minute uninterrupted meal break for any shift over 5 hours. Too many people are thankful for crumbs.

          Reply ↓
          1. Kendall^2*

            But there’s also a 30-min lunch break, in addition to the two 15-min non-lunch breaks. That seems reasonable.

            Reply ↓
          2. Myrin*

            I mean, I’m in a country with the strictest and most worker-friendly workplace laws in the world and even here, an employer doesn’t have to allow any breaks for someone working six hours or less, so this part really doesn’t seem outrageous to me at all.

            Reply ↓
            1. RedinSC*

              Yeah, I think in California, one of the more friendly to worker’s rights… if you only work 6 hours you’re not required to provided the unpaid 30 minute lunch. But you do get the two 15 minute breaks.

              Also here, if you’re working the full 8 hour day, or anything OVER 6 hours, you do have to take your unpaid 30 minute lunch break before the start of the 5th hour, otherwise I believe you’re entitled to an additional 1 hour of paid time (the lunch penalty).

              So, basically with a 6 hour day, she’s not really entitled to longer breaks.

              Reply ↓
        4. fhqwhgads*

          If you can’t not smoke, you don’t apply for a job in a place where the entire campus is no smoking. If you’re allergic to peanuts, you don’t apply for a job in a Skippy factory.

          Reply ↓
      2. TMarin*

        There is no smoking area. It is campus-wide no smoking which means a longer walk than those places that have smoking stations right outside the back door.

        Reply ↓
      1. CzechMate*

        Eh. Depends on the severity of your addiction.

        My reference point is my dad, who started smoking at 18 because he received a cigarette ration when he was in the Marine Corps. He was a pack a day smoker until he was 68. It took him eight tries to quit. When he finally did, it was legitimately traumatic. He used Chantix, which can cause depression and suicidality. It was BAD.

        I remember that he would use nicotine gum and patches on long flights, and he would just walk up and down the aisles for hours smacking his gum.

        Reply ↓
        1. Claire*

          Former chain smoker here. This person only needs 2 cigarettes in 6 hours though – she’s not pushing for more breaks, just longer ones. So sounds like she’d be fine slapping on a patch or chewing gum during work hours. Those things don’t have the soothing ritual aspect present of course, but we all have to compromise/give up stuff we like to be more work-appropriate.

          Reply ↓
        2. Ellis Bell*

          I think the OP would probably be a lot more sympathetic to someone who was pacing up and down, chewing gum and doing their best, even if that meant a longer break occasionally when they slipped off the wagon. Your dad’s story sounds really rough, but I don’t think it’s the equivalent to someone who knew they were taking a job somewhere they couldn’t smoke as much as they presumably want to. This letter isn’t about someone trying to quit eight times and going to desperate measures to do so; it’s someone wailing smokers rights a few weeks in, and expecting to get more breaks than other people, just because they smoke.

          Reply ↓
      2. doreen*

        Part of the problem is that it isn’t only nicotine addiction. It’s also a habit that’s different from most other addictive substances in that it’s more socially acceptable to smoke in public and/or during the workday than it would be to for example, drink outside your office on your 15 minute breaks. . The first however many times I tries to quit smoking with Chantix, I managed to get rid of the physical addiction part but not the habit – which meant I could go hours without a cigarette without bouncing off the walls if I absolutely couldn’t smoke (like on a flight) but if it was possible to smoke (because I had a long enough layover to get back through security) I couldn’t resist.

        I have now finally quit using Wellbutrin – but I’m terrified I’ll stop smoking again if I stop taking it.

        Reply ↓
    3. Angstrom*

      It sounds as if this person *is* using it to be a jerk.

      I understand that nicotine addiction is real and difficult, but there are ways to deal with it other than smoking in your car. Deleana might prefer that, but it doesn’t fit into this workplace and this set of rules. She has to decide if she can live with that.

      Reply ↓
    4. knitted feet*

      Sure it’s hard to stop – it took me about a dozen attempts – but there are other nicotine delivery methods to get you through a work day.

      Reply ↓
    5. Beth*

      I’m pro flexibility for all workers, generally, to the greatest extent possible in the role. People should be able to duck out at any time for long enough to pee or get a drink of water. In most roles, it shouldn’t be a big deal for someone to arrive a few minutes late or take a 17 min break instead of a 15 min break. In many jobs, leaving early for an appointment shouldn’t be a problem as long as you’re getting your work done.

      But 1) there are jobs where that flexibility isn’t possible. If you need front desk coverage at the start of business hours, your receptionist waltzing in 15 mins late every day is a problem. If you’re servers in a restaurant, someone taking extra long breaks leaves someone else covering their tables for extra long.

      And 2) none of this is smoking specific. Someone with nicotine addiction has other options–there are patches, there’s gum, there are vapes–and most workplaces will be able to accommodate at least some of those options. We should all get a little room to be human, but smokers don’t need more flexibility than the rest of us.

      Reply ↓
    6. Saturday*

      But if that’s the situation, she should plan ahead and realize that a job with 15 minute breaks on what sounds like a pretty large no-smoking campus isn’t suitable for her. And we don’t know she’s only taking another 2 minutes.

      Reply ↓
    7. Fluffy Fish*

      Ex-smoker – I have to say nah.

      You’re right it’s hard and it sucks. But society is absolutely right to not accommodate it. A large reason why I finally quit was society basically telling me I was being gross and stupid. Not to mention the stink and second hand exposure to others.

      She’s got a 15 minute break twice a day like everyone else.

      Reply ↓
      1. GammaGirl1908*

        Or her lunch and a 30-minute break, which is plenty for the four ((?) I don’t smoke and have no idea how long a cigarette takes to smoke) cigarettes she is having. She’s not entitled to her perfect solution.

        Reply ↓
    8. just tired*

      That sounds like a good plan to me. It could be she’s tired of smokers being pushed around and treated like dirt JUST because they smoke. I used to smoke, I smoked for many decades and there was a time I had to walk a very long way just to have a damn cigarette and it was a pain in the ass. I eventually quit smoking while at work because it was annoying. But I never thought I could get accommodations for it, that is pretty weird. But yeah take it from me quitting is really really really hard and no smokers are not trying to be jerks they just need a cigarette.

      Reply ↓
      1. metadata minion*

        I have a lot of sympathy for people trying to quit, but meanwhile their addiction doesn’t take precedence over my ability to breathe.

        Reply ↓
      2. Jennifer Strange*

        Sure, but those of us asking you to walk to another area aren’t being jerks either (nor are we treating you like dirt) we just really need to be able to breathe.

        Reply ↓
      3. Ginger Cat Lady*

        You mean JUST because they’re fouling the air around others, right? Because people don’t want to reek of smoke, have an asthma attack, or get lung cancer from secondhand smoke?
        You’re completely and utterly dismissing the impact of your smoking on others.
        You wanna ruin your own lungs, go for it. Just stay away from me, all kids, and anyone who doesn’t want to breath in secondhand smoke.
        Because non-smokers are tired of being treated like our health doesn’t matter by smokers.

        Reply ↓
    9. Jennifer Strange*

      Nicotine addiction is real and it’s really, really, really hard to stop.

      That’s true. Both of my parents smoked when I was a kid. My brother and his wife both smoke (and have tried multiple ways to quit). Until five years ago my FIL smoked. So I’ve seen the struggle first hand and I’m not unsympathetic.

      But there are lots of addictions that are real and really, really, really hard to stop. The solution isn’t to just give the person what they want, though. If Deleana were asking for an accommodation while she sought treatments to quit smoking or something that would be one thing, but this is her just saying, “I choose [because at the end of the day this is a choice, even if addiction is involved] to engage in an activity that significantly eats into my break time, and you need to accommodate me”. That doesn’t fly.

      Reply ↓
    10. ReallyBadPerson*

      I kind of agree with this. I mean, if an employee needs her cigarettes to keep her mood even, I’m fine with her having them. But what I’m not fine with is her entitled attitude. She could easily have said to her boss, hey, I’m addicted to smoking. It keeps me mentally sharp and in a better mood. I have tried to quit (if true), but it isn’t happening. Is there any way you could accommodate my addiction?

      Reply ↓
      1. I Have RBF*

        The accommodation is called “using nicotine substitutes” like gum, patches or lozenges, not “take longer breaks than everyone else because you ‘have to’ smoke.”

        Reply ↓
    11. Kella*

      Deleana can’t expect her employer to invest more in ensuring she has the option to smoke than she does. If Deleana’s addiction is to the point where she physically cannot tolerate going 7 hours (or however long) without a cigarette without it significantly compromising her ability to do her job, and alternatives like gum or a patch will not address the problem, then it is in *Deleana’s* best interest to find a job that has a smoking area within quick walking distance. Just like if my only mode possible mode of transportation is riding the bus, it is in my best interest to find a job in an area that the buses actually service, or that is within reasonable walking distance of a bus stop.

      Yes, there are always limitations to how much control we have over what jobs we get or how long we can go without having employment lined up. But Deleana is demanding her employer to be responsible for something legally is not their responsibility, period and she doesn’t appear to be taking any responsibility for making it work.

      Reply ↓
    12. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      She sounds like a nightmare employee, argumentative and batshit, not one the OP wants to keep.
      Best to get rid of her now, when she’s only been there a few weeks.

      Reply ↓
    14. Raida*

      I am pro-wowthatsucksforyouIunderstand for most people.

      But if this is accurate “because she didn’t have enough time to get to her car, have a relaxing cigarette, and make it back in time as the campus is a non-smoking area and she needs to walk a block (or more) to where she can park and smoke.”

      Then… she wants to enjoy the ciggie. I’ve seen people go through a half cig in two seconds. Enjoyable? No. Effective for them to get what they needed from the chemicals fast? Yes.
      And I’ve seen people power walk, jog, run to a smoking area to get a couple more minutes to focus in on the ciggie as their break.
      What is this person doing? Being a bad employee and coworker, then whinging she needs more time off.
      She could be a great employee and coworker – going to the boss and telling them that after a few test runs her breaks are ending up at 20mins, she needs two smokes a day, this is also when she eats, can she get here 10mins early to balance it out…

      So this comes down to “wowthatsucskforyouandIdon’tcare” because this isn’t a person trying. This is a person who’s tardy even outside of breaks. And then lying about employment laws, or hearing someone say ‘smokers rights’ and repeating it, just can’t be arsed to google [state]+[smoke breaks]+[employment laws].
      She’s not a problem solver, she’s not worth the effort to make special exceptions for.

      My parents both smoked since they were teens, and they’ve both been non-smokers for over 20 years now – took Mum 4 tries I think and Dad 5.

      Reply ↓
    15. Katherine*

      I agree that people need to have more sympathy in general for people with substance addiction, and I’m surprised that there isnt a smoking area closer by: everywhere I’ve worked has had a smoking area within a 2 minute walk.

      I dont think this employee needs accomodations though, as OP said she’s not asking for reasonable things that the job can accomodate, and other commenters have suggested options that are available to her.

      Reply ↓
      1. fhqwhgads*

        I don’t know if the no smoking policy in the letter is the policy of that particular employer/facility or local law, but just to give an example, I’ve lived several places where it’s illegal to smoke at all in city parks. I’m not in NYC and am not saying this applies in NYC but to give a recognizable place example, say you worked in the Central Park Zoo. To smoke legally, you’d have to leave the park entirely, not just the building you work in, not just the zoo. Also lived where it’s illegal to smoke within X yards of a school – and all university buildings were explicitly included in that. But all the university’s buildings were within X yards of each other, so again, to smoke legally, you need to leave campus entirely. So if your work area weren’t already near the edge, it’s potentially a trek. There are no “smoking areas”. You need to go elsewhere in the city where the law doesn’t apply, which might be a 2 minute walk and might be a mile and a half.

        Reply ↓
    16. Art3mis*

      So then do you let people drink on the job because alcohol addiction is real and also really hard to stop?

      Reply ↓
    17. Morty*

      Nicotine addiction is real and it’s really, really, really hard to stop

      asthmatic attacks triggered by cigarette smoke and tobacco usage are also real and it can be hard to stop them when they get going. Especially if you’ve had COVID [yes even with vaccines, for all the judgey mcjudgersons) in the past and now your overall lung function is affected. Ask me how I know :-/

      Meth,crack, cocaine, etc addictions are all real too, and hard to stop (probably harder than nicotine) but we know it isn’t a good idea for people to just do that stuff at work either (do not @ me on this, FFS). It’s physically dangerous for them (risk of overdoses), and it can be physically dangerous for other people too (no, I’d rather not want say, my gallbladder surgery to be done by someone who is tweaking).

      So no, I really don’t see where the OP should be having leniency or sympathy here, or even considering any sort of “aww you poor thing, of course you can have more/longer breaks than everyone else just to finish that pack of Pall Malls!” accommodations.

      ESPECIALLY when said employee is brand new AND already not exactly a shining example of a great employee. The first few weeks or months at a new job are when you’re trying to put your best foot forward. Deanne is continually tripping over her own two feet on purpose and then blaming everyone else. Why should the OP stick her neck out for her?

      Reply ↓
    18. Ginger Cat Lady*

      I’m not. Quitting is an option. The patch is an option. Gum is an option. All those things can get her that nicotine hit without her getting extra break time that other employees do not get.
      Smokers may not do it intentionally to be a jerk, but it IS a crappy thing that impacts others. Smokers foul the air of people around them. Smokers act entitled to more break time than others, leaving everyone else to cover for them because they’re addicted.
      Plus, she’s NOT an “otherwise good employee” she’s causing issues.

      Reply ↓
  28. Generic Name*

    This is giving me flashbacks to the early 00’s when many large companies were banning smoking on their campuses. One place I worked at, a factory, gave employees like a 6 month or year long warning and provided employees with classes and resources to help them quit smoking. I’m positive it was to save on the insurance premiums they paid, but I also couldn’t help but notice that when I went to another line in a different building to run an errand, I’d pass the smoker hut on the way in, and when I came back out like an hour later, the same group of smokers would still be out there. During this same time period, my husband’s company did the same, and there was a legendary email a coworker of his sent out. It was a giant rant about the new smoke-free campus. Apparently it was a real scorcher, as the guy was fired.

    Reply ↓
  29. Bubbles*

    Wow, just wow. You only hired her a few weeks ago, just tell her it’s not working out and let her go, problem solved.

    Reply ↓
    1. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      That would be my suggestion too. I did something similar for pumping – two 30 min breaks instead of 15-30-15.

      Reply ↓
  31. antisocialite*

    As someone who went through hell with disability accommodations with two different employers, this really makes my blood boil.

    Reply ↓
  32. NotmyUsualName*

    I had a boss once who gave smokers more breaks and longer breaks. I started taking “smoke breaks” to walk around the building

    Reply ↓
  34. Lyn*

    Years ago, I worked with a young woman who was a smoker. Sometimes a group of us would go to lunch together. we’d come back from lunch and the rest of us would get back to work; she’d go right back out and take a smoke break.

    Reply ↓
      1. metadata minion*

        But that shouldn’t mean you get a longer lunch break. Why can’t you just smoke for the last however-many minutes of your normal break?

        Reply ↓
    2. Turingtested*

      Years back I managed a restaurant and had an employee explain that they simply couldn’t eat and smoke during their break and trying to rush and do both made them vomit. (Similar though less extreme than OP.) After a bit of back and forth with the employee insisting they needed it for their health, I encouraged them to get a doctor’s note stating their medical need to eat and smoke outside of allotted break time.

      the employee was legitimately shocked that their doctor didn’t see smoking after eating as a health need.

      Somehow they figured out how to eat and smoke in the time allotted without vomiting.

      At the time I was a smoker but come on!

      Reply ↓
  36. Elizabeth West*

    Oh ffs.

    Yes, smoking IS addictive. However, you can go without smoking for quite a while. When I smoked, I also got two 15-minute breaks in addition to my lunch hour at all the office jobs I worked during that time. I took one break mid-morning and the other mid-afternoon, and smoked at lunch after eating. As long as I knew I could smoke during that time, I was able to manage my craving.

    Deleana is full of it. I bet she has a lot of other “my rights” attitudes as well.

    Reply ↓
  37. Deborah M*

    I worked retail for over a decade. It cheesed me off that smokers were generally allowed to duck out for unofficial breaks in addition to their regular ones.

    One manager said he really didn’t see what the big deal was as long as we weren’t busy. I asked if I could step outside whenever “we weren’t busy” and he said of course not. I said “okay, so my reward for being smart enough not to start smoking is having to work harder than the people who did?”

    This was in the wonderful old days when stepping outside to smoke meant exactly that—no need to go any distance away.

    Sorry not sorry for sounding like a jerk. I was born with lung problems that weren’t helped any by being the child of two heavy smokers and growing up in the days when you’d get glared at and teased for not wanting to sit in the smoking section of the restaurant or diner.

    I spent my childhood missing school for weeks at a time thanks to sustaining numerous cases of pneumonia. I spent days in the hospital when I was seven with a collapsed lung. Now that I’m in my fifties, I’m vaccinated, mask everywhere, work at home, and I still just spent more than a month recovering from Covid followed by a case of bronchitis. I’m quite vulnerable healthwise thanks to bad sinuses and my aforementioned unhealthy lungs.

    The employee who claimed that she needs sympathy and special privileges because she’s a smoker really needs to keep a minimum safe distance from me.

    Reply ↓
    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      If I had that kind of boss I’d step outside, light a cigarette, and sit there holding it for 15 minutes.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ellis Bell*

        All these fake smoke break suggestions are reminding me of the joke cigarettes you used to be able to get as a kid in the eighties (imagine a child being able to buy that now!) A bit of red foil on the tip, a hollow tube and some talcum powder filling is all you need.

        Reply ↓
        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          You can still get candy cigarettes! I have left a pack in my guest room for guests. I try to make my guest room a combination of high luxury and weird.

          Reply ↓
          1. Saturday*

            I’d love to find those in a house I was staying in! I have a mental list of all the weird stuff I want to put in my guestroom if I ever get one.

            Reply ↓
            1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

              Ha, I’m having guests soon who would get a laugh out of this, although I’ll actually put them in the main bedroom (because there are two of them and one of me, so I’ll fit better on the 48×70 sleeper). I’ll have to see who sells these; I’m feeling a Vermont Country Store vibe because of all their vintage-style candy, but they might be too wholesome even for the fake cigs.

              Reply ↓
          3. Deborah M*

            I seem to remember candy cigars (chocolate?) being a thing. Also that giving cigars to friends was a way to announce that one’s wife had just given birth. What a weird tradition.

            Reply ↓
        2. Jennifer Strange*

          Those are still around! I’m in a play right now and we’re using them (though they leave a chalk taste in my mouth).

          Reply ↓
        3. MeepMeep123*

          I’ve recently started inspiratory muscle training, and it has often struck me just how much the gadget I’m using looks like some sort of smoking appliance (https://thebreather.com/) I’d totally use that thing to take “un-smoke” breaks if I worked in that kind of place. (Since I work at home, I can “un-smoke” at my desk any time I want)

          Reply ↓
      2. Chirpy*

        Some of us couldn’t handle even that. I’m sensitive to cigarettes particularly, and it’s caused me breathing issues even to just have my coat hanging next to a smoker’s on the coat rack. Third hand smoke is a thing.

        Reply ↓
  39. Zipperhead*

    Betcha that doctor’s note is going to be from Dr. John Doe from 1234 Doctor Street. Either no phone number, or a number that just happens to be the same as Deleana’s.

    Reply ↓
    1. Fluffy Fish*

      I wont say where but early in my career we had an employee who was taking a lot of time off, which we then found out was due to cancer treatment….at John Hopkins. The name is actually Johns – with an s.

      Fascinating because they appeared to have otherwise copied the letterhead logo and all.

      He got all the time off he wished because he got fired.

      Reply ↓
  40. Yankees fans are awesome!*

    “She then said that I was violating her ‘smoker’s rights…'”
    ——

    I would not be able to stop laughing. Good lord…

    Reply ↓
  41. Statler von Waldorf*

    I’m not commenting on the advice given, but I do want to point out that the laws are different in Canada.

    Canadian law refuses to allow employers to treat persons adversely due to a disability through human right legislation. Addictive behaviors are well defined to be included within this definition. It is likely a safe presumption that nicotine addiction would meet this test of a disability under most Canadian human rights laws, though I am unaware of any specific judicial cases regarding this. The arbitration case of Cominco Ltd. v. United Steelworkers of America is the closest that I can think of, and it found that a non-smoking policy was discriminatory in regards to BC’s human right’s laws.

    So if the LW was in Canada, I would advise speaking to an labor attorney regarding this issue and to not take the advice given, as it it not applicable in Canada.

    Reply ↓
    1. Indolent Libertine*

      There must be limits, though. I mean, I find it inconceivable that this law would require an employer to allow a bus driver or truck driver who is an alcoholic to drink behind the wheel on the job.

      Reply ↓
      1. Statler von Waldorf*

        Of course there are limits, and they are “to the point of undue hardship.” What that means depends on the facts of the specific case. It might be, “ha ha no.” It might not. The letter does not provide me with enough information to determine which is the case here, and I am disinclined to speculate.

        One clear example of undue hardship includes accommodations that would pose a significant risk to the health or safety of the worker, colleagues, or the public. This would clearly include allowing an employee to drive drunk, but does not as obviously include an employee smoking. You’re comparing apples and oranges.

        Reply ↓
    2. WellRed*

      Treating an employee equally to others ( in this case, with regard to break times) isn’t treating them adversely, though. And she didn’t say D can’t smoke.

      Reply ↓
      1. Statler von Waldorf*

        That’s where you are wrong. Treating all employees the same can be considered treating them adversely, depending on the specific facts of the case.

        For an obvious example, If I have an employee in a wheelchair, do you honestly think I am treating them all equally if I claim that all employees must enter the building through the front staircase and refuse to let any of them use the elevator in the back? After all, I am treating them all the same, so I can’t be treating any of them adversely, right?

        If there is evidence that this policy is having an oversized impact on a specific employee on prohibited grounds, you are discriminating against them under Canadian law, even if the policy applies to all employees equally.

        Reply ↓
        1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

          We need a Canadian employment lawyer because as has often been stated, non-lawyers frequently get the legal situation wrong.

          Maybe you’re right. However, the case you quoted is related to steelworks. Maybe second-hand smoke in healthcare could count as a “significant risk” to the public there.
          Also, this employee is demanding extra long breaks to indulge her smoking addiction, which is a step beyond not being banned from smoking.

          e.g. FinalJob in Germany – which generally has much stronger employment rights/protections than N America – didn’t ban smoking but smokers had to go outside the buildings and were NOT given extra break time, regardless of disability status or travel time to get outside. In contrast, disabled workers were legally entitled to extra days vacation plus any reasonable accommodations to do their actual work.

          Reply ↓
          1. Statler von Waldorf*

            You’re never going to get one for free for very specific reasons. As a layman with 25+ years of HR experience who knows just enough about the law to be dangerous I’m probably the best you’re going to get for free. If you want more, you’ll need to pay a professional.

            If I was a lawyer, I would already be getting myself in trouble for offering legal advice, as I have offered analysis of the law instead of restricting myself to strictly providing legal education. Offering legal advice can result in the formation of a lawyer-client relationship, which could leave this hypothetical Canadian employment lawyer with a fiduciary responsibility to complete strangers that will not be paying him. This is why real lawyers are usually very careful about not crossing this line between education and advice, and it’s the biggest tell that you are actually dealing with a real lawyer online.

            What I find fascinating is that I have offered my layman’s advice about Canadian law many times over the years, and I have never gotten as much pushback as I have today. I strongly suspect it has a lot more to do with everyone’s views on the morality of smoking than the quality of the legal education I am providing.

            Reply ↓
            1. nnn*

              Except that you’re anonymous and none of know anything about who you are or what you know so of course people aren’t going to take your word as “legal education” about something that sounds like it might be wrong without a link to a source on Canadian law that backs this up. You don’t need to do that, of course, we’re all just talking, but that’s why you’re getting pushback.

              Reply ↓
              1. Statler von Waldorf*

                Removed. Please don’t be snarky to people here. They just suggested links, but you’re not obligated to provide them. – Alison

                Reply ↓
            2. WellRed*

              At any rate, thus is an American blog so the presumption is that it’s an American company unless otherwise noted.

              Reply ↓
    3. juliebulie*

      OP isn’t asking to treat the employee “adversely.” The new employee is asking to be given special privileges that will help her enjoy her breaks, not to do her work. I don’t buy that this would work out better for her in Canada.

      Reply ↓
      1. Statler von Waldorf*

        I actually cited a court case to back up my assertion, so I don’t know what else to say.

        It would work out better for her in Canada, as Canadian human right laws define addiction as a disability more broadly than the US ADA does. That certainly doesn’t mean she would win, but she would at least have a case under Canadian human right laws.

        Reply ↓
    4. Librarian of Things*

      It is pretty common in the US for health care facilities to be non-smoking throughout their campuses, whether that’s the hospital’s decision or their state’s. The federal Veterans Administration banned smoking on campus in 2019. One of the largest hospital groups in my area even tests for nicotine in their drug screening for many facilities, so you can’t smoke at home, either; for facilities that don’t do nicotine testing, they still prohibit smoking on campus and they prohibit smelling of smoke while at work, so no smoke breaks off-campus in your car. The public health interest of keeping patients and staff safe from second-hand smoke outweighs the individual’s interest in smoking.

      Reply ↓
      1. Statler von Waldorf*

        The same is true for out health facilities up here. They do have the authority to ban smoking on their grounds, but if an employee is able to leave the property, I don’t believe they can dictate what the employee does off the clock though this might vary by province.

        What I know they can’t legally do in Canada is refuse to hire someone for testing positive for nicotine, as that is considered discrimination against a prohibited group. When I worked oilfield, I processed paperwork for many drug tests. Multiple huge oilfield companies specifically do not test for nicotine as policy, as this was the advice from their very expensive lawyers to avoid potential discrimination lawsuits.

        Now I’m curious about firing someone smelling like smoke without any other contributing factors. You might be able to make a BFOR claim in a health care context, and I could definitely see a lawsuit over conflicting accommodations caused by tobacco addiction and someone with environmental sensitivities. All I know for certain is that I wouldn’t want to be the one paying the lawyers to figure it all out.

        Reply ↓
    5. Pocket Mouse*

      I strongly suspect, though, that the goal of the law is to allow the employee to prevent and/or treat symptoms of withdrawal. Using the substance in question, particularly when the substance in question is nicotine, is not the only way to do that.

      Reply ↓
  42. Emelius*

    You give two 15-minute breaks for a 6-hour shift? I want to come work for you! I’ve been working in retail and restaurants my entire working life and I have never seen anywhere offer something that generous. you should not feel bad at all about not letting this person have more break time. a lot of places I’ve worked wouldn’t give even one break for a 6-hour shift.

    Reply ↓
    1. Older Than Dirt*

      Yes, a 6-hour shift at my most recent job gave us a 15 minute paid break plus an unpaid 30 minute lunch, all required by law, so 6.5 hrs from clock-in to clock-out.

      Reply ↓
  43. JAASON*

    Throwing this out. How close is the employee parking? Could she leave, drive around while having a smoke, come back, park her vehicle, and be back in time?

    The way most smokers reek/smell of smoke I wish employers could ask on their application if the applicants smoke.

    Reply ↓
  44. Overwrought & Undercompensated*

    I got the impression Deleana was saying the note was for a disability that prevented her from walking fast enough to do what she wanted where she needed to do it. I’m curious to see if the doctor would write a note that she needs more time to walk to WHERE SHE CAN SMOKE…

    But the logic just doesn’t track (and it’s not the first time I’ve heard it in over 20 years of managing in more than one place). If I, a non-smoker, wanted to run out for food on my shift at the big bookstore, I had to be back on time, regardless of how busy the road we were on or how far the restaurant. When a smoker needed more time to get to the approved smoking area and finish one, they would argue they needed more time for break. Because they needed it. As if I didn’t need FOOD…

    Reply ↓
  45. Owl-a-roo*

    I work in healthcare – at our org, employees aren’t permitted to smoke before or during shifts, even off-premises or in their cars. Policy states that a supervisor who smells smoke on an employee can ask them to leave.

    I’m not sure what that looks like in practice, though. I dated somebody who lived in a home with smokers but didn’t smoke themselves, and their clothing smelled like smoke. I’d assume the supervisor would need to smell it on the employee’s breath or something.

    Reply ↓
    1. Cordelia*

      In practice, that person would be asked to leave too. The policy really means that an employee can’t come to work smelling of smoke.

      Reply ↓
    2. JustaTech*

      I work in biotech and we have a policy that states that if a manufacturing employee smokes on break they mush wash out their mouth before going back into the clean facility (they’ll be putting on a brand-new clean set of scrubs every time they go in, so it won’t be on their clothes and their hair will be covered).

      Reply ↓
  46. Non-smoker sympathizer*

    I agree with the substance of the response but not the tone. The employer can and should be firm on the job expectations, but at the same time, I feel sympathetic to Deleana. For her, the situation isn’t fair (a more mobile person could still smoke on their breaks, another disabled person might be lucky enough to easily quit or reduce their smoking, etc). “Unfair” doesn’t mean “illegal,” and she made an unreasonable request. Still, I got my hackles up reading the “haha” and “entertainment” parts of this response, and comments to the effect that Deleana sounds entitled.

    If Deleana were an entitled would-be manipulator, I don’t think she’d be throwing this flimsy Hail Mary AFTER being threatened with disciplinary action.

    I think it’s more likely, she was too mistrusting to be proactive, she is under-/misinformed about disability rights, she is desperate for this job even though its location on a medical campus is hard for her, she is scared to lose it, and she lacks the professional soft skills to negotiate the office world. If she won’t adapt after the employer lays out her options and she gets fired, that’s a natural consequence, but I can’t laugh at her for trying what (little) she knew.

    OP: if you consider that she might be acting unreasonably not because she’s delusional but because she’s desperate, that’s useful info to have in confronting her. “I’m guessing you must really want to work here given how hard the day to day is for you—is that true?” could be a conversation opener.

    Reply ↓
    1. Angstrom*

      True, if she had the soft skills to lead with “I work better if I can smoke on my breaks — is there a way to accomodate that?”, this would be a different discussion. But she responded to a disciplinary meeting about tardiness with essentially “I have the right to be late”. That’s not an attitude that wins you a lot of second chances.

      Reply ↓
      1. Dawn*

        When you open a conversation by making legal threats to your employer instead of a polite discussion, you had better be ready to back them up – and she can’t.

        Reply ↓
    2. Morty*

      IDK, this feels like it’s veering really close into like, “aww poor thing just doesn’t know any better” classism or something. Because it’s only those undesirable Poors who smoke, of course(/s).

      Reply ↓
  48. Seen Too Much*

    Just to agree – this is not an ADA issue. If she has a mobility issue, that would be something to start an accommodation conversation.

    What ICs forget, or don’t understand, is this is a conversation. The employee makes a request, the company decides if they agree or if there is something else that works better. The answer can be no.

    I agree with Alison, you should definitely start the exit process. She is showing you her crazy. You should believe it.

    Reply ↓
  49. Raida*

    Hahhahhahaaa!

    It’s simple mate – you get 2x 15min breaks.
    You use them as you see fit.

    Separately, you’re coming in to work late, making up employment laws that don’t exist, trying to get benefits you aren’t eligible for, and let’s just move along with the termination process…

    Nobody’s gonna be sad the Health Related Retail worker *doesn’t* smell like ciggies

    Reply ↓
    1. It's Marie - Not Maria*

      I personally love it when employees try to make up employment laws that don’t exist. Honey/Dude, I have been in HR for 30 years, please show me when this information came from, because it ain’t real.

      Reply ↓
      1. Dawn*

        To be fair I’ve certainly seen the other end of it, where long-term HR representatives try to make up employment laws that don’t exist.

        Reply ↓
  50. HannahS*

    You know, this was a pretty unkind answer. I don’t think people with addictions trying to find a way to hold down a job are entertaining; I think they’re desperate. Deleana sounds frustrating, sure, but I don’t think this is worth laughing derisively about.

    Speaking as someone with both asthma and a medical degree, I DESPISE smoking. But sometimes I tell my patients not to quit, for any wide number of reasons that are not their employer’s business. And while I wouldn’t write a letter to someone’s employer advocating for longer breaks, I am often in the position of trying to get hospitals and congregate living facilities to allow my patients to smoke. So I don’t think there’s any cause for a tone of “Haha everyone knows that DOCTORS don’t want their patients to SMOKE,” because you’re not in the room and you don’t know that.

    I think the OP should set limits with Deleana, but you can express a willingness to work with her. She might not know that a smoke-free campus means that she can use nicotine gum, an inhaler, a patch, or chew, and you can let her know that. You might consider offering her a single 30-minute break, instead of two 15-minute ones.

    Reply ↓
    2. Dawn*

      It’s Deleana’s approach that’s at issue here, and pretty hilarious, not the fact of her addiction. Trying to make legal threats to scare someone into giving you a longer smoke break is not the way to go here.

      Signed,

      Someone who smoked for 20 years and only fully quit nicotine about a year ago

      Reply ↓
      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        This. If Deleana had come to the OP and said “here’s a problem I’m having, is there any way we can work it out,” she’d probably be getting a lot more sympathy here. But demanding her “smoker’s rights” be respected is opening her up for some well-deserved derision.

        Reply ↓
    3. Raida*

      I would consider making an offer of one 30min break, or 2x 20min breaks and she starts 10mins early – if she’s *such* a good member of the team everyone would be happy she’s sticking around.

      But in the case of being so tardy repeatedly they could be fired, then trying to go back with unsupported ADA claim, and making up/lying/not researching an employee right – I don’t see how this is a person to fight *for*. This is a person flinging terms around they don’t understand, thinking the business will be spooked by potential legal action.

      If she’d said “I’ve done it a few times now boss, and I can’t fit in my smoke and food into 15mins. Can we discuss 1x 30min break or 2x 20min breaks and I start earlier?” or “Can I use 1x 20 and 1x 10 min break, and the longer one I can get in a smoke?” Then this is someone who is problem solving, and cares about fairness and their coworkers and is proactive and hey yeah let’s give them support.

      I don’t offer additional support to retain staff who are, from the get go, pretty damn mediocre. I tell them the policies and job tasks am fair across the board in applying them across the board. If they can’t hit that minimum, then they aren’t suited.

      Reply ↓
    4. YesPhoebeWould*

      Um, no. Not every pathetic excuse needs to be taken seriously or dealt with “compassionately”. Sometimes, if a request is simply ridiculous (like this is), the correct answer is to just say “No. That’s ridiculous. We’re not even going to discuss it.”

      This isn’t a recognized disability. It isn’t reasonable. It is patently silly. AND she’s being particularly aggressive about it.

      She KNEW (or should have known) this was a non-smoking campus when she took the job. Sh’e being difficult and aggressive about a nonsense problem of her own choosing, that she should have had complete for knowledge of.

      Being “kind” and “reasonable” here is “We’ll wipe the slate clean about your previous tardiness. You get the exact same breaks everyone else does. Period. No discussion. But if you are tardy in the future returning from breaks, you will be terminated. End of discussion. Have a great day!”

      Reply ↓
    5. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      We’re laughing at the sheer entitlement of declaring that she has a right to extra breaks to indulge an addiction.
      We’d probably be pretty sympathetic if she’d gone to the OP, said she had a problem and could they work something out e.g. one 30-minute break instead of 2 x 15, or chewing tobacco on campus etc

      Reply ↓
    6. Boof*

      if you have a medical degree you know substances don’t have to be smoked, and that smoking is hazardous to both the person doing it as well as people around them… so no, work really doesn’t need to help her get her smokes in on paid time? Also properly handling addiction means compassion for helping folks to get better /make good decisions and getting over the physical dependencies, not enabling the problem behaviors.

      Reply ↓
    7. Morty*

      She might not know that a smoke-free campus means that she can use nicotine gum, an inhaler, a patch, or chew, and you can let her know that

      I mean, if she’s manipulative enough to argue, “I’m allowed to be late” or whatever, and “smoker’s rights” (which isn’t even a thing), then she’s able to know that alternatives to cigarettes exist. And either way, it’s on her to manage her condition in a way where the solution ISN’T just “everyone lets her do whatever she wants.”

      Reply ↓
  51. It's Marie - Not Maria*

    For this day and age, we have a remarkably high ratio of smokers to non-smokers. We have designated smoking areas, and you must be on a break or lunch if you are taking a smoke break. We have two paid 15 minutes and an unpaid hour lunch. We do allow smokers to take more, shorter breaks to smoke, say 4 seven minute breaks, as long as the total for their 8 hour shift does not exceed 30 minutes. We do NOT allow people to break up their lunch in a similar way.

    I am with Alison, I would love to get a gander at Medical Documentation which allows longer or more frequent breaks for a smoker.

    Reply ↓
  52. Dark Knight in White Satin*

    A couple of decades ago, the “smoking club” in my office tried to argue that a group of us weren’t allowed to take “Non-Smoke” exercise breaks (stair-climbing between the 17th and 32nd floors) — because the whole point of the smoke break was to accommodate only smokers (while WE stayed behind to do THEIR work)!

    That argument didn’t get far.

    Reply ↓
    2. Free Meerkats*

      Back in the day, I noticed that the smokers were taking longer breaks so I started reading on my breaks. When Smokey McSmokeStink would leave, I’d gram my novel and relax and keep reading until they were back. Boss gave me crap (probably because I was visibly not working) and I pointed out that I was simply taking the same break as them. Break times were enforced on everyone after that – not the ideal solution, I was getting some good reading time in, but fair to everyone.

      Reply ↓
    3. Older Than Dirt*

      I’ve worked more than one place in the past where taking a smoke break was like having a blank signed check– as often and as long as declared with no repercussions. And even that was a marginal improvement over the smoking workplaces where employees simply lit up on the job.

      Reply ↓
  54. Lab snep*

    Ahahaha.

    I once worked in a kitchen and I was the only one that didn’t smoke. I was constantly in there while everyone was smoking.

    The place was spotless, I hadn’t had a break yet and everyone was out smoking. Again. The manager came by (TO GO OUT TO SMOKE) and snidely said “Time to lean?” Because I was resting.

    I looked him dead in the eye and said “I am taking my fucking smoke break”

    He left me alone after that.

    Reply ↓
  55. CuppaCake*

    I’m going to be the doctor’s note isn’t going to say she needs to smoke, it’s going to say that her ability to walk is limited and therefore she needs more time on breaks. Still doesn’t work, because accommodating a disability is about making it possible for an employee to do their job, not about it making it possible for them to engage in any particular activity during a rest break.

    Reply ↓
    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Very reasonably may need more break time to get lunch or go to the loo, but to walk to where she can smoke, or indulge in any other addiction?

      Reply ↓
  56. Dr Sarah*

    Speaking as a doctor, I can tell you that if anyone asked me for a doctor’s note for that reason, that would become one of the ‘whoa, can you believe *this* happened?’ stories to trade with other doctors. And, yes, it would be a ‘hell, no’ with a heavy dose of ‘*seriously??*’ mixed in.

    Reply ↓
  58. I AM a Lawyer*

    This sounds like the kind of idea someone would get from TikTok, where everyone miraculously becomes an employment lawyer as soon as they open the app.

    Reply ↓
  59. PhyllisB*

    Much as I hate the idea of accommodating smoking, could she perhaps be given permission to bundle her two 15 minutes into one 30 minutes break? That would give her time to get to her car and back.

    Reply ↓
  60. Observer*

    By the way, Deleana is wrong on ADA on multiple fronts. Besides the issue that Alison highlighted, she’s wrong about all of the rest of it.

    For one thing, you don’t have to accommodate anything that’s not job related. So you don’t need to accommodate her to enable her to get her smoke breaks, any more than you would need to accommodate a disability that kept her from posting to Facebook (assuming she’s not your social media manager).

    Also, she’s wrong about not needing to tell you what her disability is, and that a note from the doctor automatically means that have to do what the doctor says.

    Aside from the fact that no competent doctor is going to give her a medical document stating that her disability requires that she have a smoke break, I am trying to imagine what kind of disability she’s dreaming up that would qualify under the law that could only be accommodated by insuring that she gets a smoke break. Maybe I don’t have a good imagination because I simply cannot come up with a scenario. Not that I cannot come up with a *likely* scenario, but I cannot come up with *anything* that’s not pure science fiction.

    Reply ↓
  61. Ava*

    I am honestly surprised that Alison’s opinion was so harsh. I struggle to fit my lunch and a healthy 10 to 15 minute walk into the half hour lunch I am allowed because of things like waiting for the microwave and having to change shoes. I do my best and my boss doesn’t make a big stink over it. That’s how most offices I have worked at have been. The way I see it, the employee is being penalized for following the rules and would be better off just taking off her badge, smoking on campus, and seeing if anyone calls her on it. By sticking to the absolute letter of what she is legally required to provide, she is driving away the employee she chose and narrowing her candidate pool to nonsmokers. I hope that works out for OP.

    Reply ↓
    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Sounds like the same amateur playbook that Deleana read:
      Smoking daily on campus will soon be found out, which would provide a handy justification to get rid of a problem employee. No ID may get her escorted off campus first – if she is not recognised by security as an employee.

      Smokers can indeed be employed there – many can walk a block during a 15-minute break and/or suck in enough smoke during their 16 non-working hours.
      This particular smoker is an example of the combative entitled jerk that most employers want to exclude from their candidate pool.
      The OP chose her because she looked great on paper – but now knows it was a mistake and needs someone else to do the job as required.

      Reply ↓
    3. Ginger Cat Lady*

      I didn’t find Alison’s response harsh at all. Baffling that you do. Everyone gets the same break time.
      Lunch break is for lunch. You like to do lunch + walk. Okay, I get that you enjoy it and it probably helps you have a better afternoon. Cool. But adding a walk to your lunch break does make it hard for you to have time for that. It’s not that your break is too short, it’s that you are trying to do too much. If you decided that you wanted to do lunch + a 30 min Yoga With Adrienne video, should you be able to extend your lunch break for that? What if you wanted to do lunch + an hour’s walk?
      Your lunch break is long enough for lunch AND it’s the same lunch break everyone gets. Why should you get a longer lunch than everyone else?

      Reply ↓
    4. fhqwhgads*

      She’s not being penalized for following the rules because she’s not currently following the rules. The rules are 15 minute breaks. She’s regularly coming back late. That’s not a rule follower.

      Reply ↓
  62. AndreaP*

    How about offering to change the two 15-minute breaks to one 30-minute break? Then she would have time to walk to wherever she is permitted to smoke.

    Reply ↓
  63. I like diet Coke but don't need an accommodation*

    Maybe Deleana and the person who demanded diet Coke as a religious accommodation can team up and start their own company that accommodates anything and everything.

    Reply ↓

Leave a Comment

Before you comment: Please be kind, stay on-topic, and follow the site's commenting rules.
You can report an ad, tech, or typo issue here.

Subscribe to all comments on this post by RSS