my promotion was pulled after I tried to negotiate the salary

by Alison Green on March 19, 2025

A reader writes:

I’m writing to you because I believe what happened to me today (literally 30 minutes ago) is a lesson to be learned — though I’m struggling to identify exactly what that lesson is.

For the past eight months, I’ve been working for a small company, and I absolutely love my job. In fact, since starting here, I’ve grown to love it even more. My manager (the CEO) told me that I would be receiving a promotion, but I decided to wait until everything was officially confirmed in writing before getting too excited.

That day finally arrived, and I received an email with my promotion letter. However, the salary increase was disappointingly low — almost £35K below market rates. (I work in the UK.) I responded with a huge thank you for the opportunity, while also asking if there was room for a discussion regarding the salary.

I followed your advice and went into the salary discussion well-prepared. I outlined the projects I have successfully worked on and delivered, highlighting my achievements. I also provided data on market salary benchmarks for the role and detailed what the new position would entail, including line management responsibilities.

During the discussion, my manager tried to downplay the promotion, saying it was “just a change of title” and that I was “already doing the job” — as if that justified the lack of a meaningful salary increase. Fast forward to the actual discussion, and he was very adamant that the salary wouldn’t be changed. We ended the conversation with him saying, “I’ll think about it.”

During the discussion, I also mentioned that I was looking forward to contributing to the leadership team. Then today, completely out of the blue, he told me that he didn’t like the conversation and that I would no longer be getting promoted.

I feel absolutely shattered. I tried to understand his reasoning, and he said it was because of the conversation we had. I explained that salary discussions are completely normal and that if I was hiring/promoting someone, I would expect to have a salary conversation. I suggested that perhaps we weren’t on the same page, but to me, it didn’t seem like a terrible conversation at all.

I’d really appreciate your thoughts on this.

Wow. Your manager … kind of sucks here.

I suppose it’s possible that something about the way you handled the conversation was really off — you were rude or overly argumentative, or the number you were asking for was wildly out of whack with what the role is envisioned as. But if that were the case, a decent manager would have been more explicit about what the issue was. It would be one thing if he’d said, “This position will require handling delicate negotiations with skill and tact, and after you shouted at me, slammed your fist on the table, and cited numbers for a completely different job, I’m rethinking whether it makes sense to move you into the role as we conceived it.” But it sounds like what he said was more that he didn’t like that you had the audacity to think you could try to negotiate salary at all and should have just been grateful for what you were offered.

Now, maybe I’m wrong about that. I wasn’t there for the conversation, and I don’t know what your boss’s side of this would be. But it sounds like you don’t know either, because he didn’t bother to elaborate — and that itself makes his handling of it suspect.

Also, his statement that it was “just a change of title” doesn’t make a lot of sense because they did offer you a raise with it, so a raise was already on the table; you were just negotiating the amount.

It is true that salaries for internal promotions don’t always match up well with market benchmarks. A lot of companies, either formally or informally, put limits on the increase they’ll give when you take an internal promotion, even if that puts your new salary below market rates for the role. That generally doesn’t make sense; they should pay what the work is worth, which is what they’d pay an outside candidate. However, there are cases where that approach is more defensible, like if you’re getting a chance at a job that you probably wouldn’t have been competitive for as an outside candidate, but which you’re getting because you’re internal. (Even then, though, once you’ve demonstrated you can do the job at a high level, you should be bumped to market rate for the work.) It’s possible there was something like that at work here — but then your manager should have explained that, not left the impression that he was yanking the offer solely because you tried to negotiate.

If I were in your shoes, I’d go back to your manager to talk, framing it as, “I hoped we could talk through what happened with the promotion discussion because it’s important to me to be on the same page as you. My understanding has always been that it’s normal to negotiate salary, whether as an outside candidate or an internal one, and I want to make sure I understand what happened. Was there something about the way I approached the conversation that raised concerns for you?”

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{ 263 comments }

{ 263 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Livining la vida not loca*

    Please update your resume. It might be time to look elsewhere. I am really sorry this happened to you. It might be time to look back and look for red flags that were not obvious. Best wishes!

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    1. Rotating Username*

      I agree–call me a pessimist, and I do think it’s worth having the conversation Alison suggested–but I think this relationship is soured beyond recovery.

      Reply ↓
      1. Kevin Sours*

        Beyond the relationship issues, the company has made it clear they have no intention of paying market wages for the work people do for them.

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    2. Jules the 3rd*

      This. LW, if it went down just as you wrote, your boss sucks and isn’t going to change, and does not value you. You deserve to find a place that does.

      Your boss said you were “already doing the job”: that means you should have gotten the pay rise when they added the responsibilities and tasks, or when they decided you were doing those tasks correctly (ie after a month or two). The fact that he’s resisting it now means he is ok with getting higher level work from you without higher level pay. True loyalty goes both ways.

      Look through the archives at some of the ‘toxic workplace’ letters and see how many things you recognize from your work.

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      1. Lilly*

        Hi everyone, unfortunately, it went down just as I wrote. I’ve had a few days to reflect and digest the whole conversation, and I must admit to myself that I couldn’t have been more polite or well-mannered. It is not in my nature to be rude, slam the table, or be insensitive. I am aware of those around me and appreciate that budget considerations come into play.

        My gut feeling is that he didn’t like it simply because, in his eyes, he was giving me a “gift”—this promotion was something to be grateful for, with no questions asked. Needless to say, my CV is now floating around and will, at some point, land somewhere better

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        1. sdog*

          I’m SO glad you are looking elsewhere and wish you good luck landing somewhere better! The conversation would have left a very sour taste in my mouth, and I don’t think I could go back and work here.

          Also, if you are going above and beyond in your current role (i.e., “doing the job anyway”), I would not blame you for doing exactly what you need to do moving forward, nothing more or less.

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        3. Elizabeth West*

          I hope you find a new job with a manager who recognizes your worth and is thrilled to have you. Good luck! *fingers crossed*

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        5. MK*

          Can you clarify something? Your letter says the offered raise was “almost £35K below market rates”, which read as “35 thousand pounds below market rate”; but that doesn’t make a lot of sense given the context.

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          1. Defying Gravity*

            I had this exact question – is LW currently underpaid? Was she anticipating a more than 35k increase with the promotion? Because that does seem like a HUGE increase for a promotion especially in a small company. Would love some clarification!

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            1. Red*

              Especially in the UK, when the average salary *is* £35k! I’m really curious what role/industry the LW is in, and whether those salaries were being offered at companies of the same size or smaller/larger than their current company.

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              1. Arrietty*

                I was thinking the same – I’ve never earned £35,000 in my life. An increase that’s £35k less than expected? How much are they earning?!

                Reply ↓
            1. Lexi Vipond*

              £35K is more than the difference between the median and 90th percentile salaries in the UK, so it seems unlikely as a difference for the same job, or as a single pay rise.

              Reply ↓
              1. Curiouser and Curiouser*

                Yeah, I get that – I guess I just assumed it was something where they were already underpaid? Looks like Lilly confirmed that below, so makes more sense now – but I get the confusion!

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          3. Lilly*

            Thanks for asking. The role I was promoted to was a significant step up—my very first big jump to a Head of position. Naturally, I didn’t expect to receive the same salary as my more experienced colleagues, as I understand that experience plays a major role in these things.

            For context, we’re forming a brand-new leadership team, and my more experienced colleagues who are also stepping into Head of roles are receiving very high salaries. I know this because, well… we don’t have an HR department—I am the doer and the HR person all in one!

            So when it was my turn, I didn’t expect the same high salary jump, but I did expect something fair. Instead, I got a £3K increase. I mean, I wasn’t expecting a CEO salary, and I certainly didn’t ask for one. I simply requested a reasonable increase—still well below senior level—considering my junior status. But three grand? Come on…

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            1. Her My Own Knee*

              That offer is insulting when you are taking on a much more complex job with vastly increased responsibility. Good luck in your job search!

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            2. HonorBox*

              I think this is even more reason to be more aggressive with your CV circulation. If you’re already doing the more work, you’re aware of what others are making and the vast difference between them and you, and the cavalier attitude your boss showed in the conversations with you, it is time to get out.

              It sounds very much like you’re doing far more work than what you’re being paid to do already and he thought the small increase and title change would be enough for you given your lack of experience comparative to your counterparts. And it sounds like he’s going to be sorely mistaken when you move on to a different workplace.

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              1. Sans Serif*

                Notice how the conversation didn’t bother him enough to stop having her do the extra work; he’s just decided not to give her the title or money. Yeah, get out!

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            3. M2*

              Just saw this now, so ignore my comment down below. That isn’t good. I would apply elsewhere.

              What % is the £3K increase? When I was promoted to what is equivalent to “Head of Department” I was only given a 7% increase! It wasn’t nearly as close as others and I fought for 10%, didn’t get that either.

              I am sorry. Sounds like they are trying to take advantage. Is it possible for the CEO to change their mind, you take the new title and then use it to apply elsewhere? Good luck and I am sorry you were treated this way!

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            4. Mamma Mia!*

              That’s quite interesting that you have internal data points on salary! I don’t know anything about UK law/work policy/culture, but is pay equity a thing that people care about at your company? My best success negotiating internal salary in my relatively progressive US state was finding out what a male colleague of mine made — $30,000 more than I, with a LOWER title in addition to less experience, tenure, education, and productivity — and then going to my boss to say, hmmmmmm, what else might be different between me (female) and my colleague (male)?

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              1. Mamma Mia!*

                P.S. To clarify, I know you said you’re much more junior, but I’d think for a Head of title, there’d still be a general wage band, e.g. can your boss really justify why someone with the same title makes thaaaaaaaaaaat much more?

                Reply ↓
          4. Sashaa*

            Maybe she’s currently underpaid, and this promotion would make her even more underpaid? So current role is usually paid £65k, but she’s on £45k. Promotion is usually paid £85k, they offered her £50k.

            She asked to negotiate, not asked for market rate. She might have been asking for £55k, which would still be under market rate but would be a decent pay rise from what she is on now.

            Reply ↓
              1. Nanny Ogg*

                With this extra context it feels like your boss has definitely pulled a power move.
                At least he’s shown his true colours before you moved into a senior role working alongside him. I hope you can start job hunting and get a killer role elsewhere.

                Looking forward to your Xmas update on how this all plays out.

                Reply ↓
              2. College Career Counselor*

                I have seen this kind of situation before where the internal promotion salary is based on:
                a) a % of the existing salary the person is currently making, not “market rate” for the new position
                b) being capped at 2x (or whatever) what a COL increase would be
                c) some internal company rule that you can never make more than current salary + $X when you get promoted because of “reasons”

                I’m currently in the process of trying to promote someone I supervise (they’ve earned it), and unfortunately, I know that the biggest bump I’m going to be able to offer is about $5k to put the person in the next salary band. That’s just what the institution is willing to commit for internal promotion to the next level.

                Unfortunately, it looks like you will have to move out to move up.

                Reply ↓
                1. JB (not in Houston)*

                  Yes, it seems like the boss determined the raise amount as a percentage over the OP’s current salary rather than what the *position* should pay. That is bad management, but it is depressingly common.

        6. Crashing into Middle Age*

          It would make sense, in my opinion, to go back and ask something like “because my promotion is not going through, I assume I will no longer be doing X or Y. I had taken on these duties assuming the promotion but believe they should be done by someone more senior.” but worded better.

          I had something similar happen as a government worker– was offered a limited assignment at a higher level but told they could not pay me at that higher level. I told my boss I was willing but wanted to be guaranteed a year at that higher level so I would be eligible to apply for positions at the level above that (the only options for promotion at my location at that time). I remember his jaw getting stiff and him saying he couldn’t do that and it sounded like it wasn’t going to work. A week or so later, he started sending me tasks related to that higher position and saying they were “other duties as assigned.” I pushed back because they were very different than my government job description and he was clearly trying to force me to do the higher level work, now with no credit for work at that level. I think our HR told him he couldn’t because he never mentioned it to me again. In my case, though, he definitely resented that I hadn’t been grateful for the opportunity to take on more, higher level work with no benefit to myself and the relationship soured. ah, well, I’m at the same Agency, several levels higher and he went somewhere else and I don’t have to see his dumb face anymore.

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          1. Great Frogs of Literature*

            While you’re right that it’s makes sense, I’d be VERY careful of the ramifications of doing so — this guy has already shown that he’s unreasonable and thinks she should have been grateful for the “gift” of the promotion. He clearly thinks that he can give her more work without any meaningful recognition, and I do not at all trust that he would gracefully accept pushback.

            Lilly would be morally/ethically well within her rights to do that, but if it were me, I’d be considering whether I was willing to get fired (or become the boss’s new metaphorical punching bag) in order to stop doing that work. I may be being over-dramatic here, but to me, it’s a possible outcome now that the relationship has started to sour.

            (Lilly, best of luck in going on to bigger and better things.)

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            1. Lokifan*

              You’d want to think about the relationship going sour but in the UK you have to have a process before you fire someone – verbal then written warnings etc. (unless it’s gross misconduct but that wouldn’t qualify!)

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        7. Susannah*

          Oh, Lilly, I am looking forward to the update – and hopefully soon – when you calmly and professionally go into your boss’s office with your resignation and explanation that you have been hired somewhere that pays you what you are worth!

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        8. Landry*

          Oh, I know that “gift” perspective all too well. My boss is the exact same way. I received a promotion last year as well as new management responsibilities with a very minimal raise (that he didn’t even tell me about — I had to discover it myself in ADP). You are not alone. Good for you for starting to search elsewhere!

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          1. Cheesehead*

            I had a job early in my career where I started at the lowest part of the salary band, and raises were as little as they could get away with. I was going above and beyond. Something came out from corporate where people in my position could get a bit of extra income if we did something, so I ran with that. I showed my manager something I’d done proactively. It’s now over 30 years later, and I STILL remember how he called me “greedy” for wanting to earn a few extra bucks when given the chance. It did not endear me to him.

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        11. Belle*

          2 questions:

          1) Are you targeting the higher title in your job search, and making sure your CV reflects that? You’re already doing the work of the higher title, so you should get that new job (and salary) to match.

          2) You said your boss offered you a raise that was STILL 35k under market rate?? As in you’re already being vastly underpaid??? That alone tells me this relationship is toast.

          Get a new job for sure, and be prepared for your boss to take the news poorly when you leave. Do not under any circumstances accept a counteroffer.

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        12. SHEILA, the co-host*

          Good luck! I hope in a few months I get to laugh along with you when your boss “just can’t understand” why you would want to leave.

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      2. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        yes–sounds like an old-fashioned case of wanting more from an employee with very little (raise, real promotion) in return.

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    3. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      Unfortunately, if the boss is one who will yank a promotion because the LW did a very normal thing, how else will he punish the LW in the future? It’s still probably worth having that follow-up conversation, since the LW may be able to learn something from it. (Though that might be that the boss has some other wild ideas about things, rather than actionable insight into this particular situation). But I’d be prepared for the real possibility that things are going to get worse because the manager is generally unreasonable.

      Reply ↓
      1. Lilly*

        Yeah – I considered bringing up the conversation again, but I’m unsure. What if the second discussion goes unexpectedly well? Would I be able to trust him again? What should I expect? At the first disagreement at the leadership table, would I be at risk of losing my job? I’ll certainly give it some thought, but you can tell how the day will go from the morning. The reaction I experienced from him was clearly led by emotions…not well handled.

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        1. Chauncy Gardener*

          I agree. I’m not sure there’s anything to be gained from attempting to discuss this with him again. He sounds emotional and not coming from any kind of constructive and professional place. He just showed you very clearly who is he. I would believe him.
          And flee!

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        2. A Significant Tree*

          TBH I saw the recommendation to have that follow up conversation as a way to see if getting the title was still an option – play the game, you know? And then shop that upgraded title around, land a new job at market rate for that title, and GTFO.

          But then I’m still salty about the one time I asked for a raise based on having been granted an advanced degree in a situation where that usually came with a pay bump. I got shot down pretty rudely and 25 years later I still think that guy was a jerk for handling it so poorly. Maybe I caught him on a bad day, but I didn’t trust him at all after that.

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        4. Belle*

          The fact he views raises as “gifts” tells you all you need to know. That’s not a gift, that’s called fair market value for your hard work, which he clearly feels entitled to. He thinks you should be grateful for being saddled with more work and earning peanuts in return.

          I don’t see the point in having another discussion with him about it. Discussions can be helpful when there’s something worth saving in a relationship, but I don’t think you have anything to work with here. I’d turn your attention to finding new opportunities and getting out.

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    4. Generic Name*

      Yep. It’s time to job search. Your company has just shown you how much they value you. They expect you to do a higher level job for a lower level salary. This is unfortunately typical for many small companies.

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      1. Reluctant Mezzo*

        But we’re told job hopping is bad and that we must be much more loyal to a company than they ever will be for us…

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    1. FricketyFrack*

      Oh you know he will. “I gave them a great opportunity and they didn’t appreciate all I’ve done!” sort of thing, with zero self-reflection on whether the opportunity was really all that great for anyone but him. Always seems to be the way with this kind of boss.

      I do wonder whether LW is male or female – not that the CEO might not have done the same to a man, but it does seem like a lot of male bosses are just astounded when women have the audacity to advocate for themselves.

      Reply ↓
      1. Dawn*

        Yeah, I was leaning strongly towards assuming “boss is a man, employee is a woman” here, that’s definitely how I envisioned it.

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          1. Lilly*

            Yep! I am a woman…It’s frustrating to think that still in leadership conversations, being a woman could still be a factor in how you’re treated. It’s not just disappointing, this is a sign to fly away….

            Reply ↓
        3. Berry*

          Yep, I would have bet my bank account as I was reading that the LW was a woman. I know negotiating is common, but I’ve heard a similar story from another woman (there, negotiating a job offer and not a raise, and they pulled the offer *because* she wanted to negotiate), and it makes me terrified to negotiate an offer in this job market.

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      2. Spiders Everywhere*

        1. Women get punished for advocating for themselves
        2. Women learn not to advocate for themselves out of self preservation
        3. “The gender pay gap is just because women don’t advocate for themselves!”

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        3. Chauncy Gardener*

          Lather, rinse, repeat.
          Although this guy actually sounds like he could be like that with anyone under him. I used to work for his twin….

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      3. ArtsNerd*

        Funny how my mental image of the boss is a dead ringer for my old executive director, who would absolutely freeze up and sometimes completely melt down if I demonstrated expertise in an area he wasn’t confident about.

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      4. StarTrek Nutcase*

        Just my (F) experience, but in 45 yrs of working (profit, non-profit, and government), I’ve had at least 15 managers ranging from horrid to great and total pretty evenly split male/female. The horrid to sucky ones (6) and the mediocre to great (9) were all also evenly split. I could say the same for coworkers.

        I do think the bad 6 had different motivations for their crappiness, but I didn’t care WHY I was mistreated. If my raise was teeny because of my sex vs policy vs personal differences, I didn’t care. Any focus on the manager’s sex distracts from the mistreatment itself and what action I would take in response. Caveat: obviously I’m not talking situations of blatant sexism or harassment (ex. my boss in the 80s who expected a lip kiss when he handed out paper paychecks).

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    2. WeirdChemist*

      Or suddenly put the promotion back into play again, possibly with the higher salary LW was requesting!

      (If that happens LW, don’t trust it!)

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      1. Lilly*

        Ah, no way! That is never going to happen. I have a feeling he’s waiting for me to crawl back, apologising profusely just for daring to ask for what I rightfully deserve.

        I honestly believe this is all about power—a classic control move. A game of “You asked, and I said no simply because I can.” There was no real reasoning behind it, just a blunt “I didn’t like our conversation, so no promotion anymore.”

        Imagine my face. It goes without saying that I was absolutely shattered. It took every ounce of my professionalism to keep a straight face and not let the frustration show.

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        1. WeirdChemist*

          There’s definitely times when bosses/companies will be like “No I can’t/won’t give you what you want….. wait you’re *leaving*???? Jk I can figure out how to get you what you want…”

          As so said, it’s about control and wanting to diminish you. If he keeps you from getting promoted, he has control over you, but if you leave then he looses that control. And if you leave to a better situation than he’s giving you, then it also undermines the way he’s trying to diminish you.

          So if you give notice he could try to offer the promotion back up. But yeah, definitely don’t trust it if he does! This is a very crappy way to be treated!

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          1. D*

            Oh, yes. Many moons ago, at my first permanent office job, the office manager left. I assumed some of her duties — namely the medical billing aspect — but not others, like scheduling office assistants and other leadership roles.

            I got a $1/hr raise at the time, and was happy with that, as I’d never done medical billing elsewhere, except under the oversight of the manager who was leaving. After successfully doing it for a year without a manager, I approached the practice owner for a more significant raise. He turned me down and said that I was only entitled to the same salary band as the office assistants because the medical billing duties were “other tasks as assigned.”

            I began job hunting and got a new job elsewhere in a completely different field with a $4/hr raise. When I told him, he asked what he could do to get me to stay, and I told him nothing: I saw myself growing in the new field, and I could not stand the mundane routine of medical billing. 10 or so years later, I’m grateful for that career change and I’ve got a job I love.

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    3. Lilly*

      I imagined the same scenario myself. I have confidence in my skills—though, of course, there’s always room for improvement—but I’ll continue doing my job to the best of my abilities. That said, it does leave a bitter taste. I love what I do and wish things were different, but it’s better to know who I’m dealing with now rather than be even more disappointed two or three years down the line.

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      1. jez chickena*

        You mentioned that there were other promotions with significant salary bumps. Was your boss receiving one of these? I ask because I’ve gotten screwed out of raises because there was only so much raise budget allotted to the dept, and my boss decided to take it all.

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    4. Orora*

      This line in the letter is what stood out to me: “During the discussion, my manager tried to downplay the promotion, saying it was ‘just a change of title’ and that I was ‘already doing the job’”

      This is a Shut Up Promotion. If you are already doing the job at your current rate, he thinks he shouldn’t have to pay more. He’s willing to give a title change (because that’s free) and maybe a small increase in order to get you to stop complaining, but he has no intention of paying you what the position is worth.

      Dust off that resume.

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  3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

    I wish managers realized that a response like “I’m sorry, but that’s just not in the budget” or “You need to understand that means we’d have to bill our clients at XX/hour for you, and we don’t have any labor categories like that.” goes over much better with your employees.

    Please give an objective business reason if you’ve got one.

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    2. Pay no attention...*

      Yes, they should absolutely be able to give both a reason for the first offer and any reason why the OPs proposed numbers are rejected. It could be as simple as, “That’s more than Pat’s salary for the same title and doing the same work,” or even, “The proposed salary increase would put you above what a higher level Director is being paid.” It sucks, but if everyone at the company is below market (and I just have a feeling they are) the OP isn’t going to budge that needle with market data.

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    3. MigraineMonth*

      I’m not sure if the business reason is as convincing as why the salary doesn’t match the market rate they found in their research.

      To be blunt, it doesn’t particularly matter what the company’s budget is. If a graphic designer in this region costs $X, they should be prepared to pay $X or explain why they aren’t paying that much. Maybe the health insurance coverage really is unusually good. Maybe this firm’s “senior graphic designer” role is closer to other company’s “graphic designer II” role and should be compared to that. Maybe the PTO allowances are far better than industry norms and you get paid overtime.

      In any case, there should be a business reason for the *employee* to want to work for less than they could make elsewhere, not just for the business to want to pay less.

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      1. ecnaseener*

        Both can be true IMO — the employer can and should say “i know it’s below market rate, but it’s what we have the budget for, take it or leave it” if that’s true. And then the employee can take it or leave it (or take it and job-hunt externally)!

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        1. MigraineMonth*

          True, I just think that’s as convincing an argument as telling your boss you need a raise because you just bought a house (rather than because you have new responsibilities and improved skills, or because the COL or market rate have increased).

          Employees don’t get paid according to their needs, and they shouldn’t accept pay according to the company’s needs (since I assume the company would always budget less for salary if they could get away with it). It’s like those living wage arguments: if your business can’t survive if it pays its employees a living wage, maybe the business just can’t survive (at least until the market adjusts).

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      2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        In the UK, difficult for benefits to compensate for low salary: maybe one might accept 5% for wfh or 8 weeks vacation.
        Of course a very cheap housing area usually means a big difference in salary compared to London.

        Private health insurance may be regarded by some as a nice perk, but has nowhere near the same importance as in the USA.

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    4. Smithy*

      I also think that when an employer caps promotions at X%, or a certain dollar amount, it can be wildly frustrating but can also save a lot of time and heartache.

      In places where I’ve seen this – advancement essentially becomes separated into internal promotions with those caps, or jobs being posted (internally or externally) that people have to apply for. And while it’s competitive, it’s a way to offer more than that capped amount.

      I think there are ways to make these rules that don’t have substantial business cases for every individual situation – but just having rules and clarity can help so much.

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      1. MigraineMonth*

        What is the benefit, though? Why not allow market rate to dictate what employees are paid after promotion?

        Reply ↓
  4. Different username for this since this is very recognizable*

    I had a coworker who started job hunting the instant he got promoted to team lead, because our workplace caps raises when being promoted to 7% of your original salary, and while we were being kind of underpaid for what we were doing before, he let it slide because the job also doesn’t require a lot of the certifications that would normally be required. so lower pay, no need to maintain expensive certs made sense.

    Once he established that he would not be being paid anywhere near what an actual team lead should be being paid in our field, he started job hunting, got an offer within two months, and left. And our HR rep gave him a shocked look and said “but all you do is open tickets” when he told her how much he was making for the new job.

    It was glorious. So yeah, some places really, really do not want to give raises when they promote internal employees. It sucks, but the good news is that in most job markets (maybe not the current job market, but hopefully it’ll improve in a year or two) you can leverage the new title for a better job at another company.

    Reply ↓
    1. Wilbur*

      “All you do is open tickets?” Then why TF would you give that person a promotion? Incredible way to reveal that you don’t know what someone does or what the market looks like for those positions.

      Reply ↓
    2. Miette*

      Legendary.

      In many industries, finding another job is often the best means to a promotion. I hope OP can at least get the title and original offer back, then start an immediate job search.

      Reply ↓
    3. Sloanicota*

      One of the worst things about our system is that most raises/promotions seem to be based on percentages of your current salary – so if you start off lower, that reverberates across your entire career at that organization :( Stinks for those of us who took roles in periods of economic downturn. Truly, the only way to fix it is to get a new job.

      Reply ↓
      2. Lana Kane*

        A few years ago, I was promoted from an hourly position to salaried supervisor. They started me off at the bare minimum of the payscale and of course, each meager COL raise was based off that. A couple of years in, the org did a salary review to see if anyone was being paid below market rates. The communication that went out was that they were proud to announce that very few people were found to qualify. Unfortunately, I was one of those few people. They bumped me up 14%. If they hadn’t done that large-scale salary review, I never would have stood a chance at asking for a raise — I know I would have been told there was no room in the budget.

        Reply ↓
    4. JSPA*

      Yeah, I’m guessing one of three things. The most likely is that when they saw the comparisons, they presumed the LW would use the promotion as a springboard to a similar title elsewhere, with better pay, and decided to try to kneecap the LW and search by rescinding the promotion.

      The less likely is that the title is ambiguous, the comps included those higher level jobs, and that the LW was mistaken that their new title would have brought them into the sorts of meetings they were envisioning.

      The third is that the title normally indeed is in that higher salary band, normally indeed does involve participation in high level meetings, and the boss misunderstood and mis-promoted the LW to that title, believing it to be a smaller promotion to a mid-management role…or the business uses very non-standard role names, and the boss is either unaware how out of step they are, or expected the LW to have somehow taken in by osmosis, the employer-specific definitions.

      If the LW wants to leave, I think they can say they were offered a promotion to that title, but without comensurate pay boost. If they want to stay (good benefits, vesting, location?) they might want to ask the boss, “It seems we were working from different understandings of what my role would be, and what the title of Chief Llama Strategist automatically entails, here. I apologize for not asking to talk those things through with you before going through the process of pulling comparisons.”

      Reply ↓
    5. Occasionally Informed*

      I worked at a place that capped raises at 10%, even with a title change. In theory, an exception could be made up to 15%, but that required CEO approval which basically never happened (to anyone anywhere near my level in the heirarchy).

      Unsurprisingly, that was one of the worst places I ever worked. The same one that disappeared people (Alison’s slate article from last month). And also who had a clause in its handbook that if they discovered you were job hunting, they would consider you to have voluntarily resigned.

      Reply ↓
  5. I feel ya*

    I just want to say that similar things have happened to me the two times I asked for a raise (once I was laid off after I asked for a raise!) and it’s really demoralizing. The common wisdom seems to be “the worst they can say is no” but that’s definitely not always true. It’s made me extremely averse to negotiating salary or asking for raises at all—which obviously is not good! But it’s hard to bounce back from and get over that mental block.

    Reply ↓
    1. PenguinWrangler*

      This is something I struggle with so much, as an anxious, conflict-averse person who feels like advocating for themselves is inviting conflict. Everyone says that “the worst they can say is no” and that’s just not been my experience, there are outcomes that feel worse emotionally than a simple no, and there are outcomes like this with actual consequences. I had a similar experience, did good work, got nothing but COLAs for 4 years, asked for a raise, got turned down, then got laid off 3 months later. It felt like they were connected and I haven’t asked for a raise since.

      Reply ↓
      1. I feel ya*

        I am actually *not* a conflict-averse person in real life, but I am a nonprofit professional (read: not lavishly paid) who lives in a rural area (aka not tons of options) and prioritizes (above almost all else) the ability to work from home. So I often have the feeling of having to take what I can get and then needing to hold onto it without rocking the boat. I fear the people who champion “the worst they can say is no” are not people living paycheck to paycheck who can’t afford to lose what money they do have coming in. In my case, since it’s happened twice, it feels less like irrational anxiety and more like common, practical sense.

        Reply ↓
      2. Heck, darn, and other salty expressions*

        I guess these places figure you already have a foot out the door if you get turned down for a raise. I don’t know if these employers were having financial trouble and headed for layoffs anyway or if it was retaliatory. Were others laid off along with you? Maybe research their financial health before asking for a raise, then you’ll know if a layoff was retaliatory or just bad timing.

        Reply ↓
    2. Raises Hand…*

      I had an offer pulled when I asked to be paid another 12k/ year and $5k in signing bonus to match the offers they gave June graduates. I was a December grad and we all got the offers within a week of each other. According to HR they realized they were overpaying for the degree and adjusted – in a week I think not. Also nothing had happened to the university in that week to affect its reputation.

      Reply ↓
      2. Dawn*

        I mean, you could have just let them take advantage of you instead, but I don’t see that as ultimately being a win for you.

        Reply ↓
    3. Hannah Lee*

      “The common wisdom seems to be “the worst they can say is no” but that’s definitely not always true.”

      There was a Harvard Business School study that backs your statement up. Especially for women who try to negotiate pay or ask for a promotion, there are often negative consequences, just for asking. Negative consequences that are not regularly there for men, particularly who do the exact same thing.

      Reply ↓
      1. I feel ya*

        I just want to say thank you for this comment; it’s nice to feel validated, because I often feel like my wariness to negotiate or push for a raise makes me weak or pathetic, and I don’t consider myself a weak person at all. It’s hard to overcome the evidence of your own experience, and while this data sucks it’s good to know it’s not just me.

        Reply ↓
        1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

          Well, that’s you adding a layer on top of the common wisdom that isn’t there though. You should try to remove all the feelings/judginess entirely and assess situations on fact.

          I also think “the worst they can say is no” *is* what happened to the LW. And now that they know that, they can make a decision with the new information they have.

          If you have seen other people have promotions pulled for negotiating at *this* job, then you know that is likely to happen and you wouldn’t ask. That’s not weak or pathetic or any other name-calling, it’s being realistic based on the facts. If you are reacting to things at Current Job based on things at Old Job, you might be getting in your own way. That still doesn’t make you weak or pathetic though. Really try to stop saying mean things to yourself.

          Reply ↓
      2. Lo*

        Yep – I have experienced this many times. With some people (mostly men in my experience but also some women), if you even slightly advocate for yourself, they are just done with you. Infuriating.

        Reply ↓
      3. Fluff*

        This.

        There are so many lines on the ______ (not white male) tax form. Beyond the “they can only say no” one time penalty.

        Woman
        Black Man
        Back Woman
        Trans
        Disabled
        Foreign Tax
        etc.

        Additional taxes for wrong tone, wrong words, out of place, more researched, more data, more skill, pointing out additional skill, wrong look, wrong hair, tattoo, accent, fat, wrong culture, etc. Once you get the tax, chances are, you keep getting taxed by that leadership.

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    4. Palmer*

      It is demoralizing partially because it reveals the inequality and how little they really value you.

      But that already existed, this just lets you see it and encourages you to act on it.

      Reply ↓
    5. Laser99*

      Yes. “It doesn’t hurt to ask” is essentially the American national motto, but imo it isn’t true.

      Reply ↓
  6. preach*

    time to take that talent and hard work they were going to reward you for with that promotion and go to somewhere that’ll also be willing to pay appropriately for it. my favorite part is the “you’re already doing the job”… so can i get back pay then ha? your boss is a jerk.

    Reply ↓
  7. Shrimp Emplaced*

    I am outraged for OP — even if (and the if is doing a lot work there) the boss had a reason for yanking the promotion, the lack of communication and transparency as to why is such a failure of leadership that his credibility is completely lost.

    Not only that, but way to utterly demotivate a clearly valued contributor who, prior to this, was thrilled by the job and the work.

    OP, if the boss treats your followup convo with anything but respect and clarity, I’d take that as a sign that your chances of moving up at all are subject to the whims of a thin-skinned authoritarian CEO who’s absurdly out of touch with business norms. In that case, you might need to map out a move to another job. I’m so sorry.

    Reply ↓
  8. Hiring Mgr*

    I think the only possible lesson here is to ask about the raise part of the promotion earlier in the process. If I was told I’d be getting a promotion, asking about the new salary would be one of the first things I’d mention

    Not that it would have made a difference, but it might have saved LW some severe disappointment if this was all known ahead of time

    Reply ↓
    1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      I am not sure. I think it could have led to a more obnoxious situation where the boss refused to discuss anything at all.
      OP: Thank you for the opportunity. Can we discuss the additions to the role and the salary the title brings?
      Boss: You will get a raise and I’m sure you’ll be happy with it.
      OP: I agree. Can we look at these things now?
      Boss: You will get a letter from HR.
      OP: And then we can discuss it?
      Boss: You will get a letter from HR when your promotion is finalized.
      OP: I think you would be better able to explain the new scope of the role.
      Boss: You are already doing the work. There is nothing to discuss. HR will tell your your new salary (implied: because that is all you are interested in)

      Time for a new job, OP.

      Reply ↓
      1. Sloanicota*

        Yeah TBH my read here is that OP didn’t do anything wrong, the company was determined to underpay them so their only option was take it or leave it :( (Or look for another role, obviously).

        Reply ↓
      2. Hiring Mgr*

        Yes but if that was the reaction of the manager, I’d say it’s better to know all this sooner rather than later. I don’t think it would change the outcome at all though

        Reply ↓
      3. JustaTech*

        Oh, I’ve had that conversation. Even when I did advocate for myself on salary – all I asked for was the same salary that a completely comparable person in my previous (lower) position was getting.

        Then when the promotion paperwork was going through I asked HR to see the salary range for the new title. “That’s confidential.” “Are you saying I can’t see the salary range for my own position? But state statue XYZ says that this kind of salary information must be available.” “Oh, oh, the salary range, sure, here it is.”

        Reply ↓
    2. Lilly*

      Thanks so much for all your comments. I wish I weren’t alone in facing these kinds of situations, but it seems like many of us have been through something similar—and I’m truly sorry for all of you.

      Thanks for the tip, Hiring Mgr. When he first brought up this promotion, I was intrigued and asked for more details—specifically, what the new role would actually entail. That was, without a doubt, the first red flag… he was very, very vague.

      A month later, after he had already started updating internal documents with my shiny new job title (I swear, this actually happened!), I set up a meeting to discuss it again. Still vague. Still no clarity. Looking back, silly me—I should have known better…

      Reply ↓
      1. learnedthehardway*

        Definitely time to “act your wage” – ie. don’t take on any of these “new responsibilities” or anything outside your current role. Do your current job well, but no more.

        All the best in your job search – I hope you soon find a role that pays what you are worth, and a manager who values their team members.

        Reply ↓
      2. Ellis Bell*

        I’m curious whether his managing style was typically this high handed in other ways. I think your next role will be more supportive, as well as fairly paid.

        Reply ↓
      3. Boof*

        Ugh, that sucks, sorry.
        It looks like you are already dusting off your CV and I think the you can “learn” from this is your boss will not treat you respectfully, not where it materially counts anyway. I think this is still valuable in that better to move on if you want to be paid fairly sooner rather than not have had the conversation at all (and I guess maybe have a title but still be paid below market wage?).
        I think for your immediate time you probably have two options – pull back on all the “duties” you were supposed to be doing for the promotion that didn’t happen, if you don’t actually want to be doing those things, or if you actually like the idea of advancing maybe play the game of dropping the salary push and see if you can still get the title and knocking things out of the park while you’re busily applying elsewhere for the same level position (for proper pay of course).

        Reply ↓
  9. Dawn*

    I know you say you really like this job, LW, and I don’t mean to downplay that, but it’s time to find a new one. They are very clearly taking advantage of your love for the job to hideously underpay you for your work, and that’s not somewhere you want to be long-term.

    Reply ↓
  10. ImprobableSpork*

    This is the new normal. It’s become pretty common to have job offers pulled because you try to negotiate salary. All of the advice about negotiating is quickly going the way of “look them in the eye with a firm handshake”.

    Reply ↓
    1. stebuu*

      I was promoted last year, negotiated myself an extra 10% raise as part of the promotion. It’s still the standard to advocate for yourself.

      Reply ↓
    2. Sloanicota*

      It’s the not-new normal for companies to want to underpay their employees / pay as little as possible. The result is that employees literally can’t afford to have organizational loyalty. We all need to be searching for new roles and following the money because not ALL companies act like this. But for the ones that do, there’s not a lot an employee can do about it.

      Reply ↓
    4. Tristan*

      I don’t know if there’s data to back that up, but I have a feeling that it’s not the new normal to get a promotion offer pulled for negotiating salary. For another anecdote, I was promoted last year and negotiated a 5% bump with no issues.

      Reply ↓
    5. Plate of Wings*

      I’m not sure this is the new normal. This probably happened “back in the day” just as often because of vindictive and stingy people with power. Not normal then or now, certainly uncommon, but it happened.

      Reply ↓
  11. Amber Rose*

    I believe the lesson to be learned here is that your manager’s true colors show as soon as you start talking about money. Reasonable management will either accept your negotiations or professionally reject them. Unreasonable, bad management will reject you as a person.

    LW, I understand you’ve come to love this role and the company, and I do think you should try again to have a conversation, but I suspect the answer will be that he was personally offended by you wanting more money instead of being a “team player” or whatever BS.

    And much like with any relationship, when someone tells you who they are, believe them.

    Reply ↓
    1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      Exactly this. You’ve gotten some useful information about the CEO. Are there any red flags you might have missed because of your enthusiasm for your work or the company? No judgment on that, since it’s human nature. I only ask because it can be useful to look back and see if there were signs you missed that you want to watch out for in the future.

      Reply ↓
    2. MigraineMonth*

      Agreed. I’m sorry, OP, this really sucks, but it is better to know this about your boss/company CEO now rather than later.

      Reply ↓
  12. Artemesia*

    Would your boss have reacted the same way to a man asking for a raise on promotion? This just shouts sexism to me. You need to aggressively ramp up a job search — of course in your own time and no pressure to jump unless you find something you want. But this place will never value you and this manager sucks and isn’t going to change.

    Reply ↓
    1. Typity*

      OP’s gender is not stated — but I would be very surprised if this letter was written by a man.

      (So sorry this happened, OP, but of course you did nothing odd or wrong at all.)

      Reply ↓
  13. Smithy*

    Just a real side-eye to the manager here.

    I recently went through a ridiculously long process to get an internal promotion, and when I heard the increase it felt like a gut punch for how low it felt. However, as irritating as all that was, my manager also shared that there was not an opportunity to negotiate.

    While it was irritating, it was also final.

    Reply ↓
    1. Sloanicota*

      See, that’s actually more direct and helpful than what OP went through, in a way. It’s like the discussion this morning about the 5-point rating scale. If the company just said “we’re not able to do raises this year, so your score has no monetary value” that’s actually *more respectful* than playing games or downgrading employees to a 3 because they don’t want to pay them the bonus!

      Reply ↓
      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        Yup. The one time I asked for more money than the offer when moving up in my organization, the manager said they couldn’t and told me the reasons why. It was fine.

        Reply ↓
      2. Smithy*

        Oh – I genuinely think that’s a far better approach than what they did with the OP. Which genuinely, why I’m side eyeing the manager.

        To put your direct report in a position in front of the CEO like that – the due diligence would have been to be more direct around what that situation could mean. Could the manager ask for it, but it was highly unlikely to change the situation? Even if the manager didn’t know about the risk of the promotion being pulled, if they knew it would use up a lot of capital, the CEO didn’t typically do this, etc. all of that should have been shared.

        Reply ↓
    2. Dr. Doll*

      In my university, they haaaate raises so much. Raises are only given for added duties and responsibilities, not for good performance. So we “add duties” that sorta kinda exist but sorta not really which causes problems down the line. And then management will slow-roll for months, and the paperwork trails keep changing. As a team lead, this leaves me in a terrible position: Team member applies for a raise with my help. Management sits on it for weeks. Paperwork has a small error. Sit for longer. Correct the error. Management sits on it for weeks. Months later, they get a 3% raise. Meanwhile my team member asks me every.single.week. if there’s an update. It makes me look like I’m not advocating for them.

      Reply ↓
    3. Scandinavian Vacationer*

      …And the manager may be hamstrung by ridiculous (and previously unknown to mgr) HR policies about limiting internal raises. Going to bat for an employee, changing their job classification to match their other 2 peers, and then getting the salary info from HR (no input from me) was a huge and heavy lift as mgr. Then the obvious disappointment from my employee when she gets the salary info. And sadly, also a surprise to me when HR states “this is our practice (with internal employees)” and I’m thinking “how am I supposed to know this? mind meld?” No where is this internal employee raise limit written.
      Clearly not the same as this situation, but sometimes mgrs are just as frustrated as employees in these decisions.

      Reply ↓
  14. Miette*

    “Was there something about the way I approached the conversation that raised concerns for you?”

    Yes – I think the fact you dared to ask for it at all and weren’t falling over with gratitude for it is the problem. Your boss is a jerk. I would begin a job search if this happened to me.

    Reply ↓
    1. Bringerofbrownies*

      I’m dying to know if LW is a woman. Because I can get a lot of commenters, and Alison, saying that bad companies simply don’t pay internal candidates enough, cap promotion increases, etc, and all that being true and yet the boss and CEO being so angry and resentful about LW even asking to negotiate? That makes me think there’s something more at work about them being so mad that LW has the audacity to even ask. That “how dare you” attitude is something I understand well as a woman who has navigated some pretty thorny echelons of the professional world.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        The LW has commented a few times (with the name Lilly) and she confirmed in one of her comments that she is a woman.

        Reply ↓
      2. Ellis Bell*

        Yeah, I think that getting a flat “no” during internal pay negotiations could absolutely happen to a man, but the level of spite and sulking shown towards OP, for having the temerity to ask, is very specific flavour of sexist. If OP had accepted the chance to be so very severely underpaid, my bet is they would have flaunted her as a “woman in leadership” every fricking International Women’s Day, but expected her to keep quiet about the actual pay she’s getting.

        Reply ↓
    2. learnedthehardway*

      Yeah – I don’t think it is worth asking that question. It just gives the boss an excuse for justifying their lousy decision.

      Reply ↓
  15. bamcheeks*

    £35k is a huge disparity in the UK — like, it’s more than the difference between my very first full-time graduate salary in 2001 and my current salary 23 years, multiple promotions and inflation later, and I’m on the 75th centile. I’m kind of finding it hard to wrap my head around what the numbers could be if you were expecting £35k more than what you are offered: even if you’re in 90th centile that would be more than half your salary again. Is there any possibility this conversation showed your manager that you were on wildly different pages about what the promotion entailed?

    Reply ↓
    1. Beth*

      It could be that OP’s expectations were way out of line, but it wouldn’t shock me to learn that the kind of boss that gets mad about their employees negotiating their pay also is the kind of boss who wildly underpays people.

      Reply ↓
      1. Sloanicota*

        I’m hoping OP didn’t actually go in an ask for $35K more … just used the knowledge that they were already underpaid to push for a little more than what was offered, perhaps in the 10-15% range. There can be power in being the person who names a figure first, which is what the organization did here, because now the rest of your negotiation is likely bounded by that number.

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    3. londonedit*

      That was my thought…I don’t earn a lot more than £35k, and I’ve been in my career for 20 years (yay, publishing). The idea of expecting an increase that was £35k more than the increase you were offered does blow my mind somewhat. I’m willing to accept that the higher salary is within the realms of possibility for the role, and I’m also willing to accept that the CEO is a bad manager, but that sort of discrepancy seems beyond not quite being on the same page.

      Reply ↓
      1. Thegreatprevaricator*

        Yeah I’m wondering if there’s a bit of transatlantic culture differences here? Or maybe not.. I’ve never been in the kind of work where it’s possible to negotiate salaries significantly (currently public sector, previously in the arts and culture sector)

        Reply ↓
        1. londonedit*

          Same. I’ve never worked for a publishing company that did ‘merit raises’ – most would do an annual cost of living increase across the board (say 2% or 3% each year), and if you did get a promotion then you’d usually be offered maybe £1k/£2k a year more, but that’s it. There isn’t really a ‘you’re doing a great job, have a pay rise’ thing going on. And even with the pay increase that comes with a promotion, yes you might be able to negotiate a little bit, but we’re talking they offer you £2k more, you ask for £3k more, and they say final offer £2.5k more. We’re not talking thousands and thousands here! Certainly nothing in the realms of £35k.

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          1. Sloanicota*

            There’s some ambiguity in the letter to me. If OP is going from not managing anyone to having staff report to them, or if they’re going up to Senior Director level and that’s what they mean by “contributing to the leadership team” that’s a pretty big increase in responsibility. I can’t speak to the UK, but why would you even take on that much more work for a thousand pounds per year? You’re not even going to notice that increase in your monthly paycheck, unless I truly have no grasp on the UK economy.

            Reply ↓
            1. bamcheeks*

              They also said it’s a small company, and that they are directly managed by the CEO. If you’re going from HR Lead (no direct reports) to Head of People (two direct reports) at a company with 20 employees, that’s much more like going from HR Advisor to HR Manager at a large organisation than it is jumping from individual contributor to senior leadership.

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            2. londonedit*

              I mean, sure, it definitely doesn’t sound like this is publishing. Because you don’t even throw those sorts of numbers around at all in publishing. But in my experience, if you’re already in a company and you do something like going from Assistant Editor to Editor, or Editor to Commissioning Editor, you’re probably looking at a £2-£3k increase to go along with that. There isn’t really an opportunity with the way publishing jobs are structured for someone to make a big jump with a huge amount of extra responsibility. Probably at a really senior level you might be getting a bit more for a promotion, but I’d be surprised if it ever went any higher than that. I mean, my boss only earns about £65k a year and so them asking for even a £10k increase would be big in percentage terms. You might be able to negotiate for slightly more at all levels if you were to get a brand new job with a different company, but generally salaries are fairly standard across the board. The last time I got a new job I ended up on £2k more than I’d been earning in my previous role.

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      2. Susannah*

        It’s not clear from the letter… bit LW said the offer was 35K pounds less than industry norm. She (describes herself in the comments as she) did not say that’s what she *asked* for.

        Reply ↓
    4. Duckling*

      I was astonished at this as well – I’m struggling to think of a field outside investment banking where someone could reasonably expect at £35k increase for one promotion level and no change in qualifications. I think that figure is about the median salary in itself.

      I do know someone who expected a very steep trajectory from management to C-suite six figures, but suffice to say they were disappointed – and are not likely to ever reach that level, probably because they don’t understand the strategic level of planning or the effects of their other behaviour.

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      1. TechWorker*

        Er.. tech? (But also OP has clarified they did NOT request a £35k raise, just more than they were offered (£3k).

        I successfully negotiated a ~£25k raise after a promotion which had come with a ~£7k raise where I was like ‘wait a minute, now I’m the same grade & responsibility as all these senior men who earn way more than me’. I honestly think it would have taken them years to close the difference if I left it to them (oh they’re still underpaid but we only get so much budget) & I got really lucky with when I asked. So not quite £35k total but not far off!

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    5. Sloanicota*

      I did wonder … I know my ‘salary research’ when I was young was often waaaay out of step with what was realistic for me in my role. It’s hard not to get an optimistic eye when you start hearing good numbers in digging around online.

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    6. Mornington Crescent*

      I wondered if there was a word or two missing, and it’s meant to say “£35k, *which is* below market rates”.

      I wonder where OP works and what their industry is that a £35k disparity could be possible; it seems enormous otherwise.

      Reply ↓
    7. Creative comms*

      I had exactly this thought, I absolutely cannot get my head around this. Maybe the numbers are a red herring but based on that I am wondering if the salary increase asked for was so off base that it called their judgement into question.

      Unless it’s a typo?

      Reply ↓
    8. Nanny Ogg*

      Yes! I’m so glad someone else commented on this. A £35k difference in my work is the difference between entry level salary and executive salary. To expect a £35k increase with a single promotion is astronomical and only something I imagine would happen in banking/tech where salaries are already extremely high?

      UK salaries are so flat compared to what you can earn in the US
      25th Percentile: ~£27,986
      50th Percentile (Median): ~£32,292
      75th Percentile: ~£42,148
      90th Percentile: ~£59,200

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        Some US numbers for comparison (IRS data from 2022):

        50th percentile: $50,339
        75th percentile: $99,857
        90th percentile: $178,611

        (Unfortunately, I couldn’t find the 25th percentile numbers, but this is good enough to illustrate that overall US salaries are way less flat than UK salaries.)

        Reply ↓
    9. doreen*

      I’m wondering the same , that’s something like $45K. Which seems sort of like the “market rate” is for a very different job with the same title – maybe a different industry or a larger organization.

      Reply ↓
      1. bamcheeks*

        It does make me wonder whether they were looking at data for “Head/Director of __” which includes people at 15-person companies managing 1-2 people on £35K and people at large organisations managing directorates of 20-70 people on £80k, and not having the context to realise that these are very different things. If LW is relatively early in their career, this is an genuinely easy mistake to make, and one I have seen new-ish graduates make more than once, especially if they’re relying on data and advice which is tailored to US audiences.

        And it’s the kind of thing that a good manager would calmly explain — but if their manager is CEO of their own small company, they don’t have to be a good manager, and they get to make frustratingly short-sighted decisions based on vibes!

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        1. Duckling*

          I’ve just re-read the letter and noticed that OP says *THEY* detailed what the new position would entail, including line management responsibilities… this is beginning to sound to me like a terrible misunderstanding where the CEO offered a ‘promotion’ with a particular title, OP excitedly researched what that title might reflect in other organisations, and came up with something the CEO had never intended to offer or imply.

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    10. Opaline*

      It might make sense if they’d been hired in as a low paid individual contributor (for US folks, full time minimum wage is about £22k) and they were being promoted up to management /senior leadership. £57-60k isn’t outrageous for that depending on the sector.

      But if that is what’s happened, it still makes the boss look shady as hell.

      Reply ↓
    11. Swiss Army Them*

      OP answered to a similar comment upthread and said that the boss offered her a £3k/year raise for a significant promotion. I get the sense that she was paid adequately if not slightly underpaid for her current role, but the promotion was a significant jump, and the salary+3k number was 35k below market rates

      Reply ↓
      1. Susannah*

        Ah. Well, $3K pounds a year for a significant promotion (or really, almost nay promotion) is pretty insulting.

        Reply ↓
        1. bamcheeks*

          I’m sure it would be some areas, but it would be absolutely normal in many! Most public sector grades are about £10-12k ranges, with a £1-2k increment each year and some overlap. So if you’ve been in a Grade 6 (£30-40k) role for three years and you’re on spine point which equates to £36k, and you get promoted to Grade 7 (£35-45), you’d probably go onto a spine point around £37k. Many private sector jobs will have a similar process. I have done something similar when I went from 6-7 and from 7-8, and that’s really completely normal and not at all insulting.

          LW’s boss handled this badly, but I don’t think a £3k raise is by definition insulting.

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          1. Other Alice*

            It really depends on the sector. In mine, I don’t really want to be promoted to a higher role because the headache of managing a team is not worth it, but managers are paid a lot more than individual contributers. I’m willing to trust that LW did their research as this kind of speculation without knowing their field is not really helpful.

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            1. Sloanicota*

              Yeah OP says elsewhere that she can see the salaries at her own company and would be significantly out of step with the other people at her new senior level (which is a department head) so I’m willing to go with them that they know what’s fair.

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          2. Ellis Bell*

            I don’t think OP is on spine points or the equivalent based on the updates in the comments. Commenter Sasha guessed what the rough increases should have been, (much higher jumps than £3k, even us teachers expect more when jumping up a level in managerial responsibility) and Lilly (OP) agreed with her assessment.

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            1. bamcheeks*

              Yeah, I wasn’t commenting on OP’s situation directly so much as the idea that a £3k rise for any promotion would be insulting!

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    12. M2*

      This. As someone who lived and worked in London years ago salaries are less. £35k is a huge jump in the UK and unless you are considerable underpaid I question whether the role really pays that much more. Where did you get your information on salary in similar roles? I have had people come to me and say “well on Glassdoor it says it pays X” when that is not true and the role pays $20k less. People think I am lying! The salaries at more established/larger companies might be larger than yours. Honestly unless you’re in big-law, tech or finance I can’t see that big of a jump.

      I think how CEO handled it was wrong. But did you come in asking for that #? Was the role really leadership or just a step up?

      I don’t think the CEO handled it correctly, but I have been on the other side where I told the person interviewing (not internal) salary was X max, and role was A,B,C. Then they come back asking for way more $, talking about leadership responsibility, travel, etc, things that were covered but not included. I will go back and say actually like I stated 2 other times this is the role if you aren’t interested in the terms please let me know so I can go to the next candidate. I have pulled an offer before on someone who would not let up and who I realized during this stage that would not be a good fit. I was concerned they would cause more work, would not listen to management, and think they knew best. I did it respectfully and do not regret doing it.

      I would look elsewhere but use this as a learning experience and try to find a company/manager that is a better fit.

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    13. Scott*

      I earn 35k in the UK as a Civil Servant. I don’t know anyone in my peer group who would be able to suggest a year’s salary as their negotiation figure. I am definitely in the wrong job!

      Reply ↓
  16. Fluffy Fish*

    OP – it sounds like the lesson is that you learned someplace you thought was a good place to work is actually led by and unreasonable, egotist who is punitive when his authority is questioned.

    You deserve better. I’m sorry.

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  17. tjames*

    I worked for a newspaper editor who would do this–if you tried negotiating a salary, he pulled the promotion. And if you were a new hire who tried to negotiate a starting salary, he pulled the job offer. His reasoning was that journalism was a calling and a public service, it wasn’t about money, and that trying to get more money showed that your priorities were in the wrong place. He also said it showed you would be difficult to manage. Meanwhile, the guy who owned the paper was building his second house, this one on the Atlantic coast. This was a long time ago–decades–before the internet put newspapers into their death spiral. The owner’s heirs had to sell the house on the Atlantic.

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    1. datamuse*

      Oh god, vocational awe. (Credit for the term to Fobazi Ettarh. She was talking about libraries but it applies to a lot of fields, and if you work in one of them you probably recognize it immediately.)

      Reply ↓
      1. pally*

        Yes! Because vocational awe goes a long way towards paying for rent, utilities, food, transportation, medical expenses, and so on.

        Reply ↓
      2. Chirpy*

        Yeah…I recently saw a job listing for an organization I’d love to work with, but the pay was less than I currently make in retail, and also was *$10/hr less than a living wage for this city*.

        Landlords and grocery stores don’t give discounts for nonprofit workers.

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  18. Stuart Foote*

    The old-fashioned attitude of “the company will give you what you need, but maybe not what you want, and you should be grateful to work here” is out of step with modern attitudes and can feel extremely stifling (speaking as someone who has worked for that kind of company), as well as somewhat exploitative at times, but it is a lot better than the modern attitude of many companies of “we will resist giving raises as much as possible, will lay you off immediately to save on costs, but you still need to be grateful to work here and not ask for too much” is much, much worse.

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    1. Archi-detect*

      that was also more common in the days of a single breadwinner with a stay at home wife and 3-4 kids and even if the salary wasn’t what you wanted necessarily what you wanted, it was more comfortable that the salary of two people working that job is now

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  19. Dust Bunny*

    I think what happened was simply that your boss doesn’t want to pay you more. I bet you could have been the best-prepared, most polite employee in history and he still would have bridled, because he was betting on getting more work out of you on the cheap.

    I think the lesson here is that some bosses are a-holes and it’s time to brush up your resume and start looking.

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  21. mpe1*

    It’s a small UK company, and you’ve only been there eight months. They are *not* going to give you a massive pay rise. They almost certainly weren’t going to actually promote you either, just change your title to a slightly more senior-sounding one. This is normal for the UK.

    Reply ↓
    1. Sloanicota*

      That is an interesting perspective, and I did miss in my first read-through that it was only an 8 month tenure … I know it’s been written here before that you shouldn’t ask for a raise/promotion before the first year (although it sounds like OP didn’t ask for this). If it really was just Coordinator/Senior Coordinator promotion, and they were waaaay out of step on salary, perhaps I can see why it went off the rails … although the manager should have been able to explain that more calmly, particularly if OP is fairly new to the field/workforce.

      Reply ↓
      1. londonedit*

        I also missed that they’d only been there eight months, and I agree. In my UK experience, if you accept a job offer with a particular title and salary, you don’t really have any standing to negotiate that until you’ve been there at least a year. It sounds like the OP was being strung along somewhat with the ‘don’t worry, we’re going to give you a promotion’, which perhaps was a tactic the company used initially to get them to sign the contract at a lower position/salary. Which does indeed suck, if they never really had any intention of honouring that. But nevertheless, trying to negotiate a giant pay rise after only eight months in the job isn’t really going to go down well.

        Reply ↓
        1. Sloanicota*

          Some information I wish I had was, how senior is OP in their career at this point, and do they have a sense of what other people in the org are being paid? Maybe they were truly out of step, which changes my answers elsewhere (but the boss should still have been able to calmly explain this).

          Reply ↓
        2. Dawn*

          No but it changes the equation some if they’re giving you a different title with additional job duties, doesn’t it?

          Reply ↓
          1. mpe1*

            If I’m reading correctly, OP simply *told* the CEO that the title usually implies additional responsibilities. Given that this is a small UK company (which could mean fewer than 50 employees) and that OP is being managed by the CEO in person, there is absolutely no reason to suppose there are any such responsibilities at all.

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            1. Celeste*

              I wondered about that too because after the OP “detailed what the new position would entail,” the manager said that it was, “just a change of title” and said she was “already doing the job.” So I wonder if there was a fundamental misunderstanding about what the new role would be.

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              1. Mamma Mia!*

                Interesting, sounds like there could potentially just be a massive miscommunication that goes a bit deeper than what we see in the letter. Agree with Alison that the boss should’ve explained it, in any case. I asked for a raise when I was still fairly new to employment in general, let alone this particular job — The response was, “We typically don’t give raises until after the one-year mark.” That was all I needed to hear. No hard feelings on any side, no shame, no misunderstanding.

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              2. coffee*

                If that were the case, though, the manager mishandled it by a) not explaining what the position would actually entail, and b) withdrawing the title change and salary increase *for work she’s already doing*, which is a disproportionate punishment for something that could be sorted by having a simple conversation.

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  22. mcm*

    ooh, I would be very interested in an update when you do have that conversation, OP! Hard to figure out what went on here/what the manager is thinking!

    Reply ↓
  23. Baunilha*

    Yeah, your manager sucks and everything else Alison said.
    Also, I understand that promotions often pay less than external hires, but £35K is a lot of money! It seems like too much of a difference, and it makes me side eye your employer, because it looks like they’re just trying to underpay you. I can assure that they would’ve offered that amount (or at least a closer amount) to a new hire.

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    1. Nanny Ogg*

      I dunno I’d be interested to see how where the OP is in their career, to me this letter seems like someone early in their career who saw ‘X title would result in Y pay’ but doesn’t understand the context of working in a small UK company.

      £35k is above the average take home salary for one person, to expect that much of a pay bump with a single promotion 8 months in to a job makes me think they misread the situation somewhere.

      I do think the boss has let them down by not explicitly discussing what happened though.

      Reply ↓
  24. Sparkles McFadden*

    I am sorry this happened to you. Your boss truly does suck.

    In my experience, this is dishearteningly common (especially for women, but this happens to men too). I worked for the same company for almost my entire career, but I changed jobs every four or five years. This was for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was the opportunity to negotiate for salary. I had two promotions offered and then pulled when I tried to negotiate for my new salary. One situation was just as the LW described. In the other situation, the boss said this: “We’d have to see how you do in the new job before we’d offer you a raise. Maybe we could give you some more money in six months if you do well.” I laughed before I could stop myself, and then transferred to another department about a month later. (A move that boss tried very hard to block because that’s what bosses like this do.)

    So, yes, have a blunt conversation with the boss. This may be unpleasant, but it will clarify the situation for you. I’m sure others have already said this but keep your resume up to date and start looking around. It’s entirely possible you can stay and happily work in a job you love, but someone like your boss may hold a grudge.

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  25. Abogado Avocado*

    LW, your boss is way off base. It is normal to expect a salary increase with a promotion and it is a natural time to discuss how much that salary increase should be. A manager who pulls a promotion because an employee had the audacity to discuss improving the proffered increase based on the employee’s performance and industry standards is an ass and not anyone you want as a boss. Get your resume on the street so you can leave this place. No matter how much you like it, your future is best stewarded by you and not this jerk.

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  26. SnickersKat*

    I have a similar story from a prior job. I purposely took a lower level job when switching to this company, but had 7 years of management experience from prior jobs (this is important).

    Company offered to give me the *opportunity* to learn how to manage people. I was to go from hourly to salary (hourly was a huge perk with the original lower level job because I wanted better work life balance) and was *promised* by the guy who regularly worked nights and weekends all the time that I would only have to work 40 hours a week. Sure, buddy.

    How much did they offer to go salary with people under me? $3k. That put me way below my prior management salary and would have me working way more than 40hrs a week. I asked for $15k (and was willing to settle for 10k, even knowing that 15k was below market rate). They threatened me with getting laid off or taking the meager raise. I took the severance. *shocked Pikachu face* Best decision I ever made!

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      1. SnickersKat*

        Officially I couldn’t stay in my old position because they were taking all of my duties and rolling it into this new manager position. I was willing to stay in the old position (at least until I found a new job, after this nonsense) but nope! The look on the VP when she knew I would take the job because I had no choice, and then I asked how much severance was, was absolutely priceless.

        I was given 3 months to transition out of the company and teach someone else my (very technical and very regulated) job. What actually happened is I read the news, goofed around on my phone, and almost daily asked my boss who I was supposed to train since they hadn’t given me anyone at all. 4 days before leaving I was handed one of the least competent people to try and teach them 10 years of regulatory knowledge for only 2 hours each of those 4 days. Yeah.

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    2. Bird names*

      Alright, that’s impressive, impressively bad on their end and great on yours for calling their bluff.

      Reply ↓
  27. librarian*

    Wow. I would be absolutely crushed if this happened to me too! I’m sorry, LW. Definitely start looking at other options, because this is not the way any company should operate. He wanted you to be so grateful for the promotion that you would just take whatever they would give you! So antiquated.

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  28. Lab Boss*

    “You’re already doing the work” is such a cop-out too. Oh, really? So the work I’ve already been doing matches what’s expected of a Senior Llama groomer, and I’m currently only a regular Llama groomer? Then it sounds like I already have experience as an acting Senior Llama Groomer and you’d best be paying me *more* than the minimum, since I’m so experienced with the work.

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    1. Sloanicota*

      I’ve been reading the comments and wondering if OP misunderstood how big a change this was – like if you’re just promoted from Coordinator to Senior Coordinator after six months or something – and that’s what the boss was trying to articulate with that phrase … but it really sounds like that’s not the case since I *think* OP is saying with phrases like “line management responsibilities” and “line management responsibilities” that they would move into a significantly different position, maybe going from no direct reports to managing someone else. But I’m not positive?

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    2. Lurker*

      If OP has been doing work for the promotion level job and is now not getting the promotion they need to stop doing these tasks and do the tasks at their level.

      Reply ↓
  29. Mrs CF HR*

    as you are in the UK go and speak to your HR team. They will know the salary bands for the role and can also advise that what your boss has done may constitute grounds for constructive dismissal under UK employment law

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      1. Duckling*

        Do salary bands apply for private sector salaries? I’ve only come across them in public sector, and not small companies.

        Reply ↓
        1. Different Name This Time*

          At least in North America, it’s pretty common for large private sector companies to have salary bands, but they’re not that unusual at smaller companies with dedicated HR.

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  30. Just a Manager*

    I had to change the culture at my current job for internal promotions. It was normal to do a 5% raise. Luckily, we have published salary ranges for the different grades showing 80% of midpoint, midpoint, and 120% of midpoint. I was able to point out that if we hired from outside, it would be normal to offer 90% of the midpoint. Using that, I’ve promoted people on my team and ensured they received a decent raise.

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  31. L*

    I’m wondering if there was just a wild mismatch with how you were envisioning the role. E.g. you mentioned “contributing to the leadership team” but this wasn’t a leadership role whatsoever. And sometimes job titles are wildly inconsistent between companies and can be broad. Like a “vice president” can be the highest of senior management at one place and an experienced individual contributor elsewhere. So it doesn’t seem impossible to me that this is what happened.

    That said, undoing your promotion without further explanation is weird.

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  33. Lurker*

    Also if you are “already doing the work” for the promoted job – STOP IMMEDIATELY. Only do the tasks related to the job that you are being paid for. Dust off your resume, list the tasks and skills for what you were doing prior to this conversation and move on to greener pastures.

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  34. Pizza Rat*

    and this is why people change organizations so they can get a respectable salary increase.

    I’m sorry this happened and I agree that it’s time to move on. You can’t trust this boss to do right by you.

    Reply ↓
  35. Andromeda*

    It’s possible that LW misunderstood the scope of the role change.

    Even so, manager outright pulling the promotion is wild and screams spiteful to me, because it’s so inconsistent with what he was saying before (“already doing the work”, downplaying the role in general) and how he seems to handle situations like these. If LW were so out of touch that they thought, for example, a mid-level role was actually a senior leadership role, that to me suggests “serious conversation about professional norms and expectations” territory. We’ve had some letters here from managers baffled by employees wanting massive raises when performance didn’t merit them, for example.

    But… that the ONLY consequence to the LW here has been “nope, you don’t get that promotion you wanted after all”, when the manager is willing to be this punitive, is really weird. I’d love to know if “didn’t like this conversation” was a direct quote, because I think that says a lot.

    LW, on top of seeking a new job, I’d also make sure to do some CYA on the stuff you’re working on now. Overcommunicate about what you’re working on and its impact, document any iffy interactions with your boss, save emails and/or Slack messages, get instructions or confirmations of next steps emailed or Slacked to you.

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    1. Lilly*

      You absolutely nailed it—pulling the promotion like that does feel spiteful and completely inconsistent with what he was saying before. One minute, I’m “already doing the work,” the next, I dare to ask reasonable questions, and suddenly the offer is off the table? That shift is very telling.

      And no, I didn’t misunderstand the scope of the role. If anything, I went into it with an open mind, asking for clarity to make sure I understood exactly what was expected of me. The vagueness and reluctance to define the role properly were red flags from the start.

      As for the “didn’t like this conversation” bit—yes this is exactly what I was told.

      Great advice on covering myself—I’m already doing that. I’ve been documenting everything, keeping records, and making sure there’s a clear paper trail for my work. If this situation has taught me anything, it’s to be prepared. My CV is out there, and I’m ready to land somewhere that actually values transparency and leadership, rather than just performing it.

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      1. Celeste*

        Was it ever made clear what the new role was supposed to involve? Did you ever get clarity on whether you were, “already doing the job” or whether it came with new responsibilities?

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  37. doreen*

    I’m wondering the same , that’s something like $45K. Which seems sort of like the “market rate” is for a very different job with the same title – maybe a different industry or a larger organization.

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  38. Former Retail Lifer*

    I know I’ve mentioned this before, but I’ve been absolutely terrified to negotiate salary after a job offer was pulled from me around 20 years ago over 50 cents. I finally did on this last job and it worked out, but I have literally accepted the first offer (or declined entirely) for every position since that happened. However, it never occurred to me that this could happen with an internal position. New fear unlocked!

    OP, your boss is unreasonable.

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  39. Susannah*

    Wow. As Alison said, none of us was there, so we don’t know the tone, etc. But I think the problem here is much bigger than the pulled promotion. It sounds like management thought they could get LW at a bargain (and likely less than they’d have to pay someone from the outside), and is now mad that LW figured that out.
    It would have been one thing to say, sorry, this is what we’ve budgeted, etc. But to come back with, it’s just a title change, you’re already doing the work, so you don’t deserve (much) more? And then to actually pull the promotion? How petulant is that?
    It’s not something to quit in a huff over – but I’d start looking and get outta there. It’s a dead end job know (and maybe always was).

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  40. MigraineMonth*

    Hey OP, this struck a bit of a chord with me, so I thought I’d share my experience with my own boss/CEO. He was a really nice man putting his own money into a his start-up dream, so I agreed to contract with him for far less than the actual labor was worth (in part because I was underemployed and wanted the experience, in part because I didn’t understand the difference between contracting and employment). He was really sweet, enthusiastic and appreciative of all the work the team was doing.

    Then I ran out of hours in my contract and told him he’d need to renew if he wanted me to continue, and he turned on a dime. He told me I was greedy and selfish. He said that I was doing far less and poorer quality work than the rest of the team but getting paid more. Then he threatened to *sue me for breach of contract* if I didn’t continue working for him for free. Eventually he renewed the contract, but all the while he acted as if I were a thief. I was shocked and thought I must have done something wrong to make this great guy turn into an asshole.

    Turns out that no, he was an asshole all along. When I gave my teammates the heads-up that apparently he was underpaying them even more than me, I found out that they weren’t getting paid at all. Their contracts had run out months ago and when he’d refused to renew, they’d just… kept working for free. The CEO got increasingly abusive about the fact that none of us were loyal to the company (that we had zero stake in, because he hadn’t offered options) and weren’t making progress (because he kept changing what he wanted us to build). He got into a blow-up fight with his partner, the only person in the tech start-up’s leadership who had any technical knowledge. When I left a month later for grad school, everyone else in the “company” had already quit.

    At the time, having my boss tell me my work was bad was pretty devastating. Looking back a decade later, I can see that he was just a sad little man who didn’t know anything about business, leadership or the area he was trying to innovate/disrupt, and who certainly had no insight into the quality of my work.

    LW, don’t let your a-hole CEO boss shake your confidence.

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  41. Parenthesis Guy*

    The more I look at your letter, the more I wonder whether you and your boss are on the same page. You are mentioning how you’re now going to be part of the leadership team and how your responsibilities were going to change. Your boss was telling you that your responsibilities aren’t changing at all, and you’re just getting a new title to adequately describe your work. There’s a disconnect.

    Based on the disconnect, I can understand why you think you’re being underpaid by 35k pounds(!!!) and your manager is just confused. I can also why, if your manager is in fact correct, that they might be thrown by this discussion. If they think they’re giving you a one-rank promotion and you don’t understand this, then you very well may have asked for things that were unreasonable and put your professional judgement in question.

    Going forward, you’ll have to see what your role ends up being. If it’s similar to what you’re doing now, then it’s probably safe to say you misinterpreted something. If you’re doing leadership work, then it’s safe to say it’s about the money.

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  42. e271828*

    That huge gap between the offered salary and the market rate is reason all by itself to look for a new job. Especially if management’s position is that you’re already doing the job for even less.

    Reply ↓
  43. 2 Cents*

    OP, I’m so sorry this happened to you. I also know many people who’ve left after being promoted because companies just don’t pay market rates when promoting internally, which makes no sense, even in tight job markets. The person gets the promotion, and since they’ve most likely been doing the higher-order work for a bit, already has results to show on a resume. Then they leave for more $$. Can’t say I blame them!

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  44. tina turner*

    Yes, start looking at other jobs.
    They may have been “inflating” the “promotion” beyond what they actually planned it to be, just to lowball your raise.
    They may know they “enhanced the description.” Cause they’ve GOT YOU, you work there. You’re not applying to work there and could turn down the offer.

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  46. Another Kristin*

    My organization (headcount >10,000, heavily bureaucratic, partially unionized) organizes positions into “pay bands” with a pretty wide range. When you get promoted, you go either to the same position in the new pay band (i.e., if you got 70% of the maximum of Band 4, you get 70% of the maximum of Band 5) OR the bottom of the new pay band, depending on where your starting pay was. You cannot negotiate and trying to do so could very well get your offer pulled, because it’s so far outside the norm. This policy has absolutely discouraged me from applying for a promotion I’m qualified for, one that would have been a good career move for me, because it would a lot more stressful for an annual raise under $5K.

    I imagine large organizations do this to avoid nepotism/corruption – i.e., a manager promotes his nephew and gives him the top of the pay band, you get promoted with a huge raise but have to kick 10% of said raise back to your boss, stuff like that. It still sucks when you have to weigh advancing your career with being adequately compensated.

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  47. Clementine*

    I think we need up to date advice on how to negotiate salaries, both when accepting a job offer and when getting a promotion, and people need to know there is a substantial risk involved. I’ve read way too many cases of people losing out completely when they really needed the job.

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  48. 653-CXK*

    Your manager is a prat (using UK English!) and is not going to change. He promotes you and decides that raising your salary is treason, and that you should work those extra duties gratis, not for the correct rate of £35K more?

    Dust off your resume and leave this place.

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  49. Susie QQ*

    I hate it when people like this manager ruin things like “the worst they can say is no” and “if you never ask, you’ll never know.”

    It’s not quite the same situation, but back when Covid hit and everybody had to WFH, my work gave everyone a WFH stipend of $200. I found a $200 office chair that I liked, submitted it, and got it approved. Then after speaking with some people in the industry, I decided that I really needed to invest in a quality chair, mostly for health issues. Not that it matters, but I wasn’t being frivolous about wanting a tricked out chair with bells and whistles. I just wanted something sturdy and ergonomic that I could sit in 8 hours a day without developing back problems. I had, to that point, been using a folding chair. Because, like a lot of other people, WFH came unexpectedly and I wasn’t prepared for it.

    I found a $500 chair that I liked better and went to my manager and asked if the company would put in $200 for it, and I would cover the rest. I was not asking for special favors or exceptions to be made; from a financial standpoint it was exactly the same.

    He said he would talk about it with the company and get back to me. Well, he got back to me. The answer was no. AND they were rescinding their approval for the initial chair I submitted. So… basically I didn’t get a stipend at all. When I pressed my manager on why on earth this would be the decision, he got really tight-lipped. Up until that point he had always had my back, but that decision was so demoralizing. I never got over it. I still don’t understand where it came from, unless they thought I was trying to take advantage of them and wanted to respond with pettiness.

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  50. SparkyMcDragon*

    Yeah I’m going to go out on a limb and disagree with Alison here. You’ve only been at this company for 8 months and you’re trying to negotiate the equivalent of USD $45k raise in a small company? That’s a big enough swing that if the promotion includes any responsibilities for financial management of the business or line management of other people, I would consider rescinding the offer. It’s incredibly unlikely that in 8 month you demonstrated a work ethic so amazing they agreed to jump you what would be between 4 and 9 salary bands in a normal organization. I think your boss could have been clearer about his concerns, but I think trying to negotiate that large a jump on a promotion offer was a real big swing that shows a lack of judgement and an understanding of basic business realities.

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    1. Former Retail Lifer*

      I think you might be right. That’s a huge raise…I’m wondering if the title that the OP would be getting might vary from company to company and the responsibilities aren’t quite what they think they are.

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    2. Esmae*

      OP didn’t say she asked for a £35K raise. She said she would’ve been making £35K below market value in the new position, and she asked her boss if there was room for negotiation on her raise. It doesn’t actually say anywhere how much she was offered or how much she asked for, just that if she’d accepted the original offer she would’ve been making significantly less than market value for the position.

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      1. Academic Physics*

        Agreed, and if we look for a comment “Lilly*” replied to above it would be more like she’s currently underpaid, and this promotion would make her even more underpaid.

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    3. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Still doesn’t justify yanking the promotion. The manager should just have used his words and explained. instead of having ahissy fit

      Reply ↓
  51. tired beau*

    Just wanted to say to the LW— this really sucks and you deserve a more supportive team behind you. I’m sorry they decided to just pull the plug on you.

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  52. WillowSunstar*

    As a person who is job seeking, this one worries me because it’s the second posting within a couple of months where someone was denied a job because they dared negotiate. I read Reddit in my spare time and I know the job market is bad. But to pull something because of a negotiation, unless the offer outright said no negotiations allowed, seems disingenous.

    (My last day was a couple of weeks ago, so I’ll probably take the first non-terrible offer I get.)

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  53. KB*

    A) Working while female
    B) Offering “prestige” rather than cash for more work

    Only solution: act your wage and find a new job

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    1. Hroethvitnir*

      The amount of people assuming “offer was £35 under market” means “LW asked for that amount” is pretty frustrating.

      I am now also curious about more details given the numbers involved, but regardless, the CEO withdrawing the offer and sulking about it (see comments) makes it pretty obvious who’s more of a problem here.

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      2. Lilly*

        thank you for this comment! maybe what I wrote was misleading but I am not completely crazy asking for 35K more! I meant that the offering was way below benchmarks and in the end I just asked for the possibility to talk about it!

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  54. pally*

    I thought promotions were earned. Hence not something that is revoked over a conversation that the boss may not have liked.

    What’s next down the line? I would imagine no further promotions given that the OP ‘acted as they shouldn’t’.

    At least the OP knows what this boss is made of. 100% cowpie.

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  55. nozenfordaddy*

    I would be asking if I am already doing the job, what tasks that are not part of the role I am now staying in rather than the one I am ‘technically doing’ would be getting done by someone else/whoever they promote. Cause If I don’t have the job then I am not doing the job.

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  56. Coverage Associate*

    I’m a little at a loss without percentages. 35k pounds is close to median salary for the UK. What was OP’s current pay and what was the offered increase? We have seen instances where external applicants ask for too much more, so much that the ask suggests a different understanding of the role compared to the offer.

    For US people for comparison, during my last job search in 2023, I think I received offers between $175,000 and $195,000 and was making between $165,000 and $170,000. Money was not the reason for the job search.

    So my estimate is OP asked for a lot more than the offer both absolutely in terms of UK salaries and relative to the offer.

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    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      she agreed to someone’s rough figures upstream; didn’t seem a big ask . Anyway, a manager should explain if his firm won’t pay that high for the job, instead of yanking the promotion in a fit of pique.

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  58. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    One good thing for the OP: being in the UK, the manager can’t fire her; he just has to fume away at the audacity of a minion not taking what she’s given.
    So she can job hunt – for somewhere paying market rate – while being employed.

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  59. Some Internet Rando*

    Hope you get out of there. Your boss is *punishing* you for attempting to negotiate your worth rather than being grateful for what he thinks you are entitled to receive. I wouldnt doubt that gender is playing a role, but either way, he showed you who he is.

    I predict he will be pikachu shocked when you announce you are leaving.

    please send an update.

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  61. Gudrid The Well-Traveled*

    We’re supposed to accept a letter writer’s descriptions as true, and there are 3 commenting rules that can be condensed down to “believe the OP”. Considering the situation described, I find it interesting that the OP has been (accurately) perceived as a woman with a male boss and that a significant number of the comments question whether the OP really understood the promotion offered, with some going as far as to wonder if she understands how raises work. The rest of the comments offer understanding or similar stories. It just fits the stereotype and many of our lived experiences so well.

    Reply ↓

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