Ask a Manager

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My low-performing employee can’t take feedback

I have an employee who has been with our organization for six months. I’ve noticed that she begins crying whenever anyone points out an error, or if someone informs me or her trainer of a mistake she made, she gets offended because they aren’t coming to her directly. If a coworker is joking with someone else (they are not racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. jokes) or if someone is supposedly “short” with someone else, she gets offended, even if the recipient was not offended. I have also noticed she is only producing one-third of what the next lowest person is producing. When I asked what she needed from me to help with her production, she began crying and saying I pick on her. She has also accused me of favoritism because she is never given special projects to do, but everyone else gets the good projects. (I have given her projects, which are either not finished in a timely manner or she will not make any decision for herself, but will ask me or others every step of the way.) I have explained this to her, to no avail.

I talked to her old boss, who I am friends with, and she stated she was always a very sensitive person and very slow on the job causing their department to backlog, but didn’t mention it when I checked her reference because she didn’t want to speak ill of her because she is a kind person. They always treated her with kid gloves, not allowing anyone to kid around or just having others fix her errors. While my personal side knows she really needs her job, my supervisor side doesn’t think it’s right to have everyone to walk on eggshells and not be themselves or not give constructive criticism because one employee is extremely thin skinned. How do I handle an employee like this?

Your primary job is to ensure work is done, not to coddle someone’s feelings. You need to give her clear and direct feedback on what needs to change, and that should include both her productivity level and her openness to feedback (because you can’t have someone on your team who is too sensitive to hear feedback and incorporate it into her work).

Productivity at one-third of your next lower performer (!) is a dire enough performance issue that it’s highly likely that this won’t work out, so you should get her on a formal improvement plan ASAP — give her a clear bar that she needs to meet (like X amount of work done accurately in X amount of time, over the next four weeks), spell out what must change, and clearly explain that if she doesn’t meet those benchmarks, you’ll need to let her go (because that is the solution when someone is performing so poorly and doesn’t improve after direct feedback). Frankly, you should also address the constant taking offense (saying something like, “we do joke around in our culture and, knowing that that’s not going to change, I need you to decide if that’s something you can comfortably live with”), but it sounds like she’s not going to be able to meet your performance standards anyway, so you might just address the performance piece of it rather than getting into the rest (on the assumption that that will end up being a quick and direct route to replacing her without getting into all the side issues).

2. Telling my coworkers that I eloped

My boyfriend and I are going on a vacation in a few weeks, and we decided a few days ago to elope while we are there. We have been talking about getting married for a while and we both would rather just have a stress-free ceremony while we are on vacation. We already told our friends and family and we plan to have a small celebration with them in my hometown in a few months.

However, I’m not sure how to go about telling my coworkers about our plans. I work in a small, all-female office that can honestly be very gossipy. I didn’t have a proposal with a ring, and I’m not someone who is interested in making a big deal about being engaged or having a wedding (hence why we are eloping). However, I am excited to be married and I would like to share that with my coworkers. I’m also planning to change my name and use the married name professionally. I’ve been working at my current job for about 4 months and I’m nervous to bring it up. I think my coworkers will be surprised and think it’s a little weird that we’re getting married quickly without a traditional engagement and wedding. Any advice for the best way to casually make the announcement?

Just be straightforward — “Xavier and I are planning to get married while we were there, so I’ll be Persephone Montblanc when I return.” (Or, if you don’t mention it until you’re back: “Xavier and I ended up getting married while we were there. I’m now Persephone Montblanc.”)

Who cares if they think it’s weird? You’re happy with your plans, and any expression of disapproval can be responded to with “We’re not big wedding people’ or “We’re really happy with the way with did it” or whatever, followed by a shrug and/or “wow” if they persist. The correct response to an announcement that you just got married is “congratulations,” not criticism — and I don’t think you’ll really get a ton of the latter after the fact. (It tends to be before you get married that people want to impose their beliefs about How One Should Wed; once the deed is done, they seem to lose interest — or move on to the state of your uterus.) Plus, you’ll probably find plenty of people who, having been through the headaches of planning a massive wedding, will fully understand and possibly even envy the way you’ve chosen to do it.

3. Can I ask for a sign-up bonus to be paid early?

After months of unemployment, I recently received a job offer for a position that I am very excited about. Included in the offer is a sign-on bonus that is to be paid with my first paycheck. However, the position does not start for a couple of months and I am currently in a rather tough financial situation. Is it appropriate to ask for the bonus upfront? If so, what is the most tactful way to do it? The position is at a nonprofit, so I understand that their budget is probably tight, but having the money immediately would be ideal.

I suppose you can ask, but I’d be prepared to hear “no.” It’s set up the way it’s set up for a reason — they want to make sure you actually show up and start working before they pay it out. What would you do for money if they told you no or if you hadn’t gotten this job at all? Whatever that answer is, that’s what I’d lean on now, if at all possible.

4. Starting a new job when I have an old client who might go into labor at any moment

I’m self-employed as a doula, but it’s not yet self-sustaining. So, I’m currently looking for a regular job in admin. The problem is this: I currently have a birth client who is due soon. Since my role is to attend her birth from start to finish, I go on call in a couple of weeks, which means when she calls, I answer and when she’s in labour, I go to her – right then.

If/when I get an interview, when and how do I tell them this? I list my business on my CV, and since most people don’t know what a doula is, I’m likely to get questions. Should I take it off my CV?

There’s no reason to take it off your resume. If she’s due in a couple of weeks, it’s pretty unlikely that you’ll have started a new job by then. (Even if you were offered one tomorrow, it would generally be a few weeks until you started.) However, if you do get offered a job before she’s delivered, just explain the situation — that you have a commitment to this one client, that you can’t precisely predict when that work will need to happen since it’s tied to when she goes into labor, and that you’d be glad to delay your start date until after the birth if they’d like you to.

5. Giving guidance to an intern who was just promoted to a full-time position

My unit just promoted a part-time student worker to a full-time job (different function) with more responsibility – let’s call it events manager. Our areas didn’t overlap much in her previous job, but they will now, and on a consistent basis. The person she’s replacing was good at her job, reliable, and is training her. We’re a pretty flat organization, but I am at a higher level than her. She’s a new grad and this is her first job in her desired field post-graduation. Is there anything I can or should do in terms of setting up a good working relationship with her? She doesn’t report to me, but I will be at 80% of the events she runs, often escorting VIP customers (this is how our jobs overlap). I’d like to have the same peace of mind as I did with her predecessor, namely that my needs for each event (which are always A, B, and C) will be met so those VIP customers stay happy. Should I talk to her about this in advance, or let her get a few events under her belt and see if there are any issues? I’ve never worked with anyone that made the transition from student worker or intern to full-time employee, and I want to be sure I’m setting the right expectations for her in her new role. I’d appreciate any advice you can offer on navigating this new work relationship.

Yes, talk to her! Not because she’s a former intern, but because she’s new to a job that you depend on. Walk her through what you’ll need from her and why, any pitfalls to watch out for, and make sure she understands the things that are important to you.

Today’s theme: directness.

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My new coworker keeps distracting me during training

I just started training for a new job last week and the training lasts for eight weeks. We’re a small group (less than 20), everyone is a great mix of personalities, yet I have a single reservation about my current circumstances. The person who sits next to me is overly chatty. Very friendly and nice person, but just is not able to restrain herself or seem to know when it’s appropriate to stop.

While I consider myself a very quick learner, I’m starting to hit some bumps in training and her talking is distracting. She also constantly asks me to check her work for her that she’s doing (I believe she thinks I know exactly what I’m doing for everything, and she isn’t showing confidence in her work), and often isn’t sure what she should be doing because she wasn’t fully paying attention to the next step. I often help her in this last respect, despite knowing that pointing her in the right direction is probably just encouraging her not to pay as much attention to the trainer. During a particularly difficult module today, she kept asking me what she should be doing, and I repeated a few times, “I don’t know what I’m doing,” while I was attempting reading the material over and over again. She got the message after the fourth time I said it, but I felt incredibly abrupt and rude by the last one, and I feel like I could handle this situation in a better way, especially since I do like this person and spend break time with her. I was considering speaking with the trainer to possibly move seats, but would only do so if I couldn’t figure out a way to speak with the coworker as I feel that would send the wrong message. In jobs past, I’ve often wanted to make and keep friends, but I rarely end up doing so and am hesitant as to what to say.

So far, I have tried saying things like, “Well, you know as much as I do when it comes to X,” but I don’t know what to say about the overall talking. I’m typically an extremely quiet person and not normally around such loquaciousness. Also, I think she’s starting to infringe upon my personal space a bit much. She leaned on my armrest a few times today to talk to someone over me, even though I was still leaning on it! What do you suggest?

Be direct! You’ve tried hinting and it’s not working, so it’s time to just come out and say it:
“Sorry, I can’t talk it over because I need to focus on what the trainer is saying.”
“I’m having trouble following Jane, so I need to stop talking with you.”
“Sorry! I need to follow what Jane is saying.”
“I’m getting distracted by talking and need to focus on the training.”

2. My new hire keeps cc’ing my manager on everything

I hired a team lead for my department, and now every single email she sends out she copies my manager! I can understand she is excited in this new role, but I feel a sense of disrespect when she copies my manager on emails regarding suggestions for my team that she has not discussed with me first. When she sends out these emails, she addresses my manager first. I don’t think that’s right. I feel like she is trying to show off. And she thinks some ideas have not already been discussed before she was hired, but they have been. She would know if these ideas had already been talked about if she would discuss them with me first rather than copying my manager and suggesting things that have already been suggested. Also when there’s bad news like a missed deadline, she will not add him to that email string. She leaves that up to me.

I’m trying to find the right way to approach this as I do not want to seem like I am being a micromanager. It’s really bothering me. Am I just being over sensitive and should I let her copy away?

You’re her manager, so when she’s behaving differently than you’d like, you need to let her know that — clearly, directly, and calmly. It’s perfectly reasonable to want her to follow a chain of command (and to keep your own manager from being bothered by ideas that have already been fielded in some way). That’s not micromanaging; that’s just adhering to a structure that exists for good reason.

Say something like this: “Let’s discuss things like this first before you loop Jane in. She and I both prefer to keep communications streamlined, and much of this will generally go through me first. Thank you.” You might also tell her what, if anything, it is good to cc your manager on, so that it’s clear that you’re not cutting off all communications in that direction.

If it continues after that, ask her directly why she’s continuing and tell her directly to stop.

3. How to keep a resident from hanging out in the property management office

I am a property manager for an apartment community, and we have a very busy office. Unfortunately, I understand that every apartment community has at least one “nosey” or “busy body” resident. I have been doomed with one pain in the side resident. She comes into the office and ALWAYS has a terrible attitude. She can clearly see that the phone is ringing off of the hook, the leasing consultants are helping ten people at one time, I am in my office always on a deadline to get something to my corporate office, and she is oblivious to all that is happening around her. She will walk back to my office without knocking, and she has been known to sit in the office for up to two hours.

On top of this, we have very strict confidentiality laws that we have to adhere to, so it is very difficult to have a phone or in person conversation with a resident or even with other staff members while she is in the office. I am in a tough spot, because she is a paying, long-term resident, but at the same time we can’t function properly with her in the office waiting to hear information that she can go back to her building and gossip about. How do I deal with this? I have tried to figure out a very nice way of telling her she can’t hang out in the office, but I can’t think of anything that isn’t going to be offensive (and she is very easily offended).

“Jane, we have confidentiality regulations that prevent us from discussing work matters when there are non-staff around, so we can’t have visitors without appointments in the office anymore.” And put up a sign, and have your manager enforce it.

4. Gross boss

My boss has this really gross habit of licking his fingers to turn a page. Actually, I wouldn’t even call it licking, but slurping. Any time I give him an application or something to review, he smothers his fingers with saliva to flip through it, which then leaves me with a stack of spit-soaked papers to try to work with. It doesn’t even matter how long or short the documents are – whether it’s 2 pages or 20, he still licks away. It’s very inconvenient (and disgusting) trying to figure out a way to navigate my paperwork without accidentally touching his spit spots. Sometimes he’ll even do this while he’s eating a meal, which just makes it all the more nauseating. Is there anything I can say or do in this situation? I don’t want to embarrass him, but this habit of his has got to go!

Eeeewww. That’s disgusting.

If you happen to have a good relationship with him and a dynamic where you can point stuff like this out, you could just be direct about it: “Do you realize that when you do that, it leaves the papers all wet?” Or even, with the right sort of relationship, “You appear to have licked all of these papers.”

But I have a feeling that if you had that kind of relationship, you would have already said something to him. If you don’t, there’s not really much you can do about it unless you’re willing to speak up and risk some awkwardness.

5. I asked about salary before an interview

I recently applied for a job at a small nonprofit. The salary wasn’t listed anywhere in the job posting, and while I know what the field generally pays, I didn’t have a way of finding out what this specific organization pays (there’s a lot of variation from agency to agency). I didn’t have any contacts to ask and this agency is too small to have a useful presence on Glassdoor, etc.

I was almost positive that my desired salary was significantly higher than their range, but since I was very interested in the job and didn’t know for sure, I applied. When they called to offer an interview, I told them over the phone, “I’m really interested in this position, but there wasn’t a salary posted. I have a feeling that my salary expectations are higher than what you’re able to pay for this role. If that’s the case, I wouldn’t want to waste your time with an interview. Are you able to disclose what your hiring range is?” She asked for my range instead, so I told her, and we were clearly way off. I politely declined an interview and wished her good luck in filling the position.

Is it okay to do what I did? Was it rude of me to apply when I was pretty sure, but not positive, that my desired salary was too high for them? It didn’t take me much time to apply and I doubt it took them much time to review my application. I would never have accepted an interview without making sure we were somewhat in line, but I didn’t want to miss out on a potentially great position.

That’s fine. You saved both of you some time, and if they have any sense, they appreciated you speaking up.

That said, the reason this was pretty safe is because you couched it in terms of “I have a feeling that my salary expectations are higher than what you’re able to pay for this role.” If you hadn’t been able to do that and just wanted to know what the salary was, it would have been a risky move, since many employers are (unreasonably) turned off by people asking about salary at early stages, because it’s apparently a shocking concept that you work for money.

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Listing time as a stay-at-home parent on your resume

I work for a nonprofit and am responsible for the first several stages of the hiring process. In my latest round of resumes review, I had several applicants account for a gap in their employment with the line “Stay at home parent” with the years associated. There was no cheesy list of job duties like scheduling, organizing, etc. It was just an account of that time not in the workplace.

How do you feel about that as a strategy? I am a program director and HR on the side, so I don’t have the strict business expectations others may have. I didn’t hate it. It struck me as odd at first and then helpful to know what those years were spent doing.

Ugh. I’m torn on this. On one hand, I agree with you that it’s helpful to just know without having to ask. On the other hand, it’s wired into me (as I suspect it is to many other people who hire) that it’s wildly inappropriate to have anything related to family on your resume. I think it’ll produce more negative reactions than it will positive ones for that reason.

2. Recruiter wants me to run jobs by her before I apply

I began working with a staffing agency in the past few weeks. I’m still at my current job until next week, but am moving mid-June and the recruiter has been talking to me about possible opportunities that would start in that timeframe. They do creative staffing–web, editing, graphic design.

I’ve read your previous posts on recruiters, and this lady seems like a respectable one, or at least one who won’t jerk me around. She’s been respectful of my time, has asked more probing questions about my experience to give her clients a better idea of my skills, and she mentioned that they get payment directly from the client, instead of a percentage of what my rates are, so the pay range I’d given was what I’d actually be paid. I haven’t done any interviews or jobs yet, obviously, but so far it’s been a good experience.

My question is this: She has mentioned that if I see a job I want to apply to, I should run it by her so she can see if she has a contact at the company. That makes sense, but I also suspect it’s a way for her to get more clients. Should I actually do this, or will it hurt my chances if it’s someone she hasn’t worked with and she approaches them out of the blue?

Yesterday, I had a former coworker contact me about a job his company is hiring for. I ran it by her as asked, but I’m worried that if she approaches them, they’d find it odd, especially since my coworker knows that I’d heard about the job directly and not through the agency.

Nooooo, don’t do that! If that company isn’t working with her already (and they’re probably not), then she’ll be using your interest as a way to try to win their business. If they’re not interested in working with a staffing firm (and they’re probably not, which is why they’re advertising on their own), then she may now “own” your candidacy and they won’t consider you because they don’t want to pay a staffing firm fee.

Don’t think of her like your agent; she doesn’t need to manage all contacts for you. She’s one part of your job search, but not the whole thing.

3. Explaining that I’m leaving my job because I want to work in a larger office

I’ve become more and more eager to leave a job that I’ve been at for less than a year, mostly because we are only a 4-person office. And often times, that means we are only a 2-person office with the directors out at meetings. I am a people person and need more human interaction.

How can I explain this in job applications and at interviews? Is it worth mentioning in a cover letter as explanation as to why I’m leaving after less than a year? Or is it better to come up with an alternative explanation – such as, I’m not doing the work I was hired for (also true).

I wouldn’t get into it in your cover letter. A cover letter is for explaining why you’d be great at the job you’re applying for, not for explaining what you don’t like about the job you’re leaving. But I’d definitely be prepared to talk about it in interviews. Saying that you’ve realized that you prefer to work in a larger organization is going to ring true to your interviewer as soon as you explain that you’re in a four-person company. That’s a much better explanation than getting into a discussion about how you’re not doing the work you were hired for. Stick to the company size issue and it’ll be an easy and clean explanation.

4. Using temp-to-perm for a management position.

My smallish (20-attorney) law firm is looking for a Deputy Office Administrator, and in addition to posting with ALA, we are using a search firm that we’ve used in the past for legal assistants, paralegals, and the like. The search firm suggested that once we find a candidate we like, that we do a “temp-to-perm” situation to ensure that they are the right fit. I know it’s common for legal assistants and paralegals, but for a management position? Is this common, or is the search firm looking to make more money? I would hate to lose a good candidate if they were (1) currently employed and wouldn’t accept temp-to-perm because of the risk of ending up worse off; or (2) simply offended by the prospect of temp-to-perm at their “level” of management.

Yeah, I would not do that for a management position. You’ll lose your best candidates.

5. Where does my volunteer work go on my resume?

I am a self-employed event and production manager. Aside from the work I do to get paid, I also volunteer a great deal with local nonprofits and city agencies. I use a semi-functional resume that summarizes my skills and then I follow up with my chronological list of jobs and highlights. Where do I put my volunteer work? Do I need to create a new section on my resume?

I have been with some organizations for over 5 years. It’s a pretty important part of my life and I volunteer around 150-200 hours per year. When I take a new position, it almost always comes as a surprise to people about the volunteer work that I do.

Yes, you can create a separate Volunteer Work or Community Involvement section.

But I want to urge you to re-think that semi-functional format. It’s generally irritating to hiring managers (because we want to see where and when you did the things you’re listing) and will look like you’re trying to hide something about your work history.

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Manager wants us constantly available on WhatsApp

When our new manager started, he demanded that everyone download WhatsApp on our phone (that each employee pays for). It’s an instant messaging app, and he uses it to contact employees rather than calling or emailing. He has continued to try and contact us this way on our days off, before and after shifts, and late at night. He swears at us, berates us, and complains about us over WhatsApp. Considering this is a part-time job I use to help pay for university, I find this inappropriate.

We’ve tried not responding, but unfortunately, he does not like this. He expects all of us to be reached through WhatsApp at any time that is convenient for him. I’m not sure how to approach him and let him know that his behavior is not professional, for fear of a backlash. Any suggestions as to how I can bring this up and hopefully make it stop?

Try saying this to him: “I am fully available during the shifts that I’m scheduled for, but when I’m not working, I have other commitments, such as school. I cannot always respond outside of my scheduled hours, because I’m often away from my phone, in class, or otherwise not available. You’ve made it clear you want to be able to reach us when we’re not on the clock, but I’m not able to do that. How do you want me to handle this?”

That said, this guy is an ass — for the constant attempts to reach part-time workers, for the berating and complaining, and for the way he wants to use this app. Even if you get him to stop this particular behavior, you’ll still be working for an ass, and it will surely come out in other ways.

(And by the way, you need to be paid for any time you spend responding to him outside of your regular work hours.)

2. Manager is interviewing candidates for a job I’m already doing

I am currently temp to hire in my position. My manager informed me that I would need to apply like everyone else and have an interview. He just interviewed me, recently along with three other people (all external). Is it normal for a manager to interview other candidates, knowing I have been in this position for 5 months? I have been looking elsewhere while waiting to hear feedback since I know nothing is really guaranteed. I feel like if he was interested in me he wouldn’t need to interview others, so I have been getting mixed feelings on what might happen.

Yes, it’s normal for your employer to interview other candidates even when you’re already been doing the job. Your manager has an obligation to ensure he’s hiring the best person for the job, not just the person who already happens to be on hand. (Employers don’t always do this, but they actually should — unless the temporary person is so clearly outstanding that they can reasonably assume they’re not likely to find a more competitive candidate.) In any case, it’s not personal, and it doesn’t mean he’s not interested in you as a candidate — it just means he’s doing due diligence before making a decision.

3. A candidate for the job I was fired from wants me to tell her about the culture there

I wrote in a month ago about my boss who was obsessed with treating me like a millennial. Ironically, shortly after that post, I was fired for “not being passionate about my job.” Ultimately, it wasn’t a good fit and we both knew it. Since leaving, my stress level has decreased substantially and I’ve realized it was an unhealthy working environment and terrible management. Even if I was offered the position again, I would never return to the organization.

I received a message recently on LinkedIn from someone who I am assuming is applying for my former job: “I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about your job and the organizational culture? I know it’s an odd question to ask but I am very interested to know.” During the initial interview process, I had asked the CEO a similar question. She hesitated at first but then explained that they have a “great culture, very relaxed office, flexible work environment.” All of which I eventually found to be untrue.

Should I respond? And if so, could you provide suggestions or ground rules to do it appropriately?

If you’re willing to take the relatively low risk of it getting back to your boss, I’d encourage you to talk with this person — since presumably we’d all appreciate people being candid with us in her situation. However, I’d do it over the phone — ask to give her a call rather than putting it in an email. There’s no reason to have a critical assessment of your old employer floating around out there in writing.

(For people wondering how this is different from the letter-writer last week who I advised not to meet with the person who had replaced her, that letter-writer was just recovering from job-related trauma, complete with panic attacks, and the person who had approached her was already working in the position, not wondering whether to take it.)

4. Explaining a change in job status during a job search

The wolves have been circling at my current job for a while: my job responsibilities have expanded greatly with little increase in pay, title, or (most importantly) training; there are credible rumors of impending layoffs; and I’ve received unsubtle hints from my new manager that he’s moving towards termination (asking if this job is still the right fit for me, etc.). The good news is I’ve been proactive in a job search and have had first interviews with a couple of prospects. The other good news is that I’m financially able (and emotionally prepared) to leave this job when and if the time comes.

My question relates to prospective jobs where I’m already mid-search: I’ve been presenting myself as currently employed (because I am) and responded to the “Why are you leaving CurrentJob?” question with a standard “excited for a new opportunity at JobProspect” answer; I remember your lessons about not bad-mouthing the old boss to the would-be new boss!

If, in between now and the next interview stage, I lose my current job, how do I bring that up with my prospects? Does that set off a huge red flag for hiring managers? Does the manner of my departure make a big difference here? It’s been indicated I can take a voluntary layoff and get a severance package and a decent reference out of it (…see “unsubtle hints” above), and I’m strongly considering taking it, but I’d hate to feel like I’m restarting my job search from scratch if I do.

You’re not obligated to proactively announce to employers who you’re already talking to that your job status has changed — although you are obligated not to be deceptive about it if they ask or it comes up naturally. (For instance, you can’t talk about your job in the present tense if you’re no longer there.) If it does come up, the fact that you’ll be able to explain you were laid off rather than fired is a very good thing in your favor.

5. Leaving dates off a resume

I’m helping my dad rework his resume and apply to positions after he was recently laid off — along with about 50 others — from his radiology job of 8 years. He is almost 66 years old.

His experience is so broad and all encompassing that I’ve decided to leave 4 positions on his resume. These are mostly in chronological order and within the last 15 years. However, because he’s also applying to oncology jobs, he’s left an oncology position on there that is quite old.

I’ve left all the dates off of these positions as it will be quite obvious that he is older. Instead of “2006-2014,” can I write “8 years?” I don’t want it to appear that he’s a job skipper, but I also don’t want to put dates.

Nooo, don’t do that. You really need to include dates for each job; it’s a big red flag if you don’t. It’s a neon sign screaming “trying to hide my age” — it actually draws more attention to it than if you just include the dates. (And the dates do matter. They show how recent the experience was and how long it lasted. It’s legitimately relevant.)