Ask a Manager

It’s a special “where are you now?” season at Ask a Manager and I’m running updates from people who had their letters here answered in the past. Here are three updates from past letter-writers.

1. Telling recruiters I wouldn’t move to a state that discriminates

I was able to use language very similar to what you provided and so far everyone’s been understanding. I do think it’s important that companies know these policies will actively drive lots of talented workers away. I haven’t gotten any leads yet but I’m not actively searching.

I also appreciated some of the tips about different places to consider relocating to. I’ll have to put a lot of thought into it over the coming months and reach out to friends/family/colleagues around the country. Hopefully I’ll be able to settle somewhere safe and comfortable for me, that these politicians are throughly repudiated so that everyone feels so no matter what city or state they live in.

2. My new boss says everything is “fun” — even data entry and illness

I was the OP who had the boss who referred to everything as fun! and was really the avatar of toxic positivity.

I ended up taking a new position in 2021 that helped me to reset my work norms and expectations. My coworkers and supervisor there were much more realistic in their approach to our work, and it was a much more supportive environment all around. It occurs to me that I really didn’t contextualize the field that I’m in for the commentariat – we’re heavy on compliance and policy-building, and it’s a field where sarcasm and dry humor are very much the norm. Sunny positivity is fairly unusual, even in the best of times, and the workplace culture is usually built around the camaraderie of doing a beloved, but difficult job as best we can despite organizational and regulatory hurdles.

That new role allowed me to grow quite a bit, and I recently changed again to start another job with a much higher title. I’m now making twice as much as I was in the original role I wrote in about, and doing much more complex work! I’m considered a “senior” voice in my field (in my 30s, which should say something about burnout), have won a national industry award, and have taken on leadership positions in our affiliated professional orgs.

My “fun” boss has had 100% turnover in my old department during this time, and it turns out that a lot of the problems I thought were out of her hands, were in fact things that she was actively making worse. She couldn’t have done anything about staff bleed in other departments, of course, but not getting information back? She asked them not to update us, but to send info to her directly and then never shared it. Never heard back from someone I’d worked closely with in the past? They reached out after I’d left to tell me that my supervisor had expressly forbidden them from speaking to me without copying her or looping her in.

I recently got a call from my old employer asking me to talk through the policies I’d put in place during my time there, and about how fun! supervisor had managed us. I was candid and shared that I had a number of concerns regarding their compliance with federal regulations based on questions I was receiving as a professional liaison from her remaining staff. (It’s a small industry.) They’ve offered to bring me on as a consultant to get them above board again, and it sounds like they’re working to remove fun! supervisor. They’re concerned that she might have misrepresented her familiarity with those regulations, and clients are apparently complaining.

I don’t know if any of this will come to pass, as we’re still in the midst of discussions about what I can do to assist, but I’m really excited about the prospect of helping my old employer. I truly love the people and clients there!

As some commenters (and you) noted, the fun! thing was really just the tip of the dysfunctional iceberg. I think some of what my supervisor was doing was trying to disguise how little she knew about what needed to be done, and was trying to upsell me on the boring parts of my job while she took on the more “exciting” and visible things. So much of what we do is difficult to parse for colleagues outside of the department, so if I wasn’t responding to questions or sitting on committees, she could pretend to be the only one with the answers and no one would question if the information she was sharing was accurate.

Thank you again for your guidance, and for all of the great information/advice you share on your site! I credit all of you resources with helping me to get where I am now. I especially took to heart your point about toxic workplaces warping your idea of what’s normal or acceptable. I had to unlearn a lot of stuff after I left that job.

Update to the update:

My “fun” boss ended up being demoted, and the compliance work was removed from her portfolio and sent to another department. She’s no longer permitted to manage or supervise, and she’s been physically relocated to an office closer to her new supervising unit. I will most likely be consulting later this year to reinstate policies I designed while working there. I’m a little annoyed these changes weren’t made until long after I’d left, but I’m happy where I’ve landed anyway!

3. My coworkers expect me to be devastated I didn’t get a promotion (#2 at the link)

I appreciated the advice to meet with my supervisor about the promotion and fully intended to do so. However, he went on vacation and postponed the meeting. Then, he never emailed to reschedule, even after I emailed a follow-up when he returned. I have a couple of other outstanding work emails to him that have gone unanswered, as well. He’s relatively new in the position and doesn’t seem to be on top of responses. I decided not to continue hounding him about it. Other members from the hiring committee have since confided in me that they reviewed the feedback and did not see any clear preferences for either me or the junior candidate who was given the promotion and that there were no negative comments on either of us. Some of the commentariat conjectured about my work demeanor.

I’ve been very successful in my role, winning a number of prestigious awards and performing above the company expectations in my annual work evaluations. I’m frequently tasked with higher level projects because of my organizational and communication skills. Plus, my co-workers come to me regularly for help navigating work issues within the company because of my knowledge of processes and relationships with people across the company. If anything, I am an over-communicator, which could be what is making the new supervisor hesitant, given his very different and more laid back style of working. The person promoted over me is very firm in his work-life balance, in ways that I am not, and sets boundaries much better than I do about timelines and projects. I like to get things finished and have a generally higher paced demeanor at work. I have come to accept that I may never know why I was passed over for a junior colleague. The good news is that my co-workers took the hint and stopped being as emotionally distraught around me after I responded as you suggested with “Mark is great.” After hearing from those on the committee that my co-workers did not express the preference that the supervisor claimed, I can understand better why they were unhappy with the outcome. Most just assumed that listing both of our positive qualities would still result in my being hired because of the difference in experience and seniority. I really love my company and don’t plan on leaving, but I have started looking to move laterally to another department, if a position arises. I’m also setting up some better boundaries for myself, so I am not inadvertently being expected to do work associated with the position that Mark took because of my seniority. There is a tendency for women in my field to take on much more work than men in the same positions to prove competency, and I’m super guilty of doing it myself. Thanks for all your advice here and elsewhere – I am an avid reader of your column!

It’s a special “where are you now?” season at Ask a Manager and I’m running updates from people who had their letters here answered in the past.

There will be more posts than usual this week, so keep checking back throughout the day.

Remember the letter-writer whose boss thought he was a stoner because he called out on 4/20 (#2 at the link)? Here’s the update.

I want to particularly thank you, as well as commenters Dark Macademia, Bagpuss, and Megan C for your collective advice. I spoke with my boss on the afternoon of the 25th, the day your answer was posted; I’m pleased to share that the resolution was quite harmonious. I approached my boss as you suggested, in the spirit of genuine concern that my reputation might not be what I want it to be, and he was quick to assure me that he did not genuinely think I might be a drug user.

My boss explained that he had originally made the joke in a lighthearted spirit, but later realized that if I really had been partaking, he might have been blowing off a symptom of serious stress on my part. As I mentioned in a comment, he’s relatively new to the team and to management in general, and we have been under tremendous pressure over the last few months. His later conversation with me he frankly admitted to be a rather awkward attempt to both offer a listening ear if I needed to share any unusual stressors with him as well as a warning that he did not want me to jeopardize my licensure by partaking in an illegal substance. Our industry is very tightly regulated and losing one’s professional certifications will obliterate an entire career.

I also carefully checked in with one of my coworkers, and she laughed and told me openly that I was considered the last person in the office to ever do anything even slightly untoward, and that my boss’s joke was seen as nothing more than that.

So I think the moral of the story is my boss and I are two well-meaning, awkward, and very square people with a tendency to make intoxicating mountains out of food poisoning molehills :)

It’s a special “where are you now?” season at Ask a Manager and I’m running updates from people who had their letters here answered in the past.

Remember the church that needed to fire someone who refused to talk to any members of their personnel committee and kept calling their attempts to meet “non-consensual” (#2 at the link)? Here’s the update.

We finally cornered our employee who was calling our meetings “non-consensual.” She showed up at the meeting absolutely furious and ready to fight. However, we were prepared, and kept the conversation to less than a minute– just “Here is your termination letter, please go collect your things.” We were all so worried she would attempt a nuisance lawsuit, or show up the next Sunday and cause a scene, or something, but she actually just disappeared.

We had a plan in place that if talking to her that day (Friday) didn’t work, we were going to overnight a termination letter to her, to arrive at her home Saturday. We were also going to post “guards” (i.e., church members) at the doors on Sunday morning to intercept her before she came into the building … but thankfully, it didn’t come to that.

As a final act of pettiness, though, she sent a text message to one of the church members, who shared it with me. It said, “I’ll miss you; I’ve really enjoyed working with the children! Especially–” and then she listed the names of every child in the church’s program, except my child. Classy.

It’s a special “where are you now?” season at Ask a Manager and I’m running updates from people who had their letters here answered in the past.

There will be more posts than usual this week, so keep checking back throughout the day.

Remember the letter-writer who resented her employee for being richer and more qualified than her? Here’s the update.

Thank you for the reality check needed. I want to be a good manager, I want to be able to make this bakery a good place to work, and a successful business. The owner has been talking about retiring in the next few years, and I would like to be able to buy my bakery and succeed. And I can’t let my insecurities hold me back. It also was a sign that I needed to think about my mental health, and what I actually want for my life. I have very much been in survival mode since I was fifteen.

Jane no longer works at the bakery; her company bought another big company and she was called back to lead her new department, she has also become a senior director now. Before she left, Jane and I talked about the future. She suggested that potentially there were bigger opportunities if I went back and finished high school (I had to drop out when I got pregnant), but also told me about some bookkeeping certifications I could get that would be recognized anywhere nationally, that do not need a high school diploma. It’s still 2,000$, but that’s something I had never thought about.

Something that I hadn’t put in the letter was that my husband is learning to program, and when Jane found out about that, she asked to see what he had built. It impressed her a lot and she had advised my husband to apply to jobs in her company and use her name. He got to the second round, but was eventually unable to be hired because neither of us completed high school, and they couldn’t waive that requirement.

However, it has made my husband go back to night school, and Jane and her husband have been very helpful in finding resources for programing bootcamps, and networking opportunities for my husband. She even managed to get my kid into her company’s free virtual private coding summer camp so my daughter can get a heads up in coding, and see if she likes it.

Things are better. Helped a lot because Jane went back to her real job, and I had to deal with my insecurity.

It’s a special “where are you now?” season at Ask a Manager and I’m running updates from people who had their letters here answered in the past.

Remember the letter-writer wondering if she needed to give up an impressive business contact who was hitting on her? Here’s the update.

I can’t believe that it’s been 6 years since I wrote to you. I’m still a keen follower, and I think years of reading the best way to go about things has helped a lot in the way that I approach things at work and probably why I’ve had so much success recently.

Since my initial question to you, I feel that my career was derailed for several years – and upset that it could be impacted due to a single person misbehaving, who I recently saw on TV in a Senate hearing on the unlawfulness of his department’s behaviour (it’s related to the Australian Robodebt scheme). It probably wouldn’t have been that bad, except for the next couple of roles, which were lower level than the one I had at the company I left, I was hired in by people who subsequently left in a short amount of time and in one case didn’t have the mandate to bring me on for what they told me I was brought on for. A lot of people retire at the same level I’m currently at, and before I took my new job I felt I was just doing it for the paycheck and waiting out for retirement in my late thirties.

End of last year I was headhunted for the role I’m now in, and it is the best. They had called me about my interest a while ago, but didn’t interview me for a couple months, as I was more expensive than they would have liked. Once I did interview, I had a job offer by the next day.

The company is a household name where I am, and a big driver of diversity and gender equity, which is why I believe I’ve thrived. Throughout my career I’ve often been the only woman in a room, and just before International Women’s Day we had a bonding moment following a meeting where it was all women, in a male dominated industry, where four out of five of us were WOC and leaders. The environment is also so much more respectful and collaborative, which I believe is due to the company embracing inclusiveness as part of its culture. The senior leadership is almost 50:50 gender split, and one of them, who is also a WOC, has taken me under her wing, where I am now being invited by the C-Suite to discuss strategy and actively participating in the company’s direction, while being a relatively low level manager.

My ambition and drive is back, I feel the need to give back in mentoring and bringing up the next level of young people in the industry, and I see a pathway for myself into senior leadership, which as they always say helps by being able to see people like yourself already represented. My only concern is that I may actually need to deliver on what I propose, and not be like the person who wanted to just be the ideas guy, which is a challenge, but one I am up for.

It’s a special “where are you now?” season at Ask a Manager and I’m running updates from people who had their letters here answered in the past. Here are four updates from past letter-writers.

There will be more posts than usual this week, so keep checking back– there’s more to come today!

1. I’m missing out on face time with the CEO because I don’t go on our monthly hikes

I am sad to report nothing changed – or maybe it has gotten worse in that he’s now making more open endorsements for these types of events in a way that borders on body-shaming. He has made comments about how frustrating it is that more people aren’t attending and that “from the looks of things” they would benefit from the exercise. Every July, we surprise our employees of the year with gift baskets that include gift cards and snacks. I asked him last week what he had in mind for the baskets this year, and he said he didn’t know yet but that it certainly won’t be fast food gift cards or sugary snacks. I can understand his conviction to promote a healthy lifestyle, but I don’t think it’s his place to police anyone’s body, how frequently they move it or what they put in it. And frankly, it’s just coming across as odd that he’s got such a hang up about people who don’t fit his idea of “healthy” to the point of outright excluding or discriminating against them.

He recently nominated his (female) assistant for an award that is more commonly given to men, and she won. His response to that was, “I knew she’d get it. They don’t want to put old men in those photos. They want the young attractive girl with big blue eyes.” It makes me cringe every time I think about it. I don’t think he said it in a perverted way, but it still says a lot about how he perceives women in the workplace – as if we are all there to be visually appealing to the men and not because we are just as qualified. One thing that has changed is that I recently earned my master’s degree in organizational leadership. It has really opened my eyes to just how toxic his leadership style is, and I plan to start looking for another job as soon as I wrap up some big projects here in the next month or two!

2. Should I tell my coworker about our colleague’s criminal record?

Thank you again to you and to the commentariat for the responses. Unfortunately, in my country we don’t have a public sex offenders registry, I wish we did. It turns out though that Veronica was made aware about Cassidy not long after she started working here and I need not have worried. But I’m glad to now know that rather than have risked finding out that she didn’t know after having done nothing. I can continue to enjoy my job with one less stress.

3. How do I weigh the risks of staying where I am vs. changing fields?

I so appreciated hearing from other folks in the comments who were in similar positions as I am, as well as those who reassured me there is no recession-proof job, and encouraged me not to stay based on fear. The commenters’ advice that it can’t hurt to start exploring helped a lot to get me moving without feeling like I was taking a risky jump just yet.

I started looking at job postings to get a feel for what’s out there, interviewed at a couple of places, looked at additional training that might take my career in a different direction, and engaged a career coach (gave me some things to think about, although overall we weren’t a good fit). I also, frankly, started sucking up more to my coworkers and boss who were hostile about all the schedule shifting I was doing to care for my young children and myself. I communicated more about my schedule and my struggles when my children and I are sick. I overly expressed gratitude and brought in treats for those who covered my shifts. Looking back, I wish I had done this earlier, but I didn’t have the spoons for this before when my household was sick all the time.

On the career search front, I started feeling overwhelmed and frustrated. One very, very important factor that I can’t believe I forgot to include in my post was that the organization I work for is a non-profit, so I am 5-approved-years-in to the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program for my student loans. If I left for another job, my best moves would be at another eligible organization or for a salary high enough to justify leaving PSLF behind. In my location, or even looking at remote positions in my timezone, the most relevant options are very limited. I’m still exploring what stretch opportunities might fit best.

Then a few things happened all at once. My boss surprised us with an across-the-board salary market increase. While still low compared to other industries, within my geographical area and field this brought my salary at or above other similar positions. My organization also announced that due to their increased focus on flexibility and wellness, they were encouraging managers to allow more flexibility with employee schedules, which my boss has been doing. Not only did we receive our entire PTO bank at the beginning of the year, but my children were less frequently sick and daycare eased their Covid-19 policies, which relieved much of the weight off my shoulders. I felt much more support from my boss and coworkers overall.

Then my boss announced her retirement (which likely helped in her being more flexible). Her job is not a position I’m interested in at this time, but a friend is likely to take her place, so I’m hesitantly more comfortable staying here at least until I hopefully complete my PSLF and better figure things out. Some things remain the same – no growth potential, relatively low pay with no merit raises, still relatively inflexible environment, long commute, being the default parent for young children. My oldest will start in the US public school system in the fall, so I’m sure our scheduling woes are only going to get worse. I’m actively reflecting on what works and what doesn’t about my work, and trying to stay open about what that might mean for the future.

Thank you all for taking the time to commiserate and encourage me! What a wonderful community this is.

4. How can I support my partner after his job loss?

I am the letter-writer who wrote in asking how to support my partner through job loss. I am very happy to report that he received an offer and started a new job in December 2022, about a month after the question was published. The new role is both a title and salary bump from his previous job, and during negotiations, he was able to get a 90 day review with the possibility of an additional salary increase. Even better, he got a glowing review at the 90 day mark and his boss was actually able to get him a slightly bigger salary increase than had been discussed at the offer stage. He’s thriving in the new role and I’m very grateful to the AAM community for such thoughtful responses to this difficult situation.

It’s a special “where are you now?” season at Ask a Manager and I’m running updates from people who had their letters here answered in the past.

There will be more posts than usual this week, so keep checking back throughout the day.

Remember the letter-writer whose employee was blowing up her phone with memes and videos — even in the middle of the night — and refused to stop? Here’s the update.

I’m happy to share an update. You were certainly right about Lisa.

I directly instructed her to stop sending memes and she became very unhappy at work and began complaining.

Her neediness took on a new form cloaked in more professional excuses, and she requested meeting after meeting where she complained about not feeling supported or loved. She told stories about past bosses who threw house parties, bosses who wanted hourly texts, and slowly explained that maybe I just don’t know how to be a boss, since I worked at a sandwich shop in high school. In my decade of owning a business, this was the first time any employee had just straight up insulted my work experience to my face.

Finally, I couldn’t attend yet another meeting and she quit. She quit via email 12 minutes before a full day of client appointments. She must have snuck into my business in the middle of the night to take home her things. I was relieved because I thought it was over.

Unfortunately, she continues to find excuses to stay in touch even now, months later. First, she didn’t receive her final paycheck in the mail, so I allowed her to stop by in person and she brought her kid and it took an hour to get her out. Then, she emailed saying she’d left an item (think a small item like a Tupperware lid or clipboard) and wanted to stop by to look for it. I responded strongly, telling her in no uncertain terms I did not have her item and that she was not to stop by. Next she had a friend (who was never a customer) leave fake reviews on my business Google and Yelp pages, writing that Lisa was the best employee we’d ever had.

Now she’s emailing again saying a tool I once bought her needs repair—will I send the SKU on the receipt? Problem is, we buy a lot from this supplier and she didn’t even tell me which month it was purchased so I’d have to go through a year of receipts in detail in the hopes of finding this for her. It would take me at least 2-3 hours to deal with this and I feel that her new employer should be buying or repairing her tools, not me.

So far I haven’t responded at all. I am worried now that any response will encourage her to keep engaging. I truly don’t understand why she won’t just go away.