interview with a veterinary social worker

by Alison Green on January 23, 2023

Recently we had a question from a veterinary social worker, and many readers asked to hear more about the job. Bonnie Downing has generously agreed to tell us more about how that works, and here’s our conversation.

Tell us about the work you do.

I work in a veterinary emergency room in a dual role supporting both outside clients and clinic staff. With outside clients I do short-term counseling, both for decision-making in terms of end-of-life care and financial constraints, and in a support capacity during emotionally difficult visits and euthanasia. This is also part of my staff support role – having a trained and informed counselor to call in during those times gives them more time with patients. With staff I offer short-term coaching and referral to longer-term mental health resources, stress-relieving and team-building activities, and most importantly suicide assessment and intervention. The veterinary field unfortunately has a very high rate of suicide due to several factors, and having someone on hand who’s trained in that area can be crucially important.

How common is this type of role in a vet clinic? I’m guessing it’s something larger clinics are more likely to have than smaller ones?

It’s not terribly common, I think there are fewer than half a dozen of us in my area. There’s at least one corporate chain of vet clinics that has VSWs in clinics, and another that I believe has employed social workers in more organization-wide capacities. There are some VSWs who work independently in association with mobile vets or with large animals, some in veterinary schools, and some like me who are in larger privately owned clinics. As awareness of the VSW role spreads, I hope that we can make services more accessible on an ad hoc basis to the staffs of smaller clinics as well.

However, there are enough that we have an annual international conference! The IAVSW (International Association of Veterinary Social Workers) hosts a fantastic conference with insights and networking with VSWs all around the world.

How did you get into this work?

I was in school for my Master of Social Work and was assigned to a veterinary clinic for my internship field work. I called the school and asked if they’d put me in the wrong program, and they said no, it was a social work program. I spent nine months in that internship and absolutely loved the work, so when my mentor from that position called me a few years later to ask if I’d be interested in an opportunity she knew about, I jumped on it!

What are the logistics of the job — when do they bring you in and how are clients introduced to your role?

For everyone I meet, I introduce myself with my name and my role, and clarify the reason I’m meeting with them. Since VSWs are rare and since people can have vastly different ideas of what it means to meet with a social worker, we want it to be very clear what my role is. Very occasionally I’ll advise the staff to avoid the words “social worker” and just introduce me as a counselor – in a volatile situation with someone who may have had negative involvement with social workers in the past, we want to be sensitive to the current situation and don’t want to get into the weeds explaining that I’m here for support and not to dig into their social welfare history. Unfortunately, one of my rare roles is also to assess and provide resources in cases of domestic abuse.

We have a pretty solid rhythm going for most situations – if a client comes into the clinic for euthanasia, I’m sent in first to assess the situation and talk them through the process. This can save the staff a lot of time and give the client the space they need to talk through their decision with someone trained in that area – sometimes it’s a very quick discussion, sometimes we spend quite a bit of time talking about the pet’s life, the current situation, and the decision-making process. Doctors also have the right to decline a euthanasia procedure if they don’t feel that it’s the best option for the pet, and I know the red flags to be aware of so that I can step out and ask for a further medical evaluation before we proceed with any paperwork. If the client prefers, I can also sit with them throughout the procedure – it can be a very lonely thing to do if you don’t have someone with you, and while some people prefer that, some really appreciate having the support. In other cases the staff will bring me in to help with decisions or to check in on clients they’re concerned about. I’ll often come in to a handful of messages in the morning with information on cases that could use a follow-up and offer of support.

Re: deciding when it’s time for euthanasia — I’ve struggled a lot with this, and I think many of us have a tendency to wait too long, sometimes at the expense of the animal (which can be easier to see in hindsight than while you’re going through it). I remember several years ago when I was trying to decide when it was time for my cat Sam, a commenter here said something that stuck with me — they worked in a zoo, and they said, “A day too early is better than a day too late.” That made so much sense to me. And yet it’s still so hard. I think it would be so helpful to have someone like you helping to guide that decision!

I agree with your commenter, and that’s a great reminder. I’m somewhat judicious in when I use that phrase since — as with anything else — receptiveness really varies. For some people in certain situations, all they’re able to hear is “too early” and it increases their difficulty with knowing whether it’s really time. I’m so sorry about Sam, too — even when it’s been years, we love them just the same.

Can you share some guidelines for how people can know when it is (or isn’t) time?

It can be so difficult! Often with an elderly pet or one who’s been through many medical issues, we can come to a feeling that they’ve been through so much, maybe they’ll just live forever, or worry that we’ll just have no idea how to know when the next crisis is the last one. There’s a lot that goes into the mental equation: one thing that we refer to a lot is quality of life, meaning that we want to consider whether the pet’s life post-medical intervention will be better or worse than their life before. So often there are treatments that are possible to do, but even if they fix the presenting immediate problem there are so many underlying problems that it’s just a temporary band-aid. Those conversations are mostly in the context of acute emergencies and interventions. For progressive illnesses or age-related decline, we’ll typically talk generally about whether they’ve had more good days than bad recently – often a pet will rally with one good day right when you’re starting to feel it’s time, so considering their life quality as a whole can be helpful. I find that it helps to have some concrete factors to think about, so the first I discuss is our metric of “think of 5 things your pet loves to do – when they can’t do 3 of them, it’s time.” Of course, when your pet’s favorite things to do are sleep, sleep, and sleep, that one can be less than helpful. In those cases or when I’m working with someone who needs to find a way to quantify this emotional subject with numbers, I use the HHHHHMM scale which uses numbered scales to evaluate Hurt, Hunger, Hydration, Hygiene, Happiness, Mobility, and More Good Days Than Bad. The last is less helpful in an emergency context, but I found it very useful to keep in mind with one of my own pets as he approached the end of his life.

I would think talking to kids about hard things with animals is in some way its own skill set. Do you have any tips on how to do that?

It really is — development throughout childhood means that two kids within the same family may have very different reactions to what’s happening with their pet and very different understandings of everything going on. My best advice with any age of children is to channel Mister Rogers — straightforward, kind truth. Many preadolescent children just don’t have the ability yet to understand the permanence of death, and often their emotions can be more a reaction to their parents’ emotions than their own understanding. It can also be upsetting to parents when their kids don’t seem to be as affected as the parents expect them to be — I’ll frequently talk parents through some of those stages of understanding, including that kids often come back weeks, months, or even years later to ask questions and walk through what happened again as their understanding of death changes.

Pets are usually the first experience children have with death and it can be a touchstone throughout their lives of their processing of the concept. I tell parents that it can ultimately be a very positive thing — a big fear that parents often have is that the pet they pictured growing up with their kids will be forgotten. In my experience, even a pet who’s passed is still a very present part of a family in pictures, stories, videos, or even the Christmas presents we still get from my husband’s childhood dog. My own kids were 18 months old when we lost our first dog, and while they obviously couldn’t actually remember her, they still talk about her as a beloved member of our family. They tell and retell the stories of them learning to crawl by following her around, and that her name was my daughter’s first word, and that my old doll that my kids slept with as babies has oddly mismatched limbs because she once ate an arm and some toes. In many ways, children keep pets in our living memory even more than we as adults do with their love of stories and repetition, and all of that is part of their own process of development in relation to death as well.

The book I most often use with kids (of every age) is When A Pet Dies by Fred Rogers.

That makes a ton of sense. What a great resource you must be! What do you like the best about the job?

The easy answer would be “the puppies and kittens” — of course everyone thinks that working in a vet clinic is all puppies and kittens, and sometimes it is! My coworkers will call me in to “social-work the patient” when we have a little one who needs the warmth and contact of snuggles. Really, though, what I love about the job is that I get to work with such a wide variety of people and my presence is typically a very welcome surprise, since most of our clients walk in the door not knowing that VSWs exist. My position is as a full-time staff member of the clinic, so I’m able to provide one of the rarest things in this country — free-to-the-client short-term mental health care.

What’s hardest about the job?

Because it is an emergency clinic, we see the most urgent and devastating cases. We’re all in the field because we love animals, and seeing them in pain and distress is incredibly hard. Of course, the patient and their human are our highest priority, so our own feelings about these situations necessarily need to be on the back burner until we’re able to process them later. And while I’m not directly involved in patient care, I also have the third layer of taking care of staff in those hard situations before I’m able to process for myself.

What surprised you about it and/or what do you think would surprise other people about your work?

It surprised me how much we’re needed — a position that most veterinary clinics don’t have and many don’t even know about seems like it might be superfluous, if those other clinics are running fine without a VSW. But the position that pets hold in our homes and our society is unique — so often, the process of working through decisions regarding pet care and end of life is really about reflecting on values, family, connections to lost loved ones, experiences with other pets, complicated feelings about aging and disease, finances and the ethics of the fact that medical science can do so much but sometimes shouldn’t, and that those decisions are always ultimately up to the owners who need time they often don’t have to be educated about the problem at hand and feel like they can come to a decision they can live with. Whether it’s the expected but emotionally complex passing of an elderly pet that is the last remaining link to a late loved one or helping a child understand what’s happening with their beloved hamster, honoring each person’s and pet’s journey is something I’ll never take for granted.

My sister and I both worked as assistants in a vet clinic when we were in high school, and then many years later my niece did too. I don’t think people always realize how hard that work is — you see a lot of really upsetting things. I’ve never loved the term self-care but I can’t think what else to use here — what’s your own approach to self-care to make sure you have room to recuperate and don’t burn out?

As I tell my staff and others I’ve worked with, self-care isn’t a bubble bath and candles… unless it is for you. In my view, self-care is doing the thing that gives you what you need in that moment. For me personally, self-care is giving myself permission to mentally rest between cases and when I get home, and to really leave work at work. I listen to a lot of podcasts and audiobooks, and I have ADHD so I always want to be doing something with my hands too. I have an absurdly comprehensive collection of craft supplies and cycle through the various things that make me happy to accomplish. It’s also important to me to model self-care professionally — you’ll sometimes find me doing some of my office puzzles and activities myself or crocheting, both as my necessary emotional reset and as a way to very intentionally communicate my availability to the staff. When someone is feeling emotionally vulnerable and talking themself into asking for help, a social worker who seems to be terribly busy all the time can be a barrier to asking for that help. Making it clear that I and my office are always available to help is, in my opinion, a huge part of my job.

I love that. You originally wrote in because when you tell people what you do, you end up hearing everyone’s sad animal stories and you’re not always in a headspace for that. Any progress on that?

Yes — I’m really only giving my full title in conversation when I’m emotionally available for those stories, and otherwise “I work in a vet clinic” tends to be sufficient.

Anything I didn’t ask about that you think would be interesting to share?

I want people to know that their pets are treated with love — it’s hard for owners to leave their pets in the hospital in a scary time and feel like they’re alone, and I’m touched and humbled every day by the amount of love that the techs, doctors, customer service representatives and yes, VSWs give to every patient we see. If your pet is amenable to snuggling and kissing, they’ll get some snuggles and kisses. If they’re not, they’ll at least get lots of mushy baby talk. Everyone (that I’ve met, at least) in this profession knows what it feels like to be on the other side of that clinic door and treats each pet like they’d want their own to be treated.

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can my employer make me wear a bra, my husband’s band doesn’t want to play my coworker’s wedding, and more

by Alison Green on January 23, 2023

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Can my employer require me to wear a bra?

I am a woman with large breasts. When I go to work, I wear a shirt/blouse and pants that are not transparent and don’t show excessive skin so private body parts are covered up.

About a month ago, my supervisor pulled me into her office and told me I need to wear a bra to work. Later that day, I asked two male coworkers who happen to be my friends if they were told to wear a bra and they said no.

Two weeks go by and that supervisor and another female supervisor again pull me into the office and ask why I’m not wearing a bra. I said that the men in the office aren’t wearing one so why should I? They told me men and women have different bodies, men don’t wear bras, and all the women in the office are wearing a bra.

Yesterday they brought me into the office again, telling me this is the last time I can come to work like this and next time I will be sent home to put on a bra. They gave me a copy of the company dress code policy, and nowhere does it say employees have to wear a bra. It does say employees are expected to be neat, well-groomed, and suitably dressed for work and that sexually provocative clothing is prohibited. I told them I have no problem with a dress code policy as long as it’s applied to everyone equally. I would have no problem wearing a bra if men were also required to wear one. They told me men don’t wear bras but women have to wear one. What should I do?

I agree employers shouldn’t be policing employees’ undergarments but legally, employers are permitted to require women to wear bras despite not requiring it of men (as long as they make exceptions for medical or religious accommodations). In the U.S., courts have generally upheld different dress codes for men and women based on traditional gender stereotypes, as long as the dress code doesn’t place a significantly higher burden on one sex. They can also, for example, prohibit long hair or nail polish on men while allowing it on women. I suspect we’re going to see more legal challenges to this, though, particularly given the obvious clash with laws prohibiting discrimination based on gender identity, but so far it hasn’t changed legally. Until it does, employers can require bras. That’s true even if it’s not written down in their dress code (they’d likely argue it falls under general professional appearance).

So you’ve got to decide how much you want to push the issue. It’s really up to you — hell, if you want to, talk a lawyer and see if you can find someone up for testing the law — but so far they do have the right to require it.

2. My husband doesn’t want to play my coworker’s wedding

Our workplace is smallish, with about 50 employees scattered amongst separate departments. A few months ago, I had to speak with a relatively new employee, Jane. She is in a different department than I am and I rarely have to interact with her. She is a recent college grad and this is her first job out of college. She normally gives off a friendly vibe, but during my talk with her she was rather rude and basically insinuated I was stupid with the question I asked. After the interaction, I avoided her and she has said and done more things in the office that give off “entitlement vibes.” It’s incredibly frustrating.

Jane has also recently become engaged and is actively searching for vendors for her wedding. And as karma would have it, my husband has the biggest/most successful wedding band in our state. I help him run the business behind the scenes, but he is the talent and is very well known in our area.

I was replying to wedding inquiry emails recently, when it just so happens Jane had inquired about pricing. She stated in the email she’s seen the band play multiple times and in her words “NEEDS” to have them play for her day to be perfect.

I don’t think she knows the wedding band and singer she wants is my husband. (These emails are addressed to something like name@weddingband.com.) We have a pretty common last name, I don’t go out to see him play much, and he’s only visited me a handful of times at work. My husband knows all the work drama and my frustration with this woman and he doesn’t really want me to have to deal with all of her wedding details behind the scenes. Her wedding date is out far enough that he hasn’t booked it yet. He also has a calendar on their website with dates that are open so clients can clearly see if the date they want is booked or not.

My husband suggests asking for an atrocious amount of money so she will decline herself. I think we should just respond that they won’t be a good fit and leave it at that. I want to hear what you would suggest that would be professional for myself and my husband.

Asking for a ridiculous amount of money risks blowback in ways you’re not anticipating (like if she discourages someone else from hiring the band because of their prices) … or she could even say yes. And “not a good fit” is going to raise a ton of questions about why. You’re better off just replying that it’s looking very likely the band will have a conflict with that date and so you’re not able to book it. Yes, it’s open on the website but she’s not going to know what might be happening behind the scenes. If she continues to email after that, give one firm “we won’t be available to play your wedding, best wishes” and stop replying.

Read an update to this letter. 

3. Is it unprofessional to sit with my foot on my chair?

I am in my late 20’s, in my first professional role. I’ve worked in offices my whole work life but only in admin/research roles. I’ve never had any complaints about my professionalism at work (that I’m aware of!), but my new role working directly for the owner of a firm with billable hours and client meetings has me questioning myself.

I cannot sit comfortably in an office chair unless I have one foot tucked up under me. Sometimes I sit completely cross-legged. I know it’s weird, but I’ve always been this way. I wear high-heel ankle boots or strappy heels every day so my feet are never completely bare and exposed, and my legs are mostly concealed under my desk. It’s only if my boss comes to my desk to chat and I swivel to face him, that anyone would know. I also never ever sit like this in meetings or anywhere but my desk.

Could sitting comfortably reflect poorly on me? Or do other people do it too?

Some other people sit this way too! I wouldn’t do it in most meetings (unless it’s a very casual one) and definitely not with clients or if you sit in a public-facing area, but otherwise in most offices it’s not a big deal (with the exception of fields that expect you to be especially polished all the time).

4. My boss wants me to take a class when I’m already drowning

I just had my performance review at work. I have a very corporate job and am comfortable in my position. My boss said he wants one of my goals for the year to be getting a specific designation (ex: Jane Smith, CPA) which means lots of studying and a test.

I have two little kids, 18 months and four years old, who go to daycare full-time and don’t sleep through the night, and every day I am just spent. Is it horrible that I don’t want to take on anything additional right now? Maybe in a couple years I’ll be in a better head space for this but I just feel like I’m drowning and having the added pressure of this class and passing the test is already giving me so much anxiety. I know you are suppose to “always keep learning” blah blah blah, but can’t I just be content where I am at? Is this bad? Am I the only one like this? My kids are my life and honestly work for me is a job. I hate to say I don’t “care” about my career but ugh. Sorry for rambling. When I took this job there was no mention of additional education requirements. Can I be fired if I say no? I know plenty of moms work, go to school, etc. and I applaud them.

Your reaction is not bad and you are not the only one who would feel overwhelmed. Your situation is overwhelming enough as it is, without adding more stresses in! There is nothing wrong with saying to your boss, “Because of some things going on in my life outside of work, it would be difficult for me to pursue this right now. I’m open to revisiting it down the road, but realistically it’s not something I can take on this year.”

In a lot of situations and with a lot of bosses, that would be the end of it! Your boss may have no idea that you feel this way and might back off completely once you say no. In theory he could tell you it’s a requirement to keep your job, but unless there’s an obvious reason for him to do that (like the law has changed and this designation is now required in order to do your job), that’s probably not going to happen. If it does, you’ll figure out at that point if you’re up for doing it or not (and can consider saying the only way you can do it is if the classes and studying happen during work time) … but there’s a good chance you won’t need to.

Now, might there other costs to saying no? Sure, with some bosses there could be. (Others won’t care.) But it’s okay to make those trade-offs when you want/need to.

5. Relocation resources for job candidates

I’m working in HR for a company that provides utility services to an industrial park, and we are working incredibly hard to counteract the loss of about 30 long-time employees in the last three years to retirement. We are doing all the things you do in such situations, working with national recruiters, and trying to entice people to move to our location.

As such, I’m thinking about developing a small packet of resources to give to candidates who fly out to meet for an in-person interview. I thought I could include the names of a couple real estate agents, some information about school rankings in the area, and …. other stuff about our city. But what other stuff? Do other companies do this? What resources should we provide to people considering a move to a new location?

Yes, this is a thing companies do! You can include info on cultural attractions and local events, public transportation, the cost of living (including median rent and home prices), anything that might make your area especially appealing (maybe it’s the low cost of living, tons of nature, lots of cultural events, diversity of the schools, or a small community feel), and even quotes from employees about why they like living there and/or their favorite area spots. If you offer relocation help, make sure you give details about that as well.

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weekend open thread – Jan. 21-22, 2023

by Alison Green on January 20, 2023

This comment section is open for any non-work-related discussion you’d like to have with other readers, by popular demand.

Here are the rules for the weekend posts.

Book recommendation of the week: Mouth to Mouth, by Antoine Wilson. After a man saves a famous art dealer from drowning, their paths twist together in surprising ways. Beautifully written and compelling.

* I make a commission if you use that Amazon link.

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it’s your Friday good news

by Alison Green on January 20, 2023

It’s your Friday good news!

1.  “Several months ago I inherited a part-time employee we thought we would have to fire. She’d been with the company a few months and wasn’t picking up the basics, and working with me was the last chance. She is in a new field, and I realized quickly she was nervous and had also received a lot of negative feedback from several people, which made her even more flustered. She responds well though to constructive feedback and thrives when she gets praise. Giving her deserved praise seemed to really raise her confidence. I took the constructive/praise approach to coach and manage her, and last week we asked her to step in and fill a temporary need that has her in the office more and doing higher-level work. Today, we had a problem I just couldn’t solve, and guess who solved it? The employee I thought we were going to fire three months ago.”

Update from this week: “She is now permanently in the role she was helping us with, and is ROCKING it. I’m just thrilled for her. She’s an asset.”

2.  “I have been reading your blog for a few years now after my sister mentioned how much she loved AAM. I always read the Friday Good News posts and thought ‘yeah right, that will never happen for me’ — but now I have some good news of my own!

I have been a non-profit/legal services attorney for my entire career. As much as I love the work I do with clients, it became more and more apparent to me during the pandemic that the work was not worth the lack of support from leadership, being severely underpaid, and little ways to further develop my skills as an attorney. About 4 months ago, leadership announced that our retiring ED would be replaced with an internal candidate who was unpopular enough that it has set off a wave of people looking for new jobs, or even quitting without a job lined-up. It was the kick in the pants I needed to start applying. I revamped my cover letter and resume with your (wonderful!) guidance and started applying to jobs both in and out of my current industry. Alison – this application process has been a night and day difference from any of my previous job searches! I feel so much more confident and am able to see an interview as a conversation where both parties are looking for a good fit.

During my interviews, I was able to give thoughtful answers (especially to behavioral questions I was not familiar with until reading AAM) and I received great feedback on my cover letter. Eventually, I was offered a position at a private law firm which would allow me to grow as an attorney but have a percentage of my clients from the firm’s pro-bono practice (which is a dream come true for me!) The benefits are astronomically better – and the pay is nearly about a 90% increase over what I currently make. I normally am very shy about asking for flexibility around a start date or other work accommodations, but after I received an offer, I felt confident enough to ask upfront. The company’s response was great and they were more than willing to be flexible, which I saw as a great sign. Best of all – I finally feel like I deserve to be treated well at a job. Especially as a child of immigrants, we are sometimes told by our families that we need to just take whatever we are offered, no matter how toxic. We do not. I finally feel like I am going somewhere where I am valued. I don’t think I would have gotten there if it wasn’t for this blog.”

3.  “I wrote to you a while back to ask about getting ghosted on an internship application where the employer (a national lab) had specifically asked me to apply and helped me apply to positions they helped me find, then dropped all contact with me afterwards. I later wound up getting interviewed (and sadly rejected) for two internships at a different employer I much preferred to the national lab. I was pretty devastated, but I went ahead and continued applying … and I got not one, not two, but three offers for internships within a two week period! I chose the one that meshes best with my career goals, which also happens to be a pathway to a permanent job in a field I love and a company that I used to think I could only dream about working for.

I also want to encourage any other students out there looking for internships to keep on applying. Everyone I talked to said the most important factor in getting an internship is persistence — there’s so many people wanting them and only so many positions open, so you have to apply to many, many positions to get a single offer. I’d also like to give a shoutout to your resume, cover letter, and interview guides. I used all of these to sculpt my application materials, including my ‘about me’ spiel for the beginning of interviews/introductions to people at career fairs, which I think helped me stand out from others and helped me secure three offers in a short period of time.

Again, thank you so much, and good luck to all.”

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open thread – January 20-21, 2023

by Alison Green on January 20, 2023

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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my boss refuses to speak to me during my notice period, who says when I can work from home, and more

by Alison Green on January 20, 2023

It’s four answers to four questions. Here we go…

1. My boss is refusing to talk to me during my notice period

I’ve been at my company now for over five years. It’s a very small company (less than10 employees), and my role is second-in-command to the company’s founder.

Late last year, I accepted a new position at another firm. I told my boss as soon as possible, and she took the news awfully, telling me she was furious and felt betrayed. The conversation went terribly and caused a lot of stress on my part.

I’m currently in the process of working out my (long) notice period, and my boss hasn’t spoken to me since. My colleague – a direct report – has confirmed that my boss is actively choosing not to speak to me.

Since I’m in a managerial position and usually follow her orders (and then delegate these to my direct reports), I’m at a loss for what to do, and feel very much in limbo. I’m left feeling completely shut out and hurt. I’ve put a lot into this company, and other people have left in the past without issue, so it feels unfair that she has singled me out and projected so much anger onto the situation. Is there any way I can try to resolve things before I leave, or shall I just keep my head down?

I’m in a country where my one-month notice period is contractually obligated, so I can’t leave early.

If you weren’t contractually obligated to stay, I’d tell you to leave early, framing it as, “I’d wanted to give you a lot of notice so we could plan a transition. But it doesn’t seem like this is working well so my last day will be ___” (something no more than a week away).

But since that’s not an option … well, you can try to talk to your boss, but this is a person who is actively choosing to freeze you out just because you took another job — in other words, for doing a very normal thing that everyone there is likely to do at some point. If you want, you could attempt a single “I’d like to meet with you soon that we can talk about transition items since time is running out and I know you want this to go as smoothly as possible.” But if that doesn’t work, and I’m betting it won’t, then this is really her bed and you’ve got to let her lie in it. She’s the one who’s going to be harmed by it; it’s soon not going to be your problem.

If you don’t have much to do, document what you can, meet with the people you manage and find out if there’s anything they want training in or a brain dump about before you go … and that’s about all you can do. That’s on her, not you.

2. An employee just died and our CEO’s solution is to set up a GoFundMe

I work for a mostly remote company with employees scattered across the country. A few weeks before Christmas, we had a mandatory in-person meeting. One employee showed up sick and got 14 people sick with a very nasty case of influenza A.

We just got called into a very quick all-hands meeting where it was announced that a young employee on my team passed away very suddenly last night, most likely from complications from that flu. Obviously our whole team is in shock, and a fellow employee raised their hand to ask what our company would be doing to support their family; we were all expecting the answer to be something along the lines of sending flowers and support for the services.

Well, our CEO’s solution was to ask that employee (who was not close to the employee who passed and had really only met him once) to set up a GoFundMe that we could all donate to. He then asked if we could make LinkedIn posts in memoriam.

Am I wrong for feeling like this is not the proper way to handle this at all? The company itself is profitable and pulls in millions of dollars a year, while the vast majority of the employees make anywhere from $50k-90k. While I am in the position that I can donate, I don’t think everyone’s financial situations may allow them to do so. I think a GoFundMe is a strange answer to begin with as well? What are your thoughts?

How terrible. And you are not wrong. If the company would like to send support to the family, it should do so itself, not ask individual employees to fund something. (And I agree a GoFundMe is a strange answer as well, particularly if there’s not been any indication his family wants that kind of help.)

Would you and a group of coworkers be up for prodding the company to handle this differently? Something like “we’d like to see the company itself send support to the family, rather than asking individual employees to fund that” would be reasonable.

3. Baby gift etiquette

Last year, my wife and I welcomed our second child. On my last workday before my wife’s scheduled induction, a coworker I work closely with asked for the link to our baby registry. I shared it with him and then headed off for my parental leave.

Evidently, he shared it with the rest of my team — and they were incredibly generous. A few days after the baby was born, my mother-in-law went to buy us a gift and told us that everything on the registry had been bought. A diaper fund was also started. We were very grateful and sent individual thank-you notes to everyone as well as a treat and more general thank-you note to the office for the team.

The thing is, we’ve now had a … surprise. Our third child is due and will be just 13 months younger than our second. I feel uncomfortable and can’t shake the irrational worry that my team might think this is some sort of cash grab. Do I need to say anything to let them know we don’t expect or demand any gifts? Is there a way to communicate that without sounding ungrateful for their previous generosity?

It is extremely unlikely that your office will think you are having a baby — a massive 18-year financial commitment, minimum — in order to get more gifts from them. That would be fantastically short-term thinking from you and your partner, and I suspect they think better of you than that.

However, if anyone asks you about a registry this time (or otherwise intimates they’re thinking about gifts), you could say, “Thanks for asking, but we have everything we need! And everyone here was so generous last time that we couldn’t possibly accept anything else other than your good wishes.”

4. Who says when I can work from home?

I’m part of a team of about 30 admins who support 200+ offices across six states. Up until four months ago, the job was remote, although some, including me, chose to work in offices near our homes. Then the company called all remote employees back to offices, assigning us individually to specific locations. Since we’ve returned to the offices, there’ve been many changes in duties, expectations, and culture, including who we report to. This is where it gets tricky.

Philippa manages our entire cohort and (theoretically) sets the rules and expectations — one of which is we’re no longer allowed to work from home. However, each of us works in an office with a manager who sets things like daily duties (beyond what we were doing before), desk stations, etc. I happen to have two: Sylvia and Michael, her own manager. Both manage me daily, while Philippa is in another state. In fact, I’ve only met Philippa in person once. Philippa is entirely opposed to anyone working from home, but Sylvia and Michael encourage it in certain situations. For example, if I’m sick enough that I might spread germs, but still well enough to work, they’re fine with me working remotely. It’s the same for inclement weather. Also, I now have over an hour commute on public transportation that can be unreliable. There are also times when my office closes early, and Sylvia and Michael suggest that I just work from home rather than waste two hours of travel for a short day. Thus far, I’ve worked from home on such days, but even though I have permission from Sylvia and Michael, I’ve not told Philippa for fear of making waves. I’ve seen this go badly for others in my cohort, and there are already issues regarding who has final authority in terms of our responsibilities and scheduling.

How might I best navigate this? The last time I worked from home (a short day before a holiday), Philippa called me on Zoom, but luckily she never asked where I was and my background is a picture of my office. My overall sense is that, eventually, our positions will be more office-oriented with less oversight from Philippa and corporate headquarters. We were placed in offices to provide greater support to managers and employees, but because all of this is new, the chain of command is a little fuzzy. But on some level, Phippa is still in charge. On a personal note, Sylvia and Michael are fantastic. They’ve been super understanding about the public transportation issues, and I have been super willing to take on a few extra duties to help the office run smoothly. Philippa, however, has other ideas about what I should be doing and where. I’ve seen the seeds of a power struggle being planted, and I don’t want to water them … but sometimes it really is best to work from home.

If your direct managers are telling you that you can work from home, it’s reasonable to listen them. If it’s ever challenged, you can plausibly say you assumed it was okay because your managers told you it was okay each time. There are a lot of things where individual managers have the authority to deviate from broader policy.

If Philippa were to ever say to you, “I don’t care what Sylvia and Michael tell you; it’s still not okay to ever work from home,” that would change things. At that point, you’d need to take that to Sylvia and Michael and explain you don’t feel comfortable violating Philippa’s direct instruction, unless it’s something they wanted to take up with her themselves. But it doesn’t sound like that’s happened yet, so go on taking direction from the people managing you.

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I had to deal with a sick toddler and a vomiting dog while doing a video interview

by Alison Green on January 19, 2023

A reader writes:

I am a mom to a 2.5 year old and, due to the obstacles of trying to work in a pandemic with a small child, sought a part-time role and started with a new employer in March of last year. I really like this company, and recent opportunities for growth and my interest in transitioning to full-time led me to apply to a new position here. This a very good opportunity, and I am more than qualified for the work. I was not surprised that I got an interview, which was yesterday.

Let me tell you about this not-great interview. It occurred via Zoom on one of my days off when I was at home. The night prior I ended up getting about two hours of sleep due to dealing with a sick toddler. The sick toddler (who of course seemed to be feeling just fine after that) was unable to attend daycare that day, and I was not able to find back-up childcare. I will take accountability for not rescheduling the interview due to this conflict, but honestly I was so tired and am so used to just powering through this type of sick child/no childcare scenario that it simply did not occur to me as an option.

I tried to put the kid to sleep before interview time, but he woke up at the last possible second. I proceed to interview with him sitting next to me on my couch. I did explain up front to the interviewers that my child was sick and at home with me unexpectedly, and that due to this I had barely gotten any sleep. Of course, about three times during the interview my kid interrupted, and while I was able to redirect him, it just seemed *not great*. And to top it off, my terrier, who was sitting in front of me just past my view of my computer screen, repeatedly vomited and ate it while I sat helpless to stop that cycle, all the while my child is asking, “What’s that? What is the dog doing?” I was simultaneously trying my best to answer interview questions and keep the toddler quiet and away from the sick dog, AND to not be completely grossed out by having to witness something very unpleasant making a mess on my living room floor. No, the interviewers did not know about the dog barf, but I’m sure my face wasn’t looking super calm/cool/collected. I was feeling a little helpless and overwhelmed.

I am such a good fit for this role, and feel that I made that pretty clear. I also feel like I answered the questions appropriately and thoroughly despite the disruption, but I am sure I came off as completely frazzled due my lack of sleep and the absolute circus of my house in that 25-minute time frame. I am worried that since this is a work-from-home position they are going to judge me on what may have come across as a bad work environment.

Should I follow up with an email reiterating that these were unusual circumstances for me and that I really feel that this position is a good fit? Should I follow up at all? If so, how do I even explain myself without sounding like I am making excuses, or pleading with them to believe me that things are not really like that all the time in my home? Should I do nothing and hope they discount the craziness of my circumstances at that time and put more weight on my resume and my answers to the interview questions? The team knows me, but not very well. I have had minimal interaction with this department, and we are located physically in different parts of the state. I did very recently win a company-wide contest they held by submitting a humorous story, so they know who I am through that. Part of me wants to just lean on the idea that they will think I’m funny and cool enough to take on to their team. I usually have a good read on how job interviews go in either direction but I am at a loss here. I’m afraid I really blew it even though stripped down to focusing on just the interview, it went fine. I could also be completely off-base on my read of this experience because I was exhausted.

Also: next time my dog throws up during a zoom interview, should I just stop the interview to deal with that?!!?!? Is there etiquette for this kind of scenario?

Oh noooo!

Definitely send a note apologizing for the distractions and emphasizing that it’s not at all your normal working environment but just a perfect storm of problems that struck at the worst moment.

That’s so often all interviewers are looking for in a situation like this one — an acknowledgement that no, this is not how you normally work. If you say nothing, they have to wonder if maybe that kind of chaos is so typical that you don’t even register it as something that might be concerning to them. But if you acknowledge something unusual was happening and explicitly say that it’s not normal, you go a long way to setting those worries at ease. (The same is true of things like being late to an interview or arriving with mustard all over the front of your shirt. Obviously you want to try not to have either to those things happen, but sometimes life hits when you least expect it to, and acknowledging that this isn’t your norm goes a long way toward smoothing that over … since otherwise your interviewer has to wonder if the reason you’re not saying anything is because your lateness/mustard isn’t an aberration for you.)

The fact that they already know you a bit should help, too.

As for the next time your dog throws up during a zoom interview … don’t stop the interview to deal with it! Obviously, if your dog were choking and in need of immediate help or there was another emergency that had to be dealt with Right Now for reasons of safety, of course you’d need to stop to do that. But if it’s just routine pet vomit, let it go and deal with it later. If you think the vomiting noises can be heard on the call, you should briefly address that so your interviewers aren’t sitting there distracted and wondering what that ungodly noise is — but that’s just a quick, “I’m so sorry, my dog has picked this moment to throw up, please excuse that sound” and then you continue on.

I hope you get good news about this job soon!

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update: is it unprofessional to wear the same clothing item twice in a work week?

by Alison Green on January 19, 2023

Remember the letter-writer who asked whether it’s unprofessional to wear the same clothing item twice in a work week? Here’s the update.

I wrote that email to you regarding my (thankfully) now former boss. It was not the first time she had made weird comments about my appearance, or money issues, etc. But I was 25 years old, this was my first professional job, and I didn’t know how to advocate for myself. Your advice gave me comfort then that I did know what I was doing. And guess what? My clothing choices never came up again.

But when I reread this post now, it makes me sad. Because it got worse. It got so much worse. This woman had control issues. She had anger issues. She was petty. She was vindictive. She isolated me from the rest of my work environment. She belittled me and degraded me. That interaction I wrote about was the first time that my brain woke from its haze and said “This isn’t normal, is it?” I wrote you for some vindication that my feelings were correct. And when you confirmed it I wanted to cry. It was nice to know someone out there agreed with me, that I wasn’t crazy.

I’m mostly emailing as a word that, hey, if something doesn’t feel normal, that it’s okay to reach out to someone. Even if it’s not the first time something happened and you never said anything. Even if it’s something small. It doesn’t have to be HR, it could be a coworker, a friend from another team, just someone. Because it might turn out that just because it’s the first red flag for you it isn’t the only one flying. It was only after my boss left that I learnt that several people noticed my situation and were advocating for me behind the scenes. I’m ashamed every day for not coming forward myself. It took me a whole year and a half to write you! And I never did again! It’s really easy to bully yourself in this situation.

I’m happy to report that I have a new boss. He’s fantastic, and I see him cycle through the same clothes every two weeks. I’m not judged for being a person anymore.

Thanks for reading this. Your advice really was a small light in a very dark tunnel. I wish I’d written to you more during that dark time.

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how can I get used to cube life again?

by Alison Green on January 19, 2023

It’s the Thursday “ask the readers” question. A reader writes:

I just started a new job in a new city after realizing during the pandemic I wanted to live in a different part of the country. I worked completely remotely for most of the last two years because my previous organization was very Covid-cautious, but my new job has me in a cubicle in the office five days a week (we get 26 carefully rationed WFH days a year.)

I discovered while working remotely that I feel so much better with natural light at my desk at home, the ability to take a walk in the middle of the day in my nice neighborhood, and other WFH perks like starting a load of laundry in between calls. I’m back to a cube farm where I sit far away from the windows, and my office in my new city is in a downtown that has not recovered from the pandemic yet, so there are super limited options to take a lunchtime walk or find a non-sketchy park to sit in during my lunch hour. I am also a knowledge worker, and the nature of my work is not one where I can genuinely spend eight hours a day intensely working — my brain needs a break and some processing time.

What can I do to get used to cube life again and, frankly, make it bearable? I feel like I am shooting myself in the foot in my new job (that I am excited about!) feeling upset about having to be in the office (my entire team works in other states, so I am a classic coming-in-to-be-on-zoom employee). I want to give this new job a chance and feel like a whiner complaining about these things while so many people are less fortunate than me.

Readers, what advice do you have?

Read an update to this letter. 

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board member’s husband should not attend an event for children, boss calls people names, and more

by Alison Green on January 19, 2023

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Our board member’s husband should not attend an event for children

I work for an advocacy nonprofit and we are in a delicate situation with the spouse of a board member and organization co-founder, Beth.

A few months ago, Beth’s husband, Tom, was arrested on possession of child pornography charges. In the statement released by law enforcement, they stated that there were currently no accusations or evidence to suggest that Tom had physically abused children. At the time, we received an anonymous message about the charges through our contact page, so we removed some incidental photographs of Tom from our website, but no further action was taken because he is otherwise uninvolved with the organization.

Now we are in the process of planning our annual family conference and reached out to board members to see who was planning to attend. All our board members or their children are members of the interest group we serve, so they and their families are highly encouraged to attend the conference. However, we were surprised that Beth’s RSVP included her husband, given his current legal situation. Our conference is explicitly aimed at family participation and includes a large number of children. Most of us feel uncomfortable having him attend but are unsure what our legal and ethical responsibilities are regarding someone who has not yet been convicted of a crime. Our main priority is to protect families and their trust in our organization, but Beth is a valued member of our organization and we don’t want to alienate her and her children during a difficult time any more than necessary. There is no point that Tom would be alone or unsupervised with children other than his own and his attendance would be as a participant, not as a leader or organization representative, but his attendance doesn’t sit well with me. Our team is very small and inexperienced at nonprofit management and we don’t have an HR or legal department. What are our responsibilities in this situation and how do we best guide this conversation with Beth?

Beth is putting the organization she co-founded in a position she shouldn’t be putting it in! You’re right to think this is a huge problem.

However, this shouldn’t be your problem to solve because this is very much a board thing to handle. Talk to whichever member of the board you most trust to handle this well, explain your concerns, and ask them to intervene. This is very much board stuff, they’re the ones who have standing to address it, and the other board members should hopefully realize that their responsibilities as stewards of the organization mean they cannot knowingly allow someone who is currently facing charges for child sexual abuse imagery to attend a conference of families and children. They are the ones best positioned to talk to Beth about it, and the staff should ask them to.

2. Can I ask coworkers not to stare over my shoulder when I’m fixing their computer?

I’m a teacher, as well as the unofficial “tech guy” for my school. The official tech people are in another building, so people tend to ask me for help with computer issues before submitting a work order. I love this role, and I can confidently say I can solve just about any basic computer issue, which really takes the pressure off the official IT guys (my first year here a teacher demanded they stop installing a computer lab in another school so they could look at her desktop, which turned out not to be plugged in).

The problem is that teachers often feel they have to stand right there with me, staring over my shoulder as I work. This makes me nervous, as I feel like I’m performing for an audience. I’ve had no actual technical training so a lot of what I do is trial and error and googling, and I feel like I appear incompetent when I can’t find the solution in five minutes. I’ve tried things like “feel free to work on something else” or “this may take a while, I’ll let you know when I’m done,” but that doesn’t always work. They stand there behind me. Staring. Is there a polite way to tell someone to buzz off while I figure out why their electronic whiteboard won’t connect to their laptop?

Yes! A few options, depending on what works for you:

* “I can never work with someone standing right there — give me some space and I’ll see what I can do!”
* “I can’t work with an audience, but I’ll let you know when I’m done.”
* “I have a pretty big personal space bubble! Can I move you over there?”
* “Having you standing over me makes me nervous! Go get a coffee or something and I’ll let you know when it’s fixed.”
* “This is going to be trial and error and I’ll be self-conscious with you standing there! Give me about X minutes on my own here and then come back and I should have it fixed.”

3. How to get feedback as a manager

I’m a manager with a couple of years of supervisory experience. My team generally seems to like my supervision and were very excited to have me back after a recent maternity leave; and my supervisor has told me I’m exactly the right support for a couple of my team members. One of my employees tells me regularly that he appreciates my feedback and I always am insightful about what he needs to work on.

I regularly ask my team for feedback about my supervision and do my best to integrate that feedback into my interactions, but I also know that due to power dynamics it is uncommon for people to give their bosses really hard feedback. I’m sure there are things about me as a supervisor that my team would like to change because that’s true of just about everyone, even when they really like their boss! How do I get real feedback from my team?

The biggest thing is to create a culture where people will feel safe delivering messages that might be hard to hear, or even unpleasant to hear. You do that by demonstrating repeatedly over a sustained period of time that you genuinely welcome and even encourage dissent, you don’t shoot the messenger, you own your mistakes and you acknowledge when you’re wrong, course-correct when needed, and don’t favor the people who rarely criticize you or your ideas. (Here’s more on that.)

Once you have that culture — and it takes a while to build — you can try explicitly drawing people out with questions that are more targeted than just “how am I doing?” For example: “What’s one change I could make that would improve your quality of life or make your job easier?” … “What’s one thing you’d like me to keep doing and one thing you’d like me to experiment with changing?” … “What are some ways I can make you feel more appreciated/supported/empowered in your job?”

Even so, though, there will be some people who will still never give you truly candid feedback, no matter what you do. As a manager, you’ve got to assume there’s stuff you’re not hearing — and make sure you’re also doing your own reflections on how things are going.

Read an update to this letter. 

4. My manager yells and calls people names

My manager yells at employees with the door open, using profanity to get his point across. It always seems to happen when things don’t go his way. He also talks with various managers again with his door open or in their adjoining hallway about politics, and call those who don’t view his politics the same, stupid or just idiots. This even trickles into meetings we have as a team. I just need to know if this is harassment?

It’s not harassment in the legal sense of the word. To be illegal, harassment needs to be based on your race, sex (including pregnancy, sexual orientation, or gender identity), religion, national origin, age if you’re 40 and up, disability, or genetic information (including family medical history).

However, it’s certainly harassment in the colloquial, non-legal sense of the word. Your boss sounds abusive. Any chance there’s someone above him who would care if it’s brought to their attention?

Related:
my boss yells and is abusive

5. Do recruiters and/or hiring managers have read receipts on their emails?

It recently occurred to me that applicant tracking systems probably collect analytics, and that might include whether someone has opened an email. Are recruiters looking at whether someone has opened their emails? What about hiring managers?

No sane recruiter or hiring manager is paying attention to whether someone has opened an email (because of the amount of time it would take, because those trackers aren’t reliably accurate and some mail programs block that tracking, and because it’s just not a priority with everything else that matters in hiring).

Related:
should you use return receipts on emails to hiring managers?

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