Ask a Manager

my employee’s colleagues don’t like him

by Alison Green on November 2, 2022

A reader writes:

I was manage a small IT department. My reports have been with the company for several years and are extremely knowledgeable. Unfortunately, one of them has much less respect from many other employees. We’ll call him Josh and the other tech Steven.

I was looking into an issue with a user who mentioned that the problem had been ongoing for a while, saying “Steven looked at it and Josh looked at it. Josh doesn’t really count though.” Yesterday I was speaking to another user about a problem Josh might be familiar with and told them he was out for a few days, to which they responded, “Oh good.” They apologized a few seconds later, but it’s pretty clear that while I know Josh is technically competent, other employees of the company don’t like or respect him.

From what I can tell, it seems to be a personality conflict. Josh isn’t the best with people and can come across as condescending and as if he’s being inconvenienced by having to help them. At least one person was embarrassed that Josh implied (in front of everyone present) that the problem they needed him to fix was “stupid.” I can tell that Josh gets frustrated by people not being as knowledgeable as he expects them to be. I think it’s a problem all IT workers have to some degree, but the problem here is that his inside thoughts come out a little too much.

What do I do, as a manager who wants to defend and take care of my employees?

I answer this question over at Inc. today, where I’m revisiting letters that have been buried in the archives here from years ago (and sometimes updating/expanding my answers to them). You can read it here.

my employee refuses to do her job and leads me in circles about why she won’t

by Alison Green on November 2, 2022

A reader writes:

I have a direct report (let’s call her Bartleby) who has been underperforming for a while, in particular by not doing enough work that can be charged to our internal customers.

This might seem like an easy problem to call out and manage, but Bartleby and I have had communication problems since I took this position about five years ago, and they’ve only gotten worse. When she’s doing work that she feels is solidly in her preferred domain, she does well. If asked to work on something slightly different (but still well within her skillset and job description) in order to get more chargeable time, she becomes resistant. This manifests in conversations that run something like this (condensed to a few lines, when her actual responses are often five-minute monologues or longer):

Me: Please work with Marge on this chargeable task.
B: Well, I don’t really feel comfortable with that.
Me: Why?
B: You provide so much more support to Marge and the others in the group and I feel uncomfortable doing this work knowing that I won’t have your support.
Me: What do you mean by support here?
B: You won’t back me up if things go wrong.
Me: I will back you up, as I have in the past. Please work with Marge on this.
B: I don’t feel comfortable with that because when Bill was a manager, he trained Marge on it, but not me.
Me: He trained me as well before he left, and I’m happy to train you on it in turn.
B: The difference is that Bill supported me, and you don’t.
Me: As I said, I’m happy to support you as needed.
B: I don’t feel comfortable that you will.
Me: So, you’re refusing to have me train you so you can do this task?
B: I never said that! Don’t accuse me of refusing to do work!
Me: So, you’ll work with Marge on this?
B: I don’t feel comfortable doing that without more support.

This continues until I just terminate the conversation, often after spending half an hour or more talking in circles like this. I then receive long, rambling emails that misrepresent what was said and complain that I won’t take the time to talk to her about things. I spend more time managing her than I do the other half-dozen (highly motivated and self-directed) people in my group put together!

I have really tried to think about what she means by “support,” and I have come up blank. I have asked for specifics and have gotten many vague words in response, but nothing actionable beyond the concern that that she’ll be blamed if things go wrong. If there are any customer questions or concerns about what we provide them, I will readily step in to deal with them; no blame ever accrues to her (or even to me, really) in the rare case of problems. When I try to offer her new projects or training, I get what I described above. Given how often Bartleby invokes the past manger, Bill, and how I don’t do things the way he did, I feel like the nucleus of her complaints about me often amount to, “You aren’t Bill.” That is certainly true, but it’s also not something I can fix, and there are good reasons I do things differently. (For one thing, I was specifically hired because I would spend more time on developing new work and less time on close, daily management of the activities of each group member than he did.) With the rest of the group, my management style seems to work well. I hardly need to mention a task before they are ready to take it on, and if they need training or help, they both ask for and receive it with complete grace.

I have brought the matter to my manager (with whom I have a great relationship, and who has given me high marks for performance and good advice when needed), and we have set some specific goals for her regarding the amount of work that she charges; if she doesn’t show progress towards these goals, we’ll put her on a formal PIP and move towards termination if things don’t improve.

I would like to avoid things getting to that point. First, she does have valuable technical expertise, and when she’s working on something where she feels comfortable, she does very good work. Second, I dread going through the (long, involved) termination process with her, since I know it will involve all sorts of similar evasions, misrepresentations, and accusations of favoritism. It will be exhausting, and while I’ll do it if needed, to borrow a quote, “I would prefer not to.”

So, is there a way I can change the direction things are going here, or is my only good option to hold the course and brace myself for the consequences?

Hold the course and brace for the consequences. Whatever’s going on with Bartleby, it sounds like it’s coming from her and not you.

And it sounds like you’ve made good faith efforts! You’ve asked what kind of support she wants and feels she’s not getting. You’ve asked for specifics. You’ve reflected privately. And you’re not getting anywhere. If there’s something specific she wants from you, she needs to tell you.

The one thing you can — and should — try that you haven’t already is to let her know how serious a problem this is and what is going to happen if she doesn’t change what she’s doing. The PIP is the formal way of doing that, but you can do a less formal version of that conversation first.

For example: “We have talked many times about your resistance to talking on projects like X and Y. I need to be clear with you that this has become a serious performance issue and if we can’t solve it, the next step will be a formal performance improvement plan, which would end with you being fired if this doesn’t change. I don’t want to see that happen, so I want to be very clear about what needs to change to avoid that. Specifically, when I assign you a task, I need you to either do the task or, if you don’t feel you can, give me specifics on exactly what you need from me that will allow you to do it. Simply not doing the tasks is not an option. If you have specific, concrete things you need from me to make that possible, I need you to name those. You cannot continue to resist the work without specifying exactly what support you are looking for. If you do continue that, we will need to start the PIP process.”

Then, after that conversation, if she’s resistant to another project in the same way you described in your letter, you’d handle the conversation more like this:

You: Please work with Marge on this chargeable task.
B: Well, I don’t really feel comfortable with that.
You: What specific actions do you need me to take to support you on this task?
B: I’m worried you won’t back me up if things go wrong.
You: I will indeed back you up, as I have in the past. I understand you’re worried about that, but regardless I do need you to begin this assignment now.
B: I don’t feel comfortable with that because when Bill was a manager, he trained Marge on it, but not me.
You: I’m happy to train you on it before you begin. But this is what we talked about earlier — I need you to take on projects like this one without pushing back. I’ve heard your concerns, I’m open to any specific requests for concrete things you need, I can give you more training if you need it, but meanwhile I need you to get started on this today.
B: I don’t feel comfortable.
You: Projects like this are a required part of your job. They’re not optional. If you don’t want the job knowing tasks like this are part of it, that’s a conversation we can have. But this is indeed part of your job and I need you to start on it today.

And if you have to have more than one conversation like this after the big-picture “we’re heading to a PIP” conversation, don’t delay any longer — get started on the PIP process ASAP. If your organization allows it, that PIP should be pretty short — think weeks, not months (as long as that’s enough time for these projects to come up and for you to see change or lack of change). Don’t let it drag out.

I’d also recommend that you go into these conversations with Bartleby assuming that it’s very likely this will end with needing to fire her. It sounds like you’ve been dealing with her as if she’s a rational person who’s so close to doing a good job if only she can fix this one little thing … and that’s leading you to indulge in these lengthy circular discussions more than you should. It is okay to short-circuit these discussions with “this is what we talked about, and I need you to do this today.” Don’t give her all this space to play out … whatever this is that she’s playing out.

For the record, it’s possible that Bartleby genuinely does feel unsupported and might have legitimate reasons for that! She might have worked with unsupportive managers in the past, or been penalized harshly for mistakes, or who knows what. That’s why it’s important for you to have looked back at your own history with her and to have heard her out. But taking you at your word that you’ve done that and she never gets blamed if something goes wrong, there’s a limit on what you can do to accommodate her fears. At this point whatever she’s dealing with has become disruptive and is getting in the way of work getting done. Lay out the changes you need in how she’s approaching projects, and then hold her to that and decline to get into these endless quagmires every time.

But yeah, assume this is going to end with needing to part ways.

Read an update to this letter.

coworker brings her baby to every meeting, manager is shocked no one sent a thank-you note for our raises, and more

by Alison Green on November 2, 2022

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My coworker brings her baby to every meeting

One of my colleagues had a baby about 6 months ago. She was gone on maternity leave for 4+ months. She’s now back and brings her baby to every meeting. Our meetings are all video meetings, and she’s holding her baby on her lap and using her baby’s hands to “wave” at people in the meetings.

Her manager is in most of the meetings and (obviously?) doesn’t have a problem with it, since this has been going on for a number of weeks. This person is a peer to me — I am not their manager — although I am more senior than they are. They do have another child, who is in daycare (she has mentioned this to me in the past).

Our company has decent maternity leave benefits and is relatively pro-parent as far as providing flexibility. We all work remotely. It feels uncomfortable to have a baby present on our work calls — and makes it hard to give any difficult feedback to this coworker, since they’re holding their tiny child. FWIW, I’m also a woman, love babies generally, and want to be supportive of parents! I’m just uncomfortable with them in the workplace as a pattern. Should I address it? Mention it to her manager? Let it go, and forge on if I have tough feedback, even while staring at cute chubby baby cheeks?

Most companies don’t want people caring for young kids at the same time as they’re working, because it’s impossible to do both well at the same time … but the child care shortage from the pandemic has meant employers have had to be more flexible about this. Most parents don’t want to do both at once either — although there are exceptions to that — and it’s important to know that what you’re seeing may be a result of child care shortages. That’s true even though your coworker’s older kid is in daycare; there may not be another open slot.

Is the baby distracting to your coworker, or to you? If the baby seems distracting to your coworker, like she’s focusing on the baby and not on what’s being said in the meeting, that’s a legitimate issue to mention either to her or to her manager. Or if the baby is distracting because she’s making a lot of noise while people are trying to talk, that’s legitimate to mention as well. But if it’s just that the presence of a baby, even a quiet one, makes you feel like you can’t have a normal work conversation, I’d say that’s something to work on ignoring on your end. I agree it’s not ideal, but there’s a decent chance that your coworker is stuck in a not-ideal situation and this is the solution that makes working possible. If it makes working less possible for her colleagues, that’s something you’ve got raise … but otherwise try to push through it.

2. Manager is shocked that no one has sent a thank-you note for their raise

I overheard a conversation between two supervisors in our office (I have a cubicle, they were in the conference room opposite me, the door was half-open, and they’re both loud talkers). A mentioned to B that she “couldn’t believe” no one had sent a thank-you note after our yearly salary increases last month, and the conversation moved to general rudeness, manners, etc. Then my phone rang and I missed the rest of the conversation.

We’re a smallish office in a large organization and raises are determined at the organization level. I believe my momma raised me right but I’ve never sent a thank-you note for a raise, and I’ve been working in office settings for more than 30 years. Have I been wrong this whole time? And if so, who gets the note? The managing partners who set the increases or the low-level supervisor who checks the yes/no box?

No, your supervisors are being ridiculous. Thank-you notes for raises are not an expected thing. Sometimes someone sends one, but they’re certainly not standard protocol and it’s not the slightest bit surprising or outrageous that A hasn’t received one.

When you are working for money, the money is not a gift. It’s payment for your labor. They didn’t give you a raise as a favor; it’s a business decision because they want to retain you.

It is true that when a manager really goes to bat for you to get you something above and beyond the norm, it makes sense to acknowledge that … but even then there’s no requirement that it be in note form. A verbal “thanks so much for advocating for this” is enough.

3. Candidate asked for feedback in the interview

I recently had an encounter during an interview that caught me a bit off-guard. I was one of two people conducting a technical interview for an intern, and at the end of the interview he asked very politely if we could give him any feedback on whether there was anything about his interviewing skills he could improve on.

With the way my company sets up interviews, I wouldn’t have any way to contact him afterwards or personalize a rejection with the requested feedback. I decided to go for it in the moment and said something along the lines of, “It’s really great to talk through your test cases the way you did, that lets us see how you think and also gives us an opportunity to nudge you back on track if you’re going in the wrong direction. One thing to work on might be to ask more clarifying questions if something seems unclear. It’s also totally fine to take a minute and breathe and try to wrap your head around a question if you need to, don’t feel pressured to start answering immediately.” My intention was to just give advice about interviewing itself and how to communicate effectively in this setting, but avoid saying anything about his actual code or technical performance.

Do you think it’s okay to give that sort of feedback/advice on the spot? It occurred to me afterwards that giving positive feedback to someone might lead them to think they definitely got the job. But technical interviews are such a stressful, challenging thing to navigate— when given the opportunity to give some help to someone with no experience, I really want to take it! What’s your opinion?

What you said was great! It shouldn’t lead him to think he got the job (or that he didn’t get the job, for that matter). It also would have been fine to get more specific about his technical performance too if you wanted to. Sometimes that can lead to a collaborative sort of conversation where you get to see how the person takes feedback and incorporates it into their thinking, which can be really useful in your evaluation (as well as hopefully being useful to them). Sometimes there are reasons not to do that — for example, some interviewers like to digest their thoughts first rather than giving feedback on the spot — but there’s no blanket rule that you should never do it.

4. I withdrew from a hiring process but they still want to meet, and I don’t want to

I recently made it to the second and final stage of a role which would launch a career change I was really keen for, but attempting to do the pre-interview task prompted some soul searching. The task triggered some stuff for me and clarified that moving to this career would be a huge risk for my mental health. This decision is less melodramatic than it sounds, but the timing of my realization that this path is wrong for me is unfortunate. It turns out the organization isn’t a great fit either, for other reasons.

I withdrew my application yesterday with an apology but no explanation, and the hiring manager has since emailed me twice saying how much they want to meet and asking if I might change my mind. I won’t! How do I say “it’s not you, it’s me” to a (too?) enthusiastic organization, without getting personal or prompting a negotiation?

“I’m flattered by your interest, but it’s not the right move for me right now. Best of luck filling the role!”

That’s it. You don’t need to get into your reasons why; just stick with a polite, firm no.

5. My new job hasn’t paid me since I started

I started a new part-time job with a large (1,000+ employees) nonprofit in early September. There were red flags from the get-go, and I’m fairly certain I will leave this role soon.

But the biggest red flag so far? I have not been paid even once and I’m seven weeks into the job. The organization is on two-week pay cycles, so I have failed to receive pay for three pay periods and am still unable to upload hours into their system for the fourth pay period since I started.

For context, the entire onboarding was messy and confusing, and no one from HR nor my direct supervisor ever told me how employees are expected to submit hours or on what schedule. When I emailed my supervisor about this two weeks into the job, she didn’t reply. Payroll only invited me to create an account in their employee management system after I had been employed for over a month.

I have some patience for bumps in the road in a new job, but the bare minimum I expect from an employer is to be paid on time for my work.

Friends have cautioned me not to quit until I see paychecks appearing in my bank account. Do you agree that it’s worth sticking it out until this issue is resolved? Any pointers for pushing the organization to treat this with urgency?

I assume your friends are worried that if you quit, you’ll never get paid … but employers are required by both federal and state law to pay you for your work even if you quit. Their legal obligations will be the same whether you stay longer or quit now. You don’t need to keep working (for free so far!) in order to get them to follow the law.

If you would stay longer if your missing pay showed up tomorrow, you could say this: “I have not been paid in seven weeks. State law requires that I be paid within X weeks of doing the work, and right now we’re in violation of that. I cannot continue to work without being paid, and the organization is breaking the law every day this continues. What can I do to get my missing paychecks issued today?” (To fill in the X, google your state name and “paycheck laws.”) Say this to your boss, to HR, and to payroll — all three avenues. Email, but don’t just email — follow up with phone calls immediately. Treat it as urgent, because it is.

But if you’d prefer to quit and not wait, you can quit and file a wage claim with your state department of labor for the missing money. (Make sure you keep all the documentation of your length of employment that you can find, to make that as easy as possible.)

Either way, they’re legally obligated to pay you for all the days you’ve worked.

my interviewer sent me an email saying my scars are triggering

by Alison Green on November 1, 2022

A reader writes:

I’ve been casually job searching for a few months and had an interview last week. The job was for a logistics specialist at a shipping company. The woman who interviewed me, Marcia, seemed distracted the entire interview, shuffling papers and mumbling her questions. I knew pretty quickly I wouldn’t be taking the position, based both on her description of the job (which was quite different from the online posting) and the general feel in the office. At the end of the interview, I thanked her for her time and consideration and offered my hand to shake. She looked at it for a long moment, then didn’t take it and simply nodded her farewell. I got home, emailed a very polite “thank you, but this position isn’t for me” note, and considered it done.

Well, today I got an email from Marcia that was beyond strange. At first, I figured I’d just think of it as proof this job wasn’t for me, but now I’m wondering if I should reach out to someone else at the company to alert them. The email read:

“I realize this is highly irregular, but I felt it would be a grave misstep on my part not to reach out to you. During your interview, I noticed the scars on your arm and wanted you to know that whatever pain you are feeling is temporary. I am certain there are people who love you and would miss you. Please find love for yourself and get the help you clearly need. If I could offer you some additional advice, I fear those scars will be detrimental to you obtaining any meaningful employment. They are highly triggering, and you should seek permanent ways to disguise them. Good luck, and God bless.” Marcia then attached two documents — a brochure for suicide prevention, and one for a church-run support group.

Not that it matters AT ALL, but the scars are from a burn I got while baking during the pandemic. I was teaching myself to make fruit tarts. Did you know the bottom of tart pans pop up, so you don’t have to break the pastry during removal? My forearm and I learned that the hard way. In my opinion, they don’t particularly look like self-harm scars, more like long scratches that are still healing. Almost like you’d get from a cat.

I was prepared to just consider this an experience to laugh about and go about my life. But I’m concerned that Marcia might be offering other advice that is equally problematic to other job candidates, or her staff. Should I reach out to someone else at the company? Or just let this be? It’s possible the fact I think this is way over the line and pretty offensive is skewing my opinion of this. Thoughts?

This is a wild overstep from Marcia and you should tell her company about it.

First, as your situation shows so well, it is very possible for scars to be from all sorts of things, not just self-harm. It is a huge overstep for a virtual stranger to assume they know anything about what scars indicate.

And it’s even less a stranger’s business if the scars are from self-harm. That’s a deeply personal and private thing that no stranger should be commenting on. (Ever, but especially someone like Marcia who clearly doesn’t understand the first thing about it, since it’s very common for cutting not to be linked to suicidal ideation at all.)

Also, “they are highly triggering, and you should seek permanent ways to disguise them” is a Very Bad thing for a hiring manager to say to a job candidate. She put in writing that she believes you have a disability and you should hide it. That’s legal liability for her company.

And then there’s the church-run support group she feels you should attend.

And she’s willing to say all of this to a job candidate, someone she barely knows. Imagine what she’s saying to people who work for her.

I don’t doubt that Marcia felt she was acting from a place of concern and compassion, but unfortunately her actions were invasive, inappropriate, and uncompassionate.

She needs better training and more oversight.

So yes, please do forward her email to her company. If they have any sense at all, they’ll want to know she did this, explain to her why she can’t, and take a closer look at what else she might be doing.

Read an update to this letter.

my manager insists on unreasonable deadlines for my projects

by Alison Green on November 1, 2022

A reader writes:

My manager regularly hands me projects that have unreasonable deadlines. I’ve tried to push back or offer alternatives, but the conversations usually go like this:

Manager: “We need to do an updated training for the Blue team. Can you do an overhaul of the materials and present it?”

Me: “Sure. It will take me some time, but I can do that. When does it need to be ready?”

Manager: “Great! We have the meeting set up for the end of next week.”

Me: “Wow. That’s an aggressive timetable because I’ll need to do X, Y, and Z to get it created. Plus I have meetings 1-4 this week and all the other things I’m working on. Can we push the date out?”

Manager: “No. Super Big Boss wants it then. You can table the other things and just do this next week.”

Me: “I don’t think that’s enough time. You know how things always come up that we’re not planning for.”

Manager: “I’ll make sure that doesn’t happen. You’ll be fine. I know you can do it!”

Me: “Could we do it in stages? Maybe X next week and then Y could be the following week to give me more time? I can get the smaller part done next week for sure.”

Manager: “Nope. It has to be everything. We have the whole team scheduled to start the project that following week, and they already have bookings. You’re so good that I know you’ll be able to get it done.”

And she’s right, I have done it, several times and done it well. But I HATE it and the timeframes are getting smaller and smaller. It’s to the point that my work is no longer great and/or it’s incomplete, and sometimes I’m not the one delivering the final product, so the unfinished product is impacting other people. When it is me responsible for the delivery, I’m frequently going into situations wholly unprepared. Even when it is something I can pull off, I lose sleep stressing about it getting done and end up working overtime (I log my hours, so my boss knows I clocked back from 7-10 pm multiple days in a week).

She knows I don’t like doing it, but I think I need to be more firm about communicating my obstacles. Or maybe I need to say no (but we’re a small team, so I know my only other coworker will get stuck with it)? Or just spectacularly fail once? As much as I hate that idea, I think my reputation could weather the hit as long as it’s something fairly low stakes. How do I say to her, “There’s no way that can happen in the timeframe you’ve given,” in a way she’ll understand?

Yeah, you’re giving her a soft no, expecting her to respect it, and she’s barreling right through it.

It makes sense that you’ve tried approaching it that way. Most of us aren’t socialized to say to our bosses, “No, I will not do that” or “No, that cannot be done.” We’re trained from the time we start working to look for ways to say yes or — when that’s impossible — to use softer pushback and expect our bosses to pick up on it. And good bosses do.

The problem is that your boss is ignoring what you’re saying. She hears your concerns and doesn’t care, and at this point she’s learned from experience that if she pushes you, you’ll find a way to get it done. Maybe it won’t be perfect, but you’ll get it finished. If she cares about “done” more than she cares about “perfect,” this is working out well for her! She runs roughshod over your objections, you feel you have no choice but to give in, and she gets what she wants.

And for the record, it’s possible that the work doesn’t need to be perfect. It’s possible that the work you consider shoddy is actually good enough for what the situation demands. Sometimes speed is more important than quality, and maybe when she’s telling you to rush through it, she’s saying she’s fine with cutting corners. It’s worth talking that through with her, because you might have different ideas about how much effort is required.

But assuming that’s not the case, or if it is the case but it still doesn’t solve the time crunch, you’ll need to take a firmer approach when your boss comes to you with an unrealistic deadline. Right now you’re asking, “Could we change the deadline?” and when she says no, you give in. What if you instead moved to a firmer “it’s not possible” framework? After all, right now what makes it possible is your willingness to lose sleep and work lots of extra hours. What if you took those things off the table? Then the conversation might sound more like this:

Manager: “We need to do an updated training for the Blue team. Can you do an overhaul of the materials and present it?”

Me: “Sure. The earliest I could get it done would be three weeks from now, because I’ll need to do X, Y, and Z to get it created. That would also mean putting projects 1 and 2 on hold until next month.”

Manager: “No, Super Big Boss wants it sooner.”

Me: “It’s a matter of X hours of work total, so it’s not possible for it to be ready next week. If it has to be ready by then, we’d need to bring in someone else to do a lot of it.”

Manager: “You’ll be fine. I know you can do it!”

Me: “No, there’s no way to do that. In the past when they’ve given us deadlines like this, I’ve made it work by logging extra hours and losing sleep, and that’s not something I am able to do again.”

To do this, it might help to imagine the tone and wording you’d use if she were proposing something that was truly and obviously impossible — even if you worked 24/7, it still wouldn’t get done. To use an intentionally extreme example, if she said you needed to be 3,000 miles away one hour from now, you’d hold firm on saying it couldn’t happen, right? You need the same mental framework here. You’re not willing to sacrifice your nights and your mental health anymore, so some things are simply not possible.

It also makes sense to talk with your boss about the pattern before another one of these assignments happens. Sit down with her and say, “Recently you’ve been giving me rush projects with deadlines that are really difficult to meet, like X and Y. The only way I’ve been able to do it has been by working late every night and not sleeping. For the sake of my health, I’m not able to continue doing that. I want to get aligned with you on what to do when we’re asked to complete things in an unrealistic amount of time.”

You also might talk with your co-worker — the one you’re worried will get stuck with projects you refuse — to let her know you’ll be setting firmer boundaries and encourage her to do the same. If you’re both saying no as a united front, you might have more luck getting through to your boss.

I don’t recommend “just spectacularly failing” in order to make your point unless you absolutely have to, since there’s a lot of risk that you’ll just be blamed for it. But if none of the above works, it might be all that you’re left with. In that case, you should explicitly warn your boss ahead of time — as in, “I need to be clear that I cannot commit to that deadline. I will do my best to get as much done by then as I can, but I do not think the whole thing can be completed then.” And then remind her again as the deadline is approaching — “I know they wanted X by Friday but, like we talked about, it’s not looking likely. I’ve worked on it solidly all week but am only about halfway through and will need at least another week to finish.” By keeping your boss in the loop, she won’t be able to say you’re blindsiding her when you miss the deadline. (And while this is going on, resist the temptation to knock yourself out to finish in time. Work steadily, but work your normal hours and don’t stress about doing more.)

If your boss objects to this approach, then the next step is for the two of you to have a conversation about what the role really requires; if your boss thinks it should require long and sleepless nights, let’s get her to say that out loud so you know what you’re dealing with … but hopefully it won’t come to that.

Originally published at New York Magazine.

how do I care about work when my life is falling apart … and other mental health questions

by Alison Green on November 1, 2022

I’ve long been a fan of the work of clinical psychologist Andrea Bonior, the best-selling author of Detox Your Thoughts and regular contributor to CNN, NPR, the Washington Post, and the New York Times. Her new podcast, Baggage Check: Mental Health Talk and Advice, launches today.

Andrea agreed to stop by and help answers some letters. (She did two on her own and we tackled the last one jointly.) Here we go…

1. How can I support my partner after his job loss?

My partner lost his job in May. He had been employed by one of the companies that had very public large-scale layoffs in the spring. Unfortunately, here we are in months later and his job search is still ongoing. He’s formed an LLC and is doing outreach for consulting services, filed for unemployment benefits, and is doing odd jobs to bring in some extra funds. He received one offer that was a substantial pay cut from what he had been earning, so he turned it down. He’s generated some interest in his resume and had a number of interviews. But each subsequent rejection seems to affect him more and more, regardless of the specific job or what stage of the process he got to. I’m at a loss for how to support him. I’ve tried to be a sympathetic ear, offer suggestions on things like places to apply/tweaking answers to common interview questions/etc, ask him outright what I can do, but I feel like it falls on deaf ears. Do you have any advice?

Andrea: I am truly sorry to hear this. The struggle of sudden job loss can be totally destabilizing, not just for the person who lost the job, but also for those who love them. And so my first concern is to make sure that you’re keeping an eye on your own mental health as well. It’s very easy to get pulled under when supporting someone else through challenging times, and the more preoccupied you are with the helplessness of your partner’s situation, the harder it is to remember to take care of yourself and pay attention to your own needs. You deserve support, too!

Now, communication is important in every relationship, but you are at a crossroads where it’s more crucial than ever, because without functional communication you risk increasing disconnection, which won’t help either of you get through this time. With that in mind, it strikes me that he might have a lot to say about what he needs, and what he doesn’t. No two partners are alike in terms of how they may best feel supported during a job search. Some might want line-by-line editing of their cover letter, whereas others just want their partner to assist in the mental escape of snuggling up with a documentary about the Donkey Kong World Championship. What has he said about what might help him feel best? If you haven’t yet asked, that should be next on your list.

If he’s still a pretty closed book, you might “notice out loud”—in a caring and nonjudgmental way—that things seem to be getting more stressful for him, rather than less. It’s not an accusation but rather just a gentle observation from someone who loves him, as an invitation to further discussion– if he is willing. If that’s the case, then you could point out that he seems to be getting closer and closer to finding a job by all measures, and yet he seems to be getting more discouraged. Sometimes just a simple pep talk can cause a perspective shift: like the fact that every step forward, even the ones that don’t seem to pay off immediately, still gets him closer to an eventual offer.

But I also think it’s important that we redefine expectations here. Just like you cannot directly fix this for him – you’re not a hiring manager– you also shouldn’t underestimate the day-to-day impact of what you’ve been doing already, simply in your role as a partner. Often it really is the little things like the brief moments of physical affection, the encouraging texts, the small kindnesses, or the shared laughs that provide the most meaningful support in frustrating, uncertain times. The underlying foundation of your relationship– the care, empathy, and love you show right now– is even more important than any specifics you might have to offer as an advisor or strategist. In fact, that might be why your advice feels like it is falling on deaf ears. Perhaps your role is getting too confusing, and he’ll get more from you as partner than career coach. After all, he’s already taking a lot of the steps he’s supposed to, to find the next job.

Now, by all means, if you feel that he is going about this search in a fundamentally dysfunctional way, like self-sabotaging or selling himself short, then you can gently let him know (though you can’t “fix” that if he doesn’t want to heed it). Similarly, if you are carrying feelings of resentment, it’s important that you be honest with yourself and reckon with how those might be affecting your behavior. The more insight you have into your own feelings, the easier it is to not let them cloud your actions as you decide how to best be there for him. But you also are being there for him in many ways already—and that might mean far more than you realize.

Read an update to this letter.

2. How do I care about work when my personal life is falling apart?

I have been at my company for a very long time (18 years) and am in senior management. My marriage is falling apart right now, and I just cannot bring myself to care about work. Or rather, sometimes it is a welcome distraction, but in general I just don’t have any energy or investment in doing more than the basics. I feel bad when people bring me exciting new ideas for the future, and my internal response is completely dismissive/exhausted. I am sure that at some point I’ll get less miserable, and presumably will be able to re-engage with work goals and enthusiasm at that point, but what advice do you have for me about how to weather this tough period right now?

Andrea: My heart goes out to you for what’s happening in your marriage. And also for how tough you seem to be on yourself—which only makes tough periods tougher.

People tend to think of work-life balance as some optimal, constant equilibrium that pays significant attention to both work and life at any given period. In truth, work-life balance is better looked at over the course of the long-term. It involves the willingness to understand that sometimes, life needs to take precedence whether we want it to or not, and balance simply can’t be found that month—or group of months– at all. In the grand scheme of things, it can eventually even out, and there’ll be plenty of times when you can hit the gas on the job again.
So, weathering this tough period begins with forgiving yourself for not being the optimal worker for a while. I promise you: that is okay. You are a whole person who needs to attend to a major part of your life right now that simply doesn’t involve memos or meetings. You’ve devoted nearly two decades of your life to this company, and given that you are in senior management, you’ve likely excelled in a lot of ways, rewarding your organization with quite a lot of value. But the fact that you’ve excelled in the past shouldn’t punish you now, nor does it disqualify you from being human. Work is only part of who you are, and sometimes the basics are enough. There are times in life when “productivity” consists of making sure that you get up in the morning and take care of your emotional and physical health, and simply check enough boxes to keep from getting fired (yup, I said it).

So, autopilot was made for situations like this. What are the must-do’s each day? Maybe make one list for the morning and one list for the afternoon. Have an additional running list of things that aren’t priorities but might be tackled if you have a bit more energy or are up for more distraction any given day. Develop scripts that help you go through the motions with less effort—like conveying enthusiasm for a good idea while also implying that now is not the time for a full deep dive, or gracefully ending interminably useless meetings that are going fifteen minutes over when you really need some deep breathing and relaxing music instead. And when you do feel a professional spark here and there, notice it and follow it, doing more of whatever that thing is, and less of what feels excruciating.

The truth is, we all have finite amounts of emotional energy; it’s simple math. If you were to burn yourself out giving too much to work right now, that would only set you up to do even lower-quality work in the future. Your energy should go to nourishing yourself as you endure what is happening at home and get on a path to healing (whatever that may look like). Forgive me, but there’s a sports metaphor here somewhere: think of yourself as a valuable athlete on the team, but one who has suffered a mild injury. You can still go to practice, attend team meetings, and keep your roster spot. But you shouldn’t be forcing yourself to play at your usual intensity, or you’ll just hurt yourself further. And in the long run, that would hurt your team even more as well.

3. My employee doesn’t regulate her reactions at work

I have an employee who has struggled for the entire time she’s been employed at our organization (about a year; I did not hire her but took over managing the team about three months into her tenure).

Her work usually meets expectations but she’s had some misses. When she does, I spend 10 times as long dealing with her reaction to the mistake than actually helping her fix the mistake. She says she struggles with anxiety and imposter syndrome. It results in defensiveness, excuses, arguments, and lack of accountability over even small errors.

We had the “come-to-Jesus” talk recently about how this cannot continue and she must learn better coping methods. She’s admitted she is creating these issues and needs to change, but doesn’t know how and is terrified she can’t handle it. I want to see her succeed but I think it’s out of my hands at this point. How can I deal with an employee who wants to improve but maybe just … can’t?

Alison: Andrea, I’m interested in hearing your take on this! Generally my advice would be that the manager should name what she’s seeing, explain the impact, name what she needs to see instead, and then hold the employee to that like she would any other expectation. But it sounds like she’s started that process and the employee agrees that it’s a problem and wants to change but doesn’t know how to do that. That’s different from someone who just stays defensive and argumentative when you raise the issue. But this also seems like an issue that’s probably bigger than what the manager can solve. What’s your take?

Andrea: I totally agree that this seems to be a scenario where the usual course of action – which seems so beautifully functional when you spell it out like that, Alison! – may come up short. Because the question becomes, is this employee actually capable of change? Many employees who suffer from imposter syndrome and anxiety bend over backwards to fix mistakes and put themselves under hyper-surveillance about their performance – they often apologize too much, so this is an interesting twist that your employee refuses accountability and gets defensive and argumentative. But that’s also a common anxiety response and she is sabotaging herself all the same, so it’s clearly a deep-seated issue.

Now, of course, you can’t be her therapist, but I do wonder what would happen if you got really specific in the moment to help illuminate how she’s falling into that cycle, but also offering an alternative path. So, the next time you are in the throes of one of these overreactions, trying to calmly pause, point out very specifically and respectfully what is happening, and offer her a way out. (“This is an example right now of the pattern we talked about. I see you deflecting responsibility and avoiding the issue, but I am looking to solve it with a path forward. What about doing X?”) So it’s very similar to the overall idea that Alison would normally advise, but it has the twist of being an in-the-moment intervention where you model calm and you get really, really specific to try to see if she can break the pattern. Do you think that feels too personal or therapy-ish for the workplace, Alison?

Alison: I think the focus on action — “I am looking to solve it with a path forward, what about doing X?” — keeps it from being too therapy-ish for the workplace. You’re acknowledging that it’s something she’s struggling with and not pretending that doesn’t exist, but keeping the focus on the work and on work solutions (as opposed to something like “What’s happening for you right now?” — which would be starting down an inappropriately personal path). So I think it’s perfect!

I do think the letter-writer is right to realize that the employee just might not be able to solve this in the amount of time a workplace can reasonably give them to … but it’s reasonable to try this a few times and see if it improves things. If you find yourself regularly needing to say “This is an example right now of the pattern we talked about,” then I think you’ve got to start thinking about whether it’s practical to keep the person in the role. But it makes a lot of sense to try it a few times and see if it helps re-focus the conversation in a more constructive way.

What advice would you give to the employee in this situation?

Andrea: That’s good to hear, that if the letter-writer stuck to the action-oriented path, that the conversation still falls within the realm of an appropriate professional environment (rather than just the realm of my professional environment – a therapy room – where the rules of what’s appropriate are totally different!)

I do think that the letter-writer has to be realistic about at what point this is simply too much of a hurdle, that the amount of extra support the employee needs is beyond the reasonable bounds of what they can and should be offering as a manager. Because at some point it’s like any other challenge that interferes with an employees’ work – a skills deficit, a motivation issue, a behavioral issue – that could get in the way of them being able to perform their role over the long-term. I think your point about seeing if things get better, and quantifying how regularly it is happening, is crucial for figuring this out. It’s interesting that the letter-writer framed it as “usually meets expectations, but had some misses.” What ratio are we talking about – 90/10? 60/40? That’s key to me. Is this pattern something that is occasional, or is it becoming the default, and bringing down everything – productivity, collaboration, morale – in the process?

As for my advice to the employee herself, I have a lot of hope for her progress if she truly wants to work on this. Anxiety struggles have now eclipsed depression as the most common psychological challenges that people face, so she is most definitely not alone, and there is lots of good help available. A skilled therapist could help her get to the root of how she developed these patterns, in terms of her thoughts and emotions, and even more important, help build the tools for counteracting her usual reactions in the moment. But if therapy feels out of reach for whatever reason, really targeting the anxiety through some self-help methods could still be very beneficial. There are lots of good resources and books out there (not just my own!) and she’d be wise to look into mindfulness techniques, and the tools of acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT) specifically. Those will help her label her anxious voice, separate from it, and no longer let it lead her down a path that gets her into trouble. She’ll learn to pause and recognize those unhelpful thoughts in a nonjudgmental, curious and gentle way, and keep from acting on them in ways that sabotage her job -– and her life!

Alison: Excellent advice. Thank you for helping out today, Andrea!

Please check out Andrea’s new podcast, Baggage Check. Today’s premiere tackles signs your workplace is unhealthy, how the search for happiness may be making us miserable, and a conversation with author Lori Gottlieb (Maybe You Should Talk to Someone) about when “meh” therapy is better than nothing. Listen and subscribe today!

employee wants more praise but he’s not doing a good job, nosy coworker, and more

by Alison Green on November 1, 2022

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My employee wants more praise but he’s not doing a good job

I have a fairly new (six months) direct report who is not performing up to expectations but is still making progress and I am hopeful will ultimately be able to be successful in the role. One problem we are having, though, is feedback. He does get a lot of feedback on things he needs to improve on, which he listens to in the moment, but then he complains about to his coworkers that I was too harsh and he will avoid me the rest of the day sometimes. (I will admit that I have gotten pretty direct with him because he was not hearing what I was saying when I softened things.) Now he has complained to my boss that I have not been giving him enough positive feedback or praise. He said he has only gotten a “good job” twice in his short tenure. I honestly don’t know if that’s true but I would believe it is because his work simply does not warrant praise. He is barely meeting the basic job requirements most of the time and doesn’t always get there even. I do say thank you when he turns things in and I tell him when his work is correct but I don’t really praise him for doing the most basic parts of his job in the most basic manner and barely within the time frame required. Should I be praising him for that?

If you’ve only said something positive to him twice in six months of employment, while having lots of things to criticize, then either he really isn’t right for the job and you need to let him go or, yeah, you’re not giving him enough positive feedback.

I have trouble believing that you can’t find anything to praise in someone who is making progress and who you think will ultimately be successful in the job! Those are good things, and you should be able to find positive things to say about them. You don’t need to praise him for doing the basics like turning things in on time, but there’s something that’s making you think he’ll eventually do well in the job, right? Look for those things and tell him what they are. When you see progress, give positive feedback about that. If there’s really nothing in that category, then this isn’t someone you should be keeping in the job … but it sounds more likely that you’re not seeing the things you could be offering genuine praise for.

The thing to remember is that when all someone hears from you is criticism, that’s extremely demoralizing. People need to hear that you see the good things too, that they’re not complete failures in your eyes, and that their efforts are appreciated. If there’s only negative feedback, the relationship will become adversarial and he’ll lose trust in you and interest in the job. It sounds like you either need to recalibrate your feedback or reexamine whether he really can do the job.

Read an update to this letter.

2. My nosy coworker is too interested in my house sale

I have always considered myself a very private person when at work. I did not make a big deal when I got engaged or when we bought a new vehicle (when others can’t wait to share). I rarely share much of my personal life at work, with the exception of a few coworkers.

My husband and I recently bought a new house and listed our house with a realtor — super exciting and stressful for us! We kept the news of our new house limited to our immediate family and close friends and did not make a big deal about listing our house — no Facebook shares, talking about it, etc. This past Monday, a coworker who I do not have regular interactions or meaningful conversation with came to me saying, “I recognized your address and see your house is for sale!” This is not the first time she has referred to my house in conversation. I have never disclosed my address to her, only the general area of our neighborhood. She went on to comment about our house, asked how many showings we’ve had, and said her son would love to buy it, but it’s out of his price range. Two days later, she stopped by my office and said, “I see your house is pending! That didn’t take long! Did you have a lot of showings and offers?” I know – a lot of this could be perceived as making polite conversation, but she has a history of asking a little too personal questions, commenting on things she has no business commenting on, and generally being very nosy.

I went to my supervisor about how uncomfortable this made me and how inappropriate I thought some of her statements were. While she acknowledged and validated my feelings, her response was underwhelming. I agreed with her suggestion of letting this person know how I feel and acknowledged listing our house online makes it public knowledge. However, she went on to say that this person is, “a little odd and doesn’t always pick up on social cues” and other people have expressed similar concerns or complaints after interactions with her but it’s “just her personality.” I stood firm, stating there are still professional boundaries about discussing personal lives that need to be respected and I do not feel they are being respected.

I feel like excuses continue to be made for people’s poor boundaries and behaviors as “just their personality” because supervisors in this agency don’t want to deal with conflict or have uncomfortable conversations with employees. Any advice for talking to this person about how her comments make me uncomfortable and setting clearer boundaries in the workplace?

The most invasive part is that your coworker somehow “recognized” your address when you’ve never given it to her. The rest of it (asking about how your showings went, etc.) is more like normal office conversation — but recognizing your address and taking it upon herself to check back on your listing is weird and overstepping.

That said, this is more of a minor interpersonal issue that your manager isn’t wrong to expect you to handle on your own. Caveat: if this coworker has a pattern of doing invasive stuff like looking up people’s personal information, that’s definitely something her manager should tell her to stop. But just asking about your house sale and chatting about a topic that you’d prefer not to talk about at work … that really is in the category of stuff a manager would generally expect you to manage on your own. And if this coworker doesn’t always pick up on social cues, that’s all the more reason to say straightforwardly to her, “I’m pretty private about things like this and would rather not discuss it at work. Thanks for understanding.” You should also free free to ask outright, “How did you happen to even have my address? I’ve never given it to you.”

3. My job paid me in “banked time off” rather than money

I work for a nonprofit membership association, and I’ve been here for a little over a year. When I was hired, I was promised I would start as part-time, then move to full-time, like the guy I was hired to replace. This never happened. Instead my hours have been cut shorter and shorter, while my workload has only ballooned ever larger. Today something really odd happened with my paycheck, and I’m pretty upset.

I just received a paycheck that is literally half of what it should be. HR logged that I only worked 15 hours over two weeks, when I worked 30. Moreover, my “paid sick leave” hours magically went from 1 to 16 between last pay period and today. The sick leave bank is new to me, as HR did not tell anyone about this paid sick leave for part-timers until last week, and it was not on my previous pay stubs (but retroactively has been added to all stubs).

Is it legal to just take my hours worked and dump them into a sick leave bank without paying me? I don’t know if this is an accident, or some kind of intentional action on the company’s part.

For some context, it wouldn’t surprise me if this is some attempt to “remedy” my annual hours. For most of my first year, my boss told me, “I don’t care if you work overtime, just get it all done.” Then suddenly: “I need to you to take two weeks off no pay starting today because you worked too many hours this year.” During those two weeks: “I know I said you need to be off because you worked too much, but I got special permission for you to come back because I need X today.” (That last one was on a Sunday!)

I’m going to talk to HR and my boss, but I’m angry and confused. Is this legal on their end?

No, this is 100% illegal. You are required by federal law to be paid in money. Not time off, not comp time, not store product, not gifts, not banked leave for the future. Money. If this was intentional on their part (and it really sounds like it was), they need to fix it immediately via a check for the missing hours.

Suggested script: “We’re required by law to pay people for all hours worked, within X weeks of the work being performed. It can’t be paid as banked leave for the future. I need to get that missing money ASAP — can you issue me a check for it today?” (To fill in X, google the name of your state and “paycheck laws.”)

4. Am I being too prickly about wanting details from a prospective client before we set up a phone call?

I do freelance work and recently posted on LinkedIn that I’m taking on new clients. I got a message from someone who’d been referred to my post by a previous client of mine. He simply mentioned “a need for some freelance work.” (To be clear, he is a legitimate prospect working for a real company, not some rando.)

I wrote back that it was nice to meet him and thanked him for reaching out, and then said, “Can you give me an overview of what you’re looking for? If it sounds like I’d be a good fit, we can set up a call and discuss the details.”

Of course he wrote back that it was “probably best we schedule a call to discuss.”

So we’ve scheduled the call, and it’s fine — but it’s entirely possible I won’t be qualified for this particular gig, won’t be able to devote the necessary time to it, or won’t be interested (to say nothing of whether it will pay what I’m looking for). I can be prickly, so I just want a head check: Is it silly for him to insist on a call without even giving me a rough idea of what the work entails? I know it’s not uncommon. It’s just annoying, and it feels like it’s potentially wasting his time as much as it is mine.

Eh. I agree that a quick email with the basics (even just a sentence or two) would be more efficient before you both set aside time for a call, and I would want it too … but a lot of people feel more efficient on the phone (because they’re less comfortable with writing, because they value real-time back-and-forth, etc.), and if you want new clients it’s helpful to just be open to it. Yes, an email would be a faster to do an initial screening, but getting on the phone for five or 10 minutes could be helpful in other ways — for example, even if it turns out his project isn’t the right fit for you, having a warm conversation with him is a lot more likely to lead him to refer other people to you than a brief email exchange will.

However, if you have a packed schedule and get a lot of requests like this, set up a short intake form online and explain you ask prospective clients to fill it out before you talk! (Keep it simple — just ask the questions that will let you determine if setting up a call even makes sense.)

5. My interviewer cut off our meeting early

I went through six interviews and was at the final “lucky” seventh. This is a very large company and the interview was with a member of executive management. The interview was scheduled for 45 minutes. At the beginning, the interviewer said she asks all interviewees the same pre-formatted questions to eliminate confirmation bias. At minute 35, she said, “I am conscious of the time and have asked you all my questions. My notes will be passed to HR. Something very pressing has come up and I must drop off a little early. I am happy to answer any of your questions, but please email them to me.”

This approach really turned me off and I don’t know if I am still interested. Am I being too sensitive?

Probably, yes. People have emergencies that come up and that require them to cut things off early. She sounds like she was particularly formal/stilted about the whole thing, which made it feel chillier than if she’d been less formal. I think you would have felt differently about it if she’d said the same thing but in a warmer way — like if she’d said, “I’m so sorry, I have an emergency that’s just come up that I need to deal with. I’ve asked all my questions and normally would want to leave room for yours, but in this case I need to drop off. I’d be very happy to answer any questions you email me though, or we can set up another time to get your questions answered.” Same message, different vibe. But I think you should translate it to that in your head since the gist is the same.

It also matters that this was the seventh (!) interview, so you’ve presumably had a lot of time to ask questions in the earlier stages. (Seven is way too many, by the way, but that’s a separate issue).

I work next to a haunted house, and other tales of Halloween

by Alison Green on October 31, 2022

Here’s a round-up of Halloween posts from the past.

I can’t escape Halloween Town

my company wants me to work Halloween and I’m a Halloween fanatic (and the update)

I live where I work, and now there’s a haunted house next to me

our office may be haunted — how do I keep it from distracting from our work?

my employee sent a memo to management about ghosts in the building

I’m in trouble for being too tired to work the day after Halloween

my employee got fired for wearing a Halloween costume to work … and trick-or-treating in an important meeting

my piece for Slate on Halloween do’s and don’ts

a special Halloween episode of the Ask a Manager podcast (from 2018 — with stories of people’s spooky experiences at work, including voices when no one is there, a creepily laughing doll, a fired guy’s ghostly revenge, and more)

have you ever had a spooky experience at work?

by Alison Green on October 31, 2022

Did you ever work somewhere haunted? Feel the ghost of your predecessor marooned in your office? Encounter an evil spirit lurking in the copier?

It’s Halloween, so let’s hear all your stories about spooky experiences at work. Share in the comment section!

And to start us off, here are some particularly creepy stories from past years:

• “At my last job I would often work several hours past the others, and past dark. There were multiple times where I’d hear filing cabinets opening downstairs, hear the printer randomly turn on and start whirring, and voices whispering. Sometimes the door would be unlocked when I was sure I’d locked it. Every time I thought someone else had come back for something and every time, it was dark and silent when I got downstairs to look. The voices were the worst. When you work in an industrial park you don’t expect to hear talking from outside after hours. Place was in the middle of nowhere.

Of course you could make an argument for stress. I sat at the top of the stairs in a creaky old building with my back to the stairwell, and I was overworked and tired. That said, my boss/the owner did die in a tragic and unexplained plane crash a couple months before.”

• “I work in a museum. There has always been a joke that the man the museum was named after haunted the place. Things would go missing and items in the souvenir shop would be moved. … When Housekeeping did a deep clean at night, they always said strange stuff would happen. Sounds, voices, etc. When the museum was renovated, we added a big-screen theater. There is a control booth with a small storage area at the top of the theater steps. There is also a tiny balcony behind the control booth where we have screens that face the main hall and that we use to advertise upcoming events, memberships, etc. Many of the security staff swear they have seen and/or experienced ghostly happenings in the control booth/storage area/balcony. One really large, muscled ex-military guy had such a frightening experience that he refused to go in the theater. He was on rounds, checked the theater and heard sounds in the control booth. He knew the AV guy was off that day so he went up. He saw no one in the booth or the storage area, so he was checking the balcony area. He said someone shoved him and he almost fell off the balcony area. There was no one in the theater besides him but they checked the tape anyway. You could clearly see the moment he was pushed forward but you couldn’t see what pushed him forward.

I stay away from the theater. If the biggest security guard in the place was almost pushed off the balcony by invisible forces, I’m not chancing it.”

• “I work in a nursing home with many folks who have dementia. They live in other realities, and I’m used to residents saying weird things. However, there seems to be a trend in one area of the building where residents typically refer to ‘the little boy’ who always seems to be standing somewhere near. It’s very common for a resident to be talking to the little boy (look like they’re talking to thin air), and it’s also common for them to ask us questions about the boy (‘is this your child?’ or ‘is the little boy going to come to the activity too?’, etc.). It’s only in that one area of the building, but it’s with almost all of the residents who have dementia. Only one of them has a history of having visual hallucinations. It does creep me out a little bit.”

• “I worked at a place where when we renovated our office, they decided to replace all the walls with glass, to show we were a ‘transparent organization’ (as you can probably guess, leadership there kind of sucked). While the higher ups had frosted glass offices, most of the staff had glass, fishbowl offices with no doors. As you can imagine, we all hated when we lost our walls, particularly one guy who routinely complained about it.

Well, a few months later this guy is fired (for unrelated reasons) in the worst way possible, where they did it midmorning, and everyone saw it happen (hard to hide things in a glass office). So he had to pack up all of his stuff and was escorted from the building.

The next day, the glass walls of the fired guy’s office shattered. No one was near that office, no one saw anything suspicious, and we worked in a secure office so people couldn’t come in without us knowing. We never found out what happened, but I like to think that fired guy got his revenge.”

interview with a haunted house cast member

by Alison Green on October 31, 2022

For Halloween, I talked with someone who worked in haunted attractions for more than a decade, both as an actor and a makeup artist. Here’s our conversation.

First, tell me a bit about the work you did.

I started working for a large haunted house in my early teens and continued until my late 20’s on and off. I worked in one haunted house for 6 seasons and four others for 1 season each. I am a trained practical effects artist so I helped out with make-up and getting everyone ready for the evening, as well as doing some construction work in the off-season, but primarily I was an actress. I played a variety of roles, but I was mostly a “possessed girl”, a ghost, a victim, and for one lovely and memorable weekend they gave me a chainsaw.

Every haunted house was run a little bit differently. For the most part we would have a couple weeks of training in July/August, then we would start working weekends in September, before opening most days in October. Some haunted houses were open sign-up, and other ones you had to audition for. A typical night involved people showing up starting at four or five pm, getting our assignments, and getting into our costumes. Some people were routed nightly, but others were kept in the same “room” or area every night. About 30 minutes before we opened, we went to our assignments. The older people would train people in our area if they were new. Almost everyone would do a quick run through of their room to make sure nothing was broken. When people would come through in groups, each room performed a small loose skit that was assigned to their room.

What did you do with the chainsaw?!

Everyone does things differently! Obviously you’re going to get scared if a big guy runs at you with a chainsaw. I’m a very petite woman and lacked that intimidation factor, so I would wait until the group was going around the corner into a longer hallway and had taken their attention off me and then would sneak up behind them and start it.

Would you tone it down for certain audiences — like if you saw a little kid come through, would you intentionally be less scary?

Haha nope! The haunted houses I worked at were recommended for audiences 13 and older and you were told that when you bought tickets if you were bringing in younger children. If people were really freaking out we would get them out the emergency exit but people didn’t tone their act down. Part of this was for logistics. You rarely get to see your group until they are most of the way into your area so it can be hard to stop going or change directions once you start. Plus it’s not fair for the rest of the audience if they are in a group that happened to have kids in it. You paid to get scared, so you got it.

Did you ever see anyone have a really surprising reaction as they toured the haunted house?

Oh man, people would lose their minds! It was so hard to keep a straight face. I had a young man just run through a wall. People would actually wet themselves. Crying was normal. My favorite was a man who threw his wife at me and screamed “take her, take her” before fleeing! (I hope he enjoyed his time sleeping on the couch).

OMG what! Can you tell me more about what people found scariest in these haunted houses? I must know more details about this. (The ones I’ve been in haven’t been TERRIBLY scary so I am really fascinated.)

People really hated that chainsaw! That seemed to produce the most screaming, wife throwing, and panic running. Rooms with doctor themed stuff seemed to set off a lot of triggers for people. A lot of people don’t like clowns and most haunts now seem to have a plethora of them now. We had a hallway that was inflated like a bounce house but it was super narrow and you had to squeeze through and people HATED that. The main attraction I worked at had people working outside while people were waiting in line so that atmosphere was already there and people were already keyed up going in. I also think it was just a lot. We had everything timed so there was constantly something going off or something going on and I think that much loud noise and stimulation is super overwhelming for people.

Any theories on why people enjoy being scared to the point of crying? Or in some cases, do you think they didn’t enjoy it and regretted going in?

I mean if I’m going to pay $45 for something I better cry too. But I do feel like the people who really, truly enjoyed themselves allowed themselves to get worked up. It was better for everyone; the cast had more fun and interacted more with the groups that were reacting and scared then the people who just shuffled through wordlessly. But some people probably pushed it a little too far and got way too worked up. I’m sure some people regretted going through there. But I think getting scared like that, in a place where it’s all in good fun, is an adrenaline rush.

What was the best thing about this work?

I loved being able to be creative and entertain people! You really could react and mold what you were doing as the audience reacted to what you were doing. And you really have the most passionate coworkers you could ever have.

What surprised you about it (or what wouldn’t you have predicted about it when you started)?

I was shocked how many people are completely comfortable assaulting strangers. Obviously sometimes people would react by pushing their hands out if someone jumped at them (and that’s fine!) but it was so wild to me that people would intentionally kick, slap, punch, and grab the actors and actresses in the haunt. And not that they would know this, but many, many of the performers are pretty young (teens and up) so people were slapping kids around. I was punched and kicked multiple, multiple times.

That is horrible! What the hell?! Was your sense that they thought it was somehow “all in good fun” (which would be a profound misunderstanding on their part, obviously, but I’m trying to find some redeeming quality in these fellow humans) or just open hostility and … what, taking advantage of the fact that they could? Agggh.

I don’t like to stereotype but our biggest problem group were younger white males in say the college age category. I think there were a couple things happening there. I think open hostility might have been one of them. I also think they were showing off. They didn’t want to seem scared (when OMG you paid for this) so they instead acted aggressively. It’s also depressingly easy to not see haunt actors as your fellow humans when you decide to act that way. And I guess why not; we’ve sat through an hour of make up and a couple weeks of training to make sure you don’t see us that way.

Did anything ever happen that seemed legitimately scary/creepy to you? (Aside from horrible people assaulting staff — I mean eerie/ghostly.)

Oh yeah it’s very easy to creep yourself out! You are in a dark area designed to be really scary and a lot of times you’re by yourself. You see things, you hear things, and some of the veteran cast would tell new people that the whole place was built on top of a graveyard. We had one attraction that was wooded and we had the most awful soundtrack that played throughout the entire forest. I was in an area off away from the rest and I think I spent half the night jumping at every sound. At another house part of my skit was being hoisted up into the air using a pulley system, and I was up in the air with a group in the room and a real live bat flew into the room and started circling around the ceiling above my head (I wish I was making this up). The group was very impressed but I almost fell out of the system because I really did not want a bat in my face.

Did you ever think one of your castmates went too far in scaring people (and if so, what happened)?

I wish I could answer this but to be honest I have no idea. The way our haunt was set up, and how many are set up, is that each room was very much in its own little world and you don’t often have any idea what the next room or area is doing unless you have the time to leave your space and on busy nights you really didn’t. Haunts are also notoriously hard to staff so you were mostly performing by yourself. I’m completely sure it could happen. That’s why I don’t like the “extreme” haunts like BlackOut or MacKamey Manor. It’s too easy to go beyond and think something is in good fun when someone is having an actual issue.

But again, people are also paying to be scared. Unless someone was having a legitimate medical issue, which did happen, most of the time you were told to not back off because they are getting their money’s worth. I’d like to believe that most of the cast members I knew and worked with used their better judgement. If I saw that someone was really struggling, I kept my skit going for the rest of the group but I stayed away from the person who was losing their marbles because a lot of times that’s how you got smacked.

What do you think makes a really good haunted house? Are there any “secrets to success,” so to speak?

I think to make a really good haunted house, you need enthusiastic workers, great timing, and something that makes you unique. They are great seasonal money makers and it’s really easy to hammer together something that looks like tetanus come to life, round up a few teenagers, and take some inspiration from a hot horror movie and make yourself a quarter of a million dollars and call it good.

But the most effective ones that I’ve been to are only open Thursday to Sunday. That might seem like something small but working at a haunt is really a lot on your body and if you want all your employees to keep it up, they need a good long stretch of rest. Then they follow a pattern but not an incredibly obvious one. Having scare after scare is great, but if you want something really special, giving people some downtime to catch their breath is essential. One of my all time favorite haunted houses has a room that totals a quarter of an acre in size. It has no path and it’s very foggy and set to look like a forest. The actors in the room will run past you at a distance but never approach you. It’s low key compared to the rest of the house but it really allows a lot of panic to set in.

Your mention that working at a haunt is hard on your body makes me me wonder if it’s ever hard on you mentally. Is there anything about dwelling in this dark fantasy night after night that puts you in a weird or difficult mental space?

Not really. I don’t want to speak for every single person who works at a haunted house but many, many of us love horror, love the spooky and the macabre, and are totally living to get to do this every year. You might have to go to some weird spaces to get into character, but if you’re having difficulty in a spot you are in, you can always move or change your setting in a way that makes you more comfortable.

It’s actually a little therapeutic! You know those rage rooms? This is basically a six week long rage room. You get to scream, throw things, act like a wild animal; do things that you’d probably never get to do in polite society or at any other work place.

Can you enjoy haunted houses yourself now, or are you too familiar with the behind-the-scenes?

I enjoy them in a different way now. I don’t think of it so much as “I’m going to be scared” but more of “I’m going to have fun.” I have definitely been to some that are amazingly well done that I really admire, and I have been to a couple scary ones since getting out of it. It does really depend on who you go with though! I’ve been with other people who I worked with myself and honestly, it’s a little boring since we both know what to expect. But I’ve also gone in larger groups of people who think the whole business is scary and I have a LOT more fun.

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