Ask a Manager

This is a transcription of the Ask a Manager podcast episode “Am I the Annoying Coworker?”

Alison: You’ve probably heard people complain about annoying interns before – the intern who takes over meetings or the intern who’s way too pushy or otherwise irritates everyone in the office. Maybe you’ve worked with that intern. Today’s guest is worried that she might be the annoying intern and wants to figure out if she is. Hi and welcome to the show.

Guest: Hi, thanks for having me.

Alison: So you’re a college student. You’re a month or so into an internship which you are really liking so far. You’re getting good feedback and interesting work and what feels like a lot of autonomy. So far, so good. But you’re worried about whether your enthusiasm might be irritating. You wrote to me that you’re worried about overstepping the boundaries of your position and you don’t want to be that intern whose eagerness is actually kind of annoying or pushy. And you wanted to talk about how to make sure that you’re not coming across that way while still showing enthusiasm for your job. Am I getting that right?

Guest: Yeah.

Alison: So first of all, I love this question and I think the fact that you’re asking it probably means that you’re self-aware and that you’re not coming across as irritating or pushy. My experience has always been that the people who really do overstep bounds and come across as pushy don’t usually stop to reflect on it or to ask this kind of question. But let’s check that and make sure that it’s right.

I do want to say, in general, enthusiasm is a really good thing. Most people are going to respond well to it and will be happy to see it in an intern. It’s just really nice to see someone who’s excited to be there and who’s engaged in the work and clearly appreciates the opportunity. It’s sometimes more rare than you might think and I think it really stands out in a good way, at least most of the time. But has there been anything that has happened in particular that has made you worry that people might perceive you differently than what you want?

Guest: I’ve just noticed that when I’ve been in a meeting where we’re planning something written or some sort of messaging, things like that, and there will be a couple of other interns, I’ll say a couple of things. I won’t try to say too many things, I don’t want to be talking to you nearly as much as anyone else or any of the full-time employees, but the other interns really won’t say anything, and I just don’t want to be the only intern who ever talks. I try to make sure I’m not long-winded or anything or not contributing something that I don’t have the background information to be saying and make sure that everything is relevant. But I just don’t just want to be the one intern who’s always speaking and no one else is.

Alison: Yeah. So, you’re saying all the right things so far. I mean, the fact that you’re making sure that you’re not being long-winded and that you’re calibrating how much you contribute versus people there who have more experience or expertise, that’s exactly what I would tell you to do. And I think if what’s making you feel uneasy is that you’re comparing yourself to the other interns who are not really talking, it might be that they actually ideally would be contributing a little bit more rather than you contributing a little bit less. But I can see why it makes you feel uneasy. So, let’s keep digging into it.

I think you mentioned in your initial letter to me too that someone made a remark to you at one point about gumption.

Guest: (Laughs) Yeah, that was a bit terrifying, because I spent so much time reading things on your site. Anytime someone will say anything like that, it just strikes me as a moment of instant panic. But I was just at a training and most of the other people at the training were full-time employees. My boss was really great, and he let me go because it was relevant to what I’m studying in school, so it was a really great opportunity. And I was asking questions and being the type of student I am in a normal class – which is if I have a question and it’s an appropriate time, I’ll ask the question and if I have an idea to contribute and it’s an appropriate time, I’ll contribute. And it was at that point when another woman in the training, who is from a different organization and didn’t know me, realized that I was an intern and that I had just turned 20 and she thought I wasn’t an intern who had just turned 20. And she was like, “Wow, I don’t think I had nearly as much gumption at your age!” And it was just that word. It just struck me as like, “Oh no, am I being that person?”

Alison: Yeah. I want to say for listeners who aren’t picking up on why the word gumption is alarming you: the idea of gumption comes up in a lot of really bad career advice. There’s a humor piece in The Onion that I think captures that really well. The headline was something like
“95 percent of grandfathers got their jobs by just walking up and asking for one!” And it’s this idea that’s still out there – that if you just show enough gumption, enough initiative and boldness, that’s all you’ll need to get ahead. And it usually comes up in the context of really terrible ideas like taking out a billboard with your face on it to get employers to hire you, or camping out in a company’s reception area and refusing to leave until someone interviews you. So I can see why you were alarmed to hear someone used the word in reference to you! Based on the context, I suspect she was not using gumption as shorthand for that (laughs). I suspect she meant it in a genuinely complimentary way. I totally understand what you were freaked out about it, but based on what you’re describing, I think it probably does not need to set off alarm bells.

Guest: Okay, great. It’s just that word has always been one of those things where it’s like, I don’t know if you’re saying what I think you’re saying or if you’re actually using it in the strictest sense of the term, which is not as bad.

Alison: Right, right. Completely. Let’s talk more about what your enthusiasm ends up looking like. Are there particular behaviors that you’re worried… is it really just suggesting ideas in meetings like you were talking about, or are there other things that are making you unsure as well?

Guest: Yeah, suggesting things in meetings. Well, I don’t really tend to suggest things a lot. If someone directly addresses me, I’ll have an idea or something or I’ll go off on whatever topic we’re currently talking about, but if I’m suggesting something I’ll usually wait until after the meeting’s over and then go talk to one of my supervisors just to make sure I have all the information before I’m like, “Hi, I just got here, but please take my ideas like I know all the ins and outs of your company.” I have a lot of ideas and I don’t know which ones are good and which ones are bad, and I’ve been pretty open with my supervisors about, “Hi, I’m just trying to run things by you because I don’t know what is good and what’s bad at this point and I’m really just trying to learn. I’m not going to be offended if you say this won’t work for this reason. I really just want to know good and bad, just so I can learn.” But it’s just the volume of ideas I guess, because I’ll see something, and it’ll remind me of, “Oh, maybe we could write something about this” or “We should do something about this.” Especially since I’m younger and they usually ask me for ideas with a youth-oriented slant or anything with digital media, that type of thing. If I see something there, I’ll mention something like that. I just don’t want them to feel like because it’s a pretty small organization that I’m crowding up their inbox with random entry ideas when they have a crazy amount of stuff already to do.

Alison: Yeah. And again, the way you’re talking about it just really makes me think all the stuff that you’re saying, all of the framing that you’re giving this, that you know that they might not be good ideas, and you know that they have more experience and expertise, these are the sorts of things that I don’t think you would be saying if you were that annoying person. I’ve just never seen those things coexist, that someone could be really pushy and annoying and also be having this thoughtful analysis of it that you’re having here. So, my gut is saying that you’re not annoying, but let’s keep talking about it and make sure.

What’s the volume of ideas? Is it a few a day, is it a few a week? What would you say?

Guest: It’s a few a week, but it’ll be a couple of paragraphs. And I don’t know, it just always strikes me as I have a little moment of panic before I send things because even though they seem really open to everything, I know they’re really nice people and I know they wouldn’t say anything if they actually didn’t want to listen to my ideas all the time. I really feel like they don’t want to kill my spirit or something.

Alison: What kind of response do you get when you suggest ideas? Are you typically told, “Yes, let’s pursue that,” or is there a lot of “Not right now,” or how would you describe the response that you usually get?

Guest: It’s usually a lot of, “Yes, please pursue that,” or “Yes” and then they’ll forward it to someone who will be better for me to work on it with. Because I’ve been there for about three or four months now, and at this point they’ve determined that I’m self-sufficient enough to get things done if it’s my own idea. With external input obviously, but not a lot of extreme guidance and handholding. So, if they think it’s a good idea, which is usually, they’ll let me do it. But then other people have to be involved in it too of course, because I can’t just be doing things myself as an intern and so I didn’t want to feel like I’m taking up people’s time with ideas that even if they’re good aren’t super necessary.

Alison: I think the fact that so much of the time you’re being told “Yes, go pursue it” – that right there says you’re not being annoying. What you’re describing honestly sounds fine to me. And also, your colleagues sound like lovely people that they’re being so encouraging and supportive, I love that.

Let me talk a little bit about what it would look like if you were being the kind of annoying, obnoxious coworker that you fear because I think that will help you see that you’re very much on the right side of the line and it’ll also hopefully give you a sense of what would be a problem.

Guest: Okay, great.

Alison: When people get annoyed with very junior staff for being too pushy or for not understanding the boundaries of their position, it’s stuff like focusing on coming up with new ideas at the expense of doing their assigned work. So, not putting much energy into the projects they’ve been asked to do and instead prioritizing idea generation when no one has asked them for that. Or it can be pushing ideas in a way that makes it sound like you’re totally confident that you’ve come up with the silver bullet for whatever your employer works on without seeming to consider that people with more experience and expertise might have already considered that and found reasons to not do it.

Which is not to say that you should only make suggestions if you’re sure that no one else has ever thought of it before. The annoying piece is when it seems not to have ever occurred to the person that that could even be a possibility. So, it’s fine to say something like, “Hey, have we ever considered doing X?” The annoying version is more like, “We should definitely be doing X, and this would solve a bunch of problems. This is definitely the way to go,” with no acknowledgement that maybe there’s a reason that X isn’t happening. You just want your approach to reflect that you know that it might have been considered, other people might have tried this ground before, there might be good reasons for why it’s not happening. And again, it doesn’t sound like you’re on the wrong side of that line at all.

Related to that – I can go on all day about annoying behaviors, apparently – it’s also annoying when someone doesn’t seem to appreciate what implementing an idea would entail. It’s pretty easy to come up with ideas if you don’t have to take into account where the money would come from, or who would do the work, and what it would take, and what would have to get cut out to make room for it, and all the other things that go into implementing the idea. I think a lot of people have this one person in their office who considers themselves this ideas genius, but who never wants to do the work of implementation – which of course is what the feasibility of any idea is going to rest on. And people do generally find that person annoying (laughs). But again, I don’t think that’s you.

The other thing I would watch for is what kind of reception your ideas get. If the vast majority of the time you were getting a lukewarm reception, if most of the time the response was something like, “That’s interesting, we don’t have time for it right now though,” that could be a sign that your manager really isn’t looking for a lot of ideas from you. It wouldn’t even mean that your ideas weren’t good ones, it would just mean that there might be higher priorities that your manager or your team needs to focus on. But your manager is receptive and intrigued and is telling you to proceed with a lot of these, so that’s a great sign.

Does anything there resonate with you or give you more confidence that you’re not going awry here?

Guest: Yeah, absolutely. I think sometimes I’ll do maybe a little too much of… I won’t say initially, “You probably considered something like this before,” because I get excited and I’ll just say something, and then backtrack and say after, hopefully that’s okay. And just a product of, you know, being young.

Alison: And enthusiastic, yeah. And I don’t think you have to say it explicitly every time, I definitely don’t mean to convey that. It’s more that the way that you go about it, the tone that you use and just the general approach, there is a way to do it where you can tell that the person is thinking they have stumbled upon the solution that no one else here was smart enough to come up with, and then there’s an approach that has a little bit more humility to it. So, it’s not even that you need to explicitly say “maybe this has been thought of before.” It’s just more about the general vibe that you’re bringing to it, if that makes sense. Have you ever gotten the sense that someone was sort of bristling when you were suggesting something?

Guest: Not particularly. I mean again, there are a couple of other interns that I feel like I’m getting the side eye sometimes, but just from them and not from anyone who’s actually in charge of me or actually works there. And it’s not that… they’re also great. I just think we have different styles and they’re a little more introverted and I feel like they might see me as that one kid in class who always has their hand raised and it’s just sort of unnerving to get that reception from the people who are supposed to be your peers.

Alison: Yeah, you might be getting some side eye from them. They might feel like you’re setting a bar that they don’t necessarily want to have to meet. It doesn’t mean that you’re doing something wrong and I definitely hear you that it tends to be a little uncomfortable if you feel like your peers might see you that way, but on the manager side of things I will tell you, I’ve had groups of interns before where one of them really stands out, head and shoulders above the others, in large part because of the sorts of things it sounds like you’re doing. And that’s really ultimately what matters. You want to be impressive there and you want to have contributions that will be great on your resume and help you get recommendations in the future. And it sucks if your fellow interns aren’t super excited about the way that you’re operating, but I wouldn’t let that be the measure of whether you’re getting it right or not.

Guest: Okay, great. It’s just, because I know adults, especially sometimes if you’re newer to a work environment like that, they’ll be nicer to you and more accommodating. But then the people who are on your level, we’ll be the ones who are giving the genuine reaction to the way you’re acting and not being as polished about it. So that was kind of my fear, but I hope it’s not actually the case.

Alison: I don’t think so. What is your relationship with your manager like? Do you feel pretty comfortable with him or her?

Guest: Yeah, we have a really small team and I stayed on after the initial internship period was supposed to end, and I’m still working from school, so they’re letting me telework full time from school now, which is super awesome. We do have a really great relationship and I think I have that with all of my team, but it’s just so great that I’m just… I’m that kind of person who’s always waiting for the other shoe to drop. And they’re just so nice and accommodating that they can’t possibly actually feel this great about my contributions and think that I’m a great member of their team that I’ve idolized for such a long time.

Alison: I have a reason for asking about your relationship with your manager – because this is a completely okay thing to check in with your boss about. If you’re pretty comfortable with your boss, you could say something like, “Hey, can I get your read on something? I’m really excited to be here. I’m really loving the work. I feel like I sometimes suggest a lot of ideas and I want to make sure that’s not annoying because I can scale that back if you would prefer that I do that.” Because no matter how nice she is – I very much hear you on worrying that these people are all so nice that maybe they wouldn’t tell you if they’re bothered by something – but if you give her that kind of opening, that makes it very easy to say, “Yeah, actually, scale it back.” It’s pretty likely that she’ll tell you if she does indeed want you to do that. I think what’s more likely is that she’s going to say, “No, it’s great. Please keep the ideas coming. You’re doing a great job.” Either way, I think that conversation will give you some peace of mind.

Guest: Okay. Well (laughs) I actually did have that conversation with my manager.

Alison: Oh good!

Guest: Yeah, I asked her pretty explicitly in those terms: “I just wanted to make sure because I’m really, really open to constructive criticism and especially about the volume of ideas I give you. I know how busy you are.” and then she just said, “No, it’s great. You should keep going like you are. You have a really good connection with the people here and seem to really understand what we’re about, and so we understand why you’re so enthusiastic because you’re clearly such a good fit here.” And that was really awesome, but again, they’re just such nice people that sometimes I can’t help but think if they’re just being nice.

Alison: (Laughs) No, I think you’re fine. I have that tendency too, I always wonder what’s really going on in the person’s head, so I understand it, but I think you’re fine. I mean, my gosh, based on everything that you’ve said in this conversation, you’re getting it all right and they’re really happy with your performance. I don’t think you have anything at all to worry about. And I think that you probably will continue to worry about it because it sounds like to some extent that’s your nature and also it’s weird to be the only person in your intern group who’s doing it. And it probably is always going to feel a little like, “Ooh, is the fact that I’m doing this and no one else is, does that indicate something?” But I think you’re totally fine.

Guest: Okay, great. It’s really reassuring to hear that from you. I definitely respect your view on that and I was thinking if someone’s going to tell it to me straight, it’s going to be Alison.

Alison: I would love to have a guest on the show one time though where I can tell them that they’re being really annoying because that would be a fascinating show, but sadly it is not you (laughs). One thing I wanted to touch on a little too, I think that for you the worry is mainly about the idea generating stuff. It’s not that you might be asking too many questions, is that right?

Guest: Mm-hmm.

Alison: I do want to talk about the question thing though, because I think when this topic comes up that is often a thing that people wonder about. I think for people who are listening and might wonder if they’re getting the balance there in terms of, “Am I annoying my team or my manager with too many questions?” Let’s just briefly talk about that a little bit. For that, I would say curiosity is great and asking questions is great. It is also true that lots of questions can sometimes come across differently than one might intend. It’s not that people shouldn’t ask questions when they’re curious about something, but there is a time and a place for it. If you were the most junior person at a meeting, you don’t want to derail the meeting with a bunch of questions when other people there are trying to get through an agenda. So, you want to be thoughtful about the context and the time and the place and what other people might have going on. But it doesn’t mean you can’t ask later. I mean, one great thing to do is to keep an ongoing list of things you’re wondering about and save them all up to ask it once. On the manager side of things, I won’t always have time to answer a bunch of questions on the fly, but I would be really delighted to sit down with any intern once a week and answer all the questions that had come up for them that week. Everything from really simple stuff like “what does this acronym mean?” to more complicated things like “why do we approach this issue in this way?”

And I think too with curiosity, you just want to make sure that your reasons for asking are coming across. That it’s clear that you’re asking because you’re curious and you want to learn, and that the subtext isn’t that you’re disputing things or pushing back on what you’ve been asked to do. But that’s just a sidebar because it doesn’t sound like that’s really a piece of it for you. I just want to throw that tangent out there for people who are listening.

Guest: That’s also sort of a worry. It’s not as much of a worry, but of course sometimes I just try to make sure that I do as much research as I can, especially with stuff like the questions I’m asking, because it’s a really niche industry. And I want to make sure that if I could Google it and it would come up there, that I’m not asking it to people who have more important things to do. And they do seem to really like questions and usually the ones I ask, I’ve researched ahead of time to make sure. I hope that it’s not too irritating and I do try to bundle them, so I hope it’s coming across like that and not as though I’m disputing everything they’re doing (laughs).

Alison: No, you’re researching stuff ahead of time? You’re the perfect intern. Everything you’re saying is exactly what people want their interns or their junior level staff to be doing. You sound like you’re awesome and I bet your manager loves having you.

Guest: Well, that’s incredibly comforting (laughs). I hope so.

Alison: Good. Are there pieces of this that are still making you feel uneasy or do you feel pretty good?

Guest: Yeah, I feel pretty good. Of course I’m still going to always have those little worries sometimes, but overall the major fear has been quelled.

Alison: Good. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Guest: Thank you for having me.

Alison: Thanks for listening to the Ask a Manager podcast. If you’d like to come on the show to talk through your own question, email it to podcast@askamanager.org – or you can leave a recording of your question by calling 855-426-9675. You can get more Ask a Manager at askamanager.org, or in my book Ask a Manager: How to Navigate Clueless Colleagues, Lunch-Stealing Bosses, and the Rest of Your Life at Work. The Ask a Manager show is a partnership with How Stuff Works and is produced by Paul Dechant. If you liked what you heard, please take a minute to subscribe, rate, and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Google Play. I’m Alison Green and I’ll be back next week with another one of your questions.

Transcript provided by MJ Brodie.

You can see past podcast transcripts here.