interviewing with a manager who wanted to lay me off, customers who make religious comments, and more

by Alison Green on June 26, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Interviewing with a manager who wanted to lay me off

My manager at my last company had me on his layoff list. Another manager showed me the list looking for the name of someone who got laid off not realizing I was on it, and I saw myself listed with the three who had gotten laid off. Seeing that was a huge blow. Up until then, I’d considered myself valuable, with years of knowledge and experience. To be laid off over people with less experience, education, and dedication filled me with doubt. It was a large factor in me quitting that job with nothing lined up to take time off to reevaluate my career.

Ultimately, I decided to stick with it since I’m almost 50. I’ve been at my new company for two years now. My previous manager started here a year ago and, since he started, has twice asked me to apply for roles on his team. Both times I’ve asked, surprised, if I would be considered. He replied that of course I would be considered, seeming surprised and confused. After he hired someone for his most recent opening, he asked why I hadn’t applied after he suggested I should. Again, I asked if he would have considered me, and again he replied that of course he would since he asked me to apply. He said he’d let me know when he had another opening and asked why I keep asking if I would be considered. I gave some vague reason.

I can tell my continued questioning is confusing to him. I’d love to work with him again. He’s the best manager I ever had, but I can’t stop this nagging doubt that he doesn’t value me enough to keep me on his team. I guess people get laid off for different reasons, but the other three people on the layoff list with me, well, everyone expected they would go. It was very disheartening to see myself listed with people who worked another job while at work, watched sports for hours on their work computers, repeatedly violated safe protocols, and lost customer parts and lied about it. I can’t help but feel there is some massive mistake I made or some major flaw or failure that I’m unaware of. If there is, I want to know what it is and fix it.

Should I just come right out and tell him I know I was on his layoff list, explain what a blow it was, and ask him why? Or, if I were to interview with him, would it be strange if I asked what he sees me contributing to his team or what experience/knowledge gaps he thinks I have? The fact that he keeps asking me to apply makes me think he sees more value in me than I thought after I saw my name on that list, so maybe the risk is low if I were to get hired on his team. I don’t want to work for him again with this nagging doubt. I distrust my security with him and that would lead to me second-guessing everything I did.

I think you’ve interpreted this wrong. People get laid off for all kinds of reasons that don’t necessarily have to do with their work, like that their position is the one the team can most afford to lose, or a program they’re working on is slated to be cut as an additional cost-saving measure, and tons of other things. Yes, if you’re doing layoffs, it generally makes sense to include the lowest performers, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be role-based cuts too. (Also, note that you weren’t actually laid off while the other three people on the list were, which likely means something.)

In any case, your manager has asked you repeatedly to come work for him again. He wouldn’t be this insistent and asking this often if he were offering out of pity; he means it. If you can’t feel comfortable working for him again, so be it — but it doesn’t make sense to keep doubting him. (And I hope you’ll reconsider your reluctance, too, because “the best manager you ever had” is not something to turn down lightly.)

I do want to point this out: you quit a job with nothing else lined up rather than be laid off (thereby forfeiting the chance for severance if you did eventually get laid off, which you might not have) and now you’re refusing multiple invitations to work for someone you really liked because you doubt they really like you, despite all signs to the contrary. You’ve been leaping to the worst possible conclusions and then acting on those conclusions in ways that are counter to your own interests — ways that harm you (perhaps so that you can do it before anyone else can?). Any chance that’s been a pattern before?

2. Responding to customers who make religious comments

I work in a customer-facing position in a very religious part of the country. I am an atheist. Generally this isn’t an issue, but lately I’ve had several interactions where I’ll be checking out a customer and making small talk and the customer will make a comment about how some people “need Jesus” or their relative needs to “read the Bible.” Whenever this happens, I’m at a loss for how to respond. I don’t want to agree or disagree with their statement but it always seems to turn awkward, even when I try to stay friendly but neutral. I don’t struggle with all references to religion; if they say something like “god bless,” I just responded with “thank you.” But in these other situations, it feels like they want me to affirm their judgment about the necessity and value of the Bible and Jesus, and I don’t want to offend them but I also don’t want to pretend to agree with them. Any suggestions for a script that will end the interaction less awkwardly?

I don’t know that there is a way to keep it from being awkward! They’re making the interaction awkward by assuming their religious beliefs are universal, which is rude (though also very common in some regions).

I’d stick with friendly but neutral, even if it does make for a slightly awkward moment. Exactly what that looks like will vary by interaction, but don’t underestimate the usefulness of a random subject change: “did you want to take one of our sales flyers?” / “I love your necklace” / “can you believe how hot it is out there?” I also wonder if in some of these interactions it’s possible to mentally reframe comments like “he needs Jesus” or “she needs to read the Bible” to “I’m worried about him” / “I don’t understand her” and respond the way you would if they’d said that instead? Don’t do that in cases where it’ll make you feel like you’re agreeing with something you don’t agree with, but there might be times where it’ll work.

3. My coworker made me wait a long time while I was standing in her office

I work at an agency in a senior management role. I have a colleague, a peer, with whom I don’t work together often, but sometimes I need her expertise on projects for my client. She is an added value asset I can sell to clients, essentially.

This colleague and I were working on a project, and I needed her input on a response to my client. I messaged her on Slack twice with no response so went to her desk. When I asked if I could have quick word with her, she asked me to wait while she finished an email. She then put her headphones back on and made me wait 3-4 minutes while she finished typing. I felt really uncomfortable standing there in the middle of the office — we are open plan — but knew if I asked her to find me when she finished, it would never happen and I needed this info.

Is this rude and disrespectful or am I being overly sensitive? I have asked people to wait myself when I’ve been in the middle of something but the length of time and the fact she put her headphones back on just seems really off to me. I also wonder if she would behave the same way with other colleagues she has a longer relationship with.

Well, ideally she would have told you she needed several minutes in case you didn’t want to wait, or simply said she was in the middle of something, but I think you’re being overly sensitive (and you did show up without warning, after all, and after already getting some cues she might be busy when she didn’t respond to your messages). She might have been in the middle of a back and forth with someone, or been downloading info from a conversation she’d just had and didn’t want to lose the details, or just needed to finish a thought. Who knows. I wouldn’t worry about it at all!

4. My promoted manager won’t accept help with his old job

My manager was promoted to a vice president position from his prior director role. This promotion is an interim appointment since our C-level executive would like to do a formal recruitment for the VP position, but needs someone to fill it now for at least the next year. My manager is now doing two jobs, his new interim VP role, plus his director role. He told everyone on his team he has to operate in this dual-role fashion for the next year. I meet with him biweekly for our one-on-ones, and I see and hear the toll this is taking on him. He is visibly more tired and he shared with me that he feels inundated with the increased workload.

I am a manager on his team and in the past I’ve shared with him that I have a desire to expand my responsibilities as a people and organization manager. He has been supportive of this and has given me chances to manage additional projects. We have a good working relationship and I want to see him succeed, especially in his new VP role.

I sent him an email offering to serve in an interim capacity in his director role as he gets acclimated to his new position. I provided a proposal for how I could achieve this alongside my existing responsibilities. I also outlined how this works toward achieving my career aspirations and alleviating some of the load to allow him to focus on his new responsibilities.

I didn’t receive a response to this offer. During our next one-on-one, I brought it up. He didn’t address it and just said he’s keeping everything as-is for the next year. In my mind, there are a two possibilities for why he’s doing this: 1) there are things going on at his level that he’s not at liberty to share or 2) he is having a difficult time transitioning away from his prior role. While scenario 1 is certainly possible, based on his past behaviors it is more likely scenario 2 is in play — delegation has been a struggle for him. Many times in his director role, he got a bit too far into the weeds on projects where it would have served the team more efficiently to delegate to his team leads. Should I continue to offer this assistance to him or just let this go and let him do whatever he feels he has to do?

Let it go. You made the offer twice — once in writing and once in person, and he told you clearly that he’s keeping everything as-is for the next year. That’s a no! It’s possible that the explanation is one of the two you came up with, or it could be something else (including that he might not think you’re a shoo-in for the interim promotion). Regardless, you asked, and he declined. You should leave it there.

5. Did I make a mistake by leaving my passion field?

About a year ago, I left my notoriously abusive, high-stress passion role for a more stable field-adjacent position. Think if I was previously a math teacher for several years and now I’m an accountant for the school district. My stress level is way down, I have more energy for my personal life and the role has a surprising amount of flexibility.

The problem is, I don’t … like it? I knew it would be less public-facing and more administrative than my previous job. I did not consider how much of my day would be “take two PDFs and make them one PDF” or “let’s have three meetings to decide which icebreaker to do at the next training.”

I made this change in hopes that work would be less of a rollercoaster — while I had a lot of fulfilling moments in my last role, there were a lot of hardships and people in my role aren’t always treated well by the public or by their colleagues. But now it’s like I traded that for all the boring parts of a job and none of the dopamine. And the thought of logging into the email factory every day for the next 20 years kind of makes me nauseous. I’ve talked to my therapist but, as you’ve pointed out, therapists are not always the best at giving career advice. I would love to just follow my heart and dive back into my old job, but I need to be realistic about how much that level of emotional involvement affected my personal life and health. How do I find the line between engaged and healthily detached to ride out to retirement?

The choice isn’t just between this one soul-deadening job and the exhausting role you were in previously. It might be that your current job isn’t right for you, but that doesn’t mean you have to go back to where you were. You could see the current job as data that’s helping you refine what you do and don’t want, and go out and look for a job that’s closer to what you do want. The choice doesn’t have to be binary.

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{ 518 comments }

{ 518 comments… read them below }

  1. HannahS*

    OP2, as a fellow person who works with the public, I have some ideas:

    If you can master the classic therapist’s “Mmm” you’ll be set. It’s intended to be the blankest, most neutral response imaginable that communicates nothing other than “I’m listening.” Then change the subject.

    There’s also the sympathetic “I’m not sure what you mean” in exactly the same way you would say, “I haven’t seen that movie” (i.e. every-so-slightly-apologetic-smile, neutral tone.) Followed by a subject change, ideally a question so that they’re distracted from whatever they said.

    1. bamcheeks*

      Even better. respond to, “he needs to read his Bible” with a polite, “I haven’t seen that movie”.

      1. RabbitRabbit*

        They’d probably take it as a chance to proselytize to you. There are actually adults in America who believe that there are people in this country who simply have not heard of Jesus and what he supposedly involves, and who would hurl themselves across traffic for the chance to spread the “Good News.”

        If you’re lucky, that response might just reboot their brain and confuse them long enough for them to wander off. But maybe not.

        The “mmm/hmm” followed by question to change the subject is probably safest.

        1. Meg*

          I’ve been asked three times to my face at work whether I was Christian/believed in Jesus. I am firmly atheist, but I knew answering truthfully would not go well so I just went along with whatever. I HATE it.

          1. LoraC*

            I just reframe it as “I believe a person we now consider Jesus today was real and existed historically.”

          2. no one you know*

            Please don’t do that! Don’t pander to them! Be proud of your atheism. We need people to start accepting us. And they won’t unless we speak up.

            1. DJ Abbott*

              It’s not always safe to be open about minority beliefs. The kind of workplace where this is allowed will probably persecute and/or fire Meg if she is open.

            2. PayRaven*

              Sometimes you just want to end a mandatory interaction as quickly and painlessly as possible, and that’s entirely valid.

            3. iglwif*

              Speaking as a Jew: It is totally okay to not open the door to unwanted evangelizing. It is okay to want to get out of the conversation with as little drama as possible.

          3. Petty Betty*

            I’ve responded “lovely book, too bad they k*lled the hero halfway through” and “I believe you believe”. That’s when I’m being feisty.
            When I want to be left alone, I usually say “my relationship with Jesus is just that. Mine”, or “Romans 14:22 ‘The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God'”.

            I don’t do well with buybull thumpers, having been thumped with a few in my childhood.

            1. Melody Powers*

              I have to say, I appreciate you saying they killed the hero halfway through since the pedant in me always objects to the jokes about how they killed him in the end when there are many books after the Gospels.

        3. Sparkles McFadden*

          You do not want to save anything to indicate that you need to be “saved” because you will then become this person’s project!

          You need to mentally translate the “he needs Jesus” type phrases to non-religious sentiments (such as “I’m so worried about him”) and respond accordingly with “uh-huh” or “I’m sorry to hear that” or some other neutral thing. It’s like someone saying “God bless you” when someone sneezes. Yeah, it’s annoying, but ignorable.

      2. blah*

        I know the go-to move for people on the internet is to be snarky, but I can almost guarantee this wouldn’t work in real life. The customer would either continue explaining why they think that, or they would get angry that you’re demeaning their religion.

        1. RagingADHD*

          Yeah, actively insulting customers is not a good way to handle it. If you don’t want the job, you would be better off quitting rather than be fired for cause.

          1. Business Pigeon*

            Your response is strangely overwrought. No one suggested “actively insulting” anyone’s religion. And likewise, a slightly jokey response isn’t indicative of not wanting a job. Having said that, I also avoid saying anything snarky or jokey simply because that is guaranteed to prolong the interaction, and in these situations, my main objective is to simply get through whatever I need to with the person for work related purposes and send them on their way.

            I work EXTENSIVELY with the public and have had many, many people both make offhand religious/political remarks, ask me directly about my religion or my personal politics, or tried to engage me in long drawn-out discussions about either or both. I stick firmly to “I do not discuss religion at work” and “I do not discuss politics at work.” If someone makes an offhand comment that really doesn’t require a response, I usually just smile blandly and nod.

            1. RagingADHD*

              1) I am not sure why you seem to think my generic “you” was directed at you personally, since you are neither the person I replied to, nor the person whose comment I was describing. But whatever the reason, I apologize for upsetting you so much

              2) If you don’t understand why a religious person would consider snarkily referring to their beliefs as a work of fiction to be insulting…I just don’t know how to explain that to you. It seems pretty straightforward to me.

              3) If you don’t understand how a person who gets a reputation for insulting customers (particularly in a very religious area) is likely to get fired for it, again… I’m not sure how to make it clearer. It seems like a very foreseeable and unnecessary risk to take for a moment of personal amusement.

              4) TIL some people think wry comments are “overwrought!” Interesting. I’ve never heard the term used that way.

              Again, I apologize for whatever personal criticism you perceived that made you feel you needed to give your credentials so extensively. I assure you, it was entirely unintentional and by no means directed at you.

        2. Yorick*

          And it doesn’t even make sense to respond to “he needs to read something” with a comment about seeing a movie. It would definitely just prolong the interaction and make it weirder.

        3. Observer*

          or they would get angry that you’re demeaning their religion.

          Correctly so. There is nothing “polite” about that answer. It’s also nonsensical. So you’re demeaning their religion and them as a person.

          I can’t imagine that flying in any workplace that cares at all about customer service.

        4. The Other Paula*

          Agreed. When I’ve been in customer facing roles during major elections I get comments from people. Even if I agreed with them I wouldn’t want to have that conversation then. Any kind of snarky comment is taken as a challenge to convince me of their view point.

        5. ABC*

          You can tell that people who recommend doing stuff like this have never worked retail or service jobs, or possibly any kind of public-facing job at all. The way they imagine other people reacting to witty comebacks is not in any way connected to reality.

          1. bamcheeks*

            I am genuinely surprised that people took this as a serious suggestion rather than a joke!

        6. Orv*

          I generally find sarcasm doesn’t work as well in real life as it does online or in movies. I tend to reserve it strictly for situations where I don’t mind if things escalate.

      3. ferrina*

        Even worse: “Oof, I read the book and it was a lot more risqué than I was led to believe. I mean, why did they need a rule not to do that with sheep?! And Elijah and the she-bear… that escalated quickly!”

        People don’t tend to discuss Christianity with me.
        (note: this won’t work for all people/personalities. As always, use at your discretion.)

      4. PurpleShark*

        Or just mumble “he needs something.” And move on. Not every comment needs a response though so don’t feel compelled to give one.

        1. Star Trek Nutcase*

          I’ve encountered similar in various public service roles, I don’t respond at all and simply give my patented “blank/don’t give a shit” face. If the person persists, I just continue with the face. If I absolutely must verbalize, it’s work related: “here’s your paperwork”, “do you require something more from this office”, etc. I’ve also done this with pushy religious coworkers and managers.

          1. Quill*

            A standby of mine is “well, everyone has opinions” (when it’s relevant, i.e. a customer is complaining about something someone else said / the relatives are mad that somebody challenged their worldview, etc.)

      5. Salty Caramel*

        I’d rather say, “I’ve seen that movie, I know how it ends.” Used that when Passion of the Christ was in theatres.

        Personally, I don’t care for most religious expression in the workplace. It’s purely subjective, of course. I have nothing against jewelry or something on a person’s desk, but peppering conversations with comments like that, religious quotes in email signatures get my back up. I’ve had people hand out pamphlets and try to convert me at the office and that does not belong there, IMO.

        I withdrew from a lucrative job lead when I learned there were prayer meetings in the lunchroom.

        If a customer said such things, I would do my best to ignore them or change the subject back to the work in question.

        1. Salty Caramel*

          Apologies I wasn’t clear. When the movie was in theatres, I would say, “I know how it ends.”

          More coffee needed.

          Also, I do understand when certain religious comments are cultural and have moved beyond a religious meaning. I do my best not to use them.

        2. El*

          Funnily, when a sales clerk told me I needed to see “The Passion of the Christ,” I responded that I had read the book!

    2. anon24*

      “Mmm” or “Hmm” and change the subject to something work related is the way to go.

      “My cousin blah blah blah… they just need Jesus!” “Hmm. Isn’t this item just the cutest? I’m so glad we’re selling them.”

      I’m in healthcare and when patients make religious comments I either ignore them entirely (pretend not to hear) or respond as above. If they try to get any more involved than that I cite a (non-existent) company policy forbidding me to discuss religion (I also do this with politics, whether I agree with whatever politics or not): “I hear you, but it’s company policy that we’re not actually allowed to discuss religion while in uniform, I apologize. Anyway…”

      1. Anonym*

        I like “Oh dear, I’m sorry to hear that” when they’re complaining about someone. Or, “That’s too bad” with a sympathetic look. You can reply to the core of what they’re expressing without acknowledging the religious lens.

        1. Seashell*

          I like your suggestions. I was thinking of something like “I hope things get better for all of you” (or possibly “y’all,”considering the description of the area.)

          1. TeaCoziesRUs*

            Y’all is always appropriate… at least in my world. :) I’ve used my favorite contraction North, South, East, and West in the US, as well as a few international countries. So far no repercussions!

            1. Hannah Lee*

              I was born and raised in New England, currently live in New England, and yet “y’all” comes out of my mouth at least once a month.

              It’s a good word!

            2. Goldenrod*

              For some people, depending on who you are and where you were raised, “Y’all” is always appropriate.

              As someone who grew up in the Bronx, I am incapable of saying it! I would feel like a huge phony. That word just does not naturally come out of my mouth. ;p

              1. TeaCoziesRUs*

                There are times when I feel sorry for all y’all New Yorkers… this might be one. ;)

                1. Princess Sparklepony*

                  It’s ok, we have youse and you guys.

                  Also, we have fuhgeddaboudit.

                  And one that I always loved but you don’t hear much anymore is terlit also flushometer, aka the toilet.

                  Plus we can add the f-word to anything as a modifier.

              2. Orv*

                I grew up in the Great Lakes area — I feel like saying “y’all” would be cultural appropriation and might turn someone who was really from the South hostile.

        2. Pottery Yarn*

          This was definitely my thought as well. Something along the lines of “That sounds like a tough situation.” would work for most of these interactions.

        3. Someone Online*

          As someone who lives in a heavily religious area, this is my suggestion. Go with the emotion behind the expression – worry about someone, sad about someone’s choices, angry, etc. Or respond in a way that feels true but isn’t religious. “He needs Jesus.” “He certainly needs something!”

        4. Adultier adult*

          Yep. I’m southern. A well placed “Goodness” takes care of it and everyone moves forward

          1. Princess Sparklepony*

            That’s good, noncommittal but seemingly on their side. No one can get upset over that.

      2. Nonanon*

        Yeah, depending on where OP is actually located, some aspects of Christianity are just more ingrained and even phrases like “they need Jesus” are more cultural than religious in nature. I had an old manager who mentioned that the team needed “come to Jesus moments” whenever the team was SEVERELY not meeting metrics (multiple missed deadlines, poor inventory, AND institution-required records not updated, not “Prudence left glassware in the sink”), not because he was particularly religious or the culture I was working in was particularly religious, but because he had no better way of communicating the gravity of the situation (something he acknowledged and even clarified that using the religious wording wasn’t his favorite).

        1. Turquoisecow*

          Yeah I’ve definitely heard “come to Jesus meeting” used by people I would not say were very religious, it expressed fairly well the sort of gathering they were talking about.

          1. Randi*

            I am a firm agnostic, raised as an evangelist in the Bible Belt. “Come to Jesus” is definitely a culturally appropriate way of saying “we are going to address what you’re doing that has gotten you into some deep shit, and then discuss the things expected of you to escape said shit.”

            1. Clisby*

              Yeah, I’m 70 and a US southerner, and I’ve never ever heard anyone mention a “come-to-Jesus meeting” that had any religious meaning.

            2. Filosofickle*

              I’m an atheist, raised without religion, and use it that way. Linguistically I love playing with phrases that blasphemes or invokes religion like this! (See also: Christ on a cracker.) Trying to stop, because it’s not appropriate and probably gives people the wrong idea about me…

            3. Princess Sparklepony*

              I wish we had a like button!

              Exactly, someone is going to get a talking to. A big talking to.

              I’m atheist and I’ve used that.

        2. Observer*

          I had an old manager who mentioned that the team needed “come to Jesus moments” whenever the team was SEVERELY not meeting metrics

          It’s a phrase that gets used on *this* site all the time. And Alison is Jewish with no interest in Christianity (religiously) and demographics here are far from deeply Christian. And yet… So much so that I sometimes get a bit uncomfortable, to be honest.

          But think about it. If that kind of language gets used in a space that is assertively NOT religious and not *supposed* to be Christian, what do you expect from people who live deeply in this mode? It’s not proselytizing per se, it’s just the way they speak.

          1. Leenie*

            Darn it! Didn’t mean to hit submit. Anyway, the only two guys I’ve ever known to use that phrase were actually Jewish. Weirdly, I think it’s more an older guy business phrase, indicating that someone needs to be convinced to get on the right path, than anything that’s actually remotely religious.

        4. a clockwork lemon*

          I’m Jewish but raised in the south and can confirm at least anecdotally that I definitely say things like “so and so needs Jesus” or “did that make you feel closer to God?”

          Obviously I don’t do it in professional contexts, but it’s not a turn of phrase I bother to consciously police when I’m just, like, out in the world.

          1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

            Closer to God just made me literally LOL because the phrase reminded me of the incredibly NSFW Nine Inch Nails song, Closer. I’m really glad I never heard it at work or I know I would chortlesnort so loud. Gen X for the win!

        5. fidget spinner*

          Yeah, I live in the US South, and even people who aren’t religious will say “he needs Jesus.” It usually doesn’t literally mean “this man needs to become a Christian so that I find him more tolerable,” lol. It’s just an expression.

          (I don’t use it, personally, so I’m not defending its use, just saying that it’s more of a colloquialism than someone trying to convert you).

      3. JSPA*

        Shortly before surgery a few months back, even though I explicitly said that I did not have a faith preference on my intake form (and then reconfirmed it twice), the chaplain came by to check on my “spiritual needs.” She seemed slightly bit put out by my, “thanks but I’m good,” but withdrew quickly.

        1. Turnipnator*

          I wonder if they had multiple faiths (there are definitely Jewish and Muslim hospital chaplains too, and increasingly there’s also humanist and lay chaplaincy) and interpreted your ‘no preference’ in that lens, rather than “no faith, thank you”.

        2. Filosofickle*

          We had a hard time deterring the chaplain types when my mom was in the hospital and going into hospice. Their intentions were good but it was very irritating at a difficult time.

      4. Festively Dressed Earl*

        In my experience, customers would start on rants at the company for the non-existent ‘no religion/politics at work’ policy, so I switched up to “Oh, I never talk politics, religion, or sports at work – it’s so unprofessional!” and then change the subject.

      5. Romance Peddler*

        I work in a public library and find that a gentle “as a county employee, I don’t discuss religion or politics at work. Can I help you with something library-related?” tends to work even here in the south. If they push back like they still expect me to agree, I reiterate that “it’s literally my job not to judge, and I am happy to help you with something library related, *customer service smile*.”

    3. Helvetica*

      I “mm” all the time in situations where the other party wants me to confirm their statements that I do not agree with but it is also not important enough to contradict them. It works well, in my experience – you show that you are listening and they usually just continue talking.

      1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        I mastered the sympathetic but noncommittal “mmm” and various other pleasantly neutral noises (“you don’t say!”, “oh, that’s interesting,” and the like) when I worked at a grocery store in the run up to Y2K. Conspiracy theories galore, beliefs that it was the start of the End Times, aliens, the Russians were going to invade, you name it, I heard it. Vaguely understanding noises with zero commitment, inviting no follow-up. Whereas engaging in any way (agree, disagree, question) just led to me hearing even more about Bill Gates conspiring with Prince to shut down all the computers so that together they could become Prince of the Gates of Hell or whatever it was.

        Kept me sane!

    4. Brain the Brian*

      Lol, the number of times my therapist does that exact “Hmmm” in every session… hah. But yes, LW1 should master it. It will come in very handy.

      1. Keep it Simple*

        I have used this one often, mostly to crazy people spouting conspiracy theories.

      3. Cold and Tired*

        It’s even better when the recipient isn’t Midwestern and doesn’t realize that something being called interesting is rarely a complement. But as a Minnesotan I use “interesting. Anyway, question here that changes the subject” a lot.

    7. Falling Diphthong*

      Do what you would do if they insisted that these absent people needed to become Yankees fans.

      You probably wouldn’t argue over this with someone you didn’t know, needed to be polite to, but didn’t have any sort of ongoing deep emotional bond and mutual trust. You’d say “Mmmm.”

      1. Czhorat*

        I would never respond to a mild religious comment with the level of derision I have for Yankees fans.

        4. PropJoe*

          Yankees fans I’ve known have been so over the top obnoxious & entitled about their fandom that I have two favorite MLB teams: the one whose media market I grew up in; and whoever is playing the Yankees, even if it’s my team’s most hated rival. Best part of last postseason wasn’t seeing a team win their first WS, it was seeing the Yankees miss the playoffs.

          1. Lydia*

            Congratulations. Replace “Yankees” with “Red Sox” and the sentiment is probably the same.

        6. TeaCoziesRUs*

          My nose didn’t need that breakfast-filled snort cough. I’m not an avid fan of baseball although I do enjoy a game in real life and enjoy mapping to a game on TV. Even so, I see you and I respect your loathing. :D

      2. Yorick*

        These comments are often used like “they need help” or even “I’m tired of them.”

    8. MyStars*

      I am also fond of “you might be right.” They hear it as agreement, because most people are not very good listeners, but I treat it as the first half of a sentence I finish in my head: “…in some other universe… …but I doubt it… …for the first time ever…” YMMV, but it helps me sound pleasant in circumstances where I really don’t care about their outcome and just want them to go away expediently.

      1. Caro*

        In this vein I tend to go for a cheerful “Maybe!” or even “well you never know, do you” plus topic change. It satisfies my need to 1) not agree and 2) stop talking about it while 3) fulfilling social expectation to warmly acknowledge that they just said a thing.

    9. DJ Abbott*

      When I was working on my people skills, I saw a medical receptionist deal with a patient who came in and complained about several things while checking in. The patient was clearly a negative person who did that everywhere.
      The receptionist listened politely, then went on with the check in. She didn’t actually say anything, but the patient felt heard. So I think either saying hmm, or no verbal response, but listen, is the way to go with this.

    10. The Events Guy*

      the “mmmm” is one of my best friends…. but I’ve also used a version of affirming the person’s looking out for their friend/relative … .like, “your cousin is lucky to have you looking out for them” – . it gives the illustion that you care, without you actually having to care.

    11. Venus*

      In these situations I’d be tempted to say “I hope he gets the help he needs” as clearly supportive of the person in trouble without advocating for religious solutions, but I don’t know if that would work in reality.

      1. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

        That’s basically my go-to! I live in the south, and while I am a Christian, I don’t like to act like everyone else is, because they’re not. I have no desire to be an asshole for Christ.

        Plus, often when someone is saying stuff like “he needs Jesus” what they’re really saying is “he has a lot of problems/needs help/makes bad decisions”, so “I hope they get the help they need” is a perfectly acceptable response. You definitely don’t have to respond to religious rhetoric with more of the same.

        Comments about people who “need to read the Bible” I’ve found tend to come from people who actually haven’t done much Bible-reading themselves, and that does irk me more. If I have the spoons in the moment, I sometimes have snarkier responses to that phrase, like “have *you* read it? There’s some crazy stuff in there, they might be reading it but not the parts you want them to be reading.” But that’s because I A) have read it and B) can list off some of the crazier, less commonly-cited stuff in there that people who only know the bits of the Bible that they’ve cherry-picked for their arguments have skipped over. But anyone should be plenty safe in saying “I hope they get some help” or something to that effect.

        1. Retired Accountant*

          Sometimes an “Oh, I’m Catholic. We don’t read the Bible” hits the spot.

    12. Raisin Walking to the Moon*

      My favorite for #2 LW2 when someone says, “he needs Jesus,” is to say, “everyone is on their own path toward getting better.”
      For whatever reason, I’ve found that this really shuts them up.

      1. amari*

        “They’re on their own path” in a kind of “is what it is” tone is a GOOD one. Because they’ll hear “which needs Jesus and they’re doing terribly, I agree with you” and what you mean is “and it’s none of my business/I think they’re fine actually/it needn’t involve Jesus.”

        1. wordswords*

          Oh, yeah, I love this! What a great way to thread that needle while keeping the customer interaction moving congenially along.

    13. katydid*

      yeah, if what they’re saying is actually limited to “he needs Jesus” or “she needs to read her Bible,” I think of those as just turns of phrase that the speaker barely registers as faith-specific, and respond in kind. People around here talk about someone needing to have a “come-to-Jesus moment” or needing to have a “come-to-Jesus talk” with somebody, and what they mean is that the person in question needs to shape up or to change their ways. So I’ll respond with “boy, there’s one in every family, isn’t there?” or “sounds like she’s a real pain to deal with!” and they don’t get offended that I’m not picking up/continuing the religious thread. In fact if I said something like “how would Jesus help?” or “what in the Bible do you think would be useful to him?” they’d probably see *me* as derailing the conversation, since in their minds, they’re just using a turn of phrase everyone knows.

      1. MsM*

        Yeah, I’m not Christian, and I will occasionally use someone “needing Jesus” to express “I have no idea what to do about this situation.” So they may not be expecting any kind of response at all.

        1. CommanderBanana*

          I lived in the Bible Belt for a time (temporarily, thankfully) and you’re right, a lot of those expressions are just that – expressions.

          1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

            My grandmother used to say “y’all need Jesus” in a mild, joking way when my brother and I were small and acting like little agents of chaos.

      2. Zelda*

        > just turns of phrase that the speaker barely registers as faith-specific

        Which is problematic in its own way, that we can casually equate “needs a moral compass” or “needs to get their life together” with “needs Jesus;” see also “I celebrate Christmas in a secular way!” If someone wrote in saying “I used this expression that’s very common in this region, and even though I’m not religious myself, someone still got all offended!” we’d rightly read that person the riot act.

        But from the other side, it probably isn’t productive for OP to get into it. They’re not wrong to find it uncomfortable and problematic, but an interaction with a customer is not necessarily the time to correct the ills of Christian defaultism.

        1. Observer*

          Which is problematic in its own way, that we can casually equate “needs a moral compass” or “needs to get their life together” with “needs Jesus;” see also “I celebrate Christmas in a secular way!”

          That is 100% true. It shows up all over the place.

          it probably isn’t productive for OP to get into it.

          Exactly! This is not the time and place for this kind of discussion. Or even the time and place to push back, whether explicitly, passive-aggressively or even politely. A way to move the conversation along is going to be far more useful.

        2. TeaCoziesRUs*

          I see the Christian comments (“Needs Jesus… come to Jesus moment… etc) in the same way that I see lots of Americans of different faith backgrounds embrace the idea of karma without going into its Hindu roots or Zen without actually researching Buddhism. Part of me facepalms. Part of me rejoices that American culture is such a Mish-mash that someone who will froth at the mouth while bashing everyone over the head with their Bible will also truly see humans struggling with the consequences of their choices as “Karma biting their a…es”

          Yes, Christianity (twisted though it may be) is absolutely embedded in American culture, for good and ill. Yet it’s nice to see that wisdom from other faiths (twisted though it may be) also is making up our cultural fabric.

        3. CommanderBanana*

          But from the other side, it probably isn’t productive for OP to get into it. They’re not wrong to find it uncomfortable and problematic, but an interaction with a customer is not necessarily the time to correct the ills of Christian defaultism.

          Exactly. And in the Bible Belt, I was definitely in the the minority as Jew, and also definitely had zero interest in getting into theological discussions with Christians.

        4. iglwif*

          This is where my Jewish self lands on this question. I would be weirded out by someone saying this to me, and annoyed if they then insisted it was “not religious” or that “needs Jesus” is the same as “needs a moral compass” … AND ALSO I would very much not want to get into it during a customer interaction.

      3. Turquoisecow*

        Yeah agreed. It’s kind of what happens when the majority religion is the majority, even people who don’t necessarily strongly believe might use religious phrases like these or “come to Jesus meetings as mentioned above.” I’ve definitely seen people say “(they) need Jesus!” in response to someone whose life has gone off the rails, so to speak, they rarely mean that they think the person in question should go to church or pray or become more religious, they just mean that they need a certain guidance and focus in their life (which for some people is religion/Jesus).

        It’s kind of like “how are you?” doesn’t mean what it seems to mean, it’s conversational convention for “hello fellow human I acknowledge you.” Cashiers saying “how are you?” don’t need a response, “y’all need Jesus” doesn’t need a theological discussion.

      4. B*

        100%. I lived in the rural Bible Belt for a while and these turns of phrase are totally neutral parts of the vernacular. It likely wouldn’t even occur to the speaker that they’re conveying a religious sentiment, let alone one that could be exclusionary or controversial.

        That’s not a good thing, but fighting a well-intentioned stranger over it is getting mad at the fish over the water they swim in.

        1. katydid*

          Right; even as an atheist I’ve been known to ask Jesus to take the wheel in a strictly proverbial sense sometimes, because it’s an expression that anyone listening knows means “I could really get myself into trouble here.” It’s problematic in the same way that declaring that Christmas is a secular holiday is problematic, but it’s in the ether.

    14. CommanderBanana*

      There’s a comedian who has a bit about how the response “can you believe it!” works for almost any comment. Just alter your tone accordingly from enthusiastic to sorrowful and the listener will interpret it however they want, which usually means as agreeing with them.

      2. Fives*

        I can hear this only in Jack Lord’s voice on Hawaii Five-0, which will make interactions like this more bearable. :)

    15. MCMonkeybean*

      Lolll “the therapists Mmm” is exactly what I was imagining but I couldn’t think of how to describe it.

    16. LaMiAb*

      I worked in a southern state as a teacher, but I’m from New England, and not Christian. This was a public school where prayer would be led at staff meetings if there was food, and only one other teacher and I wouldn’t bow our heads and pray. That made me super uncomfortable – what about the separation of church and state?

      Every afternoon, the custodian for my wing would sing hymns as he did his job, which, you know, not my thing but whatever makes the work day easier. And as I left at 6pm each night, he would say to me, “Have a blessed day, Ms. A.” I would respond, “You too, Mr. B,” because that obviously meant something to him, and I could take that for a well wish as opposed to a religious thing. As I was leaving for winter break, he stopped singing his hymn, something about how Jesus was better than silver or gold, and he asked me, “don’t you agree that Jesus is better than gold, Ms. A?” I said, “well Mr. B, I’m Jewish so I don’t really believe in Jesus as the son of God.”

      He *NEVER wished me a blessed day again*! It saddened me, honestly, because while I would like to believe that he was just trying not to make me uncomfortable with something I don’t believe in, it felt like he was damning me a bit and snubbing me a lot. While I wasn’t entirely comfortable with being told to have a blessed day (because I knew the blessings weren’t the ones I believe in), like I said, I took it as a warm wish and not a religious thing.

      But my response of “I’m Jewish…” isn’t something I’d say to every single person who mentions Jesus, so I understand that this is a different situation. I also work in a customer-facing role (healthcare) and have some patients who say similar comments to me. Depending on how well I know them, I might go with the “I’m Jewish” comment, and I’ve only had one or two people try to convert me. Otherwise, I just say something like “Ah, well, to each their own,” and change the subject (even if it’s just “the doctor will be out to get you shortly”).

      1. Raisin Walking to the Moon*

        What a shame. I recently told my own version of Mr. B that I’m Jewish, and he went from saying “have a blessed day” to saying “I’ll pray for you.” And I just say the same thing, “I’ll pray for you, too, Mr. B,” and I can tell it upsets him. He’s been trying to say it as he walks out my door so that I can’t reply.

        1. Donkey Hotey*

          Once overheard a Wiccan respond with “I’ll dance naked under a full moon for you, too!”

          2. commensally*

            I have been know to respond to “Have a blessed day!” with “Blessed be!” I’m not even Wiccan but it’s funny. (And “blessed be” has been around longer than the first one, which only appeared in the last 20 years or so in my experience.)

        2. Goldenrod*

          “I just say the same thing, “I’ll pray for you, too, Mr. B,” and I can tell it upsets him. He’s been trying to say it as he walks out my door so that I can’t reply.”

          LOL!!!

      2. Lab Boss*

        It’s not quite the same gap as Christian/Jewish, but I’ve been known to exchange Christmas greetings with a friend in the form of “Happy birthday to your Baptist Jesus!” “Happy birthday to your Catholic one!” It’s always sad when people struggle to accept that people don’t share the same faith as them.

        1. Cinnamon Stick*

          I was working mall retail back when malls are a thing and I had a man go on a rant about he said Merry Christmas and only Merry Christmas because that was what the season was all about and didn’t I agree?

          The look on his face when I told him I was Buddhist was priceless.

          Generally, when people say Merry Christmas or Happy Easter to me, I usually say, “That’s kind of you to say,” or “Enjoy your holiday.”

      3. TeaCoziesRUs*

        That’s so sad. One of the most beautiful blessings in the Bible comes from the book of Numbers, which we share with the Torah. It’s the Aaronic blessing:

        ‭‭Numbers‬ ‭6:24‭-‬26‬ ‭NIV‬‬
        “The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you; the Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.”

        It’s sad that Mr. B forgot that… and couldn’t see the shared roots. A blessing is a blessing, whether from the One God or the Triune…. or the multitudes of polytheistic faiths. And so, from one Internet stranger to another, May God bless you and keep you today and always.

        1. Random Bystander*

          Back when I worked in relay (for Deaf and hard of hearing/speech impaired), we were instructed to mirror anything that was said to us as operators but never to initiate. It’s been well over a decade, and I still remember the very kind Jewish lady (voice carry over) who always started her calls with “Operator, would you be so kind as to dial [phone number] for me please?” and she would wish me an easy fast or various other specific religious wishes. I’d just mirror it back (as a Catholic myself), and took her wishes as the same kindness that she’d start the calls with.

    17. Donkey Hotey*

      Ooo! “Therapist Mmmm” I like that.

      I was coming to suggest my homegrown equivalent: Oh.

      Shortly after my wife and I had our first fight, she came to me and said, “I’m sorry, I was a b****h.” I realized that if I said “no,” I would be lying. If I said “yes,” it would start a new fight, so I said “oh.”

    18. Mrs Whosit*

      Many excellent suggestions here. I wanted to add that a “God bless” would get a “have a good day” from me, rather than a “thank you.” That doesn’t work if they’re not saying it as a farewell, but I would bet they often are. (If “thank you” is working for you, great, no worries!)

    19. Pigglewiggle*

      My favorite:

      Them: He needs Jesus!
      Me: (agreeing tone) he certainly needs something!

    20. Tio*

      My favorite go to for this and other situations is “There are certainly all kinds of people in the world!” Neither agreeing nor disagreeing with their views of the people they’re talking about OR what they need to do.

    21. WantonSeedStitch*

      Bland neutrality is a better choice than snark, cheekiness, or outrage in 99% of workplace situations.

    22. commensally*

      My general response to either of those is “Sound like they sure need *something* all right!” and then a subject shift.

      But LW – if customers were regularly coming to me to complain about friends/relatives/coworkers in ways where saying “They need Jesus!” makes sense, I would be uncomfortable as much from the rest of the context as from the religious reference. Are they asking you to agree with you about things you aren’t comfortable agreeing with (at least not from behind a customer service desk!) generally? If a customer said “My ex is shacking up with that hussy, I hope they both get whats coming to them” I’d be uncomfortable and wanting to shift the conversation separate from a religious element. It will probably depend on how gossipy you’re expected to be with customers generally, but if you’re specifically uncomfortable with being asked to agree when customers make disparaging statements, or it feels like certain customers are constantly dumping that kind of thing on you, you might want to practice shifting conversation away from that kind of thing generally.

      1. LaMiAb*

        Yes! I always say that, “they sure need something all right!” It usually shuts down the conversation pretty easily.

      2. OP2*

        Yes! This is exactly it. Most of the products and services we offer are free or very inexpensive and we have easily accesible self-check out options so if they are talking to me at all, they are very much looking for a social interaction. I love that about my work that we provide these things for people who otherwise wouldn’t be able to access them, including the social interaction but lately my “mmm”s have increasingly been met with expectant stares. My question was inspired by a regular pressing until I finally just said “I don’t know what to say to that.” Then it was super awkward and I’m pretty sure we both left the conversation feeling bad about the whole exchange.

        1. commensally*

          Yes! I work at a library and we definitely have a lot of customers come in just to chat, which I’m happy to do, but I am not comfortable either listening to their political opinions (unless it’s really super local politics like “when are they going to finally finish the road construction”) or their intimate personal life conflicts (unless it’s something they’re specifically asking us to provide services for) – pretty much any topic where “they need to find Jesus” would come up (other than the road construction the county is never going to finish) is something I don’t want to chat with customers about. I’m a librarian not a bartender!

          “Mmmm” or “Sounds like they need something!” or other ways of neutral encouragement can be great if the main problem is the J-man but if you’d rather not encourage the topic at all, gently aiming toward a more neutral subject usually works once you’ve got some practice. If there’s something they mentioned in passing that they sound like they could be positive about, that’s usually a good one, or something related to the services you offer, or if they have any plans for the weekend/next day off. Some customers are just going to find a way to be relentlessly negative about everything, but if all else fails you can always mention the road construction.

          Depending on your management, this might even be something you could bring up with them? Maybe not the religious aspect, but that you’d be interested in trainings or guidelines review about conversing with customers – where I am management is very happy to reinforce that we should always try to steer customers away from national-level politics or uncomfortably personal topics, and that coworkers are invited to interrupt anything that seems a little too intense with an “important work question”. There’s also some fairly good customer-handling video trainings available, and especially if you’ve never had any customer handling training at all, it might be worth asking about doing some on work time. But if your management is unlikely to take that well, you can probably at least look for some yourself, or even do some casual roleplay practice with a friendly coworker.

    24. Csethiro Ceredin*

      I used to work in retail in a very conservative, evangelical town and my go-to was a smile, a shrug, and “a light “ah well, we’ve each got our own journey” followed by a quick subject change.

      I’m agnostic and it felt a little like evasion, but that was where I landed to both maintain the required politeness and not outright misrepresent my beliefs.

    25. Dawn*

      I frequently employ phrases in situations where I don’t want to explicitly agree or disagree like, “That certainly sounds like a difficult situation,” or, “I’m very sorry to hear that you’re dealing with that,” or whatever fits there. You can express sympathy for what someone is feeling/experiencing without ever sharing your actual opinion.

    26. Jess*

      I usual reply with a kind “couldn’t we all use some guidance!” and leave it at that :)

    27. GreenDoor*

      I usually say something friendly and true but that also doesn’t commit to a religious view:

      Them: He needs Jesus
      Me: Well, let’s hope he makes the right decision! (maybe that’s turning to faith, maybe it’s something else)

      Them: She needs to read the Bible
      Me: I hope she finds the help she needs. (Maybe that’s from the bible, maybe not).

  2. Lorna*

    LW3:
    You’ve contacted her twice with no response and then went over unannounced, which in my book feels rude.

    In all fairness, if I’m in the middle of doing something and it needs to be finished, I would also make you wait for a bit as I’d need to refocus. Then you’d have my undivided attention.

    1. Adult ADHDer*

      Yes, I agree. Unless there is truly an emergency, it’s not fair for someone to assume a coworker will stop in the middle of something to answer a question. If someone comes by my desk unannounced with a question, I will often ask them to wait a few minutes while I finish the task I was working on. I do this because I have ADHD, and it can be difficult for me to efficiently reorient to a task if I have to switch my attention to something else when I’m in the middle of doing it. I tell people they’re welcome to hang out and wait or to come back later. I don’t see why this is rude?

    2. takeachip*

      Yes OP, your priority isn’t necessarily her priority and I would be really put off if a coworker kept at me like this unless it was a genuine emergency. You were uncomfortable due to your own actions, not hers–you’re the one who chose to track her down and try to basically force her into giving you what you wanted on your timeframe. The way you describe her as an asset you can sell is maybe part of the problem; she’s not just a tool there for your use, but you seem to be viewing/treating her that way in this story. I can imagine someone using the “you stand there while I put my headphones in and take my time on this other task” approach to send a strong signal that you’ve crossed the line, and disincentive you from doing it again. Maybe it’s not that deep, but you should at least take it as a signal that she was busy with her own work and that you were out of line by not giving her space to respond when she was actually available.

      1. Matt*

        I’d love to agree, but it’s also a “know your culture” thing. At my place it is generally usual and expected that you are available for coworkers, be it in person or by whatever means of communication. Phone calls out of the blue are default for most coworkers, and it’s expected to always answer calls whenever possible (and “focus work” is not really an accepted excuse). I always try to gently nudge them towards email or IM / Teams chat, but it has been of no good for decades …

        1. Allonge*

          Sure, but available for coworkers, by definition, does not mean available at any moment, dropping everything else. It cannot – what if you are responding to a previous request from another coworker right now?

          My first job was at a library reference desk, I am very, very interruptible adn am used to reprioritising what I am working on a dozen times a day. But sometimes I need to finish something as there is a ticking clock somewhere, or someone is waiting for it, or I just want to have it off my desk. In these cases, everyone else’s urgencies may need to wait four whole minutes.

          1. AMT*

            Yeah, I’m wondering what the delay between sending the Slack messages and going to her desk was! I suspect the request wasn’t an emergency and could have waited an hour or so. If someone doesn’t reply to a message right away, my assumption is usually that they’re busy, not that they didn’t see it.

            I know people who, when I don’t answer my phone, leave a voicemail immediately followed by a text and email and it drives me nuts. I saw your message, I’m just doing something else! Trying to go around my Wall of Prioritizing basically says, “I don’t care where this falls in your hierarchy of priorities right now, I’m going to bug you until I successfully force you to move it to the top.” At least I mostly work from home and have a spatial barrier between me and the people trying to get ahold of me. The person in the letter is pretty much stuck, which makes it extra rude.

            1. Ally McBeal*

              I used to work in finance and one of our early-career sales guys did this constantly. He would send me an email and show up at my desk sometimes before it even hit my inbox. He did this with every admin he worked with (he sold services from/meetings with people who were supported by the admin team). I tried being direct about it several times and finally had to resort to outright rudeness before it sunk in.

        2. takeachip*

          But would you take personal offense at someone having you wait 3-4 minutes when you interrupted them on the spot? And would you describe 3-4 minutes as “a long time”? OP’s overall take on this situation has me questioning their reasonableness. I’m also in a work culture and in a role where availability is a general expectation, but that doesn’t mean anyone can demand my immediate attention to any issue at any time, and that I’m in the wrong if I keep someone waiting less than 5 minutes.

          1. Brain the Brian*

            I have to agree. 3-4 minutes next to no time in nearly every industry. Maybe live radio / TV, military operations, emergency response, and… air traffic control are the exceptions? But in a regular old office, this is a perfectly reasonable amount of time to wait if you interrupt a coworker. Hell, I’ve waited 10 minutes in my boss’s office while she drafts an email on which she wants my feedback. Three or four minutes is nothing.

            1. Margaret Cavendish*

              Even in emergency response, it still takes time to get from Point A to Point B. If Point A is a fire station and Point B is a burning building, it takes a certain amount of time to sound the alarm, have everyone get dressed and on the truck, and get the truck to the fire.

              Sometimes those 3-4 minutes are critical and the building burns down anyway. Which is tragic, but still unavoidable. Even firefighters are not faster than physics.

              1. Brain the Brian*

                Sure, but no one in that field is going to say “Let me finish this email” if the alarm is sounding. It’s a completely different M.O. than a regular office.

            1. Onelia*

              Well she kind of did. She said “wait while I finish this email” which you have to assume might take a few minutes depending on the complexity of the email and where your train of thought is while working on it.

              If you interrupt a coworker in the middle of a task, you have to accept there might be a wait. Her coworker clearly indicated there might be while she finished her email.

              1. Yorick*

                I wouldn’t say “wait while I finish this email” unless I only had a few words left and expected it to take seconds. I would say “I need a few minutes to finish this email” or “come back in 5 minutes” or something like that.

                1. Everything Bagel*

                  Maybe this teaches OP not to go interrupt their co-workers in person and instead wait for a response to their slack message.

                2. Observer*

                  Yeah, but she had to take her headphones off. That’s generally a clue that “Finish my email” is not just a couple of words.

                3. ferrina*

                  I’ve had moments where I expected the email to take a few seconds and it ended up taking a few minutes. That’s an easy mistake to make. A coworker that will hold a few minutes against you in an non-emergency situation where they interrupted you is being extra.

                4. anon here*

                  Counterpoint: I have made people who came by unannounced wait for a few minutes while I finish an email. I am not unreasonable; stuff just happens.

                5. yadah*

                  “Wait while I finish X” typically implies that someone needs a few minutes to wrap something up.
                  If it’s going to be mere seconds before you’re available you don’t really need to ask someone to “wait”

                6. Bossy*

                  This situation was created by LW, so I think the popped in on while working person should given a pass for not responding perfectly when someone pops in on them while they’re in the middle of something.

            2. fine-tipped pen aficionado*

              I get what you’re saying but you may not realize some folks really struggle with estimating how long a task will take to complete. Like, to a degree that might be difficult to believe if you haven’t experienced yourself. No idea if that’s what’s happening with this coworker, just sharing that there are plenty of perfectly viable reasons that what seems like a simple, obvious solution may not be!

              OP and probably all of us are better served by interpreting folks’ behavior generously and assuming until proven otherwise that other people’s behavior is generally not about you and probably isn’t a clear indicator of some moral failing on their part. It’s more likely just friction between different perceptions of what is rude, what is professional, and what is expected and those perceptions are based on our differences in needs/personality/culture.

              1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

                There’s also just the subjective nature of the perception of time. It probably did feel quite quick to her, since she was trying to wrap something up, but like eons to someone standing in the middle of the office.

      2. Learn ALL the things?*

        Yeah, I would like some clarity on the “she is an added value asset I can sell to clients” aspect of this. What does that even mean?

        OP, do you mean that her *expertise* is an asset you can sell to clients? The way you talk about her, it doesn’t sound like you’re adequately separating the way her expertise is useful to your clients from the truth of your colleague as an actual human being. She’s not C-3PO standing there waiting to be asked a question, she’s a person with other goals and responsibilities she has to meet in any given day and she deserves for her colleagues to respect that and not demand that their project instantly become the most important one on her list.

        1. MarcelPr0ust*

          This, this, this. My ears perked up at that sentence too.

          Largely because I am in a similar situation with a colleague but on the other side. I am the subject matter expert and my business development colleague often acts like I am there to drop everything, often very last minute and with minimal context, to join his client introductions as the token “expert”. As if helping him sell is my main job as opposed to the technical work I need to do on active projects. I am happy to help, but it needs to be for specific engagements, with adequate notice and clarity on my role.

          I’m sure I’ve acted the exact same as OP’s colleague on a few occasions. Responding slowly to messages when I’m in the middle of something, declining calls, asking him to call back later, saying “hold on a few minutes” when he drops by my desk unannounced. And yes, I am trying to send an implicit message that I’m being nagged and pulled into things too frequently, feel my time and expertise are abused by someone who focuses only on his needs and isn’t respecting my role and other responsibilities.

          Wonder if something similar is going on here.

          1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

            This resonates for me a lot as a SME. People in other departments often forget that I have a whole technical job outside of helping them with parts of their jobs, and “my clients wants an answer ASAP” is not as urgent to me as to them (since my priority is not holding up the product release first, and other work second).

            1. History Nerd*

              In my office, the subject experts are typically one person with multiple people approaching them with issues to solve daily. They will do this sometimes with those of us who are asking because they have their own, separate workload on top of all of the requests. Knowing that, I only treat them like the LW treated their colleague if it’s an emergency, and even then, I’m apologetic. If they keep me waiting for several minutes before being able to tackle the situation I am bringing, I assume it’s because the situation they were already dealing with is more important somehow.

        2. ferrina*

          I’m not mad at this language. I’m in a role where I’m the coworker- I’m a value-add, and part of my role is to be available for projects and upsells. Yes, I am literally productizing my knowledge, because that’s the business I’m in (consulting). It’s actually helpful when a colleague says “hey, I’m working on a proposal and I’m including you as a value-add.” That’s direct and clear.

          I don’t think the LW is right to be annoyed that the coworker needed a whole 4 minutes before they could drop what they were doing. But the language that LW used wasn’t an issue for me.

        4. Sparkles McFadden*

          Yes, exactly. I have been the interrupted person on many occasions and, with some people, it was like I was the AnswerBot and they were annoyed that they’d have to wait at all. It was the same progression: I didn’t answer via message or email, so the person would just show up and stand in my doorway. Then, the impatient huffing and sighing would start, often followed by “I just need to ask one question! Just answer my question and then you can get back to what you’re doing.”

          Sorry, LW, but your coworker had other things that were a higher priority than whatever you were bringing her. She put the headphones on to be able to concentrate.

    3. learnedthehardway*

      Agreeing – After two instant messages, showing up and expecting her to drop everything make the OP the rude person in this exchange.

      I’ve often told people that I have to complete a task before I can deal with whatever they need from me. I give them a time frame of when I will be done. I’m not going to lose my train of thought or not reply to an urgent email to deal with someone who doesn’t have the patience to wait for me to get back to their instant message.

      1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        Yeah, if in the middle of writing something with any complexity, if I do t get those minutes to wrap it up I am at risk of losing the train of thought. If I stop anyway, you’ll only get part of my attention as I’m desperately trying to keep from losing the thread and starting over.

      2. Yorick*

        I tend to agree with you, but it depends a bit on how long it’s been since the 2 IMs (and how far apart they were as well)

      3. Escapee from Corporate Management*

        OP2, your colleague was not available. And you entered her space anyway. You’re the one who overstepped.

      4. Festively Dressed Earl*

        Same. When I’ve been in the position of OP’s coworker, having someone interrupt me in person/stand there impatiently means the task I’m finishing takes longer, and not as a means to be snarky or petty. I’m working on a task that involves several different mental threads, someone shows up and makes me drop a couple of those threads, now I have to pick those back up and finish before I lose the rest, which slows me down. But now I’m trying to hurry because there’s someone visibly waiting on me, which makes me fumble a different thread or two and have to undo a knot, slowing me down more… you get the idea. The task ends up taking twice as long as it would have if I’d been allowed to complete it uninterrupted.

      1. Mgguy*

        At a previous workplace where nearly everyone had a private office with a door, I really appreciated that the default was door open.

        It was generally understood that if you were there and your door was closed, it meant “leave me alone right now.” I tended to use that sparingly-about the only regular time during the day was if I was eating lunch at my desk. A closed door because the person was working on something time-critical(academia-proposal deadlines are a big one) would often be punctuated by a big “do not disturb” note on the door. People tended to respect that.

        1. Peanut Hamper*

          Open offices are such a nightmare. Maybe they should have something on their desk that’s red on one side and green on the other, and they can just use that to indicate “closed door/open door”.

          Hmmm….I may have to get a patent on that.

          1. Ess Ess*

            I had a coworker who had a small plastic light taped on top of their monitor. When the light was green, they were available. When red, do not disturb them.

          2. youragonyaunt*

            I once worked in a very open office (as in there weren’t even cubes, just long tables with laptops/desktop computers and chairs) and when there was a deadline crunch, my co-worker and I would print out signs and tape them to the back of our chairs that answered a lot of standard questions (e.g. ‘how was your day?’ ‘what’s the best way to get in touch with you right now?’ ‘what’s the status of item XYZ?’) If the signs were on the chairs, it meant please do not disturb – in particular because we both worked with headphones in – but if there was no signs, it was free game to come up and talk to us.

        2. Forget I'm Here*

          My problem right now is that people in my office forget that they closed their doors!

          However, there’s heavy reliance on chat and e-mail, and anything time sensitive can’t be handled by someone who’s in the office anyway, so I guess downgrade “problem” to “I’m over-sensitive to how other people prefer to discuss ongoing events”.

      2. Venus*

        Yes, I wondered if this is typical for the coworker because it sounds like most of the time she’s available right away and this was an exception. In which case, she had a higher-priority deadline and only needed 3-4 minutes to finish it up. I’m always happy to chat with coworkers who drop by with questions, but occasionally I have an email that requires a quick response and my coworkers know that they have to wait. It does help that I tell them “I reaaaaally have to send this off right now, so feel free to wait here for a few minutes or come back.”

    5. Tibby*

      Indeed. Also, waiting less than five minutes when she specifically told you she needed to finish an email is nothing! I was expecting that OP had had to wait over half an hour from the way they framed the situation. 4 minutes max? That’s not even worth mentioning.

      OP seems to be taking this very personally, I’m not sure why, but it doesn’t seem like a reasonable interpretation of the situation.

      1. Zelda*

        Because, when you are standing and doing nothing, four minutes *feels* like about eight years. To the coworker, trying to craft an email with someone standing over her, it may have felt very rushed, but I get it that OP’s perception is very different. Heck, I can’t even stand up that long without moving around, or my feet and back start to hurt. And with nothing to do but focus on the fact that you are waiting– it can feel interminable.

        It’s just that OP is the one who put themselves in that situation, so they have to accept that they signed up for that experience. Because objectively, it’s NBD.

        1. Sloanicota*

          When I used to have to do this, I’d drag a chair over, FWIW. I agree that OP’s experience of standing made them feel weirder and made the time feel longer than it was.

        2. yadah*

          I get this, but it’s one thing to feel in the moment that 3-4 minutes is foreverrrrrr and another to complain about it after the fact, ya know?

    6. Thegreatprevaricator*

      When I have a question to ask a co-worked and we’re in the office I’ll say I have a question and ask if now is a good time. Why indeed, the other day I asked this and co-worker said she just needed to finish an email. So I said if she wouldn’t mind letting me know when she’s ready , and went back to get on with a different task. I don’t think this is hugely unusual approach!

      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        LW basically did ask, by sending the Slack messages, and got a “no” answer when the messages were unanswered. They then ignored that signal and stopped by anyway, expecting their co-worker to drop everything and help them.

        1. Lurker*

          Right. Maybe the Slack messages were unanswered because she wasn’t at her desk/had stepped away briefly. Or was focused on something else and didn’t notice there were new messages. We use Slack at my office and I have the sound notifications muted because I share a work space and pop ups turned off b/c they’re distracting. I’m normally pretty good about noticing if there’s a dot indicating a new message, but sometimes if I’m deep in spreadsheets or whatever I may not notice for 5 minutes or more.

    7. Choggy*

      I’ve had a specific person on another team send me an email and not a minute later send me a chat they sent me an email or would come to my cubicle to tell me the same! This infuriates me they think I should drop everything else I’m doing and tend to them immediately. I normally respond to both email and chats very quickly, so for them to want me to do it even faster makes me respond even slower. Two can play that game.

      1. Ess Ess*

        Might have been my old coworker. He would send me an email asking me a question to something that would require me to pull out files and research. He knew that it required research. But he would immediately come to my desk the moment he hit ‘send’ so he was always at my desk BEFORE the email even arrived and demanding to know what my answer was to his email. I finally snapped loudly at him to wait for me to respond to his email after weeks of him doing this to me multiple times each day.

    8. El l*

      OP, be really honest: Could it have waited 30-60 minutes?

      Unless it was something truly urgent and important, should’ve stayed in your office after you didn’t get replies. Would you want your colleague showing up in your office when you finally had that 30 minutes to get that behind schedule project sent out?

      1. ferrina*

        And if it was that urgent, then LW should have appreciated co-worker stopping what they were doing to help.

        I’ve had moments where I needed to do what LW did- there was an urgent deadline, and I needed to interrupt someone. But unlike LW, I appreciated that I was interrupting them and tried to ease the burden as much as I could. Waiting 3-4 minutes so that you can get the urgent information that you need is a very small price to pay for success.
        *again, assuming that this actually was an urgent ask. LW doesn’t tell us if it actually is.

    9. Hyaline*

      I tend to agree unless it was really clear from the initial Slack message that this was an urgent (understood by all parties to be urgent) question. I don’t really get the sense from the letter that it was truly time-sensitive, but if it was clearly urgent and the initial Slack message was clear (at 9:30: “I need the dolphin data by 11 a.m. for the call with Hilda”), and adequate time was given before following up on Slack (at 10:15: “I’m going to drop by to pick up the dolphin data unless you can pop it in an email in the next couple minutes”), and it was still ignored–well, then I’d veer more toward the other party needing to adjust to the occasional interruption of their work and really needing to respond on Slack if that’s the office culture.

      1. yadah*

        IMO unless it’s standard for the job to be frequently given time-sensitive tasks, direct-real-time conversation (like in-person or a phone call) should always be the move for urgent requests because there are a million reasons why someone might not see an IM with enough time to accomplish the urgent task (heck, I was using Teams and for no discernable reason there was a span of 3 weeks where it wouldn’t notify me of a new message unless I refreshed the page, and then it just decided to start working again one day lol).

    10. Beth*

      My own take on Teams (or Slack) is that it’s for items that are not time-sensitive. I’d have thought the OP was rude in that situation, although (not being a headphones person) I would probably have said “I need to finish this up. I’ll give you a call when I’m done.”

      I had a boss who would call me or drop in at my busiest times with items that had no time pressure, and it was very valuable for me to learn to tell him he had to wait.

      1. BestBet*

        Interesting, I’d always seen Teams/Slack as for something that needs a response quicker than email (or isn’t complex enough for a whole email) but doesn’t necessitate dropping in or calling. Clearly this varies quite a bit across industries/offices.

    11. AnonInCanada*

      This!

      As in, this is the story of my work life. I may be juggling five different things that require focus. Then someone barges into my office unannounced, demanding a response to “an urgent question” (which is only urgent to the person asking), making me lose my train of thought. You’re darn right they’re not getting any of my attention except a finger pointed upwards (as much as I want that finger to be the middle one, it’s the index finger) until 1) I get my brain back on the track it was on before the intruder derailed it, and 2) finish what I was doing beforehand. Then, and only then, will I give them my attention.

      Fight rude with rude, I say. At least for the repeat offenders. First-time offenders will get a polite “I will be with you in a minute, I need to finish this first.” When you become a repeat offender, then you get the finger.

    12. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      The part that caught my eye,”I know she won’t follow up.” There seems to be an issue with this person. Does she normally not give you what you need? Why is that? Can you talk to your manager about working around this person?

      1. Hyaline*

        I noticed this too—if consistently getting ignored or brushed off is the real problem, that’s the part that probably needs to be addressed. There’s a lot of comments here frustrated at unnecessary interruptions, which is fair!, but the reality of working with other humans is that sometimes you do have to pause to handle other priorities or reshuffle your day to accommodate changing workflow. If this person is consistently inflexible, maybe that’s the real issue.

    13. MCMonkeybean*

      Yeah, the only thing that I do think is a bit odd is putting the headphones back on, but maybe she worried (or maybe she knew from past experience) that OP would keep trying to talk to her before she finished and she doesn’t work well with that kind of interruption.

      I also wonder if she had not intended for OP to actually wait right there in her office, but a few minutes is kind of an awkward amount of time where you’re not really sure if it would be better to have them wait there or ask them to come back.

      1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

        Maybe OP2 has a track record of impatience and interrupting colleagues. We’ve seen many letters here about that type of co-worker and the commentariat often urges the victim to put their headphones on to send a message.

        OP2, please think: are you that person?

    14. Knope Knope Knope*

      Yep. LW 3 struck me as the rude one. If my coworkers felt entitled to my immediate attention based on their own priorities, I would never get anything done. Coworker behaved gracefully IMO.

    15. Mockingjay*

      Just this morning, I received two urgent emails and two separate chats for more urgent things, all simultaneously. I had to pick order of responses, which meant that some people had to wait. I wasn’t ignoring anyone, simply working my way down the list. (I’m on a short break at the moment to gather my sanity. New project, it’s exciting but chaotic at the moment.)

      Work can be frustrating when you have to wait on something from someone else before you can do the next thing, but nearly all jobs and tasks have dependencies like this. Have patience and work on something else in the interim.

    16. Raisin Walking to the Moon*

      OP3 #3 If I may share my perspective during the times I have been in the same situation as my coworker.
      “Dear Ask a Manager,
      I’m easily distracted by noise, and when I get distracted I easily forget what I’m doing. To fix this, I wear headphones at work and I don’t respond to emails or texts until I’ve finished a specific task. It’s the way I work best!
      Recently, a colleague showed up in my office wanting to speak to me. I tried to explain to her that I needed to finish the task I was working on, but she seemed angry. Apparently she had sent two emails within 10 minutes while I was working.
      I understand that her question was important to her, but my task is equally important to me. How can I maintain good relations with my colleague without sacrificing my ability to do good work?”

    17. Cat Tree*

      Yeah. The specific details really matter but it’s possible the LW is the slightly rude one here.

      If they sent the person two messages with a general topic, and about an hour apart, it would be warranted to go to her desk.

      If they sent two vague messages 10 minutes apart and then went in person, that feels more intrusive.

    18. tabloidtained*

      Making a person wait for an excessive amount of time in your office seems more rude, to me.

      In my office, it’s normal to stop by someone’s office unannounced. If the person is busy, they’ll say, “I need a few minutes to wrap something up–can I come find you after?” I find it odd that coworker didn’t even offer LW a seat. Making someone stand around awkwardly for 3-4 minutes is just inconsiderate.

      1. New Jack Karyn*

        I don’t think 3-4 minutes is an excessive amount of time. It sounds like these are cubes, without extra chairs for visitors. If there was a chair, LW could have sat in it.

      2. Jennifer Strange*

        The colleague didn’t make the OP wait, by their own admission the OP chose to wait.

    19. tamarack etc.*

      The ability to occupy yourself with something vaguely useful for 5 min while giving a coworker the space they need to finish something up is a valuable skill.

      I’d made sure I’m not hovering and found something to do nearby. Maybe read a bulletin board I mostly don’t look at, straighten up the tea kitchen around the corner, enjoy the view out of the window, water a plant… (always presuming the “service” type tasks are actually tasks that are in some way informally shared among employees).

      1. Allonge*

        Not to mention – most people in office-type jobs carry a smartphone. Check email or football stats.

  3. LayoffsHappen*

    OP1, you seem to think your former boss had control ok very who was laid off which is just weird. There are so many factors and different ways this gets decided.

    I worked at a place where it was last in, first out and another where the highest paid employees were mandated to go first. I worked at another place where every department had to contribute X% of their staff and another where they decided to eliminate everyone with certain job titles across the company. Layoffs are rarely a reflection of the quality of work. Your former boss clearly valued you, and you’ve now tossed that away by being paranoid and acting weird without giving him the slightest hint why. Plus you shot yourself in the foot by quitting.

    Layoffs are reflections of company needs/values, not the quality of employees.

    Good luck. I hope you learn from this experience.

    1. Siege*

      I worked at a place that laid off a very few highly laid people one year, and another year laid off people based more on anticipated business needs (I was laid off because my department was being drastically reduced as a product line went away). And in the 90s, the same company had an infamously massive layoff that decimated the business for a number of years.

      You were on a layoff list, though not laid off, and are interpreting it (extremely consistently) as deeply personal from your manager to you but there is literally nothing in your account to support your interpretation of events. It’s odd that you’re not looking at the facts more as “someone wanted to cut my position but my manager fought to keep me,” which is a perspective more supported by your recounting.

      1. WellRed*

        I was prepared to hear that the manager hadn’t been great anyhow but “best manager ever” and OP is still in a snit over a layoff that didn’t even happen?! Even if it had, it’s not a personal attack. What’s going on there, OP?

        1. Peanut Hamper*

          For once, I’m glad we don’t have an edit button! I missed that the first time around, but it’s hilarious!

      3. Spero*

        I thought of that too! If she was on a list but was NOT ultimately laid off it sounds more like a case of manager fighting to keep her rather than manager trying to get rid of her, even BEFORE the knowledge of manager asking her to come back to his team multiple times. There are so many other ways to interpret ‘my name was floated for something that didn’t happen’ and she not only picked the worst interpretation, but also was so committed to it she quit the job with no backup?!? Ex if he knew he had to get lay off 3 of a list of 5 and there were 3 slacker candidates, he could have put on 2 of his best he knew he could save to make sure the 3 bad ones went.

    2. The Prettiest Curse*

      When I got laid off, it was purely due to the nature of my role. There are all kinds of factors that go into these decisions, many of which likeky have absolutely nothing to do with your actual job performance. Quitting with nothing lined up in the situation that OP1 was in is getting your retaliation in first. And sometimes that’s a useful strategy, but usually you just end up (metaphorically speaking) accidentally punching yourself in the face instead of knocking out the other person.

      1. SarahKay*

        Yep, I got put on a layoff list because my role was being cut across the company. My manager had no choice over who went on that list, and in fact fought to keep me and managed to get me moved to a new (very similar) role that wasn’t being cut.
        It’s entirely possible that the same thing was happening to OP1; being on a list is not always a choice by a manager.

    3. learnedthehardway*

      Agreed – the OP shouldn’t assume they know why they were on that layoff list. In fact, seeing as their former manager has requested that they join their team at the new employer a couple/few times, the OP should assume it was nothing to do with their performance, and that other factors were in play. OR – it could be that the manager didn’t realize how much the OP was contributing, until they were gone, and then it became evident that the people who looked like they were doing the work really weren’t.

      If the OP is really insecure about the situation, they should ask the manager why they were on the list and hear the manager’s answer. (Personally, I wouldn’t do that, because I’d take it as a major endorsement that the manager asked me to join their team more than once.)

      Do apply, OP – don’t sell yourself short.

    4. Nocturna*

      As Siege mentioned, I think it’s likely that LW1’s boss fought to keep them (which would be a sign that they highly valued LW1!) and that is why LW1 was not, in fact, laid off at the same time as the other employees.

      1. Mangled Metaphor*

        The layoff list may not have come *from* the original manager. HR could have presented him with a list of x many people and been told “pick three”.

        Have you been through layoffs before OP? You’ve got a slightly unhealthy approach to company loyalty and personal loyalty that might be worth unpacking.

        1. yadah*

          “Have you been through layoffs before OP? You’ve got a slightly unhealthy approach to company loyalty and personal loyalty that might be worth unpacking.”

          I hope OP sees this. It’s not even slightly unhealthy, it’s incredibly unhealthy.
          There are a lot of valid reasons to be frustrated and upset about layoffs: company mismanagement, industry shifts changing the nature of your work, layoff choices that lack strategic sensibility, C-suite execs saving bloated bonuses during layoffs etc. But this isn’t a reasonable basis for OPs level of upset.

          Layoffs suck, but it’s not the same as being fired, it’s all about the bottom line and that means it can be totally common for good employees to end up jobless.

      2. straws*

        This is extremely likely, in my experience. At a prior company, I was involved in a couple of small layoff rounds, and there were always at least 1 or 2 employees “recommended” by our upper management that were fought for by those closer to the work and ultimately kept on. It always started as strictly by the numbers until we dragged reality into the mix.

        In another job, I was part of a team that was laid off, and the company came back a week or 2 later because we were important to people closer to our work. Most of the team already had jobs lined up (I worked with some straight up geniuses).

        All that to say it definitely isn’t a reflection of the people being laid off and someone kept from the list was likely fought for (plus if they’re going through layoffs, they’re not going to pass up an easy opportunity to save more money).

    5. Katie*

      My company did layoffs once based off of the bottom 5%, except:
      1. We didn’t know what that list was for. It was just reviews.
      2. Several of the people but there were HIGHLY contentious with lots of arguing from their managers of why they shouldn’t be there. No agreements were made in the meeting but leadership put them there in the end.

    6. Anon for this*

      My workplace recently underwent layoffs and every department was required to assess its staffing holistically, not based on specific targets. That means that some departments lost more people than others, based on business needs. Some people were selected solely because their role was no longer needed, while others were a combination of the role and individual competence. Even within a single layoff or a single department, different people may be selected for different reasons, which may have absolutely nothing to do with how the company views your competence as a worker. You’re personalizing a decision that literally may be just business.

    7. Always an Assistant*

      I agree. It feels passive-aggressive and it’s not serving OP. In fact, it seems to be actively hurting their career progression when the worst that could happen if they applied for the position is not getting it.

    8. el l*

      Agree, and put it this way.

      OP is letting – not even bad luck but a near-miss-with-bad luck – dictate the rest of their career.

      Final thought: Why can’t they take manager at their word and behavior that there isn’t some “major flaw or mistake” in themselves. And in the unlikely event there is after all evidence to the contrary, why is it all on their manager to unpack it.

    9. 2 Cents*

      I was laid off in November bc my position was eliminated—not because of my performance but because they saw a budgetary line for (barely) six figures and decided to reclaim it. I did get severance and vacation paid out so I’m glad I didn’t jump the gun and resign.

    10. MCMonkeybean*

      Yeah, Alison put it in as a parenthetic aside but to me “you weren’t actually laid off while the other three people on the list were” is the most important part of the response. Maybe the boss had a list of people he was supposed to consider and then he worked very hard to make sure OP was *not* one of the people that actually got laid off!

      I understand why seeing your name on that list would feel odd, but OP you have made so many assumptions that you just can’t know are true and in fact have every evidence that they are NOT true! Your boss *didn’t* lay you off and he *did* explicitly tell you on multiple occasions that he would like to work with you again!

    11. Knope Knope Knope*

      Yeah I have had people on my team land on layoff lists for crazy reasons. For instance, right now, my (large, publicly traded) company has a project at several locations. The most successful location is being shut down due to funding issues out of our control, unrelated to team performance (the ad market essentially), and somehow members of my team, at a separate location, who do not work on this project, have their salaries coded to this project. I will get it sorted out. But I imagine they would be shocked to see themselves on that list because I certainly was! However, if I had to lay someone off, I do have an alternative list I would prefer to start with. It sounds like this manager values OP.

    12. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      This is a clear example where communications could address everything. OP1, talk to your former manager. Ask, instead of assuming.

    13. Raisin Walking to the Moon*

      LW1, #1 at my former job, a woman with a specific set of necessary skills came up on layoff lists EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. because the C-Suite didn’t like the idea of only one person doing her job- they wanted everyone in her department to take a sliver of it, thereby saving her paycheck. For 22 years, her department head protected her position, and she recently retired.
      But I only know all this because once, years ago, she saw the proposed layoff list and absolutely panicked. So I understand where you’re coming from, but I promise you, you’re not seeing the whole story.

    14. Dust Bunny*

      Yeah, I have not been laid off but one of my coworkers was and it was 100% because her role was considered the most expendable, not because she wasn’t a good worker or someone didn’t like her. (Our immediate supervisor ended up pitching a figurative fit and we kept her, albeit at reduced hours, until we were out of that financial pit and could bring her back to full-time.) But it wasn’t our supervisor’s idea to let her go in the first place; it was from the ED’s office.

    15. Reebee*

      OP is approaching 50. If you know what’s happening with 50+-aged employees and layoffs/seeking employment, her nervousness is very understandable. Surprised at the brush-offs here, considering.

      1. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

        I think a lot of it is because OP quit with nothing lined up. That’s generally a bad decision if the reason you’re quitting is because you *might* be laid off, but it’s even worse if you’re 50+.
        I get that OP felt being on the list was personal and we’re all saying it probably wasn’t–but even if it was, the smart thing to do is keep your job until you’re *actually* laid off or find another job. Not flounce off. That only hurts you.

        1. Peach Parfaits Pls*

          OP took a potential, possible thing they feared and basically made it happen by stomping off. And now is doing the same thing- turning “I’m worried working for my old boss won’t work out” into a guarantee by being so weird and passive aggressive about it!

        2. Expelliarmus*

          I don’t get the idea that the people at OP’s old company knew that she flounced. It sounds like she resigned in a way that didn’t let people at her old company know that she didn’t have anything lined up.

      2. Star Trek Nutcase*

        I can understand her nervousness, but not the ways in which she chose to handle things. First, a veteran worker oblivious to possibility her being on a layoff list was role based. Second, a worker who considers manager great but chooses to be suspicious of his motives in encouraging her to apply. Third, a veteran worker choosing to not “ask” why instead of continuing to be oblivious and upset. I’d not be surprised to see this behavior in an inexperienced worker, but not an experienced one.

      3. JustaTech*

        Oh, being nervous and upset are totally reasonable. But given the employment market for people >50, seeing your name on a list, but not actually getting laid off, and then quitting without anything lined up makes *less* sense.

        My advice to the LW echoes Alison and several other people – ask the manager! He clearly wants to work with the LW again, but isn’t currently the LW’s boss, so what’s there to lose in asking “Hey, at Old Job I saw I was on the layoff list. Why was that?” No speculation, no assumptions about the LW’s skills, just ask that question and see what the manager says.

    16. no one you know*

      Layoffs are ALWAYS due to finances. Not performance. It’s not the same as being fired.

      1. Lady Danbury*

        Sometimes it’s a combination of both. If I currently have 10 llama groomers and but the business has changed and now I only need 5, I’m absolutely going to take performance into account when decided which 5 will be laid off. There are any number of factors that a business may use when deciding which 5 to keep (LIFO, salaries, etc.), but performance can definitely be one of those factors.

        1. yadah*

          I don’t think they’re saying performance can’t be a factor in who gets cut, they’re saying eliminating weak employees isn’t the goal of layoffs or the reason for them. Ending up on the “potential layoff” list doesn’t inherently indicate anything about job performance.

          1. JustaTech*

            Yes. Even if you work in a place where some managers “manage by layoff” (ie, ignore problem employees because they can just get rid of them in the next round of layoffs), not everyone who is laid off is a problem employee. There will always be good workers who are let go for other, non-performance reasons.

            1. no one you know*

              And those are layoffs, when it’s not performance based but financially based.

    17. Ellie*

      I worked at a place where it was my grandboss who made the list, and I had to check it over. At the top of the list was one of my very best people. After a quick discussion, it came out that he’d mixed up the names… like he thought Bill was Alex, and Alex was Bill. OP is reading way too much into their name being on a list, it could have meant anything. I’ve even seen lists where the ‘must retain’ people were listed next to the redundant ones, with a checkbox separating them.

  4. Observer*

    #3- Colleague made you wait.

    It might be worth it for you to look at it from her point of view. She was clearly involved with something she needed to not interrupt. You messaged twice on Slack, and she didn’t respond. Instead of waiting for later you went to her desk. Rather than just ignoring you she took off her headphones to let you know that she needed to finish something off, then put them back and proceeded to do so.

    If you are a regular reader you can probably imagine the letter she might write. Something like “I was really working on getting something done that needed concentration and focus. My coworker kept on messaging me and when I didn’t respond she came to my desk and insisted on waiting for me till I finished.” Maybe she might add something like “Why can’t people understand that I’m not always going to be available the minute they want me?”

    1. Lorna*

      Completely agree!
      It baffles me sometimes, how the time of one seems to be more important than the time of others

    2. Green Goblin*

      The escalation from Slack to in-person seems a bit much to me. Why not email or phone?

      1. amoeba*

        Eh, in my office that would be the normal way to do it as well, as we essentially all sit next to each other in one big open room. Going over to somebody’s desk is completely normal (calling would be weird), but so is waiting/coming back later if they’re not available!

      2. WellRed*

        If someone isn’t responding to Slack, I really doubt they’d respond to email. Maybe in OPs office, it’s normal to drop by though many commenters seem to take that as an affront.

        1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

          It’s normal to drop by in my office, too, but it’s generally acknowledged that you may need to wait for the other person to wrap up. Fewer than five minutes of waiting after which you get their full attention seems completely normal to me.

        2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          Dropping by is okay, but expecting the person you’re dropping in on to immediately drop everything to prioritize your request is odd!

        3. Antilles*

          IMO, it very much depends on the timeline for those Slack messages.
          If you sent a message at 9 am, another at 11, and heard silence, then yeah, it’s fair to assume email won’t work any better and walk over.
          If those are two messages 60 seconds apart before jumping to “time to walk over”, then that’s not about “not responding”, then absolutely not. Unless this is a building-on-fire level of urgency, it’s perfectly reasonable for the recipient to put off responding to your IM for a few minutes while I finish up my current task, you don’t need to run over to my office and then stand there awkwardly in a huff.

        4. Observer*

          Maybe in OPs office, it’s normal to drop by though many commenters seem to take that as an affront.

          Dropping by when someone seems to be signalling that they are not so available is a bit much. But, that’s not really the big issue. It’s their response to the fact that their coworker didn’t make herself immediately available.

          I have a habit of dropping by people’s offices on a regular basis. But I’ll always ask if they can talk, and if they say that they are in the middle of someone or I see that they are wearing headphones (and therefore don’t even ask), I’ll leave and come back. Maybe I’ll ask in how long they will be available. But parking myself there and waiting would normally be totally unacceptable, much less taking affront that they were *actually doing their work*.

    3. Chili*

      This happened to me recently where I was sent two messages with a document to review. I spent see it because I needed to finish other urgent things. Two minutes later, the colleague showed up with their laptop to show me the document, which was not urgent. At least this person is fresh out of school and learning that their urgencies are not everyone else’s.

    4. Quinalla*

      Yes, it is weird to me how urgently OP is treating this. It does sound like OP has a history with colleague not getting back to them so I can understand being a little more urgent about trying to get the information, but it seems overly urgent. Did you really need it right that minute OP or did you just WANT it right that minute? Sometimes folks get really fixated on one piece of info they are missing instead of moving on to the project items they can do while they wait for the missing info. And was this the first time you had asked your colleague for it or was this kind of a final straw situation where it had gone unanswered for days?

      Either way, I would not be the slightest bit offended by colleague needing to finish what they were doing. I think the headphones thing is throwing you off, but if they are trying to concentrate, putting headphones back on if that is there thing will get their focus item done faster so they can get to your request. If you aren’t one who does focus work with headphones (I don’t either) it may be hard to understand, but think about what you do to get in your focus work mode, most people do something – minimize/close email, take a deep breath, get up early to avoid interruptions, just automatically tune everything else out (this is me), etc.

      1. Observer*

        It does sound like OP has a history with colleague not getting back to them so I can understand being a little more urgent about trying to get the information,

        I’m not even sure that that’s the case. The LW says that this coworker would not “come find” them once they are free. That’s not necessarily being unresponsive. That could be the CW not thinking that it’s on them to track someone down what that person is the one who needs something.

    5. iglwif*

      FULL AGREE.

      I used to have a coworker who would
      – send me an email, then marched into my office to talk about it, sometimes arriving before it had even landed in my inbox, never mind waiting for a reply like anyone else would have
      – interrupt whatever I was doing to help her solve some computer problem she was having (was that part of my job? Yes. Could she have waited 5 minutes? ALSO YES)
      – knock on my office door and then open it without waiting for a reply when I had closed my door in order to focus on something and not be interrupted
      – come into my office, see and hear me talking on the phone (as in the physical landline phone on my desk, with the handset held up to my ear on the side facing the door), and launch into a conversation anyway, then be all ::surprised Pikachu face:: when I put my hand over the receiver and said “I’m on the phone!”

      In a job with many frustrations, she was one of the biggest, because she was excellent at the actual work involved in her job but just a huge PITA to work in the same office with.

  5. With you on this*

    LW#5 I completely empathize with you. I had to relocate and leave my previous position for the same but more boring version. I re-enrolled in another graduate program just to give myself something to work towards on my own time but it isn’t scratching that itch. I work with people who aren’t as ambitious in a culture that’s more than ok with clocking in and working passively until retirement, which is the opposite of the sleep when you die culture I was previously used to. Like AAM said, you’re finding out what you like and dislike. Maybe you could explore outside stimuli like I did and succeed. I also considered teaching or taking a part time role where I could grind.

    1. Artemesia*

      With a less demanding job, you have the luxury of a paycheck and benefits while you continue to explore what you want to do and then to pursue that when you figure it out.

      1. Learn ALL the things?*

        Exactly. I’m actually in a similar position to OP. I left my high stress passion job about two years ago, and now that my job is less stressful, I have mental energy left at the end of the day that I’ve been using to research related fields and take a couple of classes at the local community college to try and figure out what’s next. I don’t know yet if my current job is where I’ll stay until I retire, but for now it’s a steady paycheck while I figure out who I am at this stage in my life and what I want from my work.

    2. Mid*

      I also switched from a “more fulfilling” but higher stress and longer hours role to a more boring job. At first, it was weird. I needed to switch because I was burnt out, but I didn’t know what to do with myself when my job wasn’t fulfilling and taking up all my time and energy. Then, I made the intentional switch to put energy into my hobbies and passions outside of work. I take language classes, I got into new sports, I spend more time with friends and family. I’m overall much happier and have a better life balance, and I’m okay with not caring about my work after I clock out for the day.

      1. kiri*

        This is SO encouraging to hear! I’m thinking of making a similar switch (I’m so fried, I want time for my kid and family and maybe even to have a hobby) – I can definitely imagine that there’s an adjustment period, I like the advice to be intentional about shifting where your energy is going.

      2. Crankypants*

        I am trying to figure out how to balance this as well. My lower stress job doesn’t require any out of work time or mental energy, but I still resent spending the 8-9 hours a day being underutilized, unchallenged, and unenthusiastic about the work. I’m trying to figure out how to get my mind in a better place during those 8 hours and would love any advice!

      3. Jack Straw from Wichita*

        Coming from a former teacher–it’s weird going from a job that seemed like your entire life was wrapped up in it to… a regular job. One that ends at 5pm and doesn’t carry into your evenings and weekends.

        Even though my supervisor once wrote in an observation: “With every word she says, every action she takes, every plan made–you can tell Jack Straw was born to do this,” and I won the district-wide teacher of the year award in my last year teaching.– I will never, ever go back into teaching. I’ve seen the light and I love it, but that took a good 2-3 years to fully embrace.

        I still self-identify as an educator, just in a corporate setting now. But I’m able to serve on two different NPO boards, cross-stitch (which I haven’t done in almost 30 years), picked up painting, joined a book club, rescued a dog, travel more, and generally spend more quality time with my family and friends.

    3. Beth*

      I also feel you. I’m in my first job post-passion-field as well. Mine is an entire switch for me rather than an adjacent field, so there’s some inherent challenge in that–but it’s not something I’m inherently passionate about or even all that interested in. It’s just a job.

      It helps me to remember that this isn’t a forever job. It’s a for-now job. It doesn’t have to be exciting, and I don’t have to love it. It’s not that there are no standards–it needs to give me income, and I have to not hate it. But the bar for ‘good enough’ is lower than when I was striving for a “this is my shot at my dream career” job, and that’s OK.

      It also helps to remember that even if this isn’t my forever job, it’s still a useful job for me. By giving myself a lower stress, lower pressure work environment, I’m giving myself time and space to build skills and figure out the nuances of where I want my career to go. And by having higher income for fewer hours worked, I’m giving myself space to focus on my personal life–my home, my family, my friends, and my hobbies.

    4. Spero*

      I made the same switch a few years ago, and after some time in the role I added a training/speaking at conferences aspect to it. I only do it a few times a year but it gives that same rush of speaking without the stress of daily performance

  6. Alison*

    “They need Jesus” has moved into plenty of people’s vocab, particularly some Black people’s vocab as a general statement of disbelief at someone’s behavior. I’d bet it’s used non-regiliously and ironically in equal measure as people using it religiously. (Based just on my friend group, it’s only used ironically!) is It’s not like…a serious religious argument or citing of biblical verse. I’d bet for 7/10 people – It certainly isn’t looking for an affirmation of the value of Jesus or anything like that. Unless it’s someone like talking about like having sex before marriage or some other traditional values-based judgement, it’s basically a way for people who don’t swear to go “oof, that guy who was just yelling at you sure was an a-hole!” or “f-ing kids these days!”

    1. learnedthehardway*

      If someone were to say that to me, I would likely respond with “I don’t judge…” and leave it at that. Not quite as formal as quoting the Bible verse about not judging people and not as direct as saying, “YOU shouldn’t judge”, but implies the same thing.

      I used to do something analogous with an inveterate gossip when they would ask for information about people or try to tell me things I didn’t want/need to know: ie. “It’s none of MY business”. Served to shut the person down while making it not about them gossiping but about me not gossiping.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      Yeah I’d probably try to hear it in the same vein as “they need a miracle”; if you say that it doesn’t necessarily mean you believe in miracles. Or, you might.

    3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I agree this is likely, and it certainly might be helpful for LW to hear it in that way to reduce their discomfort.

      But it’s part of a wider phenomenon that Alison has described multiple times, where Christianity is a cultural default. *Of course* you celebrate Christmas, eat fish on Fridays, know the parable of the Good Samaritan, etc. This has the potential to annoy both non-Christians and Christians, so it’s preferable to choose non-religious language in non-religious contexts!

      1. Star Trek Nutcase*

        I think being raised Christian and growing up around predominantly Christians resulted in lots of words & phrases becoming embedded in my vocabulary. However, as an adult & atheist, these have long lost any religious meaning and are simply words to me.

        As for annoying others, frankly I don’t care. We each can choose to be offended or not, doesn’t mean I must change to suit others’ ideas – while understanding there might be consequences. Work is one such place where I recognize the need to moderate my speech when dealing with others in power.

    4. Brain the Brian*

      I am one of these people. I also definitely use “Jesus Christ” as an interjection despite having no religious beliefs whatsoever. I take Jesus’s name in vain enough that if it ever comes to it, I really *will* need his help.

      That said, it’s certainly possible that the LW is in an area where more people say these things in a sincere, religious way. And I certainly don’t say them outside my friend group — I wouldn’t say them to a store clerk or a customer service representative.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Apparently there is theological debate as to whether “in vain” means cursing, or only the more narrow “let (insert power) smite me right now if I am wrong in this claim,” which is usually made in the belief that a lightning bolt will not immediately shoot from the sky.

        1. RagingADHD*

          A lot of theologians actually interpret it as claiming authority / validation you don’t have, as in making false claims about what the Bible says, or misrepresenting God’s character or will.

          Which, if true, would encompass a whole lot of religious people who would never dream of using cuss words.

        2. TeaCoziesRUs*

          I’ve taught my kids not to use Jesus’ name, particularly as a cuss word, because do you REALLY want the attention of your deity when you feel the need to cuss? Names have power. Someone saying your name is going to catch your attention. Someone saying Jane F’ing Doe when their computer isn’t working or traffic is stalled while Jane is in the car is going to hurt Jane’s feelings. If you’re ranting to God, a la Job, then yes, pour out your frustrations! But don’t catch His attention when you don’t want it. :D

      2. Turquoisecow*

        I will say “Jesus Christ” or “Jesus #*@&ing Christ” when frustrated or surprised or whatever, like “holy cow!”. I was raised Catholic but do not really believe nowadays. I kind of try not to use it around my Jewish in-laws, but I don’t think they’d be offended if I did, it’s just a phrase.

        1. Raisin Walking to the Moon*

          @turquoisecow as a Jewish woman, I also like to say “Jesus #*@&ing Christ” specifically when I’m annoyed or stub my toe. Using it as a curse is way more likely to upset your blood family than your in-laws, you know?

          2. anon here*

            As a fellow tribemate, I had to STOP using it as a curse around my religious Greek Orthodox friend because she found it offensive. Some (more religious) Jews might differ and have a distaste for it, but most of the Jews I know on the quasi-secular end would have no problem with it.

          3. iglwif*

            Same. It doesn’t sound blasphemous to me the way it would to a Christian but it has an excellent rhythm for expressing feelings such as “I just stubbed my toe and it hurts a lot” or “this person talking on my TV right now is a complete twat”.

    5. TheBunny*

      This was my thought too. I wonder if OP is taking them too literally.

      They need to find their Bible really is a way of saying they are way off track, out of line or need to stay in their lane.

      If nothing else, maybe OP can try to hear then in this way and not in the religious one they feel they are meant?

      “Come to Jesus meeting” is the one I hear most often, but it’s not meant in a religious way at all.

      1. Empress Ki*

        Would you find it equally non religious, if the word Bible was replaced by Bhagavad Gita or Quran ?

        2. Miss V*

          I can’t speak for TheBunny, but yes, I do personally find all those remarks to be religious, and as an atheist who I wouldn’t use them myself. I’m also aware that for many people (the kind who don’t get into debates on advice column websites) probably aren’t thinking that deeply about it and are just using a common phrase.

          The point isn’t wether or not I/ the LW think the phrases are religious. The point is if the intention of the person they are speaking to is actually to proselytize, and that they may find these interactions less fraught if they assume the person isn’t and respond accordingly.

        3. loggerhead*

          Yes, actually, I would. I mean, a lot of Westerners own these and appreciate them as works of literature with great meaning and perspective on what’s important in life.

        4. Techno Support*

          I would assume they were translating an expression from a different language/cultural framework than I’m used to. Like, if someone said “Sounds like someone is due for a visit to the gurdwara”, I would definitely remember that, but I wouldn’t necessarily think “wow this person must be a super-religious Sikh!”. Religion has an impact on culture and language.

        5. K8T*

          Yes if the term was still understood to be colloquial – which “they need Jesus” has certainly become.

        6. Brain the Brian*

          Pretty much every Arabic speaker in the world says “Alhumdullah” (“Thank God”) and “Inshallah” (“God willing,” basically implying “hopefully”) multiple times an hour, whether they mean them religiously or not. The latter, especially, is often said with a sarcastic tint to imply that you don’t really think something will happen.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        Honestly, that still seems kinda inappropriate for the situation to me. A client coming up and talking to a stranger about how somebody is out of line seems like something that would make the hearer uncomfortable too.

        There are situations where I can imagine it being reasonable, like the customer before them was being really rude to the member of staff and the next customer says “wow, that person was really out of line/needs a come-to-Jesus meeting,” but I can’t imagine that happening very often.

        Though obviously, I don’t know the LW’s particular work circumstances and they may be in a position where it is reasonable for customers to discuss such complaints with them.

        1. DJ Abbott*

          There are a lot of people who behave inappropriately to service workers. They don’t have anyone else to talk to, and the service worker is there… IMO The best way is to acknowledge them without getting involved in their problems.

        2. Someone Online*

          I live in a chatty area of the country. By the time you check out at the gas station, you and the clerk have covered the weather, best restaurant in the area, types of green beans to can, and Charlene’s rash.

        3. TeaCoziesRUs*

          Ehh. I grew up in and around enough small towns to know that grocery stores and post offices are the best places to know everything going on.

          1. Irish Teacher.*

            I don’t think the problem here is that they are telling the LW what is going on; it’s that they are criticising people to her and seem to want her to agree with that. I didn’t even think of it being a small town, which in my mind makes it significantly worse. I assumed they were people she wouldn’t know, which is still kind of awkward but if they are people she might know, then…yeah, that strikes me as pretty problematic.

            There’s a huge difference between “did you hear Johnnie is after getting divorced?” and “Johnny needs to read his Bible.” The first is fact, the second is being rude about somebody who isn’t even there and it puts the LW in a bit of an awkward position.

            The former is generally what one would expect in chatty places.

      3. JustaTech*

        I’ve also heard several non-Christian people use the phrase “come to Jesus” when they clearly are using is as an idiom as “have a very serious meeting and re-think of a situation/your life”.
        I think it has a specific religious meaning, a cultural religious meaning, and a secular cultural meaning that is still rooted in the dominate religion of the culture.
        It’s all very interesting!

    6. Mel99*

      I feel that’s a very Christian normative thing, though. Someone who is religious and is not Christian might find it very uncomfortable, even though you don’t. I think it’s fine to say among friends ironically, but maybe not professionally.

        1. ferrina*

          Yeah, but the point still stands. If you can remove the unnecessary religious references from conversations with strangers/people who are required to be around you and may or may not share your religious beliefs, it’s a really easy way to make things more comfortable for other people.

          Yes, you need to do the (minor) mental labor of figuring out and practicing synonyms. But again, a very, very small price to pay for inclusivity and ensuring different religions don’t feel excluded.

          1. Nodramalama*

            But are you suggesting that LW lecture these customers on that? LW isn’t talking about jesus, strangers theyre interacting with are.

    7. Hyaline*

      I mean, it kinda seems from the context that these are oversharers anyway, regardless of the language they use. “My brother is in jail again and his wife won’t stop calling me about their cricket infestation, but my hemorrhoids are acting up so I can’t get over there with my salt gun…they need Jesus.” “I’m so sorry…your total is $24.77.”

    8. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Yeah, this. For lots of people, it’s basically just a colloquialism for “they shouldn’t have done that”, etc.

      1. lemonade*

        It’s funny to read this today, because my family is Jewish and about an hour ago my husband said he needed to have “a come-to-Jesus” talk with someone at work (because there was some missing documentation and it needed to be done asap or there would be consequences). It’s so context-dependent!

        1. AlexandrinaVictoria*

          I had a boss who, whenever they used that phrase around me, apologized and said “Come to Moses meeting!”

          1. New Jack Karyn*

            LOL! There are so many ways that him saying that could land wrong–I’m choosing to believe that it was all light-hearted and goofy and everyone was fine.

            1. amoeba*

              Yes, this! The examples mentioned here would be super unusual – and definitely religious – to me, whereas a “come to Jesus meeting” would just read as a colloquialism. Even more so for stuff like “oh my God” or “Jesus f*ing Christ”, which have been mentioned above – especially as these are actually more likely to be a problem with religious people/considered blasphemous. Not really the same thing at all, in my ears…

          2. Emily Byrd Starr*

            That reminds me of when I went to Jewish summer camp, and whenever we sang “Fire And Rain” by James Taylor, the music counselor switched the line “Won’t you look down upon me, Jesus, you got to help me make a stand” to “Won’t you look down upon me, Moses!”

    9. Arthenonyma*

      It’s always interesting to me which bits of religious vocabulary get adopted into general vernacular. I’m a non-American atheist but I hear the phrase “come to Jesus moment” as a relatively neutral bit of metaphor – whereas both these examples hit me as specifically loaded and intentionally religious, because they’re not part of my regional vocab. So I think this context is important!

    10. Student*

      Sincere question:
      Aren’t you at all concerned that the core figure of a major religion is being treated as if he’s unconnected to religion?

      I’m an atheist. Part of why we have reactions like the LW to comments like this is because Jesus is the basis of Christianity, so references to Jesus are inherently connected to Christianity when we hear them, as non-Christians. Christmas and Easter are core holidays to Christians, similarly.

      When you treat references to religion as if they are secular, then you are either trying to live in the illusion that everyone believes in your religion by erasing the rest of us, or… you are erasing the meaning of your own religion’s significant symbols. If it’s the latter, which is what you’ve described as far as I can understand, then… what’s keeping you attached to the religion that you are down-playing and diminishing, but not actually letting go of?

      1. Observer*

        In theory, I agree with you.

        But for the most part it doesn’t really reflect how people talk and think.

        So yes, as a religious Jew, I find this kind of thing rather uncomfortable. Ans sometimes it *is* offensive. But in the day to day, most people using a lot of these phrases are not attempting to proselytize or even discuss religion, for better or worse.

        Is that a sign of how anyone who is not Christian is marginalized? Sure. But recognizing that doesn’t really help anyone deal with the daily grind of dealing with a public that’s overwhelmingly (culturally) Christian.

      2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        I’m Christian, but I don’t use the phrase, so I’m not the one erasing the meaning – somebody else is.

        And in the category of blasphemy, this is pretty low on the scale. So on a practical level, I’m not going to waste energy trying to call out that sin in others when it happens in casual conversation (and lets not even go into judge not lest ye be judged territory). If this were somebody I spoke with on a regular basis, then I might tell them that I didn’t like the phrase and explain why.

      3. New Jack Karyn*

        I’m also not a believer (of any faith), but to me, this is on the level of “In God We Trust” on US currency. I don’t like it much, and wish it wasn’t the case. But it’s such a low level that I just don’t have the energy to get worked up over it.

        If the customers were insisting that OP divulge what church they go to, or ranting about ‘sinners’, I’d have a different take.

  7. Allonge*

    LW3 – in addition to the concentration / focus issues, she also could have been on a deadline. Some things need to be sent immediately (just like your problem seems to have been urgent) or by noon to make it to the review cycle or whatever.

    You don’t get to demand any-moment attention from peers (well, anyone really).

    1. Katty*

      I feel that’s a bit harsh to the LW. They asked whether their colleague had a moment and would presumably have left if they’d said no. That’s not demanding any-moment attention, that’s a normal work interaction when you work in person.

      I agree it’s totally fine for the colleague to finish what they were doing before shifting focus, but I also think it’s fine for the LW to have tried to get an answer in person.

      1. Allonge*

        When I asked if I could have quick word with her, she asked me to wait while she finished an email. She then put her headphones back on and made me wait 3-4 minutes while she finished typing.

        I don’t think we are reading this the same way. What else do you think the coworker should have said to clarify she was not available for the next few minutes?

        I agree it’s ok to check on someone in person, especially if there is an urgency, I just don’t see why OP’s urgency overwrites coworkers’ urgency or need to finish something.

        What is a bit worrying is OP’s remark on if they left, coworker would never have responded, but then waiting there for some minutes is the price to pay for getting to sell whatever OP is selling.

        1. Awkwardness*

          but knew if I asked her to find me when she finished, it would never happen and I needed this info.

          I wonder about this remark too.
          It could be that the colleague is forgetful, does not like OP or is too busy so things fall through the cracks.
          But it also could be that it would happen, but OP is too impatient and wants to be prioritized immediately.

          2. Colette*

            I’ve worked with someone who never replied unless I copied his manager – and then I’d get an answer within 5 minutes claiming he was just about to send it.

            It’s possible the colleague doesn’t like IM, or that she doesn’t think what the OP is working on is a priority for her (whether that’s true or not) or that she doesn’t like to share information or that she would have answered when she finished her email whether the OP was there or not.

            Maybe this was a low-priority thing for the colleague, but it can still be a roadblock for the OP, and it’s reasonable for her to try to get it resolved. It’s probably not in the best interests of the company to have the OP sit idle for days waiting for a response.

            1. Jennifer Strange*

              It’s possible the colleague doesn’t like IM, or that she doesn’t think what the OP is working on is a priority for her (whether that’s true or not) or that she doesn’t like to share information or that she would have answered when she finished her email whether the OP was there or not.

              Or (more likely) the colleague was working on something that was a higher priority and wanted to finish that before responding the OP. Not sure why we’re veering into fanfic territory here.

              Maybe this was a low-priority thing for the colleague, but it can still be a roadblock for the OP, and it’s reasonable for her to try to get it resolved. It’s probably not in the best interests of the company to have the OP sit idle for days waiting for a response.

              Sure, I don’t think anyone is saying it’s not reasonable for the OP to want to get an answer. What’s unreasonable is going over to the colleague, being told they need to finish something first, and then feeling disrespected because they choose to wait by the colleague’s desk and it takes 3-4 minutes for the colleague for finish. Also, there’s nothing indicating that the OP was sitting idle for days here?

          1. Jennifer Strange*

            The co-worker may not have known exactly how long the email would take to finish, and when she asked the LW to wait until she had finished her email the LW could have said “Okay, come grab me when you’re done” but decided to stay because in their mind if they didn’t the task wouldn’t get done. Maybe they were correct on that front, but the point is the co-worker said she could talk after her task was finished and the LW decided to stay and hover instead of just coming back in a few minutes. The awkward is on the LW here.

          2. sparkle emoji*

            I mean, didn’t she? “Wait until I’m done with this email” isn’t that different from “Wait 5 minutes”, at least to me.

            1. MCMonkeybean*

              I do think 5 minutes is a much longer time than I personally would have expected if someone told me they were just finishing an email. I don’t think I’ve ever written an email anywhere near that long. But they might not have realized how long it would take, or they might not have expected OP to just keep standing right there, or OP might be overestimating how much time it was.

              1. Allonge*

                I don’t think it was necessarily a time indication. OP was bugging this person already. OP showed up at her desk and made the choice to stay there until they got an answer.

                Some emails around here can eaily take 30 minutes to draft.

              2. yadah*

                “I don’t think I’ve ever written an email anywhere near that long”

                It’s not always about the length of the email so much as it can be getting the tone/wording/information correct that is time-consuming. I’ve written 3 sentence long emails that took me 20 minutes to craft because I’m negotiating with someone and need to consider how I’m countering or I’m dealing with a delicate topic and the phrasing is super important and requires consideration from a relationship and legal perspective etc etc.

                If I tell someone to wait while I finish an e-mail I think anything 5 minutes or less is a perfectly reasonable amount of time to wait.

        3. New Jack Karyn*

          What OP actually wrote is: “if I asked her to find me when she finished, it would never happen”

          I take that to mean that the coworker won’t leave her desk to come around to OP to find out what OP needed–not that she wouldn’t ever respond at all. I’d be annoyed with a same-level colleague who told me to come find them, after they’d interrupted me, to find out what they want me to do for them.

      2. Ellis Bell*

        I agree, people are trying to pick a side to blame instead of seeing the overall issue. In my opinion, both OP and the colleague did the same thing to cope with a work flow issue; it’s just that they had different workflow issues. OP wanted a colleague’s focus time to pause so they could get communication and the colleague wanted OP’s communication attempts to pause so they could complete something they were focusing on. OP is aware that you would usually give the colleague a few minutes, so everyone gets what they want but they’ve tried this before and it doesn’t work. The issue is that they don’t seem to have compatible workflow and if OP doesn’t want to either stand over the colleague, or give up and go away without an answer, they need a third option, like a big picture discussion of how they seem to be interrupting the colleague’s work and if there’s a better way to get an answer. It could be the colleague really just does need them to wait a moment, but it’s worth checking for piece of mind.

        2. Hyaline*

          And while I do think quite a bit hinges on whether the OP’s question/need was truly urgent/had a short deadline, it’s also one of the tricksier things about working with others–determining priorities that are shared vs your own. Both people here could have determined that their Thing was the Thing of Utmost Importance–and both could have been right and wrong!

          1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

            A lot is also “how long does OP’s request take to address”. It’s different if it’s “send me the presentation on X” where it only takes a minute vs. “can you put together a report on Y” that would take a few hours.

        3. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

          We don’t know if doing this task for the OP occasionally is one of the coworker’s official job duties, or is just general friendly support for coworkers that she’s only supposed to fit in when she has time.

          1. New Jack Karyn*

            It does say that they’re working on a project together. That sounds like it’s official, even though this particular project might only be 5% of her workflow.

      3. Happy meal with extra happy*

        Don’t forget – we’re in the land of AAM comments, where a significant portion of commenters loudly believe that any non-asynchronous form of communication should be avoided at all costs.

        1. Non-Toxic Commenter*

          This made me chuckle! I wonder if, at some point and in the kindest possible way, Alison would consider a round up of “common comment concepts”, or some such. Similar to what she says about messed up work places causing messed up views of work, the comment section can give us a warped view of the working world! See also “HR is never helpful” and “no managers have good intentions”.

        2. Allonge*

          At the same time though, showing up at someone’s desk does precisely nothing to the fact that that person is working on something.

          I think showing up in person is a great option! Odds are, it will not override priority work being done at that desk.

  8. Nodramalama*

    OP1 I understand that emotionally it can feel the same, but I think you seem to be conflating being laid off with being fired or being put on a PIP. lay offs, and especially a LOT of lay offs can affect any number of employees that are not performance related. As Alison said it could have been role related, it could be related to pay, it could be that your boss didn’t put your name on there at all

    1. Myrin*

      Yeah, I got the same feeling.

      And I also want to reiterate something Alison mentioned as well: OP didn’t get laid off! She was on a list where everyone else (in her grouping, I’d assume; it doesn’t sound like the list was only four people in total) did get laid off but she didn’t. It honestly sounds much more like someone – possibly the manager she’s so distrustful of – fought to keep her specifically.

      Like, IDK, maybe there was something on the list that made OP’s interpretation reasonable – like it was titled “These people suck and I never want to see them again – OP’s manager” – but she seems to be so incredibly stuck on the mental path/reasoning she details in the letter that I somehow doubt that was the case.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      Emotionally you feel surplus to requirements, even when you know it’s a business decision. Add in the fact that OP accidentally saw what amounts to a secret list instead of this being a potential layoff round that were being openly discussed and you’ve got a recipe there. Things do loom large when you’re fretting over them alone. Though I don’t understand why OP didn’t point out that they could see their name on the list though; they didn’t do anything wrong and could have gotten useful feedback on the spot about what was going on; that they wanted to keep hold of the role if at all possible, as well as the point Alison made about severance.

    3. londonedit*

      Yep. I think the way it’s framed (legally and culturally) here would be a good way to look at it – we don’t call it being laid off, we call it redundancy, and it’s legally the *position* that is redundant, not the person. It can’t be personal or the company is risking getting itself in hot water with an employment tribunal. Of course, various factors can be considered, but generally it has to be ‘we can no longer afford to employ five teapot makers so three positions are being eliminated’ or ‘we can no longer justify an in-house teapot design team, so we’re outsourcing and making the teapot team here redundant’ or whatever. It’s emphatically not a firing or being ‘let go’ or whatever, it’s redundancy and it shouldn’t carry any stigma.

      1. doreen*

        I think the reason it’s looked at a little differently in the US is because of the “we have to eliminate three of the five teapot maker positions” situation. In general, when there isn’t a union contract or company policy that specifies exactly how it happens , the employer can choose which three get eliminated for any reason that’s not illegal. The three can be chosen based on seniority or performance or it can even be based on a different position being eliminated – for example, if three teapot manager positions are eliminated, the teapot managers might fill the teapot maker positions and the teapot makers might fill the teapot painter positions so that in the end, the manager positions were eliminated but the people who had been painters were actually laid off. ( this is most common in union environments but also happens in non-union environments). So sometimes it has nothing to do with the person and sometimes it does.

    4. BadMitten*

      I really like Alison’s response here—OP’s insecurities have lead them to make what appear to outsiders to be bad career decisions. Why give up severance (or even just unemployment)? This is not to sound judgmental or negative at all but OP may want to talk to a therapist about this. I struggle with insecurities too—but don’t wade through the tea leaves trying to understand *exactly* what someone thinks of you. Take them at their word—it’s tough but practice helps.

    5. New laptop who dis*

      My industry has layoffs ALL THE TIME. I’ve been laid off from several jobs and, while annoying, it’s not a reflection on me or my worth. It’s just the way the cookie crumbles in this field.

      1. I Have RBF*

        This.

        I had s layoff a year from 1982 to 1986. In tech I have had frequent layoffs as well, about every year or two.

        My last one was definitely LIFO – I had the least seniority on my team – 4.5 years, and everyone else was 10 or more. So when they had to cut 10% due to Covid budget shortfall, I and other newer folks got cut.

      1. New Jack Karyn*

        Sure, they have to cut down from 10 llama groomers to 7 because of a seasonal drop in demand. But the decision on which 3 groomers get laid off could very well be due to performance. The list OP saw had her and a couple of folks who were not good at their jobs. I understand why that could be upsetting.

        But she then took that upset and blew it all up.

  9. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

    OP1 (manager wanted to lay me off) – I would be upfront in this situation and next time it comes up (because it would be weird to bring this up out of nowhere) I’d say something like: “honestly, the reason I’ve hesitated in applying when you approached me about those roles is because of the layoff situation at prior company x. I don’t know whether you knew at the time but I found out that my name was on the layoff list when Andy, Bee and Charlie were laid off and it did make me re-evaluate my value to the company. I’d be worried if I took the position you’ve approached me about that we could have a repeat of that situation in the future and I’d be high on the list to be laid off again”.

    This may be a fallacy, as your current role may or may not be more layoff-resistant than the one the manager wants to recruit you for.

    1. SAS*

      Yeah, I would take this route too. LW1 has made a whole lot of assumptions about the situation without ever having a conversation with someone.

      As another commenter mentioned what if LW finds out the scenario was that the manager fought to save their position due to their value to the company?!

    2. WoodswomanWrites*

      A big yes to talking it out! OP, you have created a scenario–he has a low opinion of me and might not keep me on–based on an interaction that never actually happened. He never said anything like that, you just happened to see a note with no context.

      It makes sense that the “best manager you’ve ever had” is baffled that you won’t respond to his encouragement, because he has no idea you’re having this one-sided conversation in your head. Please talk to him about it. It can’t be worse than carrying this burden of doubt for two years. I’ll bet you can dispel the entire thing in less than 5 minutes, and then step into working with him again and not have these feelings niggling at you anymore.

    3. Snow Globe*

      I wouldn’t recommend that. I think there is a good possibility that the LW may have misinterpreted what they saw (e.g., the list was everyone whose role might be eliminated and the manager was asked to select three). LW may never have actually been at risk. If the LW tells the former manager that they quit the company with nothing lined up because of a mistaken belief, that might call their judgment into question. Better to just say that they weren’t quite ready to leave their current position, but they’ll consider it next time there is an opening.

        1. Expelliarmus*

          I think it’ll be pretty clear that’s the reason they quit if they say that they saw their name on that list shortly before they left.

      2. EvilQueenRegina*

        The other one that comes up quite often here as an argument against sharing info about layoffs if you do come across it is that things can change. Even if OP was on a list at one point, there was always the possibility that circumstances would change and OP wouldn’t have been let go.

    4. NotQuiteFramedRight*

      This framing puts the former boss in an untenable position. Every employee should assume they are in the pool of people who could be laid off at any time. Every boss knows even their best employees can be laid off at any time. Framing the discussion this way leaves any boss worth their salt in the position of having to say you may be laid off from this position and puts forward the OP’s odd reaction to layoffs and makes it this boss’s problem. Frankly, I would no longer want to hire someone who said this to me.

      It may well be too late to do this without raising eyebrows given the number of opportunities you’ve already had, but if you must, I would frame it something like:

      I saw a list at our old company that had me on your layoff list and in the moment made me question whether I was valued. After time to think about it, I realized there were many reasons I could have been on that list, many of which have nothing to do with your opinion of me. I know it’s taken me a while to work through this, but it was my first experience with layoffs.

      But I might just respond more positively next time – if there is a next time – then bring it up later after some time at the new company if you get the job as a kind of inside joke.

      Good luck!

    5. Colette*

      I wouldn’t. It probably wasn’t the manager who put the OP’s name on the list, and it’s highly likely the manager has no control over whether layoffs happen at the new place.

      Some industries have a lot of layoffs; it’s not personal. And a relatively low-level manager can’t change that.

      As others have mentioned, it’s possible that the manager fought for the OP to not be on the list – but even if she didn’t, she’s not trying to hire the OP so that she can lay her off. She’s trying to hire her because she values her.

      The OP’s anxiety/bitterness is hers to manage.

  10. Recovering the satellites*

    OP#1 layoff self doubt

    *If* you’re someone who tends to self-protect to the degree of “I’ll assume the worst case possible all the time to lessen the hurt for when it eventually happens” and you’re going to continue letting this eat you up regardless, you may as well just be frank with your former manager and ask (unemotionally) about the layoffs.

    You could potentially clear things up and have a real shot at working with your former manager again, but if the conversion doesn’t go so well hopefully you have security in your current position so any blowback affect you, though I’m fairly sure at worst it would land neutrally.

    Much luck to you, OP. You have a gentle heart in a harsh world.

  11. SleeplessKJ*

    OP #1 also please be aware that your manager may not have made the layoff list. He might have been given the layoff list by HR, or his manager. Like Alison said, often layoffs have nothing to do with the individual and everything to do with the position or where they need to cut costs. Your manager seems eager to work with you again – that tells me he found you to be an asset.

    1. snowfall123*

      For all LW knows, the manager may have been given a list from above to cut out people and the manager fought tooth and nail to prove LW is a star performer at the company and keep them!

      Given the level of doubt LW has for their former manager, I would consider taking the advice of other commenters and just outright discussing your reservations due to what happened at the previous company.

      1. Friday Hopeful*

        This was my thought! Especially looking back now and knowing the manager wants you on their team, this is definitely a likely scenario!

  12. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    #3 Your were very pushy – messaging her twice and then visiting her in person. When someone doesn’t respond, they are either not at there desk or too busy for you right now.

    Sounds like she is a key person with many demands on her time and your work priorities are not the same as hers. She signalled this fairly politely this time, but may be more blunt next time.
    Back off and be patient – or she may start putting you right to the back of her work queue.

    1. Lexi Vipond*

      Yeah, if I’ve turned up at your desk it’s because you’ve already been ignoring me for days if not weeks. You don’t get to unilaterally decide that you’re preventing us from meeting organisation-wide deadlines, or letting down the hundreds or thousands of people who depend on them being met, just because you think you are personally too important to respond to a question from a person like me.

      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        That sounds like your personal work situation, not the OP’s.
        The OP wrote nothing about waiting days already, or even if the support task was part of the coworker’s normal duties or just nice to have – “an added value asset I can sell to clients”

        The OP only wrote that she tried Slack twice, then went to her desk, no mention of having sent EMails. So that suggests the OP is wanting instant response from a busy person who may have been given different priorities by her own manager.

      2. biobotb*

        If the coworker had spent weeks preventing the LW from meeting organization-wide deadlines, it would be very strange to have left that context out of the letter.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      This. Also, OP is at the same level, so it would have made sense to say something along the lines of “I need this information so I can respond to our client by time. Do you think you can have that information for me by then?” If the issue really is time-sensitive, then it’s on the OP to put that in their first communication.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      She doesn’t have to be a “key person” to be focusing on other things or have different priorities. Otherwise, yes, I completely agree with this. I understand you had to get back to the client, but even that is rarely a “right this minute no waiting” situation. Just because you need an answer right away does not mean that someone else is not focusing elsewhere at that moment.

  13. melissa*

    #2-
    I like Alison’s reframe. You can then respond to the real message (which is likely “I’m worried about them” or “Their behavior is out of control.”). So your response would be something like “Oh I am so sorry to hear that” or “Wow I can’t believe they did that.” You just ignore the whole religious aspect to their words, and respond to what it seems like they’re really trying to convey.

    1. Jules the First*

      This is exactly the situation where something like “That sounds hard”
      Or “that sounds like a tough situation”, said warmly and followed by a subject change, really shines

    2. JSPA*

      #2, I have a long list of “non-god-specific” grace & healing statements, when it’s about someone who’s indeed suffering.

      “I hope they find their path, however it winds.”

      “Some people’s life paths sure do take a lot of detours.”

      “I’ve never been good at figuring out what exactly will speak to someone who’s searching in strange places, but I hope they find it, or it finds them.”

      “The more I live, the more I find that grace sometimes comes at the strangest times.”

      “I know you’ll be strong for them.”

      “I know you’ll find the grace to reflect love and healing in their direction.”

      “I hope they find whatever they’re missing, however it reaches them.”

      If it’s about a public figure (or someone else) who’s simply not living life the way somebody else thinks they ought to, I’ll go with a complex metaphor that basically boils down to “takes all kinds.”

      “life’s a rich tapestry, and some people have to lie at right angles to the rest of us, for the fabric to hold together.”

      “[our state] is a bit like velcro, isn’t it?Some people extra soft and flexible, some just about like burdock, and that’s how we stick together.”

      If people get too pushy:

      “I hear you. My tradition teaches we’re all uplifted by love.” (I’ve found that gives very little to push back against.)

      There’s also the tarter, “I wish more people read more of anything, these days, but don’t get me started.”

  14. Alan*

    For #2, I second Alison’s suggestion of reframing. I don’t know that I would pray with someone if they asked, maybe I would or would at least listen, but if someone wants to express their anxiety otherwise in religious terms, I can let them do that, and emphasize that I hear their concern. For me that’s easier than starting a possible argument which would just upset both of us.

  15. Beetle train*

    #4 I think one of the issues is that your manager is presumably expecting to return to his ‘former’ job once the interim promotion is over. Maybe he feels that it would be easier to keep that ticking over for the next year, or maybe he feels you would then struggle to transition away from it when he returns to it full time – or maybe it’s not his decision to make, and it’s brought up complications like if you’d need a salary increase (which would then decrease next year) or that there’s someone else on his team who wants to do it, or he would prefer! As someone currently temporarily promoted to cover maternity leave, it’s not always a simple process

    1. Jellybeans*

      Yeah, it’s weird that it’s worded as “my manager won’t accept help” when the letter says the LW has pushed themselves for a promotion their boss clearly doesn’t want to give them.

      If this was a movie, they’d be rewarded for showing moxie or something. In the real world, sending an unsolicited email saying “please give me a major promotion” then going to find the person to push yourself for an unsolicited promotion again, in person, it just reads as very very pushy.

      It’s obvious the boss doesn’t consider that the LW is in a position to receive this promotion, which could be for lots of reasons, but LW doesn’t seem willing to even consider the possibility that the reason could be the boss not thinking that they’re qualified/ready for such a big promotion.

    2. WellRed*

      I really feel like OP overstepped by offering to take on (promote themselves?) into an interim director position (or whatever). It’s one thing to offer to take on an additional task or two.

      1. Hyaline*

        Yeah, I feel that the OP misstepped by jumping straight to “promote me” instead of having a conversation about tasks or even small roles of leadership they might take over temporarily that would overlap “helping in this moment” with “develop professionally toward career advancement.”

      2. MCMonkeybean*

        Yes, I agree it would probably have been a lot better to ask what specific tasks they could take off their manager’s plate rather than basically just assigning themselves an enormous title bump. They might be able to reframe it that way still, but idk if bringing it up at all again a third time would come across as way too much at this point.

    3. CB212*

      Absolutely, that would cut the manager out of his own *actual job*, leaving him only the duties of the temporary promotion – when his own career path may depend on goals that were already set for the directorship, or he may not want to have to do reentry to a position he’s been out of for a full year. (While also demoting an ambitious direct report back to their own position!)

      Also, LW’s take seems to be “my manager cannot do the director and VP jobs, he’s overwhelmed – but I could do my own job plus his directorship just fine”. Which, first of all, their confidence may be optimistic / the manager may simply disagree. And we don’t know how the plan read on paper, but even if the ‘aw, it’s all too much for you’ caretaking tone doesn’t come through, the proposal was still: “help me to help you… by ceding me your job”. A bold attempt! But it’s absolutely been rejected.

    4. Deanna Troi*

      I agree. In addition, every place I have work would have opened up the consideration of an interim position to a bunch of people, including people in different parts of the organization. So, even if her boss had said “you know what, that’s a great idea,” it is likely that they would have asked everyone at the LW’s level to apply, and the LW very may well not have been the one selected. LW thought that the boss could just give it to them – that is not normally how organizations work.

  16. Jules the First*

    LW#3, the comments are going on you hard for interrupting her, but I’m in a role where this really is the expectation – there comes a point in the process where I genuinely cannot wait for others to respond in their own time. Over the years, I have developed a tactic which I teach to my team because it works really well. We call it the coffee run: you drop by the target’s desk, carrying a coffee cup. You interrupt, politely; “hey, I just stopped by to check in with you about that question I sent which needs answering urgently. Do you want to talk now or shall I grab a coffee first and come back in 5?” For bonus brownie points, you can offer to grab one for them too (if you are in a setting where that’s inexpensive!).

    1. bamcheeks*

      I love this!

      FWIW this whole interaction seems perfectly fine to me and I don’t think anything needs fixing on either side. You got the information you wanted, she didn’t have her workflow interrupted too badly. If this happens again and she does find it a problem, she tell you how she’d prefer you communicate with her and you can figure out whether that works for you or present and alternative that works better for you and still meets her needs. I don’t think either of you did anything wrong though!

        1. Ellis Bell*

          It is, but you have to factor in that OP is having a long running issue of failing to get the info they need, unless they go and try to get it on the spot, and they have a strong sense that their interruptions are not being exactly appreciated. I think also the expectation that if she is busy now, she should come and find him later (and has been failing to do so) is a bit misjudged; he is the one who wants the favour. Jules the First’s suggestion is the perfect course correction: approach the person as though they are probably happy to do you a favour, but remember that will probably need a minute to adjust from their own workflow. The offer of a cuppa is also the perfect way to indicate that they understand it is a favour, even if they decline. By indicating you don’t need them to drop everything like it’s a fire alarm, there is also room for the colleague to say “You know what I am actually slammed for the next hour, how about x?”

          1. Awkwardness*

            you have to factor in that OP is having a long running issue of failing to get the info they need, unless they go and try to get it on the spot

            I did not get this information from the letter and would have expected it to be mentioned if it were a recurring issue with this colleague.
            OP only wrote thar it would not have happened if they asked the colleague to track them down afterwards.

            But why would the colleague have to track them down to speak in person?
            And what about a message or email instead that says which info urgently is needed and to please answer? If she does not reply, and repeatedly does not reply, OP can have a discussion with the colleague about their priorities and how to balance them.

            1. Myrin*

              Does “track down” necessarily mean “in person”? Because I understood that part as meaning “get in contact with me” but I’m not a native speaker so I could have the connotations all wrong.
              Either way, it definitely sounded the way Ellis Bell read it to me as well, that this is a recurring thing with this coworker, but of course if OP simply meant that coworker would never come physically find her, that’s a bit of a different thing.

              1. Peanut Hamper*

                I think in this case it means “I had to get up from my desk and go to hers”. It carries a connotation of OP being exasperated by their colleague’s lack of response. But it does not imply that this is a recurring issue.

                1. Myrin*

                  I’m not sure I’m following – OP is referring to the coworking doing the tracking, not herself. I’m referring to this part in the letter: “if I asked her to find me when she finished, it would never happen” which implies a recurring issue to me (and evidently to Ellis Bell, too, but not to Awkwardness).
                  I guess OP could be incredibly literal and mean “she would never come find me personally (but in fact email me the answer or call)” but that seems pretty unlikely to me.

                  (And I was just now realising that I got “tracked down” from the comment I responded to, while OP said “find me”, so my question about the meaning of “tracked down” was super unnecessary.)

              2. Observer*

                Does “track down” necessarily mean “in person”?

                I don’t think that that’s the key issue. But “track down” *does* indicate that the LW might not be where they can be immediately reached by the typical means – probably Slack, so that the CW would have to try different “places”. Even without having to get up and go somewhere that’s a bit . . . much.

            2. Ellis Bell*

              I completely agree, OP should not be expecting the colleague to track them down; but they aren’t getting the information they need another way either. I would definitely use your suggestions to mark things as urgent and time sensitive and then have a discussion if they aren’t being responded to when OP needs them.

          2. Florence Reece*

            I really didn’t get a “long running issue of failing to get the info they need” from this colleague. In fact, OP emphasizes twice that they hardly ever work with this person, so if this were common behavior I would expect that to be mentioned. I would expect that to be the bulk of the question, frankly — ‘every time I work with Colleague she is unresponsive and I have to track her down, how do I approach this?’

            Instead, the question is, ‘wasn’t this rude of her?’

            I agree with the cuppa approach. My first thought was similar, that if someone says they need to finish some work and visibly turns to focus on that and not focus on you, just…come back in a few minutes. Grab some water, go to the restroom, whatever, then come back so you’re not in the position of awkwardly hovering over someone who’s trying to focus.

            OP describes that hovering situation as pretty uncomfortable for them, and they clearly felt that the colleague’s response was an urgent priority. I think it’s easy to jump to a catastrophizing “I Must Do Something or Else” mindset when the other party doesn’t see your urgent priority as equally urgent, especially if you’re in senior management and accustomed to your requests being the most important. I don’t think that feeling necessarily reflects the colleague’s behavior.

            Either way, I think OP needs to reflect on how urgent these requests actually are, how often they’re not getting responses in a timely manner if that is an issue, and how much investment they can realistically expect from this colleague who they describe as an asset they sell to their clients. It seems like her work benefits theirs; does that go both ways? Is this a mutual dynamic where she needs their expertise sometimes too? If she’s more of an expert who provides ‘added value’ to a lot of different folks, it might be important to factor that in when accounting for how much time she needs to respond and, by extension, how much time they need to give her to respond. If the problem really is on her end, then have a bigger-picture discussion about how to bridge that gap.

            But if it’s just that the information wasn’t provided on OP’s schedule, and they feel snubbed because they think she’d respond more quickly or warmly to someone she’s worked with longer — that’s something valuable to reflect on, too.

            1. Awkwardness*

              It seems like her work benefits theirs; does that go both ways? Is this a mutual dynamic where she needs their expertise sometimes too?

              And, even more to reconsider, if it is a one-way street where OP is dependent on the colleague and not the other way around, it might be helpful to invest a bit more energy into the personal relationship.
              Is there a way there colleague prefers to be approached, how can urgent matters be flagged? Do you only stop by if you need something immediately and urgently?

        2. ecnaseener*

          The interaction was normal though, since LW didn’t do anything to show they were upset. They came to an advice columnist for a gut check, that’s a good outcome!

          1. bamcheeks*

            Exactly! I think LW’s question is “is this a clear sign of disrespect” and the answer is, “no”. Whether LW was annoying the colleague by tracking her down or whether having to wait interrupted LW’s workflow are separate questions that we don’t have information about.

          2. Observer*

            The interaction was normal though, since LW didn’t do anything to show they were upset. They came to an advice columnist for a gut check, that’s a good outcome!

            Agreed. And I hope they take the feedback on board. I know it’s probably hard to read, but I do think it will serve them well in the future.

    2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      If her job is to provide a prompt response, then the OP was OK to visit her. However, it sounded like supporting the OP was only one of the coworker’s duties and maybe not the most important.

      imo – as this sounds like a recurring issue – the OP should seek clarity with her own manager about how prompt a response the coworker is supposed to give.
      She may find that her requests are only intended to be a low priority for the coworker, or if not, then her manager needs to speak with coworker manager to clarify priorities/duties/timing.

      1. Expectations*

        The idea that it’s the other person’s job to support the OP is either a fallacy or something important that was omitted from the original letter that would very much change the proper approach.

        OP, unless this person’s job is to support your work, your expectations are completely unreasonable. This person did not ignore you. They told you they needed a few minutes. They only took 3-4 minutes. Most reasonable people would do exactly the same. 3-4 minutes is too short to ask the person to come back later. I’ve had people take a lot longer. If you can’t wait, leave and send them a message when you get back to your desk that you couldn’t wait and will come back later.

        1. New Jack Karyn*

          It says they’re working on a project together. It sounds to me like the coworker provides (or has a staff/department who provide) information or services that enhance whatever project OP does for clients. Let’s say it’s putting bowties on llamas after grooming.

          Coworker is in charge of bowties, and handles them for lots of projects, for several people at OP’s level. Their job is to support all of these projects and people, not just OP.

          I agree with everything else that you wrote–that 3-4 minutes is not a big deal, and that if standing around made OP awkward, she should have gone for a cuppa and come back.

        2. Moira's Rose's Garden*

          THIS! I have a standing meeting with a grandboss. They’ll frequently be wrapping up some other task when I show up at the door, and ask me to “wait a minute” – which I don’t interpret as 60sec – so I’ll wait in the hall. If I feel like it’s been longer than I want to stand there, I’ll go back to my office and shoot a slack/teams to the effect of “lmk when you’re ready” and move on with my day, until they are ready.

          And that’s for a standing meeting. When you’re showing up without something on the calendar, the expectation should be that that person is, yanno, working at their desk! and might need some time to shift gears.

          As adults, we frequently all of us find ourselves waiting for longer than 4 minutes to be attended to. I’m sure in an open office plan, standing at a desk is a frequent and unremarkable sight. Whatever prompted OP to write in, it’s not because this interaction is remotely rude or weird or even unexpected in a busy work environment.

      2. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        Yes, if this is a recurring issue, LW should absolutely talk to their own manager. They can probably provide info on where LW’s priorities fit in with the colleague’s.

    3. Peanut Hamper*

      An even better tactic is to just tell people when you need the information by. I always include that data in my time-sensitive communications.

      Maybe this has nothing to do with the coworker, but is due to the OP’s lack of time organization, or getting a last-minute request from the client. As someone said further downthread, people aren’t mindreaders. If you need information by a certain time, then make your coworkers aware of that from the get-go.

      1. Happy meal with extra happy*

        That’s assuming people pay attention to that deadline. Obviously, we don’t know if coworker here would or not, but I’ve had to do numerous follow ups with people despite my clearly stated deadline.

        1. Peanut Hamper*

          It goes right in the subject line. Kind of hard for them to miss it that way.

          That’s what the subject line is supposed to be for: a summary of important information.

          1. Jules the First*

            You would….not last very long in my office. I can put anything I like in the subject line of an email and it won’t make a blind bit of difference to when I get it back. The people I work with are busy, creative people. Some of them don’t even read their emails routinely! But perhaps your response explains why I so frequently have to explain to my team that chasing is not chasing if all you do is follow up via the same method you used previously (which your target ignored).

        2. Moira's Rose's Garden*

          True, but if you don’t TELL me there’s a deadline, I haven’t shirked responsibility if I don’t meet your deadline or respond in what constitutes for you, a timely fashion.

          Best bet in work communications is let people know the urgency and give the date/time you need action by. That way you’ve done your due diligence to make the communication as clear & detailed as possible.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      The thing about overthinking–this goes right along with Alison’s usual advice to “use your words”. People overthink when they are afraid to ask. So the bigger question is usually “why are you afraid to ask?”

      I love that Alison asked OP#1 if this is part of a pattern. I’d bet money it is.

    3. Peanut Hamper*

      It also struck me that the customers in #2 would probably tell the other four letter writers that they need Jesus, lol!

  18. Brain the Brian*

    LW4: Is part of your frustration that you are waiting too long for approvals or feedback from your boss on items that only senior-level people are authorized to do? If so, you need to name that issue so your boss is aware. Otherwise, it might come across as you just looking for a temporary pay bump.

  19. I Have Some Thoughts.*

    LW 2. In teaching this is sometimes called a ‘recovery job’. Something you can do that covers the bills but gives you the head space to recover and reset. Could you use this time to work with a careers coach? Do further training? Network and explore options. Teachers traditionally have a habit of assuming that you’re choosing a career path for life, so making the jump out can be scary in case you’re jumping into something you don’t like. If that sounds familiar to you it might be worth remembering that lots of people change field completely several times in their career, you don’t always get it right the first, second or even third time!

  20. The Linen Porter*

    #1: It seems you aren’t the type of person that does direct confrontations? I’m 55, and beyond the ”give 2 fornications”, so this may not work for you…

    I’d gone to this ex-manager and laid it all out. ”You know, Littlefinger, I really liked you as my lord at Kings Landing. I thought you liked me as well, but you know the reason why I left Kings Landing and left for the Eyrie? Lord Varus showed me the list of the next beheadings, and I rather not stay and be shot on the bog like a Lannister either. Now I don’t know if that list was done by Geoffrey or you, but having you here, I rather not go any nearer to the moon door that I need to. I hope you understand my reasoning… some more tea?

    Dr. House: ”Everyone lies.”
    Motörhead: ”I don’t believe a word.”

    2. Rain*

      Is this hyperbolic for the sake of comedy, or would you legitimately say this to a boss/former boss?

      1. bamcheeks*

        Missing the GoT (I think!) references, which part of this wouldn’t you say? I don’t think this is rude or confrontational! I think the only thing I’d change is that I’d make it clear that my purpose was to hear their response and find out what I didn’t know. But I don’t think, “I liked working with you and I thought you rated me, but seeing my name on a lay-off list shook my confidence” is a bad place to start a conversation.

        1. tabloidtained*

          All of it, I think. It’s poor judgement, for all the reasons covered by other commenters about layoffs not being personal.

        2. Snoodence Pruter*

          I don’t disagree with the sense of it, but it’s not just the references, it’s the wording. I think it would be fine to say something like, ‘I always enjoyed working with you and felt that we had a good relationship, but seeing my name on a layoff list made me worry that there were issues that I’d missed’. Any more vehement than that and it has a vibe of ‘I thought you LIKED me but you clearly DON’T so now I don’t want to work with you again BYE’. Like, there’s zero room for sass here. It needs to be straightforward, calm, and open to being told that the layoff list had nothing to do with performance and actually the manager fought to keep LW *because* they were great at their job.

    4. EvilQueenRegina*

      Knowing Littlefinger, he’d probably have been the one waving the layoff list around in front of OP to persuade them to leave!

    5. Broadway Duchess*

      I just think this line of thinking is so needlessly overwrought and won’t do anything to free up OP’s mind. As others have pointed out, layoffs are not necessarily due to performance, but OP is so insistent on this reasoning that they left without another job lined up. If I were the manager and someone said anything like the above, I’d stop asking them to apply to my ope. positions.

  21. Falling Diphthong*

    #5, I want to pull out a running theme from experience in the comments: Often it takes a while to recover from that intense job that was draining your mental and physical health. It’s okay to take something that, by design or happenstance, is about getting your bearings again. The first step away doesn’t have to be your new career for life.

    It reminds me a bit of how cancer patients can discover, once they’re in remission, that their body is pulling out all the emotional stress and doing that now. During chemo it was just trudging ahead one step at a time, and now that there’s a little more space and energy suddenly the stuff that was crushed down is blossoming into that space.

    1. OP5*

      This a great point and something I needed to hear in our “productivity/progress is everything” capitalism nightmare. Thanks!

    2. bamcheeks*

      Yes, it’s also possible for your body and mind to be conditioned to expect drama and stress hormones, and to mistake a while to adjust to missing them. Give yourself a few months and you’ll probably be able to make a more realistic assessment of whether you’re missing the purpose and impact that the passion career gave you, or whether you’re just in the come down from those years of swinging wildly between success and failure in a way that was deeply unhealthy for you.

  22. Irish Teacher.*

    LW1, I agree with those who have said there are all kinds of reasons for layoffs. While it’s not the same (a redeployment rather than a layoff and in the Irish public sector where there are strict rules and a reason somebody was taken off the redeployment list rather than included, but might indicate how random these things can be), a couple of years ago at work, our school was over quota and one teacher was removed from the redeployment list essentially because of the war in Ukraine. Refugees started arriving in Ireland, the government gave schools an extra teacher to help with language support and this teacher happened to have a qualification in English as an Additional Language.

    I know it’s not the same but my point is that when layoffs or redeployments happen is because they need to reduce the staff numbers by a certain amount. If they needed four less members of staff and there weren’t four people who performed at a low level, then they’d have to lay off somebody who was competent or even good at their job. It might be the fourth least able, which still doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be considered for another job or that the boss wouldn’t have them back in a heartbeat if business improved (the year before, we were unable to keep on somebody whose contract was coming to an end, but who the school would have liked to renew).

    And it doesn’t even necessarily mean you were one of the least able. There are all kinds of things that could have been considered, from what roles were needed to what projects people were involved in to just additional qualifications that happened to be needed.

    And even if your boss thought you were expendable in that role (which again doesn’t mean would never hire you back; it just means he didn’t want to lose anybody but had to choose somebody and considered the others even better than you), that certainly doesn’t mean he wouldn’t consider you in a different role in a different company. It may have been that your position was least necessary (as others have said) or that he felt you weren’t a great fit for that role and would do better at something else or any one of a number of things.

    LW2, maybe I’m misreading but those comments sound kinda rude even apart from the religion. It’s one thing to say somebody needs Jesus’s help. Still inappropriate in your context, but I could take it as “he really needs support at the moment,” but I’m finding it hard to parse “he needs to read the Bible” as anything other than a criticism of him for not reading it. I think I’d feel awkward even if it was something more generally agreed upon, like “he needs to read the constitution” or “he needs to read about the theory of gravity.” Not to ignore the issue of religion as religious beliefs are individual and therefore, it’s far more problematic to say somebody needs to share theirs.

    I know that’s probably not helpful, but just to say I think you have reasonable grounds for being uncomfortable with it.

    1. Seashell*

      Regarding LW2, I think it sounds like the member of the public is complaining about their relatives’ bad behavior and thinks that those relatives becoming Christian would fix said behavior. There are members of the public who share TMI on various topics, so not surprising that religion might be one of them, especially in a very religious area.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Yeah, I just think it’s pretty awkward if people are coming and badmouthing their relatives/other people and would be even without the use of religion. I certainly had people overshare to me when I worked retail, but I don’t think I ever had people start telling me how their family members need to change.

    2. bamcheeks*

      I am delighted to think of someone grumbling, “he needs to read the theory of gravity” and wondering what occasioned it.

  23. Pocket Mouse*

    LW #4 – From your letter, it doesn’t seem like there’s an Interim Director position available. The role isn’t there to fill because your manager is filling it. You can (and maybe should!) ask for him to delegate specific things that would make things easier for both of you and would support your career, but that’s all that is available to you. It may be him making that decision, but very likely it’s a decision made well above both of your levels.

  24. Not That Kind of Doctor*

    My first thought on #4 is that the temporary VP is worried he’ll be out of a job if someone else assumes the director role during the VP search. We recently had a director search in which all of the candidates interviewed were former VPs looking for a reentry point after being laid off as redundant.

  25. Friday Hopeful*

    Seems like to co-worker in #3 knows how to set boundaries pretty well. She was busy, you messaged twice, and then you went over to her desk and stood there. If she had been the one writing in and complaining that a co-worker expects her to drop everything and answer right away I think that is the advice she would have gotten!

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      This. I don’t know about Slack, but I know I can look in Teams and see whether or not somebody has seen my message. If they have, but haven’t responded, I just figure they haven’t had the time to deal with it, or are still trying to figure out their response.

    2. Pretty as a Princess*

      Yes! I don’t understand expecting a senior management person to just be sitting around reacting and immediately responding to every single slack message or whatnot right the second it comes in. This person presumably has responsibilities they are working on. IMO it’s oblivious at best, and rude and disrespectful at worst to expect them to just immediately stop anything the second there is another signal.

      I had someone do this to me last week. Sent multiple teams messages while I happened to be on a series of urgent calls (difficult client situation, getting download from our team, planning response, then following up with my boss to advise & secure top cover). I was fully present for the situation I had to manage. The first message was “do you have a minute?” and then it was “did you read my email? (that was sent 3 minutes ago)” and then it was someone winding up in my door asking if I had read my email, while I was in the middle of writing a very precise, measured message to the client about said difficult situation. You bet I told that person they needed to wait until I was done sending email to the customer, and I did not rush myself. They probably had to wait more than 5 min. Span of time between first Teams message and walking in my door? maybe 25 minutes. (And my Teams “status” dot was showing as “unavailable” when I was on these calls!)

      Did that person know I was *managing strategy and comms around conflict situation”? No. I didn’t expect them to know what I was doing at that time. But it was oblivious as all hell that they assumed that I wasn’t doing anything else but sitting at my desk staring at the monitor waiting to pounce on Teams messages.

  26. Hyaline*

    The ship may have sailed for this already on LW4, but it was a Choice to jump straight to “promote me” instead of perhaps talking about opportunities to gain experience in the things they’re wanting to develop in their career. For example, maybe there is space to hand off some lower-level, day to day management or heading a project or taking point on some accounts or whatever makes sense in the job and what the LW wants to get experience in–offering to pick some of that up, temporarily, as a learning experience and to build your resume, comes off a lot differently than “give me your job.” I’m not sure if there is still space for that here, or if by aiming for a major promotion the door is kind of shut and, as stated, it’s time to drop it.

  27. I should really pick a name*

    #1
    I think at this point, it would actually be less awkward to just talk to your previous manager about seeing your name on the layoff list.

    Right now, all they know is that he has asked you to apply to roles, reassured you that you would be considered seriously, and you have chosen not to apply anyway. They’re probably pretty confused.

  28. yikes*

    if you hear someone say something like “they need to read the bible” – a good response is.
    “maybe they could start with Ephesians 4:29”
    “or James 1:26”
    “or Proverbs 11:13”
    “or Proverbs 16:28”
    “or Proverbs 18:6-7”
    etc etc

      1. Gullible Vengeance Umpires*

        But if you do this, you are required to break into All for the Best from Godspell. I don’t make the rules.

    2. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

      Only if you actually are up for a theological debate, because they might very well be. Where I grew up the most conservative would *love* an entry point to that and, as Biblically literate people who enjoyed a good debate, would have questions and arguments all lined up for you.

      It’s like asking a Christian why they eat shrimp or wear clothes with mixed fibers. Some will stammer and fumble. Others will have a well-researched argument (since it’s a topic of theological debate that has been gone over for millennia) that they would be delighted to explain at length to a captive audience. You’re rolling the dice on which you get.

    3. The Linen Porter*

      Ezekiel 23:20 always worked for me not having to learn any more verses in bible school…

  29. Czhorat*

    For LW 2 (religious comments) I’m a nonbeliever, and how I react to those depends highly on what the comment is.

    If “he needs Jesus” is said in the same context as “he needs therapy/meds/to get his stuff together” then I take it the same way I’d take if they actually said that. Religion is part of many people’s culture and a way of expressing very valid thoughts and emotions. I’d accept it with grace even if it doesn’t match MY framing for those things.

    If “he needs to read his bible” is said in the context of “he’s gay and he shouldn’t be” then that is an entirely different discussion and NOT OK. That’s where I’d push back as far as the position allows me to; I’m in a role with professional rather than public contacts which allows both more and less freedom to say something (more because “customer service” isn’t quite the job, less because I’m very likely to encounter these people again).

    1. Zelda*

      From another point of view, “very likely to encounter these people again” may mean “it’s worth investing in this relationship and laying groundwork to make sure I don’t have to put up with a recurring stream of crappy opinions.” Things I might let go from someone I will never see again might not be tolerable long-term.

    2. 15 Pieces of Flair*

      LW4- My boss has taken on 2(!) interim VP level roles in the past year with no defined plan to permanently fill either He also still holds his original title as head of the functional group that I’ve been leading for the past year. In other words, I’m in a similar situation.

      One angle you haven’t considered is that your boss may be protecting his job security. Interim roles often end with someone else being selected to fill the role full time, so he may want to ensure that doesn’t inadvertently highlight a lower cost (and potentially more effective) resource who could fill his existing role.

      Even if he’s secure in his role, he may not want to appoint an interim director for pay or morale reasons. Some organizations (rightly) have provisions that someone who’s covering for a higher level role needs to be paid that higher level salary, and organizations that ask someone to pull double (or triple) duty often do it for cost reasons. Even if you were doing that extra work for free, lots of managers would respond negatively to moving back down the org chart when that year is up.

  30. Not Jen from The IT Crowd*

    LW#3 – if you tried to get hold of me multiple times and I hadn’t responded – because I’m busy –
    and you then turned up at my desk, out of principle I’d make you wait longer. I hope you’re not one of those people who messages, then emails, then phones/visits the desk of someone every time you’ve not had an immediate response?! This may be ok in some offices but you need to be careful that you don’t keep doing it and get a reputation for it, otherwise you’ll find people will go out of their way to avoid you. Also, you need to get comfortable very quickly with people asserting boundaries. (Same could go for the LW who said about asking their manager twice about helping filling in for them!)

    1. Czhorat*

      This is a good point, and has to balance two things: OP’s need for input and respect for the colleague’s schedule. Sometimes you DO need something quickly and it makes sense to push a bit, but a three minute wait is hardly egregious.

      There’ve been times I’ve wandered to someone’s desk and times people have done it to me. There are times you CAN send a slack/teams/whatever message and wait for a reply, times when you need it now. There also, honestly, have been times that I’ve been too distracted and probably needed the prodding to give a timely reply.

  31. Still*

    #1 is some impressive self-sabotage.

    LW had an amazing boss and was feeling happy and confident about their work. And then they quit with nothing lined up and now keep refusing to even interview with the boss, despite the fact that they’d love to work with him again, and that the boss clearly wants them on his team.

    And all that because they might at one point have been considered for a layoff? Which a) is very different from firing and not necessarily performance-based, and b) never actually happened?

    LW, I’d just take the interview the next time an opportunity presents itself and see how it goes. You’re really doing both of you a disservice by giving more weight to a list that you saw without any context over two years ago, than to your ex-bosses words and actions, both then and now.

  32. Pretty as a Princess*

    LW4, you may not have thought of it this way, but in addition to the other feedback you god – your manager also likely does not have the authority to just interim promote anyone. That’s not a single manger decision to just appoint you and they likely don’t have the authority to flow the Interim status downward to another level. Here when someone is in an interim or acting capacity, that’s everything – performance management, compensation reviews, etc etc and it may very well be that it’s not appropriate to create an interim version of your boss’s role due to various situations you don’t see.

    If you really want to focus on finding ways to help out with the additional burden on your manager and grow your skills/demonstrate that you can take on more responsibilities, you could ask a different question along the lines of “Is there anything that I can take off your plate?” Or “I’m already working three llama farm schedules so if you need to unload the 4th, I’m happy to take it on.” You’ve already said that this boss has given you additional projects, has given you stretch opportunities in the past, approach this that way. What *specific* things would you want to ask to take on/volunteer for, that are not flat-out “promote me to interim director.”?

  33. Where did the magician park*

    #1 I wouldn’t do it. you will have Dallas every day. it will make your life miserable.

    2. The esteemed governor*

      Hmmm, are we talking “Who Shot JR?” Dallas, or “It was just a dream” Dallas? Big difference!

      1. Sparkles McFadden*

        This is exactly where my brain went before I expanded the comments and saw it was an autocorrect thing.

    3. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      This is why one uses one’s words. Then you don’t have to hint, guess, doubt, try to be psychic. No one is actually a psychic, so we all need to train ourselves to stop guessing what people “really think”.

  34. Jennifer Strange*

    #1 – I’m kind of side-eyeing the manager who showed you the list to begin with! I’m not completely clear on why they did that (regardless of whether they knew you were on it) as it doesn’t sound like something you should have been privy to either way. That said, I get that it can be a sting, but I really think you shot yourself in the foot by jumping to the worst possible conclusion (and I say that as someone who has a tendency to do the same). Please take your former manager at face value and interview with him!

    #2 – I’m not religious, though I’m also not an atheist and grew up in a Catholic household, so my view may be skewed because of it, but I do find reframing “people need Jesus” to be easier than reframing “people need to read the Bible”. The former to me has become slang similar to saying someone needs a “come to Jesus moment” or “Oh my God!”, so it’s easier to reframe it as someone just saying, “This person needs some sort of help”. But yeah, “people need to read the Bible” seems a bit more specific. Either way, I think grey rocking is the way to go. Sorry you’re in this situation!

  35. The esteemed governor*

    It doesn’t sound like anyone in #3 really did anything wrong. I’d just move on and forget it

  36. CommanderBanana*

    Just a blanket reminder that layoffs often have very very little to do with actual job performance. You can be the highest-performing person on a team and still get laid off for a hundred reasons that have nothing to do with you, personally. You can be the lowest performing person on a team and keep your job for reasons that have nothing to do with you, personally.

    1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

      One of our best employees got laid off for a reason like this. She was a specialist in a particular kind of tech, and we were closing that line because we weren’t competitive in the market (through no fault of her own). Since her expertise was niche, there was no other role at the company for her. So she got ample severance and glowing recommendations and left amicably (I still talk to her from time to time and she’s happily working for a company that can make better use of her specialist knowledge). We miss her, but it was nothing about her *or* us, just one of those things.

  37. RagingADHD*

    LW#5, perhaps you could find the best of both worlds by keeping your livelihood stable and low-stress, and putting your passion / getting your dopamine from pursuits in your personal life?

    As Flaubert said, “Be regular in orderly in your life like a bourgeois, so that you may be violent and original in your (artistic) work.”

  38. Lionheart26*

    COMPLETELY agree with Alison’s advice to OP5. I’m also a work-adrenaline junky. When I’m not over worked and stressed, I’m bored and feel lazy. I yo-yo’d between the two kinds of roles a couple of times, but then decided to completely switch careers and find something that has all of the dopamine and none of the stress. Take this as an opportunity to learn what you like and don’t like in a job, so you can craft your sweet spot next time.

  39. Czech Mate*

    LW 5 – Longtime admin here. That’s more or less what admin is, but here are some things I’ve found to be helpful.

    1) Reminding yourself that the day-to-day may not be as exciting, but it’s all in service to a greater cause. The teachers can’t teach or get paid if you’re not there to do the accounting, for example. I often think of my work as more big-picture–rather than personally teaching a handful of students, I’m behind the scenes making sure that ALL of the students are getting a quality education and ALL of the faculty are equipped to do their jobs.

    2) Potentially pivoting to an admin role where you’re working with people or doing more work related to education (assuming that’s the field you’re in) such as teacher training or curriculum development. And, speaking of which…

    3) Even an otherwise boring admin job can become more interesting and meaningful if you try to work more closely with your faculty and staff. I work very closely with everyone at my institution and try to emphasize to them that I’m there to help them be successful in their work and to serve the students and actively encourage them to talk to me about issues that they see in their work or with students as they relate to my role. Admins can almost become like therapists to their faculty.

  40. 34avemovieguy*

    I could barely pay attention to the other letters after the 1st one. I appreciate how negative thoughts, anxiety, and self-doubt can cloud your judgment, because I have first hand experience with it. However, with so many friends struggling to get interviews even with amazing qualifications and it hurts my heart to see someone self-sabotage this way. I wish the best of luck to OP1 and I hope they can overcome this situation and find work with what seems like a very caring mentor and manager.

  41. Stoli*

    You cannot force your way into a director/management position. The no response to an email was a hard no.

  42. JSPA*

    #1, even if someone IS messing with you…

    given the choice between “someone I admire, and who always seemed to admire me, is playing an incredibly long game to mess with me” and “someone random added my name to a fake layoff list, and pretended not to notice that one of the four names on the list was mine, as a stupid joke,” I’d pick door #2.

    I’d pick door number two even if I hadn’t seen it be done in real life… but I have seen it, more than once, and even had it done to me.

    Like you probably did, I kept a poker face. So the “joker” never got their laugh, and the chance to say “just joking.” Unlike you, they felt bad enough about it to tell someone, who came and apologized to me, “in case I’d noticed.”

    It’s a crappy, heartless sort of “joke,” but so’s perching a glass of water on a door. I’m hoping your new job is free of that sort of joke… and that both you and your manager will thrive there.

  43. House On The Rock*

    LW 1, listen to the advice to let go of your hurt and consider working for your old manager again.

    In addition to both Alison’s original guidance, and the comments from others, consider that you are both at a different company now! Even if your previous manager had chosen you/your position as being in the layoff pool, that was your previous workplace. The manager was beholden to the situation there, which is not your current situation.

    Given how deeply this is bothering you, it might be worth coming clean to your manager, although if you do, you have to be prepared to hear something that might cause further angst. Your manager might share that while he valued you, there were others in the company who didn’t, or that he did fight for you and was disappointed when you chose to leave, or that the list wasn’t really what you thought it was! Who knows? That is all to say that if this has been troubling you to the point of not wanting to work for him, maybe you are not prepared to hear the whole story, especially if it means second guessing previous choices. If, however, you sincerely want to clear the air and move forward, talking to him makes sense.

  44. CorgiDoc*

    I’m a veterinarian and one time I was in an exam room with an elderly lady, about to euthanize her beloved dog. She was very distraught and she asked me to pray for the dog’s soul. I am not religious and was super uncomfortable with that. I think I said something like maybe she should do it as the one who knew the dog best. She was fine with it but I’ve been anxious/worried about another situation like that ever since. It’s already an emotionally charged situation and not everyone would take it so well.

    1. CorgiDoc*

      To clarify, she was asking me to say a prayer out loud then and there, not asking me to keep the dog in my private prayers or something like that. I’ve never said a prayer in my life.

      1. MCMonkeybean*

        Honestly I think your response sounds perfect.

        If someone were to push further in the future which it sounds like is your concern, maybe you could follow it up with something like “I really wouldn’t know what to say, but Spot was such a wonderful dog” (assuming it was a dog you had met and treated in the past)

    2. Michelle Smith*

      “I’m not religious or spiritual, but I’m happy to give you some time to say a prayer if you’d like.”

      “I’m not religious or spiritual, but I’m happy to say a few words about what a sweet dog he is if that would bring you some comfort.”

      “I’m not religious or spiritual, but I’m happy to sit with you and join you while you pray.”

      “I’m not religious or spiritual, but Angie our vet tech is. Let me ask her to come join us. I know she’d do a better job with a prayer than I can.” (assuming here that you’ve mentioned this issue to her in advance and that she’s said she’s willing to provide this act of service to religious clients)

    3. DramaQ*

      I would go with “I am not a religious person but I am happy to sit with you as you pray if that is what you would like”. I am not comfortable praying either but I know it means a lot to some people so I will bow my head in respect as they pray. They don’t need to know I am not actually praying. It’s more about me being there with them when they need someone.

    4. Not A Manager*

      I somewhat disagree with the other comments. I think in a circumstance like this, what she wants is to have her grief and love seen and acknowledged. And I do think it’s worth coming up with a script for similar moments. One way to praynotpray is to use the passive voice. “My own spiritual beliefs are still evolving. Here are my hopes for you and Sparky. May his memory live on inside you. May he continue to bring you comfort in the future, as he did during his lifetime. May whatever is eternal in Sparky find a loving home.” Or whatever. If that last line is too much for you, leave it off.

      Basically, just say whatever you *do* feel about this lady and her love for her dog, and hold her hand while you say it. Don’t get too technical about “praying” when you can help to alleviate someone’s pain.

    5. K8T*

      I actually think your response was great to have them lead and that way you can just bow your head politely. They’re looking for support during a horrible time and I don’t think prefacing anything with “I’m not religious/etc” would be helpful to them in that moment.

      1. Observer*

        I agree with this.

        @CorgiDoc I think this was perfect because it acknowledges her feelings and relationship in an affirming way. And I think that that’s what she really needed here.

      2. CorgiDoc*

        Exactly, that was my concern. I don’t really think my lack of religiosity is relevant to the situation or that bringing it up would be likely to be helpful to anyone.

    7. iglwif*

      I would be super uncomfortable in that situation too (the only prayers for the dying and dead that I know are Jewish ones, and I don’t have them memorized in my head), and I think your way of handling it was good.

  45. Dido*

    LW3, you made yourself wait. You obviously knew your coworker was busy since she didn’t respond to your Slack messages and decided to bother her anyway. I’m in what sounds like a similar position as your coworker. I have tons of work of my own to do, but my coworkers sometimes use me as a subject matter expert on their projects to impress clients. These coworkers like to assume that their work is everyone else’s priority (absolutely not the case) and expect me to drop everything to assist them whenever they want. My managers are clear that my own work is my priority and I’m only to help these coworkers when I have the bandwidth. If I was your coworker, though, I would’ve just been honest that I’d get to you when I get to you.

  46. Michelle Smith*

    OP5: Would you be willing to share what role/field is the boring email factory one? It sounds like exactly what I need to be doing lol.

  47. Suzannah*

    OP1, I know not hurts to see your name on a list of people they planned to lay off (but were you going to be laid off? Did you really quit and miss the severance and unemployment pay?). But.. as Alison said, there are So. Many. Reasons you would be on that list. Some of them are not remotely personal – like, that division isn’t bringing in the $$ they want. Or, they are mixing it up to avoid getting sued (as my 50-plus friend found when her workplace laid off the majority of over workers, but threw in enough younger ones that they felt safe from a n age discrimination suit).
    It’s business – it’s not personal. Your former manager obviously likes you and wants to work with you again. Don’t shoot yourself in the foot by making the layoff plans personal when they are not. If they were really unhappy with you at Previous Job, they would have fired you, right?

  48. K8T*

    OP 1’s behavior sounds incredibly exhausting. No reason to keep being weird about the situation where nothing bad actually happened. Either let your previous boss know you will not ever consider transferring to their team or tell them you saw your name on that list and how it affected you/your concerns.
    I wouldn’t even call this self-sabotaging, just odd.

  49. Immortal for a limited time*

    #1 – I’ve been there and I totally agree with Alison. You’re looking at the “layoff list” as a personal judgment but it probably wasn’t. Years ago I worked for a government contractor, and the contract for our long-term project was up for renewal. The gov’t agency needed to reduce their budget by X dollars and to do that they specified they wanted to eliminate X staff positions on a couple of teams (testing, training, etc.). I was in one of those positions, so my name was automatically “on the list.” Anything else would have been UNfair; decision-makers had to look at staff in those positions as objectively as possible to determine whose skills and work history were best suited to carry on with the new contract. I felt relief that I wasn’t the one laid off, but I didn’t hold any grudge against my director for including my name on the list; he had to. Like you, I was involved, but not affected.

    #4 – I’d say there’s a very high likelihood that your director/interim VP has a negotiated agreement in which he is being paid for both roles. My spouse was in that position once; corporations don’t typically force senior leaders into two roles without making it worth their while. Your offering to help was nice, but I’m not at all surprised that he wasn’t in a position to take you up on it but couldn’t really say why.

  50. Excel Gardener*

    LW5 – I’ve worked boring and unfulfilling “email and Excel” jobs since graduating college, and so I completely get it. Is it possible to find a job in your field that middle-ground between fulfilling but exhausting and manageable but soul crushingly boring? Even if you can’t jump into it right away, maybe you could have a more interesting role you’re working toward moving into in a year or two.

    That’s what I’m trying to do. I’ve identified a more interesting kind of role in my field that I’m trying to work toward. I’m doing a very part-time masters program (it’s remote and one class per semester) to hopefully level up my skills enough to get a more interesting role, and the classes themselves give me some of that intellectual satisfaction I felt was missing.

    My other piece of advice may be a bit more controversial, but personally I’ve found that I’ve been able to meet or exceed expectations in these roles without working a full 40 hours a week. Yes, I’m available for 40 hours, but I’m not necessarily working. Perhaps you could fill some of that time with more interesting things like classes, professional development, or even hobbies.

  51. mythopoeia*

    LW 2: my go-to phrase for similar situations (really, any time someone expresses a negative emotion in a way I don’t have a good/personal response for) is “That sounds hard” or “That sounds hard for you.” It gets at the feelings behind what they’re saying, and people tend to feel like they’ve been heard when you say it.

  52. Ginger Cat Lady*

    OP1, you’re almost 50, so late career. Probably making more than a younger employee. Sometimes THAT is why you end up on a layoff list. They lay you off, wait a bit, and hire someone else at half your salary to do the same work.
    It’s happened to me (X2) and my husband (X3) in the last 12 years and we are in our late 50s. Every time we were laid off, the company listed that job again with a much lower salary within 3 months.
    Welcome to age discrimination.

    1. iglwif*

      I’m 50 and was laid off recently (first time in my career, I’ve been very fortunate). It was upsetting! Job-hunting sucks!

      BUT

      – it wasn’t personal — I was told about the decision by my grandboss, to whom it was undoubtedly handed down by someone several levels above her whose knowledge of me as an employee consisted of my name, job title, and how much I cost to employ. Even if, as I suspect, the real plan is “lay this person off and then hire someone younger and cheaper for a lower-level role to do the same work” … it’s still not personal.
      – there was restructuring happening in our vertical and mine was neither the first layoff nor the last from my team. I know the other people who were laid off and they are very competent; I have no reason to suppose I am less competent than they are.
      – as I keep having to tell my mom, there’s nothing to be gained from being mad at my ex-employer for laying me off. They paid out my unused vacation, pay in lieu of notice, and severance (slightly more severance than I was legally entitled to, in fact, although not much more); I got to keep my health insurance coverage (dental, vision care, drug plan, paramedical services) for 3 months; they paid for me to work with an outplacement services company, which I’ve found to be mostly useless but they definitely mean well. I wasn’t treated unfairly in any way, I wasn’t wrongfully dismissed, I got my ROE and am eligible for EI when my severance pay runs out. I could focus on being mad at them, but why?

  53. Gray Lady*

    When someone says “He needs Jesus” they’re not asking you for agreement about their religious solution or to engage in a metaphysical discussion. They’re saying the person is messed up, and speaking from their own religious perspective. You don’t need to have any opinion or response on it at all, any more than if they said, “He really needs to get his life together.” It’s a throwaway comment.

  54. Nashville Ex-Pat*

    I feel like, “Bless their heart,” needs to go in this conversation somewhere.

  55. anony38493*

    Re #1. Interviewing with a manager who wanted to lay me off

    I would ask about, but not in an accusatory way just to bring you closure. Sounds like if you don’t get this off your chest, then you will never stop wondering about it. Phrase it in a way like “old job had layoffs and had a feeling I was part of the cut so my sense of job security being under your team again is’t very highly confident.

  56. Dawn*

    OP3: You interrupted her and she let you know that you interrupted her. Her job isn’t to be immediately available at your convenience. Do not get offended that someone else made it clear that you were inconveniencing them by showing up unannounced when they didn’t immediately respond to your email. Get over this.

    1. allathian*

      Depends on the job and what they needed from the other person. In some roles it would be appropriate for a junior employee to walk in on a C-suite meeting to get what they needed. Happened to my husband early in his career when he needed a signature on a multimillion euro contract, like right now, or his company would lose it. Other people had messed up and generally his VP was very organized. He saved the day and showed himself in a good light to the C-suite. Not long afterwards, he got a promotion and a significant raise.

      Granted, the vast majority of interruptions aren’t this critical, but if the LW really needs something from the coworker, a talk with their own manager might help, if nothing else to understand the priorities better. Maybe it’d help to contact the coworker earlier in the process to ensure that the delay doesn’t become a bottleneck.

      I’ve been on the other side of this. When I first started my job, some people would come by my desk to hurry their task along. My then-coworker who was a night owl and resented being spoken to before noon would reward them for that by putting their job first on their to-do list just to get them to leave her alone. I refused to do that. At the time, we got some tasks assigned by interoffice memo (in 2007!) and I’d move their task to the bottom of my “pending” box and they saw me do it. We had, and have, a lot of discretion in prioritizing our work, and I quickly got my manager on board not rewarding internal customers who bugged us. It worked because we finally went fully electronic a year or so later, and within the next few years, the people who were most insistent on either interim reports or their task getting done immediately retired.

      It also helps that we rarely miss a deadline, and never without a good reason (unplanned inevitable absences, top priority tasks) and we’re transparent and apologetic when we need to reschedule. We try to build some slack into our schedule to accommodate emergencies because our customers are happy to get their tasks done early.

  57. H.Regalis*

    OP2 – In general, whatever banal non-response you can give to make the conversation end is your best bet. If it’s a little awkward, well, that’s better than a lot awkward.

    If you get people who really, really don’t want to let it go—they’re rare but they’re out there—you could try rolling out something like, “My mama really drummed it into me not to discuss religion or money in polite company, so out of respect for her I don’t.” Is that true? Who cares! Invoke Imaginary Mom. Most folks aren’t going to be like, “Your mom sucks and you should discuss religion with me” and for the precious few who do say that, you can then be affronted because they said something rude about your mother.

    In general though, I feel for you. It’s awkward, and especially because it’s work and they’re customers, you probably don’t want to go full on debate-club about stuff. Even if this were in your personal life instead, you get to pick when you want to discuss this or not. You’re not required to engage with everyone in the exact way they want, whenever they want, about whatever topics they want.

  58. Veryanon*

    #3 – unless you were messaging your co-worker to tell her that the building was on fire and she needed to evacuate immediately, there’s no reason to show up at her cube after pinging her on IM. Please don’t do this! If someone doesn’t answer you immediately, there’s a reason why – probably because they are in the middle of something and don’t want to lose their train of thought. Again, if it’s not an emergency, DON’T DO THIS.

  59. Astrid*

    #3 Perhaps if you think of your colleague as a person, rather than “an added value asset [you] can sell to clients,” you may be more understanding if you have to wait for a period of a mere few minutes for them to complete the task they were doing before you interrupted them unannounced.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      I made basically this same comment earlier, but it got eaten by the system, I guess. I’m not comfortable referring to people as commodities. Their knowledge, their expertise, their skills–yes, these are the commodities we are selling.

  60. beepboop*

    My bones say #5 works in public libraries. I guess just think of all the energy you’ll have for stuff outside of work now.

  61. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

    OP1 – did you get laid-off though? It sounds like from the way this was worded you were on a list with people who did get laid-off, but you did not get let go when they did.

    Do you know for a fact that your manager put you on that list? I’ve been in situations where people were put on lists by someone with no knowledge and the manager is told to “pick 3 from this list”. Maybe your experience meant you were being paid more and someone else hoped they could ditch your salary and bring in cheap people and a layoff is an easier time to skirt age discrimination.

    You are sabotaging yourself based on a lot of assumptions. It sounds like it is time to sit down and tell the supervisor what you believe to be true.

  62. NotARealManager*

    LW2,

    As others have mentioned, the kinds of comments you used as examples aren’t usually seeking the listener’s affirmation of their religion or beliefs. It usually just means “my nephew is a screw up” or “my sister doesn’t have her act together, but I really hope she get it together soon!”. I’d try to sympathize with their intent, not focus on the Jesus or the Bible of the comment. Even then though, it sounds like they’re transactional customers so it doesn’t have to be a deep interaction. Just an “mmhmm” or “yep, sounds familiar” is probably enough.

  63. Kella*

    OP1: To put it very factually:

    –a layoff list was made that included your name
    –the other three people on that list were laid off
    –you were not laid off

    Because the list and the events that followed do not match, by definition, there is information you are missing.

    Information you DO have is that this manager is repeatedly asking you to apply and stating plainly that he wants you on his team.

    Are you going to listen more to information you don’t have, or information you do have?

  64. Blue Horizon*

    In a sense, because OP1 saw the list but was not one of the ones eventually laid off, they got the shock without the mitigations that would normally come along with it. In almost every layoff situation, there is usually a manager conversation that lays out how much of it was you (probably some, in the case of the other three, but generally less than you think) and how much of it is the needs of the business (typically most or all of it). A good manager – which it sounds like this one was – will expect it to be a shock to you, and will go out of their way to remind you of all of your good qualities as an employee, thank you for your work, and offer a reference as often as you should need one.

    OP1 was not ultimately laid off and so didn’t suffer that consequence, but also didn’t get to have that conversation.

  65. Anna*

    It’s probably just my own career making me read into half the posts on here, but LW5 sounds like a library worker. There are tons of library jobs that have some level of public interaction and a lot of variability in tasks. My friend is in collection management, so mostly not public facing. But she does a few shifts with the public every week, just to be able to keep an eye on what’s happening. I’ve seen academic librarian schedules that involve set appointments and instruction 25% of the time (<10 hours a week), 75% back office. I don't think it's difficult to negotiate adding a small amount of desk coverage into any back office job – it generally makes it easier to schedule lunches, breaks, and meetings.

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