drunk coworker’s aggressive behavior outside of work, a retroactive pay cut, and more

by Alison Green on April 2, 2025

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Can I report my coworker’s drunken, racist aggression outside of work?

This past weekend, after a Saturday work event, a coworker invited me out for lunch and a few drinks to celebrate a job well done. We made a call to another coworker who lived in the area to join us. She said she would be joining with one of our out-of-country coworkers, Fergus, who was in-country on a work trip and looking to socialize. None of us is a fan of Fergus as we find him annoying (long overshares about his fraught divorce, a general negative outlook), but our impression of him was that he was harmless, just unpleasant.

During the lunch, Fergus was really throwing back the drinks. He became distracted by a few men at the table next to us, and joined their conversation, which they initially seemed to welcome. My coworkers and I enjoyed catching up in his absence.

After a time, one of the men came over to our table and said, “The time has come, you need to take your friend back. You need to get him out of here.” On further inquiring, we learned that, after becoming very drunk, Fergus had made an offensive comment about one of the men’s wives, asking how he could, as a black African man, be married to a white woman. (Fergus is a white African.) The man did not take kindly to this and put an end to their conversation.

On hearing this, my coworkers and I quickly paid our bill and tried to corral Fergus away and convince him to leave the restaurant. This proved difficult, as again and again he kept walking back to the men to try to apologize. They made it clear they did not want to hear it, they just wanted him to leave. I reiterated this to Fergus, saying, “We need to go. They’ve told us they want us to leave this here, so we need to leave it here.” He then turned on me, angrily called me the c-word, and said that I don’t understand because I am not African and it is in their culture to make things right, and I am a Trump American who will never understand their culture. He also said he wanted to kill me, and then find my husband and kill him. I took this calmly as we needed to leave the restaurant, and you can’t reason with a drunk person, but this malice really shook me. (Also, not that it matters as he was being ridiculous, but I am not aligned politically with Trump at all, and he knows this).

We thankfully made it out of the restaurant, where one of our coworkers took him back to her place to sober up before she felt he could reasonably take a taxi back to his hotel without harassing the driver. I received a text from him the next day apologizing for his appalling behavior and asking for forgiveness. I replied that I was thankful for the apology and glad to hear he made it home safely.

Now we are back at the office after the weekend, and I want nothing to do with him. I’ve heard him all morning walking down to my office to try and make right, and I’ve managed to avoid him so far. I will never spend time outside of work with him ever again, but I’m not sure how to proceed from here. Is this something that HR can take up? I don’t want to tank a person’s career over a drunk mistake, but this felt like more than that to me. He has really soured our working relationship. It all happened outside of work so I’m unsure of my options. I didn’t take his comments and threats to be real, but regardless, they were ugly.

For context, we are located outside of the United States.

I can’t speak to norms and laws outside the U.S. so this advice is necessarily from within my own cultural frame of reference (as is always the case) but: yes, talk to HR! Their purview doesn’t stop just because this happened outside of work; if you harass a coworker on your own time, it’s still harassment that your employer has a right to be interested in stopping.

And this wasn’t just “oh, a coworker got a little drunk and rowdy.” This was someone making racist comments, calling you an obscene slur, and threatening to kill you and your husband (!). This is way, way beyond needing to give him any benefit of the doubt or worrying about what the consequences to him might be. (If anything, worry about what could happen if he’s allowed to keep behaving this way without some kind of official intervention.)

If this was a one-time, out-of-character incident for Fergus (which I very much doubt), he’s free to explain that to HR. You don’t need to sort through what the appropriate consequences are; you just need to let them know it happened and assume they will take it from there.

If Fergus does approach you to try to “make it right,” you should feel free to tell him (ideally in writing, with HR cc’d) that you don’t want to discuss it further with him and that the contact is unwelcome and needs to stop.

2. We get bonuses for more dangerous work — are we unethical if we spread it around?

I work in a medical setting. Four or five times a week, we have to handle patients who have serious and infectious diseases. While we of course have safety precautions in place, there’s still a risk. So every time we do, we can claim a $10 allowance — with a catch. We may only claim it once per day.

So if a patient in this category comes in and has to be moved three separate times and I do it all three times, I still only get $10.

So I might say to my colleague Bob, “Hey I’ve already claimed my 10 bucks, when the call comes through, you should do the next move and claim yours” to spread the money around (any staff member can respond to any call). Bob in turn would let Carol know and she would take the next assignment and claim her allowance.

Is this ethical? We tend to do this very quietly and not draw management attention to it. We’re increasing the cost to the facility but also we’re reducing the risk for any one person, and the risk is the reason behind the allowance.

I’m hard-pressed to say it’s unethical — it’s the system that’s in place, and if they feel they’re paying out too much or people are taking advantage of it, they can revisit it.

The part that makes me a little uncomfortable is that you’re sort commodifying the patients themselves, who might feel weird knowing people are gaming out how they can make a bonus off of their infectious disease. (On the other hand, some patients might be delighted to help with that!) That makes it extra important to ensure you’re treating these patients with dignity and compassion and not losing sight of their humanity (important regardless, obviously) and that they’re not ever waiting a longer amount of time so Carol can show up even though Bob is right there and could otherwise do it. If it ever does build in a delay (for them or for another patient), that’s when I think it would cross over into unethical, because you’d be prioritizing the bonus above the person.

3. Too soon to brag about a new accomplishment?

I was recently selected to join a new advisory council initiative at my workplace that brings together different parts of the company so we can best work together. (I suspect I was the only person who applied to represent my role, two or three tops — so not a huge accolade.) I’m also low-key job searching right now.

My first question is how soon can I start listing this on my resume? We haven’t had our first meeting yet and might not for several weeks, by which point I definitely will have applied to a very promising position. It feels wrong to list it before we ever meet, but my friends say I’m too shy about showing off my accomplishments. And my second question is how to discuss this type of thing on applications. I would list it as a bullet point in my resume, right? Or wait to discuss it in an interview?

I wouldn’t put it on your resume until more has happened with it. If it’s on your resume, you may be asked about it, and you don’t want your answer to be, “Well, we haven’t done anything yet.” And just being appointed to it doesn’t really warrant using resume space (so far).

That said, if you ignore me and include it anyway, it’s not a huge problem! I’m just talking best practices here, not “a thing you must not do under any circumstances.”

4. My company wants to cut our pay retroactively

I’m in an industry hard hit by the federal cuts and our team just went through layoffs. I received a mass email from HR saying that we would be getting a pay cut retroactive to the beginning of the month (time worked but not yet paid). We were asked to send agreement via email ASAP as they were about to run payroll. A quick search of your site says a retroactive pay cut is not legal, but do you think the company successfully got around it by asking for agreement in writing?

Nope. Employers cannot cut your pay retroactively. They can cut it going forward — since then you have the chance to agree to work at that rate or to decline to (i.e., quit) — but they cannot reduce it after you’ve already done the work while thinking it was for your previously-agreed-upon rate. That doesn’t change just because they ask you to agree to it afterwards.

The way to handle it is to reply that you can agree to the cut going forward (if indeed you do agree to it) and then say, “But my understanding is that we can’t legally make it retroactive, even if people agree, and I don’t want us to get in trouble for that.” If they push back, the next move is to report it to your state department of labor. (That said, realistically that may put a target on your back at a time when they’re already cutting jobs, and I don’t want you to be unaware of that risk.)

5. Digital nomad visas

I am considering looking for a job that could be done remotely from anywhere and moving my family out of the U.S. using another country’s digital nomad visa (other country TBD). I was hoping some people may have done the same and would be willing to discuss experiences? I really trust your blog for advice.

Sure, I’m happy to throw this out to people with experience with digital nomad visas.

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{ 343 comments }

{ 343 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. nnn*

    Another ethical issue that occurred to me when reading #2 is if you have more workers in contact with infectious disease patients, does that increase the risk of infectious disease spreading through the facility/community as a whole, because you’d have more potential vectors?

    I’m not sure if my intuition on that is correct and I’m sure someone smarter than me has already done the math/science. But if it turns out that having more vectors would increase community risk, it might be worth having someone (professional association? union?) talk to the employer about his this policy is incentivizing higher community risk.

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    1. Bilateralrope*

      I was thinking the same. Though I’m not sure about that once I factor in one staff member transmitting something to other staff or patients.

      Still, the policy is getting staff to spread around who handles infectious patients. Instead of someone having to spend the whole day following those procedures.

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    2. Happy*

      Yes! This feels like a consideration that we all should have learned from COVID. I’m not going to hold it against the employees for trying to maximize their earnings, but I think a much (MUCH!) bigger ethical concern is how this increases risks to the employees themselves, and to the public, rather than how it might cost their employer more (which, who gives an F? these are peanuts compared to actual health risks to human beings).

      I’m really curious as to what the LW saw as the ethical question when they wrote in. Was it about “stealing” from their employer? Or exposing more people to diseases? The fact that they see this as reducing the risk to one person seems odd. Yes, it does, if you look at the other option where only one person is exposed and only consider that one single person’s personal risk, rather than considering the risk to everyone on the team as a whole…but it probably increases the risk to the team and community as a whole! So that seems like an odd potential vantage point.

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      1. bamcheeks*

        Or just that best patient care would be minimising the number of different people who look after someone. Care is about relationships and most patient care is organised around trying to balance the practicalities of rotas and trying to have relatively consistency in who looks after someone, both because it’s less stressful for the patient and because it less likely that critical information will get dropped/missed. It’s not a great policy for many reasons!

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        1. Corvidia*

          I am frankly horrified by this policy in just about every direction…
          the implication that medical staff would refuse to provide care to potentially infectious patients without that payment
          the suggestion that the level of exposure risk is unacceptable to staff without specific compensation (implying they don’t have appropriate protection)
          the idea that $10 is an appropriate compensation for the additional risk (I’d like to see the health economics working on that one, and legal advice on liability for workplace acquired infections)
          the undermining of consistent care relationships
          the undermining of cohorting of staff (which is one of the methods to track and control exposure)
          the risk that it contributes to gaming the system (that staff will be more inclined to classify patients as infectious to justify the bonus) …

          Just… wow. And no, it’s not ethical. In so many ways.

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          1. BethDH*

            If $10 is the real money amount, it makes me wonder if the payment is not for taking on the risk, but for the nuisance of following added protocols?
            It still doesn’t make sense to have it as once per day but the amounts and the existence of the payment in the first place make more sense to me if it’s more about added paperwork than disease exposure.

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            1. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

              Well, it’s obviously enough money to be attractive to the employees, because they are gaming the system to get the risk and reward!

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            2. MassMatt*

              In addition to the many issues others have pointed out–$10 is a pretty low compensation for risk for an infectious disease. I certainly hope they have the equipment, training, and protocols in place to prevent transmission, but if you get Hepatitis (or whatever) $10 is not going to be much solace.

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          2. Dido*

            You need to calm down. Hazard pay is standard in many industries; NOBODY said that they would refuse to provide care to infectious patients without an extra $10.

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          3. I mean, really*

            As a frontline healthcare worker who was in the trenches in a COVID hotspot and who has dealt with many dangerous infectious diseases (TB, Ebola, etc), I am horrified by this policy. It is such a corruption of patient care. You don’t motivate people to care for high risk patients by tossing $10 their way. You motivate them by valuing them as employees and giving them the equipment and training to be confident that they can keep themselves and their families safe while caring for their patients. As other have pointed out, it is terrible in terms of Infection Control, anuality of care, and patient experience. This policy is egregious from every angle.

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        2. Nightengale*

          generally I would agree with this, if it is any sort of clinical role. the fewer handoffs the better

          here it sounds more of a patient transport role, and while it might be marginally more pleasant to be transported by the same person 3x in one day rather than 3 different people, I’d be hard put to say this adds any real additional risk to patient care.

          (that’s outside of all the infectious disease and etc issues here which are huge. just that continuity of care doesn’t sound like a major factor.)

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          1. bamcheeks*

            Ahh, I was thinking of “move a patient” as in, healthcare assistant supporting someone to be rolled over or moved in and out of beds to have sheets changed, which is a bit more physically involved. If it’s more like portering and moving a bed or wheelchair with a patient in, then yeah, probably not a factor!

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          2. I own one tenacious plant*

            This makes so much sense. If that is the case then as someone else stated the $10 may be incentive to ensure time is taken to wear proper PPE. I don’t think it’s unethical to spread around the extra money. I do think it’s odd that it would be needed in the first place as protecting staff and patients should be base line, not an extra.

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          3. Ask a Manager* Post author

            My understanding is that it’s more patient transport (based on the original letter which used “moving teapots” as the stand-in until I asked to clarify).

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        3. Caffeine Monkey*

          I spent six weeks immobile in hospital with a shattered spine. I rarely saw the same nurse, physio, porter, anything twice. I only saw my consultant twice in the whole stay.

          The person who kept me sane was the lovely domestic who I saw twice a day, five days a week, and was able to actually build a relationship with. I still send her Christmas and birthday cards.

          I can’t tell you how much I wish I’d had any consistency of care.

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          1. Rex Libris*

            My uninformed layperson’s assumption has always been that the more random people that wander through your room, the more they can bill the insurance.

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              1. Rex Libris*

                I’ll try and remember that the next time I have a minor medical procedure, and see half a dozen doctors and specialists I never saw, talked to, or heard mentioned itemized on the bill.

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          2. Rincewind*

            that’s awful. It shouldn’t have been like that.
            I used to work as a CNA in a short-term subacute rehab facility (basically, you don’t need to be in a hospital but you aren’t well enough to go home/there are access issues with your home/you live alone and that’s not safe.
            The issue we had with continuity of care wasn’t in the staff; it was that we only had patients usually for days to weeks. I worked there for over a year and our longest stay was 4 months.
            But you ALWAYS got the same nursing aide on second shift – me. (We only had 19 beds, so on “slow” days it was me and a charge nurse.) I’d have help if we had lots of patients, but mostly it was just me.

            also, your comment about the domestic worker makes sense. I’ve always maintained that if you want a true picture of how a patient is doing, don’t ask their doctor. He’s (usually it was a he) seen that patient maybe a few times this month. You ask their aides. because that’s the person who knows how frequently the patient is using the restroom, how often they complain of pain, what the quality of their skin is. The aide has had their hands literally on that patient no more than 2-3 hours ago.

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      2. I Have RBF*

        So while the cumulative risk of 3x high risk patient interactions per day stays the same, spreading it between 3 people would reduce each individual’s risk. IMO, I’m not an actuary.

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    3. Artemesia*

      This will put an end to the bonus i.e. talking about it with management and about avoiding spreading the risk around.

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    4. Grasshopper Relocation LLC*

      I would say the answer here would have to be proper PPE; if you don’t give your employees masks, gloves et al, then rearranging your deck ch—staff won’t make a difference one way or another.

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      1. RC*

        Yeah, I think the risk to other patients depends on the extent of the PPE and other precautions (e.g. special equipment, dedicated wings, positive pressure in the room?), the particular disease and transmission mechanism (airborne vs body fluids vs needle stick), and infectiousness before/after symptoms present (i.e., would you have a chance to isolate before infecting anyone else; the asymptomatic transmission is part of the problem with covid).

        If there’s a big unmitigated risk (I assume/hope there isn’t for a number of reasons), that doesn’t even seem worth just $10 hazard pay though.

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      2. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

        This. How even is there a significantly heightened risk if people have correct PPE and correct procedures.

        (And really everyone in a medical setting should at least have PPE against covid these days – i.e. face-fitting respi-style masks, also protective against TB & measles – but systemic denial is high, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t.)

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        1. Cinn*

          I assume because there is always a chance (however slim) the PPE fails.

          For example, if I’m in the lab and start using toluene (repro tox & organ damage hazards) with all the right PPE, fumehood etc there’s still a bigger chance I’ll be exposed to those hazards than if I was using a safer solvent. Like the risk is minimised but still present. It’s why there’s a push to evaluate if there are safer alternatives for certain chemical hazards in our lab.

          Admittedly we don’t have extra haz pay for that, but all our safety stuff starts with eliminate being the best defence/strategy, and PPE being considered the last line of defence.

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        2. RIP Pillowfort*

          Because PPE is considered the last line of defense in hazardous conditions. It’s good- but it’s also subject to a lot more risk of failure. Masks fail, gloves break, etc. It’s rare but could happen.

          And because I have face fitting respi-masks for work. Those are supposed to be fitted for only you and have to be tested for fit. Once you start having to do really specific PPE it gets complicated fast.

          I work with hazardous chems/environmental situations and go through HAZWOPER. So it’s just kind of ingrained in me that when relying on PPE, you’re still at high risk.

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      3. The Body Is Round*

        There is a certain level of PPE that’s required by accrediting organizations and I suspect that’s already in place. A bonus like this on top of it is meant to distract workers from the fact that they aren’t getting paid enough to begin with.

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    5. JSPA*

      Or just greater risk that multiple team members are out for an extended period.

      though…

      If the money were intended as a nudge nudge wink wink for getting sick, the money itself would be an unethical work-around for not having acceptable safety gear and practices. (I have seen this in a lab setting for less- dangerous pathogens…and it deserves intense side-eye.)

      Conversely, if the money has a (main or secondary) purpose of focusing people on strictest possible adherence to practices, and best use of gear, there is something to be said for having that in play with each and every contact.

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    6. Zombeyonce*

      Exactly my thoughts. This policy is putting everyone at more risk, endangering both the staff and the patients in the long run. It would be more beneficial to increase overall pay and remove this incentive, or create a hazard pay that is higher but change the policy so the minimum number of people interact with each patient (no switching caregivers unless completely necessary).

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      1. I didn't say banana*

        This policy reminds me of the company that wanted to improve their product quickly by giving developers a bonus every time they fixed an error within three days. Of course, the developers began deliberately putting easily fixed errors in the product and the overall quality declined rapidly.

        Any policy that gives extra money has to be carefully designed so it doesn’t incentivise bad work. The policy at LWs workplace is silly, as it does motivate people to expose themselves every day (even if LW and coworkers weren’t helping each other do it, people would be trying to answer those patient calls).

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        1. Emmy Noether*

          Bonus policies are extremely hard to design to not create perverse incentives. I’ve personally encountered several examples in my work life.

          In this case, I could imagine changing it to giving a bonus to anyone present in the facility when there is a contagious patient there (depending on how frequently it happens). That would remove this specific incentive, but could have other unintended consequences.
          Or, here’s an idea, just pay people hazard pay for their hazardous job every day. If you calculate what you save by having less perverse incentives and less paperwork, it may not be much more expensive.

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          1. Nina*

            I was in a legally-defined ‘hazardous job’ at one point, and yeah, that was in my payslip every week, $X regular pay for a stage whatever llama-groomer, plus Y% of regular pay as recognition that these llamas were hazardous and the company had to pay a premium to get people to handle the hazardous llamas.

            What there wasn’t was haz pay by task, and the rationale was that this way nobody was incentivized to take on that particularly hazardous llama without appropriate controls (which would end up being much more expensive for the company if an accident happened). If you were a hazardous-llama-groomer, you groomed the hazardous llamas and part of your job was saying ‘hey these controls are not sufficient’ when it was true; if you weren’t, you didn’t have any contact with them, the end.

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          2. Strive to Excel*

            Change it to a per-day bonus instead of a per-transport bonus. Have people swap out who gets to be the designated “infectious disease transporter” person for the day.

            I suspect that’s already the intention of the bonus and it was just not correctly communicated. And no one’s doing the math on the back end and realizing they’re paying out more bonuses than days.

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        3. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          My guess is that the intent was to buoy morale for people who were going to put themselves into harm’s way anyway. I don’t have a problem with it if Bob and Bobbi are both current and Bob says to Bobbi “go ahead and take this one; I’ve earned my $10 bonus for the day.” I do have a problem with it if Bob says “this one can wait 15 minutes for Bobbi since I have my bonus and she doesn’t yet.”

          Probably, at this point, better to just convert it to a base $10 per diem and eliminate the moral hazard.

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      2. Phony Genius*

        The policy sounds like something that might be in a union’s collective bargaining agreement. Also, $10 seems a bit low; I wouldn’t be surprised if the actual number was changed by the LW to protect anonymity. But this is all speculation on my part, looking for reasonable explanations.

        Setting that aside, I’m a little surprised that the decisions of who moves which patient are not being made by supervisors. Once you have a type of assignment that comes with extra hazard and/or extra pay, supervisors should be making sure that those assignments are fairly and efficiently distributed.

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    7. No apples and honey 4 u*

      It seems like all the staff handle the contagious patients on a regular basis. It evens out over the week anyway – it’s just that it may not be even over the day.

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    8. A*

      I am just going to say that Covid gave a lot of lay people the confidence that they are infectious disease specialists.

      I think a lot of workplace issues lend themselves to really interesting discussions in this space. But every once in a while there is an issue that requires a lot of education and experience on a specific topic or field to form an opinion. This is one of them for me.

      If anybody in hospital administration, infectious disease control, or emergency room medicine would like to chime in that would be really helpful.

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      1. Whomst*

        My thoughts exactly. I’m not in the medical field or any kind of an expert, but I’m familiar with the term “viral load” and from that lens, maybe it makes it less likely for someone to get the infectious disease – instead of one person getting a lot of exposure you have multiple people getting smaller doses. Honestly, it probably depends on the disease and the PPE protocols. People are getting up in arms about it without having a full understanding of the issue.

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    9. Dogmomma*

      no, if you are following the hospital infectious disease guidelines ( which is in a big thick binder & regularly updated, ); it should be fine. They have quality control and regulatory processes in place). So TB..negative pressure room, gown, mask & gloves. Wound infection, gown and gloves. Etc. I’m retired & a few things may have changed, but you get the idea.

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      1. Alice*

        Yes there are regulations and guidelines… But then I started watching the public meetings of the CDC Hospital Infection Control and Prevention Advisory Committee, and wow, HICPAC has a deep divide between industrial hygienists who engage with the science of airborne disease transmission and physicians who are intellectually wedded to the droplet transmission model (and who incidentally hold leadership roles in healthcare systems that would pay higher PPE costs if they treated COVID and influenza like the airborne diseases they are).

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        1. MeepMeep123*

          I just had a hospitalized family member and I got into an argument with the hospital’s infection control person prior to the hospitalization. She did not appear to know that COVID is airborne (it is), or that N95 respirators are better source control than surgical masks for an airborne pathogen (they are), or, for that matter, what “source control” even meant. By the time we got to arguing about the definition of “source control”, I realized I had to take matters into my own hands and scheduled shifts for my family members to be there 24/7 to be the infection control department (wearing N95’s and insisting that everyone coming into the room wear N95’s). My family member did not get COVID at the hospital. As of this post, I now know 4 other people who got COVID this year during a hospitalization, including 2 who died of it.

          I would not take “hospital infectious disease guidelines” terribly seriously.

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    10. Beth*

      Given that it sounds like there is no separate staff for infectious disease–the staff member who first works with the infectious disease patient goes back and continues to work with the rest of their unit and their other patients–I don’t think this is the biggest deal. If the patient needs to be visited X times/day, and one person does them all but intermingles with the rest of the staff until/unless they’re symptomatic, is that really that different than if 3 people on the same team split the visits? We know from COVID that a lot of spread happens when people are asymptomatic.

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    11. Hyaline*

      This exactly. The LW says they use proper PPE but that there is still a risk (because of course there is!). They’re treating the risk of exposure as just “one task, one risk,” but that’s not the only equation you may need to use–there’s also how many different things you’re exposed to and how many people are exposed to the same thing. If everyone stuck one-to-one with a contagious patient, you would have one contagion per day that you were exposed to, possibly multiple times, but you could only risk that contagion. But if you pass them around, multiple people risk exposure to the same contagion, AND multiple people could risk exposure to DIFFERENT contagions, and then–because we all learned this from COVID–they’re potentially then exposing their network.

      So if Patient A is sick with Disease A and Patient B is down with Disease B, you could ideally have Staff A only dealing with Patient A and Staff B dealing with Patient B, and no one else is at risk of exposure, instead of distributing that risk to everyone AND having Staff A risking exposure to BOTH Disease A and Disease B–and their networks of contacts, which balloon from there.

      I can see some instances where the math really is “one task, one risk”; for example, the issue is drawing blood from an HIV positive patient or something, where mere contact is not an issue, and no network risk is really involved if you “carry” the contagion out unwittingly, but you could, technically, get a needle puncture. In that case, I’d say rock on to the LW and their colleagues with their system. But if not, I’d question the ethics of the system described by LW in passing around the risk not because it’s somehow wrong to make companies pay people more but because the systems they use should minimize overall risk.

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  2. Mid*

    LW 5: you said “moving my family”—does that mean minor children? And do you have a spouse who will also be looking for employment?

    Most digital nomad visas are for a year maximum, so if you are planning on moving with school age kids, make sure you’re aware of local education laws.

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    1. BellStell*

      LW 5 can look up the 13 EU countries that have these visa programmes. Basically tho some common requirements are
      Have remote work contractual agreements with clients or entities based and registered outside the respective nation to which they’re applying.
      Be capable of providing their services remotely using digital technology.
      Have adequate health insurance to cover their residency.
      Have a valid passport.
      Meet the minimum monthly income determined by the respective country to cover their cost of living.

      There are a lot of national websites with info that can help if you want to live in Europe.

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      1. Goreygal*

        “Be capable of providing their services remotely using digital technology.”

        OP be aware this can mean more than having an internet connection and wifi; it can also cover data protection laws. For example if you wanted to see Europe while working you might only be able to see EU countries in Europe as you are usually not allowed take a client’s/employers data outside the EU without specific informed consent.

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        1. Upside down Question Mark*

          American in Europe here to second this, European digital protection laws are really strict and quite a few US companies don’t want to deal with them period.

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        2. amoeba*

          Depends on the employer and the country for sure, I live in Switzerland and there’s a lot of back and forth with EU countries! But then Switzerland and Germany/France and Italy also have really close relationships and a lot of contracts etc., probably why it’s usually fine in this specific case. I imagine it might be the same for a place like Norway. Most of the rest of Europe is in the EU, anyways, so yeah – if you stay in Europe, you’ll most likely be fine, if you’d like to travel further, it would possibly need to be using PTO.

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          2. Goreygal*

            My point being you need to investigate and not presume. I live on the border of Northern Ireland and Ireland. Before Brexit I could work from in Ireland as my employers SLAs with clients referred to not taking data outside EU; since Brexit they changed them to UK. My favourite co-working hub that I used to go to for a break from working from home is less than a mile away but is across the border in Ireland so is no longer an option for me. IT have turned off our ability to access our systems from an non-UK IP address

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    2. Two cents*

      I’ve never done a digital nomad visa, but I have done many other kinds of visas: expect it to take longer and be more expensive than you think. With school aged children, the uncertainty factor, especially around timing but not only that, gives me pause. For example, the country that I am living in has legal requirements for children to attend school and there is no home schooling possible, so you would have to have a school spot BEFORE you move otherwise you face some serious legal issues. And depending on where you are and when you move, that might be easy or hard, especially if you do not know the language.

      Also, your work has to be OK with it, which is no small ask and may significantly shrink your options. They also will have to be compliant with the laws.

      Also also: get reeaally clear on your tax obligations. Maybe talk to a tax lawyer specialized in both countries (expensive) before you go. Especially if you don’t speak the language.

      Ack gotta go, maybe more later.

      Reply ↓
      1. RhubarbCrumble*

        yes! The tax implications are huge.

        Also are you going to be paid in US dollars still? Because the exchange rate to the country of your residence will fluctuate and your wage will not be a guaranteed amount each month in local currency. Plus exchange rate fees.

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        1. AF Vet*

          I’m living in Canada thanks to my spouse’s US Government job. The exchange rate nonsense is real!! To get our US money to work in Canada, we have two basic options:

          1. Credit card with no foreign transaction fee. We use this all the time every day for our basic necessities.

          2. A few Canadian banks have established US branches so they can offer Cross-Border banking. In reality this means our paycheck goes into our regular US bank. We then move some of it to the Canadian US checking account. We then move THAT over to the Canadian bank’s Canadian branch… which is actually a US Savings account?? Finally, I move the money into our Canadian checking account, from which I pay our rent & utilities. I’m charged a maintenance fee at each bank, and the hidden fee that is the less than accurate exchange rate. If 1 CAD = 0.60 USD, the bank charges me 0.63 USD. Not that big of a hit, until 1,000 CAD = 630 USD, vs 600. Multiply that by the amount I need to transfer monthly, and the hidden exchange fee adds up to a few hundred dollars. Because we have to provide a report of our rent & utilities for the Government reimbursement, I end up reporting the exchange rate as well.

          Also? NEVER accept the conversion rate offered at an ATM. I pulled out $300 CAD last week. The ATM offered it for $231. It hit my bank at $215. The exchange rate tends to be where banks make their money, so check your statements carefully.

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          1. Baldrick*

            Agreed that exchange rates and banking fees quickly add up. I briefly worked for NATO, and one of the better benefits they provided was converting up to half of our pay from Euros into dollars at the current posted rate (the conversion was limited to your home country, so I could only request dollars, Brits could only request pounds, etc). My bank had a very low transfer fee, and I learned later that this was lucky.

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          2. Smithy*

            That exchange rate piece HURTS.

            I used to live outside of the US, had a local job and a local bank account. However, for a period of time, I was renting from essentially a third government for my apartment. The building in question was owned by another government, and the consulate rep would come by once a month to collect rent in cash, in US dollars. So every month, I had to make that exchange. Luckily the entire time I lived there, the exchange rate never wildly fluctuated but it was a very real concern that at any point I could be facing a wild rent increase.

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            1. peregrinations*

              Yes, this. I lived and worked in Canada for several years while still paying student and car loans back in the US in US dollars. When I took the job the exchange rate was close to 1:1, but shortly after I moved it dropped to ~1.3:1. Which meant the cost of my US loans just increased 30%. That’s tough when you’re on a small postdoc salary!

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          3. Can/US dual nomad*

            Noooo no no. Use Wise or another company that does international money transfers. Way better rates. Requires a few days of planning in advance, though.

            Reply ↓
            2. AF Vet*

              I’d love to buy the only way to pay rent to our landlord is via Interac or paper checks. And I had to fight to get Interac!!

              Bah.

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      2. Alexander Graham Yell*

        Taxes were my concern, too – with this kind of set up you need to be MORE comfortable with both tax systems than people on work-sponsored visas.

        Plus having proof of health insurance and understanding how the system works and how to find doctors is important (I know when I moved to France I had noooo clue and wouldn’t have figured it out as quickly as I needed to without having French coworkers – and then repeat this ad nauseam for every other hoop I’ve had to jump through, down to how to get an appointment to pick up my residence permit).

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      3. Smithy*

        I do think the expense thing is a huge call out that’s an incredibly relevant piece. There are direct costs, but then also so so many indirect costs to keep in mind. One quick example can just be with housing, where if you’re looking for a furnished place – those listings are often pricier and are available in lower quantities.

        Because so many things like this can just continually increase costs, it is why so many people drift towards options that offer support. That kind of support can look like joining some kind of employment program (i.e. teach English abroad), working through religious entities, or private service consultants. Depending on what you want, some of these will deliver on what they promise – but again, because these costs can snowball – some can seriously under deliver or be out n out scams.

        I work for an international organization, and in the US – we have a consultant that we can pay to help us secure expedited visa/passport services. I was once talking about this with colleagues from outside the US, and to them it 100% sounded like something illegal. For me, I know (or rather assume) our consultant is operating legally within the US due to my employer having vetted them to be an approved vendor. But it’s just an example of when you’re seeking this out on your own – it can be more work.

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    3. CityMouse*

      Yes, I have family in an EU country and their rules about when kids can be out of school are different from US rules.

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        1. Media Monkey*

          but i would say that at least in the UK there isn’t the infrastructure around homeschooling that appears to exist in the US. it does happen but it is by no means common so i would say that outside of the largest cities there are unlikely to be homeschooling groups to join.

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          1. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

            I wouldn’t go that far. I hate to have to recommend Facebook, but there are tons of little UK home ed groups on there, as well as national discussion groups for advice on taking exams, and regional groups (with maybe a couple of thousand families) where you can ask who else is near you. From what I’ve seen, home ed networking in the UK only gets really tricky if you’re in a rural area with poor public transport and no car.

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          2. Puffshroom*

            As a British home educator who knows quite a few American homeschoolers, I would say that it’s a different vibe but not necessarily worse. There isn’t the same culture of people coming together to create co-ops, so less ‘formal’ feeling infrastructure. But the numbers are rising a lot (as they seem to be in many countries since Covid) and there are plenty of places with thriving communities and lots of activities. It also is a much more ‘alternative’/lefty choice – there isn’t really the same contingent of religious people who don’t want their kids to be educated by the state. (And I prefer that!!) The legal position is a bit vague, so the oversight can change a lot depending on the county (avoid Portsmouth!!), and I would agree that the best source is Facebook groups. There’s a big one called ‘Home Education UK’ that frequently has people asking for advice about where to live for an active community and a reasonable local council! (There is also possibly new legislation coming in to increase oversight, but I’m not super up to date on it because I’m currently living abroad.)

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        2. Emmy Noether*

          Even if it’s an option, there may be a lot of hoops to jump through, which may be complicated by a different language and a different curriculum (for example, there may be regular assessment tests – in which language are these administered, and are they aligned with what your child has already learned, or will you be playing catch up?) Also, if you are working, and also want to benefit from actually being there, do you really have time to teach?

          Easier than homeschooling may be putting the kids in a private international school. These are full of expats, and very used to teaching short term stay kids, and mid-year arrivals/departures. Most have English as an option.

          Definitely something to look into in detail beforehand!

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          1. AF Vet*

            Also for schooling, look out for IB (International Baccalaureate) vs AP for transferable college credit. AP is essentially de facto in the US, but IB seems more recognized elsewhere. It’ll come into play in high school – the schools we used in the States offered AP classes as early as 10th grade. The IB program only works in 11th & 12th, which are their diploma years.

            This will hit us. One of ours will be finishing 9th and the other 7th when we move again. If we choose to keep them in IB, that’s committing to private schools in the US – and there aren’t a lot of IB options outside larger cities. If we switch to AP, the classes are more structured, which might not make sense for our high schooler. For instance IB Prep doesn’t go by one path for math – i.e. Algebra, Geometry, Algebra 2, Pre-Calc. AP Calc – they’re touching on all of them in a logical flow. Also, because we live in Canada, they obviously aren’t teaching US history (except in how it affects them), but they DO offer it as an elective for kids who want to go to college in the US. Most high school graduation requirements include US history, so if you’re moving kids back later in high school, they might have to catch up.

            I’m not discouraging you from trying out the nomad life!! I’m incredibly grateful that my kids are getting this AMAZING opportunity. I’m just passing on some lessons we’re learning the hard way. :D

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            1. badger*

              Nearly all of the IB schools in my state were public schools when I did it (including mine) and several were outside the more urban areas. Admittedly 25 years ago but I know my high school still offers it.

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              1. april_snow*

                local public schools (big midwestern city) are IB rather than AP. (This is current, younger kid graduated last spring)

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              2. bishbah*

                Same here! My IB program was at a U.S. public high school 30 years ago. They even had a “pre-IB” coursework track at my public junior high. It wasn’t perfect—many of the classes were dual IB/AP-BC with a heavy emphasis on the AP curriculum. I got very unpleasantly surprised on my upper-level math exam by some topics we never covered. And my top-tier U.S. university gave me almost nothing in credit. Still I’m glad I did it.

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              3. Majnoona*

                My kids in a small college town in Alabama had IB programs in the public high school. The teachers worked with international students who had specific programs going (e.g., ceramics) either in the school or courses at the university.

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            2. MissMuffett*

              It sucks that where ever you are going means private for IB. In Denver alone we have multiple public HSs with IB, and even middle and elementaries with the lower-grade IB curriculums!

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              1. Boomburbian*

                In my city (a semi-suburb/edge city of a major US city) one of the six public high schools has an IB program, but there’s a lottery to get in.

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            3. Amy*

              FWIW there are some public schools outside of US cities that do offer IB programs! My daughter attended IB middle and high schools in a small town in southern Maine. I think the IB program is stronger in some aspects than others, and not all colleges will give credit for all IB courses, but of course that is true with AP credits as well.

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              1. AF Vet*

                Thanks, all!! I stand corrected! I hadn’t seen it yet at any of our public high schools, but I was more focused on elementary level at the time. I’ll keep it on my radar. :)

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    4. M2*

      If you have the money and want to get another degree look into student visas. My friend, her spouse and 3 kids moved to Italy last year. The spouse works for himself and they sold their home and made a ton of money. Her spouse is getting a PhD (I think) so they all got visas that way. She cannot work and they send the kids to private schools, so unless you have $ this might not be an option, but she loves it. They rent and say it is very cheap to live and the cost to send all 3 kids to private is less than sending 1 to private in the US. Insurance is also cheaper.

      You could also look into those 1 euro home schemes. Honestly I think you might have an issue with the digital nomad visa, I think it mostly is for “influencers” or people with a blog, and meant for short term situations.

      If none of the above work look into companies that have US offices. Might be good to work in the US office and then move from within. A former college roommate worked for Hubspot in Boston and then moved to one of their EU offices years ago and is still there.

      My spouse moved abroad for work and I went, but my visa initially meant I could not work. Then, I found work and had to go through the process while I was there. So really understand what the visa means and follow it. Good luck!

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      1. Mid*

        I wouldn’t say those visas are meant for influencers, though they’ve certainly popularized them. But, there is an emphasis on the nomad part. They are not long term visas, they don’t really open the door to permanent relocation to any country, and they don’t typically allow you to look for work in the country you’re staying in. You have to already be employed, for a company that’s okay with you moving to a new country every year, or self employed and with a really good tax attorney and accountant. If you have a spouse, they’ll need to be okay with not working or have the same job situation as you. (You also can’t typically hire them to work for your business on a nomad visa. I’m not sure how something like co-owning a business would work. I also believe if you own your own business, you’ll need to keep an active HQ somewhere that is not where you’re currently doing your digital nomad visa—you aren’t allowed to open your business in that country, just be employed.)

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    5. LW5*

      LW 5 here- thank you everyone for your replies! Lots of great information. My one child is not quite 2, so there is some time before the school issue comes into play. I originally wrote in because I am a government worker and my job has been quite in question- still going on for now, but I am applying to a lot of jobs that either have headquarters in US/EU or fully EU that would sponsor me. We’ve actually also looked into the €1 Euro house program as an option. I was really hoping someone might have experience with the visa, eg if they were actually extremely difficult to get , if you’d found a community that was particularly friendly towards expats etc. Spains program in particular was of interest to us (husband and I speak Spanish, plus it seems as if after 5 years you can apply for full citizenship). But again thank you for replies, I wrote in in a bit of a panic and while I’ve had time to solidify my plan a little more, still hadn’t thought about some things like insurance yet.

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      1. AF Vet*

        I grew up in the military, including living in Germany from 3-6 years old. If you can figure out how to pull this off, DO IT. It is so incredibly rewarding to immerse your kid in a completely foreign culture – everything from learning that the US isn’t the center of the world and the world is an awfully BIG place, to being able to speak Spanish like a native Spaniards and then giggling at all the linguistic differences between Old World and New… there are so many benefits to having your kids live internationally for a few years when they’re young. Yes, figuring out healthcare, insurances, etc is absolutely a headache. But the experience your family will have is worth it. :)

        It’s too bad the State Department is just as vulnerable on the chopping block. They’d be a great place to try. Also the DoD still has a Navy port in Spain. Actually, you might see if you can reach out to the family resource center on Rota… they MIGHT be able to help you?

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      2. FricketyFrack*

        I’ve been looking into moving to Spain, either on a non-lucrative visa, or the digital nomad visa, but everything I’ve seen says it’s very difficult to do the latter in many cases. As far as I’m aware, you can’t be a W-2 employee, and even being a 1099 contractor can be suspect if you’re not contracting with multiple entities because it can be seen as a way to try to circumvent the requirements. Depending on what you do, it might be possible to get a job to sponsor a work visa, but even that can be tough because they have to show that no one in the entire EU is willing/able to do it first.

        The advice I’ve seen pretty much universally is that if you can find a job with an employer headquartered outside of Spain and either work at their local office or remotely, you’ll be far better off in terms of salary and working conditions. There are a lot of issues with Spaniards being expected to work very long hours, wages are low, and contracts are often short/part-time. It can also be difficult to find housing because Spanish landlords don’t generally care about credit built outside of Spain and they’ll often try to get immigrants to pay a whole year upfront.

        Also, it’s 5 years to apply for permanent residency, 10 years for full citizenship, unless you meet the qualifications for the 2 year expedited citizenship (iirc it’s mostly people from Latin America and Sephardic Jews). Technically, they require you to renounce your US citizenship, too, but it sounds like that’s really not enforced much.

        To be clear, I don’t say this to be discouraging, because I’m obviously still considering it despite the challenges. It’s just that the more research I do, the more I realize it’s going to be a giant pain in the ass, especially with Spain’s veeeeery slow bureaucracy.

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      3. Alexander Graham Yell*

        Getting sponsored is honestly the best if you can get it (it’s what I have and has made life so much easier than it would have been).

        I’d really suggest a slight reframe – if you’re looking for citizenship, you’re looking to *immigrate*. Looking at different immigration policies, seeing what’s been at risk recently (for example, I’m in France, and there have been some changes to immigration policy and naturalization since I moved here), and what changes have been made is going to help you much more than looking at how friendly a specific community is to expats. Expat implies impermanence, and if you’re looking to relocate you’ll really want to focus on things like “Do they have programs to help with language/cultural immersion?” because that’s going to make your life there long-term a lot easier than “Can I find things in English right away”.

        Best of luck, I grew up in international schools (one of my parents got a series of expat contracts when I was growing up) and I immigrated a few years ago, and it’s an experience I wouldn’t change for anything. Even when it’s hard (often), it’s worth it.

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      4. Beth*

        Really all of the people I know who have successfully moved to Europe and stayed long-term have done either what you’re trying to do (get a job at an EU company that will sponsor them), or have entered as a university student and transitioned to working there after graduation. Things like a digital nomad visa sound tempting at first glance, but everyone I know who’s tried to go that route has either found it logistically too hard to get, or has found there are too many barriers to renewing for them to get permanent residency.

        Given everything going on in the US, I’m honestly jealous of my friends who have built a long-term life in Europe. But I’ve watched what it took for them to do it, and it wasn’t easy! Even when they came in speaking the language and with a solid visa sponsorship, pretty much all of them took 3-4 years to really feel at home in their new country. Up until then, it was a lot of culture shock, isolation, feeling cut off from friends and family back home, “it costs how much to renew this visa/get this documentation/file this application?” moments, re-learning how to navigate daily life in a new culture, etc. It’s been a very rewarding experience for those that stuck with it, but it’s clearly also really hard. I think it works best when you go in expecting that and knowing you really want to make it work in spite of it.

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      5. Kay*

        Spain is not 5 years, it is 10. Also, if it matters, they don’t recognize dual citizenship. While the “statement” you have to make is largely symbolic as the US likes to keep its citizens, keep in mind – that is current day. There has been plenty of talk of the US punishing people who leave the country. Also, really really know your taxes! Especially if you are going to be looking at foreign citizenship. Banking and taxes are more complicated for US citizens outside the country.

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        1. Alexander Graham Yell*

          Oh god, taxes. Filing is a nightmare, keeping track of deadlines is a nightmare, figuring out which countries tax on realized gains vs. unrealized gains if you have ANY investments is a nightmare if you’re going to factor that in, and what the earning/asset limits are and whether you may end up being taxed twice is a nightmare, inheritance can be a nightmare – and even just getting a bank account! I had to use an online bank for almost a year until I could get a French bank account. It took ages to find a banker willing to take a chance on me, and then the paperwork took almost 2 months before I got my account opened.

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      6. Ann O'Nemity*

        One thing to keep in mind when looking at countries – digital nomad visas can offer incredible freedom, but they’re still tied to geopolitical stability and diplomatic relationships, which are completely out of your control. When tensions rise between countries, visa policies can shift quickly (revoked statuses, shortened timelines, or denied renewals) leaving people in a vulnerable and disruptive position.

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      7. Mid*

        That all makes sense! And it also seems like digital nomad visa isn’t actually the one you want/would be the best fit. The nomad part of digital nomad is really key. Getting sponsored by your employer and building a stable base in a single country with the goal of permanent residency sounds more up your alley. (Also, if you linger on the digital nomad forums, there do seem to be persistent feelings that digital nomad visas hold people back on their quest towards citizenship in their desired new country. I don’t think it actually counts against people, but it does seem like it often doesn’t count towards your residency years when applying for more permanent residency.)

        I know a few people who have done digital nomad visas, and all were in their early 20s, liked staying in one place for 6 months or less, and had jobs that were self-paced and really flexible (and not necessarily great paying but enough to cover the minimum in every country.) Their plan was always to nomad for a year or two and then settle back in their country of origin, where they had citizenship. They all also ended up very broke by the end because of all the extra expenses of being nomadic that they didn’t account for.

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      8. The mountains, they call to me*

        InterNations creates a yearly ranking of The Best & Worst Destinations for Expats. I don’t know anything about the organization, but it’s been an interesting reference point for me. They rank Spain in the top 10 and I’ve heard similar experiences from several other people. Mexico is also ranked quite highly, although I think a majority of the expats are retired and not families. I dunno if it has what you’re looking for, but I’ve heard people have found the people very friendly and welcoming, it’s in the same timezones as the US and much closer for visiting family, etc than Europe. When I looked at it briefly the requirements for getting residency were quite low and remote work is allowed without a work visa.

        I moved to Italy through my husband’s work when my kids were 2 and 4. The transition was still pretty hard for my 4 year old, who is pretty shy, but she had 2 years to pick up the language before starting primary school and overall I would say was a great time to transition them.

        Going through the visa and relocation process was really hard, even with the company facilitating a lot of it, and as someone else said, having local coworkers to ask a million questions about day to day things. I can’t imagine going through it without that (although that’s also probably why Italy is ranked in the bottom 10 for expats)

        Reply ↓
        1. Expat Curious*

          +1 to Mexico. I have visited Puerto Vallarta about 8 times in the past 10 years and I’m now seriously looking into moving. If you work remotely you can stay for up to 4 years without a special visa, and there are no extra tax burdens for the worker or employer. Establishing permenant resident status is also relatively easy.

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  3. Sleeve McQueen*

    LW1: My word. Fergus went so far over the line that it’s no longer visible because it’s over the horizon, and you’re almost about to complete a circumference and cross it a second time. Coworkers that threaten to kill you should most definitely be reported to HR, and in fact, if they in any way minimise his drunken belligerent behaviours, it may be a sign to start job hunting.

    Reply ↓
    1. Artemesia*

      This. If he had only gotten sloppy drunk and embarrassing then seeing he got back to the hotel and letting it go would be the right thing to do. But OMG in no culture is calling someone this word and threatening to kill you and your family not outrageous. You would have been justified in calling the cops on him. This guy should not be representing your company and you should never have to be in the same room with him again.

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      1. allathian*

        Absolutely. Fergus needs to face some serious consequences for his absolutely gross behavior.

        Alcohol is no excuse, either, Fergus was responsible for drinking too much. I’m not discounting the possibility that sometimes junior employees may feel pressure to drink more than they want (or at all) at company events if the boss is buying, but I seriously doubt anything like that happened here.

        All alcohol does is remove the filters adults normally have that prevent us from acting on our most deplorable impulses. But if you genuinely aren’t a racist, no matter how drunk you get you won’t start spouting racist hate speech. All alcohol does when you’re sufficiently inebriated is reveal your hidden biases, the ones you’re often unwilling to acknowledge even to yourself, and at the very least generally know better not to express when you’re sober. The old Romans got it right with “in vino veritas.”

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        1. Crencestre*

          This x 1,000!

          “When people show you who they are, believe them the first time.” Fergus just showed you who he is when HIS filter is off; he’s a racist who also thinks that using misogynistic slurs and threatening murder is just ducky. That’s who he is. That’s WHAT he is!

          Now, of course, he realizes that what he said could get him into a pickle at work and is desperately trying to smooth things over in the hopes that you WON’T go to HR and reveal his true character. Which, of course, is all the more reason to go straight to HR and let them know exactly what he said. And Alison is right – Fergus should NOT be representing your company, and if HR is any good at all then pretty soon he no longer will be!

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        3. Boomburbian*

          I may have tried to fight people once or twice when I was drunk (as a younger man), but I have never threatened to kill anyone.

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      2. goddessoftransitory*

        Fergus was damn lucky that the man he insulted so disgustingly didn’t pop him in the nose. A bollicking by HR is the least he deserves.

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    2. Ellis Bell*

      Yeah, I feel like the line on telling HR someone is making you uncomfortable is way, way short of death threats. I know OP says they didn’t take their threats to be real, but they should not even have to make that assessment about a coworker.

      Reply ↓
      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Yes. When you have to even theoretically wonder “is my co-worker serious about his threat to murder me?” The line has vanished over the horizon.

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    3. Empress Ki*

      “Coworkers that threaten to kill you should most definitely be reported to HR.” People who threaten to kill you should be reported to the police ! Also to HR since it’s a coworker, but to the police first.

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      1. Don't You Call Me Lady*

        I don’t think a call to the police is warranted in this case – talking to HR should be good enough

        Reply ↓
        1. DJ Abbott*

          But if Fergus threatens her and her husband again, definitely take whatever steps are necessary to protect themselves.
          America has a long history of people who made threats that were dismissed as jokes, and they were not. That’s why law enforcement takes every threat seriously, no matter how joking it seems.

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          1. metadata minion*

            “That’s why law enforcement takes every threat seriously, no matter how joking it seems.”

            Frequently they really, really don’t.

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          2. SimonTheGreyWarden*

            If law enforcement took every threat seriously then some of the bad shit that has happened to me would never have happened.

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          3. Heinous Eli*

            “America has a long history of people who made threats that were dismissed as jokes, and they were not. That’s why law enforcement takes every threat seriously, no matter how joking it seems.”

            I really, really wonder where you are getting this information.

            Reply ↓
            1. Ann Onymous*

              In America, unfortunately, the seriousness with which law enforcement treats a threat can be very dependent on the demographics of the person feeling threatened and the person they feel threatened by.

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              2. Bitte Meddler*

                And sometimes the police officer hides in the train conductor’s vestibule when a crazed man is violently attacking passengers with a knife. And when one of the passengers who almost died sues the police officer / department, he is told to take a hike because law enforcement officers don’t actually have a duty to protect people.

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          4. Velawciraptor*

            As someone who has worked professionally with law enforcement for more than a decade, I can tell you they most certainly do not take every threat seriously. You can generally estimate how seriously they’ll take a reported threat by looking at the reporting party’s sex, race, socioeconomic status, and criminal history. Someone making threats against a rich white man who just has a couple parking tickets in their background will be treated much more like something real than someone threatening a homeless woman of color with survival crimes (shoplifting, panhandling, trespassing, etc) in her history, even though realistically, she’s the person at more risk.

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          5. DJ Abbott*

            Sorry, I think I confused what law-enforcement says with what it does. I have heard anecdotes about people making jokes about taking illegal things across the border, and border patrol getting very serious with them. I’m sure there’s a lot of variation in the actual practice of this.

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            1. Starbuck*

              Oh yeah. If you’re, say, a woman online who talks about misogyny etc in nearly any field. you’re going to get death threats via social media as soon as you gain any visibility. Cops, infamously, are totally incompetent at dealing with this and often don’t believe it’s any kind of crime worthy of their time. Some states are passing laws to get them to deal with this. But they absolutely DO NOT take threats received online seriously, even when they have details like home addresses, children and pets names, etc included.

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            2. Lenora Rose*

              At the border, someone making a joke about an illegal substance gives the border patrol the chance to lord their power over someone helpless to stop them.

              However, a woman being threatened with murder by a drunken coworker doesn’t give the police the same opportunity. There’s someone there trying to hold them accountable and make them do real work, it’s not the same at all.

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        2. Seashell*

          I think the time has passed to call the police, unless Fergus makes another threat, as Fergus will just claim it was drunk talk. However, I would have seriously considered calling on that evening. He could have actually tried to do what he threatened while drunk. Maybe he was too drunk to be successful, but I wouldn’t have wanted to wait around and find out.

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      2. Cordelia*

        I think the police should have been called at the time. I’m astonished your coworker took him back to her house – I understand the desire to protect the taxi driver but if someone is too drunk and aggressive to get in a taxi or to stay in a public place then they are not coming back to my house. I think you and your coworkers are being overly sympathetic to Fergus, who is now facing no consequences to his behaviour. I wouldn’t report to police now, but definitely HR.

        Reply ↓
        1. KateM*

          I was pretty amazed at that, too, especially as the coworker was female – I would be more worried about my own safety at that point.

          Reply ↓
          2. Grizabella the Glamour Cat*

            When I read the part about the coworker taking Fergus home with her, I raised my eyebrows so high that I felt like they were floating over the top of my head for a moment there. Yikes.

            Reply ↓
        2. MsM*

          Ditto. That’s not blaming you, OP; I get being shocked and/or just wanting to get out of there and away from Fergus without a bunch of extra hassle. Just confirmation that it is in fact that bad, and at least getting it on record with HR is a good idea.

          Reply ↓
        3. Don't You Call Me Lady*

          If it’s worthy of calling the police at the time, maybe she can still call them now?

          I suppose we dont’ know when this was written, but if it’s just this past weekend I don’t think it’s too far past the time.

          Of course LW might just chalk it up to drunken nonsense as bad as it was, and might not feel a police report is necessary

          Reply ↓
      3. Observer*

        People who threaten to kill you should be reported to the police !

        Maybe so in theory. In practice, that’s not going to do anything. The report might not even get into the police’s system.

        Even if the police do take it seriously and have the resources to spend on it, there really is nothing they can do. Because a single drunken threat is not a crime and the guy doesn’t even live in that city.

        Reply ↓
    4. English Rose*

      Completely agree.
      The other part of this I found really strange was “one of our coworkers took him back to her place to sober up before she felt he could reasonably take a taxi back to his hotel without harassing the driver. ” So a female coworker took this drunk and threatening man back to her place? Huh??

      Reply ↓
        1. Observer*

          I certainly hope so!

          Still a stupid thing to do, to be honest. But a little less stupid.

          I get that she was trying to do the best she could under difficult circumstances. But I think that everyone involved, *except for Fergus* was too busy trying to avoid a scene rather than dealing with the issue at hand.

          LW, I don’t want to criticize how you handled the situation. But I think it’s really important to realize that it is NOT your job to protect Fergus from himself or the consequences of his behavior. You’ve already swallowed *gross* abuse and your coworker literally put herself at risk to keep him from getting into worse trouble. But that really needs to stop.

          If you *really* want to protect people, report him to HR. Because that way hopefully at least his coworkers will be protected from his behavior. And who knows, perhaps the consequences will be the thing that gets him to do something about his alcohol (ab)use, and perhaps to keep his mouth shut.

          Reply ↓
      3. OP #1*

        OP here – there is a part of the story I didn’t include – after he made the comments to me and we walked outside of the bar, he did start to calm down and shifted his mode to self-deprecating, “my career is over, it’s all too much” talk as he spoke to my coworker, and at no point was he hostile to her. Looking back, we should have left him to experience the real-life consequences of his actions in the moment – the bar security was very ready to throw him out.

        At the time, our reasoning was a mixture of a having had a few drinks ourselves, combined with the concern for the blowback on our organization’s reputation if we didn’t get him out of there, since he had shared where we work with a few people in the bar. While he doesn’t live and work in our country every day, we do, and the last thing we need is a racist incident on all the socials when that’s not representative of the organization – just this guy.

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        1. toolegittoresign*

          You’re a very understanding person but I want to reframe this for you.
          1. This will not “tank” his career. This will give him a serious wake up call to assess his behavior and judgement. If he can’t prevent incidents like this, then he’s tanked his own career.
          2. I know you’re thinking of this as a drunk mistake, but you need to be thinking of it from a judgement perspective. If he has such bad judgement that he’ll allow himself become this intoxicated to the point where he can’t control his behavior… how long before his bad judgement starts showing up at work? How can you know it hasn’t already? What if the next time is worse, impacts your company, and you never said anything? Say something now so that it never happens again.

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          1. OP #1*

            I shared down below, but I did end up making a report to HR yesterday, and later shared the full story with my manager today. Will need to wait and see the end result through the disciplinary process they end up taking, but the immediate result was that my manager was horrified and cut his business trip short, sending him back on an earlier flight.

            Reply ↓
            1. Observer*

              the immediate result was that my manager was horrified and cut his business trip short, sending him back on an earlier flight.

              That’s good to hear!

              Because I am far less worried about his career than the problems he poses. The fact that your manager took such decisive action is a really good sign.

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            2. MigraineMonth*

              I am very glad to hear he is no longer in the same country as you, OP! I know you didn’t take his threats as real, but he did not sound like a good person to be around.

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            3. toolegittoresign*

              good for you on deciding to report it! You did the right thing. Hopefully Fergus learns and grows from this.

              Reply ↓
        2. Observer*

          he had shared where we work with a few people in the bar

          Ouch! That means that he absolutely made this an HR issue, even before the rest of his behavior.

          he did start to calm down and shifted his mode to self-deprecating, “my career is over, it’s all too much” talk as he spoke to my coworker, and at no point was he hostile to her

          Still a bad move. I get why she did it, but it’s important to realize that given what had gone before she was still taking a risk of him going off on her again for whatever reasons. This is a person with zero self regulation and bizarre ideas.

          the last thing we need is a racist incident on all the socials when that’s not representative of the organization – just this guy

          Again, all the more reason to go to HR. Which is to say that I am really glad that you went. And that you should absolutely be confident in your decision even if someone makes a comment about “ruining” the career of a “good guy”.

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    5. Harper*

      Right? I truly don’t understand why people are hesitant to “tank” someone’s career when they’ve behaved so heinously. Fergus tanked his own career and his working relationships, and he’s an effing nightmare. Report him, like, yesterday. I would have zero hesitation.

      Reply ↓
      1. Crencestre*

        Judges have been known to let a young man get away with rape because imposing a normal prison sentence would impact his future. Unfortunately, that happens far too often in our culture.

        Reply ↓
    6. Girasol*

      Seems like Fergus’s idea of “making it right” involves annoying people until he gets some sort of response that he wants, perhaps a statement of forgiveness. He’s trying to wrong his victims twice. No wonder they say “Just go away.”

      Reply ↓
      1. SunriseRuby*

        I concluded much the same thing. His attempts to “make things right” were done to cover his own behind and had NOTHING to do with concern for the people he harmed and making appropriate amends.

        Reply ↓
    7. Beth*

      Yes, the threats take this from “It was off campus but HR would probably still be interested” to “100% report this to HR and look for ways to never work together again.”

      Reply ↓
  4. WS*

    Fergus is a white African.

    So is my dad, and I see nothing of him or his culture here (except for some weird entitlement over Black Africans, there sure is that sometimes). And I’m sure nobody’s culture covers the rest of it.

    Reply ↓
    1. JSPA*

      Yeah, this seems like a Fergus problem and an alcohol problem. We could hand wave about cultures / subcultures that historically did or didn’t normalize problem drinking (or excuse things said or done while drunk), but that’s a red herring flopping down a rabbit hole, and there’s nothing to be gained from following it down.

      He’s not drinking with his great uncle back on the farm; he’s in an international business setting. He broke all the norms and stomped through all the boundaries.

      And actually, by insisting on apologizing (that’s a thing he wants to do) when you don’t want to hear it (you do not consent), he is continuing to ignore boundaries in some of the same ways, even while cold-sober.

      Reply ↓
      1. KateM*

        Exactly what I was thinking – Fergus is harassing OP at work0place while (presumably) sober, that is a problem in itself.

        Reply ↓
      2. Somehow I Manage*

        It reminds me of something a (now-problematic) comedian said a long time ago. “Alcohol enhances your personality, but what if you’re an a**hole?”

        I think the drinking probably was an enhancer here, but it seems Fergus was someone OP wouldn’t have chosen to hang out with had someone not brought him along.

        Reply ↓
      3. Emily Byrd Starr*

        Exactly. There is NO culture where threatening to kill people is acceptable (at least no civilian culture, anyway).

        Reply ↓
      4. Observer*

        that’s a red herring flopping down a rabbit hole

        LOL! I love the image.

        But, also 100% true. With your whole comment.

        Reply ↓
    2. Ellis Bell*

      If it wasn’t for the deeply scary ugliness of the rest of it, saying “it is in their culture to make things right” would be funny. That is some nonsense, right there.

      Reply ↓
      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        Its his culture to not get in trouble for his actions. he’s not really sorry he just doesn’t want to get in trouble for it.

        Fergus is doing the equivalent of It Was Just A Joke, Can’t You Take A Joke.

        Reply ↓
      2. Elbe*

        Especially by “making things right” he basically means just continuing to harass people who want nothing to do with him so that he doesn’t have to feel bad about how he’s acted. It’s entirely self-serving to try to force someone to listen to your apology and forgive you.

        Reply ↓
    3. Juicebox Hero*

      Plus, if Fergus is a white African, he should know better than anyone that Africa is a huge continent full of different countries full of different cultures and there are no “one size fits all” rules or mores.

      Reply ↓
      1. MassMatt*

        The notion that Africa is a single entity and ethnicity with a uniform culture is an ignorant and offensive trope.

        Reply ↓
    4. Jo*

      I agree. Culture doesn’t come into except maybe with the C-word.

      Like many here, I personally find it a vile word. But I’ve had friends in other cultures that perceive the word differently. Often an insult, yes. But – believe it or not – even as an endearment. To them it’s more akin to “bitch”, which might be said with vitriol, meant as a mild derogatory word, a slang substitute for “woman”, or jokingly with friends. “Come on, bitches, it’s time to party!”.

      Obviously, Fergus was using it in a derogatory fashion. But the word itself may not be quite as heinousness to him as it was to those hearing it.

      That aside, his actions were deplorable.

      Reply ↓
      1. Rebecca*

        Many of my friends use it as an endearment, and I have too.

        Much like ‘bitch’, context very much matters, and given that he was angry and obviously trying make the OP feel intimidated – the fact that the word is sometimes not used as an insult is irrelevant.

        If someone got angry and told me to F Off, I wouldn’t take “sometimes I also say that word when I stub my toe” as a reason not be reacting to the aggression.

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      2. Flor*

        Nah, I disagree with that. I come from a culture where it’s used more casually, but if a man is using it towards a woman while threatening to kill her, it’s just as bad as it is in the US. Context and intent matter, and if he doesn’t realise how heinous it is to use it in that context, that’s a him-problem, not at all cultural.

        Reply ↓
      3. RagingADHD*

        Anything said in conjunction with “I’m going to kill you, you [whatever]” is never an endearment.

        And, as with other offensive terms, what matters is how the person *hearing* it perceives it, not how the person using it meant it, or how other people in other situations meant it, or whether someone else who wasn’t even there at the time has decided they’re going to reclaim it, or (as with a recent letter), a marginalized subculture has become fashionable and someone thinks it’s cute to appropriate it, etc etc.

        There’s an awful lot of hateful language that gets handwaved away by people claiming “but I didn’t mean it like THAT!” or “But that’s not how it’s used in my culture!”

        Impact > intention.

        Reply ↓
  5. Zombeyonce*

    #1: The reason Fergus keeps trying to “make it right” is because he knows this can get him fired. It’s hard to imagine that behavior like this is limited to when he’s been drinking; drunkenness doesn’t make a person do something so outside of their natural behaviors that they’re essentially a different person. I wouldn’t trust him for a second, even in the office.

    I worry for LW if they don’t get HR involved right away. Fergus seems likely to begin harrassing them in the office on an only-slightly less offensive scale than they did outside of work, especially if LW won’t engage and let him “make it right,” whatever that means. How do you fix a death threat paired with racist and misogynist insults?

    Reply ↓
    1. Tiger Snake*

      In a different world, I would tell #1 to very, very loudly, in the lunch room so everyone can hear, accept the attempt to talk by saying “Fergus, you threatened to kill me. Multiple times. And you also told me how you were going to murder my family. How could you possibly ever make death threats okay?”

      Because y’know, I like to stir the pot, and the only response he could give to that was “it wasn’t multiple times, it was only once” – which is such a bad thing him to try and say in front of everyone.

      But yes, you’re right: this is Fergus realising his only chance is to make OP#1 shut up. And the problem is; like lovebombing, if it works once then you have just taught Fergus that he can always do it to OP#1. This needs to be with HR, and it needs to be with HR now.

      Reply ↓
      1. CeeDoo*

        I’m with you on the loudness. If someone is making me uncomfortable, I am more than willing to make them uncomfortable in return. On reddit, there is a sub “traumatize them back” and it fuels me.

        Reply ↓
    2. DJ Abbott*

      Yes, it’s all about him, wanting to protect his job and maybe make himself feel better.
      OP should do whatever is necessary to protect herself. I would start by letting everyone in her physical area know about this, so they can help protect her. If she’s in a situation where he could could actually hurt her, maybe go along with his making it right, and then still go to HR and the police. And do whatever else is necessary to protect herself and her family.

      Reply ↓
    4. Kiki is the Most*

      When I hear “make it right” it sounds like permission to behave like a fool…as long as you apologize after. Pretty sure no culture has that.

      Reply ↓
  6. Tiger Snake*

    #3 – You know how when you go to an interview, ideally, they should be asking you “tell me about a when you did _” questions? I feel like the time you start listing roles on your resume, is when you could also conceivably use them as an example in the interview.

    Reply ↓
    1. Competition*

      I only could see this to be listed as an accomplishment if selection to the council was based on specific knowledge of a topic (not because OP is the only person in the company with this specific knowledge) or certain work-related accomplishments (decreasing turnover, increasing sales) or if there was a difficult selection process (interviewing, case studies). Or to put it differently: just the fact to be on the council is only an accomplishment if some kind of competition was involved.

      Reply ↓
      1. Media Monkey*

        exactly. “as the company’s expert on llamas, i have been invited to join a council that makes decisions on how llamas should interact with alpacas” seems fine to include. “i was invited to join the Llama and alpaca council as i was the only one who applied and we haven’t done anything yet” probably won’t make you a better candidate.

        Reply ↓
      2. Antilles*

        I don’t think this is true. You don’t have to meet some bar of “difficult selection process” or qualifications to put it on your resume. It’s not like the interviewer is going to quiz you on how many candidates there were for the role, how qualified you were relative to other competitors, why you were picked, etc. OP might know she’s only there because nobody else in her role applied, but the interviewer won’t. They’ll just see that you’re on a Corporate Leadership Council and ask about what that entails, how you’re involved, what the council does, and what you’ve learned from it (which is a problem for OP since they haven’t met yet).
        My resume lists my former volunteer role being the Secretary for our state branch of our industry trade organization. Given that I’ve had nearly every interviewer bring it up in our interview, it clearly carries some cachet and relevance to them. My resume does not, however, mention that my primary qualifications for the role were (1) showing up to the meetings regularly, (2) asking if they needed help, and (3) being literally the only person who volunteered for the role. Nobody has ever asked how I got the role, they just ask about the role itself.

        Reply ↓
        1. Competition*

          I totally agree. But, as you said yourself, OP is not able to speak to any of this, as they haven’t even met yet. I think it has enough potential to create an awkward situation if the interviewer asks for details and LW has to correct them that they haven’t even met yet, so that I would leave it off, unless this competitive aspect comes to play.

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          1. Competition*

            I think it would be different for me if OP wanted to mention this as some type of “interest” and example for their wish to engage with certain topics or wanting to develop into this direction. I am hesitant on the “accomplishment” part.

            Reply ↓
        2. Beth*

          I think the point is, it’s worth putting on your resume once it’s meaningful in some way.

          If it was a difficult selection process and you won out because of your experience and skill–that’s meaningful. If someone asks about it, you can talk about how you’ve admired this organization for a long time, you’ve been working towards this for a while, building skills and experience to gain eligibility, you’re honored to be chosen and excited to dig in.

          If it wasn’t a difficult selection, but you’ve been there for a while and accomplished some goals–that’s meaningful too. You can talk about the work you’ve done, your ongoing dedication to the cause, the challenges you faced, how you worked through them to achieve your goals, all the normal interview stuff.

          If you just started, though, and have no accomplishments there, and also you were the only applicant so you getting the role doesn’t signal particularly strong candidacy…that’s harder. If anyone asks about it, you really won’t have much to say–it’s a dead end conversationally, it doesn’t speak to your skills or experience, you don’t have anything to brag about associated with it. That, for me, is a reason not to put it on your resume yet.

          Reply ↓
    2. Sloanicota*

      I could also see putting this in your cover letter … “my lifelong passion for crustaceans is what drove me to join the National Krill Council, which is charged with X and Y …” It’s only because resumes would ideally list what you’ve accomplished that it’s a bit hard to use it there, IMO.

      Reply ↓
  7. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

    1. Report him. He’s dangerous.

    I used to have a problem with booze and one thing I learnt (and helped me quit drinking) was that it brought all my worst inside thoughts out without filters. So anger at the world, a ridiculous amount of ‘poor me’ and random discussions about nuclear reactors.

    What it couldn’t bring out were thoughts that were not there – like racism or death threats. The only way he can ‘make this right’ is by accepting he was out of line, accepting any punishment for being that out of line and doing the work to make sure he never gets out of line again.

    Notice nowhere in that is an apology. Those are a low effort nice to have that’s only if the victim wants it. It’s not good to harass someone to listen to an apology that they don’t want to hear.

    And frankly, as a boss I want to know if any of my staff are being howling bigots and making threats to coworkers because the rest of the staff have a right to feel safe at work.

    Reply ↓
    1. OxfordBlue*

      You’ve hit the nail squarely on the head there. In my experience alcohol progressively dissolves the filters from the front of my mouth and I become very sarcastic and scornful. I do absolutely agree that alcohol does not introduce new thoughts or opinions and there exists ample evidence that it does not do this for other humans either.
      My only consolation is that I’m not one of those people who go around saying they really, really love everybody and insisting on hugging them.

      As a side note for all historical novelists, the plots where characters get others drunk to discover their basic instincts and also investigate among the servants strike me as being rooted in a clear eyed view of humanity.

      Reply ↓
  8. r..*

    LW1,

    whatever may come of the other things, once threats of violence are made it is HR time, no matter how drunk the guy is. Fergus needs to be grateful this only goes to HR and not to police, because in many countries Fergus Did A Crime (or perhaps a misdemeanor).

    Of course threats of violence made by drunk often don’t get reported to the police for various reasons, but in genral the question “is this something that could be reported to police because laws were broken?” is a useful proxy to “should I report to HR?”.

    Besides, I have known many people that may be similar to Fergus in my time. I very strongly suspect that Fergus *knows* he can, and often is, like this when he’s drunk. As such him being drunk is no excuse at all for him, because if he knows he turn into an obnoxious fool when drunk he needs to keep away from the booze; the decision to drink the first drink is always made sober.

    Reply ↓
    2. Sharon*

      I disagree. The time to report something to HR is when it is (or is likely to) affecting the work environment, NOT whether something is illegal. Yes, “I feel uncomfortable working with Fergus because he threatened to kill me” is “report to HR”.

      However, “I saw Fergus smoking a joint outside of work in a place where marijuana is illegal” or “Fergus cheats on his taxes” are not “report to HR” situations. “Fergus is coming to work high” or “Fergus isn’t doing our company’s taxes correctly” (or even “Fergus is responsible for doing our company’s taxes and is being investigated for tax fraud”) are.

      Reply ↓
      1. Strive to Excel*

        No rule of thumb is going to be perfect but “misdemeanors committed against fellow employees should be reported to HR” is a pretty good one.

        Reply ↓
  9. r..*

    LW2,

    I am not really sure this goes as far as being unethical, but it in my opinion *is* irresponsible from a risk management perspective.

    Yes, spreading the interactions around the staff reduces individual risk, but it increases the risk that more than one person contracts an infectious disease; this in turn increases the risk of a staffing shortage. Additionally, you are not islands. If you catch a disease you may spread it to your family, friends, and others; by maximizing the risk of multi-person outbreaks you maximize the risk of widespread infections.

    It is a classical game theory example where the individual optimum (higher pay, less personal risk) leads to a global minimum (highest risk to have disease clusters and staffing shortages).

    Honestly, if I were your manager, I probably would not care all that much about the 10 bucks; but I would care very much about the risks you create for the facility, your friends, and the sloppy reasoning that led to this lapse of judgement.

    Reply ↓
    1. WS*

      I mean, the correct answer here is appropriate hazard pay and protection for everyone involved. I’m hard put to blame the employees for taking advantage of slipshod conditions and $10 daily bonus.

      Reply ↓
    2. hedgewitch*

      I agree with you that this situation seems bad from a risk management perspective if this the 10 $ are meant to be hazard pay.

      If on the other hand the risk with proper PPE ist the same as the general risk of working in that workplace, the 10$ might be meant as nuisance pay for having to put on more elaborate PPE (I see something similar in clean room work – additional pay for working having to work with a respirator for instance). In that case I don’t see a problem with what’s going on here.

      Reply ↓
    3. Roland*

      If the facility has a problem with it then they need to set up a different structure, such as specifically assigning people do take more dangerous work, probably at a higher premium than 10 dollars a day if it’s always their responsibility. Otherwise management is saying “if you got exposed once, we expect you to keep exposing yourself voluntarily instead of letting others be exposed”. Bad management.

      Reply ↓
    4. MusicWithRocksIn*

      It seems like these interactions happen pretty frequently. Would it really make much of a difference if say, Janice did them all on Monday and Fergus did them all on Tuesday and Jill did most of them on Wednesday but was at lunch when one was needed and Jack did one that day? Instead of all four switching out on Monday? They are all probably going to have to some in a week. Unless you think one person should have all the exposure in a week.

      Reply ↓
    5. Dinwar*

      It’s the “You are not islands” part that makes me disagree with you. Most diseases are infectious before symptoms get bad enough to worry about; some, like Covid, are infectious before you have symptoms. So odds are good that if any of your staff get sick they all will.

      Further, relying on PPE for risk management is flat-out wrong. OSHA defines 4 levels of risk management. From best to worst are: Eliminate the risk, Engineering controls, Administrative controls, and PPE. Obviously eliminating the risk isn’t an option in a hospital, and engineering controls probably aren’t either. What’s happening here is an administrative control, one which has arisen from the employees, rather than being the product of a real risk assessment.

      If I were in charge and found out this was going on I’d want to do a serious risk assessment. Odds are what these employees are doing is a good idea–again, if one is exposed all are exposed, and it makes sense from an organizational standpoint to have plenty of people experienced with these things (people not used to dealing with hazards tend to make stupid choices). But honestly, this is something the administration needs to be doing and doing in depth.

      Reply ↓
  10. OP #1*

    OP from Letter #1 here – I ended up speaking with HR about the incident yesterday, which they said absolutely was an HR issue, and I have written up a statement of the events. My coworkers who were present are doing the same. HR and his manager will be taking it from here.

    A few comments on Fergus’ racial identity – I shared this because of the context involved – I am not African, I am American, and he and the men he offended are from the African continent. But the relevance stops there, as identities and cultures aside, he was repeatedly crossing a clear boundary they had set.

    Reply ↓
    1. Upside down Question Mark*

      I’m glad you reported it! If you had shared your experience on Reddit for example, everyone would be telling you to get a restraining order on the guy, bit Alison definitely is more measured and I think following HR should be fine. That being said my gut would look to see if this guy has any convictions in your present country or his home country because that outburst was just so specific and as Alison said, not likely to have been his first. Also, I would ask HR to ensure you don’t have to be around him, that they don’t try to force you into mediation with him, and do your best to make sure he can’t find out from your friends or through work where you live.

      Reply ↓
      1. Elsewise*

        Oh gosh, reddit loves to recommend restraining orders! I saw someone genuinely giving that advice (and saying that “the police” will DEFINITELY grant an ro) because her mother in law asked her if she wanted to have a baby shower twice and was a little insulting the second time.

        Reply ↓
        1. Daffy*

          The Supreme Court already ruled that police don’t have to enforce restraining orders at all if they don’t want to. And if you know anything about police, you know they don’t want to.

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    2. Thinking*

      Thanks for this comment, OP, we want HR to help you feel safe above all. Fergus’ behavior both Saturday and in the office is heinous. At some point he will become violent. Please update when this is resolved. ♡♡

      Reply ↓
      1. JSPA*

        Can we not assert that every person who drunkenly threatens violence, follows up with violence?

        Sure, it’s wise to behave as if it is likely, because it’s more than possible. In practical terms, he doesn’t get cut any slack.

        But inside our heads, we should be aware that there exist emotionally damaged people whose violent proclivities are completely verbal, and only manifest when they’re too drunk to stand without falling–let alone attack someone.

        There are dangerous people who are not outwardly horrible, and evidently horrible people who are not dangerous. We do ourselves a disservice if we forget either side of that equation.

        Reply ↓
        2. LizW*

          Sorry. Nope. I’m not playing that game. Spent too much time making “allowances” for bad behaviour already.

          Reply ↓
          1. JSPA*

            Which is why I said,
            ” In practical terms, he doesn’t get cut any slack.” That’s a synonym for, “no allowances.”

            But when we mistake what’s on the surface as being a perfect read of what’s inside, that’s also dangerous.

            it becomes far too easy to lose track of the other side of the equation: the frighteningly high number of successful attackers who are suave, kind, helpful, circumspect and socially appropriate…and thus have no “tells” at all.

            Reply ↓
          2. Alpacas Are Not Dairy Animals*

            It’s not an allowance. It’s a realistic part of threat assessment to recognize that not every threat is followed through.

            Reply ↓
          3. Pescadero*

            Admitting that not everyone who makes drunken threats inevitably is guaranteed to turn to violence is not making an allowance for bad behavior.

            It’s just understanding the old canard – “Absolute statements are always wrong”

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    3. Michigander*

      Thanks for the update, OP! I’m glad you chose to report him and that HR are taking it seriously.

      Reply ↓
    4. allathian*

      Thanks for the update. Sounds like your HR are taking this issue seriously, as it deserves to be. I hope the whole situation gets resolved quickly with Fergus out of your life for good. There’s a good chance of that if he gets fired effective immediately and the firing gets him deported as he’s in the country on a business trip.

      Reply ↓
    6. Analyst*

      OP1- for the record, neither you nor your co-workers were responsible for managing Fergus in public or getting him to stop harassing people. You were within your rights to walk away and let the natural consequences of his actions happen.

      Reply ↓
    7. Do You Hear The People Sing?*

      And the fact that he insulted and threatened you is culturally inappopriate everywhere.

      Glad you spoke to HR. Don’t feel bad if Fergus gets fired for behaving horribly.

      Stay safe.

      (As a side note, I’ve noticed a distinct coldness from my non-American acquaintances lately, even though they all know I wouldn’t spit on the man if he was on fire. It’s just a thing that’s happening.)

      Reply ↓
      1. Helewise*

        I’ve noticed this as well, which is understandable but disheartening for those of us trying really hard to stop all this.

        Reply ↓
        1. Michigander*

          Are you in the US? I’m an American in Scotland and haven’t noticed any change in behaviour towards me, but I’m sure there are differences in other countries or from non-US folks living in the US.

          Reply ↓
          1. SnackAttack*

            Same – I was abroad recently and when I said I was American, most people would just say “I’m sorry” and then continue to treat me the same. I did make it pretty clear I was anti-Trump, though.

            Reply ↓
        2. Artemesia*

          I’m about to travel internationally and am braced for this and don’t blame them. We have become monsters in the world.

          Reply ↓
          1. Hroethvitnir*

            You should blame them (us)! Most of the world has had a sour eye for America, World Police for a long time, but anyone with a functioning brain knows that this administration is far more impactful on the people in your country who didn’t vote for him than them. They SHOULD.

            (Obviously the international ramifications are real, but I’m not being threatened with being sent to a work camp for having a mental illness or being kidnapped for being an exchange student.)

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      2. SnackAttack*

        Interesting! I’ve actually noticed the opposite – my non-American colleagues and acquaintances act more pitifully towards me. I do feel like there is a sense of understanding for normal Americans who are stuck in this situation with no way to leave.

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    9. Observer*

      But the relevance stops there, as identities and cultures aside, he was repeatedly crossing a clear boundary they had set.

      I agree with you 100%

      It made sense to mention it in terms of what he did to start with. But the rest? Nah.

      He’s a massive problem. I hope that HR handles this appropriately. The fact that they agreed that this really is an HR problem makes me hopeful.

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    10. Pizza Rat*

      Thank you for updating us. I’m glad you went to HR. I think you handled everything as best you could at the time. Threats are no joke and I hope management and HR ensure the consequences are effective. If it were up to me, I would fire him, but we all know there are factors that might prevent that.

      Reply ↓
    11. Elbe*

      Thanks for the update!

      If HR does end up doing something (and I very much hope that they will) I think they should try to do it after he returns home. It would be great to have distance from him in case he blames you and your coworkers for the consequences of his own actions.

      Reply ↓
  11. CHRISTOPHER FRANKLIN*

    #2 is interesting for me. A long time ago, I worked in a research laboratory which used cultured human lymphocytes from an addicted population and controls from the hospital generally. They were paid a stipend of roughly $10.00 per blood draw. Our phlebotomist sadly passed away son my boss asked for volunteers to take his place. To keep myself useful, I became the primary phlebotomist (with a person to swing in if I wasn’t there), a doctor trained us (he was excellent and stressed how to draw people without hurting the patient), and we got vaccinated against the various hepatitis viruses. I was also a control (I was a great age and sex match, my cells cultured like crazy, and I turned out to have a genetic quirk that was the opposite of the experimental group). Anyway, in a place where people handle biohazards, everyone has to maintain universal precautions, so the risk is pretty much on everyone’s mind. If the place is well run, there is going to a myriad of people who will be handling the patient’s fluids, waste, etc… so the little stipend is trivial and it might be good to have more people cross trained.

    Reply ↓
  12. Audrey Puffins*

    #2 – given that $10 isn’t exactly going to cover any costs in a viral illness worst-case scenario, it’s hard to think of it as genuine hazard pay, and going by your numbers, it’s only costing your business up to $50 a week. If it were higher figures the ethics might be different (and people above have already made excellent points about risk minimisation means it would be better to have as few people as possible exposed), but if it’s only worth $50 a week to whoever set the figure, then I don’t think it’s worth particularly worrying about

    Reply ↓
    1. Nobby Nobbs*

      Yeah, on a monetary level ten bucks is chump change to an employer and a cheap meal or an expensive coffee to an employee, so any thought of “scamming” OP’s employer shouldn’t figure into their ethical considerations. That’s practically “why I poop on company time” money, assuming this isn’t a daily occurrence.

      Reply ↓
    2. Beth*

      Yeah, my only thought was “That is such a disgustingly tiny amount that it’s ridiculous for the company even to offer it as if it meant anything.”

      Reply ↓
    4. doreen*

      I don’t think “hazard pay” is generally meant to cover actual costs – I had a job where lots of people received “hazard pay” and it was essentially for working in an assignment where 50% of work time was spent in proximity to the population we served. To use a healthcare example, the clerk on a patient floor got hazard pay but one in the accounting office didn’t.

      Reply ↓
    5. sb51*

      It might be reasonable as “hassle pay”, though — if the company is providing adequate PPE and training, so there’s very little real risk, but people find dealing with the PPE annoying, the extra ten bucks might make a difference.

      Reply ↓
  13. ciciniko*

    #5: Although this was not necessarily the point of your question, I would ask you to consider how ethical it is to move to another country with an American income. I’m from a EU country that, using these programs, has seen a very dramatic rise in Americans moving here over the last five years, which has resulted in an untenable housing situation where foreigners who work digitally and have access to incomes that are suitable for their countries make it so that nationals working here (and receiving a much smaller income) are unable to compete when it comes to rents.

    While obviously this is not on them individually, I would urge you to do your research carefully about the country you choose to move to and how your income disparity might be perceived, especially if you are interested in learning the language and immersing yourself with locals (which you absolutely should!)

    Reply ↓
    1. E*

      Thanks for sharing this important perspective and highlighting the very real potential unintended consequences.

      There was a recent NYT article about Barcelona’s housing crisis that illustrates the general problem well (not specific to digital nomad visas, more Airbnb/ short term rentals generally)

      Reply ↓
      1. RhubarbCrumble*

        There is also a documentary by DW on youtube called “Housing – A Human right or big business?” that has a woman from Mexico talking about this as well.

        Reply ↓
        1. JSPA*

          On the other hand, depending how badly you need high speed internet (which you likely won’t find) there are towns in the countryside in parts of rural Italy, Spain, France that are desperately depopulated, and begging for people to move in so that the last bakery, last café, regional farmers’ market and semi-local post office will remain open. Some are as little as 45 minutes or an hour by car, bus or train+bicycle from the sorts of desirable tourist hot spots that ciciniko mentions. If you find a town with a number of boarded-up houses, and are willing to put in some money and elbow grease to make a borderline-habitable place safer and nicer, you’re (long term) stabilizing the population, not driving people out. (Even if it’s “just” the gutters, the electric box and the heating system.)

          Also note that domestic relocation can do the same thing; some rustbelt cities that went trendy suddenly had a high enough median income that low- income housing (which is pegged to local median income) became a subsidy for web-savvy young professionals, while waves of working class people ended up couch surfing or homeless.

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      2. LifebeforeCorona*

        My mother lived in a rural community less than 2 hours from a major city. During Covid there was an influx of people leaving the city for a more isolated living space. The side effect was rising house prices. Ironically she chose the location 40 years ago because it was so cheap. Housing prices rarely go down so when the newcomers left, the higher prices remained for the locals to deal with.

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        1. Rebecca*

          This happened to us. We were thisclose to being ready to buy a house in Bordeaux. During Covid, all the Parisians with the kind of job that paid really nice salaries and could be done from home decided to move to Bordeaux, and we were priced out.

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    2. Sun*

      Thank you for saying this. There are similar major issues with “digital nomads” across Asia. I’ve deleted a much longer comment that is probably not productive so I would also suggest to the OP to not overlook domestic relocation options as well.

      Reply ↓
      1. So Tired Of God's Specialest Princesses*

        Judging by the various executive orders and what happened to Abrego Garcia in Maryland, which is about as blue as a blue state gets, there is no domestic relocation in the United States that would make it a safe place for a brown, queer, or trans person to be. And I have little doubt we’ll soon be adding “AFAB” and “disabled” to that list, considering the text of Project 2025 and the health department director’s rhetoric about wellness camps.

        I understand and agree with the economic concerns you’re talking about. But “consider domestic relocation” strikes me as a bit of a cruel joke.

        Reply ↓
        1. JSPA*

          Voting patterns often tell you more about the percentage of the population that’s urban vs rural, or some other such divide. (There were six KKK chapters still active in MD in 1998, per the Washington Post.) There were KKK flyering episodes 7 years ago as close in to Baltimore as Elicott City.

          Outside of the cities, some suburbs and a few exurbs, Maryland does not (in my experience) have all that many areas with progressive tendencies (and that goes equally for the western reaches, North, South, and the Eastern shore). There actually are more consistently openminded regions elsewhere in the US.

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          1. So Tired Of God's Specialest Princesses*

            A place full of “open-minded” people won’t be able to protect brown people from being deported when ICE rolls in: just because somebody isn’t arrested immediately doesn’t mean they’re actually safe. They have to find a way, with limited notice or warning, not to be in that area again. Possibly ever. Nor will a place being full of “open-minded” people be able to protect trans people when trans healthcare is federally banned and the staggering zombified remnants of the FDA pull approval for HRT treatments. Being able to maybe get HRT treatment via off label usage or sub rosa appointments is not safety.

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            1. JSPA*

              Trans health care is not staggeringly well recognized and protected in the other countries being discussed, either. Nor are there no attacks on “browner” people. State religions… burkini bans… unequal justice… anti-vegan rulings (or pork products intentionally added to every dish at soup kitchens)… the politicaal viability of neo-fascists… I’m not talking about the US when mentioning any of that.

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        2. Joron Twiner*

          It’s incredibly naive, even dangerously ignorant, to assume that countries in Europe or Asia (or any popular destination for digital nomads) will be safer for Americans of color, queer people, disabled people, etc. All of these countries have their own minorities that are impacted by rich Americans with powerful passports moving in and displacing them, driving up local prices. And most of these countries don’t have current-US-level legal protections or social acceptance of things like LGBT rights.

          Considering the history that has led to the US having a powerful passport, while other countries create digital nomad visas to try to get some tax money from people who were quietly doing it anyway… it’s pretty disrespectful to suggest Americans should respond to the rise of fascism by moving to a country where the US literally funded fascists to support its own interests…

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    3. Don't You Call Me Lady*

      There was a letter a while back about this topic – someone was jealous/upset because their employee who was on a sabbatical from a white collar job had moved from a city to their smaller town.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        Yes, the “I resent my employee for being richer and more qualified than me” letter from January 24, 2023 (and update June 20, 2023) had some good discussions about this in the comments section.

        Reply ↓
        1. Don't You Call Me Lady*

          Hlao-roo, are you the one who always finds the links to these old threads? If so, appreciate your efforts!

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    4. Alexander Graham Yell*

      Yes, thank you for bringing this up – the flip side of “With my salary, we could live like kings” is “We’re making it harder for everybody around us to keep up with the increase in the cost of living we’re causing.” And the more people have the same thought about whatever location it is (Barcelona, Bali, etc.) the more locals are pushed out.

      Reply ↓
      1. Grasshopper Relocation LLC*

        There’s another flip side to that as well: depending on the area, they may actually not have enough people. I’ve looked into moving to the north of England, and a lot of the region has population decline. That obviously will be different in a tourist hotspot (and I’d be going there for a university degree/working locally, not as digital nomad).

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        1. Alexander Graham Yell*

          Yeah, there are definitely cities that need people and are basically actively recruiting! Immigration or temporary relocation isn’t necessarily a bad thing (I’m an immigrant myself), but there have been a lot of places suffering from an explosion of digital nomads that just don’t have the resources to support that AND maintain reasonable living standards for locals. (I’m thinking a lot about Portugal, mostly because I have friends from there who taught me about it, but Barcelona has made the news as well.)

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          2. allathian*

            Yeah, some touristy cities are planning to ban short-term rentals (in practice AirBnB) because it’s driving up rents to the point that the locals can’t afford to live there anymore.

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    1. E*

      Agree, seems not worth potential exposure, I was a bit surprised coworkers are eager to do this and hope they’re being compensated adequately more generally :(

      Reply ↓
    2. Don't You Call Me Lady*

      Absolutely – I assumed they were just using a number for an example, but if it’s reallly only $10 – yes that’s crazy

      Reply ↓
    3. Rogue Slime Mold*

      I think it suggests trying to interrupt the pattern “Someone has to do it, so we’ll assign it to the person of lowest rank or least inclined to push back” with an incentive to instead draw volunteers for the task. Which seems to have worked.

      Reply ↓
    4. Beth*

      It is NOT just you. I think it’s so low as to be offensive. It’s a “Risk your life for a nickel!” level of low.

      Reply ↓
    5. Czhorat*

      It makes the whole question feel weird to me; $10 is “sandwich at the deli” money. Maybe two lattes. This could be my privilege speaking, but I wouldn’t be bothered to game the system for a lousy ten bucks.

      The whole system feels poorly thought out; Ten dollars to transport an infectious person once, and .. still ten dollars to transport 6 of them?

      It reminds me in a way of the sick policy at the phone company when I worked there; each absence was a “step”, and after a number of steps you get disciplinary action. An absence was defined as “between one and five days out of the office”. So if you’re absent one day, it’s the same as absent five days. So WHENEVER someone called out sick, they’d stay out a week. Is that ethical? Within the spirit of the rule? Probably not. Was the rule designed to make it inevitable? Yes.

      I don’t support rules-lawyering and min/maxing the system, but badly written systems like this will foment this kind of behavior every time.

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    6. RIP Pillowfort*

      Yeah I am really hoping that it’s not $10 because my sister does get hazard pay at her hospital and it’s set at 1.5 or 2 times base pay rate.

      Reply ↓
    7. HR guy*

      If an employee did that task every work day, we’re talking about roughly $2,500 in pre-tax salary across a full year, which isn’t nothing. What’s weird is that they’re offering it in daily installments rather than as a monthly/annual stipend.

      Reply ↓
  15. Justin*

    I can’t say I expected the racist guy to tell OP that SHE was a “Trump American” and wouldn’t understand him wanting to apologize for being racist (before being sexist).

    Drunk logic I guess.

    Yes, obviously report in whatever fashion exists in your context.

    Reply ↓
    1. I should really pick a name*

      While there’s a lot of overlap between racists and trump supporters, being anti-trump doesn’t stop someone from being racist.

      Reply ↓
    3. Observer*

      Drunk logic I guess.

      Either that, or he’s just reaching for what he thinks will insult people without any logic at all.

      Reply ↓
  16. LifebeforeCorona*

    #1 You need to make a report to your HR. It’s possible that Fergus shared his workplace info with the group. They were clearly angry and if they heard the slurs and threats directed towards you they may contact your company out of concern for your safety. Being intoxicated is no excuse for his behaviour.

    Reply ↓
    1. Zona the Great*

      Sounds like she did per comment above. My only thing is if not have responded to the text apology and I wouldn’t have thanked him for it for sure.

      Reply ↓
      1. Pizza Rat*

        She acknowledged the apology, but did not accept it. There’s a difference. I don’t think replying that way was wrong.

        Reply ↓
      2. LifebeforeCorona*

        I’m up at the crack of dawn and try to get my words of wisdom out before the cold reality of another day sinks in. Actually, I do hope that the other people noted his work and reported him if only out of concern for his co-workers who had to wrangle an ugly drunk.

        Reply ↓
  17. GermanWeatherIsGreat*

    LW5 – I moved to Germany during the pandemic to start a masters, and used teaching English online to help support myself (I also had family support). A student visa, for you or your spouse, may be something to consider, as many programs are MUCH less expensive than in the US and frequently available in English. The caveat is that you’re restricted in how much you can work/earn while a student – they don’t want people to completely game the system. Applying for a job after graduation is usually easier though, and your student residence permit gives you a generous time period to job search afterwards, at least in Germany and I’m assuming also in the rest of the EU.

    On the subject of online English teaching – I had to get out of it due to changes in the market (side eye to the Chinese government…) and reduced demand after Covid. If you see it recommended as an easy or ideal digital nomad job…no. You could make a living off of it as a single young adult with no kids in a low cost-of-living country pre- and early-pandemic, but I wouldn’t count on that now. Married with kids, without prior teaching experience? Nopeity nope nope nope.

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    1. NoMoreFirstTimeCommenter*

      For studying in a different country, especially if you don’t speak the local language, you need to do your research really well. This topic has been a lot in the media in Finland (can’t speak for other countries). Basically the problem is that universities advertise how everything works so well in English, but it’s only true for the university world and getting customer service in English. Finding work without speaking good Finnish is a completely different story. The work available for someone who would only be able to work in English is basically: IT, university, and poorly paid unskilled labor in sketchy companies that see it as a plus that someone isn’t familiar with Finnish labor laws. Also the Finnish job market isn’t doing that well at the moment so locals also have trouble finding work. Foreign students expect something quite different and many leave after their studies.

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      1. GermanWeatherIsGreat*

        This is absolutely a valid point. Just in general, moving to a non-English-dominant country if that’s the only language you speak is a bad idea, even if it is common. I went in with intermediate German (enough to have basic conversations with bureaucrats) and that made all the difference. As for job markets…I feel like they suck everywhere right now. I guess everyone just has to not fall into the trap of big dreams and naïveté…

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    2. Mid*

      My sibling is currently doing their Master’s in Germany, and the school really wants students to be able to speak German and requires them to take German classes, even though all the course work is in English. Many jobs in Germany also want you to have at least conversational levels of German, and will really need a technical level of German. I’m sure it varies by industry and location of the school (well really, Berlin vs the rest of Germany.) But it’s something to keep in mind. Also, while pretty much every German can speak English, you also definitely lose out on some of the socializing if you can’t speak German (or really any local language when living in a country where you aren’t fluent with the primary language.)

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    3. Mid*

      Also a question for you, GermanWeatherisGreat: what did you study? I’m also considering moving to Germany for my graduate degree, and would love to chat with someone who isn’t in STEM (my sibling and everyone else I know in Germany is in STEM.)

      Reply ↓
      1. GermanWeatherIsGreat*

        I studied Linguistics, which happens to be particularly English-dominated. That helped.

        You’re also correct about language skills for jobs, although it’s a little different for friend groups, depending on your age and whether you mostly socialize with other university students. For jobs, I’d say you need about a b2 (conversational but not college level) to get interviews. “College level” fluency or C1 is necessary to study in German, but I don’t even have that and I’ve still managed to get hired.

        Outside of university life you absolutely need German, but universities are always a bit of a bubble, with internationals as well as locals eager to speak anything other than German. It’s enough to tide you over while you build your language skills, if you put some effort in.

        Feel free to ask any other questions!

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    4. Lady Lia*

      I second the nopes about pinning your hopes on teaching English in Europe. I had briefly considered the idea, then did some real-word reconnaissance while on vacation in Spain. I met with a couple of hiring directors at language schools who informed me they had never hired an American due to the tremendous amount of red tape. Prior to Brexit, they hired both Brits and Irish, but now they stuck with Irish because they were EU citizens and thus there was no need for a work permit. Glad I had the sense to inquire further before shelling out big bucks for a TEFL certification. While this doesn’t directly address a digital nomad visa, know that getting any sort of work permit in Europe is nearly impossible.

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    5. LW5*

      This is definitely something I’m going to look into- I have my masters, was accepted to a PhD program in the US but decided not to start due to my pregnancy (kid is now almost two), so a PhD is definitely something that’s been in the works for me. My husband and I both speak Spanish, so Spain was a thought for us

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      1. amoeba*

        Oh yeah, that could definitely work! We have loads of international PhD students in Europe, and in a lot of countries, it’s kind of easy to get a permanent visa/job once you’re done. (I’m in Switzerland and they’re stricter than most, but I still know of quite a few former PhD students from non-European countries who managed to stay and find an industry job after, even without any advanced language skills! We’re in STEM though, so I’m sure that helped.)

        Reply ↓
        1. GermanWeatherIsGreat*

          Honestly I’m not sure whether this is more because stem jobs use more English, or because Swiss people don’t want to deal with Germans’ inability to understand their “Hochdeutsch” at work XD A Swabian friend of mine used to work in chem lab in Switzerland, and told me they always spoke in English because the Germans flat out couldn’t understand the accents, even when Hochdeutsch was attempted.

          On the other hand, I had to stop looking at Swiss job postings for language positions because so many listed fluency in Schwiizerdütsch as a requirement, so it is definitely field-dependent.

          Reply ↓
      1. GermanWeatherIsGreat*

        In fall 2021, China banned foreign-located English teachers of Chinese children. This was previously a huge industry, and thousands of people lost their jobs practically and sometimes literally overnight. Obviously these people tried to continue working, this time with other student populations, which increased competition for everybody. I worked exclusively with adult highly-advanced students, a niche about as far away from school age children as you can get, and I watched my clients dry up within a month or two. At the same time, zoom fatigue plus the opening up of many countries from lockdown by that spring also contributed to a reduction in demand for online lessons. I decided to focus on my studies and my mental health so I stopped teaching altogether. I haven’t done any teaching since, so I can’t speak to the current market, but I doubt it’s returned to where it was when I started out.

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  18. Dogmomma*

    #2. I’ve never heard of hazard pay in health care. We treat all patients the same and everyone takes care of someone with infectious disease.. If you’re following infectious disease / OSHA guidelines re isolation and the ” garb” you need to be wearing, you should be fine. Retired RN and I worked through the AIDS crisis as well as the other stuff..TB, ORSA/ MRSA, VRE, anything that required isolation. You don’t pay people extra..ITS YOUR JOB.

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    1. RIP Pillowfort*

      It’s something that’s gotten more common in the last few years. I hadn’t seen it as much pre-COVID as I do now. I think because so many people left healthcare due to the conditions, good hospitals and employers realized they had to change up how they operated in order to retain.

      It’s not that they’re treating patients differently. My sister works in healthcare in a hospital setting and they do have a hazard pay they provide depending on the circumstances. Heck she got hazard pay for showing up and working a 3 day in a row shift during an ice storm. They even got her transportation to and from a hospital AND they booked her a hotel room to stay in close by, on top of the hazard pay.

      She gets hazard pay for working in isolation rooms. She spends more time in there than the nurses depending on the patient.

      The $10 had better be a higher number because that’s not what I’ve seen for hazard pay. It’s more like making holiday/time and a half pay typically.

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    2. M2*

      I disagree. So many people aren’t following guidelines and some are careless with potential infectious disease. Look at the uptick in MMR for example. Why should a medical person be exposed more and not get paid more because someone decided they did not want to get the vaccine?

      I pay more when my kid has to see the pediatrician after hours or Sundays ($20 more to be exact) so why shouldn’t people get more $ for infectious disease. $10 is not enough imho, should be more, and the patient should be paying that cost. My insurance wont cover any of that $20 weekend fee at all, so even if I hit my deductible, I will always be paying that fee. They do work with you if you’re low income and I believe the state healthcare for those low income pays that cost/the pediatricians office doesn’t charge when they see that insurance, but maybe that is wrong.

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      1. M2*

        Also, I was given more for hardship posts when I worked overseas. You got extra $, extra R&R which was dependent on your location. I think medical staff and teachers for that matter should get more $ for more hazardous conditions.

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    3. Dinwar*

      “If you’re following infectious disease / OSHA guidelines re isolation and the ” garb” you need to be wearing, you should be fine.”

      OSHA flat-out states that PPE is the final line of defense–it’s saying “We can’t protect you, we can only put a barrier up, good luck.” It’s strongly emphasized in every HAZWOPER class I’ve been in that if you’re wearing PPE it means you’re accepting a significant risk of exposure (the organization has gone through three levels of risk mitigation and failed at all three). The attitude that as long as you’re wearing PPE you’re fine kills people.

      Further, the attitude “IT’S YOUR JOB” is dismissive and wildly out of date. Companies are allowed to incentivize employees to do certain undesirable tasks. I was offered extra pay to do things like work late, or work with particularly annoying customers, or do extra work in the past. Sure, it can be annoying when the newbies don’t have to do the hard work I did, or get paid more for stuff than I did. But times change. They also don’t get hurt as much as people in my day did, and in many cases are more productive than I was because of the revisions to the procedures. And it doesn’t impact my paycheck anyway.

      Honestly, while you may not intend it, you come off as bitter and spiteful, especially with the capitalization. It doesn’t hurt you if someone else gets paid more. And acting as if their pay was an attack against you doesn’t help anyone.

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  19. Cochrane*

    LW1: I’ve worked in places that explicitly had the “rule of three” for gatherings outside the workplace. You and your work pal get drinks offhours? That’s your business. The moment a third party like Fergus joins in, it would be considered “a work event” and subject to all the norms and obligations that come with it.

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    1. Bird names*

      Huh, that’s an interesting approach. Do you know how these workplaces would have handled a similar conflict outside of work with only two people involved?

      Reply ↓
      2. a perfectly normal-sized space bird*

        Ok, so this is something that perplexes me. They make it sound like there was only ever one Sith lord and one apprentice in the galaxy at any given time, which I thought was odd given how vast the SW galaxy was. Especially since there were Sith popping up all over the place in the EU. Granted, I read a lot of the now-redacted expanded universe back when I was a kid (a ton of books and comics came out after the original trilogy re-release in the 90s) so the new in-canon expanded universe might have changed it.

        But even the Clone Wars series had enough Sith-adjacent characters that there being only one lord and one apprentice seems a bit silly. I mean, especially if you consider the Emperor as the top Sith lord. Plus there’s the whole thing with Darth Maul and his brother who believed themselves to be true Sith lords even after Maul was bisected. And since they believed they were following the true path while Sidious and Dooku had strayed, then there’s clearly schisms happening on the regular.

        It’s got to be extremely problematic for a two-person Sith hierarchy for the whole galaxy to be sustainable in the long term. It’s no wonder their empire wound up in shambles in less than 20 years when a teenager and some plucky friends exploited an engineering flaw. They could probably be more efficient in spreading evil across the galaxy and sustaining an evil supremacy if they delegated more. Maybe designate some Sith VPs and Sith Directors for different sector offices at least.

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        1. Nina*

          There’s only two Sith but which specific two dickheads (among the raft of awful people, and Ventress, and the Nightsisters if we’re counting them, and the Whills if we’re counting them – I totally am) are those two Sith is constantly up for debate and depends who you’re talking to and when.

          There, problem solved. /s

          Reply ↓
          1. a perfectly normal-sized space bird*

            Every Sith pair thinks they’re the best Sith pair and get really upset if another Sith pair beats them on their annual evil quota metrics. It probably gets really tense in the Sith breakroom when one of the losing pairs “forgets” to refill the coffee pot in protest.

            Wait, would a Sith breakroom have a Keurig with only the worst varieties, one coffee pot of perpetually burnt coffee, or two pots but no one labels which one is decaf?

            Reply ↓
        4. Ann O'Nemity*

          In the Star Wars universe, the Sith follow the Rule of Two:
          “Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it.” — Darth Bane

          At any time, there is only one *official* Sith Lord and one apprentice. Others may use the dark side (like Inquisitors or acolytes), but they aren’t true Sith.

          That said, Sith Lords often break their own rule, secretly training new apprentices or plotting replacements! Betrayal is built into the system and the apprentice is expected to one day overthrow the master.

          Reply ↓
    4. Emily Byrd Starr*

      And even if the three of you (including Fergus) had all been work friends going out for drinks, the death threats need to be reported.
      If Fergus emailed you, called you, or texted you outside of work hours and made death threats, he needs to be reported.
      If Fergus made death threats to you over social media during non-work hours, he needs to be reported.
      If Fergus quit working for your company and then made death threats, he needs to be reported (though probably to the police in this case).
      If Fergus had never worked for your company, but was someone who you knew from elsewhere and made death threats, he needs to be reported (ditt0).
      If Fergus had never worked for your company, but instead was a random person in the bar who you had never met before and made death threats, he needs to be reported (ditto).

      Reply ↓
    5. Antilles*

      That feels like an incredibly bizarre line to draw.
      Two guys grabbing drinks at the local bar and watching a basketball game is personal, but the instant a third employee walks in, it magically turns from a personal hang-out into a work event? We’re still at the bar, we’re still holding beers, we’re still right in the midst of our Jordan-vs-LeBron debate, but oh here comes a third co-worker so now it’s a work meeting?

      Reply ↓
      1. Silver Robin*

        not that it is a work meeting, but that it now falls under “informal work event” and expectations of behavior apply. Not sure where I fall on how reasonable that is, but it basically sounds like they wanted to institute a threshold for when HR had standing to get involved in conflicts that might arise when employees get together outside of work. Sounds like they took “two’s company, three’s a crowd” and ran with it.

        Reply ↓
  20. Bermy Beep Beep*

    #5: Here in Bermuda we’ve had a digital nomad program since Covid. I’m a long term expat American, married to a Bermudian, but know quite a few nomads, including several with kids. We are only 2 hours from the East Coast, speak English, and accept US$ (the Bermuda dollar is pegged to US$). Internet is very reliable. Downside is the high cost of living, and cost of private schools if you so choose.

    Reply ↓
    1. Grogu's Mom*

      It looks like the program may have shut down as of the end of February? It looks like it was an awesome program while it lasted!

      Reply ↓
  21. Dawn*

    LW2: If it’s only $10, you’re getting ripped off. They might not have to give you anything, but also, come on. $10 once a day won’t buy you a coffee anymore.

    Reply ↓
    1. HannahS*

      “It’s one banana, Michael, what could it cost? Ten dollars?”

      My guess is this person is either a care assistant or a porter, not an RN, and they may not make a lot more than minimum wage. Ten bucks a day averages to 50 bucks a week; that’s a lot to add to a grocery budget when you don’t make the kind of money where you buy a 10$ coffee every day.

      Reply ↓
      1. Dawn*

        I never said that it wasn’t, I’m just saying the company’s being crappy. Offering that and calling it “hazard pay”.

        It may or may not be a significant amount to the person earning it, but the healthcare company that is almost certainly raking in billions in profits is being stingy as hell, in the politest way I can put that.

        Reply ↓
  22. Touchofthe'Tism*

    LW1: Look at it this way, if Fergus had stalked you at your house that would be something to report to HR even though it happened outside of work. He threatened your life. You don’t know he won’t do it again or even act on it if he gets a few drinks in him. Don’t sit on this.

    Reply ↓
  23. MCMonkeybean*

    I would definitely not say letter 2 is unethical but I would definitely say that sounds like a very poorly thought out system and that if the people in charge are open to listening maybe someone could suggest they consider some changes to it that would minimize the risk more than spreading it around as much possible.

    Reply ↓
  24. Naomi*

    #5: Remote jobs can in theory be done from anywhere, but there are a few caveats you should keep in mind. One is that there are tax implications for your employer — you should make sure they’re okay with you working from abroad. Another is that you might still need to keep the same hours as your local-to-the-job coworkers, which can be inconvenient if you’ve crossed time zones.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alexander Graham Yell*

      I did US hours for 3 months while working in Europe (just until I wrapped up a contract that had started while I was in the US) and it was miserable. Working until midnight or later meant I had no time for a social life, I was exhausted, and I dropped so much weight because my eating schedule was thrown off that it actually started to concern the people that know me well. It was a sacrifice I made knowingly, but not one I’d make again.

      I know people who make it work, but none of them would choose it if they had other options.

      Reply ↓
      1. allathian*

        I’m in Finland and I know someone who happily works Pacific Time hours (10 hours behind us). But that’s because he has an inverted circadian rhythm and being able to get up at 5 pm and start work at 6 or 7 to quit at 3 or 4 am local time is perfect for him. It’s basically only an issue for medical appointments.

        He’s single and childfree, might go out on dates when he’s on vacation but so far hasn’t shown any interest in a long-term relationship. Just as well, because while he can save the partying for the weekend, maintaining a relationship with someone else in the same household who keeps more usual hours would be difficult to say the least.

        Reply ↓
    2. Dancing Otter*

      Let the company worry about their tax implications – have you looked at the situation for your own taxes?

      Reply ↓
      1. caryatid*

        The employer may make it a condition of employment to be based in the US if they don’t want to pay the cost of doing business with foreign country residents. My last job had a condition that you couldn’t be working out of the country for more than three months at a time. So it’s a real consideration and OP should make their employer aware if they’re going to do it since it could affect their employment.

        Reply ↓
  25. Dinwar*

    #2: I wouldn’t worry too much about the ethical issue. First, hazard pay is a normal thing in industry–I’ve been offered it for a few jobs. Second, as long as the level of care is maintained at a high level, it’s an internal decision on your part. As for the commodification of patients, I’ve known a lot of people in medicine. You folks are exposed to levels and types of work-related stress that most people can’t imagine. If how you deal with it is helping each other when you can, that’s not something I’m going to complain about.

    An argument can also be made that by spreading this work around you’re benefitting the patients. People get better at any task with practice, and stress from risk reduces with exposure, so the more people able to do the things necessary for these patients the better. If I’m a patient and you’re caring for me and you get called off for some reason, I kind of want to know that the person replacing you knows what they’re doing! Imagine what would happen if a few of you were quarantined and the only people left to do my procedure were ones that hadn’t done it, or hadn’t done it to people with these diseases, in years. Not a great outcome.

    Sounds like you’ve got a good team that helps each other and has naturally struck upon a way to use that to make yourselves more resilient. Sure, some patients may feel icky about it, but I’m hard-pressed to find any real objections to it. And if I’m managing you, that’s worth the extra $20 I’m spending.

    The part that makes me wonder about ethics is this part: “So every time we do, we can claim a $10 allowance — with a catch. We may only claim it once per day.”

    On the one hand, it makes some sense. If you’re exposed to the same hazards each time the second and third aren’t really significant–you’re being paid for the hazard, not the event, and the hazard is consistent. On the other, you are being potentially exposed multiple times and it would make sense to pay you per potential exposure. This is where the ethical issue is, though. If you were paid by exposure there would be no ethical issue at all. And it’s not an ethical issue on YOUR part, but on the organization’s part.

    Reply ↓
  26. HonorBox*

    OP1 – I applaud you for not engaging with Fergus and his continued attempts to apologize. HR needs to know about this because, even though it was not during work or a work-related event, you’re still coworkers. The racism, misogyny, and language are all problematic and things that should be reported. The threat to kill you and your husband are most definitely things that should be reported. And his continued attempts to speak to you and apologize need to be reported, too. Fergus didn’t just get drunk and act foolish. He didn’t throw up outside a bar. He didn’t just annoy other bar patrons. HR needs to hear that he said problematic things to colleagues and made very serious threats against you.

    If nothing else, this report gives HR notice that Fergus is a liability and provides evidence of a potential pattern if there are either past or future reports.

    But he should be fired. You can’t, drunkenly or not, threaten someone’s life.

    Reply ↓
  27. Observer*

    #1 – Racist drunk coworker

    Please report this to HR. Any repercussions are on him. Even if it tanks his career. But it won’t “tank his career” unless it’s part of a pattern and / or he refuses to deal with the fallout appropriately.

    For example, his attempts to “make it right”. To take the kindest possible interpretation, he is not concerned about the harm he has done but his standing and self-image. He apologized and you responded. He’s not happy with your response, so he’s pushing it. That’s not him caring about harm to anyone.

    So, in addition to reporting this to HR, I would strongly suggest telling him *in email* with HR cc’d that you do not want to discuss this anymore. Period. That decision is also final and not open to discussion. If the guy has even the slightest sense of how to behave at work, that will be the end of it for you. But if he pushes it in any way, that makes it an unequivocal workplace issue. And also proves unequivocally that this is not a “drunken mistake” but him being a deeply problematic person.

    Aside from the facts that what you do outside of work in general can come back to bite you and that harassing a coworker is something that the company should take seriously even if it happened outside work, this is an issue that the company needs to take seriously anyway. Because it is pretty clear that you (as a group) are identifiable with a little bit of effort as part of your employer. Which would mean that Fergus’ behavior is now a problem for the public perception of the company.

    Last but not least. The line “when someone shows you who they are believe them.” is very, very wise. Fergus has shown himself to be deeply racist, boundary crossing, and unable to manage his alcohol intake. (Keep in mind that when you are with a group that is together simply because they are your coworkers, you need to keep up you “worksona”. So he got drunk at what was essentially an information work meeting.) Any one of these is a problem. All three? Yeah, HR needs to know.

    Reply ↓
  28. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

    LW5 – a few considerations:
    – A lot of companies that are comfy with remote work are not comfy with it truly being from anywhere, even if they advertise it as such. (Like, they may be open to candidates who permanently live anywhere but they may not be open to candidates who have no permanent base.) Barriers could include tax implications, data privacy, time zones, etc. – or just a general perception that you’re trying to long-term travel and won’t be focused on work (unfair but it exists). In my experience folks who use digital nomad visas are usually working for themselves (and even that can be tricky with some clients); if you’re aiming for full-time employment as an FTE you will want to get really specific in your discussions at the offer stage to make sure everyone is on the same page. Don’t accept an offer thinking you’ll be able to figure out the specifics afterwards – have a very specific plan (like “I will stay in Portugal for the next 6 months and then move to Costa Rica” etc.) and negotiate on those terms. On the hiring side most companies aren’t going to want to do the work of figuring out options for you; they’ll want you to propose a plan that they can say yes or no to. Also make sure this plan is cleared with everyone who needs to clear it – a lot of hiring managers don’t have unilateral authority to say yes even when they think they do. And get it all in writing.
    – Most digital nomad visas are short-term — like 6 months to a year at most. It’s often difficult to extend your stay beyond that and in my experience overstays are very Not Well Received by immigration officials. So it’s worth thinking through whether you want to move that frequently, and whether that will be possible in an FTE arrangement with your company (all those logistics I mentioned above? Definitely harder if you plan to relocate to a new country every 6 months and are renegotiating the terms of your offer every time).
    – Many digital nomad visas have income requirements, though they vary widely. Can be an issue in a freelance context when your income fluctuates, especially if you’re just starting out as a freelancer.
    – Again very much depends on where, but logistics for life-stuff can be challenging in some countries if you’re on a short-term stay. You may have to pay higher housing costs to live out of a vacation rental or a hotel room – not everywhere will rent to folks on digital nomad visas or have short-term-friendly rental contracts (and some countries have much higher security deposits than we’re accustomed to in the US). Banking can be difficult if you need to open a local account, which you may have to do for utilities or to pay rent. Health insurance can be difficult (although there are now policies that will cover Americans living abroad that include short-term travel back to the US). Buying/selling a vehicle can be difficult if you need one. In some countries none of this is a problem at all; in other countries it can be a serious barrier. Whatever savings you think you need to make the move, double it. And you’ll need that savings every time you relocate.

    Basically these visas are not designed to give you stability or a pathway to a long-term stay in most cases. Which can totally work if you’re up for the lifestyle AND have an employment arrangement that’s compatible with it. I’ve personally found that employment arrangement rarely exists with full-time work through a company. My digital nomad experiences have always been during freelance stints, and I’ve never been able to do more than a 3-4 week stay as an FTE even with companies that are extremely flexible on remote work policies after I’ve been there for several years and as an already-permanently-remote US-based worker.

    As a freelancer – it can be great. 6-12 months is long enough to feel somewhat rooted in a local expat community if you make the effort to build those connections. You’ll get to travel and see some cool stuff, although the travel/life stuff ratio is usually radically less than people expect as “figuring out life stuff” becomes a substantial time suck. It’s really nice to travel in a way that’s not “pack your bags every 2-3 days and move,” and you get to know your base city well enough for it to feel like home. There are plenty of downsides – being in an expat bubble (which is really really hard to break out of), figuring out how to navigate the ethics, the fleeting nature of friendships, etc. – but for me the rewards have always been greater than the challenges.

    Good luck, I hope it all works out for you!

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  29. Don't You Call Me Lady*

    #4 is absolutely awful. I wonder if the “I don’t want to get us in trouble” phrasing is a little to soft though – this is blatantly illegal and that should be the main point.

    Reply ↓
    1. Aww, coffee, no*

      “I don’t want to get us in trouble” is a good place to start, though.
      If that doesn’t work then OP#4 can always move to “This is blatantly illegal”, but (assuming OP wants to keep the job, at least for now) the employer has a lot of the power here. So if OP can get a good result *and* make the employer think OP is a team player, so much the better.

      Reply ↓
    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      The “I don’t want to get us in trouble” is nice by assuming the company isn’t trying to violate the law. If the company pushes back, then they are trying to violate the law and need to be reported. It is possible (although not highly probable) that someone made this decision without realizing what they are doing.

      Reply ↓
  30. Parenthesis Guy*

    #4: I would encourage you to make sure that you print the email and make sure that you have a copy of it if you do intend to consider legal action. If they are in fact, asking for your agreement, that could put you in a stronger position then if they were just providing notice.

    You should also talk to a lawyer. This should be a relatively simple and straightforward case, but likely will turn into an extremely complicated one depending on where you live.

    Reply ↓
  31. Ess Ess*

    OP #1 – The fact that this man threatened your life and your husband’s life should be an automatic firing from the job no matter what country you are in. Even if HR doesn’t fire him (??) there should be an enforced restriction that he is not allowed to make any contact with you at work. I don’t care that he apologized… a stable person does not make threats to kill others, even when drunk.

    Reply ↓
    1. LeftBeforeDrunkPeople*

      One of my past employers had a drunk employee causing a fight during a company party. The person was fired first thing on Monday morning. Since plenty of people saw the fight, there was no shortage of witnesses. (I did not attend the party but the fight became *the* subject at the watercooler!) I’m not in the US either.

      OP #1’s situation is different by the fact that the meal was outside of the company. There were witnesses beside OP themselves. I hope HR will take actions up to termination.

      OP #1, please give us an update in a month.

      Reply ↓
  33. KristineB*

    The response to LW2 is great and should be seen by anyone in a client/patient/customer-facing role who is in a position to get a bonus like this.

    I will never forget the time I went to a branch of a giant bank to open an estate account when my mother passed, only to have to wait around while several people were free so that a certain person could open the account and get the credit/commission/whatever. They knew why I was there, and it was very clear what was happening. Needless to say I ended all business with them when I was able to, and won’t go back.

    These types of things can be just normal every day activities to the employee (I’ve been on that side myself) but your customer/patient may be in a very sensitive place. Not that there’s any indication that LW2 isn’t prioritizing patients – but I’m glad the response took this angle.

    Reply ↓
    1. A*

      I’m actually the opposite. If the end result is the same, the account is established, I would be happy somebody got a bonus for opening mine.

      Reply ↓
      1. Don't You Call Me Lady*

        Unless I had to wait for an hour or something like that I probably wouldn’t really care, but I can see the annoyance

        Reply ↓
      2. Observer*

        The problem here is not that someone got a bonus, but the wait time.

        That’s often a real burden for people. Especially when they are dealing with something that’s already making their life a bit harder.

        Reply ↓
    2. Hroethvitnir*

      Huh. While it’s certainly possible, and I believe you if you heard something that definitely confirmed it, having people specialise in specific types of accounts is very normal in a bank. Extremely annoying to have no thought to your time to follow what could be an internal rule but could just be “they’re better at it”, but not a given it’s about commission per se.

      Reply ↓
  34. CzechMate*

    LW 5 – There is a very, very good chance that the US employer may not want you to do this, even if it’s a remote job that can be “done anywhere” and even if you have a work visa for another country. There can be tax implications for working from a different city or state, let alone country. A friend of mine who works for a software company recently fired a 100% remote employee because they had been withholding taxes for the state of New Jersey and then later discovered he was actually living in North Carolina (that wasn’t the only reason for the firing, but it was a significant factor).

    There can also be security concerns if you transport confidential or sensitive material internationally. Example: I work at a university. A finance researcher wanted to travel to China to conduct research because the financial institutions there were unwilling/unable to send the data electronically. He had to ask five different departments for approval, and finally the project had to be nixed because the export control office determined that there was just too much risk for him to travel between China and the US with sensitive financial information on his laptop.

    That’s not even getting into the fact that each country/region has different laws about data privacy. My university, for example, requires everyone to use a VPN to access the institution’s system, but the VPN doesn’t work in some parts of the world and is actually unlawful in others.

    Given that–don’t assume that having a work visa in another country means you’re good to work for a US employer outside the US. You need to be EXTREMELY up front with the employer and clarify what is and is not allowed.

    Reply ↓
  35. Managamber*

    My husband and I moved to Barbados on a Digital Nomad visa last November. (We moved from Canada, but I understand the process is the same for other countries.)

    Here they call their visa the “Welcome Stamp.” Getting it wasn’t *hard*, but it took commitment. Bureaucracy moves glacially in the Caribbean. “Island time” is a real thing. We had to be extremely patient and persistent in following up with our application.

    The requirements for the Welcome Stamp are:
    – $50,000 USD income per year (per family application, I believe)
    – proof of independent health insurance
    – clean criminal record
    It’s good for one year, after which you can apply for renewal.

    Once we got our visas, it took a while to set up the infrastructure we needed to move. Getting a local bank account took at least three months due to bureaucracy and byzantine banking laws. (Including, at one point, our contact suddenly “forgetting” who we were and us having to start the process over from scratch.) Finding a place to rent was complicated because we brought our cats with us, and “companion pets” aren’t really a cultural thing in Barbados. But we eventually found a nice place that allowed cats for cheaper than we would rent in Canada.

    We picked Barbados for a few reasons.
    -culturally similar to Canada
    -not too far to travel (~10 hours for family to visit)
    -English-speaking
    -great climate
    -friendly people
    -safe location (very low crime rate compared to Edmonton where we’re from)

    We’ve been here for six months and absolutely love it. It did take a while to settle in, and there were a lot of cultural surprises that we had to adjust to. Standard of living is very different in the Caribbean. For example, we don’t have a dryer, we hang our laundry on a clothesline. Also, I had to learn to drive on the left!

    Overall, though, it’s been an amazing experience. We don’t have kids, but we know expats with kids who say the education system here is great and it was fairly straightforward to enroll their children.

    Then again, last night I found a centipede in my bed, so there are downsides!

    Reply ↓
  36. A*

    5: I would start with your current organization to see if there are any policies on digital nomad status. Then I would see an immigration attorney about the visa restrictions. If you clear those, then see an accountant or a tax lawyer about the tax implications.

    I think you need a lot of professionals who are looking at your specific situation.

    Reply ↓
  37. Felicia Fancybottoms*

    For #5, a lot of US companies don’t allow you to work outside of North America. I work for a global company with offices all over the World, but because of the division I work in, I’m only allowed to work in North America. Just know that just because a job is full time remote doesn’t mean you can work from anywhere!

    Reply ↓
    1. Lynn*

      I was going to say a similar thing. Unless the company you work for is already structured to have you work in a specific country, it is unlikely they will approve it. If they do approve it, do they give support to make sure you understand the tax requirements for both your home country and the new country? These rules are complex and specific to each country – sometimes down to the city.

      Our US based company only allows remote work in 5 States since having employees work from States changes the corporate tax requirements and costs.

      Reply ↓
      1. Felicia Fancybottoms*

        I think people think remote = work from ANYWHERE and it’s just not true. The security on my (company-issued) computer is so tight, I have to put in a ticket to get approval to work overseas on legitimate business trips, and even then, I have to provide a start and end date, and as soon as that end date hits, no more access to any of my files or email.

        Reply ↓
  38. Reality.Bites*

    The first letter makes me ponder if, in addition to the annual “Worst Boss” competition, there could be an annual “Worsest Fergus” for worst co-worker.

    Reply ↓
  39. AAMLurker*

    LW#1 – for me, and probably for many women, being called the c-word is a one and one situation. Add in a death threat and Fergus needs to be dead to you. If HR isn’t taking this seriously, ask them how they would continue to work with someone like that. Ask for scripts, notes, guides. Say things like “Please explain how I can work with someone who called me the c-word and threatened to kill me?”. Make Fergus their problem b/c he’s certainly not yours.

    Reply ↓
    1. Lynn*

      C-word use in the US is one n done for me too – but in some countries, it is the cultural equivalent of being called a pr*ck and is used as a typical type of shade rather than outrageious shade.
      I’m not defending it – just giving some possible context.

      Reply ↓
      1. bamcheeks*

        I said this in a thread last week about someone saying “serving c*nt”, but the thing about the way c*nt is used casually in the UK, Australia and NZ is that it’s rarely used by men attacking women. It’s used between men, and occasionally between women. A man who used it casually to his male friends would still be shocked by someone using it angrily at a woman.

        Reply ↓
        1. coffee*

          Yes, there is a bit more nuance of usage in Australia but a man using it as an insult against a woman will be/should be taken the same way it would be in America.

          Reply ↓
      2. Hroethvitnir*

        I am from Aotearoa, where we use the word relatively freely, but I will repeat until I run out of breath: a man calling a woman a c- as an insult or attack is still the strongest possible word even though it can also be used affectionately.

        Language is complicated! But there is no possible context that meaningfully changes calling someone a c- while threatening them.

        Reply ↓
  40. CeeBee*

    For the love of everything good PLEASE REPORT CRAPPY BEHAVIOUR – we are living the end result of having crappy beople never being checked and accumulating power.

    Reply ↓
  41. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

    LW5, you might want to check out the subreddit r/AmerExit – it’s for people emigrating from America in various ways and has a lot of resources.

    Reply ↓
  42. PhyllisB*

    #4 reminds me of a question I’ve had for years. When my son was in college he did a work study program working with an oil refinery. This has been 20 years ago so I may have the salary wrong, but I believe it was $13,000.00 for the semester. I’m guessing things didn’t go as well as they should because they went back and changed his payrate $13.00 an hour and clawed back all the overage.
    Being the kind of parent who doesn’t believe in interfering with her children’s work life I didn’t get involved. Besides, he didn’t tell me about it until it was all over with, so even if I wanted to I couldn’t have done anything even if I wanted to. Besides, he was over 18, so not sure I could have.
    I know that regular jobs can’t give a retroactive pay cut, but do work studies or internships have different rules? Obviously there’s nothing I can do about it now, but I’ve always wondered.

    Reply ↓
  43. MassMatt*

    Drunken racist coworker—I am wondering why the venue seemed to be absent in all this. They served this guy past the point where he became a belligerent drunk? And it’s up to you, his companions, to mind him, shut him off, coax him out of the place, etc while he insists on verbally assaulting and accosting other diners/guests? The venue should have given him one warning and tossed his ass out.

    I get how LW was stuck in a terrible situation but yikes, this is far beyond your pay grade!

    Reply ↓
  44. La Contessa*

    For moving and working abroad: Check out She Hit Refresh, shehitrefresh.com, for information about moving overseas. It’s marketed primarily to women, but has lots of useful information about how to do just what you’re thinking about. I know the founder, Cepee Tabibian, and she is a solid resource.

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  45. AF Vet*

    LW5 – One more thing to be aware of… because I found out while doing my taxes. If you keep a TOTAL of more than 10k in your foreign bank account, between savings, checking, investments, etc., you MUST report it on your taxes and jump through a bunch more loopholes. My couple hour time window to work on taxes? It’s now on Day 2. *sigh*

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